42400 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Spiritual Friendship Hello All, From a talk by Ajahn Amaro: "There is a very often-quoted saying in the scriptures on spiritual friendship. One day Ananda, his closest disciple, came up to the Buddha and said: 'Lord, I think that half of the of the Holy Life is spiritual friendship, association with the Lovely.' And the Buddha replied: 'That's not so; say not so, Ananda. It is not half of the Holy Life, it is the whole of the Holy Life. The entire Holy Life is friendship, association with the Lovely.' Now, the Pali word for 'friendship with the Lovely' is kalyanamitta. 'Kalyana' means 'lovely' or beautiful and 'mitta' means 'friend'. So it is often translated as association or affiliation with the Lovely (with a capital L), being an epithet for Ultimate Reality or the Unconditioned. It is interesting that for years I always used to quote it as: 'Spiritual friendship is the whole of the Holy Life', but the Buddha was making a play on words - he was also saying that it is not just having spiritual friends that is the whole of the Holy Life, but our affiliation, our intimacy with the Lovely, with the Ultimate Truth. These two support each other. Our like-minded companions and associates in spiritual life support our effort, but it is actually our ability to awaken to that which is truly Lovely, to the Wonderful, to Ultimate Reality - that is, in its own way, the very fire of our spiritual life." (Ajahn Amaro) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 42401 From: Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object condition and Connie's quote. Nina: "The citta with regret can indeed have as object anger that arose before. Then the citta with regret arises in a following process. When regret arises, regret can be the object of citta that notices regret, or, the object of right awareness, if there are conditions for awareness, that is mindful of the characteristic of regret. When anger or aversion arises, there is another dhamma with another characteristic. Only one object can be experienced at a time." Hi Nina and Howard, First, can we all agree that when citta with regret arises, regret is not the object of that specific citta? Now, Nina uses the expression "citta experiences its object". My contention is that citta does not experience its object. Simply, regret does not experience anger, but regret is an experience. However, regret can be an object condition for mindfulness of regret. I would say this is the recollection (remembering) of regret with appropriate identity markers. It seems to me this memory arises in javana and its object is the original regret. Here's the scenario: anger>regret>mindfulness. There are three arisings as javana and no arisings as object. In this scenario anger and regret are object conditions, but they don't arise as objects.They arise only once as javana. Regret does not experience anger and mindfulness (recollection of regret) does not experience regret. Anger, regret, and mindfulness are each experiences; there isn't something else that experiences them. In a sense this is a very simple and straightforward point: there are no objects of consciousness because nothing arises as an object separate from consciousness. We could say rupa arises separate from consciousness but it isn't an experience until it is a consciousness in the same way that anger is an experience. So when rupa isn't an experience it isn't "arising". I have a feeling this is still too complicated and controversial, but it makes a difference in bringing one's experience into immediacy. There is no "over there" or "before" or "later". There is only here and now without a boundary of here and now. Larry 42402 From: Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Vism.XIV,139 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 139. (viii) It puts (aadhiyati) consciousness evenly (sama"m) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammaa) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samaadhaana) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samaadhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. 42403 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanti and "setting up" mindfulness. Hi Hugo Thanks for your fedback. Phil > > I think it is possible to benefit from the > > Buddha's teaching in a way that makes life cozier and helps us to > > avoid gross infractions, but which has nothing to do with developing > > the panna that is needed for true liberation. > Hugo> How come pañña won't be developed if you see that some practices work > in some ways and others work in some other ways, and at the end all of > them just work temporarily so there is no practice worth to hold on > to? Yes, there is the "wisdom" that life experience brings us, whether we follow Dhamma are not. The kind of wisdom that applies in that old chestnut about give me the patience to bear what I must, the strngth to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. That kind of wisdom is valuable, for sure. But I've come to feel lately - just beginnning to understand- that panna is not this kind of wisdom. Panna penetrates and sees into realities. It is panna that will begin to help us extricate ourselves from clinging, if it is cultivated. It is very powerful, but also relatively rare. Just as we know that only the Buddha teaches anatta, we can say that there is a panna, a wisdom, that only the Buddha teaches, because it is directly related to penetrating - or not - to realities in a way that makes anatta directly realizable - or not- eventually. On the other hand, yes, there is much to be gained from gaining access to a more conventional kind of wisdom through the Buddha's teaching. Learning what is good for us and bad for us, what makes us suffer more and what makes us suffer less. But this conventional kind of wisdom doesn't penetrate and won't lead us to ultimate liberation. These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. Phil > > I still wonder about this "set up" mindfulness that Bhikkhu Bodhi > > uses in his translation, for it does sound intentional, but there is > > also understanding that going about mindfulness in an intentional way > > is wrong. > > To someone walking on the left side of the road, the guide will shout > "go right". > > To someone walking on the right side of the road, the guide will shout > "go left". Yes, middle way is so important. I'm happy to get more conventionally-termed messages from suttas and from Dhamma friends that help me avoid becoming too passive about cultivating sati. Abhidhamma is *not* about being passive, but people with tendencies to laziness like myself could wander off the trail and fall asleep in the daisies without support from Dhamma friends. Metta, Phil 42404 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Hugo (and Rob M), ------------- KH: > > If it was the latter, then I think you were introducing a self into > the Buddha's teaching. You were recommending a practice whereby, > for example, *I* should *want* to single out *my* wrong tendencies > so that *I* can overcome something that *I* find *objectionable*. > There is a lot of self and attachment and aversion in that > practice. :-) H: > I am not introducing anything into the Buddha's teaching. -------------------------- I know you wouldn't do it intentionally. However, when we *try* to understand something that is beyond our present understanding, aren't we bound to alter its meaning? Don't we introduce our own preconceptions into the teaching? ------------------------ H: > But I agree that "doing" this technique means that you are "using" a self. And I agree, there is self, attachment and aversion in that practice. > ------------------------- I am genuinely unsure of what is happening here. Are you agreeing with me that "trying" is not the Middle Way?" And are you agreeing that the technique of watching one's own behaviour patterns (in order to develop tranquillity and insight) is motivated by self- interest and therefore not what the Buddha taught? Ken H 42405 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken and all >And are you agreeing > that the technique of watching one's own behaviour patterns (in > order to develop tranquillity and insight) is motivated by self- > interest and therefore not what the Buddha taught? Yes, but there can be moments of observation of the patterns of one's mind, and resolve based on that observation. The Buddha teaches about seeing a blemish that has been accumulated in the mind, and resolving to make an effort in response. (Don't have the sutta refence on hand, but I think it's in AN.) The tricky thing is remembering that this resolve will only be of value if we understand that it arises due to conditions and can't be had so easily. Also, "watching" implies something we can do continuously, by will. "Seeing" is more like it. Catching a glimpse, and then it's gone again for who knows how long. Patience is the key. Metta, Phil 42406 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? RobM Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > What would cause a maha-kiriya somanassa javana to arise (in an > > Arahant)? Certainly not an undesirable object! > > > > What would cause a hasituppada javana to arise (in an Arahant)? > > Certainly not an undesirable object! > > > > Therefore, this must be a case of a desirable (or desirable- > neutral) > > object and so the kusala vipaka retention is in line with my > earlier > > statements. > > Really, so you're saying intrinsic nature of object limits the > type of javana that can arise. That seems to be additional criteria > unlike what you said before about just based on "accumulation". > That was one of my original questions, doesn't your position put > limits on javana. Before you seem to say no, now you say yes. > Now, hasituppada is smiling mind of arahats right. So you know > the stories of Ashin Ananda asking Buddha to explain whenever Buddha > smiles I'm sure. Does he not smile when he encounters wretched > creatures in several stories? I would think a reasonable person > would deem those sights undesirable objects. How does that work? ===== An Arahant has no accumulations to support perversion of perception (sanna vipallasa). Therefore, an Arahant directly knows an object rather than perceiving an object (see Mulapariyaya Sutta, Mn 1, and especially its commentary for details). The javana cittas of an Arahant are still conditioned by accumulations, but in the case of an Arahant, the nature of the javana will follow the intrinsic nature of the object; this is an indirect relationship that only holds true because the Arahant does not have the accumulations to interfere (in other words, the Arahant directly knows). Metta, Rob M :-) 42407 From: Hugo Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanti and "setting up" mindfulness. Dear Phil, Some more thoughts complementing my last message: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:50 -0000, Philip wrote: > I used to do this sort of thing - having a > session on the cushion before leaving for work, to "set up" metta so > I could be more harmless during the day. And you know, this sort of > intentional "setting up" *does* bring results, on the surface. There > seems to be more control over anger, ill-will, lust. But it took me > further away from detachment, from understanding, from devloping > panna, not closer. If you didn't find any development of pañña is because you did it only as rites and rituals and because you wanted it to be "THE ANSWER". From the information you provide I can see the potential to learn a lot out of it as I already pointed in the past message, in this message I just wanted to provide more details on what I would learn from that experience. First you verified that you cling to a self, you also verified that that self can decide what to do, first you decided to do something and did it, then you decided to stop doing it and then you stopped doing it. Remember I am talking about a self deciding, I am talking conventional. > I think it is possible to benefit from the > Buddha's teaching in a way that makes life cozier and helps us to > avoid gross infractions, but which has nothing to do with developing > the panna that is needed for true liberation. No, you need to "observe with wisdom", so go back and observe your experiment, what did you do, what happened, what results did you obtained. What was "under your control"? (remember I am talking conventional, I perfectly know that everything is conditioned and can't be controlled, no need to repeat the mantra stating the truth). If you say it worked and you were less "harmful", is that a good thing or bad, is it in line with the Buddha's teachings or not? If you say that you found that it is just on the surface but didn't uproot the defilement, then it tells you that you can't rely on it to do the job, but nonetheless it is a useful tool until the defilement is uprooted. What if you hadn't done it? From what you said I guess you would suffer and make others suffer too. (remember I am talking conventional, I know there is no "I", there is no "others", and nobody "makes" anybody suffer). So, should you keep doing it? My opinion is yes, but of course keep in mind that it is not "THE ANSWER", it just one tool. So keep working, find out what works, what doesn't, and how to use them. As long as we cling to this self we should find the best things to do in order to be more wise so we can "uncling" from it, but you need to understand how it works before you can dissassemble it. On the other hand, you may want to stop doing it, but then observe what happens, does your behavior gets better worse or the same. Keep trying things but observe with wisdom everything that happens. You want to go to a certain place, what's the first thing you need to know? You need to know where you are. P.S. I am talking conventional all over the place. Greetings, -- Hugo 42408 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? RobM Hi Kel, Sorry but I forgot to preface my explanation with the most important comment: the selected example (maha-kiriya javana cittas) only arises in Arahants, so it is a "special case". Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > > What would cause a maha-kiriya somanassa javana to arise (in an > > > Arahant)? Certainly not an undesirable object! > > > > > > What would cause a hasituppada javana to arise (in an Arahant)? > > > Certainly not an undesirable object! > > > > > > Therefore, this must be a case of a desirable (or desirable- > > neutral) > > > object and so the kusala vipaka retention is in line with my > > earlier > > > statements. > > > > Really, so you're saying intrinsic nature of object limits the > > type of javana that can arise. That seems to be additional > criteria > > unlike what you said before about just based on "accumulation". > > That was one of my original questions, doesn't your position put > > limits on javana. Before you seem to say no, now you say yes. > > Now, hasituppada is smiling mind of arahats right. So you know > > the stories of Ashin Ananda asking Buddha to explain whenever > Buddha > > smiles I'm sure. Does he not smile when he encounters wretched > > creatures in several stories? I would think a reasonable person > > would deem those sights undesirable objects. How does that work? > > ===== > > An Arahant has no accumulations to support perversion of perception > (sanna vipallasa). Therefore, an Arahant directly knows an object > rather than perceiving an object (see Mulapariyaya Sutta, Mn 1, and > especially its commentary for details). > > The javana cittas of an Arahant are still conditioned by > accumulations, but in the case of an Arahant, the nature of the > javana will follow the intrinsic nature of the object; this is an > indirect relationship that only holds true because the Arahant does > not have the accumulations to interfere (in other words, the Arahant > directly knows). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 42409 From: Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object condition and Connie's quote. Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/16/05 7:28:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "The citta with regret can indeed have as object anger that arose > before. Then the citta with regret arises in a following process. When > regret arises, regret can be the object of citta that notices regret, > or, the object of right awareness, if there are conditions for > awareness, that is mindful of the characteristic of regret. When anger > or aversion arises, there is another dhamma with another characteristic. > Only one object can be experienced at a time." > > Hi Nina and Howard, > > First, can we all agree that when citta with regret arises, regret is > not the object of that specific citta? > ------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not so sure about that. I'll say a bit more shortly. ------------------------------------- > > Now, Nina uses the expression "citta experiences its object". My > contention is that citta does not experience its object. Simply, regret > does not experience anger, but regret is an experience. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I think that when regret arises, it is not a disembodied regret. It is a regret *about* something. And I don't think that this regret occupies a single mind moment. I don't think that what we usually mean by regret is a paramattha dhamma. I believe that there is anger, and then, in some order, sadness, then some thinking which associates the sadness with the anger, then some more thinking that expresses the wish that the anger hadn't arisen, then some more sadness etc, etc. I think this whole process is what "regret" is about. In fact, more generally, I think that most of what we think are single mindstates are actually complex psychophysical processes consisting of a multitude of related mindstates. Abhidhamma states that each single mindstate involves the presence of a primary content called "the object" plus a multitude of operations pertaining to and dealing with that object. When and if I ever get to clearly know a single mindstate, I'll weigh in on that! ;-)) Meanwhile, I simply don't know whether all mindstates have objects, or whether there might not be some that do not. I even have some doubts about mindstates themselves, if they are to be thought of as (near-) instantaneous, because I believe that for a cetasika to be operative *it takes time*! Of course, later commentary did allow for arising, maintaining, and decling phases to a mindstate, which already backs away from instantaneousness. We could make a bet about the "object" business. The first one of us who really gets to know, deserves to win the bet, regardless of which side we took! ;-)) ---------------------------------- > > However, regret can be an object condition for mindfulness of regret. I > would say this is the recollection (remembering) of regret with > appropriate identity markers. It seems to me this memory arises in > javana and its object is the original regret. > > Here's the scenario: anger>regret>mindfulness. There are three arisings > as javana and no arisings as object. In this scenario anger and regret > are object conditions, but they don't arise as objects.They arise only > once as javana. Regret does not experience anger and mindfulness > (recollection of regret) does not experience regret. Anger, regret, and > mindfulness are each experiences; there isn't something else that > experiences them. > > In a sense this is a very simple and straightforward point: there are no > objects of consciousness because nothing arises as an object separate > from consciousness. > ------------------------------------ It doesn't arise *separate* from consciousness, but that doesn't mean that is *is* consciousness. (As you know, I think of consciousness of an experience as the presence of the experience.) ------------------------------------- We could say rupa arises separate from consciousness> > but it isn't an experience until it is a consciousness in the same way > that anger is an experience. So when rupa isn't an experience it isn't > "arising". > > > I have a feeling this is still too complicated and controversial, but it > makes a difference in bringing one's experience into immediacy. There is > no "over there" or "before" or "later". There is only here and now > without a boundary of here and now. > > Larry > > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42410 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? RobM Hi RobM, > > Now, hasituppada is smiling mind of arahats right. So you know > > the stories of Ashin Ananda asking Buddha to explain whenever > Buddha > > smiles I'm sure. Does he not smile when he encounters wretched > > creatures in several stories? I would think a reasonable person > > would deem those sights undesirable objects. How does that work? > > ===== > > An Arahant has no accumulations to support perversion of perception > (sanna vipallasa). Therefore, an Arahant directly knows an object > rather than perceiving an object (see Mulapariyaya Sutta, Mn 1, and > especially its commentary for details). > > The javana cittas of an Arahant are still conditioned by > accumulations, but in the case of an Arahant, the nature of the > javana will follow the intrinsic nature of the object; this is an > indirect relationship that only holds true because the Arahant does > not have the accumulations to interfere (in other words, the Arahant > directly knows). Ok, kiriyas are special case in which javanas will following the intrinsic nature of the object. I can accept that. But you didn't address hasituppada citta when Buddha sees lowly beings. By your logic it can't arise, is that right? - Kel 42411 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: fifth precept question Hi Tonia, Welcome to DSG. In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there are no drinkers and there are no intoxicating liquors. There are, however, conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). When there are conditions for unwholesome (akusala) nama to arise, akusala nama will arise, and there is no controlling self (no living being) who can stop it. Understanding this, a Dhamma student would never take a vow to keep the precepts. As worldlings, you and I have not eradicated the conditions that cause akusala nama to arise. We may, for example, be tee-totalers now, but, in the future (near or distant), we will almost certainly break the fifth precept. Only after Stream-entry (the first stage of enlightenment) will some of those conditions be permanently eradicated. There will still be no controlling self, but there will be no possibility of breaking any of the five precepts. Ken H 42412 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Phil, Thanks for the letter. There are so many points to address in this one letter though that I shudder to think that it is just one in a series! ;-)) I cannot promise to be able to keep up. Let me address some points that you have scattered about: Phil: I'm writing this as I read. Looking forward to what you have to say, James. When I first came to this group I remember protesting about "dojo yaburi", about people who didn't follow the group's founding principles interfering with the bhavana. Now of course I see I was wrong… Then when my computer crashed it gave me a chance to see where I was at without the group, and I found that enthusiasm for Kh Sujin's approach didn't fade while I was away, though the desire to discuss Dhamma did. Anyways, thanks for always being outspoken. If nobody was outspoken Dhamma discussion would be pointless. James: I'm not sure I would consider participation in this group to be `bhavana'. Bhavana is the development of calm and insight. Reading the posts in this group isn't likely to lead to calm (especially my `outspoken' ones ;-)) and it isn't necessarily going to lead to insight unless the knowledge learned leads to the investigation of oneself (5 Khandas) in times away from the computer. Predominately, in my opinion, this group builds the development of sanna (a theoretical understanding acquired from memory) and not necessarily panna (genuine understanding based on wisdom). Additionally, I believe it is natural to go through various stages of understanding. First, you thought I was a troublemaker who should leave this group, now you see that my presence serves a purpose even when you don't agree. Now, you have enthusiasm for K. Sujin's approach, who knows what the future will hold? At least you don't cling stubbornly to your views and you are willing to drop them when they no longer meet your needs. That is why your posts never irritate me and I think you will go far in wisdom. Phil: Now it's true that these similes are used to talk about not knowing where the journey began, and don't explicitly say that the journey from here will be long. James: I'm glad that you realize this. The journey for one who practices the Buddha's teaching is not supposed to be long. Yes, we have gone through countless lifetimes, experienced the joys of heaven and the tortures of hell, had some insights and then lost them again, but it was all for naught. Only following the Noble Eightfold Path will lead to the end of the cycle of samsara, and it is not supposed to take countless more lifetimes (unless one aspires to become a Buddha). Phil: But it seems very clear to me that the implication of all that grime is accumulated is that we *cannot* develop sati in a hurry. James: I am not advocating developing sati in a `hurry' either. One has to be reasonable about how long it will take, considering the time dedicated to the practice and the availability of a good teacher when difficulties arise. However, it is not automatically supposed to take aeons! That is what K. Sujin said, I heard it with my own ears, and I don't agree with that perspective and believe it is contrary to the Buddha's teaching. Phil: If we spend enough time absorbed in Samyutta NIkaya, reflectng on khandas, how can such a concern about this one lifetime persist? What is the hurry? James: The hurry is that one needs to develop the insight to become a sotapanna in this lifetime or risk the possibility of forever remaining in the cycle of samsara. There are some levels of existence where the possibilities of creating enough merit or insight to escape are very slim to none. K. Sujin states that insight must develop over numerous lifetimes but insight doesn't work that way. Insight doesn't accumulate from lifetime to lifetime unless there is a sincere effort to make it accumulate. The defilements are must stronger and persistent than insight and they will defile the aspirant's mind in a relatively short time span… insight doesn't last for aeons in the worldling. Phil: James, do you honestly believe that this teaching applies to householders in modern society, thousands of years removed from being taught directly by the Buddha? James: Of course I do! The Buddha didn't put an expiration date on his teaching. He put an expiration date on the sasana, but that is a different matter. Phil: I can imagine people with a calendar on the wall of their minds, counting off the days. James: Oh, if only people were that mindful!! Unfortunately, most people think they have all the time in the world and aren't mindful of how much or how little they have accomplished, especially when it comes to insight. Phil: In your case, this might lead to confidence that progress has been made and enlightenment can be believed to be around the corner. James: I don't believe that enlightenment is `around the corner' for me. Lol. But I think that if it takes countless more lifetimes, I have failed in this lifetime and have wasted the precious opportunity of being born human during a Buddha sasana. That would be a very grievous error, indeed. Phil: So for me, this "seven days" teaching is absurd. I am not a monk sitting in the presence of the Buddha, that's for sure. The accumulations are *obviously* radically different in a way that would make it absurd to think in terms of months let along weeks or days. James: Phil, one does not need to be a monk to practice the Buddha's teachings. Allow me to quote from the commentary notes of the Satipatthana Sutta: Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said: "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. An ascetic and mendicant too."[16] Phil: I'll stop there for today, James. I'll respond to your letter over several days - it will function as a kind of sign off for me since I'll be moving next week and will be away from the internet for awhile. (Who knows how long?) James: I will try my best to respond. If you post again, please notify me off-list as I don't read all of the posts nowadays (just too many to follow effectively). Metta, James 42413 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Introduction Hi All, Off-list, I have been asked to give a brief "self-introduction" here as I disappeared for a while and there are many new members. This may be a trick question as there is no "self" only a collection of aggregates :-) The collection of aggregates commonly called "Rob M": - Is a Canadian-born engineer living in Malaysia - Spent much of the past 15 years travelling around Asia Pacific - Has been teaching a Sunday morning introductory Abhidhamma class for the past few years Metta, Rob M :-) 42414 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? RobM Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi RobM, > > > > Now, hasituppada is smiling mind of arahats right. So you know > > > the stories of Ashin Ananda asking Buddha to explain whenever > > Buddha > > > smiles I'm sure. Does he not smile when he encounters wretched > > > creatures in several stories? I would think a reasonable person > > > would deem those sights undesirable objects. How does that work? > > > > ===== > > > > An Arahant has no accumulations to support perversion of > perception > > (sanna vipallasa). Therefore, an Arahant directly knows an object > > rather than perceiving an object (see Mulapariyaya Sutta, Mn 1, > and > > especially its commentary for details). > > > > The javana cittas of an Arahant are still conditioned by > > accumulations, but in the case of an Arahant, the nature of the > > javana will follow the intrinsic nature of the object; this is an > > indirect relationship that only holds true because the Arahant > does > > not have the accumulations to interfere (in other words, the > Arahant > > directly knows). > > Ok, kiriyas are special case in which javanas will following the > intrinsic nature of the object. I can accept that. But you didn't > address hasituppada citta when Buddha sees lowly beings. By your > logic it can't arise, is that right? ===== We have to be a bit careful here. Desirable / desirable-neutral / undesirable makes more sense to me when considering sense objects like temperature, pressure, taste, odour, etc. and the classification makes less sense when considering visible objects. A visible object is like a photograph, an image of a current scene captured in the instantaneous opening of a camera shutter. The visible object is pre-analysis of contents. Once we start recognizing forms and naming, we are dealing with concepts and mind- objects; no more visible objects. I would think that virtually all visible objects would fall into the desirable-neutral category (note the careful avoidance of categorical statement :-) ). Does the story say that in the very same citta process that the Buddha first took the wretched creature as visible object gave rise to a hasituppada javana citta? No. I suspect that the hasituppada javana citta arose in a later, mind-door citta process. There are other instances in the Suttas of the Buddha commenting on his bodily aches and pains. However, I don't recall any mention of him smiling as he made these comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 42415 From: naresh gurwani Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new to the group Hi I was watchingyour conversation, if u can help me out how one can dedicate for meditating does this mean watching in & out breath ?? pls reply Naresh --- tonia wrote: > > Hugo (and a message at the end for all), > > > Ah!, and let's not forget that reading is NOT the > most important > > thing, it is PRACTICING, so instead of reading for > 1 hr. a day, read > > 30 mins. and meditate 30 mins. Ok? ;-) > > > T: Thank you so much for the advise. I was doing a > lot of reading - > trying to learn as much as possible, but thanks to > your kind advice, I > see that I should seek balance. <...> 42416 From: Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object condition and Connie's quote. Howard: "We could make a bet about the "object" business. The first one of us who really gets to know, deserves to win the bet, regardless of which side we took! ;-))" Hi Howard, If someone found out directly that there is no object who would they tell? Larry 42417 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Phil, I wrote to Hugo: ------------- > And are you agreeing > that the technique of watching one's own behaviour patterns (in > order to develop tranquillity and insight) is motivated by self- > interest and therefore not what the Buddha taught? -------------- Your response began with, "yes, but," which is a bit of a worry. Am I right or am I wrong? I can't be both! :-) -------------------- Ph: > Yes, but there can be moments of observation of the patterns of one's mind, and resolve based on that observation. The Buddha teaches about seeing a blemish that has been accumulated in the mind, and resolving to make an effort in response. (Don't have the sutta refence on hand, but I think it's in AN.) ------------------------------------ That's interesting. I wonder if he was describing a moment of satipatthana or just ordinary kusala citta. Recently, someone quoted a sutta in which there were five factors for enlightenment rather than the usual four. I think they began with kusala citta, which I take to mean that we wouldn't be interested in the other four factors unless we first had an appreciation of the benefits of kusala and the dangers of akusala. ------------------ Ph: > The tricky thing is remembering that this resolve will only be of value if we understand that it arises due to conditions and can't be had so easily. ------------------ I agree. The suttas tell us to see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things.' --------------------- Ph: > Also, "watching" implies something we can do continuously, by will. "Seeing" is more like it. Catching a glimpse, and then it's gone again for who knows how long. Patience is the key. --------------------- Yes, *and* patience is conditioned - just like everything else. :-) Ken H 42418 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:00pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 125 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** When manasikåra accompanies a citta which cultivates samatha, it ‘joins’ citta and the other cetasikas to the meditation subject, such as a corpse or the Buddha’s virtues. When the citta is rúpåvacara kusala citta, the accompanying manasikåra is also rúpåvacara; it is different from manasikåra which is kåmåvacara (belonging to the sense sphere). Rúpåvacara citta experiences the meditation subject with absorption and the accompanying manasikåra ‘joins’ citta and the accompanying cetasikas to that object. The manasikåra which accompanies arúpåvacara citta is still more tranquil and more refined than the manasikåra which accompanies rúpåvacara citta. When manasikåra accompanies the citta which develops vipassanå, right understanding of nåma and rúpa, there is attention towards the nåma or rúpa which is the object of mindfulness at that moment; manasikåra assists the citta and joins it to that nåma or rúpa. When manasikåra accompanies lokuttara citta, manasikåra is also lokuttara and it joins citta and the accompanying cetasikas to the object which is nibbåna. We are likely to have a concept of self which has attention to this or that object, but attention, manasikåra, is a conditioned dhamma, it is conditioned by the citta and the cetasikas it accompanies, it arises and falls away together with them. At each moment there is a different citta and thus also a different manasikåra. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 42419 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:13am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 125 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (i) Hi All, The Dhammasangani (1st book of the Abhihdhamma), opens with an open- ended list of cetasikas found in wholesome cittas. The list matches quite well with the close-ended list from the Abhidhammatthasangaha (with a couple of interesting twists), but the Dhammasangani list does not include manasikara. Does anybody have any theories as to why this might be so? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) 42420 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun Hi Hugo, James & all, Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta on Fire)? --- Hugo wrote: > > Dear All (too many to list), > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:24:19 -0000, buddhatrue > wrote: > > He said that `devas and humans' would > > not be able to see him after death; in other words, he was not going > > to be reborn. However, he did not say anything about if other > > arahants would be able to see him or not. > > Yes, that's what I meant, thanks. > > Like with satellite communications, .... Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta on Fire)in this connection? Could even arahants see flames which have been extinguished? http://www.vipassana.info/072-aggi-vacchagotta-e1.htm ***** "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'" "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)." "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." Metta, Sarah p.s Hugo, you misunderstood a comment I made about 'I'd prefer to...';-) Not a form of practice and not obsrving what I can at the present moment as you interpreted it....anatta, remember!! ======== 42421 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Hugo & Sukinder 1 Hi Hugo, > > Sukinder: > > If I make a choice not to respond to your invitation to meditate, it would > > be due to conditions either wholesome or unwholesome, with or without > > right view. > > H: I agree, but I am talking at the conventional level, othewise we can > save time and just say that everything is inconstant, suffering, > impersonal and subject to conditions and be done with any further > discusssions. S: I think we often mistake conventional realities to be real, so being reminded that they are not and that only paramattha dhammas are so is quite necessary. In other words we have to know with increasing clarity what this "everything" is. ------------------------------------------------ > > Now, one can react to conventional realities without knowing anything > > about what really underlies the actions. > > H: Yes, and that's my main topic, how to react to "conventional > realities", in other words what decisions to make. S: Know that they are not real and that it is the underlying dhammas which we are ignorant of and which needs to be known, else there would be no development of understanding. ------------------------------------------- > H: The way I see it, is something like this, there is a self that I > created, The Buddha said that it is not constant, thus I shouldn't > cling to it. Nonetheless I still cling to it, so if I believe in what > the Buddha said I should be looking on how to "uncling" to it, or how > to make it "dissappear", maybe better said, how to not keep creating it. S: Lobha, ditthi and mana are the three ways by which there is any `self' manifesting. These are what is needed to be recognized and known to have the three characteristics. Lobha and mana is eradicated only by arahatta magga and ditthi at stream entry. So it is very important that we must first have Right View about dhamma starting with the intellectual level. Otherwise it is the self which seeks to eradicate this and achieve that, and this is not the way to understand dhammas for what they are, less eradicate them. So any idea to "uncling" and make "disappear", is most likely from self-view. ------------------------------------------- > > If this moment > > has already arisen and fallen away conditioning the subsequent > > moment, including any idea on our part as to what this might be, where > > is there control? Even the idea to "do" something or to develop kusala or > > satipatthana, is conditioned by our views. We may take seriously the > > idea of a `self', `doing meditation' in `time' and `future results', all of > > which are in fact only `concepts' and not ultimate realities. > > H: I agree, but again, we could save much time just stating those truths > and stop discussing, after all if all we do is state truths and truths > without helping the "selves" really understand those truths how good > is a discussion? S: So the important thing is to understand them now and not think about `doing something in order to understand'. It is good to hear about the truths, and it is good to tell others about them. The practice is when these truths are directly understood and this can happen even while reading or while writing about truths. But why do you suppose that speaking about truths is opposed to practice? And even if there is no practice while reading or writing at any given time, why do you suppose that discussion about them is useless? I think that may be because you believe in "selves" on a certain level, and this leads you to think that this `self' must do something in order to understand. Hence the choice to 'do practice' and 'not to read and discuss', perhaps? ---------------------------------- > > H: If just stating the truth again and again was enough for everybody, > that would have been all the Buddha did, just keep repeating the truth > in the exact same way always, without using similes, without > encouraging people to train, etc. S: We too could be helped by studying the suttas where the teachings about ultimate realities are expressed using conventional examples and similes. However unlike those during His time, our accumulated wisdom is so very weak that we get lost in stories and miss the relevant lessons of dhamma. This is why we are considered the slow ones who need to hear much detail, i.e. Abhidhamma. And I think it is reflective of this kind of being lost in stories about self and end goals, that we interpret the teachings as being prescriptive instead of descriptions about dhammas. --------------------------------------- > > If their practice does not lead to detachment, then it must be > > attachment that they bring to their practice. Why does one want to > > continue a certain practice, in order to finally be detached?!!? > > H: Why, because maybe that's the only way they can. S: Or think they can. ;-)…………………. > How do kids learn to write? > > They use a special notebook with lines on it so they know that the > "little letters" go only up to that height, while the "big letters" go > all the way up. > > I learned to write that way, now I can write on paper that has no > lines whatsoever. > > How do kids learn to ride a bike? > > They use supporting wheels, or somebody supporting the bike for them. > Do they eventually get rid of the wheels and the somebody? yes! S: ………….And this may be the kind of thinking which is at fault. The worldling's view and subsequent actions are based on attachment and ignorance. The conditions which lead to being able to climb the Everest or winning the Nobel Prize is quite opposite to those that lead to understanding dhammas, including greed and ignorance. The path must be accompanied by detachment all the way from the very beginning. The relationship between `supports' and gradually progressing in learning and finally not needing those supports, does not apply to dhamma practice. If the citta is not kusala, then it must be akusala. If the understanding is wrong, then this conditions more wrong understanding. Only panna can condition more panna to arise in the future, so this moment must be with panna to assure that indeed it is being developed. So what is this initial support that you are talking about, is it at least a kusala moment, or is it clinging to a practice, hence akusala? --------------------------------------- > > Why justify by saying that the particular activity (meditation) and/or > > the `intention' for kusala, is part of the conditions which leads to the > > goal? Why not question the very idea (of meditation) formed in one's > > mind? > > H: You get too convoluted in technicalities and details. > > Think simply. > > If I spend 2 hours a day in meditation instead of 2 hours a day > watching T.V., that is good. S: It is fine that we can recognize unwholesomeness when it arises. But how we react to this reflects the level of our understanding. If we think about arranging situations and changing our lifestyle it may not be with any understanding about conditionality. It may be a kind of avoidance and not appreciating enough the fact that panna must understand this moment and any dhamma, kusala or akusala. If we think otherwise, then this is wrong view, which is the *only* real hindrance to the development of satipatthana. -------------------------------- > H: Everybody needs different things. S: Yes, but has this preference developed after any aspiration to develop the Buddha's path? If it has, then it is misunderstanding the intent of the Buddha's teachings. It has become a rite and ritual. ---------------------------------------- > > Sukinder: > > Getting to Nibbana requires that panna be accumulated enough and this > > in turns requires the paramis to be accumulated. This panna gets > > developed from understanding the present moment and the idea that > > some conventional activity must be done first and regularly, is in fact a > > movement away from *this present moment* into a conventional idea. > > That can't be a decision made by panna, in my opinion. :-/ > > H: Ah, good, at least you said "in my opinion". > I respect your opinion and in "ideal" terms I agree. S: :-) I said `in my opinion' here because, I felt at that time that I was speculating about the scope of `panna'. Actually I prefer to state my position with confidence. Not that I may not be mistaken, but I hold to my position until proven wrong, and this can happen during discussions. But until then I have no reason to have doubt, after all this is partly because I judge the other's position as wrong and feel no need to *test* that position first. Understanding dhamma is not about trial and error experience. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I have run out of time. But will send this part out first and respond to the rest later. Metta, Sukinder 42422 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > S: In abhidhamma language, satipatthana can arise and be > > aware of the characterisitic of dosa, domanassa or any other state > which > > has just fallen away. > kel: well that's the key here, it has to fall away to give a > chance for sati to arise. But if dosa is strong then it surely > won't give way. …. S: I know what you mean conventionally speaking, but in truth every dhamma falls away in rapid succession. It seems there’s a long bout of dosa, when one sprains one’s ankle, for example, but that’s because there’s no awareness of the seeing, hearing, bodily experience and so on and we’re lost in ‘the ocean of concepts’. No matter how much dosa, it’s no limit to the development of satipatthana at any moment. Only ignorance and wrong view in particular limit its arising.Jon’s written more on this recently #41033 and RobK in #42362. When there is the idea ‘by means of this would that I may be otherwise’ as Rob quoted, the attachment takes one away from the middle path again. As Jon also wrote in an earlier post: “In the meantime, however, none of us are in a retreat, so there is no point in thinking ‘if only’ or ‘when I eventually…’……if we really think we’d be better off being somewhere else or doing something else then such thoughts are going to keep arising and distracting us from the task at hand, the development of insight in our present circumstances/situation. On the other hand, the less we see our present situation as a handicap, the better chance we have of actually applying what we have heard, reflected on and properly understood’. In the same way, let’s not see any presently arisen dhamma as a handicap, but as an opportunity for awareness to be aware. …. >However if sati has been continous and strong > before dosa arose then surely sati can quickly interrupt dosa, call > it momentum. And the amount of kusala is directly proportional to > strength of sati. …. S: Well yes, because sati arises with all kusala. Having confidence in its ability to arise at any present moment will indeed be a condition for more kusala to arise. … >I still don't see how dosa is better. … S: No suggestion by me (or anyone else) that dosa is ever better… Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. When there’s awareness of dosa, it’s kusala and precious. … >We can > only cut our losses by using it as an object AFTER its power is > reduced. You remember 4 ways of training kusala/akusala I'm sure. > Why would Buddha also encourage that? …. S: He helped us to appreciate the value of all kusala and the disadvantage of all akusala. No question about it. … > > S: Rather than trying now to analyse past states which cannot > (now) be > > known, > Kel: actually I disagree, full sati always remember perfectly. …. S: When we read about insight and presently arisen dhammas, why do you think that past states are not included? Of course, there can be wise reflection with sati about past states, but not satipatthana. Usually remembering refers to the remembering to be mindful or kusala at the presnt moment as a function of sati, I believe. …. > > > S: giving a common example of dosa and domanassa following > unpleasant bodily > > feelings and suggesting that sati can be aware at any time and of > any dhamma. > Kel: yea and we just discussed how this statement isn't true. > It's not "any time" with presence of domanassa. …. S: Any time it arises, its characteristic can be directly known as ‘present object’. The fact that strictly speaking the akusala citta has just fallen away doesn’t alter this.We wouldn’t be reminded throughout the Tipitaka to be aware of kusala AND akusala states if the latter could never be known. ... >When > there's full and uninterrupted sati, how can there be any akusala? … S: There’s never ‘full and interrupted sati’. …. > Subtleness could be defined as how quickly sati arise again after > being interrupted by akusala. If it's just one akusala vithi then > surely it's very fast. Then the following sati might or might not > know of getting interrupted. Actually it's pretty hard to detect > rise and fall of the same type of citta in a row but different types > are a cinch. …. S: Isn’t this just thinking about sati? …. > Kel: Why is there kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana > and dhammanupassana? If you can hold onto vedana cetasika fully, > the whole field of mind and matter can be experienced and > understood. Same thing with using the whole citta as anchor and all … S:4 ‘foundations’ of satipatthana, but no rule about what appears or can be the object of sati at any time. No self or way to ‘hold onto vedana’ or any other dhamma. …. > 52 cetasikas with mind-based rupa. Likewise for kaya and dhamma. 5 > Khandas are just one mode of exposition. Why is it called Namarupa- > pariccheda-Nana and not refer specifically as 5 khandas? I hope you > aren't going to tell me one has to penetrate everything through all > 6 mind-doors before panna can arise. …. ;-) Distinguishing namas and rupas is the first stage and this can only be developed by being aware and knowing namas and rupas though 6 doors. Why did the Buddha talk about knowing the all through all doors instead of saying, take your pick? … > Kel: By your logic Bodhisattas would become ariyans prematurely > because they already reached sankharupekkha-nana. And that nana > already requires pretty deep understanding of anatta right? …. S: Yes. Can you give me a reference to the Bodhisattas as having attained this ~nana. I’m interested in where you get this. I’m familiar with the description in vism XX1,61. At this stage of insight, clearly the ti-lakkhana of all conditioned dhammas has been realized, thus the equanimity with regard to these dhammas. In fact it is this knowledge that leads to enlightenment. …. >Just > because the mind can see phenomenon doesn't mean it'll fully > understand to the point of relinquishing. I just said it's easier > for such a calm mind to see it clearly, nothing about understanding. … S: I think we have different definitions of ‘seeing clearly’ then. Kel, you raise so many interesting points – each one could be a thread. I’ve had to skip through some. As I said, we’re only just beginning and there’s a lot to discuss. Please be patient with my slow responses. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your reply to Tonia and the fifth precept. Also your one to Joop on the ti-lakkana #41078- Excellent points. Also following yr discussions with RobM with interest. ======== 42423 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun Hi Sarah, Sarah: Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta on Fire)in this connection? Could even arahants see flames which have been extinguished? James: The Buddha is using a metaphor in this connection and it isn't supposed to be taken literally. A flame is a conditioned phenomenon while nibbana is unconditioned; I'm sure you would agree with me on that point ;-). What should be given more attention in this sutta is the Buddha's explanation: "Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... Any consciousness" In other words, you cannot put conditions on that which is unconditioned. Metta, James 42424 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Introduction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Off-list, I have been asked to give a brief "self-introduction"here > as I disappeared for a while and there are many new members. Hallo RobM You were too modest: Forgot to mention that you have made a clear ebook about Abidhamma, which can be found in "Files" in the Menu-bars ('Theory behind Buddha's Smile.pdf'). And you forgot to mention your promise (more or less) some months ago to write some articles about Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent Origination. Metta Joop 42425 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:43am Subject: Re: Subtle akusala Dear Kel, Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known." Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I think this is important, craving is part of the wheel. Usually we misperceive it as "my" craving. But craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true characteristic can be seen. We can be idealistic and feel that every living moment should be devoted to kusala. But dhammas arise by conditions: akusala such as desire and aversion and ignorance have been accumulated (ayuhana) for countless lives and so they must arise- there is no self who can stop them. Learning about the teachings means that there will be gradually less tendency to misinterpret them as "MY akusala" - then they can be known as they are. If we try to force understanding or kusala this is because of an idea of a subtle self who can control. Understanding has its own timeframe in which to develop and patience is the first parami. Patience: so that one can face the present moment as it is now - rather than trying to make it how we think it should be. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi RobertK, > > > A key difference between samatha bhavana and vipassaana is that > > samatha correctly supresses lobha while vipassana eliminates > > ignorance. > Kel: I feel like this kinda statement is made unequivocally on > DSG. Also the word "suppress" make it sound like samatha is doing > something special when it's not. The mind is serial as we all know > from Abhidhamma. As long as kusala can be held onto, there cannot > be any akusala by definition. Momentary concentration of vipassana- > bhavana uses the same process to reach enlightenment. As a note, > during kusala there's no such things as even subtle akusala. It is > only after fall of kusala, there can arise any akusala subtle or > otherwise. Seems to me with what Buddha taught, the more kusala > there is the better. > > > Thus vipassana bhavana is not so much trying to stop any > > defilements -including subtle clinging and mana - as of > > understanding them. Panna understands kilesa (as well as other > > dhammas) and this also leads to a turning away from akusala; but > > very gradually. By the development of understanding the causes > > for all types of akusala are better understood - and too, the > > nature of akusala. The final eradication of kilesa comes about > > once dhammas are fully understood. > Kel: As I replied to Sarah, this position seem to state akusala > cittas are better in the following scenario. Let's take someone who > knows kusala cittas or states very well (perhaps reached jhana). > Then they would need akusala cittas to arise to understand akusala's > nature? Only when enough akusala arise they will reach > enlightenment? Seems to me tilakkanas can be observed with any > phenomena and nature of nama/rupa can be fully understood with one. > > > Iggleden writes (Intro. to Abhidhamma Vibhanga PTS) > > p.xliv "what is the definition of a bad state? How can it be > > recognised, not just the obvious ones but those that are really > > subtle, deep, complicated and hidden from view? This is where > > adequate study as well as practice is absolutely > > essential" > Kel: Right, you see these really subtle ones when your mind is > mostly a stream of kusala and very calm. Then there's this slight > wobble and change whenever akusala arise which is very obvious given > the background is kusala. Basically the contrast is very high at > that point even for the really subtle akusala. Because sati is so > strong it notices automatically and akusala doesn't have a chance to > gain strength. There can even be sati of potential arising of > akusala and by noting that it doesn't get a chance to arise. > > - kel 42426 From: Philip Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: Subtle akusala Hi Robert K and all > We can be idealistic and feel that every living moment should be > devoted to kusala. But dhammas arise by conditions: akusala such as > desire and aversion and ignorance have been accumulated (ayuhana) for > countless lives and so they must arise- there is no self who can > stop them. Learning about the teachings means that there will be > gradually less tendency to misinterpret them as "MY akusala" - then > they can be known as they are. If we try to force understanding or > kusala this is because of an idea of a subtle self who can control. > Understanding has its own timeframe in which to develop and patience > is the first parami. > Patience: so that one > can face the present moment as it is now - rather than trying > to make it how we think it should be. Thanks for this very lucid post, Rob. I had never thought of the word idealism in relation to wrong view before, but I can see that that is where it belongs. Which isn't to say that right view is pessimistic, or fatalistic - just realisitc about how gradually wholesome change will come, and how adulterated (with akusala) kusala will always be - until we reach the highest stages of enlightenment. (Not literally adulterated, I guess, since kusala and akusala don't co-exist in a single mental moment.) Metta, Phil 42427 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:09am Subject: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Dear Ken H, Robert K, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Mike, Rob M, Hugo, Tonia, and all How are you? Ken wrote: "In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there are no drinkers and there are no intoxicating liquors. There are, however, conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). When there are conditions for unwholesome (akusala) nama to arise, akusala nama will arise, and there is no controlling self (no living being) who can stop it. Understanding this, a Dhamma student would never take a vow to keep the precepts." The above position, to the extent that it undermines taking a vow to keep the precepts, has veered towards an extreme view that contradicts Abhidhamma Pitaka. Pa.t.thaana, the seventh book of Abhidhamma Pitaka, teaches the following seven among the twenty-four causes: adhipatipaccayo, aasevanapaccayo, kammapaccayo, aahaarapaccayo, indriyapaccayo, jhaanapaccayo, maggapaccayo. These seven causes directly relate to the habit formation of healthy actions or unhealthy actions one way or another. We should not use the personlessness teachings of Abhidhamma to undermine or downplay the importance of taking a vow to keep precepts. Abhidhamma Pitaka makes it possible for a Buddhist practitioner to be able to keep the precepts in even deeper, higher, more genuine, more meaningful, and more thoughtful ways. Tonia, please bear with the Pali Abhidhamma technical terms for the time being. The people addressed above and others can explain those terms later. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi Tonia, Welcome to DSG. In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there are no drinkers and there are no intoxicating liquors. There are, however, conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). When there are conditions for unwholesome (akusala) nama to arise, akusala nama will arise, and there is no controlling self (no living being) who can stop it. Understanding this, a Dhamma student would never take a vow to keep the precepts. As worldlings, you and I have not eradicated the conditions that cause akusala nama to arise. We may, for example, be tee-totalers now, but, in the future (near or distant), we will almost certainly break the fifth precept. Only after Stream-entry (the first stage of enlightenment) will some of those conditions be permanently eradicated. There will still be no controlling self, but there will be no possibility of breaking any of the five precepts. Ken H 42428 From: tonia Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:00am Subject: end fifth precept question + 2 more Kel, Nina, Rob, and Ken: Thank you all so much for the answers to my question. I can understand clearly now why this is a precept. I appreciate the time you've taken to offer your opinions. Now for questions 2 and 3 :) 1. Is there anywhere that I can get a pronunciation guide (or better yet, sound files) for the Pali words? I feel as though I'm mispronouncing several of them. 2. Nina, you spoke of the Vinaya. Where can I get a printed copy of some of the more common scriptures? I've found a few places that have the text online, but I understand so much better if I have a book in front of me :) Hope these are easier than the first! :) Tonia 42429 From: tonia Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:03am Subject: other groups Hugo, > I have learned a lot here, but as with the books and the authors, I > would recommend to keep an eye on other groups too. T: You mentioned to keep an eye on some other groups as well. What other groups have you found that are good? Thanks, Tonia 42430 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept ... Hi, Suan (and all) - Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/17/05 10:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Ken H, Robert K, Nina, Sarah, Christine, Mike, Rob M, Hugo, > Tonia, and all > > How are you? > > Ken wrote: > > "In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there are no drinkers > and there are no intoxicating liquors. There are, however, > conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). When > there are conditions for unwholesome (akusala) nama to arise, > akusala nama will arise, and there is no controlling self (no living > being) who can stop it. Understanding this, a Dhamma student would > never take a vow to keep the precepts." > > The above position, to the extent that it undermines taking a vow to > keep the precepts, has veered towards an extreme view that > contradicts Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > Pa.t.thaana, the seventh book of Abhidhamma Pitaka, teaches the > following seven among the twenty-four causes: adhipatipaccayo, > aasevanapaccayo, kammapaccayo, aahaarapaccayo, indriyapaccayo, > jhaanapaccayo, maggapaccayo. These seven causes directly relate to > the habit formation of healthy actions or unhealthy actions one way > or another. > > We should not use the personlessness teachings of Abhidhamma to > undermine or downplay the importance of taking a vow to keep > precepts. > > Abhidhamma Pitaka makes it possible for a Buddhist practitioner to > be able to keep the precepts in even deeper, higher, more genuine, > more meaningful, and more thoughtful ways. > > Tonia, please bear with the Pali Abhidhamma technical terms for the > time being. The people addressed above and others can explain those > terms later. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > www.bodhiology.org /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42431 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:58am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta > on Fire)in this connection? > Could even arahants see flames which have been extinguished? > > James: The Buddha is using a metaphor in this connection and it > isn't supposed to be taken literally. A flame is a conditioned > phenomenon while nibbana is unconditioned; I'm sure you would agree > with me on that point ;-). What should be given more attention in > this sutta is the Buddha's explanation: > > "Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is > deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't > apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' > doesn't apply. > "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... Any > consciousness" > > In other words, you cannot put conditions on that which is > unconditioned. > > Metta, > James ------------------------------ Hi James (and Sarah), This Aggivacchagotta Sutta, in my opinion, gives the most specific answer about the Buddha State and Nibbana. Thank you, James, for shedding a bright light on this difficult subject on the relationship between the Tathagata , Citta and Nibbana. Warm regards, Tep =========== 42432 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:40am Subject: Descriptive training from The Buddha, support for my "experiments" Hello Tep, Phil, James, Howard, Sarah, Jon, Rob (all of them), Sukinder, and everyone else, I just found this Sutta, which seems to support my "experiments" :-) Digha Nikaya 21 Sakka-pañha Sutta Sakka's Questions "And how has he practiced, dear sir: the monk who has practiced the practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions & categories of complication?" "Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. "'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of grief is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of grief is to be pursued. And this sort of grief may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "This is how he has practiced, deva-king: the monk who has practiced the practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions & categories of complication." Thus the Blessed One answered, having been asked by Sakka the deva-king. Gratified, Sakka was delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words: "So it is, O Blessed One. So it is, O One Well-gone. Hearing the Blessed One's answer to my question, my doubt is now cut off, my perplexity is overcome." Then Sakka, having delighted in & expressed his approval of the Blessed One's words, asked him a further question: "But how has he practiced, dear sir: the monk who has practiced for restraint in the Patimokkha?" "Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Verbal conduct is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Searching is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. "'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of bodily conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of bodily conduct is to be pursued. 'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of verbal conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of verbal conduct is to be pursued. 'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Searching is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a search, 'As I pursue this search, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of search is not to be pursued. When one knows of a search, 'As I pursue this search, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of search is to be pursued. 'Searching is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "This is how has he practiced, deva-king: the monk who has practiced the practice for restraint in the Patimokkha." http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn21.html So stop "waiting" and start "working"!!! :-) -- Hugo 42433 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 125 - /manasikaara , whatsoevers Hi Rob M, op 17-02-2005 09:13 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > The Dhammasangani (1st book of the Abhihdhamma), opens with an open- > ended list of cetasikas found in wholesome cittas. The list matches > quite well with the close-ended list from the Abhidhammatthasangaha > (with a couple of interesting twists), but the Dhammasangani list > does not include manasikara. N: I wrote about it in the Vis. series , XIV, 133, and I shall quote (you were not here). It is among the four and whatsoevers, yevapannaka. Vis. XIV, 133, Note 59 (taken from Tiika): Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) N: The list of the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. There are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). These are mentioned in the Anupada sutta (M. N. no 111). The Expositor (p. 174, 175) deals with these, but includes also the five cetasikas which do not arise with every kusala citta, thus it classifies the supplementary factors as ninefold. The Visuddhimagga enumerates first twentyseven cetasikas and then adds the four supplementary facors, thus together these are thirty-one cetasikas included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha that accompany the first type of mahaa-kusala citta that is associated with paññaa.... N: the Tiika states: that have been handed down in the text just as such (paa.liyaa saruupeneva aagataa). Only these are enumerated in the Dhammasangani, but there are others, namely the supplementary factors. That is why the Dhammasangani states after the enumeration: ŒOr whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen dhammas there are too on that occasion'. The Expositor (p. 178) mentions someone who says: an unintelligent list, no connection or order. The Co refutes this. It is not a mere formal grouping, or a rigid classification. When taking up the Dhammasangani we shall see that several cetasikas are listed more than once under different aspects, such as understanding as faculty, or as power. The list ends with: sampajañña (sati and pañña), samatha, vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is the faculty of energy), avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word for ekaggata cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration). Thus, it is not a mere summing up, but it points to development, it is a dynamic list. Therefore, it does not need to be exhaustive. Ven. Nyanaponika (in Abhidhamma Studies) states : N: If we understand this, it will help with our study of the Abhidhamma, also with other topics. These lists have to do with life, with development. They point to the goal. The Pentad of phassa (phassa-pañcaka), mentioned in the Expositor: these are the first five of the list of the Dhammasangani: contact, feeling, saññaa, volition and citta. These five are mentioned together with the or-whatever-dhammas in the Anupada sutta, after the jhana-factors, where Sariputta penetrates with insight the jhana-citta and cetasikas. Ven. Nyanaponika: He states about the aggregate of mental formations: Thus, phassa and cetanaa. He explains that this points to the inseparableness of the four nama-khandhas. All this illustrates the meaning of the list, it points to the goal of our study, the development of pañña in order to attain liberation. This is inspiring.> Nina. 42434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] object condition and Connie's quote. Hi Howard and Larry, op 17-02-2005 03:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> Larry: >> Now, Nina uses the expression "citta experiences its object". My >> contention is that citta does not experience its object. Simply, regret >> does not experience anger, but regret is an experience. > Howard: > I think that when regret arises, it is not a disembodied regret. It is > a regret *about* something. Nina: Right, it has an object it regrets. Larry says: regret is an experience, and when there is an experience (nama) it is always an experience of something, of an object. An experience is not like dead matter that does not know anything. It is not rupa. H: And I don't think that this regret occupies a single mind moment. I don't think that what we usually mean by regret is a paramattha dhamma. I believe that there is anger, and then, in some order, sadness, then some thinking.... I think this whole process is what "regret" is about. > In fact, more generally, I think that most of what we think are single mindstates are actually complex psychophysical processes consisting of a multitude of related mindstates. N: Right. There are many different cittas arising in different processes. In conventional language we can speak of regret, but actually there are many processes going on. The cetasika regret, kukkucca, is accompanying citta, it is a paramattha dhamma. H: Abhidhamma states that each single mindstate involves the presence of > a primary content called "the object" plus a multitude of operations > pertaining to and dealing with that object.... I simply don't know > whether all mindstates have objects, or whether there might not be some that > do not. N: I quote from Cetasikas (Ch 6), it may be of interest. H: I even have some doubts about mindstates themselves, if they are to be > thought of as (near-) instantaneous, because I believe that for a cetasika to > be operative *it takes time*! N: It takes the same time as the citta it accompanies, extremely fast. H: Of course, later commentary did allow for arising, maintaining, and declining phases to a mindstate, which already backs away from instantaneousness. N: Faster than fast, no problem, it is still instantaneous. Here is a sutta. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes (III, 5, §47) Conditioned (sankhata): < Monks, there are three condition-marks of that which is condiitoned. What three? Its genesis (upada) is apparent, its passing away (vaya) is apparent, its changeability while it persists (jaraa) is apparent....> The Co. elaborates that of what is conditioned (sankhata), upada appears when it arises, jaraa (decay) appears when it persists and vaya when it falls away. The following sutta deals with asankata, nibbaana. Nina. 42435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James and Phil, I enjoy reading your dialogue. The passage quoted by James is one of my favorite ones. Nina. op 17-02-2005 04:28 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Further, when that > highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are > reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the > king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is > reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point > out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this > way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness > is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining > one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. 42436 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanti and "setting up" mindfulness. Hello Phil, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:35:57 -0000, Philip wrote: > Yes, there is the "wisdom" that life experience brings us, whether > we follow Dhamma are not. The kind of wisdom that applies in that old > chestnut about give me the patience to bear what I must, the strngth > to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. That kind > of wisdom is valuable, for sure. I would guess that if it is Wisdom, it is Dhamma, but let'st not get into those technicalities, which only help create arguments and pointing to books, because unless we are wise we can't be sure of it. > But I've come to feel lately - just > beginnning to understand- that panna is not this kind of wisdom. > Panna penetrates and sees into realities. It is panna that will begin > to help us extricate ourselves from clinging, if it is cultivated. It > is very powerful, but also relatively rare. I agree! > On the other hand, yes, there is much to be gained from gaining > access to a more conventional kind of wisdom through the Buddha's > teaching. Learning what is good for us and bad for us, what makes us > suffer more and what makes us suffer less. But this conventional kind > of wisdom doesn't penetrate and won't lead us to ultimate liberation. > These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. mmmm....it all depends on how you define "lead us to". If you mean that it is not the "only tool" or the last few steps of the path, then I agree. But if you say that it is not one of the many tools needed, or if you say that we should not do it because it is not part of the Path, then I disagree. In other words, do you expect to "get" pañña just like "Puff!" without having "worldly wisdom"? How do you teach stuff to your students? Don't you do it in a gradual way? Aren't the Buddha's teachings gradual? I am not sure what was your conclusion regarding your current practice of doing the Metta meditation before going to work, are you planning to keep doing it or not? Also, take a look at the Sutta I posted a few minutes ago. Greetings, -- Hugo 42437 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something orjust "observe with wisdom"? Hello Charles, On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:04:45 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > I miss all the dialog, but why are you feeling self-conscious? Sorry, I couldn't understand your question, I can't translate "self-conscious". I still have many messages to read, I think that there is one (a big one) from Nina, I eventually will get to them. -- Hugo 42438 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new to the group Hello Naresh, On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:21:36 -0800 (PST), naresh gurwani wrote: > I was watchingyour conversation, if u can help me out > how one can dedicate for meditating does this mean > watching in & out breath ?? First things first, I am not a meditation teacher, hey, I haven't even reached 1st. Jhana (if you are into Jhana meditation), and I haven't seen anything come together and pass away (if you are into Vipassana). All I can do is point you to some documents, but I am far from being able to do anything more than that. Perhaps other members of the list might be able to help you better. Besides the instructions described in the Suttas, you can try: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl115.html http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html In one of the meditations sessions, my teacher said something like: "it is fine to try different methods of meditation, but don't be jumping from one to another too quickly". Greetings, -- Hugo 42439 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something orjust "observe with wisdom"? you posted the Idea of quitting because ... ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugo To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 17 February, 2005 21:03 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something orjust "observe with wisdom"? Hello Charles, On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:04:45 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > I miss all the dialog, but why are you feeling self-conscious? Sorry, I couldn't understand your question, I can't translate "self-conscious". I still have many messages to read, I think that there is one (a big one) from Nina, I eventually will get to them. -- Hugo 42440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] end fifth precept question + 2 more Hi Tonia, I use the PTS editions, Pali Text Society. I ordered them from England, but they can also be ordered in U.S. It is best to ask first a catalogue and if you become a member you get them reduced in price. For the address in USA I do not know, but maybe Google could help you? Nina. op 17-02-2005 17:00 schreef tonia op magical.muse@g...: > 2. Nina, you spoke of the Vinaya. Where can I get a printed copy of > some of the more common scriptures? I've found a few places that have > the text online, but I understand so much better if I have a book in > front of me :) 42441 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] object condition and Connie's quote. Hi, Nina - Thank you for a very helpful post. (No further comments below.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/17/05 2:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi Howard and Larry, > op 17-02-2005 03:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >> > Larry: > >>Now, Nina uses the expression "citta experiences its object". My > >>contention is that citta does not experience its object. Simply, regret > >>does not experience anger, but regret is an experience. > >Howard: > >I think that when regret arises, it is not a disembodied regret. It is > >a regret *about* something. > Nina: Right, it has an object it regrets. Larry says: regret is an > experience, and when there is an experience (nama) it is always an > experience of something, of an object. An experience is not like dead matter > that does not know anything. It is not rupa. > > H: And I don't think that this regret occupies a single mind moment. I don't > think that what we usually mean by regret is a paramattha dhamma. I believe > that there is anger, and then, in some order, sadness, then some > thinking.... I think this whole process is what "regret" is about. > >In fact, more generally, I think that most of what we think are single > mindstates are actually complex psychophysical processes consisting of a > multitude of related mindstates. > N: Right. There are many different cittas arising in different processes. In > conventional language we can speak of regret, but actually there are many > processes going on. The cetasika regret, kukkucca, is accompanying citta, it > is a paramattha dhamma. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42442 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hello Christine, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:15:56 -0000, Christine Forsyth wrote: > Could you point me in the direction of the suttas where the Buddha > said 'everything is non-self' as opposed to 'there is no self'? I Sabbe dhamma anatta. Hey!, I know it even in Pali! (see? chanting has its benefits!) :-) Dhammapada verse 279 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/20.html http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/dhammapada20.html BTW, my teacher also told me something like: "The Buddha didn't say there is no 'self', he said that there is no PERMANENT 'self'". Greetings, -- Hugo 42443 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hello KenH, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:43:58 -0000, kenhowardau wrote: > I know you wouldn't do it intentionally. However, when we *try* > to understand something that is beyond our present understanding, > aren't we bound to alter its meaning? Don't we introduce our own > preconceptions into the teaching? Yes, as long as the defilements are present, we can't avoid doing that. > ------------------------ > H: > But I agree that "doing" this technique means that you > are "using" a self. > And I agree, there is self, attachment and aversion in that > practice. > > ------------------------- > > I am genuinely unsure of what is happening here. Are you agreeing > with me that "trying" is not the Middle Way?" No, I don't agree, but I don't disagree either because I don't know what is The Middle Way. It seems that you know what is the Middle Way, I don't. > And are you agreeing > that the technique of watching one's own behaviour patterns (in > order to develop tranquillity and insight) is motivated by self- > interest and therefore not what the Buddha taught? After reading this: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn21.html It looks to me that The Buddha encouraged people to watch one's own behaviour patters: "'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of verbal conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of verbal conduct is to be pursued. 'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. Also, the instructions to Rahula are exactly that: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html "Whenever you want to perform a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then any verbal act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then any verbal act of that sort is fit for you to do. "While you are performing a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I am doing -- is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it. "Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities. What are you guys seeing that I don't? Now I am really, really shocked! -- Hugo 42444 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something orjust "observe with wisdom"? Hello Charles, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:19:28 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > > you posted the Idea of quitting because ... Because I think that I need to stop talking for a while. It is just a matter of my personal preference in regards of my practice. -- Hugo 42445 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 0:58pm Subject: Christine [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Christine, I am sorry, I can't help you with suttra references. I can't recall suttras (I have not looked at them in a very long time), and nomatter what is published, if it contradicts another's view they will always fall back on the claim: "poor translation". I don't know pali, nor do I care to. So I rely on logic at that point -- sometimes I will contradict the Buddha. If you are trying to win an argument/prove a point, you have to rely on logic (this is the Buddhist way). The idea of "non-self' as opposed to 'there is no self'" is more of a translation problem, and I have herd both from different teachers. Personally: The self, the ego, and the 5 aggregates tend to be synonymous. The idea of "...self" is more related to the concept of an essence that is unchanging and not compounded (i.e., the view of an eternal unchanging soul). This was a common belief in the Buddha's day, and it was one of beliefs he was arguing against. The other was "nothing". So you have to have a balance between the two (this was one of the original middle paths). Whenever you accept that you are an ever changing compounded entity, then you exist (as that), however your existence is relative, not Absolute. Charles PS: I like your linked post idea. That is why I use to maintain the whole thread in my posts, (I would not touch any of the original messages), it made it easy to refer back to them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 17 February, 2005 01:15 Subject: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hello Charles, Your last two posts link to a post made three weeks ago by James, who doesn't appear to be the person (Sarah in one of the posts) you are replying to. As this is a very busy discussion list with 503 members and a torrent of posts daily, it is generally helpful if a link can be given to the actual message one is responding to, or include a salutation, a small snippet of the original post, and a signature - so people can follow the main points being politely discussed. Could you point me in the direction of the suttas where the Buddha said 'everything is non-self' as opposed to 'there is no self'? I would really appreciate this clarification. Thanks in advance, metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Good analysis: > Hi Sarah, > > Of course I knew that your question wasn't an open question. It was > a leading question which supports your particular point of view. We > have covered this ground so many times that it is getting too > redundant to get into a deep analysis. Let me just summarize: You > hold the view: "There is No Self" while I hold the view "Everything > is Non-Self". It may not seem to be a big difference but this > difference in viewpoint will translate into a difference in > practices. Your practice is passive while mine is active. Your > practice is text-centered while my practice is experience- centered. > Your practice attempts to begin at the supermundane while mine > begins at the mundane. If your practice works for you, fine. Good > luck. 42446 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:09pm Subject: Hugo You posted: > Maybe I should join other mailing lists for beginners, I am starting > to suspect that I am just making you all waste your time. I apologize > for that. To me, "I am starting to suspect that I am just making you all waste your time. I apologize for that." sounds like you are feeling insecure about the situation. This is considered self-conscious -- fear of making a mistake. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugo To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 17 February, 2005 21:57 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something orjust "observe with wisdom"? Hello Charles, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:19:28 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > > you posted the Idea of quitting because ... Because I think that I need to stop talking for a while. It is just a matter of my personal preference in regards of my practice. -- Hugo 42447 From: Carl Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Carl: Hi Kel, Ken H, and Rob M, Thanks for your replies to my dilemma concerning the notion of "desireable/undesirable" as being an intrinsic quality of Rupus. I believe I have been rescued from drifting hoplessly into the fog of Christianity :-) I enjoyed very much the informative posts you have given me, and also the many other posts on this same subject. I have done much pondering :) My intentions are not to maintain a personal viewpoint, but to actually aquire a deeper (..OH MY!.. it sure gets deep :-0 ) and deeper understanding of the Abhidamma. So I'm always leaning towards accepting the views of those teaching and practicing Thervadian Buddhism as presented here at DSG. I understand now that "desireable/undesirable" in reference to rupas (sense rupas)is the Abhidhamma view. I did not appreciate that fact until now. Any remaining misunderstandings or misgivings I may still harbor will be placed on the back burner for consideration at a later time. Actually, in a recent post(below) on this subject between Larry and Nina, Larry said:, >>Larry>....(snip)...The object is not kamma resultant or necessarily kamma produced, but in order for kamma to come to fruition an appropriate object must arise for the kamma resultant consciousness. ....(snip).... ===================== Carl: I don't know why, but I find this statement of Larrys to be very satisfying and comfortable. It seems to lay to rest my intitial misgivings about "desireable/undesirable" nature of rupus. It does provide an answer, but it does provide me a feel-good understading of some sort.. Something along the lines of; How can we (in sensual plane ) expect to experience anything other than that leading to kamma fruition?. I'm not at all sure what i'm talking about. But something here just feels right. Thank you all Carl ===================================================================== = From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 8, 2005 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Hi Howard and Larry, op 08-02-2005 02:39 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Larry:>> First, this classification of desirable and undesirable objects only >> applies to objects of kamma resultant cittas. >N: Considering the sense-cognitions that are results of either kusala kamma >or akusala kamma helps us to have more understanding of the fact that >objects are either desirable or undesirable. But it is not so that they are >objects only of resultants. There is a whole process of cittas and all these >cittas experience the same desirable or undesirable object. Also the >kiriyacitta that is votthapanacitta and is followed by kusala cittas or >akusala cittas which still experience that same object. >>L: The object is not kamma resultant or necessarily kamma produced, but in >> order for kamma to come to fruition an appropriate object must arise for >> the kamma resultant consciousness. >N: Yes. Except in the case of the last javanacittas in life that experience >a pleasant or unpleasant object conditioned by kamma. ....... (snip)....... >....Nina ================================================================= 42448 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Christine [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi, Charles (and Christine) - In a message dated 2/17/05 4:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: > If you are trying to win an argument/prove a point, you have to rely on > logic (this is the Buddhist way). > ======================= There are limits to everything, Charles. The following is from the Kalama Sutta: "Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference ... " I stopped with "inference". Our logic is no better than the presumptions it is applied to, and, moreover, our usual informal inference is typically sloppy, with unrealized presumptions and invalid deduction rules, and driven by desire and aversion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42449 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:29pm Subject: Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Hi Suan. I am well, thank you for asking, and I hope you are too. You wrote: ---------------------- > The above position, to the extent that it undermines taking a vow to keep the precepts, has veered towards an extreme view that contradicts Abhidhamma Pitaka. > ---------------------- This comes as a surprise to me. I was aware that formal meditation was a controversial subject, but I thought we were pretty unanimous on vow taking. I have always thought it was one of the things that distinguished even popular Buddhism from Christianity - "Christians take vows: Buddhists don't." ------------------- S: > Pa.t.thaana, the seventh book of Abhidhamma Pitaka, teaches the following seven among the twenty-four causes: adhipatipaccayo, aasevanapaccayo, kammapaccayo, aahaarapaccayo, indriyapaccayo, jhaanapaccayo, maggapaccayo. These seven causes directly relate to the habit formation of healthy actions or unhealthy actions one way or another. -------------------- I am aware of that (apart from the technicalities), but we would seem to understand it differently. If, for example, I vow never again to be weak or self-centred or inconsiderate, wouldn't that demonstrate unrealistic superficiality and hypocrisy? What sort of habit would I be developing? I admit that is an extreme example: the five precepts cover gross wrongdoings that are relatively easy to avoid. But how could we be sure we would never find ourselves compelled to kill, for example (not just an insect but even a human being)? I was suggesting to Tonia that a worldling's vow to keep the precepts demonstrated wrong view - a denial of conditionality. Perhaps that was a bit excessive, but it still seems logical to me. -------------------------- S: > We should not use the personlessness teachings of Abhidhamma to undermine or downplay the importance of taking a vow to keep precepts. -------------------------- The most famous vow is that of the Bodhisatta, but it is taken in a moment of tremendous panna which knows beyond doubt that the conditions will be there for the vow to be fulfilled. Apart from that, please explain how taking a vow changes anything for the better. ------------ S: > Abhidhamma Pitaka makes it possible for a Buddhist practitioner to be able to keep the precepts in even deeper, higher, more genuine, more meaningful, and more thoughtful ways. ------------ My sentiments exactly, but it is a matter of understanding, not of vow taking. Ken H 42450 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Hugo & Sukinder 1 Hello Sukinder, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:02:00 -0000, Sukinder wrote: > I have run out of time. Me too. > But will send this part out first and respond to the rest later. No need to send further respond Sukinder, I really appreciate the time you took in writing all you wrote and I am thankful for that, but I don't have any more energy left to keep this discussion going. Greetings, -- Hugo 42451 From: Hugo Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun Dear Sarah, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:52:37 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Hugo, James & all, > > Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To Vacchagotta on Fire)? No, but as I said, all we can talk about that is mere speculation, I don't see any value on discussing those things we can't immediately verify, nor are useful for us in the immediate, nor near future. But thanks anyway for mentioning this Sutta. > p.s Hugo, you misunderstood a comment I made about 'I'd prefer to...';-) > Not a form of practice and not obsrving what I can at the present moment > as you interpreted it....anatta, remember!! Ok, if you say that what you decide to do is not a form of practice, so be it. -- Hugo 42452 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: end fifth precept question + 2 more Hi Tonia --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, tonia wrote: > Kel, Nina, Rob, and Ken: > 1. Is there anywhere that I can get a pronunciation guide (or better > yet, sound files) for the Pali words? I feel as though I'm > mispronouncing several of them. > > 2. Nina, you spoke of the Vinaya. Where can I get a printed copy of > some of the more common scriptures? I've found a few places that have > the text online, but I understand so much better if I have a book in > front of me :) ===== Pali Pronouncation ================== There are a number of "Introduction to Pali" texts available on the web which give guidelines on pronouncation. However, I have found that there is some variance in pronounciation depending on the country of origin of the speaker (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma). Almost like a regional accent. You can download Pali chants and by listening while following the text, you can pick up the pronounciation rules. The website is: http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm Scriptures ========== In Theravada Buddhism, the sacred books are called Tipitaka (three baskets). All together, the Tipitaka is about eleven times the size of the Christian Bible. Theravada also has a commentarial tradition. In other words, there are "official" commentaries to almost all aspects of the Tipitaka. The first basket in the Tipitaka is the Vinaya. In the Vinaya, the Buddha used his authority to lay down rules of behaviour for monks and nuns (227 rules for monks, 311 rules for nuns). There is a very readable version of the Vinaya at the "Access To Insight" website. There are numerous printed versions from various sources; they do not vary much. The "official" Vinaya texts, complete with the origin of each rule, multiple examples of possible / actual infractions of each rule and guidelines on how to interpret each of the rules, is available from Pali Text Society. Tonia, my advice is that this should probably be pretty far down your reading list. The second basket in the Tipitaka is the Suttas. These are the recorded speeches of the Buddha. They often start with the phrase, "Thus have I heard..." The Buddha used everyday, conversational language in the Suttas, depending on the audience to whom He was speaking. The Suttas are grouped into five collections (Nikayas in Pali): - Diga Nikaya (34 long discourses) - Majjhima Nikaya (152 medium-length discourses) - Samyutta Nikaya (7762 short discourses grouped according to various themes) - Anguttara Nikaya (9557 short discourses grouped according to numbers; the ones, the twos, etc,) - Khuddaka Nikaya (a very large collection of other texts) The "Access To Insight" website has more than 900 Suttas with minimal footnotes. The Pali Text Society has translations but most have not been updated in almost a century and are difficult to read. Fortunately, the Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) has published modern translations of almost all of the Nikayas and they are of very high quality and extremely well annotated. My advice is to start with the BPS version of Majjhima Nikaya (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, an American scholar-monk who recently retired as editor of BPS). It is about 1400 pages long and is extremely rich in content and variety. Another excellent place to start is with the Dhammapada (part of Khuddaka Nikaya); this is a "best of collected quotes of the Buddha". There are multiple versions on-line and in hard copy. My favourite versions are those which include a parable story for each of the quotes to illustrate the meanings. When my kids were younger, I used these for very short bed-time discussions. The third basket in the Tipitaka is the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma has the form of a textbook; it uses precise technical terms. I view the Suttas and the Abhidhamma as two different ways of saying the same thing. The "Access To Insight" website does not have any of the Abhidhamma texts. The original Abhidhamma texts are only available from the Pali Text Society (more recent translations than the Suttas, but still very heavy reading) and include: - Dhammasangani: Buddhist Psychological Ethics - Vibhanga: Book of Analysis - Dhatukatha: Discourse on Elements - Puggalapannatti: Designation of Human Types - Kathavatthu: Points of Controversy - Yamaka: Book of Pairs (not translated) - Patthana: Conditional Relations (partially translated) These texts should only be attempted by an intermediate student. The Abhidhamma was written down, with the rest of the Tipitaka, about 2000 years ago. About 1000 years ago, Acariya Anuruddha summarized the seven books of the Abhidhamma, together with a number of ancient commentaries into the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. This text is the starting point for the serious student of the Abhidhamma. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and commentary on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha called "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" (CMA) is an excellent reference for the serious beginner. Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA is not available on line, but there is another text covering similar material by Dr. Mehm Ton Mon called "Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science" which is also quite good and it is available for download. Having said all that, once you have finished reading Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", you may want to proceed to her, "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (available for download from the same website). Metta, Rob M :-) 42453 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Was "Introduction", Now "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > Forgot to mention that you have made a clear ebook about Abidhamma, > which can be found in "Files" in the Menu-bars ('Theory behind > Buddha's Smile.pdf'). > > And you forgot to mention your promise (more or less) some months ago > to write some articles about Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent > Origination. ===== The eBook is my class notes. I want to add another chapter covering Paticcasamuppada and I have been working on it slowly. Here is what I have so far (this is simplified and there is lots of meat still to be added): 1. Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102- 103] Ignorance = moha concomitant with 12 akusala cittas Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Ignorance conditions formations of merit through object condition and decisive support condition Ignorance conditions formations of demerit through: - Object condition - Arammanadhipati (variety of predominance condition) - Arammanupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Decisive support condition - Proximity condition - Contiguity condition - Anantarupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Repetition condition - Absence condition - Disappearance condition - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 2. Conditioned by formations, consciousness arises [see Vism XVII 177-180] Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Consciousness = 23 vipaka cittas (7 akusala vipaka + 8 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) At the time of rebirth, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 mahavipaka cittas (i.e. as bhavanga) or kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (i.e. bhavanga for disabled humans) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 12 akusala cittas conditions 7 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. --- 3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see Vism XVII 201] Consciousness = consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas + consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas + "all other consciousness" Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primary elements plus depending ones (i.e. all matter) At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions cetasikas concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions rupa through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa) - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas conditions kamma- produced rupa through decisive support condition. At the time of rebirth and during existence, other consciousness conditions namarupa through as appropriate (Vism XVII 201 states, "but since the whole contents of the Patthana must be cited in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that.") --- 4. Conditioned by nama, rupa and namarupa, the sixth base and sixfold base arise [see Vism XVII 209 - 217] Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primaries, 6 base matters, jivita and ahara Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with heart-base condition the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Result condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas condition the vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the non-vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with sense vipaka cittas (eye, ear, etc) condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the heart-base conditions the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, the 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, jivita conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Faculty condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, ahara conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Nutriment condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition mind- base associated with eye-consciousness, etc. through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the heart base conditions other mind-base through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the 52 cetasikas and heartp-base (namarupa) conditions the mindbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 5. Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See Vism XVII 227] Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, dhamma base Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye-contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions mind contact through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through object condition only. --- 6. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. [See Vism XVII 231 - 232] Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) Feeling = feeling born of eye contact, etc.; vedana concomitant with the 23 vipaka cittas (same set of cittas for which phassa is concomitant) Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana dependent on eye- base (ear-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with registration cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact concomitant with mind door conditions vendana concomitant with registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. --- 7. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. [See Vism XVII 237-238] Feeling = vipaka sukha vedana or vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, or non-vipaka vedana Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) All types of feeling (vipaka sukha vedana, vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, non-vipaka vedana) condition craving through natural decisive support condition. --- 8. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. [See Vism XVII 248] Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Craving conditions the arising of sense-desire clinging through natural decisive support condition. Craving conditions the arising of false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging and self-clinging through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Natural decisive support condition (without conascence condition) - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 9. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. [See Vism XVII 269] Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Becoming (bhava) = kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) Kamma process (kamma-bhava) = cetana and lobha, etc. concomitant with it Rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) = vipaka aggregates and kammaja-rupa Clinging conditions the arising of becoming through support condition. --- 10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises. Becoming = kamma process (kamma-bhava) only, not rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) --- 11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma and support condition. Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 42454 From: Evan Stamatopoulos Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] end fifth precept question + 2 more Tonia, What I would suggest is that you start off with the most common suttas translated most recently - ie the Wisdom Publications translations of the Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya and the Sumyatta Nikaya (Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, Long Discourses of the Buddha and Connected Discourses of the Buddha respectively) all of which you can purchase at Amazon.com. These translations are more recent and therefore easier to understand and the language flows a little better than the Pali Text Society versions. They are also less expensive. In fact, start off with the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha and if you like that you can order the rest. You can get it at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/086171072X/qid=1108678982/ sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5342087-9896127?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Kind Regards, Evan Stamatopoulos -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:vangorko@x...] Sent: Friday, 18 February 2005 7:27 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] end fifth precept question + 2 more Hi Tonia, I use the PTS editions, Pali Text Society. I ordered them from England, but they can also be ordered in U.S. It is best to ask first a catalogue and if you become a member you get them reduced in price. For the address in USA I do not know, but maybe Google could help you? Nina. op 17-02-2005 17:00 schreef tonia op magical.muse@g...: > 2. Nina, you spoke of the Vinaya. Where can I get a printed copy of > some of the more common scriptures? I've found a few places that have > the text online, but I understand so much better if I have a book in > front of me :) 42455 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 125 - /manasikaara , whatsoevers Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob M, > op 17-02-2005 09:13 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > The Dhammasangani (1st book of the Abhihdhamma), opens with an open- > > ended list of cetasikas found in wholesome cittas. The list matches > > quite well with the close-ended list from the Abhidhammatthasangaha > > (with a couple of interesting twists), but the Dhammasangani list > > does not include manasikara. > N: I wrote about it in the Vis. series , XIV, 133, and I shall quote (you > were not here). ===== ===== > N: the Tiika states: that have been handed down in the text just as such > (paa.liyaa saruupeneva aagataa). > Only these are enumerated in the Dhammasangani, but there are others, namely > the supplementary factors. That is why the Dhammasangani states after the > enumeration: ŒOr whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen dhammas > there are too on that occasion'. ===== I am very comfortable with this. ===== > > The Expositor (p. 178) mentions someone who says: an unintelligent list, no > connection or order. The Co refutes this. It is not a mere formal grouping, > or a rigid classification. When taking up the Dhammasangani we shall see > that several cetasikas are listed more than once under different aspects, > such as understanding as faculty, or as power. The list ends with: > sampajañña (sati and pañña), samatha, vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is > the faculty of energy), avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word > for ekaggata cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration). > Thus, it is not a mere summing up, but it points to development, it is a > dynamic list. > Therefore, it does not need to be exhaustive. > Ven. Nyanaponika (in Abhidhamma Studies) states : overlapping groups indicates the subtle and complicated structure of a > moment of consciousness. It shows that a psychic unit is not 'composed' of > rigid parts, arranged, as it were, in juxtaposition like a mosaic but is > rather a relational and correlational system of dynamic processes.> ===== This is excellent. This was really at the heart of my "rant" a few months ago. Those who have not read beyond the Abhidhammatthasangaha may not appreciate some of the more subtle aspects of the Abhidhamma. The compact style of the Abhidhammatthasangaha is ideal for an introductory summary text, but taken too literally it can give the impression of a "building block" approach rather than a "dynamic process" approach which is apparent in the original texts. ===== > All this illustrates the meaning of the list, it points to the goal of our > study, the development of pañña in order to attain liberation. This is > inspiring.> ===== I agree that it is very inspiring. Metta, Rob M :-) 42456 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: Subtle akusala Hi RobertK, > be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six > classes of craving should be known." > > Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I > think this is important, craving is part of the wheel. Kel: I thought we're not suppose to read suttas as prescriptions and instead descriptions only? :) As for for the wheel or D.O., isn't feeling part of it too? I think you were trying to refute my statement about six sense-doors. How about the story of 2 groups arguing over how many vedana Buddha taught: one group claims 2 and the other claims 3. They went to Buddha for clarification and he said he taught many vedana schemes: 2, 3, 6, 18, 108 and so forth. So how many types of vedanas or cravings do I need to understand for enlightenment? > We can be idealistic and feel that every living moment should be > devoted to kusala. But dhammas arise by conditions: akusala such as > desire and aversion and ignorance have been accumulated (ayuhana) for > countless lives and so they must arise Kel: There's no other idealism or goal if you're following the path. The rate of success does not in anway change the goal. If someone is frustrated or dejected due to lack of "progress" then that's their own own deficiency. Surely the fact you're born as a human into a Buddha sasana and tremendous amount of kusala required also proves something. > Understanding has its own timeframe in which to develop and > patience is the first parami. > Patience: so that one > can face the present moment as it is now - rather than trying > to make it how we think it should be. Ledi Sayadaw: said the Buddha to the Venerable Ananda. Thus, although, he (the millionaire Mahadhana's son) possessed parami ripe enough to make his present existence his last existence, not being a person who) had secured niyata vyakarana, he failed to obtain release from worldly ills in this present life because of the upheavals caused by the defilements within him, and this is despite the fact that he had the opportunity of encountering the Buddha Sasana. If further, his period of existence in the apaya loka is prolonged because of evil acts done in this existence, he would not be able to rise again and emerge out of those apaya lokas in time for the sasana of the future Metteyya Buddha. And, after that, the large number of world-cycles that follow are world-cycles where no Buddhas appear,[18] there being no world-cycles within the vicinity of the present world where Buddhas are due to appear. Alas! far indeed is this millionaire's son from worldly ills even though he possessed parami ripe enough to make his present existence his last existence. The general opinion current at the present is that, if the parami are complete, one cannot miss encountering a Buddha Sasana even if one does not wish to do so, and that one's release from worldly ills is ensured even though one may not desire such release. These people fail to pay attention to the existence of niyata (one who has obtained a sure prediction made by a Buddha) and aniyata (one who has not obtained a sure prediction made by a Buddha). Considering the two texts from the Pitaka mentioned above, and the story of the millionaire Mahadhana's son, it should be remembered that aniyata neyya individuals can attain release from worldly ills in this life only if they put forth sufficient effort, even if they possess parami sufficient to enable them to obtain such release. If industry and effort are lacking, the Paths and the Fruits cannot be attained within the present Buddha Sasana. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm - kel 42457 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Hugo, Thanks for keeping the discussion going: I know you were getting a bit tired for a while there. :-) --------------- H: > No, I don't agree, but I don't disagree either because I don't know what is The Middle Way. It seems that you know what is the Middle Way, I don't. > --------------- Now then, don't get grumpy. :-) The Middle Way is the only way that leads to the end of samsara. But there is no traveller that moves along it: like every other ultimate reality described by the Buddha, it exists in a single moment of consciousness. Any understanding that involves either a self that will live forever or a self that will be annihilated (e.g., after death or after parinibbana etc.) is not the Middle Way - neither in its supramundane form nor in its mundane form. ------------------------- H: > After reading this: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn21.html It looks to me that The Buddha encouraged people to watch one's own behaviour patters: > ---------------- It does look that way, but only at first sight. This discourse was given to a deva king - presumably someone who already knew a lot about the benefits of kusala - so it must be describing something extremely profound and difficult to understand. My guess is it is describing supramundane right speech (at a moment of Path consciousness). So the verbal conduct that is *not pursued* includes not only akusala speech but also mundane kusala speech that leads to [happy] rebirth. There is no actual verbalisation at that time: supramundane right speech, right action and right livelihood all occur together in the one moment, and their functions are to permanently eradicate conditions for wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. ----------------- H: > Also, the instructions to Rahula are exactly that: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html "Whenever you want to perform a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I want to perform -- would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it " What are you guys seeing that I don't? Now I am really, really shocked! --------------------------- That one is even harder for me to guess at! :-) Rahula, like the deva king, had vast accumulations of right understanding but was still a learner when the discourse was given. Therefore, the factors that led to his right understanding still needed to be pursued. Mundane kusala is one of those factors. Reading this sutta, we might think that wise reflection and wholesome speech are ordinary concepts that can be understood and performed in ordinary ways (as if by a self). But we mustn't be fooled, the Dhamma is always profound and difficult to grasp. Realities depend on conditions for their arising: there is never any self that can bring them about. Ken H 42458 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I thought we were pretty unanimous > on vow taking. I have always thought it was one of the things that > distinguished even popular Buddhism from Christianity - "Christians > take vows: Buddhists don't." > >======== Dear Ken, What about this: 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' Robertk 42459 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:25pm Subject: glossaries Hi, Sarah, Rather than a printed glossary to go with BDL ("no homework"), we decided to spend part of each Wednesday meeting going over things on the whiteboard, which is probably better even if it does mean I end up talking more than usual. ;) We're not erasing the board when we leave, so maybe I'll take in a Tibetan/Pali glossary for any curious Tuesday folks. I may not care for the Tibetan practices or some of the things the monks do, but as Nina reminds me in ch3: "The Buddha explained to his disciples that there should be neither approval nor disapproval of persons, but that they should simply teach Dhamma. In that way people will know what is real." peace, connie 42460 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/05 10:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Ken, > What about this: > > 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' > > Robertk > ==================== Easy for *you* to say, Robert! ;-)) More seriously, a translation would be nice for Pali dummies like me! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42461 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: Subtle akusala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi RobertK, > > > be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six > > classes of craving should be known." > > > > Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I > > think this is important, craving is part of the wheel. > Kel: I thought we're not suppose to read suttas as prescriptions > and instead descriptions only? :) > ============= Dear Kel, Doesn't sound like anything I've said, you'll have to show me a reference. ========== > As for for the wheel or D.O., isn't feeling part of it too? I > think you were trying to refute my statement about six sense- doors. > How about the story of 2 groups arguing over how many vedana Buddha > taught: one group claims 2 and the other claims 3. They went to > Buddha for clarification and he said he taught many vedana schemes: > 2, 3, 6, 18, 108 and so forth. So how many types of vedanas or > cravings do I need to understand for enlightenment? ========== What was your statement about the six doors I was trying to refute? When magga-citta is attained any element can be the object. Painful feeling for example. But when we are developing understanding many different elements must be known. Dependent Origination is very profound, for me I think we need to investigate each building block, each dhamma that arises, to learn about its characteristic. Then, slowly, aspects of Deependent Origination can become a little clearer. ======== it should be remembered that aniyata > neyya individuals can attain release from worldly ills in this life > only if they put forth sufficient effort, even if they possess > parami sufficient to enable them to obtain such release. If industry > and effort are lacking, the Paths and the Fruits cannot be attained > within the present Buddha Sasana. > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm > > - kel ========== I think what is most important is that right effort by distinguished from wrong effort. We read from the Dhammasangani (376) under AKUSALA dhammas: Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; .. .. from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......" Micchatta.m, bhikkhave, aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, micchatta.m aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa? Micchaadi.t.thikassa, bhikkhave, , micchaavaayaa..... massa micchaasati pahoti, micchaasatissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti, micchaasamaadhissa micchaa~naa.na.m pahoti, micchaa~naa.nissa ?E4 micchaavimutti pahoti I wrote this to Tep last month: When I was at a temple in thailand in the late 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous) home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of pilgrimage and having heard about this temple came to stay. He had been there for about 6 weeks when I arrived and I was interested to meet him because I was thinking about visiting his center in the following year. He told me that when he first met the teacher where we were, he was asked about his understanding and experiences; when it became clear that the monk thought he had experienced nibbana the teacher told him he was simply fooling himself, (self-hypnosis he called it). Anyway over the next few weeks the monk came to see that he was indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to know him well (apart from the teacher he and another long term resident were the only people I was permitted to talk to - a very strict temple). Anyway over the next month he had some more struggles-because the teacher insisted that not only had he not not attained nibbana, but he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). This monk led a rigorous life and kept the vinaya strictly, but he had been going the wrong way. RobertK 42462 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi Howard, I would translate as, "I undertake the training factor (rule) to avoid the taking of fermented liquors and intoxicants". Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/05 10:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > Dear Ken, > > What about this: > > > > 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' > > > > Robertk > > > ==================== > Easy for *you* to say, Robert! ;-)) More seriously, a translation > would be nice for Pali dummies like me! > > With metta, > Howard > 42463 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/05 10:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > Dear Ken, > > What about this: > > > > 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' > > > > Robertk > > > ==================== > Easy for *you* to say, Robert! ;-)) More seriously, a translation > would be nice for Pali dummies like me! > >====== Ha. It was a little test for KenH, Howard. I see RobM has given a good translation. Sometimes you see it translated as abstaining from alcohol and drugs. But the pali only mentions types of alcohol. Nevertheless someone taking speed or marijuana or such is clearly not doing themselves any favours. But when in strong pain I see no reason to refuse medication like morphine - quite different from when taking it for recreation. RobertK 42464 From: naresh gurwani Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new to the group Dear Hugo Thanx for the link, i will read it and would expect help from u in future. Naresh --- Hugo wrote: <...> > Besides the instructions described in the Suttas, > you can try: > > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl115.html > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html > > In one of the meditations sessions, my teacher said > something like: > "it is fine to try different methods of meditation, > but don't be > jumping from one to another too quickly". <....> 42465 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Re: Subtle akusala Hi RobertK, > > Kel: I thought we're not suppose to read suttas as prescriptions > > and instead descriptions only? :) > > ============= > Dear Kel, > Doesn't sound like anything I've said, you'll have to show me a > reference. > ========== Kel: It's not, I just found it funny in reference to other posts on DSG. > When magga-citta is attained any element can be the object. Painful > feeling for example. Kel: Nope, you are wrong here technically. Magga citta is either somanassa vedana ie with pitisuka or upekkha vedana. You remember the story of a monk who broke his leg to lessen attachment to the body. Then he recalled his own sila and how spotless it has been since he ordained. Then the piti from such a recollection arose and by doing vipassana on piti, he became an arahat. He totally blocked out the pain of his leg and fixed attention on piti. > must be known. Dependent Origination is very profound, for me I > think we need to investigate each building block, each dhamma that > arises, to learn about its characteristic. Then, slowly, aspects of > Deependent Origination can become a little clearer. Kel: good luck, it's hard to isolate the building blocks. > I think what is most important is that right effort by > distinguished from wrong effort. Kel: no doubt > another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor ... > indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of > being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to ... > he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- > namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start > again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the > difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha > nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). > This monk led a rigorous life and kept the vinaya strictly, but he > had been going the wrong way. Kel: No doubt there's danger at every stage until we are arahats. Vipassana instructors can be blinded by mana as most learned person can be. I've met monks who are still very agitated and have appearance of not letting anything go. Sometime it's amazing what is apparent to other people that we can't see for ourselves. Mahasi sayadaw gave some checks to see if one is an ariya. So I don't see any choice but to be constantly analyzing to see if the defilements are lurking. Seeking a proper teacher and having good guidance are also essential too. At worst his kusala from keeping to vinaya will allow him to be born into happy realms and continue practice :) I don't see it as going the wrong way as much as he stopped. - kel 42466 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi Howard, > > Dear Ken, > > What about this: > > > > 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' > > > > Robertk > > > ==================== > Easy for *you* to say, Robert! ;-)) More seriously, a translation > would be nice for Pali dummies like me! heh I knew someone would ask for translation when I saw robert's original post. I said it outloud to myself and said oh just 5th precept in pali :) Have you taken the Satipatthana course with Goenka? He uses pali in day 0 opening formalities, unlike a regular 10-day. - kel 42467 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Subtle akusala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > H > > When magga-citta is attained any element can be the object. > Painful > > feeling for example. > Kel: Nope, you are wrong here technically. Magga citta is either > somanassa vedana ie with pitisuka or upekkha vedana. You remember > the story of a monk who broke his leg to lessen attachment to the > body. Then he recalled his own sila and how spotless it has been > since he ordained. Then the piti from such a recollection arose and > by doing vipassana on piti, he became an arahat. He totally blocked > out the pain of his leg and fixed attention on piti. ======= Dear Kel, I was imprecise. Of course the exact moment of maggacitta the object is nibbana, I was meaning in the mind processes just before that. Another along these lines is that of Channa (majjhima 144) who cut his own throat but attained arahantship in the few seconds before bleeding to death. The Majjhimaatthakatha 'he cut his throat, and just at that moment the fear of death descended upon him and the sign of future rebirth appeared. Recognising that he was still an ordinary person, he was aroused and developed insight. Comprehending the formations, he attained arahantship just before he expired'note 1311 Robert 42468 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:20pm Subject: Re: Subtle akusala Hi RobertK, Of course, I thought to say you were just being careless but forgot to in my haste. what kusala accumulations Channa must had to recognize rebirth nimitta and still have time to have at least 4 more vithis for 4 magga-cittas. Sadu sadu sadu - kel > I was imprecise. Of course the exact moment of maggacitta the > object is nibbana, I was meaning in the mind processes just before > that. > Another along these lines is that of Channa (majjhima 144) who cut > his own throat but attained arahantship in the few seconds before > bleeding to death. > The Majjhimaatthakatha 'he cut his throat, and just at that moment > the fear of death descended upon him and the sign of future rebirth > appeared. Recognising that he was still an ordinary person, he was > aroused and developed insight. Comprehending the formations, he > attained arahantship just before he expired'note 1311 > Robert 42469 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Hi Robert K, --------------------- RK: > What about this: 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' -------------------- My translation is very similar to Rob M's. :-) And I stand corrected: it would seem that popular Buddhism does include vow taking. But that's all right, as long as there is no belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual, it is a harmless enough thing to do. How do you see it? Ken H 42470 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi, Robert (and Rob M) - Thank you both for the translation. It is a precept I've followed for quite a long time. BTW, I agree with you, Robert, about medication. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/17/05 10:57:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Ha. > It was a little test for KenH, Howard. > I see RobM has given a good translation. > Sometimes you see it translated as abstaining from alcohol and > drugs. But the pali only mentions types of alcohol. Nevertheless > someone taking speed or marijuana or such is clearly not doing > themselves any favours. > But when in strong pain I see no reason to refuse medication like > morphine - quite different from when taking it for recreation. > RobertK > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42471 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi, Kel - In a message dated 2/18/05 12:12:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > heh I knew someone would ask for translation when I saw robert's > original post. I said it outloud to myself and said oh just 5th > precept in pali :) Have you taken the Satipatthana course with > Goenka? He uses pali in day 0 opening formalities, unlike a regular > 10-day. =================== No, I just took the regular 10-day course. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42472 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Hi KenH, Tonia, Suan, RobK & All, Tonia, I know you’ve moved on with your questions, but I wished to say there's a wealth of further good material on the fifth precept and related topics in Useful Posts to supplement all the helpful comments made by many others recently: ***** Drinking alcohol & Drugs 1791, 1889, 1971, 2755, 2784, 3580, 5760, 6060, 6226, 17043, 25184, 25363, 25418, 25544 Drugs and Meditation 5785, 5854 ***** --- kenhowardau wrote: > 'Surameraya-Majjapamadatthana Veramani Sikkhapadang Samadiyami' > -------------------- > > My translation is very similar to Rob M's. :-) And I stand > corrected: it would seem that popular Buddhism does include vow > taking. But that's all right, as long as there is no belief in the > efficacy of rite and ritual, it is a harmless enough thing to do. > > How do you see it? ... S: A very interesting area of discussion. You may like to check #25363 and #25544 for relevant quotes. (btw, KenH, I thought there were some real gems in your discussion with Tep - thank you both). Tonia, I’m really impressed by your good, articulate questions and appreciative comments to all who respond. I think the real danger in the taking of intoxicants is the addictive quality. See #25363 and the early ones (I haven’t checked them, but if you, Ken or anyone else finds anything which stands out, pls repost). We can say we’re just taking a little wine for health and so on, but one glass becomes two and two becomes three and before we know it, our careless speech and other bad habits have been given extra ‘food’. It's really a long time ago - 30 years or so - but I vividly remember my own 'regrettable' experiences in this regard as though they were yesterday. I've also seen close family members becoming addicted to drink in particular (leading to harmful results for themselves and others), but always swearing this isn't so. Suan, good to see you around again and RobK, appreciating your posts. Metta, Sarah p.s Tonia, I’m a big acupuncture fan and regularly visit a great acupuncturist here. (Actually an acupuncture junkie, if the truth be known – I visit him with any excuse;-). Thx for telling us you live in Texas. Tep also does, but I forget which city. We also have a good dhamma friend and lurking member, Pinna, in Austen. =========================================== 42473 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:02pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 126 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** The seven universals have each their own specific characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause and they have different qualities as they arise with cittas of different jåtis and of different planes of consciousness. Summarizing the seven ‘universals’, they are: * phassa (contact) vedanå (feeling) saññå (remembrance) cetanå (volition) ekaggatå ( concentration or one-pointedness) jívitindriya (life faculty) manasikåra (attention) * All the ‘universals’ arise with every citta and they share the same object with the citta. They are all of the same jåti as the citta they accompany and of the same plane or consciousness. In the planes of existence where there are both nåma and rúpa, cetasikas arise at the same ‘base’, vatthu, as the citta they accompany and thus, they may arise at the eye-base, ear-base nose-base, tongue-base, body-base or heart-base. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 42474 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:48pm Subject: conditions between matter and matter(was: Q. visible object neutral? Carl) Hi RobM & Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > The four great elements condition one another by way of > sahajaata-paccaya > (conascence) and aññamañña paccaya (mutuality), and the four great > elements > condition the derived rupas by way of sahajata-paccaya …. S: Yes, I’d also been puzzled by RobM’s comment (a few times!) about no relationship ‘between matter and matter’ in the Patthana. The posts Nina is referring to, I think: *** Conditions 3- Sahajata Paccaya (co-nascence condition) 41349, 41392, 41409 *** Also, surely: By presence condition (atthi paccaya) and also by nutrition condition (ahara paccaya), physical nutritive essence sustains and thereby conditions kamma produced rupas in the body. By presence condition too (atthi paccaya) and also by faculty condition (indriya paccaya), physical life force (jivitindriya rupa) conditions kamma produced rupas By dependence condition (nissaya paccaya or sahajata nissaya paccaya), the four great elements support each other. A good topic to reflect on further if anyone has more to add. Metta, Sarah p.s RobM – I thought your posts on the fifth preceot and on desirable/undesirable objects were v.helpful. I hope to pick up some other points next week perhaps. ======== 42475 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: conditions between matter and matter(was: Q. visible object neutral? Carl) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM & Nina, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Hi Rob M, > > The four great elements condition one another by way of > > sahajaata-paccaya > > (conascence) and aññamañña paccaya (mutuality), and the four great > > elements > > condition the derived rupas by way of sahajata-paccaya > …. > S: Yes, I'd also been puzzled by RobM's comment (a few times!) about no > relationship `between matter and matter' in the Patthana. ===== Once again, my habit of using categorical statements (*NO* relationship...) gets me into trouble :-) In reality, the description of relationships between matter and matter are clearly confined to the scope of the Buddha's teaching and do not extend into what we call "physics", "chemistry", etc. Metta, Rob M :-) 42476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: Suan. Dear Suan, I am joining Howard, much appreciated. It would be very inspiring if you could elaborate in your own way one or more conditions. Thank you, Nina. op 17-02-2005 17:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi, Suan (and all) - > > Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!!! > > In a message dated 2/17/05 10:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: >> Pa.t.thaana, the seventh book of Abhidhamma Pitaka, teaches the >> following seven among the twenty-four causes: adhipatipaccayo, >> aasevanapaccayo, kammapaccayo, aahaarapaccayo, indriyapaccayo, >> jhaanapaccayo, maggapaccayo. These seven causes directly relate to >> the habit formation of healthy actions or unhealthy actions one way >> or another. 42477 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca as characteristic Hi Joop, --- jwromeijn wrote: >>S: (from Dispeller) they > For me, impermanence is more difficult than no-self. When the Buddha > should have asked to me: "Joop, what do you think: is rupa permanent > or impermanent ?", I perhaps had said: "Well, Sir, when You mean with > the term 'rupa', 'experienced materiality', yes, that experience is > impermanent. But when You mean 'matter' when You say 'rupa' than I > think it's permanent, because of the laws of physics, that of > conservation of energy and that of momentum." > I know it's the wrong answer and when life should be an exam, I > should fail but this is what I (in my imperfect big ontological need) > think. .... S: Yes, I think our habitual ways of thinking get in the way all the time. I would also say that hearing about anatta has always seemed like sweeter medicine to me (however superficial any understanding has ever been), but really, as Kel said, I think the development of understanding of the ti-lakkhana has to go hand-in-hand. It's true that only one characteristic can be object just prior to enlightenment, but that's only because there can only ever be one characterisitic or aspect appearing at any given time. All three characterisitics of dhammas have to be clearly understood. .... > Maybe the reason of the difference is I'm not so thinking > anthropocentric and egocentric (in the literal meaning of the word). > That brings me to my second remark: what you said about 'kamma' is > clear. I understand now what was wrong in my question: "why does > kamma not obey the law of anicca?" Everything (except nibanna) is > falling away because of the conditions. And of nama and rupa the > conditions are very quick so that they disappear, and of kamma not so > quick. .... S: Well, the conditioned dhammas all fall away quickly. However, some conditions affect co-arising dhammas, some affect immediatly following dhammas and some like kamma or natural decisive support condition can affect dhammas any time on, maybe even many, many lifetimes later. Conditions are very complicated and I'm glad to see your interest. .... > > That brings me to my third remark: That I still am contemplating the > relations between 'anicca' and 'emptiness', for example the questions > of these two are in fact the same. For that reason I'm studying now > the Kaccaayanagotta Sutta and what Nagarjuna is saying about it, and > Kalupahana, and you (in message # 15227). > But that's not a question. .... Good, I'll look forward to some answers! Btw, I think you did ask about Puggalapannatti, the Abhidhamma text. It is translated as 'Human Types' by Bimala Law (PTS, 1922). It's a slim volume. I'd love to see the commentary translated too. Quite a lot of this text is also in AN suttas. I once asked your same qu #41777 to Phil about 'liking theory and slow intelligence' and was told that for those with lots of moha (like us!!), they need to hear lots of theory. Metta, Sarah ====== 42478 From: Date: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hi, Sarah (and Tonia) - In a message dated 2/18/05 2:00:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > We can say we’re just taking a little wine for health and so on, but one > glass becomes two and two becomes three and before we know it, our > careless speech and other bad habits have been given extra ‘food’. It's > really a long time ago - 30 years or so - but I vividly remember my own > 'regrettable' experiences in this regard as though they were yesterday. > I've also seen close family members becoming addicted to drink in > particular (leading to harmful results for themselves and others), but > always swearing this isn't so. > ========================= I agree with this, Sarah. Also, I believe that if one is sufficiently introspective, it is possible to see that even a single drink has a negative effect on one's attention (though, of course, it may also serve to artificially calm one for a while). I have three additional observations with regard to this issue: 1) It used to be that having a few drinks at a party or function was a good part of what I looked forward to at the event, and my "fun" was partly dependent on that. At this point I have observed the precept against intoxicants for possibly 12 years, and I now have a better time in all contexts - I'm "looser" and happier than ever before. Of course, I've been engaged in other aspects of Dhamma practice as well, but I definitely attribute part of the improvement to not consuming alcohol. 2) The precept against intoxicants should not be applied to necessary medications. However, one has to be completely honest with oneself with regard to the matter, taking *only* what is truly necessary and only *when* it is necessary. 3) The practice of abstaining should be done for the legitimate purposes of not compromising sila by heedlessness and of not compromising the purity/clarity of the mind. It should *not* be done as mere ritual or "magic act". If it turned out, for example, that a dish you (i.e., "one") ate at someone's house had a bit of wine in it, or if, by mistake, you were to have a glass of punch that, unbeknownst to you, had some alcohol in it, and if you reacted with remorse and a feeling that you had violated the precept and that "all is lost" rather than merely thinking "Oh, well, better be more careful next time," then that would be a signal that you have you been observing the precept not in a reality-oriented manner but as superstitious ritual. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42479 From: Hugo Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hello KenH, On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:27:32 -0000, kenhowardau wrote: > Thanks for keeping the discussion going: I know you were getting a > bit tired for a while there. :-) I am tired already, I don't want to "just leave". I am in the process of "closing discussions". > --------------- > H: > No, I don't agree, but I don't disagree either because I don't > know what is The Middle Way. > > It seems that you know what is the Middle Way, I don't. > > --------------- > > Now then, don't get grumpy. :-) huh? How do you know I was or not grumpy when I wrote that? Ah!, now I understand why you see different things than I. > Rahula, like the > deva king, had vast accumulations of right understanding but was > still a learner when the discourse was given. Cool, how do you know that? Ah!, maybe in the same way you know I was grumpy when I wrote that. Ken, do you cling to a self? Ken, are mental defilements ever present in your mind? Ken, have you ever considered you may be wrong? Maybe you tried the Suttas before, then did some meditation, and after a while you found out that it was not "working" so you decided to try the Abhidhamma, was that the path you followed, or you just started with the Abhidhamma, dropped the meditation and stayed there? I'd like to know what Path did you follow since you "became" a Buddhist, that would be more helpful than just discussing possible interpretations and "guesses" your mind or mind can give out of a written text. Greetings, -- Hugo 42480 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: Was "Introduction", Now "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" > wrote: > > Forgot to mention that you have made a clear ebook about > Abidhamma, > > which can be found in "Files" in the Menu-bars ('Theory behind > > Buddha's Smile.pdf'). > > > > And you forgot to mention your promise (more or less) some months ago > > to write some articles about Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent > > Origination. > > ===== > > The eBook is my class notes. I want to add another chapter covering > Paticcasamuppada and I have been working on it slowly. Here is what > I have so far (this is simplified and there is lots of meat still to > be added): (snip) Dear Rob Well, it sounds solid, but what to say about it? I was surprised that you 'translated' the Paticcasamuppada (dependent origination - DO ) in the building blocks of Abhidhamma, I had not expected that, I expected a more dynamic approach. And my knowledge is not enough to have an opinion about it. Still some questions: - The DO can be used for explaining what's happening during three (or more) lifetimes, I think you are doing that. But as far as I understand it can also been used to explain what's happening in one lifetime. And it can be used to explain what's happening during one second, for example during insight-meditation; and that's what is what interests me most; perhaps when you have more text to connect the buildingblocks, it get more clear. - On this moment my main interest is the relation between anicca en 'emptiness' as Nagarjuna uses this term. And I like the entry of David Kalupahana who states that the whole Karika of Nagarjuna is a commentary on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. I quote a part of it, about the DO, I think it's nearly impossible to explain it in Abhidhamma-terms, or do you know how ? "'Everything exists" (sabba.m atthi): this is one extreme. "Everything does not exist" (sabba.m n'atthi): this is the other extreme. Not approaching either extreme the Tathaagata teaches you a doctrine by the middle [way]:- Conditioned by ignorance dispositions come to pass; conditioned by dispositions is consciousness; conditioned by consciousness is the psychophysical personality; conditioned by the psychophysical personality are the six senses; conditioned by the six senses is contact; conditioned by contact is feeling; conditioned by feeling is craving; conditioned by craving is grasping; conditioned by grasping is becoming; conditioned by becoming is birth; conditioned by birth is decay-and-death, grief, suffering . . . even such is the uprising of this entire mass of suffering, But from the utter fading away and ceasing of ignorance (arises) ceasing of dispositions. and thus comes ceasing of this entire mass of suffering.' - One other detail: you speak about 'merit' and 'demerit'; I don't like the way of reasoning behind that words. I prefer simply to behave in a ethical way, without thinking about any result of it. Isn't that more according the Suttas than the merit- expectations? Or can at leat not another translation in stead of 'merit' been used? Metta Joop 42481 From: Hugo Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] other groups Hello Tonia, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:03:30 -0600, tonia wrote: > You mentioned to keep an eye on some other groups as well. What other > groups have you found that are good? All groups are good, as all medicines are good, but you have to know which ones, when and how much of each to take or you might get sick instead of healthy. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UpasikaTalk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SanghaOnline And remember, only The Buddha knows the whole Truth, everybody else, just bits and pieces, and to make it even harder, you can't know whose bits and pieces are really part of the truth, just for the simple reason that your mind is full of defilements. When you think you have found the Truth, drop it, and say "not sure", and keep looking, if you find the same thing again, drop it again, repeat until you don't find anything other than the same thing ever and ever again, but still you can't be sure if you have found the Truth or you are lost in your self-created "Truth". Greetings, -- Hugo 42482 From: Hugo Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hugo Hello Charles, On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:09:56 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > To me, "I am starting to suspect that I am just making you all waste your time. I apologize for that." sounds like you are feeling insecure about the situation. This is considered self-conscious -- fear of making a mistake. Ah, thanks, now I understand what "self-conscious" means. And, yes, I am insecure about the situation, I don't know who is right and who is not. The moment I start believing what I say or what anybody else say, I raise a flag and look other way. On the other hand, I am leaving the mailing list soon, but that's independent to my comment you are quoting above. I like to engage in discussions, but I don't want to attach to them, if I am not careful I start believing all I say and all the others say and stop "thinking" and just "follow". Greetings, -- Hugo 42483 From: TGrand458@a... Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions between matter and matter(was: Q. visible object neu... In a message dated 2/18/2005 12:03:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: In reality, the description of relationships between matter and matter are clearly confined to the scope of the Buddha's teaching and do not extend into what we call "physics", "chemistry", etc. Metta, Rob M :-) Hi Rob M Not sure exactly what you mean here, but it reminded me of something I heard Ven. Dr. Sri Dhammananda say, paraphrasing ... "The the more science learns, the closer it gets to Buddhism." TG 42484 From: Hugo Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth prec... Hello All, On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:33:24 EST, upasaka@a... wrote: > 2) The precept against intoxicants should not be applied to necessary > medications. However, one has to be completely honest with oneself with regard > to the matter, taking *only* what is truly necessary and only *when* it is > necessary. From the "Morning Chant": http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/misc/chanting/morning.html Pa.tisa"nkhaa yoniso gilaana-paccaya-bhesajja-parikkhaara"m pa.tisevaami, Considering them thoughtfully, I use medicinal requisites for curing the sick, Yaavadeva uppannaana"m veyyaabaadhikaana"m vedanaana"m pa.tighaataaya, Simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen, Abyaapajjha-paramataayaati. And for maximum freedom from disease. Greetings, -- Hugo 42485 From: tonia Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Suan, Ken, and Sarah, Suan: > The above position, to the extent that it undermines taking a vow to > keep the precepts, has veered towards an extreme view that > contradicts Abhidhamma Pitaka. > We should not use the personlessness teachings of Abhidhamma to > undermine or downplay the importance of taking a vow to keep > precepts. > > Abhidhamma Pitaka makes it possible for a Buddhist practitioner to > be able to keep the precepts in even deeper, higher, more genuine, > more meaningful, and more thoughtful ways. Tonia: I plan on reading the Abhidhamma Pitaka as soon as I have enough knowledge to feel comfortable reading such a technical text. I am sure that then I will have a deeper understanding of the reasons for the precepts. Ken: > > This comes as a surprise to me. I was aware that formal meditation > was a controversial subject, but I thought we were pretty unanimous > on vow taking. I have always thought it was one of the things that > distinguished even popular Buddhism from Christianity - "Christians > take vows: Buddhists don't." > Ken: I agree with you regarding this. I don't believe that we can truly take a vow to never break the precepts given our condition. I do believe, however, that we can take a vow (if one so chooses) to do one's very best to keep the precepts. Again, I'm a beginner, but this is the way I've felt about any religious 'law' - one should not be forced to take a vow one knows one can't keep, but one should make every effort to avoid breaking that 'law' if one agrees with the reasoning behind the law. Sarah, > Tonia, I’m really impressed by your good, articulate questions and > appreciative comments to all who respond. I think the real danger in the > taking of intoxicants is the addictive quality. See #25363 and the early > ones (I haven’t checked them, but if you, Ken or anyone else finds > anything which stands out, pls repost). Tonia: Thanks for the compliment and the references to the various posts. As for your comment on addictive quality: I agree that the worst thing about intoxicants is their addictive quality. I, too, have seen members of my family struggle with addictions to different types of drugs. Because of this, I have never tried any drug and only have an occasional drink. Thanks, again, for everyone's thorough answers and the lively conversation. It's rare to meet a group of people from which you can learn something new everyday. Tonia 42486 From: tonia Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:19am Subject: scriptures (was end fifth precept + 2 more) Nina/Evan/Rob, Nina: > I use the PTS editions, Pali Text Society. I ordered them from England, but > they can also be ordered in U.S. It is best to ask first a catalogue and if > you become a member you get them reduced in price. For the address in USA I > do not know, but maybe Google could help you? Tonia: Thanks for sending me there. I did find a US counterpart at http://www.pariyatti.com/ in case any other US residents would like to acquire the PTS books. Evan: > What I would suggest is that you start off with the most common suttas > translated most recently - ie the Wisdom Publications translations of > the Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya and the Sumyatta Nikaya (Middle Length > Discourses of the Buddha, Long Discourses of the Buddha and Connected > Discourses of the Buddha respectively) all of which you can purchase at > Amazon.com. Tonia: Thanks for suggesting where I should start. That would have been my next question! :) Unfortunately, being a student, I'm quite short on cash right now, so buying these books will have to wait. I'm going to start by printing out a few a day and reading them that way until I can acquire a bound copy. Rob: You can download Pali chants and by > listening while following the text, you can pick up the > pronounciation rules. The website is: > > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm > In Theravada Buddhism, the sacred books are called Tipitaka (three > baskets). Tonia: Thanks for the reference to the chants and for the in-depth information on the Tipitaka. I also appreciate your advice on where to start. It seems that there is just so much to read. It's very helpful to know where to begin! Have a wonderful day! Tonia 42487 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:17pm Subject: For Howard Are you trying to say I should not be posting? I do-not recall the Kalama Sutta saying, "Don't got by ... logical conjecture, ..." Especially being the Buddha did it him self. And I am sorry for you if my "desire" to help people like you, realize some of the features of the Dharma that I have, is a failure to you. I assume you are trying to say my methods are too "aversive." If so, thanks for pointing out the problem with my approach. If not, then Give some examples. ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 17 February, 2005 23:00 Subject: Re: Christine [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L > If you are trying to win an argument/prove a point, you have to rely on > logic (this is the Buddhist way). > ======================= There are limits to everything, Charles. The following is from the Kalama Sutta: "Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference ... " I stopped with "inference". Our logic is no better than the presumptions it is applied to, and, moreover, our usual informal inference is typically sloppy, with unrealized presumptions and invalid deduction rules, and driven by desire and aversion. 42488 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hugo Hi Hugo, I understand, I admire the way you are thinking. How old are you ? (I am confused) Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: Hugo To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2005 15:43 Subject: Re: [dsg] Hugo > Charles DaCosta wrote: > To me, "I am starting to suspect that I am just making you all waste your time. I apologize for that." sounds like you are feeling insecure about the situation. This is considered self-conscious -- fear of making a mistake. Ah, thanks, now I understand what "self-conscious" means. And, yes, I am insecure about the situation, I don't know who is right and who is not. The moment I start believing what I say or what anybody else say, I raise a flag and look other way. On the other hand, I am leaving the mailing list soon, but that's independent to my comment you are quoting above. I like to engage in discussions, but I don't want to attach to them, if I am not careful I start believing all I say and all the others say and stop "thinking" and just "follow". 42489 From: Waters Illusion Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Well Joop, First of all sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't trying to ignore you or anything, but since this yahoo group has lots of traffic and there's so many posts in one day, it's hard for me to keep track of who said what and when. But anyways, back to topic... As the buddha said in the kalama sutta, you do not have to believe in everything u hear, see, read in books, even in his own teachings unless you have experienced it for yourself and unless it is beneficial to you and so many others...if it is beneficial, only then can you accept. Let us not discuss about rebirth and past lives then...one can go on and on debating about it and come to no conclusion...let us just deal with the present moment. The buddha's teachings in a nutshell is only 3: sila, samadhi, and panna. What is sila? Morality...that is the 5 precepts, do u feel that after practicing them, they benefit you? If yes, then keep practicing...What is samadhi? It is the practice of meditation, which comprises of 2 two methods: meditation for the attainment of peace of mind or concentration (samantha bhavana) and meditation for purifying the mind (vipassana bhavana, sometimes reffered to satipatthana in the Majjhima Nikaya). Again, meditation does not help to solve life's problems...but it helps to clear one's mind...thoughts become purified, free from hatred, greed, or delusion...so that one can think clearly in order to solve life's complexities. What is panna? It is wisdom...how does on cultivate wisdom? Well, through practicing meditation and practicing sila. Sila, samadhi, and panna is like a tripod. One cannot stand without the other two. After one practices all three and sees that in fact they do bring benefit here and now...then keep practicing...only then can you believe it. Of course, the nature of human minds is always curious, always searching...I'm not saying that you stop seeking for the truth, and just take those three and leave. I'm just saying it is the basics of buddhism, it is what is important in reaching the final goal, happiness. There was a story in the buddha's lifetime. The buddha and several monks were in a forest. He grabbed a handful of leaves then asked the monks, which is more, the leaves in my hand or the leaves in this forest? The monk answered, "of course, the leaves in your hand". Then the buddha makes a correlation with dhamma as being the leaves, that it only takes this much dhamma (the handful of leaves), in order to reach the final goal. Dhamma is vast, there's so much to learn and so little time...so make use of this present moment to start walking on the path. Afterall, what is knowledge if one never practices? One may know so much about dhamma, abhidhamma, etc...but if one never practices, it is useless. If you are not firmly established in sila, try to get established in it. If you aren't firmly established in samadhi, try to take some meditation retreats...automatically wisdom will arise, which will strenghten your sila and samadhi. May this be beneficial to you and all. Metta, Maya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joop, > > > > The way I look at kamma, which I hope will help you understand > > better, is like a habit pattern since the literal meaning of kamma > > is "action/volition". > ... > > Hallo Waters Illusion (if you want to be called with that name) > > Your explanation about kamma is rather clear, it does help my > understanding. > Still I have some problems: > - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". A property > of the ethics connected with the kamma-concept is that is future- > directed, it's about the effects of my intentional behavior in the > future. But I don't behave in a ethical way because of some effect, I > do it because of my conscience, of the memory that I have taken the > five precepts. I try to live in the here and now and not being > interested in the future of me (or I get better say: 'of somebody' > because who is me?). > - You talk about "actions … stored up in your citta". As I said in > another message: how does that work, how can billions of bits of > intentions technically been stored in a citta, a volatile phenomena ? > - You talk about "the realm that you are reborn". I don't know if > that happens, but that's not a topic of understanding, it's a topic > of (not)believing: in rebirth. > > Metta > > Joop 42490 From: Waters Illusion Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Joop, I made one mistake when I said: " The monk answered, "of course, the leaves in your hand". " I meant to say: "The leaves in the forest" hehehe...sorry typo. :P ~Maya 42491 From: Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/18/05 3:22:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: > > Are you trying to say I should not be posting? --------------------------------- Howard: No, I'm not. You are getting angry for no reason. I was merely pointing out that too much can be made of inference, and I quoted the Kalama Sutta to back that up. --------------------------------- > > I do-not recall the Kalama Sutta saying, "Don't got by ... logical > conjecture, ..." Especially being the Buddha did it him self. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I quoted the sutta directly from the Access to Insight site. I didn't search for a particularly odd translation. I have no axe to grind. ---------------------------------- > > And I am sorry for you if my "desire" to help people like you, realize some > of the features of the Dharma that I have, is a failure to you. > -------------------------------- Howard: Smile, my friend. It helps. :-) --------------------------------- > > I assume you are trying to say my methods are too "aversive." If so, thanks > for pointing out the problem with my approach. > --------------------------------- Howard: You are making much too much of what I wrote. I'm sorry it has upset you. What I wrote was a general comment, but perhaps you mistakenly took it personally. -------------------------------- > > > If not, then Give some examples. > ============================ With metta, Howard > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: upasaka@a... > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 17 February, 2005 23:00 > Subject: Re: Christine [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L > > > >If you are trying to win an argument/prove a point, you have to rely on > >logic (this is the Buddhist way). > > > ======================= > There are limits to everything, Charles. The following is from the > Kalama Sutta: "Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by > scripture, by > logical conjecture, by inference ... " I stopped with "inference". > Our logic is no better than the presumptions it is applied to, and, > moreover, our usual informal inference is typically sloppy, with unrealized > > presumptions and invalid deduction rules, and driven by desire and > aversion. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42492 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Dear Maya, Are you from Finland? CharlesD I like what you said in this post! It is beneficial to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Waters Illusion To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2005 21:34 Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop As the buddha said in the kalama sutta, you do not have to believe in everything u hear, see, read in books, even in his own teachings unless you have experienced it for yourself and unless it is beneficial to you and so many others...if it is beneficial, only then can you accept. Let us not discuss about rebirth and past lives then...one can go on and on debating about it and come to no conclusion...let us just deal with the present moment. The buddha's teachings in a nutshell is only 3: sila, samadhi, and panna. What is sila? Morality...that is the 5 precepts, do u feel that after practicing them, they benefit you? If yes, then keep practicing...What is samadhi? It is the practice of meditation, which comprises of 2 two methods: meditation for the attainment of peace of mind or concentration (samantha bhavana) and meditation for purifying the mind (vipassana bhavana, sometimes reffered to satipatthana in the Majjhima Nikaya). Again, meditation does not help to solve life's problems...but it helps to clear one's mind...thoughts become purified, free from hatred, greed, or delusion...so that one can think clearly in order to solve life's complexities. What is panna? It is wisdom...how does on cultivate wisdom? Well, through practicing meditation and practicing sila. Sila, samadhi, and panna is like a tripod. One cannot stand without the other two. After one practices all three and sees that in fact they do bring benefit here and now...then keep practicing...only then can you believe it. Of course, the nature of human minds is always curious, always searching...I'm not saying that you stop seeking for the truth, and just take those three and leave. I'm just saying it is the basics of buddhism, it is what is important in reaching the final goal, happiness. There was a story in the buddha's lifetime. The buddha and several monks were in a forest. He grabbed a handful of leaves then asked the monks, which is more, the leaves in my hand or the leaves in this forest? The monk answered, "of course, the leaves in your hand". Then the buddha makes a correlation with dhamma as being the leaves, that it only takes this much dhamma (the handful of leaves), in order to reach the final goal. Dhamma is vast, there's so much to learn and so little time...so make use of this present moment to start walking on the path. Afterall, what is knowledge if one never practices? One may know so much about dhamma, abhidhamma, etc...but if one never practices, it is useless. If you are not firmly established in sila, try to get established in it. If you aren't firmly established in samadhi, try to take some meditation retreats...automatically wisdom will arise, which will strenghten your sila and samadhi. Maya > > > > Hi Joop, > > > > The way I look at kamma, which I hope will help you understand > > better, is like a habit pattern since the literal meaning of kamma > > is "action/volition". > ... > > Your explanation about kamma is rather clear, it does help my > understanding. > Still I have some problems: > - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". A property > of the ethics connected with the kamma-concept is that is future- > directed, it's about the effects of my intentional behavior in the > future. But I don't behave in a ethical way because of some effect, I > do it because of my conscience, of the memory that I have taken the > five precepts. I try to live in the here and now and not being > interested in the future of me (or I get better say: 'of somebody' > because who is me?). > - You talk about "actions . stored up in your citta". As I said in > another message: how does that work, how can billions of bits of > intentions technically been stored in a citta, a volatile phenomena ? > - You talk about "the realm that you are reborn". I don't know if > that happens, but that's not a topic of understanding, it's a topic > of (not)believing: in rebirth. 42493 From: Waters Illusion Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Old Kamma: Charles I was born in Indonesia but currently reside in TX, USA. What makes you think i'm from Finland? :P just curious...of all the countries in the world, why Finland? What about yourself? Where are u from? ~Maya "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 42494 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James > Thanks for the letter. There are so many points to address in this > one letter though that I shudder to think that it is just one in a > series! ;-)) I cannot promise to be able to keep up. It turns out that it won't be a series. "Events on the ground" as they say are overrunning my Dhamma study - of course those events are Dhamma too - so I will only be able to respond to what you've written here. More than enough for us to talk about. No need to shudder, but if you *do* shudder remember that these things can't be controlled! > James: I'm not sure I would consider participation in this group to > be `bhavana'. Bhavana is the development of calm and insight. > Reading the posts in this group isn't likely to lead to calm > (especially my `outspoken' ones ;-)) and it isn't necessarily going > to lead to insight unless the knowledge learned leads to the > investigation of oneself (5 Khandas) in times away from the > computer. Predominately, in my opinion, this group builds the > development of sanna (a theoretical understanding acquired from > memory) and not necessarily panna (genuine understanding based on > wisdom). This is a very important point. Allow me to ramble a bit. The Buddha that Dhamma discussion is one of the factors of enlightenment (or "for" enlightenment - I can't remember) and is important for the cultivation of wisdom. And there is the importance of "good friends in Dhamma." Now that might give rise to the defintion of good friends, and if course if you believe that someone is teaching Wrong Dhamma that is not a good friend. But I'm sure you'll agree that there are good friends here, both in the conventional sense and the Dhamma sense that support the development of insight. The interesting thing is how, as you put it, "the knowledge learned leads to investigation of khandas in times away from the computer." In my case, it most definitely does. When Bhante V was active here - I hope he comes back- there was a post in which he denied that reading and discussion in this way were helpful. (Or was it KK, his student?) At that time, mentally, I put together a fairly long list of examples of how it was but never posted it as he kind of disappeared all of a sudden. I can't remember it now, and was making an effort to remember it yesterday through the day. This "making an effort to remember", if it happens in a natural, unforced way, can be a kind of bhavana, perhaps related to what you say about sanna, though my understanding of sanna is that it is not remembering in this way. I could only remember that there was a day in which Larry asked "what is detachment?" and it set off an interesting chain of events in my mind that led to deeper insight into the khandas. As I thought back, trying to recall this chain of events, they re-emerged, and I repeated the insight into the khandas. I won't go into details. Just believe me that the insights, while only intellectual, were very helpful, and kind of came through the day, first walking to the station, then on the train, then while I was preparing for a lesson at work and noticed that I was excessively bothered by a small stain on my slacks. This string of insights was triggered by reading that question by Larry. There are so many examples of this. Another one was yesterday when I re-read my letter to you and saw my words "what's the hurry?" and I thought they were foolish and reflected on the question during the day. THe bhavana aspect of DSG can come at unexpected moments. As I wrote a couple of weeks ago and mentionned several times to Sarah's amusement(?) a sidebar comment she made about the fellow she lives with, in itself just a passing commment, triggered for me an important insight into how the important thing is not stories about people and their characters, but the kusala and akusala being cultivated and eradicated. There are so many examples. Another exapmple of how DSG could qualify as bhavana is the way it allows us to develop pactors, right speech being the most obvious one. I think of the insight you had into the way your speech has been conditioned by your fathers, and I'm sure you've had more insight into the way your speech has mellowed and less abrasive over the past few months. Is that the result of a willed decision on your part, or are there other factors at work? No need to answer that, but reflecting on it is an example of bhavana through Dhamma discussion at DSG. And of course things like realizing that even the posts that annoy us are helping us to cultivate the perfection of patience and so on. I suppose I have rambled on this point motivated by wisdom conditioning a speedy return to DSG after we move. Part of me wants to take a long time away from the internet because I am constantly incapable of taking advantage of good things like DSG without getting caught up in some of the many many negative aspects of internet use. Part of me wants to be back as soon as we have an internet connection in several weeks. There is not telling now what will happen. We will see. > Additionally, I believe it is natural to go through > various stages of understanding. First, you thought I was a > troublemaker who should leave this group, now you see that my > presence serves a purpose even when you don't agree. Now, you have > enthusiasm for K. Sujin's approach, who knows what the future will > hold? At least you don't cling stubbornly to your views and you are > willing to drop them when they no longer meet your needs. That is > why your posts never irritate me and I think you will go far in > wisdom. Thanks James. You often say kind things to/about me that encourage me. (I remember your saying that you think I have a kind heart. I think you do too, and that is what motivates your desire to protect Dhamma, not conceit the way it might be with some people.) Yes, who knows what will happen with my current enthusiasm for Kh Sujin's approach. Since we won't have TV (permanently) or internet (temporarily) at our new place, I will be listening to the audio talks a lot, as well as BBC radio. (We're getting a short wave radio.) So I will either become a K Sujin fanatic, or a cricket fan. We'll see. Last night as I was packing at the end of a very very long and tiring day I was listening to one of the audio talks (in Benares) and at first I found myself (already irritable) annoyed by the tone of the talk. They were talking about Buddaghosa, and how people reject him simply on the basis of his mistaken measurement of the moon. It had a sectarian feeling to it, and there was another point in which someone mentionned the "the suttas can't be understood by conventional reading because they were given to people who already were on the verge of enlightenment and could understood the implicit deep meaning easily" idea. That annoyed me last night, for some reason. It was agreeed on so readily by everyone, as writ(?) though I think it is a huge statement when you think about and I won't want to accept it as easily as I have in the past. So I was annoyed. But then as I listened, the talk stayed so admirably focussed on what is happening *now*, so insistently, and gently on that message, that I got caught up in my enthusiasm again. That is the great thing about Kh Sujin. Always, always, always, bringing it back to *now.* That's so important for me. We'll see what happens, but I suspect I will continue to deepen my enthusiasm for her approach, and for Abhidhamma. And when I do all my conventional sutta reading, it can only help. There is nothing contradictory to suttas that I have found in Abhidhamma, even when the direct and perfect parallel between them, the co-somethingorother is not always shiningly clear. (For example, when someone in the talk brought up suttas, Kh Sujin said "what are suttas about? Present realities!" or words to that effect. That is not perfectly clear to me yet.) James, I've got to run. Could you hold your reply until tomorrow? I may or may not have time (and energy) to continue tonight. Thanks. Metta, Phil 42495 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Hugo ------------------- KH: > > Now then, don't get grumpy. :-) H: > huh? ------------------- Sorry, I thought you were making a joke - pretending to complain that everyone, except you, knew the Middle Way. ------------- H: > How do you know I was or not grumpy when I wrote that? ------------- I didn't think you were genuinely grumpy, and I still don't know what you meant by "It seems that you know what is the Middle Way, I don't." ---------------- H: > Ah!, now I understand why you see different things than I. ---------------- I don't know what that means, either. :-) --------- KH: > > Rahula, like the > deva king, had vast accumulations of right understanding but was > still a learner when the discourse was given. H: > Cool, how do you know that? Ah!, maybe in the same way you know I was grumpy when I wrote that. Ken, do you cling to a self? Ken, are mental defilements ever present in your mind? Ken, have you ever considered you may be wrong? Maybe you tried the Suttas before, then did some meditation, and after a while you found out that it was not "working" so you decided to try the Abhidhamma, was that the path you followed, or you just started with the Abhidhamma, dropped the meditation and stayed there? I'd like to know what Path did you follow since you "became" a Buddhist, that would be more helpful than just discussing possible interpretations and "guesses" your mind or mind can give out of a written text. > ------------- I said I was guessing the meaning of the suttas because that's all I can do without expert help. When I first became a Buddhist, I followed pretty much the same path (no Abhidhamma, just sitting meditation, mindfulness of activities and that sort of thing) that you are following now. That must sound patronising, I'm sorry, but you did ask. Now, I admit to knowing almost nothing. But, as you have noticed, I do go on as if I know everything. Accumulated tendencies override my better judgement. :-) Ken H 42496 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:48pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** Cetasikas never arise by themselves, they always accompany citta and other cetasikas. Therefore, when we study cetasikas, we should also study the different cittas they accompany. There are other cetasikas besides the ‘universals’ which can arise with the citta, but there have to be at least the seven ‘universals’ with every citta. There are ten types of cittas which are accompanied only by the ‘universals’, not by other cetasikas. These are the ‘five pairs’ (dvipañcaviññåùa) which are: seeing-consciousness, hearingconsciousness, smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness and body-consciousness. These cittas are ahetuka (rootless) vipåkacittas which can be either kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka and therefore, they are “five pairs”. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 42497 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Hugo I gave some general comments in response to your post, and said I would reply to your individual questions later, so here goes. >>>Does this mean that I should stop worrying about keeping the 5 >>>precepts, meditation, keeping a calm mind and go and party all-night >>>on weekends as long as I don't think that it is "me" who is partying? >>>and as long as I see all those ladies dancing around as just a stream >>>of cittas (nice and curvy cittas by the way)? >>> > >The next question is in a polite way: >Could you please answer my question? > > There is no straight 'yes' or 'no' answer here. The development of insight is something that potentially may occur at any time regardless of what we are doing, so the focus is not on doing or not doing this or that particular thing, or seeing things in this or that particular way (a kind of doing also). If your question is about supporting conditions, then the answer is any and all kinds of kusala are to be encouraged, but particularly and essentially the factors that I mentioned earlier and that you have commented on below. I hope I have answered your question -- please let me know if not. >>Right view is developed by the occurrence of a combination of factors: >>hearing the dhamma explained in a way that is suitable for our level of >>understanding, reflecting on what we have heard, and considering the >>application of what has thus been realised intellectually to the present >>moment. >> >> > >Isn't the above a description of a "practice"? > >Here you are telling me the factors, if I know them shouldn't I go and >look to get them? > > Well, these are the factors given by the Buddha. Now the question is, were they given as things to be *done as a practice*, or were they given as things to know about so that with that knowledge our lives can be better directed? The reason I am inclined to think the latter is that the hearing of the true dhamma spoken/presented in a way that is suitable for us is very hard to come by and is to a large extent (but not entirely) dependent on our past deeds. But at least with the knowledge of the importance of this factor, we can make the most of what opportunities do come along. >>How do these factors come about? Well one of the ways they can occur is >>by participating in useful discussion with others who also have some >>knowledge of the teachings and are likewise trying to understand them, >>such as we are fortunate to find on this list. >> >> > >Yes, as long as we decide to subscribe to the list, read the posts, >and post something of our own, all of which require making a decision >of doing it. > > Yes, all actions require intention, no argument about that. But are the things you have just mentioned things that are to be done *as part of 'a practice'*? >> I think you'd agree that >>your recent positing is proving to be a condition for a lot of >>reflection on what you have heard and read previously (and continue to >>read here). >> >> > >huh?, isn't it the reverse........my recent postings proved to be a >RESULT of a lot of reflection of what I had heard and read >previously......but not only that but it is a RESULT of also all the >meditation sessions I have gone through, and all the experiments I >have set up and analyzed, and all the changes I have made to "my >practice" (i.e. including chanting, etc.). > > Yes, that too. But let's not forget or underestimate the value of the useful reflection that goes on almost unnoticed during the day as a result of participation in discussions like this. >> Yet would you call your participation here 'doing something >>in order to develop right view? -- I don't think so. >> >> > >Huh? > >YES, I would say that my participation here is "doing something"!!!! > > My question was meant to be: Would you call your participation here "doing something *in order to develop right view*" (sorry for the typo)? Again, every moment of our waking lives can be described in terms of 'doing something', so that is not the issue here, as I see it. > ... > >Now, as I said in another post, I don't think we can "make right view >appear", but we can "arrange", "encourage", "at least not put more >rocks in the way" the conditions that will let right view to arise. > > Yes, but presumably we are all doing as much as we are capable of right now, given our (limited) level of understanding and the circumstances in which we find ourselves (both of which we must take as 'givens'). As long as we don't have the idea that the development of kusala is technically impossible at this very moment, or that conditions would be so much better if only things were different, or conditions will be so much better when (whatever, whatever later event or set of circumstances occurs), then there will be no rocks in the way of right view arising. >Thanks for your reply, I hope you keep this thread going, > > Happy to, if you are ;-)) Jon 42498 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Howard Thanks for setting out a little more clearly how you see things as regards sense-door experiences. This will I'm sure make possible a more meaningful discussion. I think what you are saying is that there is a distinction to be drawn between 'felt hardness' (that which is present at a moment of body-door consciousness) and the 'alleged/assumed hardness in the external object' (not being something that is directly experienced at a moment of body-door consciousness). And from your previous posts I gather you to say that the hardness of the Abhidhamma is the latter rather than the former. I believe your understanding of the Abhidhamma in this respect to be mistaken. When the Abhidhamma talks about hardness it refers to whatever it is that is the object of body-door consciousness, and likewise with visible object and sound vis-a-vis seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness. The Abhidhamma does not contemplate a hardness that is 'in the external object', since its frame of reference is not conventional objects. Putting it another way, only phenomena that are capable of being experienced through one or other of the 6 doorways make it into the list of rupas mentioned in the Abhidhamma. Rupas are not posited as being aspects of external objects, as existing in a 'world out there'. The rupa of sound is that which is being experienced by hearing consciousness at this very moment; that is the starting point. The difference between your descriptoin and what is contemplated by the Abhidhamma, as I would see it, is that you do not regard the hardness that is present at a moment of body-door consciousness (your 'felt hardness') as being the direct experience of the (assumed) hardness that impinges on the body-door, but as being something that is derived from that impingement (perhaps in the sense of passing through some other medium?). Now, assuming I have correctly understood your post, I would be interested to know: 1/ What is the basis for the idea that the presently felt hardness is not the direct experience of hardness that impinges on the body-sense? 2/ What paramattha dhammas (as you use that term) are present at a moment of experience of 'felt hardness'? Thanks again for going to the trouble to set things out in some detail (but I just have to ask, what took you so long? ;-)). Jon > Let me give an analogy. ... The hardness in the table and the felt hardness are two different things, with the former a condition for the latter. ... What is it that are directly experienced? My answer: the experiences. What is it that are *known* to arise? My answer: the experiences. What is it that *can* be directly known to exist, albeit fleeingly? My answer: the experiences. Might there be external phenomena that underlie and cause these experiences, as biophysics concludes? Certainly. ... Can I directly *know* it from my experiences? No, I can only directly know the experiences themselves. > > 42499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna Hi, Tep Thanks for quoting this sutta. It contains much to reflect on. According to the commentary as quoted in the BB translation, the passage 'discernment that is basic to the holy life' means 'insight serving as the foundation for the holy life of the noble path', in other words, mundane insight. So this particular teaching need not be seen as limited to monks alone. The references to monks life, Patimokha etc. must I think be read in the context of this being a sutta spoken to an audience of monks and thus slanted to their particular situation (and not, for example, as proclaiming the special merits of the monks life--although there are of course suttas that do that). However, the individual factors mentioned in the sutta all have their counterpart for the lay-person, as I see it, so the sutta is relevant for all 4 groups of followers. You mentioned conditions #1 and #4 as applying to monks only. I think condition #1 is the same as the 'association with the wise person' that we meet in other contexts, and the respect that is due to that person, while condition #4 is a reference to sila in general and the guarding of the sense-doors (i.e., mindfulness) rather than the mere compliance with the rules of conduct. I hope these comments make sense to you. Please let me know if there are any other aspects of the sutta that you would like to discuss. Jon >According to a sutta, there are 8 conditions that "lead to the acquiring >of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and >to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which >has already been acquired": > >1. Living in apprenticeship to the Teacher or "a respectable comrade >in the holy life" with established "strong sense of conscience, fear of >blame, love, & respect". >2. Approaching the Teacher/comrade with Dhamma questions. >3. Achieving seclusion in body and seclusion in mind. >4. Dwelling restrained "in accordance with the Patimokha" ..."having >undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults". >5. After having heard so much, one retains what one has heard and >memorize it all well. Also by discussing, accumulating, examining and >well penetrating the Dhamma. >6. Keeping one's persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental >qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities" and not shirking >one's duties "with regard to skillful mental qualities"(kusala dhammas). >7. Speaking Dhamma or inviting another to do so and feeling "no >disdain for noble silence". >8. Remaining "focused on arising & passing away with regard to the >five aggregates" (panca-khandha). > >Panna Sutta, AN VIII.2 >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-002.html > 42500 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Howard, (TG & Carl at the end) I agreed with nearly all your comments in your response to me on desirable/undesirable rupas. The Robs, Carl, TG, Nina and others have already made many good points too, but I meant to add just a little more in reply as I know it's been a bit of a thorny point. --- upasaka@a... wrote: <¡K> > Of course most folks, most of the time, will find mango sweet, but some > on > occasions, will not. But "mango taste" is not a paramattha dhamma. When > someone > doesn't taste sweetness, the rupa of sweetness is not present in that > mindstream. > ----------------------------------- ¡K S: I think you¡¦re right to stress what is being directly experienced and I don¡¦t think there¡¦s any disagreement about this. If there¡¦s no taste of sweetness, no paramattha dhamma of sweetness is experienced. ¡K. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sweetness does not reside in "the land of lost rupas" or in a > mango > pa~n~natti. When there is sweet taste, that is where there is sweetness. > > Sweetness arises and ceases. Certainly, people generally think of mangos > as "things" > that are inherently sweet. That is all conventional thought and speech - > it is > abbreviational. It is a fact that 99% (say) of the time the sequence of > experiences that we call "someone eating a mango" occurs, there is a > sweetness > experience. And so we SAY "Mangos are sweet." ¡K S: OK ¡K. > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > No rupas are sweet tasting. ¡K. S: This is the same point as other discussions about whether there are any rupas if they are not experienced and whether such rupas have inherent characteristics. On the one hand, you¡¦re perfectly correct to say that if they are not experienced (in this case if there is no vipaka citta of tasting arising, to experience the taste), they cannot be said to ¡¥exist¡¦. On the other hand, we can say that many, many rupas are arising and falling away all the time (in the body, in the garden outside your window, on the moon or wherever) which are not being directly experienced. To talk about them is conceptual only as you say. However, if they were not arising and falling, there¡¦d be no chance of ever experiencing the ¡¥sweetness¡¦ or ¡¥hardness¡¦ or other characteristics when they are contacted. ¡K.. >Sweet taste *is* a rupa, a > tongue-door > rupa. Also, we know what is meant by "sweet". It is a direct experience. > It is a > paramattha dhamma. We also know what pleasant feeling is and what > unpleasant > feeling is. They are also paramatthic. What we do *not* know is what the > vague > terms "desirable" and "undesirable" mean, and that is the matter at > hand. ¡K. S: OK ¡K H:> What does it mean for a paramattha dhamma to be desirable? As I > see > it, a specific category of paramattha dhamma such as "sweet taste" is > said to be > desirable "to a given person" in case most sweet tastes are pleasant > dhammas > for that person. But as soon as we talk of a *category* of paramattha > dhammas, > we have entered the realm of conventional speech. A *specific* sweet > taste, > with a particular intensity of sweetness, in a particular mindstream, is > either > pleasant or not. ¡K. S: Yes, no disagreement and you have stressed all that is of importance here. Usually, when we refer to ¡¥desirable¡¦ it is usually because attachment deems it so after the sweet taste has been experienced. The fact that rupas may inherently be desirable regardless of any perception can only be speculated about just as you say. It¡¦s impossible to know directly at any given moment whether vipaka is experiencing an inherently desirable/undesirable object I believe, but I don¡¦t think it¡¦s hard to accept that kusala and akusala vipaka do experience different tastes and they can be categorized in this way and that one kind is likely to lead to attachment and one kind to aversion. ¡K H:> There are all sorts of criteria for what makes a pa~n~natti > desirable ¡K S: Now that would just be by thinking with attachment or aversion about say a colour. Some like red and some like blue. Quite a different question. ¡K. H:>A specific paramattha > dhamma is > neither desirable nor undesirable in the same way as a pa~n~natti. It is > either > pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. A sweetness rupa that is pleasant is > different > from the rare sweetness rupa that is unpleasant. ¡K. S: Yes, but as soon as we speculate or try to guess which are ¡¥inherently¡¦ pleasant, it is conceptual again. We can only generalize and say that some tastes are pleasant and some unpleasant as the texts do. If this weren¡¦t so, there wouldn¡¦t be the following perceptions about good and bad tastes. In the end, it just depends on what is experienced as a result of kamma at any time. ¡K. H:>When we say that the > pleasant > rupas are desirable, what we mean is that we desire the presence of > pleasant > rupas. That's all. And that is a fact. So long as there is desire at > all, it > is always pleasant sensations that are desired. ¡K S: Exactly and well said. ¡K H:>If A desires a sensation > that > is widely viewed as unpleasant, that is because the version of that > sensation > that A experiences is pleasant. Not just pleasant to *him/her*, but just > plain > pleasant. Anyone who would experience *that very sensation*, would find > it to > be pleasant. ¡K S: Well, usually, but not always I think. One may desire a cold shower or swim knowing it will be unpleasant, but knowing one will feel the benefit later ƒº but rupas are experienced in such rapid succession that kusala and akusala vipaka experience pleasant and unpleasant sensations at different moments even whilst taking that plunge. ¡K H:>That is what it means for desirability/undesirability to be > > inherent in the sensation. The rupa itself is intrinsically pleasant or > not, and > that is not a matter of being in the eye of the beholder. ¡K S: Exactly! This is just what we¡¦re saying and you¡¦ve expressed it well. ¡K H:>What is "in > the eye of > the beholder" is not how a rupa seems, but what particular rupa is > observed. > We may conventionally identify the pressure sensation I feel with the > pressure > sensation you feel, but that is mere convention. They are not the same > sensation, and even if they differ *only* in their vedanic taste, that > is sufficient > to make them different. ¡K S: YES! We may both taste the same mango, but by kamma and other conditions, ¡¥my¡¦ taste may of an inherently pleasant rupa and ¡¥yours¡¦ the opposite. We may both think we¡¦ve experienced good tastes or not. So many factors at work at any given time. The thinking and sanna or remembrance of past experiences can determine how it seems to have been experienced. So, I think there¡¦s little or no disagreement. You asked Rob M about the criterion and this can only be according to what vipaka experiences at any given moment in terms of direct experience. The same applies to hardness or taste or any other rupa experienced, even though rupas arise and fall with their own characteristics regardless of whether they are ever sensed. As for perversion of perception, we use it generally or conventionally when we talk about liking something undesirable, for example, but in terms of paramattha dhammas, sanna vipallasa refers to the perception which arises with any unwholesome citta. So attachment to the desirable or aversion to the undesirable or ignorance of either are also accompanied by sanna vipallasa. The ¡¥majority thing¡¦ in the texts is just to indicate that some tastes or sensations are generally experienced one way or another. That¡¦s all. Like you and TG said, ¡¥conditions including and especially mental predispositions are the determining factors as to what is considered desirable or undesirable¡¦. Carl, I was very glad to read your input in this thread and to see you found the section in Useful Posts ¡V [¡¥Rupas ¡V inherent qualities¡K.¡¦,for anyone else]. Your posts show you're reflecting a lot on the Abhidhamma and its application and that's good to see. I don¡¦t think I¡¦ve added anything new here, but had meant to reply to you, Howard, just to say that I appreciate your points. Metta, Sarah p.s I was very glad to see your and Rob K¡¦s kind replies to Andrew L on his scary experience. ============================ 42501 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:45am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Phil, Phil: It turns out that it won't be a series. "Events on the ground" as they say are overrunning my Dhamma study - of course those events are Dhamma too - so I will only be able to respond to what you've written here. James: Okay. I think that some members will be disappointed, because they enjoyed reading the dialogue, but that's kamma. Good luck on your move. Hope it goes smoothly (moving is gross dukkha! ;- )) Phil: The Buddha that Dhamma discussion is one of the factors of enlightenment (or "for" enlightenment - I can't remember) and is important for the cultivation of wisdom. And there is the importance of "good friends in Dhamma." James: I have long sung the praises of this group (especially in light of some really awful groups out there) but this group isn't everything. I guess the middle way should also be kept in mind when participating in this group. Don't become attached/addicted to this group, make it your whole life, and then neglect the real dhamma practice. This group has been the catalyst for me to study more of the original Buddha word and commentaries, so that is a good thing; however, this group has also built in my mind a subtle aversion to the Buddha's teachings of anatta and panna due to the manner they are frequently presented in this group (with conceit), which is a bad thing. So, I guess you have to keep everything in perspective. Group participation is often difficult for me specifically because of the psychic vibes I pick up from the members, but this group has predominately peaceful members so it isn't too bad (doesn't matter if you believe in that or not- it's my perspective). The Buddha taught in a sutta that one should use intuition to determine when to practice mindfulness, when to meditate, when to study, when to work, etc. So, you have to listen to your heart to determine what is best suited for you, and make sure that your craving isn't speaking the loudest. Therefore, people are going to be different in their approaches because people are different and at different points in their lives. (If you notice, I don't advertise how often I meditate, or how many retreats I have attended, or how much I study Buddhism, or how many monks have been my teachers, etc. because it doesn't matter. I am me and no one else has to be like me.) Phil: I could only remember that there was a day in which Larry asked "what is detachment?" and it set off an interesting chain of events in my mind that led to deeper insight into the khandas. James: That's great! I think Larry's a great one with his penetrating questions. Phil: THe bhavana aspect of DSG can come at unexpected moments. As I wrote a couple of weeks ago and mentionned several times to Sarah's amusement(?) a sidebar comment she made about the fellow she lives with, in itself just a passing commment, triggered for me an important insight into how the important thing is not stories about people and their characters, but the kusala and akusala being cultivated and eradicated. There are so many examples. James: That's great, but I still don't think that qualifies as bhavana. From my perspective, these types of understandings will be the conditions for bhavana to occur later on. Bhavana, from my understanding, is mental development using calm and insight- in other words, meditation. So, these understandings you are getting are fantastic (and pretty deep for a self-proclaimed `beginner') but they aren't the end of the process. Phil: I think of the insight you had into the way your speech has been conditioned by your fathers, and I'm sure you've had more insight into the way your speech has mellowed and less abrasive over the past few months. Is that the result of a willed decision on your part, or are there other factors at work? James: ;-)) I think that this is just a matter of perspective. Really, what I have been making a decision about over the past few months is just to post a lot less. I have been distancing myself from DSG. Many members get upset by my posts and they either take it out on me on-list or they send a flurry of off-list messages to the moderators. Who needs that kind of headache? It is best if I just keep a low profile. I think my speech is the same because I was recently lambasted on another new list I joined about being an insensitive jerk who makes the members uncomfortable to express their thoughts. Oh, that was lovely. ;-)) However, when I stop posting then I get a lot of psychic vibes from members that they would like me to start posting again. So I guess I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't! ;-)) Phil: I suppose I have rambled on this point motivated by wisdom conditioning a speedy return to DSG after we move. James: I'm surprised that Naomi is so patient with all of your Internet and Buddhist group participation. Honestly, I have often wondered about that. I think it is difficult to balance a relationship and an intense Buddhist practice. Phil: They were talking about Buddaghosa, and how people reject him simply on the basis of his mistaken measurement of the moon. It had a sectarian feeling to it, James: Really? I didn't know that Buddhaghosa had a mistaken measurement of the moon. I am the real odd ball because I reject Buddhaghosa based on psychic readings! ;-)) Phil: and there was another point in which someone mentionned the "the suttas can't be understood by conventional reading because they were given to people who already were on the verge of enlightenment and could understood the implicit deep meaning easily" idea. That annoyed me last night, James: I don't know about all that. Personally, I think that a teaching directly from an enlightened Buddha is naturally going to have a much more profound impact on a person than reading suttas in cold, black and white. Though, accumulations may have some bearing on the matter also. Again, the middle way. Phil: James, I've got to run. Could you hold your reply until tomorrow? I may or may not have time (and energy) to continue tonight. Thanks. James: This is an unusual request because I don't know what time is `tomorrow' for you- I am in Cairo and you are in Japan! ;-)) I am going to post now and let the chips fall where they may. You don't have to reply right away; feel free to get your business taken care of first. Take care. Metta, James 42502 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Old Kamma: Charles I know a woman in Finland named Maya, and your posts sound like her words, so I thought I was getting luckily (now she is finally on the internet). I was born in the city (Bronx NY). Currently I live in the middle of Denmark . ~CharlesD PS: I am also ----- Original Message ----- From: Waters Illusion To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2005 22:28 Subject: [dsg] Old Kamma: Charles I was born in Indonesia but currently reside in TX, USA. What makes you think i'm from Finland? :P just curious...of all the countries in the world, why Finland? What about yourself? Where are u from? ~Maya "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 42503 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation I hope this applies here: "Love and live the Dharma first and foremost (in mind, body (action) and speech), then do as you will." This my not be the right view, but it is a good view. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 19 February, 2005 08:03 Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Hugo >>>Does this mean that I should stop worrying about keeping the 5 >>>precepts, meditation, keeping a calm mind and go and party all-night >>>on weekends as long as I don't think that it is "me" who is partying? >>>and as long as I see all those ladies dancing around as just a stream >>>of cittas (nice and curvy cittas by the way)? > >The next question is in a polite way: >Could you please answer my question? > There is no straight 'yes' or 'no' answer here. The development of insight is something that potentially may occur at any time regardless of what we are doing, so the focus is not on doing or not doing this or that particular thing, or seeing things in this or that particular way (a kind of doing also). If your question is about supporting conditions, then the answer is any and all kinds of kusala are to be encouraged, but particularly and essentially the factors that I mentioned earlier and that you have commented on below. I hope I have answered your question -- please let me know if not. <....> 42504 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard Your message did not upset me, In the beginning it did shock me, then that passed and confusion was born, then that passed and concern was born which gave rise to logical thinking again. So I figured I needed more input, so I had to inquire further. I think it is fun getting at the bottom of things, and you presented something new to get to the bottom of. That's all. During the confusion, I did begin to think at some point I must have offended you, or you were applying a moderately extreme measure to discrete what I had posted. And then concern was born ... ~CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2005 21:49 Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/18/05 3:22:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: > > Are you trying to say I should not be posting? --------------------------------- Howard: No, I'm not. You are getting angry for no reason. I was merely pointing out that too much can be made of inference, and I quoted the Kalama Sutta to back that up. --------------------------------- > > I do-not recall the Kalama Sutta saying, "Don't got by ... logical > conjecture, ..." Especially being the Buddha did it him self. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I quoted the sutta directly from the Access to Insight site. I didn't search for a particularly odd translation. I have no axe to grind. ---------------------------------- <...> 42505 From: nina Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:16am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 139 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 139 and Tiika Intro: The term samaadhi, concentration, denotes a cetasika that is also called ekkagataa cetasika, one-pointedness. This cetasika accompanies each citta, it is one of the universals. Thus, it accompanies kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Each citta experiences only one object and ekkagataa cetasika or samaadhi is the cetasika that has the function of focussing on that one object. Even when we are distracted, as we say in conventional language, there is citta experiencing one object and it is accompanied by samaadhi or ekkagataa cetasika that focusses on that object. Samaadhi has different qualities according as it accompanies different cittas. When it accompanies akusala citta it is called wrong concentration, micchaa-samaadhi, and when it accompanies kusala citta it is called right concentration, sammaa-samaadhi. In this context of the Visuddhimagga, sammaa-samaadhi accompanying kusala citta with paññaa is dealt with. Right concentration is one of the jhaana-factors developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances. Right concentration of vipassanaa is one of the factors of the eightfold Path that focusses on the object of vipassanaa. **** Text Vis. 139: It puts (aadhiyati) consciousness evenly (sama"m) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammaa) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samaadhaana) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samaadhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. N: The Tiika explains that non-wandering (avisaara) is its own nature and, as to its characteristic of non-distraction (avikkhepo), that by this dhamma the accompanying dhammas are non-distracted. Citta and cetasikas share the same object and it is the characteristic of samaadhi that they experience that one object. Text Vis.: Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. The Tiika explains that it is manifested as peace because the citta is peaceful and opposed to agitation. We should remember that in this context the Vis. deals with samaadhi accompanying mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa. Text Vis.:Usually its proximate cause is bliss. The Tiika adds to Œusually¹, Œmost of the time¹. It states: ŒBut concentration (samaadhi) can also be without happy feeling.¹ Bliss is the translation of sukha, happy feeling. When jhaana is developed, sukha is one of the jhaanafactors, and this is the proximate cause of concentration; it assists in suppressing the hindrances so that there is concentration on the meditation subject. Sukha is abandoned at the highest stage of ruupa-jhaana (the fifth stage of the fivefold system). At that stage sukha is no longer needed as proximate cause for concentration and the jhaanacitta is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Vis. text: It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. **** N: The Expositor (I, Part IV, Ch I, 118.119) gives a similar definition but states with regard to the manifestation of samaadhi: The Expositor states: The Expositor also uses a simile given in the , where concentration is compared to a king and the accompanying dhammas to an army that follows the king. The King in battle goes where the army is giving way, and the army becomes reinforced, the hostile army being broken. We read: <...so concentration, from not allowing the co-existent states to be thrown out and scattered, has non-distraction as its characteristic.> The Expositor (same section, 122) explains that samaadhi is a controlling faculty, an indriya. We read: The indriyas of confidence (saddhaa), energy (viriya), mindfulness (sati), concentration (samaadhi) and paññaa have to be developed together. They are among the thirityseven factors pertaining to enlightenment. The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 35,36) states about concentration as jhaana-factor that is supported by the other jhaana-factors: <...one-pointedness, which perpetuates itself by its function of concentrating, perfectly places consciousness and its associated dhammas evenly on the identical object, and, by way of balance of the faculties, perfectly maintains calm by the absence of sluggishness and restlessness, with opposing dhammas being kept at bay... concentration opposes sense-desire, because of its being directly opposed to the wish of greed, for one-pointedness brings about a concentrating of the consciousness which [otherwise] roams about attracted by various objects under the influence of sense-desire.> Right understanding that precisely knows when the citta is kusala and when aksuala is indispensable for the development of samatha. Otherwise the jhaana-factors cannot perform their functions of suppressing the hindrances. Right concentration as path-factor performs its function in vipassanaa. Sammaa-samaadhi focusses on the object of vipassanaa in the right way. As a path-factor it has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path. When right understanding arises, there is right concentration which is conascent with it. There are many types of concentration and many levels of it. We can be easily deluded and take for sammaa-samaadhi what is miccha-samaadhi. We are inclined to take samaadhi for Œmy concentration¹, and therefore, it is important to remember that it is only a dhamma conditioned by many different factors. It is conditioned by the citta it accompanies and by the conascent cetasikas. When it is conascent with lobha it is wrong concentration. *** Nina. 42506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: end fifth precept question + 2 more Hi Rob M and Tonia, The Path of Purification, Visuddhimagga, is an Encyclopedia of Buddhism written by the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. It deals with siila, samaadhi and paññaa. Several people find this a good book for beginners as well. Larry posts parts of Ch XIV, every week, and I add some comments from the subcommentary, the Tiika. Tonia, you can try it and ask what you find unclear. We welcome questions. This is a way to learn little by little. For instance you read the word cetasika, and then you can ask: what is cetasika. Just an example. Nina. op 18-02-2005 02:36 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. This text is the > starting point for the serious student of the Abhidhamma. Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation and commentary on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha > called "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" (CMA) is an excellent > reference for the serious beginner. 42507 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG >I guess that then leaves the question...what is a mind object? The criteria >it has to meet is this: > >1) A mind-object has to be an object primarily associated with "being mind." >2) It has to be an object by which consciousness and mental factors can arise >in association with it. >3) It has to incompass the scope of meanings and uses as found in the >"mind-object section/analysis" of the Satipatthana Sutta. > > I think you are looking for something that doesn't exist! If by 'mind object' you mean the object of consciousness, there is no thing or things that have as characteristic the fact of being object of consciousness. Consciousness may experience any rupa, or any citta or cetasika other than the currently arising one (itself), or it may think (have concept as its object). But there is no single class of things that constitute the group 'mind object'. >Based on this criteria, I cannot get away from concluding that a mind-object >is at least in part; plain and simple "thinking and analysis." It is >discriminating thought and in my view aslo incorporates mindfulness of feelings and >other mental factors. > >You will need to read carefully the Satipatthana Sutta and see what it >considers "mind-object" and draw your own conclusions. > > I think you'll find the Satipatthana Sutta does not specify what a mind-object is. In that sutta, dhammas are classified as four-fold (rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma), and the last of these is sometimes translated as 'mind-object', but it is a grouping for everything not included in the other 3 categories (or more correctly, for all dhammas even including those covered in the other 3 categories). Jon 42508 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" wrote: > > Well Joop, > > First of all sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't trying to ignore you or > anything, but since this yahoo group has lots of traffic and there's so many > posts in one day, it's hard for me to keep track of who said what and when. > But anyways, back to topic... Hallo Waters Illusion Thanks for your reaction. No problem it took some days. Time is not important to me. I agree with nearly everything you wrote, but I knew and practiced already most of it. But what surprises me is that you did not react on the main part of my message, especially my first point. From the quote of me you included in this message I mention the headings: - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". In short: Isn't it better to behave in a ethical way without thinking on deserving something in the future? - You talk about "actions … stored up in your citta". In short: using the information-storage metaphore for kamma is too easy. Metta Joop > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" > wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Joop, > > > > > > The way I look at kamma, which I hope will help you understand > > > better, is like a habit pattern since the literal meaning of kamma > > > is "action/volition". > > ... > > > > Hallo Waters Illusion (if you want to be called with that name) > > > > Your explanation about kamma is rather clear, it does help my > > understanding. > > Still I have some problems: > > - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". A property > > of the ethics connected with the kamma-concept is that is future- > > directed, it's about the effects of my intentional behavior in the > > future. But I don't behave in a ethical way because of some effect, I > > do it because of my conscience, of the memory that I have taken the > > five precepts. I try to live in the here and now and not being > > interested in the future of me (or I get better say: 'of somebody' > > because who is me?). > > - You talk about "actions … stored up in your citta". As I said in > > another message: how does that work, how can billions of bits of > > intentions technically been stored in a citta, a volatile phenomena ? > > - You talk about "the realm that you are reborn". I don't know if > > that happens, but that's not a topic of understanding, it's a topic > > of (not)believing: in rebirth. > > > > Metta > > > > Joop 42509 From: Philip Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:30am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James I'll carry on with the rest of this reply and then move on to the other one. Thanks for the other one, BTW. Sure, no reason for our dialogue to be cut off permanently by my move, but it will be a few weeks at least. Carrying on... > James: I'm glad that you realize this. The journey for one who > practices the Buddha's teaching is not supposed to be long. Yes, we > have gone through countless lifetimes, experienced the joys of > heaven and the tortures of hell, had some insights and then lost > them again, but it was all for naught. Only following the Noble > Eightfold Path will lead to the end of the cycle of samsara, and it > is not supposed to take countless more lifetimes (unless one aspires > to become a Buddha). I just don't know about this, and except when it comes to discussing this point with someone here (you, or in the past Bhante V, or Andrew L) I don't think about it. Honestly, I don't dwell on results. Developing my understanding of what is happening moment by moment is more than enough, though of course the mind does proliferate on all kinds of vaguely Dhamma-related topics, with conceit, and so on. I worry about the temporal future, getting old and being poor in this lifetime. But I don't think about nibanna, or any of the earlier stages of enlightenment. The discussions about which akusala is eradicated at which stage never grab my attention. Maybe they should. Maybe my lack of interest in stages of enlightenment is a symptom of not truly being motivated to seek enlightenment, a symptom of a pseudo-Buddhist just playing with Dhamma to make life a little richer. That's possible. The only time I deeply feel I would like to get out of samsara is when I am miserable, and that is not the way it is supposed to be. So I appreciate your insistence on the real possibility of enlightenment in this lifetime. I have said the same thing to Andrew L. It has still not got me motivated to seek it but who knows what will come? For now, I will continue to develop a tendency to focus on the moment, to develop my understanding of the reality of life rising and falling with each citta. Of course I am not nearly there yet. > Phil: But it seems very clear to me that the implication of all that > grime is accumulated is that we *cannot* develop sati in a hurry. > > James: I am not advocating developing sati in a `hurry' either. One > has to be reasonable about how long it will take, considering the > time dedicated to the practice and the availability of a good > teacher when difficulties arise. However, it is not automatically > supposed to take aeons! That is what K. Sujin said, I heard it with > my own ears, and I don't agree with that perspective and believe it > is contrary to the Buddha's teaching. I still haven't come across it again yet, but as I said before in one of the talks the topic of the 7 years...7 months...7 weeks etc in the satipatthana sutta comes up, someone brings it up, and there is a bit of tsk tsking by a few folks about taking that literally, and someone asks Kh Sujin about it, says it *is* possible, right, and she says sure, it's possible. You can't tell that she's not that interested in speculating on it. That's not surprising. She is always trying to bring people back to the moment. The same with the discussion I mentionned yesterday about Buddhagosa and the moon. You could tell she wasn't interested in discussing that, it was other people who were. She's interested in one's happening here and now and insists on that. That's why those talks are so good, and I hope you have the mp3. If you stay open to it, and listen, you'll see the appeal. I honestly don't know why you see her as being so misguided. It's so pure, just bringing experience down to it's barest elements. What is wrong or threatening about that? That she says it will take many lifetimes? I really don't think she insists on that, but even if she does, so what? You know otherwise. Fine. It doesn't interfere with the gist of her method, which is bare experience. That it is based on much Buddhagosa? I know you have had psychic insights into him that have gotten you riled up about him. I haven't studied my Vism enough to comment on Buddhagosa. > Phil: If we spend enough time absorbed in Samyutta NIkaya, reflectng > on khandas, how can such a concern about > this one lifetime persist? What is the hurry? > > James: The hurry is that one needs to develop the insight to become > a sotapanna in this lifetime or risk the possibility of forever > remaining in the cycle of samsara. There are some levels of > existence where the possibilities of creating enough merit or > insight to escape are very slim to none. Yes, what I said above was stupid. There is reason to press ahead, but not to go about it in a frantic way. All captured in the very first sutta in Samyutta Nikaya, about crossing the flood. You know the one. When I pressed ahead I was swept about, when I stood still, I sank. That wonderful paradox. What I said above is paramount to sinking. But if one is too intentional in one's approach to developing sati and panna, one will be pressing too strong and will be swept away. > K. Sujin states that > insight must develop over numerous lifetimes but insight doesn't > work that way. Insight doesn't accumulate from lifetime to lifetime > unless there is a sincere effort to make it accumulate. There is sincere effort, when sincere effort arises. Sincere effort can't be had by constantly saying "I will make a sincere effort." When I first started at this group, I had trouble understanding the language of the four right efforts, all that striving and rousing and whatnot, but I have begun to see that how these things come and go due to conditions. There's not much doubt in my mind about that now. I am very grateful that I am coming to appreciate moments of effort when they come. Often they come in a consecutive way that make it seem like a stretch of right efffort. But they are small moments of right effort, citta by citta. I can see that now. And of course the same applies for insight. If you sit down and try to have an insight of course it will be a self-defating (self-promoting, actually) exercise. Obviously. As for the accumulation from lifetime to lifetime, I don't know. I still have trouble understanding how accumulations work. > The > defilements are must stronger and persistent than insight and they > will defile the aspirant's mind in a relatively short time span?E> insight doesn't last for aeons in the worldling. James, I don't understand this. Nothing lasts for aeons, of course. Nothing lasts for more than a moment. That's Dhamma 101, isn't it? And enlightenment, the stages of enlightenment, and finally nibanna come in moments, not in solid stretches. I guess the idea of maggacitta (that is the term for the enlightenment moment citta, if I recall) is another thing you don't agree with. And I agree that defilements are more common, by far, than wholesome cittas, and by being more common will have more conditioning impact, but is a single wholesome citta any more or less "strong or persistent" than a single unwholesome citta? It's bedtime and I'm getting sleepy, so I can't recall. But the above bit looks a bit wonky to me, James. > Phil: James, do you honestly believe that this teaching applies to > householders in modern society, thousands of years removed from > being taught directly by the Buddha? > > James: Of course I do! The Buddha didn't put an expiration date on > his teaching. He put an expiration date on the sasana, but that is > a different matter. Oh this is a good chance for me to ask about this "sasana", which I often see. What does that mean? Is that the same as "dispensation?" I don't understand either term. That's off topic, but if you could fill me in on that, thanks. > Phil: I can imagine people with a calendar on the wall of their > minds, counting off the days. > > James: Oh, if only people were that mindful!! Unfortunately, most > people think they have all the time in the world and aren't mindful > of how much or how little they have accomplished, especially when it > comes to insight. I still think that for most people thoughts about accomplishing things or not accomplishing will be tied to this lifetime, and that means they will be tied to one's self-identity and therefore will not be helpful. And how can we know what we have accomplished when it comes to insight? We can speculate about our insight experiences, as I did the other day, but surely that is now real knowledge about them. I think it is wrong to think we can know what we have accomplished or not accomplished when it comes to insight. Tonight in an audio tape, someone asked Kh Sujin how we can know whether it is real sati, or not. And Kh Sujin responded. Panna knows. I know that is a phrase that bugs you and some other people. Panna knows. Panna will know. But I really think it is better to believe that than to believe James will know or Nina will know or whoever. > Phil: In your case, this might lead to confidence that progress has > been made and enlightenment can be believed to be around the corner. > > James: I don't believe that enlightenment is `around the corner' for > me. Lol. But I think that if it takes countless more lifetimes, I > have failed in this lifetime and have wasted the precious > opportunity of being born human during a Buddha sasana. That would > be a very grievous error, indeed. OK, I guess I can see what sasana means. A time in which the Buddha's teaching exists in the world. As I said yesterday, you're right here, and I appreciate your urgency in this sense. And your gratitude for being born during a Buddha sasana. But I also feel that any talk of failing in one's lifetime sounds tied to self- identity too much. Maybe. Maybe not. Interesting to think about. > Phil: So for me, this "seven days" teaching is absurd. I am not a > monk sitting in the presence of the Buddha, that's for sure. The > accumulations are *obviously* radically different in a way that > would make it absurd to think in terms of months let along weeks or > days. > > James: Phil, one does not need to be a monk to practice the Buddha's > teachings. Allow me to quote from the commentary notes of the > Satipatthana Sutta: > Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors > to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, > too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the > teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way > of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who > accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing > to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that > highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are > reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the > king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is > reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point > out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this > way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness > is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining > one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is > said: > "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, > Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm > To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. > An ascetic and mendicant too."[16] That's beautiful James, thanks. Oh, I thought the part about the Buddha's last words was coming up. I was all ready to ramble on "strive on with heedfulness" because I had a nice insight on that. Maybe next time! Metta, Phil p.s Sorry for any typos that come from not proofing my rambles. 42510 From: Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/19/05 2:45:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > Thanks for setting out a little more clearly how you see things as > regards sense-door experiences. This will I'm sure make possible a more > meaningful discussion. > > I think what you are saying is that there is a distinction to be drawn > between 'felt hardness' (that which is present at a moment of body-door > consciousness) and the 'alleged/assumed hardness in the external object' > (not being something that is directly experienced at a moment of > body-door consciousness). And from your previous posts I gather you to > say that the hardness of the Abhidhamma is the latter rather than the > former. > > I believe your understanding of the Abhidhamma in this respect to be > mistaken. When the Abhidhamma talks about hardness it refers to > whatever it is that is the object of body-door consciousness, and > likewise with visible object and sound vis-a-vis seeing consciousness > and hearing consciousness. The Abhidhamma does not contemplate a > hardness that is 'in the external object', since its frame of reference > is not conventional objects. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Okay, great. So Abhidhammic hardness is identical with "hardness experience"? Or are you saying that hardness is a rupa, independent of experience, that may sometimes be experienced and sometimes not? If this latter is the case, then this is where I disagree. The only confirmable rupa is the experiential rupa. There is no knowing of the alleged rupas floating around in the Land of Unexperienced Rupas. That there may be such a realm of unexperienced rupas is unknown and unknowable, and is thus of no relevance to anything. --------------------------------------- > > Putting it another way, only phenomena that are capable of being > experienced through one or other of the 6 doorways make it into the list > of rupas mentioned in the Abhidhamma. Rupas are not posited as being > aspects of external objects, as existing in a 'world out there'. The > rupa of sound is that which is being experienced by hearing > consciousness at this very moment; that is the starting point. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: For me, it is starting and ending point. The only knowable sounds are the experienced sounds. Beyond that, one goes into the realm of stories. They may be nice stories, useful stories, but just stories nonetheless. ------------------------------------- > > The difference between your descriptoin and what is contemplated by the > Abhidhamma, as I would see it, is that you do not regard the hardness > that is present at a moment of body-door consciousness (your 'felt > hardness') as being the direct experience of the (assumed) hardness that > impinges on the body-door, but as being something that is derived from > that impingement (perhaps in the sense of passing through some other > medium?). > --------------------------------- Howard: There might well be an assumed external hardness impinging on body door, but it is unknowable, because only the experienced is known. So I am not denying the existence of something, but merely pointing out the difference between the known and the unknowable. ---------------------------------- > > Now, assuming I have correctly understood your post, I would be > interested to know: > 1/ What is the basis for the idea that the presently felt hardness is > not the direct experience of hardness that impinges on the body-sense? > ---------------------------------- Howard: Please see my earlier explanation. --------------------------------- > 2/ What paramattha dhammas (as you use that term) are present at a > moment of experience of 'felt hardness'? > --------------------------------- Howard: You want the whole list? The main one is the hardness experienced. --------------------------------- > > Thanks again for going to the trouble to set things out in some detail > (but I just have to ask, what took you so long? ;-)). > > Jon ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42511 From: Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/19/05 5:31:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: > > Your message did not upset me, In the beginning it did shock me, then that > passed and confusion was born, then that passed and concern was born which > gave rise to logical thinking again. So I figured I needed more input, so I had > to inquire further. I think it is fun getting at the bottom of things, and > you presented something new to get to the bottom of. That's all. --------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! :-) Evidently it was I who misunderstood you. -------------------------------- > > During the confusion, I did begin to think at some point I must have > offended you, or you were applying a moderately extreme measure to discrete what I > had posted. And then concern was born ... ------------------------------- Howard: No, I was not offended at all, and I ceratinly didn't intend to offend. :-) -------------------------------- > > ~CharlesD > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42512 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:52 am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James and Phil, Please allow me to paste some of Ledi's sayadaw words on your discusssion of 7 days of practice. Ledi: A neyya is an individual who has not the capability of attaining the Paths and the Fruits through the hearing of a short discourse, or when it is expounded to him at some length, but is one for whom it is necessary to study and take careful note of the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for days, months, and years, in order that he may attain the Paths and the Fruits. This neyya class of individuals can again be sub-divided into many other classes according to the period of practice which each individual finds necessary before he can attain the Paths and the Fruits, and which further is dependent on the parami (perfections) which each of them has previously acquired, and the kilesa (defilements) which each has surmounted. These classes of individuals include, on the one hand, those for whom the necessary period of practice is seven days, and on the other, those for whom the necessary period of practice may extend to thirty or sixty years. Further classes also arise, as for example, in the case of individuals whose necessary peroid of practice is seven days, the stage of an arahat may be attained if effort is made in the first or second period of life,[3] which no more than the lower stages of the Paths and the Fruits can be attained if effort be made only in the third period of life. Then, again, putting forth effort for seven days means exerting as much as is in one's power to do so. If the effort is not of the highest order, the peroid of necessary effort becomes lengthened according to the laxity of the effort, and seven days may become seven years or longer. If the effort during this life is not sufficiently intense as to enable one to attain the Paths and the Fruits, then release from worldly ills cannot be obtained during the present Buddha Sasana, while release during future Buddha Sasanas can be obtained only if the individual encounters them. No release can be obtained if no Buddha Sasana is encountered. It is only in the case of individuals who have secured niyata vyakarana (sure prediction made by a Buddha), is an encounter with a Buddha Sasana and release from worldly ills certain. An individual who has not attained niyata vyakarana cannot be certain either of encountering a Buddha Sasana or achieving release from worldly ills, even though he has accumulated sufficient parami to make both these achievements possible. These are considerations in respect of those individuals who possess the capabilities of attaining the Paths and the Fruits by putting forth effort for seven days, but who have not obtained niyata vyakarana. Similar considerations apply to the cases of those individuals who have the potentiality of attaining the Paths and the Fruits by putting forth effort for fifteen days, or for longer periods. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm - kel 42513 From: Waters Illusion Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:21am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Joop, Sorry if i didn't address those questions earlier. I agree with your first point, of course it is better not to think about the outcome when performing a good action. In fact, one should not hope for anything in return or else the action would not be a wholesome action. What constitues a wholesome action is an action that is beneficial to others, that is free from greed, hatred, and delusion. Your second point, I don't know the mechanisms of the brain and the memory, perhaps you would have to consult a neuroscientist about that. However, I do know that if I perform certain actions over and over again, it becomes second nature. For example, driving...or walking...or typing...one rarely thinks about these things as most of these activities have become an instant reflex. so, it becomes a habit. For example, if you are used to cursing...it becomes so easy to use curse words in your daily language...but difficult to speak softly and nicely. Similarly, if you perform good actions, good thoughts...your mind has become accustomed to thinking in this possitive attitude...so that it becomes second nature. So, for me, I don't know about others, but it makes sense to me, that at the time of death...when our minds are half conscious and half not, sorta in a state of delirium...these possitive thoughts just pop up. Have you ever witnessed a person just before the time of death? Do they not sometimes scream and yell or mention thoughts of the past, their regrets...their worries...perhaps they start mumbling something...? That is what i mean...their life story seems to unreel before their eyes...and its seems like they can't stop it. Whatever actions they have commited in their life, they are probably remembering them all over again. If they start remembering unwholesome actions such as killing...stealing..etc..of course their mental state would not be in peace, it becomes agitated, worried that they might get caught. On the other side, if they start remembering wholesome actions then they would probably be smiling...which means their mind is at peace. Have you ever noticed how people died? Some die with their eyes closed...some die with their eyes open, mouth gapping...as if they've just seen a devil...Why such different appearance? Could it be because of their mental state at the time of death? You don't need to answer these questions...just something for you to ponder. Again, I'm not a scientist, not a person who can explain technical details...and i certainly do not have enough abhidhamma knowledge to explain these processes...but all that I know through my observations, I have just shared with you. HOpe it's clear. :) Metta, ~Maya 42514 From: Carl Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:39am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (k) Hi Sarah, What condition determine kusla/akusula in the "five pairs"? ....(snips)...(dvipañcaviññåùa).......These cittas are ahetuka (rootless) vipåkacittas which can be either kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka and therefore, they are "five pairs"........ Thanks Carl ================================================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] > ***** > Cetasikas never arise by themselves, they always accompany > citta and other cetasikas. Therefore, when we study cetasikas, we > should also study the different cittas they accompany. > > There are other cetasikas besides the `universals' which can > arise with the citta, but there have to be at least the seven `universals' > with every citta. > > There are ten types of cittas which are accompanied only by the > `universals', not by other cetasikas. These are the `five pairs' > (dvipañcaviññåùa) which are: seeing-consciousness, hearingconsciousness, > smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness and body- consciousness. > These cittas are ahetuka (rootless) vipåkacittas which can be either > kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka and therefore, they are "five pairs". > ***** > [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 42515 From: Larry Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 139 and Tiika Hi Nina, At Vism.XIV,7 it says that samadhi is the proximate cause of understanding (panna). I believe we determined that this 'understanding' is the insight that conditions the change-of- lineage consciousness and also that this samadhi is a jhana citta. Does this mean that only the object (object condition) of that jhana citta or its jhana factors can be the object of that particular kind of insight that conditions the arising of change-of-lineage consciousness? I ask because there are important differences between objects of insight and objects of jhana. Objects of jhana do not include akusala cittas but objects of insight do. Also, why is it that jhana cittas are not classified as either prompted or unprompted? Larry 42516 From: robmoult Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:26pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (k) Hi Carl, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, What condition determine kusla/akusula in the "five pairs"? > > ....(snips)...(dvipañcaviññåùa).......These cittas are ahetuka > (rootless) vipåkacittas which can be either kusala vipåka or akusala > vipåka and therefore, they are "five pairs"........ ===== It's the intrinsic nature of the rupa which is the object of the cittas. Intrinsically undesirable rupas condition the arising of akusala sense consciousness whereas intrinsically desirable or intrinsically desirable-neutral rupas condition the arising of kusala sense consciousness. Metta, Rob M :-) 42517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin Hello Phil, You understood the essence of what Kh. Sujin wants to convey, you have a fine intuition. People want to ask a logical question and expect a straight answer, black on white, as we say in Dutch. If they do not get that they are disappointed or irritated. You rightly sensed when Kh Sujin is not really interested in a point but wants to help a person to consider the truth for himself, like: what is dhamma, where is dhamma. Bring him to reality now. For many this is an unusual, unconventional way. Howard once used the word idiosyncracy, but really not in an unfavorable sense, I understand that now. Phil. like you say: it is so pure, what is threatening about that. Nina. op 19-02-2005 15:30 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > someone asks Kh Sujin about it, says it *is* possible, right, and she > says sure, it's possible. You can't tell that she's not that > interested in speculating on it. That's not surprising. She is always > trying to bring people back to the moment. The same with the > discussion I mentionned yesterday about Buddhagosa and the moon. You > could tell she wasn't interested in discussing that, it was other > people who were. She's interested in one's happening here and now and > insists on that. That's why those talks are so good, and I hope you > have the mp3. If you stay open to it, and listen, you'll see the > appeal. I honestly don't know why you see her as being so misguided. > It's so pure, just bringing experience down to it's barest elements. > What is wrong or threatening about that? 42518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - vipaaka. Hi Carl, just butting in. op 19-02-2005 18:39 schreef Carl op c7carl@y...: > Hi Sarah, What condition determine kusla/akusula in the "five pairs"? N: It is better to say: kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka, so that it is clear that they are results of kamma. There are four jaatis (birthm nature or class) of cittas: kusala, akusala , vipaaka and kiriya (inoperative). As you see, kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka are one jaati, because they are only result. Nina. 42519 From: Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:11am Subject: Perceiver and Conceiver of the World Hi All Interesting Sutta especially for those who consider concepts as non-existant. "That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world -- this is called the world in the Noble One's Discipline." (Connected Disourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1190) TG 42520 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Kamma, I threw a rock in a lake one day. A man said look, the waves, that is the karma that is seen. We would have to look under the water to seen the karma that is unseen. Boy I say, I hope no fish are in the way of the rock. We both laugh, more karma. How does this come back to me? Well, I still talk about it! CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: jwromeijn To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 19 February, 2005 14:56 Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" wrote: > > Well Joop, > > First of all sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't trying to ignore you or > anything, but since this yahoo group has lots of traffic and there's so many > posts in one day, it's hard for me to keep track of who said what and when. > But anyways, back to topic... Hallo Waters Illusion Thanks for your reaction. No problem it took some days. Time is not important to me. I agree with nearly everything you wrote, but I knew and practiced already most of it. But what surprises me is that you did not react on the main part of my message, especially my first point. From the quote of me you included in this message I mention the headings: - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". In short: Isn't it better to behave in a ethical way without thinking on deserving something in the future? - You talk about "actions . stored up in your citta". In short: using the information-storage metaphore for kamma is too easy. <...> 42521 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard My instincts was saying that too ("this is not to offend, but there is more to this"). The problem for "me" was that I have made posts (in other forums) where people felt I was quick to set them up and pounce. It was not appreciated, and my ego was perceived as a big demon looking for people to put down. So upon failing I stopped. I was also thinking this could have been the problem too. (after rereading this, this is some how connect to the shock, wait, I think, "sit", subconscious stuff is always hard to see, some say impossible, Freud, well this bottom is too deep for me, at least for now!) I think I have covered all the births that took place during my confusion. I will have to look more closely at my feelings during the birth of shock (system overload) to try and figureout what births took place out side my awareness (sub/unconsciousness -- I know that most text Abidharmist don't see this truth -- so I will call it: "during my lack of mindfulness" for them) ----- hope this covers every body :¨) CharlesD PS: misunderstanding is a demon that sits and waits for weak minds to pounce on, giving rise to more of its kind. (----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... Hi, Charles - > Your message did not upset me, In the beginning it did shock me, then that > passed and confusion was born, then that passed and concern was born which > gave rise to logical thinking again. So I figured I needed more input, so I had > to inquire further. I think it is fun getting at the bottom of things, and > you presented something new to get to the bottom of. That's all. --------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! :-) Evidently it was I who misunderstood you. -------------------------------- > During the confusion, I did begin to think at some point I must have > offended you, or you were applying a moderately extreme measure to discrete what I > had posted. And then concern was born ... ------------------------------- Howard: No, I was not offended at all, and I ceratinly didn't intend to offend. :-) 42522 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi James and Phil, > > Please allow me to paste some of Ledi's sayadaw words on your > discusssion of 7 days of practice. > Then, again, putting forth effort for seven days means exerting as > much as is in one's power to do so. If the effort is not of the > highest order, the peroid of necessary effort becomes lengthened > according to the laxity of the effort, and seven days may become > seven years or longer. If the effort during this life is not > sufficiently intense as to enable one to attain the Paths and the > Fruits, then release from worldly ills cannot be obtained during the > present Buddha Sasana, while release during future Buddha Sasanas > can be obtained only if the individual encounters them. No release > can be obtained if no Buddha Sasana is encountered. Thanks for this Kel. This is the way I see it also. Metta, James 42523 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Phil, Phil: She's interested in one's happening here and now and insists on that. That's why those talks are so good, and I hope you have the mp3. If you stay open to it, and listen, you'll see the appeal. I honestly don't know why you see her as being so misguided. It's so pure, just bringing experience down to it's barest elements. What is wrong or threatening about that? James: Phil, I was simply commenting on the first mp3 because that is the one you had commented on. I haven't listened to all of the mp3s. I commented just on what she mentioned in that first mp3. If she reverses this position later on, then that is another matter. I am not sure why she isn't consistent. I find nothing wrong with bringing people back to the present moment; but, really, there is nothing extraordinary about that. I could remind you to come back to the present moment until the cows come home, is that really going to make a change in your mind? If K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the tools so that they will come back to the present moment without depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people self-reliant, not dependent. Phil: There is sincere effort, when sincere effort arises. Sincere effort can't be had by constantly saying "I will make a sincere effort." James: This is a tricky area. I believe that sincere effort arises for a number of reasons. I think that one needs to `build' an `internal compass' which will always point him/her in the right direction. Phil: James, I don't understand this. Nothing lasts for aeons, of course. Nothing lasts for more than a moment. That's Dhamma 101, isn't it? James: There is a continuity from citta to citta. Phil: I guess the idea of maggacitta (that is the term for the enlightenment moment citta, if I recall) is another thing you don't agree with. James: ;-)) I never said that. I guess there could be such a citta; I don't know because I'm not enlightened. ;-) Phil: And I agree that defilements are more common, by far, than wholesome cittas, and by being more common will have more conditioning impact, but is a single wholesome citta any more or less "strong or persistent" than a single unwholesome citta? James: I don't understand your question. It seems that you are not taking into account the continuity between cittas. It isn't really a question of one citta vs. a different citta, it is a question of tendencies, roots, and accumulations. Remember, no matter how `wholesome' a citta is, by Abhidhamma definition, it is still defiled by ignorance until the moment of enlightenment. Metta, James 42524 From: Philip Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Kelvin, and all Thanks for this, and for all your very insightful/knowledgeable contributions. I've been learing a lot - well, I've been thinking "I will learn a lot from this guy's posts when I have more time to read them", to tell the truth. A lack of right effort when I think I will find time to read them later. > Please allow me to paste some of Ledi's sayadaw words on your > discusssion of 7 days of practice. Of course I know the name Ledi Sayadaw. Have seen it often in Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes. Is what he teaches here found in the suttanta, or on commentaries? I still tend to distinguish too much between the two. > > Then, again, putting forth effort for seven days means exerting as > much as is in one's power to do so. If the effort is not of the > highest order, the peroid of necessary effort becomes lengthened > according to the laxity of the effort, and seven days may become > seven years or longer. If the effort during this life is not > sufficiently intense as to enable one to attain the Paths and the > Fruits, then release from worldly ills cannot be obtained during the > present Buddha Sasana, while release during future Buddha Sasanas > can be obtained only if the individual encounters them. No release > can be obtained if no Buddha Sasana is encountered. I can see so much danger in this, if the reader is thinking too conventionally about "putting forth effort" and the reader almost invariably will be, it would seem to me. I know the Buddha did teach about seven days etc but it just still feels so odd to me to see things put in such temporal terms. The Buddha must have known about the likelihood that this would throw many people off - that it would make many people overly eager for results that are simply not due yet- but taught it anyway knowing already that not many people would find the true path because it is so sutle, contrary to the ways of the world etc. I take the liberty of speculating on what the Buddha was thinking. Obvioiusly a pretty foolish thing to do, but too late. I remain convinced that there are many, many people out there who are being hindered by the thoughr of guaranteed results from the right kind of effort, hindered because this right kind of effort is much subtler than they believe. You know, I work at an English conversation school, and when potential students (ie customers) ask me how long it will be before they can understand English movies without subtitles or have a perfectly natural sounding conversation with native speakers, I tell them...aeons. It depends not only on the sweat of their brow in making diligent effort but also other conditions that are beyond their control. Well, I don't say aeons - I know it is possible to make significant progress, especially for beginners. But I certainly never mention specific times. Especially for people who have already made some progress. That's when the learning curve flattens out, and it is so much harder to make noticeable progress. I think the same thing applies in Dhamma, maybe. But in Dhamma there are the sudden, unexpected leaps ahead. Like for the monk who cut this throat but in the following few moments attained Aranhantship. I hope no one out there takes that sutta too literally! Metta, Phil p.s Hi in passing to James. Back to you later, my friend. Packing is getting pretty crazy. Later might be much later. And thanks, Nina, for your encouraging comments. 42525 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:32pm Subject: "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" question about what namarupa is Buddha is talking about Namarupa: "Name-and-form is conditioned by consciousness: -- Susima, do you understand this?" Lets see if I am right. Budda: " Conditioned by ignorance, activities come to pass; conditioned by activities, consciousness comes to pass; conditioned by consciousness, name - and - form come to pass; conditioned by name-and-form, the six senses come to pass" which is: " Avijjàpaccayà, bhikkhave, sankhàrà sankhàrapaccayà vinnànam vinnànapaccayà nàmarupam nàmarupapaccayà salàyatanam salàyatanapaccayà phasso.." etc. Seems like in both cases, there is teaching about the same one thing : nàmarupam - name&form or to be exact mentality-materiality. This seem to be one thing arrising in certain condition and come to pass in certain conditions as well. But Ninas translation of "Book of Discipline" (IV, Maha-vagga, I, The Great Section): "conditioned by consciousness are nama and rupa ; conditioned by nama and rupa are the six bases " and then, from this point on, there are two things, one being nama and another being rupa. then again i go to sutta to read Buddhas words: " Iti kho, Ànanda, nàmaruùpa - paccayà vinnànam, vinnàna- paccayà nàmaruùpam..." etc. then when I read RobertK skech on conditions: "3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see Vism XVII 201]" so now I see 3 things arrising in certain condition and come to pass in certain conditions as well. It may be nama, or may be rupa or may be namarupa as well? Is there some good reading about namarupa I should do before get myself any further into DO? metta, Agrios 42526 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Seven years or just one week ..... ? Dear Group, "Whoever, monks, should practise these four foundations of mindfulness for just one week may expect one of two results: either Arahantship in this life or, if there should be some substrate left, the state of a Non-Returner." DN22.v.22 ....and quite a number of lucrative meditation retreats depend on people 'literally' believing just this - or at least that after a few weeks they'll "definitely" be a sotapanna .. 'the Buddha said' ... I has never seemed to me that the Buddha was speaking 'literally' about periods of time in this verse. It seems to me that he is trying to get across a message about 'time' - that in itself it isn't important - there isn't any 'time' stretching out in front and way back behind ... all there is, is NOW. Doesn't matter whether you 'practise' diligently for seven years, seven months, seven weeks or seven days ... One can only become enlightened NOW ... in this present moment ... which rises and falls away, and does not stay. The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the quintessence of the teaching of the Buddha, contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment. There is suffering; there is a cause or origin of suffering; there is an end of suffering; and there is a path out of suffering. It is the penetration of the Four Noble Truths that leads to enlightenment. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 42527 From: Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seven years or just one week ..... ? In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:48:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: I has never seemed to me that the Buddha was speaking 'literally' about periods of time in this verse. It seems to me that he is trying to get across a message about 'time' - that in itself it isn't important - there isn't any 'time' stretching out in front and way back behind ... all there is, is NOW. Doesn't matter whether you 'practise' diligently for seven years, seven months, seven weeks or seven days ... One can only become enlightened NOW ... in this present moment ... which rises and falls away, and does not stay. The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the quintessence of the teaching of the Buddha, contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment. There is suffering; there is a cause or origin of suffering; there is an end of suffering; and there is a path out of suffering. It is the penetration of the Four Noble Truths that leads to enlightenment. metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine My take is that the Buddha was indeed speaking about these time periods. The Buddha was very straightforward and plain spoken in virtually all respects IMO. In my view, the Buddha is speaking about folks who have the ability to become enlightened in these time periods. They already have the knowledge, training, and potential insight "at their fingertips." What they need to do then is to make a strong push to "cross the finish line." Most of us are still trying to gather the tools to setup this ability. For those who have the tools "at hand," they can do it faster. I believe there are a couple of Suttas that mention it can be done in half a day as well. TG 42528 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: Seven years or just one week ..... ? Christine, > ....and quite a number of lucrative meditation retreats depend on > people 'literally' believing just this - or at least that after a > few weeks they'll "definitely" be a sotapanna .. 'the Buddha > said' ... Kel: Well if they truly believe that then why stop at sotapanna, shouldn't they be anagamis? What gives? Buddha also said, atapi sampajano satima. Only when working in accordance with that instruction for the FULL 7 days, is Buddha guaranteeing anything. It would be amazing if people in general can follow that for 10 minutes without interruption. > It seems to me that he is > trying to get across a message about 'time' - that in itself it > isn't important - there isn't any 'time' stretching out in front > and way back behind ... all there is, is NOW. Kel: I don't see how you drew this conclusion from this particular verse. - kel 42529 From: Carl Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (k) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, What condition determine kusla/akusula in the "five > pairs"? > > > > ....(snips)...(dvipañcaviññåùa).......These cittas are ahetuka > > (rootless) vipåkacittas which can be either kusala vipåka or > akusala > > vipåka and therefore, they are "five pairs"........ > > ===== > > It's the intrinsic nature of the rupa which is the object of the > cittas. Intrinsically undesirable rupas condition the arising of > akusala sense consciousness whereas intrinsically desirable or > intrinsically desirable-neutral rupas condition the arising of > kusala sense consciousness. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Carl: Hi Rob M, Yes, thanks. This is fiting together very nicely. Carl 42530 From: Carl Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 127 - vipaaka. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Carl, > just butting in. > op 19-02-2005 18:39 schreef Carl op c7carl@y...: > > Hi Sarah, What condition determine kusla/akusula in the "five pairs"? > N: It is better to say: kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka, so that it is > clear that they are results of kamma. There are four jaatis (birthm nature > or class) of cittas: kusala, akusala , vipaaka and kiriya (inoperative). As > you see, kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka are one jaati, because they are > only result. > Nina. Carl: Yes, I should say kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Thank you Nina, Thanks for butting in! :-) Carl. 42531 From: Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/19/05 4:16:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: > PS: misunderstanding is a demon that sits and waits for weak minds to > pounce on, giving rise to more of its kind. > ================ It is a demon that has easy pickings with all of us, especially on e-mail lists! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42532 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:03pm Subject: let it shake After some searching, I have a feeling I found source for Robs K statement: 1. rupa alone arising in DO 2. nama alone arising in DO 3. namarupa arising in DO it is found in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada Maha Thera. there he states that: "Dependent on (Rebirth) Consciousness arise Mind and Matter (8)." and then explaines: "8. Nama-rupa - This compound should be understood as nama alone, rupa alone, and namarupa together. In the case of arupa planes there arises only mind; in the case of mindless (asañña) planes, only matter; in the case of kama and rupa planes, both mind and matter." if: 1. rupa alone can arise - there is some rupa reality, void of nama. in such a world, there has to be different DO leading to arrising of rupa instead of namarupa. 2. nama alone can arise - there is one more reality, void of rupa. in such a world... etc... in any case, DO as I know it will not apply in them, and DO will not be an universal law as I was thinking it is. So I did some more searching and found about assanasattas :) Now, this is shaking my confidence in Dhamma, but hey... let it shake a little :) metta, Agrios 42533 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi Sarah, Took my time to track down the references you asked for. > > kel: well that's the key here, it has to fall away to give a > > chance for sati to arise. But if dosa is strong then it surely > > won't give way. > …. > S: awareness of the seeing, hearing, bodily experience and so on and we're > lost in `the ocean of concepts'. Kel: right and the sati isn't strong enough to swim above the current of dosa. > No matter how much dosa, it's no limit to the development of satipatthana > at any moment. Only ignorance and wrong view in particular limit its > arising.Jon's written more on this recently #41033 > On the other hand, the less we see our present situation as a handicap, > the better chance we have of actually applying what we have heard, > reflected on and properly understood'. Kel: I see it not as handicap but giving a realistic assessment of the success based on the present conditions. It's an obvious statement from Jon that I chose not to respond before. There's no question what needs to be done but the question we were discussing was what is a better environment with a higher rate of success. I think it matter how much dosa because it requires stronger sati to counter. It's just a simple law the way I see it. > >I still don't see how dosa is better. > … > S: No suggestion by me (or anyone else) that dosa is ever better… Kusala > is kusala and akusala is akusala. When there's awareness of dosa, it's > kusala and precious. Kel: Here I took your arguement and looked at it's ramifications. You said all dhammas have to be known, akusala and kusala equally thus also casting doubt on the jhana practice. In a particular situation when kusala is well known by the mind, by your logic, akusala is better because it's less well understood. People also don't talk about miccha-sati and sometime awareness of dosa is that and not kusala. > > only cut our losses by using it as an object AFTER its power is > > reduced. You remember 4 ways of training kusala/akusala I'm sure. > > Why would Buddha also encourage that? > S: He helped us to appreciate the value of all kusala and the disadvantage > of all akusala. No question about it. Kel: And ultimately I'm sure you would agree when we see disadvantage of kusala itself, akusala is really not important anymore. > > Kel: actually I disagree, full sati always remember perfectly. > …. > S: think that past states are not included? Of course, there can be wise > reflection with sati about past states, but not satipatthana. Usually > remembering refers to the remembering to be mindful or kusala at the > presnt moment as a function of sati, I believe. Kel: Not quite from what I was taught. Thinking is a citta, it's object can be past or future but the thinking mind can be object for the following citta just like akusala. So I don't see why you particularly single it out as bad. > > Kel: yea and we just discussed how this statement isn't true. > > It's not "any time" with presence of domanassa. >S: Tipitaka to be aware of kusala AND akusala states if the latter > could never be known. Kel: I only steadfastly point to the fact it cannot be by definition any time because it excludes the time akusala citta has arisen. This is all. > >When there's full and uninterrupted sati, how can there be > >any akusala? > … > S: There's never `full and interrupted sati'. Kel: How do you know? Have you experienced any absorption states to make that statement? > > Subtleness could be defined as how quickly sati arise again after > > being interrupted by akusala. If it's just one akusala vithi then > > surely it's very fast. Then the following sati might or might not > > know of getting interrupted. Actually it's pretty hard to detect > > rise and fall of the same type of citta in a row but different types > > are a cinch. > …. > S: Isn't this just thinking about sati? Kel: What's the problem with thinking? As I said it's another object. What I described above is not thinking however. Thinking in comparison is pretty gross statement, it's very easy to know it. When the mind is calm by sati/samadhi and strings together upekkha, it's hard to detect each citta but still knowable of course. I just contend any grosser states are easier to detect because they're very obvious in comparison to the predominant state. > S:4 `foundations' of satipatthana, but no rule about what appears or can > be the object of sati at any time. No self or way to `hold onto vedana' or > any other dhamma. Kel: This is your position. Foundations can also be thought of as orientation or perspective. You can see the whole cycle by picking a point and watching it rotate while remaining stationary. The primary object being used is different to get to the underlying paramattha dhammas. > the Buddha talk about knowing the all through all doors instead of > saying, take your pick? Kel: So we shouldn't close our eyes then and go to a noisy place instead of a secluded place. I guess this fits in with how you see the see the practice though. Again we're talking about necessary and sufficient conditions. All 6 are sufficient conditions but not necessary from my view. Can a blind man be enlightened? Can a deaf man be enlightened? Can a blind and deaf man be enlightened? Assume they were born this way. > > Kel: By your logic Bodhisattas would become ariyans prematurely > > because they already reached sankharupekkha-nana. > S: Yes. Can you give me a reference to the Bodhisattas as having attained > this ~nana. I'm interested in where you get this. I'm familiar with the > description in vism XX1,61. I copied the pali though there's prolly font issues for your reference. I thought this point was common knowledge and people I asked all have read it before. Luckily my teacher tracked down the references. 1) Puggalapaññatti, Ekakapuggalapaññatti 22. Katamo ca puggalo sammasambuddho? Idhekacco puggalo pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu sama½ saccani abhisambujjhati; tattha ca sabbaññuta½ papunati, balesu ca vasibhavam ayam vuccati puggalo "sammasambuddho". 2) Pañcappakarana-atthakatha, 22 of above Sammasambuddhaniddese pubbe ananussutesuti pacchimabhave saccappaµivedhato pubbe aññassa kassaci santike assutapubbesu. Tato purimapurimesu pana bhavesu sabbaññubodhisatta buddhasasane pabbajitva tini pitakani uggahetva gatapaccagatavattam aruyha kammaµµh±na½ anuloma½ gotrabhu½ ±hacca µhapenti. Tasm± pacchimabhavasmi½yeva an±cariyakabh±va½ sandh±yeta½ vutta½. Tad± hi tath±gato p³ritap±ramitt± aññassa santike s±ma½ ananussutesu saªkhat±saªkhatadhammesu "ida½ dukkha½…pe… aya½ dukkhanirodhag±min² paµipad±"ti attapaccakkhena ñ±ºena catt±ri sacc±ni abhisambujjhati. 3) Majjhimapannasa-atthakatha, 286 Alattha kho, ±nanda,…pe… pabbajja½ alattha upasampadanti pabbajitv± kimak±si? Ya½ bodhisattehi kattabba½. Bodhisatt± hi buddh±na½ sammukhe pabbajanti. Pabbajitv± ca pana ittarasatt± viya patitasiªg± na honti, catup±risuddhis²le pana supatiµµh±ya tepiµaka½ buddhavacana½ uggaºhitv± terasa dhutaªg±ni sam±d±ya arañña½ pavisitv± gatapacc±gatavatta½ p³rayam±n± samaºadhamma½ karont± vipassana½ va¹¹hetv± y±va anulomañ±ºa½ ±hacca tiµµhanti, maggaphalattha½ v±y±ma½ na karonti. Jotip±lopi tatheva ak±si. - kel 42534 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] thanks. Dear Nina >N: All these last fifteen years were not easy. There was kusala, but in >between a lot of akusala. I had to conquer myself so many times, I was >frustrated and impatient. But there were also good moments, especially with >the music. > > Some kusala but a lot of akusala, that just about sums up life, I think ;-)). It's just that much of the time the (subtle) akusala is not apparent to us. > Sarah, my father did not wish any eulogies, and years ago he said that he >even did not like us to be at his funeral. He was so strongwilled, and very >special in many ways. We never knew he changed his mind, but we are all >going to his funeral, all family members. There will not be any fringes. >As Sarah said, the best medicine at this time as at all times.> This is true. >Nina. > > I hope everything went well. Jon 42535 From: robmoult Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Was "Introduction", Now "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > The eBook is my class notes. I want to add another chapter covering > > Paticcasamuppada and I have been working on it slowly. Here is what > > I have so far (this is simplified and there is lots of meat still > to > > be added): > (snip) > > Dear Rob > > Well, it sounds solid, but what to say about it? > I was surprised that you 'translated' the Paticcasamuppada (dependent > origination - DO ) in the building blocks of Abhidhamma, I had not > expected that, I expected a more dynamic approach. ===== Sorry to disappoint :-) I am really just starting on my detailed study of DO. In general, I have a slight distrust of modern writers and prefer to go back to source texts wherever possible. There appears to be some diversity of opinion on how to interpret DO and so I am starting my study with an Abhidhammic approach. I expect that this clear (though rather technical) definition of the elements and relationships will help me to piece together my own understanding (at least I will be able to eliminate some of the rhetoric). One "modern writer" whom I tend to trust as being faithful to the original texts is Bhikkhu Bodhi. I will be spending the next week in Tokyo and Shanghai and will have some "airplane time" and "hotel room time" to study his text, "The Great Discourse on Causation, The Mahanidana Sutta and Its Commentaries". Of course, Ven. Buddhadasa's position is that Buddhaghosa got it wrong and we need to go back to the suttas. I will also bring along with me a text on DO by Buddhadasa, in case I get tired of Bhikkhu Bodhi's work and I am looking for a change of pace :-). ===== > > And my knowledge is not enough to have an opinion about it. > Still some questions: > > - The DO can be used for explaining what's happening during three (or > more) lifetimes, I think you are doing that. > But as far as I understand it can also been used to explain what's > happening in one lifetime. > And it can be used to explain what's happening during one second, for > example during insight-meditation; and that's what is what interests > me most; perhaps when you have more text to connect the > buildingblocks, it get more clear. ===== Please note that my Abhihdamma analysis is based on the Visuddhimagga (a text by Buddhaghosa), so Buddhadasa may not agree with these details. The Vibhanga has an essay on DO, but on first glance, it does not appear to be terribly detailed. The Patthana is detailed but is not structured in a way that makes it easy to trace through DO. ===== > > - On this moment my main interest is the relation between anicca > en 'emptiness' as Nagarjuna uses this term. > And I like the entry of David Kalupahana who states that the whole > Karika of Nagarjuna is a commentary on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. I > quote a part of it, about the DO, I think it's nearly impossible to > explain it in Abhidhamma-terms, or do you know how ? > "'Everything exists" (sabba.m atthi): this is one > extreme. "Everything does not exist" (sabba.m n'atthi): this is the > other extreme. Not approaching either extreme the Tathaagata teaches > you a doctrine by the middle [way]:- Conditioned by ignorance > dispositions come to pass; conditioned by dispositions is > consciousness; conditioned by consciousness is the psychophysical > personality; conditioned by the psychophysical personality are the > six senses; conditioned by the six senses is contact; conditioned by > contact is feeling; conditioned by feeling is craving; conditioned by > craving is grasping; conditioned by grasping is becoming; conditioned > by becoming is birth; conditioned by birth is decay-and-death, grief, > suffering . . . even such is the uprising of this entire mass of > suffering, But from the utter fading away and ceasing of ignorance > (arises) ceasing of dispositions. and thus comes ceasing of this > entire mass of suffering.' ===== I am not clear as to why my previous post (analysis of DO in Abhidhammic terms) cannot apply here. ===== > > - One other detail: you speak about 'merit' and 'demerit'; I don't > like the way of reasoning behind that words. > I prefer simply to behave in a ethical way, without thinking about > any result of it. Isn't that more according the Suttas than the merit- > expectations? Or can at leat not another translation in stead > of 'merit' been used? ===== Probably just a problem with translation of "kusala" and "akusala". Metta, Rob M :-) 42536 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: Was "Introduction", Now "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" Dear RobM, all, There are a hundred and twenty pages + notes in The Great Discourse on Causation 'The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its Commentaries' ... I would be interested in 'riding along' with you on this, if you would care to scribble a few thoughts and reflections for dsg. :-) metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > I am really just starting on my detailed study of DO. In general, I > have a slight distrust of modern writers and prefer to go back to > source texts wherever possible. There appears to be some diversity > of opinion on how to interpret DO and so I am starting my study with > an Abhidhammic approach. I expect that this clear (though rather > technical) definition of the elements and relationships will help me > to piece together my own understanding (at least I will be able to > eliminate some of the rhetoric). > > One "modern writer" whom I tend to trust as being faithful to the > original texts is Bhikkhu Bodhi. I will be spending the next week in > Tokyo and Shanghai and will have some "airplane time" and "hotel > room time" to study his text, "The Great Discourse on Causation, The > Mahanidana Sutta and Its Commentaries". > <<>> > Metta, > Rob M :-) 42537 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: Seven years or just one week ..... ? Dear Christine, My teacher says that the seven days is for someone at the stage of sankhar'upekkha-nana He said it takes about 10 years. Metta / Antony. 42538 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard I made a mistake: "weak minds" not just weak minds, but "weakness in minds." ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... Hi, Charles - > PS: misunderstanding is a demon that sits and waits for weak minds to > pounce on, giving rise to more of its kind. ================ It is a demon that has easy pickings with all of us, especially on e-mail lists! ;-) 42539 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:02am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James, and all (farewell note at the end) > James: I have long sung the praises of this group (especially in > light of some really awful groups out there) but this group isn't > everything. I guess the middle way should also be kept in mind when > participating in this group. Don't become attached/addicted to this > group, make it your whole life, and then neglect the real dhamma > practice. This group has been the catalyst for me to study more of > the original Buddha word and commentaries, so that is a good thing; > however, this group has also built in my mind a subtle aversion to > the Buddha's teachings of anatta and panna due to the manner they > are frequently presented in this group (with conceit), which is a > bad thing. So, I guess you have to keep everything in perspective. Yes, there are pluses and minuses to everything. In my case, it's not that people present anatta and panna with conceit, it's that I feel conceit (self-image)about posts I write, and often spend too mcuh time during the day mentally replaying with pleasure things I've written instead of reflecting on things I've read. But the benefits outweigh the minuses. It's interesting to be able to note how my understanding has clearly progressed on certain points that I've taken a different line on before. One example is how I used to contend that we could employ self to work towards detachment from self. I see that's not the case now. And the thing I mentionned about now being able to better understand the four right efforts. > Group participation is often difficult for me specifically because > of the psychic vibes I pick up from the members, but this group has > predominately peaceful members so it isn't too bad (doesn't matter > if you believe in that or not- it's my perspective). One thing I'll say James. I sometimes wonder why you don't share more of the skills and insight you showed in your letters to the kids, the eightfold path thing, and in some daily life descriptions/reflections from life in Egypt I found in the archives. I sometimes get the feeling you're holding something back from the group, which could be seen as a subtle form of stinginess, perhaps because you know how irritated you become if you get too involved in groups or something. It seems that so many, almost all of your posts are related to going after Buddhagosa or K Sujin or others' ways. I know that people enjoy discussing with you because you are outspoken so you often find yourself in a somewhat adversial position, but why not leave that role aside more often and take advantage of your considerable skill with writing to share more from your daily life in Egypt, or to practice writing some more material for beginners like you did so admirably for Rob's presentation. It seems there's a very bountiful side of James that we don't get to see often enough, and there are many people reading here that would benefit and enjoy more of that kind of thing. You have mentionned that you might like to write something Dhamma- related for kids someday. Why not try out your chops here more often? > The Buddha taught in a sutta that one should use intuition to > determine when to practice mindfulness, when to meditate, when to > study, when to work, etc. So, you have to listen to your heart to > determine what is best suited for you, and make sure that your > craving isn't speaking the loudest. Therefore, people are going to > be different in their approaches because people are different and at > different points in their lives. (If you notice, I don't advertise > how often I meditate, or how many retreats I have attended, or how > much I study Buddhism, or how many monks have been my teachers, etc. > because it doesn't matter. I am me and no one else has to be like > me.) There you go, that's the kind of thing I mean. > > James: I'm surprised that Naomi is so patient with all of your > Internet and Buddhist group participation. Honestly, I have often > wondered about that. I think it is difficult to balance a > relationship and an intense Buddhist practice. A very interesting point. Sometimes I think that if I were alone in life I wouldn't worry at all about our financial future so I could concentrate on Dhamma much more, but of course Dhamma is everywhere at all times whether we're meditating or studying or discussing or watching TV with our loved ones or whatever. Naomi has been pretty understanding about my interest in Dhamma, but not completely so. She would be more interested if I showed progress in more mundane ways. (ie my stagnant writing career) She was sweet about it the other day, though. I was lying in bed, sick with a cold, listening to one of the mp3 talks on the computer, and she said she knew how happy I must be listening to my friends. I pointed out which voice was Nina, and she looked so happy. I've found a pretty good Japanese translation of Dhammapada so as soon as we're settled in at the new place we might get into studying that together and discussing. There will be no TV and I won't be using internet, so the quality of our time together will increase, if quality means talking instead of watching TV and saying mean and/or admiring things about the people who appear! Man, I'm amazed that I'm going to be without TV tomorrow. It's kind of scary! I never used to have TV in my early adulthood in Canada- it was so uncool to watch TV in my punk rock days - but I've gotten sucked into it here. I'm going to miss the Simpsons... ok, enough rambling. Time for me to sign off. Cable's going to be cut off in several hours. Metta, Phil p.s thank you all for all your companionship and support on the path. Catch you again in a few months, probably. 42540 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:18am Subject: Hugo Re: [dsg] khanti and "setting up" mindfulness. Hi Hugo Sorry I ran out of time and didn't get back to you on this and another post. Thanks for your feedback! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Hello Phil, > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:35:57 -0000, Philip wrote: > > Yes, there is the "wisdom" that life experience brings us, whether > > we follow Dhamma are not. The kind of wisdom that applies in that old > > chestnut about give me the patience to bear what I must, the strngth > > to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. That kind > > of wisdom is valuable, for sure. > > I would guess that if it is Wisdom, it is Dhamma, but let'st not get > into those technicalities, which only help create arguments and > pointing to books, because unless we are wise we can't be sure of it. (snip) 42541 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:29am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Phil, Phil: In my case, it's not that people present anatta and panna with conceit, it's that I feel conceit (self-image)about posts I write, and often spend too mcuh time during the day mentally replaying with pleasure things I've written instead of reflecting on things I've read. James: This is a beautiful example of the practice of mindfulness (and honesty). I have no doubt that you will go far in your practice. Phil: I sometimes get the feeling you're holding something back from the group, which could be seen as a subtle form of stinginess, perhaps because you know how irritated you become if you get too involved in groups or something. James: This is true. I do hold back. I have found that I don't have the equanimity needed to properly handle all the various types of feedback I get from such posts. I don't know if this is a lack of insight on my part or what, but I don't have a lot of patience for certain people (except kids…with them I have lots of patience). Maybe sometime in the future that will change. I used to write a lot of letters to my friends, updates about my life and such, and I even stopped doing that because I got pretty irritated by some of the responses. I used to have my own Buddhist group where only I posted messages, but I couldn't handle the feedback (e-mail and psychic) so I closed it down. Phil: It seems that so many, almost all of your posts are related to going after Buddhagosa or K Sujin or others' ways. James: I usually post if I don't agree with something or if I have a question, I don't post in order to teach or share my life (which could also be viewed as trying to teach to some people). I don't feel qualified to teach dhamma because I am so mired in ignorance myself that I need to work on my own understanding before I can teach anyone else. Phil: It seems there's a very bountiful side of James that we don't get to see often enough, and there are many people reading here that would benefit and enjoy more of that kind of thing. James: This is very kind of you to say. However, I don't know if this group is the appropriate place for such a thing. I tried to do some updates about Egypt in this group, and I got a few negative responses and people wanting to argue with me. Can you imagine? Argue with me about my life! ;-)) Anyway, I can't handle that sort of thing too much. Phil: p.s thank you all for all your companionship and support on the path. Catch you again in a few months, probably. James: Gosh, it is going to take you a few months to move?! Hmmm… well, good luck. Chat with you when you get back. Metta, James 42542 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 139 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 19-02-2005 19:17 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > At Vism.XIV,7 it says that samadhi is the proximate cause of > understanding (panna). N: I am glad you mention this. Going to Tiika of Vis. XIV, 7: Tiika: I had originally: urged, but nibandhati is in the first place to connect (bandhati, to bind) which seems to fit here. Understanding and concentration are connected, together. We discussed before the Upanisa Sutta (Transcendental Arising) with B.B. notes (Wheel 277/278) Howard referred to. B.B. said: L: I believe we determined that this 'understanding' is the insight that conditions the change-of- > lineage consciousness N: Not only at this stage, before that. Concentration is a Path fator, it assists right understanding of the eightfold Path that is being developed in different stages of insight. L: and also that this samadhi is a jhana citta. N: Only for those who develop jhana and then develop insight with concentration as base for insight. This means, they have to emerge from jhana and be aware of the realities as they appear one at a time. Some people, as you know, are dry insight workers, some can develop jhana as well. L: Does this mean that only the object (object condition) of that jhana > citta or its jhana factors can be the object of that particular kind of insight that conditions the arising of change-of-lineage consciousness? N: Insight is understanding of the characteristic of whatever kind of dhamma that appears. Those who develop jhana should be aware of jhanacitta or the jhanafactors so that they do not take jhana for self. But they should also be aware of all other kinds of nama and rupa that appear. The mahaa-kusala cittas just before the change of lineage understand as it is whatever object appears, and know this as either impermanent, dukkha or anatta. L: I ask because there are important differences between objects of insight and objects of jhana. Objects of jhana do not include akusala cittas but objects of insight do. N: Objects of jhana are meditation subjects. The aim of jhana is not: knowledge and vision of things as they really are, knowing the three characteristics of ultimate realities, but the temporal subduing of the hindrances. So, akusala citta could not be an object of jhana. As you say, akusala cittas are included in the objects of insight, they are impermanent, dukkha, anatta. They are included in mindfulness of citta among the four satipatthanas, and also in mindfulness of dhamma. L: > Also, why is it that jhana cittas are not classified as either prompted or unprompted? N: Co to the Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 36, 37) explains that jhaana arises 'by right' (adhikaara) in as far as one has to be born with three hetus, thus, with paññaa accompanying the rebirth-consciousness, but that this alone is not enough. There also has to be prior practice (abhisa.mkhaara). We read: Thus, by a right alone would be spontaneous, and by preparation it would be prompted, but, as explained, both are needed. An additional remark: We have to remember that paññaa is necessary for jhana; without right understanding of kusala citta and akusala citta jhaana is impossible. If one just concentrates without understanding one will constantly delude oneself. One will take for jhaana what is not jhaana but only an extraordinary experience. Such an experience may be overwhelming, but it should be known as just a type of nama. Paññaa has a sobering effect. Nina. 42543 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions" question about what namarupa is Hi Agrios, I just answer shortly now. consciousness is vipaakacitta: rebirthconsciousness and also vipaakacitta during life. It conditions cetasikas and rupa. Cetasikas are naama. They arise together with citta. See Rob M's exposiiton, where he explains the ways phenomena condition one another. It is very complex. The Visuddhimagga explains these and elaborates. Before studying D.O. one should understand more about citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. op 20-02-2005 01:32 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > But Ninas translation of "Book of Discipline" > (IV, Maha-vagga, I, The Great Section): > "conditioned by consciousness are nama and rupa ; > conditioned by nama and rupa are the six bases " 42544 From: Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: Predominant roots? On Sunday, 20 Feb 2005 07:09:18 -0000 kelvin_lwin" wrote: Sarah: <> Kelvin: There is another one at Visuddhimagga 442-3 (Path of Purification XIV 28-31) and the .tiikaa to this. Here the same is said to apply also to paccekabuddhas and to arahant disciples with the four pa.tisambhidaa. All need to have carried out the pubbayoga consisting in discipleship with a former Buddha and arrival at insight in the vicinity of anuloma. In the English translation it's easy to miss it if one reads too fast. One needs to start at paragraph 31: "Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach the discriminations through prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so by all these means." and then go back to the definition of the five means in paragraph 28, where 'prior effort' (pubbayoga) is defined as: "...devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practised [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on almsround] and coming back [with it]." In the Vis. Tiikaa the phrase "up to the vicinity of conformity and change-of-lineage" (yaava anulomagotrabhusamiipa.m) is glossed as sankhaarupekkha~naa.na. Best wishes, Dhammanando 42545 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] let it shake Hi Agrios, those who develop jhana see the disadvantages of sense objects and the attachment bound up with them. Some see the disadvantages of ruupa and have conditions to be born in planes where there is only nama. Some see the disadvantages of nama, of any experience, and have conditions to be born in a plane where there is only rupa, not nama. But, when their lifespan is finished they are reborn in other planes again where there is nama. When we think of the right conditions for a being to be born just in such or such plane of existence we can understand why there can be a plane without nama. We can also consider our birth here: in a sensuous plane. We like sense impressions, we want to experience sense objects. There were the right conditions for us to be born here. Nina. op 20-02-2005 08:03 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > So I did some more searching and found about assanasattas :) > Now, this is shaking my confidence in Dhamma, but hey... let > it shake a little :) 42546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi Phil, James, good, good!! I liked the dialogues between both of you also because they were written in a lovely style. You both are teachers of English. At first when I read James about Buddhaghosa or Kh Sujin I thought, Oh, oh. Then usually another James appears soon after, who is balanced and very sympathetic. I endorse Phil's words here. But I also understand that James does not like the arguing style that he met. Nina. op 20-02-2005 13:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > why > not leave that role aside more often and take advantage of your > considerable skill with writing to share more from your daily life in > Egypt, or to practice writing some more material for beginners like > you did so admirably for Rob's presentation. It seems there's a very > bountiful side of James that we don't get to see often enough, and > there are many people reading here that would benefit and enjoy more > of that kind of thing. You have mentionned that you might like to > write something Dhamma- related for kids someday. Why not try out > your chops here more often? 42547 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna Hi, Jon (and others) - Thank you much for pointing out that "this particular teaching need not be seen as limited to monks alone". Yes, I fully agree with you. And I also see that mundane insight should be taken as the very important step along our way toward the direct knowing -- contrary to some who just want to begin at the very top. But I have to be careful about the word "step", because it might be interpreted as MY attachment to a rigid step-by-step procedure being directed by a self. I am interested to know why you think "while condition #4 is a reference to sila in general and the guarding of the sense-doors (i.e., mindfulness) rather than the mere compliance with the rules of conduct". I think indriya samvara is a lot less than Patimokha sila simply by the reasoning that lay-Buddhists who are involved in the worldly matters can never practice the Patimokha to the perfection. Thank you for paying good attention to the Panna Sutta and for providing your valuable insight. >1. Living in apprenticeship to the Teacher or "a respectable comrade >in the holy life" with established "strong sense of conscience, fear of >blame, love, & respect". >2. Approaching the Teacher/comrade with Dhamma questions. >3. Achieving seclusion in body and seclusion in mind. >4. Dwelling restrained "in accordance with the Patimokha" ..."having >undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults". >5. After having heard so much, one retains what one has heard and >memorize it all well. Also by discussing, accumulating, examining and >well penetrating the Dhamma. >6. Keeping one's persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental >qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities" and not shirking >one's duties "with regard to skillful mental qualities"(kusala dhammas). >7. Speaking Dhamma or inviting another to do so and feeling "no >disdain for noble silence". >8. Remaining "focused on arising & passing away with regard to the >five aggregates" (panca-khandha). > >Panna Sutta, AN VIII.2 Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > Thanks for quoting this sutta. It contains much to reflect on. > 42548 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Dear Dhammanando, Thanks very much for the reference in Vis. Now I know where I read it in english version at least! I was trying to whack my brain trying to come up with the reference because as you say I didn't pay too much attention to the wording. - kel > There is another one at Visuddhimagga 442-3 (Path of Purification > XIV 28-31) and the .tiikaa to this. 42549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Venerable Bhante Dhammanando, Thank you very much. I find the Tiika translation very interesting. I did not know Bodhisattas would develop insight as far as sankhaarupekkha~naa.na. With respect, Nina. op 20-02-2005 16:19 schreef dhammanando@c... op dhammanando@c...: > There is another one at Visuddhimagga 442-3 (Path of Purification > XIV 28-31) and the .tiikaa to this. > > Here the same is said to apply also to paccekabuddhas and to > arahant disciples with the four pa.tisambhidaa. All need to > have carried out the pubbayoga consisting in discipleship > with a former Buddha and arrival at insight in the vicinity of > anuloma. > > In the English translation it's easy to miss it if one reads too fast. > One needs to start at paragraph 31: > > "Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach the discriminations through > prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so by all these > means." > > and then go back to the definition of the five means in paragraph 28, > where 'prior effort' (pubbayoga) is defined as: > > "...devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to > the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by > one who has practised [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject > on almsround] and coming back [with it]." > > In the Vis. Tiikaa the phrase "up to the vicinity of conformity and > change-of-lineage" (yaava anulomagotrabhusamiipa.m) is glossed as > sankhaarupekkha~naa.na. 42550 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] let it shake --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > We can also consider our birth here: in a sensuous plane. We like sense > impressions, we want to experience sense objects. There were the right > conditions for us to be born here. > Nina. This birth here is actual Dhamma, actual present moment. And yet, I am dead scared of "something" without sense impressions. Just an idea of something of that sort frightens my sense of being. Or maybe idea of "me being now" is just rejecting idea of any different situation. Specially one in which sense of my existence is not clearly insured in some sensual way. There is no tradition of wider, rich, more open view of existence in my life. There is now. metta, Agrios 42551 From: Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,140 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 140. (ix) By its means they have faith (saddahanti), or it itself is having of faith (saddahana), thus it is faith (saddhaa). Its characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. Its function is to clarify, like a water-clearing gem, or its function is to enter into, like the setting out across a flood (cf. Sn. 184). It is manifested as non-fogginess, or it is manifested as resolution. Its proximate cause is something to have faith in, or its proximate cause is the things beginning with hearing the Good Dhamma (saddhamma) that constitute the factors of stream-entry.63 It should be regarded as a hand [because it takes hold of profitable things], as wealth (Sn. 182), and as seed (Sn. 77). ------------------------ Note 63. The four factors of stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on good men, hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: absolute confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of noble virtue (S.v,343). 42552 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 128 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** When seeing-consciousness arises, each of the ‘universals’ which accompanies it performs its own function. Phassa which accompanies seeing-consciousness is eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassa). It contacts visible object. When there is eye-contact there is the coinciding of eye-base, visible object and seeing-consciousness. Vedanå, which is in this case indifferent feeling, experiences the ‘taste’ of visible object. Saññå ‘marks’ and remembers visible object. Cetanå coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas. Since seeing-consciousness is vipåkacitta, cetanå merely coordinates, it does not ‘will’ kusala or akusala. Ekaggatå performs its function of focusing on visible object; it does not focus on any other object. Jívitindriya sustains citta and the accompanying cetasikas until they fall away. Manasikåra ‘drives’ citta and the accompanying cetasikas towards visible object. Seeing-consciousness needs the accompanying ‘universals’ in order to cognize visible object; it could not arise and cognize its object without the assistance of the accompanying cetasikas. As we have seen, only the dvi-pañcaviññåùas are not accompanied by other cetasikas besides the ‘universals’. All the other cittas which arise in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process and also the paìisandhi-citta, rebirth-consciousness, the bhavangacitta, life-continuum, and the cuti-citta, dying-consciousness, are accompanied by other cetasikas besides the ‘universals’. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 42553 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna Hi Tep, (Jon & All) Thank you for your comments and the poitns raised on the Panna Sutta. So much can be read into on just one word, such as Patimokha, I find. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > I am interested to know why you think "while condition #4 is a reference > > to sila in general and the guarding of the sense-doors (i.e., > mindfulness) rather than the mere compliance with the rules of > conduct". I think indriya samvara is a lot less than Patimokha sila > simply by the reasoning that lay-Buddhists who are involved in the > worldly matters can never practice the Patimokha to the perfection. …. > >4. Dwelling restrained "in accordance with the Patimokha" ..."having > >undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults". …. S: I’m interested in this point too and had also been considering apects of the sutta when Jon replied. A few more reflections: We know that only the sotapanna (whether a bhikkhu or lay-person) has attained higher sila (adhi-sila) and is now a trainer or noble learner(sekha)who follows the training precepts or steps(sikkhaapada) without fail. (Like KenH and Maya, I don’t take ‘training precepts’ to be the same as ‘vows’ for the reasons they gave, but look forward to further comments by Suan and others). Nyantiloka in his dictionary quotes from Vism XV111 “that ‘Purification of morality (siila-visuddhi) consists of the 4-fold purity of morality (catu-paarisuddhi-siila), namely, restraint with regard to the Disciplinary Code (paatiimokkhasa’mvara-siila), sense-restraint (indriyasa’mvara-siila), purity of livelihood (aajiiva-paarisuddhi-siila), morality with regard to the 4 requisites (paccaya-sannissita-siila”. He then adds “that in the case of a layman, it entails the observance of ***whatever moral rules (5 or more) he has taken upon himself***.” In other words, as lay people, we can attempt to follow as many training rules as we like. In the commentary to the Udana (Meghiya chapter, Masefield transl)*, there are several pages on this very topic of the Patimokkha under ‘one possessing morality’ (being the second factor after association with a kalyaa.namitto as conducive to liberation for one ‘capable of being guided’.The other three given are ultra-effacement (abhisallekhataa), the initiation of energy and penetrative insight). Under the long section on sila and the Patimokkha, we read: ***** “The meaning of morality (siila.t.tho) is that of head (sira.t.tho), that of cool (siitala.t.tho), that of restraint (sa.mvara.t.tho). Since such morality, either to the extent of being completely fulfilled, or to excess, is his, he is ‘one possessing morality’ (siilavaa), meaning ‘one possessed of morality’ (siilasampanno). And to indicate how the one possessing morality is one possessed of morality, he said ‘As one rstrained by the Paatimokkha rstraint’ and so on. “Herein: the Paatimokkha (paatimokkha.m) is the morality associated with the items of the training. For it is the Paatimokkha (paatimokkha.m) since whoever keeps watch over (paati), guards, this, him it frees (mokkheti), sets free, from dukkhas such as those belonging to the states of loss and so on. "Restraint (sa.mvaro)is restraining (sa.mvara.na.m), being non-transgression through body or speech. It is the ‘Paatimokkha restraint’ since the Paatimokkha is itself restraint. He is restrained by the Paatimokkha restraint since he is one who is restrained thereby, one whose body and speech are held in check – this is a complete elucidation of his being established in that morality. “He dwells (viharati) is a complete elucidation of his being possessed of a dwelling (vihaara) conforming therewith. Being one possessed of proper conduct and pasturage (aacaaragocarasampanno) is a complete elucidation of the serviceable nature of the above Paatimokkha restraint and of his link, as below, with (states of) distinction. “Being one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom (a.numattesu vajjesu bhayadassaavii) is a complete elucidation of his non-liability to fall from the morality associated with the Paatimokkha. Undertaking (samaadaaya) is a complete elucidation of his taking (upon himself) without remainder the items of the training. He trains himself (sikkhati) is a complete elucidation of his possession of the training. The items of the training (sikkhaapadesu) is a complete elucidation of the things in which he is to train himself.” ***** S: So I think we can read the references to the Patimokha with the wider meaning of referring to the perfection of sila possessed by the ariyans,starting with the sotapannas, who see the ‘fear in sins even the size of an atom’ through the development of the eightfold path, eradication of grosser defilements and thereby no longer liable to rebirth in lower realms, regardless of whether they be bhikkhus or lay people. By contrast, the quote continues with regard to worldlings: ***** “A further method – it is the one whose habit is that of falling(patina) many times into the states of loss on account of the powerful nature of the defilements, on account of the easiness with which evil acts are performed and on account of the difficulty with which meritorious acts are performed, who is the faller (paatii), (that is to say), the putthujjana.” ***** I look forward to reading any further discussion you have with Jon or any of us on the points you highlighted from the Panna Sutta, AN V111,2 Metta, Sarah *Also see “Meghiya”, AN, Bk of 9s,3 which Nina recently referred to. Also, further quotes from the Udana and commentary in these previous posts:. #19008, #19046, #24187 ======== 42554 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Spiritual Friendship Hi Chris & All, You quoted some interesting comments here: --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > From a talk by Ajahn Amaro: > > "There is a very often-quoted saying in the scriptures on spiritual > friendship. One day Ananda, his closest disciple, came up to the > Buddha and said: 'Lord, I think that half of the of the Holy Life is > spiritual friendship, association with the Lovely.' And the Buddha > replied: 'That's not so; say not so, Ananda. It is not half of the > Holy Life, it is the whole of the Holy Life. > > The entire Holy Life is friendship, association with the Lovely.' > Now, the Pali word for 'friendship with the Lovely' is > kalyanamitta. 'Kalyana' means 'lovely' or beautiful and 'mitta' > means 'friend'. So it is often translated as association or > affiliation with the Lovely (with a capital L), being an epithet for > Ultimate Reality or the Unconditioned. .... S: In the commentary to the Meghiya sutta which I was just quoting from, the expression 'one with a lovely friend (kalyaa.namitto) etc is also discussed at length, but I don't see any suggestion of Lovely with a capital L, being an epithet of Nibbana in this context. I've quoted some of it before, so let me re-quote and add a little more as it is also relevant to the other thread with Tep: ***** From Meghiya Chapter, Udana 1 Meghiya, comy (Masefield, PTS): “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail.“This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liveration of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified....” It then quotes various suttas about the value of the ‘lovely friend’: “For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend” and so on (uttered by the Lord) to the Treasurer of the Dhamma when stating "This forms half, Lord, of the Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend" after having twice put a stop to this with "Do not (speak) thus, Ananda" (S v2) Earlier the commentary says: “Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes, tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is “one with a lovely intimate”. by means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend.” **** I find this last paragraph very helpful to reflect on. Isn't it true that whilst at times we 'slope...' towards listening and conversing on dhamma with good friends ('one with a lovely intimate'), at other times we 'slope....' in the opposite direction. I think this is often true (for me at least) regardless of the company I'm in - we may be with 'good friends' but wish to 'slope..' in directions not conducive to understanding of dhammas or we may be with 'not such good friends', but 'slope...' towards wise reflection. Do you have any further comments? Metta, Sarah ========= 42555 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) Hi James & All, --- buddhatrue wrote: >> James: This is true. I do hold back. I have found that I don't > have the equanimity needed to properly handle all the various types > of feedback I get from such posts. I don't know if this is a lack > of insight on my part or what, but I don't have a lot of patience > for certain people (except kids…with them I have lots of patience). ... S: As Nina once said to you, I think, we're really all just like kids in so many ways. I thought of you and Simon, your dhamma cat, at the weekend because I've been spending a lot of time these last few days trying to console my poor mother whose dear, dear cat, Millie got run over by her neighbour and close friend. She lives alone in an old cottage full of antiques in a very old English village which has very little traffic on its one lane. She got Millie has a small kitten too about a year ago and every conversation since that time has been full of 'Millie news'. My mother's been so happy with her playful companion and had all sorts of dreams about how Millie would outlive her and keep her company til the end. Millie never broke one of the antiques or even caught a bird - she was 'perfect'. She'd play while my mother tended to her large garden and all my mother's visitors loved her too. I found it so difficult to console her - talking to Buddhists on the list like yourself is so easy in comparison. One can always find a helpful sutta at such a time. My mother was sinking quite low and getting physically sick too. I tried to make various arrangements from a distance to help and talk to her every day, but she was crying a lot and I've been close to taking a flight to visit her. But you know what, suddenly she's picking up and beginning to respond to what I call semi-dhamma suggestions such as to let her neighbour who was driving(also desperately unhappy) and friends show generosity and kindness to her as a way of giving etc. She even surprised us by coming out with a few dhamma comments of her own. "You can tell all your friends on the list all about attachment" she said (prompting this note!!) and started to discuss the grief resulting from this big attachment to Millie! Thanks for listening - I've felt like a kid too, sad about the loss of this little cat that I never even met, but whose photo I have on display!! Metta, Sarah p.s yes, I hope Phil's move doesn't take 'months' - more attachment and grief;-) ======== 42556 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Dear Ven Dhammanando, Kel & Nina, Thank you very much for your input. I forget quite how Kel and I began to discuss this point, but it’s an interesting side thread in itself. (Kel, I’ll get back to our other points later- thx for your feedback). First, I followed Kel’s reference form > 1) Puggalapannatti, Ekakapuggalapannatti, as I have the English translation, but I couldn’t see anything in it about the prior attainment of bodhisattas: ... 28“What sort of person is a perfectly Enlightened One? Here a certain person who himself thoroughly understands the truths in regard to doctrines unheard of before, and attains omniscience therein, as well as mastery over the fruitions – this sort of person is said to be a Perfectly Enlightened One. 29“What sort of person is enlightened for himself? Here a person himself thoroughly understands the truths in regard to doctrines unheard of before, but attains neither omniscience nor mastery over the fruitions therof – this sort of person is said to be one enlightened for himself.” ... S: Am I missing something? Kel, I’m afraid you’ll need to translate the other passages you gave if you’d like me to consider them – too much dictionary work otherwise for Pali illiterates like myself!! --- dhammanando@c... wrote: > > There is another one at Visuddhimagga 442-3 (Path of Purification > XIV 28-31) and the .tiikaa to this. > > Here the same is said to apply also to paccekabuddhas and to > arahant disciples with the four pa.tisambhidaa. All need to > have carried out the pubbayoga consisting in discipleship > with a former Buddha and arrival at insight in the vicinity of > anuloma. …. S: Actually, this is very interesting as I have had some brief discussion before about one or two references to ‘anuloma’ in the texts. …. > In the English translation it's easy to miss it if one reads too fast. > One needs to start at paragraph 31: > > "Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach the discriminations through > prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so by all these > means." > > and then go back to the definition of the five means in paragraph 28, > where 'prior effort' (pubbayoga) is defined as: > > "...devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to > the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by > one who has practised [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject > on almsround] and coming back [with it]." > > In the Vis. Tiikaa the phrase "up to the vicinity of conformity and > change-of-lineage" (yaava anulomagotrabhusamiipa.m) is glossed as > sankhaarupekkha~naa.na. … S: Thank you for these clear comments and quotes. I think when I’ve read the passages before (probably in haste),I’ve taken the phrase ‘up to the vicinity of…..’ to mean ‘as far as the vicinity of ….at most’, i.e only the highest level before enlightenment is theoretically a possibility in a previous life, but ‘devotion to insight’ doesn’t mean this would be standard by any means. I’d have thought the complete opposite, otherwise what would there have been, bar a death at that time, nothing to prevent the bodhisatta or disciple becoming enlightened?? Can ‘yaava’ have this meaning of ‘as far as’ or ‘up to’ as a maximum limit in this context, I wonder? It does raise a number of obvious questions. For example, disciples such as Sariputta – I’ve always considered that prior to hearing the Buddha’s word in their last lives, no stages of insight were attained. Do you have any further comments or quotes? (Just if it’s no trouble). Kel, thanks again for raising these points. You were right in your original speculation that I would consider enlightenment inevitable for one who had attained this stage of insight. [A couple of 'btw' comments about this stage of insight, sankhaarupekkha~naa.na (knowledge of equanimity) about formations which may or may not be of any relevance to the discussions: 1. Vism XX1,79 –this insight can refer to the previous two insights- 3 aspects, including knowledge of desire for deliverance and knowledge of reflection. 2.Vism XX1,64 – if realization of nibbana is attained, ‘it rejects the occurrence of all formations’. If not, ‘it occurs again and again with formations as its object, like the sailors’ crow’, followed by the good simile. Thank you again for your help. I look forward to any further feedback or input, if convenient. Metta, Sarah ======= 42557 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun Hi James & Tep, As so often happens, I was hoping to just give a well-known sutta quote, rather than join in this thread, but it’s come back to haunt me;-). > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Sarah: Have you considered the Aggivacchagotta Sutta (To > Vacchagotta > > on Fire)in this connection? > > Could even arahants see flames which have been extinguished? > > > > James: The Buddha is using a metaphor in this connection and it > > isn't supposed to be taken literally. A flame is a conditioned > > phenomenon while nibbana is unconditioned; I'm sure you would > agree > > with me on that point ;-). … S: Ah, but a simile or metaphor (as you refer to it more accurately)is always used for effect. I wasn’t suggesting it be taken literally. BB’s own comments are that “Just as the extinguished fire cannot be described as having gone to any direction, so the Tathagata who has attained to final Nibbana cannot be described in terms of the four alternatives. The simile concerns solely the legitimacy of conceptual and linguistic usage {S: not sure about that line..] and is not intended to suggest, as some scholars have held, that the Tathagata attains to some mystical absorption in the Absolute. The words ‘profound, immeasurable, unfathomable’ point to the transcendental dimension of the liberation attained by the Accomplished One, its inaccessibility to discursive thought.”. …. J:>>What should be given more attention in > > this sutta is the Buddha's explanation: > > > > "Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is > > deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't > > apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' > > doesn't apply. > > "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... Any > > consciousness" …. S: Now BB gives proper commentary and sub-commentary notes on this: “MA says this is the material form by which one would describe the Tathagata as a being (or self) possessing material form. M.T adds that the material form has been abandoned by the abandonment of the fetters connected with it, and it has thus become incapable of arising again in the future.” [S: Of course, the same applies to the other khandhas – no more arising in any form, just like the flames of the fire that’s gone out]. … J:> > In other words, you cannot put conditions on that which is > > unconditioned. … S: That’s true and what was taken for the Tathagata, i.e the 5 khandhas or conditioned dhammas, no longer have conditions to arise or be perceived in any form after Parinibbana. …. T:> This Aggivacchagotta Sutta, in my opinion, gives the most specific > answer about the Buddha State and Nibbana. Thank you, James, for > shedding a bright light on this difficult subject on the relationship > between the Tathagata , Citta and Nibbana. … S: As I understand, during his life at moments of realization of fruition attainment, there was a relationship between the khandhas taken to be the Tathagata. After his parinibbana, no khandhas and therefore, no relationship. Have I missed your points? Metta, Sarah ======== 42558 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perceiver and Conceiver of the World Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Interesting Sutta especially for those who consider concepts as > non-existant. > > "That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver > of > the world -- this is called the world in the Noble One's Discipline." > > (Connected Disourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1190) ... S: Great sutta! What do you take 'the world' to refer to? Please elaborate on your comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I mostly agreed with your comments about the time-frame in the Satipatthana Sutta when you said 'the Buddha is speaking about folks who have the ability to become enlightened in these time periods. They already have the knowledge, training and potential insight "at their fingertips".' (I'll leave out the 'push';-)). James, with regard to aeons and so on - no need to think about it, otherwise there are bound to be expectations about that which we can have no idea. Present moment only, as Chris was stressing. ============================================ 42559 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Hi Maya (& Joop), I think you're having an excellent discussion and I liked all the points in your recent post a lot, Maya. Joop always asks deep questions. --- Waters Illusion wrote: > Sorry if i didn't address those questions earlier. I agree with > your first point, of course it is better not to think about the > outcome when performing a good action. In fact, one should not hope > for anything in return or else the action would not be a wholesome > action. What constitues a wholesome action is an action that is > beneficial to others, that is free from greed, hatred, and delusion. ... Well said - expectations and hopes for the future are never wholesome! ... > so, it becomes a > habit. For example, if you are used to cursing...it becomes so easy > to use curse words in your daily language...but difficult to speak > softly and nicely. Similarly, if you perform good actions, good > thoughts...your mind has become accustomed to thinking in this > possitive attitude...so that it becomes second nature. So, for me, > I don't know about others, but it makes sense to me, that at the > time of death...when our minds are half conscious and half not, > sorta in a state of delirium...these possitive thoughts just pop > up. ... S: Reminds me of the Balapandita Sutta, MN 129 'Fools and Wise Men': "Again, when a fool is on his chair or on his bed or resting on the ground, the the evil actions that he did in the past - his bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct - cover him, overspread him, and envelop him. Just as the shadow of a great mountain peak in the evening covers, overspreads, and envelops the earth, so too.....etc" Metta and appreciation. Sarah p.s Joop, I expect Maya prefers to be addressed as Maya!! =================================================== 42560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories TG >If memories are not "stored past perceptions"... that can be recalled and >strung together as thoughts, I was wondering what would memories then be >considered from an abhidhamma point of view? > > This is a good question. To my knowledge, the Abhidhamma talks about 'remembering' but not about 'memories'. I think the idea of 'memories' may be one of those cultural things that is not found at all times and in all societies. Does that sound feasible? On the other hand, 'remembering' could be seen as just a form of thinking about the past, where previous experiences are recalled. Jon 42561 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Descriptive training from The Buddha, support for my "experiments" Hi, Hugo Hugo wrote: >Hello Tep, Phil, James, Howard, Sarah, Jon, Rob (all of them), >Sukinder, and everyone else, > >I just found this Sutta, which seems to support my "experiments" > >:-) > > Sorry to be a bit slow here, but could you tell us which part of the sutta supports which of your experiments? That would make it a lot easier to comment. Thanks. Jon > >Digha Nikaya 21 >Sakka-pañha Sutta >Sakka's Questions > >"And how has he practiced, dear sir: the monk who has practiced the >practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions & >categories of complication?" > >"Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be >pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. >Equanimity is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. ... > > 42562 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:57am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge .../ Robertk's Finding about A. Mun --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & Tep, > > As so often happens, I was hoping to just give a well-known sutta quote, > rather than join in this thread, but it's come back to haunt me;-). > (snipped) > …. > T:> This Aggivacchagotta Sutta, in my opinion, gives the most specific > > answer about the Buddha State and Nibbana. Thank you, James, for > > shedding a bright light on this difficult subject on the relationship > > between the Tathagata , Citta and Nibbana. > … > S: As I understand, during his life at moments of realization of fruition > attainment, there was a relationship between the khandhas taken to be the > Tathagata. After his parinibbana, no khandhas and therefore, no > relationship. > > Have I missed your points? > > ======== Hi Sarah and James, ... - Sarah, I think the key words that give a hint about the Tathagata phenomenon are 'profound, immeasurable, unfathomable', and BB is exactly right to say that the Buddha's "transcendental dimension of the liberation" is "inaccessable to discursive thoughts". In other words, no matter how hard we think about it, none of us is going to reach any conclusion or understanding about "the flames, which have been extinguished" (as you put it). S: As I understand, during his life at moments of realization of fruition attainment, there was a relationship between the khandhas taken to be the Tathagata. After his parinibbana, no khandhas and therefore, no relationship. Have I missed your points? T: No, you haven't missed the points that can be understood by "discursive thoughts". Kindest regards, Tep ======== 42563 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - >... > Okay, great. So Abhidhammic hardness is identical with "hardness >experience"? Or are you saying that hardness is a rupa, independent of experience, >that may sometimes be experienced and sometimes not? > Neither of these two ;-)). We are talking about the present sense-door experience, of which the experience of hardness is an example. The Abhidhamma tells us the sense-door object is a dhamma that has impinged on the appropriate sense-door. I think this is also confirmed in the suttas: "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact." -- MN 18, Madhupindika Sutta ('The Honeyball'). The dhamma that is that present sense-door object can be the object of subsequently arising panna, and that panna can if sufficiently developed know all there is to be known about that dhamma, including the fact of whether it arises independently of the consciousness of which it is the object. This need not be a matter of speculation, assumption or inference. >If this latter is the case, then this is where I disagree. The only confirmable rupa is the experiential rupa. There is no knowing of the alleged rupas floating around in the Land of Unexperienced Rupas. That there may be such a realm of unexperienced rupas is unknown and unknowable, and is thus of no relevance to anything. > > There has been no suggestion of rupas floating around (just the opposite in fact: arising and falling away in and instant). I think the reason you keep alluding to 'bogey men' such as these is that the prospect of the rupa that is the present sense-door object arising independently of the consciousness of which it is the object presents a challenge to the phenomenalist view. But really, is there any problem in principle with such a hypothesis? > For me, it is starting and ending point. The only knowable sounds are >the experienced sounds. Beyond that, one goes into the realm of stories. They >may be nice stories, useful stories, but just stories nonetheless. > > Yes, the presently experienced sound is a dhamma that like all dhammas arises and falls away by conditions, and those conditions can be known by panna that has been sufficiently developed. >>1/ What is the basis for the idea that the presently felt hardness is >>not the direct experience of hardness that impinges on the body-sense? >> >> > Please see my earlier explanation. > > You have explained that the experienced sense-door dhamma is not the same as whatever it is that impinges on the sense-door itself, but is somehow derived from that impingement. Are you then not positing a sense-door impingement by something else, and if so what? Your model seems to call for there to be something 'out there' that impinges on the sense-door. Jon 42564 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Eight Conditions for the Arising of Panna Hi Sarah ( and Jon, ...) - Your presentation of the Patimokkha sila is commendable. S: He then adds "that in the case of a layman, it entails the observance of ***whatever moral rules (5 or more) he has taken upon himself***." In other words, as lay people, we can attempt to follow as many training rules as we like. T: I would like to bluntly comment that Nyanatiloka Bhikkhu says that the lay people have a lot greater freedom of choice with respect to moral rules than bhikkhus is simply because they are not bhikkhu. Being bhikkhus, according to the Buddha, means they have to attain higher sila, etc.. However, it is my belief that many lay people are going to spend "aeons" of uncountable rebirths unless they are less relaxed and become more conscientious in developing "higher sila" and following "the training precepts or steps(sikkhaapada) without fail". I really like your quote on the Patimokkha : "Herein: the Paatimokkha (paatimokkha.m) is the morality associated with the items of the training. For it is the Paatimokkha (paatimokkha.m) since whoever keeps watch over (paati), guards, this, him it frees (mokkheti), sets free, from dukkhas such as those belonging to the states of loss and so on". Indeed, how can anyone be free from dukkhas without keeping watch over and guarding (the salayatana)? Other characteristics of the Patimokkha sila from your presentation are : ## He is restrained bythe Paatimokkha restraint since he is one who is restrained, thereby one whose body and speech are held in check. ## Being one possessed of proper conduct and pasturage is a complete elucidation of the serviceable nature of the above Paatimokkha restraint. ## Being one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom is a complete elucidation of his non-liability to fall from the morality associated with the Paatimokkha. S: So I think we can read the references to the Patimokha with the wider meaning of referring to the perfection of sila possessed by the ariyans, starting with the sotapannas, who see the `fear in sins even the size of an atom' through the development of the eightfold path, eradication of grosser defilements and thereby no longer liable to rebirth in lower realms, regardless of whether they be bhikkhus or lay people. T: Very well said, Sarah! Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Jon & All) > > Thank you for your comments and the poitns raised on the Panna Sutta. So > much can be read into on just one word, such as Patimokha, I find. > 42565 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 2/21/05 9:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > > TG > > >If memories are not "stored past perceptions"... that can be recalled and > >strung together as thoughts, I was wondering what would memories then be > >considered from an abhidhamma point of view? > > > > > > This is a good question. To my knowledge, the Abhidhamma talks about > 'remembering' but not about 'memories'. > > I think the idea of 'memories' may be one of those cultural things that > is not found at all times and in all societies. Does that sound feasible? > > On the other hand, 'remembering' could be seen as just a form of > thinking about the past, where previous experiences are recalled. > > Jon > ========================= I think this is an important and interesting matter. My preference goes to the "process view", in part because I think it is more immune to substantialism/reification. Remembering has greater appeal to me than memories. That being said, however, I still find the need for there to be a "data basis" for remembering. The operation of remembering requires, it would seem to me, some sort of mindstream traces passed along that serve as basis for the remembering process. When I remember, as I did last night in a dream, the sweet songs, in her own voice, that my grandmother sang to me in Yiddish 55 to 60 years ago, the remembering can not be a magical something-from-nothing process. So, assuming that I am correct, what does the "data basis" consist of if not passed-along "memories"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42566 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hello KenH, On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:45:52 -0000, kenhowardau wrote: > Sorry, I thought you were making a joke - pretending to complain > that everyone, except you, knew the Middle Way. :-) I thought the reverse, so let's forget about that. > I said I was guessing the meaning of the suttas because that's all I > can do without expert help. Ah!, ok, thanks. > When I first became a Buddhist, I followed pretty much the same path > (no Abhidhamma, just sitting meditation, mindfulness of activities > and that sort of thing) that you are following now. That must sound > patronising, I'm sorry, but you did ask. Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. This tells me that perhaps now I have some specific perspective because I haven't read the Abhidhamma, and that perspective may change drastically after I read it. At least that happened to you, so, it may happen to me. Thanks for your reply. Now, the real trick is to make all perspectives go away, or at least not cling to them. > Now, I admit to knowing almost nothing. But, as you have noticed, I > do go on as if I know everything. Accumulated tendencies override my > better judgement. :-) :-) I have run into that in the past myself, and I verified that doing that brings a lot of suffering, I still do it sometimes, but now I am able to catch it before it grows too much. Thanks again for your reply and explanations Ken. Greetings, -- Hugo 42567 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/21/05 9:03:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > >If this latter is the case, then this is where I disagree. The only > confirmable rupa is the experiential rupa. There is no knowing of the alleged rupas > floating around in the Land of Unexperienced Rupas. That there may be such a > realm of unexperienced rupas is unknown and unknowable, and is thus of no > relevance to anything. > > > > > > There has been no suggestion of rupas floating around (just the opposite > in fact: arising and falling away in and instant). I think the reason > you keep alluding to 'bogey men' such as these is that the prospect of > the rupa that is the present sense-door object arising independently of > the consciousness of which it is the object presents a challenge to the > phenomenalist view. But really, is there any problem in principle with > such a hypothesis? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not clear on your position. Are you saying that from time to time a rupa arises, and, at that same moment consciousness arises which contacts that rupa, and likewise, at some moment consciousness arises, and at the same moment a rupa arises that is contacted by that rupa? That is, there are two separate but interdependent arisings, one rupic and one namic, but neither ever occuring without the other occurring? If that is your position, I find it not so bad, and, in fact, not very far from my own understanding. (The only nagging element in my mind on this is a slight question of "where" the rupas arise. But I realize that there may well be presuppositions involved in that question which vitiate the legitimacy of the question to begin with.) ------------------------------------------- > > > For me, it is starting and ending point. The only knowable sounds are > >the experienced sounds. Beyond that, one goes into the realm of stories. > They > >may be nice stories, useful stories, but just stories nonetheless. > > > > > > Yes, the presently experienced sound is a dhamma that like all dhammas > arises and falls away by conditions, and those conditions can be known > by panna that has been sufficiently developed. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I find the pa~n~na business as a bit of a red herring. It doesn't add anything to the discussion for me. (Might as well bring in divine providence! ;-) ------------------------------------- > > >>1/ What is the basis for the idea that the presently felt hardness is > >>not the direct experience of hardness that impinges on the body-sense? > >> > >> > > Please see my earlier explanation. > > > > > > You have explained that the experienced sense-door dhamma is not the > same as whatever it is that impinges on the sense-door itself, but is > somehow derived from that impingement. Are you then not positing a > sense-door impingement by something else, and if so what? Your model > seems to call for there to be something 'out there' that impinges on the > sense-door. > ------------------------------------- Howard: No, exactly the opposite. I do not believe in inexperienced rupas. The only rupas I know of are elements of experience. --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42568 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi again, Jon - Two reformulations: 1) I wrote "That is, there are two separate but interdependent arisings, one rupic and one namic, but neither ever occuring without the other occurring?" I should have said "distinguishable" instead of "separate" to be clearer. 2) I wrote "I do not believe in inexperienced rupas." That is amusing English! I suppose tht all rupas are inexperienced, as they never learn much! ;-)) The proper adjective should, of course, have been 'unexperienced'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42569 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Hallo Maya Now I understand your name is not Waters Illusion but Maya. But I think both are not your real name. Why do you use these two ? Maya was the mother of the Buddha, you identify with her? (My name is really 'Joop') Thanks for your reactions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" wrote: > > Joop, > > Sorry if i didn't address those questions earlier. I agree with > your first point, of course it is better not to think about the > outcome when performing a good action.In fact, one should not hope > for anything in return or else the action would not be a wholesome > action. What constitues a wholesome action is an action that is > beneficial to others, that is free from greed, hatred and delusion. Yes, that what I think too, and the rest is silence >Your second point,I don't know the mechanisms of the brain and the >memory, perhaps you would have to consult a neuroscientist about >that.However, I do know that if I perform certain actions over and >over again, it becomes second nature. For example, driving...or >walking...or typing...one rarely thinks about these things as most >of these activities have become an instant reflex. so,it becomes a >habit. For example,if you are used to cursing...it becomes so easy >to use curse words in your daily language...but difficult to speak >softly and nicely. Similarly, if you perform good actions, good >thoughts...your mind has become accustomed to thinking in this >possitive attitude...so that it becomes second nature. Till here I understand and agree. I think it's better only talk about 'good actions', that is 'good intentions''. Because 'thoughts' are already a result. >So, for me, >I don't know about others, but it makes sense to me, that at the >time of death...when our minds are half conscious and half not, >sorta in a state of delirium...these possitive thoughts just pop up. ... (snip)... I am not sure this happens, in fact I hope not to have 'thoughts'at all, I prefer to be empty, without attachments: not to 'my'life and not to others persons. What you tell about dying people, are that things you witnessed yourself? But still the big question is: what happens with alol the good and the bad intentions (for example opf you) after death. I don't know and to be honest: I prefer to say agnostic about it. > Again, I'm not a scientist, not a person who can explain technical > details...and i certainly do not have enough abhidhamma knowledge > to explain these processes...but all that I know through my > observations, I have just shared with you. > > HOpe it's clear. :) > > Metta, > ~Maya Thanks for sharing. But I am not sure if you are telling this because you think I can use this or that these are the themes you are bothering you most on this moment. Metta Joop 42570 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hello Jon, On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:03:55 +0800, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I gave some general comments in response to your post, and said I would > reply to your individual questions later, so here goes. Thanks, Hugo: > >>>Does this mean that I should stop worrying about keeping the 5 > >>>precepts, meditation, keeping a calm mind and go and party all-night > >>>on weekends as long as I don't think that it is "me" who is partying? > >>>and as long as I see all those ladies dancing around as just a stream > >>>of cittas (nice and curvy cittas by the way)? > >>> > > > >The next question is in a polite way: > >Could you please answer my question? > > > > Jon: > There is no straight 'yes' or 'no' answer here. We disagree here, but the rest we agree. In other words, I say that you should make an effort in keeping the 5 precepts and do some kind of supporting activities and you say that there is no straight answer. Jon: >The development of > insight is something that potentially may occur at any time regardless > of what we are doing, so the focus is not on doing or not doing this or > that particular thing, or seeing things in this or that particular way > (a kind of doing also). > > If your question is about supporting conditions, then the answer is any > and all kinds of kusala are to be encouraged, but particularly and > essentially the factors that I mentioned earlier and that you have > commented on below. > > I hope I have answered your question -- please let me know if not. Yes, we agree, those are "supporting" (I say activities, you say conditions). Jon: > Well, these are the factors given by the Buddha. Now the question is, > were they given as things to be *done as a practice*, or were they given > as things to know about so that with that knowledge our lives can be > better directed? I don't know, that's why I try it first as what they seem to be to me, if that works, then perhaps that's right. Also, I look at them the other way and see if that works. Do you know? How did you know? or How did you come to the conclusion that they were not given as "things to do"? Now the tricky part is to really know what is "working" what it isn't, the only measurement I can do is the amount of suffering I experience, but still what I may be experiencing is just "the calm before the storm". Hugo: >Yes, as long as we decide to subscribe to the list, read the posts, >and post something of our own, all of which require making a decision >of doing it. Jon: > Yes, all actions require intention, no argument about that. But are the > things you have just mentioned things that are to be done *as part of 'a > practice'*? YES!, The fact that I subscribed to this mailing list, is because I know that discussion (withing limits) is a factor that will help me understand more about what the Buddha taught! So, "discussion" is one of the many ways "I practice". Why don't you unsubscribe from this mailing list? Why do you keep posting? These are NOT rethorical questions, please explain to me how you can do the above without considering you are doing it because you want to understand Dhamma. Hugo: > >huh?, isn't it the reverse........my recent postings proved to be a > >RESULT of a lot of reflection of what I had heard and read > >previously......but not only that but it is a RESULT of also all the > >meditation sessions I have gone through, and all the experiments I > >have set up and analyzed, and all the changes I have made to "my > >practice" (i.e. including chanting, etc.). Jon: > Yes, that too. But let's not forget or underestimate the value of the > useful reflection that goes on almost unnoticed during the day as a > result of participation in discussions like this. Yes, I agree, and that's why I am subscribed to this and other mailing lists, because "I want" to understand Dhamma, "I have the desire" to understand Dhamma, "I cling to a self" and I know it, I am working on getting rid of it though. Now I understand that just by "wanting to understand Dhamma" I won't just Pooof understand it, I think that understanding Dhamma is like trying to see objects in the dark. How? Because of the way the eye works, under some light conditions if you try to see something directly you can't, you have to move your eyes around it so you see the desired object with the "side" of the eye. But it is tricky, the moment you perceive it, your eyes fix directly onto it and then you loose sight of it, you have to move your eyes around again until you find it. I am talking about little objects or details of an object under certain light conditions (almost dark, very dark but you just came from a lighted area). Try it, it is just physical stuff, just the way the eyes work, no "mental training" required. Jon: > >> Yet would you call your participation here 'doing something > >>in order to develop right view? -- I don't think so. Hugo: > >Huh? > > > >YES, I would say that my participation here is "doing something"!!!! Jon: > My question was meant to be: Would you call your participation here > "doing something *in order to develop right view*" (sorry for the > typo)? Again, every moment of our waking lives can be described in > terms of 'doing something', so that is not the issue here, as I see it. Yes, I will call that "doing something in order to develop right view", but with the understanding that "right view" is not something that I can "build" or "assemble" it will arise, so basically what I am trying to do is removing things out of its way. And yes, we are always "doing something", because we are always changing, but you know that, so no need to go deeper there. Hugo: > >Now, as I said in another post, I don't think we can "make right view > >appear", but we can "arrange", "encourage", "at least not put more > >rocks in the way" the conditions that will let right view to arise. Jon: > Yes, but presumably we are all doing as much as we are capable of right > now, given our (limited) level of understanding and the circumstances in > which we find ourselves (both of which we must take as 'givens'). Cool, so we keep agreeing in the major things it is just detais we disagree. You said "presumably", which implies that you are not sure, cool, I am not sure too, so both you and I do not know how capable we really are. So, what we should do? I think we should keep trying to do as much as we can but wisely, that means recognizing that we might not "accomplish" anything, but because we don't know what are our capabilities we should not stop actively trying. Jon: > As > long as we don't have the idea that the development of kusala is > technically impossible at this very moment, or that conditions would be > so much better if only things were different, or conditions will be so > much better when (whatever, whatever later event or set of circumstances > occurs), then there will be no rocks in the way of right view arising. I agree, but if I have the option to either stay at home or go and party all-night, which one should I choose? If I have the option of reading a science fiction novel or a Dhamma book, which one should I do? If I have the choice to watch T.V. or meditate, what should I do? That's what I am talking about. I know, we should watch wisely everything, but when you have an option, you should choose wisely, and all the choosing you make is because of a reason, and because the reason is to understand Dhamma, that makes that your "form of practice". Even if you don't have an option, if you resolve to watch with wisdom everything that becomes your "form of practice". Like me for example, because my wife enrolls me in a dinner with friends, I don't have the option to meditate, so what do I do, I go to the dinner, but I try to stay aware and mindful instead of just letting me "flow into the talk", of course I won't stay like an ostrich otherwise that would not be very well "accepted" by the society, so I merge with the talk, but I remain minful of what I say, I try to not "read between the lines", try to not fabricate any stories from what I heard or see, etc. Then THAT is my "form of practice". Jon: > Happy to, if you are ;-)) Yes, I am as long as it keeps being productive for both of us (but nor for long, I won't initiate any new threads, I am just closing old ones). The moment you or I get stagnated into that either you or I are right and the other is wrong, I don't see any point of keeping just hammering the same points over and over again. With this reply of yours, I see we agree much more than originally looked like. Thanks again for your reply, Greetings, -- Hugo 42571 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hello Charles, On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:17:28 +0100, Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > I hope this applies here: "Love and live the Dharma first and foremost (in mind, body (action) and speech), then do as you will." This my not be the right view, but it is a good view. If the Dhamma is first and foremost, then your "will" will lead you to right view, I guess. -- Hugo 42572 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions (II) Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 2/21/05 9:43:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > That is, there are two > separate but interdependent arisings, one rupic and one namic, but neither > ever > occuring without the other occurring? If that is your position, I find it > not so > bad, and, in fact, not very far from my own understanding. > ====================== I think I should explain why said that I find your position "not very far from my own understanding," rather than "the same as my understanding." I think there may be a difference in attitude. I sense, though I could well be wrong, that you believe in a stronger degree of independence between a rupa and the awareness of the rupa than I. (My perspective is summed up by "There is no awareness that is not awareness of some content, and there is no content that is not the content of a state of awareness.") To analogize, I picture you as seeing two people walking along sidewalks on opposite sides of a street, each under his own control, but with their steps and other movements coordinated in such a way as to be perfectly aligned in all respects, like two expert mimes. One person is vi~n~nana and the other arammana. I, on the other hand, picture the situation as a person walking along a sidewalk alongside a mirrored store front, with the person and his/her reflection perfectly synchronized. Of the person and the reflection, one of them is vi~n~nana and the other arammana. (BTW, I suspect that this metaphorical view may be shared by Larry. Taking the "person" as primary, I would think that he would see the person as vi~n~nana and the reflection as arammana, whereas I would see the person as arammana and the reflection as vi~n~nana.) With metta phor you, [;-) Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42573 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Descriptive training from The Buddha, support for my "experiments" Hello Jon, On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:42:27 +0800, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >I just found this Sutta, which seems to support my "experiments" > > Sorry to be a bit slow here, but could you tell us which part of the > sutta supports which of your experiments? That would make it a lot > easier to comment. Thanks. mmmmm.....if I need to explain, then I can see a long and painful thread being born here, but if you see blue while I see yellow, then it might be good to get to an agreement so we can both see green. > >"And how has he practiced, dear sir: the monk who has practiced the > >practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions & > >categories of complication?" Here it talks about human who has practiced. Then here: "'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of verbal conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of verbal conduct, 'As I pursue this verbal conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of verbal conduct is to be pursued. 'Verbal conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." It talks about observing ones own behavior to find out which conduct should be pursued. My "experiments" are about a human who practices by setting up some situations where this human can observe if mental qualities decline or increase then decide which conducts should be pursued and which should not. Now, please explain how it is not that way. Greetings, -- Hugo 42574 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 5 g Hello Nina, On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:03:28 +0100, nina wrote: > During this pilgrimage we experienced that association with wise friends is > of great benefit. When we were waiting at the airport of Patna, on our way > to Sikkim, one of my Thai friends, Khun Sukol, reminded me that we do not > want to accept that there is no self. [...] > I am grateful to the founder of the Maha-Bodhi Society, Anagarika > Dharmapala. If he had not initiated the preservation of the holy places we > would not be able to pay respect today to the Buddha at these sites and > commemorate his birth, his enlightenment, his first sermon and his > parinibbåna. If there is no self, who pays respect to The Buddha? If there are no selves, why do they want to preserve those holy places? If there is no self, why did you visit those site to commemorate those important events? If they want to preserve something isn't it going against what the Buddha taught? Isn't it more correct to say that "there is a self" but that self is not permanent? Greetings, -- Hugo 42575 From: dhammanando_bhikkhu Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Sarah: > First, I followed Kel's reference form > 1) Puggalapannatti, > Ekakapuggalapannatti, as I have the English translation, but I couldn't > see anything in it about the prior attainment of bodhisattas: Dear Sarah, I am posting translations of the second and third passages cited by Kelvin. The first passage in his post was just the Pugg. text on which the second passage is the commentary. It does not itself have any bearing on the issue. Regarding your questions, I will think about them tomorrow. Unlike the Visuddhimagga passage I posted, the following two deal only with the case of Sammaasambuddhas. From the Puggalapa~n~natti Atthakathaa: sammaasambuddhaniddese 'pubbe ananussutesuu' ti pacchimabhave saccappa.tivedhato pubbe a~n~nassa kassaci santike assutapubbesu. In the detailed exposition on Sammaasambuddhas, the phrase "with regard to [dhammas] not heard [by them] before" means: [dhammas] not heard by them before in the presence of another during the period before their penetration of the truths in their final state of existence. tato purimapurimesu pana bhavesu sabba~n~nubodhisattaa buddhasaasane pabbajitvaa tii.ni pi.takaani uggahetvaa gatapaccaagatavatta.m aaruyha kamma.t.thaana.m anuloma.m gotrabhu.m aahacca .thapenti. But in states of existence prior to that, Bodhisattas intent on omniscience, having gone forth in the dispensation of a Buddha, having learned the Tipi.taka, and having carried out the duty of maintaining their meditation subject while going out [for alms] and coming back, become established in the [stage of knowledge] that stops at conformity and change of lineage. tasmaa pacchimabhavasmi.myeva anaacariyakabhaava.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Therefore it is only in connection with not having a teacher in their final state of existence that this phrase ["dhammas not heard by them before"] is said. * * * * * * The other passage is from the Majjhima Atthakathaa's exposition of the Gha.tikaara Sutta (MN 81) [I have restored the abbreviated sutta passage -- as it is quoted by Buddhaghosa -- to its original form - Dh.] alattha kho, aananda, jotipaalo maa.navo kassapassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa santike pabbajja.m, alattha upasampadan' ti pabbajitvaa kimakaasi? ya.m bodhisattehi kattabba.m. What then, Aananda, did the brahmin youth Jotipaala do, having gone forth, obtaining the going forth and the full acceptance in the presence of Kassapa, the Blessed One, Arahant and Sammaasambuddha? [He did] that which should be done by Bodhisattas. bodhisattaa hi buddhaana.m sammukhe pabbajanti, pabbajitvaa ca pana ittarasattaa viya patitasi`ngaa na honti, For Bodhisattas go forth in the presence of Buddhas, and having gone forth are not like inferior beings who have dropped their horns. [this expression occurs nowhere else and I'm not sure what it means. Perhaps a military simile? -- Dh.] catupaarisuddhisiile pana supati.t.thaaya tepi.taka.m buddhavacana.m ugga.nhitvaa terasa dhuta`ngaani samaadaaya ara~n~na.m pavisitvaa gatapaccaagatavatta.m puurayamaanaa sama.nadhamma.m karontaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa yaava anuloma~naa.na.m aahacca ti.t.thanti, maggaphalattha.m vaayaama.m na karonti. jotipaalopi tatheva akaasi. Having become well-established in the fourfold purity of virtue, learned the Tipi.taka -- the Buddha-word, undertaken the thirteen austerities, and entered the forest, they fulfil the duty [of maintaining their meditation subject] while going out [for alms] and coming back, perform the dhamma of a sama.na, and cause insight to grow up to conformity knowledge, [but] stopping [there] they do not undertake any striving for the sake of the path and fruit. This is just what Jotipaala did. * * * * * * Final remarks: The Muula.tiikaa and Anu.tiikaa to the Puggalapa~n~natti offer no further clarification. The Majjhima .tiikaa has comments of relevance on two phrases: ''yaava anuloma~naa.na.m aahacca ti.t.thantii'' ti, anuloma~naa.nato orameva vipassana.m .thapentii ti attho. "having reached up to conformity knowledge they stop": insight is made to stop on only the 'near shore' of conformity knowledge, is the meaning. [I understand this to mean that it stops before anuloma is reached -- Dh.] 'maggaphalattha.m vaayaama.m na karonti' pa~n~naapaaramitaaya sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.nagabbhassa aparipu.n.nattaa aparipakkattaa ca. "they do not undertake any striving for the sake of the path and fruit" -- owing to unfulfilledness and immaturity in the perfection of understanding that is the matrix of omniscience. Best wishes, Dhammanando 42576 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi Sarah, > 28"What sort of person is a perfectly Enlightened One? Kel: Is it same as 22? I don't know if the numbering is the same. > I'm afraid you'll need to translate the other passages you gave if > you'd like me to consider them – too much dictionary work Kel: It's pretty much the same as what Bhante quoted from Vis. We can just use it. Commentary is where it was filling in the details. > S: the highest level before enlightenment is theoretically a possibility in a > previous life, but `devotion to insight' doesn't mean this would be > standard by any means. I'd have thought the complete opposite, otherwise > what would there have been, bar a death at that time, nothing to prevent > the bodhisatta or disciple becoming enlightened?? > Can `yaava' have this meaning of `as far as' or `up to' as a maximum limit > in this context, I wonder? Kel: I thought you would adopt this "maximum limit" view and I asked my teacher if it can be construed as such already. I'll just say the theory. Even disciples-to-be practice the jhanas up to the arupa complete with abhinnas. Also they repeatedly experience sankarupekkha to make panna more and more high quality. It goes back to how this nana work like you referenced, Vism XX1,64, in that until the proper time, the mind will keep circling and experience the same insight. Now as soon as they hear a Buddha teaching in the last life, it triggers the previous practices and they obtain enlightenment instantly since only the last step remains: anuloma. In other words, sankarupekkha insight is re-obtained rapidly owing to past practice. Also due to past jhana obtainments, they becomes arahats liberated in two ways or in the case of some obtain abhinnas first like Ashin Anuruddha. I think this model is self-consistent but you probably have a different one. > as Sariputta – I've always considered that prior to hearing the Buddha's > word in their last lives, no stages of insight were attained. Kel: I see it as opposite, Ashin Sariputta is the most developed in terms of loki panna, including sankarupekkha-nana. This also goes back to my previous discussion with Jon about meditation attainments. One can obtain certain nana but due to immaturity slide back down. Keep going up and down like this until sankarupekkha can be experienced again and again. Once that reaches full maturity, the crow will find land. Thus the more on can dwell and strike out the search from sankarupekkha, the better one's chance of finding nibbana. Now to be a Buddha or even a disciple, the level of maturity required is much higher than a normal person. Thus owing to that, they don't become enlightened prematurely and end up cultivating panna that is of orders of magnitude greater. Also there were questions of why unlike some normal arahats, Ashin Sariputta and Ashin Mahamoggallana didn't obtain arahat-hood instantly? I think they took two weeks and one week respectively. I believe commentary explains using simile of a king procession versus a peasant when travelling. A king's require much more preparation and that takes time. - kel 42577 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 5 g Hi, Hugo (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/21/05 12:12:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, eklektik@g... writes: > > Hello Nina, > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:03:28 +0100, nina wrote: > >During this pilgrimage we experienced that association with wise friends is > >of great benefit. When we were waiting at the airport of Patna, on our way > >to Sikkim, one of my Thai friends, Khun Sukol, reminded me that we do not > >want to accept that there is no self. > [...] > >I am grateful to the founder of the Maha-Bodhi Society, Anagarika > >Dharmapala. If he had not initiated the preservation of the holy places we > >would not be able to pay respect today to the Buddha at these sites and > >commemorate his birth, his enlightenment, his first sermon and his > >parinibbåna. > > If there is no self, who pays respect to The Buddha? > If there are no selves, why do they want to preserve those holy places? > If there is no self, why did you visit those site to commemorate those > important events? > > If they want to preserve something isn't it going against what the > Buddha taught? > > > Isn't it more correct to say that "there is a self" but that self is > not permanent? > > > Greetings, > -- > Hugo > > ======================= If I may butt in: There is the convention of a self, but there is no self. If there were a self, it would be possible to point out how and where to be aware of it, but upon careful looking, rather much as Hume said, there are only found bodily sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, recognitions, etc. No self is found, no personal core. Moreover, at the Buddha's time, Hinduism and the other extant religions understood by "self" not only something that is personal but that also is permanent, substantial, and self-existent, and this is not to be found. Even nibbana, though not impermanent and not conditioned, is impersonal and ungraspable, and is called, in fact, "the ultimate emptiness". We all seem to almost desperately want a fixed anchor to hold onto, but liberation comes by seeing that there is no anchor and in being willing to let go of *everything* - a daunting task. Even when nature offers us the possibility of this, the tendency is to run in fear back into our prison cell. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42578 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Tep & Sukinder I Hello Jon, On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:49:26 +0800, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Yes, there are many references in the suttas to 'training oneself', no > question about that. But I think you'll find there is no description of > just how that training is to be carried out. What about: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-14.html He should train, always mindful, to subdue any craving inside him. Whatever truth he may know, within or without, he shouldn't get entrenched in connection with it, [...] "One shouldn't be careless with his eyes, should close his ears to village-talk, shouldn't hunger for flavors, or view anything in the world as mine. [...] When gaining food & drink, staples & cloth, he should not make a hoard. Nor should he be upset when receiving no gains. [...] Not making much of sleep, ardent, given to wakefulness, he should abandon sloth, deception, laughter, sports, fornication, & all that goes with it; should not practice charms, interpret physical marks, dreams, the stars, animal cries; should not be devoted to practicing medicine or inducing fertility. [...] shouldn't buy or sell or revile anyone anywhere; shouldn't linger in villages, or flatter people in hopes of gains. The whole sutta is about exactly what you shouldn't do. > In short, I think 'training oneself' is a reference to the actual > development of insight (i.e., moments of awareness and understanding), > rather than to the means by which insight is developed (i.e., some form > of 'practice'). Do you still think like your above paragraph? Greetings, -- Hugo 42579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 5 g Hi Hugo and Howard, Thank you Howard for answering Hugo's question. Nina. op 21-02-2005 19:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Hugo: >> If there is no self, who pays respect to The Buddha? >> If there are no selves, why do they want to preserve those holy places? >> If there is no self, why did you visit those site to commemorate those >> important events? >> >> If they want to preserve something isn't it going against what the >> Buddha taught? >>> >> Isn't it more correct to say that "there is a self" but that self is >> not permanent? >>> ======================= > If I may butt in: There is the convention of a self, but there is no > self. If there were a self, it would be possible to point out how and where to > be aware of it, but upon careful looking, rather much as Hume said, there are > only found bodily sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, > recognitions, etc. No self is found, no personal core. > Moreover, at the Buddha's time, Hinduism and the other extant > religions understood by "self" not only something that is personal but that > also is > permanent, substantial, and self-existent, and this is not to be found. Even > nibbana, though not impermanent and not conditioned, is impersonal and > ungraspable, and is called, in fact, "the ultimate emptiness". > We all seem to almost desperately want a fixed anchor to hold onto, > but liberation comes by seeing that there is no anchor and in being willing to > let go of *everything* - a daunting task. Even when nature offers us the > possibility of this, the tendency is to run in fear back into our prison cell. 42580 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perceiver and Conceiver of the World In a message dated 2/21/2005 1:43:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Interesting Sutta especially for those who consider concepts as > non-existant. > > "That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver > of > the world -- this is called the world in the Noble One's Discipline." > > (Connected Disourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1190) ... S: Great sutta! What do you take 'the world' to refer to? Please elaborate on your comments. Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah In this case "the world" refers to the six sense objects, six sense bases, and six corresponding consciousness...based on context. The point of my post, of course, was to point out the Buddha using "conceiving" right alongside with "perceiving." There are apparently a lot folks who "think" conceiving and thinking don't exist because it isn't catagorized in some book that they hold dear. Maybe abhidhamma screwed up by not including thinking and memories as cetasikas. Maybe the compilers believed that perception covered those catagories. And I believe the Abhidhamma core texts mention "52 cetasikas and whatever other cetasikas there may be" leaving it open ended. I may be wrong on that, but think I remember reading it. TG 42581 From: Hugo Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 5 g Hello Nina and Howard, I agree with what Howard said, but I didn't see my questions answered. I quote again: > If there is no self, who pays respect to The Buddha? > If there are no selves, why do they want to preserve those holy places? > If there is no self, why did you visit those site to commemorate those > important events? > > If they want to preserve something isn't it going against what the > Buddha taught? > On this next question, note the use of quotes and that I say "it is more correct to SAY", I am not stating that there is indeed a self. > Isn't it more correct to say that "there is a self" but that self is > not permanent? Greetings, -- Hugo 42582 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories In a message dated 2/21/2005 6:33:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: the remembering can not be a magical something-from-nothing process. So, assuming that I am correct, what does the "data basis" consist of if not passed-along "memories"? With metta, Howard Hi Howard Yes, or perhaps actually ... "passed-along" impressions. Which become memories when the conditions to recall (or scan with attention) those impressions manifest. TG 42583 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/21/05 2:52:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 2/21/2005 6:33:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > the remembering can not be a magical something-from-nothing process. So, > assuming that I am correct, what does the "data basis" consist of if not > passed-along "memories"? > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard > > Yes, or perhaps actually ... "passed-along" impressions. Which become > memories when the conditions to recall (or scan with attention) those > impressions > manifest. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, that is more precise. ------------------------------------------ > > TG > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 42584 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Past Conditions and Present Conditions in Dependent Origination Hi All, Chapter XVII of the Visuddhimagga defines each of the links in dependent origination using the conditions listed in the Patthana. To help us better understand dependent origination, I have classified the various conditions into two groups as follows: - Past Conditions: these are conditions where the conditioning state (the cause) is in the past, perhaps even in a previous lifetime. There are two conditions which fall into this category; asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. Natural decisive support condition is the way in which tendencies, accumulations or habits influence the current mental state. - Present Conditions: these are the remainder of the conditions. For these conditions, the conditioning state (the cause) arises at the same time or immediately previous to the conditioned state (the effect). Ignorance conditions kamma through a number of present conditions. In other words, the presence of ignorance can immediately give rise to kamma. Kamma conditions the arising of consciousness (both at rebirth and during existence) through asynchronous kamma condition. This is a "past condition". Consciousness leads to nama-rupa which leads to sixfold sense bases which leads to contact which leads to feeling through a number of present conditions. In other words, the presence of consciousness can immediately give rise to feeling from the senses. Feeling conditions the arising of craving (craving for sense data) through natural decisive support condition. In other words, craving arises because of tendencies, accumulations or habits. This is a past condition. Craving conditions the arising of sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) through natural decisive support condition. In other words, clinging arises because of tendencies, accumulations or habits. This is a past condition. Clinging leads to becoming which leads to birth which leads to aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through both kamma condition and present conditions. Clearly we can see the critical role that our tendencies, accumulations or habits have in binding us to samsara. They are called fetters and they are all rooted in delusion. If there is a pot of boiling water on the stove, we can try to stop the steam by putting on a lid and holding it tight (in other words, we can try to develop wholesome tendencies to "counteract" our negative tendencies). However, the real solution is to turn off the fire of ignorance. Metta, Rob M :-) 42585 From: Carl Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Jatis Hi, Well, I'm all bogged down. Will somebody kindly pull me out of the mud again :-) After starting to understand sensory rupas as having having an intrinsic desireable/undesireable nature and that this intrinsic nature is the condition for the arising of either kusula-vipaka- citta or akusala-vipaka-citta , I tripped over a kiriya-citta. I read(snips below) in reference to "five-sense-door adverting- consciousness" 1. they are vipakacitta 2. they are kiriyacitta Are the "five-sense-door adverting-consciousness" vipaka-citta or kiriya-citta? or am i just real confused? :-) Thanks Carl ================================================================ Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. ....(snip................ Cittas can be of the following four jatis: akusala kusala vipaka (result ) kiriya (inoperative, neither cause nor result) ......(snip........... ================================================================== From: LBIDD@w... Date: Tue May 14, 2002 4:34 pm Subject: ADL ch. 8 (2) ....(snip)........ ADL: Thus there are five pairs of ahetuka vipakacittas which arise depending on the five sense-doors. .........(snip)... ================================================================== From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:11 pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. ....snip).....N: These are the kiriyacittas which are the five- sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. .. (snip)... ==================================================================== carl>...end comments, and snips............ ==================================================================== ==================================================================== From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:59 am Subject: `Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. Introduction [contd] ***** The reader may find it cumbersome to know which types of cetasikas can accompany which types of citta, and to learn the different classifications of the groups of defilements. Such details, however, help us to be able to see the danger of unwholesomeness and the benefit of wholesomeness. When we know with what types of citta the various cetasikas are combined we will come to understand the underlying motives of our actions, speech and thought. Detailed knowledge will prevent us from taking for kusala what is akusala. In order to help the reader to understand the variety of cetasikas which accompany different cittas, I shall first summarize a few basic points on citta I also dealt with in my Abhidhamma in Daily Life. Cittas can be classified in many ways and one of these is the classification by way of "jati" (literally birth or nature). Cittas can be of the following four jatis: akusala kusala vipaka (result ) kiriya (inoperative, neither cause nor result) The cetasikas which accompany citta are of the same jati as the citta they accompany. Some cetasikas accompany cittas of all four jatis, others do not. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and we often do not know that a different citta of another jati has arisen after the present citta has fallen away. For example, we may think that the present citta is still vipakacitta, the result of kamma, when it is actually akusala citta with attachment or with aversion on account of the object which is experienced. Seeing, for instance, is vipaka-citta. The moment of seeing is extremely short. Shortly after it has fallen away, cittas rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance may arise and these are of a different jati: the jati which is akusala. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== =============================================================== From: LBIDD@w... Date: Tue May 14, 2002 4:34 pm Subject: ADL ch. 8 (2) Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 8 (2) The ahetuka vipakacitta which sees an unpleasant or a pleasant object through the eyes is seeing-consciousness, in Pali: cakkhu-vinnana (cakkhu means eye). The ahetuka vipakacitta which hears an unpleasant or a pleasant object through the ears is hearing-consciousness, in Pali: sota-vinnana (sota means ear). The ahetuka vipakacitta which smells an unpleasant or a pleasant object through the nose is smelling-consciousness, in Pali: ghana-vinnana (ghana means nose). The ahetuka vipakacitta which experiences an unpleasant or a pleasant taste through the tongue is tasting-consciousness, in Pali: jivha-vinnana (jivha means tongue). The ahetuka vipakacitta which experiences an unpleasant or a pleasant object through the body-sense is body-consciousness, in Pali: kaya-vinnana (kaya means body) . There are two kinds of ahetuka vipaka experiencing an object through each of the five doors: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. Thus there are five pairs of ahetuka vipakacittas which arise depending on the five sense-doors. There are also other kinds of ahetuka vipakacitta which will be dealt with later on. The ten ahetuka vipakacittas which are the 'five pairs are called in Pali: dvi-panca-vinnana (two times five vinnana). They are: 1. Cakkhu-vinnana (seeing-consciousness): akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling); kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha 2. Sota-vinnana (hearing-consciousness): akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha; kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha 3. Ghana-vinnana (smelling-consciousness): akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha; kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha 4. Jivha-vinnana (tasting-consciousness): akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha; kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha 5. Kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness): akusala vipaka, accompanied by dukkha vedana (bodily painful feeling); kusala vipaka, accompanied by sukha vedana (bodily pleasant feeling) The ahetuka vipakacittas which see, hear, smell and taste are invariably accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling), no matter whether they are akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka. The citta which dislikes the object may arise afterwards. This citta is sahetuka (with hetus or roots) and it is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Or the citta which likes the object may arise; this citta which is also sahetuka may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. We are inclined to think that the dvi-panca-vinnanas can occur at the same time as like or dislike of the object, but this is not so. Different cittas arise at different moments and the feelings which accompany the cittas are different too; none of these realities should be taken for self. ================================================================== From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:11 pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into focus in the mind door, N: When visible object, sound, or another sense object has been experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process, it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between these processes. Later on mind-door processes of cittas which have concepts as objects may arise. Vis. text: then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises accompanied by equanimity, as it were cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. N: The Tiika explains that after the arising of the retention (tadaaramma.na-citta which may arise at the end of a sense-door process), to be followed immediately by bhavanga-cittas, the five-sense-door adverting consciousness adverts to the object and that it should be said that this is immediately followed by seeing, etc. However, the Tiika states that in this exposition the two kinds of adverting-consciousnesses are dealt with. Therefore, the latter cittas (seeing etc.) are not mentioned here. With regard to the words, as it were cutting off the life-continuum, the Tiika adds: as it were interrupting the continuity of bhavanga- cittas. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness should be understood as adverting. N: These are the kiriyacittas which are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. Nobody can direct the adverting-consciousness to interrupt the stream of bhavanga-cittas, nor can anyone cause the adverting-consciousness to advert to a particular object. The object has already impinged on one of the sense-organs and interrupted the stream of bhavanga-cittas already. It all happens too quickly and cittas follow their course because of the appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. ================================================================= 42586 From: Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Proliferations of Perceptions and Memories Hi Jon In a message dated 2/21/2005 6:00:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: TG >If memories are not "stored past perceptions"... that can be recalled and >strung together as thoughts, I was wondering what would memories then be >considered from an abhidhamma point of view? > > This is a good question. To my knowledge, the Abhidhamma talks about 'remembering' but not about 'memories'. I think the idea of 'memories' may be one of those cultural things that is not found at all times and in all societies. Does that sound feasible? TG: Not to me. I can't think of any cultures or societies that don't have the idea of memory. I think some of the more intellegent animals can remember without have the idea about memories; and THAT may have been true for primative humans in the stone age or more primative days, but today I don't think so. On the other hand, 'remembering' could be seen as just a form of thinking about the past, where previous experiences are recalled. TG: This is what it would seem like to me. Previous experiences being recalled is the remembering. But what is being recalled are the memories or more accurately... the sense impressions/residue left over from past experiences. But I was under the impression that you didn't think thinking existed? All of this has to do with thinking. Now I'm wondering, what will you think up next? ;-) Jon TG 42587 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:29pm Subject: Re: Jatis Hi Carl, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > Well, I'm all bogged down. Will somebody kindly pull me out of the > mud again :-) > > After starting to understand sensory rupas as having having an > intrinsic desireable/undesireable nature and that this intrinsic > nature is the condition for the arising of either kusula-vipaka- > citta or akusala-vipaka-citta , I tripped over a kiriya-citta. > > I read(snips below) in reference to "five-sense-door adverting- > consciousness" > 1. they are vipakacitta > 2. they are kiriyacitta > > Are the "five-sense-door adverting-consciousness" > vipaka-citta or kiriya-citta? or am i just real confused? :-) After the falling away of the bhavanga, there arises a five-sense- door adverting consciousness which is kiriya (not associated with kamma or kamma-result). This is the first citta of the process to "touch" the new object. Once the object has been "touched", the next citta will be one of the five kusala sense-consciousness (eye- consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc.) or one of the five akusala sense-consciousness, depending on which door (eye, ear, etc.) at which the new object has arrived. Metta, Rob M :-) 42589 From: Waters Illusion Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Hahaha...if you must know My real name is "Mayarina Sari Putra". People call me Maya for short...yeah for some reason my name is very buddhist. However, Maya is a very multicultural name. :) 42590 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Ultimate and Conventional Truths, Citta and Nibbana Hi Sarah, James, Larry, Howard, Hugo, RobertK and others - [Please ignore the previous message that was sent a few minutes ago] We have discussed ultimate and conventional truths, citta (stream of consciousness) and Nibbana. There are still more to talk about. Most materials on these topics are not conveniently found in a single on-line article, except this one: The Heart Is Knowing. http://www.dhammasala.org/theheart.htm This article was a translation from a Dhamma talk by Luang Pu Dun (Dulaya Atulo), who was believed to be an Arahunt by those who knew him well. A biography of Acharn Dun may be found at the beginning of the article. I think it might be useful to present an excerpt from this relatively not- well known Dhamma talk for your information. "The practice of Dhamma is the practicing of calm and insight meditation (Samatha-Vipassana-Kammatthana) and it is only concerned with going beyond dukkha. In short, the citta is Buddha; the citta is Dhamma, a special state of not coming or going with complete purity and without the need for "someone" pure or "one" who knows that they are pure. It is above both good and evil. It does not have the character of physical form (Rupa) or mentality (Nama). When one has attained this "state" the different tendencies of the citta, or that which is called the citta's activities, in both Samatha and Vipassana (as in seeing bright lights etc.,) must be recognized as things external. These things are illusions and created not to be taken with any interest or as real. Even the attainment of the meditative absorption (Jhanasampatti) is just something worldly and nothing special at all. This can be seen from the practice of the Lord Buddha who abandoned all these things (dhammas). When entering final Nibbana (Parinibbana), the Buddha withdrew from the fourth jhana abandoning feeling (Vedana), following the abandonment of all the other states of the citta. Finally the life continuum (Bhavanga Citta) was abandoned and discontinued. This was the end of the "cycle of existence" Sankharavattha) at that moment and is called "Nibbana" and the complete cessation of all things (dhammas). Therefore neither bright lights nor jhana attainments or even the Bhavanga Citta should be clung to because they are all things that arise and cease, created and belonging to the world. "This citta is something that is constantly arising and ceasing according to its nature and does not persist in anything, being also subject to cessation. If we speak in terms of ultimate Dhamma truths (Sacca-Dhamma-Paramattha), even "Buddho", "Dhammo" and "Sangho" are just conventional truths (Samutti-Pannati). The Lord said that he had destroyed the house of craving and that craving could no longer build another house of birth in the future. Birth was finished for him even though the citta was in the same natural state as before which was persisting citta (Thiticitta) and persisting Dhamma (Thitidhamma). This is the reason that monks must be careful not to fault or speak of offences of an Arahant, for an Arahant has even given up goodness and he is completely above good and evil. One should be careful not to cling to some discourses (Sutta) which fault an Arahant for not joining in the social activities or performing Sangha duties with the other monks. "When one begins to practice one should not get involved with the fictitious tales of the former lives of the Buddha (Jatika); one should concentrate only on the citta. One should pay no attention to what one sees, hears or listens to but should only face the citta until one is able to see this citta. One will then enter the "state" where one sees truly and penetrates the Dhamma until arriving at the final ceasing of the citta. Going beyond the conventional truths includes the Dhamma. All senses, which are illusions, and even the citta itself, are all conventional truths. It does not matter what we talk about or when; no subjects go beyond conventional truths. Stopping thought is to stop talk, movement and the actions of the citta. This means stopping everything worldly or the cycle of existence (Samsaravattha) because the citta can only think in terms of things external, created and of the world. Knowledge must have a subject that is known this is self- evident. Whether physical or mental, when that thing is known, it has a state and when it has a state it must be of the nature to cease. This is because it is something created and dependent on conditions. "Therefore, the factor of enlightenment, which is equanimity (Upekkhasambojanga), is difficult to express in words and is, called a "state" only conventionally so that one can understand. In truth the state of equanimity is just peace and knowing. All things are equal, whether animal, person, we, they or even Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha or Bodhisattas. All worldly people and beings have the same nature and are equal in all respects. "When clinging to various views or thinking outside of true Dhamma, all actions, practices and Dhamma conduct (Cariya-Dhamma) are then seen as multiple and different, creating dualities. When one reaches the true state of Dhamma, they see that external things around them and themselves are, in truth, one and the same. "In short, the state of Truth or that which is called "Saccadhamma" is always present and if one does not give up or relax in their efforts one has the chance to attain this state of Saccadhamma for sure. As far as all the ceremonies and merit making activities are concerned, they are things that still create good kamma but for the practitioner, they may think that it is the lesser good only. [end of excerpt] Kindest regards, Tep =============== 42591 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 128 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (l) Hello Sarah, and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] > ***** > When seeing-consciousness arises, each of the `universals' which > accompanies it performs its own function. Phassa which accompanies > seeing-consciousness is eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassa). It > contacts visible object. When there is eye-contact there is the > coinciding of eye-base, visible object and seeing-consciousness. > Vedanå, which is in this case indifferent feeling, experiences the > `taste' of visible object. Saññå `marks' and remembers visible object. > Cetanå coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas. Since > seeing-consciousness is vipåkacitta, cetanå merely coordinates, it > does not `will' kusala or akusala. Ekaggatå performs its function > of focusing on visible object; it does not focus on any other object. > Jívitindriya sustains citta and the accompanying cetasikas until > they fall away. Manasikåra `drives' citta and the accompanying > cetasikas towards visible object. > Azita: are all these cetasikas 'known' by the time 'one' becomes sotapanna, or is it only a Buddha that knows them? By known, I mean experienced and understood for what they really are - anatta, anicca, dukkha. > Seeing-consciousness needs the accompanying `universals' in order to > cognize visible object; it could not arise and cognize its object without > the assistance of the accompanying cetasikas. ....snip..... Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 42592 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,140 Dear Larry and other friends, I want to add to this passage. It is something I heard on a tape recorded in India in '01. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 140. (ix) By its means they have faith (saddahanti), or it itself is > having of faith (saddahana), thus it is faith (saddhaa). Its > characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. Its > function is to clarify, like a water-clearing gem, or its function is to > enter into, like the setting out across a flood (cf. Sn. 184). It is > manifested as non-fogginess, or it is manifested as resolution. Its > proximate cause is something to have faith in, or its proximate cause is > the things beginning with hearing the Good Dhamma (saddhamma) that > constitute the factors of stream-entry.63 It should be regarded as a > hand [because it takes hold of profitable things], as wealth (Sn. 182), > and as seed (Sn. 77). > ------------------------ > Note 63. The four factors of stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on > good men, hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice in > accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: absolute confidence in the > Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of noble virtue > (S.v,343). "Saccanana - one will follow the Sacca (truth) when one knows the reality which appears is the reality which Panna can understand completely, absolutely, when it develops. So we don't move away to having something other than the present. For ex. seeing right now can be the object of awareness and understanding, otherwise we keep going away from it, never be aware of it, keep away from it all the time. So then, there is no way to understand the absolute reality which is conditioned, or only by conditions can it arise and appear." Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 42593 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,140 Hello again friends, I realised I mixed up Saddha with Sacca, it was meant to follow on - oh well........ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Larry and other friends, > > I want to add to this passage. It is something I heard on a tape > recorded in India in '01. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > > > 140. (ix) By its means they have faith (saddahanti), or it itself is > > having of faith (saddahana), thus it is faith (saddhaa). ........snip, snap, stop..today is an "S" day...:-) > "Saccanana - one will follow the Sacca (truth) when one knows the > reality which appears is the reality which Panna can understand > completely, absolutely, when it develops. > So we don't move away to having something other than the present. > For ex. seeing right now can be the object of awareness and > understanding, otherwise we keep going away from it, never be aware > of it, keep away from it all the time. > So then, there is no way to understand the absolute reality which is > conditioned, or only by conditions can it arise and appear." > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 42594 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:12pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 129 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** The ‘universals’ have different qualities as they arise with different cittas. For example, when kusala citta arises all the accompanying cetasikas, the ‘universals’ included, are kusala as well. Vedanå, feeling, which accompanies kusala citta can be pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. Cetanå, volition, which accompanies kusala citta has a double function: it coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas and it ‘wills’ kusala. If it motivates wholesome deeds it is capable of producing the appropriate result when it is the right time for it. Thus, kusala cetanå is different from cetanå which accompanies vipåkacitta. When the citta is akusala, all the accompanying cetasikas are akusala as well. Vedanå which accompanies akusala citta can be pleasant feeling (in the case of lobha-múla-citta), unpleasant feeling (in the case of dosa-múla-citta), or indifferent feeling (in the case of lobha-múla-citta and moha-múla-citta). As regards cetanå which accompanies akusala citta, this has a double function: it coordinates the accompanying dhammas on the object and it ‘wills’ akusala. If it motivates unwholesome deeds it is capable of producing the appropriate result when it is the right time. Ekaggatå, concentration or one-pointedness, which accompanies akusala citta is different from ekaggatå which accompanies kusala citta. Thus we see that mental phenomena which arise together condition one another. If we have more understanding of the many different conditions for the phenomena which arise, it will help us to see them as elements, not as a person, a self. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 42595 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Personlessness Teachings Not Against Precepts: (Was: fifth precept question: Hi Sarah. -------------- > S: A very interesting area of discussion. You may like to check #25363 and > #25544 for relevant quotes. -------------- Thanks, I read them and coincidentally I heard the five precepts being discussed on tape (Burma trip 17/10/03). To summarise; a precept is kept in a moment of abstention from wrong action (that is, in a moment when citta is accompanied by the cetasika, virati). Naturally, there can be abstention only when there is opportunity. However, people (including many DSG members, I'm sure) say they have been keeping the precepts for certain periods of time. That makes no sense to me - am I keeping the precepts now? On the tape, there was the rhetorical question, "If there is no opportunity, how can you call that keeping the precepts?" Another question asked on the tape was, "When there is abstention from killing, is there, at that moment, any thought of precepts?" My answer would be, "No" and so I wonder why the precepts are referred to as training rules. I'm not saying they are not training rules, and I find 'rule accepting' a more appealing concept than 'vow taking.' I'm sure when you explain why they are training rules I'll say, "Oh yes, I hadn't thought of it that way." :-) Ken H 42596 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jatis Hi Carl, --- Carl wrote: > > Well, I'm all bogged down. Will somebody kindly pull me out of the > mud again :-) …. S:I’ll just give a few brief comments as I don’t think you’re very stuck (or rather the mud is not too bad :-)). Others may add more. …. > After starting to understand sensory rupas as having having an > intrinsic desireable/undesireable nature and that this intrinsic > nature is the condition for the arising of either kusula-vipaka- > citta or akusala-vipaka-citta , …. S: I think we should stress, as Nina said, that the main cause of kusala or akusala vipaka is kusala or akusala kamma. Of course, without an object having arisen(the rupa you mention), without a sense-base and without the preceding cittas, there would not be the appropriate conditions for that kamma to bring its result. …. I tripped over a kiriya-citta. > > I read(snips below) in reference to "five-sense-door adverting- > consciousness" > 1. they are vipakacitta > 2. they are kiriyacitta …. S: I think in the passages you quoted, you are confusing: a) panca-dvara-vajjana cittas ("five-sense-door adverting-consciousness") which are kiriya (inoperative- i.e neither cause nor result- cittas) and b) cakkhu-vinnana (seeing-consciousness) etc which are the vipaka (result of kamma) cittas which immediately follow the panca-dvara-vajjana citta above. This is why panca-dvaravajjana citta is also given as a condition for seeing, hearing etc. If you look in Useful Posts under ‘processes’ (vithi), you’ll see clear charts of the order of cittas. OK, I’ve just copied from the first one of RobK’s who quotes from ‘Realities and Concepts’: ***** >The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1.atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga). 2.bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga). 3.bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door. 4.five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pañcadvåråvajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta. 5.sense-cognition (dvi-pañcaviññåùa, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipåkacitta. 6.receiving-consciousness (sampaìicchana-citta), which is vipåkacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santírana-citta) which is vipåkacitta. 8.determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15 seven javana-cittas ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats). 16.registering-consciousness (tadårammaùa-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipåka citta. 17. registering-consciousness.< ***** > Are the "five-sense-door adverting-consciousness" > vipaka-citta or kiriya-citta? or am i just real confused? :-) … S: Kiriya, and yes, you just confused them a little with the following vipaka cittas. If you look again at all your good quoted passages, you’ll see there’s no discrepancy as there seemed. I think of the sense door adverting consciousness as paving the way (patipada), after the bhavanga cittas have been interrupted, for the vipaka citta, i.e seeing or hearing etc to arise and experience the visible object or sound or other sense-door experienced rupa. Metta, Sarah p.s It’s great to see your interest in the Abhidhamma, Carl. Please keep asking any questions. =============================== 42597 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Dear Ven Dhammanando (& Kel), Rather than rushing to make further comments now, I'd just like to thank you very much indeed for translating these passages so beautifully and for adding your own comments and additional Tiika notes which are very helpful indeed. The Puggalapa~n~natti Atthakathaa always seems to have a wealth of detail (and also MN Atthakatthaa as well). I appreciate your sharing of these and Kel's raising the passages in the first place. I think it may be of significance that these passages only deal with the case of Sammasambuddhas - obviously very special cases. I'll also wait for any further comments by you or anyone else on any of the other points. The 'near shore' of conformity knowledge which you understand to me before anuloma. I think this must be right because we read in the texts that *immediately* after conformity (anuloma) and change of lineage (gotrabhuu) that the lokuttara cittas follow in the same process,entering into absorption. Is there anything further on the 'near shore'? I believe I've seen something relevant, but can't place it for now. Kel, your further comments are also very interesting. I don't know if Ven Dhammanando, Nina or anyone else has anything further to add on them. I'm very grateful to you for checking these points with your teacher. Again, I may come back to it later, but need to 'digest' your comments first. (Meanwhile, I'm going to pick up our earlier thread of any unfinished business.) Metta, Sarah ======= Key passages: --- dhammanando_bhikkhu wrote: > tato purimapurimesu pana bhavesu sabba~n~nubodhisattaa buddhasaasane > pabbajitvaa tii.ni pi.takaani uggahetvaa gatapaccaagatavatta.m aaruyha > kamma.t.thaana.m anuloma.m gotrabhu.m aahacca .thapenti. > > But in states of existence prior to that, Bodhisattas > intent on omniscience, having gone forth in the > dispensation of a Buddha, having learned the Tipi.taka, > and having carried out the duty of maintaining their > meditation subject while going out [for alms] and > coming back, become established in the [stage of > knowledge] that stops at conformity and change of lineage. ***** > catupaarisuddhisiile pana supati.t.thaaya tepi.taka.m buddhavacana.m > ugga.nhitvaa terasa dhuta`ngaani samaadaaya ara~n~na.m pavisitvaa > gatapaccaagatavatta.m puurayamaanaa sama.nadhamma.m karontaa > vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa yaava anuloma~naa.na.m aahacca ti.t.thanti, > maggaphalattha.m vaayaama.m na karonti. jotipaalopi tatheva akaasi. > > Having become well-established in the fourfold purity > of virtue, learned the Tipi.taka -- the Buddha-word, > undertaken the thirteen austerities, and entered the > forest, they fulfil the duty [of maintaining their > meditation subject] while going out [for alms] and > coming back, perform the dhamma of a sama.na, and cause > insight to grow up to conformity knowledge, [but] > stopping [there] they do not undertake any striving for > the sake of the path and fruit. This is just what > Jotipaala did. 42598 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perceiver and Conceiver of the World Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > In this case "the world" refers to the six sense objects, six sense > bases, > and six corresponding consciousness...based on context. The point of my > post, > of course, was to point out the Buddha using "conceiving" right > alongside with > "perceiving." .... S: Without going back to check in context, I assume these are referring to citta vipallasa and sanna vipallasa, i.e perversion of thinking and perception which arise with all unwholesome cittas, when there is 'conceiving' or 'conceptualising' about the "worlds' above in ignorance. We read more about these in the Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Honeyball Sutta and so many other 'favourites' discussed here at length, when there is the attending to the signs and details (nimitta & anupyanjana)instead of awareness of the presently appearing dhammas. .... >There are apparently a lot folks who "think" conceiving > and > thinking don't exist because it isn't catagorized in some book that they > hold > dear. ... S: ;-) Now what would that book be? Conceiving and thinking are cittas arising in the mind-door process. In context they are unwholesome cittas accompanied by unwholesome sanna (perception) and other mental factors which 'proliferate' about various concepts on account of those "worlds". .... > Maybe abhidhamma screwed up by not including thinking and memories as > cetasikas. ... S: Objection! Thinking (citta + accompanying cetasikas such as vitakka and vicara) and remembering or marking (sanna + other cetasikas) are definitely included! Now, the concepts or memories - the stories about the "worlds" are mere fantasies or dreams imagined or conceptualised. Hence the sutta is stressing the need to be aware and understand the worlds for what they are. Btw, in terms of the six sense bases it refers to, the cittas I've mentioned are included in the 6th internal sense base - internal mind base and the cetasikas in the 6th external sense base - external mind base. Concepts and memories are not included because they are not dhammas which have characteristics (lakkhana) to be known by awareness and insight. ... >Maybe the compilers believed that perception covered those > catagories. ... S: Pls let me know if I haven't clarified. ... > And I believe the Abhidhamma core texts mention "52 cetasikas and > whatever > other cetasikas there may be" leaving it open ended. I may be wrong on > that, but > think I remember reading it. ... S: Nina wrote a detailed post on this point recently to RobM, #42433. I know she'll be very glad if you have any comments or questions on it. I've been a bit lazy (short of time) to check back to the sutta, but I'll be very glad to discuss it in more detail if these comments don't satisfy as it's a favourite sutta of mine which I haven't looked at for ages. Metta, Sarah ========= 42599 From: Joop Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Maya (& Joop), > > I think you're having an excellent discussion and I liked all the points > in your recent post a lot, Maya. Joop always asks deep questions. Hi Maya (& Joop), I think you're having an excellent discussion and I liked all the points in your recent post a lot, Maya. Joop always asks deep questions. … Reminds me of the Balapandita Sutta, MN 129 'Fools and Wise Men': … Metta and appreciation. Sarah p.s Joop, I expect Maya prefers to be addressed as Maya!! Dear Sarah and Mayarina I don't know who is the fool and who is the wise. But Sarah, you think that a discussion between two such different people as Maya (I prefer Mayarina because I'm oldfashioned) and me must give a creative result: a intuitive and a philosophical personality. To repeat: I was not the kamma-concept as such that gives me a problem, my problems were (a) kamma is hard to describe in the technical terms of Abhidhamma. But I do understand now enough of it to live with (b) as I said to Htoo some weeks ago: how to be a buddhist without believing in rebirth ? But I do. More general: more and more I can live without opinions. I still have some and a part of them are unwholesome but I'm working on it. Maya, you told that you from Indonesia. Can you tell something about buddhism in Indonesia, is it Theravada, Mahayana or a mixture? And how is it to live with your ideas in Texas ? Metta Joop BTW: tomorrow I go for ten days to a place in the mountains without internet