45400 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and others - I am glad that the two suttas we have read give us a clear understanding of the practically-zero chance the uninstructed worldings have to escape the samsara. T: I like it very much, Phil, that you are a real fighter even when the chance to lose is gigantic. T: In the last paragraph of your post the word "random" was mentioned twice; the second time I read the word a sanna arose in me. It turned on the "memory switch" of mine and I recalled a sutta (Thai version) about how small the chance of an uninstructed (ignorant) wordling to come back to the world again after he died. The Buddha compared the chance of returning to the world to the chance that a deep-sea turtle would rise up to the water surface exactly at the same spot it did the last time! This is a simile of randomness to me. One may say that the chance to win a casino game is a lot higher than the chance that an ignorant person may have another return to the world! Phil: Continuing to read your posts will help me to keep an open mind toward more intentional ways of developing mindfulness. And I hope that you too will come to see that there is nothing pessimistic or passive about finding value in apparently random (but not so - there are conditions at work) moments of mindfulness in daily life. T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, Phil. This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach too. Thank you for the suggestion. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, and all > > > Good timing for me, Tep. I was just reading SN 22.99 (THe > Leash) and reflecting on this very topic. > (snipped) > > > Tep, I remember the analogy of the casino you used. It was very > vivid and will stick with me. You described this ever-so-patient > approach to mindfulness encouraged by Kh Sujin and others as random, > like the roulette ball falling into place, I thnk. And of course, > gambling and hoping for results at a casino is unwholesome and > depressing and pathetic. I know that your chanda to develop > mindfulness in a more intentional way is wholesome and you want to > share your enthusiasm with others. That's so clear. > Continuing to read your posts will help me to keep an open mind > toward more intentional ways of developing mindfulness. And I hope > that you too will come to see that there is nothing pessimistic or > passive about finding value in apparently random (but not so - there > are conditions at work) moments of mindfulness in daily life. > > Metta, > Phil 45401 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Phil and others - > T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, > Phil. This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very > true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. > > O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach > too. Thank you for the suggestion. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ===== Yes, I read his statements, and your statements. Phil is so sweet, and you are so sweet. You are both so so sweet- so sweet that reading your posts aggravates my hypoglycemia! ;-)) (just kidding). Really, I don't care much about Phil's approach to the dhamma, or your approach to the dhamma- I really only care about what the Buddha taught regarding the dhamma. You can both agree with each other, shake hands, and go to sleep with smiles on your faces- but it won't mean jack squat if your practices don't truly correspond to the Noble Eightfold Path. What I like to read is for people to beautifully elucidate the Buddha's teaching so that I am more inspired to practice. That is why I read posts. I don't like to read debates, or compromises, or two-way communications, and all that stuff- what's the point of all that? It's just ego stroking. Maybe I am wrong in my approach, but that is the way I am now. I'll give it some more thought. Metta, James 45402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 8:51pm Subject: The Prime Benefits ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Fourfold Advantage: A deity once asked the Buddha: What is good, when one is old ? What is good, when established ? What is a human's finest treasure ? What is hard for robbers to steal ? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good, even when one is old ! Confidence is good, when firmly established ! Understanding is any human's finest treasure ! Merit well done is impossible for robbers to steal ! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I [39-40] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45403 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 10:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results foamflowers Hi everyone, smiles and hugs, throws some metta flowers around! Ph: Thanks. Yesterday I made a bitter and fairly (but not completely) foolish attack on Thanissaro Bhikkhu (not the last time, I'm sure) and indirectly on Lisa, who quoted him. (*Sorry Lisa - I think I overdid it, but I know you're cool about that sort of thing.) I listen to the DSG Bangkok talks on tape, and there is a certain consistency of view, which helps me to undertand better (be brainwashed better, my friend James would say) but then when I come to the internet there is nothing but disagreement, and I guess I get frustrated. But as Ken said, there can be a different dynamic in the face to face talks and internet. I will look at my sour grapes when they arise (and they will, often) and know them to the degree I am capable of as annica, dukkha and anatta. Metta, Phil Dear Phil, My gift to you, myself plus those around me is to give us space so we can see clearly reality as it is. I promise not to judge to harshly within my limited abilities or react to swiftly without some reflection. I have really been chewing on ritual, anatta and this attachment to self, not self, non-self and no self argument and the seemingly conflicting messages within the Suttas and the Abhidhamma when it comes to exactly how we are supposed to meditate or not meditate, be this way or that way in our daily lives, noble or just layperson, and on and on and on. Some thoughts.......We are so different in our conditioning and habitual way of reacting to aversion and cravings. The teachings are from how I see it, varied and sometimes conflicting because of this. To try and make the Suttas read from one point of view when they where given to those who suffered from many different points of view and conditions makes my head hurt (okay I'm tired and I can't find the right words to express this point I'm trying to make). I guess until we reached the end of views the Way will be filled with many points of view and many arguments and concerns. Why stress it? Are you sure there is one right way and many wrong ways or just many different points of view? There is no controlling how people take the sutra right or wrong and that is including the Abhidhamma, this is what I've heard on DSG and also from my own Dhamma teacher. Although Sunim said in a very serious tone, very softly and kindly, that once I made the vow to 'wake up' I had to stick to it and I took that advice to heart. How can you judge someone's spiritual worth just from personal opinion? Does anyone one know what someone else has gone through to be here right now to speak of Dhamma at this (M)moment? Who has actually walked in someone else's shoes, who is awake enough to know who they are before they judge another who may or may not know? I can judge an oncoming car and if I should or shouldn't cross the road but when it comes to another's spiritual worth…I am not a Buddha or Arahat. ( I have a quote that knocks this argument down, I'll post it later.) If we refuse to walk the path at all, or backslide on the path by refusing to keep the Precepts or meditate, spending all our time arguing about the characteristics of Nirvana, self, no-self, non-self, not-self, you can be sure, that we will never arrive at our destination at all! It's a wilderness out there, sentient beings! Be sure to pack your bags accordingly it is an adventure that no personality or individual can escape from..... We should keep in mind the words of the Buddha: O! Bhikkhus! When any monk is not earnest in his practice of meditation, even though he might have the wish in his mind, "Oh, that my mind should free itself from defilements as a result of non-attachment", he will be unable to free his mind from defilements as a result of non-attachment. Why is this? It is because he did not cultivate. Did not cultivate what? Because he did not cultivate the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [satipa.t.thaana]; the Four Accomplishments [sampadaana]; the Four Foundations of Success [iddhipaada]; the Five Faculties [indriya]; the Five Powers [bala]; the Seven Factors of Enlightenment [bojjha"nga], or; the Eightfold Path [ariyamagga]; (In the same way ) it is like a mother hen with eight eggs, ten eggs, twelve eggs to hatch, but the mother hen neglects to incubate the eggs by sitting on them, doesnít give them sufficient warmth, but makes the wish in her mind, "Oh, that my chicks should use the tip of their claws or their beak to pierce the eggshell, and hatch in safety", but in reality, those chicks are unable to use their claws or their beaks to pierce the eggshell to hatch in safety. Why is this? It is because she failed to incubate the eggs by sitting on them, didn't give them sufficient warmth, that they did not hatch. O! Bhikkhus! When a monk is earnest in his practice of meditation, even though he might not have the wish in his mind, "Oh, that my mind should free itself from defilements as a result of non-attachment", but he will be able to free his mind from defilements as a result of non-attachment. Why is this? It is because he cultivated. Cultivated what? Cultivated the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [satipa.t.thaana]; the Four Accomplishments [sampadaana]; the Four Foundations of Success [iddhipaada]; the Five Faculties [indriya]; the Five Powers [bala]; the Seven Factors of Enlightenment [bojjha"nga], or; the Eightfold Path [ariyamagga]; (In the same way ) it is like a mother hen with eight eggs, ten eggs, twelve eggs to hatch, which the mother hen incubates by sitting on them, giving them sufficient warmth, but doesnít make the wish in her mind, "Oh, that my chicks should use the tip of their claws or their beak to pierce the eggshell, and hatch in safety", but in spite of this, those chicks will be able to use their claws or their beaks to pierce the eggshell to hatch in safety. Why is this? It is because she incubated the eggs by sitting on them, and gave them sufficient warmth, that they hatched. A"nguttaranikaaya, Sattakanipaata, 23/96/126-127 Self, no-self, not-self, non-self, anatta and nirvana...whew...A huge can of worms, I had no idea that this was an ancient argument ...lol (I'm not mocking Dhamma Htoo) To be continued along with my ponderings on ritual...(I not avoiding talking about what I think is ritual, I just never really had rituals in my life, all I see when I look at ritual and other religions including Buddhism are people doing lovely actions to lovely things in their culture that is so different from my own culture. Thoughts, words, actions, they remind me of a spider web and I am the fly all tangled up in it. Than I see what is not so different beyond the thoughts, words, actions and –motion…it takes the confusion away like a rag wipes away dust on a mirror. Oh that reminds me a thought on motion....what if motion is like the pixels on a tv screen. Motion and depth on a tv screen is created by the changing of many small dots of color. Motion is an illusion on the screen our mind makes the changing of colors seem like motion. So the mind is like a TV screen many pixels and what seems to be motion is just a change of focus and attention...(just a guess) Time for bed...With Metta, Lisa 45404 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 0:14am Subject: The more excellent happiness corvus121 Dear DSG'ers Greetings to you all. I am doing some preparatory reading/research for the next Cooran Dhamma weekend at Vesak and, as usual, I need some help. I hope this isn't another "no brainer"! (-: Anyway, here goes and many thanks to any wise friends who can point me in the right direction. I am looking at the Sakkapanha Sutta, DN 21 verse 2.3 Walshe p. 329. The Buddha explains that there are 2 kinds of happiness - the kind to be avoided increases unwholesome factors and decreases wholesome factors; and the kind to be sought after increases wholesome factors and decreases unwholesome factors. The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? Any takers? With best wishes Andrew T 45405 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness philofillet Hi Andrew > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? I wonder if it has anything to do with prompted/unprompted? If I recall correctly, kusala or akusala citta that is unprompted has more potency. Metta, Phil 45407 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist term PANNA. Panna has a far wider meaning than intelligence, intellectuality, understanding or knowledge. In its Buddhist meaning it is part of the eight fold path and the intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and realization of Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary-Nyanatiloka) The conditions for its arising is the knowledge acquired by reading about the teaching, thinking about the teaching and practicing the Teaching. Therefore the "necessary instructions" given by the Buddha are not to be spoken of lightly, but they are to be realized through putting them into practice. ________________________________________________________________ Sara says: ………… I was taught in the beginning, under what you would describe as very good teachers. However, I realised it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed,slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments. Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. I'm just mentioning this because you seem to have the idea that if only some of us would go on a retreat, learn to meditate and so on, we'd come to our senses. In fact many of us (those you are concerned about) have been model meditators:-). ____________________________________________________________________ My reply to above: One who is interested in Buddhist Meditation, must be prepared to go through a certain amount of sacrifice, have confidence in a teacher, meditate without any expectations. The last because if the expectations are not realized one gets disillusioned, and gives up the practice and go in search of a method which is an easy way out. Disillusionment, is no reason to believe one has got "enlightened". You say, "I realized it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concentrating on breath, eyes closed, slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments." Lord Buddha himself went through exactly what you say, rather disparagingly about bhavana. I think some of those "model meditators" you mention should read the life of the Buddha and read some Suttas seriously- for instance the Mahasacchaka Sutta, to understand what the Buddha went through in search of the truth about Dukkha. Perhaps, if the Buddha had met some of those "models" or their counter parts, at that time, the Buddha may have had his enlightenment watching "the reality of the present moment". _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. _____________________________________________________________________ My reply: If one's idea of Buddhism is living in comfort, having nice meals in a posh restaurant with one's family and friends, do a job, and drive a car, discuss Buddhism over a nice cup of tea etc., then that is the Abhidhammika way, but not according to what the Buddha taught. __________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Samatha (tranquillity or calm) refers to pasaddhi cetasika which accompanies all wholesome cittas. (b) This is the development of samatha, but first there has to be a clear understanding of which moments are kusala and which are akusala, otherwise it cannot develop just by taking such an object. (c) For example, all the students in my yoga class focus very well on their breath. Are they all developing samatha? Does it help them to develop satipatthana? I don't think so. ________________________________________________________________ My reply: One should go for a meditation retreat, with what is called a "don't know mind" or what the Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki calls a "Beginner's Mind" If one knows every thing, there is then nothing more to learn….. The last question (c), shows a lack of a basic knowledge of Samatha. __________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: When you say that 'one has to prepare oneself for Samatha meditation',again it's different from how I understand samatha bhavana (meditation) to develop. In other words, I believe it is the kusala citta (and cetasikas) that are important, rather than the place or way of sitting. ________________________________________________________________ My reply: I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no Buddhism) _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: I appreciate your goodwill and also good humour over your name:-) it's really good to have you around and I mean that most sincerely. _____________________________________________________________________ My reply: I am happy to be in a forum, where I am able to put my point of view across without trespassing on any ones patience and politeness. Dear Sarah, I have left out the rest of your message to what I wrote to Christine as it would be more appropriate that I reply her in case she raises those points. Thank you Sarah, May you be happy, With metta, Hasituppada (now that my identity is known) 45408 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness hasituppada Dear Dhamma Friend, I am not in the habit of "butting in" but just after reading your post, these thoughts came to me. Happiness , here I think is "piti" That is an emotion that arises in a meditative mind when the mind has attained a certain level of purity. This arises only when the mind is free of disturbing thoughts or reflections. Vitakka and vicara are still thought moments in the mind. In a mind that is absorbing Jhana, these thoughts arise and the silence is disturbed, but at the second Jhana the mind is free from vitakka and vicara, and there is "piti"-rupture,and "sukha"-the mind is absolutely silent and that is better than when "vitakka and vicara was present. At the third jhana the mind is gone even beyond "piti"-rupture to "sukha" , which is even better than the mind with "piti" and at the forth Jhana the mind goes beyond both "sukha" to upekkha which is even better than it was with "sukha". Even in Vipassana, where the mind is not stilled as in Samatha, "piti bojjhangha" arises before , tranquility and concentration. Vipassana mind is also more calm and reaches upekkha when it is gone beyond even "piti". Therefore, a meditative rupture cannot arise in a mind which is still disturbed by vitakka and vichara. There is still no "panna" to see through three lakkhana and attain nibbana. That is my modest contribution to your post. with metta, Hasituppada. ______________________________________________________________ > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? > > Any takers? > > With best wishes > Andrew T 45409 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:55am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 191 - Enthusiasm/piiti (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] The Atthasåliní (75) mentions the following factors which are conducive to the arising of the enlightenment factor of píti: * "…recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, of síla, of generosity, of devas, of peace (nibbåna), avoidance of rough (i.e. ill-tempered persons), serving meek persons, reflection on a Suttanta which instills confidence and a tendency to all this." * When we read a sutta, ponder over it and test the meaning by being mindful of the realities the Buddha taught time and again, we can prove the truth of his teachings. Thus our confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha can grow and we will be inspired to continue to develop the eightfold Path. There can be conditions for the arising of enthusiasm which invigorates citta and the accompanying cetasikas. Also píti can be object of mindfulness so that paññå can see it as it is, as not self. We should remember that without the development of satipaììhåna the enlightenment factor of píti and also the other enlightenment factors cannot develop. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45410 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Hasituppada, Tep, James, Htoo, Howard, Larry & all, --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist > term PANNA. <..> S: There are several messages I look f/w to replying to, but it won't be today now - workmen here and also, Kel & All, working on next Musing on prior stages of insight...:-/ many thanks to any addressed to me in the meantime. yes, Hasituppada, I hope Chris and others reply too. LK, if you're still reading, I haven't forgotten our luminous chats...will get round to it eventually. Back to the workmen... Metta, Sarah ========= 45411 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, >Htoo: >What I posted was from 'genuine sutta'. Even these 'words' are attacked. I think this is because of 'already holding light'. What I have been doing is searching for things as they are while the light arises from the searcher own eyes. >Would you say 'The Buddha is wrong to preach to his disciples as - gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'? Sukinder: To discuss the meaning of statements given by the Buddha, I need not only to be well read with regard to the Sutta and commentaries, but also have to have some proficiency in pali. In both areas, I am extremely poor. Using only reasoning based on my general understanding isn't good enough. Of course, anything the Buddha stated is in accordance with the Truth and cannot have double meaning. This makes it an even more daunting task requiring great responsibility, and I'm not known to be very discreet. But I will express some general views with the idea that it is the best so far, and that all other interpretations put forward by others are not consistent with what I understand the Teachings to be. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta may be said on one level to be an `instruction' given by the Buddha. However I think this is more in the form of "reminder" than something to "do". After all we are dealing with conditioned cittas and cetasikas and not conventional reality. As you know, sati does not arise just by observing posture and bodily movement. It can be sati and panna or it can be lobha-mula- citta with wrong view which does the observation. Don't you think that it is likely that `ditthi' would arise when we purposefully observe the posture and movement? When on the other, these conventional realities happen to be the object of consciousness without any view that *this is the right practice*, then indeed by upanissaya paccaya they can condition satipatthana. I think being worldlings, when we hear of this instruction of the Buddha, we more likely approach it the wrong way. My understanding is that the Sutta was given to those disciples who already had very developed sati. For them the sati arose so readily that at every bodily activity, satipatthana could alternate with cittas having posture as object. So it is by pakattupanissaya paccaya that the latter would condition the former. The Buddha's instruction worked for them "directly", i.e. it conditioned patipatti and even pativedha. For us, we need to have correct pariyatti, this being the best that will most likely be conditioned to arise by pakattupanissaya paccaya on hearing these same instructions. But because of wrong understanding, instead it ends up conditioning wrong practice for some of us. We think that it is `deliberate looking' which will condition satipatthana, not knowing about the different conditions, particularly pakattupanissaya paccaya. In fact I think, sign of progress along the path is determined by the different states of mind while engaging in varying activities and situations serving as pakattupanissaya paccaya for sati of whatever level to arise. From this point of view too, deliberate practice seem to lead to a different direction that the right one. This is why when I first heard K. Sujin state that the Teachings are to be seen as `descriptive' instead of `prescriptive', it made sense to me. I think this difference in view point is decisive in whether indeed there will be further development of Right View. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, Sorry Sarah, I do not snip this post as to make the audience reading again. I agree with Sukin. That is why I do not reply in my usual manner. Sukin, I can see your sincerity and your power of clear communication. There are people who are stick to 'Suttas' and they would deny Abhidhamma as the genuine teachings of The Buddha. But when these sutta-lovers are talked what I notice is they do not have proficiency in Pali and so Dhamma. So they are frequently making mistakes by wrong interpretation on suttas. When even a single sutta cannot be well understood how can they manage the whole lot of all suttas? I like your words and K Sujin's words. Descriptive, prescriptive things. Actually 'satipatthana' was preached many many times in many places and by many arahats including Sariputta, Moggalana and others. I said satipatthana and I do not say 'satipatthana sutta'. I will re-mention again 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. This sentence is just a part of the whole sutta. As you said we will have to learn other aspects of Dhamma in other suttas. Even in this sutta there is a word 'Idha'. The Buddha already included 'Idha'. But when Pali is not understood, how will one be able to understand the sutta. Some even admitted that they did not have Pali proficiency. 'When going, he detailed-knows he goes'. As you said this is nothing. But this is conventional things and we do not need to see just superficial. As you said, this is descriptive and not prescriptive. So it is WRONG to perceive as 'We must know when we go as we are going'. The meaning in the whole sentence is that 'there are many ruupas, they arise, persist, fall away and there are naama, they arise, persist, and fall away. This is not only in us but also in others. There are causes and when these causes are not there they will vanish and so the practitoner clearly see these with good mindfulness diligently and he is not on any of wrong ideas and he at the time of seeing naama and ruupa is said to be liberated' With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. 45412 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:11am Subject: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello all, Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. metta, Chris 45413 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:32am Subject: Kamma through mind door (Re: Dhamma Thread (357) htootintnaing Dear Phil, Thanks for your reply. I think there have been many posts on the matter of mano-kamma. Useful posts are good for review. I will reply your questions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Hello Htoo Thanks as always for this series. Your perseverence encourages me to persevere with my Dhamma study. I have a question that I'm sure occurs to many beginners. > > Abhijjhaa is a kamma that are mental activities wishing to possess > > properties or things that are owned by others beings. The base > > dhammathat underlie this abhijjhaa kamma is lobha cetasika. > >Byaapaada ( spell as Vyapada in PTS ) is a kamma that are mental > >activities wishing destruction of others' properties, fames, good > >reputation etc etc. The base dhamma that underlie this byaapaada > >kamma is dosa cetasika or aversion. Phil: Are kamma done through the mental door always less potent or harmful than kamma done through the body door? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To have a clear picture I will reveal three kammic actions with illustrations. a) Kaaya kamma = Bodily actions + mental actions b) Vaci kamma = Verbal actions + mental actions c) Mano kamma = Silent + mental actions So I hope you clearly see what is what. Speech is vaci-vinatti ruupa. The cause is 'cittas' and mental actions. Gesture is kaaya-vinatti ruupa. The cause is 'cittas' and mental actions. I mean these bodily actions and verbal actions are cittaja ruupas and they arise because of mental actions. When we just practise siila, we refrain from wrong doing, wrong verabal actions. But there may be thoughts without physical and verbal involvement or silent akusala. Whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst. As both kaaya kamma and vaci kamma have mano-kamma they are not less potent than mano-kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Is thinking of killing a human, for example, less potent than actually killing an insect? I think Rob M taught me on this point, and said that it is case by case, depending on the intensity of the intention, but I can't recall for sure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As rob M taught you, there are case by case variations. But there is no variations among dhamma of cetana cetasika, which is sankharakkhandha. If it is killing, that is killing and there will be kamma. Thinking killing a human is byaapaada. It is kamma. It does have kammic effect. Killing an insect is also akusala kamma. But the result will be depend on cetana, effort or viriya when it is committed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Also, is a kamma that is unprompted (ie an unwholesome thought that just arises on its own) more potent and harmful than a prompted thought (for example, we think of killing after watching a violent movie?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sasankharika and asankharika or promptedness and unpromptedness have different implications. In case of kusala there is reduction of kusala kamma effect if there is sasankharika. This may lead to dvihetuka kusala kamma. In case of akusala, asankharika or unpromptedness is worse than sasankharika or promptedness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: And if there is wrong view -"it doesn't matter if I do this - there is no result from kamma - I can get away with it" - does that make the kamma more potent? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even in case of killing, if there is no wrong view, it is not worse than with wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: I guess we don't know, that the Buddha taught that trying to fingure out the precise working of kamma would drive us to distraction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. I would not figure out. These discussion on kamma are just description and what is important is that the main or the chief is 'mind' and when we tame our mind then bad kamma will not be committed. And this is the beauty of teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: In any case, I appreciate this reminder to be aware of akusala kamma through the mental door. I am slack in that department. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is no bad mental actions, it is lighter to live than with full of mental bad actions like 'thinking on others' destruction and thinking on possession of others' properties. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45414 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (358) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 kama kusala kamma as there are 3 kama akusala kamma. These kusala kamma are classified as 3 depending on kamma-dvaara or door of kamma or actions. They are 1. kaaya-kusala-kamma 2. vaci-kusala-kamma 3. mano-kusala-kamma Depending on 'arising of citta' or 'cittuppaada' there are 8 kama kusala kamma. These 8 kamma are also known as 8 mahaa-kusala kamma. There are other kusala kamma like rupa-kusala and arupa-kusala kamma. to differentiate these 2 kamma, kamavacara kusala kamma are called mahaa-kusala kamma. As they are cittas or cittuppaada, they can be read in citta portion of Dhamma Thread. But for the benefit of readers, the summary will be given in this post. These 8 maha-kusala kamma or 8 maha-kusala cittas are 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayutta sasankharika citta 3. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayutta asankharika citta 4. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayutta sasankharika citta 5. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta 6. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta sasankharika citta 7. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta asankharika citta 8. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta sasankharika citta Somanassa is joy or happiness. Saha gatam means 'to associate with'. Nana means 'wisdom'. Sampayutta means 'mixed with'. Asankharika means 'unprompted'. Sasankharika means 'prompted'. Vippayutta means 'dissociated' and upekkha here means 'indifferent feeling'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45415 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (400), Metta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu Sabbe means 'all' 'each and every'. Satta means 'sentient being'. Vera means 'enemy' and avera means 'free from enemies'. Hontu means 'be that'. So sabbe satta avera hontu means 'may all beings be free from enemies'. 1. May all beings be free from enemies (inside & outside) Byapajjati means 'trouble'. Abyapajja means 'untroubled'. So 2. Sabbe satta abyapajjaa hontu means 'May all beings be untroubled'. Anigha means 'niddukkha'. Niddukkha means 'free of sufferings, pains'. So 3. Sabbe satta anighaa hontu means 'May all beings be free from sufferings'. Sukha means 'pleasure'. Sukhi-atta means 'physical pleasure'. So 4. Sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu means 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa or 'all beings' 2. sabbe paanaa or 'all creatures' 3. sabbe bhuutaa or 'all grown beings' 4. sabbe puggalaa or 'all individuals' 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa or 'all life-inclusive beings' 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa or 'all arahats' 2. sabbe anariyaa or 'all non-arahats' 3. sabbe purisaa or 'all male beings' 4. sabba itthiyo or 'all female beings' 5. sabbe manussaa or 'all human beings' 6. sabbe devaa or 'all devas that is deva-devas and brahma-devas' 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa or all non-human beings There are 12 objects as general. They are 'the idea or pannatti of mentioned 5 and 7, altogether 12 ideas or 12 pannatti. And there are 4 alternative wishing or citations. So there will be 48 general wishing or citation or mental exertion on these 48 things. After general mental exertion, one who is practising metta may does so to the 10 directions of east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. When doing mental exertion to up and down, these have to include all beings that are above hios or her level even though the beings above may be in 8 directions. In this way, all directions are included and all beings in X-axis, Y- axis, Z-axis of both right and left or up and down or faced and backed. So there will be 528 mental exertion of metta. Again initially one has to cite or mentally cultivate that he or she starts with 4 citations to himself or herself. 1. Aham avero homi. 2. Aham abyapajjo homi. 3. Aham anigho homi. 4. Aham sukhi-attaanam pariharaami. 1. May I be free from enemies. 2. May I be untroubled. 3. May I be free from sufferings. 4. May I be healthy and wealthy both physically and mentally. 1 is equal to 1. 2 is equal to 2. When we put 1 pound in one side of a scale and another 1 pound to other side of the scale, the scale's indicator will show equal. As soon as one side is heavier than the other the indicator will indicate that heavier side is heavier. Metta has to be equal to all if it is to be universal. That is what universal friendliness means. There must not be any boundries. There are 4 different beings that we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happen then this metta is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45416 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (400), Metta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different beings among whom we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happens then 'this metta' is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. When 4 citation or 4 wishes are exerted to 5 general objects and 7 less general objects there will be 48 general wishes (4.12(5+&) = 48 ) There are 10 directions or disa.s. They are east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. There are many endless and infinite beings in those directions. So as there are 10 directions, there will be 480 wishes. Along with general 48 wishes, there will be altogether 480 + 48 = 528 wishes to all beings. These 528 wishes go from the centre. The centre is our self. So we have to start with 'wishes' to our self first. Again the weightage to our self and to others must be equal and have the same weightage. Otherwise there will have been some boundry. When go in 10 directions, there include enemies, deared ones, and non- deared-non-hated ones. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45417 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (359) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 kama kusala kamma as there are 3 kama akusala kamma. These kusala kamma are classified as 3 depending on kamma-dvaara or door of kamma or actions. They are 1. kaaya-kusala-kamma 2. vaci-kusala-kamma 3. mano-kusala-kamma Depending on 'arising of citta' or 'cittuppaada' there are 8 kama kusala kamma. These 8 kamma are also known as 8 mahaa-kusala kamma. These cittas have been explained repeatedly. There are still 3 kinds of kusala depending on what is being done. They are 1. daana maya 2. siila maya 3. bhavanaa maya This classification depends on 'punna-kiriya-vatthu'. Punna means 'wholesome action'. Kiriya means 'performance'. Vatthu means 'ground' 'base''dependee'. So 3 kinds of kamma depend on these 3 kinds of wholesome-grounds. They are 1. daana or offering 2. siila or building up moral conduct by abstaining doing bad things 3. bhavanaa or building up or developing good mind. All these 3 kamma are basically done by 8 mahakusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45418 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness matheesha333 Hi, Funnily I was just reading this sutta a few days back! Yes, I would agree with Hasituppada on this. It is about the buddha proclaiming that the second jhana is more exalted and better than the first and so on. This goes all the way upto the 8th jhaana where unbinding is said to be more exalted than that. It is simply degrees of agitation and disturbance dropping away. One of the core motivations for the whole buddhist path can be understood at depth through experiencing jhaana in this manner. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > I am not in the habit of "butting in" but just after reading your > post, these thoughts came to me. Happiness , here I think is "piti" > That is an emotion that arises in a meditative mind when the mind > has attained a certain level of purity. > > This arises only when the mind is free of disturbing thoughts or > reflections. Vitakka and vicara are still thought moments in the > mind. In a mind that is absorbing Jhana, these thoughts arise and > the silence is disturbed, but at the second Jhana the mind is free > from vitakka and vicara, and there is "piti"-rupture,and "sukha"- the > mind is absolutely silent and that is better than when "vitakka and > vicara was present. At the third jhana the mind is gone even > beyond "piti"-rupture to "sukha" , which is even better than the > mind with "piti" and at the forth Jhana the mind goes beyond > both "sukha" to upekkha which is even better than it was > with "sukha". > > Even in Vipassana, where the mind is not stilled as in > Samatha, "piti bojjhangha" arises before , tranquility and > concentration. Vipassana mind is also more calm and reaches upekkha > when it is gone beyond even "piti". > > Therefore, a meditative rupture cannot arise in a mind which is > still disturbed by vitakka and vichara. > > There is still no "panna" to see through three lakkhana and attain > nibbana. > > That is my modest contribution to your post. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > > ______________________________________________________________ > > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not > so > > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? > > > > Any takers? > > > > With best wishes > > Andrew T 45419 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta hasituppada Dear Christine, You are probably referring to Parivatta Sutta SNXXII.56 with metta, Hasituppada 45420 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta matheesha333 Hi Chris, Plenty to keep you busy here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html note that the the feeling of the 'knower' is simply another collection of the 5 aggregates and not necessarily real as this feeling flickers on and off and can be even wilfully gotten rid of! Its only part of our delusional nature. Also see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/15- mahanidana-e2.htm ..might go some ways in thinking of an infinite 'greater self'. Ultimately all thoughts of 'self' are just labels for collections of stuff. A Car is a concept used to think of a collection of wheels, engine,gearbox, body, seats etc. A Car is only a metal concept. No solitary/united thing exists in nature called a car. We cant extract a car 'essence' once all its component parts are destroyed. But all this is theoretical understanding. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. > > metta, > Chris 45421 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:25am Subject: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Here is dialogue between Tep and Htoo. This is a dialogue that appear at a universal group called 'Universalanswer' Yahoo Group. It is not confined to Buddhism only but a universal one. We avoided Pali word and Buddhism things so that all people with all backgrounds can enjoy there. Tep said: Hello Htoo and everyone - What is soul? According to my MacMillan Dictionary, there are 9 meanings! 1) Spiritual part of human beings as distinguished from the physical. 2) Moral or spiritual part of human beings considered in relation to God, believed to be immortal and to separate from the body at death. 3) Spirit of a dead person, thought of as having an existence of its own. 4) Emotional part of human nature, as distinguished from the intellect. 5) Spiritual or emotional warmth, force, or energy. 6) Essential, fundamental, or animating part; vital element. 7) One who leads or inspires. 8) One who is considered to embody a certain quality; personification. 9) Person. Only Buddhists believe that there is no soul ( the meanings #1- #3) in a living or a dead body, before this life, now, or after. Such a belief is a universal truth, although it is not the common belief of all religions. My comment: the Buddhists' No-soul principle does not deny existence of beings, but rather to reject the personality views and other extreme viewpoints related to soul. Question: What did the Buddha say precisely about his No-soul principle, and what was/were his reason(s) to say so? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, The Buddha taught to His first 5 disciples like this. 'Physical phenomena are non-soul's?' 'If they are soul's, they may have been what the soul wants them to be.' 'Is that right or wrong disciples?' ''It is right that physical phenomena are all non-soul's teachers.'' 'Disciples, feelings are non-soul's' 'If feelings are soul's, they they may have been what the soul wants them to be. That is this good feeling arises here and that bad feeling do not arise there and the soul may have the power of control. But it is not the case. So feelings are non-soul's'. 'Is that right or wrong, disciples?' ''It is right that feelings are non-soul's as you said teacher.'' 'Perceptions are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Formations are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Consciousness are non-soul's disciples' ---- These are the principles of No-soul. The reason to say so is that 1. physical phenomena can be what the soul wants if there is a soul. If it can be, then there will not ever be any bad things like tsunami in this world and beyond. But in this world there are full of undesirable physical phenomena. Let the world alone, we even are not able to what we want to be. Example is when we need time our body cannot work beyond limita and it has to have a rest as sleep. 2. feelings can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But feelings cannot be what we want. If there is a soul and it wants feelings of what he wants then there will not be any bad feelings, pains, diseases. But the world is full of such thing. 3. perceptions can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But perceptions do not follow what one wants them to be. If there is a soul and he wants perceptions not arise then we should not have any bad perceptions like sound of explosion, perceptions of bad rotten dead body smells of tsunami. But as we can see, there were people who were working with face-masks at tsunami site. 4. formations or mental movements can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But this is not the case. Because there are formations that are what we do not want them to be. If they can be what we want, then formations like 'tranquility-concentration' should arise in a short time. But there is straying thoughts at least initially. 5. consciousness can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But this is not the case and consciousness cannot be stopped by us. Examples there are light and forms and shapes in front of us as a physical phenomena while consciousness arise continuously. If consciousness can be what we want them to be then we will be able to develop 'path-consciousness' and we will be liberated from suffering right now. But we are still here are reading e-mails daily. As soon as one has a doubt that there is a continuous and ever-living soul then he or she is holding wrong view. Because there is no permanent soul at all. With friendship, Htoo PS: The Buddha here just referred to a person of a time. The group is universal. Anyone, any background, any view holders are all allowed and air their view there. 45422 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 8:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (360) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We are performing actions in a daily basis. These actions include bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions. As long as we are not arahats, these actions are bad actions or good actions. As long as actions are good or bad, they bear the potentials to give rise to their fruit or results. This potential is brought forward down to next and next successively arising citta and this is right till the last arising cuti citta or dying consciousness of arahats. It is quite evident that no one wants to experience bad things. If they do not want these bad experiences, they will have to avoid doing bad actions. These bad actions have been discussed to some detail in the previous posts. Currently, Dhamma Thread posts are discussing kusala dhamma, kusala cittas, and kusala matters. Again there are 10 bases for wholesome actions or 10 grounds for wholesome actions or 10 homes for kusala actions. Because of these 10 homes or punna-kiriya-vatthu, there are 10 kusala dhamma. They are 1. daana or offering 2. siila or moral conduct 3. bhaavanaa or mental cultivation 4. apacaayana or giving respect to senior of any kind 5. veyyaavacca or performing good supporting assistance 6. pattidaana or sharing merit 7. pattaanumodana or delighting others' merit 8. dhammassavana or listening to dhamma preaching 9. dhammadesanaa or preaching dhamma 10.ditthijukamma or being straightness in view or taking right view. Still there are many kusala dhamma. But when they all are investigated there are only 8 mahakusala cittas that base these kama kusala actions. There are 12 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. They form altogether 20 cittas and they give rise to their effects in the form of kamavacara vipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45423 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Hasituppada) - In a message dated 5/12/05 7:13:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. metta, Chris ==================== I also don't know the reference, but I do recall reading a sutta the content of which is that there is no self to be found in any of the khandhas or in any combination of them *or outside of them*! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45424 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, Hi Sarah, Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. > .... > S: Could you elaborate just a little on what 'the good results' you were > expecting were? What kind of results have resulted? Well, just feeling I can competantly post to a group with legitimate questions and attempts to gain understanding and that gave me a more 'into life' feeling both at and away from the computer for some time. > Definitely we'll be students of the Dhamma for our whole lives and we can > never know everything, but we jsut try to understand what we can for now > and when we know more, we can say more. > > The main thing, I think, is to learn to see all dhammas as anatta, > otherwise we just have headaches and problems all the time, trying to > select and control dhammas or trying to know a lot of detail but without > any real understanding. Eh, but see I've seen so much results from sitting meditation throughout the past few years that I can't think just trying to see the three characteristics in dhammas is what it's all about. Perhaps it is a large part of it because I think of times I have been able to see the impermanence of all things when I was doing very well with formal vipassana meditation, and their true nature, expanding, changing, does appear to me when I practise like this or do walking meditation. I just think there is a fundamental discord between the approaches we are taking. I mean, I want to practise the Noble Eightfold Path. Or at least the four foundations of mindfulness. These are cultivated quite intentionally, and I see this as a fundamental conflict with most of the views espoused here; in fact, it's not the only one. This is why after an initial post that I get 'good results' from, I usually trail off with the thread.. it's not going in the direction of helping me in my practise, with some exceptions, like working towards understanding ultimate realities. I have to try to get back in touch with my practise, it seems participating heavily here hampers that. > S: If you'd rather start new threads or abandon them all together, it's > fine. Whatever you feel is most useful, Al. No, please don't abandon us!! > > Your last set of posts contained excellent questions and astute > observations -- we can all benefit from them. At least I can. No need to > think too much about whether DSG is your 'home away from home' or whether > the list is 'you'! Just take one day at a time and if you feel like > responding to any posts or threads or feel like initiating any, as you've > done here, just know we'll be glad to hear from you. > > I believe that you really reflect very deeply on the Teachings in a way > that is most unusual, especially for someone young. Your faith and > understanding of the dhammas as dhammas is very precious. So please chip > in from time to time when you can. It's most inspiring. > Metta, > > Sarah Sarah, I have to go. I do think that there is some good discussion here that can help me understand some basic concepts in Buddhism, but I haven't been able to let it work with my daily life or practise. One last thing. I think you give me far too much credit for my reflection and 'understanding.' And this is where I stray with threads. Perhaps some better effort is called for. At the very least, I will lurk in this group rather than starting threads I would abandon and so on. Sorry for the late reply, as always. peace, AL 45425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: That is an excellent point, Jon. I have an idea to propose to you: >the 4-tetrad Anapanasati can bring the full benefits to those who >already have the right view (samma-ditthi). I have no doubt (although I >have no proof) that the monks who listened to the Anapanasati >Discourse that day all had the right view. If you have time please visit >the link below to find out why I think so. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/784 > > Thanks for the comments, and I have read your post at the link. Let me clarify that I was not questioning the fact that the Anapanasati Sutta describes how enlightenment can be attained with jhana as basis -- I accept that it does. I was trying to highlight the fact that the sutta is addressed to monks who were already well developed in both samatha (with breath as object) and vipassana. In other words, it is a teaching for the late stages of the long journey to attaining enlightenment. It is not a recommendation to all and sundry that the path to enlightenment begins with undertaking anapanasati. >Tep: In DN 22 it states that in order to enter the first jhana the meditator >must be "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities". All other suttas with emphasis on concentration also say the >same about the 1st jhana. It follows that all the jhana states after that >also must be supported by kusala too. Don't you think so? > > Yes, all jhana states are kusala. Thus, the attainment of the first jhana is a matter of the development of kusala, and not just a matter of the development of concentration. >Tep: That observation is very good --'samadhi' sometimes refers to >the concentration that accompanies samatha, and sometimes to the >concentration that accompanies insight. My opinion on the 4th jhana is >that it was defined in 99% of the suttas with samma-ditthi and the other >Path factors in mind. > Jhanas are kusala states, and all kusala supports insight development; but jhanas are not insight. Higher states of concentration do not mean one is closer to a moment of insight, any more than higher sila would mean one was closer to a moment of samatha. Each kind of kusala is developed by its arising based on previous accumulations of the same, and other supporting conditions. In the case of insight, the main supporting conditions are hearing and reflecting on the teachings and relating what one is reflecting on to the present moment. This does not require a special place or time to occur. >In MN 117 the term "noble right concentration" was >used to mean exactly that <"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And >how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve >comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into >being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right >livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, >right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In >one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, >right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight >factors, and the arahant with ten".> > > Yes, "noble right concentration" is the concentration that accompanies the moment of enlightenment as described in this passage or, at a mundane level, a moment of development of the path (insight). >It is always nice talking with you, Jon. > > You too, Tep. Apologies as always for the delay. in responding. Jon 45426 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] philofillet Hi Tep, James and all > T: In the last paragraph of your post the word "random" was mentioned > twice; the second time I read the word a sanna arose in me. It turned on > the "memory switch" of mine and I recalled a sutta Ph: I know you've heard this before, but sanna accompanies every citta - it marks the object so it can be recognized by cittas that follow either soon or later. It is very functional and we tend to over-emphasize it. So maybe sanna is not the best word to describe the "rings a bell" feeling. Then again, just as I have learned that panna can describe everything from deep penetration of realities to right intellectual understanding, there may be many correct ways to understand what is meant by "sanna." Maybe the recalling of a sutta has more to do with conditions. The previous time you read the sutta, there was a moment of conditioning through one of the 24 conditioned relations - the object (the sutta) was highly esteemed by your understanding, and this conditioned a re- arising of it through object predominance condition or something like that. Just thinking out loud. You may be right to say it is sanna. I won't be able to help you there. > how small the chance of an uninstructed (ignorant) wordling to come > back to the world again after he died. The Buddha compared the > chance of returning to the world to the chance that a deep-sea turtle > would rise up to the water surface exactly at the same spot it did the last > time! This is a simile of randomness to me. One may say that the > chance to win a casino game is a lot higher than the chance that an > ignorant person may have another return to the world! Ph: If I recall, this sutta was to emphasize the rarity of the opportunity to study Dhamma, which requires at least a human reborth, right? It's a good reminder. Sometimes I feel guilty about studying Dhamma when I think I should be doing other things related to worldly "success." This sutta reminds us to be very grateful for this human life and the rare opportunity it gives us to develop understanding etc. > T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, > Phil. Ph: As we know, he did. James is very sweet too. You can feel his sweetness under his occasionally obnoxious comments. James , you make my saccarine-sated heart ache with friendly feelings! Come and let me give you a big hug! No, I am coming to Egypt to give you a grrreat big bear hug! haha and maybe James just gives voice to our own secret feelings. I mean, who *hasn't* thought (to quote a recent Jamesism) "there's something about Jon that gives me the creeps!"? haha >This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very > true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. Ph: Interesting to note though, that as James suggested (I think - it's easier to reflect on the points he makes when he's not in bratty mode!) making conciliatory comments can be conditioned by akusala as well as kusala. There can be laziness about not wanting to continue a debate (this is often the case for me) lobha about having pleasant feeling of harmony rather than dispute and so on. Or there can be kusala behind it, metta that arises suddenly, or right understanding re the content of the debate or so on. It depends, moment by moment. After I posted that previous conciliatory-toned note, I thought that it wasn't techinically right to tell you that it is "clear" that your efforts to convince people about intentional practice are wholesome. We don't know the other's citta, but we can be sure that it is not always or even usually wholesome. So even though there are wholesome moemnts when we post there is also surely a lot of clinging to self in it - obviously. Not that I'm taking back what I said about your posts being wholesome. When I wrote that, there was metta, and metta is non-discriminating. It is generous about the other person, and the other person's citta-stream as well, I guess. > O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach > too. Thank you for the suggestion. Ph: I'll continue reading your posts with interest as well, when I have time. Metta, Phil p.s James, I will ramble on in the "Letter to James" thread on Saturday, as usual. It's becoming a Saturday night treat for me. 45427 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Lisa, and all > My gift to you, myself plus those around me is to give us space so we > can see clearly reality as it is. Yes, space is so, so important. There is an expression in Japanese "yo-o-yu ga nai" which I can never tranlsate properly, but it's like not having space. People can't find it in themselves to be open to other people and care about them because they are so caught up in their own story, in their own suffering. This is why I love Abhidhamma. Even intellectual understanding, even hearing reminders from Dhamma friends that there is ultimately nothing but nama and rupa (ie the khandas) helps to give me this "yo-o-yu" this capacity, this freedom. I let go of stories, let go of irritations so much more easier than before I came across Abhidhamma. And this has been going on consistently for over a year, so it is more than a brief spurt of right understanding arising because of some past condition, I think. It is because of having come across Abhidhamma. (Though of course "I" might have first come across it in a past lifetime.) >I promise not to judge to harshly > within my limited abilities or react to swiftly without some > reflection. Can this be promised? You have judged harshly in the past, so you will again, due to conditions. That goes for all of us. But we can become more aware of the judging when it arises (as it will) and ever so gradually begin to eradicate it. But if you make promises to yourself about this sort of thing, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment, maybe? And the promise itself could be with wrong understanding, because it implies a self that can have citta the way it wants it, contrary to the anatta sutta. (SN 22.59 "It is not possible to have it of form (and other khandas): 'Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.") I have really been chewing on ritual, anatta and this > attachment to self, not self, non-self and no self argument and the > seemingly conflicting messages within the Suttas and the Abhidhamma > when it comes to exactly how we are supposed to meditate or not > meditate, be this way or that way in our daily lives, noble or just > layperson, and on and on and on. Me too. Well, not chewing maybe. I pop things in my mouth, so tp speak, and let them drop out again if I don't get it. Mentally chewing things could be more self at work, trying too ahrd to "get it." In the meantime, I don't meditate because it feels forced and unnatural when I do, and in the meantime you meditate because it feels helpful to you. We can only know by examining our experience. (Of course, if I don't meditate because it feels a bit silly in my circumstances, how will I come to know otherwise? It could be reflecting on a sutta or a post by someone here that makes something click for me, or the conditioned appearance in my life of a meditation teacher, or something like that - all beyond my control. I'll have to stop there, Lisa. Gotta run. Metta, Phil 45428 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta buddhistmedi... Hello Chris - Have you looked at Accesstoinsight yet? May be the link below is useful to locate a bundle of suttas for your purpose? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. > > metta, > Chris 45429 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Might I also add lone_renunciant Yes, hello. To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not reflect at all. I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying because I think it will lead to bad things. I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with the people in this group. My whole world has revolved around sitting meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived with it. It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of high acheivement, as I and even some popular artists in the media I know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon here or there. I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, much less apply them to real, or daily life. Much less trying to keep the necessary balance between the two (study, practise, daily life [, realization]). As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way, but even with my illness I want to try to put together some kind of understanding or plan of how I can follow the teachings to their end. I continue to see things here that seem useful, but that I only vaguely recall when applicable. I guess I do not 'harvest' understanding well, having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from mastering it. I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) Thanks, Andrew L. 45430 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:41pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhistmedi... Hi Phil (James and others) - You wrote one of the most entertaining DSG posts I have ever read! I hope James might find it entertaining too. Like Htoo always says, a few laughs now and then is a good medicine. Phil: ...sanna accompanies every citta - it marks the object so it can be recognized by cittas that follow either soon or later. It is very functional and we tend to over-emphasize it. So maybe sanna is not the best word to describe the "rings a bell" feeling. ... panna can describe everything from deep penetration of realities to right intellectual understanding, there may be many correct ways to understand what is meant by "sanna." Tep: This is an occasion that my 20+ years of sutta study does not provide a clear idea to explain that "ring a bell" phenomenon. I need a citta expert to help me for sure. Phil. : Maybe the recalling of a sutta has more to do with conditions. The previous time you read the sutta, there was a moment of conditioning through one of the 24 conditioned relations - the object (the sutta) was highly esteemed by your understanding, and this conditioned a re-arising of it through object predominance condition or something like that. Just thinking out loud. Tep: Please continue to think out louder and louder ! So it might ring another bell that provides an answer to the first "ring a bell" phenomenon. Ph: If I recall, this sutta was to emphasize the rarity of the opportunity to study Dhamma, which requires at least a human rebirth, right? It's a good reminder. Sometimes I feel guilty about studying Dhamma when I think I should be doing other things related to worldly "success." This sutta reminds us to be very grateful for this human life and the rare opportunity it gives us to develop understanding etc. Tep: Yes, Phil, you're right. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, James and all > 45431 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Re: Might I also add buddhistmedi... Hello Andrew (Sarah, and all others) - I don't remember ever had an online conversation here with you before. But that doesn't matter, now that I have found you -- another person with real meditation experience. I am sorry to hear about your illness. If there is anything I can do to help you overcome that health problem, please let me know. Thank you for the willingness to communicate with us by providing one week for such a purpose. First, let me think out loud that I agree with your following points: -- Having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from mastering it. -- I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, much less apply them to real, or daily life. -- Sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). My Question ------------------- What is the most important meditation experience you have had that may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to grasp how "reality works"? Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Yes, hello. > > To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: > > (snipped) > I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position > on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll > surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) > > Thanks, > Andrew L. 45432 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness corvus121 Dear Hasituppada, Phil and Mike Thanks for your help. Yes, I see that it is a reference to the 2nd jhana. Still thinking about prompted/unprompted, Phil, but it doesn't seem to sit well with that prescriptive-type language we read in the sutta ie happiness "to be avoided" and "to be sought after". Enough on that, though ... Many thanks again Andrew T 45433 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:25pm Subject: Papanca and self-view corvus121 Hello all Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a sotapanna still has papanca. Right? How do we reconcile this? Best wishes Andrew T 45434 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: Might I also add kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewL, Recently I had a chance to be questioned at and taught by Sayadaw Pandita. He's here in California leading a retreat and my family was giving offering for breakfast and lunch. When I said not everything I read is clear then he said must practice where everything comes together. He said if the practice is proper, we should see rather gross and harsh akusala subsides, they should not even arise. I'm amazed that time during a retreat isn't considered daily life, as if you stop living. If you're still ruled by kilesas in that setting, there's not even a fighting chance in the "real world". As long as one is not a sotapanna, the kilesa seeds will again expand their influence as mindfulness slackens. Profound experiences while sitting or any position are what they are. As long as it's not magga, it's really not important. The true test is when we're met with disagreeable or agreeable objects. Do we get swept away as usual? be mindful after a while? Or not be affected at all and just note it as just another object? This is the indicator of how much de-conditioning comes from actual practice. The goal is one thing and the tools we use are another. We also find many examples of people mistaking their attainments in the suttas. The only solution is to keep striving and practicing. As for fear being a driver, we should really be scared to even waste a moment but most of us are immune to such things. My Abhidhamma teacher said in olden days before being taught the chapter on Lokas, novices would practice until they're at least sotapanna. This is due to the scariness of the existence in lower planes are described in the chapter. Now we're so numb to it, it doesn't strike the same sense of urgency. Finally it's really not about how well you know the teachings or remember the details. The path is pretty simple and clear, if you're not progressing then there's something wrong with the approach. We can't change the past hence resultants but every present moment is a chance to accumulate kusala and not generate any akusala. We know with certainty everything will give their due effect in some form, why do we still risk akusala behavior then? To observe akusala after it has fallen is merely cutting the losses because we can't change the past. Sayadaw also asked isn't it a waste of time for someone of my age to follow dhamma. I replied that it's because of dhamma I'm able to handle life at all. It's clear to me I'm just barely hanging on. As soon as my worldly responsiblities are over, there's no question where I'll go and how I'll practice. I'm not strong enough so I need a place with agreeable objects to help in my practice. I would say learning to be objective and really able to look or analyze yourself is the key. Ultimately change all the faulty behaviors that are not fitting of an ariya and we'll be one. - kel 45435 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 10:29pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhatrue Hi Phil and Tep, Tep, yes I found Phil's post most amusing. I have always found Phil's posts very amusing and entertaining: even in the early days when he couldn't figure me out and got very upset by my posts, and even now that he has become a K. Sujin devotee. Though long, Phil's posts are often filled with nuggets of wisdom and freshness. He doesn't have an attitude of `know-it-all' which I believe is very important to a Buddhist. Phil, I'm going to make some silly remarks and then some serious ones: Phil: As we know, he did. James is very sweet too. You can feel his sweetness under his occasionally obnoxious comments. James , you make my saccarine-sated heart ache with friendly feelings! James: ;-)) Now, don't go ruining my reputation. I am not sweet!! I kick puppies and chew nails everyday! ;-) Phil: Come and let me give you a big hug! No, I am coming to Egypt to give you a grrreat big bear hug! James: No, I don't think so. I will have security stop you at the airport and send you back home- I have connections ;-)) Phil: Interesting to note though, that as James suggested (I think - it's easier to reflect on the points he makes when he's not in bratty mode!) James: ;-)) `Bratty' is a pretty good description; most of my friends use `Bitchy' though. I usually have a bitchy personality (with adults)- and I do it on purpose. I want to shock people into thinking about things differently, and sometimes people just irritate me ;-). I have often wondered if I was Oscar Wilde in a previous existence. ;-) Now, some in this group may believe that this is an indictment against meditation and all that, or that they are superior because they act sweet and nice to everyone (fake), but I don't care- I'll just give them the finger! ;-)) Phil: making conciliatory comments can be conditioned by akusala as well as kusala. James: Yes, yes, yes!! That was exactly what I was saying (beneath the surface). Phil: There can be laziness about not wanting to continue a debate (this is often the case for me) lobha about having pleasant feeling of harmony rather than dispute and so on. James: I think that for most people it is the second one- wanting to feel good about the conversation- to not have any disputes so that everyone will feel happy and wonderful. There are many, many people who would do almost anything rather than make someone else upset. This is what I meant by my phrase "going to sleep with smiles on your faces." Phil: Or there can be kusala behind it, metta that arises suddenly, or right understanding re the content of the debate or so on. It depends, moment by moment. James: Yes, of course conciliatory comments can be motivated by real understanding and metta also, and that is a beautiful thing. But, it has been my experience that those who want to predominately have peace and harmony, and to never have anyone upset or bothered, do it for akusala reasons. (Not pointing fingers at anyone, just making an observation). Phil: p.s James, I will ramble on in the "Letter to James" thread on Saturday, as usual. It's becoming a Saturday night treat for me. James: Looking forward to it. BTW, I have been writing some updates about my life in Egypt that I think you might enjoy. Can you write to me off-list again so I have a working e-mail? (your other e-mail isn't working for some reason): buddhatrue@... Metta, James 45436 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: Might I also add kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Yes, hello. > > To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: > > I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the > Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, > which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not > reflect at all. I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, > and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental > perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. Hi Andrew, Hi Andrew L, All of us, nearly all the time, think, speak and act without regard for the Dhamma. That is because we are worldlings, and that is what worldlings do. (See the Mulapariyaya Sutta.) -------------------------------------------------- AL: > I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. --------------------------------------------------- In any other discipline, being unable to get a grip on the teaching would be a problem, but when we have regard for the Dhamma, it is not a problem. When we have regard for the Dhamma, we learn about 'ability' and 'inability' without the attachment that says, "This is my inability," and without the conceit that says,"I am the unable one" or the wrong view, "Inability is my self". -------------------------------------------------- AL: > So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying because I think it will lead to bad things. ------------------------------------------------------ In ordinary sensible thinking, it is helpful to know our own strengths and weaknesses. However, in the Buddha's teaching, we have to know what strengths and weaknesses ultimately are. Ultimately, they are paramattha dhammas - fleeting phenomena, which come and go before the thinking mind can possibly catch hold of them. ------------------------------- AL: > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with the people in this group. -------------------------------- :-) Ultimately, frustration is the paramattha dhamma, dosa. We never know exactly when it is present or not present. Nor do we have any control over it. If there are conditions for experiencing dosa with attachment or conceit or wrong view, then that will happen. If there are conditions for simply knowing that dosa is a conditioned dhamma, then that will happen. We can talk all we like about "I have frustration" or "I will concentrate on frustration with detachment," but those thoughts are mere concepts and not what the Buddha taught at all. ---------------------------------------------------- AL: > My whole world has revolved around sitting meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived with it. ---------------------------------------------------- Fine; if it does you good then do it. But please don't have the wrong view, "The Buddha taught control over ultimate realities." ------------------- AL: > It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of high acheivement, -------------------- You have misunderstood what Sarah was saying. No one - monk or otherwise - has control over mindfulness. The sitting meditation referred to in the suttas is about jhana absorption in which consciousness returns over and over again to the same object. For that to happen, there has to be freedom from distractions, and until there is complete mastery of the jhanas, freedom from distractions requires a rock-steady sitting posture in a quiet, remote locality. ------------------------ AL: > as I and even some popular artists in the media I know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon here or there. ------------------------ Profound it may have been, but recognising a phenomenon is infinitely more profound. That is, after all, what the Buddha taught. :-) Ken H 45437 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: Might I also add buddhatrue Hi Andrew, I haven't written to you before, but I really enjoyed this post. It is ironic that you want to leave and then you write such a nice post. Maybe you should reconsider. To make a few comments: Andrew: Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. James: This is a good thing!! Having fear of being reborn into states of deprivation will condition a lot more practice and good behavior than just theoretical understanding of the dhamma. I wish you could somehow spread that fear around! ;-) More people need it! Aharika-Anottappa is the Pali term for "lack of shame and dread". These are two of the four unwholesome states of consciousness associated with all karmically unwholesome states of consciousness (the other two being restlessness and delusion). So, it is from lack of dread (fear) that people do many horrible things and don't practice the dhamma. Paradoxically, it is your fear, Andrew, which makes you strong. Andrew: In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' James: I again agree with you here. Meditation (sitting, walking, lying, or standing) does create the conditions for seeing ultimate reality, and yet still have the ability to see conventional reality. Sarah and others talk about their meditation experiences and how they abandoned meditation, but I say that those experiences conditioned their ability to understand the Abhidhamma at all. Without meditation experience, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual to primitive peoples- it just won't make sense. However, unfortunately, those naysayers gave up meditation too soon because of their unreasonable expectations (See post #45407 by hasituppada). Now, they cannot seem to incorporate the view of conventional reality with the view of ultimate reality. Andrew: As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. James: I have had health problems also which interfere with my meditation practice. Try to solve the health problems as much as possible and use the interim time to study the Buddha's teachings. Study can condition insight (but I don't believe to the extent that same proclaim here). Good luck on the problems! Andrew: Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. James: Don't give up. Be patient. It is impossible to understand the course of vipaka (results of kamma). Andrew: Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way James: Vipaka is one of the inconceivables which the Buddha taught cannot be fathomed by the human mind (except for a Buddha). What may seem bad now may actually turn out to be good later on. Just be patient and trust in the Buddha's teachings. Andrew: If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome James: I hope my advice has been helpful. Please reconsider leaving- at least at this time. Metta, James 45438 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 11:47pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 192 - Enthusiasm/piiti (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We read in the “Mahånåma-sutta” (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, §10) that the Buddha recommended Mahånåma to recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, síla, generosity and devas (their good qualities). According to the Visuddhimagga Mahånåma was a sotåpanna, thus, he had right understanding of nåma and rúpa and he did not take any reality for self. We read: * "…Mahånåma, what time the ariyan disciple minds the Tathågata, his heart is never overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred, never overwhelmed by delusion; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of the Tathågata. And with his heart’s ways straightened, Mahånåma, the ariyan disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that is linked to Dhamma; and of his joy zest (píti) is born; when his mind is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences ease; and of him who dwells at ease the heart is composed. Mahånåma, of this ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha." * The same is said with regard to the other recollections. According to the Visuddhimagga (VII, 121) only the ariyan disciple can cultivate the above mentioned subjects with success, since the non-ariyan cannot really fathom the meaning of these subjects. If one has not attained enlightenment, how could one know what it means to be enlightened and how could one clearly understand the meaning of “Buddha”? Nevertheless, also the non-ariyan can think of the Buddha with confidence and then píti may arise as well. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45439 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James (& Tep), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: James, I think all the bodhpakkhiya dhammas you quoted refer to > dhammas or Dhammas -- whether in Suttanta or Abhidhamma. > > James: The Bodhpakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma? <...> ... S: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in different ways, stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). A lot of detail is given in the Abhidhamma. In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, there is a section on them in ch V11. In B.Bodhi’s guide to CMA, he writes: “Requisites of enlightenment: The Pali expression bodhipakkhiya dhammaa means literally “states on the side of enlightenment.” Although the expression appears rarely in the Suttas, in later literature it comes to be used as a general term for the thirty-seven factors into which the Buddha compressed the practice of his teaching (see D 16/ii,120, M 77/ii,11-12). These factors are called “requisites of enlightenment” because they conduce to the attainment of enlightenment, which is the knowledge of the four supramundane paths. The thirty-even requisites, as shown, fall into seven groups.” ***** S: In short, wisdom and the accompanying factors of enlightenment are developed to this degree by means of the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas : the four foundations of mindfulness (i.e satipatthana – awareness with wisdom, taking dhammas as objects), the four right efforts (sammaappadhanas - effort withwisdom), the four bases of success (i.e iddhi-padas –wish, effort, citta, investigation), the five faculties (i.e indriyas – confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom), the five powers (balas – confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom), the seven factors of enlightenment (bhojjangas – awareness, investigation of Dhamma/wisdom, effort, joy, calm, concentration, equanimity) and the eight Path factors (right understanding/wisdom etc) ... Metta, Sarah p.s I think the chapter on ‘The Factors leading to Enlightenment’, (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin’s “Survey of Paramattha Dhammas”, transl by Nina is very clear and you might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). =============== 45440 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > I believe that this thread is important ... S: I agree....I’m going to continue being ‘picky’ on this one:-) ... > >T: ....the 5 aggregates are anatta because they are subject to disease > (aabaadha) ... > > S: ... because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject > to disease.. > > T: Isn't it true both ways? ... S: A subtle distinction, I think. The stress being on all dhammas being anatta and therefore conditioned and not in anyone’s control. .... > T: Yes, miccha-ditthi is real just as panca kkhandha is real, in the > sense of existence at a given moment. One who has a wrong view, > does not see characteristics of dhammas the way they really are. ... S: Just to clarify, miccha-ditthi is khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. Also, the characteristic of wrong view is more than ‘not seeing’ dhammas as they are. That is the characteristic of moha (ignorance). Wrong view sees them ‘wrongly’ or in a distorted way. .... > S: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not > real. > > T: I think you may be contradicting to what you just said above. If the > wrong view of self (miccha-ditthi) is real, how can the concepts of self > > be unreal? ... S: This is important to clarify, thank you. Ditthi is a mental factor which arises with certain cittas rooted in lobha (attachment). At these moments of arising, the citta is real, the cetasikas are real, but the objects of these namas, i.e the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or whatever else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is still not clear. .... >The "concepts of self" are also a viewpoint, a ditthi. The > contradiction comes from an attachment to the Paramattha-dhamma > definition of pannatti. [:->) ... S: There can be thinking of concepts rightly or wrongly or neither rightly or wrongly.For example, there can be thinking about the great virtues of the Buddha. This is thinking rightly. Or there could be thinking that the Buddha still lives and protects us like a god. This is thinking wrongly. In the same way, there can be right and wrong thinking about ‘concepts of self’, concepts of anatta, definitions or paramattha dhammas. Likewise there can be thinking with or without attachment[:->). .... > S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were > warned:-). > > T: Please be precise -- write down the "above", because I don't know > which part of the above you referred to. > Look, you might miss a chance to abandon your extreme view of no > self! [ :->) ... S: It referred to pretty well everything I’d said in the last post so far...OK, I’ll fish it out and check, see* .... > T: It is so important that we are learning and adjusting/refining views > for > the better. Otherwise, why are we spending time discussing the > Dhamma? Thank you for the appreciation. Your discussion points are > very good too, Sarah. .... S: it’s good to talk to you, Tep and I enjoy your courteous discussions with everyone else too. Metta, Sarah * S: I think it says that because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease, and as you say, they cannot be controlled according to one’s wishes. [Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkave, ruupa.m (etc) anatta (since rupa is anatta),tasmaa ruupa.m aabaadhaaya sa.mvattati (then rupa is subject to disease),na ca labbhati ruupe: ‘eva.m me ruupa.m hotu, eva.m me ruupa.m maa ahosii’ti (one cannot obtain from rupa, may rupa be thus, may rupa not be thus).] .... <...> S: I would say, if and only if there is the illusion of self, there is the idea of being able to control the khandhas. If there were a self, rupa would not be subject to disease and one would be able to control them according to one’s wishes, but clearly this isn’t so. .... S: Miccha-ditthi is real. Wrong view is a cetasika which arises with certain kinds of cittas rooted in lobha. When it arises, there is a distorted idea of realities at that moment. The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. The ditthi itself has to be known over and over again when it arises in order for it to be eventually eradicated at the stage of sotapanna. ... S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > self is > thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements > (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta > extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the > contrary. .... S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were warned:-). ... 45441 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, Thanks for joining this discussion. --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, <...> > I must say that I have been helped greatly by 'meditating all those > hours in the day and 'living unnaturally' as you put it. :) ... S: I think I did say 'living unnaturally' for me -- I'm a reasonably sociable person as you can see here and to live silently in a forest with minimal contact and little reading is very 'unnatural'. On the other hand, here in Hong Kong's hustle bustle, I'm perfectly at home:). .... > You might note many suttas where the buddha praises a great disciple > in meditation in a jungle without even a single movement of the > body. ... S: You might also note many suttas where the opposite is true. For example, look at the Mighajala Sutta in SN about living alone in the crowds or look at Meghiya in Udana 4-1. He was the Buddha's attendant and went off to the mango grove to meditate against the Buddha's advice and was overcome by kilesa (defilements). [Lots more on the deeper meanings of seclusion etc in U.P. under 'solitude, seclusion'.] ... >You might note other places where they are practicing walking > meditation, enjoying fewness of desires and even fewer meals and > hours asleep. :) ... S: Well, I read mention of developing bhavana while walking, sitting, standing etc. Again, pls see 'Walking' in U.P. and join in Htoo's discussion:). Fewness of desires - yes, but by understanding desires and other dhammas when they arise. I usually get up pretty early and only eat one meal and a bit, but I think that has very little to do (in my case) with fewness of desires -- probably, quite the contrary:). The same applies when I take myself off somewhere quietly for half the day or do my yoga or tai chi - desire is there, no matter how calm or tranquil it might appear. .... <..> > Yes of course it is motivated by desire and a sense of self. ... S: Especially if the actions are motivated by a sense of self and this is what is being accumulated, it should be known. It doesn't mean one needs to change ones habits, but it's important to see any wrong views of self more and more at such times ... >Once > VenAnanda was questioned by an ascetic about the buddhist path and > he talks about the 4 bases of power (sathara iddipada) of which the > first one is canda, which is a form of desire. .... S: Just to be clear, the chanda which is an iddhipada is kusala (wholesome) desire. chanda can be wholesome or more usually, unwholesome. When we were referring to desire in our discussion, it was to lobha (attachment)and unwholesome desire I think. (At least I was). Matheesha, I liked your sutta summaries, but to discuss further, you'd need to give me links or references. It's true that unwholesome states can condition wholesome ones, but that doesn't mean we cultivate the unwholesome ones. For example, anger may condition some wise reflection, but it doesn't mean that anger should be cultivated. .... > There is a sutta where the buddha admonishes Anathapindika and says > that lay people should spend time in seclusion, not just giving > dana. I dont see anything wrong in spending a few weeks away on > retreat as a necessary boost to develop some of the mental faculties > the buddha speaks of. ... S: Again we'd need to look at the Buddha's words more carefully. I also don't see anything wrong with retreats as such. It always comes back to bhavana - the meaning and the present mental states. If we're not in retreat now, should we wait until we are for bhavana? .... I have benefitted greatly from it and gained > much insight which otherwise i would not have. Most sutta would be > gibberish and just studying about the 'taste of oranges' if you know > what i mean. There's no hindrence to coming back and living your > life as it is. ... S: Again, the right cause will lead to the right results. Moments of real bhavana - samatha or vipassana development will lead to great results whether on retreat or at the computer in the city. The hindrance to satipatthana is wrong view about present dhammas. ... > > I'm sorry that you feel that such experience has not been useful to > you. ... S: Again, let me stress that I think that any moments of wise reflection, wise consideration and genuine sati are very useful. Moments of trying to direct sati with an idea of self or trying to have certain mental states arise or selecting particular objects for bhavana is less than not useful:). I think this is all regardless of the situation or circumstances we find ourselves in. ... > > Do you really feel that it is not possible to experience such things > as jhana mentioned in the suttas as we presently dont have enough > good kamma, as was suggested by someone earlier? .. S: I'm not really bothered about whether it's possible to attain jhana or become an arahant today for that moment. I know that there is (in my case) so little development of samatha and satipatthana that it's more helpful to just begin to understand the present dhammas as they appear now, rather than thinking about possible attainments in future, when we can have no idea. When others talk about their attainments, it's OK. We can check what is said in the texts and see if it makes sense. See also 'Sasana - decline' in U.P. if you like. ... > > I am not questioning what works for you. We all have to tread our > different paths. Different things work for different people. <...> ... S: Iknow this is a popular view. Only one path of satipatthana leading to one eightfold Path however. Thanks for your feedback, Matheesha. I am not saying to you or anyone 'Don't meditate' or 'Don't go to the forest'. I'm jsut saying that the path is about understanding present conditioned dhammas regardless of special intentions, locations or postures. Metta, Sarah ======== 45442 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Hasituppada Charles:),(Tep, Htoo & All) --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist > term PANNA. Panna has a far wider meaning than intelligence, > intellectuality, understanding or knowledge. In its Buddhist > meaning it is part of the eight fold path and the intuitive > knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and > realization of Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary-Nyanatiloka) > The conditions for its arising is the knowledge acquired by reading > about the teaching, thinking about the teaching and practicing the > Teaching. ... S: Yes, there are different kinds and degrees of panna. All bhavana has to be with panna. ... > > Therefore the "necessary instructions" given by the Buddha are not > to be spoken of lightly, but they are to be realized through putting > them into practice. ... S: Let's just say 'practicing the Teaching', i.e patipatti or bhavana, after reading, considering and reflecting on the truths. 'Putting them into practice' can again suggest a 'doing' of something special by a self, perhaps. .... <...> > I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be > more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" > there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no > Buddhism) ... S: Please explain more what samatha is and how sitting cross-legged focussing on the breath as a Buddhist is any more samatha or satipatthana than as performed by a yoga student who has never heard about the Buddha's teachings. Did the Buddha ever say that 'If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana'? Tep & Htoo, what are your views on these points? ... > I am happy to be in a forum, where I am able to put my point of view > across without trespassing on any ones patience and politeness. ... S: Quite the contrary. You'll have a lot of support for continuing this discussion and questioning any of my comments:). .... > Dear Sarah, I have left out the rest of your message to what I wrote > to Christine as it would be more appropriate that I reply her in > case she raises those points. ... S: yes, I look forward to your further discussions with others too. Metta, Sarah ========= 45443 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (361) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads start with explanation on realities. Dhamma Thread discuss on citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatta. Dhamma Thread relate citta with different sets of combination of cetasikas. Dhamma Thread classify cittas in different ways. Cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments are explained in detail with examples and evidences. Cetasikas are grouped into different sets and they assigned as people performing their different functions. Dhamma Thread explain what is rupa and what are each rupa and their implications in loka or worlds of kaama or sensuous sphere, rupa or fine material world or sphere. Rupa are investigated as they are. Rupa are there as rupa kalaapa or aggregates of materials. Different aggregates of materials have been explained in detail. Causes of rupa dhamma are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. How rupa arises, how it falls away and how long they exist when they are living as dhamma are also explained in Dhamma Thread posts. Rupa dhamma are thoroughly discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana is discussed sensitively and explained with examples. After explanation on nibbana, pannatti dhamma is also discussed. Apart from citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana there is no other ultimate realities. Other dhamma is pannatti and panatti is not an ultimate reality. After discussions on these matters, cittas are re-classified. Then cittas in procession or vithi cittas are explained in some detail. There are 14 different functions of citta and these functions are explained along with vithi vara. After processions of cittas, vithi-mutta or procession-free cittas and their implications are explained as bhuumi or realms or as 31 planes of existence. These 31 planes of existence have to exist because of kamma or actions and kamma are then explained in different ways. Currently Dhamma Thread explain kusala kamma and punna-kiriya-vatthu. There are 31 bhuumis or 31 realms because of kamma. There are 4 kamma depending on where beings are born due to their kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. In the coming posts rupa-kusala kamma will be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45444 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: Hello all Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a sotapanna still has papanca. Right? How do we reconcile this? Best wishes Andrew T -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Andrew T, There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving [tanha], conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So they will still be proliferating their mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45445 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Hasituppada Charles:),(Tep, Htoo & All) Hasituppada wrote: > I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no Buddhism) ... Sara wrote: S: Please explain more what samatha is and how sitting cross-legged focussing on the breath as a Buddhist is any more samatha or satipatthana than as performed by a yoga student who has never heard about the Buddha's teachings. Did the Buddha ever say that 'If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana'? Tep & Htoo, what are your views on these points? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, Hasituppada, Tep and all, I can sense both sides. I am smiling to both sides. When I say 'both sides' I am not discriminating you and not classifying you into 2 group. But just for discussion. I think, Hasituppada is saying that 'without sitting means no Buddhist bhavana'. I decline it. Bhavana has definition. It is cultivation. It is breeding. It is growing of seeds, plants, trees. It is a mental exertion. It is purification of mind by mental exertions and mental actions. There is no specific mentionings on positions in relation with bhavana. But satipatthana or vipassana can practise in any position, anywhere and at any time. This seems I am supporting Sarah. But for tranquility meditation, the best position is 'a still position'. There is no way to do jhana when one is running because a tiger is following him. :-) Again there are 3 positions that support still-position. They are standing, sitting, and lying down. Standing cannot support very long like lying and sitting. Lying may stray the mind and cause less effort than sitting. So sitting is the best position. Choosing a right place is also good. Do not say that this is ritual. 'Will you choose a disco night to do jhana?' :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 45446 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread (362) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kammas or 'catu-catukka kamma'. Depending on 'the function of kamma' there are janaka kamma or regenerative kamma, upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma, upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma and upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma. Depending on 'seniority in timing of giving rise to results, there are garuka kamma or heavy kamma, asanna kamma or frequenting kamma, acinna kamma or practised kamma and katattaa kamma or olden kamma. Depending on 'the timing of result-giving', there are dittha-dhamma- vedaniiya kamma or 'visible kamma', upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or 'coming kamma', aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or 'next-coming kamma' and ahosi kamma or non-fruitful kamma. Depending on bhuumi that kamma can give rise to, there are akusala kamma or 'unwholesome kamma', kaama kusala kamma or 'sensuous wholesome kamma', ruupa kusala kamma or 'fine material wholesome kamma', and aruupa kamma or 'non-material wholesome kamma'. Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been discussed to some detail. In the coming post rupa kusala kamma and rupa jhana will be discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45447 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:18am Subject: Saving Rescue ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Ten Liberators: Sariputta once said: 1: The experience of Thorough & Steadfast Disgust. 2: The experience of Rapidly Approaching Death. 3: The experience of Dislike with all & any Food. 4: The experience of Dispassion with the whole World. 5: The experience of the Inevitable Impermanence. 6: The experience of the Frustration inherent in Change. 7: The experience of the Impersonality within Frustration. 8: The experience of Letting Go and Leaving all Behind. 9: The experience of Disinterested & Detached Disillusion. 10: The experience of Calming, Stilling, Ceasing & Ending. These 10 perceptions are real, true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly realized, comprehended & formulated by the Buddha. They cool all craving, relinquish all clinging, and still all urge... They are therefore to be remembered, recited & reflected over repeatedly.. When made arise, they release mind into Bliss & Peace! Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45448 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 4:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (363) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These are kamma when ruupa jhanas are being developed. That is the cetana cetasika that arise in ruupa jhanas become ruupa kusala kamma. As there are 5 ruupa jhaanas then there are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana But in practical there seem to be 4 ruupa jhaana. Because it is very very difficult to ascend up as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. What happens is jhaana arise in ascending order like 1, 3, 4, 5. 2nd jhaana in 5-step jhaana is difficult to obtain. As there are 5 limbs of jhaana there has to be 5 jhaana kusala cittas. And so there seem to be 5 ruupa jhaana in terms of abhidhamma. But in real practice, what happens is 1,3,4,5 and there are only 4 jhaanas. This is proved by ruupa jhaana bhuumi. There is no 5th jhaana bhuumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45449 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 5:28am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Please recall that Section i defines the eight kinds of knowledge of obstacles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids in Group I (the first of the 10 groups, I - X, in the Summary). This Section ii examines Group II (eighteen kinds of knowledge of perfection). Please notice that commentaries are given in the square brackets [ ]. They are the same as, but contain less detail than those in Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga. [Section ii] 6. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from these hindrances develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds, the following eighteen imperfections(upakilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations(samodhaana). [PTS Text, vol. i, p. 164, 1.2. "When the imperfections arise, they do so successively from moment to moment, in momentary sequence, not in a single moment of cognizance".] What eighteen imperfections arise? (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of an in-breath, his cognizance becomes distracted(vikkhepa) internally, and that is an obstruction(antaraaya) to concentration (samaadhi). ["Of the breath entering inwards, the nose-tip or the upper lip is the beginning, the heart the middle, and the navel the end". PsA 322 S. The out-breath is the other way around.] (2) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of an out-breath, his cognizance becomes distracted externally, and that is an obstruction to concentration. (3) Such behavior of craving(tanhaa) as hope for, and attachment (nikhanti) to, in-breath is an obstruction to concentration. (4) Such behavior of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out-breath is an obstruction to concentration. (5) Any longing for out-breath in him, when he is fatigued by [too long or too short] in-breath, is an obstruction to concentration. (6) Any longing for in-breath in him, when he is fatigued by out-breath, is an obstruction to concentration. ["Desire in the form of longing for continued gross in-breaths after concluding that 'This meditation subject depends on the passage of wind through the nostrils' is manifestation of craving, which obstructs concentration through lack of establishment in the unities... One makes a very long or a very short in- breth can be irritated and plagued by that in-breath because of the bodily and mental fatigue caused by it." PsA 322 S.] 7. Mindfulness running after in-breath And running after out-breth, too, Expecting distraction inwardly, Loving distraction outwardly, The longing for out-breath in one Who is by in-breath much fatigued, The longing for in-breath in one, Who is by out-breath much fatigued, These six defects in concentration Based upon mindfulness of breathing Are such as will prevent release of cognizance that they distract; And those who know not liberation Perforce must trust in others' words. 8. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjita) to the sign, his cognizance is shakable by in-breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. ["The sign is the place where the in-breaths and out-breaths touch. For in-breaths and out-breaths as they occur strike the nose-tip of one with a long nose and the upper lip of one with a short nose." PsA 323 S] (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is shakable by the sign, this is an obstacle to concentration. (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is shakable by out- breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is shakable by the sign, this is an obstruction to concentration. (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is shakable by out- breath, this is an obstruction to concentration. (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is shakable by in- breath, this is an obstruction to concentration. 9. Adverting to the sign the while the mind Is still distracted by in-breath; Adverting to in-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by the sign; Adverting to the sign the while the mind Is still distracted by out-breath; Adverting to out-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by the sign; Adverting to in-breath the while the mind Is still distracted by out-breath; Adverting to out-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by in-breath; These six defects in concentration Based on mindfulness of breathing Are such as will prevent release Of cognizance that they can shake; And those who know not liberation Perforce must trust in others' words. 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past [breaths] is attacked by distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. [This is "Cognizance that follows after in-breath or out-breath that has passed beyond the place of contact and gone away from it". The next is "Cognizance that expects and awaits in-breath not yet arrived at the place of contact" PsA 323 S]. (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] is an obstruction to concentration. (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an obstruction to concentration. (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and is an obstruction to concentration. (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to concentration. (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to concentration. Tep's Comment: The remaining part of this Section ii, which explains the 18 imperfections above, will be posted next Friday, 5/20/05. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45450 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Might I also add upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew & James - Andrew, I would like to second all that James has to say in the following. I think that we all benefit from your presence here and that you benefit from being here. I think that one of the most important things we can learn is that there need not, even should not, be a choice between perfection and nothing-at-all, because until we reach complete perfection the choice will always be nothing-at-all, a harmful choice. Please do remain here, and more importantly, please continue to exert serious effort in continuing to practice, regardless of how your mind tends to think "Oh, it's not good enough" or "Conditions make it worthless," for that is just the defilements speaking. They speak loudly in all of us, and nothing shuts them up better than maintaining a regular practice regardless of what the "quality" of that practice might seem to be. When one is *aware* of difficulties, imperfection, and defilements in oneself, IMO this indicates not a deficiency but progress! There is none so lost who isn't even aware there is a problem! Second only to that unawareness in "danger" is knowing that things are imperfect and falsely concluding that giving up is the right response. Please continue to walk the middle path with ease and happiness, and without self-imposed requirements and expectations. Have courage, my friend, and other than being clearly aware of them, let difficult conditions and defilements alone, to come and go as they will. Just persevere as best you can in a relaxed and happy way. With metta, Howard In a message dated 5/13/05 2:10:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Andrew, I haven't written to you before, but I really enjoyed this post. It is ironic that you want to leave and then you write such a nice post. Maybe you should reconsider. To make a few comments: Andrew: Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. James: This is a good thing!! Having fear of being reborn into states of deprivation will condition a lot more practice and good behavior than just theoretical understanding of the dhamma. I wish you could somehow spread that fear around! ;-) More people need it! Aharika-Anottappa is the Pali term for "lack of shame and dread". These are two of the four unwholesome states of consciousness associated with all karmically unwholesome states of consciousness (the other two being restlessness and delusion). So, it is from lack of dread (fear) that people do many horrible things and don't practice the dhamma. Paradoxically, it is your fear, Andrew, which makes you strong. Andrew: In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' James: I again agree with you here. Meditation (sitting, walking, lying, or standing) does create the conditions for seeing ultimate reality, and yet still have the ability to see conventional reality. Sarah and others talk about their meditation experiences and how they abandoned meditation, but I say that those experiences conditioned their ability to understand the Abhidhamma at all. Without meditation experience, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual to primitive peoples- it just won't make sense. However, unfortunately, those naysayers gave up meditation too soon because of their unreasonable expectations (See post #45407 by hasituppada). Now, they cannot seem to incorporate the view of conventional reality with the view of ultimate reality. Andrew: As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. James: I have had health problems also which interfere with my meditation practice. Try to solve the health problems as much as possible and use the interim time to study the Buddha's teachings. Study can condition insight (but I don't believe to the extent that same proclaim here). Good luck on the problems! Andrew: Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. James: Don't give up. Be patient. It is impossible to understand the course of vipaka (results of kamma). Andrew: Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way James: Vipaka is one of the inconceivables which the Buddha taught cannot be fathomed by the human mind (except for a Buddha). What may seem bad now may actually turn out to be good later on. Just be patient and trust in the Buddha's teachings. Andrew: If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome James: I hope my advice has been helpful. Please reconsider leaving- at least at this time. Metta, James /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45451 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah,Nina,KenH, Jon, Tep, Htoo, Matheesha and Christine. Sarrah, thank you for the message. I explained in the several posts I submitted most of what I know about meditation. One may practice, the reality of the present moment, smamtha, vipassana,satipatthana, sitting, standing, lying down, swimming, driving,running or jumping. I do Bhavana sitting down, and I am mindful of the four positions and I do walking meditation. All these are a part of Bhavana, which is Samatha followed by Vipassana. All the instructions for my purpose are found in the Mahasatipattahna Sutta . And I read instructive Suttas time to time. What is important is that you keep in touch with the Dhamma, whatever you do with it, or however you apply it in your life. I thank you all who participated in this discussion with me and my special thanks to Tep who brought me into it. with metta, Hasituppada 45452 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: Saving Rescue ... !!! foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Ten Liberators: > > Sariputta once said: On Friday, May 13, 2005, at 02:18 AM, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: Friends: The Ten Liberators: Sariputta once said: 1: The experience of Thorough & Steadfast Disgust. 2: The experience of Rapidly Approaching Death. 3: The experience of Dislike with all & any Food. 4: The experience of Dispassion with the whole World. 5: The experience of the Inevitable Impermanence. 6: The experience of the Frustration inherent in Change. 7: The experience of the Impersonality within Frustration. 8: The experience of Letting Go and Leaving all Behind. 9: The experience of Disinterested & Detached Disillusion. 10: The experience of Calming, Stilling, Ceasing & Ending. These 10 perceptions are real, true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly realized, comprehended & formulated by the Buddha. They cool all craving, relinquish all clinging, and still all urge... They are therefore to be remembered, recited & reflected over repeatedly.. When made arise, they release mind into Bliss & Peace! Bhikkhu Samahita, Your last post reminds me of the "indifference of nature" that I grew up with as a child and through most of my adult years. I didn't realize this special kind of 'indifference' until I had to leave it and I was sitting on a sub way train in Chicago andI saw a solitary tree in the middle of the cities business. I"m grateful for your posts thank you. http://www.oregonlive.com/galleries/travel/portlandoregon.ssf?/cgi-bin/slide-show.cgi/olive/slide_show_wcard.ata?index=0&g_id=2807 http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/100_0046.JPG http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/000_0001.JPG http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/100_0046.JPG With metta, Lisa 45453 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05am Subject: Going to see my Grandson and Grandmother foamflowers Hi everyone, I've been really busy of late working two jobs and all and now I'm taking off to see my first Grandchild. My family, two sisters besides me and I'm the oldest (46) and my Mother, Grandmother (90), my daughter (26)and my grandson, (6) months and (2) brothers in law, (1) son in law, and my sister's children (19, 16, 5, and 2) all healthy and doing well! I have four grown children and that is the reason I started Buddhism actually. So I could find that calm spot in the middle of the storm of my life and stay centered as my family grew up and finally left to live their own lives. The Art of Living and the Art of Dying, my Grandmother may not be here next year she has been ill with small stokes so this is a special time, new life just started and old life soon to pass. Say a prayer of protection for my boyfriend, all the women in my family are going to hug, kiss and feed him to death! I hope he survives...lol... I will be gone through the weekend and be back to posting my scribble some time mid-week. With Metta, Lisa 45454 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 8:33am Subject: The Art of Dying htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Freinds, We were born here on this earth and we all are ready to die whether we individually have prepared to die or not. The art of dying! There are many different ways of dying. 1. die in despair 2. die with shock 3. die helplessly 4. die restlessly 5. die agitated 6. die greedily 7. die cheerfully 8. die calmly 9. die peacefully 10.die mournfully 11.die clearly 12.die still 13.die liberated We cannot choose any of these as our mode of death as we cannot know when it comes. But we all can prepre for our death so that we do not die in despair, with shock, helplessly, restlessly, agitated, greedily, mournfully. How to prepare! Just to breed a good habit. Habit develops with repeated practice. Near dying there is a race. A race of kamma. We have done a lot in this life however old we are. Among them the most prominent kamma come out as leading kamma. If we have grown a good habit, this may probably help peaceful death. May you all be free of akusala. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45455 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Howard and other interested members - I appreciate your attention to the story of my walking-meditation experience, Htoo. Meditation is not hallucination or a pretending-to-be- important kind of activity: it is something sincere people do, and you know that. Since by its very nature it is one person's personal experience, unless you have similar and more advanced meditation skills you don't know if I am telling a true or a false story. Yet, at the minimum, by sharing our meditation experiences we can learn from each other. > Tep: > Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and > have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. > Htoo: > As I am on the same activities I do know what you are describing. > What is important is that there is no discontinuity in naana or > wisdom. > > If you really reached higher stages, you will have been printed with > a seal called sotapatti magga or above. Otherwise there always is > discontinuity. > > There is no particular time that naama and ruupa are clearly > distinguished. So it starts with the first consciousness till the > last consciousness in a day just before slipping into deep sleep. > > DSG will say that 'understanding' is important and will deny special > activities. > Tep: It is true that a "clearly distinguished" naama or ruupa may arise anytime, the event is not random. It is not a Roulette game: it depends on a number of deterministic factors such as meticulousness and continuity as said by Sayadaw U Pandita in the book, "In This Very Life". Like Niana said, sati and viriya can be accumulated and these are supportive conditions. The "atapi sampajjano satima" person will achieve samadhi. Tep: Now may I ask you to continue the discussion of gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii' ti pajaanaati to the next two body postures? : Thito vaa 'thitomhii' ti pajaanaati, While he is standing, he knows properly: "I am standing"; nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii' ti pajaanaati, .. while he is sitting, he knows properly: "I am sitting".. [From Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam, Vipassana Research Institute.] It is relatively easy to know properly ( or know in detail, as you put it) while you are walking. But when you are standing or sitting still, it is not easy to have sati and sampajjanna in the body posture for a long time. The mind will get agitated or become restless, because it is the nature of untrained minds to behave like that. It is a demonstration of the uddhacca hindrance in action. The walking meditation, which also incorporates standing meditation, is a good practice to overcome the hindrances such as uddhacca(agitation) and tina-middha(stiffness and torpor). Once you can rid the mind of all 5 hindrances, you will attain the 1st jhana citta. Am I correct in making such a conclusion? Respectfully yours, Tep ======= 45456 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi Hasituppada and all DSG friends - It was a pleasure to have Charles Perera (Hasituppada) as our "guest speaker" on meditation (samatha-vipassana bhavana, as Charles puts it). Sincere students of Buddhism and Buddhists who have unshaken saddha in the Buddha must have at least one thing in common -- the intention to penetrate the Four Noble Truths. I believe that people with such strong kusala cetana cannot be narrow-minded. Therefore, based on this reasoning, I can say with confidence, Charles, that our DSG members truly appreciated your several posts in the past two weeks. Personally, I want to thank you for accepting my invitation and for your unique contribution to the DSG forum. Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Sarah,Nina,KenH, Jon, Tep, Htoo, Matheesha and Christine. > > Sarrah, thank you for the message. I explained in the several posts > I submitted most of what I know about meditation. One may practice, > the reality of the present moment, smamtha, vipassana,satipatthana, > sitting, standing, lying down, swimming, driving,running or jumping. > > I do Bhavana sitting down, and I am mindful of the four positions > and I do walking meditation. All these are a part of Bhavana, which > is Samatha followed by Vipassana. > > All the instructions for my purpose are found in the > Mahasatipattahna Sutta . And I read instructive Suttas time to time. > > What is important is that you keep in touch with the Dhamma, > whatever you do with it, or however you apply it in your life. > > I thank you all who participated in this discussion with me and my > special thanks to Tep who brought me into it. > > with metta, > Hasituppada 45457 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view matheesha333 Hello Andrew T, A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere. I could find you the exact sutta which explains this but im feeling a bit lazy right now, so pleas excuse me! I hope it is not a life or death matter. :) take care Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? > > Best wishes > Andrew T 45458 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Going to see my Grandson and Grandmother sarahprocter... Wow Lisa, So your grandmother is a great, great grandmother:-) Hope you have a super time and that your boyfriend survives the challenge. --- Lisa wrote: <...> > I will be gone through the weekend and be back to posting my scribble > some time mid-week. ... S: Noted and will look forward very much to more of your 'scribble' then. I'm sure you'll have some great 'dhamma reflections with family generations in daily life' to share....Nina will be back to enjoy them too. You're certainly a very energetic granny...:-). Have fun and sati with the baby! Metta, Sarah ======= 45460 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Hasituppada Charles, I agree with all Tep's comments below -- very nicely said, Tep and thank you also for encouraging these posts. I hope we don't need to wait too long before yor next 'flurry' of posts, Hasituppada Charles. I always appreciate your input and our discussions a lot - even when we reach different conclusions here. Best wishes in the meantime with samatha-vipassana bhavana. Metta, Sarah p.s I know Nina will be very glad if you stay around or join in any discussions on Abhidhamma anytime. She always likes your questions and hearing from you too. ====== --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Hasituppada and all DSG friends - > > It was a pleasure to have Charles Perera (Hasituppada) as our "guest > speaker" on meditation (samatha-vipassana bhavana, as Charles > puts it). Sincere students of Buddhism and Buddhists who have > unshaken saddha in the Buddha must have at least one thing in > common -- the intention to penetrate the Four Noble Truths. I believe > that people with such strong kusala cetana cannot be narrow-minded. > Therefore, based on this reasoning, I can say with confidence, Charles, > that our DSG members truly appreciated your several posts in the past > two weeks. > > Personally, I want to thank you for accepting my invitation and for >your unique contribution to the DSG forum. 45461 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > Dear Andrew T, > > There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving > [tanha], > conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. > > By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. > Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. > > When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have > conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So > they will still be proliferating their mind. Dear Htoo Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka-vicara? I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your Dhamma knowledge. Best wishes Andrew T PS I see that Matheesha has replied also. Thank you. 45462 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Htoo: > I like your words and K Sujin's words. Descriptive, prescriptive > things. S: I am very happy that you appreciate this distinction. Many don't, and some would even go to the extreme of taking the example of the Buddha's disciples including Sariputta, or even the Buddha's own experience of enlightenment, to justify continuing with their conventional practices. This shows how little appreciation there is, of paccaya and how much importance is given to certain activities. We can't read a Sutta without taking into consideration the level of understanding, hence the possibility of `misunderstanding'. Besides lobha is also always there to influence even when the understanding is correct, how much more so when there is wrong understanding. First we think the practice is all about `what they did' and what some revered monks today `do'. Then we justify what we do by adding the epithet `right effort' and even choose to interpret samma sankapa as `right intention' . :-/ You also said; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > 'When going, he detailed-knows he goes'. As you said this is nothing. > But this is conventional things and we do not need to see just > superficial. > > As you said, this is descriptive and not prescriptive. > > So it is WRONG to perceive as 'We must know when we go as we are > going'. > > The meaning in the whole sentence is that 'there are many ruupas, > they arise, persist, fall away and there are naama, they arise, > persist, and fall away. This is not only in us but also in others. > There are causes and when these causes are not there they will vanish > and so the practitoner clearly see these with good mindfulness > diligently and he is not on any of wrong ideas and he at the time of > seeing naama and ruupa is said to be liberated' S: But then at the end you say; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. S: So today I would like to talk about something I once mentioned to you, last year I think, namely, "What a beginner needs to hear". But I think I will go into this later, my children are about to come down and the weekend is usually no time to write mails. Just enough time maybe for a short comment to this part of your post; --------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Actually 'satipatthana' was preached many many times in many places > and by many arahats including Sariputta, Moggalana and others. I said > satipatthana and I do not say 'satipatthana sutta'. S: Yes the Way is indeed Satipatthana. This is why some of us would go further and say to the effect that in *all* the suttas, satipatthana is implied. And this adds weight the understanding that the actual sutta itself, i.e. 'satipatthana sutta', can't be about `things to "do"', doesn't it? And though of course, the Buddha encouraged all levels of kusala, especially the development of parami. This latter cannot be said to be developing if there is not any understanding of those dhammas as and when they arise. Also as I see it, all the teachings related to jhana in the Suttas, is not ultimately about "how to develop jhana", but indeed to understand this in light of the practice of satipatthana. Why would the Buddha teach jhana when he could vipassana? Must end here. Metta, Sukinder 45463 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Coming in behind the pack as usual ;-)) Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It takes courage to do that with this lot here ;-)) There is one point in your message that I am in full agreement with, and that is where you explain that at moments of knowing nama and rupa (i.e., of insight) there is also samatha because the mind is concentrated and calm. As you will appreciate, this means that if insight is being developed, so is samma-samadhi, right concentration. I believe this goes part way towards explaining why in the suttas samma-samadhi is often described in terms of the jhanas. By the time insight has been developed to the stage of enlightenment, the accompanying samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana (regardless of whether mundane jhana has previously been developed). As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). Do you think it possible that references to the 4 postures could be intended to mean something like 'at any time regardless of the posture', much like we might say in ordinary speech 'day or night', 'whether awake or sleeping', etc? Appreciating this and your other threads. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Howard, Hasituppada, KenH, Sukiner, Nina and others - > > I'd like to tell you a story that may explain why walking meditation can > be both samatha (tranquillity) and vipassana(insight), based on my > own experience. ... > When I am fully aware of each movement of the body (walking, > stopping, standing, turning back) and when I know its begining and its > ending, that is knowing ruupa. Then there are gladness and calm > (these are nama) arising, and I am fully aware of them when they > arise and when they persist. That is knowing nama. Because the > mind is concentrated and calm now; that is samatha. ... 45464 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 10:51pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 193 - Enthusiasm/piiti (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We cannot induce the arising of kusala píti, it can only arise because of its own conditions. Shortly after kusala píti has arisen and fallen away, attachment is bound to arise. We may feel very satisfied about “our kusala” and we may find it very important to have píti. We may think that it can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. It is essential to realize the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta; thus we will see that there are not kusala cittas all the time, even when we think that we are performing kusala. We may expect pleasant things from other people, we like to be praised by them, we want to show others our good qualities and our knowledge, or we are attached to the company of people. Defilements are so deeply rooted and they arise whenever there is an opportunity for their arising. There are many objects which can condition lobha and lobha can be accompanied by somanassa and píti. Enthusiasm which is unwholesome can arise very shortly after enthusiasm which is wholesome and it is hard to know their difference. We may find it discouraging to discover that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, but at the moment of knowing akusala citta as it is there is right understanding. At such a moment the citta is kusala citta and there is no aversion nor feeling of discouragement. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45465 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:08pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 Dear Htoo I have woken up a little and realised that my (new) question below is not really what I am after. Of course, vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika) etc. Sorry! (-: Especially in the West, I understand, we consider humans to be "thinking" beings ("I think, therefore I am" Descartes etc.). As has been noted on DSG before (by Jon and others), a view has arisen in modern Buddhism that thinking is antithetical to sati (mindfulness/awareness). "If only I could stop thinking, I would be more mindful." Who hasn't been told by a 'meditation master' that the Buddha instructed us to empty our minds of thoughts so that we can be concentrated and make progress? So I have been reflecting upon the worldling and the relationship between vitakka-vicara and sati. It feels like we have much vitakka- vicara and little sati and this no doubt leads people to consider that there is some sort of inverse relationship between the 2. This in turn leads some to exercise effort to avoid thinking so that more sati may arise. But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka-vicara? And when more panna arises, more sati arises? Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? Many thanks and best wishes Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > Dear Andrew T, > > > > There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving > > [tanha], > > conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. > > > > By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. > > Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. > > > > When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have > > conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So > > they will still be proliferating their mind. > > Dear Htoo > > Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you > another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a > mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka- vicara? > > I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your > Dhamma knowledge. > > Best wishes > Andrew T > > PS I see that Matheesha has replied also. Thank you. 45466 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Jon), Tep, to help you out with this point made by Jon: Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. Metta, James 45467 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your efforts to answer this question for me. See, as Tep observed, I don't bite. ;-) Sarah: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in different ways, stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). James: I still don't see the connection. It seems that `dhammas' as it relates to aspects of the suttas is different than `dhammas' as it relates to the Abhidhamma. Here you aren't really saying that the Bodhipakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma, you are saying that they have corresponding cittas and cetasikas listed in the Abhidhamma- and that isn't the same thing. But really, this is a minor issue that I'm not keenly interested in. Sarah: I think the chapter on `The Factors leading to Enlightenment', (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", transl by Nina is very clear and you might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). James: I will get to this part later, but this note of yours was the condition for me to start reading some of K. Sujin's writings on Abhidhamma.org and it has been quite an eye-opener. I have been reading her praising the benefits of meditation and the purposeful radiation of metta toward others (even how `pouring water' can help to transfer merit to the deceased- a rather Thai influenced ceremony). Maybe Htoo is right when he says that some here misconstrue her teachings and misrepresent her?? Metta, James 45468 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >As I love definitions, I would define dhamma in this way. > >There are dhammas and they are dhammas. They are citta, cetasikas, >ruupa and nibbana. > >If something is not from any of these mentioned things, that >something >is not in the castegory of dhamma. > >So as you said 'what is not real are all pannatti'. > > Thanks for this, and I'm very glad to find we agree on what 'pannatti' means. As I see it, a proper understanding of the meaning of 'dhammas' is crucial to the study of the teachings. Without that, insight cannot be developed. The teachings are all about (directly) knowing, and seeing as they truly are, those dhammas that can be known. With dhammas as the object of insight development, their 3 characteristics (of impermanence, suffering and not-self) can become known; without that specific development, the 3 characteristics cannot be directly known, and there can only be a certain level of appreciation of them. Jon 45469 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. jonoabb Hi Hasituppada Thanks for your heartfelt post, and your concern for my well-being as regards development of the path. Just to reassure you on the latter, an interest in the Abhidhamma does not mean a lack of interest in or reliance on the suttas. Rather, since both point to the same truths and principles, an understanding of one supports the understanding of the other. The reason we need the support of the Abhidhamma in coming to understand the suttas is that those to whom the suttas were originally addressed were far more advanced along the path than we today are, and what was obvious to the listeners then has to be spelt out in detail for us now. Now I'd like to express a concern about something you have written. You say that you are happy to rely on teachers, rather than read the suttas and other texts yourself. I would urge you to reconsider this approach. The only way to evaluate what a teacher teaches is to oneself have a working knowledge of the texts. Trying to evaluate what a teacher tells us 'putting it into practice' cannot yield a reliable answer, because our perception is tainted by our own wrong view. Thanks for your many contributions of late. Jon >The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 >years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the Tipitaka, >when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about the >present reality ? > >... > >Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just to >mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to follow >the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from >Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. > >In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who saw >through it and started teaching us the importance of the reality >of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts rejected >by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. > >... > >I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma >discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. > > 45470 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Ego-Projection ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The 20 Kinds of False 'Self'-Projection: What are the 20 invalid Theories of an only apparently existing 'self' ? 1: My 'self' is identical with my Body; this physical matter is my 'self'. 2: My 'self' have a Body, this physical matter is owned by my 'self'. 3: My 'self' is hidden inside the Body, included within the form of the Body . 4: This Body form is hidden inside & included within my extensive 'self'. 5: My 'self' is identical with my Feelings; pain, pleasure & neither are my 'self'. 6: My 'self' have Feelings, these sensations are owned by my very 'self'. 7: My 'self' is hidden inside the Feelings, included within any sensation. 8: These Feelings are hidden inside & included within my pervading 'self'. 9: My 'self' is identical with my Perceptions, these experiences are my 'self'. 10: My 'self' have Perceptions, these experiences are owned by my very 'self'. 11: My 'self' is hidden inside these Perceptions, included in all experiences. 12: These Experiences are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. 13: My 'self' is identical with my mental Constructions, activities are my' self'. 14: My 'self' have Constructions, these activities are owned by my 'self'. 15: My 'self' is hidden inside the Constructions, included in any & all activity. 16: These Constructions are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. 17: My 'self' is identical with my Consciousness, this bare awareness is my 'self'. 18: My 'self' has a Consciousness, this naked awareness is owned by my 'self'. 19: My 'self' is hidden inside the Consciousness, included in all aware moments. 20: This Consciousness is hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. Why are these 20 common assumptions invalid, erroneous, wrong and false ? Because the concept of a Self inherently implies that: 1: It is something constant over time: an identical 'same self'. 2: That it is 'self'-controllable i.e. fully independent & autonomic. 3: That it is pleasant, since if self was not pleasant and the 'Self' really was in power, it would make whatever is self become pleasant. However, neither body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness is constant and the same even for a moment... Therefore they cannot possibly ever qualify as a same 'self' nor be identical with any stable & definable identity...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness fully controllable... Neither can they therefore ever meet the requirements of a 'self'...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness always pleasant... Neither can they therefore ever contain or coincide with any 'self'...!!! Could the assumed ''self'' be a combination of any of 1-20? No so! Why not? If 'self' is not found within any of 1-20, it cannot ever be a collection of them! 1-5-9-13-&-17 are examples of illusory identification with mere passing states... 2-6-10-14-&-18 are examples of fictitious immanence & invented ownership... 3-7-11-15-&-19 are examples of hidden inclusion in something becoming otherwise... 4-8-12-16-&-20 are examples of phony possessing as an invisible acquisition... This doctrine of selflessness, anatta, No self, Not Anyone, Anything, Anywhere is particular to the Buddhas. No other is able to discover, comprehend nor teach this! The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere ... Source: The Moderate Speeches of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 106 [ii 106] The Way to the Imperturbable. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45471 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >As I love definitions, I would define dhamma in this way. Thanks for this, and I'm very glad to find we agree on what 'pannatti' means. As I see it, a proper understanding of the meaning of 'dhammas' is crucial to the study of the teachings. Without that, insight cannot be developed. The teachings are all about (directly) knowing, and seeing as they truly are, those dhammas that can be known. With dhammas as the object of insight development, their 3 characteristics (of impermanence, suffering and not-self) can become known; without that specific development, the 3 characteristics cannot be directly known, and there can only be a certain level of appreciation of them. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. I totally agree what you reply. When the understanding of dhamma is not based, how will it be possible to build up higher understanding for direct knowledge. Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. But I do not know when will that be. 45472 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:01am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Time for my weekly installment > Phil: (It seems that ignorance is a paramattha dhamma, with its own > characteristics, rather than just being the absence of understanding > that I would have thought it to be.) > > James: You would have to explain more what you mean here. Ignorance > takes many forms and I don't understand how it could be seen as a > paramattha dhamma. The Buddha taught that the mind is luminous and it > is the defilements which block the luminosity of the mind. Ph: Well, the defilements *are* paramattha dhammas, so that fits. I have trouble understanding ignorance as something other than an absence of understanding, but if we think of defilements blocking out inherent luminosity of mind, it sounds like the black, dark curtain that you-know-who speaks of, a substantial something that blocks understanding. Bhikkhu Bodhi says this of ignorance, from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: "Its function is non- penetration, or concealment of the real nature of the object. It is manifested as the absence of right understanding or as mental darkness." So that's back to more of an absence of right understanding, non-penetration... We know all akusala cittas are rooted in moha (ignorance), at least, and usually in either dosa or lobha as well. It seems easier to be aware of dosa - as a friend said, it appears as an enemy. Lobha is more insidious. Cittas that are rooted in moha only are accompanied by either restlessness or doubt. So perhaps when we are aware of restlessness or doubt we are a little closer to an opportunity to understand this moha.. perhaps. > Phil: Proliferation, this sea of concepts. > > James: So, if by `sea of concepts' K. Sujin means mental > proliferation, I have no disagreement with her. However, it is a > rather unfortunate metaphor because it implies that the concepts > somehow arise 'outside of oneself', while in actuality the > proliferation of concepts is and feeds the false sense of `self'. Ph: Of course, it's as you say. She doesn't mean otherwise. These concepts only exist as a result of our ignorance of the realites. It's not as if there is a sea of them out there already and we fall into them. As for proliferation, I'm not clear about whether proliferation means extensive mental formation, or whether even when there is just a failure to see realites there is therfore proliferation. Sorry - I'm sleepy and not writing clearly. For example, we know proliferation is something like I described with seeing that rubber ball and spinning off on memories, sadness etc. But is it also papanca if we see a person and take that person as something real (ie fail, as we always do, to get at the realities) but don't go any further than that? No, I guess papanca is about obsessing further on things... > > Phil: Let me give you an example. The other day I walked in a park on > a lovely spring day. I found myself looking at some brightly- coloured > rubber balls > James: Thanks for this wonderful illustration. Wow, you do get carried > away with thoughts! Ph: Don't you do this sort of thing as well? doesn't everyone? >However, the good thing is that you are able to > trace the thoughts and follow them (the sign of a creative writer), > which will hopefully lessen the proliferation in the future. Ph: Well, I'm not sure that has to do with creative writing, but I guess intellectual understanding of the way the mind works might be conditioning this kind of crude awareness of mental processes. > Meditation could help in this regard. Ph: I can see how formal meditation might make us more aware of the way the mind works. I can see that. Emphasis on might. I remember when I was interested in meditation I used the analogy of swimming. Learn to swim in a swimming pool, and it will be so much easier to swim in the open sea. Sitting and watching the way thoughts move could condition seeing the way they move during daily life. I may meditate again some day, if conditions bring it around. > > Phil: But there is danger in sitting down to meditate and not > realizing it's all about lobha, comfort, self-pleasure as well. (Not > that it is for you - but it was for me.) > > James: Then you need to examine what your motivations were at the time > and readjust your practice. Meditation isn't harmful just because you > approached it in a harmful way. Ph: If a meditation teacher appears in my life, and I come to live in a way removed from a great onslaught of sense objects, it could happen. Doesn't look likely. For now, I don't feel I can satisfy the condition the Buddha lays down at the beginning of the satipatthana sutta - "having set aside covetnousness and grief for the world" - until we have done that, as Bhikkhu Bodhi says, it will not be fruitful meditation. I personally feel that people cannot live in the sensation drenched modern world and claim to "set aside coventousness and grief for the world." But if that comes to be, semehow, I may meditate again. > (And no, my meditation isn't about lobha, > comfort, and self-pleasure! You make it sound like watching a porno > movie! LOL! ;-)) Ph: I didn't put that very well, did I? ;) But I do feel that for many people, there is a therapeautic aspect to meditation that doesn't have anything to dow withe developing insight. I have read dhamma talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at access to insight. He talks about being "bathed in the breath", using the breath to soothe points of tension and so on. Like the venerable who visited us last year did. Meditating for pleasant feeling, or so it seems to me. It was reading those talks by TB ("40 meditatins?")that made me start to wonder why on earth I was meditatitng, and that was before I came to DSG. But I am not closing my mind to the possibility of meditating again. > > > James: Good. I would just suggest you combine the dhamma with your > writing ability- in that way you will reach more people. And the > dhamma isn't all about rainbows and sunshine, it is also about > confronting conflicts/problems and overcoming them with wisdom. That > can make some good stories! ;-) Ph: It would be fairly easy to write something about using brahma- viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. It would be bad Dhamma, of course. I tend to feel that people get Abhidhamma, or they don't, and no amount of good writing will change that. And if they don't get Abhihdamma, they won't really understand the suttas because they will interpret them too subjectively. Abhidhamma prevents us from doing that, or at least makes it less likely. Just my opinion. I will write my picture book stories, and hope that they will provide people will some comfort and encouragement, but they won't have anything to do with Dhamma. But who knows what will come in the future? > > Phil: And to be honest I'm loing interest in trying to convince you or > anyone else about the benefits of Abhidhamma. To each his own, > according to conditions. > > James: That's fine. We can end this discussion if you would like. It > has already somewhat reached its logical conclusion. Ph: I'll keep writing on Saturdays, for the time being. If either of us wants to stop, let's stop. Metta, Phil 45473 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 14, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/14/05 2:15:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. ====================== I certainly agree. And if one adds to something like this the fact that formalized (yes, formalized!!) walking medition is a practice that is extant in a variety of Buddhist schools, including Theravada, being practiced, for example, at the NY Buddhist Vihara (Sri Lankan), at Wat Vajiradhamma Padip on Long Island (Thai), and at all the Thai Forest Tradition monasteries and centers, and including Ch'an, for example the Ch'an Center of NY of Sheng-Yen's (Chinese), and Thich Nhat Hanh's various groups (Vietnamese), it seems pretty darn clear to me that walking meditation is basic Dhamma patipatti. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45474 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Andrew, Thanks for your reply message. I am not good at modern thinking. But I will try to discuss your points. You wrote: Dear Htoo I have woken up a little and realised that my (new) question below is not really what I am after. Of course, vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika) etc. Sorry! (-: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vitakka-vicara is just flexible mental factors. In which way are they flexible? They agree with akusala when they arise with akusala citta. And they agree with kusala when they arise with kusala cittas. So you are right to say that 'vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Especially in the West, I understand, we consider humans to be "thinking" beings ("I think, therefore I am" Descartes etc.). As has been noted on DSG before (by Jon and others), a view has arisen in modern Buddhism that thinking is antithetical to sati (mindfulness/awareness). "If only I could stop thinking, I would be more mindful." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand 'stop thinking'. Here 'thinking' has to be defined to speak clearly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Who hasn't been told by a 'meditation master' that the Buddha instructed us to empty our minds of thoughts so that we can be concentrated and make progress? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know this. Or maybe I understand in the other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrrew: So I have been reflecting upon the worldling and the relationship between vitakka-vicara and sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is good. I am one who wants to talk on such matter of vitakka- vicara-sati-panna and the worldling. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: It feels like we have much vitakka-vicara and little sati and this no doubt leads people to consider that there is some sort of inverse relationship between the 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean 'vitakka-vicara <--> 1/sati' or 'sati <--> 1/ vitakka- vicara'? This is not a general rule. Because there are consciousness that are jhaana cittas or jhaana or absorption which does have vitakka-vicara- sati together. Many kusala cittas do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. So the relationship you proposed is generally not proved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: This in turn leads some to exercise effort to avoid thinking so that more sati may arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No, this is not the right way. Because all kusala of worldly origin do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it is false one. If I am wrong please let me know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka- vicara? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No, I do not think so. There are only occasions when there is sati but no 'vitakka-vicara'. These occasions are 3rd rupa jhaana and 4th rupa jhana and all arupa jhana. But all lokuttara cittas do have vitakka-vicara. Without vitakka, no one will attain any magga nana. Vitakka is one part of Noble Eightfold Path. When the Path is broken, magga will not arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: And when more panna arises, more sati arises? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is wrong to say 'more panna' and 'more sati' arise because of 'absence of vitakka-vicara'. But jhana-wise it is said that jhanas are more refined when there is no more vitakka-vicara. It is right. But for seeing nibbana, vitakka is one of the necessary ingredients of Noble Eightfold Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? Many thanks and best wishes Andrew T ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do hope that I communicate with you clearly. If not, please just give me a shout that there still are unresolved matters to discuss. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45475 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (364) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana These 5 jhaana in the names of cittas are 1. viitakka, vicaara, piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam pathamajjhaana ruupakusala citta 2. vicaara, piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam dutiyajjhaana ruupakusala citta 3. piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam tatiyajjhaana ruupakusala citta 4. sukhekaggataa sahitam catutthajjhaana ruupakusala citta 5. upekkhekaggataa sahitam pancamajjhaana ruupakusala citta When these citta arise, there is cetana in each of them and that cetana serves as sahajaata kamma or conaiscent kamma and it becomes ruupa kusala kamma and ready to give rise to ruupavipaka citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45476 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear Jon and Tep, Your dialogue is interesting. I like especially Jon's words on samma- samadhi. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Hi Tep Coming in behind the pack as usual ;-)) Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It takes courage to do that with this lot here ;-)) There is one point in your message that I am in full agreement with, and that is where you explain that at moments of knowing nama and rupa (i.e., of insight) there is also samatha because the mind is concentrated and calm. As you will appreciate, this means that if insight is being developed, so is samma-samadhi, right concentration. I believe this goes part way towards explaining why in the suttas samma-samadhi is often described in terms of the jhanas. By the time insight has been developed to the stage of enlightenment, the accompanying samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana (regardless of whether mundane jhana has previously been developed). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The point that I made above is here. Jon wrote 'samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana'. So it is clear that it is not exactly 'rupavacara rupa jhana'. But it is 'the samadhi which have the strength and nature of jhana'. I used to say on this that 'samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path' is not of rupavacara rupa jhana or not of arupavacara arupa jhana. But one has to emerge from rupa jhana or arupa jhana and then he or she has to see directly on 'NAMA' or 'RUPA' while seeing 'anicca-dukkha- anatta' markers on that nama or rupa. So it is in the vicinity of rupa jhana or arupa jhana. Or it may well be khanika samadhi or it may well be upacara samadhi to work as part of Noblke Eightfold Path as samma-samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with Jon. The Buddha just preached a continuous actions. Aataapi sampajaano satimaa viharati. Aataapi = who is producing effort, one who has diligent effort Sampajaano = sam_well, pa_detail, jananti_know (clear understanding) Satimaa = mindfulness Viharati = abide There is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha. But The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious. This implied inference can be seen in mahasatipatthana sutta that The Buddha preached in 21 sessions. 1. abiding in contemplation of the body 14 sessions 2. abiding in contemplation of feeling 1 session 3. abiding in contemplation of mind 1 session 4. abiding in contemplation of dhamma 5 sessions ------------ 21 sessions Even though The Buddha preached in 21 sessions, these sessions are not separated practices. So it is wrong to assume that there is sitting meditation, walking meditation etc etc. These are just talked to communicate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). Do you think it possible that references to the 4 postures could be intended to mean something like 'at any time regardless of the posture', much like we might say in ordinary speech 'day or night', 'whether awake or sleeping', etc? Appreciating this and your other threads. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If someone assumes that 'such acitvity' is genuine practice he will do so when he is practising in that way. But as soon as out of hour, he will be out of dhamma. The activity itself may or may not be the right one. If one wrongly practise then it will be wrong practice rather than genuine practice. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45477 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: Dear Htoo Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka-vicara? I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your Dhamma knowledge. Best wishes Andrew T -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Andrew, I will show you examples consciousness. 1. wrong view (ditthi) Lobha citta or lobha mula citta (greedy mind, greediness-rooted mind) There are 8 consciousness or 8 cittas that are lobha cittas or lobha mula cittas or greedy mind. Among them 4 cittas do not have wrong-view or ditthi. But this does not mean these 4 cittas have 'right view'. What is right is that these 4 lobha cittas have 'conceit' or 'maana'. Or they arise even without 'conceit' or 'maana' at all. a) happy-minded without-wrong-view unprompted greedy consciousness b) happy-minded without-wrong-view prompted greedy consciousness c) non-happy-non-distressed without-wrong-view unprompted consciousness d) non-happy-non-distressed without-wrong-view prompted consciousness These 4 consciousness do not have wrong-view. But they also do not have right-view or panna. But all these 4 consciousness do have vitakka- vicara. And other 4 consciousness who have wrong-view also have vitakka- vicara. So in wrong-view there is vitakka-vicara. So wrong-view always includes vitakka-vicara. Wrong-view cannot arise without vitakka-vicara. 2. right view (panna) There are 47 consciousness or 47 cittas that have panna. Some have vitakka-vicara and some do not have vitakka-vicara. But here the problem is to define 'right-view'. Right-view in Noble Eightfold Path is panna. But when a view which is not a ditthi and but not the right one it is hard to say that panna is right view. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45478 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (365) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread talk about citta or consciousness. Talk about cetasika or mental factor or mental accompaniment. Talk about ruupa or matter or material. Talk about nibbana. Talk about pannatti. Talk about arammana or object of attention for mind. Jhanas are frequently discussed in Dhamma Thread posts. At least this repeatition will help deeper and deeper understanding on jhanas and this again will help in practical achievement regarding jhanas. Some talk on jhanas while arammana or object of jhanas are not clearly understood. To break this misty area of jhanas, Dhamma Thread frequently talk on jhanas, jhana cittas, and their related matter. Currently Dhamma Thread are discussing on kamma of different kinds. After discussion on akusala kamma, kusala kamma that happen in kaama bhumis or sensuous planes are discussed. In the recent post, rupavacara kamma are discussed. Kamma are actions. Kamma are movements. Kamma are 'changing the existing conditions'. Kamma are sankharas. Kamma are implementation of idea into thoughts with or without accompanying kaaya-vinatti or gesture and or vacii-vinatti or speech or voice. Rupavacara kamma are nothing but they are changing from 'kamavacara cittas to rupavacara cittas'. When one is in jhana, he or she is acting and is changing kamavacara cittas to rupavacara cittas. Rupa kusala are being committed at mano-kamma-dvara and they are never kaaya kamma or vacii kamma. There are 5 rupavacara kamma as there are 5 rupakusala cittas. Again there are 5 rupakusala cittas as there are 5 rupa jhaanas. Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45479 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:14am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon and James - James: > Tep, to help you out with this point made by Jon. > In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk > who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow > monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path > back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason > (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was > doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking > meditation, then the Buddha taught it. T: Thank you much, james for helping me out. I also have my own reply, following this. Jon: > Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in > mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. T: Why is labelling that important? Jon: > There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, > sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking > (or sitting). > T: The mindfulness practice while in any body posture is, of course, known as kayanupassana-satipatthana in MN 10, DN 22. Walking and meditate, as well as sitting and meditate were recommended by the Buddha in some suttas like MN 39: Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states.' -- MN 39 Mahaassapurasuttam. The purifying one's mind of obstructing states while walking is "labelled" as "walking meditation", and "while sitting" is known as "formal meditation" . The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. Buddhaghasa also did it his way. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep (and Jon), > 45480 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, I wrote a reply to you yesterday, and hit the send button, but it seems to have disappeared into nothingness. I'm working over this weekend, and feel too tired to reply again right now. Lets talk later. tc Matheesha 45481 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:50am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and all, Our dialogue continues: You wrote: Dear Htoo, Howard and other interested members - I appreciate your attention to the story of my walking-meditation experience, Htoo. Meditation is not hallucination or a pretending-to- be-important kind of activity: it is something sincere people do, and you know that. Since by its very nature it is one person's personal experience, unless you have similar and more advanced meditation skills you don't know if I am telling a true or a false story. Yet, at the minimum, by sharing our meditation experiences we can learn from each other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) I remember we talked at triplegem about 'snake sees the feet of other snake'_a Myanmar saying. And you talked 'chicken's breast & snake's feet'. Experiencer knows experiencer when they talk in dialogue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and > have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. > Htoo: > As I am on the same activities I do know what you are describing. > What is important is that there is no discontinuity in naana or > wisdom. > If you really reached higher stages, you will have been printed with > a seal called sotapatti magga or above. Otherwise there always is > discontinuity. > There is no particular time that naama and ruupa are clearly > distinguished. So it starts with the first consciousness till the > last consciousness in a day just before slipping into deep sleep. > DSG will say that 'understanding' is important and will deny special > activities. [unsnipped so as to follow the dialogue clearly_Htoo] Tep: It is true that a "clearly distinguished" naama or ruupa may arise anytime, the event is not random. It is not a Roulette game: it depends on a number of deterministic factors such as meticulousness and continuity as said by Sayadaw U Pandita in the book, "In This Very Life". Like Niana said, sati and viriya can be accumulated and these are supportive conditions. The "atapi sampajjano satima" person will achieve samadhi. Tep: Now may I ask you to continue the discussion of gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii' ti pajaanaati to the next two body postures? : Thito vaa 'thitomhii' ti pajaanaati, While he is standing, he knows properly: "I am standing"; nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii' ti pajaanaati, .. while he is sitting, he knows properly: "I am sitting".. [From Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam, Vipassana Research Institute.] It is relatively easy to know properly ( or know in detail, as you put it) while you are walking. But when you are standing or sitting still, it is not easy to have sati and sampajjanna in the body posture for a long time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha preached by session after session and altogether there are 21 sessions. But these are actually not a separate one when the practitioner goes along the day. So in 'iriya patha pabba' or 'contemplating on body position session' there are 4 positions. 1. gacchanto vaa gachaamii'ti pajaanaati 2. thito vaa thitomhii'ti pajaanaati 3. nissinno vaa nissinomhii'ti pajaanaati gacchanto vaa_when going gacchaami_as going, iti_such pajaanaati_know in detail thito vaa_when standing thitomhi_stand, iti_as/such nissino vaa_when sitting nissinomhi_sit, iti_as/such Actually all these are not just indicating to know 'the position'. What The Buddha wanted us to know is that ---> When we are walking we will have to know all the details of our action of walking. There we will not see any 'self' walking. But we will just see ruupa. And if advanced, we will also see naama. So when we are walking we will have to know all the details of our walking like 1. lightness of the foot 2. raising up of the foot 3. swinging of the foot 4. movement of the leg 5. heaviness of the leg 6. landing of the heel 7. swing of the body 8. standing heavily on the heel and so on. As soon as a wish to stand arises, this has to be instantaneously known and then as soon as stand, it is noted that we stand. This is 'when we stand we know that we stand in detail'. thito vaa thitomhii'ti pajaanaati. When a wish to sit arises, this also has to be noted as it arises. There we will know 1. heaviness of the whole body as the gravity draws when we start to sit 2. bending of the knees 3. pressing on the bottom 4. folding of the legs 5. resting of the knees on feet 6. straightening of the body This is 'when we sit we know that we sit'. Nissinno vaa nisinnomhii'ti pajaanaati. Again, say we go to the bed and stand at the bed side and then sit down on the bed and lie down on the bed, there are 4 postures. All actions have to be known in details. Is this possible? This will depend on the practice and perfection. The Buddha did not just stick to any sitting or standing or walking or lying. In between when there arise other thoughts these also have to be noted. It is not right to say standing meditation. When standing there may also arise other thoughts and they will have to be noted accordingly as they arise. Examples are there may arise 'noice' 'voice'. We do not have any control over any of ruupa or naama. When we are meditating we may be walking, may be standing, may be sitting, and may be lying down. But there may also arise 'sounds'. We may or may not hear them. But as soon as hear this means that 'sotavinnana cittas have arisen' and we cannot control them. Just to note 'hear' 'hear' 'hear'. And then move back to the primary object of meditation whatever it is. In short, we just have to know ruupa and naama. Not of any other things. There are some sessions that deal with pannatti. But these again have to do with seeing of nama and ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: The mind will get agitated or become restless, because it is the nature of untrained minds to behave like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as 'the wild mind' is locked, there arises agitation. Because it is the habit of mind to wander around and it will frequently visit where it thinks is its god object of awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: It is a demonstration of the uddhacca hindrance in action. The walking meditation, which also incorporates standing meditation, is a good practice to overcome the hindrances such as uddhacca (agitation) and tina-middha(stiffness and torpor). Once you can rid the mind of all 5 hindrances, you will attain the 1st jhana citta. Am I correct in making such a conclusion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For students, there is no way to attain ruupa jhaana while walking. But for advanced practitioner who has already attained jhana up to 8 jhana and attains abhinna it is possible that he stay in jhana while walking. There are 2 possible alternatives. 1st the walking is the output of abhinna. This means that 'walking manifests as cittaja ruupa or mind-generated gesture of abhinna jhaana. 2nd the walking is done and jhaana is not a stable one but on and off and short-live jhaana only. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45482 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread (366) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them, first and foremost, the first jhaana will be discussed. There are meditations or kammatthanas or kammatthana bhavanaa that can give rise to the first jhaana. Kammatthaana = kamma + tthaana Kamma here means 'bhaavanaa kusala kamma' or 'actions that do the cultivation or breeding or growing of wholesome mind'. And thaana means 'place'. So kammatthaana means 'the place where bhavanaa lives or dwells or depends or resides'. So kammatthaana is not just simple meditation. Meditation may or may not cover all the meanings of kammatthaana. Bhaavana is a form of kusala kamma or wholesome actions that are completely confined to mental actions or mano-kamma or mano-sankhaara. There are 40 kinds of kammatthaana bhavanaa. Among them, 26 kammatthaana can give rise to the first jhaana. To enumerate they are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaana or kasina (wholeness) meditation 2. 10 asubha kammatthaana or meditation on dead bodies 3. 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana or 4 higher-living meditation 4. 1 kaayagataasati kammatthaana or body-parts meditation 5. 1 aanaapaanassati kammatthaana or breathing meditation There are 4 aruppa kammatthaanas or non-material meditation. They can only be developed on the ground of 5th(4th) jhaana. So they are not for 1st jhaana. So there are 30 kammatthana that can give rise to appanaa bhavanaa or jhana but only 26 kammatthaanas can give rise to 1st jhana. What is 1st jhaana? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45483 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing S: But then at the end you say; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, you said 'But then at the end you say;'. What is wrong with my PS:? -------------------------------------------------- --------------------- S: So today I would like to talk about something I once mentioned to you, last year I think, namely, "What a beginner needs to hear". But I think I will go into this later, my children are about to come down and the weekend is usually no time to write mails. Just enough time maybe for a short comment to this part of your post; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Take time and try to control 'the steering wheel'. Otherwise you will be liberated from Sukin-hood. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45484 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:06am Subject: Dhamma Thread (367) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa jhaana or 5 material absorptive states. They are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them 1st jhaana is the ground for all ruupa jhanas. Understanding is very important in jhana matter. When one cannot understand 1st jhana, will it be possible to achieve 1st jhana. What is 1st jhaana? Before talking on 1st jhana, first jhaana needs to be defined. Jhana is 'a mental state' when all mind-components or all mental bodies including citta or mind are totally absorbed into the object of attention and this absorption acts as mental impulsion or javana and there is no interruption between menatl states. 1st jhaana is a jhana that are composed of jhana citta with 5 main jhana factors or jhana-accompaniments along with other mental factors or cetasikas. In 1st jhana there are 35 cetasikas that accompany that 1st jhana citta. But when talking on jhana matter, only jhana-factors cetasikas are talked. There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45485 From: connie Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:37am Subject: ayoniso manasikaaro nichiconn Hi, Phil. sorry i don't remember exactly what you said, but: << The Dispeller of Delusion: 2466. AYONISO MANASIKAARO <373.15> ("unwise bringing to mind") is bringing to mind of what is not the means. ANICCE NICCA.M <373.16> ("concerning the impermanent as permanent"): which occurs concerning an object which is only is only impermanent thus: 'This is permanent.' So also with DUKKHE SUKHA.M ("concerning the painful as pleasant") and so on. 2467. SACCAVIPPA.TIKUULENA VAA <373.18> ("or by what is contrary to truth") by what is not in conformity with the four Truths. CITTASSA AAVA.T.TANAA <373.19. ("advertence of the mind"), etc. are all synonyms for adverting (aavajjanaa); as adverting causes the life-continuum consciousness to advert (aava.t.teti), it is "advertence of the mind". "It continues to cause it to advert" (anu anu aava.t.teti) is ANVAAVA.T.TANAA ("continued advertence"). "It inclines (aabhu~njati), hence it is AABHOGO ("inclination"). "It brings (samannaaharati) from the object of the life-continuum to another object", hence it is SAMANNAAHARAARO ("bringing to bear"). "It makes that the object in the mind as it arises following upon itself", hence it is MANASIKAARO <373.20> ("bringing to mind"); "it makes" means "it places". AYA.M VUCCATI ("this is called"): this bringing to mind which is not the means which has the characteristic of errant bringing to mind is called "unwise bringing to mind". By means of it a person is unable to advert properly to the Truths of suffering, etc. >> I'd think Howard would enjoy reading that kind of stuff. What kind of Disney rides do you think he went on? Jon has never given me the creeps. I could've done without yours and James' bathroom windows, but thanks anyway. Not that it's wrong view, I just didn't need to go there. But that's samphappalaapa. ( A couple other cool desert island book things, just because: << "... the kamma of the followers who assert what is not the Law is greatly reprehensible. " dsp v2 pp175-6. 2394. Herein, true pride is cast out by the path of arahatship; what is not true pride is cast out by the path of Stream Entry. >> peace, connie 45486 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:13am Subject: 1st jhaana in metta samatha bhavanaa & implications htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the practitioner is absorbed into a state of 1st jhana he is said to be developing 1st jhaana. In 1st jhaana which originated from metta brahmavihaara the cittas are all 1st jhaana cittas or rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhaana cittas. All these cittas have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base or they all have to base on hadaya vatthu. Their object is just one. That is any of all these 1st jhaana cittas takes the same object, which is just one. That single object is 'the idea of unlimited beings' and this is pannatti or just names. The way of application of the mind to this object is that by developing loving-kindness wishes. There are cittas or consciousness, arammana or object, vatthu or base or ground. When these cittas arise they are already accompanied by their accompaniment mental factors. These mental factors or mental accompaniments are 55 in number in case of all 1st jhaana cittas. These 55 mental factors are a) 7 universal mental factors 1. contact or phassa (contact of 1st jhana citta with unlimited being) 2. feeling or vedana (somanassa vedana or mental pleasure) 3. volition or cetana (encouragement to take the object unlimited satta) 4. perception or sanna (recognition of unlimited beings) 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata (fixity to unlimited being) 6. mental life or jivitindriya (mental supporter) 7. attention or manasikaara (attention to unlimited beings) b) 6 particular mental factors 1. initial application or vitakka (application of the mind to unlimited beings) 2. sustained application or vicaara( sustension of the mind to unlimited beings) 3. effort or viriya (energy to exert mentally to unlimited being) 4. joy or piiti (suffused joy to all other mental factors and citta) 5. zeal or wish or chanda (enthusiasm to take unlimited beings) 6. decision or adhimokkha (clear decision to take unlimited beings as an object) c) 19 general beautiful mental factors 1. confidence or sadda 1. confidence or sadda 2. mindfulness or sati 2. balancer or tatramajjhattata 3. shame or hiri 3. non-attachment or alobha 4. fear or ottappa 4. non-aversion or adosa 5. mind-tranquility 5. mental-tranquility or citta-passaddhi or kaayapassaddhi 6. mind-lightness 6. mental-lightness or citta-lahutaa or kaaya-lahutaa 7. mind-mouldability 7. mental-mouldability or citta-mudutaa or kaaya-mudutaa 8. mind-workability 8. mental-workability or citta-kammannataa or kaaya-kammannataa 9. mind-proficiency 9. mental-proficiency or citta-pagunnataa or kaaya-pagunnataa 10.mind-uprightness 10.mental-uprightness or cittaujukataa or kaayujukataa d) special beautiful mental factor 1. pannindria cetasika or panna cetasika So there are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3.19 general beautiful mental factors 4. 1 special beautiful mental factors --- 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas Karuna and mudita do not arise with metta jhaana. 3 virati cetasikas do not arise with metta jhaana. So in 1st jhaana of metta-brahmavihaara or loving- kindness-pure-living there are 1. 1st jhana citta ( rupaavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana cittas) 2. 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas 3. 1 hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu 4. 0 pannatti ( this is illusionary object and designated as 0) The pannatti here is 'the idea of beings of unlimited characterization (deared, hated, non-deared-non-hated) and unlimited number of 1 to infinity) This is the picture of 1st jhaana with metta brahmavihaara. Among 33 cetasikas or 33 mental factors there are 5 special cetasikas and they are designated as jhaana factors as they help to develop 1st jhaana. They are vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained- application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistressedness or pleasure', and ekaggataa or one-pointedness or 'fixity to object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45487 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:27am Subject: Pure-Living Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be achieved by metta. It can also be atained through the practice of unlimited compassion or karuna brahmavihaara. It is karuna kammatthaana. The implications are almost the same as in case of metta brahmavihaara but the difference is that 'the mental exertion is applied with the idea of wishing easing of beings. When we say 'easing' there always are 'uneasing load on beings'. So karuna generally goes to all those who are in needs of help in certain form. Usually beings of attention in karuna kammatthaana are 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble'. This is the difference between karuna and mudita. When karuna goes to 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble', muditaa goes to 'sukhita sattas' or 'beings in prosperity'. That is why karuna and mudita cannot arise together because the objects are totally different that is one is 'in trouble' while another is 'in prosperity'. Unlike karuna and mudita, metta can go to both kinds of beings. That is both beings in trouble and beings in prosperity. By the same token, upekkha-brahmavihaara can also go to both kinds of beings. Actually metta and upekkha can go to any kind of beings whether they are in trouble or not, whether they are in prosperity or not and whatever they are beheaving. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45488 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (368) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa jhaana or 5 material absorptive states. They are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them 1st jhaana is the ground for all ruupa jhanas. There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Actually each of these 5 jhana factors has been explained in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. The above 5 jhana factors are not just simple cetasikas. They are jhana factors. So vitakka has to be jhana-vitakka and not of other vitakkas. Vitakka is normally translated as 'thinking' or 'initial thinking' or 'initial thought'. There are many other vitakkas apart from jhana- vitakka. Vitakka is 'application of the mind to a specific object'. While the mind (citta) is applied to a specific object, vitakka also applies itself to that object and other accompanying cetasikas are all applied to that specific very object. This is the job of vitakka. Vitakka is 'initial application'. 'Initial' is added to differentiate vitakka from vicara, another cetasika which also applies the mind to the specific object. But the way 'vicaara' applies to the object and the way 'vitakka applies to the object' are not the same. If they are the same, there cannot be 2 applications as cetasikas. Vicaara has the meaning of 'sustained'. Vicaara means 'review' 'repeated visit to the same object' or something like that. Vicaara always follows or accompanies vitakka. That is when there is vitakka there always is vicaara. But when there is vicaara they may or may not be vitakka. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45489 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi All, In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks in advance. - Kel http://www.metta.lk/english/anguttara-select4.doc 124. Mahamogallana Dozing [Sattaka Nipâtha (Avyâkata Vagga) Pacâlayamâno] At one time the Blessed One was living in the Bhagga country in the Bhesakalâ forest among the Sunsumâra rocks. Venerable Mahâmoggallâna was living in the Kallawâlamutta village in the Magadha country. Then the Blessed One with his purified heavenly eye saw venerable Mahâmoggallâana dozing in a seated position and just as a strong man would stretch his bent arm or bend his stretched arm he disappeared from the dear park in the Bhesakalâ forest and appeared before venerable Mahâmoggallâna in Magadha. The Blessed One sat on the seat prepared, and asked "Moggallâna, were you dozing?" "Yes, venerable sir." Then Moggallâna, in whatever perception you were abiding when you were overcome by that drowsiness , should not be attended to, it should be abandoned, then there is a possibility, for that drowsiness to vanish. If that drowsiness does not vanish when so doing, you should call to mind and discursively think about the Teaching, then too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish. If then too that drowsines does not vanish you should recite the Teaching as heard and mastered by you. If then too the drowsiness does not vanish, you should pull both ear lobes and stroke the body with both hands. Then too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish. If then too the drowsiness does not vanish, you should rise from your seat wash your eyes, look in the directions, look at the constellation. Thus too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish If yet the drowsiness is there, you should attend to the perception of light, intend the perception of day, as the day so the night. Thus the mind should be uncovered and unenveloped. There is a possibility when doing so too for that drowsiness to vanish. If it does not vanish then too, you should intend a walk perceiving the beginning and the end, with the mind turned inwards and the mental faculties well controlled. If that too does not help you should lie down turning to your right placing one foot over the other to make the lion's posture(1) attending to the perception of rising mindful and aware. When awake should hurriedly get up, thinking I will not get yoked to the pleasure of sleep. O! Moggallâna, you should train thus too. I will not approach families with a puffed up self . In families there are cerimonial obligations, at such times people do not attend to bhikkhus. Then it occurs to the bhikkhu, who has split me and this family, now these people are angry with me. Then the bhikkhu is discontented.The discontented are restless, the restless are not controlled. The uncontrolled are far from concentration.(3) O! Moggallâna, I do not appreciate all association nor do I depreciate all association. The association of householders and bhikkhus, I do not appreciate. I appreciate the association of dwellings with less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans." When this was said, venerable Mahâmoggallâna said, "Venerable sir, how is the bhikkhu finnally established, come to the end of the yoke, end of the holy life and the final end, released by the destruction of craving becomes the chief among gods and men.? Here Moggallâna, the bhikkhu hears that all things are not suitable to cling to, with that intention he learns all things accurately, whatever feelings he feels, pleasant, unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant, abides reflecting impermanence, dispassion and cessation in them. He gives them up, does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, not worried, is by himself extinguished. Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, come to the final end is released by the destruction of craving and becomes the chief among gods and men" ********* 129. Ven Nanda's success in the Holy Life [Atthaka Nipâtha (Mettâ Vagga) Nanda] "O! bhikkhus, saying it rightly Nanda is a powerful, very pleasing, and a passionate clansman. His success in the holy life was on account of the controlled mental faculties, knowing the right amount to partake of food, being yoked to wakefulness, and the endowment of mindful awareness. Bhikkhus, this is Nanda's control of the mental faculties. If he wanted to look in any of the directions, he would recall everything to mind and would consider, will covetousness, displeasure and demeritorious things stream into my mind, if I look in this direction, and then he would look in that direction. Bhikkhus, this was Nanda's knowing the right amount to partake of food. Nanda would partake of food reflecting, it is not for play, not for intoxication, not for attraction and beauty, to support this body, devoid of passion for tastes as a help for the holy life. By this I will destroy the earlier feelings and not give rise to new feelings, so that it would be faultless for my pleasant abiding . Bhikkhus, Nanda was yoked to wakefulness thus, during the day Nanda cleans the mind of obstructing things when walking and sitting. In the first watch of the night too he cleans the mind of obstructing things when walking and sitting. During the middle watch of the night, he lies down turning to his right keeping one foot over the other to make the lion's posture mindful and aware of the perception of rising. In the last watch of the night he gets up and cleans the mind of obstructing things when standing and sitting. Bhikkhus, this was Nanda's mindful awareness. To Nanda knowing feelings arise, persist and fade. Knowing perceptions arise, persist and fade. Knowing thoughts arise, persist and fade. O! bhikkhus, it was on account of Nanda's control of the mental faculties, knowing the right amount to eat, being yoked to wakefulness and being endowed with mindful awareness, that it was possible to succeed in the holy life. 45490 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: Time for my weekly installment James: ;-)) Nice to see it! Phil: So perhaps when we are aware of restlessness or doubt we are a little closer to an opportunity to understand this moha.. perhaps. James: Here I see a little uncertainty about what you need to be aware of; don't feel bad, I am in the same boat. The defilements are so tricky and take so many forms that it is difficult to determine the best way to be aware of them. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is an individual thing. In this post, I want to quote some from K. Sujin to raise some points. K. Sujin has said, "For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know." http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html I agree with this, but I am left uncertain as to how someone is to know "what kusala is". How is this to be done? Surely, memorizing the terms of the Abhidhamma isn't going to do it. There must be something more. What do you think K. Sujin means here? Phil: As for proliferation, I'm not clear about whether proliferation means extensive mental formation, or whether even when there is just a failure to see realites there is therfore proliferation. Sorry - I'm sleepy and not writing clearly. James: I think you are writing very clearly. This is the question I raised before and you said that concepts weren't the problem, just proliferation was the problem. This corresponds to what the Buddha taught. If you are changing your position, let me know. Really, I am trying to figure out what K. Sujin really teaches and what people seem to think she teaches. If she wrote more, rather than just spoke, people could be clearer on her positions. After all, this is not a world of careful listeners. Phil: Don't you do this sort of thing as well? doesn't everyone? James: Yeah, I suffer from mental proliferation as well, of course. I just found yours to be very dynamic and reminiscent of the stream-of-consciousness writers of the beat generation, like Alan Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac. My mental proliferations are not quite so dynamic. Phil: I may meditate again some day, if conditions bring it around. James: Well, this is what K. Sujin had to say about meditation, "Thus, when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of access-concentration [6. This is the development of tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject [7." So, according to K. Sujin, meditation is the steadfastness of kusala. I would agree with that. What's wrong with practicing that? Phil: If a meditation teacher appears in my life, and I come to live in a way removed from a great onslaught of sense objects, it could happen. Doesn't look likely. For now, I don't feel I can satisfy the condition the Buddha lays down at the beginning of the satipatthana sutta - "having set aside covetnousness and grief for the world" - until we have done that, as Bhikkhu Bodhi says, it will not be fruitful meditation. I personally feel that people cannot live in the sensation drenched modern world and claim to "set aside coventousness and grief for the world." But if that comes to be, semehow, I may meditate again. James: This is a momentary setting aside of covetousness and grief for the world, it doesn't have to be ongoing. Only an arahant has completely and permanently set aside covetousness and grief for the world. The point is to not meditate and still have your mind into worldly matters, that isn't meditation. One must withdraw from thoughts of the world to meditate properly. Surely you can do this? Sometimes? Phil: Meditating for pleasant feeling, or so it seems to me. It was reading those talks by TB ("40 meditatins?")that made me start to wonder why on earth I was meditatitng, and that was before I came to DSG. But I am not closing my mind to the possibility of meditating again. James: It is good that you haven't closed your mind to the possibility of meditation practice again. Phil, there are all sorts of meditation teachers who are teaching the wrong methods. They are teaching what people want to hear: a way to feel good fast. Even at my Buddhist temple, where I helped to lead meditation retreats, there was a special guest monk from Thailand who was supposed to be an excellent meditation teacher because he was very `famous'. Some temple disciples came to meet this monk and he led us all in a Chakra Meditation! I was very appalled. Then he actually started walking around us, sitting on the floor, and waving his hands around our bodies to `give us energy and take away pain'. I just couldn't believe it! I refused to participate in any meditation retreats that he led and I wasn't quiet as to why. I told everyone who would listen that he was not teaching proper meditation as taught by the Buddha. The vice-abbot, a very nice and wise monk, said to me jokingly, "What's the matter? Didn't you get the energy? He's like a battery; he will give you energy!" LOL! Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional use of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of extending mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone else." Now, if the Brahma-Viharas are good enough for K. Sujin, why aren't they good enough for you? Phil: I'll keep writing on Saturdays, for the time being. If either of us wants to stop, let's stop. James: No, I don't want to stop now. I am looking forward to your response. Metta, James 45491 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using > brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan > to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. > > James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional use > of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of extending > mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa > to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his > happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his > citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone > else." Now, if the Brahma-Viharas are good enough for K. Sujin, why > aren't they good enough for you? Hello James, all, One of the first long threads I was involved in when I joined dsg some years ago concerned Metta - it was explained to me, by senior members of this list, that it could not be radiated to oneself. This left me with feeling, after long and torturous discussion, that metta was just a quality in a person conditioning them to act with goodwill, and in a friendly way, towards all beings in the world - but was not ever to be directed towards oneself. I also gained the impression, contrary to general usage, that it was not a 'psychic' force of any sort, and one couldn't, for example, 'send' metta to someone in sickness or trouble to help them feel better or change their conditions. I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... metta and peace, Chris 45492 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions buddhistmedi... Hi Kel (and other interested DSG members) - Without making my message too long, I'd like to answer your question by considering only the second sutta (Ven. Nada's Holy-life practice). In order to get the most benefit from a sutta like this, one should read it with a strong saddha and with the following questions in mind: 1) How did Ven. Nada follow Lord Buddha's Teachings to become such a great monk in his life? 2) Are there some useful guidelines I can adopt in my own practice? With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at selected times of the night, and so on). With such appropriate saddha and an unconfused mind imbued with deep respect for the Buddha, the suttas and the ariya savaka's holy life, the reader will see the right way to practice (patipada) for success in the Dhamma (with the Holy-life in mind) without any question. [The full instruction may be found also in MN39, Mahaassapura Sutta and MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta.] Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another question. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi All, > > In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how > we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as > they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks > in advance. > > - Kel > 45493 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi James, Christine, and all > > Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using > > brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in > Japan > > to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. > > > > James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional > use > > of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of > extending > > mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend > mettaa > > to others; Ph: Metta is powerful, definitely. When someone's citta *is* metta, it is powerful. And the Buddha taught it - we know that from the metta sutta. But for me it's very obvious that metta doesn't arise because we want it to. I used to sit and think about metta and believe that it was metta. It was just more of that self-pleasuring I mentionned before! The metta sutta is another sutta that is describing a person whose citta stream is in a very refined condition. It's a very different thing when modern-world folk sit down when they are feeling agitated and think they are generating metta, in my opinion.I guess the same thing goes for intentionally experiencing sati, though I'm not quite as sure as that. Once we've experienced the way metta wells up at unexpected moments, and have appreciated how beautiful and selfless it is, how can we believe that we can sit down and generate it? That's what I don't get. I can't imagine Kh Sujin believes in generating metta when it isn't there, but I don't know what she thinks about the conditioning power of metta when it *is* there. I want to read her online book but I haven't been able to find it when I google it. I always get the "Metta" salutation that opens Deeds of Merit. Could someone link me to it, please? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s for want of a better sign-off, I keep writing "metta" - and sometimes there is metta when I write it. 45494 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions matheesha333 Hi Kel, I wonder which bits of these suttas cause the confusion? I can note a few places but it would be helpful if you could tell us. Also note that these intstructions are for monks. Like Tep mentioned we should be careful of how we can adopt these practices without making things too difficult for ourselves -and subsequently getting tired of the practice and giving it up all together. That would be unskilful. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Kel (and other interested DSG members) - > > Without making my message too long, I'd like to answer your question > by considering only the second sutta (Ven. Nada's Holy-life practice). > > In order to get the most benefit from a sutta like this, one should read it > with a strong saddha and with the following questions in mind: > > 1) How did Ven. Nada follow Lord Buddha's Teachings to become > such a great monk in his life? > 2) Are there some useful guidelines I can adopt in my own practice? > > With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding > fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental > faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused > about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to > take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at > selected times of the night, and so on). With such appropriate saddha > and an unconfused mind imbued with deep respect for the Buddha, the > suttas and the ariya savaka's holy life, the reader will see the right way > to practice (patipada) for success in the Dhamma (with the Holy- life in > mind) without any question. [The full instruction may be found also in > MN39, Mahaassapura Sutta and MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta.] > > Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another > question. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how > > we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as > > they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks > > in advance. > > > > - Kel > > 45495 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, > With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding > fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental > faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused > about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to > take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at > selected times of the night, and so on). I didn't really have a problem with the translation, it is mostly as I understand the way to practice. I also noticed the particular positions through different phases of the night in reference to your other threads. So I also wonder how this plays in with "conditions" arguments. > Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another > question. I've always thought the path is simple enough, application of it is the hard part. - kel 45496 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 5:49pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi Matheesha, > I wonder which bits of these suttas cause the confusion? I can note > a few places but it would be helpful if you could tell us. The way I read the first sutta, Buddha basically gave a list of things to try in order to overcome thina-middha. With successively more effort and seemingly unnatural things like "pulling both ear lobes". Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and nothing wrong with falling asleep? Getting up to walk to shake sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? Also being choosy about a particular place of practice, "dwellings with less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans". But maybe instructions are for samatha only? > making things too difficult for ourselves -and subsequently getting > tired of the practice and giving it up all together. That would be > unskilful. Easy mistake for unskilled people to make I guess. - kel 45497 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: ----------- > The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. Buddhaghasa also did it his way. ----------- I agree that meditation teachers have added what you call details. However, Buddhaghosa should not be seen as a teacher of formal meditation. Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. There was never any intention that we should concentrate on walking in order to know rupa. Ken H 45498 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:55pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hello James and Howard, -------------------- James: > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). ---------------------- KH: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind monk needs to get up and walk about. ---------------------------- James: > > One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. ----------------------------- KH: While he was walking, he was practising right mindfulness (bhavana, meditation), just as he did while in any of the other three postures. And it didn't matter what activity he was performing while in those postures: he practised satipatthana while eating, talking, answering calls of nature - anything (except sleeping). ----------------------------------------------------- James: > If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: The Buddha taught a practice that can be performed at any time, in any posture and during any activity. That doesn't mean he taught walking - any more than it means he taught eating, talking or answering the calls of nature. --------------------------- Howard: > I certainly agree. And if one adds to something like this the fact that formalized (yes, formalized!!) walking medition is a practice that is extant in a variety of Buddhist schools, including Theravada, being practiced, for example, at the NY Buddhist Vihara (Sri Lankan), at Wat Vajiradhamma Padip on Long Island (Thai), and at all the Thai Forest Tradition monasteries and centers, and including Ch'an, for example the Ch'an Center of NY of Sheng-Yen's (Chinese), and Thich Nhat Hanh's various groups (Vietnamese), it seems pretty darn clear to me that walking meditation is basic Dhamma patipatti. ----------------------------- KH: There are millions of monks and laypeople who practise many things that the Buddha never taught and who swear that he did teach them. Fortunately, we still have the ancient records that show what he did teach. In some cases, they even say what he didn't teach - e.g., he didn't teach "walking" in the conventional sense of the word. Ken H 45499 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:33pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] christine_fo... Hello KenH, I've been enjoying your posts lately - hoping all the activity on-list means you have blunted your dhamma sword :-) Looking forward to seeing you, Andrew T, and Steve this weekend. Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hello James and Howard, > > -------------------- > James: > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk > walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for > a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). > ---------------------- > > KH: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind > monk needs to get up and walk about. > > 45500 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No, this is not the right way. Because all kusala of worldly > origin do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: I think it is false one. If I am wrong please let me know. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it > valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka- > vicara? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No, I do not think so. There are only occasions when there is > sati but no 'vitakka-vicara'. These occasions are 3rd rupa jhaana and > 4th rupa jhana and all arupa jhana. But all lokuttara cittas do have > vitakka-vicara. Without vitakka, no one will attain any magga nana. > > Vitakka is one part of Noble Eightfold Path. When the Path is broken, > magga will not arise. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > And when more panna arises, more sati arises? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > It is wrong to say 'more panna' and 'more sati' arise because > of 'absence of vitakka-vicara'. But jhana-wise it is said that jhanas > are more refined when there is no more vitakka-vicara. It is right. > But for seeing nibbana, vitakka is one of the necessary ingredients > of Noble Eightfold Path. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better > than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? > > Many thanks and best wishes > > Andrew T > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > I do hope that I communicate with you clearly. If not, please just > give me a shout that there still are unresolved matters to discuss. Dear Htoo Thank you for your answers. Yes, you have provided me with the information I was seeking. Many thanks Best wishes Andrew T 45501 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Ken H, Ken H: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind monk needs to get up and walk about. James: LOL! I don't think you are considering this very carefully. It would be dangerous for a blind monk to go walking around a forest, unattended, `for exercise'. He was obviously unattended because he was stepping on insects which bothered other monks. The blind monk would have gotten plenty of exercise by going on alms rounds everyday, traveling, etc.- more exercise probably than we usually get in our modern world. Additionally, he would have only had one meal a day to eat, so it is unlikely he was on an `exercise routine'. Most importantly, the texts state that he was doing `walking meditation'. Now, if you can go back to the original Pali and find that the texts state he was exercising or just walking around, then I will believe you; otherwise, it is pretty obvious to me that you are grasping at straws. Ken H: While he was walking, he was practising right mindfulness (bhavana, meditation), just as he did while in any of the other three postures. James: Yeah, that's walking meditation. You can be thinking of other things while walking or you can be mindful of the walking. If you are mindful of the walking, then you aren't walking to go anywhere- because in that case you are thinking of your destination (and many other things along the way). Ken H: The Buddha taught a practice that can be performed at any time, in any posture and during any activity. That doesn't mean he taught walking - any more than it means he taught eating, talking or answering the calls of nature. James: I didn't say that the Buddha taught walking! ;-)) I said that he obviously taught walking meditation. It's in the ancient texts. Metta, James 45502 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Thanks again Philip, What does "sila" and "dana" mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 01 May, 2005 16:24 Subject: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part Hi Charles > You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the > 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? Let me write down a few things from Nina's "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which is available at abhidhamma.org No, come to think of it, I will try it as a closed-book test to see what I have retained from reading and rereading it last year. I can't remember if there is a proper order they should be in, but the perfections (paramis) are sila, dana, wisdom, renunciation, determination, metta, truthfulness, energy, patience and equanimity. <....> 45503 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Phil, Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Some miserable people need desperately to be fooled for hour (of meditation) into thinking that they are happy and can remain happy if they give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done. And they may need to be fooled, for periods, into believing that they can, both give up and do ... Philip, can you explain the following a little more: "Another one of my hunches tells me that when people place emphasis on developing sati intentionally, by formally meditating, believing that it increases the likelihood of sati increasing, they thereby come to believe that in daily life there is less likelihood of sati increasing, and could neglect the duty they have to examine all experience and come to understand it. (Conditions permitting.)" I think you are making a good warning but I am not clear about what you are saying. Now the following is clear: "I still suspect that there are forms of meditation that in the wrong hands lead to people feeling temporary relief from suffering, but lead to deepening their roots in samsara, because there is this belief that kusala cittas can be generated intentionally..." However, I am not sure what you mean by "kusala cittas". What you seem not to accept is the fact that one must begin ... and that requires intent. However, you can argue that it requires the right intent. To have no-intent is the same as saying have no aim in life, this is not for beginning Buddhists. There must be intent and there must be "I"; a health ego is essential for enlightenment to be achieved. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 11 May, 2005 06:43 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > I can understand your concerns; however, I remember Noble referring to some one that is moral and ethical. A person was considered Noble because he/she was good natured, liked, and respected for it. So yes, a Noble person had a certain degree of enlightenment, morality, one of the three pillars of the eight-fold- path (the other two being wisdom and concentration). Ph: Well, I'm not sure about this. There are suttas that distinguish between "worldlings" (albeit "uninstructed" ones) and "noble disciples" (albeit "instructed" ones.) <....> 45504 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, (*James & Tep), --- Philip wrote: > > I can't imagine Kh Sujin believes in generating metta when it > isn't there, but I don't know what she thinks about the conditioning > power of metta when it *is* there. I want to read her online book > but I haven't been able to find it when I google it. .... S: It's a wonderful book. Just found the first part of the first chapter on line here.* http://www.zolag.co.uk/mettac.html .... S: Here's how it starts -- you may like to post the rest in installments for discussion. >Chapter 1 (Extract) Conditions and impediments Metta, loving kindness, can be cultivated when we know its characteristic. When there is true metta other people are considered as friends: there is a feeling of closeness and sympathy, we have tender care for them and we want to do everything for their benefit and happiness. At such moments the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, mana, which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing ones own importance and for disparaging others. If there is the earnest wish to develop metta, we want to eliminate akusala dhammas, also those which we usually do not notice. We do not realize the extent of our conceit, jealousy, stinginess, aversion and other defilements. When we develop metta we will begin to notice many kinds of defilements, and as metta is accumulated more there will be less opportunity for the arising of unwholesomeness. Conceit is a defilement which is an impediment to metta. When there is metta we think of the wellbeing of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important.< ***** S: Metta - friendly, considerate and care for others -- no matter whom we meet in a day. When we are concerned with ourselves, our importance or lack of importance, what others think about us, how others treat us or don't treat us, no metta at such times. Of course metta may have an effect on others -- everyone (well most people) appreciates kindness, gentleness, friendliness and courtesy. But no one can control the effect or otherwise of kusala on others -- we all have our own kamma and accumulations which will depend on various conditions at the time. One person may appreciate the kindness while another my be disturbed by it or not notice ....it doesn't matter at all. Kusala is kusala and expectations about effects on others are likely to be akusala:-). Unlike other states, such as karuna or mudita for example, there are opportunities for metta whenever people are the object of citta -- whenever we're on the bus, at the supermarket, walking along the road, at work, talking together and so on, just as you describe so well -- opportunities for metta to develop naturally and easily without an idea of 'me' having more metta. Metta, Sarah *I thought I had seen the whole book on line, but also can't find it now. RobK, do you have a link or pdf file that could be put in DSG files if it's not on a website perhaps? btw, James & all, any of K.Sujin's writings are based on her earlier lectures which have been compiled and translated by Nina mostly into books/booklets. Some of Nina's own writings are also based on these Thai lectures. Tep, if you'd like any of the Thai mp3s, let Sukin or myself know off-list. ======= 45505 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:32am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 194 - Enthusiasm/piiti (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Not only mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, which are accompanied by somanassa arise with píti, but also the mahå-vipåkacittas and the mahå-kiriyacittas which are accompanied by somanassa arise with píti. As regards mahå-vipåkacittas, these are produced by kamma, and thus it depends on the kamma which produces the mahå-vipåkacitta whether it is accompanied by somanassa and píti or not. Among those who are reborn with mahå-vipåkacitta, some are born with somanassa and píti, others with upekkhå and in that case there is no píti. If one is born with somanassa and píti, all bhavanga-cittas of that life and also the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are accompanied by somanassa and píti as well(1). *** 1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 11. If the function of paìisandhi is performed by an ahetuka vipåkacitta (santíraùa-citta accompanied by upekkhå which can be kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka), píti does not accompany the citta. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45506 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Good to hear from you as usual, Andrew. No need to ever be concerned about dropping out of threads, starting and then leaving them or anything else like that. Also, I really appreciated the kind messages that Tep, James, KenH and Howard wrote to you. You have good friends here, concerned for your welfare and glad if you’ll stay around to share your reflections and practice with us. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) ... S: Ok,this time I’m going to ask you questions then :) > Eh, but see I've seen so much results from sitting meditation > throughout the past few years that I can't think just trying to see > the three characteristics in dhammas is what it's all about. ... S: Have I suggested this? Who is trying? .... >Perhaps > it is a large part of it because I think of times I have been able to > see the impermanence of all things when I was doing very well with > formal vipassana meditation, ... S: Again, who sees the impermanence? What are ‘all things’? ... > and their true nature, expanding, > changing, does appear to me when I practise like this or do walking > meditation. ... S: What do you mean by ‘does appear to me?’ .... > > I just think there is a fundamental discord between the approaches we > are taking. I mean, I want to practise the Noble Eightfold Path. Or > at least the four foundations of mindfulness. These are cultivated > quite intentionally, .... S:When there is ‘wanting’ to practice or intentions to cultivate mindfulness (intentionally), is it kusala or akusala? .... >and I see this as a fundamental conflict with > most of the views espoused here; in fact, it's not the only one. > This is why after an initial post that I get 'good results' from, I > usually trail off with the thread.. it's not going in the direction > of helping me in my practise, with some exceptions, like working > towards understanding ultimate realities. I have to try to get back > in touch with my practise, it seems participating heavily here > hampers that. .... S: Might this be because ideas of ‘my practise’ are in conflict with the understanding of ultimate realities which we read about in the texts? ..... > Sarah, I have to go. I do think that there is some good discussion > here that can help me understand some basic concepts in Buddhism, but > I haven't been able to let it work with my daily life or practise. ... S: Again, is this because of clinging to any idea of ‘my’ daily life and ‘my’ practice, do you think? ..... > One last thing. I think you give me far too much credit for my > reflection and 'understanding.' And this is where I stray with > threads. Perhaps some better effort is called for. ... S: And who makes this effort? .... > At the very least, I will lurk in this group rather than starting > threads I would abandon and so on. > > Sorry for the late reply, as always. ... S: No need to be concerned at all on either count. [more qus to come:)) Metta, Sarah ======= 45507 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Might I also add sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L (Tep, James, Ken H & Howard), --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the > Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, > which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not > reflect at all. ... S: Do you think you’d be here discussing dhamma if there was no reflection at all? Do you see study and reflection and commitment to the Dhamma as being measurable by book study or by the development of understanding of dhammas in daily life, including when one isn’t well or is in a bad state of mind? ... >I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, > and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental > perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. ... S: What do you mean by ‘getting a grip?’. Who gets a grip? Isn’t such interest conditioned too? ... >So I like to keep it > simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble > Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well > under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of > myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. .... S: Who is it that is so concerned and about whom is this person so concerned? .... >In fact, > a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in > the states of deprivation. ... S: Again, fear for whom? ... >Certainly, a balanced perspective on this > would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do > think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying > because I think it will lead to bad things. .... S: Bad things for whom again? .... > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with > the people in this group. My whole world has revolved around sitting > meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived > with it. It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of > high acheivement, as I and even some popular artists in the media I > know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. .... S: Please explain. .... >Not > being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, > sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, > and definitely made things seem more 'real.' ... S: In the end, what is it really, which reality is it, that helps see ultimate realities, i.e namas and rupas more clearly? Can it be sitting cross-legged? Closing one’s eyes? Concentrating on breath? .... >That is, when it's going > for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). ... S: Again, who keeps at it or who does it go for? ... >I've had > results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was > profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon > here or there. ... S: is there a wish to have profound rather than every day experiences? Why? ... > I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be > good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try > to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, > much less apply them to real, or daily life. .... S: Have I suggested taking a studious approach and then applying it? ..... >Much less trying to keep > the necessary balance between the two (study, practise, daily life [, > realization]). As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still > seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate > or get something consistent going. Add in that I am not dead serious > about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right > there. Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that > play on me to stay going in a bad way, but even with my illness I want > to try to put together some kind of understanding or plan of how I can > follow the teachings to their end. .... S: Andrew, you don’t need to answer any of the questions. I’m just trying to help you consider more about how all our problems revolve around a deep clinging to oneself. We forget all the time about conditioned dhammas. In the end, whether dhammas are consistent or not, whether you meditate for a short or a long time, whether one’s course is changed or not, whether there are kilesa or bad things arising or not doesn’t matter. What really matters is the development of understanding with detachment from all the present dhammas at such times which have to be the way they are. Like the ingredients in the soup result in a particular taste, so the ingredients which lead to the arising of present dhammas cannot lead to any others. The deep clinging to self and the futile efforts to change present dhammas lead to so many problems. .... > > I continue to see things here that seem useful, but that I only > vaguely recall when applicable. I guess I do not 'harvest' > understanding well, having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from > mastering it. ... S: This is true for us all. It’s ok too....like the adze handle, gradually the understanding will grow and the defilements will be worn away, but not by wishing and expectations and trying to make it happen. ... > > I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position > on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll > surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) ... S: I’m trying to meet the deadline – I hope you will respond to the other kind and metta-filled advice that the others gave you. I’ll look forward to any further comments or reflections you have...but no pressure intended:) Metta, Sarah ======== 45508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James (and Tep) Hope you don't mind if I butt in ('creep' in?) here. buddhatrue wrote: >James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk >who was doing walking meditation in the forest and >he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow >monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said >that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was >walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. > >I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path >back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason >(and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was >doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking >meditation, then the Buddha taught it. > > Did the Buddha teach 'walking meditation'? As Tep suggests, let's not get hung up on a name or label. I think we can all agree that if he did it was as part of the development of samatha (tranquillity) or the development of vipassana (insight). Samatha and vipassana are forms of kusala that occur through the mind-door (only), that is to say, that do not include any element of action through speech or body. For example, if there is metta now, or reflection on a point of dhamma, and it is accompanied by panna that knows the kusala (tranquil) quality of the moment, that is samatha bhavana. If there occurs spontaneously a level of attention to the presently arising visible object or sound, or attachment or aversion, or any other dhamma, so that there is the direct experience of that dhamma, that is mundane insight. In the case of samatha, high levels of attainment (such as jhana and the approach to jhana) are typically (but not necessarily) associated with a certain austere lifestyle and a seated posture alternated with periods of walking on a suitable walkway, and there are plenty of references in the suttas to this kind of activity. When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. I think the primary condition for the development of a given form of kusala is one's previously accumulated tendencies for that form of kusala. Now I think all of us here must have developed both samatha and vipassana in previous existences, otherwise we would not have the strong interest in the teachings that we do, so with the right supporting conditions in this lifetime, and these include of course moral encouragement and a sound theoretical understanding, there can be moments of tranquillity and insight development, even though we are not at the same advanced level as those who lived at the time of the Buddha. As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. Jon 45509 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo >Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. >But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not >stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them >they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. > > I like the way you put this. Much of what we take for 'mindfulness' is just thinking about dhammas or their characteristics. We don't actually *see* things as they truly are. Thanks for the reminder. >PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. >But I do not know when will that be. > > Sounds like the only way we're going to get you into the 'Photos' file is to take a picture of you ourselves. OK, we'll be ready when the time comes (but you'll have to check to make sure we'll be in Hong Kong). Jon 45510 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions matheesha333 Hi Kel, K:> The way I read the first sutta, Buddha basically gave a list of > things to try in order to overcome thina-middha. With successively > more effort and seemingly unnatural things like "pulling both ear > lobes". Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and > nothing wrong with falling asleep? Getting up to walk to shake > sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? Also > being choosy about a particular place of practice, "dwellings with > less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans". But maybe > instructions are for samatha only? M: My take on things would be more line with traditional meditational practices. So please note that this is an alternate way of looking at this. In many places in the suttas we can find this type of instruction. Effort and determination have been praised, and this is actually 'putting in the hours'. This could be for samatha or vipassana. While this would contain a sense of self, there is no indication in the suttas that the buddha in his Gradual training urged his disciples to start noting self/not self early on in the practice. In fact it is more practices like sense restraint, being moderate in food, keeping precepts, removing hindrences etc. This was to prepare the mind so that it was possible to 'put aside greed & distress with reference to the world' and prepare him for the life and practice of a monk and sathipatthana practice. The idea that there is no point trying to influnce the dhammas seem somewhat questionable, after all even momentary mindfulness requires at least a minor degree of tinkering on our part in the stream of thought. To have no influence would be to not have any kind of practice and to go on with life as usual. There is this idea of no insight, momentary (flashing) insight and continued insight, in the suttas. Flashing insight would be where there is some sudden sporadic noting of the characterisitcs/dhammas. Continued insight requires that the mind be prepared and insight is continuous because faculties of the mind are developed to a degree which is conducive to this. Removement of kilesa is much quicker as well because the mind is 'made malleable' as seen after jhaana practice. K:Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and > nothing wrong with falling asleep? M: I think there is a sense of urgency and that the mind has to be prepared to experience the full results of what the buddhist path has to offer. The Buddha has said that samatha and vipassana are like to wheels of the chariot of the dhamma. To do only one without the other is IMO like trying to attain nibbaana without keeping precepts -ie not quite the balanced way of doing things. Why would the buddha instruct one of his formost desciples in this manner, after making a journey to come and see him, without asking him to directly start insight practice? K: Getting up to walk to shake > sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? M: All practioners will have all these things in the begining. I dont think when a person's mental faculties are weak it is even possible to note the very subtle sense of self/sukha/permanance concepts working behind the scenes at every moment, not just when one has the thought 'I need to attain nibbaana/I need to get a haircut'. So this is where everone starts and thats perfectly fine. The important point is that the practice leads to unshakable insight into the three characteristics even though it start in the opposite end of the spectrum of (non)insight. It is possible to be aware of continued impermanence when one is aware of the dhammas arising and passing away, and this is an important stage of insight. "Therefore, Dighavu, when you are established in these four factors of stream-entry, you should further develop six qualities conducive to clear knowing. Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications, percipient of stress in what is inconstant, percipient of not-self in what is stressful, percipient of abandoning, percipient of dispassion, percipient of cessation. That's how you should train yourself." [SN LV.3] The stages of abandoning, dispassion and cessation do follow such practice quite quickly, rather than prolonged periods you would find in the flashing insight type of practice. The mind is full of moha and with such practice it would take decades. K:But maybe > instructions are for samatha only? M: I think the bottom line is that people find it easier to read books, listen to sermons, engage in dhamma discussions and note the occassional dhamma, rather than do the more difficult bits. But then everyone must do what works for them regardless of whether it takes longer or shorter. The instructions IMO are in preperation of the mind for eventual insight practice. metta Matheesha 45511 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:50am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > >Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. > >But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not > >stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them > >they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. > > > > > > I like the way you put this. Much of what we take for 'mindfulness' is > just thinking about dhammas or their characteristics. We don't actually > *see* things as they truly are. Thanks for the reminder. > > >PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. > >But I do not know when will that be. > > > > > > Sounds like the only way we're going to get you into the 'Photos' file > is to take a picture of you ourselves. OK, we'll be ready when the time > comes (but you'll have to check to make sure we'll be in Hong Kong). > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. :-) I will check beforehand. And I will also check when leaving this world. What to check? 1. where am I going? 2. where am I not going? 3. am I going anywhere? 4. is there somewhere that I am going to? 5. lastly is there someone who is going to go somewhere? :-) With much respect, Htoo Naing 45512 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:52am Subject: Dhamma Thread (369) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Vitakka has to be jhana-vitakka and vicaara also has to be jhana- vicaara if they are to be jhana factors. Piiti means 'rapture' or 'suffused joy'. Again, there are many forms of piiti or joy. Piti can follow kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyakata dhamma. Piti is a flexible cetasika. But to become a jhana-piti there have to be accompanied by other jhana factors at least jhana-sukha and jhana-samadhi or jhana- ekaggata. There are khuddakaa piti, khanikaa piti, okanti piti, ubbhegaa piti, and pharanaa piti. This classification is not so important. What is important is that these piti have to be accompanied by other jhana factors, which are always accompanied by pannindriya cetasika, saddhaa, sati, alobha, adosa, tatramajjhattata and other sobhana cetasika. Like piiti, sukha also has to be jhana-sukha. Sukha is 'pleasant feeling'. Feeling or vedana is a cetasika and this cetasika, when working as jhana-sukha is not like other sukha vedana or pleasant feeling. Because other pleasant feelings are almost always accompanied by akusala cetasikas. But jhana-sukha is accompanied by pannindriya cetasika, sati, saddha and other sobhana cetasikas or beautiful mental factors. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. : Piiti has been explained in cetasika portion of Dhamma Thread. 45513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing Dear Christine and all, Your post is stimulating one to explore Dhamma deeply. You wrote: Hello James, all, One of the first long threads I was involved in when I joined dsg some years ago concerned Metta - it was explained to me, by senior members of this list, that it could not be radiated to oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry Christine, I cannot read all messages at DSG. But metta is not a physical one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: This left me with feeling, after long and torturous discussion, that metta was just a quality in a person conditioning them to act with goodwill, and in a friendly way, towards all beings in the world - but was not ever to be directed towards oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Directionwise there must not have any limitation. 'May my metta go in that way and not in this way' is not appamanna or unlimitable pure- living. There does exist attachment when there is a choice. Oneself is already included in unlimited beings. Why not be directed towards oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I also gained the impression, contrary to general usage, that it was not a 'psychic' force of any sort, and one couldn't, for example, 'send' metta to someone in sickness or trouble to help them feel better or change their conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When vipaka, kamma, sankhara, dhamma etc are understood there is no way to arise such issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you [? James] quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... metta and peace, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: People are almost deluded with illusionary thinking. But there are conditions that may help those who are in trouble. At least 'who are radiating metta' will have a sweety face because of pure mind if it is real metta and not lobha. This sweety face may support the troubled people. Otherwise no one can influence vipaka. This is true even for The Buddha. That is The Buddha will not be able change vipaka. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45514 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayoniso manasikaaro sarahprocter... Hi Connie, (& Phil) --- connie wrote: S:On the cool desert island book things- > I'd think Howard would enjoy reading that kind of stuff. What kind of > Disney rides do you think he went on? Jon has never given me the > creeps. ... S: Howould we know Howard’s rides? I’d guess the merry-go-round with baby Sarah:) Jon likes the scariest ones on offer that give me more than a few creeps. Do you think there’s a connection between cautions and creeps? oops:-) > that's samphappalaapa. ... S: taking your word for it:-? ... ( > > A couple other cool desert island book things, just because: > << > "... the kamma of the followers who assert what is not the Law is > greatly > reprehensible. " dsp v2 pp175-6. ... S: and schisms in the Order – kamma of immediate effect ... > > 2394. Herein, true pride is cast out by the path of arahatship; what is > > not true pride is cast out by the path of Stream Entry. .... S: I have this marked in my text too. What is called ‘true pride’ is The idea of superiority in one who is superior, equality in one who is equal and inferiority in one who is inferior. The other kinds of pride being of course the idea of superiority in one who is not superior etc. the ‘true prides’ are the last to go and include the most subtle. Lots more here for the desert island. ... S: Walking advantages – I looked up that word on obstacles which you translated as few obstacles and came up with no obstacles....changing posture, better for the body and drosiness...no obstacles to sati as I see it. I have to try and remember to get up from the computer and walk around every so often so as not to have to go running for wrist and neck help...loved all the waling graffiti btw in #43501 too Also, as you wrote to Htoo and all: “But I think the well instructed monk knows there is no my surviving foot in all this coming and going, just things ‘come about merely by means of the diffusion of the air element through the action of consciousness’ and such.” Who is Pali-Girl, Mary, JozaiDog, Dinah and what was the big KAboom the other day? What about a key – translations like Tep gives in the anapanasati extracts:-). >Bhaasite (“in talking”): in the act of speaking. Herein, when there is no occurrence of the derived materiality of the sound base, there is no talking; when it occurs there is, and the bhikkhu who lays hold in this way is one who practices clear comprehension in talking...” .. S: The bhikkhu understands that any dhammas just arise according to conditions, understands whatever is appearing...no need to concentrate or select or label any dhammas or concepts...walking, walking, talking, talking....clear comprehension is a lot deeper than that.... And on speech, Phil, the quality or sound of the voice is also conditioned by kamma. Even arahants can have rough or loud or harsh-sounding voices... Only the Buddha doesn’t have vasana, the habits conditioned by kamma and subsequent cittas. Connie -look f/w to more extracts and clues along the way....hope you're over the floods, fires, flus and other illusionary obstacles. Metta, Sarah ======== 45515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo >The point that I made above is here. Jon wrote > >'samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana'. > >So it is clear that it is not exactly 'rupavacara rupa jhana'. But it >is 'the samadhi which have the strength and nature of jhana'. > >I used to say on this that 'samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path' is >not of rupavacara rupa jhana or not of arupavacara arupa jhana. But >one has to emerge from rupa jhana or arupa jhana and then he or she >has to see directly on 'NAMA' or 'RUPA' while seeing 'anicca-dukkha- >anatta' markers on that nama or rupa. So it is in the vicinity of >rupa jhana or arupa jhana. Or it may well be khanika samadhi or it >may well be upacara samadhi to work as part of Noblke Eightfold Path >as samma-samadhi. > > Thanks for these comments. I'd just to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes in his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on this point, which I believe are based on the commentarial material: "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas*, and because they *possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas*." (CMA Ch. I, Guide (i.e.. summary of commentary) to ##30-31) In the PTS translation, the relevant passage of the text of the A-S itself reads: "(41) By taking each in five ways by division according to association with jhaana-factors, the unsurpassed consciousness is said to be fortyfold." This I think is to the same effect as the second of the reasons given in the BB passage above. Jon 45516 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread (370) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Each factor has been talked in the previous posts. To become jhana factors, all these 5 cetasikas have to work in their full power as jhana-factors and they work hand in hand in the first jhana. All these 5 factors have to be cetasikas of 1st ruupa jhana citta to become jhana-factors. The leader is 1st jhana-citta. It is also called rupavacara 1st jhana rupuakusala citta. As it is a citta, it always has its object. It always has to depend on a ground or vatthu. All 1st jhana citta, whether they are kusala citta or vipaka citta or kiriya citta, they always depend on hadaya vatthu. When there is no hadaya vatthu or heart-base then there is no 1st jhana citta at all. 1st jhana citta cannot arise in aruupa brahmas as they do not have any rupa and so they do not have any hadaya rupa. So it is clear that 1st jhana citta depends on hadaya vatthu. And 1st jhana citta also has to depend on an object. Here the object for 1st jhana citta is always pannatti. No other object can be the object of 1st jhana citta. This is always true. But lokuttara cittas always take nibbana as their object. So lokuttara 1st jhana citta also take nibbana as its object. This happens, because lokuttara 1st jhana citta is a lokuttara citta. It is not rupavacara 1st jhana citta. So lokuttara 1st jhana citta can NEVER take pannatti as its object. But all rupavacara 1st jhana citta always always take pannatti as their object. As there are 26 kinds of kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st rupa jhana, there are 26 different kinds of pannatti for 1st jhana citta depending on what kammatthana has been practising. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45517 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:56pm Subject: The Conceit: 'I Am' ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Primary Self-Deception of a core Ego: Even when old & sick, the wise Elder Khemaka spoke this & thereby made himself & 60 listening bhikkhu friends fully awakened Arahats: Friends, I do not speak of 'I Am' as within form, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from form! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within feeling, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from feeling! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within experience, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from experience! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within mental construction, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from mental construction! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within consciousness, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from consciousness! Friends, although the notion 'I Am' has still not been eliminated by me regarding these five clusters of clinging, yet I do not regard anything among them or within them as 'This I am...' ... Friends, even though a Noble Disciple has broken the five minor mental chains, eliminated the five lower fetters, still, regarding these five clusters of clinging, there remains in him a residual conceit 'I Am', there lingers a subtle desire for being: 'I Am' and there hang on a latent tendency to conceiving 'I Am', that has not yet been uprooted! Sometime later while he dwells contemplating the rise and fall of the 5 clusters of clinging: 'Such is form, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is feeling, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is experience, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is mental construction, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is consciousness, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing, is it's passing away... As he dwells thus contemplating rise & fall in these five clusters of clinging, any residual conceit 'I Am', any remnant desire to 'I Am', & any latent tendency 'I Am', that had not yet been uprooted, this becomes uprooted & eliminated completely... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III [130-1] Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html Book: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 PS: The causes of origin cause arising when they are present, while ceasing when they are absent: Cause of Body & Form is Food, past Ignorance, Lust for Form, and Action resulting in Form. Cause of Feeling is Contact, past Ignorance, Lust for Feeling, and Action resulting in Feeling. Cause of Experience is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Experience, and Action resulting in Experience. Cause of Construction is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Construction, & Action resulting in Construction. Cause of Consciousness is Name&Form, Ignorance, Lust for form, Action resulting in Consciousness. Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45518 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self christine_fo... Hello Htoo, all, Thank you for your helpful post, it is much appreciated. One point is still unclear - the radiating of metta to oneself. This was discussed some years ago, and this post is part of that thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9322 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <<>> > Htoo: > > Directionwise there must not have any limitation. 'May my metta go in > that way and not in this way' is not appamanna or unlimitable pure- > living. There does exist attachment when there is a choice. > > Oneself is already included in unlimited beings. Why not be directed > towards oneself. <<>> > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45519 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (371) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' These are cetasikas and there are other cetasikas in 1st jhana. In total there are 35 cetasikas in 1st jhana. But only above 5 cetasikas are counted as jhana-factors. They are 1. vitakka 2. vicara 3. piti 4. vedana 5. ekaggata. All jhanas, ruupa or aruupa, are opposite to aversion. So aversion has to be abandoned at all 'stages of development of mind' up to 'genuine jhana-state'. All jhanas, ruupa or aruupa, are opposite to kaama. So kaama has to be abandon at all stages of development of mind' up to 'genuine jhana- state'. Aversion is easy to understand. But kaama is a wide subject and it needs further elucidation. Kaama are things related to 5 physical senses. It is normal for all kaama beings that they have kaama related mind. They will be thinking in the way that more and more kaama objects are experienced. They will be involving in kaama related things most of the time. However, all those who want to stay in jhana and who want to become brahmas in their next life will have to abandon both kaam and aversion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45520 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental proliferation right now. Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. I like the zennies at times like this. peace and bliss Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > > Thanks for joining this discussion. > > --- matheesha wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > <...> > > I must say that I have been helped greatly by 'meditating all those > > hours in the day and 'living unnaturally' as you put it. :) > ... > S: I think I did say 'living unnaturally' for me -- I'm a reasonably > sociable person as you can see here and to live silently in a forest with > minimal contact and little reading is very 'unnatural'. On the other hand, > here in Hong Kong's hustle bustle, I'm perfectly at home:). > .... > > You might note many suttas where the buddha praises a great disciple > > in meditation in a jungle without even a single movement of the > > body. > ... > S: You might also note many suttas where the opposite is true. For > example, look at the Mighajala Sutta in SN about living alone in the > crowds or look at Meghiya in Udana 4-1. He was the Buddha's attendant and > went off to the mango grove to meditate against the Buddha's advice and > was overcome by kilesa (defilements). [Lots more on the deeper meanings of > seclusion etc in U.P. under 'solitude, seclusion'.] > ... > >You might note other places where they are practicing walking > > meditation, enjoying fewness of desires and even fewer meals and > > hours asleep. :) > ... > S: Well, I read mention of developing bhavana while walking, sitting, > standing etc. Again, pls see 'Walking' in U.P. and join in Htoo's > discussion:). Fewness of desires - yes, but by understanding desires and > other dhammas when they arise. I usually get up pretty early and only eat > one meal and a bit, but I think that has very little to do (in my case) > with fewness of desires -- probably, quite the contrary:). The same > applies when I take myself off somewhere quietly for half the day or do my > yoga or tai chi - desire is there, no matter how calm or tranquil it might > appear. > .... > <..> > > Yes of course it is motivated by desire and a sense of self. > ... > S: Especially if the actions are motivated by a sense of self and this is > what is being accumulated, it should be known. It doesn't mean one needs > to change ones habits, but it's important to see any wrong views of self > more and more at such times > ... > >Once > > VenAnanda was questioned by an ascetic about the buddhist path and > > he talks about the 4 bases of power (sathara iddipada) of which the > > first one is canda, which is a form of desire. > .... > S: Just to be clear, the chanda which is an iddhipada is kusala > (wholesome) desire. chanda can be wholesome or more usually, unwholesome. > When we were referring to desire in our discussion, it was to lobha > (attachment)and unwholesome desire I think. (At least I was). > > Matheesha, I liked your sutta summaries, but to discuss further, you'd > need to give me links or references. It's true that unwholesome states can > condition wholesome ones, but that doesn't mean we cultivate the > unwholesome ones. For example, anger may condition some wise reflection, > but it doesn't mean that anger should be cultivated. > .... > > There is a sutta where the buddha admonishes Anathapindika and says > > that lay people should spend time in seclusion, not just giving > > dana. I dont see anything wrong in spending a few weeks away on > > retreat as a necessary boost to develop some of the mental faculties > > the buddha speaks of. > ... > S: Again we'd need to look at the Buddha's words more carefully. I also > don't see anything wrong with retreats as such. It always comes back to > bhavana - the meaning and the present mental states. If we're not in > retreat now, should we wait until we are for bhavana? > .... > I have benefitted greatly from it and gained > > much insight which otherwise i would not have. Most sutta would be > > gibberish and just studying about the 'taste of oranges' if you know > > what i mean. There's no hindrence to coming back and living your > > life as it is. > ... > S: Again, the right cause will lead to the right results. Moments of real > bhavana - samatha or vipassana development will lead to great results > whether on retreat or at the computer in the city. The hindrance to > satipatthana is wrong view about present dhammas. > ... > > > > I'm sorry that you feel that such experience has not been useful to > > you. > ... > S: Again, let me stress that I think that any moments of wise reflection, > wise consideration and genuine sati are very useful. Moments of trying to > direct sati with an idea of self or trying to have certain mental states > arise or selecting particular objects for bhavana is less than not > useful:). I think this is all regardless of the situation or circumstances > we find ourselves in. > ... > > > > Do you really feel that it is not possible to experience such things > > as jhana mentioned in the suttas as we presently dont have enough > > good kamma, as was suggested by someone earlier? > .. > S: I'm not really bothered about whether it's possible to attain jhana or > become an arahant today for that moment. I know that there is (in my case) > so little development of samatha and satipatthana that it's more helpful > to just begin to understand the present dhammas as they appear now, rather > than thinking about possible attainments in future, when we can have no > idea. > > When others talk about their attainments, it's OK. We can check what is > said in the texts and see if it makes sense. > > See also 'Sasana - decline' in U.P. if you like. > ... > > > > I am not questioning what works for you. We all have to tread our > > different paths. Different things work for different people. > <...> > ... > S: Iknow this is a popular view. Only one path of satipatthana leading to > one eightfold Path however. > > Thanks for your feedback, Matheesha. I am not saying to you or anyone > 'Don't meditate' or 'Don't go to the forest'. I'm jsut saying that the > path is about understanding present conditioned dhammas regardless of > special intentions, locations or postures. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 45521 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:56am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Phil), Christine: I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... James: Christine, I assure you that I am not taking K. Sujin out of context. She is agreeing with the `radiation of metta' to influence other beings. Really, you shouldn't be surprised because that is what the Buddha taught regarding the Brahma-Viharas. I will quote the longer dialogue (since you have raised doubt) and then I will provide the link (which I believe is in the original post to Phil). In this dialogue, "S" is Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket and "W" is Ms. Wandhana Thippewan: W. : I understand that dosa is not only anger. Thus, whenever the citta is harsh, when it injures and lacks mettaa, the characteristic of dosa appears. S. : Did you ever hear the expression of extending mettaa? W. : I have heard this expression. When I listen to a sermon on Dhamma in the temple, I notice that the monk, after he has finished, exhorts the lay-followers to extend mettaa. We then follow up what he says and recite words concerning the extension of mettaa. S. : When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone else. If someone does not harm or hurt others by actions or words, it is clear that he has mettaa to such extent that he can abstain from ill deeds through body and speech. W. : If that is the case, the observance of the five precepts is a way to evaluate the result of the development of mettaa and its extension. It should be extended with a sincere inclination. The strength of a persons intention to extend mettaa will bring its appropriate result. http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri2.html Metta, James 45522 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:58am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Htoo, all, > > Thank you for your helpful post, it is much appreciated. > > One point is still unclear - the radiating of metta to oneself. > This was discussed some years ago, and this post is part of that > thread: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9322 > > metta, > Chris -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, 'Metta brahmavihaara kammatthaana bhaavana' or 'loving-kindness pure- living mediational cultivation' does deal with one's self. 'Aham avero homi' 'May I be free from enemies' 'Aham abyapajjo homi' 'May I be free from danger' 'Aham aniigho homi' 'May I be free from suffering' 'Aham sukhiattaanam parihaaraami' 'May I be healthy and wealthy'. Aniigha = niddukkha = free of dukkha These 4 citations or 4 wishes are for reference. Metta starts with sending to one's self. When this oneself is not healthy and die there is no way to send metta to other. So the most important thing is to send metta to one's self. This is no doubt. Only after that all other 528 citations or 528 wishes are made or metta is sent to 10 different directions. One's self is the most deared one in 31 realms. Take a scale of 2 sides with the indicator in the middle and put yourself into one side and put others into the other side. The scale must indicate equal and the indicator must stand in the right middle. That is you = me you = your son you = your daughter you = your etc etc you = your best friend you = your other friends you = any person you = all people you = all beings you = your enemy you = your enemies you = unknown beings These equations are just weightage of metta. There must not be any limitation. If there is limit, then there is lobha and it is not true metta. When people say that metta cannot be sent to one's self, I think they might be considering on the occasions when they are sending metta to others. But to one's own self is quite possible. See 'Aham avero homi' 'Aham abyaapajjo homi' 'Aham aniigho homi' 'Aham sukhiattaanam parihaaraami'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45523 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' What is 1st jhaana? 1st jhaana is 'a mental state in which there are 35 cetasikas, among which 5 are jhana-factors, along with mind-generated matters' while arising these faculties there is burning out of the opposite to jhaana namely kaama, aversion, instability, worry, sloth, torpor, doubt & suspicion. These words seem very technical. But jhaana needs thorough understanding before they are being developed and practised. Otherwise one may step on the wrong way as there always are strong attractions to wrong path while these highly intelligence requiring states are being developed. That is why Dhamma Thread repeatedly explain on jhaana matters. First, when in the portion of citta, jhaana cittas are explained along with jhaanas. Second, the result of jhaana gives rise to rebirth in brahma bhuumi and when these bhuumis are explained, jhaanas are also explained. And third, kamma that are rupavacara are now again explained in connection with jhanas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45524 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, I'm sorry you lost the earlier message ...it's a real test of patience to re-write a long post I find. --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like > this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. ... S: In brief, I wasn't a nun and I don't think I referred to 'troubling experiences' at all. On the contrary, I'd been encouraged (erroneously)to believe there were all sorts of wondrous experiences and insights. The highlight, however, was definitely realising that my 'practice' had been mis-guided from beginning to listen to A.Sujin, reading a manuscript of some chapters of ADL and really study Tipitaka texts with a friend at the end of my stay. I hasten to add that it was a beautiful forest temple with very kind supportive people and a wonderful opportunity to participate in temple life, listen to the monks chanting, live a very simple life and so on. All of that was a very long time ago, btw. .... > I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have > swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I > feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental > proliferation right now. ... S: Well, I'd rather discuss more on nekkhama anyway. How do you understand nekkhama? .... > > Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm > trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. ... S: Giving up of what? Giving up of worldly possessions or giving up of defilements? ... > > Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of > giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse > of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. .... S: yes, I agree - panna for the sake of giving up the idea of self and other kilesa as I see it. How about you? .... > > I like the zennies at times like this. ... S: please say a little more:-/ Thanks so much Matheesha for taking the time to write again to me. Also, I enjoy reading your other posts. Metta, Sarah p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours did. ======== 45525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi again Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >I agree with Jon. The Buddha just preached a continuous actions. >Aataapi sampajaano satimaa viharati. > >Aataapi = who is producing effort, one who has diligent effort >Sampajaano = sam_well, pa_detail, jananti_know (clear understanding) >Satimaa = mindfulness >Viharati = abide > >There is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The >Buddha. But The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events >through out the day and night and as long as conscious. > >This implied inference can be seen in mahasatipatthana sutta that The >Buddha preached in 21 sessions. > >1. abiding in contemplation of the body 14 sessions >2. abiding in contemplation of feeling 1 session >3. abiding in contemplation of mind 1 session >4. abiding in contemplation of dhamma 5 sessions > ------------ > 21 sessions > >Even though The Buddha preached in 21 sessions, these sessions are >not separated practices. So it is wrong to assume that there is >sitting meditation, walking meditation etc etc. > >These are just talked to communicate. > > I agree. As I see it, the message we get from the suttas is that there can be mindfulness or understanding of any dhamma at any time regardless of the current posture or activity. The prerequisites to that mindfulness are not a particular kind of 'practice' but a proper grasp of certain fundamental aspects of the teachings such as the dhammas that can be the object of mindfulness. >If someone assumes that 'such acitvity' is genuine practice he will >do so when he is practising in that way. But as soon as out of hour, >he will be out of dhamma. > >The activity itself may or may not be the right one. If one wrongly >practise then it will be wrong practice rather than genuine practice. > > I think if one is doing something because one thinks it is taught by the Buddha as the way to develop mindfulness, but one has misunderstood the teaching in question, then there will inevitably be wrong practice. This is the danger of any form of directed 'practice'. There are no points for trying in this game (unfortunately)! Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow 'morph' into right practice. Jon 45526 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep >T: Why is labelling that important? > > A good point, Tep. But a certain degree of consistency of labelling makes discussion easier, don't you think. Unfortunately, 'meditation' is one of those terms that seems to defy definition, and what it means to one person will be different to what it means for another. >T: The mindfulness practice while in any body posture is, of course, >known as kayanupassana-satipatthana in MN 10, DN 22. Walking and >meditate, as well as sitting and meditate were recommended by the >Buddha in some suttas like MN 39: > >Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. >During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of >obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, >we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the >night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot >overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will >sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will >purify our minds of obstructing states.' -- MN 39 Mahaassapurasuttam. > >The purifying one's mind of obstructing states while walking >is "labelled" as "walking meditation", and "while sitting" is known >as "formal meditation" . The Buddha only provided a direction without >details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. >Buddhaghasa also did it his way. > > Thanks, Tep, your explanation is helpful. But I think at the same time it highlights one of the difficulties of this particular label. 'Walking meditation' seems to be used to mean both meditation *of* walking (i.e., movement of feet, etc., as a form of vipassana/satipatthana) and meditation *while* walking (i.e., maintaining one's chosen (samatha) meditation subject, as I suspect in intended in the context of purification of obstructing states). Likewise 'sitting meditation' is used by some to mean samatha, by others to refer to vipassana. Only by sticking to the terms used in the texts can this kind of confusion be avoided. But that is a personal preference of mine, and I know others have other approaches. Jon 45527 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (373) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 jhaanas. 4 are ruupa jhaanas and other 4 are aruupa jhaanas. Aruupa jhaanas base on ruupa jhaanas and all ruupa jhaanas are derivatives of 1st jhaana. So it is important that the first jhaana is thoroughly learned. The firsr jhaana has been defined in the previous post. It is a mental state. That mental state is associated with 35 cetasikas and among these 35 cetasikas, 5 cetasikas are jhaana factors. These 5 cetasikas which are jhaana factors are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicara or 'sustained application' 3. piti or 'rapture or joy' 4. sukha or 'peace or calmness or tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' So 1st jhana is a state when there are total clearance of 5 hindrances of 1. kaamacchanda nivarana / sensuous-thought hindrance 2. byaapaada nivarana / aversive-thought hindrance 3. thina-middha nivarana / sloth-torpor-thought hindrance 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana / wandering-worrying-thought hindrance 5. vicikicchaa nivarana / suspicious-doubtful-thought hindrance while energetic working of 1. vitakka [jhaana-vitakka] or 'initial application to jhaana object' 2. vicara [jhana-vicara] or 'sustained application to jhana object' 3. piti or rapture or suffused-joy 4. sukha or peace or tranquility of calmness 5. ekaggataa or stillness or fixity or absolute calm without ripples May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45528 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Is a kalapa an object of consciousness? Does it have > characteristic, > > function manifestation and proximate cause? > > > > Larry > > -------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Dear Larry, > > > > I think, I have said that Nina, Rob M etc are good at these 4 > > features > > of realities. They may answer your questions. > > > > What I think is that kalapa or aggregate itself has already been > > pannatti even though I have said it is basic working unit. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Hi Htoo, > > Okay, if kalapa is a concept is contact a concept? I am talking here > not of the contact cetasika but of the coming together of three > realities, sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. Is > consciousness cognizing an object a concept? In all of these cases we > have two or more realities together. The Buddha talks about khandha a > lot. "Khandha" means group. "Sankhara" can mean to form into a group. > What is going on here? One dhamma is real; two dhammas is concept???? ===== The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be taken as object by a mind-door process. In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take paramattha dhammas as objects. Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at the moment). Larry, does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 45529 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Htoo, Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? metta Matheesha 45530 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:37am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi again Htoo I think if one is doing something because one thinks it is taught by the > Buddha as the way to develop mindfulness, but one has misunderstood the > teaching in question, then there will inevitably be wrong practice. > This is the danger of any form of directed 'practice'. There are no > points for trying in this game (unfortunately)! > > Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice > that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow > 'morph' into right practice. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, I understand you and Sarah with regard to 'formal sitting meditation'. And I also sense right wish of those who want to fortify the practice. Those who are reluctant to do meditation practice because of inadvertant fear of wrong practition will regret later. It is good to do before we vanish from this world. The older we are the weaker we are and the less physical support from our body. Learning goes through trials and errors. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45531 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (374) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, It is now clear what 1st jhaana means as it has repeatedly explained againg and again. If only nama dhamma is viewed, then there is a citta who knows the object of 1st jhana and that citta is accompanied by 35 cetasikas among which 5 cetasikas are jhana factors and are working energetically while these 5 jhana factors burn their opposite enemies of lobha (sensuous thinking), dosa (aversive thinking), thina & middha (sloth & torporous thinking), uddhacca-kukkicca (wandering- worrying thinking) and vicikicchaa (suspicious thinking). 1st jhana is a mental state. This is now clear. But cittas in pancavokaara bhuumis or realms with 5 khandhas always have to depend on ruupa. Here all 1st jhana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu or heart-base. Cittas are also related to ruupa dhamma not only by depending as a ground or base, cittas also have to depend on ruupa as their object if cittas are pancadvara viithi cittas. Here 1st jhaana citta is manodvara viithi citta. Manodvarika cittas have an object which may be one of 6 alternatives. These 6 alternative objects are 1. pasaada ruupa or sense-base material like eye,ear,nose,tongue,body 2. sukhuma ruupa or subtle materials 3. cittas or vinnaanas or consciousness 4. cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments 5. nibbana or absolute peace 6. pannatti or naming(naming of ideas,naming of concepts &abstraction) Again, when manodvarika citta take an object it just take an object from its chosen category. If citta chooses category 1 of pasaada ruupa, the object will be one of 5 alternatives namely eye, ear, nose, tongue, body. If citta chooses category 2 of sukhuma ruupa, the object will be one of 16 alternatives, which are explained in ruupa portion. If citta chooses category 3 of cittas or vinnaanas, the object will be only one of 89 cittas or 121 cittas. If citta chooses category 4 of cetasikas, the object will be one of 52 cetasikas. If citta chooses category 5 of nibbana, the object will be only nibbana. If citta chooses category 6 of pannatti, the object will be just a name which may be concepts, abstraction, conceptualization, just naming. As 1st jhaana is a jhaana citta, the object will be pannatti as all ruupa jhaana take pannatti as their object. There are many many 1st jhaana cittas. There are ajjhatta 1st jhaana cittas, bahiddha 1st jhaana citta,etc etc. And as there are different kammatthaana or samatha kammatthaanas which give rise to 1st jhana, there will be different objects for different 1st jhana cittas. But character-wise all 1st jhaana cittas do take pannatti as their object. The only difference is that there are different naming and conceptualization, which derived from naama or ruupa dhamma initially. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45532 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. > The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. > The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. > > Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is > only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the > rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. > They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) > as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing > a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object > by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door > process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building > blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be > taken as object by a mind-door process. > > In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha > dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take > paramattha dhammas as objects. > > Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a > literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. > I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this > literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at > the moment). > > Larry, does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your explanation. I also hope Larry will happy with your explanation. Because you well explained in a clear picture. With respect, Htoo Naing 45533 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:44am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - Thank you much, Ken H, for focusing again on the same point that Jon and Htoo discussed earlier, i.e. do not concentrate on walking in order to know rupa or the characteristics. This is a misunderstanding of people who are well versed in Paramattha-dhamma principles, but they only know walking meditation as a label. So their superficial understanding of walking meditation led to misunderstanding. Jon has got the right understanding that labelling is not the issue at all. Walking and sitting meditations were recocommended by the Buddha (see MN 39 and MN 53) for the monks to practice at nights. There are many ways you can meditate while walking. Have you read my message to Jon #45479 yet? Ken H: Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. T: Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the life-span on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > You wrote: > ----------- > > The Buddha only provided a direction without > details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. > Buddhaghasa also did it his way. > ----------- > > I agree that meditation teachers have added what you call details. > However, Buddhaghosa should not be seen as a teacher of formal > meditation. Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. There was never any intention that we should concentrate on walking in order to know rupa. > > Ken H 45534 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? > > metta > > Matheesha -------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to explain to you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45535 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:56am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Ken H, Jon and all, If it involves contemplation on ruupa according to the earth, water, fire and air element then it sounds like right. When walking there are all 'earth' 'water' 'fire' and 'air' elements. But water element is not perceive through the body. Instead it is perceived through the mind door. 1. when just going to lift off the foot there is 'air' element or vayo-photthabba. Because there becomes lighter and lighter and then the foot is raised up. 2. when the foot is swung there is 'air' element definitely. 3. just before landing there becomes heavier and heavier there is also 'air' element. But in essence there also is 'water' element or apo dhaatu. But as there is no apo-photthabba water element is not perceived through body-door. But that heaviness and flowing down to the ground is element of water. 4. the heel touch the ground or the floor there is 'earth' element or pathavi-photthabba. And endless ruupas are arising through out walking meditation. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45536 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (375) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are altogether 40 kinds of object for meditation. Any forms of meditation will go into one of these 40 meditations. The only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations. That is why many many beings who obtained different degrees of calmness before appearing of The Buddha but they never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana. Kammatthaana = kamma + thaana Kamma here means 'bhaavana kusala kamma' or 'mental cultivating actions' and thaana means 'the place where that action takes place'. So kammatthaana also means 'bhaavana object'. There are 2 different kinds of bhaavanaas. They are samatha bhaavanaa and vipassanaa bhavanaa. These 2 kinds of mental actions are totally different. And this can be tested by anyone with their own faculties of mind and body. There are 40 kinds of samatha kammatthaanas or 40 objects of samatha- meditation. They are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaanas 2. 10 asubha kammatthaanas 3. 10 anussati kammatthaanas 4. 4 brahmavihaara or 4 brahmacariya kammatthanas 5. 4 aruppa kammatthaanas 6. 1 aharepatikuulasanna kammatthaana 7. 1 catudhaatuvavatthaana kammatthaana. So there are 7 kinds of objects and altogether 40 objects of samatha meditation. Vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma with contemplating diligently with clear conprehension and understanding on these naama or ruupa dhamma. Dhamma Thread is now talking on the object of 1st jhaana. And this will appear in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45537 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Htoo and KenH}- A discussion with you almost always gives me a sense of joy, because there is no intention on anything else beyond trying to understand the Dhamma more clearly. For example, there is no intention to find fault. Jon: > Thanks, Tep, your explanation is helpful. But I think at the same time > it highlights one of the difficulties of this particular label. > 'Walking meditation' seems to be used to mean both meditation *of* walking (i.e., movement of feet, etc., as a form of vipassana/satipatthana) and meditation *while* walking (i.e., > maintaining one's chosen (samatha) meditation subject, as I suspect in intended in the context of purification of obstructing states). Likewise 'sitting meditation' is used by some to mean samatha, by others to refer to vipassana. > > Only by sticking to the terms used in the texts can this kind of > confusion be avoided. But that is a personal preference of mine, >and I know others have other approaches. T: As I explained to KenH in a message a little while ago [Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the lifespan on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644.], the broken-down of leg and foot movement is for the purpose of "seeing" mahabhuta-rupa. The earlier story of my walking meditation experience is a "meditation while walking", in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are on the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back). The result has been quite good in the sense that both rupa and nama arise with no mental attachment, while sati and sampajanna are unbroken, sometimes. I agree with you about the lack of a standard description. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > >T: Why is labelling that important? > > 45538 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:29am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James (and Tep) Hi Jon, Jon: Hope you don't mind if I butt in ('creep' in?) here. James: ;-)) Oh, I guess you are welcome to creep in anytime you want. This is your group after all. I am going to try and be nice and calm while I respond, even though your approach really irritates me to no end- the appearing to agree and then turning everything around…grrrrr… You seem to know just how to push my buttons! ;-) Jon: Did the Buddha teach 'walking meditation'? As Tep suggests, let's not get hung up on a name or label. I think we can all agree that if he did it was as part of the development of samatha (tranquillity) or the development of vipassana (insight). James: Hmmm…well, yes. We agree! Names and labels are not important. Those who are truly wise don't get hung up on the use of words. Jon: Samatha and vipassana are forms of kusala that occur through the mind-door (only), that is to say, that do not include any element of action through speech or body. James: Hmmm…now it seems that things are beginning to switch. Now you are suggesting that samatha and vipassana cannot occur in relation to the body. Your position is still unclear, not strongly stated, but I feel a sense of unease. I know that the Buddha taught that nama and rupa are inseparable in the sensual realms. Jon: For example, if there is metta now, or reflection on a point of dhamma, and it is accompanied by panna that knows the kusala (tranquil) quality of the moment, that is samatha bhavana. James: A lot of vague terminology: "metta now", "reflection on a point", "quality of the moment" etc. which leave me unsure as to the exact meaning. This is a transitional smoke screen. Jon: If there occurs spontaneously a level of attention to the presently arising visible object or sound, or attachment or aversion, or any other dhamma, so that there is the direct experience of that dhamma, that is mundane insight. James: Now, here you are saying that any form of attention to rupa is "mundane insight"-which is, of course, not that good compared to supramundane insight (the ultimate goal). Jon, slowly you have moved from agreeing to me to subtly disagreeing with me. Is it any wonder that I say your subterfuge gives me the creeps? Jon: In the case of samatha, high levels of attainment (such as jhana and the approach to jhana) are typically (but not necessarily) associated with a certain austere lifestyle and a seated posture alternated with periods of walking on a suitable walkway, and there are plenty of references in the suttas to this kind of activity. James: A neutral statement to segue to your next killer statements. Jon: When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. James: Oh, okay, let's just all give up the farm! According to you Jon, it isn't the practice or the lifestyle which leads to kusala states, it is the previous accumulations. Never mind that the Buddha gave up the householder life and meditated under the Bodhi tree to achieve enlightenment, because he had all the proper accumulations he could have just stayed in his palace and done the same thing in the arms of his concubines. ;-) Jon: I think the primary condition for the development of a given form of kusala is one's previously accumulated tendencies for that form of kusala. James: Oh yes, now we are getting the full-fledged Jon talking! Jon: Now I think all of us here must have developed both samatha and vipassana in previous existences, otherwise we would not have the strong interest in the teachings that we do, so with the right supporting conditions in this lifetime, and these include of course moral encouragement and a sound theoretical understanding, there can be moments of tranquillity and insight development, even though we are not at the same advanced level as those who lived at the time of the Buddha. James: Nothing but pandering to the group. Tell them all that they have no choices or control, and then suggest that everything may still turn out for the best in the end. Oh, how sweet. Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. James: In other words, just study the teachings, don't do anything else `special', and maybe everything will turn out okay over time. Possibly, but that isn't the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta (with some aversion mixed in), James 45539 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:47am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha (and Htoo) - You asked : Hi Htoo, > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? Htoo wrote (#45534) : Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to explain to you. Tep: Well, I'll explain to you as a well-informed bookworm should. First, what is vimutti ? It is the deliverance, or release as the result of clear knowing after avijja (ignorance) has been eradicated. Second, what is ceto-vimutti? It is the 'deliverance of mind', because ceto = mind and vimutti = deliverance. But there is more to say: ceto-vimutti is the state of mind that is free from greed, hatred and ignorance Metta-cetovimutti is the deliverance of mind that is boundless, since loving-kindness is one of the four boundless states(brahma-vihaara). Maybe the above answer is too brief. If there is anymore question, please feel free to ask me further. If I can't answer it, somebody else will be able to. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, 45540 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:13am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James, Jon and others - I have been entertained by the Jon-James dialogue in the message #45538. Jon: When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. James: Oh, okay, let's just all give up the farm! According to you Jon, it isn't the practice or the lifestyle which leads to kusala states, it is the previous accumulations. Never mind that the Buddha gave up the householder life and meditated under the Bodhi tree to achieve enlightenment, because he had all the proper accumulations he could have just stayed in his palace and done the same thing in the arms of his concubines. ;-) Tep: I think Jon either tries to rewrite the Buddha's Teachings to fit his lifestyle, or he is asking for a compromise -- an easy way out of the difficult kind of lifestyle ("Holy life") of the ariyans. --------------------------------------- Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. James: In other words, just study the teachings, don't do anything else `special', and maybe everything will turn out okay over time. Possibly, but that isn't the Noble Eightfold Path. Tep: Jon, it depends very much on what you mean by "earnest interest in the teachings" and how you are converting that into real actions. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Hi James (and Tep) > 45541 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, S:I'd been encouraged (erroneously)to > believe there were all sorts of wondrous experiences and insights. M: Mmm.. would you mind telling us about these experiences? We might all learn something from it. > S: Well, I'd rather discuss more on nekkhama anyway. How do you understand > nekkhama? M: This is difficult. Please remember im no abhidhamma scholar so im talking from meanings rather than definitions. I might use convenient/popular terms as well, quite unknowingly, as it is not my mother tongue. As I understand it, its a mental attitude, like wanting to 'move away from the light', only in this case it is all worldy phenomena (sights,sounds,sensations..). Away from the harsh light of fabrications and sink into the cool 'darkness' of the unconditioned. It is a mental attitude which generates a movement of the mind. Consciousness stops longing for proliferation in the sense spheres. Subtle bliss starts arising possibly because the mind moves towards rest from grasping. M: > > Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm > > trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. > ... > S: Giving up of what? Giving up of worldly possessions or giving up of > defilements? M: Letting go of all worldly phenomena (mentally that is -is there anything else?), because everything is of the three characteristics. > M:> Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of > > giving up.> S: yes, I agree - panna for the sake of giving up the idea of self and > other kilesa as I see it. How about you? M: In a sense the whole path is about letting go. Sila - letting go of unwholesome actions. Samadhi- letting go of 5 hindrences/defilements and other agitations of the mind. Panna- understanding the true nature of existence -which leads to letting go of all conditioned phenomena. But the fetters tie us to phenomena. Even though a sothapanna experiences nibbana momentarily his 'mind' is 'brought back' to the sensory (kama/rupa/arupa) world because of the fetters. Jhana gives stregnth to the mind to pull against the fetters and reexperience phala citta again. Jhana is a very powerful thing. It would be difficult to act against the fetters with a mind without strong samadhi. :) sorry if all this is a bit 'rich'. I might be delusional for all you know! Not claiming anything. I might be wrong, but I feel comfortable right now with my understanding and it has withstood the test of time. Its a few hours since my last post, and im getting more verbose now. M> > I like the zennies at times like this. > ... > S: please say a little more:-/ M: I know little about zen practice. Mostly from the lady who does the zen class after I attend to mine. They dont believe in talking about the dhamma -just experiencing. Cuts out the vitakka, vicara. They just use bare awareness, with their eyes open and attend to phenomena. When my mind is quiet after practice, I find this attractive. > p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long > messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours did. M: I usually do ... thanks im on call today. So this is giving me a nice break. metta Matheesha 45542 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Thank you Tep, I had a vague idea that it was the first jhana based on metta practice, ie metta as object of meditation. But you feel this means more than that ie-attaining nibbaana. Do you know how ceto-vimutti differs from panna-vimutti? We hear of arahaths who are released in 'both ways'. The other variety is those released only with panna-vimutti. There is no category of arahaths which is released only with ceto-vimutti as far as I know. So I was under the impression that ceto-vimutti didnt refer to final liberation. Any comments from anyone are welcome. People are too polite on this list :) metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha (and Htoo) - > > > You asked : Hi Htoo, > > > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? > > Htoo wrote (#45534) : Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to > explain to you. > > Tep: Well, I'll explain to you as a well-informed bookworm should. > > First, what is vimutti ? > > It is the deliverance, or release as the result of clear knowing after > avijja (ignorance) has been eradicated. > > Second, what is ceto-vimutti? > > It is the 'deliverance of mind', because ceto = mind and vimutti = > deliverance. But there is more to say: ceto-vimutti is the state of mind > that is free from greed, hatred and ignorance > > Metta-cetovimutti is the deliverance of mind that is boundless, since > loving-kindness is one of the four boundless states(brahma- vihaara). > > Maybe the above answer is too brief. If there is anymore question, > please feel free to ask me further. If I can't answer it, somebody else > will be able to. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > 45543 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:18am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] matheesha333 Hi Jon, J:> Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice > that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow > 'morph' into right practice. M: Allow me to comment on this. If you were to sit down and with a mind suffused with one-pointdness of a jhana, we to maintain watch the arising and passing away of the 5 aggregates, insight would arise, that there is no self, because everything we ever thought of as self would be fully explored and there would be nothing permanent to be considered as self. The person who started doing this would have had a self view. Now he doesnt. metta Matheesha 45544 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha, Jon, Htoo, Phil, James, Kel and more ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Thank you Tep, > > I had a vague idea that it was the first jhana based on metta > practice, ie metta as object of meditation. But you feel this means > more than that ie-attaining nibbaana. > > Do you know how ceto-vimutti differs from panna-vimutti? We hear of > arahaths who are released in 'both ways'. The other variety is those > released only with panna-vimutti. There is no category of arahaths > which is released only with ceto-vimutti as far as I know. So I was > under the impression that ceto-vimutti didnt refer to final > liberation. > > Any comments from anyone are welcome. People are too polite on this > list :) > > metta > > Matheesha > > Tep: If you could prove that panna-vimutti is all we need to attain Nibbana, you'd probably please many Abhidhamma devotees. Telling them that they need both ceto-vimutti (awareness release, or deliverance of mind) and panna-vimutti (discernment release) will not make you their favorite. According to AN II.30, you'll need both: "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." [ Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta, A Share in Clear Knowing] So, according to the above sutta, is it correct to make a deduction that wisdom development alone -- without samatha bhavana in tandem for releasing the mind from passion -- there is no way anyone can fully develop panna to the lokuttara state? M: People are too polite on this list :) T: Do you mean a) they usually give polite comments, or b) they politely refuse to tell you when you are wrong? :>|) My answer in terms of probabilities is a) 90% of the time, b) 10% of the time. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45545 From: "mnease" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view mlnease Hi Andrew, First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own opinion into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream enterer is one very specific mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for self, but can still certainly experience papa~nca. This is how I see it, anyway... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:25 PM Subject: [dsg] Papanca and self-view > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? 45546 From: "mlnease" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Again Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own opinion > into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. I should have written 'definition' rather than 'translation'; > Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream enterer is one > very specific mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or > 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for self, > but can still certainly experience papa~nca. and I should have written, 'eradicated by stream-entry', rather than 'eradicated by the stream enterer'. mike 45547 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:56pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, my Dhamma Friend - Thank you for providing information for the 4 mahabhuta-dhaatus associated with the "walking meditation". Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - > > > > But the broken down of walking motion into "stages > of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate > rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air > elements. > VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. > > Respectfully, > > Tep > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Tep, Ken H, Jon and all, > > If it involves contemplation on ruupa according to the earth, water, > fire and air element then it sounds like right. > > When walking there are all 'earth' 'water' 'fire' and 'air' elements. > But water element is not perceive through the body. Instead it is > perceived through the mind door. > > 1. when just going to lift off the foot > > there is 'air' element or vayo-photthabba. Because there becomes > lighter and lighter and then the foot is raised up. > > 2. when the foot is swung > > there is 'air' element definitely. > > 3. just before landing there becomes heavier and heavier > > there is also 'air' element. But in essence there also is 'water' > element or apo dhaatu. But as there is no apo-photthabba water > element > is not perceived through body-door. But that heaviness and flowing > down > to the ground is element of water. > > 4. the heel touch the ground or the floor > > there is 'earth' element or pathavi-photthabba. > > And endless ruupas are arising through out walking meditation. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45548 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. dacostacharles I like this post ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 15 May, 2005 13:54 Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. Hi Sarah, I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental proliferation right now. Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. I like the zennies at times like this. Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott <....> 45549 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Rob, I am proposing a third category, "formations". A kalapa (compound of rupas)is neither a reality nor a concept. It is conditioned but asabhava (empty). Similar to a kalapa are shapes and movement. Experience is formations of realities and concepts. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. > The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. > The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. > > Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is > only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the > rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. > They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) > as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing > a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object > by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door > process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building > blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be > taken as object by a mind-door process. > > In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha > dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take > paramattha dhammas as objects. > > Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a > literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. > I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this > literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at > the moment). > > Larry, does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 45550 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (372) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are > > 1. vitakka or 'initial application' > 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' > 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' > 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' > 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' > Hi Htoo, I believe piiti and sukha belong to different khandhas but I've forgotten which is which. Isn't one vedana and the other sankhara? Larry 45551 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Hello Christine, Certainly you can send yourself metta. In fact, all metta meditations that I have heard of or practiced begin with giving oneself metta and then directing metta to others starting from those closest to you then those further and furter away. I remember on the first 3 day retreat I went to, it was led by Ven. Mahinda. He is well known for his well developed metta ability. We started most of our meditation sessions by doing metta first and then going on to anapanasati. At one stage, he asked all of us to direct our metta to him. We did so with our feeble attempts and then he said that he would direct his meditation towards us. I felt this great wave of warmth and power emanating from him that I was surprised. It made me realise how powerful this sort of meditation can be. However, it also made me think about what metta is. I could only conclude that it is a mind "state" - that is the mind's desire for all to be well & happy. Of course there are two possibilities for what I "felt". 1. It was phychological on my behalf - ie because I was expecting something to happen, I felt something or 2. The metta mind, well developed is so powerfull that the minds of others can sense it. Anyway, that experience, whether rightly or wrongly has left the impression on me that metta is far more powerful and important to the practice than I originally thought. Christine, if you are interested, I have a CD of Ven. Mahinda taking a metta meditation session. One can sit down, put the CD on and do the meditation. It takes about 20 minutes. If you would like a copy, you can send me your details directly to my email address and I will send you a copy. In fact, if anyone else on this forum would like a copy I am happy to make a copy for whoever would like one. With Metta, Evan 45552 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Tep, Hmm..not trying to be anyone's favourite :) here to learn and share. ----------------- Bhikkhus, there are seven persons evident in the world: What seven: those released both ways, released through wisdom, those with body witness, those come to righteousness of view, those released in faith, those living according to the Teaching, and those living according to faith. Bhikkhus, who is released both ways: Here bhikkhus, a certain person experiences with the body those immaterial attainments and also with wisdom sees the destruction of desires. To such a one is said released both ways. Bhikkhus, to such ones, I do not say abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not .experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom. Bhikkhus, to such a one too I do not say, abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/070-kitagiri-e1.htm ----------------------------- But I'm sure you'll agree, there is no ceto-vimutti alone. It is simply 'fading of passion' and vimutti in that instance does not refer to nibbana. This might also help to clarify: http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-063.html There is a panna-vimukta alone as you can see from the first sutta - but note that there is no comment about material jhana - they only lack immaterial jhana. IMO there needs to be atleast the first material jhana to become an arahath. I once ran across a sutta in the AN which said that sothapannas and once returners only need a partial amount of samadhi, while nonreturners and arahaths need samma samadhi. With reference to the growing indirya of the various stages (again ref in the suttas) I would say that samma samadhi in that reffered to the four material jhanas -as is often its definition (and rarely not). So IMO Arahaths atleast need the first material jhana level of samadhi, as mentioned in some suttas. (sorry about the lack of references!) >T: So, according to the above sutta, is it correct to make a deduction that > wisdom development alone -- without samatha bhavana in tandem for > releasing the mind from passion -- there is no way anyone can fully > develop panna to the lokuttara state? M: Developing wisdom to the lokuttara state happens in a sothapanna. The sutta you posted speaks about arahathood. This requires some explanation, bear with me :) Sathi gives rise to samadhi. Sathi on one object gives rise to samadhi, much faster than sathi on multiple changing objects, because samadhi is simply one-pointedness (citta-ekaggatha). Samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana both give rise to samadhi, but to varying degrees, as you can see from that. Those who do vipassana bhavana using prolonged sathi, give rise to more samadhi, than those who would occasionally note the dhammas. The question is what do you mean by 'wisdom development alone'. If it is just sutamaya panna and cintamaya panna, i think it would be very difficult. Better chance for those with prolonged mindfulness. Much better for those who do both S&V. Thats just what I think. The speed of attainment is determined by the maturity of the faculties. I just dont think anyone should feel they dont have enough kamma- its a crime to have this human birth and not even try! Theres hardly anyone who cannot attain a jhana in atleast a few months if they give it a proper go, while living a lay life. It might not be a great thundering text book type strong jhana which monks can achieve but it is enough for the initial stages. Yes, there is such thing as a weak jhana -see ven mogallana's training in the suttas! (Im getting sleepy now) Tep, while the sutta you posted talks of both samatha and vipassana, it is very difficult to seperate the two, to say that only one is happening and not the other. This is why I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path. Sathi--> Samadhi-->Panna My ideas are based on what i learnt, thought and experienced, each influencing the other two. Dont mean to tread on any toes, just putting across an alternate viewpoint. > M: People are too polite on this list :) > > T: Do you mean a) they usually give polite comments, or b) they > politely refuse to tell you when you are wrong? :>|) > M: lol! I was thinking about all those 'excuse me for butting in' type of thing, when the finers are itching on the keyboard! metta Matheesha 45553 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:18pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Phil, If one is weak in metta, then all the more reason for practicing metta. If that practice is incorrect, then so be it but not to try at all is worse. To try and fail is better. To try and succeed is the best of all of coarse but we do have help with monks available to show us the way. After all, not many people can say that they sat down in their first meditation session (say anapanasati) and enteredd jhana or gained wisdom of the rise and fall of phenomena. Time and practice if required and that goes for metta as much as for other forms of meditation. With (weak and agitated) Metta, Evan Ph: Metta is powerful, definitely. When someone's citta *is* metta, it is powerful. And the Buddha taught it - we know that from the metta sutta. But for me it's very obvious that metta doesn't arise because we want it to. I used to sit and think about metta and believe that it was metta. It was just more of that self-pleasuring I mentionned before! The metta sutta is another sutta that is describing a person whose citta stream is in a very refined condition. It's a very different thing when modern-world folk sit down when they are feeling agitated and think they are generating metta, in my opinion.I guess the same thing goes for intentionally experiencing sati, though I'm not quite as sure as that. 45554 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Vism.XIV,158 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 158. (18)-(21) As regards the supramundane, firstly, in the case of the path consciousness having the first jhana they should be understood to be as stated in the case of the first fine-material-sphere consciousness (9). The paths classed as belonging to the second jhana, etc., should be understood to be as stated in the cases [respectively] of the second fine-material-sphere jhana, and so on (10)-(13). But the difference here is absence of compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii),67 constancy of the abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), and supramundaneness. ---------------------- Note 67. 'Because the path consciousnesses have nibbana as their object and because compassion, gladness, etc., have living beings as their object, there is no compassion, etc., in the path' (Pm. 491). 45555 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Nina lbidd2 Hi all, Nina is back but it may take a few days for Yahoo to get back to normal. She asks if anyone has questions for her in the next few days to put "Nina" in the subject box so she doesn't miss them. Larry 45556 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Evan Thanks for asking these questions, making these comments about my overly-confident comments. It was a reminder to me that it's a bit silly for a beginner like me to make such broad comments about a practice that has come down through the centuries and helped so many millions of people. But I'll probably continue being silly... :) > If one is weak in metta, then all the more reason for practicing metta. > If that practice is incorrect, then so be it but not to try at all is > worse. I went through a period here in Japan during which I was incapable of riding the crowded train home without drinking a beer first. There was so much aversion. And on my days off, if I went out in crowded places with my wife, again, I would like to have a beer. I was very self-conscious about being a non-Japanese, feeling alienated, easily angry. I atarted to use metta meditation intentionally in those days to deal with what was in fact (still is at times) a mild form of mental illness. If I did it in the morning, it made it easier to deal with aversion-causing situations, that's true. (Didn't stop the temper outbursts though) So I can appreciate the therapeutic benefits of this kind of practice. And maybe it provided me with conditions in which I would have more capacity to appreciate Abhidhamma, with its emphasis on lack of ability to control the arising of cittas (maybe that is an emphasis that is stronger through Kh Sujin's teaching rather than Abhidhamma itself - I know Rob M, an Abhidhamma teacher/authority whom I respect greatly, does metta meditation.) Now there is hardly ever aversion from the kind of situations that used to cause it, because there is no one there, in the ultimate sense, to be annoyed by. And therefore there are less obstructions to metta arising during the day. And I come to appreciate unexpected metta, and this unexpected metta has who knows what kind of conditioning power for more of the same. As I joked once, if the brahma-viharas are the "divine abodes" how can a guy like me move in so easily? So yes, if metta is weak, you may be right, let's try to develop it - maybe. As long as we realize that what we take for metta when we sit down and try to tap into it may be something very different, attachment to pleasant feeling, for example, which wouldn't move us closer to liberation, though it might make life easier in the short run, and - yes - might help to provide stable emtional conditions for insight to develop in a truer, deeper way. I guess my point is that although I have come to speak out against intentionally developing metta, I agree with you that there might be benefits from trying to do so at the beginning. Maybe it did help me in ways I can't know. But I think we should be aware that metta that arises beyond our intentional control is a different reality. And that lasting liberation cannot come through believing that "beautiful cetasikas" (sobbhana cetasikas) such as metta can be generated intentionally. Metta, Phil 45557 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self lbidd2 Phil: "I guess my point is that although I have come to speak out against intentionally developing metta, I agree with you that there might be benefits from trying to do so at the beginning. Maybe it did help me in ways I can't know. But I think we should be aware that metta that arises beyond our intentional control is a different reality. And that lasting liberation cannot come through believing that "beautiful cetasikas" (sobbhana cetasikas) such as metta can be generated intentionally." Hi Phil, I think you are describing the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousness. Also, you left out one thing: there is benefit to others. Larry 45558 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Larry (and CHarles) > Also, you left out one thing: there is benefit > to others. Thanks. Good point. But there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense. We let go of irritations more easily. In the traditional metta method, assigning people to categories (respected person, neutral person, difficult person etc) it seems to me there are so many stories. People come to be seen in a kind of rigid, lasting way when we know that is wrong view. There is jsut nama and rupa, just khandas. I think that we can learn to let go of these storeis through Abhihamma, and when we let go of stories about people maybe we can benefit them in a more lasting way instead of assigning them a role as "difficult person" etc... Metta, Phil p.s Charles, I was going to get back to you this morning, but won't have time. Thanks for your questions/comments and catch you later. 45559 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, This is an "anomaly" that Venerable Mahinda pointed out with metta from the beginning. All other teachings view beings as being composed of a number of "aggregates" which form together due to karmic results whereas metta views beings as separate beings without viewing their constituent aggregates as such. I tend to see this "duality of concepts" in the same way as quantum physics sees things. For example, in some instances light displays wave properties and can be modelled using wave equations and in other instances it displays particle behaviour and cannot be modelled using wave equations. That is just the way it is and there is no correlation other than it is the same object displaying these two different properties at different times properties. In other words, I don't try to correlate metta with the other teachings - they just work and I am satisfied with that. Others may be able to do a better job of it but I don't know whether it is possible to correlate the two. With Metta, Evan Phil: Thanks. Good point. But there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense. We let go of irritations more easily. In the traditional metta method, assigning people to categories (respected person, neutral person, difficult person etc) it seems to me there are so many stories. People come to be seen in a kind of rigid, lasting way when we know that is wrong view. There is jsut nama and rupa, just khandas. I think that we can learn to let go of these storeis through Abhihamma, and when we let go of stories about people maybe we can benefit them in a more lasting way instead of assigning them a role as "difficult person" etc... 45560 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am proposing a third category, "formations". A kalapa (compound of > rupas)is neither a reality nor a concept. It is conditioned but > asabhava (empty). Similar to a kalapa are shapes and movement. > Experience is formations of realities and concepts. I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new category of "formations". I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be conditioned? Metta, Rob M :-) 45561 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:13pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha {Attn: Jon, Htoo, James, Phil, Howard and others} - I am sorry to inform you that both Web links of yours only led to an error message. M: (quoted MN II.70) "Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not .experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom." M: There is a panna-vimukta alone as you can see from the first sutta - but note that there is no comment about material jhana - they only lack immaterial jhana. T: The panna-vimutti is not separated from samatha at all, according to the following sutta! Anguttara Nikaya IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." [end quote] -------------------------- M: Developing wisdom to the lokuttara state happens in a sothapanna. The sutta you posted speaks about arahathood. This requires some explanation, bear with me :) T: The explanation is fine, but I don't understand why AN II.30 is about arahathood. Of course, the arahathood is the end result, but shouldn't the starting point (to develop the lokuttara panna) be far away from that? --------------------------- M: Tep, while the sutta you posted talks of both samatha and vipassana, it is very difficult to seperate the two, to say that only one is happening and not the other. This is why I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path. Sathi--> Samadhi-->Panna. T: I guess the word "Sathi" above is the same as Sati. It was a keen observation of yours about the intertwined occurrence of samatha and vipassana in Satipatthana bhavana. For example, in the "body in body" contemplation (kaye-kayanupassi viharati) both sati and sampajanna are developed together. The DN 22 Commentary explains that the samatha calm (or tranquillity) is "stated by mindfulness" while "insight(vipassana) is stated by clear comprehension". So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna. ------------------------------ M: My ideas are based on what i learnt, thought and experienced, each influencing the other two. Dont mean to tread on any toes, just putting across an alternate viewpoint. T: You have done very well indeed. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= 45562 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:31pm Subject: [chocolate /was Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenH, > > I've been enjoying your posts lately - > hoping all the activity on-list means you have blunted your dhamma > sword :-) > Looking forward to seeing you, Andrew T, and Steve this weekend. > > Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... > "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" > Thanks Christine, it will be good to see the gang again - what a pity Azita lives that little bit too far away. But we might lure her back when the weather warms up. ------------------- > Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" ----------------- Actually, I think chocolate is a medicine. Didn't Steve tell us that? Mind you, we are going to be suspicious if you have suddenly contracted the required disease. :-) KenH 45563 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Rob: "I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new category of "formations". I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be conditioned?" Hi Rob, Yes on both counts. And also because two realities doesn't seem to make a concept or symbol. Their multiplicity seems to be real but as a group there is of course no sabhava (own nature). Without sabhava a formation can't be a direct object of consciousness, only a formation of consciousness. Hence it can't be known but it can be desired in a vague, uninformed sort of way. This vagary goes a long way in explaining ignorance. We could say formations are concepts but I see concept as a linguistic device while formation is a kind of mental synthesis. Maybe a philosophy of knowlege or language would marry these two but that's over my head. Larry 45564 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self lbidd2 Phil: "there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense". Hi Phil, I agree, but understanding doesn't seem to be something we can give to others. Compassion, loving kindness, appreciation, and equanimity can be given freely to all without limit. Try it on the train or in the street. Even if it only makes the smallest difference, that's something. Larry 45565 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 195 - Enthusiasm/piiti (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Píti has many intensities. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) and the Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 115,116) explain that there are five kinds of píti. We read in the Visuddhimagga: * "… But it is of five kinds as minor happiness, momentary happiness, showering happiness, uplifting happiness, and pervading (rapturous) happiness. Herein, minor happiness is only able to raise the hairs on the body. Momentary happiness is like flashes of lightning at different moments. Showering happiness breaks over the body again and again like waves on the sea shore. Uplifting happiness can be powerful enough to levitate the body and make it spring into the air… But when pervading (rapturous happiness) arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation."(IV, 98) * Píti is able to condition bodily phenomena. The “uplifting happiness” which is the fourth kind of píti can even levitate the body. One example given by the Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní is the case of a young woman whose parents did not allow her to go to the monastery to listen to the Dhamma. She looked at the shrine which was lit by moonlight, saw people worshipping and circumambulating the shrine and heard the chanting. Then “uplifting happiness” made her jump into the air and arrive at the monastery before her parents. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45566 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:20pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: -------------------------- > Thank you much, Ken H, for focusing again on the same point that Jon and Htoo discussed earlier, i.e. do not concentrate on walking in order to know rupa or the characteristics. This is a misunderstanding of people who are well versed in Paramattha-dhamma principles, but they only know walking meditation as a label. So their superficial understanding of walking meditation led to misunderstanding. ----------------------------- I was referring to the description you gave of your own walking meditation. In 45323, you said: "When I am fully aware of each movement of the body (walking, stopping, standing, turning back) and when I know its begining and its ending, that is knowing ruupa." ----------------------------- T: > Jon has got the right understanding that labelling is not the issue at all. Walking and sitting meditations were recocommended by the Buddha (see MN 39 and MN 53) for the monks to practice at nights. There are many ways you can meditate while walking. Have you read my message to Jon #45479 yet? ----------------------------- Yes, you quoted those suttas as saying: "'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states." I'm not sure if you and I agree or not. Walking and sitting are what we all do in the first and last watch, and reclining is what we do in the middle watch. The monks aspired to purify their minds at those times in whichever posture they happened to be. Should we imply from that that they practised mindfulness of sitting, walking and reclining? I say, no, but I'm not sure if you agree or not. In that message, you also said: "The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own" That's where I came in - saying that the meditation teachers should have kept out of it because there was no such direction in the first place. I also said Buddhaghosa should not be seen as one of those [formal] meditation teachers. ----------------------------------------- Ken H: > > Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. > > .............. T: > Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the life-span on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. ----------------------- I have just checked Nina's message again, and Buddhaghosa does indeed break walking into stages "timewise." You said to Nina: "Next he divides a single footstep into six parts as 'lifting up', 'shifting > forward', 'shifting sideways', 'lowering down', 'placing down', and 'fixing> down'. VM XX, 62" And then you gave the following quote from the Vissudhimagga. Please read it again: "He attributes the three characteristics to materiality according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of these six parts into which he has thus divided. ... ... wherever they arise, there they cease stage by stage, section by section, term by term, each without reaching the next part: therefore they are impermanent, painful, not-self " VM XX, 64-65. So, Buddhaghosa does divide walking time-wise. However, we were both right because, later, he also divides it element-wise. :-) Ken H 45567 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote: > Hi Again Andrew, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" > wrote: > > > First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own > opinion > > into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. > > I should have written 'definition' rather than 'translation'; > > > Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream > enterer is one > > very specific mental factor which falls into the category > of 'existence' or > > 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for > self, > > but can still certainly experience papa~nca. > > and I should have written, 'eradicated by stream-entry', rather than > 'eradicated by the stream enterer'. Hi Mike Corrections noted. I didn't quote Ven Thanissaro's note in full (but gave the necessary reference for those wanting to check) but the extract I selected was, I believe, faithful to the remaining sentences. To be fair, the note may not have been intended as a comprehensive definition of the term "papanca". In any event, it does give a different, more selective impression than Htoo's message #45444 which I take to be the standard Theravada line ie that papanca stems from tanha, mana and ditthi (not just the self-view aspect of ditthi). Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). In my case, it pays to read around and ask questions!! (-: Thanks and take care Andrew T 45568 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:46pm Subject: Mighty Merit Making ... !!! ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Where does a Gift result in Great Fruition ? Sakka - king of gods - once asked the buddha: For those folks who wish to share, For those beings in quest of merit, Wishing to do good here in the world, Where does their gift return great fruit ? The blessed Buddha answered: The four Nobles practicing the Way, # The four Nobles enjoying the Fruit, % These are the Sangha behaving straight, Focused by understanding on what is right. For those folks who wish to share, For those beings in quest of merit, Wishing to do good here in the world, Any gift to this Sangha bears great fruit ! # Those on the path to Stream-entry, Once-Return, Never-Return & Arahat state. % Those in fruition of Stream-entry, Once-Return, Never-Return & Arahat state. Source: The Grouped sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 233 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45569 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a > mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new > category of "formations". > > I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this > because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be > conditioned?" > > Hi Rob, > > Yes on both counts. And also because two realities doesn't seem to make > a concept or symbol. Their multiplicity seems to be real but as a group > there is of course no sabhava (own nature). Without sabhava a formation > can't be a direct object of consciousness, only a formation of > consciousness. Hence it can't be known but it can be desired in a vague, > uninformed sort of way. This vagary goes a long way in explaining > ignorance. > > We could say formations are concepts but I see concept as a linguistic > device while formation is a kind of mental synthesis. Maybe a philosophy > of knowlege or language would marry these two but that's over my head. ===== As Nagasena points out at the beginning of Milindapana, King Milinda's chariot has no ultimate existence as "chariot" is a name / designation / phrase / term / concept / formation representing a group of component parts arranged in a particular manner. Nagasena's focus was not concept vs. reality, but rather anatta. I agree with you that a concept is a lingusitic device, but I see the function of this concept as being mental synthesis. A kalapa is a grouping of ultimate realities whereas other concepts may be grouping together of other things (including other concepts... to create meta-concepts?). Nevertheless, I see formations and concepts as the same thing. Please help me to better understand the difference between concepts and formations according to you definition and, more importantly, what benefit it brings to separate the two definitions. Metta, Rob M :-) 45570 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:29am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo Thanks for these comments. I'd just to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes in his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on this point, which I believe are based on the commentarial material: "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas*, and because they *possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas*." (CMA Ch. I, Guide (i.e.. summary of commentary) to ##30-31) In the PTS translation, the relevant passage of the text of the A-S itself reads: "(41) By taking each in five ways by division according to association with jhaana-factors, the unsurpassed consciousness is said to be fortyfold." This I think is to the same effect as the second of the reasons given in the BB passage above. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your quote. All magga cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. All phala cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. All jhaana cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. But lokuttara cittas are not 'ruupavacara rupakusala cittas'. Lokuttara cittas are not 'aruupavacara aruupakusala cittas'. All lokuttara cittas have 'nibbana' as their only object. All lokuttara cittas do not have 'the rupa-jhana-object'. All lokuttara cittas do not have 'the arupa-jhana-object'. With respect, Htoo Naing 45571 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:53am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are > 1. vitakka or 'initial application' > 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' > 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' > 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' > 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Hi Htoo, I believe piiti and sukha belong to different khandhas but I've forgotten which is which. Isn't one vedana and the other sankhara? Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, 0. pannatti = no khandhaa 1. 1st jhaana cittas = vinnana-kkhandhaa 2. sukha = vedana-kkhandhaa 3. jhaana-sannaa = sanna-kkhandhaa 4. vitakka-vicaara = sankhara-kkhandhaa piiti-ekaggataa other 29 cetasikas 5. hadaya vatthu = ruupa-kkhandhaa As the object in 1st jhaana is pannatti there is no ruupa serving as object. But there is hadaya ruupa serving as the ground for 1st jhana cittas. Other ruupa-kkhandhaas are 1. kaaya-vinatti ruupa of jhaana 2. 4 maaha bhuuta ruupa that hadaya ruupa has to reside 3. jivita ruupa 4. ahaara ruupa For support jivita ruupa, ahaara ruupa have to work for 1st jhaana. For base hadaya ruupa has to work for 1st jhaana. Kaaya-vinatti ruupa is just a manifestation of 1st jhaana. They are ruupa-kkhandhaa. Apart from these 5 khandhas there is no other khandhas. Nibbana does not have a khandha. Pannatti is not a paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45572 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 40 objects of samatha bhavanaa or 'tranquility meditation' there are 26 kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st jhaanas. These 26 kammatthaanas are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaanas 2. 10 asubha kammatthaanas 3. 1 kaayagataasati kammatthaana 4. 1 aanaapaanassati kammatthaana 5. 4 brahmavihaara or 4 brahmacariya kammatthaanas. Among these 26 objects, only first 4 kinds that is only first 22 objects give rise to patibhaaga nimitta and other 4 objects which are the object of brahmavihaara or brahmacariya kammatthaana cannot give rise to patibhaaga nimitta because there is no stable idea exist. The first 22 kammatthaanas will be explained first before explanation on 4 brahmavihaara start. Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the other forms rather than bhaavana. So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things to those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to abandon bad mind of any form. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45573 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:13am Subject: 21 Sessions of Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 21 sessions of how to stay doing bhaavana or mental cultivations to purify the mind and to be released so as to be liberated from binding on panca upadanakkhandhaa or five clinging aggregates. All these 21 sessions were preached to bhikkhus disciples at Kammaasadhamma greater village of Kuru country close to Deli province of the current India. These were all preached by The Buddha. In the 1st 25 years there was no permanent attendant bhikkhu to assist The Buddha and His personal affairs. When The Buddha got old and frail, He announced that He became frail. The Sangha proposed that Ananda should be 'the attendant of The Buddha'. When Ananda was asked regarding this great job, he requested The Buddha that The Buddha had to re-preach all teachings that had been taught in the absence of him [Ananda]. So whenever Venerable Kassapa asked, Ananda replied; Thus have I heard [ Evam me sutam ] : Ananda told that 'maahaasatipatthaana sutta' was preached at Kammaasadhamma village of Kuru country at one time. The 21 sessions that The Buddha taught to his disciples bhikkhus are 1. 14 contemplation on the body 2. 1 contemplation on the feeling 3. 1 contemplation on the mind 4. 5 contemplation on the dhamma 'The' body here is 'the body' of the 'typical bhikkhu' in the sutta. This also refers to anyone who has been practising vipassana according to The Buddha instructions. So if one does satipatthana on the body that body is his 'physical body'. Again 'the' feeling is also the feeling of the practitioner. 'The' mind is the mind of the practitioner. 'The' dhamma is the dhamma that arise in the practitioner. There are 5 sessions on 'contemplation on the dhamma'. 1. 5 hindrances or 5 nivarana dhammas 2. 5 clinging aggregates or 5 upadanakkhandhas 3. 6 sense-base or 6 aayatana (6 ajjhatta and 6 bahiddha = 12 ayatana) 4. 7 enlightenment factors or 7 bojjhanga dhammas 5. 4 Noble Truths or 4 saccaa dhammas With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45574 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread (377) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana may be attained through the practice of samatha bhaavana of 26 kinds. If one does not practise brahmavihaara or brahmacariya as the main tool to achieve 1st jhaana, then he or she will have to practise one of 10 kasina kammatthaanas or one of 10 asubha kammatthaanas or kaayagataasati kammatthaana or aanaapaanassati kammatthaana. Kasina means 'whole'. Initially bhaavana kamma cittas take the visual object of a unicoloured material if kasina is colour kasina. There are 4 colour kasinas. They are 1. niila kasina 2. piita kasina 3. lohita kasina 4. odaata kasina Niila kasina can be practised by taking the object with darker colour like brown, blue, green etc. Piita means 'golden yellow' and lohita means 'red' or 'blood colour' and odaata means 'white colour'. Example material for kasina object is a circle with 2-feet diameter or 1 foot radius, which is covered with a smooth cloth with a unicolour. When first praactise kasina bhaavana, the bhavanaa kusala kamma cittas are all taking the visual object with unicolour. Kasina is not a mantra. But one needs to put the mind on that object repeatedly so that the mind does not depart from that object. At the beginning, there always are distractions and the mind does not stay still on the target object. When there arise preparatory concentration or parikamma samaadhi, there are little distractions and the mind stay there on the object most of the time. As the kammatthaana is kasina or wholeness, the mind has to spread all over the kasina object and not at a point but as a whole onto the object. The whole object is now recognised as a visual object as everyone can see as it is. The same applies to the practitioner that he recognises the object well and his mind is well on the object and hardly goes anywhere. As there is a good concentration and as his mind is there on the whole object, he does recognise all the detail of his visual object. He may see some overheaped thread, roughness, tiny staining etc. At a time, there arise an object in his mind. That object is something identical to the visual object but now no more a visual object. He can see very clearly it in his mind and the object is exactly the same except that the 2nd just stay in the mind and never exists outside. That object is a nimitta or a sign. That sign is a mental image of the visual object and it is no more a visual image but mental image. It is called uggaha nimitta. Since the appearance of that sign, mental concentration is much much better than the initial stage. The samaadhi or concentration at that time is called parikamma samaadhi or preparatory concentration. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45575 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, S:You’ve kindly asked for my comments on this thread a couple of times. Pajaanaa(ti) is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na,sammaadi.t.thi, vipassanaa or anupassanaa as I understand. From the Satipatthana comy: “sampajaanoti tattha katama.m sampaja~n~na.m? yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... sammaadi.t.thi. ida.m vuccati sampaja~n~na.m. iminaa sampaja~n~nena upeto hoti...pe0... samannaagato. tena vuccati sampajaanoti." ... S: Also from the Vibhanga: (Translation given in PTS Book of Analysis): “357. ‘Contemplating [anupassiiti]’ means: Therein what is contemplation [anupassanaa]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding [pajaananaa], :[see par 525]: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation. Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called ‘contemplating’.” Gacchanto – As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in ***the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities***. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one’s command that reinforces the idea of atta. I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we forget everything we’ve read about paramattha dhammas arising by conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. Metta, Sarah ======== 45576 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (378) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When there is parikamma samaadhi or preparatory concentration, the bhaavnaa kusala kamma cittas are all taking uggaha nimitta or the sign of mental image, which is identical with the initial visual image. At that time, the practitioner has to maintain that sign not to lose. This is usually compared with the mother-to-be who is protecting her pregnancy at all cost not to abort. If it is aborted, then the practitioner will have to try another time to attain the sign again. With persistent effort, there arises another sign which is similar to mental image but not identical. That new image is called counter image of mental image. It is patibhaaga nimitta or sign. That sign is much much more beautiful than mental image and when this sign appears all the non-beautiful markers on the sign disappear and there left only beautiful markers. When such sign arises, the mind is well calm and there is no hindrances at all unlike earlier stages. Before arising of this sign, there are occasional arisings of other objects in the mind but most of the time the mind is on the mental image and there does arise samaadhi. That samaadhi is called parikamma samaadhi or preparaotory concentration. From the time when uggaha nimitta or mental image arising to arising of patibhaaga nimitta or counter image is occupied by parikamma samaadhi. Since arising of patibhaaga nimitta, there arises another samaadhi called upacaara samaadhi or proximity concentration. It is called proximity concentration because it is approximate to appanaa samaadhi or actual jhaana absorption. Since arising of patibhaaga nimitta there is no more 1. sensuous thinking 2. aversive thinking 3. sloth-torpored thinking 4. spreading-worrying thinking 5. suspicious thinking At a time there arises appanaa samaadhi and as soon as that samaadhi arise, the mind is totally and completely absorbed into the object or the object is absorbed into the mind and jhaana is said to arise without any interruption or disturbances. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45577 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo, I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we forget everything we've read about paramattha dhammas arising by conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sara, So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45578 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (379) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 1st jhaana is a state when all mental activities are taking a single and the same object called patibhaaga naimitta. All the cittas in that jhaana are called 1st jhaana cittas or ruupavacara 1st jhaana ruupakusala cittas. The citta is rupavacara 1st jhaana rupakusla citta. It depends on hadaya vatthu as its ground. It takes patibhaaga nimitta, which is pannatti as its object. Associated jhaana factors are 1. vitakka or 'initial application', which applies the mind to patibhaaga nimitta 2. vicaara or 'sustained application', which sustainedly applies the mind to patibhaaga nimitta 3. piiti or rapture or 'suffused joy', which fills up the whole body as the mind takes up patibhaaga nimitta as its object 4. sukha or peace in tranquility, which tranquilisied the mind while taking the object patibhaaga nimitta 5. ekaggataa or one-pointedness or fixity, which fixes the mind to the object patibhaaga nimitta Even though there are other mental factors, these mental factors are working in the power of jhaana and they are called jhaana factors. As these factors are working well, they all burn their opposite or their enemies namely 1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous thinking' 2. byaapada nivarana or 'aversive thinking' 3. thina-middha nivarana or 'sloth-torpored thinking' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'spreading-worrying thinking' 5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious thinking' This is the 1st jhaana that take colour kasina as their object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45579 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) matheesha333 Hi Htoo, H:> Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before > proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala > kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the other > forms rather than bhaavana. > M: This would be good if it is possible, but to abandon all akusala at the stage of a beginner is impossible. IMO it would be better to attempt meditation as it is a gradual process in itself. With developing one-pointedness, the arising of akusala muula/hindrences will become less. Practicing other kusal would be good but often time is in short supply to the meditator and the priority has to be meditation. > So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things to > those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to > keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to abandon > bad mind of any form. M: ..as much as possible. He should also try to live a quiet life away from complication. Settle the bills, put the kids to bed and try to be free from worry ..as much as possible. :) When samadhi improves, it suppresses defilements, therefore sila improves, unwholesome mind states arise less frequently. It becomes a positive feedback loop. To wait until the mind/precepts is perfect is good for monks training where this will give a solid foundation. But for lay practice we need to use more skillful methods due to limitations. Metta and Asubha bhavana help in suppressing hindrences, and helps strong samadhi leading up to jhana to take hold. metta Matheesha 45580 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing Dear Matheesha, Thanks for your thoughts regarding kusala and bhaavanaa. You wrote: Hi Htoo, H:> Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before > proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala > kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the > other > forms rather than bhaavana. M: This would be good if it is possible, but to abandon all akusala at the stage of a beginner is impossible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, bhaavanaa or mental cultivation of kusala is a slow process. What I referred was to abandon 'very crude forms of akusala'. This is totally possible for all beginners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: IMO it would be better to attempt meditation as it is a gradual process in itself. With developing one-pointedness, the arising of akusala muula/hindrences will become less. Practicing other kusal would be good but often time is in short supply to the meditator and the priority has to be meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Priority has to be meditation. But the meditation can be supported by other non-bhaavanaa kusala at current stage and at later stages far beyond this current life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things > to > those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to > > keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to > abandon > bad mind of any form. M: ..as much as possible. He should also try to live a quiet life away from complication. Settle the bills, put the kids to bed and try to be free from worry ..as much as possible. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Minor hindrances have to be first cut up. If there are worries, there will not be any genuine bhaavanaa. Because worries and bhaavanaa are opposite. Worries are akusala and bhaavanaa are kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: When samadhi improves, it suppresses defilements, therefore sila improves, unwholesome mind states arise less frequently. It becomes a positive feedback loop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good to see positive feedback loop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: To wait until the mind/precepts is perfect is good for monks training where this will give a solid foundation. But for lay practice we need to use more skillful methods due to limitations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even for monks there are great obstructions and they all have to overcome with diligent practice. Lay people life is much more complicated and approach will be a bit different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: Metta and Asubha bhavana help in suppressing hindrences, and helps strong samadhi leading up to jhana to take hold. metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Matheesha, Buddhanussati, metta-sati, asubha-sati and marana- sati are 4 guardian meditations that help in vipassana practice. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45581 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. > ... S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. When seeing or visible object appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas), awareness can only be aware of that seeing [the nama] or that visible object [the rupa]. If instead of being aware and understanding that presebtly appearing dhamma at that very moment, there is a 'trying' to be aware of 'lifting the foot' or 'air element', for example, then it is not satipatthana. Instead it is a subtle or not-so-subtle idea that there can be awareness of another selected object and that still, 'we' are in control of these dhammas. There is attachment too, wanting to be aware whilst trying so hard. Meanwhile, the present objects such as the seeing, visible object, attachment, concentration and other dhammas are arising and falling away are quite unknown. I hope this clarifies a little my last comments and understanding of 'walking meditation' . As Bhikkhu Samahita just wrote in a good post on sakkaya ditthi: "The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: "All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere...." MN 106 [ii 106] S: I know you appreciate such quotes, Htoo. Sometimes, though, in spite of reading abhidhamma and knowing in theory that there are only paramattha dhammas, that they are conditioned and anatta, we still cling to the idea that we must do something special..... Metta, Sarah p.s the camera is ready! if you give plenty of advance notice, maybe others will visit Hong Kong at the same time and we can have some nice discussions. ======== 45582 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread (380) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 1st jhaana that arises taking colour kasina objects have been discussed. There are 4 different colours that can be used as colour kasinas or colour kasina kammatthanas or colour kasina kammatthana object. They are 1. niila or darker colour (like brown, blue, green) 2. piita or yellow colour (golden yellow) 3. lohita or red colour (blood colour) 4. odaata or white colour (glistening colour may also be used) Like these 4 objects, there are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water When pathavii kasina kammatthaana is going to be practised, the object can be prepared by making a circle filled with earth. Even though any earth can work, it is better to start with the earth with the colour of dawn (yellow-orange-red). Unprepared and untouched original earth-ground can also be the object. Initially what is seen is visual object that have light, shape, forms etc. Once there arise an image in the mind which is identical with visual object. But that new object arises only in the mind and it is called uggaha nimitta or mental image of visual object. When another image arises in the mind, that image is similar to uggaha nimitta but not exactly. Actually, it is different from uggaha nimitta. It is much muhc more beautiful that there is no staining, no blotch, no disfiguring marks like grass, dirt, dead insects etc. The whole image becomes uni- element and unicolour and brightened. This new image is called patibhaga nimitta or counter image of mental image. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45583 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: Hi Htoo, >--- htootintnaing wrote: > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. ... S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Only citta can know that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When seeing or visible object appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas), awareness can only be aware of that seeing [the nama] or that visible object [the rupa]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You put these complicated. I do not understand your message above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: If instead of being aware and understanding that presebtly appearing dhamma at that very moment, there is a 'trying' to be aware of 'lifting the foot' or 'air element', for example, then it is not satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Instead it is a subtle or not-so-subtle idea that there can be awareness of another selected object and that still, 'we' are in control of these dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I really do not understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: There is attachment too, wanting to be aware whilst trying so hard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The fear of attachment is akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Meanwhile, the present objects such as the seeing, visible object, attachment, concentration and other dhammas are arising and falling away are quite unknown. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For many people or almost all people yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I hope this clarifies a little my last comments and understanding of 'walking meditation' . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not that clear. What I understand is that DSG is discouraging meditation of any forms 1. sitting meditation 2. walking meditation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As Bhikkhu Samahita just wrote in a good post on sakkaya ditthi: "The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: "All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere...." MN 106 [ii 106] S: I know you appreciate such quotes, Htoo. Sometimes, though, in spite of reading abhidhamma and knowing in theory that there are only paramattha dhammas, that they are conditioned and anatta, we still cling to the idea that we must do something special..... Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you are frightened, do not do any special ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s the camera is ready! if you give plenty of advance notice, maybe others will visit Hong Kong at the same time and we can have some nice discussions. ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will give you 1 month advanced notice if I have planned to come. With respect, Htoo Naing 45584 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > S: > But then at the end you say; > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Dear Sukin, you said 'But then at the end you say;'. What is wrong > with my PS:? > -------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Sorry Htoo, I probably read in haste and did not pay proper attention to the actual wording. In my mind I have the idea that you interpret the Buddha's words as `deliberate doing'. In fact that is the general impression I get from reading many of your posts. You also talk about `one snake knowing about the feet of another snake' with Tep, and he is very pro-deliberate doing, i.e. formal meditation, indeed. So even though you did not state it here, I believe my remark is to some extent justified. ;-) Besides, on DSG, it happens so often that two people agree to some statement yet on a more basic level it is so clear that the basic understanding is quite different. In this regard I think even though I can appreciate much of what you write, in the end it must be because you are faithful to the Tipitaka, for when it comes down to practice, our views are quite different, and I don't think we can both be right. And patipatti being directly related to pariyatti, I think our difference lies on this basic level. So I am going to write as I said, about what I think a beginner needs to hear, but in another post. Because I think it relates to this question about pariyatti and patipatti. > --------------------- > Htoo: > Take time and try to control 'the steering wheel'. Otherwise you will > be liberated from Sukin-hood. ----------------------- Sukin: :-) Good one! Metta, Sukinder 45585 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:21am Subject: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Dear Htoo, As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? As K. Sujin often says, lobha both leads the way and it follows too. Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the work of wrong view. So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? Unless of course he has extreme wrong view and prefers to believe in such as the `oneness of existence' and `God'. And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. But of course, one does reason before about the method, and besides there must be a degree of right view which attracts us to Buddhism in the first place. However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. Do these teachers even warn us about the difference between concept and reality like you sometimes do Htoo? (Btw, I think you would be the best meditation teacher around, though I personally wouldn't come to you for any instructions. ;-)) But actually it does not matter as far as I am concerned, for the fault lies in the very idea of "doing". Whatever follows after that, new-age Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Samatha/vipassana method, is nothing but a proliferation of wrong view. Having the idea about `doing' and doing it, it does not help after that, to then justify this by bringing in our knowledge of dhammas to explain the process. As I said above, lobha and ditthi will use anything to go on. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted understanding of conditionality. When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often accused of taking the easy road. I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) And besides, `Right Effort' arises with other sobhana cetasikas and not any domanasa, isn't it? So what is the argument? You could say instead that they the meditators, thinking patipatti in stories, picturing themselves doing certain things, likewise project such a story on us. They think that we too think in stories and in their script they imagine us as `fearing the idea' of pain. But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 45586 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Andrew, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > Corrections noted. I didn't quote Ven Thanissaro's note in full (but > gave the necessary reference for those wanting to check) but the > extract I selected was, I believe, faithful to the remaining > sentences. To be fair, the note may not have been intended as a > comprehensive definition of the term "papanca". In any event, it > does give a different, more selective impression than Htoo's message > #45444 which I take to be the standard Theravada line ie that papanca > stems from tanha, mana and ditthi (not just the self-view aspect of > ditthi). Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming > from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). Yet ANOTHER correction to my first post: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the nonexistence/annihilationist view. > In my case, it pays to read around and ask questions!! (-: In all our cases, I think--it's easy to be misled by (even well-meaning) special pleading, always good to compare sources with the closest we can find to the tipi.taka I think. mike 45587 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Larry > Phil: "there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people > don't really exist in the ultimate sense". > > Hi Phil, > > I agree, but understanding doesn't seem to be something we can give to > others. Compassion, loving kindness, appreciation, and equanimity can be > given freely to all without limit. Try it on the train or in the > street. Even if it only makes the smallest difference, that's something. I didn't word that well. My point was that when we come to have even a shallow intellectual understanding of parattha dhammas and begin to understand that there is nothing but conditioned nama and rupa, there is simply less holding on to stories rooted in self. And therefore fewer obstructions to metta et al arising in daily life, without any need to think about them. And this doesn't mean that we experience people as reduced to nama and rupa. There are still people in our lives, of course, but the baggage is much lighter. And lighter baggage means fewer obstructions to brahma-viharas and other sobhanna cetasikas, I would think. I think of that sutta about the acrobats - how we can help others by helping ourselves. The commentorial notes I read said that this means that by becoming arahants we can provide a profoundly helpful example to others. I would disagree that "helping ourselves" needs to be defined by such a rare accomplishment - I think even shallow understanding can make us lighter, in a sense, and less hamful to others, without the need to try to be or even think about being so. Metta, Phil 45588 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (381) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Like these 4 objects, there are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water There always an object for any citta. Before 1st jhaana can arise, there arise other kusala cittas like mahaakusala cittas. When samatha bhavanaa are being practised on kasinas, there are 3 different objects. The first is initial object, which is a visual object. When this visual object can see very clearly in the mind without opening the eyes again to see the original object, it is said that mental image or uggaha nimitta has arisen. It is pannatti. Next there arise another image at a time and it is counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. It is also pannatti. Pathavi kasina has been talked in the previous post. For tejo kasina, naked fire of any kind can be used as the object of tejo kasina. But for initiation, the preparation for tejo kasina may help. Calm and non-moving visual fire object is better for initiation. Outdoor fire can be created and then initially look at the fire and practise to obtain the mental image. For indoor, large candle can be used and light it and then look at the fire. When mental image arises, there will be some extra material or shade or shape in the mental image like the candle itself, flowing paraffin, insects if there they are, etc etc. When counter image arises, these extra things disappear and there is pure fire of orange- red colour. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45589 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:38am Subject: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 1. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, It is nice to talk to you. You wrote: Dear Htoo, As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you will be keeping in the accumulated lobha and avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccaya. Decisive support condition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you believe 'accumulations'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. 'Yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya satta vassaani tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadi se se anaagaamitaa. Titthantu bhikkhave satta vassaani, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya cha vassaani, panca vassaani, cattaari vassaani, tiini vassaani, dve vassaani, ekam vassam. Titthatu bhikkhave ekam vassam, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satpatthaane evam bhaaveyya satta maasaani, tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadi se se anaagaamitaa. Titthantu bhikkhave satta maasaani, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satpatthaane evam bhaaveyya cha maasaani panca maasaani, cattaari maasaani, tiini maasaani, dve maasaani, ekam maasam, addamaasam..peyyalakam.. Titthantu bhikkhave addamaaso, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya sataaham, tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaati. Titthantu = leave alone, let alone bhikkhave = O! bhikkhus addamaaso = half month koci = someone hi = right yo = that, such ime = these cattaaro = four satipatthane --> mindfulness evam bhaaveyya = 'such cultivating'[*as instructed*] sattaham = 7 full days tassa = that practitioner/s dvinnam = twofold phalaanam = phala naana (fruit) annataram phalam ---> any of fruit ( anagami or arahatta) patikankham = inevitably dittheva = in sight Ekamaasam = 1 month Addamaasam= half month These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As K. Sujin often says, lobha both leads the way and it follows too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Lobha is there as long as there is no panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the work of wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; No. If one cannot follow what The Buddha instructed he will be following the wrong way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma are oceans. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Should. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are ideas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? Unless of course he has extreme wrong view and prefers to believe in such as the `oneness of existence' and `God'. And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. But of course, one does reason before about the method, and besides there must be a degree of right view which attracts us to Buddhism in the first place. However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. Do these teachers even warn us about the difference between concept and reality like you sometimes do Htoo? (Btw, I think you would be the best meditation teacher around, though I personally wouldn't come to you for any instructions. ;-)) But actually it does not matter as far as I am concerned, for the fault lies in the very idea of "doing". Whatever follows after that, new-age Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Samatha/vipassana method, is nothing but a proliferation of wrong view. Having the idea about `doing' and doing it, it does not help after that, to then justify this by bringing in our knowledge of dhammas to explain the process. As I said above, lobha and ditthi will use anything to go on. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccayo. Decisive support condition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted understanding of conditionality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose delusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often accused of taking the easy road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would say that 'all those who do not follow what The Buddha taught but set out their own way of achieving insight without satipatthaana' are all following 'the easy road'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And besides, `Right Effort' arises with other sobhana cetasikas and not any domanasa, isn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Saamiam vaa dukkham vedanam vedayamaano saamisam dukkham vedanam vedayaamiiti pajaanaati. Niraamisam dukkham vedanam vedayamaano niraamisam dukkham vedanam vedayaamiiti pajaanaati'. Dhamma are arising on their own. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So what is the argument? You could say instead that they the meditators, thinking patipatti in stories, picturing themselves doing certain things, likewise project such a story on us. They think that we too think in stories and in their script they imagine us as `fearing the idea' of pain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If only The Buddha's Path is followed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45590 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 9:00am Subject: 21 Sessions of Mahasatipatthana Sutta & 14 sessions on the body htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 21 sessions that The Buddha taught to his disciples bhikkhus are 1. 14 contemplation on the body 2. 1 contemplation on the feeling 3. 1 contemplation on the mind 4. 5 contemplation on the dhamma 14 contemplations on the body 1. contemplation on movements of breathing 2. contemplation on movements of changing and still postures 3. contemplation on part-movements after postures 4. contamplation on disgusting 32 parts of the body 5. contemplation on elements of the body 6. contemplation on days old self-assumed own corpse 7. contemplation on disintegrated self-assumed own corpse 8. contemplation on self-assumed own fleshy-bloody corpse 9.contemplation on self-assumed own fleshless-bloody corpse 10.contemplation on self-assumed own dried tied skeletal corpse 11.contemplation on self-assumed own untied scattered skeletal corpse 12.contemplation on self-assumed own year old white bones corpse 13.contemplation on self-assumed own many years old scatter corpse 14.contemplation on self-assumed own bone dust corpse With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45591 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (382) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements for kasina kammatthana apart from 4 colours. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water Pathavi kasina and tejo kasina have been discussed. When vayo kasina is to be practised, one has to look for the object of movement. Examples are top of some bushes when there is breezely wind. Outdoor object is simple and natual. For indoor object one can create a man-made material like shradded paper or a bush of thread and anything is put at a place and then it is fanned electronically. But it is better to use equipment that would give rise to less noice. Initiall, the object is visual object of moving material. When mental image arises, there is a still copy of that visual image in the mind. All the details are identical with the original visual object even though the real outside visual object may have changed to another forms. But the practitioner can see very clear in his mind as a still picture. When conuter image arises, this mental image disappears and it changes into counter image, which is much much more beautiful than mental image or actual visual image. This is patibhaga nimitta. It is pannatti. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Hasituppada, I found your letter when I came home. I am sorry you suffered so much from pains and I hope you have fully recovered by now. It is difficult to analyse whathappened when it is past already. Now we can only think of it and even that thought is gone immediately. Whatever we think is conditioned and I should remember myself that thinking is only an insignificant naama. But, we are bound to attach such importance to the stories we think of, and I like to be reminded by A. Sujin that I am immediately lost in the ocean of concepts. Your story was a good illustration of kamma and vipaaka, the painful feeling is vipaaka, but we cannot know the real cause: kamma. This shows us again that the Abhidhamma is in us and around us, that it reigns over our lives, although it may not always be known and remembered. The Paticca Samuppaada is also daily life: feeling conditions craving. When there is painful feeling we want to be released from it, we crave for feeling of ease. When you use the word pain you may mean something different from what I understand. I understand: pain is painful feeling, dukkha vedanaa. It accompanies vipaakacitta, thus, it is vipaaka cetasika. It expereinces an unpleasant object. Among the twentyeight kinds of rupa there is no rupa that is pain. Painful feeling can be caused by too much hardness or heat, or pressure, thus, the Elements of Earth, Fire or Wind. These do not know or feel anything. I want to consider your post: op 07-05-2005 03:07 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: Then I see that > the pain is in the mind, even though the problem is with the tooth > in the lower jaw. Both the jaw and the tooth are rupa. -------------- N: What we call jaw are many groups of rupa, and they arise and fall away, they do not stay for a moment. When we think of jaw, we think of a whole, a concept. But the bodybase is infinitesimally tiny, it arises and then falls away immediately. -------------- H: And rupa > cannot feel the pain. It is the mind that feels the pain. But the > pain itself is rupa. --------------- N: See above, I see it as painful feeling conditioned by the impingement of element on element, just for a moment. In between pain there is thinking, or there is seeing, and at such moments there is no pain. But we do not realize this and thus it seems that pain lasts. It is really difficult to directly realize the difference between nama and rupa, this can only be done at the first stage of insight. Only then can we know nama as pure nama, not mixed with rupa. It is at the second stage that there is direct realization of conditions for nama and rupa. I find that I confuse painful feeling that is vipaaka, with unpleasant mental feeling that arises very soon after painful bodily feeling and that accompanies akusala citta rooted in dosa. It is likely to arise, because only the anaagaamii has eradicated dosa. I quote but have to snip: ---------------- H: But I did not want to forget this instance > of easing of pain, by being aware of the pain, not by intellectually > understanding what caused the pain, but experiencing the inter play > between nama-rupa, and cause and effect. -------------- N: Usually once during a trip in India it happens that there is something wrong with the water and this causes unbearable pains. Even when I believe that I do not think and am aware of pain, I still cling to the idea of my pain or my awareness. This comes out when talking with A. Sujin and I find it very useful to make mistakes. I like it to be reminded that I am wrong again! We go wrong again and again. One can learn, it does not distress me. The dividing line between awareness and thinking with subtle lobha is very thin. ----------- H: You say that Abhidhamma helps you to understand the characteristics > of what appears now: any phenomena of our daily life…….. That is > so, but what you don't see is the MIND WITHOUT THE CHARACTERISTIC > OF WHAT HAD APPEARS. > > That is what happens in Bhavana (meditation) when you become aware > of the arising of a thought , that thought passes away and the MIND > is SILENT until the arising of the next thought. ----------- N: But the mind, citta, arises and passes in a flash, and is immediately succeeded by the next one. There never is silence, citta is always traveling from one object to the next object, whether we like it or not. That shows the anattaness, nobody can direct it, even though it *seems* that we can direct it. There is no time to direct it, it has already gone. Also during moments of calm there are different cittas, and some may be with subtle lobha, enjoying calm. Citta always has one object or other. --------------- > H: But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the > instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a > state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from > pain and discomfort. (4am). > > My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed > hoping to catch a little sleep. > > Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, ---------- N: Not at all, such exchanges are useful. I see bhavana differently from you. Mental development also includes considering Dhamma, discussing it, beginning to be aware of what appears right now. I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti, which is far more than just theoretical knowledge. I come back to it, I discussed it with Lodewijk. For bhavana the kusala citta must be accompanied by paññaa and also by alobha, detachment. We have to ask ourselves: do I learn anything? Is there less attachment to the idea of my thinking, my mind, my pain? Any form of bhavana, samatha and vipassana, must lead to detachment. Nina. P.S. I have Yahoo trouble, and if you or anyone else would like to react, please write to the list and also frwd it to my personal address. I copy the messages from the internet, but I may miss some. 45593 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan christine_fo... Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Certainly you can send yourself metta. In fact, all metta meditations > that I have heard of or practiced begin with giving oneself metta and > then directing metta to others starting from those closest to you then > those further and furter away. > > I remember on the first 3 day retreat I went to, it was led by Ven. > Mahinda. He is well known for his well developed metta ability. We > started most of our meditation sessions by doing metta first and then > going on to anapanasati. At one stage, he asked all of us to direct our > metta to him. We did so with our feeble attempts and then he said that > he would direct his meditation towards us. I felt this great wave of > warmth and power emanating from him that I was surprised. 45594 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Reasons for practice matheesha333 Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Anguttara Nikaya » Context of this sutta Anguttara Nikaya V.180 Gavesin Sutta About Gavesin Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering on a tour among the Kosalans with a large community of monks. As he was going along a road, he saw a large sala forest in a certain place. Going down from the road, he went to the sala forest. On reaching it, he plunged into it and at a certain spot, broke into a smile. Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda, "What is the cause, what is the reason, for the Blessed One's breaking into a smile? It's not without purpose that Tathagata's break into smile." So he said to the Blessed One, "What is the cause, what is the reason, for the Blessed One's breaking into a smile? It's not without purpose that Tathagata's break into smile." "In this spot, Ananda, there was once a great city: powerful, prosperous, populous, crowded with people. And on that city, Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened, dwelled dependent. Now, Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened, had a lay follower named Gavesin who didn't practice in full in terms of his virtue. But because of Gavesin, there were 500 people who had been inspired to declare themselves lay followers, and yet who also didn't practice in full in terms of their virtue. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. But I don't practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they don't practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices in full in terms of my virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice in full in terms of his virtue. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice in full in terms of their virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who eats only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. I eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time, just as they eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' "So he went to Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self- awakened, and on arrival said to him, 'Lord, may I receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May I receive the Full Acceptance.' So he received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened; he received the Going Forth. And not long after his admission -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus Gavesin the monk became another one of the Arahants. "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. Having shaven off his hair & beard, having put on the ochre robe, he has gone forth from the home life into homelessness. So why shouldn't we?' "So they went to Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self- awakened, and on arrival said to him, 'Lord, may we receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May we receive the Full Acceptance.' So they received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened; they received the Going Forth. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the monk: 'I obtain at will -- without difficulty, without hardship -- this unexcelled bliss of release. O, that these 500 monks may obtain at will -- without difficulty, without hardship -- this unexcelled bliss of release!' Then those 500 monks -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for themselves in the here & now. They knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus did those 500 monks -- headed by Gavesin, striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined -- realize unexcelled release. "So, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'Striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined, we will realize unexcelled release.' That's how you should train yourselves." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-180.html 45595 From: connie Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:46pm Subject: musing? nichiconn Hi, Sarah, Isn't there a colored-string with cats-eye(?) beads... I'll look about. But I love lightning things. Like the white pony glimpsed thru the crack in the fence then as our fleeting lifespan... one of Nichiren's images I like but can't quite quote. KAboom wasn't thunder, but might've been an echo of Nina's oven-dvara or just a spark of anger that blew about the room, splattering like black paint smouldered spaces that do not peel off the walls the way the curtain melt did from windowpanes and frames but yeah, seems there were lots of cobwebs everywhere that we just never saw before the fire. And yes, the warranty covered Dinah's keyboard. Can't blame the dog for not being in any hurry to go back. No immediate hope of my clearly comprehending the things of daily life as they really are - nothing special, just nama-rupa or namati & phassa - but looking forward to your picture of Htoo, now (imagined as) fingers at the keyboard (skillfully "tik-tak-tik-tak"-ing) amongst other net voices around Howard's Tree, where I'd stared at this cartoon image of a shark's mouth until an air horn pulled me into the carpool tunnel as you were rushin'off and I decided the little kamma-kazi parasite should go in 2SigOth. The Ven. Sumangalo's "Buddhist Sunday School Lessons" do not have my full approval, so I'm looking for James, Phil and some others to write more for (Star)Kids. ;) Samphappalaapa - talking nonsense, or stringballs. :( Dispeller should be read in front of Vibhanga proper. Is Expositor like that? Uhm, recall? Mostly about ME being sick and wondering what possible nutritive essence could've been present in my brain, hoping for the best. Snot, <>, but not nimitta, is in the Index of Words and Subjects. If memory serves, the yogi will only lay hold of the snot object in the nostrils, no imagining it turning to moss in the lungs or gagging when Jozai would lick the junk up off the ground after I'd thought puke or spit. << 1144. Herein, the appearance of the head-hairs, etc. as to colour, shape, direction, location and delimitation is the acquired sign (uggahanimitta); their appearance as repulsive in all aspects is the counterpart sign (pa.tibhaaganimitta). >> Nimitta. Another of the mulabhaasaa's non-translating words? On that walking word, apaabaadho: abaadha (adj) w/out any hindrance; aabaadha (m) disease; affliction. What about postures? Is there crookedness of body, speech & mind? To be straight and inclined rightly thus: towards peace. connie 45596 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Leading others to practice matheesha333 The Buddha used skilful means to lead other to practice. He understood the mind of the putajjana and how to rouse it. If it had happened now, all hell would have broken loose.. ------------------ On the third day of the Buddha's visit to Kapilavatthu, after the Enlightenment, the Buddha went to Nanda's house, where festivities were in progress in honour of Nanda's coronation and marriage to Janapadakalyání Nandá. The Buddha wished Nanda good fortune and handed him his bowl to be taken to the vihára. Nanda, thereupon, accompanied the Buddha out of the palace. Janapadakalyání, seeing him go, asked him to return quickly. Once inside the vihára, however, the Buddha asked Nanda to become a monk, and he, unable to refuse the request, agreed with reluctance. But as the days passed he was tormented with thoughts of his beloved, and became very downcast and despondent, and his health suffered. The Buddha suggested that they should visit the Himálaya. On the way there, he showed Nanda the charred remains of a female monkey and asked him whether Janapadakalyání were more beautiful than that. The answer was in the affirmative. The Buddha then took him to Távatimsa where Sakka, with his most beautiful nymphs, waited on them. In answer to a question by the Buddha, Nanda admitted that these nymphs were far more attractive than Janapadakalyání, and the Buddha promised him one as wife if he would live the monastic life. Nanda was all eagerness and readily agreed. On their return to Jetavana the Buddha related this story to the eighty chief disciples, and when they questioned Nanda, he felt greatly ashamed of his lustfulness. Summoning all his courage, he strove hard and, in no long time, attained arahantship. He thereupon came to the Buddha and absolved him from his promise. (Thag.157f.; J.i.91; ii.92ff.; Ud.iii.2; DhA.i.96 105; UdA.168ff.; SNA.273f.) ----------------- The dhamma is like a snake. metta Matheesha 45597 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma matheesha333 Hi Sukinder, I will adress you. We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and treat each other with respect. I have nothing to prove to anyone. Nor will I try to get you to take on my views. If you are happy with that, Im happy to discuss the dhamma with you in mutual curiosity, not forgetting that there are humans behind the words on screen. If you dont wish to discuss; if youre happy with what you know, that's also just fine. metta, Matheesha 45598 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. dacostacharles Hi Tep, .... Very good question; I can't wait to read the answers. And, yes, to be my usual difficult self, I have a theory. I call it the "Multi-dimensional Hypothesis of Existence." It basically states that existence occurs in layers spanning several dimensions (sphere or plane of existence), and each layer/dimension appears as existence in it-self though they effect each other. For example: In Dimension "X" you will find a strange space/emptiness; though there appears to be no-boundaries, there is activity/movement. The Chinese believe it can not be labeled or named descriptively because it transcends thought / beyond comprehension; however we shall call it Wu. In Dimension "Alpha" you will find something and nothing giving birth to each other. We shall call it Wu Chi. In Dimension "1" you will find elemental stuff that can and often do interact. We shall call it the Plane of Wu Xing and Bagua or the Plane of Elemental interactions. In Dimension "Q" you will find thoughts/mind streams that can, and often do interact, as well as give rise to each other. We shall call it the Plane of Mind. In Dimension "T" you will find people and things that can, and often do, interact and give rise to each other. We shall call it the Plane of Things. From a Buddhist perspective, life in samsara exist in Dimension "T", Plane of Things. Liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others. Beyond the Dimension "Q" there can be no I, you, me, or it. However, when the elements of feelings come together in the Plane of Elemental interactions, the effects can be experienced in the Plane of Mind, and thus in the Plane of Things. I know this is a little off but I am having fun. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 08 May, 2005 20:04 Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. Hi Howard and Larry - Okay, Howard. You say that there is no firebrand, no circle of fire, no movement -- only a stream (flow) of experience. What you said is at the micro-level of description; it is a perception straight from a learned theory; it is your own mental fabraication of concepts. The same as when you say our bodies are 99% emptiness -- there are only molecules: there is no being, no Howard; there is only a space of nothing except for electrons and sub-particles floating far apart. At that micro-level everything breaks down into almost nothingness - who can call the totality of electrons, sub-particles and emptiness a being? There is no self either. But this is not Paramattha dhamma -- it is Physics. How does that kind of thinking conditions samma-ditthi? Respectfully, Tep ===== 45599 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... dacostacharles Hi all, This discussion reminds me of a time when a monk asked his teacher, after seeing a finger get crushed, if you have the right view and understanding, is pain due to such an injury never experienced? I really don't remember the teachers reply, but I could imagine that he would have said, it was a relative question. However, pain may be experienced, and due to the right concentration (also) it may not be experience as pain nor lead to suffering. CharlesD PS: How can one use such extreme (i.e., far from the conventional) views of reality? Does one have to stop living? or How does one live in this unconventional reality? ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 07 May, 2005 07:49 Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/6/05 11:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" and "realities". Let me list some highlights of your explanation: -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on those phenomena that actually do occur". -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc." -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur", they are "real". ...