46400 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 5:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? Evan_Stamato... Azita, Another important condition is friendship. According to the Buddha, friendship (friends in the Dhamma) is the whole of the holy life. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gazita2002 Sent: Monday, 6 June 2005 9:36 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita 46401 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary > and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It is much > shorter than yours. > > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the > one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, > out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the > roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't > be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: @@Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases" http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? Robertk 46402 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who is Strong? upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 6/5/05 7:37:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: Hello Howard, and other friends, at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) i've heard K.Sujin say that the development of Sati and Panna must be very natural, and i interpret that to mean that they can arise as naturally as Lobha, given the right conditions. Those conditions being hearing the true Dhamma, contemplating what is heard and practise in accordance with the teaching. now if that teaching is about knowing realities as they arise, that those realities are as your beautiful comment from the Diamond Sutra would indicate, that they have arisen before 'we' can stop them, then to know them as they really are seems like the most sobering thing I've ever heard in this current life time. patience, courage, good cheer and sometimes tears Azita ============================ Controlling passions is, as I see it, a matter of transforming the mind by cultivating the factors leading to equanimity and wisdom. This includes all the means provided by the Buddha in his magnificent Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46403 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:09pm Subject: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi all, My apologies for being so quiet over the past two or three weeks. I have been inspired to respond to many messages, as usual, but the responses have not been posted. So, without really knowing what it is going to contain, I am determined to post this message regardless. Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. I read out two posts from Sarah (44853 and 44876) in which she quoted the Mahadhammasamadana Sutta. That sutta explains that the third way of abstaining from misconduct causes us to "experience grief and pain as a result" but ripens in the future as pleasure. Sarah's examples were: ". . . by not harming insects, one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or our hypothetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very generous but lost his wealth and suffered a lot." At first, I found it shocking that samadana sila - a kusala dhamma - could cause grief and pain. But the important thing is, of course, that it doesn't cause grief and pain by way of kamma, it does so by way of natural decisive support condition. Another initial inclination was to flatly reject any ability to know, in conventional terms, what has been caused by what. But then I had to admit; if the place is over-run by cockroaches, it is because we didn't control them. If we bang our head against a brick wall, we can safely assume that our sore head - and all the blood - was caused by banging our head against a brick wall. This is blatently obvious to most people, but not so to an Abhidhamma extremist. :-) I also had to back down on some of my earlier, inflammatory, statements (to Azita and Rob K) in which I claimed that uninstructed worldlings could never know when an activity was kusala or akusala. Clearly, we can be pretty near certain that some conventional activities are unwholesome. There, I've said it! :-) Now it is time for a walk along the beach (no surfing because the waves are as flat as a pancake). I will be taking my new Portable Mp3 player, on which is loaded "Benares 1 & 2." See you later, and thanks for all the posts. Ken H 46404 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: Who is Strong? gazita2002 Hello Evan, Yes, thank you, friendship is another important condition. the good friend in dhamma. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Azita, > > Another important condition is friendship. According to the Buddha, > friendship (friends in the Dhamma) is the whole of the holy life. > > Metta, > > Evan > 46405 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:44pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 213 - Zeal/chanda (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] When mahå-kusala citta (kåmåvacara kusala citta or kusala citta of the sense-sphere) arises, it is accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars” which are vitakka, vicåra, adhimokkha, viriya and chanda. It is accompanied by píti only when the feeling is pleasant feeling. It is also accompanied by sobhana cetasikas which arise only with sobhana citta. The “universals” and the “particulars” are all kusala in this case. Cetanå, for example, “wills” kusala; vitakka “thinks” of the object in the wholesome way; adhimokkha is convinced about the object which is the object of kusala citta; viriya supports the citta and the accompanying cetasikas; píti, if it arises, takes an interest in the object and “refreshes” citta and the accompanying cetasikas; chanda searches for the object in a wholesome way, it assists the citta in the accomplishment of kusala. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46406 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: ------------------- Hi all DSG members, I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. > Jon: > Perhaps we can agree that the words of the sutta alone, without more, > can be read in either of those 2 ways. > > I would see the emphasis of the passage as being on the opening words, > < aware.'>>, and the list of activities that follows as being an > elaboration on that general statement, indicating that the mindfulness > and awareness was something that could (potentially) occur while doing any (normal daily) activity. ------------------- Yes, when the Buddha said "You" and "We" he was not referring to abiding beings: he was referring to momentary nama and rupa. So the bhikkhus who heard his words did not think, "This will be *my* training; *I* will be mindful; the arising of mindfulness/non- mindfulness can be controlled." They did not comprehend his words in any of those conventional ways because they understood the profoundly non-conventional truth of anatta. -------------------------------- Jon: > > You would see those opening words as being an introduction to the list of activities that follows, and the activities themselves as being the > 'meat' of the passage, a description of *how* a person can train himself to 'be mindful and fully aware'. > ---------------------------------------------------------- That was how I understood those words until I discovered DSG and, through it, the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. Now, I gratefully agree with the following sentiments (even though they are expressed in a conciliatory style I have yet to acquire). :-) Ken H Jon: > Well, either reading is open, and it will depend on one's general > understanding of the whole of the teachings as to which reading is > preferred. > > But -- and I think we would also agree on this -- only one of those > readings can be correct (although both could be wrong ;-)). So how are we going to take this discussion further? > > My own answer to that would be to look at other suttas, other parts of > the Tipitaka, and the commentaries. But I know that not everyone sees value in that kind of approach. Do you have any suggestions? 46407 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? kelvin_lwin Hi All, > through it, the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. How do you see this part from Vism. I 135: The Elder Sangharakkhita the Great, aged over sixty, was lying, it seems, on his deathbed. The order of Bhikkhus questioned him about attainment of the supramundane state. The elder said: 'I have no supramundane state'. Then the young bhikkhu who was attending on him said: 'Venerable sir, people have come as much as twelve leagues, thinking that you have reached nibbana. It will be a disappointment for many if you die as an ordinary man'. -- 'Friend, thinking to see the Blessed One Metteya, I did not try for insight. So help me sit up and give me the chance'. He helped the elder to sit up and went out. As he went out the elder reached Arahantship and he gave a sign by snapping his fingers. The order assembled and said to him" 'Venerable sir, you have done a difficult thing in achieving the supramundane state in the hour of death'. -- 'The was not difficult, friends. But rather I will tell you what is difficult. Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth'. - kel 46408 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Rough Realism ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Dear and Delightful is Dangerous..!: Whatsoever dear things, delighted in, gratified, that are pleasant to us, all these will undergo change and alteration... We will thereby loose them as they were before and be separated from them, since now they have become otherwise and are thus not anymore the same. They have become something different! Whatsoever is born, become, arisen, emerged, and come into being as a compounded and constructed phenomenon, is liable to decay, is prone to fade away, and is bound to vanish... That a thing dependent on supporting conditions should not disintegrate, break up, fall apart, die, and cease to exist, that is indeed impossible... Thus renouncing, letting go, leaving behind, forsaking, abandoning and rejecting all these transient fabrications, is therefore the only true and safe escape from the sure suffering, misery, frustration and deprivation inherent in all this repeated & ever recurring loss, decay, demise, deficit, ageing, sickness and Death... This unconditional & eternal release from all Pain, Misery & Death is called Awakening into Enlightenment... The Noble 8-fold Way is the only real way thereto. There is no other certain, safe & sound exit... Now is the time to realize that fact ... Now is the time to initiate that path ... Now is the time to complete that task ... May your journey be swift and sweet !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46409 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self vvk63 Hi! All The duality of self can be explained by the analogy of looking into the mirror. What you see is you but that is not actually you and you can never see you. Best regards Venky Charles DaCosta wrote: Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) is a viewpoint".>, according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46410 From: "vvk63" Date: Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! vvk63 Hi! I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . Thanks & best regards VVK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi vvk63, > welcome;-)) > But what is your name, and what are your interests? > NIna. > op 01-06-2005 13:41 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@y...: > > > Hello! I am new to this group. 46411 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, >the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the >Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare >of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, >empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later > fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is on the samatha part of the samatha-vipassana whole. RobertK : In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases" http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? Tep: Yes, of course, he does. However, you should note a few things before jumping to a conclusion that " Aha! I too can 'think discursively about the Teaching' that I have heard of and read about. Joy will arise in me, etc., and my mind will achieve one-pointedness like this Bhikkhu." The few things to think about are: 1. The sphere of releases is very advanced -- way beyond the level of worldlings and trainers(sekkha). It is way beyond right concentration (samma-samadhi, 4 jhanas) and right knowledge (samma-nana). As stated in MN 117 : "In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way beyond your and my level of thinking. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > The last paragraph of AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta is necessary > > and sufficient as my reply to your posted sutta. Just read it . It > is much > > shorter than yours. > > 46412 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / End of Discussion? agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi , all DSG members - > > I shall be glad to know what you all think of Jon's interpretation of MN 39 > and what suggestion(s) you might want to give him. Thanks. > The Path is complicated and complex. My understanding, memory, intelligence is much simpler then The Path. It just arises based on conditions and then falls. Buddha in this sutta is showing only one specific aspect of the Path, and yet... I tend to "cut off" just one sentence, or one specific aspect of it to understand. In fact - to prepare my very precious self to deal with it. It just feels good to do this cutting thing, selecting one aspect. I remember, I was doing this for long time. And I remember where it leads me. I can use sanna on The Path. Metta, Agrios 46413 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Please correct one typographical error for me : > > 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way > beyond your and my level of thinking. > The word "recursively" should be changed to "discursively". Thanks. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - > > You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another > question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > 46414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran nilovg Hi Ken, I am glad you are back. I was wondering where you were. We heard so little about Cooran, what were all the discussions about? I am glad you have uploaded the audio. It would be nice if you quote some of it with your own observations added. Nina. op 06-06-2005 05:09 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > > Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One > particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a > point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, > including the precepts. 46415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! nilovg Hi V V K, Thanks for telling us about your spiritual journey. Dialogue, asking questions is one way of realising who you are. Nina. op 06-06-2005 07:45 schreef vvk63 op vvk63@...: > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. 46416 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:40am Subject: Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your interesting post on Judaism, I was hoping you would add > something. > I would like to know more on the blessings, and Chassidism, but have no time > to read the books on them. > Take the ten commandments, coming from the Torah. So much stress on > behaviour to parents and fellowmen. We were at a church for a funeral and > had time to look at them, contemplate on them, they were put up on plaques > at the wall. > I appreciate many points in other religions much more since having come into > contact with the Dhamma. > Nina. Hmm, I have read a little bit of Talmud after a long time of reading Buddhist scripture, specifically about morality, it felt like my whole discipline was apparent, as it was when I first practised Dharma, I figure the difference is now that I'm used to reading it and reading about virtue doesn't click with me anymore. I definitely know more about myself and potential for goodness, it seems the only thing keeping me undisciplined is my assholitude. The question will be, can I overcome it? Meditation lets me see and hear idle chatter for what it is, and abstain from it. I might have the opportunity to rectify my relationship with my father, but I would have to take the initiative. No more idle chatter relationship.. if I can practise the four kinds of right speech, which is always difficult for me. Or perhaps just get the courage to tell him right off that I am going to carry out the family tradition and support him with my work, I don't know how well that would fly but it seems that's what I should be doing. I am not fond of my parents. I want for their welfare but the things they have put me through the past two years really have me averse to helping them, even though I still do try. I think I should focus more on myself, keeping my discipline, straightening myself morally, rather than try to change other people first. This is how things appear to me they should be, I didn't "hammer it out" with logical thinking. Peace, A.L. P.S. Anyone see my new photo? Got the webcam back! 46418 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > op 30-05-2005 22:46 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@g...: > > However I still envision myself as > > practising the four foundations of mindfulness as part of the Noble > > Eightfold Path, ideally. This includes being aware of cittas and so > > on. There might be less contradiction between Judaism and Buddhism > > than I originally thought. I did some reading of the Talmud last > > night and it brought some very favorable results, even almost bringing > > the discipline of the Dharma back to life. > N: Very interesting. What good sila did you read about in the Talmud? Nina I just read a little about the Talmud and then read a section of the first 'book,' about cases where two people give or take an object from one another and where the giver or recipient is 'culpable.' As referenced in my last post, reading anew about virtue, it did 'click' this time and my Dharma-discipline seemed to jump right back in action. Now I should overcome my depression or tendency to just sit back and watch TV, and ready myself for reading some more. Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter the discipline all at once. > Your remarks make me think of the Sigalovada sutta (Diigha Nikaaya, sutta > 31), where Sigala followed the family tradition, honouring the six quarters. > The Buddha gave his practice a deeper dimension. He spoke about desire, > anger, delusion and fear that make one commit evil. He emphasized good > friendship. > Kusala siila is wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Nina! This is the exact sutta I was referring to when I said 'layperson's code of discipline.' My question to you then is: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of fear? In other words, is anything done from these four roots akusala or is it just that we should be mindful of these four things that might lead us to do another, inherently evil, deed? I would appreciate your take on this, you are quite qualified to answer. If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. > > A:.... Carrying out the family tradition seems to be along those lines. For > > example, I read in one of our prayerbooks, a line at the beginning, > > "Do what is just and right, do not exploit the stranger or [someone > > else], deliver the wrong from the hand of the oppressed. Who carries > > this out will enter the gates of David's royal line" or something > > similar. So basically the tradition is to do this and attain a > > heavenly rebirth. This is how I understand how the family tradition > > is to be carried out. > N: This shows that the right cause will bring the right result. However, > heavenly rebirth is not the ultimate goal, better still: the end of rebirth, > this is the third noble Truth. Yes! Nina this is exactly what I am talking about and mentioned above. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. > As to family tradition: you can just take out what you find inspiring and > helpful. > You say: > mindfulness as part of the Noble Eightfold Path, ideally.> > First we should understand what are the objects included in the four > foundations of mindfulness. Any dhamma appearing now thorugh eyes, ears, > nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. These dhammas appear also when reading > the Talmud, or writing posts, thinking about the family tradition. > Nina. Very true, but I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two disciplines, it could be. Peace and happiness, A.L. 46419 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? foamflowers Sarah there is a small not at the bottom of this message for helping me on my vedana study. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > Please correct one typographical error for me : > 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is >way beyond your and my level of thinking. > The word "recursively" should be changed to "discursively". Thanks. > Kind regards, > Tep ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [lisah] ---Recursion--- is a particular way of specifying (or constructing) a class of objects (or an object from a certain class) with the help of a reference to other objects of the class: a recursive definition defines objects in terms of the already defined objects of the class. (adv) ---discursively---, ramblingly (in a rambling manner) ---discernment--- understanding: the cognitive condition of someone who understands; "he has virtually no understanding of social cause and effect" taste: delicate discrimination (especially of aesthetic values); "arrogance and lack of taste contributed to his rapid success"; "to ask at that particular time was the ultimate in bad taste" perception: of that which is obscure sagacity: ability to make good judgments discretion: the trait of judging wisely and objectively; "a man of discernment" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi, RobertK { + all interested members} - You asked me a question about the 'practice of jhana' and another question about dwelling in "the sphere of the releases". > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the > one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, >the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the >Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare >of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, >empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't >later fall into regret. This is our message to you." >______________ RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean by 'practice jhana'? Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is on the samatha part of the samatha- vipassana whole. [lisah] I think discernment here is important to judge or perceive correctly but when one is in jhana there is no discernment that happens afterwards correct? Wouldn't discernment be a better word, as in understanding what is very subtle and hard to see and that relates to the insights that arise after jhana states have been left behind? I'm very confused right now ....lol and goofing off, must get back to work! ________________________________________________ Dear Sarah, Sarah I studied my abhidhamma words this week but didn't use the study for a reply to you lovely repost on my post about vedana. I have a dear friend who is having horrible mental and physical issues from clinging to their past abuse during their childhood. I used my lessons to compose a letter of care and concern that I have for them from your questions and my study. It's to personal to post here on dsg but your questions on my understanding vedana helped me go back and clarify some issues, which helped me reach out and help someone else! Thank you so much for your wisdom and courage. With Metta, Lisa 46420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, op 05-06-2005 23:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Over there are the > roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't > be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." and Tep wrote also: Dhamma study, teaching, recitation, thinking & evaluating & examining > are insufficient, according to the Buddha in AN V.73 : Dhamma-viharin > Sutta. We must not neglect seclusion (viveka) and commit ourselves to > internal tranquillity of awareness. With vipassana yoked with viveka > and samatha, I have no doubt whatsoever that lobha and the self view > will become less and less as the problem. ------------ N: I think we should know to whom the Buddha addressed himself. For the monk secluded dwellings, panta senasana, were praised very much. The monk should not hang around in the village and engage in animal talk. Nor should he indulge in the ease of bed. Monks had already accumulations to go to the roots of trees, but evenso they should not be negligent and they should apply themselves to satipatthana. And when they were applying themselves to anapanasati evenso, they should be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appeared, in order to see the body in the body, not self, feeling in the feeling, not self, etc. Only that is the way that anapanasati can bring great fruit, great benefit. There is no rule that also laypeople must go into seclusion. It depends on their natural inclinations. As to the word meditate, jhaayati, as Sarah explained this has two meanings: remember her post on burning away of defilements? It can mean: develop the samatha kammatthana and also: contemplate nama and rupa, their three characteristics. Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. Nina. Nina. 46421 From: nina Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 10:59am Subject: natural development nilovg Dear friends, tonight at dinner I read to Lodewijk from my Letters about Vipassana (XI), the following quote from Kh Sujin. There is also something about watching T.V. and I thought of Howard's Mel movie. Here it is: We may wonder whether watching T.V. would hinder the arising of sati. While we watch there are many conditions for attachment, or, when the movie is frightening we have fear. Khun Sujin said about this: "Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anatta." In other words, if ,we want to watch T.V. this wish is conditioned already. Also while we watch there is seeing, hearing or thinking, one reality at a time. Realities appear, no matter whether we watch or do not watch T.V. there is one world at a time appearing through one of the six doorways. These six worlds should be separated until there is no self. Realities appear because of their own conditions, not because of our wish. Khun Sujin said: Nina. 46422 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - Thanks for the good discussion. Nina: Monks had already accumulations to go to the roots of trees, but evenso they should not be negligent and they should apply themselves to satipatthana. And when they were applying themselves to anapanasati evenso, they should be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appeared, in order to see the body in the body, not self, feeling in the feeling, not self, etc. Only that is the way that anapanasati can bring great fruit, great benefit. There is no rule that also laypeople must go into seclusion. It depends on their natural inclinations. Tep: I don't worry about conscientious monks who understand viveka, they can take care of themselves. My post is a reply to RobertK who does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice. It is also a reply to those who is leaning too much on the "understanding leg" of the tripod, Pariyatti-Patipatti-Pativedha. Nina: As to the word meditate, jhaayati, as Sarah explained this has two meanings: remember her post on burning away of defilements? It can mean: develop the samatha kammatthana and also: contemplate nama and rupa, their three characteristics. Tep: This is not a new or confusing issue. Samatha and vipassana are two of the most discussed topics at any Buddhist forum. Isn't contemplation of nama and rupa, or the five aggregates, by means of the three characteristics, known as anupassana? "The seven contemplation's: (1) Contemplating (formations) as impermanent, one abandons the perception of permanence. (2) Contemplating (them) as painful, one abandons the perception of happiness (to be found in them). (3) Contemplating (them) as not self, one abandons the perception of self. (4) Becoming dispassionate, one abandons delighting. (5) Causing fading away, one abandons greed. (6) Causing cessation, one abandons originating. (7) Relinquishing, one abandons grasping" (Pts.M. I, p. 58). See also Vis.M. XXI, 43; XXII, 114. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/anupassanaa.htm Nina: Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. Tep: So, is samatha same as vipassana? Or is "contemplation" so broad that it covers both samatha and vipassana? samatha = 'tranquillity', serenity, is a synonym of samaadhi (concentration), cittekaggataa (one-pointed ness of mind) and avikkhepa (undistracted ness). It is one of the mental factors in wholesome consciousness. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samatha.htm Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > 46423 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Tep: I don't worry about conscientious monks who understand viveka, > they can take care of themselves. My post is a reply to RobertK who > does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice. ================= Dear Tep, I might be mistaken but I don't think I've ever said I don't believe in Jhana practice or seclusion? Do you have the post? I think there are a several posts where I talk about insighting the present moment - (ie, about seclusion in its deepest meaning). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Elder, that you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Yes, lord." ... "But how do you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Lord, alone I enter the village for alms, alone I return, alone I sit withdrawn, Buddha: listen well to you how your living alone is perfected in its details, and pay close attention. I will speak." ... "As you say, lord," Ven. Elder responded. ... The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." Robertk 46424 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 6:19pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Tep (quoting AN V.73, Dhamma-viharin Sutta ): > > . Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. > >______________ > > RobertK: Dear Tep, in the sutta above what does the Buddha mean > by 'practice jhana'? > > Tep: The meaning is given at the beginning of this sutta. "Then there is > the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied > it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He > spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He > doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is > called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the > Dhamma". So you may see, practicing jhana is samatha bhavana in > order to gain "internal tranquility of awareness". This is the advice > given to "monks" who are not Arahant. Clearly, the discourse focus is > on the samatha part of the samatha-vipassana whole. > > ========== Dear Tep, This same phrase is given in the Dhammapada 371 When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (Mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of samatha] with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only thinking about Dhamma. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana. Relating this to the suttas there are hundreds if not thousands of suttas where the Buddha taught the way of insight into the khandhas (aggregates) ayatanas(sense fields) and dhatus (elements). I give one example: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.'End sutta _________ Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist sense. Robertk 46425 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 6, 2005 11:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 214 - Zeal/chanda (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] As we have seen, the same type of cetasika is very different as it accompanies different cittas. If we realize that cetasikas fall away immediately together with the citta and that the next moment another citta arises accompanied by other cetasikas, we will be less inclined to think that we own such qualities as energy, determination or enthusiasm. The more we study, the more will we understand, at least on the theoretical level, that all phenomena which arise are conditioned phenomena, saòkhåra dhammas. We still act and think as if there were a self, but as our confidence in the Buddha’s teachings grows, we will be inclined to develop the Path in order to directly experience that all phenomena which arise are saòkhåra dhammas, not self. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46426 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Howard, >Tep: (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of > beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or > persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, > you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be > surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of > persons. Read on. > > The Blessed One said, > "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be > said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- > aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a > clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, > monks, is called the burden. > > "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be > said. > This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called > the carrier of the burden. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-022.html ***** >Howard: I'm quite familiar with this sutta. There was a group, an offshoot > of the > Sarvastivadins I think, a few hundred years after the Buddha who took > this a > basis for a heretical self-view. I think that the author of the > Katthavatthu > may have discussed this. The "person" of this sutta is the conventional > person, > and no one denies such usage. ... S: Yes, I agree with all Howard's comments. There have been many posts on the Kvu chapter, Tep (see 'people' and Kathavatthu in U.P. if you have time). B.Bodhi also gives a long note in his translation here with more detail on the points Howard mentions. At the end, he writes: "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pa~n~natti) derivative upon (upaadaaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right. For the Theravada response, see the first part of Kvu, a lengthy refutation of the 'personalist' thesis." Also, he gives this commentary note: "Spk: Thus, by the expression 'the carrier of the burden,' he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it 'picks up' the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth." .... S: I think we should read suttas like this in the context of all the other suttas in Khandhasa.myutta which stress again and again that the only conditioned dhammas which exist at this very moment are the 5 khandhas, no separate person. SN22:94 Flowers: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." Metta, Sarah ======== 46427 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Howard (James & Tep). You were all having a good discussion on the 'agreed' and 'disagreed' points which I thought James listed very clearly and usefully. Howard disagreed with two of the 'disagreed points' here and clearly expressed his reasons for this. (I think my posts to Tep have also more than touched on the first one): --- upasaka@... wrote: > I do not agree with James' disagreement points 1 and 3. James, those > > points were as follows: > _______________________ > 1.Equates `self' with `beings or people who are seen'; according to K. > Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. <...> > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in > order to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her > statements that beings and people don't exist. > ----------------------------------------------- > > With regard to #1: What about the chariot metaphor for beings? The > analytical approach taken there is for the precise purpose of > demonstrating the > emptiness of conventional objects, and most especially persons. That is > what the > khandic and ayatana breakdowns are all about as well. > Certainly there is a convention to speak of beings, but what is > conventional speech is frequently not literal speech. As far as I'm > concerned, no > being/person "Howard C. Wasserman" is literally findable, but there are > fuzzy > mental collections of sights, sounds, etc, constructed in a variety of > mindstreams, > that, viewed as units, are CALLED "Howard". > As regards #3: Speaking of beings/persons is just meaningful > shorthand > speech. It is speech involving well-grounded concepts, that is, it is > the > expression of thinking that groups together genuinely related > experiences. ... S: The other two points which James raised after reading 'Realities and Concepts' which he disagreed with were: James: "2. 'Practice' consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that's a sure way to keep radio listeners!;-))" James: "4. Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas." .... S: I understand you all agree with these disagreed points ;-)). On the first one (2), I'd like to just comment that when we read about 'listening to the dhamma' or when K.Sujin stresses this aspect, it is a translation of suta-mayaa-pa~n~naa which precedes cintaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa. Without 'hearing' or coming across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and development (bhaavanaa). On the second point, I'd be glad to see the exact quote. In the meantime, from DN22: a)"There is, monks, this one way (ekaayano maggo) to the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and distress, for the disappearance of pain and sadness, for the gaining of the right path, for the realisation of Nibbana: - that is to say the four foundations of mindfulness (satipa.t.thaanaa)" and b)"And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Way of Practice Leading to the Cessation of Suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path, namely: - Right View,.......Right Concentration." Does this help, Howard (James & Tep)? Metta, Sarah p.s Very happy to be inundated with lots and lots of merry meditators and fellow robots:-)) ===================== ======== 46428 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 1:47am Subject: Discipline sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a bad rebirth in the immediate future.< .... S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). ... S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine and the discipline'. The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we really have a say in the matter. Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly pursuits. Satipatthana has to 'follow' what is conditioned, not the other way round. For myself, in terms of the practice or discipline, I don't really distinguish at all between so called frivolous activites or dhamma/discipline activities. I'm confident that in terms of namas and rupas, these boundaries don't exist and that having ideas about certain situations being preferable for such practice/discipline is a real hindrance. All our inclinations and tendencies have to be known for what they are when they arise....and this won't be by clinging on to the 'good' ones and having a lot of aversion about the 'bad' ones. On another note, I'm very glad to hear that you are attempting to mend your relationship with your parents, especially your father, Al. Of course, like with any close relationship, there will be ups and downs and I know it's very difficult in your case because of what you've been through. If we try to just be understanding and forgiving, it's a kind of dana. What's happened is all in the past and I'm sure they were doing what they thought was best, however misguided it might have been. Yes, we're all vey misguided, even after having had the opportunity to reflect a lot on the teachings. I think that when we can appreciate this, it's easier to have more compassion for others who are also so misguided. And, I agree with you, we really can't change other people. Developing more understanding of conditioned dhammas leads to greater metta, karuna and harmony, but slowly..... Yes, I saw the pic -- good one and thanks for adding it. I hope others follow your good example. Do you have a family pic for the significant others' album too? Metta, Sarah ========= 46429 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, (Nina, Howard, Dan & Jon at the end, oh and everyone else too!!) I had meant to add a little to this post of yours as well(#46025) --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" > and much > of its supplementary reading. > > One discourse in particular that has occupied some of my mind share > is the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), the layperson's code of discipline > . <...> > I don't think just being honest and truthful is enough to make things > OK between my father and I, who does not like my spiritual practise > and whom, since he put me in a hospital, I have had awkward and not > good relations with. .... S: I'm sure you've all had a really tough time and my sympathies go out to you all. Let us know how you get on in this regard. metta is the key, I think. ... > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi would recommend this sutta when > in the same book he undoubtedly teaches the four foundations of > mindfulness are to be practised continuously. I wonder if he wanted > us to use our judgement on this, or perhaps should I not even wonder > that, but know? .... S: The four foundations of mindfulness are to be practised in daily life. For lay people, this means in our home life, in our work, in our worldly responsibilities. .... > So lastly, I wonder if doing work, aside from being idle (which is > listed as an evil in this sutta), which for me means computer > programming, generates any kamma, and so, if I do it habitually, it > will help towards a more fortunate rebirth. It is said in the > sutta, "Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things > undone, the opportunities for good go past such men." ... S: I think this is such a good quote. It's so easy to make excuses to put off 'good' of all kinds. But the only opportunity is ever now at this moment, whether we're at work, communicating with family or whatever else. .... >So it seems > work is the crux of goodness in this sutta. Is it mere work that can > build one a 'shelter from anguish' as is described elsewhere in the > texts, and bring about a more fortunate rebirth, or is it just as I > might suppose, that doing work is just a central point (a somewhat > good thing, but not necessarily good in the sense of generating > kamma), for good, for treating others well? .... S: The 'good' comes back to the citta now, whether or not we're working. Taking responsibility so others don't need to be concerned about us, helping those around, fulfilling one's obligations and so on are all ways that lead to social harmony. (See 'laylife' in U.P.) ... >I find I am more 'good' > to my family when I am doing programming, which I guess makes me more > good in general. ... S: You're fortunate to have this great skill and by working and making your family happy, you will be doing 'good' and easing them of worrry and concern. As a result, you'll benefit a lot as well by taking care of worldly concerns and getting your worldly life on track (and hopefully out of the hospitals in future). ... > > I really could use some feedback on this matter, especially with the > last issue I brought up, because I ought to engage in some habitual > good kamma so I don't have to have so much fear of what might come > after this life, but be confident and accepting about it. .... S: This is just my view, but I think that if you're happily engaged in your work and dhamma pursuits when you have free time, there will be less inclination to fear and the confidence and acceptance (and joy of dhamma)will develop from seeing the application of satipatthana in your ordinary daily life. .... > > -A.L. (yes that new picture is of me, Spring 2003) ... S: the new pic of two years ago!!Thx again. ... > > P.S. I remember one of my old views, that I simply have computer > programming here, and can do this, and <...> > but I really don't think much of anymore the past year or > two. ... S: Good - it's gone. Let go of the burden.... > > Thanks much for the help!, ... S: Just keep writing to us all here, Al. When Nina and we visit New York, we'll look forward to meeting you too!! Metta, Sarah p.s Howard & Nina, Long Island - yes, Gatsby-land! Rob Ep always said he'd come to NY if we made it too....Who else? One of the Chucks? Maybe Larry, Lisa, James, even Tep?? It's sounding v.tempting. August, we've been planning on Australia, but it's winter Down Under and it could be NY instead...what d'ya reck'n Jon & all?:-)) Dan, Oregon is also appealing and I'd love to meet Connie too and see Mike again...next it'll have to be an around-the-world to celebrate Jon's retirement from Govt to keep him out of trouble;-). ====== 46430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, I just go to the end of your post. The texts given by Rob are worth considering. if there is anything you find doubtful, let us discuss it. It is an important topic. op 06-06-2005 21:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: T: Isn't contemplation of nama and rupa, or the five aggregates, by > means of the three characteristics, known as anupassana? > > "The seven contemplation's: > (1) Contemplating (formations) as impermanent, one abandons the > perception of permanence. . ------------ N: Yes, this is the development of vipassanaa. -------- > Nina: Jhaana also has the meaning of contemplation. > > Tep: So, is samatha same as vipassana? Or is "contemplation" so > broad that it covers both samatha and vipassana? ------------- N: When insight contemplates the three characteristics, it has been developed already to that degree. There is right understanding and right mindfulness, and also right concentration of the eightfold Path. This does not mean that the Buddha set a rule that everyone has to go apart and develop samatha to the degree of jhana first. Meghiya had to ask the Buddha three times permission to go apart. When he finally received permission he was overcome by lobha, dosa and moha. The Buddha also spoke about forest life as being not suitable for everyone. When one becomes frightened very easily by sounds, it is no good. Jhaana was praised by the Buddha as a high form of kusala, but one still had to develop insight lest there be a wrong interpretation of realities, and this is taking them for self. As I wrote to you before, there are three kinds of seclusion, viveka: kaaya viveeka (bodily seclusion), citta viveka (mental seclusion) and upadhi viveka (true calm of the arahat who is free from upadhi, substratum of rebirht). I like Rob's quote: This is the true inner calm. It reminds me of another sutta, "One Auspicious Night", where it is said: do not cling to the past which has gone already, nor to the future which has not come yet, but be aware now here, now there, of the present. How to be aware of the present? As Rob says, Contemplating impermanence is realizing the arising and falling away of nama and rupa that appear now. And paññaa will also be able to realize their dependent origination. But the beginning is: what is nama, what is rupa. Should we not discuss more about nama and rupa? What is your view about them? Nina. 46431 From: nina Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 164, Wrong View. Intro: Wrong view, di.t.thi, is a distorted view of realities, it interpretes them wrongly. It arises with four of the eight types of lobha-muulacittas, cittas rooted in attachment. When there is wrong view there is also clinging to that view. Wrong view is also accompanied by ignorance, moha. Wrong view is different from ignorance, but it is conditioned by it. Ignorance does not know the true nature of realities and di.t.thi has wrong view about it. **** Text Vis.: (xli) By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is 'wrong view'. -------- N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the nature of dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. ----------- Text Vis.: Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. -------------- N: The Tiika explains unwise adherence (ayoniso abhiniveso) as the wrong means and the wrong course. Dhammasangani (381) calls ditthi a "wrong road" and the Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains : ... From being not the right path, it is a "wrong path". For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path... --------- Text Vis.: Its function is to preassume (paraamaasa). --------- N: The Tiika explains paraamaaso, touching, being attached to (here translated as preassume), as going beyond [the real meaning of] the nature of dhammas and handle them as other (parato). Thus, it misinterpretes the true characteristics of dhammas. ---------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as wrong interpreting. -------- N: The Tiika states with regard to wrong interpretation (micchaabhiniveso, that by inverted grasp one imagines: ŒThis alone is truth, all else is vain¹ (³idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nan²ti). This is dogmatism which is classified as one of the four bodily ties (kaayaganthas). The Dhammasangani § 1139 explains that this includes taking the world for eternal, or not eternal, and believing that this alone is true and all else is falsehood. The same is said for the other kinds of wrong view regarding the world, the soul and the body. The Dhammasangani states: ŒAnd, excepting the bodily tie of perversion as to rule and ritual [wrong practice], all wrong views are included under the bodily tie of the disposition to dogmatize¹. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwillingness to see noble ones, and so on. It should be regarded as the most reprehensible of all. ------ N: The proximate cause of ditthi is "the desire not to see the ariyans". In the commentary to Mulapariyaya Sutta, Middle Length Sayings I, no. 1, (translated by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi in "The Root of Existence", The Mulapariyaya Sutta and its Commentarial Exegesis, BPS. Kandy, 1980), it is explained that "the desire not to see the ariyans", or being without regard for the ariyans, means that one does not realize the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa; that one does not attain the Dhamma attained by the ariyans. If one does not listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the "good friend in Dhamma" and does not apply what one hears, there are no conditions for the development of right understanding. Instead of listening to the right friend one may associate with the wrong person. As a consequence one accumulates more wrong view and this leads to many kinds of evil. Wrong view is to be considered as the highest fault. It prevents one from understanding the Buddha¹s teaching of anattaa. If one does not listen to true Dhamma as explained by the wise friend, Œpersonality belief¹, sakkaaya di.t.thi, cannot be eradicated. Personality belief comprises four kinds of wrong view with regard to each of the five khandhas: one takes them for self, or one sees the self as possessing them, or as containing them or as being contained in them. Thus, there are twenty kinds of personality belief. So long as one still believes in a self, one is bound to cling to speculative theories about the world, the soul and the body, about the past, about the future. One may cling to the view of Eternalism, the belief that there is a "self" who is permanent, or to the view of Annihilationism, the belief that there is a "self" who will be annihilated after death. In the Brahma-jaala-sutta ("The All-Embracing Net of Views", The Dialogues of the Buddha I,) sixty-two kinds of wrong view are mentioned. There are three kinds of wrong view which are very dangerous, they are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views: 1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-ditthi) 2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-ditthi) 3) There is no such thing as kamma ( akiriya-ditthi) When one does not see kamma as cause one does not see its result either, and when one does not see the result of kamma, one does not see kamma as cause either. As to the view that there are no causes (ahetuka-di.t.thi), this is the view that there is no cause for the depravity and purity of beings, that one is bent by fate, chance and nature. If one is firmly convinced about these three views they are unwholesome courses of action through the mind, and they lead to the commitment of many other kinds of evil deeds. One may not see the benefit of kusala such as generosity or siila, and one may not see the danger of killing, stealing and other evil deeds. So long as one has not become a sotaapanna, there is still the latent tendency of wrong view. Wrong view should be eradicated first, before the other defilements can be eradicated. So long as there is wrong interpretation of realities, one does not see defilements as conditioned dhammas, one takes them for self. They can only be eradicated by paññaa which sees them as they are. By the study of sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas we can be reminded that all these qualities are merely dhammas that arise because of the appropriate conditions. They are not abstract notions, they occur in daily life. If we remember that wrong view is the highest fault, there can be a sense of urgency to develop understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. This is the only way to see dhamma as dhamma, not a person, not self. ***** Nina. 46432 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry (*and friends of James) --- LBIDD@... wrote: > We could start with the first three on the 'agreement' side: > > 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. > > L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate > 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there > is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or > with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. ... S: This was sounding interesting and good til I got to the 'concept is intimation rupa':-/? ... > > 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. > > L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of > craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges > on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the > object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a > shimmery whiteness. .... S: I see your point, but I think we can say that attachment can arise so quickly, even before we have any idea of it. So even in the sense door process or the immediately following mind door process, attachment arises, long before there's any idea of what is seen. To give a more obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. Instant aversion, I think. .... > > 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes > can be > > L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? ... S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true natures. ... > > I basically agree with the rest of the agreements: > > 4.The Buddha had concepts as mental objects 5.The Buddha used concepts > to classify those dhammas which are sutta based 6.People should not try > to stop seeing conventional reality (concepts) .... S: You were the toughest reviewer of the points, Larry:-). .... > > DISAGREED POINTS: > 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to > K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this > thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings > don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, > but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the > suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined > `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. ... S: In the sutta I just quoted to Tep, "Flowers', it referred to what is said to exist and be impermanent as being the aggregates. Doesn't it follow from all these suttas that nothing else exists and is impermanent? .... > > L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism > and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, > continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three > aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply > walking. ... S: Yes, three aspects of reality. Not sure where the walking comes in:-/? .... > > 2.`Practice´ consists entirely of listening to the dhamma (that´s a > sure way to keep radio listeners! ;-)) > > L: I think K. Sujin's position is that 'practice' (aka development) is > the arising of virtuous consciousness and insight. There is no one who > practices (or listens). ... S: Right... .... > > 3.She states that one must know that there IS a being or person in order > to observe dana or sila- this is a contradiction to her statements that > beings and people don't exist. > > L: This relates to the _near_ paradox of impermanence, continuity, and > emptiness, with an emphasis on continuity. .... S::-/ I found Howard's answer a little easier to follow...Perhaps you can elaborate. Oh, Ok...got it...you're thinking of the quote in Vism about continuity and otherness and the illusion of a person? .... > > 4.Equates the Noble Eightfold Path, in its entirety, with the practice > of Satipatthana. This is a corruption of view of the Noble Eightfold > Path and doesn't correspond with the suttas. > > L: The Satipatthana Sutta says "this is the only way" and includes the > Noble Eightfold Path as an object of insight in various ways. ... S: Right, I just quoted from the SS. I wouldn't say the N8P is an object of insight, rather it is the way or Path and includes insight as the forerunner. Thx for your elaborations and also for some recent good quotes from the Vism, such as the timely 'puppet' one on the robot thread. Metta, Sarah *p.s oh that reminds me, robots can be frivolous too at times as well as short-circuiting -- so now we know about the accumulations here for seriously annoying robots, a starving artist, an emo kid:-)) and the schoolyard bully!!!, any more confessions???? =========== 46433 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! sarahprocter... Hi Venky, Many, many thanks for your great intro. --- vvk63 wrote: > I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . > > My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was > deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say > when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a > Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical > rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about > Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite > thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I > joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. > > Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . ... S: I hope we hear plenty more from you. Do you still live in Mumbai (India)? How did your family respond to your new viewing of all the rituals? This may be interesting to Andrew L and others too. How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? I'm grateful to Buddhanet.com for leading you here! Do you have a pic for the album too? Metta, Sarah ======== 46434 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #3 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Sorry for taking so long to get back to continuing my response. The whole family was sick with influenza and it was quite bad this time. :-( From the last post: ================================ Eznir: Would not a teacher comprehend the immaturity of a student and > instruct accordingly! Sukinder: How will he do that, and by what standard? I think only a Buddha is capable of such a thing. ================================== Eznir: > It's like training the mind of a child to do things that he would not > comprehend, but would appreciate their importance when he grows up. > You will observe here that the child needs to *do* those things if he > is to get enlightened! Sukinder: And like children we are suggestible and easily influenced, having accumulated so much wrong view and the necessary greed to drive us. And indeed we can grow up with the illusion of having "learnt" and "gained" something positive, when in fact what we really need, is the chance meeting with a "wise friend" who would show us our error. ;-) ======================== Eznir: > And his enlightenment is a result of having > done the right things at the right time - a matter of cause and > conditionality - and has nothing to do with self. Which the child did > not know at the time he was following the instruction of his parents > *when he was a child*. > > Thus a child outgrows his childness and becomes an adult. In much the > same way a Puthujjana would outgrow his 'puthujjana-ness' and become > a sotapatti. In the case of the child he acquires right experience > with right view at the right time and becomes a 'good' adult. In the > puthujjana he eradictes 'wrong experience' with right view at the > right time and becomes a sotapatti. The rightness of the view in both > cases is relative, in one it is to become a good adult- anuloma, the > other to become an Arahant hence patisotagami though he is not an > Arahant as yet and not patiloma as such but retardation has started > and he has still things to do (refer Kitagiri Sutta 70 in MN) Sukinder: Can you elaborate on this last part? I am not sure what it is that you are trying to tell me. ========================= > Sukin: Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone > approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with > relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not > the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? > .............................................. Eznir: > The craving that you refer to here can also be dhammachanda or > rightful wish which is skillful, except this 'craving' is different > to the craving to other things that are unwholesome, could this not > be so? It can be verified as to which kind of craving it is by > reflection. There is no self involved here, it is just a matter of > cause and conditionality as in the case of 'the child'. What you are, > whether a child or adult, puthujjana or sotapatti depends on ones > determinations/intentions - sankharas, which is either acquired or > eradicated. Sukinder: Of course, only the person will know if at the moment there is lobha or kusala chanda. Only he will know if the chanda is towards knowing the causes or that it is seeking after results. And if he expresses his views enough, I think others can come to know whether indeed there is `self' in the seeking. ========================== > Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be > reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can > understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? > .......................................... Eznir: > And when the teacher reminds the student about what indeed he > experienced in the moment, and thus when the student understands this > according to his 'accumulated panna', isn't this 'purposeful > observation' on the part of the student guided by the more > experienced teacher? Sukinder: As stated, `intention' arises with every citta. The particular aspect of `intention' which I object to, is the one associated with thoughts such as, "If I do ………, then sati and panna has greater chance of arising and being developed." And this includes, `purposeful observation'. Every moment conditions as sankhara a step towards more understanding or to more misunderstanding. When we hear a teacher talk dhamma, this can condition panna on any level, pariyatti, patipatti or even pativedha. But whatever the level, it is a conditioned dhamma already arisen and fallen away. No `self' any where to control anything. I think it is precisely the lack of understanding even on the intellectual level, that some would have the idea of `doing', upon hearing dhamma. ======================= > Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that > to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that > corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you > think? > ............................................ Eznir: > Some Dhammas are impossible to understand intellectually and these > others that you state here can be known. But how is a thing 'known' > really in a mundane sense? Doesn't this knowing imply a self? When a > thing is 'known' in the supramundane sense does it imply a self? If > not, what is the difference in these two 'knowings'? Sukinder: Good question, I think. I believe the accumulated sacca is very important here. Let us take `seeing'. Any uninstructed worldling will `know' this to the extent that he knows anything at all. Only he will not know that the knowing is conceptual and with `self'. When hearing about `seeing' as being an `element', not belonging to any `self', he may not agree with this and continue to believe that "he" is `seeing' and that what he sees as `people and things' are as real as he is. If however there is some accumulated panna, then perhaps he will accept the proposition (of elements), relating it to this present moment of seeing. But of course this may be followed by the intention of `looking' in order to really experience `seeing'. But this would be because of the yet weak pariyatti. Seeing after all cannot be made to arise by will, neither any sati nor panna to know that. So in fact here, the mode of seeing will be just the same as the uninstructed worldling and this need to be realized, i.e. the difference between, reality and concept. Another person may have satipatthana right away. In all this however, it is all about `conditioned' dhammas. In the first there is miccha ditthi and little chance of being corrected. In the second, the panna is still weak, but instruct able. In the third the panna is already strong but still not of the same degree as supramundane. But no `self' involved anywhere. The level of sati and panna is different, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Sakkya Ditthi will not know this and even for one who has heard the correct `theory', `self' does often come in to direct his path. It is here, that accumulated sacca helps. =============================== Continued in #4. Metta, Sukinder 46435 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I continue. =============================== Eznir: > Isn't it Saddha when you follow your teacher by doing this and that > as he says and eventually find your self confidence increasing > together with the confidence in your teacher! Would this be pointing > to a self? Note here that the 'self' in 'self confidence' is not the > usual rendering of the word. Sukinder: I think one distinguishing mark of a really good teacher, is that he or she will not encourage any blind acceptance of theory but instead would encourage the student to `see for himself'. This seeing may not be very deep, but proportionate to any accumulated understanding, however it is what a student will have to rely on. Any idea about following a `method' with future results in mind, is giving way to the illusion of result from the very beginning, relying on citta, sanna and ditthi vipallasa to do any assessment. ============================ Eznir: ........................................................... > "However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think > this is what influences us ultimately", how do you come to this > conclusion? No doubt during our long trek in sansara we would have > accumulated so much of 'wrong view'. Nevertheless, if we are resigned > to and are mindful of only this notion, 'right view' will never get > an opportunity to arise! Sukinder: I was trying to be realistic and not pessimistic. I am not denying the accumulated panna and other kusala. The arising of panna however, is not dependent on being optimistic or pessimistic. `Views' more importantly refer to how this present experience is interpreted and not what we tell ourselves about dhamma. ============================= > Sukin: I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the > idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the > many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of > days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, > the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain > experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to > observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at > nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. > ........................................................ Eznir: > The scenario given here is only possible between a mis-guided teacher > and a foolish student. If the teacher was genuine then the student > has misunderstood the teacher or if the students were intelligent > they should be able to see through the teachers ignorance. The suttas > give guidlines on how to gauge a good teacher (refer Vimamsaka Sutta > 47 in MN) Sukinder: Only panna can recognize panna. The weaker the accumulations, the longer time needed to make any correct judgement. Discussions are one sure way to know how correct or incorrect anyone's view is. If both student and teacher have wrong view, then that is what is going to develop, and wrong view does not know itself to be wrong. :-/ ===================================== > Sukin: But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never > the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, > then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the > real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone > does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. > ........................................ Eznir: > This is why a genuine teacher's guidance is needed to see that the > student is not misled. Sukinder: :-) And now we come back to the point of my letter. "What a beginner needs to hear". Does he need to hear about so called `meditation practice', or should he be directed to "dhamma", i.e. the dhammas which he experiences from morning till night, but of which he is completely ignorant? Is `practice' possible without knowledge of the dhammas to be known, including the dhamma, `patipatti' itself? I think it is most unfair that a beginner, not having a clear understanding about `practice' in the ultimate sense, is instead made to follow some conventional activity. And to then supplement this with theory is not helpful, wrong view would after all interpret any Dhamma accordingly. In other words, my position is that anyone who teaches formal meditation as a means of developing wisdom does not understand Dhamma. Also anyone who ties jhana practice with vipassana, he too does not understand what Dhamma really is. ================================== > Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas,...... > ............................... > > There is no one to control the Dhammas, *even in a Puthujjana*. It is > only certain akusala dhammas that led to the propogation of kamma in > a Puthujjana as did the kusala dhammas that led to the eradication of > kamma in an Arahat. In both cases there was no self involved! Sukinder: Yes, but some people do try to control dhammas and they do so in the name of right practice. They may call it `influence' or `creating better conditions' or whatever and say to the effect that what they do is the `Middle Way', but that is how the `self' justifies itself. ==================================== > Sukin: .....one has great chance of developing not only the > understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also > the knowledge of paccaya. > ................................................ Eznir: > By purposeful observation! Sukinder: No, never by purposeful observation. There are dhammas which condition an idea of `looking', if instead of insighting this, the attention goes to the projected idea, then we are forever chasing shadows only. ===================================== > Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing,..... > .................................................. Eznir: > I wonder how one pays attention to the present moment without being > purposeful! As you said earlier on, there are dhammmas arising all > the time. These dhammas do not arise without consciousness as a > support. And where there is consciousness there is intention or > purpose, the intended purpose for consciousness to *be*! And in that > moment, to the skillful, the dhammas are to be seen with the eye of > wisdom - paccattam vedi tabbo vinnuhi! Sukinder: Let me put it this way. There are only dhammas. With respect to `knowing', sometimes there is wrong understanding, sometimes there is right understanding. Wrong understanding does not know that it is wrong, right understanding knows whether it is of the intellectual, direct or the realization level. For most of us at most of the time, which is very little of the time, when there is awareness of what is going on, the level that we know it is the `thinking level'. Satipatthana, if ever it arises, cannot be more than just a single mind moment and most likely followed by akusala, in particular, lobha. I think we can really observe how pervasive ignorance is and how akusala in general is always there. Knowing this it is not surprising that Satipatthana must be a very rare occurrence indeed. Now, even when reading the dhamma, pariyatti arises relatively little, how can we assume that panna of patipatti, which is higher, will arise when we deliberately look? We should be careful not to jump to a conclusion about our `seeing'. It must be faulty!! I think it is dangerous to go around with the idea that one is developing sati and panna doing `formal meditation'. One tends to overlook the importance of pariyatti, which of course is a necessary for patipatti to arise in the first place. I know this saying that it is `hopeless' for the meditator. But who listens to me anyway. :-) Sorry to burden you with such a long reply, please do not feel obliged to respond. Metta, Sukinder 46436 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika philofillet Hi Nina, and all N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the nature of dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. Ph: What is the difference between this and the perversion of sanna (perception), which I think is called vipallasa or something like that? I know in the chapter on sanna, we discussed the perversion of perception that causes us to see the unbeautiful as beautiful, the impermanent as permanent, etc. Is vipalassa (?) related to wrong view? Thanks in advance, Nina. And hello in passing to Dan and others whom I will get back to when I have more time. Thanks to Howard for the Mel Brooks and Yentl quotes. There is a lot to reflect on in there.. Metta, Phil 46437 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:29am Subject: The opportunity - SN 35:135 philofillet Hello all I'd like to post a quick word of appreciation for the sutta entitled "The Opportunity" (Sn 35:135) It really encouraged me today. It teaches us that in hell, where there are only disagreeable objects, and in heaven where there are only deesirable and lovely objects, there is not the opportunity to live the holy life like there is for humans. From Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes, quoting a commentary: "It isn't possible to live the holy life of the path either in hell, because of extreme suffering, or in heaven, because of extreme pleasure, on account of which negligence arises through continuous amusements and delights. But the human world is a combination of pleasure and pain, so this is the field of action for the holy life of the path. The human state gained by you is the opportunity, the occasion, for living the holy life." Reflecting on this sutta this morning made my busy day feel quite rich and there was an intellectual appreciation for some disagreeable things, a kind of shallow equanimity or something. On the other hand I have learned that it is unwise to feel content with human rebirth, or heavenly rebirth, or anything short of the ultimate liberation. Metta, Phil 46438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 06-06-2005 17:56 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: > > Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how > pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter > the discipline all at once. ------------- N: We are not arahats yet, and thus, there are conditions for worldly life, worldly conversations. But we can make the most of it: developing understanding exactly in the midst of worldly life. Like life with your parents. As Sarah says, good if the relationship can improve. Indeed with metta and karuna and you will not regert that. If you knew what problems I had with my father. But some years before his death it all became better. Afterwards, when you become older, you see it all differently and better understand conditions for people's behaviour. Before long they are old enough to die and you may regret it if you did not make up. I never forget a lesson Kh. Sujin gave. In Sri Lanka we stayed with a lady who critized Kh Sujin and I remarked that she did not like us. She answered: it does not matter, we like her. That is metta without expecting anything. ------------- A: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil > because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it > that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be > evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of > fear?.... ---------------- N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala roots. Fear is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in moha, ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are rooted in lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some have moha, ignorance, as their only root. All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what has been accumulated in the past. ---------- A: If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem > I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop > indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of > technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. ----------- N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to be eradicated first. So long as you take craving for mine or self it is impossible to eradicate it. We live our life naturally, as Sarah explained. During computer activities, it is a good opportunity to know your own cittas. ---------- A: Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read > about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on > the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? ----------- N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are conditions kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, such is life. ------------ > Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that > is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the > Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. ----------- N: There is no 'we' who could add practice at will. There have to be the right conditions: first more intellectual understanding of what the objects of satipatthana are: whatever dhamma arises can be the object, also akusala dhamma. We should not despise that. We have to learn that everything is dhamma. ------------ A. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one > to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, > and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least > I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice > on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take > the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while > still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is > studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing > mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our > practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. -------- N:The lesson we also get from the sutta: know the citta that motivates kusala and akusala. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to know oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. -------- A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta > to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, > or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that > will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two > disciplines, it could be. ----- N: you wrote:< one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as painful>. That is not enough. More important: to know feelings as non-self. They are conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is taking over. Nina. 46439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika nilovg Hi Phil and Sarah, very good point, Phil. It made me think about the view to take for sukha that is dukkha. I found the solution in Nyanatiloka dictionary under vipallaasa and looked what the sotaapanna has eradicated. He has eradicated the view, ditthi, that dukkha is happiness and that unpleasant is pleasant. See below. op 07-06-2005 17:11 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the > nature of > dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. > It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. > > > Ph: What is the difference between this and the perversion of > sanna (perception), which I think is called vipallasa or something > like that? I know in the chapter on sanna, we discussed the > perversion of perception that causes us to see the unbeautiful as > beautiful, the impermanent as permanent, etc. Is vipalassa (?) > related to wrong view? -------- some, but not all. The classification by way of perversities is a different classification of defilements. four perversities of saññaa, four of citta, four of di.t.thi. These four are: to see what is impermanent as permanent, to see what is non-self as self, to see what is dukkha as happiness, to see what is not beautiful (asubha) as beautiful. This way of seeing can be done with saññaa, with citta and with di.t.thi. The Co. states that the perversity of saññaa is the weakest and di.t.thi is the strongest. All four connected with ditthi vippallasa are eradicated by the sotaapanna and also: the first two vippallasas (of saññaa and citta) that are seeing as impermanent as permanent, and seeing what is non-self as self. The reason is that these are also connected with wrong view. The sotaapanna has no more wrong view. Thus, some of the vipallasas are connected with ditthi and some are not. They go with clinging that is not associated with wrong view. See U.P. there are posts about it. Nina. 46440 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - In an earlier message I wrote to Nina, "My post is a reply to RobertK who does not believe in seclusion and jhana practice". And you corrected me, "...but I don't think I've ever said I don't believe in Jhana practice or seclusion? Do you have the post? I think there are a several posts where I talk about insighting the present moment - (ie, about seclusion in its deepest meaning)." No, Robert, I don't have such a post. My understanding has been influenced by our discussion in the past that you are a sukkha- vipassaka. But I have not heard of that "seclusion in its deepest sense". RobertK, quoting SN XXI.10 : "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." Tep: This sutta tells me that we probably are talking about the same seclusion (kaya-viveka, citta-viveka, upadhi viveka). I think the same result consists of detachment from alluring sensuous objects (bodily detachment) + inner detachment + detachment from all kilesas. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: 46441 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kenhowardau Hi Kel, You asked: ---------------------------- > How do you see this part from Vism. I 135: The Elder Sangharakkhita the Great, aged over sixty, was lying, it seems, on his deathbed. The order of Bhikkhus questioned him about attainment of the supramundane state. The elder said: 'I have no supramundane state'. Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth'. > ---------------- There are a lot of interesting points in there, but I assume you have something particular in mind. Do you see evidence of a conventional path to enlightenment? Sangharakkhita said to the young bhikkhu; " Friend, thinking to see the Blessed One Metteya, I did not try for insight. So help me sit up and give me the chance." To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a conditioning factor for enlightenment? Also, do you see a causal link between sitting and enlightenment, and if so, what is it? Ken H 46442 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 7:47pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK, Thank you for the lengthy quote, Robert. But I have no doubt about what meditation means; samatha meditation (to attain internal tranquility of awareness in the Dhamma-viharin Sutta), and vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa. The Visuddhimagga also expounds on the two aspects of meditation (see Part II and Part III), and it also give several suttas as the reference. I am curious about the words "paramattha dhammas" you added (inside the parentheses) after "khandhas": RobertK: Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita,... ... Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time (while He still lived)? RobertK: Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist sense. Tep: How did I fail your test? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > 46443 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. Here's a couple of words of explanation: J: 1.There is conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I think this formulation is problematical, especially if we equate 'conceptual' with 'conventional'. It makes more sense to me to say there is only one reality but two ways of interpreting it: with ignorance or with insight. It seems to me that concept is intimation rupa. ... S: This was sounding interesting and good til I got to the 'concept is intimation rupa':-/? --------------------------------- Larry: I'm taking 'concept' to be a word and a word is either a sound or visible data on a page. That's why it's problematical to equate 'conceptual' and 'conventional'. But even 'conventional' isn't a very satisfactory concept. A convention is an agreement but the sense of a whole isn't really an agreement. We can give a whole a name, like 'Hong Kong', but that doesn't make that whole, or sense of a whole, a name. Maybe instead of 'conventional' we could call this sense 'ordinary' or 'common' or something like that (deluded?). ------------------------------------- J: 2.Craving exists for both conventional reality and absolute reality. L: I would say conventional (deluded) reality is the only object of craving because craving arises with ignorance. If visible data impinges on the eye-door, is interpreted as water, and conditions desire, the object of desire is the illusion of water (a mirage) rather than a shimmery whiteness. S: I see your point, but I think we can say that attachment can arise so quickly, even before we have any idea of it. So even in the sense door process or the immediately following mind door process, attachment arises, long before there's any idea of what is seen. To give a more obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. Instant aversion, I think. ------------------------------------ Larry: Good example. I was just going on the logic that desire or aversion arises with ignorance so whatever is perceived is misperceived. Can desire or aversion arise without ignorance? --------------------------------------- J: 3.Concepts cannot be the objects of satipatthana, but mental processes can be L: How else will we know the true nature of concepts? ... S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true natures. ----------------------------- Larry: How do you know they are merely shadows of true natures? ----------------------------- J: 1.Equates `self´ with `beings or people who are seen´; according to K. Sujin, since there is "no self" there are no beings. Following this thinking, in order to believe in anatta we have to believe that beings don´t exist. This is a somewhat radical and also simplistic proposal, but, most importantly, this description of anatta cannot be found in the suttas and is directly contradictory to how the Buddha defined `beings´ as the five clinging aggregates. S: In the sutta I just quoted to Tep, "Flowers', it referred to what is said to exist and be impermanent as being the aggregates. Doesn't it follow from all these suttas that nothing else exists and is impermanent? L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply walking. S: Yes, three aspects of reality. Not sure where the walking comes in:-/? ------------------------------- Larry: Isn't there some sutta where the Buddha says something like 'don't say exists or not exists? The example of walking circles back to the first point (above) about wholes. A person or walking are examples of wholes. In a sense they are not 'really' objects of consciousness. Just as you can't actually experience (see, feel, etc.) Hong Kong, in the same way you can't actually experience a person or even experience walking. Yet, we do, undeniably. The impermanence and continuity of realities are fashioned into something without self-nature. For lack of a better word we call this something a concept. It is possible to directly experience this lack of self-nature. Observe yourself walking or look at your face in the mirror. If you look carefully you will see that there is nothing there. That is what I mean by insight into 'concept'. Apropos of our Vism. topic, ignorance, if, instead of seeing that there is nothing there, you see that you can't see, maybe that is insight into ignorance. If so, that places ignorance very close to wisdom: not seeing or seeing not. I'm not 100% sure this stuff makes sense but if you want to continue maybe we should start over. This thread is getting a little unwieldy. Larry 46444 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Actually Factual ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: This World is Messed Up! The Buddha once told a deity: This world is suffering from Death, Troubled by ageing, decay & sickness, Wounded by the Dart of constant Craving! Always is it burning with Desire & Lust... This world is addicted to Delight & Pleasure, Since dragged around by this urge, Craving must be cut, to break free from bondage and reach Nibbana... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46445 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear RobertK, > > > I am curious about the words "paramattha dhammas" you added > (inside the parentheses) after "khandhas": > > RobertK: Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e > paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend > Kotthita,... > ... > > Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" > too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas > given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time > (while He still lived)? > > RobertK: Without understanding what is paramattha and what is > concept I think very difficult to have wise attention to the lakkhana, to > understand what the phrase 'practice jhana' means in the Buddhist > sense. > > Tep: How did I fail your test? > ================= Dear Tep, You lost me here, was there a test? I don't think the term paramattha dhammas was used in the suttas, but it is common in the ancient commentaries of Theravada. In the homepage of this group it says "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, <...> and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition"". Thus defining terms according to the vocabulary of the ancients is permitted and indeed encouraged by the founders of the group. RobertK 46446 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kelvin_lwin Hi KenH and all, > KenH: To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense > (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a > conditioning factor for enlightenment? Kel: No, I'm not reading this too literally. I think this, however, goes to show it's insufficient to count on "conditions" only. There are other examples of where people have sufficient paramis but failed to attain enlightenment even during Buddha's time. There's also a part that says "Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth". I would think this fits "atapi sampajano satima" but he wasn't enlightened yet. It goes back to Howard's point about requiring "volitional action". Past conditions (paramis) plus the present action (bhavana) gives rise to enlightenment. If either one is missing then it's not going to happen. I think this highlights the need for intention and/or striving specifically toward enlightenment. > KenH: Also, do you see a causal > link between sitting and enlightenment, and if so, what is it? Kel: Of course it would be wrong to conclude sitting posture is required for enlightenment. However, it goes back to James's point about what is more conducive for an individual. Perhaps this elder has practiced while sitting a lot and didn't feel the current position (lying down) was as good. It begs the obvious question why didn't he just practice satipatthana anywhere/anytime as perhaps someone like him easily could. Either way, there seems to be a big role choices play into whether or not one is successful. - kel 46447 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 10:53pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > RobertK : In the Vimuttàyatana sutta, it says: > "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres > when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind > is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble > end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. > ....he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had > heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. > To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body > appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind > of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, > this is the fourth of the five releases" > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm > > Do you think the Bhikkhu above dwells in Dhamma? > > > Tep: Yes, of course, he does. However, you should note a few things > before jumping to a conclusion that " Aha! I too can 'think discursively > about the Teaching' that I have heard of and read about. Joy will arise > in me, etc., and my mind will achieve one-pointedness like this > Bhikkhu." The few things to think about are: > > 1. The sphere of releases is very advanced -- way beyond the level of > worldlings and trainers(sekkha). It is way beyond right concentration > (samma-samadhi, 4 jhanas) and right knowledge (samma-nana). As > stated in MN 117 : > > "> 2. The "thinking recursively" at right release(samma-vimutti) is way > beyond your and my level of thinking. > ============== Dear Tep, I agree that vimutti is beyond us right now, but I don't see thinking about the teaching (or the other 4 ways) as being recommended only for arahants here Indeed I think the sutta is indicating the 5 ways by which beings can gradually attain vimutti. Reflecting on the teaching can sound like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti. The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same - insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). Take the sutta I cited earlier: Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self.""endsutta. Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. Robertk 46448 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 7, 2005 11:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) contd] Questions i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda and lobha? iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform wholesome deeds? iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamånå cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say that the latter types are neither wholesome nor unwholesome? v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or píti can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards akusala and thus entirely different? vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the development of the Path? In what way? ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 46449 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH, Cooranites & all, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi all, > > My apologies for being so quiet over the past two or three weeks. I > have been inspired to respond to many messages, as usual, but the > responses have not been posted. So, without really knowing what it > is going to contain, I am determined to post this message regardless. ... S: Good to hear your deep reflections as usual. Chris, AndrewT, Steve, no questions, background humour or different viewpoints arising this time? .... > Nina and Sarah kindly asked about the recent Cooran meeting. One > particular snippet from it has come to mind many times. It was a > point about samadana sila - the resolution to follow sila, > including the precepts. I read out two posts from Sarah (44853 and > 44876) in which she quoted the Mahadhammasamadana Sutta. That sutta > explains that the third way of abstaining from misconduct causes us > to "experience grief and pain as a result" but ripens in the future > as pleasure. Sarah's examples were: ". . . by not harming insects, > one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or > our hypothetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a > result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very > generous but lost his wealth and suffered a lot." > > At first, I found it shocking that samadana sila - a kusala dhamma - > could cause grief and pain. But the important thing is, of course, > that it doesn't cause grief and pain by way of kamma, it does so by > way of natural decisive support condition. .... S: Yes, conditions are never simple. Good can condition bad by this condition and vice versa. Also, of course, akusala kamma can bring its result anytime with the support of this condition again. Without a basic understanding of kamma, it can seem that good acts bring bad results and so on, but this is wrong. As Nina’s post on wrong view (di.t.thi) in the Vism series stressed, wrong view about kamma is the most dangerous, because if one doesn’t have confidence in the connection between good deeds and results, one can do anything. .... > > Another initial inclination was to flatly reject any ability to > know, in conventional terms, what has been caused by what. But then > I had to admit; if the place is over-run by cockroaches, it is > because we didn't control them. If we bang our head against a brick > wall, we can safely assume that our sore head - and all the blood - > was caused by banging our head against a brick wall. This is > blatently obvious to most people, but not so to an Abhidhamma > extremist. :-) .... S: These examples are correct conventionally and according to our worldly understanding, but of course in terms of kamma and vipaka, the cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is never ‘the cockroaches’, ‘the person (ourselves or another) banging our head against a brick wall’, ‘the pilot’,‘the doctor’ or ‘the patient’. When we give these examples, they are long, long stories about so many different realities as you explained before. ..... > > I also had to back down on some of my earlier, inflammatory, > statements (to Azita and Rob K) in which I claimed that uninstructed > worldlings could never know when an activity was kusala or akusala. > Clearly, we can be pretty near certain that some conventional > activities are unwholesome. There, I've said it! :-) .... S: I think we can speculate and make a few assumptions and that’s about all. How difficult it is to know our own cittas at anytime, let alone another’s. For example,we know that when a gift is given, there must some dana or generosity involved, but it might be very, very slight, in spite of the ‘appearance’. I was given a lot of gifts from my students at the weekend which I truly appreciated but didn’t wish to keep, apart from one or two very small ones. So I passed on several larger ones which I’d never use to my p/t helper and she was delighted and thanked me profusely for my apparent kindness. In fact, there was very little generosity in my act, primarily concerned with clearing up the place after the party and avoiding extra clutter. Similarly, someone might kill a small, injured insect, fulfilling all the qualifications for akusala kamma patha, but without any premeditation or thoughts of dosa afterwards. Another might restrain but have lingering resentment lasting a long time over some trivial incident, but without any show. Who can judge? .... > > Now it is time for a walk along the beach (no surfing because the > waves are as flat as a pancake). I will be taking my new Portable > Mp3 player, on which is loaded "Benares 1 & 2." > See you later, and thanks for all the posts. ... S: That’s great news (the mp3 I mean). Now you can put those flat days to good use too:-). Mind you, I’m sure your flat days would look like great waves at Big Wave Bay in Hong Kong where we go most Sundays and only a few times a year see anything resembling Bondi. As for your reference to a lack of conciliatory style in another post – well, I’ve heard people complain when K.Sujin doesn’t appear to be conciliatory or to compromise at all. But isn’t that the strength of the Dhamma? Of course, we can speak with gentleness and metta whilst not compromising our understanding of the Dhamma.....Or again, we may ‘judge’ the situation and see others as being ‘stubborn’, ‘dogmatic’ and so on, but can only know our own intentions at such times. Back to wisdom and sincerity. Look forward to any more waves or flat day reports from Down Under. Metta, Sarah p.s glad to see you discussing the interesting Vism quote Kel raised. ======= 46450 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sara, > > When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread > (I will try to remember names next time). > > When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I > thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. ... S: Well, that gave me two clues:-). Larry & Howard. ... > I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was > listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this > group is isolated to the Theravadan version). > > > You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and > nibbana. This is the > same as the khandhas and nibbana." > > By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical > bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and > that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan > abdharama? .... S: Yes. Not just according to the Abhidhamma, but according to the Tipitaka and to what can be directly realised. btw, you've translated rupas as 'form/physical bodies' and sankhara khandha as 'intellect'. What do you understand by these terms or realities? Metta, Sarah ======== 46451 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? sarahprocter... Hi Charles, You wrote several posts addressed to Htoo, but he said he won't have internet access for several months, so you may wish to make a note of your posts and re-send them on his return. Let me just comment on a note in this one which was also addressed to me: --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah & Htoo > > Sarah, When Htoo stated: > > "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment > events." > > You replied with: > > "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or > akusala?" > > Htoo then replied with: > > "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of > ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage > of the whole circle temporarily." > AND > "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa > and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and > this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of > satipatthaana." > AND > "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." > > I have to ask and state: > > What is Satipatthaana? .... S: The path which leads to the eradication of ignorance through awareness and understanding of realities. .... > And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am > off base: > > Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still > events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO > continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated > (give rise to other events). ... S: Yes I think I agree (though I'm not sure about the use of 'events'), no new fuel, however. Also, when ignorance is completely eradicated, no further rebirth at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 46452 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Golden Statues? sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > During my recent dhamma studies, I came across some information that > has given me pause to think. I would like some feedback if possible. > From Nibbana.com: > > Asannasatta Brahmas > <...> > James: Now, the issue or question I have is that according to Buddhist > texts it is the re-linking consciousness which determines a being's > next birth, but if Asannasatta Brahmas have no consciousness > whatsoever what is supposed to determine the next birth? I can > imagine beings without bodies but I have a hard time imagining beings > without minds. Any answers, anyone? ... S: It is difficult. Further to Howard's and RobK's comments, you may also like to review these posts: Asannisattas (Non-percipient beings, i.e without cittas) 41065, 41101, 41124, 41138, 42545 It helps me a little to reflect that rupas are not just produced by citta and nutrition, but can also be produced by kamma and temperature too. This is another of Htoo's favourite topics...:-). Let us know how your reflections are going. I thought you raised good questions. Metta, Sarah ========= 46453 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 164 and Tiika sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Phil, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil and Sarah, > very good point, Phil. > It made me think about the view to take for sukha that is dukkha. I > found > the solution in Nyanatiloka dictionary under vipallaasa and looked what > the > sotaapanna has eradicated. He has eradicated the view, ditthi, that > dukkha > is happiness and that unpleasant is pleasant. ... S: yes, as you said, more under 'vipallasa' in U.P. As for the perversion of sanna, this arise with every akusala citta. So as soon as there is just a little attachment to what is seen, there is perversion of sanna (and citta). It seems desirable when really it's not. So most of the day is spent with perverted perception of reality. Ditthi actually 'distorts' as the quotes mentioned. 'The inverted grasp'. (I was glad to read the Tiika notes, Nina, as so often the comments about 'this alone is the truth, all else is vain' and references to dogmatism are taken erroneously as referring to any views, right or wrong. I'll be requoting from these notes!). .... > These four are: to see what is impermanent as permanent, to see what is > non-self as self, to see what is dukkha as happiness, to see what is not > beautiful (asubha) as beautiful. > This way of seeing can be done with saññaa, with citta and with > di.t.thi. > The Co. states that the perversity of saññaa is the weakest and di.t.thi > is > the strongest. ... S: yes, they remind me of the opposites at the beginning of ch X1V on sanna, citta and panna and the similes of the knowledge of the child, woman and money-changer. .... Phil, yes, like you mentioned Howard as saying, metta for all situations and karuna just when one sees someone's discomfort or difficulty, like a man on the top of some nasty spikes:-). I have to tell you that we've never experienced such kindness as we did from complete strangers in Japan on a walking trip there years ago. At the time, Japan was very expensive and we were living on station noodles and certainly avoiding taxis. I still remmember the kind old man who took pity on us with our back-packs and maps at Kyoto station and how he inisted on putting us in a taxi and taking us to an inexpensive hotel. And then all the people who drew us beautiful little diagrams and instructions and the bright plastic umbrellas which would appear anytime it started raining anywhere.... Thanks also for your good wishes and I hope you find the productivity you'd like....As I said to Al, satipatthana can develop either way:-). On TVs and K.Sujin's comments you quotes from years ago, Nina. I used to be so struck when I stayed with her and her father by her simple and ordinary her lifestyle wasnthen -- checking the morning radio program, getting dressed, telephone calls, breakfast, supervising her maid, going out with her father -- shopping, restaurant and so on. Sometimes a film, scrabble with her sister, newspapers, visitors, news programs, checking references for her lecture..... Even in India, we'd get back to the hotel from a visit to the holy places and she'd ask me or someone to help her find a news channel on tv to watch.... Visible object is visible object, hardness is hardness....attachment is attachment... "Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anatta." "...One stops doing anything". yes, life becomes very simple and uncomplicated when understanding begins to grow of dhammas as anatta. Tears -- listen to the last track (Calcutta section) in India 2004. I think it's Azita who raises your same question. Brief answer about how again we think of a 'situation' and only panna can know the reality at such a time, as Nina said. Btw, I read and appreciated the sutta, 'Bondage' you gave a link to (#36952) and also your nice little post on 'The Opportunity'. Thank you for that. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, 4 right efforts -- India 2001, KS is referring to the development of all 4 at moments of satipatthana and fulfillment with lokuttara cittas I believe....you mention that references to the 4 rt efforts also refer to other kusala which I understand, but when all 4 are being developed and references are to this (as under 4NT), I thought it was just to satipatthana? I'd be interested in any other references or clarification. A difficult area, I think. 46454 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 > Malunkyaputta Sutta .... S: I consider this to be a very valuable sutta as well and appreciated all your comments on it, Howard and also Tep's summaries. As you said, it’s very similar to the lines in the Bahiya sutta- “...in the seen there will be merely the seen....etc”. Tep, whether we refer to ‘the seen’ as ‘the seen’, as ‘visible object’ as ‘rupa’ or as ‘paramattha dhamma’, does it make any difference in your mind? If there is awareness of ‘the seen’ or the other dhammas mentioned, no names are necessary at all. We just use them for communication purposes only, wouldn’t you agree? I have a question to you both. At the beginning of the sutta, we read: > Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed > One > and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting > there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the > Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from > the > Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & > resolute." .... S: BB gives almost the same translation for the last line: “...I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.” (Pali: eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyanti”) And after hearing the Buddha’s advice about developing mindfulness, seeing dhammas for what they are, not being overwhelmed by attachment and thus becoming dispassionate and realizing nibbana, Malunkyaputta takes his leave and dwells alone etc, develops the highest wisdom and becomes an arahant. My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? One would assume that when it’s a reference to living as one (eko), that it is to physical seclusion, but this is a standard phrase in many of the suttas in this section of Salayatanasamyutta and perhaps, like it is clearly indicated in the Migajala sutta I recently mentioned, ‘eka-vihaariiti’ or living alone or on one’s own, clearly refers to the mental states of the one for whom craving as partner has been abandoned. Tep, I’m greatly appreciating your discussions with Rob, Nina and others on this topic. It’s often not easy at all, I find, to know exactly what’s being referred to. I actually appreciate your comments and perseverance on this topic a lot. We all learn from it. Please use whatever language you find helpful. You also mentioned to Howard that you appreciated his precise understanding in his analysis of the Malunkyaputta Sutta. You further wrote that ‘the difficulty is seen in successful implementation in the present moment.’ I think this is exactly right. Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 worlds, ‘atapi sampajanno satima’ can arise and develop instantly, being aware of one such dhamma at a time. I believe this is the way that we can really learn to understand what the meaning of viveka* or seclusion is. Are we all on the same track here so far? (btw, your Thai translation looked fine- v.helpful anytime you give notes from the Thai sutta or commentaries. (Also, thank you for adding Han Tun’s helpful notes on the Pali terms in the other thread). .... Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, 73,’Dhamma-viharin Sutta’– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu who ‘neglects seclusion...’. The Pali here for seclusion is ‘ekii bhaava”n vissajjeti’,‘lit: being alone, setting free’, I think. Perhaps this also refers to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of ‘the seen’ and so on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of freedom. B.Bodhi’s note on this part of the sutta: “It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, ‘Five Bases of Liberation’] the first four items are designated ‘bases of liberation’ and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.” In other words, we’re back to the important reminders about right handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that one should be in physical seclusion and far away from one’s books, teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? Of course, when there is any stage of insight attained, concentration and wisdom are yoked as you imply. There is ‘internal tranquillity’ too with each moment of awareness, regardless of whether samatha has been developed to the level of jhana or not, as I understand. Just as you say, as we learn to live alone or in ‘seclusion’, ‘lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem’. In other words, by living alone as islands with the ‘seen’, ‘heard’ and other dhammas, we can see that everything we find so important and precious comes down to these transitory, unsatisfactory dhammas or elements.....no self, no person at all. Thank you both for helping me to reflect further. Metta, Sarah *more on viveka, seclusion, solitude etc under ‘Solitude’ in U.P. ================================== 46455 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:06am Subject: Kel's question. / was Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / kenhowardau Hi Kel, ---------------- K: > Of course it would be wrong to conclude sitting posture is required for enlightenment. However, it goes back to James's point about what is more conducive for an individual. Perhaps this elder has practiced while sitting a lot and didn't feel the current position (lying down) was as good. It begs the obvious question why didn't he just practice satipatthana anywhere/anytime as perhaps someone like him easily could. ----------------------------- As I understand the story you have quoted, Sangharakkhita had been practising satipatthana for a long time. He practised it in the course of every activity of his daily life and that was why he was able to say, "Friends, I see no action done [by me] without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth". (From what you said earlier in this post, I think (not sure) that you would agree with this.) However, Sangharakkhita had not attained any stage of enlightenment. This was because he had an overriding ambition to pay respect to a Tathagata - and that required an extremely long wait (for Buddha Metteya) in samsara. Does that mean he had control over dhammas and could intentionally affect the non-arising of Magga-citta? No, it couldn't mean that. I think it meant there was an imbalance of faith over wisdom. How could Sangharakkhita have complete dispassion for, and renunciation of, conditioned existence when he knew that same conditioned existence was essential for his [kusala] ambition? Getting back to the beginning of your post: ------------------------ > KenH: To your mind, does that mean that 'trying' in the conventional sense > (not in the sense of the conditioned dhamma, samma-viriya) is a > conditioning factor for enlightenment? Kel: No, I'm not reading this too literally. I think this, however, goes to show it's insufficient to count on "conditions" only. ------------------------- But, Kel, there are only conditions (i.e., there are only conditioned dhammas). Can you count on anything apart from conditions and have right understanding at the same time? ----------------------------------------------- K: > Either way, there seems to be a big role choices play into whether or not one is successful. ----------------------------------------------- Either way (i.e., whether we believe it or not) there are only dhammas. A choice can *seem* to be made: e.g., we can pick up a pencil or not pick up a pencil - and Sangharakkhita could attain enlightenment or not attain enlightenment - but that is conventional reality. We mustn't import conventional reality into our understanding of the Dhamma. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there is no "choice" involved. Sangharakkhita would have known that beyond doubt. Even though you and I don't know it beyond doubt, the dhammas that arise whenever we are "making a choice" are still governed entirely by conditions. ------------------------ K: > Past conditions (paramis) plus the present action (bhavana) gives rise to enlightenment. If either one is missing then it's not going to happen. ------------------------ Hmmm, since when has bhavana been translated as "present action?" :-) Bhavana is panna, and it culminates as supramundane panna (of the Eightfold Path). But I agree, panna cannot be developed unless the paramis are also developed. ------------------------------------------------ K: > I think this highlights the need for intention and/or striving specifically toward enlightenment. ------------------------------------------------ There are suttas that specifically rule out the efficacy of striving towards enlightenment: it is a symptom of eternity belief. Wanting a happy rebirth, one strives for kusala kamma - believing in rebirth- in-Nibbana, one strives for enlightenment. There is no need to reintroduce striving as an additional factor leading to enlightenment. Just remember; there are only dhammas. :-) Ken H 46456 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! vvk63 sarah abbott wrote: Hi Venky, Many, many thanks for your great intro. --- vvk63 wrote: > I am venkatesh Male have completed 42 revolutions around the Sun . > > My interests are basically to know what I am all about. Though I was > deeply impressed by Hinduism initially when I came to my senses (say > when I was 8 to 9 years) ardently following the rituals being born in a > Brahmin family. I began to realise the futility of the mechanical > rituals and blind beliefs and worships, hence I began to read about > Buddhism and to begin with Zen ( 1986 onwards ) but still I was quite > thirsty and was looking out for the right sort of quenching . Then I > joined the Diploma in Buddhism and Vipasanna in Mumbai University. > After I started Vipasanna my thirst has found a solution and now it is > upto me as to how to quench and realise who am I. > > Surfing through Buddhanet.com I came across this studygroup . .V-. Thanks! for your response. I live in Mumbai with my parents, wife Hema nad two kids- my daughter Vibha (12 yrs) and son Varun (8 yrs). Well my family are habituated with rituals and I do not try to reason out with them as I feel self realisation is the best realisation. I do express my ideas when asked but I am happy that they have accepted what I am now because especially my parents, who are orthodox , it was difficult for me intially to explain the change in my lifestyle pertaining to the rituals. Well the major change came to me when I did Vipasanna at Igatpuri Centre of Shri.Goenka . It was 10 days residential course in Nov.'04 following the Noble Eightfold Path of Sila , Samadhi and Panna . S: I hope we hear plenty more from you. Do you still live in Mumbai (India)? How did your family respond to your new viewing of all the rituals? This may be interesting to Andrew L and others too. How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? The basic need was calming of the mind which is still bit difficult but with regular meditation in the morning and evening , am able to maintain the calmness for sometime. I understand by Vipasanna is to view things in their dhamma nature e.g the dhamma of fire has been ,is and will be to burn. It is the perceptions which create differences and differences disturbs harmony . Well thats again my perception isn'i it? I'm grateful to Buddhanet.com for leading you here! Do you have a pic for the album too? I will scan and add it Metta Venky <...> 46457 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:43am Subject: 'Metta' sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Prompted by your enquiries, Alan W (of Zolag) sent us a text copy of A.Sujin's book 'Metta' which we've put in the 'files' section for the time being until he reloads a copy onto Zolag. Look forward to any parts anyone finds helpful or wishes to discuss. Metta, Sarah ===== 46458 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/8/05 1:54:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. ====================== I agree that the objects of insight are the elements of "the all" - they are, in fact, the only actually occurring phenomena. They do, of course, include mental operations, and among those are the thought-operations of vitakka and vicara, feeling, and the various sankhara, including emotions. When one is an advanced practitioner, one directly discerns these phenomena, face-to-face as it were. But prior to that, they are seen, as is almost everything, though a veil, a conceptual overlay. The neophyte does not to any significant extent have these phenomena as objects of insight, but, instead, is building towards that. One begins where one is, not where one would hope to be. Eventually, with sufficient practice, cultivation and transformation occur, the mind is refined, and the obscuring veil is slightly lifted, which enhances the clarity of vision, leading to further mental cultivation, and, in that way, step by step, the practice becomes more and more a true practice of seeing what actually is and *how* it is. That the conceptual veil, the obscuration process, needs to be lifted is a certainty. That being said, I don't think the Buddha taught the distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." Instead, such distinguishing grows out of the practice of *looking* to see as clearly as possible, at any given time, what it is that is actually happening at the moment. And I do not think that the concept/reality dichotomy was the main thrust of the Buddha's teaching, though there are a few places at which the Buddha spoke of the distinction, for example in the Uraga Sutta and the Kalakarama Sutta, and implicitly in the Bahiya Sutta. He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are seen more in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the "real" practice has begun. This is my perspective. With metta, Howard . /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46459 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/8/05 6:22:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: I have a question to you both. At the beginning of the sutta, we read: > Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, who was ardent & resolute, went to the Blessed > One > and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting > there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the > Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from > the > Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & > resolute." .... S: BB gives almost the same translation for the last line: “...I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.â€? (Pali: eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyantiâ€?) And after hearing the Buddha’s advice about developing mindfulness, seeing dhammas for what they are, not being overwhelmed by attachment and thus becoming dispassionate and realizing nibbana, Malunkyaputta takes his leave and dwells alone etc, develops the highest wisdom and becomes an arahant. My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? ============================ I understand the seclusion intended to be twofold: 1) the conventional, bodily seclusion, which is very supportive, and 2) the deeper "internal seclusion" that leads to a sustained state of deep tranquillity and clarity, transforming the mind. BTW, it is clear to me from this material that in all likelihood, Malunkyaputta was already an ariyan prior to this "seclusion". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46460 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:28am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi Sarah, In a longer thread, I like your phrasing: "Without 'hearing' or coming across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and development (bhaavanaa)." Just two quick questions: 1. Is what one hear "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, say, what they had when they were six years old? Dan 46461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Dear Tep and Rob K, I would like to add a little to your discussion about paramattha dhammas. >> Tep : Did the Ven. Sariputta call khandhas "paramattha dhammas" >> too? Were these words, paramattha dhamma, well known in the suttas >> given by the Buddha and other arahants during the Buddha's time >> (while He still lived)? ------- N: I would like to use a quote from Rob Edison, now Ven. Dhammanando: Rob Ed: “Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to say, the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different terms. "What the Commentaries call conventional truth (sammuti-sacca), the Suttas call 'worldly consensus' (lokasamañña), 'worldly language' (lokanirutti), 'worldly usage' (lokavohaara), or 'worldly convention' (lokapaññatti). "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta) ------- N: I would like to quote from Kindred Sayings I, Sagaathaavagga, 3, Sword suttas, 25, the Arahat (B.B. Connected Discourses): ..."If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, 'I speak', And he might say,'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expresions." ---- Note: Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. Spk: "Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a self, they do not violate conventional discourse by saying,'The aggregates eat, the aggregates sit, the aggregates' bowl, the aggregates' robe'; for no one would understand them."... --------- N: At the moment we study with Larry sankhaarakkhandha, all those cetasikas (except feeling and saññaa) that can accompany citta. This study helps us to see that they are mere elements that mutually condition one another. Kusala citta that is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas and supported by them arises just for a moment and then falls away, it is impermanent. Akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas such as lobha, dosa or moha. All these cetasikas have their own characteristic. They are not persons, not a self. They are cetasika, they are dhammas or elements. The Tiika text often refers to them as to 'this dhamma', so dhamma. We do not have to call them paramattha dhammas, we can also call them dhammas, they are devoid of self. This study helps us to go more deeply into the meaning of what ultimate realities are, different from conventional notions such as person, animal, tree. Nina. 46462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: four right efforts nilovg Dear Sarah, I am not sure whether it is only in satipatthana. Perhaps Dispeller gives more references? Nina. op 08-06-2005 10:28 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Nina, 4 right efforts -- India 2001, KS is referring to the > development of all 4 at moments of satipatthana and fulfillment with > lokuttara cittas I believe....you mention that references to the 4 rt > efforts also refer to other kusala which I understand, but when all 4 are > being developed and references are to this (as under 4NT), I thought it > was just to satipatthana? I'd be interested in any other references or > clarification. A difficult area, I think. 46463 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you quote Ven Dhammanando on the following: "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha-sacca) Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) =========================== This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. I wonder if you or anyone else on the list can locate this and provide the context. I would be most appreciative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46464 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? onco111 Howard, Google is a wonderful tool. I didn't have time to read through the page, but here's a link to ATIs version of the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html PTS lists it as MN.i.135. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you quote Ven > Dhammanando on the following: > > "What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense (paramattha- sacca) > Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously when > the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." (saccato > thetato). > > E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > Belongs to self...." > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > =========================== > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. I wonder if you or > anyone else on the list can locate this and provide the context. I would be > most appreciative. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 46465 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant Hi, Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > op 06-06-2005 17:56 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@g...: > > > > Again, I have difficulties between how 'worldly' I want to be, how > > pious, how I want to leave frivolous conversation behind and enter > > the discipline all at once. > ------------- > N: We are not arahats yet, and thus, there are conditions for worldly life, > worldly conversations. > But we can make the most of it: developing understanding exactly in the > midst of worldly life. I'm with you on this one, Nina, with one exception. Let me describe it. First of all, a little background info. When I first started practising insight meditation about this time in 2003, I was doing very well with it. I would take meditative walks, and at some points was able to see myself or my emotions as just energy. Then I began having some difficulties in practise, and results stopped, insight stopped. I felt a little bit 'out' of the discipline. Around this same time, I began smoking cigarettes. This brings me to today, where my meditation is not as good as it was in former times. Now, I have done some development of satipatthana, enough so that with the correct reflection or meditation, upon leaving my house, I can sort of feel in a transcendent manner, going through the world but not participating in it. 'Crossing over,' as it were. This 'mode' of behavior, in previous times, could be triggered by a good meditation session, which was common. So no big deal there. But now, it's much harder to have this mode. It has returned to me on a few occasions, namely after giving a material item to someone as generosity, and upon doing some self-reflection one day before program. Maybe satipatthana is the wrong word. Transcendence? I've done both so I could sort of get it together. The point is, it's rare for this state to manifest nowadays, and I can't summon it at will. When I am in it, I feel that I am my own, righteous man, who is unfortunate in that he lives with his parents. I used to get this state more often, and I would realize I could do recollection of the devas to foster rapture and calm and so forth, if I knew I would be able to be reborn there myself were I to die soon. However, I do not think that is the case, so I have thought I needed to build myself a 'shelter from anguish' as it is described in the texts. That means working. Unfortunately, when I get home, I don't serve myself well, if at all. If I could keep righteous behavior here and do that little thing for myself, or even foster the development of conviction, I would be a righteous man, eventually able to see the noble truths with "discriminating wisdom" (see Ratana sutta). But I digress. If i could be this way through reflection again, and serve myself, I think I would be walking a straight course and not have to engage in trying to understand myself in worldly activities at all. > Like life with your parents. As Sarah says, good if the relationship can > improve. > Indeed with metta and karuna and you will not regert that. > If you knew what problems I had with my father. But some years before his > death it all became better. Afterwards, when you become older, you see it > all differently and better understand conditions for people's behaviour. > Before long they are old enough to die and you may regret it if you did not > make up. > I never forget a lesson Kh. Sujin gave. In Sri Lanka we stayed with a lady > who critized Kh Sujin and I remarked that she did not like us. She answered: > it does not matter, we like her. > That is metta without expecting anything. It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life is short for all of us) > ------------- > A: Is it that action motivated by the four ways is inherently evil > > because of the intentions (say, done with akusala citta), or is it > > that these are merely ways that one might committ what else might be > > evil, say, stealing something out of attachment, or lying out of > > fear?.... > ---------------- > N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala roots. Fear > is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in moha, > ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are rooted in > lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some have moha, > ignorance, as their only root. > All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what has been > accumulated in the past. Nina I don't think you really answered the question but I'm not sure if it would help anyway. You say all akusala is rooted in these four things, but are these four things always akusala? Is it that that is the 'evil' nature of acting of them, or is it merely that it is through these four that we do other evil deeds, so say, acting out of fear to save one's life might be acceptable, whereas if it were just that acting out of fear is akusala, we should not do it so as to not develop any akusala. (Sort of like the Buddha telling his disciples not to break their virtue even if their life is in jeopardy.) > ---------- > A: If it is the former case, which I tend to think it is, it would seem > > I should be reading my dharma books a little bit less and stop > > indulging on computer activities (visiting various web sites of > > technology, politics, and discussion) out of craving. > ----------- > N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to be > eradicated first. So long as you take craving for mine or self it is > impossible to eradicate it. We live our life naturally, as Sarah explained. > During computer activities, it is a good opportunity to know your own > cittas. Perhaps. Maybe we can get started helping me learn cittas again? If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of attachment. Well, I guess what that means is that I still do have wrong view. :P Sounds good. > ---------- > A: Also, that is the case, exactly what is it that we act of to read > > about dharma, study suttas, and do good things such as reflecting on > > the precepts we've taken to observe sila, or doing meditation? > ----------- > N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are conditions > kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, such is > life. OK, but what is the cause for us to do these good deeds? Reading suttas, for example? If it is done out of a sense of duty or discipline, perhaps out of wholesome desire, it is not akusala. Basically if I don't want to read Digha Nikaya because I like it (don't want to act out of attachment), what better root can there be to motivate me to read it? > ------------ > > Perhaps adding some dharma practise to this code of discipline, that > > is, four foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness meditation, or the > > Noble Eightfold Path can fit into the picture too. > ----------- > N: There is no 'we' who could add practice at will. There have to be the > right conditions: first more intellectual understanding of what the objects > of satipatthana are: whatever dhamma arises can be the object, also akusala > dhamma. We should not despise that. We have to learn that everything is > dhamma. > ------------ > A. The sutta in question, the sermon the Buddha gave, leads one > > to perform activities that will result in well-being in this life, > > and to acheive a rebirth in the heavenly world. So we (or at least > > I, or at Bhikkhu Bodhi's implicit instruction) may take much advice > > on how to live from this sutta, how to keep our relations good, take > > the advantages that can be had by following this discipline, while > > still leaving room in our lives for dharma practise, whether it is > > studying namas and rupas, learning about the dharma, or doing > > mindfulness meditation. Either way, we can change the end of our > > practise. Getting the best of both worlds, so to speak. > -------- > N:The lesson we also get from the sutta: know the citta that motivates > kusala and akusala. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to know > oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. Sounds mostly OK, but I would say to know one's intention before you act, you needn't know the whole citta or its cetasikes. > -------- > A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta > > to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > > painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, > > or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that > > will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of two > > disciplines, it could be. > ----- > N: you wrote:< one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as > painful>. > That is not enough. More important: to know feelings as non-self. Yes! Isn't this one of the main points of satipatthana and contemplation, to remove the idea of an enduring self? I know I have practised contemplation on the impermanence of feelings before and it certainly is a valid aspect of the practise. > They are > conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. > Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural > practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is taking > over. > Nina. Well this is kind of a grey area. I do not know exactly how to practise as I've not looked deeply into the Satipatthana sutta and its commentary, but behavioral exercises seem to be OK. I would still say we can start with idea of self to practise that which removes permanently the idea of self. I would give the simile of acting out of greed for that which helps one reduce greed, particlarly the meditation manual, "Mindfulness in Plain English." I think I would still practise willfully after reading about how it is to be practised in a book or two, and then doing it, probably with more idea of self that you would like, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It's the practise that leads to nibbana. 46466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to Arittha. I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes translations make a lot of difference. Nina. op 08-06-2005 16:31 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > .since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > Belongs to self...." > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > =========================== > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. 46467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, op 08-06-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: .....I don't think the Buddha taught the > distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." ... He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended > cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these > characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are > seen more > in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if > the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is > lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the > "real" > practice has begun. This is my perspective. --------- N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. Nina. 46468 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/8/05 12:43:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Howard, Google is a wonderful tool. I didn't have time to read through the page, but here's a link to ATIs version of the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html PTS lists it as MN.i.135. Dan ============================ Thanks for this suggestion, Dan. I tried a google search for the phrase on ATI, but to no avail. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46469 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 2:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to Arittha. I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes translations make a lot of difference. Nina. ======================= Thanks. Yes, I had the sutta, and I've seen it before. I just can't seem to find the phrase in it! Somehow I'm mising it. Could you please indicate where that denial of self is located, and perhaps also quote a bit of the larger text around it? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46470 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/8/05 2:50:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course. Understood. --------------------------------- Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: If you are speaking of an intellectual correct vision, I don't know that there should be. The Buddha didn't make much of the distinction. He certainly did talk a great deal about the khandhas and attending to them, but he also talked a lot about attending to merely conventional realities in many, many suttas. The distinction, one which I consider to be quite valid, BTW, seems only to have been made much of in the commentaries. I think the distinction is a valid one, but is not one that requires advance information about. --------------------------------------------- Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? ------------------------------------------- Howard: What is important is that we look and see. We needn't accept an untested theory. ------------------------------------------ One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Just contemplating conventional impermanence won't do it, nor will just contemplating claimed namic and rupic impermanence. But *directly seeing* that no sight, sound, taste, bodily sensation, feeling, etc, etc remains *will* do it. It is direct seeing that grows out of sustained practice as taught by the Buddha is what does it. ---------------------------------------- One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly agree with you here! ---------------------------------------- Insight is to be developed step by step. --------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly! --------------------------------------- If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. ----------------------------------------- Howard: The main intellectual understanding that is critical, as I see it, is understanding how the Buddha taught us to practice. I see the Eightfold Noble Path as a path of conventional practice. The Buddha taught us how to handle the Dhammic microscope: how to prepare the specimins, how to adjust the focus and the lighting, and how to then properly use our viewing equipment, and when the Buddha's specifications are carefully followed, the usually invisible realities, including the virulent microbes of defilement, will be clearly seen for exactly what they are. ----------------------------------------- Nina. ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46471 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Vism.XIV,165 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by the wind. Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped by the wind. It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should be regarded as distraction of consciousness. 46472 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK - Thank you for continuing the dhamma discussion that aims at getting your point across in a peaceful manner. RobK : Reflecting on the teaching can sound like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti. The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same -insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). Tep: The assumption you have made, "it has graduations that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the experience of nibbana, vimutti.", sounds like a wishful thinking. I wish you were right so that you could reach Nibbana in this life without letting go of all sensual pleasures, belongings and family. RobK : Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. Tep: This is clearly the view of a sukkha-vipassaka (vipassana yanika). I can see that what you are talking about may be called "comprehending of the five aggregates by direct knowledge". But how would you abandon ignorance and craving-for-becomeing by "rubbing away" and "learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept" ? Further, how would you develop tranquillity and insight (samatha and vipassana) by direct knowledge in the "present moment"? And, lastly, how would you realize clear knowing and release through direct knowledge? The clues are in MN 149. [MN 149: "He comprehends through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge, abandons through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge, develops through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge, and realizes through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge." ] Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Tep, > I agree that vimutti is beyond us right now, but I don't see > thinking about the teaching (or the other 4 ways) as being > recommended only for arahants here > Indeed I think the sutta is indicating the 5 ways by which beings > can gradually attain vimutti. Reflecting on the teaching can sound > like merely thinking in a conventional sense but it has graduations > that include actual moments of direct insight - and finally the > experience of nibbana, vimutti. > The theory and the practice are the same and the path is the same - > insight into the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (nama and > rupa, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus). > > Take the sutta I cited earlier: > Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha- Kotthita asked Sariputta what > the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a > sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the > conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as > pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... > Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering > with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of > stream-winning.' > > 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be > pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' > 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be > pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a > boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not > self.""endsutta. > > Thus we see the objects of insight are the same for one who is > beginning and one who is an arahant. The path is one of rubbing away ignorance and learning the difference between paramattha (the five khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) and concept. It cannot be hurried but if one has wrong understanding then they will go the wrong way, looking for something beyond this moment. > Robertk 46473 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,165 upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/8/05 7:12:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46474 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina ( Howard and other DSG members) - > N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold, feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However, we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. > Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between > concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; > what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? > One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. > Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised. Tep: I can't help thinking that you are making vipassana, especially contemplation on the five aggregates, too difficult because you are promoting the nitty-gritty details of paramattha dhamma. New Buddhists who want to contemplate the five aggregates might be scared away, if they have to become experts in the paramattha dhamma first ! The sutta approach to the panca khandha is straightforward. Rupa is the first aggregate, and nama means the remaining four aggragrates. There are countless number of suttas that never categorize rupa and nama into details as in a paramattha-dhamma book. For example, only the four basic elements (not the 18 elements - Vism. XIV, 32) and some of the 24 derived materialities are mentioned in the suttas; the 6 internal and 6 external bases(ayatanas) are referenced in the suttas; only a small number of sankhara (kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara) plus a subset of the 50 cetasikas are seen in the suttas; a small number of the 89 cittas were mentioned by the Buddha; concepts and ultimate realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. For example, DN 22 is one of the suttas that straightforwardly teach contemplation of the five aggreagtes, and it does not intimidate beginners. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > op 08-06-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > .....I don't think the Buddha taught the distinguishing between concept and reality as "something to do." ... He put far, far greater emphasis on the tilakkhana, so central to the Dhamma, the knowledge of which is obtained not as a specific "something to do," but, rather, emerging out of a sustained and extended cultivation of various sorts, a part of which is the contemplating of these characteristics at the conceptual level. At first these characteristics are seen more in their conventional sense, through the conceptual veil, but eventually, if the consistrent expenditure of time and effort is made, as that veil is lifted, the tilakkhana as they apply to actual phenomena are grasped, and the > > "real" practice has begun. This is my perspective. > --------- 46475 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - In an earlier message Howard wrote to Nina: >In a message dated 6/8/05 10:12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > you quote Ven. Dhammanando on the following: >"What the Commentaries call truth in the highest sense >(paramattha-sacca) >Is indicated in several ways in the Suttas, but most unambiguously > when the Buddha prefaces a statement with "In truth and reality..." >> (saccato thetato). E.g."....since in truth and reality there obtains > neither self nor what Belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) Tep: I have checked the translation of this "Parable of the Water Snake" which is MN 22 (translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu). I did not find the "truth in the highest sense" statement that puzzled Howard and me. There is no evidence of such "truth" in MN 22 that supports the paramattha dhamma as being claimed by Dhammanando. The only part of this sutta that is "close" to the puzzling statement is the following. "Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?" MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > Middle Length Sayings I, no 133, Parable of the Watersnake. Preached to > Arittha. > I think you know it, it also contains the parable of the raft. > I did not check different translations, I also have B.B. Sometimes > translations make a lot of difference. > Nina. > > op 08-06-2005 16:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > .since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what > > Belongs to self...." > > (Alagadduupama Sutta ) > > =========================== > > This is about the most explicit denial of existence self that I have > > read! (Not just a "Not-self strategy" ;-) So I went to the sutta to find the > > context of the statement, but I have been unable to locate it. 46476 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 6:08pm Subject: Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Dear Nina and Sarah, There were some other questions raised at Cooran that I might trouble you with - since you asked. Firstly there was the question; "Does a cetasika experience its object?" I would have thought the answer was clearly, yes. If I remember correctly, the introductory pages of ADL tell us, "Nama experiences an object; rupa doesn't experience anything." However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? Nina recently gave a quote in which Robert Eddison (as he then was) listed a number of such ways, but there was no mention of, "in detail." However, Robert Kirkpatrick has quoted a sutta (SN XXI.10), which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking about absolute (momentary) reality: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." That might be enough questions for this post, thank you. By the way, Sarah, you were asking about other people's test results: I can proudly identify myself as a fellow robot. I scored 0% extravert. How dull is that? :-) Ken H 46477 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/8/05 9:07:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I have checked the translation of this "Parable of the Water Snake" which is MN 22 (translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu). I did not find the "truth in the highest sense" statement that puzzled Howard and me. There is no evidence of such "truth" in MN 22 that supports the paramattha dhamma as being claimed by Dhammanando. The only part of this sutta that is "close" to the puzzling statement is the following. "Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?" ====================== Hmm, I missed that. What you found is certainly it, Tep! Perhaps what we have here is just a variation in translation. The two versions, while different, are also quite close. Both are strong "anti-self" statements, though Ven. Dhammanando's version is far, far more straightforward and definite of a statement. I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a fact. It would be important to know it. I would not be surprised if Ven D's translation is a very good one. However, inasmuch as Ven. T considers "not-self" to be just a strategy, and Ven. D is a very conservative, very "orthodox" Theravadin, each might have a subtle inclination to innocently bend the translation in a particular direction. It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a clarification for us. Sarah, is Jim Anderson on the list? Might he be of help? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46478 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah and Nina) - In a message dated 6/8/05 9:10:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? Nina recently gave a quote in which Robert Eddison (as he then was) listed a number of such ways, but there was no mention of, "in detail." However, Robert Kirkpatrick has quoted a sutta (SN XXI.10), which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking about absolute (momentary) reality: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." ========================== Ken this is a *very* interesting insight (in the conventional sense ;-) and a *very* interesting conjecture!! It would be fascinating to examine other usages of "in detail" or "in its details"!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46479 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {Attn. Howard and other members} - Thank you very much for reading my posts with exceptional attention to details. S: If there is awareness of `the seen' or the other dhammas mentioned, no names are necessary at all. We just use them for communication purposes only, wouldn't you agree? Tep: I agree with you that the most important thing is to get to the real dhamma regardless of what "language" (paramattha- or vohara- sacca) we are using -- it doesn't matter whether we use a raft or a boat to go to the the other shore. ------------------------- S: My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? Tep: You quoted the Pali: 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyanti'. I then used the Pali-text Society to get the following meanings. Ekodi = eka + odi : of one attention, limited to one point Eka = one alone Vupakattha = withdrawn, drawn away (from), secluded Appamatta = diligent, careful, heedful, vigilant, alert, zealous Pahinati [pa+hi, Sk. hinoti] to send Pahita2 [pp. of pahinati] sent pahit-atta "puts forth all his strength" Viharati (p. 642) [vi+harati] to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn (in a certain place) Viveka = detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" (of heart), discrimination (of thought) So the Pali phrase should mean: being alone and dwelling diligently, one puts forth strong effort to be alert (mindful). Therefore, I believe both bodily and mental seclusion are required. ------------------------------- S: I'm greatly appreciating your discussions with Rob, Nina and others on this topic. It's often not easy at all, I find, to know exactly what's being referred to. Tep: Thank you for your kind thought. But quite often I do not know what I do not know exactly, and so I do appreciate patience of Rob, Nina and others to bear with me. --------------------------------- S: Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 worlds, `atapi sampajanno satima' can arise and develop instantly, being aware of one such dhamma at a time. Tep: I believe it is the reverse of what you said is what I understand : i.e. with constant practicing or development of sati-sampajanna and right exertion, the monk becomes `atapi sampajanno satima', and the consequence is what you said :"understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment". That is the main difference or "disagreed point" between us. I believe that understanding (samma-nana) follows samma-samadhi, and samma-samadhi is supported by samma-sati and samma-vayama (including the other path factors). Yours is the opposite. Right? S: Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, 73,'Dhamma-viharin Sutta'– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu who `neglects seclusion...'. The Pali here for seclusion is `ekii bhaava"n vissajjeti',`lit: being alone, setting free', I think. Perhaps this also refers to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of `the seen' and so on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of freedom. Tep: Yes, you're right. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not "one who dwells in the Dhamma". Thus, he does not develop direct knowledge of the realities. S: B.Bodhi's note on this part of the sutta: "It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, `Five Bases of Liberation'] the first four items are designated `bases of liberation' and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation." S: In other words, we're back to the important reminders about right handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that one should be in physical seclusion and far away from one's books, teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? Tep: I am lost here, Sarah. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation so I don't understand the two cases. S: Just as you say, as we learn to live alone or in `seclusion', `lobha and the self view will become less and less as the problem'. In other words, by living alone as islands with the `seen', `heard' and other dhammas, we can see that everything we find so important and precious comes down to these transitory, unsatisfactory dhammas or elements.....no self, no person at all. Tep: I think we agree here in principle, but the detail of how we do it may be different. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.95 > > Malunkyaputta Sutta > .... > S: I consider this to be a very valuable sutta as well and appreciated all > your comments on it, Howard and also Tep's summaries. As you said, it's > very similar to the lines in the Bahiya sutta- > "...in the seen there will be merely the seen....etc". > 46480 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165 nilovg Hi Howard, op 09-06-2005 01:48 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: Wait and see what else is coming. There is much more to it. The Tiika explains that also the accompanying dhammas are restless. We can see how far going its influence is! Is there agitation at this moment? It arises with each akusala citta. Nina. 46481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Howard, Do not fear, Ven. Dhammanando is great in Pali, a real adept. I have the Pali text and, though only a beginner, will look at it again. But first I have to go along with 'agitation'. I have to finish it before our trip on Sunday until Thursday. Nina. op 09-06-2005 03:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really > adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a > clarification for us. 46482 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 11:23pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 216 - Akusala Cetasikas Intro(a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction] Akusala citta and akusala cetasika are akusala dhammas, dhammas which are unskilful, unprofitable, unclean, impure. Do we realize when there is akusala citta? Whenever the citta is not intent on wholesomeness, we act, speak or think with akusala citta. We may not have unkind thoughts or thoughts of coarse desire, but the cittas which think can still be akusala cittas; they are akusala cittas whenever we do not think wholesome thoughts. We think time and again of people, of things which have happened or will happen, and we should find out for ourselves when thinking is kusala and when akusala. When we are “daydreaming”, do we think wholesome thoughts? If that is not so, then the cittas are akusala cittas. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas Intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46483 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Dan (& **for Howard, *for Sukin & all) --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In a longer thread, I like your phrasing: "Without 'hearing' or coming > across the teachings in some way -- whether by book or email or a > teacher-- and understanding what one hears to be the truth, there won't > be the conditions for deeper reflections, understandings and > development (bhaavanaa)." > > Just two quick questions: > 1. Is what one hear "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? ... S: I’d say one hears a description of the truth, but the understanding sees the value, comprehends to some degree theoretically in the first place and begins to know the truth directly*. ..... > 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's > teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, > say, what they had when they were six years old? ... S: They can develop a deeper understanding at some level – for example, they can know a lot about good and bad, about the danger of clinging to sense objects and so on. Jhanas were obtained without any assistance from the Buddha’s teachings as we read about. But, no understanding of namas and rupas as elements, no understanding of anatta. I’m sure you’ve seen the quote from Dispeller about how there can be an understanding of impermanence and suffering without a Buddha, but not an understanding of anatta. Also, this understanding of impermanence and suffering is not of the deepest meaning of the impermanence and suffering of dhammas, but it is the understanding we have conventionally of change and of dukkha dukkha, the unpleasant bobily and mental feelings. Someone who hasn’t come across the Buddha’s teachings might be able to tell you that clearly seeing sees visible object, but still there’s an idea of ‘my’ seeing of visible objects or ‘my body’ or ‘my elements’ which are seen. As it said in the sutta in SN 3:11, ‘Seven Jatilas’,: “It is by discussion with someone...that his wisdom is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” [I can give a lot more detail on this from another sutta if anyone is interested which I hope they are - I'd like to expand on what I wrote in Musings1!] If it wasn’t necessary to hear the teachings first, why would the Buddha have taught for so long and in such detail? Please help me to understand your ideas better in more detail. As Nina just wrote too: **** >N: Let us first take one of these three lakkhana, the impermanence. Cold,feeling cold, for example, arise and fall away, they do not last. However,we take them as a whole: I am feeling cold. It is very difficult to have precise understanding of: this is the rupa that is cold, this is the nama that experiences cold. I am feeling cold: this is a concept, an idea of me feeling cold, a person feeling cold. Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be discerned? The question is; what arises and falls away now? Is it nama or rupa? One may just contemplate: everything in this world is subject to change, but I do not think this is beneficial for insight. One is only in the world of thinking, in the ocean of concepts. Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised.< ***** Disagreements so far?? Metta, Sarah * From Nyanaponika’s commentary notes to the Alagadduupama Sutta From the commentary, 3 kinds of pariyatti: “....There are, to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer’s (or store-keeper’s) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti)” It then goes on to describe how the first kind of study or pariyatti is for fame and gain and is ‘the wrong grasp’. I like this: “but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all”. The second way is by fulfilling morality when it’s the subject, letting concentration take root when it’s the subject and establishing himself in insight when it’s the subject. This is “studying for the sake of crossing over” as expressed in the simile of the Raft. The third way of study is the arahant’s, who like the treasurer, he studies the teachings “as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity”. ========== ** Nyanaponika’s translation: “Since in truth and, in fact, self and self’s property do not obtain.....” ======== 46484 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:54am Subject: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the Dhamma sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I’d like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in mind**. ..... ‘Heard with the Ear’ (AN, 4s, 191, PTS) “ ‘Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana”m), from considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view. What are the four? Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and the rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*. Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.’” ..... [S: digression from 4s, 186 ‘Approach’ (Ummagga) On the meaning of ‘mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by heart: “...’Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called ‘one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.’” Also on the meaning of ‘penetrative wisdom’: “....a monk hears it said: ‘This is Ill.’ By wisdom he penetrates the meaning of that saying and sees that it is so. He hears it said: “This is the arising of Ill...This is the ending of Ill... This is the practice going to the ending of Ill.’ By wisdom he penetrates the meaning of that saying and sees that it is so. Thus, monks, he is learned, of penetrative wisdom.’” ..... S: So I think so far we have some clear descriptions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha (or of suta-mayaa-pa~n~naa, cintaa-mayaa pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa) in these sutta extracts.] ..... Back to ‘Heard with the Ear’ “He making an end with memory confused is reborn in a certain company of devas. There the happy ones recite to him Dhamma-verses. Slow to arise in him, monks, is memory, but that being very quickly reaches excellence. “ A second similar example is given whereby he hears a monk teaching to a company of devas. Again he is reminded of the Dhamma-Vinaya. “It is just as if a man skilled in the sound of drums, while going along the highroad, should hear the sound of a drum. He would have no doubt or uncertainty as to whether it was the sound of a drum or not, but would just conclude that it was so. In the same way, monks, a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya and the rest. Those teachings heard with the ear.....are thoroughly penetrated by view....Slow to arise in him, monks, is memory, but that being very quickly reaches excellence.” Two more similar examples or advantages are given. After the last one, the following favourite analogy is given: “It is just as if two playmates who used to play at mud-pies together were to meet some time or other. Then one of them says to the other: “Say, old man, do you remember this? Do you remember that?’ And the other replies: ‘I do indeed remember, old man! I do indeed remember!’ Just in the same way, monks, a monk masters Dhamma....those teachings are thoroughly penetrated by view...that being very quickly reaches excellence.” Metta, Sarah *The ninefold division or classification of the teachings (Angas). According to the commentaries, the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka is included in the Veyyaakara.na (Expositions)]. ..... ** From Nyanaponika’s commentary notes to the Alagadduupama Sutta From the commentary: “....There are, to wit, three manners of studying the Teaching: studying it in the manner of the Snake-simile (alagadda-pariyatti); studying it for the sake of crossing over (ni.t.tharana-pariyatti); and studying in a treasurer’s (or store-keeper’s) position (bhandaa-gaarika-pariyatti)” It then goes on to describe how the first kind of study or pariyatti is for fame and gain and is ‘the wrong grasp’. I like this: “but better than such a study would be for him to sleep and not to study at all”. The second way is by fulfilling morality when it’s the subject, letting concentration take root when it’s the subject and establishing himself in insight when it’s the subject. This is “studying for the sake of crossing over” as expressed in the simile of the Raft. The third way of study is the arahant’s,who like the treasurer, he studies the teachings “as a keeper of the scriptures, as a guardian of the tradition, as a preserver of the continuity”. =================================================== 46485 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, again, to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I want to give more thought to your remark. op 09-06-2005 01:48 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: When a Pali term is explained and then literally translated into English, it comes out strange sometimes. No wonder people fall over it. Here agitation, uddhacca.m, is explained as uddhatabhaavo, the nature of having been lifted up too high, being out of balance (in PED). Uddhata is p.p. of uddharati, to lift up. It is said in PED that uddhacca is a gerund made into a substantivum. Uddha means high. Thus uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. Then the Tiika adds: because of this dhamma the citta or the accompanying dhammas are agitated. We often see: by this dhamma it itself is of this quality, and it also makes the accompanying dhammas in that way. Many words are used but the main thing is understanding its characteristic. Please jump at it any time when a translation looks strange. It is a good opportunity to go deeper into the meaning of dhammas. I shall use it for my study. Nina. 46486 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: 'Metta' - Metta as a de-clinger philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for following up on "Metta", and thanks to Alan W for sending it along. I dipped in and pulled the following passge out. I will do so now and then: "This is daily life which should really be investigated. When mett?Edoes not arise citta is infatuated by objects, it delights in objects all the time. If there is no awareness we do not know when there is lobha. The clinging to the different objects which are experienced will condition our behaviour, our actions through body and speech, and then we can find out that there is no mett?E When we have learnt through our own experience the characteristic of lobha and of mett?Ewhen they arise, we can compare them and clearly know their difference." This is interesting. We tend to think of metta as something sweet that is all about being kind to other people, but there is also this aspect of metta as adosa that accompanies alobha with all kusala cittas...so metta helps us to become detached, which is the whole point of studying Dhamma. But I think metta practice without right understanding can condition lots and lots of lobha. Metta, Phil > Prompted by your enquiries, Alan W (of Zolag) sent us a text copy of > A.Sujin's book 'Metta' which we've put in the 'files' section for the time > being until he reloads a copy onto Zolag. > > Look forward to any parts anyone finds helpful or wishes to discuss. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 46487 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) philofillet Hello Nina and all > i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? Lobha is akusala and chanda can be either akusala or kusala. Since there is akusala far more often than kusala, safe to say that chanda is akusala more often than not. > ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda > and lobha? Today I was listening to a talk in which Azita asked about this. Kh Sujin answered as above. One is kusala and the other is akusala. Sarah added that the lobha follows on after the kusala chanda very quickly. We do something with chanda than feel pleased about it and that is lobha. But I would say we shouldn't think too much about that. I've learned that akusala can condition kusala and I would say that feeling good about a good deed could be one such case. But it could get out of hand. If chanda is used as a cover-all to escape from questions about wrong view/practice it is dangerous. We had a visitor last year here who finally became a bit cross when people questioned his way of meditating (and teaching meditation) and said that DSG was pessimistic, hopeless etc. He used the word chanda a lot to defend his practices instead of looking at them objectively. On the other hand, Nina does point out in her book that chanda *is* necessary in the beginning when starting to meditate, develop jhanas. It seeks the meditation object. Back to the question. How does one know the difference? Maybe we can use the chocolate cake test. If we enjoy chocolate cake but don't get irritated when we can't have it, there isn't too much lobha. (I learned this from a humorous Tibetan nun, Phema Chodron - something like that.) Can we lay down our dhamma books or not meditate for a few days and not get irritated by the absence? In my case, I would get irritated if I couldn't read my Samyutta NIkaya anthology in the morning so that is a sign that there is a lot of lobha in my Dhamma study. The chanda then would be unwholesome. > iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform > wholesome deeds? If they are wholesome, there is kusala chanda, but lobha can quickly follow. I need to re-read Deeds of Merit. If, for example, a parent donates to a temple in the hope of his or her child getting into a good university, which often happens in Japan, would that be considered a wholesome deed by virtue of the recipient of the donation, even though self-interest was involved on the part of the donor? > > iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana > cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamån?E> cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say > that the latter types are neither wholesome nor > unwholesome? Not correct. They are either wholesome or unwholesome, not neither nor. > > v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or pú`i > can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards > akusala and thus entirely different? Because we don't want to waste this precious opportunity to benefit from the Buddha's teaching by getting caught up in practices based in wrong view. It is so easy for people to forget that energy (virya) and enthusiasm (piti) are not always wholesome and are in fact usually unwholesome - they have such wholesome connotations in our culture. > > vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the > development of the Path? In what way? Well, understanding virya better will help to condition wholesome virya, and since wholesome virya is right effort, a path factor will begin to be developed. That applies to other path factors as well though. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina or anyone else. Metta, Phil 46488 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Howard, and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I'd like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > mind**. > ..... Uh-Oh, Howard, I think it might be time again for the 'Jhana Post' you sent to Sarah before. Remember, the one that goes on for pages and pages with quotes about the Buddha speaking the benefits of jhana? ;-)) I think Sarah called it a 'Jhana attack'. :-)). But...on second though...Sarah will just respond with "Oh yes, but remember that there are two definitions of jhana...blah, blah, blah." Like the Buddha ever really mean that second definition! On second thought, might as well not bother. Metta, James 46489 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 216 - Akusala Cetasikas Intro(a) philofillet Hello all > Akusala citta and akusala cetasika are akusala dhammas, dhammas > which are unskilful, unprofitable, unclean, impure. Do we realize > when there is akusala citta? I liked it when Kh Sujin (or someone) said that dosa (aversion) is easier to know than lobha (greed, attachment) because it appears as the enemy. Always easier to recognize an outright enemy than an enemy who appears in a pleasant light. >. When we are "daydreaming?E do we > think wholesome thoughts? If that is not so, then the cittas are > akusala cittas. I appreciated reading a sutta in Samyutta Nikaya the other day that teaches us that thoughts of harming others, thoughts of sensual desire should be replaced by thoughts of the four noble truths. I don't care whatsover about the "should" not being kosher. If this sutta conditions a movement away from thoughts of lust to thoughts of the four noble truths, this should is good. It is the Buddha's teaching that has planted the "should" in our mind - it is not-self and will arise to help us or fail to arise to help us in a conditioned, unpredictable way. I will be posting more thoughts on this when I get back to Howard's Yentl (?) quotation post - Saturday, I guess. Metta, Phil 46490 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/9/05 12:04:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: 165. (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. ======================== That's what I like so much about the great Buddhaghosa:Such a great clarifier! ;-)) N: Wait and see what else is coming. There is much more to it. The Tiika explains that also the accompanying dhammas are restless. We can see how far going its influence is! Is there agitation at this moment? It arises with each akusala citta. Nina ==================== I know there is more, Nina. I'm just kidding around! I simply find the sort of language use that adds nothing to one's understanding a bit amusing. It occurs noticeably, it seems, in the Abhidhamma and in the commentaries in particular. (But the Buddha himself on occasion in the suttas said such things as, to paraphrase, "knowing knows, and that is why it is called knowing" (with regard to vi~n~nana). With metta, Howard P.S. I'll be leaving in a couple hours for an extended-weekend trip. Probaby I'll be incommunicado until Sunday night or Monday. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46491 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/9/05 12:17:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Do not fear, Ven. Dhammanando is great in Pali, a real adept. I have the Pali text and, though only a beginner, will look at it again. But first I have to go along with 'agitation'. I have to finish it before our trip on Sunday until Thursday. Nina. ==================== Thank you very much, Nina. I would very much appreciate a careful analysis and comparison of the 2 translations being done. I would find it edifying if Ven. dhammanando's translation were right on target. To me it is crystal clear that the Buddha saw "no self" as a fact and not only strategy, though he was very careful about how he broached the matter to people. (Folks need to discover truth directly and not as a mere matter of assenting to theory. Also, belief in self, in the person and in the world, is so deep seated that a teaching of no self is easily misunderstood as nihilist and can be terrifying.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46492 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner ... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/9/05 4:43:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: ** Nyanaponika’s translation: “Since in truth and, in fact, self and self’s property do not obtain.....â€? ==================== Ahh, excellent!! Thank you, Sarah! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46493 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Sarah - I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? Kind regards, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, and Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > I'd like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > > mind**. > > ..... > > Uh-Oh, Howard, I think it might be time again for the 'Jhana Post' you > sent to Sarah before. Remember, the one that goes on for pages and > pages with quotes about the Buddha speaking the benefits of jhana? > ;-)) I think Sarah called it a 'Jhana attack'. :-)). But...on second > though...Sarah will just respond with "Oh yes, but remember that there > are two definitions of jhana...blah, blah, blah." Like the Buddha > ever really mean that second definition! On second thought, might as > well not bother. > > Metta, > James 46494 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 5:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for shining your spotlight on the no-self issue and for pointing out that translators may distort the original meanings because of innocence (and possibly, intention). Thanks to Nina for promising to investigate the original text. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Sarah) - > (snipped) > Perhaps what we have here is just a variation in translation. The two > versions, while different, are also quite close. Both are strong "anti- self" statements, though Ven. Dhammanando's version is far, far more straightforward and definite of a statement. I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a fact. It would be important to know it. I would not be surprised if Ven D's translation is a very good one. However, inasmuch as Ven. T considers "not-self" to be just a strategy, and Ven. D is a very conservative, very "orthodox" Theravadin, > each might have a subtle inclination to innocently bend the translation in a particular direction. It would be great, I think, if someone here who is really adept in Pali also had a copy of the sutta in Pali and could provide a clarification for us. > Sarah, is Jim Anderson on the list? Might he be of help? 46495 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Dear Howard, Tep, Nina & all, Whilst waiting for Nina's further analysis, you may like to read the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of the following (MN22 #25) Pali ==== 37. Attani và bhikkhave sati' attaniya"n me'ti assàti? 'Eva"n bhante.' Attaniye và bhikkhave sati 'attà me'ti assàti? Evaü bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamàne2 yampida"n3 diññhiññhàna"n 'so loko so attà, so pecca bhavissàmi nicco dhuvo sassato avipariõàmadhammo, sassatisamaü tatheva ñhassàmã'ti, nanàya bhikkhave kevalo paripåro bàladhammoti? 'Ki"n hi no siyà bhante, kevalo paripåro4 bàladhammo'ti. ..... Translation ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self, would there be what belongs to my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views, namely, 'The self and the world are the same; after death I shall be permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change; I shall endure as long as eternity' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching?" ...... Metta, Sarah ========= 46496 From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard & Tep, Howard: > I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually > there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a > fact. It would be important to know it. Here is the Pali: attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) And seven translations: ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." Robert Eddison: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." Mahamakut Tipi.taka: "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a reality] Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law seem to me to be completely off the map, while the remaining five seem more or less defensible as far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamaane"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined -- or at least influenced -- by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamaane. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. Phew! Just to make things a little more complicated, it also has the negative particle na ('not') placed at the front, which then changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word anupalabbhamaane. The difference between my old rendering and the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if he is reading this. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? concepts and realities. nilovg Hi Howard, I just take out a few points of your mail. op 08-06-2005 23:53 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between > concept and paramattha dhamma? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If you are speaking of an intellectual correct vision, I don't know that > there should be. The Buddha didn't make much of the distinction. He certainly > did talk a great deal about the khandhas and attending to them, but he also > talked a lot about attending to merely conventional realities in many, many > suttas. The distinction, one which I consider to be quite valid, BTW, seems > only > to have been made much of in the commentaries. I think the distinction is a > valid one, but is not one that requires advance information about. > --------------------------------------------- N: This is an important point that should be discussed more. Preferably from different angles. Especially when reading Kindred Sayings IV, Salaayatanavagga, I think that the Buddha emphasized knowing one dhamma at a time through one of the six doors. He also spoke about ayatanas: sensefields. Ayatana: meeting or association of sense object and doorway at one point so that the appropriate sense-cognition arises. When we really understand this, I believe that the difference between ultimate reality and concept becomes clearer. We also understand better that only one dhamma can be experienced at a time. When we understand and can begin to be aware of what appears through eyes, visible object, it will be clearer that visible object is not a concept. When I use the word concept, I mean not merely a word or name to denote something but also the idea behind it that is denoted. The three characteristics are characteristics of ultimate realities, not of concepts. Let us now take anatta. We gradually learn that visible object is only a dhamma, that seeing is only a dhamma. Only an element that arises already because of conditions, before we can do anything about it. Only a nama, only a rupa. This is the beginning of correct understanding of anatta. We are still holding on, and more detachment is needed to experience the falling away of dhammas. When we hold on we cannot see their falling away, their impermanence. ------- > Howard: But *directly > seeing* that no sight, sound, taste, bodily sensation, feeling, etc, etc > remains *will* do it. It is direct seeing that grows out of sustained practice as > taught by the Buddha is what does it. > ---------------------------------------- N: But first we have to really understand what sight, sound, etc. really are. Otherwise we cannot see that they do not last. We think we know, but we mix them with shape and form, ideas about persons and things; ideas we have since our birth and before that, since many, many lives. We should not underestimate the wrong view we have accumulated. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > The main intellectual understanding that is critical, as I see it, is > understanding how the Buddha taught us to practice. I see the Eightfold Noble > Path as a path of conventional practice. -------- N: Hard to swallow that it is conventional practice. Perhaps you mean something different from what I think of conventional. ------- H: ... when the Buddha's specifications are > carefully followed, the usually invisible realities, including the virulent > microbes of defilement, will be clearly seen for exactly what they are. > ----------------------------------------- N: Defilements are conditioned namas, elements, mere dhammas and they should be seen as such, they should be objects of insight. There are there before we can blink our eyes. There are so fast, no time to do anything. But I agree with you that kusala can be cultivated, thus, that something *can* be done. No hopelessness or helplessness. Only developed paññaa can eradicate defilements. Seeing them as they are is accomplished with detachment. Paññaa and detachment go together, always. Nina. 46498 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? onco111 Dear Dhammanando Bhikkhu, So, like the son of a barren woman, a true, firm "self" is not to be found. Thanks for the splendid exegesis. Dan > Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive > voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With > the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would > be "not to be found." > > Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be > familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: > > va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. > "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." > > (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a > barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be > predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. > > And here arises the first point of controversy among > translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase > "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? > ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A > mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. > Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not > pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and > would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that > is too inscrutable to say anything about. > > To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a > present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or > more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this > present participle is inflected in the locative case, then > various meanings are possible, and here arises the second > point of controversy. What function does the locative have > in this context? There are three possibilities: > > Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a > non-obtaining of self..." > > Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of > self...." > > Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." > > ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for > the other two would leave a loophole that there might be > some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of > course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism > intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions > determining how we translate. > > Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; > theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has > these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into > adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits > of the above translations, or even if there is a difference > between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in > truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in > your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word > anupalabbhamaane. > > The difference between my old rendering and the > ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to > be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N > & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self > and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering > is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord > better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be > interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if > he is reading this. > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando 46499 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Venerable Dhammanando - I really appreciate the informative explanation that completely clears away my confusion. Thank you for this special message. I have to admit that I am not a language expert either in English or Thai, and my Pali knowledge is at elementary level. Having said that, I would like to offer a humble opinion as follows. I think an English translation for 'doey khwaam pen khong jing' may be "as a real thing", and an English version for 'doey khwaam pen khong thae' should be "as a genuine thing". "As a truth" is also a fine translation for 'doey khwaam pen khong jing' . My humble opinion is that 'saccato thetato' should be translated as "really truthful". [sacca = real, true; saccato = truly, and thetato = in truth.] I can see that it has nothing to do with "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In ammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu" wrote: > Dear Howard & Tep, > (snipped) > > Mahamakut Tipi.taka: > "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu > ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen > khong thae..." > [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the > appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a > reality] > > Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: > "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen > mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong > thae..." > [When both self and things connected with self cannot be > apprehended as a truth and as a reality] > > (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with > how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, > do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen > khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). > 46500 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your prompt, clear, and cheerful reply. > > 1. Is what one hears "the truth" or a "description of the truth"? > ... > S: I'd say one hears a description of the truth... I'd say so too. > ...but the understanding sees the value, comprehends to some degree theoretically in the first place and begins to know the truth directly*. Huh? You lost me here. You seem to be merrily but guardedly gliding off on a tangent after answering the question so neatly in the first half of your sentence. Never mind, let's continue below. > ..... > > 2. Are you sure that someone who hasn't access to the Buddha's > > teachings simply cannot develop a deeper understanding of reality than, > > say, what they had when they were six years old? > ... > S: They can develop a deeper understanding at some level I would certainly agree with this. > – for example, they can know a lot about good and bad Certainly. It is not so easy or common, but a lot of non-Buddhists understand that "kamma" refers to the viññana rather than the actual physical manifestation or act itself and that the distinction between kusala and akusala is found in cetasikas rather than any external upholding (or breaking) of precepts, "commandments", rituals, or spiritual exercises. The language is of less importance than the underlying realities that are being described. It makes no difference at this stage whether or not the underlying reality is described as "kamma" or "karma" or "works"; "viññana", "motivation", or "heart"; "akusala" or "sinful"; "kusala" or "pure"; "silabbataparamasa" or "works righteousness"; "sila" or "law". It is quite possible for someone who has never heard any Buddhist terms or conceptualizations to have deeper insight into silabbataparamasa and be able to explain it more clearly than a devout Buddhist who can discuss in great detail and intricacy the conceptual framework of long racks of Pali terms. > about the danger of clinging to sense objects and so on. Yup. > Jhanas were obtained without any assistance from the Buddha's > teachings as we read about. Yup. > But, no understanding of namas and rupas as elements, no understanding of anatta. Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic of reality. I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what 99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. At the deepest levels, though, the Buddhist conceptual framework is required if enlightenment is to be attained. This is just an introduction. I'm running out of time to do any sort of justice to these issues today, but they are important and I intend to post more about them soon. I need to rush through the rest of your great post now but will revisit later. > Someone who hasn't come across the Buddha's teachings might be able to > tell you that clearly seeing sees visible object, but still there's an > idea of `my' seeing of visible objects or `my body' or `my elements' which > are seen. Usually, but not always. > If it wasn't necessary to hear the teachings first, why would the Buddha > have taught for so long and in such detail? Please help me to understand > your ideas better in more detail. Good descriptions are necessary to consolidate shallower insights and provide a firmer foundation for deeper insight. No doubt about it. Even further, Buddha found a path all the way to enlightenment. How could he do anything other than describe it? It is OF COURSE helpful to hear: "Reality is not what a deluded mind makes it out to be; here's a description..." "Oooo... I catch glimpses of that every once in while, but most of the time I'm in a deluded state." Nina's take: "Insight is to be developed step by step. If the intellectual understanding is not right, the Path cannot be practised." Yes, if you refer to the "supramundane path"; no, if you refer to everything else in Buddhism. Perhaps more on this later. > Disagreements so far?? Yes, touched on later. Metta, Dan 46501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Venerable Bhante Dhammanando, Thank you very much for your translations. I admire the thorough and objective manner of your way of comparing these seven translations. We can learn from such an approach. I frwd your post to Suan. With appreciation and respect, Nina. op 09-06-2005 17:24 schreef dhammanando_bhikkhu op dhammanando@...: > Here is the Pali: > > attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane > (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the > puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) > > And seven translations: 46502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the Dhamma nilovg Dear Sarah, very good quotes, thank you. Appreciating, Nina. op 09-06-2005 11:54 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I’d like to add some quotes to various comments about the benefits of > listening to and studying the teachings. Of course, again the right and > wrong kinds of study from the commentary just quoted should be kept in > mind**. > ..... > ‘Heard with the Ear’ (AN, 4s, 191, PTS) > 46503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Metta' - Metta as a de-clinger nilovg Hi Phil, very good idea to quote from Metta now and then. We can't have enough reminders, ever. I like this one and your remarks. Nina. op 09-06-2005 12:18 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > "This is daily life which should really be investigated. When > mett?Edoes not arise citta is infatuated by objects, it delights in > objects all the time.... > >... But I think metta practice without > right understanding can condition lots and lots of lobha. 46504 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 0:55pm Subject: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran Dear Dhamma friends, Please help me. :) Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first meeting: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. With much appreciation. 46505 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "axtran" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > Please help me. :) > > Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first > meeting: > > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > their cause > and their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html > > Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to > imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . > > Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why > the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. > > With much appreciation. ============ Hello axtran, Something to consider ..... "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya Mahávagga: Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá Tesam hetum Tathágato áha Tesañ ca yo nirodho Evamvádí mahásamano. Of things originating with conditions, The Tathágata has told the condition, And what their cessation is. The Great Recluse speaks thus. Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its hetu -- it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their individual hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda'. Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of avijjá." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm metta, Christine ----The trouble is that you think you have time--- 46506 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello axtran, > > Something to consider ..... > > "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya > Mahávagga: > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > Tesam hetum Tathágato áha > Tesañ ca yo nirodho > Evamvádí mahásamano. > Of things originating with conditions, > The Tathágata has told the condition, > And what their cessation is. > The Great Recluse speaks thus. > > Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend > upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of > these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any > paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its hetu -- > it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu > is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that > are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their individual > hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are > hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no > hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, > have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), > therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda > (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus > mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of paticcasamuppáda'. > Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and > when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all > hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of avijjá." > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm > > metta, > Christine Dear Christine, The point that those people made was that in the first line: Whatever phenomena arise from cause phenomena is plural, but cause is singular. Please explain more . Is "dhammá" plural, and "hetuppabhavá" is singular in this case ? With metta, Alex Tran 46507 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "axtran" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello > axtran, > > > > Something to consider ..... > > > > "This is perhaps most simply stated in the lines from the Vinaya > > Mahávagga: > > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > > Tesam hetum Tathágato áha > > Tesañ ca yo nirodho > > Evamvádí mahásamano. > > Of things originating with conditions, > > The Tathágata has told the condition, > > And what their cessation is. > > The Great Recluse speaks thus. > > > > Here, Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá are all things whatsoever that depend > > upon hetú ('conditions' -- synonymous with paccayá). Since each of > > these things depends upon its respective hetu (as in any > > paticcasamuppáda formulation), it shares the same fate as its > hetu -- > > it is present when the hetu< is present, and absent when the hetu > > is absent. Thus the hetu of them taken as a whole (all things that > > are hetuppabhavá) is no different from the hetu of their > individual > > hetú taken as a whole. When there are hetú at all there are > > hetuppabhavá dhammá, when there are no hetú there are no > > hetuppabhavá dhammá; and hetú, being nothing else than sankhárá, > > have avijjá as condition. Tesam hetum ('their condition'), > > therefore, is avijjá. To see the Dhamma is to see paticcasamuppáda > > (as noted in §7), and avijjá is therefore non-seeing of > > paticcasamuppáda. Avijjápaccayá sankhárá will thus > > mean 'paticcasamuppáda depends upon non-seeing of > paticcasamuppáda'. > > Conversely, seeing of paticcasamuppáda is cessation of avijjá, and > > when paticcasamuppáda is seen it loses its condition ('non- seeing > of > > paticcasamuppáda') and ceases. And this is cessation of all > > hetuppabhavá dhammá. Thus tesam yo nirodho is cessation of > avijjá." > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/noteps3.htm > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Dear Christine, > > The point that those people made was that in the first line: > Whatever phenomena arise from cause > > phenomena is plural, but cause is singular. > > Please explain more . Is "dhammá" plural, and "hetuppabhavá" is > singular in this case ? > > With metta, > Alex Tran =========== Hello Alex, The Pali (the original) is clear. Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá Of things originating with conditions Both are plural. metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 46508 From: "axtran" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta axtran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > Hello Alex, > > The Pali (the original) is clear. > > Ye dhammá hetuppabhavá > Of things originating with conditions > > Both are plural. > > metta > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Dear Christine, Thank you. I need to study Pali. :) With Metta, Alex 46509 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James and Sarah - > > I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking > about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? > > Kind regards, > > Tep You can find information about them in the Useful Posts in the Files section under the category heading of "Jhana- Two Meanings". Metta, James ps. I don't argue it because I don't know a single Pali word which has only one meaning (and most of them have several)! ;-)) 46510 From: "lone_renunciant" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, (Nina, Howard, Dan & Jon at the end, oh and everyone else > p.s Howard & Nina, > > Long Island - yes, Gatsby-land! Rob Ep always said he'd come to NY if we > made it too....Who else? One of the Chucks? Maybe Larry, Lisa, James, even > Tep?? > > It's sounding v.tempting. August, we've been planning on Australia, but > it's winter Down Under and it could be NY instead...what d'ya reck'n Jon & > all?:-)) > Dan, Oregon is also appealing and I'd love to meet Connie too and see Mike > again...next it'll have to be an around-the-world to celebrate Jon's > retirement from Govt to keep him out of trouble;-). > ====== Long Island: Long on Innovation. OK, seriously though, it's the birthplace and prototype of modern suburbia as we know it. Levittown. I am just blocks from the city line, I could bring you all to the temple I attend (the New York Buddhist Vihara http://www.newyorkbuddhist.org) and speak with the monks. I'm not supposed to let this out but I believe the high monk here is somewhat world-renowned, he goes to international conferences in Asia and the like, you might like to meet him. Other than that, though, there's not that much I could show you. I was born in Manhattan but we left when I was two so I can't give you a sightseeing tour, nor do I think my parents would feel good to have people they don't know coming over to the house. But I think meeting up with you guys would be cool. Real life interpersonal communication does have its advantages over Internet chat lines or study groups. Peace, A.L. P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). The current picture is a very recent one, so that's how I look without my beard.. which I may grow back when the weather cools down. I get comments about being religious just for letting it go, and I kinda do thing it's religious.. I love the classic passage "A householder or householder's son hears the Dhamma and gains faith in the Tathagata, and [...] considers, "Why don't I shave off my head and beard and go forth into the homeless life." Well I'm not doing that now so I don't mind the beard. It grows in fast. But I digress. Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some initial concerns out of the wahy? Peace, for real this time, A.l. ;) 46511 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran/ Howard kenhowardau Hi Howard, You wrote: -------------------- > Ken this is a *very* interesting insight (in the conventional sense :-) and a *very* interesting conjecture!! It would be fascinating to examine other usages of "in detail" or "in its details"!!! --------------------- Thanks Howard. As you know, I think the Dhamma is always about absolute reality. If the suttas occasionally say explicitly that a particular part of the teaching is about absolute reality that doesn't mean the rest is about concepts. If a mother tells her children, "Behave yourselves in school today," that doesn't mean, "Misbehave at other times." :-) Ken H 46512 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 8:45pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Your brief comment was, > ps. I don't argue it because I don't know a single Pali word which has > only one meaning (and most of them have several)! ;-)) The several meanings, given in the Pali Text Society Dictionary for example, can innocently cause a huge trouble. The most negative consequence is that it allows people who have the inclination to twist the Buddha's words (in the suttas) a freedom to create their own verion. This is a danger to the sasana. So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > Hi, James and Sarah - > > > > I am curious about the two definitions of jhana that James was talking about. Can you repeat them for me, Sarah? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Tep > > You can find information about them in the Useful Posts in the Files > section under the category heading of "Jhana- Two Meanings". > > Metta, > James (snipped) 46513 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:04pm Subject: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be your answer and why? Kind regards, Tep ====== 46514 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Howard), Thanks for your help with this. I agree with everything you have said, but I want to talk, again, about possibly taking anatta too far. If I have gone at it like a bull at a gate, it wouldn't be the first time. See what you think: ------------------------------- .... S: Yes, conditions are never simple. Good can condition bad by this condition and vice versa. Also, of course, akusala kamma can bring its result anytime with the support of this condition again. Without a basic understanding of kamma, it can seem that good acts bring bad results and so on, but this is wrong. As Nina's post on wrong view (di.t.thi) in the Vism series stressed, wrong view about kamma is the most dangerous, because if one doesnt have confidence in the connection between good deeds and results, one can do anything. ------------------ We are talking about two separate things here. Firstly, "Conditions are never simple." Accordingly, it is a mistake to think, of any conventional reality; "This is kusala kamma; that akusala kamma; this is desirable vipaka; that is undesirable vipaka; this came about by natural decisive support condition, . . . and so on." Secondly, we know (despite conventional evidence to the contrary) that kusala kamma brings desirable results and akusala kamma brings undesirable results. Bearing those two different things in mind, isn't it sensible to learn about the conditioned realities; dana, sila and bhavana, without trying to practise them? (I know this is consistent with opinions you have expressed many times, but can it be taken too far?) So, for example, if a house has termites its owner should have it fumigated - because that's what householders do. He might be running a grave risk: life here and now might be comfortable and termite free, but the next life (or one after that) might be far less comfortable as a result of his kamma. So be it. It is a risk householders take. From time to time, a charity collector will knock on the door and the householder will duly give $5. Again, there should be no attempt at identifying; "This is willingness to give; that is reluctance to give; this will bring happy/unhappy results," or anything of that sort. Whatever will be will be. It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of knowingness would be just another idea of control. What do you think? Ken H PS: It might sound like I'm depressed about this, but I'm not. I certainly don't mean to be painting a picture of helplessness and hopelessness (thank you Howard) :-) quite the reverse. 46515 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > > Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is > neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the > gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be > your answer and why? > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > > > ====== Dear Tep, I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. One one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and finally settles down. With Metta, Lisa 46516 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 9, 2005 10:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 217 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] By akusala one harms oneself, other people or both oneself and other people. We may find it difficult to see that even when we do not harm or hurt others, the citta can still be akusala. For example, when we like nature, there is a degree of attachment and attachment is not kusala, it is different from unselfishness. We may see the danger of akusala which is coarse, but it is difficult to see the danger of akusala which is more subtle. However, through the study of the Dhamma we can acquire more understanding of akusala dhammas and then we may begin to see the danger of all degrees of akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46517 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? Oh, I didn't do it in your style; I have my own style. But, to use your more direct style, I don't think it is your place to lecture me about what a `good Buddhist' should and should not do. Think about it. Metta, James 46518 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] The statement that Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Chris & all), How very nice to hear from you again after such a long break from the list!!* --- axtran wrote: > Ven. Assaji taught Ven. Sariputta the following during their first > meeting: > > Whatever phenomena arise from cause: > their cause > and their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative. ... S: I’m also used to seeing hetu translated here in the singular ‘cause’ but I’m not sure whether the meaning is affected either way. Chris, thanks for so helpfully providing the Pali and further comments for reflection. (Of course, the conditions may be long, long in the past, not just ‘present’. So I don’t think it’s right to say that the dhamma is present when the hetu is present.) Nyanaponika’s translation makes the best sense to me: “Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathagata has told the cause, And also what their cessation is: This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse”. ..... > Some Christian uses the singular word "cause" in the first line to > imply that the Lord Buddha meant God the Creator . .... S: Alex, I seem to remember that you don’t mind quotes from the commentaries, so I have a couple from Vibhanga-a (transl as ‘Dispeller’, PTS) which I think might be helpful as they touch on the question of ‘Creator’(a and b) and also single/multiple causes (c): a)430, Classification of the Truths “...the knowledge of suffering puts a stop to mistaken theory about the fruit, which is called [seeing] lastingness, beauty, pleasure and self; and as knowledge of arising it puts a stop to mistaken theory about cause which occurs as finding a reason when there is none, such as: ‘The world occurs due to a creator, a [first] cause, time, nature (individual essence)’, etc; as knowledge of cessation it puts a stop to mistaken theory about cessation which consists in taking final deliverance to be in the immaterial world or in a World Apex and so on; as path knowledge it puts a stop to mistaken theory about the means which occurs in taking to be the way of purification what is not the way of purification, and which consists in devotion to indulgence in sense-desire and self-mortification. Hence this is said: ‘And while, about the world, the world’s arising, The world’s cessation, and the means thereto, A man’s confused, so long is he unable To recognize [and understand] the Truths’ “ ..... b)2443 “Issara-nimmaana-hetu (‘because of a lord’s creation’).....This is the doctrine of the Brahmins..For this is their intention..........or without cause or condition; but it is only because of creation by a lord that one experiences them.....Likewise they rule out all the above-mentioned kinds of kamma beginning with that to be experienced here and now without accepting even one. Ahetu-paccayaa (‘without cause and without condition’): without the cause and a condition; the meaning is that one experiences owing to no reason. This is the doctrine of the Aajiivakas. Those who assert thus also rule out all the above-mentioned causes and ailments without accepting even one of them.” .... c)669 [No Single Fruit from Single Cause], under Classification of the Structure of Conditions “Here it may be said” ‘but how is this? Is ignorance the only condition for formations, or are there other conditions? But how is it here? For firstly, if it is the only one, there follows the assertion of a single cause; but then, if there are others, the description of it as a single cause, namely, ‘with ignorance as condition formations [arise]’, is incorrect.’ It is not incorrect. Why not? Because: ‘Nor from a single cause arise One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; ‘Tis helpful, though, to utilize One cause and fruit as representative.’” ... “For the Blessed One uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit [the inclinations of] those susceptible to being taught. [And he does so] in some instances because it is a basic factor, in some instances because of obviousness and in some instances because of being not shared.” .... > Please help me to find those lines in Pali and please explain why > the word "cause" of the first line should be singular. ... S: Chris provided the Pali. I think that hetu (cause, condition) is singular, but pabhavaa (arising or originating) agrees with dhammaa in the plural, so: “ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa Tesam hetum Tathaagato aaha etc “Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathagata has told the cause...” .... S: Again we’d need some Pali expertise to confirm. Hope to hear more from you, Alex! Metta, Sarah * All, Alex (who is female:)) was one of the very first handful of members on the list along with RobertK and Mike. Maybe Dan and Howard too.... Alex, do you still have much contact with the Vietnamese Buddhist community in the States? Weren’t you involved in some translation work into Vietnamese too? Hope your family are all doing well now after the loss you experienced then. ======= 46519 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D sarahprocter... Hi James (& Tep), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our > responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. > > James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of > jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped > view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? ... S: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. .... >Oh, I didn't do it > in your style; I have my own style. But, to use your more direct > style, I don't think it is your place to lecture me about what a `good > Buddhist' should and should not do. Think about it. ... S: I took it just to be an encouragement to everyone to keep sharing and understanding of the teachings we may have (and particularly to those like you who question and challenge the perceived DSG party line here:-)). I do hope you select a sutta for Tep's quiz and that others do too. I know yours will be very well-considered! Tep, what's yours? Tep, I think I'd say that the Migajaala Sutta, which I quoted from the other day, is the sutta which consistently for 30 years has had and continues to have most impact on me and I think meets your criteria. I'm moved just by the thought of it. I think it contains everything we need to hear in essence --the dhammas to be known, the cause of bondage, the way out, the meaning of living alone, anatta and especially the eradication of wrong views about times and places for practice. Also we crave for the perfect partner, but the partner is craving which has to be abandoned.....learning to live alone with visbible objects, sounds and so on. I find it incredibly uplifting: SN35:63. "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." S: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. In fact, the reverse: "There are, Migajala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. When there is no delight, there is no infatuation. When there is no infatuation, there is no bondage. Released from the fetter of delight, Migajala, a bhikkhu is called a lone dweller. (same for sounds, odours, tastes, tacticle objects, mental phenomena) "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." Metta, Sarah p.s James, did you see KenH is another robot?? No surprise to you -- another cold, heartless case:). (KenH- Jon also got a 0% for extroverted, also for the last 2 categories as I recall, but it's not quite fair b.c I did it for him. I wasn't quite so extreme -- definitely a talk-show host rather than an accountant!!). ============================== 46520 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:03am Subject: Sequel to Musings1: "It is by discussion ....that his wisdom is to be known...." sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Last time I quoted the following from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas briefly on how it’s possible to know someone’s virtue, honesty, courage and wisdom: 1.“It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 2.“It is by dealing with someone, great king, that his honesty is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 3.“It is in adversities, great king, that a person’s fortitude is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 4.“It is by discussion with someone, great king, that his wisdom is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** Another sutta, AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta)], adds more detail after giving exactly the same summary as above with the same emphasis on ‘after a long time’. I’ll just select further extracts on these four topics as I find them interesting: 1. Virtue (siila) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by associating with him: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are incongruous, inconsistent, shady and spotted. His deeds are not consistent, his habits are not consistent with morals. This worthy is immoral, he is not virtuous. "Herein again, monks, by associating with him one knows of another person: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are congruous, consistent, not shady, not spotted. His deeds are consistent, his habits are consistent with morals. This worthy is moral, he is virtuous. "Indeed, monks, it is by association that one’s virtue is to be understood and that too after a long time......” 2. Integrity/Honesty (soceyya”n) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by living with him: This worthy, when with one person, behaves in one way; when with two persons, in another way; when with three, in yet another way; again otherwise when with many. In his former behaviour he departs from his latter behaviour. This worthy is not honest in his behaviour. This worthy is dishonest. "In this case again, monks, a person knows another by living with him. (So he concludes:) This worthy when with one person behaves just as he does with two, three or many. In his former behaviour he dparts not from his latter behaviour. This worthy is honest, he is not dishonest. "Indeed, monks, it is by living with him that a man’s integrity is to be understood....” 3. Courage/Fortitude (thaamo) “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness. So he, afflicted by loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, sorrows, laments, is distressed and knocks his breast, wails and falls into utter bewilderment. "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world.....and unhappiness. He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......” 4. Wisdom (pa~n~naa) “In this case, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is weak in wisdom, he is not wise. What is the cause of that? In the case in question this worthy utters no profound profitable sentence (attha-padda”n) that calms, is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning (atakkaavacara”n), that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is not competent, either in brief or in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is weak in wisdom, he is not wise..... "Herein again, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom (pa~n~navaa). What is the cause of that? "In the case in question this worthy can utter a profound, profitable sentence, that calms, that is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning, that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is competent, both in brief and in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom. "Just as if, monks, a man with good eyesight, standing on the bank of a pool of water, were to see a big fish rising, he would think: Judging by the uprise of this fish, judging by the size of the ripple it makes, judging by its speed, this is a big fish; this is not a small fish: - just in the same way, monks, a person, by conversing with another, knows thus of him: judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom.” ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 46521 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? nilovg Hi Tep, op 09-06-2005 02:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: ....>>N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference between >> concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great > confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is > and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be > discerned? ... > Tep: I can't help thinking that you are making vipassana, especially > contemplation on the five aggregates, too difficult because you are > promoting the nitty-gritty details of paramattha dhamma. New > Buddhists who want to contemplate the five aggregates might be > scared away, if they have to become experts in the paramattha > dhamma first ! N: Good point. Please hang on. During our trip I shall discuss with Lodewijk Dhamma for beginners. For now I shall just add a little. T: The sutta approach to the panca khandha is straightforward. Rupa is > the first aggregate, and nama means the remaining four aggragrates. > There are countless number of suttas that never categorize rupa and > nama into details as in a paramattha-dhamma book. ---------- N: I do not see paramattha dhammas as bookish. We do not have to use the word paramattha dhammas. But in fact the five khandhas are nothing else but three paramattha dhammas (nibbaana is excluded). Khandha or (paramattha) dhamma is not different from daily life. Nama and rupa apearing through six doors, is that scaring for beginners? -------- T: For example, only > the four basic elements (not the 18 elements - Vism. XIV, 32) and some > of the 24 derived materialities are mentioned in the suttas; the 6 internal > and 6 external bases(ayatanas) are referenced in the suttas ------- N: And the cittas experiencing objects through the six doors, see for example Kindred Sayings IV. But more details are given in the Abhidhamma, that is true. It depends on the student's interest how many details he wants to know. But one should not forget that dhammas are taught with the aim to penetrate their characteristics when they appear. -------- T: only a > small number of sankhara (kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara) plus a > subset of the 50 cetasikas are seen in the suttas; -------- N: sankhaarakkhandha is different from kaya-, vaci- and mano-sankhara. The latter is another notion, see Nyanatiloka's dictionnary. sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara has several meanings in different contexts. -------- T: small number of the > 89 cittas were mentioned by the Buddha; concepts and ultimate > realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. --------- N: His whole teaching is about this: we may believe that there is a person (concept) but what is there in reality: fleeting elements. See the Elephant's Footprint Simile. The monk is scolded by someone. What is there? Only elements. There is ear-contact. He sees that there are only impersonal elements. ------- T: For example, DN 22 is one of the suttas that straightforwardly teach > contemplation of the five aggreagtes, and it does not intimidate > beginners. _____ N: Not only the five khandhas, many, many other subjects. But the main thing is not seeing self in the body, feelings, citta, dhammas. This implies: knowing the difference between concept (self) and nama and rupa. ***** Nina. 46522 From: nina Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 165 and Tiika nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 165. Agitation. Intro: As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Since akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, there is restlessness time and again. The Tiika of Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 93, describes udhacca as lack of calm or distraction (vikkhepo). ******* Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. N: The Pali term uddhacca, agitation, is explained as uddhatabhaavo, here translated as agitatedness. Uddhatabhaavo is the nature of having been lifted up too high, being out of balance (in PED). Uddhata is p.p. of uddharati, to lift up. Uddha means high. Thus, uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. Then the Tiika adds: the dhamma because of which the citta or the accompanying dhammas are agitated, that dhamma is uddhacca. ---------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by the wind. -------- N: The Tiika uses here the terms disquiet and impure, appasannabhaava. Akusala citta that is always accompanied by agitation is not pure. ----------- Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped by the wind. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that it has the function of shaking (calana). This is a term describing the unsteadfastness of uddhacca. --------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. --------- N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in the way of reeling about. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise attention to mental disquiet. It should be regarded as distraction of consciousness. -------- N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of all kinds of akusala. The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that is experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. When akusala citta arises it experiences an object in the unwholesome way. At that moment there is ignorance that does not know the true nature of that object and uddhacca which is restless or agitated about that object. ------- Conclusion: As we have seen, the Tiika explains that the dhamma by which citta or its accompanying dhammas are restless, is the dhamma that is uddhacca, restlessness. Uddhacca is referred to as 'that dhamma', 'so dhamma'. This reminds us that it does not belong to a person, that we should not take it for 'my agitation'. It is only a conditioned dhamma. The citta and accompanying cetasikas are conditioned by udhhacca, they are all restless and distracted, forgetful of kusala. It is often said with regard to a cetasika that this dhamma itself is of such or such quality, and that it also makes the accompanying dhammas in that way. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition one another. When akusala citta arises it is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and these support it in the unwholesome way. The citta lacks the support of the sobhana cetasikas such as confidence, calm, wieldiness and balance, it cannot apply itself to daana, siila, samatha or vipassanaa. The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady as water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting with stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. Restlessness forms a pair with kukkuccha, worry, and it is one of the five hindrances. Restlessness arises innumerable times a day, but we do not notice it. It arises with cittas rooted in lobha, with cittas rooted in dosa and cittas which have moha as their only root. When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then there is uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent feeling. Akusala citta may be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and at that moment there is also uddhacca. Ignorance always arises together with uddhacca and it darkens its true nature. Only the arahat has eradicated uddhacca. ***** Nina. 46523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas' study corner 215 - Zeal/chanda (o) nilovg Hi Phil, Thank you very much. op 09-06-2005 13:06 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> i What is the difference between chanda and lobha? > > Lobha is akusala and chanda can be either akusala or kusala. > Since there is akusala far more often than kusala, safe to say that > chanda is akusala more often than not. ------------ Citta rooted in lobha is accompanied by chanda. Suppose, there is clinging to good food. Lobha clings, it would not be able to get the object of clinging. Chanda is necessary to obtain that object. --------- >> ii How can one know the difference between kusala chanda >> and lobha? >Maybe we can use the chocolate cake test... .. I would get irritated if I couldn't read my Samyutta NIkaya > anthology in the morning so that is a sign that there is a lot of > lobha in my Dhamma study. The chanda then would be unwholesome. ------- N: It is still good to read, it is bhavana. But it is natural that also lobha arises. -------- Ph: iii Does kusala chanda always arise when we perform >> wholesome deeds? > > If they are wholesome, there is kusala chanda, but lobha can > quickly follow. I need to re-read Deeds of Merit. If, for example, a > parent donates to a temple in the hope of his or her child getting > into a good university, which often happens in Japan, would that be > considered a wholesome deed by virtue of the recipient of the > donation, even though self-interest was involved on the part of the > donor? --------- N: Only that person can tell. There is likely to be a mixture of akusala and kusala. In that case the generosity is not a perfection. When it is a perfection one's objective is eradication of akusala, and one does not think of one's own profit. -------- Ph: iv Akusala cetasikas arise only with akusala cittas and sobhana >> cetasikas arise only with sobhana cittas. The aññasamån?E> > cetasikas arise with cittas of the four jåtis. Is it correct to say >> that the latter types are neither wholesome nor >> unwholesome? > Not correct. They are either wholesome or unwholesome, not neither > nor. -------- N: The cetasikas that accompany a citta are of the same jaati as that citta. When they are kusala they are different from when they are akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. ----------- >> >> v Why is it helpful to know that cetasikas such as viriya or pú`i >> can be at one moment kusala and shortly afterwards >> akusala and thus entirely different? ..... It is so easy for people to forget that energy > (virya) and enthusiasm (piti) are not always wholesome and are in > fact usually unwholesome - they have such wholesome connotations in > our culture. ------ N: Very good reminder. --------- PH: vi Can the study of the different cetasikas help us with the >> development of the Path? In what way? > > Well, understanding virya better will help to condition wholesome > virya, and since wholesome virya is right effort, a path factor will > begin to be developed. That applies to other path factors as well > though. ------------ N: The aim of the eightfold Path is the realization of the four noble Truths and thereby eradicatiing wrong view and later on all defilements. Our first aim is to see dhammas as they really are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. But we have to begin to see dhamma as dhamma. The study of the cetasikas and awareness of those that appear helps to have more understanding of anattaa. It helps us to see their conditions, how nama dhammas that arise together condition one another. We better understand that not 'we' can decide to develop kusala and understanding, that so many conditions are needed. Kh. Sujin once said that we should Some people misunderstood this, but the real meaning is having more understanding of anattaa. Nina. 46524 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:01am Subject: Crucial Necessity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What has to be Understood ? The nature of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Cause of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The End of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Way to End Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The nature of Birth has to be Understood. The Cause of Birth has to be Understood. The End of Birth has to be Understood. The Way to End Birth has to be Understood. The nature of Clinging has to be Understood. The Cause of Clinging has to be Understood. The End of Clinging has to be Understood. The Way to End Clinging has to be Understood. The nature of Craving has to be Understood. The Cause of Craving has to be Understood. The End of Craving has to be Understood. The Way to End Craving has to be Understood. The nature of Feeling has to be Understood. The Cause of Feeling has to be Understood. The End of Feeling has to be Understood. The Way to End Feeling has to be Understood. The nature of Contact has to be Understood. The Cause of Contact has to be Understood. The End of Contact has to be Understood. The Way to End Contact has to be Understood. The nature of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Cause of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The End of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Way to End the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The nature of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Cause of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The End of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Way to End Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The nature of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Cause of Consciousness has to be Understood. The End of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Way to End Consciousness has to be Understood. The nature of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Cause of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The End of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Way to End Mental Construction has to be Understood. The nature of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Cause of Ignorance has to be Understood. The End of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Way to End Ignorance has to be Understood. These have to be Understood... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 16 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46525 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:51am Subject: Jintamaya panna? philofillet Hi all Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? I couldn't find this term in the glossary - I probably misheard... Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46526 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Hi Phil, It must be "cintamaya-pañña" (intellectual understanding, or thinking about realities). Clinging to cintamayapañña and confusing it with direct understanding is certainly a big danger. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? > I couldn't find this term in the glossary - I probably misheard... > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 46527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran nilovg Dear Ken H, thank you for your further report. op 09-06-2005 03:08 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > > However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only > nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" > that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I > think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to > panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not > experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) --------- N: The cetasikas share the same object as the citta that is the chief in knowing. The cetasikas experience it each in their own way while they perform their own functions. -------- K: Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over > for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is > walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in > detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the > suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? ------- The Co explains that is not like animals who know when they are walking. Here the word detail is not used. In other contexts it can have different meanings, but now I cannot check the Pali. Nina. 46528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline nilovg Hi Andrew, You raise many points and it is difficult to explain much in one letter. I try to take out some points. Moreover, I am going away on Sunday until Thursday. op 08-06-2005 19:58 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: Maybe satipatthana is the wrong word. > Transcendence? I've done both so I could sort of get it together. The > point is, it's rare for this state to manifest nowadays, and I can't > summon it at will. ------- N: That is a good sign, that I would call progress. To realize that we cannot order certain states at will. It helps one to understand at least intellectually anatta. ------- > It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to > the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my > parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how > life is short for all of us) -------- N: That is kusala. But the next moment, akusala is likely to arise. That is natural. ------------- A: >> N: Desire, anger and delusion or ignorance are the three akusala > roots. Fear >> is another form of dosa, aversion. All akusala cittas are rooted in > moha, >> ignorance, not knowing what is kusala or akusala. Some cittas are > rooted in >> lobha, attachment, as well, or in dosa, aversion, as well, some > have moha, >> ignorance, as their only root. >> All sorts of evil deeds come from these roots, depending on what > has been >> accumulated in the past. A: Nina I don't think you really answered the question but I'm not sure > if it would help anyway. You say all akusala is rooted in these four > things, but are these four things always akusala? -------------- N: Yes, always. Akusala is akusala and its characteristic cannot be changed. However, there are many degrees and forms of them. They can be subtle and more coarse. --------- A:Is it that that is > the 'evil' nature of acting of them, or is it merely that it is > through these four that we do other evil deeds, ------ N: I would say: the three akusala roots can motivate many kinds of akusala through body, speech and mind. -------- A: so say, acting out of > fear to save one's life might be acceptable... -------- N: Fear just arises, and we cannot say: let me have no fear. We are worldlings, we have not eradicated defilements. When running away to save your life there are likely to be cittas with fear, which is a form of aversion or dosa, but not necessarily so. ----------- A:>> N: We have craving anyway, it is not eradicated. Wrong view has to > be >> eradicated first. > Perhaps. Maybe we can get started helping me learn cittas again? If > wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala > roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of > attachment. Well, I guess what that means is that I still do have > wrong view. :P Sounds good. >> ---------- N: Understanding has to be built up, beginning with correct intellectual understanding. It depends on a person's interest how many details he wants to learn. It should not be forced. --------- A: >> N: We also accumulated wholesome qualities, and when there are > conditions >> kusala cittas arise. But akusala cittas are arising far more often, > such is >> life. > > OK, but what is the cause for us to do these good deeds? Reading > suttas, for example? If it is done out of a sense of duty or > discipline, perhaps out of wholesome desire, it is not akusala. > Basically if I don't want to read Digha Nikaya because I like it > (don't want to act out of attachment), what better root can there be > to motivate me to read it? ------- N: To have more understanding. In between lobha arises anyway, but the goal is having more understanding. That alone can eradicate wrong view. As Phil suggested, we should not worry about that. >> ------------ A: >> N:. The citta is the source of our deeds. How to > know >> oneself? Through mindfulness of nama and rupa. A: Sounds mostly OK, but I would say to know one's intention before you > act, you needn't know the whole citta or its cetasikes. --------- N: The big question is, is there any time to sit down and ponder over one's intention? Mostly we act on the spur of the moment. It depends on one's accumulated understanding whether he realizes what type of citta motivates a deed. There is no rule at all. ------- >> -------- >> A: ... I take the instructions from the satipatthana sutta >>> to mean, one knows a pleasant feeling as pleasant, painful as >>> painful, knowing all that arises and passes in one's body or mind, >>> or to the highest extent possible, ie more intensive practise that >>> will be combined with following this discipline. The merging of > two >>> disciplines, it could be. >> ----- N:>> They are >> conditioned by many factors and cannot be directed at will. >> Instead of a more intensive practice I am inclined to say: a natural >> practice, not forced, because then it seems that an idea of self is > taking >> over. ------ A: > Well this is kind of a grey area. I do not know exactly how to > practise as I've not looked deeply into the Satipatthana sutta and > its commentary, but behavioral exercises seem to be OK. I would > still say we can start with idea of self to practise that which > removes permanently the idea of self. ---------- N: It would be better not to wonder how shall I practise. I do not think we can decide: today I shall practise. It has to grow. It grows from correct intellectual understanding, acquired by reading, by discussing about the objects of awareness, by listening. Have you tried DSG org. the audios? Sarah is quoting AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta, and I like the part on courage, about the worldly conditions. They happen all the time and when these are unpleasant it is helpful that it is kamma that condiitons them. <3. Courage/Fortitude (thaamo) “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness. So he, afflicted by loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, sorrows, laments, is distressed and knocks his breast, wails and falls into utter bewilderment. "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world.....and unhappiness. He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......> Nina. 46529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jintamaya panna? nilovg Hi Phil, cinta-maya-paññaa. I do not know the context here, but also when insight is tender insight, there is still thinking arising in between. Later on, when insight is more developed there is no need anymore to think of nama and rupa. And even the thinking that arises can be realized as a type of nama. This was formerly explained by Kh Sujin. Thus, cinta-maya paññaa is not merely intellectual understanding, as I understood. Nina. op 10-06-2005 15:51 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? 46530 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Dear Nina and Phil, Doesn't cintamayapañña refer to the kind of pañña that arises from thinking? Would you then say that the tender insight itself is cintamayapañña because it inspires subsequent thinking? Or that the thinking about tender insight is cintamayapañña? I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña (ratiocination). The distinction between tender insight pañña and intellectual understanding pañña is not at all a difference of degree (shallow vs. deeper) but a difference in character (cogitation vs. insight). They are not in the least bit similar. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > cinta-maya-paññaa. > I do not know the context here, but also when insight is tender insight, > there is still thinking arising in between. Later on, when insight is more > developed there is no need anymore to think of nama and rupa. And even the > thinking that arises can be realized as a type of nama. > This was formerly explained by Kh Sujin. Thus, cinta-maya paññaa is not > merely intellectual understanding, as I understood. > Nina. > op 10-06-2005 15:51 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > Listening to a very good talk tonight in which Kh Sujin warned > > against mistaking thinking about realities (e.g nama rising and > > falling) for the real understanding. She said the former is "only > > jintamaya panna" or something that sounded like that. Would this be a > > shallow degree of panna, panna that is just intellectual understanding? 46531 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cintamaya panna? nilovg Hi Dan, I know very little about this subject. I just wrote what I remembered from discussions. When in Thailand people thought that this is only thinking, and Kh. Sujin explained that there is more to it, that it is already insight. As I explained in my other post. Now, in the Visuddhimagga we learnt that it is understanding acquired from one's own thinking without having heard it from others. Thus, this is in another context. We came across this at the beginning of Ch XIV. The difficulty is that it has different meanings depending on the context. Nina. op 10-06-2005 18:28 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) > and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña > (ratiocination). T 46532 From: "frank" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 0:36pm Subject: 12 links... RE: [dsg] Crucial Necessity ... !!! dhamma_service I counted 11 links. Why is the 12th link omitted? I do recall there were a couple of cases where there were fewer than 12 listed in the dependent arising formula in the pali suttas, but I don't recall there being one with exactly 11. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bhikkhu Samahita Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:01 PM To: 1.6A; 1.5A Subject: [dsg] Crucial Necessity ... !!! Friends: What has to be Understood ? The nature of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Cause of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The End of Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The Way to End Ageing, & death has to be Understood. The nature of Birth has to be Understood. The Cause of Birth has to be Understood. The End of Birth has to be Understood. The Way to End Birth has to be Understood. The nature of Clinging has to be Understood. The Cause of Clinging has to be Understood. The End of Clinging has to be Understood. The Way to End Clinging has to be Understood. The nature of Craving has to be Understood. The Cause of Craving has to be Understood. The End of Craving has to be Understood. The Way to End Craving has to be Understood. The nature of Feeling has to be Understood. The Cause of Feeling has to be Understood. The End of Feeling has to be Understood. The Way to End Feeling has to be Understood. The nature of Contact has to be Understood. The Cause of Contact has to be Understood. The End of Contact has to be Understood. The Way to End Contact has to be Understood. The nature of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Cause of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The End of the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The Way to End the 6 Senses has to be Understood. The nature of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Cause of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The End of Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The Way to End Name-&-Form has to be Understood. The nature of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Cause of Consciousness has to be Understood. The End of Consciousness has to be Understood. The Way to End Consciousness has to be Understood. The nature of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Cause of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The End of Mental Construction has to be Understood. The Way to End Mental Construction has to be Understood. The nature of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Cause of Ignorance has to be Understood. The End of Ignorance has to be Understood. The Way to End Ignorance has to be Understood. These have to be Understood... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 16 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46533 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: More on the value of listening, considering and directly understanding the D buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Tep), Sarah: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. James: Sorry if I misunderstood and therefore came on too strong. I just call a spade for a spade- that is my style. I had no intention to hurt feelings or to cause hurt feelings. Really, I am reminded of my cat. He just loves to be petted and petted but sometimes if it goes on for too long or too hard he gets tired of it, and instead of telling me- which he can't do- he will give me a little nip on the hand with his teeth. Then I stop. Just consider that post of mine a little nip on the hand. In other words, don't go there. ;-)) Sarah: I do hope you select a sutta for Tep's quiz and that others do too. I know yours will be very well-considered! Tep, what's yours? James: I was intrigued but put off by the `bring some to sotapanna' aspect of the challenge. Honestly, I still cannot get a grasp on the requirements for Sotapanna because every source I read approaches it from a different angle and lists different requirements. I would also be interested to know Tep's selection since he put forth the request. Sarah: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. In fact, the reverse: James: Honestly, it seems to me that you were looking for a reason to leave that forest temple in Sri Lanka. It probably sucked! ;-)) I have had my own hair-raising experiences in a forest temple in Thailand so I can relate to the experience. That sutta by the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to seek seclusion and to be hypocritical about it- seeking seclusion and yet partnering with craving the whole while. Of course, your Sri Lanka temple was probably hypocritical to the max (most of them are nowadays), but that doesn't mean the Buddha was telling his monks that seclusion wasn't necessary. Sarah, wake up and smell the coffee! The entire lifestyle of monks and nuns is about renunciation and very lengthy periods of seclusion and reflection. That is what makes monks and nuns different from lay folk. The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta- he was a monastic until his parinibbana! Sarah: James, did you see KenH is another robot?? No surprise to you - another cold, heartless case:). James: ;-)) Yeah, thanks to Ken H for sharing. A lot of robots around here- what's a free, bitchy spirit to do?? ;-)) Metta, James 46534 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 Hi Ken H, Sarah, Howard, Nina and all I haven't had much time to post lately as Millie, the officer manager cat well known to Cooran attendees has had a stroke and lost most of her mobility. So I am nursing her constantly ... Anyway, Ken H wrote: > It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma > grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities > are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the > case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right > understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of > knowingness would be just another idea of control. > > What do you think? I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no abiding knower. But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. Are you saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both tainted by ignorance? Best wishes Andrew T 46535 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Last week the post stopped at the middle of paragraph 174. This week we complete the long Section iii which ends at paragraph #182. For the next 7 days we should have a discussion on the 3 sections we have studied so far, so that we may all have a clearer understanding of the various knowledges (naana) to be gained by breathing meditation. The next presentation on Frriday 17th will be Section iv 's introductory paragraph #183 on the "thirty-two knowledges in mindful workers" (who mindfully breathe in and breathe out by the 16 grounds: 16x2 = 32 modes of naana). ( 174. continued...) 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said. 'Consolidated'(anutthitaa): his mindfulness has parallel turn-over with whatever he guides his cognizance by. He guided his cognizance by whatever his mindfulness has parallel turn-over with. Hence 'consolidated' was said. {Tep's note: The Thai version's for "his mindfulness has parallel turn- over with whatever he guides his cognizance by" is: however the citta is directed, his mindfulness always accompanies it in the same direction.} 'Reinforced'(paricitaa): reinforced in the sense of embracing, reinforced in the sense of equipment (yaanikata), reinforced in the sense of perfection. When he embraces with mindfulness, he conquers evil, unprofitable ideas. Hence 'reinforced' was said. 'Brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa); there are four kinds of bringing to very sameness: bringing to very sameness in the sense of nonexcess(anativattana) of ideas arisen therein, bringing to very sameness in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties, bringing to very sameness in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy, bringing to very sameness owing to verisimilar abolition (susamugghaatattaa) of defilements opposed thereto. 'Very sameness' (susamam):[The pun on the word samma (same) connecting it with sammati(pp. santo calmed) and here also with the prefix sam (= con-), occurs a number of times in this work. See refs for 'same' in index.] There is sameness(samam) and very sameness. What is sameness? Ideas there arisen that are blameless and partake of enlightenment: this is sameness. What is very sameness? The supporting object for such ideas, namely, cessation, nibbana: this is very sameness. This sameness and this very sameness are known, seen, recognized, realized, sounded with understanding; tireless energy is brought to bear(aaraddha), established (founded) mindfulness is unremitting, the tranquillized body brings no trouble (asaaraddho), concentrated cognizance is unified. Hence 'brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa) was said. 175. 'Gradually brought to growth': previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth(paricita) by long in-breath, previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth by long out- breath, ... [and so on with the rest of the 32 modes, see paragraph #183 below, up to] ... previously prepared for growth and subsequently brought to growth by out-breath contemplating relinquishment (patinissagga). Also all the varietiesof mindfulness of breathing with its sixteen grounds are prepared for growth and brought to growth interdependently. Hence 'gradually brought to growth' was said. {Tep's note: the Pali Text Society says that anu + pubba = following in one's turn, successive, gradual, and 'paricita' = gathered, accumulated, collected, increased. Hence, 'gradually brought to growth' = successively accumulated (from the first to the last ground). The Pali 'paricita' is translated as "ob-rom" in Thai, i.e. to train so as to establish a certain quality or ability.} 176. 'According as'(yathaa): there are ten meanings of 'according as', namely, meaning of 'according as' as meaning of self-control (attadamatha), meaning of 'according as' as meaning of serenity (samatha) in oneself, ... as meaning of extinguishment(parinibbhaana) in oneself, ...as meaning of direct knowledge(abhinna), ...as meaning of full understanding(parinna), ...as meaning of abandoning (pahaana), ...as meaning of developing(bhaavanaa),... as meaning of realizing(sacchikiriyaa), ... as meaning of convergent(abhisamaya) upon actuality(sacca), meaning of 'according as' as meaning of establishment(upatthaana) in cessation(nirodha). {Tep's note: The Pali Text Society says that Damatha = taming, subduing, mastery, restraint, control. Hence, attadamatha is self control. However, for comparison purpose, the Thai version for this term is " self training". The Thai word for 'direct knowledge' is 'roo-ying' (abhi = ying, nana = roo), and 'kamnod-roo' is 'full understanding'. But 'kamnod' does not mean 'full', it means mindfully aware.} 177. 'Buddha' (Enlightened One): he who is the Blessed One, who is what he is of himself, without teacher in ideas not heard before, [Read anaacariyako pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu.] who discovered (abhisambujjhati) the actualities by himself, reached omniscient knowledge therein and the powers and mastery. 'Buddha': in what sense 'buddha'? He is the discoverer(bujjhitar) of the actualities, thus he is enlightened(buddha). He is the awakener (bodhetar) of the generation, thus he is enlightened. He is enlightened by omniscience, enlightened by seeing all, enlightened without dependence on others' instruction, enlightened because of majesty, [Visavitaaya--(majesty) burgeoning': not in PTS Dict. : see Tr. XXII 5 (Ps ii 205, PsA 655 PTS edn.); Cf. Dhs AA 65 Viyodaya edn.: 'Vissavitaayaa ti arahataaya'.] he is enlightened through the quality of having exhausted cankers, enlightened through the quality of being free from the essentials of being. He is quite without greed, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without hate, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without delusion, thus he is enlightened; he is quite without defilement, thus he is enlightened; he has travelled the path that goes on only one way, thus he is enlightened; he alone discovered the peerless full enlightenment, thus he is enlightened. He is enlightened because he has destroyed unenlightenment and obtained enlightenment. 'Buddha':this is not a name made by a mother, made by a father, made by a brother, made by a sister, made by friends and companions, made by relatives and kin, made by ascetics and brahmans, made by deities: this is a name(derived) from the final liberation of the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, together with the obtainment omniscient knowledge at the root of the Enlightenment Tree, this name 'Enlightened One(Buddha)' is a description(concept) based on realization. 178. 'Taught': According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of self control. According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of serenity in oneself ... [and so on as in #176 up to] ... According as the Buddha taught, the meaning of 'according as' being the meaning of establishment in cessation. 179. 'He' : he is a layman or one gone forth into homelessness. 180. 'World' : world of aggregates, world of principles, world of bases, world of misfortune, world productive of misfortune, world of good fortune, world productive of good fortune. One world: All beings subsist by nutriment. Two worlds: Mentality and materiality. Three worlds: Three kinds of feeling. Four worlds: Four kinds of nutriment. Five worlds: Five aggregates as objects of clinging. Six worlds: Six internal bases. Seven worlds: Seven stations of consciousness. Eight worlds: Eight worldly ideas. Nine worlds: Nine bodes of beings. Ten worlds: Ten bases [excluding mind and ideas]. Twelve worlds: Twelve bases. Eighteen worlds: Eighteen principles. 181. 'Illuminates': Having discovered the meaning of 'according as'(yathaa) to be the meaning of self control, he is a luminary illuminating, illuminating, this world. Having discovered the meaning of 'according as' to be the meaning of serenity(samatha) in oneself ... [and so on as in # 176 up to] ... discovered the meaning of 'according as' to be the meaning of establishment(upatthaana) in cessation, he is a luminary illuminating, illuminating, this world. 182. 'Just like the full moon free from cloud': Defilements(kilesa) are like clouds, the noble ones' knowledge is like the moon. The bhikkhu is like the deity's son who possesses the full moon. As the moon when freed from cloud, freed from mist, freed from smoke and dust, delivered from the clutches of the Eclipse-Demon Raahu, gleams and glows and shines, so too the bhikkhu who is delivered from all defilements gleams and glows and shines. Hence 'just like the full moon free from cloud' was said. These are the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing(vodaana). End of Recitation Section * * * Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ======================================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > The presentation of the 'thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing' > (Group III) continues today. Again, please be reminded that words > within square brackets [ ] most of the times are Commentary. > > 24. What is the beginning, the middle, and the end, of the second > jhana? > (snipped) > > Tep's Note: We shall complete this long Section iii in the next post -- to > be presented next Friday (6/10). I also plan to write a discussion of > Section iii following the next Friday posting. I hope that the material so > far is interesting enough to capture your attention. There are several > terms (and their Pali) that have to be studied carefully, especially those > related to establishing of mindfulness and development of cognizance > by means of breathing meditation. What three ideas must be known > such that "cognizance does not become distracted, and he manifests > endeavour, carries out a task, and achieves a distinctive effect" ? > > > 46536 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Cohesive Co-Origination ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What Causes this Conditioned Chain of Emergence ? What is Dependent Co-Origination ? Condensed: When this is present, that too is in existence. When this arises, that too emerges. In Detail: The condition of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to arise. The condition of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to arise. The condition of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to arise. The condition of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to arise. The condition of The 6 Senses causes Contact to arise. The condition of Contact causes Feeling to arise. The condition of Feeling causes Craving to arise. The condition of Craving causes Clinging to arise. The condition of Clinging causes Becoming to arise. The condition of Becoming causes Birth to arise. The condition of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to arise. The condition of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to arise... Such is the arising of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! This is called the Wrong Way ... This is Dependent Co-Origination ! Source: Grouped Sayings on Causation. Nidana Samyutta Nikaya XII http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46537 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Dear Dan, I am Venky from Mumbai -India. What we normally say as 'bhavanamayapanna" is basically wisdom by experience. Bhavana means personal experience panna means wisdom e.g When you get angry and you begin to realise that you are getting angry and are able to not to react by realising that this anger is anatta (impermanent) and momentary and you allow to pass that moment of anger by just observing it is bhavanamayapanna that is wisdom gained by personal experience . the wisdom of anger being anatta . Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight. Insight of experiencing the fact that everything is just nama rupa (mind and matter) and not as we perceive it to be .Cintamayapanna can be more likely to be experienced by meditation and Vipasanna . Wisdom or panna is to experience and cannot be described e.g the taste of mango I ate yesterday cannot be decribed in words. I can only say it was sweet but cannot describe the sweetness as of sugar or orange or grapes or ............... Metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Dear Nina and Phil, Doesn't cintamayapañña refer to the kind of pañña that arises from thinking? Would you then say that the tender insight itself is cintamayapañña because it inspires subsequent thinking? Or that the thinking about tender insight is cintamayapañña? I'd say that the tender insight itself is bhavanamayapañña (insight) and that the later attempts to describe it are cintamayapañña (ratiocination). The distinction between tender insight pañña and intellectual understanding pañña is not at all a difference of degree (shallow vs. deeper) but a difference in character (cogitation vs. insight). They are not in the least bit similar. <....> 46538 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS balancing_life Basic Paper 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS Dhamma Cakka Pavattana Sutta ( The Discourse to Set in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma ) Buddhism is a system of philosophy with a code of Morality, Physical and Mental. The Goal in view is " Cessation of Suffering and Death." The Four Noble Truths taught by the Buddha in His first sermon to the 5 disciples, formed the basis on which is founded the system of philosophy. In fact the first three Truths expound the philosophy of the Buddha while the fourth, the Noble Eightfold Path that is a code of Morality- cum-Philosophy serve as a means for the end. The Four Noble Truths are : Dukkha Sacca = Noble Truth of Suffering, Samudaya Sacca = Noble Truth of Origin of Suffering, Nirodha Sacca = Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering, Magga Sacca = Noble Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. To come to a complete understanding of the fundamental concepts in the philosophy of the Buddha, emphasis is laid on the need for the realization of the Truth of Suffering. Truth is an incontrovertible fact. According to Buddhism there are four such Truths - all associated with man. "In this very one-fathom long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the Path leading to the cessation of the world." - Rohitassa Sutta This interesting passage refers to the Four Noble Truths, which the Buddha Himself discovered. Whether Buddhas arise or not, they exist, and it is a Buddha that reveals them to the ignorant world. These truths are in Pali termed Ariya Saccani because they were discovered by the Greatest Ariya, that is, one who is far removed from passions, or because they lead to the Ariyan state of passionlessness. The first Truth deals with Dukkha, which, for need of better English equivalent, is inappropriately rendered by suffering. As a feeling Dukkha means that which is difficult to be endured (Du-difficult, Kha - to endure). Here Dukkha is used in the sense of contemptible (Du) emptiness (Kha). The world rests on suffering (Dukkhe loko palitthito) - hence it is contemptible. It is devoid of any reality - hence it is empty or void. <...> Questions What do you learn from the Rohitassa Sutta? What is in this very one-fathom long body? If the cause of suffering is craving (tanha) then what is the cause of tanha? Answers (Module 2.3) Is telling more than it supposes to be classified as lying? Why? If one exaggerates the fact then one fulfil all the criteria of false speech. But if one only elaborate in detail without the intention to deceive then one is not consider lying. What do you understand of this: "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor takes away the life of the man. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com With Metta Alice 46539 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:07am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 218 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] When the citta is kusala, there is confidence in wholesomeness. Kusala citta is pure and it is capable of producing a pleasant result. Whereas akusala citta is impure and it leads to sorrow. At the moment of akusala citta there is no confidence in wholesomeness, one does not see that akusala citta is impure and harmful. For example, when we see a pleasant sight, akusala cittas with attachment tend to arise. At such a moment there is “unwise attention” to the object which is experienced; we are enslaved to that object and do not see the danger of akusala. Thus we go on accumulating more and more akusala. If one has not listened to the Dhamma, one does not know exactly what is kusala and what is akusala and thus there are many conditions for unwise attention to the objects which are experienced through the five sense-doors and through the minddoor. Foolish friends are also a condition for akusala cittas. The person who is inclined to akusala will associate with friends who have similar inclinations. Thus he accumulates more and more vices and then it is very difficult to turn to kusala and develop virtues. Akusala citta is bound to arise more often than kusala citta because there have been countless akusala cittas in the past and thus the conditions for akusala have been accumulated. If there is no development of right understanding akusala cannot be eradicated and we will continue to accumulate more akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46540 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: Ven. Dhammanando's seven translations of saccato thetato. nilovg Venerable bhikkhu Dhammanando, When giving us seven translations you wrote: Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). N: I would suggest as an option for 'as a truth': in conformity with the truth. With respect, Nina. 46541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. nilovg Hi Tep, thank you very much. I would like to return to 17, unity, ekatta. See below. ---------- 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in the act of giving], (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha nimitta) [in concentration], (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of fall [in insight], (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). ----------- some remarks. I was wondering about the meaning of unity and looked up a few texts. ekatta: sign of unity. naanatta refers to the multipicity of objects which bring distraction. These two opposites also occur in some suttas. Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 15: Giving up: this would also be the giving up of defilements. -------- devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). Adhicitta: this refers to concentration connected with vipassanaa paññaa. Nina. 46542 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:44am Subject: cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Dan, Phil and friends, Cinta mayaa-paññaa. Cinta is sometimes translated as what is reasoned. But, as we shall see, it is far more than intellectual understanding. We go first to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 14 and Tiika: Relevant text Vis. 14: And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. ****** Pali: "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" ***** Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone else. ------ The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and other aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma is not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, beginning with the first stage of tender insight. ------- Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this is insight knowledge. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ----------- * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: . The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. -------- Tiika: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. _________ * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. ------- I also went to Diigha Nikaaya, Saangiiti Sutta (the Recital), the Threes where we also find cinta-maya-paññaa, sutta-maya-paññaa and bhaavana-maya-paññaaIts commentary (P.T.S. p. 1002) gives the same explanation. The Dispeller (II, p. 157) explains the Pali terms word by word. The word study, nijjhaana) is used, but this is not only book study. It is study with awareness of what appears. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion:<...and in particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakhanti (acceptance of study things)>. This reminds us that patience, khanti, is needed to study and consider again and again the five khandhas, that is, the dhammas that appear now. This reminds us of the patience and perseverance of the Bodhisatta while he developed understanding life after life. Also pariyatti is more then merely intellectual understanding. I quote from Sukin¹s post: ***** Nina. 46543 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, I'd like to re-post the Pali (cleaned up this time) and ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi translation for the paragraph from the Alagadduupama Sutta, MN22 #25.: Translation (with a few key Pali words added): ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self (attain), would there be what belongs to my self (attaniye)?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended (anupalabbhamaane) as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views (di.t.thi.t.thaana.m), namely, 'The self and the world are the same (so loko so attaa); after death I shall be permanent (nicco), everlasting (dhuvo), eternal (sassato), not subject to change (aviparo); I shall endure as long as eternity (sassatisma.m)' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching (baaladhammo)?" ...... Pali ======== 37. Attani vaa bhikkhave sati' attaniya.m me'ti assaati? 'Eva.m bhante.' Attaniye vaa bhikkhave sati 'attaa me'ti assaati? Eva.m bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane* yampida.m** di.t.thi.t.thaana.m 'so loko so attaa, so pecca bhavissaami nicco dhuvo sassato avipari.naamadhammo, sassatisama.m tatheva .thassaamii'ti, nanaaya bhikkhave kevalo paripuuro baaladhammoti? 'Ki.m hi no siyaa bhante, kevalo paripuuro*** baaladhammo'ti. ..... (Pali foot-notes- *Anupalabbhiyamaane, syaa. Sii **Yampi ta.m, machasa.m ***. Kevalo hi bhante paripuuro, machasa.m.) ..... S: Also, Howard, I pointed out your message to Jim A and he also saw Ven Dhammanando's comprehensive comments in the meantime. He wrote: Jim:>I thought his post (#46496) was excellent and provides a better explanation than I could have. There doesn't seem to be anything I can add.< Metta, Sarah ======== 46544 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: cinta-mayaa-paññaa onco111 Thanks for these clarifying passages, Nina. I read it a bit different from you, though: cintamayapañña is "pondering over things, that concerns ownship of deeds or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with 'materiality is impermanent' [etc.]", i.e. thinking about truths is cintamayapañña, while "all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development [bhavanamayapañña]." The cintamayapañña may well include the exercise of describing prior insight or even the intellectual, conceptual reflection on recently experienced moments of bhavanamayapañña. However, there is a sharp distinction between the original bhavanamayapañña (e.g., direct insight into 'materiality is impermanent') and the subsequent (or perhaps prior) cintamayapañña (e.g., conceptualization of 'materiality is impermanent'). If, as the subcommentary suggests, it's true that cintamayapañña occurs only with Sammåsambuddhas and Pacceka Buddhas, then the term is of little use. In fact, we'd best banish it from our discussions forthwith, because its definition, derivation, and description in the the primary (Vibh) and secondary (Dispeller) expositions so strongly suggest a sense of "thinking about realities" as opposed to "direct experience" (bhavanamayapañña) that if we were to use it in the extremely limited sense of applying only to Buddhas, it would be horribly confusing and potentially misleading. On the other hand, if we were to use it in the sense ("thinking about" rather than "insighting"), we'd be at odds to the subcommentary to Visuddhimagga. Then again, definitions of Pali words are not constant and depend strongly on context. The reflecting knowledge of Buddhas is cintamayapañña as is the reflecting knowledge of everyday worldlings. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Dan, Phil and friends, > > Cinta mayaa-paññaa. > Cinta is sometimes translated as what is reasoned. But, as we shall see, it > is far more than intellectual understanding. > > We go first to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 14 and Tiika: > > Relevant text Vis. 14: > And this is said: 'Herein, what is > understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work > invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any > preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering > over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in > conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the > axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... > formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires > without hearing it from another--that is called understanding > consisting in what is reasoned. ' > (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from > another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt > (heard). > 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is > understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). > So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what > is heard, and in development. > ****** > > Pali: "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? > "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu > yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa > saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. > sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m > khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m > parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa > pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa > pa~n~naa. > "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" > > ***** > Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding > regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller > of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). > This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the > benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. > Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone > else. > ------ > The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and other > aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma is > not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, > beginning with the first stage of tender insight. > ------- > Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of > ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². > As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this is > insight knowledge. > That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the > penetration of the truth. > Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is > impermanent, or... and so on. > Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and > non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. > What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. > The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus > described above *. > Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. > For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of > work and so on, which were explained above.** > Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to > beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, > namely nibbana. > ----------- > * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of > such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² > ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity>. > The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for > people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, > etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in > behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: > understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. > -------- > Tiika: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is > acceptance (khanti). > It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is > understanding. It observes, it is consideration. > And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on > incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of > them. > As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means > that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words > of instruction. > The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting > of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). > But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. > And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds > of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. > The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who > have fulfilled the perfections. > As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all > that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done > by someone else, > or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, > all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. > As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of > someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. > Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding > consisting of development. > _________ > * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. > ------- > I also went to Diigha Nikaaya, Saangiiti Sutta (the Recital), the Threes > where we also find cinta-maya-paññaa, sutta-maya-paññaa and > bhaavana-maya-paññaaIts commentary (P.T.S. p. 1002) gives the same > explanation. The Dispeller (II, p. 157) explains the Pali terms word by > word. > The word study, nijjhaana) is used, but this is not only book study. It is > study with awareness of what appears. > We read in the Dispeller of Delusion:<...and in particular, the things > (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again > and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept > (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakhanti > (acceptance of study things)>. > > This reminds us that patience, khanti, is needed to study and consider again > and again the five khandhas, that is, the dhammas that appear now. This > reminds us of the patience and perseverance of the Bodhisatta while he > developed understanding life after life. > Also pariyatti is more then merely intellectual understanding. I quote from > Sukin¹s post: > > understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows > that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. > > The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more > and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can > reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through > experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied > and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other > time, place or activity.> > > ***** > Nina. 46545 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? Metta, Dan 46546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Dan, yes, it is not all that easy. Just a short remark before I close off my email for a few days. The emphasis seems to be on cinta-maya-pañña as a contrast from sutta-maya-paññaa. The latter is understanding after having heard it from someone else. I learn from this text that cintamayapañña can include insight. Firstly, I am very impressed by what is said (also in the Co to the Sangitisutta) about the beginning insight of the Bodhisatta. < in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... >> formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires >> without hearing it from another--that is called understanding >> consisting in what is reasoned. ' > The word reasoned is used but this suggests too much an intellectual flavour. In conformity with truth: saccanuloma. I remember Ven. Dhammanando's translation of a passage about Bodhisatta Jotipala, who could reach sankhaarupekkhaa, equanimity about formations. This is insight. Rupa anicca, easy to say, but this was not merely intellectual understanding. But cinta maya pañña is paññaa. Now I also understand more Kh Sujin's remarks. To repeat: tender insight is called cinta-maya paññaa, and people say: it is just thinking. Indeed, when reading the Visuddhimagga about the stages of insight we may believe that it deals with intellectual understanding. But taruna vipassana, tender insight, is insight, not thinking. She reminded us, as I said, that paññaa is not yet advanced and in between there is still thinking about realities. She also said that only when one has reached the first stage of insight will there be understanding of ownership of deeds. It has to do with insight. Before that we do not know vipakacitta as nama. To conclude, I think, that knowing more about cinta-maya paññaa can help us to have more understanding about the development of insight. Nina. op 11-06-2005 19:14 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > I read it a bit different from you, though: cintamayapañña > is "pondering over things, that concerns ownship of deeds or is in > conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform > with 'materiality is impermanent' [etc.]", i.e. thinking about truths > is cintamayapañña, while "all understanding in anyone who has > attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development > [bhavanamayapañña]." 46547 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa, Sarah and James - This kind of quiz aims at encouraging us to search for one sutta that best satisfies the given criteria <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry">. I believe that there are several suttas that meet the criteria and would like to find out what other DSG members consider as their best choice. So Lisa, you're right that you can't fail the test. Sarah asked, "Tep, what's yours?". So I tell you what my answer is. The First Discourse (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, SN LVI.11) contains the gist of the Buddha's Teachings, i.e. the Middle Path Principle and the Four Noble Truths, and it is enough for Stream-entry (because the Ven. Kondañña got his Stream-entry after listening with full understanding to the first discourse). I am positive that full understanding (parinnaya) of the Four Nobel Truths is enough for the elimination of the first three fetters (samyojana), because of the confirmation by Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2) : "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. ... ... He attends appropriately, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress'. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." However, the First Discourse does not give me enough detail to practice for my Stream-entry. The detail I need is found in MN 9, Samma-ditthi Sutta, a discourse by the Great Arahant Sariputta. Therefore, MN 9 is my answer to the quiz question. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > ====== > > Dear Tep, > > I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! > > II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m > > (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. > > One one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and finally > settles down. > > With Metta, > Lisa 46548 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I can understand the first part of your message, but I am not quite sure what the second half meant to say. Nina: I found this interesting: Giving up: this would also be the giving up of defilements. -------- devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). Adhicitta: this refers to concentration connected with vipassanaa paññaa. Tep: Pali Text Society: Caga = to give up, (a) abandoning, giving up, renunciation (b) liberality, generosity. Anuyutta [pp. of anuyunjati] applying oneself to, dealing with, practising, given to, intent upon. Adhicitta [adhi + citta] "higher thought", meditation, contemplation, usually in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. Pali Text Society: Samadhi 1. concentration; a concentrated, self-- collected, intent state of mind and meditation, which, concomitant with right living, is a necessary condition to the attainment of higher wisdom and emancipation. Vipassana-nana = ability or method of attaining insight. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > thank you very much. > I would like to return to 17, unity, ekatta. See below. > ---------- > 16. What are these unities(ekatta)? They are: > > (7) the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift [in > the > act of giving], > (8) the unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity (samatha > nimitta) [in concentration], > (9) the unity consisting in establishing the characteristic(lakkhana) of > fall > [in insight], > (10) the unity consisting in establishing cessation(nirodha) [in the path]. > > 17. the unity consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift > belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, pariccaaga). The unity > consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those > devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta). The unity > consisting in establishing the characteristic of fall (vaya lakkhana) > belongs to those practising insight(vipassaka). The unity consisting in > establishing cessation belongs to Noble Persons (ariya puggala). > ----------- > some remarks. I was wondering about the meaning of unity and looked up a few texts. > ekatta: sign of unity. > naanatta refers to the multipicity of objects which bring distraction. > These two opposites also occur in some suttas. > Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 15: gross because it is distracted by the multiplicity of objects; the feelings of one possessed of attainment is subtle cince it takes place only in the sign of unity(ekatta nimitta). > Footnote of Co: Because the sign of earth kasina, etc., has a unitary nature > (ekabhaava). > And the footnote on p. 357 refers to a well concentrated mind with the hindrances suppressed. > It is free from the disturbances caused by having a variety of objects. > 46549 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:28pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina {Howard, Sarah; other members are welcome} - I appreciate your valuable discussion with me. N: Khandha or (paramattha) dhamma is not different from daily life. Nama and rupa apearing through six doors, is that scaring for beginners? T: Not at all, if it is left at that. But when a beginner is told that he will have to know all rupas and namas, otherwise he cannot discern their arising and falling away and will result in "great confusion", that is scarry. Because there are 5 pasada rupas, 16 sukhuma rupas, 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas (total 162) to be learned. That's like telling a young juggling student that he will have to know how to juggle 162 objects, otherwise he will not be allowed to perform in the circus. ------------------------------------- N: It depends on the student's interest how many details he wants to know. But one should not forget that dhammas are taught with the aim to penetrate their characteristics when they appear. T: I am not denying Paramattha-dhamma principles or the Abhidahmma at all, but I'd rather prefer using them optimally (wisely) with the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas. An example of unwise using of the Paramattha-dhamma is seen in the claiming that the breaths are a "concept" and the rejection of anapanasati bhavana as a wrong approach because of its use of breaths and activities for "controlling" results ( " .. all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath,...") ----------------------- N: sankhaarakkhandha is different from kaya-, vaci- and mano- sankhara. The latter is another notion, see Nyanatiloka's dictionnary. sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara has several meanings in different contexts. T: You're right, Nina. I admit my fault. ----------------------- > T : concepts and ultimate > realities are not defined as in the paramattha dhamma books. N: His whole teaching is about this: we may believe that there is a person (concept) but what is there in reality: fleeting elements. See the Elephant's Footprint Simile. The monk is scolded by someone. What is there? Only elements. There is ear-contact. He sees that there are only impersonal elements. T: Can you give me just one sutta that says that if the monks cannot tell the difference between pannatti and paramattha dhammas then they will be in "great confusion"? The truth of the matter is that I have not seen the term 'pannatti' being used by the Buddha in any suttas. The seeing of impersonal 'dhatus' and 'khandhas' is mainly for the purpose of detachment and letting go because only 'anatta' is seen, it has nothing to do with "concept" as promoted by paramattha- dhamma/Abhidhamma scholars. -------------------- N: But the main thing is not seeing self in the body, feelings, citta, dhammas. This implies: knowing the difference between concept (self) and nama and rupa. T: If I am not mistaken, self (atta) was never defined by the Buddha as a "concept", because he did not define 'atta' from 'pannatti'. Please read the Anattalakkhana Sutta again. Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > > op 09-06-2005 02:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > ....>>N: Should there not be correct vision first of all of the difference > between > >> concept and paramattha dhamma? Otherwise there is great > > confusion. And then, when we have not yet understood what nama is > > and what rupa is, can their arising and falling away, one at a time be > > discerned? ... 46550 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? concepts and realities. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - Nina, I am wondering if you'd let me butt in with a few questions while Howard is still busy? N: I think that the Buddha emphasized knowing one dhamma at a time through one of the six doors. He also spoke about ayatanas: sensefields. Ayatana: meeting or association of sense object and doorway at one point so that the appropriate sense-cognition arises. When we really understand this, I believe that the difference between ultimate reality and concept becomes clearer. T: I don't thing there is a need to know concepts because any arising thoughts, as well as namas and rupas, are contemplated as anicca, seeing their drawbacks so that we can let go of them [There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside." AN IV. 41]. Also, when an external ayatana appears (being cognized) in the present moment we simply realize when it arises; and when it dissolves, it is realized as such. Then one day the impermanent characteristic becomes a lot clearer with our atapi-sampajanno- satima. With higher samatha skill (in establishing mindful awareness in the object of satipatthana) and vipassana skill (refined insight through the aniccanupassana executed with great exertion), we'll become less and less clinging to it -- i.e. being able to let go of rupas and namas. This is a simple approach as I see it. ----------------------------- N: Let us now take anatta. We gradually learn that visible object is only a dhamma, that seeing is only a dhamma. Only an element that arises already because of conditions, before we can do anything about it. Only a nama, only a rupa. This is the beginning of correct understanding of anatta. We are still holding on, and more detachment is needed to experience the falling away of dhammas. When we hold on we cannot see their falling away, their impermanence. T: How would you practically implement the above "ideas" in the present moment? Do you recite all that in every single moment, when you see an object/body, hear a sound, etc.? How would your cognizance know the arising/falling away of any rupa or any nama just in time? How do you quickly realize any one of the 162 ultimate realities (of rupa, citta and cetasika) in any given moment? If you don't have the answer to each of these questions, how many more births you'll have to go through before you may finally realize Nibbana? ------------------------------------- N: N: Defilements are conditioned namas, elements, mere dhammas and they should be seen as such, they should be objects of insight. There are there before we can blink our eyes. There are so fast, no time to do anything. T: This is a real war between us and the defilements. If you think they are too fast for us to "do anything", isn't that the same as having no strategies to deal with the enemy? How could we win the war? This is not unlike the Iraqi war that the Americans are trying to win. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > I just take out a few points of your mail. 46551 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Vipallasa - distortions of reality philofillet Hi all I read this passage this morning from Roots of good and Evil by Nanamoli Thera: "The truth of suffering is hidden by the four distortions of reality (vipallasa) the four great illusions of seeing permanence in the impermanent, happiness in what is truly suffering, selfhood in what is void of self and beauty in the unbeautiful. These distortions, poerwful universal manifestations of ignorance and delusion, shut out an understanding of the truth of suffering, and thereby obscure the other truths, too. The four may appear on any of three level: at the level of quite ordinary misperceptions (sanna- vipallasa), or as wrong ways of thinking (citta-vipallasa) or as expresssed in definite wrong ideas and theories (ditthi-vipallasa) Tenaciously held wrong views can forge the strongest chain fettering beings to pain-fraught samsara. If these views go as far as to deny the moral relevance of any action, they will lead in the enxt existence to a 'fixed destiny' of rebirth in a world of misery." Leaving aside the question of morality, I think there is such a strong risk of less obvious forms of "tenaciously held wrong views" and we who ply our wisdom on the internet had better be especially careful, I think. We have access to suttas, which we probably think we understand better than we actually do, and the nature of the internet prods us to speak out with our views. Healthy discourse can help us to see the errors in our views, but I think we also wear blinders a lot of the time. I am always ready to say that it is impossible for worldlings to try to behave like monks in a fruitful way, but I have no way of knowing that yet, so should take care in saying so. On the other hand, busy worldlings who want to try to behave like monks should be wary of being overconfident about results and might benefit from seeing vipallasa-ditthi at work in their views. I think we should always remember that we are worldlings (with a few venerable exceptions) with limited understanding and take care with respect to ditthi-vipallasa. Sorry for the inclusive "we" but if it doesn't apply to you, you will know so - unless vipallasa is twisting your mind, that is... Metta, Phil 46552 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, ------------------- AT: > I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no abiding knower. -------------------- Yes, direct knowledge of anything real (any paramattha dhamma) is something you and I can't expect to have a lot of- let alone remember. If it weren't for the Buddha we wouldn't even have the indirect knowledge that we have. But I was talking about something different: I was questioning whether we should try to design our lives around the precepts (any more than around rite and ritual). Take your cat Millie, for example: what is the best thing to do for her? In your case, the answer is clear, but for most people there would be a lot of soul searching; "Should we spend a lot of time and money (that we can't afford) on her; should we have her put down, or should we just let her die naturally (and painfully)? What would the Buddha tell us to do? Should we be guided by the precepts?" It's hard to avoid life-and-death decisions; it gets very complicated and I don't think we can know which way is best. So I think we should just follow the accepted patterns of behaviour that society has laid down for us. There are accepted ways for householders just as there are ways for monks. There are ways for pet-owning householders and there ways for householders who live like monks in concrete skyscrapers and don't even keep food in the house in case it attracts vermin. :-) I don't have much evidence to support what I am saying, but there was one brief discussion, which I vaguely remember - on one of the India (or Thailand) tapes - that is influencing me. (I think it might have been the same discussion in which the hypothetical bombardier was mentioned.) People were asking K Sujin, whether this or that conventional reality was right livelihood or wrong livelihood. She didn't seem interested in preferring one over the other and simply said something like, "Provided it's legal, you can do it." --------------------- AT: > But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. Are you saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both tainted by ignorance? ---------------------- Yes, that's more or less what I have been saying (in my confusion): Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing! :-) Ken H 46553 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Collapsible Co-Cessation ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What Causes the Conditioned End of All Suffering ? Or what is Dependent Co-Cessation ? Condensed: When this is absent, that too is nonexistent... When this ceases, that too fades away... In Detail: The fading away of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to cease. The fading away of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to cease. The fading away of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to cease. The fading away of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to cease. The fading away of The 6 Senses causes Contact to cease. The fading away of Contact causes Feeling to cease. The fading away of Feeling causes Craving to cease. The fading away of Craving causes Clinging to cease. The fading away of Clinging causes Becoming to cease. The fading away of Becoming causes Birth to cease. The fading away of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to cease. The fading away of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to cease... Such is the ceasing of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! This is called the Right Way ... This is Dependent Co-Cessation ! Source: Grouped Sayings on Causation. Nidana Samyutta Nikaya XII http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46554 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 Ken H I am still confused by what your point is! (-: My guess is that when you say: "Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing!" You mean that views form and are acted upon but should not be clung to. [You *can't* mean that we never know what we are doing because that is a denial of panna, isn't it?] A useful paraphrase or a slanderous placing of words into your mouth? Best wishes Andrew T 46555 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 0:38am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 219 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Buddha reminded people of the ill effects of akusala. Akusala kamma is capable of producing an unpleasant result in the form of rebirth or in the form of unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of our life. Through the doing of evil deeds one acquires a bad name and one loses one’s friends. Moreover, the person who commits evil is not calm when he faces death. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, the Fourth Fifty, Chapter XIX, §4, Fearless) that the bråhmin Jåùussoni said to the Buddha that he believed that everyone was afraid of death. The Buddha thereupon spoke to Jåùussoni about four kinds of people who are afraid of death and four who are not. We read that the Buddha said: * "… In this case, bråhmin, a certain one is not freed from passions, not freed from lusts, not freed from desire, affection, from thirst and fever, not freed from craving. Then a grievous sickness afflicts such an one. Thus afflicted by grievous sickness it occurs to him: Alas! The passions that I love will leave me, or I shall leave the passions that I love. Thereupon he grieves and wails, laments and beats the breast and falls into utter bewilderment. This one, bråhmin, being subject to death, is afraid, he falls a-trembling at the thought of death. Again, bråhmin, here a certain one who as regards body is not freed from lusts… is not freed from craving. Then a grievous sickness afflicts him. Thus afflicted it occurs to him: Alas! The body that I love will leave me, or I shall leave the body that I love. Thereupon he grieves… and falls into utter bewilderment. This one, bråhmin, being subject to death, is afraid, he falls a-trembling at the thought of death…" * The same is said about the person who has omitted good deeds and committed evil, and about the person who is full of doubts as to “true Dhamma”. The opposite is true of the people who do not have these vices. When a grievous sickness afflicts them they are not afraid of death. We make ourselves unhappy through unwholesome deeds, speech and thoughts, and then we have no peace of mind. Akusala is a mental disease and this is more grave than bodily disease. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46556 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and >exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or >contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > > Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture is called for. As regards whether the Buddha is suggesting that dhatus can or should be *chosen*, I think we should not rule out the possibility of reflection occurring at times other than times we might designate as 'dhatu reflection' time. >In order to encourage you to think let me ask you this: What is the >object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and >how would you develop mindfulness your way? > >HINT: The following Commentary is very useful for understanding >that "the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana]" is a meditation >through which the meditator obtains "quietude" (or samatha) through >mindfulness(sati), while insight is obtained by "clear comprehension" >(sampajanna). Therefore, you must have a well-defined object of sati >to begin with. By the way, Jon, do not mix up sati with satipatthana, >though. > >Comy. "In the passage beginning with 'ardent,' Right Exertion >[sammappadhana] is stated by energy [atapa]; the subject of >meditation proper in all circumstances [sabbatthika kammatthana] or >the means of protecting the subject of meditation [kammatthana >pariharana upaya], is stated by mindfulness and clear comprehension >[sati sampajanna]; or the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha >samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is >stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; >and the fruit of inner culture [bhavana phala] through the overcoming of >covetousness and grief [abhijjha domanassa vinaya]. [endquote] > > Thanks for quoting this passage from the commentary. As you know, I regard the commentary as highly authoritative, and as the best available source of elaboration on the Buddha's actual words. I agree with your observation that kayanupassana involves the development of samatha (as, in my view, does all mindfulness). But I do not see that as meaning that mundane samatha must be developed first (and separately) in order for the development of insight to begin. My understanding is that as insight is developed and is accumulated, so is the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment. (Sorry if this sounds stubborn ;-)) Below is another passage from the same commentary as your quoted passage. Please note that the expressions 'clearly comprehending' and 'mindful' are explained as meaning that the bhikkhu is 'endowed with' the respective qualities. This is similar to the explanation for 'exerting' etc. that we discussed in a recent post: a person in whom the quality of energy is present. You asked, 'What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, etc." case, and how would you develop mindfulness your way?' To answer the second part first, the primary conditions for the arising of mindfulness (apart from our past accumulations of mindfulness) are hearing the teachings explained in a way that is suitable for us, reflecting on what has been learnt and understood, and appreciating the importance of the development of insight as the only way of escape from samsara (i.e., having a sense of urgency). As regards the first part, the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa while walking, this would be something that is described in the section on the modes of deportment. Jon Sutta text: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; Comy: Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare." Later Sub-Comy: Mindfulness denotes concentration, too, here on account of the inclusion of mindfulness in the aggregate of concentration [samadhikkhandha]. 46557 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics philofillet Hi Dan I enjoy discussing this topic. As you say - it's so important. I mean, it's probably the most important think for us - understanding how understanding develops from the book and discussion to something deeper. We won't understand this fully by discussing, of course, but it might be a helpful condition. > You are absolutely right that we worldlings have not developed the > penetrating insight that characterizes the enlightened, and that we > rely on a framework of words and concepts before that depth of > insight can be reached. > > But we simply do not start with the words. > > When Dhamma falls on ears with zero understanding, it sounds absurd > and elicits stunned disbelief and dirisive laughter. For the words to > make any sense or seem the least bit attractive, there must already > be rudimentary understanding derived from experience. Ph: Ah, now I can remember that you said this when we discussed whether there is a conceptual path or not, something like that. You had a nice long exchange with Sarah. At that time, I would have disagreed with what you say above. I probably argued that the notion of reducing lust and anger and ginorance is attractive to anybody. But now I feel you're right. If we read the sutta in which the Buddha first taught the noble truths without any degree of understanding, we just think about suffering in human terms - stories about me, myself and I being torn away from things I love and put together with the unloved etc. It's just a story about people. If you talk about the deeper truth, that there are no people, only conditioned nama and rupa - yes, the dirisive laughter. The words then > help consolidate that understanding so that subsequent moments of > insight may penetrate deeper because moha doesn't rush in quite so > dramatically in the aftermath. That's well put. There will be moha, always, but the proliferation might not be as much of an onslaught. But I don't think the above means that we should hold back on sharing intellectual knowledge that we might have (well, someone like Kh Sujin has) in the fear that it will condition hungering for insight. It's true that the words will often fall on deaf ears, but it's just as futile to tell someone that they should wait to understand conditioned realities directly, through their characteristics, without telling what the characteristics are. That's what the Buddha did, in great detail. So I think Kh Sujin can share explicit teachings, even as she warns that the book knowledge is a far cry from direct knowledge. I guess I'm just repeating myself there. One danger of nose-in-book is that the mind so delights in > building conceptual elaborations (papañca) that when left to our own > devices, lobha leads us happily and obliviously into a vast thicket > of theory (brahmajala). [And there are many dangers besides this.] Ph: That's a good word to know. Brahmajala. Thicket of theory. I've heard of "thicket of views" before - same thing, I guess. > I definitely find that my nose is out of the book more often as a result of these discussions, hearing these talks. Of course, that's too intentional, usually. But it's happening, for what it's worth. My wife says I get spaced out, but at those times it's all thinking. Direct understanding would come and go so quickly that no one would know. (Including the knower, I guess - what do you think?) > > "Concepts about realities" - that's what we have for now, but we > > must have that first. > > I wonder...is it better to strive diligently to build conceptual > frameworks that we hope will one day, by chance, be good descriptions > of our understanding, or to keep the focus on reality by trying to > describe our current understanding and experience of reality? I think > Kh. Sujin is right to keep bringing us back to experience and > providing a check against our penchant for speculative elaborations. Yes, I'm appreciating her more and more. But she also has written books laying out the paramttha dhammas, as you know. She knows there's a time for reading, a time for conceptualizing. But she makes sure that we don't get comfortable with it, makes sure that we don't find ourselves exploiting it. I'm really feeling good about the balance she helps us towards. Very grateful to have come across these talks. As for the above, "buidling conceptual frameworks", I think there can be an appreciation of a theoretical teaching, a noting it, without clinging to building a framework. My studying is so random that there can't be anything like a framework. A hetu here, a rupa there, a lokuttara citta - whatever comes along in my reading. Very random and disorganized. There is the self at work at times trying to make things fit together, that's true. I see what you mean. Is that why you were insisting that there is no conceptual eightfold path? I can't remember the details of your discussion with Sarah. I know that since that time I have noted here that I never think about what constitutes the path factors. I feel that thinking about them doesn't seem help to condition them. I think possibly thinking about kusala in the hopes of having it will always be in vain, but that is not necessarily the case for akusala amd hopes to avoid it. I don't know why - haven't thought about it - but I think conceptualizing and reflecting intellectually on akusala cetasikas isn't as counter-productive as thinking about beautiful cetasikas. I guess because there is less lobha involved. Yes, there is lobha about wanting to understand them, but not the desire to have them, obviously. In the case of kusala there is lobha about wanting to understand them *and* wanting to have them. The desire to avoid akusala might be less self-interested than the desire to have kusala? I guess that depends on the individual's accumulations... > > > There is also a lot of talk about pariyati (spelling?) and what > > pariyati really is. Sarah makes an interesting point. When we are > > reading about subtle citta processes, into which we are incapable > > know to have direct insight, the pariyati involved is not the long > > list of cittas in the process, but the doubt or frustration or > > whatever the reality is that arises when we read about difficult > and > > fornow-impenetrable realities. Interesting idea. > > She's right, and I'm glad to hear it. Yes....but not completely, because soon afterwards Kh Sujin said that it can be understood that the whole subtle process citta is anatta, and that is also pariyati. Obviously, that's just understanding at a far more conceptual level than what Sarah was talking about. So different degrees of getting one's nose out of a book to reflect on realities. By the way, thanks for your (and Nina's) feedback re cintamaya (sp?) panna, which is obviously related to that. You asked our new friend from India about the difference between insight and reflection. Obviously that's all related to what we're talking about here. > > > Anyways, I still feel that it is leading to a muddle to think > > about understanding realities directly before understanding them > > intellectually. > > When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- > coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual > understanding", but the reality is "moha". Ph: There is almost nothing but moha all day long. The world is created by it and is burning with it through the six doorways. If we let that stop us, we would never open a book of suttas. There is a real danger of being too confident about one's ability to benefit from thinking about suttas, but not doing so would be worse, I think. And if we have a good friend like Kh Sujin to warn us of the shortcomings of trying to think our way to enlightenment, we can open books with more confidence, in a more sober way. Do you think we could follow the path fruitfully without reading suttas with out shallow degree of understanding and reflecting on them, for what it's worth? > > > And subtly disrespectful to the Buddha, who spent > > most of his life laying out his teaching in conceptual form (words) > > to lead us toward direct understanding. > > My goodness, Phil! You seem to have acquired a bit of an edge in the > months I've been away... Ph: Dan, I've been getting in touch with my inner schoolyard bully. Seriously, I guess I have the beginner's awe at the depth of the Buddha's wisdom. Well, not only beginner's have that, but beginners will find it manifested in the books rather than understanding realities, directly, so we lean on suttas and find a lot of life- changing wisdom in them. And it is there, for sure, when one is dealing with issues of morality, of akusala kamma of the degree of transgression. Without guidance from suttas there would be more transgressions arising through Phil, I sense. Crude stuff. I've meant so many people who have never > heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper insight > into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) > than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the > technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; Ph: This is an obvious question, but how did you know this without their expressing themselves in Dhamma terms, conceptual terms? >> "The more we read, the more we understand anatta" is not an > affirmation that intellectual understanding must precede direct > knowing. It could mean, "the more we read, the more we > [intellectually] understand anatta", or "the more we read, the more > our understanding of anatta is solidified," or "the more we read, the > more our false notions of anatta are shattered" or "the more we read, > the more we are able to see how our rudimentary direct understanding > of anatta fits into the Buddha's conceptual scheme", or... Ph: Hmmm....I guess so. I see what you're warning about, and I appreciate it. >> In Bh Bodhi's > > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma I found this one line that was > > helpful: "It is experienced as tangible pressure." So I think Kh > > Sujin could have said that, and moved on. This little bit of > > conceptual description could have planted a seed of later, deeper > > understanding. Or it could have planted a seed of clinging, of > > hungering for sati? Less likely, I think - we know better than that > > pretty early on, don't we? > > Or it could have planted a seed of contentment: "Ah, thanks. Now I > understand motion." Or it could be that the conceptual > understanding "experienced as tangible pressure" is meaningless > unless it has been derived from experience. Even worse than > meaningless, though, it might well plant a seed of hungering for sati. Ph: It might, but I think you're underestimating the effect of listening to Kh Sujin and the talks every day. Confidence based on conceptual understanding is always being gently torn down, again and again. That accumulates. But, again, I see what you're getting at. Another friend who encourages patience is appreciated. Metta, Phil 46558 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard I am encouraged that we have agreed that the arising of a moment of kusala need not necessarily be immediately preceded by moments of 'conscious' reflection or anything in the nature of 'volitional action'. I believe that what we have agreed is that the arising of a moment of kusala is conditioned by previous instances of kusala, but that those previous instances may have occurred some time before the arising of the spontaneous kusala moment. Now as I see it, the important thing to keep in mind is that these are previous *instances of kusala*, rather than that they are 'volitional activity' forming part of a general 'cultivational process'. So perhaps it would be better to just leave it at that. After all, the term 'volitional activity' is not limited to kusala actions but includes and akusala actions too. 'Kusala volitional activity' would be better, but then there is also kusala that arises other than as part of 'volitional activity', and that should not be excluded. Any thoughts? Just a brief comment on a particular comment you made in your response: ***************************** Jon: That is to say, that kusala can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation or prompting (internal or external). We have all experienced this in our lives. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly. There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetana is the reality underlying conventional volition. ****************************** I like the way you put this: "Spontaneously only in the sense of not having just been willed. But not spontaneously in the sense of causelessly." That was exactly what I was trying to convey. You went on to say: "There is kamma and kamma vipaka. Kamma is cetana, and cetana is the reality." To my understanding, the kusala consciousness that arises spontaneously is not vipaka, but in fact is itself kamma (kamma being the cetana that arises with kusala and akusala consciousness). So the conditioning relationship existing between the previous kusala states and the spontaneously arising kusala is not one of kamma/vipaka. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 6/5/05 5:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@n... writes: > Hi Howard > > The question we were discussing, in the post before your reply below, > was whether dhammas are apparent other than at moments of insight. I'd > like to follow that along a little further, because I think it's a very > important issue. > > In an earlier post you had said: > "But they're not fully hidden, Jon. Aren't you aware of sights, sounds, > tastes, smells, hardness, warmth etc., all rupas, and craving, aversion, > pleasant feeling, etc., all namas? And when hardness, for example, > arises, can you not pay particular attention?" > > Yes, I can of course pay attention to sights, sounds or hardness > appearing now. But the question is whether that is the same as what is > referred to in the texts as awareness of the presently arising visible > data, audible data or tangible data, or as the direct experience of > those dhammas. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly there is a difference between awareness of dhammas, which > occurs al the time, and awareness with insight/clear comprehension. If it is that > distinction you are making, then we agree. > ------------------------------------------- ... 46559 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:39am Subject: Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - You were so kind to defend me against James' attack. But it is normal when James attacks someone; the probability of that event is about 80% of the time. :-)). Your quiz answer, the Migajaala Sutta, is worth pondering about. You gave a very good summary with reasons why it was selected. S: I think it contains everything we need to hear in essence --the dhammas to be known, the cause of bondage, the way out, the meaning of living alone, anatta and especially the eradication of wrong views about times and places for practice. Also we crave for the perfect partner, but the partner is craving which has to be abandoned.....learning to live alone with visbible objects, sounds and so on. I find it incredibly uplifting. T: It is refreshing to see "living alone" (implying viveka), "eradication of wrong views" and ,importantly, "practice" in your answer. S: When I first read these lines (in another translation), I was living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka. They helped me realise I could return to England and help my family in difficulties, get a job and so on, without any 'sacrifice' of my 'practice'. T: Migajala Sutta succinctly emphasizes abandoning tanha as the meaning of "living alone". But your interpretation of this sutta to justify foregoing of your seclusion and returning to family life was caused by cravings (for household joys), rather than the opposite. Why didn't all monks who listened to this sutta forego their monkhood and returned to their household lives? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (& Tep), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Tep, > > > > Tep: So all good Buddhists cannot let that happen -- it is our > > responsibility to speak up when we think we know the right meaning. > > > > James: I did speak up…I wrote two posts about the two meanings of > > jhana and how some in this group use this fact to justify a warped > > view of the dhamma. Weren't you paying attention? > ... > S: I understood Tep to just be encouraging friends like you and anyone > else to keep questioning and challenging anything that seems wrong > anytime. It makes for healthy discussions. > .... (snipped) > Tep, I think I'd say that the Migajaala Sutta, which I quoted from the > other day, is the sutta which consistently for 30 years has had and > continues to have most impact on me and I think meets your criteria. I'm > moved just by the thought of it. > : > > SN35:63. > > "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." > 46560 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Who is Strong? philofillet Hi Howard, Azita and all... Howard: > A snippet I just caught from the lovely film "Yentl": > > > > "Who is strong?" > > "He who controls his passions" > > > > This is good Dhamma from another tradition, a teaching I must > take to > > heart. Ph: This really caught my attention. I think it came at a time when I was struggling with immoral temptations, and had been strengthened in a clear way by reading a sutta (SN 56.7) which is as clear and sensible as the passage above. "Passions" implies akusala at the level of transgressions, in my opinion, though I don't know if that's how you tkae it. And yes, I think we can be guided away from the danger of transgressions by the power of the Buddha's teaching. No guaranteees of safety, of course - conditions are powerful and unpredicatble - but there is power in the Buddha's teaching that steers us away from behaving like degenerates. I used to think that self could be employed in this area, but now I think it's something to do with the Buddha's word being a kind of decisive support factor for the non-arising of transgressions, or something like that. Just a formative notion that I'm ready to let go of. But if "passions" is understood to be the daily little incidents of dosa and lobha that come and go but accumulate, there is no way the control can be used in such an active voice. I think of the "a tamed mind brings happiness" line in the Dhammapada - it doesn't say "he who tames his mind will be happy" and I think that there is a good reason that it doesn't. A well-tamed mind and control over the arising of lobha and dosa cannot happen by will power. But if you're talking about moral transgressions, Howard - really nasty stuff that goes on in dark and dank corners of Long Island - I'm?@with you. (haha) Azita: > at this point in 'my' stream of consciousness, I'm for letting the > passions flow - not that 'I' can stop them - and seeing if any > awareness can arise in the midst of all the chaos :-) Ph: As I said above, I'm feeling again- as I did last year around this time - that there is wisdom in differentiating between crude defilements of the level of transgression of the precepts and all the other less damning defilements that accumulates. Wise control can arise and prevent us from sleeping with other men's wives, for example, or other women's husbands, or both, if that is one's cup of tea. Or beating them up, or stealing their watches while they're off in the loo, or whatever. I'm so grateful to have come across Kh Sujin and her wise patience, but patience should not apply in the case of transgressions. We should think about what we can do to prevent them, I think - but I may feel differently about that tomorrow! Howard, I was also interested in the other passage, from Mel Brooks, about the release from a long life of hellish imprisonment because of a single moment of good behaviour. I can certainly see while you think Mel was lurking. I don't know if there is any way that a moment of understanding a reality will erase the transgressions I have committed that may very well doom me to hell. Don't think about it. No way to know. I doubt there is, if I think about it, but I don't think about it. The best think to do is press ahead patiently and develop understanding, without dwelling on the past. I'm reading more into that passage than you intended, probably, but it struck a chord with me, for some reason. Metta, Phil 46561 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:34am Subject: Rhetorical question re concepts and realities philofillet Hi all A couple of rhetorical questions popped into my head today that I thought might help people who deny that the Buddha taaght about the difference between concepts and realities. Did the Buddha have penetrative insight? If yes, what did his insight penetrate? If no, what kind of insight did he have? Does knowing that the terms pannati and paramattha dhammas are not used in the suttas in any way change your answer to the questions above? I don't know if these rhetorical questions are of any use. No need to answer them, but might possibly be of value to reflect on them. Metta, Phil 46562 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only philofillet Hi Tep, and all These days I really dig Rahula Samyutta SN 18:1-10 (actually 10 very short suttas strung together, I guess.) The Buddha sits his son Rahula down and says "Son, it's time you and me had a talk about realities. You see, son, there are some folks think concepts are real, see. But what I want you to do is listen and tell me, boy - is the eye permanent or impermanent? Yup, that's right son. Impermanent." And so on through 9 other categories of elements. Sorry for the silliness above, but there is something very conceptually powerful about the notion of the Buddha sitting down with his son to teach him Dhamma. And then, that story falls away, and the Buddah and his son are gone and we're down to elements, realities. Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where the task ahead lies. Of course there are many suttas about which one could say the same thing. These days, in the morning, I tend to reflect on the fire sutta - "the eye (and everything else) is burning" with greed, hate and delusion - and the anatta sutta. Reeflecting on these two suttas leaves me with a pretty clear (but still very shallow) intellectual understanding that the world (ie my mind) is burning with greed, hate and ignorance but there's nothing I can do about it by will power. (The anatta sutta makes that crystal clear to me - it says very explicitly that there is no way to have khandas, including volitional formations, the way we would like to have them.) Reading these suttas is quite sobering. Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Well, duh, no kidding. Metta, Phil 46563 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:28am Subject: Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Sarah), Tep: You were so kind to defend me against James' attack. But it is normal when James attacks someone; the probability of that event is about 80% of the time. :-)). James: LOL! I didn't attack you- I just called you on the same passive-aggressive approach you are using in this post. You may try to couch this aggression of yours as `joking', but I know better (Sarah is just trying to keep the peace). But it won't do much good to talk to you rationally (as I tried to do) because currently you are on some kind of ego-power trip. Just get back to the dhamma and knock it off with the personal comments, thanks. James 46564 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil and all - Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where the task ahead lies. Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the Buddha's, then what else do you have as a better alternative? I wonder how you could understand "where the task ahead lies" if you didn't grasp the meanings of "impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta". I think you may agree with me that to grasp the meanings of the three characteristics from the sutta reading is not the same as to attain full understanding (parinna) of them. ----------------- [After reviewing the Fire Sutta.. ] Phil: Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Respectfully, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, and all > > > These days I really dig Rahula Samyutta SN 18:1-10 (actually 10 > very short suttas strung together, I guess.) The Buddha sits his son > Rahula down and says "Son, it's time you and me had a talk about > realities. You see, son, there are some folks think concepts are > real, see. But what I want you to do is listen and tell me, boy - is > the eye permanent or impermanent? Yup, that's right son. > Impermanent." And so on through 9 other categories of elements. > > Sorry for the silliness above, but there is something very > conceptually powerful about the notion of the Buddha sitting down > with his son to teach him Dhamma. And then, that story falls away, > and the Buddah and his son are gone and we're down to elements, > realities. Are we able to answer the Buddha's questions, are we > able to understand the impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all > the realities/elements listed in the sutta? Of course we're not. > It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this sutta where > the task ahead lies. Of course there are many suttas about which one > could say the same thing. > > These days, in the morning, I tend to reflect on the fire sutta - > "the eye (and everything else) is burning" with greed, hate and > delusion - and the anatta sutta. Reeflecting on these two suttas > leaves me with a pretty clear (but still very shallow) intellectual > understanding that the world (ie my mind) is burning with greed, > hate and ignorance but there's nothing I can do about it by will > power. (The anatta sutta makes that crystal clear to me - it says > very explicitly that there is no way to have khandas, including > volitional formations, the way we would like to have them.) Reading > these suttas is quite sobering. Then I sit down with the Buddha and > begin going through the Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever > so shallow degree I am capable of) answer the Buddha's questions > about the ayutanas, about the dhatus, about the great elements, > about the khandas, about all the realities laid out for > consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can get into Rahula > Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. Well, duh, no > kidding. > > Metta, > Phil 46565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Dan D. wrote: >Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's >dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding >of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours >using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic >of reality. > Are you saying that people who have not heard the teachings could develop a deep understanding of anatta as a characteristic of reality? I'd be interested to know why you would see it that way. > I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient >depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still >POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what >99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. > I think this comparison raises quite different issues. One could probably make a similar comment about the core concepts of any religion ;-)) Jon 46566 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Dear Bhante (and Tep) - Thank you so much for this detailed response. I agree with you about Horner for sure and pretty much for Law's translation as well. I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" or "is not found" or "does not obtain". With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/9/05 11:27:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Dear Howard & Tep, Howard: > I suspect that the phrase "in truth and reality" is actually > there in the Pali, but, of course, I don't know that as a > fact. It would be important to know it. Here is the Pali: attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane (MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) And seven translations: ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." Robert Eddison: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." Mahamakut Tipi.taka: "...meua attaa lae borikhaan neuang duai attaa bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When a person cannot take hold of attaa or the appurtenances connected with attaa as a truth and as a reality] Mahachulalongkorn Tipi.taka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwaam pen khong jing, doey khwaam pen khong thae..." [When both self and things connected with self cannot be apprehended as a truth and as a reality] (Khun Tep, I should be interested to know if you agree with how I have rendered these Thai translations. In particular, do you think "as a truth" properly conveys "doey khwaam pen khong jing", or would "truly" be better? Or something else?). Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law seem to me to be completely off the map, while the remaining five seem more or less defensible as far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamaane"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined -- or at least influenced -- by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamaane. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. Phew! Just to make things a little more complicated, it also has the negative particle na ('not') placed at the front, which then changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one example of the verb that you will probably be familiar with; it's found in every Indian logic textbook: va~njhaaya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (I think western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self *does* exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." ~Naa.namoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self *does* obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." I know this is what you were asking about in your post, but for me the crux of the matter is the word anupalabbhamaane. The difference between my old rendering and the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamaane, whereas N & B make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the .tiikaa to this sutta. I should be interested to hear Suan's comments on "saccato thetato" if he is reading this. Best wishes, Dhammanando /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46567 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:55pm Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Andrew T, Thanks for persevering. ------------------------------- AT: > I am still confused by what your point is! --------------------------------- So am I. I have been trying to argue that it is possible to live ethically without being a complete hermit. But that's a bit rich coming from me, considering I have always been the most hermit-like person I know. I have made a lot of mistakes in trying to avoid unethical means of livelihood because there aren't any. The popular saying, 'Nice guys finish last,' is, unfortunately, true. -------------------------------- AT: > My guess is that when you say: "Learn and consider the Dhamma, but don't presume to make day to day decisions by it - because you don't really know what you're doing!" You mean that views form and are acted upon but should not be clung to. ---------------------------------- I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in the conventional sense. -------------------------------------- AT: > [You *can't* mean that we never know what we are doing because that is a denial of panna, isn't it?] -------------------------------------- Is that the sort of thing panna knows? Panna can know whether a presently arisen dhamma is kusala or akusala, but that is quite different from knowing how much money to spend on an ancient cat; or whether to produce and sell products in a society already destroyed by over-consumption. --------------------------------- AT: > A useful paraphrase or a slanderous placing of words into your mouth? --------------------------------- A useful paraphrase. But is it wrong? Ken H 46568 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran jonoabb Hi KenH and Andrew kenhowardau wrote: >I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the >ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in >the conventional sense. > > I think you're arguing against acting on a partial but incomplete understanding of certain aspects of the teaching, like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first precept. Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your reference to the house full of termites? Jon 46569 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only philofillet Hi Tep Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your participation here. You keep me thinking, and you motivate very helpful posts from Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and others in response to your posts. > Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer the > Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, > suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in the sutta? > Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I read this > sutta where the task ahead lies. > > Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the Buddha's, > then what else do you have as a better alternative? Ph: I didn't say I can't understand the words. I can understand the words. But and I can read the questions and dutifully answer, "yes, this and that are impermanent" etc. But it is all thinking. In the sutta, we find "seeing thus, the noble instructed disciple feels revulsion" etc. This is what I have come to call Ariyan revulsion, the response of one who has already reached the first stage of enlightenment. So when I read this wonderful sutta I feel deep awe at the wisdom of enlightened ones, but I know I don't have it and can't have it by intending to. That would be silly. But as I said in a thread to Howard, I do believe the Buddha's words can have a suibstantial impact in our lives when it comes to reducing - dramatically - the likelihood of moral transgressions. (Can't do it compeletely - only the soptapanna is beyond risk of moral transgressions.) So I will continue to read suttas with that aspiration in mind. As for subtler understanding, I can only patiently stay open to Dhamma, with patience. I know you and others believe a more intentional approach to developing direct understanding is possible. I cannot say for sure it isn't - that would be foolish. I wonder how you > could understand "where the task ahead lies" if you didn't grasp the > meanings of "impermanence, suffering and anattaness of all the > realities/elements listed in the sutta". Ph: Of course I can grasp them intellectually. And at times experiencing a clarification of my daily experience in the light of this intellectual understanding. These moments come and go beyond my control. There are either more of them than I think, or fewer of them than I think. They have conditioning power of some degree - I don't know how much. Just as reading suttas has conditioning power of some degree- I don't know how much. I will continue to read, listen and reflect, with as few expectations as possible. (Except for the previouisly mentionned desire to reduce the likelihood of moral transgressions.) Thich Nhat Hahn used the memorable metaphor of the Dhamma soaking in like soft rain into hard earth. Patience. We tend to be so thirsty for Dhamma, for understanding. As Kh Sujin said, as soon as we hear about satipatthana, we want to have it. And right there is the lobha, and it's all wrong. Patience. (I guess we can call that lobha chanda and see it in a wholesome light if we want to. I think we should be cautious there.) I think you may agree with me that > to grasp the meanings of the three characteristics from the sutta > reading is not the same as to attain full understanding (parinna) of them. Ph: Yes, not the same at all. I hope all newcomers to Buddhism who come across suttas through access to insight also understand that as soon as possible. > Phil: Then I sit down with the Buddha and begin going through the > Rahula Samyutta, beginning to ( to the ever so shallow degree I am > capable of) answer the Buddha's questions about the ayutanas, about > the dhatus, about the great elements, about the khandas, about all the > realities laid out for consideration by the Buddha. The deeper we can > get into Rahula Samyutta, the closer we are to the goal, I'd say. > > Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you > get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Ph: Read it and reflect on it whenever the opportunity arises in a natural, unforced way. Listen. Discuss. Turn to the Buddha's teaching for moral guidance in the area of moral transgressions that would make the patient approach described above less likely to arise. There is no other wise option for a busy married man living in the modern world, and in one of the most sensually stimulating cities in the modern world, bombarded constantly by sense impressions through six doors. I am not a monk and I think it would be foolish for me to pretend to be one. That may not be the case for you and others. Thanks again Tep. Keep up the great posts. I will be away from the list until next weekend so will not be able to respond until then. Metta, Phil 46570 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, all - > > > > Suppose someone sincerely asks you if you know one sutta that is neither too > >long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's > >Teachings enough for Stream-entry. What would be your answer and why? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Tep > > ====== > Dear Tep, > > I like these kinds of test, I can't fail! > II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m > (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi. > >(EDIT, I was in a hurry) When one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and >finally settles down and learns the factors of enlightenment, the jhanas and insight. > With Metta, > Lisa Okay I'm back and a little less fragmented on the writing side of my brain! Going from drawing to writing is freaky!!!! The Sutta begins with "I heard Thus." This sutta seems to be about the praise of Gotama and what a great teacher he is because of his well mannered disciples. Gotama's teaching skills and students are compared to other teachers and their students (of Gotama's time) who all seem to have many forms of attachment mainly with personal views. There is no gossip or back biting when Gotama teaches because it is understood by all that there is no I or self, me or mine to hold onto or defend and the sutta goes on to tell you just how this is done, step by step. I really like how the sutta goes over and over how Gotama praises his students and his students praise the teacher. There is no quibbling over who has better view or understanding because it seems that attachment to view of self has been let go of completely. Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? I do have a more intellectually inclined friend who is going to help me with this sutta because I do like it so much. We are both going to read it together and then share notes and insights. There are many passages that remind me of my own meditations especially with the colors. I've always seen colors blossom like flowers behind my closed eyes even when I didn't meditate. When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. This month of June has been very hectic, new job, new place to live and many things happening with our family, all good but very difficult to stay balanced even during great and very sweet times! There are so many things happening that I've worked very hard on for many yearts that are now bearing fruit and I really don't want to take it all to personal. I would like to look at all like this life stuff happening right now like a big garden and it's time to harvest and prepare what has been harvested correctly and also care for the garden for next years planting. it would be very nice to not fret and worry because there is really no me just lots of work to be done working the ground, weeding, planting, weeding, watering, harvesting and letting the ground lay fallow for the winter.... Time to rest and relax a bit I have no clue what's going to happen tomorrow so many interesting things have been happening lately plus being rested, eating right and reading a bit of Dhamma every day seem to really help... With metta, Lisa 46571 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 220 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a different person at different moments. In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala citta. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46572 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- lone_renunciant wrote: > But I think meeting > up with you guys would be cool. Real life interpersonal > communication does have its advantages over Internet chat lines or > study groups. ... S: Yes, advantages and disadvantages in both, I find. If we do come your way sometime, we won't need any entertaining btw -- we'll just be glad to meet you:). .... > P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). >The current picture is a very recent one, :) ... > > Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I > didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to > discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the > book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some > initial concerns out of the wahy? ... S: We can proceed anytime, anyway you like. Some long-term thread or series would be good, I think. However, you'd need to keep it going and do some of the donkey work, as I always have a lot of threads being 'juggled' in the air at anytime:). Any other initial concerns? I want to just pick up on one 'concern' you mentioned in another letter. You said, with regard to your r'ship with your father: A:"It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life is short for all of us)." S: This is very honest. We all have lots of fear and it's OK and normal. Slowly rectify the r'ship, a little more each day and it'll work out well, I'm sure. Your parents may never understand your interest in the Dhamma, but that doesn't matter at all -- one can learn to respect the other's path and they will respect yours when you live easily, skilfully and naturally with that path. You also mentioned: A: "If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of attachment." S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and other more common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we think attachment arises in. That would be a kind of wrong view in itself to think it's possible. At such moments there will be a strong clinging to 'me' without attachment, not realising that it's arisen already. Live your ordinary life, doing whatever you please and see that awareness can arise and be aware of any conditioned dhamma, Al. If we say there is not as much awareness as before and so on, again it shows the strong clinging to having more awareness, more good, more good results and so on. Who for? ME!! OK, end of my 'initial concerns':)). Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? Ch1 either way: The distinction between namas and rupas. Any questions, comments or confusion? When this is clear, the rest is all downhill imho. Metta, Sarah ======= 46573 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, I'm not so good at starting new threads over again, so I'll continue:) I thought you raised some good points for further reflection. .... --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: I'm taking 'concept' to be a word and a word is either a sound or > visible data on a page. ... S: I don't think that concept or pannati needs to be a word. A baby starts to have concepts or ideas about what is seen or heard long before there are any words. It learns to recognise and associate certain sounds, tastes and colours from the start. ... <..> >That's why it's problematical to equate > 'conceptual' and 'conventional'. But even 'conventional' isn't a very > satisfactory concept. A convention is an agreement but the sense of a > whole isn't really an agreement. We can give a whole a name, like 'Hong > Kong', but that doesn't make that whole, or sense of a whole, a name. > Maybe instead of 'conventional' we could call this sense 'ordinary' or > 'common' or something like that (deluded?). ... S: Sammuti Sacca or vohaara sacca (conventional truths)can be said or thought with deluded or non-deluded cittas. What is commonly agreed, i.e. Hong Kong as the name of the place. The Buddha would use the same term as the deluded worldlings. ... <...> >S:To give a more > obvious example, there is the crash of thunder which wakes us up. > Instant aversion, I think. > ------------------------------------ > > Larry: Good example. I was just going on the logic that desire or > aversion arises with ignorance so whatever is perceived is misperceived. > Can desire or aversion arise without ignorance? > > --------------------------------------- S: No, when there's desire or aversion, there's always ignorance. There can is desire or aversion with ignorance in the sense door process as well as the mind door process. So even before there is any concept about thunder, when the noise is heard, there's instant aversion with ignorance unless there's awareness. .... <...> > S: Concepts don't have a 'true nature'...they are merely shadows of true > > natures. > ----------------------------- > > Larry: How do you know they are merely shadows of true natures? ... S: a)it says so in the texts:) and b) because when sati is aware of a reality such as sound or visible object, it's quite different from when there is an idea of sound or visible object or thunder. .... <...> > L: This is the delicate question of the middle way between eternalism > and annhilationism. One way to look at this is that impermanence, > continuity, and emptiness of a singular reality (asabhava) are three > aspects of reality. A vivid demonstration of this can be seen in simply > walking. ... S: I'd like to pick this one up a little more this time. Impermanence and anatta are characteristics of reality. I think it is the illusion of continuity (santati) that covers up the reality of impermanence. In other words, it seems that the realities are lasting because they 'continue' to arise and fall repeatedly in rapid succession like the cartoon film. I'm not sure where 'asabhava' came in here. The characterisitics are the sabhava of dhammas surely? .... > Larry: Isn't there some sutta where the Buddha says something like > 'don't say exists or not exists? .. S: If there is an idea of self, it makes no sense to say this Self exists or doesn't exist, because there's still a clinging to the idea of it. .... > The example of walking circles back to the first point (above) about > wholes. A person or walking are examples of wholes. In a sense they are > not 'really' objects of consciousness. ... S: They are objects of citta, but not objects of satipatthana. ... >Just as you can't actually > experience (see, feel, etc.) Hong Kong, in the same way you can't > actually experience a person or even experience walking. Yet, we do, > undeniably. ... S: Only 'in the mind', i.e only by conceptualising, with or without using words to do so. ... >The impermanence and continuity of realities are fashioned > into something without self-nature. For lack of a better word we call > this something a concept. It is possible to directly experience this > lack of self-nature. ... S: I think you are confusing Theravada sabhava (own nature) with attA (self. I assume you're referring to anatta or sunnata here? ... >Observe yourself walking or look at your face in > the mirror. If you look carefully you will see that there is nothing > there. That is what I mean by insight into 'concept'. ... S: When I look, there is visible object. It's not nothing. However, I agree that there's no self, no face, no mirror in the visible object. These are conceptualised, but there can never be insight into such conceptualisations, only into the visible object which appears. ... > > Apropos of our Vism. topic, ignorance, if, instead of seeing that there > is nothing there, you see that you can't see, maybe that is insight into > ignorance. If so, that places ignorance very close to wisdom: not seeing > or seeing not. ... S: :-/ .... > > I'm not 100% sure this stuff makes sense but if you want to continue > maybe we should start over. This thread is getting a little unwieldy. ... S: Apart from giving up on the last one, I was mostly following you, Larry:). I'm not sure if my comments make any more sense and I'll leave you with the same choices. Metta, Sarah ======= 46574 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:17pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Very nice post, Phil. Thanks. > At that time, I would have disagreed with what you say above. I > probably argued that the notion of reducing lust and anger and > ignorance is attractive to anybody. For my part, most of the time I am more interested in INCREASING lust and anger than eradicating them. But, then, I certainly find the NOTION of reducing lust and anger is indeed attractive -- just that my actions don't live up to my beliefs. That being said, I do hear people frequently talk favorably about the notion of increasing lust and anger, and judging by sales of viagra, porn, whiskey, and rancorous political fare, people seem pretty committed to increasing lust and anger. And me? I'm right with them -- well, not with them in the viagra, porn, and whiskey part, but with them in the doing of things that increase lobha/dosa. Despite my VIEW that reducing lust and anger are good things, I do quite a lot of things that increase them. > But now I feel you're right. If > we read the sutta in which the Buddha first taught the noble truths > without any degree of understanding, we just think about suffering > in human terms - stories about me, myself and I being torn away from > things I love and put together with the unloved etc. It's just a > story about people. If you talk about the deeper truth, that there > are no people, only conditioned nama and rupa - yes, the dirisive > laughter. Even the stories about people sound foolish. E.g., "The noble truth of suffering...even that chocolate milkshake you thought you were enjoying at lunch was really suffering," my Freshman religious studies teacher told us. She had a bit of a smirk on her face, and the class laughed and laughed. > I definitely find that my nose is out of the book more often as a > result of these discussions, hearing these talks. Of course, that's > too intentional, usually. But it's happening, for what it's worth. > My wife says I get spaced out, but at those times it's all thinking. I believe it was RobertK who told a wonderful story about meeting someone who was so proud of how much insight she had that she missed her plane and couldn't even recognize her husband. I'm sure I majorly mangled the details, but the point is, as you noted, that spaciness is not a sign of insight. > Direct understanding would come and go so quickly that no one would > know. (Including the knower, I guess - what do you think?) You are right that no "one" would know, but the knower (i.e., the mind with pañña) certainly knows. The knowing also leaves a mark, so subsequent minds have a sense of "memory" about the event. The mark entices subsequent minds to struggle to put words and a conceptual framework on the understanding. Here's where Buddha-dhamma and discussion can be so helpful -- putting tender direct understanding on firmer foundations that lay the groundwork for deeper understanding later. This consolidating is different from speculative theorizing about, say, nibbana or recalling past lives or details of the sequence of 17 cittas that make up such-and-such mental process. > Yes, I'm appreciating her more and more. But she also has written > books laying out the paramttha dhammas, as you know. She knows > there's a time for reading, a time for conceptualizing. Reading and talking are different. A good Dhamma friend like Kh. Sujin can skillfully tailor the words to the given situation. Text cannot. There is certainly a time and place for conceptualizing, but not for speculative theorizing. THAT kind of conceptualizing, of course, may well be insighted (as can any other akusala), but it doesn't play any special role beyond that of other akusala. > But she > makes sure that we don't get comfortable with it, makes sure that we > don't find ourselves exploiting it. I'm really feeling good about > the balance she helps us towards. Very grateful to have come across > these talks. Very glad to hear it. > As for the above, "buidling conceptual frameworks", I think there > can be an appreciation of a theoretical teaching, a noting it, > without clinging to building a framework. My studying is so random > that there can't be anything like a framework. A hetu here, a rupa > there, a lokuttara citta - whatever comes along in my reading. Very > random and disorganized. There is the self at work at times trying > to make things fit together, that's true. I see what you mean. > > Is that why you were insisting that there is no conceptual > eightfold path? Oh, there is a conceptual eightfold path all right, and there is the eightfold path of Right View, etc. -- and ne'er the twain shall meet. > I can't remember the details of your discussion with > Sarah. I know that since that time I have noted here that I never > think about what constitutes the path factors. I feel that thinking > about them doesn't seem help to condition them. No, I don't think it helps condition their arising, but it can help sañña to more powerfully mark them when they do arise, i.e., they may well cut a little deeper next time. > I think possibly > thinking about kusala in the hopes of having it will always be in > vain but that is not necessarily the case for akusala and hopes to > avoid it. I don't know why - haven't thought about it - but I think > conceptualizing and reflecting intellectually on akusala cetasikas > isn't as counter-productive as thinking about beautiful cetasikas. I > guess because there is less lobha involved. Yes, there is lobha > about wanting to understand them, but not the desire to have them, > obviously. In the case of kusala there is lobha about wanting to > understand them *and* wanting to have them. The desire to avoid > akusala might be less self-interested than the desire to have > kusala? I guess that depends on the individual's accumulations... We are powerless to do ANYTHING to cause or condition kusala or akusala. Whenever there is a thought or sense of "I" or "me" or "mine", the citta is akusala, and "we" can do nothing to shake the thought and sense of "I" or "me" or "mine". When pañña arises, the thought or sense of "I" or "me" or "mine" recedes momentarily as kusala citta arises. > > When there is no understanding, there is only moha. You can sugar- > > coat it all you want as "conceptual right view" or "intellectual > > understanding", but the reality is "moha". > > Ph: There is almost nothing but moha all day long. The world is > created by it and is burning with it through the six doorways. If we > let that stop us, we would never open a book of suttas. Nothing can stop us from considering dhamma EXCEPT moha. There is ALMOST nothing but moha all day long, but the few moments of amoha are precious, marked by sañña, and motivate us to study more dhamma. > Do you think we could follow the path fruitfully without reading > suttas with out shallow degree of understanding and reflecting on > them, for what it's worth? Understanding begets thinking about Dhamma. Who can prevent an understanding mind from considering Dhamma more fully? Sutta reading may at times be a fruit of understanding. Or sometimes a fruit of lobha. Or of dosa. Is there a craving for a better intellectual grasp of this doctrine or that doctrine or for reading and mastering the Abhidhamma pitaka or the sutta pitaka? Fruit of lobha. > transgression. Without guidance from suttas there would be more > transgressions arising through Phil, I sense. Crude stuff. Then I'm very grateful for suttas. I'm grateful for them anyway, but even more so now. > I've meant so many people who have never > > heard nor considered the Buddha's words and yet have a deeper > insight > > into reality (and realities, including anicca, anatta, and dukkha) > > than many people who can ramble for hours and hours about the > > technical details of Buddhist conceptual frameworks; > > Ph: This is an obvious question, but how did you know this without > their expressing themselves in Dhamma terms, conceptual terms? Very different-sounding words can be used to describe the same characteristics and understandings; yet, very different phenomena and understandings may often be described by very similar-sounding words. What is the understanding that is really being described? Look for clues in a person's behavior, descriptions, reactions, etc. If they use a different vocabulary (e.g., Christian vs. Buddhist), try translating their descriptions of events, reality, and characteristics of attributed to "self" into Buddhist terminology. Is there evidence of their recognition of the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and dukkha? If they have any understanding these characteristics, then their words will reflect that understanding. Their conceptualizations will strongly emphasize the characteristics that they see most clearly. However, language that is filled with talk of the characteristics (whether in Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, etc. vocabulary) may also just reflect parroting of someone else's words or simply an intellectual understanding. A person with a deeper understanding will notice the three characteristics in many more circumstances and situations and will point them out in ways that seem new or will often respond to events very quickly with a tilakkana interpretation. Even then, though, the wise-sounding language may just be a highly trained intellectual reflex action. More discussion, more observation, over a longer span of time will gradually bring into focus the depth of the understanding. Or not. Sarah and Jon are both asking the same question, and a better explanation will be forthcoming. When? When the time allows for a decent post about it. Patience is urged. Metta, Dan 46575 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & other Cooranites/Qld DSGers, I know Nina already answered but I’d like to add a little more to your first question as you kindly addressed me too. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Firstly there was the question; "Does a cetasika experience its > object?" I would have thought the answer was clearly, yes. If I > remember correctly, the introductory pages of ADL tell us, "Nama > experiences an object; rupa doesn't experience anything." ... S: Yes. Atthasalini: “..the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to mental properties, because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc].” ... > However, there was some opinion amongst us that citta was the only > nama that experienced an object, and cetasikas merely "flavoured" > that experience. Judging from a comment Htoo once made to Sarah, I > think he would agree with this second view: Sarah had referred to > panna as experiencing an object and Htoo replied, "Panna does not > experience: citta experiences." (Or words to that effect.) ... S: I had meant to question Htoo on this point . As Nina said, citta is the chief in experiencing, but the cetasikas experience the same object with their own particular functions. CMA, ch 11, Compendium of Mental Factors “Ekuppaada-nirodhaa ca ekaalambana-vatthukaa Cetoyuttaa dvipa~n~naasa dhammaa cetasikaa mataa” “The fifty-two states associated with consciousness that arise and cease together (with consciousness), that have the same object and base (as consciousness), are known as mental factors. BB Guide Note; “That arise and cease together (with consciousness): The first verse defines the mental factors by way of four characteristics that are common to them all: 1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada) 2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha) 3) having the same object as consciousness (ekaalambana) 4) having he same base as consciousness (ekavatthuka)” <...> “...all mental phenomena experience an object, co-arisen citta and cetasikas experience the same object, while material phenomena do not experience any object at all.” ... <...> Back to Htoo’s comment and the role of panna as forerunner in various suttas, let me add this quote from the Atthasalini too as clearly you’ve had some discussion on this point and I’d like to make it very clear. Atthasalini, Analysis of Terms: “But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena (pa.n.naasakusaladhammehi). But it may be said that consciousness has arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba"ngama.m). For in worldly phenomena consciousness (lokiya dhamma.m) is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.” Metta, Sarah ========= 46576 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH & all, KenH: > Speaking of Htoo; there is another question I have been mulling over > for some time. Htoo looked carefully at the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > and noticed that the translation, "When he is walking he knows he is > walking," should actually be, "When he is walking he knows, in > detail, he is walking." Are the words "in detail" a way in which the > suttas distinguish paramattha dhammas from concepts? ... S: I pointed out that the term, ‘pajaanaati’ (which he was referring to) was given in the Vibhanga as a synonym for panna. Remember the analogies of the way that the child, the old woman and the money-changer view the coins for the ways in which sanna, citta and panna experience dhammas? Perhaps we can say ‘knows clearly’. .. To requote from my earlier post if I may: S: >Pajaanaa(ti) is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na,sammaadi.t.thi, vipassanaa or anupassanaa as I understand. From the Satipatthana comy: (clearly sampaja~n~na, pa~n~naa and sammadi.t.thi are again given as synonyms): “sampajaanoti tattha katama.m sampaja~n~na.m? yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... sammaadi.t.thi. ida.m vuccati sampaja~n~na.m. iminaa sampaja~n~nena upeto hoti...pe0... samannaagato. tena vuccati sampajaanoti." Gacchanto – As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on .< **** S:New! Back to the other extract you referred to: (SN XXI.10), > which uses the words, "in its details" and which is clearly talking > about absolute (momentary) reality: > > "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case > where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is > relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of > being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living > alone is perfected in its details." ... S: As Nina said, we’d have to check the Pali in different contexts. Ok, here’s the Pali: for this one: ‘ekavihaaro vitthaare.na paripu.n.no’ Buddhadatta dict: “paripu.n.na (pp of paripuurati), quite full, fulfilled, complete; perfect” So it’s something like ‘living alone fulfilled/perfected’ here’. From a recent installment of ‘Cetasikas’ “We may find it difficult to see that even when we do not harm or hurt others, the citta can still be akusala. For example, when we like nature, there is a degree of attachment and attachment is not kusala, it is different from unselfishness. We may see the danger of akusala which is coarse, but it is difficult to see the danger of akusala which is more subtle.” Hope that helps a little, Metta, Sarah ====== 46577 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH (& Howard), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Thanks for your help with this. I agree with everything you have > said, but I want to talk, again, about possibly taking anatta too > far. If I have gone at it like a bull at a gate, it wouldn't be the > first time. ... S: :)Always good to hear your reflections, KenH. Hope you're undusting and posting some of those other drafted replies to other posts too:). .... > We are talking about two separate things here. Firstly, "Conditions > are never simple." Accordingly, it is a mistake to think, of any > conventional reality; "This is kusala kamma; that akusala kamma; > this is desirable vipaka; that is undesirable vipaka; this came > about by natural decisive support condition, . . . and so on." > > Secondly, we know (despite conventional evidence to the contrary) > that kusala kamma brings desirable results and akusala kamma brings > undesirable results. > > Bearing those two different things in mind, isn't it sensible to > learn about the conditioned realities; dana, sila and bhavana, > without trying to practise them? (I know this is consistent with > opinions you have expressed many times, but can it be taken too far?) ... S: All agreed and I don't see how it can be taken too far. (Howard whom you also addressed may not be so easy to please, however:) hope he joins in). .... > So, for example, if a house has termites its owner should have it > fumigated - because that's what householders do. ... S: I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. .... >He might be running > a grave risk: life here and now might be comfortable and termite > free, but the next life (or one after that) might be far less > comfortable as a result of his kamma. So be it. It is a risk > householders take. ... S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't this just speculation about various situations, rather than any understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. [OK, anecdote; a couple of weeks ago while I was doing my Tai Chi with Miss Wong, there was no running water from the artificial fountain in our high-rise 5th floor garden, the artificial pond was artifically stagnant and we were inundated by very 'real' mosquitoes which she was swatting away at and I was trying to ignore -- we were both being bitten a lot. When I returned upstairs, as we're told to do on the daily TV ads (because of the risk of dengue fever and encaphalitis in this part of town), I reported the problem to the management office and suggested they should take a look at the fountain and the stagnant pool. The next day, I got a report to say they'd dealt with the problem by bringing in the fumigation officers who had killed all the mosquitoes in the area. I hadn't had any intention of asking for this action, but anyone would assume I had, which is no problem] .... > > From time to time, a charity collector will knock on the door and > the householder will duly give $5. Again, there should be no attempt > at identifying; "This is willingness to give; that is reluctance to > give; this will bring happy/unhappy results," or anything of that > sort. Whatever will be will be. ... S: I agree. Otherwise, again it's wanting more kusala for self rather than developing understanding with detachment. .... > > It is natural to expect that, as our understanding of the Dhamma > grows, so too will our ability to know which conventional activities > are wholesome and which are unwholesome. To my mind, that is not the > case: kusala kamma will follow, by conditions, from right > understanding, but there will be no idea of knowingness. Any idea of > knowingness would be just another idea of control. > What do you think? ... S: I think there will be less thought or concern about conventional activities....i.e less getting lost in the 'signs and details' as more understanding of realities grows. with regard to your p.s (snipped by mistake), I know you are not depressed by this and don't see it as 'a picture of helplessness and hopelessness :-)'. As you say, it's 'quite the reverse'. Learning to live alone with dhammas experienced through the six doorways is not depressing in the slightest. When there is panna, it illuminates. No need to move the objects around first. Metta, Sarah ======== 46578 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi AndrewT,(*for James) --- Andrew wrote: > I haven't had much time to post lately as Millie, the officer manager > cat well known to Cooran attendees has had a stroke and lost most of > her mobility. So I am nursing her constantly ... ... S: [kitty digression time -- Millie was also the name of my mother's cat that died....actually, she caused a little bit of to-do when she named her Millie because (unknown to her), her great grand-daughter was about to be officially called Millie too:) *James, I thought your kitty analogy was very cute....the friendly 'nip' when kitty is stroked a little too much:). As long as it's just a nip, no problem for any cat-lover, but if a visitor strokes kitty the wrong way and the 'nip' becomes a 'bite', then mightn't you get a little concerned for both kitty and the visitor? Still, even then, it's just kamma-result and other dhammas that can be known. I was reminded of this when I was bitten by a dog when visiting K.Sujin once. It was quite painful, but she just reminded me of kamma:)] Anyway, Andrew, hope your Millie gets well and that she can spare you for a little more posting:). ... <..> > I think we have had many discussions about "direct knowing" and how > impossible it is to think back and say about an event "I directly > knew that reality". "Direct knowing" just happens and then is gone. > Actually, this is entirely consistent with anatta. There *is* no > abiding knower. ... S: Well put. .... > But Ken H then says - so just do what householders do. But "what > householders do" is an idea just as much as any other. ... S: Agreed. ... >Are you > saying that we shouldn't reflect on what householders do using Dhamma > as our reference? Why? Because we are too ignorant? Surely, when > deciding what to do, option A and option B are both risks? Both > tainted by ignorance? ... S: I think the point here is that when reflecting about the options and so on, it's just thinking, not direct awareness of what is conditioned already. We might think that we will just grin and bear the problem, find an alternative or leave kitty alone for awhile, but do the opposite when the time comes. Just conditioned dhammas to be known. Metta, Sarah ====== 46579 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & James, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Migajala Sutta succinctly emphasizes abandoning tanha as the > meaning of "living alone". ... S: Yes ... >But your interpretation of this sutta to > justify > foregoing of your seclusion and returning to family life was caused by > cravings (for household joys), rather than the opposite. ... S: Of course there are always mixed motives. Actually, it was pretty idyllic in many ways for a robot:). What I returned to, on the other hand, was complete household chaos, but that's another story. No, my interpretation of the sutta was and is that the deep meaning of seclusion or living alone has nothing to do with the surroundings and everything to do with the mental states. Previously I had had the idea that certain lifestyles were 'better' for the development of satipatthana. I no longer thought or think this. .... >Why didn't all > monks who listened to this sutta forego their monkhood and returned to > their household lives? .... S: Because they also understood that the Buddha wasn't suggesting they should lead a particular lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. He encouraged everyone to know themselves well, to really know their accumulations --whether as a bhikkhu or lay person -- and to develop satipatthana in order to abandon the partner of craving. Even the bhikkhus led very different lifestyles -- compare MahaKassapa's lifestyle with that of Ananda's. So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 46580 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I hope others give a sutta choice too. Of course, we all need to hear many, many suttas over and over again and none of us are going to become enlightened just by reading one:). --- Tep Sastri wrote: > However, the First Discourse does not give me enough detail to > practice for my Stream-entry. The detail I need is found in MN 9, > Samma-ditthi Sutta, a discourse by the Great Arahant Sariputta. > Therefore, MN 9 is my answer to the quiz question. ... S: This is very rich sutta indeed -- maybe a little longer than I understood your criteria to include:). You asked Nina for a sutta which differentiates between paramattha dhammas and pannatti and in other discussions between people and dhammas, I think. Isn't it always a question of how we read these suttas? For example, in MN9 under 'Ageing and Death' we read (Nanamoli/Bodhi tansl): "The passing of beings out of various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body - this is called death." ... S: I don't think anyone would have any problem with this definition of death, including non-Buddhists. So where is the profundity of the teachings we hear so much about? How does this relate to the section before it about the first Noble Truth? Let's look at the commentary note on these same lines: "Now, to explain death in (terms valid in) the ultimate sense, he next says 'the dissolution of the aggregates (khandhaana"m bhedo) etc* For in the ultimate sense it is only the aggregates that break up; it is not any so called being that dies. But when the aggregates are breaking up convention says 'a being is dying' and when they have broken up convention says '(he is) dead'." *Bodhi note: "Whereas the previous definitions were framed in conventional terminology, those valid in the ultimate sense (paramattha) define their subjects solely in terms of 'ultimate realities' such as aggregates and sense bases." ... S: So going back to the first Noble Truth, we read at the end: "...in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering." .... S:I would suggest that without clearly understanding what paramattha dhammas are, we are likely to read any sutta with ideas that people, beings and bodies actually exist and can be known. I welcome any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I have several of your other posts marked for replies, but I always need to consider and check references for you, Tep:)Like Phil, I greatly appreciate all your research and deep reflections as usual. ======== 46581 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Invariable Fact ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Any Cause produce an Effect: Therefore: Never do any even minor Evil! Neither openly here, nor in secret there... If having done bad or is doing wrong now, pain surely returns, even though one flee by flying away... The effect of any action, good as bad, follows the doer like a shadow that never leaves... Consequence is Certain... Why so ? Because one cannot hide anything for one's own mind! It knows & remembers! Mind is thus forerunner of all phenomena... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46582 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:37am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard, > I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, > among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism > or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to > be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the > Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead > uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" > or "is not found" or "does not obtain". That's true, but even among the Indian teachers outside the Buddhasaasanaa (including, e.g., the materialist thinkers) it was the norm for the ideas of presence and absence to be conveyed more often by verbs relating to findability than to existence. I suspect that this was either a standard circumlocution in philosophical discourse or just an idiomatic convention of Indic languages. I would therefore be cautious about reading too much into it, or seeing in it an anticipation of phenomenalism. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando 46583 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:13am Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > I believe it was RobertK who told a wonderful story about meeting > someone who was so proud of how much insight she had that she missed > her plane and couldn't even recognize her husband. I'm sure I majorly > mangled the details, but the point is, as you noted, that spaciness > is not a sign of insight. ________ Dear Dan, Nice post. Just to add the details, she didn't miss a plane (I think that part was from a different story about sarah almost missing a plane). This friend understood that vipassana is not about thinking but about the direct seeing of realities at the 6 doors. So she thought that when seeing only see - and DON'T think about what was seen. So when she was DOING vipassana she couldn't (or thought she couldn't ) recognize anything, even her husband. This is trying to force insight: it doesn't work that way. Robert > 46584 From: "lone_renunciant" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: Discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to > reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. > > Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I > might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be > welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? > And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a > bad rebirth in the immediate future.< > .... > S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I > think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are > referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the > Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. > > We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the > Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' > and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas > disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The > outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of > white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, > could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to > penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the > last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising > of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). > ... > > S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need > to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine > and the discipline'. > > The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward > signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after > the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant > discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, > relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very > 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' > you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we > really have a say in the matter. > > Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the > discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the > right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This > way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly > pursuits. Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). Once my friend arrived, I could again see how beings were related to their merit, and how worldly-oriented people generally make a lot of demerit (some exceptions yes). I had the ability, just prior to this, if I so chose, to walk away and pursue "deeds of merit," and feel very strongly that I was walking along the path. This creates some unease in me because since I was hospitalized after my intial experiences with Buddhism I feel I have been conditioned off that path, even off the discipline. So anyway, after a brief stop, my friend and I left the donut shop and headed for a corner with two benches. I kind of could have described to him, the dhamma, and about how I felt I was doing, or what I could do, for future lives, but yesterday I was not feeling like a leader, so I was engaged in some 'basic' interaction, which, to my prior state, felt like idle chatter, but to what came later in the day, was still self-discipline. It eventually deteriorated into full idle chatter as I provided no direction for the evening and I could see how terribly wasteful people are of merit. You might point out that dhamma can be practised during idle chatter, but the doctrine & the discipline involves speaking *on* the dhamma and the discipline, what is meaningful, and so on, this includes abstaining from idle chatter. So this is sort of what I mean by the discipline. I could have created a whole world of dhamma for myself, but I didn't. I came away instead with a few lessons: as dhammapada and sutta nipata say: Don't live with the company of foolish or bad men (who are headed for rebirth as a bird), try to be more independent and take my own direction through life, try to be mindful and not rack up large amounts of demerit (begin practising all types of right speech when circumstances present themselves), and, more immediately, try to find and read about doing deeds of merit. This is trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 future lives, thinking about how / if I will get future (consecutive) human lives, realizing the rarity of human birth among other beings who haven't the merit now gives us almost an obligation to carry out our practise on a straight path to the end. A righteous friend would be nice, I do not know if I can do the major work of this alone, but I can try, if I keep these points in mind, and think on the dhamma occasion to occasion, perhaps even trying to 'force it' less than I currently do. Yes, that was somewhat of an admission that I force practise, when sometimes the path just unfurls itself to me when I least expect it. I simply don't have any certainty. I would be open to feedback in this department if anyone would be so kind, open-minded if there are any new ideas presented that seem to accord with my past and potential future experiences. Perhaps it's all or none, that is, I should have told my friend what I was doing with myself from that point and left instead of letting it be nothing but a Dunkin Donuts trip and idle chatter going from bar to bar looking for one with the NBA Finals on TV (No drinking, just wanted to see the game ;) and idle chattering a-lot. I do find it difficult to speak on the dhamma, I'm not very articulate, perhaps because I sometimes read about it in an obsessive or addictive way. so that takes away, but still, I should be able to salvage something. Anyway, hope this provides a glimpse for others on the list for what I was talking about when I mention discipline and clear up the ideas I shared with Sarah previously off the list. G.l., A.L. 46585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (Sarah and James) - Ph: Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate your participation here. Tep: That is nice to hear, after I have been blasted lately! Ph: But as I said in a thread to Howard, I do believe the Buddha's words can have a suibstantial impact in our lives when it comes to reducing - dramatically - the likelihood of moral transgressions. So I will continue to read suttas with that aspiration in mind. As for subtler understanding, I can only patiently stay open to Dhamma, with patience. Tep: Thank you for the clarification, Phil. I also like that comment on staying open to the Dhamma with patience. Ph: I will continue to read, listen and reflect, with as few expectations as possible. (Except for the previouisly mentionned desire to reduce the likelihood of moral transgressions.) Thich Nhat Hahn used the memorable metaphor of the Dhamma soaking in like soft rain into hard earth. Patience. We tend to be so thirsty for Dhamma, for understanding. Tep: That is a nice metaphor! The water will keep the ground moist and cool, if the weather is not too hot. > Tep: Could you please tell me what do you have in mind to help you > get deeper into the Rahula Samyutta? Ph: Read it and reflect on it whenever the opportunity arises in a natural, unforced way. Listen. Discuss. Turn to the Buddha's teaching for moral guidance in the area of moral transgressions that would make the patient approach described above less likely to arise. Tep: That is perfect with respect to gaining deeper intellectual understanding. Ph: I am not a monk and I think it would be foolish for me to pretend to be one. That may not be the case for you and others. Tep: Frankly, although I am a lot older than you, your understanding of the Teachings does not seem to be different. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > Phil (talking about the Rahula Samyutta): Are we able to answer > the > > Buddha's questions, are we able to understand the impermanence, > > suffering and anattaness of all the realities/elements listed in > the sutta? > > Of course we're not. It's all words. But it's clear to me when I > read this sutta where the task ahead lies. > > > > Tep: Since you are not able to understand the words of the > Buddha's, then what else do you have as a better alternative? > 46586 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Thep, > I can see that it has nothing to do with > "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). For modern academic buddhologists saccato thetato marks the first stage in a doctrinal evolution that eventually culminates in the notion of paramattha dhammas: saccato thetato, leading to ..... propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to ..... sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. They then voice various opinions on how much the later conception was/was not implied by the earlier one. For commentary-following Theravaadins, on the other hand, the difference is viewed as only one of phrasing, not meaning. The only things that are real are things that exist saccato thetato, and according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. And so the most traditional of commentary-following Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Their disagreement only concerns the nature of this connection. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46587 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:14am Subject: Middle Ways, Out of social context, and a Dhamma quizz jwromeijn Hallo After I send my message, quoted below, in the thread "out of social context" I thought: the Middle Way principle and Abhidhamma don't fit together very good, because Abhidhamma (or the way it's used most times here) is very absolutistic: something is kusala or akusala, something is a concept or it's ultimate truth. Joop (in # ) : "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" In 'Useful Posts' the Middle can only be found four times, the most interesting was of Jon in # 3836. Jon: "Some time ago there was some discussion on the question of the Middle Path – What are the various extremes for which the Path is the middle? … a passage from the first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya titled "Crossing over the Flood" the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." Recently I came across this sutta in the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as `The Connected Discourses of the Buddha'. The translation there is – "It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood." In a note to the sutta it explains that this is a reference to the middle way (majjhima patipada) and it gives 7 pairs of extremes that are mentioned in the commentary to the sutta. They are - (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining by way of volitional formations [kkhanddha], one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks; by way of views one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations[akusala sankhara] one sinks, by way of all wholesome mundane volitional formations [kusala sankhara] one gets swept away." This are examples of one of the meanings, as far as I understand it, the term Middle Path has in the Suttas: prescriptive, about the right behavior. An example of this use of the term isalso : Practicing the Middle Way (Devadaha Sutta) Majjhima Nikaya 101 Andrew Olendzki: "The Buddha's profound teaching of the middle way, applied particularly to the dynamics of meditation practice, is the theme of this passage from the Devadaha Sutta. The point is finding the right balance between "striving with determination" and "looking on with equanimity." Neither approach is correct all the time, but each can be used as a skillful technique for addressing certain mental states. The two approaches complete one another." Another meaning of the term "Middle Way" is of a philosophical kind. It's the way I used the term in my message. It's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes. The extremes of The annihilationist view and the eternalist view in the most important (I think) example of it: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) Metta Joop 46589 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Lisa - I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it, you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and receive the due honour for it." The Great Sage praised his disciples who asked questions about the Bodhipakkheya dhammas: the Four Noble Truths; the method for developing the four foundations of mindfulness; the method for developing the four right endeavours; the fourfold super normal powers (bala);the method for developing the fivefold mental faculties(indriya); the method for developing the seven enlightnment factors; the method for developing the Noble Eightfold path. Then he talked about "the method for developing the eight releases" (vimokkha), the method for developing the eight masteries (special perceptions), the method for developing the ten kasina signs, the method for developing the four jhanas, the various supernormal powers, the method for destroying desires or releasing the mind of desires, and lastly how to be released through wisdom. Lisa: Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? ... ... When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. Tep: Do you want to know how the color pattern (perception) arises, or why the pattern you saw during your retreat does not appear anymore? Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. > > Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? > I do have a more intellectually inclined friend who is going to help me with this sutta because I do like it so much. We are both going to read it together and then share notes and insights. There are many passages that remind me of my own meditations especially > with the colors. I've always seen colors blossom like flowers behind > my closed eyes even when I didn't meditate. When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. > That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color > when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. > 46590 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:22am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi John, > Are you saying that people who have not heard the teachings could > develop a deep understanding of anatta as a characteristic of reality? Yes. More later... > > I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient > >depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still > >POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what > >99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. > > > > I think this comparison raises quite different issues. One could > probably make a similar comment about the core concepts of any religion ;-)) Yup. I don't know very much about Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism, but Buddhism and reformation Christianity share the core doctrine of the tilakkana, albeit expressed in different words. Dan 46591 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr12no3/majjhima75-101.html Tep: Hi, Lisa - I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it,you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and receive the due honour for it." L: 06/13/-- Tep,these people, the Forest Dwellers were not part of the monastic community they come in from the wild places to listen to the Teachings? They are renunciates? Could this also apply to a city dweller like me who isn't a Nun but listens to Buddha's teachings and reads the doctrine? And twice a year I go to retreat for two weeks and listen to Dhamma teachings and meditate. I dwell secluded and alone most of the time even when I am walking in a crowd and living among millions of people I am alone. All the people, sky scrapers, and busy things to do are just like all the trees and their busy leaves dancing in the wind and all the ants running up and down their tree trunks putting away food for another day. And the other forest dwellers going about their daily tasks are just as busy as the city dwellers going about their daily lives. Do you have to go to the forest to be a renunciate? Can't one practice renunciation anywhere because where ever you are you cannot avoid what's going on in the head and body the body and mind are always there whether in the forest or in the city with company or without company. Can't the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytime or do you have to be physically secluded to do this? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? If seculsion, that is external seculsion is important than many people who live secluded simple lives away from social obligations surely have found release from the dreary rounds of rebirth because they to live simple secluded lives in the forest and also follow the Dhamma just as the Gotama's Forest Dwellers who also are honored in this passage. There are also many people who are in prison and mentally ill who also follow Dhamma as best they can and they too live secluded lives away from the busy social life. What is the difference from these people and the Forest Dwellers? Shouldn't all that follow Dhamma be honored and praised just as the Forest Dwellers are also praised because there is really no self there just dhammas? [[Does the honor go to one who has let go of any idea of I and therefore knows s/he is not one or many? Where does the honor go when it is given to someone like this? The giving due honor to whom or what, how does this help us unbind from craving and aversion? When there really is no me or mine how can one give this honor? Who receives it and who gives it? So the giving of honor just is and that is all it is and it does not belong to anyone or anything. It is empty and void and those who seek it or want it shall only find dukkha. Why does the Great Sage give praise to what is empty? I think this is why there was such deep silence in Gotama's circle.]] Tep: The Great Sage praised his disciples who asked questions about the Bodhipakkheya dhammas: the Four Noble Truths; the method for developing the four foundations of mindfulness; the method for developing the four right endeavours; the fourfold super normal powers (bala);the method for developing the fivefold mental faculties (indriya); the method for developing the seven enlightnment factors; the method for developing the Noble Eightfold path. Then he talked about "the method for developing the eight releases" (vimokkha), the method for developing the eight masteries (special perceptions), the method for developing the ten kasina signs, the method for developing the four jhanas, the various supernormal powers, the method for destroying desires or releasing the mind of desires, and lastly how to be released through wisdom. L: 06/13/ Excellent summary of the Sutta thank you very much I saved it along with my notes. I will use that as an example of how to summarize. Thank you very much Tep. Lisa: Question: There are some words and passages I just don't understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me understand it better? ... ... When I did my first retreats years ago the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. Tep: Do you want to know how the color pattern (perception) arises, or why the pattern you saw during your retreat does not appear anymore? Kind regards, Tep L: 06/13/ Yes I would like to know why these colors came up and why they went away if it is helpful to letting go of my attachment to any idea or thought of self. When one color became dominate it took up my whole vision and it started out as a small dot and grew until it filled up the vision field. It was like swimming into a world of color and as I sat there and just watched this with my eyes closed. I think I went through five coloredworlds, green, purple, orange, yellow and red including no color it was black, and gray and something that was like gold but wasn't exactly a color it was more like just glowing light that was everywhere. There wasn't really any nice or painful sensation just a kind of wonder at what was going on as I watched and if a thought came up about what was happening I just watched it like I was watching the colors. Although I do not swim through worlds of color I still see colors when I meditate. After the retreat when I went home the anxiety that I usually suffered from had lessened to a point where it no longer took my breath away and I could watch it as it manifested. I could let it go even when I was doing stressful things like driving my Mini Van full of screaming 10 year olds. I wonder if this is because I learned to let go of the colors and thoughts during retreat. In my Dhamma studies I had never read about anything like this so when I went to retreat I did as my teacher said and just sat and let everything that was in my head and body, come and go as it wished. I never really discussed this with my meditation teacher and my Dhamma teacher told me to be careful not to get attached to the meditation when I told him about everything that happened at the retreats I went to, so I just let the stuff in the head and body come and go as it wished. I didn't want to form another attachment to meditation too. L:06/13/ The next post I have will be about the paragraph during the start of this sutta where it seemed to mention Gotama's past life and how he sat in silence and listened to a Buddha and I wonder if that set up the conditions up when he became a teacher? Or maybe I'm confused over the tenses in the paragraph. I have to go to work now my boss just saw me working on my Dhamma Quiz. He is very tolerant and that is why I work for him (The best Boss in the World). With Metta, Lisa 46592 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 6/13/05 6:38:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Dear Howard, > I have a perspective that the Dhamma as a philosophy, is, > among many other things, a species of pragmatic empiricism > or phenomenalism that takes existence and observability to > be effectively the same thing. It is my observation that the > Buddha rarely says that something doesn't exist, but instead > uses expressions such as "is not seen" or "is not evident" > or "is not found" or "does not obtain". That's true, but even among the Indian teachers outside the Buddhasaasanaa (including, e.g., the materialist thinkers) it was the norm for the ideas of presence and absence to be conveyed more often by verbs relating to findability than to existence. I suspect that this was either a standard circumlocution in philosophical discourse or just an idiomatic convention of Indic languages. I would therefore be cautious about reading too much into it, or seeing in it an anticipation of phenomenalism. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando ======================= You could, indeed, be right in this. It is plausible. Of course it might also be that the main thrust of Indian thought was along subjectivist, mind-only lines, and that influenced language usage, even that of the materialists. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46593 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/13/05 2:04:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, I'd like to re-post the Pali (cleaned up this time) and ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi translation for the paragraph from the Alagadduupama Sutta, MN22 #25.: Translation (with a few key Pali words added): ============ "Bhikkhus, there being a self (attain), would there be what belongs to my self (attaniye)?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be my self?" - "Yes, venerable sir." - "Bhikkhus, since a self (attani) and what belongs to a self (attaniye) are not apprehended (anupalabbhamaane) as true and established (saccato thetato), then this stand-point for views (di.t.thi.t.thaana.m), namely, 'The self and the world are the same (so loko so attaa); after death I shall be permanent (nicco), everlasting (dhuvo), eternal (sassato), not subject to change (aviparo); I shall endure as long as eternity (sassatisma.m)' - would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching (baaladhammo)?" ...... Pali ======== 37. Attani vaa bhikkhave sati' attaniya.m me'ti assaati? 'Eva.m bhante.' Attaniye vaa bhikkhave sati 'attaa me'ti assaati? Eva.m bhante. Attani ca bhikkhave attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane* yampida.m** di.t.thi.t.thaana.m 'so loko so attaa, so pecca bhavissaami nicco dhuvo sassato avipari.naamadhammo, sassatisama.m tatheva .thassaamii'ti, nanaaya bhikkhave kevalo paripuuro baaladhammoti? 'Ki.m hi no siyaa bhante, kevalo paripuuro*** baaladhammo'ti. ..... (Pali foot-notes- *Anupalabbhiyamaane, syaa. Sii **Yampi ta.m, machasa.m ***. Kevalo hi bhante paripuuro, machasa.m.) ..... S: Also, Howard, I pointed out your message to Jim A and he also saw Ven Dhammanando's comprehensive comments in the meantime. He wrote: Jim:>I thought his post (#46496) was excellent and provides a better explanation than I could have. There doesn't seem to be anything I can add.< Metta, Sarah ========================= Thank you very much for this, including contacting Jim. While one could imagine even more direct language, this sutta certainly constitutes the strongest no-self Dhamma teaching that I have seen so far. It certainly goes beyond a "not self" statement, and it is very far from merely being an expression of a not-self "strategy". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46594 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: Value of conceptual descriptions of characteristics onco111 Thanks for re-telling the story correctly, Robert. You tell good stories. Dan > This friend understood that vipassana is not about thinking but > about the direct seeing of realities at the 6 doors. So she thought > that when seeing only see - and DON'T think about what was seen. So > when she was DOING vipassana she couldn't (or thought she couldn't ) > recognize anything, even her husband. This is trying to force > insight: it doesn't work that way. 46595 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for coming in on my post to Howard. I'd just like to comment on one of your points. Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Jon (and Howard, among others) - >... >2. My experience indicates that when I am fully aware of an object >(arammana) there is sati-sampajanna, and there is no akusala. But >when the mind is defiled by an akusala, awareness only arises after >the defilement has subsided. So there is a time delay before >awareness is back in control. Then I can meditate by citta-nupassana >on the mind state (with the subsided defilement). The good news is : the >more often I direct attention to practice citta-nupassana every now and >then, the shorter the awareness-time-delay becomes. > > I would say that whether the on-going mind-state is kusala (such as metta) or akusala (such as dosa), it is possible for awareness to arise during that on-going mindsatate, just as it is possible for other mixed kinds of consciousness to arise. Think of enjoying something but experiencing painful feeling at the same time, or any other number of similarly examples. In the same way, awareness can arise regardless of the nature of the on-going mental state at the time. Jon 46596 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Howard, > You could, indeed, be right in this. It is plausible. Of > course it might also be that the main thrust of Indian > thought was along subjectivist, mind-only lines, and that > influenced language usage, even that of the materialists. > :-) Could be! But we'll end up with a strange bunch of theories if we go down that road. Perhaps the fact that Pali has three verbs "to be" but no verb "to have" suggests its speakers were Frommians as well as subjective idealists. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando 46597 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:38pm Subject: objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, This is how you start over. First, you erase the completely irrelevant subject heading and put a more appropriate one in its place. Then, ask a question: When ignorance experiences an object, it gets it wrong somehow. Isn't that mistake what is the object of desire? Do you desire paramattha dhammas, dhammas that are impermanent, painful, and empty? Examples? When you knowingly experience a paramattha dhamma, do you do so with desire or aversion? What do you desire right now? Larry 46598 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Jon and Andrew T (and Sarah), I was about to send the following post when I read Sarah's latest, very helpful, contributions to this thread. Perhaps she has answered all of my questions. See what you think: ------------------------- Jon: > I think you're arguing against acting on a partial but incomplete understanding of certain aspects of the teaching, --------------------------- Yes, but I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a clearer picture of what I was talking about. ------------------------------------------------ J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first precept. ----------------------------------------------- That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, eventually, not even have my own kitchen. There is the obvious objection, "Who is going to do the dirty work? Someone has to grow the crops and remove vermin from the restaurants etc." The equally obvious answer has been, "There is no shortage of people who are only too willing to do those jobs." I'm not sure that answer is entirely satisfactory. It hints at a them- and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators (for example) can't be as good as other people. But I think the suttas tell us about hunters, soldiers and even an executioner who attained the final goal. Are we to assume that they followed those careers only before hearing the Dhamma? Even so, they must have had extraordinary accumulations of sila and panna at the time. In at least one of those cases (quoted in Sarah's musings thread) the hunters were the husband and sons of a sotapanna. Surely they would have heard the Dhamma from her. If so, that would suggest they were good Buddhists even while carrying on their 'wrong' livelihoods. (I realise, BTW, they couldn't continue in wrong livelihood after Stream-entry.) ------------------------------------------------------ J: > Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your reference to the house full of termites? ------------------------------------------------------ As I was saying, I still don't have this perspective clear in my mind. But, yes, I think there would be wrong understanding in any Buddhist householder who agonised over fumigating his termite- infested house. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi KenH and Andrew > > kenhowardau wrote: > > >I am saying it can be a mistake to act upon views. Understand the > >ultimate nature of views, but don't place too much store by them in > >the conventional sense. > > > 46599 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 6/13/05 7:25:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammanando@... writes: Could be! But we'll end up with a strange bunch of theories if we go down that road. Perhaps the fact that Pali has three verbs "to be" but no verb "to have" suggests its speakers were Frommians as well as subjective idealists. :-) ========================= Point well taken! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)