45001 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > # any customary observance or practice > # of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual > killing" > # the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies > # stereotyped behavior > # of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals > > I have rituals I perform every day they help me stay on track and not > forget things, ritual is a tool I use for my faulty memory. I have a > bowl by my front door that I put my house keys in when I come home and > when I go out again I know exactly where they are. Why is ritual wrong > if it is done with the awareness of the Moment as in staying aware of > sensations as you go about your day? > > I take ritual like sitting meditation, as a way to replace bad habits > and establish good habits in the beginning when I first started > meditating. This gave me a quiet place inside myself that I could sit > quietly where ever I am. Also ritual has many meanings so maybe I am > not clear on how the board uses it. > > I know that just sitting will not deliver me from suffering because I > sit all day at the office and that does not seem to help my ignorant > reactions to pleasant and unpleasant sensations. I read Abhidhamma > and Sutra daily but that does not seem to help me overcome deeply > seated ways of reacting when I get stressed although it does help me > understand different aspects of body and mind and also gives me a good > understanding of other peoples mind sets. > > Ritual can be used to establish new and healthy ways of going about my > day like driving a car, there are customary practices and observance > when driving that a beginner has to remember moment by moment all the > time when they are driving or they may get a ticket or even worse kill > themselves and or someone else. After driving for some time the rules > become second nature and observing the rules during driving is without > effort and becomes much easier. It seems to be the same way when > learning the Law of Nature. > > >[Htoo] > > I will repeat. > > > > It is at higher level to attain such state of mind. What state of > > mind? It is the state of mind, when all 4 satipatthana are working. > > So there is no need to say any 'rituals' or formal or anything. > >What matter is 'TO FULLY KNOW NAMA AND RUPA THAT ARISE IN THE SENSE > >FIELD'. > > [Lisa] I would think if someone has attained that state of mind having > to do dishes or a ritual of some kind would be done correctly and > mindfully. They would be able to see all 'things' as equal. > > >[Htoo] But for beginners, they do need sappaaya sampajanna. > > [Lisa] if I understand correctly sampajanna is the constant thorough > understanding of impermanence. That is what vipassana meditation > teaches and sitting formally is helpful in establishing a well focused > mind to see this constant flow. > > >[Htoo] Just reading and just understanding is not realization. As > >soon as he or she has a stroke that attacks all the memory of learned > >matters, then there is nothing as Dhamma left. > > [Lisa] I had often wondered what would happen at death or chronic > illness if one loses the ability to feel and think. I would like to > hear more about this if there is any material online I have a few > articles from my teachers on this, I would like to read more about it. > > > >[Htoo] But for realized ones, whatever they have such as cancers or > >strokes or anything, they still have their wisdom. Because wisdom is > >from their real experience. As I frequently say, sati, viriya and > >panna have to come together. > > [Lisa]viriya (perseverance, effort), sati (mindfulness, awareness), > samadhi (focussed attention) and panna (right understanding of things > as they really are). I also think faith and effort are also important > adhitthana, and saddha. > > >[Htoo] Just reading and understanding on facts is not realization. > >Actually there may be lobha in thier understanding. > > lobha: (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root lubh to desire greatly] > Covetousness, avarice, stupidity. > > [Lisa]I agree with that, I've gone back through sutras I've read a few > years ago and my understanding is very different than it was a few > years back I am know I suffer covetousness of how I see things. > > >[Htoo] But some intelligent people are still thinking that realizers > >are doing rituals like formal meditation. > > [Lisa]A ritual is just a tool and I am sure someone who understands > Dhamma can see that and use it correctly and when done with it but it > down and continue on. > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > With Metta, > Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Lisa, Thank you very much for your reply. Especially I would like to thank you for thorough explanation on rituals. I think your explanation will be far more comprehensible than Robert K would explain. I think I can sense a very small point that you made. I have agreed with Sarah for a point and I left more points to agree. And I announced that when I come to discover those points I would declare those points. You well explain on rituals. I did see people who were walking very slowly even in awkward posture of walking like bending the knees, closing the fists, closing the eyes to the depth of buried eye-lashes while she or he is trying to force to arise sati and panna. Thanks Lisa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45002 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi Tep, The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying that learning to the present moment. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Tep, and all, 'Sonasingaala dayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti'. Dogs, foxes know when they go. But such knowing is not satipatthana. Satipatthaana explains well. It is The Buddha words that say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati'. This is conventional talking. The practitioner will sense with his own sense. Senses can only sense senses. Not concepts. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45003 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, Thanks for you postive reponse. I go little by little and ask for you comment on every point in each post. 1. Many Buddhist who join dsg cite modern teachers as evidence for this or that practice. Recently you mentioned Mahasi Sayadw, Pa Auk, and U Ba Khin and other teachers as evidence of those who teach some formal practice. I have to say I do not believe this is the right way - in these days- to approach Dhamma. You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. In fact now Pa Auks books have been banned in Burma as Mahasi method has become orthodox. The big controverises in the early days of mahsi are forgotton (not that I agree with Pa Auk).] Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding to a layteacher (who I was informed was U Ba Khin) and how he was very contoverial at that time (in the sixties) . But now it becomes orthodoxy in burma - and new students have no idea, they take it all on board. I never used to bother putting in teachers nmmes as I thought simply explain Dhamma and those who can see will understand. Now I think there is so much attachment to the modern teachers that it is necessary to bring these matters up. These moderns appeal because they alwasy have a short cut that involves much effort .?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala and akusala. Hard to see which is which. Still becuase anyone can make effort they are very popular. I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin. Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. Delusion - but taken as the right way. So wrong effort was producing wrong concentration and ..... We have to strive to become independent to become our own refuge in the Dhamma - and that only comes by insight into what sati really is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't be hurried. But if we attach to the teacher we will not be able to pass through. We have to look at the modern teachers critically, do they conform with Dhamma. Or are there little flags up where they add something new. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > > > Htooo if you sincerely want me to explain in detail, then reply to > this email seriously and in detail. If you make oblique comments or > then I will leave it at this. > > Robertk > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Robert K, > > Thanks for your invitation. Could you please explain me in detail? > This > is serious request. Apology for not replying in detail as 'snipping' > is > essential here. I am just a beginner. I am just a learner. I am > flexible. I am malleable. I have been exploring Dhamma. I am not an > advanced learner like you. Actually I have been learning many things > from you and your posts not only in DSG but in other lists. I am > always 45004 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/1/05 5:34:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > So the question, what befalls someone who dies > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > mind effect their rebirth? ======================= Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of enormous upset there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the sacrificing of clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad choice at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45005 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Thanks Philip, You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip <...> Hi Charles, Ken and all > > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to > do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like > generosity. > -------------------------- Charles, you're probably thinking of the paramis. They are six in Mahayana, 10 in Theravada. As you say, mental factors, but the mental factors are realities as well. <...> 45006 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858: Importance of Sikkha & SAnna buddhistmedi... Hi Lisa and Htoo - I truly enjoyed reading your posts. One very important key idea in the dialogue between you two (messages # 44977 and #44983) is that sanna (perception) is a requisite for sati (mindfulness) and that good sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna, anatta-sanna, viraga-sanna) must be trained (sikkha). When the right kind of sanna has been trained, it "sinks in" and the opposite one will be completely replaced; for example, anicca-sanna replaces nicca-sanna. Lisa is right to say that "rituals" are an important building block of sikkha. Let me quote a few references to confirm such important fact. 1) The Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' 2) Perception is also subtly related to themes of Mindfulness Immersed in the Body [Kayagatasati]: "There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain". [AN IV.14 § 50 in Part II: The Seven Sets, C. The Four Right Exertions, Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu.] 3) "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk --having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy". [AN X.60, Girimananda Sutta] 4)"And what is the perception of abandoning? There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning. -- AN X,60. Tep's Notes: 'Exertion to abandon unwholesome thoughts' is the same as the Perception of abandoning. 'Exertion to guard' is the same as sense-faculty restraint. The four exertions together is seen as samma- vayamo or Right Effort, a factor of the Eightfold Path. 5) The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as Adhicitta-sikkha means. "Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. "Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. "Then, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases". [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > # any customary observance or practice > # of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual > killing" > # the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies > # stereotyped behavior > # of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals > > I have rituals I perform every day they help me stay on track and not > forget things, ritual is a tool I use for my faulty memory. I have a > bowl by my front door that I put my house keys in when I come home and > when I go out again I know exactly where they are. Why is ritual wrong > if it is done with the awareness of the Moment as in staying aware of > sensations as you go about your day? > 45007 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:24am Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles > You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the > 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? Let me write down a few things from Nina's "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which is available at abhidhamma.org No, come to think of it, I will try it as a closed-book test to see what I have retained from reading and rereading it last year. I can't remember if there is a proper order they should be in, but the perfections (paramis) are sila, dana, wisdom, renunciation, determination, metta, truthfulness, energy, patience and equanimity. Why are there 10 in Theravada and 6 in Mahayana and do they have the same significance? I don't know. I guess they were condensed as they evolved. I don't remember the Mahayana perfections, but maybe determination was absorbed within energy, or renunciation within dana or something like that? I'm grateful for your question, because I don't think about the Perfections the way I did last year. I remember learning that the Buddha developed the perfections over many lifetimes, and I think there is the idea that they supported him. We usually don't want to think of accumulating kusala (eradication of akusala seems more beneficial) but I sense there is something like the accumulation of kusala in the perfections. It is hard to develop panna, but the perfections give us strength to persevere. Something like that. Shoot, I don't remember much. I remember the very first post I sent to DSG last year was to ask how I should go about developing the perfections, which one I should start with and so on. At that time clearly they appealed to me as something I could do intentionally to develop mnyself into a more wholesome person, like a workout regime at the gym. And I learned that it is not necessary or skillful to think about which perfections to develop - the opportunity to develop them will arise or not arise due to conditions, but we can be aware when there is the opportunity. I also learned that it is not necessary to perfect all ten. It will depend on one's accumulations which are developed or not. Perhaps because of accumulations, I, for example, am developing patience in this lifetime. So we are born with a tendency to develop some perfections more than others? How many of them are kusasla cetasikas and how many of them are...something else? I don't think patience (khanti) is a cetasika. I've learned recently that it is contained within virya (energy) which is soemthing I'll want to think more about. Is truthfulness a cetasika? I don't think so, but.. I remember thinking that the perfections reminded me of a book I read years back when I was briefly interested in Christian gnosticism called "The Imitation of Christ." It felt to me that the perfections provided us with a way to imitate the Buddha, but now I think there is too much self-interest involved in that kind of thinking. It is a mistake to think that we can decide to develop Buddha-like virtues, here and now, by will power. Thus the emphasis in Nina's book on developing the perfections over a long period of time. (ie lifetimes rather than years) I think when I read Thich Nhat Hahn there was much more of the imitation of the Buddha kind of thing - pleasant and inspirational material to feel good about oneself within a single cup of tea. Please check out Nina's book at abhidhamma.org and perhaps someone else will add to what I've written. I read and read and read and retain so little! Metta, Phil 45008 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing Dear Sukin ( and all interested members of DSG ), First I intended to reply the final part of your post about 'sutta'. But now I take time to have effective communication. You wrote: Dear Htoo, I have to write this with interruptions from my children. So I will skip much of your post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We cannot control anything. So we cannot control 'interruption'. Christine knows that I will be busy in these days and may be I would be out of internet for months. Because I cannot control anything. Anatta. :-)). So skipping is also OK, for me as you would also be OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is first? Chick or egg? Sukinder: Don't know why you ask, but are you talking about pariyatti and patipatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once Upasaka Howard said that he saw my dry joke. Actually I just made a joke. Teaching is teaching. Labels are labels. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's > > knowledge of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here what I see is you quote 'unlike you'. You are referring me as > > an 'advanced abhidhamma learner'. Where you know very fine points, > I > > would not say you are a beginner. > > > > What is real is I am a beginner. :-)) Sukinder: I have learnt so much from your writings, which I may not have come upon on my own. Your knowledge is very wide and all comprehensive, but more importantly you are able to look at the same thing from various angles and then show them to others. And this is very remarkable. Also I think you are developing the paramis to a good extent. If you are a beginner, then I am a beginner amongst beginners. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmmm.. smile :-)). Let it be as it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Because I just have 'abhidhammatthasangaha' text. I do not have > > Abhidhamma Pitaka. I do not have any of 7 texts of abhidhamma > namely > > dhammasanganii, vibhanga, dhaatukatha, puggala pannatta, > kathavatthu, > > yamaka, patthaana. Sukinder: Yes I know that. Your memory and attention is remarkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not that level. I still do have forgetfulness and confusion. Examples are I still confuse Ken O/Ken H, Rob K /Ro M, gazita/azita, Jon /Zon etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So I am a genuine beginner. I learned a lot from Sarah, Nina, Rob M, > > Rob M, Ken O, Ken H, Kel, you and many others. Sukinder: No doubt about this too. We can and do learn much from one another. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I am here and in other lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > But you cannot be a beginner. Because you do know 'formal practice' > > and 'real practice'. Sukinder: :-) If I may express an opinion based on some speculation. I hope it is not too presumptuous. I think part of the reason your views about practice is what it is today, is because of your respect and reverence for the tradition you were brought up in and the various Teachers that you look up to. But I think that you go too much in that direction when you say that they are "all valid". Conditions are very complex and I can't identify exactly which causes are more likely to lead to the desired result and which are not likely to do so, if at all I can identify the causes and really understand the result. But to say, that they "all" are good. This confuses me about your view!!?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are people who go to retreats of different traditions and some did not satisfy. I had an example case. Once one approached a teacher and learned from the teacher. That one said, 'the results were good' but later said again that 'the results are not the same when compared with the teachings in the text in the form of sutta. And finally the one left the teacher. Why I said 'all are good' is that there does exist 'goodness'. I do know that there are many conditions. But the goodness does exist and does reside in each tradition. I said this because I looked under the microscope of abhidhamma and each tradition does have goodness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure > > almost everyone would be interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will bring it when I find it. Actually I should have noted it in a book for later reference. What I believe is that the teacher is right and said with good intention. But interpretations are not the same by different followers. I will do when I find, OK? Sukinder: Ah, now I remember. You are referring to something K. Sujin said aren't you? You did mention this before, and yes, please do bring it up when you find your source. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)). Dear Sukin. I must say you do have very good memory and attention and both are remarkable. And you can penetrate what is behind something. One of the members here tried to find out what it was. But you instantaneously know the fact. My source is in the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let you know and bring it here up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: In the meantime let me mention that I don't believe that any of us who respect her, "believe" her words without reason and some understanding. I don't think any of us would have the degree of confidence, if what she said were not experienced by any degree of panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I respect K Sujin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences > > patipatti, then I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please do not mix > 1.pariyatti > 2.patipatti > 3.pativedha > I think you are referring 'experiences patipatti' as pativedha. Sukinder: No I mean patipatti, as in satipatthana. I think for most of us, most of the time, any understanding is only on the `thinking' level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 3 panna. Sutaamaya, cintaamaya and bhavanaamaya panna. Without bhaavanaa there is no way to realize Dhamma. Without bhaavana, all understanding will be just memories of what other taught and own logical thinking and the results of thinking. But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead to 'rituals'. That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or anything like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are many ion DSG who meditate, I believe. Sukinder: And here you are saying that those who meditate, that they experience patipatti? In other words you are certain that these `conventional entities' involved in `conventional activities' are experiencing the `dhamma' patipatti? You judged this simply by virtue of what they say they do, i.e. meditate? Or do you understand this from what they have written about dhamma? Do they ever write about the dhammas arising and falling in the moment? Or do they mostly talk about what they "do"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of kickstart. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think > > already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't > > like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show > > that they have different objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Sukinder: And these are simply `conditioned dhammas', do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just names and label. Pariyatti is learning, giving facts, taking facts. Patipatti is going over the fact. Pativedha is absorption of facts. The three words are not the same heading. Please note 'pari' and 'pati'. Pari here is related to parikamma or preparatory actions. Teachings-wise there is no such distinction. But implication-wise they are labeled separately. So all 3 words are just names. Teachings is teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without > much, much patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I believe there is just a thin layer between you and me. Otherwise > our understanding will be almost the same. > That thin layer might be discovered later. I have declared the points > to Sarah. When I find it, I will bring it up here on DSG forum. Sukinder: If on identifying the thin line it causes us to agree on this important point of `study and practice', then I will rejoice :-). But I don't picture myself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good to discuss. But again there arises a thin layer again. I say this because you said you don't picture yourself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the > understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that > pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for > realization. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If a condition, it is yes. But it is not an equation. There > definitely are 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. Sukinder: Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't > be satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course. But you need to set up a profile. > The right satipatthana is only possible for arahats. Otherwise > according to your definition, there will be rituals. :-)) Sukinder: There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of satipatthana as rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I sensed was that this is just overlogification by using abhidhamma knowledge. 1. Sarah denied. 2. Amara bitterly denied 3. You denied that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking about training. In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached The Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > Yes a good concept to explore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I expected that you will answer when you reply. But you now > just restate what I put. I could not find anything 'formal' in Suttas.\ Sukinder: As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is extracted by DSG people. The Sutta, Mahasatipatthana does say : 'Kathanca pana bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamulagato vaa sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallinka.m aabhujitva, ujum kaaya.m panidhaaya, parimukha.m sati.m upathapetva. So satova assasati, satova passasati. Diigham vaa assa santo ''dhigam assasaamiiti pajaanaati,...' The Buddha did not say anything related to 'someone is trying to develop sati and panna'. What I notice is that these are 'thoughts derived from those who learned abhidhamma and they deny because they seem not fit to their understanding. But actually it is not the case. Equally, The Buddha did not encourage 'bhikkhus try to concentrate on pannatti such as breath and sitting position'. I just referred to The Buddha's words, and sutta's expression. But people say 'this is ritual'. ;-) :-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: So the idea about time, place, activity thinking that this is more likely to condition sati and panna, and that this is then carried over to the "other" times, this special non- pakati activity is what I label as `formal' mediation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha did say 'place'. Arannagato, rukkhamulagato, sunnagaaragato etc etc. The Buddha did say 'activity'. Viharati, sati.m, upathapetva, pajaanaati etc etc. This is conventional teaching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: So I am not surprised that you did not find it in the Suttas, because the Buddha did not teach it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So why brought up? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: Whatever the monks were doing during his time, those were pakati for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is generalization. Because the time in question is inaccessible. As you and DSG member would say rituals, there must have been rituals in The Buddha time. Only maturity would have corrected that rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Once The Buddha and His disciples were in a forest near a great > village, where they depended for the days for alm rounds. The village > is called Kammaasadhamma. It was in the state called Kuru. Kuru may be near today Deli. There The Buddha talked to His disciples how satipatthana had to be kept. > 'O! Bhikkhus' 'Bhikkhave'. This is a single way for liberation. This is the only way for liberation. This is the way for liberation without any alternative routes.' Sukinder: So you are talking about the teachings of Satipatthana. Where does `formal meditation' fit here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just quote the words in satipatthana sutta. When I put forward, then 'formal meditation' word arose. Actually I did not fit anything. I just wrote things from satipatthana sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I understand it, the people of Kuru were not involved in meditation centers and such, but it was pakati for them, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Atthakathaa says that mahasatipatthana sutta was taught to bhikkhus in the forest near the Kammaasadhamma village of Kuru country. If you want to label as 'meditation centre', the centre was in the forest and the teacher was The Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: in each and every daily activity that they were involved in, to practice satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see is that 'when the whole lot has not been discussed, critics attack severely'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > 'Which four? O! Bhikkhus. The disciple > (bhikkhu/practitioner/meditator) has to live looking/noting body, > feeling, mind, dhamma diligently and clearly understandingly so as > not to arise lobha and dosa which are loka'. > As what The Buddha said is 'to be free from lobha, dosa' and also > invloving 'clearly understanding', which means free from lobha, > satipatthana is DEAD SURE the genuine practice that The Buddha > Himself walked and all other Bodhi walked. Sukinder: But NOT `formal sitting' or any non-pakati activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not the one who introduce formal or informal sitting. I just posted from the sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And surely not about observing bodily postures, but rather the paramattha dhammas arisen `by conditions' through the six doorways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is The Buddha instructions to His disciple bhikkhus. Mahasatipatthana sutta does say: 'Puna ca para.m bhikkhave bhikkhu gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati, thito vaa 'thitomhii'ti pajaanaati, nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii'ti pajaanaati, sayaano vaa 'sayaanomhii'ti pajaanaati.' These are The Buddha words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And we have to remember that satipatthana is also a pakati dhamma arisen through complex conditions, and deliberate observing is not one of those. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did add 'delibrate' when I posted to a list where Amara was there and she became angry with those words. 'Delibrate observing'? :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is genuine practice that The Buddha taught. If this is accused > > of ritual or 'formal practice', by avoiding this practice, no one > > would be liberated. Sukinder: I hope you now understand the distinction I make. Satipatthana, yes, but not formal meditation. One question, is jhana at all necessary in all this? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is sidetrack. But it is OK. I will not answer whether jhana is necessary or not. Judge yourself. What I would say is that if one is in jhana, he is not at satipatthana and if one is at satipatthana he is not in jhana. Remember that all anagams are reborn in 4th jhana brahma bhuumis called 1. avihaa 2. atappaa 3. sudassaa 4. sudassii 5. akanittha What are patisandhi cittas of these rupa brahmas? ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you do not refer to the whole Tipitaka. Sukinder: I think the important point is not so much to read it all, but not to `leave out' any part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good point. OK. You said 'not so much to read it all, but not to `leave out' any part'. Could you please post 'a part' [not to leave out any part] of mahasatipattha sutta, which is in tipitaka Dhiigha Nikaaya DN 22 aanaapaanaa pabba. Please do not leave out any part from that 'anapana pabba'. I will see whether you are saying 'formal meditation or not'. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > many can do that with wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > I think this is referring that many bhikkhus read the whole tipitaka > > with wrong understanding. Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Moegoke > > Sayadaw, Shwe Kyin Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw and many other > bhikkhus > > read the whole tipitaka. > > > I am considering what you referred to 'many'. Sukinder: No, I did not have any specific persons in mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So generalised and all are inclusive? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who > follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath > or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is > this your position? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did say 'Idha bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato > vaa > > sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallanka.m aabhujitva ujum kaayam > > panidhaaya parimukhi sati.m upatthapetva. So satovo assa sati, > satova > > passa sati. Diigha.m vaa assa santo ''dhiigha.m assassaamii'ti > > pajaanaati, dhiigha.m vaa passa santo ...' > > The Buddha did say about 'breath'. > > > > My position is to straighten the curve. I am not showing any ego, I > > am not selling any ego. Sukinder: Can you translate and give your interpretation of the above? Please do include context and who according to you the audiences were. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have asked you above. As I have repeatedly did these before, this time it is your turn. Please post 'a part' of mahasatipatthana that is anapana pabba only to see whether you post 'formal meditation or not'. You already said, 'Tipitaka is no much'. So I am not asking you to post Tipitaka but just a part of anapana pabba of mahasatipatthana. After you do, I will post my own. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: If I do not appear for a while, it is because of conditions and I do not have any control. I may be away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > May you be free from suffering. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing Sukinder: I am quite behind in my reading and I just saw that many new posts have come in. I hope one of them is a reply by you to Ken H. which I am looking forward to. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have good memory like you. I forgot what i replied to Ken H. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45009 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:58am Subject: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Rob K discussion part 1. Dear Htoo, Thanks for you postive reponse. I go little by little and ask for you comment on every point in each post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Do not worry. As long as I have enough time, I will. This means when not enough time and not accessible then I will be away from discussion. This is not because I do not want to learn Dhamma and discuss Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: 1. Many Buddhist who join dsg cite modern teachers as evidence for this or that practice. Recently you mentioned Mahasi Sayadw, Pa Auk, and U Ba Khin and other teachers as evidence of those who teach some formal practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they open the centre and they formally teach how to meditate. I do not have any will to downgrade or upgrade anyone. I hope you clearly see what I have in my mind regarding these teachers and the word 'formal practice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I have to say I do not believe this is the right way - in these days- to approach Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know others' method. Mine is to investigate. What I am doing is investigating. Even now, I am investigating. That is I do have open mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not aware of that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: In fact now Pa Auks books have been banned in Burma as Mahasi method has become orthodox. The big controverises in the early days of mahsi are forgotton (not that I agree with Pa Auk).] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not aware of these. But when I first heard Mahasi method, I felt that it was a bit different from others. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding to a layteacher (who I was informed was U Ba Khin) and how he was very contoverial at that time (in the sixties) . But now it becomes orthodoxy in burma - and new students have no idea, they take it all on board. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with other way or other words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I never used to bother putting in teachers nmmes as I thought simply explain Dhamma and those who can see will understand. Now I think there is so much attachment to the modern teachers that it is necessary to bring these matters up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. For me, I do not attach any teachers. But from reading your sentences above, I remember someone (I forgot his or her name) who said 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' Shocking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: These moderns appeal because they alwasy have a short cut that involves much effort . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see is balanced teaching. Balanced practice. Especially at a centre. I did not find 'someone producing much effort'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala and akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point of whether akusala or kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Hard to see which is which. Still becuase anyone can make effort they are very popular. I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin. Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are 10 on the way, which will definitely hinder arising of nana. 1. glow 2. joy 3. calm 4. belief 5. effort 6. peace 7. penetrativity 8. mindfulness 9. balance 10.very subtle lobha I did find 'mindfulness'. I did find 'penetrativity'. I did find 'joy'. I did find 'calm'. I did find 'belief' and others. This is normal. And these are like milestones. Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Delusion - but taken as the right way. So wrong effort was producing wrong concentration and ..... We have to strive to become independent to become our own refuge in the Dhamma - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know who is who, :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: and that only comes by insight into what sati really is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't be hurried. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But we do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But if we attach to the teacher we will not be able to pass through. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked 'Htoo, do you attached to Buddha's teachings?' :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: We have to look at the modern teachers critically, do they conform with Dhamma. Or are there little flags up where they add something new. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do investigation. But I never go doubtful. When you re-read my post of 'Vipassana and Mahasatipatthana', you will see there what I do. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45010 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of enormous upset > there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the sacrificing of > clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad choice at all. > > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Christine, I agree with Howard. It is not the choice for clarity. As you know cittas cannot be controlled and they are not as we want them. So practically it is good to help with pain relief. If I am in pain when dying, I would choose to receive pain relief. Then I will pass away without much pain. Kamma racing and cittas that arise at that time cannot be controlled and we do not need to be afraid our old kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45011 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:23am Subject: Re: Accumulations buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Could you please describe or define precisely what "accumulations" means and how anusaya accumulation operates, according to the Abhidhamma? What are the paccayas for accumulation? The English meanings are 1. action or process of accumulating; being accumulated (e.g. Little things grow by continual accumulation). 2. that which is accumulated or has accumulated; mass; collection (e.g. accumulation of snow.) McMillan Dictionary, 1984. Now let take the snow accumulation as an example. Say, now I see snow accumulation on the ground after a few days of snowing. Where did it come from? It came from water vapors in the air precipitated by low air temperature at or near a saturation point. When the condition is right we'll see snow accumulations again. Snow accumulation is not permanent -- snow melts and vaporizes; new accumulations do not come from the same water vapor. Is this snow accumulation process similar to the accumulation of good or bad qualities you were talking about? I know that they are not at the same level, but it is useful to start from Accumulations 101. > N:Each citta that arises and falls away is succeeded by a following >citta and thus all accumulated good and bad inclinations, all >experiences in life are as it were carried on to the next citta. >That is why not only kamma, but also latent tendencies, >and good qualities are accumulated. Thank you so much for your time and effort to explain accumulations, cetasikas and cittas for me. Your convincing logical deduction, and beautiful and smooth writing style always delight me greatly. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, Hasituppada and all, > > A very important question about accumulations, it has a far reaching > influence on how we see the practice, I think. > First some general remarks. Each citta falls away together with the > accompanying cetasikas, they are impermanent. At the same time, we can notice that good and bad qualities are accumulated, so that similar ones arise again. Not the same ones. 45012 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: . > >> Rob K: > > You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce > from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending > themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: I am not aware of that. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. The same with Goenka's methods, what was once controversial is now taken as right. It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. But this path has been laid out by the Buddha, not by later teachers, we have to be so true to what is real, not assume any unusual experience is something deep. ==================== Rob K: > > Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding > to a layteacher > ------------------------------------------------- --------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with > other way or other words. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's just say the editor wasn't convinced the results were right. Again who is right here is not the main point, it is the uncritical attachment to the teachers or to strange experiences from concentrating that is the problem. ========== >> 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' > 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' > 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' > > Shocking? > --------------- Yes, not right attitude.. ====================------------------------------------------------- ------ > Rob K: > > These moderns appeal because they always have a short cut that > involves much effort . > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: What I see is balanced teaching. Balanced practice. Especially > at a centre. I did not find 'someone producing much effort'. ====== Ok I leave that point. ============ > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala > and > akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 > particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala > cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can > accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point of > whether akusala or kusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - Yes, so if we know this we should be VERY careful when trying to understand satipatthana which is the most profound path. > Rob K: > > I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana > center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the > town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone > said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl > asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was > staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her > father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so > on. All based on this glowing skin. > Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning > this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > There are 10 on the way, which will definitely hinder arising of nana. > > 1. glow > 2. joy > 3. calm > 4. belief > 5. effort > 6. peace > 7. penetrativity > 8. mindfulness > 9. balance > 10.very subtle lobha > > I did find 'mindfulness'. I did find 'penetrativity'. I did > find 'joy'. I did find 'calm'. I did find 'belief' and others. This > is normal. And these are like milestones. > > Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- But - at least in my case- not a milestone. Only the result of wrong concentration --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I > was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know who > is who, :-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ::)) ----------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > and that only comes by insight into what sati really > is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't > be hurried. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But we > do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but only in the right way. Not a blanket praise for anyone who sits down and tries to concentrate. ============== I'll try to write some more tommorow. RobertK 45013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding, Walking Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo, KenH, and Sukinder - I thought I did not have to explain why walking meditation was important, or explain about the object of walking meditation. But since KenH and other members have kept on ridiculing it , I have no choice but to respond. I might have been a little careless about what is the "object of satipatthana" and what is not. I have preferred the term "meditation object" for the sake of communication, e.g. leg movements during walking meditation are the object of meditation. But walking meditation is not exactly the same as the Buddha's Iriyapatha Pabba in Kayanupassana section of DN 22. Meditation teachers use walking meditation to keep the mind from wandering outside the body, to train for awareness, and to fight torpor after a long sitting meditation. If you try it, you too will know that it is quite useful as a meditation tool, not just strictly for realizing "the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta" as KenH stated. An excerpt below should give you a good reading on "walking meditation". "At our meditation retreats, yogis practice mindfulness in four different postures. They practice mindfulness when walking, when standing, when sitting, and when lying down. They must sustain mindfulness at all times in whatever position they are in. The primary posture for mindfulness meditation is sitting with legs crossed, but because the human body cannot tolerate this position for many hours without changing, we alternate periods of sitting meditation with periods of walking meditation. Since walking meditation is very important, I would like to discuss its nature, its significance, and the benefits derived from its practice. "Unfortunately, I have heard people criticize walking meditation, claiming that they cannot derive any benefits or good results from it. But it was the Buddha himself who first taught walking meditation. In the Great Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, the Buddha taught walking meditation two times. In the section called "Postures," he said that a monk knows "I am walking" when he is walking, knows "I am standing" when he is standing, knows "I am sitting" when he is sitting, and knows "I am lying down" when he is lying down. In another section called "Clear Comprehension," the Buddha said, "A monk applies clear comprehension in going forward and in going back." Clear comprehension means the correct understanding of what one observes. To correctly understand what is observed, a yogi must gain concentration, and in order to gain concentration, he must apply mindfulness. Therefore, when the Buddha said, "Monks, apply clear comprehension," we must understood that not only clear comprehension must be applied, but also mindfulness and concentration. Thus the Buddha was instructing meditators to apply mindfulness, concentration, and clear comprehension while walking, while "going forward and back." Walking meditation is thus an important part of this process". ... .... .... "As yogis carry on the practice, they will observe much more. When they lift their foot, they will experience the lightness of the foot. When they push the foot forward, they will notice the movement from one place to another. When they put the foot down, they will feel the heaviness of the foot, because the foot becomes heavier and heavier as it descends. When they put the foot on the ground, they will feel the touch of the heel of the foot on the ground. Therefore, along with observing lifting, moving forward, putting down, and pressing the ground, yogis will also perceive the lightness of the rising foot, the motion of the foot, the heaviness of the descending foot, and then the touching of the foot, which is the hardness or softness of the foot on the ground. When yogis perceive these processes, they are perceiving the four essential elements (in Pali, dhatu)." From: The Benefits of Walking Meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl137.html Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas > understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of > satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much > the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he > is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately > real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned > phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and > anatta. > > That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on > walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying > that learning to the present moment. > > Ken H > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Ken H, Tep, and all, > > 'Sonasingaala dayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti'. Dogs, foxes > know when they go. But such knowing is not satipatthana. > Satipatthaana explains well. > > It is The Buddha words that say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti > pajaanaati'. This is conventional talking. The practitioner will > sense with his own sense. > > Senses can only sense senses. Not concepts. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45014 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhistmedi... Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo - It was a very thoughtful and interesting question, Chris. Howard's observation is very true - without sedation the dying patient would suffer a great deal. When my third brother was in his last week before dying of colon cancer, the doctor gave him morphine 24 hours a day. Once or twice when the nurse came a little late to give another dose of morphine, he cried out very loud and twisted around -- it was a terrible sight and sound for everyone. There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the way to the rebirth moment. Did you hear similar stories about the Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo? Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: > Ideally, one > > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is > almost never the > > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an > advanced > > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For > the rest of > > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical > of lack of > > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A > mindstream > > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good > condition for an > > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of > enormous upset > > there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the > sacrificing of > > clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad > choice at all. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard, Christine, > > I agree with Howard. It is not the choice for clarity. As you know > cittas cannot be controlled and they are not as we want them. So > practically it is good to help with pain relief. If I am in pain when > dying, I would choose to receive pain relief. Then I will pass away > without much pain. Kamma racing and cittas that arise at that time > cannot be controlled and we do not need to be afraid our old kamma. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? nilovg Hi Christine, It all depends on kamma, and we never know. Kamma conditions the last moments and the rebirth. Even when being sedated, we do not have to worry, kamma can do anything. Understanding kamma helps us not to worry. A demented neighbour had a smile on her face when dying. Her husband was very impressed. Nina. op 01-05-2005 11:34 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: 'As you all know the state of mind at the moment of death is critical > in conditioning the next rebirth. 45016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Ken H and MN 62 buddhistmedi... Dear KenH- Please read my old message about Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitaka with Nina in a discussion not long ago: -------------------------------------------- Dear Nina - In the message # 40689, you wrote: > Understanding one's citta, that is Abhidhamma. People are inclined to think > of books when they hear the word Abhidhamma. > As to aiming at practising soon after the reading: let us combine reading, > considering, and verifying in life, this is already a beginning. If one sets > a time it seems like directing the citta. T: Thank you so much for preaching the Abhidhamma with the common sense of one who sees clearly. Because of you, the image of "Abhidhamma books" in my mind is now replaced bythe "Higher Dhamma" in the suttas. And the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka morphed into one meaningful whole -- the Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------- So you see that I have no problem understanding Nina's interpretation that the Abhidhamma and the suttas form an integral whole of the Tipitaka. Unfortunately, your understanding of what Nina and I understand is off-track. The following extracts from your message (# 44981) show your misunderstandings and a need for more education: KenH : Many DSG members consider the Abhidhamma-pitaka to be a late addition to the Pali Canon. They choose to practise samatha and vipassana in ways that can be reconciled with parts of the Sutta-pitaka provided those parts are read in isolation from the Abhidhamma- pitaka and the ancient commentaries... Tep: So you say Tep is one of these "many DSG members" who are ignorant because we do not consult the Abhidhamma-pitaka while we "practise samatha and vipassana". You are wrong, Ken. The sutta- pitaka is complete with respect to samatha-vipassana and eradication of asavas, tanha and avijja. For example, MN 2 (Sabbasava Sutta), MN 38(Maha-tanhasankhaya Sutta), MN 117(Mahacattarisaka Sutta), MN 118(Anapanasati Sutta), MN 119(Kayagatasati Sutta), MN 149 (Mahasalayatanika Sutta), SN XXII.59(Anattalakhana Sutta) cover everything for you to know and to do all the way to Nibbana. DN 22 gives a comprehensive practice of satipatthana; it is also complete. You don't need to lean on the Abhidhamma-pitaka which is very difficult to understand. I have read it and that's how I feel. KenH: The commentaries (e.g., to the Satipatthana Sutta) indicate that your form of Buddhist meditation is not found in the Pali Canon. ... ... I think Htoo insists that his (your) meditation techniques are the genuine teaching of the Buddha but, because Ananda did not recount them, they were never included in the Pali Canon. Tep: I have no clear idea what you were talking about, Ken. Be more specific -- give me the proof. BTW. Tell me: is the set of suttas given above not "included in the Pali Canon"? I've gradually practiced using most of the suttas in this set (see above) plus DN 22. My walking meditation is based on the Visuddhimagga and DN 22. I have also tried the walking meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda ( ithe reference is provided in another post I wrote to you and Htoo earlier this afternoon). I even studied Goenka's method of Vedana Contemplation to expand my experience. A practitioner cannot be lazy, Ken. He tries several methods and learns a lot from experience. He does not daydream or points his finger to find fault with other people. Doing that is not acceptable by any true Buddhist. -------------------------------------- T: > So why don't you (please kindly) tell me about how >the "practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient >commentaries" is different from "the practice described by >Hasituppada and Tep"? -------------------------------------- KenH: The conditioned dhammas (eye-consciousness, ear- consciousness, visible object, audible object, etc., etc.) described by the Buddha are not the same as our concepts of seeing, hearing, sights and sounds etc. We have to understand that. When we have understood it, we can go on to learn about those conditioned dhammas in detail. Learning leads to intellectual understanding, which leads to direct understanding, which leads to penetrative knowledge of the four noble truths and release from samsara. Tep: So why did the Lord Buddha recommend breathing meditation to his own son, Rahula [see MN 62]? Even the Great Arahant Sariputta recommended Anapanasati to Rahula! Why? "Venerable Sariputta saw venerable Rahula seated cross, legged at the root of a certain tree, the body straight and mindfulness established in front of him. He said,`Rahula, develop in breathing and out breathing. When, in- and out breathing is developed and made much, it brings good results and benefits'. ..." MN 62 Maha-rahulovada Sutta. And why did the Great Sage tell Rahula to practice Kayagatasati Kammatthana, using the 32 parts of the body -- all of them are concepts? "Rahula, all that's in this body.That are hard and rough and thought are yours.Such as hair of the head and body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, veins, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, small intestines, stomach and excreta, or anything else that is internal, your own, hard and rough is called internal earth element. This internal earth element and the external earth element, all that goes as the earth element." MN 62 Maha-rahulovada Sutta. KenH: The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying that learning to the present moment. Tep: The walking (one of the 4 body postures) is a "body in the body" and it is a legitimate object of kayanupassana. Also read the Visuddhimagga page 664. XX, 62. I already gave a reply to you in the other post today. I also provided a link to a Walking Meditation paper to educate you a little! Indeed, you probably need a lot more education about the Buddhasasana. Respectfully & sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > ----------------------- > KenH : > > > > The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > > > ............ > T: > Oh, I did not know that! > ------------------------- > > Sorry, Tep, I genuinely thought that you did. Many DSG members > consider the Abhidhamma-pitaka to be a late addition to the Pali > Canon. They choose to practise samatha and vipassana in ways that can be reconciled with parts of the Sutta-pitaka provided those > parts are read in isolation from the Abhidhamma-pitaka and the > ancient commentaries (as well as from certain other parts of the > Sutta-pitaka). > > 45017 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Chris and Htoo) - In a message dated 5/1/05 2:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to > take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we > should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in > > good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last > > minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the > way to the rebirth moment. ==================== It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain such a level! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45018 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================= > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Hi Howard (and All), Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. Your post is very intriguing to me (as well as Christine's question). I did some research into the Tibetian Book of the Dead for some possible answers to this issue. I was interesting to see that, according to Tibetian Buddhism, you are correct in stating that calm is the most important factor for a favorable rebirth. It seems that when a person dies he/she is confronted with the karma of his/her lifetime, very much like remembering a dream upon waking. This review of the "Ordinary Life Bardo" can have actual images from the lifetime or it can be symbolic, but the predominately positive or negative energy of the karma confronts the consciousness of the dying person and results in either a reaction of calm or fear/agitation/confusion of the consciousness. The calm response results in rebirth in the higher realms and the fearful response results in rebirth in the lower realms. Unfortunately, this process is so automatic that the consciousness doesn't have much opportunity to *will* a calm response in the face of negative karma. Therefore, living a stain-free life is the most guaranteed way for a favorable rebirth, as the Buddha taught. Of course the Buddha didn't teach anything about this subject, but it stands to reason that he wouldn't care to. He taught only suffering and the path leading to the cessation of suffering, he didn't teach the details of death and how to have a favorable rebirth. However, that isn't to say the Tibetians are wrong about this matter. Just something to consider. Metta, James http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/dead/index2.html 45019 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, KEN > 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' They are mental phenomena and physical phenomena (in Pali: namas and rupas). There are three kinds of nama. They are consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasikas) and Nibbana. There are twenty-eight kinds of rupa, which include all the objects of sense consciousness and the physical bases of contact. There are six types of citta. They are the five sense consciousnesses and mind consciousness. And there are fifty-two types of 'cetasika.' They are sanna (perception), vedana (feeling), cetana (volition), phassa (contact), lobha (attachment), alobha (non-attachment), . . . . and so on. ..................................................................................... In the first paragraph, what do you mean by "the physical bases of contact"? do you mean the sense organs? What are the twenty-eight kinds of rupa? So, what are non absolute realties, and what is not real? *********************************************************** Ken> At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. .......................................................................... How is knowing one of the namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment, a way to lose attachment and infatuation for it? ***************************** KEN > The first four are cetasikas {saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa}, and the fifth (anatta, soullessness) is one the inherent characteristics of cetasikas. (It is also an inherent characteristic of cittas, rupas and Nibbana.) .................................................................. I can see that I am getting old, it is too easy for me to get lost in trying to remember all the definitions so that I could understand what is being said. ************************************************* Ken> An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every-day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. .............................................................................................. It is interesting, after reading this post I am starting to realize that the Abidharma focuses on trying to the reader a view (i.e., wisdom) of the world, and from this view, the rest should fall into place. For this view to work, morality and concentration would have to be inherent to the wisdom, or they would have to be preconditions/prerequisites. *********************************************************** KEN> As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. ..................................................... I hope you realize that this is just one of the paths to enlightenment? ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau <....> Hi Charles, I was saying: ----------------------------- > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ------------------------------ To which you replied: ----------------------------------------------- > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. -------------------------- 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' <....> 45020 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. dacostacharles Very interesting, the previous post. I especially like: "'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'." I guess that is also why we need to be carefull when judging if another is on the right track. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 28 April, 2005 18:38 Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'. As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano naatho'. Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create arahatta magga nana for others. The problem is the word 'understanding'. Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. Htoo Naing 45021 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. And by the way, I should emphases that not every Buddhist believes this. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: mnease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 16 April, 2005 20:13 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi Tep and Sarah, Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your very civil and well-researched messages and citations. I also think the latter are perfectly to the point. Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. mike 45022 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Like and colours (was Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realites) philofillet Hi Larry > I'd like to take the liberty of starting a thread about what you > raise below. (The other topic seems much more general) It's one of > the things I've been wondering about - the intrinsic pleasantness of > visible objects etc. This will give me a chance to understand it a > little better. Thanks. I just re-read the previous post and found that it contained about 20 questions, all of them spawned by your one short comment, which was obviously very interesting to me. Feel free to choose one or two that are of interest to you and we can start from there. Metta, Phil 45023 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. And by the way, I should emphases that not every Buddhist believes this. > > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mnease Can you cite from the > discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that > he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If > so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. > mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Charles D and Mike, I haven't been following this thread but the Buddha did teach laypeople to practice the jhanas: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. James: I don't wish to get into an extended debate on this matter, but I thought I would offer the sutta quotation since it was requested. Metta, James 45024 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Like and colours lbidd2 Hi Phil, I'm venturing into uncharted territory here, but it isn't new territory and I don't think my *tentative* conclusions are inconsistent with abhidhamma. It seems to me that conventional reality isn't so much concept as inferred or assumed reality. I am taking conventional reality to be multiple layers of compact wholes. By 'compact whole' I mean a combination of ultimate realities. Because this is a group of ultimate realities we could say it is dependently arisen and performs functions. But, on the other hand, it isn't a direct object of consciousness. It is only an inferred object of consciousness because only one ultimate reality at a time can be an object of consciousness. So this group partakes of characteristics of both concept and reality. The classic example is a person or a chariot. A person isn't a word or symbol, so, strictly speaking, a person isn't a concept. A person isn't a direct object of consciousness either, so a person isn't a reality. We could say a person is empty of ultimate reality but, in a way, dependently arisen. I am saying a person is conventional reality. Here's one way to see this: look at a face. Get a sense of it as a whole. Then look at the eyes; then look at the mouth. Back and forth between eyes and mouth. Get a sense of these as individual elements. Then look at the face again as a whole. Here you might be able to see the emptiness of the face. Notice that we are not rejecting the whole (conventional reality). Without the whole there isn't any emptiness. Rather, we are investigating the ultimate nature of conventional reality. Now, back to the original question: Why do you, Phil, think you don't understand blue? I said I don't understand blue because I like it. This was based on the reasoning that if I properly understood blue I wouldn't like it. I don't know if this is 100% valid, but it's what I came up with. You probably have a different view. What is it? The reason I asked this question is because I don't think the problem is with not understanding ultimate realities. I think the problem is with not understanding the ultimate nature of conventional reality. Everyone understands blue. Blue is blue. That's all there is to it. But usually we add something, "blue is nice". This adding up of ultimate realities is how we create conventional reality. This is what needs to be investigated. Below is a note from Visuddhimagga on 'compact wholes'. Larry ---------------------- Vism.XXI,n.3. Cf. Pe. 128. In the commentary to the Aayatana-Vibha.nga we find: 'Impermanence is obvious, as when a saucer (say) falls and breaks; ... pain is obvious, as when a boil (say) appears in the body; ... the characteristic of not-self is not obvious; ... Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise the characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known, but unless there is the arising of a Buddha the characteristic of not-self is not made known' (VbhA. 49-50, abridged for clarity). Again, in the commentary to Majjhima Nikaaya Sutta 22: 'Having been, it is not, therefore it is impermanent; it is impermanent for four reasons, that is, in the sense of the state of rise and fall, of change, of temporariness, and of denying permanence. It is painful on account of the mode of oppression; it is painful for four reasons, that is, in the sense of burning, of being hard to bear, of being the basis for pain, and of opposing pleasure ... It is not-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power; it is not-self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no Overlord, and of opposing self' (MA.ii113, abridged for clarity). Commenting on this Vis. paragraph [not given here, Larry], Pm. says: ' "When continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the characteristic becomes more thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were iron darts. "When the postures are exposed" means when the concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is exposed. For when pain arises in a posture, the next posture adopted removes the pain, as it were, concealing it. But once it is correctly known how the pain in any posture is shifted by substituting another posture for that one, then the concealment of the pain that is in them is exposed because it has become evident that formations are being incessantly overwhelmed by pain. "Resolution of the compact" is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, "The earth element is one, the water element is another" etc., distinguishing each one; and in this way, "Contact is one, feeling is another" etc., distinguishing each one. "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm.824). 45025 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. lbidd2 Nina: "the Buddha says: Bhikkhus, do not be neglectful. Be aware. His words can be a condition to be aware at this moment." Hi Nina, Excellent. I like this example of prompted insight. Not control, but a 'possible' condition. Larry 45026 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 156, and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for all this detail. It gives me a glimpse of how rich experience is. Larry 45027 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/1/05 7:05:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard (and All), > > Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. ==================== Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic but wonderful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45028 From: "mnease" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Charles, Nice to hear from you-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating > absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. Agreed on both counts, Charles--and when the conditions are (or were) present I think this is (or was) the ideal situation. A cursory search of 'pabbajjaa' will bear this out, I think. > And by the way, I should emphases that not > every Buddhist believes this. No indeed, the suttas tell of many laypeople attaining the various paths and some Buddhists acknowledge this. Whether either or both of these ways are available today is a matter of opinion to be sure. What is clear from all the texts, I think, is that with or without jhaana or ordination, insight into present dhammas is the key. mike 45029 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - > Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain such a level! > Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?) no matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense. You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at the Triplegem Website). Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Chris and Htoo) - > > In a message dated 5/1/05 2:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to > > take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we > > should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in > > > > good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last > > > > minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the > > way to the rebirth moment. > ==================== > It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail > through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the > fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain > such a level! > > With metta, > Howard > 45030 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results foamflowers Aïguttara Nikàya 005. Mahàyaavaggo -The great sacrifices 1. Sattaviànaññhitisuttaü-The seven stations for consciousness. 10. Nandamàtàsuttaü- The female lay disciple Nanda. I found several different translations of this sutta online. Some lay disciples were skilled in even the highest reaches of meditation. Here, Uttara Nandamata, the foremost female devotee in jhana practice, explains to Venerable Sariputta how she knew in advance of the Sangha's arrival. A passing deity, as a stream-enterer Nandamata's brother in the Dhamma, stopped to hear her chanting. `Having arisen in the night before dawn, Bhante, and chanted the "Way to the Beyond"[16], "I was silent. Then Great King Vessavana, realizing that I had finished reciting, congratulated me: "Sadhu, sister! Sadhu, sister!" ` "But who is this of majestic countenance?" ` "I, sister, am your brother, Great King Vessavana. ` "Sadhu, Your Majesty! May this passage of Dhamma which I have chanted be my gift to you." ` "Sadhu, sister! Then let this be a gift for me: tomorrow the Sangha of monks headed by Sariputta and Moggallana will arrive here at Velukantaka without having eaten. Having fed the Sangha of monks may you dedicate the offering to me, then that will be a gift for me." `So let the merit of this offering be for the happiness of Great King Vessavana.' `It is wonderful, Nandamata, it is marvelous that you should converse face to face with Great King Vessavana, a deity of such great psychic power and potency!' `This is not my only wonderful and marvelous quality, Bhante.... When rulers for some reason took my dear beloved son by force and killed him.... I know of no change in my mind.... `When my husband, who had passed away and re-arisen in a spirit world, revealed himself to me in his old form, I know of no change in my mind on that account.... `Since I was a maiden brought to my youthful husband, I know of no transgression against him in thought, how then in body?... `Since I declared myself a lay devotee, I know of no deliberate violation of any training rule.... `As far as I wish, I enter and abide in the first jhana ... second jhana ... third jhana ... fourth jhana... `I do not see any of the five lower fetters taught by the Blessed One un-abandoned in me....' 'Wonderful, Nandamata! Marvelous, Nandamata!' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, when I desire, secluding my mind from sensual desires and demeritorious things, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I abide in the first higher state of mind. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, the mind in one point, internally appeased with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I abide in the second higher state of mind. With equanimity to joy and disenchantment, I experience pleasantness and mindful awareness with the body and attain to the third higher state of mind, to this the noble ones say, mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, cleaning the mind so that it is without unpleasantness and pleasàntness I attain to the fourth higher state of mind" ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I do not see a single of these bonds binding to the sensual world in me, according to the way declared by The Blessed One.". ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." Then venerable Sariputta advising, inciting and making the heart light of the female lay disciple Nanda with a talk got up and went away With Metta, Lisa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > Nice to hear from you-- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles DaCosta" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > > >>Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you >>have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight >>to reach enlightenment. > >Agreed on both counts, Charles--and when the conditions are (or >were) present I think this is (or was) the ideal situation. A >cursory search of pabbajjaa' will bear this out, I think. > >> And by the way, I should emphases that not >> every Buddhist believes this. > >No indeed, the suttas tell of many laypeople attaining the various >paths and some Buddhists acknowledge this. Whether either or both of >these ways are available today is a matter of opinion to be sure. >What is clear from all the texts, I think, is that with or without >jhaana or ordination, insight into present dhammas is the key. > > mike 45031 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and Nina - > Ph: And it's not as passive as it might sound. "Conditions can be > cultivated" is something I have learned. A moment of shame of > akusala, for example, will condition another one, though we don't > know when it will arise. We can be confident that we are making > progress moment by moment as long as we don't cling to results. --------- N: That is it. Therefore I tried to explain to Tep about accumulations. It gives us more confidence in accumulating kusala and understanding, even if it is a little at a time. No passivity, we remember the Buddha's words: do not be neglectful. --------- T: I am for the cultivation of "conditions" too, Phil. But, is it possible that the next moment of shame of another (similar) akusala may be conditioned by "trained" perception (sanna) of the hiri cetasika? It is more or less like the reinforcement technique used by any training school, I guess. T: Nina, is it true that the accumulation process of "kusala and understanding" may be similar to training the perception of the two good cetasikas to replace the perception of akusala and wrong view? I am not convinced by the perpetual accumulation process. The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as Adhicitta-sikkha means. "Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. "Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. "Then, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases". [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > op 01-05-2005 11:50 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: 45032 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:29am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Even though we are only starting to develop the Path events in our life can remind us to be aware now, just as they reminded the Buddha’s disciples. At times we may have doubts about the benefit of sati, or it may happen that we are absorbed by our work or our circle of friends, or we may be infatuated by all the pleasant things of life, without mindfulness of such moments. Although we know in theory that any reality can be object of mindfulness, there may be a long period of sluggishness in our life. However, a painful event such as the loss of someone who is dear to us may remind us of the true nature of reality; this can become our “goad” which stirs us. If we truly see that even one moment of right understanding is beneficial we will have courage to continue with the development of satipaììhåna and then there is right effort which arises because of its own conditions. We can come to understand that life without the development of right understanding is utterly meaningless. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45033 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: >In my case my mother died > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > mind effect their rebirth?' .... S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other javana cittas in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply have no idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is any reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any bearing in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is again the result of kamma. The commentaries give a lot of detail on this. Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and would like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that last time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better and home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know she was quite elderly and had had health problems for some time. Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can add any more. ***** "Ko nu haaso kimaanando nicca"m pajjalite sati Andhakaarena onaddhaa padiipa"m na gavessatha" "What is laguhter, what is joy, when the world is ever burning? Shrouded by darkness, would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl) ***** Metta, Sarah (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P. under 'Death') ============================= 45034 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? christine_fo... Dear Sarah, Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent. My own mother is perfectly healthy though quite elderly and a little frail now - growing concerned about her failing sight and hearing. I saw her at SarahF's birthday luncheon last Saturday, where she was happy and enjoying herself. BTW, SarahF said to wish Jon a happy birthday - they share the same day, I think. Thank you for the dhamma reminder - death is so close but we do not see it - if, after an outbreath, there is no inbreath ... metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > >In my case my mother died > > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she > > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was > > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies > > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > > mind effect their rebirth?' > .... > S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine > rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other javana cittas > in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about > another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply have no > idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is any > reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any bearing > in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is again the > result of kamma. > > The commentaries give a lot of detail on this. > > Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and would > like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that last > time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better and > home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know she was > quite elderly and had had health problems for some time. > > Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma > reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can add any > more. > ***** > "Ko nu haaso kimaanando > nicca"m pajjalite sati > Andhakaarena onaddhaa > padiipa"m na gavessatha" > > "What is laguhter, what is joy, > when the world is ever burning? > Shrouded by darkness, > would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl) > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P. under 'Death') > ============================= 45035 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: Like and colours philofillet Hi Larry > I'm venturing into uncharted territory here, but it isn't new territory > and I don't think my *tentative* conclusions are inconsistent with > abhidhamma. It seems to me that conventional reality isn't so much > concept as inferred or assumed reality. I am taking conventional reality > to be multiple layers of compact wholes. Ph: Thanks for this and the following explanation. A little too complex for me, to tell the truth. But I think it is helping you to better understand the difference between concepts and realities, so that's good. > Now, back to the original question: Why do you, Phil, think you don't > understand blue? I said I don't understand blue because I like it. This > was based on the reasoning that if I properly understood blue I wouldn't > like it. I don't know if this is 100% valid, but it's what I came up > with. You probably have a different view. What is it? I think what you say could be true. If we understand a reality, it means there is bare cognition, just seeing, and we stop at seeing. there is no proliferation. Of course at our level of insight, that is unlikely to happen. Ah, but even with bare congnition, there is feeling. That's a universal with all cittas. But feeling associated with seeing-consciousness is neutral so what you've written above could still be true, I guess. I get confused because I have learned that visible objects are classified as pleasant or unpleasant, that there is something intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them. Is that simply because they are kussala or akusala vipaka, the result of kusala or akusala kamma, so we must say there is something intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them? I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand for me. On the other hand, we know that visible objects do not give rise to pleasant or unpleasant feeling - feeling arising from eye door objects is always neutral. So this is all confusing for me...Before I took seeing for granted. Now I know how subtle it is. Grateful to the Buddha who came to understand it fully and grateful to my Dhamma friends who are helping to make his teaching on this difficult point a little bit clearer, gradually. Thanks for the Vism passage, and for taking the time to send such a thorough post. I admire the way you (and Howard) really dig hard into experience to make sense out of it. It must be a kind of investigation of dhammas, one of the factors of enlightenment. Unless of course it's just self at work, seeking a subtle form of satisfaction. I'm sure it is sometimes one, sometimes the other. We all have to deal with that in so many ways in our Dhamma study.... Metta, Phil 45036 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The > post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his > own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent. ... S: My mistake - thanks for clarifying. Jon was reading the posts out to me and I was surprised, so when I quickly replied, I didn't see the quote marks. Interested to read all the other comments too. S. 45037 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi Tep > T: I am for the cultivation of "conditions" too, Phil. But, is it possible that > the next moment of shame of another (similar) akusala may be > conditioned by "trained" perception (sanna) of the hiri cetasika? It is > more or less like the reinforcement technique used by any training > school, I guess. "Conditions", of course, refers to paccayadhamma (conditioning states) and paccayuppannadhamma (conditioned states) which are linked together in a very precise way. I throw around the word "conditions" quite loosely because I don't yet understand their working well enough to be more specific - but I am studying, and reflecting on conditions in daily life. I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition (pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough investigation of this all important condition! As for sanna, I have learned that it is a universal cetasika that arises with every citta, and that we misunderstand it if we think of it as perception in the conventional sense. It has a function to assist citta in marking objects, but it comes and goes so quickly that I don't know how we can use it for training kusala. You may have a different approach, and that's fine. Who knows - we both may be right! The Buddha's wisdom is so ineffably deep that it may allow for more than one Right Way. Metta, Phil 45038 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) gazita2002 Hello Phil, and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Nina > > > > Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, > > > we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the > > > world of ultimate realites should not be confused in a discussion, > > > and one should keep their distinction in mind. ....snip..... Phil: BTW, do you remember last year I posted about a moment in which I > was able to see Naomi as paramattha dhammas, but not myself. You and > Lodewijk agreed that you would find it easier to see oneself as nama > and rupa than to see the loved one in those terms - that is much > harder. Well, a year later, now I find that I feel the same way as you > two. It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > easier to understand myself in those terms. I don't know if that is > because of more attachement to Naomi, or better understanding of > myself. A bit of both, I guess. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: Recently, I was sitting in a crowded place and it was also very noisy. I began to think about seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes and it occurred to me, that when thinking about 'me' as nama and rupa was a whole lot easier than thinking about 'all those others' as nama and rupa. I could somehow relate it more to 'my experience of..' rather than accepting that all the others 'out there' were just arising and falling away. They all seemed more 'solid' than me. Of course, its just a whole lot of thinking going on, but it was an interesting exercise. Its great the way, in the most unexpected situations, some thought of dhamma will arise. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 45039 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply sukinderpal Hi Tep, (Htoo*) ============================= Tep: Now, let me make up two lists of items in your message # 44929; the first one consists of your agreeable remarks, and the second list is for the disageeable remarks. Then my response follows. Sukinder's Agreeable Remarks (I) ----------------------------------- 1. Even the understanding of dana and sila is enhanced by pariyatti, thus conditioning more instances of it. All kusala are helpful and should be encouraged. 2. Even to appreciate these [sila, dana or bhavana] theoretically requires panna, how much more so in practice? Tep's Comments on (I): ------------------------- I am sure that we are in agreement with respect to the virues of sila, dana and any kusala dhamma, but I am not sure if our understandings of bhavana are the same. To me bhavana consists of samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Panna (understanding) knows, while sila and samadhi support panna all the way from the puthujjana level until the lokuttara level. We need panna to guide all activities (talking, writing, etc.) even for babies, and there are several levels of panna. For example, a criminal uses his panna to steal, rob, cheat, and kill others (for money). But we don't want that panna, do we? =Sukinder: Why would you call this panna? Even Einstein's coming upon the Theory of Relativity and formulating e=mc2 does not involve panna. I think panna is specific in knowing at least in theory, the law of kamma, the nature of nama and rupa. And through experience the undesirability of akusala and the good in kusala and the need to develop this. In other words, panna must be accompanied by sati, saddha and many other wholesome cetasikas. So in fact, is our understanding of kusala/ akusala the same? ============================= More Tep's Comments on (I): We have to develop panna by adhipanna sikkha. What we want is the higher understanding that is supported by sila, samadhi, viriya, and full awareness-- not intellectual understanding from reading and thinking only. The taste of panna is in the pudding too. =Sukinder: So given that your understanding of panna in the above is not exactly what it is, and that in fact a moment of panna, even at the level of pariyatti, must be kusala, do you still think about this need for sila, samadhi and viriya to be developed in order to support panna? Of course 'reading and thinking only' can be without panna. But I refer to 'understanding' and not the ability to retain what is read and to recall. Also any reasoning using such knowledge does not necessarily mean that panna is involved. It is not the words, but the understanding that, all this refers to conditioned dhammas arising and fallen away in the present moment. And that some lead to good results and some to bad. This also implying then, that there is also an understanding of comnditionality. ============================= More Tep's Comments on (I): Do you remember the following quote from the Visuddhimagga? 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a Bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. VisM I, 7. =Sukinder: I have never read the Vis. Beyond what is quote here, but I do remember another quote which goes to the effect: "There is Suffering, but no person who suffers. There is a Path, but none who walks it". ============================ More Tep's Comments on (I): Please study the following quote. 'Here training of higher virtue is known by virtue; the training of higher consciousness by concentration (samadhi); and the training of higher understanding by understanding.' VisM I,10. Adhisila sikkha = training of higher virtue. Adhicitta sikkha = training of higher consciousness. Adhipanna sikkha = training of higher understanding. =Sukinder: Every moment of satipatthana involves the development of sila, samadhi and panna. Five or six factors during mundane moments, and all eight, during the supra mundane. Why introduce anything extra? Why must you see them separately? Is it because you identify something you "do" with the idea that one or more of these is being developed? ========================== Sukinder's Debatable Points (II) --------------------------------- 1. Only those cittas that are associated with panna are said to be ever doing the job of slowly moving us away from conditioned realities, towards nibbana. 2. The idea of "doing" and that these must be developed in certain order, is what makes it hard or impossible for any panna to arise to know them as they are. 3. So even though I do not talk about this, it is nevertheless implied in that these [sila, dana or bhavana] are stages which are needed to go through, but not in anyone's control as to when or if they will occur. 4. For you it seems more like something within control and to be done. And of course, you seem to separate sila, Samadhi and panna, thinking that they can and ought to be developed each on their own. To me this is just an abstraction and does not seem to reflect the true nature of reality. 5. However detachment can happen on a momentary level and does reflect in the general outlook of many members here. They know for example that pariyatti is not enough and that this will not lead to the goal without much, much patipatti. 6. Every moment of kusala accumulates and conditions more of the kind. So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna. But like I said above, can we even begin to appreciate sila for example, without any understanding? Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Which level of panna? What trainings (sikkha) are necessary to "move" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana"? =Sukinder: Satipatthana => Vipassana => Magga. ===================== More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 2. But "doing"the right things, in this case the 3 kinds of "training" (sikkha), is the only way to produce a result that "moves" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana" as obvious from the Visuddhimagga quotes above. Are the trainings for visuddhi sila, visuddhi citta, and visuddhi panna not "doing" something and doing it the right way (the Eightfold Path)? =Sukinder: Some would interpret this as saying that there is some action a 'self' has to take. However the Dhamma is about dhammas. These simply perform their function, some towards liberation and some to being more entangled in Samsara. One such example of the latter is wrong view, the idea that dhammas can and should be controlled. ;-) ======================= More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 3. I don't think that 'I' have be 'the one' who 'controls' the Path factors to arise. So we are in agreement here. But the doing nothing because of the fear of 'lobha' and the fear of "self", thinking that they may spring at you, is a wrong view. =Sukinder: There is always a dhamma performing its own function. So what you refer to as 'doing nothing' involves some such dhammas. The right pariyatti would point the need to understand all dhammas arising through all the doorways, and is not just a philosophy to live by. So what you say above as in having a preconceived idea about meditation and acting upon it, is not what I would encourage anyone to do. But have you considered that this might instead involve a level of understanding in the present moment? At least it was for me when I first dropped the idea of meditation. There was some recognition of 'self' in the form of lobha and ditthi at work. And since then I have seen it, though rarely, come and go in other forms in relation to other activities too. ====================== More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 4. For me there is work remains to be done with right effort and right mindfulness, both being guided by right view. =Sukinder: Yes, right effort, right mindfulness and right view, so why factor your `self' into this? I think you should trust dhammas to perform their functions and take self out of the equation. ;-) Tep continues with 4. And of course, I believe in having sila sikkha and citta sikkha to support understanding, thinking that they can be earnestly developed. The idea that sila and samadhi "ought to be developed each on their own" never occurs to me, and it is never on my mind. =Sukinder: But perhaps because up until now you view panna as dry and unsupported by many of the wholesome cetasikas, you have automatically implied a separate practice to support this panna, no? ========================= More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 5. I know that you mean Tep is one of "them". So please show us how "detachment can happen on a momentary level" and "that pariyatti is enough and that this will lead to the goal without much, much patipatti". I would love to do it "the easy way", Sukinder! Only extremely ignorant people would want to do anything the hardest way -- if they knew a much easier way existed. =Sukinder: Maybe writing summaries is not always good ;-). I said the goal *cannot* be reached without much, much patipatti. There is no hard and easy way, but only *one way* and this is not easy even for the best set of accumulations. As to the question of detachment, any moment of right understanding, there is also alobha. But more importantly, in "knowing" one has taken a step away from "not knowing", and this knowledge ever so slightly reduces avijja. This latter being the first link of D.O. More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 6. Does the process of kusala accumulation operate like a perpetual- motion machine? By saying, "So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna", you are talkng like you can go back to your armchair and relax, doing nothing, once you have set your "kusala" running. By the way, since when did you start to accept samatha ? =Sukinder: If the moment is not one of the 10 wholesome courses of action, then it must be akusala. So no, it doesn't work that way that one might decide to relax after doing some good, such a thought is the worst of the lot, namely, wrong view. Every level of kusala should be encouraged, and all such moment could be said to be samatha. But I think you mean to ask my view about samatha development? Sure, I believe in it. However, I don't think the popular view about what it is and how it is developed is correct. It is this that I speak against. =================================== *Htoo: I am going to be occupied with something the next few days. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to respond to your post. So please be patient. Metta, Sukinder 45040 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) philofillet Hi Azita, and all It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > > easier to understand myself in those terms. I don't know if that is > > because of more attachement to Naomi, or better understanding of > > myself. A bit of both, I guess. > Azita: Recently, I was sitting in a crowded place and it was also > very noisy. I began to think about seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes > and it occurred to me, that when thinking about 'me' as nama and rupa > was a whole lot easier than thinking about 'all those others' as nama > and rupa. I could somehow relate it more to 'my experience of..' > rather than accepting that all the others 'out there' were just > arising and falling away. They all seemed more 'solid' than me. > Of course, its just a whole lot of thinking going on, but it was > an interesting exercise. Its great the way, in the most unexpected > situations, some thought of dhamma will arise. Ph: It makees life ever so interesting, doeesn' it. As one friend put it, any moment can become so instructive, so perfect. As long as we don't try to have it that way, of course. Re other people, I remember last year seeing a rush of people heading to the station and seeing them in a momentary and helpful way as moved along by nama and rupa. And then that feeling was gone, and they were people again. But I think these moments really stick with us (accumulate, I guess) in a lasting way. It hasn't happened since then, it seems to me the insight is developing more toward myself, but who knows, just thinking as you say. BTW, Azita, as I was tidying up I was listening to the India talks. You were asking about the rupa of motion, for some tips about how to recognize it. Of course, none were forthcoming! I think they could have been. If someone has had a moment of direct understanding of a rupa or nama, couldn't they tell us about it? "I was walking down the street and a leaf landed on my nose and I had a direct understanding of motion" or something like that. If they were a trusted dhamma friend, that could condition awareness of such moments when they arose, even if we weren't clinging to expecting them. Is it verbotten or impossible to talk about one's moments of direct understanding? Would that mean there was clinging to the experience? If it helped condition a friend's moment of awareness, wouldn't the clinging to the experience be worth it? Yes, there would be mana, but there's always mana. Is it impossible to identify moments of direct understanding so explicitly? Well, that's an interesting question that just popped out. Also BTW and this *is* verbotten but may I say Azita that I think you have a very lovely voice? Something beguiling about it, a kind of good-humoured sheepishness. It is causing me lobha. Lovha? Could I ask you to speak in a less pleasant way in future recorded talks, like ....Sarah for example? Sarah, just joking!!!! There are so many lovely women's voices in these talks....sigh... Metta, Phil p.s We're off for a few days to Naomi's hometown. I won't be able to respond to threads for a few days. 45041 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among Buddhists worldwide. I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of samatha. This is not to say that there are not people today who have the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to promote it to all. The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus on an object - including breath - it is normally done with attachment. But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with detachment. Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the difficulty, not making it seem easy. Also vipassana, so profound. In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right conditions, not by trying to force them up. I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the world is not how it seems at all. I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we want it too. And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on the minor conditons we miss the main. Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship after that and think that mighht help. Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the foundation. If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it hard to come back and resight. So meditation centers etc have their good points, people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- and that is not right. Robertk 45042 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/2/05 12:02:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Dear Howard - > > > >Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently > to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have > the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive > accumulations to attain such a level! > > > > Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?) -------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) -------------------------------- no > > matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense. > > You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my > memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you > on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at > the Triplegem Website). > --------------------------------- Howard: Once - only once - I "stumbled" into the 2nd jhana and apparently then shuttled back and forth between it and the 5th jhana, but this was just for a few minutes and it lacked the stability (or "lock-in") sufficient for calling it an *attaining* of jhana; it was merely sufficient for me to see the reality of the jhanas, the genuine possibility of attaining them, and how glorious they are. Since then the "best" that I've done in terms of meditative stability seems to be attaining access concentration and momentary concentration. I do think the jhanas are very important and are well worth putting forward regular effort. Despite the the incredible bliss they provide, fortunately I have somehow avoided a craving for them or a clinging to them. ---------------------------------------- > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations nilovg Dear Tep, op 01-05-2005 17:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Could you please describe or define precisely what "accumulations" > means and how anusaya accumulation operates, according to the > Abhidhamma? What are the paccayas for accumulation? --------------- N: At this moment you are seeing, actually, seeing sees visible object. Even before knowing what it is, there may be javana cittas with attachment to visible object now. That attachment falls away, but it is accumulated, although we do not realize this at all. It is accumulated as the latent tendency of sense desire. Then you think of the visible object, define it, have more liking for it. Again, attachment is accumulated. Why did attachment arise? because there is the latent tendency of sense desire and a suitable object appeared. The latent tendency conditions the arising of attachment with the akusala citta. Attachment clings to the object, falls away, and then more attachment is added to the latent tendency of sense desire. Thus, it goes on and on. The latent tendency of sense desire conditions the arising of akusala citta with attachment by way of natural strong dependance-condition. There are three levels of defielements: subtle defilements which are the latent tendencies, medium defilements which are the akusala cittas that arise, and strong defilements which are the transgressions through body, speech and mind. -------------- T: The English meanings are 1. action or process of accumulating; being > accumulated (e.g. Little things grow by continual accumulation). 2. that > which is accumulated or has accumulated; mass; collection (e.g. > accumulation of snow.) McMillan Dictionary, 1984. > > Now let take the snow accumulation as an example. .... > Is this snow accumulation process similar to the accumulation of good > or bad qualities you were talking about? ----------- N: Snow melts in your hand, it is nothing. I wish it were the same with latent tendencies! We cannot imagine very well how latent tendencies operate. They do not arise, they lie dormant in the citta. Time and again a new accumulation is added on. This is possible, because it is mental. Different from materiality, such as a room that is limited to what it can contain. Ven. Nyanaponika explains them (in Abhidhamma Studies, p. 122) as dangerous microbes investing the body. You may not notice that you are sick, but any time they can condition the arising of akusala citta. Your point was actually, everything is impermanent and how can these latent tendencies stay. Each citta falls away, but at the same time we can notice that this person has a character, different from someone else's character. Each life also has a certain continuity and the reason is that cittas succeed one another without interval. Even in between processes there are still cittas, bhavangacittas that keep the continuity in one lifespan. However, accumulated tendencies can be changed. We have an inimaginable amount of ignorance, but this can gradually wear out by the development of right understanding. Evenso our accumulated lobha, dosa and moha, they can wear away. Lokuttara magga-cittas eradicate latent tendencies, but, in the process of development of the eightfold Path, latent tendencies are gradually worn away. Learning about latent tendencies makes us see the danger of akusala, we learn that the arising of akusala cittas is inpredictable, and that even strong degrees can suddenly arise. Also, that akusala is deeply rooted and very stubborn. Learning about this helps us to have a sense of urgency to develop any kind of kusala for which there is an opportunity, right now. Be it daana, siila or bhaavanaa. It is encouraging to know that in this way latent tendencies can be worn away, and eventually be eradicated. Nina 45044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. nilovg Hi Howard, I join James in his greetings. I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if you have time and inclination to write about this. Nina op 02-05-2005 05:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > buddhatrue@... writes: > >> Hi Howard (and All), >> >> Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. > ==================== > Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic > but wonderful. 45045 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Lisa, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Good example, thanks! mike 45046 From: "hasituppada" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations hasituppada Dear Nina, You said, "Hasituppada thinks that one should only take the Suttanta as guide for the practice, not the Abhidhamma. By Abhidhamma I do not mean the book, thus, it is not helpful to practise book in hand and try to catch all dhammas one learnt about." I think, that way for the following reason, please correct me if I am wrong. At the 1st Council, Venerable Ananda did not read out the Abhidhamma. Probably because he did not know it. Among the disciples of the Buddha it was only Venerable Sariputta, who pre- deceased the Buddha, who knew it. At the preparation of the Council, the Senior Arahats may have discussed an Agenda, and decided that Venerable Upali recite the Vinaya Pitaka first and then Venerable Ananda recite the Sutta Pitaka, what to be included , what not etc. Venerable Mahakassapa, who presided the First Council at Rajagaha, for some reason, may have perhaps considered it inappropriate to include Abhidhamma as a Pitaka. Therefore only the Sutta Pitaka was accepted as the true teachings of the Buddha and recited at the first Council. Even at the second council which was held 100 years after, Abhidhamma was excluded. It was only at the third council which was held 200 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha, that Abhidhamma was included as the third Pitaka. Therefore for well over 200 years, Sutta Pitaka was the only teachings of the Buddha his followers studied and used in practice. Dear Nina, isn't there therefore, reason to believe that Suttanta, takes first place in the Thi Pitaka, and that which the ancient Arahats read and re- read and practiced for 200 years should be the basis of our practice to-day. It has proved satisfactory among a large number of practicing meditators. I quite agree that Abhidhamma is a very interesting reading material for all Buddhists , but it has to be studied in addition to the Suttas, as a guide to understand the Sutta Pitaka, to know better the differences in rupa, citta, cetasika, and Nibbana, the four paramatta Dhamma. Not vice versa. What do you think about it Nina ? I am awaiting to read you with great interest, as I know that this is a subject very close to your heart, and more so because, I respect your great knowledge of Abhidhamma. with metta, Hasituppada ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Tep, Hasituppada and all, Hasituppada thinks that one should only take the Suttanta as guide .... 45047 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/05 10:06:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I join James in his greetings. > I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the > cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if > you have time and inclination to write about this. > Nina > ===================== Thanks for the greetings! :-) There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife and daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a pleasure. There was really little opportunity for much in the way of reflection, study, and formal meditation, but I did maintain mindfulness of internal (mental) states and bodily sensations much of the time. As to reactions, I did note some (quite manageable) anxiety arising in me at times, a not-infrequent occurrence when I am far from "home base". That is a form of clinging in me that I'm well aware of. I'm rather consistently in touch with it and with other akusala (and kusala) mindstates in "me". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45048 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:40am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing Dear Rob K, So clear are your messages. I am just enjoying reading letter by letter, word by word, phrase by phrase, sentence by sentence on your whole message. Here is just a simple reply and it will be just nodding agreeing what you said. I appreciate your good will and I do hope that all those who have not had such clearing understanding become to understand. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Dear Htoo, I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among Buddhists worldwide. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Maybe because people just learn suttas and not the whole teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of samatha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there are deviations from the right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: This is not to say that there are not people today who have the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to promote it to all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong way may be stepped. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus on an object - including breath - it is normally done with attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those lower beings to be detached from attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with detachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. After kaamaavacara cittas there are mahaggata cittas, which are also called majjhima cittas and the highest cittas, which are lokuttara cittas. All these cittas arise without attachment. So panna with detachment is ESSENTIAL. ESSENTIAL means it is totally impossible to arise so mentioned cittas without panna with detachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. No one has ability to see their accumulatoins. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the difficulty, not making it seem easy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati is easy'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Also vipassana, so profound. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Htoo: Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I can understand. I am not good at language. ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right conditions, not by trying to force them up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am considering who is forcing or who are forcing. Is that 'me'? Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Anatta can be contemplated at home, at monastry, in forest, on mountain, in plain, at cemetry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the world is not how it seems at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just remember The Buddha words. 'Ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddha vaa ajjhatta.mbahiddha vaa..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we want it too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Self-eraser is satipatthaana. If it is not genuine, 'self' will never be erased. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on the minor conditons we miss the main. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are minor conditions? And What are the main? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship after that and think that mighht help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are reason why these stories are included in teachings. These are teachings and not for self-infliction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at brothels? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the foundation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is right. That is why only 'Tihetukas are the only potential beings who can attain jhaana or magga & phala'. Otherwise, however hard one is practising he or she will never attain even appanaa samaadhi. Understanding is important. Yes. Understanding is the first. Understanding goes first. Understanding is the leader. Understanding sites at the top. Understanding leads the whole lot. Understanding is crucial. Understanding is essential. The Buddha preached Dhammacakkappavavattana to His first 5 disciples and in that sutta what comes first is samma-ditthi. The essence of samma-ditthi is panna or pannindriya cetasika. So why is understanding not important? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it hard to come back and resight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So 'Sine theta' has to be zero-log? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: So meditation centers etc have their good points, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good things always have good points. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- and that is not right. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to seeing your responses and answers to my questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45049 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Hi Tep, (Htoo*) =================================== *Htoo: I am going to be occupied with something the next few days. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to respond to your post. So please be patient. Metta, Sukinder -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: That is fine, Sukin. I myself will be busy in the coming days, weeks, months as I have no control over time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45050 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding, Walking Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Htoo, KenH, and Sukinder - I thought I did not have to explain why walking meditation was important, or explain about the object of walking meditation. But since KenH and other members have kept on ridiculing it , I have no choice but to respond. I might have been a little careless about what is the "object of satipatthana" and what is not. "As yogis carry on the practice, they will observe much more. When they lift their foot, they will experience the lightness of the foot. When they push the foot forward, they will notice the movement from one place to another. When they put the foot down, they will feel the heaviness of the foot, because the foot becomes heavier and heavier as it descends. When they put the foot on the ground, they will feel the touch of the heel of the foot on the ground. Therefore, along with observing lifting, moving forward, putting down, and pressing the ground, yogis will also perceive the lightness of the rising foot, the motion of the foot, the heaviness of the descending foot, and then the touching of the foot, which is the hardness or softness of the foot on the ground. When yogis perceive these processes, they are perceiving the four essential elements (in Pali, dhatu)." From: The Benefits of Walking Meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl137.html Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Ken H, Sukin and all, Brilliant! I could not find any ritual when Tep describes 'walking meditation'. I DO KNOW that UNDERSTANDING is very important. We all should know cittas. We all should know kusala and akusala. The Buddha teased Pothila when Pothila came near to The Buddha. 'Tuccha tuccha'. Pothila did know all the teachings of The Buddha. Pothila did have UNDERSTANDING. I believe Pothila would be much much more deeply understand Dhamma than any of DSG members. Because Pothila did speak the same language that The Buddha used and Pothila received first-hand teachings unlike DSG members. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45051 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will have a look. But after appearing of this reply post at DSG. And after finishing reading, I may write something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the matter of teachers to check their students. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The same with Goenka's methods, what was once controversial is now taken as right. It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But this path has been laid out by the Buddha, not by later teachers, we have to be so true to what is real, not assume any unusual experience is something deep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Did anyone say that there has been another path discovered by later teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with other way or other words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Let's just say the editor wasn't convinced the results were right. Again who is right here is not the main point, it is the uncritical attachment to the teachers or to strange experiences from concentrating that is the problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Better than before. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' > > 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' > > 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' > > Shocking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, not right attitude.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That was written by Mahaasi-hater/s. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > > > I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 > > particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala > > cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can > > accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point > of > > whether akusala or kusala. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, so if we know this we should be VERY careful when trying to understand satipatthana which is the most profound path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But - at least in my case- not a milestone. Only the result of wrong concentration ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You skilfully avoided. And it is also not my case. What I described to you is 10 hindrances. What I told you that my face grow is cittaja-rupa kaayavinatti. This means my face glow as my mind glow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I > > was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know > who > > is who, :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K ::)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I talked to Upasaka Howard, he mouthed 'he he he ..'. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But > we > do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, but only in the right way. Not a blanket praise for anyone who sits down and tries to concentrate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note in my note book. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I'll try to write some more tommorow. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already replied your 'tomorrow post'. I just find this post at a later time. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45052 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo - Did you hear similar stories about the Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo? Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Christine, Howard and All, Madaya Sayadaw died with a wound infested with lice. He did not allow anyone to treat his wound as there were lives. He died in peace and he was saluted for his 'Khanti' or endurance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45053 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. buddhistmedi... Hello Htoo and RobK - Thank you both for your entertaining dialogue. But I am wondering if reading such a dialogue is conducive to my practice of satipatthana. Please advise! Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob K, > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Dear Htoo, > > I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among > Buddhists worldwide. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Maybe because people just learn suttas and not the whole teachings. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the > commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of > samatha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so > subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there > are deviations from the right. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > This is not to say that there are not people today who have > the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to > promote it to all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote > should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong > way may be stepped. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus > on an object - including breath - it is normally done with > attachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings > in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time > bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not > rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those > lower beings to be detached from attachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with > detachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > True. After kaamaavacara cittas there are mahaggata cittas, which are > also called majjhima cittas and the highest cittas, which are > lokuttara cittas. All these cittas arise without attachment. So panna > with detachment is ESSENTIAL. ESSENTIAL means it is totally > impossible to arise so mentioned cittas without panna with detachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose > the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going > wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You are right. No one has ability to see their accumulatoins. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the > difficulty, not making it seem easy. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Also vipassana, so profound. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I agree. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every > moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are > the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, > lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***** Htoo: > > Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I > can understand. I am not good at language. > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right > conditions, not by trying to force them up. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I am considering who is forcing or who are forcing. Is that 'me'? Are > those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- > Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Anatta can be contemplated at home, at monastry, in forest, on > mountain, in plain, at cemetry. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for > few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and > thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the > world is not how it seems at all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I just remember The Buddha words. > > 'Ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddha vaa ajjhatta.mbahiddha vaa..' > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we > want it too. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the > opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Self-eraser is satipatthaana. If it is not genuine, 'self' will never > be erased. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on > the minor conditons we miss the main. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became > sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship > after that and think that mighht help. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There are reason why these stories are included in teachings. These > are teachings and not for self-infliction. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that > attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri > lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at > brothels? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being > alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be > streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the > foundation. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > That is right. That is why only 'Tihetukas are the only potential > beings who can attain jhaana or magga & phala'. > > Otherwise, however hard one is practising he or she will never attain > even appanaa samaadhi. > > Understanding is important. Yes. Understanding is the first. > Understanding goes first. Understanding is the leader. Understanding > sites at the top. Understanding leads the whole lot. Understanding is > crucial. Understanding is essential. The Buddha preached > Dhammacakkappavavattana to His first 5 disciples and in that sutta > what comes first is samma-ditthi. The essence of samma-ditthi is > panna or pannindriya cetasika. > > So why is understanding not important? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it > reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this > path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at > the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it > hard to come back and resight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So 'Sine theta' has to be zero-log? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > So meditation centers etc have their good points, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Good things always have good points. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and > concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- > and that is not right. > > Robertk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45054 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:13am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Htoo: I am not aware of that. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I read it. ''Then the Tipitakadhara Sayadaw continued with the following points which puzzled and troubled me further. A recently published book contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed in the Tipitaka, the Buddhist Canon. The book, by a well known sayadaw, was no less than an attempt to set a new direction and a new agenda for vipassana meditation in Myanmar..."" RobertK'' Before this paragraph seem to be good. That is U Sumangala admitted that Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing were in accord with Tipitaka, The Buddha Cannon. But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'll try to write some more tommorow. > > RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your link to your old message. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (341) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' I repeat these frequently so that these kamma will be familiar with. Garuka kamma are heavy kamma. So heavy that they give rise to their result as rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta in the next life. Garuka kamma are like 'jhaana kusala kamma'. When dying if being is developing jhaana and if marana-asanna-javana arises with jhaana-kusala cittas, this kamma becomes garuka kamma and no other kamma can hinder that garuka kamma or heavy kamma. As soon as jhaana-javana ends, cuti citta follows and when this cuti citta passes away, a patisandhi citta which is the result of jhaana- kusala citta arises in the next life as a brahma. Garuka kamma are heavy and no other kamma can overstep him if there is garuka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1 Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. PS: 2 Currently Dhamma Thread is Dhamma Thread (373). According to Mods' advice, I restrict. Actually I wish to write 2000 in a day in a group and then leave the internet while giving someone my password and let him or her to copy and post to other groups. 45056 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <> > But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book > contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana > meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed > in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =========== Dear Htoo, It is a quote from the article published by the Mahasi people referring to a book by Pa Auk sayadaw. Pa Auk is critical of Mahasi method and his books are now banned in burma. Robertk 45057 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - Training of Perception [DN 9] buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Lisa, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - Phil, you were talking about sanna (perception): >Ph: It has a function to assist citta in marking objects, but it comes >and goes so quickly that I don't know how we can use it >for training kusala. T: O.K. Let me go back one more time to the [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] quote I used twice before . I'll use it here as basis to explain how one may use sanna "for training kusala" dhammas as well as eradicating akusalas. With concentration and seclusion(viveka) as the supporting conditions, the yogi enters the 1st jhana and two cetasikas, piti and sukha, arise. Developing the 1st jhana is the training for the perception of "refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion", cause it to arise and replace the "earlier perception of sensuality" (that existed prior the attainment of the 1st jhana). Next, the yogi trains (citta-sikkha) further to enter the 2nd jhana with a higher concentration and without vitakka and vicara. Because of such training the perception of "a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration" now arises, and "his earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion" ceases. So we can see that an inferior perception gets replaced by a superior perception during a training (there are 3 kinds of training in sila, citta and panna). In the same token, a perception of a given akusala could be replaced by a perception of the opposite kusala dhamma through the right kind of training. An example, niccasanna is replaced by aniccasanna through aniccanupassana. This is my understanding, please feel free to correct me if I was wrong. I will come back to discuss the first half of your message in the next message. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > As for sanna, I have learned that it is a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta, and that we misunderstand it if we think of > it as perception in the conventional sense. It has a function to > assist citta in marking objects, but it comes and goes so quickly > that I don't know how we can use it for training kusala. You may > have a different approach, and that's fine. Who knows - we both may > be right! The Buddha's wisdom is so ineffably deep that it may > allow for more than one Right Way. > > Metta, > Phil 45058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: saññaa. nilovg Dear Tep, You remember I gave some examples about meanings of saññaa? That it sometimes stands for citta, or for vipassana? That is how we came to talk about the Maha-nidaana sutta. There is no specific training of saññaa, but saññaa accompanies citta, in this case jhanacitta. Nina. op 02-05-2005 06:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a > wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as > Adhicitta-sikkha means. 45059 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: saññaa. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Please read my message # 45057 (the one just came a few minutes earlier) and tell me if the idea in that message makes sense, after replacing "perception" by "jhanacitta" as you have suggested. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > You remember I gave some examples about meanings of saññaa? That it > sometimes stands for citta, or for vipassana? That is how we came to talk > about the Maha-nidaana sutta. There is no specific training of saññaa, but > saññaa accompanies citta, in this case jhanacitta. > Nina. > op 02-05-2005 06:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a > > wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as > > Adhicitta-sikkha means. 45060 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <> > > But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book > > contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana > > meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed > > in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? > > ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------- -- > > > > =========== > Dear Htoo, > It is a quote from the article published by the Mahasi people referring > to a book by Pa Auk sayadaw. Pa Auk is critical of Mahasi method and > his books are now banned in burma. > Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Rob K, I am not clear. I am lost on the way between our exchange as we just cut some pieces. So do you means 1. Pa Auk wrote ''Mahasi's wrote wrong things'' or do you mean 2. Mahasi's Sayadaw's writings are not in accord with Tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon? With respect, Htoo Naing 45061 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > ---------------------- > Dear Rob K, > > I am not clear. I am lost on the way between our exchange as we just > cut some pieces. > > So > > do you means > > 1. Pa Auk wrote ''Mahasi's wrote wrong things'' > > or do you mean > > 2. Mahasi's Sayadaw's writings are not in accord with Tipitaka, the > Buddha Cannon? > > ====== Dear Htoo, The main point was that you and other members have mentioned both Pa Auk and Mahasi. But a problem with deciding to take a modern teacher as our authority is if they disagree on some aspect of Dhamma. See this web article that was also published in a small book http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm I wasn't taking sides on the debate between the Mahasi and Pa Auk camp (although I am probably closer to Mahasi than Pa Auk). Just pointing out this problem. If you say both are right.... Or like the debate between the Acharn Mun school and Nyanaponika, who is right? It was all related to my point of attaching to teachers, versus finding out the way so that the dhammas themselves teach. Robertk 45062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Hasituppada, Rob K and Sarah have written many thorough posts on the historical side of the Abhidhamma, as belonging to the oldest tradition. It is in U.P. under Abhidhamma. As far as I understood, the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries were recited from the first Council on. I do not think it to be a later tradition, but most important to me: how does it relate to our life? And, the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. In the U.P. of our list also sutta texts are mentioned that refer to Abhidhamma, especially where the suttas are explained under the aspect of angas. I am preparing to go out of town the whole day tomorrow, so I cannot go deeper into this now. I can repost what I wrote today to the Pali list where a discussion was going on. It is an old post of mine. < I hope that very gradually people will relate Abhihamma to their personal life. I am always impressed when reading the very beginning of the Dhammasangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma. I read about all the sobhana cetasikas that come to assist the first type of mahaa-kusala citta accompanied by paññaa. This clarifies how many conditions are necessary for just one moment of kusala citta that falls away immediately. The text is very direct, straight to the point, and I find that it goes straight to the heart. But the Abhidhamma is not supposed to be book study, it is to be lived and practised. Then one will discover many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never thought of before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than one could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways. And see the suttas: here we also find the teaching of kusala and akusala. How lobha lures us all the time. Through the Abhidhamma we come to know the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts that seem to be wholesome. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in our life, we will be urged to be mindful of all realities, akusala included. By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. Learning about the latent tendencies helps us to understand why we again and again make the same mistakes in life. We learn more details about conceit and come to know that it can arise with regard to any object we experience. See the Book of Analysis, Small Matters. We should study the Abhidhamma together with Suttanta and Vinaya. Through the Vinaya we learn about many shades and degrees of defilements, to see danger in the smallest faults. Through the Abhidhamma we come to understand more the Buddha's message contained in the suttas and the Vinaya. The Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana.> I also learn from the Abhidhamma that the source of all problems in life is our defilements, not other people, not the situations we are in. The above matters are more important to me than historical arguments althout these may help people to have more confidence. Just some personal thoughts. Nina. ---------- op 02-05-2005 17:43 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > > Therefore only the Sutta Pitaka was accepted as the true teachings > of the Buddha and recited at the first Council. Even at the second > council which was held 100 years after, Abhidhamma was excluded. It > was only at the third council which was held 200 years after the > parinibbana of the Buddha, that Abhidhamma was included as the > third Pitaka. 45063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your report. You did not forget the Dhamma also when away from homebase. It shows that listening, considering, discussing are indeed conditions for remembering the Dhamma. There is dhamma everywhere, and I am glad, I have muditaa about your happiness of being together with the whole family. Even the anxiety is dhamma, it is real, it is conditioned. Nina. op 02-05-2005 17:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:>> > ===================== > Thanks for the greetings! :-) > There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising > during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife > and > daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being > together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a > pleasure. 45064 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: saññaa. nilovg Dear Tep, I go to sleep now, a trip tomorrow, sorry. Yes, it sounds good what you did, but I cannot look it up now. Nina. op 02-05-2005 21:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Please read my message # 45057 (the one just came a few minutes > earlier) and tell me if the idea in that message makes sense, after > replacing "perception" by "jhanacitta" as you have suggested. 45065 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Lisa, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - Now, as I promised, I am back to discuss your idea of conditioning states. Remember you said the following? Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > investigation of this all important condition! T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following the previous one in the previous moment. Playing first with the basic concepts is a key to gain clear understanding of how the factors work together, I believe. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Tep > > (snipped) > "Conditions", of course, refers to paccayadhamma (conditioning > states) and paccayuppannadhamma (conditioned states) which are > linked together in a very precise way. I throw around the > word "conditions" quite loosely because I don't yet understand > their working well enough to be more specific - but I am studying, > and reflecting on conditions in daily life. > > (snipped) > Metta, > Phil 45066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Robert K, Thanks for your linking. I have read it straight away. Now I am happy. Please see below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, The main point was that you and other members have mentioned both Pa Auk and Mahasi. But a problem with deciding to take a modern teacher as our authority is if they disagree on some aspect of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. I will repeat that again. To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. My teacher is The Buddha Gotama. Satipatthana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Vipassana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Meditation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. The way for liberation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. I appreciate The Sangha, including Venerable Moggallaana, Venerable Sariputta, Venerable Upaali, Venerable Kassapa. I appreciate all those who traditionally handed over the teachings down to today and I salute them. I did not find anything wrong in Mahaasii' writings. I will talk on another thread about this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: See this web article that was also published in a small book http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Rob K. I read it. After reading that (../pandita5.htm ), I feel deeper respect to Mahaasii Sayadaw than I did. Because Mahaasii Sayadaw was right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I wasn't taking sides on the debate between the Mahasi and Pa Auk camp (although I am probably closer to Mahasi than Pa Auk). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already said above. I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. This also include Mahaasii Sayadaw. That is I do not appoint Mahaasii Sayadaw as a modern teacher. I am not audience of such matter. I am just an audience of my own path and my journey. That is I am the audience to what arises as nama and what arises as rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Just pointing out this problem. If you say both are right.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would say The Buddha is right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or like the debate between the Acharn Mun school and Nyanaponika, who is right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In my mind, there is no debate. What is in my mind is to do the audience of nama and rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It was all related to my point of attaching to teachers, versus finding out the way so that the dhammas themselves teach. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Attachment is for all those who want it and who do not want to release it. Grasp a cobra. As soon as, one knows that it is a cobra, he or she has to throw it away. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45067 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours lbidd2 Hi Phil, The "intrinsically desirable or undesirable" category of 5-door objects is rather broad and general. The examples given in CMA are the Buddha and a beautiful woman for for inherently desirable visible objects and a rotting corpse for an inherently undesirable visible object. I don't think this category would apply on a microscopic, paramattha dhamma level. So I don't think it is a factor in the analysis of a single colour or a taste, for example. However, for your own information, the experience of an inherently desirable object is considered kusala kamma vipaka (wholesome kamma result), meaning that it is the result of a wholesome javana citta such as nondesire, nonaversion, or wisdom. So if you see a pretty girl it means you did something right in the (possibly distant) past. Regarding understanding blue, one way to work with 5-door objects on an experiential level is to take an object you like a lot and look at it carefully. I like a particular kind of cookie. First I look at it and notice the colours. If it has just the right colour I could notice that consciousness of the bare colour arises with a neutral feeling but also there is something "right" about this colour. This rightness is a perception conditioned by an accumulation of previous cookie experiences. And this conditions a liking of the colour. Along with the liking comes a pleasant feeling. So in association with the subtle perfect colour of the cookie are two feelings, neutral and pleasant, a liking, and a history of cookie experiences. All of this is likely to be combined and misunderstood as the colour of the cookie. In reality the colour is just the colour, not any feeling, not liking, not a history, and not even a correct understanding. You could work the same out for texture, temperature, smell and taste. Consciousness of taste and smell is also accompanied by neutral feeling but consciousness of texture and temperature would be accompanied by pleasant feeling if it was really a good cookie. Larry 45068 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Vism.XIV,157 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 157. (9)-(13) All those stated in the first instance, except the three abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), come into association with the first of the fine-material profitable [kinds of consciousness] (9). With the second (10) applied thought (iii) is also lacking. With the third (11) sustained thought (iv) is also lacking. With the fourth (12) happiness (v) is also lacking. With the fifth (13) compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii), among the inconstant, are also lacking. (14)-(17) In the case of the four kinds of immaterial [profitable consciousness] these are the same as the last-mentioned, for it is only the immaterialness that is the difference here. 45069 From: naresh gurwani Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Self & No Self nar_gurwani Hi Nina Since long time iam not in to this discussion board, i have a question what is the difference between a Monk & layperson, is it that Monk is one who stays in seclusion and practices & learns And Layperson is one who follows dhamma but is also a householder ? Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing only Truth, So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this 2 clashes & make my living worse. awaiting your reply Naresh --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 30-04-2005 21:11 schreef Larry op > LBIDD@...: > > > Can you give an example of prompted insight? > N: It is hard to know whether the first type of > mahaa-kusala citta arises > which is unprompted, or the second type, which is > prompted. Being unprompted > tells us actually something about the quality and > power of kusala. > The second one is less powerful, it need not be > induced by someone else. > An example of the sod type could be: the Buddha > says: Bhikkhus, do not be > neglectful. Be aware. > His words can be a condition to be aware at this > moment. > Nina. > > > > 45070 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:53pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) foamflowers Hello Tep (Nina, Phil, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) As you all know I am new to this kind of study and as I was going through words I don't know mentioned in the emails I get from DSG I looked up this word,pakatuupanissaaya and found this word "paticca-samuppáda or Paticcasamuppada." The law of depedent orgination. Seems that is what the Abhidhamma is all about plus anatta what is impersonal. The doctrine of dependent origination, flows like a stream by showing that all these things (phenomena) are in one way or another conditionally related with each other. While anatta takes things apart to their smallest part and shows they are empty of self. That is what the Abhidhamma seems to point to that is not self and the dependent nature of things, that is phenomena, physical/mental objects. by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw taken from a a larger article. Those persons who wish to attain the Paths and the Fruits thereof in this very life must fulfil the first eleven carana-dhamma, i.e. sila, indriya-samvara, bhojanemattannuta, jagariyanuyoga, and the seven saddhamma. Herein, sila means ajivatthamaka-nicca-sila (permanent practice of morality ending with right livelihood); indriya-samvara means guarding the six sense-doors--eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind; bhojanemattanuta means taking just sufficient food to preserve the balance of the corporeality group in the body and being satisfied therewith; jagariyanuyogo means not sleeping during the day, and sleeping only during one period (of the three periods) of the night, practising bhavana (mental concentration) during the other two periods. Saddhamma means: 1. saddha (faith) 2. sati (mindfulness) 3. hiri (moral shame) 4. ottappa (moral dread) 5. bahusacca (great learning) 6. viriya (energy; diligence) 7. panna (wisdom). Lack of moral shame is called ahirika. [Lisa] I have read here on DSG that to put for effort to attain paramis is a wasted effort...tightly sitting cross legged with eyes squeezed shut and forcing wisdom, insight and the virtues like dana, metta, kaurna, ect., toarise. These things should arise naturally and one cannot force them this is the message I get, and also it is almost impossible in this age for a common person to know wisdom, insight and virtues beyond just pretending. With the idea of dependent orgination and the impersonal or indifference of anatta I see you can condition these things to arise through practice and effort. Maybe not squeezing the eyes shut tightly while sitting cross legged for hours. But remembering through the day how behavior is conditioned and if it is it can be changed through effort and discipline. Through remembering sati, all through the day the flow of dependent orgination, that is the body mind is in flux I can change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits. More from this lovely man Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw Dhammantaraya By miccha-dhamma that are likely to cause dhammantaraya is meant such views, practices and limitations as the inability to see the dangers of samsara, the belief that these are times when the Paths and the Fruits can no longer be attained, the tendency to defer effort until the parami ripen, the belief that persons of the present day are dvi-hetuka,[38] the belief that the great teachers of the past were nonexistent, etc. Even though it does not reach the ultimate, no kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is ever rendered futile. If effort be made, a kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is instrumental in producing parami in those who do not possess parami. If no effort be made, the opportunity to acquire parami is lost. If those whose parami are immature put forth effort, their parami become ripe and mature. Such persons can attain the Paths and Fruits in their next existence within the present Sasana. If no effort be made, the opportunity for the parami to riper, is lost. If those whose parami is ripe and mature put forth effort, the Paths and the Fruits can be attained within this life. If no effort be made the opportunity to attain the Paths and the Fruits is lost. If persons who are dvi-hetuka put forth effort, they can become tihetuka[39] in their next existence. If they do not put forth effort, they cannot ascend from the stage of dvi-hetuka and will slide down to the stage of ahetuka.[40] In this world, there is a certain person who plans to become a bhikkhu. If another person says to him, 'entertain the intention only if you can remain a bhikkhu all your life. Otherwise, do not entertain the idea', it amounts to dhammantaraya. 'Cittuppadamattam pi kusalesu dhammesu bahupakaram vadami.' (I declare that the mere arising of intention for the performance of meritorious deeds is productive of great benefits).[41] Thus did the Buddha preach. With Metta, Lisa In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello Phil (Nina, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - > > Now, as I promised, I am back to discuss your idea of conditioning > states. Remember you said the following? > > Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would > >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition > >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > > investigation of this all important condition! > > T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid > succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I > don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. > Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is > the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following >the previous one in the previous moment. Playing first with the basic > concepts is a key to gain clear understanding of how the factors >work together, I believe. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > 45071 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Htoo: > > To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern > teacher. > > I will repeat that again. To be honest, to be very honest, I do not > appoint anyone as a modern teacher. > > My teacher is The Buddha Gotama. > > Satipatthana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Vipassana is taught by > The Buddha Gotama. Meditation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. The way > for liberation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. > > I appreciate The Sangha, including Venerable Moggallaana, Venerable > Sariputta, Venerable Upaali, Venerable Kassapa. I appreciate all > those who traditionally handed over the teachings down to today and I > salute them. > > I did not find anything wrong in Mahaasii' writings. I will talk on > another thread about this. > =============== Dear Htoo, I am glad you follow the Buddha raher than a modern teacher. But twice recently you mention Mahasi and Pa Auk in the same sentence This is one case: ""Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar?"" I only recognize Ledi , Pa Auk and Mahasi. Since Mahasi school and Pa Auk are now writing books criticising each others methods we might assume at least one of them has something wrong. I look forward to your comments on Mahasi. robertk 45072 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most of your reply and comment only on a few points: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Htoo: > > I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so > subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there > are deviations from the right. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > This is not to say that there are not people today who have > the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to > promote it to all. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote > should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong > way may be stepped. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus > on an object - including breath - it is normally done with > attachment. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings > in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time > bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not > rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those > lower beings to be detached from attachment. > -------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the > difficulty, not making it seem easy. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. > Rob K: > > In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every > moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are > the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, > lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > ***** Htoo: > > Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I > can understand. I am not good at language. > ***** > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, it is like an amazing miracle that citta can arise. For just one citta the extraordinary complexity of paccaya that have to come together - and it is all happening so, so fast. Impossible that anyone could ever arrange any of these to happen. So the ones that continually arise are those rooted in lobha, dosa and moha. Why? Becuase they are the ones that have arisen so often in every life, in trillions of lives. And each life has trillions of these arising every day. So we have to know this, otherwise we will think some unusual or refined type of lobha is panna. Because lobha has many tricks to make it look attractive. --- > Rob K: > > The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right > conditions, not by trying to force them up. > > Rob K: > > > Rob K: > > I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we > want it too. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - You will have to explain this reference. ================ > > Rob K: > > It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on > the minor conditons we miss the main. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? > -------------------------- The main conditions are hearing the Dhamma, considering it correctly and deeply and applying it correctly. The minor are things like food, health, cleanliness, bodily seclusion etc.. -------------------------------------------- >> Htoo: > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at > brothels? > ---------- Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the Buddha even. > Rob K: > > people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and > concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- > and that is not right. > > Robertk > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. >=============== Dear Htoo, This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be held onto and studied. So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by concentrating. RobertK 45073 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 182- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Answers, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Right Effort of the eightfold Path contd.] Questions i What can obstruct right effort? ii When we are thinking of the goal with discouragement, what can be done to persevere? iii How can signs of foulness and decay in the body be reminders of awareness of the present reality? iv Why is listening to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person helpful for the arising of sati? ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 45074 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 154, 155, and Tiika. sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina, Lisa & Azita), You questioned before why K.Sujin referred to conceit and anger, for example, as being harsh and I suggested there was no gentleness at such times. I was reminded of your question when I just (a little behind)read Nina's comments here from the Vism Tiika: --- nina wrote: > The Tiika explains that the three virati cetasikas draw back from evil > because of gentleness (soracca). When the the citta is gentle and kind, > one > will not cause any harm to others; one will respect another being¹s > life, > one will not take away his property and one will not commit adultery > since > that causes sorrow to someone else. > One may abstain from evil conduct, not because one thinks that one has > to > follow rules, but because one has loving-kindness and gentleness towards > other beings. One takes their welfare to heart. .... S: So when we speak or act out of conceit, other kinds of attachment or anger, the cittas are harsh - no gentleness or concern for the others' welfare at all. .... > N:> We may be inclined to take abstention from evil for self, but we should > remember that virati is a sobhana cetasika that arises with kusala citta > when there are the right conditions. It arises just for a moment and > then > falls away immediately. It does not belong to amyone. .... S: So, changing gentle and harsh cittas all the time....and as Nina, says, we tend to take these qualities for self - for 'me' or the 'other', but they are mere conditioned dhammas. Lisa gave a good reminder in her helpful post on '~nana and interesting word'. She gave the Pali which referred to the 'sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence'. The second stage of insight is this knowledge (~nana) about conditioned dhammas. No 'self' involved at all. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil - while I have your 'ear', you mentioned that when Azita asked about 'motion' (vayo), saying she found it difficult I think, that she didn't get a reply. Actually, I'd like to say, she addressed her qu to K.Sujin and K.Sujin did reply. It may not have been the kind of reply you (or she) expected and I forget the brief words (you can remind me), but it left an impression on me. I understood it to be along the lines of: Don't try to pinpoint or 'work out' what a reality is because then there won't be any awareness. In other words, it'll be attachment and self trying to find the reality which doesn't appear now by thinking, rather than just being aware of whatever does appear right now. As I say, If forget the words, but thought it was a good reply at the time. Another time, the reply might be quite different. Metta, Sarah ========= 45075 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > >. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or > wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being > authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating > on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is the matter of teachers to check their students. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but > people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Dear Htoo, When I was at a temple in thailand in the late 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous) home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of pilgrimage and having heard about this temple came to stay. He had been there for about 6 weeks when I arrived and I was interested to meet him because I was thinking about visiting his center in the following year. He told me that when he first met the teacher where we now were, he was asked about his understanding and experiences; when it became clear that the monk thought he had experienced nibbana the teacher told him he was simply fooling himself, (self-hypnosis he called it). Anyway over the next few weeks the monk came to see that he was indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to know him well (apart from the teacher he and another long term resident were the only people I was permitted to talk to - a very strict temple). Anyway over the next month he had some more struggles-because the teacher insisted that not only had he not not attained nibbana, but he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). This monk led a rigorous life and kept the vinaya strictly, but he had been going the wrong way. Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; .. .. from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......" Micchatta.m, bhikkhave, aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, micchatta.m aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa? Micchaadi.t.thikassa, bhikkhave, , micchaavaayaa..... massa micchaasati pahoti, micchaasatissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti, micchaasamaadhissa micchaa~naa.na.m pahoti, micchaa~naa.nissa ?E4 micchaavimutti pahoti This monk knew pali, studied Abhidhamma but still had wrong view conditioning wrong practice. Because wrong view is deep, it isn't just because someone knows abhidhamma they don't have wrong view. They may believe in control just as much as any non-buddhist unless they have really striven with right effort to understand. Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that is important. Instead this monk had been indicated by his teachers that he was at this and that stage of insight. He in turn had told (or hinted) to his students they were at this or that stage of insight: but now he found out he was taking unusual experiences that happen due to strong concentration as stages of insight. On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. Khun sujin explained to me that even at the first stage of insight where nama is distingushed from rupa the whole world is turned over. The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti-lakkhana. Robertk 45076 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Larry, Hope you don't mind my butting in here - --- Philip wrote: > I get confused because I have learned that visible objects are > classified as pleasant or unpleasant, that there is something > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them. Is that simply > because they are kussala or akusala vipaka, the result of kusala or > akusala kamma, so we must say there is something intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant about them? .... S: It depends on kamma what visible object will be experienced (or not experienced) at this moment - pleasant or unpleasant. .... > > I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the > same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand > for me. .... S: Visible object is just that which is seen. Period. We can refer to it as colour, because colour is an important aspect of it, but there is also light and so on -- just what is seen now. Sometimes people are confused and think they suddenly should start seeing a blue haze or something:-).* So, it's not the colour like blue which is inherently pleasant or unpleasant, but the visible object which is seen. Perhaps it's easier to understand (theoretically) with sound -- some like when we hear thunder are inherently unpleasant. but don't get hung up on this point -- it's impossible to know when vipaka is pleasant/unpleasant and it would be quite wrong to try and find out, like trying to be aware of motion or any other aspect. .... > On the other hand, we know that visible objects do not give rise > to pleasant or unpleasant feeling - feeling arising from eye door > objects is always neutral. So this is all confusing for me...Before > I took seeing for granted. Now I know how subtle it is. .... S: The feeling accompanying seeing is neutral, but the subsequent cittas in the sense and mind doors can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. As soon as visible object is seen, there's likely to be attachment or aversion or ignorance. Hence the reminders about 'guarding' with awareness. .... S: Yes, Larry gave excellent passages from the commentaries. "It is non-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power.." On the passage he quoted on impermanence, my summary is that the impermanence of dhammas is not seen because of a)the idea of continuity b)the idea of postures and c) the idea of a mass When dhammas are seen as having their own discrete characteristics, are not concealed by an idea of posture and are distinguished from each other, they can be known as namas and rupas. "But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident." (Pm 824). Metta, Sarah *Dhammasangani 616 (U Kyaw Khine transl): "Visible Object What is the Corporeality which is visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness? Dependent on the four Primary Elements, there is the Corporeality which is visible, which arises with impingement, and is of various colours: dark blue, pale yellow...........light greeen; long, short, small, large, shperical, circular....; low, high; shade, sunshine; light, darkness; cloud, snow, smoke, mist; moonlight, sunlight, starlight, light from a looking glass; colour of a precious stone (such as a ruby), a conch, a pearl, an emerald; colour of gold and silver. Apart and different from the above visible objects and depending on the Primary Elements, there are also other visible objects which are visible and which arise with impingement. With the Eye-sensitivity which is not visible and which arises with impingement, one saw, sees, will see, and may see this visible object which is visible and which arises with impingement. This Corporeality is also known as visible object, also as the visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness, ans also as the Element of visible object. This is the Corporeality which is a visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness." ================================= 45077 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reality and the Mind sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > You are correct that the material in my post comes from a number of > sources; some of the material originates from the Suttas, some from > the commentaries, some from the Abhidhammatthasangaha and some from > Ledi Sayadaw. > > If I want to break out the Ledi Sayadaw stuff, I should probably > also break out the Abhidhammatthasangaha stuff as well. The citta > process is only broadly mentioned in the commentaries and virtually > non-existent in the Suttas. ... S: Perhaps it would just be better to say 'according to Ledi Sayadaw' if it is referring to his writing and not found in the commentaries. For the 'Abhidhammatthasangaha stuff', you could also refer to this source. As you know, however, I read it as a 'Summary' of the Abhidhamma and commentaries and believe that all the details included, such as the citta process details, can be found in these texts. For example, the Visuddhimagga and its Tiika along with the commentaries to the first two books of the Abhidhamma include all the 'citta process stuff':-). If you find any aspect that you believe is new to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, I'll gladly try to chase down an earlier source:-). As I say, I haven't been able to do this for some of the details Ledi Sayadaw gives, which is why I asked you. ..... > In spite of this, I have heard a number of Dhamma speakers reference > the 17 step citta process as "the word of the Buddha". ... S: As it says in the Atthasalini, that which is in conformity with the Buddha's teaching and spoken by the great arahants came to be known as 'the word of the Buddha' with his authority. This would include the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka and ancient commentaries as I understand. .... >During my > class, I usually comment on the original source of each idea (Sutta, > commentary, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Ledi Sayadaw or even modern > writers such as Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc.). ... S: I think this is the best way. <...> Snipped all agreed parts as Htoo would say with smiles:-):-) .... > When I presented this paper in my class, I was asked why the mind > would identify one a particular thing from a visual field. This led > to a very interesting discussion of natural decisive support > condition. ... S: Yes natural decisive support condition is v.important. Accumulated sanna which marks and remembers is the key here, I think. ... Metta, Sarah p.s Phil asked you a qu in his post #44989 which you may have missed. =============== 45078 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: <...> > > T: So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? > ... > S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – <..> > T: You're right ! I have asked you to select one of the three choices. > > So, of course, there is a view of " *us*, *doing* and *something*". But > > how can you avoid that? ... S: I was probably just being 'difficult' for which I apologise. My point was just the one that was made recently in one of the extracts from 'Cetasikas': "We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own condtions." S: The same applies, I think, to making choices, decisions and so on. We think that if there is more understanding of conditioned dhammas we'll no longer be able to function normally or make decisions, but of course this is quite wrong and you weren't suggesting it. Perhaps I should have simply asked you in your question what you meant when you wrote the following: 'what do you think we the worldling followers should do?'. Did you mean: a) There really is something *we* can do? b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing conditioned dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled by any decision-making. .... <...> > You have to make a selection of what to do. Then there are more > selection/ decision makings thereafter. How can anyone stop making > a choice? .... S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is any self involved. Do we agree here? ... > ------------------- > > T: the reason I asked you to select one of the 3 alternative practices > great Arahants did ...b) Learn and know all dhammas (the > bodhipakkheya dhammas) that are needed ...c) a combination of a) > and b)> was due to your quote : "Gladly would I have my skin and > sinews and bones wither and my body's flesh and blood dry up, if only > I may hold out until I win ...". ... S: I know:-) This is why I preferred to look at how we read these phrases -- with or without an idea of Self involved. .... > T: <..> "By my earnest > endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom > from the bond". The interpretation of 'there is a self' to 'control' > something, to make something happen, are your own. I don't think any > well-educated Buddhist, or even Tep, gets mixed up that way. Striving > is one thing, understanding the anatta principle is another. ... S: OK, I'm glad there's no disagreement and again I sincerely apologise if I misinterpreted your comments, Tep. so we both agree that any such striving or endeavour are conditioned dhammas and that there never has been any self and there never will be, however much ignorance and wrong view there may be. When it comes to the practice, from the very beginning, the understanding and effort have to be 'right' without any idea of a self making decisions or striving. .... > > T: Those monks who listened to the Buddha and did not waste their > time and energy wondering what the Blessed One meant; they too > made earnest endeavor and won "the unrivalled freedom from the > bond". Such earnest endeavor, the striving earnestly, is viriya bala, > one of the 37 factors in the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. ... S: Yes, with the understanding that such endeavour follows right understanding 'the forerunner' and without any idea that there really was any monk to do anything. ... > T: The anatta principle should not be mixed up with striving. > What is anatta? Anatta is one of the three "characteristics of > existence" > (ti-lakkhana). The anatta principle is given Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59, > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, as follows: > > Any form (rupa), feeling, perception, mental fabrications and > consciousness whatsoever that are past, future, or present; internal or > external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: each of > them is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is > not > mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' ... S: Good. As we discussed before, striving refers to atapi (endeavour), a synonym for effort. So here, striving or effort is included in sankhara khandha which refers to the 50 cetasikas apart from feeling and perception. So striving or endeavour is anatta too, just like all other conditioned dhammas (and also nibbana of course). .... > > T: The striving that is guided by right views (samma-ditthi) is a path > factor. Understanding very clearly (penetration) the anatta principle > establishes samma-ditthi, the first path factor. In order to attain the > right > view both right mindfulness and right effort (striving) are required .... S: I think this is true, but they have to develop together, not so much understanding 'the anatta principle', so much as understanding presently arising dhammas that 'appear' such as seeing or visible object for what they are. When there is right awareness and right understanding, right effort is there already. ... > < MN 117: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to > enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus > these > three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run > & circle > around right view.> Hence anybody who understands the Buddha's > Teaching would not mix up striving with anatta. ... S: yes, exactyly - they 'run and circle around right view'. Without right view, there cannot be any right striving. I think, with respect, that there's a big difference between theoretically understanding 'the Buddha's Teaching' and precisely and directly understanding present namas and rupas. Until such understanding develops, I think we're bound to often take all sorts of daily strivings for being 'self', sometimes in subtle ways as I just mentioned to Phil, such as when we try to be aware of particular dhammas. .... <..> ***** > T: I appreciate your kind attention on the going-on anapanasati > discussion. I think it would be great if we have a famous meditator > among us to answer all the practical questions that have come up. .... S: Ah, but we have the Buddha's teachings -- all we need now is to consider, reflect, 'strive':-))and develop more understanding together... Thanks for all your other great posts which certainly help raise many important aspects of the teachings. Please don't mind if some of us seem particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere and everyone will appreciate it. Metta, Sarah ======= 45079 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Sarah - > > Thank you for being patient with me. Most people would have already > given up because of my stubborness. But I want to assure you that the > stubborness is not because of miccha ditthi. ::->) ... S: Not at all -- I think we're very fortunate to have your very well considered (and practised) reflections here ::->) ... > T: Yes, Sarah, I agree with you that each moment of satipatthana > (given that it arises) is so tiny. Yet, that when all three are > "right" (1. > view, 2 mindfulness. 3. effort), one will be free from lobha, dosa and > moha in that tiny moment. > > S: > I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until > it is > > eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any > > development of right view in the meantime. > > > > T: Indeed, because of anusaya we will continue to have "the lurking > tendency to sakkaya-ditthi.. until it is eradicated". Further, based on > the > Paramattha dhamma principles, one cannot predict, "make" > or "maintain" these precious moments. It sounds like a hopeless > practice to me when you cannot be sure when sati may arise, or > whether it may arise -- not unlike a casino game. So do you keep on > playing this 'random game' until you win or die? .... S: Right, 'you' cannot predict, make, maintain or be sure of anything. However, it's not hopeless or random or resembling a casino game at all:-). I think that beginning to shed the coat of wrong view of self is enormous and when it becomes more and more apparent that there really are just these conditioned elements, the path really becomes very simple and straight forward -- the opposite of the casino game. There is less and less doubt about 'what has to be done', what the path really is, what is nama and what is rupa now. There is less and less inclination to follow any kinds of rituals in this regard (Lisa: rituals do NOT include having a special spot for putting door keys LOL), and more and more inclination to see the value in listening/reading/considering good reminders, no matter how busy we are in life. We can test out that awareness really can develop anytime, any place without any restrictions at all -- even if sedated by medicines or swimming in the sea (Htoo:-)). .... S: In other posts you refer to adhisila sikkha, adhicitta sikkha and adhipanna sikkha and quote from the Vism. I hope you don't mind me reflecting a little more out loud. These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. Just my comments. I look forward to more of yours, Sukin's or anyone else's. Metta, Sarah =========== 45080 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 3:01am Subject: the 44's are up :-/ sarahprocter... Connie once gave me permission to f/w any of her off-list puzzles at my discretion -- so here's one in need of decoding, with my efforts interspersed ====================================================== Connie: >hi, you two, ... S: I guess Jon is included .... Connie: >the 44's are up and I owe you an apology. ... S: that must mean that Connie has patiently and very diligently backed up all the posts 44,000 - 44,999 and put them on the back-up site which just she and Jon hold the keys to: www.dhammastudygroup.org What a really great help and what on earth can she be apologising about? .... Connie:> A flaming keyboard did show up my island the other day when I'd taken vol 1 of Dispeller over to my friend's place to read, but instead of writing you, I used the fire as an excuse to pay more attention to trying to control my breathing and other elements. Had to laugh when the smoke cleared out and the book was still lying open to birthday reminders: .... S: Did she have a birthday too?:-/, did her computer catch fire?:-/ Dispeller of Delusion, the commentary to the Vibhanga (2nd Abhidhamma text) which we sent her to thank and encourage her:-). So what's the apology for....the computer fire, trying to control her breathing or, I know, sending us the following reminders a few days after the smoke cleared!! .... Connie:> "With leadenness in all one's limbs, with all one's faculties declining, With vanishing of youthfulness, with undermining of one's strength, With loss of memory, and so on, with growing unattractiveness To one's own wife and family, and then with dotage coming on, The pain that mortals undergo, alike of body and of mind - Since ageing causes all of this, old age is thus called suffering". .... S: That sounds like us....:-). Thanks, Connie girl. .... Connie:> peace, connie anyway, the 44's are up now and I'm .... S: And that's it... lost in mid-sentence and maybe we'll never know what was going to follow 'I'm....' - maybe the loss of memory is contagious. Metta, Sarah ========== 45081 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Clever Investment ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Cause & Effect: Action & Reward: Giving Food, one gives and later gets Strength! Giving Clothes, one gives and later gets Beauty! Giving Medicine, one gives and later gets Health! Giving Shelter, one gives and later gets Protection! Giving Transport, one gives & later gets Swift Ease! Giving Lamps, one gives & later gets Light and Sight! Giving Learning, one gives and later gets Intelligence! Giving True Dhamma, one gives & later gets Deathlessness! Thus this gift of True Dhamma exceeds all other gifts... Generosity, combining goodwill & letting go, is 1st perfection! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45082 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 3:50am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Htoo, I am glad you follow the Buddha raher than a modern teacher. But twice recently you mention Mahasi and Pa Auk in the same sentence This is one case: ""Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar?"" I only recognize Ledi , Pa Auk and Mahasi. Since Mahasi school and Pa Auk are now writing books criticising each others methods we might assume at least one of them has something wrong. I look forward to your comments on Mahasi. robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Rob K, Thanks for your reply. I just mentioned these names as they are teaching to their disciples. I do not need to attach to any of these names. I do not say there are 2 methods and if one is right, the other must be wrong. But as far as I know, I could not find any fault or flaw in Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing. May I ask you a question? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? With Metta, Htoo Naing 45083 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most of your reply and comment only on a few points: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. Sarah will be happy as we both snip. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: You will have to explain this reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am lazy to read it again as it is not fruitful. The discussions are at TeachingsOfBuddha and messages are round about 1500. In a message, there is a link to that site. I think the title is 'Three Cheers of Tanha'. The westerner writer accused that Theravadii invent a word called chanda. He seems to believe that it is the same with tanha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The main conditions are hearing the Dhamma, considering it correctly and deeply and applying it correctly. The minor are things like food, health, cleanliness, bodily seclusion etc.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note on that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana > at brothels? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You do not answer directly my question. It is not a right place. I was not asking whether prostitute can or cannot become sotapanna. They become prostitutes because of kamma. But while performing their prostitute functions, I think there is no one who became a sotapanna. Would you say 'Ambhapaalii became a sotapanna while she was having sex with a man'? Or would you say 'Ambhapaalii became a sotapanna because she had heard Dhamma from The Buddha'? I do know that satipatthaana can arise at any time, and anywhere. But do not just show very very rare occasions. Otherwise many will practise as prostitutes, hunters, etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the Buddha even. Rob K: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just one case and he was Angulimaala. Killing areas are not the right place for satipatthaana even though satipatthaana may arise according to conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. =============== Rob K: Dear Htoo, This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depends. Some even did not know who is who. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be held onto and studied. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do not understand. Do you mean dhaatus, khandaas, aayaanatas cannot be studied? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by concentrating. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45084 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 6:25am Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa, Hasituppada, KenH, KenO, Sukinder, Larry, Phil, Mike, Htoo, Howard, Sarah, RobertK, etc. I really like your message # 45070, Lisa. The presentation of the famous Sayadaw is very good, but I like your remarks even more. Thank you, Lisa, for saying the same thing in my mind about some of the messages at DSG (especially those written by KenH, KenO, RobertK and Sukinder). Thank you, Lisa, for saying it all just right -- it was a right speech. It is important to notice that defilements cannot go away by themselves: you gradually wear them down when you earnestly "change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits". [Lisa] : "I have read here on DSG that to put for effort to attain paramis is a wasted effort...tightly sitting cross legged with eyes squeezed shut and forcing wisdom, insight and the virtues like dana, metta, kaurna, ect., to arise. These things should arise naturally and one cannot force them this is the message I get, and also it is almost impossible in this age for a common person to know wisdom, insight and virtues beyond just pretending. "With the idea of dependent orgination and the impersonal or indifference of anatta I see you can condition these things to arise through practice and effort. Maybe not squeezing the eyes shut tightly while sitting cross legged for hours. But remembering through the day how behavior is conditioned and if it is it can be changed through effort and discipline. "Through remembering sati, all through the day the flow of dependent orgination, that is the body mind is in flux I can change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits. [endquote] Respectfully yours, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hello Tep (Nina, Phil, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) > > ...... ..... > by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw taken from a a larger article. > > Those persons who wish to attain the Paths and the Fruits thereof in > this very life must fulfil the first eleven carana-dhamma, i.e. sila, > indriya-samvara, bhojanemattannuta, jagariyanuyoga, and the seven > saddhamma. Herein, sila means ajivatthamaka-nicca-sila (permanent> practice of morality ending with right livelihood); indriya- samvara means guarding the six sense-doors--eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind; bhojanemattanuta means taking just sufficient food to preserve the balance of the corporeality group in the body and being satisfied therewith; jagariyanuyogo means not sleeping during the day, and sleeping only during one period (of the three periods) of the night, practising bhavana (mental concentration) during the other two periods. > > Saddhamma means: 1. saddha (faith) 2. sati (mindfulness) 3. hiri (moral shame) 4. ottappa (moral dread) 5. bahusacca (great learning) > 6. viriya (energy; diligence) 7. panna (wisdom). > > Lack of moral shame is called ahirika. > > By miccha-dhamma that are likely to cause dhammantaraya is meant such views, practices and limitations as the inability to see the dangers of samsara, the belief that these are times when the Paths and the Fruits can no longer be attained, the tendency to defer effort until the parami ripen, the belief that persons of the present day are > dvi-hetuka,[38] the belief that the great teachers of the past were > nonexistent, etc. > > Even though it does not reach the ultimate, no kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is ever rendered futile. If effort be made, a kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is instrumental in > producing parami in those who do not possess parami. If no effort be > made, the opportunity to acquire parami is lost. If those whose parami > are immature put forth effort, their parami become ripe and mature. > Such persons can attain the Paths and Fruits in their next existence > within the present Sasana. If no effort be made, the opportunity for > the parami to riper, is lost. If those whose parami is ripe and mature > put forth effort, the Paths and the Fruits can be attained within this > life. If no effort be made the opportunity to attain the Paths and the > Fruits is lost. > . .... ..... ..... > > With Metta, > Lisa > 45085 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 6:52am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Dear Wise Sarah {Attn: Nina, Sukinder, KenH, KenO, RobertK, Htoo, Phil, Lisa, etc.} Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. Sarah :Did you mean: a) There really is something *we* can do? b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing conditioned dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled by any decision-making. S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is any self involved. Do we agree here? ... Tep: Yes, Sarah, we do. And by agreeing here, it means my answer to your multiple-choice question above is b). This must be your answer too. S: OK, I'm glad there's no disagreement and again I sincerely apologise if I misinterpreted your comments, Tep. so we both agree that any such striving or endeavour are conditioned dhammas and that there never has been any self and there never will be, however much ignorance and wrong view there may be. When it comes to the practice, from the very beginning, the understanding and effort have to be 'right' without any idea of a self making decisions or striving. T: I admire the way you elaborated about atta/anatta very clearly, Sarah. This dialogue should be helpful for anyone who used to have doubts on the ' not self', 'no self' idea. S: Thanks for all your other great posts which certainly help raise many important aspects of the teachings. Please don't mind if some of us seem particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere and everyone will appreciate it. T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " Respectfully and sincerely yours, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > <...> > > > T: So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? > > ... > > S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – > <..> > > T: You're right ! I have asked you to select one of the three choices. > > > > So, of course, there is a view of " *us*, *doing* and *something*". But > > > > how can you avoid that? > ... > S: I was probably just being 'difficult' for which I apologise. My point > was just the one that was made recently in one of the extracts from > 'Cetasikas': > > "We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we > can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own > condtions." > > S: The same applies, I think, to making choices, decisions and so on. We > think that if there is more understanding of conditioned dhammas we'll no > longer be able to function normally or make decisions, but of course this > is quite wrong and you weren't suggesting it. > > Perhaps I should have simply asked you in your question what you meant > when you wrote the following: 'what do you think we the worldling > followers should do?'. (... ... ... ... ... ...) > > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 45086 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 7:13am Subject: Well said, Sarah! [was Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self,..] buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - The more I read your posts these days, the more I like them. Your elaboration of the Dhamma and writing skills are fast approaching Nina's !! It may take me several more lifetimes to be able to do that, Sarah. S: > These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. > > So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to > the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. > > We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. > T: Very well said, Sarah, very well said! Your effort of earnestly studying and penetrating the Suttas is paying you dividends now! Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > [ snipped ] > > S: > I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until > > it is eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any development of right view in the meantime. > > > > > > .... > S: In other posts you refer to adhisila sikkha, adhicitta sikkha and > adhipanna sikkha and quote from the Vism. I hope you don't mind me > reflecting a little more out loud. > > These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), > higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom > (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta > when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either > refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. > > So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to > the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. > > We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. > > Just my comments. I look forward to more of yours, Sukin's or anyone > else's. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== 45087 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Robert K, I did not find this. Apology for delay. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K wrote: Dear Htoo, When I was at a temple in thailand in the late 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous)home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of > pilgrimage and having heard about ... snip ... snip ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have read the whole lot of this post when you wrote to other member. I may be wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K: Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So because of this should anyone not do patipatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K: This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry, I do not understand. I could not find a verb. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that is important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean 'anatta' is to be taught and not to be realized through bhaavanaa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Instead this monk had been indicated by his teachers that he was at this and that stage of insight. He in turn had told (or hinted) to his students they were at this or that stage of insight: but now he found out he was taking unusual experiences that happen due to strong concentration as stages of insight. On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. Khun sujin explained to me that even at the first stage of insight where nama is distingushed from rupa the whole world is turned over. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just a flickering of light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti-lakkhana. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Seeing of tilakkhana will depend on individual's perfection. When it is the right time, tilakkhana is seen instantaneously. With respect, Htoo Naing 45088 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (342) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' I repeat these frequently so that these kamma will be familiar with. Garuka kamma are heavy kamma. There are bad kamma which are also garuka kamma. These bad kamma are so heavy that other good kamma cannot overwhelm it. Example kamma are anantaariya kamma. Killing of own father, killing of own mother, killing of arahats, division of sangha, brusing to The Live Buddha are all heavy kamma and they are called anantaariya kamma. All these kamma are garuka kamma. Example being in The Buddha time is 'Devadattha'. He first attained all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas. And he also obtained many of jhana power like 'iddhividdha' or 'creation of beings as he wishes'. But later in his life, he did several irreversible kamma like bruising to The Live Buddha while he tried to kill The Buddha so that he thought he might become the chief in the sangha. And he did division of the sangha just before he died. As these kamma are anantaariya kamma, all his jhaana powers disappeared. And he had to die in despair without ever seeing The Buddha again when he regreted all his sin. That bad garuka kamma drew him down to avici- niraya or hell realm, where there is no pause of suffering pain. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. DT reaches number 376. 45089 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:09am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Robert K: > > Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when > conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > So because of this > > should anyone not do patipatti? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, Why do you ask that? Or do you mean that patipatti is only when someone is siting down crosslegged or trying to concentrate, or walking slowly? Do you understand that patipatti is any moment of direct insight into a dhamma? It can't be known by looking at someone whether they have patipatti or not. --- > Robert K: > > This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Sorry, I do not understand. I could not find a verb. > --------------------------------------------------------- You said in the post: Htoo: > > This is the matter of teachers to check their students ------------- > Rob K: > > It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so > that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that > is important. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Do you mean 'anatta' is to be taught and not to be realized through > bhaavanaa? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- You seem to to be implying that bhavana is some special activity, different from normal life. Or that while listening to a profound talk on anatta one is not doing patipatti? But true bhavana and patipatti is whenever a genuine moment of insight into a paramattha dhamma occurs. How is insight (or higher stages) developed: From the digha nikaya Sangiti sutta "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: "Here a monk teaches a monk Dhamma and as he gains agrasp of the teaaching joy arises..and at this his mind established" (he attains nibbana). Is this monk doing bhavana or patipatti while he listens? > > On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus > on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. > > > The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is > understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti- lakkhana. > > Robertk > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Seeing of tilakkhana will depend on individual's perfection. When it > is the right time, tilakkhana is seen instantaneously. Dear Htoo: you asked > > So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? ================================== So are we agreed that feeling sensations in the body not the stage of insight into anicca? Robertk 45090 From: connie Date: Tue May 3, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: 44's up nichiconn dear Sarah, Jon, All, there was nothing cryptic intended... just that the archives are updated & birthday greetings. I remembered saying I'd take my nose out of the book long enough to write when a keyboard washed up on my desert island as I was dropping a wet rag onto the burning one & that struck me as being rather funny at the time. So did my friend's screaming and running out of the house, but considering she wouldn't even be buying this one if her old one hadn't burnt to the ground, perhaps all those people who've suggested that my sense of humour isn't quite what it should be have a point. Anyway, seems whatever I'd been trying to fight off the few days before that took advantage of the situation and I've been sicker than a dog since, so fever is my excuse for any more than usual lack of sense. peace, connie on the way back to bed 45091 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. buddhistmedi... Dear Friends Robert K and Htoo - I can understand why breathing medition is said to be "easy" by some, and would like to give a brief comment. > Htoo: > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati is easy'? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: May I remind you both that there are 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati discourse (MN 118)? The first tetrad, ending at 'He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath), and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication', is known as "breathing meditation" for some people (who, perhaps, did not carefully study MN 118). Moreover, breathing alone is very useful for calming mind from fear (for example, stage fright), anger (slowly breathing in and out can significantly reduce one's anger), and for reducing wandering thoughts (e.g. when taking a test, or when you want concentration on a job at hand). This latter application of breathing "meditation" is indeed easy. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most > of your reply and comment only on a few points: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is fine. Sarah will be happy as we both snip. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45092 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Rob K, > > Thanks for your reply. I just mentioned these names as they are > teaching to their disciples. I do not need to attach to any of these > names. > > I do not say there are 2 methods and if one is right, the other must > be > wrong. But as far as I know, I could not find any fault or flaw in > Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing. > > May I ask you a question? > > Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk 45093 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > > Htoo: > > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana > > at brothels? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > You do not answer directly my question. ============ Dear Htoo, I wrote 'Anytime' and that includes while at a brothel. . ============================= > > It is not a right place. > > I was not asking whether prostitute can or cannot become sotapanna. > > > > satipatthaana can arise at any time, and anywhere. But do not just > show very very rare occasions. Otherwise many will practise as > prostitutes, hunters, etc etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ We do a disservice to the Dhamma, if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.-Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it. I was looking for links to my website (abhidhamma.org) and put Ninas name into a search engine a few years ago. One site was an interview with a European porno star who said his current favourite book was Nina's Buddhism in daily life. I just looked now but couldn't find teh link. If he keeps contemplating Dhamma, and develops more he might find that relections and insights on Dhamma come up at inconvenient times . Because if it becomes a habit no one can stop it arising. > Rob K: > > There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the > Buddha even. > > Rob K: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is just one case and he was Angulimaala. Killing areas are not > the right place for satipatthaana even though satipatthaana may arise > according to conditions. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha taught Dhamma and they attained. =============== > > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. > =============== > Rob K: > > Dear Htoo, > > This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a > hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: This depends. Some even did not know who is who. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas > or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be > held onto and studied. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Do not understand. Do you mean dhaatus, khandaas, aayaanatas > cannot be studied? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- I mean in a split second millions of khandhas have arisen and passed away. When we try to focus on one it is long gone. Thus the type of samadhi that comes with insight is subtle and not like usual ideas of concentraing. ----- > Rob K: > > So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with > detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path > gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but > rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by > concentrating. > RobertK > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. > This special concentration comes with detachment, it comes with panna. Robertk 45094 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply buddhistmedi... Dear Sukinder and other interested DSG members - Sukinder: >Why would you call this panna? Even Einstein's coming upon the >Theory of Relativity and formulating e=mc2 does not >involve panna. I think panna is specific in knowing at least >in theory, the law of kamma, the nature of nama and rupa. >And through experience the undesirability of akusala and >the good in kusala and the need to develop this. In other words, >panna must be accompanied by sati, saddha and many other >wholesome cetasikas. Tep: Thank you for correcting me about the Abhidhamma definition of panna. Now that I have studied more, I would like to make a few comments. Tep: My understanding of "panna" was connected to the deep Thai root, it was not built upon the Abhidhamma definition. You know, the word panna is a common word in Thai. To the non-Abhidhammikas in Thailand panna means the capability to know, learn and understand anything, while vinnana or citta is the nature that knows, or the "knower". So criminals can have "panna" in that sense. -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Let me continue the discussion of your message # 45039 in my next post, soon. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep, (Htoo*) > > ============================= > Tep: > Now, let me make up two lists of items in your message # 44929; the > first one consists of your agreeable remarks, and the second list is for > the disageeable remarks. Then my response follows. > (snipped) > Panna (understanding) knows, while sila and samadhi support panna all the way from the puthujjana level until the lokuttara level. We need panna to guide all activities (talking, writing, etc.) even for babies, and there are several levels of panna. For example, a criminal uses his panna to steal, rob, cheat, and kill others (for money). But we don't want that panna, do we? > 45095 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] kelvin_lwin Hi Lisa and Tep, Lisa, you're stealing my favorite quotation source :P Just remember he's a controversial figure :) Tep, I'm following everything and keeping up with the reading. But I did scrap a few posts due to time and lack of proper mindset. - kel 45096 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Climax of Calm ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Quenched Dimension: Peaceful, smokeless, wishless, tamed, and harmless, unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, unconcerned with both past and future, clean, aloof, imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being enters the final state: The cooling of all craving, The stilling of all construction, The releasing of all the clinging, The relinquishing of all acquisition, Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, Formless, senseless & deathless, Silent, free, blissful, pure peace, Nibbâna... Yeah !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45097 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) gazita2002 Hello Sarah and other friends, I understand birthday greetings are in order - but I'm unsure whether its you or Jon - anyway, I'll send wishes to both of you and then that covers it for this year :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > Even though we are only starting to develop the Path events in > our life can remind us to be aware now, just as they reminded the > Buddha's disciples. At times we may have doubts about the benefit > of sati, or it may happen that we are absorbed by our work or our > circle of friends, or we may be infatuated by all the pleasant > things of life, without mindfulness of such moments. > > Although we know in theory that any reality can be object of mindfulness, > there may be a long period of sluggishness in our life. However, a > painful event such as the loss of someone who is dear to us may > remind us of the true nature of reality; this can become our > "goad" which stirs us. > > If we truly see that even one moment of right understanding is beneficial > we will have courage to continue with the development of satipaììhåna and > then there is right effort which arises because of its own conditions. We > can come to understand that life without the development of right > understanding is utterly meaningless. > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: its amazing how quickly clinging comes in and wants more when there is a moment of understanding, no matter how weak that understanding may be; and there can be another moment of U. to see lobha for what it really is, however in my case that generally doesn't happen and - so what? its all outa control anyway. BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, would be greatly appreciated. I remember asking a question about them in the Jetavanna Grove in India, but at that stage I really didn't know why I was asking, as I knew nothing about them. I know they are stages of development and now want to know more. Thanks, Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 45098 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder sukinderpal Dear Htoo and all, I have little time, but if I don't respond now, I may have to wait till next week. I intended to do a bit of research into the section you quoted and the `anapana pabba', but being really very bad at doing such things, I have simply chosen to cut and paste the section from some website and will read it and respond when I come to that part in my post. I also tried to look up the U.P. to locate any past discussions, but could not find it. So I apologize if to some extent I am throwing the ball back to you to do the work of translating the pali, my own pali being almost nil. I will snip away the less relevant sections. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are people who go to retreats of different traditions and > some did not satisfy. I had an example case. Once one approached a > teacher and learned from the teacher. That one said, 'the results > were good' but later said again that 'the results are not the same > when compared with the teachings in the text in the form of sutta. > And finally the one left the teacher. Why I said 'all are good' is > that there does exist 'goodness'. I do know that there are many > conditions. But the goodness does exist and does reside in each > tradition. I said this because I looked under the microscope of > abhidhamma and each tradition does have goodness. //Sukinder> Even you have on occasions directly pointed out what you believe to be wrong view in other's idea of practice. I believe there is good even in the Christian teachings and Mahayana, but I wouldn't praise them, because they lead people more into samsara than away. In the same way, even if some Buddhist teachers refer to the Tipitaka, if their understanding is wrong and consequently they mislead others, then I may acknowledge some good, but I wouldn't approve of them. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: My source is in > the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she > simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the > followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. > But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let > you know and bring it here up. //Sukinder> You mean all of us interpret her wrongly and you don't? Or in fact this is your indirect and polite way of saying that you think she is wrong ;-). But never mind, we can leave K. Sujin out, after all in the end we all have to rely on our own panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > > No I mean patipatti, as in satipatthana. I think for most of us, most > of the time, any understanding is only on the `thinking' level. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are 3 panna. Sutaamaya, cintaamaya and bhavanaamaya > panna. Without bhaavanaa there is no way to realize Dhamma. Without > bhaavana, all understanding will be just memories of what other > taught and own logical thinking and the results of thinking. //Sukinder> No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, and this has already conditioned as sankhara. Sanna is sanna, and yes, with the loss of memory, one has to hear the Teachings again. However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done often with lobha. However, even here it does not necessarily follow that because it is still on the conceptual level, that it can't be interspersed with genuine understanding. ---------------------------------------- Htoo continued: > But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead > to 'rituals'. //Sukinder> When the pariyatti is right, then correct patipatti must follow. The problem is that because the theory is not understood properly, that the choice seems to be between "doing" patipatti and not doing it. One refers to `intention' and `activity' rather than to citta and cetasikas arisen from complex set of conditions. This to me indicates a strong attachment to self and the need for `control'. :-/ ------------------------------------ Htoo: > That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just > say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or > anything like that. //Sukinder> Yes, and agreed. But still there can be pariyatti without patipatti, but not the other way round. Do you get my hint ;-)? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > And here you are saying that those who meditate, that they experience > patipatti? In other words you are certain that these `conventional > entities' involved in `conventional activities' are experiencing > the `dhamma' patipatti? You judged this simply by virtue of what they > say they do, i.e. meditate? Or do you understand this from what they > have written about dhamma? > Do they ever write about the dhammas arising and falling in the > moment? Or do they mostly talk about what they "do"? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of > kickstart. //Sukinder> Please explain. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. > > Sukinder: > And these are simply `conditioned dhammas', do you agree? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just names and label. Pariyatti is learning, giving facts, > taking facts. Patipatti is going over the fact. Pativedha is > absorption of facts. The three words are not the same heading. Please > note 'pari' and 'pati'. Pari here is related to parikamma or > preparatory actions. Teachings-wise there is no such distinction. But > implication-wise they are labeled separately. So all 3 words are just > names. Teachings is teachings. //Sukinder> Are you saying that behind the convention and labels there is no specific dhamma which these refer to? Hope I have not misunderstood you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > If on identifying the thin line it causes us to agree on this > important point of `study and practice', then I will rejoice :-). But > I don't picture myself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Good to discuss. But again there arises a thin layer again. I > say this because you said you don't picture yourself `sitting down to > meditate. ;-) //Sukinder> :-)) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. > Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to > say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) //Sukinder> I know that the arahat is Asekha, but my question is not if he `needs' to learn any more, but whether he would say "no" to it. All the arahats still listened to the Buddha and each other, no? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of > satipatthana as rituals. //Sukinder> No, I am saying that what is passed on as the development of satipatthana is not, but a ritual. Satipatthana is a mind moment where there is no person doing anything, so no reference to activity, hence not ritual. To be clear, even reading and listening can and often be a ritual, this is when there is identification with the activity and an idea that this is "what one should do". However, pariyatti, i.e. at the moment when there is *understanding* of the Teachings, that in fact is a movement away from ritualistic behaviour. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing > the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise > by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a > conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to > experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I sensed was that this is just over logification by using > abhidhamma knowledge. > 1. Sarah denied. > 2. Amara bitterly denied > 3. You denied > that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to > arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the > final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. //Sukinder> ?? Are you saying that this theoretical understanding is wrong? I agree that logic can be used to give weight to one's position. But you seem to be saying that we are all using only logic. Anyway, please point out if the theory is wrong and how it does not match with reality. ---------------------------------------- Htoo continued: > You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to > arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. > Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking > about training. //Sukinder> And here you are so "sure" that both of them "understand" and Sarah, Amara and I use only reason and logic? Are you basing this on what they say they `do' and what we say we `don't' do? ;-) Let us talk about `training', what is this according to your understanding? --------------------------------------- Htoo: > In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached The > Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha > compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under > the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) //Sukinder> To those who did have the accumulations and habit to sit down and meditate. To them the Buddha gave the meditation subject best suited to their accumulations which only he could have known. Obviously the Buddha knew them better than that knew themselves, so no surprise here. But even if he knew your, Tep's or my accumulations, do you think that would be enough? I think this condition is only a small fraction compared to the main deciding one, i.e. one's own accumulated panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever > level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully > matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no > sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? //Sukinder> Not only weak moments of sati and panna, but no sati and panna at all most of the time, is what we will experience for countless lives to come. As I hinted above, only the correct intellectual understanding will lead to the correct practice. If indeed the pariyatti is wrong, then there can't be patipatti at all. So the question is not that I don't allow for beginning stages of development and in the process label `matured stage' as also being ritualistic. What I object to is "wrong view", and this is in the very idea of "doing". So to be blunt, I don't think there can be any development of panna at all, so any so called `matured stage' is just a product of imagination. As Robert has said about the arrow being slightly out of angle, I think it becomes harder and harder to correct if we become more and more attached to any idea of formalized practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an > idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is > ritual. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional > sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is > extracted by DSG people. //Sukinder> Not from there, but here, the understanding of modern 20th /21st century Buddhists. From those who do not realize that all dhamma is in this very moment and who therefore don't see wrong view for what it is. They then wrongly see the practice as `doing what the Buddha's disciples did'. Or they theorize about `concentration', `calm', `effort' and so on, and with the full force of sakya ditthi picture themselves as doing this or that to in order that such abstracted ideas will actualized in experience into yet another idea of `enlightenment'. This is living in the head. So in my opinion, even some famous so called meditators are in fact only `theorists' and `abstract thinkers', even though they label themselves as `practitioners'. I think one advantage some of us here have who are said to be `theoretical', is that we acknowledge it and to a good extent know the difference between `theory and practice'. Those who don't in experience know this, are driven instead by an idea and don't realize that they then fall prey to this idea. But actually at the root of this is Ditthi. This is really hard to see. I will send this off now and will respond to the rest of your post later. Sorry to have been somewhat strong today. Metta, Sukinder 45099 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing Dear Rob K, Thanks for your kind reply and thorough explanation on Dhamma. Tep thinks our dialogue is entertaining. I mean Dhamma-entertainment. In this reply, I agree with all you said. Just a question, below. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha taught Dhamma and they attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My question is 'which sutta say this story?'. When I wrote on 'metta' and 'The Buddha', Christine said that she did not know this story. The story was that 'Devadattha hired skilled archers. 1st archer was to kill The Buddha. 2nd and 3rd archers were to kill the 1st. And then 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th were hired to kill 2nd and 3rd and this went up to a total of 31 archers. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =============== > > Rob K: > > > > So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with > > detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path > > gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but > > rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean > by > > concentrating. > > RobertK > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. > > > This special concentration comes with detachment, it comes with > panna. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. With respect, Htoo Naing 45100 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, May I ask you a question? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? With Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Rob K, I do have a very special reason for asking this question. The Buddha just said 'when bhikkhu breathes in long, he knows he breathes in long'. May I ask another time? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air' 'note nose, mouth, lip' etc in mahaasatipatthaana sutta? With respect, Htoo Naing 45101 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Robert K: > > Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when > > conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. So are we agreed that feeling sensations in the body not the stage of insight into anicca? RobertK -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your reply. I think we agree. ;-) With respect, Htoo Naing 45102 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob K, > > Thanks for your kind reply and thorough explanation on Dhamma. Tep > thinks our dialogue is entertaining. I mean Dhamma-entertainment. > > In this reply, I agree with all you said. Just a question, below. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > Rob K: > > There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the > Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha > taught Dhamma and they attained. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > My question is 'which sutta say this story?'. > > When I wrote on 'metta' and 'The Buddha', Christine said that she did > not know this story. > > The story was that 'Devadattha hired skilled archers. 1st archer was > to kill The Buddha. 2nd and 3rd archers were to kill the 1st. And > then 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th were hired to kill 2nd and 3rd and this > went up to a total of 31 archers. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing >Dear Htoo, A good thing to clarify references so I appreciate your question. This story is authentic and told several times . Once in the Vinaya pitaka but I couldn't find the reference yet. The other in the Dhammapada commentary to verse 17. I also think it is in the jataka Commentary where there is a story about the wild elpehant Nalgiri. I found a quote supporting my earlier comment:"We do a disservice if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.-Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it" Ledi Sayadaw "in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death.""http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm robertk 45103 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo and all, > Htoo: > My source is in > > the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she > > simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the > > followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. > > But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let > > you know and bring it here up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: You mean all of us interpret her wrongly and you don't? Or in fact this is your indirect and polite way of saying that you think she is wrong ;-). But never mind, we can leave K. Sujin out, after all in the end we all have to rely on our own panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not say K Sujin is wrong or was wrong. And I do not say you all interpret her message in the wrong way. As I said, when I re-discover the message, I will post it here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I say not all, there are some. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45104 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 3:54am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 183 - Enthusiasm/piiti (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm( piiti] Píti, translated as enthusiasm, zest or rapture, is another cetasika among the six “particulars” which arise with cittas of the four jåtis but not with every citta. Píti can be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. When we think of enthusiasm we presume that it is always kusala. We praise people who are enthusiastic. However, when we study the Abhidhamma we learn that enthusiasm is not always kusala, that it arises also with akusala cittas. There are many more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas and thus, when there is enthusiasm it is more often akusala than kusala. Don’t we often take for kusala what is in fact akusala ? Through the study of the Abhidhamma we will have more understanding of kusala and akusala and of the different conditions for their arising. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) gives the following definition of píti: * "…It refreshes (píùayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is happiness (píti)(1). It has the characteristic of satisfaction(2)(sampiyåyana). Its function is to refresh the body and the mind; or its function is to pervade (thrill with rapture). It is manifested as elation…" * The Atthasåliní ( I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 115) gives a similar definition of píti(3). *** 1) Píùayati is the causative of píùeti which means: to gladden, please, satisfy or invigorate. 2) The English translation uses here: endearment. 3) See also Dhammasangaùi §9. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45105 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:03am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo and all, I have little time, but if I don't respond now, I may have to wait till next week. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I also do not have much time. I may be off for months. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I intended to do a bit of research into the section you quoted and the `anapana pabba', but being really very bad at doing such things, I have simply chosen to cut and paste the section from some website and will read it and respond when I come to that part in my post. I also tried to look up the U.P. to locate any past discussions, but could not find it. So I apologize if to some extent I am throwing the ball back to you to do the work of translating the pali, my own pali being almost nil. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The same applies to me. I am not good at Paali. I am still learning. I had been kicked as I seemed not know mettena and metta. Smile to Christine,:-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin:I will snip away the less relevant sections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This has to be done. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Even you have on occasions directly pointed out what you believe to be wrong view in other's idea of practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I think you misinterpreted what I said. What I said was not 'other's idea was wrong but he or she did not go to the end of the world'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I believe there is good even in the Christian teachings and Mahayana, but I wouldn't praise them, because they lead people more into samsara than away. In the same way, even if some Buddhist teachers refer to the Tipitaka, if their understanding is wrong and consequently they mislead others, then I may acknowledge some good, but I wouldn't approve of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense as you sensed, I think. OK. I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So, you divide there are very weak and strong. Pariyatti is very weak according to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: and this has already conditioned as sankhara. Sanna is sanna, and yes, with the loss of memory, one has to hear the Teachings again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the point where I would like to stress. If there is not real panna, just knowledge is not panna. They are just memories and when these memories are gone, everything will be gone. One may say, 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati know directly etc etc'. But when the memories are lost then the stored knowledge of that 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati know directly etc etc' will also be lost. At that time, as you said, one will have to re-learn again. But as the brain is severely attacked by disease new learning may not be possible. Knowledge is knowledge. Panna is panna. As long as one does not have panna, other's discoveries are not his or her own. Because he or she has not yet seen with his or her own wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done often with lobha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now that you see, I will leave this part. Extra facts. We need to differentiate between 1. piti 2. mudita 3. lobha 4. chanda ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo continued: > But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead > to 'rituals'. Sukinder: When the pariyatti is right, then correct patipatti must follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you divide there are 2 parts. What I believe is that there is only 'one and a single teachings'. 3 things are just different forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The problem is that because the theory is not understood properly, that the choice seems to be between "doing" patipatti and not doing it. One refers to `intention' and `activity' rather than to citta and cetasikas arisen from complex set of conditions. This to me indicates a strong attachment to self and the need for `control'. :-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think that Tep will agree this. From the paramattha-language there is no control. But one has to refrain from bad things and has to develop sati and panna. Just read and think it over and waiting for the right time is not that good idea. Otherwise, if I have to say with paramattha-language, there may arise detering conditions and then one may be drawn down to unhappy destinations. Before this might happen, one has to strive to attain at least sotapanship. Whether you say it 'control' or not, one should strive diligently. The Buddha said 'Meditate Ananda, meditate, meditate. Otherwise, you will regret.' Meditate Cunda, meditate, meditate. Otherwise, you will regret. Once one goes to unhappy destination, he or she will not be able to control as in this current life situation. I do know that there is no control at all. But ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just > > say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or > > anything like that. Sukinder: Yes, and agreed. But still there can be pariyatti without patipatti, but not the other way round. Do you get my hint ;-)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of > > kickstart. Sukinder: Please explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Explain like a 6-year-old kid? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teachings is teachings. Sukinder: Are you saying that behind the convention and labels there is no specific dhamma which these refer to? Hope I have not misunderstood you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend how one deep understand them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. > Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to > say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) Sukinder: I know that the arahat is Asekha, but my question is not if he `needs' to learn any more, but whether he would say "no" to it. All the arahats still listened to the Buddha and each other, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pannatti and paramattha. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of > satipatthana as rituals. Sukinder: No, I am saying that what is passed on as the development of satipatthana is not, but a ritual. Satipatthana is a mind moment where there is no person doing anything, so no reference to activity, hence not ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note on it. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: To be clear, even reading and listening can and often be a ritual, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further up. First practice. Now learning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: this is when there is identification with the activity and an idea that this is "what one should do". However, pariyatti, i.e. at the moment when there is *understanding* of the Teachings, that in fact is a movement away from ritualistic behaviour. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I seem to understand. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing > the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise > by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a > conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to > experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I sensed was that this is just over logification by using > abhidhamma knowledge. > 1. Sarah denied. > 2. Amara bitterly denied > 3. You denied > that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to > > arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the > > final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. Sukinder: ?? Are you saying that this theoretical understanding is wrong? I agree that logic can be used to give weight to one's position. But you seem to be saying that we are all using only logic. Anyway, please point out if the theory is wrong and how it does not match with reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I am a beginner I do not know much. But mahaasatipatthaana sutta, which is The Buddha's teaching definitely say that 'go to a forest or sit under a tree or sit in an unoccupied place and sit in with straight body'. But what I frequently hear is that 'this is ritual'. So is the teaching of The Buddha ritual? I do know citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatti as described in abhidhammatthasangaha. No one can create sati. No one can create panna. But what I frequently hear is 'ritual' 'ritual' ritual'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo continued: > You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to > arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. > Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking > about training. Sukinder: And here you are so "sure" that both of them "understand" and Sarah, Amara and I use only reason and logic? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The answer will be in the answer of the above question. Tep does love The Buddha's teachings. He learned many suttas. I do not know whether you all (3) are using logic. But I would like to ask you here (2). Dis The Buddha teach ritual? Mahaasatipatthaana does say, 'go to forest or sit under a tree or sit in an unoccupied place with straight upper body..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached > The > Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha > compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under > the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) Sukinder: To those who did have the accumulations and habit to sit down and meditate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: To them the Buddha gave the meditation subject best suited to their accumulations which only he could have known. Obviously the Buddha knew them better than that knew themselves, so no surprise here. But even if he knew your, Tep's or my accumulations, do you think that would be enough? I think this condition is only a small fraction compared to the main deciding one, i.e. one's own accumulated panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever > level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Accumulations? Level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully > matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no > sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? Sukinder: Not only weak moments of sati and panna, but no sati and panna at all most of the time, is what we will experience for countless lives to come. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am asking 'should it be accused as ritual?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I hinted above, only the correct intellectual understanding will lead to the correct practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So intelligent people like you, Amara, and Sarah can rightly know and lead to the correct practice? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If indeed the pariyatti is wrong, then there can't be patipatti at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is only one and a single 'teachings of The Buddha'. 3 are just forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So the question is not that I don't allow for beginning stages of development and in the process label `matured stage' as also being ritualistic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What I object to is "wrong view", and this is in the very idea of "doing". So to be blunt, I don't think there can be any development of panna at all, so any so called `matured stage' is just a product of imagination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As Robert has said about the arrow being slightly out of angle, I think it becomes harder and harder to correct if we become more and more attached to any idea of formalized practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So 'Sine theta has to be zero-log'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukinder: > As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an > idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is > ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Chick and egg again. Is 'bhikkhu' the word in The Buddha's teaching in mahaasatipatthaana is a self doing ritual? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional > sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is > extracted by DSG people. Sukinder: Not from there, but here, the understanding of modern 20th /21st century Buddhists. From those who do not realize that all dhamma is in this very moment and who therefore don't see wrong view for what it is. They then wrongly see the practice as `doing what the Buddha's disciples did'. Or they theorize about `concentration', `calm', `effort' and so on, and with the full force of sakya ditthi picture themselves as doing this or that to in order that such abstracted ideas will actualized in experience into yet another idea of `enlightenment'. This is living in the head. So in my opinion, even some famous so called meditators are in fact only `theorists' and `abstract thinkers', even though they label themselves as `practitioners'. I think one advantage some of us here have who are said to be `theoretical', is that we acknowledge it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you acknowledge it that you all are theoretical. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: and to a good extent know the difference between `theory and practice'. Those who don't in experience know this, are driven instead by an idea and don't realize that they then fall prey to this idea. But actually at the root of this is Ditthi. This is really hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was sorry when I reminded that 'sakkaaya tiger is approaching', some accepted that tiger and even invited into their house and let it to eat them. Hmmm... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I will send this off now and will respond to the rest of your post later. Sorry to have been somewhat strong today. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) No need to apologise, Sukin. Even I might have been very strong in our discussions. But I do not have any personnel memory. The only thing that we should care is 'to understand Dhamma'. With much much respect, Htoo Naing 45106 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:14am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, A good thing to clarify references so I appreciate your question. This story is authentic and told several times . Once in the Vinaya pitaka but I couldn't find the reference yet. The other in the Dhammapada commentary to verse 17. I also think it is in the jataka Commentary where there is a story about the wild elpehant Nalgiri. I found a quote supporting my earlier comment:"We do a disservice if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.- Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it" Ledi Sayadaw "in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death.""http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob K, Thanks for your reference. Christine will be happy. It is in Dhammapada verse 17, is it? When I said about metta, I talked on archers, Naahlaagiiri, Nandamaataa Uttaraa & Siirimaa, who was a sister of Jiivaka. There is a story. I do not know is it a make-up or from jaataka. There are 2 brother fishermen. Once they decided to do meritorious deed. But for livelihood they could not miss a day. So elder went to a monastry and did good deed while younger brother did fishing. Their mindfulness were not in the straight way. The elder was developing akusala while the younger brother was developing kusala while fishing. I just mean 'moment of kusala'. So I do agree that satipatthaana can arise at any time, anywhere. Dhamma is for everyone. The Buddha did preach Dhamma to king Ajaatasattu. With respect, Htoo Naing 45107 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (343) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' If there is no garuka kamma in a life, then the dying being will have other kamma when they are racing near death. Among the existing kamma, if there are asanna kamma, one of those asanna kamma succeeds other kamma and it will give rise to next life rebirth as its result. Asanna kamma are kamma that have been done near death or when being approaches his final days. Because these kamma are easily recognizable for them as they were done in the period of their memory. If there is no such kamma in the final days, then there will be many of kamma in the current life which deserve giving rise to next life rebirth. As there are no garuka kamma and no asanna kamma, then the existing kamma in the current life, which are regularly practised come out near death. Among them one of kamma wins the others and it gives rise to next life rebirth consciousness. Sometimes, there are no specific kamma that may give rise to rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta. At that time there will arise katattaa kamma. These are olden kamma that were not committed in the current life but in other past lives of many in the whole samsara. This is about seniority of kamma. All katattaa kamma are burnt at arahatta magga kala or at the time when arahatta magga nana arises. As soon as arahatta magga citta arises, it is followed by arahatta phala cittas 2 or 3 moments. Since then all javana cittas become kiriya javana cittas in those beings who become arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45108 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, ----------------------- C: > In the first paragraph, what do you mean by "the physical bases of contact"? do you mean the sense organs? ----------------------- Sense organs (eyes, ears, tongues, etc.) are not paramattha dhammas: they are concepts. Concepts are creations of the thinking mind. Sense bases are paramattha dhammas that perform the functions we conventionally attribute to sense organs. They arise and fall away in just one moment of consciousness (less than a billionth of a second). ------------------------------- C: > What are the twenty-eight kinds of rupa? ------------------------------- I couldn't name them all. You might find them in Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" or in DSG's Useful Posts file. -------------------------------------------- C: > So, what are non absolute realties, and what is not real? -------------------------------------------- Anything that is not a paramattha dhamma is not real - it is just a concept. You can have a concept of something that is real (e.g., the actual words "paramattha-dhamma" "nama" "rupa" "citta" are concepts) or you can have a concept of something that is not absolutely real (e.g., man, woman, tree, table, flying purple elephant). --------------- KH: > > At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. ......................................... C: > How is knowing one of the namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment, a way to lose attachment and infatuation for it? ----------------- Because you see that it is just a mental or physical phenomenon that is dependent on conditions, that is extremely short lived and that is devoid of any self or entity. In that way, you know from your own direct experience that attachment to such an unsatisfactory thing would be pointless and could only lead to suffering. ---------------------------------- C: > I can see that I am getting old, it is too easy for me to get lost in trying to remember all the definitions so that I could understand what is being said. ----------------------------------- I am a good deal older than you, and I can tell you that it is not age that makes it hard to remember Abhidhamma terminology: it is simply that we don't appreciate the difference between concepts and realities. When we really appreciate that there are only dhammas we become genuinely interested in them, and remembering their names and definitions becomes second nature. --------------------------------------------------------- KH: > An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every- day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. ........................................... C: > It is interesting, after reading this post I am starting to realize that the Abidharma focuses on trying to the reader a view (i.e., wisdom) of the world, and from this view, the rest should fall into place. --------------------------------------------------------- Yes, indeed. The world is just the small number of namas and rupas that have arisen in the present moment. Anything else is concept. Concepts can seem to be very, very real, but they are just illusions created by realities. -------------------------- C: > For this view to work, morality and concentration would have to be inherent to the wisdom, or they would have to be preconditions/prerequisites. ------------------------- Exactly! The paramattha dhamma known as wisdom has the inherent quality of being morally wholesome (kusala). It relies on (and arises with) the right kind of concentration, and the right kind of concentration relies on it. But, of the two, wisdom (right understanding) is the forerunner. ------------------------------------------ KH: > > As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. ....................... C: > I hope you realize that this is just one of the paths to enlightenment? ------------------------------------------- There we disagree. I am sure that satipatthana - right understanding of conditioned dhammas - is the only way taught by the Buddha. Ken H 45109 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:19am Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - It was great to hear from you again. Lately the discussion on Anapanasati has expanded to several fronts. I need your keen obervation and knowledge to appropriately respond to these issues. You know, two heads are better than one. Respectfully, Tep. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Lisa and Tep, > > Lisa, you're stealing my favorite quotation source :P Just remember > he's a controversial figure :) > > Tep, I'm following everything and keeping up with the reading. But > I did scrap a few posts due to time and lack of proper mindset. > > - kel 45110 From: "AlanLam" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: Climax of Calm ... !!! pubbarama Dear Bhante', Hhmmmm......... These are the Piti. DANGER....Its best to be mindful, mindful of its rapid arising and disolution/ceasing (also perceived and ceased and cognized and ceased too), which is anicca, nature of Samsara that leads to Dukha. Realizing this Sangkharakanda, do stay in equanimity and dwell in Upheka, will bring phala and magga nana insight. Release, forego and let go of it, it is void and empty, that which is void and empty of a self, ego and soul, is Anatta. Who sees, who hears, who smell, who taste, who sense, who feel and who think ??? If it is all void and empty, then it is sunyata...............This is the ultimate Nibanna. May all wishes fullfilled and with Metta Karuna. Pubharama. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Quenched Dimension: > > Peaceful, smokeless, wishless, tamed, and harmless, > unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, > unconcerned with both past and future, clean, aloof, > imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, > directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being > enters the final state: > > The cooling of all craving, > The stilling of all construction, > The releasing of all the clinging, > The relinquishing of all acquisition, > Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, > Formless, senseless & deathless, > Silent, free, blissful, pure peace, > > Nibbâna... > <...> 45111 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Sukinder and Htoo - I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? In message #45105 : ---------------------------- Sukin: No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. ------------------------------------------- Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about panna are as follows: -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Sukin : > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So, you divide there are very weak and strong. Pariyatti is very weak > according to you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... ... > Htoo: > > This is the point where I would like to stress. If there is not real > panna, just knowledge is not panna. They are just memories and when these memories are gone, everything will be gone. > > One may say, 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati > know directly etc etc'. But when the memories are lost then the > stored knowledge of that 'right now there is light and form and panna > and sati know directly etc etc' will also be lost. > > At that time, as you said, one will have to re-learn again. But as > the brain is severely attacked by disease new learning may not be > possible. > > Knowledge is knowledge. Panna is panna. > > As long as one does not have panna, other's discoveries are not his > or her own. Because he or she has not yet seen with his or her own > wisdom. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I > think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the > accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And > yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done > often with lobha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg]closing off Email. nilovg Dear Tep, Please be stubborn, you are this in a nice way. I keep on thinking of your questions, very useful. I shall reply more on accumulations. I got another thought. I only have a problem with my eyes when reading until late (for me) many, many long mails. I cannot manage very well these days. So, sometimes I have to be short, or leave the answer. Typing is no problem. Another thing. We are vacationing in Belgium, and I close off all Email from May 7-until May 15. I can never hope to catch this up, I have to let it go. The coming days I do my best but may not do much. Nina. op 03-05-2005 15:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " 45113 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg]closing off Email. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Attn: Sarah, Hasituppada, Lisa, Kel and other friends)- It was an honor and like a classical music to my ears at the same time, when you said that the questions I had asked so far were "very useful". Lately I have been a lot more active just because I think I might be able to contribute something to this very exceptional group. I also am aware and grateful that I have learned a great deal from you and several other DSG members, even when we were disagreeing. So it has been a good two-way street. I still plan to continue posting messages here for quite a while. I read with great sympathy about your deteriorating vision. But I have heard of the latest advancements in vision correction and do hope that you may find a good ophthalmologist to help you out soon. Have a great vacation time, Nina. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Please be stubborn, you are this in a nice way. I keep on thinking of your > questions, very useful. I shall reply more on accumulations. I got another > thought. > I only have a problem with my eyes when reading until late (for me) many, > many long mails. I cannot manage very well these days. So, sometimes I have > to be short, or leave the answer. Typing is no problem. > Another thing. We are vacationing in Belgium, and I close off all Email from > May 7-until May 15. > I can never hope to catch this up, I have to let it go. > The coming days I do my best but may not do much. > Nina. > op 03-05-2005 15:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " 45114 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:59am Subject: Computer Trouble upasaka_howard Hi - I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace computer. I will likely have an absence from posting. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45115 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Sukinder and Htoo - I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? In message #45105 : ---------------------------- > Sukin: > > > > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > > ------------------------------------------- > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > as "miccha-panna". > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > kusala dhammas. > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, :-). I sensed it is like a boxer. 1st I thought he who changes was me. But at the end of your post who was on the floor was not me. You addressed Sukin and Htoo. So I considered that included me who changes. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45116 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: Computer Trouble htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi - > > I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace computer. I > will likely have an absence from posting. > > With metta, > Howard -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Howard, So...., one...two...! disappear!!! :-)) Take time when you are off. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45117 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (344) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma These are kamma classified acording to their time of giving rise to their result. In Pali it is called 'Paaka Kaala'. Paaka means 'vipaka' or 'result' and kaala means 'time' 'era'. The 1st kamma is called dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma. Dittha means 'visible'. So dittha-dhamma means 'visible dhamma'. Vedaniiya means 'things felt' 'things used'. This kamma gives rise to its result visibly in the current life. When kamma are committed, there arise 7 successive javana cittas. Javana cittas or mental impulsive consciounsess are 55 in numbers. 29 cittas are kama javana cittas and 26 cittas are appana javana cittas. Appana means absorption and they are jhana, magga, phala cittas. When javana cittas arise at kama object, there are 7 successive javana cittas. If these cittas are not of arahats that is if these javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, then there always are kamma whenever these javana cittas arise. The 1st kamma dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or 'kamma that has to be consumed by the current life' derives from the 1st javana citta out of 7 successive javana cittas. These matters will be continued in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I am sorry that it confused you when you first saw your name being included in the message. Well, you were included as a participant in a discussion, not as the third boxer in a strange threesome boxing event. By the way, do you agree with the panna definition as given by my research (from the Abhidhamma book written by Dr. Mon)? Any comments/additional findings to give? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Hi Sukinder and Htoo - > > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > >(snipped) > Dear Tep, > > :-). > > I sensed it is like a boxer. 1st I thought he who changes was me. But > at the end of your post who was on the floor was not me. You > addressed Sukin and Htoo. So I considered that included me who > changes. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45119 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition htootintnaing Dear Tep, Sukin, and interested members, Tep, you wrote: Dear Htoo - I am sorry that it confused you when you first saw your name being included in the message. Well, you were included as a participant in a discussion, not as the third boxer in a strange threesome boxing event. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Relieve. So as I am not the 3rd boxer, I do not hit or fall, :-)). But as you said, I am a participant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: By the way, do you agree with the panna definition as given by my research (from the Abhidhamma book written by Dr. Mon)? Any comments/additional findings to give? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like your research. Definitions are good and I think they seem to be right. As you request for comments and additional findings, I will discuss on your definitions. ====================================================================== Tep's definition of panna as researched: -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comments: This is, I think, about vipassanaa pannaa rather than panna in general. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Research point 2: -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha(non-delusion or wisdom). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not control over. Panna has the faculty of understanding. When there is panna in a citta, there is no moha and vice versa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's 2nd point continued: So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Conclusion is right. There is no micchaa-panna. But reasoning is wrong. Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas. But what worldlings do not have is vipassanaa-pannaa of release or liberation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 3: -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have to agree because it seem to be right. But I am not as good at Dhamma as Nina and Rob M, who write on such matters like characteristics, functions, manifestations and approximate causes. Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about 1. characterstic 2. function 3. manifestation 4. approximate cause of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that person. Rob M, if you have time, I would like to have a copy of dry message mentioning these 4 features of 83 matters ( 1 citta + 52 cetasikas + 28 rupas + 1 nibbana + 1 pannatti = 83 ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 4: --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Cetasika-wise it is exactly 47 cittas that have panna and they all are called tihetuka cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 5: -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: With Metta, Htoo Naing 45120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self & No Self nilovg Hi Naresh, nice to see you back here. I like your questions. op 03-05-2005 02:27 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@... > > what is the difference between a Monk & layperson, is > it that Monk is one who stays in seclusion and > practices & learns > And Layperson is one who follows dhamma but is also a > householder ? ---------- Nina: We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch IV, § 1 (X,31) that Upali asked the Buddha what the aim was of the Patimokkha: We cannot compare the status of monk and that of a layman. You see from the text how important the Sangha is: to preserve the teachings up to this day, to help laypeople to have more confidence in dhamma. The monk's life should be like the life of an arahat. The goal of monkhood is reaching arahatship. That is why he went forth, abandoning pleasures of the senses. He sees danger in the slightest faults, he strives after perfection. ----------- Naresh: Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht > there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is > quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self > but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing > only Truth, > So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this > 2 clashes & make my living worse. --------- Nina: Moments of pleasure and sorrow alternate in our life. They are there for a very short time and then they go. We are not master of them, they arise because of their own conditions and they cannot stay. A moment of pleasure is not mine, it is not me, how can it be me when it falls away immediately? There are seeing, hearing and thinking in a day, they arise only for a moment and are then gone. Can we say that the seeing is me, the hearing is me, that thinking is me? We can learn that life exists only in one moment, and that moment is never the same, it arises and then disappears, it is beyond control. At first we learn this in theory, but then, in being aware of different moments of our life we become more convinced that there is not one moment of reality that belongs to us. It takes a long time to learn this, we can learn more by discussing and asking questions. We all cling to the idea of self so long as we have not attained enlightenment. We are ignorant and like the self. But there can also be moments of realizing that this is foolish. Your life does not have to become worse. When you learn what the Buddha taught there are conditions for a little more understanding of the truth. Even theoretical understanding helps. Nina. 45121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause nilovg Dear Htoo, See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I did in my Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied to nibbaana, this is a special case. Paññatti do not have these four. Nina. op 04-05-2005 19:35 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about > > 1. characterstic > 2. function > 3. manifestation > 4. approximate cause > > of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was > thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that > person. 45122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause. again. nilovg Dear Htoo, If this is easier for you, you could get from the archives all the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV and Tiika studies, beginning with rupakkhandha, and all these four items are dealt with. Then cittas, and now we are going to start with akusala cetasikas. We are all the time dealing with 1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause Nina. op 04-05-2005 19:35 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about > > 1. characterstic > 2. function > 3. manifestation > 4. approximate cause > > of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was > thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that > person. 45123 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG Members - The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. There are 10 sections in the Treatise on Breathing; the first three (i, ii, iii) give a general survey before the detailed "analysis of the actual practice" in iv (quoted words of A.K. Warder, who wrote the introduction of the book). Section iv is the main body of the Treatise. The last six sections, v to x, describe the following: stages of knowledge of attainment of concentration (v); initial insight (vi); the subsequent kinds of insight leading up to emergence of the Path (vii to ix); Fruition of the Path (x). It should be noted that Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga explains the principal parts of this Treatise of Breathing. My plan is to present about two pages of the Treatise per week. Given that one week (on average) is enough for us to discuss the material, the Treatise review should be complete in 22 weeks. Let's start with the Summary, paragraph # 1, as shown below. [Note : 1 tetrad = 4 grounds] [TREATISE III -- ON BREATHING] [Summary] 1. When anyone develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds, over two hundred kinds of knowledge arise in him: I. eight kinds of knowledge of obstracles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids, II. eighteen kinds of knowledge of imperfections, III. thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing, IV. thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, V. twenty-four kinds of knowledge through concentration, VI. seventy-two kinds of knowledge through insight, VII. eight kinds of knowledge of dispassion, VIII. eight kinds of knowledge of what is in conformity with dispassion, IX. eight kinds of knowledge as tranquillization of dispassion, X. twenty-one kinds of knowledge of pleasure of deliverance. The next post will begin Section i which explains the 10 kinds of knowledges that can be attained by the Anapanasati bhavana. Thank you for your attention. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45124 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Instructions ..by the buddha? matheesha333 Samatha and vipassana has been likened to two wheels on the chariot of the dhamma. The buddha said that he would teach samatha to those who knew vipassana and vice versa. The current theravada world seems to be in the grip of sathipatthana and seems to have forgotten that it is not that simple. To reject everything else is simply to blinkered and sometimes just be trying to run on one wheel. If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate on golden lotuses would you say this is sathipattana? If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate by rubbing on a white cloth, is this sathipattana? Yet both these methods are instructions by the buddha. Is there only so much you can know by a 'one size fits all' attitude towards the dhamma? When carefully built up castles of concepts start crumbling what is left? What is left to investigate in ones own mind? metta Matheesha 45125 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Trouble sarahprocter... Hi All, Just to mention that Jon and I are having a lot of computer probs at the moment too:-( Jon's had trouble getting any connection from his home computer for the last couple of weeks and spent a lot of time running round trying to get things fixed to no avail....and now for the few days I've started to have a very intermittent connection too...more technical support coming today, so we'll see.... Howard, hope you get yours fixed soon and Htoo, it would be a great loss to the list if you have to disappear for such a long period....I really hope it isn't so long. I've particularly enjoyed all your good humoured responses. Keep us posted. Nina, have a good trip. I hope no one else disappears....Tep and all, keep up the excellent discussions meantime. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============= --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi - > > > > I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace > computer. I > > will likely have an absence from posting. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Howard, > > So...., one...two...! disappear!!! :-)) > .... 45126 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, all interested DSG Members - The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. ========================== You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thanl you. :-) With metta, Howard P.S. For the moment, with the help of AOL Tech Support, my computer is semi-functional! (Part of the problem was with the AOL software settings.) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45127 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Trouble upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/4/05 7:37:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi All, Just to mention that Jon and I are having a lot of computer probs at the moment too:-( Jon's had trouble getting any connection from his home computer for the last couple of weeks and spent a lot of time running round trying to get things fixed to no avail....and now for the few days I've started to have a very intermittent connection too...more technical support coming today, so we'll see.... Howard, hope you get yours fixed soon and Htoo, it would be a great loss to the list if you have to disappear for such a long period....I really hope it isn't so long. I've particularly enjoyed all your good humoured responses. Keep us posted. Nina, have a good trip. I hope no one else disappears....Tep and all, keep up the excellent discussions meantime. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) =========================== Must be a worldwide "conection virus"! Losing internet access while "on" AOL has been a major part of my problem. There are other problems too, but I've been able to work my way around them. For the moment, things are tolerable. If they worsen, well, fortunately, our local library offers decent internet access. Good luck to you and Jon with this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45128 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply buddhistmedi... Dear Sukinder - Let's continue the unfinished symphony! (There are several parts as usual, and we'll continue to discuss/debate them till one of us drops...) >Tep: 'Here training of higher virtue is known by virtue; the training >>of higher consciousness by concentration (samadhi); >> and the >training of higher understanding by understanding. ' VisM I,10. >>Adhisila sikkha = training of higher virtue. Adhicitta sikkha >>= training of higher consciousness. Adhipanna sikkha = training of >>higher understanding. >Sukinder: Every moment of satipatthana involves the development >of sila, samadhi and panna. Five or six factors during mundane >moments, and all eight, during the supra mundane. Why introduce >anything extra? Why must you see them separately? Is it because >you identify something you "do" with the idea that one or more of >these is being developed? Tep: Are you trying to find fault with the Visuddhimagga? I hope you did not mean Ven. Buddhaghosa was wrong, did you? Where in the Visuddhimagga did he say the three sikkhas were "extra" things, or did he say they were different from Sila-Samadhi-Panna development? Besides, how do you "practice" (patipatti) without you doing something? How can "nothing" practice "nothing"? How would you remove the practitioner, or the "monk", from the development of Sila- Samadhi-Panna? The Buddha always addressed his monks and then gave out a discourse for them to follow. Please prove your "principles" or "theory" above by showing a sutta that supports it. Now it is your turn to quote the Buddha's Teachings directly to prove your point! Respectfully yours, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep, (Htoo*) > > > More Tep's Comments on (I): > > Do you remember the following quote from the Visuddhimagga? > > 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a Bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. VisM I, 7. > > =Sukinder: > I have never read the Vis. Beyond what is quote here, but I do > remember another quote which goes to the effect: > > "There is Suffering, but no person who suffers. > There is a Path, but none who walks it". > ============================ > 45129 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for your support of the Treatise on Breathing. As you well know, this documentary film is for a special audience only (i.e. inclining toward samatha-vipassana and feeling comfortable with "concepts") . I hope you will give a feedback often to turn the presentation in the direction of improvement, whenever it starts to go wrong. | :->) Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > ========================== > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank you. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > 45131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction jonoabb Hi Tep A quick note (from my office) to say what a great idea. Please feel free to include as much detail as you wish ;-)). I believe the translations of many of the Pali terms are somewhat quirky. If it's not too much trouble, you may wish to give the Pali alongside the English in these cases. Also, if you have access to the Thai version of the text or its commentary, you may be able to add some further useful explanation. Just a thought, but never mind if it's too much. Looking forward to the series. Jon --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > There are 10 sections in the Treatise on Breathing; the first three (i, > ii, iii) > give a general survey before the detailed "analysis of the actual > practice" in iv (quoted words of A.K. Warder, who wrote the introduction > > of the book). Section iv is the main body of the Treatise. The last six > sections, v to x, describe the following: stages of knowledge of > attainment of concentration (v); initial insight (vi); the subsequent > kinds > of insight leading up to emergence of the Path (vii to ix); Fruition of > the > Path (x). > > It should be noted that Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga explains the > principal parts of this Treatise of Breathing. > > My plan is to present about two pages of the Treatise per week. Given > that one week (on average) is enough for us to discuss the material, > the Treatise review should be complete in 22 weeks. > > Let's start with the Summary, paragraph # 1, as shown below. [Note : 1 > tetrad = 4 grounds] > > [TREATISE III -- ON BREATHING] > > [Summary] > > 1. When anyone develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing > with sixteen grounds, over two hundred kinds of knowledge arise in him: > I. eight kinds of knowledge of obstracles and eight kinds of > knowledge of aids, > II. eighteen kinds of knowledge of imperfections, > III. thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing, > IV. thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, > V. twenty-four kinds of knowledge through concentration, > VI. seventy-two kinds of knowledge through insight, > VII. eight kinds of knowledge of dispassion, > VIII. eight kinds of knowledge of what is in conformity with > dispassion, > IX. eight kinds of knowledge as tranquillization of > dispassion, > X. twenty-one kinds of knowledge of pleasure of > deliverance. > > The next post will begin Section i which explains the 10 kinds of > knowledges that can be attained by the Anapanasati bhavana. > > Thank you for your attention. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========== 45132 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction foamflowers I will throw my 2 bits in too....Thank you very much Tep. I'm really looking foward to your research and presentation! Also I'm going to do some research on ritual, wooden bowls, house keys, initiation, and remembering where to put my mindfulness! Sarah and Connie hi! Love the humor and warm spirit. Nina thank you for your life works online I downloaded the whole site! Excellent study tool and much love to you and your family. Waves at Htoo....lol Kelvin_lwin, Ledi Sayadaw is conterversial? Are you talking about the Paramattha Dipini? He corrected certain mistakes in the widely accepted commentary I've read on a site I googled on this subjet. I've read that it was common to correct doctrine or add to it way back when. I had no idea his work was an issue, well I can pick them I guess..lol I can't remember where I read that though...hmmm, more then likely I'm wrong. Wait I remember! "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism" by Govind Chandra Pande, one of my first serious reads in Buddhism besides the Pali Canon. More things to research? Anyway Ledi's work, it moves my heart and I feel very close to him like he is sitting right next to me when I'm reading it. I am speaking in the conventional sense of "I" ....That is conceptual and I know it! With Metta, Lisa > > > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > tepsastri@y... writes: > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated > from > > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is >>the > > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to >>this > > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > ========================== > > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank >>you. :-) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > 45133 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 9:09pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Dear Hasituppada (and Tep), You wrote: ----------------------- > I see Tep answering your querries. I have not read it as yet. In the mean time let me see how I could reply your querries;> ----------------------- Thank you. I apologise for the delay in replying to your message. My first post to this thread caused a bit too much damage, so I kept a low profile for a while. -------------------------------------- H: > The part of the first paragraph of you post that deems a reply necessary is: > KenH says: The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > _________________________________ Hasituppada's reply, You need not include the whole Pali Cannon. However, we can take the Pali Cannon which was prepared at the First Sangayana, at which ---------------------------------------- This is as I thought, but Tep took exception to my saying so. The practice you and Tep (and Htoo and many, many others) follow is not the practice described in the ancient Pali texts *when those texts are considered in their entirety.* I wasn't begrudging you the right to practise whatever you like, I just wanted to make that point. ------------------------------------------------------ H: > Venerable Ananda read out the Sutta as he heard them directly from the Buddha or when the Buddha made the discourses when he was present. And Venerable Upali read out the Vinaya Pitaka. Thereafter the Pali Canon consisted of the Vinaya Pitaka and the Sutta Pita. They were the most ancient teachings. That is the teachings of the Buddha for the Order of the Sangha and his disciples. Tep,I, Htoo and millions of the followers of the Buddha take meditation instructions from this Sutta Pitaka. ------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure Htoo would agree with you. He has said (if I understand him correctly) that the instructions for formal vipassana meditation are missing from the Tipitaka, even though (he says) they were handed down by the Buddha. I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation too much, but I will briefly tell you that it is not just the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries that contradict your practice. There are suttas that do the same thing. When this has been pointed out in previous DSG threads, the usual answer has been, "Some suttas are late additions to the pitaka and they are less authoritative than early suttas." It is good to be clear about which texts are being relied upon for which practices. ----------------------------- H: > KenH says, Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. ----------------------------- My language could have been more diplomatic, but let's look at what I said. Firstly, consider the nature of walking, talking and eating when they are done in a normal, sensible way (by a person who might never have heard of meditation). Secondly, consider insight into conditioned dhammas (i.e., the momentary arising of panna to take another conditioned nama or rupa as its object). Thirdly, consider the practice of walking while concentrating on walking; "Foot is lifting, lifting, lifting . . . Foot is moving, moving, moving, . . . Foot is placing [down], placing, placing . . . Other foot is lifting, lifting, . . ." (I know this is how it is taught: I learnt it and tried to practise it over a period of 26 years.) Consider mindfulness of eating in the same way. ("Chewing, chewing, chewing . . Putting more food on fork, putting, putting, putting. . .") They are not normal, sensible, forms of behaviour, and they are impracticable for every-day life. You can't walk or eat (and certainly not talk) properly while your mind is engaged in that sort of behaviour. More to the point, that way of concentrating has nothing to do with the absolute reality taught by the Buddha. While there is thinking about the human body in the act of walking etc., there is no awareness of rupa (or nama). --------------------- H: > Hasituppada's reply: "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. (Mahasatipatthana Sutta.) ------------------- Again, I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation, but have you noticed the wording, "There is the case where a monk remains focussed"? It is not, "Perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness": it is simply a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness. Enough of that digression: I want to suggest that you and Tep might be ignoring the whole of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. You are saying the above lines should be understood in the conventional way (that is, in same way that they would be understood by a person who had not already been taught the Dhamma). That is a serious error. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but the suttas say it defames the Buddha. I have no reference at hand, but there is one that says, "He who says, of a discourse that needs further explanation, "This discourse needs no further explanation," defames the Buddha: He who says, of a discourse that needs no further explanation, "This discourse needs further explanation," defames the Buddha." It's very easy to defame the Buddha: his teaching is deeper in meaning and far more profound than any other teaching, so we should be careful before saying it is easy to learn and practise. ----------------------- H: > So Dear Ken H, when you say: "The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two." You speak, thus, about the teachings of the Buddha KenH. If that is what you say, is the teachings of the Buddha, we, Tep,I and Htoo and millions of others follow that "which you describe". ---------------------- There is another sutta (I can find it if you want me to, but you probably know it better than I do) where the Buddha explained he used conventional language (I, you, he, she, they) without getting caught up in it. When he used those terms, he was *always* referring to the five khandhas. When you or I use conventional language, we nearly always do get caught up in it. We take those terms to mean an abiding entity that moves from point A to point B and that persists from the past to the present to the future. We need to be reminded, time and time again, that there are only the five khandhas - momentary nama and rupa. When we read the Satipatthana Sutta, we might think it describes an entity that lives for seventy-plus years, or that lifts one foot up and lives long enough to put it down again, or that persists from one tiny fraction of a second to the next tiny fraction of a second. But no such entity is implied. In fact the reverse (anatta) is always implied. That makes the sutta hard to understand and even harder to put into practice, but the Buddha never said it was easy. --------------------------- H: > Enlightenment is one thing, Wisdom is another. You should not confuse the two. You should read some of Htoo's posts they are informative. However, it is good to read as much as possible, what ever Dhamma you learn is not lost. May you be happy. -------------------------- Thank you, and thanks for not taking offence. I always (or almost always) read Htoo's posts, but I am not sure how enlightenment is different from wisdom. Ken H 45134 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 184 - Enthusiasm/piiti (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm(piiti)contd] Píti takes an interest in the object which citta cognizes and which is also experienced by the accompanying cetasikas. It is satisfied, delighted with the object and it “refreshes” citta and the accompanying cetasikas. In the case of the kåmåvacara cittas (cittas of the sense-sphere) píti arises with the cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa). Thus, whenever there is somanassa, there is also píti. Píti is not the same as pleasant feeling, its characteristic and function are different. Píti is not feeling, vedanåkkhandha, but saòkhårakkhandha (the khandha which includes all cetasikas except vedanå and saññå). Pleasant feeling experiences the flavour of the object, its function is to exploit in one way or other the desirable aspect of the object (Vis. XIV, 128). Píti does not feel, its characteristic is, as we have seen, satisfaction and its function is refreshing or invigorating body and mind, or to pervade them with rapture. Píti takes an interest in the object and is delighted with it, it has its own specific function while it assists the citta; its function is different from the function of feeling. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm(piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45135 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Sarah and other friends, > I understand birthday greetings are in order - but I'm unsure > whether its you or Jon - anyway, I'll send wishes to both of you and > then that covers it for this year :-) .... S: :-) .... > > Azita: its amazing how quickly clinging comes in and wants more > when there is a moment of understanding, no matter how weak that > understanding may be; and there can be another moment of U. to see > lobha for what it really is, however in my case that generally > doesn't happen and - so what? its all outa control anyway. .... S: :-) .... > > BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being > namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know > where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, > would be greatly appreciated. .... S: Suggestions: a) most detailed by far is the Visuddhimagga, ch XV111 on, I believe. Do you have a copy of Vism? Did Betty give you a copy of the last chapters on Panna? If so, it'll be in that. b) briefer details in CMA, p349 onwards. The purification of view refers here to the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda nana. The 3 tender insights and then the principal insights are summarised on p.353. (some differences in the numbers and counting systems, depending on whether they start with tender or prinicpal insights and others I forget.) c) best detailed summary I can think of is A.Sujin's in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf on-line p.195 onwards(just key in the page no at the bottom of the pdf) If you have a pink hard copy that Betty gave some of us, it's p.194 onwards. d) Some helpful posts in U.P. under 'Stages of Insight 1', but I just took a look and see there are some posts there in error. You might find #22710 of Nina's helpful because I think you also asked about the parinnas in Bkk. Also see #19752. .... > I remember asking a question about them in the Jetavanna Grove in > India, but at that stage I really didn't know why I was asking, as I > knew nothing about them. I know they are stages of development and > now want to know more. Thanks, ... S: When you start reading the sections in Vism, you'll get an idea about why you didn't get a one or two sentence answer (there's so much detail) and insead it was left that you'd do a little research first if I recall:-). Maybe next India you'll be well prepared in this regard. And yes, K.Sujin usually brings any questions about stages of insight back to the present moment and the present concerns and motives...Is there any understanding of seeing now? Of visible object now? And so on... Hope this helps, Metta, Sarah ========== 45136 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Charles P (Hasituppada), It's always good to see your active participation here. Thank you for joining Tep's and other threads. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Hasituppada, > Rob K and Sarah have written many thorough posts on the historical side > of > the Abhidhamma, as belonging to the oldest tradition. It is in U.P. > under > Abhidhamma. ... S: See Abhidhamma3 - its origins. Here's one with some of Nina's comments too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 .... N:> As far as I understood, the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries were recited > from the first Council on. .... S: I'm curious to know what your sources are for believing that the Abhidhamma only dates from the 3rd Council? If I recall, you're from Sri Lanka originally and I know you're well read. Do you not have any confidence in what is stated so clearly in the ancient commentaries brought to Sri Lanka by the arahant Mahinda and passed down in Sinhalese before being recorded and annotated in Pali by Buddhagosa? Do you not give the early section of the Mahavamsa any credence in this regard? I'd really be interested in any sources you have which show these ones are wrong, so we might discuss them further. ... N:> I do not think it to be a later tradition, but most important to me: how > does it relate to our life? > And, the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. > In the U.P. of our list also sutta texts are mentioned that refer to > Abhidhamma, especially where the suttas are explained under the aspect > of > angas. ... S: The Dhamma-Vinaya consists of nine divisions or angas referred to in suttas. These are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. Here, Veyyakarana (Exposition)includes suttas without verses, the Abhidhamma and any other teachings of the Buddha not included in the other angas. More detail in Nina's comments I linked above. I think as Nina says, the most important thing is how the teachings related to our lives now. In this regard, I don't find any discrepancies in the teachings although there is plenty that I cannot begin to understand even theoretically. I just leave those aspects aside for now. As I say, I'll be glad to hear more about why you don't trust these Theravada commentaries, especially as you have a high regard for the Abhidhamma as you've said. Like you, I believe it enriches the Suttanta. Metta, Sarah ========= 45137 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. ... S: Thanks Tep. I think we’re all bound to agree and disagree at times here and that’s healthy for our further reflections. .... > > Sarah :Did you mean: > a) There really is something *we* can do? > b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated > c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing > conditioned > dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled > by any decision-making. > > S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By > conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In > other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following > actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is > any self involved. Do we agree here? > ... > > Tep: Yes, Sarah, we do. And by agreeing here, it means my answer to > your multiple-choice question above is b). This must be your answer > too. .... S: Hmmm... Let me break b) down a bit further to be sure we’re on the same page with this one (I’m getting into quiz mode like you and Htoo here – perhaps Htoo’ll even join in): > b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated By selecting b), do you mean: a) There really is a Self that can make choices until sotappati magga cittas arise? b) Self is an illusion, but there’s still an underlying self or me that can make choices c) There’s no Self or self really, but choices can still be directed by us and need to be until we’re sotapannas to avoid the hopeless and random ‘roulette game’. d) Self here indicates the wrong view of Self held so dearly and which gives the illusion of needing to make choices e) other – please specifiy ..... > T: I admire the way you elaborated about atta/anatta very clearly, > Sarah. This dialogue should be helpful for anyone who used to have > doubts on the ' not self', 'no self' idea. ... S: Thankyou again. Let’s be really sure we’re speaking the same language here first. You may not feel the same if we find any differences:-). .... > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " ... S: :-) I think we all just learn to get used to each other –we’re all just doing our best here and given the subject matter, I think we’re bound to react or be stubborn or contrary at times. No one minds at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 45138 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition sukinderpal Hi Tep and Htoo, Allow me to respond to this post first. Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that you now have a better understanding of this. But there are other things that I would like to express to you both. --------------------------------------------- Tep: > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > In message #45105 : > ---------------------------- > Sukin: > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, //Sukinder: No my understanding has not changed in this respect. I think Tep, you probably understand `pariyatti' to be the conventional act of reading and listening to Dhamma, and the knowledge acquired, right? Here on DSG, pariyatti is used to refer to a particular level of understanding, though I admit that often out of convenience I do use this word in a way that it overlaps with the conventional meaning. Htoo, I am not clear about your own understanding of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. You say that they are different forms of the same thing, could you explain this more clearly, since at other times the meaning seem to refer to conventional acts? If indeed these are "conditions", one supporting the other, then how can they then be merely concept? Let me explain to you both my own understanding of this. Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from when it is patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a reality appearing through one of the six doorways. Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this case, even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same, there is no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti. One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. Otherwise doubt and other unwholesome dhammas will lead us the wrong way, because we think that theory is just that, and involving only thinking and sanna. In other words we "seek to practice" precisely because we don't have the correct intellectual understanding and hence real appreciation for it. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > ------------------------------------------- > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > as "miccha-panna". > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > kusala dhammas. > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > the total 89 cittas. > -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with > attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] > > Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? //Sukinder: I hope you now view the matter differently? ;-) Metta, Sukinderpal 45139 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 44's up sarahprocter... Hi Connie,(Lisa, Azita & Chris) --- connie wrote: >.....I remembered saying I'd take my nose out of the > book long enough to write when a keyboard washed up on my desert island > as > I was dropping a wet rag onto the burning one & that struck me as being > > rather funny at the time. So did my friend's screaming and running out > of > the house, but considering she wouldn't even be buying this one if her > old > one hadn't burnt to the ground, ... S: To be honest, I think Howard's and our connection troubles seem rather mild compared to these washed up and burned out ones:-/ Is it a)an island refuge or b) taking Dispeller to a desert island or c)the island among all those concepts, I wonder? (Actually, I think a) and c) come down to the same). I really hope that you, Howard, Htoo and ourselves get all these glitches fixed.....meanwhile, courage, patience and good cheer as Azita reminds us. ... > perhaps all those people who've > suggested > that my sense of humour isn't quite what it should be have a point. ... S: Perhaps Lisa can add the quirky humour of the DSG women to her research project.....(Lisa, just wait til Azita and Chris get going in this regard:-). Oh, and add to that research: 'How come I always lose my house-keys in spite of following all those rituals:-/'? Is this related to a)old age and memory loss, b)wrong understanding of rituals, c)lack of awareness, d)too busy with DSG and computer problems, e)other...) ... C:> Anyway, seems whatever I'd been trying to fight off the few days before > that took advantage of the situation and I've been sicker than a dog > since, so fever is my excuse for any more than usual lack of sense. > peace, > connie on the way back to bed ... S: Hope you feel better soon and have the odd delusion dispelled in bed in the meantime. Hope it wasn't the 44's that knocked you out. Metta, Sarah ======= 45140 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi Tep > Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would > >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition > >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > > investigation of this all important condition! > > T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid > succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I > don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. > Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is > the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following the > previous one in the previous moment. Ph: Please note the tentative tone of my post - two "I guesses." I am just beginning to learn about this matter so sorry, I can't help you there. And "we" don't cause the succession of kusala moments. It is due to conditions. There is no self that can cause kusala to arise. See the anatta sutta (SN 22:59 - "but because volitional formations are nonself, it is not possible to have it of volitional formations: 'Let my volitional formations be thus; let my volitional formations not be thus." This sutta makes me wonder how on earth it can be believed that we can access metta, for example, just by sitting down and thinking about it.) I will be starting a discussion thread/corner on conditional relations (patthananaya) at some point in the future, hopefully. In the meantime, here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural decisive support condition.): "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas. Foe example, prior lust may be a natural decisive support condition for the volitions of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc; prior faith for thevolitions of giving alm, undertaking precepts and practicing meditation; the gaining of health for happiness and energy, the onset of sickness for sorrow and torpor." I suppose a kusala citta such is hiri or ottapa could condition the arising of more of the same through the condition described above - or it could be another condition. (There are 24, I think, in the teaching of conditional relations.) I suppose. I guess. I recommend Nina's book "Conditions", available online. I won't be able to respond on this topic any further than I have, for now. Metta, Phil 45141 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - Your encouragement was timely! I will need your feedback from time to time too. Jon: > > I believe the translations of many of the Pali terms are somewhat quirky. If it's not too much trouble, you may wish to give the Pali alongside the English in these cases. Also, if you have access to the Thai version >of the text or its commentary, you may be able to add some further useful explanation. Just a thought, but never mind if it's too much. > Great suggestion, Jon! I do have the Thai version and it will not be any trouble for me to incorporate nice things from it into the presentation. But the Pali supplement is beyond my reach (like trying to pick a fruit from a tall tree?)-- maybe I can make an attempt at it, but I do need help to correct inevitable errors! Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > A quick note (from my office) to say what a great idea. Please feel free > to include as much detail as you wish ;-)). (snipped) > Looking forward to the series. > > Jon > > 45142 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi Lisa - I appreciate the kind words. It is true that research and writing about its findings take time, and the mind is wandering far from its base. Yes, we must "remember where to put mindfulness" ! Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > I will throw my 2 bits in too....Thank you very much Tep. I'm really > looking foward to your research and presentation! Also I'm going to > do some research on ritual, wooden bowls, house keys, initiation, and > remembering where to put my mindfulness! Sarah and Connie hi! Love > the humor and warm spirit. Nina thank you for your life works online I > downloaded the whole site! Excellent study tool and much love to you > and your family. Waves at Htoo....lol > > Kelvin_lwin, Ledi Sayadaw is conterversial? Are you talking about the > Paramattha Dipini? He corrected certain mistakes in the widely > accepted commentary I've read on a site I googled on this subjet. > > I've read that it was common to correct doctrine or add to it way back > when. I had no idea his work was an issue, well I can pick them I > guess..lol I can't remember where I read that though...hmmm, more > then likely I'm wrong. > > Wait I remember! "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism" by Govind > Chandra Pande, one of my first serious reads in Buddhism besides the > Pali Canon. More things to research? Anyway Ledi's work, it moves my > heart and I feel very close to him like he is sitting right next to me > when I'm reading it. I am speaking in the conventional sense of "I" > ....That is conceptual and I know it! > > With Metta, > Lisa > > > > > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > > > > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated > > from > > > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > > > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is > >>the > > > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to > >>this > > > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > > ========================== > > > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank > >>you. :-) > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > 45143 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 8:30pm Subject: The Noble Way ... !! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Noble 8-fold Way : From right View comes right Motivation. From right Motivation comes right Speech. From right Speech comes right Action. From right Action comes right Livelihood. From right Livelihood comes right Effort. From right Effort comes right Awareness. From right Awareness comes right Concentration. From right Concentration comes right Understanding. From right Understanding comes right mental Release. From right Release comes Freedom, Bliss, and Peace. Thus opened are the doors to the Deathless State...!!! Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 18 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45144 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 6:16am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Dear Darah (Sukinder, Htoo ..etc.) - Your new, creative multiple-choice quiz has been a real challenge. It is tough not only because the atta/anatta principles are very deep, but also because of the interference from my own waves of misinterpretation having been accumulated over time. I selected b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated, and you asked : Sarah: By selecting b), do you mean: > a) There really is a Self that can make choices until sotappati magga cittas arise? > b) Self is an illusion, but there's still an underlying self or me that can make choices > c) There's no Self or self really, but choices can still be directed by us and need to be until we're sotapannas to avoid the hopeless and random `roulette game'. >d) Self here indicates the wrong view of Self held so dearly and which gives the illusion of needing to make choices > e) other – please specifiy T: My choice is e) "other", to be specified below. Of course, because of my worldling's understanding of atta/anatta there is again some impurity of view unaviodably being nested in my answer. This is one reason, I guess, why most people fail to make a clear-cut answer, when asked to elaborate on the 'self ' issue, and they ususally entangle themselves up in another confusion, another series of questions and answers. According to the Anattalakkhana sutta, the Buddha said, for example, about the consciousness aggregate : "...If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' " [Same for the other four aggregates..] T: Clearly, the Buddha only gave a logical deduction on the self view of the pancakkhandha that says such a view is wrong and why. The self view, 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self', is a consequence of the existence of pancakkhandha in the present moment. Such a self view reflects a wrong attitude - a miccha ditthi, because 'self ' is real only to people who have upadana on the aggregates. Because of the anicca and dukkha characteristics, it does not make sense for anyone to take the pancakkhandha as me, mine or my self -- therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion. With or without the wrong attitude about self or the miccha ditthi self view, the pancakkhandha exists (they are not illusion at all, despite the Truth that they are impermanent and so on) and decisions are being made all the time (the decisions are not illusion either. For example, President Bush was elected and his decision to invade Iraq was real.) >S: :-) I think we all just learn to get used to each other –we're all >just doing our best here and given the subject matter, I think > we're bound to react or be stubborn or contrary at times. > No one minds at all. T: I agree completely. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. > ... > S: Thanks Tep. I think we're all bound to agree and disagree at times here > and that's healthy for our further reflections. > .... 45145 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Like and colours philofillet Hi Larry and Sarah and all First of all, thanks, Larry, for the suggested method of approaching/understanding like and colour. To be honest, I couldn't quite follow it, which I'm sure is due to my lack of range and lack of effort rather than any deficency in your thinking. (It did feel like an awful lot of thinking for something that happens so momentarily!) I guess I'm still wanting to learn the more orthodox Abhidhamma teaching on the topic. Thanks for your explanation as well, Sarah. > > I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the > > same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue > > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand > > for me. > .... >> So, it's not the colour like blue which is inherently pleasant or > unpleasant, but the visible object which is seen. > > Perhaps it's easier to understand (theoretically) with sound -- some like > when we hear thunder are inherently unpleasant. but don't get hung up on > this point -- it's impossible to know when vipaka is pleasant/unpleasant > and it would be quite wrong to try and find out, like trying to be aware > of motion or any other aspect. Ph: Yes, there's a lot to get hung up on. Vipaka is in the wink of an eye - it is what arises in response to vipaka that we should think about (for now) and develop a more direct understanding of. Oops I used the "sh" word! I thought it was this post that had other comments from you, Sarah, re my comment about not getting "tips" as I put it about how to understand motion, etc. A moment of impatience on my part, that's all. Moments of impatience come and go in a conditioned way. It's interesting when listening to recorded talks how every time certain talks come around, my response to them is different. For example, when the Thai man is talking about his dying mother in the hospital, and Kh Sujin's response. Sometimes I find it encouraging, sometimes irritating, sometimes I don't even hear it because my mind is on my own mother or on baseball or whatever other recycled crud is being pumped through my brain beyond my control! Understanding, even shallow intellectual understanding, comes and goes due to conditions. Metta, Phil p.s still interesting (but I won't now) to consider to what degree, if any, moments of insight noted by and related to us by trusted dhamma friends can help to condition shallower but still helpful moments of our own. I think of Nina's shattered oven door. I am kind of hoping that our oven door will shatter so I can have a moment of insight conditioned by hers! (I don't know if she would call that series of experiences contained within one incident insight or not) Daily life is so full of these mundane moments when we experience a momentary deepening of our intellectual understanding of cittas, of conditions. 45146 From: nina Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:24am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 157 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 157 Intro: Here, the Visuddhimagga deals with the sobhana cetasikas that accompany the five types of ruupaavacara kusala cittas (of fine material jhaana) and the four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas (of immaterial jhaana). Not all of them accompany each of the jhaanacittas and the reasons for this are indicated. We read in Vis. XIV,86 about the classification of the ruupaavacara cittas as fivefold, according to the fivefold system of jhaana. At each higher stage of jhaana, jhaana factors are abandoned as calm develops and does not need the more coarse jhaana-factors. Some people have abandoned both applied thought and sustained thought at the second stage of jhaana, and thus for them the stages of jhaana are reckoned as fourfold. We read about the jhaanacittas classified according to the fivefold system of jhaana: < (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness(piiti or rapture), bliss (happy feeling), and concentration, (10), the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness(fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. The aruupaavacara cittas are the same type of citta as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta. ******** Text Vis.157: (9)-(13) All those stated in the first instance, except the three abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), come into association with the first of the fine-material profitable [kinds of consciousness] (9). ------------- N: The Tiika explains that for someone who has a thoroughly purified conduct through body and speech, kusala of the level of ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana occurs by way of concentration of mind (cittasamaadhaana), not by way of purifying kamma through body and speech, nor by way of eradication and allaying misconduct and wrong livelihood. He said Œexcept the three abstinences¹, because when the mahaggata cittas (jhaanacittas) arise, the abstinences are not made to occur. Jhaanacitta is removed from all sense objects and the clinging that is bound up with them. At such a moment there is no opportunity for wrong conduct and thus not for the abstentions. Jhaana is a high degree of kusla, but it does not eradicate wrong action, speech and livelihood. ------------------ Text Vis.: With the second(10) applied thought (iii) is also lacking. With the third (11)sustained thought (iv) is also lacking. With the fourth (12) happiness (piiti or rapture)(v) is also lacking. With the fifth (13) compassion (xxxii) and gladness(xxxiii), among the inconstant, are also lacking. ----------------- N: The cetasikas that are the jhaanafactors are abandoned as higher stages are reached. compassion (xxxii) and gladness(sympathetic joy, xxxiii), are among the inconstant cetasikas, they do not accompany each sobhana citta. They can become subjects of jhaanacitta and with these subjects, only four stages of ruupa-jhaana can be attained, not the fifth stage of jhaanacitta since that is accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Vis. (Ch IX, 111) explains that they are not dissociated from joy, because Œthey are the escape from ill will etc., which are originated by grief¹. The Divine Abiding of Equanimity can be the subject of the fifth jhaanacitta, since this is accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika refers to opinions of teachers about the feelings that can accompany compassion and sympathetic joy. When they previously were developed, before the attainment of jhaana, they could be accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, when jhaana has been attained compassion and sympathetic joy are not accompanied by indifferent feeling. This question is also dealt with in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 74, 75). ------------- Text Vis.: (14)-(17) In the case of the four kinds of immaterial [profitable consciousness] these are the same as the last-mentioned, for it is only the immaterialness that is the difference here. ---------------- N: The aruupa-jhaanacittas are of the same type of citta as the fifth type of ruupa-jhaanacitta, and thus it is accompanied by the same cetasikas. ---------------- Conclusion: the cetasikas that accompany jhaana-citta support this citta, while they each perform their own function. Alobha, detachment, is essential. The aim of jhaana is subduing attachment to sense objects. When there is attachment to the bliss of jhana, the citta is akusala and jhana cannot be further developed. Adosa, non-aversion, is a condition for patience in the development of jhaana. Adosa prevents boredom or annoyance when there is no immediate result of one¹s development. Jhaana is a high degree of kusala but its development is most difficult. It is not suitable for everybody. Amoha or paññaa that dispels the darkness of delusion is necessary, lest one takes for wholesome calm what is in reality a subtle form of lobha. The six pairs of calm, lightness and so on are necessary conditions for jhaana-citta to be smooth, gentle and alert, to have skill and competence in the attainment of jhaana and its development to higher stages. Equanimity, tatramajjhattataa, prevents deficiency and excess, it is necessary for the attainment of jhaana. Thus we see that not only concentration is a necessary condition for jhana, but that also other sobhana cetasikas that support the jhaanacitta are essential. ******** Nina. 45147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, Phil and all, As Phil explains, and quotes from B.B., natural decisive support condition includes the condition of kusala and akusala of the past that have fallen away and condition the arising again of kusala and akusala. I should mention another aspect. Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are accumulating. They are javana cittas and the first javanacitta conditions the following one by repetition condition. There are usually seven in all. Some people find the number seven hard to accept, but, it is a fact that for instance when there is seeing, it is only one moment. Whereas the kusala cittas or akusala cittas that follow are more moments, succeeding one another. This condition is called repetition-condition, asevana-paccaya. In our life we accumulate both kusala and akusala, even now. When we are thinking, often this is done with cittas rooted in lobha. When we are just looking at something and this seems harmless, we may be accumulating more lobha. Whenever the object of citta is not dana, sila or mental development, which also includes the study of Dhamma, we think with akusala citta. This gives us a sense of urgency. As I mentioned before, the javana cittas fall away, but kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural decisive support condition. In the Great Discourse on Causation, p. 71, we read that the subco states: I think that this is a good exhortation to continue with perseverance developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. On p. 69, the subco about the danger of underlying tendencies (anusayas): Thus, anusayas are called subtle defilements since they do not arise with the citta, but they are strong, they are only abandoned by magga-citta at the moment of enlightenment. Nina. ------------- Phil wrote: Here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural > decisive support condition.): > > "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that > includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material > phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a > subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent > cittas and cetasikas. 45148 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, Thankyou for your message. You remember Sarah, you asked me not to leave but be arround. Therefore I am there, but hope I am not disturbing the prevailing quiet studious atmosphere from my occasional interruptions. I know you all have patience. My information is that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the first Council except for the the Vinaya which was read first by Venerable Upali and next the Suttapitaka by Venerable Ananda. At that council Venerable Ananda also mentioned about the minor rules the Buddha spoke of before Parinibbana. Which I think was the issue at the Second Council. Parts of the Abhidhamma may have been included at the second council but Abhidhamma was included as the third Pitaka at the 3rd Council. I am unable now to search for sourse material. Abhidhamma was certainly there during Buddha's time as Venerable Sariputta received it from the Buddha, and he gave it to 500 of his disciples. I do not think that I mentioned any where about my disagreement with the Buddhist Commentaries or not having any confidence in them. I have deep respect for the word of the Buddha- Dhamma and Sangha. I am a Buddhist of the Theravada tradition , but I have great respect for the followers of the Buddha's Dhamma in all other traditions as well. When it comes to meditation , what ever different methods are used the final stages of Meditation, concentration , and panna is the same. The Mahayana tradition which has a Bodhisatva concept, and with its Bodhisatta Vow- which is a great expression of Buddhist Karuna, is different but their meditation does not differ from other traditions. My understanding is that there is no where in the Buddhist Countries a tradition of Meditation based on the Abhidhamma. I started reading Abhidhamma quite recently and find that most of what I wanted to read in Abhidhamma is in the Sutta Pitaka , but the Abhidhamma gives the details of some of the terms found in the Suttas which are undoubtedly important. Before you misinterpret, I should say that we of Sri Lanka have a great respect to Abhidhamma, and we believe the Sutta discourses the Buddha made were for his followers in this world. I am a Meditator and I have the Buddha's Suttas from Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta to Maha Satipattana to guide me along in my meditation. However, I admit, I have not read many Suttas. But even without them when one meditates under the guidance of a teacher, all instructions( kamatahan) are provided to understand the dhamma, and a meditator experiences the Dhamma in meditation. I believe that Samatha Bhavana along with the four Jhana absorptions are an essential pre-requisite for Vipassana meditation. I believe in sitting meditation and take Anapanasati as my object of meditation. I also believe in the Iriyapata meditation to support sitting meditation. For me the" reality of the instance" is Sati. Sati or being Mindful is some thing that can be practiced and developed, which helps in the development of concentration……..etc. With metta, Hasituppada. 45149 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada Dear Ken H, Thankyou Ken, for your message. There is no need to get offended. We merely exchange our points of view. I read your Post No.45108 to Charles. It was very interesting to read and you have certainly grasped well the teachings in the Abhidhamma. But I cannot say the same when you speak of meditation practiced by those following the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. There you are completely confused.Please excuse me for saying so. I have no doubt you had meditated for a long period of time, but you have not understood the fundamentals of Buddhist Meditation. That was,( an still is) because you are trying to look at Satipatthana Sutta from the Abhidhamma angle. Abhidhamma explains the four paramattha dhammas, rupa, citta, cetasika and Nibbana. And explains the five aggregates and their components. These are bereft of concepts. Meditation by human beings cannot be done without concepts, as they live in a world of concepts. Therefore it is said of Buddhism a pragmatic teaching. You begin from what is known and go to the unknown. It is not so easy the otherway round. If you want to understand Suttas better, you should stop reading Abhdhamma for a while, and begin to read the Suttas with what is called a " don't know" mind. Then you will get the meanings better. Forget about the reality of the instant, and be mindful of all your activities. That will help you to understand that there is a different depth in being mindful and then in meditation. with metta, Hasituppada 45150 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: The Noble Way ... !! hasituppada Dear Bhante, This is great. I really liked the way the eight fold path is presented. Thankyou, with metta, Hasituppada --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Noble 8-fold Way : > > From right View comes right Motivation. > From right Motivation comes right Speech. > From right Speech comes right Action. > From right Action comes right Livelihood. > From right Livelihood comes right Effort. > From right Effort comes right Awareness. > From right Awareness comes right Concentration. > From right Concentration comes right Understanding. > From right Understanding comes right mental Release. > From right Release comes Freedom, Bliss, and Peace. > > Thus opened are the doors to the Deathless State...!!! > > Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 18 > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html > > Friendship is the Greatest ! > and the entire Noble Life... > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re:accumulations. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Phil (Sarah, Htoo, Howard etc.) - Thank you, Phil, for pointing to the important "natural decisive support condition" that triggers the renewal of kusala and akusala ("the arising again of kusala and akusala"). Thank you Nina, again and again, for putting together the necessary background information that helps ring the bell loud and clear to my ears. Yes, you have successfully transmitted the message on accumulations. In addition to learning the Abhidhamma principles, I am also learning from you how to communicate more effectively. Questions: 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the accumulation phenomenon? 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and akusala kammas, respectively? 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? Or, do the accumulated kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or perception play a role in the accumulations at all? 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all the time ? Below is a summary of the main points on accumulations with my own deductions. Please give me a feedback as to the accuracy of the deductions. 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to arise, and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma because of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). I tried to keep this post as short as I could!I promise to make it shorter next time. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, Phil and all, > (snipped) > developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. > On p. 69, the subco about the danger of underlying tendencies > (anusayas): Thus, anusayas are called subtle defilements since they do not arise with the citta, but they are strong, they are only abandoned by magga- citta at the moment of enlightenment. > Nina. > ------------- > Phil wrote: > Here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from > > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural > > decisive support condition.): > > > > "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that > > includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material > > phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a > > subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent > > cittas and cetasikas. 45152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pariyatti. nilovg Hi Sukin, The way you explain this I find very helpful. It is a good reminder and clearly shows that we should be passive, thinking: just see what happens. I shall type it out for Lodewijk, taking it along on our vacation. Good for discussion! Nina. op 05-05-2005 11:09 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: > When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that > this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very > phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the > characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, > there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and > with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a > planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of > satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood > through direct experience. > > The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more > and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can > reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through > experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied > and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other > time, place or activity. > > To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of > wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently > arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends > the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is > weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, > that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by > the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience > arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to > greater understanding of the six worlds separately. 45153 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours nilovg Hi Phil, It is actually as Sukin explained so well in his post about pariyatti. Nina. op 05-05-2005 15:26 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I think of Nina's shattered oven door. I am kind > of hoping that our oven door will shatter so I can have a moment of > insight conditioned by hers! (I don't know if she would call that > series of experiences contained within one incident insight or not) > Daily life is so full of these mundane moments when we experience a > momentary deepening of our intellectual understanding of cittas, of > conditions. 45154 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada nilovg Dear Haistuppada, you make an interesting remark, but perhaps I apply it differently from you. It does not matter. I think of the satipatthana sutta: the Buddha used concepts common to our daily life: breathing, parts of the body, corpses. Why? To bring us back to paramattha dhamma now. As you formulate (which I like): go to the unknown. Yes, the elements, khandhas, nama and rupa are new to us. We never heard about them before. The Buddha reminds us: all those body parts we are attached to, they are only elements. Nina. op 05-05-2005 17:46 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > Meditation by human beings cannot be done without concepts, as they > live in a world of concepts. Therefore it is said of Buddhism a > pragmatic teaching. You begin from what is known and go to the > unknown. 45155 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, op 05-05-2005 19:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? ------------ N: Just before death javana cittas are five, they are weak. They are usually seven, but here I do not speak of jhanacittas. ---------- T: 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is > such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the > accumulation phenomenon? ------------------ N: Javanacittas of non arahats are kusala or akusala. Only javanacittas are repetition-condition, except the last one. There may be two types of retention but these are not repetition condition. --------------- T: 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are > accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and > akusala kammas, respectively? --------------- N: It depends on the intensity. When they have the intensity of kamma patha , kamma is accumulated and will produce vipaka. Also, the inclination to kusala and akusala is accumulated. This is intricate. When a deed is performed such as giving, there are many different cittas at such moments. There may also be stinginess, and this causes the vipaka to be less abundant. It has influence. ----------- T: 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition > the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural > decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or > akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? ----- N: They cannot be stored, but they are passed on from one citta to the next, and they are in constant change since new accumulations are added. ----------- T: Or, do the accumulated > kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or > perception play a role in the accumulations at all? --------- N: Yes, also the kammas are passed on. That is, those that are capable of producing result. Not the very weak lobha such as putting butter on your bread, But this weak lobha is accumulated as an inclination. Lodewijk says that he realizes that taking a drink is accumulated little by little. He knows this. I answered: that is why Kh. Sujin said: just be aware, and would not critizise. She would not say: do not drink. He answered: that is it. By sati one will know. Sati will stop it. (Ken H will like this). As to saññaa: this remembers experiences, events, so that you can recall them. It is saññaa, not you who remembers. Saññaa remembers: this wine tastes good. Another example. Lodewijk reads on tape Kh. Sujin's Perfections on her request. He accumulates a lot of kusala with this work. He speaks so convincingly about determination perfection, how important it is, that it works as a good reminder for me. Not because he is my husband (I should not be partial), but I am so impressed. I think it can help others to have more confidence in the accumulation of perfections when they hear him speak with such confidence. ------- T: 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get > eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all > the time ? N: In each citta. Then in the next one, then in the next one. Isn't that tricky? _______ > T: 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise > because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as > the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support > condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will > be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. ------ N: I would not call this a condition for their arising. Ignorance is the first link! The natural decisive support condition and all the conditions belong to our life in samsara. Cannot be helped. ------------- T: 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the > subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. --------- N: I would not make this differentiation. sankhara dhamma and sankhata dhamma refer to the same dhammas. They show a different aspect of the same dhammas. sankhata dhamma: stresses:what has arisen because of conditions has to fall away. ----------- T: 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to arise, > and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of > 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma ----- N: Javana cittas accumulate kamma and kilesa as the Expositor explains. ------- T: because > of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. ---------- N: I would not say: because. They happen to be repetition-condition for the following one, but also anantara condition, contiguity condition, operates. ----------- T: 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding > accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is > supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). ----------- N: this recurrence *is* repetition condition. During those moments. But they are accumulated and condition the arising again of paññaa. The accumulation and natural dependence condition are important here. ***** Nina. 45156 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:20pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Sunkinder, Htoo, Nina, RobertK - In the previous message (#45111 ) I presented the description of panna from the Abhidhamma book by Dr. Mon . > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. (snipped) T: The panna as "knowing things as they really are" is clearly beyond the worldlings' level that is implied in your post to Htoo earlier, "However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again". Also you wrote, "Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound." All these show that you did not know that panna belongs to ariya puggalas only. Htoo responded in the message #45119 to my request that he comment on Dr. Mon's definition. T: > ....Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things >according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. ------------------------------------ Htoo's comments: This is, I think, about vipassanaa pannaa rather than panna in general. ------------------------------------- Tep's 2nd point continued: So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". ------------------------------------- Htoo: Conclusion is right. There is no micchaa-panna. But reasoning is wrong. Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas. But what worldlings do not have is vipassanaa-pannaa of release or liberation. ------------------------------------ T: I think Htoo's opinion that "Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas" contradicts to Dr. Mon and to Htoo's earlier statement, i.e. when he agreed that panna was the same as yathabhuta-nana. So I am not sure what you meant as you wrote in your message #45138, "Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that you now have a better understanding of this". No, Sukinder, Htoo has not been clear. Now he should explain his contradicting statements before I continue the discussion. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep and Htoo, > > Allow me to respond to this post first. > > Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that > you now have a better understanding of this. But there are other things > that I would like to express to you both. > --------------------------------------------- > > Tep: > > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > > In message #45105 : > > ---------------------------- > > Sukin: > > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, > (snipped) > > Sukin: > > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > > ------------------------------------------- > > > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > > panna are as follows: > > > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they > really > > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > > as "miccha-panna". > > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time > because, > > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > > kusala dhammas. > > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > > the total 89 cittas. > > -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with > > attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha > I,viii] > > > > Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? > > //Sukinder: > I hope you now view the matter differently? ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukinderpal 45157 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re:accumulations. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you so very much for the detailed answers to my questions. There are several points that still are not clear yet, and so I will need to come back to study them again. All the time I am aware of your weaken eyes and the pains that are resulted from readings long emails. I remember one of your recent emails saying that you are going to stop answering emails soon. I hope that may not happen at all. By the way, do you plan to see an eye specialist soon? There are some pros and cons. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > > op 05-05-2005 19:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? > ------------ > N: Just before death javana cittas are five, they are weak. They are usually > seven, but here I do not speak of jhanacittas. > ---------- > T: 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is > > such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the > > accumulation phenomenon? > ------------------ > N: Javanacittas of non arahats are kusala or akusala. Only javanacittas are > repetition-condition, except the last one. There may be two types of > retention but these are not repetition condition. > --------------- > T: 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are > > accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and > > akusala kammas, respectively? > --------------- > N: It depends on the intensity. When they have the intensity of kamma patha > , kamma is accumulated and will produce vipaka. Also, the inclination to > kusala and akusala is accumulated. > This is intricate. When a deed is performed such as giving, there are many > different cittas at such moments. There may also be stinginess, and this > causes the vipaka to be less abundant. It has influence. > ----------- > T: 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition > > the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural > > decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or > > akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? > ----- > N: They cannot be stored, but they are passed on from one citta to the next, > and they are in constant change since new accumulations are added. > ----------- > T: Or, do the accumulated > > kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or > > perception play a role in the accumulations at all? > --------- > N: Yes, also the kammas are passed on. That is, those that are capable of > producing result. Not the very weak lobha such as putting butter on your > bread, But this weak lobha is accumulated as an inclination. > Lodewijk says that he realizes that taking a drink is accumulated little by > little. He knows this. I answered: that is why Kh. Sujin said: just be > aware, and would not critizise. She would not say: do not drink. He > answered: that is it. By sati one will know. Sati will stop it. (Ken H will > like this). > As to saññaa: this remembers experiences, events, so that you can recall > them. It is saññaa, not you who remembers. Saññaa remembers: this wine > tastes good. > Another example. Lodewijk reads on tape Kh. Sujin's Perfections on her > request. He accumulates a lot of kusala with this work. He speaks so > convincingly about determination perfection, how important it is, that it > works as a good reminder for me. Not because he is my husband (I should not > be partial), but I am so impressed. I think it can help others to have more > confidence in the accumulation of perfections when they hear him speak with > such confidence. > ------- > T: 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get > > eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all > > the time ? > N: In each citta. Then in the next one, then in the next one. Isn't that > tricky? > _______ > > T: 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise > > because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as > > the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support > > condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will > > be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. > ------ > N: I would not call this a condition for their arising. Ignorance is the > first link! The natural decisive support condition and all the conditions > belong to our life in samsara. Cannot be helped. > ------------- > T: 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the > > subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. > --------- > N: I would not make this differentiation. sankhara dhamma and sankhata > dhamma refer to the same dhammas. They show a different aspect of the same > dhammas. sankhata dhamma: stresses:what has arisen because of conditions has > to fall away. > ----------- > T: 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to > arise, > > and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of > > 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma > ----- > N: Javana cittas accumulate kamma and kilesa as the Expositor explains. > ------- > T: because > > of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. > ---------- > N: I would not say: because. They happen to be repetition-condition for the > following one, but also anantara condition, contiguity condition, operates. > ----------- > T: 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding > > accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is > > supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). > ----------- > N: this recurrence *is* repetition condition. During those moments. But they > are accumulated and condition the arising again of paññaa. The accumulation > and natural dependence condition are important here. > ***** > Nina. 45158 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). Pannindriya is normally called 'panna cetasika'. In abhidhamma, panna, nana and amoha are synonyms. Amoha is one of the three moral roots. As one of the four means of accomplishing one's ends (iddhipada), panna takes the name of vimansa (analytical wisdom). When purified and cultivated by samadhi, panna assumes the powerful role of abhinna (supernormal knowledge). When highly developed, panna becomes a factor of enlightenment (bojjhanga) under the name of dhamma-vicaya (investigation of the truth), and also a component of the Noble Eightfold Path under the name of samma-ditthi (right view). The culmination of panna is the omniscience of Buddha. *** kel: Sorry to say but you reached the wrong conclusion. All eight kusala cittas have no moha but 4 have amoha. That's the difference between dvihetuka and tihektuka people. All jhana cittas also have amoha/panna. nana is also a general word and even vipassana nanas are still loki panna, only magga/phala nanas are lokuttara. Even for the same kusala citta with amoha, the quality of the panna isn't necessarily the same. His last comment is saying the highest panna is that of a Buddha and even then we know not all Buddhas achieved the same power/qualities. - kel 45159 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hello Kel (Htoo, Sukinder and Nina) - I am glad you had time to write a post. Kel : Sorry to say but you reached the wrong conclusion. All eight > kusala cittas have no moha but 4 have amoha. That's the difference > between dvihetuka and tihektuka people. All jhana cittas also have > amoha/panna. nana is also a general word and even vipassana nanas are still loki panna, only magga/phala nanas are lokuttara. Even for the same kusala citta with amoha, the quality of the panna isn't > necessarily the same. T: You mean I was wrong in using Dr. Mon's statement ["Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda)"] to make the conclusion that panna was the same as yathabhuta-nana ? But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is beyond the ordinary people : > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). > Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep, > 45160 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. - kel > But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is > beyond the ordinary people : > > > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or > > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding > man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha > (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). 45161 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:54pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Kel - You've made a great point, and it is convincing. Thank you much. Kel: > You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. > T: I don't have Dr. Mon's book, neither do I have any Abhidhamma book on my shelf. But it seems that if I keep on discussing the Abhidhamma with you, Nina or Sukinder, soon I will need to buy a good one. Thanks. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > > T: But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is > > beyond the ordinary people : > > > > > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > > > > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non- delusion or > > > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding > > man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha > > (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). 45162 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 9:06pm Subject: Keys go in the Bowl by the Door Sarah! foamflowers Sarah, I can't remember where I got this, maybe off of DSG? Or maybe off the net, darn it I didn't leave a citation like I usually do. Golly gosh, I guess sometimes I do forget to put the keys in the bowl when I get him...lol... if I can keep an eye open for sati when it comes and goes my memory will become stronger? 1) The Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' 2) Perception is also subtly related to themes of Mindfulness Immersed in the Body [Kayagatasati]: "There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain". [AN IV.14 § 50 in Part II: The Seven Sets, C. The Four Right Exertions, Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu.] With Metta,....Connie--praying you heal quickly! Lisa 45163 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, There's an online version though http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf - kel 45164 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 10:19pm Subject: Re: Keys go in the Bowl by the Door Sarah! foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Sarah, > > I can't remember where I got this, maybe off of DSG? Or maybe off the > net, darn it I didn't leave a citation like I usually do. Golly gosh, > I guess sometimes I do forget to put the keys in the bowl when I get > him...lol... if I can keep an eye open for sati when it comes and > goes my memory will become stronger? > him=home...I shouldn't post so late at night writing powers are weak at best and when I'm sleepy they are nil. I found some more of my notes along with the passage from the Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' This was written when I was reflecting on the on going argument about anapana-sati and how difficult it is to do and how most people force it or can't do it because it is so subtle most moderns can't get it because of their life style. I found you can't force the mind to do anything, plus I get a headache and frustrated trying to force the mind, I like to word to lay the mind on object or softly bend it. I softly touch the breath (not concept) from the gross sensation around the nostrils to the most subtle sensations of breath as it brings life to the body through the lungs to the blood, which shares its burden of oxygen with the individual cells, which in turn burn brightly with this energy...Some more of my ponderings.... paritta citta (a very small part of the mind) sanna (perception) is a requisite for sati (mindfulness) and that good sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna, anatta-sanna, viraga-sanna) must be trained (sikkha). concentration and effort can you force wisdom? What does sitting and watching sensation come and go have to do with force? The breath comes and goes there is no control in this method. I mentioned control of breath in relation to other actions in daily life. In meditation the breath is left to it's own actions and I just watch the rise and fall of sensation and also watch my reactions to this rise and fall as it can be pleasant or not pleasant. The watching and not controlling just letting breath come and go naturally introduced me to the impermanent nature of the body. Also just watching the natural rise and fall of breath and sensation from the gross to the subtle trains the mind to stay focused no matter what happens in daily life. I want to be like Nina and Sarah someday, now there are some powerful writers! Well there is no 'I' but there are conditions and Nina and Sarah are very powerful and postive writing conditions--kusala--kusala kamma--kusala citta--no doer of these deeds, but still it is very skillful conditions! With Metta, Lisa 45165 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 185 - Enthusiasm/piiti (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] The Visuddhimagga (IV, 100) explains in the section on the first jhåna the difference between pleasant feeling (sukha, translated here as “bliss”) and píti (translated here as “happiness”) which are both jhåna-factors. We read: * "And whenever the two are associated, happiness (píti) is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss (sukha) is the actual experience of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss; but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness (1). Happiness is included in the saòkhårakkhandha; bliss is included in the vedanåkkhandha. If a man exhausted in a desert saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss…" * The different words which are used to describe pleasant feeling and enthusiasm and also the above-quoted simile can help us to have theoretical knowledge of these two realities. If there is mindfulness of realities when they appear, a more precise understanding of their characteristics can be developed. However, we should not try to “catch” particular realities, it depends on conditions of which reality sati is aware. *** 1) This is in the case of the rúpåvacara cittas of the fourth stage of jhåna (of the five-fold system), which are accompanied by happy feeling, sukha, but not by píti. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45166 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:41pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Kel - > > You've made a great point, and it is convincing. Thank you much. > > Kel: > You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean > destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these > moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this > mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining > panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which > is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition > of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to > call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. > Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. > > > > T: I don't have Dr. Mon's book, neither do I have any Abhidhamma > book on my shelf. But it seems that if I keep on discussing the > Abhidhamma with you, Nina or Sukinder, soon I will need to buy a > good one. > > > Thanks. > > > Tep > > ====== Hi Tep and Kel, I find your dialogue about panna (wisdom) quite interesting. I don't claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). It was a dialogue which occurred 500 years after the parinibbina of the Buddha. Nagasena was well versed in the Vinaya, Suttana, and Abhidhamma (an earlier version) before he achieved nibbana: Panna as "Remover" of Defilements: The king said: "Is it through wise attention that people become exempt from further rebirth?" "Yes, that is due to wise attention, and also to wisdom, and the other wholesome dharmas." "But is not wise attention the same as wisdom?" "No, Your Majesty! Attention is one thing, and wisdom another. Sheep and goats, oxen and buffaloes, camels and asses have attention, but wisdom they have not." "Well put, Venerable Nagasena!" The king asked: "What is the mark of attention, and what is the mark of wisdom?" "Consideration is the mark of attention, cutting off that of wisdom." "How is that? Give me a simile!" "You know barley-reapers, I suppose?" "Yes, I do." "How then do they reap the barley?" "With the left hand they seize a bunch of barley, in the right hand they hold a sickle, and they cut off the barley with that sickle." "Just so, Your Majesty, the yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements." Panna as "Illumination": The king then asked: "Then, what is the mark of wisdom?" "Cutting off is, as I said before, one mark of wisdom. In addition, it illuminates." "And how does wisdom illuminate?" "When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly. Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self." "Give me a comparison!" "It is like a lamp which a man would take into a dark house. It would dispel the darkness, would illuminate, shed light, and make the forms in the house stand out clearly." Panna as "Temporary": The king said: 'He who has knowledge, Nâgasena, has he also wisdom?' 'Yes, great king.' 'What; are they both the same?' 'Yes.' 'Then would he, with his knowledge--which, you say, is the same as wisdom--be still in bewilderment or not?' 'In regard to some things, yes; in regard to others, no.' 'What would he be in bewilderment about?' 'He would still be in bewilderment as to those parts of learning he had not learnt, as to those countries he had not seen, and as to those names or terms he had not heard.' 'And wherein would he not be in bewilderment?' 'As regards that which has been accomplished by insight--(the perception, that is,) of the impermanence of all beings, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the non-existence of any soul' 'Then what would have become of his delusions on those points.' 'When knowledge has once arisen, that moment delusion has died away.' 'Give me an illustration.' 'It is like the lamp, which when a man has brought into a darkened room, then the darkness would vanish away, and light would appear.' 'And what, Nâgasena, on the other hand, has then become of his wisdom?' 'When the wisdom has affected that which it has to do, then the wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been acquired by means of it remains--the knowledge of the impermanence of every being, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' 'Give me an illustration, reverend Sir, of what you have last said.' 'It is as when a man wants, during the night, to send a letter, and after having his clerk called, has a lamp lit, and gets the letter written. Then, when that has been done, he extinguishes the lamp. But though the lamp had been put out the writing would still be there.' Metta, James 45167 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... All, I just sent the following letter to Bhikkhu Bodhi in reply to his letter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44485 Any comments welcome, of course. ***** Dear Ven Bodhi, I have considered your comments on the ayatanas carefully and I'm very grateful to you for sharing them. It's a difficult area. I hope you don't mind if I make a few further tentative comments in response. 1. I have just re-read your introduction to the Sa.laayatanavagga in your SN translation as it's relevant to our discussion and I think it's excellent. Not surprisingly, I agree with almost all the comments. I say not surprisingly, because I believe you have accurately and clearly conveyed `the Theravada exegetical tradition' here*. 2. The only comment in this part of the introduction I would question at all is the one about dhamma in this context referring to `nonsensuous objects of consciousness apprehended by introspection, imagination, and reflection.' Certainly, I think it's clear in the Sabba sutta that dhamma refers to dhammayatana, part of the `all' (aayatanasabba) to be known, as the commentary makes clear . As you've said earlier in the introduction, this refers to cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana only. Without the coming together or meeting of the ayatanas, no dhammas could arise and no dhammas could be understood. Like with the knowing of the khandhas, concepts are not included. Many suttas in the khandha vagga make it clear, I believe, that nothing *exists* or can be known apart from the khandhas. I think you would agree with this. 3. With regard to your recent letter, I fully agree with you that the teachings are not concerned with theory and that the suttas are "concerned primarily with *the training of a monk* intent on winning liberation" and should be understood as such. As you say, the `first five external sense bases signify the objects of their respective classes of consciousness'. You then, in your letter, go on to suggest that `dhammayatana, as conceived in Nikaaya Buddhism, can only signify the objects of manovinnana....'. However, I don't believe this follows at all. (Also, where would it leave the cetasikas in terms of ayatanas?) The ayatanas are pointing to the `meeting of various dhammas. Without eye-base, seeing consciousness, visible object, contact and other mental factors, there could be no `coming together' or meeting- place of ayatanas. When it comes to the `meeting' in the mind-door process, there is the meeting of the manayatana (the citta) and the dhammayatana (cetasikas) and sometimes the subtle rupas or nibbana, also dhammayatana, if experienced. So the meaning of ayatanas is to show how dhammas can only arise now because of such a `birth-place' or meeting, not to indicate what is experienced, although in the sense- doors, the object that is experienced is also an ayatana. 4. You point out passages in Salaayatana-sa.myutta and elsewhere which state `Having seen a form with the eye....having cognized a dhamma with mano.....' where dhamma clearly refers to the *object* of manovinnana. In this case, dhamma would be referring to dhammarammana which includes all objects of experience, I believe. As you indicate in so many translations, dhamma can have different meanings in different contexts and I certainly don't agree that to differentiate between dhammayatana and `the objects of manovinnana' is to `move in a direction different from, perhaps even contrary to that of Nikaya Buddhism'. There is a clear distinction between dhammas which arise and can be known directly and all objects experienced, which include those mentally construed and imagined. The entire teachings, as I understand, are concerned with satipatthana and the understanding of the `All' and I don't see any discrepancy here between the Nikayas, Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries in this regard, though there are bound to be many aspects that we cannot fully comprehend, I believe. I respect that you see this matter differently. 5a. With regard to the Pahana sutta (SN 35:24),(`Abandonment 1') and its commentary, I understand the `Abandonment' refers to the abandoning of kilesa (defilements) on account of the ayatanas (or concepts about them). In the following sutta (Abandonment 2) it is stressed that it is abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding (sabba.m abhi~n~na pari~n~naa pahaanaaya), a reference to the third parinna when the defilements are eradicated by the path. Attachments and other kilesa not only arise with the paramattha dhammas as objects, eg seeing, visible object and so on, but also with concepts about these as objects. However, all that can ever be directly known are the `actualities' or `realities' themselves, e.g seeing, visible object, attachment, thinking (the citta or cetasika) etc. 5b.Usually we attach a lot of importance to the feelings which arise on account of the coming together of the various ayatanas. Hence, by way of clarification, I read the comy as stressing the need for the understanding and abandoning of the kilesa on account of the various feelings arising with the different cittas in the process after seeing etc. 5c.Without the dvara (door)of eye-base and so on, there could be no `coming together' of seeing and visible object etc. In the case of the mind door cittas, the dvara is the bhavanga citta preceding the process. Hence the reference to mano (here bhavanga citta) as I understand. Without the preceding bhavanga citta, no coming together of manayatana and dhammayatana in the mind-door process (i.e. cittas and cetasikas, if we exclude subtle rupas for now). Understanding about the dvaras, helps to understand the ayatanas as elements, I think. 5d.Mind consciousness, mano-vinnana refers here to the javana cittas (according to the commentary) and the feelings refer to those accompanying these javana cittas in the mind-door process. So here it is the kilesa on account of any of these feelings, along with the cittas, cetasikas and other objects which should be abandoned. I'm not sure whether dhamma(translated by you as mental phenomena refers here to dhammayatana (as in the previous sutta, but excluding nibbana) or to all objects of consciousness. In any case, as we both agree the comment in the note suggesting that the objects of mind consciousness (dhammaaramma.na) are included in dhammayatana is not correct. Dhammayatana, according to the `Theravada exegetical tradition' does not refer to objects of mind consciousness. I apologise for the length and any repetition in this letter and also for using simplified Pali spelling. I also appreciate that you are too busy to comment further. With respect, Sarah *As you rightly say, it (the Theravada tradition) `understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accommodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nikayas.' As you also say, they `offer an alternative to the five aggregates as a scheme of phenomenological classification.' Later, `As with the aggregates, so with the sense bases, concern with their classification and interactions is governed not by an interest in theoretical completeness but by the practical exigencies of the Buddha's path aimed at liberation from suffering.' ================================= 45168 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Charles P (Hasituppada), --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thankyou for your message. You remember Sarah, you asked me not to > leave but be arround. Therefore I am there, but hope I am not > disturbing the prevailing quiet studious atmosphere from my > occasional interruptions. I know you all have patience. ... S: Thank you very much. Quite the opposite -- rather than disturbing us, you encourage us with your reflections! We're not here to be quiet:-). .... > I do not think that I mentioned any where about my disagreement with > the Buddhist Commentaries or not having any confidence in them. I > have deep respect for the word of the Buddha- Dhamma and Sangha. ... S: The reason I mentioned it is that the Pali commentaries clearly indicate that the Abhidhamma was included at the First Council under the Khuddakanikaya. I wrote a series of posts with regard to this based on the commentary to the Vinaya introduction, the Bahiranidana. See 'Vinaya - intro' in U.P. We find similar accounts in the Atthasalini (comy to the Dhammasangani), the Mahavamsa and other sutta commentaries, such as the commentary to the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta. They all refer to 3 Pitakas. For example, at the end of the account of the First Council in the Bahiranidana, it explains how the 84,000 units of dhamma are comprised and these include the Abhidhamma units. Then: "Thus, this word of the Buddha which is uniform in sentiment taken as a whole (without division), and consists of such divisions as the Dhamma and the Vinaya in the divisions such as those into two and so forth, has been laid down as, 'this is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate, and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma Pitakas, these are the Nikayas from Diigha to Khuddaka, these are the nine Angas commencing with Sutta and these are the eighty-four thousand Units of the Dhamma,' was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction." At the conclusion of the rehearsal, the earth trembled and quaked.... There's so much excellent detail and it's all consistent with what we read in suttas too, such as the 84,000 units, the ninefold division etc. "The whole of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, suttas which contain no stanzas and any other (sayings from the) word of the Buddha not included in the other eight Angas should be known as Veyyakarana (Expositions)." ... >I > am a Buddhist of the Theravada tradition , but I have great respect > for the followers of the Buddha's Dhamma in all other traditions as > well. When it comes to meditation , what ever different methods are > used the final stages of Meditation, concentration , and panna is > the same. > The Mahayana tradition which has a Bodhisatva concept, and with its > Bodhisatta Vow- which is a great expression of Buddhist Karuna, is > different but their meditation does not differ from other traditions. > > My understanding is that there is no where in the Buddhist Countries > a tradition of Meditation based on the Abhidhamma. .... S: Can we say that Meditation is a translation of bhavana and that the Abhidhamma is only concerned with bhavana? Can there be meditation or bhavana now? ..... >I started > reading Abhidhamma quite recently and find that most of what I > wanted to read in Abhidhamma is in the Sutta Pitaka , but the > Abhidhamma gives the details of some of the terms found in the > Suttas which are undoubtedly important. ... S: I agree with this. .... > > Before you misinterpret, I should say that we of Sri Lanka have a > great respect to Abhidhamma, and we believe the Sutta discourses the > Buddha made were for his followers in this world. .... S: I know. That's why I was surprised by your comments about the Councils and origins of the Abhidhamma which are clearly in conflict with the ancient commentaries so carefully preserved in your great country. .... > > I am a Meditator and I have the Buddha's Suttas from > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta to Maha Satipattana to guide me along in > my meditation. However, I admit, I have not read many Suttas. But > even without them when one meditates under the guidance of a > teacher, all instructions( kamatahan) are provided to understand > the dhamma, and a meditator experiences the Dhamma in meditation. .... S: I understand this. I can only say that for myself, the further considering and questioning of what I read in various parts of the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries, helps a lot. .... > > I believe that Samatha Bhavana along with the four Jhana absorptions > are an essential pre-requisite for Vipassana meditation. I believe > in sitting meditation and take Anapanasati as my object of > meditation. I also believe in the Iriyapata meditation to support > sitting meditation. For me the" reality of the instance" is Sati. > Sati or being Mindful is some thing that can be practiced and > developed, which helps in the development of concentration……..etc. ... S: Thank you for elaborating further. Again the commentaries make it very clear, I think, that jhana absorptions are not 'an essential pre-requisite' for vipassana meditation, but I understand that many people don't agree. In any case, I'll look forward to your futher comments on any of the threads and to Tep's anapanasati corner discussions. Please continue to comment, question, disagree and 'disturb' any quiet:-). Thanks again, Charles. Metta, Sarah p.s you mentioned before that we could call you Charles P here, but pls let me know if this has changed:-). =================================== 45169 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Nina, Thank you very much, Nina, for taking your valuable time to reply to my post. As you said, the history could be left alone as the Dhamma is more important, I will leave history at that. I delayed my reply on seeing your post about the problems of your eyesight. I can understand as I suffer from a Glaucoma. Hope you are taking treatment, and wish you,that you soon be well. Please take care. Abhidhamma is undoubtedly a very intellectually stimulating teaching for research on the various moments of citta and their interplay, to understand the no-self nature of a being, which is fundamental to the teachings of the Buddha. With all my respect to you,Nina, my problem stems when it is said that Abhidhamma is the book to be lived and practiced. There are these moments of Lobha, Dosa, Moha, and their opposites and Kusala, akusala cittas, arising and falling away. They are very minutely described in the Abhidhamma teaching, but all that is complementary to Suttas. Suttas also explain, in a more "easy to follow" way all these arising and falling away citta in their "essential" details. Abhidhamma teaches the conditions for the arising of citta. And also the underlying motives for action. Knowledge of this will help us to keep in check our action by body, word and thought, and that is "being mindful". But the Sutta too makes it possible to understand these very same underlying motives for action, and meditation according to Sutta makes one experience the dhamma in a more subtle way, and at a deeper level. A study of the four noble truths and the eight fold path in its detail and practicing it at the three stages of Sila, Samadhi, Panna, provides a meditator necessary elements of dhamma for his practice. Venerable Bikkhu Bodhi's The Noble Eight Fold Path, describes how the moral discipline, the pattern of human behavior in relation to his social environment (silakkhandha), coulbe seen as a preparation for the higher practice for wisdom( paññakkhandha). Sīla, Samādhi,and Pañña, are a gradual preparation for freedom from Samsara and attaining Nibbana. Meditating according to the instructions in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, a meditator, following the precepts, practicing a disciplined simple life style of a yogi, is able to reduce the arising of waves of citta, and thereby the defilements, and silently sit for long hours of meditation to further purify the mind through absorptions. Then the insight meditation may gradually eliminate ignorance (avijja) and through arising of panna take the "mind" away from the bonds of suffering. This is a much quicker way of achieving the results set out in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta, than seeing the "reality of the instance". Those instances of reality, a meditator knows as bare attention- when seeing, only the seeing, when hearing only the hearing, when eating,only the eating etc. That is to say Dear Nina,that to an ordinary earth bound follower of the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha has given in the language of the ordinary "earth bound follower" simple instructions that will lead him to the final goal of Nibbana. May you be well and Happy, With metta, Hasituppada 45170 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 2:33am Subject: Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategies sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ========== Dear Howard, Nina, Jon, KenH (Vince) & All, As we’ve discussed here many times, sometimes we read suttas which seem to be prescribing courses of particular action or behaviour such as in ‘Prescribed by the Wise, AN111,45 (Nyanaponika & Bodhi transl): *** “These three things, O monks, are prescribed by the wise, prescribed by superior people. What three? Giving is prescribed, the going forth into homelessness is prescribed, and service to one’s parents is prescribed....” *** However, again it was stressed how these suttas describe the behaviour of the ariyans. They are not telling us what we should do. Instead they indicate how wise one must be to observe the prescribed actions. In other words, they are descriptions of the ‘wise one’ and how the wise one behaves and what he recommends: *** “The wise prescribe giving, Harmlessness, self-control and taming, Service to one’s dear parents And to those who live the holy life. These are the kinds of deeds To which the wise person resorts. The noble one, possessed of vision, Passes to an auspicious world.” *** We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, we keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be suggesting strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), such as those included in the Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta, MN20 which we've discussed here. Just to repeat from the end of the sutta, we read (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): *** “When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. ‘evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him....and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.” *** It was stressed that we can listen to or read about the advantages of all kinds of kusala with panna(right understanding) and this is ‘suta mayaa pa~n~naa'. There can be further considering and wise reflection with panna and this is ‘cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa’. Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ do whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the dhamma (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. In other words, satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa appearing, not making it happen by one’s will. What happens is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. We don’t need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of reality appears, nothing else. Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with attachment to having awareness arise often. We’ve accumulated ignorance for aeons, so we shouldn’t expect any quick development now. The most important thing is that it should be the right path at this moment. Metta, Sarah ======= 45171 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, Thank you for your always warm welcome messages. _____________________________________________________________________ S: Thank you very much. Quite the opposite -- rather than disturbing us,you encourage us with your reflections! We're not here to be quietS: The reason I mentioned it is that the Pali commentaries clearly indicate that the Abhidhamma was included at the First Council under the Khuddakanikaya…………….. ___________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: I thought Kuddhakanikaya was a later addition to Tipitaka. I have read in many place and even in the Internet that only the Suttapitaka and the Vinayapitaka were recited at the Council by the Venerbla Ananda and Venerable Upali. Who read the Abhidhamma Pitaka at the first Council ? However, I do not wish to have polmics with you on this question. If you say so I will accept it on the face value. ____________________________________________________________________ S: Can we say that Meditation is a translation of bhavana and that the Abhidhamma is only concerned with bhavana? Can there be meditation or bhavana now? _________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: Meditation is I think the English translation of the word Bhavana. "Bhavana" is defined as the cultivation of the mind (mental cultivation, if you like). Abhidhamma is concerned with the Paramatta Dhamma, explaining the beings( satta) as a conditioned reality, a pancakkhandha. In reality there is no identifiable being. Bhavana, is what the Buddha taught, and instructed through the Mahasatipattana Sutta for the human beings to practice to allow the purification of mind to attain Nibbana. It could be done now as it was done before, and could be done in the future. __________________________________________________________________ S: I understand this. I can only say that for myself, the further considering and questioning of what I read in various parts of the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries, helps a lot. _____________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: An advice given to a meditator or if you like a Yogi, at the outset is to stop reading during or in between meditation sessions. This is to avoid confusion and mental disturbance. There are periods set aside for reading or discussion of Dhamma. _______________________________________________________________ S: Thank you for elaborating further. Again the commentaries make it very clear, I think, that jhana absorptions are not 'an essential pre-requisite' for vipassana meditation, but I understand that many people don't agree. In any case, I'll look forward to your futher comments on any of the threads and to Tep's anapanasati corner discussions. Please continue to comment, question, disagree and 'disturb' any quiet:-). _____________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: There is no where in the Sutta where the Buddha spoke about a dry Vipassana. The word "Bhavana" is an all inclusive term that takes in both Samatha and Vipassana. I think that mind without Samatha is not purified enough to have insight or penetrate into the anicca dukkha anatma and open it self to panna. _____________________________________________________________________ p.s you mentioned before that we could call you Charles P here, but pls let me know if this has changed:-). ____________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada Says: What is in a name after all, but this is a moment of Lobha, I love to be called Hasituppada, what more could you wish to be, more than a smile of an Arahat !!! Thank you dear Sarah, for this occasion for a Dhamma discussion with some one intelligent,serene and kind like you. With metta, Hasituppada. 45172 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 4:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) gazita2002 Hello Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, .....snip.... > > BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being > > namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know > > where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, > > would be greatly appreciated. > .... > S: Suggestions: > > a) most detailed by far is the Visuddhimagga, ch XV111 on, I believe. Do > you have a copy of Vism? ...... Azita: I do have a copy, given by Chittapala. > b) briefer details in CMA, p349 onwards. The purification of view refers > here to the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda nana. ........ > c) best detailed summary I can think of is A.Sujin's in 'Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas' > http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf > on-line p.195 onwards(just key in the page no at the bottom of the pdf) > If you have a pink hard copy that Betty gave some of us, it's p.194 > onwards. Azita: I have a copy of this too. > d) Some helpful posts in U.P. under 'Stages of Insight 1', but I just took > a look and see there are some posts there in error. You might find #22710 > of Nina's helpful because I think you also asked about the parinnas and instead it was left that you'd do a little research first if I > recall:-). Azita: yes, I was expecting a quick answer, and realised later that there is no quick answer to any of the dhamma really. It has to happen stage by stage, as the understanding grows little by little. > And yes, K.Sujin usually brings any questions about stages of insight back > to the present moment and the present concerns and motives...Is there any > understanding of seeing now? Of visible object now? And so on... > > Hope this helps, > > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: yes, this is plenty of info. thank you patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 45173 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:55am Subject: Forest Bliss ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Ease of Serene Calm : A radiant deity once asked the Buddha: Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peacefully living the Noble life, Eating but a single meal a day, Why is their appearance so serene ? Buddha responded: They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future, They live by, just with what is present, Therefore is their appearance so serene ! By urging towards the unreal future, By longing back into the lost past, Fools verily dry up and wither away, Like a green creeper all cut down... _______________________________________ Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45174 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategi es upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - With much respect, I must tell you that I am 95% in disagreement with you on the following. Some comments follow in context below. In a message dated 5/6/05 5:34:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ========== Dear Howard, Nina, Jon, KenH (Vince) & All, As we’ve discussed here many times, sometimes we read suttas which seem to be prescribing courses of particular action or behaviour such as in ‘Prescribed by the Wise, AN111,45 (Nyanaponika & Bodhi transl): *** “These three things, O monks, are prescribed by the wise, prescribed by superior people. What three? Giving is prescribed, the going forth into homelessness is prescribed, and service to one’s parents is prescribed....â€? *** However, again it was stressed how these suttas describe the behaviour of the ariyans. They are not telling us what we should do. Instead they indicate how wise one must be to observe the prescribed actions. In other words, they are descriptions of the ‘wise one’ and how the wise one behaves and what he recommends: ---------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. The meaning is plain, and there is not the slightest suggestion of what you get out of this. ---------------------------------- *** “The wise prescribe giving, Harmlessness, self-control and taming, Service to one’s dear parents And to those who live the holy life. These are the kinds of deeds To which the wise person resorts. The noble one, possessed of vision, Passes to an auspicious world.â€? *** We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, we keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. -------------------------------- Howard: I don't get what you are pointing out here. -------------------------------- A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be suggesting strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), such as those included in the Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta, MN20 which we've discussed here. Just to repeat from the end of the sutta, we read (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): *** “When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. ‘evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him....and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.â€? *** ----------------------------------- Howard: What is your point here, Sarah? ----------------------------------- It was stressed that we can listen to or read about the advantages of all kinds of kusala with panna(right understanding) and this is ‘suta mayaa pa~n~naa'. There can be further considering and wise reflection with panna and this is ‘cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa’. Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ do whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the dhamma (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. In other words, satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa appearing, not making it happen by one’s will. What happens is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. We don’t need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of reality appears, nothing else. ---------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha repeatedly gave instructions for practice, and he urged their carrying out. Thius is so eminently clear that it boggles my mind how some folks strain to see the matter otherwise. ---------------------------------- Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with attachment to having awareness arise often. --------------------------------- Howard: All development has to start from where we are, and not from where we hope to be. One who is without idea of self has already made considerable progress. The process doesn't begin at that stage, for that stage has to first be attained. We start, in fact, in the midst of ignorance, and we must engage in the practice taught by the Buddha to get oneself off ground zero. -------------------------------------- We’ve accumulated ignorance for aeons, so we shouldn’t expect any quick development now. --------------------------------------- Howard: True. And without practice we can expect *no* development, not even slow. -------------------------------------- The most important thing is that it should be the right path at this moment. -------------------------------------- Howard: To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. With no path, one just does what feels good and remains enmeshed in craving and ignorance forever. -------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45176 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategi es sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > With much respect, I must tell you that I am 95% in disagreement > with you > on the following. .... S: At least there's the 5% and we both have computers operating right now:-). Actually, I'm grateful for your quick response and may say more, but it won't be until after the weekend now. Hope others commnet/discuss further in the meantime. Metta, Sarah p.s I think we got our computer probs fixed yesterday afternoon after a long of hassle(some configuration things)-- thx for your concern. I really hope you get yours sorted out too, Howard. Glad you had a good trip too. ============== 45177 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, Don't worry, it is a matter of the right spectacles, just the optician who changed them. I take care of control etc. don't worry. It is just old age. Perhaps a few others also get tired eyes from many long Emails, I do not know. No, I do not stop, only this coming week we are off on vacation. When back, do continue with accumulations. When you review accumulations in your own words I can see whether something should be added. Thank you for the offer (off line) to frwd to me texts. Anumodana, Nina. op 05-05-2005 22:49 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> All the time I am aware of your weaken eyes and the pains that are > resulted from readings long emails. I remember one of your recent > emails saying that you are going to stop answering emails soon. 45178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 More on Prescribing and Strategies buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and Howard (Attn: Sukinder, Nina and Ken H) - I read through the message #45170 (Musings12 - More on Prescribing and Strategies) with great interest because all "the points" that have been repeated over and over again by Nina, Sarah and Sukinder in all the DSG posts are faithfully recited by Sarah here. >Sarah: Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst >describing and giving examples such as these. >However,the panna knows that in fact, we do whatever >conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, > is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand >whatever the dhamma(reality) is at any given time so that >insight can develop. This is bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa >" the real development of satipatthana. In other words, > satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana >understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa >appearing, not making it happen by one will. What happens >is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. >We don't need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, >because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of >reality appears, nothing else. Panna has to develop with >detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies > or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also >develop with patience to know what isn't known, not with >attachment to having awareness arise often. >Howard: To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. >With no path, one just does what feels good and remains >enmeshed in craving and ignorance forever. T: Sarah, I agree with every nice thing you have mentioned concerning Satipatthana and understanding with sampajanna. The Satipatthana Sutta is a major discourse, it was not meant to be for beginners to follow and ignore everything else of the Teachings. It is not the only discourse the Buddha taught. So your "points" are only a part of what the Buddha taught. Maybe they are too advanced. Frankly, how often can you be "aware of the present nama or rupa appearing" in the present moment? How well does your Satipatthana scheme work when the mind is attacked by hindrances? What do you do in order to clear your mind from hindrances? Does the Satipatthana in the present moment work when you have wandering mind, that is not steadied internally and quieted? Even Nina has acknowledged several times that she is a beginner, a worldling too, like the rest of us. Probably, a much more advanced worldling! Is it possible that these "points" you have made are ideal, suitable for advanced practitioners only? And, is it possible that there are other practical aspects of the Teachings that have been overlooked, or rejected by Nina, Sarah and Sukinder? I believe the answers are "yes" for both questions. Thank you, Howard, for explaining clearly (in message # 45174) that there are other aspects of the Buddha's Teachings that were designed for practitioners to become ariyans -- to be followed methodically. don't be confused about "self" directing the effort and "lobha" or tanha being involved, you've gotta do what you've gotta do. These other practical aspects of the Teachings are very effective when the "Satipatthana in the present moment" fails to work because the mental defilements are numerous and strong. Forget about "self" and "lobha" for a moment, your hair and dress are on fire now! Apparently, Sarah is having trouble believing the major suttas that give "instructions" to the monks for the practice that leads to abandonment (pahana) of mental defilements, e.g. MN 20 (Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta) <"When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. `evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....when he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him.> Indeed there are several other suttas that give instructions for dealing with kilesas, to abandon them, and to practice such that the mind is "steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated". How can panna work effectively otherwise? Of course, once the mind is calm because of viveka (free from sensuous things, akusala vitakka, and karmically unwholesome things) then the Stipatthana in the present moment will have the strong support needed for it to work well. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > Actually, I'm grateful for your quick response and may say more, but it > won't be until after the weekend now. > > Hope others commnet/discuss further in the meantime. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I think we got our computer probs fixed yesterday afternoon after a > long of hassle(some configuration things)-- thx for your concern. I really > hope you get yours sorted out too, Howard. Glad you had a good trip too. > ============== 45179 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:38am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I did in my > Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied to > nibbaana, this is a special case. > Paññatti do not have these four. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. Now I am clear. Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. Nibbana is a special case. But I would like to ask you. Does pannatti not have a function? With respect, Htoo Naing 45180 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:41am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause. again. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, If this is easier for you, you could get from the archives all the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV and Tiika studies, beginning with rupakkhandha, and all these four items are dealt with. Then cittas, and now we are going to start with akusala cetasikas. We are all the time dealing with 1. characteristic 2. function 3. manifestation 4. proximate cause Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much. With respect, Htoo Naing 45181 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Rob K, I do have a very special reason for asking this question. The Buddha just said 'when bhikkhu breathes in long, he knows he breathes in long'. May I ask another time? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air' 'note nose, mouth, lip' etc in mahaasatipatthaana sutta? With respect, Htoo Naing 45182 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (345) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma The 2nd kamma in this 3rd set of 4-kamma is called upapajja-vedaniiya kamma. This kamma gives rise to its effect in the immediate next life or the second life when the current life is assumed as the 1st life. This kamma derives from 7th javana citta when kamma are being committed. The third kamma in this set is aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma. Aparaa means 'further away' or 'second'. This kamma gives rise to its effect or results in the 2nd next life or 3rd life if the current life is assumed as the 1st life. This kamma derives from the middle 5 javana cittas out of 7 total successive javana cittas. This kamma is so strong that its effects are there starts from the 2nd next life or 3rd life till cuti citta of arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45183 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (346) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma Kamma is always there behind us. Kamma is our shade. We cannot see kamma. But we can see the results that kamma gives. Kamma is our shade. Kamma is our properties. Kamma is our wealth. The first 3 kamma in this 3rd set of 4-kamma have been discussed in the previous posts. Among them aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma is so strong that their potentials never go anywhere and they always always follow as like our shade. This happens. Because we did. Is it fair? It is. But we cannot see how many lives that we lived in our past and how many kamma were done when we were in those respective life. And actualy sense, we do not need to worry these past kamma. Our duty is to clean kamma as clean as possible till kamma is completely clean. When this happens, or when beings become arahats, there will not be any more kamma that will give rise to new rebirth. But old kamma do not go away. Old kamma follow us like money-lenders. As long as we are living in the samsara or rounds of birth-rebirth they will be following. Even when beings become arahats and become completely pure, kamma will be following them as long as they are there in existence. This is true down to cuti citta or arahats. Once cuti citta arises, there is no way to follow for these kamma and then all these kamma become ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45184 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:53am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - In your reply to Nina you wrote Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. >Nibbana is a special case. > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But aren't they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I > did > in my > > Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied > to > > nibbaana, this is a special case. > > Paññatti do not have these four. > > Nina. > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Nina, > > Thanks. Now I am clear. Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any > of 4 features, I think. Nibbana is a special case. > > But I would like to ask you. > > Does pannatti not have a function? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 45185 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:33am Subject: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing Dear All, The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. The confusion is that those people who are good at abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. Jaananti means 'to know'. Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45186 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > In your reply to Nina you wrote > > Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. > >Nibbana is a special case. > > > > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But aren't > they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are not first-hand object. And never can they be. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45187 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 10:28am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo: I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your answer was as follows: Htoo: > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you discover perception as perception? How? Respectfully and with kind regards, Tep Your Dhamma friend =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo - > > > > In your reply to Nina you wrote > > > > Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, > I think. Nibbana is a special case. > > > > > > > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But > aren't > > they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? > > 45188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada buddhistmedi... Dear Ken H (and Hasituppada) - [A reply to KenH message # 45133] Hasituppada's reply to your earlier message that "caused a bit too much damage" is along the same line of thought with me. But there are a few issues remaining for which I would like to make a happy ending. KenH: More to the point, that way of concentrating has nothing to do with the absolute reality taught by the Buddha. While there is thinking about the human body in the act of walking etc., there is no awareness of rupa (or nama). T: In this message you mentioned "insight into conditioned dhammas" and said it was the "momentary arising of panna to take another conditioned nama or rupa as its object". Honestly speaking, have you ever had such experience without using a samatha meditation as described in the Kayagatasati Sutta? I have often had such "awareness of rupa and nama" while I do walking meditation slowly or breathing meditation. > Hasituppada's reply: "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. (Mahasatipatthana Sutta.) ------------------- KenH : Again, I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation, but have you noticed the wording, "There is the case where a monk remains focussed"? It is not, "Perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness": it is simply a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness. T: This issue is not a sidetrack one for me. So please allow me to say a few words here. Whether that is "a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness" or "perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness", the effect on me is the same. To me the sutta elaborates on the detailed activity of a prototype meditator (call him a "monk" or a "bhikkhu") that I can use as my model. I don't waste time worrying too much about the wordings and their interpretation the way you do, because that does not benefit me as a meditator. I am not a language expert. I am not a philosopher. It is not my concern whether this or that object of meditation is a concept (pannatti) or a reality (paramattha) as long as the Buddha recommended it; it must work for me too. I am not a debater either. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Hasituppada (and Tep), > > 45189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Charles P, (Hasituppada), Thank you for your kind letter and I understand your views. I agree that the suttas explain all, but personally, I could not understand the deep message without Abhidhamma and Commentaries. I understand that people have different opinions on this. The Abhidhamma helps me to understand the characteristic of what appears now: any phenomenon of our daily life, kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. Or just plain seeing and hearing. Understanding those is important because in their train defilements often follow, even very subtle lobha. I am so grateful to have more understanding of my defilements. Where would I be without the Abhidhamma. I cannot be without the suttas, the Buddha exhorts us in such a personal way with great compassion. The words of the Buddha make a deep impression, not to be forgetful of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Time and again he speaks about the six doors, sometimes in a longer discourse, sometimes in a shorter one. Thus, ideal for us are the whole of the Tipitaka. Also Vinaya helps us laypeople, reminds us of our vices. I just have to close down my Email now for a week because of vacation. Nina. op 06-05-2005 10:49 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > Thank you very much, Nina, for taking your valuable time to reply to > my post. As you said, the history could be left alone as the > Dhamma is more important, I will leave history at that. 45190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause nilovg Dear Htoo, I am on the verge of closing Email. Of course paññatti has a function, it helps us to understand realities. But it is not classified with characteristic, function etc. since it is not a reality. Nina. op 06-05-2005 17:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > But I would like to ask you. > > Does pannatti not have a function? 45191 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo and all who are "good at the Abhidhamma" - Htoo : >The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto > vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' > > This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. > > Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without > inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. > T: How much knowing is considered "detailed"? Knowing going, and what else? What is the purpose of knowing the "going" in detail? Is it the same as being aware of the walking in the present moment? H: > The confusion is that those people who are good at > abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not > satipatthana and so on. > T: Supposed that they were right, then why did the Buddha include this 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going in detail' in Kayanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta ? Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > The confusion is that those people who are good at abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. > > But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. > > Jaananti means 'to know'. > > Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45192 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 2:48pm Subject: James' Contribution [was Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna...] buddhistmedi... Hi James and Kel - In message # 45166, James wrote : J: I don't claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). T: I must admit that my knowledge of the Abhidhamma is only at the lowest rung of the "sutamaya panna" level. Yet, there has been just little reading done so far. Thank you for the quotes about panna you have provided from the Milinda Panha - a great source of knowledge. . The following list of key points in the Milinda Panha will go to my notebook: Panna = wisdom = knowledge. -- Due to wise attention, wisdom and kusala dhammas, "people become exempt from further rebirth ". -- "The yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements." -- "When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly. Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self." -- 'When knowledge has once arisen, that moment delusion has died away.' -- 'When the wisdom has affected that which it has to do, then the wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been acquired by means of it remains--the knowledge of the impermanence of every being, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' The last item is most interesting. Maybe it has something to do with accumulations. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Kel, > > I find your dialogue about panna (wisdom) quite interesting. I don't > claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it > is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer > some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. > The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of > King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an > Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). It was a dialogue which occurred 500 > years after the parinibbina of the Buddha. Nagasena was well versed > in the Vinaya, Suttana, and Abhidhamma (an earlier version) before he > achieved nibbana: > 45193 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Does abhidhamma have anything to say about groups such as rupa kalapas or the mental body with respect to these four features? Are groups of realities (khandhas) considered to be real? Larry 45194 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities-Phil gazita2002 Hello Phil and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Azita, and all > > It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > > > easier to understand myself in those terms. ......... BTW, Azita, as I was tidying up I was listening to the India > talks. You were asking about the rupa of motion, for some tips about > how to recognize it. Of course, none were forthcoming! I think they > could have been. If someone has had a moment of direct understanding > of a rupa or nama, couldn't they tell us about it? "I was walking > down the street and a leaf landed on my nose and I had a direct > understanding of motion" or something like that. If they were a > trusted dhamma friend, that could condition awareness of such > moments when they arose, even if we weren't clinging to expecting > them. Is it verbotten or impossible to talk about one's moments of > direct understanding? Azita: In relation to my question about motion, I gained some understanding that there is little point of someone else telling me about their experience. For 'me' to know motion as a reality, it must be experienced by Sati and Panna and then there will be knowing. Anyway, why look for a reality which may be hard to know, when there are realities arising and falling all the time eg seeing - visible object. As A. Sujin suggests 'don't go away from this present moment'. I guess if motion doesn't appear then there can be no knowing it until it does appear. Hope that makes sense. Would that mean there was clinging to the > experience? If it helped condition a friend's moment of awareness, > wouldn't the clinging to the experience be worth it? Yes, there > would be mana, but there's always mana. Azita: I don't think it would help in the ultimate sense. > Is it impossible to identify moments of direct understanding so > explicitly? > > Well, that's an interesting question that just popped out. Azita: If Sati and Panna arise and are aware of those moments of direct understanding - which is also Panna - then there is a type of identifying, but not with a self. > > Also BTW and this *is* verbotten but may I say Azita that I think > you have a very lovely voice? Something beguiling about it, a kind > of good-humoured sheepishness. Azita:-) could have something to do with my father, all his brothers and his dad being sheep shearers and we ate large amounts of lamb and mutton when I was a child, and I called my mum 'maaaaa' :-) It is causing me lobha. Lovha? Could > I ask you to speak in a less pleasant way in future recorded talks, > like ....Sarah for example? Sarah, just joking!!!! There are so many > lovely women's voices in these talks....sigh... Azita: it is just sound, arising and falling away. Maybe I should start to speak like an Aussie shearer #@%*& - > Metta, > Phil > p.s We're off for a few days to Naomi's hometown. I won't be able > to respond to threads for a few days. Azita: hope you had a pleasant time in Naomi's hometown. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 45195 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Htoo) - I'm sure that Htoo will be replying to your post and with a far more definitive Abhidhammic perspective than I, but I would like to give my understanding on this matter also, if I may butt in. In a message dated 5/6/05 1:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Htoo: I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your answer was as follows: Htoo: > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? --------------------------------------------- Howard: My understanding is that when the mind is engaged in thinking, which is something that goes on "all" the time(!), it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas such as hair, skin, organs, trees and telescopes, but those "things" are not actually occurring things at all any more than a unicorn is, but are merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed, if you will, on those phenomena that actually do occur. However, we may legitimately accord to "them" a degree of reality that is greater than that attributable to a "unicorn" in that they are well founded, being based on patterned collections of interrelated experiential realities which are not, themselves, imagined products of thought processes, but are, instead, directly arising as actual objects of consciousness. So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc that are not, themselves, thought-process-produced but which serve as the basis for our perceiving of "a gingko tree". That so-called perceiving of a gingko tree is really a process more akin to imagining than actual perceiving, for there is no tree except as a mental construct. ------------------------------------------------ Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you discover perception as perception? How? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur, and they are among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur, they are "real". (Thinking processes actually occur too, but not much of "what is thought about" actually occurs.) As to awareness of perceptions, we are, of course, aware all the time that we recognize things, that, for example, we are able to distinguish between hardness, say, and redness. (We also *think* that we perceive trees, but closer examination shows that to be illusory I believe.) So recognitions really occur and we are aware of them, and in that sense they are real. Of course, if 'real' should mean "self-existent", however, then certainly sa~n~na, as is the case with all khandhic phenomena, is quite unreal. ----------------------------------------------- Respectfully and with kind regards, Tep Your Dhamma friend ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45196 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities-Phil philofillet Hi Azita > Azita: In relation to my question about motion, I gained some > understanding that there is little point of someone else telling me > about their experience. For 'me' to know motion as a reality, it > must be experienced by Sati and Panna and then there will be knowing. Ph: Yes, of course you're right. It is enough, as another friend put it, to have our attention bent toward the experience, subtly, without clinging to expectation of results. Thus repeated listening to Kh Sujin and others on the importance of directly understanding these realities, experiencing their characteristics is more than enough. The similes that are often given re cetasikas by commentaries to clarify their characteristics (e.g initial thinking the bee hovering over the flower, applied thinking the bee diving into the flower) do help - but that's different from someone trying to share an ephemeral experience. I can understand that now - moments of impatience come and go. I also liked when you - I think it was you - asked Kh Sujin *why* annica is dukkha. I had been thinking the same thing, as it happens. And then Kh Sujin asked "what is the greatest dukkha?" and there was discussion about that. I am really enjoying listening to the talks. As for your voice being "sheepish" that wasn't quite the right word. I didn't mean it in a negative way. Something gentle, I guess. Only sound, as you say, but we do know that the rupa of voice is conditioned by the citta behind it. These days when I listen I often feel lobha for Jon's voice, and his warm laugh, and that of another man, a New Zealender, I guess (not Rob K, unless he had a cold) who speaks with great enthusiasm about Abhidhamma. It is silly to think about people's voices, but we are so accustomed to making tiny little passing judgements based in mana. On the list, I might look at someone's choice of words, and judge them, and when listening, judge their voice. Absolutely meaningless, in ultimate terms, but we spend so much time thinking about ultimately meaningless things, stories etc. At least I know I'm doing it. There is so much mana, all the time. Mana is a good example of a word that is better left in Pali (there aren't that many of them, in my opinion) because it is much wider and deeper in meaning than what we think of by "conceit" Thanks, we had a nice time during our little "Golden Week" (as they call it here in Japan) early summer vacation. Metta, Phil 45197 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Nina, I know you are not there to receive this message. But you may read it on your return. I write this at 2.41 a.m. on the 7th May. I had gone to bed with an unbearable pain in my tooth. I had gone to the Dentist yesterday evening to have a tooth in the upper jaw filled. I told her about the pain in the tooth in the lower jaw. She said she had to attend to it on another day and gave me an appointment for the 23rd. The pain was bearable therefore I did not mind. On coming home the pain on that tooth became increasingly painful. I thought I had fever. I took an Asparine and went to bed at about 9 p.m. Little by little the pain was getting worse, I was wandering how I could persuade the Dentist to take me urgently to treat my tooth. I was between short spells of sleep and waking up in pain . I could not sleep any longer and the pain was overwhelming. I looked at the time. It was 1. 58 a.m. Then I sat on the bed as comfortably as I could and began to watch the pain. Then I see that the pain is in the mind, even though the problem is with the tooth in the lower jaw. Both the jaw and the tooth are rupa. And rupa cannot feel the pain. It is the mind that feels the pain. But the pain itself is rupa. Therefore, the source of the pain, cause of the pain and the pain it-self are rupas. Mind in reality has no pain, but it only gets involved with the rupas and gets related to it in pain. If that involvement is understood, the pain should disappear or subside. That is exactly what happened. The pain is there but very much more bearable. Then I thought of your message to me. I thought I have a reply to it, and knew that you will not be there to receive it. But I did not want to forget this instance of easing of pain, by being aware of the pain, not by intellectually understanding what caused the pain, but experiencing the inter play between nama-rupa, and cause and effect. Now I am seeing the mind with no more an acute pain, but a mind with a bearable pain. I see in that mind calmness and satisfaction (sukha) as against what it was about one hour and eighteen minutes ago ( the time now is 3.06 am). This what you write in your message: "The Abhidhamma helps me to understand the characteristic of what Appears now: any phenomenon of our daily life, kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. Or just plain seeing and hearing. Understanding those is important because in their train defilements often follow, even very subtle lobha. I am so grateful to have more understanding of my defilements. " And you finish your message: "Thus, ideal for us are the whole of the Tipitaka. Also Vinaya helps us laypeople, reminds us of our vices.I just have to close down my Email now for a week because of vacation." You say that Abhidhamma helps you to understand the characteristics of what appears now: any phenomena of our daily life…….. That is so, but what you don't see is the MIND WITHOUT THE CHARACTERISTIC OF WHAT HAD APPEARS. That is what happens in Bhavana (meditation) when you become aware of the arising of a thought , that thought passes away and the MIND is SILENT until the arising of the next thought. It is that silent mind between the two thoughts moments which is the reality of the instance, not the phenomena that existed before and your understanding it as kusala or akusala or pleasant or unpleasant- any phenomena of daily life. A prisoner in his prison cell suffers being secluded, kept away from his family the comfort of his warm bed etc. But when he is released from the prison; His mind is released from the sorrow and is happy and joyful. A man carrying a valuable treasure along a path which is surrounded by a forest and known to be frequented by way side bandits, is gripped with fear, but when he has traversed the path and arrives at the protected area his fear disappears, he is safe and is happy and joyful. So is the man suffering from an illness. He is in pain and discomfort. Once he is cured of his illness, the pain and discomfort passes away and he is happy and joyful. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the fear of the man carrying the treasure. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the sadness of the prisoner. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the pain and discomfort of the man who was ill. But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from pain and discomfort. (4am). My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed hoping to catch a little sleep. Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, With metta, Hasituppada 45198 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" and "realities". Let me list some highlights of your explanation: -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on those phenomena that actually do occur". -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc." -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur", they are "real". T: I really like your way with words, Howard! Now, just for the sake of expanding my understanding further, let me refer to Acharn Sujin's definitions of Pannatti and Paramattha in her e-book "Summary of Paramatthadhamma", 2000, in the following 2 paragraphs: "The paramattha-dhamma are realities that truly exist but not entities, persons or the self. The paramattha-dhamma are only citta, cetasika and rupa of distinct characteristics and signs that arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away. Whenever one does not know the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rupa as paramattha- dhamma that arise and fall away in very rapid sequence, then there is knowledge of pannatti (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of rupa and nama, which arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as something. Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real. "Each day pannatti hides the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind so that one does not know realities as they truly are: that the reality appearing through the eyes, is not an entity, a person or the self, but only colors and features that appear when in contact with the cakkhuppasada [eye-sense]. Only when panna has developed until it knows the truth when seeing could it attenuates attachment to the reality as a self, an entity or a person, and know the differences between paramattha- arammana and pannatti-arammana. The same applies to the ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. [endquote] May I ask you and all other DSG members a question? According to the above definition, the paramattha-dhamma "arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away", then is it correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have yathabhuta- nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) in every moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch them the moment they arise or fall away? My doubt is supported by A. Sujin's own words : "Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real". Since everything appears as a "concept" to us (the worldlings), then why do some worldling DSG members try so hard to make me feel that it is wrong to take "concepts" as the objects of my meditation, eventhough they themselves don't know or see the realities? Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Htoo) - > > I'm sure that Htoo will be replying to your post and with a far more > definitive Abhidhammic perspective than I, but I would like to give my > understanding on this matter also, if I may butt in. > > In a message dated 5/6/05 1:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Dear Htoo: > > I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your > answer was as follows: > > Htoo: > > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > > > > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any > of then "first-hand" object? Why? > --------------------------------------------- 45199 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism foamflowers Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. The Buddha set up rituals that could act as aids or vehicles in the inner journey towards the discovery of one's own true nature, a raft to carry us to the other shore so to speak. I really do think that meditation, the study of sutra and learning the Abhidhamma are aids to help me break free of suffering but I don't want to go blindly into the study of Abhidhamma. Plus categorical denial of ritual in Buddhism got me thinking; what is all that chanting, meditation, instruction, and study all about if not part of a system of teachings to unbind us from suffering? How does ritual play a part in understanding and transcendence? Here are some of my questions about religion and religious study that I've asked myself over the years and still question all the time. And now I question why I want to study the Abhidhamma. Why do I want to learn Abhidhamma and what is my motivation and why am I asking about ritual right now as I get into the study of Abhidhamma? Rituals and Religious Activities are they aids to breaking the fetters that bind us to suffering? What is ritual? What does it look like in a Buddhist context? Relic worships, chanting, reading of doctrine and sutra, meditation; what are the main components of ritual in general and in context to Dhamma and Buddhism? Entering the Temple Shrine room, the ritualized leaving daily life in reverence of the sacredness of ritual space, triple prostration of honor before the Buddha image. Kneeling with palms pressed together before the heart and head, bowing full body to the floor head on the ground. Monks and lay folk both do this depending on traditions. Lay folk also give reverence to monks and nuns in this manor. Chanting in Pali an ancient religious language of Gotama Buddha by both lay people and monks, blessings are given, discourses of the Buddha are listened too as the lay people sit lower than the Monks, usually on the floor with feet turned away from the Teacher Monk. Special housing, clothing, social rights to distance religious body from lay community…ritual plays a part in establishing authority? Merit for both oneself and others through ritual acts and daily giving for a better life in the next rebirth are a large part of daily life for most native Buddhist. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Practice: Meditation, visualization, liturgy (collection of formulas and other texts), mantra and text recitation, image veneration, and initiation. Structure, elements and methods of the Abhidhamma, investigation into why it was established as important part of Buddhist doctrine. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Theravada ritual begins with three particular Pali chants. Buddha vandana, or Homage to the Buddha, is known also by its first two Pali words: Namo tassa. Ritual is work? Can we look without bias at tradition and ritual outside of our own culture? When establishing a new religion in our life how does bias affect our understanding of doctrine, practice and rituals? Aversion to creator gods, thoughtless ritual and ceremony, blind faith; does that color the way we see our new adopted religion or philosophy? I'm I wearing rose-colored glasses? What is the origin of our/my belief on ritual? Has the meaning of ritual changed over time? How do people who come to Buddhism and Abhidhamma let go of their old belief system of ritual so it will not color the long established ritual of the religious study of the Abhidhamma text and Buddhism? Can we really look at another religion outside of our own belief system without bias and use it for a tool to unbind from suffering? Rituals and privileged status, scholars and practitioners, how does intellectual powers give status to the study of Abhidhamma and Buddhism in general? How does tradition of those who are part of Buddhism and study Abhidhamma play a part in their actions and performance? Where is wisdom located? Can the body know? Is ritual empirically based? Does the body have to be involved for immediate, non-conceptual wisdom? Does my use and understanding of the Pali language help or hinder letting go of conceptual grasping and ignorance of self? Is there self-aggrandizing power in knowing what few know? What are the goals of understanding Nama and Rupa? What theoretical strategies, conceptual tools and analytical categories are used in the Abhidhamma and is this study ritualized reading? What is the internal logic, teaching aid to be taken seriously or lightly? How is Abhidhamma structured, what are it's basic components; metaphysical, phenomenal, political, psychological, status quo, what else? What is the difference between reading religious text and reading daily text? Is reading doctrine like the sutra and Abhidhamma a way to transform or reveal, uncover what is sacred, a ritual act of transformation through understanding? Can reading not be reading and text not be text? What is the difference between ritualized reading and casual reading? The Five Precepts and taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is this an initiation ritual? Taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, a transformation, a initiation, taking and following the precepts and recitation of precepts, formative and transformative. Initiation and ritual an aid in letting go of old hurtful habits and conditioning and a tool to aid memory in establishing more healthful habit patterns for building a stable foundation to make that leap into the unknown? With Metta, Lisa