46600 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; plus Cooran buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > *James, I thought your kitty analogy was very cute....the friendly 'nip' > when kitty is stroked a little too much:). :-)) Glad you liked it. As long as it's just a nip, no > problem for any cat-lover, but if a visitor strokes kitty the wrong way > and the 'nip' becomes a 'bite', then mightn't you get a little concerned > for both kitty and the visitor? Don't worry, that doesn't happen. My cat is very friendly with visitors and strangers and hasn't 'bitten' anyone. He will even let the men who deliver my groceries or pick up my laundry pet him. Metta, James 46601 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:42pm Subject: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks > not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be > hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the > whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different > lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't > preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting > this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== You didn't speak too much about the temple itself. If there was an arahant monk leading that Sri Lankan forest temple, do you think you still would have left? Granted, one can follow the Buddha's teachings as a householder, but it is much more difficult (as the Buddha taught and as you experienced upon your return home). It is a very nice sutta though and it reminds people that living like a monk is no guarantee for happiness. Happiness comes from defeating Mara who is with us all the time- in the forest temple and in family home. It was nice for you to share the sutta you believe best meets Tep's requirements: <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough for Stream-entry">. I have also picked a sutta, "The Great Lion's Roar" DN8, which I will post about later as I am busy packing (getting ready to move and travel). Take care. Metta, James 46602 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. Evan_Stamato... Hi Sarah, I would like to point out that the suttas do make it clear that a particular lifestyle is better for developing satipatthana. In many suttas, when a bhikkhu attains nibbana, the following stock phrase is used: "He in no long time entered and remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness." So they are right to go forth from home life into homelessness. Also, it is said of the home life that it is "dusty" as is shown below - in this case the Buddha's own thoughts while he was still a Boddhisatta (MN36). "The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell." This stock phrase is also used to refer to a "householder or a householder's son" as is MN38. As I see it, the Buddha makes it clear that the homeless life makes it easier to lead the holy life. Metta, Evan .... S: Because they also understood that the Buddha wasn't suggesting they should lead a particular lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. He encouraged everyone to know themselves well, to really know their accumulations --whether as a bhikkhu or lay person -- and to develop satipatthana in order to abandon the partner of craving. Even the bhikkhus led very different lifestyles -- compare MahaKassapa's lifestyle with that of Ananda's. So, James, I agree with your point that 'the Buddha isn't telling monks not to seek seclusion in the forest, it is telling them not to be hypocritical about it - seeking seclusion and yet partnering craving the whole while.' I also agree with your comments about the very different lifestyles for bhikkhus and lay-people and that 'The Buddha wasn't preaching against a monastic lifestyle in that sutta'. I wasn't suggesting this, but perhaps it wasn't clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 46603 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:42pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 221 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Because of ignorance we take the satisfaction in pleasant experiences through the senses for true happiness. Do we consider the enjoyment of pleasant things the goal of our life? We tend to forget that pleasant things do not last, that our body declines and that we are susceptible to sickness and death. There is ignorance with each akusala citta. At such a moment we do not know the danger of the accumulation of akusala. If we do not develop right understanding of realities we live with our dreams and illusions. We want happiness for ourselves and we are ignorant of what is kusala and what is akusala. Thus there is bound to be decline in good qualities. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sixes, Chapter VIII, §10, Day and Night): * … Monks, if a monk follow six things, come day come night, just a falling away in right things may be expected, not a growth. What six? Herein, monks, a monk desires much, is fretful, discontented with this and that requisite: robe, alms, lodging, medicaments— is without faith or virtue, is indolent, forgetful in mindfulness and lacks insight. Monks, if a monk follow these six, come day come night, just a falling away in right things may be expected, not a growth. (But the opposite is true for a monk who is not like that.)" * This sutta can remind both monks and laypeople that if there is no mindfulness of the reality appearing at this moment, no development of insight, there will be decline in good qualities. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46604 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, I'm very glad to see you posting again. I apologise for the delay in responding to your earlier message addressed to me and others. Let me try to give a few comments now. --- Joop wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > "Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus `Worldly > life > > is obsessed by sixty-two classes of view', there descends the Great > > Compassion for beings." (Psm, Treatise on Knowledge,LXX1, The Great > > Compassion). .... Joop: >I concluded: "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another > person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering > being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too > extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; ... S: I don't think so. There is the dukkha which refers to bodily and mental pain and suffering, the dukkha which refers to the loss of the pleasant and the deepest meaning of dukkha, as in the first NT which refers to the impermanence of the khandhas. (see 'dukkha' in U.P.) .... > the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. .... S: Again, I don't believe this is correct. When there is compassion, for example, for a 'suffering being' there doesn't need to be any idea of a being actually existing or of permanence. Wrong views arise at different moments from the cittas accompanied by compassion and so on. I used to find this a difficult point too, so I understand. Let me know if you'd like more explanation. .... >The middle > way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative > correct at the same moment!" ... S: In truth, there are just 5 khandhas. Understanding this truth and the ignorance which keeps samsara spinning, leads to more compassion, not less as I see it. Very good points to discuss further. ... > > From that conclusion I have two questions about your quotes: > - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not > ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I > am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are > not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, > this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that > direction? ... S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these dhammas are 'universal truths'. SN22:94 "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change......Feeling....Perception....Volitional formations....Cosnciousness......;this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." .... > - If a person (not 'me' but also another one) had to be seen as a > mere convention or concept; the question is: can a concept suffer, > have dukkha ? (I think the answer is no, only a being can, and > the 'I' can. Perhaps it's very akusala but I cannot have compassion > with a concept) .... S: No, not akusala -- these are very good and important reflections as I see it, Joop. Thank you for sharing them. It's a difficult point and an important one. It seems like a conundrum, but it does 'hang together'. No, a concept doesn't suffer. Only namas experience suffering and only dhammas (namas and rupas) have the characteristic of dukkha. When there is compassion, a being or person (concept) is the object, because it is the idea of that person's suffering or difficulty that we have compassion for. Clearly we cannot experience another's pain or anguish, for example, except conceptually. We may say, 'I feel your grief', but at such a time, the reality is our own grief or compassion on account of the other's grief. I'll pause here and you can help me to understand deeper what your concern is if I've missed the boat. I haven't read your recent posts yet as I'm a little behind, but just seeing your name reminded me to get back to you on this one. I'd like to follow it through, but slowly. I hope Connie & Herman who were also addressed by you, might also add any comments. Metta, Sarah ============ 46605 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Dear Dan,(& Phil*) I'm appreciating all your discussions with various people as usual. Just a couple of brief comments on the post to me while we wait for your further elaborations: --- "Dan D." wrote: > The language is of less importance than the underlying realities that > are being described. It makes no difference at this stage whether or > not the underlying reality is described as "kamma" or "karma" > or "works"; "viññana", "motivation", or "heart"; "akusala" > or "sinful"; "kusala" or "pure"; "silabbataparamasa" or "works > righteousness"; "sila" or "law". It is quite possible for someone who > has never heard any Buddhist terms or conceptualizations to have > deeper insight into silabbataparamasa and be able to explain it more > clearly than a devout Buddhist who can discuss in great detail and > intricacy the conceptual framework of long racks of Pali terms. ... S: I think this 'devout Buddhist' set of arguments which pops up from time to time in your posts is a bit of a red herring. No one here believes that 'great detail' and 'long racks of Pali terms' etc equates with wisdom or developed satipatthana. We all quote the ways of handling the snake frequently:). Also, no one believes that the book terminology is anything other than a convenient framework to discuss dhammas together with. And yes, someone who is quite unfamiliar with Buddhist terms etc may well recognise more obvious wrong practises...... .... > Here's where we differ. I think people outside the Buddha's > dispensation can develop a fairly sophisticated, deep understanding > of anatta -- much deeper than many who can talk for hours and hours > using the proper Buddhist terminology to describe this characteristic > of reality. ... S: Yes, it is where we differ. Forget about those who 'talk for hours and hours....' who may or may not have any understanding of namas and rupas. But definitely, as I read the texts and according to any little understanding there is now of namas and rupas, I think it's quite impossible to develop any 'sophisticated, deep understanding of anatta' for anyone who hasn't heard about dhammas as such (in any kind of language). Of course, some people need to hear a lot more than others. I'm curious, Dan. I've given you various references before which I don't think you've responded to. Do you think they are wrong? For example, do you disagree with the following from 'Dispeller' which I've given in more detail before? "For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened One only." ... >I don't believe insight can be developed to a sufficient > depth to constititute liberation or enlightenment, but it is still > POSSIBLE for a non-Buddhist to develop insight to a depth beyond what > 99.9999% of Buddhists will develop. At the deepest levels, though, > the Buddhist conceptual framework is required if enlightenment is to > be attained. ... S: I wouldn't be concerned about 99.9999% Buddhists -- I don't think it's helpful. I've also given lots of references to the value of pariyatti, to careful listening, considering and so on, in other words to the value of a conceptual framework. I quoted a sutta from AN on this the other day. If there was no point in listening, reading and reflecting on dhammas or if it wasn't necessary for satipatthana to begin to develop, the Buddha wouldn't have taught at such length. In the end, it just comes down to what can be tested out and proved at this moment. Any framework is only for the present understanding of dhammas, not for the sake of gathering a more and more refined framework. [*Phil, I asked K.Sujin once why she gave so much detail in some of the Foundation Bulletins, for example. Like on the 'anusaya'. She said it was because people argue over the points and details:). Also, you were speculating about why she doesn't give so many sutta references in the English discussions. It's partly because they are very informal and often 'on the road' whereas the Thai lectures or sessions are more formal. The references are all there, but we need to find them ourselves:). For example, she often talks about the value of just understanding a few words or even one word like 'dhamma' rather than just memorising at length for the sake of collecting lots and lots of detail. This was the essence of the AN sutta I quoted the other day. Or when she mentions the 'curtain of ignorance' or only knowing someone's wisdom by questioning over a long time -- it's all in the texts. I'm always coming across textual references relating to comments she's made. On the pariyatti point you referred to on a tape where I mentioned the present doubt or frustration and then she added a comment about considering all the 'subtle process cittas' as anatta -- both are correct and 'complete' answers:) No rule of how one should reflect or what awareness should be aware of at any given time. Otherwise, we may have the idea that we should think or be aware in a certain way or of a certain object again. Another time there may be wise reflection at that moment on the great knowledge of the Buddha who directly penetrated all these dhammas himself. I've heard KS herself give many, many different answers] ... > This is just an introduction. I'm running out of time to do any sort > of justice to these issues today, but they are important and I intend > to post more about them soon. > > I need to rush through the rest of your great post now but will > revisit later. ... S: Thanks for all your kind posts, Dan....I'm quite sure the key to the questions is the present development of satipatthana. You're also raising good issues with Nina and others. Metta, Sarah ===== 46606 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Tep: I agree with you that the most important thing is to get to the > real > dhamma regardless of what "language" (paramattha- or vohara- > sacca) we are using -- it doesn't matter whether we use a raft or a > boat > to go to the the other shore. > ------------------------- ... S: good. ... > > S: My question is whether in this context, the references to seclusion > and so on are to bodily or mental seclusion or both in your view? > > Tep: You quoted the Pali: 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii > pahitatto vihareyyanti'. I then used the Pali-text Society to get the > following meanings. > > Ekodi = eka + odi : of one attention, limited to one point > Eka = one alone > Vupakattha = withdrawn, drawn away (from), secluded > Appamatta = diligent, careful, heedful, vigilant, alert, zealous > Pahinati [pa+hi, Sk. hinoti] to send > Pahita2 [pp. of pahinati] sent > pahit-atta "puts forth all his strength" > Viharati (p. 642) [vi+harati] to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn (in a > certain > place) > Viveka = detachment, loneliness, separation, seclusion; "singleness" > (of heart), discrimination (of thought) > > So the Pali phrase should mean: being alone and dwelling diligently, > one puts forth strong effort to be alert (mindful). Therefore, I believe > both > bodily and mental seclusion are required. > ------------------------------- S: thank you for the helpful research. You may be right here -- I'm not sure. As we've seen in other contexts, the deepest meaning of 'dwelling alone' and viveka refer to mental seclusion rather than bodily seclusion. So I wouldn't just assume it from the words like 'eka'-one alone. We all have to learn to live alone, regardless of our lifestyles. .... > S: Understanding that there are just dhammas appearing through the 6 > doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly known at this very moment when they > appear and by reflecting carefully on the meaning of these 6 > worlds, `atapi sampajanno satima' can arise and develop instantly, > being aware of one such dhamma at a time. > > Tep: I believe it is the reverse of what you said is what I understand : > i.e. > with constant practicing or development of sati-sampajanna and right > exertion, the monk becomes `atapi sampajanno satima', .... S: Remember that these refer to the mental factors of viriya, panna and sati which have to be developed as mundane path factors. There is no monk to ever become 'atapi sampajanno satima'. These are transient mental states only, but maybe I misunderstand you. ... > and the > consequence is what you said :"understanding that there are just > dhammas appearing through the 6 doors, the 6 worlds, to be directly > known at this very moment". That is the main difference or "disagreed > point" between us. I believe that understanding (samma-nana) follows > samma-samadhi, and samma-samadhi is supported by samma-sati > and samma-vayama (including the other path factors). Yours is the > opposite. Right? ... S: Without samma-ditthi or panna, samma-samadhi cannot develop. They support each other, along with the other path factors such as samma-sati, samma-vayama and samma-sankappa. Remember the suttas about right understanding being the forerunner like the dawn? Also the stress on samma-ditthi in your selected sutta of course. .... > S: Back to the other sutta you (Tep) quoted in brief, AN, 5s, > 73,'Dhamma-viharin Sutta'– Here too we have the learned bhikkhu > who `neglects seclusion...'. The Pali here for seclusion is `ekii > bhaava"n > vissajjeti',`lit: being alone, setting free', I think. Perhaps this also > refers > to the lack of direct awareness and understanding of `the seen' and so > on, the continued cherishing of craving as partner and hence the lack of > > freedom. > > Tep: Yes, you're right. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit > himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who > is > keen on thinking, not "one who dwells in the Dhamma". Thus, he does > not develop direct knowledge of the realities. ... S: Well put. .... > > S: B.Bodhi's note on this part of the sutta: > "It is interesting that in Text 98 [AN 5s,26, `Five Bases of > Liberation'] <..> > S: In other words, we're back to the important reminders about right > handling of the snake, rather than any suggestion, as I read it, that > one > should be in physical seclusion and far away from one's books, > teachers and so on. How does this sound to you? > > Tep: I am lost here, Sarah. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation so I > don't > understand the two cases. .... S: Sorry not to be clear. The point was just that in the earlier sutta which RobertK recently posted (5 kinds of Liberation), 'the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here (in the Dhamma-Viharin Sutta) he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.' So the stress is not on living in isolation or seclusion, but on the wise use of what is heard and studied. As I quoted from another AN sutta, 4s 186, recently: "even if he but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart." Again we're reading about pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha in these suttas. .... > Tep: I think we agree here in principle, but the detail of how we do it > may be different. ... S: Yes, I think so. There are always points to consider further. Another interesting one you've referred to quite often from the SS commentary. It relates to the 'internal tranquility of awareness' which you see as arising from samatha and you refer separately to 'vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa'. In the development of satipatthana, awareness has to be aware of namas and rupas. At such moments there is inner tranquillity of samatha arising. It is not separate from the development of vipassana. I've found a translation of what you've referred to here in 'Dispeller', 1045, under kaye kayaanupassi: "As regards aataapi ('ardent') and so on.Right Effort should be understood as stated by 'ardour'; the generally useful meditation subject or the means for the protection of the meditation subject, by 'mindfulness and clear comprehension'; or the tranquillity (patiladdha samatha)obtained by contemplation of the body [should be understood as stated] by 'mindfulness', and insight by 'clear comprehension'; and the fruit of development [should be understood as stated] by the 'putting away of covetousness and grief'." S: It's a difficult passage. In the conclusion of the whole section, it stresses that the different objects of satipatthana (i.e the four foundation objects) are 'obtained' at different moments. "For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body; by another feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects." In other words, the meditation object referred to in the context of satipatthana is to whatever nama or rupa appears. At moments of satipatthana, at least 5 path factors arise together, comprising those classified under panna, sila and samadhi. Right Awareness and Right Effort are grouped with Right Concentration under samadhi (concentration), but they have to arise with Right Understanding and Right Thinking (samma sankappa)too. There is the development of adhi (higher)sila, adhi citta and adhi panna at these moments. Adhi citta refers to higher concentration or tranquillity and it can only be developed through satipatthana and perfected by the anagami. It cannot be developed or perfected by samatha development or jhana attainment. Hmm - wasn't intending to open this can of worms:). I'll look forward to your comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 46607 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:54am Subject: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Dan & Tep, While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes for you both: For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: AN10:121 "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech....right action....right livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right deliverance springs up." ***** For Dan, from the commentary to the SammaaDi.t.thi Sutta: "Herein the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One withing the Dispensation is of right view on account of both." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= 46608 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:07pm Subject: Barren Spiritual Stagnation ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Obstructing Obstacles: There are 5 kinds of mental barrenness, that obstruct any mental growth and any spiritual progress. What are they ? 1: Skeptical doubt about the perfect Awakening of the Buddha is the first mental barrenness. 2: Skeptical doubt about the absolute Truth of the Dhamma is the second mental barrenness. 3: Skeptical doubt about the purity of the Noble Sangha is the third mental barrenness. 4: Skeptical doubt about the efficacy of the mental Training is the fourth mental barrenness. 5: Anger towards one's friends & fellows on the Noble Path is the fifth mental barrenness. These 5 kinds of mental barrenness disable all initiative, enthusiasm, energy, effort, exertion, and endurance and thus do they eliminate any effective training and thereby also all the advantageous effects of such mental training! Review the mind regularly recognizing these obstructions and cure them with faith, investigation, and friendliness. The Moderated Speeches by the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya [I 101] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46609 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > S: Yes, advantages and disadvantages in both, I find. If we do come your > way sometime, we won't need any entertaining btw -- we'll just be glad to > meet you:). Ook. I should be good for the occasion. Just keep me apprised of the situation. > .... > > > P.S. I replaced the picture in the section there (a few times). > >The current picture is a very recent one, > :) > ... > > > > Sarah, I didn't reply to the rest of this or the last post because I > > didn't think we'd get any meaningful discussion on it. I am open to > > discussing Abhidhamma in daily life again, both the subject and the > > book. Maybe you have an idea on how to proceed, after we get some > > initial concerns out of the wahy? > ... > S: We can proceed anytime, anyway you like. Some long-term thread or > series would be good, I think. However, you'd need to keep it going and do > some of the donkey work, as I always have a lot of threads being 'juggled' > in the air at anytime:). Any other initial concerns? Yes. All the problems we have had in the past. I am kind of not at my best lately, and while I could probably apply my intelligence to understanding different types of consciousness at an abstract level, I do not know that I'd be able to take a step back and communicate on the larger picture of things. For example, a few methods I might use to reach insight would be formal mindfulness meditation (of breathing, or the abdomen for sitting meditation, feet and legs for walking meditation, or any other activities or positions duing every day life) or re-begin the four elements meditation which starts off superficially but probably increasing in depth with time. Again I would like to state that if I go the length in sitting meditation, not only am I more sane, stable, and self-aware, but I think I have a better view on reality itself. I distinctly remember things seeming more real during my good meditation days, but now with the quality of my meditation having waned, and slowly beginning to engage in vain talk and lose concentration into sensuality, my view of it is less so. Eventually I may be trying to accumulate virtue / paramis as well. Just like you would do a loving-kindness meditation. I have to get myself in a state where I can be sort of a container for these virtues too, then, it may work. Of course, learning about citta and cetasika, other nama and rupa will still be part of my practise. Please let me know how you feel about my overall approach before we begin anything. > > I want to just pick up on one 'concern' you mentioned in another letter. > You said, with regard to your r'ship with your father: > > A:"It is more like I am scared to rectify the relationship to adjust to > the life I want to live, it's new territory. I already want for my > parents' welfare and do not want to harm them, (I do think about how life > is short for all of us)." > > S: This is very honest. We all have lots of fear and it's OK and normal. > Slowly rectify the r'ship, a little more each day and it'll work out well, > I'm sure. Your parents may never understand your interest in the Dhamma, > but that doesn't matter at all -- one can learn to respect the other's > path and they will respect yours when you live easily, skilfully and > naturally with that path. Yah I have to stay awake and aware to be decent to them, harmless, good, and to speak with non-aversion. I want for their welfare so much, yes I still don't act for its benefit correspondingly. I see it in other people, too, that they should be treated well by both themselves and others in life. Now if only I could turn this around into harmlessness and polite speech. Establishing my parents in morality is a task that I want to do but it is difficult and I myself am more crooked than I have been in times past, so first things first. > You also mentioned: > > A: "If wrong view has to be eradicated before we stop acting out of > akusala roots, then I can still use the computer even if it's out of > attachment." > > S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and other more > common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we > think attachment arises in. Fair enough, but don't you think there are /some/ circumstances where this is OK? Eg the monkhood are to avoid being in close proximity to the opposite sex in certain situations, and certainly the Buddha forbid his monks to only enter town for alms at times that the surroundings would be conducive to increasing sensual desire or frivolous talk. > That would be a kind of wrong view in itself > to think it's possible. At such moments there will be a strong clinging to > 'me' without attachment, not realising that it's arisen already. Live your > ordinary life, doing whatever you please and see that awareness can arise > and be aware of any conditioned dhamma, Al. If we say there is not as much > awareness as before and so on, again it shows the strong clinging to > having more awareness, more good, more good results and so on. Who for? > ME!! Well I have many little books from BPS in Sri Lanka and some of them prescribe certain modes of behavior to bring one in line with the Noble Eightfold Path. The one I can point you to most especially is Renunciation by T. Prince < http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/prince/ >. > > OK, end of my 'initial concerns':)). > I still wonder how talking on this group will affect my course, that is, my wanting to practise on the streets. Now that I am free to stay out later than 7:30pm, (its a medium length story.), I can practise outside at nights when I am ready, whether it's Sayadaw U Pandita's method, or the four foundations of mindfulness with knowledge of nama and rupa, including mental factors. Just have to get ready first. > Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? Well last time weren't we doing Abhidhamma in daily life using CMA heavily as a reference manual? I do know there is a lot of material in the later chapters of CMA that would be difficult for one to understand without consulting others. Perhaps we should start with that then. > > Ch1 either way: The distinction between namas and rupas. Any questions, > comments or confusion? When this is clear, the rest is all downhill imho. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Thanks, Sarah. Looking forward to discussing the dhamma with you for productive results. Regards, Andrew Levin 46610 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > > I'm very glad to see you posting again. I apologise for the delay in > responding to your earlier message addressed to me and others.> ....(snip)... > I'll pause here and you can help me to understand deeper what your concern > is if I've missed the boat. I haven't read your recent posts yet as I'm a > little behind, but just seeing your name reminded me to get back to you on > this one. I'd like to follow it through, but slowly. > ... Hallo Sarah, and all Yes, I'm posting again. But very carefully: not trying to convince anybody, not the lust of making provocation; just to make myself clear to myself: what I believe and what I don't belief (speaking conventionally on this moment) Thanks for your answer and no apologises for delay, because: what is time? Time is just expectations, time is what happens when nothing else happens. I had to be careful for another reason too, language makes very quick an objective impression, has easily a (implicit) ontological structure. When one for example states "there are just 5 khandhas", the word 'ARE' gives big philosophical problems (to me): where in the universe to they be? I can EXPERIENCE myself as "just 5 khandhas" (and I try to do) but that is something else than that that khandhas 'BE'. J:> the second vision [that I see a person as not just five khandhas but as a suffering being] denies the truth of anatta and anicca. S: Again, I don't believe this is correct. When there is compassion, for example, for a 'suffering being' there doesn't need to be any idea of a being actually existing or of permanence. Wrong views arise at different moments from the cittas accompanied by compassion and so on. I used to find this a difficult point too, so I understand. Let me know if you'd like more explanation. Joop (now): Explanation is not the good term (I have no need to be convinced, I refuse to see somebody else an an 'IT'). I like help in my formulating my till now vague ideas about the Middle Way (in the philosophical meaning). But you are already giving that help. J: - I think most (perhaps all) Suttas are meant soteriological and not > ontological, it can not be generalised from `This is not mine, this I > am not, this is not my self.' to `This is not yours, this you are are > not, this is not your self.' or to `This is not his, this he is not, > this is not his self.' Or do you have quotes from Suttas in that direction? S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these dhammas are 'universal truths'. Joop (now): I'm glad you formulate this so clear because now I can say that I don't agree with it. I know I (still) cling to an idea of MY self. But on the same moment I'm agnostic about the question if 'universal truths' do exist. But I have to reflect a longer time about this, especially how the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12:15) combined with 'A Cosmologist' (SN 12:48) had to be applied to the statement 'these dhammas are universal truths' My 'concern' ? That the social dimension of Abhidhamma - on the paramatthic level - is poorly developed. And that the way the soteriological truth of the anatta-doctrine has been made a ontological one is the reason for that stagnation. The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas (I realize that that's hard to proof) I define this 'social citta' as "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING". Of course you will say: we don't need this citta, that's no problem. Do I want to improve the Abhidhamma? No, I'm modest, I'm just formulating my subjective buddhist truth. "'A monk was sick with dysentery', records a passage in the Pali Canon, 'and lay fouled in his own urine and excrement.' Budha came to his lodging and asked why no one was taking care of him. 'The other monks don't care for me', he replied, 'because I do nothing for them.' Buddha and his attendent ananda washed the monk, lifted him up, and laid him on a bed. … Through intimately identifying himself with the sick monk, Buddha affirms the link between the questions that prompted his quest and thye awakening in which it culminated. Without birth, sickness, ageing, and death, there would be either awakening (bodhi) nor an awakened one (buddha). Awakening is only intelligible as the response to the diabolic contingency of the human condition…." Stephen Batchelor - Living with the devil, p135/136. Note that the Buddha did not say (and in my opinion even did not think) about the sick monk that he was just five khandhas; like nowhere in the Tipitaka the expression can be found (I guess): "This is not HIS, this HE is not, this is not HIS self." If you react again (whenever in the future) please connect this message of me with that about The Middle Ways (pural) in general in #46487 en 46588 (the difference is one typo). And that you react on my differentiation between soteriological and the ontological interpretation of the Teachings of the Buddha. Metta Joop 46611 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:47am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Sarah, Very quickly...with major snipping action. Understanding is gradually developed to a greater and greater depth. A conceptual framework that helps the digging go deeper helps. > frequently:). Also, no one believes that the book terminology is anything > other than a convenient framework to discuss dhammas together with. Are you sure? It often seems like it's viewed as a vehicle to condition satipatthana: "Here's how to develop understanding. First, there must be intellectual understanding. To develop intellectual understanding, read and speculate about what you read. Then, and only then, will any sort of understanding at all be developed." Just another version of desire to have a "do this, do that" instruction book for development. The big "I" creeping in again. > I'm curious, Dan. I've given you various references before which I don't > think you've responded to. Do you think they are wrong? For example, do > you disagree with the following from 'Dispeller' which I've given in more > detail before? > > "For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province > of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened One only." Doesn't "making known the characteristic" refer to development of understanding of the characteristic to a sufficient depth for full enlightenment? That's my reading, and I agree. But how deep is the current understanding of anatta? And aren't there other conceptual frameworks that can also help one to develop an understanding of anatta to that depth and beyond? I think the answer is 'yes' until the depth is close to enlightenment. Metta, Dan 46612 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Thanks! Well Dan, reflection as I understand , is something I have and sort of look in a new perspective and insight is like I know that I know but then I uncover it. e.g Reflection is in the past I have been angry and have justified the cause of my anger , but know I reflect that upon thought that will I behave the same way now after wisdom? e.g Insight is I know that everything is impermanent or anicca but I am not able to grasp it and then one fine day it dawns upon me that yes! everything is anicca. Correct me if I am wrong metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? <...> 46613 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discipline vvk63 Hi! I am Venky I found your experience Andrew very intensive. Hve you tried meditation or Vipasanna? Metta Venky lone_renunciant wrote: <...> >Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). <....> 46614 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:10am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] foamflowers Dear DSGers, During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending lectures, discussing issues between themselves and or having a talk with a teacher. But during that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed in a different way? I also read books have ruinded our memory (Okay I read to much) we no longer have to really understand something we just get a book and it already knows and remembers for use. I use my phone and computer to help me remember dates and times. But to understand something through theory has never been my strong point. I have to do it hands on to really know and understand. That's just me though I have seen many types of learning patterns. <==book worm With Metta, Lisa 46615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: A Sutta I Consider Valuable/ Thai Version buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - I enjoy a dhamma discussion with you as usual. S: As we've seen in other contexts, the deepest meaning of 'dwelling alone' and viveka refer to mental seclusion rather than bodily seclusion. So I wouldn't just assume it from the words like 'eka'-one alone. We all have to learn to live alone, regardless of our lifestyles. T: There is a post from Lisa that hits this issue with a sledge hammer. I am going to write a reply to her soon. This issue is not a serious one to me as I will explain to Lisa. --------------------------------- S: There is no monk to ever become 'atapi sampajanno satima'. These are transient mental states only, but maybe I misunderstand you. T: The five aggregates, all namas and rupas, are transient; whatever seems to exist right now ("the monk") is impermanent. ------------------------- S: Without samma-ditthi or panna, samma-samadhi cannot develop. They support each other, along with the other path factors such as samma-sati, samma-vayama and samma-sankappa. Remember the suttas about right understanding being the forerunner like the dawn? Also the stress on samma-ditthi in your selected sutta of course. T: Without samma-ditthi there is no guidance, no direction. Samma- ditthi and the other 6 path factors support samma-samadhi, according to several major suttas. But, beyond such a basic fact there is one more thing we must know. In MN 117 samma-samadhi supports samma-nana and, in turn, samma-vimutti. No suttas state that samma- nana is conditioned by samma-ditthi alone. Without samma-samadhi (described as the four rupa-jhanas in DN 22, for example) there is no samma-nana. I hope you are not confusing samma-ditthi with samma- nana, are you? -------------------------- S: Another interesting one you've referred to quite often from the SS commentary. It relates to the 'internal tranquility of awareness' which you see as arising from samatha and you refer separately to 'vipassana meditation on the ti-lakkhana of the nama and rupa'. In the development of satipatthana, awareness has to be aware of namas and rupas. At such moments there is inner tranquillity of samatha arising. It is not separate from the development of vipassana. T: Internal tranquillity of awareness of nama and rupa (not kasinas) is what I had in mind. No, I was not confused. Tranquillity as a factor of bojjhanga is supported by satipatthana. Tranquillity leads concentration. Sati & sampajanna coresponds to samatha & vipassana (see Comy in DN 22) that are yoked together, and are fully developed, when the eight path factors arise to support samma-nana [see MN 117 and MN 149]. S: In the conclusion of the whole section, it stresses that the different objects of satipatthana (i.e the four foundation objects) are 'obtained' at different moments. "For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body; by another feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects." T: To me the above passage means that only one object can be the present-moment object of samatha-vipassana meditation. S: In other words, the meditation object referred to in the context of satipatthana is to whatever nama or rupa appears. T: Yes. S: At moments of satipatthana, at least 5 path factors arise together, comprising those classified under panna, sila and samadhi. T: What do mean by 'at moments of satipatthana' ? What are the conditions that support those 'moments'? What is your sutta support for such statement? S: Right Awareness and Right Effort are grouped with Right Concentration under samadhi (concentration), but they have to arise with Right Understanding and Right Thinking (samma sankappa)too. T: MN 117 is the best source that describes the arisings of all path factors both sequentially and as a subset of three factors that are "revolving" together. Karuna, Tep P.S. the can of worms needs to be opened so that all bad worms will go away. If not, then we'll have to open the can again. ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > 46616 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - Thank you so much for drawing my attention to Bkikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 10, 121. S: > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > AN10:121 > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of > right intention, right speech....right action....right > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > deliverance springs up." > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. You should consult MN 117 too. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan & Tep, > > While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just > now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes > for you both: > 46617 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:20am Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 "The worldling", Sarah, is which one? The one who experiences a genuine kusala moment? Where is the view of self then? It does not then arise; it is not 'held'. Later, a wrong view of self again arises in the worldling, whether that worldling is "outside the dispensation" or "within the dispensation." A moment of satipatthana in one outside the dispensation may be reflected on thus: "'I' have no control over the arising of states or their characteristics." Later, a conceptual framework may be built that goes something like this: "A man's will is like a beast standing between two riders. If God rides, it wills and goes where God wills...If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan wills. Nor may it choose to which rider it will run, or which it will seek; but the riders themselves fight to decide who shall have and hold it." (Luther's statement of Augustine's conceptualization in "Bondage of the Will"). Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Dan & Tep, > > While I was looking at the sutta and commentary which Tep selected just > now (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta), I was just reminded of these relevant quotes > for you both: > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > AN10:121 > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of > right intention, right speech....right action....right > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right concentration. > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > deliverance springs up." > > ***** > For Dan, from the commentary to the SammaaDi.t.thi Sutta: > > "Herein the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and > one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who > believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as > one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the > truths, because he holds to the view of self. One withing the Dispensation > is of right view on account of both." 46618 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discipline lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, V V Kulkarni wrote: > Hi! > I am Venky > > I found your experience Andrew very intensive. Hve you tried meditation or Vipasanna? Hello, Venky. To answer your question, yes, I practise vipassana meditation. If you have any further questions, let me know. Regards, A.L. 46619 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand what you were saying. And the distinction you make between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I look at them too. I do think that many people would put "insight" into the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from reasoning). Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much sitting on a cushion with no development. Metta, Dan > Well Dan, reflection as I understand , is something I have and sort of look in a new perspective and insight is like I know that I know but then I uncover it. > > e.g Reflection is in the past I have been angry and have justified the cause of my anger , but know I reflect that upon thought that will I behave the same way now after wisdom? > > e.g Insight is I know that everything is impermanent or anicca but I am not able to grasp it and then one fine day it dawns upon me that yes! everything is anicca. > > Correct me if I am wrong > > metta > > Venky > > > > "Dan D." wrote: > Please to meet you, Venky. And welcome to the list. > > You write: "Cintamayapanna is wisdom by reflection or insight." Do you > see any distinction between "reflection" and "insight"? > > <...> 46620 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding > of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly > different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new > heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a > clearer picture of what I was talking about. > > ------------------------------------------------ > J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know > it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first > precept. > ----------------------------------------------- > > That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen > so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the > farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, > to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, > move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, > eventually, not even have my own kitchen. > > There is the obvious objection, "Who is going to do the dirty work? > Someone has to grow the crops and remove vermin from the restaurants > etc." The equally obvious answer has been, "There is no shortage of > people who are only too willing to do those jobs." > > I'm not sure that answer is entirely satisfactory. It hints at a them- > and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators > (for example) can't be as good as other people. But I think the > suttas tell us about hunters, soldiers and even an executioner who > attained the final goal. Are we to assume that they followed those > careers only before hearing the Dhamma? Even so, they must have had > extraordinary accumulations of sila and panna at the time. > > In at least one of those cases (quoted in Sarah's musings thread) the > hunters were the husband and sons of a sotapanna. Surely they > would have heard the Dhamma from her. If so, that would suggest they > were good Buddhists even while carrying on their 'wrong' livelihoods. > (I realise, BTW, they couldn't continue in wrong livelihood after > Stream-entry.) Hi Ken H (and all) Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in attachment, for what can one man do for another?" You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. What do you think? Best wishes Andrew T 46621 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Re: Jintamaya panna? philofillet Hi Dan, Venky and all > I do think that many people would put "insight" into > the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) > and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from > reasoning). I don't have time to post about this right now - or anything to add for that matter - but I just want to note that I'd put myself in with the people above - so I appreciate having a chance to reflect on it! Hopefully will remember to come back on it later. (Oops....I shouldn't say "hopefully." Oops I shouldn't say "shouldn't"...I should aaargghh. haha. Metta, Phil 46622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Lisa - I had no idea that by quoting just one paragraph from your selected sutta [II. 3.7. Mahaa -sakuludaayisutta.m (77) Advice to the wandering Ascetic Sakuludayi] in order to show my appreciation of your answer to my 'Quiz', I would be questioned back a whole lot like this! Lisa: the Forest Dwellers were not part of the monastic community they come in from the wild places to listen to the Teachings? They are renunciates? Could this also apply to a city dweller like me who isn't a Nun but listens to Buddha's teachings and reads the doctrine? Do you have to go to the forest to be a renunciate? Can't one practice renunciation anywhere because where ever you are? you cannot avoid what's going on in the head and body the body and mind are always there whether in the forest or in the city with company or without company. Can't the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytime or do you have to be physically secluded to do this? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? Why did you post this passage on the Forest Dwellers? Are they special in some way, different than the monks, nuns and lay followers who surrounded Gotama? etc. Tep: I only know why I posted that paragraph, Lisa. It is interesting to me because the Buddha also talked about seclusion in several other suttas. In your sutta the Buddha told Udayi that he should revere and honor those disciples for their seclusion -- i.e. not abiding "surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other faiths". It tells us that there are two types of bhikkhus : those who sought seclusion and those who did not. Maybe you can find some answers to your own questions from the following three suttas. 1. Seclusion and the Holy-life (Note: in another translation 'holy life' is replaced by 'moral life'.) "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? ... ... ... "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [the Teacher or the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... .... [AN VIII.2 Pañña Sutta] 2. Duties of a Recluse MN39, Mahaassapurasutta.m http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/039-mahaassapura-sutta-e1.htm 3. Patimokkha Sila, Calm, Jhana, Insight and Empty Dwelling Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 Nibbedhika (Pariyeya) Sutta Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr12no3/majjhima75-101.html > > Tep: > Hi, Lisa - > > I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly > about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". > > "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising > it,you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due > honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, > leaf huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. > They do not stay, with the community of bhikkhus. They come every > fortinight to recite the higher code of rules. I on the other hand > abide surrounded by bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay, disciples, male and > female. Surrounded by kings, ministers, and ascetics of other > faiths. Udayi, you should honour and revere my disciples, and > receive the due honour for it." > 46623 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:54pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for continuing our unfinished discussion -- hopefully, it is converging to a single-point conclusion. :->)) In the last message we were talking about special activities in the Satipatthana Sutta versus the "non-directed" contemplation. >T: The choice of dhatus as the object of >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > Jon: Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture is called for. As regards whether the Buddha is suggesting that dhatus can or should be *chosen*, I think we should not rule out the possibility of reflection occurring at times other than times we might designate as 'dhatu reflection' time. T: It does not fit any good purpose to "designate" a special time for dhatus reflection, Jon. Since the Great Teacher did not specify a "particular bodily action or posture" for the dhatus meditation, then it is up to us. -------------------------- Jon: But I do not see that as meaning that mundane samatha must be developed first (and separately) in order for the development of insight to begin. My understanding is that as insight is developed and is accumulated, so is the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment. T: When there is sati, there is also sampajanna. There is no sampajanna if there is no sati. When I contemplate on the arising and passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". Jon: ...the primary conditions for the arising of mindfulness (apart from our past accumulations of mindfulness) are hearing the teachings explained in a way that is suitable for us, reflecting on what has been learnt and understood, and appreciating the importance of the development of insight as the only way of escape from samsara (i.e., having a sense of urgency). T: Do you believe that the mindfulness that is conditioned by such "hearing the teachings", "reflecting.." and "appreciating..." is strong enough to be called samma-sati that can further condition "the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment"? [All the quoted words are yours.] >T: What is the object (or objects) of sati in this "while going, standing, > etc." case? Jon: ... the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa while walking, this would be something that is described in the section on the modes of deportment. T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Therefore, when you "reflect" on the dhatus with ardour, zeal, and > >exertion, it is a mental activity. How is it possible to do reflecting or > >contemplating as "non-activity"? The choice of dhatus as the object of > >sati means that this activity is "special" in its own way. > > > > > > Yes, reflection on the dhatus can be described as a kind of 'mental > activity'. But I'm not sure from your comments here whether you are > also agreeing with my observation that in the 'Reflection on the dhatus' > section of the Satipatthana Sutta no particular bodily action or posture > is called for. ]. 46624 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thank you (and Nina) for settling the question, "Do cetasikas, as well as cittas, experience an object?" ------------------------ S: > Yes. Atthasalini: "..the term `mind' (naama) is applied to mental properties, because `names' once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. `Matter' is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." ------------------------------------ When the Atthasalini analyses terms by giving a long list of explanations, it is often tempting to ask, "Well, which is it?" :-) I hope that doesn't sound too disrespectful. Obviously the fault is with me, not with the texts, but (for example) the explanation, "because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves," seems to add nothing. Wouldn't that apply equally to rupas? I am also mystified by, "`Matter' is that which changes its state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." But, again, that is due to my ignorance, not to any fault in the texts. ----------------------- S: > Back to Htoo's comment and the role of panna as forerunner in various suttas, let me add this quote from the Atthasalini too as clearly you've had some discussion on this point and I'd like to make it very clear. ----------------------- We didn't have much discussion on that, but I can see now that there was a lot we could have discussed. I can almost, but not quite, see the relevance in knowing which dhamma - citta or panna - is the forerunner and when. I can see that panna must run ahead of viriya and samadhi etc., but I'm not so sure about 'ahead of citta.' I suppose it will be more meaningful when, eventually, I study the Paccaya. The term 'transcendental phenomena' (lokuttara.m dhamma.m) is a new one to me. In the quote, it seems broad enough to include cittas and cetasikas of the *mundane* fivefold path. With that reading, panna would be the forerunner in moments of satipatthana, which, I think you agree, is the case. Ken H > Atthasalini, Analysis of Terms: > > "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, `the king has > arrived,' it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, > but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be > understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena > (pa.n.naasakusaladhammehi). But it may be said that consciousness has > arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba"ngama.m). For in worldly > phenomena consciousness (lokiya dhamma.m) is the chief, consciousness is > the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. > > In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, understanding > is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the > forerunner." > > 46625 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? / Paramattha dhamma buddhistmedi... Venerable Dhammanando - Thank you for going one step further to respond to my concern about the "ultimate realities" issue that is hidden behind 'saccato thetato'. Venerable Dhammanando: saccato thetato, leading to .....propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to .....sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. Tep: In the simplest possible way may I understand "sabhaava- possessing existents" as "beings" ? [Pali Text Society: Sabhava [sa+bhava] 1. state (of mind), nature, condition 2. character, disposition, behaviour 3. truth, reality, sincerity.] VD: ... according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. Tep: Do "things possessed of sabhaava" mean "beings with citta"? I don't understand why the commentaries assign the label 'paramattha dhammas' to them. VD: And so the most traditional of commentary-following Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Tep: What about most sutta-following, practical-minded Buddhist monks? What do they think of the paramattha dhammas in terms of practicality, or usefulness, for penetrating the Four Noble Truths? With appreciation and respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Thep, > > > I can see that it has nothing to do with > > "ultimate reality" (paramattha-dhamma). > > For modern academic buddhologists saccato thetato marks the > first stage in a doctrinal evolution that eventually culminates in > the notion of paramattha dhammas: > > saccato thetato, leading to ..... > propositions that are true in the highest sense, leading to ..... > sabhaava-possessing existents as the only real existents. > > They then voice various opinions on how much the later > conception was/was not implied by the earlier one. > > For commentary-following Theravaadins, on the other hand, > the difference is viewed as only one of phrasing, not > meaning. The only things that are real are things that exist > saccato thetato, and according to the .tiikaa to the Sutta > we have been considering, the only things that exist saccato > thetato are things possessed of sabhaava. To these things > the commentaries give the name paramattha dhammas. > > And so the most traditional of commentary-following > Theravaadins and the most radical of modern academic > scholars at least concur that there is *some sort of* > connection between the "saccato thetato" of the Suttas and > the "paramattha dhammas" of the commentaries. Their > disagreement only concerns the nature of this connection. > > Best wishes, > > Dhammanando 46626 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Oops, now that you mention it, I remember that you have already explained 'pajaanaati' in great detail. :-) Thanks for going over it again. --------------------------- S: I pointed out that the term, `pajaanaati' (which he was referring to) was given in the Vibhanga as a synonym for panna. Remember the analogies of the way that the child, the old woman and the money-changer view the coins for the ways in which sanna, citta and panna experience dhammas? Perhaps we can say `knows clearly'. ------------------------------ Does that prove, once and for all, that the Satipatthana Sutta is referring to dhammas, and not to concepts, when it says, "When he is walking, he knows, clearly, he is walking?" In other words, does pajaanaati always refer exclusively to dhammas, and does pajaanaa always refer exclusively to concepts? Or is it not so simple? ------------------------------------------------- S: > As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . ---------------------------------------------------- Yes, that is the understanding many of us have had for a long time. (Many others have understood the opposite.) But, to repeat my question, does the addition of "ati" in the word, pajaanaati settle the issue? Does 'pajaanaati' tell us that the particular (and not the general) sense of "going" is intended, or is it the other way around? In other words, "or does the right interpretation of "going" tell us that pajaanaati is referring to characteristics and not to ideas about walking?" Ken H 46627 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; still on about those ### termites! kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I was saying, in my dubious wisdom: ------------------ > > . . . if a house has termites its owner should have it > > fumigated - because that's what householders do. ......................... S: > I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. ------------------ Point taken. Normally I would be happy to leave it at that - it is, after all, a description of conditioned reality. But, for the sake of argument, let's consider the case where the householder, wishing to keep the precepts, leaves the termites where they are (even though they will completely destroy his house). I think he is like a meditator who, unwilling to know the dhammas that are arising now, tries to make other, more desirable, dhammas arise. A monk has no house. He wouldn't deliberately hurt a termite, and he wouldn't run the risk of accidentally hurting one - except while performing the basic necessities of a monk's life. But a householder is not a monk. He can't have his cake and eat it too: he has to look after his house wherever reasonably possible. -------------------------- S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't this just speculation about various situations, rather than any understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. --------------------------- Thanks for that sound advice, but I will continue. :-) Isn't my example of the householder like the example of the bombardier you discussed with KS? He was ordered to press the bomb-release button. I think my householder is in the same position. And isn't it theoretically possible to spray poisonous chemicals and lay poisonous baits, hoping that, miraculously, no termites will be hurt? Both he and the bombardier will have done what had to be done. The rest will be up to kamma and vipaka. Ken H 46628 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Supreme Stream of Essence ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Kinds of Sublime Quintessence: The cream of Teachings: The 4 Noble Truths & the 37 producers of Enlightenment. The cream of Recipients: The disciples capable of understanding & practicing these. The cream of Holy Lives: That lived while developing the Noble 8-fold Path. Source: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga by Sariputta... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46629 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 0:19am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 222 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Buddha, when he was still a bodhisatta, considered the satisfaction in life, the misery and also the escape therefrom. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Threes, Chapter XI, §101, Before): * "Before my enlightenment, monks, when I was yet but a Bodhisat, this occurred to me: What, I wonder, is the satisfaction in the world, what is the misery in the world, what is the escape therefrom? Then, monks, this occurred to me: That condition in the world owing to which pleasure arises, owing to which arises happiness,— that is the satisfaction in the world. That impermanence, that suffering, that changeability in the world,— that is the misery in the world. That restraint, that riddance of desire and passion in the world,— that is the escape therefrom…" * The “escape” can be realized through the development of insight. Right understanding of realities eventually leads to freedom from all akusala, to the end of all sorrow. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46630 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] No more lurking; still on about those ### termites! sarahprocter... Hi KenH, --- kenhowardau wrote: > S: > I'd prefer to say 'may have it fumigated - as most householders > would do'. Depends on conditions as usual. > ------------------ S: Just to elaborate a little more – a householder may, for example, go to some extra trouble like in Howard’s example before, to look at different options. I don’t intend to be the one reporting any more on stagnant ponds and mosquitoes to my management, for example, but will be sure to cover up more when I go down to Tai Chi if we continue in the same area when the problem recurs as it probably will. ..... > Point taken. Normally I would be happy to leave it at that - it is, > after all, a description of conditioned reality. But, for the sake > of argument, let's consider the case where the householder, wishing > to keep the precepts, leaves the termites where they are (even though > they will completely destroy his house). I think he is like a > meditator who, unwilling to know the dhammas that are arising now, > tries to make other, more desirable, dhammas arise. .... S:-/ Maybe a little unfair on the householder and the meditator?? All we can say is that how the householder will act will depend on his/her accumulations at the time when the pereceived problem arises. This may or may not be in accordance with intentions and speculations now. ..... > A monk has no house. He wouldn't deliberately hurt a termite, and he > wouldn't run the risk of accidentally hurting one - except while > performing the basic necessities of a monk's life. But a householder > is not a monk. He can't have his cake and eat it too: he has to look > after his house wherever reasonably possible. .... S: Even monks have duties to sweep and keep the temple accommodation clean, rules about not scattering rice grains and so on (if I recall correctly) presumably not to attract vermin. And yes, he will not deliberately hurt a termite. I'm sure all the same issues arise in the taking care of the temple which may be a large forest temple. In one flat we had, I seem to recall there were some termites in the wood under the bedroom window. We had it all removed and replaced (rather than treated) with a marble cover which like Howard’s example, was a rather expensive work-around, but seemed the simplest solution at the time. .... > S: K.Sujin would say 'another situation....'. In other words, isn't > this just speculation about various situations, rather than any > understanding of present conditioned dhammas now? How we act, what is > done, what intentions arise are conditioned in so many ways. Better > to just develop awareness and understanding, I think. > --------------------------- > > Thanks for that sound advice, but I will continue. :-) Isn't my > example of the householder like the example of the bombardier you > discussed with KS? ... S: Actually I didn’t discuss that example. I just heard it and quoted from the India 01 recordings. (I wasn’t on the trip). I did pass on some of Ken O’s questions about livelihood etc recently and used both sets of examples in the Musings. I can't say I find any of these issues to be problems as such -- there can be awareness anytime, whatever action one takes. The rest is just a set of concepts. .... >He was ordered to press the bomb-release button. I > think my householder is in the same position. And isn't it > theoretically possible to spray poisonous chemicals and lay poisonous > baits, hoping that, miraculously, no termites will be hurt? Both he > and the bombardier will have done what had to be done. The rest will > be up to kamma and vipaka. .... S: Yes, it all just depends on the cittas....it’ll be different for each of us when we spray the chemicals and different from moment to moment. As you say, it’ll depend on the kamma and vipaka of the termites at the time what the result will be. No rule or shoulds either way, as I see it!! How are we doing here? What do Steve, Chris and AndrewT think too? Any disagreements? Metta, Sarah ======= 46631 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Joop, Sarah and everyone, > > I had to be careful for another reason too, language makes very quick > an objective impression, has easily a (implicit) ontological > structure. > When one for example states "there are just 5 khandhas", the > word 'ARE' gives big philosophical problems (to me): where in the > universe to they be? I can EXPERIENCE myself as "just 5 khandhas" > (and I try to do) but that is something else than that that > khandhas 'BE'. > I couldn't agree more with Joop about language easily giving objective impressions. The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they understand it to mean. For me, khandas are categories. Categories are analytical tools, the building blocks of thought. Only to the extent that they are thought, do they exist. Categories are not experienced. Experience is always specific, never general. Categories are always general, never specific. There is no experience that properly is a member of any category. Categories are arbitrary. Categories are applied after experience. Categorisation is dependent on memory. It is clear to me that the Buddhism of the early Suttas is aimed at cessation, which includes a cessation of thinking. This requires a cessation of all categorising activity. It is also clear to me that later Buddhism does the exact opposite, namely it proliferates categorisation and thinking. When you stop thinking, it doesn't matter if there was a you in there who ceased thinking. With the cessation of thinking, there is no you who is not thinking. Not thinking is not an act. Thinking is. Pretty straightforward really, what do you reckon? Cheers Herman 46632 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi Evan, You make some good points and I follow any of your posts with interest. --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I would like to point out that the suttas do make it clear that a > particular lifestyle is better for developing satipatthana. .... S: Let me ask you (and anyone else) a question. When there is awareness of attachment, for example, is there any idea of 'forest' or 'bhikkhu' or 'city householder'? The same question applies to the understanding of other realities. ... >In many > suttas, when a bhikkhu attains nibbana, the following stock phrase is > used: > > "He in no long time entered and remained in the supreme goal of the holy > life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness." > > So they are right to go forth from home life into homelessness. ... S: Yes, it is certainly like 'heaven' compared to 'earth' and we should pay our respects to those who follow this course. Should everyone 'go forth' if they can and furthermore, live in solitude in a forest if they can? No, I don't think so. It was certainly not recommended for everyone by any means. For example, we read in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta (Bodhi transl): "Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline...he resorts to a secluded dwelling." The commentary elaborates: "What does the Buddha show by this? He shows the achievement of the requisites for living in the forest. For one who lacks these four requisites* does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as animals or forest wanderers. The deities residing in the forest would think, 'What is the use of living in the forest for such an evil bhikkhu?' They would make frightful sounds, strike him on the head with their hands, and make him flee. A bad reputation would also spread about concerning him: 'Such and such a bhikkhu, having entered the forest, did this and that evil deed.' But one who has achieved these four requisites succeeds in his forest life...." *4 requisites: Moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment. .... S: Is there restraint over what is seen and heard now? Is there sati and panna of dhammas arising now? Is there contentment with whatever dhamma is conditioned now? If not, why should they suddently arise in the forest? ..... > Also, it is said of the home life that it is "dusty" as is shown below - > in this case the Buddha's own thoughts while he was still a Boddhisatta > (MN36). > > "The household life is crowded, a dusty road. Life gone forth is the > open air. It isn't easy, living in a home, to lead the holy life that is > totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell." > > This stock phrase is also used to refer to a "householder or a > householder's son" as is MN38. ... S: Yes, there's no denying the dusty life of the householder. The 'holy life' refers to 'the entire dispensation comprised in the threefold training (moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom)'. 'It is perfectly purified because it is to be accomplished up to the last moment of consciousness, making it untainted by the taint of defilements even for a single day.'. No, it's not easy 'living in a home' and not easy for those who go forth now towards the end of the Buddha sasana. .... > As I see it, the Buddha makes it clear that the homeless life makes it > easier to lead the holy life. ... S: I'd like to ask again, easier for whom? For everyone or just for those who have the accumulations to do so? Metta, Sarah ====== 46633 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about following layperson's code of discipline sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I distinctly remember things seeming > more real during my good meditation days, but now with the quality of > my meditation having waned, and slowly beginning to engage in vain > talk and lose concentration into sensuality, my view of it is less so. ... S: I think the problem is the expectations again. When there are fewer expectations, it's easier to live happily with whatever is conditioned now. After all, we have no choice but to live with our presently arising accumulations or tendencies. Wishing they were another way at this moment or hankering after past 'good' days just leads to discouragement and unhappiness. You've mentioned a couple of times that your 'problems' only started after you became interested in Buddhism and started your meditation practice. I would suggest that when there's an idea that we can make a particular effort arise and bring about certain results, there's bound to be disappointment and difficulty when this doesn't happen. Effort and bhavana are anatta too. Pls ignore this comment if it's out of line. .... > Please let me know how you feel about my overall approach before we > begin anything. ... S: I see no problem with your approach -- whether you're reading, meditating or meeting your friend and having frivous talk at Dunkin' Donuts. The accumulations are conditioned at all these times and can never be changed by wishing or forcing. When there's understanding of dhammas, it is 'detached' from what is its object, whether that be 'good' or 'bad'. Wishing it another way is just more lobha. ... > Yah I have to stay awake and aware to be decent to them, harmless, > good, and to speak with non-aversion. I want for their welfare so > much, yes I still don't act for its benefit correspondingly. I see it > in other people, too, that they should be treated well by both > themselves and others in life. Now if only I could turn this around > into harmlessness and polite speech. Establishing my parents in > morality is a task that I want to do but it is difficult and I myself > am more crooked than I have been in times past, so first things first. ... S: Yes, I think first things are to develop more understanding and to see wrong views more and more for what they are. Don't be too tough on yourself -- few of us speak politely all the time. It's great that you are so concerned for your parents' welfare however and wish them very well. .... > > S: Yes, most certainly yes. The way to eradicate wrong view and > other more > > common kinds of attachment is not by avoiding any situations which we > > think attachment arises in. > > Fair enough, but don't you think there are /some/ circumstances where > this is OK? Eg the monkhood are to avoid being in close proximity to > the opposite sex in certain situations, and certainly the Buddha > forbid his monks to only enter town for alms at times that the > surroundings would be conducive to increasing sensual desire or > frivolous talk. ... S: The monks follow particular rules for the preservation of the Sangha and the teachings. We cannot avoid atttachment just by avoiding certain situations. What about now? ... > I still wonder how talking on this group will affect my course, that > is, my wanting to practise on the streets. Now that I am free to stay > out later than 7:30pm, (its a medium length story.), I can practise > outside at nights when I am ready, whether it's Sayadaw U Pandita's > method, or the four foundations of mindfulness with knowledge of nama > and rupa, including mental factors. Just have to get ready first. ... S: It sounds like you've passed a test with your 'keepers'. Well done! Hope things continue to improve. ... > > > Abhidhamma in daily life or in Daily Life or in CMA?? > > Well last time weren't we doing Abhidhamma in daily life using CMA > heavily as a reference manual? I do know there is a lot of material > in the later chapters of CMA that would be difficult for one to > understand without consulting others. Perhaps we should start with > that then. ... S: Anything you like. We could start from the back for a change if you like? I like the way you relate your study of dhammas to your daily activities and outings. yes, there is only nama and rupa whether you're at Dunkin' Donuts, out in the evening or at home with your parents. There can never be kusala all the time -- better to develop good understanding of any dhamma arising, rather than trying to create or 'force' special experiences which will lead to more and more difficulty as I see it. Sorry if I sound a bit 'over the top' or 'preachy' when I write, Al. I find our discussions useful and enjoy your reflections a lot. I also care a lot about your general well-being. Metta, Sarah ====== 46634 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is how you start over. First, you erase the completely irrelevant > subject heading and put a more appropriate one in its place. Then, ask a > question: ... S: Hmm....but did you read my other comments:-/? .... > > When ignorance experiences an object, it gets it wrong somehow. Isn't > that mistake what is the object of desire? ... S: Wrong view gets it wrong. Ignorance just doesn't know. Desire just desires. When wrong view arises, desire is there as well, desiring the same object which is experienced wrongly and ignorance is there not knowing that such 'perversion' is taking place. .... > > Do you desire paramattha dhammas, dhammas that are impermanent, painful, > and empty? Examples? ... S: Only desire desires, not you or me. Desire can desire anything -- concepts or realities (except lokuttara dhammas). Taste is a paramattha dhamma. Isn't there desire for certain tastes when we eat? ... > When you knowingly experience a paramattha dhamma, do you do so with > desire or aversion? ... S: If there is knowledge when paramattha dhammas are experienced, there is no desire or aversion at that moment. Afterwards, there may be desire or aversion, but then it's to the concept of that dhamma. That's my best effort in haste. Please feel free to disagree or clarify. Metta, Sarah ======== 46635 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Living Alone /Re: More on the value of listening, considering .. sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > You didn't speak too much about the temple itself. If there was an > arahant monk leading that Sri Lankan forest temple, do you think you > still would have left? ... S: Oooh....no idea:-/... ... >Granted, one can follow the Buddha's teachings > as a householder, but it is much more difficult (as the Buddha taught > and as you experienced upon your return home). It is a very nice > sutta though and it reminds people that living like a monk is no > guarantee for happiness. Happiness comes from defeating Mara who is > with us all the time- in the forest temple and in family home. ... S: I agree with your comments. Well expressed. In my case, I preferred to face difficulties, confident about the path of satipatthana, than to follow what I saw as the wrong path (for me) in a more tranquil setting. ....> > It was nice for you to share the sutta you believe best meets Tep's > requirements: <"..is neither too long nor too short, easy to > undertand, and yet contains the gist of the Buddhda's Teachings enough > for Stream-entry">. I have also picked a sutta, "The Great Lion's > Roar" DN8, which I will post about later as I am busy packing (getting > ready to move and travel). Take care. ... S: Good choice and I'll look forward to your post very much. Meanwhile, very best wishes for your move and trip back to the States. I'm sure you're ready for a good break from Egypt and school-life. Metta, Sarah ============ 46636 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Howard, Tep & all, Ven D: >attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane(MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) <..> ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..."< .... S: Tep asked about the use of paramattha in this context. I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think). Let me quote from the very first section of the text (Kathavatthu) in the meantime as it addresses the question of whether 'the person' is known 'in the sense of a real and ultimate Fact'(puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati). The following sections use these terms as well. ***** Kathaavatthu transl as 'Points of Controversy' by Shwe Zan Aung & Mrs Rhys Davids (PTS) .... The First Refutation, 1) The fivefold Affirmative Presentation. "Theravadin - Is 'the person' known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact? (puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati) Puggalavadin - Yes Th - Is the person known 'in the same way' as a real and ultimate fact is known? (Yo saccika.t.tho paramattho, tato so puggalo upalabbhati) P- Nay, that cannot truly be said. Th - Acknowledge your refutation: i) If the person be known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, then indeed, good sir, you should also say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact[is known]. (Ha~nci puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthena, tena vata re vattabbe yo saccika.t.tho paramattho, tato so puggalo upalabbhati saccika.t.thaparamatthenaa ti.) ii) That which you say here is wrong, namely, 1) that we ought to say, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact,' but 2) we ought not to say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. iii) If the latter statement 2) cannot be admitted, then indeed the former statement 1) should not be admitted. iv) In affirming the former statement 1), while v) denying the latter 2), you are wrong (micchaa)." ***** S:Here's another early section too: 3.From the Kathavatthu above,Bk1, 111, Derivatives: ..... "Theravadin - Is the concept of soul (puggala) derived from the corporeal qualities (Puggalo rupalabbhati saccika.t.tha paramatthenaati)? Puggalavadin- Yes . T: But has a soul also any or all of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Or is the concept of soul derived from feeling, from perception, from mental coefficients, from consciousness? P: Yes (to each aggregate in succession). T: Is any mental aggregate impermanent, conditioned? Does it happen through a cause? Is it liable to perish, to pass away, to become passionless, to cease, to change? P: Yes. T: But has soul also any of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.....¨ ..... [S:The same argument applies to table, chair, tree and so on....] ... S: Tep, I think you'll find the same meaning of paramattha and pa~n~natti expressed throughout the Suttanta in different terminology which, as we agreed, is not important. The ti-lakkahna refer just to the former: A short example of lines from a sutta which convey the same meaning to me as this last extract: SN1:76 (6) Does Not Decay: "What decays, what does not decay? ...... "The physical form (rupa) of mortals decays (jaarati), Their name and clan does not decay." Metta, Sarah ======= 46637 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:13am Subject: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hello all This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama. It can feel like a cold shower, Nina says - maybe we are not ready yet for that kind of understanding. "But it's the truth," Kh Sujin says. "It's the truth." I can feel her confidence when she says that, very infectious. (It's probably my favourite single moment of the 30 hours or so of talks I've listened to so far.) And I must say that it *did* feel like the truth to me the last couple of days, and more like a warm shower than a cold shower. Is this just another demonstration of something I have been well known for amoungst close friends and loved ones in the past - a tendency to keep a certain distance from loved ones even while I rhapsodize about helping strangers? Perhaps. But in any case I was grateful the last few days to be aware of my sad feelings as sad feelings, as nama. I didn't get swept up by the sadness of the story like I would have in the past. Grateful to the Buddha and my Dhamma friends for that. As for the Alzheimer's, it has me feeling grateful for mental clarity and makes me feel eager to continue to begin to eradicate unwholesome roots and cultivate wholesome roots. That may be fear doing the conditioning, but so be it. We know that akusala can condition kusala at times. Also this feels like a good way to feel gratitude to my mother, for developing the mind is probably the best use we can make of the body given to us by our parents and kamma and so on. Metta, Phil 46638 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Dear Phil - In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. ============================ Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! My unrequested advice to you, and I mean it very, very sincerely and emphatically, is to please spend as much time with your mother now while a degree of clarity remains in her, and permit yourself to love both your folks with all your heart and soul and to unmistakenly express your love to them. The Buddha said that what we owe to our parents is beyond measure. You will be very, very happy that you have not missed this opportunity to be with them and to show your love to them. I'm very sorry for the upset that this must cause for your folks and for yourself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46639 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? Katthavatthu Quote For Sarah abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Sayadaw Dhammanando, Nina and all How are you? Sarah wrote: "I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think)." The qoute can be found in the last sub-heading (21. saccika.t.thasabhaagaanuyoga) within Puggalakathaa. The exact Section number is 235. Mahaa Moggalipuuta Tissa Thera quoted the same Suttam passage under discussion. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Ven Dhammanando, Howard, Tep & all, Ven D: >attani ca, attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamaane(MN. i. 138; also cited in the Kathaavatthu's debate on the puggalavaada, Kvu. 68) <..> ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..."< .... S: Tep asked about the use of paramattha in this context. I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I think). Metta, Sarah ======= 46640 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth foamflowers Dear Phil, Knowing this truth it will be much easier to be very close to your Mom and Dad right now as you see things come and go. You'll know this pain will not last forever. Even knowing this on an intellectual level has helped me during some really tough times. We as a family went through this with my Mom's Father my Grandma Dorothy's Husband. With Metta, Lisa 46641 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: Is there any 'tool' ? dhammanando_... Dear Sarah, > I had trouble finding what Kvu. 68 refers to (Ven > Dhammanando, I'd be grateful for your help -- the numbering > I looked at is different, I think). Kvu. 68 is the page number of the PTS Pali text. It's on page 62, paragraph 242 in _Points of Controversy_. Best wishes, Dhammanando 46642 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Hi Lisa, Your post resonated with me. I would like to expand on it. I hope I don't ruin what you are saying in the process :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear DSGers, > > During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual > understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending lectures, > discussing issues between themselves and or having a talk with a teacher. But during > that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed > in a different way? > > I also read books have ruinded our memory (Okay I read to much) we no longer have > to really understand something we just get a book and it already knows and > remembers for use. I use my phone and computer to help me remember dates and > times. But to understand something through theory has never been my strong point. > I have to do it hands on to really know and understand. > > That's just me though I have seen many types of learning patterns. <==book worm > There are a number of different kinds of knowing. There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. Which leads me to "knowing how". This is procedural knowledge. Knowing that one holds on to a rope behind a moving boat in order to water ski is very very different to co-ordinating all the fine and gross muscles to end up gliding on top of the water. No amount of "knowing that" will lead to "knowing how". To learn to "know how" one must do it. Also, "knowing that" is not, in fact cannot be, a prerequisite for coming to "know how". (Knowing how is a prerequisite for knowing that) There is also a "knowing to". One may think themselves to be a very proficient water skier, whilst reading up on the latest trends in the sport for example, or having a few beers on the jetty, but a proficient water skier is only that while actually water skiing proficiently. Amongst all the acts that one is capable of doing, having learnt how to do them, we are doing only one or a few. Now to Buddhism. Buddhism is a "knowing to". It is how one lives. It is the ongoing act of doing those things that lead to cessation, thereby discarding those acts that lead to becoming. Many people convince themselves that they need to acquire more "knowing that" before they can "know how" or "know to". This is a complete inversion of the Buddha's program. The Buddha taught noone to read and write, to notate all that he ever said, to categorise and systematise his opus, to "know that". One can know everything the Buddha ever said, and be completely oblivious to how the search for "knowing that" is the craving for existence. The Buddha taught cessation of suffering. He taught "knowing how" by doing it, and once knowing how to do it "just do it!" There is no vicarious knowing how, no vicarious knowing to. One may well write a compendium full of "knowing that", but only after one is well established in knowing how and knowing to. And only if one ensures it doesn't get into the wrong hands :-) Cheers Herman 46643 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Sarah: "Desire can desire anything -- concepts or realities (except lokuttara dhammas). Taste is a paramattha dhamma. Isn't there desire for certain tastes when we eat?" Hi Sarah, Good question. What are we desiring when we desire a taste? It isn't the neutral feeling that arises with taste. It occurred to me today that satipatthana can't figure out what desire desires. That is a job for psychoanalysis. Larry 46644 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Phil, In a framework of daily life, that daily life is the reality of dukkha. In a framework where everything is only nama, that nama is the reality of dukkha. Whether it is daily life, or nama, the reality is the same. The Buddha taught the end of suffering. It is a highly unappealing message for those attached to daily life, or nama. I am truly sorry to hear about your mother. Kind Regards Herman 46645 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Review of Sections i - iii.. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the Anapanasati bhavana. This third treatise of 'The Path of Discrimination' is not easy to understand, partly because of the difficult material itself, partly because of the terseness, and partly because of the flow of the book presentation. The best we can do to make the material easier to understand is by providing more background Pali words (thanks to Han Tun) and by discussion (brainstorming). We can add more details to the treatise by referencing appropriate materials (e.g. commentaries and related suttas). As to the third difficulty, perhaps the flow may be easier to follow if we have some kind of a "word map". This map, which is presented below, shows the connectedness of the contents of the three sections, according to my understanding. Please let me know if you have some ideas for improvement, a criticism, or any thought. Section i consists of paragraphs 3 - 5. The 8 knowledges of imperfection (obstacles to concentration) and the 8 knowledges of aids to concentration are given in the paragraph 3. There are two groups of unities(ekatta), the first group that is shown in the paragraph 4 includes renunciation, non-ill-will, perception of light, non-distraction, definition-of-ideas, knowledge, gladness, and all profitable ideas. Paragraph 5 describes hindrances which block the outlets (equivalently, unities) for noble ones. Section ii consists of paragraphs 6 - 14. The 18 knowledges of concentration imperfections, that may arise (in momentary combinations) during a mindfulness of breathing which employs the 16 grounds, are given in these paragraphs. Section iii consists of paragraphs 15 - 182. The second group of unities is given along with the 13 knowledges of cleansing. There are 4 unities in this group (corresponding to the knowledges # 7 - #10): those consisting in establishing the will-to-relinquish a gift, the sign of serenity, the characteristics of fall (vaya lakkhana), and cessation. In these four instances cognizance arrived at unity enters into purification of the way (knowledge #11), is intensified in equanimity (knowledge #12), and is satisfied by knowledge (knowledge #13). It should be noted that the last 3 knowledges of cleansing are the common characteristics of any of the 4 jhanas, the four immaterial jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and the four ariya-maggas. Paragraphs 19 - 168 cover the jhanas through the maggas cases; they indicate that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful method for developing the ariya-maggas. The paragraphs 168 through 182 are a preview of the 32 knowledges in Anapanasati bhavana of Section iv. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Last week the post stopped at the middle of paragraph 174. This week > we complete the long Section iii which ends at paragraph #182. For the > next 7 days we should have a discussion on the 3 sections we have > studied so far, so that we may all have a clearer understanding of the > various knowledges (naana) to be gained by breathing meditation. > > The next presentation on Friday 17th will be Section iv 's introductory > paragraph #183 on the "thirty-two knowledges in mindful workers" > (who mindfully breathe in and breathe out by the 16 grounds: 16x2 = > 32 modes of naana). > > ( 174. continued...) > 46646 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Dan, Another thought which comes across is whether insight gained or acquired is permanent or is it anicca - impermanent. For Buddha it would have been convenient to "maintain" the insight gained as he was always with the Sangha or Sangha was with him but is it so with laity. Can you please reflect upon and throw some light! metta Venky "Dan D." wrote: Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand what you were saying. And the distinction you make between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I look at them too. I do think that many people would put "insight" into the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from reasoning). Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much sitting on a cushion with no development. <....> 46647 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:17pm Subject: The Monkey passing the Bananas ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Repeatedly Lost Opportunity: Having laid it out three ripe bananas to the monkeys, I was quite a baffled after seeing an adult macaque pass by them unnoticed, even though they were within reach and less than ½m away ... !!! Then it appeared to me: Oohh so is it indeed also with sentient beings in this world: They pass by the Buddha-Dhamma again and again, life after life, never picking it up, even though it is perfectly formulated, completely releasing, and safely saving one from all that is suffering... Even though this Dhamma leads to the Deathless state, beings miss the opportunity & flutter on in Samsara... Obsessed with empty and decaying constructions... It is said that teaching the Dhamma in these ages, where the average human life length is less than 100 years, is like drawing in water with a stick... Highly impermanent if not impossible ... Therefore: Thanks to that monkey for telling it to me so clearly: No more 'bananas', neither here nor there nor evermore.... It is time to let go of all the 'bananas'! It is time to go .... Let there be Peace ... Let there be Happiness ... Let there be Freedom ... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46648 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only kelvin_lwin Hi Tep and Lisa, http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm These five went accordingly to the Buddha and asked for the imposition of five rules on all members of the Sangha: (1) that monks should dwell all their lives in the forest, (2) that they should accept no invitations to meals, but live entirely on alms obtained by begging, (3) that they should wear only robes made of discarded rags and accept no robes from the laity, (4) that they should dwell at the foot of a tree and not under a roof, (5) that they should abstain completely from fish and flesh. The Buddha's reply was that those who felt so inclined could follow these rules - except that of sleeping under a tree during the rainy season - but he refused to make the rules obligatory. This refusal delighted Devadatta, who went about with his party, declaring that the Buddha was prone to luxury and abundance. He was believed by the foolish, and in spite of the Buddha's warning against the dire sin of causing schism in the Order, Devadatta informed Ananda of his intention of holding an uposatha meeting without the Buddha, and, having persuaded five hundred newly ordained monks from Vesáli to join him, he went out to Gayásísa. On this occasion he tried to imitate the Buddha, keeping two chief disciples beside him (DhA.i.122). Three suttas, the two Devadatta, and the Mahásáropama, were preached after this event. - kel 46649 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:45pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Herman, Howard, Lisa and all Thanks for your support. Though I didn't ask for sympathy, of course I appreciate it nonetheless. (Kind of like people saying that they don't want presents before a birthday party...) > Herman: In a framework of daily life, that daily life is the reality of > dukkha. In a framework where everything is only nama, that nama is the > reality of dukkha. Whether it is daily life, or nama, the reality is > the same. Well, there is no separating nama from daily life...nama and rupa are all the time. (One can call them khandas if one prefers.) > The Buddha taught the end of suffering. It is a highly unappealing > message for those attached to daily life, or nama. Yes, I sometimes forget that we have to seek deteachment not only from concepts but from the underlying realities as well. There is dukkha with the falling away of each citta. I only know that in theory, of course. Here is something from Kh Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" that kind of gets at the way I am feeling about feelings these days: "If sati can begin to be aware of the characteristic of citta or of feeling, supporting conditions are accumulated for being less forgetful of realities when we have indifferent feeling, happy feeling, bodily pleasant feeling, painful feeling or unhappy feeling. We may be sad, but instead of giving in to unhappy feeling, there can be sati which is aware of it and then it can be known as only feeling cetasika arising because of conditions. Thus we see that satipaììhåna is beneficial, that right understanding can relieve suffering when one is distressed and feels unhappy." Of course there is only thinking about satipatthana now, not real satipatthana, but even the former is helpful for me today. Just as reading that lovely sutta about the passing clouds, the feelings coming and going, would be. Metta, Phil 46650 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 223 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] The Abhidhamma teaches us in detail about all akusala dhammas. They are not listed just to be read and memorized, they are realities of daily life and they can be known as they are by being mindful of them. If we consider akusala dhammas when they appear and begin to be mindful of them, we will come to know also defilements which are more subtle. We will learn that behaviour and speech we thought to be agreeable and pleasant are often motivated by selfishness; this happens for example when we want to endear ourselves to others in the expectation of some gain or favour from them. Our actions and speech are more often motivated by akusala cittas than by kusala cittas. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn about many types of defilements which arise time and again in our daily life. We learn about our tendencies and inclinations to akusala which we did not know before. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46651 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Thank you for sharing your wise reflections and appreciation of ‘cold showers’ at this time with us. --- Philip wrote: > Here is something from Kh Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" that > kind of gets at the way I am feeling about feelings these days: > > "If sati can begin to be aware of the characteristic of citta or of > feeling, supporting conditions are accumulated for being less forgetful > of realities when we have indifferent feeling, happy feeling, bodily > pleasant feeling, painful feeling or unhappy feeling. We may be sad, > but instead of giving in to unhappy feeling, there can be sati which is > aware of it and then it can be known as only feeling cetasika arising > because of conditions. Thus we see that satipaììhåna is beneficial, > that right understanding can relieve suffering when one is distressed > and feels unhappy." <....> .... S: Yes, I’m also reminded of the eight winds which so often we’re carried away by: the winds of gain, loss, fame, disrepute, praise, blame, happiness and unhappiness. I recently quoted from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas and AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta)], about how “It is in adversities, ...that a person’s fortitude is to be known". Nina found it helpful, so let me repeat it: Isn't it true that we learn about courage at such times? “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness, <...> "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of Relatives, loss of wealth or the, misfortune of sickness,.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and and unhappiness. "He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......” ***** And from the Ratana Sutta, while I'm reflecting on winds: "Just as a city gate post fixed in the earth is not shaken by the winds from the four directions, even so, do I declare to be a good man he who thoroughly perceives the noble truths." ***** And finally the verses from wonderful sutta I think you have in mind when you refer to the passing clouds? From SN36:12, The Sky, Bodhi transl), which I also like to reflect on a lot: “Just as many diverse winds Blow back and forth across the sky, Easterly winds and westerly winds, Northerly winds and dustless winds, Sometimes cold, sometimes hot, Those that ares strong and others mild – Winds of many kinds that blow; (yathapi vata akase, vayanti vividha puthu; puratthima pacchima capi, uttara atha dakkhina. Saraja araja capi, sita unha ca ekada; adhimatta paritta ca, puthu vayanti maluta) So in this very body here Various kinds of feelings arise, Pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant. (Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya.) But when a bhikkhu who is ardent Does not neglect clear comprehension, Then that wise man fully understands Feelings in their entirety. (Yato ca bhikkhu atapi, sampajannam na rincati; tato so vedana sabba, parijanati pandito) Having fully understood feelings, He is taintless in this very life. Standing in the Dhamma, with the body’s breakup, The knowledge-master cannot be reckoned.” (So vedana parinnaya, ditthe dhamme anasavo; kayassa bheda dhammattho, sankhyam nopeti vedagu'ti.) ***** K.Sujin has also reminded me how those we meet in this life, become attached to and form bonds with, are like winds passing by. We are born just to see and hear and form more attachments and then in the next life, we start again, making new bonds with a new family and new friends. May we all learn to develop satipatthana while we have the chance and help those we care for and are so indebted to as best we can in our own ways. With metta and very best wishes to you and your family as you learn to live with the various winds in samsara. Sarah ======= 46652 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, ----------------- AT: > Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). ------------------ I am trying to describe the Middle Way - in which there are only conditioned dhammas - in terms of conventional reality - in which there are householders and termites. It can't be done, and it is getting me into all sorts of trouble. I don't know if it has gone as far as "evil thoughts" but you could be right. -------------------------------- AT: > Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in attachment, for what can one man do for another?" -------------------------------- I'm not sure how that is equivalent to what I'm doing. But I think I can see how Lohica's thought was evil. He was thinking there was no benefit from kusala and no harm from akusala. The right, non-evil, way of thinking would have been; "Having done so, he ought to declare it to someone else." What should Lohica have done then? Should he have *tried* to put his right understanding into practice (as if he had control over reality)? No, he should just have continued with his normal daily- life. That would have included formal Dhamma discussions and, because he was a worldling, there would have been a lot of attachment and wrong view involved. But, occasionally, he would have "declared the Dhamma to someone" within the [kusala] meaning of the sutta - because it would have been conditioned by his right understanding. ----------------------------------- AT: > You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. ----------------------------------- No, I am not saying we shouldn't behave in accordance with the Dhamma (and the precepts). I am saying we shouldn't *try* to behave in accordance with the Dhamma (in the sense of believing we have control). If, in an effort to keep the precepts, we make normal daily life impossible (in my example, we let our house be destroyed by termites) then . . .. Well, you know what I have been saying. I think it was a mistake to get into this. I should take Sarah's advice and learn about the dhammas that are arising now. That way, the answers become clear. Agonising over hypothetical situations is not the way. --------------------- AT: > The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. What do you think? ---------------------- As I said, my sins are not as bad as Lohica's because I believe the Dhamma should be taught to others, and I believe the precepts should be kept - scrupulously. But there is no control over dhammas - when we realise that, we will be on the road to "right" Dhamma discussion and "right" precept keeping. Ken H 46653 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context (Categories) sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Joop & all), --- Egbert wrote: > The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know > Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he > understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. > But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they > understand it to mean. > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> .... S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short sutta I think you'll appreciate: Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is misery. This is called misery. "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." Good to see you back! Metta, Sarah ======== 46654 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there any 'tool' ? Katthavatthu Quote For Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando & Suan. --- abhidhammika wrote: > "I had trouble finding what Kvu.68 refers to (Ven Dhammanando, I'd be > grateful for your help -- the numbering I looked at is different, I > think)." > > The qoute can be found in the last sub-heading (21. > saccika.t.thasabhaagaanuyoga) within Puggalakathaa. The exact > Section number is 235. Mahaa Moggalipuuta Tissa Thera quoted the > same Suttam passage under discussion. ... S: Thank you both for your help. I have the English and Pali passage now thanks to using both your messages. Good to read you, Suan. Metta, Sarah ===== 46655 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: Thanks for the feedback as usual. .... > S: > > > For Tep, BB quotes the following on the front page: > > > > AN10:121 > > > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of > the > > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > > wholesome states. ... S: Note that right view here is sammaadi.t.thi ... > > > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one > of > > right intention, right speech....right action....right > > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right > concentration. > > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > > deliverance springs up." .... S: Again right view is sammaa di.t.thi. Right knowledge is sammaa~naa.na.m .... > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon > > that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and > that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. ... S: I think I was just stressing that it is sammaditthi from than samma samadhi which is the forerunner or leader of the eightfold path factors. The development of the path leads to the various ~naa.nas and to englightenment. .... >You > should consult MN 117 too. ... S: Yes, it's the same. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first*. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." (see more under 'Mahaacataariisaka Sutta' in U.P.) *Nanamoli/Bodhi footnote: "Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." Anything further to discuss here? Metta, Sarah ======== 46656 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! sarahprocter... Hi Venky, --- V V Kulkarni wrote: > .V-. Thanks! for your response. I live in Mumbai with my parents, wife > Hema nad two kids- my daughter Vibha (12 yrs) and son Varun (8 yrs). > Well my family are habituated with rituals and I do not try to reason > out with them as I feel self realisation is the best realisation. I do > express my ideas when asked but I am happy that they have accepted what > I am now because especially my parents, who are orthodox , it was > difficult for me intially to explain the change in my lifestyle > pertaining to the rituals. ... S: I think your approach is very sensible and it sounds like a good family. .... > > Well the major change came to me when I did Vipasanna at Igatpuri Centre > of Shri.Goenka . It was 10 days residential course in Nov.'04 following > the Noble Eightfold Path of Sila , Samadhi and Panna . .... S: Many others here have also followed Shri Goenka courses too. .... > How do you understand the meaning of 'vipassana'? > The basic need was calming of the mind which is still bit difficult but > with regular meditation in the morning and evening , am able to maintain > the calmness for sometime. I understand by Vipasanna is to view things > in their dhamma nature e.g the dhamma of fire has been ,is and will be > to burn. It is the perceptions which create differences and differences > disturbs harmony . > > Well thats again my perception isn'i it? ... S: Thank you. A good definition. .... > Do you have a pic for the album too? > > I will scan and add it ... Still waiting....:) I'm very glad to read your discussions with others. Metta, Sarah ====== 46657 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I think the material is so difficult, largely because of the translation. I'd suggest shorter installments with as many of your comments from the Thai version as possible (these are easier to follow!!). I really hope there is a new and improved translation of this text with Pali terms inserted in my lifetime! A few brief comments: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > {Tep's note: The Thai version's for "his mindfulness has parallel turn- > over with whatever he guides his cognizance by" is: however the citta > is directed, his mindfulness always accompanies it in the same > direction.} .... S: I have no idea of the pali here - but the meaning of anupassana is something like following and being aware. So visible object is experienced in the sense door process and awareness arises, usually in the following mind door process, to be aware of that object. 'However the citta is directed', awareness follows. .... > 'Brought to very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa); there are four kinds of > bringing to very sameness: bringing to very sameness in the sense of > nonexcess(anativattana) of ideas arisen therein, bringing to very > sameness in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties, > bringing > to very sameness in the sense of effectiveness of appropriate energy, > bringing to very sameness owing to verisimilar abolition > (susamugghaatattaa) of defilements opposed thereto. ... S: this didn't mean much to me. I just checked 'susamaaraddhaa' in Buddhadatta dict and he gives 'thoroughly undertaken' So is it something like: 'thoroughly undertaken: there are four kinds of thorough undertaking: a)non-excess of dhammas(?), undertaking/restraint of the faculties, undertaking of right effort, undertaking by eradicating defilements ???? Really, I don't know....I think for these passages we need a new translation from the Pali or Thai. .... > > 'Very sameness' (susamam):[The pun on the word samma (same) > connecting it with sammati(pp. santo calmed) and here also with the > prefix sam (= con-), occurs a number of times in this work. See refs for > > 'same' in index.] There is sameness(samam) and very sameness. > > What is sameness? Ideas there arisen that are blameless and partake > of enlightenment: this is sameness. What is very sameness? The > supporting object for such ideas, namely, cessation, nibbana: this is > very sameness. This sameness and this very sameness are known, > seen, recognized, realized, sounded with understanding; tireless > energy is brought to bear(aaraddha), established (founded) > mindfulness is unremitting, the tranquillized body brings no trouble > (asaaraddho), concentrated cognizance is unified. Hence 'brought to > very sameness'(susamaaraddhaa) was said. ... S: Sorry, I'm quite lost. 'susamaahita'= pp well-grounded, well-restrained. I don't know if it's relevant. ... > > 175. 'Gradually brought to growth': <...> > {Tep's note: the Pali Text Society says that anu + pubba = following in > one's turn, successive, gradual, and 'paricita' = gathered, > accumulated, collected, increased. Hence, 'gradually brought to > growth' = successively accumulated (from the first to the last ground). > The Pali 'paricita' is translated as "ob-rom" in Thai, i.e. to train so > as to > establish a certain quality or ability.} ... S: yes, like gradual teachings, ... > {Tep's note: The Pali Text Society says that Damatha = taming, > subduing, mastery, restraint, control. Hence, attadamatha is self > control. However, for comparison purpose, the Thai version for this > term is " self training". The Thai word for 'direct knowledge' is > 'roo-ying' > (abhi = ying, nana = roo), and 'kamnod-roo' is 'full understanding'. > But 'kamnod' does not mean 'full', it means mindfully aware.} ... S: I like all your notes and research. We had 'taming' and damatha in a sutta which Jon and Nina discussed. See 'Taming' in U.P. ... > > 177. 'Buddha' (Enlightened One): he who is the Blessed One, who is > what he is of himself, without teacher in ideas not heard before, [Read > anaacariyako pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu.] who discovered > (abhisambujjhati) the actualities by himself, reached omniscient > knowledge therein and the powers and mastery. ... S: I remember we have this same Pali phrase repeated a lot in the Dhammacakkhapavattana (sp?) Sutta which we were reciting on the bus in India. ... S: Tep, I hope you don't mind my indicating some of the difficulties I have when I look at these extracts. I'm sure others must find the same, so maybe just a paragraph or two at a time might encourage others to join in more. Many thanks for all your work...I especially enjoy it when you help with the Pali terms and add comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 46658 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS sarahprocter... Hi Alice, You told me (off-list) that you were busy moving office and so it's difficult for you to shorten the extracts or introduce yourself. I hope we have a chance to get to know you better when you're more settled. Are you in England or Sri Lanka I wonder? Please tell us about the course you are sharing around and your interest in it. You asked a question at the end: A:> What do you understand of this: > "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." > When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads > from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor > takes away the life of the man. ... S: I agree with it. It's just how I see the danger of drink. It's habit forming and makes it more likely that all kinds of akusala (unwholesome deeds) will occur. Liquor really took away my father's life in this way. How about you? What are your comments? ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center > > www.mahindarama.com > > With Metta > Alice .... S: Have you been to this centre...please tell us about your contact. Metta, Sarah ======= 46659 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:30am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Kel (and Lisa) - I appreciate the important reference that you provided. It reminded me of the Middle Path view in the Buddha's first discourse to the five ascetics. It also showed how easy it was for even monks to jump to a seriously-wrong conclusion, despite hearing the dhamma directly from the Buddha. Thanks, Kel. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep and Lisa, > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm > > These five went accordingly to the Buddha and asked for the > imposition of five rules on all members of the Sangha: > > (1) that monks should dwell all their lives in the forest, > (2) that they should accept no invitations to meals, but live > entirely on alms obtained by begging, > (3) that they should wear only robes made of discarded rags and > accept no robes from the laity, > (4) that they should dwell at the foot of a tree and not under a > roof, > (5) that they should abstain completely from fish and flesh. > > The Buddha's reply was that those who felt so inclined could follow > these rules - except that of sleeping under a tree during the rainy > season - but he refused to make the rules obligatory. This refusal > delighted Devadatta, who went about with his party, declaring that > the Buddha was prone to luxury and abundance. He was believed by the > foolish, and in spite of the Buddha's warning against the dire sin > of causing schism in the Order, Devadatta informed Ananda of his > intention of holding an uposatha meeting without the Buddha, and, > having persuaded five hundred newly ordained monks from Vesáli to > join him, he went out to Gayásísa. On this occasion he tried to > imitate the Buddha, keeping two chief disciples beside him > (DhA.i.122). Three suttas, the two Devadatta, and the Mahásáropama, > were preached after this event. > > - kel 46660 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Herman, and all Thanks for your Sutta-quote. When I read this sutta (Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery) I do it in my soteriological way. (I think that's more or less the same as Howard many times calls the phenomenological way of reading texts): "... And what, bhikkhus, is my misery? The by me (Joop) this moment experienced form is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced feeling is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced perception is misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced volitional formations are misery; the by me (Joop) this moment experienced consciousness ismisery. This is called my misery. "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of my (Joop's) experienced misery? It is my craving that leads to my renewed existence, accompanied by my delight and my lust, seeking my delight here and there; that is, my craving for sensual pleasures, my craving for existence, my craving for extermination. This is called the root of my experienced misery." My message had many themes, I can imagine you have not (yet) reacted on all of them. I repeat the one that is for a DSG-discussion the most interesting in my eyes: The term 'The Middle Way is used in two (connected) ways in the Suttas: - as a behavior descriptive way; for example: avoiding the two extremes of sensual lust and self-torment (and livingaccording the Noble Eightfold Path); - as a philosophical principle; for example: transcending the duality annihilism vs eternalism, as explained by the Buddha in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' and in 'The Cosmologist'. I propose another example of the philosophical principle: On the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' ànd I see that person as 'a suffering being' (not a concept). To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The middle way is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment. Sarah, you already reacted on a part of this statement of me: Sarah: In truth, there are just 5 khandhas. Understanding this truth and the ignorance which keeps samsara spinning, leads to more compassion, not less as I see it. Joop: Now you are talking about 'just 5 khandhas' giving the illusions of 'me', not about those of the other (suffering) person. So to make the analysis of 'somebody suffering and me having compassion for that person' complete, we need the other part of the soteriological Middle-way-truth. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman (Joop & all), > > --- Egbert wrote: > > > The statement "there are just 5 khandas" is a prime example. I know > > Joop didn't make the statement, and he makes it clear that he > > understands it to mean something quite different to what it implies. > > But it is unclear from other posters who make the statement what they > > understand it to mean. > > > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> > .... > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > sutta I think you'll appreciate: > > Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) > > "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in > the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... > > "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; > perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is > misery. This is called misery. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads > to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight > here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for > existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." > > Good to see you back! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 46661 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only jwromeijn Hallo tep A little bit hidden in my message #46587 I put 'my' Sutta: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) Metta Joop 46662 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth onco111 Hi Phil, I'm sorry to hear about your mother's ill health. It must be very difficult for her (as well as for you and your father) to see such profound changes and have so little control over them. Just last night I was reading about Lou Gehrig's fight with ALS (a.k.a. "Lou Gehrig's disease"), a disease in which the nerves that control the muscles waste away until the person dies within a few years. The mind stays clear, but the body just stops working. Gehrig was one of the greatest Major League Baseball players in history, and he got the disease while he was still playing ball. After the diagnosis, the Yankees held a special "Lou Gehrig Appreciation Day". Lou stumbled up a microphone in front of crowd of 60,000+ in Yankee stadium and said: "Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about the bad break I got. Yet today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth." [Thunderous applause.] "I have been in ballparks for seventeen years and have never received anything but kindness and encouragement from you fans. Look at these grand men. Which of you wouldn't consider it the highlight of his career just to associate with them for even one day? Sure, I'm lucky...I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for. Thank you." I do wish you and your mother and father well in these tough times. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > > Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama. > It can feel like a cold shower, Nina says - maybe we are not ready > yet for that kind of understanding. "But it's the truth," Kh Sujin > says. "It's the truth." I can feel her confidence when she says > that, very infectious. (It's probably my favourite single moment of > the 30 hours or so of talks I've listened to so far.) And I must say > that it *did* feel like the truth to me the last couple of days, and > more like a warm shower than a cold shower. > > Is this just another demonstration of something I have been well > known for amoungst close friends and loved ones in the past - a > tendency to keep a certain distance from loved ones even while I > rhapsodize about helping strangers? Perhaps. But in any case I was > grateful the last few days to be aware of my sad feelings as sad > feelings, as nama. I didn't get swept up by the sadness of the story > like I would have in the past. Grateful to the Buddha and my Dhamma > friends for that. > > As for the Alzheimer's, it has me feeling grateful for mental > clarity and makes me feel eager to continue to begin to eradicate > unwholesome roots and cultivate wholesome roots. That may be fear > doing the conditioning, but so be it. We know that akusala can > condition kusala at times. > > Also this feels like a good way to feel gratitude to my mother, > for developing the mind is probably the best use we can make of the > body given to us by our parents and kamma and so on. > > Metta, > Phil 46663 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise Section iii - finishing up. buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - It was a pleasure to read your sincere and thoughtful comments on this presentation series. Yes indeed, Patisambhidamagga is very difficult. I have quietly complained to myself over the several years of study of this extremely important work originated by the Great Arahant Sariputta. My first study was the Thai translation (with no commentaries) and many times I thought the Thai translator had not done a good job. Lately I bought the English version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and carefully linked the Thai version to the English verson word by word, sentence by sentence. Then I began to appreciate the Thai version more than before. The more Pali words added by Han Tun from his original Pali text of the Patisambhidamagga book are like magic ingredients that make good foods taste great. Now, I am putting the three components (Thai, English and Pali) together, like assembling three legs to the top to make my "tripod of understanding" complete. > S: Tep, I hope you don't mind my indicating some of the difficulties I > have when I look at these extracts. I'm sure others must find the same, so maybe just a paragraph or two at a time might encourage others to join in more. > Tep: Comments and suggestions for improvement from studious members like you will make this series 10 tiimes better. Thank you a whole lot, Sarah. >S: Many thanks for all your work...I especially enjoy it when you help with the Pali terms and add comments. > Tep: You're warmly welcome! I'll try to do research of this kind as much as necessary. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I think the material is so difficult, largely because of the translation. > I'd suggest shorter installments with as many of your comments from the Thai version as possible (these are easier to follow!!). I really hope > there is a new and improved translation of this text with Pali terms > inserted in my lifetime! > > A few brief comments: > 46664 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? onco111 Great question, Venky. There is no Self that "gains" an insight and no Self in which to store it once it arises. It simply arises and passes away in a moment. However, there will be memory of insight. The memory may be very weak. It might not even strong enough to evoke conceptualization about it or a description of it -- beneath the radar, so to speak. Or the insight may be so strong and so deep as to eradicate all tendency for future defilements. In that case too, the moment of insight is gone in a flash, but its effect is strong enough that all future consciousness is affected because there are no longer any conditions for taints to arise. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, V V Kulkarni wrote: > Dan, > Another thought which comes across is whether insight gained or acquired is permanent or is it anicca - impermanent. For Buddha it would have been convenient to "maintain" the insight gained as he was always with the Sangha or Sangha was with him but is it so with laity. > > Can you please reflect upon and throw some light! > > metta > > Venky > > "Dan D." wrote: > Venky, there's no 'correction' to make; I just wanted to understand > what you were saying. And the distinction you make > between "reflection" and "insight" sound pretty close to the way I > look at them too. > > I do think that many people would put "insight" into > the "bhavanamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from direct experience) > and "reflection" into the "cintamayapañña" boat (wisdom derived from > reasoning). > > Mr. Goenka makes the distinction in the same way, although he has a > different idea of what "bhavana" means (meditation) than many dsg > folk (development). There is a distinction, namely, there can > be "development" without sitting on a cushion, and there may be much > sitting on a cushion with no development. > <....> 46665 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 6/16/05 8:49:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwromeijn@... writes: (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) =================== Not for me! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46666 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Howard among many other members..)- You were right that I did not notice your sutta answer to the "Quiz question" because it was "hidden" in the message #46587. Joop (message #46587) : I thought: the Middle Way principle and Abhidhamma don't fit together very good, because Abhidhamma (or the way it's used most times here) is very absolutistic: something is kusala or akusala, something is a concept or it's ultimate truth. Joop (in another message): "Rest the fact that on the same moment I see another person as 'only five heaps' and I see that person as 'a suffering being'. To say that only one of these two visions is correct, is too extreme. The first vision denies the first noble truth about dukkha; the second visions denies the truth of anatta and anicca. The middle way, a kind of balancing, is to say: both visions are relative correct at the same moment!" Tep: The balancing approach above does not work when the two views are both extreme : "Is there a self(atta)?" (eternalism) "Is there no self?"(annihilationism) [SN XLIV.10: Ananda SUtta] Whenever the balanced answer does not make sense, we need to look for a right view that does not depend on the wrong extreme views. Tep: Seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view -- it is a right view based on non-detachment of the five aggregates, seeing them individually or as the "heap" as anatta. To see that person who is suffering right now as 'a suffering being' and be kind enough to offer helps is a right view (clearly understanding a kusala dhamma) that must be supported by detachment (no clinging) in the sense that the being who exists now is not the same before or after this moment (impermanence implies not-self, and hence should not be your object of clinging). Joop: Another meaning of the term "Middle Way" is of a philosophical kind. It's the way I used the term in my message. It's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes. The extremes of The annihilationist view and the eternalist view in the most important (I think) example of it: Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ... ... This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra). Tep: I like the term "trancending the dichotomy of the extremes" and agree with your sutta choice which defines the middle path as right view ["Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle"]. Thanks. On the other hand, although my highly- respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo tep > > A little bit hidden in my message #46587 I put 'my' Sutta: > > Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of > Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > (snipped) > > This is the Sutta I put forwards in the quizz of Tep about the > favourite Sutta (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm > afraid: The Heart Sutra) > > Metta > > Joop 46667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I wrote another post about this, explaining that I found your remark useful. You may not have gotten it. I also went away. I copy it: There is a reason when it is not clear in the English translation. knowing knows, feeling feels, it feels. Very deep. There is no person who knows and feels. Nina. op 09-06-2005 13:34 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I'm just kidding around! I simply find the > sort of language use that adds nothing to one's understanding a bit amusing. > It occurs noticeably, it seems, in the Abhidhamma and in the commentaries in > particular. (But the Buddha himself on occasion in the suttas said such things > as, to paraphrase, "knowing knows, and that is why it is called knowing" (with > regard to vi~n~nana). 46668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. nilovg Hi Tep and Sarah, Tep: As soon as I have time I shall answer your interesting points I discussed with Lodewijk when we were away and give you the quiz sutta. Sarah: some years ago Num posted about this subject as it was treated at the Foundation and I also added some of my Thai commentary. Also about the mindful workers that is coming up soon. This was shortly before Num left the list. In what way can I google this up? Under the name Num? Thank you, Nina. op 16-06-2005 07:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the > Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have > learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section > iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the > Anapanasati bhavana. 46669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil, Being just back I read your post. I really appreciate your attitude. Also the part about gratitude towards your mother. op 15-06-2005 15:13 schreef Philip op philco777@...: Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama..... And when we are near to that person the situation changes again. We have to think how to act that there is little time for worry. So nama changes from moment to moment. What helps me when I am sad or have a problem or worry is the well known quote from Vis. what is part of the Mahaaniddesa. Visuddhimagga, XX, 72: Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by... No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky...> Nina. 46670 From: "balancing_life" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 : THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS balancing_life Hi Sarah & EveryOne Here Well, i have just settled into the new office on Monday, but as Admin & Purchasing Manager, i have lots of work to do, ie, my job is to make sure the office runs smoothly, without a hitch or when hitches comes, then it's my job to find solutions to the problems. We moved 2 levels of offices from 9 am to 8 pm on Sunday, then on Monday, after getting the telephone keyphone system to install all the new lines, extensions and also the internet, i went to the old office to supervise the cleaning of the 3 levels of offices and the removal of all the rubbish & debris. The reason that we have to move, is that we got a government status for our software firm, called the MSC or MultiSuperCorridor and one of their stipulations is that we have to have an office, either in CyberJaya, KL (Capital of Malaysia) or in their PDC (Penang Development Corporation) building or else they will retract our status. We had already opened an office in KL, but our staff are reluctant to work there, as it is quite far from anywhere, as it's very near to our KL International Airport. Then on Tuesday, i had to go over to the mainland (as i live in an island, called Penang or as foreignors would call it "Pearl of the Orient" - years ago) to terminate the Electricity of another of our office, as the landlord wanted to sell the building and we had to vacate it, as we had to hand back the keys to him by Wednesday. So, today is the only day, i had time to unpack my office stuff...we still do not have internet access, although it has been installed, but it has been installed in our server and only our software engineer or architect, would be able to map it out, to each of our desktops or laptops and currently, they are not free to do so. Changing office, consumes lots of time, time to pack, time to move, time to unpack and loads of other stuff like terminating the old telephone lines and other utilities, making new letterheads, making new rubber chops, making new printed envelopes, changing all our staff's calling/name cards, faxing or informing our suppliers/vendors and clients of our new office address, telephone numbers, fax number, etc...sighhhh. Worst of all, last time, it took me about 30 minutes to reach the office, but now it takes me about 45 minutes to one hour to do so (depending on the traffic jams), roughly to & fro office, it takes about 12 hours, as i leave home around 7.30 am and reach home, around 7.30 pm. Enough of my working woes for the moment, so i will start to answer your questions. When i registered my yahoo id, when they asked me whether i wanted it to be American English or British English, i chose British, cos we were taught British English at school,years & years ago, so after when i finished signing up, to my surprise, it ended up an UK address...lol. But this course that i am taking is from a Sri Lankan Temple, a temple i go to worship Buddha and also to seek solace there. U See, (i hope it doesn't offends anyone), since i was very young, i was very fortunate and always thought that those who seek religions (except for those Muslims who have no choice but to have Islam as a religion as we are an Islamic country) must be those who are in trouble or seeking solutions to their problems. I have had about more than 10 Bibles, given freely to me by friends, but i never went to their churches, although i did read the Bible as i am a voracious reader, laying my hands on anything interesting, due to my inquenchable quest for knowledge and i am very broad-minded. So, the question is how i got into Buddhism? (i am in about 30 Yahoo- Buddhism Groups). Very long story & too private & personal to tell, and nobody would even believe me. Well, guess that all my Good Karma has been used up and now is reaping my Bad Karma, is the reason i got into Buddhism...my life is in a terrible turmoil, rite now, and again it is too p&c, to tell you guys about it. How i got into 30 yahoo-buddhism groups...well, my brother's daughter committed suicide after a childish prank, played by her so called best friends at school...she was 12 (July 9th will be the 3rd anniversary of her death), when she jumped 8 floors down to her death and her head struck the railings of the metal, on the entrance of the car park of her apartment. The story is that, 2 of her best friends, lured her to the toilet and whilst she was there, another so called friend, put something which did not belong to her, into her school bag. When the teacher searched all bags, they found it in her school bag, and it seems that the teacher scolded her so loudly and so harshly that the whole school heard it...imagine that. After the incident, it seemed that she hid in the toilet until school was over and waited for her mum to fetch her and her sister back home...that very nite, after her dinner, and after watching a Chinese Serial Drama, she and her sis went into their room at about 9pm to sleep and suddenly, her sis noticed that she was not in their room and went into their mum's room to see whether she was there or not, but she could not be found and horor of horors found her lying face up, dead on the floor, after her mum remembered hearing a big thud,a few minutes before her younger daughter, came in to find her. Well, i felt very guilty conscious & depressed after that, as after her parents were divorced,i would on alternate weeks, send them to their grandpa's place and after having lunch and after some shopping in the supermarkets, i would quickly send them back home to their grandpa's home (their father would fetch them back on Sunday evenings) and then i would go back to my office and then start chatting on my yahoo messenger, icq messenger and msn messenger or surf the net, as i was and still am an internet addict...but eversince her death, i have uninstalled, all my chatting software. My regret was that i never took the time or trouble, to really got to know my nieces well, and if i had done so, maybe whenever they have problems or troubles, perhaps they would have given me a call or just call me up to chat with me...although, i just know bits & pieces about their schooling, tuition, etc...my niece was in an English Kindy, but when she reached the age of 7 for primary/standard one, she was enrolled in a Chinese (Mandarin) School and she had a hard time catching up, as i heard she told me or rather her sister told me she was at the bottom of her class, but when she reached standard/primary 3 (or 9 years old), she excelled and always got either in the top 3 or top 5, of the worst, top 10 of her class. When my ex-boss, who is still in contact with me, saw the drastic change in me,(i was a happy smiling happy-go-lucky sorta person) he sent me an url for buddhism_depression, and from there, i ventured into other groups and some other groups also invited me to join them...so now, i have nearly 18,000 buddhism yahoo messages, which i think i do not even have the time, to read in this lifetime. So, at that time, when i was so depressed that i was almost a zombie, that i was unable to work for 2 months, and during that time, i went to the Mahindarama Temple there, and went to join them for their daily Puja Prayers which started at 11.15 am, and as the monks there must finish their meals before 12 noon, as they are only allowed to eat only one main per day, but are allowed beverages of Milo, Horlicks, Ovaltine, Cereals or whatever that is donated by their devotees, for the rest of the day. FYI, they are not vegetarians like the Mahayanas, as they depend on the Dana, by their devotees and in one of the books, i read that Lord Buddha was not a vegetarian either, as he would go out with his alms bowls and eat whatever is given...in fact, if i am not mistaken, he forsaw that he would die from poisoned pork and in order not to offend this person who especially invited him for the feast...he ate it, eventhough he knew it would eventually cause his death. U see, whilst i was there at the Mahindarama Temple, whose motto is "Do Good & Be Good", they had a lot of free Buddhism books at their counters, where you can help yourself to them...so, i took many home, as i was not working and started reading the basics. In fact, when i first ventured into the temple, i did not even know Lord Buddha's real name nor his story nor even know what sadhu! sadhu! sadhu! meant when i gave donation, nor even know what Dana meant. In the Mahindarama Temple, they have a Bodhi tree which originally came from a sapling or seed of the original Bodhi where Lord Buddha gained Enlightenment and also in the temple, there is a special room where his real "relics" are kept, which also has been brought there from India. Sarah, i am sorry, but i have to stop here for now as it's nearly 12.00 am and i have to get up at 6.30 am the next morning to get ready for work, so i will answer the remainder of questions tomorrow. With Metta :} AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land Hi Alice, You told me (off-list) that you were busy moving office and so it's difficult for you to shorten the extracts or introduce yourself. I hope we have a chance to get to know you better when you're more settled. Are you in England or Sri Lanka I wonder? Please tell us about the course you are sharing around and your interest in it. <....> 46671 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth ksheri3 Hi Phil and Howard, I can say that Howard has the right view by spending time with your mom. For fact I lost my mom almost immediately after I went out into this world on my own thru the USN. I even predicted her death in a chit, formal naval request, in that my request for emergency leave was because "my mom's gonna die", which she did a wk. later. This is back in 1980-1 som please don't simpithize me, I understand. What I'm getting at is that the sense of loss you will suffer will be astounding so by all means spend as much time with her as possible. In the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha it speaks of the re-birth process and the the thoughts at the time of death. This is a strange situation since the physical death may take years however the psychological death will be manifested before your very eyes and in a slow methodical way, no less. Based on what I've read so far in the Sangaha I'd have to say that you should try to have her realize her happiest moments as best as possible, as best you can as the process deepens. The object being that you want her re-birth to be as pleasant as possible so you wouldn't want her to feel remorse or sorrow for things she did not do or mistakes she had made throughout life. Let those illusions pass as non-attachment. Best of luck. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > ============================ > Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I > want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! <....> 46672 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Good to see you back! Briefly (it's 3.30am here -up early!): --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sarah: some years ago Num posted about this subject as it was treated at > the > Foundation and I also added some of my Thai commentary. Also about the > mindful workers that is coming up soon. This was shortly before Num left > the > list. In what way can I google this up? Under the name Num? Thank you, ... S: Try these posts in U.P. under patisambhidha and Patisambhida Magga. I don't think the ones after these are relevant to yr queery. At the ends of the posts, if you follow the links, they should take you to others in the threads not saved. 14156, 14178, 15064, 16306, 17540 google - if you try this, I'd suggest 'Num dhammastudygroup'. Or in dhammastudygroup.org, try 'Num patisambhida' or patisambhidaa?? .... Metta, Sarah ======= 46673 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/16/05 12:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: On the other hand, although my highly- respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. ======================= No, no. I didn't make myself clear! I intended just the opposite. My reply to Joop included the following: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm afraid: The Heart Sutra) =================== Not for me! ;-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When I said "Not for me," I meant that, for me, the Heart Sutra is NOT out of the competition!! Actually, it is a Mahayana Sutta that I value very highly!! ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46674 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - Thank you for the clarification and sorry for my misunderstanding. Now I can look forward to hear more from Joop and you about the Heart Sutra (with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path). Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 6/16/05 12:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > On the other hand, although my highly- > respected friend Howard doesn't like it, I am still curious about your > thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the > Middle Path. > ======================= > No, no. I didn't make myself clear! I intended just the opposite. My > reply to Joop included the following: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > (I have another one but that's out of competion I'm > afraid: The Heart Sutra) > =================== > Not for me! ;-) > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > When I said "Not for me," I meant that, for me, the Heart Sutra is NOT > out of the competition!! Actually, it is a Mahayana Sutta that I value very > highly!! > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 46675 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:09pm Subject: Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (and Jon) - The last sentense of your message (#46655) you asked, "Anything further to discuss here? Yes, Sarah. One more thing to go before I can rest. >S: Yes, it's the same. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first*. And >how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as >wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." (see >more under 'Mahaacataariisaka Sutta' in U.P.) >*Nanamoli/Bodhi footnote: >"Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right >view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates >formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view >of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the >radical destruction of defilements." T: You only touched upon the first part of MN 117 (Mahacatarisaka Sutta), I believed. The missing parts from your discussion are the following. (I) Circling of three path factors - the non-sequential behavior: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. [ Tep: The circling, the non-sequential nature of the citta development , repeats for right speech, right action, and right livelihood. .] Tep: Beyond the eightfold path factors, there are two more factors for the Arahant, and they are built upon samma-samadhi . (II) ".... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". Tep: So, right view is not the same as right knowledge, which is developed only after one has right concentration that are supported by the previous 7 path factors. Then right release(samma-vimutti) in the Arahant is built upon right knowledge(samma-nana). I have no further discussion. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback as usual. > .... (snipped) > ... > S: Note that right view here is sammaadi.t.thi > ... > > > > > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one > > of > > > right intention, right speech....right action....right > > > livelihood.....right effort....right mindfulness.....right > > concentration. > > > For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up.....right > > > deliverance springs up." > .... > S: Again right view is sammaa di.t.thi. Right knowledge is sammaa~naa.na.m > .... > > > T: I got a feeling that you might have jumped to the conclusion too soon that sammaditthi is the same as samma-nana (right knowledge) and that sammaditthi alone drives all other path factor to perfection. > ... > S: I think I was just stressing that it is sammaditthi from than samma > samadhi which is the forerunner or leader of the eightfold path factors. > The development of the path leads to the various ~naa.nas and to > englightenment. > .... > >You should consult MN 117 too. > ... 46676 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,165, Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/16/05 2:35:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I wrote another post about this, explaining that I found your remark useful. You may not have gotten it. I also went away. I copy it: ======================== Thank you! Actually, I recall having seen your original post, but I think I had no further comment to make. I do appreciate your following up. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46677 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Andrew T, > > ----------------- > AT: > Aren't you having evil thoughts of the same species that > plagued Lohica and earned him a rebuke from the Buddha? See the > Lohicca Sutta DN 12 (Walshe p. 181). > ------------------ > > I am trying to describe the Middle Way - in which there are only > conditioned dhammas - in terms of conventional reality - in which > there are householders and termites. It can't be done, and it is > getting me into all sorts of trouble. I don't know if it has gone as > far as "evil thoughts" but you could be right. > > -------------------------------- > AT: > Lohica's evil thought was this: "Suppose an ascetic or Brahmin > were to discover some good doctrine, having done so, he ought not to > declare it to anyone else; for what can one man do for another? It > is just as if a man, having cut through an old fetter, were to make a > new one. I declare that such a thing is an evil deed rooted in > attachment, for what can one man do for another?" > -------------------------------- > > I'm not sure how that is equivalent to what I'm doing. But I think I > can see how Lohica's thought was evil. He was thinking there was no > benefit from kusala and no harm from akusala. The right, non-evil, > way of thinking would have been; "Having done so, he ought to declare > it to someone else." > > What should Lohica have done then? Should he have *tried* to put his > right understanding into practice (as if he had control over > reality)? No, he should just have continued with his normal daily- > life. That would have included formal Dhamma discussions and, because > he was a worldling, there would have been a lot of attachment and > wrong view involved. But, occasionally, he would have "declared the > Dhamma to someone" within the [kusala] meaning of the sutta - because > it would have been conditioned by his right understanding. > > ----------------------------------- > AT: > You seem to be saying the same thing as Lohica except > emphasising that trying to behave in accordance with the good > doctrine is bound to be rooted in ignorance. > ----------------------------------- > > No, I am not saying we shouldn't behave in accordance with the Dhamma > (and the precepts). I am saying we shouldn't *try* to behave in > accordance with the Dhamma (in the sense of believing we have > control). If, in an effort to keep the precepts, we make normal daily > life impossible (in my example, we let our house be destroyed by > termites) then . . .. Well, you know what I have been saying. > > I think it was a mistake to get into this. I should take Sarah's > advice and learn about the dhammas that are arising now. That way, > the answers become clear. Agonising over hypothetical situations is > not the way. > > --------------------- > AT: > The Buddha rebukes Lohica accusing him of having a heart full > of hatred and wrong view and destined for hell or animal rebirth. > > What do you think? > > ---------------------- > > As I said, my sins are not as bad as Lohica's because I believe the > Dhamma should be taught to others, and I believe the precepts should > be kept - scrupulously. But there is no control over dhammas - when > we realise that, we will be on the road to "right" Dhamma discussion > and "right" precept keeping. Ken H Quite nicely put. I had only penciled you into my "evil" book, but I think I might erase you now. Okay? (-: Best wishes Andrew T 46678 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers Hi Joop, hallo everyone... ==>Lisa cut out some of Joops post that was very nice but I don't want to post to much and the quotes I found from my old notes are about the "Middle Way." Joop: The term 'The Middle Way is used in two (connected) ways in the Suttas:- as a behavior descriptive way; for example: avoiding the two extremes of sensual lust and self-torment (and livingaccording the Noble Eightfold Path); - as a philosophical principle; for example: transcending the duality annihilism vs eternalism, as explained by the Buddha in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' and in 'The Cosmologist'. L: thought I knew what the middle way was...I looked at some of my old notes and found this. "There is a Middle Way (majjhima patipada) for the abandoning of greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), giving vision (cakkhukarani), giving knowledge (ñanakarani), which leads to tranquility (upasamaya), to direct knowledge (abhiññaya), to enlightenment (sambodhaya), to Nibbana (nibbanaya samvattati). And what is that Middle Way? It is just this Noble 8-Fold path (ariyo atthangiko maggo). (MN 1.1) "The Middle Way discovered by the Tathagata avoids both these extremes (self- mortification / pursue of sensual-pleasures), giving vision, giving knowledge, it leads to bliss, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. It is just this Noble 8- Fold path." (MN 3.231) "The Tathagata has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, to knowledge; leading to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." SN 4.331) My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of non-duality, gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you think what ever your thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped off....ouch....;) With Metta, Lisa 46679 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution foamflowers Dear Tep, I woud like to thank you and Sarah and the rest of the hardy DSG folks for reaching out and really trying to communicate with me. You are show the hardiness factor! I want to tell both of you again how much I am amazed by your knowing and understanding. I do not bow to the heap or to the thought but to the light in your hearts. With Metta, Lisa ........Kel I went to my favorite book when I read your post (hahahaha), I will post a comment on it in a minute. > > Hi, Kel (and Lisa) - > > I appreciate the important reference that you provided. It reminded me > of the Middle Path view in the Buddha's first discourse to the five > ascetics. It also showed how easy it was for even monks to jump to a > seriously-wrong conclusion, despite hearing the dhamma directly from > the Buddha. Thanks, Kel. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > 46680 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Lisa, > H: Your post resonated with me. I would like to expand on it. I hope I don't ruin what you are saying in the process :-) L: Sometimes I just don't know what to say to some things here on this board, so I don't say anything which can seem rude I am sure. Most of the time I stop commenting because I'm confused and I let go of it for a bit and wait to see if anything comes up. Most of the time nothing comes up and I just let it go and have to wait. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > Dear DSGers, During Gotama's time did people read books to develop an intellectual understanding of dhamma? I remember reading about people attending teacher. But during that time it was an oral tradition correct so intellectual understanding was developed in a different way? ^^^^^^^^^ I cut some of my scribble out of the above post.....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >H: There are a number of different kinds of knowing. > > There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a > very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire > knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. > L: Cut a little bit out but you don't scribble, you write very well and I kept my favorite parts, hope you don't mind. > > H: The Buddha taught cessation of suffering. He taught "knowing how" by > doing it, and once knowing how to do it "just do it!" There is no > vicarious knowing how, no vicarious knowing to. One may well write a > compendium full of "knowing that", but only after one is well > established in knowing how and knowing to. And only if one ensures it > doesn't get into the wrong hands :-) > > Cheers > > Herman L: Dear Herman, My mind hummed along a happy tune when I read your twist and turns on "knowing that" and "knowing how" I really like reading that kind of writing and I thought of some of my early study with a cool guy that is very intellectual and could right a with a philosophical twist too. I had to laugh at the heap that I call me as I ran for my book on Early Buddhist Theory on Knowledge.....;) I looked up knowledge in one of my reference books, "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge" by K.N. Jayatilleke. Well I must say that every civilization that I've read about has sooo many theories on knowledge, who knows it, how it is known, what it is and so on....wow Absolute, authoritative, cogitative, intuitive, higher, lower, three-fold, five-fold, more development and salvation, indirect, inductive and inferential as well, there is infinite, and insight and also the instrument of intuiting ultimate reality, now that looks interesting. 417....goes to that page[] Chapter IX "The Means and Limits of Knowledge." Let me see if I find anything that picks up the first interest I saw that stirred when I was going through the index ( I just love a well done index; don't you?). When Buddha lectured to the Kaalaamas and to Bhaddiya Licchavi, where he criticizes six ways of knowing based on authority or reason may turn out to be true or false, and he ends the lecture by stating that one should accept a proposition as true only when one has 'personal knowledge' (attanaa va jaaneyyaatha, I. II. 191) of it, taking into account the views of the wise of course. My question is if you're not wise how will you know wisdom when you met it in self or other? For me it doesn't hurt as badly as ignorance lol, that is wisdom when I see it does not bring the pain that ignorance does. (hahahah) Personal and direct knowledge is what attracted me to the teachings of Gotama, "Come and see for yourself." Gotama was not a closed fisted teacher and that is why I have stayed sitting as quietly as I can staying aware and mindful just incase Buddha decides to visit my town or even my heart. I would like to be able to see him like the guy in my favorite Sutta MN 77. But as soon as I go down the knowledge street I find the house of truth and there are many houses built from truth all of different shapes and sizes. The many theories of truth really do give me a headache... I think I will stick with knowledge for a moment and look at duality when I look at something even myself I see an object how can I truly know myself if I see me as an object. How can something be a subject and an object at the same time? There I am back to reality as being of itself and no other and having this knowledge of reality I get really mixed up! How can I have knowledge of reality and and also be the subject of that knowledge, which I've been told can never be known since it is never the object and I can't know the knower of the knowing (na jijnatervij~naataaram vijaaniiyaah). Logic and reason can be used to tell the truth or tell a lie but I know that truth on a relative level is always dependent on something else to be and can never be in and of itself and is not truth as it is. Well I guess I could go on writing about knowledge (and drift of into what truth is as well) for the rest of my life but I haveto build an excel file for my bosses billing system...formula's are so fun! And to think some people believe that mathmatical formulas can express reality as it isl....of course I may sound a bitter because math isn't my strong point...lol...I am very spatial...lol With metta, Lisa 46681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 183 - 194. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - We begin Section iv today; it is even longer than Section iii, but it is much better organized. Tep's Note: This new section consists of paragraphs 183 to 597; these are relatively short or very short paragraphs that deal with the four tetrads of the Anapanasati. Corresponding to each of the 16 grounds (4 grounds per tetrad), you will see analysis of the object of meditation (or contemplation), a brief description of establishment of mindfulness and training, a statement on excercise of sati and sampajanna, and combining the faculties(indriya). [Section iv] 183. What are the thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers? [Sutta Summary: 4 tetrads, 16 bases, 32 modes ] Here a bhikkhu , gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever midful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (1) Breathing long, he knows 'I breathe in long'; (2) or breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'. (3) Breathing in short, he knows 'I breathe in short'. (5) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in accquainted with the whole body [of breaths]' (6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out accquainted with the whole body [of breaths]'. (7) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the body formation', (8) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the body formation'. (9) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with happiness'; (10) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with happiness'. (11) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with pleasure'; (12) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with pleasure'. (13) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the cognizance formation'; (14) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the cognizance formation'. (15) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the cognizance formation'; (16) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the cognizance formation'. (17) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with cognizance'; (18) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with cognizance'. (19) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in gladdening cognizance'; (20) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out gladdening cognizance'. (21) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in concentrating cognizance'; (22) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out concentrating cognizance'. (23) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in liberating cognizance'; (24) He trains thus 'I shall breathe out liberating cognizance'. (25) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence'; (26) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence'. (27) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating fading away'; (28) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating fading away'. (29) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating cessation'; (30) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating cessation'. (31) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment'; (32) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment'. (Vin iii 70f; M iii 83; S v 311f; A v 111) * [Commentary on Introductory Paragraph] 184. 'Here': in this view, in this choice, in this preference, in this selection, in this True Idea, in this Discipline (vinaya), in this field of True Idea and Discipline, in this doctrine, in this Good Life, in this Master's Dispensation. Hence 'here' is said. 185. 'A bhikkhu': a bhikkhu is a magnanimous ordinary man or an Initiate or an Arahant who has reached the unassailable idea. 186. 'Forest': having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. 187. 'Root of a tree': where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or stands or sits or lies down. 188. 'Empty': unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness. 189. 'Place': dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave. 190. 'Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise': he is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. 191. 'Set his body erect': his body is erect, [firmly] placed , properly disposed. 192. 'Established mindfulness in front of him (parimukham satim upatthapetvaa)': 'pari' has the sense of embracing; 'mukham' (lit. mouth) has the sense of outlet; 'sati' (mindfulness) has the sense of establishment(foundation). Hence 'parimukham satim upatthapetvaa (established mindfulness in front of him)' is said. ['Has the sense of embracing' is in the sense of being embraced. What is embraced? The outlet(niyyaana). What outlet? Concentration based on mindfulness of breathing is itself the outlet, right up to the Arahant path. Hence, 'has the sense of outlet' is said. The meaning of 'outlet from the round of rebirths' is expressed by the meaning of the word 'mukha'(mouth) as foremost (front). 'Has the sense of establishing' is in the sense of individual essence. The meaning expressed by all these words is: Having made mindfulness an embraced outlet. But some say that 'has the sense of embracing' stands for 'embracing as the meaning of mindfulness', and that 'has the sense of outlet' stands for 'door of entry and exit as the meaning of in- breaths and out-breaths'. Then what is meant is: Having established mindfulness as the embraced outlet of the in-breaths and out-breaths' (PsA 30-1)] 193. 'Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out': he is a mindful worker in thirty-two aspects: (1) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in long, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. (2) When he knows unification of cognizance and non- distraction through breathing out long, ... (32) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing out contemplating relinquishiment, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. *** (i) <--- Tep's note: this corresponds to the first ground of Tetrad # 1. 194. How is it that (1) breathing in long, he knows 'I breathe in long', (2) breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'? [Analysis of Knowledge of the Object of Contemplation] 195. (a) He breathes in a long in-breath reckoned by extent. (b) He breathes out a long in-breath reckoned by extent. [... to be continued next Friday 6/23/05. Tep.] Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Up to this point in time we have read the three sections, i - iii, of the > Breathing Treatise. It is good to pause here, look back at what we have > learned, and try to understand the material well before starting Section > iv (the 32 kinds of knowledge in mindful workers) -- the core of the > Anapanasati bhavana. > 46682 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:28pm Subject: our program nilovg Hi Larry, I am ready for XIV, 166. The Tiika has only one sentence, but I want to add something and review the notion of being prompted. 167 is very long. Nina. 46683 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Vism.XIV,166 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 166. The remaining formations here should be understood as already stated under the profitable. For it is only the unprofitableness that differentiates them as bad. So these are the seventeen formations that should be understood to come into association with the first unprofitable consciousness (22). (23) And as with the first, so with the second (23), but here the difference is promptedness and inconstant [occurrence] of (xliii) stiffening and torpor. 46684 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 224 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Among the cetasikas which can accompany akusala cittas, there are three which are unwholesome roots, akusala hetus(1). These hetus are the foundation of the akusala citta. They are: attachment or greed, in Påli: lobha aversion or anger, in Påli: dosa ignorance, in Påli: moha Besides these roots there are other akusala cetasikas which can accompany akusala citta, and each of these has its own characteristic and function. There are twelve types of akusala cittas and they are classified according to their roots. They are: 8 types of citta rooted in attachment, lobha-múla-citta 2 types of citta rooted in aversion, dosa-múla-citta 2 types of citta rooted in ignorance, moha-múla-citta (2) The cittas rooted in attachment have ignorance, moha, and attachment, lobha, as their roots; the cittas rooted in aversion have moha and aversion, dosa, as their roots; the cittas rooted in moha have moha as their only root. There is ignorance with each akusala citta. *** 1) There are three akusala hetus and three sobhana (beautiful) hetus which are the opposites of the akusala hetus. A root or hetu is the foundation of the akusala citta or the sobhana citta, just as the roots are the foundation of a tree. ... 2) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4, 6 and 7. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46685 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Lisa, I’d like to join in your discussion of the excellent Mahaasakuludaayi Sutta, MN77, selected by Lisa. I’d also like to pick up on Tep’s quote and comment here: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I like the following part of the sutta when the Buddha spoke clearly > about the meaning of seclusion or "living alone". > > "Udayi, if I'm honoured and revered for seclusion and for praising it, > you should revere and honour my disciples and receive the due > honour for it. There are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, leaf > huts dwellers, forest jungle dwellers and jungle road dwellers. <...> .... S: I thought Lisa raised very good points and questions, especially the ones about the sky scrapers and trees and the qu:: ‘Can’t the clingy aggregates be viewed with renunciation in mind anywhere at anytie or do you have to be physically secluded to do this?’ :-)) Also I find it all a little easier to follow in the ~Naan.namoli/Bodhi translation. First, the Buddha asks Udayin which qualities he is respected, honoured and venerated for by his disciples. Udayin mentions (wrongly) that it is on account of a) eating little, b) being content with any robe, c) being content with any almsfood, d) being content with any resting place, e) being secluded and commending seclusion. The Buddha then goes through the list showing that they are not the reasons he is respected and so on (as Kel also pointed out in another passage on Devadatta), ending with the last one you quoted. Let me add it here in full: “Suppose, Udaayin, my disciples honoured, respected, revered, and venerated me, and lived in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me, with the thought: ‘The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion.’ Now there are disciples of mine who are forest dwellers, dwellers in remote resting places, who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Paatimokkha. But I sometimes live surrounded by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, by men and women, by other sectarians and their disciples. So if my disciples honoured me....with the thought: ‘The recluse Gotama is secluded and commends seclusion,’ then those disciples of mind who are forest dwellers....should not honour, respect, revere, and venerate me for this quality, nor should they live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me. “Thus, Udaayin, it is not because of these five qualities that my disciples honour, respect, revere, and venerate me, and live in dependence on me, honouring and respecting me.” ***** S: The last line is important. To stress, ‘it is not because of these five qualities...’. The Buddha then continues to give the five qualities on account of which he is respected and so on by his disciples, i.e: a) Higher virtue, b) Knowledge and vision, c) Higher wisdom, d) The Four Noble Truths, e) The way to develop wholesome states starting with the 4 foundations of mindfulness. Tep, you gave a good summary of these. So when the Buddha stresses that the path is one of seclusion (viveka) or learning to live alone and detached, it is usually to citta-viveka and upadhi-viveka that he is referring, rather than simply kaaya-viveka, which other teachers were praised and revered for. ..... > Lisa: >When I did my first retreats years ago > the patterns of colors became an individual color that would fill the whole > vision when eyes closed. That doesn't happen any more but I still see > the blossoms of color when I close my eyes to sleep or meditate. .... S: I’m not quite sure if this is related to a passage in the sutta? When the eyes are closed, there’s no visible object or colour appearing (if it’s dark). I’d suggest the blossoms of colour are like dreams – fantasies of the mind. I liked the advice of your teacher not to become attached to them. Best to let it go and not cling. Khandhasa.myutta 22:100, ‘The Leash’ (Bodhi transl): “Even the picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On’. <....> “Bhikkhus, I do not see any other order of living beings so diversified as those in the animal realm. Even those beings in the animal realm have been diversified by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than those beings in the animal realm.” <.....> “Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or tumeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling.....only perception...only volitional formations....only consciousness that he produces.” <....> ***** L: >Question: There are some words and passages I just don't > understand and at least one passage seems to go back to Gotama's > past, but I am not sure. Any of you want to go through this and help me > understand it better? .... S: I’d be very glad if you’d care to share the passages in question with us all here for further reflection. I hope Tep and others will also give their suggestions or comments too. Metta, Sarah ======== 46686 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 165 and Tiika sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Larry, I kept a few comments for your return. Just to say here how much I appreciate all the similes and descriptions for uddhacca (restlessness or agitation), such as: --- nina wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 165. Agitation. > ******* > Text Vis.: (xlii) 'Agitation' is agitatedness. > Thus, uddhacca itself is being agitated (uddhata), out of balance. <...> > Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of disquiet, like water whipped by > the > wind. <...> > Text Vis.: Its function is unsteadiness, like a flag or banner whipped > by > the wind. > ---------- <...> > Text Vis.: It is manifested as turmoil, like ashes flung by pelting with > stones. > --------- > N: Turmoil or disquiet (bhantatta) is explained by the Tiika as: in the > way > of reeling about. .... S: And we forget that while we're enjoying the walk through the trees or the sunset or the soothing music that such enjoyment is with 'disquiet'. It's quite different from the calm arising with moments of kusala when there's dana, sila or bhavana. .... <...> > N: Unwise attention (ayoniso manaasikaara) is the proximate cause of all > kinds of akusala. > The Tiika adds to mental disquiet (avuupasama) that the object (that is > experienced) has become the condition for disquiet. ... S: But a moment later, whilst enjoying the sunset or music, awareness can arise of visible object, sound or any reality appearing and then the citta is 'quiet' or calm. .... <...> > The strong similes that are used for the explanation of the nature of > uddhacca remind us of its danger. As we have seen, it is as unsteady as > water or a flag whipped by the wind, like ashes flung by pelting with > stones. It is turmoil in the way of reeling about. <...> > When one feels calm there may be subtle clinging to calm, and then there > is > uddhacca, agitation. There can be agitation with indifferent feeling. ... S: And here you say it. It's not a matter of trying to remove the disquiet or agitation of course, but when panna arises, the spotlight is on whatever appears and this may be the disquiet too. In appreciation for the work you both do. Metta, Sarah p.s I enjoyed the analysis of the terms related to uddhacca that Howard's comment prompted too:). ====== 46687 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Dan), These are difficult passages. I don't pretend to have any answers, but just a few comments for your consideration or feedback. --- nina wrote: > Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding > regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as > Dispeller > of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157). > This passage is about worldly wisdom, such as inventing a plough for the > benefit of people. It is kusala, one thinks of the wellbeing of others. > Someone invents useful things without having heard about it from someone > else. > ------ S: I mentioned these examples of worldly knowledge and spheres of work with K.Sujin and she suggested that they were given as metaphors....’like someone with worldly wisdom invents and so on......’ to differentiate between following another and reasoning on ones own. I don't think it's to suggest there is necessarily any panna involved in the spheres of science and so on, but to give the different kinds of work as examples for comparison. ..... > The Tiika then deals with kammasakata ñaa.na, ownership of kamma, and > other > aspects of deeper understanding. Understanding of the ownership of kamma > is > not merely intellectual understanding, it goes together with insight, > beginning with the first stage of tender insight. > ------- > Tiika: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of > ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². > As to the words, what is in conformity with truth (saccaanulomika), this > is > insight knowledge. > That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the > penetration of the truth. <...> > Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. > For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres > of > work and so on, which were explained above.** > Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour > beneficial to > beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, > namely nibbana. .... S: I think we can also refer to cinta maya panna and scca ~nana as firm reflection or reasoning, unshaken reasoning in conformity with the Truths. .... > ----------- > * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is > of > such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² > ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by > ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity>. > The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for > people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of > science, > etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is > wisdom in > behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, > namely: > understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. .... S: Yes, but I don’t think we should equate worldly wisdom with panna. Of course there can be panna at such times along with the kusala when one is concerned for others’ well-being. ..... > As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this > means > that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s > words > of instruction. > The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding > consisting > of reasoning (cinta-mayaa-paññaa). > But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. > And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two > kinds > of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. ... S: I take this to mean the particular reasoning and insight that arises without first hearing it from another. For us there may be cinta maya panna, but only if there has been suta maya panna, hearing from another first. Otherwise it doesn’t quite make sense. On your other post to Dan, #46546, briefly: 1. You referred again to Jotipala and sankharupekkha nana, but as I wrote in a Musings, we had long discussions on this in Bkk and K.Sujin had another understanding which made good sense to me. I know you'll find the recordings interesting when we eventually finish editing and download them. 2. On tender insight and so on. As you mentioned, of course there is thinking in between the arising of panna. When the insights are no longer ‘tender’, there is still thinking in between, but no doubt about it being thinking and understanding of it as nama. The wisdom is firm. We can take up any of these points in India if they are not clear or if there is any difference in understanding. I appreciated all the quotes in your messages and research and also Dan's comments and reflections too. Metta, Sarah ======= 46688 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, I think the passage which Lisa has quoted on the Middle Way being the Eightfold Path really says it all. --- Joop wrote: > S: I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue > to cling to other selves out there. When it's known that what we take > for self are these mere khandhas, it becomes evident that these > dhammas are 'universal truths'. > > Joop (now): I'm glad you formulate this so clear because now I can > say that I don't agree with it. I know I (still) cling to an idea of > MY self. But on the same moment I'm agnostic about the question > if 'universal truths' do exist. .... S: At moments of clinging to 'my' feelings, 'my' body and so on, it's true there can't be any understanding of khandhas or 'truths', because these are merely namas and rupas arising and passing away that don't belong to anyone. .... >But I have to reflect a longer time > about this, especially how the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12:15) > combined with 'A Cosmologist' (SN 12:48) had to be applied to the > statement 'these dhammas are universal truths' > > > My 'concern' ? That the social dimension of Abhidhamma - on the > paramatthic level - is poorly developed. And that the way the > soteriological truth of the anatta-doctrine has been made a > ontological one is the reason for that stagnation. > The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the > list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not > exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas (I realize that > that's hard to proof) .... S: I haven't seen any difference in any of them, but often factors are overlooked. For example, often there's a suggestion there are different cetasikas mentioned in the commentaries from the Dhammasangani, but I don't believe this is correct. (see U.P. 'Dhammasangani'). yes, there is more detail given in the commentaries than in the suttas, but that's the purpose of the commentaries - to elaborate as needed. It occurs in the suttas themselves when disciples elaborated on the Buddha's words for those who needed more. ... > I define this 'social citta' as "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, > AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING". ... S: To me this is a kind of thinking, often without words. There is the seeing of the visible object and then immediately the idea of another 'presence'. Even babies have such an idea very quickly, don't they? ... > Of course you will say: we don't need this citta, that's no problem. > Do I want to improve the Abhidhamma? No, I'm modest, I'm just > formulating my subjective buddhist truth. ... S: It's good to hear your reflections always, Joop. .... > Stephen Batchelor - Living with the devil, p135/136. Note that the > Buddha did not say (and in my opinion even did not think) about the > sick monk that he was just five khandhas; like nowhere in the > Tipitaka the expression can be found (I guess): "This is not HIS, > this HE is not, this is not HIS self." .... S: For the Buddha there was no question but that the sick monk was just five khandhas 'dukkha....in short are these five khandhas'. Understanding that what we take for a sick man are the various khandhas does not mean we don't help, assist and develop metta and compassion when there is an opportunity. The khandhas don't belong to any self at all. There is no 'me' or 'him'. .... > If you react again (whenever in the future) please connect this > message of me with that about The Middle Ways (pural) in general in > #46487 en 46588 (the difference is one typo). > And that you react on my differentiation between soteriological and > the ontological interpretation of the Teachings of the Buddha. .... S: Thank you for checking out U.P. on this area. In your other post, I didn't agree with Olendski's comments but thought yours were much better:). You wrote: 'it's not about a middle position between two extremes but about the way of transcending the dichotomy of the extremes.' So the middle way is the development of right understanding as I see it. So back to your great choice of sutta, Kaccayana gotta Sutta, it emphasises this right understanding/discernment. When it develops, the extreme views do not occur to one. Then we learn about conditions and dependent origination. No self or other selves involved. Did you also see "Kaccayanagotta' in U.P.? Any further comments or disagreements? Please keep pursuing your social concerns and other points. We all learn from them and I missed you when you took your break. Metta, Sarah ========= " 46689 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Joop, hallo everyone... > > ==>Lisa cut out some of Joops post that was very nice but I don't > want to post to > much and the quotes I found from my old notes are about the "Middle > Way." Hallo Lisa I postpone answering Tep about The Middle Way (and emptiness), to give first a reaction to the nice words of you. You are of course right in your Sutta-quotes. But there are many more. To give a spatial metaphore: the Middle Way is situated in a universe with more dimensions. The Middle way in the 'Kayanagotta Sutta' describes another aspect. And I added another aspect too because I think the Buddha did not mean we should have compassion for 'a concept', I can only have compassion for living (and thus suffering) beings. Of course it's the question if it's permitted to add something to the Pali Canon; I think it is, of course it should be discussed before it's added on a more definite way but it is permitted. A question, because english is not my native language: what do you mean with "you might get your tail nipped off"? I first readed "your nails cut" ('cut' is 'knipped' in dutch) which sounds as a nice - but strange - wish. Metta Joop BTW Today I found a site with three enormous texts about The Middle Way in Sutta Pittaka (together more than 500 pages): http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Part_1.txt http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Part_2.txt http://gileht.tripod.com/Middle_Way_Sutras_Topics.txt ..... > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of > non-duality, > gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you > think what ever your > thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped > off....ouch....;) > > With Metta, > Lisa 46690 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Howard, Colette & all), A few more reflections - no need to respond unless it's helpful for you to do so. --- Philip wrote: > As for the Alzheimer's, .... S: I once asked K.Sujin about the development of awareness if one has such a condition and her response was along the lines of 'it's not Alzheimer's all the time'. Different moments again. I also think of her comments when someone mentions a diagnosis of 'cancer' or something else and she says 'it's just a word or a label'. Again it sounds like a cold shower and can even seem shocking in the circumstances. But isn't it true that we hear a diagnosis and then have such long, long stories about it when we really have no idea what is in store for us at any moment? Sometimes it is the anguish on account of the diagnosis that causes the main problems as we've all discussed. Having written my other post and made these comments, I am keenly aware of the difficulties that usually arise in families with Alzheimers's. Few families are spared and I remember my grandmother's rapid decline and the household difficulties only too well. Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's commitments to be with one's parents physically. During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the same extent. When I spoke to her the day before she died, she talked with so much joy about how he'd been the greatest support and given the best assistance imaginable over her last difficult years after her husband had died and she became rather confused, emotional and very sick. He did visit for her last birthday, but most the time she had to rest anyway. Then he got to her bedside only just before she died, but there was no suggestion that he'd arrived too late to help. The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. I know Jon would like to add more and he may do so at the weekend when he has a little free time, Phil. He's lived abroad for almost his entire adult life and discussed these points often with K.Sujin who never suggests any particular action (as you heard in the discussion with the Burmese man with the dying mother in Myanmar). Metta, Sarah p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) =========== 46691 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Arouse yourself: Get Up and Going ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Enthusiastic Energetic Effort produces every Success: Buddha once said: Friends, the lazy person dwells in misery, soiled by evil detrimental states. Great is the personal advantage, that one thus neglects. But the energetic & enthusiastic person lives happily, secluded from evil detrimental states, and great is the personal advantage, that one thereby wins. It is not by the inferior that the supreme is attained. Rather, it is only by the supreme effort, that the supreme state is attained. Friends, this Noble Life is a sublime juice! Therefore, friends, while this Teaching is present, arouse your energy for the attainment of the yet unattained, for the achievement of the yet unachieved, for the realization of the yet unrealized... Considering your own future, friends, is enough to make every effort for reaching this goal; considering the good future of others, is enough to do your best; considering the best of both, it is enough to strive for the supreme goal with thoroughness! Thus, friends, should you train yourselves. Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 29 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46692 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, Good to hear from you too. You are quite right, I did appreciate that sutta you posted. Thank you :-) > > For me, khandas are categories. <...> > .... > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > sutta I think you'll appreciate: It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going pretty much the way they have been :-) from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), established on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), established on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), established on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible. "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) Cheers Herman > > Khandha Sa.myutta, 22:31, The Root of Misery (Bodhi transl) > > "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you misery (agha, glossed dukkha in > the commentary)and the root of misery. Listen to that... > > "And what, bhikkhus, is misery? Form is misery; feeling is misery; > perception is misery; volitional formations are misery; consciousness is > misery. This is called misery. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the root of misery? It is this craving that leads > to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight > here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for > existence, craving for extermination. This is called the root of misery." > > Good to see you back! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 46693 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:13am Subject: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 (was:Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.4 ...) sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you very much for your introduction and answers to my questions. I'll look forward to the second installment. I'm very sorry to hear about the tragedy of your niece. Thank you for sharing with us. There are other members here who have also lost siblings and children to suicide. It's very, very tough for families. My sister-in-law lost her sister last year who jumped from the white cliffs at Dover, England. I've been very concerned about my sister-in-law who has also been extremely depressed and off sick from work for months. At one point she left her family because she wanted to be on her own...I talked to her when I could and now she's moved back and seems to be doing better. How fortunate you are to seek guidance and solace in the Dhamma and to be able to discuss problems in this light. It makes a huge difference, I think. Please ask any questions here and join in any threads. --- balancing_life wrote: > In the Mahindarama Temple, they have a Bodhi tree which originally > came from a sapling or seed of the original Bodhi where Lord Buddha > gained Enlightenment and also in the temple, there is a special room > where his real "relics" are kept, which also has been brought there > from India. ... S: It sounds like a wonderful place and you sound as though you're doing well. Guilt and regrets are so totally useless....one has to let it all go- "For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state." (MN131) .... Sometimes it just takes patience and courage. As I also reminded my sister-in-law recently, when one's helping and concerned about others, one forgets about one's own grief or difficulties ..... > With Metta > :} > AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land ... S: This is so cute:). I look f/w to more AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land:). I'll look forward to any of your reflections on how your course and studies have helped you through this difficult time too. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon used to have lots of contact with Buddhist friends in Penang when he lived in Thailand and used to send boxes and boxes on Nina's early books to them -- 'Buddhism in Daily Life' and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. You may have come across the books, but now I think of it, it was nearly 30 yrs ago that I'm talking about!! =============================== 46694 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Nina, Sarah, Colette, Dan and all.. (especially Sarah for your two very long and thoughtful posts. They will be read and rearead many times, I'm sure, as your response to the "Dear Abbydhamma" post was...) There isn't really need to think about what to do now - that time will come. I was just curious about the way I responded to the bad news, without too much grief. In the past I would have taken this as coldness - and there may be an element of that - but now I feel that the Buddha's teaching has helped me a lot in having the response I did. (Others might say it is self using a pseudo understanding of the Buddha's teaching in order to find comfort...that may be true too.) In any case... > Ph: Of course I thought a lot about what Nina called the "cold > > shower" of the message Kh Sujin gives to people when they are caught > > up in stories about people, worrying about people - it is just nama..... > > N: And when we are near to that person the situation changes again. We have to > think how to act that there is little time for worry. So nama changes from > moment to moment. Ph: Yes, this is what I've been feeling. It's like the precepts. Thinking about keeping the precepts is pretty meaningless compared to a moment of abstaining from an unwholesome deed when the opportunity presents itself. And thinking about wholesome service to my mother is pretty meaningless compared to the actual performance of wholesome service to her. It's like looking at a picture postcard of Paris as compared to actually going to Paris. (Why Paris? Ooh la la...if you must ask, you have not been to Paree...) Looking at the picture postcard might be a condition in some vague way to actually going, and thinking of wholesome service might be a condition in some way to actually performing it, yes, that's true. I heard a very, very helpful passage from Kh Sujin today. Really great. I'm understanding more and more about why people go all the way to Bangkok to sit and talk with her. It's in the Savatthi talk. Chris had been asking about her sad feelings about whether to put Rusty to sleep or not: Kh Sujin: "And the others too...people in the hospital...to do one's best, that's all. Because you see that even crying, being disturbed by those situations, are not the Buddha's teaching at all. He saved (saves?) us from all akusala, with panna which understands the situation. What is the use of crying and happy? Happy is all right, but not crying. Chris (or someone): But it comes. Kh Sujin: So one knows one's accumulations. To understand the world, your own world. Because usually we mix all worlds together, but actually there is only one moment of citta. And it keeps on thinking about people and things and world and when there is understanding one can see at that moment whether it thinks with kusala or akusala. Just know or understand reality is the Buddha's teaching. (There follows more quesstions/comments from Chris about her feelings about seeing the suffering of animals when she goes to India and other Asian countries. Sorry for the loose paraphrase, Chris.) Kh Sujin: I think we don't know at that moment what kind of citta is thinking. Because if there is no citta which thinks there is no such and such story at all. We are lost again in the world of thinking. It cannot help one to see the anattaness of citta, which change from seeing to thinking, hearing to thinking, so we always live in the world of concept.So Buddha helps us to understand that actually it's only a moment of thinking. And it depends on kusala citta or akusala citta which thinks right then, which type of citta will arise. So it doesn't matter what will we do, but when there are conditions for doing a certain thing, you understand that it's conditioned that way, and you are released from crying because it's by conditions. Otherwise there must be idea, and theory to follow. Anything which will come closer and closer to anattaness, there should be more attention to that point. To really understand realities. And where's the dog? Phil's comment: Well, sadly, as we know, Rusty died, and my mother will probably slide into oblivion quite soon. So the concepts involved here are powerfully personal and involve a lot of intense clinging. (a.k.a love) So what Kh Sujin teaches above is not going to always help us when our level of understanding is so shallow. But *it is the truth*, it is the Buddha's teaching, and as Azita said a little later on this tape, we will benefit from understanding it, accepting it at least intellectually as soon as possible. On screen it might sound cold, but if you listen to Kh Sujin's voice there is real warmth. I really feel it like a warm shower, not a cold one. But, again, this is a bit suspect, because there is no way understanding could be arising through me to allow such detachment at this stage. So there might be some kind of coping mechanism at work, or, as friends have told me, I'm just a bit of a cold lad when it comes to family and old friends. (The folks are lovely people, and my brother and sister are as well - no dysfunctionalities as far as I can tell - but since I became an adult I've tended to fall out of touch. When we're together, we're together and it's great, very warm. Last summer we celebrated my mother's 80th, and the siblings performed, it was great. But when I'm on the other side of an ocean, I'm on the other side of an ocean...whereas with you Dhamma friends whom I wouldn't recognize if I passed on the street, I hang out and bare my soul...hmmm) Anyways, the next part of this talk is very interesting. Nina brings up Lodewijk's feeling that Dhamma should not be presented in such stark terms, that he cannot accept "there is no Nina." An interesting exchange follows. I think I will transcribe it next time. Metta, Phil 46695 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Howard among many other members..)- > ... Hallo Tep Tep: Seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view Joop: Thanks Tep. If you don't mind, I will react to your remarks when I also try to respond to Sarah's message #46688. Tep: … curious about your thoughts on the Heart Sutra with regard to the ultimate realities and the Middle Path. Joop: That a difficult one. I'm not so much an expert, but I think that what the Heart Sutra and the Kaccayanagotta Sutta have in common is that they both about EMPTINESS. And it's the idea of emptiness that resonates deep in me, that I connect with the principle of anicca and that brings me again and again to the conclusion: I'm a buddhist. (Some month ago I already said, a little bit teasing Sarah: who is fighting his of her strong ego, is most interested in the anatta principle; and who is fighting a strong ontological need (like me), is most interested in anicca. That the Heart Sutra is about emptiness, is evident. And the Kaccayanagotta Sutta is (according David Kalupahana, who states that Nagarjuna is not a Mahayanist) the sutta that inspired Nagarjuna to write his famous Philosophy of the Middle Way (Mulamadhyamakakarika). The Heart Sutra is a hundred percent Mahayana text with some Sariputta-bashing in it, that's the reason I doubted to talk about it in DSG. Because your are curious and because of Howard's support I quote it here in the translation used by Thich Nath Hanh. THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA "Heart Sutra" The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. "Hear, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are neither produced nor destroyed, neither defiled nor immaculate, neither increasing nor decreasing. Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion and realizing perfect Nirvana. All Buddhas in the past, present, and future, thanks to this Perfect Understanding, arrive at full, right, and universal Enlightenment. "Therefore, one should know that Perfect Understanding is a great mantra, is the highest mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of all suffering, the incorruptible truth. A mantra of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed. This is the mantra: "Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha." Metta Joop 46696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I shall try these numbers. I was startled by the hour, up at threethirty, and hope that you get enough sleep. I realize that editing the tapes is a lot of work, but many people can profit of it. I am also busy copying them for myself. With appreciation, Nina. op 16-06-2005 21:25 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > 14156, 14178, 15064, 16306, 17540 > > google - if you try this, I'd suggest 'Num dhammastudygroup'. Or in > dhammastudygroup.org, try 'Num patisambhida' or patisambhidaa?? 46697 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Tep) - Sarah and Jon, I hope that this brief discussion of a Mahayana sutra is not too objectionable. I interpose my understanding below, in context: THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA "Heart Sutra" The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. --------------------------------------- Howard: I take the foregoing to mean that all conditioned dhammas are empty, that by the very fact of their conditioned, contingent status, they are empty of own-being, lacking a core of self-existence. They arise, but contingently, and are not self-existent. Likewise, emptiness is not a "thing" of its own; emptiness is never found except as the empty nature of dhammas. --------------------------------------- "Hear, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are neither produced nor destroyed, neither defiled nor immaculate, neither increasing nor decreasing. ----------------------------------- Howard: The meaning here, I believe, is that when dhammas arise and cease, there are no self-existent entities that are arising and ceasing. No dhammas have separate, independent existence even for a moment. (The formulation, of course, is confusing and a bit off-putting.) ---------------------------------- Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. ------------------------------------------- Howard: From the perspective of emptiness none of these exist as separate, independent entities or events. ------------------------------------------ "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion and realizing perfect Nirvana. All Buddhas in the past, present, and future, thanks to this Perfect Understanding, arrive at full, right, and universal Enlightenment. "Therefore, one should know that Perfect Understanding is a great mantra, is the highest mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of all suffering, the incorruptible truth. A mantra of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed. This is the mantra: "Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha." --------------------------------------------- Howard: "Gone, gone beyond, gone fully beyond: Hail awakening!" ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46698 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only/ Kel's Contribution buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa - I appreciate your nice comment very much. I think all of the "hardy DSG folks" are also pleased. But the light in my heart is one of the most unreliable things I've ever known. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I woud like to thank you and Sarah and the rest of the hardy DSG folks for reaching > out and really trying to communicate with me. You are show the hardiness factor! I > want to tell both of you again how much I am amazed by your knowing and > understanding. I do not bow to the heap or to the thought but to the light in your > hearts. > 46699 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Sarah, Tep, Lisa, and all Tep and Lisa already got a partial answer of me, so this messages primarly is about Sarah's # 46688 I think … questions are central now: (1) CAN DE LIST OF DHAMMAS BE EXTENDED? Joop: > The social citta is forgotten in the lists of the Abhidhamma (the > list of the Dhammasangani and the lists of commentaries that are not > exactly the same) but can be found in the Suttas. S: I haven't seen any difference in any of them, but often factors are overlooked. For example, often there's a suggestion there are different cetasikas mentioned in the commentaries from the Dhammasangani, but I don't believe this is correct. (see U.P. 'Dhammasangani'). yes, there is more detail given in the commentaries than in the suttas, but that's the purpose of the commentaries - to elaborate as needed. Joop (now) I don't discuss about the authority of the 'commentaries' because I promised myself to be careful in posting again a week ago. But about the difference some words. Motto: "There is no reason why the Abhidhamma philosophy of the Southern or Theravada tradition should stagnate today or why its further development should not beresumed." (Nyanaponika Thera, Preface to 'Abhidhamma Studies') Three examples: (a) In the Dhamma-Sangani 56 'states of consciousness' are listed, followed by "Now these - or whatever incorporeal, causally induced states …"The translator C.A.F. Rhys Davids informs us that "Nine other staes, according to the Cy, are here implied as factors in this psychosis, viz. desire, … resolve, …attention, …equanimity,…, pity, … sympathy, … abstinence…" (p 4/5) This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. (b) One of the Rupas in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is heart-base (hadayavatthu) In the list of rupas in the Dhamma-Sangani this base doesn't occur! I have read BB's defense that it occurs in a very vague way in the Patthana (CMA, p 144/145) but I think most scholars agree that's hadayavatthu is a real addition to the list of rupas. (c) My 'social citta' (2) MUST IT BE EXTENTED WITH A 'SOCIAL CITTA' ? In my buddhism (that is not 100% Theravada) I add: Joop: > I define this 'social citta' as "the intuitive, so immediate, > awareness of the presence of another being". ... Sarah: To me this is a kind of thinking, often without words. There is the seeing of the visible object and then immediately the idea of another 'presence'. Even babies have such an idea very quickly, don't they? Joop (now): yes, even babies, that's a 'proof' that it's not 'thinking' because babies (for exemple according Piaget) cannot think in this way. (3) IS 'ONLY FIVE KHANDHAS' AN EXTREME VIEW? Tep states that's not the case, but that 'only five khandhas' in a right view. Joop: Yes, that right, it's a right view in a soteriological and not in a ontological way. It's a right view when I contemplate about myself, when Tep contemplates about himself etc. But not about living beings in general. Perhaps I can better reformulate my statement: 'only five khandhas' an extreme view, BUT NOT TOO EXTREME. We had to combine it with another view (that is my eyes right too): a suffering being is not a concept; proof: I don't feel compassion for concepts. I realize this can be seen as a paradox or as a inconstistency (I am five khandhas but He is not five khandhas); but that is only the case in a ontological way of thinking And, as Ven. Nyanaponika Thera has explained, that's not a correct way (p 19/20). Sarah: So back to your great choice of sutta, Kaccayana gotta Sutta, it emphasises this right understanding/discernment. When it develops, the extreme views do not occur to one. Then we learn about conditions and dependent origination. No self or other selves involved. Joop: I agree, but I don't say a suffering being has a 'self', I say: a suffering being is not a 'IT' (cf Martin Buber: I and Thou). Metta Joop 46700 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:48am Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop and Howard - I thank you, Joop, for presenting enough of the Sutra's main points just to give me some ideas. Thanks, Howard, for giving me a perspective from where you stand -- I agree with you that the "formulation" is confusing. Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear? Or does emptiness exist everywhere, internally and externally? Not only that the Sutra is confusing, I have also found some contradiction and exaggeration. Contradiction ------------------- The Sutra states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, no citta (mind); no dhammas (e.g. paticcasamuppada); no dukkha (sufferings); no nirodha(extinction of suffering); no path, no understanding, no attainment. Then later on, it states as follows: "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion ..." It is a contradiction to itself because Perfection of Understanding is also an understanding, therefore it does not exist. Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? Exaggeration -------------------- Nirvana is already the ultimate - you can't go beyond it. Therefore, "perfect Nirvana" is nothing but an exaggeration. Another exaggeration is the "full, right, and universal Enlightenment". If Enlightenment is not final, then "full Enlightenment" can be superseded by fullest Enlightenment ! Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Joop (and Tep) - > > Sarah and Jon, I hope that this brief discussion of a Mahayana sutra is > not too objectionable. I interpose my understanding below, in context: > > THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA > "Heart Sutra" > The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain. > "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does > not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The > same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and > consciousness. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I take the foregoing to mean that all conditioned dhammas are empty, that by the very fact of their conditioned, contingent status, they are empty of own-being, lacking a core of self-existence. They arise, but contingently, and are not self-existent. Likewise, emptiness is not a "thing" of its own; emptiness is never found except as the empty nature of dhammas. > --------------------------------------- 46701 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 12:50:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Joop and Howard - I thank you, Joop, for presenting enough of the Sutra's main points just to give me some ideas. Thanks, Howard, for giving me a perspective from where you stand -- I agree with you that the "formulation" is confusing. Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear? Or does emptiness exist everywhere, internally and externally? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, there is no "emptiness" to enter. There is no such dhamma. There is what there is, and it is all empty (anatta). With the onset of full awakening, the empty nature of all dhammas is evident. All conditioned dhammas arise, not as separate, self-existent entities, however, but as contingent, dependent, and fleeting conditions that are momentary facets of an indescribable but quite real, diamond suchness called 'nibbana dhatu'. -------------------------------------------- Not only that the Sutra is confusing, I have also found some contradiction and exaggeration. Contradiction ------------------- The Sutra states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, no citta (mind); no dhammas (e.g. paticcasamuppada); no dukkha (sufferings); no nirodha(extinction of suffering); no path, no understanding, no attainment. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. These do not exist as real, separate, self-existent entities. The Perfection of Wisdom suttas use 'existence' to mean "substantial, independent existence", and they use 'nonexistence' to mean "nihilistic nonexistence " or "complete nothingness". These are extremes. What these suttas countenance as real is the middle-way sort of existence offered by the Buddha in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. ---------------------------------------------- Then later on, it states as follows: "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion ..." It is a contradiction to itself because Perfection of Understanding is also an understanding, therefore it does not exist. Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. ----------------------------------------- Exaggeration -------------------- Nirvana is already the ultimate - you can't go beyond it. Therefore, "perfect Nirvana" is nothing but an exaggeration. Another exaggeration is the "full, right, and universal Enlightenment". If Enlightenment is not final, then "full Enlightenment" can be superseded by fullest Enlightenment ! ---------------------------------------- Howard: The term 'perfect realization' would be better than 'perfect Nibbana'. I don't know what the original Sanskrit says. There are, of course, stages to realization. ------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 1. nilovg Dear Friends, The Commentary has included many passages we also find in the Co to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta, translated as 'The Way of Mindfulness' by Soma Thera. I shall abbreviate this as W.M. > [Section iv] The Knowledge of Mindfulness workers: satokari ñaa.na. 'Here a bhikkhu..': Tep gives the following explanation: 184. < 'Here': in this view, in this choice, in this preference, in this selection, in this True Idea, in this Discipline (vinaya), in this field of True Idea and Discipline, in this doctrine, in this Good Life, in this Master's Dispensation. Hence 'here' is said.> The Thai Co explains : a bhikkhu in this dispensation: here: in this dispensation. It states that this is different from other religions. The sectarians of other religions do not have recluses who have complete knowledge. ---------- Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. Co: then as in W.M. it is explained that a quiet place is suitable because the bhikkhu will not be distracted by the sense objects. The bhikkhu who should tame the wild mind is compared to a cowherd who ties a wild calf to a pole. We read: We read in the Co to the Path of Discrimination the words: We read in both commentaries, P.D. and W.M.: ... N: Vision is a translation of vipassanaa. He, endowed with energy, develops vipassanaa and then reaches the highest fruit. *** Remarks: also before the Buddha's teaching people developed anapanasati and attained jhana. The Buddha taught anapanasati in an unique way: he taught it as part of mindfulness of the body so that the truth of anatta could be realized. The bhikkhu should be mindful of whatever reality appears also when applying himself to anapanasati. When he attains jhana he should be mindful of nama and rupa and develop insight so that he can reach arahatship. Nina. 46703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Sarah, op 17-06-2005 10:35 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > On tender insight and so on. As you mentioned, of course there is > thinking in between the arising of panna. When the insights are no longer > ‘tender’, there is still thinking in between, but no doubt about it being > thinking and understanding of it as nama. N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt that thinking about realities is a nama-element. I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the Sammaa-ditthi sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): Nina. 46704 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Joop) - Howard: As I see it, there is no "emptiness" to enter. There is no such dhamma. There is what there is, and it is all empty (anatta). With the onset of full awakening, the empty nature of all dhammas is evident. All conditioned dhammas arise, not as separate, self-existent entities, however, but as contingent, dependent, and fleeting conditions that are momentary facets of an indescribable but quite real, diamond suchness called 'nibbana dhatu'. Tep: I remember having discussed several times what existence means with you. When I talk about 'existence' I always use the conventional language. Existing things can be sensed or identified; emptiness is the opposite to existence. Using such a simple description, the term 'existence' is not complicated to me. However, when you describe it to me, suddenly it becomes a "higher level" philosophy and the meaning you are trying to convey eludes me. BTW: Does anatta mean empty? ------------------------------------- Howard (referring to the Sutra which states that in emptiness there is nothing : no aggregates, no ayatanas, ...) : Yes. These do not exist as real, separate, self-existent entities. The Perfection of Wisdom suttas use 'existence' to mean "substantial, independent existence", and they use 'nonexistence' to mean "nihilistic nonexistence " or "complete nothingness". These are extremes. What these suttas countenance as real is the middle-way sort of existence offered by the Buddha in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. Tep: When I said : "Do all things, including minds, exist before minds enter "emptiness", after which minds and all dhammas disappear?", I was talking about the impermanent states of mind and of other dhammas -- they are impermanent because they are caused by conditions (paccayas) that are, by their very nature, inconstant and impermanent. Of course all dhammas (including mind) are anatta - in the sense of the Anattalakkhana Sutta. And we also recall from other suttas that the views on existence of self (atta) and non-existence of self are two extremes and must be avoided. The anatta principle is the right view, the middle way that avoids the extremes (Note: non-existence of self is not anatta). ----------------------------------------------- >Tep: Because the Sutra sates that mind does not exist, then how >could the bodhisattvas' minds exist? Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. Tep: Do you mean that all conditioned, contingent, dependent dhammas exist? Do you define "existence" dependently on self (atta)? It is good for us to sort things out once and for all. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > 46705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. nilovg Hi Howard and Joop, I became very curious about this sutta and I am glad to have read it. I am grateful for Howard's explanations. I sense that when reading it, it is so easy to misunderstand the text. When I hear the word emptiness I tend to think of anattaa. Howard, you said this sutta means a lot to you. In what way do you find it helpful? Nina. op 17-06-2005 16:54 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > THE HEART OF THE PRAJNAPARAMITA > "Heart Sutra" > The bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect > Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally > empty. 46706 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I remember having discussed several times what existence means with you. When I talk about 'existence' I always use the conventional language. Existing things can be sensed or identified; emptiness is the opposite to existence. Using such a simple description, the term 'existence' is not complicated to me. However, when you describe it to me, suddenly it becomes a "higher level" philosophy and the meaning you are trying to convey eludes me. BTW: Does anatta mean empty? ======================== No, as I understand it, emptiness is not the opposite of existence - nonexistence is. Emptiness is the absence of self or own-being or independent being, and that is the nature of all conditioned dhammas. Anatta = su~n~na = "empty of a core of self-sufficiency or separate, independent existence." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46707 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi again, Tep - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Howard: It is the only mode of existence admitted by the Buddha: conditioned, contingent, dependent. Also, the mode of speech in this section is conventional, I would say. Tep: Do you mean that all conditioned, contingent, dependent dhammas exist? Do you define "existence" dependently on self (atta)? ===================== I don't understand what you are asking here. All sankhata dhammas exist momentarily, but their existence is a dependent, contingent existence, not an absolute, independent self-existence. As regards the question of whether I define existence as dependent on self, I'm not at all sure I get what you are asking. The sort of existence that is a substantial, independent self-existence is a fiction. It is a false extreme. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46708 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Joop) - In a message dated 6/17/05 3:10:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Joop, I became very curious about this sutta and I am glad to have read it. I am grateful for Howard's explanations. I sense that when reading it, it is so easy to misunderstand the text. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It certainly is. Maybe that's why the Zen folks like it so much!! ;-)) I think that this sutta is impossible to understand unless there is the realization that the existence and nonexistence referred to are extremes and are fictions to be refuted. ----------------------------------------- When I hear the word emptiness I tend to think of anattaa. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is exactly correct. The Mahayanists, however, put particular emphasis on the intimate relationship between not-self/no-self and dependent origination. --------------------------------------- Howard, you said this sutta means a lot to you. In what way do you find it helpful? -------------------------------------- Howard: It enables me to more clearly grasp the special way in which phenomena actually exist. This sutta presents, in a different manner, the same teaching as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, a favorite of mine, which says that "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence." And it also states "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle ...," and then goes on to give the standard formulation of dependent origination. ------------------------------------------------ Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46709 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers Hallo Joop, I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, Sun Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe I can include the Eightfold Path as well?] I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to behave if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of information here. Just a thought...Letting go of concepts hurts they are held by me to be so dear as to be self and to let go of them would seem as if I am dying. To die this death would be to die throughly I think. That's what it felt like sometimes walking away from old habits and long held beliefs while sitting in meditation and also working in daily life. "Door in the Sky: Coomarswamy on Myth and Meaning by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy (ISBN: 0691017476. I study Myth, it helps my paintings and also helps me understand what the old masters are talking about sometimes in the old Buddhist text. The Golden door has many different symbols usually it is linked with the World-tree in which the trunk, which is also the Sunpillar, sacrificial post, and axis mundi, rising from the altar at the navel of the earth, penetrates the World-door and the branches out above the roof of the world (ti.s.thaty uttra.m diva.h, as the "nonexistent, unmanifested branch that younder kin dreds know as the supernal" (Jama's supalaa`sa, the a`svattha of). This conception is directly reflected in the form of the hypaethral tree-temples which in India were originally Yak.sa holy steads and subsequently Buddhist temples; in all these rukkha-cetiyas and bodhi-gharas the sacred tree rises through the open temple roof and branches above it, an arrangement that is not in any way uniquely Indian. "One should stand aloof from intention, from concepts, and from the conceit of 'self.' This is the mark of liberation (moksa). This is the track, here and now, the leads to Brahman, This is the 'opening of the door.' Here and now. By it one reaches the farther shore of this darkness. Here, indeed, is the 'consummation of all desires.'. . . There is no attainment of the goal by a bypath here in this world. This is the road to Brahman here and now. Breaking through the "Whosoever is uttering 'I' and 'we' at the door, he is turned back from the door and is continuing in not. By Rumi: A certain man came and knocked at the friend's door: his friend asked him, 'Who art though, O trusty one?' He answered, 'I.' The friend said 'Begone,' Save the fire of absence and separation, who will cook that raw one? The wretched man went away, and for a year in travel and separation he was burned with sparks of fire. That burned one was cooked…He knocked at the door….His friend called to him, 'Who is at the door?' He answered, 'Tis though art at the door, O charmer of hearts.' 'Now,' said the friend, 'since though art I, come in, O myself: There is not room in the hourse for two "I"s. The double end of the thread is not for the needle: inasmuch as though art single, come into (the eye of) this needle. . . . Tis the thread that is connected with the needle: the eye of the needle is not suitable for the camel.' (To me 'cooking' means truly understanding and letting go of 'I', mine and other the letting go can burn if I can go by my own experience and I am guessing the camel is the thought that this is me, I, mine) Mysterium magnum, that is cannot be communicated, but only realized: All that can be communicated are its external supports or symbolic expressions; the Great Work must be done by everyone for himself. The principle of the open hand (varada mudraa) or expository hand (vyaakhyaana mudraa). The Buddha is never ineloquent: the solar gates are not there to exclude, but to admit; no one can be excluded by anyone but himself. The way has been charted in detail by every Forerunner, who is the Way; what lies at the end of the road is not revealed, even by those who have reached it, because it cannot be told and does not appear: The principle is not in any likeness. (there are citations given in the book on where exactly A.K.C gets this information he does not stick to the Nikaya text as you can see) As the Buddha said, quoted by Coomaraswamy: I teach as does the master painter or his pupil who disposes his colors for the sake of a picture, which picture is not to be found in colors, nor in the ground, nor in the environment. It is only to make it attractive to creatures that the picture is contrived in color; what is literally taught is impertinent; the Principle eludes the letter. In taking up a stand amongst things, what I really teach is the Principle as understood by the Contemplatives: a spiritual reversion evading every form of thought. What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be taught cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra II.112- 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from the Lankavatara Sutra. With metta, Lisa >A question, because english is not my native >language: what do you mean with "you might >get your tail nipped off"? I first readed >"your nails cut" ('cut' is 'knipped' in dutch) >which sounds as a nice - but strange - wish. > > Metta > Joop > > ..... > > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" > >was through the door of non-duality, gotta be quick > >going through that door it will close on you if you > > think what ever your thinking is reality as it is > >and you might get your tail nipped > > off....ouch....;) > > > > With Metta, > > Lisa 46710 From: "frank" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:25pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, I like your commentary. However, I think this section could use some more clarification: ---------------------------------- [excerpt from heart sutra] Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment. ------------------------------------------- Howard: From the perspective of emptiness none of these exist as separate, independent entities or events. ------------------------------------------ Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... -fk 46711 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. lbidd2 Hi Howard, This sutra would make perfect sense to a Theravadin if it were talking about concepts. Larry 46712 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Heart Sutra, a better trans. lbidd2 Hi all, Here's a better translation of the Heart Sutra: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mooncharts/heartsutra/english.html Larry 46713 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 balancing_life Hi Sarah & All I am sorry to hear of the suicide of your sister-in-law's, sister...well, it takes one to know one...its the living who is suffering, the effects or the aftermath. Actually, i was quite deep into depression, until somebody, told me that maybe she is better off dead (considering best friends do not play a prank on you) or off to a better reincarnation...whilst we are now living in this Samsara Land...well, that comforted me a lot, cos if not for her misery, she wouldn't have jumped. The one i pity most is her father, who loves her the most, as she is intectually able to communicate with him as an adult, and not a child and he only can be himself, with her around...no pretences. He loved her so much, that he gave her everything she asked for and her hobby is reading and listening to S Club 7 (i get depressed, when i hear their songs on the radio) In fact, her father asked me to go to the furniture shop to buy a bookshelf, just to keep all her reading books...like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc, and many others until the whole bookshelf is full...now it's gathering dust, cos her sister taste/hobbies, are entirely different from hers. But, all the while that i took her & my father shopping, both of them never asked me to buy anything for them...they were both very well behaved and both of them helped both my father and auntie (as my father remarried after my mums death when i was 19 years old and she is quite blind in one eye) around, when going shopping, as my father is in his 80's and quite doddering now, with his walking stick. Last time, when they used to stay with me during the Friday nites, they insisted on sharing my king-sized bed and the eldest would tell me ghost stories, while the youngest would sing Mandarin songs for me to hear before sleeping...then on Saturday mornings, i would take them to McDonalds to have the Big Breakfast, before taking them to see their grandparents. Later on, when she reached primary/standard six, there were a special exam, which determines which secondary school the eldest would go to and so the school had special tution on Saturday mornings, so instead of taking them from their mum's home on Friday nites, i would take the youngest one with me to the school on Saturday morning and wait until the tuition was over and when i suggested taking them to the McDonalds or KFC, they said they would prefer to have lunch with their grandparents...see how filial they are? Once safely, inside my car, both of them will be soothed to sleep, by the soothing voice of The Carpenters, or sometimes singing along, as it takes almost an hour to drive to my father's home. Then unfortunately, i read in a Mahayana's book, that those who died in accidents or those who committed suicide cannot be reincarnated until someone else takes their place...but then again, who knows, as Lord Buddha has told us, that not to believe anything that anybody said. Yes, Lord Buddha's teachings have taught me a lot...that suffering is envitable...that nothing is permanent and everything is only temporary...so we have to live in the NOW, as Ekhart Tolle has found out for himself. (or in other words, to be mindful or live in that moment only, for tomorrow may never come.) Well, her death has taught me never to take anything or anyone for granted...i thought i would one day wind up in the old folks home and she and her sister with their families would bring me "goodies", when they come to visit me, but unfortunately, that dream is gone...as Chinese proverb says, "The coffin only contains dead people, not old people". Oh, don't worry about me not having any Buddhism books to read, as i go to collect from each Temple, every Wesak Day, (except for this year) and i have more than 50 books, still unread. :} The reason i am more into Theraveda than in Mahayana, (although to me, whatever the sects are, they are the same, except maybe in diffent customs and traditions and all i am doing is only following Lord Buddha's teachings), is because i am English educated, whereas the Mahayana books are mostly printed in Mandarin here. You are rite, Sarah, i have learnt to let go, but as i have said before yesterday, i am into a real turmoil now, which is beyond my control and i can only solace myself, that i have used up all my good Karma and is now reaping the bad. Well, i can't control my past lives, but i can at least hopefully do some good in this life, so that is one of the reason, why i am sharing this e-correspondence with all of you...as i do not have much money to donate and do not have the time to do charity...as i am a home person and except for during working days, i prefer the silence of my home, whom i named my "Sanctuary", although eventually i know i have to move from here, sooner or later. I apologise for rambling here, as Lord Buddha taught us that there is "no self", "no body", "no I/myself" and "no ego", but i was just so sad that my niece had passed away, and i always thought, being so intelligent as she was, it was such a waste, and i always thought, she would succeed in my brother's business...i would have gladly traded my life for us, if only i could do so. Gotto go... :} AliceStillUnfortunatelyInRegretsLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Alice, Thank you very much for your introduction and answers to my questions. I'll look forward to the second installment. I'm very sorry to hear about the tragedy of your niece. Thank you for sharing with us. <.....> 46714 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:04am Subject: THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol balancing_life Yes, when at first a man takes alcohol/liquor, either for social or otherwise (some to escape from their sufferings or problems), he will at first lose his inhibitions and become someone else and not being his usual self, perhaps being more daring and braver...also he will lose his concentration and also his awareness and surroundings. It's like smoking a cigarette and you get high...or in my case, at one time when i couldn't go to sleep after my niece's death, i took Shandy instead of Beer, cos beer would make my head spin and also my face all red and i dislike the taste also...very sensitive to that stuff...anyway, it helped me to sleep and later on, i realised, that i shouldn't be doing this and so i stopped, but it was too late...i gained several pounds or sorta beer belly after that...lol. After taking alcohol or liquor, many drivers either drove themselves to death or hurt other innocent bystanders or other motorists by knocking them down, although not intentionally, but it's b'cos they are drunk and have lost consciousness. There was another case in our country in KL, whereby, a man who was drunk was angry (road rage) at a motorist in front of him (maybe just for driving too slow) and shot her to death, without any notice. Actually, guns are not legalized in Malaysia, but some VIPs or someone who are in the high position, can get them. And the irony of that incident was that women who got shot, usually did not travel that road as she will use another road to shuttle her friend home, but unfortunately, on that day, her friend fell sick, and so she headed straight for home. Well, i guess that is fated, and there is no escape from certain death. I had an internet friend from the USA, from another yahoo-group (not Buddhism) and he told me that he felt so hopeless, after a drunk driver crashed into him and rendered him useless, as now he cannot use his legs, and have to move along in a wheel-chair. As we know, medically, alcohol/liquor will eventually harden your liver and perhaps will eventually lead to liver cancer, as well. Also, i have had friends who sent me pictures/photos of people who are drunk and had being "decorated" with grafitti on their faces and bodies by their buddies, some sprawled away in the bathrooms or sofas, naked and they are not even aware of it and also of women being raped after getting drunk, as they were slept so soundly, that nothing could wake them up. And the worst is getting a hangover, after having too many drinks. In Malaysia, (maybe it originated from India as most Indians drink them), there is a locally made alcohol/liquor called "Toddy/Toddi" and it's very popular with the poor as it is very much cheaper than the usual liquor, which they could not afford, as most of them who drink them are labourers, but i heard it's very addictive and even more powerful that the normal liquor. Usually, i stay away from smokers (as i can't even breathe when a smoker is around and i could even smell them first, even before i see them or i could still smell the cigarette smoke on their bodies, even if they are not smoking at the moment) and also drinkers...it is a no- no to me. BTW, second hand smoke is even more cancerous to the lungs, than the person smoking it. Sarah, if you do not mind, could you tell us, how liquor took away your father's life? :} AliceInCuriosityWillKillTheCatLand A:> What do you understand of this: > "A man take a drink, a drink take a drink, a drink take a man." > When a man started to drink liquor sip after sip, the bad habit leads > from one glass to another glass and bottle, and finally the liquor > takes away the life of the man. ... S: I agree with it. It's just how I see the danger of drink. It's habit forming and makes it more likely that all kinds of akusala (unwholesome deeds) will occur. Liquor really took away my father's life in this way. How about you? What are your comments? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- THE 5TH PRECEPT: "I undertake to observe the precept to refrain from taking intoxicants and liquor that causes heedlessness." REFRAINING FROM INTOXICANTS Intoxicants here refer to all types of liquors, spirits and drugs, including fermented liquors from flour, cakes, cooked rice, yeast and fruits (e.g. grapes); spirits taken from flowers, fruits, honey, sugar and mixed ingredients and drugs like opium, marijuana, heroin, LSD, etc. This precept is broken when all the following 4 conditions are present: i) that which is either liquor, spirit or drug; ii) have the wish to take it; iii) the act of taking it; iv) being intoxicated. Breaking this precept, if heavy and done frequently, leads to the Woeful states after death; if only lightly, it may lead to madness. a) The Social Drinker If we look over the conditions of breaking the precept carefully, we will notice that the fourth condition of being intoxicated or drunk must also be present. This clearly shows that the precept is not that rigid, as it appears to sound like. Only we ourselves can really know our own limits when it comes to drinking. It is solely our responsibility to decide when enough is enough - nobody else can really force us to postpone our limit to another's limit. Thus the social drinker who drinks only on social occasions and who is not addicted nor particularly drawn to liquors and spirits does not break the precept so long as he does not get himself tipsy or intoxicated. However it is always wise to keep away from such drinks as far as we can - for who knows if we can or will not get addicted to or develop a liking for them? One should especially be wary of the company that one keeps on such social occasions because more often than not, it is the company that exercise the greatest influence on one's attitude towards drinks, and unless one is a strong-willed person, one is likely to succumb to the challenges, teases and mocking which follow one's refusal to drink. b) The Boozer Every occasion that the boozer takes to drinks and gets himself tipsy or drunk, he is breaking the precept. If he is only slightly tipsy, the precept is lightly broken; if he is violently drunk, or is intoxicated to such an extent that he verbally abuses or causes inconvenience and much trouble to others the precept has been heavily broken. If the addicted boozer does not put a stop to his alcoholic cravings he is surely bound for the woeful states even in this very life, not to mention the next. c) The Sick Sometimes alcohol, spirits and liquors may have to be used in mixtures as medicines for certain kinds of ailments. In such cases, even if the sick person becomes intoxicated by taking the medicine, it cannot be helped, if it is believed that the medicine will help to cure the illness. But strictly speaking, if the sick person wishes to drink it (or take it, as the case may be), and gets intoxicated by taking it, he is breaking the precept. In such a case, since it is through necessity rather than craving, the precepts is only lightly broken and the person will not be led to the Woeful States as a result of this action. The same principle should also be understood to apply to the use of drugs as medicines for the curing or for the relief of the sick. d) The Drug Taker All types of drugs, stimulants, depresses and sedative should not be misused, i.e. taken not out of necessity, but for fun of for `kick'. As far as possible, even when confronted with such problems like insomnia, or depression and other emotional or psychological problems, one should try ones best to refrain from resorting to any kind of drugs. If we are strong enough we should be able to endure. If not accept them for what they are: temporary states of mind, which have arisen, and which, eventually, MUST fall away. But if we are not, more often than not a sympathetic pair of ears can give a great deal of help - so seek out a good friend who is also a good and sympathetic listener and let him help us lessen the load on our shoulders. Special Importance of the 5th Precept Usually, when this precept is broken, all the other precepts are also bound to be broken. This is because when a person breaks the 5th precept, i.e. he becomes intoxicated (drunk or high as the case may be), and there is no telling what he can do. His inhibitions have all been shed, he is no longer in control of his senses, and, not being able to discern between what is beneficial and what is harmful, he is liable to be given to violence, even to kill; to steal, or to destroy others' property; to become sexually aggressive and dangerous; and to lie, slander, and be given to abusive behaviour - thus tremendously increasing the likelihood of breaking the rest of the other 4 precepts. It is therefore important to appreciate the special significance of the precept, which has been so aptly phrased: "To refrain from distilled and fermented intoxicants WHICH ARE THE OCCASION FOR CARELESSNESS" 46715 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways ksheri3 Hi Lisa, Okay, let me put my RIGHT TO BE WRONG, my IGNORANCE, out there as a predetermining factor here about the Middle Path, Way, Pillar, etc. From what I've read on my first reading of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha I have an inkling that this middle path is folly, just as ignorant and self-centered as either the dreaded Left Hand Path (possibly in this case the Vajrana) or the Right Hand Path (probably the Theravadan view, model) As you say the door opens for a second and it's either through the door in a heart beat or it's indecision time, second guessing, waffling, flip-flopping, while the door closes. This, friends, is a healthy way to view the situation of Nibbana but it comes on the Left, the Right, the Middle. Nibbana is a culmination similar to the Crown Chakra of the Hindu and their Kamma Sutta or is it Sutra? Nevertheless, I know, since I've practiced this since 1980 although not using the hindu or tibetan terminology and definitions. Now that I can define it better, speak of it easier, concentrate better, attempt what other's have attempted as a means to an end, etc, I am in a better position. The Kamma Sutta I feel is designed for the aspirant that has perfected the uniting of the Shiva & Shakti or in our terminology the middle path is designed for the aspirant that will not committ to either the Left or the Right seeking to RAISE CONSCIOUSNESS in upekkha, equinimity,indifference, calm. I don't see how that can possibly be accomplished with all of the termoils which will confront the aspirant thus taking the aspirant out of upekkha, equinimity. The concentration required would be tremendous and I don't think it's possible, yet I can be wrong and make incorrect choices. I do not believe the "DOOR" is non-duality I think the door would be a javana (consciousness) or jhana,(?). I don't have all the definitions with me right now at the library. Once going thru the door however I know that the proper environment is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT since, for myself, the flash of illumination is so intense and quick that I like my room, door closed, window open, low light, laying on my bed where I can freely allow my meditation to flow without hinderance(s). After the meditation then it's consideration of the realizations I've made where they are right and wrong, etc. Oh, it takes me several hours every nite and I do not like being disturbed however with my roommates they know that there's so much they can impose upon me at one time. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Joop, hallo everyone... >>snip>> > My first thought on "what is the middle way?" was through the door of > non-duality, > gotta be quick going through that door it will close on you if you > think what ever your > thinking is reality as it is and you might get your tail nipped > off....ouch....;) colette: no question. Sorry ya can't sit on the fence and play Mr. In- Between. I would imagine that there's a built in defense mechanism where if ya keep knocking on the door of Nibbana and never entering then the aspirant would be manifesting their own negation of self by their own False Aspiration. That may be worse then getting the ole tail nipped off huh? toodles, colette 46716 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... ========================= They are no different from all the rest of those things that are real, but not substantially and independently existing. They are all empty, but not nonexistent. Nagarjuna went so far as to teach the emptiness of emptiness! Of course, all this sort of talk is a kind of "shock therapy" I think. In part, it is like a Zen koan whose purpose is, I believe, to force one to give up on conceptualization, and just "look". (As the Zen folks say with regard to nirvana: "Look! Look!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46717 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:30:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, This sutra would make perfect sense to a Theravadin if it were talking about concepts. Larry ========================== Yes, indeed it would. It also makes sense to *this* Theravadin even with respect to paramattha dhammas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46718 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] egberdina Dear Lisa, Again, I enjoyed reading your post very much. I have just interspersed a few snippets here and there, and snipped a bit :-) > L: Sometimes I just don't know what to say to some things here on this > board, so I don't say anything which can seem rude I am sure. == Oh, well, I'm sure whoever thinks that will eventually get over it :-) == > Most of the time I stop commenting because I'm confused and I let go > of it for a bit and wait to see if anything comes up. Most of the > time nothing comes up and I just let it go and have to wait. == Yeah, I do the same. And if I am reading a post and something comes up immediately, I tend to wait as well. There's nothing quite as deceptive as my own brilliant powers of reasoning :-) == > >H: There are a number of different kinds of knowing. > > > > There is "knowing that". This is the knowing of facts. Reading is a > > very common way to acquire facts. Of course, before one can acquire > > knowledge of facts in this way, one has to learn how to read. > > > L: Cut a little bit out but you don't scribble, you write very > well and I kept my favorite parts, hope you don't mind. > > == Not at all. And thanks for the compliment. == > > I looked up knowledge in one of my reference books, > "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge" by K.N. Jayatilleke. > Well I must say that every civilization that I've read > about has sooo many theories on knowledge, who knows it, how it is > known, what it is and so on....wow > > Absolute, authoritative, cogitative, intuitive, higher, lower, > three-fold, five-fold, more development and salvation, indirect, > inductive and inferential as well, there is infinite, and insight > and also the instrument of intuiting ultimate reality, now that > looks interesting. 417....goes to that page[] > Chapter IX "The Means and Limits of Knowledge." Let me see if I > find anything that picks up the first interest I saw that stirred when > I was going through the index ( I just love a well done index; don't > you?). == One day I'd like to do an index to an index :-) == > My question is if you're not wise how will you know wisdom > when you met it in self or other? For me it doesn't hurt as > badly as ignorance lol, that is wisdom when I see it does not bring > the pain that ignorance does. (hahahah) == Makes sense to me. == > > Personal and direct knowledge is what attracted me to the teachings > of Gotama, "Come and see for yourself." Gotama was not a closed > fisted teacher and that is why I have stayed sitting as quietly as > I can staying aware and mindful just incase Buddha decides to visit > my town or even my heart. I would like to be able to see him like > the guy in my favorite Sutta MN 77. But as soon as I go down > the knowledge street I find the house of truth and there are > many houses built from truth all of different shapes and sizes. > The many theories of truth really do give me a headache... == There is just no end to it, trying to think one's way out of trouble. Of course, there's also the option of not thinking. Which is my favoured method of coping. I'm going to be really pissed off if I don't eventually fade away remainderlessly and be done with it all :-) == > > I think I will stick with knowledge for a moment and look at duality > when I look at something even myself I see an object how > can I truly know myself if I see me as an object. How can > something be a subject and an object at the same time? There I am > back to reality as being of itself and no other and having this > knowledge of reality I get really mixed up! How can I have > knowledge of reality and and also be the subject of that > knowledge, which I've been told can never be known since it > is never the object and I can't know the knower of the knowing > (na jijnatervij~naataaram vijaaniiyaah). Logic and reason can be > used to tell the truth or tell a lie but I know that truth on a > relative level is always dependent on something else to be and > can never be in and of itself and is not truth as it is. == I agree. I like to differentiate between what is real and what is true/false/meaningless. Like you say, the latter is relational and knowing what is true/false/meaningless is of no salvatory value in the long run, even though it's an improvement on being mistaken or ignorant about stuff. Logic and codependent origination cannot determine the validity of individual premises that are related together. It's the same algorithm as with computers, if rubbish in, then rubbish out. It is my hunch that reality is what the world looks like when nothing is related to nothing. == > > Well I guess I could go on writing about knowledge (and drift of into > what truth is as well) for the rest of my life but I haveto build an > excel file for my bosses billing system...formula's are > so fun! And to think some people believe that mathmatical formulas > can express reality as it isl....of course I may sound a bitter > because math isn't my strong point...lol...I am very spatial...lol > == Thanks for your very nice post and all the best to you Herman > With metta, > Lisa 46719 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi all I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for sure in which way he meant that. Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also anything from the commentaries on this? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 46720 From: V V Kulkarni Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jintamaya panna? vvk63 Thanks! Dan "Dan D." wrote:Great question, Venky. There is no Self that "gains" an insight and no Self in which to store it once it arises. It simply arises and passes away in a moment. However, there will be memory of insight. The memory may be very weak. It might not even strong enough to evoke conceptualization about it or a description of it -- beneath the radar, so to speak. Or the insight may be so strong and so deep as to eradicate all tendency for future defilements. In that case too, the moment of insight is gone in a flash, but its effect is strong enough that all future consciousness is affected because there are no longer any conditions for taints to arise. Dan <...> 46721 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Not Yours ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Ownerless & Transient Effects of prior Conditions: This body is neither yours, nor anybody else's. These feelings are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These perceptions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These mental constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These verbal constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. These bodily constructions are neither yours, nor anybody else's. This consciousness is neither yours, nor anybody else's. They are results of old kamma, prior actions, something to be seen as generated and shaped by accumulations of past intention, emerging to be sensed now... When this exists, that comes to be! With the arising of this, that arises! When this does not exist, that does not come to be! When this ceases, that ceases too! That is: The fading away of Ignorance causes Mental Construction to cease. The fading away of Mental Construction causes Consciousness to cease. The fading away of Consciousness causes Name-&-Form to cease. The fading away of Name-&-Form causes The 6 Senses to cease. The fading away of The 6 Senses causes Contact to cease. The fading away of Contact causes Feeling to cease. The fading away of Feeling causes Craving to cease. The fading away of Craving causes Clinging to cease. The fading away of Clinging causes Becoming to cease. The fading away of Becoming causes Birth to cease. The fading away of Birth causes Ageing, Decay & Death to cease. The fading away of Ageing, Decay & Death causes Pain to cease... Such is the ceasing of this entire immense mass of Suffering!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 65 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46722 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) > but I'd just like to note my response to some bad news. I heard from > my parents that my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimers's. > Having spent time with her last summer and sensing her increasing > confusion, I wasn't all that surprised, but still there was a lot of > sadness thinking especially about how it will be for my father. > ============================ > Despite the fact that "this is not a request for sympathy or advice," I > want to provide both. I'm *very* sorry to hear of this! My unrequested advice > to you, and I mean it very, very sincerely and emphatically, is to please spend > as much time with your mother now while a degree of clarity remains in her, > and permit yourself to love both your folks with all your heart and soul and to > unmistakenly express your love to them. The Buddha said that what we owe to > our parents is beyond measure. I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding loving your parents with all your heart and expressing that love unmistakenly. I do have a problem with the Buddha's statement regarding our debt to our parents. My position is nicely captured in the following ditty by Philip Larkin They f&$k you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were f&$cked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don't have any kids yourself. For me, the act with the most far-reaching consequences any being is capable of is to reproduce. But realistically, by launching their progeny into the unknown, parents hand onto their offspring a poisoned chalice the nature of which they are ignorant. I also have a more than slight problem with the Buddha's version of parenting. Like Sangamaji (Udana 1.8), he was a psychologically absent parent. The psychologically absent parent/carer sets up their infant for a life of depression and premature and psychologically tortured death. If in doubt, research what happens to orphaned babies who do not receive the milk of human kindness. It is not exactly a stroke of penetrating insight to pretend that the consequences of one's actions and responsibilities extend only to oneself. No child is born without the actions of at least two beings. Walking away from your progeny sometime after coitus merely expands the cycle of samsara, regardless of just how blissful personal ignorance of it appears. An infant with a psychologically absent parent/carer learns very quickly that there is no agency i.e. they are powerless to influence the course of events, and act accordingly. In Buddhist terms, they would be arahants. In human terms, they are dysfunctional, tortured wrecks. In closing, those beings who consciously choose to not reproduce show enormous insight and wisdom, in my books. My gratitude and respect goes out to them. Not to say that I am judgemental of those who have children, be that by choice or by accident. After all, I am amongst them. Kind Regards Herman You will be very, very happy that you have not > missed this opportunity to be with them and to show your love to them. I'm very > sorry for the upset that this must cause for your folks and for yourself. > > With metta, > Howard > 46723 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Num's postings. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I was startled by the hour, up at threethirty, and hope that you get > enough > sleep. ... S: Sorry for startling you ....I was woken early by a fierce storm outside, so checked the list as I got up for a short while and then went back to bed. Plenty of sleep now I'm not teaching:)). ... > I realize that editing the tapes is a lot of work, but many people can > profit of it. I am also busy copying them for myself. > With appreciation, ... S: Thank you for this. It's no trouble at all -- a pleasure. It fits in just when we have bits of free time. Much of the work is getting used to the technical side (we're real learners)...all v.experimental at the moment. Yes, I think many ppl can benefit. Nina, no need for you to copy by yourself. We'll send you an mp3 this week as it's difficult for you to download. The edited Sri Lanka 02 is about to be put on dhammastudygroup.org too, so I'll send this as well. I think we sent India 01 already. If anyone else has trouble downloading and would like an mp3, pls let me know (off-list with yr address in a 'cut and paste' form and indication of which recording you want -- I forget who I've sent what to). Metta, Sarah ========= 46724 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:44am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 225 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Akusala cittas are accompanied by the “universals” and by the “particulars”, but not all particulars accompany every akusala citta. When the universals and the particulars accompany akusala citta they are also akusala. There are fourteen akusala cetasikas which can accompany only akusala citta, but not all akusala cetasikas accompany each akusala citta. Some akusala cetasikas accompany only certain types of akusala cittas. There are twelve types of akusala citta, but there are many more varieties of them since they are, at one time or other, accompanied by different cetasikas. Moreover, akusala cittas can have many different degrees of akusala. Akusala citta may or may not have the intensity to motivate an unwholesome deed, akusala kamma patha. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46725 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Dear Sarah, I am very happy to see that you remain capable of putting a human story together. There is hope for us all :-) Cheers Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil, (Howard, Colette & all), > > A few more reflections - no need to respond unless it's helpful for you to > do so. > > --- Philip wrote: > > > As for the Alzheimer's, > .... > S: I once asked K.Sujin about the development of awareness if one has such > a condition and her response was along the lines of 'it's not Alzheimer's > all the time'. Different moments again. I also think of her comments when > someone mentions a diagnosis of 'cancer' or something else and she says > 'it's just a word or a label'. > > Again it sounds like a cold shower and can even seem shocking in the > circumstances. But isn't it true that we hear a diagnosis and then have > such long, long stories about it when we really have no idea what is in > store for us at any moment? Sometimes it is the anguish on account of the > diagnosis that causes the main problems as we've all discussed. > > Having written my other post and made these comments, I am keenly aware of > the difficulties that usually arise in families with Alzheimers's. Few > families are spared and I remember my grandmother's rapid decline and the > household difficulties only too well. > > Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with > your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, > when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's > commitments to be with one's parents physically. > > During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for > him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept > in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving > helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the > same extent. > > When I spoke to her the day before she died, she talked with so much joy > about how he'd been the greatest support and given the best assistance > imaginable over her last difficult years after her husband had died and > she became rather confused, emotional and very sick. He did visit for her > last birthday, but most the time she had to rest anyway. Then he got to > her bedside only just before she died, but there was no suggestion that > he'd arrived too late to help. > > The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how > she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional > worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in > your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. > I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good > guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it > goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. > > I know Jon would like to add more and he may do so at the weekend when he > has a little free time, Phil. He's lived abroad for almost his entire > adult life and discussed these points often with K.Sujin who never > suggests any particular action (as you heard in the discussion with the > Burmese man with the dying mother in Myanmar). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments > and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much > earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... > I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned > by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great > to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) > =========== 46726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, Tep, James, and others, op 18-06-2005 02:20 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for > sure in which way he meant that. > Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also > anything from the commentaries on this? ----------- N: Kindred Sayings I, 6, BrahmaSamyutta, i, Brahma's request. (In the B.B. edition, p. 231,232). I prefer here the PTS, that is just personal. The Brahma Sahampati entreats the Buddha to teach. The Buddha said about the Dhamma: We read that the Buddha was for a moment disinclined to teach Dhamma. The Co. adds it goes against the stream in its teaching of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa and non-beauty. I thought of your quote from the tape I read last night. I am not always ready to hear the truth of anatta, I had aversion. The reason is, that intellectually I follow it, but since it is not realized by insight, sometimes the wrong button is pushed. You spoke about Christine's loss of Rusty. We are not yet over the loss of my father, and I know that sadness is only a passing nama, but no insight that directly realizes it. Just thinking about it and this is not always helpful. Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like to hear that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. I was discussing with Lodewijk Tep's remark about Dhamma for beginners. Tep thinks that the difference between realities and concepts need not be stressed. It may be discouraging for beginners. Lodewijk said:'This difference is not immediately obvious, but gradually stage by stage one will understand. I found it difficult, but after reading Kh. Sujin's Realities and concepts (Survey of Paramattha Dhammas) it became clearer. It took a long time to sink in... The beginners should have patience, they should be humble and realize that they do not know much yet.' One should be humble and meek in order to appreciate the Truth of Dhamma, but there are not always conditions for humility and meekness. I would like James' opinion about the sutta of the Entreaty. He used to be active with a sutta thread and had good remarks. Now he is packing and going away, not sure he has time. Nina. 46727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz --Heart sutra. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you, you helped me to have more understanding of this sutta. Suan could also advise us if he has time. He moderates a Mahayana list. Nina. op 18-06-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: I think that this sutta is impossible to understand unless there is the > realization that the existence and nonexistence referred to are extremes and > are fictions to be refuted. 46728 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:01am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.5 : THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: Basic Paper 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODULE 2.5 : THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH The Noble Eightfold Path (Ariya Atthangika Magga), discovered by the Buddha Himself, is the only way to Nibbana. It avoids the extreme of self-mortification that weakens one's intellect, and the extreme of self-indulgence that retards one's spiritual progress. It consists of the following eight factors: - Right Understanding - Samma Ditthi Right Thoughts - Samma Sankappa Right Speech - Samma Vaca Right Action - Samma Kammanta Right Livelihood - Samma Ajiva Right Effort - Samma Vayama Right Mindfulness - Samma Sati Right Concentration - Samma Samadhi 1. Right Understanding is the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. Knowledge with regard to un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the origination of un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the stopping of un-satisfactoriness, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of un-satisfactoriness. In other words it is the understanding of oneself as one really is. The keynote of Buddhism is this Right Understanding. Buddhism as such is based on knowledge and not on unreasonable belief. 2. Right thoughts are threefold. They are the Thoughts of Renunciation (Nekkhamma Sankappa), which are opposed to lustful desires. Benevolent Thoughts (Avyapada Sankappa), which are opposed to ill will, and Thoughts of Harmlessness (Avihimsa Sankappa), which are opposed to cruelty. These tend to purify the mind. 3. Right speech deals with refraining from falsehood, slandering, harsh words; and frivolous talks. Right speech is filled with the elements of Truth, Beneficial, Pleasant, Timely and Kind Heartedly. 4. Right Action deals with refraining from taking life, abstaining from stealing and abstaining from sexual intercourse (including abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness). The cultivation of Loving-kindness, Compassion, Generosity and Sense- restraint are in line with Right Action. 5. Right livelihood is how one keeps his life going with right living and abandoned dishonest livelihood. It deals with the five kinds of trades, which should be avoided by a lay disciple. They are trading in arms, trading of living beings (human beings or animals), trading in meat (including breeding animals for slaughter), trading intoxicants (drugs and liquor), and trading in poison. Hypocritical conduct is cited as wrong livelihood for monks. For the contemplatives such as the monks, Wrong livelihood also includes reading marks on the limbs [e.g., palmistry], placing spells on spirits, reciting house-protection charms, fortune telling based on visions and giving protective charms. 6. Right Effort is fourfold - namely, i. the endeavour to discard evil or un-skilful qualities that has already arisen, ii the endeavour to prevent the arising of un-risen evil or un- skilful qualities, iii the endeavour to develop un-risen good or skilful qualities, and iv the endeavour to promote that good or skilful qualities which has already arisen. 7. Right Mindfulness is also fourfold. It is the mindfulness or remains focused with regard to a. body, b. feelings / sensations, c. mind, and d. mental qualities, With ardent, aware, & mindful, one put away greed & distress with reference to the world. The above four is also named as the four great frames of reference - when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. The seven factors of awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. 8. Right Concentration is the one-pointedness of the mind. When one withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskilful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the jhana (a meditative state of deep sensitivity and stillness of mind, "absorption,"), one experienced rapture & pleasure (1st jhana), rapture & pleasure born of composure (2nd jhana), equanimity, mindful & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure (3rd jhana) and purely equanimity & mindfulness (4th jhana). <....> Questions Why Right Understanding is placed first among the others when in the order of development one begin with the sequence of Sila? One important point to note as compare to the teachings of other religion is the Buddha recommended beside avoiding evils and doing good, one need to purify one's mind. Why? Answers (Module 2.4) What do you learn from the Rohitassa Sutta? What is in this very one-fathom long body? The answer to the question of unsatisfactoriness in life can be discovered within one mind and body. Therefore one need to look more inwardly to realize the Truth and not only searching externally. If the cause of suffering is craving (tanha) then what is the cause of tanha? The "not knowing" (Ignorance) that things are impermanent and the clinging onto it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 46729 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:50am Subject: Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant Sarah, Here is the repost as you requested. Look forward to seeing your reply. <<<<< --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > You wrote the following off-list a week or two ago and I said I'd try to > reply on list. Hope that's OK. Sorry for the delay. > > Al:>if you have any ideas or can make anything of what I wrote about how I > might make the best out of my seemingly dormant discipline, it'd be > welcome. After all, Buddhism is the doctrine & the discipline, isn't it? > And it's halfway to wise and disciplined, causing one to be safe from a > bad rebirth in the immediate future.< > .... > S: Just to clarify your terms a little. Pls correct me if this is wrong. I > think that when you refer to 'the doctrine and the discipline' you are > referring to the Dhamma-Vinaya. The Dhamma-Vinaya in turn refers to the > Tipitaka - the three baskets of teachings rehearsed at the Councils. > > We read that as 'the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the > Enlightened One: so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures' > and so it was rehearsed first. As the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas > disappear, the Vinaya Pitaka remains and the Dispensation endures. "The > outward sign lasts a long while (addhaana.m gacchati); but the lineage of > white-clothed recluses, starting from the time of the Buddha Kassapa, > could not carry on the Dispensation. But starting with the last to > penetrate the Truths and with the breaking of his virtuous conduct by the > last one, the Dispensation is termed withdrawn. From then on the arising > of another Enlightened One is not precluded" (Vibh-a, Dispeller 2172). > ... > > S: I'm not quite sure why I'm mentioning this except that I think we need > to consider what we mean by 'discipline' and what is meant by 'doctrine > and the discipline'. > > The teaching of the Buddha, satipatthana, has little to do with outward > signs. As the commentary says, 'the outward sign lasts a long while' after > the essence of the teachings has disappeared. You refer to your 'dormant > discipline' quite often, but what is this? Even when we're feeling lazy, > relaxing in front of the TV (as Nina just wrote about), or being very > 'worldly', sati can arise. You wonder (#46418) how 'worldly' or 'pious' > you wish to be, but we think like this only because it still seems that we > really have a say in the matter. > > Whilst watching TV, having frivolous conversation or 'entering the > discipline' as you put it, sati can arise and will arise if there are the > right conditions, having heard and reflected on dhmmas sufficiently. This > way there is 'discipline' even whilst involved in so called worldly > pursuits. Hi Sarah, I don't know if I can convey to you the meaning of what happened, but perhaps you have heard the term 'spiritual discipline' before? Yesterday my mother got me some new clothes and Saturday I did some slight rearrangement of my room, so I was a little less depressed. I then (yesterday) made arrangements to meet a friend for a stop at a Dunkin Donuts and then engaging in some leisurely walking. When I arrived, waiting for him to show up, I was firmly established in this 'discipline.' I was standing firmly waiting for him to come down one of two roads, and if conditions were a little closer to ideal my sense doors would have been controlled as well (ie just centered, at rest). Once my friend arrived, I could again see how beings were related to their merit, and how worldly-oriented people generally make a lot of demerit (some exceptions yes). I had the ability, just prior to this, if I so chose, to walk away and pursue "deeds of merit," and feel very strongly that I was walking along the path. This creates some unease in me because since I was hospitalized after my intial experiences with Buddhism I feel I have been conditioned off that path, even off the discipline. So anyway, after a brief stop, my friend and I left the donut shop and headed for a corner with two benches. I kind of could have described to him, the dhamma, and about how I felt I was doing, or what I could do, for future lives, but yesterday I was not feeling like a leader, so I was engaged in some 'basic' interaction, which, to my prior state, felt like idle chatter, but to what came later in the day, was still self-discipline. It eventually deteriorated into full idle chatter as I provided no direction for the evening and I could see how terribly wasteful people are of merit. You might point out that dhamma can be practised during idle chatter, but the doctrine & the discipline involves speaking *on* the dhamma and the discipline, what is meaningful, and so on, this includes abstaining from idle chatter. So this is sort of what I mean by the discipline. I could have created a whole world of dhamma for myself, but I didn't. I came away instead with a few lessons: as dhammapada and sutta nipata say: Don't live with the company of foolish or bad men (who are headed for rebirth as a bird), try to be more independent and take my own direction through life, try to be mindful and not rack up large amounts of demerit (begin practising all types of right speech when circumstances present themselves), and, more immediately, try to find and read about doing deeds of merit. This is trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 future lives, thinking about how / if I will get future (consecutive) human lives, realizing the rarity of human birth among other beings who haven't the merit now gives us almost an obligation to carry out our practise on a straight path to the end. A righteous friend would be nice, I do not know if I can do the major work of this alone, but I can try, if I keep these points in mind, and think on the dhamma occasion to occasion, perhaps even trying to 'force it' less than I currently do. Yes, that was somewhat of an admission that I force practise, when sometimes the path just unfurls itself to me when I least expect it. I simply don't have any certainty. I would be open to feedback in this department if anyone would be so kind, open-minded if there are any new ideas presented that seem to accord with my past and potential future experiences. Perhaps it's all or none, that is, I should have told my friend what I was doing with myself from that point and left instead of letting it be nothing but a Dunkin Donuts trip and idle chatter going from bar to bar looking for one with the NBA Finals on TV (No drinking, just wanted to see the game ;) and idle chattering a-lot. I do find it difficult to speak on the dhamma, I'm not very articulate, perhaps because I sometimes read about it in an obsessive or addictive way. so that takes away, but still, I should be able to salvage something. Anyway, hope this provides a glimpse for others on the list for what I was talking about when I mention discipline and clear up the ideas I shared with Sarah previously off the list. G.l., A.L. >>>> 46730 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Nina, and all > N: Kindred Sayings I, 6, BrahmaSamyutta, i, Brahma's request. (In the B.B. > edition, p. 231,232). I prefer here the PTS, that is just personal. The > Brahma Sahampati entreats the Buddha to teach. The Buddha said about the > Dhamma: > Deep. subtle, fine, and hard to see, > Unseen 't will be by passion's slaves, > Cloaked in the murk [of ignorance].> > > We read that the Buddha was for a moment disinclined to teach Dhamma. > The Co. adds it goes against the stream in its teaching of impermanence, > dukkha, anattaa and non-beauty. Ph: Thanks. Now the cloak of ignorance is thicker than it was in his day. We have to be very patient. Some would say no, the more ignorance there is, the more urgency we should feel to penetrate it. But it can't work that way. > > I thought of your quote from the tape I read last night. I am not always > ready to hear the truth of anatta, I had aversion. The reason is, that > intellectually I follow it, but since it is not realized by insight, > sometimes the wrong button is pushed. Ph: Yes, it's interesting and I think a good demonstration that we are always different people, moment by moment, let alone day by day or however long it is between hearing a certain talk. Sometimes when I hear those kind of teachings I have aversion, but usually find them very refreshing. (Like a cold shower....maybe cool shower is the way it feels.) Also I think I was right to question why on earth I can feel a positive response to it when my insight is so undeveloped. There may be accumulations, perhaps the same accumulations that made me respond with such fervour when I came across Abhidhamma, though for years I had this or that "spiritual" book and never felt the same certainty that I had come across the truth. On the other hand, as I said, it could be a kind of escape mechanism, a coping mechanism. This is one of the astute things James has suggested to me in the past and he could be right. > You spoke about Christine's loss of Rusty. We are not yet over the loss of > my father, and I know that sadness is only a passing nama, but no insight > that directly realizes it. Just thinking about it and this is not always > helpful. > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like to hear > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. Ph: For most people there is not even "not liking" the teaching, because they just scoff and laugh at it. For there to be not-liking it, maybe there must be a sense of being challenged by it, beginning to recognize it's truth. So the not liking it could be a good sign, the beginning of waking up to the truth. People who have no accumulations whatsoever to understand that there is no Nina, no Lodewijk will not hear the teaching deeply enough to even dislike it. > I was discussing with Lodewijk Tep's remark about Dhamma for beginners. Tep > thinks that the difference between realities and concepts need not be > stressed. It may be discouraging for beginners. Ph: Yes. When I met Rob K at the airport I remember I said to him that I thought it might be good to teach soft and comfy Dhamma, the kind Thich Nhat Hahn teaches, for example, to make people feel welcome, to get them in the door, so to speak, so they could eventually come to the true Dhamma. Rob said why not get right at the true Dhamma. These days I tend to think he's right, though I might feel differently at other times. If people get attached to false Dhamma, to wrong understanding, the roots get so deep. This lifetime is so rare, this chance to hear the true Dhamma, the Buddha's teaching. Thus the need to stress anatta, which is the only thing that sets the Buddha apart from spiritual teachers. We must stress anatta. That's what I really like about that quote - anything that moves us toward better understanding anatta. But that goes against the way of the world, especially in the West, where there is such an emphasis on self-identity, on making something of our lives, to be great people, unique people, accomplished people. As Kh Sujin said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. > > Lodewijk said:'This difference is not immediately obvious, but gradually > stage by stage one will understand. I found it difficult, but after reading > Kh. Sujin's Realities and concepts (Survey of Paramattha Dhammas) it became > clearer. It took a long time to sink in... The beginners should have > patience, they should be humble and realize that they do not know much yet.' Ph: That is a rare commodity. Well, I think it is fairly common for people to know that they do not know, but less common for them to understand that they *cannot* know by just pressing ahead and following a teacher's rules of practice, a method. As Christine said in a talk, in the West there is the thinking that if we follow a method, practice in a certain way, we can get our certificate, so to speak. "By this time next spring I will be X or Y." It doesn't work that way. It's all lobha. As Kh Sujin says, "it is impossible to do anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Or vijja cannot come from avijja. That sounds like a Catch-22, but the true Dhamma is full of potentially infuriating paradoxes and points so subtle that they simply can't be grasped by reason. Patience is so necessary, and intuition. But in the world we live in today people read about something like satipatthana and they want it ASAP and it goes wrong. I will at some point post more of that transcript. The talk I'm referring to is interesting not only re the "there is no Nina" point but also about Lodewijk's stress on the importance of relationships with others, and the Brahma-Viharas. Metta, Phil 46731 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al, --- Andrew Levin wrote: .. S: I meant, would you mind reposting the note you sent to me off-list to DSG? it makes it easier for me to respond (and others too) if it's sent here. Don't worry, I don't miss anything sent to the list:). Either way, I'll try to add something when I have a little more time, at the beg, of next week, I expect. Meanwhile, did you have any comments on the post I sent you a few days ago? I think our comments 'crossed' in the mail:). Have a wise weekend. Metta, Sarah ======== 46732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, I pasted below what I especially find helpful. And the last sentence: As Kh Sujin said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. Nina. op 18-06-2005 14:19 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Rob said why not get right at the true Dhamma. These days I tend to think he's right, though I might feel differently at other times. If people get attached to > false Dhamma, to wrong understanding, the roots get so deep. This > lifetime is so rare, this chance to hear the true Dhamma, the > Buddha's teaching. Thus the need to stress anatta, which is the only > thing that sets the Buddha apart from spiritual teachers. We must > stress anatta. That's what I really like about that quote - anything > that moves us toward better understanding anatta. But that goes > against the way of the world, especially in the West, where there is > such an emphasis on self-identity, on making something of our lives, > to be great people, unique people, accomplished people. As Kh Sujin > said many people want understanding, but they don't want detachment. >> 46733 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi again > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > to hear > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. Just an afterthought. It should go without saying, but Herman's comment to Sarah about his being surprised to see that she can tell human stories (tongue-in-cheek, I trust) reminded me that people fail to understand that Dhamma such as the Buddha's teaching throughout Samyutta Nikaya (I will refer to that out of respect for Abhidhamma doubters) which reduces people to khandas, bases, conditions and so on - the kind of Dhamma in whose terms we discuss here - *does not* deny that we can appreciate people deeply, love them, serve them. Understanding the deeper truth helps us to see people through an understanding that is clear of many defilements. I think Samyutta Nikaya is where the Buddha's deepest teachings in the Nikaya are to be found. In Anguttara Nikaya there are so many suttas about people. We can appreciate them too, with better understanding. For example, I read one of the ones in AN today that start with something like "there are four kinds of people..." Without Abhidhamma or the deep Dhamma found in Samyutta Nikaya, we might imagine people as fixed or defined by a dominant characteristic. We know better. People will say "I cannot love a concept." This is an example of lack of mental flexibility, a lack of intuition, a lack of patience with infuriatingly (if one lets them be) subtle paradoxes. Metta, Phil 46734 From: nina Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:44am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 166 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 166 Intro: Here the Visuddhimagga refers to the seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment: 1)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. As we have seen, these seventeen cetasikas include five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) Furthermore, the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is accompanied by attachment, lobha, and wrong view, di.t.thi. Thus, in this context, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. The second type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is: 2)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. As to the meaning of prompted, we read in the Vis. Ch XIV, 91: < When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the second kind.> The Tiika states: The Expositor (II, p. 339) gives an example of wrong view that is prompted. We read: Then an example is given of someone who marries a Œmaiden of heretical views¹, and though he does not agree at first with these views he accepts them later on with pleasure. Thus we see that the people with whom one associates are a condition for kusala cittas or akusala cittas. ******* Text Vis.: The remaining formations here should be understood as already stated under the profitable. For it is only the unprofitableness that differentiates them as bad. Tiika: It was said that the unprofitableness differentiates them as bad ((laamakatta.m) because of the extreme vileness (ekantanihiinataaya) of akusala dhammas. N: Here the Tiika emphasizes the danger and impurity of akusala. Text Vis.: So these are the seventeen formations that should be understood to come into association with the first unprofitable consciousness (22). And as with the first, so with the second (23), but here the difference is promptedness and inconstant [occurrence] of (xliii)stiffening and torpor. N: Sloth and torpor only arise with akusala cittas that are prompted, as we shall see. They are inconstant, that is, they do not always arise with these prompted akusala cittas. **** Conclusion: We are reminded that all accompanying cetasikas support akusala citta and that all of them are inferior and extremely vile. At the moment of akusala citta there is no shame of akusala, no fear of its consequences. There is ignorance of dhammas and restlessness, no calm. There is no confidence in the benefit of kusala, no wieldiness and skill for kusala. The universal cetasika that is attention, manasikaara, is wrong, unwise attention, and this is the proximate cause of akusala. The cetasikas of energy, decision and wish-to-do may accompany kusala citta and akusala citta. When they accompany akusala citta they are directed towards akusala. Learning about the akusala cetasikas helps us to see that akusala citta is anattaa, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. When it arises we are unable to perform any kind of kusala, kusala citta cannot be forced. So long as we take akusala for self it cannot be eradicated; wrong view has to be eradicated first. Understanding of whatever reality appears, be it kusala or akusala, is the way leading to the eradication of wrong view. **** Nina. 46735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? nilovg Hi Phil, In the light of dhammas and their conditions, a 'defense mechanism' is quite normal. Who hasn't? We see also in this conditions and anattaness. Nina. op 18-06-2005 15:22 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Understanding the deeper truth helps us to see people through an > understanding that is clear of many defilements. 46736 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - I'm pleased that you agree with me with regard to showing love. I also agree with you that bad parenting can be enormously harmful, and that if it is done with intent or even just not giving a damn it is akusala kamma, much to be ciriticized, and, I believe, carrying akusala vipaka in its wake. And I agree with you that folks who have no wish to be parents or think they will be poor ones do the world a favor in not having children. Yet, in addition to that, I do think that we owe much to people who provide entree for us to a human birth and, especially, who provide support to us as infants (when we have no other means of survival), which I believe was the Buddha's point. So, it looks like I agree with all sides of this issue, reminding myself of Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof, who repeatedly said "But on the other hand ... ." ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/18/05 4:36:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Dear Phil - > > In a message dated 6/15/05 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > This is not a request for sympathy or advice (not yet anyways) I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding loving your parents with all your heart and expressing that love unmistakenly. I do have a problem with the Buddha's statement regarding our debt to our parents. My position is nicely captured in the following ditty by Philip Larkin Kind Regards Herman ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46737 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:33am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:15 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/17/05 6:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Fk: The latter part of the excerpt seems to negate the 4 noble truths, dependent origination, fruits of ariya, and the attainment of the enlightenment experience itself! This requires some more commentary here... ========================= They are no different from all the rest of those things that are real, but not substantially and independently existing. They are all empty, but not nonexistent. Nagarjuna went so far as to teach the emptiness of emptiness! Of course, all this sort of talk is a kind of "shock therapy" I think. In part, it is like a Zen koan whose purpose is, I believe, to force one to give up on conceptualization, and just "look". (As the Zen folks say with regard to nirvana: "Look! Look!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46738 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that is a misinterpretation. This is an "ultimate" perspective. I see this sutra as being written from the perspective of "the other shore," having already scuttled the raft. ------------------------------------------ If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The perfection of wisdom sutras are very hard to follow, and very easy to misinterpret. No question!! (They go hand-in-glove with the incomprehensible Zen koans!) ------------------------------------------ I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? ------------------------------------------ Howard: No. ----------------------------------------- I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? ------------------------------------------ Howard: For me it is a pointing to the ultimate, and I find it inspiring. Likewise for the Garland Sutra, which attempts to portray a Buddha's vision of reality. I find great inspiration in many Mahayana sutras and Zen writings, but I go to the Sutta Pitaka of the Theravadin tradition for the direct teaching of the Buddha and for my practice, and, of course, also for enormous inspiration. Such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Kalakarama Sutta, the Bahiya Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, and the Anapanasati Sutta are my mainstay. ------------------------------------------ Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, hey, just stay away from what isn't helpful! :-) --------------------------------------- The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree. BTW, I don't view this sutta as a mantra-chanting recipe. ------------------------------------------ There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. We begin where we are, not where we'd hope to be! ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46739 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:57am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers > Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost > as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned > about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core > values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly > loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those > composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging > to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient > not to be clung to. > -fk > Dear Frank I think all views are conditioned and Buddhism is also a view and will end as well some day. There will come another Buddha and he will point the way, someone will record the event and another raft will be built just as sturdy but it will not be called Buddhism, who knows what it's name will be. To me it is important to move along and not to cling to the raft that has been by Gotama the Buddha. As soon as the other shore has been reached the raft will be left behind and the other shore will be left behind as well. Trudging onward I have no clue what will happen tomorrow! ************************************************* (Prajnaparamita Ratnagunasamcayagatha) Translation Edward Conze The Meaning of Emptiness He courses in dharmas as empty, signless and wishless; But he does not experience the Blessed Rest, nor does he course in a sign: As a skilful ferryman goes from this [shore] to the other shore, But does not stand at either end, nor does he stand in the great flood. Thus coursing, the Bodhisattva also does not think: 'Predestined by those who have the ten powers, may I experience enlightenment!' Nor is he trembling [because he sees that] enlightenment is here not anything. Thus coursing he becomes one who courses in the wisdom of the Sugatas. ***************************************************** With metta and even though we may be a heap of thoughts I see the steady light (not the light from a candle either lol) in our heart (not the muscle) which shines so brightly delight rises and is not mine or yours to hold. "Hey Tep maybe the light is unsteady because your attention is unsteady (runs away and hides)" There are as many points of view as there are stars in the sky when it comes to which way is right and which way is wrong. When there is no grasping or aversion to view and no right or wrong this is the way one slips and slides to nibbana which is not a place to rest only the state of unbinding from all points of view....hahahaha Emo Kid...Lisa P.S Did you know that the Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are the Prajnaparamita Sutra? I didn't know that.... 46740 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Reflection, mirror mirror on the wall, also duplication, dna replication ksheri3 Hi Sarah, You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? The brain is our western way to describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., seems to have a mind of their own. I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not very confident of using them. So, be kind to this neophyte and don't tear me up too much as I play with this new toy I've discovered. Sarah you and K.Sujin, I've noticed in my recent Googles,are well represented so I'd rather not engage you both at the same time, but there's a first time for everything huh? Oh, no, I've only got 5 min. on the computer left to do research etc. at least the points I was gonna attack, engage, are listed below in your p.s. and I can recover Monday. Glad to be here. Cetasikas and Cittas I'm still not too clear yet I know it's in the Abhidhamma so I'll review. Oh, Vipissana meditation, please explain! toodles, colette - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> --- Philip wrote: > p.s Colette -- a warm welcome and 'toodles' too. Very interesting comments > and reflections.....of course now Alzheimers tends to be diagnosed much > earlier and some people like Reagan live on for decades.... > I agree about helping ppl not to have remorse. Dying cittas -- conditioned > by kamma. Please tell us more about yourself and interest in Dhamma. Great > to see you're a Sangaha reader -- you'll be right at home:))) > =========== 46741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. nilovg Dear Friends, Commentary 2. to Section IV, satokari ñaa.na, mindful worker¹s knowledge. Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. The Co states that the subject of anapanasati which is the foundation of sukha vihaara dhamma (dwelling at ease here, now) of the Buddhas, Solitary Buddhas and all disciples (savakas) of the Buddha, that it is the highest in the field of the meditation subjects. Therefore, for the yogavacara who does not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses. If he develops it in the forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the highest fruit. That is why the Buddha said: gone to the forest (araññagato). ***** Nina. 46742 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and Nina) - I have read Nina's reply to your request, Phil, and it seems you are already satisfied with that answer. But there is a sutta passage I know that gives the real meaning as to why the "Dhamma goes against the ways of the world" or renunciation is against the "flow" so to speak. Here it is : "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Suppose a man was being carried along by the flow of a river, lovely & alluring. And then another man with good eyesight, standing on the bank, on seeing him would say: 'My good man, even though you are being carried along by the flow of a river, lovely & alluring, further down from here is a pool with waves & whirlpools, with monsters & demons. On reaching that pool you will suffer death or death-like pain.' Then the first man, on hearing the words of the second man, would make an effort with his hands & feet to go against the flow. "I have given you this simile to illustrate a meaning. The meaning is this: the flow of the river stands for craving. Lovely & alluring stands for the six internal sense-media. The pool further down stands for the five lower fetters. The waves stand for anger & distress. The whirlpools stand for the five strings of sensuality. The monsters & demons stand for the opposite sex. Against the flow stands for renunciation. Making an effort with hands & feet stands for the arousing of persistence. The man with good eyesight standing on the bank stands for the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened." {Iti IV.10; Iti 114} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti4.html#109 Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for > sure in which way he meant that. > Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also > anything from the commentaries on this? > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 46743 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > Okay, let me put my RIGHT TO BE WRONG, my IGNORANCE, out there as a > predetermining factor here about the Middle Path, Way, Pillar, etc. > > From what I've read on my first reading of the A bhidhammattha-Sangaha > I have an inkling that this middle path is folly, just as ignorant > and self-centered as either the dreaded Left Hand Path (possibly in > this case the Vajrana) or the Right Hand Path (probably the > Theravadan view, model) > > I do not believe the "DOOR" is non-duality I think the door would be > a javana (consciousness) or jhana,(?). I don't have all the > definitions with me right now at the library. Hi Colette, so nice to meet you! Lovely dictionary to help with Pali terms during A bhidhamma study study: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/dictionary/bd4.html Interesting abhidhamma study group who also practice samatha meditation. http://www.samatha.org/publications/abhidhammapapers/ Also there is this Study Group (DSG) which has tons of wonderful rescourses on Abhidhamma and how to use it in every day life. There are many guides here I will not tell you who they are, you may already know and if you don't know who they are I will let you find them, it will be a treasure hunt for you if you like that kind of activity. Warning Personal Opinion: Consciousness and jhana are all dependent on something else to be just as the word non-duality is empty of any kind of independent existence. Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric and these things are also made up of other things and if you try and take these things down to the smallest of particales all you would find is empty space. There is no chair and there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in if you don't want to sit on the ground! The jhana is a tool and a lovely one at that but it is a means not an end in my very limited opinion. The Abhidhamma explains all these things that come and go down to the very last detail, it explains consciousness and I see it as a teaching tool for teachers to understand the different mind sets of their students. That's my point of view and I see the Abhidhamma as very useful if your going to work with others to help them understand themselves and also break free of aversions and cravings. I still don't think Abhidhamma is a useful tool for every day living but that point of view may change as I move along. I do not see any of the Dhamma as in doctrine as bad or good but rather as tools to unbind from aversion and craving. Everyone has different patterns of aversion and craving and the tools the Buddha left are made to adapt to those different patterns. With Metta, Lisa 46744 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the Breathing Treatise. I also appreciate reading your comments to the presentation whenever you have time to write. I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience? With gratefulness and respect, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Commentary 2. to Section IV, satokari ñaa.na, mindful worker¹s knowledge. > Text: gone to the forest...or to an empty place. > The Co states that the subject of anapanasati which is the foundation of > sukha vihaara dhamma (dwelling at ease here, now) of the Buddhas, Solitary > Buddhas and all disciples (savakas) of the Buddha, that it is the highest in > the field of the meditation subjects. Therefore, for the yogavacara who does > not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed > by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses. If he develops it in the > forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for > the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the > highest fruit. That is why the Buddha said: gone to the forest (araññagato). > > ***** > Nina. 46745 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant Sarah, as you requested. This was the e-mail referencing post #46584 (not included here because of its length). I think I expected a reply from Nina, too, but I know that she is away for a week or so, so that is why there wasn't a response. Just don't want it to die there. thx, a.l. >>>hi sarah, are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, what approach to take, etc? if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that sake the discipline at all. let me know. pz, Andrew L<<< --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Al, > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > .. > S: I meant, would you mind reposting the note you sent to me off-list to > DSG? it makes it easier for me to respond (and others too) if it's sent > here. > Meanwhile, did you have any comments on the post I sent you a few days > ago? I think our comments 'crossed' in the mail:). No, no comments (if you are talking about the post where I snipped most of the original message). Any relevant material that would be brought up there however would probably come up in this post. 46746 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I have a couple more thoughts on this topic. First, maybe we could discuss what is meant by 'object of desire'. To my mind, an object of desire, or object of any consciousness/cetasika, is a single dhamma (concept or reality) that conditions the arising of a consciousness process. I find it misleading to say consciousness experiences an object. Rather, I would say consciousness IS experience. Desire doesn't experience sweet taste; desire is the experience of desire that a formation of sweet tastes conditions. Instead of saying that having an object differentiates nama from rupa, I would say nama is experience and rupa is a reality that isn't an experience. We can see this easily in the case of hardness. Hardness is an experience, a body consciousness, but material solidity is not an experience. In this view 'object' is not half of a subject/object relationship, but, instead, is a particular kind of conditioning factor. Desire is as much a separate, unique experience as taste consciousness is. However, this may necessitate the rethinking of our understanding of some cetasikas, such as ignorance and wisdom. Seemingly ignorance ignores an object and wisdom cognizes an object in a subject/object relationship. What ignorance ignores and wisdom cognizes is own-nature (sabhava). However, if we look at ignorance and wisdom as stand-alone experiences, instead of as 'subject', then, in the case of 'ignorance of taste while tasting', the ignorant experience is the unrecognized experience of a compact whole of taste consciousness and other factors, and the wisdom experience would be a specific, uncompounded taste consciousness. A wisdom understanding would be an integration of both these consciousnesses, the whole and its parts. If wisdom couldn't see the whole it would be in the predicament of the woman who couldn't recognize her husband because she was focused on paramattha dhammas (RobertK's story). Now, back to our discussion on whether paramattha dhammas condition desire and aversion. Abhidhamma says desire or aversion arises with ignorance. I think it makes more sense to say an ignorance object, such as the consciousness of a compound whole, conditions the arising of desire. When we like a taste, the 'taste' is actually a compact whole (concept). If we experience specific taste (paramattha dhamma) that taste does not condition the arising of desire. I suspect you will probably disagree with most of the above so the question I would ask you is how does ignorance function with desire? When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring? Larry 46747 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:17pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Lisa, I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future generations. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many Buddhists before us. Before I encountered the Buddha dhamma, I was angry at the world and depressed. Imagine being born into a world where the Buddha dhamma has disappeared? I can't fathom what a horrible hell that would be, even if I had the good kamma to be born as a king with every conceivable pleasure and convenience at my disposal. The dhamma is so priceless I would gladly die 100 excruciatingly painful deaths to keep it alive for future generations. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:57 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only > Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost > as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned > about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core > values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly > loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. There are no shortcuts. Those > composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging > to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient > not to be clung to. > -fk > Dear Frank I think all views are conditioned and Buddhism is also a view and will end as well some day. There will come another Buddha and he will point the way, someone will record the event and another raft will be built just as sturdy but it will not be called Buddhism, who knows what it's name will be. To me it is important to move along and not to cling to the raft that has been by Gotama the Buddha. As soon as the other shore has been reached the raft will be left behind and the other shore will be left behind as well. Trudging onward I have no clue what will happen tomorrow! ************************************************* (Prajnaparamita Ratnagunasamcayagatha) Translation Edward Conze The Meaning of Emptiness He courses in dharmas as empty, signless and wishless; But he does not experience the Blessed Rest, nor does he course in a sign: As a skilful ferryman goes from this [shore] to the other shore, But does not stand at either end, nor does he stand in the great flood. Thus coursing, the Bodhisattva also does not think: 'Predestined by those who have the ten powers, may I experience enlightenment!' Nor is he trembling [because he sees that] enlightenment is here not anything. Thus coursing he becomes one who courses in the wisdom of the Sugatas. ***************************************************** With metta and even though we may be a heap of thoughts I see the steady light (not the light from a candle either lol) in our heart (not the muscle) which shines so brightly delight rises and is not mine or yours to hold. "Hey Tep maybe the light is unsteady because your attention is unsteady (runs away and hides)" There are as many points of view as there are stars in the sky when it comes to which way is right and which way is wrong. When there is no grasping or aversion to view and no right or wrong this is the way one slips and slides to nibbana which is not a place to rest only the state of unbinding from all points of view....hahahaha Emo Kid...Lisa P.S Did you know that the Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are the Prajnaparamita Sutra? I didn't know that.... 46748 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:30pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, Bear in mind that the heart sutra is practiced by millions of Buddhists as a rote sutra recitation, for the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom(?!). If all the Buddhists reciting it had the same understanding of the heart sutra as you do then I would have no issue with it. If the Heart Sutra were recorded as the poetic utterance of a highly cultivated being, then it would probably be one of my favorite works as well. But I find it really distasteful and counterproductive to attribute that work to the Buddha using supernormal powers to induce the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara to belittle Sariputta. Not cool at all. For advanced practioners with highly developed Samadhi and theoretical understanding of the dhamma, I can appreciate the values of the heart sutra. For the average Buddhist, the heart sutra is at best a very nice poetic work and a mental exercise of cleverness. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 6:57 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, It really is quite a shock to read a supposedly Buddhist sutra that seems to deny the efficacy of the 8fold noble path, dukkha, cause of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, arahantship, stream entry, etc. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that is a misinterpretation. This is an "ultimate" perspective. I see this sutra as being written from the perspective of "the other shore," having already scuttled the raft. ------------------------------------------ If chanting the heart sutra really does cause the chanter to see that even the teachings of the Buddha and the path/attainment should not be clung to as some real THING, then that's great. But most people would probably have the same reaction I did - confounded and confused. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The perfection of wisdom sutras are very hard to follow, and very easy to misinterpret. No question!! (They go hand-in-glove with the incomprehensible Zen koans!) ------------------------------------------ I'm also not clear on the purpose of the mantra, "gate gate, paragate... etc". What are we supposed to do? Abandon the 8fold noble path and just chant that mantra all day? ------------------------------------------ Howard: No. ----------------------------------------- I'm open to the possibility that the composers of the heart sutra were cultivators who had lofty attainments, but how does the content of that sutra help the average Buddhist? ------------------------------------------ Howard: For me it is a pointing to the ultimate, and I find it inspiring. Likewise for the Garland Sutra, which attempts to portray a Buddha's vision of reality. I find great inspiration in many Mahayana sutras and Zen writings, but I go to the Sutta Pitaka of the Theravadin tradition for the direct teaching of the Buddha and for my practice, and, of course, also for enormous inspiration. Such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Kalakarama Sutta, the Bahiya Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, and the Anapanasati Sutta are my mainstay. ------------------------------------------ Better that the ancients had kept their sublime poetry amongst themselves instead of confusing the majority of Buddhists. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, hey, just stay away from what isn't helpful! :-) --------------------------------------- The average Buddhist ought to desperately cling to the 4 noble truths for dear life, dangers of grasping right view be damned. Those kinds of danger and clinging can be worked out later. The more immediate dangers make it necessary for us to cling to the raft like our life depends on it. It's not helpful at all (for the vast majority of us) to say, "in emptiness, there is no dukkha, no cause of dukkha, no eightfold path, no arahantship, etc..." Just to clarify my view, on one hand I appreciate the Heart Sutra almost as much as Howard does, but from the standpoint of a Buddhist concerned about the survival of Buddhism in this world, it's important that the core values don't get pushed into the background or forgotten for some supposedly loftier teaching or mantra chanting shortcut. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree. BTW, I don't view this sutta as a mantra-chanting recipe. ------------------------------------------ There are no shortcuts. Those composers of the Heart sutra went through a very important stage of clinging to the 8fold noble path before they could say it's just an empty expedient not to be clung to. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. We begin where we are, not where we'd hope to be! ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard rfffr 46749 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Tep But there is a sutta passage I know > that gives the real meaning as to why the "Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world" Ph: As for the "real meaning", this is your opinion, of course. That's why I asked for commentarial material. But I like to hear people's opinions. > "I have given you this simile to illustrate a meaning. The meaning is > this: the flow of the river stands for craving. Lovely & alluring stands for > the six internal sense-media. The pool further down stands for the five > lower fetters. The waves stand for anger & distress. The whirlpools > stand for the five strings of sensuality. The monsters & demons stand > for the opposite sex. Against the flow stands for renunciation. Making > an effort with hands & feet stands for the arousing of persistence. The > man with good eyesight standing on the bank stands for the Tathagata, > worthy & rightly self-awakened." {Iti IV.10; Iti 114} Ph: This is quite a busy river! Lots to think about. It is nice together with the wonderful SN 1:1 which really provides a helpful prelude to the Buddha's teaching, so we know the subtlety of what lies ahead. "Against the flow" in this case is renunciation, in SN 1:1 it warns against pressing too hard ahead. (Pressing hard without right understanding of conditions, in my opinion.) What in this river stands for the "standing still I sank" of SN 1:1? Perhaps the the whirlpools of sensuality or the pool of the five fetters. These river similes are very helpful. Thanks. Metta, Phil p.s signing of 'til next weekend, everyone. Sorry for the delay in any responses. 46750 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > > to hear > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the following. I know that you sometimes remember your mother, even when you are far away from her. You know how to contact her, and you know how to connect with her when you have contacted her. You and your mother have shared memories. I don't remember her, and I don't know how to contact or connect with her. I have no shared memories with your mother. Do your memories of your mother have an origin, a cause, a condition? Is there something that gave rise to you conceiving of your mother, no matter how variable and complex that may be? Or is your memory of your mother as you varyingly conceive of her without any foundation in reality? When you ring your mother and talk to her, what do you understand yourself to be doing ? And when your mother responds to you, what do you think is happening, as it is happening ( not in a later disection of your memory of it) ? Kind Regards Herman 46751 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:18pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Hi Lisa, > I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with > death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's > dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more > perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future > generations. > Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying > about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my > practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will > eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how > ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to > keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many > Buddhists before us. Dear Larry, I can't remember which teacher told me this. I was told the way to give honor to Dhamma and support it and your teacher and the Sangha is to follow the Buddha as best you can (be a good student and learn what is being taught). For me that means to break free from Samsara and I will have done my duty and given honor where honor is due. Dhamma is all around us and can never be owned by anyone or any religion. It has always been here and will never ever go away the doctrine cannot contain it for it is only words on paper. My duty or my kamma is to know this right now. Detachment is not disrespect in my fragile opinion nor is it apathy. It helps me stand tall and straigh as everything comes and goes with all that confusion in my mind and work my way through without getting lost. Talk about the woods, there is a whole stand of wild woods right in my mind and I do try and sit there like the ones who go to the forest and meditate. As we sit and quietly listen for Buddha or to Buddha (I don't mean on my behind in meditation) I guess this sets the seeds for us to be Buddha's some day and bring these useful tools to help others build the raft that will carry them to freedom. This will continue to keep the teachings alive I think. I want you to know I also feel the anguish of these times and knowing these things helps me dig in and really work at what is happening right now. I can get up close because I know everything passes away and there is no grief or fear that will last forever here and now and that also goes for happiness and bliss. It has really helped me not fret so much at the injustice of this world. I don't think there is anything else for me to say on this my words and understanding are very limited. I wanted to reach out one more time and try to put what I see into words, it doesn't work very well. I think my sight is foggy and my words are fragile. With Metta, Lisa 46752 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways egberdina Hi Lisa and everyone, I think the following is a very good description. >Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are > empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many > different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric > and these things are also made up of other things > and if you try and take these things down to the > smallest of particales all you would find is empty > space. There is no chair and > there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a > nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on > too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in > if you don't want to sit on the ground! So what is the ontological status (Hi Joop :-)) of memory? Is memory real? Are its objects real? Is memory other than its object(s)? Kind Regards Herman 46753 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. lbidd2 Tep: "I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience?" Hi Tep, I read it with interest but don't have anything to say. It's helpful to have the book because many questions that may arise are answered later. Also clarifications from the Thai version are very helpful. Keep up the good work!! Larry 46754 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:32pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/18/05 7:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Howard, Bear in mind that the heart sutra is practiced by millions of Buddhists as a rote sutra recitation, for the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom(?!). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- If all the Buddhists reciting it had the same understanding of the heart sutra as you do then I would have no issue with it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, unfortunately things are not optimal. Dukkha, ya know! ;-)) ------------------------------------- If the Heart Sutra were recorded as the poetic utterance of a highly cultivated being, then it would probably be one of my favorite works as well. But I find it really distasteful and counterproductive to attribute that work to the Buddha using supernormal powers to induce the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara to belittle Sariputta. Not cool at all. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see that as a belittling, but I sympathize with your unhappiness at the presentation of Mahayana sutras as Buddha word. Not all Mahayanists see it that way, though. I doubt that Thich Nhat Hanh does, for example. (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word either, though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) ---------------------------------------- For advanced practioners with highly developed Samadhi and theoretical understanding of the dhamma, I can appreciate the values of the heart sutra. For the average Buddhist, the heart sutra is at best a very nice poetic work and a mental exercise of cleverness. -fk =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary on Breathing Treatise - Section iv, no 2. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry and Nina - > I read it with interest but don't have anything to say. It's helpful to > have the book because many questions that may arise are answered later. > Also clarifications from the Thai version are very helpful. Keep up the > good work!! > > Larry I am pleased that you do, Larry. Yes, more clarifications from the Thai version are promised. Thanks. With appreciation and respect, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this > Breathing Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the > general audience?" > > Hi Tep, > 46756 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Lisa and everyone, > > I think the following is a very good description. > > >Kind of like a chair and the idea of a chair are > > empty of chair essence, it is constructed from many > > different things such as wood, nails, glue and fabric > > and these things are also made up of other things > > and if you try and take these things down to the > > smallest of particales all you would find is empty > > space. There is no chair and > > there is no chair in the word chair either. Just a > > nice thing to hook memory, thoughts and habits on > > too is my guess. Oh and a chair is also nice to sit in > > if you don't want to sit on the ground! > > So what is the ontological status (Hi Joop :-)) of memory? Is memory > real? Are its objects real? Is memory other than its object(s)? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman, Your questions tickle my fancy! Plus no social obligations this weekend and I have time to scribble, I hope you don't mind. I'm not being flippant, I respect Dhamma and how odd your questions fit in with my reading. Oh blast it I have to go look up ontological which just doesn't seem to fit in a Buddhist context. Be right back..... Principles instead of attributes. Defining what is absolute which cannot be described as it is but only through it's attributes. Existence...very difficult to define! In philosophy, ontology (from the Greek ?? = being and ????? = word/speech) is the most fundamental branch of metaphysics. It studies being or existence as well as the basic categories thereof -- trying to find out what entities and what types of entities exist. Ontology has strong implications for the conceptions of reality. I can never remember what ontology means and have to go look it up every time it's mentioned...lol I am not very good at metaphysics it brings up the cursing sankharas :P the word 'kha' drives me absolutely batty!!!! I cursed 28 times trying to understand zero in a metaphysical context...One of Rene Guenon's books if I remember correctly he is a very cool writer nothing warm and fuzzy to hold onto. Okay lets have a go at what 'I' think memory is. I saw memory in mediation as patterns held together by habit and desire. They are not stable and are easily influenced by my physical health. I don't know if the mind is local but the brain is here right now and online it may be like my pc and it stores what is happening within it on it's hard disk and that is my individual memory. The mind is the network of pcs and other devices that are part of this network. What the mind is I have no clue really, but I bet it's one giant index! Hahaha bhavanga http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bhavanga_sota.htm Bhavanga (bhava-anga), which, in the canonical works, is mentioned twice or thrice in the Patthaana, is explained in the Abhidhamma commentaries as the foundation or condition (kaarana) of existence (bhava), as the sine qua non of life, having the nature of a process, lit. a flux or stream (sota). Herein, since time immemorial, all impressions and experiences are, as it were, stored up, or better said, are functioning, but concealed as such to - full consciousness, from where however they occasionally emerge as subconscious phenomena and approach the threshold of full consciousness, or crossing it become fully conscious. This so-called 'subconscious life-stream' or undercurrent of life is that by which might be explained the faculty of memory, paranormal psychic phenomena, mental and physical growth, karma and rebirth. etc. An alternative rendering is 'life-continuum'. Wouldn't an index be a better discription? Or am I off in the wilderness again without a clue? I think the foundation or bhavanga is the index which is a complete memory of all things that happen. Bhavanga is like a list of all things, impressions and experiences but it is hidden just like the google index. All we see is the surface of the Google or life site it's graphics and fonts or our sensual experience. That is just like existence all we see is the surface of it. We type in a random word or we act in a random or thoughtless way and google or life brings us back what ever is listed on the index that our typed word or action brings up. Just like my desktop search indexes all the files on my pc. It is a flux because or stream because there is constant additions being added as more information is added just like files are added daily to my pc as I work on it. I love Googles desktop search I no longer have to make so many folders and subfolders (hahaha). Just like the google index lifes index is hidden and all we see is the google site where we search. Same with life all we see is what we can sense. We may think we are having psychic happenings when we remember past lives or future events but actually we are doing a "do you think your lucky search" on the index of existence. My memory is faulty at best, I need a better search engine or maybe I need to use more precise words to bring up the correct inforamtion! So Herman, what do you think memory is in a Buddhist context? With Metta, Lisa 46757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:00pm Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only lbidd2 Lisa: "In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: Hi Lisa, I also share your point of view, but as I become advanced in age with death rapidly approaching, and I reflect on how important the Buddha's dispensation has been not just for my happiness but the world, it adds more perspective on the importance of keeping the core teachings alive for future generations. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I toss and turn every night worrying about the dhamma ending age. It doesn't obsess my mind. I carry on my practice with full understanding that everything including the dhamma will eventually disappear. That's the nature of these 5 aggregates. But how ungrateful and disrespectful it would be for me to not make every effort to keep the dhamma alive, considering the heroic sacrifices of so many Buddhists before us. Dear Larry,..." Hi Lisa, I think you meant "Dear Frank". I agree with you that the best way to guard the Dhamma is to be a good student. That starts out with lots of individualistic style but in the end they all end up the same: wide open. Larry 46758 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Lisa, Thanks so much for this post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. It set me thinking on a number of tangents. Oh, rainy Sundays have their use, don't they? I thought you made many useful comments, especially about googling, indexing and unconscious memory. I'll snip the whole post, bar the last line. I hope that's OK :-) > So Herman, what do you think memory is in a Buddhist context? > I think of memory, outside a Buddhist context, as both the bones and the flesh of our existences, whatever that may be. Memory is at least three-fold, conscious memory, unconscious memory and non-conscious memory. You have addressed the first two, I'll spend a bit of time on the last one. Non-conscious memory is the same as information. Below are some definitions of how I would use the term information. Information is a representation of a state of affairs which will allow the re-formation and trans-formation of that state of affairs. As in the case of DNA. No mind involved. Information is a pattern or cycle. No mind involved. Information is the opposing trend in systems that tend to greater disorder, by reducing the uncertainty of that system (i.e. introducing predictability into that system). For example, a puddle may inform of an earlier rain shower. A coal deposit may inform of a swamped forest millions of years ago. In a Buddhist context, I do not think the concept of inanimate information had any currency in Gautama's time. Which I can live with :-) I think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. Kind Regards Herman 46759 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > Kind Regards > Herman Hello Herman, Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna receives almost no attention? My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. metta, Chris 46760 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Christine, Good to hear from you. == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > Hello Herman, > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > receives almost no attention? > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > == I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) receives almost no attention in the Canon. All the best Herman > metta, > Chris 46761 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories egberdina Hi Chris and everyone, Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text available on line anywhere? The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Good to hear from you. > > == > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > receives almost no attention? > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > == > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > > > > metta, > > Chris 46762 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Herman, Well, you could be right - I'm a little out of practice - haven't been around much lately :-) Though I see sanna is listed in the Useful Posts as memory, perception .. and sati as awareness A quick look brings up this post from Htoo and from Nina on sati: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38028 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 and a couple of dictionary definitions: memory : (f.) sati. (nt.) anussaraṇa || right memory: (f.) sammāsati. perception : (f.) saññā. (nt.) vijānana. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ So ... still confused about similarities and differences. Hope you are getting the rain? - drizzling down here at the moment, and I'm wishing I'd cleaned the leaves out of the gutters. Tanks need the water. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Good to hear from you. > > == > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the entire > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > receives almost no attention? > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > == > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > receives almost no attention in the Canon. 46763 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Acquisition of Fuel ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Continuation and Prolongation of Misery: Friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as permanent, as lasting, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure, they thereby all stimulate craving! Stimulating craving they long, thirsts and hankers, thereby inducing acquisition of sense desires, acquisition of mental defilements, acquisition of intentions, hopes, wishes and planning, and acquisition of the 5 clusters of clinging! By nurturing uptake of these acquisitions of fuel for becoming, fuel for existence, they provoking continuation! Thus provoking prolongation, they are not freed from birth, ageing, and death! They are not released from sorrow, depression, despair, misery, pain, frustration, discontent & hopelessness. I tell you: They are not freed from neither present nor future suffering...!!! But friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as impermanent, as transient, as suffering, as no-self, as a disease, as danger, as fearful, as an empty terror, they thereby all reduce craving. When thus having gradually wholly eliminated all craving, I tell you: They are thereby freed from all Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 107-112 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46764 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Herman, Do you have Nyanaponika "Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Exploration of Consciousness and Time" ? I can't find my copy at the moment to check - but see the paragraph beginning "Nyanaponika's two core essays are prefaced by three shorter pieces" in Rupert Gethin's review in the Journal of Buddhist Ethics: http://www.jbe.gold.ac.uk/7/gethin001.html I'll have a look on line - but don't expect to find it. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Chris and everyone, > > Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text > available on line anywhere? > > The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the > Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > Good to hear from you. > > > > == > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > I > > > think there might be a rough equivalence between memory and sanna, > > > > which receives almost no attention in the entire tipitaka. Which is > > > > very curious, considering how it is our entire existence. > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > > > > > Hello Herman, > > > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no attention in the > entire > > > tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence between memory and sanna > > > receives almost no attention? > > > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is perception. > > > I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the Tipitaka. > > > > > == > > I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but I am very happy > > to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps in the Tipitaka about > > sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, to > > conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the Buddha) > > receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > 46765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion nilovg Hi Larry, awaiting Sarah's answer next week, I just take out your Q. about ignorance, since it concerns our recent posting. As to experiencing and the object, this is more in Howard's department, phenomenology. Personally I think that experiencing must be something that is experienced, but this was discussed before. Yes, object is a condiiton for citta and cetasika, by way of being their object. It is correct to say that nama is an experience and rupa does not experience. I would like to go into your last question. It is a good point. op 19-06-2005 00:59 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: ... how does ignorance function with desire? > When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring? ------------- N: Returning to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163: reviewing my conclusion: ***** Returning to your question: < When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring?> --------- N: Now, when I answer according to the text: ignorance does not know that there is desire for a merely insignificant dhamma that falls away immediately. It is foolish to be attached to an object that is so shortlived, but we are foolish, and that is ignorance. We keep on being attached to all objects, because we are in the cycle. Ignorance conditions kamma that produces rebirth. I answer according to the book, but the direct realization is far away. It is really difficult to penetrate the true characteristic of ignorance, we have so much ignorance about our ignorance. Please hang on if things are not clear. Nina. 46766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] general remarks on Breathing Treatise - nilovg Dear Tep, op 18-06-2005 21:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the > Breathing Treatise. ------- N: I do not intend to give a series, that is too much for me. Only little bits here and there. I could also insert from Kh. Sujin I am listening to almost every day, but I have to think where to put it, in an appropriate place. ------- T: I also appreciate reading your comments to the > presentation whenever you have time to write. ----------- N: You give a long post once a week, but how about giving shorter ones in the course of one week, cutting it up. I understand that breaking off is sometimes difficult because one may lose sight of the context. People tend to skip long posts. Sarah had a few remarks I did not keep, because I had just returned and too many posts. What about going over them one at a time, looking at the context and seeing how we can make additions. I am glad to help. ----------- T: I wonder how many DSG members really pay attention to this Breathing > Treatise series. Do you still think it is useful for the general audience? --------- N: Listen to Larry: keep up the good work. This is part of the Sutta Tipitaka, Khuddhaka Nikaya. It is useful. The text is difficult, but difficulties are there to be overcome! You did your best adding explanations to words. When people do not react it does not mean that they are not reading it. But it takes already some study to be able to ask questions. We miss Htoo, don't we? Another reason that people do not react is that this list is very busy, there is so much to read. So, let us begin with Sarah's points. With appreciation, Nina. 46767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Howard, I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. Nina. op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > either, > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) 46768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan With my usual apology to all for the late replies. Dan D. wrote: > Yup. I don't know very much about Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism, but > Buddhism and reformation Christianity share the core doctrine of the > tilakkana, albeit expressed in different words. That may well be so from your perspective, but then if it were the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that follower of that doctrine could become arahants, since final enlightenment is marked by (or immediately preceded by) the full penetration of the 3 characteristics of conditioned dhammas. Jon 46769 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran jonoabb Hi KenH kenhowardau wrote: >Yes, but I am questioning the idea of acting on *any* understanding >of the Dhamma. I have been trying to see things from a slightly >different angle - extending my understanding of 'no control' to new >heights. :-) Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything until I had a >clearer picture of what I was talking about. > No, I think this discussion is very useful. I would put it this way: that it would not be correct to assume that acting on one's understanding of the Dhamma was kusala. This is because one's understanding is of course only partial, and also because only panna can know whether the present mind-state is kusala or akusala. To think that 'I'm doing such-and-such kind of kusala, therefore this must be a kusala mind-state', is just a deduction (and given the very strong latent tendencies for akusala that we all have, is likely to be an incorrect one ;-)). >------------------------------------------------ >J: > like thinking it's wrong to dig in the garden because you know >it's going to be the cause of loss of life and thus against the first >precept. >----------------------------------------------- > >That's a good example. The wisest conventional solution I have seen >so far has been to tone down my lifestyle by degrees: Move from the >farm, where there was a lot of digging and other unavoidable killing, >to the suburbs where there is less. Then, as my wants become fewer, >move to an inner-city apartment without so much as a pot plant, and, >eventually, not even have my own kitchen. > I thought with the termite situation you were trying to make the distinction between acting with the intention of taking life, on the one hand, and acting knowing that loss of life was likely (or even bound) to follow but without any actual intention of taking life, on the other. The latter could not be a breach of the precept because of the absence of one of the necessary ingredients. I mentioned digging in the garden because I thought it might be a clearer example of that distinction. My own view is that while there are certain lifestyle choices that make keeping the precepts somewhat easier, in the end it comes down to one's understanding and not one's social circumstances or environment. I am not making plans for any further retreat/withdrawal from where I am now ;-)) >------------------------------------------------------ >J: > Would this be the sort of thing you were meaning by your >reference to the house full of termites? >------------------------------------------------------ > >As I was saying, I still don't have this perspective clear in my >mind. But, yes, I think there would be wrong understanding in any >Buddhist householder who agonised over fumigating his termite- >infested house. > Of course, the wrong understanding is there whether we fumigate or not, and that's why it is said that there is no 'right' answer to these situational dilemmas. Jon 46770 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:05am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James (I lost your message due to a problem with my mail program. Sorry for the delay.) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Jon: The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the > arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is > merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that > action with the idea that insight will result > > James: No, they are not both likely to do that. You are guessing and > putting forth a subjective interpretation as fact. Even in the > Buddha's time, when monks were given a meditation/reflection subject, > they didn't automatically assume that attention to that subject was > going to bring about insight. Sometimes they would go back to the > Buddha for another subject because they thought the first one wasn't > going to work. Jon, they do not believe in rituals just because they > believe in the possible effectiveness of certain meditation subjects. The question here is (I think -- please correct me if I've misunderstood you): Would the idea that 'samatha bhavana, while not necessary for vipassana bhavana, is nevertheless conducive to vipassana bhavana' be belief in rites and rituals? Let me put it this way. To my understanding, whatever one's present level of samatha development may be, insight can (potentially) be developed at the present moment, if the teachings have been correctly understood. So to think that there should first be the development of (more) samatha, or that if there were more highly developed samatha now there would be more insight, would be to focus in the wrong direction. > Jon: or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, > the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in > rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. > > James: Well, again you are stating your personal opinion and there is > no reason I should believe your personal opinion in this matter. You > need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are > stating and I will believe you. I'll keep this in mind and let you know when I find a suitable passage. > Jon: I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of > our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this > lifetime). > > James: Good. Now, if you would just realize that the effort applied > to practice is more or less directly proportional to the level of > development, we would be in business! ;-)) OK, you asked for it: "You need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are stating and I will believe you." ;-)) > Jon: However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana > Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here > -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 > anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to > hear more on your thinking about this. > > James: I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the > Satipatthana Sutta, the whole discourse, was addressed to bhikkhus and > bhikkhunis. The Buddha didn't give teachings like that to lay folk. But you did draw a distinction between the section on the body and the other 3 sections. I'd be interested to know the basis for that. (If this is another of those areas that's too hot to handle, I'll understand ;-)) Jon 46771 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >T: It does not fit any good purpose to "designate" a special time for >dhatus reflection, Jon. >Since the Great Teacher did not specify a "particular bodily action or >posture" for the dhatus meditation, then it is up to us. > Yes, no special time or place, posture or activity, is necessary. And I would also say it is something that can occur spontaneously, without any premeditation. For example, it could occur while we are thinking about some part of the teachings we are reading, but not with the idea of having that kind of reflection. >T: When there is sati, there is also sampajanna. There is no >sampajanna if there is no sati. When I contemplate on the arising and >passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are >developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according >to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the concentration >that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". > Well obviously the concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment will not be experienced until that moment arrives. But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. >T: Do you believe that the mindfulness that is conditioned by >such "hearing the teachings", "reflecting.." and "appreciating..." is >strong enough to be called samma-sati that can further condition "the >concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment"? [All >the quoted words are yours.] > As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also accompanied by samma-samadhi, and it is the gradual accrual of such moments that leads eventually (but a long, long time later) to enlightenment. >Jon: ... the whole of the section on kayanupasana describes >mindfulness of rupas. For example, if there is mindfulness of a rupa >while walking, this would be something that is described in the section >on the modes of deportment. > >T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? > Good question. I would say that while walking there can be sati having as its object a dhamma belonging to any of the 4 arousings/foundations, and likewise while standing, sitting or lying. In other words, there is not meant to be a particular correlation between a certain posture and a certain object of satipatthana. Jon 46772 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, > Quite nicely put. I had only pencilled you into my "evil" book, but > I think I might erase you now. Okay? (-: Thanks, but don't be too hasty. From one way of looking at it, all worldlings should all be in your "evil" book. Wrong view, doubt and ignorance are appalling things, and yet we have them all. It's a wonder we have the nerve to show our faces! :-) Ken H 46773 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... dacostacharles Hi Sara, You asked what do I understand by the following terms: 'form/physical bodies' (rupas) and 'intellect' (sankhara)? a.. Form is the physical body, and all that makes it (flesh, organs cells); I also remember some one saying all sense objects. b.. Intellect is the ability to concoct, understand, ...; personally speaking, it is the process by which we create, modify, and destroy links/connections between events. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 08 June, 2005 09:30 Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sara, > When I said you two, I was referring to the two engaged in this thread > (I will try to remember names next time). > > When I said "What is real is unimportant." I was referring to what I > thought LIBIDD... or UPASAKA... had said. ... S: Well, that gave me two clues:-). Larry & Howard. ... > I started the thread because I wanted a list in plain English what was > listed as real (a reality) in the different abdharamas (I know this > group is isolated to the Theravadan version). > > You said, "... cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and > nibbana. This is the > same as the khandhas and nibbana." > > By this do you mean nibbana and the 5 aggregates (i.e., form/physical > bodies, memory/perception, feelings, intellect, and consciousness); and > that these are the only things real, according to the Theravadan > abdharama? .... S: Yes. Not just according to the Abhidhamma, but according to the Tipitaka and to what can be directly realised. btw, you've translated rupas as 'form/physical bodies' and sankhara khandha as 'intellect'. What do you understand by these terms or realities? 46774 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I have always liked that name (I wonder way -- I have no close friends or family with that name, yet it has an interesting appeal). This attachment to your name is an event (this makes "you" and "me" unimportant), your name is an event, the tree, the rock, the day at work, jealousy, love, etc. are all events too (something that happens). When I first learned of the "no"-selves concept, I was taught to view every thing as events that arise, ... instead of selves that ... However events are fuel for other events. In this sense, even Arhats can be the cause or effect of events. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 08 June, 2005 09:37 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? Hi Charles, You wrote several posts addressed to Htoo, but he said he won't have internet access for several months, so you may wish to make a note of your posts and re-send them on his return. Let me just comment on a note in this one which was also addressed to me: --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Sarah & Htoo > > Sarah, When Htoo stated: > > "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment > events." > > You replied with: > > "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or > akusala?" > > Htoo then replied with: > > "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of > ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage > of the whole circle temporarily." > AND > "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa > and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and > this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of > satipatthaana." > AND > "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." > > I have to ask and state: > > What is Satipatthaana? .... S: The path which leads to the eradication of ignorance through awareness and understanding of realities. .... > And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am > off base: > > Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still > events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO > continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated > (give rise to other events). ... S: Yes I think I agree (though I'm not sure about the use of 'events'), no new fuel, however. Also, when ignorance is completely eradicated, no further rebirth at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 46775 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self dacostacharles Hi Venky, That depends on one's definition. Based on my definition, what I see in the mirror is my self, but I can not touch it though the mirror. However the mirror can guide "my" hand and eyes to touch my self (even though it is not needed). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: V V Kulkarni To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 06 June, 2005 07:24 Subject: Re: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi! All The duality of self can be explained by the analogy of looking into the mirror. What you see is you but that is not actually you and you can never see you. Best regards Venky Charles DaCosta wrote: Hi All, I like the attached post, so I think it is worth repeating. I would like to add: ................. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 15:15 Subject: [dsg] Obsessed Viewpoint on Self Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) is a viewpoint".>, according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Tep 46776 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:06am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma egberdina Hi Nina, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I am also following with interest the discussions between you and Lodewijk about neither of you existing. LOL. It reminds me of the many round-the-dinner-table-discussions I have had with my children about the nature of existence. I put a stop to those discussions when it was clear that one of my sons was distressed by his own understanding of emptiness. One does not feed meat to a baby. Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. Please keep us uptodate with the discussions with Lodewijk about both your non-existences. I think they are hilarious. :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) > The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. > You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher > of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. > Nina. > op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > > either, > > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) 46777 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:18am Subject: Trim reminder time again ! dsgmods Dear Friends, Recently there have been quite a few messages that have contained long passages of untrimmed material from an earlier post or posts. Members are asked to kindly trim out all material from earlier posts that is not necessary for an understanding of their own comments. (If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you can assume that other members will have seen it.) The complete Guidelines for DSG can be found in the 'files' section on the homepage. Thanks for your cooperation Jon and Sarah PS Any comments or questions off-list, please. 46778 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Herman > > Hi again > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do not like > > > to hear > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the following. > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I think I will pass. But thanks for asking. Metta, Phil 46779 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Phil, I just happen to be online most of this day. I will quieten down again shortly. Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. Ciao Herman PS do you use a qwerty keyboard? They're good, aren't they :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Herman > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do > not like > > > > to hear > > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the > following. > > > > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues > are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I > think I will pass. But thanks for asking. > > Metta, > Phil 46780 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:00am Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > I am also following with interest the discussions between you and > Lodewijk about neither of you existing. LOL. > > Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) > will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there > certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. > > Please keep us uptodate with the discussions with Lodewijk about both > your non-existences. I think they are hilarious. :-) > > _________ Dear Herman, You are right, the Buddha (the Tathaagata), the Teacher of Abhidhamma, said Samyutta Nikaya XXII.85 "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." Yamaka Sutta (translation by Venerable Dhammanando). RobertK 46781 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman {Attn. Phil, Howard, Sarah} - I liked what you wrote to Phil : "Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you". Thinking that one does not exist or that there is only emptiness everywhere - there is no Nina, no Lodewijk - and yet one accumulates kusala, avoids akusala, and practices spreading loving-kindness into the emptiness- it sounds like a thought of a confused person. Does the Buddha-sasana exist? Does mankind exist? Do we have parents? When asked what emptiness means, some people say it means anatta - do they mean 'not self', 'no self' (no souls), both or neither one? Other people say, in emptiness there are no souls, no beings, no persons, etc. - they probably mean there is 'no self'. Yet, there is another group of people who insist that 'emptiness' means nothing exists, even dhammas or Buddhas do not exist. Some say emptiness is different from non-existence. I believe, based on my understanding of what the Buddha taught, that all khandhas, ayatanas and dhatus are empty of ownership and they lead to suffering (dukkha) if one clings to them as 'me, mine, my self'. In other words, all dhammas are anatta. This is the real meaning of anatta that does not contradict with the practice of loving kindness and kusala accumulation for the purpose of setting oneself free from sufferings in the long run. What do you say, Herman? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > I just happen to be online most of this day. I will quieten down again > shortly. Thanks for your reply. I don't know whether you think you > exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think > you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why > people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. > Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. > > Ciao > > > Herman > PS do you use a qwerty keyboard? They're good, aren't they :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Herman > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > > > > > > Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, people do > > not like > > > > > to hear > > > > > > that there is no person. There is no Nina, no Lodewijk. > > > > > > > > > > If you feel inclined, I would highly value your answers to the > > following. > > > > > > > Well, having read your comment that you think these issues > > are "hilarious" (they are serious enough for the people involved) I > > think I will pass. But thanks for asking. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 46782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] general remarks on Breathing Treatise - buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It is very kind of you to write to me about what can be done to improve the presentation of the Breathing Treatise. You are right that continuity/flow has been my key objective of the posting, but the consequence is a longer-than-average message that only a few may be interested in reading it. Okay, I'll cut it down and continue to add comments form the Thai version plus mine (when I am sure it is correct). I appreciate your suggestions and the continuing support. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 18-06-2005 21:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > Thank you for the helpful commentary series you have initiated for the > > Breathing Treatise. > ------- > N: I do not intend to give a series, that is too much for me. Only little > bits here and there. I could also insert from Kh. Sujin I am listening to > almost every day, but I have to think where to put it, in an appropriate > place. > ------- > T: I also appreciate reading your comments to the > > presentation whenever you have time to write. > ----------- 46783 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/19/05 3:21:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I kept a straight face :- l , but I am glad about your valuing it :-)) --------------------------------- Howard: I'm glad that you are glad! ;-) --------------------------------- The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. ------------------------------ Howard: Well, I would say that reality is within and around me. :-) ------------------------------- You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. ------------------------------ Howard: I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with great reverence and gratefulness! ------------------------------ Nina. op 19-06-2005 02:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > (Likewise, I don't think that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka is Buddha word > either, > though it is presented as such. It has enormous value, IMO, nevertheless.) ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. nilovg Hi Tep, I just take out one point at a time from your former Q. As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the threefold division of the eightfold Path. It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. Nina. op 11-06-2005 21:22 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Adhicitta [adhi + citta] "higher thought", meditation, contemplation, > usually in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. > > I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is > practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta > sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. 46785 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - One nice thing about you that always entertains me is that regardless of how many times I have tried to explain something to you, if you already have a fixed belief in something else (normally, the opposite), then you will 'manage' to turn it around back to what you believe in again (and again, and again ...). This may be interpreted by other people as stubbornness, or you may think of it as a characteristic of a strong and successful leader! Take President Bush as an example. :-) >Tep: When I contemplate on the arising and >passing away of a rupa or a nama, both sati and sampajanna are >developed and led to samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight), according >to my experience. But I don't have the experience of "the >concentration that is necessary for the moment of enlightenment". > Jon: But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. Tep: We are in agreement here (but not because of your strong 'leadership' :-)) that samatha and vipassana can be yoked together. A separate samatha practice is seen, for example, in the Kayagatasati Sutta. But I am not saying that only samatha practice is necessary and sufficient. ------------------------------ Jon: As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also accompanied by samma-samadhi, ... ... Tep: I have to confess that there have been several posts on 'samma- samadhi' here, but I am still confused as to what the DSGers understand as samma samadhi. Can you give me a quick description? Samadhi is concentration. But what kind of concentration is samma- samadhi? Can anyone get samma-samadhi from reflecting over the five aggregates(or any dhamma of your choice) while in the bath room, walking on a road, driving a car, or doing any daily activity? Can samma-samadhi arise without the support of the other seven Path factors? ------------------------------- > >T: Pardon me? What is the object of sati while you are walking? > Jon: Good question. I would say that while walking there can be sati having as its object a dhamma belonging to any of the 4 arousings/foundations, and likewise while standing, sitting or lying. In other words, there is not meant to be a particular correlation between a certain posture and a certain object of satipatthana. Tep: Good answer! So you say that any one of the four foundations of mindfulness is equally good as the object of sati for any body posture in the present moment. If this simple answer is correct, then why did the Buddha talk in details about the various activities for training sati- sampajanna through the 4 foundations [DN 22]? Why didn't he "save his breaths" by simply saying as follows -- Monks, contemplate on any of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of the day, wherever you go, and you will gain samma-sati? It seems that our dialogue will go on and on, and on ...until you drop your strong leadership and look at dhamma for the sake of dhamma. Karuna, , Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 46786 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Herman > I don't know whether you think you > exist or not, and it doesn't really matter, because as long as I think > you do, I'll keep trying to communicate with you. But it beats me why > people who don't think they exist insist on signing of with a name. > Habit, maybe? I'm sure there's a whole chapter about that somewheres. Ph: There is subtlety involved in Dhamma, Herman. (See SN 1:1 for the prime example.) You are oversimplifying things, either out of mischief, or just plain thickness. I suspect the former, because you seem to be clever enough to understand that when the Buddha teaches that people are to be understood as elemental components (see any number of suttas - it is not just Abhidhamma, that's a silly misconception) he is not denying that they exist in a conventional sense, which is certainly real to the conventional mind, only that they do not exist in an ultimate sense, one that few will come to understand directly in this lifetime. Meanwhile, in the company of people who *respect* the Buddha's teaching, we can develop our intellectual understanding of this very subtle, liberating teaching, which might help set the stage for a more direct understanding. So it's really silly and unhelpful of you to mock this process. The point of the Buddha's teaching is to develop detachment, not to describe the world in terms that can be easily confirmed by the rational mind. Are you confusing the Buddha and Einstein? There is intuition involved, sensitivity, subtlety, subjectivity, surrender. It's a bit of a game, really, and the patient player wins. There aren't many patient players in the age of the internet, methinks. Anyways, listen, as I said a few months ago, there is really no point in our having Dhamma discussions, because I respect Abhidhamma and you don't. Fair enough - it's not everyone's cup of tea. Best of luck in your search for peace. Metta, Phil 46787 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories foamflowers Hi Chris so nice to met you and you dont post enough your writing is very clear and cuts very nicely clean and quick. Waves at Herman... Sorry Frank for getting you mixed up with Larry who is one of my Favorites, that must mean I am becoming attached to you as well, watch out! ;)) Where is Htoo, I miss him!? > > > >Chris: Hello Herman, > > > > > > > > Are you meaning that memory receives almost no > > > >attention in the entire tipitaka ... or the rough equivalence > > > > between memory and sanna receives almost no attention? > > > > > > > > My understanding is that Sati is memory and that sanna is > > > > perception. I believe there to be plenty about Sati in the > > > >Tipitaka. > > > ====================== > > >Herman: I "remember" sati to be awareness or mindfullness, but > > >I am very happy to be wrong about this. I agree there is heaps > > >in the Tipitaka about sati. Do you remember the Buddha :-) > > > > > > My meaning was that memory (which allows me to type this post, > > >to conceive of me and you, and to concoct something about the > > > Buddha) receives almost no attention in the Canon. > > > > > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > > > > metta, > > > > Chris Before I posted to Herman on memory I did a bit of research and dug into old notes: The Buddha said, "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way difficult to attain. " Deep learning here refers to being well-read. Ananda, for instance, was fore most in learning. He could be called deeply learned. But someone who has only studied the Dharma and has not contemplated it as it is taught will never be able to understand the principles it contains. He relies on only rote memory and intellectual ability. Even if he has a sharp memory and can memorize a sutra, he won get any response. If he fails to contemplate the meaning and fails to cultivate according to it, it will ultimately be of no use to him. Love of the Way " refers to cultivators who know that the Way is really excellent, but who don't realize that originally the Way is just their own mind. It is not apart from their own mind. Those people go searching outside their mind for another Way. Although they long for and cherish the Way, yet if they seek outside, they will go wrong. That makes the Way difficult to obtain. " By seeking outside, they will not understand the Way, nor will they be able to encounter it. Since they won encounter it, even less will they understand the Way. The longer they run, the farther away they will get. L: Some of my favorite words that I have googled on the cosmic index are : Mukha, sati, nana and sankhara....samma: When I first heard the Four Noble Truths long ago (17 years now, I thought it was 15...wow time flies). I asked my teacher, "What does 'right' mean when one says 'right' view. My Dhamma teacher is from Korea and although he knew Sanskrit and Pali like the back of his hand he did not know English very well. Not well enough to give the subtle answers I needed as a guide so I was pretty much on my own with those kinds of questions. Sunim did give me many books from the Pali Text Soceity and years latter I finally found out what samma means, and it does not mean right turn....lol I researched memory before I scribbled the note to Herman. For Herman===>Sanna : 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the third khandha . – I am sure you already know this and much more too. 2. sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensations, awareness (nibbana); (sannaya uparodhana dukkhakkhayo hoti; expl das "kamasanna"); (rupa perception of material qualities). 3. Consciousness.; (nanatta c. of diversity: see nanatta); is previous to nana; a constituent part of nama; according to later teaching differs from vinnana and panna only as a child's perceiving differs from (a) an adult's, (b) an expert's;. -- nevasanna--nasanna neither consciousness nor unconsciousness. conception, idea, notion ( "concept rather than percept") Anussarati to remember, recollect, have memory of, bear in mind; be aware Patissati : mindfulness, remembrance, memory Patibhaga : counterpart, likeness, resemblance (nimitta, imitative mental reflex, memory--image) Parimukha : parimukhan satin upatthapeti "set up his memory in front" (to remember the source, mukha also means source I think, like the source of a river or the mouth is the source of words) Pari ( (indecl.) [Idg. *peri to verbal root *per, denoting completion of a forward movement (as in Sk. pr 2,piparti. to bring across, promote; cp. Vedic prc to satisfy, prnati to fill, fulfill. See also P. para). Cp. Vedic pari, Av. pairi, Gr. pe/ri , Lat. per (also in adj. per --magnus very great); Obulg. pariy round about, Lith. per through, (intensifying prefix), Goth. fair, Ohg. fir, far=Ger. ver--] prefix, signifying (lit.) around, round about; (fig.) all round, i. e. completely, altogether. The use as prep. (with acc.=against, w. abl.=from) has entirely disappeared in Pali (but see below 1a). As adv. "all round" it is only found at J VI. 198 (pari metri causa; comb with samantato). (I have no clue why I put Pari in the cluster of interesting words except when you remember you move or bring forward what was forgotten) But memory is not the orginal just a construct so the bringing forward would be like moving something that is not real a dublicate.) Mukha [Vedic mukha, fr. Idg. *mu, onomat., cp. Lat. mu facere, Gr. muka/omai , Mhg. mugen, Lat. mugio to moo (of cows), to make the sound "moo";Ohg. mawen to cry, muckazzen to talk softly; also Gr. mu_qos word, "myth"; Ohg.mula=Ger. maul; Ags. mule snout, etc. Vedic muka silent, dumb=Lat. mutus=E. mute] L: The source or mouth face could have many meanings symbolic, metaphysical and literal, I think it fits into memory as well. 1. The mouth (with ref. to the long tongue, pahuta--jivha, of the Buddha or Mahapurisa); (uttana clear mouthed, i. e. easy to understand);(puti), (mukhena). 2. The face (unnaja m.); karoti to make a face (i. e. grimace), adho face downward. upari; assu with tearful face; see assu. -- dum sad or unfriendly looking scurrilous; bhadra brightfaced; ruda, crying 3. Entrance, mouth (of a river); aya entrance (lit. opening), i. e. cause or means of income; ukka the opening of a furnace, a goldsmith's smelting pot, ubhato--mukha having 2 openings. sandhi opening of the cleft Hence 4. Cause, ways, means, reason, by way of by way of a gift (danamukhe); (bahuhi mukhehi). -- apaya cause of ruin or loss. 5. front part, front, top, in isa of the carriage pole. 6. the top of anything, front, head, best part, topmost, foremost (aggihutta--mukha yanna), (nakkhattanan mukhan cando); (=uttaman, mukha--bhutan va).-- mokkha & pamokkha. A poetical instr. mukhasa is found at as if the nom. were mukho (s--stem). -- The abl. mukha is used as adv. "in front of, before," in cpd. sam & param, nn --adhana (1) the bit of a bridle; (2) setting of the mouth, i. e. mouth--enclosure, rim of the m.; in m. silitthan a well --connected, well--defined mouth--contour (not with trsl. "opens lightly," but better with note "is well adjusted," where write adhana for adana). --asiya to be eaten by the mouth (mukhena asitabba). Sati : memory , recognition, consciousness; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self--possession, conscience, self--consciousness (sentient is one who is self conscious?) For Chris: Sati : --sampajanna mindfulness and self--possession Samma : --sankappa right resolve, right intention; definition D ii. ; --sati right memory , right mindfulness, self--possession Saraniya: something to be remembered Sarana : protection, shelter, house, sarman Sarana : concomitant with war Sarana : remembrance; --ta (f.) remembering Sarana : reminding, remonstrating with With Metta, Lisa 46788 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:52am Subject: Re: three trainings. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I begin to like your approach to email answering by taking "one point at a time ". It is a better approach (less troublesome) than the popular in- line dialogue that keeps branching out forever. >T: > I can deduce from the Pali meanings that adhicitta anuyutta is > practicing meditation or contemplation for citta-visudhi. And adhicitta > sikkha is for the purpose of samadhi. N: As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the threefold division of the eightfold Path. T: The dictionary also quotes the following sutta passage, " Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) ...." So we should not overlook the role of concentration in bringing out high fruit and blessing. Further, wisdom needs the support of concentration to bring the next level of high fruit and blessing in order to eradicate all asavas. ----------------------------- N: It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. T: Yes, Nina. That's close to what I understand except for a few things. MN 117 sates very clearly that samma-samadhi (defined as the four jhanas in DN 22) is supported by samma-sati (defined as satipatthana in DN 22) and the remaining 6 path factors. Yet the 8 path factors do not bring about arahatta-phala; it takes the 8 Path factors plus samma- nana and samma-vimutti to reach the arahatta-phala <"In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten."> . -------------------------- N: Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. T: Could you please support your statement by means of at least one sutta? Thank you much. By the way, is right awareness = right mindfulness, and right understanding = right view (samma-ditthi)? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I just take out one point at a time from your former Q. > As you say, adhicitta is in combn. with adhisila and adhipanna. > Nyanatiloka dictionary explains that the threefold training refers to the > threefold division of the eightfold Path. > It refers in the suttas to the jhana attainment. But it should be together > with satipatthana, that is awareness of nama and rupa, and this includes jhanafactors as objects of right mindfulness and right understanding. > Otherwise adhicitta would not be of the eightfold Path. > Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma appears. > Nina. 46789 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:15am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- Fk: Yes, but you won't find a sutta in the pali canon where it shows the Buddha giving out amulets or condoning the use of sprinkling holy water and amulets. In fact there is a sutta on right livelihood that prohibits those kinds of activities for monks. The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. There was an interesting discussion on the pali group about the etymology of the term Hinayana. In short, the "hina" is pejorative meaning inferior. If it had simply been a non-pejorative quantitative measure differentiating large(Maha) and relatively smaller, it would have been a different pali word which I can't recall. Maybe Nina or Robert K. remembers. Hina is pejorative and meant to belittle. That said, I still find much value in the Mahayana teachings, I get along just fine with Mahayanists, and despite what it might look like I'm not trying to incite a Mahayana versus Theravada war. I'm simply pointing out the facts that support my assertion of the belittlement of Theravada by mahayana, and if there's any passionate displeasure expressed, the root of it is that I find lying, including white lies up to devious malicious lies, completely filthy and disgusting. Yes, I would lie to Hitler's minions to save the life of Jews I was hiding in my house, but if you ask me if I like your new dress, I'm either going to not answer,say something truthful without indicating whether I like it, change the subject, or literally run away to avoid being trapped with insidious follow up questions that would land me in deeper dilemmas. These days, I hardly even know what kind of Buddhist to classify myself under. As far as I know, every branch of Buddhism would see some of my views as heterodox. I may have to just start my own cult. Part of the charter would read: Mahayana good. Theravada good. Heart sutra good. Right speech good. Lying very very bad. -fk 46790 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Dear Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 1:16:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Howard: Well, Frank, there are all sorts of things that Buddhists do, even including monks providing amulets and sprinkling holy water. ;-) --------------------------------------- Fk: Yes, but you won't find a sutta in the pali canon where it shows the Buddha giving out amulets or condoning the use of sprinkling holy water and amulets. In fact there is a sutta on right livelihood that prohibits those kinds of activities for monks. The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are such sutras. I find them despicable. ------------------------------------ They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. ----------------------------------- Howard: My position is just the opposite, Frank! How long have you known me? ;-) ----------------------------------- From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. ----------------------------------- Howard: I presume you aren't accusing ME of that! ----------------------------------- There was an interesting discussion on the pali group about the etymology of the term Hinayana. In short, the "hina" is pejorative meaning inferior. If it had simply been a non-pejorative quantitative measure differentiating large(Maha) and relatively smaller, it would have been a different pali word which I can't recall. Maybe Nina or Robert K. remembers. Hina is pejorative and meant to belittle. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. --------------------------------------- That said, I still find much value in the Mahayana teachings, I get along just fine with Mahayanists, and despite what it might look like I'm not trying to incite a Mahayana versus Theravada war. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, very good. I could have truthfully uttered exactly the same sentence, Frank. I am a Theravadin who finds much of value in Mahayana (and much there that is a disvalue). ---------------------------------------- I'm simply pointing out the facts that support my assertion of the belittlement of Theravada by mahayana, and if there's any passionate displeasure expressed, the root of it is that I find lying, including white lies up to devious malicious lies, completely filthy and disgusting. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I simply don't find the Heart Sutra to fall into this category. Many Mahayana sutras do not. ---------------------------------------- Yes, I would lie to Hitler's minions to save the life of Jews I was hiding in my house, but if you ask me if I like your new dress, I'm either going to not answer,say something truthful without indicating whether I like it, change the subject, or literally run away to avoid being trapped with insidious follow up questions that would land me in deeper dilemmas. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, me too, on both counts. I don't quite get how this fits into this discussion, though. --------------------------------- These days, I hardly even know what kind of Buddhist to classify myself under. As far as I know, every branch of Buddhism would see some of my views as heterodox. I may have to just start my own cult. ----------------------------------- Howard: Always fun to do! ;-)) I classify myself unquestionably as Theravadin, but that doesn't prevent me from being able to learn Dhamma in other places, even, in fact, from other religions. ------------------------------------ Part of the charter would read: Mahayana good. Theravada good. Heart sutra good. Right speech good. Lying very very bad. ------------------------------------------ Howard: OK, in that case sign me up as a charter member! ;-) ----------------------------------------- -fk ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46791 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:45am Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Lisa, I enjoyed your reply and agree with your stance on how cultivating our self is the best way to make a positive change in the world. That is also my standard operating procedure, despite how my post might seem to indicate I'm this crazy eyed evangelical crusader out to convert the world to Buddhism. What I really wanted to convey is that we, including myself, are extremely fortunate to have such a rich selection of spiritual traditions to choose from, and it's easy to take it for granted and forget what kinds of incredible sacrifices had to be made for us to enjoy our spiritual prosperity. While I don't actively go out trying to promote Buddhism, by actively I mean in the evangelical proselytizing style, I do actively calibrate my volition and intentions so that when conditions arise where I can make a positive contribution to the world I'm ready to act decisively and hopefully effectively. In the mean time, I carry on my solitary practice not (unskillfully) concerned about the rise and fall of the Buddha's dispensation. -fk 46792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Howard, you wrote a very nice post. I appreciate it, Nina. op 19-06-2005 15:36 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > N: The Abhidhamma is within you and around you, but you don't realize this. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, I would say that reality is within and around me. :-) > ------------------------------- > You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. You will go to the Teacher > of Abhidhamma with deepest admiration, respect and confidence. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to > him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with > great reverence and gratefulness! > ------------------------------ 46793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: anatta discussions and my father. nilovg Hi Herman, op 19-06-2005 13:06 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > I am sorry to hear about the loss of your father. N: You are very kind. Inspite of all the problems we had for the last fifteen years our lives were so closely tied to his life, we miss him very much. We miss playing music for him and the dog, but now we still play the same pieces and think of him. I also read his letters written during his four years of being hostage (one year Buchenwald) during the German occupation and many things of his character and behaviour we understand better. I am reading his memoires, he was a pioneer in many fields. When we saw his body it was so different from a body that is alive and conditioned by kamma, citta and nutrition. A corpse is only rupas conditioned by temperature. It is helpful to understand momentary death, even now one citta falls away and then it conditions the next citta: birth of a new citta. I can understand that your discussions about emptiness were emotionally too much for your son. Your son is no longer the same as when he was a baby, and even today he is different from yesterday: different feelings, memories. ---------- H: Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) > will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there > certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. ---------- N: I think that Phil and Tep explained very well that anatta is not in contradiction with social life, with the Brahmaviharas. These can be practised with less selfishness. What Phil was alluding at was what Kh Sujin said to me: what were you before this life? Another being. And then you came into this world, you parted from what you had in your previous life. In this life you receive everything and then you have to leave again. In fact we do not lose anything. There is a coming and going. She also asked me: is seeing Lodewijk? Is hearing Lodewijk? We cannot say so. She wanted to demonstrate the momentariness of citta. Intellectually we can understand the Dhamma, but so long as insight has not been developed and there is no direct understanding, anatta is hard to accept with one's whole heart, also emotionally. Our defilements are in the way, especially ignorance and wrong view we accumulated for aeons. Nina. 46794 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/19/05 2:19:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote a very nice post. I appreciate it, Nina. ======================== Thank you for your kind words! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46795 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi again, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 1:38:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: The heart sutra and many Mahayana scriptures consistently attribute words coming out of the Buddha's mouth, and belittling the arahats as hinayana sravakas. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are such sutras. I find them despicable. ------------------------------------ They of course try to do it in a respectful way, but make no mistake it's belittling. If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures. ----------------------------------- Howard: My position is just the opposite, Frank! How long have you known me? ;-) ----------------------------------- From this standpoint, I can understand the need to legitimize Mahayana and pretend the Buddha uttered all the Mahayana scriptures, but nevertheless I find it really sick, just as I would feel finding out the truth about any white lie or blatant malicious lie. ----------------------------------- Howard: I presume you aren't accusing ME of that! =========================== On rereading this, I realize that you were not criticizing me, but Mahayanist excesses. I apologize for misinterpreting your intention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46796 From: "frank" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:28pm Subject: RE: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only dhamma_service Hi Howard, Sorry for the confusion. It was my fault for not being more clear in my statement "If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures." I of course meant not you Howard but "you" the historical persons with the intent of founding a Mahayana movement with needs to justify the movement. In the Mahayana body of sutras taken as a whole, there is both implicit and explicit belittling of the sravaka vehicle and arahants. As for my 2 examples on right speech, it was a preemptive defensive move to stop any possible attack on what appeared to be my seemingly unreasonable clinging to a notion of right speech with impeccable truth. Without those qualifying examples, I (I as in if I was another reader on the list) could easily rip that right speech argument to shreds. I'm not a fan of the white lie, but I am still prone to commit that felony myself from time to time because it's the easiest way to avoid social complications. And just to tie up any other potential loose ends, I did not mean to insinuate that Howard wears dresses, I did not mean to insinuate that women and their neurotic insecurities tend to cause more need for social white lying. I believe that men and women are equally neurotic, insecure, and disturbed, but that they tend to have gender specific patterns for exhibiting those pathologies. I apologize for any other misunderstandings and misleading statements that I made. -fk 46797 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: A Dhamma Quiz -- One Sutta Only upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/05 4:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Sorry for the confusion. It was my fault for not being more clear in my statement "If you're going to start a movement advancing the notion that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, there's going to be inherent belittling whether or not any of the arahants appear as characters in the Mahayana scriptures." ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's what threw me off. :-) --------------------------------------- I of course meant not you Howard but "you" the historical persons with the intent of founding a Mahayana movement with needs to justify the movement. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I realized that upon rereading! ------------------------------------ In the Mahayana body of sutras taken as a whole, there is both implicit and explicit belittling of the sravaka vehicle and arahants. As for my 2 examples on right speech, it was a preemptive defensive move to stop any possible attack on what appeared to be my seemingly unreasonable clinging to a notion of right speech with impeccable truth. Without those qualifying examples, I (I as in if I was another reader on the list) could easily rip that right speech argument to shreds. I'm not a fan of the white lie, but I am still prone to commit that felony myself from time to time because it's the easiest way to avoid social complications. -------------------------------- Howard: Understood. We all do that some time or other. -------------------------------- And just to tie up any other potential loose ends, I did not mean to insinuate that Howard wears dresses, I did not mean to insinuate that women and their neurotic insecurities tend to cause more need for social white lying. I believe that men and women are equally neurotic, insecure, and disturbed, but that they tend to have gender specific patterns for exhibiting those pathologies. I apologize for any other misunderstandings and misleading statements that I made. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I have a really cute pink item with ruffles that I think you'd just love on me! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ -fk ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46798 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Nina: "Returning to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 163: