37800 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:55pm Subject: Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 Dear Dhamma Friends, 28.10.04 is full moon day. The Buddha Gotama preached Abhidhamma at Tavatimsa started from full moon day of the 4th month of solar calendar of 12 signs starts with Aries. The start of Abhidhamma preaching is called Dhammacakkappavattana Day. From the 4th month till the 7th month, The Buddha preached Abhidhamma for 3 successive months without any interruption. Tomorrow (28.10.04) is the full moon day when The Buddha finished preaching Abhidhamma at Deva realm and came down to manussa bhumi or human realm. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37801 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Friend Howard, Howard: The matter of continuity is something else, I believe. There are no gaps between mindstates, at least that is the claim that Theravadin Abhidhamma makes. So there, already, is a *sort* of continuity. (That, however, is not the experienced continuity we are speaking of.) James: I am not sure if we discussed this before or not but how could there possibly be no gaps between mindstates? The Buddha taught that dhammas arise, persist, and fall away. If there were no gaps there would never be the point when a mind state had fallen away, it would just keep persisting forever. Right? Metta, James 37802 From: plnao Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandas as disease or dissolution? Hi Robert, Connie and all Phil > > I wondered why we would attend to khandas as a disease, or > alien (if they > > are alien, alien to what?) when it seems that by going straight to > an > > understanding of khandas as dissolution, or emptiness, or anatta, > we can get > > to a kind of liberation more directly, even if our understanding > is basic. > > Why play around with concepts such as disease or alien when we can > get > > straight to dissolution? > ================ > Dear Phil, > Any words used to decribe paramattha dhammas (the five aggregates) > must be a concept. Even anatta and anicca are purely conceptual as > terms . Ph: Yes, thanks for reminding me of this. > Howeever these concepts are also so accurate as to what the > really khandhas are. And surely they are a disease- that is what the > whole paticasamupaadda shows. Ph: What is paticasamupaadda. The survey of paramattha dhammas? >An ugly, chronic illness I would say. > Alien is my favourite, I used to write posts about it in the early > days of dsg. Ph: I look forward to reading them. I assume that they are included in the posts that Connie kindly provided #s for. Unfortunately, I'm not able to access Yahoo because of internet problems and am only reading e-mail. If you wouldn't mind, could you send along (either on-list or off) one or several of these posts? The reason I have trouble relating to "alien" is that it seems that "alien" must be alien to something - and if there is dissolution of the khandas, as there is in every moment, what are they alien to? There is no self to be alient to, it seems to me. Yes, an ugly chronic illness. I can see that. And it's confirmed in Dhammapada: "There's no ill like the aggregates of existence." (Dh. 15-202) And yet, when we talk of illness, we are assuming a contrast to healthiness. That duality is implied. What is healthiness in Dhamma terms? Right understanding of realities. Panna at work, I guess. And when panna is being culitvated, the aggregates are seen for what they are. I still tend to think that if it arises, understanding of aggregates as a dissolution seems best. But that's a big "if" because it implies direct understanding that very few of us are capable of, and very rarely at that. Rob>I forget the pali term now, but the English translation > cpatures it well. There is nothing about any of the five khandhas > (paramattha dhammas) that is me or mine, they are dangerous, vile > and alien . It shows how deluded we are that we can think of them as > being good at times! Ph: Yes. Deluded. With every akusala citta there is moha, blindness to paramattha dhammas. > It is true that direct insight doesn't need to use any words but > then when you consider the khandhas how else can you think about > them except in words and these are the best terms to use. Ph Yes, I do agree, of course. I think I was sensing a movement towards a purer, directer understanding, but that is for lifetimes to come. SN XXII 79 talks about the instructed disciple who "tears down and does not build up" the khandas It would seem to me that this "tearing down" means getting at something more direct. I remember when we met for a talk, Rob, we agreed that Zen has a certain affinity with Abhihdhamma. I think we said that. Certainly, Abhidhamma has increased my appreciation for Zen. This would surprise people who misunderstand Abhidhamma and think it to be all theory, all Pali terminology. In fact, all the terminology just points towards direct understanding of the realities, free of names, free of concepts. And I guess (only guess) that the way the descriptions of khandas in the sutta I referred to progress from disease to dissolution might hint at direct understanding to come (or not come) in the very distant future. BTW Rob, I've often been thinking these days of the way you recommended Samyutta Nikaya to me that day by saying "very deep Dhamma, very deep Dhamma" in a kind of mysterious way. That caught my interest, I guess, because I'm quite absorbed in SN these days! :) Metta Phil 37803 From: plnao Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 Thank you Htoo! I had no idea about this day. A day to feel great gratitude, for sure. Metta, Phil > Tomorrow (28.10.04) is the full moon day when The Buddha finished > preaching Abhidhamma at Deva realm and came down to manussa bhumi or > human realm. > 37804 From: connieparker Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Re: Khandas as disease or dissolution? Hi, Phil, "Why play around with concepts such as disease or alien when we can get straight to dissolution?" Anicca, anatta and dukkha [birth, aging, disease, death; sorrow, lamentation, grief, pain, despair; union with the unpleasant, separation from the pleasant, not getting what we want (pleasure, wealth, fame, praise, health, etc.) ... the 5 aggregates of clinging]. Because sometimes when you're trying to break something it helps to look for more than one weak point. You know the deal - for some he taught this way and for for some another, but for me, he had to keep on and on and on and while there's no doubt that the fault is in the student rather than the teaching, I still haven't got it right. I'm not sure what the 'alien' word is, either, but wonder if it might not be 'external' since there are said to be 11 aspects of each khandha: past, present, future, internal (ajjhattika), external (bahiddha), inferior (hiina), superior (paniita), distant (dure), near (santike), gross (olaarika) and subtle (sukhuma). How we attend to anything is important because if there is a/yoniso manasikaara, the javanas are a/kusala. I guess we've all got our obsessions or 'delights in complication', all those knots we tie our ever so rich storylines together with like our real wealth is there instead of such things as the seven treasures of conviction, virtue, conscience, concern, listening, generosity and discernment. Still, given that papa~nca seems to be my word of the week, I thought the following in Wheel #90/92, Nyanaponika's "The Life of Sariputta", was a nice little gem: Anguttara Nikaya IV, 173: < Discussion with Maha Kotthita on the limits of the explainable. The Venerable Sariputta says: "As far, brother, as the six bases of sense-impression (phassayatana) reach, so far reaches the (explainable) world of diffuseness (papa~nca); and as far as the world of diffuseness reaches, so far reach the six bases of sense-impression. Through the entire fading away and cessation of the six bases of sense impression, the world of diffuseness ceases and is stilled." > I was looking there because I didn't know what the MN74 that TG mentioned was. Doh! Turns out it's the Dighanakha Sutta, "a discourse on the comprehension of feelings" and there was something funny ha-ha about that to me. Interestingly, "...Venerable Sariputta states that he attained to the four kinds of analytical knowledge (patisambhida) two weeks after his ordination, that is, on attaining Arahatship. This fact, and the extensive application of nirutti-patisambhida, "grammatical analysis," in the Niddesa, make it quite probable that he was actually the author of both the Niddesa and the Patisambhida Magga." Meanwhile, I was thinking I'd just foget about your "If one doesn't respond to and respect K Sujin's teaching, and if one doesn't believe Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teaching, wouldn't it be gracious (and sensible) to go elsewhere?" and my "How does anyone learn anything alien to their own way of thinking?", but then this same Wheel rolled on to AN V, 1 5: < Five reasons why people ask questions: through stupidity and foolishness; with evil intentions and through covetousness; with a desire to know; out of contempt; with the thought: "If he answers my question correctly, it is good; if not, then I shall give the correct answer". > What feelings influenced us to phrase the public portion our opinions as questions? ;) I'm sure we've all run across this treasure chest (and a lot of others on holding to any particular point of view as being the only right one) before: "Monks, if others were to speak against me, or against the Teaching, or against our monastic order, you need not on that account entertain thoughts of ill-will and spite, and be dissatisfied with them. If you do harbour hatred that will not only impede your mental development, but you will also fail to judge how far that speech is right or wrong. But also, monks, if others speak highly of me , highly of the Teaching and our monastic order, you need not on that account be elated; for that too will mar your inner development. You should acknowledge what is right and show the truth of what has been said." I am, at times, just a drivelling faith-head with a tendency to resent other people's opinions where my conviction and discernment are weak. There are times, too, when I don't like everything Buddha himself is to have said. As long as I don't have any great direct understanding of the 4 truths, and even then, as long as I'm going to be dealing with concepts anyway, I may as well remember that any idea of self is fertile ground for suffering and all the defilements. Also, that as long as there are selves, I should consider our long-term well-being and benefit/good as Rahula was reminded to reflect before, during and after any act... dana, precepts, all those perfections. All this rambling and I still don't remember something I heard about the measuring, classifying and defining/staying obsessed thingy. Evidently, sati or sa~n~na or both were too weak at the time. peace, connie 37807 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: Rupa The art of ending a discussion Hi Connie and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > Not to confuse nama and rupa, but I like this from Narada's Manual of > Abhidhamma: > < > Inseparably connected with heat is vaayo, the element of motion. Movements > are caused by this element. Motion is regarded as the force or the > generator of heat. "Motion and heat in the material realm correspond > respectively to consciousness and Kamma in the mental." > > I am confused by Ven. Narada's statement. My understanding is that the proximate cause of heat is the other three great essentials, not only motion. I know that Ven. Narada does not typically quote his sources; has anybody else read about this special relationship between heat and motion? Metta, Rob M :-) 37808 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:16pm Subject: saddha, Htoo Hi Htoo, Is saddha (faith, confidence) the kusala equivalent of ditthi (view)? Insofar as reasoning is belief, or at least believed, can we say all reasoning is either ditthi or saddha? Is saddha _conventional_ right view as opposed to panna which is ultimate right view? Larry 37809 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi TG, You are right; we have been talking on different wavelengths. Let's try again, as you say: ---------------------- TG: > Let me try once again. The mental act of conceptualizing is real. > ---------------------- The term 'mental act' is new to me. Is it a dhamma (citta, cetasika, rupa) or is it a concept (pannatti)? ---------------- TG: > The referent of that conceptualization is mere imagination. > ---------------- Interesting! As Howard explained, we normally say the referent can be real (paramattha dhamma) or imaginary (pannatti). If I imagine (have a concept of) what a cetasika might be like, the referent of my imagination is real. If I imagine a computer keyboard the referent is a concept (more imagination). ---------------- TG: > The easiest way to determine whether conceptualization is a process that arises and ceases due to conditions; is to be mindful of thought processes. If the mind is being mindful of thought processes, > ----------------- I'll interrupt you there on a technical point. Strictly speaking, it is the cetasika 'sati' that is mindful. Conditions being the way they are, sati does not often arise in ordinary folk. However, thinking is very common in ordinary folk. When we say our mind is 'being mindful of thought processes' we really mean the mind is thinking about thought processes. ------------------------------- TG: > If the mind is being mindful of thought processes, the mind can pretty easily see that one thought leads to another related thought and so on and so on. It seems to be a clear indication of a series of states that are arising and ceasing in a conditionally related manner. > ------------------------------- It does seem that way. A similar occurrence is observed when a moving billiard ball, sets another billiard ball in motion, and that in turn, sets another one in motion. But the conditionality observed there is not the conditionality taught by the Buddha. Seeing and visible object are conditioned dhammas. And thinking (about thought processes and billiard balls) is a conditioned dhamma. But the thoughts and the billiard balls are not conditioned dhammas. Nor do they arise and fall away in the same [real] way that seeing and thinking arise and fall away. ---------------- TG: > One question... When you say at the end of the previous post (seen below), that during life-continuum-consciousness, where consciousness can take a "concept" as its object, are you saying that -- consciousness can be structured based on an object that isn't real? > ----------------------------- Yes indeed. Consciousness can be supported by object condition (among other conditions) even when the object is imaginary. It is not the object itself, but the taking of an object, that provides object condition. --------------- TG: > Based on my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, that would be impossible. > -------------- I am assured it is all there (in the Pali Canon), but I couldn't tell you exactly where, sorry. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Ken H > > It seemed at some point during your reply you were clear on what I meant > between a "referent of a concept" and the mental act of conceptualization. Then > later I wasn't so sure. Didn't really follow the arguement against what I > presented. 37810 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > If I imagine > (have a concept of) what a cetasika might be like, the referent of > my imagination is real. If I imagine a computer keyboard the > referent is a concept (more imagination). > >=========== Dear Ken, In the example above the object in both cases is pannatti- concept. Not sure what a 'referent' is? Robertk 37811 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi, James - In a message dated 10/27/04 5:19:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > Howard: The matter of continuity is something else, I believe. There > are no gaps between mindstates, at least that is the claim that > Theravadin Abhidhamma makes. So there, already, is a *sort* of > continuity. (That, however, is not the experienced continuity we are > speaking of.) > > James: I am not sure if we discussed this before or not but how > could there possibly be no gaps between mindstates? The Buddha > taught that dhammas arise, persist, and fall away. If there were no > gaps there would never be the point when a mind state had fallen > away, it would just keep persisting forever. Right? > > Metta, James > ============================ The idea is of perfect contiguity, with no "nothingness breaks" separating mindstates, but, instead, the end of one state and the beginning of the next coinciding. I picture it like one sine wave after another after another after another ... With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37812 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/27/04 9:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > >If I imagine > >(have a concept of) what a cetasika might be like, the referent of > >my imagination is real. If I imagine a computer keyboard the > >referent is a concept (more imagination). > > > >=========== > Dear Ken, > In the example above the object in both cases is pannatti- concept. > Not sure what a 'referent' is? > Robertk > ========================= There is no such thing, except in a manner of speaking, as a keyboard, is there? To say that a keyboard is an object of consciousness is not to speak a literal truth, is it? If we "think of a keyboard", does that mean there exists a keyboard that we think of? No. Thinking-of-a-keyboard is an activity, a constructed mental event, but there is no such thing as a keyboard to be thought of or not. It seems to me that there are no such things as pa~n~natti *if*, by the term 'pa~n~natti' one means imagined things, for, by definition, there do not exist imagined things! There are simply thoughts that refer to nothing in reality. There *are*, however, imaginings. They actually occur. They are idea-events. But *their* alleged objects, i.e., their intended referents, do not occur. If I think of a tree, that thought is a "tree idea", and it arises at the mind door, and it is the content of a mindstate. But it is an idea without actual referent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37813 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) In a message dated 10/27/2004 5:30:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: TG: > If the mind is being mindful of thought processes, the mind can pretty easily see that one thought leads to another related thought and so on and so on. It seems to be a clear indication of a series of states that are arising and ceasing in a conditionally related manner. > ------------------------------- It does seem that way. A similar occurrence is observed when a moving billiard ball, sets another billiard ball in motion, and that in turn, sets another one in motion. But the conditionality observed there is not the conditionality taught by the Buddha. Seeing and visible object are conditioned dhammas. And thinking (about thought processes and billiard balls) is a conditioned dhamma. But the thoughts and the billiard balls are not conditioned dhammas. Nor do they arise and fall away in the same [real] way that seeing and thinking arise and fall away. Hi Ken H It seems that you have reached a conclusion about "conditionality principles" that are directly in contrast to the way I understand them. The Buddha's formula of dependent origination is... This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not beling, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases. This formula encompasses every possible conditioned thing including billard balls and the motion of billard balls. The Buddha has, in the Suttas, used examples of mountains wearing away, cities wearing away, bodies wearing away, adze-handles wearing away and shows that these things are wearing away due to conditional interaction. He stresses over and over and over again in the Suttas how ALL conditioned things are impermanent. It is shown as a principle of nature. It just so happens that the subject of the Buddha's teaching teaching is "conditions involved with suffering" so the principle of conditionality finds a great deal of attention applied to the 12 Fold Chain of sufferings causes and effect cycle. This is a very important issue to be very clear about. The only 'thing' that the formula of Dependent Origination does not apply to is "non-conditioned." I.E., Nibbana. The billard balls are most certainly conditioned! TG 37814 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Howard: "It seems to me that there are no such things as pa~n~natti *if*, by the term 'pa~n~natti' one means imagined things, for, by definition, there do not exist imagined things!" Hi Howard, I think this is right. To bring the argument back to TG's point, there is no imagined keyboard and there is no imagined cetasika. However, if you imagine a feeling, the consciousness that imagines the feeling will nevertheless be accompanied by a feeling. So there will be an imaginary (nonexistent) feeling and a real feeling. Also, the imaginary feeling could prompt the arising of an identical, but real, feeling. Not sure what is happening when you type "feeling" with a keyboard. One wrinkle. TG identified perception as a concept maker. If that is the case doesn't that make all identities imaginary? Larry 37815 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi Robert, I hope all is well with you after the storms and earthquakes Japan has been having. -------------------- KH: > > If I imagine > (have a concept of) what a cetasika might be like, the referent of > my imagination is real. If I imagine a computer keyboard the > referent is a concept (more imagination). > > -------------------- RK: > In the example above the object in both cases is pannatti- concept. > --------------------- Yes. I made it more complicated than usual by incorporating TG's word "imagine." When I wrote "the referent of my imagination" I meant "the referent of the concept I am conscious of." My point was simply that some concepts (like the word 'cetasika' or like the 'idea' of a cetasika) refer to paramattha dhammas, while other concepts (like the word, or idea of, keyboard) refer to concepts. ----------------------- RK: > Not sure what a 'referent' is? > ----------------------- It has crept into DSG usage of late, but I don't think it adds any new meanings. I think, "What is referred to by the word 'rectangle?'" can be equally phrased as, "What is the referent of the word 'rectangle?'" In both cases it's 'a four-sided figure with opposite sides equal [and so on].' :-) Ken H 37816 From: Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/27/04 10:26:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "It seems to me that there are no such things as pa~n~natti > *if*, by the term 'pa~n~natti' one means imagined things, for, by > definition, there do not exist imagined things!" > > Hi Howard, > > I think this is right. To bring the argument back to TG's point, there > is no imagined keyboard and there is no imagined cetasika. However, if > you imagine a feeling, the consciousness that imagines the feeling will > nevertheless be accompanied by a feeling. So there will be an imaginary > (nonexistent) feeling and a real feeling. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. There is feeling-imagining, and there is a feeling, two totally different sorts of mental event. --------------------------------------------- Also, the imaginary feeling> > could prompt the arising of an identical, but real, feeling. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Feeling-imagining can prompt the arising of a feeling. Likewise feeling-remembering can prompt the arising of a feeling. In each case, it amounts to one mind-door event (dhamma) conditioning the arising of another. ----------------------------------------- Not sure> > what is happening when you type "feeling" with a keyboard. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever it is, it is a complex sequence of actualities. -------------------------------------------- > > One wrinkle. TG identified perception as a concept maker. If that is the > case doesn't that make all identities imaginary? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I see perception (I would prefer "recognition" or "identification") as a first step in concept formation. But, yes, I think it is true that all identities are imaginary. When we recognize or identify hardness *as* hardness, we have already left experienced hardness and gone on to something imagined (i.e., image-ined), though at a step still close to the original direct experience. -------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37817 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > I hope all is well with you after the storms and earthquakes Japan > has been having. > > -------------------- Hi Ken, It was a little windy last week, but no problems personally. =========== > KH: > > If I imagine > > (have a concept of) what a cetasika might be like, the referent of > > my imagination is real. If I imagine a computer keyboard the > > referent is a concept (more imagination). > > > > -------------------- > RK: > In the example above the object in both cases is pannatti- > concept. > > --------------------- > > Yes. I made it more complicated than usual by incorporating TG's > word "imagine." When I wrote "the referent of my imagination" I > meant "the referent of the concept I am conscious of." My point was > simply that some concepts (like the word 'cetasika' or like > the 'idea' of a cetasika) refer to paramattha dhammas, while other > concepts (like the word, or idea of, keyboard) refer to concepts. > > ----------------------- > RK: > Not sure what a 'referent' is? > > ----------------------- > > It has crept into DSG usage of late, but I don't think it adds any > new meanings. I think, "What is referred to by the > word 'rectangle?'" can be equally phrased as, "What is the referent > of the word 'rectangle?'" In both cases it's 'a four-sided figure > with opposite sides equal [and so on].' ============ Ok I am lost. When the texts talk about the object of consciouness as either a concept (panatti) or an element (dhatu) how does this relate to referents and so on. I always like the way the Abhidhamma is so direct - it points to the present moment. It is very clear but when I read posts like this it is beyond my understanding, seems so philosophical. Sorry for being direct. Robertk 37818 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:44pm Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Friend Howard (and all), Howard: The idea is of perfect contiguity, with no "nothingness breaks" separating mindstates, but, instead, the end of one state and the beginning of the next coinciding. I picture it like one sine wave after another after another after another ... James: I still don't get it. If there were no gaps it would be impossible to differentiate one mind state from another. There would simply be `peaks' in one continuous mind stream. (I looked up `sine', to picture what you are referring to, and this is the definition I found: "The ordinate of the endpoint of an arc of a unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system, the arc being of length x and measured counterclockwise from the point (1, 0) if x is positive or clockwise if x is negative." Is this what you are referring to? If so, how can the arc of a circle relate to waves?) Metta, James 37819 From: Andrew Date: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika! Whereupon the Sautrantika grabbed him by the ears... Dear DN Thanks for your kind words. Over a number of posts, I have in my own coy and blushing way tried to get you to expand on the place of saddha in your own personal practice. Why? Because you are very widely read and have obviously put alot of effort into understanding the Dhamma and therefore, in my book, your views are worthy of serious consideration. I don't think you have yet given a frank answer but I won't go so far as to make an accusation of eel- wriggling. (-: My impression so far is that seemingly outlandish things in the suttas you overlook, but anything remotely outlandish in the commentaries is howled down as "twaddle". Why so? You wrote: Those with amuulika saddhaa, you may > recall, were compared to builders who build a staircase > leading up to a mansion that doesn't exist; Andrew: If a teacher tells you a mansion exists and you should build a staircase to it, must you verify the existence of the mansion first before starting work on the staircase? If not, at what point should you stop building and expect/demand verification? To put it another way, is saddha only to arise "after verification" ? If so, "faith" is a very bad translation, is it not? You have given me the impression to date that faith before verification is drivel. I note Frank Hoffman writes of saddha being important both before and after verification. Do you disagree with him? Sorry for labouring the point, but I am a particularly hard nut to crack in some respects. (-: Also, in a post to Ken H, you quoted from Lance Cousins. Could you please give the reference? I only have a 1996 article by him in JBE and I don't think that's the one you quoted. Best wishes Andrew T 37820 From: plnao Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandas as disease or dissolution? Hi Connie > "Why play around with concepts such as disease or alien when we can get > straight to dissolution?" Anicca, anatta and dukkha [birth, aging, > disease, death; sorrow, lamentation, grief, pain, despair; union with the > unpleasant, separation from the pleasant, not getting what we want > (pleasure, wealth, fame, praise, health, etc.) ... the 5 aggregates of > clinging]. Because sometimes when you're trying to break something it > helps to look for more than one weak point. You know the deal - for some > he taught this way and for for some another, but for me, he had to keep on > and on and on and while there's no doubt that the fault is in the student > rather than the teaching, I still haven't got it right. Phil: Well said. "when you're trying to break soemthing it helps to look for more than one weak point." The Buddha throws a lot of healing our way, and it lands at the points where our accumulations are rising to meet it. Well, "throw" sounds a bit disrespectful. But he certainly offers a wide range of remedies. There are times the concept of disease will be helpful, other times when a dissolution can be experienced kinda directly. Another one I came across today was a burden that we can lay down. All helpful. >I'm not sure what > the 'alien' word is, either, but wonder if it might not be 'external' > since there are said to be 11 aspects of each khandha: past, present, > future, internal (ajjhattika), external (bahiddha), inferior (hiina), > superior (paniita), distant (dure), near (santike), gross (olaarika) and > subtle (sukhuma). Phil: I'd taken that 'external' to mean that we can have unwise attention to the nama and rupa of others, for example the lovely form of others, or unpleasant forms that cause revulsion. But I probably misunderstood. That would only apply to rupa/form, I guess. >How we attend to anything is important because if there > is a/yoniso manasikaara, the javanas are a/kusala. Phil: You mention that papanca is your word of the week. For me, my word of the month is yoniso manasikara. I will want to be figuring out how panna, sati and yoniso manasikara are related. My sense now is that yoniso manasikara is like a hand that holds the object up, sati the faculty that notices that the hand is holding it up, and panna the vision that penetrates it, or illuminates it. I wonder if that's close at all? > Meanwhile, I was thinking I'd just foget about your "If one doesn't > respond to and respect K Sujin's teaching, and if one doesn't believe > Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teaching, wouldn't it be gracious (and > sensible) to go elsewhere?" and my "How does anyone learn anything alien > to their own way of thinking?", but then this same Wheel rolled on to AN > V, 1 5: < Five reasons why people ask questions: through stupidity and > foolishness; with evil intentions and through covetousness; with a desire > to know; out of contempt; with the thought: "If he answers my question > correctly, it is good; if not, then I shall give the correct answer". > Phil: I sometimes ask questions out of conceit - Look! I am clever enough to know that I don't know this. As for the question above, I think I was asking it out of a kind of greed. My bhavana would be much purer if only people who have taken refuge in the The Buddha, The Dhamma (including all three branches of the Buddha's teaching) and the Sangha (including the ancient commentators, who are not infallible but certainly had deeper insight than anyone tooling around on the internet) participated here. And also a kind of hiding from the dosa that arises when I read rude language in posts. Of course, this provides opportunities for panna to see the dosa as anatta, annica and dukkha, making the citta kusala but I get enough of that in my daily life. I don't have an opportunity to have Dhamma talks "in the flesh" so secretly (well, not so secretly) wish that posts could follow the same kind of right speech that I imagine rules at the talks going on right now in India. Yes, I still think that those who are unable or unwilling to discuss Dhamma in the gentle, courteous tones favoured by the Buddha and his disciples should piss off!!! Oops! I didn't mean to say that! See the conditioning effect rude speech has on this delicate, impressionable bundle of quivering rupa and nama? (snip > I am, at times, just > a drivelling faith-head with a tendency to resent other people's opinions > where my conviction and discernment are weak. There are times, too, when > I don't like everything Buddha himself is to have said. Phil: Me too. . But actually, the main reason I sometimes resent other people's opinions is that I suspect that some people with very good insight into Abhidhamma might possibly - stress on possibly - be discouraged from participating because of having become fed up at having to constantly deal with infidels! I learn a lot from people here, and I want to learn more. So it's more greed. Gaargh. Gotta run. I'll be rereading your post more carefully after i print it out. Metta Phil 37821 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/27/04 11:47:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Ok I am lost. When the texts talk about the object of consciouness > as either a concept (panatti) or an element (dhatu) how does this > relate to referents and so on. I always like the way the Abhidhamma > is so direct - it points to the present moment. It is very clear but > when I read posts like this it is beyond my understanding, seems so > philosophical. Sorry for being direct. > Robertk > ========================= If I may, I'd like to explain what I mean, though it may well differ from what Ken means. I will explain by examples. i) When I remember an experienced hardness, the object of that mindstate is a mind-door object, specifically, a memory, and the referent of that memory is the previously perceived hardness. ii) When I perceive or recognize a currently experienced hardness (as such), the object of that mindstate is a mind-door object, a percept - the most elementary sort of concept, and the referent of that percept is the body-door object that is the actual hardness. iii) When I *think* of hardness, the object of the mindstate is a mind-door object, a concept/idea. The intended referent of that idea was never directly experienced through any sense door and is a merely imagined abstract entity called "hardness". An idea which seems to have a referent but does not is, of course, a delusive idea. However, this particular idea, while delusive and concept-only (i.e., having no true referent), is still well grounded in that there are many actual, mutually related experiences that could legitimately be called "instances" of that idea. iv) Ideas of "self" or of "righteous anger" or of "useful ignorance", however, are examples of fully delusive ideas, not even having any instances let alone actual referents. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37822 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi James - In a message dated 10/28/04 12:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard (and all), > > Howard: The idea is of perfect contiguity, with no "nothingness > breaks" separating mindstates, but, instead, the end of one state > and the beginning of the next coinciding. I picture it like one sine > wave after another after another after another ... > > James: I still don't get it. If there were no gaps it would be > impossible to differentiate one mind state from another. There > would simply be `peaks' in one continuous mind stream. (I looked > up `sine', to picture what you are referring to, and this is the > definition I found: "The ordinate of the endpoint of an arc of a > unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system, > the arc being of length x and measured counterclockwise from the > point (1, 0) if x is positive or clockwise if x is negative." Is > this what you are referring to? If so, how can the arc of a circle > relate to waves?) > > Metta, James > ================================= Well, maybe a sequence of cosine waves would give a simpler picture. Imagine a sequence of hills and valleys, one after the other. Starting at a valley there is a gradual sloping upwards to a rounded peak which gradually slopes downwards then to the next valley, and then upwards again ... . It's no different from ocean waves rolling in one after the other. Each trough is the ending of one mindstate and also the start of the next. The troughs (or valleys) themselves are low levels of consciousness, but they are not consciousness gaps. What one has is a continuity, and yet a distinguishing of hills of consciousness is possible. The mindstates, however, are not discretely separate from each other, but continuously flow one into the other. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37823 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:10am Subject: General request about redundancy Hallo all, It's my experience to it's much easier to read a message when it's not polluted with long quotes of the message to which it reacts. So my question is: avoid redundancy and only quote the central statement of the message on which you want to react, and delete the rest before pushing the button of "Send" With metta Joop 37824 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:25am Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Friend Howard, Howard: The troughs (or valleys)themselves are low levels of consciousness, but they are not consciousness gaps. What one has is a continuity, and yet a distinguishing of hills of consciousness is possible. James: Okay, I could accept that except then there won't be the `falling away' that the Buddha spoke of. I view this process you describe as `persisting' with no 'falling away'. One other question, and not to be discourteous, but has your meditation experience revealed to you this type of process? I have done insight meditation, focused on the `falling away' aspect of nama and rupa, and I could have sworn that I discerned gaps! Actually, it was somewhat unsettling. However, my concentration may not have been that strong and maybe what I discerned was actually something else entirely. I posted about this to dhamma-list before and Joyce (in her typical smart-alecky fashion ;-) had alluded that it was something else I experienced. Anyway, now I am rambling. Feel free to respond to this tread or we can just drop it. It isn't that important anyway. Metta, James 37825 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 Dear Phil, We all are indebted to our parents. We will never be able to repay in full back. The Buddha Gotama gave His gratitute back to His father. He helped His father attaining arahatship. As His father was alive, He could repaid His gratitute. But for His late mother, He could not do anything on this earth. But He ascended up to Tavatimsa to preach the most deepest Dhamma. Actually His late mother who was reborn in Deva realm was not in Tavatimsa. She was reborn as a Deva ( male celestial being ) called Samtussita Deva. That is the 4th Deva realm. Abhidhamma was preached at 2nd Deva realm. This is the place for all Devas. All Deva can attend if they wish. If Abhidhamma was preached where His late mother lives, then the first lower 3 Deva realms including Sakka or Indra or Magha or the king of Deva would not be able to attend. The Buddha finished Abhidhamma preaching on such day of full moon day ( 7th solar months based on 12 zodiac signs where Aries is the first month ). The Buddha came down to human realm. It is said that The Buddha descended in three special stairs. They are golden, silver, and ruby stairs. On the ground on the earth were kings, queens, and many people waiting to worship The Buddha. They were all lighting candles, torches, etc etc. In Myanmar, today is held as lighting festival. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Thank you Htoo! > I had no idea about this day. > A day to feel great gratitude, for sure. > > Metta, > Phil > > Tomorrow (28.10.04) is the full moon day when The Buddha finished > > preaching Abhidhamma at Deva realm and came down to manussa bhumi or > > human realm. > > 37826 From: connieparker Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:51am Subject: ps - Phil hiya, Phil, I forgot to answer about pa.ticcasamuppaada, dependent arising/origination [pa.ticca - because of, on account of. samuppaada - arising, origination] - the 12-links [ignorance, conditioning activities, (rebirth) consciousness, mind-and-matter, 6 sense bases, contact, feeling, grasping, becoming, birth, decay-death-sorrow-lamentation-pain-grief-and-despair]. The 'cause'/condition is the paccaya and the 'effect'/conditioned is the paccayuppanna although you're more likely to find those terms in explanations of the more complex method (naya/~naaya) for explaining the whole mess. That's pa.t.thaana, which uses 24 conditional relations: root, object, predominance, contiguity, immediacy, co-nascence, mutuality, dependence, sufficing dependence, antecedence, post-nascence, repetition, kamma, effect, nutriment, control, jhaana, path, association, dissociation, presence, absence, separation, non-separation. peace, connie 37827 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:50am Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Dear Dhamma Friends, May I join your discussion. Anantara paccaya indicates 'no gap' between mindstates. Antara means 'gap' 'interval' 'spacing'. Ana or 'A' means 'no' 'not' 'nothing'. Anantara means 'no interval' 'no gap'. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Friend Howard, > > Howard: The matter of continuity is something else, I believe. There > are no gaps between mindstates, at least that is the claim that > Theravadin Abhidhamma makes. So there, already, is a *sort* of > continuity. (That, however, is not the experienced continuity we are > speaking of.) > > James: I am not sure if we discussed this before or not but how > could there possibly be no gaps between mindstates? The Buddha > taught that dhammas arise, persist, and fall away. If there were no > gaps there would never be the point when a mind state had fallen > away, it would just keep persisting forever. Right? > > Metta, James 37828 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: saddha, Htoo Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Is saddha (faith, confidence) the kusala equivalent of ditthi (view)? Insofar as reasoning is belief, or at least believed, can we say all reasoning is either ditthi or saddha? Is saddha _conventional_ right view as opposed to panna which is ultimate right view? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Thanks for your question. Actually your have a better knowledge than me in Abhidhamma. Even though it may be a kusala equivalent, they are not direct opposite. Absence of saddha does not always cause arising of ditthi. Absence of saddha may cause arising of other akusala such as lobha, mana. And absence of ditthi does not cause arising of saddha. I do not know how to put 'reasoning' under classification in terms of abhidhamma. Saddha is not still conventioanl right view [ my opinion ]. Right view means 'pannindriya cetasika' whatever it is conventional or ultimate. It is not saddha. Saddha is a cloud remover. Saddha is a silt-filter. Saddha is a depositor. Saddha does not have to do with right view even though saddha may be associated with right view. That is right view whether conventioal or ultimate is always associated with saddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37829 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi, James - In a message dated 10/28/04 9:32:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Friend Howard, > > Howard: The troughs (or valleys)themselves are low levels of > consciousness, but they are not consciousness gaps. What one has is > a continuity, and yet a distinguishing of hills of consciousness is > possible. > > James: Okay, I could accept that except then there won't be > the `falling away' that the Buddha spoke of. I view this process > you describe as `persisting' with no 'falling away'. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I see the going down a slope into a valley as the "falling away". ------------------------------------------- One other > > question, and not to be discourteous, but has your meditation > experience revealed to you this type of process? I have done > insight meditation, focused on the `falling away' aspect of nama and > rupa, and I could have sworn that I discerned gaps! Actually, it > was somewhat unsettling. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: When there is the discerning of a "gap", there is still a discerning. So where is the consciousness "gap" then? I believe the "gaps" are the valleys, and they are not a nothingness. As far as experiencing them - yes, I have. --------------------------------------------- However, my concentration may not have > > been that strong and maybe what I discerned was actually something > else entirely. I posted about this to dhamma-list before and Joyce > (in her typical smart-alecky fashion ;-) had alluded that it was > something else I experienced. Anyway, now I am rambling. Feel free > to respond to this tread or we can just drop it. It isn't that > important anyway. ----------------------------------- Howard: That's so - not really very important. What is important, as I see it, is that there is an unstoppable flux, with no aspect of it lasting or controllable or self-existent or substantial. ----------------------------------- > > Metta, James ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37830 From: Ken O Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi Howard and James I hope this sutta quotes help in your dicussion Also SN ii.95 “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by day as by night, one arises when another perishes.” Ken O 37831 From: Ken O Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Future Potential of Sense-objects Hi Antony hmmm because we do not have a microsopic eyes, maybe we can see that elections, protons etc keep moving all the times :) just a thought Ken O 37832 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/28/04 11:26:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard and James > > I hope this sutta quotes help in your dicussion > > > Also SN ii.95 > “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, > and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so > bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by > day as by night, one arises when another perishes.â€? > > > Ken O > ========================== Thank you. Yes, I think this is perfect! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37833 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:39am Subject: Brief India update (Sikkim) Hello again We arrived at Gantok in this Himalayan state at 8:00PM (one hour ago) after another marathon day's travelling starting with a 4:00AM wake-up call at our hotel in Patna (Bihar state), a flight to Bagdogra and then a bus journey starting at 10:30AM with a stop for lunch along the way. Sikkim is a welcome change from the dry, dusty lowlands, and we are looking forward to a good day's rest tomorrow, before heading back to Bagdogra for the flight to Kolcatta (Calcutta). We are hoping to get some time tomorrow to catch up with reading all the recent posts. Will try and post some more soon. Cheers Jon 37834 From: Ken O Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:41am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi Howard Just a Sutta quote SN II, 20:6 The Archers “Bhikkhus, as swift as the man is, still swifter are the sun and the moon. As swift as the man is, and as swift as are the sun and moon, and as swift as are the dieties that run before the sun and moon, the vital formations perish even more swiftly than that. Therefore, Bhikkhus, you should train yourself thus: “We will dwell diligently.” thus should you train yourselves." (vital formations = physical life faculty). Ken O 37835 From: Ken O Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief India update (Sikkim) Hi Jon Take your time, no hurry :) Send my regards to A Sujin - wishes her good health, free of worries - tell her if kamma permits, we will meet again. Ken O 37836 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:59am Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hey Howard: H> That's so - not really very important. What is important, as I see it, is that there is an unstoppable flux, with no aspect of it lasting or controllable or self-existent or substantial. You of course know how to generate a (co)sine wave from a circle? The cycle of samsara is continuous till we stop the wheel and get off. PEACE E 37837 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 098 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 14 akusala cetasikas and they are destructive ministers of the king citta. We have discussed on 4 cetasikas led by moha cetasika, who is the king of akusala. After that we discussed on 3 cetasikas led by a small king lobha cetasika. There left another small king in akusala kingdom. He is dosa cetasika. In the kingdom of dosa or aversion or hatred, there are 4 cetasikas. They are 1.dosa or aversion, 2.issa or jealousy, 3.macchariya or stinginess, and 4.kukkucca or worry. Everyone in this world on this earth know dosa or aversion very well. As soon as people are born here as a human being, all have to cry out. This is because of dosa or aversion. Anagams are called non-returners. This means they never return to sensual sphere or they never return to kama bhumis that is they will never be reborn in kama bhumis. Because they do not have any dosa or aversion. They all have eradicated dosa or aversion at anagami magga kala. All human beings are born crying and those who do not have dosa or aversion will not be reborn as a human being. All Sammasambuddhas are born human beings. All paccekabuddhas are born human beings. But not all arahats are born human beings. We can observe dosa or aversion through out our life. Especially in these days, as there are much much more stress than ever before, dosa or aversion become part and parcel of daily life. Dosa is not a citta or consciousness. Dosa is a mental factor. It is a cetasika. It arises with a citta and it advises the king citta to get angry. Dosa advises not only the king citta but also all other associated cetasikas to follow the king and to behave angry. Dosa is a destructive minister of the king citta, who is the leader of all mental faculties. Dosa leads people to commit different kinds of akusala including the most wicked crimes. Killing is mostly committed by dosa. Pharussa vaca or harsh speech is also commited by dosa. Pisuna vaca or divisive speech that separates 2 beloved people to be apart is also committed by dosa. Words wars to weaponic wars, terrorists' attacks, assassinations, assaults, fightings etc etc are all led by dosa. Dosa is so strong that it has to be killed three times by three different weapons of magga nana. Only after the third attack, dosa is eradicated. Sotapatti magga nana kills vitikkama dosa and all sotapams will never kill any form of beings. That is why sotapams are not reborn in lower 4 realms of apaya namely niraya or hell, tiracchanna or animals, peta or hungry ghosts and asurakaya or demons. Sakadagami magga nana further thins out dosa and they have a maximum of further 2 lives to live their samsara before they do parinibbana. Only at anagami magga kala, all forms of dosa are eradicated and anagams are totally free of any dosa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37838 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi, Eric - In a message dated 10/28/04 12:00:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > You of course know how to generate a (co)sine wave > from a circle? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. Most easily from the unit circle. ------------------------------------------- The cycle of samsara is continuous> > till we stop the wheel and get off. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but the question remains: Does"the wheel" stop, or do we just let go of it and get off? And, in fact, does that getting off the wheel amount to an actual getting off, or is it more in the way of realizing that the wheel was never a real wheel, and there never was a person to get off that imagined wheel? Obviously, the form of the question already suggests my answer. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37839 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hey Howard, ------------------------------------------- E> The cycle of samsara is continuous> > till we stop the wheel and get off. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but the question remains: Does"the wheel" stop, or do we just let go of it and get off? And, in fact, does that getting off the wheel amount to an actual getting off, or is it more in the way of realizing that the wheel was never a real wheel, and there never was a person to get off that imagined wheel? Obviously, the form of the question already suggests my answer. Whatever imagery that helps is best. PEACE E 37840 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 02 ) II. FORGOTTEN PAST LEFT THAT FAR We did have our past. At least we have the past in this life, if you do not believe many lives. Some may remember their past events vividly, mainly in the form of physical events something like movies playing back. Some,on the other hand, also remember mental feelings and reactions during their past events. These mental feelings and reactions in the mind were events in the mind in our past. There are different events. Events are nothing but things that happen or things that occur. The other way to describe what events are is that events are existences that arise, persist and vanish. Events may be our seeing. Or the sight that we had seen. They may be our hearing. Or the sounds that we had heard. They may be our smelling. Or the smell that we had smelled. They may be our tasting. Or the taste that we had tasted. They may be our touching. Or the touch that we had touched. Thinking is an activity. We are thinking. We are in activity. What we are thinking are our thoughts. Events may well be our thinking. Or the thoughts that we had thought in the past. Still there are non-events things. These do not arise. These do not exist at all and so these non-events do not fall away or vanish. Even though we are steadfastly proceeding forward in time panel, there does exist the past. These past events do leave their footprints in our mind. When we are all the time proceeding forward in temporal sense, we most of the time do not remember past events. Because they have left that far. However, whenever there are conditions, there events may arise again at least in our mind as the past events with the force of present representative events. This may have good or bad effect. If those past events are unwholesome events, then this sort of remembrance and re-feeling would create extra effect added to already existing bad potentials. That is why we all should stay the present. But learning always takes the lessons from the past or from the experiences. So, to learn our mind effectively, we need to know how our mind works, what it has done, what it did, what it does at the moment and we need to see our mind whatever it does. This is our beginning of tracing the mind track. The mind does leave its track. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37841 From: connieparker Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed Hi, Howard and James, I think that the 'consciousness gaps' might be when the cittas are bhavangas/life-continuum, which would occur between the sense-door and mind-door processes that we usually think of as consciousness. I don't know if there's ever a time we can know what the bhavangas' object is. peace, connie 37842 From: plnao Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ps - Phil Thanks Connie. The Pali term had slipped my mind. At least I don't call it co-dependency origination like I used to. BTW, I forgot to thank you for the post re khandas as alien. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "connieparker" To: "dsg" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:51 PM Subject: [dsg] ps - Phil > > > hiya, Phil, > > I forgot to answer about pa.ticcasamuppaada, dependent arising/origination > [pa.ticca - because of, on account of. samuppaada - arising, origination] > - the 12-links [ignorance, conditioning activities, (rebirth) > consciousness, mind-and-matter, 6 sense bases, contact, feeling, grasping, > becoming, birth, decay-death-sorrow-lamentation-pain-grief-and-despair]. > The 'cause'/condition is the paccaya and the 'effect'/conditioned is the > paccayuppanna although you're more likely to find those terms in > explanations of the more complex method (naya/~naaya) for explaining the > whole mess. That's pa.t.thaana, which uses 24 conditional relations: > root, object, predominance, contiguity, immediacy, co-nascence, mutuality, > dependence, sufficing dependence, antecedence, post-nascence, repetition, > kamma, effect, nutriment, control, jhaana, path, association, > dissociation, presence, absence, separation, non-separation. > > peace, > connie 37843 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Continuity and Speed Hi, Connie (and James) - In a message dated 10/28/04 6:21:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@i... writes: > Hi, Howard and James, > > I think that the 'consciousness gaps' might be when the cittas are > bhavangas/life-continuum, which would occur between the sense-door and > mind-door processes that we usually think of as consciousness. I don't > know if there's ever a time we can know what the bhavangas' object is. > > peace, > connie > ========================== Well, could be, but it strains belief I would say. My comments, despite my appreciation of the attractiveness of the notion of bhavanga cittas, are negative, as follows: 1) If there are such things as bhavanga cittas, they are still states of consciousness, not unconsciousness, and, thus, not gaps in consciousness. 2) So far as I know, bhavanga cittas are not mentioned in the suttas or even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka or the Vinaya Pitaka, which circumstance, if true, means that the Buddha never taught of such things. 3) An unobservable object of consciousness is no object at all. Despite my negative assessment of this, Connie, I think your raising of bhavanga cittas in this context made a lot of sense, and I appreciate your mentioning of it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37844 From: plnao Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 Hello Htoo >>> The Buddha came down to human realm. It is said that The Buddha descended in three special stairs. They are golden, silver, and ruby stairs. On the ground on the earth were kings, queens, and many people waiting to worship The Buddha. They were all lighting candles, torches, etc etc. In Myanmar, today is held as lighting festival. Phil: That's beautiful, Htoo. Tonight I think I'll light some candles in honour of the Buddha's teaching of Abhidhamma. In Myanmar, do you greet each other with a wai gesture like in Thailand? I think that is a beautiful way to honour the Buddha in one another. Here in Japan the only time we very rarely see this "gassho" unless we practice martial arts. Metta, Phil P.S When I first came across teachings like the above, my rational mind resisted. But it seems to me that one of the functions of panna which confirms the Buddha's teaching in daily life is to dissolve the obstacles that hinder access to sublime teachings. We become more pliant, more flexible. I think of the wholesome cetasikas that have to do with pliancy, malleability. I can't remember the details, but I think their arising has something to do with one's growing ability to appreciate sublime teachings. Others would talk of being brainwashed, of course. 37845 From: Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 098 ) Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply on saddha. I'll have to think about it some more and try to see how saddha is different from ditthi. However, I have a question about dosa and lobha. I don't see how like and dislike are akusala. I would think it is the volition (cetana) that wants to do something about like and dislike that is akusala. Like and dislike by themselves seem kammicly neutral. Like isn't necessarily want and dislike isn't necessarily hatred or intention to harm. Is avoiding unpleasant feeling akusala? How does abhidhamma explain this? Larry 37846 From: Andrew Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:15pm Subject: Sariputta's Answer Hello everyone I am currently reading through volume 1 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. In the Nidanavagga 32(2)(i), the Buddha asks Sariputta how he would answer this question "... through what kind of deliverance have you declared final knowledge thus: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being'?" Sariputta said he would answer that question thus: "... through an internal deliverance, through the destruction of all clinging, I dwell mindfully in such a way that the taints do not flow within me and I do not despise myself." The Buddha approved this answer. This is one of those many sutta passages that is not clear to me and requires further explanation. Left to myself, I would most certainly get the meaning completely wrong, particularly the "I do not depise myself" part. BB's note #99 explains that Sariputta attained arahantship while contemplating the internal formations; and "I do not despise myself" indicates the abandonment of self-contempt (omana). Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority conceit (as it is called in Nyanatiloka's dictionary)? Any takers? Best wishes Andrew T 37847 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi TG, ------------------ TG: > It seems that you have reached a conclusion about "conditionality principles" that are directly in contrast to the way I understand them. > ------------------ You have been around DSG, on and off, for almost as long as I have. So you know the teaching I am referring to - the Buddhadhamma as found in all three Pitakas and their ancient commentaries. You know I am talking about nama and rupa, (which are ultimately real and which are conditioned) as opposed to concepts (which are ultimately unreal and which are neither conditioned nor unconditioned). ---------------- TG: > The Buddha's formula of dependent origination is... This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not beling, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases. > ---------------- My understanding of Dependent Origination is that we should see conditioned dhammas in all things at all times. ------------- TG: > This formula encompasses every possible conditioned thing including billard balls and the motion of billard balls. ------------- You know what my response to that will be, don't you? When the mind is thinking that billiard balls really exist, actually, there are only conditioned dhammas. I recommend you study the Abhidhamma and learn about these conditioned dhammas. Unlike concepts of durability (mountains), satisfactoriness (happiness) and self (you and me), dhammas can be directly known, in the present moment, as having the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Try doing that to a billiard ball! :-) --------------------------- TG: > The Buddha has, in the Suttas, used examples of mountains wearing away, cities wearing away, bodies wearing away, adze-handles wearing away > --------------------------- In all those examples, there are really no mountains and so on, there are only conditioned dhammas. ----------------- TG: > and shows that these things are wearing away due to conditional interaction > ----------------- A mountain, as we conventionally know it, is in some cases being worn away and in other cases being built up. Cities and human bodies are the same - old ones are decaying, young ones are growing. If a mountain is being worn away, that is due to still more concepts (running water, landslides etc.), not to conditions (paccaya). However, it can be understood as a metaphor for one of the rupas which are actually present, here and now, and which do, in fact, rise and fall away due to paccaya. Ken H 37848 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:48pm Subject: India7 Dear All, India 3,4 and 6 are still in a word doc that can't be downloaded - maybe Calcutta! At least we have access to a computer here in Sikkim. I'm torn between looking at the snowy peaks and sending a brief note out before b'fast. As Jon said, it was another long bus-ride yesterday in a small, cramped bus with child-size seats, through beautiful green forests, round windy, windy roads until it grew dark and we had no idea where we were. I wondered if we went over the side whether anyone would ever find us....but we arrived into our cozy hotels.... The last day of the holy sites was another highlight. Nalanda, where a small group of us sat in the large open garden in the sun, drinking chai and discussing more about realities and the importance of detachment from whatever is conditioned now. More will come out later. And then, a highlight of the trip for all I think - the climb up to Vulture's Peak just outside Rajghir, which is always a special place for me and many others too. I walked up slowly and steadily with Nina and the beautiful, clear views of the surrounding hills and plateaus could be seen. We passed the place where Devadatta through the stone at the Buddha and near the top, we paid our respects at the entrance of the Mogallana's cave, still just as it would have been 2500 years ago. Some found it the most inspiring spot of all. Just before the top, we also paid respect at Sariputta's cave. Up the last little steep climb to the top. We paid respect at the remains of Ananda's kuti at the entrance and then at the Buddha's kuti itself. Pinna, a friend with us who has spent meany years researching the remains, told me the stone foundations at the sites would be the original ones, but the bricks on top would have been placed a little later, if I got it right. We all (over 100 of us) sat at the top as the sun went down and K.Sujin gave a short talk in Thai while a Thai bhikkhu from the temple we'd visited earlier (and used to stay in on previous trips)officiated and also spoke. Some of us lingered for a while and as we climbed down from the top, some of us scrambled round the corner to also pay respect at Maha Kassapa's cave until we were told to leave in case the old snake came out! As the buses left the area, we stopped to visit Jivaka's grove and monastery - remains to be seen, the prison where Bimbisara was kept and of special significance, Velavanna, Bimbisara's Bamboo grove where the first monastery was established. There are no remains left. Pinna told me this is because it was established in haste, probably overnight from bamboo, rather than stone. The Patimokkha was first recited here during the Oct full moon (I think - b.c much is said in Thai and I wander off, I miss lots). Anyway, it was a full moon as most listened to the Thai bhikkhu again reciting the Patimokka while a few of us walked around the large bathing area which again dates to the earliest days, I believe. And now Sikkhim for R & R, but so far the jury is out on whether the long bus ride yest (to be repeated back tomorrow)will qualify it as R & R....Still, most of us are back in reasonable health and all in good spirits and looking forward to more dhamma discussion today as we opt out of any more side-tours;-). I'll speak from Calcutta or Hong Kong. I have a letter from Nina (she's just given it to me) to type in and send if I have another moment. Metta, Sarah ======== 37849 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Message from Nina -- 'India impresions' [Nina has written the following few words and asked me to send them] India impressions Dear Friends We learnt that we cannot choose the circumstances of our life we are in. It is conditioned whether we have agreeable or disagreeable experiences. And these change all the time. A. Sujin reminded us that sati and panna or lobha and dosa are gone immediately. The holy places were very impressive and very suitable for Dhamma conversations. The endless bus rides on bumpy roads and narrow seats were hard to bear. Still, it was worthwhile to be on this journey. The constant reminders in the situation we were in were effective. A. Sujin stressed all the time that panna leads to detachment. When there is no panna and we have pain it is “my pain” all the time. When panna arises pain is just “a reality”, a dhamma, arisen because of conditions. We heard this before, but now these words become more meaningful. I see you November 8. With best wishes, Nina 37850 From: plnao Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Message from Nina -- 'India impresions' Hello Nina, Jon and all > A. Sujin stressed all the time that panna leads to detachment. When there > is no panna and we have pain it is "my pain" all the time. When panna > arises pain is just "a reality", a dhamma, arisen because of conditions. > We heard this before, but now these words become more meaningful. Ph: I was just reflecting on this sort of thing as I walked home. I was really tired after having taught some diffcult students all day. And then grocery shopping, and a long walk to return some overdue library books. As I trudged along, I remembered having read something about the way we identify with tiredness, with sickness, and see them as self. I have a small pocket notebook in which I have written down some of my teachings from the Buddha or quotations from other teachers. I sat on a bench as I waited for a red light and fished it out and found the passage, from Nina's book on the Perfections, in the chapter on patience: "When we are tired or sick, we take tiredness or sickness as self. Why do we not accept unpleasant tings as they are, since they are only elements?" Whether we call them paramattha dhammas, or khandas, or ultimate realities, or whatever, they are elements, impermanent and not-self. There is no need to cling to stories about one's fatigue. The dosa related to fatigue seems to go on and on and on, but in fact it is constantly falling away and re-arising. When we see into its conditioned nature, there is an opportunity to be liberated from it to some modest but still very helpful degree. I felt quite lightened as I walked along. Metta, Phil "Panna which performs the function of detachment is the highest form of upekkha." Another very helpful teaching - but I don't know where it came from. 37851 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:39am Subject: "Picking the Flowers" and compassion Hello all, India reduces one to writing in cliches - fascination, overwhelming, repulsive, heartbreaking, enthralling - Those with this particular pilgrimage group who had been to India thirty years or so ago find a few of the Holy Places changed beyond recognition (International Wats, more convservation and care being taken). But they say the noise, the crowds, the smells, the colours, the movement of India remains the same. Pairs of mindstates seem to be always impinging on consciousness: attachment/aversion compassion/and it's near enemy pity friendliness/irritation energy/exhaustion Sometimes relating Abhidhamma to daily life is difficult for me - who but Abhidhammikas could explain that the man begging with the shrivelled stump of an arm was simply 'visible object'? For me, it is the animals who tug at the heartstrings - a young mother dog at Lumbini, very thin, ribs showing, clear evidence ofnursing many litters of puppies and pregnant once again. (May there be a more fortunate rebirth next time for this sad and gentle being.) A week old kitten with a new-born croaking voice staggering alone in the Tibetan temple. The Lama offered to give it to me as it snuggled againstmy shoulder - tried to explain Australia's quarantine laws would mean its' death. Mangy dogs and hens scratching in the dust with 90% of feathers missing and red sore skin showing through. (Reminder to self: next time, bring some medicines, washes, ointments for the animals and birds), and water buffalo, cows and ponies everywhere. The Cows of India are a major visual memory. Placid and fearless, in large numbers in the centre of large cities, sitting in the middle of the main roads, traffic detouring around, no one reproaching the cows who are given right of way. Only once in a side alley, did I see a cow being shoo-ed away. Eight and ten hours in a buswith over a hundred Thais and ten westerners brings with it a problem unique to India ... the problem of what the North American Ladies call P-stops, the English andAustralian Ladies call 'comfort stops' and the Thai Ladies call "Picking the Flowers". Crouching in legume fields or behind trees could be a condition for many intersting mindstates - not just dosa (irritation) at the tooting of passing truck drivers, or the interest of the young boy lying on top of a water buffalo - nor wondering what I would do if four busloads of foreigners pulled up in MY front paddock and made similar donations ... but, what to do? There are no Rest Rooms in India. However, it was Beyond the Pale for that "gentleman" to turn his motorcycle highbeam headlight on a row of ladies conscientously "picking the flowers" - people DO scream differently in different languages! To kneel at the Bodhi Tree and pay respects and to perform Wien Tien after dark (circumbulating clockwise with candle-lamps to the measure chant of the Refuges); to pay respects at the place of the ordination of the first Bhikkhunis; and at the place where the Wheel of Dhamma was set in motion, and the place of the Paribibbana was a humbling experience - I think I know what Piti is ... perhaps it was just Lobha. But I think I will never read the Suttas in quite the same way again - in my minds eye I will BE there. To climb Vultures's Peak and see the place where the Blessed One's Kuti was with that of the faithful Ananda close by, is an experience never to be forgotten. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37852 From: Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:15am Subject: The World of Concept - A Chinese Quote Hi, all - The following isn't Theravadin, but I like it, and so I'm passing it on. From the Theravadin Abhidhamma perspective, one can understand this as indicating the role that conceptualization (i.e., story making) plays in the construction of our world of convention. Yogacara [or vijnanavada], the psychologist-phenomenalist school of Mahayana, actually would have pretty much the same perspective. That school, started by the brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu, tends to speak of conceptual "projection" instead of "pa~n~natti", but the sense is the same. Vasubandhu was a Sarvastivadin Abhidharmist before becoming a Mahayanist. [The substantialist-idealist approach expressed in some of Mahayana Sutras is a perversion of Vasubandhu's vijnanavada, in the opinion of some, including me.] With metta, Howard _______________________ A monk asked, “The mountains, the rivers, and the great earth-from where did all of these things come forth?â€? Tiantai said, “From where did this question come forth?â€? -Zen’s Chinese HeritageCopyright Wisdom Publications 2001. Reprinted from "Daily Wisdom: 365 Buddhist Inspirations," edited by Josh Bartok, with permission of Wisdom Publications, 199 Elm St., Somerville MA 02144 U.S.A, www.wisdompubs.org. -------------------------- /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37853 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 098 ) Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply on saddha. I'll have to think about it some more and try to see how saddha is different from ditthi. However, I have a question about dosa and lobha. I don't see how like and dislike are akusala. I would think it is the volition (cetana) that wants to do something about like and dislike that is akusala. Like and dislike by themselves seem kammicly neutral. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I stick to Pali words. Like and dislike are just general description. Even The Buddha would like and dislike. He would dislike his disciples doing akusala and He would like his disciples doing kusala, developing jhana and magga, phala etc etc. Like may be lobha, chanda, piti, somassa-vedana etc. Dislike may be dosa, panna, upekkha-vedana, domanassa-vedana, cetana, adhimokkha etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Like isn't necessarily want and dislike isn't necessarily hatred or intention to harm. Is avoiding unpleasant feeling akusala? How does abhidhamma explain this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Like isn't necessarily want. And no, dislike isn't necessarily hatres or intention to harm. No, avoiding unpleasant feeling does not necessarily akusala. The Buddha had back-ache. When he preached Dhamma to bhikkhus in the late evening He would transfer His duties to venerable Sariputta to continue to preach while He took a rest to avoid back-ache or back pain. Venerable Moggallana avoided those evil men for three time. This avoidance is not akusala. I have explained above. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 37854 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: Sariputta's Answer Hey Andrew, > Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or > inferiority conceit (as it is called in Nyanatiloka's dictionary)? The three views I am superior, I am inferior and I am equal all are founded on the conceit 'I am'. It is said that this is the last fetter to go before Arahantship. PEACE E 37855 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 099 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the kingdom of dosa or hatred or aversion, there are 4 cetasikas or 4 mental factors. They all are dosa related and they can be assumed as dosa-led cetasikas or dosa-rooted cetasikas. In this kingdom, the king is dosa cetasika. He has three queens unlike the king lobha. Again, the king dosa never sits with 2 queens or all 3 queens on the throne. When the king dosa is doing meeting with ministers for the state affair of the conntry, he will sit alone on the throne. But at other time he may sit with one of his three queens. These three queens of the king dosa are 1. issa or jealousy, 2. macchariya or stinginess, and 3. kukkucca or worry. These three cetasikas never arise together in a single citta even though it is possible one after another. Like dosa cetasika, these three cetasikas of issa or jealousy, macchariya or stinginess, and kukkucca or worry are all destructive ministers for the great king citta. They all will advise destructive things to the great king citta. Issa or jealousy is a cetasika. But it never arises alone. It arises with a citta. But issa itself is not a citta. Its function is not to know the object. It would advise the king citta to be jealous or envy on others. Because of this advice, the citta becomes harsh as dosa also accompany them and envy on the object. Jealousy is a kind of cetasika that does not very frequently arise. Even though akusala cittas frequently arise, issa or jealousy does not arise as frequent as that of dosa cetasika. But whenever issa cetasika arises, there always arises dosa cetasika. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37856 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Thadingyut (October 28th) fruitsandcream wrote: Thadingyut, the Month of the Light Festival The seventh month of Myanmar lunar calendar is called Thadingyut, which means the end of Buddhist Lent. It coincides with October. The period of Myanmar Buddhist Lent, which covers the peak of the rainy season, of July, August and September, comes to an end in October. Buddhist monks who had taken the "Wa" vow in Waso, in (July) (that they will stay in the monastery during the whole rainy season) in the are now free from that vow, as the Lent term is over in the month of Thadingyut. The monks are now free to go about and stay out overnight. Thadingyut is a transition period between the rainy season and cold season (winter). Though the monsoon has receded or is receding, remnants of rain clouds still hover in the sky and sometimes with the help of an unexpected storm, heavy showers come down to cause some unusual flooding. This is a time when crops especially paddy which the farmers have so laboriously planted and tended the whole rainy period are growing upright and their ears turning heavenward. The countryside is just a green carpet with white paddy birds flying about, looking for fish in the field water. · Tula (Libra) is the astrological name of Thadingyut and its zodiacal sign is a man holding the balance. In the night firmament the asterism "Asawani" and the moon rival in radiance. In this month five different species of water lily or lotus, bloom profusely in natural ponds and lakes. They are the white lotus (Nymphaea alba) the red lotus (Nymphaea Rubra), the blue lotus (Nymphaea Stellata), the Padoma lotus (Nelumbium speciosum) and Poun Najei Kya (Ixora Arborea). Therefore lotus is traditionally regarded as the flower of this month. The Lotus, especially the white and padoma type, is a sacred flower for the Buddhists. It is the symbol of purity as the lotus flower, which is perfect in beauty, fragrance and purity stems out of the muddy water. · The archaic name for this month was "than-tu- la". Early lithic inscriptions of Bagan used the name "than tu-la" for this month. Scholars give two different interpretations of this name. One is based upon the season. It says that the word "than" is derived from the Pali word "wa-than" which means rainy season. Tula (Libra) is the astrological name of this month. So "than tu-la" means the month "Tula" which belongs to the rainy season. The other is based upon the staple crop – paddy. According to it "than" means paddy crop. `Tu' means erect or upright and `la' means the month. So "than tu-la" means the month during which the paddy plants grow upright. The earliest use of the name "Thadingyut" for this month was found in the stone inscription of Bagan dated Sakarit year 574 (Myanmar Era) (A.D. 1212) known as Tuyin Taung Saw Rahan Thein Inscription. But the spelling was different and its pronunciation was "than-tin-chut" meaning "Lent is off". · The traditional festival annually held in this month is religious in origin, character and significance. In the evening of the Full moon day of Waso in the Muha Sakarit year 109 the Lord Gautama Buddha performed the great miracle at Savatthi. The performance took place near the white mango tree in the royal park of King Kosala. The miracle was in the form of emission of water and fire in pairs from the Buddha's eyes, ears, nostrils and mouth. It was performed to subdue the sectarian opponents. After the performance the Lord Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa the Celestial Kingdom where his mother Maha Maya became Santussita deva. The Lord Buddha wished to return the debt of filial gratitude he owed to his mother by preaching to her his philosophy – Abhidhamma. So the Lord Buddha observed his seventh Lent in Tavatimsa. There, sitting on the brown emerald slab called "Pandukambala" which was the throne of Sakka the King of devas, under the shade of the Pinlei Kathit Tree or Coral Tree (Erythrina indica) the Lord Buddha expounded the seven sections of Abhidhamma to a gathering of devas and Brahmas including his mother Santussita deva. The preaching of the Abhidhamma throughout the Lent came to an end on the Full Moon day of Thadingyut. So this day was designated and celebrated by the Buddhists as "Abhidhamma Day". The Lord Buddha told Sakka deva that he would return to human world. Whereupon Sakka deva created three stairways – one of gold on the right side for the devas, one of silver on the left side for the Brahmas and one in the middle of rubies for the Lord Buddha to descend upon. Many deities accompanied the Lord Buddha. They held several celestial regalia. Panca Thinkha deva on the right played the "Veluva" harp in praise of the Lord Buddha. Matali deva on the left carried flowers and fragrance to honour the Lord Buddha. Suyama deva carried the yak tail fly whisk, Santussita deva held the ruby-studded gold fan and Sakka deva blew the "Vizayuttara" Conch Shell to celebrate the occasion. All deities dwelling in the whole of the Universe also gathered to pay homage to the Lord Buddha as best they could. The three stairways being illuminated by the lights radiated from the deities led to the gateway of the City of Sakassa on earth. When the Lord Buddha set foot upon the earth, the crowd that awaited at the city gate all paid obeisance to the Lord Buddha and a grand ceremony was held to welcome and honour him. · To commemorate this great event in the life of the Lord Buddha which took place on the Fullmoon day of Thidingyut the Myanmar people hold "Tawedeintha" (Tavatimsa) festival or "Myint Mo Festival" because Tavatimsa is said to be on the summit of Mt. Myint Mo (Mt-Meru). Fantastic replicas of Myint Mo are constructed artistically with the three stairways, and in the evening lights are lit on it. The event of the descent of the Lord Buddha accompanied by the deities is depicted with the statues, and devotees pay reverence to the image of the Buddha in a descending posture on the middle stairway. Offertories are made at shrines and pagodas and alms are given to the monks. Hymns are sung in praise of the Buddha and his teaching, the Dhamma. A reception is held where all comers are entertained with fruits, cakes and light refreshments. · The Thadingyut light festival was depicted in the mural paintings of the Pagodas and temples at old Bagan and other old capitals. One particular fresco, which vividly portrayed the Tawedeintha Festival of the time is found on the inner wall of Myinkaba Ku Byauk Kyi Temple at old Bagan. It is the scene of the descent of the Lord Buddha from Tavatimsa to the city of Sankassa. In other wall paintings are seen earthen oil lamps illuminating religious monuments. Earthen oil lamps called "si-mee gwet" are small circular flat cups of baked earth to contain some oil in which cotton wicks are soaked and lighted. Myanmar people still use them. · In the Inwa, Taungoo and Nyaung Yan periods of Myanmar history, the light festival came to be called "si-mee Myint Mo Pwe" (Festival of illuminating Mt. Meru with oil lamps). It was organized by the king. In the courtyard was constructed a lofty replica of Mt. Meru of bamboo and papier mache and artistically decorated, with three stairways coming down from its summit. The whole structure and the stairways were illuminated by oil lamps. The following is an excerpt from Loka Byuha Kyan (A Treatise on the court ceremonies and festivals compiled by Minister Uzana of the Inwa Period), which recounts the holding of "Si-mee Myint Mo Pwe" by the royal order. · "Beginning on the 8th waxing moon of Thadingyut the king's officers constructed replicas of Mt. Myint Mo in the foreground of Hluttaw (the Building of the King's Privy Council). The Royal Store issued oil lamps on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th waning moon nights of Thadingyut. Soldiers built four big tents on the left side of the Hluttaw's foreground and five big tents on the right side in which entertainments took place". · "On the 14th Waxing moon, 1st and 3rd waning moon nights, Shwezigon (Inwa), Kutaw Thit, Man Aung Yatana, Shwe Yin Ye, Yan Aung Myin, Maha Myat Muni, Tada U Mingala Zedi, Panya Shwezigon, Tuywin Che Phaya, Sagaing Chan Tha Gyi, Shin Hpyu Shin Hla, Ponnya Zedi, Patamya Zedi, Yaza Mani Cula pagodas were illuminated. The King's men and equestrian soldiers were given for each pagoda 100 oil lamps, 100 cotton wickers and 3 viss of oil to illuminate." · Later Myanmar kings also held Thadingyut light festival annually. Even though his kingdom was beset with political disasters, King Thibaw (A.D. 1878-85) the last Myanmar king did not neglect his duty of holding monthly festivals according to the court traditions. Konbaung Set Maha Yaza Wun Taw Gyi (The Great Royal Chronicle of Konbaung Dynasty) Vol. 3 mentions the following account of the light festival held by King Thibaw in A.D. 1883: · "In accordance with the tradition of holding `Si-mee Myint Mo' festival and royal ceremony in the month of Thadingyut, preparations were made, such as the construction of East Myint Mo and puppet stage north of Hluttaw, West Myint Mo and puppet stage in front of the Western Samok Saung Taw, four Tazaung Buildings and puppet stage at four Royal Yards, temporary palace on the right side of Myay Nan-taw and East Maze, Myint Mo and mazes on both sides of Western Samok Saung Taw; a mechanically operated Parsee Theatre in front of the Southern Royal Theatre Hall, a puppet stage on wheels in front of it; puppet stages at 16 Pagodas, one white elephant fully caparisoned, four gold elephant dummies and one red elephant dummy to be made by the officers in charge of the workshops. Officers in charge of royal elephant stables were to keep in readiness the white and the red elephants and their attendants officers in charge of royal steeds were to keep in readiness state coaches; officers in charge of royal flotilla were to keep in readiness royal rafts, boats, barges, ships and sampans. Officers in charge of royal granary were to keep themselves in readiness for distributing paddy ration to the monasteries. Chinese, Indian, Siamese and Linzin (Laotian) Officers in charge of illumination set up rows of lights of different coloured glass lanterns with candles along the road between the Palace and Maha Muni Temple. Foreign-made festoons and paper streamers, and home-made floral umbrellas, floral flags, and garlands were issued from the Royal Store to decorate the Pagodas, Temples, Shrines and the streets. Officers in charge of Royal Treasury issued money for all expenses of advance preparations. From the 9th to the 14th waxing moon, puppet shows were staged nightly at four Royal Yards." · "From the 1st to the 3rd waning moon altogether on three successive nights East Myint Mo, West Myint Mo, East Maze and West Maze were illuminated. In the evening till 4 p.m. Siamese drama, music and dance, Myanmar drama, music and dance were performed. Somersault, the sport of climbing a greased pole, acrobatic stunts, tightrope walking, Chinese dragon dance and music were displayed and performed. From 4 p.m. to 2 a.m. puppet shows were staged every night." · "All government departments staged their respective theatrical performances every night at 16 Pagodas. At 16 places of the Palace City music was played. Over 50 drums of different sizes and kinds and over 500 dancers, singers and instrumentalists were employed to perform by turns on the streets. They were awarded each a pusoe, a scarf, a jacket and a nightly fee of Kyats 2/- in silver. They strolled and performed their talent on the streets between the Palace and the Pagodas and at the stations they stopped to report for duty. Officers in charge of royal tea, betel and drinking water, umbrella and sword were assigned to the supervision of illuminating the streets between the Palace and Hluttaw." · "Their Majesties made rounds at the East and West mazes. At the first marquee were displayed variety of fruits, at the second, the third and the fourth marquees were displayed cakes, jams, sweets and creams of various kinds. At the Myint Mo marquee cigars with crackers hidden inside, cheroots, pickled tea and betel leaves and ruts were displayed." · "At the left Myint Mo and Maze in the first marquee, tins of biscuits and bottles of perfume were displayed. In the second marquee were displayed rolls of Linen, woolen cloth, velvet and felt of multi colours. In the third marquee were displayed paper boxes of identical size, design and colour each containing different materials such as cotton scarves, and silk scarves in some, velvet in others, cotton materials in some, silk and embroidered materials in others and so on. At the fourth marquee were displayed similar boxes containing different men's wears and women's wears of silk, cotton, foreign made and home made, fine quality and poor quality – all mixed up. At the fifth marquee were sacks of 1000 copper coins, all put into boxes of identical size and appearance. At all marquees, sweets and refreshments were served to the guests." · "Their Majesties visited every marquee and every reception center. The courtiers and their attendants were invited to take away anything and any amount of those displayed in the marquees. But they must carry them only in one round and carry themselves. Their Majesties were amused to observe the human greed and vanity when every one tried to take away as much as possible from every marquee but was unable to carry the load. Some fell down under the weight. Since it was forbidden to abandon the parcels on the way, many laboured hard to carry them on the head, shoulders and in the hands. When the parcels were opened in the presence of Their Majesties, it was exciting and amusing to find that Ministers and men attendants received female clothing and feminine paraphernalia, whereas dames and ladies landed on heaps of men's wears. But some were lucky to get the useful lots. Their Majesties were much amused and happy…" · Outside the capital and in the countryside the light festival of Thadingyut takes on the local character. In town and villages along the rivers illuminations are floated on the water. When darkness falls, people row out to the middle of the stream and light up the little oil lamps, placed them on floats made of banana stems, bamboos or reeds and the illuminated floats are let adrift in the water. The scene is spectacular. The rising full moon sending out its silvery rays through the foliage of swaying palm, coconut, banana and mango trees creating artistic black and white designs on the water surface while the flickering flames of oil lamps on the floats cast shimmering reflections in the ripples. In places like Shan State, fire balloons are let loose, or in the Pa.O villages locally made fire rockets are shot into the sky. The idea is to pay homage to the Sulamani Pagoda in the Celestial Kingdom in which are believed to have been enshrined the hair of Prince Siddattha and the sacred tooth relic of the Lord Gotama Buddha. · Two serious religious functions of Thadingyut are Pawa rana and Puja. The former is the function performed by the monks. It is held at the end of the Buddhist Lent where a monk has to ask other monks to reprimand him for any sin he may have committed. This function takes place every year on the full moon day of Thidingyut in the ordination hall of the monastery precincts. Before the function takes place, junior monks sweep the floor, clean the place, and fill the pots with drinking water. They also prepare seats for the monks to take. Then the monks led by the most senior monk assemble to perform the Pawa rana function. · The origin of Pawa rana dates back to the lifetime of the Lord Buddha. While the Lord Buddha was residing in Jetavana Vihara at Savatthi, some monks observed lent at a village in Kosala. These monks believed that unity and happiness among them could be achieved by not talking to one another because talking could cause argument and dispute. So they kept mum through out the lent period. When the Lent was over they visited the Lord Buddha and paid homage to him. The Lord Buddha greeted them by asking after their health, happiness and unity during Lent. The monks explained how they kept mum and silent so as to gain unity and happiness. The Lord Buddha objected to their method, saying that keeping mum was like a deaf mute and that, that kind of behaviour was disrespecful to the donors and supporters of Sangha. It is sinful for a monk to behave in such a manner. The best way to achieve unity and happiness among monks is by means of Pawa rana – by inviting monks to assemble and letting each monk by turn ask other monks to point out if he has been seen, heard or suspected of committing any sin and if so, letting other monks reprimand the sinful monk. By so doing the sinful monk will become repentant and so be pardoned and the monks will live in harmony, unity and happiness. · The latter function i.e. Puja is performed by laymen `Puja' means worship or making devotional offering. According to Buddhism there are five infinite debts of gratitude – the gratitude owed to the Buddha, the gratitude owed to the his teachings i.e. the Dhamma, the gratitude owed to the Sangha (the assembly of monks) the gratitude owed to the parents and the gratitude owed to the teachers. It is a religious obligation to worship and make devotional offerings to them. In addition those who are senior in age, rank, and position and those who have helped you while you are in difficulty should be respected, worshipped and given due puja. The Full moon Day of Thadingyut is an auspicious occasion for Myanmar Buddhists to visit the aged, the seniors, the teachers and old friends to pay them reverence and give them devotional gifts. In return they receive blessings and loving kindness from them. To the minors some pocket money may he given by the aged for their enjoyment at the light festival of Thadingyut. The procedure of puja is simple. The performer reverently sits in front of the aged or superiors and clasps the two hands and palms together in the form of a lotus bud and bows three times, asking forgiveness for any offense he or she may have committed physically, verbally or mentally. The aged or the superiors give him or her pardon, some words of advice on good behaviour, good conduct, good deed, and good way of living as expounded in the Mangala Sutta or the Discourse on the Way to Auspiciousness preached by the Lord Buddha. · The Festival of Lights in the month of Thadingyut is an occasion for rejoicing and merry-making but in essence it is an auspicious occasion for spiritual delight and merit making. 37857 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:55pm Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 03 ) III. LEAVING PAST , TREATING STARTS & HEALING DHAMMA Events are arising and falling away all the time even though they persist for a limited time. Even non-events also involve in events. They cause their related events to arise and fall away when they themselves do not arise and do not fall away. We are centre of ourselves even though there is no ourselves. Please just watch yourselves through six separate doors. From the centre, you all can go wherever you like or can go to whatever events attract you. Currently right now, there are events in front of you. In front means not just for spatial events but includes temporal that is dead right present. As soon as you attend these events, they all fall away. Isn't that dreadful? Watch them now. As you watch or as you attend them you will definitely see that they arise and fall away. All these events immediately become the past. Even though learning is centered at experience which is the past, we all should leave the past and attend the present. How do we attend the present? This is hard to do. First we all should stop doing unnecessary things which do not help us. This saves our time which is very very precious and we should not lose our precious time. First we need to have a cool mind. For this is only possible when we release all our tensions and stresses. Do not take any care in minor things and even majors things should have been delegated to others if possible. Through out the day, we are changing all the time. What we have been changing is that our body postures or positions. These changes take a lot of energy and time. At least we are distracted to that body part. It is the best that we choose the most suitable position or the longest possible position that we can stay. After making sure that we are in a good position or posture, then there will be less disturbance to see events. Now we have left the past. This is what we should do. Otherwise, the past will overwhelm us and cause re-thinking of events and if they are bad things then this sort of thinking will definitely create new commitments and new formations. Not to arise such thing, we have to produce an effort. Now we have started the treatment. Treatment of what? Treatment of stress or sufferings. By which means? By attending the present and present events and nothing outside of the present events. The mind had left many footprints. These footprints are always there in our past and we may only be able to see these footprints with the aid of special binoculars which is one of the power of the mind which can be achieved if a specific training is attended. Leave all these footprints in the past as they are. What we need to do right now is that we all must attend the present events. This present also includes non-events which do not have any past or present or future. Again these present events all left behind all the time. If this is the case, what we should do right now. That is not very easy. But please try to grasp the footprints as early as possible as soon as the mind has stepped. We are leaving the past and we will not pay any attention to the past events. Treatment of stress and tensions has been started. This is healing Dhamma. Just try to trace the track of the mind. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37858 From: Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sariputta's Answer Andrew: "Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority conceit (as it is called in Nyanatiloka's dictionary)?" Hi Andrew, Besides being the favorite past-time of those who suffer from depression, self contempt is perhaps the most basic of the conceits. "Self" as concept denotes permanence and wholeness. This is continuously being undermined by the impermanence and incompleteness (anatta) of experience (reality). "Self" continuously fails to be itself in that experience fails to manifest as the permanence and wholeness of concept. Self contempt is almost inevitable. The solution: concept isn't real. Larry 37859 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:46pm Subject: Phil: intelligent act of dana Dear Phil and all, I'm not sure whether this quote sheds light on any of the recent topics but from a renowned meditation master who often talks about anicca, dukkha and anatta I found this very helpful. Mahasi Sayadaw taught: "Some people say that an intelligent act of dana must involve the contemplation of the anicca, dukkha and anatta of the donor, the recipient and the offering. This view is based on Atthasalini (a commentary on Abhidhammapitaka) which mentions the contemplation on the impermanence of everything after giving alms. But the reference is to contemplation after the act of dana, not before or while doing it. Moreover, the object is not to make the act intelligent but to create wholesome kamma in vipassana practice. If by intelligent dana is meant only the dana that pre-supposes such contemplation, all the other dana of non-Buddhists would have to be dubbed unintelligent acts and it is of course absurd to do so. The accounts of alms-giving by bodhisattas make no mention of contemplation nor did the Buddha insist on it as a pre-requisite to an act of dana. The scriptures say only that the kammic potential of dana depends on the spiritual level of the recipient and this is the only teaching that we should consider in alms-giving. If the donor and the recipient were to be regarded as mere nama-rupa subject to anicca, etc., they would be on equal footing. The act of dana would then lack inspiration and much kammic potential. In fact the object of alms-giving is not vipassana contemplation but the benefits accruing to the donor. So the Buddha points out the would-be recipients who can make dana immensely beneficial and the importance of right reflection (belief in kamma)." http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Mahasi/Dependent/Ignorance/ignorance.html 37860 From: dighanakha Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hello Antony. Thanks for posting this; it's very apposite. In fact I had this very quote in mind when replying to Ken H. on the subject of the Kula Sutta, but I couldn't recall which of Mahasi Sayadaw's books it was from. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker > In fact the object of alms-giving is not vipassana > contemplation but the benefits accruing to the donor. So > the Buddha points out the would-be recipients who can > make dana immensely beneficial and the importance of > right reflection (belief in kamma)." 37861 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:40pm Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hi Anthony and DN, I'm not sure I understood this article, but, from DN's response, I presume it is about a non-profound teaching apparently given by the Buddha. In other words, it is being asserted that some of the Dhamma is about conventional, commonplace reality. Do you accept that there are only paramattha dhammas? It is not an easy fact to grasp, but we can all grasp it to some extent. To that same extent, we lose faith in the idea of a conventional, commonplace reality. We know there is no such thing: there are only dhammas. Having correctly heard the Buddha's teaching, we cannot believe that dana, sila or home economics has a reality outside the loka (the namas and rupas of the present moment). Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > > Hello Antony. > > Thanks for posting this; it's very apposite. In fact I had this very quote in mind when > replying to Ken H. on the subject of the Kula Sutta, but I couldn't recall which of > Mahasi Sayadaw's books it was from. > > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker > > > > In fact the object of alms-giving is not vipassana > > contemplation but the benefits accruing to the donor. So > > the Buddha points out the would-be recipients who can > > make dana immensely beneficial and the importance of > > right reflection (belief in kamma)." 37862 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:46pm Subject: Re: "Picking the Flowers" and compassion --- Thanks Christine, A very real description! robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > India reduces one to writing in cliches - fascination, overwhelming, > repulsive, heartbreaking, enthralling - > Those with this particular pilgrimage group who had been to India > thirty years or so ago find a few of the Holy Places changed 37863 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hello DN, Antony, Ken H. and all, Before I go on DN, know that I am very happy to see you here on DSG and actively participating. Some of what you have said has been good reminders for me. But my basic position hasn't changed, and like Ken I believe for example, that whatever was taught by the Buddha, satipatthana is implied. You wrote to Antony: ------------------------------------------------ > Thanks for posting this; it's very apposite. In fact I had this very quote in mind when > replying to Ken H. on the subject of the Kula Sutta, but I couldn't recall which of > Mahasi Sayadaw's books it was from. > > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker > > > > In fact the object of alms-giving is not vipassana > > contemplation but the benefits accruing to the donor. So > > the Buddha points out the would-be recipients who can > > make dana immensely beneficial and the importance of > > right reflection (belief in kamma)." ---------------------------------------------- I appreciate the Venerable's point. There is however ultimately no control over what will be the object of the citta at any given moment, and all arises and falls away in an instant. The Buddha encouraged all kinds of kusala, be it dana, sila or samatha bhavana, and he would never say "Leave this and develop just satipatthana". But the Buddha taught "Dhamma" and this implies the characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The last point is what differentiates his teachings from all other teachings. There is no control over what is considered and how much understanding there is when a moment of `dana' arises. And surely dana is not in the act, but is the quality of the citta. The particular circumstance and the accumulations will condition the intensity of kusala involved and this may be interspersed with other kusala cittas, (metta, karuna for example) and/or with akusala (moha, lobha or even machariya). The former is surely more desirable than the latter; however, don't you think that satipatthana would be the ideal? The Buddha when he was the Bodhisatta did not know about satipatthana and anatta. So whatever other kusala he developed then *was* the most ideal and best. But it is different after he became the Buddha. Now the teachings of Conditionality and Anatta became *The Teachings*. With this new understanding, don't you think that he would want his audience to understand this? It may be that some of what he said dealt directly with the question of anatta and conditionality and the practice of satipatthana, while others were with other levels of kusala. But I believe that when it was of this latter kind, it implied that the listener already understood to some extent the basic practice and the fact about conditionality and anatta. I don't believe that the Buddha would overlook the possibility that his listener, for example in the case of Kula, might go away with a stronger belief in `self' and/or thinking that the Buddha encouraged worldly success. Of course I am generalizing; it is so much easier to do so ;-), but I do believe that the Dhamma is deep all the way through. Metta, Sukin. Ps: I just saw that Ken has responded, but will quickly send this off before reading that, else I might end up discarding this one as I've done with others. :-) 37864 From: Ken O Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: intelligent act of dana Hi Andrew I think I have discussed with Dan why those people who behave in correct manner is not the right manner according to Buddhism because without a Buddha there is no road to salvation, an end to samasara. A kusala behaviour without panna would only result in good rebirth but still rebirth regardless. Hence an intelligent act is those act that is rooted in panna. Furthermore, I have not read the scripture in full because I have not see the quote it is from, but I believe the scripture does not say that this is an unintelligent act. That I believe is Mahasi Sayadawi personal inference. I have not read in the Abhidhamma books critising behaviour that is kusala, the most is comparing acts with kusala with and without panna. Furthermore, Mahasi Sayadawi does not consider fermentations when he talks about giving alms. Yes naturally we gained good kamma results from giving alms but the act of giving alms, what is there. Some people give for the sake of good kamma results, some give from the urge of others, while some really good people give unprompted due to past behaviours effect but if they do not reflect on these anatta and anicca behaviour, panna will not growth. In fact giving for the sake of good kamma results is a false sense of self, because it still lead to rebirth not cessation of rebirth. But the act to comtemplate after giving alms is an vipassana act to get rid our fermentations, is an act leading to cessation of births. That is the goal of Buddhism. Personally I think such statements are not encouraging at all especially one from a learn person because this show a lack of understanding of Buddha dhamma. Ken O 37865 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Anthony and DN, > > I'm not sure I understood this article, but, from DN's response, I > presume it is about a non-profound teaching apparently given by the > Buddha. In other words, it is being asserted that some of the Dhamma > is about conventional, commonplace reality. > > Do you accept that there are only paramattha dhammas? It is not an > easy fact to grasp, but we can all grasp it to some extent. To that > same extent, we lose faith in the idea of a conventional, > commonplace reality. We know there is no such thing: there are only > dhammas. Having correctly heard the Buddha's teaching, we cannot > believe that dana, sila or home economics has a reality outside the > loka (the namas and rupas of the present moment). > > Kind regards, > Ken H Friend Ken H., I believe that you are suffering from a distorted view. It is not true that there are "only dhammas" and that nothing else matters. I came across a relevant chapter in the Autobiography of Ajahn Tate that possibly points to the cause for such a view. Interestingly enough, it is meditation without the proper amount of wisdom (probably the birth chamber of the Abhidhamma as well?): 20.1 A Distorted View Arises I exerted myself in meditation to the extreme limit of my ability, until a misguided and distorted view (Vipallaasa) arose: 'There is no Lord Buddha, no Sangha. There is only the Dhamma. This is because the Lord Buddha or, in other words, the 'Prince Siddhatthakumaara' only became the Lord Buddha through knowing the Dhamma. Even the Lord Buddha himself was only ruupa-dhamma and naama- dhamma.[132] The Sangha is the same, for they all, whether enlightened noble disciples or unenlightened ordinary disciples, are sustained by Dhamma. Their physical form is but ruupa-dhamma and naama-dhamma'. This was my rock certain opinion. I was absolutely convinced it was true. But I did review what the authorized version had to say about it and found, well, that they didn't agree with my opinions. I was unable to settle these two conflicting views and they continually disputed with each other over many days. It was certainly a good thing that I was unwilling to throw out the conventional wisdom, for if I had, the results would have created quite a song and dance.[133] As it happened, Ven. Ajahn Sahn sent someone to invite me to come down to receive some offerings and gifts from the lay people. I was in two minds whether or not I should go. However, I then remembered the state of my lower robe. I had already been using it for three years and it might not last through the next Rains Retreat, so I decided to go. Accepting his invitation, I went to renew my robes so that my requisites would be complete and I could then return. On going down they offered me all the things I required and that distorted view seemed completely to disappear of itself." Metta, James 37866 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:11am Subject: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 10/28/04 11:26:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard and James > > > > I hope this sutta quotes help in your dicussion > > > > > > Also SN ii.95 > > “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, > > and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so > > bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by > > day as by night, one arises when another perishes.â€? > > > > > > Ken O > > > ========================== > Thank you. Yes, I think this is perfect! > > With metta, > Howard Friend Ken O and Howard, Yes, thank you for the sutta quote, Ken. It does seem to answer the question and there aren't really any gaps in consciousness. I am quite intereted in that point of when one citta perishes the other arises...there is something there that interests me. Can't explain why. Anyway, thanks again. Metta, James 37867 From: plnao Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: intelligent act of dana HI Antony, and all Thanks for this, Antony. As I've posted here in the past, I seem to be tied up in knots about dana, because I can't help but resent the way dana is handled here in Japan. There is so much money involved, and very open interest in gaining posthumous benefits for the donor. (Or other more mundane benefits, such as passing school entrance exams) > "Some people say that an intelligent act of dana must > involve the contemplation of the anicca, dukkha and > anatta of the donor, the recipient and the offering. > This view is based on Atthasalini (a commentary on > Abhidhammapitaka) which mentions the contemplation on > the impermanence of everything after giving alms. Yes, I must admit this is what I would think Abhidhamma rules OK for me now, though of course I'm just a neophyte. >But > the reference is to contemplation after the act of dana, > not before or while doing it. Moreover, the object is > not to make the act intelligent but to create wholesome > kamma in vipassana practice. If by intelligent dana is > meant only the dana that pre-supposes such > contemplation, all the other dana of non-Buddhists would > have to be dubbed unintelligent acts and it is of course > absurd to do so. I would very definitely tend to dub some acts of dana as being moha-lobha rooted, with attachment to the benefits on the part of the donor, and ignorance (in the non-derogatory sense of the word) of the three characteristics of conditioned whaddeveryacallits. (I like "dhammas" But of course we can't know the cittas of other people, so it would be ignorant on my part to do so. Yet I do. I have so many little peeves and resentments. My defilements are very crude. > The accounts of alms-giving by bodhisattas make no > mention of contemplation nor did the Buddha insist on it > as a pre-requisite to an act of dana. The scriptures say > only that the kammic potential of dana depends on the > spiritual level of the recipient and this is the only > teaching that we should consider in alms-giving. I know this is the teaching of the Buddha in the Suttanta, so I respect it. There are many teachings in the Suttanta that I respect by virtue of their being in suttas, but still am unable to respond to. For me, a valuable teaching leads us closer to understanding that most distinctive and most liberating feature of the Buddha's teaching - anatta. Dana based on a person's social status (and that is what we're talking about when we talk about monks in Japan) just doesn't make sense to me personally in the light of anatta. I stay open to the teaching, but still struggle to really relate it to my practice. Please understand that this is because of having lived in Japan for 8 years and knowing what I do about the materialism of a significant number of "monks" here. (Married, with children, having inherited the tax-free fortunes they spend so conspicuously on Rolexes and Jaguars.) > If the donor and the recipient were to be regarded as mere > nama-rupa subject to anicca, etc., they would be on > equal footing. The act of dana would then lack > inspiration and much kammic potential. Since we can't know the other's citta, the above is true. So I would favour offering dana in an egalitarian way. The kamma could perhaps depend on the purity of the citta at the time of giving? The lack of self-interest, of attachment to the benefit? Who knows. It is best not to think about the kamma of what we are doing, in my opinion. As it happens, just now on the way home in the train I was reading a post that Nina wrote some time ago to me in response to my question about this issue: Nina: The giver: he shold not cling to an idea of gaining more merit for himself when he gives to a more worthy person. The Buddha explained that the kusala kamma is greater, but we should not cling and five whenever there is an opportunity and when it is fitting." (end quote) So yes, the kamma is greater, but we shouldn't consider it. If we do consider the kamma of what we do, how can it not be based in wrong view of self that wants to benefit, self that wants to have good kamma so that self can benfit? That's a rhetorical question. I am new to Dhamma, so am just beginning to figure things out. It's fun! > In fact the object of alms-giving is not vipassana > contemplation but the benefits accruing to the donor. Another nice quotation from K Sujin - "one cannot develop panna if one doesn't see the value of dana and sila." I always appreciate your presence on these boards, Antony. You speak so often of dana and sila when most of us tend to become panna junkies. BTW, for those who don't know, Antony hosts a Yahoo group devoted to Dana. Perhaps you'd like to provide a link, Antony? I think the name of the group is simply "Dana" if folks would like to check it out. Metta, Phil 37868 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:27am Subject: Giving in the Pali Canon Dear Group, Lily de Silva wrote: Function of Giving Giving is of prime importance in the Buddhist scheme of mental purification because it is the best weapon against greed (lobha), the first of the three unwholesome motivational roots (akusalamula). Greed is wrapped up with egoism and selfishness, since we hold our personalities and our possessions as "I" and "mine". Giving helps make egoism thaw: it is the antidote to cure the illness of egoism and greed. "Overcome the taint of greed and practice giving," exhorts the Devatasamyutta (S.i,18). The Dhammapada admonishes us to conquer miserliness with generosity (jine kadariyam danena, Dhp. 223). It is difficult to exercise this virtue of giving proportionate to the intensity of one's greed and selfishness. As such the Devatasamyutta equates giving to a battle (danan ca yuddhan ca samanam ahu, S.i,20). One has to fight the evil forces of greed before one can make up one's mind to give away something dear and useful to oneself. The Latukikopama Sutta illustrates how a man lacking in spiritual strength finds it hard to give up a thing he has been used to (M.i, 449). A small quail can come to death when it gets entangled even in a useless rotten creeper. Though weak, a rotten creeper is a great bond for the small bird. But even an iron chain is not too big a bond for a strong elephant. Similarly, a poor wretched man of weak character would find it difficult to part with his shabby meager belongings, while a strong-charactered king will even give up a kingdom once convinced of the dangers of greed. Miserliness is not the only hindrance to giving. Carelessness and ignorance of the working of kamma and survival after death are equally valid causes (macchera ca pamada ca evam danam na diyati, S.i,18). If one knows the moral advantages of giving, one will be vigilant to seize opportunities to practice this great virtue. Once the Buddha said that if people only knew the value of giving as he does, they would not take a single meal without sharing their food with others (It.p,18). (from "Giving in the Pali Canon" by Lily de Silva in "The Practice of Giving : Selected essays" edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Wheel Publication No. 367/369, Buddhist Publication Society, PO Box 61, Kandy Sri Lanka) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel367.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dana-giving/message/77 with metta / Antony. 37869 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 100 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have discussed about the small akusala king dosa or aversion in the previous post. Most of the time dosa or aversion arises alone without any of three queens. Here alone means 'out of 4 dosa-rooted cetasikas'. No cetasika can arise alone. People at least in their young age like teens live with a companion or a partner. They become a couple. Couples at least have some similarities sharing between them. In akusala cetasikas of dosa- rooted ones, there have some similarities among them. All dosa-rooted cetasikas when they arise in a citta, they all are led by dosa. As dosa or aversion or hatred is ugly, all these three queens of the king dosa are ugly. No one will think that issa or jealousy, macchariya or stinginess, and kukkucca or worries are beautiful. Another similarity is that all these three queens of the king dosa are destructive and they all are also destructive minister for the great king citta. Whenever they arise, they will not give good advise to the great king citta. They all will just advise the great king citta bad things. Again, among these three queens of the king dosa, issa or jealousy has been discussed in the previous post. Another queen is macchariya or stinginess. This cetasika or mental factor is also ugly like dosa and issa and it is also a destructive minister of the great king citta. Macchariya or stinginess is a mental factor that arises with dosa citta who also has a special quality called stinginess. Macchariya cetasika advises the king citta to be stingy. Macchariya keeps secret everything she possesses. And this queen of dosa king will not want anyone touch all her possessions. These possessions may be from a very very minor things to very very great things. But not all 'not wanting to give off' is stinginess. Minor things such as giving a small space, making a way for others, giving other small advice and suggestions, minor possessions etc etc are not allowed to others to take adventage on any part of these. Even when minor things may well cause macchariya or stinginess, great things definitely cause stinginess or macchariya. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37870 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Best Direction ... !!! Friends: Conscious & Clever Centre of Concentration: Ananda, a Bhikkhu attends to this Focus: This is Real, this is Supreme, namely: The Stilling of all mental Construction, The Calming of all Restless Activity, The Fading of all Concern & Anxiety, The Cooling of all Temptation & Urge, The Ending of all Longing & Craving, The Exhaustion of all Fuel of Being, Ceasing, Peace, Bliss, Freedom, Nibbana . Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha Anguttara Nikaya V 319 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 37871 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hello All. Here is a lengthier treatment of the same subject in Mahasi Sayadaw's lectures on the Bhaara Sutta. Particularly worthy of attention are his remarks at the end about the "semblance of vipassanaa." http://www.mahasi.org.mm/pdf/E04pdf.PDF PA~N~NATTA AND PARAMATTHA There are two methods of instruction in Buddha's teachings, namely, the paramattha desanaa and the pa~n~nattha desanaa, the former being concerned with abstract knowledge while the latter with ordinary or conventional knowledge appealing to perception by which objects are known by their names. When we discuss about anicca, impermanence, dukkha, property of primary substances, sacca, truth, satipa.t.thaana, establishment of mindfulness, and aayatana, sense-spheres, we are concerned with abstract subjects. When we talk about men, women, devas, brahmins, etc., we are concerned with everyday subjects that one mentions by name. There are people who can see the light of the dhamma by pa~n~natta means of instruction as well as those who get enlightened by paramattha means. A professor who knows many languages explains things to his English Pupils in English, Indian pupils in Hindi and Myanmar pupils in Myanmar. Buddha taught in much the same way employing either of the two methods I have mentioned. There are eight reasons why Buddha used names in common usage and taught in the pa~n~natta way, namely, (1) to explain hiri, shame, and ottappa, fear, which act as deterrents to sin, (2) to show that individuals have only kamma as their belonging, (3) to describe the outstanding deeds of individuals. (4) to explain the uninterrupted and irredeemable nature of the worst type of kamma, (5) to encourage the exercise of Brahmavihaara, perfect goodwill towards all beings, (6) to reveal the nature of pubbenivaasana ~naa.na, supernormal faculty of remembering the past lives of oneself and others, (7) to explain dakkhi.navisuddhi purity of gifts and (8) to abide by current speech. (1) When we say that the khandhas are ashamed or frightened, the meaning of the term may not be understood; but when we say that the girl got ashamed or frightened, everyone will understand what the statement means. Therefore when Buddha wanted to emphasise the development of the sense of shame of fear as deterrents to sinning, he used common parlance. (2) When we say the khandhas have only their kamma as their possession, the meaning of the statement may be ambiguous. But when we say that individuals commit good or evil deeds which result in good or evil kammas, and that therefore, these kammas are their own possession, the individual kamma can be understood. When kamma is to be expounded Buddha used names in current speech. (3) When we say that khandhas build houses or monasteries, the meaning will not be clear. So when we speak of Anaathapi.n.dika we say that he built the Jetavana Monastery, mentioning him by name. Then the meaning will be clearly understood. Hence the use of individual names. (4) When we say that the khandhas kill their parents, no one will be able to understand what it means. But everybody will understand us when we say that the son killed his mother or that King Ajaatasattu killed his father, Bimbisaara. Evil kammas at once seize the matricides and patricides the moment they die. And this work of karma is said to be irredeemable in nature as the worst type of evil kamma known as anantariya and it allows no pause for rest. In an explanation of this kind, Buddha used common language. Ajaatasattu was seized by the anantariya kamma because he killed his father. So although he had had the opportunity to hear Buddha preach, he failed to get illumined in the dhamma. Killing his father acted as an impediment to the realisation of the Path, and so he is regarded as a maggantaraaya, danger to the Path. After his death he went straight for the nether world to suffer in Lohakumbhi hell, losing the opportunity to be raised to heaven. Therefore, he is also regarded as saggantaraaya, danger to the world of devas. (5) When we say that khandhas send their good wishes to other khandhas for their long life and happiness one may not understand what it means. So we say monks and laymen wish other monks and laymen happiness and liberation from human miseries, Buddha preached his disciples about the practice of Brahmaacariya, exercise of the qualities of loving kindness, compassion, goodwill and equanimity. Establishment in this exercise is known as Brahmavihaara. When Buddha wanted to expound this doctrine he used the pa~n~natta desanaa. Here, those who do not know Buddha's methodology in teaching the dhamma conceived that paramatta desanaa is better and therefore, send their good wishes not to the individual, but to the khandhas. It must be remembered that in practising Brahmacariya, not only the generic term, all beings or sabbe sattaa, is used but also the specific term, all men or sabbe purisaa, all women or sabbe itthiyo, etc., is used. In sending love and kind regards to others one has to direct his mind or attention to recipients as individuals, and not to their mind and matter. Mind and matter being abstraction, they would present themselves like bricks and stones; and if that be so, what boots it to send one's love and regards to inanimate objects? It is, therefore, commonplace that when you are practising Brahmacariya, you must recognise the individuality of those on whom your mind dwells. (6) If we say that out khandhas can remember their past, no one will be able to understand what that means. So we say Buddha remembered this, or the arahat remembered that. When, therefore, Buddha wanted to say something about the remembrance of things past exercising his pubbenivaasana ~naa.na, as it is called, he used the pa~n~natta desanaa. (7) If we say we make our offerings to the khandhas, it will be ambiguous. One khandha gives food to another khandha. One khandha gives robes to another khandha. How can khandhas give and how can they receive them? Which group of matter can promote merits of giving away, and which group demerits? Which group of matter is wholesome and which unwholesome? If one links to abstracts, confusions would surely arise. Buddha, therefore, referred to the giver and the recipient as individuals. [snip long discussion of various kinds of daana] On Sanghika daana buddha has this to say: "O Ananda! Never would I say that charity towards individuals is more beneficial to the donor than that towards the Order." In the Commentaries it has been shown that giving alms to an ordinary monk whom the entire group of monks directs to receive them as their representative in accordance with the Vinaya rules accrues more merit than giving alms individually to a noble personage such as an arahat. Gifts offered to the Order always rate high. It is when Buddha desired to emphasise on the purity and nobleness of gifts to the Order that he taught in the pa~n~natta desanaa referring to the recipients of gifts in their personal names. So far we have the four kinds of pure gifts, fourteen kinds of gifts to individuals and seven kinds of gifts to the Order. In referring to them paramattha desanaa is not employed and therefore there is not the slightest mention of khandhas or aayatanas, sense-spheres. Only individuals are mentioned. This is a point worthy of note for donors and donees alike when they are performing libation. SEMBLANCE OF VIPASSANA IN ACTS OF CHARITY I emphasise this point just to remind you of the impropriety of allowing a semblance of vipassanaa getting mixed up in acts of charity. Some would like to think that it is better if, in practising charitableness, insight-meditation is also practised. So during the libation the following formula is used: "I, who am but a bunch of khandhas, made up of naama and ruupa, make this offering to the individual, who is also but a bunch of khandhas, of these material objects which are also a bunch of khandhas, subject to the laws of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality." This formula is not in accord with Buddha's teaching. It is incongruous. Daana, the act of giving, is performed for the sake of merits derived from it. It is not performed for the sake of insight meditation. If one's mind is bent upon insight-meditation, there is no necessity for one to be giving alms. One should merely retire to a place of solitude and practise insight-meditation, then his power of concentration will get strengthened, thereby giving him the utmost benefit. He will then gain vipassanaa kusala, merits derived from insight meditation. It is a world of difference between a proper meditation exercise and a mere one or two minutes of it during the performance of libation. What is important in acts of charity is to render oneself worthy of the accumulation of daana kusala, merits derived from giving alms, by giving them away with sincerity of purpose. That is why we have been exhorting almsgivers to rejoice in their good deeds. Merits gained from charitable acts will be multiplied if the giver of alms contemplate on the high morality of the recipients or the usefulness and propriety of the objects given away. Such contemplation would lead to more rejoicing because of which the giver will enjoy the cumulative effects of the merits gained. If he contemplates on the khandhas of the recipient and realises their true nature, he will not be able to discriminate between the morality and immorality or the nobleness and ignominy of the latter, for, these qualities emanating from the khandhas are all abstractions. Again, if he contemplates on the khandhas relating to the objects he gives away and realises their true nature, all what he has given away would be worthless like stones and pebbles, in which case what is there for him to rejoice? Without rejoicing his daana kusala comes to naught. It may be argued, as indeed some actually do, that as insight-meditation is nobler than charitableness, stones and pebbles, in which case what is there for him to rejoice? Without rejoicing his daana kusala come to naught. It may be argued, as indeed some actually do, that as insight-meditation is nobler than charitableness, it will be more profitable to indulge in it than to give away things in charity. Indeed that argument is sound. Once all worries relating to alms-giving are eliminated, there will be more time to concentrate on meditation. In actual fact, charitableness is practised not for purposes of insight-meditation but for gaining merits from giving. If that be so, it is better that the donor contemplates on his act of giving away so that he rejoices at it with the result that his merits get accumulated. When, therefore, Buddha wanted to teach his disciples and devotees about the purity of gifts, he employed the pa~n~nattha desanaa, naming the individuals. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37872 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:29am Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 04 ) IV. RECOGNISING RIDING FLOW We have left the past. Do not touch them again. We have started treatment of stress and sufferings. That treatment is healing Dhamma for heating dhammas that are the nature causing us suffer. How does that medicine heal our sufferings? Let us see how it works. First we have to know how to take that medicine. The way we should take that medicine is to attend the very present. This sounds very easy when written in this way but actually is not. How do we take the present? It is simple that we all are taking the present. Do you feel confused? Please do not let yourselves confued and I am not confusing you at all. I am just trying to explain in very simple English words. If not clear at any point, questions are welcome. If that is the case that we all are taking the present, why should we need to attend the present then? Actually we should attend the present. I mean we all should consciously attend the present. Even though we all are taking the present, in actual term we are not attending the present, I mean we do not know that we are taking the present. This reveals that we all are ignorant that we are taking the present or present events. As I said in the previous posts in this series, events are arising and falling away one after another. This sounds like flowing of the water in a river. Events pass one after another in a serial manner in a defined being ( satta ) like you. There is no 2 events at the same moment. Regarding what events are, I have explained these in the previous post. So events are arising and falling away one after another in us and we actually do not know this. Even though we are taking the real present, we do not attend that present because of ignorance. What should we do to attend the present that we are talking right now? This is a hard job in real term. But there are guidelines to do such things. Before we start what the guidelines are, we should know that there is a continuous flow of events. Again, these events are taken by us at the present. But the problem is that we do not know that we are taking that present. If we know that we are taking the present, then we are attending the present consciously. This is like we know what we ride while we and what we ride are moving forward with non-stop manner. So this is like events are flowing and we are riding on that flow and at the same time when we are riding that flow we are attending that flow and know that flow as it is moving. This is recognition of flowing events. Recognising riding flow is a hard thing to achieved. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37873 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:32am Subject: Final update from India, plus belated update from last week (!) Hello All We are now in Kolkatta for our last night in India. Finally a hotel with a computer that can read my USB key!! I am adding below a post that has been waiting since Tuesday of last week to be sent out, and then will be sending through 1 or 2 of Sarah's. It has been another long day, journeying from our hotel in Sikkim to Bagdogra by bus, then a flight to Kolkatta. After reaching our hotel here we had a discussion in the nice garden, then most people rushed off to the final dinner, while Sarah and I have opted to stay behind and catch up with posts on the list. Sikkim was rather beautiful, with some snow-capped peaks (including K2) visible from our room. We had a relaxing day yesterday (yes, more discussion) and just enjoyed the surroundings. This morning, after another 4:00 AM wake-up, we said our goodbyes to Nina and Lodewijk who are staying on in another part of Sikkiim for the next week or so. Tomorrow (Sunday) is yet another 4:00 AM wake-up for the goup for the flight back to Bangkok and, for Sarah and me, a connecting flight on to Hong Kong, arriving there late evening. We are rather tired, but have had a great trip. Talk to you all again from Hong Kong. Jon *************************************** Report from Benares Tues of last week After a restful afternoon at the hotel reading the interesting exchanges, we took a rickshaw into Bodh Gaya to the stupa site to join the others (they had been visiting one or two places before going to the Bodhi tree. Riding by rickshaw into the village as darkness was falling was fun; there's always so much going on along the roadside in India. At the Bodhi tree our group paid respect by walking around the stupa, reciting aloud the virtues of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, and sitting quietly by the Bodhi tree until it was time to leave. Yesterday (Monday) the whole day was taken up with the drive from Bodh Gaya to Benares. Although only 300 miles, progress was painfully slow at times due to the condition of the road and the amount of traffic (mostly trucks) and roadwork. Fortunately, the roadworks are part of a project to upgrade the present 2-lane, deeply potholed road with a 4-lane, dual carriageway highway, which will probably halve the journey time (i.e., to 4 hours) when completed. Our hotel in Benares (Clark's) is one of those British Raj time-warps, with everything exactly as it was a few decades ago (including the menu -- 'Queen's pudding' for dessert). But we are out and about most of the time, so it serves the purpose. It has extensive lawns and gardens, and we had a good discussion outside this morning after breakfast, with the sound of birds for company. The morning's outing was to the Maha-Bodhi Society's temple at the stupa at Saranath, where we offered lunch to 120 monks from many different temples including Burmese, Tibetan and Sri Lankan (as well as Thai and Indian, of course). After the lunch we offered robes and other requisites to the monks. This afternoon we will be visiting the stupa at Saranath that commemorates the teaching of the first sutta: the setting in motion of the wheel of dhamma. There will also be the chance to pay respect to the relics of the Buddha kept at the vihara of the Maha-Bodhi Society. 37874 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:43am Subject: India 3 Dear Friends, We're only half way throught the day in Varanasi -- supposedly a rest day after the long trip here yesterday. Friends are beginning to report the usual 'Delhi belly' problems, sore throats, headaches and so on which always accompany these trips. The beautiful last evening in Bodh Gaya started for Jon and I with a bicylce rickshaw to near the stupa from our hotel, a wander around some of my old haunts and then joining the others circling the stupa and bo tree with candles, followed by chanting, whilst a novice bhikkhu ordained. Other Tibetan and and Sri Lankan pilgrims also chanted and paid their respects and somehow the insects and beggars around the entrance were now more like friends too and it was easier to be smiling with metta and piti too. The area around the bo tree is very special....the path where so many arahants have walked as a friend reminded me.... Back to the rest day in Varanasi after hours and hours of watching Indian life pass by from the bus window yesterday, only broken by visits into the fields to 'pick flowers' as we refer to our 'nature stops' or to break for a super Indian picnic. Jon, Nina, Betty and myself joined K.Sujin in the garden this morning after an early breakfast for a standing discussion whilst most the group were on the Ganges for the sunrise. Whatever the point raised, her reply always came back as usual to understanding the present reality and leaving aside what one doesn't understand or appreciate. It never fazes her in the slightest whatever anyone might criticize or be concerned about -- it all comes back to our ignorance of present dhammas as if they were 'behind a black curtain'. The Ganges group returned and some like Azita joined us to ask more questions about points raised before on list. Hopefully others will be adding their comments and reports later. By now Nina and K.Sujin were having difficulty standing in one place (nowhere to sit), but the discussion continued until it was time to leave for Sarnath. I felt a lot of respect for both of them yesterday for putting up with many difficult physical conditions for the sake of dhamma and out of great saddha in the holy places. Attachment to satipatthana and wanting knowledge for self, rather than understanding the present nama or rupa keeps being mentioned in discussions with K.Sujin too. Just as we were getting on the bus, Azita and I went to watch some dancing monkeys and then I saw the really large python around the shoulders of the monkey-man. Following Azita's fine example, to my amazement, I first touched then gingerly stroked the python and eventually let the monkey man wrap the python around my neck. It must have been at least 6 feet -- maybe 10, I have no idea. The monkey man then proceeded to open his basket and a deadly cobra started to dance, but still I had the python around me and was now anxious to be free of it as the fear returned, but a little metta too as I bid my new friend farewell. Sarnath is spell-binding - a beautiful green park with the fine stupa. A very, very stirring occasion as we paid our respects, offered dana to 120 bhikhus from many different traditions together, a fine speech by Lodewijk....a little discussion with the Sri Lankan, Burmese and Tibetan monks.....very inspiring and now it's time to return to Sarnath for the evening ceremoniess. it's always a very, very special place for me and today we read the first sermon, Dhammacakkhupavatthana Sutta on a plaque as I stood in the park in the very spot where the Buddha set the wheel of Dhamma turning. Meanwhile the Thais in the group looked and read the Thai plaque which was placed there sponsored by the Foundation itself from Bangkok. This post will be sent later ..no internet connection. Metta, Sarah 37875 From: connieparker Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:50am Subject: Re: Rupa The art of ending a discussion > Not to confuse nama and rupa, but I like this from Narada's Manual of > Abhidhamma: > < > Inseparably connected with heat is vaayo, the element of motion. Movements > are caused by this element. Motion is regarded as the force or the > generator of heat. "Motion and heat in the material realm correspond > respectively to consciousness and Kamma in the mental." > > I am confused by Ven. Narada's statement. My understanding is that the proximate cause of heat is the other three great essentials, not only motion. I know that Ven. Narada does not typically quote his sources; has anybody else read about this special relationship between heat and motion? Metta, Rob M :-) Hi, Rob M :-) I guess since there are always at least the primary and 4 main derivatives for the kalapa, he's not talking about proximate, but upanissayo or adhipati conditions. I hadn't considered heat as a function of the friction between extension and cohesion before, though... about which, by the way, he also writes: Why mention just those when it seems that any one of the maha's ceasing would have that effect on all the others? Or why single out extension as "the substratum of all matter"? Anyway, in case it helps, he also said "In preparing this translation, Buddhist Psychology by Mrs. Rhys Davids and the Compendium of Philosophy (Abhidhammattha Sa"ngaha) by Mr. Shwe Zan Aung proved extremely helpful to me. Liberty has been taken to quote them wherever necessary with due acknowledgement." peace, connie 37876 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:49am Subject: India 4 Dear Friends, I'm sitting in our little hotel room near Lumbini with a loud chorus of bicycle and rickshaw bells, Indian music and chatter are coming through the window. As soon as we crossed the border into Nepal on our very long and bumpy bus ride yesterday, we noticed how clean it is this side and how we can wander around without any hassle at all. Everyone in the hotel is so willing to help as well, though it seems there's not much alternatived to umbrellas for some like Shakti and Pinna to avoid being 'rained on' whilst using their toilet;-). The rest of the group have gone to Lumbini for the afternoon after a morning English discussion here which started with reminders that when we're sick, the stories and the clinging to self are what cause the problems. We worry about how we'll manage or think back over the causes and forget there is just seeing or visible object or another reality appearing at this moment. More and more friends are having sleep problems and I had been forced to sit up during the night but I was reminded Sariputta used to sit up through the night too ;-). When there's sati, there's no 'me' or 'sickness' or trouble of any kind. Sarnath already seems like a dream. On the last evening we walked around the stupa with candles. Jon, Jill and I walked around after the rest of the group in the pitch dark. It was the highlight of the trip for me so far - perfectly peaceful and so very inspiring in the beautiful park. Even at such inspiring moments, lobha sneaks in, almost wishing respect or inspiration to occur or particular results in between moments of genuine wise reflection or occasional sati. Attachment too to being in Sarnath once again for me. If I can stretch the highlight, it would also have to include the following ceremony held in the Mahabodhi temple building nearby. To my great joy, we recited the Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta out loud in our broken Pali, following the words in a booklet, whilst a Sri Lankan group of pilgrims recited it perfectly with no booklet. We got just a taste of how inspiring and melodious it can be to recite with bhikkhus. Other texts were recited too before we were greatly honoured to be shown one by one the relics which are kept locked and in a vault. We were shown a tiny piece of bone, smaller than a finger nail, surrounded by ash. They were found at a Buddhist shrine or excavation site in Punjab and were determined to be original relics. We read that the teachings still can be known while the relics exist. This was the first time I really felt real confidence in and great respect for the relics. It's been along acquired confidence in my case. Later we individually bowed low as the relics in a casket were placed on our heads by the chief bhikkhu reciting the Mangala Sutta. K.Sujin was given special honours by him and also helped to return the relics to the vault which is only ever opened very occasionally, perhaps once a year on average. We were very honoured indeed, no matter how one might view such a ceremony. On our long bus ride yesterday, we watched Indian life pass by again, we had very brief chats together -- too bumpy to read or chat to friends in other seats. As it was growing dark, Jon and I chanted the Dhammacakka Pavatana Sutta again and Lodewijk and Nina in front of us kindly said they enjoyed it too, in spite of our poor pronunciation;-). Again, I'm so impressed by the cheerfulness of the whole group, even though everyone finds the conditions really tough at times.....K.Sujin continues to remind us of the 'patience, courage and good cheer' which Azita always signs off with. Her example of selflessness and kindness is really most impressive as always. At the very end of the long bus ride yesterday, whilst everyone else jumped off the bus as quickly as possible, she stayed behind to give a little chat to a friend who has lost interest in Abhidhamma recently. K.Sujin stressed that it doesn't matter at all, but even at these times the present reality can be known with understanding and detachment. It cannot be changed to anything else and wishing to have more interest or to have different accumulations merely indicates more lobha once again. Abhidhamma or dhamma always has to be the understanding of the present reality. There are all the things we try so hard to get or experience in a day, but we forget that life is just this very moment of seeing now, for example. Metta, Sarah p.s Delays in sending these posts in the search for a good internet connection;-) 37877 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:56am Subject: India 6 Dear Friends, Dhamma discussions have flowed into further discussions, stupa and temple sites into further sites and long, long bus rides on the dusty tracks into further long, long bus rides. I've completely lost track of days and haven't looked at a newspaper or TV since we left. We're in quite another world and yet it's still only the world at one moment through eyes or ears, nose, tongue, body or mind door. Tomorrow we head out to Rajghir to climb Vulture's Peak and to visit Nalanda before flying up to Sikkhim the next morning. Funny, I'm now so used to the long journeys and having meals with over a hundred friends, I'm already thinking I'll soon be missing the bus rides, the scenery, the company and most of all the discussions together. As the journey continues, I hear more and more friends discussing satipatthana over meals, in the bus, whilst stopping to 'pick flowers' and so on, in spite of so many being sick or having other difficulties such as lost bags and so on. I think we're all just beginning to really adjust to the lifestyle;-). 'It has happened', 'it has happened', I hear K. Sujin saying repeatedly when Nina raised some of the points discussed before on DSG about akusala (unwholesome) tendencies, sometimes in gross form. K. Sujin said that she too has akusala and 'it doesn't matter at all'. 'So what? It's just a moment. How about developing understanding instead of thinking about it and regretting what's gone already. It has happened. What can we do about what's gone already? When citta thinks, it depends whether it's kusala or akusala. When it's kusala, it knows it's just a moment, not 'I'. Otherwise, we take the past, future and present for 'I'.' Nina asked about when it's so gross and again K.Sujin replied: 'It has happened' and stressed detachment with understanding of the present reality. We've discussed the long stories we all have about what we see on the bus rides - the lush and dry scenery, the extreme poverty and beggar children and so on. Lots and lots of paying attention to details and so little awareness of visible objects, sounds or thinking as realities. And yet still, I want to tell you about the lotus ponds on route, the pitch-black flower stops and all the other proliferations. Azita found her taste of a hell realm on the bus yesterday and I found my in the filthy, stinky internet cubicle Jon and I found ourselves in today - the best on offer here in Patna apparently. Onward Rajghir. The cave where the Buddha taught the Dighanakka Sutta will have extra significance this time round. K.Sujin stressed that a wrong view without any understanding of anatta can never be 'close' to being right when we raised Dighanakka's words of 'everything is not pleasing to me'. The words may be similar, such as when someone with out right understanding might say 'I have no attachment' or like when we talk about the close and far enemies of the brahma viharas as Jon suggested, but it's only the words which are close, not the understanding or wholesome states. More best wishes from other friends, inc. some lurking members to all on DSG. Metta, Sarah 37878 From: Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:06am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi, James (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/30/04 5:14:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Ken O and Howard, > > Yes, thank you for the sutta quote, Ken. It does seem to answer the > question and there aren't really any gaps in consciousness. I am > quite intereted in that point of when one citta perishes the other > arises...there is something there that interests me. Can't explain > why. Anyway, thanks again. > > Metta, James > ====================== Yes, me too for some unknown reason. There is an odd, basic interest to the matter. There seem to be several alternative conceptual schemes possible, including at least the following: 1) A sequence of distinct mind-states separated by nothingness-gaps, 2) A continuous flow of undifferentiated consciousness with changing content, 3) A sequence of contiguous, distinguishable mindstates, with a non-durational moment of zero consciousness at each contiguity point and 4) A sequence of contiguous mindstates, distinguishable, but not sharply so, with one shading off into the next. Of all of these, I characterize #1 as nihilist and #2 as eternalist. Now, #4 may countenance a consciousness substance or an ongoing operation of knowing (as a subject knows an object) varying in intensity but never reaching level zero, or it may view consciousness as the mere presence of content. In the first view, #4 probably becomes indistinguishable from the eternalist #2. On the other hand, if it takes consciousness merely as presence of an object, then the difference between #4 and #3 is that #4 seems to allow for moments at which two objects may coexist, with one "going out" and the other "coming in". That latter seems problematical, and it outright contradicts Abhidhamma, and maybe sutta as well. So, #4, as appealing as it might be to me, has to be rejected, I think. This then leaves # 3 as the only apparently viable alternative: A sequence of contiguous, distinguishable mindstates, with a non-durational moment of zero consciousness at each contiguity point. In one reading, the zero consciousness point is a non-durational point at which the operation of knowing is absent, non-functioning. In another reading, it is a non-durational point at which no experiential content (i.e., no object) is present. It seems to me that we just don't know whether a non-durational moment, in either sense, is ever actually experienced. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. I think it can be, as an after-the fact detected "blip". In any case, I believe that a moment of zero duration is not properly considered a gap. A gap, as I see it, must have positive, though possibly miniscule, duration. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37879 From: Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: Continuity and Speed (was Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimate Reality) Hi again, James & Ken - In a message dated 10/30/04 11:09:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > There seem to be several alternative conceptual schemes > possible, including at least the following: 1) A sequence of distinct > mind-states > separated by nothingness-gaps, 2) A continuous flow of undifferentiated > consciousness with changing content, 3) A sequence of contiguous, > distinguishable > mindstates, with a non-durational moment of zero consciousness at each > contiguity > point and 4) A sequence of contiguous mindstates, distinguishable, but not > sharply so, with one shading off into the next. > Of all of these, I characterize #1 as nihilist and #2 as eternalist. > Now, #4 may countenance a consciousness substance or an ongoing > operation of knowing (as a subject knows an object) varying in intensity but > never > reaching level zero, or it may view consciousness as the mere presence of > content. In the first view, #4 probably becomes indistinguishable from the > eternalist #2. On the other hand, if it takes consciousness merely as > presence of an > object, then the difference between #4 and #3 is that #4 seems to allow for > moments at which two objects may coexist, with one "going out" and the other > > "coming in". That latter seems problematical, and it outright contradicts > Abhidhamma, and maybe sutta as well. So, #4, as appealing as it might be to > me, has to > be rejected, I think. > This then leaves # 3 as the only apparently viable alternative: A > sequence of contiguous, distinguishable mindstates, with a non-durational > moment > of zero consciousness at each contiguity point. > =========================== I have been thinking over this matter further, and I find that I am inclined to reject # 3 as well! As I consider it, it seem to me that we in fact never do observe a zero-durational moment. Single, zero-durational points it seems to me are nothing but theoretical, conceptual constructs. In fact, the entire mathematical view of time as an infinite line *consisting of an uncountable, linear infinity of zero-dimensional points*, the so-called real line, while useful for a variety of predictive theories, does not accord with empirical reality inasmuch as points are never observed. Now, rejecting # 3 as well, of course, leaves none of the alternatives! In fact, I think that the entire conceptual-analytic approach to understanding reality is doomed to failure ultimately, merely bogs us down in a host of concepts and reification, and must be rejected as a solution. What we *can* come to see is the empirical reality of the tilakkhana. We can come to see that conditions present at a time are later no longer present, that dependable satisfaction is not to be found in conditions, and that conditions are impersonal and lack self-existence. It seems to me that awakening to reality doesn't have conceptual thought as a doorway, but as a flawed foreshadowing at best. It seems to me that the practice trio of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na constitutes the doorway, and that the reality of nibbana will present itself to a mind made calm and clear by its cultivation of a relentless movement in the direction of increasing lucidity. We should not presuppose the nature of that reality, but just continue to look at what arises with a clarity that avoids both blanking out (i.e., sinking into the sloth and torpor of pseudo-samadhi) and getting lost in thought. The slogan "Just look!" works for me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37880 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 05 ) V. WHERE ARE WE AND WE ARE NOWHERE Recognising riding flow is a hard thing to achieve. But it is not unachievable in the least. We have to steadfastly and diligently strive to achieve such power to recognise the flow of events while we can see ourselves riding on that flow. Again this may be hard to understand. But there are guidlines and methods to deal with such events. There are many differtent ways to deal with calming down the heating thoughts. Different people would say differently on this matter of process of calming down all the heating thoughts. Whatever will be will be, it is quite apparent that heating thoughts should first be dealt with before the processes are investigated so that we can recognize riding flow. Everything that arises as event is recognised if they are attended. This recognition process is dictated by the thoughts. If these thoughts are clouded, then dictating thoughts will not be able to dictate effectively because of these cloudiness. Cloud frequently arises because of changes in heating thoughts. This heat will depend on the original source of causation of heat. The original source is often handled with some habitual behaviour. We people are not free of habit. There may be good habits and there may also be bad habits. Habits are formed because of frequent practice and this again is because of ignorance. When we cannot still clear away ignorance, we can know our habit if we can remove ignorance temporarily. If the habit is that of sensual thinking, then clouding mind should first treated with contemplating on impurity and foulness or contemplating on each of body parts which are finally nothing but to be disgusted. When these are practised for some time, clouding mind of sensuous thinking will become thinner. If the habit is that of spreading and wandering thinking, then wandering mind should be tied at a point like contemplating on breathing. If the habit is that of explosive destructive thnking, then cooling contemplation such as loving kindness should be practised. At least wilder forms of heating thoughts should be calmed down first. When wilder forms are calmed down, then we have to deal with more gentle and subtle forms. The main power that we should hold is actually in our hand. It is confidence and faith. This will lead us to continuous searching of way to release suffering. Because of confidence, we may find joy when we meet the possible way to clear the suffering. With joy we should steadfastly follow the path that leads us to free of suffering. In approaching the path, we have to be mindful first. When we are mindful and attentive, then we will see the arising events clearly. As events are arising everywhere and at any time, we should first make a focus to tie wilder mind. It is the best to tie at breath. At first, heating thoughts release mind from the breath and attract and persuade to follow them. But with some practice, we will soon be able to follow our breath. When the breath is long we will know it as long and as short when it is short. Whether the breath is long or short, there are many events between in and out breath. We have to be mindful and alert to events. As there are numerous events, we cannot follow every event. But the most important thing is that we we follow event after event, we must know each fully. When the habit of following events has been set in, it will no more be a problem. When we obtain this rhythm, then we are riding the flow and at the same time, we are recognising that riding flow. When riding flow of events is recognised, we ourselves realise that there are no we or us at all. When event after event can be follow with fully alert consciousness and attentively, we will consider that there are no we or us at all. Where are we? We are nowhere and there are only impersonal processes that rotate the cycle and the flow will then be our main tool to approach the Path. When approaching the path, we do recognize the track of mind. Where are we, we are nowhere but there are only the mind's track. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37881 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:53pm Subject: Re: Rupa The art of ending a discussion Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > > > Not to confuse nama and rupa, but I like this from Narada's Manual > of > > Abhidhamma: > > < > > Inseparably connected with heat is vaayo, the element of motion. > Movements > > are caused by this element. Motion is regarded as the force or > the > > generator of heat. "Motion and heat in the material realm > correspond > > respectively to consciousness and Kamma in the mental." > > > > > I am confused by Ven. Narada's statement. My understanding is that > the proximate cause of heat is the other three great essentials, not > only motion. I know that Ven. Narada does not typically quote his > sources; has anybody else read about this special relationship > between heat and motion? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > Hi, Rob M :-) ===== Thank you for appending the emoticon :-) to my name. Does the smile exist without the Rob M; does the Rob M exist without the smile? ===== > I guess since there are always at least the primary and 4 main derivatives > for the kalapa, he's not talking about proximate, but upanissayo or > adhipati conditions. ===== Referring to the chart of conditioning / conditioned states in BB's CMA, this does not seem to fit. But that's okay, let's not spend any more time on this. ===== > I hadn't considered heat as a function of the > friction between extension and cohesion before, though... about which, by > the way, he also writes: closely interrelated that when cohesion ceases extension disappears.> Why > mention just those when it seems that any one of the maha's ceasing would > have that effect on all the others? Or why single out extension as "the > substratum of all matter"? > Anyway, in case it helps, he also said "In preparing this translation, > Buddhist Psychology by Mrs. Rhys Davids and the Compendium of Philosophy > (Abhidhammattha Sa"ngaha) by Mr. Shwe Zan Aung proved extremely helpful to > me. Liberty has been taken to quote them wherever necessary with due > acknowledgement." Metta, Rob M :-) 37882 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:06pm Subject: Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi All, I have accepted an invitation to deliver a 90 minute Dhamma talk on the Noble Eightfold Path to a group of about 50 samaneras and upasakas between the ages 12-18 as part of their week-long Novitiate Program. I have a couple of weeks to prepare. I would like to give my friends on DSG a chance to accrue merit by helping me with ideas. Clearly, given the age group, my approach must be less academic and more anecdotal to keep up the kids' interest level. Please share stories or analogies that I can insert to drive home the salient points. Please point me to any articles on this subject aimed at youth readers. Metta, Rob M :-) 37883 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Very nice Rob, anumodanaa--the samaneras at my old wat were sadly deprived of adh., I'm afraid--well, it was the Northeast. Many of those in the Forest Revival tradition take a pretty dim view of abhidhamma. If I can think of anything I'll pass it along. Cheers, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:06 PM Subject: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens 37884 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi Mike, Given my background, some Abhidhamma will definitely creep into my talk, but given the audience, I did not want to make Abhidhamma the theme. Please do not limit your suggestions to those with an Abhidhamma flavour. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Very nice Rob, anumodanaa--the samaneras at my old wat were sadly deprived > of adh., I'm afraid--well, it was the Northeast. Many of those in the > Forest Revival tradition take a pretty dim view of abhidhamma. > > If I can think of anything I'll pass it along. > > Cheers, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robmoult" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:06 PM > Subject: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens 37885 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 10/27/04 11:47:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > If I may, I'd like to explain what I mean, though it may well differ > from what Ken means. I will explain by examples. > i) When I remember an experienced hardness, the object of that > mindstate is a mind-door object, specifically, a memory, and the referent of that > memory is the previously perceived hardness. > ii) When I perceive or recognize a currently experienced hardness (as > such), the object of that mindstate is a mind-door object, a percept - the > most elementary sort of concept, and the referent of that percept is the > body-door object that is the actual hardness. > iii) When I *think* of hardness, the object of the mindstate is a > mind-door object, a concept/idea. The intended referent of that idea was never > directly experienced through any sense door and is a merely imagined abstract > entity called "hardness". An idea which seems to have a referent but does not is, > of course, a delusive idea. However, this particular idea, while delusive > and concept-only (i.e., having no true referent), is still well grounded in that > there are many actual, mutually related experiences that could legitimately > be called "instances" of that idea. > iv) Ideas of "self" or of "righteous anger" or of "useful ignorance", > however, are examples of fully delusive ideas, not even having any instances > let alone actual referents. > > ========================== Dear Howard, Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I am still rather lost, perhaps if you quote some texts where 'referent' or its equivalent is used we can work back to find what the pali is. I take it referent is sometimes concept and sometimes not. Is it the same as object(aramana)? Robert 37886 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:20pm Subject: Re: Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Dear Rob M, I lead a discussion list on the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. Here are some materials that may be appropriate for young people: Right View: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2905 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2952 Right Intention: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2958 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2910 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2957 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2956 Right Speech: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2966 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2967 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2968 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2969 Right Action: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2954 Right Livelihood: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2868 Right Effort: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2901 Right Mindfulness: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/3013 Right Concentration: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/3014 with metta / Antony. 37887 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:33pm Subject: We are the owner of our actions Dear Group, Thanissaro Bhikkhu taught: "I am the owner of my actions. All beings are the owner of their actions." It's interesting Ajaan Suwat gave a Dhamma talk on this reflection, the difference between the anatta teaching and this one statement. Form, feeling, perception, thought-constructs, consciousness: these are not self. But we are the owner of our actions. So think about that." from “The Four Sublime Attitudes” http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/1612 http://www.mettaforest.org/Audio%20Dhamma.htm with metta / Antony. 37888 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:38pm Subject: Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hello Robert. R> I am still rather lost, perhaps if you quote some texts R> where 'referent' or its equivalent is used we can work back R> to find what the pali is. The Pali is vatthu; it occurs numerous times in the Dhammasanganii. R> I take it referent is sometimes concept and sometimes not. Not in the Dhs. But yes, in the context of linguistics or grammar discussions. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37889 From: Andrew Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sariputta's Answer --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Andrew: "Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or > inferiority conceit (as it is called in Nyanatiloka's dictionary)?" > > Hi Andrew, > > Besides being the favorite past-time of those who suffer from > depression, self contempt is perhaps the most basic of the conceits. > "Self" as concept denotes permanence and wholeness. This is continuously > being undermined by the impermanence and incompleteness (anatta) of > experience (reality). "Self" continuously fails to be itself in that > experience fails to manifest as the permanence and wholeness of concept. > Self contempt is almost inevitable. The solution: concept isn't real. > > Larry Dear Eric and Larry Thanks for your helpful replies. I guess I was wondering why, of the "threefold conceit" referred to in Nyanatiloka's dictionary, Sariputta mentioned only one: omana. But I suppose if he had to mention everything, he would have been there for hours. (-: I like your solution, Larry. Best wishes Andrew T 37890 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:47pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika! Whereupon the Sautrantika grabbed him by the ears... Hello Andrew. A> If a teacher tells you a mansion exists and you should build A> a staircase to it, must you verify the existence of the A> mansion first before starting work on the staircase? If I were an apprentice builder and the master-builder told me to start building a staircase leading (apparently) into empty space, I should ask him why. And if he told me that it's *not* empty space but there's really a mansion there, then I should end my indentureship with him at the earliest possible opportunity and advise him to seek psychiatric help. A> If not, at what point should you stop building and A> expect/demand verification? I wouldn't even start building at the behest of such a man. A> Also, in a post to Ken H, you quoted from Lance Cousins. A> Could you please give the reference? I only have a 1996 A> article by him in JBE and I don't think that's the one you A> quoted. I took the quote from "Buddhist Thought" by Paul Williams (Routledge, 2000). Williams cites Cousins' entry for 'Abhidhamma' in "A New Dictionary of Religions", ed. J.R. Hinnells (Blackwell, 1995). The parts of your post that I have snipped, I will answer later. In the meantime, could you tell me which part of Hoffman's book you had in mind when you wrote: A> I note Frank Hoffman writes of saddha being important both A> before and after verification. Do you disagree with him? I have not been able to find what you are referring to. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 37891 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > > Hello Robert. > > R> I am still rather lost, perhaps if you quote some texts > R> where 'referent' or its equivalent is used we can work back > R> to find what the pali is. > > The Pali is vatthu; it occurs numerous times in the > Dhammasanganii. > > R> I take it referent is sometimes concept and sometimes not. > > Not in the Dhs. But yes, in the context of linguistics or > grammar discussions. > > =========== Dear Dighanaka, Thanks! I know vatthu well in the texts(usually translated as 'base'). It refers to the six sense bases which are all physical phenomena: the cakhhu,sota,ghana,jivha,kayaa and hadayavatthus. Is there any reason to prefer referent for base when translating? RobertK 37892 From: Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/30/04 9:50:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I am still rather lost, > perhaps if you quote some texts where 'referent' or its equivalent > is used we can work back to find what the pali is. I take it > referent is sometimes concept and sometimes not. Is it the same as > object(aramana)? > Robert > ========================= I'm using the word 'referent' as an ordinary-language word, Robert, and not something translated from the Pali, though perhaps there is such a term there. I understand memories, percepts, and concepts to be mental objects, each one of which is a mental construct via sa~n~na and/or sankhara. They, themselves, are objects appearing through the mind door, just as are feelings and emotions. But these are special sorts of objects in that a memory, percept, or concept is always a memory, percept, or concept *of* something. That is, each of these things refers to or is intended to refer to something. That "something" may be an actual dhamma (like an odor or bodily sensation or sound, for example), or it may just be an imagined but not completely baseless entity/event based upon a collection of related dhammas, or may even be a complete fiction. Whatever that "something" may be, it is what I mean by the referent of the memory, percept, or concept. Only in the case of an actual dhamma is the referent a reality. The notion of the referent or intended referent of a language term is well known in linguistics (semantics), in formal logic, and in ordinary language use. I'm applying it to memories, percepts, and concepts in the same sense. For example, a percept of a tree is a mind-door object. What it's intended referent is is a botanical growth of a particular type. But there is no *actual* referent, because "the tree" is neither an existing entity nor an occurring event. The percept, however, is not an utter illusion, because it is based on a large collection of actually occurring, related rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37893 From: Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi Robert, Howard, and Dighanakha, Referent = meaning. The pali might be attha. See p.326 CMA. "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things." The meaning of "anger" is a concept. Anger itself is a reality. Howard's position is something like: since consciousness is a reality whatever is an object of consciousness is a kind of reality, like dream, mirage, sign (nimitta), even error. A precedent might be ditthi. Wrong view both is and isn't a reality. Same for perception (sa~n~naa) as identity or memory. However, I think it is more expedient pathwise to emphasize the idea that concept is not reality. Also, I would say that concept and reality are always mixed together. Larry 37894 From: Andrew Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: Saddha (was Enter the Abhidhammika...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > > Hello Andrew. > > A> If a teacher tells you a mansion exists and you should build > A> a staircase to it, must you verify the existence of the > A> mansion first before starting work on the staircase? > > If I were an apprentice builder and the master-builder told > me to start building a staircase leading (apparently) into > empty space, I should ask him why. And if he told me that > it's *not* empty space but there's really a mansion there, > then I should end my indentureship with him at the earliest > possible opportunity and advise him to seek psychiatric help. > > A> If not, at what point should you stop building and > A> expect/demand verification? > > I wouldn't even start building at the behest of such a man. Hello DN I assume from the above that you are prone to advising quantum physicists to seek psychiatric help? Particularly those who argue that there are dimensions in our universe that we cannot experience. Remember Einstein and the lion's tail? The master-builder example works well for me with something as practical as building in wood, bricks and mortar. But when dealing with subjects like "consciousness" which even western science has difficulty in defining, the master-builder example doesn't really help me set the parameters for saddha. And I think it's important when I keep reading things in the suttas like "saddha is a treasure". Another thought that occurs to me is that the Buddha's teaching of anatta is (in reverse) somewhat like the master-builder pointing to thin air and saying "see the mansion". "Self" is so obvious to the worldling caught up in passions that anyone who says "self isn't real" is likely to be advised to seek psychiatric help. I know quite a few people who have "dropped" Buddhism upon finding out that "self" as a permanent absolute reality is denied. > > A> Also, in a post to Ken H, you quoted from Lance Cousins. > A> Could you please give the reference? I only have a 1996 > A> article by him in JBE and I don't think that's the one you > A> quoted. > > I took the quote from "Buddhist Thought" by Paul Williams > (Routledge, 2000). Williams cites Cousins' entry for > 'Abhidhamma' in "A New Dictionary of Religions", ed. J.R. > Hinnells (Blackwell, 1995). > > The parts of your post that I have snipped, I will answer > later. In the meantime, could you tell me which part of > Hoffman's book you had in mind when you wrote: > > A> I note Frank Hoffman writes of saddha being important both > A> before and after verification. Do you disagree with him? > > I have not been able to find what you are referring to. > Andrew: The reference is Frank J Hoffman, "Rationality and Mind in Early Buddhism" (Motilal Banarsidass, 1987) p. 83: "... prior to knowing the doctrine saddha is sometimes important, as in 'if faith is born, then he approaches' and 'had he no faith he could not attain whatever is to be won by faith'. p. 80 "... saddha is one of the five qualities (panca vasani) for making progress on the path, and is *prior* to achieving results". On this view, committing the master-builder to a mental institution as soon as he says something that isn't obvious to the apprentice *could* end up being an impediment to progress. There must be other factors to keep in play. The biggest, I think, is honesty about what I can see and understand and what I can't, underpinned by a basic sense of rectitude. Agree? Or should I have myself committed post haste? (-: Best wishes Andrew T 37895 From: Ken O Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hi all k: Yet again, I said show his lack of understanding of Buddha Dhamma, during the act of charity, the kamma is already kusala regardless whether he reflect on it later or not. If he after giving charity, reflect and joy arise on pertaining to kusala, that is further kusala behaviour but not behaviour leading to cessation. Again he forget that the meaning of satipatthana - that is the very moment, even a moment of satipatthana is called cultivation. That is why in the satipatthana sutta, daily acts of living are acts of satipatthana regardless whether one practise vipassana or not. Furthermore when a person gives and realise it is just khandhas, thats is panna, which is the road to cessation of rebirth. Reflection on the joy of giving, only leads to good rebirth but not cessation of rebirth. That is the difference between reflecting on khandhas after giving and reflecting one's merit after giving. Ken O 37896 From: Ken O Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] We are the owner of our actions Hi Anthony because one does not known that each volition carries kamma - as simple as that - so no confusion. When one understand Abdhidhamma, it is very clear cut why Buddha say all beings are the owner fo their action because in each action, even though we are khandhas kamma still arise. Ken O --- Antony Woods wrote: > > Dear Group, > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu taught: > > "I am the owner of my actions. > All beings are the owner of their actions." > > It's interesting Ajaan Suwat gave a Dhamma talk on this reflection, > the > difference between the anatta teaching and this one statement. > Form, > feeling, perception, thought-constructs, consciousness: these are > not self. > But we are the owner of our actions. So think about that." > > from “The Four Sublime Attitudes” > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/1612 > http://www.mettaforest.org/Audio%20Dhamma.htm > > with metta / Antony. > 37897 From: Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/31/04 1:04:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Robert, Howard, and Dighanakha, > > Referent = meaning. The pali might be attha. See p.326 CMA. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Referential meaning is only one kind of meaning, Larry. It is denotational meaning. ----------------------------------------- > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate > sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of > (ultimate) things." > > The meaning of "anger" is a concept. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: That depends on how the word 'anger' is used. If we say "Anger is an emotion," then the referent of the word 'anger' used there is the concept "anger", and that concept, while having instances, does not have an actual referent, though we think it does. On the other hand, if we say "I just experienced anger," the word 'anger' used there, and the corresponding concept, do have an actual referent, the actual anger that just arose. ----------------------------------------- Anger itself is a reality. Howard's> > position is something like: since consciousness is a reality whatever > is an object of consciousness is a kind of reality, like dream, mirage, > sign (nimitta), even error. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, I'm not clear on what you are saying here, Larry. A percept or concept, as I see it, is a mental construct that arises at the mind door just as a feeling or emotion does. It is a perfectly real mental phenomenon. Sometimes it is delusive, however, in varying degrees. Sometimes a percept or concept has an actual referent, and sometimes not. When it does, it is veridical. Often when it does not, it may be imagined that it does, because it is based on a multitude of actual experiences, making it delusive but not groundless. So the tree percept I experience upon glancing out my window *seems* to have a referent that I call "the tree in my garden". In fact, the percept does not have an actual referent, and, in that sense, it is empty. However, the percept, despite being delusive, is still well grounded in that it is based on a multitude of interrelated dhammas that were actually experienced. A percept of a gremlin sitting on top of my computer monitor, however, though an actual mind-door object, is completely groundless, being based on nothing actually experienced. The percept is real but delusive and groundless, having no referent and no basis. -------------------------------------------------- A precedent might be ditthi. Wrong view both> > is and isn't a reality. Same for perception (sa~n~naa) as identity or > memory. However, I think it is more expedient pathwise to emphasize the > idea that concept is not reality. Also, I would say that concept and > reality are always mixed together. > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37898 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 3:58am Subject: India Dear all, Some one asked me what was the most memorable thing about the trip, and I guess it was having a dhamma discussion in the gardens of the Nor-Khill hotel in Gangtok, Sikkim. In the crisp, cool air of mountainous Sikkim, we discussed realities which are appearing now. The hotel was a time warp for me, British/Tibetan would be my best description. I watched the full moon go down over K2 and watched the sun then turn the mountains to pink......ummmm, lobha arises so quickly and so often, and falls away before 'we' even know. That is, before we start our stories about what is seen. I was fortunate to have recorded lots of the wonderful dhamma discussions, so I can listen when back in Aus. I really believe that listening to dhamma explained by the right person, can help one have more understanding and a deeper understanding of the Buddhas teaching. To be reminded often that the Buddha's teaching leads to detachment and not to attachment as happens in my case, when I desire to have awareness of presently arising realities. This is fact, hinders development, therefore it must be right understanding from the very beginning. If we have wrong understanding of realities but believe it is right, then we may follow that 'wrong' path for aeons and never have the opportunity to hear the truth. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 37899 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Fresher !! Hi, I am getting numerous mails after ihave joined your group , i have been ineteracting with one of the member recently for some guidence. Iam a Fresher in gaining some knowledge about buddhism, im 28 and finding a way out to control this wild mind , which is never stable coz of this i have changed many proffesions with not much of sucess, i tried to find many ways to overcome this problem but never was permanent solution. how to start over it, i have read about concentrating on breath. want some uregent help Naresh --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > IV. RECOGNISING > RIDING FLOW > > We have left the past. Do not touch them again. We > have started treatment of stress and sufferings. > That treatment is healing Dhamma for heating dhammas > that are the nature causing us suffer. > 37900 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:04am Subject: India 8 Dear Friends, A Thai friend asked me what the first thing I'd do on return to Hong Kong would be and it seems to be checking in here after just walking in;-) Jon and I had a quick glance (not read) thr' messages he'd copied in Calcutta onto his computer and I look f/w to reading them during the week. Just a quick thx to all who've been posting - look like some great discussions in our absence. Thx also to those who've helped with the friendly tone here and to Joop for his trim reminder too. A bit of a shock to fly back to Hong Kong from India - back to seat- belts, highways with smooth-running traffic, clean streets, a lack of animals on the sides and even the centre of the road, well- dressed people walking briskly and oh, back to a change of shoes after wearing the same canvas pair which really experienced all India has to offer as some will recall in the group, back to my electric toothbrush, a clean computer, a bath and shower which I know how to work..... In other words, a change of stories, a change of objects for lobha...but still the 6 worlds the Buddha taught us about with all the delusion and defilements with regard to the experiencing of visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and touch objects....and the proliferations about them.... Super-tired...will get back in a few days I hope after catching up... Great trip, hope others can join next time. End of my India stories! At b'fast I was reminded that difficulties people faced on the trip were a result of expectations. 'When there's sati, there's no problem'. Metta, Sarah p.s Azita & All from India - good to read yr message - when Nina gets back on line, I'll send a message with links to other earlier India posts sent and any more sent now for those like her who'd like to read them. ======== 37901 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 101 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Three queens of the king dosa are related in some ways. Issa or jealousy and macchariya or stinginess are like twins sisters. The third sister is kukkucca or worry. All three queens are beautifully ugly. Kukkucca or worry is not a citta. But it is a mental factor. It advises the great king citta to be worried. Kukkucca or worry is not dosa. This is sometimes confused. While dosa does its job, kukkucca or worry cause citta worried. Kukkucca is worry on what have been done which were unwholesome. It can also arises when worry on what have not been done as wholesome merits when it should have done. Some comment on kukkucca or worry as the ugliest dhamma that destroys already existing wholesome merit. At the present there are nothing good or bad. If stay in the present, there will not be any bad merit. But when kukkucca or worry arises, the thinkers then welcome unwholesome things in his mind which are not beneficial and even destroying the calm home of mind. Kukkucca always arises with dosa. This may confuse that kukkucca is a dosa. In real term, this is not. Kukkucca is never a dosa. It just worries on the past events which had not done as kusala and which had done as akusala. This is quite apparent that the thinkers are going to the past and digging up destructive dynamite and this dynamite causes explosion with dosa. Kukkucca always bring dosa up along with him. When there are no special objects that may cause akusala, digging up of the past actually is just destroying self tranquality when there is no opportunity for akusala is there. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37902 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi Howard, Sorry for misrepresenting you. I don't understand any of your objections. Even concepts of realities are 100% concept. I thought this was TG's point and you agreed with it. If I say, "I am angry" or " "anger just arose", that is three concepts like three ducks in a row. You can't peek at reality through a concept; you have to use panna. However, knowledge of meaning (attha) is one of the discriminating wisdoms (patisambhida panna?). As to your other point, agreed a perception (sanna) is real but it is either an unreal equation (this = that, aka identity) or a memory which is not real whether what is remembered actually happened or not. The memory of nutriment is not nutriment (the rupa). This is where the metaphor "shadows of (ultimate) things" applies. It doesn't matter whether the "thing" is ultimate or not. It is still a concept though it would be true to say perception and view (ditthi) are both real and not real like an error is a real error, even if we get the name and meaning right. Even though reality and concept are mixed together they are distinctly different, at least according to Theravada abhidhamma. Taking concept for reality is the principle mistake that leads to suffering but I don't think that means we have to try to focus exclusively on reality. In any case it would be impossible. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 10/31/04 1:04:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Robert, Howard, and Dighanakha, > > > > Referent = meaning. The pali might be attha. See p.326 CMA. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Referential meaning is only one kind of meaning, Larry. It is > denotational meaning. > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate > > sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of > > (ultimate) things." > > > > The meaning of "anger" is a concept. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > That depends on how the word 'anger' is used. If we say "Anger is an > emotion," then the referent of the word 'anger' used there is the concept > "anger", and that concept, while having instances, does not have an actual > referent, though we think it does. On the other hand, if we say "I just experienced > anger," the word 'anger' used there, and the corresponding concept, do have an > actual referent, the actual anger that just arose. > ----------------------------------------- > > Anger itself is a reality. Howard's> > > position is something like: since consciousness is a reality whatever > > is an object of consciousness is a kind of reality, like dream, mirage, > > sign (nimitta), even error. > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm, I'm not clear on what you are saying here, Larry. A percept or > concept, as I see it, is a mental construct that arises at the mind door just as > a feeling or emotion does. It is a perfectly real mental phenomenon. > Sometimes it is delusive, however, in varying degrees. Sometimes a percept or concept > has an actual referent, and sometimes not. When it does, it is veridical. > Often when it does not, it may be imagined that it does, because it is based on a > multitude of actual experiences, making it delusive but not groundless. So the > tree percept I experience upon glancing out my window *seems* to have a > referent that I call "the tree in my garden". In fact, the percept does not have an > actual referent, and, in that sense, it is empty. However, the percept, > despite being delusive, is still well grounded in that it is based on a multitude > of interrelated dhammas that were actually experienced. A percept of a gremlin > sitting on top of my computer monitor, however, though an actual mind-door > object, is completely groundless, being based on nothing actually experienced. > The percept is real but delusive and groundless, having no referent and no > basis. > -------------------------------------------------- > A precedent might be ditthi. Wrong view both> > > is and isn't a reality. Same for perception (sa~n~naa) as identity or > > memory. However, I think it is more expedient pathwise to emphasize the > > idea that concept is not reality. Also, I would say that concept and > > reality are always mixed together. > > > > Larry > > > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > 37903 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: Fresher !! Hi Naresh, Welcome to the group. The mind races because it is looking for answers. Start with a simple question, "what does 'I' mean?" Look at this question over and over and see for yourself. Larry 37904 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:33am Subject: Disturbance Dear Dhamma Friends, Have you ever seen a completely calm lake? The surface of the water in any lake is almost always moving with subtle to rough waves. This may be because of wind, insects, birds, frogs, and many of water and land animals. Sometimes the surface does have a completely calm state without any waves. That time is when there is no wind or movement of air, no movement of animals, and no movement of other inanimate objects like dropping of pieces from trees shading above the water surface. Actually that state of calmness is actually not calm. There is a continuous movement in the water and above the water surface at least molecular level. But this is a natural process and apparently the surface is calm and no movement at all. We can see images on that calm surface of the water. But as soon as the water surface is disturbed, images are not clear and if rough waves arise because of heavy disturbance, then there will be no image at all. To see images again, we will have to wait for a long time till the surface of the water is well calm again. Like this, our mind is not still and not calm. So we cannot see any images that reflect back us. If images are to be seen, then the mind has to be well calm and must be undisturbed as still as a stone or a mountain. Even when it apparently still and calm, actually it is not still. It is moving all the time like molecules of water in the lake as I said above. At molecular level, there is a continuous flow of mind. No mind is permanent. There arises one after another. But this molecular level cannot be seen by ordinary unaided eyes. Undisturbed mind are pure, clean, luminous, radiant, shining and give light. But when the mind is disturbed in any way, then the flow become flactuant and waves arise. The water of the lake is inanimate and it can be disturbed at any time. But our mind is not inanimate thing. It is not a physical thing. It is nama dhamma and if we train our mind, there will be less and less disturbance. When totally pure, there will be no disturbance at all. May you all be free from any disturbances. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: When there is a naked flame, heat is there. When the flame is in the mirror, the flame is seen but there is no heat. Kusala and akusala dhammas are flames. Vipaka dhammas are not flame but image in the mirror. 37905 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: Fresher !! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Naresh, > > Welcome to the group. The mind races because it is looking for > answers. Start with a simple question, "what does 'I' mean?" Look at > this question over and over and see for yourself. > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Naresh, Very good advice Larry. It ys short and precise. The Buddha was the first arahat. His 1st 5 disciples all became arahats. There were 6 arahats including The Buddha. 7th arahat was venerable Yassa. Yassa was searched by his father and his followers. The Buddha asked them what they had been looking for. They answered that they are searching for Yassa. The Buddha advised that 'instead of searching anyone else, try to search for your self ( your self )'. This is searching for real dhamma. When investigated, there are just 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates and there is no 'self' at all. With Metta, Htoo Naing 37906 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:44am Subject: Re: Fresher !! Dear Naresh, Welcome to DSG. Please feel free here and make DSG your home. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Hi, > > I am getting numerous mails after ihave joined your > group , i have been ineteracting with one of the > member recently for some guidence. > > Iam a Fresher in gaining some knowledge about > buddhism, im 28 and finding a way out to control this > wild mind , which is never stable coz of this i have > changed many proffesions with not much of sucess, i > tried to find many ways to overcome this problem but > never was permanent solution. > > how to start over it, i have read about concentrating > on breath. > > want some uregent help > > Naresh > > > --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > > > > IV. RECOGNISING > > RIDING FLOW > > > > We have left the past. Do not touch them again. We > > have started treatment of stress and sufferings. > > That treatment is healing Dhamma for heating dhammas > > that are the nature causing us suffer. > > 37907 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 0:29pm Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 06 ) VI. APPARENT TRACK TALENT'S TASK No one is perfect with the only exception of The Buddha. This is because He had already perfected and He had given may many lives for His perfections. Many many body parts had been given through out His various lives. The Buddha is the only talented one and no one including His 2 great disciples is perfectly talented as The Buddha. The Buddha is the Talent. He was talented person. Unlike ordinary talented people, The Buddha was talented in everything. The Buddha had done a special task. He left the track. It is a mind track. But He never said I would leave some track for you directly. But He always preached whenever there were opportunities. This is what The Buddha left as His mind's track. He had passed through specific gateways and he well knew the gates, the Path, approaching paths and all about the track. Those gates are way out to liberation. The Buddha left His mind track through Dhamma preachings. The Buddha started preaching first to His first five disciples. That discourse is called Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. Since then The Buddha had been preaching Dhamma whenever there arose apportunities till He was just about to leaving. In Mahaparinibbana sutta there includes The Buddha's last word. The Buddha's last word is related to His mind's track. The Buddha reminded all His disciples to be mindful and alert on what is happening. Happenings or events are sankharas. The Buddha reminded that these arising and falling away events should be attended. This is actually a teaching on how to recognise the riding flow. But as the last word is a short one, we have to relate with earlier teachings of the time when The Buddha was well and very active. There were many instructions how to remove those clouding mind which otherwise heats up and would deter recognition of flow of events. The Buddha had done the task. He had done and He had been liberated since He eradicated all potentials binding things that otherwise would not release and liberate. There is an apparent track of The Buddha's mind. The Buddha had done as His task. He did extra tasks for beings or sattas. That is leaving of His mind's track. This leaving of His mind track or 'teachings of The Dhamma' have been maintained by thoughtful disciples bhikkhus through the tradition of oral recitation and all teachings have been passed on to later and later generation. The disciples met and compiled what The Buddha taught and they compiled all teachings systematically. There are teachings and these teachings are packed into three basket or three pitaka or tripitaka or Tipitaka. These pitakas are vinayas, suttas, and abhidhamma. All these teachings are the track. As it is the track, we have to trace along the track and we will finally be liberated as The Buddha was liberated. The talent had left the track. He had done His task. What about we? TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37908 From: Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/31/04 1:01:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for misrepresenting you. I don't understand any of your > objections. Even concepts of realities are 100% concept. I thought > this was TG's point and you agreed with it. If I say, "I am angry" > or " "anger just arose", that is three concepts like three ducks in a > row. You can't peek at reality through a concept; you have to use > panna. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: This topic is a tough and confusing one. I agree that concepts of realities are 100% concepts, and I agree with the rest of what you say above. What I have been writing constitutes an examination of memories, percepts, and concepts at a level of drawing fine distinctions. -------------------------------------------- However, knowledge of meaning (attha) is one of the > > discriminating wisdoms (patisambhida panna?). > > As to your other point, agreed a perception (sanna) is real but it is > either an unreal equation (this = that, aka identity) or a memory > which is not real whether what is remembered actually happened or > not. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The memory itself, as opposed to "what is remembered" or what *seems* to be remembered, is either an actual mind-door object or a sequence of such. If I just experienced hardness and now remember that, the memory is of that just-experienced hardness. The memory is a real mind-door object, and its referent is that past, real, body-door object. On the other hand, if I remember a tree in the back yard of my childhood home, the memory is also a real mind-door object (or a sequence of such), but without a real referent - just a conventional one based on a collection of past experiences. Such a memory is very close to being a concept, idea, or story. ---------------------------------------- The memory of nutriment is not nutriment (the rupa). This is > > where the metaphor "shadows of (ultimate) things" applies. It doesn't > matter whether the "thing" is ultimate or not. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No disagreement on this. The memory of a rupa is not a rupa. -------------------------------------- It is still a concept > > though it would be true to say perception and view (ditthi) are both > real and not real like an error is a real error, even if we get the > name and meaning right. > ------------------------------------- Howard: A memory is *like* a percept and *like* a concept, but I do not think that memories, percepts, and concepts are the same. ---------------------------------------- Even though reality and concept are mixed > > together they are distinctly different, at least according to > Theravada abhidhamma. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Everything that arises in consciousness is an experiential reality, just by virtue of being content of consciousness. What allegedly lies behind such is another matter, and that determines the finer status of the experiential reality in question. --------------------------------------- Taking concept for reality is the principle > > mistake that leads to suffering but I don't think that means we have > to try to focus exclusively on reality. In any case it would be > impossible. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what one means by 'concept'. I think that many folks here conflate differing senses of that word, and in doing so create debates that consistently lack resolution. It is important, I believe, to be very clear on what one means by 'concept'. Without a clear and precise definition we cannot get anywhere with this topic. ------------------------------------------ > > > Larry > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37909 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Anthony, I looked at a few posts and they are really good. Thanks a lot - much appreciated. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Rob M, > > I lead a discussion list on the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. > Here are some materials that may be appropriate for young people: > > Right View: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2905 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2952 > > Right Intention: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2958 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2910 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2957 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2956 > > Right Speech: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2966 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2967 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2968 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2969 > > Right Action: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2954 > > Right Livelihood: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2868 > > Right Effort: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2901 > > Right Mindfulness: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/3013 > > Right Concentration: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/3014 > > with metta / Antony. 37910 From: plnao Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fresher !! Hello Naresh Welcome to the group. > Iam a Fresher in gaining some knowledge about > buddhism, im 28 and finding a way out to control this > wild mind I am just a beginner compared to other people who can give you advice here, but this idea of controlling the mind is a bit dangerous in my opinion. In the Dhammapada (a collection of teachings in verse form) The Buddha compares the mind to a fish flopping around, slippery and evasive, difficult to tame. Eventually, through many many lifetimes, wisdom develops, and the mind becomes tame, the flopping fish quiets down, but it is a long way. (The verse in Dhammapada doesn't say this - it is my interpretation.) So perhaps wisdom is accepting that the mind can't be contolled soon by people who are not yet enlightened.. But what we *can* do is become more detached from the workings of the mind. We can learn to see these mental moments (some of them unwholesome and troubling, some of them seemingly wholesome) that come and go as impermanent. That's fairly easy to do. We can see the way they come and go beyond our control. Then we can know that whatever is impermanent cannot be satisfactory in a lasting way. It is dukhha. Do we want to take what is impermanent and dukkha to be our self, to be what we are? No. So we come to see that these mental moments are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. At first this is all very intellectual. But in my opinion even thinking about detachment can lead to a kind of detachment! Gradually, the detachment becomes more real, deeper. We are liberated from obsessing about our thoughts, from identifying with them. They still race around beyond our control at times, but they are no longer "me." It's very liberating. I recommend Nina Van Gorkom's "Buddhism in Daily Life" or "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" for an appreciation of how studying Abhidhamma helps us gain this detachment. (Links are available in the group files.) Metta Phil 37911 From: plnao Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi Rob > I have accepted an invitation to deliver a 90 minute Dhamma talk on > the Noble Eightfold Path to a group of about 50 samaneras and > upasakas between the ages 12-18 as part of their week-long Novitiate > Program. I have a couple of weeks to prepare. I feel mudita for the richness of your Dhamma life - giving these talks, faving monks to your house for gatherings. I am all on my own in that sense here, but I can gain kusala from hearing about your kusala. I thought about this 8FP talk a bit, but couldn't come up with many ideas. I did think about stuff that you already would have thought of - stressing that the path isn't a path with a beginning and end that we go through and get to the end of like a board game (it's easy to think of it that way) but more like a 8 spoked wheel that is always spinning due to our kamma. Maybe you could do something visual to get that across. Personally, I think there is no doubt whatsoever that there are different degree of right view, etc, though this was debated here. It seems very clear to me that there is conceptual right view and something more direct and real. Would you approach it this way? It's something to think about, I think. To stresss that the factors can be understood intellectually, and we can benefit from this in our daily life, but it is still a far way from experiencing them directly when they arise as "path moments." at the different stages of enlightenment. I also thought it might be good for you to put the students in groups and get them to brainstorm what they think of would be "right action" and so on before teaching them the conventional descriptions. That would emphasize the self-reliance aspect of Buddhism, the importance of gradually figuring things out for ourselves, in the light of the Buddha's teaching, of course. Try to get away from their thinking that the list of factors is carved in stone like the Ten Commandments. It is more subtle than that. Please let us know how it goes! Metta Phil 37912 From: Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi Howard, I think we are at odds on how to get at reality. I would say a finger pointing to reality is a finger pointing to a concept of reality. Also, I suspect memory is one manifestation of meaning (attha). But I agree we could definitely use a fuller study of concept. Larry 37913 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fresher !! Dear Larry Thanx for your reply !! So where do i start in actaul , is there a practical training required, its very confusing to understand the characteristics of mind, the more i think the more it becomes cloudy & coudnt see clearly, iam finding answers to all this so i can live happily which iam not at present Naresh !! --- Larry wrote: > > > Hi Naresh, > > Welcome to the group. The mind races because it is > looking for > answers. Start with a simple question, "what does > 'I' mean?" Look at > this question over and over and see for yourself. 37914 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fresher !! Dear Htoo Naing Thanx for reply , where do i start from to find this self which is very confusing. Naresh --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Dear Naresh, > > Welcome to DSG. Please feel free here and make DSG > your home. 37915 From: Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Vism.XIV,112 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 112. When, through the influence of the profitable of the fine-material sphere (9)-(13) and the immaterial sphere (14)-(17), beings are reborn [respectively] in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, then the nine kinds of fine-material (57)-(61) and immaterial (62)-(65) resultant occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object only the sign of kamma that has appeared at the time of dying.43 ------------------------ Note 43. ' "The sign of kamma" here is only the kamma's own object consisting of an earth kasina, etc.' (Pm.478). 37916 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disturbance Dear Htoo Naing How to make this mind as a stone or mountain withno disturbance et all. Naresh --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Have you ever seen a completely calm lake? The > surface of the water > in any lake is almost always moving with subtle to > rough waves. This > may be because of wind, insects, birds, frogs, and > many of water and > land animals. > 37917 From: Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/31/04 7:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think we are at odds on how to get at reality. I would say a finger > pointing to reality is a finger pointing to a concept of reality. Also, > I suspect memory is one manifestation of meaning (attha). But I agree we > could definitely use a fuller study of concept. > > Larry > ========================= At the time we experience hardness (or visual object, etc) there is no pointing finger. The hardness is there - it is the experience that is present. When recognition follows, the object of consciousness is no longer the hardness, but the hardness-percept, a sa~n~nic construct, and that percept is a pointing finger, with the hardness being its referent. This involves one degree of indirection. When we remember an experience of hardness, the memory is the object of consciousness, and it, itself, is a finger pointing, not at the original hardness, but at the hardness-percept. Thus there is an extra degree if indirection involved. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37918 From: Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fresher !! Hi Naresh, Try this. Look at your face in a mirror. Is that face 'I'? You decide. In order to benefit from this exercise you have to make it a serious question so the answer will make a difference. This is difficult. You have to be very honest and straight and simple. Only a mature mind can do it fully and completely. But don't be discouraged if you don't get immediate results. Just go slow, keep your eyes open, and keep at it little by little. In the mean time there is plenty of other stuff to learn which Htoo and the other members would be better at explaining. Larry ----------------------------- N: "Dear Larry Thanx for your reply !! So where do i start in actaul , is there a practical training required, its very confusing to understand the characteristics of mind, the more i think the more it becomes cloudy & coudnt see clearly, iam finding answers to all this so i can live happily which iam not at present Naresh !!" 37919 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:16pm Subject: Pannatta vs Paramattha Dear DN, Rob K, Sarah and Group, Thanks DN for your wonderful post from Mahasi Sayadaw about paramattha and pannatti. I like the quote: "There are people who can see the light of the dhamma by pa~n~natta means of instruction as well as those who get enlightened by paramattha means." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/message/37871 I hope your post makes it into the Useful Posts file section! I am keenly awaiting Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anguttara Nikaya. He wrote in the Introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya: "In AN, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and freedom from suffering." Thanks again / Antony. 37920 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: Pannatta and Paramattha Dear Group, I should have wrote "and Paramattha" rather than "vs Paramattha". My pannatta bias leaked out! Apologies / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear DN, Rob K, Sarah and Group, > > Thanks DN for your wonderful post from Mahasi Sayadaw about > paramattha and pannatti. > > I like the quote: > > "There are > people who can see the light of the dhamma by pa~n~natta > means of instruction as well as those who get enlightened by > paramattha means." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/message/37871 > > I hope your post makes it into the Useful Posts file section! > > I am keenly awaiting Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anguttara Nikaya. > > He wrote in the Introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya: > "In AN, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of > aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers > of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and > freedom from suffering." > > Thanks again / Antony. 37921 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:29pm Subject: Re: Pannatta and Paramattha Dear Group, Here is the correct link to DN's Mahasi Sayadaw quote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37871 May you be well and happy, Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear DN, Rob K, Sarah and Group, > > Thanks DN for your wonderful post from Mahasi Sayadaw about > paramattha and pannatti. > > I like the quote: > > "There are > people who can see the light of the dhamma by pa~n~natta > means of instruction as well as those who get enlightened by > paramattha means." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37871 > I hope your post makes it into the Useful Posts file section! > > I am keenly awaiting Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anguttara Nikaya. > > He wrote in the Introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya: > "In AN, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of > aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers > of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and > freedom from suffering." > > Thanks again / Antony. 37922 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 9:50:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > ========================= > I'm using the word 'referent' as an ordinary-language word, Robert, > and not something translated from the Pali, though perhaps there is such a term > there. I understand memories, percepts, and concepts to be mental objects, > each one of which is a mental construct via sa~n~na and/or sankhara. _________________ Dear Howard, I feel like the boy who asks a question that the whole class has known the answer to since the beginning of the term. Obviously you, Kenh, dighanaka and larry are well at home talking about referents and percepts but these are just not words I ever use. They might have come into ordinary daily usage but as I have been living in Asia for over a decade I am not familiar with them. Anyway I will bow out of these discussions, I like to learn more about what the texts say about pannati (concept) and reality. Robertk 37923 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 0:07am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hello DN, Thanks for Mahasi Sayadaw's lecture. I agree with the Sayadaw regarding the superiority in some cases, of conventional expressions of dhamma. Though even in these cases, I would think that sometimes it depends on the listener, how much understanding he or she has about ultimate realities. It does seem however, that the Sayadaw acknowledges that ultimately whatever is said, paramattha dhamma are being referred to, no? But in any case, is this even an issue? Does anyone here deny the usefulness and application of the Teachings in conventional terms? I think the Sayadaw is addressing more the misapplication of the knowledge of Abhidhamma. And this may be a problem he faced directly in real life experience, perhaps in Myanmar? Or it may be rooted to some degree in his `doing' or `proactive' approach to dhamma? From my perspective the question of choice between stating in paramattha terms vs. conventional designation, should not even arise. Why does one have to `choose' between one way of saying things from the other. Is it a reflection of panna which stops to consider the better way of stating facts? Abhidhamma is about understanding the moment, not about *using* any knowledge and projecting that onto experiences. This is the world of a difference between seeing the Teachings as prescriptive on one hand and descriptive on another. The same difference between `doing' and `understanding', control and no control. In the one there is what I believe genuine `practice' conditioned from time to time, but the other, though they "believe" in practice, little positive seem to happen as far as understanding the moment is concerned. Now to the point of the original post, namely, did the Buddha in some particular case, specifically in his teachings on Dana, prefer ordinary kusala over vipassana? Here too it seems that the Venerable is making an unnecessary distinction in his lecture. It is part of correct Abhidhamma understanding that a moment of dana, metta, karuna for example, the object of citta is a being or person. It is also correct understanding that Dana and metta are parami and that without the accumulation of these, panna cannot be developed to the full, and all along the path, these help and support each other. On the other hand it would be wrong understanding to even think about trying to change the object of citta from `beings' to `the characteristic of dhammas'. This is from a wrong idea of `self and control' and the result would be neither the kusala of Dana nor any kusala thinking, but distorted view. However for the Venerable to go on and say to the effect, that one should *avoid* satipatthana in order so that Dana can be most effective is I think equally wrong. I think it is in the Dhammapadda where the Buddha states that "a hundred years of metta if not as good one single moment of insight". I know that this may be referred to vipassana and not ordinary satipatthana. However it does point to the superiority and preferability of knowing dhammas, no? The Venerable would in my opinion not see this problem had he not separated the practice of satipatthana from daily life into formalized practice. As Ken O has said, that Dana has arisen already and that it is conditioned and if there is any rejoice later, this too would be conditioned. The important thing is that *all this can happen interspersed with satipatthana if the attitude is correct*. Sorry for the abrupt ending, need to go out somewhere. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > > Hello All. > > Here is a lengthier treatment of the same subject in Mahasi > Sayadaw's lectures on the Bhaara Sutta. Particularly worthy > of attention are his remarks at the end about the "semblance > of vipassanaa." > > http://www.mahasi.org.mm/pdf/E04pdf.PDF > > PA~N~NATTA AND PARAMATTHA > > There are two methods of instruction in Buddha's teachings, > namely, the paramattha desanaa and the pa~n~nattha desanaa, > the former being concerned with abstract knowledge while the > latter with ordinary or conventional knowledge appealing to 37924 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Hi James, Thanks for your message, and my apologies for the delay, I've had a few busy days. ---------------------- J: > I believe that you are suffering from a distorted view. It is not true that there are "only dhammas" and that nothing else matters. > ----------------------- That is not the view I was suffering from. I made no suggestion that people, politics, causes and ideas, didn't matter. In a moment when nama or rupa, is being wisely considered, there is no thought of something else. However, when consciousness does entertain a thought of something else (people or other concepts) it remains important that there is kindness rather than unkindness, detachment rather than attachment and wisdom rather than ignorance. ----------------------- J: > I came across a relevant chapter in the Autobiography of Ajahn Tate that possibly points to the cause for such a view. Interestingly enough, it is meditation without the proper amount of wisdom ------------------------ When you and A. Tate refer to 'meditation' are you referring exclusively to kusala consciousness? If so, I think you are wrong in seeing it as the cause of distorted view. It might be misinterpreted later in a distorted way, but that's another matter. --------------------- J: > (probably the birth chamber of the Abhidhamma as well?): ---------------------- I think you are making a joke, but, sorry, I don't know what you mean. ------------ J: > 20.1 A Distorted View Arises I exerted myself in meditation to the extreme limit of my ability, until a misguided and distorted view (Vipallaasa) arose: ------------ As I suspected, A. Tate is talking about akusala meditation. Let that be a lesson to you! :-) ---------------------- A.T: > 'There is no Lord Buddha, no Sangha. There is only the Dhamma. This is because the Lord Buddha or, in other words, the 'Prince Siddhatthakumaara' only became the Lord Buddha through knowing the Dhamma. Even the Lord Buddha himself was only ruupa- dhamma and naama-dhamma.[132] The Sangha is the same, for they all, whether enlightened noble disciples or unenlightened ordinary disciples, are sustained by Dhamma. Their physical form is but ruupa- dhamma and naama-dhamma'. > ----------------------- Can you see anything wrong with that on an intellectual level? It sounds OK to me! -------------- A.T: > This was my rock certain opinion. I was absolutely convinced it was true. -------------- Hmm. Do you see the problem sneaking in? He saw it as "MY" rock certain opinion, not as "the Buddha's or the ariyans'" rock certain opinion. Who did he think he was kidding? ----------------- A.T: > But Ven. Ajahn Sahn sent someone to invite me to come down to receive some offerings and gifts from the lay people. I was in two minds whether or not I should go. However, I then remembered the state of my lower robe. I had already been using it for three years and it might not last through the next Rains Retreat, so I decided to go. Accepting his invitation, I went to renew my robes so that my requisites would be complete and I could then return. On going down they offered me all the things I required and that distorted view seemed completely to disappear of itself." --------------- He had grasped the Dhamma in an unskilful way, which is like grasping a snake in an unskilful way. I'm glad he came to his senses before any serious harm was done. Kind regards, Ken H 37925 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Dear Sukin and Antony, You explain it well Sukin. The quote from?@the sayadaw says "Here, those who do not know Buddha's methodology in teaching the dhamma conceived that paramatta desanaa is better and therefore, send their good wishes not to the individual, but to the khandhas. It must be remembered that in practising Brahmacariya, not only the generic term, all beings or sabbe sattaa, is used but also the specific term, all men or sabbe purisaa, all women or sabbe itthiyo, etc., is used. In sending love and kind regards to others one has to direct his mind or attention to recipients as individuals, and not to their mind and matter" This is certainly explained throughout the Abhidhamma. Metta takes as an object only a concpet of a being, not nama or rupa. I haven't heard of this idea of sending metta to the khandhas before but perhaps it occurs in Burma and the Sayadaw was pointing out the error. Then again of course, when giving or having a being as object of metta it does not mean that there should not also be understanding that teh object is a concept. The cariyapitaka attahkattha explains: http://abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm#, the bodhisattva-aspirant should reflect: Attachment to external objects is like the bathing of an elephant; therefore you should not be attached to anything. .. when I have undertaken to exert myself for the welfare of all the world, I should not arouse even the subtlest wrong thought over this wretched, ungrateful, impure body, which I have entrusted to the service of others. And besides, what distinction can be made between the internal material elements (of the body) and the external material elements (of the world)? They are both subject to inevitable breaking-up, dispersal, and dissolution. This is only confused prattle, the adherence to this body as `This is mine, this am I, this is my self.' I should have no more concern over my own hands, feet, eyes, and flesh than over external things."" Thus indeed understanding that there is only khandas arising and falling is a great support for giving and metta. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > > Hello DN, > > Thanks for Mahasi Sayadaw's lecture. > > I agree with the Sayadaw regarding the superiority in some cases, of > conventional expressions of dhamma. Though even in these cases, I > would think that sometimes it depends on the listener, how much > understanding he or she has about ultimate realities. It does seem > however, that the Sayadaw acknowledges that ultimately whatever is > said, paramattha dhamma are being referred to, no? But in any case, > is this even an issue? Does anyone here deny the usefulness and > application of the Teachings in conventional terms? > > I think the Sayadaw is addressing more the misapplication of the > knowledge of Abhidhamma. And this may be a problem he faced directly > in real life experience, perhaps in Myanmar? Or it may be rooted to > some degree in his `doing' or `proactive' approach to dhamma? From > my perspective the question of choice between stating in paramattha > terms vs. conventional designation, should not even arise. Why does > one have to `choose' between one way of saying things from the > other. Is it a reflection of panna which stops to consider the > better way of stating facts? > > Abhidhamma is about understanding the moment, not about *using* any > knowledge and projecting that onto experiences. This is the world of > a difference between seeing the Teachings as prescriptive on one > hand and descriptive on another. The same difference between `doing' > and `understanding', control and no control. In the one there is > what I believe genuine `practice' conditioned from time to time, but > the other, though they "believe" in practice, little positive seem > to happen as far as understanding the moment is concerned. > > Now to the point of the original post, namely, did the Buddha in > some particular case, specifically in his teachings on Dana, prefer > ordinary kusala over vipassana? Here too it seems that the Venerable > is making an unnecessary distinction in his lecture. It is part of > correct Abhidhamma understanding that a moment of dana, metta, > karuna for example, the object of citta is a being or person. It is > also correct understanding that Dana and metta are parami and that > without the accumulation of these, panna cannot be developed to the > full, and all along the path, these help and support each other. On > the other hand it would be wrong understanding to even think about > trying to change the object of citta from `beings' to `the > characteristic of dhammas'. This is from a wrong idea of `self and > control' and the result would be neither the kusala of Dana nor any > kusala thinking, but distorted view. However for the Venerable to go > on and say to the effect, that one should *avoid* satipatthana in > order so that Dana can be most effective is I think equally wrong. I > think it is in the Dhammapadda where the Buddha states that "a > hundred years of metta if not as good one single moment of insight". > I know that this may be referred to vipassana and not ordinary > satipatthana. However it does point to the superiority and > preferability of knowing dhammas, no? The Venerable would in my > opinion not see this problem had he not separated the practice of > satipatthana from daily life into formalized practice. As Ken O has > said, that Dana has arisen already and that it is conditioned and if > there is any rejoice later, this too would be conditioned. The > important thing is that *all this can happen interspersed with > satipatthana if the attitude is correct*. > > Sorry for the abrupt ending, need to go out somewhere. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" > wrote: > > > > Hello All. > > > > Here is a lengthier treatment of the same subject in Mahasi > > Sayadaw's lectures on the Bhaara Sutta. Particularly worthy > > of attention are his remarks at the end about the "semblance > > of vipassanaa." > > > > http://www.mahasi.org.mm/pdf/E04pdf.PDF > > > > PA~N~NATTA AND PARAMATTHA > > > > There are two methods of instruction in Buddha's teachings, > > namely, the paramattha desanaa and the pa~n~nattha desanaa, > > the former being concerned with abstract knowledge while the > > latter with ordinary or conventional knowledge appealing to 37926 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 4:33am Subject: Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha Dear Dhamma Friend, When referring to self as a Buddhist, we have to understand what kamma means and its implications. This is the only area that no other religions touch or believe. Instead, they appoint someone who never exists in this universe as God or creator. Whenever they cannot explain something they will believe that it is done by God or creator. When we read this message, it is us who read and no one is reading including their appointed God. We stretch out our hand from bent posture and again bend from stretched out posture and these are done by ourselves and no God involves at all. We breathe in and out. God is doing nothing in our breath. Can you control your breath? You will say yes. But when you stop your breathing for some seconds, there have already arisen consciousness that stop breathing before you actually stop it. Does God stop your breathing? Does Ala stop your breathing? Does Jesus stop your breathing? Does The Buddha stop your breathing? No one stops your breathing but you yourselves. Again, when deeply investigated, there is no you or yourselves at all. Just before stoppage of breathing, there have already arisen consciousness that will stop breathing. Those consciousness are actually creating kamma as long as moha or avijja and tanha or craving are still not eradicated. Kamma is a complicated thing and there are different classification of kamma depending on causative power, timing of giving its effect, seniority of the power that will give effect in the next life, the bhumis to which kamma will send beings. Kamma is cetana or volition that arises with each consciousness. New kamma generation is stopped at and after eradication of all kilesas or defilements. Kamma is potentials and it is like seeds. Seeds give rise to plants when there are conditions that will help plantation. As kamma is related to cetana which is a nama dhamma, kamma are said to be the matter of beings. Those who appoint someone as a creator or God do so because they cannot explain what they experience or encounter. Actually there are 5 niyamas or natural laws that govern everything imaginable. These laws are natural laws and no one created these laws. No Buddhas write these laws. But all Sammasambuddha do preach. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Any queries are welcome online or offline. htootintnaing@y... can be contacted. Or you can join the Group 'JourneyToNibbana' and ask questions. 37927 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: Phil: intelligent act of dana Friend Ken H., LOL! You missed the entire point of my post! You took it apart, examined little pieces, and then came to silly conclusions regarding those pieces. Try looking at the whole post and don't automatically try to dissect it looking for ways to twist the meaning around. The point is that an `absolute reality' view of the world, while excluding conventional reality, is a distorted view. Ken H.: That is not the view I was suffering from. I made no suggestion that > people, politics, causes and ideas, didn't matter. In a moment when > nama or rupa, is being wisely considered, there is no thought of > something else. However, when consciousness does entertain a thought > of something else (people or other concepts) it remains important > that there is kindness rather than unkindness, detachment rather > than attachment and wisdom rather than ignorance. James: This is a very slippery, non-answer. I think I know what you are getting at but you seem to be hedging your bets. Ken H.: Hmm. Do you see the problem sneaking in? He saw it as "MY" rock certain opinion, not as "the Buddha's or the ariyans'" rock certain opinion. Who did he think he was kidding? James: LOL! That was not the problem! Geez! The problem was that he rejected conventional reality even though the Buddha usually taught in terms of conventional reality (BTW, the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma…I suggest you repeat that to yourself every morning and night fifty times until you start to get it! ;-) Ken H.: He had grasped the Dhamma in an unskilful way, which is like grasping a snake in an unskilful way. I'm glad he came to his senses before any serious harm was done. James: Yes, I'm glad that he came to his sense also. Now, when are you going to?? Really, I only tell you this for your benefit. It pains me to see you trapped in this `Buddhist Twilight Zone' where you have put yourself. Metta, James ps. I predict that you are going to respond with another post twisting this one all around also. I won't respond to that one. I will let you have the last word. 37928 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 4:49am Subject: Definition of Anatta Dear Friends,  I recently came across this definition of Anatta which I like very much. Just thought I would share: The Meaning of Anattaa[237] Anything fashioned by conditions, whether physical or mental, is called a sa.nkhaara. All sa.nkhaaras are unsteady and inconstant (anicca.m) because they are continually moving and changing about. All sa.nkhaaras are incapable of maintaining a lasting oneness: This is why they are said to be stressful (dukkha.m). No sa.nkhaaras lie under anyone's control. They keep changing continually, and no one can prevent them from doing so, which is why they are said to be not- self (anattaa). All things, whether mental or physical, if they have these characteristics by nature, are said to be not-self. Even the quality of deathlessness -- which is a quality or phenomenon free from fashioning conditions, and which is the only thing in a state of lasting oneness -- is also said to be not-self, because it lies above and beyond everything else. No one can think it or pull it under his or her control. Only those of right view, whose conduct lies within the factors of the path, can enter in to see this natural quality and remove their attachments to all things -- including their attachment to the agent that goes about knowing those things. In the end, there is no agent attaining or getting anything. However natural phenomena behave, that is how they simply keep on behaving at all times. When meditators practice correctly and have the discernment to see that quality (of deathlessness) as it really is, the result is that they can withdraw their attachments from all things -- including their attachment to the discernment that enters in to see the quality as it really is. The practice of all things good and noble is to reach this very point. Ven. Phra Ajahn Tate Desarangsee Metta, James 37929 From: Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/1/04 12:10:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I feel like the boy who asks a question that the whole class has > known the answer to since the beginning of the term. > Obviously you, Kenh, dighanaka and larry are well at home talking > about referents and percepts but these are just not words I ever use. > They might have come into ordinary daily usage but as I have been > living in Asia for over a decade I am not familiar with them. > Anyway I will bow out of these discussions, I like to learn more > about what the texts say about pannati (concept) and reality. > Robertk > ========================= My apologies, Robert - sincerely. As I think about it, I realize that I come from a background of years of study and work in mathematics, mathematical logic, and formal linguistics, and that notions that are almost 2nd nature to me are not so to almost all other folks. This is seriously shortsighted on my part. As I consider it now, getting bogged down in all the fine nuances of these various ideas amounts to "getting stuck in the mind" and probably has little or no value in helping us follow the crux of theory and practice of the Dhamma. It likely amounts to little more than an intellectual game or pastime! In fact, it may even provide a substitute, ersatz Dhamma that hides the true Dhamma. As far as the concept vs reality business is concerned, I guess that all we truly need to know is that there is a real difference between what is actually experienced and what alleged things/events we name, think about, and communicate. What we actually experience is unnamed and directly encountered, but what is named, thought about, and communicated is either only imagined to some degree or other, or is apprehended with some lesser or greater degree of indirection. Knowing through name, thought, and communication is always partial, limited, and at-a-distance, and is a poor substitute for knowing directly, face to face, especially when wisdom is operative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37930 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Disturbance --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: Dear Htoo Naing How to make this mind as a stone or mountain withno disturbance et all. Naresh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Naresh, This is very easy to answer. But it will be hard to do. When you do jhana samapatti, that mind is being a stone, being a mountain as long as jhana is maintained. DNAs can be stored. Biological materials can also be stored with appropriate conditioning. The mind can be thrown into a frozen state called jhana. But unlike frozening of physical materials, jhanas are fully conscious to their object. Actually it is not frozen. But it is frozen to prevent staleness from contamination with defilements. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Have you ever seen a completely calm lake? The > > surface of the water > > in any lake is almost always moving with subtle to > > rough waves. This > > may be because of wind, insects, birds, frogs, and > > many of water and > > land animals. > > 37931 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fresher !! Dear Naresh, Well, you can start at any point. You can well start with learning of text materials regarding self and non-self matter. There are online materials as well as hard copies. Do not confuse yourself. Try to find any of your selves inside of you. For example 'breath'. Do you not breathe in and out by coupling? No one is breathing in and breathing in and in. And out and out and out. But everyone is coupling. Try to find any self when you breathe. Is it 'you' when you breathe in? Is it 'you' when you breathe out? Is it 'you' when you stop breathing? Actually before each act, there have already arisen dhamma called consciousness or cittas with associated mental factors. These mental faculties are interacting with rupa or material things. When you found any self of yours please let me and the whole group know about that you found 'yourself'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Dear Htoo Naing > > Thanx for reply , where do i start from to find this > self which is very confusing. > > Naresh > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Naresh, > > > > Welcome to DSG. Please feel free here and make DSG > > your home. 37932 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 6:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 102 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have discussed many things about cittas or consciousness or mental states or mind-states. Different classifications were discussed. After that we discussed on mental factors called cetasikas. There are 52 cetasikas and each does have their own characteristic. So they are separate dhamma ( nature ). Among 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors, we have discussed on 7 universal mental factors which always arise with each and every kind of cittas. After that we discussed on 6 particular mental factors called pakinnaka cetasikas. The 7 universal mental factors and and 6 particular mental factors altogether 13 mental factors are called annasamana cetasikas. Anna means 'to deal with' and samana means 'to agree' 'equal to'. Annasamana means literally 'flexible' that is they will agree with anything that they are accompanied by. When accompanying dhamma are akusala, they will become akusala and when kusala they will be kusala and still if abyakata like kiriya they will still be abyakata dhamma. After flexible ministers of the great king citta have been discussed, we discussed on the destructive ministers of the king citta. That is akusala cetasikas. There are 14 akusala cetasikas and they are preached in various suttas. Among 14 akusala cetasikas, we have discussed on 4 moha-rooted cetasikas called 1. moha, 2. ahirika, 3. anottappa, and 4. uddhacca. Moha is the king of akusala and he has two great disciples called ahirika who is the right wing and anottappa who is the left wing of the akusala king moha. Moha has a secretary called uddhacca. All these 4 cetasikas work together. Whenever akusala cittas arise whatever they are moha or lobha or dosa, these 4 cetasikas do arise. Lobha is also like a king and he has 2 queens called mana and ditthi. Lobha never arises with both of these 2 queens. That means mana and ditthi never arise together in a single citta at the same moment even though they can arise one vithi vara after another with the interposition with bhavanga cittas. Dosa behaves like a king. Unlike other 2 root dhamma called moha and lobha, dosa cetasika while behaving like a king has three queens. These three queens are 2 twins sisters called issa and macchariya and their younger sister queen called kukkucca. All queens agree with the king dosa. Dosa may arises without any of these queens. But dosa cannot arise with 2 or 3 queens at the same time. 4 moha related cetasikas, 3 lobha related cetasikas, and 4 dosa related cetasikas are all destructive ministers of the great king citta. There are 14 akusala cetasikas. There left 3 cetasikas. They are thina or sloth, middha or torpor, and vicikiccha or indecisiveness or doubt or suspicion. These three dhamma will be discussed in the coming post. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37933 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 7:02am Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 07 ) VII. TALENT'S JOURNEY CERTAINTY There is no wavering things regarding the mind track that has been left by The Buddha. The only problem is that different people have different accumulations, different backgrounds, and many different qualities that may affect finding the track. The Talent said that it is certain that if the jouney is taken as described by The Buddha, there is no way to deviate from the right track and the journey is a certainty as He Himself has passed long time ago when He was under the Bo tree on His 35th birthday, a full moon day when the sun was in Taurus sign of 12 signs of a year. It is quite apparent that if the journey is taken as The Buddha did, there will be no one who will not attain liberation from binding of fetters. The journey is a certainty and it is already granted that if the track is followed, anyone who follows the track will attain liberation. The problem is that what is that journey. That journey is the mind track of The Buddha. From the start we have seen what our mind track is like. When the mind is studied, it is not a single thing. But the mind is an army of mental bodies who are all led by the head or leader called citta. We did have our past. If you do not believe past lives, at least there are past events in this very life. But all these past events have left far away. It will not be beneficial if we dig the past especially if the past events were those of unwholesome events. Then we left the past and we started treating our suffering mind. The medicine is healing dhamma. As there are events arising one after another, they are like a continous flow of a river. We are actually riding on the flow of events. The problem is that we did not recognize that we are riding on the flow of these events. So it sounds like we travel back to the past when we think of the past. And it sounds like that we travel to the future when we think about the future or when we plan for our future. Actually there is no past or future if we are at the present all the time. We we talk about the present then there comparatively seem to exist the past and the future. When we recognize the flow and that we are riding the flow then we are at the present. But to achieve this stage is quite hard. But once you have achieved recognition that you are riding the folw of events and you know that you are riding, then you will clear that there are no ' we ' at all. The Talent, The Buddha had left the track and He had done all his jobs. The first was passing Himself through the Path. He recognized that and then He did other tasks like preaching of his mind's track to His first 5 disciples and then to general public who were suited to be preached or who were ripe at that time. The Buddha did leave His mind track as His teaching. If that is followed, it is cetain that we will one day be liberated. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37934 From: ashkenn2k Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi Rob I think Right understanding or right view of the dhamma is a good subject of talk. When I was in teenager and people start telling me that sense pleasure is dukkha, my first inital reaction was, how come Buddhism is so pessimistic. Be prepare for questions like God, Creater, begining, self view, what is Anatta, how do we develop understanding of Anatta. Maybe a right understanding on cravings, clingings will help one to understand when one meet departure of love ones etc. Again I think if possible a brief note on the silas will be good but I think be prepared for questions like sexual misconduct, smoking or drinking is it against the precepts. I think how sila play a part in lay life maybe citing examples from the those suttas that describe how one conduct oneself in lay life, i think there is sutta about praying to the six directions. Then how does sila increase one wealth's through right action and right livelihood, increase one's popularity and respect through right speech and right thought. Then right mindfullness and right concentration to improve one emotional intelligence :) Just my thoughts Ken O 37935 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > I also thought it might be good for you to put the students in groups and > get them to brainstorm what they think of would be "right action" and so > on before teaching them the conventional descriptions. That would > emphasize the self-reliance aspect of Buddhism, the importance of > gradually figuring things out for ourselves, in the light of the Buddha's > teaching, > of course. Try to get away from their thinking that the list of factors is > carved > in stone like the Ten Commandments. It is more subtle than that. Interesting concept - turning a lecture into a mini-workshop. Let me think how the logistics might work. Metta, Rob M :-) 37936 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > I think Right understanding or right view of the dhamma is a good > subject of talk. When I was in teenager and people start telling me > that sense pleasure is dukkha, my first inital reaction was, how come > Buddhism is so pessimistic. Be prepare for questions like God, > Creater, begining, self view, what is Anatta, how do we develop > understanding of Anatta. Maybe a right understanding on cravings, > clingings will help one to understand when one meet departure of love > ones etc. > > Again I think if possible a brief note on the silas will be good but > I think be prepared for questions like sexual misconduct, smoking or > drinking is it against the precepts. I think how sila play a part in > lay life maybe citing examples from the those suttas that describe > how one conduct oneself in lay life, i think there is sutta about > praying to the six directions. Then how does sila increase one > wealth's through right action and right livelihood, increase one's > popularity and respect through right speech and right thought. > > Then right mindfullness and right concentration to improve one > emotional intelligence :) The audience will all have their heads shaved and be spending a week living as a monk / nun. The talk will take place in a temple. Given this background, I doubt that there will be too many tough questions on sexual misconduct :-), but I will make sure that I am prepared, just in case. You have some good suggestions. I am looking forward to this talk. I plan to invite my kids (aged 12 and 14) to attend as well. Metta, Rob M :-) 37937 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hey Rob, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have accepted an invitation to deliver a 90 minute Dhamma talk on > the Noble Eightfold Path to a group of about 50 samaneras and > upasakas between the ages 12-18 as part of their week-long Novitiate > Program. I have a couple of weeks to prepare. > > I would like to give my friends on DSG a chance to accrue merit by > helping me with ideas. Clearly, given the age group, my approach > must be less academic and more anecdotal to keep up the kids' > interest level. > > Please share stories or analogies that I can insert to drive home > the salient points. Please point me to any articles on this subject > aimed at youth readers. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) I think for kids that age, it will revolve around what is in it for them. I think starting with sila may be good. But not the do's and dont's but trying to awaken in them a sense of conscience. There are a few suttas I remember that do this. The theme being if I take care of myself I take care of society. I think there is a sutta where a queen or some rich lady lays down a very rich head dress made of jewels and goes to hear the Buddha talk. She & her attendants forget the jewels but no one takes them. Ananda finds them and keeps them safe for her. The other sutta is about two acrobats. A young girl and an older man. The older man says we will watch and take care of each other as we perform, the younger girl says no, we should watch and take of ourselves and in this way we safeguard the other. I think the Buddha or an Arahant conquers with the young girl. By keeping the 5 moral precepts, we protect ourselves and protect our society. If everyone did this, there would be no need to lock the door or safeguard ones belongings etc. Trying to get the kids to see this would be a good way to help awaken and strengthen their sense of conscience. They can help to change their own environment where goodwill and friendship, etc. flourish. PEACE E 37938 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pannatta vs Paramattha Hi Antony, and all > "There are > people who can see the light of the dhamma by pa~n~natta > means of instruction as well as those who get enlightened by > paramattha means." This is a good thing to remember. But then we can wonder if "see the light" and achieve liberation are the same thing! Personally, I find that reading something like Dhammapada or the suttas I know from AN *do* give me a sense of what it means to be a virtuous person, but when I read SN there is something deeper and more direct. > He wrote in the Introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya: > "In AN, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of > aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers > of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and > freedom from suffering." Is it possible that you've taken this out of context a bit? Surely BB doesn't say people are reduced to elements and sense-bases in SN. It's true that there is an emphasis on these things, but always a return to the people involved. They are very human stories full of monks with ailments, monks with doubts, monks in disputes, monks afraid of death. Suttas in SN seem to start with the monks, get to the elements (in a way that synchs so nicely with Abhidhamma) and then return to the monks. A sublime fusion of pannata and paramattha. I think of that Zen saying that Rob K referred to when I met him: "First there was a mountain, and then there was no mountain, and then there was a mountain again." We see things and people reduced to elements, but we return to the things and people with just as much compassion, and possibly more compassion than if we hadn't reduced them to elements. I think of a train ride I took last night. Every Monday night I come home from work on a night train full of very exhausted Japanese businessmen. (mostly) There is a stink of stale alchohol in the air, and the men are either sprawled asleep or staring in a bleak, exhausted way. In the past I have had such intense aversion to these train rides, because they just made me feel more exhausted than I already was. I made a story out of my fatigue, clung to it, identified with it, and made stories out of the other people as well. Last night, I went to elements, sensed the fatigue, the exhaustion - mine as well as theirs- as something that was not-self, arising due to conditions. It was very liberating in terms of dosa, and actually gave rise to a sense of compassion and friendliness. The barrier of dosa and clinging to self-stories that usually obstruct brahma-viharas were gone for that moment. The businessmen and I were reduced to elements for a moment, but then we were back, but there was compassion and friendliness now. This is an example of how I sense appreciating The Abhidhamma and those suttas that emphasize elements can help give rise to Brahma-Viharas by breaking down obstacles to them. This is something I'm sure I'll be writing about a lot more in years to come both here and at our Brahma-Viharas group. Thanks again for everything. You're helping me a lot these days. Metta, Phil I wish I had the BB collections! I'm still hoping that Santa will bring me the SN. 37939 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 8:42pm Subject: India cont. Dear All, A correction on my last post. It should have been Khangchendzonga that was seen from hotel room in Sikkim, not K2. Only since returning home, have I realised the enormity of the pilgrimige to the Buddha HOly Places. So full of my own kilesa about dusty roads causing sinusitis, long bus rides causing motion sickness etc, etc. that I did not think about the very tall Lodewijk sitting in a seat made for little Indian people. The gracious gentleman of many moons, sat for hours without grumbling and wriggling around like yours truly. At least, I did not hear him. Maybe he did to his ever caring wife, our wonderful Nina, but I somehow doubt it. Anomodana to you both for your fine example of patience. The gentle Thais who show so much respect and reverence for the Holy Places and to Acharn Sujin. At Kusinara, where Buddha entered Parinibbana, we knelt around a very large reclining Buddha, where the Thais sang a song praising the virtues of Buddha. To me, they sounded like a Deva choir [ not that I've heard one] and it made me weep bec it was so heavenly. After descending Vultures Peak, we were surrounded by the usual 'salesmen' trying to flog their wares. One fellow persistently tried to sell me a lovely necklace, and I told him I had no money, which was true at the time as it was back in the bus, and he said to me 'madam, I give this to you bec you have no money" and he did!!!! and then went off to try to sell other necklaces to other people. May he have a happy life. Lots of stories, and conventionally speaking India was a total experience, but in the ultimate sense only citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling ever so quickly. No India in the sights, sounds, smells, taste and tactile objects. BTW, on many walls thro.out Bihar we saw the word 'Rupa' lots, I understand it to be a brand name for something, but what a good reminder. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 37940 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 8:52pm Subject: A question ... which sutta? Hello all, A question .... If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37941 From: shakti Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? I would probably study anatta lakana sutta because to understand / experience anatta one understands / experiences all. With metta, Shakti christine_forsyth wrote: Hello all, A question .... If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37942 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 10:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner38-Feeling/Vedana (k) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Lobha-múla-citta accompanied by somanassa arises when there are the appropriate conditions; there is no self who can prevent this. If we study the different types of feeling and the cittas they accompany it will help us to recognize akusala cittas. If we would not know that somanassa may accompany lobha-múla-citta we would think that it is good to have happy feeling. One may see the disadvantage of unhappy feeling but does one recognize the disadvantage of all kinds of akusala, also when they are accompanied by somanassa? Somanassa does not stay. When we do not get the pleasant objects we are longing for our attachment conditions aversion which is always accompanied by unhappy feeling. If we realize the danger of all kinds of akusala, it can remind us to be aware of the reality which appears. This is the way leading to the eradication of akusala. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37943 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Letters for Nina Dear Friends, Nina stops her mail when she's away and asks me to f/w any posts likely to be of special interest to her on return. Usually this is no problem,but this time I'm fully stretched trying to catch up with all the excel posts during our absence too, so I'd like to ask for help. I know Larry is taking care of any Vism thread posts for her which helps a lot. I've only caught up so far with half the posts during our absence, but I know she'd be very interested to read 1)the posts on 'phassa', esp those relating to her chapter in Cetasikas and to Suan's, DN's, KenO's and others (KenH, Larry, Howard's too) referring to textual sources and 2)any of the posts relating to and discussing the 'teeth-clenching' sutta and comy which she wrote about at length.(MN20 if I recall. I think these were mostly by Htoo and DN. Possibly those relating to Buddhaghosa and Abhid controversy as well. What I'd like to ask is for those who have written on these threads or those who have written any other posts directed to Nina (EXCEPT for Vism thread or India thread which Larry and I will take care of) to pls either f/w them to Nina on her return (not before) or to summarise the posts/threads and repost here on her return for her to see. If anyone like Ken O (!!) would like to take care of the whole thread for Nina, better still by way of a summary and links, but it may be easier for everyone to just f/w or repost their own letters they'd like her to see. The same applies to any messages of direct relevance to anything else Nina has written or anything addressed to her subsequently (which I've not read yet) or any written from now on before her return (next week)apart from India and Vism ones. Many thx for this help. Metta, Sarah ======== 37944 From: Date: Mon Nov 1, 2004 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/1/04 11:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > Hello all, > > A question .... > If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one > of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ The Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Two reasons: The lesser one is that it goes beyond the Satipatthana Sutta in introducing more of the Dhamma, and the main one is given by the single word 'ekayana'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 37945 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? Hello Shakti, Sukin, all, Great sutta! and Anatta certainly flavoured most of the discussions during the India trip ... (along with Attachment (Lobha) - as Tan Ajahn says - 'It is The Teacher who does not let go of the Student). Anatta is acknowledged as the only truly unique buddhist doctrine - therefore of paramount importance. What brought my question to mind was Sukin's interest in obtaining a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary of The Samannaphala Sutta and its Commentaries 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship', and my inability to obtain a copy of it while in India - the Mahabodhi Society bookshops don't seem to stock it. (Sukin - I forgot to tell you - We went to Sarnath to make offerings to the monks at the "Mahapo" (Bodhi Tree) Association. The Thai monks had invited many monks from many buddhist traditions - the largest groups were Thai, with Tibetan (26 Tibetan Lamas), and Vietnamese, with some Tibetan and one Thera Bhikkhunis. The Sangha ate their meal, accepted the offerings and then there was five minutes of chanting in Pali by the Thai and then by the Lamas. It was a wonderful experience :-). (This is where I gave your donation Sukin, and I rejoice in your wholesome intention!) But to get back to reflecting over the Compleat Sutta - when I was browsing the duty free stores at the airport in Bangkok , I coincidentally came across, and bought, Ayya Khema's 'Visible Here & Now' about which she states: "When my teacher the Reverend Naanaraama Mahaathera, was asked once which of the many discourses of the Buddha he thought particularly important, he answered: the Samannaphala Sutta, the discourse on the fruits of spiritual life. If you could get to know only one discourse, he explained, that should be the one. It contains the whole path of purification, meditation, and understanding that the Buddha taught and that leads to complete enlightenment." Ayya Khema seems to emphasise the eight meditative absorptions - I look0forward to reading the book. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > I would probably study anatta lakana sutta because to understand / experience anatta one understands / experiences all. > With metta, Shakti > > > christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Hello all, > > A question .... > If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one > of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37946 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 4:02am Subject: Fresher !! -Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello Naresh > > Welcome to the group. Dear Phil, and Naresh, Hope you don't mind my 'jumping in' here, but want to make a comment about something you have written. > I am just a beginner compared to other people who can give you > advice here, but this idea of controlling the mind is a bit dangerous > in my opinion. In the Dhammapada (a collection of teachings in verse form) > The Buddha compares the mind to a fish flopping around, slippery and > evasive, difficult to tame. Eventually, through many many lifetimes, > wisdom develops, and the mind becomes tame, the flopping fish > quiets down, but it is a long way. > (The verse in Dhammapada doesn't say this - it is my interpretation.) > So perhaps wisdom is accepting that the mind > can't be contolled soon by people who are not yet enlightened.. But what we > *can* do is become more detached from the workings of the mind. > We can learn to see these mental moments (some of them unwholesome > and troubling, some of them seemingly wholesome) that come and go > as impermanent. That's fairly easy to do. Azita: I'm not so sure that its fairly easy to do. I agree that the mind is a bit of a fish, flip-flopping around, but i'm wondering what you mean by mind. Yes, we have thoughts spinning around out of control but I think that the moment of seeing an unwholesome/wholesome mind moment is far more difficult to reach than we have any idea. It takes a great deal of developed wisdom to actually know an unwholesome moment from a wholesome one; in fact before this level of knowledge, 'one' must truthfully know the difference bet. nama and rupa. Between what is experienced and the actual experience, to truthfully know the difference bet the object and that which experiences the object, the citta. Not easy, IMHO. We can see the way they > come and go beyond our control. Then we can know that whatever > is impermanent cannot be satisfactory in a lasting way. It is dukhha. > Do we want to take what is impermanent and dukkha to be our self, > to be what we are? No. So we come to see that these mental moments > are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. At first this is all very > intellectual. But in my opinion even thinking about detachment can lead to a > kind > of detachment! Gradually, the detachment becomes more real, deeper. > We are liberated from obsessing about our thoughts, from identifying > with them. They still race around beyond our control at times, but > they are no longer "me." It's very liberating. I recommend Nina > Van Gorkom's "Buddhism in Daily Life" or "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" > for an appreciation of how studying Abhidhamma helps us gain this > detachment. > (Links are available in the group files.) > > Metta > Phil Azita: the dhamma discussions we had while in India, were inspiring Phil, maybe you can come on the 2006 tour. It was well worth the effort. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 37947 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? Hello Howard, :-) Of course. :-) The One Way, or is it The Only Way? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. [It's SO good to have certain and speedy computer access again (No, Azita, I'm not addicted ... well, not exactly ...I'm sure I can give it up whenever I want to...As a matter of fact, I might try one day sometime in the future, if it ever becomes a problem...:-):-) ... but right now, my hands have stopped shaking] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 11/1/04 11:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth1@b... writes: > > > Hello all, > > > > A question .... > > If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one > > of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > ============================ > The Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Two reasons: The lesser one is that it > goes beyond the Satipatthana Sutta in introducing more of the Dhamma, and the > main one is given by the single word 'ekayana'. > > With metta, > Howard 37948 From: seisen_au Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? Hi Chris, Welcome Back.. When I first read your `A question' post, I too thought of the first 10 Suttas in the Digha Nikaya (not including the 1st and 7th Suttas). They all pretty much have the same list of teachings as the Samanapala Sutta but in different settings. The list is basically > Hearing the Dhamma, gains faith in the teachings, leaves the home life, perfects morality, guards the sense doors, is accomplished in mindfulness and clear awareness, contentedness, abandoning the hindrances, Jhana, directs and inclines his mind towards knowing and seeing, attainment of the super powers and the cessation of the asavas.. Birth is finished, the holy life has been led, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.. Take care Steve ps. see you in about a months time :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > But to get back to reflecting over the Compleat Sutta - when I was > browsing the duty free stores at the airport in Bangkok good cause>, I coincidentally came across, and bought, Ayya > Khema's 'Visible Here & Now' about which she states: > "When my teacher the Reverend Naanaraama Mahaathera, was asked once > which of the many discourses of the Buddha he thought particularly > important, he answered: the Samannaphala Sutta, the discourse on the > fruits of spiritual life. If you could get to know only one > discourse, he explained, that should be the one. It contains the > whole path of purification, meditation, and understanding that the > Buddha taught and that leads to complete enlightenment." > Ayya Khema seems to emphasise the eight meditative absorptions - I > look forward to reading the book. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > wrote: > > I would probably study anatta lakana sutta because to understand / > experience anatta one understands / experiences all. > > With metta, Shakti > > > > > > christine_forsyth wrote: > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > A question .... > > If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only > one > > of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37949 From: Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta? In a message dated 11/1/2004 8:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Hello all, A question .... If you were able to thoroughly study and grow to understand only one of the Buddha's discourses, which would you choose? ... and why? metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine First of all... its not likely any single discourse can present a comprehensive view of the Buddha's teaching. I think all of (at least) the Four Great Nikayas need regular attention to possibly get the correct sensibility and meaning of his teachings. Second point... I don't believe it is possible to -- "grow to understand only one of the Buddha's discourses." I think when one discourse is thoroughly understood, they are all thoroughly understood. Third point... Whatever Sutta one currently likes the most is the one impacting that mind at the level that does (that particular mind) the most good. So one thousand different intellegent people could pick one thousand different Suttas as their favorite because it was the one that had the most meaning to them at their current understanding and moral standing. All that being said, the last time I read the Majjhima Nikaya the two Suttas that stood out the most two me were #140 and #143. For a "hard core" insight press, Samyutta Nikaya Books 2 -- 5 are excellent as well. Sorry, can't get down to one. :-) TG 37950 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fresher !! -Phil Hi Azita. Welcome back! >Yes, we have thoughts spinning around out of > control but I think that the moment of seeing an > unwholesome/wholesome mind moment is far more difficult to reach than > we have any idea. It takes a great deal of developed wisdom to > actually know an unwholesome moment from a wholesome one; in fact > before this level of knowledge, 'one' must truthfully know the > difference bet. nama and rupa. Phil: Thank you for the reminder! I have to be careful about overconfidence. What I can say is that dosa-rooted mental moments (i.e citta and cetasikas that arise with it) are relatively easy to "see", since they are accompanied with unplesant feeling. And I have a lot of dosa, as we all do. I daresay that the forms of dosa that I am prey to are a bit more dramatic and prevalents than people who have been cultivating panna for awhile in this lifetime and have more wholesome accumulations. I often think of the learning curve, and my experience as an English as a Second Language teacher. Beginning students see dramatic changes in their abilities - their learning curve is very steep. I am at that stage. When my learning curve plateaus, and I no longer see dramatic "improvements" in my understanding, in the benefits I experience from no longer being at the prey of dosa to the extent I was before, will I become impatient and cling to results. Probably. Your post is a good reminder that we have to be very patient. As Nina writes, we fail to appreciate the value of a single moment of mindfulness that can condition the arising of minfulness to come. We want dramatic results. But there are many, many lifetimes to come, in all likelihood, before we are enlightened. Also, thanks for the reminder about having to know the difference between rupa and nama, which is something Nina (A K Sujin, I'm sure) stresses again and again. It is so easy to assume we already got that one. > Azita: the dhamma discussions we had while in India, were inspiring > Phil, maybe you can come on the 2006 tour. It was well worth the > effort. Phil: That would be fantastic! It won't happen until I am independent of my job with its limited vacation time (which I use to see my elderly parents in Canada) but I have heard that bricks of pure gold sometimes fall from the sky and land in front of people who are mindful of rupa and nama in the moment! Metta, Phil 37951 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 7:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" (Concepts as Realities) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In > ========================= > My apologies, Robert - sincerely. As I think about it, I realize that > I come from a background of years of study and work in mathematics, > mathematical logic, and formal linguistics, and that notions that are almost 2nd nature > to me are not so to almost all other folks. This is seriously shortsighted on > my part. > As I consider it now, getting bogged down in all the fine nuances of > these various ideas amounts to "getting stuck in the mind" and probably has > little or no value in helping us follow the crux of theory and practice of the > Dhamma. It likely amounts to little more than an intellectual game or pastime! > In fact, it may even provide a substitute, ersatz Dhamma that hides the true > Dhamma. > As far as the concept vs reality business is concerned, I guess that > all we truly need to know is that there is a real difference between what is > actually experienced and what alleged things/events we name, think about, and ========== Dear Howard, Thanks for your kind post. To summarize the Buddhist explanation of what is experienced: through the five sense doors are experienced only paramattha dhamma - reality- respectively sight, sound, hardness, heat, taste, smell etc. But through the mind door are experienced both concepts and realities. An example of a reality that can be known through the minddoor is anger(dosa) and then there can be concepts(pannati) about dosa. Or through the nose door smell is experienced, and then immediately there are minddoor processes which conceive (conceptually) about the smell . The minddoor processes are paramattha dhamma but the object (ideas about the smell) are concept. Robertk 37952 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 9:52pm Subject: "Develop!" Hello all, (Shakti, Azita, Tom), After leaving Kolcatta with the group, and spending one night in Bangkok, Azita and I had breakfast with Shakti and her husband Tom. The discussion turned to the meaning of the word "develop" (Shakti recalled spending time at a Retreat misunderstanding the leaders' accent (Goenka?) and hearing 'develop' as 'double-up' - so she spent some days trying to puzzle out how to 'double-up' her wisdom). Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-) For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. Take action. And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- associates in the holy life" Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of death" AN. VI.19 Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 Any thoughts? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37953 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 10:21pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner39-Feeling/Vedana (l) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Somanassa can accompany kusala citta, but it does not accompany each kusala citta. When we perform dåna (generosity), observe síla (morality) or apply ourselves to mental development, there can be somanassa or upekkhå, indifferent feeling, with the kusala citta. We would like to have kusala citta with somanassa, but for the arising of somanassa there have to be the right conditions. One of these is strong confidence in the benefit of kusala. Confidence (saddhå) is a wholesome cetasika which accompanies each kusala citta, but there are many degrees of confidence. When one has strong confidence in kusala, one will perform it with joy. We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Part II, Chapter I, 75) that: ‘abundance of confidence (saddhå), purity of views, seeing advantage in kusala, should be understood as factors of this consciousness in making it accompanied by joy’. When someone has right view of realities, right view of kusala and akusala, of kamma and its result, he will be firmly convinced of the benefit of kusala and this is a condition to perform it with somanassa. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37954 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa on the names of dhammas was: Last minute thoughts to Dighanakha Dear Dighanakha, --- dighanakha wrote: > > > Hello Sarah (and all). > > I hope you are enjoying your pilgrimage. I will now begin replying > to the posts you and Jon sent before departing, as I expect you > will be back soon. …. S: Thank you for your good wishes and for all your contributions to threads and translation assistance/help with the Pali here. ….. > S> Texts on Magadhan/Pali …… > S> I've said, I think in this case you're taking a very literal > S> approach. > D> I don't think so. …. S: I thought of you as we passed through the village of Magadh just before Rajghir which itself used to be the capital of Magadha, I believe…And then I reflected further on the Dighanakha sutta as we climbed Vulture’s Peak where it was taught, passing Mogallana’s and Sariputta’s caves… …. D:Consider this: > > "In the naama-&-ruupa dyad, naama means name-creating > (naamakara.na), shaping (namana), and causing to be shaped > (naamana). Herein, four aggregates are naama with the > meaning of 'name-creating'. … S:Thankyou for raising a good passage for further consideration. As I think the text explains, the meaning of nama in ‘nama-rupa’ is not the same as in ‘name’. I don’t think ‘name-creating’ is an adequate translation for naamakara.na. Earlier the text explained how concept or pa~n~natti is used to express or designate according to convention when we use terms such as I, mine, another, a couch, a chair etc. By contrast, when it comes to the 4 khandhas (i.e. namas or realities), ‘when they arise their name (i.e. nama quality) also arises. ….. D:> "Though King Mahaasammata was named 'Mahaasammata' by the > agreement (sammata) of the general population, or parents > give their children names by announcing, "Let his name be > 'Tissa', let his name be 'Phussa'!", or the name comes about > by way of some quality, such as 'preacher of Dhamma' or > 'memorizer of Vinaya', this is not the case with names [of > dhammas] starting with 'vedanaa'. …. S: Whereas Mahaasammata is only called this name by way of designation such as on a special occasion or by way of a personal quality etc, the nama khandhas such as vedanaa (feeling) have their own characteristics regardless of any assigned name. …. D:> "The [naama-dhammas] starting with 'vedanaa' and [the > elements] starting with 'great earth' arise *creating their > own names* (attano naama.m karontaava uppajjanti). Their > names just arise as they [the dhammas] arise. ….. S: Just before this we read: ‘This fourfold kind of name is only the one term ‘name’ (naama.m). ‘deonmination’ is name made, ‘name-assigning’ is name established. ‘Interpretation’ is name-making. ‘Distinctive mark’ (vya~njanan) is name showing the meaning (naamavya~njana.m), said because the name signifies or indicates the meaning. (Yasmaa pan’eta.m attha.m vyan~jati tasmaa eva.m vutta.m) ‘Signification’ is significant of name (Abhilaapo ti naamaabhilaapo eva). In other words, as I understand, a distinction is made between names assigned to concepts which accord with later concepts and realities which have their own distinctive marks regardless of any names assigned. ‘When they arise their name also arises. For no one, when feeling arises, says : ‘Be thou called Feeling’; there is no function of name-taking.’ ….. D:> "Because at the arising of vedanaa, no one says, "Let your > name be 'vedanaa'!" and there is no function of > name-acquiring (na naama-gaha.na-kicca.m atthi). > > "As when earth has arisen, there is no function of > name-acquiring: "Let your name be earth!" and likewise with > the arising of a world system, Mt. Sineru, the moon, the > sun, and the stars, there is no function of name-acquiring: > "Let your name be 'world-system!' Let your name be 'star'!" > The names just arise, as their spontaneously produced > designations (opapaatika pa~n~natti) fall into place; so > likewise with the arising of vedanaa, there is no function > of name-acquiring: "Let your name be 'vedanaa'!" But the > name 'vedanaa' just arises with the arising of vedanaa. Its > spontaneously produced designation falls into place. > > "And the very same principle applies to [the other dhammas] > starting with 'perception', sankhaaras etc.. > > [repeat the same for past vedanaa, future vedanaa, past > sa~n~naa, future sa~n~naa ... etc.] …. S: The nama or rupa quality of realities is there to be known regardless of any designated name. When there is awareness of feeling, it doesn’t matter at all what it is called or what language is used, but its characteristic can be known. For those with insight or understanding of nirutti patisambhida, when a word such as ‘vedanaa’ is heard, immediately there is understanding of its meaning, of its quality as a nama, distinct from a rupa. This is why some like Sariputta could hear a few words and immediately penetrate the ‘essence’ of the language. ….. D:> (DhsA 1303, Suttantikadukanikkhepakathaa) > > > "Dhammas arise creating their own names" ?? …. S: My numbering seems to be different. Anyway, p499 in the Expositor and #804 in the Pali text I’m looking at: , ‘tesu uppannesu teas.m naama.m uppannam eva hoti’. Can we say, ‘when they arise, their ‘naama quality, i.e of bending (namana) also arises’? ‘For no one, when feeling arises, says: ‘Be thou called feeling’; there is no function of name-taking’ (Na hi ‘vedana.m uppanna.m, tva.m vedanaa naama hohii ti’ koci bha.nati na ca tassa naamagaha.nakiccam atthi’.) Metta, Sarah ===== 37955 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!" Dear Christine, when we the monks are instructed by other senior monks and we are studying the word develops means to try to achieve or complete a task. Your interpretation is correct and also the suttras that you mention the word develops is correct. It means we should try to do something. Metta. Ajahn Jose christine_forsyth wrote: Hello all, (Shakti, Azita, Tom), After leaving Kolcatta with the group, and spending one night in Bangkok, Azita and I had breakfast with Shakti and her husband Tom. The discussion turned to the meaning of the word "develop" (Shakti recalled spending time at a Retreat misunderstanding the leaders' accent (Goenka?) and hearing 'develop' as 'double-up' - so she spent some days trying to puzzle out how to 'double-up' her wisdom). Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-) For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. Take action. And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- associates in the holy life" Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of death" AN. VI.19 Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 Any thoughts? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37956 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner39-Feeling/Vedana (l) Hello all > Somanassa can accompany kusala citta, but it does not > accompany each kusala citta. Interesting also to note that the pleasant feeling that accompanies kusala citta and the pleasant feeling that can accompany akusala citta are different in nature - or so I read in Abhidhamma in Daily Life, if I recall correctly.The latter is restless, agitated feeling; the former much calmer, in line with the confidence mentionned below, I guess. > One of these is strong confidence in the benefit of kusala. Confidence > (saddhå) is a wholesome cetasika which accompanies each kusala > citta, but there are many degrees of confidence. For example, I think of the pleasant feeling that accompanies something essentially meaningless like the victory of a favourite sports team, compared to the pleasant feeling that accompanies reading a helpful Dhamma passage. Or the pleasant feeling which accompanies a loved one coming home from work (any minute now) which is accompanied by such attachment, compared to the pleasant feeling that accompanies doing something helpful for a loved one. I wonder if those are good examples of pleasant feeling accompanying akusala citta compared to that accompanying kusala citta? Metta, Phil p.s sorry in advance for any redundancy if this topic is featured in upcoming sections... p.p.s the pleasant feeling that accompanies Sarah and other DSG members being back from Hawaii? There is attachment, but also confidence in knowing that their return will be helpful for deepening understanding of Dhamma... Hawaii? That is such a funny Freudian typo that I think I will leave it in! What if it were true! What a devastating revelation that would be!!! (lol) 37957 From: naresh gurwani Date: Tue Nov 2, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha Dear Htootintnaing Does this mean there is no god ? what about the great epics, Bhagvat gita, Bible, Kuran Ad per bhagvat gita Lord krishna is the creator of the universe. how is it possible to believ tht there isno existence of all this. pls reply back Naresh Gurwani --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > When referring to self as a Buddhist, we have to > understand what > kamma means and its implications. > > This is the only area that no other religions touch > or believe. > Instead, they appoint someone who never exists in > this universe as > God or creator. > > Whenever they cannot explain something they will > believe that it is > done by God or creator. When we read this message, > it is us who read > and no one is reading including their appointed God. > > We stretch out our hand from bent posture and again > bend from > stretched out posture and these are done by > ourselves and no God > involves at all. > > We breathe in and out. God is doing nothing in our > breath. Can you > control your breath? You will say yes. But when you > stop your > breathing for some seconds, there have already > arisen consciousness > that stop breathing before you actually stop it. > > Does God stop your breathing? Does Ala stop your > breathing? Does > Jesus stop your breathing? Does The Buddha stop your > breathing? > > No one stops your breathing but you yourselves. > Again, when deeply > investigated, there is no you or yourselves at all. > Just before > stoppage of breathing, there have already arisen > consciousness that > will stop breathing. > > Those consciousness are actually creating kamma as > long as moha or > avijja and tanha or craving are still not > eradicated. Kamma is a > complicated thing and there are different > classification of kamma > depending on causative power, timing of giving its > effect, seniority > of the power that will give effect in the next life, > the bhumis to > which kamma will send beings. > > Kamma is cetana or volition that arises with each > consciousness. New > kamma generation is stopped at and after eradication > of all kilesas > or defilements. > > Kamma is potentials and it is like seeds. Seeds give > rise to plants > when there are conditions that will help plantation. > > As kamma is related to cetana which is a nama > dhamma, kamma are said > to be the matter of beings. > > Those who appoint someone as a creator or God do so > because they > cannot explain what they experience or encounter. > Actually there are > 5 niyamas or natural laws that govern everything > imaginable. These > laws are natural laws and no one created these laws. > No Buddhas write > these laws. But all Sammasambuddha do preach. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > Any queries are welcome online or offline. > htootintnaing@y... > can be contacted. Or you can join the Group > 'JourneyToNibbana' and > ask questions. > 37958 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan (& Rob M), I agreed with most of what you wrote to me in a post while we were away: --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > You quoted from the Parinibbana Sutta commentary (?) in an eloquent > restatement of something we agreed on: > S:> > " 'There a [true] renunciate (samana) is not found': it is meant > > that there a first ascetic, namely a stream-enterer, does not > > exist....'Others' doctrines are devoid of true renunciates': > > others' doctrines are vain, empty, devoid of the twelve > > renunciates, namely the four who undertake insight meditation > > (vipassanaa) for the sake of the four paths, the four > > who are on the paths, the four who have fruition...... <...> > And you continue: S:> > Only one path as I understand, but of course we should respect any > > kusala, whatever the label or belief or religion. > D:> Right. Only one (right) path and we should respect any kusala. > Agreed. And on dsg we discuss what that path is. Is it a path of > thinking, conceptualizing, intellectualizing, cogitation, and > theorizing? Or is it a path of understanding reality as it is? This > is the question. Development of wisdom consists neither of sitting > quietly in a corner with closed eyes and directing the attention to > this or that object nor of speculating on reality, constructing > theories about reality, and blindly developing a conceptual framework > based on someone else's understanding and description of reality. ... S: Agreed. (Btw, the quote above is from the comy to Parinibbana sutta, ch 5,27, transl as 'the Buddha's Last Days',PTS). On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it's essential to hear the teachings and to to develop pariyatti or a 'right' conceptual understanding in the first place. Otherwise, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered to teach. As I said before, I agree with all your comments on M117 however. Not every aspect was taught in every sutta, however. ... D:> Of course, it can be helpful to listen to others' descriptions of > what reality looks like when it is understood directly, as it is. If > we hear something that is verified by our experience and "strikes a > chord", then the description can serve to help solidify our > understanding. However, conceptual models about anything beyond our > understanding we should just set aside rather than spin off into > thinking, doubting, or blindly accepting. .... S:Agreed. I don't think there has been any other suggestion here. Any understanding has to be one's 'own' understanding, even on a theoretical or conceptual level. Like Mike, I disagree with your conclusion that it is possible 'to have any insight at all without having heard the Dhamma' and I believe the quote I gave above, snipped partly now, makes that clear. Without hearing about namas and rupas, i.e conditioned dhammas as anatta, there won't even be the first stage of insight. This was true for the great arahants too. Of course in the Bodhisatta's case, he had heard the truths from the previous Buddha. RobM - I'm thinking of your lecture to samaneras and teenagers - I like Phil's idea of turning it into a workshop so that the audience can develop their own understanding. Letting the audience participate always works best I think. I'd just stress this moment and the realities that make up our lives now. Understanding the 6 worlds now, even a little, is the beginning of Right Understanding. The other factors have to arise with Understanding, otherwise they won't be right. Stress that they are momentary mental states arising together, I suggest and indicate how there are right and wrong path factors which can only be known from 'inside', not 'outside'. See 'Eightfold Path' in U.P. perhaps for more. I liked the other comments you were given. Dan may have more. Let us know how it goes. Metta, Sarah ======= 37959 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > RobM - I'm thinking of your lecture to samaneras and teenagers - I like > Phil's idea of turning it into a workshop so that the audience can develop > their own understanding. Letting the audience participate always works > best I think. > > I'd just stress this moment and the realities that make up our lives now. > Understanding the 6 worlds now, even a little, is the beginning of Right > Understanding. The other factors have to arise with Understanding, > otherwise they won't be right. Stress that they are momentary mental > states arising together, I suggest and indicate how there are right and > wrong path factors which can only be known from 'inside', not 'outside'. > See 'Eightfold Path' in U.P. perhaps for more. > > I liked the other comments you were given. Dan may have more. Let us know > how it goes. ===== I am honoured that they asked me to talk on this subject; arguably the most important talk of the week. I want to make it a high-impact talk that sticks with the audience and involving them in the subject is the best way to do this. I have to think carefully about the logistics; the audience will be sitting on the floor and I will be on a raised cushion. Breaking into groups for a workshop may be challenging. You are correct - there have been some excellent suggestions. I am really looking forward to this talk! Metta, Rob M :-) 37960 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner39-Feeling/Vedana (l) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello all > > > Somanassa can accompany kusala citta, but it does not > > accompany each kusala citta. > > Interesting also to note that the pleasant feeling that accompanies > kusala citta and the pleasant feeling that can accompany > akusala citta are different in nature - or so I read in Abhidhamma > in Daily Life, if I recall correctly.The latter is restless, agitated > feeling; the former > much calmer, in line with the confidence mentionned below, I guess. ===== Pleasant mental feeling is the same nature in both akusala and kusala cittas; it is the other cetasikas which are different which "refine the flavour" of the pleasant mental feeling. Cetasikas cannot be fully separated from each other; they arise in combinations. As an anology, chocolate cake, vanilla cake and stawberry cake are quite different tasting, but they are all sweet; they all have sugar as one of their ingredients. It is the same sugar that goes into all three cakes, but the other ingredients make each taste unique. ===== > > > One of these is strong confidence in the benefit of kusala. Confidence > > (saddhå) is a wholesome cetasika which accompanies each kusala > > citta, but there are many degrees of confidence. > > For example, I think of the pleasant feeling that accompanies something > essentially > meaningless like the victory of a favourite sports team, compared to the > pleasant feeling that accompanies reading a helpful Dhamma passage. > > Or the pleasant feeling which accompanies a loved one coming home from > work (any minute now) which is accompanied by such attachment, compared to > the > pleasant feeling that accompanies doing something helpful for a loved one. > > I wonder if those are good examples of pleasant feeling accompanying akusala > citta > compared to that accompanying kusala citta? ===== Good examples! The "technique" that I use to determine if a pleasant mental feeling is associated with a kusala or an akusala citta is to look for the presence or absence of the "six pairs" (tranquility, agility, pliancy, adaptability, proficiency, uprightness). These are explained on p46 of my book and p47 uses these cetasikas to contrast the mental state of a person who "enjoyed listening to a Dhamma talk" (akusala) versus a person who "listened to a Dhamma talk with joy" (kusala). Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 37961 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: "Develop!" Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two > truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO > something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not > able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that > let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best > later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was > blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which > half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-) > > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. > Take action. > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- > associates in the holy life" > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of > death" AN. VI.19 > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 > > Any thoughts? I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting that there is a self that has control. Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this precept is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of life." The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada). The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable". Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 37962 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: Dear Htootintnaing Does this mean there is no god ? what about the great epics, Bhagvat gita, Bible, Kuran Ad per bhagvat gita Lord krishna is the creator of the universe. how is it possible to believ tht there isno existence of all this. pls reply back Naresh Gurwani ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Naresh, Thanks for your reply. Actually this post was for beginners at JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group. As it is about kamma, I added some more idea and changed the topic to this current one. I am not trying to depreciate any religions. But nature is nature. Nature is things that are not created by anyone. There are physical nature like our external surroundings. There are nature that are to our internal environments. Anything or anyone can be fitted with nature. I mean anything or anyone is made up of nature. The Buddha. He was not free of nature. He was made up bodily components and mental components. Likewise all other religious founders were made up of nature. When these nature are not realized, then misunderstanding and wars have to break out. If someone does love god, then he can appoint a God. That God creates another 5 gods. 1. a god who creates DNA, RNA, and all genetic matters 2. a god who creates all physical matters like earthquakes, eruption of volcanoes, planetary movement, galaxy formation, solar wind etc etc. 3. a god who creates beings here and there and who creates everything related to beings 4. a god who creates beings to speak, to write, to think etc etc. 5. a god who creates intricate matters and keep them logical But after appointing these 6 gods, when you follows one god you will see as the god says :-). DNA god helps genetic engineers. These engineers see their god of gene. But when you follow the god who creates beings to behave such and such, then you will definitely stop worshipping other 4 gods and the first God. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37963 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 4:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 103 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 14 akusala cetasikas or unwholesome mental factors, we have discussed on 11 of them. There are three cetasikas. They are vicikiccha or indecisiveness or doubt or suspicion, thina or sloth, and torpor or middha. Vicikiccha is a mental factor that cannot decide anything. When it arises, this mental factor advises the king citta to cast a doubt on realities. As it cannot decide anything, it is an exhausting cetasika and makes the king citta exhausted with undecisiveness. This cetasika does not always arise. Even if arises, it is not so frequent like other cetasikas. But once it arises it gives rise to future potentials that would give rise to unhappy rebirth in lower realms. This cetasika vicikiccha does not exempt anyone including Buddhists let alone those who are apparently deviated from the right thing. This cetasika vicikiccha is eradicated by sotapatti magga nana. Once sotapatti magga nana arises, it sees dhammas and vicikiccha has to way to arise again because of sotapatti magga nana. If sotapatti magga nana has not been attained, then all are subjected to possible arising of this cetasika when there are conditions for its arising. If arises, then it already creates future potentials that are the result of arising doubts or indecisiveness. Vicikiccha is subtle. There are rooms for discussion on vicikiccha cetasika. Because simple doubt is not vicikiccha. Vicikiccha cetasika gives rise to its effect when it arises, while simple doubt arises without vicikiccha cetasika does not give rise to the same effect that of vicikiccha. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37964 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!" Hi Christine Welcome back. Very interesting post! I'm sure it will generate lots of discussion. > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two > truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO > something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not > able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that > let's you know which half I was in. :-) For what it's worth, I *do* feel we can be active in making wholesome changes in our lives, but it is also perfectly reasonable to use verbs without an active subject to talk about what is going on. Instead of saying "I generate loving kindness" I would much rather say "there is loving kindness arising " Instead of saying "I abstain from harmful thoughts", "there is abstaining from harmful thoughts arising " I find that this clicks with my experience of thing, the way these things arise beyond my control. That isn't a theoretical statement - it's plain and clear from examining of my experience. Because these kind of passive sentences are awkward sounding in English (they are natural in Japanese language, for example, in which the subject is often left out and the verb stands on its own) I now tend to say "panna" does this or that. Panna becomes the actor. I'm not really comfortable with that, either. But there is no other option in English, really. So I let it go. I use "panna knows" and don't worry about it. The main thing is what is experienced/insighted in daily life. This expereince seems to be showing me that the notion of being able to do something in a consistently intentional way (other than mechanical things such as sitting in a certain way, breathing in a certain way) just doesn't match reality. We worldlings *cannot* control our thoughts, for example, no matter what it says in whatver Sutta. To try to do so is courting madness. The Buddha didn't want to drive us insane, he wanted to liberate us. Why on earth would he ask us to force our mind in such an unnatural way? That's what I can't understand. So I let go of it. It is baffling and paradoxical. The crossing the flood Sutta. Not by moving forward, not by standing still. The Buddha used this paradox to gently discourage us from trying to hard to answer questions like you've asked, maybe? It is not *doing* and it is not passiveness either. It is somewhere in between there, and we won't know until we are enlightened? Just thinking out loud here. > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. > Take action. > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- > associates in the holy life" > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of > death" AN. VI.19 > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 Yes, we should develop these things, of course, but I don't take the above passages to mean we should go about it in a "the Buddha said I should do it so I will do it starting today" kind of way. I mean, we *should* develop our immunity system if we want to stay healthy, but how do we do that? We *should* love our parents, but what good does it do being told that if the love doesn't arise? It cannot be done by will power or intention. We *should* develop wisdom, but how do we do that in an intentional way? Surely trying to do so would be a recipe for self becoming fortified! A long post without much of substance, as usual. It seems that now that the gang is back from India I am back to my babbling ways. Conditions at work. Metta, Phil 37965 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: I am honoured that they asked me to talk on this subject; arguably > the most important talk of the week. I want to make it a high- impact > talk that sticks with the audience and involving them in the subject > is the best way to do this. > > I have to think carefully about the logistics; the audience will be > sitting on the floor and I will be on a raised cushion. Breaking > into groups for a workshop may be challenging. You are correct - > there have been some excellent suggestions. I am really looking > forward to this talk! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Friend Rob M., I didn't realize how important this talk was. I have reconsidered and I will try to post some talks. I am somewhat busy but I will try to help out as I can. Metta, James 37966 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 7:23am Subject: Intro- Eightfold Path for Teens Dear Friends, Rob M. contacted me off-list and requested: > Your explanations of the Dhamma for Sarah's Starkids > had a huge impact on > me. Though this group is a little older (12 - 18), > your youth-oriented > style is far better than my academic-oriented style. > Would you have time to > write nine posts on DSG (one as an overview of the > Eightfold Path and one > on each of the Path factors), aimed at a youthful > audience? I am not sure if I will be able to complete each of these nine posts in time, but I will try. Here is the first one: Introduction: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hello boys and girls. Today I want to talk to you about the Lord Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. First I want to give an overview of the Path and why it is an important path to follow and then I will talk about each of the path factors in detail. Hopefully, at the end of my talk there will be some time to answer questions and have some discussion. I offer this talk for your welfare, my welfare, and for the welfare of all sentient beings everywhere. When I look out at all of your young faces my heart is filled with joy. I am filled with joy to consider the wonderful opportunity you each have. I understand that at your age practically every adult is telling you what you can't do: "You can't drive a car!" "You can't go to that party!" "You can't stay up too late!" you can't…you can't… you can't! Well, I want to talk to you today about what you CAN do. You can be a respected leader of society. You can be happy and content. You can have many good friends. You can have intelligence and wisdom. The Buddha taught that the value and worth of a person isn't determined by how old that person is, but by how much wisdom that person has. So, even at your young ages, you have the opportunity to be the teachers of even your own parents! Imagine that! The way to develop this type of wisdom is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. But, let me caution each of you, following this path is not as easy as it may appear and many people won't understand the reasons for doing so. This is what the Buddha said during his first sermon about the Eightfold Path: And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that -- producing vision, producing knowledge -- leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that -- producing vision, producing knowledge -- leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. What makes this Noble Eightfold Path so difficult to follow is that it `leads' one to wisdom, it doesn't instantaneously deliver someone there. In this age of fast food, fast cars, fast computers, fast entertainment, who would be interested in something that takes a long time? Who has patience anymore? Unfortunately, not too many people have enough patience! Let me give you an example: These days I am reminded of an episode of 60 minutes I saw several years ago. In that episode, sociology researchers decided to conduct a long- term study of a group of six-year-olds. The study was to see the effect of patience in a person's life. They took each six-year-old into a room, put a small bowl of three M&Ms in front of him or her, and gave the following instructions: `I am going to leave the room. You are to stay in this chair and wait for me. If you want, you can eat these M&Ms, but if you can wait until I get back, I will give you five more.' Then the researcher would leave the child alone in the room for five minutes with nothing to do except stare at these candies. Some of them ate the candy right away; some of them waited a few minutes and then ate the candy; and some of them waited the whole time to receive even more candy. These children were re- visited 10, 15, and 20 years later to see how they were progressing in life. The majority of those who could not wait for even five minutes had a very hard life filled with drug abuse, crime, inability to maintain relationships, and personal dissatisfaction. The majority of those who could wait were very successful, highly educated, and had a great deal of personal satisfaction. So, how much patience do each of you have? Would you eat up the candies right away or could you wait to receive even more later on? Think about it. I hope that each of you would have the patience to wait; or, if not, will be able to develop patience. Or at the very least, I hope that you each will have the patience to listen to this very long talk! With that said, I want to look more carefully at each part of the Noble Eightfold path. (To Be Continued) Metta, James 37967 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner39-Feeling/Vedana (l) Hi RobM and Phil I would rather not discriminate whether pleasant feeling is arise due to kusala or akusala. I would rather know this is pleasant feelings, it is not me, I, myself. Sometimes in order to discriminate whether it is kusala and akusala we fall into the trap of I think "this is kusala" or "this is akusala". When practising mindfullness, it is the paramatha that counts at the moment and not to have an expectation or guessing, because that it may condition to arise of dosa (an anxiety to know whether it is kusala or akusala. A reflection of of one virtue after a virtue act, is an unprompted behaviour and this usually carried with it panna (I may not be right because it can also carried without panna). But it must be spontanteous because when we try to reinforce our virtue, we are reinforceing a concept that "I" have doing something good which could lead to moha. That is why practising of dhamma is always so interesting, many pitfalls to be aware of :). Just my thoughts Ken O 37968 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner39-Feeling/Vedana (l) Hi Ken O > I would rather not discriminate whether pleasant feeling is arise due > to kusala or akusala. I would rather know this is pleasant feelings, > it is not me, I, myself. Sometimes in order to discriminate whether > it is kusala and akusala we fall into the trap of I think "this is > kusala" or "this is akusala". Yes, I think you're right. It's usually enough to know in theory that the feeling will have a different flavour, to use the helpful metaphor Rob used. On the other hand, there may arise an awareness of the pleasant feeling being kind of agitated, and that can be a hint that leads to a momentary understanding of the ongoing cittas as akusala. I think of when I was still drinking alchohol, though rarely. I began to not enjoy the pleasant feeling that came with it as much as I used to, sensing how restless the pleasure was, how likely it was to fuel unwholesome considerations. So tasting momentarily the flavour of that pleasant feeling helped me to more deeply understand how unwholesome it is to drink alcohol in a way that I never had by simply reading that there is a precept that discourages it. I also think of that example that I used, and that Rob apporoved of. I think it was a good one, and I confirmed it last night. When my wife came home from work there was pleasant feeling, kind of like a puppy might feel when it knows it's owner has come home, and therefore leaps and bounds around the kitchen happily. (I had been home along all day, having my weekly one day retreat from the world.) There was this restless feeling, and a sense of a deep attachment. Later, as I cooked dinner and washed the dishes, the pleasant feeling was much calmer, based in doing something helpful for her rather than just loving her and craving her company. But yes, always knowing that this awareness, if it arises, arises due to conditions and not because there is a self that can penetrate dhammas at will and sort out the kusala from the akusala so easily. > When practising mindfullness, it is > the paramatha that counts at the moment and not to have an > expectation or guessing, because that it may condition to arise of > dosa (an anxiety to know whether it is kusala or akusala. Yes, no expectation, I agree. And no guessing. But panna may arise which reveals the nature of a citta momentarily. For people of low degrees of insight, like myself, I think this insight will almost always be into feelings, especially unpleasant feelings, since they manifest in a clearer way. I think this seeing into *pleasant* feelings is subtler and might indicate a slightly deeper degree of insight, so I feel encouraged - momentarily. Might - who knows? No clinging to results or craving of more such moments of insight. Well, that's not true. There is craving. That's why I carry a notebook around to jot them down should they arise! (snip) >That is why practising of dhamma is always so > interesting, many pitfalls to be aware of :). It's fascinating, isn't it? A fascination that can lead to clinging to the desire for more. I think this is why it is helpful to think of the Perfection of patience. Nina writes that we can be patient with pleasant things as well as the unpleasant things we usually think of as the objects of patience. Metta, Phil 37969 From: Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV,113 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 113. When, through the influence of the unprofitable (22)-(33), they are reborn in a state of loss, then the one kind of unprofitable resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (56) occurs as rebirth-linking; and it does so making its object whichever among the kamma, sign of kamma, and sign of destiny has appeared at the time of dying. [458] This firstly is how the occurrence of nineteen kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as rebirth-linking. 37970 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: "Develop!" Hi Christine, A big (and somewhat relieved) welcome back to you and your fellow travellers! --------------- C: > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. --------------- I think that's an excellent topic for conversation. Did some people think anatta changed less than everything? I'd like to know what, if anything, can be understood in the same way before and after the acceptance (as fact) of anatta. ---------------------- C: > Our discussion included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO something' standpoint ---------------------- There's nothing wrong with that. But our understanding of "DO something" can never be the same after accepting the fact of anatta, can it? ------------------------------- C: > and the other half took the ... well, I'm not able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that let's you know which half I was in. :-) ------------------------------- I'm not sure I follow. Did one half of the participants accept the doctrine of anatta and the other half deny it? (I'm being satirical, in case you hadn't noticed.) :-) --------------------------- C: > And Azita tried her best later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-) --------------------------- That means Azita explained paramattha dhammas. One or more others, it would seem, were clinging to conventional reality. There is no shame in that, but is it a luxury we can afford? ---------------------- C: > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. Take action. ---------------------- How does that understanding differ from the understanding you had before you 'accepted' the fact of anatta? (Note the poignantly placed shock quotes. More satire!) -------------------- C: > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- associates in the holy life" Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of death" AN. VI.19 Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 Any thoughts? --------------------- I am tempted to say; "Wait until our Cooran meeting (3 to 5 December), and we will set you straight," but that would be denying the fact of anatta: There are only the paramattha dhammas of the present moment. Accept that now or never! Kind regards, Ken H 37971 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 7:52pm Subject: Re: Intro- Eightfold Path for Teens Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Rob M. contacted me off-list and requested: > > > Your explanations of the Dhamma for Sarah's Starkids > > had a huge impact on > > me. Though this group is a little older (12 - 18), > > your youth-oriented > > style is far better than my academic-oriented style. > > Would you have time to > > write nine posts on DSG (one as an overview of the > > Eightfold Path and one > > on each of the Path factors), aimed at a youthful > > audience? > > I am not sure if I will be able to complete each of these nine posts > in time, but I will try. Here is the first one: > > Introduction: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens > James, this is *EXCELLENT* material. Thank you so much. Indirectly, you are going to have a positive impact on these kid's lives. Metta, Rob M :-) 37972 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 8:10pm Subject: Re: "Develop!" Dear Rob M, You wrote to Christine: --------------------------- > I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting that there is a self that has control. > ---------------------------- I agree, but there is a big difference between "formal meditation" and "the Buddha's exhortations" isn't there? The former is not mentioned anywhere in the Pali Canon as being a factor for enlightenment, but the latter is. (Or at least, "hearing, considering and putting them into practice" is mentioned.) I am tempted to say I would practise formal meditation if I understood the Buddha's exhortations to include, "Practise formal meditation!" However, it is unthinkable that he would have said such a thing. All of his actual exhortations deny the efficacy of formal meditation. ------------------ RM: > Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this precept is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of life." > ------------------ Recitation, for the purposes of remembering and understanding, is fundamentally different from formal practice, don't you agree? Even though we will often recite wrongly (with lobha, dosa or moha), we are unlikely to do so with wrong view. Formal practice, on the other hand, seems to be inseparable from wrong view. It only appeals to a mind that thinks dhammas can be controlled. ----------------------------------- RM: > The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada). The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable". > ----------------------------------- Maybe so, Rob, but you're sailing close to the wind. A formal practice by any other name would smell as wrong-viewish. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta > > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our > discussion > > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the > two 37973 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro- Eightfold Path for Teens Hi James. >I am not sure if I will be able to complete each of these nine posts >in time, but I will try. Here is the first one: Great stuff. You really have a gift. The tone is perfect. (The content is *almost* perfect! The study you refer to could mislead kids into thinking that people can have a stable, lasting character by intentionally developing one and holding on to it from childhood. Of course, that's not the Buddha's teaching. There are so many conditions. Correct social psychology and correct Dhamma can't always mix, IMO.) Looking forward to the whole series. Thanks for taking the time when you're busy. Metta, Phil p.s I remember your talking about aspirations to write about Dhamma, saying you received positive feedback from a Buddhist publisher or something. I think you should consider writing a book on Dhamma for kids if you haven't already considered that. I guess you have. 37974 From: naresh gurwani Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha Dear Htootintnaing But god is not so mean that he would want whom he ceated to follow only his guidelines & will not help to achieve liberation. Like Lord Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita , leave the illusion and come to me by worshiping me, so this way he means that all beings should be liberated and he wants it. pls pass your comments onthis topic. naresh gurwani --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh > gurwani > wrote: > > Dear Htootintnaing > > Does this mean there is no god ? > what about the great epics, Bhagvat gita, Bible, > Kuran > > Ad per bhagvat gita Lord krishna is the creator of > the > universe. > > how is it possible to believ tht there isno > existence > of all this. 37975 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 10:05pm Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup f/w LETTER FROM A NEW MEMBER ***** Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:33:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jeewaka Galappaththi Galappaththi" Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup To: "dhammastudygroup Moderator" Dear sir/Madam, My name is Jeewaka Galappaththi and I live in Sri Lanka,Colombo and i am 23 years of age.I am interested in my religion and have so many doubts to be clarified.I got to know about this site from one of are very respected Venerable Kribathgoda Tera's web addresses. (www.mahamevna.org).So I would really appriciated if i can get some answers to my quetion's in Thripitaka. So I wrote this letter to tell you who i am , so that we will have a understanding like members and the org because i cant straight away go to the questions.So please accept my membership and let me know the procedure of asking quetions and devolping understanding between us.I am happy that there are ways and means like these to understand our religion and educating people in this areas.I will wind up now and will ask my quetions when you accept my membership.Till then may the Noble Triple Gem bless you all in this great service your doing to the man kind. Your's Faithfully Jeewaka Galappaththi 37976 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 10:17pm Subject: Dukkha- What is it? Dear Group, In another group, I was involved in a discussion pertaining to Dukkha. This was on a day when this group was rather quiet ;-). Some members there brought up the question of whether the Khandhas had the characteristic of Dukkha or that it was so only when `clung to', in other words only upadana-khandha was Dukkha. This meant to some members, that an Arahat did not experience Dukkha and that he would refer to Dukkha only from memory. I thought that if I reminded them that the Tilakkhana applied to all conditioned realities, that this was obvious that Dukkha would indeed be the object of an Arahat's citta from time to time. I later gave the example of the Buddha's rupa khandha, that this was subject to aging, sickness and so forth, but this seemed not to be good enough. I tried then to show via the concept of the 12 vipallasa that only an arahat would not have any sanna or citta vipallasa with regard to Dukkha, inferring that he would indeed see truly the characteristic of Dukkha while even an Anagami does not at times. I am not very confident about my own position. So I have decided to ask my friends here to share their views and if I discover that I am wrong, I will go over and admit my mistake there. The question is, "Is Dukkha applied only to the Khandhas when they are clung to, or is it regardless of this?" Thanks in advance. Metta, Sukin 37977 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 3, 2004 11:29pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 40-Feeling/Vedana (m) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** The pleasant feeling which accompanies kusala citta is quite different from the pleasant feeling which accompanies lobhamúla- citta. When we give a present to someone else and there is pleasant feeling, we may think that there is one kind of feeling which lasts, but in reality there are different moments of feeling accompanying different cittas. There can be a moment of pure generosity accompanied by pleasant feeling, but there are bound to be many moments of attachment after the kusala cittas have fallen away. We may be attached to the person we give to or to the thing we give, or we may expect something in return; we want to be liked by the person who receives our gift. Such moments of attachment may be accompanied by somanassa. Somanassa which is kusala and somanassa which accompanies lobha are different kinds of somanassa arising closely one after the other, and it is difficult to distinguish one from the other. It seems that there is one kind of somanassa and that it lasts. Without right understanding we cannot tell whether the somanassa which arises is kusala or akusala. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37978 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India5 Dear Joop, You kindly responded to one of my India posts. Perhaps other ‘India pilgrims’ like Chris, Jon, Shakti, Azita or even O will add other comments as I don’t think mine will be the kind you’re looking for: --- jwromeijn wrote: > Hallo Sarah and other India pilgrims > > Nice to hear from you again. > What interests me is how (perhaps later) are the results of your > reflections on your tour ? …. What I reflected on a lot and found most useful were perhaps the following that come to mind now as I write: 1. More and more reminders about detachment, especially this time a growing detachment to akusala states – gone by the time there’s any dwelling and anatta. 2. Wider reflections on the meaning of ‘situations’ or stories’ which we cling to, such as in my case to Buddhist texts or commentaries (as DN points out in his own way;-) or to names and labels or references. 3. All the clinging in samsara which in the end is just for brief, useless moments of seeing, hearing and so forth which are so very fleeting. 4. Special and very humbling experiences at Holy Places, bowing my head low on the ground by the Buddha’s kuti in Jetavana or at the feet of the statue in Kusinara or under the relics and being reminded at the same time not to cling to any of the stories or experiences. …. J:> Especially on the experiences in the multi-religious and more > specific, the multi-buddhist culture in India. > I mean: do you think now, more than living in a mono-Theravada > culture that buddhist traditions can influence each other in a > positive way? And do you think that more than till now Theravada and > Mahayana buddhists can have fruitful discussions with each other? …. S: To be honest, I don’t think much about Buddhists and non-Buddhists, about cultures, about Theravada and Mahayana. If I can find ways to share what I have learnt about the Buddha’s teachings and have great confidence in, then I will. I think it’s the understanding of realities that is important, not the labels and definitely not the numbers. Like here on DSG, we have our discussions in public, so anyone can participate and we can all share our limited knowledge, but we don’t expect all Buddhist groups to be interested in the scope of our discussions. Having said that, it was very inspiring in Sarnath when we offered a large dana, to see bhikkhus of different nationalities and from different sects participating and communicating together. Nina kindly took a copy of her ADL and next time it would be good to take a few more books. I don’t think that concern or attachment to results or the growth/decline of Buddhism/interactions is productive however. We just help and share the Dhamma as we can and as we think best. On the trip I was also working on the long bus rides (when possible!!) and sometimes at night when I had to sit up to edit the discussions which I hope we can make available to anyone interested before too long. I think they make excellent listening. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina is spending her extra week in India working on her recordings and notes for a detailed series on the trip, so we can look forward to that in due course. ====== 37979 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Jeewaka, > From: "Jeewaka Galappaththi Galappaththi" My name is Jeewaka Galappaththi and I live in Sri Lanka,Colombo and i am > 23 years of age.I am interested in my religion and have so many doubts > to > be clarified.I got to know about this site from one of are very > respected > Venerable Kribathgoda Tera's web addresses. (www.mahamevna.org).So I > would > really appriciated if i can get some answers to my quetion's in > Thripitaka. … S:Welcome to DSG, Jeewaka and thank you for introducing yourself and letting us know how you found your way here. When I was your age, I was living in Sri Lanka too!! I hope you don’t mind me replying on list so everyone can get to know you too. I really hope we can help with some of your doubts and questions. You’ll help us all by sharing them. …. > So I wrote this letter to tell you who i am , so that we will have a > understanding like members and the org because i cant straight away go > to > the questions.So please accept my membership and let me know the > procedure > of asking quetions and devolping understanding between us. …. S: Pls go straight to asking your questions – you can just ‘reply’ to this post with them. This is the way we all develop understanding. …. >I am happy > that > there are ways and means like these to understand our religion and > educating people in this areas.I will wind up now and will ask my > quetions > when you accept my membership.Till then may the Noble Triple Gem bless > you > all in this great service your doing to the man kind. … S: Thank you for your kind words and anumodana. Every membership is accepted here, so please continue and leave any threads of discussion that are too complicated for now. You may also like to look at posts under ‘New to the List’ or ‘Abhidhamma – beginners’ in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ===== 37980 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > Hello naresh gurwani, I hope you don't mind my joining in this thread. I think, if you are not familiar with the Buddhist understanding of God, it could be a little shocking at first to realise that God does not stand at the peak of the Buddhist spiritual hierarchy. Indeed, the idea that there is a Supreme Creator is not something The Buddha taught. Perhaps this article may be of some assistance to you in clarifying the Buddhist attitude to god: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Dear Htootintnaing > > But god is not so mean that he would want whom he > ceated to follow only his guidelines & will not help > to achieve liberation. > > Like Lord Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita , leave the > illusion and come to me by worshiping me, so this way > he means that all beings should be liberated and he > wants it. > > pls pass your comments onthis topic. > > > naresh gurwani > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh > > gurwani > > wrote: > > > > Dear Htootintnaing > > > > Does this mean there is no god ? > > what about the great epics, Bhagvat gita, Bible, > > Kuran > > > > Ad per bhagvat gita Lord krishna is the creator of > > the > > universe. > > > > how is it possible to believ tht there isno > > existence > > of all this. 37981 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!" Hi Chris (& Shakti), I’m glad you made it home safely. How’s Rusty? Concerned to hear. I'm being given lots of potions for a lingering cough from the dust and last night as I went for a walk, it seemed I could still smell India;-) Reminded me of Nori's phantom limb posts and how sanna (memory/perception) can play tricks. Jon was back in the office on Monday morning, but fortunately I can rest. How about you? .... C:> For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do' > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that. > Take action. > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- > associates in the holy life" > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of > death" AN. VI.19 > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 > > Any thoughts? …. S: I’ve enjoyed reading the other thoughts. I think the question is who or what develops. What do you think? We can remind each other to develop skilful states and reflect on the Buddha’s admonitions above with right and wrong understanding, don’t you think? ‘Better to have no understanding than wrong understanding’ was a comment we discussed in Sikkhim…. Looking forward (with lobha like Phil) to any more of your descriptive posts from your impressions or notes of discussion points of special interest such as in Savatthi, in the hotel garden when we skipped Anathapindika’s house – ‘just a visible object’. Or anything else of interest or special reflection too. Favourite suttas – good selections and comments by Shakti, Howard and TG. For me right now, it has to be the first sermon, the Dhamma Chakka Pavattana Sutta. Jon, Nina and I recited it most evenings on the bus and I reflected on the marvel of the Buddha’s sharing of these universal truths with us – not subject to time, place, culture, sex, realm or any other limitations. Whether we appreciate them or not, they include the entire teachings which the wise could fully penetrate on the spot at Savatthi. (Shakti, good to see you on list – pls share any more of your reflections on anatta or other topics too). Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll try sometime to share just a few selected pics in the album,temporarily I expect. Hope others do the same. Azita - I think my best one is of you with the python, smiling happily. ====================== 37982 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Sukin, Sorry we didn't have a chance to speak on return from the trip - actually the timing in transit was perfect - no wait at all. Thank you and Ivan again for kindly sending the group off....Jon and I thought of you often on the trip. Next time, I hope. ... --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > > > The question is, "Is Dukkha applied only to the Khandhas when they are > clung to, or is it regardless of this?" ... S: Regardless. 'Sabbe sankhara anicca.....dukkha...' What is impermanent is inherently unsatisfactory. This is why they are not worth clinging to in any way. As you say, only the arahant has no more citta and sanna vipallasa(perversion) when it comes to the taking of the dukkha for sukkha. Look forward to anymore of your sharings. Chris, Jon and I were glad to see you posting again after being rather quiet, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s we didn't see Ken O's message with good wishes to A.Sujin on the trip until now. Would you kindly convey his kind thoughts for her on the trip when you next see her. Perhaps you'll both be able to join us next time. ======= 37983 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 1:08am Subject: Rusty Hello Sarah, all, Just a quick note. Rusty has improved, thank you for asking.:-) He still has no voice - so I expect he had some sort of stroke as well and is now aphasic. His medication has been reduced and he is much more animated. Whereas before he would give gentle growls and whines to attract my attention when I was absorbed in reading or the internet, now he taps me with his paw or relies on the Power of the Immovable Gaze. There is some delay in his nerves relaying information to the brain - his back legs tend to sink towards the floor until he suddenly realises and stands straight up again. The awareness of his mortality is now ever present, as it should be for all of us. Dukkha. But I won't let that spoil the present moment. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 37984 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma, God, Ala, Jesus & The Buddha Dear Htootintnaing But god is not so mean that he would want whom he ceated to follow only his guidelines & will not help to achieve liberation. Like Lord Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita , leave the illusion and come to me by worshiping me, so this way he means that all beings should be liberated and he wants it. pls pass your comments onthis topic. naresh gurwani ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Naresh, If you still want a god and want to appoint someone as god, there still exist a God. That god has very great loving kindness and when you are fused with that god, then all your sufferings will be wiped out. You have to worship that 7th God. The 1st God is the greatest God and creates 5 other gods. The 7th God will help you out from suffering when you are fused with him. So worship him. But to fuse with 7th God is not that easy. You will need some help from the 4th God. 1st God creates everything including you, if you want a God and appoint someone as a God. the 4th God will help you in fusion with the 7th God. There are only these 7 Gods if you still want to appoint them. If you do not want any God, as there actually exist no God, there is no problem with God. If you are confued and have a doubt, then the 5th God will punish you. When the 5th God punish you, the 12nd God and the 23rd God will involve. If the 5th God praise you, then the 12nd and the 3rd will also help you. Htoo Naing 37985 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:21am Subject: Right View- Eightfold Path for Teens Dear Friends, Part II of the talk for Rob M.: The Noble Eightfold Path begins with Right View. Right View is the first and most important part of the Noble Eightfold path because without it the other parts of the path would never happen. Right view is having an understanding of the Four Noble Truths. The Four Noble Truths are: Life is suffering; this suffering is caused by craving; there is a way to eliminate this craving; the way to eliminate this craving is by following the Eightfold Path. Right View is being able to see things the way they really are. Allow me to give you an illustration. There is a children's story titled "The Emperor's New Clothes" which points to the importance of Right View. Once upon a time there was an Emperor who wanted to have a beautiful set of clothes. He searched his land far and wide for someone who could produce the most beautiful set of clothes for him. Two very unscrupulous men, liars and cheats, decided that they would trick the Emperor in order to get the reward for the clothes. They presented absolutely nothing to the Emperor and told him that only wise and honest people could see the clothes they presented; which in truth were nothing more than thin air. The Emperor convinced himself that he could see the clothes and he declared how beautiful they were. Everyone in his palace and his kingdom also declared how beautiful the clothes were, even though they really couldn't see any clothes. The Emperor decided to go on a parade throughout the kingdom to celebrate his new clothes; and so he marched up and down all the streets absolutely naked, convinced that he was wearing beautiful clothes. All of the townsfolk cheered him on, also convinced that they could see his new clothes. It wasn't until one little boy, revealing the truth of what he saw, declared, "Look, look! The Emperor isn't wearing any clothes!!" Upon hearing that, the Emperor suddenly realized that he was unclothed in the middle of the street and the townspeople realized the same thing. The Emperor quickly returned to his palace in shame and embarrassment to put some real clothes on. Right View is what the little boy in the story had. He didn't believe something just because everyone else believed it; he saw how things really were, with his own eyes. He saw that the Emperor didn't have any clothes on! In comparison, the Buddha also had Right View. He saw that, contrary to what everyone else believed, life is suffering. You see, most people believe that life is basically satisfying and happy if only we can get what we each desire. People think that happiness means democracy, or marriage, or money, or a good job, or many other things. But the Buddha saw that all of those things aren't really happiness. He saw that what everyone else was taking for happiness wasn't really happiness at all! In other words, he saw that the Emperor wasn't wearing any clothes. So then taught other people what he saw and they began to see the truth also. To have Right View is to be contrary to what the majority of society thinks. It is to be different and to think differently. This is what the Buddha said about Right View: "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view." The important part of what the Buddha taught here is "knowledge" of the Four Noble Truths, not complete understanding. The Four Noble Truths are deep and hard to completely understand but it is important, for beginners like yourselves, to have knowledge of them. Let me repeat them again: Life is suffering or stressful. This suffering is caused by craving for things (be they a house, car, money, etc.) There is a way to stop this craving. The way to stop this craving is to follow the Eightfold Path. Write these Four Noble Truths in your hearts and minds and you will always have Right View. The next factor of the Eightfold Path is Right Resolve. (To be continued…) Metta, James 37986 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro- Eightfold Path for Teens Friend Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James. > > >I am not sure if I will be able to complete each of these nine posts > >in time, but I will try. Here is the first one: > > Great stuff. You really have a gift. Thanks > The tone is perfect. (The content is *almost* perfect! > The study you refer to could mislead kids into thinking that > people can have a stable, lasting character by intentionally developing one > and > holding on to it from childhood. I'm not sure what you mean. The study was about the importance of developing patience. It didn't really have anything to do with developing a 'character'. Of course, that's not the Buddha's > teaching. > There are so many conditions. > Correct social psychology and correct Dhamma can't always mix, IMO.) > > Looking forward to the whole series. Thanks for taking the time > when you're busy. You're welcome. > > Metta, > Phil > p.s I remember your talking about aspirations to write about Dhamma, saying > you received positive feedback from a Buddhist publisher or something. I > think you should > consider writing a book on Dhamma for kids if you haven't already considered > that. > I guess you have. I have but I am waiting until later. Metta, James 37987 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 6:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 104 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are still 2 cetasikas which are included in akusala cetasikas. These two mental factors are thina or sloth and middha or torpor. These two cetasikas are very close friends. They always arise together. Thina is a cetasika or mental factor that arises with sasankharika cittas. When it arises, it inactivates the king citta and because of arising of thina cetasika, citta becomes inactive. Even though the citta is doing it function as usual, its performance is not like that of citta without thina cetasika. It has some reductive effects because citta becomes less active and performance are not equal to that of without thina. Thina always comes with his friend called middha cetasika. Middha is a mental factor and when it arises, it causes associated mental factors inactive. When there arise thina and middha cetasikas, the citta and cetasikas are all inactive and their performances will not as equal as those of cittas without thina and middha cetasikas. Thina and middha cetasikas are not beautiful and they are not good mental factors. They also arise with moha and allied akusala cetasikas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37988 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 6:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 105 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have discussed on 7 universal mental factors or 7 permanent ministers of the king citta, 6 particular mental factors or 6 flexible ministers of the king citta, and 14 unwholesome mental factors or 14 destructive ministers of the king citta. There are 25 cetasikas left to discuss. They are constructive ministers of the king citta. Among 25 beautiful mental factors or 25 sobhana cetasikas, 19 cetasikas are called sobhana sadharana cetasikas. Because these 19 cetasikas always arise with each and every beautiful consciousness or sobhana citta. They behave in group and they never arise singly. There are 2 forces that support the king citta. These forces are arm force and naval force. In each force, there are 10 cetasikas or 10 mental factors. But as the leader saddha cetasika involves in both forces, there are 19 cetasikas altogether as universal wholesome mental factors. In arm force, there are 10 cetasikas. 1. general ( saddha cetasika or confidence or faith ) 2. right wing lt. general ( hiri cetasika or shamefulness ) 3. left wing lt. general ( ottappa cetasika or fearfulness ) 4. secretary ( sati cetasika or mindfulness ) and 6 soldiers 5. cittapassaddhi ( tranquility of mind ) 6. cittalahuta ( lightness of mind ) 7. cittamuduta ( plasticity of mind ) 8. cittakammannata( workableness of mind ) 9. cittapagunnata ( proficiency of mind ) 10.cittujjukata ( uprightness of mind ) In the navy, there are 10 cetasikas. 1. admiral ( saddha cetasika or confidence or faith ) 2. right wing rear-admiral ( alobha cetasika or non-attachment/ dana ) 3. left wing rear-admiral ( adosa cetasika or non-aversion/ metta ) 4. secretary ( tatramajjhattata cetasika or balance ) and 6 soldiers. 5. kayapassaddhi ( tranquility of mental factors ) 6. kayalahuta ( lightness of mental factors ) 7. kayamuduta ( plasticity of mental factors ) 8. kayakammannata( workableness of mental factors ) 9. kayapagunnata ( proficiency of mental factors ) 10.kayujjukata ( uprightness of mental factors ) Along with these 2 forces of universal wholesome mental factors, the king citta performs its full functions well. These 19 cetasikas always arise with 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 5 rupakusala cittas, 5 rupavipaka cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, 4 arupavipaka cittas, 4 arupakiriya cittas, 4 magga cittas, and 4 phala cittas. 8 + 8 + 8 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 4 +// 4 + 4 = 59 sobhana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 37989 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 7:57am Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 08 ) VIII. DRAINING TAINTS OUT FADING OUT Mind's tracks are there as we proceed. Each of us does have the mind's track. These are footprints of the mind. These prints have to occur because of those bodies that are physical bodies and mental bodies which can be read in the first part called ' The mind as the whole '. Even yesterday and today are not the same. As events are arising and falling away all the time, the past is generated all the time. If you do not recognize the present, then you will be shuttling from the past to the future and you will just pass the present only a fraction of a split second. Life after life have passed. Some may not believe the uninterrupted circle of birth and death and birth and death and so on. There is no trace of beginning in this cycle. The Buddha did not encourage to search the beginning. One very ignorant person asked The Buddha. This is not beneficial to liberation and there is no goodness in essence searching the beginning. The Buddha never said unbeneficial things. As life after life passes, there is no permanent life at all in any worlds called humanly world and deva world, fine material world or rupa brahma world and immaterial world or arupa brahma world. Even if you do not believe many lives, you yourself can sense your this very life. You do have your past. There were many events in your past. Actually all these are your mind's track. All these past events are the footprints of your mind. No one can be in place of yours. You have left your past far away. It is important that you leave all your past. Try to treat your mind right now. Otherwise you will have no time when the time comes. As past events were gone, the present that you are now facing is also passing to your past and they add to your past. When you began to read this post passed and even now more and more events are passing to your past. Events are coming in flow. it is important that you recognize that flow and know yourself that you are in the flow. After recognition of this riding flow, you will see that there are no ' we' or we are nowhere. If you see this then you are following the apparent track that had been laid out by The Talent as His task. The Talent ( The Buddha ) Has gone. He took the journey and as the journey is a certainty, He was liberated. As soon as the present is recognised, the taints that dye your mind are started to drain out. They are fading away. When you were not at the present, there were thick taints that fast your mind and you will know that there had been different colours in your mind in your past like blue, green, golden, brown, grey, red, black, serene white etc etc. But since you see your present, taints start to drain out and fade away. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 37990 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Sloth, torpor and fatigue (was Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 104 ) HelloHtoo, and all Could I ask for a clarification here? > Thina is a cetasika or mental factor that arises with sasankharika > cittas. When it arises, it inactivates the king citta and because of > arising of thina cetasika, citta becomes inactive. > > Even though the citta is doing it function as usual, its performance > is not like that of citta without thina cetasika. It has some > reductive effects because citta becomes less active and performance > are not equal to that of without thina. At first you say citta becomes "inactive" becase of thina, and then you say that it "has some reductive effects" and the citta becomes "less" active. Is it important to know if the citta is completely inactive or just less active? > Thina always comes with his friend called middha cetasika. Middha is > a mental factor and when it arises, it causes associated mental > factors inactive. Here, middha causes mantal factors to be "inactive." > When there arise thina and middha cetasikas, the > citta and cetasikas are all inactive and their performances will not > as equal as those of cittas without thina and middha cetasikas. To be honest, from the above descriptions, I don't really get an idea about the difference between thina and middha. Could I ask you to clarify just a little? Another question - how does plain old fatigue, being very tired after a long day, physically tired, relate to these cetasikas? I guess fatigue conditions them. I know fatigue is not classified as a reality, but it certainly feels real when it is sitting on my shoulders weighing me down as I trudge home. Is fatigue a reality? It seems we can identify it, experience it. I am learning not to identify with fatigue, not make it self, to not take the physical experience of fatigue and turn it into mental unpleasant feeling by making a story out of it. In brief, becoming a bit more detached from physical tiredness. If anyone else has thoughts on the Dhamma implications of fatigue I'd appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 37991 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re:Tracing the mind's track ( 03 ) Stephen wrote: Hello Htoo, >If you want to apply to science and the world, then you will always >be worldly one. If you want yourself to be a worldly one, you do not >need to touch dhamma at all let alone criticizing The Buddha and His >Abhidhamma. The abhidhamma was written hundreds of years after the passing of the Buddha; it is not "His." This is known. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha preached abhidhamma at deva realms for 3 months non-stop. he left talking image there and went down to human realm and had daily meal. After each meal, He met Sariputta Thera and re-preached the summary of what He preached at Tavatimsa deva realm. When The Buddha finished preaching of The Abhidhamma, Sariputta Thera finished preaching of abhidhamma at human realm. Abhidhamma was never written. But handed down only by oral citation through Sangha. Writing well developed only at 4th Buddhist Council, even though there exist writing even in Buddha's time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: To deny facts, science in general, is not a good way to see things as they are; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Things as they are means from view point of liberation. Otherwise there are endless reralities. But ultimately there are not many as realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: it's a way to live in a metaphysical realm. There is nothing incompatible between science and the Dhamma. To insist that to be a Buddhist one has to deny that there are 92 naturally occurring elements, etc., ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. There are more than 92 elements. Scientists do have limitation in finding realities. Because these realities are not ultimate realities, there will be endless discoveries. Currently there are 118 elements. The last element was element number 118 and its name is called Ununoctium. Its atomic number is 118. It is in the group of inert gas. It is in the 7th table of period table in Chemistry. There will still be more elements. All elements are ultimately nothing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- and one must believe that there are 4 elements, is to make the Dhamma embarressing and unavailable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Htoo old post ] >If you want to study contemporary psychology and cognitive science, > >it is fine and you can follow as you prefer. If you want to study > >sensory data and their implication, it is fine and that is your > >choice. What contemporary psychology, cognitive science, and the Dhamma have in common is that they are based on experience that one can replicate for themselves. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha already told 'sanditthiko'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: The world doesn't exist in your mind Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The world is in everyone's mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: Drawing a distinction between experience (nama) and the world (rupa) is a bad beginning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is bad judgement. There are rupa which are not the world. And you will never find some rupas in the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: Look at an actual perception of a tree: do you just see a tree, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I see 'a tree', there happened many many events. You may murmur that I am talking abhidhamma again. But 'a tree' is just concept. Example: Now you can see images on the net through PC in front of you. If 1000,000,000,000 images serially arise in a matter of a split second, you will not know any images of them. Conventionally everyone will have to say they see a tree. But ultimately there is no tree at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: or do you overlay a theory and imagine the tree (rupa) and some interior spectator (nama) seeing it? Perhaps with binoculars through the portholes of the eyes? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If science has to be involved, for seeing there are many complex mechanism. First there have to be things which are to be seen. There has to be a good light. This good light has to come from a light source. From that light source, there arise photons. They travel straight line in the speed of 186,000 miles per second. While they are travelling, these photons go with wave forms. Unlike other waves, like waves of photons have multidirectional. These photons travel from the light source to the object and then from the object to the eyes. Again when they send the data into the eyes, they first have to pass corneas of the eye which is the outtermost covering of gelatinous material of the eyeballs but at the centre at the front part, there have a special arrangement of molecules so that the sclera portion of the eye has a very clear media and this part is again given the name cornea. The data go in through the corneas. Then they have to pass a clear fluid that fill in the front part of the whole eyeball. Then light passes through a small shutter called iris which is a specialized membrane supported by a specialised muscle called ciliary muscles. After passing through this aperture, there hit another membrane which cover a gelatinous material called 'len'. Then pass the len and then pass through the hind part membrane. After that the light passes through another fluid media which is much more thicker than the former fluid. After passing through this fluid, light energy hit the topmost layer of the retina. This cause a lot of changes in the layer itself. There are different photo pigments in the retinal layer. Because of energy changes, there arise electrical changes in the layer underneath. Again these changes are transmitted as data to deeper layers. These again are brought to a bipolar cells and these again pass forward to another layer and data are then pass again through choroid layer and then scleral layer again before it connects to a nerve. The nerve receives electrical changes through neurotransmittion which are again carried out by a specific cell with special packs of organelles rich in storage materials. These organelles cause releases of neurotransmittors and they act on the post-membrance receptors. Receptors again as they are attached with specific material, they transduce electricity and this again is pass to the cell body and then through axoms they send data to another interconnected nerve cells. When the nerve starts it takes the name called optic nerve as it concerns with optical images. There is a pair of nerve. Right and left. Again there are specific arrangement. At least these two nerve meet at a point at a cross. Again from that cross, data are transmitted to a small node called ganglion and there relay the information. After that data in the form of transmission are carried along a special nerve and pass through different lobes of the brain. The brain has 2 halves called hemisphere. Again these 2 spheres are fused at the middle. Through different different lobes of the brain which have different function such as auditory association, visual association, gustatory association, linguistic association, intellectual association and many other brain cells involve. Again the data are passed to the destination area in a lobe of the brain called Brodca area 17. Again this area is connected with many other area. Through this area the visual datas are transported to the visual cortex of the brain. Only when data arrive at visual cortex, the job of seeing scienticfically is done. If there is anything wrong in between these stages, there is no seeing at all.If you perceive these as realities, there will be much much more complicated matter in other senses. The knowledge of these help people in their physical matters like cataract. But all these are not related with liberation at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: > >> Eihei Koroku, also given in 1241, Dogen says: This mountain monk has not lectured for the sake of the assembly for a long time. Why is this? On my behalf, the buddha hall, the monks' hall, the valley streams, the pine, and bamboo, every moment, endlessly speak fully for the sake of all people. Have you all heard it or not? If you say you heard it, what did you hear? If you say you have not heard it, you do not keep the five precepts. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have no idea why you brought this stuff up here. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > metta, stephen 37992 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re:Tracing the mind's track ( 03 ) Hello Htoo, >> Eihei Koroku, also given in 1241, Dogen says: This mountain monk has not lectured for the sake of the assembly for a long time. Why is this? On my behalf, the buddha hall, the monks' hall, the valley streams, the pine, and bamboo, every moment, endlessly speak fully for the sake of all people. Have you all heard it or not? If you say you heard it, what did you hear? If you say you have not heard it, you do not keep the five precepts. >> metta, stephen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Stephen, When you said that there are not only 4 elements, I thought you started to attack The Buddha. Leave that there. Regarding element of science, you mentioned there are 92 elements. You are outdated. There are currently 118 elements in Chemistry. Most recent element found is Ununoctium. It has atomic number 118. In the periodic table of Chemistry, this element is included in the 7th table and in the longitudinal column, it is in the last cloumn. It generic group is inert gas. 118th element is an atom of an inert gas. That atom is Ununoctium. It is inert because in its orbital pathway, there are full of electron energy and there is no place to add for any further electron. In this way it becomes inert. While you do not have updated scientific knowledge, you still want to talk on science which is just expansion of samsara and far away from liberation. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37993 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Sloth, torpor and fatigue (was Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 104 ) Dear Phil, This is one area that I need to digest. But your questions are not poking very difficult areas. I will try to answer. Please see below for discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: HelloHtoo, and all Could I ask for a clarification here? [ Htoo post ]> > Thina is a cetasika or mental factor that arises with sasankharika > > cittas. When it arises, it inactivates the king citta and because of > > arising of thina cetasika, citta becomes inactive. > > > > Even though the citta is doing it function as usual, its performance > > is not like that of citta without thina cetasika. It has some > > reductive effects because citta becomes less active and performance > > are not equal to that of without thina. Phil: At first you say citta becomes "inactive" becase of thina, and then you say that it "has some reductive effects" and the citta becomes "less" active. Is it important to know if the citta is completely inactive or just less active? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This word 'inactive' is just to show comparison. All cittas are active. But there are 8 lobha cittas. 4 are asankharika cittas. And other 4 are sasankharika cittas. Sasankharika cittas are associated with thina and middha. That is why they need promptedness. But thina and middha do not arise in kusala dhamma. In kusala dhamma there are also asankharika cittas and sasankharika cittas. These should not be confused. Sasankharika kusala will give rise to tihetuka omaka kusala or dvihetuka omaka kusala. They give less than tihetuka. So activeness is more important in kusala cittas where there is no thina and middha. But in akusala dhamma, when there are thina and middha, that akusala is not too strong as in case of without thina and middha. Example, if someone kills another one with thina and middha, this will not be the same as without thina and middha. In akusala dhamma, reduction seems to be good. But when jhanas dhamma are being dealt with, thina and middha disturb jhana and hinder jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thina always comes with his friend called middha cetasika. Middha is > > a mental factor and when it arises, it causes associated mental > > factors inactive. > > Here, middha causes mantal factors to be "inactive." > > > > When there arise thina and middha cetasikas, the > > citta and cetasikas are all inactive and their performances will not > > as equal as those of cittas without thina and middha cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: To be honest, from the above descriptions, I don't really get an idea about the difference between thina and middha. Could I ask you to clarify just a little? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are hard to separate and hard to understood on each separately. Thina is said to be sluggishness of citta and middha is said to be sluggishness of mental factors. I do not think we need to differentiate between these 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Another question - how does plain old fatigue, being very tired after a long day, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha did have fatigue. But He did not have any thina or middha. The Buddha was always active. Because of fatigue, He had to take a rest on some occasions on the half way of preaching of Dhamma. He delegated to Sariputta to continue His preaching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: physically tired, relate to these cetasikas? I guess fatigue conditions them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Physical and mental are associated in a way. Because there are cittaja rupa, aharaja rupa, utuja rupa, and kammaja rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: I know fatigue is not classified as a reality, but it certainly feels real when it is sitting on my shoulders weighing me down as I trudge home. Is fatigue a reality? It seems we can identify it, experience it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am also interest in it. What is sure is we cannot see fatigue, hear, smell, taste. So there are 2 senses left. 1. body? 2. mind? If kaya-related, then fatigue has to be one of three called pathavi, tejo, and vayo. It may well be some form of vayo. You may know you feel fatigue. But fatigue is not thina or middha at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: I am learning not to identify with fatigue, not make it self, to not take the physical experience of fatigue and turn it into mental unpleasant feeling by making a story out of it. In brief, becoming a bit more detached from physical tiredness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Understandable, Phil. But physical fatigue is not thina or middha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: If anyone else has thoughts on the Dhamma implications of fatigue I'd appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I hope these discussion work for you. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 37994 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 9:50pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 41-Feeling/Vedana (n) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Since there are many more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas, there are many more moments of somanassa which are akusala than moments of somanassa which are kusala. We cling to somanassa but we cannot choose our own feelings. Who can control which feeling arises at a particular moment? Feelings arise when there are the right conditions for their arising, they are anattå, non-self. When a certain feeling appears it can be known as only a kind of experience, no self in the feeling. Somanassa can accompany kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sensesphere, rúpåvacara cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) and lokuttara cittas. As regards rúpa-jhånacittas, somanassa accompanies the cittas of four stages of jhåna, it does not accompany the cittas of the fifth and highest stage of jhåna. At this stage the citta is accompanied by upekkhå, which is more refined and tranquil than somanassa. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 37995 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 10:01pm Subject: Sloth, torpor and fatigue (was Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 104 ) > Phil: > > If anyone else has thoughts on the Dhamma implications of fatigue I'd > appreciate hearing them. > > Thanks in advance for any feedback. > > Metta, > Phil Friend Phil, It sounds like you are trying to push past your fatigue and still practice mindfulness in the midst of fatigue. Trying to do this isn't very effective and it isn't what the Buddha taught. When you are so physically and mentally tired that you can't think straight, you should just rest. However, if you find that this is a daily occurrence and there isn't a logical explanation for the fatigue, you should consider a physical cause: such as low blood sugar, hypoglycemia. Try to eat healthy and avoid eating any sweets, white bread, coffee, and alcohol. Also, get enough sleep. And consider, the type of fatigue you are describing is different than the hindrance of sleepiness/torpor which will arise during meditation. That type of sleepiness, which has no logical cause, should be overcome without stopping to rest. Hope this helps. Metta, James 37996 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Sukin, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:17 PM Subject: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? > The question is, "Is Dukkha applied only to the Khandhas when they are > clung to, or is it regardless of this?" For an arahat, aren't dhammas empty and impermanent? Why shouldn't they also be unsatisfactory? I think sometimes people confuse dukkha with domanassa--and in some contexts maybe these are synonymous--but not in this one, I think. mike 37997 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Samyutta Nikaya threads Dear Phil (James, Christine & All), You asked me (off-list) about the earlier Samyutta Nikaya posts which Nina referred to because you’re hoping to discuss further SN suttas. You also asked for any assistance/forwarding of these posts as you have very limited internet access. James, Chris or others may be able to help further with links or f/w, but as I recall the discussions and postings lasted over weeks if not months and in some detail, systematically looking at the first few Samyuttas and then jumping around a little. I think James, Chris, myself and Nina were the main contributors to the threads. If you go to the following link and simply download or scroll through the 28000’s, I think most will be here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/msg/28000.htm One of the first posts in the SN thread would have been the following one of James’s, which I could find easily because it was under ‘devas’ in U.P: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28310 I’ll just give the text here, but you can read the comy notes and his notes from the link: At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peaceful, leading the holy life, Eating but a single meal a day: Why is their complexion so serene?* [The Blessed One:] "They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." SN I, 10 ***** We asked many people on our trip which Holy Place had the greatest significance or was most special for them. I think everyone included Jetavana in Savatthi in their reply. Many serene complexions in our group at this spot. Phil, please start posting any of the SN suttas you have in mind (or extracts) with any comments or queries. None of them have been discussed enough and I’ll be delighted for one, to join further discussions. It’s probably easier to just go ahead rather than to look back for past discussions. If anything particularly relevant comes to mind, I’ll repost it if I can or others may help. Metta, Sarah p.s James - great posts for the teens. Beautifully written. My only suggestion would be to avoid the controversial translation terms of 'stress' and 'unbinding' if possible. ======= 37998 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner36-Feeling/Vedana (i) Hi Howard, I'm just trying to pick up on posts addressed to me - this one of yours was flagged from when I went away. Glad to read all your other contributions to threads in our absence too. Here, you raised some excellent points and some came up on the trip too. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > S: (from Cetasikas): > > We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this > > is not so. The moment of body-consciousness (kåya-viññåùa) is > > extremely short; it is only one moment of vipåka and after it has > > fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. > > > > Body-consciousness is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or > by > > painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which > arise > > shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different > from > > bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy > feeling > > or indifferent feeling. > > ***** H:> Assertions in Abhidhamma along these lines are among those > elements of > Abhidhamma that correlate perfectly with my personal experience. This, > in > itself, of course, enables no clear conclusion as to the correctness of > my > understanding of my own experience in this mjatter or of the > Abhidhamma's take on > this matter. It is simply so. > To me, it seems clear that every bodily sensation is either > pleasant > or unpleasant. The sensation, itself, may be strong or weak, and the > associated > feeling as well may be strong or weak, and weak bodily feeling may be > mistaken as neutral, but that *is* a mistake I believe. .... S: Agreed. .... H:> On the other hand, it seems to me that every visual sensation is > neutral, and that what we take for pleasant or unpleasant visual > sensations are > actually subsequent mind-door objects. Also, when we shut our eyes to > escape an > unpleasant rapid and strong increase in brightness, such as when we > emerge, > driving, from a dark tunnel into bright sunlight, we are responding not > to > unpleasant eye-door experience, but to unpleasant body-door experience - > literally > to physical pain. ... S: Agreed again. Eye door, body door and mind door experiences follow each other so rapidly that 's it's easy to get confused. The unpleasant or painful bodily experience cannot be through the eye door but may well be through the body door (there's body-sense all over the body inc. in the eyes, ears etc) at these times when heat or hardness for example impacts. Of course, most the unpleasant feeling is that accompanying the aversion through the mind door. .... > What is less clear to me is the vedanic status of ear-door > experience. > It does seems to me that some sounds are pleasant and some unpleasant, > and > that it is the sounds, themselves, and not subsequent mind-door > phenomena. .... S: It's just the same as through the eye door. Even though some sounds experienced are inherently pleasant and some unpleasant, the ear door experience is always accompanied by neutral feeling. But like in your bright light example, there are also body door experiences when, for example, the impact of a sound (the hardness experienced by the body sense cittas, I believe)conditions unpleasant bodily feeling. In other words, there are ear door and body door experiences with mind door experiences in between. ..... >H:But I > could be mistaken in this. (Whether I am or not, there is also the > distinction to be made with regard to sound-door vedana and the > body-door vedana > pertaining to painfully loud sound similar to pain resulting from > relatively bright > light.) What is the Abhidhammic take on ear-door vedana? Can it be > non-neutral? .... S: I think you're on the right track and have raised good questions. Ear door vedana is just like eye door vedana - must be neutral feeling, but different sense door and mind door processes follow each other very closely. Some people are particularly susceptible to bright lights or sounds, so we can see that in addition to different accumulations of defilements accompanying these experiences, there are also varying body-sense experiences in between the eye door and ear door experiences too. The 'Abhidhammic take' is never simple, but always logical, I believe;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 37999 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 11:19pm Subject: Measurements - 'It's not my line...' Dear DN, Jim, RobK and All, There have been occasional discussions on DSG about various measurements used in the commentaries which don't seem to make any sense or to tally with data in the Nikayas or with modern science. Most recently were discussions about the sun and moon (about which I know nothing). When I briefly broached the subject with K.Sujin, her response was simply to suggest we say 'It's not my line'. In other words, it's not of relevance to the truths about realities which can be known at this moment, leading to the eradication of all defilements. At other times, she'd simply say or suggest we say 'it's beyond my understanding', such as in the example of the wolf child, rather than spend time trying to puzzle out what cannot be comprehended. Having rested the issue of measurements, later in the trip, I happened to be discussing in brief the sizes of the kutis (the Buddha's and other disciples')with Pinna. She has spent years and years researching archaeological and architectural aspects of the original kutis and monasteries for her research papers and PhD etc. I mentioned we'd previously come across some puzzling data about the height of the Buddha measured in 'hattha' which when cross-referenced made him out to be 20' in height! Clearly he would not have fitted in the kutis we visited. Pinna explained that even after all her research, it's impossible to know exactly what various measurements at different times meant and that they changed at different times. She said she came across this problem all the time in her research on kutis. For example, a 'hattha' at the time of the Buddha might not be measured in the same way as when the Vinaya was written down or when the commentaries were added. It might be measured at times from the elbow to the palm or from the elbow to the finger tips or sometimes just the hand perhaps. I'm just giving this as a simple example of how some apparent nonsense may have a logical explanation that we have no idea about. So perhaps it's better to stick to the 'it's not my line' or 'it's beyond my understanding', rather than an outright rejection when we come across passages which make no sense or seem like obvious nonsense? Metta, Sarah =====