46200 From: "Joop" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:47am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jwromeijn Hallo Tep, James, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Joop, and all > > Ph: Well, it is also Dhamma 101 and must be appreciated if one is > going to get anywhere towards developing understanding. It is also a > good example of the kind of thing the Buddha predicted people would > resist - one of the truths that go against the way of the world, and > made the Buddha think about skipping his heroic mission. > > See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya > anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the > person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the > person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate > upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own > right." ... Tep My questions were 'retoric', but if you want I answer them myself: -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as suffering beings. Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", and "sentient beings" too. Joop: difficult to define something of which I know it doesn't exiast and some people have the illusion it exists. But a informal try: self is (the illusion that) we have a permanent core, even of a immortal kind (a soul) Sentient beings: two kinds: human beings and animals; and maybe inhabitants of other realms (I'm agnostic on that) James: a pity I have not understood you so that I'm on the wrong thread but misunderstandings can happen. Phil I don't know what '101' is, I think some university course in some countries, not in mine (the Netherlands, Western Europe). Your paraphrase of my ideas about new forms of combining the buddhadhamma with the 21 century is rather exact, and I think you are correct that "most forms of Japanese Buddhism are hardly recongizable as true Dhamma"; an exception is the 'critical buddhism', I think (cf. the book "Pruning the Bodhi Tree") But after these nice words I had to say it's a pity you don't see the central place the term 'soteriological' had in my message. The exemples you use in your message (I do have BB's translation and did read your quotes) I accept when I apply them to myself, because I know the Buddha said this to liberate me. But they are not meant as a kind of objective scientific psychology. When somebody says to me he has a self (or more modern: a identity), I will say to him that that is an illusion (I mean, I will do that to adults, not to my grandson who got 8 years today). But it is something else to treat other people (and animals) as only five heaps, my ethic is I had to treat them as sufferings beings. That's why I was active in trying to develop 'engaged buddhism' in my country the last months. Metta Joop 46201 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Howard; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 5/29/05 6:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Hi Howard (and Ken), > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > > > In a message dated 5/29/05 3:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofman@b... writes: > > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality where it > > applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > > ======================== > > I believe the Buddha thought so. :-) > > ==== > Could you point me in the right direction, please, by way of a sutta > quote or link. (The more succinct the statement, the more likely I'll > understand it :-) > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Herman > =============================== > Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent > origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. > But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct > knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas > from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), > all available on ATI. > > With metta, > Howard ==== Thanks for the above, Howard. The suttas you mention certainly bear out what you said. But I am a little confused. The Udana 1:1-3 portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to dependent origination later. Either way, I'm not hung up about it. Thanks and kind regards Herman 46202 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Ken, Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense, and you put it in ways I haven't previously considered. So consider it further I shall. I have to be a bit careful too, at the end of the week I'll be away from the Internet for nearly two weeks. I'd prefer not to leave any discussions in mid-air for that length of time. Good to be discussing with you again Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Welcome back. > > ----------------------------- > KH: > > Conditionality is everywhere and in all > > things. > ........ > > H: > I have always considered something that describes everything to > be describing nothing at all. > ----------------------------- > > Self-referencing statements are the bane of all thinkers: they > almost sent Bertrand Russell insane. > > ------------------------------------------------ > H: > (As a silly illustration, if I were to say > that all beings are fish, then I have said nothing of worth, because > there is no distinguishing between fish and not-fish, beings and > non-beings). > ------------------------------------------------ > > Yes, and if we do see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things,' > what does that leave for us seers? Who gets the kudos for that kind > of seeing? The answer is obvious - conditioned dhammas get the > kudos - but where is the fun in that? :-) > > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > H: > It is precisely because there is the unconditioned, that > talking about conditions can make any sense. > ------------------------------- > > I suppose that must be true, but I can't quite grasp it. The first > noble truth is 'dukkha' (in other words, "conditioned existence") > and the third noble truth is 'nibbana' - the end of dukkha. If > there were no 'end of dukkha,' would there be any point in > discussing dukkha? I don't know. But there is an end to it, and so > there is a point in discussing it. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: > Having made the > distinction between what is conditioned and what is not, it seems > that much emphasis is being placed on becoming aware of > conditionality, rather than its negation. > ------------------------------- > > The end of conditionality is reached by means of awareness. Firstly, > it is by awareness of conditionality, and secondly, it is by > awareness of nibbana. > > ------------------------------------------- > H: > Do you think that being or becoming aware of conditionality > where it applies in any way leads to a state of nibbana? > -------------------------------------------- > > Yes, to quote the Visuddhimagga; "Nibbana is, but not the man that > enters it." > > Therefore, wherever there is an entity apart from the presently > arisen conditioned dhammas, there is no nibbana (no enlightenment). > > Ken H 46203 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Azita) - In a message dated 5/30/05 12:16:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Azita and all I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual understanding first? You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's obviously something that keeps coming up for me. I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... Metta, Phil ========================== The more I contemplate your question, the more I conclude that Khun Sujin's reply is the only non-deluding one possible. To really know motion, one, of course, has to have had the experience of it in order to know "where to look" or "what to look for", but a conceptual description with any degree of detail will only serve to substitute ideas for experience. Think for a minute about the multi-layered, intricate mosaic of concepts involved in a definition along the lines of, say, "Motion is the change of position of a physical object." Still to be explicated then are "physical object", which, BTW, is, itself, a vastly complex concept involving a multitude of other concepts and strongly defiled by reification, i.e. filled with notion of self, and "change," an abstraction which suggests something that persists at the core but not at the periphery, another hardened, substantialist idea, and "position", an abstraction which may well never be actually experienced. On the other hand, phenomenalistic motion - the experience itself - is given directly to us, can be known directly by us, and when we experience it, nothing useful is further required besides clear, sharp attention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46204 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/30/05 6:35:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Thanks for the above, Howard. The suttas you mention certainly bear out what you said. But I am a little confused. The Udana 1:1-3 portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to dependent origination later. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think that may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the purpose of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. ----------------------------------------- Either way, I'm not hung up about it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46205 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 6:45am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Nina - I have seen Chanda in a few suttas. The followings are some suttas I can think of. Could you (or Nina) be kind enough to answer the questions below for me? Thank you very much. 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of these? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? 2. SN LI.20: Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta. "There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire (chanda) & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. ..." Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of the above? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? Question 5. Does this chanda search for Nibbana? 3. MN 111: Anupada Sutta "There is the case where Sariputta... enters & remains in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. intent), desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- he ferrets them out one by one. ..." Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of the above? Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? Why? Question 5. Does this chanda search for "the meditation subject" or Nibbana? If so, why did the Venerable Sariputta ferret it out? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] > > Chanda accompanies all types of sobhana cittas. > > Chanda accompanies the rúpåvacara cittas and the arúpåvacara cittas. The > chanda which accompanies these types of cittas is not kåmåvacara > (of the sense-sphere), but rúpåvacara or arúpåvacara. Chanda is > different as it accompanies different types of citta of different > planes of consciousness. Chanda which accompanies jhånacitta > "searches for" the meditation subject which the jhånacitta experiences > with absorption. > > The lokuttara cittas are accompanied by chanda which "searches > for" nibbåna. This kind of chanda is lokuttara, it is different from > longing for nibbåna. It assists the lokuttara citta to carry out its > function. The lokuttara citta and thus also the accompanying chanda > directly experience nibbåna1. > ***** > [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46206 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 9:49am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Phil: Ph: > > See note 37 on p. 1051 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Smayutta Nikaya > anthology. Only the puggalavaada's beleived in the existsence of the person (puggla). "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the > person was a mere convention (vohara) or concept (pannati) derivate upon the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own > right." Tep: I also accept the mainstream viewpoint about "existence" of a person in the sense that it is derived from the five aggregates. Importantly, I also understand that such existence is impermanent and time varying - i.e. it is inconstant and changing since the time it came into existence until the time it finally disintegrates. Thus we should view the 5 individual khandhas as anatta - in the sense of the Anattalakkhana Sutta. Joop: (answering the two questions:) -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as suffering beings. Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Tep, James, Phil > > > My questions were 'retoric', but if you want I answer them myself: > -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in > fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that > -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient > being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is > not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as > suffering beings. > > Tep: I would like to hear your specific views on "self", > and "sentient beings" too. 46207 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again, Andrew and all > > An afterthought. I know you know this already, but some people don't > understand that reducing ourselves and other people to nama and rupa > *does not* mean that there is a dehumanizing or coldness. The loving- > kindness and compassion that we feel are just as real (more real in my > opinion) as in the context of narratives. There are fewer obstacles to > a pure appreciation of other people, fewer obstacles to really and > deeply taking care of them, sometimes free from soial obligations, > sometimes in the context of social obligations. > > Metta, > Phil Phil, I would not think knowing Abhidhamma and realities in daily life would lessen compassion. I'm not that familiar with how 'knowing' ultimate realities in daily life changes daily life, but I know that good will and compassion are part of the Buddhist path and I don't think anyone would say it's not Jewish either. Thanks for your input. 46208 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 1:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew and Phil, > I do not know much about the Talmud, but as to what I heard, it is very good > sila. Very practical for daily life and composed with so much kindness and > compassion. > You do not have to follow all the rules, but you can take the essence out of > it. > You remember that my first question to you was about the Talmud? > There are stories of rabbis in Judaism which contain so much old, oriental > wisdom. Wise, practical lessons. Just delightful. We can appreciate them and > interprete them with the Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma and social life, this is not > a contradiction and we can come to understand this more deeply. > When we read in Buddhist texts about family tradition, they usually refer to > the tradition of generosity. > Nina. > op 27-05-2005 02:48 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > A.L >> If I am to carry out the family tradition, Judaism, in > > what ways can I truly carry it out while believing in Buddhist > > principles and carrying out a practise based on those tenets which > > contradict basic Jewish beliefs? > > > > Ph: Just a thought off the top of my head, but this might be a > > good opportunity for you to deepen your appreciation of Abhidhamma. > > In Abhidhdamma, there is no room for narratives, no Jews, no > > Buddhists. Nina thanks for your advice. However I still envision myself as practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing the discipline of the Dharma back to life. It made me think if I read the Dharma more carefully and with my faculties at hand I might do better with it still. Still I am unsure about whether it is necessary to have firm belief in a single creator god, for personal reasons and carrying out the family tradition. Still reading the Talmud and getting the same morality lessons strengthened could help. Prayer, and buying into monotheistic concepts and thinking all good comes from such an omnipotent god, scare me a little bit, I would much rather work with the Dharma at this point. Lastly, I would like to point out that I distinctly remember a sutta in which the Buddha told Ananda that he, the Buddha, in a former life, had enjoyed human sensual pleasures for some time, up until his hair began showing grey, at which point he left home and lived a holy life to enjoy celestial sensual pleasures after death. He told his son to do the same, to carry out the tradition, and not to be the last man carrying it out. He then came back to what was the current time period then and told Ananda that now there is the Noble Eightfold Path, and eventually, there will be one man practising it, but so long as many practise it, it will not be. Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition is to be carried out. 46209 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics gazita2002 Hello Phil and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil (and Azita) - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 12:16:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > Hi Azita and all > > I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh > Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become > irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual > descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help > us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience > the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual > understanding first? > > You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't > find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the > response you got on this point. Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question and the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even more, but that's not my intention. For example, we often talk about visible object. When cakkuvinnana sees, it sees just visible object - well when I see, I see things and people bec. there is no awareness of v.o. - no sati and panna. It must be the same for motion. when I'm driving my car there is motion but its a big story about 'me driving my car'. Howeve, I feel confident that if Sati arises at that moment then motion will be truly known, its characteristic will be known. That's what I believe, anyway. Howard has said basically the same thing -see below- > I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise > is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us > by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper > understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this > talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... > > Metta, > Phil > > Howard: The more I contemplate your question, the more I conclude that Khun > Sujin's reply is the only non-deluding one possible. To really know motion, one, of > course, has to have had the experience of it in order to know "where to look" > or "what to look for", but a conceptual description with any degree of detail > will only serve to substitute ideas for experience. > Think for a minute about the multi-layered, intricate mosaic of concepts > involved in a definition along the lines of, say, "Motion is the change of > position of a physical object." Still to be explicated then are "physical > object", which, BTW, is, itself, a vastly complex concept involving a multitude of > other concepts and strongly defiled by reification, i.e. filled with notion of > self, and "change," an abstraction which suggests something that persists at > the core but not at the periphery, another hardened, substantialist idea, and > "position", an abstraction which may well never be actually experienced. On the > other hand, phenomenalistic motion - the experience itself - is given directly > to us, can be known directly by us, and when we experience it, nothing useful > is further required besides clear, sharp attention. > > With metta, > Howard > thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my explanations :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 46210 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 5/30/05 8:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my explanations :-) ======================= Mmm, that's a deficit of mine! (Just ask James!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46211 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Hi Tep and Joop, > > Joop: (answering the two questions:) > -- Can I say that other sentient beings that I think to encounter, in > fact don't exist? Joop: No, I cannot say that > -- How can we develop metta, karuna and mudita for another sentient > being when experiencing that being as only five heaps? Joop: that is > not possible, that is only possible when we experience them as > suffering beings. > > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). > ====== What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). Kind Regards Herman 46212 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/30/05 10:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). Kind Regards Herman ========================= Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46213 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 8:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gazita2002@y... writes: > thanx Howard, a lot more 'wordy' than I could ever hope for in my > explanations :-) > ======================= > Mmm, that's a deficit of mine! (Just ask James!! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard I never said it is your deficit! ;-( I said it is your style. Metta, James 46214 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/30/05 11:34:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: never said it is your deficit! ;-( I said it is your style. ====================== Whatever! ;-)) With metta, my friend, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46215 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 30, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics lbidd2 Hi Phil, Azita, and Howard, Phil, I believe the message you are referring to is 45194. Regarding how we experience motion, the air element, I found two accounts: 1. CMI,p.238. The air element (vaayodhaatu) is the principle of motion and pressure. Its characteristic is distension (vitthambana), its function is to cause motion in the other material phenomena, and it is manifested as conveyance to other places. Its proximate cause is the other three great essentials. It is experienced as tangible pressure. 2. Various notes in Vism. This is typical: Vism.XI,n.37 ' "It blows": it is stirred; the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent locations of material groups (ruupa-kalapa)'. also, Vism.VIII,n.55 ...The ordinary term "motion" (gatisama~n~naa) refers to successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) according to conditions. Larry: I take this to mean we experience the air element ("motion") through the body door as pressure, such as the wind pressure of breathing, or the distension (swelling) of the lungs. The conventional sense of motion in the sense of one thing moving from one place to another would be classified as a concept. I think there can be a direct perception (insight) that motion in the conventional sense is empty of self-nature (sabhava). In other words, it isn't actually an object of consciousness. We can see directly that we can't see motion in the conventional sense, that it is an illusion. We might liken this to seeing how a magic trick works. Next time you see a mirage you might play with that a little. From there you could look at a tree. Can you see a tree? Can you see that you can't see a tree? Then look in a mirror. Schazam! Larry 46216 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 5/30/05 10:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > What you both say makes a lot of sense to me. There is something very > perverse about conducting a discussion on the internet that maintains > the non-existence of beings. What is said or written at any time is > never a good guide to what is actually believed; what is *done* shows > clearly what is actually believed. A message to the internet denying > the existence of beings is certainly possible, but it's content is as > meaningless as a mesaage about square circles :-). > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ========================= > Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a > way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of > rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? > ==== I'm not trying to be smart here, but it just isn't part of the definition of rainbow that it is a tangible object. With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in beings. Even thoughts and consciousness are social products, such experiences are negations of not being. IMHO :) Kind Regards Herman 46217 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 208 - Zeal/chanda (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] How do we know when chanda is kusala and when it is akusala? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attachment than kusalachanda. We are attached to a concept of sati and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different from the moment sati arises. There are many moments of forgetfulness but sometimes there may be a moment of mindfulness of only one object at a time appearing through one of the six doors. When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda which performs its function. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46218 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Good Questions – let’s see how I go: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I have seen Chanda in a few suttas. The followings are some suttas I > can think of. > > Could you (or Nina) be kind enough to answer the questions below for > me? Thank you very much. > > 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk > generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) > > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > these? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? .... 1.kama-vacara at moments of satipatthana when the 4 right efforts are being developed and lokuttara at moments when all Noble Eightfold Path factors arise and the 4 right efforts are ‘fulfilled’. 2.references to the 4 right efforts are always (as I understand) in the context of satipatthana and supramundane consciousness. Checking the context in DN22 to confirm, I see it comes under the 4NT. 3. no lobha with kusala (or sobhana to be precise) cittas. ‘Generates desire’ or ‘rouses his will’ (Walshe tansl) can easily be misunderstood. 4. :-) remember, all dhammas are anatta. Chanda is anatta, vayamo is anatta. Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that understanding as you and Jon agreed, I believe. We can say a monk generates chanda, but this has to be understood as being conventional language as Howard has pointed out. ***** > 2. SN LI.20: Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta. "There is the case where a > monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration > founded on desire (chanda) & the fabrications of exertion, > thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor > overly > active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' <...> > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > the > above? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? > Question 5. Does this chanda search for Nibbana? ..... 1. Checking the context, this is a reference to the 4 iddhi-padas or bases of success: Again when fulfilled, they are lokuttara, but kama-vacara (mundane) as predominant factors: a) chanda, b) viriya, c) citta, d) vimamsa (investigation/panna) 2. context of Iddhipaadasa.myutta. Also, see Nyantiloka’s dict for ‘iddhi-paada’. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm 3. no –same answer. No lobha with sobhana cittas 4. never, same answer:-). 5. when it arises with lokuttara cittas and nibbana is the object, yes. With mundane cittas, it ‘searches for’ or ‘wishes to reach’ the characteristic of a nama or rupa appearing. No thought of nibbana. ***** > 3. MN 111: Anupada Sutta "There is the case where Sariputta... enters > & remains in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first > jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of > mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. > intent), > desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- > he > ferrets them out one by one. ..." > > Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara > citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of > the > above? > Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? > Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? > Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? > Why? > Question 5. Does this chanda search for "the meditation subject" or > Nibbana? If so, why did the Venerable Sariputta ferret it out? .... 1 rupa-vacara citta when the factors arise. When they are discerned or ‘ferreted out’, it is with kamavacara reviewing consciousness. 2.it says ‘in the first jhana’! As you’ve discussed with Htoo and Nina before, the object of the jhana citta is the nimitta. When the states are known it is with subsequent kamavacara cittas. “...those states were defined by him one by one as they occurred, known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’”(Nanamoli/Bodhi transl) 3.still no:-) 4.still no:-) 5. chanda here searches for the meditation subject (kammatthana). Subsequently, the states were known with kamavacara panna. The N/B transl uses ‘defined’.Chanda would then be arising with this panna, searching out the jhana factors just arisen. Remember, no ‘Ven Sariputta’ or ‘Howard’:-). ***** S: These are the kinds of qus that both Htoo and Nina love. Thanks for keeping me on my toes in the meantime. You’re most welcome to question/disagree with any of them or ask the others on return as well. Metta, Sarah ========= 46219 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Sarah (and all other interested members -- please join us) – ... S: Firstly, thanks for kindly encouraging others to join in any of our discussions. .... > > This is my reply to your message #46097. It seems to me that we are > now debating whether the detailed knowledge at the Paramattha- > dhamma level -- through Ajahn Sujin's lectures - is absolutely > necessary for a practical-minded Buddhist. ... S: Can I re-phrase this and suggest that what we are ‘politely discussing:-)’ now is whether the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas in order to realize the 4 Noble Truths. .... > Tep: Knowing the five external ayatanas down to the Paramattha- > dhamma details is not the idea in MN 137 and MN 148. The Buddha > never asked those kinds of questions you have asked. you the following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really > seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? 3. When you touch the > computer, what is experienced? ... ...> > > What is the use of asking those questions anyway? Can they lead me > to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana? I believe the two suttas, MN 137 and > MN 147, can. .... S: I asked them because of your suggestion in an earlier post that we really see and touch computers and so on. Indeed I believe that without directly understanding that what is seen is visible object, what is heard is just sound and so on, there is no way to ‘yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana’ because we will continue to be lost in the world of concepts and illusions. I still have DN22 open from my last post to you in which (still under the 4NT) it talks about how the craving comes to be abandoned: “Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there its cessation comes about. And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? “The eye.......the ear.... “Eye-consciousness....ear-consciousness.... “Sights, sounds..... “Eye-contact, ear-contact.....the perception of sights, sounds........volition in regard to sights, sounds........craving for sights, sounds.......thnking of sights, sounds........pondering on sights, sounds.................agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving comes to an end, there its cessation comes about. And that, monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering.” .... S: In other words, the khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas are what arise and fall and concerning which craving arises and which right understanding and the other path factors have to directly know. The Path is the direct knowing and penetration of sankhara dhammas so that the unconditioned dhamma will eventually be known. Computers and people are not sankhara dhammas. ..... > What the Buddha Taught in MN 137 > ============================== > > -- 'The six internal medium(ajjhattika ayatana) should be known'. They > are : The eye-medium(cakkhaayatana), the ear-medium, the nose- > medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium > (manayatana). No detailed information down to the Paramattha level > was ever mentioned by the Buddha. .... S: These are all paramattha dhammas and the same applies to the external ayatana next: .... > -- 'The six external sense-media (baahira ayatana) should be known'. > They are: The form-medium(ruupaayatana), the sound-medium, the > aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the > idea-medium(dhammaayatana). No details down to the Paramattha > level were ever mentioned in this sutta. ... S: Please see ‘Ayatanas’ in U.P. if you have time. These are all paramattha dhammas. Dhammaayatana refers to subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana. Manayatana refers to cittas. All the other dhammas mentioned in your quote are also paramattha dhammas or realities to be directly known and understood. You mention there are no details of ’89 cittas’, but as Howard and Azita have just suggested to Phil’s qu about ‘motion’. In the end, the answers are not ‘in the book’. You say we don’t need to know about 89 cittas or other abhidhamma detail to understand this sutta, but I think it helps a lot when we read ‘intellect-cosnciousness’ or ‘intellect-medium’ to have an idea that these terms in translation refer to other cittas not specified apart from Eye-consciousness and so on. Otherwise, again, we may read the sutta as suggesting there should be awareness of ideas or computers rather than of namas and rupas. .... <...> >You may wish to read the rest of > MN 137 yourself. I don't think you may find such excellent teaching > anywhere else! ... S: yes, it is excellent. Later it continues to refer to the ‘knowing the impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms....sounds.....etc. one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms (i.e visible objects) both formerly and now are all impermanent, suffering, and subject to change.....etc’. It’s all about paramattha dhammas, as I read it, Tep! ***** > > What the Buddha Taught in MN 148 > ============================= <...> > I don't think those questions you have asked me following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? > 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? <...> > Just read the part on "eye & forms", for example, that deals with the > whole dependent arisings of all the dhammas emanating from the eye > and form all the way to vedana, and shows how the "bhikkhu" should > contemplate (or discern) to abandon passion-obsession and > resistance-obsession, and finally to uproot ignorance obsession. > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. > The meeting of the three is contact. .... S: while there’s the idea that we see a computer and hear people, I don’t believe we can truly appreciate even this first line which is about the understanding of conditioned (paramattha) dhammas. We think we see or that we see a person or computer, but at this moment there is just the seeing consciousness conditioned by visible object and eye-base which arises. It sees visible object or ‘form’ with the assistance of phassa and other cetasikas. Mere conditioned dhammas, impermanent, unsatisfactory and worthless. But it is on account of these dhammas that feelings, attachments, cravings, obsessions, wrong views, wrong actions and so on arise and so samsara keeps rolling until ignorance of dhammas is eradicated completely. ..... <...> > Again, my opinion is that we don't need to apply the Paramattha- > dhamma in order to understand and be able to follow the teaching of > this sutta. .... S: Nothing needs to be applied, but the dhammas arising and falling now can be directly known when they are experienced and when sati, panna, viriya, chanda and so on arise, conditioned by careful consideration and reflection of what we’ve read and heard. Thank you again for the excellent quotes and all your deep reflections, Tep. I’ll look forward to hearing your further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you also saw my reply to you on postures (iriyapatha). =========== 46220 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 1:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Somewhere I believe there is a sutta which equivalences knowing dependent > origination with knowing the Buddha and the Dhamma, but I cannot locate it. > But a few suttas that I can locate that I think include indications that direct > knowing of conditionality leads to liberation are the following three suttas > from the Samyutta Nikaya: XII.65, XII.20, and XII.23 (in order of relevance), > all available on ATI. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, Herman, Ken, all, Perhaps this may be it? "Whoever sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." [M.I.191] http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise1.htm This is unclear in Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation due to the compressing of verses 172-194 into 8 lines, no doubt to reduce the repetitions.(pp89-90) metta, Chris 46221 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:05am Subject: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi all, Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any feedback. Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? Kind Regards Herman 46222 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Herman, Chris & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: >Herman: The Udana 1:1-3 > portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to > dependent origination later. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think > that > may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the > purpose > of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. > ----------------------------------------- ... S: Yes, I think of it as like a reviewing on an incomparable scale. I assume you’re referring to the following Udana 1:3 (Masefield transl): “...And on that occasion, the Lord had been seated for seven days in a single cross-legged position experiencing the bliss of liberation. “The the Lord, with the passing of those seven days, having emerged from that concentration, throughout the last watch of the night unerringly paid attention to dependent co-arising in direct order and reverse order.....” S: In ‘The Path of Discrimination’ there is a whole section on the Buddha’s omniscient wisdom (Treatise on Knowledge, ch LXX11-Omniscient and Unobstructed Knowledge): ”It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge...” It goes on to enumerate how anything in the past, future, or presently-arisen is known. In other words, whatever he puts his mind to is known by this omniscience, including all knowledges attained and so on." ***** From the commentary to the Udana above: “So these three Udanas (I:1, 1:2, 1:3) were proclaimed by the Lord during the three watches making manifest the majesty, firstly, of his discerning of the (twelve-membered) mode of conditions, secondly, of his attaining the destruction of those conditions and, thirdly, of the ariyan path. On which night? “On the seventh night following his enlightenment. For, on the night of the full moon in (the month) of Visaakhaa, the Lord, having in the first watch, recollected his former dwelling, in the middle watch cleansed his heavenly eye, (and) in the last watch inclined his knowledge to dependent co-arising, (and) having (finally) comprehended the formations belonging to the triple world in diverse ways, reached perfect, self-enlightenment, thinking “Now dawn will come up”. And immediately following his reaching of omniscience, the dawn came up. “Spending thereafter seven days in that same cross-legged position at the root of the Bodhi Tree, he paid attention, on the seventh night, to dependent co-arising during the three watches in the manner stated, and then gave rise, respectively, to these Udanas.” ***** S: So, as suggested by Howard, it was a question of what ‘he paid attention’ to. Here are a couple of earlier quotes from the same commentary to 1:1 which I like and which may be relevant to the points Chris and others were discussing too: ..... “ ‘That being, this comes to be (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti)’: that condition, such as ignorance and so on, being, this fruition, such as the formations and so forth, comes to be; ‘through the arising of that, this arises (imass’ uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati)’ through the arising of that condition of ignorance and so on, this fruition, such as the formations and so forth, arises – this is the meaning. By way of the statement in the second and third suttas, viz “That not being, this comes not to be; through the cessation of that, this ceases”, (signifying) the absence of the formations and so on when there is an absence of ignorance and so forth......” ***** S: And the second one on the ‘fool’: “For dependent co-arising is the occurrence of the khandhas together with (such) fetters, which (fetters) are latent (within those khandhas) on account of their not having been completely rooted out. And similarly there is said: “That ignorance, hindered by which, monks, this body comes to pass for the fool, and that craving to which he is conjoined – that same ignorance is not abandoned for that fool, nor that craving completely destroyed. "What is the reason for this? That fool, monks, did not lead the Brahmacariya for the sake of the proper destruction of dukkha (belonging to the cycle). Therefore, that fool, following the breaking up of the body, is one going on to (another) body; he, being one going on to (another) body, is not completely freed from birth, old age and dying” (Sii24) and so on; whereas annihilation of the cycle will become made known to those in whom the fetters have been destroyed, since due to the absence of ignorance, there will be no (further) generation of the formations, due to the absence of craving, (no further generation of ) grasping, due to the absence of grasping, (no further generation of) becoming. “For this same reason, he said “Through the cessation, without remainder, via fading away, of these same six bases of contact, Phagguna, is there cessation of contact, through the cessation of contact, cessation of sensation”(Sii14) and so forth. For it is not (a question of) the non-occurrence of the six bases and so on onwards from attainment of the topmost path up until parinibbaana; rather ‘cessation’ is mentioned since it is a state in which (something) does not exist, the state in which the fetters have been destroyed, that is to be expressed by the word ‘cessation’.” ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Also good to see TG’s, Joop’s, Frank’s and Eznir’s various comments. ======================================================== 46223 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 30, 2005 10:32pm Subject: Latent Tendencies ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Latent Tendencies (anusaya): 1: The Latent Tendency to Sense-Desire. 2: The Latent Tendency to Aversion & Anger. 3: The Latent Tendency to Sceptical Doubt. 4: The Latent Tendency to Speculative Views. 5: The Latent Tendency to the Conceit 'I am'. 6: The Latent Tendency to Craving for Becoming. 7: The Latent Tendency to plain Blind Ignorance. These are inherently deeply imbedded, hidden in the corners of the mind, where these subtle mentalities ever again exert their detrimental influence over our thoughts, speech & behaviour. Tainted by these impure inclinations, any intention & action will remain having disadvantageous & painful future after-effects... The only tool capable of overcoming & extracting them is the quite Noble Eightfold Way: The Ariya Magga: 1. Right View (samma-ditthi) 2. Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) 3. Right Speech (samma-vaca) 4. Right Action (samma-kammanta) 5. Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) 6. Right Effort (samma-vayama) 7. Right Awareness (samma-sati) 8. Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) The Noble Eightfold Path Explained, Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 245/247). The Noble Eightfold Path, by Bhikkhu Bodhi (WHEEL 308/311). The Buddha's Ancient Path, by Piyadassi Thera (BPS). Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46224 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Howard & all, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > "Whoever sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees > the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." [M.I.191] .... S: MN28.28 (Pali i 191)p283 Nanamoli/Bodhi transl: "Now this has been said by the Blessed One: 'One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.' And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding, based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering..." Metta, Sarah ======== 46225 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study ... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/31/05 1:41:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: > Herman, in a way, i.e. in a manner of speaking, beings exist, and in a > way, in a more ultimate sense, they do not. We can meaningfully speak of > rainbows, can't we? Ever try to get hold of one? > ==== I'm not trying to be smart here, but it just isn't part of the definition of rainbow that it is a tangible object. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course. and "people" can be touched - that is, touch sensations are associated with what we call touching a person. My point was a metaphorical one - analogical. It *seems* that a rainbow is a thing. It is *physically* ungraspable, and it is unfixable even visually. The ungraspability of persons is more subtle, but is a fact as well. BTW, the literal unreality of conventional objects, including persons, is not unique to a "Khun Sujin variety" of Theravada. It is extant throughout Theravada, and Mahayana and Vajrayana as well. See, in Theravada, for example, Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta entitled The Magic of the Mind and also parts of the Sutta Nipata such as the paragraph _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, knowing with regard to the world that "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far -- as a snake, its decrepit old skin. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras of Mahayana, the Diamond-Cutter Sutra, for example, the nonexistence of conventional persons and things is at the forefront, and the Gelugpa "centrist" school of Tibetan Buddhism, and the Yogacara school, in differing ways, present conventional reality as a literal unreality. This ultimate unreality (i.e., merely conventional/concensual reality) of persons and things permeates all schools of Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------------- With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in beings. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and things! ---------------------------------------- Even thoughts and consciousness are social products, such experiences are negations of not being. IMHO :) Kind Regards Herman ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46226 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >Now you already admit that 'Yes, we learn through trial and error. > >That is a fact of life.' So why to bother practising? > > > > > > Yes, the conventional notion of 'practice' is of something that > necessarily involves error. However, I think that in the teachings it > means the actual development of insight (and in this respect it is > similar to effort, determination and the like). > > This brings me back to the question of formal sitting meditation. I > would still like to know exactly what this means, in terms of samatha > bhavana and vipassana bhavana, and why you see it as being more > important than other forms of samatha and vipassana bhavana. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. Actually I do not have any distinction between 'formal practice' and 'actual practice' and 'real practice'. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I will be off for a few months. 46227 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo You may have seen the recent Visuddhimagga passage posted by Larry, describing the mental factors of lobha ('greed'), <>, and moha ('delusion'), <>. That is to say, when the mental factor of lobha/moha is present, the person is said to be greedy/deluded. In the same manner, when we read passages like: 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives', what is being referred to is the underlying mental atate. The (kusala) mental factor of energy (viriya) is present, so the person is said to strive. As I understand it, the Buddha did not use striving to mean the akusala moments that precede kusala, but only to refer to the striving that accompanies kusala (in this regard, 'striving' is similar to 'practice'). So I would say that 'he applies his will ... he scrutinises ... he strives' refers to different stages or forms of kusala connected with the development of insight. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your response. Kusala arises when there are conditions. Kusala are kusala cittas and their associated cetasikas and they arise with cittaja ruupa. When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala. Someone who is 'doing' something that is not daana or siila or bhaavana then his 'doing' is not kusala. You and DSGs may like this statement; 'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparaamaasa. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I will be off for a few months. 46228 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:23am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo I think you have in mind here the passage 'Meditate, Ananada/Cunda, meditate'. Could you tell us something about the Pali term here that is translated as 'meditate', and what it means? Thanks. Jon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Jon, Apology for lack of time to response. I just check what messages are there to response. I do not know 'who wrote that'. When I saw 'Meditate Ananda, meditate, meditate' I felt strange. That is why I frequently say that using 'pure English' is not as accurate as using Pali in Dhamma setting. With respect, Htoo PS: I will be off for a few months. 46229 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any feedback. > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > > > Kind Regards > > Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, Nice to hear from you. I will be answering your questions when I am back. I will be off for a few months. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46230 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Interesting comments, Phil! You say you KNOW that having expectations about when and how sati will arise is wrong, but that you FEEL that having a conceptual understanding first is helpful. How can grasping at a concept and trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right Understanding? Doesn't building up conceptual edifices like that do precisely what you KNOW to be wrong, viz., give you expectations about how sati will arise? A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for conceptualization. Dan > Hi Azita and all > > > I was just listening to the Lumbhini talk in which you asked Kh > Sujin about the characteristic of motion, and again I become > irritated for some reason by the non-forthcoming of any conceptual > descriptions. Again I thought that the similes used in Vism to help > us understand cetasikas are helpful so why are we told to experience > the characteristics directly (somehow!) without conceptual > understanding first? > > You posted a follow-up to my previous post about this but I can't > find it. Can I ask you again how you came to be satisfied by the > response you got on this point. (A cut and paste from the previous > post would be fine, of course.) Sorry for the bother, but it's > obviously something that keeps coming up for me. > > I know that having expectations about when and how sati will arise > is wrong, but I definitely feel conceptual descriptions given to us > by people with superior insight can help to condition a deeper > understanding on our own part. For some reason when I listen to this > talk I get irritated. I know it is impatience on my part, and yet... > > Metta, > Phil 46231 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] onco111 Dear Htoo, Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are referring to. You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." Dan P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. > When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one > develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala. > > Someone who is 'doing' something that is not daana or siila or > bhaavana then his 'doing' is not kusala. > > You and DSGs may like this statement; > > 'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparaamaasa. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: I will be off for a few months. 46232 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/31/05 11:31:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Dear Htoo, Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are referring to. You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." ------------------------------------ Howard: Well said, Dan! (That is ... I agree! ;-) ---------------------------------- Dan P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. All the best, Htoo! ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46233 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi all, Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? The five aggregates of a human is real? What is real is unimportant? I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? Charles 46234 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Just some open questions. I would be interested in all and any > feedback. > > > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Herman, > > Nice to hear from you. I will be answering your questions when I am > back. I will be off for a few months. > It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). All the best Herman 46235 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 3:58pm Subject: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Howard, > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > beings. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and > things! ====== May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused enough to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly do understand our collective predicament. I believe in you, Howard. Kind Regards Herman 46236 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline egberdina Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for putting your reply together. Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where possible, and conventional standards when impossible. I spend a bit of time each day doing a Sudoku puzzle. It is a numerical puzzle that works on similar principles as dependent origination. Using the logic of: 1]Because of this, that 2]Because of not this, not that 3]Because of this, not that 4]Because of not this, that one can fill in missing numbers till the puzzle is complete. And when one gets it wrong, you soon find out because you cannot proceed if you limit yourself to the rules. My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" for short. As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. And as Phil was candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, Herman, Chris & all, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Herman: The Udana 1:1-3 > > portrays the time line as being enlightenment first, attention to > > dependent origination later. > > --------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, I had noted that and thus didn't use these as examples. I think > > that > > may have involved further investigation on the Buddha's part for the > > purpose > > of obtaining detailed knowledge useful for teaching others. > > ----------------------------------------- > ... > S: Yes, I think of it as like a reviewing on an incomparable scale. I > assume you're referring to the following > > Udana 1:3 (Masefield transl): > > "...And on that occasion, the Lord had been seated for seven days in a > single cross-legged position experiencing the bliss of liberation. > > "The the Lord, with the passing of those seven days, having emerged from > that concentration, throughout the last watch of the night unerringly paid > attention to dependent co-arising in direct order and reverse order....." > S: In `The Path of Discrimination' there is a whole section on the > Buddha's omniscient wisdom (Treatise on Knowledge, ch LXX11-Omniscient and > Unobstructed Knowledge): > > "It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is > omniscient knowledge..." It goes on to enumerate how anything in the past, > future, or presently-arisen is known. In other words, whatever he puts his > mind to is known by this omniscience, including all knowledges attained > and so on." > ***** > > From the commentary to the Udana above: > > "So these three Udanas (I:1, 1:2, 1:3) were proclaimed by the Lord during > the three watches making manifest the majesty, firstly, of his discerning > of the (twelve-membered) mode of conditions, secondly, of his attaining > the destruction of those conditions and, thirdly, of the ariyan path. On > which night? > > "On the seventh night following his enlightenment. For, on the night of > the full moon in (the month) of Visaakhaa, the Lord, having in the first > watch, recollected his former dwelling, in the middle watch cleansed his > heavenly eye, (and) in the last watch inclined his knowledge to dependent > co-arising, (and) having (finally) comprehended the formations belonging > to the triple world in diverse ways, reached perfect, self-enlightenment, > thinking "Now dawn will come up". And immediately following his reaching > of omniscience, the dawn came up. > > "Spending thereafter seven days in that same cross-legged position at the > root of the Bodhi Tree, he paid attention, on the seventh night, to > dependent co-arising during the three watches in the manner stated, and > then gave rise, respectively, to these Udanas." > ***** > S: So, as suggested by Howard, it was a question of what `he paid > attention' to. Here are a couple of earlier quotes from the same > commentary to 1:1 which I like and which may be relevant to the points > Chris and others were discussing too: > ..... > " `That being, this comes to be (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti)': that > condition, such as ignorance and so on, being, this fruition, such as the > formations and so forth, comes to be; `through the arising of that, this > arises (imass' uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati)' through the arising of that > condition of ignorance and so on, this fruition, such as the formations > and so forth, arises – this is the meaning. By way of the statement in the > second and third suttas, viz "That not being, this comes not to be; > through the cessation of that, this ceases", (signifying) the absence of > the formations and so on when there is an absence of ignorance and so > forth......" > ***** > S: And the second one on the `fool': > > "For dependent co-arising is the occurrence of the khandhas together with > (such) fetters, which (fetters) are latent (within those khandhas) on > account of their not having been completely rooted out. And similarly > there is said: "That ignorance, hindered by which, monks, this body comes > to pass for the fool, and that craving to which he is conjoined – that > same ignorance is not abandoned for that fool, nor that craving completely > destroyed. > > "What is the reason for this? That fool, monks, did not lead the > Brahmacariya for the sake of the proper destruction of dukkha (belonging > to the cycle). Therefore, that fool, following the breaking up of the > body, is one going on to (another) body; he, being one going on to > (another) body, is not completely freed from birth, old age and dying" > (Sii24) and so on; whereas annihilation of the cycle will become made > known to those in whom the fetters have been destroyed, since due to the > absence of ignorance, there will be no (further) generation of the > formations, due to the absence of craving, (no further generation of ) > grasping, due to the absence of grasping, (no further generation of) > becoming. > > "For this same reason, he said "Through the cessation, without remainder, > via fading away, of these same six bases of contact, Phagguna, is there > cessation of contact, through the cessation of contact, cessation of > sensation"(Sii14) and so forth. For it is not (a question of) the > non-occurrence of the six bases and so on onwards from attainment of the > topmost path up until parinibbaana; rather `cessation' is mentioned since > it is a state in which (something) does not exist, the state in which the > fetters have been destroyed, that is to be expressed by the word > `cessation'." > ***** > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Also good to see TG's, Joop's, Frank's and Eznir's various comments. > ======================================================== 46237 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 6:45:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes to Htoo: It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). ============================ From FOR ALL WE KNOW, lyric by Rubin Studdard: ______________________ For all we know We may never meet again Before you go Make this moment sweet again & For all we know This may only be a dream We come and we go Like the ripple on a stream ------------------------------------------ and more beautiful, From TIME, by the Alan Parsons Project: _______________________ Goodbye my friends, Maybe forever Goodbye my friends, The stars wait for me Who knows where we shall meet again If ever But time Keeps flowing like a river (on and on) To the sea, to the sea -------------------------------------- With metta and thoughts of timelessness, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46238 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: †˜Cetasik... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/31/05 7:04:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > beings. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, lunatic that > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving people, and at > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of persons and > things! ====== May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? --------------------------------------- Howard: Please - it would be my pleasure! (I used to have another cyber-Buddhist-friend who loved to address me as "Howeird"!) --------------------------------------- It would be in the form of "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. -------------------------------------- Howard: I'm touched to read this. It is mutual, I assure you. ------------------------------------- Your symptoms as you describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither here nor there, of course. ------------------------------------ Howard: :-) ------------------------------------ And as long as you remain confused enough to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly do understand our collective predicament. I believe in you, Howard. ---------------------------------- Howard: Again, Herman, this touches me! --------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46239 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi again, Herman (and Tep) - In a message dated 5/31/05 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 6:45:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes to Htoo: It is good to hear from you too. I wish you well during your absence. Who knows who will be absent on your return :-). ======================= Sneaky of me to change your identity, Herman, eh? (My apologies to you both. I had just finished reading a post by Tep on another list!) With metta, Howard, or somebody or other! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46240 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhistmedi... Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief in > > beings. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, > lunatic that > > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving > people, and at > > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of > persons and > > things! > ====== > May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of > "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you > describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither > here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused enough > to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly > do understand our collective predicament. > > I believe in you, Howard. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 46241 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 5:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Does stuff happen? buddhistmedi... Dear Howard (and Herman and Htoo) - It was alright to mix up names once in a while -- I have done the same too. Thank you for your thought, Howard, and thanks to Herman for the two nice poems. Indeed, I have no idea whether or not I'll be around tomorrow. With metta and karuna, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Herman (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 5/31/05 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > Hi, Tep - > >> Sneaky of me to change your identity, Herman, eh? (My apologies to you > both. I had just finished reading a post by Tep on another list!) > > With metta, > Howard, or somebody or other! > > 46242 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 6:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study Evan_Stamato... Tep, Your first paragraph has resulted in some interesting thoughts about this. All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? In fact if we can make an assumption that this process tends to infinity (there is not reason that it doesn't but then there is no evidence that it does), then the logically mathematical conclusion is that as this process of breaking down microscopic particles into smaller particles and emtpty space tends to infinity, all matter tends to empty space: ie, all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. Metta, Evan Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. Respectfully, Tep 46243 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 31, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/31/05 8:43:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the Dhamma. ======================== As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and more or less complete. I believe that an arahant knows but one truth, THE truth, s/he knows that truth perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite different from what any of us knows. I believe that it transcends and incorporates everything that we in any way have a right to call "truth". For all but arahants, however, conventional truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations available to us beings of limited wisdom. Those worldlings, Tep, who "prefer paramattha truths over the conventional ones in ALL [emphasis mine] situations" are fooling themselves, for, being worldlings, it is NOT POSSIBLE, for them to depend solely on paramattha sacca. Worldlings, even lesser ariyans, are incapable of that! As for arahants, concepts are necessary for them also, but for the sole purpose of communication and not for understanding - for they have pa~n~naparamita (my presumed Pali for "perfection of wisdom"). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46244 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. The different schools of Buddhism have different thoughts on this matter, but the arahant doesn't belong to any `school' of Buddhism. He/she knows-- we just want to know. However, philosophizing about it and speaking as if one is already an arahant, and knows what they know, is not the way to know. The only way to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 46245 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 31, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Azita, Howard, Larry, Dan... > Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the > post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question and > the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion > then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even more, > but that's not my intention. Ph: Not irritated now, but the irritation when it arises helps to reflect on things. Very helpful. These days it's my eyes that are irritated (still ahven't gotten around to getting glasses) so I'm taking a break from the computer. I will be back on Saturday. Thanks for the feedback, all. Metta, Phil . 46246 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 0:25am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 209 - Zeal/chanda (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Kusala chanda is a necessary factor for the development of the eightfold Path. If there is no wish-to-do one does not develop it. However, we do not have to try to have chanda, it arises because of its own conditions together with the citta which develops the eightfold Path. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, XLV, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Chapter IV, II, Restraint of Passion, §3) that chanda is one of the factors which are “forerunners” of the arising of the ariyan eightfold Path: * "Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the sun, so possession of desire (chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the ariyan eightfold way. Of a monk who is possessed of desire, monks, it may be expected that he will cultivate the ariyan eightfold way, that he will make much of the ariyan eightfold way…" * When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas. There are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and “investigation” or “reflection” (vímaÿså, which is paññå cetasika)(1). When these factors have been developed they become the four “Roads to Success” (iddhipådas) leading to the attainment of the “supernormal powers” (abhiññås). There are five “supernormal powers” which are developed through jhåna (Vis. Chapter XII). The sixth power, which is the extinction of all defilements, is developed through vipassanå. Chanda or one of the three other “Roads to Success” can be predominant in the development of vipassanå (2). *** 1) See Dhammasangaùi §269, and Atthasåliní I, Part VII, 212,213. Citta can be a predominant factor, but not all cittas; only the cittas which are accompanied by at least two hetus and perform the function of javana can be predominant. For example, lobha-múla-citta and kusala citta can be predominant, since they are rooted in more than one hetu, but moha-múla-citta cannot, since it is rooted only in moha. In the field of kusala, when chanda, viriya or vimaÿsa are not predominant, there can be firmness of kusala citta which is predominant. 2) The four “Roads to Success” are among the thirty seven factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, Visuddhimagga XXII, 33. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46247 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:31am Subject: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop and Phil: > (...(snip) ... > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. It is > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings do > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading of the > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only because > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and anatta). Hallo Tep (and others), Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" I mentioned the first three because I think this three are the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? Because I think a human being (also a Theravadin) is a social being, I have been studying which of the dhammas can be called social, that is in any way directed to other humans: Of 'Rupas' the Vinatti, bodily and vocal intimation, necessary for the communication with other persons. Of 'Cetasikas' the three brahma-vihaara; more or less also issa (jealousy), hiri (moral shame) and possibly some others are 'social' in the way that other persons (real or in the mind) play a role in the arising of them. Of 'Cittas' the social one is forgotten, I define it as "the intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another person". Metta Joop 46248 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:51am Subject: Audio- India 2001, Phil's qu, Kom's news, taking it easy... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've uploaded (or is it downloaded??)the re-edited recordings from India, October 2001, discussions with A.Sujin. They can be found on dhammastudygroup.org. I believe they contain many gems. Listening -- for me, the quality is very clear if I listen to them on the computer with ear-plugs only and when downloaded onto my i-pod. If anyone comes across any glitches, pls let us know. If anyone has trouble listening or down-loading and would like us to burn and mail an mp3, pls send me (off-list) your name and add in a way I can just cut and paste for mailing (even if you've sent it many times before!). If you didn't receive the India 04 recordings and would like a 'burnt' copy of this at the same time, pls indicate and expect delays for any mailing as we're pretty busy these days, esp Jon. I hope many of you listen and post any extracts you find helpful or disagree with. I was spot-testing just now and heard these comments which I think are relevant to Phil's discussion about Azita's question and the good comments Howard and Dan added too: ***** Qu about studying, even though there is clinging to results, so that panna can arise later... K.Sujin: "No expectation, because the function of panna is to detach, the only thing is to detach. It's so hard to detach because everyone has lots of accumulation of attachment. So who can help one to become detached? Only panna can. So when there is attachment to whatever it is -- wanting to know more about the Tipitaka or wanting to be good or any kind of wanting, it's lobha, because lobha can have anything as its object. Only lokuttara dhammas cannot be the object of lobha. Whenever there's lobha, there's no panna and whenever there's panna, there's no lobha. Anytime. It's hard to see lobha." ***** [30mins later- On the recording, the names of other participants are given at the beginning, in order of 'appearance'. One of the main participants is Kom, our really great co-moderator until a few months ago. As I was writing this, he just called me from Thailand, having moved there recently from the States. I know many old members will be glad to hear news of him. He will be ordaining in July for a few months at least and will be living at a temple in Chengrai.] Metta, Sarah Another quote from this recording: K.Sujin: "When one does not expect anything, for example, any result or panna, great panna, one lives happily with the development of understanding and very naturally because one can see one's own accumulations and one knows one cannot have things one hasn't accumulated yet." Qu about not liking one's accumulations -- K.Sujin: "Instead of knowing, it's deep-rooted lobha which shows up. Self doesn't like it again. When there's more understanding, one takes it easy - it doesn't matter because it's arisen by conditions, completely arisen by conditions. We have the latent tendency for lobha, dosa and other akusala, but if the akusala moment doesn't arise, how can one know one has it? So it's good to know the truth of one's accumulations and this is the way to develop panna, because panna can know reality." ========================================== 46249 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:17am Subject: HTOO (was: Does stuff happen?) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: >I will be answering your questions when I am > back. I will be off for a few months. ... S: Thanks for letting us know. A few months sounds like a long time and I'll greatly look forward to your return. I think you've been making a really great contribution to DSG these last few months and it will seem strange without you around. If you have a chance to pop in from time to time, (any internet cafes on the mountain top??), of course we'd be glad. A few last rushed comments to get up to date: 'root of the tree' - I came across something in a commentary which said the meaning of 'root' in this context means 'vicinity'. primary and secondary - Maybe more later. you would say water (cohesion) is secondary just because it is only experienced through the mind-door. Maybe language use. #45700 breath - "at this stage the object is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory sign and it is just the object that can be sensed by everyone when he or she is breathing through the nose." This is not as I understand - only the breath conditioned by citta for a start...more to discuss later. #45913 queery over yr example of upanissaya paccaya with regard to tadarammanas (vipaka cittas) following 7th javana citta. Tadarammanas are result of kamma condition, but of course all kamma needs pakatu upanissaya paccaya to support and bring its result....More to discuss on this. Also in #45910 and another post where you give the examples of the javana cittas conditioning the next ones by upanissaya paccaya. In this case, I'd think the main condition is asevana paccaya, but I'm sure you're right that upanissiya paccaya is there too. (no time to check details now, just trying to respond before you go off-line). Apr7th ?# You refer to how 'true jhana may not be 'right concentration' or 'samma-samadhi' when there is no 'right view' or 'samma-dithi'. As I understand, there must be right concentration and right understanding, but there are different kinds of these, so what I think you mean is not right concentration and right understanding of the the Noble Eightfold Path. For any moments of samatha development, there must be right concentration and understanding of the level of samatha, however. Metta and friendship, Sarah p.s If you have time, pls listen to the recordings I just referred to and give us your comments when you return or pop in:-). Thank you again for all your help and for all your posts, Htoo. I've learnt a lot from your threads and our discussions which I always appreciate. ======== 46250 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Interesting comments, Phil! > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > conceptualization. ... :-) Oh, that way you have with words....even though she says it so sweetly and politely, not many people can take this lack of gratification either.... "it's a long, long story...." , "...another situation?" Always good when you pop by, Dan.....hope you hang around long enough for Nina to see you. I think you'll like all the edited recordings I just referred to. More will be uploaded in due course, so keep an eye on the site in case you miss my announcements here. On the Thai side, all the recordings which leave the foundation have been edited and so I'm now working on this big project on the English side with Jon's help and K.Sujin's advice. It's slow. As you can imagine, I'm kept busy with all these projects and am completely giving up my teaching/psychology business and consultancy work this coming Saturday after 20 years of doing it here:-):-). Metta, Sarah ====== 46251 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:42am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), Thank you very much for your comments. I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. An ultimate truth, to my understanding, is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship between different things. The mind (I am not suggesting it exists independently) is capable of relating things together. It can relate things to an infinite level, by which process any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing at all. This may also be indicated as a state of no-mind. This is the level of reality, and truth just does not apply, there are no relationships. What are we to say about it? The less, the better :-) All truths are conventional by their very nature. The first jhana is not the same as the second jhana is not the same as the third jhana and so on. What is real in the first jhana is real in the first jhana, but it doesn't apply when I am talking to my mother on the phone. What is real when I am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. And when there is nothing, there is neither nothing nor not nothing..... Kind Regards Herman PS When you tell me you are confused, then I will agree with you. And when you tell me you are not confused, likewise :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters > are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, > computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone > say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the > macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and > the matters don't exist? > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - > - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: > samvrti-satya). > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- > sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > Dhamma. > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that > he is confused. Please advise. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ==== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > > > With regards to discussions about beings not existing, or the > > > non-existence of beings; any act of communication implies a belief > in > > > beings. > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > That depends on what one thinks is going on at that time. I, > > lunatic that > > > I am, have no problem in communicating with people and loving > > people, and at > > > the very same time truly not believing in the literal existence of > > persons and > > > things! > > ====== > > May I refer to you in future as a lunatic? It would be in the form of > > "Dear lunatic Howard", for you are dear to me. Your symptoms as you > > describe them certainly fit a diagnosis of lunacy. Which is neither > > here nor there, of course. And as long as you remain confused > enough > > to communicate from time to time, I know that at those times you truly > > do understand our collective predicament. > > > > I believe in you, Howard. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > Herman 46252 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? ... S: I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'concept formation'. Would you kindly explain. On the other thread: --- Egbert wrote: > Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? > There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and > futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where > possible, and conventional standards when impossible. ... S: Hmmm.... I specially gave the quotes on omniscience from the Sutta-Pitaka, the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, and I can give a lot more. You may wish to discuss the authenticity of this collection, but then I'd pass you on to Tep:-). When is any ultimate reality from the past or future known at the present? When the Buddha's omniscient wisdom is applied to it:-). "All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. All that is future, it knows... All that is presently-arisen it knows... Eye and visible objects: all that it knows... Ear and sounds.... Nose and odours.... Tongue and flavours... Body and tangible objects.... Mind and ideas......" .... <...> > My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to > Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive > at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the > phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" > for short. ... S: I think the aim is to eradicate present ignorance by directly understanding the present dhammas appearing. "There is but one moment (kha.no) and occasion (samayo), monks, for living the Brahmacariya" (AN iv 227). ... > > As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest > assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. ... S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict the opportunities for finding the solution? ... >And as Phil was > candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the > puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) ... S: This is very true. We think we don't like attachment, for example, because we've heard it's at the root of our problems and yet we cannot live without it. Most the time we have no interest in solving the puzzle, but better to be realistic and see whatever is conditioned for what it is -- sankhara dhamma, not me. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for also telling us you'll be away for a few days and glad the family are worldly-fine. ======= 46253 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration egberdina Hi Joop, And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Joop and Phil: > > > (...(snip) ... > > > Tep: Thank you a whole lot for kindly responding to my challenge. > It is > > good to acknowledge that you (or I) can never say that other beings > do > > not exist. It is also good to clearly understand that the spreading > of the > > four brahma-vihaara (loving kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, > > equanimity) to all beings is possible (and makes sense) only > because > > those beings exist now (although they are anicca, dukkha and > anatta). > > > Hallo Tep (and others), > > Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. > You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving > kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" > I mentioned the first three because I think this three are > the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while > equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. > But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? > > > Because I think a human being (also a Theravadin) is a social being, > I have been studying which of the dhammas can be called social, that > is in any way directed to other humans: > > Of 'Rupas' the Vinatti, bodily and vocal intimation, necessary for > the communication with other persons. > > Of 'Cetasikas' the three brahma-vihaara; more or less also issa > (jealousy), hiri (moral shame) and possibly some others are 'social' > in the way that other persons (real or in the mind) play a role in > the arising of them. > > Of 'Cittas' the social one is forgotten, I define it as "the > intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another > person". > > Metta > > Joop 46254 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Herman - Thank you both for your thoughtfulness. I also believe that the social aspect of the Dhamma is very important in Buddhism because no Buddhist is an island. But does equanimity as the fourth factor of brahma-vihaara have a social value? Joop: I think this three are the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? Herman : And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Tep: I also agree with Herman that the three Path factors are social. My understanding tells me that upekkha as the 4th brahma-vihaara is the neutral state (with panna) that is in perfect equilibrium with the other three factors. Without upekkha there is no balancing act to condition peace of mind. For example, you can "spread" it to an individual who irritates you: 'This person is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.' Upekkha also can be used to protect against raga (desire, lust) that may be caused by biased metta for an opposite sex. Equanimity is the fouth leg of the brahma-vihaara table that protects against disappointments when the other three factors fail to produce positive results (e.g. even with metta and karuna and mudita spreading out, some people still dislike you). Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a > social context are quite meaningless also. > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > Thanks for your response. But it gives me another question. > > You said "… that the spreading of the four brahma-vihaara (loving > > kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity) to all beings …" > > I mentioned the first three because I think this three are > > the 'social' ones, that is, directed to other beings; while > > equanimity is as a state of mind not directed to anything or anybody. > > But perhaps I'm wrong on that; what do you think? > > > > 46255 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - In a message dated 6/1/05 6:00:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict the opportunities for finding the solution? ===================== The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute *any* other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as 'while we are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly indulging'. Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation in general, I mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that depends. At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, is heartening, and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us away from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from ongoing mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in solitude (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46256 From: connie Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 9:13am Subject: out of social context nichiconn Hi, Herman, Joop, Howard, All, Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371]. peace, connie 46257 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:15am Subject: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi all - On another list, someone made brief mention of the Malunkyaputta Sutta findable at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-095.html I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. As I see it, an important teaching is given with regard to each of these: With regard to the "non-occurring domain", no "being caught" can actually occur "there", because there IS no "there", and with regard to the "occurring domain" it is all impersonal and should be observed only as it is in itself - mere phenomena rolling on, with no underlying core of self or substance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46258 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 6/1/05 12:14:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: Hi, Herman, Joop, Howard, All, Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371]. peace, connie ======================= Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be helpful. IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46259 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and all - Why is the Malunkyaputta sutta valuable? I am not not sure what you meant by the "non-occurring domain" and the "occurring domain". Could you please give clear descriptions for both and what the Buddha advised his disciples to do in each situation? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > On another list, someone made brief mention of the Malunkyaputta Sutta findable at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-095.html I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't > consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. 46260 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study buddhistmedi... Hi, James, Howard, Evan, Herman - Thank you all for your unique and interesting thoughts on truths, arahant's knowledge, reality, no-mind, emptiness and nothingness. It seems to me that we are close in some issues, but I cannot draw a single conclusion from our discussion (and I do not worry at all). Below is a list of the highlights of your thoughts -- try to make a conclusion, if you can! Evan (# 46262): All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? ... ... all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. Howard (# 46243): As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and more or less complete. For all but arahants, however, conventional truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations available to us beings of limited wisdom.... An arahant knows but one truth, THE truth, ... perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite different from what any of us knows. James (#46244): I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. ... The only way to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. Herman (# 46251): I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. -- An ultimate truth.. is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship between different things. -- The mind can relate things to an infinite level, by which process any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing at all. . (state of no-mind) ... truth just does not apply, there are no relationships. -- All truths are conventional by their very nature. ... What is real when I am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), > (snipped) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules and the matters don't exist? > > > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). > > > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they are confused. > > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are indecisive. > > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > > Dhamma. > > > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know that he is confused. Please advise. > > 46261 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/1/05 3:46:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard and all - Why is the Malunkyaputta sutta valuable? I am not not sure what you meant by the "non-occurring domain" and the "occurring domain". Could you please give clear descriptions for both and what the Buddha advised his disciples to do in each situation? Respectfully, Tep ========================== I'll get back to you about this tomorrow, Tep. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46262 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - I have time now, so I won't wait until tomorrow. I'll copy the sutta here and add my comments in context: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 Malunkyaputta Sutta To Malunkyaputta Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Here now, Malunkyaputta: What will I say to the young monks when you — aged, old, elderly, along in years, come to the last stage of life — ask for an admonition in brief?" "Lord, even though I'm aged, old, elderly, along in years, come to the last stage of life, may the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I'll understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I'll become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord."1 "The sounds cognizable via the ear... "The aromas cognizable via the nose... "The flavors cognizable via the tongue... "The tactile sensations cognizable via the body... "The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord." -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing pertains to dhammas "cognizable via a sense door that are unobserved by one — that one has never before observed, that one doesn't observe, and that are not to be observed by one, and for these there is no desire or passion or love there". As the note points out, there may well be desire with respect to the *idea* of such unobserved phenomena, but the desire does not lie THERE, with their actual experience, since they are *not* experienced (and may well not have occurred at all, but just be *able* to be cognized *were* conditions for their arising or observation in place. It is the realm of such non-occurring or at least unobserved phenomena that I referred to as the non-occurring realm. The point made with respect to the imagined objects of that realm is that no desire can actually be involved with them. And desire for the merely imagined or conjectured, when fully realized as such, starts to become ludicrous. Having dispensed with what is not observed, the Buddha then goes on to discuss phenomena that actually do arise and are observed, and with respect to these the teaching is an admonition to avoid reification of the subject and of the object. In the seen there shall just be the seen - there being nothing substantial and knowable that underlies the phenomenal object, and no self to be found underlying the knowing. --------------------------------------------------- "Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."2 ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This is the same teaching as in the Bahiya Sutta, and Bhikkhu ~Nanananda makes much of it in his commentary on the Kalakamara Sutta. In the rest of the sutta, Malunkyaputta that shows through his words that he understood the Buddha's teaching, and states, with the Buddha's approval, that maintaining mindfulness is the means of avoiding getting hooked by contacts via any of the sense doors. -------------------------------------------- "I understand in detail, lord, the meaning of what the Blessed One has said in brief: Seeing a form — mindfulness lapsed — attending to the theme of 'endearing,' impassioned in mind, one feels and remains fastened there. One's feelings, born of the form, grow numerous, Greed & annoyance injure one's mind. Thus amassing stress, one is said to be far from Unbinding. Hearing a sound... Smelling an aroma... Tasting a flavor... Touching a tactile sensation... Knowing an idea — mindfulness lapsed — attending to the theme of 'endearing,' impassioned in mind, one feels and remains fastened there. One's feelings, born of the idea, grow numerous, Greed & annoyance injure one's mind. Thus amassing stress, one is said to be far from Unbinding. Not impassioned with forms — seeing a form with mindfulness firm — dispassioned in mind, one knows and doesn't remain fastened there. While one is seeing a form — and even experiencing feeling — it falls away and doesn't accumulate. Thus one fares mindfully. Thus not amassing stress, one is said to be in the presence of Unbinding. Not impassioned with sounds... Not impassioned with aromas... Not impassioned with flavors... Not impassioned with tactile sensations... Not impassioned with ideas — knowing an idea with mindfulness firm — dispassioned in mind, one knows and doesn't remain fastened there. While one is knowing an idea — and even experiencing feeling — it falls away and doesn't accumulate. Thus one fares mindfully. Thus not amassing stress, one is said to be in the presence of Unbinding. "It's in this way, lord, that I understand in detail the meaning of what the Blessed One said in brief." "Good, Malunkyaputta. Very good. It's good that you understand in detail this way the meaning of what I said in brief." [The Buddha then repeats the verses.] "It's in this way, Malunkyaputta, that the meaning of what I said in brief should be regarded in detail." Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, having been admonished by the admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Malunkyaputta became another one of the arahants. Notes 1. It is possible, of course, to have desire for a sight that one has not seen. Strictly speaking, however, the desire is not "there" at the unseen sight. Rather, it's there at the present idea of the unseen sight. This distinction is important for the purpose of the practice. 2. See Ud I.10, where the Buddha gives these same instructions to Bahiya of the Bark-cloth. See also: MN 18; SN XXIII.2. ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46263 From: mlnease@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context mlnease Hi Howard (and Connie), > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". > However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be > helpful. Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally. > IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't > support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. Well--for argument's sake--if by 'secondary teachings' you mean the AP, I'll grant that they do suggest to some a psuedo-Dhamma (though of course I think the 'some' are mistaken). > The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are > filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this > to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere. When I say that beings are unreal in the discourses, I mean that they are pa.n.natti--depending on context meaning 'designation; name; concept; idea; a regulation' as I'm sure you know. This sense of 'unreality' seems a little different to me from the sense of 'illusory' from the Mahayana sutras. Just my reading, maybe. mike 46264 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Vism.XIV,163 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 163. 'Delusion' has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. It is manifested as the absence of right theory (see Ch. XVII,52), or it is manifested as darkness. Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable. 46265 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 10:32pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 210 - Zeal/chanda (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Thus we see that there are many kinds and degrees of chanda. Chanda is conditioned by the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. Chanda is saòkhåra dhamma, conditioned dhamma. Different kinds of chanda arise due to different conditions. It is hard to distinguish the different kinds of cetasikas from each other since there are several cetasikas at a time which accompany citta and assist it in carrying out its function. As we have seen, the “universals” arise with each citta. Summarizing them, they are: contact (phassa) feeling (vedanå) remembrance or “perception” (saññå) volition (cetanå) concentration (ekaggatå) life-faculty (jívitindriya) attention (manasikåra) As regards the six “particulars”, they do not arise with every citta but they arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Summarizing them, they are: applied thinking (vitakka) sustained thinking (vicåra) determination (adhimokkha) energy or effort (viriya) enthusiasm or rapture (píti) zeal or wish-to-do (chanda) ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46266 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 9:46pm Subject: Reaching Peace ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Brevity is Clarity: A deity once spoke this verse to the Blessed One: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should do meritorious deeds which brings happiness! The Exalted Buddha responded: Life inevitably ceases, short is the span of life. No safe shelter exists for one prone to ageing.. Seeing this danger of certain Death, one should drop the fleshy bait of this evanescent world! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 2 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46267 From: "vvk63" Date: Wed Jun 1, 2005 4:41am Subject: Hi! vvk63 Hello! I am new to this group. 46268 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Howard, Connie, Joop, Herman, Tep & all, I'd like to join in this useful thread too. Howard:> > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings".However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be helpful.<< > Mike:> Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally.< <...> Mike:>It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere.< ***** S: I think you’ve expressed this well. How about the Mahaahatthipadama Sutta, MN28, as a good example of what you say and as a ‘suttic reference’ to ‘back-up’ the Vism passage Connie quoted? Firstly, to repeat the passage: Connie:> Vis XI, 117: This bhikkhu who is devoted to the defining of the four elements immerses himself in voidness and eliminates the perception of living beings. Since he does not entertain false notions about wild beasts, spirits, orgres, etc., because he has abolished the perception of living beings, he conquers fear and dread and conquers delight and aversion (boredom), he is not exhilarated or depressed {42} by agreeable and disagreeable things, and as one of great understanding, he either ends in the deathless or his is bound for a happy destiny. Defining the four elements Is ever the wise man's resort; The noble meditator lion {43} Will make this mighty theme his sport. This is the description of the development of the defining of the four elements [371].< ***** S: MN28, Mahaahatthipadopama Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi trans): (After listing the five aggregates affected by clinging..) “And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element.” <....> “Now both the internal earth element (S:later also for water, fire and air elements)and the external earth element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate toward the earth element........ "When even this external earth element, great as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, disappearance, and change, what of this body, which is clung to by craving and lasts but a while? There can be no considering that as ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘I am’. “So then, if others abuse, revile, scold, and harass a bhikkhu [who has seen this element as it actually is], he understands thus: ‘This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent.” ***** S: Then Sariputta continues by giving the simile of the saw and how even when savagely attacked by bandits ‘he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching.’ In brief, by understanding that what we take for oneself and other beings are merely elements, conditioned to arise and fall away, this understanding will lead to greater social harmony, acceptance of whatever is arisen and to greater metta, compassion and equanimity towards others, especially those who harm us in anyway. This is why later in the same sutta, the passage I quoted the other day is given: "Now this has been said by the Blessed One: 'One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.' "And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding, based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering..." ***** S: In other words, the insight into conditioned dhammas or khandhas usually taken for ‘self’ or ‘person’ and the uprooting of clinging with regard to them is the path. Following the path by seeing the elements for what they are will condition purer brahma viharas which are not taken for ‘mine’. The ariyans without any wrong view can have far purer social concerns and the arhants without any deflements or ignorance of elements remaining, purer still. The Buddha, of course, had limitless compassion and the other qualities for all beings. Hence we read: “Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus ‘Worldly life is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view’, there descends the Great Compassion for beings.” (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great Compassion). I'll look forward to any further comments or reflections on elements. Metta, Sarah ========== 46269 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why > restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ===================== > The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute > *any* > other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as > 'while we > are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly > indulging'. ... S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for living the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment conditioned as it is in many complex ways? So if, for example, right now any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and satipatthana has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently arisen ones. .... > Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation > in general, I > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. ... S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. This is the way that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. .... > When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > depends. ... S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to help or reflect in a useful way. ... >At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, > is heartening, > and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us > away > from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, > excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from > ongoing > mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in > solitude > (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). .... S: Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude. Whenever we think there will be more or ongoing mindfulness or guarding of the senses at a later time or at a different place, it suggests there's no mindfulness at this very 'one moment and occasion' now. I don't know how far we can take this thread, Howard, but I'll be glad to hear any of your further comments. What really distinguishes 'meditation in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak to others as opposed to metta in solitude? Metta, Sarah ======= 46270 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, >tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant >feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not >pay particular attention? > > Very good question(s), Howard. Yes, I think they are fully hidden. Normally, we are 'aware' of people and things, not specifically sights or sounds. But even if we direct our attention to just one doorway, there is not the direct experience of visible object or sound or hardness, because the object of our attention will be vested with the same underlying misconceptions, beliefs, etc. as ever. Directed attention to a single doorway or its object is not the same as the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object. As I see it, it is not possible to attend to a particular dhamma by choice; it is only possible to attend to one's own (necessarily flawed) concept of that dhamma. >[Jon:] I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the >Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to >awareness of nama and rupa than others. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting >lost in thought? > > I think this is covered by my comments above. Whatever it is we might think we are paying attention to, it will not be a dhamma of any kind. Dhammas are apparent only to panna. Getting lost in thought is not kusala of course, but then again it is nothing more than thinking accompanied by attachment and/or ignorance, and no different really to other moments when we are lost in the visible object or sound or our conceptualising about what has been seen or heard. There is no reason why there cannot be awareness of that thinking with attachment and/or ignorance, if awareness should arise. It is 'normal' everyday life. It is the 'consciousness with lust' of the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta. Jon 46271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right effort, resolute striving [was, 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest'] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >This is one of the rare moments I have waited for -- when we can reach >an agreement and the case is closed! > A rare moment indeed! >T: Yes, of course, that's how I see it too. Right effort accompanies right >mindfulness when right view is being developed; similarly, right effort >and right mindfulness induce right thought, right action, and right >livlihood. Importantly, right concentration (defined in MN 10 and DN 22 >as the 1st through 4th jhana) is supported by the other 7 Path factors. >When all the 8 Path factors arise together, both samatha & vipassana >are yoked together. > Just to be quite clear on it, 'resolute striving' and 'right effort' are references to the mental factor of effort that accompanies certain moments of kusala consciousness, and not to any kind of (conventional) striving that precedes those moments of kusala consciousness. Are we agreed? Jon 46272 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: Does stuff happen? egberdina Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- Egbert wrote: > > Does concept formation occur? Is it a conventional process or an > > actual/ultimate one? Is there a difference? What is it? > ... > S: I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'concept formation'. Would you > kindly explain. ===== This will be my last post for nearly two weeks, so I'm afraid I won't be able to clarify further if the need arises. There seems to be a general acceptance of the "existence" of concepts. By asking after concept formation, I merely meant to inquire about the processes or conditions that lead to there being concepts. I then asked further about whether concepts "existed" in reality or conceptually. I wish you strength, courage and good cheer to mark the changing of direction after 20 years of effort, and wish you and Jon all the very best for at least the next twenty years :-) Thanks to everyone for good discussions. Kind Regards Herman > > On the other thread: > --- Egbert wrote: > > > Gawd, the commentaries are an amazing mish-mash of views, aren't they? > > There is only the present, but an omniscient mind knows all pasts and > > futures, and this is all held together by ultimate standards where > > possible, and conventional standards when impossible. > ... > S: Hmmm.... I specially gave the quotes on omniscience from the > Sutta-Pitaka, the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, and I can give a lot more. You may > wish to discuss the authenticity of this collection, but then I'd pass you > on to Tep:-). > > When is any ultimate reality from the past or future known at the present? > When the Buddha's omniscient wisdom is applied to it:-). > > "All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without > obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. > > All that is future, it knows... > All that is presently-arisen it knows... > Eye and visible objects: all that it knows... > Ear and sounds.... > Nose and odours.... > Tongue and flavours... > Body and tangible objects.... > Mind and ideas......" > .... > <...> > > My understanding of the Buddhist puzzle is that it is the opposite to > > Sudoku. One does not aim to go about filling in the blanks, and arrive > > at a knowledge of everything. The aim is to eliminate all the > > phenomenal, and end up with the non-phenomenal, lets cal it "nothing" > > for short. > ... > S: I think the aim is to eradicate present ignorance by directly > understanding the present dhammas appearing. > > "There is but one moment (kha.no) and occasion (samayo), monks, for living > the Brahmacariya" (AN iv 227). > ... > > > > As long as we are busily posting away to each other, we can all rest > > assured we are not yet in sight of the solution. > ... > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ... > >And as Phil was > > candid enough to share the other day, not everyone wants to solve the > > puzzle. Which is fine, of course :-) > ... > S: This is very true. We think we don't like attachment, for example, > because we've heard it's at the root of our problems and yet we cannot > live without it. Most the time we have no interest in solving the puzzle, > but better to be realistic and see whatever is conditioned for what it is > -- sankhara dhamma, not me. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s thx for also telling us you'll be away for a few days and glad the > family are worldly-fine. > ======= 46273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your quotes from Dispeller, this is now very clear. I am really grateful, I was thinking about it during our vacation. I frwd this to Htoo's personal mail. Nina. op 28-05-2005 14:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: I have a passage I'd marked (and forgotten about)in 'Dispeller' > (Sammohavinodanii) which clearly confirms Nina's explanation of the Vsim > Tiika comments with regard to lokuttara cittas arising without > sammaasankappa when 2nd-5th jhanas are used as basis: > > Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: 46274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 30-05-2005 22:46 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: However I still envision myself as > practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble > Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so > on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism > than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last > night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing > the discipline of the Dharma back to life. N: Very interesting. What good sila did you read about in the Talmud? Your remarks make me think of the Sigalovada sutta (Diigha Nikaaya, sutta 31), where Sigala followed the family tradition, honouring the six quarters. The Buddha gave his practice a deeper dimension. He spoke about desire, anger, delusion and fear that make one commit evil. He emphasized good friendship. Kusala siila is wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. A: Still I am unsure about whether it is necessary to have firm belief in > a single creator god, for personal reasons and carrying out the family > tradition. Still reading the Talmud and getting the same morality > lessons strengthened could help. Prayer, and buying into monotheistic > concepts and thinking all good comes from such an omnipotent god, > scare me a little bit, I would much rather work with the Dharma at > this point. N: What the Buddha taught and what we do not find in other religions: the truth of anatta. We can gradually understand that kusala and akusala need many conditions for their arising, many factors operating just for one single moment of kusala citta or akusala citta. This shows that there is no person or self who can control dhammas. But understanding of them can be developed. A:.... Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For > example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, > "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone > else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries > this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something > similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a > heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition > is to be carried out. N: This shows that the right cause will bring the right result. However, heavenly rebirth is not the ultimate goal, better still: the end of rebirth, this is the third noble Truth. As to family tradition: you can just take out what you find inspiring and helpful. You say: First we should understand what are the objects included in the four foundations of mindfulness. Any dhamma appearing now thorugh eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. These dhammas appear also when reading the Talmud, or writing posts, thinking about the family tradition. Nina. 46275 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions nilovg Hi Tep and Sarah, Good questions from Tep. I am glad Sarah answered them very clearly, I am just back. I can add something at one point only. I put one addition at the end. op 31-05-2005 09:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > --- Tep Sastri wrote: >> >> 1. DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta; There is the case where a monk >> generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors, arouses persistence, >> upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, >> unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... ." (samma-vayamo) >> >> Question 1. Does the chanda in this case accompany a) kama-vacara >> citta, or b) rupa-vacara citta, or c) arupa-vacara citta, or d) none of >> these? >> Question 2. Why have you chosen that answer for the Question 1? >> Question 3. Is there lobha associated with chanda here? Why? >> Question 4. Is there a "self" directing the activities in this case? >> Why? > .... Sarah: 1.kama-vacara at moments of satipatthana when the 4 right efforts are > being developed and lokuttara at moments when all Noble Eightfold Path > factors arise and the 4 right efforts are ‘fulfilled’. > > 2.references to the 4 right efforts are always (as I understand) in the > context of satipatthana and supramundane consciousness. Checking the > context in DN22 to confirm, I see it comes under the 4NT. Nina: I think also in kusala that is not included in satipatthana, samatha without satipatthana. Sarah: 3. no lobha with kusala (or sobhana to be precise) cittas. ‘Generates > desire’ or ‘rouses his will’ (Walshe tansl) can easily be misunderstood. > > 4. :-) remember, all dhammas are anatta. Chanda is anatta, vayamo is > anatta. Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is > right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that > understanding as you and Jon agreed, I believe. We can say a monk > generates chanda, but this has to be understood as being conventional > language as Howard has pointed out. > ***** Nina:Some addition, taken from Visuddhimagga studies: We are bound to meet obstacles in the development of vipassanaa, due to our defilements. But this text is a reminder not to loose courage, but to continue developing understanding of the realities that appear in daily life. It should be without hesitation, withour reluctance, without reserve, no matter whether the objects are pleasant or unpleasant, kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. This is the zeal of Dhamma, Dhammachanda.> Nina. 46276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >Our conversation on satipatthana, and the ways it may be developed, >continues in this post. > There is a lot of 'meat' in your post. I hope you don't mind if I take just a part of it to begin with ;-)) >Jon: Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4 >bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that >the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily >posture ... > >Tep: But don't forget that the sutta also specifically states that the >breathing meditation should be carried out while the bhikkhu is sitting >with legs crossed and straight back. > I think you are referring to this well-known passage from the sutta: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. ..." On my reading, this passage is not a teaching on how breathing meditation should be carried out, but is a description of the person to whom the next part of the teaching (the 4 tetrads) is addressed. Please note particularly the words 'gone to the forest, ... sits down etc. and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him.' This describes a monk in whom both samatha with breath as object and mindfulness are already well developed. Only this person is capable of the further development that is described in the following 4 tetrads. >Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are >one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to >develop such conditions are another. ... >For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which >requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, >concentration, and insights. ... > > The problem with regarding the various parts of the section on kayanupasana as describing 'tools' is that not all of the descriptions in the kayanupasana section fit into that pigeon-hole. Please consider the following passage: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ...; in bending and in stretching...; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ...; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured...; in defecating and in urinating; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." Is there any 'tool' described here? I don't think so. I see it as a description of ordinary, everyday, monks' activities. And I think the rest of the kayanupasana section can also be seen as describing activities forming part of the life lead by different kinds of monks, rather than actions to be deliberately undertaken for the sake of a satipatthana 'practice'. That's all for this post. I hope to come back on more of your points later! Jon 46277 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:10am Subject: Re: First three or all four brahma-vihaara social (Was: Not Sarah's Elaboration jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop and Herman - > > Thank you both for your thoughtfulness. I also believe that the social > aspect of the Dhamma is very important in Buddhism because no > Buddhist is an island. But does equanimity as the fourth factor of > brahma-vihaara have a social value? > Hallo Herbert, Tep and all Herbert: And right speech, right action and right livelihood taken out of a social context are quite meaningless also. Joop: You are right, I don't know why I did not mention these aspects of the Noble Eighfold Path that are cetasikas too. Perhaps I forgot because they can in Abhidhamma be found under the heading 'abstinences' and I think I skipped that chapter because the word 'abstinence' sounds more inner-directed than other-directed to me. In general: I don't know why 'right speech', 'right action' and 'right livelihood' are formulated positive (how to behave in a ethical way), but the explanations most times are formulated in a negative way (not to lie, not to kill, abstinence from alcohol etc). Is that because formulating negative is more easy or is there a more spiritual reason? In fact I prefer the positive formulation. Tep: But does equanimity as the fourth factor of brahma-vihaara have a social value? … My understanding tells me that upekkha as the 4th brahma-vihaara is the neutral state (with panna) that is in perfect equilibrium with the other three factors. Without upekkha there is no balancing act to condition peace of mind. For example, you can "spread" it to an individual who irritates you. … Joop: That's correct; but that 'spreading' in an activity on the individual inner level; to 'touch' the other person in a compassionate way, one needs some of the other dhammas, listed in the Abhidhamma. What I try to do here is to ask if it's possible to analyse social relations (= the interactions between human beings) with the frame of reference of the Abhidhamma. And analysis is something else than formulating intentions of individuals. I know how important that intention are, but that's not the topic on this moment. My conclusions: the Abhidhamma is very good is describing in a objective way the process of arising and falling away of dhammas in the individual; and it's good in describing the processes between individuals in the same objective way. Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions dnies the truth of anatta and anicca. The MIDDLE WAY, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment! And isn't is so that we, buddhists, have experience with The Middle Way? Metta Joop 46278 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Yes, that's what I wrote. Did you not understand my statements? > >Or is the difference one of degree only? > >James: Not sure what you mean. What is the difference and what is the >degree? (I don't do well answering leading questions) > I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). >James: ... The Satipatthana Sutta >lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 >parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they >don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that >the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case of mindfulness of breathing). Jon 46279 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 4:26am Subject: Not Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: Cetasikas' study egberdina Hi Tep and everyone, It turns out that my previous post, to Sarah, was actually the second last one for a while :-) I think your summary is very accurate, and lists all the salient variations. The Buddha was very wise to say the Dhamma has the same taste no matter what. We may all partake of the same teachings from our own positions, and yet the teachings can have the same flavour for all. This wouldn't be possible if instead of taste, sight was used as a unifying criterion. For no two beings can see exactly the same things, because no two beings can occupy the exact same space. This is a limitation of space, not the Dhamma. But I digress :-) The flavour of the Dhamma, from whatever position one occupies, is that all conditioned phenomena are anatta, anicca and dukkha. I do not think that positing the existence of beings runs counter to the flavour of the dhamma. Beings are only as real as memory. Memory is the supreme example of all that is anatta, anicca and dukkha. When there is memory, there is the grounding of experience into a stream, into a continuum. But when there is no memory, there is no possibility of a thought of continuity, no thought of being. I am wondering, do those who object to the positing of the existence of beings deny the reality of memory? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James, Howard, Evan, Herman - > > Thank you all for your unique and interesting thoughts on truths, > arahant's knowledge, reality, no-mind, emptiness and nothingness. It > seems to me that we are close in some issues, but I cannot draw a > single conclusion from our discussion (and I do not worry at all). > > Below is a list of the highlights of your thoughts -- try to make a > conclusion, if you can! > > Evan (# 46262): > > All matter consists of molecules and empty space. All molecules > consist of atoms and empty space. All atoms consist of protons, > neutrons, electrons and empty space. All subatomic particles consist > of even smaller particles and empty space. Where does it end? > ... ... all matter is empty space - or all matter in nothingness. > > Howard (# 46243): > > As I see it, truth in the sense of reality is indivisible, but there are > multiple understandings of that reality that are more or less precise and > more or less complete. For all but arahants, however, conventional > truth - conceptual truth - is a sine qua non for understanding, because it > is the primary means for apprehending properties and relations > available to us beings of limited wisdom.... An arahant knows but one > truth, THE truth, ... perfectly, directly, and completely, and it is quite > different from what any of us knows. > > James (#46244): > > I completely agree with your conclusions; they seem to closely match > mine in my post to Howard. I think much of the error occurs when us > worldlings try to `guess' how an arahant sees the world. ... The only way > to know is to eliminate craving by following the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Herman (# 46251): > > I agree with you, and am inclining at more than 45 degrees towards > Evan's interpretation :-). For my liking, being limited to either > conventional or ultimate truth is a false spectrum. > -- An ultimate truth.. is unknowable in any sense. Truth is a relationship > between different things. > -- The mind can relate things to an infinite level, by which process > any number of truths and falsehoods about the inter-relationships can > be known. But the ultimate act of the mind is to not relate any thing > at all. . (state of no-mind) ... truth just does not apply, there are no > relationships. > -- All truths are conventional by their very nature. ... What is real when I > am talking to my mother on the phone is real at that time, but it doesn't > apply when I am on the toilet or asleep. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, Evan (and everyone), > > > (snipped) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Herman and Howard (and any member who cares) - > > > > > > I like your on-going discussion ! The following is my opinion. > > > > > > We know that all physical matters consist of molecules floating in an > > > empty space. When we look at them at the molecular level, all > matters are nothing but molecules and empty spaces -- animals, trees, > cars, computers, and humans are not seen anymore. Yet, how can > anyone say that only the molecules are real and everything we see at > the macroscopic level is not real, or does not exist? Or both molecules > and the matters don't exist? > > > > > > In fact, there are macroscopic and microscopic levels in Buddhism > too - - they are, respectively, conventional truths and paramattha truths. > > > According to Nyanatiloka, paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desana) > > > is 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) > > > sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), > > > which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in > Skr: samvrti-satya). > > > > > > Some people get stuck at the definitions of pannatti and > paramathha- sacca, they think only the paramattha sacca is real; they > are confused. > > > Some people do not know in what situation paramattha truths are > > > preferable to conventional truths and vice versa; they are > indecisive. > > > Other people always prefer paramattha truths over the conventional > > > ones in all situations, they are inflexible in their application of the > > > Dhamma. > > > > > > But the truth may be that I am a confused person, who doesn't know > that he is confused. Please advise. > > > 46280 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Mike (and Connie) - Good to hear from you, Mike! :-) In a message dated 6/2/05 12:34:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@... writes: Hi Howard (and Connie), > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to "beings". > However, suttic references to back up statements by Buddhaghosa would be > helpful. Wholeheartedly agreed. I always like abhidhamma (from the abhidhammapi.taka, I mean) best when connected to the discourses, personally. > IMO, without such suttic evidence, secondary teachings along given lines don't > support belief but just the opposite, suggesting to some a pseudo-Dhamma. Well--for argument's sake--if by 'secondary teachings' you mean the AP, I'll grant that they do suggest to some a psuedo-Dhamma (though of course I think the 'some' are mistaken). ------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I had commentators, and most specifically Buddhaghosa, in mind. Though, IMO, the Abhidhamma Pitaka postdated the Buddha, I didn't have that in mind. (I do consider the Sutta Pitaka as most reliably Buddha word, and I think of it as constituting the gold backing for Buddhist currency.) ------------------------------------ > The Mahayana sutras, especially the perfection of wisdom sutras, are > filled with assertions of the unreality of "beings", but I don't believe this > to be the case for the Sutta Pitaka of the Tipitaka. It seems to me that the unreality of beings is explicit and/or implicit in every discourse that addresses the aggregates of attachment, at the very least (never mind the dhaatus etc.). ------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that it is there implicitly. ----------------------------------- As I see it this is abhidhamma in the suttas and is as pure and central an expression of Buddhadhamma as exists in the discourses or elsewhere. ----------------------------------- Howard: I don't much care for the DSG-popular term "abhidhamma in the suttas". The suttas provide the Dhamma, some with more detail, some with less, some more literally, and some more figuratively, but all Dhamma. I see Abhidhamma as an attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching context and with primary attention to precision. ---------------------------------- When I say that beings are unreal in the discourses, I mean that they are pa.n.natti--depending on context meaning 'designation; name; concept; idea; a regulation' as I'm sure you know. This sense of 'unreality' seems a little different to me from the sense of 'illusory' from the Mahayana sutras. Just my reading, maybe. mike ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46281 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon and James (interested members are welcome) - > >... >Well, for this post I like to focus only on the following Q&A. >... > > >Tep: James has made a valid point here for the >kayanupassana "activities" using breaths, bodily postures, the 32 >body parts, the four basic elements in the body, etc.. In addition to >helping develop sati-sampajanna, these kayanupassana activities >also help the yogi to condition mindfulness on the phenomenon of >origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing >away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & >passing away with regard to the body. > I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. First, the modes of deportment: "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a specific practice for developing mindfulness. Now reflection on the dhatus: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and can take place at any time, I think. >We should notice that there are >no special "activities" for the contemplation of feeling >(vedananupassana), or the contemplation of nama like citta , sanna, >samyojana, etc. Do you know why? > > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. Jon 46282 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/2/05 5:53:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Is there not the same 'one moment and one occasion' 'for living the > Brahmacariya' when we're 'busily posting away to each other'? Why > restrict > the opportunities for finding the solution? > ===================== > The problem with that, Sarah, is that one could properly substitute > *any* > other event-phrase for 'busily posting away to each other', such as > 'while we > are lying' or 'while we are killing' or 'while we are mindlessly > indulging'. ... S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for living the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment conditioned as it is in many complex ways? ------------------------------------ Howard: And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How *should* the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? ----------------------------------- So if, for example, right now any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? ------------------------------- Howard: All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't it? ------------------------------- The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and satipatthana has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently arisen ones. .... > Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana (cultivation > in general, I > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. ... S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does volition play a role here? -------------------------------- This is the way that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. ----------------------------- Howard: What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be exercised? Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? ----------------------------- .... > When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > depends. ... S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to help or reflect in a useful way. --------------------------------- Howard: What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the Dhamma lists? -------------------------------- ... >At its best, discussing the Dhamma directs the mind usefully, > is heartening, > and leads us to proper action. At its worst it fosters ego and leads us > away > from other important aspects of Dhamma practice. In that latter regard, > excessive posting, of which I am one who is guilty, takes one away from > ongoing > mindfulness, ongoing guarding of the senses, and regular meditation in > solitude > (which I think is a term preferable to 'formal meditation'). .... S: Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude. Whenever we think there will be more or ongoing mindfulness or guarding of the senses at a later time or at a different place, it suggests there's no mindfulness at this very 'one moment and occasion' now. ---------------------------------- Howard: Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as only ever possible in this 'one moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are making here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus there is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology is upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and "free will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings of the Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is just an attitude becomes a reality. It seems to me that we have to say to ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and conditions, but knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do have consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the Dhamma. Akusala kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can accomplish the opposite. ------------------------------------------- I don't know how far we can take this thread, Howard, but I'll be glad to hear any of your further comments. What really distinguishes 'meditation in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak to others as opposed to metta in solitude? ---------------------------------- Howard: The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red herring, though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, if anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of others, but of *interaction* with others. ------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46283 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist "practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/2/05 6:56:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, >tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc, all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant >feeling, etc, all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not >pay particular attention? > > Very good question(s), Howard. Yes, I think they are fully hidden. Normally, we are 'aware' of people and things, not specifically sights or sounds. But even if we direct our attention to just one doorway, there is not the direct experience of visible object or sound or hardness, because the object of our attention will be vested with the same underlying misconceptions, beliefs, etc. as ever. Directed attention to a single doorway or its object is not the same as the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object. As I see it, it is not possible to attend to a particular dhamma by choice; it is only possible to attend to one's own (necessarily flawed) concept of that dhamma. >[Jon:] I suppose it's a matter of perspective, but I do not see the >Satipatthana Sutta as saying that certain actions are more conducive to >awareness of nama and rupa than others. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting >lost in thought? > > I think this is covered by my comments above. Whatever it is we might think we are paying attention to, it will not be a dhamma of any kind. Dhammas are apparent only to panna. Getting lost in thought is not kusala of course, but then again it is nothing more than thinking accompanied by attachment and/or ignorance, and no different really to other moments when we are lost in the visible object or sound or our conceptualising about what has been seen or heard. There is no reason why there cannot be awareness of that thinking with attachment and/or ignorance, if awareness should arise. It is 'normal' everyday life. It is the 'consciousness with lust' of the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta. Jon /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46284 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] onco111 Howdy, Howard, A moment with you agreeing with me is a wonderful thing! Dan P.S. Actually, we are in agreement on quite a lot of things -- both more and less than we realize. "More" because it is the points of dispute that tend to come up in discussion; "less" because some of the issues we disagree on cut deep. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Dan - > > In a message dated 5/31/05 11:31:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@y... writes: > Dear Htoo, > Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the > statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The > determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or > kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing > itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal > sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, > nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the > determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are > referring to. > > You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. > When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, > but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in > formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well said, Dan! (That is ... I agree! ;-) > ---------------------------------- > > > Dan > > P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed. All the best, Htoo! > ====================== > With metta, > Howard > 46285 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Phil, is it the computer itself that is irritating your eyes? If there is any possibility it is so, keep in mind that new monitors are much cheaper than new glasses. Best wishes, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Howard, Larry, Dan... > > > Azita: can't remember what my reply was then, and i can't find the > > post, however I do remember thinking, at the time of my question > and > > the answer to it, that when there is an awareness of motion > > then "I'll" know what it is. That probably irritates you even > more, > > but that's not my intention. > > Ph: Not irritated now, but the irritation when it arises helps to > reflect on things. Very helpful. These days it's my eyes that are > irritated (still ahven't gotten around to getting glasses) so I'm > taking a break from the computer. I will be back on Saturday. > > Thanks for the feedback, all. > > Metta, > Phil > > > . 46286 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Hello, Sarah. I plan on listening to some of the recordings as soon as my iPod arrives in the mail (by early next week). I look forward to it. I believe I already listened to the India 2001 recordings on tape a few years ago, and didn't we already talk about some of the issues that were raised in the discussions? I believe there were some things you hadn't yet finished pounding on me about -- something I'm always open to................um, well, at least open to when there is enough time. Dare I say "retirement"? You'll be busier than ever and loving every minute of it (except those minutes when you are hatching your evil schemes to pound some poor, unsuspecting fool like me). Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan, > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > Interesting comments, Phil! > > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > > conceptualization. > ... > :-) Oh, that way you have with words....even though she says it so sweetly > and politely, not many people can take this lack of gratification > either.... "it's a long, long story...." , "...another situation?" > > Always good when you pop by, Dan.....hope you hang around long enough for > Nina to see you. I think you'll like all the edited recordings I just > referred to. More will be uploaded in due course, so keep an eye on the > site in case you miss my announcements here. On the Thai side, all the > recordings which leave the foundation have been edited and so I'm now > working on this big project on the English side with Jon's help and > K.Sujin's advice. It's slow. > > As you can imagine, I'm kept busy with all these projects and am > completely giving up my teaching/psychology business and consultancy work > this coming Saturday after 20 years of doing it here:-):-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46287 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:17am Subject: audio nilovg Hi Sarah and Jon, very good, I listened to the first audio. Good quality sound. It is a good idea for everybody to quote parts, it is always new, I find. I always discover new things. I had a little trouble finding the audio of DSG. org at first. I told Alan, he will like it. Many thanks and anumodana for all your good works, Nina. 46288 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 8:44am Subject: commitments matheesha333 Hello all, I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow this through. Untill such time.. metta Matheesha ------------------- "And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html 46289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! nilovg Hi vvk63, welcome;-)) But what is your name, and what are your interests? NIna. op 01-06-2005 13:41 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@...: > Hello! I am new to this group. 46290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] not doing anything? to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I was just discussing with Lodewijk during our trip (on an island) what you wrote below (perhaps foreseeing it!) and I was mentioning your name: 'Howard always says..' ;-)) ;-)) I was actually quoting Khun Sujin and was thinking that this was something for you. Here it goes: end quote. Thus, Howard, you see, these are strong words: to develop kusala hrough body, speech and mind. The perfections are included in these. We do not need to name them or think about them. But without them, impossible. I recently mentioned Lodewijk's and Phil"s favorite sutta: Nina. op 02-06-2005 15:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same > as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes > down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis > voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist > "practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I > consider it > harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being > so > wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) 46291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] commitments nilovg Hi Matheesha, Success with your exam. I hope you come back afterwards, I appreciated our exchanges, Nina. op 02-06-2005 17:44 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Hello all, > > I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have > other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid > conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I > have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It > has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow > this through. Untill such time.. > > metta > > Matheesha > > ------------------- > > "And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a > certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought > in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, > don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in > that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html > 46292 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 11:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). James: Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word `conducive'. From dictionary.com: "conducive adj : tending to bring about; being partly responsible for". Therefore, `necessary' and `conducive' are two entirely different meanings. There is no reasonable explanation as to why you can't see the difference between the two meanings. Consider the matter more deeply and get back to me if you wish. Jon: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling,consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand aspirations! ;-) Jon: As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case of mindfulness of breathing). James: Hmmm…you're going to hang quite a lot on that `one way' translation/interpretation of the introduction, even though there are many disagreements, aren't you? Well, I'm not going to touch that. Think what you wish. Metta, James 46293 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] not doing anything? to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/2/05 2:31:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I was just discussing with Lodewijk during our trip (on an island) what you wrote below (perhaps foreseeing it!) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, oh! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- and I was mentioning your name: 'Howard always says..' ;-)) ;-)) I was actually quoting Khun Sujin and was thinking that this was something for you. Here it goes: end quote. Thus, Howard, you see, these are strong words: to develop kusala through body, speech and mind. The perfections are included in these. We do not need to name them or think about them. But without them, impossible. I recently mentioned Lodewijk's and Phil"s favorite sutta: Nina. ========================== Yes, thank you, Nina (and Lodewijk)! BTW, this sutta is a favorite of mine as well. ;-) Indeed - it *can* be done, and I am grateful to the Buddha for showing the way! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] commitments jonoabb Hi Mateesha I join Nina in wishing you success with your exam, and look forward to seeing you back again soon. I have enjoyed your posts Jon PS Not sure if you ever saw this reply of mine, which went in somewhat late: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/45884 If not, never mind now, it will keep for later ;-)) matheesha wrote: >Hello all, > >I wont be able to engage with this group in any depth as I have >other commitments to attend to. I'm sorry about leaving in mid >conversation with some people here, but I have just found out that I >have to resit an exam and this group swollows hours of my time! It >has been interesting. Maybe oneday I will have the time to follow >this through. Untill such time.. > >metta > >Matheesha > >------------------- > >"And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a >certain person gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought >in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, >don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in >that.' This is called the miracle of instruction. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-060.html > > 46295 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Hi! onco111 Greetings, vvk63 and welcome. Don't feel shy about chiming in if some topic catches your eye or if you have other questions or comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vvk63" wrote: > Hello! I am new to this group. 46296 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 7:36pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - The presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing' (Group III) continues today. Again, please be reminded that words within square brackets [ ] most of the times are Commentary. 24. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the second jhana? Of the second jhana purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and encouragement is the end. 25. - 28. Of the second jhana purification of the way is the beginning: how many characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three .... [repeat paragraphs 20. to 23, substituting 'second jhana' for 'first jhana'] 29. - 33. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the third jhana? ... [repeat paragraphs 19. to 23.] 34. - 38. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the fourth jhana? ... [repeat paragraphs 20. to 23.] 39. - 58. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the four immaterial attainments] .... 59. - 148. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the 18 Principal Insights] .... 149. - 168. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the four paths] ... . *** [Simile of the Saw] 169. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas Does not obtain development. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing well these three ideas Can then obtain development. 170. How is it that these three ideas are not the supporting object (aarammana) of a single cognizance(citta), that they are nevertheless not unrecognized, that cognizance does not become distracted, that he manifests endeavour(padhaana), carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa)? Suppose there were a tree trunk placed on a level piece of ground, and a man cut it with a saw. The man's mindfulness is established by the saw teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw's teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so; and he manifests endeavour (padhaana), carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa). As the tree trunk placed on the level piece of ground, so the sign for the anchoring(upanibandhana) of mindfulness. [The 'sign for the anchoring of mindfulness' is the nose tip or upper lip 'which is the cause and the sign for the anchoring of mindfulness'. PSA 328 S] As the saw's teeth, so the in-breaths and out-breaths. As the man's mindfulness, established by the saw's teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw's teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so, and so he manifests endeavour, carries out a task(payoga) and achieves a distinctive effect(visesa); so too the bhikkhu sits, having established mindfulness at the nose tip or on the upper lip, without giving attention to the in-breaths and out-breaths as they approach and recede, though they are not unrecognized by him as they do so, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task and achieves a distinctive effect. What is the endeavour(padhaana)? The body(kaaya) and the cognizance(citta) of one who is energetic becomes wieldy (kammaniya): this is the endeavour. What is the task(payoga)? Imperfections come to be abandoned in one who is energetic, and his applied thoughts(vitakka) are stilled: this is the task. What is the effect? Fetters(samyojana) come to be abandoned in one who is energetic, and his underlying tendencies(anusaya) come to be done away with: this is the distinctive effect(visesa). So these three things are not the support object(aarammana) of a single cognizance(citta) and they are nevertheless not unrecognized, and cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect. *** 171. Whose mindfulness of breathing in And out is perfect, well developed, And gradually brought to growth According to the Buddha taught, 'Tis he illuminates the world Just like the full moon free from cloud. [Whole verse at Thag 549; last two lines at Dh 382. 182 takes candimaa (full moon) in the sense of candi-mani (moon possessor) like satimaa.] 172. 'Breathing in' (aana) is in-breath (assaasa); 'breathing out' (apaana) is out-breath (passaasa). [Read 'aanan ti assaaso no passaaso, apaanan ti passaaso no assaaso'. 'Assaasavasena' and so on without new para after 'assaaso'.] Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him. 173. 'Perfect' : perfect in the sense of embracing(pariggaha) [jhana, insight and path]; perfect in the sense of [the mutual] equipment (parivaara)[of all ideas connected therewith]; perfect in the sense of perfection. 174. 'Well developed' : There are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (i) development in the sense of non-excess(anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) arisen therein (I 135), (ii) development in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties (Indriya) (I 134), (iii) development in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy(viriya), (iv) development in the sense of repetition(aasevana). These four kinds of development(bhaavanaa) in him are made the vehicle(yaanikata), made the ground(vatthu), consolidated, reinforced and brought to very sameness(susama). 'Made the vehicle': he has mastery, power and assurance wherever he wishes, those ideas [of serenity and insight] are ready for his adverting, ready to his wish, ready to his attention, ready to his arising of cognizance. Hence 'made the vehicle' was said. Tep's Note: We shall complete this long Section iii in the next post -- to be presented next Friday (6/10). I also plan to write a discussion of Section iii following the next Friday posting. I hope that the material so far is interesting enough to capture your attention. There are several terms (and their Pali) that have to be studied carefully, especially those related to establishing of mindfulness and development of cognizance by means of breathing meditation. What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ? Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > The knowledge of cleansing (cognizance from imperfections or > uppakilesas) actually starts with the last six imperfections in Section ii, > namely: > > 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past breaths is attacked by > distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. > (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future breaths is an > obstruction to concentration. > (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an > obstruction to concentration. > (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and > is an obstruction to concentration. > (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to > concentration. > (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to > concentration. [end of excerpt] > > So these six imperfections of cognizance prevent it from becoming > united, because they make cognizance(citta) "disquieted, > perturbed and excited". They can be eliminated by means of the > thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing as follows. > 46297 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ?" Hi Tep, The three ideas are sign, in-breath, and out-breath. The object of jhana is sign. In this case the sign is the place where the in-breath and out-breath brush back and forth. That is where attention should be placed, rather than on in-breath or out-breath. There is awareness of these two but that awareness is in the background and shouldn't be cultivated. What is not mentioned is that there is a mix of sensation (rupa) and concepts of in-breath, out-breath, and place where they brush back and forth. It occurred to me that there are three rupas that are the signs of these three concepts. In other words, a certain rupa is interpreted as in-breath, another rupa is interpreted as out-breath, and a third rupa is interpreted as the place where they brush back and forth. This gives us three signs but I think we can still say the object of jhana is the sign where they brush back and forth because it is easiest to rest attention there, while 'in' or 'out' movements may be conducive to wandering mind. There seems to be a subtle vacillation between sign (rupa) and the idea it represents. Possibly this stabilizes as one becomes more skillful. Also, this suggests there is a closer relationship between concept and reality than I had thought. I had previously thought a sign is a concept, but it looks like a sign is a reality interpreted as a concept. What do you think? Larry 46298 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 10:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 211 - Zeal/chanda (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] The “universals” and the “particulars” arise with cittas of the four jåtis and these thirteen cetasikas are classified as one group: the aññasamånå cetasikas”(1). The aññasamånå cetasikas are different from the akusala cetasikas which only arise with akusala cittas and different from sobhana cetasikas which only arise with sobhana cittas. However, this does not mean that the “universals” and the “particulars” cannot be akusala or sobhana. When the aññasamånå cetasikas arise with akusala citta they all are akusala; they assist the akusala citta to carry out its function in an unwholesome way. When they accompany kusala citta they all are kusala; they assist the kusala citta in carrying out its function in a wholesome way. Cetasikas are conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany and they are of an entirely different quality as they accompany akusala citta, kusala citta, vipåkacitta or kiriyacitta. *** 1) Añña means “other” and samånå means “common”, the same. The aññasamånås which arise together are of the same jåti as the citta they accompany and they all change, become “other”, as they accompany a citta of a different jåti. Akusala is “other” than kusala and kusala is “other” than akusala. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46299 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike, Howard, Connie, Joop, Herman, Tep & all, > > I'd like to join in this useful thread too. > > Howard:> > Connie, as you know, I don't ascribe literal existence to beings". ..... > "Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus `Worldly life > is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view', there descends the Great > Compassion for beings." (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great > Compassion). > > I'll look forward to any further comments or reflections on elements. > > Metta, > > Sarah Hallo Sarah, Connie, Egbert and all There are two parallel threads about more or less the same topic, but that's no problem. In my message yesterday (sorry Egbert I made a mess of your name in it) I concluded: "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" From that conclusion I have two questions about your quotes: - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that direction? - If a person (not 'me' but also another one) had to be seen as a mere convention or concept; the question is: can a concept suffer, have dukkha ? (I think the answer is no, only a being can, and the 'I' can. Perhaps it's very akusala but I cannot have compassion with a concept) Metta Joop 46300 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (James, see*) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for > living > the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment > conditioned as it is in many complex ways? > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How > *should* > the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? > ----------------------------------- ..... S: By the development of panna. Volition (cetana) is there anyway at each moment. It’s not a Path factor. ..... >S: So if, for example, right now > any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any > other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? > ------------------------------- > Howard: > All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't > it? > ------------------------------- S: ;-) It is, but still the Self or self or simple lobha tries very hard to change the present dhamma ..... >S: The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and > satipatthana > has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding > or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently > arisen ones. > .... > >H: Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana > (cultivation > > in general, I > > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. > ... > S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala > and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about > really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does > volition > play a role here? > -------------------------------- S: Just as effort or volition cannot make seeing or visible object or hearing or sound arise or not arise at this moment, so they cannot make calm or insight arise now either. Whether or not calm or insight or seeing or hearing arises now, there is volition arising already with it, performing its function accordingly. .... >S: This is the way > that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be > exercised? > Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? > ----------------------------- S: It’s very easy to tell people to follow particular activities, but in this way they will never see the extremely subtle truths which the Buddha taught for the sake of the very few who might be able to appreciate the Middle Path. I believe this Middle Path is the development of Right Understanding and the other path factors through the development of satipatthana – the direct awareness and understanding of conditioned namas and rupas appearing right now. This has to be with detachment from what has arisen, regardless of whether the present dhamma is a sense door citta or object, a kusala dhamma or an akusala dhamma, for example. I know that it sounds like one of Herman’s puzzles and that the solution seems impossible, but it’s not. Like the AN sutta says, if it were impossible, if there were no solution, if there were no way out, the Buddha wouldn’t have taught the Noble Truths. I think the biggest hurdle is understanding (at least theoretically) what paramattha dhammas are and what the distinction between namas and rupas are. When I read your messages to others on these topics and in your own words these days, I think you appreciate this essence of the Tipitaka pretty well. (this isn’t meant to sound condescending or like I have all the answers, but I don’t know how else to express my respect for the way you’ve checked and considered the texts so carefully). ... > >H: When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > > depends. > ... > S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which > predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist > (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to > help or reflect in a useful way. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be > cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the > Dhamma lists? > -------------------------------- S: Whatever intentions or cittas arise, they’re conditioned already. Whether we plan to post or be quiet, kusala cannot be controlled, however much the ‘itch’ (thanks, Dan) would like it otherwise. What we’re discussing, as I see it, are the Buddha’s teachings, in order to really understand these dhammas arising for what they are – anatta. In this sense, I don’t really see that it matters at all what the present dhamma is or what the present intention is – the minding and mattering are just aspects of attachment, clinging to self again, as I see it. [apologies for conditioning any irritation here, Howard. Not my intention:-)) see*] ...... > Howard: > Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as > only > ever possible in this 'one > moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're > > sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are > making > here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus > there > is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a > > doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology > is > upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. ... S: No, it’s not upsetting at all. I quite understand why this seems to be the implication, even if I think it’s wrong . This really is the most subtle apect of the teachings, imho. Yes, the dhammas at this moment are conditioned already. No, the teaching is not deterministic, hopeless or helpless in anyway. Why not? Because there is a path. Right understanding can be developed right now, conditioned by this very reading, considering and reflecting on these points. Now, there is seeing, visible object, hearing and other dhammas arising and falling. Awareness can be aware immediately, especially now you appreciate what visible object is, what hardness is, what sound is, what seeing is and so on. At moments of awareness and understanding, there is no doubt, no confusion, no thought or feeling of hoplelessness or helplessness at all. Right? To be honest, I think these points you’re raising are very good ones.....just ‘hang in’ there...:-) .... >H: I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and > "free > will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings > of the > Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is > just > an attitude becomes a reality. ... S: I think this is just thinking with doubt. Again, these dhammas can be known right now when they arise (along with any irritation too:-)). .... >It seems to me that we have to say to > ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and > conditions, but > knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do > have > consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the > Dhamma. Akusala > kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can > accomplish the > opposite. .... S: Right. No disagreement here. Usually, however, we take the good and bad actions and volitions for ‘mine’ and ‘others’’, not appreciating that they too are conditioned. .... >S:What really distinguishes 'meditation > in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak > to others as opposed to metta in solitude? > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, > calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red > herring, > though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, > if > anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of > others, > but of *interaction* with others. .... S: I’ve often quoted the Migajala sutta here (SN35:63) and other similar suttas on ‘living alone’ . Could they be said to be referring to meditation as you see it? Can ‘meditation in solitude’ refer to the learning to live alone with the six world appearing now, regardless of circumstances? “Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus [not in bondage to the 6 worlds through attachment] lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.” S: I see the message as being the one of understanding the cause of bondage and developing the understanding of the worlds on account of which craving arises. I don’t see the message as being to take any particular actions of any kind for this purpose. How about you? Metta, Sarah *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# Q’aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone’s right – the list is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, you’ll understand why we’re so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). ==================== 46301 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hello, Sarah. > I plan on listening to some of the recordings as soon as my iPod > arrives in the mail (by early next week). I look forward to it. ... S: It's a great way to go. Not only does one look as trendy as one's students, but one can catch a few good reminders anytime. This week to celebrate the upcoming 'retirement' -- we'll see if the term fits down the line--, I actually got to the dentist and the hairdressers in preparation for a party with some students tomorrow. These are things that have been put off for months and months when I've been busy. Listening to dhamma on my pink i-pod, dressed in winter gear for the typical arctic-like air-conditioning here in the summer, the dental cleaning and hair-snipping which usually seem like painfully slow ordeals were far too quick this time round:-). ... >I > believe I already listened to the India 2001 recordings on tape a few > years ago, and didn't we already talk about some of the issues that > were raised in the discussions? I believe there were some things you > hadn't yet finished pounding on me about -- something I'm always open > to................um, well, at least open to when there is enough > time. ... S: there, Howard. Someone who likes poundings!! Dan, quite possible. But now, the recordings are 'super-edited' (snipped all long pauses, long stories, coughs, outrageous laughter, Thai....). Anyway, listen again when you get your i-pod (-- great on walks too. Jon's been listening to the Thai talks this way for years) and let me know what you find. I think the pounding is usually pretty mutual. I quiver in anticipation....:-). ... > Dare I say "retirement"? You'll be busier than ever and loving every > minute of it (except those minutes when you are hatching your evil > schemes to pound some poor, unsuspecting fool like me). ... S: :-). Thanks, Dan ....(also to Herman for your good wishes). Jon's also leaving HK Government after 20 years with it (60 is official retirement age for civil servants here), but he intends to keep working for a while if he can. We'd love to meet some of you guys in the States if we find we have more time and enough $, but that's down the road a while. Maybe New York sometime with Nina too.... Metta, Sarah ========= 46302 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi all, > > Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? ... S: Who were 'you two'? I think it's a typo for nibbana. Nibbana is the only 'unconditioned' dhamma or reality. There are also 'conditioned' realities. ... > > The five aggregates of a human is real? ... S: yes, the five aggregates are real. The human is a concept. .... > What is real is unimportant? .... S: What do you mean? .... > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Metta, Sarah =========== 46303 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Htoo and thank--- sarahprocter... Hi Lisa,(*MattR, Sukin, Manu) I'm just about out of time, but as I'm going to be busy at the weekend, I just wanted to touch base with you. You wrote a great post on vedana -- clearly you've been doing a lot of good homework and are getting the feelings on track!. I like the style:). --- Lisa wrote: > Here are some is some of my study on Vendana: > > 1. In the Abhidhammattha Vibhavini, on commentator said, 'vedayati, > arammananubhavanarasam anubhavati'ti vedana'. It is the feeling of an > object that is called vedana. ... S: yep .... > The feeling that is able to determine whether an object is good or > bad, pleasant or unpleasant; neither good nor bad, neither pleasant > nor unpleasant is called vedana. .... S: Just to put it another way, the vedana just feels in a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral way. It just 'tastes' the object, rather than determining anything about it. I say this because it's not just the object which determines the feeling. .... > From the arammananubhavana, there are three kinds of vedana, > sukhavedana (pleasant feeling), dukkhavedana (unpleasant feeling), > adukkhamasukhavedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling). This > is spoken of in the Dhammasangani of Abhidhammapitaka from the > Buddha's mouth. > > 1. cakkhusamphassaja vedana arises (or could I use triggered, > manifests or comes up?) when the eye comes in contact with a visual > object) > > 2. sotasamphassaja vedana (arises when the ear comes in contact with > a sound) > > 3. ghanasamphassaja vedana (arises when the nose comes in contact with > a smell) > > 4. jivhasamphassaja vedana (arises when the tongue comes in contact > with a taste) > > 5. kayasamphassaja vedana (arises when the physical body comes in > contact with a tangible object) > > 6. manosamphassaja vedana (arises when the mind comes in contact with > a mental object) > > These six kinds of vedana are referred to in the Majjhima Nikaya text > and also the Chachakkasutta and I guess many others as well. ... S: Yep, so far,so very good. .... > These vedana of three, five, six and so on, are nothing but cetaskika > (mental concomitants) with each and every citta(mind or consciousness) > that arise from moment to moment. Like vedana, there are six other > cetasikas that arise, that follow along with the mind or > consciousness. Each of these seven cetasikas are also known as > sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, are involved with all kinds of mind or > consciousness. > > There are seven sabbacittasadharana cetasikas, vedana is the second > cetasika. Also there are five khandhas-rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, > sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha. Vedana is the > second Khanda of the above mentioned five. ... S: Yes. Also read the chapter on 'vedana' in Nina's 'Cetasikas'. I think I gave the extracts just before you joined DSG. .... > > Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavana (Insight > meditation). ... S: ??? .... > In the Pathamaja Sutta, Mahasalhayatanika Sutta, Samadhi Sutta, and > from references I found many other suttas that also mention this, > there are five objects of vipassana-bhavana (Insight meditation). ... S: ??? I'm lost. Please clarify or quote. .... > > There are five pasadarupa (sensitive corporeality) such as > cakkhupasada and so on, one of these five being the first object of > Vipassana meditation. > > Also included there are five objects such as visible objects and one > of one of the five being the second object. ... S: I think you're losing the plot again here and confusing namas and rupas and different rupas. Also, I don't understand there to be any order as such of vipassana, though I agree that visible objects are usually referred to first out of the sense objects. Remember, vedana is not a sense object. Also, eye-base and visible object are not the same of course. ..... > > There are five consciousnesses such as cakkhuvinnana(eye > consciousness) and one of these five consciousnesses being the third > object. > > Phassa (contact) cetasika is the fourth object. > > Vedana cetasika is the fifth object. ... S: Ok, now I'm with you, though I wouldn't put it as any order of vipassana bhavana. Just the order that dhammas are sometimes mentioned in the suttas. .... > Vedana is the fifth object of the five. Vedana plays a large part in > tanha (Dependent Origination?). When tanha is triggered it is because > of sensation or vedana, which brings with it upadana, bhava and jati > close behind it, I read they usually follow and there is no controling > this force once tanha has been triggered or manifested or arisen > (which is a better word to use?) ... S: Remember that vedana (and phassa too) arise with every single citta. Yes, tanha is very, very influenced by the feelings as you say. (I think any of the words are ok - triggered as in conditioned etc). .... > So if tanha, which belongs to samudayasacca (2nd Noble Truth), is not > cut, like cutting away the root of a weed, all that follows will > become dukkhasacca (1st Noble Truth) that is everything that is born > and passes away and will suffer from grief, sorrow, pain and despair > from this cycle of birth and decay. .... S: Right. Dukkhasacca refers to the impermanent nature of all conditioned dhammas regardless....so tanha has to be seen for what it is and as arising on account of these khandhas. ... > > Question: Is Vedana the cause of tanha or is it the cause of panna? ... S: I would say neither, though vedana can be the object of either tanha or panna and thus be object condition, also decisive support and other conditions too, I'm sure. The real cause of tanha is the long, long accumulated tanha and avijja (ignorance). The cause of panna is the accumulated panna, the wise considering, reflecting and listening to the truths. Again, remember that vedana arises with every citta and it depends on so many conditions whether there is wise or unwise attention to those feelings. .... > Samahito sampajano, sato Buddhassa savako Vedana ca pajanati, > vedananam ca sambhavam. Yattha ceta nirujjhanti, Maggam ca > khayagaminam Vedananam khaya, bhikkhu nicchato parinibbuto ti. > > Samyutta-nikaya IV > > A follower of the Buddha, with concentration, awareness and constant > thorough understanding of impermanence, knows with wisdom the > sensations, their arising, their cessation and the path leading to > their end. A meditator who has reached the end of all sensations > (stage of Nibbana) is freed from craving, fully liberated. ... S: I'd like to see the full reference. All dhammas need to be known, not just feelings. (better to forget 'sensations' as it's so misleading imho). Sometimes the Buddha gives the example of feelings, sometimes of the 4 elements, sometimes the sense objects. No rule of what should be known -- just depends what appears without any selection. Lisa, you'll relate to this -- I have to run out the door, pick up the keys from the bowl(!!), no time for checks and balances -apologies for any abruptness or denseness on my part. Have a good weekend and look forward to more of your research. *Thx again for the great pics in the album and also to Ivan aka Matt R or Sukin for putting in a new pic in the 'DSG group meetings' with Ven Yanatharo, Manu (from Laos), MattR himself and possibly an 'enlightened' shot of the back of Jon's head!! Metta, Sarah ====== 46304 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, (James, see*) > Metta, > > Sarah > *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# > Q'aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone's right – the list > is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, > you'll understand why we're so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). > ==================== ;-)) I knew it...I knew it...I knew it!! I'll keep this information in mind for now on when I read your posts- to know that the 'coldness' isn't intentional ;-) For those who wonder what this is all about, take this 'Defective Personality Test' (Non-Buddhist but rather fun): http://tinyurl.com/dfnk9 (But be warned: It doesn't spare your feelings) Metta, James ps. I am a 'Starving Artist' 46305 From: "mnease" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context mlnease Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context > Howard: > I don't much care for the DSG-popular term "abhidhamma in the suttas". > The suttas provide the Dhamma, some with more detail, some with less, some more > literally, and some more figuratively, but all Dhamma. I see Abhidhamma as an > attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching context > and with primary attention to precision. Right--guess we're both aware of our differences of opinion regarding abhidhamma. Really not sure why I bothered! Cheers, mike 46306 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:52am Subject: Re: What is real ... nichiconn Hi Charles, Sarah, > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Connie: No. 1 citta 52 cetasika 1 nibbaana so, 54 naama and 28 ruupa (4 primary + 24 derived**) gives 82 paramattha dhammas. Vism XIV - Description of the Aggregates (Materiality): 33: When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc. are the ', the here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. [...] **36. (b) is of 24 kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible-datum, sound, odour, flavour; {13} femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation, verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. [...] 40: 4. The tongue's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of flavours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to taste. Its function is to pick up [an object] among flavours. It is manifested as the footing of tongue-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to taste. >> peace, connie 46307 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? foamflowers I'm sneaking in to post from work....shhhh don't tell my boss, I can't help posting this stuff it is way to fun to pass up, plus I haven't stopped by to say hi to all of my Dhamma friends (My mate and I are moving to a new apartment-lots of stuff happening right now). Here is my test! And I am not suprised at all but my score...lol... [[[Emo Kid]]] You are 42% Rational, 42% Extroverted, 28% Brutal, and 14% Arrogant. The brutal and arrogant part is just hidding it's huge and just waiting to erupt! To put it less negatively: 1. You are more INTUITIVE than rational. 2. You are more INTROVERTED than extroverted. 3. You are more GENTLE than brutal. 4. You are more HUMBLE than arrogant. Compatibility: Your exact opposite is the Smartass. Other personalities you would probably get along with are the Hippie, the Televangelist, and the Starving Artist. [[[[waves at James--> I am actually an artist...hahaha]]] With Metta and giggles, Lisa > ;-)) I knew it...I knew it...I knew it!! I'll keep this information > in mind for now on when I read your posts- to know that the 'coldness' > isn't intentional ;-) For those who wonder what this is all about, > take this 'Defective Personality Test' (Non-Buddhist but rather fun): > http://tinyurl.com/dfnk9 > (But be warned: It doesn't spare your feelings) > > Metta, > James > ps. I am a 'Starving Artist' 46308 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Htoo and thank--- foamflowers > ... > S: Yes. Also read the chapter on 'vedana' in Nina's 'Cetasikas'. I >think I gave the extracts just before you joined DSG. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah]I will check it out this weekend, I like to kick back and read Dhamma on the weekend...helps me stay balanced. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Vedana is the fifth object according to vipassana-bhavan(Insight >meditation). >S: ??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah]made a note of this Sarah and I will pull up my references and post on Sunday and also try and clarify some of the other passages you found fuzzy and or confusing for my own Good (very selfish motivation here!). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > S: I'd like to see the full reference. All dhammas need to be >known, not just feelings..... > Lisa, you'll relate to this -- I have to run out the door, pick up >the keys from the bowl(!!), no time for checks and balances - >apologies for any abruptness or denseness on my part. Have a good >weekend and look forward to more of your research. > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== [lisa] Totally understand I am on the run right now as well, life is going full tilt and I'm just hanging on by the skin of my teeth;) Love you, with Metta ((((((big metta hugs to the group I am such an Emo Kid))))))), Lisa 46309 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/3/05 5:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, (James, see*) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Yes. Isn't the point of the 'one moment and one occasion ...for > living > the Brahmacariya' that there really only ever is this present moment > conditioned as it is in many complex ways? > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how does that conditioning come to be usefully modified?How > *should* > the modification be accomplished? By what volitional actions? > ----------------------------------- ..... S: By the development of panna. Volition (cetana) is there anyway at each moment. It’s not a Path factor. --------------------------------------- Howard: And what volitional actions should one take to cultivate pa~n~na? None? --------------------------------------- ..... >S: So if, for example, right now > any of these activities taking place by conditions, how can there be any > other time or opportunity for living the Brahmacariya? > ------------------------------- > Howard: > All action is in the moment. That is rather much of a truism, isn't > it? > ------------------------------- S: ;-) It is, but still the Self or self or simple lobha tries very hard to change the present dhamma -------------------------------------- Howard: Forget about self & lobha. Is there no such thing as right effort? Cultivation is possible. ------------------------------------- ..... >S: The various dhammas arise and fall away in split seconds and > satipatthana > has to be developed to 'follow' what is arising. This means not avoiding > or fearing any kind of akusala dhammas but really facing the presently > arisen ones. > .... > >H: Not all "single moments and occasions" are equivalent - not all are > > worthwhile, productive, or liberating. That is what bhavana > (cultivation > > in general, I > > mean) is about: fostering kusala states and avoiding akusala. > ... > S: Of course, not all are equivalent or worthwhile etc. Kusala is kusala > and akusala is akusala. However, the bhavana or cultivation is about > really seeing the truth of what has arisen for what it is. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it *is* about that, and also about calming the mind. Does > volition > play a role here? > -------------------------------- S: Just as effort or volition cannot make seeing or visible object or hearing or sound arise or not arise at this moment, so they cannot make calm or insight arise now either. Whether or not calm or insight or seeing or hearing arises now, there is volition arising already with it, performing its function accordingly. ---------------------------------- Howard: Forget about calm and insight arising *right now*. What about cultivation for the future. Yes, pa~n~na etc arise when the conditions are in place. Those conditions require cultivation, which requires volitional action. --------------------------------- .... >S: This is the way > that kusala states will be fostered and akusala avoided, as I see it. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > What, exactly, is the way? In what manner should volition be > exercised? > Did the Buddha say? Did he not prescribe cultivational activities? > ----------------------------- S: It’s very easy to tell people to follow particular activities, but in this way they will never see the extremely subtle truths which the Buddha taught for the sake of the very few who might be able to appreciate the Middle Path. I believe this Middle Path is the development of Right Understanding ------------------------------- Howard: HOW? By wishing it into being? No, by application of right action. ------------------------------- and the other path factors through the development of satipatthana ------------------------------- Howard: How shall insight be developed? By good luck!? Specific results require specific conditions. ------------------------------- – the direct awareness and understanding of conditioned namas and rupas appearing right now. --------------------------------- Howard: What is required to cultivate that direct awareness and undserstanding. No volition? No specific actions? Good luck? -------------------------------- This has to be with detachment from what has arisen, regardless of whether the present dhamma is a sense door citta or object, a kusala dhamma or an akusala dhamma, for example. -------------------------------- Howard: WHAT has to be with detachment? And how is detachment to be brought about? By nothing that is volitional? -------------------------------- I know that it sounds like one of Herman’s puzzles and that the solution seems impossible, but it’s not. ------------------------------------ Howard: I hear no solution being proposed here. ----------------------------------- Like the AN sutta says, if it were impossible, if there were no solution, if there were no way out, the Buddha wouldn’t have taught the Noble Truths. --------------------------------- Howard: Indeed, it is possible! And what is required? The intentional cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. -------------------------------- I think the biggest hurdle is understanding (at least theoretically) what paramattha dhammas are and what the distinction between namas and rupas are. ---------------------------------- Howard: I think the biggest hurdle is thinking that there is nothing to do. --------------------------------- When I read your messages to others on these topics and in your own words these days, I think you appreciate this essence of the Tipitaka pretty well. ---------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps I understand to an extent. But we are so far apart on this matter of practice that I cannot understand why you would think I appreciate the essence of the Tipitaka. --------------------------------- (this isn’t meant to sound condescending or like I have all the answers, but I don’t know how else to express my respect for the way you’ve checked and considered the texts so carefully). ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, thanks. :-) -------------------------------- ... > >H: When busily posting away, "good" may be occurring or "bad" - that > > depends. > ... > S: Of course. Again it depends on sati and panna to know which > predominates. Sometimes we may feel tired or have an aching arm or wrist > (as I often do), but know that the main intention is to share or try to > help or reflect in a useful way. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > What if that is *not* one's main intention? Can kusala intention be > cultivated? If not, what in the world are we discussing on all the > Dhamma lists? > -------------------------------- S: Whatever intentions or cittas arise, they’re conditioned already. Whether we plan to post or be quiet, kusala cannot be controlled, however much the ‘itch’ (thanks, Dan) would like it otherwise. What we’re discussing, as I see it, are the Buddha’s teachings, in order to really understand these dhammas arising for what they are – anatta. In this sense, I don’t really see that it matters at all what the present dhamma is or what the present intention is – the minding and mattering are just aspects of attachment, clinging to self again, as I see it. [apologies for conditioning any irritation here, Howard. Not my intention:-)) see*] ...... > Howard: > Consider your statement "Again, I would see 'Dhamma practice' as > only > ever possible in this 'one > moment and occasion' which has been conditioned already, no matter we're > > sitting at the computer or in solitude." What is the implication you are > making > here, Sarah? It is that what happens now is already determined, and thus > there > is nothing ever that changes the course of events. This is what I call a > > doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. I know that such terminology > is > upsetting, but it is exactly as I see it. ... S: No, it’s not upsetting at all. I quite understand why this seems to be the implication, even if I think it’s wrong . This really is the most subtle apect of the teachings, imho. Yes, the dhammas at this moment are conditioned already. No, the teaching is not deterministic, hopeless or helpless in anyway. Why not? Because there is a path. -------------------------------- Howard: Unless it is followed, there might as well not be one! ------------------------------- Right understanding can be developed right now, conditioned by this very reading, considering and reflecting on these points. ------------------------------- Howard: Could happen. Might not. Is there volition required to study and contemplate? BTW, is Right Conversation a ninth link? Is it a good substitute for samma samadhi? ------------------------------- Now, there is seeing, visible object, hearing and other dhammas arising and falling. ------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. Dhammas are observed all the time, despite the fact that Jon says we don't observe dhammas but only concepts. (The realities that are observed are dhammas! When we are conventionally willing, there is more actual cetana present in our mindstates. When we are conventionally in a rage, our mindstates are filled with dosa. To find the dhammas, we need only look to the pa~n~natti.) Everybody, all sentient beings, animals included, observe dhammas all the time. Are they all engaged in Dhamma practice? Well, of course not. It requires strong and very specific intention to be engaging in Dhamma practice. ----------------------------------- Awareness can be aware immediately, especially now you appreciate what visible object is, what hardness is, what sound is, what seeing is and so on. At moments of awareness and understanding, there is no doubt, no confusion, no thought or feeling of hoplelessness or helplessness at all. Right? ------------------------------------ Howard: One has to LOOK, to look beyond superficial appearances. The intention to do so, and the repeated practice of looking is required. ---------------------------------- To be honest, I think these points you’re raising are very good ones.....just ‘hang in’ there...:-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Sure will! ;-) ---------------------------------- .... >H: I agree that there is a paradox with regard to conditionality and > "free > will", but if we let ourselves get stuck in that, applying the teachings > of the > Buddha becomes impossible, and the hopelessness and helplessness that is > just > an attitude becomes a reality. ... S: I think this is just thinking with doubt. Again, these dhammas can be known right now when they arise (along with any irritation too:-)). ------------------------------ Howard: They can be IF IT IS DONE! That reuires intention and effort, *conventional* intention and effort, because underlying these are the realities that get the job done. ----------------------------- .... >It seems to me that we have to say to > ourselves that, yes, nothing arises except according to causes and > conditions, but > knowing that volitional action is possible, and that such actions do > have > consequences must be kept in mind. Kamma/volition is central to the > Dhamma. Akusala > kamma leads one in a downbound direction, but kusala kamma can > accomplish the > opposite. .... S: Right. No disagreement here. Usually, however, we take the good and bad actions and volitions for ‘mine’ and ‘others’’, not appreciating that they too are conditioned. ----------------------------------- Howard: So what? We start where we are, influenced by sense of self and even, in some cases, by belief in self. If we cannot begin where we are, then liberation is impossible, and we should just all go out for a nice stiff drink! ------------------------------------ .... >S:What really distinguishes 'meditation > in solitude' and meditation in company? What about metta now as we speak > to others as opposed to metta in solitude? > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > The difference is exactly a matter of degree/depth of concentration, > calm, and mental vigor (viriya). The "company" aspect is a bit of a red > herring, > though. One can meditate along with hundreds of other meditators, and, > if > anything, that context is helpful. It is not a matter of the presence of > others, > but of *interaction* with others. .... S: I’ve often quoted the Migajala sutta here (SN35:63) and other similar suttas on ‘living alone’ . Could they be said to be referring to meditation as you see it? Can ‘meditation in solitude’ refer to the learning to live alone with the six world appearing now, regardless of circumstances? “Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus [not in bondage to the 6 worlds through attachment] lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.â€? ----------------------------------- Howard: That's one usage. The Buddha used terms in varying ways to suit the context and to make particular points. ----------------------------------- S: I see the message as being the one of understanding the cause of bondage and developing the understanding of the worlds on account of which craving arises. I don’t see the message as being to take any particular actions of any kind for this purpose. How about you? ----------------------------------- Howard: I *do*. I see the Buddha as having taught the taking of very specific actions for very definite purposes. --------------------------------- Metta, Sarah *(for friends of James –confession time. I just went along with the #!@# Q’aire for both the mods...and, to my horror, everyone’s right – the list is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, you’ll understand why we’re so infuriating at times - don't blame us:-). ---------------------------------- Howard: Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46310 From: nina Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 11:20am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 163. Ignorance. Intro: Moha, ignorance or delusion, is an akusala cetasika which is root, hetu. As we have seen, there are three sobhana hetus which are alobha, non-attachment, adosa, non-aversion, and amoha or paññaa. The sobhana hetus are the foundation or support of sobhana (beautiful) citta, they are like the roots of a tree which are its foundation and its means of obtaining nourishing sap. There are three akusala hetus which are lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha. They are the foundation or support of akusala citta. Eight akusala cittas are rooted in lobha and moha, two akusala cittas are rooted in dosa and moha and two akusala cittas have moha as their only root. Moha accompanies each akusala citta. ***** Text Vis. 163: 'Delusion' has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. ------------ N: The Tiika explains that blindness of citta is not seeing the nature of dhammas (dhammasabhaava) as they truly are. Unknowing (aññaa.na.m) is the opposite of understanding. Understanding illuminates the object that is experienced, whereas moha darkens it. The Pali term andha used here means blind or dark. -------------- Text Vis.: Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. ------------- N: Moha is unable to penetrate the four noble Truths. Its function is to conceal the true nature of the object that is experienced. We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): ------------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as the absence of right theory (sammaapa.tipatti, see Ch. XVII,52), ---------------- N: Absence of right theory is the translation of asammaa-pa.tipatti. Pa.tipatti literally means practice. The translator refers to Ch. XVII, 52 which deals with Œno theory¹, as not knowing about dukkha, etc. In this context we should not think of pa.tipatti as mere book knowledge or theory. It refers to right understanding of the true nature of the dhamma that appears. When there is moha there is absence of right understanding of the dhamma that appears. ------------- Text Vis.: or it is manifested as darkness. ----------- N: The Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. Moha darkens the true nature of visible object, sound, of all realities that arise at this moment. ---------------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. --------------- N: Unwise attention, ayoniso manaasikaara, is the proximate cause of all akusala that arises. ------------------ Text Vis.: It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable. ---------------- N: Moha is the root of all akusala. When we do not apply ourselves to daana, siila, samatha or vipassanaa, we act, speak or think with akusala citta and this is always accompanied by moha. Whenever we are attached to visible object, sound or another sense object, there is also moha which causes blindness. It conceals the true nature of the object that is experienced. Moha arises countless times in a day, but we do not realize this. Ignorance is a latent tendency which conditions the arising of akusala citta time and again. Moha does not know what kusala and akusala are, it is ignorant of the conditions for their arising. It is ignorant of kamma and vipaaka. It does not realize the impurity and the danger of akusala which can bring an unpleasant result. Moha does not know naama and ruupa as they are. It does not know the difference between ultimate realities and concepts. Moha is ignorant of the four noble Truths, of dukkha, of its origination, of its ceasing and of the way leading to its ceasing. So long as there is ignorance we have to continue in the cycle of birth and death. Ignorance is the first link of the Dependent Origination. ****** Nina. 46311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard nilovg Hi Sarah, op 03-06-2005 11:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Maybe New > York sometime with Nina too.... N: Yea, invading Howard's home in Long Island. Great! Just this evening Lodewijk said he wants a sentimental journey in New York, to see the U.N. again. We are not sure when. I liked the Sarah/ Howard dialogue. What only surprised me, Howard said: you have to look. I wonder: look at what. We look the whole day, will we become any the wiser? Maybe another kind of looking? Larry also used once this expression. Nina. 46312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Mike and Howard, Of course, we do not have to use the word abhidhamma, we can call it dhamma. Is this perhaps helpful, Howard: when seeing the word Abhidhamma do not think of a text, but rather of the teaching of realities appearing right now? Paramattha dhammas appearing right now? And yes, what is directly experienced is far more precise than any description we read about. It is subtle and precise. In this sense we can say that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time, and in the suttas he spoke to different people with different accumulations. He helped them with the right words so that they could be led to enlightenment. When I think of synopsis or outlining, I have associations with theory. To me that is not Abhidhamma. Nina. op 03-06-2005 15:40 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Hi Howard, > From: ... I see Abhidhamma as > an>> attempt to outline and synopsize the Dhamma independent of teaching > context and with primary attention to precision. 46313 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Sarah, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I "like" poundings, but I really don't mind them. The consequences at work are that I "get" to do a lot of things that everyone else dreads. C'est la vie. Sorry for the French instead of Pali there (BTW: What IS the Pali for c'est la vie?) > S: there, Howard. Someone who likes poundings!! Dan, quite possible. But > now, the recordings are 'super-edited' (snipped all long pauses, long > stories, coughs, outrageous laughter, Thai....). Anyway, listen again when > you get your i-pod (-- great on walks too. Jon's been listening to the > Thai talks this way for years) and let me know what you find. What's a "walk"? In America we drive everywhere all the time. Really, I drive a lot, but I don't walk very much unless it is with someone who'd rather be talking. For example, when I walk long distances with my 9 year old son Matt, we sometimes play cribbage. The first time, it went something like this: "Dad, let's play cribbage." "No, Matt, we have to keep moving so we can get back before dark. I don't have any cards anyway." "You don't understand. Deal yourself a random hand, and we can just play in our minds. That way we don't needs cards, and we don't need to stop walking. Make sure your hand is realistic and not TOO good." > I think the > pounding is usually pretty mutual. I quiver in anticipation....:-). I didn't realize that you enjoyed it so much that you quiver with excitement and joy! > S: :-). Thanks, Dan ....(also to Herman for your good wishes). Jon's also > leaving HK Government after 20 years with it (60 is official retirement > age for civil servants here), but he intends to keep working for a while > if he can. Best wishes to Jon, too. And keep out of trouble! A lot of those government jobs are designed to keep you out of trouble -- but some government workers are so incorrigible that they cause trouble anyway. > We'd love to meet some of you guys in the States if we find we > have more time and enough $, but that's down the road a while. Maybe New > York sometime with Nina too.... Gosh, it'd be great if you could do a west coast stop as well. Lisa and I have been in Oregon nearly two years now, and aren't there several other dsg'ers out here too (like Mike in Washington, Kom in San Francisco, etc.)? Dan 46314 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:20am Subject: The 5 Levels of Purification ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Grades of Mental Purity: Initially the Noble Learner temporarily disables the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Substitution by the Opposite' using insight: Lust is temporarily substituted by disgust, anger by friendliness, restlessness by calm, laziness by energy and doubt is substituted by certainty. Later the Noble Learner temporarily overcomes the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Suppression' by entering one-pointed absorption of concentration, which is unmixed, unpolluted & untainted by hindrances. Later the Noble Learner permanently eliminates a partial fraction of the hindrances & bindings by 'Cutting Off' at reaching path-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Magga) state. Later the Noble Learne(r)d permanently eliminates the remaining fraction of hindrances by effortless 'Calming' at reaching the fruition-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Phala) state. Finally the Noble Learned irreversibly leaves behind all mental hindrances and bindings by 'Escape' into the unconditioned & unconditional element of Nibbana, without remaining traces of neither clinging nor other fuels left... Take Home: Substitution => Suppression => Cut Off => Calming => Escape! Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46315 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi Sara, When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread (I will try to remember names next time). When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. I was not clear as to what was what from there responses. I probable should have stated that I was not looking for personal opinions or debate (unless the Theravadan abdharama is not clear). I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this group is isolated to the Theravadan version). You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana." By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan abdharama? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott <...> --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi all, > > Are you two trying to say that only nibbia is real? ... S: Who were 'you two'? I think it's a typo for nibbana. Nibbana is the only 'unconditioned' dhamma or reality. There are also 'conditioned' realities. ... > > The five aggregates of a human is real? ... S: yes, the five aggregates are real. The human is a concept. .... <...> 46316 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, nina (and Mike) - In a message dated 6/3/05 3:23:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Mike and Howard, Of course, we do not have to use the word abhidhamma, we can call it dhamma. Is this perhaps helpful, Howard: when seeing the word Abhidhamma do not think of a text, but rather of the teaching of realities appearing right now? Paramattha dhammas appearing right now? And yes, what is directly experienced is far more precise than any description we read about. It is subtle and precise. In this sense we can say that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time, and in the suttas he spoke to different people with different accumulations. He helped them with the right words so that they could be led to enlightenment. When I think of synopsis or outlining, I have associations with theory. To me that is not Abhidhamma. Nina. ============================ I have no problem with what you say here, Nina, none at all. My reticence with regard to the terminology of "Abhidhamma in the suttas" is based on my sense that when some people speak this way they have a hidden agenda that is unclear to me and worrisome. For me, the term 'Buddhadhamma' is quite good enough. The Dhamma, the *Buddha's* Dhamma, is already the highest dhamma, IMO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46317 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah and Larry) - In a message dated 6/3/05 3:25:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I liked the Sarah/ Howard dialogue. What only surprised me, Howard said: you have to look. I wonder: look at what. We look the whole day, will we become any the wiser? Maybe another kind of looking? Larry also used once this expression. Nina. ======================= Yes, a special looking. There is a saying that refers to one who looks but does not see. I am referring to a looking that enables one to truly see. Such looking requires vigorous effort, great energy, strong intention, sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of application. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46318 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Lisa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > [[[[waves at James--> I am actually an artist...hahaha]]] > > With Metta and giggles, > Lisa Thanks for your cute e-mail. It really made me smile. May we all discover the dhamma in our everyday lives (difficult jobs, moving and conflicting with bfs, horrible families, etc.) rather than thinking the dhamma is only to be found in the texts. Keep sharing your story and write to me offlist at: buddhatrue@... if you would like to be added to my personal mailing list. Take care. Metta, James 46319 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > ======================= > With metta, > Howard Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? Metta, James 46320 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/3/05 8:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Howard: > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > ======================= > With metta, > Howard Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? ====================== Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* crabby intended! When I wrote that "platitude", I meant exactly what I said: that prior to enlightenment we are all much like mechanical men, walking around like Frankenstein monsters with arms out in front of us, staring glassy-eyed, without any gleam of real intelligence. What did you *think* I meant? It was a commentary on the state of all of us! Oh, BTW, when I made that comment about robots following Sarah's mention of robots and her allegedly being infuriating (and, Sarah, I don't find either you or Jon to be infuriating, just a bit stubborn ;-), I knew nothing about the internet questionnaire. If you had previously posted about it, James, I missed it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46321 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self because it is impermanent and impersonal. Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it another way, all I see is ignorance. Larry 46322 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Is there any 'tool' ? [ was Walking Meditation ] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, and other interested members} - I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). To do a better job than before, I have no choice but to give you a long message with credible explanations and sufficient sutta references. [I am aware of the excellent Satipatthana note by Nina, and will refer to it if and when it is needed later on.] (I) Background Information on sati-sampajanna and satipatthana Pali Text Society ============= "Sampajanna [fr. sampajana, i. e. *sampajanya] = attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection. Often combined with sati, with which almost synonymous. "Sati = memory, recognition, consciousness, intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self- possession, conscience, self-consciousness. Nyanatiloka =========== "Sati = 'mindfulness', is one of the 5 spiritual faculties and powers (s. bala), one of the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga), and the 7th link of the 8-fold Path. "Satipatthana = the 4 'foundations of mindfulness', lit. 'awareness of mindfulness' (sati-upatthana), are: contemplation of body, feeling, mind and mind-objects". Nyanatiloka notes that 'satipatthana' (4 foundations of mindfulness) "are in reality not to be taken as merely separate exercises", but "as things inseparably associated with each other". Yet, he was wise enough to recognize each contemplation of the body as an "exercise". In his own words : "The contemplation of the body (kayanupassana) consists of the following exercises: mindfulness with regard to in-and-outbreathing (anapanasati), minding the 4 postures (iriyapatha), mindfulness and clarity of consciousness (satisampajanna), reflection on the 32 parts of the body (s. kayagatasati and asubha), analysis of the 4 physical elements (dhatuvavatthana), cemetery meditations (sivathika)". "Sampajanna = 'clarity of consciousness', clear comprehension. This term is frequently met with in combination with mindfulness (sati). In D. 22, M. 10 it is said: 'Clearly conscious is he in going and coming, clearly conscious in looking forward and backward, ...' ...". Nanamoli Bhikkhu: =============== "Sampajanna = full awareness; fully aware". (II) Training for establishing sati-sampajanna as expounded in the suttas From the background information in (I) it is safe to conclude that sati- sampajanna = mindful and fully aware, mindful awareness, clear comprehension, or clear awareness. It can be trained, according to the Buddha. One way to train (sikkhati) for sati-sampajanna is to be fully aware of all body movements and activities. For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with clear awareness..[endquote] It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. Beyond MN 39, mindful awareness is established through mindfulness training exercises that employ the whole spectrum of "bodies in the body" (kaye-kaya), known as mindfulness "immersed" in the body (kayagata-sati, MN 119). These exercises are also given in kayanupassana of the satipatthana in DN 22. Let me compare the two suttas on the same "exercise" given in MN 39. MN 119: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body". Tep's note : Please observe the words "mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered". They describe samatha tranquillity. DN 22: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... ... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself"." [endquote] Please make a careful note of the Buddha's wordings about the "training" to establish mindfulness in the body (kaya and kaye- kaya) in MN 119 versus DN 22. I believe that MN 119 emphasizes establishing sati-sampajanna in the body without contemplation of the ti-lakkhana, while DN 22 has both samatha and vipassana bhavana. The purpose of the samatha for establishing mindfulness in the body should not be overlooked <"any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered">. Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article #172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- sampajanna in the "training exercises". Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points clear. Tell me what you think. Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > (snipped) > > >Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are > >one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to > >develop such conditions are another. ... > >For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which > >requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness, > >concentration, and insights. ... > > (snipped) > > Is there any 'tool' described here? I don't think so. I see it as a > description of ordinary, everyday, monks' activities. And I think the > rest of the kayanupasana section can also be seen as describing > activities forming part of the life lead by different kinds of monks, > rather than actions to be deliberately undertaken for the sake of a > satipatthana 'practice'. > > That's all for this post. I hope to come back on more of your points later! > > Jon 46323 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? lbidd2 Howard: "Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-)" Hi Howard, Even after enlightenment we are more or less robots as long as we live. See below. Vism.XVIII,31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks'. Larry 46324 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/4/05 12:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Howard: "Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-)" Hi Howard, Even after enlightenment we are more or less robots as long as we live. See below. Vism.XVIII,31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks'. Larry ========================= In the sense that there is no person to be found, I agree with you. But in another sense, the sense that I intended, with complete awakening, sleep walking is done with - robotic action (and reaction) is done with. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46325 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Thank you so much for the answer to the posted question (Part 2, Section iii) and for your question. Larry: > > There seems to be a subtle vacillation between sign (rupa) and the >idea it represents. Possibly this stabilizes as one becomes more >skillful. Also, this suggests there is a closer relationship between >concept and reality than I had thought. I had previously thought a >sign is a concept, but it looks like a sign is a reality interpreted as a >concept. > What do you think? > Tep: The sign is not just a physical location where the breaths touch. When sati is established at the touch point, you will be aware of the contact (phassa) and associated sensation quite clearly. At that time "the sign" is no longer a concept anymore-- you can experience it. And all the time awareness of the in and out breaths is also present. When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "What three ideas must be known such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ?" > > Hi Tep, > > The three ideas are sign, in-breath, and out-breath. The object of jhana is sign. In this case the sign is the place where the in-breath and > out-breath brush back and forth. That is where attention should be > placed, rather than on in-breath or out-breath. There is awareness of > these two but that awareness is in the background and shouldn't be > cultivated. > > What is not mentioned is that there is a mix of sensation (rupa) and > concepts of in-breath, out-breath, and place where they brush back and forth. It occurred to me that there are three rupas that are the signs > of these three concepts. In other words, a certain rupa is interpreted > as in-breath, another rupa is interpreted as out-breath, and a third > rupa is interpreted as the place where they brush back and forth. This > gives us three signs but I think we can still say the object of jhana is > the sign where they brush back and forth because it is easiest to rest > attention there, while 'in' or 'out' movements may be conducive to > wandering mind. 46326 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 6/3/05 8:26:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard: > > Until enlightenment, we are all more or less robots! ;-) > > ======================= > > With metta, > > Howard > > Hmmm…what is this platitude supposed to mean? I thought Sarah's > message was rather cute and personable- and yet your response seems > rather crabby. Am I mistaken about something? > ====================== > Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* > crabby intended! Okay, I misread. No big deal. Maybe I felt like I needed to stick up for Sarah for a change. Her group currently is being overrun with 'meditators' and that can be quite frustrating to her and the old DSG members. She was reaching out and I saw your comment as slapping that hand reaching out. But I could be wrong and I should have just not made any comments. I must be a robot too and my psychic ability just short curcuited! ;-)). Metta, James 46327 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 10:29pm Subject: No internal Agent but just Dependence ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Who or What creates the Pain ? They asked the blessed Buddha: Is suffering created by oneself ? He answered: Not so! Is suffering created by another ? He answered: Not so! Is suffering created both by oneself & another? Not so! Is suffering created neither by oneself nor another? Not so! Suffering arise in Dependence... ! Dependent on what... ? Dependent on Contact..., do all suffering arise... Without contact it is impossible to experience any suffering! Dependent on Contact do Feeling arise. Dependent on Feeling do Craving arise. Dependent on Craving do Clinging arise. Dependent on Clinging do Becoming arise. Dependent on Becoming do Birth arise. Dependent on Birth do Decay & Death arise. Dependent on Decay & Death do Suffering arise. Note: Death here is both death of the moment & death at life's end. There is no agent nor 'doer' nor 'observer neither inside nor outside... There is this passing sequence of momentary causally dependent states. The prior mental moment conditioning the next and this the next etc... Quite impersonal is this flux. Not anything worth clinging to !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 32-43 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-06-2005 05:40 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What > I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha > dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self > nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self > because it is impermanent and impersonal. > > Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as > not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it > another way, all I see is ignorance. --------------- N: Ignorance is explained as a mental reality: We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): Moha experiences an object, the same object as the citta it accompanies, but, it does not see the true nature of the object. Moha is not an abstract entity, the Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. It refers to actualities, to what arises now. I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if there is no development of satipatthana. Lodewijk often refers to this sutta: Kindred Sayings V, 449 (Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch V, 2) the Precipice. When the Buddha was staying on Vulture's Peak he went with some monks to Splendid Spur and a monk said that there was a great and fearsome precipice. The Buddha answered: When in India, we climbed Vulture's Peak and saw some deep precipices. You wrote: Only one way to have less ignorance. We are ignorant of seeing, of vibile object, we do not see them as impermanent and non-self. The way to have more understanding which illuminates the object: being aware of seeing and visible object that arise now. At such moments understanding of their different characteristics can develop. We can learn that there are objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. The first stage of insight is discerning the difference between nama and rupa, and different namas cannot be known precisely yet. Paññaa has to be developed further. Ignorance falls away but its characteristic can be known by paññaa that arises shortly afterwards. 46329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard nilovg Hi Howard, I have no trouble with volition or effort. I am glad you mention now also other mental qualities together with volition. I would like to add something. -------------- op 03-06-2005 23:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Yes, a special looking. There is a saying that refers to one who looks > but does not see. I am referring to a looking that enables one to truly see. > Such looking requires vigorous effort, great energy, strong intention, > sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of > application. ------------- I find it so helpful to learn about all the sobhana cetasikas, wholesome mental qualities, that support one moment of kusala citta. There also have to be chanda, wish-to-do, adhimokkha, wholesome decision that is determined about kusala, confidence in kusala, and yes, right effort. There are wieldiness, adaptability, lightness, etc. These prevent rigidity of mind, and help citta to be supple and competent for kusala. To speak with Htoo, it is a whole army supporting kusala citta. Studying this helps us to see how intricate conditions are for one moment of kusala citta. Last night I could chose between relaxing with a book or a kind of bhavana: listening to the audio and copying it on my recorder. It was a little late, but it just happened that I chose the second option and I did not regret it. I learn each time when listening and considering. It was about sense-door and mind-door and how insight knowledge knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. But how difficult it is to know the mind-door. It made me realize how little I know, but this does not cause a feeling of hopelessness or helplesness. It helps truthfulness, one of the perfections we cannot do without. And we also need courage. When I was chosing between two possibilities, I did not think of volition, effort, decision, it just happened because of conditions. It is not possible to try to have kusala volition and effort right at that moment, it all happens so fast. You write: < sustained and repeated practice, and, with all that, enormous subtlety and balance of application.> Sustained and repeated practice: yes, understanding accumulates when it arises again and again. We know it is not self, it arises because of conditions, but deep in our minds? Enormous subtlety and balance of application: Paññaa is very subtle and it keeps the balance between all the sobhana cetasikas arising together with it. And now I am studying the akusala cetasikas, what a contrast! With moha there is darkness all around. But we do not know it. There is no wieldiness or adaptability. There are also volition and effort, but they lead downwards. Paññaa is very subtle and it can see when volition is kusala and when akusala. When effort is akusala and when kusala. It is a lifetask to develop paññaa. It conditions sincerity, not taking for kusala what is akusala. Nina 46330 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Howard, Good. But it is just the word 'hidden agenda'. Lodewijkk said, politicians accuse one another of this, but I am sure you do not mean this. Lodewijk said, it is time to straighten things out in person with you in New York. I believe that nobody on this list is insincere or has a hidden agenda. There are many different opinions but people are straightforward and they do not think of gaining anything for themselves like fame. Nina. op 03-06-2005 22:58 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > My reticence > with regard to the terminology of "Abhidhamma in the suttas" is based on my > sense that when some people speak this way they have a hidden agenda that is > unclear to me and worrisome. For me, the term 'Buddhadhamma' is quite good > enough. The Dhamma, the *Buddha's* Dhamma, is already the highest dhamma, IMO. 46331 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163, ignorance. nilovg Hi Larry, My letter flew out to you uncontrolled, and to be sure, here it is again. I was just adding a last sentence. op 04-06-2005 05:40 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I've been trying to see how we can see that ignorance is not self. What > I came up with is to view ignorance as either concept or paramattha > dhamma. The concept of ignorance is not self because it has no self > nature (sabhava). The paramattha dhamma that is ignorance is not self > because it is impermanent and impersonal. > > Are there other ways of going about this problem of seeing ignorance as > not self? Oddly enough, I can't see ignorance very well. Or, to put it > another way, all I see is ignorance. --------------- N: Ignorance is explained as a mental reality: We read in the Co. to the ŒAbhidhammattha Sangaha¹ (T.A. p. 58,59): Moha experiences an object, the same object as the citta it accompanies, but, it does not see the true nature of the object. Moha is not an abstract entity, the Tiika explains the manifestation of darkness (andhakaaro) as darkening that which arises. It refers to actualities, to what arises now. I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if there is no development of satipatthana. Lodewijk often refers to this sutta: Kindred Sayings V, 449 (Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch V, 2) the Precipice. When the Buddha was staying on Vulture's Peak he went with some monks to Splendid Spur and a monk said that there was a great and fearsome precipice. The Buddha answered: When in India, we climbed Vulture's Peak and saw some deep precipices. You wrote: Only one way to have less ignorance. We are ignorant of seeing, of visible object, we do not see them as impermanent and non-self. The way to have more understanding which illuminates the object: being aware of seeing and visible object that arise now. At such moments understanding of their different characteristics can develop. We can learn that there are objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. The first stage of insight is discerning the difference between nama and rupa, and different namas cannot be known precisely yet. Paññaa has to be developed further. Ignorance falls away but its characteristic can be known by paññaa that arises shortly afterwards. I was reminded by Kh Sujin that the purpose of our study of cetasikas is not just reading on and on, but to understand realities. We can gradually learn the difference between a moment of understanding and a moment of ignorance. Nina. 46332 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163, ignorance. philofillet Hi Nina, Larry and all > I was discussing moha with Lodewijk and he found it very frightening. We do > not see it, we do not know that we have it, but it has us in its grip. > We discussed that there is the sea of ignorance, and no island in sight if > there is no development of satipatthana. Ph: Yesterday I was listening to Kh Sujin and the group discussing moha. Kh Sujin kept asking "When and where?" When and where?" and of course it is always, always after a moment of seeing, always after a moment of hearing, always. It is so pervasive, so overwhelming. I think too of the sutta, buring, the way the eye is burning, forms are burning, seeing consciousness is burning with greed, hate and ignorance - but first because of all the ignorance. Frightening...hopeless....a lost cause? No, because we know the Buddha taught us because he knew that it *is* possible to develop right understanding. And I'm grateful that I'm not tripping along blissfully with false notions about it being easy to develop understanding. But it's not difficult either, because that implies a self struggling to get it. So we go on with patience, good cheer and cheerfulness...and irritation, or whatever there is. Kom (I think) wondered in this tape how moha can be known directly, because if there is moha how can there also be the panna that knows it? I thought that was a good question, but I can't remember the answer. Sorry if any of this is redundant. Because of my irritated eyes and lack of time to participate as much as I did before (I've taken on a second job) I can't read through all the posts. I will have an orgy of posting tonight, though. My fingers are trembling in anticipation! Metta, Phil 46333 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing, Below you stated that,"I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization." The main/basic practice of Buddhism (in 90% of the schools) is to discipline the Mind to refrain from evil and cultivate virtue. Because it is normal and natural for evil to arise, control is the goal (to protect the mind, body, and speech). The main/basic purpose of sitting meditation is to create a state (of mind, body, and speech) where one can become more aware of the arising and declining of both evil and virtue. CharlesD PS: When I was 17, I told one of my teachers I stop meditating because I didn't think I need it. His reply was, "Meditation is really tough, isn't it." I argued it uselessness instead. He repeated the statement. Now almost 30 years later I realize that at the time I did not understand the statement and I had only scratched the surface (of meditation). ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 22 May, 2005 01:14 Subject: [dsg] Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha Dear Tep, Sarah, and DSG members, The Buddha preached the very first doctrine to His first 5 disciples. In that teaching, He preached 'the middle way'. The middle starts with 'right understanding' or 'samma-ditthi'. In essence, it is pannindriya cetasika or panna. Understanding is so important that it comes first among 8 parted Path. When pariyatti is wrong then patipatti is wrong and there is no pativedha. When an arrow is released from a bow and it goes not to the target, the destination will be far from the target. So trigonometrically speaking, tangent theta has to be zero so that the arrow hits the target. To happen such thing, the initial understanding has to be right one. Otherwise the target will be totally missed. Right. I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization. 46334 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing, I am still trying not to go from my own experiences so: I found the book I was talking about but what I remembered is slightly different from what is in it. The book is: "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (C.1992 by the Vuddhidhamma Fund); Vuddhidhamma Fund for Study and Practice of Dhamma PO Box No. 26 Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand Tel. (02) 526-5008 The book dismisses Life to Life (the 3 life time) DO as a contamination from Hinduism. I did find other problems with the book, this time. However, the book does explain Moment to Moment DO in normal people and Arhants. It lists the links a follows: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION (p. 107) -- IGNORANCE NIBBANA - * * MENTAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONCOCTING DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * I would also recommend reading Chogyam Trungpa's "Myth of Freedom" and "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism." Both books have a chapter on the development of the Ego (I call the self). Trungpa provides a very good example of DO at work in normal people. NOW: You stated: "'Life to life' D.O. and 'moment to moment' D.O. are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking." YES you are right, the linking is the same. The links defining DO are but symbols of physical and mental processes. Each process can cause the one before or after it. However, I prefer to say that each process can be conditioned by the one before or after it, or even both. YOU ask: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O. with moment to moment events." If you can't get Trungpa's two books let me know and I will try to get the chapters on the EGO scanned in and emailed to you (let me know: dacostas@... ). I am currently working on scanning in the other book. CharlesD PS: It is interesting, I can see that I am so attached to the above 3 books that I am having a very hard time explaining DO in my own words. I guess this also means I really don't know it that well. ;-] I guess I have some work to do .. thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 23 May, 2005 11:57 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Charles D, ... 'Life to life' D.O and 'moment to moment' D.O are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking. What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events. D.O experts are away from DSG, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There are people who claim to see D.O during meditation sessions, :-)) 46335 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: dialogue Sarah and Howard philofillet Hi Nina, Howard, and all > N: When I was chosing between two possibilities, I > did not think of volition, effort, decision, it just happened because of > conditions. It is not possible to try to have kusala volition and effort > right at that moment, it all happens so fast. Ph: And it can happen a lot. It needn't be so rare that conditions lead us to wholesome behaviour (though I guess it is rare for that kusala to be accompanied by panna?) The next time we are faced with the choice, there will be remembering of the benefits of the kusala, and it is likely the moment of kusala volition will be repeated. Likely. Not to be counted on, but likely enough to do away with any discouraging talk of hopelessness etc. There are so many moments in the day of conditions causing kusala volition to arise - maybe that's what taking refuge in Dhamma is all about, gaining confidence in kusala, along with the peace of mind that comes from knowing that we needn't fret about making right or wrong decisions. If we do, it is akusala. I understand why Kh Sujin says she doesn't worry about her akusala. We have accumulated so much lobha and dosa and ignorance that there will be *lots* of akusala coming our way. The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning (and so on) with greed, hate and ignorance. The lotus grows in the muck but thanks to the true Dhamma and association with the wise we being to see more and more the truth of conditioned nama and rupa. We relax and there are conditions for kusala, and this kusala conditions more of the same. Slowly, slowly there is a gradual loosening of the roots of the defilements. Trying to tear them out by concentrated willpower is bound to fail - the roots will just clench tighter - but when we relax there is a loosening. I feel so confident about that these days. Metta, Phil 46336 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles That list was suppose to look like: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION * * --IGNORANCE NIBBANA-- MENTAL CONCOCTING KNOWLEDGE OF THE DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * 46337 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Sarah & Htoo Sarah, When Htoo stated: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events." You replied with: "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or akusala?" Htoo then replied with: "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage of the whole circle temporarily." AND "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of satipatthaana." AND "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." I have to ask and state: What is Satipatthaana? And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am off base: Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated (give rise to other events). CharlesD 46338 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Dan, Azita, Howard and all.. Dan > You say you KNOW that having expectations about when and how sati > will arise is wrong, but that you FEEL that having a conceptual > understanding first is helpful. Ph: I've had some time to think about this. And I FEEL quite confident that it is not only helpful, it is essential. The conceptual understanding is all the words contained in the tipitaka. We are worldlings who do not have the insight that penetrates the words to get at the realities beneath, yet, so we must start with the words. I ahve been hearing a lot in the recorded talks about how we must get our nose out of the book and reflect on the realities that the book is listing or describing. Jon described very nicely how rare it is that we recall that what we are reading about our realities, but that it is easier in discussion, especially with a Dhamma friend like Kh Sujin who keeps bringing us back to the realities. "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we must have that first. There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult and fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. (A bit afterwards, Kh Sujin says that knowing the process is anatta is pariyatti, so in this case it would seem that curde intellectual understanding can also be pariyatti, not only realities.) Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think about understanding realities directly before understanding them intellectually. And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) to lead us toward direct understanding. I've come to FEEL that when Kh Sujin tells us to know realities directly by their characteristics, without words, she is exercising a middle-way nudge away from the bank of intellectual clinging, for moments later in the same talk you'll hear her say "the more we read, the more we understand anatta" and other affirmations that proper intellectual understanding must precede direct knowing. It reminds me (as so much in Dhamma reminds me) of the gentle paradox of the crossing the flood sutta. (When I pressed ahead I was swept away, but when I stayed in place, I sank.) I used to think this was contradictory, but now I think these paradoxes are helpful and keep our minds flexible/elastic and with more capacity for truth. >How can grasping at a concept and > trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what > things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right > Understanding? There is a difference between grasping and soaking it in patiently. We don't have to struggle hard to get things. I listen to the same talk many times as the weeks go by and let difficult ideas roll right on by again and again. But every time I listen to a talk there might be something new that understanding is able to embrace - and then let go again. But that brief embrace conditions more understanding later. And the way things "ought to" look like is - again - in line with what was enlightened by the Buddha. For example, I wasn't actually interested in knowing more about motion, but my attention (and irritation) was caught by Kh Sujin's suggestion that Azita wouldn't know unless she knew the characteristic. I thought that there would be concise, conceptual descriptions of the ways in which the reality of motion is manifested, its characteristics, functions etc. And I thought that Kh Sujin could have shared one of them - briefly - with Azita, even as she reminded her that these were just words and the direct understanding of the characteristic was the only thing that would matter. (I thought afterwards that Kh Sujin might know the chance to discuss is rare, and that we can do our book studying at some other time, so she chooses to avoid too much citing and references) Anyways, I decided to look up motion. I checked Nina's book on Rupas, and found some helpful words. For example, when we feel pressure in our stomach after eating it would be motion. I was reminded that the four elements always rise together. In Bh Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of hundering for sait? Less likely, I think - we know better than that pretty early on, don't we? The day before yesterday I was sitting on my balcony with my morning coffee and some suttas. A mother carrying a toddler on the back of her bicycle whizzed by. The child said "I'm cold!" and PING I had a little understanding of motion. The temperature element and the motion element were there together. And then I let it go. Until now. FOr what it's worth, it was conditioned by what I read in the book about motion being "experienced as tangible pressure." Now I have a deeper understanding of what goes on when we feel cold - it is pressure (motion) as well as temperature. It will arise again, and graudaly panna will come to know whether it is valuable or not. (I like very much what Nina said once: "We heard about the Brahma- Viharas, and it is panna that sees the value of them." We *hear about* realities in conceptual language, and that is just the beginning of the complex conditioned processes by which we will understand them more deeply, or not. > A few years ago, I noted to Sarah that I thought Kh. Sujin "speaks > directly" in the sense that she relates everything to experience and > pops conceptual bubbles that the mind delights in creating. Don't be > irritated when she doesn't gratify a particular itch for > conceptualization. Ph: I still get irritated by her on occasion, but I get irritated by everyone. I have accumulations in that direction. The other day I was jogging as I listened and I got *really* irritated when Sarah was asking about immoral deeds, and Kh Sujin said that there is "no need to write them down" (ie list) them, and then suddenly said "I think we should walk now" and cut off the conversation. I shouted "no SHOULD!" which is one of her favourite lines. I have never studied Dhamma under a teacher so there are times I get irritated by the dynamics involved. But man oh man am I being helped by her, day in, day out. The moments of irritation are few and far between. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks for asking about my eyes. The terminal is now, and much bigger and brighter than our old computer. My eyelid flutters and twitches. Glasses are cheap here in Japan. I will get around to it, eventually. Foolish not too - I'm legally blind in my left eye and my right eye is weak too. 46339 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi again Ph >The moments of irritation are > few and far between. Forgot to mention that I think irritation when hearing Dhamma might be a good sign. I never felt irritated when listening/reading Thich Nhat Hahn's feelgood Dhamma, for example. True Dhamma should irritate us at times, because true dhamma goes against the way of the world, against our comforts, against our preconceptions. There is lobha which conditions the irritation when someone tries to take our pablum away from us. Metta, Phil 46340 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, Part 2 [Message # 997] Dear Friend Tep, The following is for your kind consideration. 59. - 148. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each of the 18 Principal Insights] .... [Han: you have not given the names of 18 Principal Insights. The following Pali names may be inserted with the English translation taken from your text. I do not have the English translation.] 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa 6. norodhaa-nupassanaa 7. patinissaggaa-nupassanaa 8. khaya-nupassanaa 9. vayaa-nupassanaa 10. viparinaamaa-nupassanaa 11. animittaa-nupassanaa 12. appanihitaa-nupassanaa 13. sunnataa-nupassanaa 14. adhipannaa-dhamma vipassanaa 15. yathaabhuta-naana-dassanaa 16. aadiinavaa-nupassanaa 17. patisankhaa-nupassanaa 18. vivattaa-nupassanaa ------------------------------ 172. 'Breathing in' (aana) is in-breath (assaasa); 'breathing out' (apaana) is out-breath (passaasa). [Read 'aanan ti assaaso no passaaso, apaanan ti passaaso no assaaso'. 'Assaasavasena upatthaanam sati, passasavasena upatthaanam sati'.] Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of in-breath is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established (founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in him. 173. 'Perfect' (paripunnaa): perfect in the sense of embracing (pariggaha) [jhana, insight and path]; perfect in the sense of [the mutual] equipment (parivaara) [of all ideas connected therewith]; perfect in the sense of perfection (paripuura). 174. 'Well developed' (subhaavitaa) : There are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (i) development in the sense of non-excess (anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) arisen therein (I 135), (ii) development in the sense of single function (eka rasa) of the faculties (indriya) (I 134), (iii) development in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy (tadupaga viriya), (iv) development in the sense of repetition (aasevana). These four kinds of development (bhaavanaa) in him are made the vehicle (yaanikata), made the ground (vatthukata), consolidated (anutthitaa), reinforced (paricitaa) and brought to very sameness (susamaa-raddhaa). 'Made the vehicle' (yaanikata): he has mastery, power and assurance wherever he wishes, those ideas [of serenity and insight] are ready for his adverting (aavajjana-patibaddhaa), ready to his wish (aakankha-patibaddhaa), ready to his attention (manasikaara-patibaddhaa), ready to his arising of cognizance (cittuppaada-patibaddhaa). Hence 'made the vehicle' (yaanikata) was said. ------------------------------ With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > My presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge > of cleansing' > (Group III) continues. Again, please be reminded > that words within > square brackets [ ] most of the times are > Commentary. > ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > I am grateful to all helps I have so far received from Dr. Han Tun, who is > very resourceful in handling difficult Pali words. He has the original Pali > text of the Patisambhidamagga and its Burmese and English > translations, while I have the Thai version (and limited Pali knowledge). > > Whenever Han has read my new post and given me an advice on the > Pali translation and other useful thoughts, I will post his message here > in this "Han Tun's Contribution" thread. > 46341 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable philofillet ?@?@Hi Howard and all Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. ?„I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, addresses > two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't > consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise > and are experienced. I read the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation. For me when the Buddha asks "Do you have any desire lust or affection for those forms congizable by the eye that you have not seen and never saw before, that you do not see and would not think might be seen?" he is just asking if there are still conditions for lust et al to arise. Of course, being the Buddha, he would know whether the person he was speaking to was an arahant or not. Then, in confirmation, the Buddha says "regarding things seen, heard, sensed and congnized by you: in the seen there will be mereley the seen; in the heard there will be merely the heard" etc. To me this sounds like the sutta about the arahant who sees not a beautiful woman walking by, but just the bones of her teeth. He stops at seeing. Which is, of course, something that we cannot aspire to any day soon - but it is always inspiring to read about arahants. That's the way I took this, but you have looked more deeply into it than I have and have found something more complex to probe than I found. Everyone reads suttas with different accumulations. I was interested to read that when Larry was a kid he used to think deeply about the water from a phenemonological point of view. So he was born with conditions for deep intellecutal probing. I guess you might have those conditions too. I don't probe so hard. Which is fine. Conditions. I like this phrase that is used in the BB translation: "you will not be 'by that', then you will not be 'therein'." I think this helps me appreciate how conditions ("by that") lead me into good or bad times ('therein'.) Of course the trouble/danger is not only hard times, pain etc. We are ignorant of the danger inherent in the khandas when times are good as well. More ignorant when times are good. There is only one way out of this "by that" and "therein." I hope other people will pass along suttas that they think are very valuable. Metta, Phil 46342 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:47am Subject: Characteristic of karuna - reaching out to help? philofillet Hi all I'd like to tell you a little story that has had me thinking about the characteristic of karuna. One Sunday morning a few weeks back I was walking around Tokyo as I do every week before work. I was watching some baseball games in an enclosed area of a park, then realized that I couldn't get out without going all the way back. I was in danger of being late for work so I decided to climb a fence to get out. It was one of those black cast-iron fences with the nasty spikes. I got up on top of it and paused, because there were people coming along the sidewalk on the other side and I didn't want to startle them. So I kind of perched up there on top of the fence, playing it cool, as though everything was A -Ok. In fact, I now realized that I was going to have more trouble getting down on the other side than I thought. The people came along and I perched there, faking nonchalance. There was an elderly woman, around 80 I guess, walking her dog. And when she saw me she gasped with concern, and then - amazingly - reached out her hand to offer to help me down. This is in Japan, where there is a lot of fear of foreigners, but this little old lady reached out her hand to help me, as though I wouldn't just crush her into the ground if I took her offer. That moment of reaching out to help, with no consideration of the logic of it, or the danger involved in it - it made me wonder if it was very pure karuna. (No way to know the other's citta - maybe she was a masochistic little old lady who had been fantasizing for years about being crushed by a plummeting foreigner.) So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? I remember Howard once said that he thought karuna is called for in certain situations but metta is called for in all situations - that has stuck with me. I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. Metta, Phil p.s This will be my last post for this week's Saturday night splurge. I won't be able to respond until next Saturday but I will read responses in this and other threads with interest and get back to you next week. p.p.s congratulations, Sarah, on wrapping up your business. I often think of your description of how busy you were in past years, with only time to read a little Dhamma at bedtime before you feel asleep. I think there may be conditions at work to bring that kind of productivity into my daily life...we'll see... 46343 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing I finally got the book I was talking about but was slightly disappointed. I remembered it a little differently, but it is still useful. The book is: "PATICCASAMUPPADA: PRACTICAL DEPENDENT ORIGINATION"; by Buddhadasa Bick @ 1992 by the VUDDHIDHAMMA FUND Vuddhidhamma Fund for Study and Practice of Dharma; PO Box No. 26; Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand; Tel. (02) 526-5008 Below is a list of the links presented in the book: THE TWENTY FOUR ELEMENTS OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION (p.107) * * --IGNORANCE NIBBANA-- MENTAL CONCOCTING KNOWLEDGE OF THE DELIVERANCE CONSCIOUSNESS DELIVERANCE MIND/BODY FADING AWAY SENSE BASES DISGUST CONTACT KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS ARE FEELING CONCENTRATION CRAVING HAPPINESS ATTACHMENT TRANQUILITY BECOMING RAPTURE BIRTH JOY OLD AGE, DEATH ---- SUFFERING ---- FAITH * YOU Stated/asked: "'Life to life' D.O and 'moment to moment' D.O are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking." The answer is yes. The links are really symbols of mental and physical process, so their meanings/interpretations can vary. Also the length of any of the processes can vary according to the situation. In fact the length of a process is unimportant. YOU also asked: "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events." The above book and two books by Chogyam Trungpa (i.e., "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism," and "The Myth of Freedom") offer good examples. In each of Trungpa's two books is a chapter on the Development of the Ego. These two chapters offer an excellent example of DO at work (moment to moment). If you can't get the books, and would like to see them, let me know (dacostas@... ). I am scanning the chapters on DO into my computer. YOU stated: "DO experts are away from DSG, I think." I have to say that I have been so attached to the above books that I can not seem to formulate a clear and concise presentation of this stuff in my own words (without referring back to the books). This may mean that in reality I don't understand the concept fully. ;-] I guess I still have some work to do ... Thanks YOU also stated, "There are people who claim to see DO during meditation sessions" In the Moment to Moment sense, this is not hard to do. In fact, this is what Buddhadasa book is all about -- Knowing the raisings (births) and fadings away (deaths) so that, as Trungpa puts it, you can transform/transmute them. There by enter Nibbana CharlesD PS: OK, a little from me :-) The order of the links can vary too. E.g., Contact can give rise to concocting (and memories -- rebirth) at the same "relative instant." ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 23 May, 2005 11:57 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? 46344 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga , to Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, thank you for this and other posts. No nothing redundant, always good to be reminded again, also by what you got from the audio. I love it. I also discover something new each time, amazing. Your eyes: after staring for half an hour, do something in the kitchen, like preparing the cooking. That helps. See below. op 04-06-2005 12:39 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Ph: Yesterday I was listening to Kh Sujin and the group discussing > moha. Kh Sujin kept asking "When and where?" -------------- N: This reminds us that it is not an abstract entity, it is actual, a reality now. ------------- Ph: Kom (I think) wondered in this tape how moha can be known > directly, because if there is moha how can there also be the panna > that knows it? --------- N: Lodewijk also asked this and I tried to explain to Larry. Just as in the case of seeing, which is vipaakacitta. Kusala citta with sati sampajañña can follow after it and know its characteristic. But, I hear all the time about detachment. This should be emphasized. Paññaa and detachment go together. We should not think: how can I know moha, but all dhammas that appear can be gradually known. I find this passage of the Mahaarahulovada sutta very touching: <"Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?² "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form."> Rahula thought that it was enough to know only rupa, but all dhammas contained in the five khandhas should be known. There should be no selection. Rahula had to learn that they are only elements. The Buddha said: Understanding leads to detachment. Nina. 46345 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/4/05 1:07:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Wow! Where did your psychic powers go? There was nothing *remotely* > crabby intended! Okay, I misread. No big deal. Maybe I felt like I needed to stick up for Sarah for a change. --------------------------------------- Howard: Which is always a really nice thing to see! :-) [Sticking up for folks, that is.] ---------------------------------------- Her group currently is being overrun with 'meditators' and that can be quite frustrating to her and the old DSG members. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah - disgusting insideous types, those meditators! [ : - ( There oughta be immigration laws aginst them!! ;-)) --------------------------------------- She was reaching out and I saw your comment as slapping that hand reaching out. But I could be wrong and I should have just not made any comments. I must be a robot too and my psychic ability just short curcuited! ;-)). ------------------------------------ Howard: zzzzzzzznaaap, crackle, wires burning!!!! :-) While my final robot comment was truly innocent, you *did* properly pick up on some asperity and frustration earlier in the post and in a couple recent, not entirely equanimous, posts (incuding my "wishy-washy" post to Jon) on the same topic of volitional cultivation. So, yours was only a minor hardware glitch, I'd say. ----------------------------------- Metta, James ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristic of karuna - to Phil nilovg Hi Phil, op 04-06-2005 15:47 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to > do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? ------- N: When helping there can be alternately karuna and metta. Hard to pinpoint. When you see someone suffering there may be karuna, but only direct understanding can know precisely different moments. --------- Ph: I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single > time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I > think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. ---------- N: We discussed this with Kh Sujin and Ivan. When there is something you did not expect you may be overwhelmed. Kh Sujin said: we are a salad of feelings. Such a mixture. The same can happen when hearing beautiful music. Only the person himself can know, by direct understanding. We can reason that there are too many emotions to take in and tears come up. But we shall not know by reasoning. It is best to let it go and be ready for whatever appears next. Otherwise we cling to our experiences. Clinging always hinders, as we hear a lot these days. Nina. 46347 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/4/05 5:04:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Good. But it is just the word 'hidden agenda'. Lodewijkk said, politicians accuse one another of this, but I am sure you do not mean this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't mean "hidden agenda" in the sense of some sort of plot! ;-)) The phrase is misleading and too strong, because of its connotation.. What I had in mind was more along the lines of an unconscious or semiconscious motivation, arising out of a deep devotion to Abhidhamma (as a teaching, Nina, not just as direct knowing of reality), to promote the Abhidhamma Pitaka as superior to the Sutta Pitaka - to make even the *word* 'Abhidhamma' take priority over 'Dhamma'. I would have less concern about such a promoting were it being done with full awareness, but I see it, as I wrote, as somewhat "hidden" (even to the "promoters" themselves). Imagine, if you will, devoted meditators on a list who have the (wrong) idea that formal meditation is virtually the whole of the Dhamma [and there are *many* such folks], that it takes priority over all the rest, and that a regular meditation practice makes all else unimportant or even dispensable and just "an expression of self," and imagine that to a large extent such promoting of meditation over all else were done without full conscious awareness of doing so. Would that not be a problem? I hope this analogy clarifies my point a bit. -------------------------------------------------- Lodewijk said, it is time to straighten things out in person with you in New York. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- I believe that nobody on this list is insincere or has a hidden agenda. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe as well that there is no insincerity here whatsoever! I retract the phrase 'hidden agenda' - it was a very poor choice! I hope my explanations above clarified my intention. --------------------------------------------------- There are many different opinions but people are straightforward and they do not think of gaining anything for themselves like fame -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Fame? Of course not! Nina, one thing I have thought all along about the DSG folks, and which hasn't altered in the slightest, is that they are good, kind, and sincere people, and very much good friends! DSG has been and remains overwhelmingly my primary Buddhist email group. No other comes remotely close. And I would not remain anywhere that I viewed the core folks as anything other than good and sincere people. My comments expressed concern with regard to a view towards the Dhamma and towards Dhamma practice that I consider harmful to the Dhamma. I wish I had taken more time in formulating those comments in a more careful and equanimous way. For not doing so, I apologize. In particular, I should not have given any impression of there being anything less than an innocence of intention on the part of anyone here! (I truly believe that there is nothing but innocent intention here!) ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46348 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does stuff happen? philofillet Hi all >?Ethe list > is run by two Robots!!. So with all that robotic conditioning, Howard, > you'll understand why we're so infuriating at times - don't blame us:- I found out I am a schoolyard bully, which I find strangely thrilling. Extroversion plus intuition plus brutality plus humility hiding insecurity. Quite accurate. The brutality was surprising, but I think it came mostly from an honest answer to a certain question. ("Have you ever killed a man with your bare hands?" haha no - actually it was... well, I told James off-list what it was but I will stop there. (oooh, now you really want to know....) In Dhamma terms, this test reminded me of SN 22.35 which says "if one has an underlying tendency towards something, then one is reckoned in terms of it." We know that there is no self, and that the khandas are rising and falling away, but this sutta reminds us that there are accumulated tendencies which give a sense of permanence to character. We should be aware of paying too much attention to this character, I think, because it is just one of countless characters that we have had and will have as we move along through samsara. And of course, even within one lifetime, people change - sometimes. Metta, Phil 46349 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/4/05 9:24:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard and all Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. ======================= Thanks, Phil, for your comments and interpretation. I agree that there are frequently several plausible alternative ways of interpreting a given sutta. Perhaps, it occurs to me, more than one interpretation is correct, with there being a multi-layer complexity of meaning in the Buddha's suttas that goes far beyond what we tend to glimpse. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46350 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:16am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon {Attn. Everyone who is interested in meditation.} - I want to comment on your message # 46281 which cites an exception, a "non-activity" within the first group of Satipatthana (the 4 foundations). Also, I want to discuss your comment on "no special activities" for the other 3 foundations (which you called anupassanas). This post is intended to be a continuation of my earlier-posted message # 46322. I expect it to be my last attempt to discuss this topic of "special activities" in detail with you. Of course, my communication door is always open, and so any dialogue between us will continue -- as usual, but it will be of a much lesser intensity. Jon: I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. Jon: Now reflection on the dhatus: "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and can take place at any time, I think. Tep: Okay, Jon. But, instead of getting entangled in the details about the modes of materiality, let me first say what I think 'activity' means. According to the English-Pali Dictionary (Metta Net, Sri Lanka), activity : (m.) ussaaha; uyyoga; aatappa; viriyaarambha. You probably recall the Pali 'aatappa' which means ardour, zeal, exertion. And exertion is what 'viriyaarambha' is about -- it can be bodily or mentally. In the Satipatthana sutta the 3 magic words 'atapi sampajanno satima' accompany all four foundations. With regard to 'atapi', the Commentator explains as follows: "..because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa)". Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. Jon: First, the modes of deportment: "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a specific practice for developing mindfulness. Tep: Frankly, I don't understand how "mindfulness *while* going, standing, etc." can develop mindfulness! It is vague at best. I see that you are using the Commentator's words without your own thinking. You are also making a grave mistake by ignoring the Buddha's words in the sutta and, instead, choose to follow the commentator's words! In order to encourage you to think let me ask you this: What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and how would you develop mindfulness your way? HINT: The following Commentary is very useful for understanding that "the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana]" is a meditation through which the meditator obtains "quietude" (or samatha) through mindfulness(sati), while insight is obtained by "clear comprehension" (sampajanna). Therefore, you must have a well-defined object of sati to begin with. By the way, Jon, do not mix up sati with satipatthana, though. Comy. "In the passage beginning with 'ardent,' Right Exertion [sammappadhana] is stated by energy [atapa]; the subject of meditation proper in all circumstances [sabbatthika kammatthana] or the means of protecting the subject of meditation [kammatthana pariharana upaya], is stated by mindfulness and clear comprehension [sati sampajanna]; or the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; and the fruit of inner culture [bhavana phala] through the overcoming of covetousness and grief [abhijjha domanassa vinaya]. [endquote] Jon: For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. Tep: If you have carefully studied my above explanations, you probably have found out that your view has been wrong and why. Reread the Comy. again and again : " ..the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension.." Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. Yours truly, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > > I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on > kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. > > First, the modes of deportment: > "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he > understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he > understands it. > > In this one the wording suggests to me mindfulness *while* going, > standing, etc., rather than undertaking walking, standing, etc. as a > specific practice for developing mindfulness. > > I cannot see any specific bodily activity referred to here. This kind > of reflection is independent of any particular speech or actions, and > can take place at any time, I think. > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special > activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 > anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. > > Jon 46351 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristic of karuna - reaching out to help? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - What a beautiful story, Phil. And beautifully related. Nothing I have experienced brings more pleasure to me than witnessing beings (people, usually ;-) expressing genuine love and compassion, except perhaps the joy arising from a genuine outpouring of love and compassion in myself. It makes life worth living. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/4/05 9:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all I'd like to tell you a little story that has had me thinking about the characteristic of karuna. One Sunday morning a few weeks back I was walking around Tokyo as I do every week before work. I was watching some baseball games in an enclosed area of a park, then realized that I couldn't get out without going all the way back. I was in danger of being late for work so I decided to climb a fence to get out. It was one of those black cast-iron fences with the nasty spikes. I got up on top of it and paused, because there were people coming along the sidewalk on the other side and I didn't want to startle them. So I kind of perched up there on top of the fence, playing it cool, as though everything was A -Ok. In fact, I now realized that I was going to have more trouble getting down on the other side than I thought. The people came along and I perched there, faking nonchalance. There was an elderly woman, around 80 I guess, walking her dog. And when she saw me she gasped with concern, and then - amazingly - reached out her hand to offer to help me down. This is in Japan, where there is a lot of fear of foreigners, but this little old lady reached out her hand to help me, as though I wouldn't just crush her into the ground if I took her offer. That moment of reaching out to help, with no consideration of the logic of it, or the danger involved in it - it made me wonder if it was very pure karuna. (No way to know the other's citta - maybe she was a masochistic little old lady who had been fantasizing for years about being crushed by a plummeting foreigner.) So do you think that the characteristic of karuna has something to do with reaching out to help, and metta is less focussed good will? I remember Howard once said that he thought karuna is called for in certain situations but metta is called for in all situations - that has stuck with me. I also wonder why tears come to my eyes invariably - every single time - when I think of the kindness of that woman reaching out. I think of tears being akusala, but I'm not sure about these tears. Metta, Phil /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46352 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/4/05 11:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. ========================= Had I been more tactful, I might have chosen the far more generous words 'steadfast' and 'intransigent' instead! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46353 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Howard (and Jon, James) - Howard: > Had I been more tactful, I might have chosen the far more generous > words 'steadfast' and 'intransigent' instead! ;-) > I like 'intransigent' better -- it means "refusing to yield or compromise", while 'steadfast' simply means "unwavering, faithful" or "firmly fixed". BTW: I appreciate your reply to my questions in the "Useful Sutta" thread. I have a Thai translation of this sutta to compare withThanissaro's translation, and it is clear to me that his translation of the key paragraph was not clear enough. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation was nearly the same as the Thai translation, except for one thing, and I have a plan to translate that key part of the Thai version into English for comparison with both Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's -- hoping that we may learn something useful. The translation has not yet started, though. That's why I have not reponded to your message so far. Please accept my apology. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 6/4/05 11:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Howard has said repeatedly that Jon is very stubborn. Tep has not > said so yet, eventhough he is strongly inclining to think so. 46354 From: connie Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 9:05am Subject: Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution nichiconn Hi, Tep, Just some notes on the 10th of the 16 kinds of (sequential) knowledge taken from Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification & the Insight Knowledges". peace, connie 10. pa.tisankhaanupassanaa~naa.na (knowledge of contemplation of reflection or reflective insight) - '18 principal insights'* & 40 modes of reflection across tilakkhana disperse defilements by substitution of opposites. "Whatever there is to be done to win deliverance from existence, all that I will do." *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: Anicca: 1, 6, 8-11, 14 Dukkha: 2,4,5,12,16 Anatta: 3,7,13,15,17,18 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping 8. khayaanupassanaa - (destruction) ab's perception of compactness 9. vayaanupassanaa - (passing away) ab's accumulation (of kamma) 10. vipari.naamaa-n. - (change) ab's percptn of stability 11. animittaa-n. - (signless) ab's the sign 12. appa.nihitaanupassanaa - (desireless) ab's desire 13. su~n~nataatnupassanaa - (voidness) ab's adherence (to notion of self) 14. adhipa~n~naa-vipassanaa - (higher wisdom of insight into phenomena) ab's adherence due to grasping at a core 15. yathaabhuuta-~naa.nadassana - (correct kn. & vision) ab's adherence due to confusion 16. aadinavaanupassanaa - (danger) abandons adherence due to attachment 17. pat.isankhaa-nupassanaa - (reflection) ab's non-reflection 18. viva.t.taa-nupassanaa - (turning away) ab's adherence due to bondage 46355 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/4/05 12:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: BTW: I appreciate your reply to my questions in the "Useful Sutta" thread. I have a Thai translation of this sutta to compare withThanissaro's translation, and it is clear to me that his translation of the key paragraph was not clear enough. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation was nearly the same as the Thai translation, except for one thing, and I have a plan to translate that key part of the Thai version into English for comparison with both Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's -- hoping that we may learn something useful. The translation has not yet started, though. That's why I have not reponded to your message so far. Please accept my apology. ---------------------------------- Howard: Certainly no apology needed! ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46356 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:43am Subject: Who is Strong? upasaka_howard Hi, all - A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": "Who is strong?" "He who controls his passions" This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must take to heart. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46357 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 10:40am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "The sign is not just a physical location where the breaths touch. When sati is established at the touch point, you will be aware of the contact (phassa) and associated sensation quite clearly. At that time "the sign" is no longer a concept anymore-- you can experience it. And all the time awareness of the in and out breaths is also present. When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction." Hi Tep, I agree the sign is not a physical location. The sign is the consciousness of a rupa that is interpreted as a physical location. To expand on this a little, this is not just one rupa, but many various rupas taken as one. First, it is a group (kalapa) composed of hardness (earth), pressure (air/wind), temperature (fire), cohesion (water), and limits (space). These arise as separate objects of consciousness over time and accumulate, mentally, into an identifiable object, the tip of the nostrils or space just above the lips that is experienced as a somewhat compact whole. This is a physical experience but it is married to a concept. I'm not sure how this would change into a counterpart sign. Also included here as possible objects of consciousness are the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment. The breaths are consciousnesses of rupas interpreted as breaths and these rupas include the above without life and body door, but possibly including sound and possibly lightness, malleability, and wieldiness. All these "breath" rupas are experienced in conjunction with the above rupas associated with the body door and other body door rupas. Every one of these rupas is potentially a sign of a greater phenomenon (concept) if cognized and interpreted that way. Or, they could simply be experienced as they arise with understanding but without further elaboration. I like this line, good point: Tep: "When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that there is no distraction." Larry 46358 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and Phil and others - My translation of the Thai version of SN XXXV.95, Malunkyaputta Sutta, is shown below for comparison purpose. Thanissaro's Translation: ------------------------------------- (I) "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" (II) "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Bodhi's Translation: --------------------- (I) "Do you have any desire lust or affection for those forms cognizable by the eye that you have not seen and never saw before, that you do not see and would not think might be seen?" Phil, could you please give me Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation for (II)? The Thai Version: ------------------ (I) "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that you no longer see, that you have never seen before, that you don't see right now, and that you are not aware that 'I am seeing' : Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" (II) "In all the dhammas, when there will be just seeing in reference to the seen, just hearing in reference to the heard, just sensing in reference to the sensed, only cognizing in reference to the cognized, then, in that moment you will not be soaked by desire(raga), attacked by aversion(dosa), or deluded by delusion(moha). When there are no no desire, aversion or delusion, then, in that moment you will not cling to the seen, the heard, the sensed, and the cognized. Malunkyaputta, then you are neither here nor in any world yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Howard's summary --------------------------- The foregoing pertains to dhammas "cognizable via a sense door that are unobserved by one that one has never before observed, that one doesn't observe, and that are not to be observed by one, and for these there is no desire or passion or love there". Howard's Analysis --------------------------- I) Since the dhammas are *not* experienced (and may well not have occurred at all, but just be *able* to be cognized *were* conditions for their arising or observation in place). It is the realm of such non-occurring or at least unobserved phenomena that I referred to as the non-occurring realm. II) Maintaining mindfulness is the means of avoiding getting hooked by contacts via any of the sense doors. In the seen there shall just be the seen - there being nothing substantial and knowable that underlies the phenomenal object, and no self to be found underlying the knowing. Tep: I appreciate your precise understanding that underlies the above analysis. The difficulty is seen in successful implementation in the present moment. What do you think of the Thai version? (Anyone, please?) Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Howard and all > > Thanks for pointing out this sutta. I found it helpful too, though I > must say I didn't find as much complexity in it as you did. > >I think that there is great value in this sutta, which,as I see it, > addresses two domains: Those phenomena that due to lack of requisite conditions don't consciously register or even don't arise at all, and those phenomena that do arise and are experienced. > (snipped) > > I hope other people will pass along suttas that they think are very > valuable. > > Metta, > Phil 46359 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:15am Subject: Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Connie - Thank you for the contribution to the Breathing Treatise series. Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's English translation of the 18 Principal Insights is a good one. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, Tep, > Just some notes on the 10th of the 16 kinds of (sequential) knowledge > taken from Ven. Matara Sri Namarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification & > the Insight Knowledges". > peace, > connie > > 10. pa.tisankhaanupassanaa~naa.na (knowledge of contemplation of > reflection or reflective insight) - '18 principal insights'* & 40 modes of > reflection across tilakkhana disperse defilements by substitution of > opposites. "Whatever there is to be done to win deliverance from > existence, all that I will do." > > *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: > Anicca: 1, 6, 8-11, 14 > Dukkha: 2,4,5,12,16 > Anatta: 3,7,13,15,17,18 > 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence > 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure > 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self > 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting > 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust > 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating > 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping > 8. khayaanupassanaa - (destruction) ab's perception of compactness > 9. vayaanupassanaa - (passing away) ab's accumulation (of kamma) > 10. vipari.naamaa-n. - (change) ab's percptn of stability > 11. animittaa-n. - (signless) ab's the sign > 12. appa.nihitaanupassanaa - (desireless) ab's desire > 13. su~n~nataatnupassanaa - (voidness) ab's adherence (to notion of self) > 14. adhipa~n~naa-vipassanaa - (higher wisdom of insight into phenomena) > ab's adherence due to grasping at a core > 15. yathaabhuuta-~naa.nadassana - (correct kn. & vision) ab's adherence > due to confusion > 16. aadinavaanupassanaa - (danger) abandons adherence due to attachment > 17. pat.isankhaa-nupassanaa - (reflection) ab's non-reflection > 18. viva.t.taa-nupassanaa - (turning away) ab's adherence due to bondage 46360 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:29am Subject: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi All, During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. From Nibbana.com: Asannasatta Brahmas Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. http://www.nibbana.com/ James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings without minds. Any answers, anyone? Metta, James 46361 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for the prompt reply. Larry: > > The breaths are consciousnesses of rupas interpreted as breaths and these rupas include the above without life and body door, but > possibly including sound and possibly lightness, malleability, and > wieldiness. All these "breath" rupas are experienced in conjunction > with the above rupas associated with the body door and other body door rupas. > > Every one of these rupas is potentially a sign of a greater > phenomenon (concept) if cognized and interpreted that way. Or, they could simply be experienced as they arise with understanding but > without further elaboration. > Tep: My limited experience of the consciousness of rupas ("breaths") involves only a few items in the long list you have given. Some of the items, e.g. cohesion(water), limits (space), the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment, are very much "theoretical" to me now. How are they experienced and during which steps (grounds, vatthu) of the Anapanasati meditation do they arise? The mentioning that these rupas may " change into a counterpart sign" is very interesting. Can you give some more clues? Did you get the idea from reading or from your own experience? Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I agree the sign is not a physical location. The sign is the > consciousness of a rupa that is interpreted as a physical location. > To expand on this a little, this is not just one rupa, but many > various rupas taken as one. First, it is a group (kalapa) composed of > hardness (earth), pressure (air/wind), temperature (fire), cohesion > (water), and limits (space). These arise as separate objects of > consciousness over time and accumulate, mentally, into an > identifiable object, the tip of the nostrils or space just above the > lips that is experienced as a somewhat compact whole. This is a > physical experience but it is married to a concept. I'm not sure how > this would change into a counterpart sign. Also included here as > possible objects of consciousness are the life rupa, the body door > rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment. > I like this line, good point: > > Tep: "When you know that the three "ideas" are not the objects of a > single citta (but a continuity of awareness), then you know that > there is no distraction." > > > > Larry 46362 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Golden Statues? upasaka_howard Hi, James - Just a couple thoughts occurred to me about this matter which I will insert in context below. In a message dated 6/4/05 2:29:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi All, During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. From Nibbana.com: Asannasatta Brahmas Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. http://www.nibbana.com/ ----------------------------------------- Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. --------------------------------------- James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? --------------------------------------- Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. -------------------------------------- I can imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings without minds. Any answers, anyone? ------------------------------------ Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? ----------------------------------- Metta, James ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46363 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution nilovg Dear Tep, please thank han tun. It is very good he gives the Pali. Does he also have the Commentary? Nina. op 04-06-2005 14:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, > Part 2 [Message # 997] > 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa > 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa > 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 46364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context nilovg Hi Howard, Yes, you clarified it all right. I had an idea that you meant something else with this phrase, since you are among the kindest people around here. Nina. op 04-06-2005 16:56 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I believe as well that there is no insincerity here whatsoever! I retract > the phrase 'hidden agenda' - it was a very poor choice! I hope my > explanations above clarified my intention. 46365 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Following the Howard's tradition, today I have two valuable suttas to recommend. (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html (2) There are some among us who promote listening to and considering the Dhamma a lot without even 10 minutes a day for meditation. Well, according to the Buddha , you do not "dwell in the Dhamma" if you neglect seclusion and do not "commit" yourselves to "internal tranquility of awareness". Read on ! "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". Anguttara Nikaya V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Yours truly, Tep ========= 46366 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/4/05 5:23:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, all - Following the Howard's tradition, today I have two valuable suttas to recommend. (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html (2) There are some among us who promote listening to and considering the Dhamma a lot without even 10 minutes a day for meditation. Well, according to the Buddha , you do not "dwell in the Dhamma" if you neglect seclusion and do not "commit" yourselves to "internal tranquility of awareness". Read on ! "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". Anguttara Nikaya V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Yours truly, Tep ============================= I'm quite familiar with this sutta. There was a group, an offshoot of the Sarvastivadins I think, a few hundred years after the Buddha who took this a basis for a heretical self-view. I think that the author of the Katthavatthu may have discussed this. The "person" of this sutta is the conventional person, and no one denies such usage. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46367 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! dacostacharles Hi all, Sorry for missing this. The point I was tiring to make was about definitions, those during the Buddha's time compared with those of the today. E.g. in the Buddha's day the soul was considered to be a being's eternal unchanging essence, and it got reincarnated from life to life. The Buddha argued against its existence because it could not be found via the six senses. Today this definition is only partially common. CharlesD From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 25 May, 2005 00:58 Subject: [dsg] Re: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth!arguments were based on the observat ----- Original Message ----- Hi Charles {Attn.: Htoo, Sarah } - I have a thought while reading your remarks on Anatta (from Anattalakkhana Sutta, SN XXII.59). CharlesD : The problem with this suttra, and most like it, is that it assumes that if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being. Those that believe in a soul do not believe the soul has such, they tend to view the soul the same way that some Buddhist view re-birth-consciousness. Tep: I am not so sure that the Buddha said in SN XXII.59 that "if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being", Charles. This is what He said about the form (rupa): "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' " The same Truth applies to the other 4 aggregates within the pancakkhandha. 46368 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self dacostacharles Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) , according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46369 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 lbidd2 Tep: "My limited experience of the consciousness of rupas ("breaths") involves only a few items in the long list you have given. Some of the items, e.g. cohesion(water), limits (space), the life rupa, the body door rupa, visible data, smell, taste, and nutriment, are very much "theoretical" to me now. How are they experienced and during which steps (grounds, vatthu) of the Anapanasati meditation do they arise? The mentioning that these rupas may " change into a counterpart sign" is very interesting. Can you give some more clues? Did you get the idea from reading or from your own experience?" Hi Tep, I'm sure you have experienced all these rupas, if only vaguely, and you could, if you applied yourself, locate them in breathing. They are, after all, what breathing is all about. But I agree there is no direct reference to them in this treatise on breathing. This kind of analysis is the same as discriminating between sign, in-breath, and out-breath, only with more detail. And it explores, a little, the relationship between concept and reality as it manifests in mindfulness of breathing. My uncertainty on the counterpart sign comes from the Visuddhimagga. In jhana practise, the counterpart sign arises with access concentration and is an ideal perception without the characteristics of rise and fall or individuating characteristics such as long and short. Before that there is only the learning sign which is cognized with 5-door consciousness. I think that is what this treatise is talking about, but maybe the precise point where the saw touches the log, so to speak, and in and out disappear could be idealized into a counterpart sign and momentary access concentration could arise. Not sure. Larry 46370 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Vism.XIV,164 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 164. (xli) By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is 'wrong view'. Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. Its function is to preassume. It is manifested as wrong interpreting. Its proximate cause is unwillingness to see noble ones, and so on. It should be regarded as the most reprehensible of all. 46371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I forwarded your email to Han Tun this morning, asking him to reply directly to you. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > please thank han tun. It is very good he gives the Pali. > Does he also have the Commentary? > Nina. > op 04-06-2005 14:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > From: han tun > > Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am > > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, > > Part 2 [Message # 997] > > > 1. aniccaa-nupassanaa > > 2. dukkhaa-nupassanaa > > 3. anattaa-nupassanaa 46372 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that > has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. > From Nibbana.com: > > Asannasatta Brahmas > Asannasatta Brahmas are those divine beings without any > consciousness or mind. As human beings they find faults of citta > (mind) and sanna (memory). They think that all forms of greed arise > because of citta. They also think that life would be so peaceful had > there been no citta. While concentrating on the fault of > consciousness, "Citta is loathsome. Citta is loathsome", they develop > a kammatthana called sannaviraga-bhavana (disgust for sanna). > When they die they are reborn as Brahmas in the Asannasatta > Brahma realm and live like golden statues, standing, sitting or > reclining, without consciousness. Their life-span is 500 kappas long. > http://www.nibbana.com/ > > James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist > texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's > next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness > whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can > imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings > without minds. Any answers, anyone? > > Metta, > James Dear james, Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in another plane where citta arises again. Robertk 46373 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi Howard, Thanks for the response. I have a few more comments: Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. James: Yes, that's true, but 500 kappas is still a very long time to be existing without a mind. Without a mind there would be no clinging and desire, etc. so I still wonder what is present holding the body together. The Buddha described mind and form as like reeds leaning on each other for support, without a mind the body should break down into the four elements. Very odd. Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. James: I can understand and accept how kamma could kick-start the being's new existence, but that doesn't answer for me where the citta is in the meantime. The citta is supposed to be missing! Where did it go? I recall a sutta where Mara is searching about the recently dead body of a monk looking for the unestablished consciousness and the Buddha said the consciousness couldn't be found because it had been released into final nibbana; therefore, consciousnesses don't just go disappearing and reappearing in samsara. Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) James: Yes, I have been under deep anesthesia for surgery. I don't have a hard time imagining what it would be like for this type of being- it would be like nothing. I guess it would be like Rip Van Winkle: One second you are there and the next second it is 500 kalpas later! ;-)) What I have difficulty with is the idea of a body without a consciousness existing for that amount of time. Howard: By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? James: Yes. I have long maintained that final nibbana could not be annihilation. But that is a different can of worms. ;-) Metta, James 46374 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:31pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? buddhatrue Hi Robert K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear james, > Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as > asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the > kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in > another plane where citta arises again. > Robertk The description I quoted stated that the consciousness (citta) was gone; are you maintaining that this material is wrong? That the citta is merely suppressed? What does it mean for the citta to be suppressed? Metta, James 46375 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: Golden Statues? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear james, > > Citta does not have the conditions to arise during that period as > > asannatta Brahmas. But it is only suppressed and as soon as the > > kamma that conditioned that life is completed they are reborn in > > another plane where citta arises again. > > Robertk > > The description I quoted stated that the consciousness (citta) was > gone; are you maintaining that this material is wrong? That the citta > is merely suppressed? What does it mean for the citta to be suppressed? > > Metta, > James Dear James, I said it does not arise, thus it is not there at all for that period. But it is entirely different from khandha paribnibbana where there are no conditions for consciousness to ever arise again. For us in the human plane now citta arises for an instant and then is completely gone. However, another citta immediately rearises because there are conditions for this to happen. Even when we are unconscious or just an embryo in the womb citta keeps arising and passing. It is different in the asannatta plane. No conditions for citta to arise. Robertk 46376 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very important issue. In an earlier post you had said: "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention?" Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. As I said in my previous reply, in my view, directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. You also said: "How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought?" Again, this can be done, but it is clearly not the same thing as awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which in this case would be the dhamma(s) that is/are 'lost in thought' (i.e., consciousness accompanied by lobha and/or moha with thoughts as object). The idea, which I think is implicit in your comment, that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. Now for the comments in your latest post. upasaka@... wrote: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same >as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes >down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis >voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist >"practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it >harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so >wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) > > You mention volitional action, and I believe this is key to your view of what 'Buddhist practice' is all about (and of course it goes hand in hand with the idea discussed above that insight is more likely to arise when the preceding consciousness is kusala). As I recall, however, you have in the past acknowledged that kusala, including insight, *can* arise without the undertaking of any kind of volitional action immediately before that arising. That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. Now this is not the same as saying that the arising of kusala is 'random' or 'determined'. No kusala can arise unless the conditions for its arising have been developed in the past (and in addition other necessary conditions are present). But the actual moment of its arising may or may not be preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. If that is so, then we should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Jon 46377 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James Thanks for a restrained (in James terms) response to my post which I'm sure you would have found provocative in parts. It's good to be able to follow a dialogue along with you ;-)) buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Jon: I was asking you to consider whether there is any real difference >between the 2 views, (a) that a particular action is necessary for the >arising of insight, and (b) that certain actions are more conducive to >the arising of insight. It seems to me that there is no essential >difference, and that if (a) is belief in rituals then so is (b). > >James: Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word >`conducive'. From dictionary.com: "conducive adj : tending to bring >about; being partly responsible for". Therefore, `necessary' and >`conducive' are two entirely different meanings. There is no >reasonable explanation as to why you can't see the difference between >the two meanings. Consider the matter more deeply and get back to me >if you wish. > > Let me explain what I had in mind. The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that action with the idea that insight will result or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. >Jon: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness >of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep >reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 >sections (feeling,consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be >'practised'? > >James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a >bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I >aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand >aspirations! ;-) > I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this lifetime). However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to hear more on your thinking about this. >Jon: As regards the section on kayanupassana, let's not forget that it >is just 1 of the 4 sections, and that the 'one way' spoken of in the >sutta must include development under all 4 sections (even in the case >of mindfulness of breathing). > >James: Hmmm…you're going to hang quite a lot on that `one way' >translation/interpretation of the introduction, even though there are >many disagreements, aren't you? Well, I'm not going to touch that. >Think what you wish. > > Well I didn't realise this was a controversial area. If it's too hot, we can drop it. Jon 46378 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there any 'tool' ? [ was Walking Meditation ] jonoabb Hi Tep Many thanks for this post. I can see that a lot of care and attention has gone into it. I think the crux of the issue is contained in your comments on the passage from MN 39 (Maha-Assapura Sutta, Greater Discourse at Assapura), so I will go straight to that part. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with clear awareness..[endquote] It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, can be read in either of those 2 ways. I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, <>, and the list of activities that follows as being an elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is preferred. But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? Jon PS Thanks for the many quotes and citations in your post. I think we are both interested in the same suttas, but our difference is one of interpretation. Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, >and other interested members} - > > >I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main >question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: >i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for >development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon >already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it >is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based >on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). >... > >Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using >in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article >#172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath >is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of >out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established >(founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in >him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to >train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using >body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- >sampajanna in the "training exercises". > >Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points >clear. Tell me what you think. > > >Respectfully yours, > > > >Tep > > 46379 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:06am Subject: Clinging => Becoming => Birth ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Evan Stamatopoulos & friends: Thanx for these good & exact questions! >1: How is becoming caused by clinging ? >and >2: How do becoming cause birth? _Regarding clinging => becoming:_ Becoming is the process of new arisings of discrete conscious moments. Every conscious moment is conditioned by the prior conscious moment... What property in the prior conscious moment causes the next to arise ? Clinging is the answer ! Clinging propagates the arising of a new state ! Clinging to what ? Clinging to be able to sense, Clinging to the idea of a 'same lasting personality: Me, I...' Clinging to having a body (internal form), Clinging to the forms of the external world, Clinging to be able to feel, Clinging to be able to experience, Clinging to be able to act, speak & think, Clinging to _being Conscious... _Clinging to various views, Clinging to rules & rituals... When no such clinging is present in the present conscious moment, no new conscious moment will arise nor become established on any object. The process of becoming is hereby stopped. This itself is Nibbana...!!! _How do becoming cause birth? _What is birth but the arising of a new conscious moment, yet now established in a new form, in a new body... If in the moment of death any of these above mentioned Clingings is present, then they will enforce & propagate - as fuel do fire - a new emergence of a conscious moment: This is the momentary 'birth' of a new momentary mental state! In analogy of the wave/particle duality of matter & light, consciousness will here attain it's non-local = global = wave characteristics and (quantum) jump into a 'form-embedding' fittings it's other kammic properties. Name-&-Form is here joined & fused! So the process is almost the same from moment to moment in this life and from moment to moment in between lives... We are thus 'reborn' in every moment so to speak, which naturally completely excludes any 'identical identity' remaining in existence, neither here nor there ... Its just a noisy flux of moments passing by ... : - ] Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. 46380 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:08am Subject: The Proximate Cause of Nibbana ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Transcendence from Ignorance to Nibbâna!!!: Ignorance is the proximate cause of mental construction. Mental construction is the proximate cause of consciousness. Consciousness is the proximate cause of name-&-form. Name-&-form is the proximate cause of the 6 senses. The 6 senses is the proximate cause of contact. Contact is the proximate cause of feeling. Feeling is the proximate cause of craving. Craving is the proximate cause of clinging. Clinging is the proximate cause of becoming. Becoming is the proximate cause of birth. Birth is the proximate cause of ageing, decay & death. Ageing, decay & death is the proximate cause suffering. Suffering is the proximate cause of faith. Faith is the proximate cause of elation. Elation is the proximate cause of joy. Joy is the proximate cause of calmness. Calmness is the proximate cause of happiness. Happiness is the proximate cause of concentration. Concentration is the proximate cause of seeing & knowing reality. Seeing & knowing reality is the proximate cause of disgust. Disgust is the proximate cause of disillusion. Disillusion is the proximate cause of mental release. Mental release is the proximate cause of ending all mental fermentation linked with ignorance, with becoming, & with sensing. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Freedom.. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Peace.. Ending all mental fermentation is the proximate cause of Bliss.. This - only this - is Nibbana ... __________________________________________________ Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 29-32 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46381 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Howdy, Phil, There's no doubt that reading and/or hearing dhamma are crucial to development of understanding. This is a good topic for discussion. I'm going to snip parts of your post and focus in on just a few points. Please forgive me if I miss your point by gratuitous snipping. > We are worldlings who do not have the insight that penetrates the > words to get at the realities beneath, yet, so we must start with > the words. You are absolutely right that we worldlings have not developed the penetrating insight that characterizes the enlightened, and that we rely on a framework of words and concepts before that depth of insight can be reached. But we simply do not start with the words. When Dhamma falls on ears with zero understanding, it sounds absurd and elicits stunned disbelief and dirisive laughter. For the words to make any sense or seem the least bit attractive, there must already be rudimentary understanding derived from experience. The words then help consolidate that understanding so that subsequent moments of insight may penetrate deeper because moha doesn't rush in quite so dramatically in the aftermath. > I ahve been hearing a lot in the recorded talks about how we must > get our nose out of the book and reflect on the realities that the > book is listing or describing. Jon described very nicely how rare it > is that we recall that what we are reading about our realities, but > that it is easier in discussion, especially with a Dhamma friend > like Kh Sujin who keeps bringing us back to the realities. Right. One danger of nose-in-book is that the mind so delights in building conceptual elaborations (papañca) that when left to our own devices, lobha leads us happily and obliviously into a vast thicket of theory (brahmajala). [And there are many dangers besides this.] > "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we > must have that first. I wonder...is it better to strive diligently to build conceptual frameworks that we hope will one day, by chance, be good descriptions of our understanding, or to keep the focus on reality by trying to describe our current understanding and experience of reality? I think Kh. Sujin is right to keep bringing us back to experience and providing a check against our penchant for speculative elaborations. > There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what > pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are > reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable > know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long > list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or > whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult and > fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. She's right, and I'm glad to hear it. > Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think > about understanding realities directly before understanding them > intellectually. When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual understanding", but the reality is "moha". > And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent > most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) > to lead us toward direct understanding. My goodness, Phil! You seem to have acquired a bit of an edge in the months I've been away... Two notions: 1. Until we have heard the words of the Buddha, we are totally ignorant, utterly devoid of any insight into any reality, and have no understanding of any characteristics of the mind. Then, we hear the words of the Buddha; cogitate, speculate, and proliferate in and about his conceptualizations for years and years; and then, once the conceptual scheme is well-developed enough, we are able to transcend it for a moment of direct insight into, say, the fleeting nature of citta. 2. Before we have heard the words of the Buddha, we are not totally ignorant. If we have some insight into, say, the degree to which our lives are dominated by akusala or the futility of seeking real peace, real joy through devotion to lobha, then something about the words of the Buddha may ring true. Previously, our wisdom was weak and fleeting, but the Buddha's words and conceptual schemes help put our wisdom on firmer ground, setting the foundation for deeper insight. Without the Buddha's conceptual scheme, it is not possible to develop liberating insight. However, before hearing Buddha, moha only arises 99.9990% of the time, not 100%. [NOTE: After hearing Buddha, moha might only arise 99.9989% of the time, and we'd feel enormously grateful for that 0.0001% improvement. However, it is equally likely that moha would still have a 99.9990% grip on us, or even a 99.9991% grip if we read them in the wrong way.] I'm more inclined to go with the latter, not out of disrespect for the Buddha, but because: i. I've meant so many people who have never heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper insight into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; ii. it rings more true to experience; and iii. it helps dissolve "WE-are-the-only- ones-who-know-ANYTHING" as a pillar of bigotry. > I've come to FEEL that when > Kh Sujin tells us to know realities directly by their > characteristics, without words, she is exercising a middle-way nudge > away from the bank of intellectual clinging, for moments later in > the same talk you'll hear her say "the more we read, the more we > understand anatta" and other affirmations that proper intellectual > understanding must precede direct knowing. "The more we read, the more we understand anatta" is not an affirmation that intellectual understanding must precede direct knowing. It could mean, "the more we read, the more we [intellectually] understand anatta", or "the more we read, the more our understanding of anatta is solidified," or "the more we read, the more our false notions of anatta are shattered" or "the more we read, the more we are able to see how our rudimentary direct understanding of anatta fits into the Buddha's conceptual scheme", or... > It reminds me (as so much > in Dhamma reminds me) of the gentle paradox of the crossing the > flood sutta. (When I pressed ahead I was swept away, but when I > stayed in place, I sank.) > > I used to think this was contradictory, but now I think these > paradoxes are helpful and keep our minds flexible/elastic and with > more capacity for truth. > >How can grasping at a concept and > > trying to match experience to preconceived notions of what > > things "ought" to look like condition any sort of Right > > Understanding? > > There is a difference between grasping and soaking it in > patiently. We don't have to struggle hard to get things. I listen to > the same talk many times as the weeks go by and let difficult ideas > roll right on by again and again. But every time I listen to a talk > there might be something new that understanding is able to embrace - > and then let go again. Great way to put it, Phil. As you listen to the words over and over, you have a framework on which hang understanding when it arises. When it does arise, you embrace it. > But that brief embrace conditions more > understanding later. Yup. > For example, I wasn't actually interested in knowing more about > motion, but my attention (and irritation) was caught by Kh Sujin's > suggestion that Azita wouldn't know unless she knew the > characteristic. I thought that there would be concise, conceptual > descriptions of the ways in which the reality of motion is > manifested, its characteristics, functions etc. And I thought that > Kh Sujin could have shared one of them - briefly - with Azita, even > as she reminded her that these were just words and the direct > understanding of the characteristic was the only thing that would > matter. (I thought afterwards that Kh Sujin might know the chance to > discuss is rare, and that we can do our book studying at some other > time, so she chooses to avoid too much citing and references) Kh. Sujin was speaking to Azita. Maybe she would have spoken differently to you. > Anyways, I decided to look up motion. I checked Nina's book on > Rupas, and found some helpful words. For example, when we feel > pressure in our stomach after eating it would be motion. I was > reminded that the four elements always rise together. In Bh Bodhi's > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was > helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh > Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of > conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper > understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of > hungering for sati? Less likely, I think - we know better than that > pretty early on, don't we? Or it could have planted a seed of contentment: "Ah, thanks. Now I understand motion." Or it could be that the conceptual understanding "experienced as tangible pressure" is meaningless unless it has been derived from experience. Even worse than meaningless, though, it might well plant a seed of hungering for sati. > The day before yesterday I was sitting on my balcony with my > morning coffee and some suttas. A mother carrying a toddler on the > back of her bicycle whizzed by. The child said "I'm cold!" and PING > I had a little understanding of motion. The temperature element and > the motion element were there together. And then I let it go. Until > now. FOr what it's worth, it was conditioned by what I read in the > book about motion being "experienced as tangible pressure." Now I > have a deeper understanding of what goes on when we feel cold - it > is pressure (motion) as well as temperature. It will arise again, > and graudaly panna will come to know whether it is valuable or not. Good story (meaning "I like it"). > Ph: I still get irritated by [Sujin] on occasion, but I get irritated > by everyone. I have accumulations in that direction. > > The other day I was jogging as I listened and I got *really* > irritated when Sarah was asking about immoral deeds, and Kh Sujin > said that there is "no need to write them down" (ie list) them, and > then suddenly said "I think we should walk now" and cut off the > conversation. I shouted "no SHOULD!" which is one of her favourite > lines. I have never studied Dhamma under a teacher so there are > times I get irritated by the dynamics involved. But man oh man am I > being helped by her, day in, day out. The moments of irritation are > few and far between. Like most words, "should" has different meanings. Kh. Sujin's "no SHOULD" means that making rules about how to behave "I should do this; I should not do that" is of no help whatsoever in the development of understanding. But to stay dry, one should stay out of the rain. Whether a "should" makes sense depends on the goal. > p.s Thanks for asking about my eyes. The terminal is now, and much > bigger and brighter than our old computer. My eyelid flutters and > twitches. Glasses are cheap here in Japan. I will get around to it, > eventually. Foolish not too - I'm legally blind in my left eye and > my right eye is weak too. Glasses may be cheap in Japan, but the cost to eyes of a bad terminal is the same whether you are in Japan, North America, Australia, or Timbuktu. Do take care of your eyes, whatever it takes. Metta, Dan 46382 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Golden Statues? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/4/05 11:29:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for the response. I have a few more comments: Howard: But to these beings it would seem like no time at all, for without consciousness there also is no subjective time passage. James: Yes, that's true, but 500 kappas is still a very long time to be existing without a mind. Without a mind there would be no clinging and desire, etc. so I still wonder what is present holding the body together. The Buddha described mind and form as like reeds leaning on each other for support, without a mind the body should break down into the four elements. Very odd. ------------------------------------------ Howard: From my phenomenalist perspective, this presents no problem. That 500 kappas is with respect to other mindstreams. For the mindstream in question, no time at all goes by. One moment there is the end of a life, and the very next moment everything is radically different (500 kappas different). That transition is possibly recognized after the fact as a blip in consciousness (with neither knowing nor known) and no time at all has elapsed. It is only afterwards that there *might* be the realization expressed by "Hey! What just happened?" ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would guess that the relinking consciousness that determined entry to the unconscious "lifetime" would also condition its termination, at which time accumulations (anusaya) would bring another kamma trace to the fore. James: I can understand and accept how kamma could kick-start the being's new existence, but that doesn't answer for me where the citta is in the meantime. ----------------------------------------- Howard: For the mindstream in question, there is no "meantime". Only for others was there. The "break" amounts to a disruption of the shared experience among mindstreams, a disruption of the inter-subjectivity. ----------------------------------------- The citta is supposed to be missing! Where did it go? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Nowhere. (No time!) ------------------------------------------- I recall a sutta where Mara is searching about the recently dead body of a monk looking for the unestablished consciousness and the Buddha said the consciousness couldn't be found because it had been released into final nibbana; therefore, consciousnesses don't just go disappearing and reappearing in samsara. Howard: I would think that the unconscious state is, internally, but an infinitessimal blip in awareness. (Ever have deep anesthesia for surgery, James?) James: Yes, I have been under deep anesthesia for surgery. I don't have a hard time imagining what it would be like for this type of being- it would be like nothing. I guess it would be like Rip Van Winkle: One second you are there and the next second it is 500 kalpas later! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! ------------------------------------------ What I have difficulty with is the idea of a body without a consciousness existing for that amount of time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: There was, for that mindstream, no experience and no time. Without experience or time, there is neither mentality nor materiality nor the time for either of them. Imagine a film in which there is a break in content, but otherwise complete continuity. For the mindstream involved, that would be the reality. For others, the film seen is not the same film. That is the real break - an experiential separation: a separation among mindstreams that are usually integrated. ---------------------------------------- Howard: By the way, doesn't this matter also tend to point out that there is a difference between "final nibbana" and unconsciousness? James: Yes. I have long maintained that final nibbana could not be annihilation. But that is a different can of worms. ;-) Metta, James ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46383 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/5/05 5:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very important issue. In an earlier post you had said: "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, arises, can you not pay particular attention?" Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly there is a difference between awareness of dhammas, which occurs al the time, and awareness with insight/clear comprehension. If it is that distinction you are making, then we agree. ------------------------------------------- As I said in my previous reply, in my view, directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Directed atention to a single doorway fosters concentration. But I consider most important directed attention to being clear in one's awareness, clear and calm, avoding distreaction, getting lost in thought or desire. ----------------------------------------- You also said: "How about the action of paying attention and turning back from getting lost in thought?" Again, this can be done, but it is clearly not the same thing as awareness of a presently arising dhamma, which in this case would be the dhamma(s) that is/are 'lost in thought' (i.e., consciousness accompanied by lobha and/or moha with thoughts as object). ----------------------------------- Howard: You're right. It's not the same. It is a *cultivational process* that helps foster increased concentration, mindfulness, and insight. ------------------------------------ The idea, which I think is implicit in your comment, that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The idea is that one needs to pay close attention. Close attention and firmly and repeatedly bringing the mind back when attention a wavers fosters all the useful factors. -------------------------------------------- Now for the comments in your latest post. upasaka@... wrote: > I've read the entirety of this post of yours, and what I see is the same >as what I just saw in a post by Sarah - that there is nothing to do. It comes >down to either a complete determinism or a complete randomness (vis-a-vis >voltional action), or a mix of the two, but it amounts to making Buddhist >"practice" into a zero. I am absolutely opposed to this perspective. I consider it >harmful to the Dhamma. I think it is a great mistake. (Please excuse my being so >wishy-washy on this, Jon! ;-) > > You mention volitional action, and I believe this is key to your view of what 'Buddhist practice' is all about (and of course it goes hand in hand with the idea discussed above that insight is more likely to arise when the preceding consciousness is kusala). ---------------------------------------- Howard: All practice, even golf practice (!), is a matter of volition. ---------------------------------------- As I recall, however, you have in the past acknowledged that kusala, including insight, *can* arise without the undertaking of any kind of volitional action immediately before that arising. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Sure, due to prior cultivation. Bhavana is the key, and that requires volitional action. ---------------------------------------- That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly. There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetanba is the reality underlying conventional volition. ------------------------------------------ Now this is not the same as saying that the arising of kusala is 'random' or 'determined'. No kusala can arise unless the conditions for its arising have been developed in the past (and in addition other necessary conditions are present). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. And central among those conditions are Dhamma practice - past cultivation. And the cultivation of the present becomes the past cultivation of the future. No cultivation now, no yield in the future. -------------------------------------------- But the actual moment of its arising may or may not be preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: AGREED!!! ----------------------------------------- If that is so, then we should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Jon ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46384 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 6:54am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 212 - Zeal/chanda (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] When akusala citta arises, it is accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars” which are vitakka, vicåra, adhimokkha (except in the case of moha-múla-citta accompanied by vicikicchå, doubt), viriya and chanda (except in the case of the two types of moha-múla-citta which are not accompanied by chanda). It is accompanied by píti only when the feeling is pleasant feeling. It is also accompanied by cetasikas which arise only with akusala citta. The “universals” and the “particulars” are all akusala in this case. Cetanå, for example, “wills” akusala; vitakka “thinks” of the object in an unwholesome way; adhimokkha, if it arises, is convinced about the object which is the object of akusala citta; viriya supports the citta and accompanying cetasikas; píti, if it arises, takes an interest in the object; chanda, if it arises, needs the object, searches for it. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46385 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:04am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Jon (and Howard, among others) - I am going to discuss the points you made in message # 46376, even before reading Howard reply. Then I will read Howard's response to learn from it later. Your points that I like and want to respond to, if you don't mind, are as follows. 1. Yes, I (Jon) can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of those dhammas. ... directed attention to a single doorway or its object is one thing; the arising of kusala consciousness which has been conditioned by useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another. 2. Your comment (Howard's), that awareness is more likely to occur at a time of kusala mind-states than at a time when the mind-states are akusala, is not borne out by the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta, which seems to make equal mention of both. And such a view would surely be quite an impediment to the arising of awareness in a day, given that the great majority of the consciousness in a day is aksuala consciousness of one kind or another. 3. Kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ... We should acknowledge the principle that the arising of kusala is not *necessarily* associated with VA (volitional action) in the immediately preceding moments, regardless of how important we see VA in increasing the rate of development of kusala (that is another issue altogether). Tep's Reply ======= 1. No, they are not the same because we haven't got yatha-bhuta-nana- dassana yet. But we must always try to sharpen our knowledge and understanding by directed attention, which is accompanied by sati & sampajanna & viriya & samma-ditthi. The often we make such exertion the closer we will be to yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, when sati becomes samma-sati and viriya turns into samma-vayamo with samma-ditthi leading the way. I also agree that "useful reflection on what has been heard and understood and which takes visible object, sound or hardness as its object is another" helps facilitate this convergence toward yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana. 2. My experience indicates that when I am fully aware of an object (arammana) there is sati-sampajanna, and there is no akusala. But when the mind is defiled by an akusala, awareness only arises after the defilement has subsided. So there is a time delay before awareness is back in control. Then I can meditate by citta-nupassana on the mind state (with the subsided defilement). The good news is : the more often I direct attention to practice citta-nupassana every now and then, the shorter the awareness-time-delay becomes. 3. How often does that non-premeditated/unprompted arising of kusala occur in comparison with the occurrence of kusala by means of VA? Further, is it possible for akusala to stop growing without our volitional action to abandon it? You apparently have forgotten the four right endeavours. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Howard > > The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, > was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd > like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very > important issue. > 46386 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? buddhistmedi... Hi , all DSG members - I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon: > Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, > can be read in either of those 2 ways. > > I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, > < aware.'>>, and the list of activities that follows as being an > elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness > and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. > > You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the > 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. > > Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general > understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is > preferred. > > But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those > readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? > > My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of > the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Many thanks for this post. I can see that a lot of care and attention > has gone into it. I think the crux of the issue is contained in your > comments on the passage from MN 39 (Maha-Assapura Sutta, Greater > Discourse at Assapura), so I will go straight to that part. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > For example, in MN 39: "Bhikkhus, what more needs to be > done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully > aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. In > looking ahead and looking aside, .. In bending and stretching our > limbs, ... In wearing our robes and cloak and using our almsbowls, ... In > eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, ... In walking, standing, sitting, > lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, we will act with > clear awareness..[endquote] > > It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are > expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that > these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and > sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without > taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective > moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. This point > will be repeated later on to make sure that it is clear. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (snipped) > Jon > > PS Thanks for the many quotes and citations in your post. I think we > are both interested in the same suttas, but our difference is one of > interpretation. > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi Jon {Attn. Nina, Sarah, Howard, James, Herman, Phil, Larry, Mike, > >and other interested members} - > > > > > >I have a strong intention today to give a clear response to the main > >question that Jon has raised with regard to satipatthana development: > >i.e. whether it is right or wrong to have "directed actvities" for > >development of satisampajanna in the present moment. I know that Jon > >already has an answer in his mind: it is wrong. My task is to prove that it > >is not. This post is only about the activities, or training exercises, based > >on the bodies in the body (kaye-kaya). > >... > > > >Mindfulness establishment (upatthaana) is in the same sense as using > >in-breath and out-breath in Anapanasati < Breathing Treatise article > >#172. Establishment (foundation) by means of in-breath > >is 'mindfulness'; Establishment (foundation, upatthaana) by means of > >out-breath is 'mindfulness'. When he breaths in it is established > >(founded) in him; when he breaths out it is established (founded) in > >him.> So, Jon, please do not jump to the conclusion that it is wrong to > >train mindful awareness (i.e. establishing sati-sampajanna) by using > >body movements and daily activities as the objects of sati- > >sampajanna in the "training exercises". > > > >Thank you for reading through this far. I hope I have made my points > >clear. Tell me what you think. > > > > > >Respectfully yours, > > > > > > > >Tep > > > > 46387 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 207 - Zeal/chanda (g) - Questions buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Sarah - First of all, let me thank Sarah whose reply to my "seires of questions" (in the other post) shows consistency and broad knowledge gained from a lot of research. My deep appreciation goes to Nina's unsurpassed skill in seeing clearly the centerpoint of my questions. [Nina: This is Dhammachanda, zeal of Dhamma.] Knowing this fact makes it clear why what Sarah said is true [Sarah: Right effort and wholesome chanda are generated when there is right understanding of dhammas by conditions and arise with that understanding.] Nina, I like the following quote from the Dispeller of Delusion very much. "Furthermore, one who effects zeal induces zeal; one effecting it continuously produces [zeal]. One who rouses it again when it has fallen due to some obstacle arouses it; one who keeps it continually on foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who brings it about with unhesitancy, with unreluctance and with unreservedness brings it into being." Gratefully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > Good questions from Tep. > I am glad Sarah answered them very clearly, I am just back. > I can add something at one point only. I put one addition at the end. > op 31-05-2005 09:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: (snipped) > Nina:Some addition, taken from Visuddhimagga studies: > We read in the Dispeller of Delusion² (Ch 8, 1401) in the section of > arousing right effort, about the arousing of chanda : One who rouses it again when it has fallen due to some obstacle ³ rouses it; > one who keeps it continually on foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who brings it about with unhesitancy, with > unreluctance and with unreservedness brings it into being.> > We are bound to meet obstacles in the development of vipassanaa, due to our defilements. But this text is a reminder not to loose courage, but to continue developing understanding of the realities that appear in daily life. It should be without hesitation, withour reluctance, without reserve, no matter whether the objects are pleasant or unpleasant, kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. This is the zeal of Dhamma, Dhammachanda.> > > Nina. 46388 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:44am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your discussion on the concept and reality in breathing meditation is very useful. Also, some observed and inferred mental factors that you have talked about, despite the fact that you are not so sure right now, are all good to know. Larry: > In jhana practise, the counterpart sign arises with access >concentration and is an ideal perception without the >characteristics of rise and fall or individuating characteristics >such as long and short. Before that there is only the learning sign >which is cognized with 5-door consciousness. I think that is what this >treatise is talking about, but maybe the precise point where the saw >touches the log, so to speak, and in and out disappear could be >idealized into a counterpart sign and momentary >access concentration could arise. Not sure. > Tep: I believe that as we continue to explore (through practicing) we'll find clearer answers. Please keep the discussion alive. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm sure you have experienced all these rupas, if only vaguely, and you > could, if you applied yourself, locate them in breathing. They are, > after all, what breathing is all about. But I agree there is no direct > reference to them in this treatise on breathing. This kind of analysis > is the same as discriminating between sign, in-breath, and out-breath, > only with more detail. And it explores, a little, the relationship > between concept and reality as it manifests in mindfulness of breathing. > My uncertainty on the counterpart sign comes from the Visuddhimagga. > Larry 46389 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:30am Subject: Mel Brooks upasaka_howard Hi, All - I think that Mel Brooks must be a lurker on DSG. I was just overhearing a segment of his silly film "Dracula: Dead and Loving It". Dracula's drone, Renfield (if that's the name) is thrown into a jail cell. There ensues the following dialogue: Guard: There! You shall remain here until you rot!! (He slams the cell door shut, and then immediately after the door is reopened by him.) Guard: Go! You may leave now! You are released for good behavior! Renfield: But, why? I was here for but a moment! Guard: Yes, but in that moment your behavior was very good! ;-)) ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, you said you like to hear our thoughts. I shall think aloud. op 05-06-2005 16:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully >> aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are >> expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that >> these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and >> sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without >> taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective >> moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. ---------- N: When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will take them for mine or self. If he focusses on each of his actions, it seems to me that there is mere concentration. There may be concentration with paññaa, concentration with ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha darkens the true nature of realities. I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. But this may happen without one realizing it, that is the danger. I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be such a surprise! Nina. 46391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dhamma zeal. nilovg Hi Tep, I also like it, I find it encouraging. At the same time it is good to remember that it is a cetasika, that it has the support of all the other sobhana cetasikas we learnt about in the Visuddhimagga study.Whenever I study one cetasika I like to remember also all the others that arise together, otherwise I would get a wrong picture. There is our inherent tendency to take realities for self. Even we deny the existence of self intellectually, this deeply accumulated tendency will find ways and means to operate, to be active in our words and actions. It arises with lobha, with clinging, it clings to a wrong interpretation of reality. Paññaa can detect all these akusala inclinations. But we have to be brave and sincere to recognize where we are wrong, to see that we do not understand much yet. Inspite of this the the development of the Path can go on gradually, and then we can say there is zeal of Dhamma, inspite of obstacles. But the obstacles have to be known. Nina. op 05-06-2005 17:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina, I like the following quote from the Dispeller of Delusion very > much. > > "Furthermore, one who effects zeal induces zeal; one effecting it > continuously produces [zeal]. One who rouses it again when it has > fallen due to some obstacle arouses it; one who keeps it continually on > foot arouses it. One who makes it evident brings it about; one who > brings it about with unhesitancy, with unreluctance and with > unreservedness brings it into being." 46392 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: Mel Brooks buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, All - > Guard: There! You shall remain here until you rot!! (He slams the cell > door shut, and then immediately after the door is reopened by him.) > Guard: Go! You may leave now! You are released for good behavior! > Renfield: But, why? I was here for but a moment! > Guard: Yes, but in that moment your behavior was very good! > > ;-)) > > ====================== > With metta, > Howard ;-)) Very cute and telling. Metta, James 46393 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mel Brooks upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/5/05 3:10:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: ;-)) Very cute and telling. ======================= Yes! You got it! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: Thanks for a restrained (in James terms) response to my post which I'm sure you would have found provocative in parts. James: Oh, when I first came to DSG I found this kind of stuff from you provocative- not as much anymore. Really, I find it to be a perversion of the dhamma and a sad attempt at shirking personal responsibility for achieving enlightenment, but not that provocative to me. Jon: It's good to be able to follow a dialogue along with you ;-)) James: Why? It doesn't change your mind, or my mind, one single bit- we just keep going round and round in circles. I wonder if we would both be better off going to Howard's house and watching Mel Brooks movies. ;-)) But, I will trudge forward and hope some good comes of it. Jon: The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that action with the idea that insight will result James: No, they are not both likely to do that. You are guessing and putting forth a subjective interpretation as fact. Even in the Buddha's time, when monks were given a meditation/reflection subject, they didn't automatically assume that attention to that subject was going to bring about insight. Sometimes they would go back to the Buddha for another subject because they thought the first one wasn't going to work. Jon, they do not believe in rituals just because they believe in the possible effectiveness of certain meditation subjects. Jon: or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. James: Well, again you are stating your personal opinion and there is no reason I should believe your personal opinion in this matter. You need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are stating and I will believe you. Jon: I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this lifetime). James: Good. Now, if you would just realize that the effort applied to practice is more or less directly proportional to the level of development, we would be in business! ;-)) Jon: However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to hear more on your thinking about this. James: I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the Satipatthana Sutta, the whole discourse, was addressed to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. The Buddha didn't give teachings like that to lay folk. Metta, James 46395 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina { and welcome every member!} - I am writing this email with your two messages # 46391 and #45982 in mind. Before giving you a reply, let me first summarize the related ideas in these two messages. Nina in #46391: -- "There is our inherent tendency to take realities for self. Even we deny the existence of self intellectually, this deeply accumulated tendency will find ways and means to operate, to be active in our words and actions. It arises with lobha, with clinging, it clings to a wrong interpretation of reality. -- "Pannaa can detect all these akusala inclinations. But we have to be brave and sincere to recognize where we are wrong, to see that we do not understand much yet. Nina in #46390: -- "When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will take them for mine or self. -- "There may be concentration with pannaa, concentration with ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha darkens the true nature of realities. -- "I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. Tep: Not surprisingly, the theme of "taking realities for self " with lobha and clinging is omnipresent again. And, of course, the cure for this affliction is panna, that is to realize that namas and rupas in the present moment are just conditioned dhammas, not mine, not 'I', not my self. I think every DSG member has already memorized all this. ----------------------- Nina: I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be such a surprise! Tep: I know this recurring theme will no longer be just the recitation of worldlings, if and when they attain Stream-entry and higher. But it is also clear that such a recitation, even with many years of pariyatti, is not adequate without strongly committed patipatti. Both pariyatti and patipatti can lead one to pativedha, i.e. realization of the truth of the Dhamma. Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining are insufficient, according to the Buddha in AN V.73 : Dhamma-viharin Sutta. We must not neglect seclusion (viveka) and commit ourselves to internal tranquillity of awareness. With vipassana yoked with viveka and samatha, I have no doubt whatsoever that lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > you said you like to hear our thoughts. I shall think aloud. > op 05-06-2005 16:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be mindful and fully > >> aware. In going forward and returning, we will act with clear awarness. > > It is not right to disregard these specific elements of activities that are > >> expounded in the Buddha's wordings and say (like Jon does) that > >> these activities are just the parts of a bigger picture, because sati and > >> sampajanna are supposed to be established in each of them. Without > >> taking each of them as the "object" to establish sati in the respective > >> moment , there is no satisampajanna in that very moment. > ---------- > N: When the bhikkhu is walking or following his daily activities, seeing or > hearing, or attachment arise naturally. If he is not aware of them he will > take them for mine or self. > If he focusses on each of his actions, it seems to me that there is mere > concentration. There may be concentration with paññaa, concentration with > ignorance and clinging. Clinging because he wants a result to happen. Moha > darkens the true nature of realities. > I think that understanding can illuminate the characteristics of all these > namas and rupas that appear because of conditions, not because they are > directed by someone. Whenever there is a trying to focus, to direct, to > select, inevitably an idea of self is behind it all. But this may happen > without one realizing it, that is the danger. > I find it helpful to remember that whatever occurs do so because of > conditions, and that we never know beforehand what will arise. It can be > such a surprise! > Nina. 46396 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:23pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining > are insufficient, according to the Buddha ))))))))))))))0 Dear Tep Anguttara Nikaya http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm 6. Vimuttàyatanasuttaü- The sphere of the releases. 003.06. Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five? Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. "endsutta Robertk Robertk 46397 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK {and welcome everyone!} - It was so nice to see your post again. I had been wondering, before the arrival of your message, where Robert was hiding these days! The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It is much shorter than yours. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & > examining > > are insufficient, according to the Buddha > ))))))))))))))0 > 46398 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Good point, Phil. Dhamma well-taught will often be uncomfortable, irritating. Dan > Forgot to mention that I think irritation when hearing Dhamma might > be a good sign. I never felt irritated when listening/reading Thich > Nhat Hahn's feelgood Dhamma, for example. True Dhamma should irritate > us at times, because true dhamma goes against the way of the world, > against our comforts, against our preconceptions. There is lobha which > conditions the irritation when someone tries to take our pablum away > from us. > > > Metta, > Phil 46399 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: Who is Strong? gazita2002 Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": > > "Who is strong?" > "He who controls his passions" > > This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must take to > heart. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > >