38800 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:36am Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi All (especially Antony), I note that Antony has uploaded "Noble Eightfold Path for Teens" to his discussion group on the Eightfold Path: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/ I will therefore delete it from DSG files section. If you would like me to email you a copy, please drop me a note at rob.moult @ jci.com (without the spaces around the @). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Thanks, Antony! 38801 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi KenO (&Dan), --- Ken O wrote: > So are you saying there is conceptual right view or are you saying > that conceptual right view is the same as mundane right view. .... S: There is lokuttara (supramundane) right view and lokiya (mundane) right view. Lokiya(mundane) right view can either refer to moments of satipatthana (five or sixfold path path moments)as referred to in suttas such as the Samma Ditthi Sutta as Dan rightly pointed out or can refer to moments of lokiya right view (i.e panna) which have concepts about realities as objects, or right view accompanying moments of samatha development, for example, which always have concepts as object. As I mentioned, samma ditthi refers to panna cetasika and there are degrees and kinds of panna. From Nyantiloka's dict under 'lokiya': "LOKIYA: 'mundane', ae all those states of consciousness and mental factors - arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One - which are not associated with the supermundane (lokuttara..) paths and fruitions......" **** I told > Dan D, there is no conceptual right view, there is only mundane right > view and supramundane right view. Buddha never coined conceptual > right view neither does the Abhidhamma text I have read. Reading, > listening and studying about dhamma is not conceptual right view, it > is mundane right view. .... S: How do you translate pariyatti in a way that differentiates it from moments of right view in the development of satipatthana? Mundane right view is a broad label;-). There was something Dan and I agreed on and which he asked me to discuss with you - maybe the Samma Ditthi sutta. Not sure, but it was certainly a cop out on his part (in spite of the smooth tongue;-)). Metta, Sarah p.s Actually, the recent thread may not have sounded like it, but Dan and I agree on most the crucial points and it's a joy to discuss the Dhamma with a friend like either of you when we are happy to read passages from any of the same texts. No need to tie one harm behind my back when I write;-). Ken O, I loved your quotes and comments to others on anatta too. ======= 38802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:51am Subject: 6 poems (really 9) Dear Group, Perhaps you may enjoy these poems written when the poet was a novice Buddhist nun: http://tinyurl.com/5q5uk The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada Bhikkhuni and is known as Charlotte Sudhamma Bhikkhuni. http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2003a/radiance.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38803 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > Perhaps you may enjoy these poems written when the poet was a novice > Buddhist nun: > http://tinyurl.com/5q5uk > > The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada > Bhikkhuni and is known as Charlotte Sudhamma Bhikkhuni. > http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2003a/radiance.htm Very moving... both the poems and the letter. Thank you very much for sharing this. Metta, Rob M :-) 38804 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi Larry L: I think you are mistranslating dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 <<446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering”>> Digha Nikaya 33 walshe p484 <<"Three kinds of suffering: as pain, as inherent in formations, as due to change.">> MN141 - a snapshot of the sutta on suffering <<"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. >> L: Imo, that characteristic can only be dosa (aversion) consciousness In SN, 12 Nidanaasamyutta, 32(2) The Kalara ".....These three feelings, friends, are impermanent, whatever is impermanent is suffering. L: Concept is error itself and, as such, is the root of all unsatisfactoriness. In SN, 12 Nidanaasamyutta, 10 (10), Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage. << .....while I was still a bodhisatta,....When now will an escape be discern from this suffering [headed by] aging and death?" . . ......Then bikkhus, through careful attention. there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: When there is birth, aging and death comes to be, aging and death has births as its condition . . . "thus with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [comes to be]; with volitional formation as condition, consciouness....Such is the origin of the mass of suffering">> <> Ken O 38805 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). Ken O 38806 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:18am Subject: the anger eater Hi all Thanks for the poems, Christine. I found this encouraging tale related to my recent concerns at the same web site. http://www.hundredmountain.com/Pages/dharmatalk_pages/fall01_buddhatales.html I would like to thank you all in passing for your direct and indirect support as I deal with my demon. I've made it through this day without checking the news. For all the subtleties of Dhamma that is involved, just plain not-watching-the-news for awhile is probably all I need to do, in the short run. I will reply to the posts by Rob K, Nina/Lodewijk and Bhante V in the days to come. Doing so will help condition my continued defeat/de-feeding of that demon. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 38807 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi KenO, --- Ken O wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep > to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like > conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). > .... Actually it's not a phrase I use, but I don't have a problem with it in the right context....(The Samma Ditthi Sutta is not the right context). Let's stick to pariyatti then or suta maya panna or cinta maya panna....But that doesn't mean we have to ban all translations;-). How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? Metta, Sarah ======= 38808 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- but soon > after I > joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said that you > thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I should be > sure > to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all were as > non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by an Asian > academic, > whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e- mail, so > I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I am curious > what it > was - I can't remember. Friend Phil, Okay, now I know what you are referring to. I don't recall stating anything about there being a `control' approach to the Abhidhamma, but I did give you some links to different articles that present a different approach to the Abhidhamma (one more in keeping with the Buddha's teaching, in my opinion). Here are those links again: http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm The author is Y. Karunadasa and I approve of his approach to Abhidhamma because he writes, in part, "But the dhamma theory was intended from the start to be more than a mere hypothetical scheme. It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation and insight." The Abhidhamma as a guide for meditative experience I can accept; the Abhidhamma as a substitute for meditation, I cannot accept. Metta, James 38809 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Thanks James, I'll read them with great interest. (And more understanding thank I could have first time around.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "buddhatrue" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 7:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > > Hi James, and all > > Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- > but soon > > after I > > joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said > that you > > thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I > should be > > sure > > to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all > were as > > non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by > an Asian > > academic, > > whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e- > mail, so > > I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I > am curious > > what it > > was - I can't remember. > > > Friend Phil, > > Okay, now I know what you are referring to. I don't recall stating > anything about there being a `control' approach to the Abhidhamma, > but I did give you some links to different articles that present a > different approach to the Abhidhamma (one more in keeping with the > Buddha's teaching, in my opinion). Here are those links again: > > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > > The author is Y. Karunadasa and I approve of his approach to > Abhidhamma because he writes, in part, "But the dhamma theory was > intended from the start to be more than a mere hypothetical scheme. > It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in > meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation > and insight." > > The Abhidhamma as a guide for meditative experience I can accept; > the Abhidhamma as a substitute for meditation, I cannot accept. > > Metta, James > 38810 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? Mundane right view :) Ken O 38811 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? > > Mundane right view :) .... How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)? :) Metta, Sarah ======= 38812 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:34am Subject: Re: Pali request Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the > "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" > that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it > tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time > I brush my teeth. > > Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. > ===== I am no Pali expert, but here it is without the accents (I think): netam mama nesohamasmi na meso attati' eva metam yathabutam sammappannaya datthabbam Metta, Rob M :-) 38813 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Ken (and DN) - In a message dated 11/25/04 4:03:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > HI Howard and DN > > Expositor pg 144, > < through its own cause, known as coinciding of three (basis, object and > consciouness). This is shown here and there by the sutta phrase > 'Contact is the collision of three'. And in this phrase the meaning is > that it is contact because of the collision of the three, but is > should not be understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus > because it is declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, > therefore its manifestation is called coinciding. But if > manifestation be taken in the sense of effect, contact has feeling as > effect. That is, contact produces feeling, causes it to rise. Just > as it is heat in heated lae, and not the coals, or external cause, > which produces softness, so albeit there is another cause, viz the > mental object and the basis, it is the consciousness in which feeling > inheres which produces it, and not that [external] cause.>> > > Ken O > > =============================== This doesn't surprise me. The Expositor is commentary to the Dhammasangani, the 1st book of Abhidhamma, and it presents the Abhidhammic view. My point was and remains that the Abhidhammic view of contact as being something other than the coming of the three is a view that does not appear in the suttas. In the suttas, contact is specifically defined as the coming together of the three. Actually, I should be careful in talking of "the Abhidhammic view of contact". It is this commentary that gives a view of the distinctness of contact from the confluence or coinciding. I am *assuming* that is based on the Dhammasangani also viewing the cetasika of contact as distinct from the event of coincidence. But perhaps that is not so, and the distinction is made only in the commentary. (It's not convenient for me to get hold of my copy of the Dhms at the moment for a search.) In any case, the suttas give phassa as the meeting of three. Specifically, in MN 148, there is the following, where I change the language to include all 6 sense bases in a group of statements six-fold shorter: << 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the [sense organ & sense object] there arises consciousness at [that sense organ]. The meeting of the three is contact. ... >> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38814 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:01am Subject: The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi, all - I've been assuming that the Expositor is commentary on the Dhammasangani. Am I in error? Is it the Dispeller of Delusion that is commentary to the Dhammasangani instead? If so, please remind what the Expositor is commentary to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38815 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 6:03:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, all - I've been assuming that the Expositor is commentary on the Dhammasangani. Am I in error? Is it the Dispeller of Delusion that is commentary to the Dhammasangani instead? If so, please remind what the Expositor is commentary to. With metta, Howard Hi Howard The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. TG 38816 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Howard I've gone through this description of contact a couple of times and I don't see the problem of it not corresponding to the Suttas. Its trying to be very technical in a somewhat hard to follow way, but as far as I can tell it speaks to the -- sense object, sense base, and consciousness -- needing to make contact, converge, coincide, etc. in order for feeling to arise. It goes on to detail that feeling is part of what consciousness is. As I understand it, it is trying to say that feeling is not felt by a sense object or even a sense base, but that feeling is "felt as consciousness": indicating a direct relationship between 'consciousness and feeling.' It also indicates that it is not as direct a relationship between 'sense object and feeling' or 'sense base and feeling.' In other words...a sense object such as a desk (or firmness) does not "itself" feel. Nor does the body "itself" feel. But rather it is feeling that does the feeling as part of consciousness. I think that's acceptable. Can't see anything else that might be controversial. What is it about it that seems wrong? BTW, Happy Thanksgiving! TG In a message dated 11/25/2004 5:55:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: HI Howard and DN > > Expositor pg 144, > < through its own cause, known as coinciding of three (basis, object and > consciouness). This is shown here and there by the sutta phrase > 'Contact is the collision of three'. And in this phrase the meaning is > that it is contact because of the collision of the three, but is > should not be understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus > because it is declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, > therefore its manifestation is called coinciding. But if > manifestation be taken in the sense of effect, contact has feeling as > effect. That is, contact produces feeling, causes it to rise. Just > as it is heat in heated lae, and not the coals, or external cause, > which produces softness, so albeit there is another cause, viz the > mental object and the basis, it is the consciousness in which feeling > inheres which produces it, and not that [external] cause.>> > > Ken O > > =============================== This doesn't surprise me. The Expositor is commentary to the Dhammasangani, the 1st book of Abhidhamma, and it presents the Abhidhammic view. My point was and remains that the Abhidhammic view of contact as being something other than the coming of the three is a view that does not appear in the suttas. In the suttas, contact is specifically defined as the coming together of the three. Actually, I should be careful in talking of "the Abhidhammic view of contact". It is this commentary that gives a view of the distinctness of contact from the confluence or coinciding. I am *assuming* that is based on the Dhammasangani also viewing the cetasika of contact as distinct from the event of coincidence. But perhaps that is not so, and the distinction is made only in the commentary. (It's not convenient for me to get hold of my copy of the Dhms at the moment for a search.) In any case, the suttas give phassa as the meeting of three. Specifically, in MN 148, there is the following, where I change the language to include all 6 sense bases in a group of statements six-fold shorter: << 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the [sense organ & sense object] there arises consciousness at [that sense organ]. The meeting of the three is contact. ... >> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). With metta, Howard 38817 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Could you tell me which part in the abhidhammatthasangaha as I cannot > locate it. According to CMA on the Compendium of Categories Guide > to 35, .... The four mental aggregates of Supramundane plane are not > aggregate of clinging because they entirely transcend the range of > clinging; that is, they cannot become objects of greed or wrong view. > It did not mention they are not dukkha, it just without clinging. > > > > Ken O Hi Ken, See CMA VII,40 p.290: "Mental states associated with the paths and fruits are excluded from the four truths." Also B. Bodhi's note to VII,39 p.289: "Concisely, the noble truth of suffering comprises all PHENOMENA of the three MUNDANE planes of existence except craving." [emphasis mine] Larry 38818 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 10:59:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. > > The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > > TG > ==================== Thanks. Glad I wasn't off base about The Expositor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38819 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Rob, Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I missed it. The point I was trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. The implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual response informs or cues javana cittas. One might even say concept is the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. Nina seems to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > I would like to butt in here... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... > > writes: > > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > > > > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > > > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > > > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > > > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika > (desire > > > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without > its > > > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. > > ===== > > We might be mixing up terms here. Can I suggest that we agree on: > - Citta (with a "C"): is the paramattha dhamma aka vinnana > - citta (with a "c")" is a mental state, a collection of Citta + > cetasikas > > The function of Citta is always the same (in all cittas). The > function of Citta is always to be the forerunner of cetasikas; to > preside over and be accompanied by the cetasikas (see CMA p29). > > Not only does Citta always have the same function, each of the > cetasiksas within the citta always has the same function. For > example, the cetasika lobha always has the function of "sticking". > > If within a citta, the Citta and all the cetasikas have fixed > functions, how could there be any variation? Eye-consciousness citta > and ear-consciousness citta both have Citta and the exact same set > of cetasikas. They are different because they have a different > object and a different base. In other words, object and base play a > role in making one citta different from another. > > Accumulations play an extremely important role in making one citta > different from another. The greed-rooted javana citta has a set of > cetasikas each with their own function. The relative STRENGTH of the > various cetasikas will be determined by accumulations. This is why > we can have degrees of attachment and degrees of kamma. > > You are correct to say that the function of javana cittas will > always be the same (generate kamma for non-Arahants). However, the > type of kamma and the strength of kamma generated will vary all over > the map based on accumulations and the object involved. > > Trying to define the function of the citta in the citta process > solely by considering the function of the Citta and cetasikas is too > limiting. For example, the Five-Sense-Door Adverting Consciousness, > the Receiving Consciousness and the Investigating Consciousness with > Indifferent Feeling all have exactly the same set of cetasikas, yet > they each perform different functions in the citta process. > > The function of a citta in the citta process is dictated by citta- > niyama (law of citta; a commentarial term not described in any > detail in the commentaries). The Citta and cetasikas involved in the > citta support the citta in the performing of this function by each > performing their own specific function. > > ===== > > > Sense door > > > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little > different, of > > > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > > > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind- > door > > > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > > > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but > that > > > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting > are > > > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > > > processes, respectively. > > ===== > > The cetasika sanna plays the same role in all cittas. In some > cittas, the cetasika sanna may play a more important role in > supporting the function of the citta as defined by citta-niyama. > > The tadarammana citta arises naturally (according to citta-niyama) > because the javana cittas are finished yet the object still > persists. The same past kamma which caused the arising of the > earlier cittas in the process now pushes the tadarammana citta into > existence. The nature of the tadarammana citta (pleasant or > indifferent feeling, strength of various cetasikas) will be > influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support > condition. > > The votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta comes to a conclusion > regarding an object. The investigating function, where sanna and > vicara would play an important role, was done by the santirana > citta. You may find it interesting to note that within the citta > process, votthapana is the first arising of energy (viriya). Perhaps > you may want to characterize votthapana as being more energetic than > previous cittas in the citta process? > > The falling away of the votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta is one of > the conditions for the arising of the set of javana cittas. The type > of javana cittas which arise depends on accumulations. > > Hope that this helps :-) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38820 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:51am Subject: Re: Pali request Dear Friends, I am sorry if I say unacceptable word here. But I think it is 'yathabhutam.' With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the > > "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" > > that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it > > tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time > > I brush my teeth. > > > > Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. > > > ===== > > I am no Pali expert, but here it is without the accents (I think): > > netam mama nesohamasmi na meso attati' eva metam yathabutam > sammappannaya datthabbam > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38821 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 135 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas. Or there are 121 cittas. They are realities. Citta is one reality and cetasikas are other realities. So 121 cittas are different combination of reality citta with realities cetasikas. Among 121 cittas, there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. They are 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 4th jhana cittas, and 8 lokkuttara 5th jhana cittas. 8 of lokuttara 1st jhana cittas are accompanied by 36 cetasikas in total. They are 1. 7 universal cetasikas ( phassa, vedana, cetana, sanna, ekaggata jivitindriya, manasikara ) 2. 6 pakinnaka cetasikas ( vitakka, vicara, piti, viriya, chanda, adhimokkha ) 3. 19 sobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas ( 2 forces of the king cittas ) 1. saddha 1. saddha 2. sati 2. tatramajjhattata 3. hiri 3. alobha 4. ottappa 4. adosa 5. cittapassaddhi 5. kayapassaddhi 6. cittalahuta 6. kayalahuta 7. cittamuduta 7. kayamuduta 8. cittakammannata 8. kayakammannata 9. cittapagunnata 9. kayapagunnata 10. cittujukata 10. kayujukata 4. 3 virati cetasika ( samma-kammanta, samma-vaca, samma-ajiva ) 5. 1 pannindriya cetasika ( panna ) ----------------- 36 cetasikas ( 7 + 6 + 19 + 3 + 1 = 36 ) 2 appamanna cetasika 'karuna' and 'muduta' are not the cetasikas of lokuttara cittas as lokuttara cittas always take nibbana as their object while karuna and mudita always take satta-pannatta as their object. So from 52 total cetasikas 14 akusala have to removed. 52 - 14 = 38 and 38 - 2 ( karuna and mudita ) = 36 cetasikas are cetasikas that always arise with each of 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38822 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 11:39:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > I've gone through this description of contact a couple of times and I don't > see the problem of it not corresponding to the Suttas. Its trying to be > very > technical in a somewhat hard to follow way, but as far as I can tell it > speaks > to the -- sense object, sense base, and consciousness -- needing to make > contact, converge, coincide, etc. in order for feeling to arise. > > It goes on to detail that feeling is part of what consciousness is. As I > understand it, it is trying to say that feeling is not felt by a sense > object or > even a sense base, but that feeling is "felt as consciousness": indicating a > > direct relationship between 'consciousness and feeling.' It also indicates > that it is not as direct a relationship between 'sense object and feeling' > or > 'sense base and feeling.' In other words...a sense object such as a desk > (or > firmness) does not "itself" feel. Nor does the body "itself" feel. But > rather > it is feeling that does the feeling as part of consciousness. I think > that's > acceptable. Can't see anything else that might be controversial. > > What is it about it that seems wrong? BTW, Happy Thanksgiving! > > TG > ====================== Happy Thanksgiving to you too! :-) I don't quite get what you are saying here. What I've been talking about is not the matter of feeling arising in dependence on contact, but on what exactly contact is. That "problem" as I see it is that Abhidhamma says that contact is a cetasika that *manifests* as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and consciousness. But the suttas say that contact *is* the coming together, itself. These are not the same. Also, now that you raise the matter, there seems to be a difference between Abhidhamma and sutta on the matter of vedana as well. In Abhidhamma, any specific vedana is inherent in the object of a mindstate, but in the suttas, specifically in dependent origination, vedana arises in dependence on contact. So the suttas are seeing vedana as depending on contact, not just sense-door object. This also is different. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38823 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/25/2004 10:31:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Happy Thanksgiving to you too! :-) I don't quite get what you are saying here. What I've been talking about is not the matter of feeling arising in dependence on contact, but on what exactly contact is. That "problem" as I see it is that Abhidhamma says that contact is a cetasika that *manifests* as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and consciousness. But the suttas say that contact *is* the coming together, itself. These are not the same. Also, now that you raise the matter, there seems to be a difference between Abhidhamma and sutta on the matter of vedana as well. In Abhidhamma, any specific vedana is inherent in the object of a mindstate, but in the suttas, specifically in dependent origination, vedana arises in dependence on contact. So the suttas are seeing vedana as depending on contact, not just sense-door object. This also is different. With metta, Howard Hi Howard If in doubt, stick with the Sutta version would be my way to go. The whole goal of Abhidhamma as I see it, is to try and detail the Suttas. By trying to add more detail, Abhidhamma may get it right and it may get it wrong. I think the Abhidhamma compilers get it right most of the time; however, it may be more detail than needed and such details may distract the mind from the more important considerations of impermanence, suffering, and no-self. I'm not sure that Abhidhamma doesn't agree with the Sutta positions on the matters you bring up or that if -- in addition to agreeing with them, the also detail them in such a way that might sound contradictory if only a portion of the Abhidhamma teaching is being looked at. Maybe that's a possibility? This could be like the Sutta where the monk and lay person argue over whether the Buddha taught there are 2 kinds of feelings or 3 kinds of feelings. The Buddha said they were both right because he taught it differently to suit different occasions. He also suggested that they were foolish to argue about it because they wouldn't accept what was being properly presented by the other one. Anyway, since I don't know what I'm taking about, that's my final word on this matter. :-) TG 38824 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, op 25-11-2004 18:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:to Rob M: > The point I was > trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and > votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. The > implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual > response informs or cues javana cittas. One might even say concept is > the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. Nina seems > to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a > separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. > > Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? N: Latent tendencies are included in accumulations. The magga-citta eradicates them according to the stage of enlightenment that is reached. Sañña and concept: not so clear. The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, not both. See Rob M's post who explained these matters clearly. Nina. 38825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, thinking about sammaa di.t.thi, right view, we just had today for our Pali lesson a quote from a sutta, given by John Kelly, and taken from ATI. but perhaps not the English, because here dukkha is fortunately not translated as stress. op 25-11-2004 10:44 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: There is lokuttara (supramundane) right view and lokiya (mundane) right > view. Lokiya(mundane) right view can either refer to moments of > satipatthana (five or sixfold path path moments)as referred to in suttas > such as the Samma Ditthi Sutta as Dan rightly pointed out or can refer to > moments of lokiya right view (i.e panna) which have concepts about > realities as objects, or right view accompanying moments of samatha > development, for example, which always have concepts as object. > > As I mentioned, samma ditthi refers to panna cetasika and there are > degrees and kinds of panna. N: quote: Pali - Every few days - [B215] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 11 – Further Readings Ex. 2 (Part 1 of 6) Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi? Ya.m kho, bhikkhave, dukkhe ñaa.na.m, dukkhasamudaye ñaa.na.m, dukkhanirodhe ñaa.na.m, dukkhanirodha-gaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ñaa.na.m. Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi’ti. “And what, monks, is right view? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the arising of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This, monks, is called right view. (D.N.22. Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta.m, M.N.141. Saccavibhangasutta.m 38826 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi Howard and TG, op 25-11-2004 16:57 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. N: Yes. > The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > TG N: Dispeller of Delusion is in Pali: Sammohavinodani. It is the Co to the Book of Analysis, or Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma. Nina. 38827 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dukkha Dear Ken O and Htoo, op 25-11-2004 11:12 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 > <<446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of > expounding the Noble truth of suffering..... Indifferent feeling > and the remaining formations of the three planes are called > “suffering in formations because of being oppressed by rise and > fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and > fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called > “suffering of the formations, by their being included in the Truth > of Suffering. N: I think here is the answer to our discussions, are lokuttara cittas dukkha? This is clear. Ken, I like all your text quotes. We have Larry's footnote: N: the aspect of dukkha as characteristic is one aspect. The aspect of dukkha as noble Truth is another aspect. This is not a contradiction, it merely concerns under *what heading* one views phenomena. We find this also elsewhere: what is the heading? Nina 38828 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, op 25-11-2004 07:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Phil, there is no difference between these > two things! The difference is only a semantic one. What is the > difference between controlling a puppy and training a puppy? At > least by my use of the word, there isn't any difference. However, > you will find if you ask Nina that she doesn't even > believe `training' is possible. Her position is that one should > just read and study the texts, wait for panna (wisdom) to arise > naturally from such an activity, and this will slowly rid the mind > of defilements (over a period of several thousand lifetimes). It is > a very `hands off approach' ;-). And this is what I was speaking > against. The Buddha didn't teach that! N: Oh, what are you saying here;-)) You are outspoken in your words, but you have a good heart. I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! Training, in Pali sekkha. Very important, occurring in the suttas time and again. We should not be heedless. It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that seems very slight. That includes all the perfections. We do not have to think about them or call them by names, they can be developed each moment, also now. We can develop metta when writing, and I noticed before that you know that. For instance, when you were writing to Sarah. I will not defend the Abhidhamma, because there is no need to. Remember our discussions, those were times ;-)) ;-)) Seems so long ago now, doesn't it? I highly appreciate and need the suttas as well. Naresh and I are grateful for any sutta you give to us. Thanks, Nina. 38829 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 11:59:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: N: Dispeller of Delusion is in Pali: Sammohavinodani. It is the Co to the Book of Analysis, or Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma. Nina. Thanks Nina for the correction. I have the book and mis-read it inside, and should have known it was the Vibhanga, but its been a few years since I read it. TG 38830 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 9:29:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > > TG > ==================== Thanks. Glad I wasn't off base about The Expositor. With metta, Howard Hi Howard You weren't off base but I was. In case you didn't catch Nina's correction...The Dispeller of Delusion is translated as Sammohavinodani but it is the commentary to the Vibhanga. Hey, 50% right isn't bad! ;-) TG 38831 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dhamma Greetings Phil, Hope you don't mind my butting in here. You said, "After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the drop of a cushion." This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it takes practice to make perfect. Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it doesn't matter. After you have practiced this for a while it does get easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do is to smile lots more. While they are doing the sitting practice and while they do their daily activities and radiate metta. Smiling is important, a university study proved that when one has a grumpy face that DOESN'T SMILE their thoughts are heavy and mostly unwholesome, and when a person smiles and has a smiling face their mind has uplifting and wholesome thoughts in it. I am talking about a real smile in one's mind, in their eyes, on their lips and smile in their heart. Keep smiling, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:36pm Subject: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hello Bhante, I am somewhat confused here. Smiling is one of the earliest forms of non-verbal communication - used by humans and closely related other species. I am at a loss to understand in what way feigning friendliness or happiness is honest communication. I know I would not trust someone whose verbal signals were a pretense, and were not truthful/real. Perhaps you can help me to understand your perspective on this? Or maybe give the link to any research? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > Hope you don't mind my butting in here. > > You said, "After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were > able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be > very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether > we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't > think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the > drop of a cushion." > > This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take > practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is > that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a > spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the > breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta > to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed > metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all > beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for > the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating > feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, > happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for > example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm > then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It > does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it > takes practice to make perfect. > > Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it > doesn't matter. After you have practiced this for a while it does get > easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do > is to smile lots more. While they are doing the sitting practice and > while they do their daily activities and radiate metta. Smiling is > important, a university study proved that when one has a grumpy face that > DOESN'T SMILE their thoughts are heavy and mostly unwholesome, and when a > person smiles and has a smiling face their mind has uplifting and > wholesome thoughts in it. I am talking about a real smile in one's mind, > in their eyes, on their lips and smile in their heart. > > Keep smiling, > Bhante Vimalaramsi 38833 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:54pm Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dhamma Greetings Christine, I said that the smile must be real in one's mind, in one's eyes, on one's lips, and in one's heart. There is a difference. And when done in this way it does change one's perspective of the whole world. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38834 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Friend Nina, Nina: You are outspoken in your words, but you have a good heart. James: Thank you. I believe that you have a good heart also, a very good heart. I don't mean to attack you in anyway and it probably isn't good to specifically bring you up in the third person (wrong speech), but you related specifically to the discussion I was having. Also, being outspoken doesn't equate to having a bad heart in my opinion; just look at Lord Buddha, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. Nina: I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! James: No, of course not. You are studying the texts and writing, as I stated. But is that enough? How often do you write about renunciation, including renunciation of the five senses and their objects? What about the development of mental culture: jhana, tranquility, and supernormal insight? Nina: It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. James: I believe that the emphasis should be on renunciation (non- clinging) of dhammas, not just `understanding' them. Nina: Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that seems very slight. James: Now, this you are very correct about and I apologize for not mentioning this about your approach earlier. You do support the Vinaya and the following of precepts for monks and laypeople. But again, is that enough? Nina: That includes all the perfections. We do not have to think about them or call them by names, they can be developed each moment, also now. James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? If this was true, why aren't we all arahants by now? (Reminds me of all those ads for weight loss: Lose Weight without the Work! ;-) Nina: We can develop metta when writing, and I noticed before that you know that. For instance, when you were writing to Sarah. James: Yes, I always enjoyed my friendly banter with Sarah. I miss those good times. Nina: I will not defend the Abhidhamma, because there is no need to. Remember our discussions, those were times ;-)) ;-)) Seems so long ago now, doesn't it? James: Yep, it does seem a long time. We both have been through a lot in a very short period of time, but that's kamma ;-) Nina: I highly appreciate and need the suttas as well. Naresh and I are grateful for any sutta you give to us. James: Oh, I don't give any suttas, those are all from the Buddha. All kudos should go to him ;-). I just like to draw attention to his great work. Metta, James 38835 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Ken O, When you said: "I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it." Bhante*** These are the instructions in meditation that are not only for the advanced practitioner but for the beginner meditator. The way to be able to see the nama-rupa is by beginning with doing this meditation as one gets more and more familiar with this their awareness becomes more clear and eventually they will experience seeing these namas and rupas in the way the Buddha taught. Bhante previously said*** Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characteristics that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characteristics. No I meant to say, that if one simply looks at these three characteristics by themselves, without seeing the framework of dependent origination their insights won't be as deep as they could be (even the anatta). Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38836 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi Thank you always for the feedback > This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take > practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is > that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a > spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the > breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta > to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed > metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all > beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for > the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating > feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, > happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for > example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm > then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It > does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it > takes practice to make perfect. Phil: This is the kind of metta meditation I did for about a year. Moving on to the neutral person, the difficult person, etc. I did experience peace of mind from generating metta for my difficult father-in-law, for Dick Cheney (two different men, BTW) etc. There was peace of mind. But I came to feel that it was not real. I wus just creating comfortt. But we will see. Having better understood realities through Abhidhamma, I may one day return to metta meditation with a better foundation in conditined realities. > Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it > doesn't matter. Phil: If I feel like I'm manufacturing it, but it is arising due to conditions, it doesn't matter. If I *am* manufacturing it, but believe I am not, then it *does* matter a great deal. This is what I will be working out over the years to come. Yes, if we meditate on metta in the morning, it most defintely conditions the arising of what *at least* feels like metta during the day. There is no doubt about that. I have experienced it. I'm sure we all have at some point or other if we have done metta meditation. My concern - and it arose before I came to DSG and discovered Abhidhamma- is that the metta was a form of tranquilizer rather than something related to insight. But we will see. >After you have practiced this for a while it does get > easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do > is to smile lots more. Phil: Sometimes I found that after doing metta meditation I was smiling without knowing it! One day I started my walk to the station and a man said good-morning to me. It is very rare for strangers to greet each other in modern, urban Japan. Then I realized I was smiling, and had been sending off very approachable vibes as a result. This sort of experience means that I am still interested in metta meditation, will still be considering it as a possible right practice for me. But not for now. Now I am interested in metta that arises in daily life. Doing without intentional metta practice in the morning means that I am exposed to a lot more aversion during the day. I think that it takes courage to leave onself exposed to aversion, to see it for what it is. It takes courage to face realities. I came to feel that the way I was practicing metta was a form of hiding from realities. This is not the case for you, or for anyone else. I am just talking about my own experience. But as Howard very astutely said, there may be times when one is very challenged by a specific hindrance or deficiency of a factor (loose paraphrase) that it would be right to cultivate something a bit more intentionally. Forgive me for the loose paraphrase, Howard. I will surely be taking note of the exact words. At that time, I was going through very intense, overwhelming alienation due to be a visible minority in a fairly xenophobic society. (not racist - just fearful) The metta work I did then made it possible to deal with this without falling apart! Now I can face realities better, perhaps, because of the meditation I did then. And I may return to metta meditation someday. Thank you again for your feedback, Bhante. I do appreciate your gentle encouragement re various kinds of meditation, even while I know that they are not right for me at this time. Metta, Phil 38837 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dhamma Greetings Phil, One thing that I have found by doing the relaxing of tightnesses after every wish was it help to allow insights to arise. As I have said before, I do teach this in a different way. I know that most people think that meta just goes to the 3rd jhana, but I teach it to the 4th jhana, then as I teach further and the meditator goes deeper into the meditation they will experience compassion arising on its own and will also experience the fifth jhana (the realm of infinite space), they go deeper and experience sympathic joy and the realm of infinite consciousness, as they continue the experience equanimity and the realm of nothingness. All of these states are in agreement with sutta #111 the Anupada sutta and have insights that lead to the cessation of suffering and eventually Nibbana. So what You can do with the practice of metta is use it as a spring board to much deeper insights and experiences than what some people will tell you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38838 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Nina: "The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, not both." Hi Nina, A spanner in the works: when there is desire or liking (lobha) for a neutral feeling hearing of sound we explain that desire by saying it is due to accumulations. Whatever accumulations are, they are not hearing or sound. Hence, two objects: accumulations and hearing/sound. Are accumulations concept or reality? Larry ps: I suppose we could say accumulations are an influence rather than an object, but at this point I like it the other way better. What are the conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between votthapana and javana? Is there a conditional relation between votthapana and accumulations? 38839 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi all, The Visuddhimagga refers to the following sutta in its description of contact. This sutta metaphorically portrays contact as a mental phenomenon similar to but distinct from consciousness. Here are a couple of snips: "And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do. "And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?" "Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears." "In the same say, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Larry 38840 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah > How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments > of satipatthana)? :) Two ways, one mundane and the one supramundane. It is either or or, there is no 3rd definition. This is to keep things in prespective, just like paramathas and concepts. Ken O 38841 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry (and Nina), I am going to butt in again :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, > not both." > > Hi Nina, > > A spanner in the works: when there is desire or liking (lobha) for a > neutral feeling hearing of sound we explain that desire by saying it is > due to accumulations. Whatever accumulations are, they are not hearing > or sound. Hence, two objects: accumulations and hearing/sound. > > Are accumulations concept or reality? > > Larry > ps: I suppose we could say accumulations are an influence rather than an > object, but at this point I like it the other way better. What are the > conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between > votthapana and javana? Is there a conditional relation between > votthapana and accumulations? If you insist on dividing the world into "realities" and "concepts", then accumulations would have to fit into the "concepts" bucket. The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Specifically, the conditioning factors (things which trigger pakatupanissaya to work) are: - Strong past rupa (28 types) - Strong past mental states (89/121 types) - Strong past cetasikas (52 types) - Some strong past concepts The conditioned factors (things which are influenced because of pakatupanissaya) are: - Current mental state (89/121 types) - Current cetasikas (52 types) The relationship between the conditioning factors and the conditioned factors is called pakatupanissaya or natural decisive support condition. Clearly, the conditioning factors and the conditioned factors fall nicely into your "concept" / "realities" buckets. But how would you categorize pakatupanissaya? My answer is that since it is not a "reality", it must be a "concept". You asked, "What are the conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between votthapana and javana?" As you can see from the definition above, accumulations influence all types of mental states, including votthapana and javana. There are a number of conditions relating votthapana and javana. The falling away of the votthapana mental state is a condition for the arising of the javana mental state through proximity condition, contiguity condition, absence condition and disappearance condition. Larry, I think that the key issue is that the votthapana -> javana transition is no different from any other transition of mental states. You also asked, "Is there a conditional relation between votthapana and accumulations?" As we can see from the definition above, a votthapana mental state can fall into the category of conditioning factors of pakatupanissaya (as can any other mental state). Sorry Larry, I don't think that this is what you want to hear / read... :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38842 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I missed it. The point I was > trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and > votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. ===== I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :-) ===== > The > implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual > response informs or cues javana cittas. ===== If you are saying that accumulations influence javana mental states, then I agree with you... accumulations influence all mental states. ===== > One might even say concept is > the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. > Nina seems > to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a > separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. ===== Mental states in the five sense door process all take realities as object. Mental states in the mind door process almost always take concepts as object (the exception being the conformational mind door process; tadanuvattika manodvaravithi). Wherever the mental state arises, as part of a five sense door process, as part of a mind door process or even as a process-freed mental state, accumulations can always influence the mental state. The type of object that the mental state takes has no impact on the fact that accumulations will influence the mental state. Accumulations are not a separate step; they are integral to the arising of all mental states (votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana included). ===== > > Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? Accumulations continue to operate after path insight. Certain accumulations (accumulations to do akusala) are uprooted and no longer work, but others will continue to work. Why did Sariputta and Mogallana have different personalities? Because of different accumulations which operated on their mental streams. Both were Arahants, but they were unique. I remember reading of a certain Arahant who had a very un-monkish habit of jumping over puddles; this was because he had spent many lifetimes as a monkey. Again, accumulations at work. We must also be careful not to create a sort of "self" out of these accumulations. Metta, Rob M :-) 38843 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Phil, Howard and Rob M, Aversion to akusala thinking and desire for kusala thinking can never bring about kusala thinking. But nor can they prevent kusala thinking from arising in succeeding moments of consciousness. The only cetasika that can prevent kusala thinking is 'wrong understanding.' I think it is fair to say that wrong understanding of the differences between kusala and akusala will, to the extent that it has been accumulated, prevent kusala thinking. Similarly, wrong understanding of the causes of kusala and akusala will, to the extent that it has been accumulated, prevent satipatthana. -------------- > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. > With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with another form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says,train the puppy, not control it. --------------- Harrumph! :-) Belief in control - even if it is control "not to any useful extent," or even if it is given the name "puppy training" - will always be a form of wrong understanding. Kind regards, Ken H PS: I see there have been additions to this thread subsequent to the message I am replying to. I will post this before reading them (and hope I am not insulting too many people). :-) KH 38844 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Harrumph! :-) Belief in control - even if it is control "not to any > useful extent," or even if it is given the name "puppy training" - > will always be a form of wrong understanding. Harrumph! Harrumph! :-) I thought that with my puppy-training analogy that we had finally achieved a breakthrough with a position that we could both support. Specifically: - the mind cannot be controlled - belief that the mind can be controlled could lead to "self view" - accumulations are an important factor in determining the current mental state - accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya) - the conditioning factors for pakatupanissaya are: 1. Strong past rupa 2. Strong past mental states 3. Strong past cetasikas 4. Some strong past concepts - One of the ways in which a rupa / mental state / cetasika / concept can be made "strong" is through repeated action (aka training) In other words, if I sit for an hour a day radiating metta with energy (viriya), faith (saddha), concentration (samadhi), mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna), then this will help to create a "strong past mental state" or a "strong past concept" or a "strong past cetasika (adosa)" which can exert strong influence over future mental states. Ken H, are we still far apart? Metta, Rob M :-) 38845 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya)." Hi Rob, Aha! Well that makes sense and is completely different from the way I was understanding it. I thought accumulations meant habit, repetition, adding together. So this doesn't have anything to do with tadarammana (registration)? Isn't there registration only when there is a strong javana process? What happens to the javana registration after it is registered? I thought registration was a specialized way of "marking the object", that is to say conceptualizing the object, similar to what sanna does. The "object" in this case being the javana cittas and this concept of javana being incorporated into the identity of the nominal object of the javana which a subsequent determining consciousness would determine when a similar object arose. What are the determinations of determining consciousness based on? What exactly is a determination? Can you give an example? I see that the function of sankhara cetasikas is to accumulate. Is that related to natural decisive support condition? Does that mean that feeling and perception don't accumulate? Larry 38846 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 2:54:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > If in doubt, stick with the Sutta version would be my way to go. The whole > > goal of Abhidhamma as I see it, is to try and detail the Suttas. By trying > to > add more detail, Abhidhamma may get it right and it may get it wrong. I > think > the Abhidhamma compilers get it right most of the time; however, it may be > more detail than needed and such details may distract the mind from the more > > important considerations of impermanence, suffering, and no-self. > ---------------------------------- Howard: I agree. -------------------------------- > > I'm not sure that Abhidhamma doesn't agree with the Sutta positions on the > matters you bring up or that if -- in addition to agreeing with them, the > also > detail them in such a way that might sound contradictory if only a portion > of > the Abhidhamma teaching is being looked at. Maybe that's a possibility? > ------------------------------ Howard: I don't *think* so, but of course could be. ------------------------------ > > This could be like the Sutta where the monk and lay person argue over > whether > the Buddha taught there are 2 kinds of feelings or 3 kinds of feelings. The > > Buddha said they were both right because he taught it differently to suit > different occasions. He also suggested that they were foolish to argue > about it > because they wouldn't accept what was being properly presented by the other > one. --------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, hmm. ------------------------------------- > > Anyway, since I don't know what I'm taking about, that's my final word on > this matter. :-) > ------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know what I'm talking about either! ;-)) So ... finis! :-) ----------------------------------- > > TG > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38847 From: Evan Stamatopoulos Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Contact Hi Larry, I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the arising of consciousness. What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. If I have misunderstood, please let me know. With metta, Evan ________________________________ From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] Sent: Fri 26/11/2004 12:41 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi all, The Visuddhimagga refers to the following sutta in its description of contact. This sutta metaphorically portrays contact as a mental phenomenon similar to but distinct from consciousness. Here are a couple of snips: "And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do. "And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?" "Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears." "In the same say, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Larry 38848 From: naresh gurwani Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Dear Nina When we are born we are not born with this defilements or impurities...this develops as we grow older or is it tht we are born with it ? As as a child we dont diferientiate between any human being and so mind is so pure. i understand this life we are living is an impression of all conditions, we understand this but again we forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still the same thing happens. And regarding god, it is dificult to not accept that ther eis no supernatural power which controls us as if we consider the great epics like Bhagwat Gita, Kuran , Bible which still people follow & they get benifited. So pls comment on this matter also. And where do i get more understanding of buddha teachings and where do i find the source from Pls reply back Naresh !! --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > op 24-11-2004 04:56 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y...: > > > > Where do i read suttas from ?? > Nina: You probably have no books over there in > Curacao. Suttas are on line > and kind people here can give you links. Also on > this forum quotes of suttas > are given, like Bhante Vimalaramsi today. Sutta > reading is not easy, many > questions will come up, but that is good. 38849 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :-)" Hi Rob, I can see that as long as there is a conceptual "take" on the object supplied by a sanna-like process before it reaches javana. It just doesn't make sense to me to desire a reality. It seems illogical, misperceived, oxymoronic. Larry 38850 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) - My opinion these can be both mundane and supramundane (except for Arahants). Mundane applicable as long as one still does not obtain the supramundane stage be it reading a book etc :). Keep it simple - this is my style :). Just like A Sujin said it is just nama and rupa - simplicity is to me an impt key to lot of understanding. Ken O 38851 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Hi Joop In fact all the planes of existence have dukkha :). Which cittas and cetasikas apply to animals - that I do not know, but if I come across that in my readings, I will send to you. All the akusala cittas will definitely be with animals and I think also kusala just that cittas can be very weak. Compassion can also be there because some animals I remember able to foster young orphans animals (i think it is whale) Ken O 38852 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Hi Phil If I remember correctly, yoniso-manisakara is the same as panna. If I am wrong, someone please correct me. If I come across more information on this, I will sent to you. Ken O 38853 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Contact Evan: "Hi Larry, I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the arising of consciousness. What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. If I have misunderstood, please let me know." Hi Evan, The way I read it whatever is painful has to be a mental phenomenon because pain is a mental phenomenon. Nice to meet you. Larry 38854 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that > sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) > mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) > plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental > state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :- )" > > Hi Rob, > > I can see that as long as there is a conceptual "take" on the object > supplied by a sanna-like process before it reaches javana. It just > doesn't make sense to me to desire a reality. It seems illogical, > misperceived, oxymoronic. As I am sure you know, the Sakadagami weakens sensuous clinging while the Anagami eliminates sensuous clinging. But what is meant by this term, "sensuous clinging"? Sensuous clinging is clinging to a sense object (a reality). It happens at an almost primordial level. Imagine that you are meditating in a very quiet place. Suddenly there is some sort of noise from the next room. Can you not detect your mind jumping onto that object? The ear loves to hear. The ear wants to hear. The ear craves hearing. This is sensuous clinging. Sensuous clinging arises before you have named the object, before the object has become a concept. Metta, Rob M :-) 38855 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Hi Ken O / Joop, Mind if I intrude...? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > In fact all the planes of existence have dukkha :). Which cittas and > cetasikas apply to animals - that I do not know, but if I come > across that in my readings, I will send to you. All the akusala > cittas will definitely be with animals and I think also kusala just > that cittas can be very weak. Compassion can also be there because > some animals I remember able to foster young orphans animals (i think > it is whale) > Ken O My draft book (available from download from the files section) lists the mental states in all planes (Appendix III). It also lists the cetasikas in each mental state (Appendix II). To summarize the mental states which can arise in animals, they are all kamavacara mental states except #30 (smile producing citta of an Arahant), wholesome resultant mental states (i.e. bhavanga) and wholesome functional mental states (i.e. only for Arahants). Yes, animals can have kusala mental states. Metta, Rob M :-) 38856 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > > How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments > > of satipatthana)? :) > > Two ways, one mundane and the one supramundane. It is either or or, > there is no 3rd definition. This is to keep things in prespective, > just like paramathas and concepts. ..... S: It can't be supramundane because it is '5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)'. For supramundane samma ditthi, there must be 8fold path factors. That leaves you with a translation of 'mundane right view'. That's good. I'll just remind you that you also gave the same translation for pariyatti which is not satipatthana:) S:>> How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? > K:> Mundane right view :) .... You also said: K:> I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep > to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like > conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). .... S: I'm glad you're not confused:-/ Metta, Sarah ====== 38857 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, Yes, I'm all for keeping it simple too:-) --- Ken O wrote: > Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning > (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) - My opinion these > can be both mundane and supramundane (except for Arahants). ... S: ...but not quite that simple:-) Supramundane refers to lokuttara cittas which take nibbana as object. Pativedha only, I think - not the above. So back to mundane pariyatti and patipatti. .... > Mundane > applicable as long as one still does not obtain the supramundane > stage be it reading a book etc :). .... S: Lokiya (mundane) refers to 'all those states of consciousness and mental factors - arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One - which are not associated with the superamundane (lokuttara)paths and fruition...' .... >Keep it simple - this is my style > :). Just like A Sujin said it is just nama and rupa - simplicity is > to me an impt key to lot of understanding. .... S: Simple but correct is best:) Metta, Sarah ===== 38858 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 59 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** When we recognize someone’s voice, this is actually the result of different processes of cittas which experience objects through the sense-door and through the mind-door. At each moment there is saññå which performs its function. There are moments of hearing of what appears through the ears, of sound, and when we think of someone’s voice there are cittas which experience concepts. The hearing conditions the thinking, we could not think of a voice if there were not hearing. It is the same when we think we ‘see’ a person. There is thinking of a concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. The recognition of a person is the result of many different processes of citta and each moment of citta is accompanied by saññå. There is seeing which experiences visible object and after the eye-door process has been completed visible object is experienced through the mind-door. There are other mind-door processes of cittas which experience concepts. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38859 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, (sorry: I forgot to get back here - it's been a popular thread:/) --- ericlonline wrote: > > S: And what is this 'I'? > > ..... > > I mean I AM. You doubt your existence? .... S: What is 'I' and 'I AM'? Is it seeing or hearing or what? ..... > I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping > at objects and all that is left is I AM, then > can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! > The illusion is finally seen thru. .... Grasping is lobha, so is lobha 'I AM'? So is it 'I' that quits grasping too? What reality is this? So the illusion of 'I AM' is left and seen to be non-existent by what or whom – ‘I’ again? Metta, Sarah p.s Ken O, maybe you can help me with these ‘simple’ riddles too;-/ ======= 38860 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah and Eric > ..... > > I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping > > at objects and all that is left is I AM, then > > can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! > > The illusion is finally seen thru. > .... k: Aiya, as long as there is I am, there is still grasping. It should be the other way round, when it quits grapsing at a I (as long as there is an I, we will not be able to see the three marks, what are left are only objects (paramatha dhammas only). Illusion can only be seen through when the I is eliminated and not the other way round because paramatha dhammas are real not imaginery. Keep it simple :) Oops not to forget the correct part. Ken O 38861 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural > decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya)." > > Hi Rob, > > Aha! Well that makes sense and is completely different from the way I > was understanding it. I thought accumulations meant habit, repetition, > adding together. So this doesn't have anything to do with tadarammana > (registration)? ===== Accumulations impact all mental states, including tadarammana. ===== > Isn't there registration only when there is a strong > javana process? What happens to the javana registration after it is > registered? I thought registration was a specialized way of "marking the > object", that is to say conceptualizing the object, similar to what > sanna does. ===== Tadarammana mental states only arise as part of a sense-door process taking a "very great" object or as part of a mind-door process taking a "clear" object. When, for instance, a person looks at the radiant moon on a cloudless night, he gets a faint glimpse of the surrounding stars as well. He focuses his attention on the moon, but he cannot avoid the sight of stars around. The moon is regarded as a very great object (tadarammana mental states will arise), while the stars are regarded as minor objects (tadarammana mental states will not arise). Both moon and stars are perceived by the mind at different moments. In the case of a very great object, the vibrating bhavanga arose after a single instance of past bhavanga. In this case, when the javana mental states have finished, the object (which always lasts for 17 mind-moments) is taken by tadarammana mental states. Tadarammana mental states are vipaka, the resultant of the same kamma which caused the sense-consciousness mental state, the receiving mental state and the investigating mental state. ===== > The "object" in this case being the javana cittas and this > concept of javana being incorporated into the identity of the nominal > object of the javana which a subsequent determining consciousness would > determine when a similar object arose. ===== All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to change part way through a process. ===== > > What are the determinations of determining consciousness based on? What > exactly is a determination? Can you give an example? ===== I view the determining (votthapana) mental state as being similar to the five sense door adverting (avajjana) mental state. Both are functional. In a mind door process, the determining (votthapana) mental state is called the mind door adverting mental state because it performs the same function as the sense door adverting mental state does in the sense door process. Let us first consider the function of the adverting mental state. Prior to the adverting mental state, there are vipaka mental states (bhavanga) taking some past object. Following the adverting mental state is the sense door consciousness mental state taking the current rupa as object. The function of the adverting mental state is to change the direction of the flow of the process; changing the object from the old to the new. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-pointedness (ekaggata) comes into play. The mind concentrates attention (manasikara) on the source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention (manasikara) is the prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness (ekaggata). This concentration of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external object. Attention (manasikara) makes the mind different from the previous (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind [gasp!] to advert to the new object. All this takes energy, which is why this mental state needs the cetasika viriya. So what influences the function of the adverting mental state? Our friend pakatupanissaya. I don't use the term accumulations, as this term implies something in the distant past; a very recent rupa / nama / concept can be strong because of the fact that it is recent. For example, if I have a bad day at the office, the relatively recent mental states will impact my mental states when I get home through pakatupanissaya; in other words pakatupanissaya is bigger than accumulations. Now let us consider the function of the determining (votthapana) mental state in a sense-door process. Prior to the determining mental state, there are passive vipaka mental states (sense- consciousness, receiving, investigating). Following the determining mental state are the active javana mental states. Wheras the adverting state allows the change of object, the determining state allows the change from passive to active modes. The type of javana and the strength of the javana that arises is not fixed at the determining mental state; these things are fixed by pakatupanissaya when the javana mental state arises. Here is the analogy of the man asleep under the mango tree to illustrate the function of the adverting and determining mental states. The adverting mental state corresponds to the moment that the man awakes (because of the falling mango). It represents the change from "sleeping" mode to "taking the mango" mode. The determining mental state arises after the man has picked up the mango (receiving), pressed and smelled the mango (investigating). The determining mental state is the moment when the man decides that the mango is ready to eat. Of course, the javana mental states are the eating of the mango. The tadarammana mental state is when the man notes that the taste of the mango still remains in his saliva, even after the last piece of mango has been eaten. The man swallows his saliva as an after-taste, truly finishing the mango experience. ===== > > I see that the function of sankhara cetasikas is to accumulate. Is that > related to natural decisive support condition? Does that mean that > feeling and perception don't accumulate? ===== Not sure about this one. The definition of pakatupanissaya states that strong past cetasikas can be conditioning states and this must include feeling and perception. Metta, Rob M :-) 38862 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:36am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Rob M, Thanks for your reply. After a cordial exchange of harrumphs, you wrote: ---------------- > I thought that with my puppy-training analogy that we had finally achieved a breakthrough with a position that we could both support. > ----------------- Rob, you don't read all your messages! Every time you have put forward your 'habit condition' theory I have pooh-poohed it. (A good word while we're on a puppy-training theme.) I have said, "But if you, as a typical worldling, are sitting in meditation having thoughts of self and lobha for Path-progress (and dosa for 'having to do this while your mates are out having a good time' etc.), then what kind of habit are you developing?" The answer is, of course, 'an akusala habit' (which is not a good conditioning factor for enlightenment)! ------------------------- RM: > Specifically: - the mind cannot be controlled ------------------------- I'll give that a tick. Some people might protest and quote where the Buddha extols 'a controlled mind,' but you and I know what we mean. :-) ----------------------- RM: > - belief that the mind can be controlled could lead to "self view" ----------------------- Another tick; but is there any "could" about it? In one sutta (often quoted on DSG) the Buddha said, "If consciousness [body, feelings, perceptions and volitions] were self, it would be possible to decree, 'let my consciousness be thus!' [etc.]." So it would seem that the idea of self and the idea of control always go hand in hand. -------------- RM: > - accumulations are an important factor in determining the current mental state > -------------- Yes (I think I know what you mean). --------------------------- RM: > - accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya) - the conditioning factors for pakatupanissaya are: 1. Strong past rupa 2. Strong past mental states 3. Strong past cetasikas 4. Some strong past concepts - One of the ways in which a rupa / mental state / cetasika / concept can be made "strong" is through repeated action (aka training) > -------------------------- I defer to your superior knowledge. :-) ---------------- RM: > In other words, if I sit for an hour a day radiating metta with energy (viriya), faith (saddha), concentration (samadhi), mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna), then this will help to create a "strong past mental state" or a "strong past concept" or a "strong past cetasika (adosa)" which can exert strong influence over future mental states. > ----------------- Boy, will it ever! I think if you can do that for one *second* per day you will be on the verge of enlightenment. How is it done? How does one decree, "Let my mental states be thus?" :-) In other words, we are back where we started: You can't escape samsara and you can't develop wholesome qualities by wanting to. The only factors for enlightenment are; association with wise friends (study), hearing the true Dhamma (study), wise consideration of the true Dhamma (study) and practice (satipatthana) in accordance with what you have studied. Kind regards, Ken H 38863 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, .... S: It can't be supramundane because it is '5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)'. For supramundane samma ditthi, there must be 8fold path factors. k: Sorry boss, forget about the 5fold part. You are right supramundane is 8fold :). But satipatthana is for both supramundane and mundane as those who are not yet Arahant, still have to practise that. :) Sarah : I'll just remind you that you also gave the same translation for pariyatti which is not satipatthana:) k: Can you give me a text that support this position :). If pariyatti learning is not about satipatthana in the mundane sense, then there is no salvation, dont bother reading the text then :). A simple reading of the text or listening to dhamma can be both ways, kusala or akusala, there can be moments of satipatthana because it conditioned mundane right view. > Supramundane refers to lokuttara cittas which take nibbana as > object. Pativedha only, I think - not the above. So back to mundane > pariyatti and patipatti. > .... k: Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to say that Nobles One that are not Arahants, still have to have to do pariyati and patipatti. I still have to say satipatthana is also supramundane as lokuttara cittas are the emboidement of the perfection of the 8fold. Ken O 38864 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:44am Subject: HEY AZITA! Hello Azita, Yes, I am receiving your off-list posts. I have replied to them all - loved the one about Chittapala, I cried too.:-) I have no idea what mara has taken over parts of my computer - currently it also won't open .pdf files or read power point. Can you please check that your anti-spam programme recognises my new email address? cforsyth1 @ bigpond.com (remove spaces from before and after the @). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38865 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:38am Subject: Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Phil, I got inspired when I came across the Pali term dhammanijjhaanakkhanti on tape and remembered the post of Nina’s you asked both she and I about. I’m pretty sure it’s this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35660 Reflective acceptance, seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and developing as much kusala as possible. We can talk about the value of any kusala, but not just following without any understanding. Look forward to your further reflections. Metta, Sarah p.s. I hope you also saw my post to you (and others) on ‘detachment’ with reminders from India (nov 15th) #38303 as I think it was sent when you were having computer problems. =================================== 38866 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 59 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (f) Hello all > When we recognize someone's voice, this > is actually the result of different processes of cittas which experience > objects through the sense-door and through the mind-door. At > each moment there is saññå which performs its function. There > are moments of hearing of what appears through the ears, of > sound, and when we think of someone's voice there are cittas > which experience concepts. The hearing conditions the thinking, > we could not think of a voice if there were not hearing. > > It is the same when we think we 'see' a person. There is thinking of a > concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the seeing of visible > object. The recognition of a person is the result of many different > processes of citta and each moment of citta is accompanied by > saññå. There is seeing which experiences visible object and after > the eye-door process has been completed visible object is > experienced through the mind-door. There are other mind-door > processes of cittas which experience concepts. Having hearing and seeing together like this reminded me of Nina's example of the opera singer, how we experience an opera singer through different doors, perhaps liking what we see but not what we hear, or the other way around. There are different processes going on, through different doors. Though there is only one at a time, it feels to us as though they were happening simultaneously So let's someone coming our way on the sidewalk waves and calls our name. In this case, I guess the eye door processes and the ear door processes would be arising and falling one after another. But the eye door processes would seem to be dominant. We rely more on visual information than auditory information, don't we? Eye-eye-eye-ear-ear-eye-eye-eye-ear-ear-eye-eye-eye-eye (not to mention the mind door processes) Would it depend on the individual's accumulation which would seem dominant, the visual information or the auditory information? Or the conditioning power of the objects? By object decisive support condition, or natural decisive support condition? But ...what we see is vipaka. So if an eye door process has fallen away, and an ear door process has intervened, is the following eye door process, if there is one, vipaka from the same kamma as the eye door process that had fallen away two processes back? Presumably there are dozens or hundreds or thousands or millions of eye door processes in what we consider a single stretch of looking at something. Are they all vipaka of the same kamma that brings pleasant or unpleasant objects our way? It's fascinating to know, even intellectually, that a moment as simple as looking up and seeing someone walk by is loaded with so many momentary processes. Metta, Phil p.s Sorry - I know the above jumble isn't about sanna. 38867 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: ... Hallo Rob and Ken O (and all), Rob wrote: My draft book (available from download from the files section) lists the mental states in all planes (Appendix III). It also lists the cetasikas in each mental state (Appendix II). To summarize the mental states which can arise in animals, they are all kamavacara mental states except #30 (smile producing citta of an Arahant), wholesome resultant mental states (i.e. bhavanga) and wholesome functional mental states (i.e. only for Arahants). Yes, animals can have kusala mental states. Joop: Thanks, Rob. But I couln't find Appendix III in the version I downloaded november 18 Another set of questions about it: - You wrote on page 66 of your book "The intention which is expressed through bodily intimation and vocal intimation can be understood by others, even by animals." Do you mean "understood by all animals" or just the higher ones (for example the womb-born in Abhidhamma-terms) ? - I have understood that all rupa's can be experienced by animals. But how about the vocal intimations 'broadcasted' by animals, do they have that faculty, or only a few species or only in a very narrow way? I mean: what is the Abhidhamma stating about it, although it aren't of course biology-readers. - Although "rupa" is not the same as "physical appearance", their are physical differences between animals and human beings (humans have bigger brains); how are these physical differences been 'translated' is differences on the rupa-level ? - Can animals make new kamma ? - Can animals medidate ? - How can animals (after their dead) get human beings ? I asked this questions and those of my other message because I wanted to get more clear the differences between human beings and animals on the spiritual level. What makes 'us' (I use this word with great hesitation) human beings special in the universe? Metta Joop 38868 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:59am Subject: AnapanaSati Full-Moon Day! Friends: Today, on this full day, the Buddha was quite satisfied with the mental progress of the monks & therefore spoke the Anapanasati Sutta. This quite refined meditation technique he himself used for Enlightenment! A unique & excellent thing in itself - A Lamp - shining bright everywhere. Awareness by Breathing Anapanasati Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 118 A gift of Dhamma. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccayana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda & other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder Bhikkhus were teaching & instructing. Some elder Bhikkhus were teaching & instructing ten Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing twenty Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing thirty Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing forty Bhikkhus. The new Bhikkhus, being taught & instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, were successively discriminating significant distinctions. Now on that occasion the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of Bhikkhus. Surveying the silent community of Bhikkhus, he addressed them: <........> For further study of this excellent meditation method praised by all Buddhas: "Mindfulness of Breathing" Classic Anapanasati meditation manual of all the canonical root texts on the subject translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. BPS. 1998. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404502 On this special Buddhist observance day: Anapasati Day see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html#anapanasati Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38869 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Hello Naresh > And where do i get more understanding of buddha > teachings and where do i find the source from Most people turn to access to insight, which offers a great wealth of suttas. I am linking you now to one of the collections they have, entitled "Three Cardinal Discourses of the Budda" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel017.html It includes... 1) The Dhamma-cakka-ppavattana-sutta. This was the Buddha's first discourse, to an audience of five very lucky monks! In it, he teaches the middle way and the four noble truths. If we were wise, we would would spend years just with this one! But I start every day with it, at least, looking through different parts of it, reflecting on it. 2) The Anatta-lakkhana-sutta . Who knows how many lifetimes it will take us to directly know anatta, not-self? But by reflecting on this sutta every day we can get a very helpful basic understanding of it. 3) The Aditta-pariyaya-sutta This is a wonderful sermon that helps us see that the world is burning with the fires of lust, hatred and delusion through the six doors of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind. There is a very encouraging conclusion that we can find liberation from this self-created inferno! There is also commentary to go with these suttas. They are wonderful suttas, Naresh. I hope they are helpful for you. And I hope I will be wise enough to spend more time reflecting on them instead of rushing off to find more and more new suttas to devour! Metta, Phil 38870 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Sarah Thanks Sarah! Yes, that was the term I was thinking of. What a great post. You know, I just can't help but say how much I enjoy reading Nina's posts! Nina>>>>Bhikkhu Bodhi explains about khanti in his translation of the Perfections of the Bodhisatta. There is a kind of khanti, patience, that is reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma, dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. It is intellectual acceptance of doctrines that are not yet completely clear to the understanding. He says, it is a I think that there are sufficient points of the Dhamma we can verify now, so that we have confidence. Is it not true that there is a growing understanding of the different kusala cittas and akusala cittas that arise? Phil: For me, there is this acceptance of doctrines that are *not at all* clear either! Now, some here would call that blind faith, or whatever, but I recently found a sutta that very nicely captures the importance of faith but also how it is not necessary to give up "protecting" the truth. Now what was it.... Here it is. Just a bit of it. I haven't studied the sutta in depth. From MN 95: "If a man has faith, then he guards truth when he says "My faith is thus," but on that account draws no unreserved conclusion, "Only this is true, the other is wrong." In this way he guards the truth; but there is as yet no discovery of truth." We can have faith in something that we cannot yet begin to fathom based on, as Nina says, those sufficient points that we can verify through experience now, and also on the knowledge that we are guarding the truth, we are not drawing "unreserved conclusions." But we are not standing back and getting tied up in reservations. I think of my feelings about metta meditation, as I wrote to Bhante V. Maybe at this point the reservations have outweighed the faith, and I can't let go of them. I can't take that leap of faith when it comes to meditation, because of the reservations. On the other hand, I have yet to develop as many reservations with respect to Abhidhamma, though there are wisely some. But not enough to prevent faith from arising. There is "as yet no discovery of truth." When that comes, there are no more reservations. Technically speaking, I suppose that only comes at sotapanna. When there is no more doubt. Metta. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil > > Hi Phil, > > I got inspired when I came across the Pali term dhammanijjhaanakkhanti on > tape and remembered the post of Nina's you asked both she and I about. I'm > pretty sure it's this one: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35660 > > Reflective acceptance, seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and > developing as much kusala as possible. We can talk about the value of any > kusala, but not just following without any understanding. > > Look forward to your further reflections. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s. I hope you also saw my post to you (and others) on 'detachment' with > reminders from India (nov 15th) #38303 as I think it was sent when you > were having computer problems. > =================================== 38871 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Phil, I'm glad I found the right one - I had been following a red herring in my search efforts before by searching 'vinaya' which you'd mentioned. I agree with you about this great post and Nina's other writings. I'm very grateful to have been receiving them continuously for - well, my whole adult life really....Even in the old manual typewriter days, she used to kindly send me carbon copies of letters she wrote round the world. Thanks for refreshing our memories on this one - I'm going to re-read it later. S. --- plnao wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah > > Thanks Sarah! Yes, that was the term I was thinking of. What a great > post. You know, I just can't help but say how much I enjoy reading > Nina's posts! > 38872 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 136 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 121 cittas, 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas have been discussed in the previous post. All 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas that is 1st jhana sotapatti magga, sakadagami magga, anagami magga, arahatta magga, sotapatti phala, sakadagami phala, anagami phala and arahatta phala have 36 cetasikas out of 52 total cetasikas. Citta is just one entity. It is pure. This citta is now accompanied by 36 cetasikas. But these 8 cittas are special cittas and they all are lokuttara cittas. Atomic level sees citta as a single entity and other 36 cetasikas as separate entities. But they do not exist in isolation. Now they are seen at molecular level. That is a citta which is accompanied by 36 distinctive cetasikas. In lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, there are 8 total lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. These have been discussed in the portion of lokuttara cittas in citta portion. Magga citta when arise with the power of 2nd jhana becomes magga 2nd jhana cittas. But all these 8 lokuttara jhana cittas are not rupavacara cittas at all. This is the crucial point that should have taken note in mind. When BASIS are not well understood, then there have to arise many many controversials. Behind these controversials, there are many lobha cittas, dosa cittas, moha cittas and endless akusala cittas which stabilise the arguement to stay all the time. This is the power of akusala where ahirika, anottappa, uddhacca, and moha are powerfully attract people to be in argumentation and disputes. In lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, as jhanas are considered, vitakka does not arise in 2nd jhana. So from 36 cetasikas, vitakka is not counted in 2nd jhana. So there will be left 35 cetasikas and citta. These 8 cittas are lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. This is seen at molecular level. At atomic level, citta is to know the object and each of 35 cetasikas in these 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas each do their job of cetasika functions. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38873 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Hello again, Naresh Please allow me to jump in with another sutta for you. > i understand this life we are living is an impression > of all conditions, we understand this but again we > forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult > to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still > the same thing happens. I understand how you feel. One step forward and two steps back - it feels like that. But we have to be patient. Here is a wonderful sutta - maybe Nina already gave it to you, I can't remember- about how patient we have to be about progress. It is a kind of a paradox. I think the Buddha taught it to some devas (heavenly beings) in order to encourage them not to be proud. "Crossing Over the Flood." (Samyutta Nikaya I.1) I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then a certain devata, in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, she stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood." "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place (or: unestablished)."[1] "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." [The devata:] At long last I see a brahman, totally unbound, who without pushing forward, without staying in place, has crossed over the entanglements of the world. ***** "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." If we try too hard to figure out this paradox, we will miss the message. We have to let go of our mind that struggles to understand and have faith in the Buddha's teaching, relax, and wait for the truth to arise. We can't force it. Another helpful teaching I like is from the Thich Nhat Hahn, the Vietnamese Zen master. He used the image of Dhamma as very soft rain falling on a parched field. It takes a long time for the Dhamma to sink in, but it is also falling, always, always, like very soft rain on the parched soil of our minds and it *will* sink in, we can have faith in that, if we stay open to it. (Staying open to Dhamma means giving up our need to understand everything and control everything.) Metta, Phil p.s after I gave you the link in the last post (Three Cardinal Discourses) I thought that I would recommend that you don't read all the commentary until after you've read the suttas a few times, just relaxed and reflected on what they mean for you. And then read all that long commentary and the long introduction. Just read the suttas, at first. If you'd like to discuss them more with the group I'd be very interested as well. I've though of doing that, actually. Actually, maybe I will do that right now. 38874 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Larry (and Evan) - In a message dated 11/26/04 12:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Evan: "Hi Larry, > I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described > as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process > whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the > arising of consciousness. > What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be > understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a > flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. > If I have misunderstood, please let me know." > > Hi Evan, > > The way I read it whatever is painful has to be a mental phenomenon > because pain is a mental phenomenon. Nice to meet you. > > Larry > > =========================== As I see it, contact is a mental phenomenon for the following reason: A phenomenon is mental, or visual, or aural etc depending on whether it is initially experienced via the mind door, or the eye door, or ear door etc. Now a phassa is, literally, a coming together, a confluence, a co-occurring, of an opening or activation of a particular sense door, an object at that sense door, and the resulting consciousness (experiential presence). Via what sense door is that confluence observed? The *coming together*, itself, is neither sight nor sound nor taste nor smell nor bodily sensation. Thus it is *only* via the mind door that the coming together is observed. That makes the contact a mental phenomenon. The reason that there is confusion, I think, as to what contact is, is that one thinks that it is something that "consists" of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, and two out of three of these *could* be physical, so our thought is "why think of it particularly as mental?". However, contact does not consist of three phenomena. It is a single phenomenon, the event of meeting. That single phenomenon is indeed three-ways *conditioned*, but it is not an *amalgam* of those three conditions. (Moreover, even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would have to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38875 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? I found a very interesting article about our topic 'the differences between human beings an animals: THE PLACE OF ANIMALS IN BUDDHISM Anagarika P. Sugatananda (Francis Story) in http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm Metta Joop 38876 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Howard k: Yes the Dhammasangani also point contact as a distinct event, in D.O, contact is a distinct event. If you look at the sutta quote by DN and the one I got from Expositor, points that from the collision one will see the manifestation of contact <<'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 18) that Mahaa-Kaccaana explained to the monks concerning contact: " 'This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... ' ">> <> H:> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). k: I dont think the sutta position of the collision is a concept, that is Ken H (point) and not mine. My position is always paramatha dhammas. Ken O 38877 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah Thanks for correcting me on the supramundane and mundane as it is good to be corrected if I am wrong, that is how I learn. Just like the other day Rob K also corrected me on one email on selfless act by non-Buddhists. Just giving you an interesting sutta quote MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta, that support your view :). [294].... <<"Friend, right view is assisted by five factors when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit. Here friend, right view is assisted by virtue, learning, discussion, serenity and insight. Right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit" >> right view - is supramundane right view In this way you can be right to say that pariyatti is not mundane right view because insight here should be mundane right view [my opinion], while pariyatti should be learning and discussion. So pariyatti should be an assisting factor and not mundane right view. Oops I correcting my self - it is joy to learn dhamma from good dhamma friends around :) Ken O 38878 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/26/04 11:24:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > <<'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 18) > that Mahaa-Kaccaana explained to the monks concerning contact: > > " 'This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, > when there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one > will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... ' > ">> > > < because of the collision of the three, but is should not be > understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus because it is > declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, therefore its > manifestation is called coinciding. >> > ==================== In the foregoing, the Expositor considers contact to be one thing, and the "collision" to be a manifestation of it that is distinct from it. But in the Honeyball Sutta material that you quote, specifically in "when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)," one reading is to take the "sensory impingement (phassa)" as, itself, what manifests or appears or occurs. In other words, when there is sense-door consciousness, there then manifests phassa. (Phassa occurs exactly when sense-door consciousness arises.) Moreover, in other suttas it is said quite explicitly that the meeting of the three is exactly what contact is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38879 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, Thanks, I enjoyed your mail. op 25-11-2004 22:58 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: I don't mean to attack you in anyway and it probably > isn't good to specifically bring you up in the third person (wrong > speech), N: No, no, that is not wrong at all. > J: Nina: I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! > James: No, of course not. You are studying the texts and writing, > as I stated. But is that enough? How often do you write about > renunciation, including renunciation of the five senses and their > objects? What about the development of mental culture: jhana, > tranquility, and supernormal insight? N: I appreciate your spirited reminder. Renunciation can never be enough. The Co. states that each good deed is renunciation. True, you do not think of your own confort and do not worry about tiredness. Then there has to be detachment from a dear person, how difficult, don't you think so? That cannot be immediately but there is a way: right understanding of whatever dhamma appears, even clinging, otherwise it is my clinging. The shortness of life can remind us of the futility of clinging to dear persons. But even more the shortness of each citta. In India Kh Sujin spoke about detachment every day, and reminded us that only right understanding leads to detachment. I said that I worried about Lodewijk's health, that I cling to persons. She said: is seeing Nina, is hearing Nina? The answer is no, these cittas arise and fall away immediately. Whatever appears does so because of its own conditions, and this can help to have a certain degree of detachment, although it is mostly on the level of intellectual understanding. Jhana is another matter: it depends on one's accumulations. We have to ask ourselves: are we prepared to live secluded from all sense objects? To live as a monk? Why do we want jhana? The Bodhisatta also developed jhana, but he saw that this was not the way to eradicate clinging for good. When one develops satipatthana until the stage of the non-returner, clinging to sense pleasures is eradicated for good. J: Nina: It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, > of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. > James: I believe that the emphasis should be on renunciation (non- > clinging) of dhammas, not just `understanding' them. N: Understanding leads to more detachment. Detachment from the view of self has to come first. It has to begin with understanding. If we know nothing about seeing, we shall forever cling to seeing, to the experience of what is visible. We want to see, we like it. Understanding what seeing really is: only a conditioned ephemeral dhamma, will lead to detachment from it. We cling to insignificant dhammas that do not last, not even a splitsecond. It is beneficial to learn more about them. J: Nina: Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our > enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech > and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that > seems very slight. > James: Now, this you are very correct about and I apologize for not > mentioning this about your approach earlier. You do support the > Vinaya and the following of precepts for monks and laypeople. But > again, is that enough? N: Only the sotapanna can perfectly keep the five precepts. The sotapanna has reached the first stage of enlightenment, that is already very advanced. > James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful > thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even > thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? N: This is a good question and also a reminder to me. In practice I think it does not work like this, cittas are too fast. I do not sit down and think first about this or that kind of kusala. When Kh Sujin told me, while standing near the lift in the hotel, that only at this moment the perfections are to be developed, I took it as an encouragement. If we think: now I want to do this or that noble deed, clinging to my kusala is likely to come in. But by conditions we may move quickly when there is an opportunity for kusala. Understanding that sees the benefit of kusala can work its way. Important to remember that kusala is a conditioned phenomenon, it helps not to see it as mine. Also conditions of the past play their part. But also: when sati does not arise we can't possibly develop kusala. We waste our lives away. Listening to recordings, reading suttas, working on my Visuddhimagga studies (really more than a manual!) can remind me then and there that seeing or visible object have to be known as just dhammas. But it has to be hammered in again and again. Aeons do not disturb me, I believe that it is the present moment that matters. No time to think of aeons. Best wishes, Nina. 38880 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into focus in the mind door, N: When visible object, sound, or another sense object has been experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process, it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between these processes. Later on mind-door processes of cittas which have concepts as objects may arise. Vis. text: then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises accompanied by equanimity, as it were cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. N: The Tiika explains that after the arising of the retention (tadaaramma.na-citta which may arise at the end of a sense-door process), to be followed immediately by bhavanga-cittas, the five-sense-door adverting consciousness adverts to the object and that it should be said that this is immediately followed by seeing, etc. However, the Tiika states that in this exposition the two kinds of adverting-consciousnesses are dealt with. Therefore, the latter cittas (seeing etc.) are not mentioned here. With regard to the words, as it were cutting off the life-continuum, the Tiika adds: as it were interrupting the continuity of bhavanga-cittas. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness should be understood as adverting. N: These are the kiriyacittas which are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. Nobody can direct the adverting-consciousness to interrupt the stream of bhavanga-cittas, nor can anyone cause the adverting-consciousness to advert to a particular object. The object has already impinged on one of the sense-organs and interrupted the stream of bhavanga-cittas already. It all happens too quickly and cittas follow their course because of the appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. 38881 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Clinging to self, to Phil. Hello Philip, This is mine, eta.m mama, this am I, esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. See,The Root of Existence, the first sutta of the Middle Length Sayings, transl with the Co by B.B. See p. 10 if you have this book. These three aspects are explained in the Co. We may cling to ourselves without wrong view (this is mine), with conceit (this am I) or with wrong view, personality belief (this is myself). We cannot easily find out when we cling with wrong view and when without it. First nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. Through developing the stages of insight we can come to know this. But is is good to know that there are different ways of clinging and how deeply rooted they are. By the way, about Karunadasa: Rob K wrote a very balanced article about him. He explained what he appreciated in his book and what were the weak points. Perhaps he or Sarah could repost this article? A link may be hard for you to trace. Nina. 38882 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry and Rob M, Larry, I think Rob M answered most of your questions. See below. op 26-11-2004 03:48 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > If you insist on dividing the world into "realities" and "concepts", > then accumulations would have to fit into the "concepts" bucket. > > The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural > decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). N: Yes. The natural decisive support condition is a relations between realities, or, even a relation between concepts (the wheather, surroundings) and citta. If you like to call a relationship concept, it is fine with me. Nina. 38883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Naresh, op 26-11-2004 04:15 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > When we are born we are not born with this defilements > or impurities...this develops as we grow older or is > it tht we are born with it ? > As as a child we dont diferientiate between any human > being and so mind is so pure. Nina: We are born with all the defilements accumulated in former lives. We carry a heavy burden, don't we? A baby cannot act much, he has to develop, but all inclinations to good or evil are there within him. You can notice that one baby cries all the time, wants attention, loses its temper, whilst another is very sweet and calm. They have different characters. Also their bodies are different: handsome or ugly or even handicapped. The Buddha explains that kamma causes persons to be ugly or beautiful, weak and subject to illness or healthy. Naresh: i understand this life we are living is an impression > of all conditions, we understand this but again we > forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult > to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still > the same thing happens. Nina: This is true for all of us worldlings. We have lack of alertness, even though we try. We can learn from such experiences. Our moods and emotions change so fast, this is reality whether we like it or not. But we can have more understanding of reality. We can learn that unwholesomeness is conditioned, that there is no self who is a possessor. We are empty phenomena going on because of conditions. Understanding of the phenomena of our life can be developed and even lead to the eradication of defilements. Naresh: And regarding god, it is dificult to not accept that > ther eis no supernatural power which controls us as if > we consider the great epics like Bhagwat Gita, Kuran , > Bible which still people follow & they get benifited. > So pls comment on this matter also. Nina: We can think of god, but we cannot verify his existence or non-existence. He exists in a person's thinking. We can only learn more about what is here now: seeing and the defilements arising on account of what we see, hearing and the defilements on account of what we hear. But all these phenomena are impermanent, disappear immediately. They are beyond control, no self. You cannot make them last. The Buddha taught that all phenomena are impermanent and not self. No self within us or outside of us. No permanent creator, no controller of our lives. The source of this is the scriptures. I respect all religions and their books contain great advices for human behaviour. However the Buddha taught us not to follow any holy books but to develop our own understanding. And we have to begin at this very moment, here is the dhamma we can immediately verify. Are we not seeing, hearing, are there not defilements arising? That is what we can experience, that is what we can understand more and more as impermanent and not self. Naresh; And where do i get more understanding of buddha > teachings and where do i find the source from? Nina: Reading, studying, discussing. We are discussing right now. You have to develop understanding yourself, nobody can prescribe you what to do. Nina. 38884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'yoniso manasikara, to Ken O. Hi Ken O, I send this info to Phil before. See below. The kusala cittas can also be unaccompanied by pañña. Yoniso: rightly, in the right way. Proper attention, in the wholesome way. op 26-11-2004 06:46 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Phil > > If I remember correctly, yoniso-manisakara is the same as panna. If > I am wrong, someone please correct me. N: When the determining consciousness in the sense-door process and the mind-door adverting consciousness in a mind-door process are followed by javana cittas which are kusala, accompanied by pañña or not, there is proper attention to the object which is experienced. Thus, yoniso-manisakara refers here to the whole series of javana cittas. Manasikara has different meanings depending on the context. Manasikara denotes two cittas: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, and it is called controller of the sense-door process. And also the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is called controller of the javanas. Then there is manasikara cetasika, attention, which arises with each citta. NIna. 38885 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, You wrote to Sarah: ------------- > Thanks for correcting me on the supramundane and mundane Just giving you an interesting sutta quote MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta, that support your view :). [294].... <<"Friend, right view is assisted by five factors when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit. Here friend, right view is assisted by virtue, learning, discussion, serenity and insight. Right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit" >> ------------- Wow, I am always in awe of people who can quote suttas! This one is very similar to a sutta often quoted on DSG (including by me but I can never give its name let alone its address). However, your sutta gives five factors leading to enlightenment where the other gives only four. Could it be that the one you have quoted was delivered to monks who were practising 'samatha and vipassana' and the other one was delivered to monks who were practising 'bare vipassana?' Your 'five factors' begin with "virtue" whereas the 'four factors' begin with "association with the wise." I suppose the two could be synonymous, but "virtue" suggests samatha whereas "wise" suggests vipassana. The samatha (jhana) practitioner doesn't care for association with others (wise or unwise), does he? He needs to be in a remote, deserted place. But, if he is to escape samsara, he will, at some stage, need to hear and discuss the true Dhamma. The other pariyatti factors of the two suttas coincide ("learning" and "discussion" coincide with "hearing" and "considering"), but when it comes to patipatti yours calls it "serenity and insight" whereas the other simply calls it, "practice in accordance with the Dhamma." That could refer to the fact that, for some followers of the Buddha, there were two distinct types of bhavana - samatha and vipassana (serenity and insight). For others (following the bare-vipassana method), serenity is developed only to the extent that it arises automatically with insight. Thanks again for the quote. I hope I haven't totally distorted it. :-) Ken H 38886 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 137 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, there arise 34 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas, there arise 36 cetasikas after exclusion of 14 akusala cetasikas and 2 appamanna cetasikas of karuna and mudita cetasika from 52 total cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, 35 cetasikas arise after exclusion of vitakka cetasika in 36 cetasikas of 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. In 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, vicara cetasika is removed from 35 cetasikas of lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas and there only arise 34 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 4th jhana cittas, from 34 cetasikas of 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas piti cetasika is left out and there arise only 33 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 5th jhana cittas, the same amount of cetasikas arise that is 33 cetasikas arise. But vedana cetasika is in the quality of upekkha or equanimous feeling. Citta is only one. This one citta when accompanied by different combination of cetasikas and more importantly when these cetasikas qualities are different then cittas have to differ from each other, one another and they each behave separately independent of place, time and bases. This is molecular level of Dhamma and when these details can be understood, then Dhamma will be seen as if the bright light is cast in the dark. But this is hard job and a lot of practice is needed to penetrate to molecular level and atomic level. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38887 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Rob K ) Hello Rob. Thanks for the feedback. I have been slowly absorbing everyone's advice for the past week Rob:Do you want to be the one who can control thoughts? Then there are many religions and philosphies and psycholgies that will show you how. Or do you want to see that there is no one anywhere doing anything ever? Phil: I am feeling a little bit more sure that we *can* take intentional action to starve certain crude defilements, hindrances, what will you, in a way that can have a beneificial impact on our lives, very soon. Some manifestations, if that's the right word, of those defilements will disappear. But this is a completely different thing from getting at the root of the problem and really eradicating the defilements. I say this as I have good news to report. I haven't watched the news, checked the news on the internet in any way for close to three days, and guess what? I am not thinking about Bush or Iraq or anything related, and have no itching to know. The itching to know was very uncomfortable, believe me. I would look at the clock and see that it was 10 to 4, says, and think "I can see the news in 10 minutes." And those 10 minutes were consumed by that itching. It was an extreme case, an addiction. And man oh man, the lightness I felt yesterday. I will have a backslide - this is the second time I have experienced this sense of liberation, and I backslid last time. But I think I may have turned a corner. However, I have not begun to eradicate the deeper defilements that give rise to the desire for chaos and destruction in the news, for all that schadenfreude. The defilements that make me ignorant of the suffering of people involved. That is a project for many lifetimes. Would I have done now is like a doctor putting a pain relieving ointment on the skin to treat an inflammation caused by a disease that is boiling beneath, deeper in the body. The relief of the surtace suffering is much appreciated, but I know that that is all it is. And the suttas I quoted in that post did help, and do point at a more active approach to handling crude defilements. Let me requote a couple of them: -An individual with an "internal blemish" (which is later defined as "consorting with evil, unskillful wishes") may discern that this is so, and then "generate desire etc to abandon that blemish." (MN 5) - A monk may discern that "when I exert a mental fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of of exertion there is dispassion....when I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity, there is dispassion." (MN 101) There is self disgnosis, and self-treatment. It wouldn't be helfpul for subtler defilemts. In my opinion, cultivating panna in the light of a growing understanding of Abhidhamma is the only way to do that. But for this heavy lifting, these kind of suttas are very helfpul, I think. (I think of a simile of clearing a bunch of cluttered garbage, rusty old refrigerators, rain sodden, stinky magazines out of an overgrown garden before starting to cultivate it.) Another passage from MN 101: "Furthermore, the monk notices this: "When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress and pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain." It *was* tough not to check the news that first day. The second day was easier. This is crude stuff, but boy do I feel lightened today! Of course, all this happened because right understanding had been developed to the point that "I" knew it was time to do something. I'm no longer proposing that we can use self to eradicate self, as I used to. But there is room for a direct, active approach to handling some problems. There is no need to be patient about some problems. They can be handled lickety-split. But they are just surface manifestations of defilements, not the root causes. Gotta run. I'll get back to you post tonight. Thanks again. And thank you all for your support. Metta, Phil Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are watching TV. No one puts it clearer than the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . Instead of been by akusala why not understand it as it is. If you read the suttas without understanding the conventional language they are termed in you will go wrong. There is TRUE right effort at a moment of understanding the dhamma that is arising now. You talk about having evil thoughts about 9/11 and trying to stop them. But if you know that sound is sound and thinking is thinking it all becomes merely objects for insight. And learning to see this you will have no doubt at all that there are no beings anywhere, there are just conditions, mere dukkha, arising and ceasing. I asked one of the group?@who are translating Buddhism in Daily life in Japan how they felt towards a guy last year who killed 6 or 7 primary school students. One who has really caught onto what Dhamma is said she felt neutral.?@I said I would love to meet him because I think he would appreciate Dhamma now (since been executed). So hearing about Osama or Bush is like a small test to show us whether we have a little understanding or none at all. Why do we always want to complicate the Dhamma. I guess being aware of the present moment is just something that doesn't seem feasible or something..? Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like > threads, > so please bear with me. > > I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) > recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have > far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for > Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken > pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that > when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to > eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. > 38888 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "Sensuous clinging arises before you have named the object, before the object has become a concept." Hi Rob, We cling to feeling but most 5-door consciousness arises with neutral feeling. What feeling are we clinging to? If we are clinging to a feeling other than the 5-door consciousness feeling then there are two feelings here. Also I'm a little uncomfortable saying tadarammana is end-of-story. This javana experience isn't recirculated somehow? Larry 38889 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/26/2004 8:57:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: < because of the collision of the three, but is should not be > understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus because it is > declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, therefore its > manifestation is called coinciding. >> > ==================== In the foregoing, the Expositor considers contact to be one thing, and the "collision" to be a manifestation of it that is distinct from it. But in the Honeyball Sutta material that you quote, specifically in "when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)," one reading is to take the "sensory impingement (phassa)" as, itself, what manifests or appears or occurs. In other words, when there is sense-door consciousness, there then manifests phassa. (Phassa occurs exactly when sense-door consciousness arises.) Moreover, in other suttas it is said quite explicitly that the meeting of the three is exactly what contact is. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I agree with what you say on the Suttas. I read the passage from the Expositor in a more simple way I think. I read it is merely saying that Phassa is not "just" contact (such as contact between innanimate things), but that it is contact where 3 elements -- object,sense base, and consciousness; generate feeling, sensation, etc. I could be wrong, (its happened once before), but, I think the Expositor is simply trying to clarify what the Suttas say. I don't think it is trying to promote a different view on Phassa. Does anyone have the page number on the quote from the Expositor? OK, this time its getting close to being my final word on the matter. ;-) TG 38890 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friend James, > Thanks, I enjoyed your mail. I'm glad. :-) Jhana is another matter: it depends on one's accumulations. We have to ask > ourselves: are we prepared to live secluded from all sense objects? To live > as a monk? Why do we want jhana? The Bodhisatta also developed jhana, but he > saw that this was not the way to eradicate clinging for good. When one > develops satipatthana until the stage of the non-returner, clinging to sense > pleasures is eradicated for good. Humans (and all living entities) seek pleasure. We seek pleasure through the five senses and avoid pain. Jhana is important to cultivate because it allows consciousness to experience a pleasure that is not dependent on the five senses. By doing this, consciousness is more willing to give up its craving and clinging to material pleasures and seek a pleasure beyond the five senses, ultimately nibbana. Jhana is important for householders as well because even if they don't aim for ultimate liberation, jhana could at least make them become less greedy and overindulgent. It is not impossible for householders to achieve jhana and the Buddha taught that householders should achieve jhana. > > > James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful > > thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even > > thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? > N: This is a good question and also a reminder to me. In practice I think it > does not work like this, cittas are too fast. I do not sit down and think > first about this or that kind of kusala. When Kh Sujin told me, while > standing near the lift in the hotel, that only at this moment the > perfections are to be developed, I took it as an encouragement. If we > think: now I want to do this or that noble deed, clinging to my kusala is > likely to come in. But by conditions we may move quickly when there is an > opportunity for kusala. Understanding that sees the benefit of kusala can > work its way. Important to remember that kusala is a conditioned phenomenon, > it helps not to see it as mine. Also conditions of the past play their part. > But also: when sati does not arise we can't possibly develop kusala. We > waste our lives away. > Listening to recordings, reading suttas, working on my Visuddhimagga studies > (really more than a manual!) can remind me then and there that seeing or > visible object have to be known as just dhammas. But it has to be hammered > in again and again. > Aeons do not disturb me, I believe that it is the present moment that > matters. What about being mindful of one's death? No time to think of aeons. > Best wishes, > Nina. Metta, James 38891 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Is adverting consciousness the first time contact cetasika occurs in citta process? Contact occurs with every consciousness, right? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. > > Vis. XIV, 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into > focus in > the mind door, > > N: When visible object, sound, or another sense object has been experienced > by the cittas of a sense-door process, it is experienced by cittas of the > mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between these > processes. Later on mind-door processes of cittas which have concepts as > objects may arise. > > Vis. text: then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum > the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises > accompanied by equanimity, as it were cutting off the life- continuum and > accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. > > N: The Tiika explains that after the arising of the retention > (tadaaramma.na-citta which may arise at the end of a sense-door process), to > be followed immediately by bhavanga-cittas, the five-sense-door adverting > consciousness adverts to the object and that it should be said that this is > immediately followed by seeing, etc. However, the Tiika states that in this > exposition the two kinds of adverting-consciousnesses are dealt with. > Therefore, the latter cittas (seeing etc.) are not mentioned here. > With regard to the words, as it were cutting off the life- continuum, the > Tiika adds: as it were interrupting the continuity of bhavanga- cittas. > > Vis. text: > This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness > should be understood as adverting. > > N: These are the kiriyacittas which are the five-sense-door > adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. > Nobody can direct the adverting-consciousness to interrupt the stream of > bhavanga-cittas, nor can anyone cause the adverting-consciousness to advert > to a particular object. > The object has already impinged on one of the sense-organs and interrupted > the stream of bhavanga-cittas already. It all happens too quickly and cittas > follow their course because of the appropriate conditions. > > ****** > Nina. 38892 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Howard and all, A reread of Vism.XIV,115 might be relevant here. An abhidhamma analysis of the "coming together of the three" says that an external rupa impinges on sensitive matter then sensitive matter transfers that impingement to an internal rupa that interrupts the bhavanga. This internal rupa then impinges on 17 consecutive consciousnesses. Contact cetasika arises with every consciousness marking the moment of impingement before or as cognition begins (I think). This probably isn't quite right. Maybe Nina or Htoo could correct. Larry 38893 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Mahayana Sutras Dear Group, Are there any of the Mahayana collections of Sutras which are regarded (by the Theravada tradition) as basically agreeing with the Teachings contained in the Pali Canon? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time---- 38894 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Re: accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Rob: "Sensuous clinging arises before you have named the object, > before the object has become a concept." > > Hi Rob, > > We cling to feeling but most 5-door consciousness arises with neutral > feeling. What feeling are we clinging to? If we are clinging to a > feeling other than the 5-door consciousness feeling then there are > two feelings here. ===== We cling to more than feeling. We cling to views, we cling to sense objects, we cling to existence, we cling to self, we cling to rites- and-rituals. All of this clinging arises because of pakatupanissaya. ===== > > Also I'm a little uncomfortable saying tadarammana is end-of- story. > This javana experience isn't recirculated somehow? ===== Thanks to pakatupanissaya, past strong rupa / nama / concepts can influence current mental states. Here is a scenario to explain. I walk into my son's room and see that it is a mess. Anger arises. Let us analyze why anger arose. Perhaps I am a neat-freak, a Felix Unger type. You might call this accumulations, built up from the current and perhaps even past lives. This works through pakatupanissaya. Now imagine that I am a slob (i.e no neat freak accumulations - an Oscar Madison type). However, my wife has just finished scolding me for being too lenient with my son and I have had a bad day at the office as well. In this case, anger also arose because of pakatupanissaya but in this case, the conditioning factors were "strong" because they were recent. Not quite right to call it accumulations, but it is still pakatupanissaya. Now as we move from a sense door process to a mind door process to another mind door process, the object of the most recent process is "strong" because it is very recent (billionth of a second old) and so pakatupanissaya contributes to the continued taking of an object by many sequential processes. Metta, Rob M :-) 38895 From: connieparker Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Not registering Hi, Rob and Larry, Rob wrote (in re: accumulations) -- All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to change part way through a process. ===== I think there might be an exception, but I don't really understand this adventitious-/agantuka- bhavanga citta (below). Is it not considered part of the process? Is the process considered to have ended with the last javana? peace, connie Here's the English CMA and CSSD Pali text: Tadaaramma.naniyamo [The Procedure of Registration] 25. Sabbatthaapi panettha ani.t.the aaramma.ne akusalavipaakaaneva pa~ncavi~n~naa.nasampa.ticchanasantiira.natadaaramma.naani. 26. I.t.the kusalavipaakaani. 27. Ati-i.t.the pana somanassasahagataaneva santiira.natadaaramma.naani, tatthaapi somanassasahagatakiriyajavanaavasaane somanassasahagataaneva tadaaramma.naani bhavanti, upekkhaasahagatakiriyajavanaavasaane ca upekkhaasahagataaneva honti. [English Section 17 - Analysis of Registration Here, under all circumstances, when an object is undesirable, the fivefold sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration (that arise) are unwholesome-resultants. When (the object is) desirable, they are wholesome-resultants. If the object is extremely desirable, investigation and registration are accompanied by joy. In this connection, too, at the end of functional javanas accompanied by joy, there arise registration mind-moments also accompanied by joy. At the end of functional javanas accompanied by equanimity, the registration mind-moments are also accompanied by equanimity. (followed by Guide to Section 17 - skipped here) *** 28. Domanassasahagatajavanaavasaane ca pana tadaaramma.naaniceva bhava"ngaani ca upekkhaasahagataaneva bhavanti, tasmaa yadi somanassapa.tisandhikassa domanassasahagatajavanaavasaane tadaaramma.nasambhavo natthi, tadaa ya.m ki~nci paricitapubba.m parittaaramma.namaarabbha upekkhaasahagatasantiira.na.m uppajjati, tamanantaritvaa bhava"ngapaatova hotiiti vadanti aacariyaa. *** [Section 18 in the English: But at the end of the javanas accompanied by displeasure, the registration mind-moments and the life-continuum are both accompanied by equanimity. Therefore, in the case of one whose rebirth-consciousness is accompanied by joy, if at the end of javanas accompanied by displeasure there is no occurrence of registration mind-moments, then, the teachers explain, there arises an investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity apprehending any familiar trivial object. Immediately after that there is subsidence into the life-continuum. Guide to Section 18: "But at the end of javanas accompanied by displeasure, etc.": Because pleasant feeling and painful feeling are diametrical opposites, cittas accompanied by the one cannot arise in immediate succession to cittas accompanied by the other. However, cittas accompanied by either of these opposed feelings can be immediately preceded or followed by cittas accompanied by neutral feeling. Thus, when the javanas are accompanied by displeasure (domanassa), i.e. as cittas rooted in hatred, if there is occasion for registration cittas they must be accompanied by equanimity [6]. If there is no scope for registration cittas, javanas accompanied by displeasure will be followed immediately by the bhavanga only if the latter is accompanied by equanimous feeling. [footnote 6] From this stipulation it seems that if aversion arises towards an extremely desirable object, the registration cittas will not be accompanied by joy (as stated in section 17); instead they will be wholesome-resultants accompanied by equanimity. "Therefore, in the case of one, etc.": For someone whose bhavanga is one of the four great resultants accompanied by joy, if there are no registration cittas following a javana process accompanied by displeasure, the last javana citta cannot be followed by an immediate descent into the bhavanga, owing to the law that cittas with opposite feelings cannot arise in immediate succession. In such a case, the ancient teachers of the Abhidhamma hold that an investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity occurs for a single mind-moment, serving as a buffer between the displeasure (=painful mental feeling) of the javana and the joy (=pleasant mental feeling) of the bhavanga. On such an occasion this citta does not perform the function of investigating. It takes an object different from that of the cognitive process - some unrelated sense-sphere object with which one is already familiar - and functions simply to pave the way back to the normal flow of the root bhavanga. This special citta is termed aagantuka-bhavanga, "the adventitious life-continuum".] *** 29. Tathaa kaamaavacarajavanaavasaane kaamaavacarasattaana.m kaamaavacaradhammesveva aaramma.nabhuutesu tadaaramma.na.m icchantiiti. [Section 19 - The Law of Registration Likewise, they hold that registration occurs (only) at the end of sense-sphere javanas, (only) to sense-sphere beings, only when sense-sphere phenomena become objects.] 30. Kaame javanasattaalamba.naana.m niyame sati. Vibhuutetimahante ca, tadaaramma.namiirita.m. Ayamettha tadaaramma.naniyamo. [Section 20 - Summary Registration occurs, they say, in connection with clear and very great objects when there is certainty as regards sense-sphere javanas, beings, and objects. Herein, this is the procedure of registration.] ====== : All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to change part way through a process. ===== I think there might be an exception, but I don't really understand this adventitious-/agantuka- bhavanga citta (below). Is it not considered part of the process? Is the process considered to have ended with the last javana? peace, connie Here's the English CMA and CSSD Pali text: Tadaaramma.naniyamo [The Procedure of Registration] 25. Sabbatthaapi panettha ani.t.the aaramma.ne akusalavipaakaaneva pa~ncavi~n~naa.nasampa.ticchanasantiira.natadaaramma.naani. 26. I.t.the kusalavipaakaani. 27. Ati-i.t.the pana somanassasahagataaneva santiira.natadaaramma.naani, tatthaapi somanassasahagatakiriyajavanaavasaane somanassasahagataaneva tadaaramma.naani bhavanti, upekkhaasahagatakiriyajavanaavasaane ca upekkhaasahagataaneva honti. [English Section 17 - Analysis of Registration Here, under all circumstances, when an object is undesirable, the fivefold sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration (that arise) are unwholesome-resultants. When (the object is) desirable, they are wholesome-resultants. If the object is extremely desirable, investigation and registration are accompanied by joy. In this connection, too, at the end of functional javanas accompanied by joy, there arise registration mind-moments also accompanied by joy. At the end of functional javanas accompanied by equanimity, the registration mind-moments are also accompanied by equanimity. (followed by Guide to Section 17 - skipped here) *** 28. Domanassasahagatajavanaavasaane ca pana tadaaramma.naaniceva bhava"ngaani ca upekkhaasahagataaneva bhavanti, tasmaa yadi somanassapa.tisandhikassa domanassasahagatajavanaavasaane tadaaramma.nasambhavo natthi, tadaa ya.m ki~nci paricitapubba.m parittaaramma.namaarabbha upekkhaasahagatasantiira.na.m uppajjati, tamanantaritvaa bhava"ngapaatova hotiiti vadanti aacariyaa. *** [Section 18 in the English: But at the end of the javanas accompanied by displeasure, the registration mind-moments and the life-continuum are both accompanied by equanimity. Therefore, in the case of one whose rebirth-consciousness is accompanied by joy, if at the end of javanas accompanied by displeasure there is no occurrence of registration mind-moments, then, the teachers explain, there arises an investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity apprehending any familiar trivial object. Immediately after that there is subsidence into the life-continuum. Guide to Section 18: "But at the end of javanas accompanied by displeasure, etc.": Because pleasant feeling and painful feeling are diametrical opposites, cittas accompanied by the one cannot arise in immediate succession to cittas accompanied by the other. However, cittas accompanied by either of these opposed feelings can be immediately preceded or followed by cittas accompanied by neutral feeling. Thus, when the javanas are accompanied by displeasure (domanassa), i.e. as cittas rooted in hatred, if there is occasion for registration cittas they must be accompanied by equanimity [6]. If there is no scope for registration cittas, javanas accompanied by displeasure will be followed immediately by the bhavanga only if the latter is accompanied by equanimous feeling. [footnote 6] From this stipulation it seems that if aversion arises towards an extremely desirable object, the registration cittas will not be accompanied by joy (as stated in section 17); instead they will be wholesome-resultants accompanied by equanimity. "Therefore, in the case of one, etc.": For someone whose bhavanga is one of the four great resultants accompanied by joy, if there are no registration cittas following a javana process accompanied by displeasure, the last javana citta cannot be followed by an immediate descent into the bhavanga, owing to the law that cittas with opposite feelings cannot arise in immediate succession. In such a case, the ancient teachers of the Abhidhamma hold that an investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity occurs for a single mind-moment, serving as a buffer between the displeasure (=painful mental feeling) of the javana and the joy (=pleasant mental feeling) of the bhavanga. On such an occasion this citta does not perform the function of investigating. It takes an object different from that of the cognitive process - some unrelated sense-sphere object with which one is already familiar - and functions simply to pave the way back to the normal flow of the root bhavanga. This special citta is termed aagantuka-bhavanga, "the adventitious life-continuum".] *** 29. Tathaa kaamaavacarajavanaavasaane kaamaavacarasattaana.m kaamaavacaradhammesveva aaramma.nabhuutesu tadaaramma.na.m icchantiiti. [Section 19 - The Law of Registration Likewise, they hold that registration occurs (only) at the end of sense-sphere javanas, (only) to sense-sphere beings, only when sense-sphere phenomena become objects.] 30. Kaame javanasattaalamba.naana.m niyame sati. Vibhuutetimahante ca, tadaaramma.namiirita.m. Ayamettha tadaaramma.naniyamo. [Section 20 - Summary Registration occurs, they say, in connection with clear and very great objects when there is certainty as regards sense-sphere javanas, beings, and objects. Herein, this is the procedure of registration.] ====== 38896 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Re: Not registering Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > Rob wrote (in re: accumulations) -- > > All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial > bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in > the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental > states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to > change part way through a process. > > ===== > > I think there might be an exception, but I don't really understand this > adventitious-/agantuka- bhavanga citta (below). Is it not considered part > of the process? Is the process considered to have ended with the last > javana? ===== My sweeping generalities get me into trouble again :-) You are correct that the adventitious bhavanga is an exception. BTW - did you type all that text (including the Pali) out yourself or do you have an electronic version of BB's CMA? Metta, Rob M :-) 38897 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/26/2004 6:13:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: As I see it, contact is a mental phenomenon for the following reason: A phenomenon is mental, or visual, or aural etc depending on whether it is initially experienced via the mind door, or the eye door, or ear door etc. Now a phassa is, literally, a coming together, a confluence, a co-occurring, of an opening or activation of a particular sense door, an object at that sense door, and the resulting consciousness (experiential presence). Via what sense door is that confluence observed? The *coming together*, itself, is neither sight nor sound nor taste nor smell nor bodily sensation. Thus it is *only* via the mind door that the coming together is observed. That makes the contact a mental phenomenon. The reason that there is confusion, I think, as to what contact is, is that one thinks that it is something that "consists" of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, and two out of three of these *could* be physical, so our thought is "why think of it particularly as mental?". However, contact does not consist of three phenomena. It is a single phenomenon, the event of meeting. That single phenomenon is indeed three-ways *conditioned*, but it is not an *amalgam* of those three conditions. (Moreover, even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would have to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon ;-) With metta, Howard Hi Howard Now if I understand you correctly here, I a few problems with this description of contact. First of all, it seems this description contradicts the Suttas by limiting the importance of sense object and sense base both of which are on the side of material; except for mental object. The Buddha could have easily described contact as only mental phenomena if he had wanted to but he did not. I think saying that contact does not consist of three phenomena, but is only a single phenomena is a full contradiction of the Suttas. I think it ignores the multifaceted structures that support experience. I fully disagree with the conclusion that states that contact is not a combination (amalgam) of three conditions. This is, in fact, exactly what it is according to the Suttas: -- "The coming together of the three." The concluding sentence -- H. "(Moreover, even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would have to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon ;-)" T.G. ...doesn't seem supported by a reason and I'd probably disagree with it anyway. ;-) If its any consolation, I did like your use of asterisks!!! TG 38898 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/26/04 6:53:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > A reread of Vism.XIV,115 might be relevant here. > > An abhidhamma analysis of the "coming together of the three" says > that an external rupa impinges on sensitive matter then sensitive > matter transfers that impingement to an internal rupa that interrupts > the bhavanga. This internal rupa then impinges on 17 consecutive > consciousnesses. Contact cetasika arises with every consciousness > marking the moment of impingement before or as cognition begins (I > think). This probably isn't quite right. Maybe Nina or Htoo could > correct. > > Larry > ========================= That's quite a detailed matter, Larry. But it doesn't sound like an Abhidhamma analysis to me - it sounds strictly commentarial. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38899 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations Hi Rob, You still haven't explained why desire would arise for a sound, taste, smell, or visible data. Dependent arising says dependent on feeling desire arises. Show me. Larry 38900 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Howard: "That's quite a detailed matter, Larry. But it doesn't sound like an Abhidhamma analysis to me - it sounds strictly commentarial." Hi Howard, Okay, commentarial. I thought it read a lot like what you had written. Larry 38901 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/26/04 8:57:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Now if I understand you correctly here, I a few problems with this > description of contact. > > First of all, it seems this description contradicts the Suttas by limiting > the importance of sense object and sense base both of which are on the side > of > material; except for mental object. --------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. Contact is not these three phenomena, individually, or as a group. It is the *meeting* of the three. Those three are the *conditions* for contact. It is irrelevant that two of them are physical and one mental. If all *three* were physical, the contact, the coming together, would still be mental, because the contact is experienced through mind door only. ---------------------------------------- > > The Buddha could have easily described contact as only mental phenomena if > he > had wanted to but he did not. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is only one khandha that is not a mind-door khandha, and that is rupakkhandha. Phassa is not a kind of rupa. It belongs to sankharakkhandha. ------------------------------------------ > > I think saying that contact does not consist of three phenomena, but is only > > a single phenomena is a full contradiction of the Suttas. I think it > ignores > the multifaceted structures that support experience. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, the suttas explicitly say that phassa is the coming together, the meeting, the confluence. That is not a group of phenomena - that is a single experiential event. ------------------------------------------ > > I fully disagree with the conclusion that states that contact is not a > combination (amalgam) of three conditions. This is, in fact, exactly what > it is > according to the Suttas: -- "The coming together of the three." > --------------------------------------------- Howard: The *coming together* of the three is not the group-of-three; it is an event. To give an analogy: If three people meet in the park, their meeting is not the group of three; it is an event that involves those three. --------------------------------------------- > > The concluding sentence -- > > H. "(Moreover, even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would > have > to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon > > ;-)" > > T.G. ...doesn't seem supported by a reason and I'd probably disagree with > it > anyway. ;-) > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, that's unimportant anyway, as contact is not a group - it is an event. -------------------------------------------- > > If its any consolation, I did like your use of asterisks!!! > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, thanks! I'd be disappointed otherwise, as they are my specialty!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ > > TG > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38902 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/26/2004 7:51:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: No, the suttas explicitly say that phassa is the coming together, the meeting, the confluence. That is not a group of phenomena - that is a single experiential event. Hi Howard We are at a rare disagreement. We don't agree on any aspect of this topic. I just would like to see the Sutta reference that states that -- "Contact is a single experiential event." The Suttas, rather, say that contact is the coming together of three things. All experiences are supported by multifaceted structures (or events if you rather.) There is no such thing as one event standing on its own. None of your conclusions that I can tell come from Sutta sources. They seem like things you have concluded on your own, which is fine, just not in accordance with what the Suttas state. (I do this type of thing as well by the way.) It seems to me that the position you are taking on Contact is more "Abhidhamma oriented" than even Abhidhamma...if you catch my drift. (You probably enjoyed that.) ;-) TG 38903 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah I recorrect myself, because I known in the texts, practise in the way also includes listening, memorising (because at that time there is no books) of the dhamma - they conditioned mundane right view to rise. During such normal activities, mundane right view arise due to understanding of the memorising and listening of the dhamma. Ken O 38904 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi TG Pg 144 of Expositor, you can get the description of contact from pg 142 - 145 Ken O 38905 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not registering Hi Rob M > My sweeping generalities get me into trouble again :-) k: same here :) Cheers Ken O 38906 From: Andrew Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > I found a very interesting article about our topic 'the differences > between human beings an animals: > > THE PLACE OF ANIMALS IN BUDDHISM > Anagarika P. Sugatananda (Francis Story) > in > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm > > Metta > Joop Hi Joop Nice to see you around and thank you for sharing the results of your research. I read the article and, like you, found it very interesting and stimulating. I have a few comments/observations which I will toss into the ring for those with any interest in the topic. EVOLUTIONARY ETHICS. The article begins with a quote from a Natural History Professor's article on evolutionary ethics. I have the impression that evolutionary ethics never really took off eg modern ethics textbooks have very little on it. I suspect that, as an outlook, it annoyed the scientists and failed to satisfy the ethics academics (many of whom wouldn't know the front end of a horse from the back end. (-: ). NO CONTROL. I don't think Francis Story adheres to the "no control" view of Dhamma. He writes: "The special position of the human being rests on the fact that he alone can consciously direct his own personal current of Kamma to a higher or lower density." What do the no-controllers out there in DSG land think of this comment? Is this "conscious directing" the pivotal difference between man and beast? Any ideas what "higher or lower density" means? SIMILARITIES RATHER THAN DIFFERENCES. Theistic religions tend to stress differences between man and beast whereas I have always seen Dhamma as highlighting similarities. Francis Story hints at this when he writes: "Buddhism takes into full account the animal's latent capacity for affection, heroism and self-sacrifice. There is in Buddhism more sense of kinship with the animal world, a more intimate feeling of community with all that lives, than is found in Western religious thought. And this is not a matter of sentiment, *but is rooted in the total Buddhist concept of life*." [my emphasis]. I would have thought that, for no-controllers, humans and animals are pretty much in the same boat in having no control over mind. The pivotal difference is that humans can hear the Dhamma, reflect on it wisely and practice what is learned. SO, does that mean that there is really no important difference at all between animals and people who do not hear and practice the Dhamma? Yes, I know they have different rupa and latent tendencies but they, animals and non-Dhamma people, are on the same merry-go- round and nothing is happening to get them off? That's the true kinship Francis Story should be talking about, isn't it? All righteous and indignant replies welcome. Best wishes Andrew 38907 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 0:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > You still haven't explained why desire would arise for a sound, taste, > smell, or visible data. Dependent arising says dependent on feeling > desire arises. Show me. Sorry Larry, I am in a big rush at the moment. All types of feeling give rise to craving for sense data. See Vism XVII 238 for more details. As you can read, everything comes from pakatupanissaya! Sorry, gotta run - I still owe a reply to Ken H and I have realized that I was too quick to admit fault in over-generalizing (it is a Canadian accumulation to be quick to admit faults - Phil would understand :-) ). Metta, Rob M :-) 38908 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: Not registering Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker > wrote: > > Rob wrote (in re: accumulations) -- > > > > All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial > > bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in > > the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental > > states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to > > change part way through a process. > > > > ===== > > > > I think there might be an exception, but I don't really understand > this > > adventitious-/agantuka- bhavanga citta (below). Is it not > considered part > > of the process? Is the process considered to have ended with the > last > > javana? > > > > ===== > > My sweeping generalities get me into trouble again :-) > > You are correct that the adventitious bhavanga is an exception. > > BTW - did you type all that text (including the Pali) out yourself > or do you have an electronic version of BB's CMA? ===== Now I am going to retract my earlier retraction :-) Am I starting to sound like a politician? When the citta process without registration involves dosa-mula javana mental states is over, there is a problem in cases of human beings with bhavanga mental state acompanied by pleasant mental feeling. You can't jump directly from unpleasant feeling (the end of the citta process) to pleasant feeling (bhavanga). In this case, when the citta process is over, an extra mental state with neutral feeling is inserted. In any case, the citta process ends with the javana, so my initial statement regarding no changing of object midway through a process remains valid. Metta, Rob M :-) 38909 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 0:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Andrew, Thanks for the interesting dissertation on animals and humans. You wrote: ------------------------- <. . .> > I would have thought that, for no-controllers, humans and animals are pretty much in the same boat in having no control over mind. > -------------------------- Yes, wherever the words 'living being' apply, there are only namas and rupas arising disinterestedly, persisting disinterestedly and falling away disinterestedly. I say that even though there are cetasikas like piti and chanda, which, in the ultimate sense, are the embodiment of interest. But there is no interestedness (I hope that's grammatically correct) - those namas are simply performing their functions. ------------------------- A: > The pivotal difference is that humans can hear the Dhamma, reflect on it wisely and practice what is learned. > -------------------------- Yes, but so what? If there are only namas and rupas, why do we care about the stories we attach to them? Because of ignorance, I suppose. In other words, because of one of those disinterested namas. ------------------ A: > SO, does that mean that there is really no important difference at all between animals and people who do not hear and practice the Dhamma? > ----------------- They have different rupa and latent tendencies! :-) ----------------------- A: > Yes, I know they have different rupa and latent tendencies but they, animals and non-Dhamma people, are on the same merry-go-round and nothing is happening to get them off > ------------------------ So you are saying (quite rightly) that they really don't have different latent tendencies at all. Or at least, not where it counts. They both lack tendencies for panna. (Just being picky: I suppose you have made an over-generalisation. We can never know the citta of another living being. For example, one of the ariyans mentioned in the suttas was reborn as a moth! (Sorry, no reference.)) --------------- A: > That's the true kinship Francis Story should be talking about, isn't it? All righteous and indignant replies welcome. --------------- I should jolly well think they would be! Ken H 38910 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:54am Subject: Transforming dosa revisited (was Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hello Bhante Vimalaramsi, and all > Phil: This is the kind of metta meditation I did for about a year. Moving on > to > the neutral person, the difficult person, etc. I did experience peace of > mind > from generating metta for my difficult father-in-law, for Dick Cheney (two > different men, BTW) etc. There was peace of mind. But I came to feel that it > was not real. I wus just creating comfortt. > > But we will see. Having better understood realities through Abhidhamma, > I may one day return to metta meditation with a better foundation in > conditined > realities. As an afterword, let me tell you about an interesting confirmation of the value of what I was doing before. For a short time last winter, soon after joining DSG, I developed a habit/practice of identifying sources of aversion (dosa) in daily life, and then intentionally reflecting on them in the morning. I reflected on them in the light of the four noble truths and the three characteristics, to the shallow degree I was capable, which I believe helps to condition equanimity, and if loving-kindness or compassion entered into it, I reflected on that as well. Similar to the "difficult person" in metta meditation, but there was no limiting it to one person, but rather a whole category of people or, as it happens, animals I was likely to meet, and there was consideration of equanimity before metta. For example, I reflected on men who hoark and gob on the street, or who throw cigarette butts on the ground. We have many opportunities to see such fellows here, and I conditioned compassion and friendliness for them. Also, for some reason I had always had an aversion for small yappy dogs, the kind whose owners put little sweaters and booties on them. I identified the consistency of my aversion for these dogs and their owners and thought it was very petty of me, so I reflected on them and felt mudita for the love that was involved on the owners part. Lo and behold, I came to have a friendly feeling towards these yappy dogs and phlegm hoarking men whenever I came across them. I posted about this in February, I guess, under the title "transforming dosa." I decided at that point that I should abandon the practice because it was better to see the realities that arose without trying to dodge them or condition them away intentionally. Now, the interesting thing is yesterday I went for a walk in the park where I used to see these dogs last winter for the first time in a while, and came across one, and *immediately* felt friendliness. If the kind of intentional metta that I had developed was them was just a tranquilizer, as I thought, it certainly has a long shelf life. My point is that I do want to continue to consider the value of these kind of practices. They most definitely do have a significant impact on one's mental health. But is mental health and liberation from samsara one and the same, I wonder? In the short term, we may seem healthier when we have less dosa because of these practices, but are we just polishing the surface and allowing the roots to fester? If we face dosa as it rises without trying to condition its opposites, maybe we are allowing ourselves more opportunities to learn about it, to eradicate it. Again, this takes courage. Anyway, just wanted to pass on this update. Metta, Phil 38911 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:25am Subject: What means 'no control' ? Dear all Several times I tread the term 'no control' in DSG-messages, I didn't notice, one has to select. I thought is is something western philosophers and christian did call 'free will" But now in the thread (especially with #38867) I participate about the differences between animals and human beings (in .. can animals have dukkha) Andrew made this thme arsing and I got curious. Andrew in 38906 "I think Francis Story adheres to the "no control" view of Dhamma. He writes: "The special position of the human being rests on the fact that he alone can consciously direct his own personal current of kamma to a higher or lower density." What do the no-controllers out there in DSG land think of this comment? Is this "conscious directing" the pivotal difference between man and beast?" Phil states "K Sujin's "no control" philosophy rather than Abhidhamma is true". That makes me think some here are talking about a unknown dhammic revolution. But I can'nt find these words in the texts of Sujin I have on my harddisk. Nina in a mail to Naresh: "No permanent creator, no controller of our lives", when she only means God doesn't exist (my words) then that is no problem to me. Or is there a connection with the no-control-theme ? So my question: What means (in Theravada) 'no control' ? Answers without Pail-words are accepted. (The discussion with Andrew and KenH I will continue this night) Metta Joop 38912 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:29am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 60 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå accompanies every citta and also when citta experiences a concept saññå marks and remembers that object. When we are engaged in the activities of our daily life, do we notice that there is recognition or remembrance? We remember how to use different objects, how to eat with fork, knife and spoon, how to turn on the water tap, how to write or how to find our way when we walk in our house or on the street. We take it for granted that we remember all these things. We should know that it is saññå which remembers. When we are reading it is due to saññå that we recognize the letters and know their meaning. However, we should not forget that when we are reading there are also moments of seeing and at such moments saññå performs its function as well. It seems that we see and recognize what we see all at the same time, but this is not so. When we recognize letters and words and remember their meaning, this is not due to one moment of saññå but to many moments of saññå accompanying the cittas which succeed one another in the different processes. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38913 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, op 26-11-2004 05:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What happens to the javana registration after it is > registered? I thought registration was a specialized way of "marking the > object", that is to say conceptualizing the object, similar to what > sanna does. N: Tadarammana-citta, Htoo and I prefer retention. It is only an extra vipaka produced by kamma. In the sensuous planes we like to hang on to objects. There is nothing more to that. It is passive, it has no consequence for further accumulations of kusala and akusala. It reminds us how much we cling to sense objects, it never is enough. It is not marking the object in a special way, sanna marks the object at each moment of citta anyway. It is not conceptualizing the object, it is still the same sense object experienced by seeing, hearing, etc. In the subsequent mind-door process that sense object is experienced again and also retention arises. Nina. 38914 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Hello Phil, I like your posts to Naresh and the suttas you quoted. Very good idea. Nina. op 26-11-2004 15:04 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > "Crossing Over the Flood." (Samyutta Nikaya 38915 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing is vipaka. Hello Phil, op 26-11-2004 11:59 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Would it depend on the individual's accumulation which would > seem dominant, the visual information or the auditory information? > Or the conditioning power of the objects? By object decisive support > condition, or natural decisive support condition? N: Hard to know, but it does not help us much in knowing the present moment. Ph: But ...what we see is vipaka. So if an eye door process has fallen away, > and an ear door > process has intervened, is the following eye door process, if there is one, > vipaka from the > same kamma as the eye door process that had fallen away two processes back? ..... Are they all vipaka of the same > kamma that brings > pleasant or unpleasant objects our way? N: Not necessarily. So many colours are seen at different moments, even hard to tell what is a pleasant object and what an unpleasant object. But does it matter to us? Nina. 38916 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/26/04 10:39:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "That's quite a detailed matter, Larry. But it doesn't sound > like an Abhidhamma analysis to me - it sounds strictly commentarial." > > Hi Howard, > > Okay, commentarial. I thought it read a lot like what you had written. > > Larry > ======================== Well, it is so complex from my Abhidhamma-naive perspectiive that I honestly can't tell whether it supports my understanding or the opposite. I suspect possibly the opposite. But that isn't really my point. My point was the less important one that with with all the process-of-cittas analysis and especially the involvement of bhavanga cittas, the analysis seem to depend on lots of stuff from commentaries that isn't explicitly in the Abhidhamma. But, as I say, my point was a minor one. In any case, I do appreciate your having sent along material that you think might be supportive of what I have been writing. That's most kind of you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38917 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:34am Subject: A Clarification Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/26/04 10:51:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > >T.G. ...doesn't seem supported by a reason and I'd probably disagree with > > >it > >anyway. ;-) > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, that's unimportant anyway, as contact is not a group - it is an > event. > ======================= A clarification - to avoid misunderstanding: What I'm specifically saying is "unimportant anyway" is whether or not the statement " ... even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would have to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon" is supported by reason. I'm *not* saying that whether or not you would agree with that statement is unimportant. Your opinion is certainly important. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38918 From: connieparker Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: Not registering Hi, RobM :) Sorry about copying that long text twice! A digital CMA would be nice, but I typed it out one day because it bothered me not to be able to sweep it under the general same series, same object rug. This just seemed an adventitious time to bring it up. peace, connie 38919 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/26/04 11:27:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 11/26/2004 7:51:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Howard: > No, the suttas explicitly say that phassa is the coming together, the > meeting, the confluence. That is not a group of phenomena - that is a single > > experiential event. > Hi Howard > > We are at a rare disagreement. We don't agree on any aspect of this topic. > > I just would like to see the Sutta reference that states that -- "Contact is > a > single experiential event." The Suttas, rather, say that contact is the > coming together of three things. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We agree that the suttas say that contact is the coming together of three things. We are interpreting that differently, however. You are are looking at the group of three. I am looking at the coming together. I am distinguishing between a group of items and a phenomenon conditioned by the items. In *general*, a group of items may be present in some way but not interacting. When they *do* interact, that interaction is conditioned by the items, but is different from them. In the case of contact, it happens that the items are mutually dependent - one is present only when all are, and when and only when the phenomenon of their contact occurs. But co-occurrence and mutual dependence are not the same as identity. In any case, to you it seems contact is a composite, an amalgam. From my perspective, any amalgam is a mentral projection and concept-only (though often well grounded concept). As I see it, when the sutta says that contact is the coming together of the three, it is that coming together that is the contact, and it is known through no other door than the mind-door. That's my understanding on the basis of the sentence "Contact is the coming together of the three." So, we disagree on this one. No problem. :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > All experiences are supported by multifaceted structures (or events if you > rather.) There is no such thing as one event standing on its own. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think that *any* dhamma stands on its own. But that doesn't mean there are no phenomena that are not amalgams. All phenomena are conditioned, both temporally and atemporally, and no phenomenon is self-existent. That is different, however, from there not occurring *distinguishable* phenomena. By analogy: There is no "up" without a "down", but "up" and down" are distinguishable. ----------------------------------------------- > > None of your conclusions that I can tell come from Sutta sources. They seem > > like things you have concluded on your own, which is fine, just not in > accordance with what the Suttas state. (I do this type of thing as well by > the way.) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We are not differing on what the suttas say. We are differing on what they mean. --------------------------------------------- > > It seems to me that the position you are taking on Contact is more > "Abhidhamma oriented" than even Abhidhamma...if you catch my drift. (You > probably > enjoyed that.) ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, most wretched of men to hurl an epithet so foul! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- > > TG > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38920 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi again, TG - One more conventional analogy. Suppose there is a two-car collision. What is that? It is the coming together of the two cars. Certianly without the two cars, there is no collision. But the cars, individually or as a pair, are not the collision. The collision is the coming together of the cars. That coming together is dependent on but different from the cars, individually and as a pair. How does this conventional analogy differ from the matter of sense contact? The difference is that with the automobile collision situation although the collision depends on both car #1 and car #2, car #1 could exist without car #2 and without the collision, car #2 could exist without car #1 and without the collission, and both cars could exist without the collision. Whereas with respect to contact: Of sense-door, sense-object, sense consciousness, and contact, each depends on all the others, and all occur when any one occurs. However, as with the automobile-collision matter, no group of one or two or all three of activated sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness is the same as the contact of the three. The contact is dependent on but different from the others individually or by group. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38921 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 9:13:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Whereas with respect to contact: Of sense-door, sense-object, sense consciousness, and contact, each depends on all the others, and all occur when any one occurs. Hi Howard I'm not sure on what you mean here. Are you saying that eye (sense base) and form (visual object) (for example) only exist when a visual consciousness arises and there is contact between the three. In other words, are you saying that eye (sense base) and form (visual object) do not exist until a visual consciousness arises? I'll wait on a clarification on this before getting back to some of the other issues. Thanks. TG 38922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Larry, op 27-11-2004 00:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:> Hi Howard and all, > > A reread of Vism.XIV,115 might be relevant here. > > An abhidhamma analysis of the "coming together of the three" says > that an external rupa impinges on sensitive matter then sensitive > matter transfers that impingement to an internal rupa that interrupts > the bhavanga. N: The impingement of an external rupa on a sense organ is a condition of a sense-cognition. I would not say that sensitive matter transfers that impingement to an internal rupa. I would say that the adverting-consciousness interrupts the stream of bhavangas. Cittas arising in a process begin. L: This internal rupa then impinges on 17 consecutive > consciousnesses. N: I am not so happy with internal rupa, unless you mean aayatana, translated as sensebase. The external ayatana of visible object associates with the internal aayatana of eyesense, and this happens during 17 moments of citta, since these rupas have not fallen away. I translated from Thai Dhamma Issues: ,the rúpa of eyesense (cakkhuppasåda rúpa) is the eye-door and the åyatana of the eye (cakkhåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process and that evenso visible object is the åyatana of visible object (rúpåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process. The reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which have not fallen away yet and that they are ³associating² at each moment of citta of the eye-door process >. L:Contact cetasika arises with every consciousness > marking the moment of impingement before or as cognition begins (I > think). This probably isn't quite right. Maybe Nina or Htoo could > correct. N: Contact is not marking, it just contacts the object so that citta can experience it. See my other post on contact. Nina 38923 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 27-11-2004 00:14 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Is adverting consciousness the first time contact cetasika occurs in > citta process? Contact occurs with every consciousness, right? N: Contact (phassa) cetasika accompanies each citta. Bhavangacitta is accompanied by contact which contacts the object of bhavanga-citta. Adverting-consciousness is is accompanied by contact which contacts the object experienced by citta arising in a process. Nina. 38924 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not registering Dear Connie, op 27-11-2004 01:55 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > I think there might be an exception, but I don't really understand this > adventitious-/agantuka- bhavanga citta (below). Is it not considered part > of the process? Is the process considered to have ended with the last > javana? N: The Expositor II, p. 358 also writes about this. So does the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. It seems that the feeling of retention has to conform to the feeling accompanying javanacittas. I did not really study this detail, it is over my head. It is not helpful to me in daily life. I just read it through, so I cannot be of much help here. Nina. 38925 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, op 27-11-2004 00:01 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: N: Aeons do not disturb me, I believe that it is the present moment > that >> matters. > J: What about being mindful of one's death? N: Exactly, there are the three divine messengers of old age, sickness and death. These remind to cultivate the good through body, speech and mind right now, not putting it off. Moreover, we can be reminded that there is birth and death of citta at each moment. This helps to cling less to my important citta. Sure, also householders in the Buddha's time developed jhana. But what is the most urgent for me at this very moment? That is the question. Nina. 38926 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/27/04 1:53:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 11/27/2004 9:13:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Whereas with > respect to contact: Of sense-door, sense-object, sense consciousness, and > contact, each depends on all the others, and all occur when any one occurs. > Hi Howard > > I'm not sure on what you mean here. Are you saying that eye (sense base) > and > form (visual object) (for example) only exist when a visual consciousness > arises and there is contact between the three. In other words, are you > saying > that eye (sense base) and form (visual object) do not exist until a visual > consciousness arises? > > I'll wait on a clarification on this before getting back to some of the > other > issues. Thanks. > > TG ======================= I'm speaking phenomenologically, TG - experientially. When any one of sense-door activation, arising of sense-door object, arising of sense-door conciousness, or arising of sense-door contact occurs, so do all the others. And when any one fails to arise, none of the others do either. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38927 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 11:13:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I'm speaking phenomenologically, TG - experientially. When any one of sense-door activation, arising of sense-door object, arising of sense-door conciousness, or arising of sense-door contact occurs, so do all the others. And when any one fails to arise, none of the others do either. With metta, Howard Got to narrow it dowm more... 1) Does material form arise and cease without the need of an involvement of consciousness? 2) Does the eye exist, as a potential support to consciousness, when it is not involved in conscious processes? These questions may help me understand the way you are thinking about it. It would be good to get a yes or no response with explanations if necessary. Thanks. TG 38928 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:41am Subject: Re: What means 'no control' ? Hello Joop, all, I struggled with the idea of 'no control' when I first was learning about no-self (anatta). You may find it interesting to go to Useful Posts and read the thirty-four posts under the heading 'Anatta2 - No Control?' ... and the seven posts under 'Freewill? Determinism?'. I can't guarantee there will be no Pali at all as this IS dsg, but hopefully it will be minimal. No Control is bound up with Conditionality - every single thing is the result of multiple conditions, nothing occurs without a large network of causes leading to it. So all decisions are the result of everything that has gone before, and this raises the question "is there really this thing called Free Will?" Perhaps it is something which would be better called 'slight choice' - but it is definitely not completely Free. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear all > > Several times I tread the term 'no control' in DSG-messages, I didn't > notice, one has to select. I thought is is something western > philosophers and christian did call 'free will" > > But now in the thread (especially with #38867) I participate about > the differences between animals and human beings (in .. can animals > have dukkha) Andrew made this thme arsing and I got curious. > Andrew in 38906 "I think Francis Story adheres to the "no control" > view of Dhamma. He writes: "The special position of the human being > rests on the fact that he alone can consciously direct his own > personal current of kamma to a higher or lower density." What do the > no-controllers out there in DSG land think of this comment? Is > this "conscious directing" the pivotal difference between man and > beast?" > > Phil states "K Sujin's "no control" philosophy rather than Abhidhamma > is true". That makes me think some here are talking about a unknown > dhammic revolution. But I can'nt find these words in the texts of > Sujin I have on my harddisk. > Nina in a mail to Naresh: "No permanent creator, no controller of our > lives", when she only means God doesn't exist (my words) then that is > no problem to me. Or is there a connection with the no-control- theme ? > > So my question: What means (in Theravada) 'no control' ? Answers > without Pail-words are accepted. > (The discussion with Andrew and KenH I will continue this night) > > Metta > > Joop 38929 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 0:08pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 60 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (g) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå accompanies every citta and also when citta experiences a concept saññå marks and remembers that object. When we are engaged in the activities ..snip.. many moments of saññå accompanying the cittas which succeed one another in the different processes. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, It is all clear.No question. No comment. No different view. But I would like to add some more information. Sanna is a powerful cetasika. I would say my experience. 6 months ago, I got a strange smell. As soon as I smelled that smell I remembered the whole lot of an event 30 years ago. I had not thought that for more than 20 years. I think this is because of sanna. Sometimes a piece of music may bring us back to 20 years before. This also is due to sanna. Taste may make us remember long-passed things. And many others also do the same. I think this is the work of sanna. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38930 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/27/04 2:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Got to narrow it dowm more... > > 1) Does material form arise and cease without the need of an involvement of > consciousness? --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. Moreover, I, in principle, cannot know, the only material form that I can be aware of is experienced form. ---------------------------------------- > 2) Does the eye exist, as a potential support to consciousness, when it is > not involved in conscious processes? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The conventional eye organ ceratinly does, in the usual conventional sense of existence. But the phenomenological eye door is the faculty or ability or power of visual sense, and that exists when activated. ----------------------------------------- > > These questions may help me understand the way you are thinking about it. > It > would be good to get a yes or no response with explanations if necessary. > Thanks. > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38931 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations Hi Rob and Nina, For me, "accumulations" or "decisive support condition" is a very unsatisfactory answer to the question why does desire arise in a 5- door process unless you can show the presence of an accumulation or decisive support conditionER in the 5-door process. Whatever happens happens in the present. So if something in the past conditions something in the present you have to show how that happens in the present. It's no good for satipatthana to simply say it happens this way. We have to see it. Here's a possible scenario I came up with this morning. Sanna in all the resultant consciousnesses in the 5-door process recognizes that the object is desirable or undesirable and simply because of this identification desire or aversion arises with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. Repeating this process many times the feeling of desire or aversion is married to the sense consciousness giving the deluded impression (nimitta) that sense consciousness arises with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. It is this feeling that conditions subsequent, more kammically active, desire. This desire leads to clinging, becoming, and so on, and conforms in this way to the dependent arising formula. The task of satipatthana is to winkle out the elements of this marriage and see exactly what is going on. One way to do this is to look more closely at sense consciousness, see what is really seen, and notice the feeling that arises with that consciousness. When desire arises in a 5-door process there has to be an error somewhere and satipatthana has to be able to see it in the present. Recognizing an object as desirable isn't necessarily an error but desiring it is. Is that right??? Maybe it is just the view accompanying the desire that is erroneous. At any rate, identifying the pleasant feeling of desire with the sense consciousness is an error. Of course body-door process is an exception to the above. I'm ready to concede that tadarammana isn't a memory machine and is only the smacking of the lips at the end of a desirable sensual experience or an "ugh" at the end of an undesirable sensual experience. So I guess that leaves sanna cetasika with the burden of supporting all memory functions. In an eye-door process with desirable object when desire arises in javana what feeling arises with tadarammana? Larry 38932 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? In a message dated 11/27/2004 3:26:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: So my question: What means (in Theravada) 'no control' ? Answers without Pail-words are accepted. (The discussion with Andrew and KenH I will continue this night) Metta Joop Hi Joop Basically no-control means that the potential actions, thoughts, etc. we perform are subject to the "conditions" that impact us. The mind can make decisions and efforts; but those efforts are dependent upon the totality of influences: physical and psychological influences, that make up what we are. You can attain anything, including enlightenment, by making an effort as long as there are the conditions present to be able to make that effort. We can study and be inspired by the Buddha's teachings only if the conditions were already in place for us due to the Buddha. We can still attain enlightenment without the Buddha if we do it on our own by realizing the actuality of natural processes. In this case, impermanence, death, disease, suffering, would be the conditions to inspire the mind. (This would be much harder to do though because the conditions to support it, without the Buddha's teaching to explain and inspire, would be slim.) No-control does not mean no-effort. A high quality effort needs to be made to achieve a high quality result. The potential supporting conditions may be (and probably are) available for you to attain a noble mind. A noble mind requires a noble effort ... to find and develop noble influences. This e-mail is a condition, the computer is a condition, your parents were conditions, the air is a condition, the sun is a condition, etc., etc., etc., for your mind to do what it will do. All of these things, all experiences, are only conditions; there is no "self" to control. TG 38933 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 138) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 121 total cittas 40 lokuttara cittas and their accompanying cetasikas have been discussed. So there left 81 loki cittas. 121 - 40 = 81 These 81 cittas are a) 12 arupavacara cittas b) 15 rupavacara cittas c) 24 kama sobhana cittas d) 12 akusala cittas e) 18 ahetuka cittas -------------------- 81 loki cittas Now we are discussing at molecular level as we have discussed at atomic level. Atomic level means 'we have discussed each of 121 cittas separately, each of 52 cetasikas separately, each of 28 rupas separately, 1 nibbana, and pannatti. When 2 Oxygen atoms are linked with a bond, these 2 atoms become a molecule. When 2 atoms of citta and cetasikas are combined, then we are seeing at molecular level. We have discussed how each cetasika can arise in different citta, the whole of which is just contemplation. Now we look at the view on molecular level. 121 cittas are realities and they can be understood and realized. We have discussed on 40 lokuttara cittas. Now we are going to investigate into 81 loki cittas. The first 2 as enumerated above are arupa jhana cittas and rupa jhana cittas. They are collectively called mahaggata cittas. There are in total 27 mahaggata cittas. 12 + 15 = 27 mahaggata cittas. These 27 cittas can be divided into 5 groups according to jhanic factors. So they all will fall into different groups according to their jhana cetasikas. There are 3 1st jhana, 3 2nd jhana, 3 3rd jhana, 3 4th jhana and 3 5th rupa jhana cittas. All 12 arupa jhana cittas have the same cetasikas as 5th rupa jhana cittas. So all these 12 cittas can be called as 5th jhana cittas and there are 15 5th jhana cittas. 3 1st jhana cittas are 1st jhana rupakusala citta, rupavipaka citta and rupakiriya citta. Each of these cittas is accompanied by 7 universal cetasikas, 6 particular cetasikas, 19 universal sobhana cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasika and 1 pannindriya cetasika altogether 35 cetasikas. 3 virati cetasikas do not arise in loki jhana cittas or mahaggata cittas. 3 2nd jhana cittas are 2nd jhana rupakusala, rupavipaka, rupakiriya cittas. As vitakka does not arise in 2nd jhana cittas, 35 cetasikas of 1st jhana leave out vitakka cetasika when 2nd jhana cittas arise. So there are a total of 34 cetasikas in 3 2nd jhana cittas. In 3 3rd jhana cittas, as vicara does not arise in 3rd jhana cittas, there arise 33 cetasikas.In 3 4th jhana cittas, as piti does not arise in 4th jhana cittas, there arise 32 cetasikas. In 15 5th jhana cittas, karuna and mudita cetasikas do not arise and there are only 30 cetasikas. In above mentioned combination, there are exceptions. That is when karuna arises, mudita cannot arise and when mudita arises, karuna cannot arise. They are mutually exclusive in a citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. *** I do understand the heaviness of many Pali words. But if one produce enough effort to understand Dhamma, they will definitely grasp the essence of Dhamma. Simple English sometimes does not work and even makes misunderstanding. 38934 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Thanks Andrew, Ken H, TG and Christine Andrew: I would have thought that, for no-controllers, humans and animals are pretty much in the same boat in having no control over mind. Joop: surprise number one: introduction of the term 'control' in the discussion on the difference animals - human beings. I asked this morning the DSG what this concept means. I doubt it's a good (a useful) concept for understanding the difference or non-difference. I looked at some of the DSG messages Christine adviced me. Free will versus determinism was I discussion I followed before I converted myself to a Theravadin and I understand the roots of the term 'control' now. I agree with Christine's "Perhaps it is something which would be better called 'slight choice' ". To me a slight choice is enough, I'm not a perfectionist. Andrew: SO, does that mean that there is really no important difference at all between animals and people who do not hear and practice the Dhamma? Ken H: They have different rupa and latent tendencies! :-) Surprise number two: what are latent tendencies ? I cannot belief that's Abhidhamma I'm glad we agree on the idea that the differences between animals and human beings are very small. But I don't think it's a good idee to make a division between human beings who practice the Dhamma on the one side and animals plus human beings who don't practice on the other side. Metta Joop 38935 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Thanks Christime and TG, I continued at # 38934 Metta Joop 38936 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Nina, See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 27-11-2004 00:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:> Hi Howard and all, > > > > A reread of Vism.XIV,115 might be relevant here. > > > > An abhidhamma analysis of the "coming together of the three" says > > that an external rupa impinges on sensitive matter then sensitive > > matter transfers that impingement to an internal rupa that interrupts > > the bhavanga. > N: The impingement of an external rupa on a sense organ is a condition of a > sense-cognition. I would not say that sensitive matter transfers that > impingement to an internal rupa. > I would say that the adverting-consciousness interrupts the stream of > bhavangas. Cittas arising in a process begin. > L: This is what I had in mind: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 115. (c) With the life-continuum continuity occurring thus, when living beings' faculties have become capable of apprehending an object, then, when a visible datum has come into the eye's focus, there is impinging upon the eye-sensitivity due to the visible datum. Thereupon, owing to the impact's influence, there comes to be a disturbance in [the continuity of] the life-continuum.46 Then, when the life-continuum has ceased, the functional mind-element (70) arises making that same visible datum its object, as it were, cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. So too in the case of the ear door and so on. ----------------------------- Note 46. ' "A disturbance in the life-continuum" is a wavering of the life-continuum consciousness; the meaning is that there is the arrival at a state that is a reason for dissimilarity in its occurrence twice in that way. For it is called disturbance (calana) because it is like a disturbance (movement) since there seems to be a cause for an occasion (avatthaa) in the mind's continuity different from the previous occasion. Granted, firstly, that there is impact on the sensitivity owing to confrontation with an object, since the necessity for that is established by the existence of the objective field and the possessor of the objective field, but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478). L: The "other grain of sugar" or the fly is what I am calling an internal rupa. How does there come to be disturbance of the life- continuum that has a different support? Clearly consciousness never leaves the mind-door (bhavanga). So in order to impinge on consciousness sense-door impingement has to enter the mind-door somehow. I assume "different support" means different sense-base. This suggests 2 rupas to me, internal and external, and explains a little how defective organs impinge on consciousness with erroneous data. How do you see it? snip> > L:Contact cetasika arises with every consciousness > > marking the moment of impingement before or as cognition begins (I > > think). This probably isn't quite right. Maybe Nina or Htoo could > > correct. > N: Contact is not marking, it just contacts the object so that citta can > experience it. See my other post on contact. > Nina L: This was just a fugure of speech. The sutta reference I gave about the flayed cow suggests to me that contact is preliminary consciousness. One thing that is hard to understand, how can there be consciousness of rupa that is not sense consciousness? I have a habit of thinking of the object of 5-door process as sense consciousness but it isn't. The object is rupa. Sense consciousness can only be an object in mind- door process. Larry 38937 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 12:13:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/27/04 2:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Got to narrow it dowm more... > > 1) Does material form arise and cease without the need of an involvement of > consciousness? --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. Moreover, I, in principle, cannot know, the only material form that I can be aware of is experienced form. ---------------------------------------- Hi Howard TG The Buddha certainly spent a lot of time discussing the arising and ceasing of phenomena of past, present, and future. Certainly this shows that as a principle, the Buddha was able to say that all conditioned phenomena were impermanent, even phenomena that he didn't directly experience. His descriptions of impermanence, especially of the future, generally dealt with material phenomena. It seems here your position will not allow you to accept knowledge based on principles: unless you can actually experience it. I would consider this a "phenomenology tunnel vision" that the Buddha didn't subscribe to. > 2) Does the eye exist, as a potential support to consciousness, when it is > not involved in conscious processes? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The conventional eye organ ceratinly does, in the usual conventional sense of existence. But the phenomenological eye door is the faculty or ability or power of visual sense, and that exists when activated. ----------------------------------------- TG I can go along with this, but it seems to contradict what you said above. How can you know it exists if you can't experience? Isn't the eye organ material form? Above you said that -- "I, in principle, cannot know, the only material form that I can be aware of is experienced form." The Buddha's teaching is not hammered-out reasoning. But it is not without reasoning. It combines direct knowledge and reasoning. Otherwise, why would the Buddha talk about death, decaying bodies, etc., as motivations for making an effort to overcome suffering? This was so we could reason the logic of making an effort to develop the Path. Certainly a dead decaying body is not aware of what is happening to it. I guess its beyond my knowledgeable experience, but I'm going to 'throw caution to the wind' and make that claim anyway. :-) These questions and answers helped to clarify to me the differences in the way we see it. Its not merely a matter of semantics, there are some definite differences in viewpoint. But that's a good thing too. I've got a Sutta quote for you, but I'm going to put it in another e-mail because this one is too jumbled already. TG > > These questions may help me understand the way you are thinking about it. > It > would be good to get a yes or no response with explanations if necessary. > Thanks. > > ======================= With metta, Howard 38938 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:01pm Subject: Re: Transforming dosa revisited (was Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hello everyone > Also, for some > reason I had > always had an aversion for small yappy dogs, the kind whose owners put > little sweaters > and booties on them. I identified the consistency of my aversion for these > dogs and > their owners and thought it was very petty of me, so I reflected on them and > felt > mudita for the love that was involved on the owners part. > > Lo and behold, I came to have a friendly feeling towards these yappy dogs Yesterday I was looking through some essays I started to write last year about my walks in the park and came across this bit that I thought I would share with you related to the above dogs. Not bad, if I say so myself! " One day when I was walking in the park I learned a lesson about myself from watching dogs. It happened over two days, actually. On the first day, I saw two very serene and peaceful old dogs - one pushed in a pram, the other carried in his owner's bicycle basket. The first was a beagle, too old to walk, but still eager to enjoy a stroll in the park, the sunshine and the fresh air. He looked out from the pram with very peaceful eyes, still bright with curiosity, but at peace. The second was a shiba-ken (a kind of Japanese dog) and as is always the case with those dogs, he seemed to be smiling as he peered out from the basket, with the calm good cheer shiba-ken always seem to have, in my experience anyways. And as I walked I thought about the peace of mind those two old dogs had seemed to find, and wished that I too would come to be peaceful in that way. The following day as I walked I came across a dog that was behaving in a very different way. He was one of the small brown short-haired dogs that look a bit rat-like, and was straining at the end of his owner's leash, yapping furiously. He was wearing a kind of knitted sweater. It seems that dogs that wear those kind of sweaters tend to be the dogs that yap. And as I swung a bite wide of him to avoid his snapping, fighting back a natural tendency to feel irritated about being barked at, I remembered the dogs from the day before and thought in quite a self-pleased way that I was much more like they were, serene, at peace with the world, that my yapping days were done. I felt very pleased with myself indeed. But then as I came around the park on the next lap around I saw the dog that had been yapping so fiercely a few minutes earlier now nosing around peacefully amoung the good smells of the damp earth and the decomposing leaves, in the middle of the park, in the sunshine, and I realized that he hadn't been barking because he was angry, it was because he was so happy to be in the park and just wanted to get off that damned leash. And I realized that I had shown my spirituality immaturity when I leaped out so eager to judge him, without first seeing him with a friendly eye, an eye that would have allowed me to notice the leash first and recognize the dog's desire to get free and nose around, which is what we all want to do. I won't judge people, or dogs, so quickly based on their behaviour when I seem them just that once. I will look deeper into them, to the place where we all want to be happy, and greet them with a smile first and leave the harsh examination for the police. " Now I would say that wisdom will allow me to look deeper into them - it is not something that I can control. And I will think about the Dhamma implications of wanting to nose around! What is real freedom? What is the meaning of the leash? Metta, Phil 38939 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/27/04 4:30:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 11/27/2004 12:13:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, TG - > > In a message dated 11/27/04 2:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > TGrand458@a... writes: > > >Got to narrow it dowm more... > > > >1) Does material form arise and cease without the need of an involvement of > > >consciousness? > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know. Moreover, I, in principle, cannot know, the only > material form that I can be aware of is experienced form. > ---------------------------------------- > > Hi Howard > > TG The Buddha certainly spent a lot of time discussing the arising and > ceasing of phenomena of past, present, and future. Certainly this shows > that as a > principle, the Buddha was able to say that all conditioned phenomena were > impermanent, even phenomena that he didn't directly experience. His > descriptions > of impermanence, especially of the future, generally dealt with material > phenomena. > ------------------------------------- Howard: So far as I know, regardless of his conventioanl anguage, the Buddha did not believe in any phenomena that are other than present phenomena. I belive that he said the past no longer exists, and the future does not yet exist. ---------------------------------- > > It seems here your position will not allow you to accept knowledge based on > principles: unless you can actually experience it. I would consider this a > "phenomenology tunnel vision" that the Buddha didn't subscribe to. > ------------------------------------ Howard: My phenomenalism is far more complex than that, but I certainly don't want to get into that. It is not central to the Dhamma. Only the 4 noble truths, the tilakkhana, dependent origination, etc are. -------------------------------------- > > >2) Does the eye exist, as a potential support to consciousness, when it is > >not involved in conscious processes? > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > The conventional eye organ ceratinly does, in the usual conventional > sense of existence. But the phenomenological eye door is the faculty or > ability > or power of visual sense, and that exists when activated. > ----------------------------------------- > > TG I can go along with this, but it seems to contradict what you said > above. How can you know it exists if you can't experience? Isn't the eye > organ > material form? Above you said that -- "I, in principle, cannot know, the > only > material form that I can be aware of is experienced form." > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, my phenomenalism is complex. It involves potentialities along with actualities, and it involves a conditionality I call a counterfactual conditionality. I don't really want to get into it. But most to the point, I suppose, is that from my point of view, my viewpoint is not "To exist means to be perceived", but instead means "To exist is to be perceivable", and that is where the counterfactuality comes in. ---------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha's teaching is not hammered-out reasoning. But it is not without > reasoning. It combines direct knowledge and reasoning. Otherwise, why > would > the Buddha talk about death, decaying bodies, etc., as motivations for > making > an effort to overcome suffering? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course conventional knowledge is important. I certainly do not deny that. ------------------------------------------------ This was so we could reason the logic of > > making an effort to develop the Path. Certainly a dead decaying body is not > aware > of what is happening to it. I guess its beyond my knowledgeable experience, > > but I'm going to 'throw caution to the wind' and make that claim anyway. > :-) > > These questions and answers helped to clarify to me the differences in the > way we see it. Its not merely a matter of semantics, there are some > definite > differences in viewpoint. But that's a good thing too. > > I've got a Sutta quote for you, but I'm going to put it in another e-mail > because this one is too jumbled already. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Okay, thanks. :-) --------------------------------- > > TG > > > > >These questions may help me understand the way you are thinking about it. > >It > >would be good to get a yes or no response with explanations if necessary. > >Thanks. > > > > > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38940 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hello Joop, all, Yes, I think 'latent dispositions' or 'latent tendencies' are part of the Dhamma and Abhidhamma. Another Pali word :-) - anusaya - might help clarify this. The entry in Nyanatiloka's dictionary of Buddhist Terms and Doctrine is: "anusaya: the 7 'proclivities', inclinations, or tendencies are: sensuous greed (káma-rága, s. samyojana), grudge (patigha), speculative opinion (ditthi, q.v.), skeptical doubt (vicikicchá, q.v.), conceit (mána, q.v.), craving for continued existence (bhavarága), ignorance (avijjá, q.v.) (D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12)." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm and the Pali Text Society definition is: "Anusaya (p. 44) [anu + si, seti Sk. anusaya has a diff. meaning] (see Kvu trsl. 234 n. 2 and Cpd. 172 n. 2). Bent, bias, proclivity, the persistance of a dormant or latent disposition, predisposition, tendency. Always in bad sense. In the oldest texts the word usually occurs absolutely, without mention of the cause or direction of the bias. So Sn. 14 = 369, 545; M. III.31; S. III.130, IV.33, V.28 236; A. I.44; II.157; III.74, 246, 443. Or in the triplet obstinacy, prejudice and bias (adhitthanabhinivesanusaya) S. II.17; III.10, 135, 161; A. V.III. Occasionally a source of the bias is mentioned. Thus pride at S. I.188; II.252 ff., 275; III.80, 103, 169, 253; IV.41, 197; A I.132, IV.70 doubt at M. I.486 -- ignorance lust and hatred at S IV.205, M III.285. At D III.254, 282; S V.60; and A IV.9. we have a list of seven anusaya's, the above five and delusion and craving for rebirth. Hence-forward these lists govern the connotation of the word; but it would be wrong to put that connotation back into the earlier passages. Later references are Ps I.26, 70 ff., 123, 130, 195; II.36, 84, 94, 158; Pug 21; Vbh 340, 383, 356; Kvu 405 ff. Dpvs I.42." http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ According to the back Index, Latent Disposition is mentioned in 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' at ch. VIII 9, 14. Perhaps some of the Abhidhammikas would be kind enough to comment further here. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Thanks Christime and TG, I continued at # 38934 > > Metta > > Joop 38941 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: But what is > the most urgent for me at this very moment? That is the question. > Nina. Friend Nina, You mean this very moment? You mean this very, very moment? Oops… you mean that moment that just went past? Oops…there is goes again. Dang…all these moments keep going away. What moment do you mean? That one?....whoosh…that one?....whoosh….that one?....whoosh. Gosh, all these moments keep slipping away! What can you do at this very moment? Nothing really…each moment is gone, gone, gone…just watch it go away. This question isn't what can you do at this very moment…that is an impossible question to answer, as I just illustrated. The question is what can you do with your life? With your life you can follow the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 38942 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Nina If all things were going without our awarness then how are those people who are extremely sucessful in their work & respective proffesional and they can really concentrate & achive things which are impossible for any common person.And this also includes super spiritual power. Isnt there some source within us from where we can take our lives where we want to ? My confusion still lies why we cant change things if we know this is not accordingly going or wrong. And along with mind there is Brain also. Everybody has a brain and one can use it to extreme as per some knowldege we use as little as 10-15 % of brain. Is there any description about Supreme power in Pali and yes gods like brahma are subject to death. but above them there is a supreme power where ther is no life & death. so all this queries are involved before coming to mind. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > op 26-11-2004 04:15 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y...: > > When we are born we are not born with this > defilements > > or impurities...this develops as we grow older or > is > > it tht we are born with it ? > > As as a child we dont diferientiate between any > human > > being and so mind is so pure. > Nina: We are born with all the defilements > accumulated in former lives. We > carry a heavy burden, don't we? > A baby cannot act much, he has to develop, but all > inclinations to good or > evil are there within him. You can notice that one > baby cries all the time, > wants attention, loses its temper, whilst another is > very sweet and calm. > They have different characters. Also their bodies > are different: handsome or > ugly or even handicapped. The Buddha explains that > kamma causes persons to > be ugly or beautiful, weak and subject to illness or > healthy. > > Naresh: i understand this life we are living is an > impression > > of all conditions, we understand this but again we > > forget and we forget so much tht it is too > difficult > > to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but > still > > the same thing happens. > Nina: This is true for all of us worldlings. We have > lack of alertness, even > though we try. We can learn from such experiences. > Our moods and emotions > change so fast, this is reality whether we like it > or not. But we can have > more understanding of reality. We can learn that > unwholesomeness is > conditioned, that there is no self who is a > possessor. We are empty > phenomena going on because of conditions. > Understanding of the phenomena of > our life can be developed and even lead to the > eradication of defilements. > > Naresh: And regarding god, it is dificult to not > accept that > > ther eis no supernatural power which controls us > as if > > we consider the great epics like Bhagwat Gita, > Kuran , > > Bible which still people follow & they get > benifited. > > So pls comment on this matter also. > Nina: We can think of god, but we cannot verify his > existence or > non-existence. He exists in a person's thinking. We > can only learn more > about what is here now: seeing and the defilements > arising on account of > what we see, hearing and the defilements on account > of what we hear. But all > these phenomena are impermanent, disappear > immediately. They are beyond > control, no self. You cannot make them last. The > Buddha taught that all > phenomena are impermanent and not self. No self > within us or outside of us. > No permanent creator, no controller of our lives. > The source of this is the > scriptures. > I respect all religions and their books contain > great advices for human > behaviour. However the Buddha taught us not to > follow any holy books but to > develop our own understanding. And we have to begin > at this very moment, > here is the dhamma we can immediately verify. Are we > not seeing, hearing, > are there not defilements arising? That is what we > can experience, that is > what we can understand more and more as impermanent > and not self. > > Naresh; And where do i get more understanding of > buddha > > teachings and where do i find the source from? > Nina: Reading, studying, discussing. We are > discussing right now. You have > to develop understanding yourself, nobody can > prescribe you what to do. > Nina. > 38943 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:30pm Subject: Poor Correspondence Dear Friends, The time I have to devote to DSG has recently been overwhelmed by the current rate of postings. I've just deleted 187 messages from my DSG subdirectory, most without review. I've tried to save those directed to myself; my heartfelt apologies to the many whose messages deserved at least a civil response. I'll continue to reply as practically able. mike ---------- 38944 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:57pm Subject: Vism.XIV,117 Vism.XIV,118 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 117. (d)-(h) Next to adverting,47 taking the eye door first, 'eye-consciousness' (d) arises accomplishing the function of 'seeing' in the eye door and having the eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. And [likewise] (e) 'ear-', (f) 'nose-', (g) 'tongue-', and (h) 'body-consciousness' arise, accomplishing respectively the functions of 'hearing', etc., in the ear door and so on. These comprise the profitable resultant [consciousnesses] (34)-(38) with respect to desirable and desirable-neutral objective fields, and the unprofitable resultant (50)-(54) with respect to undesirable and undesirable-neutral objective fields. This is how the occurrence of ten kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. --------------------- Note 47. ' "Next to adverting" means next to five-door adverting. For those who do not admit the cognitive series beginning with receiving, just as they do not admit the heart basis, the Pali has been handed down in various places in the way beginning "For the eye-consciousness element as receiving (sampa.ticchanaaya cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa)" (see Ch. IV, n.13); for the Pali cannot be contradicted' (Pm.479). The quotation as it stands is not traced to the Pi.takas. ---------------------- 118. (i) Because of the words 'Eye-consciousness having arisen and ceased, next to that there arises consciousness, mind, mentation ... which is appropriate mind-element' (Vbh.88), etc., next to eye-consciousness, etc., and 'receiving' the same objective fields as they [deal with], mind-element arises as (39) profitable resultant next to profitable resultant [eye-consciousness, etc.,] and as (55) unprofitable resultant next to [459] unprofitable resultant [eye-consciousness, and so on]. This is how the occurrence of two kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as receiving. 38945 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 2:09:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: So far as I know, regardless of his conventioanl anguage, the Buddha did not believe in any phenomena that are other than present phenomena. I belive that he said the past no longer exists, and the future does not yet exist. ---------------------------------- TG Hi Howard. This seems like just another way of saying that -- only the present is presently occuring. Sounds good to me and in accordance with Suttas > > It seems here your position will not allow you to accept knowledge based on > principles: unless you can actually experience it. I would consider this a > "phenomenology tunnel vision" that the Buddha didn't subscribe to. > ------------------------------------ Howard: My phenomenalism is far more complex than that, but I certainly don't want to get into that. It is not central to the Dhamma. Only the 4 noble truths, the tilakkhana, dependent origination, etc are. -------------------------------------- TG Yes, but how we understand phenomena impacts the understanding of these matters. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, my phenomenalism is complex. It involves potentialities along with actualities, and it involves a conditionality I call a counterfactual conditionality. I don't really want to get into it. But most to the point, I suppose, is that from my point of view, my viewpoint is not "To exist means to be perceived", but instead means "To exist is to be perceivable", and that is where the counterfactuality comes in. TG If you are working on a paper involving this idea, I would be an interested reader when its available. Below is the quote I promised. It shows another way the Buddha presented the structure of consciousness and therefore contact (as structuring state.) In this presentation, the Buddha seems to me to describe a "pre-existing" material object and material base as supports for consciousness... “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 1172) Note the description of contact... “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact." This quote to me states that eye and forms are events that occur prior to contact. Here the Buddha states that consciousness "comes to be" on a structure of these two (dyad). Since these two things are impermanent, consciousness, which is dependent on them, must also be impermanent. Here's another quote that supports a similar idea... “This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it.â€? (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, #77) Here the Buddha says ... consciousness is supported by the Four Great Elements and bound up with it. Since consciousness is supported and bound up with the Four Great Elements, it doesn't seem feasible that contact is "only mental." TG 38946 From: Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/27/04 9:36:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Below is the quote I promised. It shows another way the Buddha presented > the > structure of consciousness and therefore contact (as structuring state.) In > > this presentation, the Buddha seems to me to describe a "pre-existing" > material object and material base as supports for consciousness... > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I understand how you could read it that way. But I do not. I think this merely emphasizes the dependence of consciousness on sense object and sense base, but I don't take that to be a temporal dependence. ------------------------------------------ > > “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, > monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence > on > eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Without activated visual faculty (eye) and visual form there is no visual consciousness. That is what is being put forward. That is the particular conditionality being addressed. I don't see that as implying that activated visual faculty or presence of visual form can exist without visual consciouness also existing. That is, I don't see this conditionality as a temporal one. -------------------------------------------- The eye is impermanent, > > changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming > otherwise. > Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming > otherwise. > “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The > cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also > impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in > dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is > called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming > otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also > impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in > dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one > perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, > changing, > becoming otherwise. > [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same > > manner and finishes with...] > “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in > dependence on a dyad.â€? > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 1172) > -------------------------------------- Howard: BTW, I think the foregoing is a marvelous presentation of anicca. I particularly like the phrase "moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." ------------------------------------- > > Note the description of contact... “The meeting, the encounter, the > occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact." > > This quote to me states that eye and forms are events that occur prior to > contact. Here the Buddha states that consciousness "comes to be" on a > structure > of these two (dyad). Since these two things are impermanent, consciousness, > > which is dependent on them, must also be impermanent. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I see the meeting as a co-arising. Where are they "hanging out" before meeting? In particular, where is the consciousness "hanging out" prior to contact. If it exists prior to contact, at that time what is it a consciousness of? (See what I mean?) -------------------------------------------- > > Here's another quote that supports a similar idea... > > “This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great > elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice > and > porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to > dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported > by it and > bound up with it.â€? > (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, The > Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, #77) > > Here the Buddha says ... consciousness is supported by the Four Great > Elements and bound up with it. Since consciousness is supported and bound > up with > the Four Great Elements, it doesn't seem feasible that contact is "only > mental." > --------------------------------------- Howard: Pleasant feeling resulting from soothing warmth is supported by and bound up with the rupa of the great element of fire. Nonetheless, that pleasant feeling is vedana, a type of nama. In any case, phassa is always understood belong to the sankharakkhanda, which makes it nama. Certainly it isn't rupa, is it? What is left besides rupas Just vedana, sankhara, sa~n~na and vi~n~nana, all nama. --------------------------------------- > > TG > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38947 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi Joop and Christine No control actually means that it is fertile to control the conditions because it is Anatta. The only we way we could develop panna or understanding of the three characteristics is seeing conditions as they arise as they fall. We cannot control conditions that does not meant we cannot see it as it is. I like the example Phil gave on eradicating dosa (in fact I think his mails are full of sincerely and honestly where he share his experiences with us). Suppressing dosa using metta meditation is like putting a cap into a volcano. Only when we see dosa in terms of its characteristics, then the eradication of dosa is possibe. When we try to control Anatta, that is to me suicidal because anatta cannot be control, if anatta can be control, Buddha would have prevent himself from getting hurt (I think his toe) by his own past kamma. Regarding latent tendecies, take it has habitual effect. Some said it as primodial instinct. In the suttas, Buddha sometimes use the analogy of an infant to describe latency. How come an infant known how to be angry or crave for things, these are habitual. Latency is to me the habitual effect we have habitually reinforce throughout the countless lives. Ken O 38948 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hello Ken (Joop), all, Ken says: > No control actually means that it is \fertile\ to control the > conditions because it is Anatta. I take it this is a typo and that you mean 'It is \futile\ to control the conditions because it is Anatta'. If so, we are in agreement. Too many conditions, known and unknown. But I think a choice is possible - what else is cetana except intention and volition? I agree that latent tendencies are habitual reactions - but Joop was asking about where they appear in the Abhidhamma. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Joop and Christine > > No control actually means that it is fertile to control the > conditions because it is Anatta. The only we way we could develop > panna or understanding of the three characteristics is seeing > conditions as they arise as they fall. We cannot control conditions > that does not meant we cannot see it as it is. I like the example > Phil gave on eradicating dosa (in fact I think his mails are full of > sincerely and honestly where he share his experiences with us). > Suppressing dosa using metta meditation is like putting a cap into a > volcano. Only when we see dosa in terms of its characteristics, then > the eradication of dosa is possibe. When we try to control Anatta, > that is to me suicidal because anatta cannot be control, if anatta > can be control, Buddha would have prevent himself from getting hurt > (I think his toe) by his own past kamma. > > Regarding latent tendecies, take it has habitual effect. Some said > it as primodial instinct. In the suttas, Buddha sometimes use the > analogy of an infant to describe latency. How come an infant known > how to be angry or crave for things, these are habitual. Latency is > to me the habitual effect we have habitually reinforce throughout the > countless lives. > > > Ken O 38949 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:13am Subject: z-Audio discussion -- A. Sujin Dear Friends, We've uploaded the first 20 minutes of the discussion from India (in 5 minute segments approx) into the files section under: z-Audio discussion -- A. Sujin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ This first discussion took place in the lobby of our hotel in Bodh Gaya on our first morning in India. The friend who is asking the questions is Jill from Queensland. We all found it a great start of many more to come. I look forward to any comments from any of you who are able to listen to it. (Please keep in mind that all these discussions have been recorded and edited by Jon and I with a simple recording microphone and are therefore not professional quality.) The rest of this discussion and all the others will be put in the dsg.org archive back-up site asap. (I'll let you know when). Metta, Sarah ===== 38950 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:20am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** The study of saññå can remind us that cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. Countless moments of saññå succeed one another and perform their function so that we can remember successive events such as sentences we hear when someone is speaking. There are moments of hearing and the saññå which accompanies hearing-consciousness merely perceives the sound, it does not know the meaning of what is said. When we understand the meaning of what has been said there are cittas which experience concepts and the saññå which accompanies those cittas remembers and ‘marks’ a concept. Because of many moments of saññå we can follow the trend of thought of a speaker or we ourselves can reason about something, connect parts of an argument and draw conclusions. All this is not due to ‘our memory’ but to saññå which is not self but only a kind of nåma. What we take for ‘our memory’ or ‘our recognition’ is not one moment which stays, but many different moments of saññå which arise and fall away. Because of saññå past experiences and also concepts and names are remembered, people and things are recognized. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38951 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Ken (Joop), all, > > Ken says: > > No control actually means that it is \fertile\ to control the > > conditions because it is Anatta. > > I take it this is a typo and that you mean 'It is \futile\ to > control the conditions because it is Anatta'. If so, we are in > agreement. > Too many conditions, known and unknown. But I think a choice is > possible - what else is cetana except intention and volition? Dear Christine and Ken I think we can use the 'slight choice' (of free will) as Christine called it to stop the fatalistic steps of D.O. An important moment, so I learned in my insight- (vipasana-) meditation is between 'feeling' and 'craving', every time a little bit we can stop the automatism of that step. Important to me is also the Upanisa Sutta, called by Bhikkhu Bodhi "Transcendental Dependent Arising" (The Wheel Publication No. 277/278) See under this message. I call it for myself the 'Optimistic variant of Theravada', because the emphasis is laid upon getting out samsara. What is central is the jump to faith: we had to develop faith. Metta Joop Mundane Order Ignorance (avijja) Kamma formations (sankhara) Consciousness (viññana) Mentality-materiality (namarupa) Sixfold sense base (salayatana) Contact (phassa) Feeling (vedana) Craving (tanha) Clinging (upadana) Existence (bhava) Birth (jati) Suffering (dukkha) Transcendental Order Faith (saddha) Joy (pamojja) Rapture (piti) Tranquillity (passaddhi) Happiness (sukha) Concentration (samadhi) Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana) Disenchantment (nibbida) Dispassion (viraga) Emancipation (vimutti) Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana) 38952 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > Dear Christine and Ken > I think we can use the 'slight choice' (of free will) as Christine > called it to stop the fatalistic steps of D.O. An important moment, > so I learned in my insight- (vipasana-) meditation is >between 'feeling' and 'craving', every time a little bit we can stop > the automatism of that step. That was a typo: I mean we can pu ta wedge between 'phassa' and 'vedana' in insight-meditation Metta Joop 38953 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi Christine Yup you are right :) thanks for pointing out. I would not say choice I would say attend as it comes and not purposely to attend it. Call it wise attention All the taints MN 2 << "He attends wisely: this is suffering; he attends wisely: This is origin of suffering; he attends wisely: this is the cessation of suffering; he attends wisely this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abondaned in him: personality view, doubt and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.">> Everytime there arise a wise attention, there would be volition so need to worry about choice :). Glad to see you having back your internet mail connection. > I agree that latent tendencies are habitual reactions - but Joop > was asking about where they appear in the Abhidhamma. There is a book all about latency but unfornuately it has not been translated yet. I though Nina was writing something about it. When I come across it in the translated books that I have, I will write it out for him Ken O 38954 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi TG and Howard Regarding your questions about eye, base and citta, I hope this help in your discussion MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness." Ken O 38955 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi Joop Faith is a very important starting point in following the path of salvation. Below are two suttas extracts. MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta) <> MN95 "Exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "But what quality is most helpful for exertion? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for exertion." "Contemplating is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion." "But what quality is most helpful for contemplating?..." "Being willing... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate..." "But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..." "Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..." "But what quality is most helpful for desire?..." "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise..." "But what quality is most helpful for coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas?..." "Penetrating the meaning... If one didn't penetrate the meaning, one wouldn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas..." "But what quality is most helpful for penetrating the meaning?..." "Remembering the Dhamma... If one didn't remember the Dhamma, one wouldn't penetrate the meaning..." "But what quality is most helpful for remembering the Dhamma?... " "Hearing the Dhamma... If one didn't hear the Dhamma, one wouldn't remember the Dhamma..." "But what quality is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma?... " "Lending ear... If one didn't lend ear, one wouldn't hear the Dhamma..." "But what quality is most helpful for lending ear?... " "Growing close... If one didn't grow close, one wouldn't lend ear..." "But what quality is most helpful for growing close?... " "Visiting... If one didn't visit, one wouldn't grow close..." "But what quality is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for visiting." "Conviction is most helpful for visiting, Bharadvaja. If conviction [in a person] didn't arise, one wouldn't visit [that person]. Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting." Ken O 38956 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'yoniso manasikara, to Ken O. Hi Nina, and all N ; Manasikara has different meanings depending on the context. Manasikara denotes two cittas: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, and it is called controller of the sense-door process. And also the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is called controller of the javanas. Then there is manasikara cetasika, attention, which arises with each citta. Ph: The treatment of manasikara in the Suttanta makes it sound as though it were ....more readily ascertainable, if that's the right word. More applicable to help us deal with crude defilements, as I've been reminded lately. (I see when a thought is going in an unwholesome direction, and I think instead of Dhamma - it is not complicated.) This from SN IX11 "From inappropriate attention you're being chewed by your thoughts. Relinquishing what's inappropriate, contemplate appropriately. Keeping your mind in the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues will arrive at joy etc..." and from another sutta (sorry, no reference) "I do not envision any one quality by which unarisen factors for awakening do not arise, and arisen factors for awakening do not go to the culmination of their development like inappropriate attention." I don't think it's necessary to worry if there seems to be a difference between the way things are taught in the Suttanta and in the Abhidhamma. It makes sense that the Abhidhamma interpretation would be more subtle and refined and ephemeral - thus the "abhi!" , thus the role Abhidhamma plays in cultivating the panna that can someday eradicate defilements, helping to cultivate it to a penetrative degree that suttas alone cannot do - or so it seems to this beginner at this point in time! Metta, Phil p.s Thank you also Nina for the feedback in other threads the last couple of days. 38957 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi, TG Enjoying your posts on this thread, especially the emphasis that 'no-control' does not negate effort, as many seem to think it does. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: ... > Hi Joop > > Basically no-control means that the potential actions, thoughts, etc. we > perform are subject to the "conditions" that impact us. The mind can > make > decisions and efforts; but those efforts are dependent upon the totality > of > influences: physical and psychological influences, that make up what we > are. Yes, and at the level of dhammas it means that dhammas are not 'subject to mastery' by anyone. > You can attain anything, including enlightenment, by making an effort as > long > as there are the conditions present to be able to make that effort. > ... > No-control does not mean no-effort. A high quality effort needs to be > made > to achieve a high quality result. The potential supporting conditions > may be > (and probably are) available for you to attain a noble mind. A noble > mind > requires a noble effort ... to find and develop noble influences. Again, at the level of dhammas, effort is a specific mental factor that arises with consciousness. I find it helps to think in terms of factors rather than 'things to do'. The difference is that, as the factor of effort is developed over time kusala becomes more 'effortless' in the conventional sense. > This e-mail is a condition, the computer is a condition, your parents > were > conditions, the air is a condition, the sun is a condition, etc., etc., > etc., > for your mind to do what it will do. All of these things, all > experiences, are > only conditions; there is no "self" to control. Well said! Jon 38958 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: Mahayana Sutras [Christine wrote] > Are there any of the Mahayana collections of Sutras which are > regarded (by the Theravada tradition) as basically agreeing with the > Teachings contained in the Pali Canon? > [Suravira] If the person within the Theravada tradition holds a sectarian view, then the Mahayana (or Varjayana) Sutras are at variance with the Pali canon. The Mahayana sutras are considered to be prajnaparamitta teachings - teachings that point to the absence of intrinsic existence regarding all dhammas (paramattha dhammas as well as pannattis dhammas). As a consequence, the conventional perspective and the absolute perspective are understood to interpenetrate - they are just two perspectives of the same truth. The Theravada tradition's focus on anatta, anicca and dukkha limits its position to the absence of intrinsic existence regarding individual continuity, and (tends) to present the conventional and absolute perspectives as if they were two seperate truths - where the conventional is (typically) debased relative to the absolute. As the transcendent wisdom that knows that the object arising and falling away (moment by moment) is a pannattis dhamma and not a paramattha dhamma, or is a paramattha dhamma and not a pannattis dhamma, the apparent variance between the Theravada tradition and the Mahayana (and Vajrayana) dissolves - as is appropriate as such distinctions are only in our thougths. 38959 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi Guys, My 2 cents worth, the following concepts can be found in sutta: 1. Rupa and consciousness are different phenomena. 2. Rupa and consciousness "touch" when they come together. This is called contact. 3. Body and mind arise before contact. 4. Body is the support of mind. 5. When rupa and consciousness touch consciousness experiences that touch. This experience is also called contact and is the beginning of experience. Any other points of contention? Larry 38960 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 61 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (h) Nina: "What we take for `our memory' or `our recognition' is not one moment which stays, but many different moments of saññå which arise and fall away. Because of saññå past experiences and also concepts and names are remembered, people and things are recognized." Hi Nina and all, This is a good point. Memory is just a moment of memory. The same thing could be said of a sign or concept. These are moments of consciousness. It occured to me this morning that memory hides impermanence. Maybe one of the reasons Ananda took so long to realize nibbana is because he was so involved with memory he didn't pay enough attention to impermanence. Larry 38961 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:26am Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, Ken and TG (and any others who would care to help out) - In a message dated 11/28/04 9:16:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi TG and Howard > > Regarding your questions about eye, base and citta, I hope this help > in your discussion ------------------------------------------- Howard: I find the following difficult to interpret. I will explain in context: > > MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama > "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into > range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of > consciousness. > - - - - - - - H: When is visual form absent? (Even with eyes closed, there is visual form.) It seems to me that there is no seeing only when either one is unconscious or at a moment that another sense-door is functioning. But at that time there is neither visual from nor (activated) eye door nor eye-door consciousness - that is, none of the three. Another question about this: What is meant by the eye being internally intact? Does that refer to the ordinary physical eye organ? If yes, this seems like speech that views the physical eye as a reality, and flies in the face of Abhidhammic (or commentarial) and *my* distinguishing between sammuti and paramattha! (On the other hand, the Buddha may be mixing figurative and literal speech here, where "internally the eye being intact" is a shorthand for a complex statement pertaining to a multitude of actual and potential paramattha dhammas.) - - - - - - - If internally the eye is intact and external forms> > come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] > engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class > of consciousness. > - - - - - - - H: It is my understanding from other suttas that from eye door and eye object comes eye consciousness. In this case, how is the preceding possible. Actually, as I think about it, Ken, one explanation would indeed make your point. That explanation is that eye and forms can exist on their own (in an "external world" of some sort), independent of experience, and their (momentary) existence don't yield eye-door consciousness, because at the moment consciousness is "at" another sense door. This is actually one of the strongest challenges to my phenomenalist perspective that I have encountered. On the other hand, exactly what does it mean for external forms to "come into range"? That sounds like sammuti-vacca that should upset Abhidhammikas here! (Of course, again, the talk of eye being intact and forms being in range could be shorthand for a complex multitude of actualities and potentialities. BTW, I know what I mean when I speak of this, but I would be hard pressed to explain it! ;-) --------------------------------------------- But when internally the eye is intact and external> > forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] > engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding > class of consciousness." > > Ken O > > ========================== This material sure gives much to think about, Ken. Thank you! I would very much like to see some analyses of this matter by folks of various persuasions, including abhidhammikas, phenomenalists (if there are any more here of that strange breed), independent-external-reality believers, and non-distinguishers between sammuti and paramattha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38962 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/28/04 11:11:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > 5. When rupa and consciousness touch consciousness experiences that > touch. This experience is also called contact and is the beginning of > experience. > > ========================= Prior to the contact, what then is the conscious, already existent, conscious *of*? Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing countenanced by the Dhamma? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38963 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:46am Subject: Reformulation (to Larry) Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 11/28/04 11:37:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Prior to the contact, what then is the conscious, already existent, > conscious *of*? Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing > countenanced > by the Dhamma? > ===================== The first use of 'conscious' in the foregoing was supposed to be 'consciousness'. So, what I intended to ask you was the following: "Prior to the contact, what then is the consciousness, already existent, conscious *of*? Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing countenanced by the Dhamma?" With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38964 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: accumulations Dear Larry, et al, [Larry wrote] > Whatever happens > happens in the present. So if something in the past conditions > something in the present you have to show how that happens in the > present. It's no good for satipatthana to simply say it happens this > way. We have to see it. [Suravira] Yes, labling dhamma with a catch phrase is deficient. Yet, to show how 'it happens' is a very challenging undertaking, as nama dhamma and rupa dhamma are distinctly different types of dhamma. Rupa dhammas have both spatial (shape, color, sound, odor, taste, tangibility) and temporal extenstions. Nama dhammas are devoid of spatial extensions and cannot be measured by any physical terms (i.e., nama is formless), yet nama dhammas exist - nama dhamma has temporal extensions - nama dhamma manifests certain abilities as well. And, while nama dhamma has the capacity to experience an object/event, this capacity is lacking within rupa dhamma. In that nama and rupa are distinct within Buddhist Dharma, showing 'how it happens' is extremely different. For example while one could conceivably show the 'how' of both nama and rupa in time, one can only show the 'how' of rupa in space. Addressing this matter further requires explaining the 'what' of space-time, and doing that within the framework of the Dharma is nearly impossible as time is conceived by Buddhist tradition as being completely seperate from and independent of three dimensional space. This 'common sense' view of time and space is no longer held to be credible since the 1905 publication of Einstein's special theory of relativity (in which space and time combine with each other as a four dimensional continuum). My critical intellect raises the hope that there may well be a way of showing 'how' were we to jettison that 'common sense' view from contemporary expressions of the Dharma. However that 'common sense' thought is so deeply embedded in our human experience as to be unquestionable. In that concepts, such as this ancient one of time and space, is merely a pannattis dhamma, Buddhist teachings on the conventional perspective of truth should prove to be easily enhanced to reflect our contemporary confidence in the space-time concept. Until this greater question is resolved the point in space-time where accumulation occurs remains a great mystery worthy of investigation. [Larry wrote] > Here's a possible scenario I came up with this morning. Sanna in all > the resultant consciousnesses in the 5-door process recognizes that > the object is desirable or undesirable and simply because of this > identification desire or aversion arises with pleasant or unpleasant > feeling. [Suravira] As I understand the law of dependent origination, contact (phasso) occurs at step six, sensation/feeling (vedanna) occurs at step seven, craving (tanha) occurs at step eight, and clinging (upadana) occurs at step nine. [Larry wrote] > Repeating this process many times the feeling of desire or > aversion is married to the sense consciousness giving the deluded > impression (nimitta) that sense consciousness arises with pleasant > or unpleasant feeling. [Suravira] As I understand citta, vedanna accompanies every arising and falling away citta. The pleasant, unpleasant or neutral aspect of the object of contact is not an illusional impression. Is not our identification with the arising desire/aversion (where we attribute to this emotion a false sense of I and a false sense of permanence) in aspect delusional? [Larry wrote] > The task of satipatthana is to winkle out the elements of this > marriage and see exactly what is going on. One way to do this is to > look more closely at sense consciousness, see what is really seen, > and notice the feeling that arises with that consciousness. [Suravira] Yes, this is the method. We investigate the conventional perspective of truth and eventually enhance perception (panna) such that a state of insight is reached whereby delusional, or false, views of individuality and permanence abate (for a moment) - the dharma eye opens - stream entry. [Larry wrote] > When > desire arises in a 5-door process there has to be an error somewhere > and satipatthana has to be able to see it in the present. [Suravira] In that citta arise and fall away moment by moment, the moment of delusional citta is not re-cognized when practicing vipassana satipatthana. This practice is about cultivating mental states that are in the moment - not mental states the recall memories of prior moments for critical analysis. [Larry wrote] > Recognizing > an object as desirable isn't necessarily an error but desiring it is. > Is that right??? [Suravira] Perceiving a citta as dukkha is not an error (whenever that citta is not the paramattha dhamma nirvana). If one aspires to realize a state of insight where liberation from false views of individuality and permanence abate, then to identify with desire is counterproductive - when we do that we manifest dukkha not nirvana. [Larry wrote] > Maybe it is just the view accompanying the desire > that is erroneous. [Suravira] As perception automatically accompanies every citta, the error may not lie within the (wisdom) quality of panna. Perhaps the error relates to (moral) quality of intention (cetana)? [Larry wrote] > At any rate, identifying the pleasant feeling of > desire with the sense consciousness is an error. > [Suravira] Identifying with desire would be an error when practicing vipassana satipatthana. But, desire is not an error in all contexts. For example, one may desire an object in contact with a sense organ which is food. With metta, Suravira 38965 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:30am Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken and TG (and any others who would care to help out) - > > In a message dated 11/28/04 9:16:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi TG and Howard > > > > Regarding your questions about eye, base and citta, I hope this help > > in your discussion > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I find the following difficult to interpret. I will explain in > context: > > > > > MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama > > "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into > > range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of > > consciousness. > > > - - - - - - - > H: > When is visual form absent? (Even with eyes closed, there is visual > form.) It seems to me that there is no seeing only when either one is > unconscious or at a moment that another sense-door is functioning. But at that time > there is neither visual from nor (activated) eye door nor eye-door consciousness - > that is, none of the three. > Another question about this: What is meant by the eye being internally > intact? Does that refer to the ordinary physical eye organ? If yes, this > seems like speech that views the physical eye as a reality, and flies in the face > of Abhidhammic (or commentarial) and *my* distinguishing between sammuti and > paramattha! (On the other hand, the Buddha may be mixing figurative and > literal speech here, where "internally the eye being intact" is a shorthand for a > complex statement pertaining to a multitude of actual and potential paramattha > dhammas.) > - - - - - - - > > If internally the eye is intact and external forms> > > come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] > > engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class > > of consciousness. > > > - - - - - - - > H: > It is my understanding from other suttas that from eye door and eye > object comes eye consciousness. In this case, how is the preceding possible. > Actually, as I think about it, Ken, one explanation would indeed make your point. > That explanation is that eye and forms can exist on their own (in an > "external world" of some sort), independent of experience, and their (momentary) > existence don't yield eye-door consciousness, because at the moment consciousness > is "at" another sense door. This is actually one of the strongest challenges to > my phenomenalist perspective that I have encountered. On the other hand, > exactly what does it mean for external forms to "come into range"? That sounds > like sammuti-vacca that should upset Abhidhammikas here! (Of course, again, the > talk of eye being intact and forms being in range could be shorthand for a > complex multitude of actualities and potentialities. BTW, I know what I mean when > I speak of this, but I would be hard pressed to explain it! ;-) > --------------------------------------------- > But when internally the eye is intact and external> > > forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] > > engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding > > class of consciousness." > > > > Ken O > > > > > ========================== > This material sure gives much to think about, Ken. Thank you! I would > very much like to see some analyses of this matter by folks of various > persuasions, including abhidhammikas, phenomenalists (if there are any more here of > that strange breed), independent-external-reality believers, and > non-distinguishers between sammuti and paramattha. ===== I am not sure which of the above categories I fit into, but I will give my 2 cents worth. In my opinion, "internally the eye is intact" refers to eye- sensitivity. Congenitally blind people have eyes but there is no eye- sensitivity, so they cannot see. Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes quote the commentary, " 'Corresponding (conscious) engagement' (tajjo samannaharo) is explained by MA as attention (manasikara) arising in dependence on the eye and forms; it is identified with the 'five-door-adverting consciousness' (pancadvaravajjanacitta), which breaks off the flow of the life continuum (bhavanga) to initiate a process of cognition. Even when forms come into range of the eye, if attention is not engaged by the form because one is occupied with something else, there is still no manifestation of the 'corresponding class of consciousness,' i.e. eye-consciousness." Seems pretty abhidhammic to me :-) This would seem to support my perspective on the Buddha's teachings which is: - The Buddha did not focus on the reality / non reality issue; this ontological focus was a later addition (first introduced in the Kathavatthu but really took hold in the Abhidhammathasangaha) - The Buddha was very, very careful not to talk about things which were outside of the scope of the teaching (see MN58, MN63, SN LVI.31) - External forms, not within the range of eye-sensitivity (i.e. "out there") are outside the scope of the teaching and therefore are not to be discussed or analyzed (including the reality / non reality of these things) - One could "read between the lines" of this Sutta to build a case that these external forms had some sort of reality, but this is clearly not the point of the Sutta. Howard, it is 1:30 in the morning and I really have to get to bed. I have a very full day of work tomorrow - sorry that this message was so short. Metta, Rob M :-) 38966 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, Rob - Short but sweet! :-) Thanks for the following, Rob. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/28/04 12:33:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > I am not sure which of the above categories I fit into, but I will > give my 2 cents worth. > > In my opinion, "internally the eye is intact" refers to eye- > sensitivity. Congenitally blind people have eyes but there is no eye- > sensitivity, so they cannot see. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes quote the commentary, " 'Corresponding > (conscious) engagement' (tajjo samannaharo) is explained by MA as > attention (manasikara) arising in dependence on the eye and forms; > it is identified with the 'five-door-adverting consciousness' > (pancadvaravajjanacitta), which breaks off the flow of the life > continuum (bhavanga) to initiate a process of cognition. Even when > forms come into range of the eye, if attention is not engaged by the > form because one is occupied with something else, there is still no > manifestation of the 'corresponding class of consciousness,' i.e. > eye-consciousness." > > Seems pretty abhidhammic to me :-) > > This would seem to support my perspective on the Buddha's teachings > which is: > - The Buddha did not focus on the reality / non reality issue; this > ontological focus was a later addition (first introduced in the > Kathavatthu but really took hold in the Abhidhammathasangaha) > - The Buddha was very, very careful not to talk about things which > were outside of the scope of the teaching (see MN58, MN63, SN LVI.31) > - External forms, not within the range of eye-sensitivity (i.e. "out > there") are outside the scope of the teaching and therefore are not > to be discussed or analyzed (including the reality / non reality of > these things) > - One could "read between the lines" of this Sutta to build a case > that these external forms had some sort of reality, but this is > clearly not the point of the Sutta. > > Howard, it is 1:30 in the morning and I really have to get to bed. I > have a very full day of work tomorrow - sorry that this message was > so short. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38967 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Dear Howard, [Howard wrote] > Prior to the contact, what then is the conscious, already existent, > conscious *of*? [Suravira] Are you not asking the question what is the beginning of consciousness? To respond we must dig into the idea of 'beginning.' For a beginning to occur it must do so in a present moment - a 'now' must exist within which the beginning occurs - there must be a now that is the beginning. However, how could a now ever conceivably be a beginning when every now is the end of a past? In order for our three common sense ideas of time to be valid, every beginning must originate from a preceding moment - every beginning must have a beginning itselft. Therefore, either the idea 'beginning' is invalid and meaningless, or our three ideas of time are invalid and meaningless. Buddhism takes the position that our ideas of time are valid and meaningful, and the idea 'beginning' is invalid and meaningless. Hence the use of the terms 'beginningless' and 'beginninglessness' in Buddhist discourses and commentaries to indicate that the idea 'beginning' is invalid and meaningless. The nature of nama-vinnana is beginningless. And if one considers a beginningless cycle of big-bang:expansion:collapse:big-bang then perhaps the nature of rupa is beginningless as well. [Howard wrote] > Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing countenanced > by the Dhamma? > [Suravira] Just like all dhamma, each moment of consciousness (citta) is impermanent – it arises, persists for an instant and then ceases. In between moments in which consciousness (coupled to a sense impression or to a concept) exists, moments of consciousness (bhavanga-citta) uncoupled to sense impressions or to concepts (i.e., imaginary objects) arise, persist for an instant and then cease. Without an object coupled to a given citta, such an instance of citta (a bhavanga-citta) is not experienced as nama-vinnana. While this may seem to be incredible, just consider those moments in which you are in a deep dreamless sleep and are not conscious of any thing. With metta, Suravira 38968 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Hi Ken and Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken O" To: Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 6:12 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? > Everytime there arise a wise attention, there would be volition so > need to worry about choice :). This is nicely put I think, Ken--of course, volition is also always present with unwise attention :(--still no need to worry about choice. Since the Atthasaalini identifys wise/unwise attention as the proximate cause of kusala/akusala, it does suggest to me the importance of distinguishing one from the other. The study of the concepts of the Dhamma is indispensible for this, I think. mike 38969 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, Suravira - In a message dated 11/28/04 12:48:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, suravira@d... writes: > Dear Howard, > > [Howard wrote] > > Prior to the contact, what then is the conscious, already > existent, > >conscious *of*? > > [Suravira] Are you not asking the question what is the beginning of > consciousness? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm questioning the existence of a consciousness prior to contact. Prior to contact, such "consciousness" would be a consciousness without object, a consciousness that isn't conscious *of* anything. That smacks of a form of eternalism, turning "consciousness" into a continually existing knowing agent that can make contact from time to time. This takes us back to pre-Buddhist thought. ----------------------------------------- To respond we must dig into the idea of 'beginning.' > > For a beginning to occur it must do so in a present moment - a 'now' > must exist within which the beginning occurs - there must be a now > that is the beginning. However, how could a now ever conceivably be > a beginning when every now is the end of a past? In order for our > three common sense ideas of time to be valid, every beginning must > originate from a preceding moment - every beginning must have a > beginning itselft. Therefore, either the idea 'beginning' is invalid > and meaningless, or our three ideas of time are invalid and > meaningless. Buddhism takes the position that our ideas of time are > valid and meaningful, and the idea 'beginning' is invalid and > meaningless. Hence the use of the terms 'beginningless' > and 'beginninglessness' in Buddhist discourses and commentaries to > indicate that the idea 'beginning' is invalid and meaningless. > > The nature of nama-vinnana is beginningless. And if one considers a > beginningless cycle of big-bang:expansion:collapse:big-bang then > perhaps the nature of rupa is beginningless as well. > > [Howard wrote] > >Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing countenanced > >by the Dhamma? > > > > [Suravira] Just like all dhamma, each moment of consciousness > (citta) is impermanent – it arises, persists for an instant and then > ceases. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. True, but I don't see the relevance. ------------------------------------------- In between moments in which consciousness (coupled to a > > sense impression or to a concept) exists, moments of consciousness > (bhavanga-citta) uncoupled to sense impressions or to concepts > (i.e., imaginary objects) arise, persist for an instant and then > cease. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think that is so. Even the strictly commentarial notion of bhavanga citta involves an object. ------------------------------------------ Without an object coupled to a given citta, such an instance > > of citta (a bhavanga-citta) is not experienced as nama-vinnana. > While this may seem to be incredible, just consider those moments in > which you are in a deep dreamless sleep and are not conscious of any > thing. > > With metta, > Suravira > ========================== Though we don't agree on this matter, Suravira, I appreciate your replying, and I thank you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38970 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: accumulations [Suravira] "Identifying with desire would be an error when practicing vipassana satipatthana. But, desire is not an error in all contexts. For example, one may desire an object in contact with a sense organ which is food." Hi Suravira, Nice to meet you. I particularly liked your post on mahayana sutras. It would be a little complicated to respond to all your points in this thread so let's just take the one above since that is central to the whole thing. In abhidhamma all 5 sense consciousnesses except body consciousness arise only with neutral feeling at all times. So how can I tell when I sit down to eat why I like this stuff? Obviously pleasant feeling does arise, I like that feeling, and I want more. What's going on here? What consciousness does that pleasant feeling accompany? That is the question. Larry ps: In abhidhamma feeling always arises with a consciousness. 38971 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:04am Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Dear Howard, et al [Howard wrote] > Another question about this: What is meant by the eye being internally > intact? Does that refer to the ordinary physical eye organ? If yes, this > seems like speech that views the physical eye as a reality, and flies in the face > of Abhidhammic (or commentarial) and *my* distinguishing between sammuti and > paramattha! > (On the other hand, the Buddha may be mixing figurative and > literal speech here, where "internally the eye being intact" is a shorthand for a > complex statement pertaining to a multitude of actual and potential paramattha > dhammas.) [Suravira] As you know, the Buddhist doctrine addresses two perspectives of truth: the conventional perspective and the absolute perspective. Taken together these perspectives are often called 'the Two Truths.' As there exists but one truth, this phrase refers to two perspectives of truth - it is not about dividing truth in two. When learning about the absolute, and the conventional, perspectives of truth, one may encounter presentations that use the term 'absolute reality' and 'conventional reality' (as one finds in Nina's translation of Sojin Boriharnwanaket's essay). This use of the word 'reality' is regrettable, as the word 'reality,' for western students, encumbers this teaching with a metaphysical context - an a priori underlying nature, nomena, substance, essense, or entity - an imaginary transcendental substrata outside the natural context of daily life. This displacement is contrary to Buddhism as doing so divorces this teaching from any conceivable application that eliminates dukkha. In the some translations of commentaries and discourses, this 'absolute reality' is even promoted as 'the truth,' and the 'conventional reality' is addressed as if it were debased relative to an 'absolute reality.' Each paramattha dhamma (citta, cetaseka, rupa, nirvana) has its own characteristic - has its own nature. As we refine perception (panna) through the bodhisattva discipline of meditation, our awareness of the nature of paramattha dhammas, as they arise and fall away, becomes enhanced. Gradually, our perception is sufficiently enhanced and we reach a state of insight where delusional, or false, views of individuality, and of permanence, abate for a moment. That moment is called stream entry, or openning the dharma eye. Within that state of insight abides the absolute perspective of truth. When outside that state of insight we abide within a different mode of consciousness - the conventional perspective of truth. When in the conventional perspective, mental consciousness processes sensations, feelings, thoughts, emotions, memories, and dreams and thereby projects a subject-object duality that we identify with - that we grasp and cling to. Within that subject-object duality, perception marks sensed objects, giving them a 'name' - assigns them a word, or phrase from our native language. Mental consciousness then experiences the 'meaning' of the object - which is a concept, a thought (pannattis dhamma). Within the conventional perspective what is experienced by mental consciousness is a concept - not a paramattha dhamma (as you well point out). However, without our native language, which both facilitates and expresses the conventional perspective, the Dharma of the absolute perspective could not be communicated to another or to others. This fact of life was thoroughly demonstrated by the Buddha in that he contiunually used the conventional perspective whenever giving teachings (even about the absolute perspective). It is this 'whole' (Sujin Boriharnwanaket's term as translated by Nina), this conventional perspective of truth, which obscures the absolute perspective of citta, cetaseka, rupa and nirvana. Neverthelesss, the conventional and the absolute are NOT seperate. Therefore, as a practical necessity, it is within the conventional perspective that we undertake the refinement of perception so that we are capable of realizing the nature of paramattha dhammas. Altogether, our daily life is the paramattha dhammas and the paramattha dhammas is our daily life - as unenligthened people our perspective, intention and understanding are not rooted in this truth - in nirvana. When one appreciates this relation between the 'whole' and the paramattha dhammas, you recognize that the absolute and the conventional are intimately connected - they are not two truths. The subject and object are altogether one. You come to understand that the 'whole' and nirvana, while different in function, are not seperate - they interpenetrate. Realizing the absolute perspective of truth would be impossible without the support of the conventional perspective of truth within daily life. As Zen master Sekito Kisen taught: 'The conventional fits the absolute as a box and its lid' Our daily life forms upon the paramattha dhammas - forms upon nirvana. This enlightened existence is not something that you add to yourself, nor is it something outside the 'whole' of our daily life. Such distinctions are only in our thoughts. Before I end this response let me clearly state that I have a deep sense of indebtedness to and gratitude for the translations that Nina has contributed to the spread of Dharma within English speaking communities. Her writings have proven to be a great help to me. Yet, in my opinion, it is unfortunate that the English translation of Sujin's essay uses the word 'reality' instead of the word 'prespective' which does not carry the same existential baggage within Judeo-Christians cultures - e.g., the God is outside and seperate from his creation; the God is the absolute/ultimate reality and daily life is show how debased relative to the creator deity. With metta, Suravira 38972 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:29:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: Without activated visual faculty (eye) and visual form there is no visual consciousness. That is what is being put forward. That is the particular conditionality being addressed. I don't see that as implying that activated visual faculty or presence of visual form can exist without visual consciouness also existing. That is, I don't see this conditionality as a temporal one. Hi Howard That's not what I or the Sutta said. I said "eye and form" not 'visual faculty or visual form.' This Sutta is providing more detail than the normal description of contact being the meeting of the three. This Sutta still mentions the meeting of the three, because that is what contact is. But prior to the meeting of the three, this Sutta further defines a "dyad" of eye and form that are supports for consciousness. And as these supports totter and change, so too, consciousness which is dependent upon them must also totter and change. This passage really shows consciousness' structural dependence on what the dyad does! I can use an analogy of a light bulb to show how I view consciousness... I see the 'eye' as like the light bulb. I see 'form' like electricity or energy. I see 'consciousness' as like light (also energy of course. The bulb also energy.) A light bulb is only truly a light bulb (doing lighting) when lit, I understand that. However, electricity and the bulb still exist when the bulb isn't lit. When "contact" of a switch is made there is Contact between electricity, bulb filament, and generated electromagnetic energy, light. All three simultaneously fulfill the function of producing light. The stronger the contact (more electricity, larger filament, etc.) , the stronger the light. The weaker the contact, the weaker the light. When there is no contact, there is no light...but the bulb and electricity remain poised for future contact. Just as eye and forms remain poised for future contact. There is no point in the Buddha mentioning a 'dyad' that supports consciousness if that's not what the Buddha meant. He would simply state that all three depend on each other. Or, he would have extended the Sutta to state that consciousness and eye are a dyad that form depends on, and that form and consciousness are a dyad that eye depends on. But he did not. I think the Sutta has made my case (or I've made the Suttas case) and I've used the Suttas to back up my viewpoint (or the Suttas have formed my viewpoint.) TG 38973 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 11/28/04 11:11:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... writes: > > > 5. When rupa and consciousness touch consciousness experiences that > > touch. This experience is also called contact and is the beginning of > > experience. > > > > > ========================= > Prior to the contact, what then is the conscious, already existent, > conscious *of*? Is it an objectless consciousness? Is such a thing countenanced > by the Dhamma? > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I don't think I said an objectless consciousness exists at any time but the mind sense base arises in dependent arising before there is contact with rupa, presumably. I would take this contact to be the beginning of present experience in the dependent arising formula. As far as I know sutta doesn't go into a lot more detail. Larry 38974 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:29:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: I see the meeting as a co-arising. Where are they "hanging out" before meeting? In particular, where is the consciousness "hanging out" prior to contact. If it exists prior to contact, at that time what is it a consciousness of? (See what I mean?) Hi Howard Consciousness is generated by conditions. It is not hanging out. (See light bulb analogy in previous post.) TG 38975 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:29:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: Pleasant feeling resulting from soothing warmth is supported by and bound up with the rupa of the great element of fire. Nonetheless, that pleasant feeling is vedana, a type of nama. In any case, phassa is always understood belong to the sankharakkhanda, which makes it nama. Certainly it isn't rupa, is it? What is left besides rupas Just vedana, sankhara, sa~n~na and vi~n~nana, all nama. Hi Howard Re: the below line... Howard: In any case, phassa is always understood belong to the sankharakkhanda, which makes it nama. TG: There is a mental contact, does that mean there isn't a physical contact? I would like the Sutta reference that shows 'contact' is a sankharakhanda much less exclusively a sankharakhanda. Now you wouldn't be using Abhidhamma for support would you? ;-) 1) Form is dependent on the Four Great Elements 2) Feeling is dependent on "Contact" 3) Perception is dependent on "Contact" 4) Mental Formations are dependent on "Contact" 5) Consciousness is dependent on "Name and Form" I don't need to provide the Sutta reference because I know you know this as well as I do. This is all throughout the Suttas. Consciousness is dependent on Name and FORM. What owes its occurrence (existence) to form, cannot be exclusively mental in my view. TG 38976 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Dear Howard, [Howard wrote] > I'm questioning the existence of a > consciousness prior to contact. Prior to contact, such "consciousness" would be a > consciousness without object, a consciousness that isn't conscious *of* > anything. That smacks of a form of eternalism, turning "consciousness" into a > continually existing knowing agent that can make contact from time to time. This > takes us back to pre-Buddhist thought. [Suravira] In that a moment of consciousness arises, a knowing agent is not implied - this is merely some 'thing' we habitually assume to be extant. Consider a continuity of individuality (bhavanga), devoid of an intrinsic entity (anatta) - even one that continually exists (annica). Consciousness is one of those loaded words. Try substituting 'awareness' - awareness that is non-localized in space- time. This is not too great a leap when one appreciates the nature of nama as lacking (the) physical properties (of rupa). > ----------------------------------------- > > The nature of nama-vinnana is beginningless. And if one considers a > > beginningless cycle of big-bang:expansion:collapse:big-bang then > > perhaps the nature of rupa is beginningless as well. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. True, but I don't see the relevance. > ------------------------------------------- [Suravira] When the notion of beginninglessness soaks in, the question of '... the existence of a consciousness prior to contact ...' falls away of its own accord. If you understand nama dhammas as having temporal extension, and appreciate that the nature of nama dhammas is beginningless, then why be concerned with the existence of nama dhammas 'prior to' any other dhamma? I can appreciate that this point appears to defy common sense, but it is logical. The tough part is seeing, within one continuity of individuality, how nama (which has no physical properties therefore not spatial extension - just temporal extension and processing/functioning capacities) relates to rupa (which has both spatial and temporal extensions) - without violating the Dharma of anatta or annica. That's a real tuff nut to crack! > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I don't think that is so. Even the strictly commentarial notion of > bhavanga citta involves an object. > ------------------------------------------ [Suravira] Go back and read the Vissuddhimagga. It makes a breaf mention of bhavanga-cittas that do not have an object associated with them. I will dig up the chapter-verse reference for you if you like. I remember being surprised when I came across this as well. But it makes good sense when you consider all the varieties of mental states that arise and pass away. In contemporary psychology, such mental states are labled 'unconscious'. With metta, Suravira 38977 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/28/04 2:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:29:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Howard: > Without activated visual faculty (eye) and visual form there is no > visual consciousness. That is what is being put forward. That is the > particular > conditionality being addressed. I don't see that as implying that activated > visual faculty or presence of visual form can exist without visual > consciouness > also existing. That is, I don't see this conditionality as a temporal one. > Hi Howard > > That's not what I or the Sutta said. I said "eye and form" not 'visual > faculty or visual form.' This Sutta is providing more detail than the > normal > description of contact being the meeting of the three. This Sutta still > mentions > the meeting of the three, because that is what contact is. But prior to the > > meeting of the three, this Sutta further defines a "dyad" of eye and form > that > are supports for consciousness. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't ingerpret it as prior. ---------------------------------------- And as these supports totter and change, so > > too, consciousness which is dependent upon them must also totter and change. > > This passage really shows consciousness' structural dependence on what the > dyad > does! > > I can use an analogy of a light bulb to show how I view consciousness... I > see the 'eye' as like the light bulb. I see 'form' like electricity or > energy. > I see 'consciousness' as like light (also energy of course. The bulb also > energy.) A light bulb is only truly a light bulb (doing lighting) when lit, > I > understand that. However, electricity and the bulb still exist when the > bulb > isn't lit. When "contact" of a switch is made there is Contact between > electricity, bulb filament, and generated electromagnetic energy, light. > All three > simultaneously fulfill the function of producing light. The stronger the > contact (more electricity, larger filament, etc.) , the stronger the light. > The > weaker the contact, the weaker the light. When there is no contact, there > is > no light...but the bulb and electricity remain poised for future contact. > Just > as eye and forms remain poised for future contact. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see it this. To see it this way implies consciousness without object. The Buddha is simply emphasizing the (atemporal) dependence of visual consciousness on eye and form. As an analogy: In most presentations of dependent orgination, there is mentioned the dependence of namarupa on consciousness. But in at least one presentation, the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta, the interdependence of vi~n~nana and namarupa is expressed. Different aspects of reality are expressed at various times and in various contexts. ------------------------------------------ > > There is no point in the Buddha mentioning a 'dyad' that supports > consciousness if that's not what the Buddha meant. He would simply state > that all three > depend on each other. Or, he would have extended the Sutta to state that > consciousness and eye are a dyad that form depends on, and that form and > consciousness are a dyad that eye depends on. But he did not. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Not necessarily. Please see my comments above. -------------------------------------- > > I think the Sutta has made my case (or I've made the Suttas case) and I've > used the Suttas to back up my viewpoint (or the Suttas have formed my > viewpoint.) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay! ;-) --------------------------------------- > > TG > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38978 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG In a message dated 11/28/2004 6:16:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: Hi TG and Howard Regarding your questions about eye, base and citta, I hope this help in your discussion MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness." Ken O Ken I love you LOL This Sutta better than any I posted proves that the Buddha talked about eye and form as pre-existing condition that structure consciousness when when the appropriate conditions meet. This Sutta is a model of the way I think about consciousness and almost identical to my "light bulb" analogy. Thanks for posting it. TG 38979 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/28/04 2:35:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:29:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Howard: > Pleasant feeling resulting from soothing warmth is supported by and > bound up with the rupa of the great element of fire. Nonetheless, that > pleasant > feeling is vedana, a type of nama. In any case, phassa is always understood > belong to the sankharakkhanda, which makes it nama. Certainly it isn't > rupa, > is > it? What is left besides rupas Just vedana, sankhara, sa~n~na and vi~n~nana, > > all nama. > Hi Howard > > Re: the below line... > > Howard: In any case, phassa is always understood > belong to the sankharakkhanda, which makes it nama. > > TG: There is a mental contact, does that mean there isn't a physical > contact? > > I would like the Sutta reference that shows 'contact' is a sankharakhanda > much less exclusively a sankharakhanda. Now you wouldn't be using > Abhidhamma for > support would you? ;-) > > 1) Form is dependent on the Four Great Elements > 2) Feeling is dependent on "Contact" > 3) Perception is dependent on "Contact" > 4) Mental Formations are dependent on "Contact" > 5) Consciousness is dependent on "Name and Form" > > I don't need to provide the Sutta reference because I know you know this as > well as I do. This is all throughout the Suttas. Consciousness is > dependent > on Name and FORM. > What owes its occurrence (existence) to form, cannot be exclusively mental > in > my view. > > TG > ======================== Sorry, I just don't follow you. Consciousness dependent on form [not all consciousness is 5-sense-door consciousness] is still not rupa. Are you claiming, for example, that visual consciousness is a species of rupa? Certainly visual object is rupa. Are you claiming that visual consciousness also is? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38980 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, Suravira - In a message dated 11/28/04 2:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, suravira@d... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > [Howard wrote] > > >I'm questioning the existence of a > >consciousness prior to contact. Prior to contact, > such "consciousness" would be a > >consciousness without object, a consciousness that isn't conscious > *of* > >anything. That smacks of a form of eternalism, > turning "consciousness" into a > >continually existing knowing agent that can make contact from time > to time. This > >takes us back to pre-Buddhist thought. > > [Suravira] In that a moment of consciousness arises, a knowing agent > is not implied - this is merely some 'thing' we habitually assume to > be extant. Consider a continuity of individuality (bhavanga), devoid > of an intrinsic entity (anatta) - even one that continually exists > (annica). > --------------------------------------- Howard: Still you are talking of a consciousness that is an awareness of no object, a consciousness without content, and that always exists, but from time to time knows an object. That, to me, is an eternalistic notion. -------------------------------------- > > Consciousness is one of those loaded words. Try > substituting 'awareness' - awareness that is non-localized in space- > time. This is not too great a leap when one appreciates the nature > of nama as lacking (the) physical properties (of rupa). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: From my perspective that doesn't help at all. In fact the notion of an "awareness that is non-localized in space-time" is mighty close to the Vedantic notion of atman or brahman. ---------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------- > >>The nature of nama-vinnana is beginningless. And if one > considers a > >>beginningless cycle of big-bang:expansion:collapse:big-bang then > >>perhaps the nature of rupa is beginningless as well. > >> > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Okay. True, but I don't see the relevance. > >------------------------------------------- > > [Suravira] When the notion of beginninglessness soaks in, the > question of '... the existence of a consciousness prior to > contact ...' falls away of its own accord. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: No first beginning should not imply eternalism, but it will if consciousness is considered to be saome self-same, comtinuous entity. That sounds much like Sati's error. -------------------------------------------- > > If you understand nama dhammas as having temporal extension, and > appreciate that the nature of nama dhammas is beginningless, then > why be concerned with the existence of nama dhammas 'prior to' any > other dhamma? ------------------------------------------ Howard: My point was simple: Existent consciousness without contact is consciousness without object. That is not what was taught by the Buddha as I understand the Dhamma. Nor has it ever been my experience. ------------------------------------------- > > I can appreciate that this point appears to defy common sense, but > it is logical. > > The tough part is seeing, within one continuity of individuality, > how nama (which has no physical properties therefore not spatial > extension - just temporal extension and processing/functioning > capacities) relates to rupa (which has both spatial and temporal > extensions) - without violating the Dharma of anatta or annica. > That's a real tuff nut to crack! > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No, I don't think that is so. Even the strictly > commentarial notion of > >bhavanga citta involves an object. > >------------------------------------------ > > [Suravira] Go back and read the Vissuddhimagga. It makes a breaf > mention of bhavanga-cittas that do not have an object associated > with them. I will dig up the chapter-verse reference for you if you > like. I remember being surprised when I came across this as well. > But it makes good sense when you consider all the varieties of > mental states that arise and pass away. In contemporary psychology, > such mental states are labled 'unconscious'. > > With metta, > Suravira > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38981 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, op 27-11-2004 23:45 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: Quotes N: But what is >> the most urgent for me at this very moment? That is the question. J: You mean this very moment? You mean this very, very moment? Oops… > you mean that moment that just went past? N: Thanks for reminding me of imermanence! j: This question isn't what can you > do at this very moment…that is an impossible question to answer, as > I just illustrated. The question is what can you do with your > life? With your life you can follow the Noble Eightfold Path. N: I fully agree! Understanding has to be developed, not of the dhamma appearing yesterday, but appearing now. It has just fallen away, agreed, but its characteristic can be known. Suppose you are angry, and there is wise attention to anger. The mind with wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, how could they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger has fallen away. Nina. 38982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? Dear Joop, Thank you for bringing up this point, it is useful to discuss, even though this was discussed many times on dsg! op 27-11-2004 12:25 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > Phil states "K Sujin's "no control" philosophy rather than Abhidhamma > is true". That makes me think some here are talking about a unknown > dhammic revolution. But I can'nt find these words in the texts of > Sujin I have on my harddisk. > Nina in a mail to Naresh: "No permanent creator, no controller of our > lives", when she only means God doesn't exist (my words) then that is > no problem to me. Or is there a connection with the no-control-theme ? N: The crux is: no self who controls. But understanding can understand the right conditions and so understanding itself (no you or me) can condition the arising of kusala. This is in the Vinaya, Sutta and Abhidhamma, this is what Kh. Sujin explains. Control, effort. We have a problem here so long as we have not reached stages of insight by which the wrong view of self is worn away, until we are sotapannas and it is eradicated. The four right efforts are factors of enlightenment, but they develop because of their own conditions, together with pañña. When kusala citta with right understanding arises there is right effort already, by conditions, and no need to think of control or effort. When we are thinking of control or effort, wrong view of self is bound to arise, even though we know in theory that effort is a conditioned nama. We do not detect this easily, we need the right friend in Dhamma to remind us. We read in the Co. to the Cariyapitaka (translated by B.B., about the perfections, p. 279): As soon as we think of effort, we, unknowingly, cling to the idea of my effort. We do not like to admit this, but I am very grateful to Kh. Sujin to point this out to us all the time. She helps us to begin to develop right understanding of seeing, visible object and all dhammas that appear now. For us beginners, we should have foremost in mind the development of understanding, and it were better for us not to think of effort. When one has become an ariyan the enlightenment factors, including pañña and the four right efforts, have become stronger and there is no idea of self. Effort should be applied, effort and perseverance to reach higher stages of enlightenment. But effort is always accompanying pañña. It is an immense effort to become an arahat, but there is no danger that it is taken for my effort. Effort has become very strong because of the right conditions. We think so much about kusala we have to perform, understanding that has to be developed. It is better not to think all the time, but just do, let it come because of the right condiitons. Nina. 38983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Dear Joop and Christine, op 27-11-2004 23:16 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > According to the back Index, Latent Disposition is mentioned in 'A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' at ch. VIII 9, 14. Perhaps > some of the Abhidhammikas would be kind enough to comment further > here. N: These are also mentioned in the suttas, and elaborated upon in the Path of Discrimination (part of Suttanta) and in Abh and Commentaries. O.K. Here is what I wrote before: Nina. 38984 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 60 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (g) Dear Htoo, Yes, this illustrates the power of sañña. A French author Proust wrote about similar experiences. Tasting a special cookie and memories of early childhood came back so vividly. Nina. op 27-11-2004 21:08 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > 6 months ago, I got a strange smell. As soon as I smelled that smell > I remembered the whole lot of an event 30 years ago. I had not > thought that for more than 20 years. I think this is because of sanna. 38985 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations, decisive support Hi Larry, op 27-11-2004 21:26 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > For me, "accumulations" or "decisive support condition" is a very > unsatisfactory answer to the question why does desire arise in a 5- > door process unless you can show the presence of an accumulation or > decisive support conditionER in the 5-door process. N: We have latent tendencies, these are like microbes investing the body. You cannot notice them, they are latent, dormant in each citta; only when akusala citta arises we know that we have them. See my post to Joop. L:(snipped) Repeating this process many times the feeling of desire or > aversion is married to the sense consciousness giving the deluded > impression (nimitta) that sense consciousness arises with pleasant or > unpleasant feeling. N: Right. L:It is this feeling that conditions subsequent, > more kammically active, desire. This desire leads to clinging, > becoming, and so on, and conforms in this way to the dependent > arising formula. N: I think the latent tendency of desire above all is the condition. L: The task of satipatthana is to winkle out the elements of this > marriage and see exactly what is going on. One way to do this is to > look more closely at sense consciousness, see what is really seen, > and notice the feeling that arises with that consciousness. N: Sati of satipatthana is aware of whatever appears. We cannot tell beforehand that it must be aware also of feeling. Beware of an idea of self looking closely or having to know every reality. Sati arises and operates according to its own conditions. Before we know it, we cling to an idea of self. Most counteractive! L:When > desire arises in a 5-door process there has to be an error somewhere > and satipatthana has to be able to see it in the present. Recognizing > an object as desirable isn't necessarily an error but desiring it is. > Is that right??? N: Right, and also desire itself is an object sati can be aware of. It is real, and pañña has to understand it. We should remember that sati cannot be directed to a specific object and that also sati is not self. (snipped) > L: I'm ready to concede that tadarammana isn't a memory machine and is > only the smacking of the lips at the end of a desirable sensual > experience or an "ugh" at the end of an undesirable sensual > experience. N: Very lively description :-)) But retention is not a reaction of approval or disapproval, it is passive, only vipaka, not active like the javanas. L:So I guess that leaves sanna cetasika with the burden of > supporting all memory functions. In an eye-door process with > desirable object when desire arises in javana what feeling arises > with tadarammana? N: See Connie's post. Complicated subject. It depends on the feeling accompanying the javanas and also on the feeling you were born with. I don't want to burn my fingers! Nina. 38986 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga disturbed Hi Larry, op 27-11-2004 22:10 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > L: The "other grain of sugar" or the fly is what I am calling an > internal rupa. How does there come to be disturbance of the life- > continuum that has a different support? N: I am glad you ask, people may stumble over this. It is only a simile that illustrates, but people may go along with it too far. A sense-door is impinged on by an object which is rupa, and although the sense-door processes of cittas has not begun yet, still, this impingement has some effect on the bhavanga-citta, although this citta cannot experience that sense object at all, it experiences its own object (same as rebirth-consciousness). The fly that moves illustrates that it is somehow influenced by the impingement, like the bhavanga-citta, but not directly, only indirectly. L: Clearly consciousness never > leaves the mind-door (bhavanga). N: The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta before a mind-door process begins. Mind-door, a door, is the means for citta to experience an object. Door in the figurative sense. Thus, it is better not to say: consciousness never leaves the mind-door. L:So in order to impinge on consciousness sense-door impingement has to enter the mind-door somehow. N: See above. L:I assume "different support" means different sense-base. > This suggests 2 rupas to me, internal and external, and explains a > little how defective organs impinge on consciousness with erroneous > data. How do you see it? N: Bhavanga-citta has its own object, it cannot experience two objects. It takes its own course, has nothing to do with process cittas. It is just a simile. > snip> >> L:Contact cetasika arises with every consciousness >>> marking the moment of impingement before or as cognition begins (I >>> think). This probably isn't quite right. Maybe Nina or Htoo could >>> correct. >> N: Contact is not marking, it just contacts the object so that > citta can experience it. > L: This was just a figure of speech. The sutta reference I gave about > the flayed cow suggests to me that contact is preliminary > consciousness. N: Contact is cetasika, it is a universal arising with every citta. L: One thing that is hard to understand, how can there be consciousness > of rupa that is not sense consciousness? N: Rupa, such as visible object can be experienced by cittas arising in the eye-door process and by cittas arising in the subsequent mind-door process. L:I have a habit of thinking > of the object of 5-door process as sense consciousness but it isn't. > The object is rupa. Sense consciousness can only be an object in mind- > door process. I prefer sense-cognition for seeing, hearing, etc. The object of sense-cognition is rupa. Nina. 38987 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Naresh, op 27-11-2004 19:06 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > If all things were going without our awarness then how > are those people who are extremely sucessful in their > work & respective proffesional and they can really > concentrate & achive things which are impossible for > any common person.And this also includes super > spiritual power. Nina: Successful in work, yes. Successful in worldly matters. This does not mean success in morality, in wisdom. The Buddha taught another kind of awareness and understanding that goes much deeper and that can lead to less vices and eventually to the eradication of all defilements. Naresh: Isnt there some source within us from where we can > take our lives where we want to ? Nina: That source is understanding of ourselves and the world around us. This understanding is first like a bud that you can hardly see. But gradually, in the course of many lives it can develop to full bloom. Naresh: My confusion still lies why we cant change things if > we know this is not accordingly going or wrong. Nina: as said before: we can learn here the truth of non-self. Impossible to change your life whenever you want to. Without developing the right conditions we shall go wrong all the time. Ignorance is a great danger. Naresh: And along with mind there is Brain also. > Everybody has a brain and one can use it to extreme as > per some knowldege we use as little as 10-15 % of > brain. Nina: Citta, mind changes each split second. What we call brain is actually physical, part of the body. People also use this word for intelligence. Intelligence in worldly sense does not mean much. It is not the same as the wisdom or understanding the Buddha taught. Naresh: Is there any description about Supreme power in Pali > and yes gods like brahma are subject to death. > but above them there is a supreme power where ther is > no life & death. Nina: no supreme power in Buddhism. Even nibbana which is experienced at the moment of enlightenment is impersonal, non-self. It is also called the deathless, because nibbana means the end of rebirth, and when there is no more rebirth there is the end of death. Nibbana is not a supreme power. You have to develop wisdom until nibbana can be experienced. Nina. 38988 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Re: accumulations / Larry > Nice to meet you. [Suravira] Likewise! [Larry wrote] > In abhidhamma all 5 sense consciousnesses except > body consciousness arise only with neutral feeling at all times. So [Suravira] Consciousness (vinnana-khandha) is broken into 5 sense consciousness and 1 mental consciousness (nama-vinnana). Nama is further deconstructed into a moment of consciousness (citta) and (at minimum) seven mental factors (cetasikas): sensation/feeling (vedana) (which is sub-divided by the six sense organs through which it originates), perception (sanna), intention (cetana), contact (phasso), one-pointedness (ekaggata), mental life faculty (jivit- indriya) and attention (manasikara). > how can I tell when I sit down to eat why I like this stuff? [Suravira] This choice is a function of the cetasikas - one human's meat is another human's poison. > Obviously pleasant feeling does arise, I like that feeling, and I > want more. What's going on here? [Suravira] Dukkha is what is going on here. > What consciousness does that > pleasant feeling accompany? [Suravira] That pleasant feeling could accompany wholesome and unwholesome citta - but not nirvana (a paramatta dhamma in which subject-object duality is transcended - trance-ended). > That is the question. > With metta, Suravira 38989 From: connieparker Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: What means 'no control' ? Hi Joop, Christine, All, "[...]According to the back Index, Latent Disposition is mentioned in 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' at ch. VIII 9, 14. " This must be a misprint in the book... see CMA VII 9 & 14 instead. peace, connie 38990 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. > Understanding has to be developed, not of the dhamma appearing yesterday, > but appearing now. It has just fallen away, agreed, but its characteristic > can be known. > Suppose you are angry, and there is wise attention to anger. The mind with > wise attention cannot arise at the same time as the angry mind, how could > they occur together. But wise attention can arise just after anger has > fallen away. Yes, I think this is the way it must be if we accept that delusion and understanding can't arise at the same moment--otherwise no hope of understanding the characteristics of akusala. I've wondered if this is why the word 'sati' is used for mindfulness--a somewhat odd usage as its literal meaning is 'memory' as I recall. One minor detail, though--I think I remember reading that a kusala citta can't arise immediately after an akusala citta, because of the extreme difference between them--but that a single moment of citta taking another object must occur in between. Does this sound familiar? The important point to me remains, though, that sati actually (at least sometimes) is not exactly present, but can take an object very recently arisen at a sense-door or the mind-door. I suppose that sa~n~naa plays a part in this? mike 38991 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies. > Latent tendencies are > accumulated in each citta, from birth to death. They are accumulated even > in > kusala citta. Could you please clarify this--are akusala tendencies accumulated even in kusala citta? Thanks, mike 38992 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: What means 'no control' ? Hello Connie, Joop and all, Thank you so much for this Connie! I read the misprint (have checked it again and it definitely says VIII !). Trying to find Latent Dispositions in ch. VIII almost had me deciding that, rather than slowly slowly gaining a little more understanding of the Abhidhamma, I was rapidly going backwards. What a relief - So, Joop, if you have CMA - it is on p. 268 and 271. If you don't, try 'anusaya' in the Immoral Categories in Chapter 7 of ABHIDHAMMATTHA - SANGAHA of Anuruddhácariya A manual of ABHIDHAMMA Edited in the original Pali Text with English Translation and Explanatory Notes by Nárada Thera, Vájiráráma, Colombo http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_7.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > > Hi Joop, Christine, All, > > "[...]According to the back Index, Latent Disposition is mentioned in 'A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' at ch. VIII 9, 14. " > > This must be a misprint in the book... see CMA VII 9 & 14 instead. > > peace, > connie 38993 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What means 'no control' ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Joop, > Thank you for bringing up this point, it is useful to discuss, even though > this was discussed many times on dsg! Thanks Nina. I knew the term 'no-control' was discussed many times in dsg but I skipped them, simply didn't know where people were talking about. But Andrew brought it up again in my discussion point about the differences between animals and human beings, that's why I asked it: "Andrew: I would have thought that, for no-controllers, humans and animals are pretty much in the same boat in having no control over mind." Nina: no self who controls. But understanding can understand the right conditions and so understanding itself (no you or me) can condition the arising of kusala. Joop: I understand (more or less). Now I can go back to the topic that interests me: there are hardly differences between animals and human beings, even not on the theme what in western philosophy is called 'free will' (or better: 'free understanding') and in Abhidhamma 'no control' as you explained it. Animals don't have control too. Or don't they even have not the 'understanding' in the way you mentioned it? The reason this theme interests me is that I want to know how the Truth of the teachings can be combined with the (in my opinion) reliable evolutionary theory (aka Darwinism). Metta Joop 38994 From: Suravira Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Dear Howard, Thank you for responding to my messages. > > Consider a continuity of individuality (bhavanga), devoid > > of an intrinsic entity (anatta) - even one that continually exists > > (annica). > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Still you are talking of a consciousness that is an awareness of no > object, [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that is without content, is not being offered in the above statement. > a consciousness without content, and that always exists, but from time > to time knows an object. [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that always exists, is not being offered in the above statement, e.g., refer to annica. > Howard: > From my perspective that doesn't help at all. In fact the notion of an > "awareness that is non-localized in space-time" is mighty close to the > Vedantic notion of atman or brahman. [Suravira] No suggestion of a soul (a.k.a. atman, brahman) is being offered, e.g., refer to anatta. Sorry about the term awareness being of no practical use to you in this context. > Howard: > No first beginning should not imply eternalism, but it will if > consciousness is considered to be saome self-same, comtinuous entity. [Suravira] No suggestion of self-same, continuous entity, e.g., refer to anatta and annica. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My point was simple: Existent consciousness without contact is > consciousness without object. That is not what was taught by the Buddha as I > understand the Dhamma. Nor has it ever been my experience. > ------------------------------------------- > [Suravira] Let me first address your last statement ('Nor has it ever been my experience'). A citta without a contact object is, by definition, not able to be perceived, therefore it is by its nature unconscious. As such none of us are able to state that we have had an unconscious experience. So your assertion is 100% correct. Right on the money! Now for your statement 'Existent consciousness without contact is consciousness without object.' In responce to a sensed object a citta arises, then passes away. The 'contact' event arises and passes away. By the time one (as may be conceived of rightly in accordance with anatta and annica) is conscious of the contact event, that sensed object event is non-existent within the present moment. (So one can readily argue that at any point in time when an object is not being sensed that moment is prior to contact - pick any moment as any moment subsequent to a contact event will be entirely suitable). Between the moment of sense impression and the moment of being conscious of the sensed object (which is to say in the state of being conscious), nama dhamma uncoupled to sense impressions or to concepts (thoughts, memories, etc.) i.e., pannattis dhamma, arise, persist for an instant and cease. These citta devoid of pannattis dhamma and uncoupled to sense impressions are called bhavanga-citta. Citta which we are conscious of ALWAYS have an object- representation, i.e., a concept, thought, memory, etc.). But there are also bhavanga-citta, that is citta without an object- representation, and which we are NEVER conscious of. In short there is an important distinction to be made between being conscious of some thing (which is a state of consciousness) and the nature of consciousness. Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth occuring? Before you explain this, it must be pointed out that at some moment in this transition nama-vinnana must leave one bag of rupa and then arise within another distinctly different bag of rupa - all the while maintaining continuity of individuality. During that transition moment, how can contact occur (in the absense of a bag of rupa, i.e., without 5 physical sense organs)? Furthermore, given that nama has a nature absent of physical properties and therefore absent of any spatial extention, how can nama-vinnana actually occupy a point in space let alone move from that point in space to another point in space? These are not easy questions to grapple with. If the nature of consciousness is such that is always requires contact/concept, then the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth is indefensible (even when taking recourse to arguing from the absolute prespective of truth). Or can the doctrine of rebirth understood by appreciating another aspect of nama-vinnana - i.e., given no spatial extension therefore there is no boundary in which content can be extant. With metta, Suravira 38995 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact/TG - /Suravira/ Hi, Suravira - In a message dated 11/28/04 4:31:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, suravira@d... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > Thank you for responding to my messages. > > >> Consider a continuity of individuality (bhavanga), devoid > >>of an intrinsic entity (anatta) - even one that continually > exists > >>(annica). > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Still you are talking of a consciousness that is an > awareness of no > >object, > > [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that is without content, > is not being offered in the above statement. > > > >a consciousness without content, and that always exists, but from > time > >to time knows an object. > > [Suravira] The proposition of consciousness that always exists, is > not being offered in the above statement, e.g., refer to annica. > > > >Howard: > > From my perspective that doesn't help at all. In fact the > notion of an > >"awareness that is non-localized in space-time" is mighty close to > the > >Vedantic notion of atman or brahman. > > [Suravira] No suggestion of a soul (a.k.a. atman, brahman) is being > offered, e.g., refer to anatta. > > Sorry about the term awareness being of no practical use to you in > this context. > > > >Howard: > > No first beginning should not imply eternalism, but it will > if > >consciousness is considered to be saome self-same, comtinuous > entity. > > [Suravira] No suggestion of self-same, continuous entity, e.g., > refer to anatta and annica. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: From the foregoing, clearly I misunderstood what you wrote before. Sorry. ------------------------------------------ > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > My point was simple: Existent consciousness without contact > is > >consciousness without object. That is not what was taught by the > Buddha as I > >understand the Dhamma. Nor has it ever been my experience. > >------------------------------------------- > > > > [Suravira] Let me first address your last statement ('Nor has it > ever been my experience'). A citta without a contact object is, by > definition, not able to be perceived, therefore it is by its nature > unconscious. --------------------------------------- Howard: I accept the idea of low-level or subtle consciousness, but not the notion of unconscious consciousness. Unconscious consciousness strikes me as a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron. --------------------------------------- > As such none of us are able to state that we have had > an unconscious experience. So your assertion is 100% correct. Right > on the money! > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea of what an unconscious experience is supposed to be. What makes it "experience"? --------------------------------------- > > Now for your statement 'Existent consciousness without contact is > consciousness without object.' In responce to a sensed object a > citta arises, then passes away. The 'contact' event arises and > passes away. By the time one (as may be conceived of rightly in > accordance with anatta and annica) is conscious of the contact > event, that sensed object event is non-existent within the present > moment. (So one can readily argue that at any point in time when an > object is not being sensed that moment is prior to contact - pick > any moment as any moment subsequent to a contact event will be > entirely suitable). ------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry, I don't follow you. When there is conscousness, there also is the object of that consciousness, and there also is the contact. Awareness of the contact, as a fresh memory of a just-passed event, indeed occurs afterwards. ----------------------------------- > > Between the moment of sense impression and the moment of being > conscious of the sensed object (which is to say in the state of > being conscious), nama dhamma uncoupled to sense impressions or to > concepts (thoughts, memories, etc.) i.e., pannattis dhamma, arise, > persist for an instant and cease. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Your writing "Between the moment of sense impression and the moment of being conscious of the sensed object" reads to me that phassa precedes consciousness. Am I misunderstanding you again? --------------------------------------- These citta devoid of pannattis > > dhamma and uncoupled to sense impressions are called bhavanga-citta. > > Citta which we are conscious of ALWAYS have an object- > representation, i.e., a concept, thought, memory, etc.). But there > are also bhavanga-citta, that is citta without an object- > representation, and which we are NEVER conscious of. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: As I understand it, a bhavanga citta is supposed to have the same object ads the prior rebirth citta. That is not explained as being without object so far as I know. But I am rather ignorant of Abhidhamma and Abhidhammic commentaries. I would hpoe that some others here more knowledgeable than I would weigh in on this topic. (Hint, hint!) ------------------------------------------ > > In short there is an important distinction to be made between being > conscious of some thing (which is a state of consciousness) and the > nature of consciousness. > > Consider the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth. According to that > doctrine, continuity of consciousness occurs between the death of > one body (one bag of rupa) and the conception in another body > (another bag of rupa). In that no two bags of rupa can occupy the > same point in space at the same point in time, then how is rebirth > occuring? > > Before you explain this, it must be pointed out that at some moment > in this transition nama-vinnana must leave one bag of rupa and then > arise within another distinctly different bag of rupa - all the > while maintaining continuity of individuality. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: There is nothing leaving, and nothing arriving. I believe that is wrong understanding. -------------------------------------------- During that > > transition moment, how can contact occur (in the absense of a bag of > rupa, i.e., without 5 physical sense organs)? > > Furthermore, given that nama has a nature absent of physical > properties and therefore absent of any spatial extention, how can > nama-vinnana actually occupy a point in space let alone move from > that point in space to another point in space? > > These are not easy questions to grapple with. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I have my understanding of "rebirth" based on phenomenalist perspective, but I'd rather not get into that. ---------------------------------------- > > > If the nature of consciousness is such that is always requires > contact/concept, then the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth is > indefensible (even when taking recourse to arguing from the absolute > prespective of truth). > -------------------------------------- Howard: No. BTW, I have no idea why you write "concept" along with "contact". -------------------------------------- Or can the doctrine of rebirth understood by > > appreciating another aspect of nama-vinnana - i.e., given no spatial > extension therefore there is no boundary in which content can be > extant. > > With metta, > Suravira > > ======================== With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38996 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Degrees of mindfulness of death and degrees of defilements (was Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Hello James, Nina and all James > What about being mindful of one's death? Actually, it was this question that gave rise to my focused concerns about those evil thoughts discussed in the other thread. I found it through the sutta in which the Buddha asks us to ask ourselves what unskillful habits(?) not yet abandoned would remain and cause us kammic trouble if we were to die tonight. In my case, I was able to see some crude, very obvious defilements, accumulated tendencies. And in one case was clearly able to see the conditioning factor for it, and take action to remove it. (again, as I said before, removing it on the surface only.) This morning I came across a far more subtler approach to mindfulness of death, in the sutta in which the Buddha says one should hope to live for the time that it takes to swallow one morsel of food, or in the time it takes for one breath. This to dispell the notion of the monk who thought he had already developed mindfulness of death in thinking that he might live for a day & a night. (Have to run now, so can't track down the proper references. As always, I assume that most people here know the suttas I am referring to. If anyone thinks I have mis-paraphrased them, please point it out.) See, he is urging us towards much more momentary considerations. People with cruder defilements can benefit more from thinking of death in terms of this lifetime and what has or has not been accomplished. As their defilements become more subtle, and their insight more refined, everything gradually becomes much more focused on the moment. And that includes mindfulness of death. Just a theory. Please let me know of any faults you see in it. And this, James, Howard and Hugo (I have yet to get around to the post in "Evil thoughts" in which the value of discussion is disputed) is an example of why it is important to read suttas in the company of admirable friends, and not on one's own. If I sat developing my own theories about suttas, I would become fossilized in wrong view. In the company of good friends, through discussion, one's wrong views are corrected, and proper insights that one has had can be confirmed. Metta, Phil 38997 From: Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga disturbed Hi Nina, I'm not sure if we are seeing eye to eye on this rather unimportant but interesting question. So, to clarify: Vism.XIV,115 Note 46. "...How does there come to be disturbance of the life- continuum that has a different support?... L: "I assume "different support" means different sense-base. This suggests 2 rupas to me, internal and external, and explains a little how defective organs impinge on consciousness with erroneous data. How do you see it? N: "Bhavanga-citta has its own object, it cannot experience two objects. It takes its own course, has nothing to do with process cittas. It is just a simile." L: The two rupas are the rupa that impinges on the sensitive material of the sense base and the rupa that interrupts bhavanga and is the object of consciousness. We could probably say this second rupa is an extension of the sensitive matter that stretches from the sense base to the mind base. In any case this commentary seems to clearly recognize that the external rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter is not the rupa that is the object of consciousness. Larry 38998 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hello Rob, and all Carrying on with my de-feeding of the schadenfreude beast. Last night I did check the headlines, and scanned a few stories, but felt no great interest and this morning no desire to look. Rob: Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are watching TV. Phil: No. How many times a day do we remember this? Not many in my case. The Buddha asked "Is form constant or inconstant" and so on for the other khandas, and the other characteristics) A few times a day I remember it. But of course remembering it and thinking about it is not the same as *knowing* it. But first times first. Thanks for the reminder this morning. Rob: No one puts it clearer than the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . Phil: So yes, there is delusion when we think "I can perform." It is all elements. And yet, as I've been saying lately, there is guidance in the Suttanta related to taking action on clearly indentified blemishes etc. This is a far shallower degree of insight than that which will arise, or not arise, into elements. I think of those similes for the khanhas that we were talking about some time ago. Thinking of the khandas in terms of a disease as compared to thinking about them as dissolution, as elements, compared yet again to *knowing* them to be so. Rob: Instead of been by akusala why not understand it as it is. If you read the suttas without understanding the conventional language they are termed in you will go wrong. There is TRUE right effort at a moment of understanding the dhamma that is arising now. Phil: I assume the above typo was "being trouble by akusala" or words to that effect. Yes, you're right. I always encourage your reminders to get back to the moment. And from Nina. And from K Sujin, and from so many others here. That's what the Buddha's "Is form constant or inconstant" does as well. And yet, if there is a cacophonic narrative going on in our head, and we have come to see how to shut it off, why not do so, lickety split. Again, I'm talking of very crude things. We know that technically speaking it is not right view if we turn off the TV when we are trying to study Dhamma, it is not right view to cling to calm, but sometimes it is just plain common sense to sort out one's junk a bit. I think in Visu I read about the importance of keeping one's meditation space tidy and uncluttered, or words to that effect. Rob K You talk about having evil thoughts about 9/11 and trying to stop them. But if you know that sound is sound and thinking is thinking it all becomes merely objects for insight. And learning to see this you will have no doubt at all that there are no beings anywhere, there are just conditions, mere dukkha, arising and ceasing. Phil: Again, I always appreciate your reminders. I got one two paragraphs back, and appreciated it, but then I babbled, and now you bring me back to the moment. That is what good Dhamma friends are for, more confirmation of the value of DSG. Rob: I asked one of the group?@who are translating Buddhism in Daily life in Japan how they felt towards a guy last year who killed 6 or 7 primary school students. One who has really caught onto what Dhamma is said she felt neutral.?@I said I would love to meet him because I think he would appreciate Dhamma now (since been executed). So hearing about Osama or Bush is like a small test to show us whether we have a little understanding or none at all. Phil: Yes. And you know, since I stopped watching the news, or reading about it, and Bush comes to mind (hardly ever now) I feel much more detached. There was that narrative that I had been feeding on, proliferating on. It was drowning out the small voice that said "is there seeing now? is form constant or inconstant?" Rob: Why do we always want to complicate the Dhamma. I guess being aware of the present moment is just something that doesn't seem feasible or something..? Phil: I think there is a conflict, at times, between wanting to be "mentally healthy" in *this* lifetime and the aspiration to develop deep and true insight. Perhaps if I had sat with all those wicked thoughts longer I would have come to understand them in a more liberating way. But I was suffering, and wanted relief. And took action, guided by some suttas that were definitely not as subtle or penetrative as Abhidhamma, but which I still feel I did not misread. (At least, no one has yet told me in which way I have. For example, the one about the monk discerning which effluents(?) are to be tolerated with equanimity, and which are to be abandoned. Being aware of the present moment - yes, especially in the West there is this desire for more dramatic results. We don't appreciate the value of a moment of mindfulness. (I use the inclusive "we" very liberally!) I see this every year when I talk about "New Year's Resolutions" with my Japanese students. There is such wise disinterest in New Year's Resolutions here. Not that people here are content with the moment, mind you. Try to find a young person on the train who is just sitting without fiddling with his or her cell phone e-mail messages, or fiddling with his or her hair, or make-up, or clothes to be reassured that nothing is amiss. Metta, Phil 38999 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Rob K) Hello all The Rob is Rob K. > Hello Rob, and all > > Carrying on with my de-feeding of the schadenfreude beast. > Last night I did check the headlines, and scanned a few stories, > but felt no great interest and this morning no desire to look. > > > Rob: Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are > watching TV. (snip) Metta, Phil