36000 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hello All More from ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin (available at Zolag) The next deeds of merit are related to Siila. S. : ¡Ä there are different degrees of defilements: they can be coarse, medium or subtle. Moreover, there are defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech or by the mind. Some people have eliminated coarse defilements, but they cannot eliminate the medium and the subtle defilements. Some people have eliminated defilements with regard to their bodily actions but not those with regard to their speech. Therefore, the Buddha, because of his incomparable compassion, showed the way to eradicate all degrees of defilements, those which are coarse, medium and subtle, the defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech and of the mind. He taught about each and all of them, in every detail. The Buddha did not teach that defilements are eradicated only by means of daana, generosity, the giving away of things to someone else. Ph: I am interested in the way defilements of the mind lead to those of speech and action. Of course this is seen in Dhammapada 1:1. Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36001 From: Egbert Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi RobK (and Phil), > I think calm grows deep in accordance with how much anatta is > understood. For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way. Thanks for your posts, as always. I wrote something recently about anatta which some may view as having being disdainful, and I would just like to clarify that a little. I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for a person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a detrimental thing. I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. If any of that comes across as being disdainful, then I have expressed myself rather poorly, and I ask people to accept that, despite how I express myself, I am not disdainful of teachings on conditionality (anatta). I owe Phil a reply on anatta being practice only, and this post seems a convenient and relevant vehicle. I hope you are reading this, Phil :-). There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. All day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is no different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful self. There may well be moments during such activity in which a little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a book is highly conjectural. The occurence of these revelations seems to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. Studying the Abhidhamma is no different to formal meditation if it is carried out purposefully. Of course, Arahants have no such problems. They do not conceive of any acts as being carried out by a self, as a self. They do not need to read the Abhidhamma, nor do they need to meditate. But until their bodies give way, the historical record suggests that meditate they do, if only to subtly enjoy the remainder of their days. Kind Regards Herman 36002 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Herman, Thanks for this excellent post. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for a > person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a > detrimental thing. I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha > taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote > that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. > > There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. > Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma > or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. All > day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am > doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is no > different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful > self. There may well be moments during such activity in which a > little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is > all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this > little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a > book is highly conjectural. The occurence of these revelations seems > to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while > reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. > +++++++++++ I think so. And we can study the Abhidhamma and even puff up the idea of self: , so proud of "knowing" there is no self. So, nothing is easy when it comes to developing proper understanding. The Abhidhamma is a medicine to fight the disease of self-view, but if could even worsen the disease if not applied properly. Robert 36003 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Hello All, I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular significance to them. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:05 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner > > Hi Andrew L (& All), > > We've discussed the value of studying 'Cetasikas' a little more formally > here and I think you asked for my suggestions on this. We've also had one > or two discussions on dana and sharing and I'm wondering if they can be > linked up here. > > What would be really helpful for the group (imho) would be if we could all > start together from the beginning (from the intro or even the preface). > Would you be willing to post a small section, say one or two paragraphs, > daily or every few days (excluding days you're too busy or not feeling up > to it)? If you would then (in the same post or better still in a separate > post), add any comments or brief qus, we'd all benefit further. > > If you're interested in this as a kind of dana, I'd suggest you use this > version at RobK's website as the Zolag ones are a little difficult to > access. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > > Some time back, thanks to Larry, we went through Abh in D.Life and then > the Satip. Sutta commentaries in this way. It may take a year or two, but > that doesn't matter. Larry and Nina are also currently working through > Vism - cX1V onwards (Understanding section) and expect it to be a lifetime > work! (They'd be very glad if you or anyone else chips in anytime too). > > Back to Cetasikas - to get an idea of a reasonable length and way ADL was > done, I've just picked out 2 random posts of Larry's for you to look at. I > think he dropped the numbering of paragraphs after a while - keeping it > simple and easy: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13028 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13047 > > He'd just press on regardless of whether there was feedback or not which > obviously varies at different times and I was and am extremely grateful to > him for this. > > Even if you just posted one a week, I'd be glad. I've had this book in > mind for a study corner for a long time. > > Let me know what you think. > > Nina, I and others will be glad to contribute, I know. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I can also help post the extracts if it helps, but would prefer it to > be someone else really;-) > =================== > 36004 From: Egbert Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:13pm Subject: Re: Karunadasa Hi Joop and all, Thanks for the link. I thoroughly enjoy reading the esaay. I have a question that you or others may wish to discuss further with me. > > Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective > Y. Karunadasa, > Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies > > The essay can now be found on: > http://www.indology.net/article5.html > http://www.orientalia.org/printout594.html > Quoted from the above: "What emerges from this Abhidhamma doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which (unlike idealism) recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself. " I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? Kind Regards Herman 36005 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:30pm Subject: Re: Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hello Phil, all, Here's one ... "Just so, monks, for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are coarse defilements: bad body-conduct, bad speech-conduct, bad mind- conduct. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings them to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are medium defilements: sensual thoughts, angry thoughts, cruel thoughts. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings these to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are fine defilements: thoughts of birth, thoughts of country, thoughts connected with reputation. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings them to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then there remain thoughts about the Nature of Things. There is concentration that is neither peaceful nor exalted nor tranquil nor arrived at unification, that is together with determinations, constrained, obstructed, confined. There comes a time, monks, when that mind is internally steadied, settled, unified, and concentrated. There is concentration that is peaceful, exalted, tranquil, and arrived at unification, that is without determinations, unconstrained, unobstructed, unconfined." A. III,100 (i, 254-5) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello All > > > > More from ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin (available at Zolag) > > > > The next deeds of merit are related to Siila. > > > > S. : ¡Ä there are different degrees of defilements: they can be coarse, > medium or subtle. Moreover, there are defilements by way of bodily actions, > by way of speech or by the mind. Some people have eliminated coarse > defilements, but they cannot eliminate the medium and the subtle > defilements. Some people have eliminated defilements with regard to their > bodily actions but not those with regard to their speech. Therefore, the > Buddha, because of his incomparable compassion, showed the way to eradicate > all degrees of defilements, those which are coarse, medium and subtle, the > defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech and of the mind. He > taught about each and all of them, in every detail. The Buddha did not teach > that defilements are eradicated only by means of daana, generosity, the > giving away of things to someone else. > > Ph: I am interested in the way defilements of the mind lead to those of > speech and action. Of course this is seen in Dhammapada 1:1. > > Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly > considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > > Phil 36006 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV 98 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, and according to its being divisible into that with two positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) The other kind is 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. 36007 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Robert and Herman - In a message dated 9/4/04 6:19:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Herman, > Thanks for this excellent post. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: But here comes Horrible Howard with a mixed review! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- In > > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > >>I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for > a > >person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a > >detrimental thing. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Misunderstanding of just about anything is always possible. But the Buddha never held back on the Dhamma. He declared himself, I believe, to not be a "closed-fist" teacher. Anatta is the core of his teaching. It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this differently from worldings. The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. -------------------------------------------------------- >I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha > > >taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote > >that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to hear, read, and think about is theory. Following the Buddha's cultivational path - sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na bhavana leads to the direct knowledge of the facts of anatta, and anicca, and dukkha, and that is the practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > >There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. > >Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma > >or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but extremely far from the whole of it. --------------------------------------------------------- >All > > >day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am > >doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is > no > >different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful > >self. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual activity, but only that. ------------------------------------------- >There may well be moments during such activity in which a > > >little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is > >all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this > >little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a > >book is highly conjectural. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. But - a cautionary, here: Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom. -------------------------------------------- >The occurence of these revelations > seems > >to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while > >reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. -------------------------------------------- Howard: True, beyond prediction but not beyond cultivation. And they may well occur - in fact will probably occur - during such ordinary circumstances as you mention and as symbolized in the Zen tradition by enlightenment upon hearing a pebble sharply strike a bamboo. --------------------------------------------- > >+++++++++++ > I think so. And we can study the Abhidhamma and even puff up the idea > of self: , so proud of "knowing" there is no self. So, nothing is > easy when it comes to developing proper understanding. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. ----------------------------------------------- The Abhidhamma > > is a medicine to fight the disease of self-view, but if could even > worsen the disease if not applied properly. > Robert > > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36008 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa Hi, Herman (and Joop and all) - In a message dated 9/4/04 6:23:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Joop and all, > > Thanks for the link. I thoroughly enjoy reading the esaay. I have a > question that you or others may wish to discuss further with me. > > > > >Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective > >Y. Karunadasa, > >Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies > > > >The essay can now be found on: > >http://www.indology.net/article5.html > >http://www.orientalia.org/printout594.html > > > > Quoted from the above: > "What emerges from this Abhidhamma doctrine of dhammas is a critical > realism, one which (unlike idealism) recognizes the distinctness of > the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes > between those types of entities that truly exist independently of > the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of > cognition itself. " > > I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that > truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive > at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor can I understand it. That such alleged "knowing" is indefensible I believe is, in fact, the basis for all phenomenalist positions. (I can understand inferring the existence of such entities - though I do not do so, but I do *not* understand a claim of knowledge in this regard.) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36009 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:08pm Subject: VismXIV 97, 98 review 97. (39) [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to (34)-(38) eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37 Its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. (40)-(41) Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, and according to its being divisible into that with two positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) The other kind is 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. 36010 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. There are ten cittas which contain only the seven universal cetasikas. They are the sense consciousness cittas; five (one for each of the senses) are the result of result of past wholesome deeds and are called kusala vipaka sense consciousness cittas and the other five are the result of past unwholesome deeds and are called akusala vipaka sense consciousness cittas. These cittas perform the basic functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. Appendix III (page 100 - 101) of my book provides a chart of which cetasikas are found in each citta. Metta, Rob M :-) 36011 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 7:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > wrote: > > What is this, like reflecting on dhammapada verses or the ten > > un/wholesome actions? Or do you also mean the greater discourses > like > > those on right view, and if so, do you meditate on them also or just > > try to put together a cognitive understanding as you read. > > > > This to me means understanding things like the sixfold sense base > and > > dependent origination on an intellectual or thinking level. Is that > > what you meant > ++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > > Yes. There are levels upon levels of panna (understanding). When we > think > about impermanence, for instance, that nothing lasts even for a > split second, that every moment is conditioned, this is a level > of panna. However it is not the same as direct understanding. > Another level is when we consider and see as realities are > arising and passing away. So we realize to a degree, as it is > happening, > that dhammas are changing rapidly and that there is no self > involved. Right, I have had this level of understanding of seeing the nature of objects after some meditation. I surmise it can be sustained if clear comprehension of the domain is applied. > We see that citta takes sound for an object and the > next moment colour and then concept and there is understanding > of how uncontrollable it is. I don't understand how this is acheived. I know that citta can only take one object at a time, but I haven't seen this as it actually is. I suppose it might come about by slowing things down and guarding the sense doors. > We might imagine this is now > direct understanding of rise and fall but I call this "thinking in > the present moment." > There is not yet penetration of the > visesa-lakkhana, characteristics of nama and rupa. Direct > awareness can come in between the moments of thinking or it can > come even without such thinking. > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. > According to the Visuddhimagga until the first stage of > vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is > not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a > firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about > by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by > repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. You are making this sound harder than it is. Anatta follows naturally from anicca, and once we see one of the three characteristics in reality we've fulfilled this criterion, no? > As > these levels of understanding develop there is more > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > that reduces self to one moment only. Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? I've had an experience where I saw anicca and anatta in the garbage cans in front of my house, they were shifting and changing. I failed to maintain this clear comprehension following that experience, though, but I do think that that was a fairly good degree of penetration or understanding into reality or whatever you want to call it. > > Now I have a slight pain around my eye, that is the concept, the > thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala > vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are > cittas that experience heat and hardness. So be mindful of nama and rupa as it were, or the four elements and painful feeling. I think I have to check my understanding of Abhidharma, Im not getting how a painful feeling can be unwholesome. Isnt it just a state of consciousness that must be? The painful feeling can be a result of unwholesomeness if that's why it's akusala vipaka I guess I can accept that but shouldn't 'vedana' be in there somewhere? > When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it > "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Usually we > believe that 'I' am > thinking, "I" am seeing, feeling, hearing. But the Dhamma helps to > break down the > idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'I' at a > new location at the eyedoor or eardoor or bodydoor or mindoor. So > uncontrollable and > temporary. And this is understanding at the level of pondering the > Dhamma. > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful feeling, no I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would more be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but this would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is geared to from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one rupa at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe and a neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or less time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. > > > > > > > Oooh. What are the imitation nanas anyway, how would one go about > > discerning whether they are going through the 'true' nanas or not. > > ++++++++++++ > It depends on many factors whether there will be discernment or not. > If there is attachment to the idea of being a sotapanna or one who > has attained stages of insight then it is likely that one will take > some strange experiences as signs of progress. > I was at a temple in thailand and a monk from another Asian country > was staying there. He was a vipassana instructor at a famous temple > in his country. But the teacher at this temple didn't believe in the > methods he followed and told him he had no insight at all and that he > was just fooling himself. (This was after several discussions). The > monk was brave enough to be able to give up his clinging to progress > and could start in the right way. Some can't. > > There is not a need to try to discern whether one has had a stage of > insight because it is panna which knows it. It will see clearly. > What is needed is to know the difference between panna and lobha > (clinging). If there is always clinging to the idea of having had > insight or clinging to getting it then that blocks actual panna from > arising. > It is not easy to have understanding of the dhamma arising now - but > that is all we need to know. When there is hoping that one has > attained this or that stage what is present? There is clinging > (lobha) - and that is the time to discern lobha. Oh boy. Now youve got me a bit discouraged that we have even more lobha than I thought to root out. I follow you on the part about mistaken insight, I have had these 'insight'-like experiences that I wouldn't take for stages of enlightenment, but if we are practising vipassana and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be well-into rooting out craving in earnest, and if that is so, have no clinging whatsoever? Or am I being too forward? Regards, AL > > Robertk 36012 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika dear Nina, Jon and others, I agree with Jon here, Nina. However, I probably read less of it than Jon, and some of, in fact a lot of it goes over my head, and I put that down to my inability to sit still long enuff to study it!!!! too easily distracted. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Nina > > Just to say that I find the detail from the Tika invaluable, and I very > much appreciate the time and effort you put into it, and the understanding > you bring to bear on these difficult areas. > > Of course, much of the material is far in advance of my direct experience, > but it is nevertheless useful to reflect upon. I hear many of the same > areas covered on the MP3 recordings that I listen to on my daily walks > (presently, the sobhana dhamma series). > > I hope you will be encouraged to continue with it to the extent that you > can find time, among your many current projects. I marvel at your output! > > Jon > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, (and Larry also), > ... > > N: I did not take up this detailed point about the measure of visible > > object > > which I did not understand in my Tiika transl, I just skipped it. I > > skipped > > large parts! I just saved it as a Q. for Bgk. > > I try to make choices in the Tiika, it is too long at times. But I would > > like your advice. > > With each Intro I try to explain the main points so that people do not > > get > > drowned in terms. > > I spend a lot of time with it, but if it is not useful I better stop. In > > fact, I am always short of time, I do not mind. > ... > > N: I try as best as I can not to forget the purpose, with whatever I am > > doing or writing, all day long. Also my translation of the Co. to > > Rahula, I > > just had this goal in mind. > > Sarah and Larry, are there too many details in my Tiika work? I need to > > know > > this. > > I talked to Lodewijk about it and he said that when he hears: only > > reality > > now, we have to know seeing now, it is not helpful for him. Azita: I remember Ven. Dhammadharo often bringing the conversation back to " is there seeing now" or "what is appearing now - is it nama or rupa". However, I see now that its not enuff just to hear those words and think that everything else will 'fall into place' as i have probably believed for years. There is sooooo much more to understand and doing nothing in case I do the wrong thing and go the wrong way is as useless as not even hearing the Dhamma. In fact it may be worse, taking the Dhamma the wrong way, like taking that poisonous snake by the tail. He always > > has > > trouble when he attends sessions in Bgk and hears this. It is very > > personal, > > different for each individual what is helpful. We agreed that there are > > many > > different kinds of people on a forum. People need to hear the Dhamma > > from > > different angles. He thinks that I should continue as I think good. > > Maybe I > > skip even more of the text, that saves time and energy. > > I try to always keep in mind: can it help people to understand realities > > now, as best as I can. But if you have time it will be appreciated if > > you > > also remind me and others about the goal of the study. You did this at > > the > > beginning of this Visuddhimagga thread. > > Nina. Yes, the goal of the study is different for different people I suppose, depending on their understanding. As it has been stated before, some people know the Tipitika thro, but are they wise regarding true knowledge of paramatta dhammas. I think even my goal changes at times, sometimes I just want to know it all and life would be easier :-) and sometimes I don't think I have a goal, at least not consciously, I just sit in front of this computor and read or pick up a book, or sometimes just sit and think about Dhamma. Keep up the enormously good, helpful work, Nina. You are an inspiration, truly. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36013 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, Sarah and others, I am interested in also studying 'Cetasikas'. Before I start posting I need to know if anything has been posted to date, and how should we do this - start from the beginning, I guess, eg with the Universals. Phil, are you reading Nina's 'Cetasikas' or are you studying something else? I have a copy of Nina's book so I could start from that. Sarah, I see you have made a suggestion below about not using the Zolag site. Is the one on RobK's site a different pub. or is it Nina's? Will wait for a reply before I post anything. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello All, > > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sarah abbott" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:05 PM > Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner > > > > > > Hi Andrew L (& All), > > > > We've discussed the value of studying 'Cetasikas' a little more formally > > here and I think you asked for my suggestions on this. We've also had one > > or two discussions on dana and sharing and I'm wondering if they can be > > linked up here. > > > > What would be really helpful for the group (imho) would be if we could all > > start together from the beginning (from the intro or even the preface). > > Would you be willing to post a small section, say one or two paragraphs, > > daily or every few days (excluding days you're too busy or not feeling up > > to it)? If you would then (in the same post or better still in a separate > > post), add any comments or brief qus, we'd all benefit further. > > > > If you're interested in this as a kind of dana, I'd suggest you use this > > version at RobK's website as the Zolag ones are a little difficult to > > access. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > > > > .....snip...... > > Back to Cetasikas - to get an idea of a reasonable length and way ADL was > > done, I've just picked out 2 random posts of Larry's for you to look at. I > > think he dropped the numbering of paragraphs after a while - keeping it > > simple and easy: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13028 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13047 > > > > He'd just press on regardless of whether there was feedback or not which > > obviously varies at different times and I was and am extremely grateful to > > him for this. > > > > Even if you just posted one a week, I'd be glad. I've had this book in > > mind for a study corner for a long time. > > > > Let me know what you think. > > > > Nina, I and others will be glad to contribute, I know. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > p.s I can also help post the extracts if it helps, but would prefer it to > > be someone else really;-) > > =================== 36014 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello All, > > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > Phil, I think I am going to try to read through "Abhidharma in Daily Life" first, so I will pose some questions here. Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? I especially like the section on karma and how beings are the bearers of their actions. This bit too: 'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending of the world.' I see these as being parallel to the noble truths, which need to be seen with proper wisdom. I say this because I've already seen the world in here, now I just need to see the other three :-) Moving onto ch4. In the different types of lobha-mula-cittas, which wrong views are there that accompany the cittas? Wrong views of self, or is it that there are no results of good or bad deeds? Self would seem the most likely wrong view because it can be produced just by mistakenly seeing self where it doesnt exist. I do not see how what a wrong view of the fruit & result of good and bad deeds has to do with a pleasant feeling rooted in attachment, maybe someone could illuminate that for me. That's all for now. peace, AL 36015 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > (clinging). If there is always clinging to the idea of having had > > insight or clinging to getting it then that blocks actual panna from > > arising. > > It is not easy to have understanding of the dhamma arising now - but > > that is all we need to know. When there is hoping that one has > > attained this or that stage what is present? There is clinging > > (lobha) - and that is the time to discern lobha. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Oh boy. Now youve got me a bit discouraged that we have even more > lobha than I thought to root out. I follow you on the part about > mistaken insight, I have had these 'insight'-like experiences that I > wouldn't take for stages of enlightenment, but if we are practising > vipassana and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be > well-into rooting out craving in earnest, and if that is so, have no > clinging whatsoever? Or am I being too forward? > > +++++++ Dear Andrew, I'll come back to the rest of your post later, you really consider well. Your reaction is much the same as mine when I started to grasp that it was all more sublime and harder than I had taken it for - especially as I already had the idea it was very hard! But slowly I was able to settle back and calm down and take it in a 'one moment at a time' way (to take off the famous line from alcoholics anonymous). What vipassana does initially (i.e maybe during this whole life)is to break down the view of self. Thus craving for sense pleasures may still be strong, one may still have intense emotions at times. (although they are seen in a more detached way because they are understood to be conditioned.) Even sotapannas like Ananda and Anathapindika cried sometimes, and the sotapanna Visakkha had many children and enjoyed rich clothing. We are not sotapanna so how much more likely are we to be swayed by the eight worldy ways, but we can learn even from our coarse reactions. This moment right now could be one of unpleasant feeling: if it is can we be perfectly content to understand unpleasant feeling? Or do we think we need some better object? Or if the present moment is one of craving do we think we must try to stop the craving, or are we instead ready to understand it? Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, salayanata vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi)"in what way is the Dhamma directly visible (sanditthiko Dhamma), immediate…to be personally experienced by the wise? Here, Upavana, having seen a form with the eye a bhikkhu experiences the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for the forms exists internally thus: `there is in me lust for forms internally.' Since that is so Upavana the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate…"" The sutta repeats for the other senses. This is very profound. The way of samatha is to overcome and supress the hindrances especially craving. The way of vipassana is to understand the present moment – even if that is craving. When craving or any hindrance is known as anatta, a little bit of ignorance is overcome: the conditioned nature of craving is seen. Robert 36016 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, Azita, AL, Nina & All, After I suggested that Al post the extracts, I realized this might be too much of a commitment for a relative newcomer to the list and also it would be easier for someone with a little more familiarity with it perhaps and also with a hard copy for easy reference. As I've been talking about it for sometime and as there is enough interest (i.e at least two or three people;-)), I'll start posting extracts beginning with the ‘Contents’ for anyone to have an overview first of where we're heading. When Azita, Nina, I and others head off for India in just over a month, perhaps Phil or AL can post the extracts during that period to keep the momentum and interest going in our absence. (I'll coordinate with you at the time and we can discuss about who continues after that). ***** Azita & All, I think I’ll use RobK’s site for the text simply because it’s easier for me to read it there and find my way around. Usually Nina does any updating of her texts on Zolag in the first instance, so there may be minor errors that haven’t been updated on other sites or errors in scanning, but in this case, I’d be surprised if we came across many. It’s exactly the same text on both sites. ***** Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ * cetfinal.txt * cetfinal.pdf * cetfinal.rtf * cetfinal.html ‘Cetasikas’,published 1999 published by zolag • London S: I’d like to point out a couple of things just once here before we start: a) Although the text was only published in 1999 by Alan Weller (Zolag)*, it was written by Nina over a period of years in the late 70s when she’d send out a chapter at a time to a few of us and we’d literally paste in corrections, before sets of ‘the Universals’, ‘the Particulars’ and so on were collated together over time, retyped by Pinna** (as I vaguely recall) and these were then distributed in quantities by Jon from Thailand, me in England and others elsewhere. I’m just mentioning this because someone once suggested on DSG that it was a recent e-book only copied from other e-books which was completely erroneous. b) I’d like to encourage anyone with interest in the text to consider purchasing the text or putting it on a ‘present list’. It has been one of our most treasured and well-used books and is beautifully laid out. (I believe it’s available from Amazon or Wisdom uk - if anyone else knows exactly where, pls share). Metta, Sarah ======== *Alan is an old school friend of mine whom I’ve known for well over 30 years. After I returned from trips to India and Sri Lanka he’d visit me in our Sussex garden with a very quick and keen interest in the Abhidhamma and lots and lots of questions. Later he made trips himself to join Nina and K.Sujin. He’s rather busy with young children and other commitments these days, but keeps promising to join us here soon. Hope so, Alan if you’re reading this. ‘ZOLAG’ stands for the initials of his family members. **Pinna is another friend that some of us have known for a very long time. Nina, you asked after her, but we didn’t see Pinna in Bangkok. You told me she’s working on the final editing of your excellent translation of K.Sujin’s book: ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’,which will be published soon in Bangkok. As you said, it is very detailed. It's also full of great reminders and truths extracted from the Texts. I know many people like you, RobK, MikeN and now Pinna have worked hard on preparing this text and will be very glad for any comments or questions on it anytime too. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm 36017 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 11:48pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner1-Contents Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Comments, questions and different views are very welcome;-) An overview of where we're heading at snail's pace. ****** Contents Preface Introduction Part I: The Universals Chapter 1 Contact (phassa) Chapter 2 Feeling (vedana) Chapter 3 Perception (sanna) Chapter 4 Volition (cetana) Chapter 5 Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death Chapter 6 Concentration (ekaggata) Chapter 7 Vitality (jivitindriya) and Attention (manasikara) Part II: The Particulars (Pakinnaka) Chapter 8 Applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicara) Chapter 9 Determination (adhimokkha) and Energy (viriya) Chapter 10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path Chapter 11 Enthusiasm (piti) Chapter 12 Zeal (chanda) Part III: Akusala Cetasikas Chapter 13 Introduction Chapter 14 Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness Chapter 15 Attachment (lobha) Chapter 16 Wrong View (ditthi) Chapter 17 Conceit (mana) Chapter 18 Aversion (dosa) Chapter 19 Envy (issa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) Chapter 20 Sloth (thina), Tropor (middha) and Doubt (vicikiccha) Chapter 21 Different Groups of Defilements Part I Chapter 22 Different Groups of Defilements Part II Chapter 23 Different Groups of Defilements Part III Part IV: Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana cetasikas) Chapter 24 Introduction Chapter 25 Confidence (saddha) Chapter 26 Mindfulness (sati) Chapter 27 Moral Shame and Fear of Blame (hiri and ottappa) Chapter 28 Non-Attachment (alobha) Chapter 29 Non-Aversion (adosa) Chapter 30 Equanimity (tatramajjhattata) Chapter 31 Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas Chapter 32 The Three Abstinences (virati-cetasikas) Chapter 33 Compassion (karuna) and Sympathetic Joy (mudita) Chapter 34 Understanding (panna) Chapter 35 The Stages of Insight Chapter 36 Wholesome Deeds Appendix and Glossary Appendix 1 Appendix to Chapter 2, Feelings Appendix 2 Appendix to Chapter 5 Appendix 3 Appendix to Chapter 8 Appendix 4 Appendix to Chapter 9 Appendix 5 Appendix to Chapter 11 Appendix 6 Appendix to Chapter 12 Appendix 7 Appendix to Chapter 20 Appendix 8 Appendix to Chapter 31 Appendix 9 The Stages of lnsight Glossary ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 36018 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:14am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Preface ******* This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. Defilements and good qualities are different types of cetasika. In this study I refer to my book Abhidhamma in Daily Life which deals with the basic points of the Abhidhamma. It is useful to read this book first in order to understand my study on cetasikas. The reader may wonder what the purpose is of the many Pali terms used in this book. In the course of his study he will see that the Pali terms are helpful for precision of understanding. I have used the Pali terms next to their English equivalents but the English terms often have a specific meaning in the context of Western psychology or philosophy. We should try to understand the correct meaning rendered by the Pali terms. In this study on cetasikas I have quoted from the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani ( Buddhist Psychological Ethics ). I also used Buddhaghosa's commentary to this book, the Atthasalini ( in English: The Expositor ) and his encyclopedia on Buddhism, the Visuddhimagga ( in English : The Path of Purification ). Buddhaghosa's commentaries date from the fifth century A.D. He edited in Sri Lanka old commentary works with utmost conscientiousness and translated them from Singhalese into Pali. The reader will be impressed by the discriminative, refined knowledge of all the details of the Buddha's teachings and by the vivid way he illustrates points of the teachings with examples. He continuously points to the goal: the development of insight in order to see realities as they are. I quoted from the suttas texts which deal with the development of all kinds of kusala, comprising the development of calm and the development of insight. These texts can encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. [preface to be continued] ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 36019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Hi Larry and Htoo, thank you for the suggestions. Not so easy what to do. Larry, you say: can post a paragraph and you can give a short clarification, then we can > move on.> I could then only say something about the Vis. para, and leave the tiika, right? Htoo, you make a suggestion about discussions and summarizing these, but, there have to be people having discussions first, right? Larry, you could post for now 98 and 99, and I can deal with these together. But I need some time to look at the Tiika for more info. The contents of 98 and 99 hang together, but they are quite long. There are also the numbers from the Table at the back, but not everybody is able to look them up. The solution is that I just repeat. When the reader just looks at these paras, it will all be rather confusing, about the feelings, mind-element, mind-consciousness element, twofold, threefold, eightfold. So I would like to unraffle it carefully, so that it becomes easier to read and more meaningful for him personally. Oct 11 until Nov 6 we are in India. You could continue posting if you like, only no info from me. I start to get worried since you want to go through the Vis. three times during your life! How can we do this then? I shall think things over more and maybe Sarah also has ideas. While reading the tiika I will think more. But does anyone wants to have the Pali Vis. ? I need it all for my reading and it is no trouble for me. Should I post the Vis. Pali for each para? Let us say, when nobody says anything it is no. I also think that for those who do not know Pali the Tiika has less meaning, since often there are word explanations of the words used in the Vis. This gets lost in the translation. Nina. op 04-09-2004 01:26 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > L: I would rather that you decide. There are too many factors that I am > not aware of. 36020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]Howard's typo. Hi Howard, no, no, do not think in this way!!! So long as we have not attained enlightenment we are fools. Today I thought of your point and it is really worth while to consider it. I write more later on, adding something to it. I am tired now, we had a long, long walk over the heather. Nina op 03-09-2004 20:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> I don't know which passages you are referring to Sarah. I'll just make >> the foolowing comments ... > ============================== > I was just wondering whether my typo "foolowing" made you think of > "walLOWING in FOOLishness"! ;-)) 36021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do Dear AL, op 01-09-2004 21:59 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: >> N: Let intellectual understanding grow naturally, depending on what >> interests you. There should not be an idea: now I do this, then I > will start >> to practise, there is so much self in the way, it really hinders.\ > > That's the thing. I'm not in a mode where I can put together an > understanding very easily. I'll read through something and "get" the > concepts but if I see a word down there and a concept up there, I'm > unable to put it together. Very tough, only on rare occasion am I > able to go through things and put together an understanding. N: Excellent. Seeing this is already a degree of understanding. Listening with respect, this means: considering and understanding what you hear. Recently I reflected on this more. You know, the listening has to be with kusala citta, but we all know that kusala citta is so rare. Many conditions are necessary for its arising. When the javana cittas are not intent on dana. sila or mental development, they are akusala cittas. Thus, mostly we think with akusala cittas. So, I know that many times I am listening, reading or studying, there are akusala cittas coming in between. We need to know this. You are already interested in the Dhamma and this is conditioned by past accumulations. You read and study and then confidence grows. This is most helpful for the arising of kusala citta. But at the same time it is of no use to cling to kusala and try to make it arise. A.L.:Same goes for Vism. I still want to get some kind of an understanding of > what I need to know for contemplation on consciousness so I can walk > this path, though. N: Shall we say an all round foundation knowledge of namas and rupas, not merely citta? This can be the basis of further development of understanding. A.L.So, let me know what you think is >>> necessary for contemplation of consciousness, taking into account of >>> the fact that I want to be mindful of *everything* going on in the >>> psycho-physical complex called Andrew, because 30 minutes of vipassana >>> a day will just not cut it. >> N: To be quite honest: no way. > Nina, yes way :) I've done it, ... (snipped) > OK, Nina, you are very adept at this, maybe you could give me some > idea on how the insight-knowledges arise. Do we have to be very > procedural in how we conduct our practise or do they arise naturally > with mindful observation of nama and rupa over time? N: We have to be patient and also persevere considering nama and rupa in daily life now. I am not adept at stages of insight, wrong address! Being procedural will not help at all. And I am also disinclined use the word observation, then it seems that there is a person who observes. It is not observing, but developing more understanding. Look at Rob K's post: before deeper levels can arise... For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory > about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way.> Nina. 36022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Hi Larry, op 04-09-2004 01:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > One of the main points I get out of this analysis of understanding is > that conceptually understanding impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and > not self is profitable, that is to say kusala, and furthers one on the > mundane path. N: Conceptual understanding of the three characteristics is kusala, because when understanding arises, it means that it accompanies kusala citta. But such moments are rare. All the time we are just speculating about concepts we have to realize that we often think with akusala. L: Furthermore, any characterization of experience that doesn't include these three general characteristics is merely perception. N: Remembrance of the three characteristics without understanding is not helpful for the development of the Path, a child could sum them up. I will not say it cannot be kusala citta. The child may have confidence to learn the Dhamma. Remember our Vis. and tiika about kusala citta without understanding. The Buddha taught the Dhamma so that people would have understanding, and not merely remember the terms. You say, I would like to go step by step and not start with the three general characteristics. How could we have any understanding of them if we do not know that it is the impermanence etc. of citta, cetasika and rupa that has to be understood. The characteristics are characteristics *of* dhammas appearing at this very moment. I have to remind myself of this also! Intellectual understanding of realities is important, and that means, as I see it, beginning with citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself now. We have to understand them first as nama and as rupa. Thus, when we consider more the sound now and begin to understand it as rupa,not the dog that is barking, not the traffic, I would not say that it is mere sañña. There is at least a beginning of pañña. But I realize more that this is a rare moment, since kusala citta is so rare compared with akusala citta. Since we have been talking about sañña and concepts, I think it useful to requote Sarah's post. There can be accumulation of past experiences, also thinking of concepts included, because each citta is succeeded by a following one. Thus, thinking of a concept in the past can be a natural supporting condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, for thinking now of a concept. This can be with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but kusala citta is rare. It is very helpful to remember that also sañña is a condiitoned reality, otherwise we attach so much importance to my remembrance, my thinking. Nina. Quotes: K.Sujin referred to the accumulation of concepts when sa~n~naa (memory/perception) conditions thinking to arise and think about specific concepts, such as when “we remember who’s who.....there is the accumulation of concept, more than just reality. Again she repeated that “everything is accumulated - for example concepts such as the idea about the Buddha....We remember any reality at all, even visible object....all arammana (objects) which have been experienced and condition the experience now... Again she stressed that all experiences have pakatupanissaya paccaya as a conditioning factor (unless conditioned by the other upanissaya paccaya (decisive support conditions). For example, when seeing experiences a visible object, it leads to lots of concepts because they have been experienced before. Sarah. ****** 36023 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Azita, op 04-09-2004 04:16 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > ....snip.... >> N: The cittas arising in the 5-door processes experience rupas, > sense >> objects. But the javanacittas that are not accompanied by pañña do > not know >> that the objects are rupas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Seeing sees > visible >> object but it does not know: this is visible object, a paramattha > dhamma. >> Sañña marks the object each moment so that it can be recognized and >> remembered. >> A: > This is clear to me, theoretically speaking - but I then wonder > why or how the thinking of so many concepts comes about. > When the object of thinking is concepts, are all these concepts > the manifestation of sanna? N: We should remember Sarah's post, see my answer to Larry, about natural strong dependence-condition. Such thinking of concepts is conditioned by former thinking, and of course sañña plays its part, since it accompanies each citta. >A:I understand that its not that simple, that there are other cittas > and cetasikas involved in 'thinking' as I currently know it, but it > seems sanna plays a big part. Is it the reason why sanna is a > khandha on its own? N: We cling so much to sañña, it blinds us, and then it prevents us to understand that dhammas are arising and falling away. All that we experience seems to last, and that is perversion of sañña, citta and wrong view. A. Sometimes 'I' want 'my sanna' to stop. There are things I don't > want to remember, and others I want , but its often the ones I don't > want that arise (sigh). N: We all have this. We cannot escape sañña. It shows that it is anatta. > .....snip..... A: Does the knowing of a nama or rupa precede the distinguishing of > kusala from akusala? For example, does panna know a nama from a rupa > before it knows kusala and akusala? Or once again, am I making it to > simple? N: This is a crucial point. Indeed, we cannot know precisely the characteristic of kusala as nama, of akusala as nama, before there is a very precise understanding of nama as nama and rupa as rupa, this is the first stage of insight. We only know roughly, in general, in a conceptual way what kusala and akusala are. We do not realize them as conditioned namas, we still take them for mine. That is not the way to really know them as they are. A. Sujin would say: we have to know first what dhamma, reality, is. But this is a point that needs a lot of explanation. Not easy to understand immediately. What is your opinion? Nina. 36024 From: Egbert Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi all, > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Preface > ******* > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta here. Thanks for putting up with me. Bye Herman 36025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hello Herman, (if you haven't signed out yet), Many of us, agreeing with the Arahats at the Buddhist Councils, regard all three baskets of the Tipitaka as the teachings of the Buddha. No sigh of relief at your going, mate - it was great having you back again for the last month or so - you'll be missed. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" 36026 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. .... S: We all have this common interest here. Can we discuss the perceived discrepancy or problem further? I think it would be helpful. There will be no sighs of relief if you leave instead -- at least not from anyone I know of!! I also have a couple of other threads with you which I was planning to get back on tomorrow when I have more time to do them justice. I'll wait to hear from you first, perhaps. Metta, Sarah p.s I don't think anyone is asking for agreement here. The list is for constructive discussion as stipulated only and this usually follows when different views are shared;-) ====== 36027 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa Hallo Herman, Howard and all > …Herman stated: > >I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that > >truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive > >at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? > ----------------------------------------------------- >Howard: >Nor can I understand it. That such alleged "knowing" is indefensible I >believe is, in fact, the basis for all phenomenalist positions. (I can >understand inferring the existence of such entities - though I do not do so, but I >do *not* understand a claim of knowledge in this regard.) ------------------------------------------------------ >With metta, >Howard Joop's reaction: I don't have THE answer but I can try because what Karunadasa said not really amazes me Some years ago I studied philosophy of knowledge (Popper, Kuhn etc.) and what I remember about that branch I will say that there are two answers: - Or the Buddha or arahants centuries after His paranibbana had omniscience and simply did know it; - Or the monks who composed the Abhidhamma stated it as a theory of reality (as today scientist has a theory of the Big Bang) and because there was so much empirical evidence that theit theory was right, after some time they thought that their "theory of reality" was reality itself, as a kind of shorthand. Perhaps it's not important but I prefer the second answer. In general: we don't have any "knowledge", only theories of realitity (and the first of those theories is the theory that reality does exist without me). Metta Joop 36028 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > ========================================== > > Preface > > ******* > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and > its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the > many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own > defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to > eradicate all defilements. > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and not anyone else ;-)) I am struggling to understand your objection to the passage above, specifically the implicit assertions that (a) intellectual study and understanding must precede direct knowledge, and (b) direct knowledge of defilements is part of vipassana. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. > > Bye > > Herman I've enjoyed having you around this time. Do consider a return soon. Jon PS I have some part prepared replies to earlier posts of yours that I hope to get off some time later today. 36029 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello Herman I hope you're still around! >If any of that comes across as being disdainful, then I have >expressed myself rather poorly, and I ask people to accept that, >despite how I express myself, I am not disdainful of teachings on >conditionality (anatta). >I owe Phil a reply on anatta being practice only, and this post >seems a convenient and relevant vehicle. I hope you are reading >this, Phil :-). There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. >Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma >or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. I think it might seem that I leapt on your comment denying the value of anatta-as-theory. I couldn't help but do that because I am feeling more and more confident about my belief that building intellectual knowledge of the Buddha's teaching can be revolutionary in itself, long before direct seeing/knowing/being or whatever gerund is used to get at that non-theoretical deep experience in practice. And I have the fledgling devotee's over-enthusiasm, I guess. Also, I may have remembered another DSG member who some 4 or 5 months ago denied that the Buddha taught anatta, or something like that. Sorry if I sounded over aggressive about it. I agree with you that "reading the Abhidhamma or a compendium therof is practice. It is what one is doing." Well-said. There is such patience involved, reading the same thing several times before it even begins to sink in. I always liked the way Thich Nhat Hahn urged people to stay open to Dhamma, like dry earth to softly falling rain. Well, the "dry" and the "softly" is my addition. It takes time to soak in. The latest confirmation for me that gaining a theoretical knowledge is of value comes from "Discourse of Manifold Elements" MNIII, 115, quoted by Nina in Abhidhamma in Daily Life p.185: "Monks, there is not fear, trouble, misfortune for the wise man. Wherefore, monks, thinking, 'investigating we will become wise', this is how you must train yourself, monks." When this had been said, the venerable Ananda spoke thus to the Lord: "What is the stage at which is suffices to say, revered sir: "Investigating, the monk is wise?" "Ananda, as soon as a monk is skilled in the elements and skilled in the (sense-) fields and skilled in conditioned genesis and skilled in the possible and the impossible, it is at this stage, Amanda, that it suffices to say 'Investigating, the monk is wise.'" "But revered sir, at what stage does it suffice to say, "The monk is skilled in the elements?" "There are these eighteen elements, Ananda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness;the element of ear, the elements of auditory consciousness.... .(and on for the other sense doors) When, Ananda, he *knows and sees* these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'Then monk is skilled in the elements.'" Please note. "Knows and sees" Theory, and something more direct perhaps? I dare say that this "skilled in..." would apply to "cetasikas" or "conditions" or any other category of Dhamma compendia To me, this sutta hints at various degrees of "skill" - starting with the ability to enumerate using one's intellectual grasp, and movng gradually to a deeper knowing. To me, this sutta says Study Abhidhamma. Where can we better understand ("know"?) elements or other compendia in a more explicit way, intellectually, theoretically? Now, does this lead to "see?" Only conditions and are accumulations will tell, I suppose. Diligence, but that arises in a conditioned way as well. (p.s if someone could tell me about the verbs in Pali that are used here for "know" and "see" I'd be very grateful.) When I met Robert K for a talk, I said that I thought that if one stayed open to the Dhamma, and discussed it with good Dhamma friends, understanding would inevitably arise. He suggested otherwise, referring to folks he had met in Bangkok who had come to Dhamma talks for many years but had no few signs of deepening understanding. (Forgive me for paraphrasing, Rob.) So the movement from theory to direct knowledge is up in the air. The least we can do is get that theoretical foundation. As for anatta, I'll say again that in this beginner's opinion study and discussion and reflection/contemplation related to the khandas will point directly to a valuable theoretical understanding of anatta. But the above actions are practice, as you said. Anyways, I hope you'll be back soon. If not, you'll be missed. Metta, Phil 36030 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Being a Westerner, I tend to assume sense-objects as being the five > classical senses. You are probably including mental objects as sense > objects, which I would agree with heartily. I read the Buddhist path of > renunciation going as far as renouncing the supports for consciousness. > > I think conventional seclusion acts as a support for a pleasant mental > abiding for those with reducing appetite for the world. I am sure that > it is a theoretically correct statement that once having reached a > degree of dispassion one is not likely to get reinfected to that level > of passion again, in any situation. But this process of acquiring > immunity from the world is a gradual one, and there is no benefit to > bathing in a pool of those contaminants to which one has developed > immunity. > > So why camp with the gypsies if one doesn't dance anymore :-) ? ... > I agree. I do not see the holy life as the only means to an end, but it > san be an end of the means :-) As I see it, the person who develops insight renounces attachments and craving in the sense of *outgrowing* them, much like a child outgrows his or her toys. That is to say, it's not necessarily a case of a deliberate or conscious giving up. Furthermore, the sequence and timing will be different for each individual depending on a number of factors. To my understanding, it is not part of the teaching that a comfortable lay life is in any sense an obstacle to the development of insight, since it is the degree of attachment to one's surroundings that is the crucial factor. A general lessening attachment doesn’t necessarily mean one will change one's lifestyle; and conversely a renunciate lifestyle is no proof of lack of clinging or wrong view. The homeless life is advantageous for those suited to (i.e., capable of) living it. It is not advantageous for everyone; in fact, it could well be disadvantageous for a person not suited to it (I think this is said in the suttas). Jon 36031 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:01am Subject: RE: [dsg]Dhammas only? Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon and anyone, > > Jon wrote: > > The focus of the teachings is not concepts but dhammas. > > ========== > > What category do paccaya/conditions/relations go in? Are they concepts > or dhammas? > > And what would you call anicca, anatta and dukkha? Concepts or dhammas? > > Is there no room for any other ontological states? These are good questions. Anicca/dukkha/anatta are characteristics (Pali: lakkhana) of dhammas. The characteristic of a dhamma becomes apparent gradually as direct understanding of the dhamma is developed. In the suttas it talks about the five aggregates (i.e., dhammas) being seen 'as they truly are, as anicca/dukkha/anatta". In other words, these characteristics are intrinsic aspects of dhammas. They are not fully understood (penetrated) until enlightenment is attained. A condition (Pali: paccaya) describes the relationship pertaining between 2 or more dhammas. Again, this is something that becomes more apparent as the direct understanding of different dhammas grows (but really only occurs, I believe, when insight is fairly well advanced). As for 'other ontological states', I couldn't say. All I know is that the Buddha claimed that he taught everything that was necessary for liberation (but that there was much more he knew that was not necessary to be known). I hope this answers your question. Jon 36032 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Ben --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: ... > Ben: Woah, missed the point completely, but thats okay. Being skeptical > of a > viewpoint does not necessitate rejececting that viewpoint. It means not > clinging to it as factual until it has been verified by your own > experience > (IMHO a much wiser way of dealing with things). In fact Jon, I would > venture > that many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views > of > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > hundred > years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma realists, > had > developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the quagmire of clinging > to > "realities." Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what the Buddha said. If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged against the texts themselves. ... > Ben: I thought I did a pretty good job in my last post, but alas, I was > mistaken. I am well aware of the vultures lying in wait for the answer > to > this one. No matter how I formulate the words to answer you, they are > still > empty. *You* have to add the meaning, which is peppered with your own > opinions and memories, and therefore these words you read and comprehend > are > never quite what I had in mind when I typed them. > > The question of what is the 'wisdom of the middle way' is not as > important > as the question of who is asking or who wants to know. But if you are > speaking for the group, then there are a lot of who's out there being > very > 'interested in' the answer to such a question. Therefore I say to all > the > who's: I'm not sure how the sutra quote you gave (which I have snipped) answers the question of your own view of the development of insight, and the importance of jhana to that. Most sutta passages are open to more than one interpretation). I would be interested to hear in your own words how you understand the middle way to have been taught. Jon 36033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > That formulation is closer to the way I see matters, though the > phrase > "the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object)" doesn't > quite > sit right with me. As I see it, there are mental operations called > "thoughts" > but better called "thinkings" that are nothing but fleeting events that > occur, and I do not think of there being a "consciousness" as one thing > that > apprehends a "thought" as another thing. I just countenance an > experiential event > that I call a "thought" which is neither subject nor object, but is just > a > passing event. That event *seems* to be a "thought OF something" - that > is, it > seems to point to, or reference, something. Often, that apparent > referencing is > pure illusion. In fact, it's probably so that *always* that referencing > is > illusory, because even when the "something" intended to be pointed to is > a > paramattha dhamma, the experience of "thinking of that dhamma" is never > the same as > the direct experiencing of the actual dhamma, so thinking never > references what > it is intended to reference. > > With metta, > Howard While the world may appear to us as a world of experiential events, the more important issue is whether that was the world as taught by the Buddha (our own views of the way things are are notoriously skewed). In this regard it seems to me that in his teachings on the five aggregates, the six sense bases and the elements the Buddha described a world or worlds where the so-called experiential event of seeing is in actuality an instance of the seeing-consciousness dhamma experiencing the visible-object dhamma as its object, and where the so-called experiential event of thinking is in actuality an instance of the thinking-consciousness dhamma experiencing concept as its object. The Buddha did not as I understand it teach a dhamma of the event of seeing or thinking. I may have mistaken what you say above (if so, my apologies), but I don't think the scenario you describe fits with the sutta references to the five aggregates, the six sense-bases and the elements. Jon 36034 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) Hello AL > Phil, > > I think I am going to try to read through "Abhidharma in Daily Life" > first, so I will pose some questions here. Ph: Get ready to have your socks rocked, amigo. ADL rules. May I also recommend the book that I read at the same time as ADL? It's Nina on the Perfections and it can be found here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I found that it was a very helpful companion book with ADL. Well, when I started ADL I had far less understanding of Abhidhamma elements/terminolgy than you already clearly have, so it was a bit overwhelming. The book on the Perfections, with a lot more daily life references, put the Abhidhamma terms in a comfortable context. That suited my accumulations - no reason it would yours. But I think of that term you used - "established in virtue" - and think of the Paramis, the Perfections. Although we know that in the absolute sense there are no people, we also know that there *are* people, and in the Perfections we find humanity "established in virtue" in a very inspiring way. Please do join in on the material from "Cetasikas" as it gets posted too. And sorry, I still owe you a reply in that other thread - you asked me to tell you more about my two insight experiences - but it won't be tonight. Some day, I hope. I need time to fabricate them! (haha) AL > Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his > hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only > experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of > other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? Ph: I'm not the person who should answer these kind of questions, but I wonder if the confusion arises from the thing that confused me too - sometimes citta is used to mean only consciousness, sometimes it is used to mean citta plus cetasikas. Because of this, Rob M uses the term "mental state" in his book and DSG posts to refer to the latter.. I would agree that if it is citta meaning only consiousness, it would seem surprising that the conductor's hand wouldn't be moved by it. AL P> I especially like the section on karma and how beings are the bearers > of their actions. Ph: Very liberating. I like the thing I found in the above book on the Perfections about how by remembering that others are owners of their kamma and not responding in anger we can pay off our debt of kamma as well. Metta, Phil 36035 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric I've been through your various posts to me in which you refer to SN 54:13, and I think you make two main points. I hope you won't mind if I try to summarise them and give a response to all together. Eric, I read you as saying: A. The teaching on anapanasati given in SN 54:13 (and in the other anapanasati suttas) is not specifically directed to monks who are leading a certain lifestyle and who are already practising anapanasati. B. Anapanasati is prescribed by the Buddha for all as the single factor that if developed will lead to the development of satipatthana. On the first point, I'd just like to draw your attention to the following passage from SN 54:13, namely: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; ... I see the monk described here as necessarily being a person of well developed samatha and satipatthana. On the second point, I think you may be giving too much emphasis to the reference to a single factor. Consider for example the following 'single factor' sutta from AN I (Ch XVI, 1-10; PTS Gradual Sayings Vol I p.27): "Monks, there is one thing which, if practised and made much of, conduces to downright revulsion and disgust, to ending, tranquillity, full comprehension, to perfect enlightenment, to Nibbaana. What is that one thing? It is calling to mind the Buddha. "[The same for] ... Dhamma ... the Order ... the moralities ... giving up ... the devas ... in-breathing and out-breathing ... death ... the bodily constituents ... tranquillity. This one thing conduces to Nibbaana." Note that here mindfulness of breathing is put on a par with 9 other subjects of samatha development. What I think the Buddha is saying in SN 54:13 and the other 'anapanasati' suttas is that a person who develops anapanasati can, by pursuing that same practice in a particular way (to be described in the sutta), also bring to perfection the development of satipatthana. Cheers Jon --- ericlonline wrote: > > Hey Jon, ... > Where is the advanced practitioner mentioned here? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > It says so here in the beginning of this Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to > completion. ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html > Well here when asked about 1 factor the Buddha prescribed > anapanasati. Not reading from texts, not hearing the dhamma, not > studying paramattha dhammas in the abhidhamma, etc. ONE FACTOR!! > Wow!, what an unqualified endorsement by the Buddha to Ananda! That > is good enough for me to start practicing it! ... > What is wrong with both? They can surely support > each other cant they? I mean ONE FACTOR is a pretty > good endorsement. Especially as it was not qualified > to whom the practitioner was in this sutta but just expounded > in terms of qualities to be developed. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > But there is no reference to skill or lifestyle in this sutta? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > Well maybe you like it better from the Buddha. > > "Yes, Ananda, there is one quality that, when developed & pursued,... > Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to > completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, > bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven > factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing > & release to completion. 36036 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hello all Thank you for launching this, Sarah. What a blessing it is to be able to discuss Dhamma with good friends, including the author whose books one is devouring. (I feel like a schoolboy again, with the Narnia series, and CS Lewis is in the house.) N >A detailed study of the many types >of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to >develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. Well, this gets at what we were discussing with Herman, about theory and practice. I have only begun to gain a book knowledge of cetasikas. The above is quite a promise! This "know" - it must have various degrees, moving from intellectual knowledge to direct experience. What would the Pali verbs used for the various degrees of this "know?" > The reader may wonder what the purpose is of the many Pali terms used > in this book. In the course of his study he will see that the Pali terms > are helpful for precision of understanding. I have used the Pali terms > next to their English equivalents but the English terms often have a > specific meaning in the context of Western psychology or philosophy. We > should try to understand the correct meaning rendered by the Pali terms. I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider using Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so many English translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope more Pali terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha have. But we know this will not happen, because the Buddha predicted that his teaching would disappear from the world. Resistance to Pali terminology - even amoung some Theravadins -is a sign of this happening, I suppose. Metta, Phil 36037 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/5/04 5:03:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi all, > > > > >Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > >========================================== > >Preface > >******* > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and > its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the > many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own > defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to > eradicate all defilements. > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. > > Bye > > Herman > ============================= I hope that by "here" you are referring to the Cetasika Study Corner rather than DSG. Your posting on DSG has been so worthwhile - so thought provoking and original - that from a selfish perspective I don't want to see you leave. I also don't want to see you leave from the perspective of personal friendship. BTW, it is not too much of a push, I think, to identify the khandhas of sankhara, vedana, and sa~n~na in the suttas with the cetasikas in abhidhamma. Also, in the suttas, besides using the khandhic breakdown for "sentient beings", the Buddha also provides breakdowns into a) 6 sense domains, b) 12 sense-door/sense-object pairs, and c) 18 sense-door/sense-object/sense-consciousness triples. So, there are numerous ways the Buddha analyzed the psychophysical personality of a non-arahant, and while the category of "cetasikas" is not discussed in the suttas, most of the individual operations that Abhidhamma calls cetasikas are discussed in the suttas in much detail including kusala vs akusala dichotomy, and emphasizing the interrelationships of cetasikas (especially in paticcasamupada) and their essential emptiness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36038 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/5/04 9:44:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > > That formulation is closer to the way I see matters, though the > >phrase > >"the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object)" doesn't > >quite > >sit right with me. As I see it, there are mental operations called > >"thoughts" > >but better called "thinkings" that are nothing but fleeting events that > >occur, and I do not think of there being a "consciousness" as one thing > >that > >apprehends a "thought" as another thing. I just countenance an > >experiential event > >that I call a "thought" which is neither subject nor object, but is just > >a > >passing event. That event *seems* to be a "thought OF something" - that > >is, it > >seems to point to, or reference, something. Often, that apparent > >referencing is > >pure illusion. In fact, it's probably so that *always* that referencing > >is > >illusory, because even when the "something" intended to be pointed to is > >a > >paramattha dhamma, the experience of "thinking of that dhamma" is never > >the same as > >the direct experiencing of the actual dhamma, so thinking never > >references what > >it is intended to reference. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > While the world may appear to us as a world of experiential events, the > more important issue is whether that was the world as taught by the Buddha > (our own views of the way things are are notoriously skewed). > > In this regard it seems to me that in his teachings on the five > aggregates, the six sense bases and the elements the Buddha described a > world or worlds where the so-called experiential event of seeing is in > actuality an instance of the seeing-consciousness dhamma experiencing the > visible-object dhamma as its object, and where the so-called experiential > event of thinking is in actuality an instance of the > thinking-consciousness dhamma experiencing concept as its object. The > Buddha did not as I understand it teach a dhamma of the event of seeing or > thinking. > > I may have mistaken what you say above (if so, my apologies), but I don't > think the scenario you describe fits with the sutta references to the five > aggregates, the six sense-bases and the elements. > > Jon > > ================================ The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In the scheme of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that apprehends an apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the relating of two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important suttas in clarifying this issue. Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the "world" of an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet somehow interacting "things" and "selves". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36039 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 9/5/04 12:58:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. > Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of > experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In > the scheme > of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a > subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that > apprehends an > apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the > relating of > two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, > and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. > > Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I > object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important > suttas > in clarifying this issue. > Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the > "world" of an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of > > non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet somehow > interacting "things" and "selves". ============================== In this regard, there is the following by Ven. ~Nanavira (who admittedly marched to a rather different drummer than most and who did not have the most auspicious of "end games"): _____________________ Consciousness (viññána) can be thought of as the presence of a phenomenon, which consists of náma and rúpa. Námarúpa and viññána together constitute the phenomenon 'in person' -- i.e. an experience (in German: Erlebnis). The phenomenon is the support (árammana -- see first reference in [c] below) of consciousness, and all consciousness is consciousness of something (viz, of a phenomenon). Just as there cannot be presence without something that is present, so there cannot be something without its being to that extent present -- thus viññána and námarúpa depend on each other (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA §17). 'To be' and 'to be present' are the same thing.[a] But note that 'being' as bhava, involves the existence of the (illusory) subject, and with cessation of the conceit (concept) '(I) am', asmimána, there is cessation of being, bhavanirodha. With the arahat, there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is presen t'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me', i.e. [what appears to be] the subject is present ['I am'], the object is present ['this is'], and the object concerns or 'belongs to' the subject [the object is 'for me' or 'mine'] -- see PHASSA & ATTÁ); and consciousness is then said to be anidassana, 'non-indicative' (i.e. not pointing to the presence of a 'subject '), or niruddha, 'ceased' (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA §22). ----------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36040 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:25am Subject: An Article on Dependent Origination Hi, all - The article at the following web site expresses a view of dependent origination, and of vi~n~nana in that context, that is very close to mine. Click here: AN INTRODUCTION TO PATICCA SAMUPPADA With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36041 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Article on Dependent Origination Hi again, all - In a message dated 9/5/04 2:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, all - > > The article at the following web site expresses a view of dependent > origination, and of vi~n~nana in that context, that is very close to mine. > > Click here: AN INTRODUCTION TO PATICCA SAMUPPADA > > With metta, > Howard > > ============================== Somehow the link didn't appear. Here it is again: www.bpf.org/tsangha/watts2-1.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Dear Jon and Azita, thanks for your kind words. However, I have to adept my study to my ability. I spent hours and hours merely on the Pali word by word translations and now I would rather make a choice and follow Larry's suggestions. A kind of Middle Way, you know. Nina. op 05-09-2004 04:14 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I agree with Jon here, Nina. However, I probably read less of it > than Jon, and some of, in fact a lot of it goes over my head, and I > put that down to my inability to sit still long enuff to study > it!!!! too easily distracted. 36043 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review, and intro review. Hi Larry, I review also part of my intro I wrote before. op 05-09-2004 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Vis. Text 97. (39) [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of > cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to > (34)-(38) eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive > visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] > corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37 Its proximate cause > is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. N: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** This is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu. One type is kusala vipaaka and one type is akusala vipaaka. Thus, three cittas are mind-element, mano-dhaatu, namely: the kiriyacitta which is the five-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of vipaakacittas which are receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, one being kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta. In this section and the following ones the Visuddhimagga deals first with kusala vipaaka. The receiving-consciousness is succeeded by investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta which may be kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with kusala vipaaka. Vis. text: (40)-(41) Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without > root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its > characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function > is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of > investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its > proximate cause is the heart-basis. N: Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** The santiira.na-citta that is kusala vipaaka is twofold: depending on whether the object is moderately pleasant or very pleasant it is respectively accompanied by indifferent feeling or pleasant feeling. This shall be explained further later on. The translator has a note to the Vis. text explaining that the function of receiving-consciousness is to receive visible data, and so on and that its manifestation is the state [of receiving]corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. He explains the term < tathaa bhaava> that is translated here as a state. Tathaabhaava means being of such nature, of such condition. The Expositor (p. 84) explains the term manifestation, recurring phenomenon, as mode of manifestation or effect. Manifestation can be effect or fruit. The function of receiving-consciousness is receiving and this is also its manifestation or effect. The santiira.na-citta experiences the five sense objects, but it can also experience six objects, and that is, other kinds of objects apart from the five sense objects. The reason is that at different moments this type of citta can perform different functions, as will be elaborated on in the next section. The Tiika mentions as functions of investigating-consciousness: investigating, retention, rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. The investigating-consciousness can also perform the function of retention after the javana-cittas. Moreover, the rebirth-consciousness may be ahetuka vipaakacitta, resultant without wholesome roots and in that case it is of the same type as the santiira.na-citta. The life-continuum and the dying-consciousness are the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness. (follows a short explanation of Vis. 98) Nina. 36044 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Hi Larry, first a short explanation, before giving more details later on: this is all about investigation-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, that has as function to investigate the sense-object that impinged on a sense-door. This is only a mere passing moment, thus we should not misunderstand the term investigating, it is not like invvestigating as used in conventional language. See below. op 05-09-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with > equanimity, N: Here the Vis. deals with the two types of investigating-consciousness that are kusala vipaakacitta, not yet with the type that is akusala vipaakacitta (and that is accompanied by indifferunt feeling). When the sense object is very pleasant investigating-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, when it is moderately pleasant by indifferent feeling. It all depends on kamma what type of vipaakacitta arises, nobody can control this. Text: and according to its being divisible into that with two > positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of > these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when > entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the > cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors > and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) N: The position is actually the function it can perform. This type does not only perform the function of investigating when it succeeds the receiving-consciousness (and this succeeded a sense-cognition such as seeing), it can at other moments also perform other functions. The meaning is that it is the same type of citta as the santiira.nacitta, and accompanied by the same kinds of cetasikas. Thus, after the javana-cittas it can perform the function of retention. This is also vipaakacitta, and it hangs on once more to the sense object that impinged on a sense-door. Only in the case of cittas of the sensuous plane and in the sensuous planes of existence kamma roduces retention consciousness. Thus not in the case of jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas, and not in the higher planes of existence. Those who are reborn there are have developed detachment from sense objects. Two positions, because here the Vis. deals with the santiira.na-citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling. Text: The other kind is > 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when > desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it > occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, > and death. N: The santiira.na-citta accompanied by equanimity can perform five functions. In addition to investigation and retention, it can perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. The last three cannot be performed by the santiira.na-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling. The last three functions are door freed or process freed, because these are not performed in a process of cittas that experience an object that impinges on one of the sense-doors. When a human is reborn with the vipaakacitta that is santira.na-citta, he is handicapped from birth and his capacities to develop understanding are very limited. This is conditioned by kamma. We can see that it is beyond control with what kind of vipaakacitta one is reborn. All bhavanga-cittas in that life are of the same type of citta. I will study more details of the Tiika and add relevant points. Nina. 36045 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Dear Sarah, I add: These texts can encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. Sometimes we (including myself) may get lost in details. But the purpose is understanding anatta, otherwise we keep on taking citta, cetasikas and rupas for mine or self. Thus, we can study details, and these are not easy to understand. But at the same time we should consider: all these realities appear now. A. Sujin also likes to return frequently to the three conditioned paramattha dhammas. What are they, what is the meaning. Or to the five khandhas. What are these precisely? We should all the time return to basics. As to the study of cetasikas, Larry and I will also come to that in due time with the Vis. , but repetitions do not matter. There will always be other angles. Nina. op 05-09-2004 10:14 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Buddhaghosa's commentaries date from the fifth century A.D. He edited > in Sri Lanka old commentary works with utmost conscientiousness and > translated them from Singhalese into Pali. The reader will be impressed by > the discriminative, refined knowledge of all the details of the Buddha's > teachings and by the vivid way he illustrates points of the teachings with > examples. He continuously points to the goal: the development of insight > in order to see realities as they are. I quoted from the suttas texts > which deal with the development of all kinds of kusala, comprising the > development of calm and the development of insight. These texts can > encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. 36046 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) Dear AL, op 05-09-2004 05:07 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his > hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only > experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of > other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? N: Citta can motivate motion of body parts and also speech. Citta can originate rupa. When you type a question on the computer, citta thinks and makes your fingers move. It is kusala citta or akusala citta. When you walk, citta causes this movement. The whole day. you could not do anything without citta that is accompanied by cetasikas. A: 'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of > ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very > fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim > the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the > making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending > of the world.' N: The world is the five khandhas. A: I see these as being parallel to the noble truths, which need to be > seen with proper wisdom. I say this because I've already seen the > world in here, now I just need to see the other three :-) N: Not easy to see the khandhas, nama and rupa now, as they are. A: In the different types of lobha-mula-cittas, which wrong views are > there that accompany the cittas? Wrong views of self, or is it that > there are no results of good or bad deeds? Self would seem the most > likely wrong view because it can be produced just by mistakenly seeing > self where it doesnt exist. N: Any kind of wrong view and there are many. Personality beliefe, sakkaya-ditthi conditions many other kinds of wrong view. AL: I do not see how what a wrong view of the > fruit & result of good and bad deeds has to do with a pleasant feeling > rooted in attachment, maybe someone could illuminate that for me. N: When there is wrong view there is attachment to that and it can also be with pleasant feeling. someone feels happy about his wrong view. Here is from Vis. XIV, 91 I repost what I wrote before in my Vis. Tiika series: The text refers to the ³Middle Length Sayings² no 45, ³Lesser Discourse on the Ways of Undertaking Dhamma². The Buddha explains about the undertaking of dhamma that is happiness in the present but results in suffering in the future: The Buddha explains that they will have an unhappy rebirth. The Tiika mentions that someone who with a perverted mind indulges in sense pleasures rejects other worlds, that is, an unhappy rebirth in a next life as the result of his misbehaviour. The ³Dhammasanga.ni² (§ 381) shows the danger of wrong view (opinion): The Expositor (II, p. 336) explains that it is like jungle because of the difficulty of getting out of it. It is ³like a wilderness infested by thieves and wild beasts, of sand, waterless, without food.² It states that wrong view is the wrong path: The Tiika also mentions that a person who indulges in wrong conduct with wrong view takes this wrong path for the way leading to heaven and salvation. Nina. 36047 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hi Phil, coarse defilements are the transgressions. Akusala kamma through body and speech. The Buddha speaks about those, and especially in the Vinaya. This helps us to see our own vices. Medium defilements: arise with the akusala citta, pariutthaana kilesas.. Subtle defilements: the latent tendencies, anusayas.. Also in the sutta we read about those. The details you find more in the commentaries. I translated from Thai: Nina. op 04-09-2004 23:43 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly > considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? 36048 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, op 05-09-2004 00:08 schreef plnao op plnao@j...:> > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. N: Seeing, hearing, etc. are accompanied only by the universals, they experience directly the appropriate sense object that impinges on the sense-door. They just see or hear, they do not need any more helpers to experience the object. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jatis but not all of them. Receiving-consciousness needs pakinnakas, such as applied and sustained thinking, it does not see, but it merely receives visible object. I may add that it is adamant to know what jaati a citta is: kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. The universals are very different when they arise with cittas of these jaatis, even though they are of the same type. It makes an enormous difference wehther feeling is vipaaka, akusala or kusala. Nina. 36049 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hallo Jon, Ben and all Ben: > many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views of > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > hundred years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma > realists, had developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the > quagmire of clinging to "realities." Jon: Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what the Buddha said. If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged against the texts themselves. Joop: I don't agree with that, Jon. It's a orthodox view on Theravada that is to defensive, not future- directed. The Tipitaka (I don't talk about the commentaries) is "strong" enough it to compare it with other texts. And it is healthy for the development for somebody conversed (or partly conversed) to Theravada to read other texts. And I think it's healthy for a "born" Theravadin too. I for example like to study Nagarjuna and read in the book of the (Sri Lankan born) Kalupahana that Nagarjuna is not a Mahayanist. And Nagarjuna talks too about "two truths". You better could have asked, and now I do, to Ben: What is the disadvantage of clinging to realities? Metta Joop 36050 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hello All, > Hallo Jon, Ben and all > > Ben: > > many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views > of > > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > > hundred years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma > > realists, had developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the > > quagmire of clinging to "realities." > > Jon: > Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the > views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and > commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what > the Buddha said. > If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and > commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how > those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the > end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged > against the texts themselves. > > Joop: I don't agree with that, Jon. > It's a orthodox view on Theravada that is to defensive, not future- > directed. > The Tipitaka (I don't talk about the commentaries) is "strong" enough > it to compare it with other texts. And it is healthy for the > development for somebody conversed (or partly conversed) to Theravada > to read other texts. And I think it's healthy for a "born" Theravadin > too. "Each religion has helped mankind. Paganism increased in man the light of beauty, the largeness and height of his life, his aim at a many-sided perfection; Christianity gave him some vision of divine love and charity; Buddhism has shown him a noble way to be wiser, gentler, purer; Judaism and Islam how to be religiously faithful in action and zealously devoted to God; Hinduism has opened to him the largest and profoundest spiritual possibilities. A great thing would be done if these God-visions could embrace and cast themselves into each other; but intellectual dogma and cult-egoism stand in the way." Sri Aurobindo 36051 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 3:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Article on Dependent Origination Hey Howard, As I read this, I thought it very familiar. Then I saw his references to Buddhadasa and then I knew why. :-) PEACE E > www.bpf.org/tsangha/watts2-1.html > > With metta, > Howard 36052 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review, and intro review. Hi all, Here is a repeat of Nina's intro to Vism.XIV 94, 95: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35461 Intro: Thus far the Visuddhimagga has dealt with kusala dhamma, all kusala cittas, and akusala dhamma, all akusala cittas. Now follows the explanation about the cittas that are indeterminate dhamma, avyaakata dhamma, neither kusala nor akusala. The Tiika explains that there are four dhammas that are avyaakata dhamma: resultant cittas (vipaakacittas), inoperative cittas (kiriyacittas), ruupa and nibbaana. But in this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the khandha of consciousness, viññaa.nakkhandha, and therefore it only explains about the cittas that are indeterminate: the resultant cittas (vipaakacittas), and the inoperative cittas (kiriyacittas). First vipaakacittas are summarized. These can be kusala vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma, or akusala vipaaka, the result of akusala kamma. Kusala vipaakacittas can be of all four planes of citta: of the sense sphere, of the fine-material sphere (ruupa-jhaana), of the immaterial sphere (aruupa-jhaana), and supramundane (lokuttara). Akusala vipaakacittas are only of the sense-sphere. As we have seen under the section of kusala citta (Tiika to Vis. XIV, 85), kusala kamma can produce as result: eight kinds of sahetukavipaakacittas, with roots,'which arise as rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta (life-continuum), dying-consciousness and during a process after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) as retention, tadaaramma.na cittas, if that process takes its complete course. Kusala kamma also produces eight kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas, without roots, which arise in a process of cittas. They are: the five kinds of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sapa.ticchana-citta) arising after the sense-cognition, and two types of investigation-consciousness (santiira.na-citta) that arise after the receiving-consciousness. Akusala kamma can produce seven kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas. It does not produce sahetuka vipaakacittas. We may take it for granted that we see and hear, but they are conditioned dhammas, produced by kamma. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness, and then throughout our life kamma produces sense-cognitions arising in processes. Nobody can prevent their arising or exert control over them. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals first with kusala vipaakacittas. The Tiika explains that sahetuka vipaakacittas are accompanied by the cetasikas that are roots, such as non-attachment, but that this does not mean that these roots are active, that they produce effects. These roots are merely results, they accompany vipaakacitta produced by kusala kamma with roots. When we read the texts about vipaakacittas it may seem that there is a mere summing up, but we should not forget that these cittas arise all the time, from birth to death. Seeing is ahetuka vipaakacitta and it may be the result of kusala kamma or of akusala kamma. It arises and falls away and then it is gone before we can find out whether it is kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. It is followed by receiving-consciousness sampa.ticchana-citta, which is also called mind element, mano-dhaatu. This citta does not see, it merely receives visible object and then it is succeeded by investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, which determines the object. The Tiika explains that these functions are not very prominent. They just follow the sense cognitions and perform their functions of receiving the object and determining it. The Expositor (II, p. 350) refers to the Dhammasanga.ni (§ 454) and explains about receiving-consciousness that is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu: We should not forget that it is an element, a dhamma devoid of self. We have heard the term element many times, but through insight the characteristics of dhammas can be directly known so that they are realized as elements, devoid of self. 36053 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > > > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of > awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. +++++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, > > As > > these levels of understanding develop there is more > > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > > that reduces self to one moment only. > > Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? > ++++++++++++++++== Dear Andrew, I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the moment. ++++++++= > ++++++. > > > Robert: Now I have a slight pain around my eye, that is the concept, the > > thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala > > vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are > > cittas that experience heat and hardness... ++++++++++++ > So be mindful of nama and rupa as it were, or the four elements and > painful feeling. I think I have to check my understanding of > Abhidharma, Im not getting how a painful feeling can be unwholesome. > Isnt it just a state of consciousness that must be? The painful > feeling can be a result of unwholesomeness if that's why it's akusala > vipaka I guess I can accept that but shouldn't 'vedana' be in there > somewhere? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, painful feeling is vedana and comes with the bodysense vipaka. As you say it is not unwholesome, but we refer to it as akusala vipaka as it was the result of prior unwholesome kamma. +++++++++++++ > > > When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it > > "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Usually we > > believe that 'I' am > > thinking, "I" am seeing, feeling, hearing. But the Dhamma helps to > > break down the > > idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'I' at a > > new location at the eyedoor or eardoor or bodydoor or mindoor. So > > uncontrollable and > > temporary. And this is understanding at the level of pondering the > > Dhamma. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful feeling, no > I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every > instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the > underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would more > be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," > "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to > identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but this > would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet > incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is geared to > from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are > mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one rupa > at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the > whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say > that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% > mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second > reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe and a > neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or less > time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. +++++++++++++++++++ I appreciate that you see mindfulnes is connected to understanding of the conditioned (anatta) nature of whatever element is object. You can check: When we try hard to be 100% mindful is it really with detachment (the right kind) or is there clinging coming in. If there is clinging it can be known and then one will be able to adjust and correct any wrong practice that slips in. RobertK 36054 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 8:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Sarah and Nina, Thanks for shining more light on this subject. I'm happy with the understanding that, while concepts are not real and cannot condition anything, experiences (cittas and cetasikas) of concepts can, and do, condition other experiences. Kind regards, Ken H > > So all experiences, i.e anything experienced, is accumulated. The > latent tendencies (asaya) are all pakatupanissaya, but there is only ever > one accumulation arising at a time. Of course, the conditioned state (the > paccayuppanna dhamma) always refers to a citta and cetasikas. > > With regard to the object condition as a concept, as Nina said, it's as > arammana (object) only. That's all. It conditions by way of sa~n~naa which > marks the object when it's experienced, according to one's accumulations > of thinking (cittas and cetasikas). > > We begin to see a little about the intricacy of conditions. There are so > many other conditions involved as well of course. > 36055 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Robert K, Herman and Howard, . . . > In a message dated 9/4/04 6:19:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for this excellent post. > > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > But here comes Horrible Howard with a mixed review! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- KH: And here comes Akusala Ken with his two cents worth! :-) ------------------ Howard: > Anatta is the core of his teaching. It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this differently from worldings. ------------------ KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not prescriptive,' I don't see arahants as `seeking to exercise control' at all - not even in their own, unique, way of understanding control. ----------------------------- Howard: > The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. > ------------------------------ KH: Also speaking conventionally; the Buddha understood the conditioned nature of dhammas. When he was `teaching' and `moving into the shade,' he understood those concepts, at all times (before, during and after) as referring to *uncontrolled* dhammas. ---------------- Howard: > Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to hear, read, and think about is theory. > ----------------- KH: I agree with that, Howard, but I would like you to explain how, in this context, a fact differs from a `description' of a fact. (This is a trick question :-) I am trying to get you to explain sabhava.) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: > Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but extremely far from the whole of it. -------------------------------------------------------- KH: To avoid confusion, could we accept the difference between theoretical understanding (pariyatti) and practice (patipatti) as it is made clear, I think, in the suttas? Hearing and studying the Dhamma - with wholesome intent - is pariyatti. Direct experience - with a degree of right understanding - of a paramattha dhamma is patipatti. (Direct experience - with fully developed right understanding - of a paramattha dhamma (conditioned or unconditioned) is pativedha (penetration of the Dhamma).) --------------------- Howard: > Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual activity, but only that. > --------------------- KH: Yes, but I don't know about "only." It is, after all, the first, [and entirely necessary] factor leading to enlightenment. --------------------- Howard: > Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom. > --------------------- KH: According to the definitions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, that paragraph should read, "Continued study, including hearing and intellectual contemplation, plus continued practice, including guarding the senses, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom." Ongoing mindfulness is not an option. Between moments of mindfulness (sati), there will inevitably be vipaka moments of (sight, sound, taste, smell and touch) cognition and bavangha and other cittas in which sati does not arise. As for `formal samatha and vipassana bhavana;' why add those to the list? The given steps leading to pativedha are pariyatti and patipatti. There is no mention of formalised patipatti. *** I think I agreed with everything else the three of you wrote. So it's back to you, Howard, if you don't mind, for a review of my review of your review of Robert's review of Herman's message. Kind regards, Ken H 36056 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/6/04 12:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > ---------------- > Howard: >Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to > hear, read, and think about is theory. > > ----------------- > > KH: I agree with that, Howard, but I would like you to explain how, > in this context, a fact differs from a `description' of a fact. > (This is a trick question :-) I am trying to get you to explain > sabhava.) > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What is stands for is a characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I mean the same. (On the other hand, the adjective 'atta' represents a property that holds of nothing, making it the direct opposite of a fact; it is a total fiction.) A description of a fact (or of a fiction) is a linguistic matter. A fact is an actual condition or characteristic, a fiction is a merely imagined one, and a description of either is speech. ----------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly > a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the > Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but > extremely far from the whole of it. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > KH: To avoid confusion, could we accept the difference between > theoretical understanding (pariyatti) and practice (patipatti) as it > is made clear, I think, in the suttas? Hearing and studying the > Dhamma - with wholesome intent - is pariyatti. Direct > experience - with a degree of right understanding - of a paramattha > dhamma is patipatti. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't accept this terminology. Theory is intellectual content of discourse, or the discourse itself. The study of it is an activity. The activity of studying Dhamma is an aspect of practice. Direct experience with right understanding is not practice - it is a consequence of practice. Practice is a willed, volitional activity, and insight cannot be willed. --------------------------------------------------------- > > (Direct experience - with fully developed right understanding - of a > paramattha dhamma (conditioned or unconditioned) is pativedha > (penetration of the Dhamma).) > > --------------------- > Howard: >Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual > activity, but only that. > > --------------------- > > KH: Yes, but I don't know about "only." It is, after all, the first, > [and entirely necessary] factor leading to enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: First - yes, necessary - yes, sole - no! It is not all there is to practice. ---------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > Howard: >Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued > practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding > the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and > engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the > Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it > to freedom. > > --------------------- > > KH: According to the definitions of pariyatti, patipatti and > pativedha, that paragraph should read, "Continued study, including > hearing and intellectual contemplation, plus continued practice, > including guarding the senses, will set up conditions that cultivate > the mind and lead it to freedom." ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A moot point, as I don't accept your definitions. :-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Ongoing mindfulness is not an option. Between moments of > mindfulness (sati), there will inevitably be vipaka moments of > (sight, sound, taste, smell and touch) cognition and bavangha and > other cittas in which sati does not arise. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By "ongoing mindfulness" I merely mean frequent, powerful, and evident mindfulness. ------------------------------------------------ > > As for `formal samatha and vipassana bhavana;' why add those to the > list? The given steps leading to pativedha are pariyatti and > patipatti. There is no mention of formalised patipatti. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- > > *** > I think I agreed with everything else the three of you wrote. So > it's back to you, Howard, if you don't mind, for a review of my > review of your review of Robert's review of Herman's message. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36057 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:38am Subject: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Tiika) Hi Howard (Agrios,Vism study corner & All), You wrote the following to Agrios and myself recently: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! > Just > experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just > what > is present and its being present. ..... More recently you added: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Speaking more specifically, my own direct observation is increasingly > that > experience, though usually seeming otherwise, is nondual, that > subject-object duality is > illusory, that there is no knowing subject nor known object, but merely > experience consisting of the presence of experiential content. ***** S: While you add various qualifications, I wonder whether you see any disparity with what you write or feel you experience and what we’ve been reading recently in the Visuddhimagga, with cross-references to suttas. In particular: 1) Visuddhimagga ch X1V, 82 as posted by Larry “82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)” ***** 2. Mi,292 is MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta “ ‘Consciousness, consciousness’ is said, friend. with reference to what is ‘consciousness’ said?” ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said. What does it cognize? It cognizes: ‘[This] pleasant’*; it cognizes: ‘[This is] painful’; it cognizes: ‘[This is] neither-painful-nor-pleasant.’ ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said.’” (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). ...... *in a footnote, the translators indicate that “The Pali construction, ‘sukhan ti pi vijaanaati’,indicates that the feeling is being treated as a direct object of consciousness rather than an effective tone of the experience.” ***** Howard, here the feelings are taken as objects of satipatthana. The same applies to all other realities/actualities as objects of consciousness with wisdom.There is no question in the texts of any self as being a subject that experiences or exists in any form. However, the function of a citta and its accompanying cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) is to experience its object. Without an object,by way of object condition, no citta or cetasikas can arise. ***** 2. Also posted by Larry recently and discussed further by him and Nina: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being supported by the eye and cognizing visible data. Its function is to have only visible data as its object. It is manifested as occupation with visible data. Its proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional mind-element that has visible data as its object. (35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing sounds, and so on. Their functions are to have only sounds, etc., as their [respective] objects. They are manifested as occupation with [respectively] sounds, and so on. Their proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional mind-element that has [respectively] sounds, etc., as its object. ***** S: The text continues to discuss other cittas in the sense door and mind door processes which also arises by various conditions, including object condition, experience their respective objects and then fall away instantly. It’s important to understand why and how vi~n~naa.na khandha (consciousness aggregate) is distinct from other khandhas and to understand the nature of cittas as experiencing their objects in order to develop detachment from any lingering idea of self experiencing or having any experience.Just conditioned dhammas as elaborated on by the Tiika extracts Nina posted. I’ll leave your other comments for now and see if you have any problem with these quotes and comments first. Metta, Sarah p.s My apologies for referring to your comments in passing without quoting them. ====== 36058 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:47am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner3-Preface(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Preface [continued] ******* Some people believe that the Abhidhamma, the teaching on ultimate realities, is not the original teaching of the Buddha. The Buddhist scriptures, the Tipitaka, consist of the Vinaya (book of Discipline for the monks), the Suttanta discourses) and the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma enumerates all realities and the different conditions for the phenomena which arise. In order to show that the different parts of the scriptures are one, that they are the Buddha's teaching, I quoted also from the suttas texts which deal with ultimate realities. There is also Abhidhamma in the suttas. In the suttas we read time and again that the Buddha spoke about ultimate realities appearing through the senses and through the mind-door. In order to understand the suttas some basic knowledge of the Abhidhamma is indispensable. As we study the Abhidhamma we will become more convinced that the Abhidhamma pertains to our daily life, that it teaches about the phenomena we can experience at this moment. As we continue with the study of the Abhidhamma we will be impressed by the depth of its teaching. No ordinary person could conceive such a detailed exposition of everything which is real, except an Enlightened One. The reader may find this book technical, but as he proceeds he will find that a detailed study of realities helps him to understand his daily life. I wish to express my deepest thankfulness to Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Bangkok, who greatly assisted me in understanding the Dhamma and its application in daily life. I based my study of cetasikas on the lectures she held in the Saket Temple in Bangkok. I also wish to express my appreciation to the "Dhamma Study and Propagation Foundation" ; to the sponsors of the printing of this edition, Asoka Jayasundera and family, Anura Perera and family and Laksham Perera and family; and to the publisher Alan Weller. With their help the publication of this book was possible. All the texts from which I quoted have been printed by the PaIi text Society1. I will now continue with a general introduction in order to help the reader to have more understanding of the nature of the cetasikas which accompany the different types of cittas. .......... 1 73 Lime Walk Headington, Oxford OX 37, 7AD ******* Metta, Sarah ====== 36059 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hi Phil & Nina, --- plnao wrote: > More from the Chapter on Correction of Views in ‘Deeds of Merit’ ... Phil, Many thanks for these extracts and all your comments which I appreciate a lot. .... > This reminds me of what I read yesterday in Nina’s series on > ‘Removal > of Distracting Thoughts’ <....> >In the case of sensual attraction, if the first method of > reflecting on the foulness of the body to remove the unwholesome thought > doesn’t work, the monk is encouraged to reflect on the disadvantages of > unwholesomeness. <...> ***** S: We mentioned this sutta and Nina’s helpful series briefly in Bangkok and K.Sujin added a few further comments when I asked a question about all the ‘shoulds’ and the final ‘teeth clenching’ in the sutta. I recalled that years ago when I raised the same sutta, I remembered she had stressed that one should develop satipatthana however one was reflecting or whatever action one was taking. This time, she stressed more than once: ‘Each has one’s own way’. Whatever is one’s way, develop sati(awareness). ‘It’s always one’s own way - if you happen to be that way’. In other words, if you happen to be one who clenches the teeth or reflects on the foulness of the body or the disadvantages of unwholesomeness or on metta, develop sati. She added: ‘Anyway,panna(understanding)is the most important thing, not just clenching teeth’ [or any other activity or reflection]. ‘He showed many ways to suppress akusala (unwholesomeness). If a person has the accumulations to do [this or] that, it’s OK.’ We wondered whether this sutta was particularly for bhikkhus, but she added that the Buddha ‘taught everything to everyone; not just bhikkhus.’ Nina, thank you again for your posts and the detailed commentary notes on this sutta. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll start adding any further points or queeries that arise from any of KS's comments in a book for India.We were close to cancelling when I was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. ======= 36060 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hello Sarah, and all > >In the case of sensual attraction, if the first method of > > reflecting on the foulness of the body to remove the unwholesome thought > > doesn't work, the monk is encouraged to reflect on the disadvantages of > > unwholesomeness. Ph: I am still thinking about this, so thanks for bringing it up. I found myself thinking of the foulness of the body to avoid attraction in a certain situation today, but realized that it was being done with aversion, and disgust, perhaps because I was feeling tired and a bit cranky and it was an unexpectedly hot and sticky day today. I'm sure when done skillfully, it would not be accompanied by dose the way it was today - well, obviously. > S: We mentioned this sutta and Nina's helpful series briefly in Bangkok > and K.Sujin added a few further comments when I asked a question about all > the 'shoulds' and the final 'teeth clenching' in the sutta. I recalled > that years ago when I raised the same sutta, I remembered she had stressed > that one should develop satipatthana however one was reflecting or > whatever action one was taking. > > This time, she stressed more than once: 'Each has one's own way'. Whatever > is one's way, develop sati(awareness). 'It's always one's own way - if you > happen to be that way'. Ph: Surely this "right way" will vary, if not day to day, maybe year to year. We are in flux, so the suitable remedy out of the many remedies the Buddha taught will be different day by day or year by year, I guess. I'm interested in the various suttas in which the Buddha goes through a series of remedies. "If this doesn't work, try this" kind of thing. Such a great bounty of healing, if you will, to be found in the Dhamma. I think of AN V 161, in which there is a series of methods for removing annoyances, and there is the sutta in question. And then there is Buddhaghosa's commentary in the IX 14-30 of Vis. in which he works through methods for dealing with resementment to the hostile person considered in Brahma-Viharas meditation. In AN V 161 for example ( Nanamoli Thera trans) there is no mention of trying them in any order. I haven't figured out yet whether the methods ion this sutta might be in order according to how advanced one must be, or according to how quickly they can be applied for temporary relief, or how powerful the annoyance is, or what: "Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu when it arises in him. What are the five? "Loving-kindness can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed: this is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Compassion can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Onlooking equanimity can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "The forgetting and ignoring of a person with whom you are annoyed can be practiced; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Ownership of deeds in a person with whom you are annoyed can be concentrated upon thus: 'This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.' This too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed in a bhikkhu when it arises in him." *** To me, the last is all that seems necessary, but perhaps that's because I have been spared dealing with hostile people these days. Isn't a basic right understanding of ownership of kamma enough to release our anger, at least on the surface? I am very interested in Brahma-Viharas, but I am dubious about using metta as a method of removing dosa, which it seems to be doing here, though I probably misunderstand. Would you, or anyone, know in what way the above sutta is being offered? Is it really " each has his own way" or is there some graduation according to skill level, etc. Perhaps if one is very advanced on the path, loving-kindness is more regularly arising, so can be used effectively and quickly to remove distractions without it being an escape from dosa, and the kind of reflection on ownership of deeds is for people like myself who are starting out on the path and use the intellect more? Or is it depending on the strength of the annoyance, or what? > p.s I'll start adding any further points or queries that arise from any > of KS's comments in a book for India.We were close to canceling when I > was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. Ph: I didn't know you were ill. I hope you're feeling better now. And I hope Jon's back isn't acting up. Please record a few talks in India. I would love to hear them. Metta, Phil p.s thank you also Christine and Nina for your helpful responses to a question about degrees of defilements that I asked in this thread. Very helpful. 36061 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 8:19am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Dear Phil, I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using Pali...to be pretentious." But you are right: Whenever you study any new discipline -- whether it be philosophy, biology, psychology, cooking, etc. -- there is a whole new vocabulary to learn. The Dhamma is a discipline that Western culture has tasted only slightly, and the act of learning the new vocabulary greatly facilitates the learning of the discipline. To take your example of "lobha", English- speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And on and on. Lobha has no English equivalent, and investigating the specifics about just what this "lobha" is is to open a door into the Dhamma. If we consider carefully what lobha is, what its characteristics are, what causes it to arise, then we gradually learn to recognize its arising and passing away in all its manifestations, its impermanent nature, its emptiness, and its danger (what's a good gloss for "dukkha" in its role as one of the three lakkhana?). Similarly, for the other Pali terms: a precise consideration of the meanings can shed great light on the Dhamma. "Cetasikas" is a wonderful tool for studying these meanings. Kudos to Nina for her careful work. Dan > I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider using > Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so many English > translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope more Pali > terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha have. 36062 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Ti... Hi, Sarah and all - In a message dated 9/6/04 6:09:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (Agrios,Vism study corner &All), > > You wrote the following to Agrios and myself recently: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! > >Just > >experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just > >what > >is present and its being present. > ..... > > More recently you added: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Speaking more specifically, my own direct observation is increasingly > >that > >experience, though usually seeming otherwise, is nondual, that > >subject-object duality is > >illusory, that there is no knowing subject nor known object, but merely > >experience consisting of the presence of experiential content. > ***** > S: While you add various qualifications, I wonder whether you see any > disparity with what you write or feel you experience and what we’ve been > reading recently in the Visuddhimagga, with cross-references to suttas. In > particular: > > 1) Visuddhimagga ch X1V, 82 as posted by Larry > > “82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, > all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And > what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness > (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why > "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), > citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That > same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the > characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) > profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)â€? > ***** > 2. Mi,292 is MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta > > “ ‘Consciousness, consciousness’ is said, friend. with reference to what > is ‘consciousness’ said?â€? > > ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said. > What does it cognize? It cognizes: ‘[This] pleasant’*; it cognizes: ‘[This > is] painful’; it cognizes: ‘[This is] neither-painful-nor-pleasant.’ ‘It > cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said.’â€? > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). > ...... > *in a footnote, the translators indicate that “The Pali construction, > ‘sukhan ti pi vijaanaati’,indicates that the feeling is being treated as a > direct object of consciousness rather than an effective tone of the > experience.â€? > ***** > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I see possible disparity. As I see it, all that is experienced is, per force, experiential. Moreover, as I see it, experiencing consists of nothing but experiential content and experiential presence. What lies beyond experience, if anything, is unknowable in principle. Throughout much of the Sutta Pitaka, and particularly in the khandhic scheme, I understand vi~n~nana to be the same as what I call experiential presence - the presence of experiential content. But in the scheme of dependent origination, I take it to be subjectivity - the sense of a subject which grasps an object, and such vi~n~nana is defilement of awareness, created by ignorance-conditioned fabrication. When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am concerned - and I don't buy that. As I see it, the sense of 'vi~n~nana' as mere experiential presence, that is - the presence of experiential content, is harmless and valid, but the sense of 'vi~n~nana' as a thing that knows is harmful. In any case, Sarah, all that I am increasingly aware of is that at any time all there is is is experiential content, the particular content that is present on that occasion. Any sense of a separate knowing of it is merely that old devil "self" (a.k.a. Mara) attempting to insinuate himself. ------------------------------------------------ > Howard, here the feelings are taken as objects of satipatthana. The same > applies to all other realities/actualities as objects of consciousness > with wisdom.There is no question in the texts of any self as being a > subject that experiences or exists in any form. However, the function of a > citta and its accompanying cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) is > to experience its object. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here you speak of a "citta" as if it were some thing that has a function. I don't adopt that perspective. ------------------------------------------------ Without an object,by way of object condition, no> > citta or cetasikas can arise. > ***** > 2. Also posted by Larry recently and discussed further by him and Nina: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being > supported by the eye and cognizing visible data. Its function is to have > only visible data as its object. It is manifested as occupation with > visible data. Its proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional > mind-element that has visible data as its object. -------------------------------------------- Howard: If by 'eye consciousness' is meant merely the presence of visual content (or what you would call "visible object") I have no problem with this at all. -------------------------------------------- > > (35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] > have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing > sounds, and so on. Their functions are to have only sounds, etc., as their > [respective] objects. They are manifested as occupation with > [respectively] sounds, and so on. Their proximate cause is the departure > of (70) the functional mind-element that has [respectively] sounds, etc., > as its object. > ***** > S: The text continues to discuss other cittas in the sense door and mind > door processes which also arises by various conditions, including object > condition, experience their respective objects and then fall away > instantly. It’s important to understand why and how vi~n~naa.na khandha > (consciousness aggregate) is distinct from other khandhas and to > understand the nature of cittas as experiencing their objects in order to > develop detachment from any lingering idea of self experiencing or having > any experience.Just conditioned dhammas as elaborated on by the Tiika > extracts Nina posted. > > I’ll leave your other comments for now and see if you have any problem > with these quotes and comments first. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s My apologies for referring to your comments in passing without quoting > them. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36063 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:37am Subject: Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Tiika) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: [...] > "82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, > all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And > what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness > (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why > "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), > citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That > same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the > characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) > profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)" Hi Sarah, Sorry if it sidetracks whole thread, but I may be lost here. I think there is 6 conconsciousnesses, sixth being mano vinaana. Am I wrong here? And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? metta, Agrios 36064 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Larry and Nina, May I participate in your discussion. I prefer Nina's word 'retention consciousness' for santira.na citta rather than Larry's word 'registration consciousness'. In sense door process after impulsion, there follow 2 successive cittas called tadarammana cittas if there are enough moments of rupa still left. This is only possible in case of atimahantarammana. This retention conscioussness is functioned by 11 cittas, 8 mahavipaka and 3 santirana cittas. Somanassa santirana can perform only 2 functions. One is investigating and another is retenting. But upekkha santirana cittas can perform as many as 5 functions as Nina says. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Hi Larry, This is only a mere passing moment, thus we should not misunderstand the term investigating, it is not like invvestigating as used in conventional language. See below. op 05-09-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV >98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, N: Here the Vis. deals with the two types of investigating- consciousness that are kusala vipaakacitta, not yet with the type that is akusala vipaakacitta (and that is accompanied by indifferent feeling). When the sense object is very pleasant investigating- consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, when it is moderately pleasant by indifferent feeling. > Text: and according to its being divisible into that with two ..snip... N: The position is actually the function it can perform. This type does not only perform the function of investigating when it succeeds the receiving-consciousness (and this succeeded a sense-cognition such as seeing), it can at other moments also perform other functions. The meaning is that it is the same type of citta as the santiira.nacitta, and accompanied by the same kinds of cetasikas. Thus, after the javana-cittas it can perform the function of retention. This is also vipaakacitta, and it hangs on once more to the sense object that impinged on a sense-door. Only in the case of cittas of the sensuous plane and in the sensuous planes of existence kamma roduces retention consciousness. Thus not in the case of jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas, and not in the higher planes of existence. Those who are reborn there are have developed detachment from sense objects.Two positions, because here the Vis. deals with the santiira.na-citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling. >Text: The other kind is > > 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when ..snip... N: The santiira.na-citta accompanied by equanimity can perform five functions. In addition to investigation and retention, it can perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. The last three cannot be performed by the santiira.na-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling. The last three functions are door freed or process freed, because these are not performed in a process of cittas that experience an object that impinges on one of the sense-doors. When a human is reborn with the vipaakacitta that is santira.na-citta, he is handicapped from birth and his capacities to develop understanding are very limited. This is conditioned by kamma. We can see that it is beyond control with what kind of vipaakacitta one is reborn. All bhavanga-cittas in that life are of the same type of citta. I will study more details of the Tiika and add relevant points. Nina. 36066 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:16am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 13 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the jhana practitioner is right on the jhana journey. He has achieved the first jhana. But what he needs to practise at this stage is to exercise as frequently as possible so that he may become proficient in his first jhana. He needs to contemplate on his jhana. This is called avajjana (contemplating ) vasi ( exercising ). He must contemplate his jhana and he must do this exercise as many times as possible. This is avajjana vasi or contemplating exercise. He has to contemplate that in his first jhana there are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata. This contemplationn is not just thinking. But this has to practise whenever he emerges from jhana and in the vacinity of jhana. Next he needs to exercise to reach the first jhana whenever he wants it. This needs a lot of practice. After achieving jhana, he may do things in other fields that are not jhana such as listening The Buddha Dhamma. He may think other things apart from jhana. But he should reach jhana again as fast as possible. He must be in that state whenever he wants to be in the state of jhana. This exercise is called 'samapajjana Vasi' or accessing exercise. Next he needs to prescribe how long he will stay on jhana before hand. He needs to able to do so whenever he wants and how long he wants. This exercise is called 'adhitthana vasi' or wilfully-time- marking exercise. If he wants to be on jhana for an hour, he must be able to do so. If he wants a day, a month, a year, or many years , he must be able to do so. When in jhana, there is no interposition of other cittas apart from jhana citta of the same kind. If they do not stop arising, they can happen endlessly. Next he needs to exercise to be able to wake up from jhana. Or emerge from his jhana or exit from his jhana. He must emerge as soon as his prescribed allotted period has lapsed. This exercise is called 'vuthana vasi' or emerging exercise. In doing so he must be exact in timing and he must not overshoot the targeted time. Next he needs to scrutinize his jhana. He must examine it and investigate it. This exercise is called 'paccavakkhana vasi' or scrutinizing exercise. With this exercise his jhana will become sharper and sharper. May you all exercise your jhana with above five methods to sharpen your Jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36067 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 056 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have discussed 9 rupavacara cittas. They are 3 rupakusala cittas that are the first jhana, the second jhana, and the third jhana cittas, 3 rupavipaka cittas which are the resultant cittas of their corresponding rupakusala cittas, and 3 rupakiriya cittas which are corresponding rupa jhana that arise in arahats. The 3rd jhana composes of 'piti, sukha, and ekaggata' as jhana factors. Again through five exercises called vasis, the jhana practitioner becomes to realise that in his 3rd jhana 'piti' is the weakest factor among others. Because pitit is close to vicara and this again is close to vitakka. If piti is held longer, at a time his 3rd jhana may decay and he may fall back to 2nd then 1st and then he will join back kamavacara where he may find difficulty in regaining jhana. Through deep contemplation and exercising, he realises that pitit is not a good one and with a long practice, he does not like piti any more. This makes him dispassion on piti. As he dispassionates on piti, he tries again his jhana without any piti. The object is the same as when he developed the 1st jhana. The whole mind and all mental faculties are well concentrated on that object. When the right time arises, he will be able to develop jhana without any piti. Again, this time the arising of the 4th rupa jhana only occur just a moment and then he falls into bhavanga cittas. At a time bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas arise again at manodvara. Through contemplation, he knows that he has developed the 4th jhana. When contemplates, he sees that there are only two jhana factors that is sukha and ekaggata. The 58th citta is called 'sukhekaggata sahitam catutthajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. This citta is a javana citta and it can give rise to kama. This kamma gives the resultant consciousness called rupavacara rupavipaka citta. This citta is 63rd citta of 89 cittas and it is called 'sukhekaggata sahitam catutthajjhana rupavacara rupavipaka citta. When the 4th jhana citta arise in arahats this jhana citta is called rupavacara rupakiriya citta and it is the 68th citta of 89 cittas in total. The full name of this 68th citta is 'sukhekaggata sahitam rupavacara rupakiriya citta. Here the object is that of when the third jhana arises. All rupavacara cittas take pannatta as their object. No appana jhana can take paramattha dhamma as their object. Pannatta is not a paramattha dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36068 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:51am Subject: miscellaneous to Phil Dear Phil, you had a few more Q. and remarks, but I do not remember in what context, there were so many mails. When we speak about citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always implied. We say vipaakacitta, and then the cetasikas are implied, we do not have to say vipaakacitta and vipaakacetasikas. To know or understand in Pali: many synonyms. One is: pajaanaati, to know clearly. Also seeing is used: passati, or dassati. In the context of vipassanaa we have the visuddhis, purifications: ñaa.na dassana visuddhi. vipassanaa: to see clearly form all sides.(vi is the prefix). Or kayanupassanaa: contemplation of the body. Now we come to the sutta you had in mind, I just hear it on tape. Kindred Sayings IV, Part II, about feeling 936, 1,1, §§ By abandoning. About the lurking tendencies, these are the anusayas, latent tendencies or biases. The latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to pleasant objects and to pleasant feeling. This means, it conditions the arising of lobha for such objects, and then the lobha falls away and continues as a latent tendency. Always increasing. But if one has right understanding of defilements, they wear out and thorugh lokuttara pañña they can be eradicated. You asked: to know one's defilements. There are many degrees of knowing. It begins by intellectual understanding and wise reflection in daily life, and then one will understand more the disadvange of them. We begin to know when we are angry that we ourselves are the loser when we have dosa. We always used to think that it was someone else's fault. Lodewijk and I bring this up often. In the swimmingpool when the fast swimmer will not give us space. Looks like your bicycle episode. Lodewijk gest angry and I say that he is the loser. Nina. 36069 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Ken H and Howard, really enjoying your friendly dialogue. Nina. op 06-09-2004 06:15 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Howard: > Anatta is the core of his teaching. > It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to > exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this > differently from worldings. > ------------------ > > KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > prescriptive,' I don't see arahants as `seeking to exercise control' > at all - not even in their own, unique, way of understanding > control. > > ----------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he > taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the > shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the > Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. > 36070 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:22pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hello Ken and Howard, and all > KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > prescriptive,' Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. Was it a modern commentator who called the Buddha a physician? In all the traditional descriptions of the Buddha is "physician" ever used? I ask because I often think in terms of that very contemporary word "healing" (as in "healing one's inner child") when thinking of what we go through as our eyes are opened to the Dhamma. Metta, Phil 36071 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Ti... Hello Howard, and all H: > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes >cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am > concerned. I've been confused (in my case) about this as well. But I had never identified the confusion and put it in words. Thanks. It will help me to eventually understand cittas. Metta, Phil 36072 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Pali canon in English and Pali? Hello all If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali and English. I must have bookmarked it, but can't find it. If there is such a site, could someone kindly link it again? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36073 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 4:42pm Subject: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, How difficult would it be to upload the "consciousness" chart from Visuddhimagga to dsg files? I have been studying this for a couple of hours today and found it very helpful. I thought possibly it could be scanned, but a more ambitious undertaking might be with hyper-links and possibly reformatting. Anything you could do in this area would be greatly appreciated. Larry 36074 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/6/04 12:38:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? > > ======================= That strongly depends on which sutta you read! ;-) There is at least one sutta which talks of only the five physical senses ceasing upon the death of arahant, leaving mind undiscussed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36075 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi all, Here is a reiteration of a couple of points I found difficult in this section. First, all consciousesses are classed as one of three kinds of elements: 1.Consciousness-element. These are the 5-door sense consciousnesses, profitable (kusala) and unprofitable (akusala). 2. Mind-element. These are profitable and unprofitable receiving consciousness, and 5-door adverting consciousness. [Mind door adverting consciousness is mind-consciousness-element and the same as 5-door determining consciousness. There is no mind door process determining consciousness.] 3. Mind-consciousness-element. These are all the other kinds of consciousness including one kind of adverting (above), investigation, determining, root, registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death. Any others? Next, all resultant (vipaka) consciousness is caused by (result of) root consciousness, profitable or unprofitable. The phrase "resultant mind-consciousness-element without root cause" means not accompanied by root cetasikas. All resultant consciousnesses, profitable and unprofitable, are unaccompanied by root cetasikas except for one class of profitable mind-consciousness element that performs the functions of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness. This means that this kind of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness is accompanied by nongreed (alobha), nonhatred (adosa), or nonbewilderment (amoha). This kind of profitable mind-consciousness-element WITH roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is the rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness of a healthy being [I think???]. The profitable mind-consciousness-element WITHOUT roots that functions as the rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness is of a human being born with a physical or mental impairment. It is profitable because it is profitable to be reborn as a human. The UNprofitable mind-consciousness-element without roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is of a lower realm being. Rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness are always resultant and always have the same object. The object for the next life is the object of the last consciousness _process_ before the death consciousness in this life. The sphere, and health in the case of sense-sphere, that one is born into is determined by root consciousnesses in any previous life. Corrections and questions are entirely welcome. Here is a link to the Vism.XIV 97 & 98 text: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/36009 Larry 36076 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Hi Htoo, H: "I prefer Nina's word 'retention consciousness' for santira.na citta rather than Larry's word 'registration consciousness'." L: Glad to have your in-put on this thread. The more the better. The translation isn't mine. I am just transcribing Bhikkhu ~Nanamoli's trans. from the PTS Edition. I think I will stay consistent with his terminology just to minimize the confusion but alternatives can usually aid in understanding also. I will try to post the pali for some key words but if there is too much pali I get lost. Consciousness is a very complex subject so any clarifications or examples you could provide would be very welcome. Sometimes just saying the same thing in a different way is helpful. Larry 36077 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, For... Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/6/04 6:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello Ken and Howard, and all > > >KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > >prescriptive,' > > Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described > as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. Was it a > modern commentator who called the Buddha a physician? In all the traditional > descriptions of the Buddha is "physician" ever used? I ask because I often > think in terms of that very contemporary word "healing" (as in "healing > one's inner child") when thinking of what we go through as our eyes are > opened to the Dhamma. > > Metta, > Phil > ========================== I believe there *are* suttas that describe the Buddha as a physician, though I cannot give you a reference. BTW, one may note that the 1st noble truth provides the diagnosis of an illness (dukkha), the second describes its [primary] cause, the 3rd the prognosis, and the 4th the method of treatment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36078 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Larry, I am not sure that we have the same version of Visuddhimagga. Please describe the chart (including page number in your version). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > How difficult would it be to upload the "consciousness" chart from > Visuddhimagga to dsg files? I have been studying this for a couple of > hours today and found it very helpful. I thought possibly it could be > scanned, but a more ambitious undertaking might be with hyper- links and > possibly reformatting. Anything you could do in this area would be > greatly appreciated. > > Larry 36079 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Howard (and Christine at the end), Here's a piece of ancient wisdom for you: "If a man goes to the remotest part of the forest - where no woman can hear him - is he still wrong?" * :-) In a similar vein, I was trying to draw you onto the topic of sabhava, I asked you to explain how anatta, as fact, is different from anatta, as description. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: > The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What it stands for is a characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I mean the same. > -------------------------- Agreed, but how is a reality different from a description of a reality? If there is no observer, or witness, to hear the description of a reality is it still a reality? Take, for example, the paramattha dhamma, cetana: it has the characteristic, anatta. How does a noble disciple experience anatta in cetana? Does he say, "There is cetana here, and I can't see anything else, therefore I conclude cetana is anatta, without self?" Or, does he investigate cetana and directly see anatta as being an integral, substantial, part of it? I know the second alternative sounds weird, but I think it is the right one. On the perennial subject of, "formalised patipatti," you wrote: ---------------------------------------------------- > Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- If that's wishy-washy remind me not to cross you when you're "loaded for bear." :-) As for calling it nonsense, I'd really like you to reconsider. Remember, the Dhamma is so deep even a Tathagata has second thoughts about trying to teach it. Somehow, we ignorant worldlings have to see the truth of something that is totally contrary to our way of knowing (totally nonsense). It might seem as though the Buddha taught a conventional right practice, but that is simply because we can't imagine how he could have taught anything else. In all of the Pali Canon, there is no mention of formalised vipassana meditation (except for a few misquoted lines from the Satipatthana Sutta). There is no mention of formal samatha meditation (unless you think sitting, straight-backed at the base of a tree, homeless, half-starved and dressed in rags, is somehow a cause, rather than a manifestation, of calmness). And yet, in this total absence of supporting evidence, we cling to the idea of a technique for enlightenment. That's worldlings for you! :-) Kind regards, Ken H * Don't blame me, Christine, Andrew told me that! :-) 36080 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 8:28pm Subject: Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > op 04-09-2004 04:16 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > .....snip..... > > A: Does the knowing of a nama or rupa precede the distinguishing of > > kusala from akusala? For example, does panna know a nama from a rupa > > before it knows kusala and akusala? Or once again, am I making it to > > simple? > N: This is a crucial point. Indeed, we cannot know precisely the > characteristic of kusala as nama, of akusala as nama, before there is a very > precise understanding of nama as nama and rupa as rupa, this is the first > stage of insight. We only know roughly, in general, in a conceptual way what > kusala and akusala are. We do not realize them as conditioned namas, we > still take them for mine. That is not the way to really know them as they > are. A. Sujin would say: we have to know first what dhamma, reality, is. But > this is a point that needs a lot of explanation. Not easy to understand > immediately. What is your opinion? > Nina. No, not easy to understand - not immediately and not after a long time!!!! However, for me its crucial to first theoretically know what dhamma means, what is it that we all take for self, for a lasting thing. I think its easy to say there is no self and fool ourselves that we know, but unless a nama or a rupa appears and is known clearly by Sati and Panna, then we will continue to fool ourselves. My opinion is that we cannot hear enuff of nama and rupa; citta, cetasika and rupa - what else is there? Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each other, how they condition each other - well I think the study just gets harder and often a condition for me to get very despondent, and I see that as defilements that want things to be different to the way they appear......hard to accept defilements, especially when I think its me who has them. A real catch 22, until there is a moment of right understanding, that knows the truth. Clinging, clinging, clinging. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 36081 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, R: "Hi Larry, I am not sure that we have the same version of Visuddhimagga. Please describe the chart (including page number in your version)." L: I have the 1999 BPS Pariyatti Edition but I would bet the same chart is with all BPS Editions. The same chart is also with Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary but I don't think it is on-line. In the Dict. it is a foldout. In my Vism. it is on pages 900 and 901. This has all the reference numbers of the 89 cittas that are used in the text. I think there might be some minor differences from edition to edition. There are some minor differences between the two above that I have. Larry 36082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, a great pleasure that you join in. Some people are not familiar with atimahantarammana, a very great object. This means, that the process of cittas can run its full course, so that after the javana cittas there are two more moments of rupa left. We come later on to the details. Sometimes the rupa falls away after the javana cittas, does not last longer. It cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. Before it comes into range (when the sense-door adverting-citta adverts to it, the first citta of a sense-door process)one moment may have past and then it runs for sixteen more moments, this its full course. Or, more than one moment has passed before it comes into range, and then it falls away sooner. Depending on the duration of the process we have in the sense-door process: very great, great, slight, very slight. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) Nina. op 06-09-2004 18:41 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > In sense door process after impulsion, there follow 2 successive > cittas called tadarammana cittas if there are enough moments of rupa > still left. This is only possible in case of atimahantarammana. 36083 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Dear Sarah, But my Removal series is not ended yet. You will see about the teeth!!! anyway, it is very clear that we cannot understand all these ways if we do not have some understanding of vipassana, it is implied and the co stresses it. The sutta says: with kusala citta abandon akusala, while pressing the teeth. With right understanding! And then the kindness of the Buddha, I just read the story about a rabbit in the co. the Bodhisatta said and explained the causes of the rabbit's fear. I shall come to it soon. I think helpful for all, not just bhikkhus. op 06-09-2004 11:28 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: .We were close to cancelling when I > was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. N: I am so glad you are better now. I understood that Num and Jaran are coming, looking at Betty's list? Nina. 36084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] on anattaa, in Pali. Hi Howard, just adding some Pali. op 06-09-2004 06:51 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What is stands for is a > characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of > all things. N: I looked at PED. under attaa/ anattaa: n. and predicative adjective. It is both, noun and adjective. as noun: anupassin (S IV, 49, etc.) Contemplation of non-self. in anupassanaa. as adj: sabbe dhammaa anattaa. Nina. 36085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios op 06-09-2004 18:37 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > [...] >> "82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, >> all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' .... is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) >> profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)" > Sorry if it sidetracks whole thread, but I may be lost here. > I think there is 6 conconsciousnesses, sixth being mano vinaana. > Am I wrong here? N: there are many ways of classifying citta, and one way is sixfold: by way of the object citta experiences through the six doors. You are right. Here it is according to: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, indeterminate dhamma. The Dhammasangani, first book of the Abh classifies all dhammas, all realities, as threefold. This is followed here in this section. One classification does not exclude others and they all show different aspects. It is not technical, but in order to help us to have more understanding of citta now. It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't we often take akusala for kusala? Also when the vipaakacitta of seeing has past and we are thinking about it with akusala, and believe it is still vipaaka. No end to confusion. A: And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? N: I would not call the five sense cognitions conventional, they are cittas. The arahat has eradicated all akusala. He still experiences six kinds of objects but not with kusala citta nor akusala citta. He has vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Is this what you want to know? Nina. 36086 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Dan Dear Dan, I thought today I should send a greeting to Dan, long time, no see. And there you are, this usually happens. When someone is away long I have a habit of sending greetings. I understood that you had some house moving to do. I am glad you are back. Nina. op 06-09-2004 17:19 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > Dear Phil, > I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using > Pali...to be pretentious." 36087 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/6/04 10:13:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Christine at the end), > > Here's a piece of ancient wisdom for you: > > "If a man goes to the remotest part of the forest - where no woman > can hear him - is he still wrong?" * > > :-) In a similar vein, I was trying to draw you onto the topic of > sabhava, I asked you to explain how anatta, as fact, is different > from anatta, as description. > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What it stands for is a > characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold > universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. > By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I > mean the same. > > -------------------------- > > Agreed, but how is a reality different from a description of a > reality? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why would anyone consider them to be remotely alike, let alone the same? --------------------------------------------------- If there is no observer, or witness, to hear the > > description of a reality is it still a reality? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: A short answer - yes. A different, more important, and far more subtle question, I think, is whether there exist unobserved realities. I think that the answer is yes, but in a very complex sense involving what might be called "counterfactual conditionalities," a topic of interest to precious few, and of urgency to absolutely no one! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Take, for > > example, the paramattha dhamma, cetana: it has the characteristic, > anatta. How does a noble disciple experience anatta in cetana? Does > he say, "There is cetana here, and I can't see anything else, > therefore I conclude cetana is anatta, without self?" > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: One who is not an ariyan would not say that. For worldlings, I would say that grasping anatta is an indirect business, only, and involving inference. And even for those non-arahant ariyans, I believe that the full, direct grasping of the emptiness of dhammas is experienced only at the moments of path and fruition consciousness. For these lesser ariyans, I believe that at other times, at best there are merely adumbrations and vague recollections, plus the inferential knowledge also available to worldlings. Arahants, on the other hand, I believe are never without vijja. ------------------------------------------------- > > Or, does he investigate cetana and directly see anatta as being an > integral, substantial, part of it? > > I know the second alternative sounds weird, but I think it is the > right one. > > On the perennial subject of, "formalised patipatti," you wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------- > >Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha > trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is > a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation > was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope > you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------- > > If that's wishy-washy remind me not to cross you when you're "loaded > for bear." :-) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > As for calling it nonsense, I'd really like you to reconsider. > Remember, the Dhamma is so deep even a Tathagata has second thoughts > about trying to teach it. Somehow, we ignorant worldlings have to > see the truth of something that is totally contrary to our way of > knowing (totally nonsense). > > It might seem as though the Buddha taught a conventional right > practice, but that is simply because we can't imagine how he could > have taught anything else. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, that's not why. The reason I believe he taught this is that this is what I have seen in the suttas, time and time again. ------------------------------------------------------ In all of the Pali Canon, there is no > > mention of formalised vipassana meditation (except for a few > misquoted lines from the Satipatthana Sutta). There is no mention of > formal samatha meditation (unless you think sitting, straight-backed > at the base of a tree, homeless, half-starved and dressed in rags, > is somehow a cause, rather than a manifestation, of calmness). And > yet, in this total absence of supporting evidence, we cling to the > idea of a technique for enlightenment. That's worldlings for you! :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Evidently we read different editions of the Sutta Pitaka, Ken! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > * Don't blame me, Christine, Andrew told me that! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've heard that one before, Ken. There is a degree of amusement to it, because, in a way, it manages to put down both women *and* men - quite an accomplishment! ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36088 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 11:07pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Phil, ------------------- KH: > > Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not prescriptive,' > > Phil: > Interesting line! ----------------------- KH: There was a typo. I am one who sees the Dhamma `as' prescriptive not `is' prescriptive. I'm not that sure of myself. :-) I was alluding to a recurrent dsg discussion started by Jon, as I remember, years ago when he suggested the Dhamma was descriptive. In the debate that followed, Num (or maybe Kom) quoted K Sujin as having said that the Dhamma was "descriptive, not prescriptive." I've been running with it ever since. :-) Suppose the Buddha did prescribe a cure for our ills. (A pretty obvious thing to say whichever way you look at it.) How could that prescription be followed? Remembering there is no controlling entity at the helm, how does one put into practise and verify the cure (the Dhamma)? Try as you might, the only answer you can find (that is consistent with the recorded teachings) is to `know the dhammas that are arising now.' To facilitate this, the Buddha `described' those dhammas in every possible combination and permutation. If we think the Buddha prescribed a course of `things to do,' then we are forgetting, or ignoring, the doctrine of anatta. That will see us following a course of wrong action conditioned by wrong view. There I go answering a question you didn't ask and ignoring the point you were making, which was about "healing one's inner child." Interesting line! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36089 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 11:38pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Dhammapada, vs. 183 The mind cannot be purified if we do not thoroughly investigate it. When we try to analyse the mind it seems to escape us, we cannot grasp it. The mind is variable, it changes very rapidly. At one moment there is a mind with attachment, at another moment a mind with generosity, at another moment a mind with anger. At each moment there is a different mind. Through the Buddhist teachings we learn that in reality the mind is different from what we mean by the word "mind" in conventional language. What we call mind are in reality different fleeting moments of consciousness succeeding one another very rapidly. Since "mind" has in psychology a meaning different from "mind" according to the Buddhist teaching, it is to be preferred to use the Pali term citta (pronounced: chitta). Pali is the language of the Buddhist scriptures of the Theravada tradition. Citta is derived from the PaIi word for thinking (cinteti). All cittas have in common that they "think" of an object, but we have to take thinking here in a very general sense, meaning, being conscious of an object, or cognizing an object. The Buddha's teachings explain in a very precise way the objects which, each through the appropriate doorway, can be cognized by citta. For example, colour or visible object can be known through the eye-door, sound through the ear-door. Through each of the senses the corresponding object can be known. Through the mind door all kinds of objects, also concepts and ideas, can be known. Before we studied the Buddhist teachings we had a vague, general idea of a thinking mind and we did not have a precise knowledge of objects which are cognized each through their appropriate doorway. Citta is varied because of the different kinds of objects it experiences. Seeing is totally different from hearing. Citta is varied because of the different mental factors or adjuncts which accompany it in various combinations. The Pali term cetasika (pronounce: chetasika) is to be preferred to the English translations of this term which vary in different textbooks. Cetasika means literally: belonging to the mind (ceto). There are fifty two different cetasikas which each have their own characteristic and function. Later on I will explain the rational of these cetasikas and their classification. There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each citta is accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same object, but which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the citta. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36090 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Pali canon in English and Pali? Hello Phil, all, Suttas in Pali, Sinhala, and English can be found at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ The Pali is based on the Sri Lanka Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka Series. Sinhala is the A.P. de Soyza's translations. English is by various authors often downloaded from the Internet. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me > to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali > and English. I must have bookmarked it, but can't find it. If there is such > a site, could someone kindly link it again? Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 36091 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, (RobM & Phil at the end), We were discussing jhanas and I think you had suggested that in your jhana series: H:> It is pure jhana. it may or may not be within the boundries of Buddhism.’ and that ‘It will not be exactly like samatha of buddhism. Samatha in buddhism are all intended for development of panna or insight. My jhana series is not for that. Just pure jhana.< ..... I may have misunderstood you, but I wrote: S: >All dhammas are within the ‘boundaries of Buddhism’. There is no such thing as a ‘Buddhist jhana’ or ‘non-Buddhist jhana’ in the sense that the realities, the cittas, have their characteristics and functions regardless of how they are described or any views about them< ..... You responded: H:> Were Devimala, Alara and Udaka Buddhists? What about their jhanas? > > Did they do any vipassana? ..... S: i’m not sure if there is any fundamental disagreement between us here or not, but after some delay, I’m going to probe a little further. No offence intended at all. In terms of the cittas which you are enumerating in another series so well, is there any difference at all in a samatha development citta or a jhana citta of one who has heard the Buddha’s teachings and developed a little or a lot of vipassana and one who hasn’t? Obviously one who hasn’t heard of the Buddha or Dhamma will not have these as objects of samatha, for example, but lets say the object -- say breath or foulness of the body or kasina is the same. What would be the difference in the cittas which take these as objects? What about the panna which accompanies these cittas, how is it different? Of course, subsequent cittas will be very different, but we were talking about the development of samatha and the understanding required from the very beginning for anyone. Intentions or wishes to have jhanas, rooted in attachment, for example, will be equally useless whether one calls oneself a Buddhist or not, don’t you think? ***** On another topic -- your very helpful suggestions to RobM, he’s very fortunate to have this assistance. Just a couple of points which surprised me. In (03), you introduced the term ‘media’ to replace his term ‘space’. I assume (but haven’t checked) he was referring to aakaasa rupa, usu. translated as space. I didn’t quite follow your reasoning, but I understand aakaasa to ‘delimit’ other rupas. Also for water, you suggested aapo ‘means saliva’. Again, this would be a rather unusual translation. Aapo has the function of cohesion of other rupas, surely. Finally, for earth (pathavi), you suggested ‘nerve’. You did say it may not make sense to some learners;-). Again, earth is the common translation, but it could be solidity or hardness perhaps. When we touch the keyboard or door, pathavi is experienced, but even if we don’t touch them, the kalapas of rupas making up the keyboard or door still contain these rupas. Actually, I was rather confused by the original statement of Rob’s too (but that probably serves me right for just reading a line or two out of context). You said that in the table on [3.page 18] that the requisites for sense-consciousness given were light, space, air, water and earth.’ Perhaps Rob can elaborate.Usually I read that seeing consciousness is due to 1)visible object, 2)sensitive eye, 3)light, 4)attention (e.g see U Narada, preface to Conditional Relations). On sanna, you particularly liked RobM’s description of ‘looking for distinguishing marks.....’. I’m not sure we could say that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. One point I’m lazy to double-check is on javana cittas. I agree with you that it’s not strictly true to say that each javana citta in the sequence is the same and you elaborated well. As you mentioned, the 1st is weakest and can only bring results in this life, depending on conditions. The last is next weakest and you said it ‘gives rise to its effect starts from immediate next life’. Do you mean this life or next life, depending on conditions or only next life? You said the ‘middle 5 javana cittas give rise their results from the third life to as long as in the samsara’. Can these really not bring a result in this life or the next one even though they are the 'stronger' cittas? Thx for any clarification, Htoo or RobM. I know Rob has written about it before. It's rather academic, but if one's writing a book, better to be accurate. Ok - enough, I’m already in over my head in these details;-). Phil, I’m still hoping we’ll see some of your comments on Rob’s book here too;-) Btw, when we go on our trip to India (pilgrimage sites) in mid-October, we’ll be starting in Bodh Gaya and have 2 or 3 nts there. Not long I know, but if you or anyone is in the region and wishes to visit Bodh Gaya anyway, it would be a good chance to meet a large group of us inc. K.Sujin, have discussions and spend time in this most ‘enlightened’ spot. Again, let me or any of the others know off-list if you’d like more details. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, apologies for mixing up topics under your thread subjects. RobM - another topic -bhumis (planes of existence) and why the arupabrahma cittas need rupas as support condition in sensuous planes and not in arupabrahma planes. I raised it with K.Sujin. The cittas are the same and as you rightly said, it's just because of the bhumi or realm. In the 5 khandhas planes, rupas need the support of cittas to be experienced and vice versa. In the arupabrahma planes, the cittas don't need this support (because there are not 5 khandhas arising as I understand). ======= 36092 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi AL, (Phil in passing) I’m picking up the points from your last post (to me) that haven’t been addressed by others like RobK already. (Very grateful when others come in to assist on any threads, btw). In the Spotlight ============= A:> The spotlight method is just sort of a beam of bright awareness that > you can focus on particular mental states, such as depression, fear, > and miserliness. They weaken and dissipate when you shine the > spotlight on them. It's pretty effective once you get it going but > you need to sustain awareness of the tactile sensation of your breath > until it takes birth. ..... S:By all means continue if you find it helpful. I was merely wishing to indicate that this kind of awareness as we’re used to thinking of it is not the same as the characterisitic of sati (in satipatthana) which is not focussed by you or me and which doesn’t select any object in particular to be zapped;-) ...... A:> No wishing or anything involved. .... S: Isn’t there any wishing that the depression, fear or miserliness at these times will dissipate? For most of us, it’s very natural to wish them away and to cling to states when they’re not arising. .... A:> At what stage is stinginess eradicated completely w/ satipatthana? .... S: Sotapanna .... A: > I'm skeptical, I'd think it would be later on. I know spotlight > works, if you look at my eyes you can see I've done some work to clean > it away. the 'spotlight' I'm referring to is a really literally a > mental spotlight, we might use awareness to look at other nama and > rupa but I don't know if we'd call it spotlighting. I'm kind of vague > about what sense of awareness you are talking about. I'm thinking > you mean mindfulness or sati, which I guess you could also call a > spotlight, so yeah. .... S: Sometimes it might seem that good progress has been made when ugly states like this one don’t arise or don’t arise so often. But the tendency still lies dormant waiting for an opportunity to arise until it has been completely eradicated. As I mentioned with harsh speech, we may adjust our lifestyle or practise so that there is no speech at all, let alone harsh speech, for a while, but the tendency is still there. When I refer to awareness or mindfulness in our discussions, I’m referring to the development of satipatthana which has any nama or rupa as object without any selection at all. Just what’s appearing now. As RobK indicated, cittas are arising and falling away too fast to be slowed down or selected or spotted. There’s no self to do this in any case. ..... > > S: Of course it's panna that will start, continue and finish up the > job;-) > A:> I don't see how this is the case. The method I'm referring to is pure > awareness. ... S: When sati in satipatthana arises, panna has to be there accompanying it. In the Satipatthana sutta we read about the development of sati-sampajanna. Sampajanna means panna or wisdom. In many suttas we read about how panna or right understanding is the leader or forerunner. ..... Is Depression a Defilement? ========================= A:> Yeah but depression isn't a defilement, it's a mental state that can > be made to evaporate with the kind of awareness I'm talking about. > That would go a long way towards helping me eradicate all defilements > since I wouldn't be so depressed. ... S: I know this is the popular view. As you’ll see in our study of ‘Cetasikas’, unpleasant mental feeling can only arise with cittas rooted in dosa (consciousness with aversion). Whenever there is dosa, the citta is unwholesome. This isn’t discouraging at all. It’s just the same for us all. Much better to know because this is the way that awareness can really begin to be aware and understanding to develop and know it for what it is. it’s not ‘my’ or ‘your’ depression. It’s an unwholesome mental state which arises and falls away immediately. Often it seems to last, but this is only thinking that it lasts. No mental states or any dhammas last at all. All defilements will be eradicated only when developed panna really understands the characteristics of namas and rupas very, very precisely for what they are -- not self at all. See Phil’s post #35720 and the quote he gives on subtle defilements. (These posts of mine are already too long, so I won’t start requoting or finding refs). Snail Boy;-) ========= A: > It wasn't a ritual. I was walking, and someone yelled out "snail boy" > from their car, so I started walking slowly, and things started coming > into focus. Almost felt like right understanding of contact and > everything was there. But ya, first stirrings. If you have any other > ideas on how to cultivate right view, please share. .... S: I know what you mean. Trust me, better avoided at the hospital if you want your medications reduced;-). It certainly seems that there is more focus and mindfulness when we follow such practices, but I mentioned ‘ritual’, because whenever there is an idea of a particular activity being undertaken in order to have sati arise, it inidcates a lack of confidence in the Buddha’s teachings with regard to conditioned realities arising and falling and beyond any self’s power to exercise any control. As Phil suggested, this shouldn’t be discouraging at all, if understood even a little. It’s liberating. No need to take any special action or restrict one’s life in anyway. Just live naturally. (Phil: ‘Each has one’s own way’ at any given time. Generally speaking we might say ‘my way is to go swimming or to reflect on metta’, but on a deeper level, we can say the accumulations or ‘ own way’ is just at this very moment only-- the present dhammas arising -- and we have no idea about the way for the next moment. Again, if we think we’ll go swimming or reflect on metta as a practice to have more kusala and less akusala, panna can know whether there’s any clinging to self or self view at such times, as you realize.;-)) Continual Awareness =================== A: > Oh Well I get the first part, but I don't see how it means that no > one can have continual awareness of every cita. Why can't they. .... S: Let’s do some elimination. For a start, awareness can only arise with wholesome cittas. So whenever there is depression or any kind of unpleasant mental feeling, there is no awareness. Whenever there is any attachment such as most the time we feel happy or content, there’s no awareness. Whenever there is just plain ignorance, no knowing about anything which includes a large chunk of cittas in my case, no awareness. When there is seeing or hearing or other sense consciousness, or bhavanga cittas in between processes such as in deep sleep, again no awareness. I could go on and on. Even when we come to wholesome cittas, such as at moments of generosity or metta, there is sati at these times, but not the kind of sati we are discussing which leads to the development of satipatthana. ..... Concentration won’t go away;-) ======================= A:> Yah, the breath nimitta I have experienced is access concentration. > If I'm correct wisdom springs from concentration. That's the > threefold training with morality at the start, right? .... S: Again I’d stress panna (wisdom) as being the forerunner. In the Visuddhimagga under sila, you can see wisdom is stressed from the very beginning. There cannot be right concentration without right understanding/wisdom. Wrong concentration or clinging to right or wrong concentration will take one off the path. A:> I think I was, or am now anyway, referring to momentary concentration, > perhaps on a similar level as access, which is the level of > concentration needed to observe everything as it changes > moment-to-moment in one's experience. This is indeed stated in the > Vism. ..... S: Momentary concentration arises all the time. It doesn’t say access concentration is needed to be developed first for the development of vipassana. There will not be any understanding of impermanence until namas and rupas are clearly understood as you can read in the Vism under Stages of Insight. Even if access concentration were a necessary pre-requisite for anything, it can never be developed just by concentrating without any very, very fine understanding of kusala and akusala cittas when they arise. Not Consorting with Fools ====================== A:> In the Mahamangala Sutta when a deity asked the Buddha what is > the highest protection the first line of his response was 'not > consorting with fools'. .... S: And yet, on a deeper level, it all comes down to our cittas whilst we are with fools. I wrote a long post sometime about the deeper meaning about associating with ‘superior persons’ as a condition for becoming a sotapanna with lots of references. In brief, it doesn’t mean one has to be in the company of a superior person (i.e an ariyan), but one has to be able to appreciate the qualities of wisdom through one’s own development of panna. This is the meaning of associating with the wise. And so, on a deeper level, not ‘consorting with fools’ means, as I understand, not assuming the same foolish characteristics or defilemens of a fool. As we discussed in an earlier ‘seclusion’ thread, wisdom can grow in the middle of a crowd when there is appreciation of what its nature is and what its objects are. I appreciate that when we are with fools, there may be more conditions for defilements to arise. But the cittas are conditioned this way and understanding is the key, not thinking another environment would be better. .... A:> Can you explain where you are going with this. > > > > Every morning when I do some yoga, have a swim or a walk, I know there > > will be plenty of attachment arising. <...> > > The development of understanding is most important because it can > > understand such attachment or anger or any other dhamma as anatta. .... S: I’m merely indicating that if we try to construct our lives so that there is no attachment or no aversion arising, for example, it merely shows the strong deep-rooted attachment to oneself being a certain way, being a certain kind of person. A friend once told us that his aim was to have a complete change of character (maybe he said a ‘revolution of character’) and for this reason didn’t wish to hear any more about namas and rupas or anatta. The strong clinging to self and his practice led to extreme mental problems. AL, it has to be a pth of detachment from what is conditioned right now. Like in the story James wrote about Patty and Dominique, whether one think’s one is so cool or feels one is so wretched, the problem --the attachment to self -- is the same .... Metta, Sarah ==== A:> Thinking about hoping to live longer than a short time, ..... S: ;-) I think you’re truly fortunate to have such a keen appreciation of the Dhamma at a young age. You have the opportunity to really develop wisdom in this life and also to help others a lot in this regard, Al with your articulate writing and pleasant way. I don’t even need to find quotes as you pick up the points so quickly. As for ‘the kind of sucks’ you mentioned in another post to someone in relation to your good conditions and not having made the most of it.....it’s like that for us all, Al. Better not to look back or have regrets. Just this moment and the way forward;-). Patience til death is never too much.....patience with each conditioned dhamma appearing;-). ============ 36093 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Ken, and all > Suppose the Buddha did prescribe a cure for our ills. (A pretty >obvious thing to say whichever way you look at it.) How could that >prescription be followed? Remembering there is no controlling entity >at the helm, how does one put into practice and verify the cure (the >Dhamma)? Try as you might, the only answer you can find (that is >consistent with the recorded teachings) is to `know the dhammas that >are arising now.' To facilitate this, the Buddha `described' those >dhammas in every possible combination and permutation. >If we think the Buddha prescribed a course of `things to do,' then >we are forgetting, or ignoring, the doctrine of anatta. That will >see us following a course of wrong action conditioned by wrong view. Ph: I see what you mean by descriptive. That "descriptive not prescriptive" is one of those lines that will stick with me and help me in considering anatta. Thanks to K Sujin via anata! ("Anata" is "you" - polite form - in Japanese. I couldn't resist. :) ) I still am wondering about whether, in the beginning, people can benefit or not from following prescribed actions, even if in wrong view of self. The other day Nina taught me/us about the various degrees of defilements and the ways of eradicating them.. I still wonder if progress cannot be made on gross defilements, the ones that involve transgressions, by following prescribed actions. For example, the methods of removing distracting thoughts seem explicit and prescriptive. Nina mentions at one point that doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings more akusala unless sati is involved.(If I recall correctly) But it seems to me - for what that's worth- that following these instructions could help when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. So I wonder if it could be said that the Dhamma is prescriptive in the prevention of transgressions in the Vinaya (sp?) and becomes more descriptive as we move into consideration of medium defilements in the suttas, and then thoroughly descriptive re eradication of subtle defilements in Abhidhamma? In any case, thanks again for that juicy line! Metta, Phil 36094 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi all, Corrections and questions are entirely welcome. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, The dead can never be conscious. Dead-consciousness does not make any sense. I think dying-consciousness makes more sense. Nina uses dying- consciousness. Cuti citta is still alive. There are three anukhanas or 3 submoments. They are initiation, persistence, and perishing or upada, thi, and bhanga. Only after passing away of bhanga, it is called dead. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36095 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Nina: Dear Htoo,a great pleasure that you join in. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, this is the area where I am not clear of even though I may have may own reasoning. I mean why are there clear and unclear? Which is clear process? Is that those with tadarammana? Which is unclear process? Is that those without tadarammana? With respect, Htoo Naing 36096 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:46am Subject: Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Larry, Found it. It is page 881-882 in my version of the Visuddhimagga (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, also by BPS; third edition dated 1975). It starts with the profitable (kusala) mental states. I note that this numbering system is different from the Abhidhammatthasangaha (the numbering system with which I am more familiar). No problem in creating a chart, but it won't be ready for a few days as I am really, really busy at the moment. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > L: I have the 1999 BPS Pariyatti Edition but I would bet the same chart > is with all BPS Editions. The same chart is also with Nyanatiloka's > Buddhist Dictionary but I don't think it is on-line. In the Dict. it is > a foldout. In my Vism. it is on pages 900 and 901. This has all the > reference numbers of the 89 cittas that are used in the text. I think > there might be some minor differences from edition to edition. There are > some minor differences between the two above that I have. 36097 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Thanks for posting these excerpts, Sarah. This is a good topic for discussion. Not that 'most everything discussed here isn't a good topic, it's just that after such a lengthy break, a new thread is a good place to start. I have a few questions from today's excerpt. Beginning with the first line: > Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the > teaching of the Buddhas. > Dhammapada, vs. 183 My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each citta is > accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same object, > but which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in > cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the citta. In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward the goal. For example, in a restaurant the goal is to provide customers with satisfying food in a pleasant environment. The function of the cook is to prepare the food, the function of the waiter is to deliver the food in a friendly manner, and the function of the busboy is to clear the dishes to make room for the next customers. Clearly, this unifying theme of working toward a common goal is not an aspect of the word "function" as it pertains to dhammas. Cittas don't have a goal, much less share a common goal. Instead, does it make more sense to think about "function" more in the mathematical sense: given some input, the function performs its operations, and the result differs from the original input [note to Howard: the result is of course the same at fixed points, but let's not force the analogy that far!]. In a mathematics, there really isn't anything there besides the function -- nothing to contain the function. Can we carry the analogy to this level with the cittas and cetasikas too? Is there more to a citta or cetasika outside its function? Metta, Dan 36098 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:49am Subject: Citta Chart Hi Larry and All, I decided to take a break from my work and create a citta chart in the Visuddhimagga format. Please check it out in the files section and let me know if I made any mistakes. Metta, Rob M :-) 36099 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:07am Subject: "Deeds of Merit" - Avoidance of kusala through wholesome deeds Hello all, More ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin. (available at zolag. com) K.S. : Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements. Kusala which is daana, generosity, is the giving up or elimination of avarice, of clinging to possessions. However, besides avarice, there are many other kinds of defilements which should be eliminated. ***** (those who suffer easily from motion sickness should stick with K Sujin and stop reading here. Lots of foggy babbling ahead) Ph; This sounds important. : ¡ÈEach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements.¡É It sounds too easy, to tell the truth. ¡ÈElimination¡É sounds so final. Is it the same as ¡Èeradication?¡É Surely that doesn¡Çt come until much later, sotapanna at the earliest. To try understand it a bit better, I will have to refer to the posts Nina and Christine provided related to the different degrees of defilements. I am still absorbing the post from Nina, but one part is quoting the Commentary to the Digha Nikaya: ¡ÈIn the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements.¡É I can see how a wholesome act could mean giving up defilements momentarily. Especially coarse ones, perhaps through what the commentary Nina provides calls ¡Ècategorical avoidance¡É that is taught in the Vinaya vs. ¡Èavoidance consisting of elimination and eradication¡É that is taught in the other two baskets. One cannot be producing akusala kamma when one is doing sila. But that moment is so short, with moments of akusala in between moments of kusala. ¡ÈGiving up¡É, which must be the same as ¡Èabandoning¡É must be renouncing. When we are not performing dana, sila or bhavana, there is akusala citta, so at those moments we are ¡Ègiving up¡É defilements, I guess. But ¡Èeliminating?¡É That I don¡Çt understand, but it might be language nuance ? elimination sounds the same as eradication to me, but above we see ¡Èelimination *and* eradication¡É. And I could understand this easier with coarse defilements, defined in A. III, 100 as ¡Èbad body-conduct, bad speech-conduct, bad mind-conduct.¡É When we get to the medium defilements (¡Èsensual thoughts, angry thoughts, cruel thoughts¡É) it seems to me that we are getting into things that cannot be renounced/given up/abandoned just like that. (It¡Çs interesting to think about the difference between the coarse defilement of ¡Èbad mind conduct¡É and the medium defilement of ¡Èsensual thoughts, angry thoughts., cruel thoughts.¡É I guess in the former, precepts are transgressed mentally?) So I wonder if K Sujin¡Çs ¡Èeach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements¡É is tilted towards coarse defilements. Well, avarice, which she mentions, is not that coarse, I guess. I¡Çll keep learning more as I read. Surely I am attached to thinking, to books., to words. If I brought this kind of babbling inquiry to K Sujin she would urge me to consider what is happening *now*. You¡Çve taken so much time with responses to my wordy posts recently, Nina. I¡Çm very grateful for that. Please don¡Çt allow them to take time from your other projects. Metta, Phil 36100 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Hi Dan, Very happy to see you around again;-) --- "Dan D." wrote: >To take your example of "lobha", English- > speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about > what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and > get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for > me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." > And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really > mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that > doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of > sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And > on and on. <...snipped only to set an example here;-) > Good to see you haven't lost your razor sharp way with words -good post. Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah p.s should have some good news for you sooon with regard to sending some recordings by email......Like Nina, I had been thinking of you recently (in this connection in my case). Apologies for long delays. Rgds to Lisa. Philip in particular would love any more of her qus on the brahma viharas btw. Also hope the boys are doing well. ========================== 36101 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 1:21am Subject: Void Freedom...! Friends: How to Cross Samsara: The venerable Upasiva once requested the Buddha: Sir, I am alone, dependent, helpless, I cannot cross the flood of sense desire, neither the flood of becoming nor the flood of ignorance, nor the flood of views! Please All-Seeing-One tell me the meditation object, by which I may cross this flood. Aware, direct mind towards Nothingness, replied the Buddha, be helped by relying on the notion: 'Nothing really is...'! Thus by relinquishing all desires, by stilling all speculative disputes & by reviewing the elimination of craving day & night one can croos this flood... Sutta Nipata 1069-70 All yours in the True Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 36102 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > > five conventional senses consciousnesses? > > > > > ======================= > That strongly depends on which sutta you read! ;-) There is at least > one sutta which talks of only the five physical senses ceasing upon the death > of arahant, leaving mind undiscussed. Right, thats why I am interested if there is some sort of explanation to it. On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. Now, fear comes into picture. On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff without a fear. This fear is just clinging shifted in time. We crated time, so we go with the story of self in it. And there is sati whispering.... "it never happened...its never been..." ~%) metta, Agrios 36103 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] [...] It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, > when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't > we often take akusala for kusala? How do we know whats kusala and whats akusala? I use second Noble Truth to find out, is this OK? >Also when the vipaakacitta of seeing has > past and we are thinking about it with akusala, and believe it is still > vipaaka. No end to confusion. > > A: And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? > N: I would not call the five sense cognitions conventional, they are cittas. > The arahat has eradicated all akusala. He still experiences six kinds of > objects but not with kusala citta nor akusala citta. He has vipaakacitta and > kiriyacitta. Is this what you want to know? > Nina. Yes Nina, thank you. Let me go a little further. Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses creating them? Or arahant experiences just six different experiences but is not turning them into objects? metta, Agrios 36104 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 9/7/04 10:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense > of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any > consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm having a bit of difficulty in following what you mean here, Agrios. As far as the foregoing is concerned: 1) I presume that you are speaking figuratively when you speak of "we", and of "no one", and 2) I presume that the last sentence of yours (above) merely reflects sankhara being a requisite for vi~n~nana? ----------------------------------------------- > Now, fear comes into picture. > > On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff > without a fear. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Drop what "stuff"? Also, are you assuming that one can dispense with fear by merely deciding to? (Were it only that simple! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > This fear is just clinging shifted in time. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's good. I like that formulation. --------------------------------------------- We crated time,> > so we go with the story of self in it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, I'm not clear on what you intend here. Indeed, time is mentally fabricated as is self, but are you saying more? ---------------------------------------------- > And there is sati whispering.... > "it never happened...its never been..." > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Or is that pa~n~na? ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36105 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Agrios - > > In a message dated 9/7/04 10:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > agriosinski@y... writes: > > > On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense > > of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any > > consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm having a bit of difficulty in following what you mean here, > Agrios. As far as the foregoing is concerned: 1) I presume that you are speaking > figuratively when you speak of "we", and of "no one", and 2) I presume that the > last sentence of yours (above) merely reflects sankhara being a requisite for > vi~n~nana? > ----------------------------------------------- Yes Howard. Thats right. I wish I could state this as clear as you did. > > Now, fear comes into picture. > > > > On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff > > without a fear. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Drop what "stuff"? Also, are you assuming that one can dispense with > fear by merely deciding to? (Were it only that simple! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------- drop ...hehe funny... I know what, but I don't know how to write about it. Drop this mental mess. How is that? I am assuming that I can part with being frightened, but I dont think that's something I will deliver to myself. If self will create anything, it will be only to reestablish self existence. I am assuming that fear will arrise if there is any slightest shadow of time crating in place. But will I be frightened if there is understanding that it arrises only to establish self? Will I be frightened if instead of doing, I will just watch? > > This fear is just clinging shifted in time. > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's good. I like that formulation. > --------------------------------------------- > We crated time,> > > so we go with the story of self in it. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, I'm not clear on what you intend here. Indeed, time is mentally > fabricated as is self, but are you saying more? > ---------------------------------------------- It seems that I create time just for this one reason. To extend life of self, preserve it till next self will be created and established. Thats the only observation I've had. > > > And there is sati whispering.... > > "it never happened...its never been..." > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or is that pa~n~na? > ====================== No idea. I am confusing sankharas with conciousnesses, and now, maybe sanna with sati and panna. metta, Agrios 36106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Larry, Thank you. I add something. op 07-09-2004 02:59 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > First, all consciousnesses are classed as one of three kinds of elements: > > 1.Consciousness-element, viññaa.na dhaatu. These are the 5-door sense consciousnesses, > profitable (kusala) and unprofitable (akusala). N: seeing etc. are vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Thus, we have to add the word vipaaka; kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Otherwise people think that they are active, whereas they are passive. In the next paras and Tiika this will be further explained. (reflection in the mirror). L: 2. Mind-element. These are profitable and unprofitable receiving > consciousness N: They are vipaaka, resultant, and thus this has to be added. See above. ,L: and 5-door adverting consciousness. N: Five-door adverting-consciousness, mind-element, is kiriyacitta. (inoperative). L: [Mind door adverting > consciousness is mind-consciousness-element and the same as 5-door > determining consciousness. There is no mind door process determining > consciousness.] N: I would like to turn it around for more clarity. The mind-door adverting-consciousness, manodvaaraavajjana citta, adverts to the object through the mind-door, it is the first citta in that process. The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta before that process. Now this type of citta performs in the sense-door process the function of determining, votthapana. It is then followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. We should not think of the conventional term determining, it is so fast, only one moment, and it all happens because of accumulated conditions. Thus, it is the same type of citta as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but here it performs a different function and it is called after its function determining, votthapanacitta. We shall see that one type of citta performs different functions at different occasions. L: 3. Mind-consciousness-element. These are all the other kinds of > consciousness including one kind of adverting (above), N: thus, adverting through the mind-door. L: investigation, > determining, root, registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death. Any > others? N: When you say root, I think, you mean javanacittas. Root is not a function, but javana is. Let us say, all other cittas, including rupaavacara cittas, arupaavacara cittas, lokuttara cittas. L: Next, all resultant (vipaka) consciousness is caused by (result of) root > consciousness, profitable or unprofitable. The phrase "resultant > mind-consciousness-element without root cause" means not accompanied by > root cetasikas. N: yes, L: All resultant consciousnesses, profitable and > unprofitable, are unaccompanied by root cetasikas except for one class > of profitable mind-consciousness element N: So, here again I would add: mind-consciousness element that is kusala vipaaka. Adding reultant. When speaking of the kaamaavacara cittas (not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas) we can call it mahaa-vipaaka. These can be accompanied by two or three hetus, roots. L: that performs the functions of > registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness. This means > that this kind of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death > consciousness is accompanied by nongreed (alobha), nonhatred (adosa), or > nonbewilderment (amoha). N: Two or three hetus. Not always by amoha or paññaa. L: This kind of profitable mind-consciousness-element WITH roots that > functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is the rebirth, bhavanga, and > death consciousness of a healthy being [I think???]. The profitable > mind-consciousness-element WITHOUT roots that functions as the rebirth, > bhavanga, and death consciousness is of a human being born with a > physical or mental impairment. It is profitable because it is profitable > to be reborn as a human. The UNprofitable mind-consciousness-element > without roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is of a > lower realm being. N: Yes, the last one pertains to rebirth in an unhappy plane. The type that is kusala vipaaka is the result of a weak kusala kamma. Now, the lowest class of heavenly beings, the earth bound devas, can be reborn with this type, but they are not mentioned as being handicapped. I translated a study about this of the Foundation Bulletin. When we see someone who is handicapped, this may have happened in the womb after rebirth. So, nobody can tell with what type of rebirth-consciousness he was born. L: Rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness are always resultant and > always have the same object. The object for the next life is the object > of the last consciousness _process_ before the death consciousness in > this life. N: Yes. L:The sphere, and health in the case of sense-sphere, that one > is born into is determined by root consciousnesses in any previous life. N: Yes, by kamma, nobody can change that. Conditions help us to understand anattaa. ****** More about elements. It is difficult to remember what is mind-element and what is mind-consciousness-element. One way is the following. Mind-element only functions in the sense-door process: the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of receiving-consciousness (one kusala vipaaka and one akusala vipaaka). Mind-consciousness element: see above. The santiira.na-citta, investigation-consciousness, is included, it also functions in the sense-door process but also in the mind-door process as retention or registration, and in process freed occasions. The votthapanacitta in the sensedoor is actually the same type of citta as the the mind-door adverting consciousness, thus this is also included in mind-consciousness-element. Nibbaana is also an element, it is the unconditioned element. ****** Nina. 36107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician Hello Phil, (and Howard), op 07-09-2004 00:22 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described > as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. N: Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning, Co to the First book of the Minor Collection, Ch I, p. 15. One of the Bhantes of dsg wrote long ago a very good post about the Buddha as a physician. I also appreciate the way Howard formulated: cognizing by citta: H: > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makescittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am concerned.> Well observed and formulated, and such a good reminder. We can repeat the word anatta, but we do not realize it. I shall go more into this. Nina. 36108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Azita, The study should go slowly, then there will not be discouragement. I like what you say here:Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each other, how they condition each other...This will clarify a great deal so that we have more understanding of anatta. But we should not just speak about conditions in general, but realize more: what type of conditions. Nina. op 07-09-2004 05:28 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > My opinion is that we cannot hear enuff of nama and rupa; citta, > cetasika and rupa - what else is there? > Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each > other, how they condition each other - well I think the study just > gets harder and often a condition for me to get very despondent, and > I see that as defilements that want things to be different to the way > they appear..... 36109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi Howard, This and other posts of yours on citta were the occasion for me to reflect more about citta as non-self. I just add a few observations, things that I find helpful for myself. See below. op 05-09-2004 18:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. > Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of > experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In the > scheme > of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a > subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that apprehends > an > apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the > relating of > two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, > and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. > Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I > object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important > suttas > in clarifying this issue. N: We have to be quite honest to ourselves: do we take seeing and visible object together, do we take hearing and sound together? We still do. They seem to be , as you formulate it. But from the Dhamma I learnt that we have so much ignorance accumulated.See the dependent origination. Whenever we think and speculate and the objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we do so with akusala citta, and this is always accompanied by ignorance. Conclusion: I am very suspicious about what I believe I experience. I am just blinded. I learn from the teachings that seeing and visible object have different conditions. Seeing is dependent on eyesense and visible object. See Narada, p. 34, base-prenascence dependence. Citta is assisted by accompanying cetasikas that condition it. Such as feeling, sañña, concentration. Seeing has the minimum amount of assisting cetasikas, but after that there are more, and they occur precisely at the right time, it is amazing. When it is time for kusala, the sobhana cetasikas are there to help: with saddha you can overcome all obstacles, sati does not waste the opportunity for kusala. There is detachment so that you do not think of yourself. There is energy, you can do what you did not think possible before. When it is time for akusala there are ignorance, shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness. They are there immediately as soon as akusala citta arises. It is all arranged because of the right conditions. Visible object has other conditions: it can be produced by kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. I know you find that hard to accept. Anyway, visible object itself does not depend on eyesense; it has conditions different from those of visible object. Visible object is not accompanied by cetasikas. As for me, when I consider different conditions it also helps me to understand that nama is quite different from rupa. Citta and cetasika are closely associated, they condiiton each other by association condition, whereas rupa can never be so closely associated. Nama and rupa, even when they are conascent, are conditioning each other by way of dissociation condition. Narada: p. 68. But I also find the sheaves of reed a good simile. In the five khandha planes nama and rupa are together, condition one another. But they are not the same. Then we have the functions of citta. We do not need to fall over the word function, these functions merely show the manifold conditions. Seeing or hearing are not so much actions, they are conditioned events. Lobha is a conditioned event, paññaa is a conditioned event. I quote again about elements, dhaatus: Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis, I, p.93): Seeing has conditions entirely different from hearing. Thus, there is not one citta that then sees, then hears. If we think in that way we cling to a self. In the suttas it is stressed: when he sees visible object through the eyes, when he hears sound through the ears, etc. Lobha arises with a citta and it performs a function in a process: javana, running through the object. It has different conditions again: the latent tendency of lobha condiitons the arising of lobha with the citta. It is conditioned by way of natural strong dependence-condition. It is very necessary to be precise about the different types of conditions. It is not enough to speak in general terms about conditions and relations. All this info, I find, can sink in and be a condition for direct awareness and understanding, however slow this process may be. But if we want to make it fast, the clinging to an idea of self is in the way. Nina. 36110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts. no 9. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts. no. 9 Sutta: Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). **** Commentary: Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. N: He can be aware of his unwholesome thoughts and see them as only conditioned elements. Then they are his subject of meditation. When there is awareness and understanding of akusala as naama, the citta at that moment is kusala citta and it is accompanied by calm. The Co. compares the bhikkhu¹s development of vipassana and his attainment of arahatship to the sitting posture of that person. The bhikkhu who spent the whole day with the fruition-attainment (phala samaapatti), experiencing nibbaana, is compared to the person who was lying down. N: Those who have developed jhaana and vipassanaa and attained enlightenment can, after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away experience nibbaana again with fruition-consciousness(lokuttara vipaakacitta). We see that the postures of body, walking, standing, sitting and laying down, symbolize different stages of development of pañña even to the degree of arahatship. Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts can be abandoned. N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true calm. ***** Nina. 36111 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Addition to Intro Vis. 98 Addition to Intro Vis. 98: The Vis. speak about two positions and five positions of the mind-consciousness element that is the santiira.na-citta which is kusala vipaaka. In Pali the word for position is: .thaana: meaning: place, occasion, condition. The Tiika deals in detail with the occasion or position of santiira.na-citta, depending on its function, be it within a process or process-freed, as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. It indicates which citta precedes it and which citta succeeds it, and with what function it occurs in the interval between the preceding and the succeeding citta. When santiira.na-citta performs the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death, it arises on many occasions. As bhavangacitta, for example, it arises in between the processes. It arises throughout life. When we consider the different functions of cittas which are dependent on conditions it helps us to see cittas as elements devoid of self. Elements are classified in different ways and one way is the classification by way of eighteen elements, including: the ruupas which are the five senses and the five classes of sense objects, the five pairs of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc) which are pañca-viññaa.na-dhaatu, mano dhaatu (adverting-consciousness and two types of receiving-consciousness), dhamma-dhaatu (cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana) and mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu (all cittas except pañca-viññaa.na-dhaatu and mano dhaatu). I quote from Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis, I, p.93): ******* Nina. 36112 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:43am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Sarah: Dear Htoo, (RobM & Phil at the end), We were discussing jhanas and I think you had suggested that in your jhana series: ..... S:I may have misunderstood you, but I wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not misunderstand. Jhanas are always pure. When anatta was still not known there were jhana practitioners. Jhanas exist even before The Buddha. Do you assume that jhanas only appeared after The Buddha? --------------------------------------------------------------------- S: All dhammas are within the `boundaries of Buddhism'. There is no such thing as a `Buddhist jhana' or `non-Buddhist jhana' in the sense that the realities, the cittas, have their characteristics and functions regardless of how they are described or any views about them ..... > You responded: > H:> Were Devimala, Alara and Udaka Buddhists? What about their jhanas? > > > > Did they do any vipassana? ..... S: i'm not sure if there is any fundamental disagreement between us here or not, but after some delay, I'm going to probe a little further. No offence intended at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) I understand. You are always good. I must thank for your support. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In terms of the cittas, is there any difference at all in a samatha development citta or a jhana citta of one who has heard the Buddha's teachings and developed a little or a lot of vipassana and one who hasn't? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Totally different. In what terms? Before The Buddha anatta was not recognised even in thinking. Characterwise, they are not different. [ ?? More confusion? :-)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Obviously one who hasn't heard of the Buddha or Dhamma will not have these as objects of samatha, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are sunna kappas that is the time when there is no Sammasambuddha at all through out the existence of that earth. Still there are paccekabuddhas. They are arahats. They are jhanalabhi. But they are not Buddhists. They are not the pupils of The Sammasambuddha. They are not the disciples of The Sammasambuddha. Kappa where there are maximum of 5 Sammasambuddhas, in between these Sammasambuddha that is when the Teachings do not exist any more due to regression, there do exist people who attain jhana and are reborn in brahma bhumis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ..for example, but lets say the object -- say breath or foulness of the body or kasina is the same. What would be the difference in the cittas which take these as objects? What about the panna which accompanies these cittas, how is it different? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Every thing is different. But when summarised, characterwise some fall into the same group. I have told you above. If anatta is not taught, jhanas will not be the same as in jhanas of anattavadis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Of course, subsequent cittas will be very different, but we were talking about the development of samatha and the understanding required from the very beginning for anyone. Intentions or wishes to have jhanas, rooted in attachment, for example, will be equally useless whether one calls oneself a Buddhist or not, don't you think? ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have included this in one of my message. As soon as attachment arise, there is no jhana at all. Lobha never accompanies pannindriya cetasika. 'somanassa sahagatam ditthi gata vippayutta asankharika citta' and 'somanassa sahagatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta' are completely different. But for those who do not have enough knowledge and wisdom will not know the difference between these 2 cittas. Why? Both are somanassa. Both will be very happy. Both devoid ditthi cetasika. Both are asankharika cittas. If the difference is not known, then miccha-samadhi arises and the practitioner will attach his miccha-samadhi. Why? Ekaggata cetasika can arise both in kusala and akusala citta. But miccha-samadhi is never rupavacara jhana citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: On another topic -- your very helpful suggestions to RobM, he's veryfortunate to have this assistance. Just a couple of points which surprised me. In (03), you introduced the term `media' to replace his term `space'. I assume (but haven't checked) he was referring to aakaasa rupa, usu. translated as space. I didn't quite follow your reasoning, but I understand aakaasa to `delimit' other rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This can be tested. Sound does not pass the space where there is no matter at all. In the water, we can hear sound. Solid brings the loudest, liquid in the middle and air the softest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:Also for water, you suggested aapo `means saliva'. Again, this would be a rather unusual translation. Aapo has the function of cohesion of other rupas, surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This saliva is the word that I taken from a Venerable. In catudhatuvavatthana kammatthana, there are Aapo such as urine, tear, saliva, digestive secretions, enzymes etc etc. But only saliva works for conduction of taste to taste buds which again will carry along taste fibres of nerves to the brain. Urine does not work here which is Apo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Finally, for earth (pathavi), you suggested `nerve'. You did say it may not make sense to some learners;-). Again, earth is the common translation, but it could be solidity or hardness perhaps. When we touch the keyboard or door, pathavi is experienced, but even if we don't touch them, the kalapas of rupas making up the keyboard or door still contain these rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not simple pathavi. It is thaddha pathavi. Without which pathavi-photthabba will not be realised. Can paraplegic people sense touch in their feet? There do exist pathavi in their feet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: On sanna, you particularly liked RobM's description of `looking for distinguishing marks.....'. I'm not sure we could say that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is your sense. I totally agree with Rob M here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: One point I'm lazy to double-check is on javana cittas. I agree with you that it's not strictly true to say that each javana citta in the sequence is the same and you elaborated well. As you mentioned, the 1st is weakest and can only bring results in this life, depending on conditions. The last is next weakest and you said it `gives rise to its effect starts from immediate next life'. Do you mean this life or next life, depending on conditions or only next life? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: the 7th javana citta will give rise its effect in the second life. It is not in this life. Next life. That is immediate next life. I have said this. If this life is 1st, next life will be 2nd and others are called 3rd and after. 1st is very weak. If it does not give rise it effect in this life (1st life ) it will not give rise any further effect in later lives including 2nd life. the 7th javana will give its effect only in 2nd life. The middle 5 javanas are like wheel print that follow the hoof-print of cart-drawer cows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You said the `middle 5 javana cittas give rise their results from the third life to as long as in the samsara'. Can these really not bring a result in this life or the next one even though they are the 'stronger' cittas? Thx for any clarification, Htoo or RobM. I know Rob has written about it before. It's rather academic, but if one's writing a book, better to be accurate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is from Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha. I also believe so. No. The middle 5 are not for this life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Ok - enough, I'm already in over my head in these details;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are welcome Sarah. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s Htoo, apologies for mixing up topics under your thread subjects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. Really fine. No problem. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing 36113 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:56am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 14 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The practitioner needs to practice and exercise his achieved first jhana so that it becomes sharper and sharper. After a long exercising period, he will notice that vitakka ( initial application ) or wandering thought may bring down his jhana to kama thought or kama vitakka. He must be conscious about that. Vitakka is the nearest enemy that threatens his first jhana and he must be very careful with vittaka and its actions. Frequently vitakka may lead to kama thoughts or byapada or destructive thoughts and many other nivarana-related thoughts. He starts to dispassionate vitakka and wants to leave vitakka alone and he really wants to go his jhana without vitakka. So he will try again practising his kasina ' WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE...' without vitakka. This is very difficult to contemplate if someone has not practiced kasina. Here is a simile. There was a king ruling a country. He had a very familiar minister. Once a man wanted to meet the king. At first he had to do so with the help of his friend the minister. He frequently met the king. As he visited very frequently he became familiar with the king like his friend. So, his friend the minister no more needed to help him meeting the king at later phases. In this simile, the man is vicara and the minister is vitakka. At first without the minister ( vitakka ) the man ( vicara ) would not be able to meet with the king. But as he became familiar with the king the man ( vicara ) no more needs the help of the minister (vitakka ). In this way, the practitioner exercise his jhana again on kasina patibhaga ( counter image ) without vitakka. With practice in the absence of nivarana ( hindrances ) and vitakka he will be able to go on his jhana and the second jhana is now ready to arise. May you all be able to miss out vitakka from your first jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36114 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 9/7/04 1:18:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > It seems that I create time just for this one reason. > To extend life of self, preserve it till next self will be > created and established. > Thats the only observation I've had. > ====================== That's interesting. :-) Your introspection is fresh and interesting. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36115 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 11:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 057 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After 54 kamavacara cittas, we have discussed 12 of 15 rupavacara cittas. The 4th jhana citta have been discussed in the previous post. Again, the practitioner needs to exercise and practise his 4th jhana to be proficient. Through the five exercises, the practitioner becomes to realise that sukha jhana factor is just a close friend of piti and at any time piti may come back again. If so, he will fall back to 3rd jhana from his current 4th jhana. To avoid this he has to depart sukha and he has to stay only in ekaggata. If he cannot stay in ekaggata alone, he will possibly drawn back step by step down to 3rd, 2nd, 1st and then he will be back to kamavacara cittas. If this happen, re-developing of jhana will take his energy. By contemplating on his jhana factors that is sukha and ekaggata, he realises that sukha is weaker than ekaggata and he dispassionates sukha and tries his jhana without sukha. When there is no more sukha and he is well calm, if conditions are right, then the 5th jhana citta is ready to arise. When arises, it arises only once and fall to bhavanga cittas for indefinite time. At a time bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas arise scrutinising what has happened just before and then he realises that he attains the 5th rupa jhana. This again needs exercises and practice to become much much more proficient. In this 5th jhana citta, there is only ekaggata as jhana factor and instead of sukha, upekkha vedana replace sukha. This citta is called 5th jhana citta. Above this jhana are arupa jhanas. But all arupa jhanas are 5th jhana cittas as they have only ekaggata. Arupa jhana cittas have upekkha vedana. the 5th jhana citta that has been described above is 59th citta of 89 total cittas. It is called 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. This citta gives rise to kamma and this kamma will give rise to arising of rupavacara rupavipaka citta. This citta is 64th citta and it is 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupavipaka citta'. If 5th jhana citta arises in arahats, it is called rupacvacara rupakiriya citta. In its full name, it is 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupakiriya citta. This citta is 69th citta of 89 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36116 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo (& RobM), [Azita really in passing only], Just a brief note of thanks. I’ll look at your other points later with interest as usual. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: the 7th javana citta will give rise its effect in the second > life. It is not in this life. Next life. That is immediate next life. > I have said this. If this life is 1st, next life will be 2nd and > others are called 3rd and after. > > 1st is very weak. If it does not give rise it effect in this life > (1st life ) it will not give rise any further effect in later lives > including 2nd life. > > the 7th javana will give its effect only in 2nd life. > > The middle 5 javanas are like wheel print that follow the hoof-print > of cart-drawer cows. .... S: OK, I’ve just found the detail in Bodhi’s CMA too, thank you: CMA: V#20 for those who wish to check. You are quite correct. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Abh-vibhaavinii, transl PTS, p175) also gives further explanation and details the reasons for this. Interesting. [RobM, more on supportive (upatthambaka kamma) in CMA p201 and in the comy just mentioned p174. From the latter: “A wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself, becomes the condition for prolonging the result of another kamma or, in keeping with the capacity of the generating kamma, becomes the condition for prolonging the activity of a result that is pleasant or unpleasant by not giving rise to the conditions which cut it off and giving rise to the conditions which enhance it, is called supporting.” Then more on obstructive and destructive kamma in both texts -- also not bringing their own results but frustrating or preventing other kamma from bringing results. I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' other results. Htoo’s detail above interested me because often we talk (conventionally) about immediate results of actions, such as your super example of kindness which you wrote about when your Abh student passed away. We all understand like this. But we really can’t know what results (vipaka) follows from what actions (kamma), can we? Nothing simple about it!! Better not think too much about it. As K.Sujin would say, the pariyatti is now, knowing about the present proliferation and clinging to a story about the details in my case;-). [Azita, what about the understanding when there is frustration or despondency about details or anything else - again that’s the pariyatti, not the working out the details at the time]. Htoo, thanks for your patience in repeating the details for me that I was too lazy or rushed to find before. Back to sleep! Metta, Sarah ======= 36117 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/7/04 1:41:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > This and other posts of yours on citta were the occasion for me to reflect > more about citta as non-self. > ===================== This makes me happy. As I mentioned, I believe it was to Herman, that even when there is disgreement on an issue on DSG, the process of interacting with each other here causes us to consider deeply and well, and this leads us to enhance and clarify - and, on rare occasion ;-), to even redirect - our understanding. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36118 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, R: "No problem in creating a chart, but it won't be ready for a few days as I am really, really busy at the moment." L: That's great. Take your time; there's no hurry. Thanks. Larry 36119 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Htoo, H: "The dead can never be conscious. Dead-consciousness does not make any sense." L: You're completely right. I must have made a typo. ~Nanamoli has "death" for "cuti". Btw, I told you I was using the PTS trans. but that was a mistake also. It is the BPS trans. Larry 36120 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hello Dan, and all D > The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > N:> > There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each > citta is > > accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same > object, > > but which each perform their own function while they assist the > citta in > > cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the > citta. Ph: Thanks for bringing this question up. I'm having a more basic problem - well, problem isn't the right word really because it's a part of learning - - how to interpret the word "cetasika?" And that comes from something even more basic - "how to interpret citta?" What is a citta? This basic lack of clear understanding of what we are talking about when we talk about citta and cetasika (and then on to things like their functions) arose thanks to this bit from Howard: H > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes >cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am > concerned. Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what cittas *are*, let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental energies, or what? I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can truly understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as with anatta and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and other tough nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how cetasikas differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet truly know what they are. I thank Howard for bringing that to my attention. It won't stop me from benefiting from studying this book, but I was reminded about how much I *don't* understand, which is good. So needless to say, I can't help to clarify "function." D > My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also thought that in addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is good and then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because there was impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in thinking too much about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up missing the opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. All this thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I do have faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good Dhamma friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more direct will be revealed to the patient mind. I'm reading "Deeds of Merit" by K Sujin in order to increase my understanding of when there are opportunities for good deeds. BTW, thanks for your comments on the importance of Pali the other day. Your example re "greed" was very helpful. Metta, Phil 36121 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:57pm Subject: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hello all This was posted at a Brahma-Viharas group I belong to. Every time I see it I find it very powerful and helpful but then I forget about it again! Please allow me to share it with you: " . . . consider the kindness of strangers. So here we think about all the people whom we don't know, without whose efforts, we wouldn't be able to function, we wouldn't be able to survive. Think of all the people and the animals, all the living creatures that go into growing our food, transforming the food, packaging it and selling it. All the people who work in the mines, at the iron and the steel factories, the truck factories and the automobile factories, to produce the vehicles that then we drive, or the vehicles that transport our food to the store. "Let's think of all the people who build the roads that we drive on. People who work at the public utilities board so that we have gas and electricity and water, things we take so much for granted. That we wouldn't have these things without the work and the effort of so many people. Think of the people who work at the telephone company. Think of the people who work in government offices. Again our lives are so intertwined with everybody in the society, not just in our own country and community, but internationally now. That we've received so much from these others. We don't know the people who made our house, electricians, the carpenters, engineers, construction workers - so many people made our home and made the office we work in, the other buildings we use, so let's open our heart to feel the connection and gratitude to them for all the work they've done. They may not have had us in mind particularly when they did their work, but that's not important. The bottom-line is, that they worked hard, and we're receiving benefit from them. And we don't even know who those people are to be able to thank them. "When we think of how many goods we use that have been made in other countries, who are those people who made the goods, what are their [inaudible] conditions, what pain and happiness do they have, and think of how we use the things that they've made with so much effort, and we don't even know who they are to be able to say "Thank you". And yet without their efforts and their actions, we wouldn't have the things that we use in our daily life. So make many, many, many examples from your life. Just take one object in the room where you are, and trace back how many living beings were involved in its existence. How many living beings we've received kindness from. And again let your heart open in a feeling of gratitude and affection for those beings, even though we don't know them, because they have been kind to us." ~ Ven. Thubten Chodron, "Meditation on Kindness and Gratitude and Love" 36122 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:06pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Phil, Speaking of egg-on-face typos, I've just looked at my last message to you: > KH: There was a typo. I am one who sees the Dhamma `as' >prescriptive not `is' prescriptive. I'm not that sure of myself. :-) `Prescriptive' should have read `descriptive' - and the writer should go on being unsure of himself. :-) You wrote: --------------- > I still am wondering about whether, in the beginning, people can benefit or not from following prescribed actions, even if in wrong view of self. The other day Nina taught me/us about the various degrees of defilements and the ways of eradicating them.. I still wonder if progress cannot be made on gross defilements, the ones that involve transgressions, by following prescribed actions. For example, the methods of removing distracting thoughts seem explicit and prescriptive. Nina mentions at one point that doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings more akusala unless sati is involved.(If I recall correctly) But it seems to me - for what that's worth - that following these instructions could help when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. > ----------------------- I think I know what you mean: If we are putting a lesser form of akusala in place of a greater form of akusala, we will be doing ourselves a favour (of sorts). In fact, isn't that one of the methods Nina was talking about? (Not sure.) In any case, I am sure we ordinary people use that method every day whether we have heard the Dhamma or not. A person might be tempted to hit someone but then settle for a lesser form of unwholesomeness - by, for example, using derogatory speech. But will the same thing happen when we make a ritual of it? Firstly, we would need to be sure the bad kamma we are rejecting is worse than the bad kamma we are accepting. Do any of us know prevailing conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at all; we might have just been thinking about it.) Secondly, how do we direct our mind to engage in derogatory speech? It could just as easily happen that we become frustrated by our lack of self- expression, lose our temper, and hit the person twice as hard! It is good to understand how kamma-reducing methods work - understanding will lead to practice when the conditions are right - but it is not good to make a ritual of them. Instead, we should leave them to the natural course of daily life. --------------------- Ph: > So I wonder if it could be said that the Dhamma is prescriptive in the prevention of transgressions in the Vinaya (sp?) and becomes more descriptive as we move into consideration of medium defilements in the suttas, and then thoroughly descriptive re eradication of subtle defilements in Abhidhamma? ---------------------- Nice theory! But I think it would be better to understand how the Dhamma can never be prescriptive. The word `prescriptive' applies in conventional reality where there are living beings, places to go and things to do. A doctor can prescribe that we "go to bed and take these pills" and we will (usually) do as we are told, but, in absolute reality, only conditioned dhammas have appeared and disappeared - without any control whatsoever. ----------- Ph: > In any case, thanks again for that juicy line! ----------- Use it in good health! Just watch for typos. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36123 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello all > > This was posted at a Brahma-Viharas group I belong to. Every time I see > it I find it very powerful and helpful but then I forget about it again! > Please allow me to share it with you: > > " . . . consider the kindness of strangers. So here we think about > all the people whom we don't know, without whose efforts, we wouldn't > be able to function, we wouldn't be able to survive. Think of all the > people and the animals, all the living creatures that go into growing > our food, transforming the food, packaging it and selling it. Hi Phil Thanks for posting this reflection. I am wearing a pair of leather boots at the moment. If I reflect that the cow died and provided its leather as an act of kindness, is that right or am I fooling myself? The boots may well have been made in a 3rd world "sweatshop" by a child supporting its family. Should I think that that child worked on the boots as an act of kindness for the eventual owner? Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of sync with the reality of samsara. How do you *use* the reflection, if that is the right word? Best wishes Andrew 36124 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Re: "Deeds of Merit" - Avoidance of kusala through wholesome deeds Hello all I found a typo in my muddled post. " When we are not performing dana, sila or bhavana, there is akusala citta, so at those moments we are ¡Ègiving up¡É defilements, I guess." Obviously it is when we *are* performing dana, sila or bhavana that there is *not* akusala citta, so we could be "giving up" defilements, or abandoning them, or taking steps to eliminate them. Thus K Sujin's "Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements" - I guess. Metta, Phil 36125 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Andrew > Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of > sync with the reality of samsara. > > How do you *use* the reflection, if that is the right word? I think I use it as a fabric softener, if you will. We can become too rigid and press too hard. These kind of soft contemplations help give rise to what Nina once memorably (for me) called "gentle cittas." We need times to be soft and gentle in our approach to Dhamma to balance the times that we press hard to crack tough nuts. I do a lot of these kind of soft contemplations in the morning, with my coffee. They seem to set the tone for the day so when I go out in the world a friendly feeling, a "we're in the same boat" feeling arises quite often on its own. > If I reflect that the cow died and provided its > leather as an act of kindness, is that right or am I fooling myself? > The boots may well have been made in a 3rd world "sweatshop" by a > child supporting its family. Should I think that that child worked > on the boots as an act of kindness for the eventual owner? As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or animal in question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard work, and sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let yourself go with it. > Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of > sync with the reality of samsara. No problem. It's certainly out of sync with our daily reality of people - that is, if we go out into the world with too much determination to get at the truth. I'm all for going soft and using this kind of ""fabric softener" as I call it for a few minutes every morning. I do things like imagining all the people rushing to work on their bicycles, walking in a hurry to get to the station, riding the crowded trains, and see them as trapped in samsara, as I am, and wish us all well. And then when I go out in the world and see such scenes, as I do all the time, that feeling of wishing them well arises on its own. All day, dozens of times a day. It's all middle way. If we only have this kind of practice we'd be deluding ourselves for sure. I was for awhile until I found this group and Abhidhamma. Metta, Phil 36126 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta Chart for Vism. in Dsg Files Hi Rob. This is great. I didn't find any errors but I have a couple of suggestions. 1. The mind element needs to be identified (35, 55, 70). 2. Perhaps 40, 41, 56, 71, and 72 should be identified as mind-consciousness-element. These are identified as such in the text. 3. In addition to the above perhaps there could be a footnote as follows: Consciousness-element: (34)-(38) and (50)-(54), 10 kinds. Mind-element: (39), (55), (70), 3 kinds. Mind-consciousness-element: all the rest, 76 kinds. 4. Somewhere it should say that Re-birth and death consciousnesses are grouped with life-continuum. 5. Perhaps bhavanga and javana should be life-continuum and impulsion. These are ~Nanamoli's translations. 6. Maybe there could be a footnote with the pali for all the principal terms. 7. The footnote numbers on bhavanga for 42-49 are a little confusing, 2 means 3 roots and 3 means 2 roots. Can we switch these? 8. Instead of "Rootless" ~Nanamoli uses "Indeterminate". This is in the text as well. 9. Perhaps it should be clarified that "Functional" is under the general heading of "Indeterminate" since it is on a separate page. I liked your additions. They definitely added to clarity and comprehensiveness. Good job! Larry 36127 From: Egbert Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon, > > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > > ========================================== > > > Preface > > > ******* > > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. > > > > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > A little introduction which will hopefully clarify what I am about to say. What is, is. It is (beyond negation or discussion). It is (being). Truth, falsity or meaninglessness are relations between concepts of what is (real). What is true, false or meaningless is established by reason. It is not real. It is known. What is willed is what is conceived. What is conceived is what is willed. It is not real. It is not known. It is perceived. > I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and > not anyone else ;-)) > Now I read you as implying that I have no basis for the statements I am making other than my own intentions. If that is your implication, then you are factually wrong. What was taught by the Buddha, as opposed to what was taught by others, is not a matter of wishful thinking. It is reasonably verifiable. It appears to me that what you lay at my feet is actually true of some others in this group, who promulgate what they insist on as having been taught by the Buddha, despite all indications to the contrary. For them, and not for me, there is no other basis for the perception of what was taugth by the Buddha than the will for it to be so. In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter a hoot. What is real is not affected by what is wanted or what is known. Kind Regards Herman 36128 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Nina, Thanks for your corrections. I will go on to 99 unless you want some more time. Larry 36129 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 8:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Phil As you know, I live on a farm. We have a lemon tree heavy with fruit at the moment and you might think I have been sucking on lemons all morning! (-: I do understand your meaning regarding the reflection and don't want to discourage you at all. Just a few comments below for the sake of completeness: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: [snip] > As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or animal in > question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard work, and > sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let yourself > go with it. AT: In the above, "an act of kindness" is clearly a conventional term (a concept) and thus no satipatthana would be involved in taking it as mental object. That's not to say that satipatthana may not arise in subsequent moments with dhamma as object. If we only have this kind of practice we'd be > deluding ourselves for sure. AT: That's an important point you're obviously very mindful of. I've recently been reflecting on how different the Dhamma is when viewed as a recognition of ultimate realities. For example, whenever I go into my house, a butcherbird flies in with me and helps itself to a feed of catfood on the floor. It is a wild bird that I have tamed over many years and has very little fear of humans. I suppose out of "kindness" I fed it initially, but it has now become quite a nuisance and inconvenience to me. Once it gets inside, it takes its time and I have to leave the door open for it to fly out again. The open door is an invitation to other animals to come in and make a mess which I have to clean up later. I try to shut the door quickly to keep the butcherbird out, but he has no fear and flies in through my legs. Once he is inside, I tolerate him and never harm him or hassle him. Conventionally, you could say this was "an act of kindness". But what is actually going on in my mind is mostly unwholesome - annoyance, impatience - and the odd verbal "b*** bird". I suppose that is what I was alluding to - we can call something "kindness" in the conventional sense, but there is more wisdom in knowing the realities it comprises. Bye for now AndrewT 36130 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:03pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Do any of us know prevailing > conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at > all; we might have just been thinking about it.) _______ Dear Kenh What an amazingly deep point. We know from studying the Dhamma that there is no self - only namas and rupas arising and ceasing: visuddhimagga XVIII24 " 'this is mere mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person'. Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. Wise teachers of the past (and present) give many types of pratice that helped in life and gave some comfort. But it is only the Buddha who could teach about anatta - so it is well worth learning about this aspect otherwise we are not taking full advantage of his teachings. +++++++++++ Secondly, how do we > direct our mind to engage in derogatory speech? It could just as > easily happen that we become frustrated by our lack of self- > expression, lose our temper, and hit the person twice as hard! > > It is good to understand how kamma-reducing methods work - > understanding will lead to practice when the conditions are right - > but it is not good to make a ritual of them. Instead, we should > leave them to the natural course of daily life. > > --------------------- ! Robertk 36131 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, different translations use different terms. I have also seen the term vivid. As to mind-door: the word clear is used for a process with tadarammana, thus when the mind-door process runs its full course. It is less clear without tadarammana citta. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha Pali uses for the mind-door process: vibhuuta, clear and avibhuuta, obscure. Nina. op 07-09-2004 12:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Dear Nina, this is the area where I am not clear of even though > I may have may own reasoning. I mean why are there clear and unclear? > > Which is clear process? Is that those with tadarammana? > Which is unclear process? Is that those without tadarammana? 36132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Dan, op 07-09-2004 14:43 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > >> Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the >> teaching of the Buddhas. >> Dhammapada, vs. 183 > > My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? N: Excellent. Without purifying the mind we do not even know what is kusala and what is akusala. We have to begin developing right understanding of dhammas. Without right understanding we are nowhere. > D: The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." N: In Pali kicca. Citta and cetasikas are active, they have a task. Cetasikas are the helpers of citta. And they help each other! Paññaa penetrates the true nature of realities and it is compared to a skilled archer. It needs concentration, otherwise it is wobbly, its hand is unsteady. It needs viriya, otherwise nothing could be done. It needs calm. It needs saddha so that there is assurance. So, many cetasikas are helping friends, each doing their task. D: In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal > or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward > the goal. N: Different goals at different moments. Akusala citta is assisted by bad friends. They have a mean goal. Causing trouble!! When kusala citta with paññaa arises the goal is right understanding that eventually can eradicate defilements. I do not take so much to mathematics, this is quite a different subject, well over my head! I welcome your remarks and questions, they are inspiring, make one reflect more. Nina. 36133 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali canon in English and Pali? Hi Phil, op 07-09-2004 00:52 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me > to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali > and English. N; Just Pali: http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. 36134 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hello Phil, op 07-09-2004 12:22 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Nina mentions at one point that > doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in > one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings > more akusala unless sati is involved. N: It depends on the cittas, but the idea is to help the monk with kusala citta. Most of all with satipatthana. He is supposed to develop vipassana all the way, since his goal is arahatship. Thinking of the Buddha's virtues will help him and remind him to be aware, to follow the Buddha's teachings, that is, his teaching of satipatthana that is unique. It is not taught by anyone else. Nina. (If I recall correctly) But it seems > to me - for what that's worth- that following these instructions could help > when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. 36135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Agrios, op 07-09-2004 15:46 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, >> when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't >> we often take akusala for kusala? > > How do we know whats kusala and whats akusala? > I use second Noble Truth to find out, is this OK? N: Good question, it is difficult. We learn in theory, but we can only be sure by direct understanding, and this is only after the first stage of insight, knowing what is nama and what is rupa. We can begin to investigate in our life when the appear. We have some understanding, but then it is mostly by thinking. Knowing the cause of dukkha: but also the noble truths are realized much later, at enlightenment. A: Let me go a little further. > Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses > creating them? N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in processes. Sankhara has different meanings in different contexts. Sankhara dhammas: all condiitoned dhammas. sankharakkhandha: all cetasikas except feeling and sañña. In the Dependent Origination: abhisankhara: cetana cetasika or kamma: akusala kusala and arupa jhana. A: Or arahant experiences just six different experiences but is not > turning them into objects? N: whatever is experienced is an object. The arahat experiences objects through the six doorways in the planes where there are five khandhas, but he does not react with kusala citta or akusala citta. When his dying-citta has fallen away it is not succeeded by another citta. He has reached the end of the cycle. Nina. 36136 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Larry, let's go ahead!!! Nina. op 08-09-2004 04:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Thanks for your corrections. I will go on to 99 unless you want some > more time. 36137 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 0:48am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. There are four paramattha dhammas: citta cetasika rupa nibbana Citta, cetasika and rupa are sankhara dhammas, conditioned dhammas; they do not arise by themselves, each of them is conditioned by other phenomena. Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, visankhara dhamma or asankhata dhamma; it does not arise and fall away. Nibbana is the object of the supramundane citta, lokuttara citta, arising at the moment of enlightenment. What we call in convention language a "person" is in the absolute or ultimate sense only citta, cetasika and rupa. There is no lasting person or "self", there are only citta, cetasika and rupa which arise and then fall away immediately. Citta and cetasika are both namas, realities which can experience something, whereas rupa does not experience anything. Citta and cetasika arise together, but they are different types of paramattha dhammas. In order to explain the difference between citta and cetasika the commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Atthasalini, uses the simile of the king and his retinue. The king is the chief, the principal, and his retinue are his attendants. Even so are the cittas which arise in our daily life the leaders in cognizing the object, and the cetasikas are the assistants of citta. The cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment and then they fall away immediately. ******* [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36138 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hello all Something I've wanted to ask: N: >Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned >by the accompanying cetasikas. Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying cetasika? In the universals, which we'll see soon, there is phassa - contact. That, I guess, would be the first of the accompanying cetasikas to rise. And others would arise in an unfathomably rapid succession? Or are we to take it that the accompanying cetasikas are rising simultaneously with the citta? If the former is the case, would "(cittta) is conditioned by the accompanying cetasika" mean citta - > cetasika - > citta - > more cittas and cetasikas arising in a proximately conditioned way that we call "cittas with accompanying citta? (conditioned by cetasika) If citta is the king and and cetasikas the retinue, why does the retinue condition the king. Wouldn't citta, which I guess is so often akusala or kusala vipaka, condition the cetasikas rather than the other way around? If the latter is the case (accompanying cetasikas arise simultaneously) how can something that is arising simultaneously condition the thing it is arising with? I mean, aren't I correct in understanding that strictly speaking there can only be one paramattha dhamma rising and falling at a time? Thanks in advance. I have gathered so many wonderfully helpful responses that I've printed out and need to read through and absorb, so this will be the last question I ask for a few days. (Or so I say now.) It is good to ask questions but not when one is not taking proper time to reflect on the responses! Metta, Phil 36139 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > To my understanding, it is not part of the teaching that a comfortable lay > life is in any sense an obstacle to the development of insight, since it > is the degree of attachment to one's surroundings that is the crucial > factor. A general lessening attachment doesn't necessarily mean one will > change one's lifestyle; and conversely a renunciate lifestyle is no proof > of lack of clinging or wrong view. > > The homeless life is advantageous for those suited to (i.e., capable of) > living it. It is not advantageous for everyone; in fact, it could well be > disadvantageous for a person not suited to it (I think this is said in the > suttas). Hi Jon. I appreciate this discussion. I think it is very easy to fall into the desire for self-abnegation as a means to enhance spirituality. I think the Buddha explicitly rejected this as too extreme. In a sense the quashing of the self rather than seeing it as a formation through insight makes the self appear to be more real; an "enemy" that has to be defeated, and can create further ego-games. On the other hand, I wonder whether you wouldn't agree that certain practices could be seen as indulging the view of a self and that it might be more expedient to challenge that view? Best, Robert Ep. 36140 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Andrew To tell the truth, in the heat of my babbling I mistook you for a different Andrew, our friend A.L.... Ph:> > As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or > animal in > > question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard > work, and > > sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let > yourself > > go with it. > > AT: In the above, "an act of kindness" is clearly a conventional term > (a concept) and thus no satipatthana would be involved in taking it > as mental object. That's not to say that satipatthana may not arise > in subsequent moments with dhamma as object. Ph: Maybe because I used to (and maybe still do) write children's stories, or because of the accumulations that make me do that, I see a lot of value in lovely concepts. Certainly there is no satipatthana involved in the practice. I am not wielding lovely concepts as purposefully as I used to - I used to occasionally get teary-eyed thinking of the suffering of trees and houses being torn down - but I still think there is value in them as long as one doesn't mistake them for something deeper and truer. I remember reading about the two wings of wisdom and compassion, and after reading your post I googled it. It seems to be mainly in TIbetan Buddhism that this is discussed. In DSG we are devoted to developing wisdom (ie panna). Surely that is our forte, if you will. And we come to see that compassion arises or fails to arise due to conditions. In other traditions, compassion is used in a more intentional way. There is probably a lot of wrong view involved. But now that I'm feeling firmly in/on the wisdom wing I wonder if I'm ready to flirt with intentional compassion like I used to. We'll see. It certainly seems to make my cittas gentle and more patient during the day, without the danger of thinking that a peaceful calm is an end in itself like I used to. And now there is much better understanding of anatta, of the aggregates, of the four noble truths, than there ever was before - thanks to Abhidhamma. That will keep me away from woozy excesses. Yes, I think some practices that are clearly wrong in terms of wrong view can still be valuable when used intentionally, with awareness that there's wrong view, especially by beginners like myself. Playing with akusala? Maybe. Ph :> If we only have this kind of practice we'd be > > deluding ourselves for sure. > > AT: That's an important point you're obviously very mindful of. Ph: Yes, I am mindful of it. AT > I've recently been reflecting on how different the Dhamma is when > viewed as a recognition of ultimate realities. For example, whenever > I go into my house, a butcherbird flies in with me and helps itself > to a feed of catfood on the floor. It is a wild bird that I have > tamed over many years and has very little fear of humans. I suppose > out of "kindness" I fed it initially, but it has now become quite a > nuisance and inconvenience to me. Once it gets inside, it takes its > time and I have to leave the door open for it to fly out again. The > open door is an invitation to other animals to come in and make a > mess which I have to clean up later. I try to shut the door quickly > to keep the butcherbird out, but he has no fear and flies in through > my legs. Once he is inside, I tolerate him and never harm him or > hassle him. Conventionally, you could say this was "an act of > kindness". But what is actually going on in my mind is mostly > unwholesome - annoyance, impatience - and the odd verbal "b*** bird". Ph: But the kindness is also there. As an ultimate reality. Moments of kindness, moments of irritation. That doesn't take away the value of the kindness. Great anecdote. It reminds me of the cockroaches that I make an effort to take outside but often end up crushing or drowning by mistake when I get irritated and impatient about tracking them down and scooping them up gently. There is compassion as an ultimate reality, and aversion as an ultimate reality. I'm sure the effort to rescue them arose as a result of conventional thinking and lovely concepts of frightened little insects. Well, of course there is the precept against killing them.... > I suppose that is what I was alluding to - we can call > something "kindness" in the conventional sense, but there is more > wisdom in knowing the realities it comprises. Ph: Absolutely agreed. Absolutely. Nice talking with you, Andrew. Metta, Phil 36141 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 2:49am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) .... S: OK, I've just found the detail in Bodhi's CMA too, thank you: CMA: V#20 for those who wish to check. You are quite correct. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Abh-vibhaavinii, transl PTS, p175) also gives further explanation and details the reasons for this.Interesting. I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' other results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now, I understand that you understood. When we were discussing, I felt a bit strange that you said not all akusala cittas give rise to kamma and only kamma-patha actions will give rise to vipaka. Now you got it clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo's detail above interested me because often we talk (conventionally)about immediate results of actions, such as your super example of kindness which you wrote about when your Abh student passed away. We all understand like this. But we really can't know what results (vipaka) follows from what actions (kamma), can we? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is for Sammasambuddhas. Even great arahats may not know what results ( vipaka ) follows from what actions ( kamma ). The story of Venerable Culapanthaka is a good example. I have written this frequently in other groups. The daughter of a rich man in a city fell in love with a servant of thier own and ran away to a small village where the man's parents and relatives lived. When the 1st pregnancy arose, the woman asked her husband to go and give childbirth at her parents' home. Even though he was afraid to go, he agreed. But the baby was born on the way to parents' home. The baby was named 'PATH' or 'ROAD' or 'WAY'. In Pali, his name is 'Panthaka'. The same happened when the 2nd pregnancy arose. The second baby was also given 'Panthaka'. The older boy became 'Road Senior' or 'Mahapanthaka' and the younger became 'Road junior' or 'Culapanthaka'. Mahapanthaka joined the order of Sangha under The Buddha. He became an arahat with jhana powers. That is he had pubbenivasa nana or recollections of past live. His younger brother joined in later. Mahapanthaka taught him The Buddha's teachings. But Culapanthaka could not retain any full verse of Dhamma. Culapanthaka was drived out by his brother. He was crying going out through the gate of the monastry. There The Buddha was walking. The Buddha enquired the matter why he was crying and Culapanthaka replied so and so. The Buddha and 998 bhikkhus were about to go for a home visit for feeding. The Buddha did not allow Culapanthaka to leave. Instead gave him a piece of cloth and told him to cite rubbing that cloth as 'Rajo Haranam, Rajo Haranam'. With this single word, Culapanthaka became an arahat with full power. Here my aim is not to tell the story. But first Mahapanthaka drived his brother out. Because he did not know what past actions that Culapanthaka did, and he did not know that he would became an arahat with jhana powers. But The Buddha knew everything with regard to Culapanthaka. Once in a life, Culapanthaka was a very poor man. He was a porter in a poor village. He served the owner of peddy fileds. He had to plough preparing the field. Once in a summer season, as it was hot, he was sweaty and took a rest under a tree and wiped out all sweat with his white cloth. There he noticed the 'change' and felt a great shock. That was long long time ago and as kama arammana overwhelmed him again, he forgot this sanna. The buddha knew this in detail and as this would helped Culapanthaka, The Buddha just gave a piece of cloth and made him rub. Through arising of old sanna that there is a great change, panna develped in Culapanthaka step by step and in a matter of a single morning, he became a great arahat ( not ordinary arahat ) and he was given Etadattha or excellence in jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Nothing simple about it!! Better not think too much about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said, this is domain of Sammasambuddha. What we have to understand is that as long as akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise there will be vipaka cittas. As we cannot know when we will dry up all kilesa, it is better for us totally avoid akusala. Ayoniso manasikara or inproper attention will make doubt. So just leave these matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As K.Sujin would say, the pariyatti is now, knowing about the present proliferation and clinging to a story about the details in my case;-). Htoo, thanks for your patience in repeating the details for me that I was too lazy or rushed to find before. Back to sleep! Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I must also thank you in setting up DSG. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36142 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Nina and Dan - In a message dated 9/8/04 12:17:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Dan, > > op 07-09-2004 14:43 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > > > >>Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the > >>teaching of the Buddhas. > >>Dhammapada, vs. 183 > > > >My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > >much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > >action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > >appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > >is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? > N: Excellent. Without purifying the mind we do not even know what is kusala > and what is akusala. We have to begin developing right understanding of > dhammas. Without right understanding we are nowhere. > > > D: The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > N: In Pali kicca. Citta and cetasikas are active, they have a task. > Cetasikas are the helpers of citta. And they help each other! Paññaa > penetrates the true nature of realities and it is compared to a skilled > archer. It needs concentration, otherwise it is wobbly, its hand is > unsteady. It needs viriya, otherwise nothing could be done. It needs calm. > It needs saddha so that there is assurance. So, many cetasikas are helping > friends, each doing their task. > > D: In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal > >or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward > >the goal. > N: Different goals at different moments. Akusala citta is assisted by bad > friends. They have a mean goal. Causing trouble!! > When kusala citta with paññaa arises the goal is right understanding that > eventually can eradicate defilements. > I do not take so much to mathematics, this is quite a different subject, > well over my head! > I welcome your remarks and questions, they are inspiring, make one reflect > more. > Nina. > ============================ The foregoing all makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly the formulation uses personification and goal-directed terminology, but it could easily be reformulated in a completely impersonal and matter-of-fact way, I believe. The essential point as I see it is that the cetasikas are operations/activities, and that their effects are of consistent sorts that are traditionally, but not necessarily, characterized in terms of "accomplishment" and of "helping" each other like "supportive friends". The reality as I see it is of impersonal operations that have a regularity to their effect and are interrelated in specific ways. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36143 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/8/04 4:22:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello all > > Something I've wanted to ask: > > N: >Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned > >by the accompanying cetasikas. > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? In the universals, which we'll see soon, there is phassa - > contact. That, I guess, would be the first of the accompanying cetasikas to > rise. And others would arise in an unfathomably rapid succession? Or are we > to take it that the accompanying cetasikas are rising simultaneously with > the citta? > > If the former is the case, would "(cittta) is conditioned by the > accompanying cetasika" mean > > citta - >cetasika - >citta - >more cittas and cetasikas arising > in a proximately conditioned way that we call "cittas with accompanying > citta? > (conditioned > by cetasika) > If citta is the king and and cetasikas the retinue, why does the retinue > condition the king. Wouldn't citta, which I guess is so often akusala or > kusala vipaka, condition the cetasikas rather than the other way around? > > If the latter is the case (accompanying cetasikas arise simultaneously) > how can something that is arising simultaneously condition the thing it is > arising with? > > I mean, aren't I correct in understanding that strictly speaking there > can only be one paramattha dhamma rising and falling at a time? > > Thanks in advance. I have gathered so many wonderfully helpful responses > that I've printed out and need to read through and absorb, so this will be > the last question I ask for a few days. (Or so I say now.) It is good to > ask questions but not when one is not taking proper time to reflect on the > responses! > > Metta, > Phil > > =============================== As I understand it, Abhidhamma countenances conditionality that is co-occurring as well as conditionality that is preceding. You could have the circumstance, for example, that a condition of type D always and only arises when accompanied by conditions of types A, B, and C. The occurrence of D in such a case is one-sidedly dependent on A, B, and C, but that does not imply A, B, and C preceding D in time. Now, consciousness, viewed by the Dhamma as an operation, which I think of as the occurrence (presence) of specific content or "opportunity" for experience, is accompanied (at the same time, that is) by a variety of co-occuring mental operations that are the so called cetasikas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36144 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 5:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > A: Let me go a little further. > > Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses > > creating them? > N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge > on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in > processes. So there are objects before they've been experienced? metta, Agrios 36145 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Phil, I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the experiencing. "Yeah, but...yeah, but..." -- Hmmm... As my cousin used to say, "No 'yabbuts' around here!" "Yeah, but how can there an experience with no one to experience it?" Oh, for goodness sake! Why on earth would it be necessary to posit a mystical 'someone' to do the experiencing? There is simply the experiencing! What kinds of experiencing? Abhidhammatha sangaha gives a succint list of the kinds of experiencing that arise. There are 89 (or 121) distinctly different types enumerated. It can be very helpful to ponder these -- and in the pondering keep a check on the "yabbuts" all their different manifestations. Here, the word 'experiencing' is not the greatest because it does tend to evoke the response of "who experiences?" and is used so frequently in English other purposes. In particular, we need a word for 'experience at a single moment', and that is how 'citta' is used. Reading through the types of cittas, we see things such as seeing- consciousness and "one [lobha-rooted] consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted." The seeing- consciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the mind. The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and the yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). > Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what cittas *are*, > let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental energies, or what? > I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can truly > understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as with anatta > and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and other tough > nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how cetasikas > differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet truly know what > they are. Again, it is helpful to think in terms of bare experiencing, the types of bare experiencing, how to recognize the different types of bare experiencings -- all the time excising the notion of a 'who' to do the experiencing. > Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also thought that in > addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is good and > then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because there was > impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in thinking too much > about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up missing the > opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. All this > thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I do have > faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good Dhamma > friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more direct > will be revealed to the patient mind. Well said. I would add that when the roots are simply understood, the mind naturally inclines to the 'good deeds'. When the mind is clear, there is no confusion or hesitation about taking advantage of the opportunities to "do good" that arise at every moment. Metta, Dan 36146 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Nina] Dear Nina, I have such a difficult time understanding cittas and cetasikas in terms of 'helpers' and 'goals' and 'friends'. For me, this formulation strongly evokes notions of self and soul for little citta- entities. It is true that the thus-invoked citta-self and citta-soul are one step removed from the great "Self" that I am so accustomed to constructing and calling "I", but they are still little selfs that are uncomfortable for me. I don't think 'helpers', 'goals', and 'friends' inherently and necessarily invoke self-images, but they do tend to invoke self-images for me, so I look for different formulations. The talk of 'goal' reminds me very much of the concept of 'directed evolution', viz. that the evolution of species is directed toward its culmination in human form. It's hard for me to accept that evolution of species proceeds toward a goal. In a very similar way, I have trouble understanding how cittas and cetasikas have a 'goal' (unless they are granted selfness and entityness). I'll keep working at it, though. It is a wonderful exercise to work through such language hang-ups and keep directed toward understanding Dhamma. Thanks. Dan 36147 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:01am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 15 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The second jhana arises when the jhana practitioner is able to practice without vitakka. After achieving his second jhana, he has to exercise that second jhana to the extent that he becomes an expert in the matter of the second jhana. The expression here seems to be very easy. But actually is not. After achieving the 1st jhana, the practitioner has to practise to be proficient in his 1st jhana. Then he has to dispassionate jhana- vitakka which is a relative of kama-vitakka. Jhana-vitakka means vitakka cetasika which is a mental facotr that put the mind right on the jhana object. Kama-vitakka is a mental factor and it put the mind directly on kama-arammana or kama objects. Kama objects are sight ( ruparammana ), sound ( saddarammana ), smell ( gandha-arammana ), taste ( rasa-arammana ), touch ( photthabba- arammana ), and mind-object of sensuous things ( dhamma-arammana of kama things ). After arising of dispassion to vitakka, the practitioner again concentrates and attends the jhana object which is patibhaga nimitta of WHITE kasina. When stillness starts to work and there is no more vitakka, the 2nd jhana arises with vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata jhana factors. This second jhana should also be examined by the five vasi or five exercised as described in the previous posts. After an indefinite period, he will be more and more confident in his 2nd jhana. At that time he will start to notice that vicara is not a good thing to have. He will notice that vicara is the weakest link in his 2nd jhana. May you all be able to achieve the second jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36148 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Howard, Nina] Dear Howard and Nina, I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications that aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of understanding: moha -> cringing. Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted rigidity that cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving and cringing and rigidity! Thanks. Dan 36149 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Phil, You ask: > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? While true that there can only be one object of consciousness at a single moment, there are many characteristics of that moment -- the cetasikas. No gaps whatsoever between cittas and cetasikas. Many cetasikas in a single citta. Metta, Dan 36150 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far, we have discussed on 54 kamavacara cittas and 15 rupavacara cittas. It is useful to repeat these cittas so that these become familiar with and they are well understood. 54 kamavacara cittas have 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Sobhana means 'beautiful'. 30 asobhana cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas, and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. It is obvious that akusala cittas are ugly and non-beautiful. They are called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 7 akusala vipaka cittas and 8 kusala vipaka cittas are resultant cittas. They are just results and they are not wicked consciousness. But as they do not have any beautiful cetasika such as alobha, adosa, and amoha they are called non-beautiful consciousness or asobhana cittas. 24 cittas are kamavacara kama sobhana cittas and 15 cittas are rupavacara cittas. All rupavacara cittas, all arupavacara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are beautiful consciousness or sobhana cittas. 24 kamavacara cittas have three classes of cittas. 15 rupavacara cittas also have three classess of citta as do 12 arupavacara cittas. These three classes are kusala, vipaka, and kiriya. Kusala here mean kammogenic or kamma-generating, vipaka means resultant that is the direct result of past kusala when they were done, and kiriya means inoperative or functional and they do not give rise to any kamma and they are also not the result of any kamma. These three classes should be well understood. There are 89 total cittas in terms of characteristics. 81 cittas are lokiya cittas and 8 cittas are lokuttara cittas. 81 lokiya cittas are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas and 12 arupavacara cittas. 54 + 15 + 12 = 81 cittas. Lokuttara cittas do not have any kiriya citta and this will be explained in the coming posts. So far 69 cittas have been discussed. Next discussion will be on arupavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36151 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Howard, Nina] Hi, Dan (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/8/04 10:14:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > > Dear Howard and Nina, > I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the > personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly > crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications that > aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss > something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., > citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of > understanding: moha -> cringing. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that is ignorance on your part, Dan. I agree with you about the personifications - I think they are actually dangerous, playing right into the hands of atta view. This is why, for example, I am uneasy with the language that make cittas seem to be, as I put it, "little, knowing selves," and as "agents of a sort" . ------------------------------------------------ > > Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted rigidity that > cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving and > cringing and rigidity! > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, no! I believe you are thinking quite properly. My point was only that the personifications are avoidable. They should, in fact, be avoided I think, or, if used, they should always be accompanied by disclaimers. ------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks. > > Dan > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36152 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon and Herman, Excuse me for butting in. I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out of what we have available to us. For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I can experience and know or believe to be real or truthful. I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature of the reality that arises and falls away right now and creates this concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. We seek knowledge from concepts so that there can be the understanding that this is the way it is. MattR 36153 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:34am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The reason why I am using Pali words are for you to be familiar with Pali words. This is what it should be. If you use and understand Pali you will be close to The Buddha. Pali words carry more weightage than translated words which may have diverse meanings. There are 5 Buddhist countries. They are Myanmar, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Lao and Cambodia. Theravadan monks maintain The Buddha teachings. There are little difference in The Buddha teachings as recorded in their respective Tipitakas. This is because they use Pali. In Myanmar The Buddha teachings exist in three forms. 1. Pure Pali 2. Pali with translated Myanmar words 3. Pure Myanmar words When I read tipitaka in pure Myanmar language, it was not as good as it should have been, I sensed. The same thing happen when I read pure English version of teachings. If all three forms can well be mastered, you all will feel that you are close to The Buddha and you may feel that you can hear The Buddha's words. This is the explanation why I am using Pali. This is not to show as jargons but to maintain The Buddha's words as he meant. At any stage, any word if not clear or if not remember its meaning, just reply to the post. I will be happy to re-write about it. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36154 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, different translations use different terms. I have also seen the term vivid. As to mind-door: the word clear is used for a process with tadarammana, thus when the mind-door process runs its full course. It is less clear without tadarammana citta. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha Pali uses for the mind-door process: vibhuuta,clear and avibhuuta, obscure. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, What about jhana cittas and cittas in rupa and arupa planes. There is no tadarammana cittas. Which is clearer? Kama cittas or jhana cittas? Just contemplating. Htoo Naing 36155 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon and Herman, Sorry I left out this most important part in my last posting. _____________________________ J> I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and not anyone else H> Now I read you as implying that I have no basis for the statements I am making other than my own intentions. If that is your implication, then you are factually wrong. What was taught by the Buddha, as opposed to what was taught by others, is not a matter of wishful thinking. It is reasonably verifiable. It appears to me that what you lay at my feet is actually true of some others in this group, who promulgate what they insist on as having been taught by the Buddha, despite all indications to the contrary. For them, and not for me, there is no other basis for the perception of what was taugth by the Buddha than the will for it to be so. In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter a hoot. What is real is not affected by what is wanted or what is known. Kind Regards Herman _____________________________ Excuse me for butting in. I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out of what we have available to us. For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I can experience and know or believe to be real. I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature of the reality that arises and falls away right now to create this concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. We seek knowledge from concepts so that there can be the understanding that it is this way. MattR 36156 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:52am Subject: RE: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Robetk and Kenh, _______________________ K> Do any of us know prevailing conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at all; we might have just been thinking about it.) _______________________ R> What an amazingly deep point. We know from studying the Dhamma that there is no self - only namas and rupas arising and ceasing: " 'this is mere mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person'. Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. ________________________ If I choose to go and buy soap rather than not wash, would I be showing a lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them? Confidence in Dhamma is knowing that there is no one there because there is only that which impinges on the eye or some other sense door, nothing more. Is it not? MattR 36158 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/8/04 10:14:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > ======================= Yes! And without a subject of the experience, there is no object of the experience. The experience (or experiencing) is merely the presence or appearance of experiential content. That's how I see it. As soon as we speak of there being "a consciousness", and "an object", and a relation of grasping whereby "that consciousness" grasps "that object", we are introducing an atta view, conceptually creating two *entities*: the agent-subject entity, and the grasped-object entity. In the suttas, 'citta' merely means "mind" or "experience". Using 'citta' to mean "mindstate" is not bad - and much of the Abhidhammic terminology goes in that direction, but the use of 'citta' to denote a subjective, knowing agent is dangerous, IMO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36159 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no. 10. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no. 10. The Commentary relates a Jataka story of a rabbit that became startled on account of a ripe fruit that fell down from a tree. The rabbit was asleep and the fruit fell near its ear so that the noise was very loud. He ran away fast because he thought that the earth was collapsing. Other animals who saw the rabbit running also started to run after it. The Bodhisatta who was at that time the King of the Lions considered that the earth could not collapse since the time for this had not yet arrived. He would find out the reason of the commotion. He asked all the animals, to begin with the elephant and also the rabbit whether they saw the earth collapsing. The rabbit said that he saw this. The Bodhisatta asked him to take him to the place where he saw this. First the rabbit did not want to take him there, but after the Bodhisatta said that he should not fear and he had comforted and pacified him with kind words, the rabbit took him near the tree where he was sleeping. He said that he did not know what kind of sound he had heard. The Bodhisatta explained to the rabbit that he had heard the sound of the fruit that fell and had taken this for an earth quake. he had started to run and caused the other animals to run after him. The Bodhisatta then appeased all the animals and told them not to be afraid. The Co then repeats that when the bhikkhu investigates the cause and the conditions of his unwholesome thoughts, after the Buddha has explained these, he can abandon them. N: The story about the rabbit is an illustration how the investigation of the cause of someone¹s fear can dispel it. We see the compassion and kindness of the Bodhisatta who told the rabbit not to be afraid and consoled him with kind words. Evenso, a person may be afraid of his unwholesome thoughts, but when he understands the cause and conditions for them, he can see them as only naama, as elements devoid of self. He can develop vipassana further so that eventually his defilements will be eradicated. **** Nina. 36160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi Howard, That is why I find it useful and enjoyable to correspond with you, Howard. Nina. op 07-09-2004 21:56 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > This makes me happy. As I mentioned, I believe it was to Herman, that > even when there is disgreement on an issue on DSG, the process of interacting > with each other here causes us to consider deeply and well, and this leads us > to enhance and clarify - and, on rare occasion ;-), to even redirect - our > understanding. 36161 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > > > > > > > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of > > awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. > +++++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > > > As > > > these levels of understanding develop there is more > > > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > > > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > > > that reduces self to one moment only. > > > > Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? > > ++++++++++++++++== > > Dear Andrew, > I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but > according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of > elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is > also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the moment. > ++++++++= Then I'm not sure what 'reducing self to one moment only' means. Can you describe? Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight to begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa here and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. > > > > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful > feeling, no > > I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every > > instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the > > underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would > more > > be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," > > "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to > > identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but > this > > would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet > > incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is > geared to > > from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are > > mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one > rupa > > at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the > > whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say > > that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% > > mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second > > reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe > and a > > neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or > less > > time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. > +++++++++++++++++++ > I appreciate that you see mindfulnes is connected to understanding > of the conditioned (anatta) nature of whatever element is object. > You can check: When we try hard to be 100% mindful is it really > with detachment (the right kind) or is there clinging coming in. If > there is clinging it can be known and then one will be able to > adjust and correct any wrong practice that slips in. > RobertK Robert, when we are applying the principles of vipassana meditation and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be free of craving and clinging, or do we have to root out craving? (I would think craving would already be there waiting to be looked at, whether we are mindful or not) regards, Andrew Levin 36162 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:23pm Subject: The First Council / The Fourth Precept Hi all, Is it a breach of the fourth precept to put forward as fact something which is not known as fact? What is the evidence for the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council? Kind Regards Herman 36163 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi all, =========== Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. ============ So what does that make "everybody"? If ultimate realities are true for everybody, is everybody an ultimate reality too? Kind Regards Herman 36164 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Phil I've snipped and interspersed a bit below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > To tell the truth, in the heat of my babbling I mistook you for a different > Andrew, our friend A.L.... AT: That's ok. I don't mind being mistaken for A.L. - he asks great questions! > Ph: Maybe because I used to (and maybe still do) write children's stories, > or because of the accumulations that make me do that, I see a lot of value > in lovely concepts. AT: I wrote a murder mystery once ... different accumulations! (-: > I used to occasionally get teary-eyed thinking of the suffering of trees and > houses being torn down - but I still think there is value in them as long as > one doesn't mistake them for something deeper and truer. AT: I used to do that too. Every time I saw an animal that had been killed on the road, I would think about its parents and how they had lovingly raised it only to see it slaughtered by a car in a moment of terror. I don't have those thoughts often anymore. I just think "it went the way it had to go" and, for all I know, could now be reborn as a human in good circumstances. If so, what is there to be sad about? And of course, when I'm driving, I take very great care not to hit anything if I can avoid it at all. > I remember reading about the two wings of wisdom and compassion, and after > reading your post I googled it. It seems to be mainly in TIbetan Buddhism > that this is discussed. In DSG we are devoted to developing wisdom (ie > panna). Surely that is our forte, if you will. And we come to see that > compassion arises or fails to arise due to conditions. In other traditions, > compassion is used in a more intentional way. There is probably a lot of > wrong view involved. But now that I'm feeling firmly in/on the wisdom wing I > wonder if I'm ready to flirt with intentional compassion like I used to. AT: I was introduced to Buddhism via the Tibetans and remember the 2 wings of wisdom and compassion. I sort of got the impression that the 2 were meant to be bound up in the sense that, if you give something to a beggar KNOWING that he will use it to harm himself, your act of giving isn't compassion because it lacks the necessary wisdom. In terms of Abhidhamma, as I understand it, for worldlings like us, kusala citta can be with or without compassion (karuna); and with or without wisdom (panna). When kusala citta is without panna, there is still an absence of ignorance. All that being so, it seems, we can have compassion without wisdom without ignorance. As that great proof-reader, KenH, would say - corrections welcome! (-: > Yes, I think some practices that are clearly wrong in terms of wrong view > can still be valuable when used intentionally, with awareness that there's > wrong view, especially by beginners like myself. Playing with akusala? > Maybe. AT: Phil, the question that springs to my mind is: why have a practice that conjures up a "wrong view" kind of compassion when instead we can learn to recognise the real thing. Because the real thing *is* out there. Do you ever get a pleasant feeling (of inspiration?) when you come across a stranger who helps you so spontaneously and willingly, when you help a stranger in the same manner or when someone is acting selflessly? Sure, we don't know precisely the content of the mind moments, a great many of which will be akusala, but there must be moments of karuna present too. Enough of my rambling. Nice chatting with you. Best wishes Andrew T 36165 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Dan, Phil and Howard, I am enjoying this conversation: allow me to put my oar in the water: When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: A, a single reality - an event, B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, D, none of the above? My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three realities.' I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own sabhava (substance). Corrections welcome. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > > 36166 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Hi Dan (and Phil), I'm very happy to be reading your posts again. You have shown over the years that your understanding is deep. With regards to Pali, it is abundantly clear that the meanings of words in the Theravadan tradition have changed considerably over time. Words like citta, nama, rupa, nibbana mean totally different things coming from the mouth of the Buddha to what they do coming from the pen of a scholastic. How different people have communicated experience is certainly an interesting topic of study, and coming to a common understanding of what was said by whom about what may also be very beneficial. What is common to us all today is what was common to people of cultures thousands of years ago, and that commonality is well-captured in the concept of the 5 khandas, often used by the Buddha. The Eskimos have over one hundred different words referring to snow. Snow is not just snow, to them. And so the Buddhist tradition has also differentiated more and more in its concepts over time. With this ongoing differentiation, the language expands, the world of meaning expands. And today, the modern English language is capable of expressing far more nuance than any earlier language, if used precisely. But we should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our constant efforts to do so. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using > Pali...to be pretentious." But you are right: Whenever you study any > new discipline -- whether it be philosophy, biology, psychology, > cooking, etc. -- there is a whole new vocabulary to learn. The Dhamma > is a discipline that Western culture has tasted only slightly, and > the act of learning the new vocabulary greatly facilitates the > learning of the discipline. To take your example of "lobha", English- > speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about > what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and > get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for > me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." > And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really > mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that > doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of > sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And > on and on. Lobha has no English equivalent, and investigating the > specifics about just what this "lobha" is is to open a door into the > Dhamma. If we consider carefully what lobha is, what its > characteristics are, what causes it to arise, then we gradually learn > to recognize its arising and passing away in all its manifestations, > its impermanent nature, its emptiness, and its danger (what's a good > gloss for "dukkha" in its role as one of the three lakkhana?). > > Similarly, for the other Pali terms: a precise consideration of the > meanings can shed great light on the Dhamma. "Cetasikas" is a > wonderful tool for studying these meanings. Kudos to Nina for her > careful work. > > Dan > > > > I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider > using > > Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so > many English > > translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope > more Pali > > terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha > have. 36167 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Vism.XIV,99 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 99. And this eightfold resultant consciousness without root-cause is of two kinds as well because of having an invariable object and a variable object. It is of three kinds as classed according to [bodily] pleasure, [mental] joy, and equanimity. For (34)-(38) the five consciousnesses have each an invariable object since they occur respectively only with respect to visible data, and so on. The others (39)-(41) have a variable object. For here (39) the mind-element occurs with respect to the five beginning with visible data, and (40)-(41) the two mind-consciousness-elements occur with respect to [all] six. Here, however, body-consciousness is associated with [bodily] pleasure. The mind-consciousness-element (40) with two positions is associated with [mental] joy; the other (41) is associated with equanimity. 36168 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi Herman Welcome back. "Everybody" is a conventional term, but in the absolute sense there are no people, only rupa and nama, rising and fallling in a conditioned way. For those who don't recognize that Abhidhamma is part of the triple basket, rupa and nama can be understood through the khandas, the five aggregates taught in the Suttanta. Rupa corresponds to the aggregate of form, nama to the other four. So yes, "everybody" is composed of ultimate realities. Are the khandas called "ultimate realities?" I suppose they aren't, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an easy sounding question! ;) But it seems to me that the Buddha taught towards understanding anatta, in both the Suttanta and Abhidhamma, in different terms (khandas or ultimate realities?) for people with different accumulations and levels of understanding. Since I don't have proper understanding yet, this will sound like parroting to you but I am grateful to be able to repeat what I have learned from good Dhamma friends/teachers. "Everybody" is anatta, of course. We understand that in theory, at least. In my opinion, Abhidhamma is most explicit in getting at what "anatta" is, and understanding Abhidhamma will lead us to a better understanding of suttas. As I said once, it seems to me that studying Abhidhamma is like studying an anatomy text book and the Suttanta is like studying case studies. I would start with the former if I wanted to be a doctor. (I say this despite my recent confession that I don't *really* know what a citta is yet! :) And my failure to remember that while only one citta can rise at a time, it can be accompanied- and is accompanied - by at least seven cetasikas. This bit is irrelevant to your question, I know - just touching ground with the Cetasika study corner on a busy day to thank Dan and Howard for clarification in other posts.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Hofman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) > Hi all, > > =========== > Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the > ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their > own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. > ============ > > So what does that make "everybody"? If ultimate realities are true for > everybody, is everybody an ultimate reality too? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > 36169 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Ken, Dan, Phil, Howard, ================= When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: A, a single reality - an event, B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, D, none of the above? My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three realities.' I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own sabhava (substance). ================ When you say anything, you are using language to communicate. Language has implicit rules and structure. The sentence "Citta experiences an object" is composed of subject - verb - object. The implication of the above sentence is that something is happening to something. It may not be what the speaker wanted to convey, but the hearer should be forgiven for assuming that is what was meant. "I see green", and , "green" with a finger pointing at the grass over there, do not mean the same thing. From the first sentence, the hearer could assume that the speaker has a self-concept, from the second no such conclusion is warranted. The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist representation of an event. Kind Regards Herman Corrections welcome. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > > 36170 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/8/04 7:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Dan, Phil and Howard, > > I am enjoying this conversation: allow me to put my oar in the water: > > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? > > My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three > realities.' > I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that > reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). > > All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is > not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own > sabhava (substance). > > Corrections welcome. > > Ken H > ============================== As you might suspect, I like C the least - I think itis a terrible choice! ;-) What I find the most interesting is your having D as primary choice, and, indeed, I think that choice D is, itself, very interesting. Care to say anything more about D? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 36171 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 5:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi Phil, Thanks for your ongoing kindness. ============== Welcome back. "Everybody" is a conventional term, but in the absolute sense there are no people, only rupa and nama, rising and fallling in a conditioned way. For those who don't recognize that Abhidhamma is part of the triple basket, rupa and nama can be understood through the khandas, the five aggregates taught in the Suttanta. Rupa corresponds to the aggregate of form, nama to the other four. ============== I understand what you are saying in your entire post. I have snipped the remainder for brevity. But surely a discussion of paramattha dhammas as they relate to "everybody" is either a very imprecise use of language, or betrays a misunderstanding of the subject matter. With regards to the status of the Abhidhamma, "recognize" is a very good word to use. I often wonder why, if it is open to question, people assume the Abhidhamma to be the word of the Buddha. The need for external authority in people's lives is the only suggestion I can come up with. There is some evidence to suggest that later commentators have issued their own teachings under the imprimatur of the Buddha in order to enforce acceptance of those teachings. Kind Regards Herman 36172 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Hernan and all - In a message dated 9/8/04 7:52:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? > > My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three > realities.' > I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that > reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). > > All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is > not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own > sabhava (substance). > > ================ > When you say anything, you are using language to communicate. Language > has implicit rules and structure. The sentence "Citta experiences an > object" is composed of subject - verb - object. > ======================= Thank you for this, Herman. In reading it, I realized that I misunderstood Ken's question. He was, I realize, asking what the statement 'Citta experiences an object' means! Actually, I think that is a statement that should not be made!! You are correct: On the basis of our language use, it says there is some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the experienced, and the experiencing the relation, making C the closest to describing the meaning. And that is indeed why this is a bad statement. The trouble with language is that there is virtually no good way to make a proper statement describing the event one intends to describe. You are absolutely correct in your assessment, Herman. This, in fact, is why a Zen master's reaction to any response given to such a query would be to smack the respondent!! ;-)) Ken, please disregard my other reply. I thought you were talking about the event rather than the sentence intending to describe that event. (I was responding to how to best characterize the *event*.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36173 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Phil, Just to add to what Dan said, Even while there are cittas arising at the same time as many cetasikas there are also rupas conditioned by citta. No matter whether we are aware of them or completely oblivious. Robert- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > You ask: > > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or > any other > > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we > hear "accompanying > > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the > rising and > > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an > accompanying > > cetasika? > > While true that there can only be one object of consciousness at a > single moment, there are many characteristics of that moment -- the > cetasikas. No gaps whatsoever between cittas and cetasikas. Many > cetasikas in a single citta. > > Metta, > > Dan 36174 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Matt, >We seek knowledge from concepts so that >there can be the understanding that it is this way. ============= Thanks for your post. I agree with you. Kind Regards Herman 36175 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Hi Htoo, ============= This is the explanation why I am using Pali. This is not to show as jargons but to maintain The Buddha's words as he meant. ============= In the USA, there are some people who maintain that the Bush re-election campaign has God on its side. If such views would ever achieve dominance in that society, life could become much more unpleasant for many people. I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Kind Regards Herman 36176 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 8:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have > access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that > belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Hi Herman Do you accept that the above words apply to you yourself as well as to Htoo? Just wondering ... Andrew T 36177 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, The word clear is just used with reference to a process with tadarammanacitta, and these pertain only to kaamaavacara cittas. It is merely a way of denoting the difference between a process that runs its full course and one that does not. There is not more to it. op 08-09-2004 16:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > What about jhana cittas and cittas in rupa and arupa planes. There is > no tadarammana cittas. Which is clearer? Kama cittas or jhana cittas? > Just contemplating. 36178 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Nina] Dear Dan, thanks. Perhaps this helps: the cittas are so fast, when we think about them they are gone. We can ask ourselves: which one, which one? That is why the Buddha said: what is impermanent is not self. As to helpers, etc. just a simile which may be helpful for some people. The same for goal. Citta has no time to think of any goal, it just arises because of conditions, and falls away. Nina. op 08-09-2004 15:54 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > I have such a difficult time understanding cittas and cetasikas in > terms of 'helpers' and 'goals' and 'friends'. For me, this > formulation strongly evokes notions of self and soul for little citta- > entities. 36179 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object Hi Agrios, op 08-09-2004 14:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: >> N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge >> on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in >> processes. > > So there are objects before they've been experienced? N: Good Q. for thinking over. An object is known, otherwise it would not be an object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time before it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. It disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it can begin. I probably did not answer all you want to know. Nina. 36180 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hello Phil, Dan is right, several or many cetasikas with one citta. Instead of in one citta I prefer with one citta. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas arise at the same time, at the same physical base, experience the same object and fall away together. Phassa and feeling and the other universals arise together. Phassa conditions the conascent feeling. Next moment another phassa, another feeling. The Visuddhimagga carefully explains this under dependent origination. Nina. op 08-09-2004 10:16 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? 36181 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Hi Andrew, Yes, I accept that it would be dangerous for myself to believe that I knew what the Buddha's intentions were. If it appears otherwise, I would consider it an act of kindness for it to be pointed out to me. Thanks and Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Thursday, 9 September 2004 1:19 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have > access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that > belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Hi Herman Do you accept that the above words apply to you yourself as well as to Htoo? Just wondering ... Andrew T 36182 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > > > Dear Andrew, > > I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but > > according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of > > elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is > > also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the > moment. > > ++++++++= > > Then I'm not sure what 'reducing self to one moment only' means. Can > you describe? > +++++++++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, It is something Nina wrote to me a few times. Usually we are caught up in the idea of me being this or that, doing this or that. But actually there six worlds: that of seeing/visble object; hearing/sound; tasting/tasted; and the other doors. All these worlds have different causes and are distinct from each other, it is by separating the worlds into one moment that self is reduced from the whole of 'me' into oen moment only. When my uncle was in hospital I said to him that we might take the whole of the situation and think 'How bad'. But all the time there are different moments. Moments with painful feeling, yes. But then moments when the doctor says something nice. Or when he looks at the pleasant(mildly) wallpaper. All the time in life desirable vipaka and undesirable vipaka is alternating, and then there are always different reactions after the vipaka. But no self- only these different moments. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight to > begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa here > and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and > sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in > their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three > dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. +++++++++ The essential causes for insight are hearing true Dhamma, considering it wisely and also pubbekata punnata (wholesome accumulations from past lives). Some people hear the Dhamma but it means nothing and they turn away. Some hear it, get interested, but consider unwisely and go wrong in various ways. Andrew you have the ability to consider in a very wise way (and yet you are young and currently having some problems); it shows good accumulations. I don't like the idea of rules about developing insight, most importantly we have to learn what is sati and what only looks like sati. Then different factors assist sati to arise. ++++++++ > > Robert, when we are applying the principles of vipassana meditation > and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be free of > craving and clinging, or do we have to root out craving? (I would > think craving would already be there waiting to be looked at, whether > we are mindful or not) > > ++++++++++++ The main point with vipassana is to see how anatta every moment is, that every moment arises by complex conditions. If craving arises it is because it is conditioned to arise. It has to accepted and studied so that the causes for craving can be seen. There are four types of clinging(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha- ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I want to emphasize this because one of the big mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got so bad I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. This all comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And it is not the way to understand. First there must be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. RobertK. 36183 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Herman and Howard, Thanks for your analysis of "citta experiences an object." Herman concluded: ------------------ > The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist representation of an event. > ----------------- Yes, I'm happy with that. I think it is consistent with the Abhidhamma. Citta, having mental substance, performs the function of experiencing an object. That object, if it is rupa, will have material substance; if it is a nama, will have mental substance; and, if it is a concept, will have no substance at all. Howard, I think you agree with Herman too: ------------------------ Howard: > On the basis of our language use, it says there is some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the experienced, and the experiencing the relation, ---------------------- That was my interpretation also, although, I called the 'experiencing' the `function of citta.' Now, where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, both, are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial – which they are not, of course. Nama is mentality - it has mental substance - and rupa is materiality - it has material substance. The material substance of rupa is not the materiality known to conventional science. Conventional science hasn't come up with a definition of mentality yet, so there's no clash there. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36184 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Ken and all > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? Thanks for putting the question so clearly. It helps me a lot. My first impulse is to say C. I think of this passage from p.158 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life: "The 'Discourse on the Six Senses' (Middle Length Sayings IIIm No.148) is very helpful for the understanding of realities which present themselves through the six doors. When the Buddha was staying in the Jeta grove in Anathapinkika's monastery, he explained to the monks about the six 'internal sense-fields' and the six 'external sense-fields' (in Pali: ayatana) The six 'internal sense-fields' are the six doors through which objects are experienced. The six 'external sense-fields' are the objects, experienced through the six doors. The Buddha then explained about the six classes of consciousness which arise in dependence on the six doors and about the objects experiences through the six doors." I know I am oversimplifying, but from the above it sounds like C, though the suffix "-er" suggests self/actor a bit too much, which brings us to either B or D. Yes, B looks good. The" internal sense-fields" and the "classes of consciousness" would be nama. The "external sense field" (object) would be rupa. Nama (ie citta) is that which experiences, rupa (object) is that which is experienced. For what it's worth, I go with B. Thanks Robert and Nina for your elaboration on Dan's post, and hello to Herman as well. Metta, Phil 36185 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Dear Nina, Larry & All, You wrote to Larry (and me), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I start to get worried since you want to go through the Vis. three times > during your life! How can we do this then? > I shall think things over more and maybe Sarah also has ideas. .... S: I think it’s going very well now. I think Larry has a lot of experience in running ‘study corners’ and I’d be inclined to leave the pace to him. He knows when and how to check with you as need be. Don’t worry (or if you do, it’s just another dhamma to be known;-). .... >While reading the tiika I will think more. But does anyone wants to have the Pali Vis.? I need it all for my reading and it is no trouble for me. Should I post the Vis. Pali for each para? Let us say, when nobody says anything it is no. .... S: Like you said about a Middle Way in another note, why not just add key terms and phrases when you summarise or add any details in your introcuctions to keep it simple and less work for yourself? As Lodewijk always says, there’s no limit to one’s metta or other wholesome states to be developed. However, there is a limit to one’s ability and strength!! It’s a question of what one finds most useful for others at anytime as well as what is of most value for one’s own reflection and study and interest too. What you have done to date has been very helpful, but that doesn’t mean it should be continued in the same format. Again, I think K.Sujin would stress that there’s no rule but we can know the thinking, the worry, the wondering at these times of indecision and that’s the real study. Again we tend to think conventionally that we have to make a choice or decision, but such thinking is once more conditioned and merely more passing dhammas. You suggested I say more about the goal of the study of the Visuddhimagga. The goal as I see it is to appreciate more and more about how the various dhammas described in detail are rising and passing away at this very moment and that’s it. There is no one behind them, no one pulling any strings, no one guiding them and no one who can alter them in anyway. Because the idea of self is so very deep-rooted and because there isn’t any understanding of namas and rupas at all most the time, we need to hear and consider more details from more angles before understanding and confidence in the Truths can really grow. As Azita suggested, it’s not enough just to hear the basics and to get some kind of intellectual or direct appreciation of namas and rupas as this may well be forgotten for long periods when we’re distracted by other less noble inclinations . We need to go on hearing and considering and developing understanding. It’s never enough. Even the arahants continued listening to the Buddha, so who are we to think we’ve heard enough for now? At the moment we’re reading in the Visuddhimagga about all kinds of cittas from the birth citta (patisandhi citta) to the death citta (cuti citta). It may seem that sometimes the mind is racing and other times it’s silent or without any thinking, for example. Or it may even appear to have stopped, as in deep sleep. All the time there is a deep-rooted idea of ‘my’ mind. However, from our studies we learn a little more about how illusory such ideas are and how cittas always follow each other in the same rapid succession regardless of time and place. The mind (or present citta) can’t be slowed down or speeded up or stopped or changed at all. It’s conditioned to be just the way it is. Similarly, the cetasikas (the mental factors) which accompany these cittas, arise, perform their functions or ‘duties’ (‘roles?’) and fall away instantly too. No lasting anguish, no lasting concentration, no lasting wisdom, metta, generosity or any other state. As Phil said, there are always a group of cetasikas arising with any citta, but one citta with accompanying cetasikas can only ever have one object. Seeing consciousness and cetasikas can only experience visible object for example. Similarly, a citta in the javana process accompanied by sati (in satipatthana) can only have one paramattha dhamma as object -- any nama or rupa which has been ‘conditioned’ to appear as object at that very moment. This is how understanding can develop -- the object appearing can be known---, but not by any attempt at any selection of object. Nina, as you heard on the tape ‘it is not enough to learn only the terms, then we go through our whole life only knowing the names of realities’. It’s a good reminder. This is why it doesn’t matter what language we use or which terms. The goal is simply to understand what is appearing now as the object of the present citta. I’m really appreciating all the discussions about terms and words in the Cetasikas corner....reflecting and considering the meaning of just one word like ‘citta’, ‘cetasika’ or ‘function’ may be more precious or valuable than reading a dozen texts. Again it just depends on the understanding, on the present pariyatti or even patipatti at the time. You also mentioned that ‘we have to try to find different ways of expressing the Truth’ and I greatly appreciate that you and others here do this all the time. Your patience and willingness to help in this regard is really commendable and a great model for some of us. Of course, it’s always just according to our limited understanding and skill in expression and variable accumulations and wholesome inclinations for writing/speaking on dhamma too! I hope this helps a little. Metta, Sarah p.s I was going to add something ,more on the qu of hardness you were discussing with Howard. I’ll put it in another post. ====== 36186 From: Andrew Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Yes, I accept that it would be dangerous for myself to believe that I > knew what the Buddha's intentions were. > > If it appears otherwise, I would consider it an act of kindness for it > to be pointed out to me. > > Thanks and Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman I couldn't possibly be so pretentious as to lecture you in absolute terms about misinterpretations of "the Buddha's intentions" because, like you and Htoo, I also can't claim to be an infallible authority. I read and listen and reflect upon what I see and hear - and I form views about that. I can attempt to describe those views to others but must label them as "my understanding of" the Buddha's teaching - they remain merely my views and I can't put them any higher than that. They have a habit of changing, too. On a list like this, of course, it can become tiresome and cluttered to be constantly reminding others that "this is just my view" and so many of us take it for granted that the other is not claiming absolute knowledge of the matters being discussed. Of course, someone occasionally pops up who reads something and thinks it is being offered as a "hotline to the Tathagata", but that's usually not the case. We get to know where we are all coming from. For example, I have read enough of your posts to know that you consider the Abhidhamma a later corruption. For myself, I am interested in exploring the Abhidhamma so that I can make that assessment on my own from an informed perspective. I guess that means we don't have alot to discuss at the moment but that's okay ... always gotta leave something good for later! (-: Thanks and farewell Andrew T 36187 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:53am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, I have little time again, so I will respond to just one or two points. > S> I am not sure why you admire all those other people and > philosophies; I do like what some of them have said too. However > when it comes to judging whether they have Right View, I don't think > any of them do. This means that none of them are enlightened and > therefore them "finding meaning in their lives", really means > nothing as far as I am concerned. > > Eric: As you see fit. But if you had the chance to listen > to a stream enterer, would you hesitate? Sukin: If for example Nina were to approach me and say that such and such a person was enlightened, I would definitely be very excited and would wish to meet and talk with that person. There have been claims that certain monks are/was enlightened, even to the point of being arahats. However now when I read what they have said, I have no reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them quite misguided even. So yes, in those cases where the claim comes from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. It would be impossible for me to determine who is in fact enlightened. On the other hand however, even if someone wasn't, but like Nina, taught Dhamma in such a way that one is constantly reminded about the reality of the present moment, then I would consider at least that that person is a "good" dhamma teacher. People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much importance he gives to presently arising realities. It is after all I believe, often the case that one does *not know* present conditions, that one ends up speculating about it. And what others may think to be impressive explanations, to me is more a product of mental proliferation rooted in one wrong view or the other. The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be enlightened. It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all t?ey can talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they claim to practice in order to "know". You often point to the Kalama Sutta. What I have written above will give you an idea as to how according to me, the Buddha's teachings can be verified. It is true that the level of understanding is only `intellectual' and doubt is still far from being eradicated. But is there a better way than to study the Teachings in order to get an increasingly better idea of what the Buddha meant? I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in order to condition Saddha. A moment of satipatthana itself conditions all the necessary factors as sankhara. And one result I believe is not any *less* confidence in the pariyatti, but in fact *more*. Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular conventional activity!? You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly hard to get on the right track. Sorry for the abrupt ending, but have to rush out now. Metta, Sukin. 36188 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Dear Nina & Howard, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > It> > >> is really difficult to know hardness as rupa, we are so used to take > it for > >> my hand, for mine, for a thing belonging to me. ..... > > -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't think of hardness as something belonging to me, not even > > conventionally speaking. ..... > N: I good point for considering, I suggested Sarah brings it up in Bgk. > Theoretically we know and understand that there is no self, but the > practice? > There is an underlying idea of self, the latent tendency of wrong view > that > is only eradicated by the sotapanna. ..... S: You added a lot more helpful detail and I also added a few comments, followed by Howard’s helpful reflections: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35126 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35448 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35453 Anyway, I raised it (as a brief qu) as you suggested with K.Sujin and I’ll add her further comments. ..... Sujin: >Even for one who studies [the Dhamma], does one have to think at the moment of touching whether or not there is a self? The Dhamma is not for telling the others what is happening, but whenever cetasikas arise, many of them at a moment, can we tell how many are there or what is there or what is the characteristic of each? Or, [can we only tell when] one appears so there can be the understanding or misunderstanding of that reality? So if wrong view does not arise, can we say ‘Oh, it’s wrong view?’. We can never say like that. >Even children who don’t have any idea about self and non-self can tell what is experienced -- whether it’s hard or soft. So it depends at that moment what cetasikas arise, whether there is no wrong view or there is wrong view. [S:and this can only be known if the characteristic of wrong view appears and awareness is aware of it]. >There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when there is atta-sa~n~naa, there is not necessarily any wrong view of self. It is a vipallasa (perversion) of sa~n~naa, but not necessaily ditthi vipallasa (perversion of view).< ***** S: In other words, there may be a distortion of perception in some regard as there is with every unwholesome citta arising, but not necessarily wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, from Dispeller (transl of Sammohavinodani, PTS), Classification of the Truths, 432: “...And the Truth of Suffering is like a disease, the Truth of Origin is like the cause of the disease, the Tuth of Cessation is like the cure of the disease and the Truth of the path is like the medicine.” Thank your for your further comments and reflections on namas and rupas in our thread with Agrios. Others are discussing this further with you, so I’ll take a back-seat this time;-). Nina, looking forward to the rest of your other series and especially the teeth! Apologies for jumping in a little soon. ======= 36189 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 1:25am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** The reader may wonder what the use is of knowing the detaiIs about citta and cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas are not abstract categories, they are active at this very moment. We could not see, hear, think, act, be angry or have attachment without cetasikas. Seeing, for example, is a citta. It is the citta which cognizes colour or visible object. In order to perform its function it needs the assistance of cetasikas, such as contact, which contacts visible object, or one-pointedness, which focuses on the object. It is important to have more understanding of cetasikas. We should know that defilements are cetasikas and that good qualities are cetasikas. They arise in daily life and when they appear we should investigate their characteristics. Otherwise we would not know what is right and what is wrong. We would not know when defilements arise and how deeply rooted they are. If the Buddha had not taught in detail about defilements we would only have a vague idea about them. How could we see the danger of defilements when they are unknown to us? How could we develop what is wholesome if we would not know the characteristics of wholesome cetasikas and the different ways of good deeds? There is a great variety of cetasikas accompanying the different cittas. Akusala cittas are accompanied by cetasikas which are defilements, whereas kusala cittas are accompanied by cetasikas which are good qualities. Apart from defilements and good qualities there are also cetasikas which accompany cittas which are unwholesome, cittas which are wholesome and cittas which are neither wholesome nor unwholesome. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36190 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 9/9/04 2:18:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Herman and Howard, > > Thanks for your analysis of "citta experiences an object." Herman > concluded: > ------------------ > > >The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of > language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist > representation of an event. > > > ----------------- > > Yes, I'm happy with that. I think it is consistent with the > Abhidhamma. Citta, having mental substance, performs the function of > experiencing an object. That object, if it is rupa, will have > material substance; if it is a nama, will have mental substance; > and, if it is a concept, will have no substance at all. > > Howard, I think you agree with Herman too: > ------------------------ > Howard: > On the basis of our language use, it says there is > some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding > between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the > experienced, and the experiencing the relation, > ---------------------- > > That was my interpretation also, although, I called > the 'experiencing' the `function of citta.' > > Now, where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, both, > are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with > substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial – which > they are not, of course. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is not only concepts the Buddha states are insubstantial. All dhammas are said to hollow and void. There are the following two paragraphs from The Snake, in the Sutta Nipata: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > He who does not find core or substance > in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought > in fig trees that bear none, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > > > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind > and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Finally, also addressing paramattha dhammas, there are the following magnificent verses from the Phena Sutta (The Foam Sutta): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; > consciousness, a magic trick -- >    this has been taught >    by the Kinsman of the Sun. > However you observe them, > appropriately examine them, > they're empty, void >    to whoever sees them >    appropriately. Beginning with the body > as taught by the One > with profound discernment: > when abandoned by three things >    -- life, warmth, & consciousness -- > form is rejected, cast aside. > When bereft of these > it lies thrown away, >    senseless, >    a meal for others. > That's the way it goes: > it's a magic trick, > an idiot's babbling. > It's said to be >    a murderer. > No substance here > is found. Thus a monk, persistence aroused, > should view the aggregates > by day & by night, >    mindful, >    alert; > should discard all fetters; > should make himself >    his own refuge; > should live as if > his head were on fire -- >    in hopes of the state >    with no falling away. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nama is mentality - it has mental substance - and rupa is > materiality - it has material substance. The material substance of > rupa is not the materiality known to conventional science. > > Conventional science hasn't come up with a definition of mentality > yet, so there's no clash there. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ================================= With heartfelt (but quite insubstantial ;-) metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36191 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/9/04 4:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > p.s Howard, from Dispeller (transl of Sammohavinodani, PTS), > Classification of the Truths, 432: > > “...And the Truth of Suffering is like a disease, the Truth of Origin is > like the cause of the disease, the Tuth of Cessation is like the cure of > the disease and the Truth of the path is like the medicine.â€? > ========================== Ahh! Thank you!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36192 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana-meditation, jhana's and the not-sensual citta's Dear Joop, I meant to add a note or two to your post on this topic before: --- jwromeijn wrote: > A question that will not be new in this DSG, but I have not found it > in the "useful posts from the archives" <...> > As far as I have understood, it's not necessary to reach a jhana for > getting liberated, getting the 16 nana's, step by step, is even > better. > Because in the sutta's the jhana's are mentioned so many times, I > have tried to read more about the relation vipassana- samatha's. ..... S: Try for a start: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Scroll down to: -Jhana & Nibbana -Jhana -Two Meanings -Samatha -Samatha & vipassana bhavana -Susima Sutta -Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN 1V.170 Then let me know if you’d like more;-) ***** J: > There are two groups of scolars writing on the two main types of > Buddhist meditation: one group that considers insight (vipassana) to > be essential and tranquility to be inessential in the pursuit of > nibbana; and a second group that views both samatha and vipassana to > be essential. In the second group there are some who say: after > having reached first jhana you can decide how to continue: with > second jhana or with vipassana. ... S: tranquillity accompanies all wholesome states. Regardless of whether or not samatha development or the attainment of jhanas are a pre-requisite of not for the development of vipassana, there is no you or me or anyone else who can ‘decide how to continue’ at any stage. Just like now, it depends on whether there is any understanding and what kind of understanding that is which arises, accompanied by what other factors and what kind of object is understood and in what way. It’s helpful to reflect on all kinds of wholesome states and to clearly understand unwholesome states for what they are. Trying to set an order for what arises or trying to direct the show at anytime is unhelpful imho. (I may have misunderstood the point;-)). .... J: > In his essay "VIPASSANA & JHANA: What The Masters Say" Ven. > Visuddhacara writes: "<.....>Yogis can switch to Vipassana after attaining a moderate > level of concentration which is sufficient to overcome The Five > Hindrances. ......” ..... S: I find this kind of statement to be particularly misleading. If there is no beginning of vipassana now, how will the conditions be laid for any vipassana later? Who can switch? .... J:> Even if I was convinced (first) jhana is necessary, I don't know a > teacher because I don't want to do it on my own and I don't want to > go to a course of Tibetan meditation because I don't want anything > tantric. So I don't do it. Good to mention that we also do metta- and > karuna-meditation, as I understand that are a kind of samatha, but > not for reaching absorption. .... S: Yes, metta and karuna can be developed naturally in daily life when we have so many opportunities. If there isn’t any development of metta now, it can never be an object of samatha development. The same applies to wise reflection on the Buddha’s qualities, the Dhamma, generosity, death or other ‘suitable’ daily life objects. As soon as there is a’ trying’ to follow a jhana practice or effort to reach absorption, it is bound to be out of attachment, not the development of tranquillity with detachment as I see it. .... J: > My questions in fact are: > Because (higher) jhana's are not relevant to me to practice, is it > correct that they are also not relevant in a intellectual way? > Questioned in another way: why should the non-sensual citta's > (rupavacara, arupavacara, lokuttara) in the Abhidhamma interest me? .... S: Quite frankly, they don’t interest me very much at all, unless I read something which seems erroneous and likely to lead to a misperception and I think further discussion might be helpful. .... J: > And is it correct that the "Planes of Existence" that correspond to > that non-sensual citta's are also not relevant to me? I even don't > have the wish to be reborn in that "higher" planes (numbers 12 and > higher to say it quasi-exact). .... S: Academic interest only as far as I’m concerned or just to have less doubt when we read about them in the texts. ..... J: > Sometimes I think I don't have the fetters (samyojana's) nr 6 and 7: > rupa-raga and arupa-raga, but I think I still have nrs 2-5 and are > working to release the first one; is that possible? .... S: We have no idea what subtle latent tendencies may be accumulated I think.... If such fetters haven’t arisen (for obvious reasons) in this life, it doesn’t mean they’ve been eradicated. No 1 is sakkaya-ditthi I believe. Of course it will only be the very highly developed panna which will eradicate it at stage of sotapanna. Again not a self that can work on it;-). .... J: > I realize I don't put my questions in a very careful (Asian) way but > they are sincere and come from a great respect of the Dhamma .... S: I like your Qus very much indeed and they come across as very sincere. You obviously have a lot of respect and confidence in the Dhamma and I enjoy all your contributions a lot. I liked your discussion with Christine and others too. I don’t think there is any difference between Asian and non-Asian right and wrong view or doubt or questions arising. The Dhamma is for all;-). Metta, Sarah p.s We had some long discussions on Karunadasa’s articles before. I think we mostly agreed his article on ‘Time’ was good, but reservations on ‘Space’. Yes, just ‘now’ as you say. (See ‘Time’, ‘Momentariness’, ‘Space’ in U.P.) Looking f/w to the pic! ====================================================== 36193 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Hello all >We could not see, hear, think, act, be >angry or have attachment without cetasikas 1 -What if we *were* without cetasikas - just what would be going on? Bhavangas endlessly? Could the mind operate? Would it advert to an impinging rupa, reach sense-consciousness, and then proceed no further without cetasikas to assist it and therefore fall back into bhavangas? Maybe knowing to what extent the mind could operate without cetasikas can help us understand them better. Metta, Phil 36194 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > So far, we have discussed on 54 kamavacara cittas and 15 rupavacara > cittas. It is useful to repeat these cittas so that these become > familiar with and they are well understood. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear All, From this Dhamma Thread, what I have noticed is that only the moderator and owner Sarah takes an interest and does replies. Other who did not reply may also have a good mind. But in this message, I just replied my own message. And there followed 4 reply messages. All of which do not contain any dhamma content. Instead, what I found is full of doubt, full of aversion, full of restlessness, and full of ignorance. Whether we are discussing or not, whether you read them or not, whether you learn at your own speed in other literature or not, dhamma is dhamma. No one can overcome five niyamas. Whether you believe that there is no life after death or there are still many lives after death, dhamma will be going on its own speed. no one can influence. Even The Buddha could not. If you die soon and without achieving anything in this life, that is your choice. Today everywhere most that are encountered are not good ones. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36195 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > The word clear is just used with reference to a process with > tadarammanacitta, and these pertain only to kaamaavacara cittas. It is > merely a way of denoting the difference between a process that runs its full > course and one that does not. There is not more to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. It makes sense. Htoo Naing 36196 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" (was: Profit of) Hi Herman, Glad your ski trip was goooooooooood and glad you’re still around. Now I look at this thread again, I think Phil kindly responded on most the points. I’ll just add a little more. --- Egbert wrote: > H: I'm sorry, Sarah, I wasn't very explicit or clear. By a frail ego > I mean a person who feels they have no control in their day to day > life. > > Perhaps the above clarification would suffice, but while I'm at it, > I might explain a bit more. A person who feels a lack of control in > their life will inevitably feel they are acting against their will. > Such a person ends up seriously depressed, possibly suicidal, > possibly prematurely dead. ..... S: We can of course help someone who is close to us and who is depressed to take steps to get their life in better order on a conventional level if we’re able. This might be by helping them to see a doctor, change a job, a relationship or whatever we feel is useful at the time. If that person is a very rare individual who can also appreciate that in truth the feelings and thoughts and depression and other experiences are conditioned dhammas, unsatisfactory, impermanent and anatta, then encouraging any glimmers of right understanding can never hurt. Of course, if the snake is handled the wrong way it will be dangerous -- it is for us all. I do agree that we need to therefore be careful what we say and how we help. It can be particularly difficult just in print, but in some ways, I think there are some advantages too in this medium, fo me at least. Anyway, we just do our best in sharing the Dhamma. That’s all. I appreciate your reminders and concern. ..... > H : I may be quite mistaken, but I do not think that the truth of > anatta was ever taught to lay folk intent on remaining lay folk. > With very good reason. ... S: No closed fist -- it was taught for the benefit of anyone who could appreciate it, including lay folk without any idea of ordaining. ... > H : The suttas may well be likened to a doctor's notes, each sutta > being specific to a situation. But due to such black arts as > writing, commentaries and education for the masses :-) worldlings > have access to more material than is suitable for them to hear. And > so the contemporary worldling gets to choose which diagnosis and > remedy they will apply to themself. This has extremely detrimental > consequences for the self-diagnosing patient. Especially so for the > one who applies the doctor's statements, on anatta, to fully > renouncing monks, to themself and ends up with a neurotic > resignation citing conditionality. .... S: ‘The detrimental consequences’ follow the wrong views, not the teaching of anatta as I see it. We’re here to help each other recognise such wrong views and hopefully to see them gradually eliminated as a result of wise reflection and direct understanding. An idea that one should live in physical seclusion or would have better support for one’s practice of the Dhamma automatically if one were ordained would be examples of such views as I see it. One forgets about the results of kamma and other conditions all the time, thinking one’s life really can be arranged by changing the ‘trappings’ of the Dhamma rather than understanding the dhammas arising at the present moment. Herman, I do appreciate your well-considered reflections on this sensitive subject matter. I’m not an expert at all. Quite the contrary. I’m glad to reflect more on it. Metta, Sarah p.s. Abhidhamma at the First Council. In U.P. many posts on this under ‘Abhid - history’. If one had no intention to deceive, there is no lie. For example, I might say in good faith to Jon, ‘It’s stopped raining’. We go down in the lift, step outside and find we have to go back for umbrellas. No lie. Lots in the commentaries re Abh Pitaka at First Council, eg comy to the Vinaya, to the Dhammasangani and I believe to the DN, though I’ve not read the latter as it’s not in English. Also in Mahavamsa. Naturally anything about the Councils can only be found in the commentaries based on those brought to Sri Lanka by the great arahant Mahinda originally. Are these all lies?;-) When I look at modern writings which don’t accept the Abhidhamma, usually they seem to accept and quote as ‘fact’ those parts of the commentaries which accord with their views, but not otherwise. That’s OK too. Anyone can believe anything -- I don’t mind at all! (Well, hardly at all;-)) ====================================== 36197 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:05am Subject: Fabric softener Phil, just a quick note - I have several of your super letters in front of me to add points on, but am out of time.....(also on Htoo's and one or two others). Anway, greatly appreciate the obvious fabric softener effects in the rough and tumble wash cycles which come out in all your kind posts. Like AndrewT, I'm not so sure about some of the methodology, but I certainly appreciate the results here;-) More later I hope.... Metta, Sarah ====== 36198 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:45am Subject: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Sukin: If such and such a person was enlightened, I would definitely be very excited and would wish to meet and talk with that person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I heard that a monk had jhana power. He went alm round in the rainy season while raining without ever being wet. It was said that many people saw the monk flying in the sky. Even some people saw quite close and they were all amazed that when they remember to make a record like photography, the monk had been too far away. When I appraoched that monk, I found nothing unusual. But he was well calm and I did not find any smile or any mental disturbance. And there had been a lot of miracles regarding this monk. As usual, people started to flock and tried to go there with a view to achieve any wealth-increasing power from that monk. This is just a matter of jhana. The monk was any way being proved to be a non-arahat. I met a monk who was strongly believed to be an arahat. He was also extremely calm. Whenever he had a chance to talk, what he would preach was 'to stay in the present'. That is when we move, we must know that we move. When hear, just hear, when see just see, when look just note want to look and then look at, and note all the present. I also met several monks claimed to be arahats. But instead of reeping method to transcend, people approached in different intensions like to be wealthy, to be healthy and to be associated with loved ones and so on. Even though I did not know whether they were ariyas or arahats, they were well calm and free of anything that you would accuse them of. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: There have been claims that certain monks are/was enlightened, even to the point of being arahats. However now when I read what they have said, I have no reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them quite misguided even. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know other monks but what I talked above were in Myanmar and some passed away long time ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So yes, in those cases where the claim comes from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. It would be impossible for me to determine who is in fact enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, it is not confine to anyone who are not arahats. Only arahats will know arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: On the other hand however, even if someone wasn't, but like Nina, taught Dhamma in such a way that one is constantly reminded about the reality of the present moment, then I would consider at least that that person is a "good" dhamma teacher. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: One monk that I mentioned above taught 'constant mindfulness on realities'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much importance he gives to presently arising realities. It is after all I believe, often the case that one does *not know* present conditions, that one ends up speculating about it. And what others may think to be impressive explanations, to me is more a product of mental proliferation rooted in one wrong view or the other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. It is brilliant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Other beings who are not Buddhas and followers of The Buddhas and become enlightened are paccekabuddhas. Otherwise, no one can be enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin:It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Partly agree. But there are some who really urge to practise mahasatipatthana of attending realities. But as you said there are some who constantly encouraging to do meditation because it makes calm, happiness, and peace. That is in the very formal way like going to a quiet place and sit in cross-legged. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The right view starts with understanding of avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the site where there is obstruction and deters the progress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they claim to practice in order to "know". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How do you suggest here, Sukin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You often point to the Kalama Sutta. What I have written above will give you an idea as to how according to me, the Buddha's teachings can be verified. It is true that the level of understanding is only `intellectual' and doubt is still far from being eradicated. But is there a better way than to study the Teachings in order to get an increasingly better idea of what the Buddha meant? I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in order to condition Saddha. A moment of satipatthana itself conditions all the necessary factors as sankhara. And one result I believe is not any *less* confidence in the pariyatti, but in fact *more*. Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular conventional activity!? You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly hard to get on the right track. Sorry for the abrupt ending, but have to rush out now. Metta, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This post was originally from Sukin to Eric. But as I have not long communicated with Sukin, and as this message is very interesting and valuable I just butt in. If there is any inconvenience, please forgive me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36199 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Phil: Hello all 1 -What if we *were* without cetasikas - just what would be going on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no citta that is not accompanied by cetasikas. And there is no cetasika that exists without a citta. Cetasika are mental factors that always arise with a citta, that always take the same object that is taken by the citta, and that always base the same base as the citta does, and that always perish with disappearance of the citta. Cittas are learnt as they have different characters. These differences in characters are due to the accompanying cetasikas. As cetasikas have their own characteristics, they are studied as realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Bhavangas endlessly? Could the mind operate? Would it advert to an impinging rupa, reach sense-consciousness, and then proceed no further without cetasikas to assist it and therefore fall back into bhavangas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not at all. Have explained above. There is no citta that does not have any cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Maybe knowing to what extent the mind could operate without cetasikas can help us understand them better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think so. Study cittas first, as I am doing in the current Dhamma Thread. Then move again to cetasikas so that we can study what cittas have what cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing