46000 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! buddhistmedi... Hi Charles {Attn.: Htoo, Sarah } - I have a thought while reading your remarks on Anatta (from Anattalakkhana Sutta, SN XXII.59). CharlesD : The problem with this suttra, and most like it, is that it assumes that if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being. Those that believe in a soul do not believe the soul has such, they tend to view the soul the same way that some Buddhist view re-birth-consciousness. Tep: I am not so sure that the Buddha said in SN XXII.59 that "if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being", Charles. This is what He said about the form (rupa): "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' " The same Truth applies to the other 4 aggregates within the pancakkhandha. Sincerely yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Tep and Htoo, > (snipped) > I am bring up these points because we need to be careful when declaring the truth of a doctrine. If I believe the soul to be one of the above definitions, the only thing you could have claimed was I had the wrong concept (i.e., name) or the wrong definition of a soul. The above definitions (except the word "spiritual") are acceptable concepts, or realities (if you prefer), to most Buddhist. > > > CharlesD > > 46001 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Desirable object - not important? gazita2002 Hello Nina and Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > op 24-05-2005 02:27 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: ....snip...... > Ph: I *think* that feeling is more likely > > to appear to my ignorant mind than other dhammas.. > > We often hear that understanding nama from rupa is the "first > > stage of tender insight" (to quote you) - feeling can be an object > > that can help us here because it is hard for me to distinguish > > mental feeling from body feeling at times. > ----------- > N: As you mention, it is difficult to know feeling before the first stage of > insight. Of course, bodily feeling is an extremely short moment of vipaaka, > arising with body-consciousness. Azita: i find this hard to grasp - this 'short moment'. intellectually, I believe it but... when there is painful bodily feeling, it seems to go on for a long time. I guess it means there are many 'short moments' following on from each other, conditioning the next moment. Its usually 'my pain' and we cling to that? Feeling accompanying akusala cittas that > think about vipaaka arise so soon after that. > Mental feeling also conditions bodily phenomena, thus, there is no end to > the tangle. Azita: your comment above kind of explains what I'm talking about. > We are bound to take feelings for self, we find them very important. > > I think it is helpful not to have any idea about which phenomenon can help > us more than others. Then it seems that there is a preference, a selection. > As Kh Sujin said about breath: for paññaa? Who knows the next moment. Breath is like that.> > I read to Lodewijk Jon's words: generosity, in the end they all have to be known.> > Lodewijk found that most helpful. > Nina. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 46002 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: Anyone can join and enjoy rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, We had a discussion about this a few years ago on DSG. As I remember it the Netti does say that it is better to have tanha for nibbana than to have tanha for say woman. The commentary explains that all tanha is akusala but some is not as bad as others.. We can see that almost all Buddhists have so much desire for quick knowledge, it is inevitable that it is like this in the beginning because tanha is all that wordlings know, it is conditioned to arise. Tanha can never show us the right way, but it could be a condition to study Dhamma texts: and so we can see how akusala can be a suporting condition for kusala to arise. My opinion though is that unless tanha is seen (early on) as been aksuala, that most people will try top develop the path with tanha and avijja - and that is impossible. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Robert K, > > Could you please check these statements of Robert Morrison's 'Three > Cheers of Tanha'. > > quote: > > ''[32] Using this model, we can therefore fill out the statement 'he > abandons ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa': ta.nhaa, whose aims and > objects are within sa.msaara, is to be abandoned by > developing 'appropriate' [tajja] ta.nhaa, which is a form of ta.nhaa > that can become 'appeased' as its aim is Arahantship. But what form > would this appropriate ta.nhaa take? Although there are no such terms > in the suttas as 'thirsting after Arahantship' (arahatta-ta.nhaa), > or 'thirsting after the Dhamma' (dhamma-ta.nhaa),[33] the notion that > ta.nhaa can have Arahantship as its aim is found in the post- > canonical Nettippakara.na:[34]'' > > What do you think? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 46003 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Tep, Htoo, Larry (and Nina and Azita from other thread) and all > > Phil : Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we stop proliferating, brought > back by a moment of mindfulness of feeling? > > Tep: I believe that sati alone is enough to stop the flow, but sati doesn't > cut off the flow of a feeling or any defilement that accompanies it. Panna > can. "Truth of the path" can cause cessation of vedana, according to > SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta. Feelings cease in Nibbana. > > "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his > mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] > knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of > feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, > such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] > Ph: Thanks all for your feedback. Typically, I won't press too hard to figure this out. Today I was walking in the park, and because the wweather is nice and the rainy season is coming there are groups of kids *everywhere* having sports meetings etc in the park, where I had gone to get away from the infernal racket from the school next door. (Loudspeaker blaring out songs that the kids dance along to - really looks and sounds like North Korea) So a lot of dosa today because of my lobha for peace and quiet - and because it gives me the creeps to see kids dancing in choreographed groups. I was aware of the dosa, the unpleasant mental feeling and reflected on it again and again and there was a stopping of proliferating again and again. Or was there? I don't know. I'm talking about an extremely shallow degree of sati here. I have no idea what's going on with my citta flow, really. By chance this morning, I found in Bhikkhu Bodhi's intro to the Vedanasamyutta a description of what sounds a bit like what I was trying to figure out: "Feeling is a key link in the chain of dependent origination, the immediate precursor of craving, and thus to break the chain requires that our defiled responses to feeling be overcome. (snip) The Buddha's system of mental training aims at controlling our reactions to these feelings at the very point where they arise, without allowing them to proliferate and call their correspondng tendencies into play." Of course we're talking here about a more advanced insight than I have "access" to, if you will (where have I heard that before? access to insight...might be a good title for a pop Buddhist bestseller! Hmmmm) so I won't think too much about it - for now. I can see that to think that a worldling could cut the link at feeling would be a mistake, certainly. Metta, Phil 46004 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah - > > T: Now you are trying to persuade me to think along the line of Ajahn > Sujin's application of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. Sincerely, I > have a deep admiration of her skillful thoughts which are conditioned > by decades of intensive study of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what the > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? I am trying to discover more about this elusive woman. ;-) BTW, I like your response and it is very diplomatic. We should focus on what the Buddha taught, not on what anyone else teaches (or at least differentiate the sources). Otherwise, it just gets very confusing. Metta, James ps. Phil, if you are reading, I will get to your posts later. Running off to school now. ;-) 46005 From: "Eznir" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:52pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma eznir2003 Dear Sukin, Refer message 45585 by Sukin Why be mindful of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and avijja? Sukin: As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. .......................... "As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the unaccumulated alobha and vijja. Alobha will not attach to and proliferate on all signs even if they be not a glimpse of understanding. Since there was accumulated panna, we have been interested in the Buddha's words. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite non-accumulated alobha, amoha and also samma ditthi." Here Sukin, I have tried to re-word the essence of what you say in the opposite sense as faithfully as I could. I think you will agree that if what you did say here is possible, then what you did *not* say here is also equally possible, under any circumstances - which is the present moment. The difference between the two is that they are exactly opposite in sense and neither has *happened* in the present moment, that you are faced with, as yet. Now you may ask, "How do you keep the unaccumulated alobha and vijja in mind?" And I will ask in reply, "How do you keep the accumulated lobha and avijja in mind?" You would reply, "By listening to the Dhamma from a wise person (or reading)". Then I would ask, "Does he only speak of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and vijja?" and this conversation would go on. We as human beings generally seek happiness and not suffering, the Tatagatha is also known as the well-farer. This happiness or suffering is in the present moment and depends on how we pay *attention* to it. The way to do just *this* - attention to the present moment - is varied. Nevertheless none of us would approach this present moment with a *clean sheet*, except the Arahants who can continuously be in the sati-sampajanna mode if they want to. All those below an Arahant, even an Anagami, would have their *sheets* soiled somewhat. The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. ............................ I agree. And this person will present the Dhamma in such a way that one is inspired, aroused, propelled and delighted listening to the Dhamma. Sukin: This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. This friend would not only point out the tendencies of lobha that lead us to the wrong way but would also point out the skills needed to pick the right way! This is where his instructions come in. One would be inspired to follow his instruction without delay since one gets delighted just by listening to him present the Dhamma, because he has aroused those sankharas within one long since forgotten, those skills acquired by us in our long trek in sansara no cdoubt! One should note that feelings, perception, intention, contact, attention, effort, applied and sustained thought, are some of the cetasikas common to both wholesome *and* unwholesome states, ie in all types of consciousness we experience at any given moment, except in the rupavacara and arupavacara consciousness (other than the first jhana) and in the cessation of perception and feeling, where only the life principle together with heat is present. Therefore whether the need of the present moment is to rob a bank or to attain the cessation of perception and feeling, these very same cetasikas have to be used skillfully following the instructions of a teacher who is experienced in these matters. In all these you might still contend that a self is doing these things, but is there a self? Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? ................................. A good teacher would ask the students to keep the 5 precepts which is something to be done, isn't it? Or do you say that it is the 'self' here seeking something through the 5 precepts? Ok, let's say it is the self who is seeking. Then would this thing he is seeking *by keeping the 5 precepts*, lead towards less suffering or more suffering? I'm sure you must be knowing Abhidhamma very well where ones experience is broken down into elements and also considers the various aspects of an experience. Tell me where in Abhidhamma does it speak of a self? None. Then what is this self that you highlight here? Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and instruct accordingly! It's like training the mind of a child to do things that he would not comprehend, but would appreciate their importance when he grows up. You will observe here that the child needs to *do* those things if he is to get enlightened! And his enlightenment is a result of having done the right things at the right time - a matter of cause and conditionality - and has nothing to do with self. Which the child did not know at the time he was following the instruction of his parents *when he was a child*. Thus a child outgrows his childness and becomes an adult. In much the same way a Puthujjana would outgrow his 'puthujjana-ness' and become a sotapatti. In the case of the child he acquires right experience with right view at the right time and becomes a 'good' adult. In the puthujjana he eradictes 'wrong experience' with right view at the right time and becomes a sotapatti. The rightness of the view in both cases is relative, in one it is to become a good adult- anuloma, the other to become an Arahant hence patisotagami though he is not an Arahant as yet and not patiloma as such but retardation has started and he has still things to do (refer Kitagiri Sutta 70 in MN) Sukin: Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? .............................................. The craving that you refer to here can also be dhammachanda or rightful wish which is skillful, except this 'craving' is different to the craving to other things that are unwholesome, could this not be so? It can be verified as to which kind of craving it is by reflection. There is no self involved here, it is just a matter of cause and conditionality as in the case of 'the child'. What you are, whether a child or adult, puthujjana or sotapatti depends on ones determinations/intentions - sankharas, which is either acquired or eradicated. Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? .......................................... And when the teacher reminds the student about what indeed he experienced in the moment, and thus when the student understands this according to his 'accumulated panna', isn't this 'purposeful observation' on the part of the student guided by the more experienced teacher? Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? ............................................ Some Dhammas are impossible to understand intellectually and these others that you state here can be known. But how is a thing 'known' really in a mundane sense? Doesn't this knowing imply a self? When a thing is 'known' in the supramundane sense does it imply a self? If not, what is the difference in these two 'knowings'? Sukin: And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! .......................................................... Isn't it Saddha when you follow your teacher by doing this and that as he says and eventually find your self confidence increasing together with the confidence in your teacher! Would this be pointing to a self? Note here that the 'self' in 'self confidence' is not the usual rendering of the word. Sukin: But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. .......................................................... This may be partly true. But I wouldn't put all the teachers into this basket. There are those who say things with a reason behind, knowing the character of the student. But when you say, "This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko." it is not right on the part of those teachers who are true. Sukin: However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. ........................................................... "However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately", how do you come to this conclusion? No doubt during our long trek in sansara we would have accumulated so much of 'wrong view'. Nevertheless, if we are resigned to and are mindful of only this notion, 'right view' will never get an opportunity to arise! Sukin: I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. ........................................................ The scenario given here is only possible between a mis-guided teacher and a foolish student. If the teacher was genuine then the student has misunderstood the teacher or if the students were intelligent they should be able to see through the teachers ignorance. The suttas give guidlines on how to gauge a good teacher (refer Vimamsaka Sutta 47 in MN) Sukin: But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. ........................................ This is why a genuine teacher's guidance is needed to see that the student is not misled. Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas,...... ............................... There is no one to control the Dhammas, *even in a Puthujjana*. It is only certain akusala dhammas that led to the propogation of kamma in a Puthujjana as did the kusala dhammas that led to the eradication of kamma in an Arahat. In both cases there was no self involved! Sukin: .....one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ................................................ By purposeful observation! Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing,..... .................................................. I wonder how one pays attention to the present moment without being purposeful! As you said earlier on, there are dhammmas arising all the time. These dhammas do not arise without consciousness as a support. And where there is consciousness there is intention or purpose, the intended purpose for consciousness to *be*! And in that moment, to the skillful, the dhammas are to be seen with the eye of wisdom - paccattam vedi tabbo vinnuhi! Metta, eznir 46006 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 10:54pm Subject: There is a being only when there are clinging aggregates (was Re: Anatta) philofillet Hi all Trolling around at random in past posts, came across this one of James on the khandas, and what the clinging aggregates imply. I think it's very interesting - I hadn't come across the "there is a being only when there are clinging aggregates" idea - so I thought I'd pass it on. Metta, Phil p.s Choosing a post by James to read reminded me of the old days when I used to look forward to reading his posts to see just how excitingly obnoxious he would be! Sigh...it seems those days are gone - until tomorrow, at least. (haha) > Victor: I suggested you refer to the Satta Sutta regarding to what > extent is one said to be a 'being' and noted that the Buddha did not > say that a being is made up of the five aggregate. > > James: Yes and no. Actually, he said that a being is made up of the > five `clinging' aggregates. The aggregates just on their own, or > even together, don't make a being; however, when there is clinging to > the five aggregates: form, perception, feeling, mental fabrications, > and consciousness, then there is a being: > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one > is caught up (satta) there, tied up (visatta) there, one is said to > be 'a being (satta).' > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... > perception... fabrications... > "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: > when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a > being.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn23-002.html > > The important thing to consider is that desire, passion, delight, and > craving for the five aggregates is makes a being. Therefore, it is > the craving mind that makes a being, not the aggregates themselves. > > The craving mind is what pulls the aggregates together. In this > sutta, the Buddha even draws the analogy of a `being' being like a > sand castle built by children. When they delight in it and play in > it, the being is present. When they grow tired of it and no longer > delight in it, and smash it, the being is gone. Of course this > supposes an interesting metaphysical question as to who > the `children' are supposed to represent, but I don't think that is > important to consider too deeply. Maybe this metaphor shouldn't be > taken that literally. > > I think it is important to realize that the five aggregates are not > really `parts' of a being, but simply a method of analysis created by > the Buddha for the purpose of release. The five aggregates are an > ever-constant process and they cannot be separated from each other, > therefore they are not `parts'. (I know there is that `chariot' > metaphor, with its parts, but I don't believe it is to be taken > literally?Ef it was, the Buddha would have used such a description, > but he didn't). The important thing is to understand that it is the > clinging mind that creates a being and thus creates suffering. > > Metta, James 46007 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:05am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 202 - Zeal/chanda (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda arises with the eight types of lobha-múla-citta. When chanda arises with lobha-múla-citta it searches for the desirable object, it needs that object. Although chanda is different from lobha which can only be of the jåti which is akusala, when they arise together it is hard to distinguish between them. When we like to obtain a pleasant object, lobha is attached and it is chanda which can accomplish the obtaining of that desired object. Lobha could not accomplish anything by itself. However, also when we do not need to obtain an object we are attached to, there is chanda accompanying the lobha-múla-citta. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46008 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] question on seeking permission from parents sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a monk > A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either one will > do .... S: I have always read parents' permission (in the plural). 1. Mahavagga 1 In response to Suddhodana's plea: ".....Then the Lord on this occasion, in this connection, having given reasoned talk, addressed the monks, saying: "Monks, a child who has not his parents' consent should not be let go forth. Whoever should let (one such) go forth, there is an offence of wrong-doing." ***** 2. Suttavibhanga, Expiation (Paacittiya) LXXX In response to the nun Thullanandaa ordaining 'a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband' "The enlightened one, the lord, rebuked them, saying: 'How, monks, can the nun Thullanandaa ordain a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband? It is not, monks, for pleasing those who are not (yet) pleased....this rule of training: *Whatever nun should ordain a probationer without the consent of the parents and husband, there is an offence of expiation'* (footnote - the 22nd of the 24 questions to be put to a nun at her ordination was whether she had her parents' and husband's consent, Vinii 271). Note: the offence here is 'for the group and for the woman teacher'. "There is no offence if she ordains her not knowing; if she ordains her, (she) having obtained permission; if she is mad, if she is the first wrong-doer." .... > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in the > family. If the family has a few children, then as long as there are > some children not ordained, one of them who wished to be obtained, > dont need the parent permission. I said I have to checked, I really > dont know about this point as I only know one needs parents' > permisson. .... S: It's true that Rahula was an only child and there are other references to the grief on account of an only child going forth (eg the story of Sudinna in Suttavibhanga), but I don't see any exceptions when it comes to the rules with regard to large families. Hope this helps. Perhaps Ven Dhammanando or others may add more as Htoo suggested. Metta, Sarah ======== 46009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] nilovg Hi James, Rob K had Part of her Book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas separately printed as Realities and Concepts. A small booklet. If you give me your postal address in Cairo I can send it, no problem. It is also available on Rob's web or on Zolag. But the material is not suitable to read quickly on the net. It should be read a little at a time. That is why I always prefer books. Nina. op 25-05-2005 05:33 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views > on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? I am trying to discover > more about this elusive woman. ;-) 46010 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I continue with our discussion: ======================= > Htoo: > The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or she > will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will > attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she > follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if > one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half > month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 > days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents of > defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. > > 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general > statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or > 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for > average person and it is for most frequencies. > > There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at > such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. Sukin: I have been disinclined to find out what this Gaussian Bell is all about. I do not see any relationship between the findings of science and mathematics with Dhamma. But you seem to be so in this particular case, so I wonder if you are not to some extent projecting significance on to these figures which may not be there? I personally think that this figure of 7 years, 7 days and so on is only symbolic. And that it signifies a relatively short period of time in which, were the conditions right for patipatti to arise regularly, then that person would reach the goal. What is your idea of the "average person" here? What in terms of parami and accumulated wisdom is your `average man', and is he also Bahussuta? How do you know that you and I are in this average? Is it helpful to think this way? Does it condition samvega and saddha or does it arouse ambition and wrong understanding? I think our attention should instead be, on understanding as much as we can, and not to overreach and try to imitate or otherwise to justify what we believe in. Metta, Sukinder 46011 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion: =========================== > S=> > Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you > are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various > teachers of meditation > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here you are completely and totally wrong. I have already given you > examples. The examples are Kondanna, Santati, Pataacaaraa and also Ananda. > Did I suggest you any 'practice' as you quoted. I have just been > talking on mahasatipatthaana and 14 contemplation on the body, 1 > contemplation on the feeling, 1 contemplation on the mind, 5 > contemplations on the dhamma that arise. Sukinder: If I am wrong, then very good, I'll be very happy. But you do take Satipatthana Sutta to mean deliberate `doing' don't you? And you have shown your admiration for some meditation teachers, for example Mahasi Sayadaw haven't you? Both of us believe in and greatly value the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. But your interpretation is such that this is a `manual for practice' and you go about trying to follow it. Whereas I see it more as a reminder about what the correct attention to experiences is, such that one of the results might be a reminder about `wrong patipatti' that would otherwise naturally arise and proliferated were there not the right pariyatti to keep in check. ;-) =============================== > Sukin continued: > and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I see. O! I see. You are just talking on 'a momentary arising of sati > and panna'. Sukinder: Is this the first time you heard this? =============================== > Htoo: > So you will be driving your children to the school and you are > developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are driving, reading > these messages, you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when > you are relaxedly doing daily acitvities like watching news, talking > news to friends, discussing discussion points with friends and > momentarily developing sati and panna. Sukinder: So you like to visualize and come to a conclusion about what might be going on in the mind of another person? ;-) Let's just say that I am not troubled by any lack of sati. What I do value is that, if and when there is a reminder regarding dhamma, that I should have the *correct view* about it. I am happy with `right intellectual understanding', including the fact that I am not following any `wrong practice'. Akusala is akusala, it is easy to recognize it, at least intellectually. Why be so concerned about it to the point that one then looses sight of the right view? =============================== Htoo: > I see. I see. > > You never sit because it is conventional and it may cause you > reaching on the wrong path? Sukinder: No, having the `idea' itself is start of the wrong path. ============================== Htoo: > Sukin continued: > not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, > place or activity. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I just see these as 'words'. There are 'words' like 'sati and panna, > accumulation, no control'. > > But I do not think 'a momentary sati' and 'momentary panna' is enough > to understand The Buddha teachings. Sukinder: No, it is far from enough. But the point is if it is not, then what is the correct attitude towards this fact? Is it one that then conditions `doing'? Or can one have the right pariyatti in relation to this very fact, which may then point to the need for other conditions to be developed, like hearing and considering more? This of course, does not imply not seeing the importance of developing satipatthana, mind you. Only perhaps knowing this intellectually may be the best that could be had for the moment. ;-) ============================= Htoo: > Because just in 'a blink' there have been 1,000,000,000,000 > consciousness happened. So in a second there will be more and in a > minute there are more and more moments. Sukinder: It doesn't matter how many moments of Right View arise, there is no control over conditions. It is however less harmful to have other forms of akusala arising in greater number, than to have heard the Dhamma and understood it in a way that one is then lead to a wrong conclusion about theory and practice. When one is `convinced' about the wrong being right, then this is unfortunate. Metta, Sukinder. Ps: The statement by Robert K, which I suggested that you misunderstood, is from your post titled, "Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha". Here is part of it, <> I got the impression that you thought that this is a linear process involving pariyatti to a certain point after which patipatti will then start to develop. Such thinking could lead to an "obsession" with study, but this is not so. Pariyatti cannot develop without patipatti arising too. If I misinterpreted you, then I am wrong, and we can just drop this topic. 46012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:46am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi James and Nina - Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the following Website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and other writings of Ajahn Sujin. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Could you refer me to any Internet sources concerning K. Sujin's views > on anatta and how it is anti-concept based? 46013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:53am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, try walking meditation. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Htoo, Larry (and Nina and Azita from other thread) and all > (snipped) > > Ph: Thanks all for your feedback. Typically, I won't press too > hard to figure this out. Today I was walking in the park, and > because the wweather is nice and the rainy season is coming there > are groups of kids *everywhere* having sports meetings etc in the > park, where I had gone to get away from the infernal racket from the > school next door. (Loudspeaker blaring out songs that the kids dance > along to - really looks and sounds like North Korea) So a lot of > dosa today because of my lobha for peace and quiet - and because it > gives me the creeps to see kids dancing in choreographed groups. > > I was aware of the dosa, the unpleasant mental feeling and > reflected on it again and again and there was a stopping of > proliferating again and again. Or was there? I don't know. I'm > talking about an extremely shallow degree of sati here. I have no > idea what's going on with my citta flow, really. 46014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, op 24-05-2005 20:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: N: Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible > for us to live in the world. >> So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by > ahirika, >> shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of > akusala. They are >> unknown. > > Ph: I don't quite understand here, Nina.... When I think of samalobha I usually think > either of Rob K's ice cream or your reaching out to the hot water > tap when in the bath. Harmless but inevitable for worldlings. N: I was actually thinking aloud about ahirika and anottappa, being impressed by the reminder they give. Larry had just posted this part. I was meditating on it! Enjoy your icecream, but also, we can realize that there are ahirika and anottappa, that we do not see the disadvantage of akusala. I would not call any degree, even a weak degree of akusala, harmless. Natural yes, but not harmless. Sama lobha is different from visama lobha in as far as we do not harm others by sama lobha, but all the same it is accumulated. But understanding of all degrees can be developed. That keeps the balance in our life: not being lax and on the other hand, not being insincere and unnatural, in trying not to enjoy pleasant objects. It is another matter to think that lobha is good for our social life, but I do not think you meant that. ---------- Ph: If we didn't have it, it would be unnatural. That's what I meant by "makes > it possible..." > Are you warning against being complacent about samalobha? -------- N: I needn't warn you, I think you understand the Middle Way. In between enjoying icecream, there can be also be moments of understanding of different realities. We can learn! We are in the procees of learning. Therefore, we need all the reminders and all the help we can get hold of. The monk who is not an anagami still has attachment to icecream. But he has to review food that is given to him with wise reflection. In our situation we can apply this: by developing understanding of nama and rupa also when eating. Difficult, but we can learn, without forcing ourselves. Then there are hiri and ottappa instead of ahirika and anottappa. This is one of the four parisuddhi siilas (morality consisting in purity), paccaya sannissita siila. The others are: the Patimokkha restraint, guarding the sense-doors, and purity in livelihood. ****** Now I want to add something that does not refer to your mail, I am thinking aloud again! It refers to sila, samadhi and paññaa. The four parisuddhi siilas brought me to this elaboration. We see that the four parisuddhi siilas can be accompanied by paññaa. Especially guarding the sense doors. The Buddha taught Vinaya, but it is implied that it should go together with satipatthana. We read many times in the mahaapirinibbaana sutta: when siila is developed, it leads to concentration, when concentration is developed it leads to paññaa. I looked at the Co in Pali (this is clearer than the English I have) and saw under siila: these four siilas I mentioned. As to concentration, samaadhi, this is not without paññaa. The concentration, samaadhi, of the eightfold Path are mindfulness and concentration and these should be accompanied by paññaa. Never without it. As you know, there are the siila, the samaadhi and the paññaa of the eightfold Path. The Paññaa includes right view and right thinking, vitakka cetasika, that hits the object so that paññaa can understand it. Samaadhi when fully developed is, according to the Co. , samaadhi accompanying magga-citta and phalacitta. Samaadhi when fully developed leads to understanding, and this is understanding accompanying magga-citta and phala-citta. Here we see that they are intertwined. They both accompany path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness. This helps me to understand texts about concentration in the suttas, we have to add: also sati! Concentration is not mere focussing, it is sati and concentration which are together the concentration of the eightfold Path. And never without understanding. When there is mindfulness of a nama or rupa, sati is non-forgetful and one-pointedness or samaadhi performs its function of focussing on one object, just for a moment. It is momentary concentration, khanika samaadhi. The factors are developed together, through satipatthana. Nina 46015 From: nina Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 160 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 160. Shamelessness, ahirika, and recklessness, anottappa. Intro: In this text ahirika is translated as consciencelessness and anottappa as shamelessness. In other translations ahirika is rendered as shamelessness and anottappa as recklessness. It is advisable to use the Pali next to the English terms. Ahirika and anottappa are akusala cetasikas that accompany each akusala citta. Whenever akusala citta arises these two akusala cetasikas perform their functions, they do not draw back from evil. Ahirika is not ashamed of akusala, it does not see its ugliness and impurity, and anottappa does not see the danger of akusala and does not fear its consequences. Ahirika and anottappa are the opposites of hiri and ottappa which accompany each sobhana citta. ******* Text Vis.: Herein, (xxxvii) it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is 'consciencelessness' (ahirika). (xxxviii) It is unashamed, thus it is 'shamelessness' (anottappa). Of these, 'consciencelessness' (ahirika) has the characteristic of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the characteristic of immodesty. 'Shamelessness' (anottappa) has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of absence of anxiety about them. This is in brief here. The detail, however, is the opposite of what was said above under conscience (xi)and shame (xii). N: The Tiika refers to what was said about shame, hiri, and fear of blame, ottappa (Vis. XIV, 142) in its explanation of the functions, manifestations and proximate causes. Ahirika and anottappa are the opposites of hiri and ottappa. The Tiika states: Shamelessness has the function of doing evil and that in the mode of immmodesty (alajjaa), whereas fear of blame has the function of doing it and that in the mode of fearlessness (anuttaasaa). They are manifested as not shrinking (asa²nkocana) from evil in the way already stated. Their proximate causes are lack of self-respect and lack of respect for others [respectively]. N: According to the Tiika, ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilements; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottappa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself. For a detailed explanation the Tiika refers to what was said about their opposites. As we have seen, the proximate cause of shame, hiri, is selfrespect; it has a subjective origin, and oneself is the predominant influence. It arises when one considers one¹s birth and education, one¹s age, courage and strength and wide experience. When there is shamelessness, one does not consider these things. One behaves like a fool or a weakling, not according to the Dhamma one studied. The proximate cause of ottappa is respect for others, it has an external origin and the world is the predominant influence. When there is lack of fear of blame, one has no respect for others and one does not think of the consequences of evil. ****** Conclusion: The study of ahirika and anottappa can remind us of the danger of being careless with regard to akusala. Akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, and thus, there are countless moments of ahirika and anottappa, but we do not notice them. When we are enjoying ourselves, we do not want to see the disadvantages of akusala. At such moments ahirika and anottappa perform their functions, so that the ugliness and danger of akusala is not seen. When we are attached to pleasant things we accumulate more lobha and thus, it will arise again. It can motivate evil deeds which bring an unpleasant result in the form of an unhappy rebirth or unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of life. When we are not thinking of daana, siila or mental development, we are thinking with akusala cittas, and at such moments ahirika and anottappa perform their functions. So long as all akusala has not been eradicated ahirika and anottappa are bound to arise, countless times. Only the arahat has eradicated all akusala and thus, for him there are no more ahirika and anottappa. **** Nina. 46016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Desirable object - not important? nilovg Hi Azita, op 25-05-2005 01:25 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: ----------- >> N: As you mention, it is difficult to know feeling before the first > stage of >> insight. Of course, bodily feeling is an extremely short moment of > vipaaka, >> arising with body-consciousness. > > Azita: i find this hard to grasp - this 'short moment'. > intellectually, I believe it but... when there is painful bodily > feeling, it seems to go on for a long time. I guess it means there > are many 'short moments' following on from each other, conditioning > the next moment. > Its usually 'my pain' and we cling to that? N: There are many processes, and in several of these one moment of painful feeling may occur. Pain seems continuous, and here the idea of continuity prevents us from seeing the arising and falling away of it. Thus, painful feeling falls away, but it seems to last. As you say: 'my pain'. It is one moment produced by kamma. I would not say it conditions the next moment. It conditions receiving-consciousness by contiguity condition, that is all. Another moment of pain in another process is also produced by kamma, not by a former pain. Nina. 46017 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Tep > Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati > in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, > try walking meditation. Thanks for the advice, but I really don't think that kind of meditation woud suit me. I used to walk around parks and imagine I was projecting metta at people but I saw through that. Later, I walked around parks aware of the in and out breath. Now I just walk. There is so much going on, all the time. If you rely on "a suppportive environment" to condition sati, what does it say about the rest of the day when you are removed from your supportive condition? I would rather be aware of a lot of evident akusala than be unaware of akusala dressed up like kusala. And I like exercise as well. Walking around in slow motion in the hope of having sati would be pretty silly when I don't even tell nama from rupa! This does not apply to everyone. As I heard from Kh Sujin tonight "it's impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Metta, Phil 46018 From: Ken O Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood ashkenn2k HI Ven Dhammanando Bhikkhu and everyone I like to dicuss the right livelihood again about trading human - does a pimp of a brothel trade in human assume all the prostitues are willing employees about trading in intoxicants - does a waiter or a cashier consider trading in intoxicants if they sell alcoholic products regards Ken O p.s. Thanks Htoo and Sarah for your explanation on parents' permissions :-) 46019 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) philofillet Hi Nina > I would not call > any degree, even a weak degree of akusala, harmless. Natural yes, but not > harmless. Sama lobha is different from visama lobha in as far as we do not > harm others by sama lobha, but all the same it is accumulated. Ph: Thank you for this important reminder! Accumulated, and not harmless. Natural, yes, but unwise to think it is harmless. Thank you. This is something that will stick with me, I think. I wrote more about it but lost it and now there is sama lobha about taking a bath and going to bed. I will study your elaboration on sila, concentration and panna later. Metta, Phil 46020 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 5/24/05 10:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: It takes enormous subsequent mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probably not to carve out, characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. ====================== What I wrote here is quite confusing. Please replace "probably not to carve out" by "probably, to carve out". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46021 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Tep) - In a message dated 5/25/05 10:27:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Tep > Your "Walking in the Park" story shows how dfficult it is to condition sati > in an environment that is not supportive. Next time you walk there again, > try walking meditation. Thanks for the advice, but I really don't think that kind of meditation woud suit me. I used to walk around parks and imagine I was projecting metta at people but I saw through that. Later, I walked around parks aware of the in and out breath. Now I just walk. There is so much going on, all the time. If you rely on "a suppportive environment" to condition sati, what does it say about the rest of the day when you are removed from your supportive condition? I would rather be aware of a lot of evident akusala than be unaware of akusala dressed up like kusala. And I like exercise as well. Walking around in slow motion in the hope of having sati would be pretty silly when I don't even tell nama from rupa! This does not apply to everyone. As I heard from Kh Sujin tonight "it's impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Metta, Phil ====================== There's no need to "walk around in slow motion," though you might find it helpful to not go too quickly. Mainly, just attend primarily to the sensations involved in the act of walking - the touch sensations, the motion, the change in balance and shifting of the body, and along with that note subtle volition as it operates in changing pace and direction. When moving more quickly, attend to overall bodily sensation and posture, and when going at a slower pace, attend more specifically to foot and leg sensations and movements. Whatever else comes up in your awareness, observe it and let it go, easily. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46022 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: Control buddhatrue Hi Phil, Thanks for your responses in the two posts. I will try to briefly give my input to the various issues you have raised: 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested practices. James: I don't think that this is a problem of taking a sutta literally when it shouldn't be; this is more a matter of misinterpreting a sutta (Kind of the same thing but the first results from a particular view and the second results from not paying careful attention to the content). Of course, the practice is the Noble Eightfold Path and most of the suttas describe attainments. However, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like the `Noble disciple' described in the suttas. If we don't strive for greatness we will never achieve it. The monks often asked the Buddha to give a discourse for inspiration, not for instruction of techniques. Therefore, most of the discourses are supposed to be inspirational. 2) We are reading a translator's words. James: Yes, this can be a significant issue. Today I was thinking a bit about the traditional translation of `dukkha' as `suffering' and how that doesn't quite fit the meaning of dukkha. Learning Pali could help, but I believe that that is only effective when one learns Pali to a professional level. Knowing a few Pali words and throwing them here and there seems to create more confusion, in my opinion. 3) This is describing a result, not prescribing a practice. James: I agree, but again this isn't an issue of taking a sutta literally, it is a matter of misinterpretation. The practice is the Noble Eightfold Path and the other descriptions are to be taken as inspiration or guide posts for the dhamma practitioner. Thanks again for the response. Now I will understand more when you speak of taking suttas too literally. Metta, James 46023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It nilovg Hi Howard, welcome back. I was wondering what your experiences were, but you have been thinking on what you wrote below. I read it with interest. Only, I think we cannot find out all these relations by reasoning. As I wrote to Phil about nimitta: what happens now when looking in front, what do we see? We pay immediately attention to the nimitta and details. A text with details or a person with all the details. Nina. op 25-05-2005 18:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > In a message dated 5/24/05 10:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... > writes: > It takes enormous subsequent > mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probabl to carve > out, > characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, > let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. 46024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] natural lobha. (Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, Very good you brought up these points for consideration. Useful for many, I think. I also thought of the monk who should see danger in the slightest faults. Try to retreave your lost writings, Lovely you give us this reminder: Please, do this often. Nina. op 25-05-2005 16:49 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Thank you for this important reminder! Accumulated, and not > harmless. Natural, yes, but unwise to think it is harmless. Thank > you. This is something that will stick with me, I think. I wrote > more about it but lost it 46025 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:34am Subject: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi all, I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" and much of its supplementary reading. One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline . I told my counselor this morning that I had a dream last night and a realization while being driven to program that living the way I was, taht is, thinking much about whether to follow this sutta, was, bad. That is, specifically regarding the part that urges one to carry out the family tradition. This, for me, would mean carrying out Judaism at some level or in some form. The sutta is presented in the context of the abstinences of Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood. Now, I have had some reservations about carrying out Judaism, most especially because it does not jibe with what I have learned in my practise. However, as I said, I think talking about how and why I won't carry out Judaism and not following the layperson's code of discipline has been living in a bad way. Now a member of the Sangha has said that similarly to the Vinaya, it has a lot of rules to follow, but it actually makes living easier and simpler, contrary to what you might think. I am willing to give it a go, however, this morning I felt I could be getting serious about this and felt I could be as traditional as when I first started practising vipassana meditation. A few thoughts. What would it look like to carry out Judaism, but follow the Noble Eightfold Path, or keep mindfulness with me all day, at the same time. Practise shouldn't be limited to just one session of sitting meditation a day, and it would look downright self- contradictory if I were to engage in reading Jewish texts and doing prayers that talk about one's soul and all good things coming from God. I do think that people from other traditions or religions may have used this sutta as a guide, to, a heavenly rebirth, which the sutta says will result from adherence to the rules of the discipline. Judaism would fit fine with this, a heavenly rebirth would be wanted in Judaism, too. For me, it would be just a 'good' way to live, following this sutta, with heaven not as the goal but just a favorable rebirth if necessary. The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while doing this seems quite out of synch. I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only way to do this? Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not good relations with. It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder that, but know? So lastly, I wonder if doing work, aside from being idle (which is listed as an evil in this sutta), which for me means computer programming, generates any kamma, and so, if I do it habitually, it will help towards a more fortunate rebirth. It is said in the sutta, "Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things undone, the opportunities for good go past such men." So it seems work is the crux of goodness in this sutta. Is it mere work that can build one a 'shelter from anguish' as is described elsewhere in the texts, and bring about a more fortunate rebirth, or is it just as I might suppose, that doing work is just a central point (a somewhat good thing, but not necessarily good in the sense of generating kamma), for good, for treating others well? I find I am more 'good' to my family when I am doing programming, which I guess makes me more good in general. I really could use some feedback on this matter, especially with the last issue I brought up, because I ought to engage in some habitual good kamma so I don't have to have so much fear of what might come after this life, but be confident and accepting about it. -A.L. (yes that new picture is of me, Spring 2003) P.S. I remember one of my old views, that I simply have computer programming here, and can do this, and could have a computer or something as a deva in the next life, and women around me that are faithful and pretty to see as the Buddha describes what happens in heaven, and everything will be 50x better, more enjoyable. But just that acting wrongly with a woman in this life will cause this not to take place. I don't have the complete picture here, in fact this reminds me of how I used to think of Buddha and his monks observing the Vinaya, but I really don't think much of anymore the past year or two. Thanks much for the help!, A.L. 46026 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:37am Subject: There is a being only when there are clinging aggregates (was Re: Anatta) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: Choosing a post by James to read reminded me of the old days when I used to look forward to reading his posts to see just how excitingly obnoxious he would be! Sigh...it seems those days are gone James: ;-)) Not as exciting now is it: when everyone sounds the same? Phil, you are the main catalyst for the new, polite, boring me- too late for regrets. ;-)) Metta, James 46027 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Rob K had Part of her Book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas separately printed > as Realities and Concepts. A small booklet. If you give me your postal > address in Cairo I can send it, no problem. Thanks for the reminder but I just checked the Zolag web site and found some of the materials. I can download the pdf formats and read the material at my leisure. I also like pdf documents because I can make the text larger. Looks like I have a lot to read this summer! ;-) Metta, James 46028 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:48am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James and Nina - > > Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's > booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to > Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin > Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the > following Website: > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and > other writings of Ajahn Sujin. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep Thanks for this information. I found the material I was looking for. May I ask, have you read the writings of K. Sujin? What have you read? (I am taking an informal survey). Metta, James 46029 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi James - I read her Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and most other e-books at Zolag. Karuna, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi James and Nina - > > > > Thank you, Nina, for giving James an information about Ajahn Sujin's > > booklet on Paramathha-dhamma. While his book order is on its way to > > Cairo, James may want to read an online version of Sujin > > Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" at the > > following Website: > > > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > > > James, you'll also find there several e-books by Nina van Gorkom and > > other writings of Ajahn Sujin. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Tep > > Thanks for this information. I found the material I was looking for. > May I ask, have you read the writings of K. Sujin? What have you > read? (I am taking an informal survey). > > Metta, > James 46030 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 161. (xxxix) By its means they are greedy, or it itself is greedy, or it is just the mere being greedy, thus is it 'greed'. (xl) By its means they are deluded, or it itself is deluded, or it is just the mere being deluded, thus it is 'delusion'. 162. Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. 46031 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Larry, and all > 162. Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, > like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat > put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of > lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead > to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded > as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river > does to the great ocean. This would be a good chance for me to ask some very basic but important questions about craving, clinging and dependent origination that I have never really gotten around to figuring out. What is the difference between craving and clinging? The English connotation is that clinging is after we get something and craving is before, but I guess the Dhamma meaning is different. Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it important to understand tanha? I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and clinging lead to rebirth? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46032 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi James Thanks for the feedback > 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested > practices. > > James: I don't think that this is a problem of taking a sutta > literally when it shouldn't be; this is more a matter of > misinterpreting a sutta Ph: Yes, you're right. I will say "misinterpret" from now on. (Of course, the practice is the Noble > Eightfold Path and most of the suttas describe attainments. However, > there is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like the `Noble disciple' > described in the suttas. If we don't strive for greatness we will > never achieve it. Ph: Still think this is dangerous, because we are conditioned from childhood in the West to strive for greatness, to make something special out of one's life. When this is applied to Dhamma, the result might be beneficial but I think it will often lead more often to being too attached to one's self-identity, which is of course against the point. And I think we should be very aware that the noble disciple is a sotapanna and is really in a completely different league from us. Of course, as you say, it can inspire us to see what some people have achieved - yes, that's important. But being inspired by a sotapanna and imitating/emulating a sotapanna are different things, I think. > The monks often asked the Buddha to give a > discourse for inspiration, not for instruction of techniques. > Therefore, most of the discourses are supposed to be inspirational. Ph: But we are not monks hearing the suttas directly from the Buddha, so the inspiration we can receive is going through so much accumualted ignorance. We should bear this in mind. > > 2) We are reading a translator's words. > > James: Yes, this can be a significant issue. Today I was thinking a > bit about the traditional translation of `dukkha' as `suffering' and > how that doesn't quite fit the meaning of dukkha. Learning Pali could > help, but I believe that that is only effective when one learns Pali > to a professional level. Knowing a few Pali words and throwing them > here and there seems to create more confusion, in my opinion. Ph: Sometimes more confusion, sometimes less. (Take "mana", for instance - "conceit" doesn't get it.) But I would certainly like to be able to know whether a sentence was originally in the imperative or the passive. As in that "well-tamed heart" vs "tame your heart" example I gave. It might not take too much Pali study to be able to differentiate the passive from the imperative. Catch you again on Saturday, James. Metta, Phil p.s I joked about missing the "excitingly obnoxious" James but these rather blandly toned posts are better for us. Like eating brown rice and tofu. More easily digested. 46033 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, who develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with 16 grounds (bases or vatthu -- thanks to Sarah's correction), into 10 groups (I - X). Section i and Section ii describe the knowledges in I and II. Section iii deals with the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing (vodaana-naana) in III, and covers paragraphs 15 through 168. However, most of these paragraphs are based on the paragraphs 19 - 23. These "core" paragraphs are presented below and, because of their importance, they should be studied very carefully so that the remaining material may be clearly understood. As usual all the Pali words I could find are inserted in parentheses behind their corresponding English translation. I want to acknowledge the able help from Dr. Han Tun who has provided me with the Pali words that are not listed in the INDEX section of the book (The Path of Discrimination), for example: Disquieted = saaraddha; perturbed= injita; excited = phandita; hope for = patikankhati nikanti; fatigued = mucchita, shakable = vikampitattaa; distraction = vikkhepa; slack= lina; over-exerted (atipaggahita); enticed (abhinata); repelled (apanata) . --------------------------------------------------------- Section iii 15. What are the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing (vodaana- naana)? (1) Cognizance(citta) that runs after the past [breaths] is attacked by distraction: by avoiding that he concentrates it in one place, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (2) Cognizance that looks to the future [breaths] is shakable (vikampitattaa): by avoiding that he composes it there, thus also cognizance does not become distracted. (3) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja): by exerting it he abandons indolence, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (4) Over-exerted(atipaggahita) cognizance is attacked by agitation (uddhacca): by exerting it he abandons indolence, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (5) Enticed(abhinata) cognizance is attacked by greed(raaga): by being fully aware of that he abandons greed, thus cognizance does not become distracted. (6) Repelled(apanata) cognizance is attacked by ill-will (vyaapaada): by being fully aware of that he abandons ill-will, thus cognizance does not become distracted. In these six aspects cognizance becomes purified and bright and arrives at the unities. 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in the act of giving], (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha nimitta) [in concentration], (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of fall [in insight], (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the cahracteristic of fall belongs to those practising insight. The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble persons (ariya). 18. In these four instances cognizance arrived at unity (11) enters into purification of the way [PTS vol. i, p. 167, 1.20 read patipadaavisuddhipakkhantam. The whole of this passage is commented on in Ch. IV of the Vism (pp. 148-9)] (12) is intensified in equanimity(upekkhaa), (13) is satisfied by knowledge. * 19. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the first jhana? Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. 20. Of the first jhana purification of the way is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: (i) cognizance is purified of obstructions to that [jhana]; (ii) because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta); (iii) because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state. And in that cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity(samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way (patipadaa-visuddhi) is the beginning of the first jhana. These are the three characteristics of the beginning. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the beginning, which possesses [three] characteristics. 21. Of the first jhana intensification of equanimity is the middle: how many characteristics has the middle? The middle has three characteristics: (iv) he looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified; (v) he looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity; (vi) he looks on with equanimity at the establishment of unity. And in that he [now] looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity(samatha) and looks on with equanimity(upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity(ekatta), that intensification of equanimity is the middle of the first jhana. These are three characteristics of the middle. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the middle, which possesses [three] characteristics. 22. Of the first jhana encouragement is the end: how many characteristics has the end? The end has four characteristics: (vii) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas (dhamma) arisen therein; (viii) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function (rasa = taste); (ix) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy(viriya) was effective; (x) encouragement in the sense of repetition; are the encouragement in the end of the first jhana. These are the four characteristics of the end. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the end, which possesses [four] characteristics. 23. Cognizance that has reached the triple cycle [of beginning, middle and end] thus and is good in the three ways and possesses the ten characteristics also possesses [the five jhana factors of] applied- thought (vitakka) and sustained-thought(vicara) and happiness(piti) and pleasure(sukkha) and steadiness(adhitthaana) as well as [the five faculties and powers of] faith(saddha) and energy(viriya) and mindfulness(sati) and concentration(samadhi) and understanding (panna). ----------------------------------- Tep's Notes: for the remaining paragraphs the "first jhana" is replaced by the second jhana through the fourth jhana, by each of the four immaterial attainments, by each of the 18 principal insights, and by each of the four paths (ariya-magga). Let us discuss the above core paragraphs based on the first jhana in a separate post. Respectfully yours, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG members - > > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from > paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > > 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, > That loves the future, that is slack, > Over-exerted, or enticed, > Or repelled, is unconcentrated. > These six defects in concentration > Based upon mindfulness of breathing > Are such that when they stain his thought > He knows not higher cognizance. > > 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle > and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and > end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both > his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- > breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too > long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still > shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his > body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and > his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > > 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing > Is undeveloped, unperfected, > Finds perturbation of his body > Likewise of his cognizance, > He is then excited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > One whose mindfulness of breathing > Has been developed and perfected, > Quits perturbation of his body > And likewise of his cognizance, > He is unexcited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > > 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those > hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by > mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen > imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations > (samodhaana). > > [End of Section ii] > 46034 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hi Howard Thanks for the feedback. Mainly, just attend primarily to the > sensations involved in the act of walking - the touch sensations, the motion, the > change in balance and shifting of the body, and along with that note subtle > volition as it operates in changing pace and direction. When moving more quickly, > attend to overall bodily sensation and posture, and when going at a slower pace, > attend more specifically to foot and leg sensations and movements. Whatever > else comes up in your awareness, observe it and let it go, easily. > You explain this very well, thanks. Today when I was going for my walk, your post came to mind in a very unforced way. I became aware of sensations, and breath. At first it was quite spontaneous. Unfortunately, I got all involved in thinking about what I was doing and assigning too much importance to it. That has always been my problem with meditation. "Now I'm going to meditate!" There's so much self involved for me. (For me - I don't know about others.) But maybe someday this sort of thing will arise more spontaneously, rooted in alobha and amoha rather than the greed and ignorance that arise now when I try to meditate, and there will be benefit from it. We'll see what we see. For the time being, it is definitely self trying to get rid of self, and that's something I'm going to steer clear of as much as possible. Thanks again. And to Tep. It was another good example for me of how posts I read at DSG can be very helpful conditioning factors. Metta, Phil 46035 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Hi Phil, Here are some answers taken mostly from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Phil: "What is the difference between craving and clinging? The English connotation is that clinging is after we get something and craving is before, but I guess the Dhamma meaning is different." Larry: 3 kinds of tanha: sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence (all conditioned by feeling, esp. pleasant feeling). 4 kinds of upadana: sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to mere rules and ritual, clinging to personality belief. Clinging is "an intensified degree of craving". Synonyms: tanha, lobha, raga. " 'Clinging' is the common rendering for upadana, though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'." My opinion: notice how clinging has to do with belief; I would take this to be a distinguishing characteristic of clinging; this is precisely where the world of "I", "me", and "my" arises whenever it arises; maybe we can view these three as 'intensified desire'. Phil: "Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it important to understand tanha?" Larry: Tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering (dukkha). Phil: "I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and clinging lead to rebirth?" Larry: Dependent origination is daily life, except daily life isn't just feeling and desire; although it mostly is. Larry ------------------------ Here is the def. of tanha from the "Buddhist Dictionary": [Maybe Nina or Htoo could explain "ta.nhaa-vicarita" (thought-channels of craving).] tanhá: (lit. 'thirst'): 'craving', is the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (káma-tanhá), the craving for existence (bhava-tanhá), the craving for non-existence (vibhava-tanhá)'' (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the dependent origination (paticcasamuppáda, q.v.). Cf. sacca. Corresponding to the 6 sense-objects, there are 6 kinds of craving craving for visible objects, for sounds, odours, tastes, bodily impressions, mental impressions (rúpa-, sadda-, gandha-, rasa-, photthabba-, dhamma-tanhá). (M. 9; D. 15) Corresponding to the 3-fold existence, there are 3 kinds: craving for sensual existence (káma-tanhá), for fine-material existence (rúpa-tanhá), for immaterial existence (arúpa-tanhá). (D. 33) There are 18 'thought-channels of craving' (tanhá-vicarita) induced internally, and 18 induced externally; and as occurring in past, present and future, they total 108; see A. IV, 199; Vibh., Ch. 17 (Khuddakavatthu-Vibhanga). According to the dependent origination, craving is conditioned by feeling; on this see D. 22 (section on the 2nd Truth). Of craving for existence (bhava-tanhá ) it is said (A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply." - Craving for existence and ignorance are called "the outstanding causes that lead to happy and unhappy destinies (courses of existence)" (s. Vis.M. XVII, 36-42). The most frequent synonyms of tanhá are rága (q.v.) and lobha (s. múla). 46036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 25, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/25/05 11:41:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: You explain this very well, thanks. Today when I was going for my walk, your post came to mind in a very unforced way. I became aware of sensations, and breath. At first it was quite spontaneous. Unfortunately, I got all involved in thinking about what I was doing and assigning too much importance to it. That has always been my problem with meditation. "Now I'm going to meditate!" There's so much self involved for me. (For me - I don't know about others.) --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's everbody's problem - actually, one of many problems! ;-) But as the Buddha and others have wisely stated, patience is a virtue. --------------------------------------------- But maybe someday this sort of thing will arise more spontaneously, rooted in alobha and amoha rather than the greed and ignorance that arise now when I try to meditate, and there will be benefit from it. We'll see what we see. For the time being, it is definitely self trying to get rid of self, and that's something I'm going to steer clear of as much as possible. ------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin where we are, not where we would hope to be. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46037 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 9:29pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Larry (and Howard at the end) Thanks! > Larry: 3 kinds of tanha: sensual craving, craving for existence, > craving for non-existence (all conditioned by feeling, esp. pleasant > feeling). Ph: Ok, so as in the sutta where it says when a monk doesn't understand feeling, something or other results, it is craving. > > 4 kinds of upadana: sensuous clinging, clinging to views, clinging to > mere rules and ritual, clinging to personality belief. Clinging is "an > intensified degree of craving". Synonyms: tanha, lobha, raga. " > 'Clinging' is the common rendering for upadana, though 'grasping' would > come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'." > > My opinion: notice how clinging has to do with belief; I would take this > to be a distinguishing characteristic of clinging; this is precisely > where the world of "I", "me", and "my" arises whenever it arises; Ph: So as in the post by James I re-posted yesterday, it is through this clinging that the clinging aggregates come to be, i.e how a being comes to be. I would think though that clinging mostly happens at a level below conscious belief. Sensuous clinging must be more prevalent than the other three, I would thing. All that sama lobha during the day - every time we shift in the seat to be more comfortable, etc. That would be a form of sensuous clinging. > maybe > we can view these three as 'intensified desire' Ph: Ok, I guess I was wrong above - shifting in the seat to be more comfortable isn't intense. And the dictionary above says clinging is an intensified form of craving. This is still confusing to me, because khandas are always clinging, but rarely in what seems to be an intense way. > Phil: "Are they both forms of lobha? Which one is tanha? Why is it > important to understand tanha?" > > Larry: Tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering (dukkha). Ph: If clinging is a "more intense degree of craving", is it the cause of a more intense form of dukkha? A more prominent form of dukkha? Please feel free to disregard this question. I just ask it off the top of my head. Maybe it is useful - probably not. > Phil: "I think they are both factors in dependent origination. Do their > roles in dependent origination have to do with how they play out in > daily life or is dependent origination usually about how craving and > clinging lead to rebirth?" > > Larry: Dependent origination is daily life, except daily life isn't just > feeling and desire; although it mostly is. Ph: Thanks. Well said. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks Howard for that "we start where we are, not where we want to be." Interesting - that'll stick with me, though I'm not sure I agree. There's so much ignorance where I am now that I think starting a formal practice of any kind would just be splashing around in the mud. But maybe not. You could be right. I am keeping an open mind about meditation. 46038 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 25, 2005 10:08pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Andrew L, If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. The Dhamma is always about understanding the present reality and never about wanting to change it. Therefore, people who follow the Dhamma correctly are (generally speaking) unlikely to undertake dramatic changes in lifestyle. ------------------------------------ A: > The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while doing this seems quite out of synch. ------------------------------------- Are you going to practise the Buddha's teaching the way the ancient commentators understood it, or the way modern commentators have understood it? In the former way, you can continue a normal, unremarkable, lifestyle - provided only that you set aside some time for learning the Dhamma. However, if you are going to follow modern-day gurus - who teach things that were never in the Tipitaka - then daily life will be disrupted. ----------------------------------------------- A: > I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only way to do this? -------=---------------------------------------- If you are naturally inclined towards carrying on the family tradition (or any other normal tradition), then why not? On the other hand, if you find your lifestyle to be unnatural and burdensome, then you will naturally, and effortlessly, seek out something different. ----------------------- A: > Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not good relations with. ------------------------ There is no need to upset your father - any more than there is need for a spiritual practice outside of normal daily life. It is worth repeating: according to the ancient texts, the Buddha's teaching is all about understanding the way things are - it is not about making things the way they aren't. --------------------------------- A: > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder that, but know? ---------------------------------- You wouldn't be the first person to 'not know.' How many of us (including myself) have mucked up their lives by trying to be a good Buddhist? It doesn't work that way. I proved it. If you take a fool out of his city office and his suburban brick-veneer, and put him in a one-room shack with a veggie garden, what do you get? You get a fool in a shack with a garden. Ken H :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" > and much > of its supplementary reading. > > One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share > is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline 46039 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, S: We were discussing any textual references for the custom of ‘pouring water’ and I mentioned Tirokudda Sutta and commentary. I believe the following verses are often quoted during such services as the sharing of merit with the departed: 1.Tirokudda Sutta (The Without-the-Walls Discourse), Khuddakapaatha, (PTS-~Naa.namoli transl) “As water showered on the hill Flows down to reach the hollow vale, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin. As river-beds when full can bear The water down to fill the sea, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin.” ... Comy note: “Here is their meaning. Just as (yathaa), when on the hill (unnamed), on dry land, on a high piece of ground, rain is showered down (abhiva.t.tha’m) by clouds, the water (udaka’m) flows down (pavattati) to reach the hollow vale (ninna’m), flows, goes to, reaches, any hollow, low-lying piece of ground; so (evam eva) the giving of a gift given (dinna’m) from here (ito) can serve (upakappati) – the meaning is, becomes generated, manifested, for – the ghosts of the departed kin (petaana’m); since the ghost world is like the hollow place for the water to flow down to, and the service of the almsgiving is like the water’s flowing down, according as it is said ‘That is the place, and an almsgiving serves him while he remains there’. “And just as (yathaa), with the confluence of cascades and springs, rills and rivulets, pools and meres, the great rivers, the river-beds (vaarivahaa) when they are full (puuraa), can bear the water down to fill the sea (saagaram paripuurenti), so giving given here can serve the ghosts of the departed kin in the way already stated.” ***** 2.I also recall that when King Bimbisara presented the Bamboo Grove to the Buddha, he poured water over the Buddha’s hands. Possibly one concerning Anathapindika too, but no references for now. ***** 3.Also in AN, Bk of 8s, ‘On Householders’ (Hare, PTS transl) A man is about to become a bhikkhu and tells his four wives that they may either enjoy the wealth he leaves, go to their own relations or be ‘given’ to a new husband of their choice. The eldest wife requests a certain man and her former husband takes his wife ‘by the left hand and holding the waterpot in my right’, he ‘cleansed* that man (by an act of dedication.)’ *Note: “o.nojesi’n; see Q of M ii, 45;Mil 236; Vin 1 39. Comy on this word in the next sutta observes: he poured water on their hands and gave her. This ceremony is still that used at a Buddhist marriage in Ceylon.” ***** 4."Transference of Merit in Ceylonese Buddhism",G. P. Malalasekera “On the pressing invitation of the king, Mahinda and his companions made their residence in the royal pavilion of the Mahameghavana which was "neither too far nor too near the city." When the king came to know that the guests liked this place, he offered the Mahameghavana to the Sangha, pouring water from a vase over the hands of Mahinda signifying the gift being offered and accepted. This gift expressed in a tangible and visible form the inner-religious devotion of the king and assured the material security necessary for the spiritual life of the monks. Mahinda, therefore, made in public the most significant announcement that Buddhism would be established in Sri Lanka.” From the Mahavamasa (PTS,’the Great Cronicle of Ceylon’) the quote Malalasekera is referring to here: “ ‘It is well,’ said the kind, and taking a splendid vase he poured water (in token) of giving, over the hand of the thera Mahinda with the words: ‘This Mahaanegha-park do I give to the brotherhood.’ “As the water fell on the ground, the great earth quaked. And the protector of the earth asked the (thera): ‘Wherefore does the earth quake?’ And he replied: ‘Because the doctrine is (from henceforth) founded in the island.’” ***** I know this latter one is not a sutta quote, but you may find it of interest too. I’m sure there are others, but that’s all I can think of for now. Metta, Sarah p.s Others may like to check messages in ‘Sharing of Merit’ in U.P. If anyone has further 'pouring of water' refs such as the ones involving K.Bimbisara or Anathapindika, pls share! ============================================ ====== 46040 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 25, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Nina), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti > and great great somanassa'. > > I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. ... S: I agree it wasn’t a very good example to give, even if technically correct,. Actually it’s quite interesting now I look at the texts. I was thinking of this passage from the Nina’s book. “As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. **** S: I was rushing before when I sent you several posts and had never checked these refs she gives. You’ll find them interesting so let me quote one for you here, going back a step: Vism XX1, 111: [THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH’S FACTORS, ETC] (Vism caps): “This knowledge of equanimity about formations governs the fact that the meditator keeps apart. It furthermore governs the difference in the [number of the] noble path’s enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, the mode of progress, and the kind of liberation. For while some elders say that it is the jhana used as the basis for insight [leading to emergence] that governs the difference in the [number of] enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, and some say that it is the aggregates made the object of insight that govern it, and some say that it is the personal bent that governs it, yet it is only this preliminary insight and insight leading to emergence that should be understood to govern it in their doctrine. “To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy [piiti] and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy.” ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana (equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== 46041 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with the discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin asked: > Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and > panna? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand > what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata > ditthi as if it is not there. =Sukinder: :-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement. ============================== > Sukin continued to ask: > Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no > matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the > path be walked upon? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. > > There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or > whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and > such dhamma. =Sukinder: Maybe you could answer my question regardless of any `subtle sassata ditthi' that may be apparent in my statement? And if I continue to project any sassata ditthi in our discussions, you can also explain more? ============================== Htoo: > I just simply said that > > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 46042 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Discussion continued: ========================== > S=> > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. > ========================= > Htoo: > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > following. =Sukinder: Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there is `following'. This may happen very rarely, but it is better than mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or even any level of kusala. And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he is deluding himself. Metta, Sukinder 46043 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion. ============================ > Htoo: > > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > > he knows it arises'. > > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. > > S=> > The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Of course, you can. =Sukinder: ?? You mean `me' or the `ripe'? ============================= > Sukin: > Only the Anagami doesn't. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Why? =Sukinder: No conditions? ============================= > Sukin: > But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being > addressed to the so called `ripe', > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? =Sukinder: No. But the Buddha was speaking to the ripe, wasn't he? ============================= > Sukin: > > We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may > not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is > a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not > `doing'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) =Sukinder: Does this mean you agree? If so, to what extent? ============================= > Sukin: > One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's > teachings'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you never do it? =Sukinder: Intention arises with each citta. My concern mostly is only to `understand' what is said about the Dhamma. I don't presume that it will happen, though this is one condition for pariyatti, and when this does arise, it is accompanied by a level of sati. But even if there is in fact wrong understanding and I go away with the illusion of `knowing', still it is not from any presumption before hand about the activity. There is no control over how the words are presented and which phrase will condition what. ================================ > Sukin: > Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about > and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship > between pariyatti and patipatti. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If > one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence > is the same. =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. =========================== > Sukin: > If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can > be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. > However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or > satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the > corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :D =Sukinder: :-) Does this mean agreeing? ============================== Htoo: > Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. =Sukinder: Any idea of a `self' having to do something in order that satipatthana will arise. Metta, Sukinder 46044 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Your summarised point 8: > > 8. #45326 – on `first-hand objects' referring to the 7 > rupas experienced > thr' the sense doors. I don't think we can say that other > rupas > experienced through the mind-door only are not `first-hand'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The object that comes first is first-hand object. 7 rupas serve as > 1st- > hand objects. > > In a life there are sense-door consciousness and mind-door > consciousness. > > Mind-door consciousness receive sense-door consciousness as > sense-door > consciousness know. Here eye, ear, nose, tongue, body receive the > object first. But the mind receives it at a later time. ... S: Agreed so far....:) .... > > Other rupa experienced through mind door are > > 1. 5 panca pasada rupas > > These are only known after learning. .... S: I don't understand your comment. Does this mean the cittas of a baby or animal do not experience pasada rupas or subtle rupas because they haven't been learned? Surely the function of sati is to be aware of what is being experienced by citta anyway, not to 'learn' to have new dhammas being experienced. The same as with the 7 sense-door rupas....they arise and fall and are experienced regardless of any sati. ... > > 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters ... S: Like very subtle rupas such as masculinity and femininity...they're there arising and falling and being experienced from time to time, but who knows? ... > > Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it’s an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: “Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta.” **** S: I think your ‘first-hand’ and ‘second-hand’ may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear, so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....’pali basics for dummies’:). ============================================= 46045 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! to #45413 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah and interested members, > > You wrote: > > #45413 – you say `whether there are silent or not akusala > always has a > mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst." It's true that > mind-door > cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as > killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? > Humans, insects etc – see U.P. `killing'. It always come > back to the > cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large > animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about > it > afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) > ---------------- > Htoo: > > Killing with wrong view? Killing is mostly done by one of 2 dosa mula > citta. Ditthi or wrong view normally does not invlove in killing > until and unless the killing is also done with lobha. > > How will you say? ... S: I'll say, you're right. Killing is usually with dosa. However, it can be with lobha, such as killing for sacrifice. I was merely responding to Phil's question in my comment that 'with wrong view' is worse. Also, even though the actual moments of killing are usually with dosa, there may well be lobha with or without wrong view motivating it in advance. How will you say? metta, Sarah ======== 46046 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: I said 'usually untrue words'. When kamma are summerised they > come under musaavaada. When they are spread out there are 4 vaci- > kamma. ... S: I don't think we can put all wrong speech under the 'umbrella' of musaavada. For example, harsh speech or slander are not musaavada. Atth., Courses of Immoral Action: " 'Lying'(musaavada) is applied to the effort of the body and speech, on the part of one who is deceitful, to destroy the good of others. The volition setting up the bodily and vocal effort to deceive, with the intention of cheating others, is termed 'false speech.'........It is more or less an offence according as the welfare destroyed is greater or smaller...." .... > > Example harsh word or rude word is very very frequently used > by 'actors of western films'. I would not write the word here. > Sometimes directness conveys the necessary meaning but sometimes > directness hurts some certain person who do not have kind heart. > > When that word appears, is it true or not? Not true. Then this is > musaavaada as well. ... S: Last time I quoted from the Atth the passage indicating that harsh words cannot be measured by the language or even tone. "But as words are not harsh if the heart be tender, so are they not gentle, just because speech is soft". So I don't think your example is a very apt one - there is no 'entirely harsh volition....stabbing another as with a mortal wound' when the actor performs his role. It's like working with difficult teenage boys....sometimes one has to speak strongly, I assure you, to get results:). Also, your example wouldn't meet the definition of musaavaada above -- no intention to 'destroy the good of others' and no 'welfare destroyed'. .... > That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under > musaavaada. ... S: I'd like to see a reference for this. Metta, Sarah ======== 46047 From: cosmique Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:09am Subject: the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka cosmique1000 Dear friends, I assume some of you heard of the debate between a Christian missionary and a Buddhist monk that took place in Sri Lanka in the 19th century. Unexpectedly for Christians who believed that their religion was a great deal more logical than "the Asian superstition" their spokesman was completely defeated by his Buddhist opponent. I heard that copies of the debate were available from any Buddhist bookshop in Sri Lanka. Could anyone who knows tell me the title of the debate or a book that might possibly contain it? I am going to Sri Lanka in a month time and, of course, would like to get a copy of it. Thanks in advance. with maha metta, May Triple Gem bless everyone! cosmique 46048 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I thought you made some good points in your post and I mostly followed what you were saying. I think that all the 'intricate...complexity' is there already in the visible objects otherwise it would be impossible to recognise the patterns, colours, details and so on according to sanna which has been marking and learning about these objects since birth. So citta already 'knows' or experiences it all.... the Atthasalini is still open here - "From kamma and form, form and perceptions come, perceptions differentiation cause In things, as 'This is woman,' 'This is man'." " 'O lad, beings have kamma as their property, they are its heirs, are originated by it, are its kind, are sheltered by it. Kamma divides beings into low and exalted. by this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind (citta) to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only. "Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece...." The task of awareness is merely to be aware of the dhamma which is seen just as it is and for panna to know it. Hence the analogy we started off with in Vism to the ways citta, sanna and panna know the object. Sanna was like the child who saw and marked the coin but without any knowledge about its use or value, citta was like the villager who knew about its use, value and other details, but still knew nothing about whether it was genuine. Panna was like the money-changer who knew all the details, including whether it was genuine and so on. --- upasaka@... wrote: > My point, then, is not to be too quick > to > turn up our noses at the cognitive, "indirect" processing that is in > constant > operation. Without it, we would each be much like what David Kalupahana, > quoting > William James, likes to call a sessile sea anemone. .... S: :-). The cognitive processing has always been and will always be in operation. It too, can be known for what it is, just like the cittas involved when there is any turning up of our noses:). I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 I think we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to seeing, visible object and conceptualising, even though we use different language. Good to see you back, Howard. Htoo's really taken your no 1 spot :/ Metta, Sarah ====== 46049 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > THERE IS NO MENTION OF SITTING MEDITATION, WALKING MEDITATION BY THE > BUDDHA. :-)) > > Yes. The Buddha did not say 'sitting meditation' 'walking > meditation'. The Buddha just preached how to do 'satipatthaana'. > > Among many methods, The Buddha did say that > > 'the typical bhikkhu sits by folding lower part of the body putting > straight upper part of the body and put the mind straight forward' > > 'when going, he knows he goes'. ... S: He didn’t say ‘sit’ or ‘walk’ or ‘go to the forest’. When going, when you are in the forest, when you go home, when you sit at the computer...wherever you are, develop satipatthana. And with regard to your other comments (to Tep), I haven’t seen any denying of the need to develop panna and sati here. Understanding more about dhammas, the objects of satipatthana and about sati and panna and all these dhammas as being anatta doesn’t lead to any denial of the importance and urgency of the development of satipatthana. Quite the contrary. However, it is with the understanding of conditioned dhammas which you write about in your other threads. I agree with your comments about ekaayano (one way) too. ... > Htoo: > > 1. first breathing is directed as primary object. Because this is > quite evident to all breathing-beings<...> > 2. one at any time is in a specific posture. No doubt. Would you deny > this? The Buddha did not encourage the idea of postures. But the > instructions are related to postures. Because seeing of these > postures may help seeing of rupa and then naama. ... S: How can there be any ‘seeing of these postures’? What is seen again? Please give the answer loudly for all to hear:). How are postures known, Htoo? By which door-way? What are the conditions for being aware of visible object or seeing consciousness? Is ‘seeing postures’ one? .... > > You are always always in a specific posture. And that posture is not > static and it has to be changed to another one. All these changing > processes have to be seen. ... S: In reality, what is ‘specific posture’? .... > > 3. Apart from 4 major postures, there are many changing movements > inside the body like stretching, bending, looking straight, looking > elsewhere, holding something etc. .... S: Are these concepts or realities? Please give the answer loudly again:). > > The instructions are instruction and they are not to be analysed by > paramattha dhamma. .... S: When the Buddha used conventional terms, did he or did he not have any understanding of the paramattha dhammas involved? What about the bhikkhus who listened and became enlightened? Did they take ‘postures’ for realities or did they understand that these were conventional terms being used as short-hand to represent many different dhammas ...? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Ananda in his final day of sotapanhood meditated a lot. He walked. He > sat. He stood. And finally he lied down. ... S: Right, he didn’t just stay sitting at the root of any tree. .... > > The Buddha did not say 'this is the best way' 'this is the worst way' > in mahasatipatthana sutta. But what The Buddha said in > mahasatipatthana sutta is > > 'aranna gato vaa, rukkha mula gato vaa, sunnagaara gato vaa nissidati' > > aranna = forest, wood > gato = having gone > vaa = or > rukkha = tree > mula = root, rukkhamula_foot of tree > sunnagaara = unoccupied place or building > nissidat = sit .... S: Yes, ‘having gone to the forest....’, not ‘go to the forest..’. Did he use this expression when speaking to lay people? Did he use it when speaking to all bhikkhus? Did he use it to Ananda all the time? Might he not say to us: ‘having gone to the swimming pool......school with your kids......theatre.......computer to check messages.....brisk walk in the park.......develop samatha and vipassana bhavana/ satipatthana. ‘ There is only ever the present moment whether here or there, so if there is no awareness and understanding right now of whatever dhamma is conditioned already to appear, then satipatthana cannot develop. Forget about the root of the tree, Htoo:-). Metta, Sarah p.s ‘Dispeller’ 1589: “so ara~n~nagato vaa (‘he, having gone to the forest’): this indicates that he is provided with an abode of the aforesaid kind.” Mind you, we can help you find some nice forests when you come to Hong Kong....:). ====== 46050 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, last one in this batch: --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: A characteristic (lakkhana) of reality. Not a concept. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > So you think it is like you explained in Citta A-Citta B business. ... S: No, this is a different question....Anatta is the nature or characteristic of all dhammas regardless of which process they arise or don't arise in etc. Metta, Sarah ======== 46051 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:13am Subject: Pali basis (02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 Pali letters and 8 vowels. 33 letters are a) K, Kh, G, Gh, `N When these letter are combined with a vowel like 'a' they will become ka, kha, ga, gha, `na Ka is unvoiced sound when ga is voiced sound. If you say 'ka' and ga' alternatively for many time you will notice that there is a difference in voicing. 'Ga' invloves voice-box's activity or laryngeal action when 'ka' does not. Ka and kha are similar. But you will notice the difference when you place your palm of hand in front of the mouth and say repeatedly 'ka' and 'kha' alternatively. Kha will cause a gush of wind coming out of the mouth as evident by sensing palm. `N is just a nasalised sound. When there is a disease causing weakness of tissue of speaking then 'ka' will become '`na' when 'ka' is tried to say. b) C, Ch, J, Jh, ~N Ca, cha, ja, jha, ~n The same applies here like in ka, kha, ga, gha, and `na. c) .T, .Th, .D, .Dh, .N .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .n The same as above. d) T, Th, D, Dh, N Ta, tha, da, dha, n The same as above. But there is a bit similarity between c) and d) .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .na cause the mouth in the position of 'O' whereas ta, tha, da, dha, na are pronounced with wide-open mouth. e) P, Ph, B, Bh, M Pa, pha, ba, bha, m The same as a), b), c), d). f) Y, R, L, V, S g) H, .L, .m There is no initial letter for '.m'. It is called niggahitta. Example of '.m' is kamma = ka.m + ma ( k + a + .m + m + a ) There are 8 vowels. They are 1) a as in case of 'ca' 'na' 2) aa as in case of 'vaa' 3) i as in case of 'ti' 'pi' 4) ii as in case of 'dii' in Diigha 5) u as in case of 'nu' of 'anupassanaa' 6) uu as in case of 'muu' in muula 7) e as in case of 'de' in deva 8) o as in case of 'do' in dosa Regarding vowel sounding an example of a typical word 'K' will be used here. ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, ko ka.m kakka, kakkha, kagga, kaggha, ka`nka kacca, kaccha, kajja, kajjha, ka~nna ka.tta, ka.ttha, ka.dda, ka.ddha, ka.nna katta, kattha, kadda, kaddha, kanna kappa, kappha, kabba, kabbha, kamma kitta, kinna kutta, kunna ka~nta, ka~ntha, ka~nda, ka~ndha ka.n.ta, ka.n.tha, ka.n.da, ka.ndha kanta, kantha, kanda, kandha kampa, kampha, kamba, kambha keyya, kalla, kva, [tan]ha With Metta, Htoo Naing 46052 From: dhammanando@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: question on seeking permission from parents dhammanando_... Dear Ken O., > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a > monk A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either > one will do? Permission from both parents is needed. The Mahaavagga states: na, bhikkhave, ananu~n~naato maataapituuhi putto pabbaajetabbo. Yo pabbaajeyya, aapatti dukka.tassa. "Monks, a son must not be given the going forth without permission from his mother and father. Should one do so, it is an offence of wrong-doing." -- Vin. i. 83 The Atthakathaa states: sace dve atthi, dvepi aapucchitabbaa. "If both exist [i.e. are alive], then leave must be obtained from both." -- VinA. v. 1011 But there are quite a number of exceptions given in the Vinaya Atthakatha. Below I have appended a translation of it. > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in > the family. If the family has a few children, then as long > as there are some children not ordained, one of them who > wished to be obtained, dont need the parent permission. I think your friend has been misinformed, or perhaps what he heard concerns the interpretation of the Chinese Dharmagupta tradition. The Atthakathaa does offer a few loopholes (I particularly like the one about the spoilt kid!), but none of them come close to what your friend is describing. Tomorrow I will be going to Lamphun for a fortnight, so I won't be able to answer any further questions till I get back. Best wishes, Dhammanando ____________________________ A quick and rough translation of Buddhaghosa's explanation of the phrase, "without permission from his mother and father" (VinA. v. 1011-12) Here, the phrase "from his mother and father" was said in regard to the man and woman who conceived him. If both are living, then leave must be obtained from both of them. If the father or mother is deceased, then leave must be obtained from [the parent] who is still living. Even if they have themselves gone forth, leave must still be obtained from them. * * * * When obtaining leave, he may either go and obtain it himself, or may send another person, saying to him, "Go to my mother and father and having obtained their leave come back." * * * * If he says, "I am one who has obtained permission," he may be given the going forth if it is believable. * * * * A father has himself gone forth and wishes his son to go forth; having obtained leave of the mother, let him go forth; or, a mother wishes her daughter to go forth; having obtained leave of the father, let her go forth. * * * * A father, not concerned for the welfare of his wife and son, runs away. The mother gives her son to some monks, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "He has run away to disport himself." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth. A mother has run away with some man or other. The father gives [his son to some monks, saying], "Let him go forth." The principle in this case is just the same as above. The Kurundii* states: 'A father is absent. The mother gives her son permission, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "I shall be responsible for whatever is due to you from the father." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth.' [* Kurundii: the Sinhalese commentary most frequently cited by Buddhaghosa as the source of his Vinaya exegesis.] * * * * The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth without having obtained their leave there is no offence. They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father", and with respect to these the principle is just the same as above. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father. * * * * Even if he be a king, he must still obtain leave before being given the going forth. * * * * Being permitted by his mother and father, he goes forth, but [later] reverts [to being a householder]. Even if he goes forth and reverts seven times, on each occasion that he comes [to go forth] again he must obtain leave [from his mother and father] before he may be given the going forth. * * * * If [his mother and father] say: "This [son of ours], having reverted and come home, does not do any work for us; having gone forth he will not fulfil his duty to you; there is no point in him obtaining leave; whenever he comes to you, just give him the going forth." When [a son] has been disowned in this way, it is suitable for him to be given the going forth again without even obtaining leave. * * * * He who when only in his childhood had been given away [by his mother and father, saying], "This is a gift for you; give him the going forth whenever you want," may be given the going forth whenever he comes [to ask for it], without even obtaining leave. But [a mother and father], having given permission [to their son] when he was only in his childhood, afterwards, when he has reached maturity, withdraw their permission; he must not be given the going forth without obtaining leave. * * * * An only son, after quarrelling with his mother and father, comes [to the sangha, saying], "Let me go forth." Upon being told, "Come back after you have obtained leave," he says, "I'm not going! If you don't let me go forth, I shall burn down your monastery, or stab you with a sword, or cause loss to your relatives and supporters by cutting down the plants in their gardens, or kill myself by jumping from a tree, or join a gang of robbers, or go to another country." It is suitable to let him go forth in order to safeguard life. If his mother and father then come and say, "Why did you let our son go forth?" they should be informed of the reason for it, saying, "We let him go forth in order to safeguard life. You may confirm this with your son." * * * * Then, [one saying] "I shall jump from a tree," has climbed up and is about to let go with his hands and feet. It is suitable to let him go forth. * * * * An only son, having gone to another country, requests the going forth. If he had obtained leave before departing, he may be given the going forth. If he had not obtained leave, having sent a young monk to get [the parents] to give their leave, he may be given the going forth. If it is a very distant country, it is suitable to just give him the going forth and then send him with other bhikkhus to inform [the parents]. But the Kurundii states: 'if [the country] is far away and the way to it is [across] a great wilderness (or desert), it is suitable to give him the going forth, [thinking], "having gone there [later] we shall obtain leave [of the parents]."' * * * * If a mother and father have many sons and speak thus: "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of these boys you choose," then having examined the boys, he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. If an entire [extended] family or an entire village is given permission [by someone, saying], "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of the boys in this family or this village you choose," he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. * * * * 46053 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: Anyone can join and enjoy htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > We had a discussion about this a few years ago on DSG. > > As I remember it the Netti does say that it is better to have tanha > for nibbana than to have tanha for say woman. The commentary > explains that all tanha is akusala but some is not as bad as others.. > > We can see that almost all Buddhists have so much desire for quick > knowledge, it is inevitable that it is like this in the beginning > because tanha is all that wordlings know, it is conditioned to arise. > > Tanha can never show us the right way, but it could be a condition > to study Dhamma texts: and so we can see how akusala can be a > suporting condition for kusala to arise. > My opinion though is that unless tanha is seen (early on) as been > aksuala, that most people will try top develop the path with tanha > and avijja - and that is impossible. > > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your reply. I think 'Upanisa sutta' also include about 'wanting to be free from suffering' and 'arising of faith'. I like your examples. Examples are beautiful cars and beautiful women. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46054 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Matheesha wrote to Htoo: Matheesha: Hi Htoo, Thanks for that detailed explanation. H:> Contact is already included when cakkhuvinnana arises. > Again in naama-ruupa cakkhuppasaada is also included. So there is > no delay in 'naama-ruupa paccaya salaayatanaa' and also no delay > in 'salaayatana paccayaa phasso'. This is also right for 'phassa > paccayaa vedanaa'. M: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness." Matheesha continued: In the mahanidana sutta there is mention of how a foetus would die ie- no more arising of nama-rupa if -- snip -- But these are minor problems which miss the point of what this whole process is about. H:>> Because he sees naama, he sees ruupa. He does not depend on tanha, > lobha, upadaana, domanassa, abhijjhaa and he is liberated at that > moment' > It is temporary realization of dukkha sacca. It is teporary > removal > of samudaya sacca. It is temporary cessation of dukkha sacca. And > it > is temporary development of magga sacca or the path. > So there are all 4 sacca in yogi or meditator. But it is loki > sacca > and it is not yet supramundane. M: Hmm.. I dont agree with this entirely. To say that understanding/panna is the same as vimukti,release is not right. There is no nirodha sacca in the process you described above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But at least while pancupadanakkhandha or 5-clinging- aggregate is seen tanha and avijja are ceased to arise. There is cessation of avijja and tanha. I did not say it is nirodha that is genuine nirodha. Genuine nirodha is seen at magga, phala and experienced during nirodha-samapatti and it is after arahatta-cuti citta. I just said loki sacca. When such seeing of pancupaddanakkhandha become uninterrupted then consciousness will be in the pipe line. There always are flowing water into the stream. So before stream- entrantship is attained there are minor crooks and flows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: If you look at the upanisa sutta you will see that it has to go further after panna through the stages of nibbida etc to reach vimukti, to experience the unconditioned. There maybe moments without any surface lobha,dosa or moha, but this does not mean that the fetters to samsara have been broken. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I said is approaching to the foot of Meru. Seeing of pancupadanakkhandha is a requsite for higher naana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: Better not to give premature reassurances. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'premature reassurances?' Well I think there are many drowning. When some have straw they are at least to be praised that they have a future light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- M: IMO it takes development of other mental faculties to take the process further into vimukti, not just panna, but opinions might differ. metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do know that Dhamma is deep, large, wide and limitless. Dhamma should be learned as long as we are here. Some seem not to agree when Dhamma are being talked as if they are easy. Anyway a slice of brick, a piece of sand may help someone. Culapanthaka in his past was a farmer. He was ploghing in the peddy filed. The weather was hot and so he was sweaty. After ploughing he approached to the shade of a tree. He wiped out sweat with his garment. 'O! the cloth changed to a dirt one' 'What a great shock!' 'What a great change!' 'What impermanance!' When in his final life he was not able remember anything that were taught to him. The Buddha just gave him a cloth and asked him to rub. And that rubbing finally led him to attainment of arahatta magga nana along with abhinna. Sanna! Sanna does works. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:48am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 202 - Zeal/chanda (b) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] > > Chanda arises with the eight types of lobha-múla-citta. When > chanda arises with lobha-múla-citta it searches for the desirable > object, it needs that object. > > Although chanda is different from lobha which can only be of the jåti > which is akusala, when they arise together it is hard to distinguish > between them. When we like to obtain a pleasant object, lobha is attached > and it is chanda which can accomplish the obtaining of that desired > object. Lobha could not accomplish anything by itself. However, also when > we do not need to obtain an object we are attached to, there is > chanda accompanying the lobha-múla-citta. > ***** > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Nina, Very good explanation. I think this is the point where Sarah likes explanations on 52 cetasikas. When chandha and lobha are not well distinguishingly understood there arise a problem. My recent message to Robert K is related to the matter of chanda and lobha. With respect, Htoo Naing 46056 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I continue with our discussion: > ======================= > > > > Htoo: > > The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or > she > > will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will > > attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she > > follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if > > one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half > > month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 > > days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents > of > > defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. > > > > 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general > > statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or > > 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for > > average person and it is for most frequencies. > > > > There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at > > such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. > > Sukin: > I have been disinclined to find out what this Gaussian Bell is all about. I > do not see any relationship between the findings of science and > mathematics with Dhamma. But you seem to be so in this particular > case, so I wonder if you are not to some extent projecting significance > on to these figures which may not be there? I personally think that this > figure of 7 years, 7 days and so on is only symbolic. And that it signifies > a relatively short period of time in which, were the conditions right for > patipatti to arise regularly, then that person would reach the goal. > What is your idea of the "average person" here? What in terms of > parami and accumulated wisdom is your `average man', and is he also > Bahussuta? How do you know that you and I are in this average? Is it > helpful to think this way? Does it condition samvega and saddha or does > it arouse ambition and wrong understanding? > > I think our attention should instead be, on understanding as much as we > can, and not to overreach and try to imitate or otherwise to justify what > we believe in. > > Metta, > > Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, I just explained what Mahaasatipatthaana sutta say. If you do not believe it it is your right not to believe. The sutta says 7 years, 6 years, -- , -- , 7 days. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46057 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Just a point. You wrote: 'Sukinder: So you like to visualize and come to a conclusion about what might be going on in the mind of another person? ;-)' Some even shows explicitly that there is no tolerance. The idea of self is here and there. I did not misunderstand Robert K. I just included his idea. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46058 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana(equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your quotes. Rob M appreciated. Some appreciated. Even one who hates insinuations seems appreciated on one occasion. When we recognize the riding flow there is nothing to be attached. Apology for my crooked hidden messages. Anyway I do not have any self-memory. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: If someone who has attained path-knowledge says that magga citta can arise without samma-sankappa and it is possible that 7-path can also lead to magga nanna then I may change my mind. But up to now my belief is that lokuttara cittas are all on 8-path. 46059 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, In your message: 'Htoo:> I just simply said that > > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Interpretation and translation are not the same. I have already quoted the original piece of Pali. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not bother 7 days or 7 years or 7 lives or many lives. I just reveal what the sutta says. 46060 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > Discussion continued: > ========================== > > > > S=> > > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. > > ========================= > > Htoo: > > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > > following. > > =Sukinder: > Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there > is `following'. This may happen very rarely, but it is better than > mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or > even any level of kusala. And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that > his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he > is deluding himself. > > Metta, > > Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, This is very true. Rather than saying 'deluding himself' it should be said that he or she is not following satipatthaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46061 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:26am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 203 - Zeal/chanda (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda arises also with the two types of dosa-múla-citta. Chanda “searches” the object the dosa-múla-citta dislikes. Here we see more clearly that chanda is quite different from lobha which is attached to an object and which can never accompany dosa-múla- citta. Chanda does not accompany the two types of moha-múla-citta. One type of moha-múla-citta is accompanied by doubt (vicikicchå). Doubt has “wavering” as function, it is not sure about the object, and thus there cannot be at the same time chanda which searches for the object it needs. As we have seen, this type of moha-múla-citta also lacks “decision” (adhimokkha), which is sure about the object. As to the second type of moha-múla-citta, which is accompanied by restlessness or distraction (uddhacca-sampayutta), this type cannot be accompanied by chanda either. *** Note from Zeal/chanda(a): Sometimes the word chanda is used in a composite word such as kåmacchanda, sensuous desire, which is one of the five hindrances. This is a form of lobha. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46062 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Here is a part of our discussion. '> Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If > one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence > is the same. =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. Because this is truth. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46063 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing Dear Sarah, 'The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it's an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: "Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta." **** S: I think your `first-hand' and `second-hand' may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear, so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....'pali basics for dummies':). ============================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Primary object, secondary object is my idea. I do not think there will be any Pali for that. Even if there is, maybe this is coincidence. When we hard a 'sentence' there already have been many many cittas. So number them from 1 to infinity. The first citta is panca-dvaravajjana citta. Leave that. The first appreciation is 7 javana cittas that cittas know the arisen object given by avijjana citta down through sampaticchana, santirana and votthapana citta. That 1st 7 javana cittas do not know vaci-pannatti. My idea of primary object and secondary object is that there are many many cittas. There are many many vithi vara before actual understanding and grasping of the idea in the sentence. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46064 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message on musaavaada. '> That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under > musaavaada. ... S: I'd like to see a reference for this. Metta, Sarah' Dear Sarah, sorry for not providing reference. Anyway, I think it might well be my own summary. This may well be 'naming matter'. When summarised all 4 vaci-kamma come under the umbrella of 'vaci-ducarita'. If I say so you will no more be disturbed as compared with 'musaavaada' as 'the summary of vaci-akusala kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46065 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, ... S: How can there be any `seeing of these postures'? What is seen again? Please give the answer loudly for all to hear:). How are postures known, Htoo? By which door-way? What are the conditions for being aware of visible object or seeing consciousness? Is `seeing postures' one? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These will be in Dhamma Thread (1000+). The Buddha did preach 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: In reality, what is `specific posture'? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are just Dhamma. There is no Htoo, no Sarah, no self, no posture. But as soon as you finish reading this sentence you will be bending or straightening or sitting or standing or lying or moving or anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Are these concepts or realities? Please give the answer loudly again:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma Thread loudly say. Sampajaana pabba say all the details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Yes, `having gone to the forest....', not `go to the forest..'. Did he use this expression when speaking to lay people? Did he use it when speaking to all bhikkhus? Did he use it to Ananda all the time? Might he not say to us: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Texts readers and texts writers have different approaches. Your approach is like a text-writer while I am saying text-readers view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: `having gone to the swimming pool......school with your kids......theatre.......computer to check messages.....brisk walk in the park.......develop samatha and vipassana bhavana/ satipatthana. ` There is only ever the present moment whether here or there, so if there is no awareness and understanding right now of whatever dhamma is conditioned already to appear, then satipatthana cannot develop. Forget about the root of the tree, Htoo:-). Metta, Sarah p.s `Dispeller' 1589: "so ara~n~nagato vaa (`he, having gone to the forest'): this indicates that he is provided with an abode of the aforesaid kind." Mind you, we can help you find some nice forests when you come to Hong Kong....:). ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha. I like mountain and forest. Maybe one day. The moment of seeing pancupadanakkhandha is satipatthaana and it is also vipassanaa. When there are many of such moments these moment will condition what will arise next. With respect, Htoo Naing 46066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:03am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 203 - Zeal/chanda (c) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, *** Note from Zeal/chanda(a): Sometimes the word chanda is used in a composite word such as kåmacchanda, sensuous desire, which is one of the five hindrances. This is a form of lobha. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah (and Nina), There are different akusala dhamma. Kaamacchanda is just a form. It is to hinder jhaana, magga, phala, nibbana. With respect, Htoo Naing 46067 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 - Errors buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - There are typographical errors in 15 (4) and 17. Please replace the previous two paragraphs by the following : (4) Over-exerted(atipaggahita) cognizance is attacked by agitation (uddhacca): by curbing(vinigganhitvaa) it he abandons agitation, thus also cognizance does not become distracted. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). Thanks to Han Tun's careful reading that has caught my errors. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, > who develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with 16 > grounds (bases or vatthu -- thanks to Sarah's correction), into 10 > groups (I - X). Section i and Section ii describe the knowledges in I and > II. Section iii deals with the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing > (vodaana-naana) in III, and covers paragraphs 15 through 168. > However, most of these paragraphs are based on the paragraphs 19 - > 23. These "core" paragraphs are presented below and, because of > their importance, they should be studied very carefully so that the > remaining material may be clearly understood. > 46068 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo (& Nina), > Htoo: > I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti and great great somanassa'. > I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. ... S: I agree it wasn't a very good example to give, even if technically correct,. Actually it's quite interesting now I look at the texts. I was thinking of this passage from the Nina's book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Double check, triple check and multiple check never go wrong. Sometimes I do read old messages of myself and find errors and no remarks on that error. Now I will see your quoted book's part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah quoted Nina's book: "As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 8 lokuttara cittas. 4 are magga cittas or path- consciousness and 4 are phala cittas or fruition-consciousness. When these consciousness arise in the vicinity of 5 jhaana these 8 lokuttara cittas can be called as 'lokuttara jhana cittas'. They are also jhaana cittas. Because they are absorbed into nibbana in the same degree as in case of jhaana cittas but they are much much more purer and much much more powerful in terms of liberation. Jhaana temporaily liberate akusala while lokuttara jhaana cittas liberate permanently. There are 5 jhaanas. They are 1st jhaana, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th jhaanas. If there are all 5 jhaana factors then it is 1st, 4 is 2nd, 3 is 3rd, 2 is 4th and 1 is 5th. So in 5th jhaana there is only one jhaana factor and it is ekaggata. All arupa jhaanas have ekaggata as jhaana factors. So they can be called as 5th jhaana. Here 4th jhana, 5th jhaana and all arupa jhaana do not invlove piiti. So it seems like that 4th and 5th lokuttara jhaana cittas seem not have piiti. When it is viewed from jhaana side it is right. In the vicinity of 4th jhana and 5th jhana there is no piiti at all. When citta exits from 4th or 5th jhaana it looks jhaana cittas and sees that there is no piiti. And that paccavakkhana cittas do see that there are cittas and other namakkhandhas and they are impermanent and suffering and non-self and higher nana arise instantaneously and rockets up to magga citta. But 'I THINK PERSONALLY' that as soon as nibbana is seen there arise piiti, sukha and other associated lokuttara dhamma. That is why there are terminologies like lokuttara sukha, magga sukha, phala sukha etc etc. 4th and 5th lokuttara jhaana cittas do not have piiti. This is right from the side of jhaana. But I believe that there arise piiti. Seeing of nibbana is not like any other seeing. Here do not ask me whether I have seen it or not. But seeing nibbana is not like seeing of other dhamma. This even does not like seeing of naama and ruupa, and understanding of their characteristics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote continued: 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. **** S: I was rushing before when I sent you several posts and had never checked these refs she gives. You'll find them interesting so let me quote one for you here, going back a step: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will read it now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote: Vism XX1, 111: [THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S FACTORS, ETC] (Vism caps): "This knowledge of equanimity about formations governs the fact that the meditator keeps apart. It furthermore governs the difference in the[number of the] noble path's enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, the mode of progress, and the kind of liberation. For while some elders say that it is the jhana used as the basis for insight [leading to emergence] that governs the difference in the [number of] enlightenment factors, path factors, and jhana factors, and some say that it is the aggregates made the object of insight that govern it, and some say that it is the personal bent that governs it, yet it is only this preliminary insight and insight leading to emergence that should be understood to govern it in their doctrine. "To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry- insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far, I agree your quote. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's quote continued: For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy [piiti] and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy." ***** S: I think the Atthasalini passage is similar from memory. So as I understand from this, apart from the highest rupavacara and arupavacara lokuttara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are accompanied by piiti, but vipassana nanas up to (but not including) sankharupekkha nana(equanimity about formations) can be either accompanied by piiti or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Thanks for encouraging me to give this point more consideration than my rushed off comments before. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already rushed a reply to this same post. This is a thorough reply again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s On mistakes – yes, we all make lots of them. 1. Did you read my Musings on this topic? K.Sujin stresses she also makes lots and is happy to see them as it reminds her of the great, great knowledge of the Buddha. We can never know more than just a little taste of such knowledge. Please point out any of mine anytime, Htoo. Yes, better to stick to mistakes you find in our posts here for your examples:-). Nina, thank you for your extra Atth quote too. ================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah for your encouragement. Musings topics? I read some depending on availability of time. But do not remember whether I read this portion. With respect, Htoo Naing 46069 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Continuation of discussion on dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, Continuing with the discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin asked: > Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and > panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand > what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata > ditthi as if it is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(26.05.05) =Sukinder: :-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement. ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It has always been nice to leave a good mnessage like this one. Because there are questions that should be responded with counter questions. And there are questions that should be answered with evidence. And there are questions that should be answered with thorough explanations. And still there are questions that do not need to be answered at all. Likewise not every point needs to be responded. So it is justifiable to leave it alone and it is justifiable to say '':-) I'll just refrain from responding to the statement.'' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued to ask: > Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no > matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the > path be walked upon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. > There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or > whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and > such dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Maybe you could answer my question regardless of any `subtle sassata ditthi' that may be apparent in my statement? And if I continue to project any sassata ditthi in our discussions, you can also explain more? ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I have to answer I would answer it is true that if there were no right accumulation then The Buddha's teachings will not be understood and it will not be possible to walk up on the path as the path has not been understood as The Buddha's teachings have not been understood. I agree with you. I just teased you. Because you are so good at Dhamma that you will never allow any 'self' encroaching upon. That was why I teased you that there was subtle idea of 'self' in the form of non-self accumulating so and so dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > I just simply said that > 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she > will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: There is the Satipatthana Sutta, and there are innumerable interpretations of it, but only one will be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responded this on my rushed reply. Interpretation and translation are not the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) In other words, we are trying to determine which the correct interpretation is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We can read 'mahaasatipatthaana sutta' together if you want. What is sure is that 'The Buddha' is also known as 'Sugato' or 'Well Gone Well'. Sugato also includes the idea that The Buddha never said 'unfruitful speech' 'double-edged speech'. So you may be right that 'ONLY ONE WILL BE RIGHT'. What I have been posting are just 'transferred words'. This means that 'when a tape is played the same voice comes out'. Do not think in a complicated way that when batteries become weak voice will change. What I mean is that 'exact copy' is the same. Examples: 'Ruupa.m anattaa bhikkhave..' This 'copy' is always there and that when you say it 'it is it' and when I say it 'it is it' and when any other people say it 'it will sound -ruupa.m anattaa bhikkhave..' When I say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati' it is always 'g-v- g-p..' Here translation first speaks. Then interpretation speaks at both translation and interpretation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) One may have the correct interpretation and have absolutely no concern about 7 years, 7 days and so on. Or one may be so concerned about getting it in 7 days or 7 years and actually misunderstand the Sutta. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, I have replied this part. I do not bother whether it takes 7 days or 7 years or 7 lives or any time measurement. What I posted was that 'the sutta does say there will take 7 years, let alone 7 years if one does practice for 6 years, --- --- 7 days, one will at least attain one of 2 fruit. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I have been mocked 'not signing as mettena' at another site. 46070 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin (26.05.05) [note this date is not Sukin writing date but my reply date] Dear Htoo, Discussion continued: ========================== > > S=> > If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the > Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= > Htoo: > If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not > > following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Only when there is sati and panna could it be said that there is `following'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dead right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) This may happen very rarely, but it is better than mistaking lobha-mula citta ditthigata-sampayutta for satipatthana or even any level of kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma go in their own way. I do not need to worry and you do not need to worry. But what worry me is that we are 'selves' living in this world of 'prosperity of The Buddha teachings' and we should not miss the teachings even though there are no self at all from the start. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) And if the `meditator' goes about thinking that his 15, 30 or 60 minute session is a wholesome activity, then indeed he is deluding himself. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha Ha Ha. Drink a cup of tea. Light a cigarette. Lie relaxedly on an easy chair or on a dream bed. And then relax with sati and panna. No one can enripe any fruit. If anyone tries, the fruit will ruin. So do not force any sati and any panna. Because they can never be forced and brought up under our will. Even in jhaana matter cittas are not controllable. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46071 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin (26.05.05) Dear Htoo, Continuing with our discussion. ============================ > S=> > The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Of course, you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: ?? You mean `me' or the `ripe'? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Anyone. Because it is dhamma. Dhamma is not controllable. I say seriously. Mahaasatipatthana sutta says in the session of nivarana pabba and also in vedana pabba. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Only the Anagami doesn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Why? =Sukinder: No conditions? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good answer. I will take a note in the note book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being > addressed to the so called `ripe', ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(26.05.05) =Sukinder: No. But the Buddha was speaking to the ripe, wasn't he? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was smiling on your answer of 'No.'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we > may > not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is > a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not > `doing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Does this mean you agree? If so, to what extent? ============================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha Ha Ha. I agree. To the extent of right. I smiled because I like that statement of 'understanding' and at the time I was smiling I remembered 'not doing' at the same time. That is why I smiled and now why I laugh. Ha Ha Ha --- :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's > teachings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you never do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Intention arises with each citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is intention in terms of abhidhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: My concern mostly is only to `understand' what is said about the Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'only to understand'? So not 'doing' at all? Meditate Ananda, meditate meditate. Or else you will regret. This is our instruction to you. Meditate Cunda, meditate meditate. Or else you will regret. This is our instruction to you. These are not my words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) I don't presume that it will happen, though this is one condition for pariyatti, and when this does arise, it is accompanied by a level of sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'a level of sati'? Understandable! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) But even if there is in fact wrong understanding and I go away with the illusion of `knowing', still it is not from any presumption before hand about the activity. There is no control over how the words are presented and which phrase will condition what. ================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Message received. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) > Sukin: > Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all > about > and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship > between pariyatti and patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence is the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: :-)) Its nice to be in agreement. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have replied in my rushed message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Sukin > If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can > be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. > However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or > satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the > corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =Sukinder: :-) Does this mean agreeing? ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :D means smiling with open mouth upto both ears. I smile because of wordings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin (26.05.05) =Sukinder: Any idea of a `self' having to do something in order that satipatthana will arise. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally impossible. Because there is no self from the start. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46072 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, > Other rupa experienced through mind door are > 1. 5 panca pasada rupas > These are only known after learning. .... S: I don't understand your comment. Does this mean the cittas of a baby or animal do not experience pasada rupas or subtle rupas because they haven't been learned? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Say you were a devii. Then you died 70 years ago and you were reborn at manussa bhuumi or human realm and named Sarah. You might know the sense of photthabba as 1st javana. It was kaayavinnana citta. That citta does not know 'any pasaada ruupa'. Or you might very happy because you regained what you had lost as a hood or as a life or as an existence and this is lobha cittas and this is common to all including The Buddha-to-be in his last rebirth. These cittas do not know any pasaada ruupa. How can be 'pasaada' rupa primary object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Surely the function of sati is to be aware of what is being experienced by citta anyway, not to 'learn' to have new dhammas being experienced. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are following primary and secondary object where I say pasaada ruupa and 16 sukhuma ruupas seem not primary object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The same as with the 7 sense-door rupas....they arise and fall and are experienced regardless of any sati. ... > 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters ... S: Like very subtle rupas such as masculinity and femininity...they're there arising and falling and being experienced from time to time, but who knows? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do they really arise? If so they cannot arise more than a single moment. What I am asking is as mind-object. Not the ruupa itthatta bhava ruupa and purisatta bhaava ruupa. They arise and persist for 17 moments. But when they serve as an object they do not serve from 17 moments. Ask K Sujin this matter or ask Nina on this matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind > will > never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So > vaci- > vinatti is not a first-hand object. ... S: Ear-consciousness only ever hears sound. Thinking about the sounds may help us to intellectually understand vaci-vinatti, but I don't follow your reasoning here.....:/ Maybe you're saying that the hearing of sounds is a condition for vaci-vinnatti, but then all rupas are conditioned in various ways. You may be referring to the fact that it's an asabhava rupa and depends on the eight insepearable rupas, especially pathavi (earth element) to produce sound. Nina quoted from the Atthasalini before in a series on the difficult subject of body and speech intimation: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Asabhaava ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta." **** S: I think your `first-hand' and `second-hand' may just be a language point. Do you have a Pali term for this? Nina may have further ideas too. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have replied in my rushed message. primary and secondary are my words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s Thank you for your post on the Pali alphabet. It was nice and clear,so I printed it out to put close at hand for when checking dictionaries.....'pali basics for dummies':). ============================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These alphabet of Pali which never existed as Pali alphabet are exactly the same as Myanmar alphabet. Myanmar language has 33 alphabet. But in pure Myanmar language .t, .tha, .d, .dh, .n are not frequent. Because 'sound'- or 'voice'-wise we Myanmar have t, tha, d, dh, n. Almost the same. But the distinction between these 2 roles of 5 alphabet was taught me by a Venerable Sayadaw. Jinavamsa also taught me about 'force of air' and 'aspirated' 'unaspirated'. When Pali words are grammar related then I do have difficulty in finding them in the dictionary. Then I have to check possible 'root' word. 46075 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (423) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When aruupa jhaana or non-material absorption is considered to be achieved initial step is to develop 5th ruupa jhaana or 5th material absorption first. This has to be based on 9 kasinas. Aakaasa kasina or 'space' cannot be based as 5th ruupa jhaana to ascend up to 1st aruupa jhaana. 1st aruupa jhaana is unlimited space while aakaasa kasina is also a space there is no distinction between 2 objects and so 5th ruupa jhaana based on aakaasa kasina is not used for foundation of 1st aruupa jhaana. When one of 9 kasina is taken as the object of ruupa jhaana this has to ascend up to 5th ruupa jhaana. When 5th ruupa jhaana is reached it needs to become proficient in that 5th ruupa jhaana. So one has to be able to enter into and exit from 5th ruupa jhaana at will. At each exit jhaana factors and the object and the jhaana itself are also contemplated as paccavakkhanaa. When this is done it becomes evident that 5th ruupa jhaana is close to 4th ruupa jhaana. That is 5th ruupa jhaana with upekkha is close to sukha and as soon as it falls back to sukha then 5th ruupa jhaana will become 4th ruupa jhaana and there will be downgoing trend. So to prevent this the base object has to be changed. That is the foundation object has to be voided. Before this can be done, the existing object has to be expanded. This object has to cover the whole universe or this object has to be limitless or endless or measureless. This can happen with the power of 5th ruupa jhaana. At a time the object occupy everywhere and it becomes limitless and measureless. As this object is the base for 5th ruupa jhaana and it is close to the danger of falling back to 4th ruupa jhaana this object has to be dropped or eliminated or voided. With this intention and with continuous practise on existing jhaana at a time when there are right conditions there arise another object which is like the object of 5th ruupa jhaana in the character of limitlessness and measurelessness but it is emptied space and it is aakaasa of boundless or limitless domain. As soon as this limitless space arise and there are ekaggataa and upekkha with absorption then this can be called as 1st aruupa jhaana. This jhaana is the same as 5th ruupa jhaana with only difference of object, which is boundless space. As the name implies this jhaana is called 'aakaasa + ananta + ayatana' jhaana or 'akasanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The cittas that are arising is called akasanancayatana arupakusala cittas and the jhaana is called akasanancayatana arupa jhana. Jhana factor-wise there are only ekaggata and with upekkha vedana. So it can be counted as 5th jhaana. But as there is no recognizable rupa-related object this new jhana is called arupa jhana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46076 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (424) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When in 1st aruupa jhaana or 1st non-material absorption there is a continuous flowing of 1st arupa jhana citta. So in that 1st arupa jhana there are cittas and all these cittas are arupa jhaana cittas. With the exception of cittas of arupa brahmas all these 1st aruupa jhaana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu or hadaya ruupa or heart- base material. This is the only involvement od ruupa in aruupa cittas. Aruupa cittas do not deal with ruupa. But when in pancavokaara bhuumi or when beings have all 5 khandhas these aruupa jhaana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu. There is an object for arrupa jhaana cittas. That object is pannatti. It is the idea of 'boundless space' which derived from voiding of spread-object of 5th rupa jhana. As the object is pannati it does not arise and it does not fall away. What arise is citta and what fall away is also citta. There are associated mental factors in 1st aruupa jhaana cittas. They are a) 7 universal mental factors b) 3 of 6 particular mental factors (vitakka, vicara, piti-voided) c)19 universal beautiful mental factors d) 1 pannindriya cetasika or wisdom-mental factor --- 30 cetasikas or 30 mental factors May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46078 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (425) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first arupa jhana has to be practised to become proficient in that jhana. This take the same exercise as in cases of rupa jhana. When this is done there finds that the object boundless space is close to the danger of re-appearing of the rupa-related object of rupa jhaana that is spread-object of kasina. If this happen there will draw back down to lower rupa jhaana through arising of inappropriate dhamma. To stop this danger of ruupa jhana re-arising one has to avoid that object called 'boundless space'. With this dispassion the practitioner tries not to attend on boundless space. When he repeatedly enter and exit and contemplate on 1st aruupa jhaana he finds that the object is close to the danger of ruupa jhaana. And he tries again and again not to attend to that boundless space. At a time when there are right conditions he see that there are many cittas that are attending boundless space. Instead of attending boundless space now the practitioner attend to 'cittas' that take boundless space. Now the practitioner see 1st arupa jhaana cittas and these cittas become the object. As there is just ekaggata as jhana factor and upekkha vedana and when the mind absorbed into the object of these 1st arupa jhana cittas the absrobed citta that see these 1`st arupa jhaana citta is 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. 1st arupa jhaana cittas take boundless space as their object. In 2nd arupa jhana cittas the object is 1st aruupa jhana cittas. The 1st jhaana cittas take or stay at boundless space. This is the thaana or space of 1st arupa jhaana cittas. The thaana or the place of 2nd aruupa jhana citta is 1st jhaana cittas. When the thaana or place of 1st jhaana citta is boundless then thaanii or 1st arupa jhaana cittas can also be assumed as boundless. As these 1st aruupa jhaana cittas are boundless, limitless, measurement less they are called boundless-consciousness. The sphere that 2nd arupa jhaana cittas take is called 'the sphere of boundless consciousness. These 1st jhaana cittas are consciousness or vinnna cittas. So this new arupa jhaana citta is called 'vinnana + ananta + ayatana' citta. Ananta means boundless, vinnaana here means '1st aruupa rupakusala cittas, and ayatana means 'the sphere of 2nd jhaana citta'. So this new arupa jhaana citta or 2nd aruupa jhana citta is called 'vinnaananancayatana arupakusala citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, I could not follow all the threads, but I remember a recent Vis. Tiika text:to Vis. XIV, 158: The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, and after that stage it is abandoned. Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. I cannot continue the thread, because I go away on a trip Saturday until next week wednesday. Nina. op 26-05-2005 12:14 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > PS: If someone who has attained path-knowledge says that magga citta > can arise without samma-sankappa and it is possible that 7-path can > also lead to magga nanna then I may change my mind. But up to now my > belief is that lokuttara cittas are all on 8-path. 46082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 nilovg Hi Tep, Thanks a lot. I cannot contribute much since I go away from Saturday until next week Wednesday, appreciating, you did a lot of typing, Nina op 26-05-2005 05:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, 46083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara feelings nilovg Dear Sarah and Htoo: I checked Abhidhammattha Sangaha by Ven. Narada, maybe you could compare b.b.'s Guide: Narada p. 153: Thritytwo lokuttara jhanas are accompanied by somanassa. Thus, when we count lokuttara cittas as forty, the other eight are accompanied by upekkhaa. I do not see any problem here. Nina. op 26-05-2005 08:52 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Dear Htoo (& Nina), > > --- htootintnaing wrote: >> Htoo: >> >> I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti >> and great great somanassa'. >> >> I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. 46084 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I could not follow all the threads, but I remember a recent Vis. Tiika > text:to Vis. XIV, 158: > > The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor > of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is > accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth > stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied > thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, > and after that stage it is abandoned. > Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci > sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m > samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. > > It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes (kadaaci) is > without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. > > I cannot continue the thread, because I go away on a trip Saturday until > next week wednesday. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. When you are back please check this message. Thanks for your quoting on tiikaa. I believe that in lokuttara 2nd jhaana cittas there is no vitakka as jhaana factor but there is sammasankappa as path factor. Vitakka as jhaana factor is not required from jhaana object to be taken. But just before arising of magga citta which takes nibbana as its object manodvaravajjana citta is applied to nibbana. This application is done by vitakka. This vitakka does not apply to jhaana object but to nibbana. Other kusala cittas do the same while they progressively matured and matured up to gotrabhuu and then nibbana is fully appreciated with magga citta. Otherwise the path will not be atthangika-magga but sattangika-magga. But this is never heard in any setting of Dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 46085 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 V... upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Phil (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/26/05 12:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Ph: Ok, I guess I was wrong above - shifting in the seat to be more comfortable isn't intense. And the dictionary above says clinging is an intensified form of craving. This is still confusing to me, because khandas are always clinging, but rarely in what seems to be an intense way. ======================== I think of clinging as kind of a hardened, habituated craving - a developed "tendency to go after," and I consider that habituated tendency to have repeated tanha, itself, as a condition for its development. But clinging need not be intense - it can be very subtle in fact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46086 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 V... upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/26/05 12:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Thanks Howard for that "we start where we are, not where we want to be." Interesting - that'll stick with me, though I'm not sure I agree. There's so much ignorance where I am now that I think starting a formal practice of any kind would just be splashing around in the mud. But maybe not. You could be right. I am keeping an open mind about meditation. ======================== Meditation is only one very important aspect of the practice that we start with, and that we continue with. There is also careful attention to sila, serious study and contemplation of the Dhamma, ongoing mindful attention to whatever arises at any time, and watchful monitoring at contact for our reactions, attempting to desist from akusala reaction and encourage kusala. Bhavana is multi-pronged cultivation. As I see it, Dhamma practice is not a "one-trick pony". ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46087 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/26/05 4:23:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 ----------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. I'll do that soon. ---------------------------------------- I think we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to seeing, visible object and conceptualising, even though we use different language. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I believe so as well. -------------------------------------- Good to see you back, Howard. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ------------------------------------- Htoo's really taken your no 1 spot :/ ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, GOOD! ;-)) [More time for "practice" for me!!] ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46088 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard RESENDING Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 5/26/05 4:23:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I'd be glad if you'd look at the comments and quotes in this fairly recent post of mine and add any comments: #45076 ========================= I just read the post, and I find that I have no comments to add except to confirm that, yes, we are on the same page on this matter. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46089 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka Evan_Stamato... Cosmique, Indeed there is a transcript of the proceedings. I was also interested in reading this a while back and ordered the book from Sri Lanka. I will look it up when I go home and email the details. Metta, Evan 46090 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 3:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: question on seeking permission from parents Evan_Stamato... "Permission from both parents is needed." This might work well in Buddhist countries but not so well in Western countries where parents are more likely to follow primitive fear-based religions. They would not fully understand the request for going forth. Metta, Evan 46091 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' I'll offer you this from the Maha-Mangala (SN II.4) sutta to reply to your claim that the Buddha didn't want us to disrupt our daily routines. A deity addresses the Buddha: =================================================== Many devas and humans beings give thought to protection, desiring well-being. Tell, then, the highest protection. =================================================== The Buddha then goes on to list such activities as: =================================================== Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection. =================================================== He then goes on to list about 30 more conditions, and ends the sutta with: =================================================== Everywhere undefeated when >acting in this way<, (emphasis mine) people go everywhere in well-being: This is their highest protection. =================================================== I guess there's the possibility that Bhikkhu Bodhi just recommended it for us to work with, not for us to follow to the letter. It's hard to reconcile this sutta with other instructions like to contemplate the four foundations of mindfulness. It would be a new daily activity for me to do this contemplation, in fact to follow the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole. This brings up the question: If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which contradict basic Jewish beliefs? I guess there's no one checking to make sure my truths are consistent, I don't want to be involved in organized Judaism very much. I guess this will be much like a look and see unless I get some feedback here. > A: > The problem is, eventually I am going to have to be practising > the four foundations of mindfulness (something I have wanted to do > continuously on the *streets*), and maybe even jhana, so how can > this look right? I mean, best case scenario I follow Joe > Goldstein's "The Experience of Insight" I recently got, and set > myself up to meditate a little bit in the evening as a retreat-like > quiet environment. But I really want this to be continual. If you > follow, you start to see that keeping a practise of Judaism while > doing this seems quite out of synch. > ------------------------------------- > > Are you going to practise the Buddha's teaching the way the ancient > commentators understood it, or the way modern commentators have > understood it? In the former way, you can continue a normal, > unremarkable, lifestyle - provided only that you set aside some time > for learning the Dhamma. > > However, if you are going to follow modern-day gurus - who teach > things that were never in the Tipitaka - then daily life will > be disrupted. I want my daily life to be based around practise, to be practise. Didn't the Buddha say he revealed a "holy life, utterly perfect and pure?" As far as one can practise this life as a layperson, I would like to. > > ----------------------------------------------- > A: > I have two questions in relation to this sutta. One, what is > the purpose of carrying out the family tradition. Is it to keep > peace within the family, "free of fear," as some translations of the > sutta say, and if so, is carrying out the family tradition the only > way to do this? > -------=---------------------------------------- > > If you are naturally inclined towards carrying on the family > tradition (or any other normal tradition), then why not? On the > other hand, if you find your lifestyle to be unnatural and > burdensome, then you will naturally, and effortlessly, seek out > something different. Well I recently followed the instructions for renunciation in a book titled the same by a guy named "T. Prince" and that felt very traditional and in line with my, well, liking of non-worldliness, but I couldn't really keep the instructions going without reading the book, that is, reflecting on and abstaining from all types of wrong speech, renouncing sense desire, then being detached and acting with mindfulness and awareness.. it was impermanent just like my original traditionality with vipassana meditation was, but shouldn't I be able to practise it till the end of the Noble Eightfold Path? Just like my meditation I wish this to return with time, or to be able to reflect on how I did it so I may act in that way again. > > ----------------------- > A: > Eg I am thinking renunciation, eliminating all forms of > wrong speech, observing the moralities might help me feel secure if > I were to do it. At least this is what it is said one should feel > after carrying such out. Keep in mind the difficulty of speaking > words that 'go to the heart' and are gentle and pleasing to the ear. > I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make > things OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual > practise and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward > and not good relations with. > ------------------------ > > There is no need to upset your father - any more than there is need > for a spiritual practice outside of normal daily life. It is worth > repeating: according to the ancient texts, the Buddha's teaching is > all about understanding the way things are - it is not about making > things the way they aren't. I'm not familiar with the ancient texts, but it really seems that I gained a lot by following the teachings at least by putting aside time, as you said, in this case not for just learning, but for meditation practise. Without this, I have no spiritual practise, I do not feel in tune with seeing ultimate realities, or just seeing a deeper level of reality, feeling and seeing as one does when he has a working spiritual practise. > > --------------------------------- > A: > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta > when in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of > mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted > us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder > that, but know? > ---------------------------------- > > You wouldn't be the first person to 'not know.' How many of us > (including myself) have mucked up their lives by trying to be a good > Buddhist? It doesn't work that way. I proved it. If you take a fool > out of his city office and his suburban brick-veneer, and put him in > a one-room shack with a veggie garden, what do you get? You get a > fool in a shack with a garden. > > Ken H > :-) > Yeah I've messed up my life but mostly after things worked out nicely for weeks and months, and then let up. Trying to recreate past conditions is where I mucked things up. Ken, I tell you, I learned and had good experiences that validated truths of the Buddha's teachings through meditation, and helped me see things that very few others do see and understand. I know I am taking somewhat of a wrong approach to impatiently pick up the books that are supplements to B.B.'s book "Noble Eightfold Path" but each time I do it changes things for the better.. it should, in the end, be just a matter of getting things together. Peace, A.L. 46092 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Hi Phil, At the risk of going too far, I would say clinging is all about belief. The upadana khandhas are objects of clinging. We cling to form, feeling, perception, production and consciousness. Also we cling to concepts and formations. In other words, we have views, beliefs, and assumptions about all this which we 'hold tightly', 'cling to'. It is the basis of wrong view. But neither craving nor clinging are, themselves, suffering, except in the sense of being unsatisfactory. Suffering itself, is unpleasant feeling. Both craving and clinging condition unpleasant feeling because what we want we can't get and what we think is wrong. However, Dependent Arising doesn't go into this. We have to look at the Four Noble Truths for that angle. Larry 46093 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline philofillet Hi Andrew A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which contradict basic Jewish beliefs? Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no Buddhists. A Jew's cittas and cetasikas are no different from a Buddhist's, I guess. I find it very liberating to let go of these stories. I know that "letting go" of these concerns is not an option for you - they are in your face - but I wonder if a deepening appreciation of cittas and cetasikas will lighten the load for you by reminding you that beyond conventional truths there are ultimate truths, always, in every moment. Anyways, good luck with this, Andrew. I am living thousands of miles away from my family and can hardly get around to writing a letter home so I respect your consideration of these very real (but ultimately not real) concerns. Of course the Buddha did teach of the duty we have to our parents, no matter what. (Although he taught Abhidhamma which reminds us that our parents don't exist in reality - another one of those delightfully paradoxical points.) Metta, Phil 46094 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 6:00pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet HI Larry > At the risk of going too far, I would say clinging is all about belief. > The upadana khandhas are objects of clinging. We cling to form, feeling, > perception, production and consciousness. Also we cling to concepts and > formations. In other words, we have views, beliefs, and assumptions > about all this which we 'hold tightly', 'cling to'. I don't know, Larry. This does sound like going too far to me. I mean, day in, day out, there is clinging to form, to feeling, but we don't think about it or have conscious views about it. But I am confused about what "views" means - does failing to see the truth of khandas, or realities, constitute a view? In that case you would be right. By the way, I found this SN 22.5 which helps me to understand craving and clinging: "One seeks delight in form, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As a consequence of this, delight arises. Delight in form is clinging..." So the "seeks delight in form" would be craving, I guess. I guess the akusala forms of piiti (zest) and chanda (zeal) come in here as well. There are passages in Nina's chapter on piiti about piiti motivating citta to reach for the object. Or was that chanda? Nevermind - I will reread those chapters. In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I misunderstand what "views" means. Metta, Phil 46095 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & all, > > S: We were discussing any textual references for the custom of `pouring > water' and I mentioned Tirokudda Sutta and commentary. I believe the > following verses are often quoted during such services as the sharing of > merit with the departed: > > 1.Tirokudda Sutta (The Without-the-Walls Discourse), Khuddakapaatha, > (PTS-~Naa.namoli transl) > > "As water showered on the hill > Flows down to reach the hollow vale, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > As river-beds when full can bear > The water down to fill the sea, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin." > ... Actually, I had completely forgotten about this issue! It's good that you keep good notes! ;-) Thanks so much for the sutta quotes, commentaries, and other sources for the ritual of pouring water. These sources do explain where the ritual originated and how it has been used in various instances through history, but it is still just a ritual, right? I read the sutta you quoted that uses the metaphor of pouring (adjective not verb) water to illustrate the passing of merit on to the deceased in the ghost realm, but I don't think it is saying that if one pours water then merit is going to be automatically transferred. If that was the case the ghost realm would be getting a lot of merit because people pour water in one manner or another everyday! ;-)) You also didn't relate this information back to the original topic of discussion: K. Sujin. I was saying that K. Sujin doesn't appear to be as stodgy and orthodox as she as painted as being because she recommended the ritual of pouring water. Even with all her talk of "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced by her Thai culture. Did you wish to address that matter or just stick to the `pouring of water' subject? (I am doing a lot of reading of K. Sujin presently, and taking notes, so I would be interested in your feedback on this one issue also.) Metta, James 46096 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline philofillet Hi again, Andrew and all > Ph: I know > that "letting go" of these concerns is not an option for you - they > are > in your face - but I wonder if a deepening appreciation of cittas > and > cetasikas will lighten the load for you by reminding you that beyond > conventional truths there are ultimate truths, always, in every > moment. An afterthought. I know you know this already, but some people don't understand that reducing ourselves and other people to nama and rupa *does not* mean that there is a dehumanizing or coldness. The loving- kindness and compassion that we feel are just as real (more real in my opinion) as in the context of narratives. There are fewer obstacles to a pure appreciation of other people, fewer obstacles to really and deeply taking care of them, sometimes free from soial obligations, sometimes in the context of social obligations. Metta, Phil 46097 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Phul) --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: <..>Perhaps you mean, > `Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view'?? > > T: I meant ditthupadana. .... S: Thank you for clarifying. This is of course one of the four kinds of clinging – clinging to (wrong) views. [Phil, yes, upaadaana is a stronger kind of craving (tanhaa). The 4 kinds of upaadaana are: 1) kaamupaadaana – sensuous clinging 2) di.t.tupaadaana – clinging to (wrong) views 3) siilabbatupaadaana – clinging to rites and rituals 4) atta-vaadupaadaana – clinging to personality belief.] ***** > S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. > > Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: > 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? > 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? <...> > T: <...> > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what > the > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). > > This issue is not easy to be resolved, Sarah. ... S: I don’t believe it’s a question of anyone’s words but what can be tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is seen is visible object. That’s it. All that’s ever heard is sound. All that’s ever touched is hardness/softness/roughness/smoothness, heat/cold, motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn’t you agree? I agree that we should pay very good attention to what is taught in the suttas. Are we taught that anything else is seen, heard and so on? I don’t think so. Just briefly from the suttas you raise: MN137, Salayatana Vibhanga Sutta ‘On seeing a form with the eye....’ ‘On hearing a sound with the eye....’ ‘On smelling an odour with the nose...’ ‘On tasting a flavour with the tongue...’ ‘On touching a tangible with the body...’ ‘’On cognizing a mind-object...’ ..... MN148 Chachakka Sutta “ ‘The six external bases should be understood’......There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object base....’ .... Let me pause there and wait for any further clarification from you of which aspects in these suttas you believe are at variance with the answers to the questions I raised concerning paramattha dhammas. I’d be happy to discuss these suttas further with you to try and iron out any different understandings. ..... > > The Dialogue Continues > ------------------------------------ > > S: As we read elsewhere in suttas. all wrong views stem from a belief in > > self including annihilationist views.<"The view `self exists for me' > arises > in him as true and established; or the view `no self exists for me' > arises > in him as true and established; or the view `I perceive self with self' > arises in him as true and established...."I perceive not self with > self'....'I > perceive self with not-self...' > > > S: So we see these are all various forms of sakkaya ditthi. When > someone says `no self exists for me' here, it is still the `me' or self > that > exists now and with the idea as I mentioned before that there are no > conditioned dhammas, no kamma, no rebirth. In other words, it is quite > the opposite of what we mean when we refer to dhammas as being > anatta, conditioned, beyond control and so on as I think you suggested. > > T: It seems to me that you have grasped the Anatta principle pretty well > > now. But how should I understand your earlier statement ? <"The > concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. > Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an > illusion.> When you wrote "there is nothing to be taken as self", > wasn't it > the same as `no self exists for me' ? .... S: Not at all. I’ve never written anything along those lines:-)). As I’ve stressed all along, when I write ‘there is nothing to be taken as self’ or anything similar, it’s just my paraphrase of ‘all dhammas are anatta’ and I always make reference to the khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas in this context. There hasn’t been any change but I appreciate such phrases can easily be misunderstood out of context of the rest of the message. It’s the same when we read the texts, I think. For example, Lisa quoted from the Vism: ‘But here there is no human being to be found’. Again, out of context of the description of the marionette which merely consists of mentality-maeriality, it can easily be misconstrued perhaps. Or lines from the commentaries I quoted about ‘it is not-self’ and so on. > Thank you much for the consistent attention to details and the great > energy you have demonstrated. I have a lot to learn from you here. ... S: Likewise and I mean that most sincerely, Tep. I appreciate your approach to study and discussions very much. You really contribute a lot to the list. Again, please don’t mind if you get a little irritated or impatient with any of us from time to time...it’s oh, so natural:). Metta, Sarah p.s you raised an interesting point in #45825 when you started to read some of Htoo’s DT’s through my eyes:). As Htoo knows, I think that most of his DTs are excellent and U.P. is full of them these days. There are a few, however, which I find very ‘questionable’ and just put aside and then are some which I like , but nit-pick over. Then there are some like the ones you refer to which I think are interesting because they could be written as you suggest with the ideas of ‘lobha’ and ‘a self’ who is directing the jhana activities’ OR it could just be conventional language and quite ok. For example, just as a piano player has to develop skills and practice exercises, so does the jhana practioner when it comes to the vasis. This is why, as it says in the sutta I quoted in Musings1, one has to really question someone at length to determine their understanding and then its only if we have developed enough wisdom ourselves to know:-). It was an excellent question....I hope Htoo may still comment on #45825, but I'm fairly confident he will give the ‘correct’ answers in paramattha terms, so that’s why I didn’t ‘nit-pick’ these ones:-). I do like it when he stresses that there is no jhana practitioner and that jhana states are as conditioned as any other dhammas and just as anatta. Where Htoo and I are far more at ‘odds’ with a huge chasm is with regard to how samatha is developed at all. For example, I don’t find all the posts about kasinas without any emphasis at all on understanding or how the objects condition calm of any value. At least when it comes to satipatthana, we’re communicating:). (I know he won't be deterred by any of my comments!!). How about you, Tep? Which DTs do you find helpful? What are your comments on the texts you read at Zolag? Do quote/raise any qus or comments anytime. No need for any agreement here:). =============================================== 46098 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:12am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 204 - Zeal/chanda (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As regards ahetuka cittas, “rootless” cittas, chanda does not accompany these types of cittas. Seeing-consciousness, an ahetuka vipåkacitta which sees visible object, does not need chanda in order to perform its function of seeing. Sampaìicchana-citta which merely “receives” the object which was seen by seeingconsciousness does not need chanda in order to perform its function of receiving. It is the same with santíraùa-citta and the other ahetuka cittas, they do not need chanda in order to perform their functions. If the functions of paìisandhi (rebirth), bhavanga (lifecontinuum) and cuti (dying) are performed by ahetuka citta(1),the citta is not accompanied by chanda. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 11. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46099 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum sarahprocter... Hi James, > Actually, I had completely forgotten about this issue! It's good that > you keep good notes! ;-) Thanks so much for the sutta quotes, > commentaries, and other sources for the ritual of pouring water. > These sources do explain where the ritual originated and how it has > been used in various instances through history, but it is still just a > ritual, right? .... S: As I wrote recently in a post to Lisa, my understanding of ‘ritual’ has more to do with the mental states than with the outer actions. I gave the example of going to the temple and paying respects in front of a Buddha statue. It could be ‘just a ritual’ with all sorts of wrong ideas, or their could be deep appreciation and reflection on the Buddha’s virtues. I think that whilst participating in any ceremony, we can only know for ourself what is going one. How do you see it? ... >I read the sutta you quoted that uses the metaphor of > pouring (adjective not verb) water to illustrate the passing of merit > on to the deceased in the ghost realm, but I don't think it is saying > that if one pours water then merit is going to be automatically > transferred. If that was the case the ghost realm would be getting a > lot of merit because people pour water in one manner or another > everyday! ;-)) .... S: :-)). As I understand, nothing is passed on as such, but one just has the intention that any petas (or other beings) may share or have the chance to appreciate the gift. It’s similar to the idea of ‘anumodana’ which is used so often in Buddhist countries when one rejoices in others’ merit. (see ‘anumodana’and ‘Merit-sharing’ in U.P. if you have time). Of course, only beings in certain realms, such as petas, may have a chance to rejoice and then there is of course no way of knowing. Yes, when we just run the kitchen tap, there’s no dana involved and nothing to rejoice in even if we have an intention that beings might rejoice!! .... > You also didn't relate this information back to the original topic of > discussion: K. Sujin. I was saying that K. Sujin doesn't appear to be > as stodgy and orthodox as she as painted as being because she > recommended the ritual of pouring water. Even with all her talk of > "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced > by her Thai culture. Did you wish to address that matter or just > stick to the `pouring of water' subject? .... S: Well I was probably sticking strictly to the texts in light of the comments you’ve made about mis-interpretations and voting with my keyboard fingers for the New ‘brown rice and tofu’ James to continue without any provocation from me:-). I think she tries to just point out what’s what. She never says we should do anyting in particular, but just understand the particular mental states at such ‘rituals’ and to understand the value of any wholesome states including generosity of various kinds such as when we let others ‘share’ the merit. I’m not sure the custom of pouring water is so common in Thailand – much more in Sri Lanka in my limited experience. I think we are all influenced by our culture (inc. K.Sujin as you say) and I believe her response to Andrew L, for example, would be to develop more understanding of dhammas while following along one’s ordinary (or ‘influenced’) lifestyle and traditions if he wishes ...easily and naturally. .... (I am doing a lot of reading > of K. Sujin presently, and taking notes, so I would be interested in > your feedback on this one issue also.) .... S: It’s true that whenever we paraphrase or even quote anyone, it is according to our understanding and interest – we all pick out different points to agree or disagree with. I hope you do get to directly address your own points and questions one day. (You may like to listen to the discussion that we’ll be uploading soon. It’s mostly with Nina, Jon, Kom and TomW.) Metta, Sarah ====== 46100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more texts. Can you compare the Burmese Tiika text, which is under lokuttara viññaa.na?: Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca paadakaadiniyamena kadaaci sammaasa"nkappaviraho siyaa na pana virativiraho kaayaduccaritaadiina.m samucchindanavaseneva ariyamaggassa pavattanatoti niyataviratitaa. As I said: >> It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes > (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. Why is the term sammaasa"nkappa used here? Does it not denote a Path factor? Could you or Kel ask your Burmese teachers? As to sevenfold lokuttara Path, this is explained as without pitti, in the Atthasalini, (II, under Path-consciousness, english p. 307). Seven or eightfold lokuttara Paths. In the olden days different teachers had different opinions as Buddhaghosa mentioned. Thus, it is a difficult subject. But here is not mentioned: without sammasankappa, and in that case it would be sixfold lokuttara. Now, this sounds strange to me. Nina. op 26-05-2005 20:42 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: I believe that in lokuttara 2nd jhaana cittas there is no vitakka as > jhaana factor but there is sammasankappa as path factor... .... > Otherwise the path will not be atthangika-magga but sattangika-magga. > But this is never heard in any setting of Dhamma. 46101 From: nina Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 161, 162 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 161, 162. Intro: The Visuddhimagga first mentions the two roots of lobha and moha, which are the roots of the lobha-muula-cittas. We should remember that lobha-muula-cittas are also accompanied by shamelessness, ahirika, recklessness, anottappa, and restlessness, uddhacca, which accompany each akusala citta. Here, the Visuddhimagga deals with the first type of lobha-muulacitta, and this is associated with wrong view, di.t.thi. When lobha-muula-citta arises it is infatuated by the object and it cannot give it up. It does not see the impurity of lobha and it does not see the consequences of akusala. It is ignorant of the nature of akusala and it is restless, there is no calm. ***** Text Vis.161: (xxxix) By its means they are greedy, or it itself is greedy, or it is just the mere being greedy, thus is it 'greed'. (xl) By its means they are deluded, or it itself is deluded, or it is just the mere being deluded, thus it is 'delusion'. Text Vis.162.: Of these, 'greed' has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). ------- N: The Tiika refers to lobha that does not get rid of an object by the adherence of Œthis is mine¹. Because of lobha we want to possess the objects we experience. Monkey lime was used by hunters to catch monkeys. The monkey would stick to a tree with his paws and feet and he would be unable to free himself. Evenso, when lobha gets hold of an object it cannot let go of it and it is trapped. -------- Text Vis.: Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. ------- N: As to the expression dye of lamp-black, the Pali term raago that is used here means Œdye¹ and Œattachment¹. Dye made from lampblack is extremely hard to get rid of. Evenso attachment is extremely stubborn, hard to get rid of. The Tiika adds that it is hard to be freed from it. ----------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. ---------- N: The Tiika explains Œenjoyment¹ here as assaada di.t.thi, wrong view associated with enjoyment. As we read in Vis. XIV, 91: ³When a man is happy and content in placing wrong view foremost of the sort beginning 'There is no danger in sense desires' (M.i,307)...² The Co. to the Book of Analysis, the ŒDispeller of Delusion¹ (Ch 17, 2453, p. 2578) explains that assaada di.t.thi is eternity view, (sassatadi.t.thi). In this case he thinks that sense desires and pleasant objects last, he does not realize that they arise and fall away and are thus dukkha, unsatisfactory. -------- Text Vis.: Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking [beings] with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. ------- N: When one does not see the danger of clinging it is accumulated all the time. There are conditions for its arising again and again, and thus the cycle of birth and death will continue. ****** Conclusion: In the Dhammasangani (§ 1059) almost hundred synonyms of lobha are given and these are explained in the Expositor (II, Part II, Ch II, p. 467). It is called genetrix (janikaa), Œbecause greed gives birth to beings in the round of life renewed.¹ So long as lobha has not been eradicated there are conditions for rebirth. One of the synonyms of lobha is Œvisattikaa¹, diffused. The Expositor explains: ¹Visattikaa is spread out, diffused, extensive, compelling, deceptive, misleading. poison-bearing, poison-rooted, poison-fruited, poison-enjoying, permeates; or, craving is spread out, extended over sights, sounds, tastes, tangibles, ideas, over family, over a multitude.¹ Lobha is like poison that permeates our body, but we do not notice it as poisonous. We cling to all objects experienced through the senses and the mind-door. We cling to sense impressions such as seeing or hearing, we cling to life. We usually do not notice it that we cling to seeing or hearing. These cittas fall away immediately and afterwards we are usually engrossed in thinking about concepts such as the shape and form of people and things. One of the synonyms of lobha is Œinfatuation of mind¹, citassa saraago. The Expositor explains: ¹Infatuation of mind¹ means that the term described above is not of a permanent being, but only of consciousness.¹ We take lobha for self, for Œmy lobha¹, but this synonym reminds us that it is only a cetasika accompanying citta, arising because of the appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. 46102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 nilovg Hi Phil and Larry, the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. See also the Vis. and tiika today. Nina. op 27-05-2005 03:00 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that > clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so > prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting > away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I > misunderstand what "views" means. 46103 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew and Phil, I do not know much about the Talmud, but as to what I heard, it is very good sila. Very practical for daily life and composed with so much kindness and compassion. You do not have to follow all the rules, but you can take the essence out of it. You remember that my first question to you was about the Talmud? There are stories of rabbis in Judaism which contain so much old, oriental wisdom. Wise, practical lessons. Just delightful. We can appreciate them and interprete them with the Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma and social life, this is not a contradiction and we can come to understand this more deeply. When we read in Buddhist texts about family tradition, they usually refer to the tradition of generosity. Nina. op 27-05-2005 02:48 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in > what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist > principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which > contradict basic Jewish beliefs? > > Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a > good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. > In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no > Buddhists. 46104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pouring of Water in the texts (was: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Sum nilovg Hi James, about Kh Sujin. She will always stress that what matters are the cittas which motivate doing this or that such as pouring water. Are they kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When following certain customs she likes to help people with kusala cittas, and she will make people pay attention not to cling to rituals or indulging in superstition. It is the same when paying respect to the Budha's relics in India. People may be superstitious or cling to the relics. They are all that is left of the Buddha, but the best respect is developing satipatthana. We look at the relics, but only visible object is seen. Kh. Sujin helps us to sober up. Nina. op 27-05-2005 05:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Even with all her talk of > "beings and people don't exist", she appears to be greatly influenced > by her Thai culture. 46105 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Sukin, Htoo, Tep & all) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sukin, would you please thank Kh Sujin for her very clear explanation. > I did not suggest that the Vis. reference did > not seem to point to moments of satipatthana, but I only quoted the > samatha > part: piiti with the object. > Tep, also the first jhana is referred to. > When jhanacitta has just fallen away, the yogavacara should and can > consider > the jhanafactors that are with the jhanacitta. They have just fallen > away > and their characteristics can appear to the citta with sati sampajañña. > When > he is very skilful, he can attain higher stages of jhana. ... S: I also understand from her that before jhana, panna knwows which object brings more and more calm and kusala. Immediately after jhana, the jhana factors are known clearly, such as vitakka or piiti. This is possible at this time because of the strength of the absorption and jhana factors. Before jhana, it's just thinking about them. .... > ...She then gave > > the example of tasting, knowing both the taste and the awareness that > > there is `something' there and pointed to the mode of "knowing" > > of "citta" rather than `sati' (I think this is what she was trying to > get > > across, but I am not sure). > ------------ > N: This example shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. it seems > knowing > what the taste is occurs at the same time as tasting the flavour. In the > same way, the yogavacara experiences with absorption the meditation > subject, > and immediately realizes after that jhanafactors like piiti. ... S: Yes, exactly. it's like the reviewing after the lokuttara cittas -- the factors have fallen away but their characteristics are directly known as a result of the 'strength' or absorption of the jhana cittas. .... > ------- > K. Sujin then compared > > my initial doubt with the one that sates to the effect that, "how can > one > > citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? > She > > said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and > having > > one object at a time. > --------- > N: An idea does not help. We can check realities. Seeing has just fallen > away, but it is still present, its characteristic appears and it can be > object of awareness. ... S: Again it's back to the topic I was discussing with Htoo on citta A, citta B and na'vattabba (not so classifiable) objects. When we understand about the reviewing cittas after jhana and lokuttara cittas, the rest is clear. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, have another good trip!! Thx for telling us. ====== 46106 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:37am Subject: Pali basis (03) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 Pali letters and 8 vowels. 33 letters are a) The first' vagga' or the first 'group' of letters is called 'guttrals' or they can be called 'ka group'. Guttral alphabets are pronounced by putting the back of tongue up against hard palate and it is voiced explosively. K, Kh, G, Gh, `N The first letter is 'k'. If it is associated with a vowel say 'a' it become 'ka'. This sound is like the sound of 'ka' in 'cathedral'. Ka is prounced unaspirated whereas 'kha' is aspirated word. 'h' is for aspiration. Example of aspiration is here. Black + hat = blackhat = blac + kh + at As you can see, 'k' is aspirated with 'h'. Note the difference between 1. black cat = blackcat = blac + kc + at = blac + kk + at(unaspirated) 2. black hat = blackhat = blac + kh + at (aspirated) g and gh are the same as k and kh. The difference is these two alphabets are pronounced by voicing with movement of voice-box or larynx. Put the palm of hand on the throat and say alternatively 'ka' 'ga' 'ka' 'ga. At anytime when 'ga' is said there is vibration on the throat because of movement of voice-box. Ka is not voiced. The last alphabet is `n and it is the same as ka but it has to be nasalised. b) the second group or vagga is 'palatals' or 'ca' group. C, Ch, J, Jh, ~N The tip of the tongue is put against the palate (so called palatal) and air is forced through the tongue and the palate. When C is combined with the vowel 'a' it becomes 'ca' and this is like the sound of 'sa' in 'satisfaction' or 'ca' in 'central'. Other letters are like the first group and they are just aspirated, voiced- unaspirated, voice-aspirated, and nasalised sounds. c) The third group is 'cerebral' or '.ta' group. It is like 'ca' and put the tip of the tongue at the junction of palate and teeth. It is rather slightly a bit back of tip than right at the tip. The air is push explosively. There is no air between palate and tongue like in 'ca'. That is 'ca' is non-touching while '.ta' is touching with tongue. '.Ta' and 'Ta' seem to be the same. But '.T' is a round mouth while 'Ta' use a wide mouth. .T, .Th, .D, .Dh, .N .Ta, .tha, .da, .dha, .n The same as above. d) the 4th group or vagga is dental or 'ta' group. T, Th, D, Dh, N Ta, tha, da, dha, n The same as above. e)the 5th group is labials or 'pa' group. Put upper and lower lips together and push air explosively to open the lips. Pa is like pa in 'parallel'. P, Ph, B, Bh, M Pa, pha, ba, bha, m The same as a), b), c), d). f) This group is semi-vowels group except 'sa' Y, R, L, V, S Y = palatal ; put the back of middle of the tongue against the palate and say or push air through. There is no touch of tongue to the palate when it is pronounced. R = cerebral ; Put the tip of tongue rolled back and to the mid-palate and push air through. There is no touch of air. L = dental ; Put the tongue as in case of 'R' but this letter is pronounced invloving touching of the tongue. V = dento-labial ; Bite the lower lip with upper teeth. The upper teeth bite the lower lip (dento-labial) and push air explosively through teeth and lip. Y, R, L, V are semi-vowel in Pali. S = dental (sibilant); This letter is pronounced by putting the tongue against teeth and push air explosively. It is a consonent and not a vowel as in y, r, l, v. But it forms a group here together. g) the last vagga This is not a true vagga or group. H, .L, .m H = aspirate .L = cerebral (similar to L but with rounded mouth) .m = niggahita There is no initial letter for this alphabet. This alphabet always follow some other letters. Examples; k (consonent)+ a(vowel) + .m(niggahita) + m(consonent) + a(vowel) ka.mma = kamma (seed) There are 8 vowels. They are 1) 'a' as in case of 'ca' 'na' . This is a short vowel. 2) 'aa' as in case of 'vaa' . 'aa' is written as 'a' with a hyphen over the 'a'. But when character for 'a-' is not available we can use 'aa' instead. It is a long vowel. 3) i as in case of 'ti' 'pi'. This is short vowel. 4) ii as in case of 'dii' in Diigha. This is a long vowel. As in 'aa', 'ii' is written as 'i-' that is '-' over 'i'. 5) u as in case of 'nu' of 'anupassanaa'. A short vowel. 6) uu as in case of 'muu' in muula. Like 'aa', 'uu' is written as 'u- ' that is '-' over 'u'. This is a long vowel. 7) e as in case of 'de' in deva. This is a long vowel. But when then are 2 consonent following 'e' it becomes short vowel. Eva = 'E' is a long vowel. 'Ettha' = 'E' is a short vowel. Because there are 2 consonents of 't' and 'th' following 'e'. 8) o as in case of 'do' in dosa. It is a long vowel. But when there are 2 consonents following 'o' it becomes a short vowel. Osadha = 'O' is a long vowel. Votthapana = 'o' is a short vowel. Because there are 't' and 'th' 2 consonents following 'o'. Regarding vowel sounding an example of a typical word 'K' will be used here. ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, ko, ka.m kakka, kakkha, kagga, kaggha, ka`nka kacca, kaccha, kajja, kajjha, ka~nna ka.tta, ka.ttha, ka.dda, ka.ddha, ka.nna katta, kattha, kadda, kaddha, kanna kappa, kappha, kabba, kabbha, kamma kitta, kinna kutta, kunna ka~nta, ka~ntha, ka~nda, ka~ndha ka.n.ta, ka.n.tha, ka.n.da, ka.ndha kanta, kantha, kanda, kandha kampa, kampha, kamba, kambha keyya, kalla, kva, [tan]ha With Metta, Htoo Naing 46107 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:50am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Tep and all, Sarah wrote to Tep in her ps; 'Where Htoo and I are far more at `odds' with a huge chasm is with regard to how samatha is developed at all. For example, I don't find all the posts about kasinas without any emphasis at all on understanding or how the objects condition calm of any value. At least when it comes to satipatthana, we're communicating:). (I know he won't be deterred by any of my comments!!). -------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, This is a bit hard area. I think you and I discussed on 'why white colour condition kusala and so on' and we have not convinced yet. Leave it alone. We can go back to it when it is time to do so. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46108 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Refreshing the citta, piiti (a) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & Nina,, Yes, I think it’s helpful to stress the difference between samalobha (ordinary lobha that doesn’t harm others) and visamalobha (unnatural or harming lobha). If we’re afraid or avoid walking briskly, eating ice-creams or going to parties, it doesn’t help to understand conditioned dhammas. You've both been raising some interesting points and I'd like to add a few of my reflections too....I hope you don't mind me butting in here. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > taking care of the body, doing what is suitable for one's health is not > necessarily lobha. > The Co. to the Satipatthana sutta explains about the fourfold > sampajañña, > clear comprenesion: of purpose, of suitability, of resort and of > non-delusion. > A long time ago Kh. Sujin explained that it is a kind of wisdom to do > what > is suitable for the body, like stretching at the right time. One should > not > torture oneself sitting all day. ... S: Well, I think there’s bound to be samalobha much of the time while taking care of the body, walking for health and so on. When I’ve questioned K.Sujin on sappaya sampajanna, she always stresses ‘what is suitable for satipatthana at this moment’. Ultimately, the suitable climate, the stretching or good friends are merely concepts used for short-hand to represent large numbers of namas and rupas in these contexts (or in the context of natural decisive support condition, Phil). They refer to the experiencing of various dhammas, which we call good friends and so on, which accumulate and can condition satipatthana at this very moment, like the examples given in the intro to the Satipatthana Sutta about the Kuru people, the climate and their good health which made it possible for them to listen and appreciate the Dhamma. .... N:>The Buddha recommended the alley walk > to > the monks. > Kh Sujin walked fast in India in the early morning, and also when we > visited > her in Keng Kracang. But while walking she was so kind to give us Dhamma > reminders. ... S: Just to clarify a little further, I don’t think there is any suggestion that we should walk fast in order to develop satipatthana. Again, satipatthana ‘follows’. While changing posture, walking quickly or whatever else is ‘suitable’, satipatthana can develop. Like eating congee or having a clean house -- again they are not 'prescriptive for satipatthana', but while we follow whatever we find helpful for our health or well-being, develop satipatthana. .... N:> There can be mindfulness also when walking. > Of course, lobha arises time and again, but there are different moments. > Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible for us > to > live in the world. ... S: Though I think we can say it is the samalobha which lets us live our worldly lives. As we know, the arahant cannot live the lay life. Are we ready to give it up??? .... N:> So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by ahirika, > shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of akusala. They > are > unknown. ... S: I found the Vism and tiika passages that you and Larry quoted very moving as I usually do on ahirika and anottappa. “Ahirika, shamelessness, does not abhor the impurity of defilemtnents; it is like a pig that does not abhor dung. Anottapa has no fear of evil; it is like a moth that is attracted to fire and does not see the danger of burning oneself.” Thankyou Nina & Larry. I appreciate your work a lot in the Vism corner. ... > You asked before: why bother with the Visuddhimagga since they are also > in > my Cetasikas. Believe it or not, but these subjects are always new to > me. I > like to consider them from different angles. .... S: I find the same with both texts. ... Phil:> > I walk (fast) for about an hour before teaching and my > > classes are excellent. <...> ... S: :-) Yes, everyone benefits when I get some good exercise too. As we know, lobha can condition kusala as well as kusala.....Again, the ‘situation’ consists of so many different dhammas, but lobha is there most of the time, I think, even when we appreciate those ‘plucky tulips’:-). (you’d get on famously with my mother, Phil...very much her kind of language!!). Metta, Sarah ======= 46109 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, Tep and all, > Dear Sarah, > > This is a bit hard area. I think you and I discussed on 'why white > colour condition kusala and so on' and we have not convinced yet. > Leave it alone. We can go back to it when it is time to do so. ... S: yes, I'm leaving it alone. Maybe by the time DT gets to a 1000 and we've sorted out all other differences:-). I appreciate all our discussions, Htoo....more next week. Also enjoying all your threads with lots of laughter with Sukin. Please don't disappear without word or warning. Metta, Sarah p.s also see 'Satipatthana Sutta & commentary' posts in U.P. and 'sukkhavipassika' as Nina mentioned if you have time. If I come across it, I'll give the link to my Musings on 'Mistakes'. How come I spend so much time going through DTS and you're not even sure if you read my occasional Musings. Is that fair???;-)). Have a good weekend....Lucky you didn't choose this week to make the forest roots in Hong Kong your abode....big, big storms here:). Seriously, lots of lovely mountains and forests for walks, but I warn you, we walk briskly so if you're w-a-l-k-i-n-g sooo s-l-o-w-l-y, you'll never get out of the city! =============================================================== 46110 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more texts. Can you compare the Burmese Tiika text, which is under lokuttara viññaa.na?: Tiika Pali: Maggadhammesu ca ..snip..niyataviratitaa. As I said: >> It explains that it is not without the viratis, but sometimes > (kadaaci) is without sammaasankappa: sammaasa"nkappaviraho. Why is the term sammaasa"nkappa used here? Does it not denote a Path factor? Could you or Kel ask your Burmese teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: As to sevenfold lokuttara Path, this is explained as without pitti, in the Atthasalini, (II, under Path-consciousness, english p. 307). Seven or eightfold lokuttara Paths. In the olden days different teachers had different opinions as Buddhaghosa mentioned. Thus, it is a difficult subject. But here is not mentioned: without sammasankappa, and in that case it would be sixfold lokuttara. Now, this sounds strange to me. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina and all interested members of DSG, I would point out a fact. I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual lokuttara citta'. In that small gap, in case of any of 4th jhaanalasbhii, 5th jhaanalaabhii and aruupa jhaanalaabhii there does not arise piiti. I think, it is true. But for vitakka and vicaara they may or may not arise. I am not sure for that gap. But I believe that as soon as magga citta arises samma-sankappa also arises and directs magga citta to apply to nibbana. I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. Interesting and difficult area. I will ask one of my teachers when available. With respect, Htoo Naing 46111 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (426) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 2nd arupa jhana is 'the state of absorption of mind into the sphere of boundless consciousness'. The object is 'consciousness'. This consciousness is vinnana. This vinnana is 1st arupa jhana citta. As the object of 1st jhana is limitless the citta that takes that object is also limitless and boundless. This boundless consciousness or 'vinnana anata' is seen by 2nd arupa jhana citta. This 2nd arupa jhana citta is called 'vinnana ananta ayatana' arupakusala citta or 'vinnananancayatana arupakusala citta'. This is 2nd arupa jhana or 2nd non-material absorption. This 2nd aruupa jhaana is also required to be practised to become proficient. One has to enter that aruupa jhaana and then exit from it and then re-enter it. He has to be able to advert to that aruupa jhaana at ease, without delay and at will. Example. If one is in the border of the zone of black and the zone of green, he can step into the green zone and if he want he can step back to the black zone. Black zone refers to 'the sensuous sphere' and green zone here refers to 'the fine material sphere'. The practitioner has to be able to turn the attention to 2nd aruupa jhaana. Initially this may take time and there always is a delay. With practice this delay becomes less longer and when proficient the practitioner will be able to advert to 2nd aruupa jhaana without delay, at ease, and at will. Explanation!! There is no self here. Otherwise there will be heat of argumentation. Certain person says that The Buddha could control ruupa when He showed miraculous things like fire and water shower. This is not true. No one can control dhamma. This no one include The Buddha. Likewise the exercises of jhaana do not deal with any self at all. 'At will' as I said is that as soon as 'a thought that wish to enter the jhaana arises' there is not long delay between actual arising of jhaana cittas and initial arising of wishing mind. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46112 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread (427) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When 2nd aruupa jhaana can be enter at will, at ease, without delay the practitioner has to exercise in other ways. He tries to stay in aruupa jhaana for predetermined period. First there may be inaccuracy. But with practice there become more and more accurate. If 10 minutes is chosen to stay in aruupa jhaana after the exact 10 minutes the jhaana also ends. If an hour is chosen, at the end of an hour the jhaana ends. Another exercise is that the practitioner has to be able to stay in aruupa jhaana and not in other states of mind. He has to completely absorbed into 2nd aruupa jhaana. This is attainment of aruupa jhaana and this is jhaana-samapatti or jhaana-attainment. Another exercise or vasi is votthaana vasi. The practitioner has to emerge from the attainment state and has to contemplate back on attained aruupa jhaana. The act of this emerging is another exercise. Because of adhitthaana vasi jhaana ends at certain time. As soon as jhaana ends other kinds of citta arise. Here this new exercise of emerging helps skilful emerging from jhaana rather than wandering and straying. The most important exercise is 'paccavakkhana vasi'. As soon as exit the arisen aruupa jhaana is scrutinized, examined, contemplated and skilfully considered and pondered. When the arisen aruupa jhaana is checked in this way repeatedly, the jhaana practitioner will become skilful in this kind of exercise. In the earlier stage of proficiency he may just be able to contemplate a few jhaana factors and may be able to contemplate for a few seconds. With a good exercise he will become proficient in scrutinizing and will discover that his current 2nd aruupa jhaana is also not safe yet. In which way? The 2nd arupa jhaana or 'vinnaananancayatana' jhaana or 'arupa jhana taking the sphere of boundless consciousness has a potential danger that it might be drawn back to 'aakaasanancayatana' jhaana and again this might go downhill back to sensuous sphere through 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st ruupa jhaana. The practitioner is now aware of the potential danger and he starts to detach from 2nd aruupa jhaana. But he has still to attach because he has to base on this 2nd arupa jhana to ascend up to 3nd aruupa jhaana. When in 2nd arupa jhaana there is just ekaggata as jhaana factor and there is just upekkha or equanimous feeling. With the awareness that 2nd aruupa jhaana is not a safe place from the danger of sensuous thing one has to detach that object 'boundless consciousness' and he has to attend 'the voidness' of that 'boundless consciousness'. This voidness is nothingness. 'Boundless consciousness' is nothing. There is nothing. And there is just nothing. There is no space, no consciousness, not a thing, there is nothing. The mind is still with ekaggataa and upekkhaa. When the conditions are right there absorbs into another object 'nothingness'. This seems that new citta takes nothing as its object or it seems like not having an object. This is the basic idea for next aruupa jhaana. But for the time being the practitioner is attending to 'nothingness' or 'the idea of nothingness'. This is 3rd aruupa jhaana. Kinca means 'something'. Ana or 'a' means 'no' 'nothing'. So akinca means 'nothing'. Akincinnaayatana = ana + kinca + anna + ayatana So there is nothing as object or nothingness as object and this aruupa jhaana is called 'akincinnayatana' arupa jhaana. As soon as this new citta arise, 3rd aruupakusala kamma has already arisen. And this brings up a potential to give rise to 3rd aruupavipaka citta at a later time. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46113 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:16am Subject: Pali basis (04) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Pali is actually not a language. 'Pali' means 'the text'. Those words as we hear as Dhamma in their original form is the language of 'Maagadhi'. Maagadhi is spoken by 'people of the land of Magadha'. The Buddha spoke 'Maagadhi'. Maagadhi was the universal language in the continent at that time. Pali means 'the text'. That is the texts of The Buddha. Because of this Pali has been assumed as a language. Pali is the text. So it is frequently called Pali Canon. The Buddha Gotama used 'Maagadii' as the medium of His instructions. Anyone who study this language will benefit their learning. But what I sadly and frequently heard is 'Pali' is a dead language. I am not reviving the language. But there does exist beneficial potential of deep understanding of Dhamma through this medium as The Buddha used this medium. If I am asked whether it is possible to study Dhamma without Pali, I would say it may be possible. But it will not be as deep as studying through the medium of Pali for understanding of Dhamma. Pali is not that very difficult. If the basic rules are learned one will become confident in reading Pali canon. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46114 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (428) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Bodhisatta first met Alara Kalama when he searched for Dhamma. He asked what Alara taught and Alara welcome Him and invited Him. Bodhisatta tasted what it was that Alara knew. Not very soon, Bodhisatta attained all that Alara had long practised and attained. It was 3rd aruupa jhaana. Or 3rd non-material absorption. It is akincinnaayatana aruupa jhaana. Alara Kalama could not ascend up and he was stuck in 3rd aruupa jhaana. Bodhisatta knew that there must have more refined state. So he left that teacher Alara, even though He was invited to teach half the pupil and to act as a co-teacher with the same rank with him(Alara Kalama). Next Bodhisatta met another teacher. He asked what that teacher taught. He was Udaka Raamaputta. He was an ascetic. Bodhisatta tasted what he taught to his pupils. Bodhisatta soon attain all what this new teacher knew as his doctrine. This new state that Bodhisatta attained was 4th aruupa jhaana citta. Again Bodhisatta scrutinized on this new 4th aruupa jhaana cittas and He did not find any satisfactory answers to His primary questions of non-ageing, non-diseasing, non-death dhamma. As the 4th aruupa jhaana what He instantaneously attained was not the right thing He was searching Bodhisatta left this second teacher Udaka Raamaputta even though Udaka invited Him to act as a co-teacher and to teach hald the students of him. When 3rd aruupa jhaana has been attained, it has to be exercised as mentioned in case of 2nd aruupa jhaana. When the practices make 3rd aruupa jhaana become proficient, paccavakkhana vasi can effectively sort out the problem of possible danger. This 3rd aruupa jhaana is also close to the danger of falling back to 2nd aruupa jhaana and that again will cause downgrading to 1st aruupa jhaana, which again is very very close to ruupa jhaana. Ruupa jhaanas are not far from sensuous sphere and in no time one may get back to sensuous sphere. When this danger can be seen the 3rd aruupa jhaanalaabh starts to dispassionate on 3rd aruupa jhaana and he tries again practising on his current 3rd aruupa jhaana with ekaggata as jhaana factor along with upekkha or equanimous feeling. When he practises this he frequently looks into the 3rd aruupa jhaana and its constituents factors, the jhaana citta itself, the object and all about 3rd aruupa jhaana is contemplated and scrutinized. When this is done as there is only ekaggata and upekkha, the mind is so calm and clearly see that this state '3rd aruupa jhaana citta' is very subtle dhamma. That citta is hard to be said that it has an object or it does not have an object. It is hard to say that 3rd aruupa jhaana citta perceives an object or does not perceives an object. This citta is so subtle that it is hard to see whether it has perception or equally whether it has n0n-perception or it does not have any perception at all. Actually this new 'seeing' or this new knowledge or new citta is the 4th aruupakusala jhaana citta and it just sees that the 3rd aruupa jhaana is subtle dhamma and it is hard to say 'whether 3rd aruupa jhaana citta has a perception or non-perception. This new citta is neither-perception-nor-non-perception consciousness. It is n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana aruupakusala jhaana citta. N'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana = Na + eva + sanna + na + sanna + ayatana Eva means 'such'. Such consciousness is neither perception nor non- perception. This is a new sphere or consciousness and this consciousness is 4th aruupa jhaana. As soon as 4th aruupa jhaana aruupakusala citta arises, there has already arisen arupakusala kamma. This kamma can give rise to 4th aruupavipaaka cittas at a later time. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46115 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 26, 2005 11:15pm Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 7! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, all Pain does so caused by Feeling ! Another consequent consideration is: By ending all Feeling, there cannot ever arise any Misery ! Repeatedly seeing both pleasant, painful & neutral feeling all fade away, and instantly vanish in each moment, one is freed for passion for feeling! By quenching craving for feeling one becomes all cool & quite calmed... Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter the state of Nibbana right here & now in this life, or if there is lasting traces of clinging left, the state of a non-returner... Those who neglect understanding Feeling, the origin of Feeling, the End of Feeling, & how Feeling is completely eliminated, are thus incapable of release by understanding, are thus incapable of mental release, are thus incapable of direct knowledge, and are thus incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again... While those who undertake understanding of Feeling, Origin, End & Way, are quite capable of mental release by understanding, & capable of making an end... They are near the deathless dimension! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46116 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:09am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #1 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Thanks for your reply. I'll divide my response over several parts, but am not sure when I will finish. ======================== You wrote: > Why be mindful of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and avijja? Sukinder> Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. . ========================= > Sukin: As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, Ithink we should > keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja, ………………………… > ………the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. > .......................... > Eznir: "As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in > mind the unaccumulated alobha and vijja. …………………………….. >……………infinite non-accumulated alobha, amoha and also samma ditthi." > > Here Sukin, I have tried to re-word the essence of what you say in > the opposite sense as faithfully as I could. I think you will agree > that if what you did say here is possible, then what you did *not* > say here is also equally possible, under any circumstances - which is > the present moment. Sukinder: I'll say possible, but highly improbable, definitely not equally. ;-) But yes, no assuming what is going to arise next. =========================== Eznir: The difference between the two is that they are > exactly opposite in sense and neither has *happened* in the present > moment, that you are faced with, as yet. > Now you may ask, "How do you keep the unaccumulated alobha and vijja > in mind?" And I will ask in reply, "How do you keep the accumulated > lobha and avijja in mind?" You would reply, "By listening to the > Dhamma from a wise person (or reading)". Then I would ask, "Does he > only speak of lobha and avijja, why not alobha and vijja?" and this > conversation would go on. Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be reminded about the moment or we will not. If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. But their opposites don't and we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present. =========================== Eznir: > We as human beings generally seek happiness and not suffering, the > Tatagatha is also known as the well-farer. This happiness or > suffering is in the present moment and depends on how we pay > *attention* to it. Sukinder: We may be confused about `happiness' and end up mistaking what in fact leads to further suffering, as the end-result. ========================== Eznir: The way to do just *this* - attention to the > present moment - is varied. Nevertheless none of us would approach > this present moment with a *clean sheet*, except the Arahants who can > continuously be in the sati-sampajanna mode if they want to. All > those below an Arahant, even an Anagami, would have their *sheets* > soiled somewhat. Sukinder: Without Right View, no kilesas will ever be eradicated. So even though we may not be in control of the arising of kusala or akusala, right view *now*, is a very important. And in this regard we should not overlook the value and importance of intellectual right view, pariyatti. ========================== Eznir: > The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a > positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to pay attention to a particular idea. ========================== Eznir: > The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not > lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the > inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of > either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the > weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to > the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to > neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really talking about panna here. ============================ > Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings > from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise > friend'. > ............................ Exnir: > I agree. And this person will present the Dhamma in such a way that > one is inspired, aroused, propelled and delighted listening to the > Dhamma. Sukinder: But it must be the correct Dhamma. Otherwise, inspiration will only increase attachment to view. ============================= End of part 1. Metta, Sukinder 46117 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #2 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I continue. ============================= > Sukin: This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would > rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Eznir: > This friend would not only point out the tendencies of lobha that > lead us to the wrong way but would also point out the skills needed > to pick the right way! Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) =============================== Eznir: > One should note that feelings, perception, intention, contact, > attention, effort, applied and sustained thought, are some of the > cetasikas common to both wholesome *and* unwholesome states, ie in > all types of consciousness we experience at any given moment, except > in the rupavacara and arupavacara consciousness (other than the first > jhana) and in the cessation of perception and feeling, where only the > life principle together with heat is present. > > Therefore whether the need of the present moment is to rob a bank or > to attain the cessation of perception and feeling, these very same > cetasikas have to be used skillfully following the instructions of a > teacher who is experienced in these matters. In all these you might > still contend that a self is doing these things, but is there a self? Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama and rupa. Any knowing before that even by conditions, and not by a `self deliberately looking', is still only through increasing familiarity, but still not clear, I think. Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the ultimate sense. If we attempt to understand them in experience without first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real knowledge. What can a teacher "instruct" with regard to ephemeral experiences? If you don't yourself *know*, what are you going to convey to your teacher? A teacher can only tell you about conditions, he can't tell you *what* to do, namely he can't make an assumption about any dhamma and how that will be experienced at any time. You can have discussions and in the process refine and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. ============================= > Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do > that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' > which is forever seeking? > ................................. Eznir: > A good teacher would ask the students to keep the 5 precepts which is > something to be done, isn't it? Or do you say that it is the 'self' > here seeking something through the 5 precepts? Ok, let's say it is > the self who is seeking. Then would this thing he is seeking *by > keeping the 5 precepts*, lead towards less suffering or more > suffering? Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only when there is an opportunity for restraint. I think there is a danger when we make any assumption with regard to the Noble Truth of Suffering. We *don't* know it. Any idea therefore about experiencing less suffering, and tying that with a particular practice, is I think placing oneself to be deluded. =========================== Eznir: > I'm sure you must be knowing Abhidhamma very well where ones > experience is broken down into elements and also considers the > various aspects of an experience. Tell me where in Abhidhamma does it > speak of a self? None. Then what is this self that you highlight > here? Sukinder: No I don't know the Abhidhamma well at all, but enough to know that it describe *all* dhammas. So why would it describe the non- existent `self'? Well, `self' is only a concept. It manifest in three ways, via mana, lobha and ditthi. The self that I often refer to, is that which is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, particularly ditthi. I do not mind lobha so much, as it will stay there well beyond even Sotapatti. But when it arise with connection to the Buddha's words and any consequent idea about practice, then it becomes a problem of ditthi. I see it as unfortunate, that the only Teachings which can point to the great danger of miccha ditthi are itself viewed with ditthi. ================================ Eznir: Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and > instruct accordingly! Sukinder: How will he do that, and by what standard? I think only a Buddha is capable of such a thing. ================================== End of part 2. Metta, Sukinder ps: I'll probably respond to the remaining of your post some time next week. 46118 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:21am Subject: Pali basis (05) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Maagadhi language is a language of inflection unlike contemporary English language which does not have inflection. Old English once had inflection and now it is obsolete. Inflections are that a basic word can have different meaning when it is attached with an inflective letters or words. An example in English is 'king'. There is no change in the form of 'word' king whether it is a subject or an object or it is an accusative case or genitive case or so on. No change. It is just 'king'. In Pali king is called 'raaja'. In the position of subject that is if it is nominative case it becomes 'raajo' for 'a king' and it becomes 'raajaa' for 'kings'. When king is in the position of an object of a sentence or if it is accusative case then 'raaja' becomes 'raaja.m' for 'a king' as an object of a sentence. And 'raaja' becomes 'raaje' for 'kings' as an object of a sentence. The base form for 'king' is 'raaja'. Other examples; 1. Odana - rice 2. Aahaara - food 3. Osadha - medicine 4. Dhamma - doctrine, truth, law 5. Gaama - village 6. Gha.ta - pot, jar 7. Suuda - cook (someone who cook) 8. Yaacaka - beggar 9. Putta - son 10.Janaka - father 11.Budha - understanding 12.Buddha - He who understand all or The Enlightened One So they may be said or written in the form as singular nominative forms like Odano, Aahaaro, Osadho, Dhammo, Gaamo, Gha.to, Suudo, Yaacako, Putto, Janako, Budho, Buddho and so on.[example_Buddho in 9 attributes of The Buddha] For plural forms of nominative case they will be_ Odanaa, Aahaaraa, Osadhaa, Dhammaa, Gaamaa, Gha.taa, Suudaa, Yaacakaa, Puttaa, Janakaa, Budhaa, Buddhaa.[example_Sabbe Buddhaa Mahiddhikaa.] For singular accusative form they will be_ Odana.m, Aahaara.m, Osadha.m, Dhamma.m, Gaama.m, Gha.ta.m, Suuda.m, Yaacaka.m, Janaka.m, Budha.m, Buddha.m and so on. [example_Buddha.m sarana.m gacchaami.] For plural accusative case they will be_ Odane, Aahaare, Osadhe, Dhamme, Gaame, Gha.te, Suude, Yaacake, Janake, Budhe, Buddhe and so on. [examples_Aahaare patikuulasanna, Sambuddhe atthavisanca dvadasanca namaami.] This is just basis and nothing difficult here. Summary: 1. the base form -a , example raaj-a = raaja 2. singular nominative form -o , example raaj-o = raajo 3. plural nominative form -aa, example raaj-aa= raajaa 4. singular accusative form -.m, example raaj-.m=raaja.m 5. plural accusative form -e , example raaj-e = raaje May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46119 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/26/05 8:26:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lone.renunciant@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' ===================== Andrew, there happens to be much in the practice of Judaism that can be understood (better IMO) in light of the Dhamma. First of all, the moral practices of Judaism and of the Dhamma have a huge common core. Examples are the Judaic precepts to avoid lashon hara (wrong/evil speech) and to avoid yetzer hara (the evil inclination, a.k.a. Satan/Mara). Secondly, there is very good reason to view the blessings in Judaism [There is a blessing for virtually every experience that arises, and there are generic ones for which no explicit blessing was developed by the ancient rabbis and commentators] as a mindfulness practice! In this regard, an instructive book to look at is The Path of Blessing, by Rabbi Marcia Prager. You may also find of interest the writings of Rabbi Zalman Schachter Shalomi and other writings coming out of the Jewish Renewal Movement formed from converging streams of Reform Judaism, Chassidism, and (yes) Buddhism. With regard to Chassidism, within that there are perspectives on the nature of G-d that are *very* reminiscent of the notions of nibbana and su~n~nata in Buddhism, and its emphasis on kavannah (intention and contemplative preparation) is something quite Buddhist in flavor. Also, many writings coming out of Chassidism - the stories of the old masters, and, for example, the morality writings of Rabbi Chaim Luzzato - are reminiscent of aspects of the Dhamma. Most important of all, I think, is that the neither the Dhamma nor Judaism, IMO, requires belief in fixed dogma, but requires, instead, study, contemplation, moral behavior, and practices leading to a calm, clear, loving, and luminous mind. Somewhere the Buddha is reported to have said that whatever is conducive to the good, to calm, and to insight is Dhamma. I believe the Tipitaka is the clearly best guide to that, but the Dhamma is not found only there. Most of all, it is found within. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46120 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet Hi Nina, Larry and all > N: the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one > does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. > Nina. Ph: Does ditthi that comes from this "not seeing kamma and vipaka" refer simply to not knowing about them - or does it refer to something like having an perversely wrong idea about them, such as thinking "there is no need to worry about kamma and vipaka - I will get away with it." I thought it was the latter. If a non-Buddhist does not know about kamma but still has the idea that he can get away with murder because there will be no price to pay would he have the same ditti as a Buddhist who thought that re kamma and vipaaka? i.e is having heard the Buddha's teaching on kamma and vipaaka a necessary condition to have diithi, because diithi means a view that is contrary to Dhamma and to be contrary to Dhamma we have to know it first? (sorry for the weird quesion - I am just beginning to figure out what diithi means.) Leaving aside transgressions - when it comes to clinging to khandas, we are not usually talking about evil deeds, are we? I thought we are usually talking about very weak akusala, if you will, sama lobha et al, and that diiti wouldn't be involved there usually, because we are just like automatons (is that the right word?) when it comes to sensual clinging most of the time. Of course it accumulates, and therefre I guess it has potential to condition evil deeds eventually, but a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it? Isn't most clinging through the day of this sort of degree? Metta, Phil ] p.s Nina > See also the Vis. and tiika today. Ph:I haven't yet. Sorry if my questions are redundant. 46121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 27-05-2005 12:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not > sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have > been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. >------------ N: Yes, I assume they had the highest distinctions, magga-cittas with jhaanafactors and the four patisambhiddhas. ----------- Htoo The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: When the Path is mundane it can be said: the eightfold Path is to be developed. But the factors that arise with the mundane kusala cittas are five or six. --------- Htoo: I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: Yes, so it is called. -------- Htoo: There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual > lokuttara citta'... --------- N: This is too difficult for me. --------- Htoo: I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa > jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is > completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete > bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. ------- N: Yes, but I need texts. I keep to the Expositor II. The feeling, upekkha, can be very calm and very refined. Nina. 46122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add something. I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time to read the books on them. Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques at the wall. I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into contact with the Dhamma. Nina. op 27-05-2005 16:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ===================== > Andrew, there happens to be much in the practice of Judaism that can be > understood (better IMO) in light of the Dhamma. First of all, the moral > practices of Judaism and of the Dhamma have a huge common core. 46123 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/27/05 11:09:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add something. ---------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. I was very appreciative of your reply to Andrew as well! --------------------------------- I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time to read the books on them. Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques at the wall. I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into contact with the Dhamma. -------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! This feature of revealing what is good elsewhere is a real but little commented upon aspect of the Dhamma. -------------------------------------- Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46124 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You're welcome! When you are back to the message board again on Wednesday please edit your copy of the Section iii, Part 1 using Han Tun's revision of the two paragrphs (in which he found errors). I also plan to write a discussion on the core paragraphs 19 - 23. Have a great weekend. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Thanks a lot. > I cannot contribute much since I go away from Saturday until next week > Wednesday, > appreciating, you did a lot of typing, > Nina > op 26-05-2005 05:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > As a reminder, the Breathing Treatise starts with the classification of the > > 210 kinds of knowledge(naana) that arise in the Anapanasati meditator, 46125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 27, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] lobha and di.t.thi. nilovg Hi Phil, (and Howard) op 27-05-2005 16:21 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> N: the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For > instance, if one >> does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. > Ph: Does ditthi that comes from this "not seeing kamma and vipaka" > refer simply to not knowing about them - or does it refer to > something like having an perversely wrong idea about them, such as > thinking "there is no need to worry about kamma and vipaka - I will get > away with it." I thought it was the latter. -------- N: One may be indulging in bad things, and thinking that there is no consequence. When one holds to a view like this, it is ditthi. One does not have to name kamma and vipaaka, there can still be wrong view. But we cannot know the cittas of someone else. It is hard to pinpoint when there is wrong view with the lobha and when only lobha. Kh Sujin once explained that when there is ignorance about right and wrong, the akusala is worse than when you know. I was surprised and had to think it over. ------------ Ph: ... is having heard the Buddha's teaching on kamma and > vipaaka a necessary condition to have diithi, because diithi means a > view that is contrary to Dhamma and to be contrary to Dhamma we have to > know it first? (sorry for the weird quesion - I am just beginning to > figure out what diithi means.) -------- N: In the texts dhamma is also translated as: what is righteous. There are dhamma and adhamma, they are not limited to certain religions. This is interesting in relation to what Howard wrote about Judaism. Through Buddhism you realize more what dhamma and adhamma are. You see dhamma with others, no matter what religion they have. You appreciate that more. The Abhidhamma has to do with this, you do not mind what names people use: as Howard said, lashon hara (wrong/evil speech), it is adhamma. Honour your parents, this is righteous, it is dhamma. In all religions. All the cetasikas we learn about now in the Visuddhimagga, sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, they are not limited to Buddhism. --------- Ph: Leaving aside transgressions - when it comes to clinging to khandas, > we are not usually talking about evil deeds, are we? ------ N: Akusala cetasikas are included in sankhaarakkhandha. Not a person is the doer of a bad deed, but impure citta and cetasikas. These are khandhas. -------- Ph:... but a moment > of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for > example, doesn't involve diiti does it? Isn't most clinging through the > day of this sort of degree? -------- N: Impossible to pinpoint all this. One may cling to the body as mine or self, also when reaching for the hot water tap. But when one studies the dhamma and has some understanding of wrong view there may be more often just lobha. But ditthi is there as a latent tendency, not eradicated and it can arise at any time. We can only know this for ourselves. Nina. 46126 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Re: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) philofillet Hi James I hope you've been feeling better. > Phil: Now, assuming we *do* know what kusala is, why does this mean > that there will therefore be more moments for kusala to arise? Because > we appreciate it more, we are more liekly to recognize it, we hold it > with a moment of mindfulness, and this momentary holding it > conditions it to arise again? Something like that? I'm not sure. > > James: I'm not completely sure either, but it seems to me that insight > or kusala mind states arise when the proper conditions are put into > place. I do not believe that such mind states can be controlled to > arise- they usually arise quite by surprise. Ph: Yes, I agree for sure. It is natural to want to have more of them, but it can't be that way. > It is only in hindsight > that one might see how certain conditions allowed the insights to > arise. Ph: But we will never sure which condition will allowed which insight, so maybe there is no point in reflecting on it. But maybe there is - it can give us more confidence in Dhamma, and we can share that confidence with others. > Time, the distance between cause and effect, makes practice > more difficult. Ph: Makes patience more necessary. After all, we can be as virtuous as monks in this lifeteme, but an act from a previous life can play out. We never know. I guess this helps us not to cling to expectations about the results of our present acts. > What I believe are the right conditions for the > arising of insight/kusala doesn't match entirely what you believe, but > that is okay- we are different people at different points in our lives. Ph: Well said. > Phil: You won't appreciate what she teaches unless you appreciate > Abhidhamma, which you don't, so why bother? > > James: I don't think this is quite fair. I try to be open-minded > about everything. Of course I don't believe the Buddha taught the > Abhidhamma so it has some flaws- but it's not all bad. It seems to > help some people to stay on the path at least. Ph: OK. You've said more derogatory things on occasions, though. But that was then and this is now. >And from what I have > been reading, K. Sujin doesn't just teach Abhidhamma. That is what I > am saying: I think her teachings are being misrepresented. Ph: Of course she teaches based in all three baskets. I think Nina said that when she teaches in Thai, there are more references to suttas. This could be because she senses that Westerners are prone to being impatient about results, and as we've discussed before, in my opinion we can misinterpret suttas in an unintentional way because of our desire for fast results. > What she does say, rightly I think, is that > as soon as people hear about satipatthana, they want to practice it, > they want to get it. There is no patience. There is only lobha then, > there's isn't understanding, that sort of thing. > > James: But its okay to have lobha about Buddhist practice. What > starts out as lobha for the practice usually turns into real insight. Ph: I don't know about "usually." But I agree that askuala lobha in this area can be the condition for kusala. That is true. Technically, I guess we're talking about chanda, which can be kusala or akusala. Certainly there is not only chanda but a kind of grasping lobha for me when it comes to Dhamma study. I reach for my volume of Samyutta Nikaya the way an alcoholic reaches for a bottle, as a kind of escape from the real world. (This is what Naomi accuses me of at times, and at times she is right.) So at times it is not good. At other times there would be ksuala chanda. Too hard to pinpoint. But you're right. > For example, there was a monk who couldn't stop thinking about his > wife (sexual desire) and wanted to disrobe, so the Buddha took him > psychically to one of the deva realms where they have very beautiful > and sexy nymphs. The Buddha then asked this monk if his liked these > nymphs and he said yes, so the Buddha promised him that if he > continued to practice the Buddha would allow him to get some! So, it > was extreme lobha, sanctioned by the Buddha which got him to practice. > Later he became enlightened and released the Buddha from his promise- > the monk wasn't interested anymore ;-) Ph: Is this a Dhammapda story? It sounds a bit peculiar to me. I'm not sure of the reliability or value of Dhammapada stories. THey contain such vivid incident, but... Who penned them anyways? If this is not a Dhammapada story, please disregard this question. > > James: Actually meditation may not be a great idea for you at the > present moment (mindfulness would be better), but I don't believe it > is because of Spiritual Materialsim. It is because you might try to > use meditation as a way to deflect and suppress upset feelings and > anxiety. Nowadays, you seem to be doing the same thing with > unauthentic (not personally realized) notions of anatta. (First beer, > then loving-kindness meditation, and now notions of anatta-- > mindfulness, in my opinion, is the way for you to go now—hope I'm not > getting too personal, but I'm just following your lead). Ph: James, you are almost always very astute when you analyze me. I think you're right. I do cling to these notions of anatta when I have only the faintest intellectual understanding of dhammas. (Directly understanding dhammas is the only way to come to really understand annata, because it is revealed then as a characteristic of these dhammas.) I do have success dropping irritations just by thinking in a shallow way about nama and rupa - that's true. And it's true it's just a bandaid the way the other things you mentionned were. There are some other issues at play now that I think I will write to you about off-line tonight. I trust your ability to give me advice. Thanks also for your words about metta meditation. I think I've said enough about that topic for awhile. Metta, Phil 46127 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing Dear Nina (and interested members), You wrote: Dear Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I think all first five disciples or panca-vaggis were all not > sukkhavipasakaa. They all would have jhaanas. Their magga would have > been lokuttara jhaana cittas. If I am wrong let me know, Nina. ------------ N: Yes, I assume they had the highest distinctions, magga-cittas with jhaanafactors and the four patisambhiddhas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So their arahatta magga citta was attained through 5th jhaana. This is my assumption and I think it may be right. 5th jhaana here means 5th ruupa jhaana or any of aruupa jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo The Buddha first discourse says 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: When the Path is mundane it can be said: the eightfold Path is to be developed. But the factors that arise with the mundane kusala cittas are five or six. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. They are 2 panna magganga or 2 wisdom-path factors, 3 samaadhi magganga or 3 concentration-path factors. And there may or may not be one of 3 siila magganga or conduct-path factors. So you are right to say 'five or six' path-factors when it is with mundane kusala cittas. But as soon as supramundane consciousness (magga citta) arise all 8 path-factors arise instantaneously. My belief is that they all arise what ever jhaanas are based or not. Example 2nd jhaana does not have vitakka. But as soon as magga citta arise vitakka also arise and it applies the mind (magga citta) to nibbana. This is not jhaana-vitakka. But it is magga-vitakka. It is right to say that there is no vitakka in 2nd jhaana and above. But magga-vitakka has to be there to apply to lokuttara dhamma. Without vitakka there will not be magga-vitakka, phala-vitakka and there will not be samma-sankappa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would rather stick to 'atthangika magga'. -------- N: Yes, so it is called. -------- > Htoo: There is a small gap between 'actual jhaana cittas' and 'actual lokuttara citta'... --------- N: This is too difficult for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was talking arahatta magga vithi vara. It will be like BB---BBBMPUAGMPPBB--- B = bhavanga citta --- = indicates 'many bhavanga cittas'. BBB = atita-bhavanga, bhavanga-calana, bhavanguppaccheda past life-continuum, vibrating life-continum, arresting L-C M = manodvaravajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness P = parikamma kaamaavacara mahaakusala citta (seeing naama or ruupa while cognizing anicca, dukkha, anatta) or preparatory consciousness U = upacaara kamavacara mahakusala citta (the same as above but more matured ) or proximate consciousness A = anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta (the same as above but more matured) or negotiating consciousness or flowing consciousness or easing consciousness. G = gotrabhu kamavacara mahakusala citta (the most matured mundane consciousness) or lineage-changing consciousness. It is like a man on the fence just going to jump into 'nibbana' domain. M = arahatta magga citta or path-consciousness P = arahatta phala citta or fruition-consciousness B = pass into bhavanga cittas again. Before this 'BB---BBBMPUAGMPP' there might well be absorbed into any jhaana object. But jhaana has to exist and paccavakkhanaa javana or scrutinization on jhaana cittas and sees and realizes and does 4 jobs of arahatta magga cittas. These 4 jobs were done at 2nd M. 1st M is manodvaravajjana citta whereas 2nd M is arahatta magga citta. So there is a small gap. That is B 1.M 2.P 3.U 4.A 5.G 6.Magga. 1 to 5 moments is collectively referred to 'a samll gap'. In that gap there must not be absorption into jhaana object. Because it is very close to magga and all magga cittas see nibbana. Magga cittas do not see rupa jhaana object or arupa jhaana object. Magga cittas just see nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I also believe that piiti that has not arisen in 4th, 5th, aruupa >jhaana arises as soon as magga citta arises. Because 'nibbana' is > > completely different from any object ever exist and it is a complete > > bliss and the greatest joy has to arise, I think. ------- N: Yes, but I need texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. It will be more valid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina continued: I keep to the Expositor II. The feeling, upekkha, can be very calm and very refined. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding vedana or feeling, piiti or joy, upekkhaa or tatramajjhattataa there are many points to discuss. With much respect, Htoo Naing 46128 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 27, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 lbidd2 Phil: "a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it?" Hi Phil, It does for me. It is a programmed, automatic reaction, but behind it is the idea of warmth as secure and good. There is almost a religious reverence for a warm bath. Also, there is the pleasant bodily feeling and warm rupa compacted into a seeming whole. Plus there is the issue of what is water experientially. This question used to fascinate me whenever I took a bath when I was a kid. Now I take showers but there are still a lot of 'set preferences' associated with that. It's almost scripted. Larry 46129 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:02pm Subject: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re: Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 philofillet HI Larry > Phil: "a moment of reaching for the hot water tap when the bath is going > lukewarm, for example, doesn't involve diiti does it?" > > Hi Phil, > > It does for me. It is a programmed, automatic reaction, but behind it is > the idea of warmth as secure and good. There is almost a religious > reverence for a warm bath. Ph: Interesting. I'd never thought about that. I've always been kind of reverent about baths and water, now that you mention it. So I see what you mean. Thanks. > Also, there is the pleasant bodily feeling > and warm rupa compacted into a seeming whole. Ph: This is more what I was thinking of as being beyond (below?) view - just programmed response of a living creature to physical comfort. Especially when it's cold out. >Plus there is the issue of > what is water experientially. This question used to fascinate me > whenever I took a bath when I was a kid. Ph: Interesting. Your evident interest in digging into things experentially has been around since you were a kid. The only thing I can remember about taking baths as a kid was sinking fleets of ships made from shampoo bottle caps etc. >Now I take showers but there > are still a lot of 'set preferences' associated with that. It's almost > scripted. Ph: This "scripted" is why I thought there wouldn't be views, because it's all so automated due to repetitive conditioning. But you're right - there could be reverent views at work or something like that. I'm not sure. I'll probably be thinking about it when I take a shower this morning. I remember once last year I wrote down something in a notebook about noticing how I reached for the hot water tap before I thought about it or realized consciously that the water wasn't hot enough. Metta, Phil 46130 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Upanissaya Paccayo htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, ' Upanissaya paccayo pana tividho hoti. Aarammanupanissayo, anantarupanissayo, pakatupanissayo ceti'. There are 3 sub-conditions under decisive support condition or 'upanissaya paccayo'. They are 1. aarammanupanissaya paccayo or object-decisive-support condition 2. anantarupanissaya paccayo or proximity-decisive-support condition 3. pakatupanissaya paccayo or natural-decisive-support condition 'Tattha aarammanameva garukana.m aarammanupanissayo'. There are objects that should be highly regarded and they are a) 18 'ittha nipphanna ruupas' or 18 desirable conditioned ruupas b) 84 cittas ( after exclusion of 2 dosa muula cittas or 2 aversive consciousness 2 moha muula cittas or ignorant consciousness, 1 dukkha kayavinnana citta; 89 - 5 = 84 cittas) These 5 cittas are not desirable and they are actually undesirable consciousness. c) 47 cetasikas ( 52 - 5 that is dosa, issa, macchariya, kukkucca, moha = 47 ) d) 1 nibbana These 4 dhammas are aarammanaadhipati or object-predominent dhamma and they also serve as 'aarammanupanissaya paccayo' or 'object- decisive-support condition'.. 'Anantara niruddhaa citta cetasikaa dhammaa anantarupanissayo.' With the exception of vanishing 'cuti citta of arahats' all other cittas of 89 cittas and their 52 associates namakkhandhas or mental aggregates all serve as anantarupanissaya paccayo to next arising 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. This is the vanishing consciousness and next arising consciousness do not have any gap and they are in contact and like proximated. 'Raagaadayo pana dhammaa saddhadayo ca sukha.m dukkha.m puggallo bhojana.m utu senaasananca yathaa raham ajjhattanca bahiddhaa ca kusalaadhi dhammaana.m , kamma.m vipaakaananti ca bahudhaa hoti pakatupanissayo.' 1. raaga, dosa, moha, maana, ditthi, pattanaa (sensuous desire, aversion, ignorance, conceit, wrong-view, expectation-attachment 2. saddhaa, siila, suta, caaga, panna (faith, moral-conduct, heaving-heard or well learned, offering, wisdom) 3. kaayika sukha or physical pleasure 4. kaayika dukkha or physical pain 5. puggala to be depended on 6. bhojana or food to be eaten 7. suitable environmental condition of weather 8. suitable abode, bed, places All these dhamma serve as natural-decisive-support condition or pakatupanissaya paccayo for the dhamma of ajjhatta or internal and bahiddha or external of 21 kusala dhamma, 12 akusala dhamma, 36 vipaaka dhamma, 20 kiriya dhamma. 21 kusala dhamma are 1. 8 mahakusala cittas 2. 5 rupakusala cittas or 5 rupa jhaanas 3. 4 arupakusala cittas or 4 aruupa jhaanas 4. 4 lokuttara kusala cittas or 4 magga cittas or 4 path- consciousness ---- 21 kusala cittas 12 akusala dhammas are 12 akusala cittas and they are 8 lobha cittas, 2 dosa cittas, and 2 moha cittas. 36 vipaaka dhamma are 1. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas 2. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas 3. 8 sahetuka mahavipaaka cittas 4. 5 rupavipaaka cittas 5. 4 arupavipaaka cittas 6. 4 lokuttara vipaaka cittas or 4 phala cittas or 4 fruition- consciousness ---- 36 cittas 20 kiriya dhamma are 1. 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas 2. 8 sahetuka mahakiriya cittas 3. 5 rupakiriya cittas 4. 4 arupavipaka cittas ---- 20 kiriya cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: At 'Links' section there is a link to 'Patthana Dhamma'. Now if those pages are passed through there will be page 81. 46131 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:17pm Subject: A short message from Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Nina, Tep , Sukin and all, I will be away for a few days. With much respect, Htoo Naing 46132 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:53pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah (and all other interested members -- please join us) - This is my reply to your message #46097. It seems to me that we are now debating whether the detailed knowledge at the Paramattha- dhamma level -- through Ajahn Sujin's lectures - is absolutely necessary for a practical-minded Buddhist. S: I don't believe it's a question of anyone's words but what can be tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is seen is visible object. That's it. All that's ever heard is sound. All that's ever touched is hardness/ softness/ roughness/ smoothness, heat/cold, motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn't you agree? Tep: Knowing the five external ayatanas down to the Paramattha- dhamma details is not the idea in MN 137 and MN 148. The Buddha never asked those kinds of questions you have asked. What is the use of asking those questions anyway? Can they lead me to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana? I believe the two suttas, MN 137 and MN 147, can. What the Buddha Taught in MN 137 ============================== -- 'The six internal medium(ajjhattika ayatana) should be known'. They are : The eye-medium(cakkhaayatana), the ear-medium, the nose- medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium (manayatana). No detailed information down to the Paramattha level was ever mentioned by the Buddha. -- 'The six external sense-media (baahira ayatana) should be known'. They are: The form-medium(ruupaayatana), the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the idea-medium(dhammaayatana). No details down to the Paramattha level were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The six classes of consciousness should be known'. They are: Eye- consciousness(cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose- consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect- consciousness(mano-vinnana). No details about the 89 cittas are needed to understand this sutta. -- 'The six classes of contact should be known'. They are: Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect- contact. No details down to the Paramattha level were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The eighteen explorations for the intellect should be known'. These are the resulting vedana (somanassa, domanassa and upekkhaa) conditioned by the six classes of contact, 3 times 6 = 18. No Paramattha-dhamma details were ever mentioned in this sutta. -- 'The thirty-six states to which beings are attached should be known'. They are : '(a) Six kinds of household joy & (b) six kinds of renunciation joy; (c) six kinds of household distress & (d) six kinds of renunciation distress; (e) six kinds of household equanimity & (f) six kinds of renunciation equanimity'. These 36 states are the uniqueness of this discourse -- I have not seen them anywhere else. The key ideas of this special sutta are given as follows: abandon & transcend (a) by depending & relying on (b); abandon & transcend (c) by depending & relying on (d); abandon & transcend (e) by depending & relying on (f); abandon & transcend (d) by depending & relying on (b); abandon & transcend (b) by depending & relying on (f). Even the six kinds of profound 'renunciation equanimity' still are 'equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity' that must be eliminated in the next step. You may wish to read the rest of MN 137 yourself. I don't think you may find such excellent teaching anywhere else! What the Buddha Taught in MN 148 ============================= The Buddha said, "Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; I will expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure -- in other words, the six sextets". I don't think those questions you have asked me will ever lead me to the Dhamma which is "admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end" like this discourse. Show me that my belief is wrong, Sarah. Just read the part on "eye & forms", for example, that deals with the whole dependent arisings of all the dhammas emanating from the eye and form all the way to vedana, and shows how the "bhikkhu" should contemplate (or discern) to abandon passion-obsession and resistance-obsession, and finally to uproot ignorance obsession. "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion- obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person -- through abandoning passion- obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing -- would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible". Again, my opinion is that we don't need to apply the Paramattha- dhamma in order to understand and be able to follow the teaching of this sutta. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Phul) > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > S: <..>Perhaps you mean, > > `Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view'?? > > > > T: I meant ditthupadana. > .... > S: Thank you for clarifying. This is of course one of the four kinds of > clinging – clinging to (wrong) views. > > [Phil, yes, upaadaana is a stronger kind of craving (tanhaa). The 4 kinds > of upaadaana are: > 1) kaamupaadaana – sensuous clinging > 2) di.t.tupaadaana – clinging to (wrong) views > 3) siilabbatupaadaana – clinging to rites and rituals > 4) atta-vaadupaadaana – clinging to personality belief.] > ***** > > S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. > > > > Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: > > 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? > > 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? > <...> > > T: <...> > > But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what > > the > > Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya > > 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: > > Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). > > > > This issue is not easy to be resolved, Sarah. > ... > S: I don't believe it's a question of anyone's words but what can be > tested out right now. When we look at the computer screen, all that is > seen is visible object. That's it. All that's ever heard is sound. All > that's ever touched is hardness/softness/roughness/smoothness, heat/cold, > motion or pressure. It can be proved right now wouldn't you agree? > > I agree that we should pay very good attention to what is taught in the > suttas. Are we taught that anything else is seen, heard and so on? I don't > think so. Just briefly from the suttas you raise: > > MN137, Salayatana Vibhanga Sutta > `On seeing a form with the eye....' > `On hearing a sound with the eye....' > `On smelling an odour with the nose...' > `On tasting a flavour with the tongue...' > `On touching a tangible with the body...' > `'On cognizing a mind-object...' > ..... > MN148 Chachakka Sutta > " `The six external bases should be understood'......There are the > form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the > tangible-base, and the mind-object base....' > .... > Let me pause there and wait for any further clarification from you of > which aspects in these suttas you believe are at variance with the answers > to the questions I raised concerning paramattha dhammas. I'd be happy to > discuss these suttas further with you to try and iron out any different > understandings. > ..... 46133 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 6:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] the debate between a monk and a missionary in sri lanka Evan_Stamato... Cosmique, I finally found the book. It is called "Controversy at Panadura or Panadura Vadaya" by Hemanta Perera and reedited by Pranath Abhayasundara. It is published by The State Printing Corporation, Colombo 01, Sri Lanka. The debate took place between the Ven. Mohottiwatte Gunananda and the Rev. David Silva. You may find others in Sri Lanka. From what I gather this event is of great national pride so there should be a lot more material available in Sri Lanka that you just can't get in other countries. Hope this helps, Metta, Evan 46134 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo - It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" like those non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. Karuna, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Nina, Tep , Sukin and all, > > I will be away for a few days. > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing 46135 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 10:08pm Subject: Thank you Htoo and thank--- foamflowers Sarah thank you for the wonderful feed back on my adventure into 'Grandma Land,' this weekend I will have to time to answer back with some caring time so I can respond thoughtfully or is it mindfully?. And of course thank you Evan, Bhikku Ekamuni, Andrew, Ken, Sukinder, Nina, Tep, Larry, Phil, Connie, James, Howard, and many more wonderful people, I have lost your names on my name list but have I kept many notes from your posts, thank you so much for your efforts. I think it takes courage to put thoughts out for other people to take apart and then be able to respond with grace...there is much grace here on DSG. I've only had time to read the post lately and reflect on many of them. Between two jobs and my evening job has been short staffed of late, I've filled in to take the pressure of my boss who is working way to many hours, I've been really busy helping him. Now I can take a little breather and show my gratitude towards all of the work done here by such wonderful Dhamma People. I truly have enjoyed the posts, one and all! Htoo I would some day like to meet those old men you mentioned in some your post, the ones you seek dhamma advice from. Are they elderly Bikkhus? I don't know if I have anything to say or ask of them but I would like to meditate with you and your friends someday. It will have to be quick since you said they are in their 80's and 90's. Would they meditate with a woman if they are Bhikkus? I do not know much about monastic rules from your part of the world. I promise I'm asking because I just don't know the rules... Here are some is some of my study on Vendana: 1. In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavini, on commentator said, 'vedayati, arammananubhavanarasam anubhavati'ti vedana'. It is the feeling of an object that is called vedana. The feeling that is able to determine whether an object is good or bad, pleasant or unpleasant; neither good nor bad, neither pleasant nor unpleasant is called vedana. From the arammananubhavana, there are three kinds of vedana, sukhavedana (pleasant feeling), dukkhavedana (unpleasant feeling), adukkhamasukhavedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling). This is spoken of in the Dhammasangani of Abhidhammapitaka from the Buddha's mouth. 1. cakkhusamphassaja vedana arises (or could I use triggered, manifests or comes up?) when the eye comes in contact with a visual object) 2. sotasamphassaja vedana (arises when the ear comes in contact with a sound) 3. ghanasamphassaja vedana (arises when the nose comes in contact with a smell) 4. jivhasamphassaja vedana (arises when the tongue comes in contact with a taste) 5. kayasamphassaja vedana (arises when the physical body comes in contact with a tangible object) 6. manosamphassaja vedana (arises when the mind comes in contact with a mental object) These six kinds of vedana are referred to in the Majjhima Nikaya text and also the Chachakkasutta and I guess many others as well. These vedana of three, five, six and so on, are nothing but cetaskika (mental concomitants) with each and every citta(mind or consciousness) that arise from moment to moment. Like vedana, there are six other cetasikas that arise, that follow along with the mind or consciousness. Each of these seven cetasikas are also known as sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, are involved with all kinds of mind or consciousness. There are seven sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, vedana is the second cetasika. Also there are five khandhas-rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha. Vedana is the second Khanda of the above mentioned five. Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). In the Pathamaja Sutta, Mahasalhayatanika Sutta, Samadhi Sutta, and from references I found many other suttas that also mention this, there are five objects of vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). There are five pasadarupa (sensitive corporeality) such as cakkhupasada and so on, one of these five being the first object of Vipassana meditation. Also included there are five objects such as visible objects and one of one of the five being the second object. There are five consciousnesses such as cakkhuvinnana(eye consciousness) and one of these five consciousnesses being the third object. Phassa (contact) cetasika is the fourth object. Vedana cetasika is the fifth object. Vedana is the fifth object of the five. Vedana plays a large part in tanha (Dependent Origination?). When tanha is triggered it is because of sensation or vedana, which brings with it upadana, bhava and jati close behind it, I read they usually follow and there is no controling this force once tanha has been triggered or manifested or arisen (which is a better word to use?) So if tanha, which belongs to samudayasacca (2nd Noble Truth), is not cut, like cutting away the root of a weed, all that follows will become dukkhasacca (1st Noble Truth) that is everything that is born and passes away and will suffer from grief, sorrow, pain and despair from this cycle of birth and decay. Question: Is Vedana the cause of tanha or is it the cause of panna? Samahito sampajano, sato Buddhassa savako Vedana ca pajanati, vedananam ca sambhavam. Yattha ceta nirujjhanti, Maggam ca khayagaminam Vedananam khaya, bhikkhu nicchato parinibbuto ti. Samyutta-nikaya IV A follower of the Buddha, with concentration, awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, knows with wisdom the sensations, their arising, their cessation and the path leading to their end. A meditator who has reached the end of all sensations (stage of Nibbana) is freed from craving, fully liberated. Concomitants: something that happens with something else and is connected with it With Metta, Lisa 46136 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Greetings egberdina Hi all, In short, I'm back again :-) For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have their areas of interest :-) For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do anything out of the ordinary to delay it. I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Kind Regards Herman 46137 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 9:26pm Subject: Re: What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It egberdina Hideho Howard, Sorry for posting on top. I liked your post very much. It prompted me to write. I too have been pre-occupied with this business of knowing of late. Very complex indeed. Following on from your comments re indirect processing, I am sure there is an object-free kind of knowing. To explain my point, I am hoping that others will be familiar with the experience of knowing that you know something, without knowing the specific details. Conversely, there is also the experience of knowing that you don't know something. If someone were to ask me what the postcode of Blayney is, I would know that I know it, without knowing it's detail, and be able to come up with the precise answer shortly afterwards. Conversely, I know that I do not know the postcode(s) of Long Island, and would not bother trying to remember. It seems to me, that at any point of time, there is a constantly changing web of background context knowing, that knows what is known and not known, free of specific characteristics. I think this is very relevant to Buddhism. Without Nibbana Buddhism has nothing to offer anyone. I would qualify as a setting in which Nibbana can be "known" any scenario in which there is no background knowing. When social behaviours, rules of language, rules of thinking fall away not only as foreground, but as background as well, then relationless "consciousness" has an opportunity to know itself, so to speak. Ah, to be a sessile sea anemone :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Just a brief thought that occurred to me while on vacation: Let us > consider a single mindstate - for example, a state of seeing. What is involved in > that visual object? As I understand it to be the case, that experiential object > is an entire palette of varying colors and intensities of color and brightness > at varying "locations". There are also relational patterns among the parts of > that object, quite intricate in their complexity. All that is there, but > isn't known at all in detail but only as a unity. It takes enormous subsequent > mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probably not to carve out, > characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, > let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. What > that processing reveals was there to begin with but only implicit in the original > mindstate. Perhaps in an advanced ariyan developed wisdom can directly grasp > all the details without additional processing, but for worldlings and lesser > ariyans, without the subsequent processing some of which we must properly think > of as elementary, proto-conceptual processing, most of the factual detail of > our experience would be missing. My point, then, is not to be too quick to > turn up our noses at the cognitive, "indirect" processing that is in constant > operation. Without it, we would each be much like what David Kalupahana, quoting > William James, likes to call a sessile sea anemone. > > With metta, > Howard > 46138 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 27, 2005 10:29pm Subject: The Prison of Pride ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Catastrophic Conceit 'I Am' : All the egoism is born right when assuming impersonal and transient phenomena, such as body, feeling, perception, mental construction, & consciousness to be 'I-Me-Mine, thereby conceiving the idea: 'I am'! At once hereafter one falls desperately in love with this hypothetical ego, exalts and gratifies & even worships it, as the dearest possession of all !!! Pride is born right here. By comparing this non-existent entity: 'My Personal Identity' with external equally conceived perceptions, one erroneously concludes: 'I Am! Better than ...'... Arrogance is born there! Or one concludes equally erroneously: 'I Am! Worse than or Equal to...' When there is pride, there is bound to be wounded pride! Because of that I-construing, ego-love & self-overestimation, one cannot respect what should be respected. Feeling threatened by any realistic evaluation of this adored 'ego', all potential 'critics' or 'competitors' are violently repressed... By clinging to this cherished idea of 'Myself', harming, hate, ill-will, and violence thereby come into being. Even wars are initiated by immature & infantile imagination of 'Own Greatness' or 'National Lead'! Thus more than fatal is verily this cramped conceit that 'I Am this & that'! Serene joy is however connected with open, free & detached impersonality. If there is no 'I', no 'Me', what then to be proud of, & violently defend ? As the blessed Buddha said: Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desire. Blissful is dwelling in complete harmlessness. Blissful is solitude for one content & learned. But best is the bliss of uprooting the conceit 'I am'! Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 Frequent reflection on the impermanent & transient flux of all internal and external phenomena, leads towards this counter-intuitive yet crucial comprehension of the fact of 'No-Self'... Quite Freeing that indeed is... Sabbe Dhamma Anatta ... All States are Selfless !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46139 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: Greetings christine_fo... G'day Herman, :-) Haven't been around much myself over the last six months or more ... just reading posts when I can, and a very occasional scribble on dsg. I owe a few people posts and will try to make amends. Nice to see you here again ... you were missed. Now .. be gentle with everyone ;-) metta and karuna, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) > > For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male > married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming > more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as > found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have > their areas of interest :-) > > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be > a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do > not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do > anything out of the ordinary to delay it. > > I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 46140 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:13am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah (and Nina), I have finished reading `Realities and Concepts' by K. Sujin and my comments are related to your discussion. I have some comments and notes about this reading which I will insert into this discussion because I don't wish to start a seperate thread. Following Tep's method of summarizing points, I will summarize what I agreed with and disagreed with from K. Sujin's article: AGREED POINTS: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) DISAGREED POINTS: 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. 2.`Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. Metta, James 46141 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings jonoabb Hi Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) Welcome back ;-)) > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be > a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do > not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do > anything out of the ordinary to delay it. Sorry to hear about your recent depression. For one who leaves this life having developed awareness and understanding, no matter how little, the day of death is indeed a better one than the day of birth. > I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Birth is suffering, but birth as a human being with the opportunity of hearing the teachings is a very rare and fortunate opportunity. Fortunate suffering, sublime cruelty. Take care Jon 46142 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:18am Subject: There are Arhats today dacostacharles Hi all, I spoke with one of my Theravadan teachers (an old monk from the Tai forest tradition). He said there are Arhats today, we just don't know who they are. This is because we can never know every thing that goes on in the mind of another, so only the individual can know if he or she has reached that level. After the talk, I began to understand that it is unimportant if this person or that person is an Arhant. For individual, what should be most important is "where you are now" (i.e., which level) and how can you progress. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 46143 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 4:11am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 205 - Zeal/chanda (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As regards the kåmåvacara sobhana cittas, they are always accompanied by chanda. Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is accompanied by chanda which is zeal for kusala, which desires to act in the wholesome way. It searches for the object the kusala citta cognizes and it assists the kusala citta in carrying out its task. One may wonder what the difference is between kusala chanda and kusala cetanå which “wills” kusala. Kusala cetanå is the wholesome intention, kamma, which can motivate a wholesome action and which is able to produce its result later on. Moreover, kusala cetanå directs the accompanying dhammas in carrying out their functions in a wholesome way. Thus, its characteristic and function is different from the characteristic and function of chanda. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46144 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & Nina, I hope you both read this on your return too! --- htootintnaing wrote: > Nina wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path > factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more > texts. ... S: I have a passage I'd marked (and forgotten about)in 'Dispeller' (Sammohavinodanii) which clearly confirms Nina's explanation of the Vsim Tiika comments with regard to lokuttara cittas arising without sammaasankappa when 2nd-5th jhanas are used as basis: Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: "This is the distinction according to determining by the jhaana which is the basis [for insight]. According to determining by the jhaana which is the basis [for insight], firstly in an obtainer of the first jhaana who is employing insight after emerging from the first jhaana, the path which arises is of the first jhaana. But here the path factors and the enlightenment factors are complete. "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the second jhaana is of the second jhaana. Here the path factors are seven.* "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the third jhaana is of the third jhaana; but here the path factors are seven and the enlightenment factors six.** "So also from one emerging from the fourth jhaana up to one emerging from the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception." footnotes: *"Owing to absence of sa"nkappa,since vitakka is absent in the second jhaana." **"Through absence of piiti in the third jhaana." ..... S: Besides this interesting point about when the Noble Eightfold Path becomes a Noble Sevenfold Path in effect, I think these passages from the commentaries make it very clear that jhaanas of differnt levels are not always the basis for enlightenment as many suggest. Indeed the Vism passage I quoted the other day (XX1, 112) clearly differentiated between a) the path arisen in a sukkha-vipassaka (dry-insight worker), b)that arisen in 'one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made jhana the basis for insight', and c)'the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight' and so on. Following on from that passage, the text(113) also refers to the seven path factors when 'paths are made to arise using the second, third, and fourth jhanas in the fivefold reckoning as the basis for insight'. It stresses that whether there then be four, three or two jhana factors, 'in each case, however, the path factors number seven...' I hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ========= 46145 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/28/05 2:46:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, In short, I'm back again :-) ------------------------------------ Howard: Which sure pleases me! Welcome back, my friend!! :-) ------------------------------------ For those who don't know me, I'm a 46 year old Dutch Australian male married self-employed stirrer. My interest in Buddhism is becoming more and more focussed on the concise and profound statements of it as found in the early Suttas. Rest assured, I'm happy for others to have their areas of interest :-) For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. --------------------------------- Howard: I hope that the emphasis here is on "coming out of"! --------------------------------- Having said that, I remain convinced that the day of my death will be a better one than the day of my birth, though I have not felt and do not feel any compulsion to bring that day forward. Neither would I do anything out of the ordinary to delay it. I cannot say other than that existence is the sublimest cruelty. Kind Regards Herman ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46146 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings sarahprocter... Hi Herman, I know you don't like a fuss or any red carpet treatment, but I'd also like to briefly join the chorus of your friends and say how glad I am to see you around again. --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > In short, I'm back again :-) ... > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. ... S: Here's hoping that the Dhamma sharing, the good humour and warm friendship here will assist too. Look forward to your reflections and wit too, Herman. Metta, Sarah p.s. hope the family are all well... =================================== 46147 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/28/05 2:46:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hideho Howard, Sorry for posting on top. I liked your post very much. It prompted me to write. I too have been pre-occupied with this business of knowing of late. Very complex indeed. Following on from your comments re indirect processing, I am sure there is an object-free kind of knowing. To explain my point, I am hoping that others will be familiar with the experience of knowing that you know something, without knowing the specific details. -------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps that is just a fuzzy knowing? A vague recollection that is sufficient for current purposes? ------------------------------- Conversely, there is also the experience of knowing that you don't know something. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's so. Possibly it's a matter of making a quick "scan" and coming up empty. ----------------------------------- If someone were to ask me what the postcode of Blayney is, I would know that I know it, without knowing it's detail, and be able to come up with the precise answer shortly afterwards. Conversely, I know that I do not know the postcode(s) of Long Island, and would not bother trying to remember. It seems to me, that at any point of time, there is a constantly changing web of background context knowing, that knows what is known and not known, free of specific characteristics. I think this is very relevant to Buddhism. Without Nibbana Buddhism has nothing to offer anyone. ------------------------------------ Howard: I completely agree. ----------------------------------- I would qualify as a setting in which Nibbana can be "known" any scenario in which there is no background knowing. When social behaviours, rules of language, rules of thinking fall away not only as foreground, but as background as well, then relationless "consciousness" has an opportunity to know itself, so to speak. Ah, to be a sessile sea anemone :-) ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I see that as a counterfeit, mediocre state compared to the Buddhist goal. ------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ======================= With metta and pleasure at having you back on DSG, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46148 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:36am Subject: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Discussion buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - The knowledge of cleansing (cognizance from imperfections or uppakilesas) actually starts with the last six imperfections in Section ii, namely: 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past breaths is attacked by distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future breaths is an obstruction to concentration. (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an obstruction to concentration. (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and is an obstruction to concentration. (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to concentration. (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to concentration. [end of excerpt] So these six imperfections of cognizance prevent it from becoming united, because they make cognizance(citta) "disquieted, perturbed and excited". They can be eliminated by means of the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing as follows. 1 - 6. Avoiding distracted thoughts of the past and future breaths; avoiding indolence by exertion; abandoning agitation by curbing the over-exertion; abandoning greed by full awareness of enticed cognizance; abandoning ill-will by full awareness of repelled cognizance. 7 - 10. Four unities are established by means of : an act of giving (dana); a nimitta in concentration; an insight gained from vaya lakkhana; a nirodha in the path. 11 - 13. The united cognizance then: enters into "purification of the way"; gains higher equanimity; is gladdened by the insight. The next important thing is the parahraphs 19 - 23 that is used again and again to describe the common characteristics of the four jhanas, the four immaterial jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and the four ariya- maggas. What are these common characteristics? -- purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. -- in that (1) cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, (2) cognizance makes way for the central state of equilibrium, which is the sign of serenity(samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, (3) cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way is the beginning. -- in that he now (1) looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and (2) looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity(samatha) and (3) looks on with equanimity(upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity(ekatta), that intensification of equanimity is the middle. -- The end has four characteristics:(1) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas(dhamma) arisen therein; (2) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function ; (3) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy(viriya) was effective; (4) encouragement in the sense of repetition. -- Cognizance possesses the above ten characteristics (3 + 3 + 4) also possesses the five jhana factors and steadiness(adhitthaana) as well as the five faculties and powers. Respectfully yours, Tep ===== 46149 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:41am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - I am grateful to all helps I have so far received from Dr. Han Tun, who is very resourceful in handling difficult Pali words. He has the original Pali text of the Patisambhidamagga and its Burmese and English translations, while I have the Thai version (and limited Pali knowledge). Whenever Han has read my new post and given me an advice on the Pali translation and other useful thoughts, I will post his message here in this "Han Tun's Contribution" thread. Respectfully, Tep ======================== From: han tun Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:32 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise / Section iii, Part 1 (message # 962) Dear Tep, Here are paragraphs 19 to 23. 19. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the first jhana? Of the first jhana purification of the way (patipadaa visuddhi) is the beginning, intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle, and encouragement (sampahansanaa) is the end. [Han: The end part needs explanation. At the end of paragraph 18 the Pali word is sampahansitam which is translated as satisfaction. Here in paragraph 19, the Pali word is sampahansanaa which is translated as encouragement. Sampahansitam and sampahansanaa are grammatical inflections of the same word, namely, sampahansita. In Burmese translation it is translated as `gladdening.' So, you see that the same Pali word is translated as satisfaction, encouragement and in Burmese translation as gladdening. Again, the Pali word sampahansita itself is a compound word. You cannot find it in Dictionary as it is. You have to break it down into sama + pahansita. Sama means calm, tranquil; pahansita means gladdened, happy, delighted. So, the reader can select the translation which he/she likes best.] 20. Of the first jhana purification of the way (patipadaa visuddhi) is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: (i) cognizance is purified of obstructions to that [jhana]; (paripantho cittam visujjhati) paripantha = obstacle, obstruction; visujjhati = cleansed, purified. (ii) because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity (samatha nimitta); (visuddhattaa cittam samatha nimittam patipajjati) visuddhattaa = after being purified; patipajjati = to enter upon, to make way. (iii) because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state. (patipannattaa cittam pakkhandati) patipanna = reaching, getting along, making way; patipannattaa = having made the way; pakkhandati = enter. And in that cognizance is purified of obstructions, and because it is purified, cognizance makes way for the central [state of quilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity (samatha nimitta), and because it has made way, cognizance enters into that state, purification of the way (patipadaa-visuddhi) is the beginning of the first jhana. These are the three characteristics of the beginning. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the beginning (aadi kalyaana), which possesses [three] characteristics. aadi = beginning; kalyaana = good. 21. Of the first jhana intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle: how many characteristics has the middle? The middle has three characteristics: (iv) he looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified; (visuddham cittam ajjhupekkhati) ajjhupekkhati = to look on with equanimity. (v) he looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity; (samatha patipannam ajjhupekkhati) (vi) he looks on with equanimity at the establishment of unity. (ekattupatthanam ajjhupekkhati) ekatta = unity; upatthana = ministering, establishing. And in that he [now] looks on with equanimity at cognizance that is purified and looks on with equanimity at it as having made way for serenity (samatha) and looks on with equanimity (upekkhaa) at the establishment of unity (ekatta), that intensification of equanimity (upekkhaa bruhana) is the middle of the first jhana. These are three characteristics of the middle. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the middle (majjhe kalyaana), which possesses [three] characteristics. Majjha = middle; kalyaana = good. 22. Of the first jhana encouragement (sampahansanaa) is the end: how many characteristics has the end? The end has four characteristics: (vii) encouragement in the sense that there was non-excess of the ideas (dhamma) arisen therein; (jaataanam dhammanam anativattanatthena sampahansanaa) jaati = arise; ana= non; ativatta or ativattati = surpassed, excess. Already explained about sampahansanaa. (viii) encouragement in the sense that the faculties had a single function (rasa = taste); (indriya ekarasatthena sampahansanaa) eka rasa means one function. Not one taste. (ix) encouragement in the sense that the appropriate energy (viriya) was effective; (viriya vahatthena sampahansanaa) (x) encouragement in the sense of repetition; (aasevanatthena sampahansanaa) aasevana = repetition are the encouragement (sampahansanaa) in the end of the first jhana. These are the four characteristics of the end. Hence it is said that the first jhana is good in the end (pariyosaana kalyaana), which possesses [four] characteristics. pariyosaana = end; kalyaana = good. 23. Cognizance that has reached the triple cycle [of beginning, middle and end] thus and is good in the three ways and possesses the ten characteristics also possesses [the five jhana factors of] applied- thought (vitakka) and sustained-thought (vicara) and happiness (piti) and pleasure (sukkha) and steadiness (adhitthaana) as well as [the five faculties and powers of] faith (saddha) and energy (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) and concentration (samaadhi) and understanding (panna). [sukkha is to be spelled with only one `k' = sukha] ----------------------------------- With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han (Attn.: interested SD members) - > > The new Pali words are great! I have put them in my > notebook so that > they can be used in my future posts. > ================================== 46150 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo, The teachings resented in the Wheel of life (some say samsara instead of life) span several levels of understanding. So any one conept (e.g., the 12 links in a chain -- DO) can be explained in different ways to people of different understandings. What you have to keep in mind is the purposes of all the teachings, even at the different levels: to explain the cycle of suffering and the way to end the cycle (i.e., with morality, wisdom, and concentration). Therefore the symbols are the same. The interpretation changes. Also, the one life time interpretation is the oldest. In that interpretation you were reincarnated due to "your" karma. Arhants are not reincarnated because they did not have any karma to burn off. Keep in mind that the earliest form of Buddhism was just a re-interpretation of Hinduism. Infact Hindus still consider Buddhism a sect (branch) of Hinduism or early Indian Thought. You already know the links (the 12 is birth to death caused by attachment gives rise to ignorance in the next life. I have to go will finish later. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 23:59 Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Charles, I am not clear. Could you please give examples in both cases? With respect, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > There is only one difference between M to M DO and 3 Life times DO, it is the length of time the events can last. The events/processes listed are the same. <.....> 46151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 6:21am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear message. Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah (and Nina), > > I have finished reading `Realities and Concepts' by K. Sujin and my > comments are related to your discussion. I have some comments and > notes about this reading which I will insert into this discussion > because I don't wish to start a seperate thread. > > Following Tep's method of summarizing points, I will summarize what I > agreed with and disagreed with from K. Sujin's article: > > AGREED POINTS: > 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. > 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. > 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes > can be > 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects > 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based > 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) > > DISAGREED POINTS: > 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. > Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this > thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings > don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, > but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in > the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined > `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. > 2.`Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a > sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in > order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her > statements that beings and people don't exist. > 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice > of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold > Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. > > Metta, > James 46152 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Tep & all) - In a message dated 5/28/05 9:22:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear message. Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ============================ I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those points were as follows: _______________________ 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don't exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates. 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. ----------------------------------------------- With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? The analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of demonstrating the emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is what the khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. Certainly there is a convention to speak of beings, but what is conventional speech is frequently not literal speech. As far as I'm concerned, no being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful shorthand speech. It is speech involving well-grounded concepts, that is, it is the expression of thinking that groups together genuinely related experiences. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46153 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:11am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Howard, > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows I will respond to your post off-list sometime later (and I don't wish for you to share it on-list- I don't want these matters to escalate any more than they have already.) Metta, James 46154 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/28/05 10:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows I will respond to your post off-list sometime later (and I don't wish for you to share it on-list- I don't want these matters to escalate any more than they have already.) -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll be happy to discuss this and any other stuff offlist. I don't consider any of this to be "personal," but just a matter of differing Dhamma interpretations and attempts by all of us to arrive at a better understanding of what is what. In any case, speaking offlist will be fine, and whatever we discuss privately will, of course, remain completely private. -------------------------------------------- Metta, James ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - [Reply to #46152] It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. Now let me continue this discussion with Howard. I don't have to keep on reminding us that this is for knowledge and possibly for adjusting our viewpoints to get closer and closer to the Truths, right? Howard, your disagreement with James' disagreed points 1 and 3 does not seem like a disagreement to me : It is partly a complementary view that comes from another angle (like those of the 10 blind men and the elephant?). Let's put a spotlight on both. James' Highlighted Disagreed Points ------------------------------------------------------- -- #1: It is wrong to say self = beings = 'people who are seen', because there is "no self". So there are no beings. "...most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates". -- #3: One must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila. James' Explanation Why He Disagrees with K. Sujin ============================================ -- #1: The no self view is radical because it follows that the Anatta principle says that beings don't exist. -- #3: The viewpoint that says "there is a person who observes dana and sila" contradicts with the "no self" view. Howard's Explanation Why He Disagrees with James ============================================= -- #1: No being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". -- #3: Beings/persons are speech involving well-ground concepts. In other words, panatti. Tep's Attempted Explanation Why Howard's View Does Not Totally Contradict with James' ======================================== #1 : You state that beings/persons is defined by "fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams" that are "viewed as units". This is the same as saying that beings/persons are defined by the five aggregates that are anatta. James also cited the five aggregates (see above). So there is no contradiction. #3 : Saying like you have said (i.e. beings/persons are pannatti) does not have anything to do with James' point #3, which is about why the "no self" view contradicts with the person who observes dana and sila. Please correct me if I have stuck out my turtle's neck too far again. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Tep & all) - > > In a message dated 5/28/05 9:22:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, James {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, Htoo, Jon, Phil} - > > I fully agree with your AGREED POINTS as well as the DISAGREED > POINTS, because I understand why you disagree with A. Sujin with > respect to those points. Thank you for being bold and for the clear > message. > > Let's continue this valuable discussion, Sarah and all others who > disagree with us. By the way, this is not debating to win; it is a two-way > peaceful communication: a Dhamma discussion. Thanks. > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > Tep > ============================ > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > points were as follows: > _______________________ (snipped) > > With metta, > Howard > 46156 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > I'll be happy to discuss this and any other stuff offlist. I don't > consider any of this to be "personal," but just a matter of differing Dhamma > interpretations and attempts by all of us to arrive at a better understanding of what > is what. In any case, speaking offlist will be fine, and whatever we discuss > privately will, of course, remain completely private. > -------------------------------------------- Thanks for understanding. Yeah, it is nothing personal- I just don't feel comfortable talking about this subject too much on this list. K. Sujin is a rather sacred cow here to some members and I don't want to upset them. Discussing these matters in detail is going to upset them- and it won't enlighten them one single bit (been there, done that). This is the New "brown rice and tofu" James who doesn't mind stating what is on his mind on occasion, but doesn't want to push it and provoke others with his views. I have nothing to prove. Metta, James Ps. Give me a while because I have school work to finish tonight. Thanks 46157 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/28/05 11:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - [Reply to #46152] It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, Tep. I wouldn't do that without James' permission. -------------------------------------------- Now let me continue this discussion with Howard. I don't have to keep on reminding us that this is for knowledge and possibly for adjusting our viewpoints to get closer and closer to the Truths, right? Howard, your disagreement with James' disagreed points 1 and 3 does not seem like a disagreement to me : It is partly a complementary view that comes from another angle (like those of the 10 blind men and the elephant?). Let's put a spotlight on both. James' Highlighted Disagreed Points ------------------------------------------------------- -- #1: It is wrong to say self = beings = 'people who are seen', because there is "no self". So there are no beings. "...most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings' as the five clinging aggregates". -- #3: One must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila. James' Explanation Why He Disagrees with K. Sujin ============================================ -- #1: The no self view is radical because it follows that the Anatta principle says that beings don't exist. -- #3: The viewpoint that says "there is a person who observes dana and sila" contradicts with the "no self" view. Howard's Explanation Why He Disagrees with James ============================================= -- #1: No being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". -- #3: Beings/persons are speech involving well-ground concepts. In other words, panatti. Tep's Attempted Explanation Why Howard's View Does Not Totally Contradict with James' ======================================== #1 : You state that beings/persons is defined by "fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams" that are "viewed as units". This is the same as saying that beings/persons are defined by the five aggregates that are anatta. James also cited the five aggregates (see above). So there is no contradiction. #3 : Saying like you have said (i.e. beings/persons are pannatti) does not have anything to do with James' point #3, which is about why the "no self" view contradicts with the person who observes dana and sila. Please correct me if I have stuck out my turtle's neck too far again. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Please forgive me, Tep, for being unwilling to discuss James' views onlist when he has indicated a desire not to. I'm sorry. I'm afraid the list will have to make do with what I have already expressed on this matter. ------------------------------------------ Sincerely, Tep ======================== With metta and respect, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46158 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... buddhistmedi... Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/28/05 11:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, Howard and James (and other members) - > [Reply to #46152] > > It is fine that James wanted to go off-list, but please come back to share > your conclusion, if any, with us. Thanks. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry, Tep. I wouldn't do that without James' permission. > -------------------------------------------- (snipped) > Howard: > Please forgive me, Tep, for being unwilling to discuss James' views > onlist when he has indicated a desire not to. I'm sorry. I'm afraid the list will > have to make do with what I have already expressed on this matter. > ------------------------------------------ > 46159 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/28/05 3:27:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever related matters you wish to express I will be very happy to discuss. I would rather leave aside James' point of view, however, because that is his wish. -------------------------------------------- But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for your understanding. ---------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46160 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: Greetings egberdina Hi everybody, Thank you all very much for your kind words. They are much appreciated. The family are all doing just fine (in worldly terms :-)). Thanks again and kind regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I know you don't like a fuss or any red carpet treatment, but I'd also > like to briefly join the chorus of your friends and say how glad I am to > see you around again. > --- Egbert wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > In short, I'm back again :-) > ... > > For those who know me, I'm just coming out of a deep depression. > ... > S: Here's hoping that the Dhamma sharing, the good humour and warm > friendship here will assist too. Look forward to your reflections and wit > too, Herman. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s. hope the family are all well... > =================================== 46161 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Andrew L, Sorry for the delay. Back to our conversation: ----------------------------- KH: > > If I remember the Discourse to Sigala correctly the Buddha did not > want laypeople to disrupt their normal daily routines. When they > followed his teaching, they understood things differently, but the > routines themselves stayed pretty much the same. ................ A: > Ken, it seems that the Buddha describes a way of making all the "directions" at peace and free from fear with specific behaviors to each of them. Liberality and sincerity to friends, supporting ones parents, carrying out the family tradition, making onesself worthy of his inheritence. ----------------------------- No one could argue with that - except to say that the Buddha taught much more. Without ever hearing a word of Dhamma, people can understand that sort of morality, but we have to understand it from the perspective of the Middle Way. ------------------------------------------------------------ A: > The only thing I can say in reply to you is that maybe we are just to 'tweak' our behavior towards others. But for me, I'd have to start working. This seems to be the center of the directions, which is why I want to know in what way it is 'goodness.' ------------------------------------------------------------- The time to start working (i.e., developing right understanding) is now. There is no self who has control, which makes it hard to talk about 'starting' work - or 'doing' anything - but that is something that can be understood, now. ------------- A: > I'll offer you this from the Maha-Mangala (SN II.4) sutta to reply to your claim that the Buddha didn't want us to disrupt our daily routines. A deity addresses the Buddha: =================================================== Many devas and humans beings give thought to protection, desiring well-being. Tell, then, the highest protection. =================================================== The Buddha then goes on to list such activities as: =================================================== Not consorting with fools, consorting with the wise, paying homage to those worthy of homage: This is the highest protection. =================================================== He then goes on to list about 30 more conditions, and ends the sutta with: =================================================== Everywhere undefeated when >acting in this way<, (emphasis mine) people go everywhere in well-being: This is their highest protection. ----------- I agree; those are the activities that lead to insight, which leads to destruction of the defilements. And destruction of the defilements constitutes protection in the highest (ultimate) sense. By understanding that teaching here and now we are already engaged in the activities it describes. But we have to understand the teaching in the way it was meant. If we understand it in the conventional manner, will it lead us to do those things? Remember, we have already had the same message drummed into us at home, at school and elsewhere for most of our lives. The way it was taught by the Buddha is not the conventional way. He taught anatta, and so we have to understand the point Phil was making - i.e., there are only dhammas. The Middle Way is travelled whenever one of those dhammas (namely, panna (right understanding)) directly knows one of the other dhammas. ------------------------------ A: > I guess there's the possibility that Bhikkhu Bodhi just recommended it for us to work with, not for us to follow to the letter. It's hard to reconcile this sutta with other instructions like to contemplate the four foundations of mindfulness. ------------------------------- The Sigala Sutta describes the perfect conduct noble disciples have towards others. Having studied the Dhamma, we know how the noble ones came to be that way: it was by practising the Buddha's teaching of satipatthana. Satipatthana is the practice of knowing dhammas as they arise. You might say we know dhammas by sitting quietly and meditating, but that is where we disagree. The way to know them is to hear and study the Buddha's teaching - starting with Abhidhamma. ------------------- <. . .> A: > I want my daily life to be based around practise, to be practise. Didn't the Buddha say he revealed a "holy life, utterly perfect and pure?" As far as one can practise this life as a layperson, I would like to. -------------------- Me too, but the practice starts and ends with knowledge of conditionality - Abhidhamma. Conditionality is everywhere and in all things. Even our desires and aspirations are conditioned - there is no controlling self. Whenever we see that - regardless of the conventional situation - we are living the holy life. Ken H 46162 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Tep: "Dear Howard and James - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought we were free to continue to discuss whatever James had left unfinished, while he and you would further your discussion off-list. But on the second thought, I think you have the right to "freeze" it because further discussion might go against James' intention. " Hi Tep, Howard, and James, Tep, I disagree with your agreements and disagreements, Howard's agreements and disagreements, and James' agreements and disagreements. If James doesn't want to discuss the points he himself raised, that's fine. But they are common points shared by many people, so I think we can and should discuss them. Please discuss. reading with interest (but disagreement), Larry 46163 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 8:22pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Howard, Well, it looks like I am going to cause more upset feelings if I don't discuss the issues you raised on-list rather than if I do. So here goes: Howard: With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? James: 1. The Buddha didn't teach that metaphor 2. It is only a metaphor and lacks detailed analysis on which to base conclusions. Howard, I have posted many times about that metaphor and how it really isn't a teaching about anatta because it is far too simplistic. It was spoken by an arahant nun as a retort to Mara. Like most retorts, it contains a kernel of truth but it was mostly spoken to confound, confuse, and chase Mara away- should that be taken as a dhamma teaching? (Many people grab onto that metaphor because it is easy to comprehend; however, true anatta isn't easy to comprehend.) Howard: The analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of demonstrating the emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is what the khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. James: There isn't any analytical approach taken there. It is a metaphor! The Buddha taught that most people in the world want to think about what exists and what doesn't exist, but the Buddha taught the Middle Path: Dependent Origination. Beings only exist dependently. You, and K. Sujin, may say that that means they don't really exist- but I find that position to be too simplistic. There isn't going to be an easy metaphor to encapsulate the dependent origination of beings or the Buddha would have spoken it. Howard: As far as I'm concerned, no being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable James: Not even if I send the FBI to find him? ;-) (just kidding) Howard: but there are fuzzy mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of mindstreams, that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". James: You're forgetting that gorgeous body that is also viewed as "Howard". ;-)) As the Buddha taught, beings are classified as the five clinging aggregates- when there is present clinging to the aggregates, there is a being. That is dependent origination- dependent on this, that arises. It doesn't do anyone any good to say that there isn't a being present when there is clinging: it just confuses the matter. Howard: As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful shorthand speech. James: No, beings are not just a matter of conventional speech. Beings exist when there is clinging to the five aggregates. For instance, someone could say that beings don't exist, only atoms exist- then someone else would say that no, only neutrons, protons, electrons exist- then someone else would say, no, only particle-waves exist- then someone else would say no, only energy superstrings exist, etc. What would be the point of all that? I believe that the secret to anatta is to realize that everything, from beings to rocks to planets to dhammas, only exist conditionally. Metta, James 46164 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Tep & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Tep, I disagree with your agreements and disagreements, Howard's > agreements and disagreements, and James' agreements and disagreements. > If James doesn't want to discuss the points he himself raised, that's > fine. But they are common points shared by many people, so I think we > can and should discuss them. Please discuss. > > reading with interest (but disagreement), .... S: :-)) Oh Larry, there must be one point at least in one of their agreements or disagreements that you agree with or agree to disagree with or agree to disagree about agreeing with...:/ Anyway, I agree with the value of discussing them further and am also reading with interest....Please clarify and discuss on too. Metta, Sarah needing a rest after some big waves today.....:-) p.s Tep & all, thx for your post and sutta quotes -- look f/w to discussing further in the next day or two. ======== 46165 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello Phil, and all, My apologies for the delay in replying to your posts of the 18 May ... I've added the links to refresh your memory :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45661 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45662 I really enjoy your posts and reflect a lot on some of your remarks and suggestions. Getting pen to paper, or rather fingers to keyboard, seems to be part and parcel of the problem over the last months ... no sticking power ... It is what it is, I suppose ... can't whip up enthusiasm, or energy, or whatever it is that is missing currently. How different to a year ago, when I could have been in danger of writing too much, and when some friends thought my interest in Buddhism was a little too intense and, maybe, unhealthy.... I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This is probably where the questioning about something standing behind the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and Ultimate Reality - comes from ... It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. Still hanging in there, but barely, metta, Chris 46166 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 28, 2005 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/28/2005 10:55:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. Still hanging in there, but barely, metta, Chris The Buddha clearly was not interested in answering question dealing with the "origin of the universe." As far as the origin of life goes, it may be reasonable to deduce that it evolved from the way the 4 Great Elements interact with each other ... and such a conclusion can be extrapolated from the Suttas within reason IMO. Things in the universe are not really dead or alive. They just interact, however they interact, based on the conditions that happen to come together. When the totality of conditional interactions are understood, the idea of self diminishes. When the idea of self is prevalent, the understanding of conditions diminishes. The Buddha speaks extensively about no-self (non-self) in the Suttas...all throughout. The way to find and best understand those passages is to read through the suttas, over and over. I don't believe understanding no-self can be achieved by asking for a reference, going to it and trying to understand it. That's not the way to understand Buddhism and I don't believe success in understanding Buddhism is possible with that methodology. Keep reading through and through the suttas and keep observing the way conditions are engaging all around and within you. That's the methodology I believe brings understanding. TG 46167 From: "frank" Date: Sat May 28, 2005 11:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta dhamma_service Hi Chris, I just wanted to address one point you mentioned: -----Original Message----- It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. -------------------------------- I would characterize it more as the Buddha pointing out the futility and frustration from pursuing speculative views about the origin of the world, living beings, etc. "hush we never mention that" makes it sound like a catholic priest relocation program. If you view the teachings of Buddhism as extinguishing a self that did not exist in the first place, it's also just a view. A view, even if correct, is ultimately useless if it doesn't lead to [im]personal insight and realization. The real secret is figuring out, every moment, if we're as happy as we can possibly be. If not, why. If yes, then are we certain that the happiness is stable and not dependent on conditions? There are very consistent patterns and conditions that accompany happiness/peace or the lack of it, and when we practice the Buddha's teaching in earnest and view every moment with insight, the connection between dukkha, anatta and happiness start to become more clear. Pursuing existential questions on the other hand would only lead to weariness, bitterness, frustration, the opposite direction of happiness. -fk 46168 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Sarah: ":-)) Oh Larry, there must be one point at least in one of their agreements or disagreements that you agree with or agree to disagree with or agree to disagree about agreeing with...:/ Anyway, I agree with the value of discussing them further and am also reading with interest....Please clarify and discuss on too." Hi Sarah, We could start with the first three on the 'agreement' side: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a shimmery whiteness. 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? I basically agree with the rest of the agreements: 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) DISAGREED POINTS: 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply walking. 2.`Practice´ consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that´s a sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) L: I think K. Sujin's position is that 'practice' (aka development) is the arising of virtuous consciousness and insight. There is no one who practices (or listens). 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that beings and people don't exist. L: This relates to the _near_ paradox of impermanence, continuity, and emptiness, with an emphasis on continuity. 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. L: The Satipatthana Sutta says "this is the only way" and includes the Noble Eightfold Path as an object of insight in various ways. Larry 46169 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:46am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Ken, I liked your bum in a shack post (just browsing here and there on what's been a happening). There's something in this post I wish to comment on. > -------------------- > > Me too, but the practice starts and ends with knowledge of > conditionality - Abhidhamma. Conditionality is everywhere and in all > things. Even our desires and aspirations are conditioned - there is > no controlling self. Whenever we see that - regardless of the > conventional situation - we are living the holy life. > ==== I have always considered something that describes everything to be describing nothing at all. (As a silly illustration, if I were to say that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and non-beings). It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that talking about conditions can make any sense. Having made the distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of conditionality, rather than its negation. Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? Kind Regards Herman 46170 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 0:29am Subject: First "I"-dentification, then Enmity follows like a shadow that never leaves ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Silly Confrontational Opposition: "I"-Dentification leading to aversion: "'I Am'... Green, while 'You Are'... Blue"; "Therefore 'I Am' Against 'You'..."; "Therefore Are You Against Me..."; "Therefore I Fear You !!!"; "Therefore I Hate You !!!" Non-"I"-Dentification leading to harmony: "This is Green, while that is Blue ..." "So is it! So be it! Let it be! Let it go!..." "Polarity is Pain and Diversity is Noise..." "Unity is Peace and Harmony is Bliss..." "As we both & all can, so let us Meditate!" Please repeat the argument exchanging the Green/Blue pair with these common pairs: Black/White, Rich/Poor, Educated/Uneducated, High/Low, Man/Woman, Young/Old, Big/Small, Intelligent/Stupid, Beautiful/Ugly, Strong/Weak, Eastern/Western, North/Southern, RaceX/RaceY, ReligionX/ReligionY, CultureX/CultureY, etc... SkinX/SkinY NationalityX/NationalityY, etc... PoliticalX/PoliticalY, ColorX/ColorY, etc... FamilyX/FamilyY, GroupX/GroupY etc....! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 46171 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta egberdina Hi Christine, I was very heartened by your post, even if it was for the most selfish of reasons. More below. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Phil, and all, > > My apologies for the delay in replying to your posts of the 18 > May ... I've added the links to refresh your memory :-) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45661 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45662 > > I really enjoy your posts and reflect a lot on some of your remarks > and suggestions. > Getting pen to paper, or rather fingers to keyboard, seems to be > part and parcel of the problem over the last months ... no sticking > power ... It is what it is, I suppose ... can't whip up enthusiasm, > or energy, or whatever it is that is missing currently. How > different to a year ago, when I could have been in danger of writing > too much, and when some friends thought my interest in Buddhism was > a little too intense and, maybe, unhealthy.... > > I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... > but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This > is probably where the questioning about something standing behind > the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just > what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and > Ultimate Reality - comes from ... > > It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that > basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having > really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the > how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the > first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to > questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never > mention that ...' variety .. > > Still hanging in there, but barely, > metta, > Chris ==== The selfish reason being that there is another questioner out there, I am not alone :-) You're going to get bombarded with great advice from all your friends with regards to your hanging in there, and I am not going to be an exception ! I have not been able to come up with any answers to my own questions, but I have found recipes in the canon that make this futile existence bearable. I read the Sutta Nipata IV.5 Paramatthaka Sutta as saying that there is no need to analyse samsara, that there is no benefit in seeking a support in knowledge. (which is quite at odds with the program of scholastic Buddhism) . The social worker who remains viewless, with what can they be identified in the world? :-) How does one remain viewless? Only at the foot of a tree, with that tree being nothing more than a metaphor for a setting where freedom from thinking reigns supreme !! Kind Regards Herman 46172 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo philofillet Hi Tep > It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" like those > non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I > hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. Sorry to analyze such a friendly greeting, but... ...I would point out that peace of mind is something that we can find at anytime, in any situation, if there is awareness of the reality that is arising at the time. (Big if!) I have learned that there is calm with every kusala citta, though I couldn't tell you right now what paramattha dhamma that "calm" is. So when there is kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a dependency for peace and quiet...(not that that is the case for you.) Again, sorry for being picky about a friendly greeting! Metta, Phil 46173 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet Hi Chris > It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that > basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having > really existed) self. Ph: Not only Abhidhamma, of course. So many suttas point at that too. It seems that a common progression is revulsion > dispassion > abandonment. Yeah, I think nibaana means "extinguishment" doesn't it? That's why I wonder about nibaana being described as blissful. And it's why I can't get motivated by the notion of nibaana. Between you and me and anyone else reading, I like the idea of being reborn again and again but with a gradually purified citta stream that leads to nicer and nicer lifetimes. But of course it doesn't work that way. One day I saw a graffiti that said "Check your motivations" and it amde me think of Dhamma and I had to be honest with myself and say that I am not motivated towards nibaana. I want a sweeter samsara. Which is not wise. > This doesn't explain anything to me about the > how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the > first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to > questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never > mention that ...' variety .. Ph: Well, we know that the Buddha refused to answer this question. He said that the important thing is to get that poisoned arrow out first. Are you like the man in that sutta asking about the origin of the wood that made the arrow and so on. Fair enough if you are but I would say the "hush" comes from the Buddha, not from Kh Sujin or this group or so on... > Still hanging in there, but barely, Keep on hanging' in there Chris. :) Metta, Phil 46174 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:12am Subject: Vissuddhimagga Evan_Stamato... I can't believe it!!! Based on discussions on this forum, I decided to order my copy of the Vissuddhimagga. I have since received it and have started reading it. I ordered it from amazon.com as their prices are usually the best. Only today I found out that there is a free copy available on the net!!! Well, for those wanting to read this book just go to: http://www.budaedu.org/en/book/II-02main.php3 for your free copy. Metta, Evan 46175 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 206 - Zeal/chanda (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda is a necessary factor for all kinds of kusala, for dåna, for síla and for bhåvanå. When we, for example, visit a sick person, when we want to console someone who is in trouble or when we try to save an insect from drowning, there has to be kusala chanda which assists the kusala citta. If there were no wholesome zeal, “wish to act”, we could not perform such acts of mettå (loving kindness) and karuùå (compassion). Chanda is also a necessary factor for the development of calm. The Atthasåliní ( I, Part V, Chapter 13, 194) states in the section on the development of the meditation subjects which are the “divine abidings” (brahma vihåras) of mettå, karuùå, muditå (sympathetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity) : * "…the wish-to-do (chanda) is the beginning; the discarding of the hindrances is the middle; absorption is the end…" * In order to develop a meditation subject the wish-to-do is necessary. Without this wholesome desire one could not develop it. When calm has been developed more the hindrances can be temporarily eliminated and jhåna can be attained. Also at the moment of jhånacitta there is chanda. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46176 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:54am Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Don't feel sorry about nit-picking a friendly greeting, or even to criticize my meditation practice! I can clearly see your good intention, and that's all that matters. You said it well, but .. : Phil : ... when there is kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a dependency for peace and quiet.. Tep: It is true that calm may arise because of other conditions (paccaya) besides seclusion like reflecting on giving (dana) and virtues(sila). But to say that meditation is a two-sided sword for a naive beginner is like saying that eating good foods can cause obesity in ignorant and lazy people. Karuna, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > > It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" > like those > > non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I > > hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. > > > Sorry to analyze such a friendly greeting, but... > > ...I would point out that peace of mind is something that we can > find at anytime, in any situation, if there is awareness of the > reality that is arising at the time. (Big if!) I have learned that > there is calm with every kusala citta, though I couldn't tell you > right now what paramattha dhamma that "calm" is. So when there is > kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. > > We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that > we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy > world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than > helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a > dependency for peace and quiet...(not that that is the case for you.) > > Again, sorry for being picky about a friendly greeting! > > Metta, > > Phil 46177 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? ======================== I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46178 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Phil) - In a message dated 5/29/05 1:55:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: I've been 'away' tasting other spiritual paths .. sufism mainly.... but speaking with many people of other spiritual traditions. This is probably where the questioning about something standing behind the aggregates, non-duality, soul, ground of all being, and just what DID the Buddha actually teach about non self, nibbana, and Ultimate Reality - comes from ... It seems to me from what I've learned of the Abhidhamma that basically the aim is complete extinguishment of the (never having really existed) self. This doesn't explain anything to me about the how and why of the existence of beings and material phenomena in the first place, and whether there is anything else. Most replies to questions of this sort are, more or less, of the 'Hush we never mention that ...' variety .. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I've gone through such "searching", Chris, and what I think what one has to ask oneself is "What sort of 'how and why' answer would satisfy me?". I concluded that *no* answer, so long as it is just a story - just a bunch of words and pictures - would satisfy me. I, personally, have no doubt that there is a true reality, that it is "right here", that while it may be multi-faceted, it is also unitary, that it is available for a complete, direct knowing - so direct that even "face-to-face" is too indirect to properly describe it, and that such knowing will not disappoint but will be the greatest delight and a perfect freeing. I also believe that the Buddha discovered and graciously presented "the" complete means to attain enlightenment and freedom but that important features of that practice are to be found in bits and pieces throughout all the religions of humankind. --------------------------------------------- Still hanging in there, but barely, --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that trusting that there is a truth - there is a reality, and trusting in that to-be-discovered truth is what can get us through, because the more one practices in a serious way without second guessing, anticipating results, or succumbing to impatience, the more results come and the more one's confidence and trust grow. -------------------------------------------- metta, Chris ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Now you already admit that 'Yes, we learn through trial and error. >That is a fact of life.' So why to bother practising? > > Yes, the conventional notion of 'practice' is of something that necessarily involves error. However, I think that in the teachings it means the actual development of insight (and in this respect it is similar to effort, determination and the like). This brings me back to the question of formal sitting meditation. I would still like to know exactly what this means, in terms of samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana, and why you see it as being more important than other forms of samatha and vipassana bhavana. Jon 46180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Okay, I can see a new angle in your comment about the sutta, >especially MN 10 and DN 22, with emphasis on bodily postures rather >than on walking specifically. But that is because the "walking >meditation" involves only two bodily postures: walking and standing (at >the end of the walking path). It does not mean that walking meditation >(meditation while walking and standing) is wrong. The sitting and lying >down postures should be a part of the everyday meditation when you >are not meditating while walking (and standing). > Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily posture (i.e., satipatthana no matter whether walking, standing, sitting or lying). Talking of the big picture, the 4 bodily postures are only a part of kayanupassana, and kayanupassana is in turn only 1 of the 4 foundations of mindfulness that *together* constitute the 'one way' spoken of at the beginning of the sutta. All 4 aspects need to be developed in order to attain the goal. Do you see any particular one as being more important than the other three? >If you have read my other posts so far, you may have seen that there >are both samatha&vipassana or sati&sampajanna in "walking >meditation" the same as one can see in the Satipatthana Sutta. > Yes, I have of course read your other posts ;-)). I particularly appreciated the point made recently (I think it was in one of your posts, but have no way of checking now) that in the Satipatthana Sutta, 'mindfulness' includes concentration, since the 2 path factors of samma-sati and samma-samadhi together make up the concentration factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments on this difference? >Thank you for the continuing attention, > You too, Tep. Jon 46181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Jon, so what is or what does that mean when you quote 'he >applies his will;'? > >What is or what does that mean 'he scrutinises;? > >What is or what does that mean 'he strives;'? > >I would be very much grateful if you could answer straight. > > You may have seen the recent Visuddhimagga passage posted by Larry, describing the mental factors of lobha ('greed'), <>, and moha ('delusion'), <>. That is to say, when the mental factor of lobha/moha is present, the person is said to be greedy/deluded. In the same manner, when we read passages like: 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives', what is being referred to is the underlying mental atate. The (kusala) mental factor of energy (viriya) is present, so the person is said to strive. As I understand it, the Buddha did not use striving to mean the akusala moments that precede kusala, but only to refer to the striving that accompanies kusala (in this regard, 'striving' is similar to 'practice'). So I would say that 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives' refers to different stages or forms of kusala connected with the development of insight. Jon 46182 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, no particular action is needed for the arising of insight. > I'm not sure why you are telling me this except that maybe you think >I believe a particular action is necessary. No, Jon, if I believed >that then I would believe in rituals, which I don't. However, I do >believe that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of >insight. Actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa: >sitting, walking (slowly and mindfully, not to travel anywhere), >standing, and lying. These are all bodily actions which can be >conducive to the arising of insight because they are conducive to >increased concentration. > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? Or is the difference one of degree only? 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to awareness of nama and rupa than others. >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? Jon 46183 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >DN 22 always includes internally, externally, internally-externally. >And it always includes seeing the cause(and the event), seeing the >cessation(and the event), seeing cause&cessation(and the event). > >These are actually momentary-sacca or momentary-realization. > Agreed. >When rupa-nama arise and pass away, impermanance is seen and >realization of suffering (naama-ruupa) is seen, the cause is also >seen, the cessation is also seen and this vihati or such abiding is >just right on the right path and this is developing of the path >momentarily. > Agreed >This is loki magga and loki sacca when naama and ruupa are seen >during any stage of the day(this also include night). > Agreed >There are experts but as they are frail I do not want to bother them >much as they are approaching to their 9th decade or 10th decade. > >When 'simple instructions' are heard people with intelligent pack of >abhidhamma knowledge would deny those 'instructions'. > I think you have in mind here the passage 'Meditate, Ananada/Cunda, meditate'. Could you tell us something about the Pali term here that is translated as 'meditate', and what it means? Thanks. Jon 46184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: You jumped too fast to the conclusion, Jon. The word "real action" >means the same as "resolutely striving". > >What is striving? > >Sarah gave a good definition for striving in # 42699: > >S: "So'striving' is the right effort in the development of vipassana >bhavana as you said, which develops with clear comprehension >(sampajaana or panna) and mindfulness (sati) until they become balas >(powers) along with saddha (confidence) and concentration (smadhi). >As you said this is` "without a 'self' directing the effort, or lobha that >yearns for results".' > >But what is the right effort (four right exertions)? > >Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four >frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its >requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these >qualities is its development." -- [MN 44 ] > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of insight development. Is this how you see it? To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. Jon 46185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 5/29/05 9:32:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, no particular action is needed for the arising of insight. > I'm not sure why you are telling me this except that maybe you think >I believe a particular action is necessary. No, Jon, if I believed >that then I would believe in rituals, which I don't. However, I do >believe that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of >insight. Actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa: >sitting, walking (slowly and mindfully, not to travel anywhere), >standing, and lying. These are all bodily actions which can be >conducive to the arising of insight because they are conducive to >increased concentration. > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? Or is the difference one of degree only? 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention? ------------------------------------------------ I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to awareness of nama and rupa than others. ---------------------------------------- Howard: How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought? --------------------------------------- >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? Jon ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46186 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - This is one of the rare moments I have waited for -- when we can reach an agreement and the case is closed! > Jon: > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right > effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of insight development. Is this how you see it? > > Jon: To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. > T: Yes, of course, that's how I see it too. Right effort accompanies right mindfulness when right view is being developed; similarly, right effort and right mindfulness induce right thought, right action, and right livlihood. Importantly, right concentration (defined in MN 10 and DN 22 as the 1st through 4th jhana) is supported by the other 7 Path factors. When all the 8 Path factors arise together, both samatha & vipassana are yoked together. Yours truly, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Tep: You jumped too fast to the conclusion, Jon. The word "real action" > >means the same as "resolutely striving". > > > >What is striving? > > > >Sarah gave a good definition for striving in # 42699: > > > >S: "So'striving' is the right effort in the development of vipassana > >bhavana as you said, which develops with clear comprehension > >(sampajaana or panna) and mindfulness (sati) until they become balas > >(powers) along with saddha (confidence) and concentration (smadhi). > >As you said this is` "without a 'self' directing the effort, or lobha that > >yearns for results".' > > > >But what is the right effort (four right exertions)? > > > >Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four > >frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its > >requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these > >qualities is its development." -- [MN 44 ] > > > > Thanks for this explanation. I see 'resolute striving', or 'right > effort' as being one of the mental factors that accompanies a moment of > insight development. Is this how you see it? > > To my understanding, right effort does not have anything to do with the > (akusala) moments that *precede* a moment of insight. > > Jon 46187 From: "Joop" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 8:18am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Well, it looks like I am going to cause more upset feelings if I don't > discuss the issues you raised on-list rather than if I do. So here goes: > > Howard: With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? > > James: 1. The Buddha didn't teach that metaphor 2. It is only a > metaphor and lacks detailed analysis on which to base conclusions. > Howard, I have posted many times about that metaphor and how it really > isn't a teaching about anatta because it is far too simplistic. It > was spoken by an arahant nun as a retort to Mara. Like most retorts, > it contains a kernel of truth but it was mostly spoken to confound, > confuse, and chase Mara away- should that be taken as a dhamma > teaching? (Many people grab onto that metaphor because it is easy to > comprehend; however, true anatta isn't easy to comprehend.) Hi James, and all Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something too. The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't play a role in my thinking) uses, is: - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five heaps. - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too This is an incorrect and false logic. Why? Becauase the first statement had not to be understood as a general, abstract, scientific- psychological statement. It had to be understood as a soteriological statement: If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the illusion of your "self". I'm sure that there are no quotes from the Sutta's like "the Others don't exist" (in a paramatthic way), such as there are quotes "I don't exist". Of course such a quote about the "Others" cannot be found, Buddhism isn't amoral: How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Metta Joop 46188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 8:33am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Our conversation on satipatthana, and the ways it may be developed, continues in this post. >Tep: The sitting and lying down postures should be a part of the >everyday meditation when you are not meditating >while walking (and standing). > Jon: Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily posture ... Tep: But don't forget that the sutta also specifically states that the breathing meditation should be carried out while the bhikkhu is sitting with legs crossed and straight back. Jon: Talking of the big picture, the 4 bodily postures are only a part of kayanupassana, and kayanupassana is in turn only 1 of the 4 foundations of mindfulness that *together* constitute the 'one way' spoken of at the beginning of the sutta. All 4 aspects need to be developed in order to attain the goal. Do you see any particular one as being more important than the other three? Tep: I can see the particular persistence in your argument that the 4 postures must be taken as equally important within the broader picture of the 4 foundations of mindfulness. But this viewpoint can be compared to the disadvantage of being so biased toward seeing the forest that one may fail to see the trees (each species of trees do not look the same). Jon: It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments on this difference? Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to develop such conditions are another. But regardless of the means, the end result -- sati (mindfulness) -- is the same for all tools except for the strength of sati itself. For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, concentration, and insights. The 4 tetrads are built upon the four foundations of mindfulness. This Anapanasati tool not only supports conditions for sati and sampajanna, it also supports concentration and insight knowledge development -- i.e. yoking samatha and vipassana together. On the other hand, the Iriyapatha tool of the kayanupassana- satipatthana in DN 22 does not result in the strength of sati and samadhi of the level given by the Anapanasati. Yet the sati and sampajanna induced by walking meditation is the same kind as that sati-sampajanna which is conditioned by the Anapanasati -- say, cats are the same kind of animal as tigers, but tigers are much stronger. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (snipped) > > It is my understanding that the mindfulness spoken of in the suttas is > mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of > the appropriate conditions, rather than a state that is induced by a > kind of directed practice. I think you can readily see that the two are > different and would lead to different results. Do you have any comments > on this difference? > 46189 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:53am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Joop - J: Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too. -- This is an incorrect and false logic.If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the illusion of your "self". -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", and "sentient beings" too. So far you only asked questions or expressed disbelief of other viewpoints. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: (snipped) > > Hi James, and all > > Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and > you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something > too. > > The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient > beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > 46190 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Thanks for getting back to me. It took you a long time- you must be very busy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. > > 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice > between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising > of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the > arising of insight? James: Yes, that's what I wrote. Did you not understand my statements? Or is the difference one of degree only? James: Not sure what you mean. What is the difference and what is the degree? (I don't do well answering leading questions) > > 2. You mention actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa > (leading to increased concentration which in turn is conducive to > insight). But I think we have to ask whether there can there be > 'attention to nama and rupa' by choice. It is, after all, because of > ignorance and wrong view that namas and rupas are hidden, and it seems > to me that only awareness and right understanding itself, and not > directed attention, can penetrate that ignorance and wrong view. James: Jon, this is the same thing you are saying all the time. I had to wait so long for this?? ;-)) > > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to > awareness of nama and rupa than others. James: This is because you have tunnel vision. The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > >James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" > >means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea > >of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question > >for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). > > > > My answer has been posted. How did I do (are you a tough grader)? James: I would give you a D+ (redundant and obstinate- but room for improvement ;-)) > > Jon Metta, James 46191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 1:16pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > > Now Egbert and Christine are 'back' (as everything, temporary) and > you made such clear messages about anatta, I like to say something > too. > > The topic that interests me most is: can I say that other sentient > beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. > - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > > This is an incorrect and false logic. James: Yes, this is an incorrect and false logic- but this is because it doesn't match the issues we have discussed. Your summaries are reflexive and don't match the original issues, therefore I can't respond. Please summarize in a different manner so that I may more clearly understand your points. Why? Becauase the first > statement had not to be understood as a general, abstract, scientific- > psychological statement. It had to be understood as a soteriological > statement: If you want to be liberated you should get rid of the > illusion of your "self". > > I'm sure that there are no quotes from the Sutta's like "the Others > don't exist" (in a paramatthic way), such as there are quotes "I > don't exist". > > Of course such a quote about the "Others" cannot be found, Buddhism > isn't amoral: How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another > sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? > > Metta > > Joop Metta, James 46192 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:33pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > ======================== > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) ==== Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll understand it :-) Thanks and Regards Herman 46193 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] philofillet Hi Joop, and all > The logic that some DSG-ers according to James (but Sujin doesn't > play a role in my thinking) uses, is: > - the ideas that "I", "my self" exist, is not correct: I'm only five > heaps. > - The "Others" are sentient beings like I am > - Conclusion: the "Others" are only five heaps too > > This is an incorrect and false logic. Ph: Well, it is also Dhamma 101 and must be appreciated if one is going to get anywhere towards developing understanding. It is also a good example of the kind of thing the Buddha predicted people would resist - one of the truths that go against the way of the world, and made the Buddha think about skipping his heroic mission. See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right." This is the mainstream view - basic Dhamma, taught in the nikayas as well as Abhidhamma. If we read a sutta like SN 18:1 (the Buddha leads Rahula through a reflection on the man, many ways concepts can be broken down into realities) and reflect on it, I don't know how on earth we can come away from that experience still insisting that people are realities. You have said in the past that you think Dhamma should be modernized or something like that to reflect the changing world. (Sorry for the paraphrase - I hope I haven't misinterpreted you.) New religions are started all the time. I would say that most forms of Japanese Buddhism are hardly recongizable as true Dhamma. But be aware that you will be leaving the Buddha's teaching behind if you reject such basic truths as the truth that people are concepts/conventions. As for others being only the khandas, well of course. Khandas are external as well as internal, as defined in the Smayuta Nikaya 22:48. Do you think the Buddha taught that the truth only applies to his followers? That would be pretty half-assed for a man of such incomparable wisdom. Maybe I misunderstand your point here... As for metta, of course there can be metta for concepts. And understanding the underlying realities needn't damage our capacity for loving-kindness and compassion for people. If anything, it leaves more room for it, more capacity, because if we have right understanding of realities there is less clinging to stories about people, fewer obstructions and conditions for partiality, and purer, more unconditional loving kindness and compassion. Metta, Phil 46194 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon and James (interested members are welcome) - There have been several satipatthana discussions at the DSG message board that center around a number of recurring issues , for example : the objects of satipatthana in general (Nina's notes) versus the objects of satipatthana in DN 22; relative effectiveness of the various objects of satipatthana in DN 22; "activities", tools (my own word) or "directed practices" (Jon's word) or "methods" in DN 22 for training sati-sampajanna. Other related issues are: What is actually satipatthana? (Nina's definition is the DSG standard. But is it exactly the same as the Buddha's definition?) How does satipatthana arise ? How is the mindfulness from "directed activities" different from "mindfulness that arises spontaneously as a result of the development of the appropriate conditions" (Jon's ) ? Well, for this post I like to focus only on the following Q&A. > Jon: > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive > to awareness of nama and rupa than others. James: This is because you have tunnel vision. The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. Tep: James has made a valid point here for the kayanupassana "activities" using breaths, bodily postures, the 32 body parts, the four basic elements in the body, etc.. In addition to helping develop sati-sampajanna, these kayanupassana activities also help the yogi to condition mindfulness on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. We should notice that there are no special "activities" for the contemplation of feeling (vedananupassana), or the contemplation of nama like citta , sanna, samyojana, etc. Do you know why? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for getting back to me. It took you a long time- you must be > very busy. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > > > Just a couple of comments for your consideration. > > > > 1. Is there, would you say, any difference in principle or in practice > > between believing that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and believing that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight? > (snipped) > > James: > > I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the > > Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to > > awareness of nama and rupa than others. > 46195 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline kenhowardau Hi Herman, Welcome back. ----------------------------- KH: > > Conditionality is everywhere and in all > things. ........ H: > I have always considered something that describes everything to be describing nothing at all. ----------------------------- Self-referencing statements are the bane of all thinkers: they almost sent Bertrand Russell insane. ------------------------------------------------ H: > (As a silly illustration, if I were to say that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and non-beings). ------------------------------------------------ Yes, and if we do see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things,' what does that leave for us seers? Who gets the kudos for that kind of seeing? The answer is obvious - conditioned dhammas get the kudos - but where is the fun in that? :-) ------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that talking about conditions can make any sense. ------------------------------- I suppose that must be true, but I can't quite grasp it. The first noble truth is 'dukkha' (in other words, "conditioned existence") and the third noble truth is 'nibbana' - the end of dukkha. If there were no 'end of dukkha,' would there be any point in discussing dukkha? I don't know. But there is an end to it, and so there is a point in discussing it. ----------------------------------------------------- H: > Having made the distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of conditionality, rather than its negation. ------------------------------- The end of conditionality is reached by means of awareness. Firstly, it is by awareness of conditionality, and secondly, it is by awareness of nibbana. ------------------------------------------- H: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? -------------------------------------------- Yes, to quote the Visuddhimagga; "Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it." Therefore, wherever there is an entity apart from the presently arisen conditioned dhammas, there is no nibbana (no enlightenment). Ken H 46196 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 29, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 5/29/05 6:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > ======================== > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) ==== Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll understand it :-) Thanks and Regards Herman =============================== Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), all available on ATI. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46197 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:15pm Subject: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Azita and all I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual understanding first? You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's obviously something that keeps coming up for me. I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... Metta, Phil 46198 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 29, 2005 9:08pm Subject: The 7 Arahat Qualities ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Qualities of an Arahat: 1: The impermanence of all constructions is perfectly seen & comprehended.. 2: The torture & addiction of all sense-desire is perfectly perceived & known.. 3: His mind is only inclined towards solitude, seclusion and detached ease.. 4: The Four Foundations of Awareness are continually & perfectly established.. 5: The Five Mental Abilities & Powers are perfectly developed & consummated.. 6: The Seven Links to Awakening are perfectly refined and fully completed.. 7: The Noble Eightfold Way is perfectly realized, accomplished & concluded.. By these 7 criteria, he clearly & invariably recognizes that for him have the mental fermentations associated with Sense-Desire, with Becoming, and with Ignorance been completely & irreversibly eliminated! Cut of at the root and like a palm tree stump never to grow again... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46199 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 29, 2005 10:03pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Chanda accompanies all types of sobhana cittas. Chanda accompanies the rúpåvacara cittas and the arúpåvacara cittas. The chanda which accompanies these types of cittas is not kåmåvacara (of the sense-sphere), but rúpåvacara or arúpåvacara. Chanda is different as it accompanies different types of citta of different planes of consciousness. Chanda which accompanies jhånacitta “searches for” the meditation subject which the jhånacitta experiences with absorption. The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which “searches for” nibbåna. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from longing for nibbåna. It assists the lokuttara citta to carry out its function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda directly experience nibbåna1. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ======