46800 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:32pm Subject: heart sutra commentary RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Howard - It was interesting for me to compare your statements of 'Appreciation of the AbhidhammaTeacher' (see below). I was relieved to know that the Abhidhamma Teacher in Nina's mind was the same as the Great Sage in Howard's mind. > > Nina: You will go to its source, but slowly, slowly so. >> You will go to the Teacher of Abhidhamma with deepest >> admiration, respect and confidence. > > ------------------------------ > > Howard: > > I go to the teacher whose Dhamma is the basis for the Abhidhamma. I go to him, his awakened followers, and his Dhamma for refuge, and I do so with great reverence and gratefulness! > > ------------------------------ Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > you wrote a very nice post. > I appreciate it, > Nina. 46801 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Alone yet Free ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Secluded Completion in Ideal Solitude: The once asked a Bhikkhu just named 'Elder': How, Elder, is one living completely alone ? Regarding this, Elder: All that is past, this one has left all behind! All that is future, this one has all relinquished! All that is present individuality, this one has completely removed any desire and lust for... The intelligent, having conquered all, knowing all, From all states detached, disengaged, & unsoiled, Having given up all, released by removal of craving, Such One, I call: 'Living Alone'... Source: The Grouped Sayings by Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 282-4 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 46802 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 0:52am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 226 - Akusala Cetasikas intro(k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] There are four types of akusala cetasikas which have to arise with every akusala citta. These cetasikas are: ignorance, moha shamelessness, ahirika recklessness, anottappa restlessness, uddhacca One of these, ignorance, is root, the other three are not roots. These four types have to assist each akusala citta in performing its function. So long as these types have not been eradicated akusala citta will arise. Only the arahat has eradicated these four types. For him there are no more conditions for the arising of akusala. ***** [Akusala Cetasikas intro finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 46803 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Sarah, as you requested. > > This was the e-mail referencing post #46584 (not included here because > of its length). I think I expected a reply from Nina, too, but I know > that she is away for a week or so, so that is why there wasn't a > response. Just don't want it to die there. .... S: I understand. It was a good post. I just re-checked and remember now that when I wrote back #46633 to you, I had this other post of yours on 'Discipline' in front of me too and made some references to it. So I thought I had indirectly replied to it as well. I probably should have quoted from it directly. .... > are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' > or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some > correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, > what approach to take, etc? .... S: The main differences as I see it are, arising just from this post of yours: a) you are 'trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 lives', trying to avoid any behaviour which you think is inconsistent with how you imagine a sotapanna would live ... On the other hand, I'm not interested in any kind of 'imitation', but rather in knowing the present tendencies and dhammas arising. ***** b) as you admit, you 'force practise' .... S: On the other hand, I see this as Self-pursuit ***** c) You have the idea that you can choose to 'walk away' and 'pursue "deeds of merit" ' ... S: Again, I see this as a lack of confidence in understanding conditioned dhammas and the strong idea of 'control' as leading to many of your difficulties. I think you mentioned that the serious problems only started after your interest in Buddhism began. ***** d) I think you see 'discipline' and 'self-discipline' very much in terms of particular activities you pursue (or don't pursue) ... S: Whereas I see them very much in terms of very momentary cittas and cetasikas, regardless of the activity at the time. Kusala and refraining from akusala can arise anywhere, anytime -- even whilst having fun with your friends. .... e) in brief, there are lots of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in the way you see the practise and discipline. ... S: Again, I think that when we appreciate the complexity of conditions a little more (even in theory), we can see why the present dhammas have to be as they are and not another way. The Abhidhamma really helps a lot in daily life. Pls let me know whether we are getting any 'corelation in our intentions' here and any comments you have on our approaches to re-starting our Abhidhamma studies. Any further questions or clarifications needed? **** > > if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life > and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that > sake the discipline at all. > let me know. > pz, ... S: Please tell us about it. It sounds interesting and maybe good indications that your life is slowly returning to 'normal'??? As your understanding in the Dhamma grows, you'll find the practise and discipline fit into your daily life more and more easily, regardless of the activities you are following. How is the computer programming going? Perhaps you have a job? Let me know how we're doing here. Metta, Sarah ======= 46804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. nilovg Hi Tep, op 19-06-2005 17:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: N: Also for those who do not develop jhana there are the three trainings > when there is right awareness and right understanding of whatever > dhamma appears. > > T: Could you please support your statement by means of at least one > sutta? Thank you much. By the way, is right awareness = right > mindfulness, and right understanding = right view (samma-ditthi)? --------- N: As to your last sentence: yes. You also use samma-ñaa.na sometimes, and I understand you mean a highly developed insight? Or lokuttara? I think we can use samma-di.t.thi for all levels, also for lokuttara magga. See M.N. 117, the ariyan view that is cankerless. You ask me for a sutta. No, such a sutta cannot be found. The Buddha spoke to the monks about the three training leading to the highest fruit: the fruition of arahatship. But I understand the three trainings to be together, just as the Path factors being developed together. What is right concentration of the eightfold Path without right view or paññaa of the eightfold Path? It could not be a path factor. See M.N. 117: right view comes first. I see concentration as a necessary factor. It can also be khanika samaadhi, momentary concentration. It focusses just for a moment on the naama or ruupa that appears, and at the same time sati is non-forgetful of it, right thinking (alas often translated as right purpose, or intention) hits that very object so that pannñaa can do its work in penetrating its true nature. When I use the word focussing, I do not mean trying to concentrate on a nama or rupa with an idea of self. It all happens within a moment, because the right conditions are present. It is very fast, nobody can plan it. --------- T:> MN 117 sates very clearly that samma-samadhi (defined as the four > jhanas in DN 22) is supported by samma-sati (defined as satipatthana > in DN 22) and the remaining 6 path factors. ---------- N: I think you know that when the Path is still mundane it is five or six factored. Only when it is lokuttara all eight factors arise together (the three of right livelihood included). Right concentration: the level of jhana or not necessarily for everyone of the level of jhana. -------- T: Yet the 8 path factors do not > bring about arahatta-phala; it takes the 8 Path factors plus samma- > nana and samma-vimutti to reach the arahatta-phala <"In one of right > concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right > release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight > factors, and the arahant with ten."> . ------ N: I think that there are not more than eight factors, but here different aspects are shown. Freedom, vimutti is in itself not a path factor. But here, in the case of the arahat they are called path factors. I just compared B.B.'s translation of M.N. 117, the Great Forty. The path factors are developed on an on until arahatship is attained. The sammaa-samaadhi accompanying the fruition consciousness is the highest calm, because all defilements are eradicated. I often find sutta texts about sila, samaadhi and pañña difficult. But I read several times in the Co that sammaa-samaadhi can refer to sammaa-samaadhi accompanying the fruition consciousness. We do not always know to what degree of samaadhi the text refers to. We have to be careful and need the help of the Co. otherwise we may interprete wrongly. In different contexts samaadhi is of different degrees and has different qualities. As to the Great Forty, in the beginning, right concentration is here supramundane right concentration (Spk, the Co). Thus, nibbaana is the object that is experienced. B.B.'s note: the two additional two factors of the arahat: right knowledge: his reviewing knowledge that he has destroyed all defilements and right deliverance: his experience of liberation from all defilements. Nina. 46805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion nilovg Hi Larry, op 20-06-2005 02:42 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: The basic debate is that Sarah > says a paramattha dhamma can be the object of desire or aversion and I > say only a concept can be the object of desire or aversion. My reasoning > is that if the individual essence of an object is concealed by ignorance > then what is apparently the object must be a concept. As you say, > "ignorance conditions akusala citta". I would say the reality that is > ignorance is conceptualization. ------ N: The sad truth is that as soon as a pleasant sight or sound appears, there can be lobha, even though the meaning of what it is (the concept) is not known. And then there is also ignorance arising together. Afterwards when there is thinking of concepts on account of that ruupa, more lobha and thus also more ignorance arises. Thus, I would not connect ignorance with just concepts. Ignorance does not know that there is a pleasant ruupa, and it does not know that there is lobha, it is completely dark. ---------- L: In the very immediate situation of tasting food and liking it, I would > say what conditions the arising of liking is a compact whole of various > dhammas, both concepts and ultimately realities. And I am saying a > compact whole is a concept. ------- N: right -------- L: I realize this position contradicts some basic abhidhamma principles but > it fits very nicely with other abhidhamma principles such as 'only > wisdom (pañña) penetrates the individual essences (sabhava) of > realities', and 'when there is wisdom there is no desire or aversion'. > [These aren't quotes, just principles.] ------- N: Wisdom also realizes the nature of desire and aversion, it can follow those akusala dhammas. Whereas ignorance does not. ------- L: Nina: "I answer according to the book, but the direct realization is far > away. It is really difficult to penetrate the true characteristic of > ignorance, we have so much ignorance about our ignorance." > > L: We won't find this penetration in the book. We have to look at the > dinner table.:-)) -------- N: Right you are. Awareness and understanding should be developed also at the dinner table, the only way. ------- > L: :-) Yes, I will hang on to the water element. > ps: I expect Sarah is splashing around in the water element too. ------- N: We have a heatwave now, but in order not to be lazy I shall occupy myself with sloth and torpor, which are a mental indisposition. They paralyze and take away wholesome energy. Nina. 46806 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you for your detailed replies and for sharing your difficulties with us. I'm sure it takes some courage to do this. --- balancing_life wrote: > The one i pity most is her father, who loves her the most, as she is > intectually able to communicate with him as an adult, and not a child > and he only can be himself, with her around...no pretences. > > He loved her so much, that he gave her everything she asked for and > her hobby is reading and listening to S Club 7 (i get depressed, when > i hear their songs on the radio) ... S: I hope that for the sake of the family, you can help the father to find some acceptance -- he did his very best for his daughter, but no parent can prevent another's kamma bringing its results or control the mind-states of a child. We shouldn't blame the other children either -- again, this wasn't their intention and the result depended on your niece's kamma too. I think that understanding a little more about kamma and vipaka helps a lot -- it helps us to have more peace and acceptance of events and this will help us to have greater compassion and skills in helping those around us who are suffering. When we have regrets and blame ourselves and others, there is no understanding of kamma or other conditions at work. .... > > In fact, her father asked me to go to the furniture shop to buy a > bookshelf, just to keep all her reading books...like Harry Potter, > Lord of the Rings, etc, and many others until the whole bookshelf is > full...now it's gathering dust, cos her sister taste/hobbies, are > entirely different from hers. ... S: I hope that in due course, he can 'let go', but it must be so hard. When we were travelling in India, a Thai friend showed me she was carrying around the ashes of her daughter. Apparently she takes them everywhere. Her sister also said to me 'she can't let go' and so it brings her so much grief. ... > Then unfortunately, i read in a Mahayana's book, that those who died > in accidents or those who committed suicide cannot be reincarnated > until someone else takes their place...but then again, who knows, as > Lord Buddha has told us, that not to believe anything that anybody > said. ... S: This is all quite wrong according to the Buddha's teachings. There is just a long, long, indefinitely long, chain of cittas (moments of consciousness) without any interval or break. It makes no difference at all what the cause of death is. It depends on previous kamma, maybe from many lifetimes ago, what rebirth takes place. There is no person in reality that dies or takes any place. Also, even though there must be great despair at the time of taking one's own life, cittas are so very rapid, that we have no idea at all about the last cittas of life. They may be very calm and wise. There are examples in the suttas of people who took their lives in despair, but became enlightened just before dying. So we can have no idea at all from the actions or appearance of the body. It's just like when someone dies peacefully in old age -- we don't know about the plane of the next life. Perhaps she'll be able to rejoice in your good deeds too. ... > Yes, Lord Buddha's teachings have taught me a lot...that suffering is > envitable...that nothing is permanent and everything is only > temporary...so we have to live in the NOW, as Ekhart Tolle has found > out for himself. (or in other words, to be mindful or live in that > moment only, for tomorrow may never come.) > > Well, her death has taught me never to take anything or anyone for > granted...i thought i would one day wind up in the old folks home and > she and her sister with their families would bring me "goodies", when > they come to visit me, but unfortunately, that dream is gone...as > Chinese proverb says, "The coffin only contains dead people, not old > people". ... S: :-). And the development of understanding of the Buddha's teachings is the greatest respect you can pay to her memory. Perhaps in due course you can share it with your family. And yes, any expectations about how others will treat us in our old age are quite useless. Our present study, interest and understanding of the teachings is the best retirement package:). ... > You are rite, Sarah, i have learnt to let go, but as i have said > before yesterday, i am into a real turmoil now, which is beyond my > control and i can only solace myself, that i have used up all my good > Karma and is now reaping the bad. ... S: May I suggest that usually when we find ourselves in turmoil, the main problem is not the kamma results so much as the strong aversion and thinking about/dwelling on what's being experienced or what was experienced before. And this, in turn may lead to more bad kamma, so we need to see what is the real root of our problems. .... > > Well, i can't control my past lives, but i can at least hopefully do > some good in this life, so that is one of the reason, why i am > sharing this e-correspondence with all of you...as i do not have much > money to donate and do not have the time to do charity... ... S: This is the right attitude. Please share in our discussions here too. You will help others in this way. ..... > I apologise for rambling here, as Lord Buddha taught us that there > is "no self", "no body", "no I/myself" and "no ego", but i was just > so sad that my niece had passed away, and i always thought, being so > intelligent as she was, it was such a waste, and i always thought, > she would succeed in my brother's business...i would have gladly > traded my life for us, if only i could do so. > > Gotto go... > :} > AliceStillUnfortunatelyInRegretsLand ... S: No need to apologise at all. Please let me know how you get on. It's very natural to be sad, very sad, but we can begin to see that it is the present sadness and ignorance that is the problem now, rather than what has happened. You need to be strong to help her family. You may like to look at posts in 'Useful Posts' in the files section sometime. Look at posts saved under 'Discouraged', also 'Dosa (aversion)', 'Intermediate States (Bardo)' and maybe'Isolated'. Please keep sharing. Metta, Sarah ======= 46807 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories christine_fo... Hello Lisa, all, Interesting to read your word definitions :-) And thanks for your chatty and informative posts and for the opportunity to reflect on the quote "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way difficult to attain." I think it is from the Sutra in Forty Two Sections? (We are becoming quite 'ecumenical' on dsg lately - what with the Heart Sutra and now this quote :-)) My understanding (from a Theravada perspective) is that the Buddha valued and encouraged deep learning (Pariyatti). "The Case for Study" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.buddhistinformation.com/case_for_study.htm and another word to add to the collection :-) pariyatti: 'learning the doctrine', the 'wording of the doctrine'. In the 'progress of the disciple' (q.v.), 3 stages may be distinguished: theory, practice, realization, i.e. (1) learning the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal. (App.). Thankfully, we aren't required to memorise the lot nowadays - I don't think we fully appreciate what a benefit the print media and the internet are. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Chris so nice to met you and you dont post enough your writing is > very clear and cuts very nicely clean and quick. > >>>courtesy snip<<< > Before I posted to Herman on memory I did a bit of research and dug > into old notes: > > The Buddha said, "Deep learning and a love of the Way make the Way > difficult to attain. " Deep learning here refers to being well- read. >>>courtesy snip<<< > With Metta, > Lisa 46808 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn Hallo Lisa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hallo Joop, > > I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of > duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked > off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy > aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the > Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, Sun > Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe I > can include the Eightfold Path as well?] > > I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some > Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to behave > if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of information Joop: Your behavior is not a problem, but I still have problems understanding you. I think we have different temperaments: your buddhism is a kind of extatic buddhism, a dionisian buddhism; and I prefer a apollian one (cf Friedrich Nietzsche) ...(snip) > What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, > but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see > in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial > doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. > Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be taught > cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings > according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra II.112- > 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up > to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from the > Lankavatara Sutra. > > > With metta, > Lisa I don't have problems with a doctrine for babes (do you mean babies or sexy girls with that word?) and I don'tlike the word conqueror, it's too much a militaristic metaphore. About your quote of the Lamkavatara Sutra, I think you use it to me because I said somethink about 'skilful means in a post some days ago. I think 'skilfu; means'is a principle that should be used very careful, otherwise it can be used to defend nonsense. I you dont think a discussion between us is fruitful: don't answer me. With metta Joop 46809 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol sarahprocter... Hi Alice, I just lost a longer reply to this post of yours. In brief, I thought you made excellent comments and gave some good quotes. --- balancing_life wrote: > There was another case in our country in KL, whereby, a man who was > drunk was angry (road rage) at a motorist in front of him (maybe just > for driving too slow) and shot her to death, without any notice. > Actually, guns are not legalized in Malaysia, but some VIPs or > someone who are in the high position, can get them. > And the irony of that incident was that women who got shot, usually > did not travel that road as she will use another road to shuttle her > friend home, but unfortunately, on that day, her friend fell sick, > and so she headed straight for home. > Well, i guess that is fated, and there is no escape from certain > death. .... S: Time for kamma to bring its result. Like when the ingredients of a soup are cooked together in a particular way, the result cannot be different. .... > > Sarah, if you do not mind, could you tell us, how liquor took away > your father's life? > > :} > AliceInCuriosityWillKillTheCatLand ... S: Ummm - A very clever man, a classics scholar from Cambridge and a lawyer from a well-to-do family, also a doting family man who adored his children....but, a weakness for drink. When we were young, it was just social drinking and he was encouraged as the 'life and soul' of any party.....over the years it got worse and worse, leading to some really horrible incidents, manic depression, serious epileptic fits and much worse. Impossible to talk to him or get any help even though we were so very close. In the end, he lost just about everything. It's still difficult for me to talk about, even though he died 20 yrs ago. He once wrote to me that he was so glad I'd found what I was looking for (in the Dhamma) because he'd been looking his whole life but not found it. .... > > Thus the social drinker who drinks only on social > occasions and who is not addicted nor particularly drawn to liquors > and spirits does not break the precept so long as he does not get > himself tipsy or intoxicated. ... S: I'm not sure this point is right. ... > Special Importance of the 5th Precept > > Usually, when this precept is broken, all the other precepts are also > bound to be broken. This is because when a person breaks the 5th > precept, i.e. he becomes intoxicated (drunk or high as the case may > be), and there is no telling what he can do. <...> "To refrain from distilled and fermented intoxicants WHICH ARE THE > OCCASION FOR CARELESSNESS" .... S: Yes, the danger is in the habit-forming patterns. The danger is in what it leads to. One drink leads to two and so on. Unless there's awareness, there's no knowing of the effects. Also see 'drinking' in U.P. Fortunately, seeing the effect on my father brought me to my senses in this regard for which I'm grateful. metta, Sarah ====== 46810 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al, Also, is this extract I posted the other day from 'Cetasikas' relevant to our discussion on 'Discipline' and intentions for study, would you say? ..... >Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a different person at different moments. In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala citta.< ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 46811 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Memories jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Chris and everyone, > > Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text > available on line anywhere? > > The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the > Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Hallo Herman, Yes, and complete! http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf The appendix about 'memory'can be found on page 111 of this ebook which I like very much and not only because Nyanaponika is critical on ontology Another, not explicit buddhistic, remark on 'memory' What I understand from scienmtific (neuroscience, psychology) research on memory, the metaphore that the brain is a kind of hard disk, is not good at all. Memory hardly exists in the brain on such a permanent way, every moment again it is refreshed and restructured, influenced by new experiences. When I think I remember something from my youth, I in fact remember a memory of some years ago from a memory ten years ago etc. from what happened in my youth. Metta Joop 46812 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflection, mirror mirror on the wall, also duplication, dna replication sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a > closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention > Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. ... S: :) Thx for the definition of the term....btw, we encourage all Attention and non-Attention Getters here to put a pic in the album...!! .... > > Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. > > First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the > mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? .... S: No. The brain is a concept we have... I wouldn't say nama is mind either. Leaving aside nibbana, Nama is any reality which can experience an object. So 'seeing consciousness' is nama, but the visible object which is seen is rupa. Tasting is nama, but the taste itself is rupa. Feeling is nama, but heat and cold are rupas. It is a big juicy piece of meat, so let's stick with it. Ask away. Excel Qs as I see them. Also see ch 1 in Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' on Zolag or other websites .... >The brain is our western way to > describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is > located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the > brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., > seems to have a mind of their own. .... S: I think it's easier when we reflect on the Abhidhamma if we put aside our scientific knowledge which has a different purpose and set of definitions. In the (Abhi)dhamma, we're looking at what can be directly known. Brain can only be conceptualised, right? .... > > I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in > Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not > very confident of using them. So, be kind to this neophyte and don't > tear me up too much as I play with this new toy I've discovered. ... S: Don't worry....we're all v.sympathetic to newcomers here:)Don't worry about getting the Pali terms mixed up at all and mix and match as you like -- Lisa's an expert on this. Then there's Naomi, Phil's wife, who makes up her own Pali:-)). Seriously, the Nyantiloka dict which I think Lisa gave a link for his v.helpful. Also there's a simple Pali glossary in the 'files'.It's worth printing this one out to have handy. Best of all, ask, ask. 1/3 sounds pretty high to me... .... > Sarah you and K.Sujin, I've noticed in my recent Googles,are well > represented so I'd rather not engage you both at the same time, but > there's a first time for everything huh? ... S: Don't worry, K.Sujin doesn't post:) Not sure what googles have been up to...:/ .... > > Oh, no, I've only got 5 min. on the computer left to do research etc. > at least the points I was gonna attack, engage, are listed below in > your p.s. and I can recover Monday. ... S: And I have less than 5 mins before dashing to Tai Chi.. ... > > Glad to be here. Cetasikas and Cittas I'm still not too clear yet I > know it's in the Abhidhamma so I'll review. Oh, Vipissana meditation, > please explain! > ... S: I prefer vipassana bhavana or mental development...so even now, while dashing, there are cittas and cetasikas (i.e namas) experiencing objects. Even now, there can be awareness of a citta, a cetasika or a rupa. That means that there can be awareness now of seeing consciousness, visible object, feeling, atttachment, aversion, agitation or any other dhamma which is apparent. By developing awareness and understanding more about what it is, what the objects are, vipassana can develop....slowly. Also see 'vipassana' in U.P. Pls raise any of the other points again.... I minute...sorry, this is a little rushed...but I wanted to get back to you. Hope you settle in well, Colette....I'm sure you will. Great to have your interest in Abhidhamma and the various discussions with your special touch...(join the whacky women's club here....:)). Also, disagree anytime. Metta, Sarah ====== 46813 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:12am Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare cases, contented disinterest.) Metta, Dan Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." 46814 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways foamflowers On 6/20/05 4:38 AM, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Lisa, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" > wrote: >> Hallo Joop, >> >> I posted the references where I had read passages that spoke of >> duality and I visualized the "Getting your 'tail cut off or cooked >> off lol'. The remark is also in reference to those clingy >> aggregates they can't make it through the door of non-duality, the >> Golden Door, Solar Gates or Pillars, Clashing or Gnashing Rocks, > > Sun >> Door, Axis Mundi, Tree of The World, World Door and so on. [Maybe > > I >> can include the Eightfold Path as well?] >> >> I don't know if I should post all this stuff in DSG. But some >> Mahayana was posted lol so I will post this too. Tell me to > > behave >> if I stepped out of bounds and I won't post this kind of >> information > > Joop: Your behavior is not a problem, but I still have problems > understanding you. I think we have different temperaments: your > buddhism is a kind of extatic buddhism, a dionisian buddhism; and I > prefer a apollian one (cf Friedrich Nietzsche) > > ...(snip) Ahhh, existentialist, what the senses can pick up is reality as it is kind of guy...that's cool with me. Nietzsche rejected the idea of universal constants, and spoke of truth that is subjective. He believed the life of Now and creativity and living a healthy life right now rather than living life for the promise of Heavenly things of the afterlife. There is nothing beyond sensual experience from what I understand his writings to say. He seem to think that being human is not a big deal and when we pass as a species the universe will not care. I'm more of a Sophia Perennis girl the philosophers from all over the world that contribute to Sophia Perennis try to provide a thoughtful response to the desacralization of our times and to the resulting loss of the sense for traditional guiding principles. Lol....the bench is big enough we both can sit here together I think, I don't mind if you sit by me I like Nietzche. I like all sorts of traditions and views that have the same kind of outlook as some old sages say the path to freedom is to know thyself. All end up with the same view, no view at all. >> What I teach is not a doctrine for babes, >> but for the Sons of the Conqueror. And just as whatever I say see >> in a diversified manner has no real being, so is the pictorial >> doctrine communicated in a manner irrelevant. >> Whatever is not adapted to such and such persons as are to be >> taught >> cannot be called a 'teaching.' . . . . Buddha's teach beings >> according to their mental capacity. (La.nkaavaataara Suutra >>II.112- >> 114.) There are actually many more citations listed in the book up >> to half a page sometimes but the last one I liked the best from >> the >> Lankavatara Sutra. >> >> >> With metta, >> Lisa > > I don't have problems with a doctrine for babes (do you mean babies > or sexy girls with that word?) and I don'tlike the word conqueror, > it's too much a militaristic metaphore. > About your quote of the Lamkavatara Sutra, I think you use it to me > because I said somethink about 'skilful means in a post some days > ago. I think 'skilfu; means'is a principle that should be used very > careful, otherwise it can be used to defend nonsense. > > I you dont think a discussion between us is fruitful: don't answer > me. I always find discussion here fruitful, but whether the fruit is going to be sweet to eat that will have to wait until picking season. > With metta > > Joop I no problem with this discussion you are very blunt and easy to see, I find the verse lovely because I felt like a warrior in my past but not in the sense Of killing sentient beings. My battle weapons are the virtues and The battle is to unbind from mara. I used the virtues to make a clearing so I could sit or live in peace so I could see peace as I go about daily life. Not much worry or struggle I found out if I use the virtues as a guideline for living. But it was a struggle to put them in place because I lived in a place where I had to defend myself all the time. For me it took courage to not fight when faced with violence because I had a strong habit of defending myself. Knowing there is no self in the clinging aggregates that self defence habit is very deep and will take many life times to fade away. At first it was very scary to not fight and face my anger and fear without flinching just like a warrior. To see it so clearly in others now because I don't struggle so much still scares me and I want to run away and hide. I don't but my heart still pounds and I feel like crying once or twice a month. I think that's hormones though...hahaha You may not get that joke it's a girl thing...and also you're not from my culture...sigh, my mate is from the Nederlands you know. His Momma and Pappa both survived the War, his Papa just passed I was lucky enough to met him. His Mama is still alive and she is a sweet heart. Ik hou van Miep! I like the Nederlands and the people felt just like home to me. It took a lot of courage for me to sit in meditation when I was being hit With boredom, panic attacks, pain in knees and back, and all those Visions and bliss. In the past when these states came up I would run To the tv, food, hobbies, books, chores, friends, fight or what ever I could do to get away from them or think I was some kind of God or Goddess (hahhaha), just kidding. There is no bliss and no real gut twisting sadness in this life anymore, I just think weird thoughts and write in a strange way. And I find Dhamma in The strangest places. Joop what norm do you judge me and yourself by? With Metta, Lisa 46815 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/20/05 4:56:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: When I use the word focussing, I do not mean trying to concentrate on a nama or rupa with an idea of self. It all happens within a moment, because the right conditions are present. It is very fast, nobody can plan it. ====================== Do you mean to imply by this that there are no conventional actions that can be taken to support the tendency for momentary concentration to arise? Or, if there are, what do you understand these to be? Do they include conventional "paying attention"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46816 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:27am Subject: Lobha: case in point ksheri3 Group, I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: "9. Three Roots (Múla)- Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites are the roots of good. Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. Craving is also used as an equivalent of lobha. In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a rule, clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, ordinarily there is aversion. " The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and the Nazis. The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. In the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's hate for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and honored both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, Chasidat. The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave to the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew will turn into the Nazi? toodles, colette 46817 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:52am Subject: Roots ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Wow, we are very close! You have a strong and sensitive aura about you! I was going to comment on this: in my meditations last nite I recalled someone's mentioning bhavanga consciousness and that resonted with me in the Abhidhamma since it gives somewhat of an explanation for a sensation I had continually after I rolled daddy's Caddy end over end three times in 1978 and was almost dead, luckily the EMTs brought me back. Below is the shortened definition: "27. Thought-Process The subject, the consciousness, receives objects from within and without. When a person is in a state of profound sleep his mind is said to be vacant, or, in other words, in a state of bhavanga. We always experience such a passive state when our minds do not respond to external objects. This flow of bhavanga is interrupted when objects enter the mind. Then the bhavanga consciousness vibrates for one thought-moment and passes away. Thereupon the sense-door consciousness (pañca-dvárávajjana) arises and ceases. At this stage the natural flow is checked and is turned towards the object. Immediately after there arises and ceases the eye consciousness* (cakkhu viññána), but yet knows no more about it. This sense operation is followed by a moment of reception of the object so seen (sampaticchana). Next comes the investigating faculty (santírana) or a momentary examination of the object so received. After this comes that stage of representative cognition termed the determining consciousness (votthapana). Discrimination is exercised at this stage. Freewill plays its part here. Immediately after there arises the psychologically most important stage - Impulsion or javana. It is at this stage that an action is judged whether moral or immoral. Kamma is performed at this stage; if viewed rightly (yoniso manasikára), the javana becomes moral; if viewed wrongly (ayoniso manasikára), it becomes immoral. In the case of an Arahat this javana is neither moral nor immoral, but merely functional (kiriya). This javana stage usually lasts for seven thought moments, or, at times of death, five. The whole process which happens in an infinitesimal part of time ends with the registering consciousness (tadálambana), lasting for two thought-moments - thus completing one thought-process at the expiration of seventeen thought-moments. " *[i.e., if the object is a form (rúpa). This consciousness depends on the five objects of sense.] The three kinds of bhavanga consciousness are vipáka. They are either one of the two santírana cittas, accompanied by indifference, mentioned above, or one of the eight sobhana vipáka cittas, described in section 6. Pañca-dvárávajjana is a kriyá citta. Pañca viññána is one of the ten moral and immoral vipáka cittas. Sampaticchana and santírana are also vipáka cittas. The mano-dvárávajjana (mind-door consciousness), a kriyá citta, functions as the votthapana consciousness. One can use one's freewill at this stage. The seven javana thought-moments constitute kamma. The tadálambana is a vipáka citta which is one of the three santírana cittas or one of the eight sobhana vipáka cittas. I'll be happy to comment on this later, now I don't have much time at all for all that I want to respond to. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Colette, > > --- colette wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > You're the one that Toodled me huh? ;) Toodles is like a suffix or a > > closing not an opening, although it may be considered as an Attention > > Getter, such as In Through The Out Door. > ... > S: :) Thx for the definition of the term....btw, we encourage all > Attention and non-Attention Getters here to put a pic in the album...!! colette: we can talk about it later. > .... > > > > Lets start on this nice big juicey piece of meat then shall we. > > > > First nama is mind that's it. Nama is a word used to identify the > > mind of the mind. Is the brain nama? > .... > S: No. The brain is a concept we have... > I wouldn't say nama is mind either. Leaving aside nibbana, Nama is any > reality which can experience an object. colette: okay, I concede that my quick definition didn't make the grade. I may've been thinking of nana. I got it somewhere here but not time to locate. So 'seeing consciousness' is nama, > but the visible object which is seen is rupa. Tasting is nama, but the > taste itself is rupa. Feeling is nama, but heat and cold are rupas. colette: DOOR CONSCIOUSNESSES, correct? > > It is a big juicy piece of meat, so let's stick with it. Ask away. Excel > Qs as I see them. > > Also see ch 1 in Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' on Zolag or other > websites > .... > >The brain is our western way to > > describe the physical organ where we think, believe the mind is > > located. We cannot scientifically say that the mind is located in the > > brain since I know that sense organs, eye, ear, nose, skin, etc., > > seems to have a mind of their own. > .... > S: I think it's easier when we reflect on the Abhidhamma if we put aside > our scientific knowledge which has a different purpose and set of > definitions. In the (Abhi)dhamma, we're looking at what can be directly > known. Brain can only be conceptualised, right? colette: mind can only be conceptualised, brain is the material, manifested aspect, the sense organ for lack of a better word. > .... > > > > I'm new at this, buddhism, and hi-perf. buddhism as well in > > Abhidhamma. I don't have nearly 1/3 of the pali words down and am not > > very confident of using them. So, be kind to this neophyte and don't > > tear me up too much as I play with this new toy I've discovered. > ... > S: Don't worry....we're all v.sympathetic to newcomers here:)Don't worry > about getting the Pali terms mixed up at all and mix and match as you like > -- Lisa's an expert on this. Then there's Naomi, Phil's wife, who makes up > her own Pali:-)). colette: cool in another esoteric site they used to say that "oh, it's a colette-ism" so I can understand! ;)) > > Seriously, the Nyantiloka dict which I think Lisa gave a link for his > v.helpful. Also there's a simple Pali glossary in the 'files'.It's worth > printing this one out to have handy. Best of all, ask, ask. 1/3 sounds > pretty high to me... colette: high, did you say high! is that a greeting or a mental state, condition? ;)) > .... > > Sarah you and K.Sujin, I've noticed in my recent Googles,are well > > represented so I'd rather not engage you both at the same time, but > > there's a first time for everything huh? > ... > S: Don't worry, K.Sujin doesn't post:) Not sure what googles have been up > to...:/ > .... > > > > Oh, no, I've only got 5 min. on the computer left to do research etc. > > at least the points I was gonna attack, engage, are listed below in > > your p.s. and I can recover Monday. > ... > S: And I have less than 5 mins before dashing to Tai Chi.. colette: back in the 90s I lived up near what they call New China Town and was very deep into hatha yoga at the health club. Now I live near The Temple of Kriya Yoga on 2414 N. Kedzie Blvd. here in Chicago, Ever hear of Sri. Goswami Kriyananda? the below section I've only had time to read I'll answer agree/disagree later today! Thanx for the welcome! ;) toodles, colette > ... > > > > Glad to be here. Cetasikas and Cittas I'm still not too clear yet I > > know it's in the Abhidhamma so I'll review. Oh, Vipissana meditation, > > please explain! > > > ... > S: I prefer vipassana bhavana or mental development...so even now, while > dashing, there are cittas and cetasikas (i.e namas) experiencing objects. > > Even now, there can be awareness of a citta, a cetasika or a rupa. That > means that there can be awareness now of seeing consciousness, visible > object, feeling, atttachment, aversion, agitation or any other dhamma > which is apparent. By developing awareness and understanding more about > what it is, what the objects are, vipassana can develop....slowly. > > Also see 'vipassana' in U.P. > > Pls raise any of the other points again.... > > I minute...sorry, this is a little rushed...but I wanted to get back to > you. > > Hope you settle in well, Colette....I'm sure you will. Great to have your > interest in Abhidhamma and the various discussions with your special > touch...(join the whacky women's club here....:)). Also, disagree anytime. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46818 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lobha: case in point upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 6/20/05 1:28:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Group, I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: "9. Three Roots (Múla)- Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites are the roots of good. Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. Craving is also used as an equivalent of lobha. In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a rule, clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, ordinarily there is aversion. " The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and the Nazis. The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. In the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's hate for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and honored both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, Chasidat. The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave to the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew will turn into the Nazi? toodles, colette ========================= An "interesting" post, I must say! Not one which I am content to read in silence, however. Howard, One of the Hateful Hebrews /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46819 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: Lobha: case in point onco111 Dear Colette, You have a unique perspective indeed! At dsg we typically discuss Dhamma and understanding realities rather than speculate about how awful this group of people or that group of people are. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Group, > > I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and > thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the > definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: > > "9. Three Roots (Múla)- > > Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites > are the roots of good. > > Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered > by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. Craving > is also used as an equivalent of lobha. > > In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a rule, > clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, > ordinarily there is aversion. " > > The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" > priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and > the Nazis. > > The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. In > the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's hate > for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate > for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. > Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and honored > both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, > by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE > the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and > therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, > Chasidat. > > The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and > they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate > to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave to > the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew > will turn into the Nazi? > > toodles, > colette 46820 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Colette - > > ========================= > An "interesting" post, I must say! Not one which I am content to read in > silence, however. > > Howard, One of the Hateful Hebrews > Hi Howard, Commendable, thank you for not taking such an agressive attack based on my views: I call em like I see em. I have no attachments! I say this as a sign of Rights of Passage, not as a badge, or Yellow Star of David, on my chest. It is an empowerment nothing more it serves to swaddle your consciousness not to empower my ego. I walked from Phoenix Arizona to Flagstaff to Gallup New Mexico at the time of my greatest exploits using Sex-Magik as a means. Heed RAMAK OR THE HOLY ARI, do not banty triffles here as I can use Judge Epstein as a means to an end here in Chicago. I play in Beriah, and in Yetzirah do not think you will take this from me. I juggle many a balls and by no means feel remorse for issueing them to the right recipient. "iii) There are four Bonds (4): (same as 1-4). (iv) There are four (bodily) Ties (5): 1. Covetousness, 2. Ill will, 3. Adherence to rites and ceremonies, 4. Dogmatic belief that 'this alone is truth'. " "3. Ogha is derived from ava + Ö han, to harm or kill. Beings caught in the current of a great flood are overturned and swept away directly to the sea and are hurled into the bottom. In the same way these oghas drown beings completely and sweep them away into states of misery." I have been thrown from the upper middle-class to the lowest of the proletariate by means of hebrew conniving and do not feel I should suffer any longer by this means of hate from them towards myself. I've got more names and dates and accusations that you'd never believe however you may be of the hallucination that all the hebrews do is of good. I refer you to Chicago in the 1920 with the competition between Al Capone and a hebrew organized crime boss. Are the hebrews without falt? I shall use what is available! the good Judge Epstein made himself available to me. So, shall we discuss the Sufi's or shall we discuss the Golden Dawn or Illuminati or possibly even get into the Asians with the Yakusa or Triads or Kmer Rouge, or why I recall recently answering a friend from Burma who had some nice thoughts maybe he could discuss the former Golden Triangle better so that we can understand the Bush Admin. and Afghanistan/Pakistan. Shall we be pious here? toodles, colette 46822 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: Lobha: case in point ksheri3 Hi Dan, Did you come with a complete manual on how to operate you from birth? I mean this thing we call life here in the USA is rather robotic don't you think. Since it is robotic then it should be like a toy issued from a manufacturing plant that issues warranties on their products such as a university would issue on their students however because of you delusions then you see this diploma as something other than a warranty. "43. Dhatu is that which bears its own characteristic. 44 Dhamma -dhatu is synonymous with dhammayatana but differs from dhammarammana as it does not include citta (consciousness), pannatti (concepts), and pasada-rupas (sensitive material phenomena)." and you are of the opinion that the life I exist in and feel through my sense doors is not reality -- in fact that the reality I exist in is a speculation and that you have the reality that we all live in? Do you believe that international trade whether it be in baubbles & trinkets or in human lives and weapons of war, does not have an effect of the life I live or that you live? Lets say that I'm in the Kieber Pass and I need 10,000 rounds of ammunition, which means I have to take from someplace and place in another place. Do you mean this is not going to effect you? Why then would there be such a problem with the Burmese military hunta now and trade with the UK. What happens if I go to S. America and need something from the Shining Path can I use the religious principles of the Jhivarro tribes (head shrinkers mind you) as a negotiating tool? Is what you are trying to say is that reality here only applies to reality which we live as long as it does not disrupt your financial position but if it has any potential to place your debts in jeopardy then this discussion, this dhamma, is useless? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Colette, > You have a unique perspective indeed! At dsg we typically discuss > Dhamma and understanding realities rather than speculate about how > awful this group of people or that group of people are. > > Metta, > > Dan > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" > wrote: > > Group, > > > > I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and > > thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the > > definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: > > > > "9. Three Roots (Múla)- > > > > Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites > > are the roots of good. > > > > Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered > > by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. > Craving > > is also used as an equivalent of lobha. > > > > In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a > rule, > > clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, > > ordinarily there is aversion. " > > > > The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" > > priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and > > the Nazis. > > > > The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. > In > > the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's > hate > > for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate > > for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. > > Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and > honored > > both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, > > by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE > > the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and > > therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, > > Chasidat. > > > > The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and > > they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate > > to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave > to > > the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew > > will turn into the Nazi? > > > > toodles, > > colette 46823 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Re: out of social context and The Middle Ways jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: >..... > Joop what norm do you judge me and yourself by? > > With Metta, > Lisa Thanks for calling me 'blunt' I try to combine being honest and having loving kindness to everybody with whom I communicate; but when I had to chose between being nice or being honest, I prefer being honest. That's the norm judging myself. Another norm is that I don't participate in personal communications in this Dhammastudygroup-forum. So about judging you, that's something for email-communication off-list. Metta Joop 46824 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Lobha: case in point Evan_Stamato... Colette, Hmmm... Well, I guess one could look at it in the way of cause and effect or kamma. If a nation goes around killing millions of people around the world and assassinating popularly elected leaders of other nations then why is that nation surprised when a clear message is sent back to it in kind such as the suicide bombers in Israel and the Twin Towers incident in the USA? Hate breeeds hate, war breeds war and peace breeds peace. For those that think that peace as a tool doesn't work in the "real world", one need only look at what Ghandi achieved without resorting to guns and aggression. toodles to you too, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2005 3:27 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Lobha: case in point Group, I recall on Sat. noticing people were concerned about Lobha and thought I'd bring the Abhidhamma to ruckas. Here we have the definition, albeit in it's most simplest terminology: "9. Three Roots (Múla)- Lobha, dosa, and moha are the three roots of evil. Their opposites are the roots of good. Lobha, from Ö lubh, to cling, or attach itself, may be rendered by 'attachment' or 'clinging'. Some scholars prefer 'greed'. Craving is also used as an equivalent of lobha. In the case of a desirable object of sense, there arises, as a rule, clinging or attachment. In the case of an undesirable object, ordinarily there is aversion. " The case in point, where my way of applying these "esoteric" priniciples is met by my reality, tangent, is with the Hebrews and the Nazis. The hebrews are not content with allowing the past to be the past. In the meditational process they dwell on the subject of the Nazi's hate for the hebrew population and in so doing, by dwelling on the hate for their chosen theology they bring into play the hate of others. Now it's documented fact that the Islamic faith respected and honored both the christian and hebrew faiths at a time in history, however, by their own choosing, the hebrews dwell, meditate, CAUSE TO ARISE the latent principle of hate toward the hebrew population and therefore bring about their own Nazi Regime, aka Ariel Sharon, Chasidat. The hebrews cling cleave to the hate that was issued by another and they make that hate their own. They possess, nature, cause the hate to exist and grow. Well, since they, the hebrew chooses to cleave to the hate of the Nazi then doesn't just go to figure that the hebrew will turn into the Nazi? toodles, colette 46825 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma philofillet Hi Colette and all (and Herman at end) > Commendable, thank you for not taking such an agressive attack based > on my views: Ph: I am the least tolerant person here, probably. Let's see how I handle this interesting outburst of internet-age conceptual proliferation. >I call em like I see em. I have no attachments! > of > my greatest exploits using Sex-Magik as a means. How is it possible to use Sex-Magik without having an attachment to it? I guess that's the Magik part. I guess I'll stop there. Do think about lobha (attachment) Colette, as well as dosa (hatred) and moha (delusion) which are the other unwholesome roots. I think all the stories you tell about Jews (Hebrew is a language) and history and whatever else is going on in there are all taking you away from the present moment. The present moment is the only place where we we can begin to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion and cultivate the wholesome rots of generosity, compassion and loving-kindness. And the Buddha assures us that it can be done: "Abandon what is unwholesome, O monks! One can abandon the unwholesome, O monks! If it were not possible, I would not ask you to do so. Cultivate what is wholesome, O monks! One can cultivate the wholesome, O monks! If it were not possible, I would not ask you to do so." (Anguttara Nikaya 2:19) Herman, in passing, sorry if I was snappish with you yesterday. I think I am feeling unexpressed stress about my mother's situation and it snapped a bit. Metta, Phil 46826 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:42pm Subject: Exchange of recorded readings? philofillet Hello Nina, and all I found this from a post from some weeks (months?) back from Nina that I reread: >>> Lodewijk reads on tape Kh. Sujin's Perfections on her request. He accumulates a lot of kusala with this work. He speaks so convincingly about determination perfection, how important it is, that it works as a good reminder for me. Not because he is my husband (I should not be partial), but I am so impressed. I think it can help others to have more confidence in the accumulation of perfections when they hear him speak with such confidence. Ph: I would like to hear this. And I was thinking the other day that it would be nice if we have an exchange system of readings of favourite suttas or commentaries. Listening to suttas, reading them on tape - it's different, somehow. (Also for those of us with weak eyes, it's nice.) I read a good portion of Dhammapada on tape and listen to it sometimes. Would Lodewijk like to trade a copy of my reading of Dhammapada for his reading of Perfections? :) I've benefited a lot from receiving recorded talks (thanks again, Ken H and Sarah and Jon) so if I could return the favour to anyone by sending a reading of Dhammapada, please let me know off-list. If others would like to read and record favourite suttas etc we could have a nice exchange. Metta, Phil 46827 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:16pm Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma philofillet Hi again, Colette I missed a snip, so misquoted you. You said >I call em like I see em. I have no attachments! I should have put a snip here, before you mentionned: > > my greatest exploits using Sex-Magik as a means. And then I asked: > How is it possible to use Sex-Magik without having an attachment > to it? I guess that's the Magik part. Please note that this is a rhetorical question, for you to reflect on. Please don't explain how you use Sex-Magik! Also I'd like you to note a typo I made : "wholesome rots" should of course read "wholesome roots." I feel grateful for your post in a surprising way, because it reminded me of how coming back to the present moment can help me to let go of concern about all the historically-rooted hatred that is being whipped up between Japan and its neighbours (I live in Japan and am married to Japan) because of this and that. It's not important, when you come right down to it. What is important is whatever is happening *right now* (So yes, noting the aversion and pain these things cause you is important, more important than thinking about history or writing about it, by far.) When I am aware of present realities (if the awareness arises, even in my shallow intellectual way) there is no history, no Japan, no Jews, no Nazis, no Colette, no Phil. Just presently arising realities. And that is where we can make progress. At first there was aversion when I read your post. I wanted to mock you. Now there is a feeling of friendliness. Why did that happen? I didn't think about it, I didn't try to generate metta for you. It just happened. Conditions at work, beyond my control. Metta, Phil 46828 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:24pm Subject: Today is Fullmoon Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist on a Full-moon Day ? Simply & easily by joining the Three Refuges and undertaking the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children, since they protects you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... Today though is full-moon pooya day, uposatha day, observance day, where lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I will then out up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha. May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: bhikkhu.samahita@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46829 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:42pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 227 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness] Moha, ignorance, is one of the four akusala cetasikas which are always present when there is akusala citta. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (A Buddhist Manual of Psychological Ethics, §390) about moha, here translated as dullness: * "What on that occasion is dullness? The lack of knowledge, of vision, which is there on that occasion; the lack of coordination, of judgement, of enlightenment (1), of penetration (2); the inability to comprehend, to grasp thoroughly; the inability to compare, to consider, to demonstrate; the folly, the childishness, the lack of intelligence; the dullness that is vagueness, obfuscation, ignorance, the Flood (ogha) of ignorance, the Bond (yoga) of ignorance, the bias (3) of ignorance, the obsession of ignorance, the barrier of ignorance; the dullness that is the root of badness— this is the dullness that there then is." * Ignorance is firmly fixed, it always lies latent and it is hard to eradicate. *** 1) The Atthasåliní (II, 254), in its explanation of this passage of the Dhammasangaùi, states about lack of enlightenment that it is: “not connecting them (things) with impermanence, dukkha and anattå”, and “perceiving in an unreal, distorted way”. 2) No penetration of the four noble Truths. 3) ignorance is a bias, it continually lies latent, in the sense of being firmly fixed. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46830 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, No more splashing for now:) .... --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Sarah: "Desire can desire anything -- > concepts or realities (except lokuttara dhammas). Taste is a paramattha > dhamma. Isn't there desire for certain tastes when we eat?" > > Hi Sarah, > > Good question. What are we desiring when we desire a taste? It isn't the > neutral feeling that arises with taste. .... S: No, I think it's the actual taste of the mango or chocolate (or whatever appeals) as we eat and also desire for the pleasant feeling that arises with that attachment and the attachment as we think and recollect it. The particularly desirable object conditions such attachment by object decisive support condition....very,very quickly. The neutral feeling which arises with the tasting is just one quick citta. Attachment can follow with the subsequent javana cittas in both the tasting sense door process and more so in the immediately following mind door processes. ..... > > It occurred to me today that satipatthana can't figure out what desire > desires. That is a job for psychoanalysis. ... S: I disagree. It can be analysed all we like, but only satipatthana can directly know desire as desire, the rupa taste (or flavour) as taste and the nama, tasting, as tasting. Please let me know if I haven't explained clearly or if you have any further comments. Metta, Sarah ======== 46831 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Sarah, <...> > Now, back to our discussion on whether paramattha dhammas condition > desire and aversion. Abhidhamma says desire or aversion arises with > ignorance. I think it makes more sense to say an ignorance object, > such as the consciousness of a compound whole, conditions the arising > of desire. When we like a taste, the 'taste' is actually a compact > whole (concept). If we experience specific taste (paramattha dhamma) > that taste does not condition the arising of desire. .... S: There is taste the reality and taste the concept about the reality. If you have a sip of tea now, tell me there's no taste experienced. Then tell me there's no desire arising as you taste. Whenever there's desire, ignorance is also there too. This is not just in the Abhidhamma, but throughout the Tipitaka. SN35:136 Delight in Forms "Bhikkhus, devas and humans delight in forms, take delight in forms, rejoice in forms.......delight in sounds.......delight in odours......tastes.....tactile objects....mental phenomena......With the change , fading away, and cessation of forms, devas and humans dwell in suffering." A desirable taste can act as object decisive support condition for desire immediately it's experienced. Lots more on ignorance to come in `Cetasikas' and Nina has responded too. .... > I suspect you will probably disagree with most of the above so the > question I would ask you is how does ignorance function with desire? > When we like a taste what is ignorance ignoring? ... S: I snipped the earlier part. My general comment is that I think it's very difficult to follow the Pali Tipitaka, especially the Abhidhamma, if we try to introduce other ideas, such as scientific ideas or even, dare-I-say-it,-Mayayana ideas, into the mix. That's my vho which you're most welcome to ignore. When we like the taste, ignorance is ignoring the truth that there is a perversion of perception at such a time and that the taste is not worth desiring in anyway, because in truth it's anicca and dukkha. The anagami has eradicated such desires for sense pleasures— he has no more perversion of this kind of perception and consciousness. While we continue to ignorantly find it desirable, the desire will continue to arise. Metta, Sarah ======= 46832 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Larry & all, --- Philip wrote: > I often say that the Buddha taught that Dhamma goes against the > ways of the world but I realized this morning that I don't know for > sure in which way he meant that. > Could anybody supply the sutta passage in which he says so, and also > anything from the commentaries on this? .... S: I think this sutta (which I was just quoting from to Larry)may be the one you were thinking of. Beautiful verses..... From SN35:136(1) Forms (1), Bodhi transl: (Agayha Sutta or Pa.thama-ruupaaraama Sutta) [Spoken by the Buddha] “Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, Tactiles and all objects of mind- Desirable, lovely, agreeable, So long as it’s said: ‘They are.’ “These are considered happiness By the world with its devas; But where these cease, That they consider suffering. “The noble ones have seen as happiness The ceasing of identity. This [view] of those who clearly see Runs counter to the entire world.* “What others speak of as happiness, That the noble ones say is suffering; What others speak of as suffering, That the noble ones know as bliss. “Behold this Dhamma hard to comprehend: Here the foolish are bewildered. For those with blocked minds it is obscure, Sheer darkness for those who do not see. “But for the good it is disclosed, It is light here for those who see. The dullards unskilled in the Dhamma Don’t understand it in its presence. “This Dhamma isn’t easily understood By those afflicted with lust for existence, Who flow along in the stream of existence, Deeply mired in Mara’s realm. “Who else apart from the noble ones Are able to understand this state? When they have rightly known that state, The taintless ones are fully quenched.**” ========================================= *Spk (commentary): “This view of the wise who see (ida.m passantaana.m pa.n.ditaana.m dassara.m) runs counter (paccaniika.m), contrary, to the entire world. For the world conceives the five aggregates as permanent, happiness, self, and beautiful, while to the wise they are impermanent, suffering, nonself, and foul.” ======== **Spk: “Who else except the noble ones are able to know that state of Nibbaana (nibbaanapada.m)? Having known it rightly by the wisdom of arahantship, they immediately become taintless and are fully quenched by the quenching of the defilements (kilesaparinibbaanena parinibbanti). Or else, having become taintless by rightly knowing, in the end they are fully quenched by the quenching of the aggregates (khandhaparinibaanena parinibbanti).” ***** Metta, Sarah ========== 46833 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:14am Subject: Like a madman...... sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Tep, Joop, Herman & all, I had also thought of the following verses in response to Phil’s question about the teachings being ‘against the ways of the world’. *** From the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentary, MN1 (Bodhi transl) [the worldling] “he perceives beings as beings. Having perceived beings as beings, he conceives (himself) in beings; he conceives (himself apart) from beings; he conceives ‘beings are mine’; he delights in beings. What is the reason? Because they have not been fully understood by him, I declare.” *** The commentary gives lots of detail about the 3 ways of mis-perception of beings by way of attachment, conceit and wrong views about people (sakkaaya-di.t.thi). The summing up of the entire commentary section on the misperceptions of the worldling is given: *** “Because he does not understand The person (sakkaaya) as it really is The worldling only generates Conceivings in the person-group (sakkaaya). Though in truth foul and perishable, Painful, void of an inner lord (aparinaayaka), The fool takes it in the opposite way, Grasps hold of it through his conceivings. He contemplates the person-group As beautiful and pleasurable, Plunging in through conceivings of craving Like a moth into a candle flame. Standing on ideas of permanence, Extolling himself for his excellence, Like filth being poured into filth Conceivings of conceit arise. Like a madman his image in a glass, The fool takes the self of this self- These are his conceivings in terms of views. This that we have called ‘conceiving’ Is the very subtle bondage of Mara, Flexible and difficult to break, By this the worldling is held in thrall. Through struggling and striving with all his might, He does not escape the person-group, But circles on like a leash-bound dog Tied to a firmly planted post. This worldling attached to the person-group Is constantly slain with vehement force By the pains of birth, disease, and age, By all the sufferings of the round. Therefore I say to you, good sir, Discern the person with sharp insight As bound to pain, an impure mass, Subject to break up, void of self. The sage perceiving as it is This, the true nature of our being, Abandons all conceiving’s modes And from all suffering finds release.” Lots of material for wise reflection for us all here, I think. Metta, Sarah ======== 46834 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > "The worldling", Sarah, is which one? The one who experiences a > genuine kusala moment? Where is the view of self then? It does not > then arise; it is not 'held'. Later, a wrong view of self again > arises in the worldling, whether that worldling is "outside the > dispensation" or "within the dispensation." .... S: I believe that it is only by hearing and deeply reflecting on the Buddha’s teachings about dhammas or dhatus as anatta that satipatthana can develop, insights can be obtained and the ariyan path attained. I agree that wrong views are very pernicious and this is why they have to be seen clearly for what they are, regardless of the labels. .... > A moment of satipatthana in one outside the dispensation may be > reflected on thus: "'I' have no control over the arising of states or > their characteristics." Later, a conceptual framework may be built > that goes something like this: "A man's will is like a beast standing > between two riders. If God rides, it wills and goes where God > wills...If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan wills. Nor may > it choose to which rider it will run, or which it will seek; but the > riders themselves fight to decide who shall have and hold it." > (Luther's statement of Augustine's conceptualization in "Bondage of > the Will"). ... S: Let me as-humbly-as-I-can suggest, Dan, that you might read such statements (or for that matter, how Howard might read the Heart Sutra) may be without any wrong views about people, God, Satan or in the Heart Sutra case, without any wrong view about the Noble Truths, anatta, the khandhas or nibbana. But would either of you have reached such an interpretation if you had not heard/read (A LOT) of the Buddha’s teachings as contained in the Pali canon? I know this is a rather sensitive topic and don't mean to undermine other teachings. Can you be sure that such interpretations were the intended ones? Would anyone reading just ‘Luther’s statements of Augustine’s conceptualizations’ or the Mahayana sutras, such as the ‘Heart Sutra’ ever reach such conclusions and insights about the development of satipatthana, about anatta, about the khandhas, about conditioned elements and so on? I think this may have been the point that Frank was touching on. I know I wouldn’t and didn’t get the first inkling about namas and rupas and anatta before coming across the Buddha’s teachings in spite of serious studies of Christianity and psychology and lesser studies of other philosophies and religions. This is why in the quote I gave you last time, I believe it says “Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one’s own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self.” Of course, one may have listened to the teachings, understood the truth about anatta to some degree (and be inside the Dispensation), but still read other teachings and still call oneself a Christian, Jew, psychologist or anything else. The only point is that one had to have heard about the various dhammas and anatta as taught by the Buddha. Waiting for the next bombshell and that longer paper....:-). (Howard, I’d be interested in your comments on this. I appreciated your reflections. In conclusion, is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta also your choice for Tep’s quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? Metta, Sarah ====== 46835 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:25am Subject: MN117 with Tep (was: Outside the Dispensation for Dan...) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > >S: Yes, it's the same. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first*. And > >how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as > >wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." > (see > >more under 'Mahaacataariisaka Sutta' in U.P. 17539, 27462, 32731) > > >*Nanamoli/Bodhi footnote: > > >"Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right > >view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates > >formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view > >of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the > >radical destruction of defilements." > > T: You only touched upon the first part of MN 117 (Mahacatarisaka > Sutta), I believed. The missing parts from your discussion are the > following. > > (I) Circling of three path factors - the non-sequential behavior: > > "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & > remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three > qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & > circle > around right view. ... S: Yes, without right view, they arise together and support each other. Without right view, there can be no other path factors arising. .... > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This > is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to > enter > & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these > three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run > & circle > around right resolve. > [ Tep: The circling, the non-sequential nature of the citta development > , > repeats for right speech, right action, and right livelihood. .] ... S: As Nina as explained now, they all arise together. At mundane path moments, 5 or 6 factors and at supramundane moments, 8 path factors. .... > > Tep: Beyond the eightfold path factors, there are two more factors for > the Arahant, and they are built upon samma-samadhi . > > (II) ".... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of > right > concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right > release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight > factors, and the arahant with ten". ... S: As I read it, 8 path factors (Noble 8-fold path), [accompanied of course by other cetasikas too], leading to the full attainment, realization and fruition. I won’t say more as Nina has already said more. Btw, you were asking in another post about our understanding of right concentration. Please look at ‘Concentration – right (Samma Samadhi)’ in U.P. Also try Samadhi and samatha. I remember Jon wrote a very clear post (a ‘leadership post’:-)) on all these terms. Please let us know if you come across it. Pick up any points you wish to comment/disagree on. .... > > Tep: So, right view is not the same as right knowledge, which is > developed only after one has right concentration that are supported by > the previous 7 path factors. Then right release(samma-vimutti) in the > Arahant is built upon right knowledge(samma-nana). ... S: Let’s be clear that right understanding, right view, right knowledge are all pa~n~naa cetasika which performs its functions and has to develop. So if there is no development of right view or panna, supported by the other path factors, it can never become insight or greater wisdom. I’m being a bit lazy to pull out my text now because I think Nina has already dealt with these points. Pls let me know if there is anything I haven’t responded to adequately. Thank you, Nina, for coming in on this thread too. One small point in your post to Herman, while I have your ear. You mentioned that all the khandhas lead to suffering (dukkha) if one clings to them... of course the khandhas are dukkha regardless of whether there is clinging too. But, I agree, no grief or unhappiness on account of them if there is no clinging. As you say, all dhammas are anatta and this ‘does not contradict the practice of loving kindness’ etc. Btw, for your anapanasati thread, you might find it helpful to find the Pali passages in Tipitaka.org to check any Pali terms. Let me know if you need a link. It might be a bit fiddly to find your place in the first place, but after that it should be easy to bookmark it. Might I suggest, like Nina, a paragraph or two every other day with bits of Thai, pali and any of your comments, rather than the long extract once a week? Of course, it’s just what is most convenient to you too. It’s a lot of work. (Nina, there’s a section on unity (ekatta) and naanatta (diversity) in BB’s comy notes of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, p.56 of the booklet. It’s all rather beyond me, so I won’t attempt to quote. Tep, these small booklets of BB’s full sutta and commentary translations are v.good and inexpensive from BPS or Pariyatti, though BPS was out of stock last time we tried to get some extra copies for friends.) Metta, Sarah ====== 46836 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Btw, I liked all your comments and extracts from the recordings in #46694. Thank you for sharing these. --- Philip wrote: >....As Christine said > in a talk, in the West there is the thinking that if we follow a > method, practice in a certain way, we can get our certificate, so to > speak. "By this time next spring I will be X or Y." It doesn't work > that way. It's all lobha. ... S: :-) not just in the West.....the same problem of moha and lobha everywhere.... India 2001 Tom asks what the short-cut is KS: "lobha". ..... >As Kh Sujin says, "it is impossible to do > anything without understanding in order to have understanding." Or > vijja cannot come from avijja. That sounds like a Catch-22, but the > true Dhamma is full of potentially infuriating paradoxes and points > so subtle that they simply can't be grasped by reason. Patience is > so necessary, and intuition. But in the world we live in today > people read about something like satipatthana and they want it ASAP > and it goes wrong. ... S: There you have -- the short-cut of lobha. There's also a good discussion (aka an infuriating paradox) about the rupa experienced in the mind-door being the same and different from the rupa just fallen away in the sense-door:). I think you referred sometime to KS sometimes saying sth which disagrees with her earlier comments. I'm not saying this isn't possible, but in my experience, it's usally a misunderstanding on the part of the listeners as in the small example above. ... > I will at some point post more of that transcript. The talk I'm > referring to is interesting not only re the "there is no Nina" point > but also about Lodewijk's stress on the importance of relationships > with others, and the Brahma-Viharas. ... S: I'll look f/w to it. . I think as you’re finding, that listening, reading and writing dhamma is very therapeutic when we’re facing difficulties. Metta, Sarah ======= 46837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: right speech nilovg Hi Phil, Dan, Colette and all, op 21-06-2005 05:16 schreef Philip op philco777@...: When I am aware of present realities (if the awareness arises, > even in my shallow intellectual way) there is no history, no Japan, > no Jews, no Nazis, no Colette, no Phil. Just presently arising > realities. And that is where we can make progress. ------- N: Yes, completely right. There is no problem if we keep to the reality at this moment. Alas, we are full of defilements and we are bound to go wrong at times, that is human. Therefore, also conventional actions have to be taken. The Buddha took actions and laid down rules for the monks, because it was necessary. So, Yahoo has guidelines: no inflammatory language. This is useful. In general I would say: any way of speech that is ironical, mocking, ridiculing, makes unpleasant reading for others. I always appreciate it very much when people apologize for this. We have such a busy list and many members. It is always beneficial to just keep to the Dhamma, and not go into personal matters, unless it is used as an illustration of Dhamma in daily life and we can learn from such an example. Nina. 46838 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. nilovg Hi Howard, I find your questions very useful, they go to the heart of the matter. Please insist if I have not answered them in a satisfactory way. op 20-06-2005 14:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Quotes N: When I use the word focussing, I do not mean trying to concentrate on a nama > or rupa with an idea of self. It all happens within a moment, because the > right conditions are present. It is very fast, nobody can plan it. > ====================== H: Do you mean to imply by this that there are no conventional actions that > can be taken to support the tendency for momentary concentration to arise? Or, > if there are, what do you understand these to be? Do they include > conventional "paying attention"? -------- N: When discussing your Q. with Lodewijk, we spoke about good conditions being kusala through body, speech and mind, and he said that everyone has to follow his accumulations with regard to this. He also said: He quoted what Kh Sujin said: We discussed that one should not worry if there is very little sati, then there is aversion. We should not lead our life in a forced manner. Sooner or later this will have a bad effect, even though we do not realize this at the moment. To come back to conventional actions, yes, we do take them. We have to find out what is good and helpful for us personally, and nobody else can tell us, there are no rules. Moreover, it has to be the individual's understanding to find out: this is helpful, this serves the purpose of the development of understanding, or: now I am impatient and I cling to a quick result, I am clinging to 'my sati'. Lodewijk mentioned truthfulness that he finds so important. Sincerity is essential, no matter what action we are taking. As to following the stream: we realize that even when we think we are planning, in taking conventional actions, all the same, it can be understood as conditioned, not regulated by a self. In this sense following the stream of life can be a reminder that whatever we do is conditioned. I can only mention what I find useful for myself. Indeed, listening, as you have often heard on dsg. When the alarm goes at an early hour, I would like more nodding and sleep (Larry just posted sloth and torpor, a good meditation!), but I also know that time flies and not much time is left in a day for listening to recordings which I find useful. Sloth and torpor: unwieldiness of mind, no kusala. Kusala citta needs the cetasika wieldiness. Or, I feel tired, but there is work to do in the way of writing, reading, answering questions, and also this is included in listening and considering. As Herman once said, it keeps him occupied with the Dhamma and there is a great difference when he is not with the list. Now for about two years Larry has posted Visuddhimagga, and for me this is most helpful to keep on considering, developing more understanding of nama and rupa, more understanding of conditions and the nature of anatta. We cannot experience all these dhammas as they are, but the study can sink in and slowly understanding of them as conditioned elements develops. I shall quote what I formerly wrote in my 'Listening to the Dhamma': --------- To return to your remark: Do they include conventional "paying attention"? I want to quote again what Sukin wrote: When we read suttas about the six worlds which are the objects appearing one at a time, it can sink in and be a condition for more understanding. We cannot plan what we experience next, and this helps us to see anattaa. Sukin: End quote. It also helps to know what is counteractive to our aim, and the aim is not concentration but understanding. And we should never forget detachment, detachment from the idea of 'I do it, I concentrate'. Nina. 46839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Exchange of recorded readings? nilovg Hi Phil, I thought of you when I wrote that post. Yes, I shall send you an MP3, a friend will burn them, my computer cannot. Please your postal address? Do not send us Dhammapada, thanks for the offer. Lodewijk cannot listen to MP3 which is stuck in my room with the speakers, not movable. It is not practical. Nina. op 21-06-2005 03:42 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Would Lodewijk like to trade a copy of my reading of Dhammapada for > his reading of Perfections? :) 46840 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:38am Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: ... Hallo Colette, In one of your posts you called this 'Dhammastudygroup' esoteric: that's not correct. DSG, that is Abhidhamma, is clear, public, sometimes scholastic, but not esoteric. In another post you said 'HERE in Chicago'; that's a funny mistake, for most reader is is 'THERE is Chicago'; perhaps in the one moment you wrote this, you thought your place was the centre of the universe. The rest of all your messages I did not understand or did not read, but I think I agree with it either. With metta Joop 46841 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:47am Subject: 24 Conditions, 24 Paccaya, Patthana Dhamma htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Whatever beings are thinking, whatever beings are perceiving, whatever earthly-worldly people are writing, saying, speaking, talking, discussing there are only 4 dhamma in essence. Nothing is more than these 4 dhamma. These 4 dhammas are known as paramattha dhamma or 'ultimate realities' because when ultimately seen there is nothing but one of these 4 realities whatever is analysed. Paramattha is a Pali word. It is made up of 'parama' and 'attha'. Attha means 'meaning' 'essence' 'intrinsic existence'. Parama means 'farthest' 'superior' 'highest' 'most excellent' 'best'. So paramattha dhamma means 'most excellent intrinsic essence or 'ultimate realities'. Whatever happen wherever and whenever there happen these paramattha dhamma. But nibbana is not a sankhata dhamma or conditioned dhamma and it does not arise or does not fall away and it does not happen. So in this world, on this earth, in these 31 realms or 31 planes of existence what happening are all happening of ruupa dhamma and naama dhamma and nothing more than that. There are 4 paramattha dhamma. They are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. Citta and cetasika are naama dhamma and ruupa are ruupa dhamma. Naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma are sankhata dhamma or conditioned dhamma. Nibbana is asankhata dhamma and nibbana is not a conditioned dhamma. Sabbe sankharaa aniccaa'ti; all conditioned dhamma are impermanent. Sabbe sankhaara dukkhaa'ti; all conditioned dhamma are suffering and non-desirable. Citta and cetasikas or naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma are sankhaara dhamma. All dhamma that is citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana are anatta ; sabbe dhammaa anattaa'ti. Anatta is a Pali word and made up of 'ana' and 'atta'. Ana means 'no' 'not' 'nothing' and 'atta' means 'self'. Anatta means 'non- self' or no self. So any dhamma is not self. Any dhamma cannot be controlled by any outside power but dhamma happen on their own accord and they run their course and nobody can influence dhamma. When these dhamma or naama and ruupa are happening they do not happen alone. But they happen by interacting with other dhamma and they each depend on others and others also depend on condition. There are 2 teachings of The Buddha that reveal conditional relationship. They are paticcasamuppaada dhamma and patthaana dhamma. Paticcasamuppaada dhamma just show that 'this' dhamma causes arising of 'that' dhamma and 'that' dhamma cause 'arising of 'this' dhamma. But paticcasamuppaada do not show how the cause and effect are related. Unlike paticcasamuppaada dhamma, patthaana dhamma reveal all the conditional relationship among dhamma and patthana also show how they are related to each other. Patthana dhamma is cited as the last text in the 7 abhidhamma texts of The Buddha teaching and it is the most profound, the most difficult and the most essenceful dhamma ever exist. If dhamma can be seen these patthana dhamma are actually happening in our daily life and they will be seen. There are in summary 24 paccaya or 24 conditions that dhamma are related to each other or dhamma condition other dhamma with 24 conditions. All 24 paccaya dhamma have been explained in this serial pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' at 'www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html'. Currently there are 107 pages. There are more details in the 24 texts of Patthana Dhamma. These 24 texts are not of one text for one paccayo. 24 texts are details about patthana dhamma. In summary there are 24 paccaya or 24 conditions even though there are many more sub-conditions apart from these 24 conditions. 24 paccaya or 24 conditions are_ 1. hetu paccayo or 'root condition' 2. aarammana paccayo or 'object condition' 3. adhipati paccayo or 'predominance condition' 4. anantara paccayo or 'proximity condition' 5. samanantara paccayo or 'contiguity condition' 6. sahajaata paccayo or 'conascence condition' 7. annamanna paccayo or 'mutuality condition' 8. nissaya paccayo or 'dependence condition' 9. upanissaya paccayo or 'decisive support condition' 10.purejaata paccayo or 'prenascence condition' 11.pacchaajaata paccayo or 'postnasence condition' 12.aasevana paccayo or 'repeatition condition' 13. kamma paccayo or 'kamma condition' 14. vipaaka paccayo or 'vipaaka condition' or 'cooked-result condition' 15. aahaara paccayo or 'nutriment condition' 16. indriya paccayo or 'faculty condition' 17. jhaana paccayo or 'jhaana condition' or 'absoprtion condition' 18. magga paccayo or 'path condition' 19. sampayutta paccayo or 'association condition' 20. vippayutta paccayo or 'dissociation condition' 21. atthi paccayo or 'presence condition' 22. natthi paccayo or 'absence condition' 23. vigata paccayo or 'disappearance condition' 24. avigata paccayo or 'non-disappearance condition' When teachings of The Buddha decay the first sasana will be pariyatti sasana or theoretical teachings. When pariyatti decay the first pitaka or basket of teachings will be abhidhamma pitaka. When abhidhamma pitaka decay the first text that would decay will be patthana dhamma. To preserve The Buddha teachings patthana dhamma should be discussing. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46842 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 I like your comments, Sarah. Thank-you. I do have a few quick responses to add. S: "Let me as-humbly-as-I-can suggest, Dan, that you might read such statements (or for that matter, how Howard might read the Heart Sutra) may be without any wrong views about people, God, Satan or in the Heart Sutra case, without any wrong view about the Noble Truths, anatta, the khandhas or nibbana. But would either of you have reached such an interpretation if you had not heard/read (A LOT) of the Buddha's teachings as contained in the Pali canon? I know this is a rather sensitive topic and don't mean to undermine other teachings." I don't rightly know, what would have been had conditions been different. And in retrospect, it is difficult to discern the whole range of conditions that bring to fruition any given moment of satipatthana or insight that may arise. Reading/hearing are certainly associated with development. I'm sure you recall a flurry of posts of mine a few years ago on anatta, silabbataparamasa, formal sitting, drugs, etc. -- "O.K. After these tough years of being a pain in the butt, Dan finally understands at least SOMETHING beyond how to be a constant thorn in the side." What caused my "conversion" back then? A whole lot of conditions, but the proximate cause was my reading of a fiery debate about the distinction between "samma vayama" and "conventional right effort" that Luther and Erasmus had in the 1520s. There were many striking passages that indicate a fairly sophisticated understanding of the utter inability of the Self to accomplish *any* development by "conventional" effort. The book ("Bondage of the Will") is 320 pages long, though, so just a quick taste... Erasmus wrote: "We should strive with all our might, resort to the healing balm of penitence, and try by all means to compass the mercy of God, without which man's will and endeavor is ineffective." To which Luther responded: "The Christless, Spiritless words are chillier than very ice...This is what your words assert: that there is strength within us; there is such a thing as striving with all one's strength; there is mercy in God; there are ways of encompassing that mercy; there is a God who is by nature just, and kindness itself; and so on. But if one does not know what this 'strength' is -- what men can do, and what is done to them--what this 'striving' is, what is the extent and limit of its effectiveness--then what should he do?" On and on the discussion goes... what strength and power is there in conventional right effort? Luther argues, "None whatsoever." Luther was clearly inspired by insight deeper than an intellectual understanding of fairy tales. You don't write a book like "Bondage of the Will" (or "On Christian Liberty", or have a book written about you like "Here I stand") without having insight into the nature of reality. An understanding of anatta? Not to the depth required for full liberation, but certainly deeper than any strictly intellectual understanding of Buddha's teachings. Deep enough to realize what silabbataparamasa is and what samma vayama is not. What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and listening to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. Sarah: "Can you be sure that such interpretations were the intended ones?" The understanding being described in Augustine's beast analogy is simple: the Self has no power to will kusala cittas. This is a valuable and real insight. You may not like Augustine's conclusions about God and Satan driving the will, but he clearly understands that there is no power of Self to bring about the desired cittas. Sarah: "Would anyone reading just `Luther's statements of Augustine's conceptualizations' or the Mahayana sutras, such as the `Heart Sutra' ever reach such conclusions and insights about the development of satipatthana, about anatta, about the khandhas, about conditioned elements and so on?" I don't think reading alone does much of anything. Also necessary is wise attention. However, if there is wise attention to Augustine's words or Luther's (or Jesus' or Paul's), then there can very well be satipatthana, an understanding of anatta (at a depth not fully liberating), about khandas, and so on. Sarah: "I know I wouldn't and didn't get the first inkling about namas and rupas and anatta before coming across the Buddha's teachings in spite of serious studies of Christianity and psychology and lesser studies of other philosophies and religions." And I didn't have the faintest inkling about anatta before reading Luther, despite having studied the Buddha's teachings for years and having practiced meditation for well over a decade both in intensive retreats and daily sessions for one, two, three hours. That's not to say that I have a deep understanding now (I decidedly do not), but an inkling does arise now and then. > Waiting for the next bombshell and that longer paper....:-). Please do be patient. It may be several months, or it may come out in dribbles (like last week's comments to Jon or today's to you), or it may be next week. > for Tep's quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. Metta, Dan 46843 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Dan) - In a message dated 6/21/05 4:44:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: (Howard, I’d be interested in your comments on this. I appreciated your reflections. In conclusion, is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta also your choice for Tep’s quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? ====================== I do believe that the Buddha's teachings are the most perfect presentation of the Dhamma. I don't believe that it is the sole source, but that in limited ways one can come to certain realizations through other means. Whether or not one needs to eventually hear "the" Dhamma, and how much of it one needs to hear I really don't know, and I see little point in hypothesizing about this. I am personally grateful to have come across the Buddha's Dhamma in this lifetime, very grateful. One thing I will say: I do not believe that hearing and contemplating are sufficient forms of practice. I believe that the Buddha spent 45 years to spell that out! I don't have a favorite sutta. ;-) ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46844 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/21/05 5:56:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I find your questions very useful, they go to the heart of the matter. Please insist if I have not answered them in a satisfactory way. ====================== Thank you for the lengthy reply. However, with great respect, I don't see direct answers to my questions in it, but a kind of stepping around them. My inference is that the real answer is: No, there is nothing to do except listen to the teachings and think about them, these being all that are required. (Surprisingly I missed any mention of attending to whatever arises in the present moment, but I guess the assumption is that there is nothing volitional to be done in that regard, it either happening or not "depending on conditions" - which, to me, in the absence of intentional actions, means depending on luck.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46845 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet Hi Sarah > S: I think this sutta (which I was just quoting from to Larry)may be the > one you were thinking of. Beautiful verses..... > > From SN35:136(1) Forms (1), Bodhi transl: > (Agayha Sutta or Pa.thama-ruupaaraama Sutta) Yes, that's the one! Thanks so much, and for typing it for us. Thanks for the other posts too. As for Kh Sujin possibly contradicting herself, no, it's not that, but just that answers can come in many layers, according to the degree of insight they apply to - as you said the other day re the comment you made in the talk about the real meaning of pariyati - does it refer to the awareness of the reality that is arising at that moment, for example the doubt and frustration that might arise in response to reflecting on a impossibly subtle citta process, or is it just knowing that there is such a process, and that it is anatta? As you said, both answers are correct. I am finding myself less and less prone to judging Kh Sujin, wondering why she is considered so wise and so on, though I still do at times, naturally enough. I understand that the point is no being in the presence of a wise woman, but being in the company of right understanding - whoever it is arising through. Metta, Phil 46846 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:09am Subject: Definition-help foamflowers Hi Everyone! Htoo, nice to see you back and I put your site on my favorites list, Excellent study material. I have a word that needs to be researched: sankharaupekkhanana Anyone know where I can start it's not in the Pali Reference information I have. Thanks, with metta, Lisa 46847 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:18am Subject: Patthaana Dhamma online ebook htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Patthaana Dhamma'' ebook has been published online. It contains 107 pages as contents and all together there are 111 pages. One page is empty as it is still under construction. It is index page 108. Any comments are welcome and discussions may be available in dialogue form if there are questions, queries, criticism, addition, corrections or anything. The ebook is available online at following the web site. '' http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana.html ''. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46848 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:41am Subject: Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta and its implications ( 01) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, On one occasion, when The Buddha was living in Kammaasa Dhamma village of Kuru country, which is close to today Deli province, He addressed to His disciples bhikkhus as ''Bhikkhave....'' and the disciples all replied to The Buddha with respect as 'Bhaddante'. Then The Buddha preached the following teachings, which is the complete set of Dhamma that can lead to total liberation. The Buddha said ''There is only one way or there is a single way that beings have to follow 1. in order to cleanse or purify the mind 2. in order to overcome sorrow and lamentation 3. in order to extinguish the fire of suffering and aversion 4. in order to attain path-knowledge 5. in order to experience fruition-knowledge and nibbana. That single way is four frames of reference of mindfulness.'' Which four? Under the teachings of The Buddha, 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or frame of reference of mindfulness to body-derived ruupa dhamma The trainee perceives body-derived ruupas seeing them as ruupas at all cost, in detail, in the widest sense with clear understanding and persistent unwithdrawing effort and mindfulness in order not to arise attachment and aversion that may arise when loka or five clinging aggregates are being encountered. 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana or frame of reference of mindfulness to feeling-naama dhamma The trainee perceives feeling-naama dhamma seeing them as naama at all cost, in detail, in the widest sense with clear understanding and persistent unwithdrawing effort and mindfulness in order not to arise attachment and aversion that may arise when loka or five clinging aggregates are being encountered. 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana or frame of reference of mindfulness to consciousness-naama dhamma The trainee perceives consciousness-naama dhamma seeing them as naama at all cost, in detail, in the widest sense with clear understanding and persistent unwithdrawing effort and mindfulness in order not to arise attachment and aversion that may arise when loka or five clinging aggregates are being encountered. 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana or frame of reference of mindfulness to dhamma The trainee perceives dhamma as dhamma and not as self seeing them as dhamma and not as self at all cost, in detail, in the widest sense with clear understanding and persistent unwithdrawing effort and mindfulness in order not to arise attachment and aversion that may arise when loka or five clinging aggregates are being encountered. A. Kaayaanupassanaa Satipatthaana (contemplation on the body) How does he perceive body-derived rupas seeing as ruupa? Under the instructions in the teachings of The Buddha, the trainee or the practitioner directs the mind right to the object. The trainee in question may be in lying posture, in sitting posture, in standing posture. Or he may well be in walking posture. In any posture , in any position, he may direct to any object. In order not to scatter and disperse the mind he directs his mind to the primary object. What is the primary object? Human beings are breathing beings and this phenomenon can be directed as the primary object as there always is the activity of breathing and it causes arising of different ruupas. Body-derived ruupas are the object of kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana. So the bodily movements caused by breathing can be assumed as the primary object. When this is said, all other objects become secondary objects. Even though breathing itself is nothing, the breathing causes bodily movements. It is these movements that the trainee perceives as body- derived ruupas seeing them as ruupa. In any posture, the trainee breathes in remembering to direct to body-derived ruupas and breathes out remembering to direct to bodily ruupas. As all dhamma are selfless or non-self and are not controllable, continuous remembering to direct to breathing movements is totally impossible. This happens because there are many many conditions that support dhamma to arise. But continuous noting on dhamma whenever remember is possible and this noting may be on the feeling, on the mind, on the dhamma that are non-self, and on body-derived ruupas. For descriptive purpose, the reference of mindfulness will be presented in four frames. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46849 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: Definition-help htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > Htoo, nice to see you back and I put your site on my favorites list, > Excellent study material. > > I have a word that needs to be researched: sankharaupekkhanana > > Anyone know where I can start it's not in the Pali Reference > information I have. > > Thanks, with metta, > Lisa -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Lisa, Simple definition is not too difficult. You can just type in the search box of any search engine and then go for Pali dictionary and choose one. Then you can look for the word you need to know. Sankhaarupekkhaa~naana Sankhaara + upekkhaa + ~naana But in real sense it is hard to understand unless you have meet that knowledge or knowing that essence, which needs personal experience. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46850 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: Definition-help foamflowers > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Lisa, > > Simple definition is not too difficult. You can just type in the search box of any search engine and then go for Pali dictionary and choose > one. Then you can look for the word you need to know. > > Sankhaarupekkhaa~naana/ Sankhaara + upekkhaa + ~naana > > But in real sense it is hard to understand unless you have meet that > knowledge or knowing that essence, which needs personal experience. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Thank you Htoo, I'm at work and on lunch break...googled the word as sankhara upekha nana and found this: the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations' (Sankhara-upekkha-nana). Plus I found a large amount of articles on this 'indifference to formations.' Thanks again for the information Htoo, Question: If I know this kind of indifference through personal experience would it be important for anyone else to know? I don't say this with any negativity Please don't take the statement as argument I am just curious. I just question who else could really know if 'I knew this state in a personal way' or would care to know if I actually experienced this. If I did know this state would it help anyone else to know this state as well? Are these questions silly and intrusive let me know and I won't ask again. With Metta, Lisa 46851 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: Definition-help htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: Lisa wrote: Thank you Htoo, I'm at work and on lunch break...googled the word as sankhara upekha nana and found this: the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations' (Sankhara-upekkha-nana). Plus I found a large amount of articles on this 'indifference to formations.' Thanks again for the information Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Lisa, sankhaara in sankha-upekkha-naana is not formation. It is sankhaara in general. That is all naama dhamma and all ruupa dhamma are sankhaara dhamma. All these panca-upadanakkhandha or 5 clinging aggregates have to be seen in equanimity and with balanced mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Question: If I know this kind of indifference through personal experience would it be important for anyone else to know? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Important, of course. Indifference is not that right for upekkha here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: I don't say this with any negativity Please don't take the statement as argument I am just curious. I just question who else could really know if 'I knew this state in a personal way' or would care to know if I actually experienced this. If I did know this state would it help anyone else to know this state as well? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Indirectly yes. But you cannot control anything and you cannot make arise anything in other at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Are these questions silly and intrusive let me know and I won't ask again. With Metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine Lisa. These questions should be raised actually. Do not worry. Keep asking, answering, studying, developing knowledge and wisdom. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46852 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, At the dinner table I told Lodewijk about your question, and now I let him speak. I had my note book and wrote it all down. It will not be satisfactory yet, and please tell us. You really render us a service, because it makes us think of other ways of explaining, approaching the problem from all sides. Lodewijk said that it is not easy to answer your questions. op 21-06-2005 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: ... I don't see > direct answers to my questions in it, but a kind of stepping around them. My > inference is that the real answer is: No, there is nothing to do except listen > to the teachings and think about them, these being all that are required. > (Surprisingly I missed any mention of attending to whatever arises in the > present > moment, but I guess the assumption is that there is nothing volitional to be > done in that regard, it either happening or not "depending on conditions" - > which, to me, in the absence of intentional actions, means depending on luck.) ------ Lodewijk: the answer is with Howard himself. What is real for himself. You should not theorize too much. You have read, you have listened and you came to the Dhamma. It is a process in movement by which knowledge accumulates step by step. It grows. This has happened to you. Why should we torture ourselves with thoughts of 'how can I, what should I do.' It is obvious that progress has been made, and slowly, slowly step by step a certain amount of understanding has developed. Look at the present moment and you will understand that you understand. Listening is not the only condition, there are many more. Good friendship, a decent livelihood, the education by your parents, the intelligence you were born with. The Jewish wisdom that came with your upbringing.> Nina adds: from your birth on there were conditions at work. The family you were born into has been conditioned by kamma. You had a classical education, Latin and Greek, reading Plato. Your philosophical interest, phenomenology. All these are conditions that brought you to this point in time today. Always pondering on Dhamma, always asking questions. It is all conditioned, you did not plan anything when you approached the Dhamma, it happened because of conditions. This has not to do with luck. I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional action to concentrate on nama and rupa. Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. Does it make sense to ask such a question? But you can do something. Do what you have to do in daily life, it is very simple. The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. We should know that it is conditioned by many, many factors. Sure, there is action, in daily life, one does one's normal duties. There can be a beginning of understanding that the moments of our life are conditioned. > ***** We then spoke about many great philosophers who had an inkling of non-self, like Proust. But only the Buddha could explain very precisely what is anatta. We should discuss more on: *what* it is that is anatta. We find it in the suttas: the Buddha speaks about seeing, hearing, and all the sense impressions that arise separately. A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, it is there already, and so is hearing. No need to try to focus on it. We have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the source of the sound, the plane. Gradually we can learn the anattaness of realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the right conditions. I just read in one of your other posts: Lodewijk: Perhaps you should ask Lodewijk more about this point, he just finished reading on tape the whole book of Kh Sujin about these. What he says is true: all activities of human life. Perfections, these are not words, they are all forms of kusala through body, speech and mind. There are many ways we may not have considered. It is well worth considering. They are different ways to be less self-seeking, more generous, more thoughtful, to be less overcome by akusala. Nina. P.S. How strange, Dan writes just now about an inkling of anatta in other philosophies I was just discussing with Lodewijk. It must be in the air. 46853 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: Definition-help foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Sankharupeckkha: knowledge with equanimity towards formations of body/mind Dear Htoo, Are these references good translations? Vipassana Nanas: the insight knowledges: http://www.buddhanet.net/brahmaviharas/bvg000.htm 1. Namarupa Pariccheda: knowledge of the distinction between body/mind. 2. Paccaya Pariggaha: knowledge of conditionality, i.e. cause and effect. 3. Sammasana: knowledge by comprehension, which sees the 3 characteristics (Tri Lakkhana). 4. Udayabbaya: knowledge of arising and passing away (anicca). 5. Bhanga: knowledge of dissolution, endings, deasings. 6. Bhaya: knowledge of the fearful nature of body/mind. 7. Adinava: knowledge of misery ( seeing mind/body as peril, danger). 8. Nibbida: knowledge of disenchantment. (dispassion arises). 9. Muncitkayata: knowledge of the desire for deliverance. 10. Patisankha: knowledge which investigates the Path to Deliverance. 11. Sankharupeckkha: knowledge with equanimity towards formations of body/mind. 12. Anuloma: knowledge of adaption. knowledge which conforms with Ariya Sacca. 13. Gotrabhu: maturity knowledge (change of lineage) knowledge which cuts off worldly states. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mahasib2.htm The neutral feeling (Upekkha), which is neither painful nor pleasant often happens in the mind or in the body. But as a sensation it is hard to discern. Only when concentration is especially strong, will this neither-painful-nor-pleasant neutral feeling come to prominence after the disappearance of pain and before the appearance of pleasure, or after the disappearance of pleasure and before the appearance of pain. You should note this neutral feeling, too. It is when the knowledge of the arising and passing away is well developed and the Knowledge of Passing Away is gained that the neutral feeling be comes apparent. More so when the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations' (Sankhara- upekkha-nana) is achieved. In that case, you must note this upekkha, the neutral feeling. With metta, Lisa 46854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: equanimity about formations. nilovg Hi Lisa and Htoo, Nice you are back, Htoo. May I just add something? Sankhaarupekkhaa, equanimity about formations is a high degree of insight knowledge. Through the development of paññaa there comes to be more and more detachment from all conditioned dhammas and the inclination grows towards the unconditioned dhamma, nibbaana. Of course insight has to be developed stage by stage, and to begin with a precise knowledge of nama and rupa must be developed, otherwise there could not be detachment from them. As Htoo says, No, nor in ourselves. Paññaa develops step by step. But knowing about this stage is useful, it teaches us that paññaa leads to detachment. Nina. op 21-06-2005 20:37 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Question: If I know this kind of indifference through personal > experience would it be important for anyone else to know? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Important, of course. Indifference is not that right for upekkha here. 46855 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Lodewijk - In a message dated 6/21/05 3:23:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, At the dinner table I told Lodewijk about your question, and now I let him speak. I had my note book and wrote it all down. It will not be satisfactory yet, and please tell us. You really render us a service, because it makes us think of other ways of explaining, approaching the problem from all sides. Lodewijk said that it is not easy to answer your questions. op 21-06-2005 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: ... I don't see > direct answers to my questions in it, but a kind of stepping around them. My > inference is that the real answer is: No, there is nothing to do except listen > to the teachings and think about them, these being all that are required. > (Surprisingly I missed any mention of attending to whatever arises in the > present > moment, but I guess the assumption is that there is nothing volitional to be > done in that regard, it either happening or not "depending on conditions" - > which, to me, in the absence of intentional actions, means depending on luck.) ------ Lodewijk: the answer is with Howard himself. What is real for himself. You should not theorize too much. You have read, you have listened and you came to the Dhamma. It is a process in movement by which knowledge accumulates step by step. It grows. This has happened to you. Why should we torture ourselves with thoughts of 'how can I, what should I do.' It is obvious that progress has been made, and slowly, slowly step by step a certain amount of understanding has developed. Look at the present moment and you will understand that you understand. Listening is not the only condition, there are many more. Good friendship, a decent livelihood, the education by your parents, the intelligence you were born with. The Jewish wisdom that came with your upbringing.> ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I like the forgoing very much! As to conditions, I would add, essentially, in my opinion, the practices advocated by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------- Nina adds: from your birth on there were conditions at work. The family you were born into has been conditioned by kamma. You had a classical education, Latin and Greek, reading Plato. Your philosophical interest, phenomenology. All these are conditions that brought you to this point in time today. Always pondering on Dhamma, always asking questions. It is all conditioned, you did not plan anything when you approached the Dhamma, it happened because of conditions. This has not to do with luck. I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional action to concentrate on nama and rupa. Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. ---------------------------------------- Howard: There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". If this were not so, then everyone who ever heard the Dhamma would make progress, just by virtue of being a "hearer". As to there being an idea of self, well, of course, for all worldlings there is the idea of self, and even for ariyans who have not gone all the way there is the sense of self. So what? That doesn't justify inaction. ---------------------------------------- Does it make sense to ask such a question? But you can do something. Do what you have to do in daily life, it is very simple. The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But one must pay attention! -------------------------------------- We should know that it is conditioned by many, many factors. Sure, there is action, in daily life, one does one's normal duties. There can be a beginning of understanding that the moments of our life are conditioned. > ***** We then spoke about many great philosophers who had an inkling of non-self, like Proust. But only the Buddha could explain very precisely what is anatta. -------------------------------------------- Howard: From my experience, that is so. Others provide only halfway measures. ------------------------------------------- We should discuss more on: *what* it is that is anatta. We find it in the suttas: the Buddha speaks about seeing, hearing, and all the sense impressions that arise separately. A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, it is there already, and so is hearing. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but animals hear it too! -------------------------------------------- No need to try to focus on it. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I disagree. ----------------------------------------- We have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the source of the sound, the plane. ----------------------------------------- Howard: If we pay careful attention (a bif IF), we can come to know the diffrerence. But we have to pay attention! --------------------------------------- Gradually we can learn the anattaness of realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the right conditions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: If our own volitional actions have no bearing on it, then that is exactly what I mean by "luck". Good luck if the conditions "happen" to be useful, and bad luck otherwise. But if we follow the path of cultivation laid out by the Buddha, then we are no longer depending on dumb luck. ----------------------------------------- I just read in one of your other posts: Lodewijk: Perhaps you should ask Lodewijk more about this point, he just finished reading on tape the whole book of Kh Sujin about these. What he says is true: all activities of human life. Perfections, these are not words, they are all forms of kusala through body, speech and mind. There are many ways we may not have considered. It is well worth considering. They are different ways to be less self-seeking, more generous, more thoughtful, to be less overcome by akusala. Nina. P.S. How strange, Dan writes just now about an inkling of anatta in other philosophies I was just discussing with Lodewijk. It must be in the air. ------------------------------------ Howard: It's good luck, I guess! ;-)) ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46856 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:09am Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma ksheri3 Hi Phil, Wonderful to make such an astute observation of the reality! Thank you for this post you have entered. It is most welcome! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Colette and all (and Herman at end) > > > Commendable, thank you for not taking such an agressive attack > based > > on my views: > > Ph: I am the least tolerant person here, probably. Let's see how I > handle this interesting outburst of internet-age conceptual > proliferation. colette: that is so cute! ;)) I mean you take the posts and conceptualize them into their own unique persective that you manifest either by ignorance or volition, yet you seem to have, I believe this is what Sarah and I were debating, nana "- is that which understands the reality (Com.) Here nana is synonymous with wisdom, reason, or knowledge. It is apposed to moha (ignorance, delusion, or stupidity). What I refer to here is how he, you, Phil, have taken it as an "outburst" when it is simply an interaction. No emotion at all. That is why this internet is such a "mind-door" type of medium. Yet, the above has been placed into motion, heat, therfore we are to deal with this as reality/illusion. > > >I call em like I see em. I have no attachments! > > > of > > my greatest exploits using Sex-Magik as a means. > > How is it possible to use Sex-Magik without having an attachment > to it? I guess that's the Magik part. colette: No shit man! exactly! Sex is such an elemental & fundamental part of life yet is so misunderstood and misused yet those who attempt to master it's parts, characteristics, it's essence are in for a VERY ROUGH RIDE! I have, from the second I found the internet and it's ABSOLUTE VALUE to my studies in the esoteric that I want to move away from the use of sex, for lack of better terminology, Magik as a means for/of enlightenment. Sex itself is such a quagmire of pestillence yet is akin to a cornerstone of construction. I'm very happy to say that I've found much safer avenues, vehicles, to use for my meditations in vipissana. From what little I saw, only the contents of her e-book, Sarah is rather well versed in the Vipissana meditations. > > I guess I'll stop there. Do think about lobha (attachment) > Colette, as well as dosa (hatred) and moha (delusion) which are the > other unwholesome roots. colette: without question lobha, dosa, and moha are 3 Roots of Evil, although I like your terminology "unwholesome" much better than evil. Delusion can also be understood to be ignorance and would likely mislead the aspirant where the aspirant can be abused by Nivarani. "Nivarani - is derived from ni + root 'var', to obstruct, to hinder. They ar so called because they obstruct the way to celestial and Nibbanic bliss. According to the commentary this term means that which prevents the arising of good thoughts in the way of jhanas, etc., or that which does not allow the jhanas to arise, or that which obstructs the eye of wisdom. " > > I think all the stories you tell about Jews (Hebrew is a language) > and history and whatever else is going on in there are all taking > you away from the present moment. > > The present moment is the only place where we we can begin to > eradicate greed, hatred and delusion and cultivate the wholesome > rots of generosity, compassion and loving-kindness. colette: I can agree with the above statement however I only make such statements as facts in the purpose to show that by rephrasing, or re-evaluating reality we may be in the position to remove moha (that which clouds the mind's eye, smoke & mirrors). The chance exists that because of our ignorance we have mislabeled, misrepresented certain realities and because we have this false impression, this delusion, we are mislead down an incorrect path. Maybe another path is more fruitful, no? > > And the Buddha assures us that it can be done: "Abandon what is > unwholesome, O monks! One can abandon the unwholesome, O monks! If > it were not possible, I would not ask you to do so. Cultivate what > is wholesome, O monks! One can cultivate the wholesome, O monks! If > it were not possible, I would not ask you to do so." (Anguttara > Nikaya 2:19) colette: this is true! PRAVDA! I have been forced to renounced materialism so many times in my life, and I am now being able to predict when the masses of those caught in the web the wheel of life, will rise up and take my little materialism from me as if this was their way of attacking me, by rendering me without safety, security, etc. What they do to me is actually what they do to themselves by means of their own attachment to the greed, lust, obsession, from the moha that laughs at them for their gulability. > > > Herman, in passing, sorry if I was snappish with you yesterday. I > think I am feeling unexpressed stress about my mother's situation > and it snapped a bit. colette: there are regretable things done in everyone's life yet through meditation we can recognize why (I know the pali phrase I'm looking for in the Abhidhamma yet don't have the time to find it, possibly tomorrow) these/those events/actions occured such as harsh speech and by taking the "high road", the educated road, we can rationalize the events which took place and recognize them as illusion not as something we are to be sorry for doing or saying since it was done or said. Such psychology is found in the "kabalion" of hermeticism. Thank you for the intelligent response and opinion! toodles, colette 46857 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:19am Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again, Colette > > I missed a snip, so misquoted you. > > You said > > >I call em like I see em. I have no attachments! > > I should have put a snip here, before you mentionned: > > > > my greatest exploits using Sex-Magik as a means. > > And then I asked: > > > How is it possible to use Sex-Magik without having an > attachment > > to it? I guess that's the Magik part. > > Please note that this is a rhetorical question, for you to > reflect on. Please don't explain how you use Sex-Magik! colette: DUH! Do you think I would be such an ignorant and misleading fool as to advocate the use of Sex-magik, tantra such as in the Kamma Sutra? That would take many more yrs of reflection before I would do something so extreme and not conducive to enlightenment in the uninitiated. I have seen many things in the short time I have been here and have no desire to expose any "tricks of the trade" sortofspeak which we are using in front of the uneducated or unenlightened. It is not my place or desire to have that responsibility placed upon me! > > Also I'd like you to note a typo I made : "wholesome rots" should > of course read "wholesome roots." I feel grateful for your post in a > surprising way, because it reminded me of how coming back to the > present moment can help me to let go of concern about all the > historically-rooted hatred that is being whipped up between Japan > and its neighbours (I live in Japan and am married to Japan) because > of this and that. It's not important, when you come right down to > it. What is important is whatever is happening *right now* (So yes, > noting the aversion and pain these things cause you is important, > more important than thinking about history or writing about it, by > far.) When I am aware of present realities (if the awareness arises, > even in my shallow intellectual way) there is no history, no Japan, > no Jews, no Nazis, no Colette, no Phil. Just presently arising > realities. And that is where we can make progress. colette: this is good meditation! To allow the mind to focus one- pointedness, and to retain that one-pointedness where-ever that mind leads or takes you. The past is nothing and cannot be gotten back, at least or most, it is a foundation, a causation of the present. The future will always be there waiting for the present, the here & now, to construct it. > > At first there was aversion when I read your post. I wanted to > mock you. Now there is a feeling of friendliness. Why did that > happen? I didn't think about it, I didn't try to generate metta for > you. It just happened. Conditions at work, beyond my control. colette: I know exactly what you mean. This feeling to mock those that are with you is very strong for myself too yet I've been realizing that as I mock the illusions that others dish out to me it is making myself stronger and more confident of my actions and how kamma is generated. Thus my desire and need to mock is subsiding as though I were empiting it from myself. Wonderful discourse or is that intercourse? Again I thank you sir! toodles, colette 46858 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: right speech ksheri3 Hi Nina, Pardon me, maybe it is you that has the grasp of the vipissana meditaional, your name does ring a bell here! Your below statement also rings true Your presence is most appreciated! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, Dan, Colette and all, > op 21-06-2005 05:16 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > When I am aware of present realities (if the awareness arises, > > even in my shallow intellectual way) there is no history, no Japan, > > no Jews, no Nazis, no Colette, no Phil. Just presently arising > > realities. And that is where we can make progress. > ------- > N: Yes, completely right. There is no problem if we keep to the reality at > this moment. > Alas, we are full of defilements and we are bound to go wrong at times, that > is human. > Therefore, also conventional actions have to be taken. The Buddha took > actions and laid down rules for the monks, because it was necessary. > So, Yahoo has guidelines: no inflammatory language. This is useful. In > general I would say: any way of speech that is ironical, mocking, > ridiculing, makes unpleasant reading for others. I always appreciate it very > much when people apologize for this. > We have such a busy list and many members. It is always beneficial to just > keep to the Dhamma, and not go into personal matters, unless it is used as > an illustration of Dhamma in daily life and we can learn from such an > example. > Nina. 46859 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:31am Subject: Nothing Gets by you doesn't it? ksheri3 Hi Joop, Why certainly this is the center of the universe! Why wouldn't it be? Is your illusion of reality greater than my illusion of reality? If so, how, in what way, and why, is it greater? Is not this the trappings of one caught in the sticky tenticles of a spider's web where "attachment" here only allows them the suffering of not being able to grasp and possess freedom? Forever they are bound to the web and everything outside of the web is their rationale of freedom yet it is out of their grasp since letting go of the web implies they may fall to the ground ad bounce on some hard surface. The web at first confounds them that it has trapped them from freedom yet because of their dependencies and addictions they are willing servants of the spider's web. They have DOUBT, UNCERTAINTY, as well as an unwillingness to bend their hardened mind that lacks suppleness. Could this be what you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes? I am, indeed, in good company here! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" > wrote: > ... > > Hallo Colette, > > In one of your posts you called this 'Dhammastudygroup' esoteric: > that's not correct. DSG, that is Abhidhamma, is clear, public, > sometimes scholastic, but not esoteric. > > In another post you said 'HERE in Chicago'; that's a funny mistake, > for most reader is is 'THERE is Chicago'; perhaps in the one moment > you wrote this, you thought your place was the centre of the universe. > > The rest of all your messages I did not understand or did not read, > but I think I agree with it either. > > With metta > Joop 46860 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: Definition-help ksheri3 Hi Lisa, If I may Htoo Naing, didn't we encounter eachother on a Jhanas site? There, I enjoyed your "sutta's" you posted however the list went to a bad sensation where it was consumed by a rather self-absorbed individual and the owner as well as moderators were more than appreciative of the actions of this self-absorbed individual. At that point I decided they were best left to their own folly and if by chance our paths crossed they would explain their folly to me, if their explanation was realy worth any value. If I may answer this question Lisa has? See below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > > Dear Lisa, > > > > Simple definition is not too difficult. > You can just type in the search box of any > search engine and then go for Pali dictionary and choose > > one. Then you can look for the word you need to know. > > > > Sankhaarupekkhaa~naana/ Sankhaara + upekkhaa + ~naana > > > > But in real sense it is hard to understand unless you have meet > that > > knowledge or knowing that essence, which needs personal experience. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Thank you Htoo, > > I'm at work and on lunch break...googled the word as sankhara upekha > nana and found this: the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations' > (Sankhara-upekkha-nana). Plus I found a large amount of articles on > this 'indifference to formations.' Thanks again for the information > Htoo, colette: wow, that's a "heavy" definition you've struck out to find! Take indifference, upeekha, as an enormous sense-sphere to rationalize but then bring in "Name-Form", the Form-Sphere, etc. wow. And not to be deterred, no less, you bring in, you specify, Sankhara. Ouch, that's one heavy meal you got there to digest at one sitting huh? ;)) Now for the Q. > > Question: If I know this kind of indifference through personal > experience would it be important for anyone else to know? colette: does anyone else matter? Is there Bodhichitta? If "all is illusion" then aren't you an illusion? Why bodhichitta? I don't > say this with any negativity Please don't take the statement as > argument I am just curious. colette: curiosity kills the cat, oh Pa-Leazzze! ;), if you were to extingquish the flames of ignorance then wouldn't curiousity be a requisit? Nothing wrong with asking, those who choose wrong-view seek to possess right view and keep it from others therefore they would abuse your curiosity. I just question who else could really > know if 'I knew this state in a personal way' or would care to know > if I actually experienced this. colette: please my friend, VANQUISH DOUBT raise your psychic consciousness. This, what you speak of being ignorant of certainty, is akin to "sensory depravation" a practice in the arts of S & M/B & D (ritual torture) as well as the Martial Arts. You are blind from moha or ignorance yet you have other sense-sphere doors which can be accessed. I know this since in 1997 I was almost murdered in Chicago, while the first blow destroyed my right eye-socket completely and removed from the head, the bones constructing the face, I became aware of reality while they were beating my face into the steel light pole and screamed for help. Now this was because of the attack from the rear where I was blind however I became aware at a time during the attack, this was my enemies downfall since they were obsessed with my destruction and they were not satiated with the suffering of the first blow. Now, while in the emergency room waiting for hours for anything to be done my eyes swelled shut and at that moment I realized how accute my hearing had become, even my skin was alive with sensation. I repeat Vanquish Doubt! If I did know this state would it > help anyone else to know this state as well? colette: the more them merrier, no? But wouldn't that also help to releave suffering if you could just get another sentient being to be aware of this state? this conditioned consciousness? > > Are these questions silly and intrusive let me know and I won't ask > again. colette: I think they are GOOD QUESTIONS aimed toward dispelling of ignorance in consciousness raising. I hope I helped you on your path my dear. Alas, if it is others will to disagree and discredit me, alas, what can I do, it is just what others have and choose to force upon another. So be it if that is the case. At least I tried. toodles, colette 46861 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, A couple of comments: S: "I snipped the earlier part. My general comment is that I think it's very difficult to follow the Pali Tipitaka, especially the Abhidhamma, if we try to introduce other ideas, such as scientific ideas or even, dare-I-say-it,-Mayayana ideas, into the mix." L: Actually it's Nina's fault. She once said she didn't like to call a consciousness a 'subject'. I agree. I don't like it either. It makes consciousness seem like a do-er in the sense of a cogniz-er. Hence, my attempt to render citta process as dependent arising rather than as a subject/object encounter. If you guys insist on a subject/object dualism my argument has a lot less sparkle. S: "When we like the taste, ignorance is ignoring the truth that there is a perversion of perception at such a time and that the taste is not worth desiring in anyway, because in truth it's anicca and dukkha. The anagami has eradicated such desires for sense pleasures— he has no more perversion of this kind of perception and consciousness. While we continue to ignorantly find it desirable, the desire will continue to arise." L: Good example. This is another way that ignorance functions. My example was that ignorance experiences dhammas as an undifferentiated whole, while wisdom (pañña) experiences the details of the _seeming_ whole. I agree with you, "ignorance ignores the truth". What is desirable (inherently?) is not truly desirable (ultimately). Given that there are only two kinds of dhamma, concepts and realities, it makes sense to me to say that error is necessarily conceptual and what we actually desire is the error. We desire water when we see the light of a mirage. I will concede that in a subject/object formulation we could say the object of desire here is the reality of light misinterpreted as water. The important point is that all of our desires and aversions are desires and aversions toward mere concepts. Possibly more accurately, we could say desire doesn't desire anything, hate doesn't hate anything. Desire simply _is_ desire, a dhamma that arises due to an object condition. My idea that satipatthana can't figure out what desire desires comes from the idea that satipatthana only sees what arises ("the body in the body"). It requires speculative reasoning to guess what conditioned that arising. Most of the time we don't have the foggiest notion of what we want. Larry 46862 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: Definition-help kelvin_lwin Hi Lisa, Might try this link: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/vpsnana.htm the weird fonts are burmese. In general though highest mundane insight is equated with Sankharupekkha-nana. I'll be happy to point out how it correlates with the things Goenkaji frequently mentions. - kel 46863 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina, and Lodewijk (Attn.: Howard} -- Concerning "attention" and "intentional action" for achieving visuddhi in sila, samadhi and panna, please review the following passage from Milindapanha that might be helpful. King Milinda said: "What is the distinguishing mark of attention and what is the distinguishing mark of wisdom?" "Examination is the distinguishing mark of attention and cutting off is the distinguishing mark of wisdom." "How is this so? Make a simile." "Do you know about barley-reapers, sir?" "Yes, revered sir, I do." "How sire, do barley-reapers reap barley?" "Revered sir, grasping a handful of barley in the left hand and a sickle in the right, they cut it off with the sickle." "Even so, sire, does one who devoted to mental training take hold of the mind with attention and cut off the defilements with wisdom." "You are dexterous, revered Nagasena." [ Milindapanha (I,viii) ] Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina & Lodewijk - > > In a message dated 6/21/05 3:23:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, (snipped) > > op 21-06-2005 16:13 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ... I don't see > > direct answers to my questions in it, but a kind of stepping around them. My inference is that the real answer is: No, there is nothing to do except listen to the teachings and think about them, these being all that are required. > > (Surprisingly I missed any mention of attending to whatever arises in the present moment, but I guess the assumption is that there is nothing volitional to be done in that regard, it either happening or not "depending on conditions" - which, to me, in the absence of intentional actions, means depending on luck.) > ------ > Lodewijk: the answer is with Howard himself. What is real for himself. > You should not theorize too much. You have read, you have listened and you came to the Dhamma. It is a process in movement by which knowledge accumulates step by step. It grows. This has happened to you. Why should we torture ourselves with thoughts of 'how can I, what should I do.' > It is obvious that progress has been made, and slowly, slowly step by step a certain amount of understanding has developed. Look at the present moment and you will understand that you understand. > Listening is not the only condition, there are many more. Good friendship, a decent livelihood, the education by your parents, the intelligence you were born with. The Jewish wisdom that came with your upbringing.> > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I like the forgoing very much! As to conditions, I would add, > essentially, in my opinion, the practices advocated by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------- > > (snipped). > > I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional action to concentrate on nama and rupa. > > Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". If this were not so, then everyone who ever heard the Dhamma would make progress, just by virtue of being a "hearer". As to there being an idea of self, well, of course, for all worldlings there is the idea of self, and even for ariyans who have not gone all the way there is the sense of self. So what? That doesn't justify inaction. > ---------------------------------------- 46864 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:04pm Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma philofillet Hi Colette > > Ph: I am the least tolerant person here, probably. Let's see how > I > > handle this interesting outburst of internet-age conceptual > > proliferation. > > colette: that is so cute! ;)) I mean you take the posts and > conceptualize them into their own unique persective that you manifest > either by ignorance or volition, (snip) > What I refer to here is how he, you, Phil, have taken it as > an "outburst" when it is simply an interaction. No emotion at all. Ph: Actually I didn't mean "outburst" in the temper tantrum sense of the word, sorry for not being clearer. I meant it as like the outburst of flames from the mind. This is "papanca" (mental proliferation) which is beautifully laid out in the Honeyball Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 18) "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. the meeting of the three is contact. With contact as conditon there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions born of mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and presen forms congnizable through the eye. (repeat for the other doors.) Also I think of the Fire Sutta (SN 35:28) the world is burning with greed, hate and delusion through the 6 doors. Now, this is true for all of us - only the enlightened ones come to subdue this proliferation. And one's internet posting style may or may not be a reflection of the way their mind usually works. But as I'm sure you're aware your style is pretty proliferated. I tend to "babble" as I call it, or ramble, in posts quite often, so I can relate. I think it can be helpful for the person doing it, can uncover understanding that would otherwise remain locked up. A kind of verbal therapy, babble therapy. But for those reading, it's another matter. Most just won't bother. For example, me, I have very weak eyes that ache so I probably won't be reading your posts very often, just as I don't read other long posts. And be aware, Colette, that whenever we don't speak with kusala (wholesome) citta, we speak with unwholesome citta, and it accumulates. What stops us? I was curious yesterday when I started to write a long post in reply to yours, then stopped at the Sex Magyk. What stopped me? I think it *might* have been due to hiri (shame) and otappa (dread of the consequences of wrongdoing) which are mental factors (cetasikas) that accompany all wholesome states. Frankly, I think you are a bit shameless - you are well aware that your anti-semitic comments, for example, will cause bad feelings, but you plunge ahead merrily making them. So there is a kind of unwholesome proliferation going on, without awareness or concern about the unwholesome accumulation that goes on as well. I'm not saying this in a pejorative way, just reflecting out loud, because it goes on for *all* of us in a much less flamboyant and obvious way. Also, when you first came here, or in one of your posts, I noticed that you said something about hesitating to "take on" Sarah, so obviously you have a track record at other groups of debating/arguing with people. You also mentionned trouble with moderators at another group. So I picture you zooming around the internet in your Sex Magyk powered ship, enjoying conceptual battles. Isn't there any concern about the consequences of all that jazz? Does it bring you closer to stillness and peace, or just add to the way the world is burning through your eyes, ears, nose, tongue body sense and mind? (as it does for us all.) Colette, I'm trying ( obviously unsuccesfully) to wean myself off the internet so I can get busy with some writing projects, so I don't think I'll be able to write to you very often, but I encourage you to reflect on all that proliferation. May I suggest that you check out the audio discussion available in the "Files" section? In it Acharn Sujin, the teacher who provided the inspiration behind the formation of this group (well, of course the Buddha supplied the inspiration) talks about the ocean of concepts we all get caught up in, the way there is *always* ignorance after moments of seeing, moments of hearing. The awareness of our own ignorance, the way we are unable to stop the mind from proliferating, is the first step to peace, in my opinion. I think listening to that talk *might* be quite refreshing. By the way, I was sorry to hear about that beating/assault you experienced. I hope the physical and mental pain from it has subsided. We should all be gentle with each other and take care of each other. Metta, Phil p.s as I said, I'm trying to wean myself off the internet, so forgive me if I don't get back to you for awhile. 46865 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:21pm Subject: Re: MN117 with Tep (was: Outside the Dispensation for Dan...) buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for your patience in going through my long message about right view. I feel that it is a worn-out issue and we should stop at this point, if you don't disagree. Sarah: Btw, for your anapanasati thread, you might find it helpful to find the Pali passages in Tipitaka.org to check any Pali terms. Let me know if you need a link. It might be a bit fiddly to find your place in the first place, but after that it should be easy to bookmark it. Might I suggest, like Nina, a paragraph or two every other day with bits of Thai, pali and any of your comments, rather than the long extract once a week? Of course, it's just what is most convenient to you too. It's a lot of work. Tep: Please do not forget that only a few people (in a thousand, maybe) are fond of research and cross-referencing the way you do :-). "A lot of work" is unlike a lot of fun to 99% of people I have known . So please let me take a middle-path approach (that avoids both extremes)! Karuna, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, 46866 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:41pm Subject: Re: Definition-help foamflowers Dear Kel, Pefect fit---the puzzle gets closer to being finished, I will pass this on to a friend who is questioning this part of the path as well. Blessings to you.... With Metta, Lisa > Hi Lisa, > > Might try this link: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/vpsnana.htm > > the weird fonts are burmese. In general though highest mundane > insight is equated with Sankharupekkha-nana. I'll be happy to point > out how it correlates with the things Goenkaji frequently mentions. > > - kel 46867 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: equanimity about formations. foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Lisa and Htoo, > Nice you are back, Htoo. > May I just add something? > Sankhaarupekkhaa, equanimity about formations is a high degree of insight > knowledge. Through the development of paññaa there comes to be more and more > detachment from all conditioned dhammas and the inclination grows towards > the unconditioned dhamma, nibbaana. > Of course insight has to be developed stage by stage, and to begin with a > precise knowledge of nama and rupa must be developed, otherwise there could > not be detachment from them. > As Htoo says, anything in other at all.> No, nor in ourselves. Paññaa develops step by > step. But knowing about this stage is useful, it teaches us that paññaa > leads to detachment. > Nina. > Thank you for the feedback Nina it has been very helpfu and so has your scholarship and that one drop of wisdom at time over many life times I think you must have had several thundershowers to arrive at an almost full bucket of wisdom. I not this in jest by the way...(words can be so easily projected on). What is empty of self has no self control right? With metta, Lisa 46868 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 0:18am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives the following definition of moha: * “Delusion” has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function of covering the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed to right practice(4) or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention; and should be regarded as the root of all immoralities." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 163) gives a similar definition. Moha is not the same as lack of worldly knowledge such as science or history, but it is ignorance of ultimate realities. There are many degrees of moha. Moha does not know the true nature of the object which is experienced and therefore its essence is, as stated by the Atthasåliní, non-penetration and its function “covering up” the intrinsic nature of the object. Moha does not know nåma and rúpa as impermanent, dukkha and non-self, anattå. Moha is the root of all that is unwholesome. Every akusala citta is rooted in moha; not only the two types of moha-múla-citta, but also the types of lobha-múla-citta and dosa-múla-citta have moha as root. *** 4) In Påli: patipatti. The English text translates here as: right conduct. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46869 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:00am Subject: Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra jwromeijn Hallo all, Some days ago we had a discussion about the Heart Sutra. One of the problems Theravadins have with it (my interpretation) is that the Heart Sutra seems to deny the paramattha-character of the dhammas: "Form is emptiness etc" I rember a discussion on DSG about emptiness half a year ago; it was explained to me, in Theravada emptiness is anatta, and also anica. So I thought: the gap between Theravada and Mahayana about the idea 'emptiness' is difficult to bridge. Till … Reading again the list of cittas in Abhidhamma, and with the cittas belonging to the immaterial sphere jhanas I found "The base of nothingness (akincannayatana)" Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in CMA about it: "The third immaterial attainment has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded aspect of the consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving attention to the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking as its object the concept of non-existence or nothingness (natthibhava- pannatti) in respect of the first immaterial consciousness." (p. 63) In different ways in have tried to find more about that "concept of non-existence or nothingness" because to me it sounds like nearly the same as the sunyatta-concept in the Heart Sutra and Madhyamaka; but in vain. That's really a pitty and a little bit strange that the texts are so quiet about this concept of non-existence or nothingness. I found some text about the absorption itself but not about the object leading to it. So I had to be careful, but my theory (and no more) is that the monks who composed the Heart Sutra did that, after abiding in the third immaterial jhana, describing the object of their absorption. Will this be a possibility? Metta Joop 46870 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear Charles, Sarah and all, Apology for not trimming. I re-include the old messages for reference. When I read the following 'untrimmed message' I thought that 'I have to say two things'. 1. Event 2. 5 aggregates and DO 1. Event Dear Charles, I do not think 'tree' 'rose' 'a day at work' 'Htoo' 'Sara' 'Charlses' and endless infinite names and 'names of ideas' are events. 'Htoo' never arises and 'Htoo' never falls away. 'Charles' never arises and 'Charles' never falls away. 'Sarah' never arises and never falls away. 'Tree' never arises and never falls away. Likewise 'nama' never arises and 'nama' never falls away. 'Ruupa' never arises and 'ruupa' never falls away. 'What arise and fall away' or 'what that are happening' or 'what happen' are nama and rupa. Even the word 'nama' or 'rupa' cannot arise or fall away. Because 'nama' or 'ruupa' are pannatti. 2. 5 aggregates and DO. I, puthujana, am a combination of 5 upadaanakkhandhas or 5 clinging aggregates. So the cycle is rotating and running. Arahats, who have extinguished all the fire of kilesa without any remanants, are also aggregate of 5 khandhas. --> 1.avijja (-) --> 2. sankhaara (-) Here 2 links of DO have been already destroyed. Arahats do not do any sankhaara of 1. punnaabhisankhara 2. apunnabhisankhaara 3. anenjaabhisankhaara ... 3. vinnaana --> 4. naama-ruupa 5. salaayatana --> 6. phassa or contact --> 7. vedana or feeling --> 8. tanha (-) Here another link is destroyed. 8. tanha (-) --> 9. upadaana or clinging (-) Another link is destroyed. Upadaana is firm-attachment. 9. upadaana --> 10. bhavo or existence (-) Here the destruction of this link is 'future link'. It is not current life or current bhava or current existence. Likewise, 10. bhava (-) --> 11. jaati or rebirth (-) --> 12. jaraa/marana (all other unpredictable components of a life such as 1. byaadhi or disease 2. soka or sorrow (great anxiety) 3. parideva or lamentation (expressive great sorrow by crying etc) 4. dukkha or pain (physical pain or dukkha-dukkha) 5. domanassa or mental pain (unpleasantness in the mind_include hatred anger, fury, jealousy, stinginess, worry, hostility etc etc) 6. upayasaa or despair (hopelessness and great inactivity of not taking food, not drinking even water and may even not breathe in leading to death) This is fure destruction related to future jati and future bhava. If DO in arahats is reviewed from current life then 1. avijja (+) in their past lives and so it created --> 2. sankhaara These sankharas were in their past lives. Because of those sankhara they had to be reborn in their current life (patisandhi-vinnaana) 2. sankhaara (+) --> 3. vinnaana (+) --> 4. naama-ruupa Naama-ruupa here are patisandhi-naama-ruupa. But DO in arahats can be viewed directly at 4. naama-ruupa and this will be discussed later. 4. naama-ruupa(+) --> 5. salaayatana or 6 sense-base --> 6. phassa or contact --> 7. vedana or feeling (+) --> 8. tanha (-) Here the link is destroyed. I am thinking how DO is rotating in arahats. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I have always liked that name (I wonder way -- I have no close friends or family with that name, yet it has an interesting appeal). > > This attachment to your name is an event (this makes "you" and "me" unimportant), your name is an event, the tree, the rock, the day at work, jealousy, love, etc. are all events too (something that happens). > > When I first learned of the "no"-selves concept, I was taught to view every thing as events that arise, ... instead of selves that ... > > However events are fuel for other events. In this sense, even Arhats can be the cause or effect of events. > > CharlesD > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sarah abbott > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, 08 June, 2005 09:37 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? > > > Hi Charles, > > You wrote several posts addressed to Htoo, but he said he won't have > internet access for several months, so you may wish to make a note of your > posts and re-send them on his return. > > Let me just comment on a note in this one which was also addressed to me: > > --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi Sarah & Htoo > > > > Sarah, When Htoo stated: > > > > "What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment > > events." > > > > You replied with: > > > > "At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > > (ignorance)?" and "When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or > > akusala?" > > > > Htoo then replied with: > > > > "That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of > > ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage > > of the whole circle temporarily." > > AND > > "It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaagacchaamii'ti > > pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa > > and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and > > this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of > > satipatthaana." > > AND > > "Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected." > > > > I have to ask and state: > > > > What is Satipatthaana? > .... > S: The path which leads to the eradication of ignorance through awareness > and understanding of realities. > .... > > And, I am guessing at what you two are getting at so forgive me if I am > > off base: > > > > Htoo, even though there is no self or no ignorance, there are still > > events. As long as any of the five aggregates exist the cycle of DO > > continues. Even events are born, decay, cease, and are reincarnated > > (give rise to other events). > ... > S: Yes I think I agree (though I'm not sure about the use of 'events'), no > new fuel, however. Also, when ignorance is completely eradicated, no > further rebirth at all. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > 46871 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing Dear Sarah and Nina, Again I do not snip the old message because it is nearly a month old. I read all what you wrote. Nina felt happy with your message. But my belief is that whatever sukkhavipassaka or jhaanalaabhi not using jhaana as the base for insight or jhaanalaabhi using jhaana as the base for insight.. at magga kaala all 8 path factors do arise. This is my belief. 1. sukkhavipassaka matter is clear that there are all 8 path-factors. 2. jhaanalaabhi who did not use jhaana as the base for insight also had all 8 path factors. Again this is no doubt. 3. jhaanalaabhi, who used jhaana as the base for insight when in jhaana say 5th jhaana or aruupa jhaana there was no vitakka. So there is no jhaana-vitakka. He would be basing jhaana. But at exit when he does retrospection (paccavakkhana naana) there DID arise vitakka. Without vitakka retrospection can never be done. JJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJ...BBBB At unspecified time jhana citta stops to arise and instead there arises B or bhavanga citta (tihetuka bhavanga citta). BBBBMJvJvJvJvJvJvJvDDBBBBB Jv is javana citta. This is not just a single series. There arise further many 'MJv..DD' series. This is retrospection making assessment on dhamma that this dhamma is anicca, this dhamma is also anicca, that dhamma is also anicca etc etc. This cannot be done without vitakka or initial application. At unspecified time after a few paccavakkhana or retrospection there arise BBBMPUAGMPPPBBBBB This is magga vithi vara. Manodvaravajjana does have vitakka. P is parikamma (vutthaana-gaaminii vipassanaa naana) and it is also with vitakka. U is upacaara mahakusala citta (vutthaana-gaaminii vipassanaa naana). It is also with vitakka. A is anuloma. Loma means 'hair'. Anu means 'detail' or 'along'. Anuloma means 'along the hair' or straigh-forwarding. Anuloma mahakusala citta is 'an adapting citta'. It adapts foregoing cittas and next arising gotrabhu citta. It is also with vitakka. G is gotrabhu mahakusala citta and it is a lineage-chaning citta and it is followed by magga citta. Gotrabhu is also with vitakka. If you do not well understand these please check these in the existing texts. While all foregoing javana cittas have vitakka why magga citta not have vitakka? There is no jhaana-vitakka at that time. Yes. But there does arise magga-vitakka which is samma-sankappa. That is why The Buddha preached to first 5 disciples that there are 8 path factors. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo & Nina, > > I hope you both read this on your return too! > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Nina wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo, > > I agree that we should consider vitakka as jhanafactor or as Path > > factor. What you say is reasonable, but I would like to see more > > texts. > ... > S: I have a passage I'd marked (and forgotten about)in 'Dispeller' > (Sammohavinodanii) which clearly confirms Nina's explanation of the Vsim > Tiika comments with regard to lokuttara cittas arising without > sammaasankappa when 2nd-5th jhanas are used as basis: > > Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: > > "This is the distinction according to determining by the jhaana which is > the basis [for insight]. According to determining by the jhaana which is > the basis [for insight], firstly in an obtainer of the first jhaana who is > employing insight after emerging from the first jhaana, the path which > arises is of the first jhaana. But here the path factors and the > enlightenment factors are complete. > > "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the second > jhaana is of the second jhaana. Here the path factors are seven.* > > "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the third > jhaana is of the third jhaana; but here the path factors are seven and the > enlightenment factors six.** > > "So also from one emerging from the fourth jhaana up to one emerging from > the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception." > > footnotes: > *"Owing to absence of sa"nkappa,since vitakka is absent in the second > jhaana." > **"Through absence of piiti in the third jhaana." > ..... > > S: Besides this interesting point about when the Noble Eightfold Path > becomes a Noble Sevenfold Path in effect, I think these passages from the > commentaries make it very clear that jhaanas of differnt levels are not > always the basis for enlightenment as many suggest. Indeed the Vism > passage I quoted the other day (XX1, 112) clearly differentiated between > a) the path arisen in a sukkha-vipassaka (dry-insight worker), b) that > arisen in 'one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made jhana > the basis for insight', and c)'the path made to arise by comprehending > unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight' > and so on. > > Following on from that passage, the text(113) also refers to the seven > path factors when 'paths are made to arise using the second, third, and > fourth jhanas in the fivefold reckoning as the basis for insight'. It > stresses that whether there then be four, three or two jhana factors, 'in > each case, however, the path factors number seven...' > > I hope this helps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= 46872 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing Dear Sarah, This is done. I agree. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > last one in this batch: > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > S: A characteristic (lakkhana) of reality. Not a concept. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ======== > > -------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > So you think it is like you explained in Citta A-Citta B business. > ... > S: No, this is a different question....Anatta is the nature or > characteristic of all dhammas regardless of which process they arise or > don't arise in etc. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 46873 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (428) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is talking on citta, cetasikas, their mixtures and interaction, functions, realms, kamma etc etc. It will soon be continued. With Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Bodhisatta first met Alara Kalama when he searched for Dhamma. He > asked what Alara taught and Alara welcome Him and invited Him. > Bodhisatta tasted what it was that Alara knew. Not very soon, > Bodhisatta attained all that Alara had long practised and attained. 46874 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo htootintnaing Dear Phil and Tep, I was smiling while I read both of your messages here. Phil does have a good intention to mention two-sided sword. When ditthi is ramified how can one proceed on satipatthaana even though he may be doing sitting meditation or walking meditation or any form of meditation. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Phil - > > Don't feel sorry about nit-picking a friendly greeting, or even to criticize > my meditation practice! I can clearly see your good intention, and that's > all that matters. > > You said it well, but .. : > > Phil : ... when there is kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. We > have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that we get in > calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy world. This may be > why meditation can be a hindrance rather than helpful for beginners > who don't know that they are just developing a dependency for peace > and quiet.. > > Tep: It is true that calm may arise because of other conditions > (paccaya) besides seclusion like reflecting on giving (dana) and > virtues(sila). But to say that meditation is a two-sided sword for a naive > beginner is like saying that eating good foods can cause obesity in > ignorant and lazy people. > > > Karuna, > > > Tep > > ======= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep > > > > > > > It is great to "be away" some time. Lately, you were "running" > > like those > > > non-stop washing machines at the shopping mall near my house. I > > > hope you'll come back with more peace of mind. > > > > > > Sorry to analyze such a friendly greeting, but... > > > > ...I would point out that peace of mind is something that we can > > find at anytime, in any situation, if there is awareness of the > > reality that is arising at the time. (Big if!) I have learned that > > there is calm with every kusala citta, though I couldn't tell you > > right now what paramattha dhamma that "calm" is. So when there is > > kusala citta aware of akusala, there is calm. > > > > We have a tendency to think that peace of mind is something that > > we get in calm seclusion, then bring it out/back into the busy > > world. This may be why meditation can be a hindrance rather than > > helpful for beginners who don't know that they are just developing a > > dependency for peace and quiet...(not that that is the case for you.) > > > > Again, sorry for being picky about a friendly greeting! > > > > Metta, > > > > Phil 46875 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:21am Subject: Re: 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] htootintnaing Dear Dan, Thanks. You made clear the matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly fond of the > statement: "'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparamasa." The > determination of whether an "action" is silabbataparamasa or > kusala/akusala, right effort/wrong effort, etc. is not in the thing > itself, but in the state of mind accompanying the doing. "Formal > sitting" is not silabbataparamasa, nor is it kusala, nor is it akusala, > nor is it right effort, nor is it wrong effort. Critical to the > determination is to know clearly which particular moment(s) you are > referring to. > > You also write: "When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. > When one develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala." That's right, > but your statement is quite different from saying "When one sits in > formal meditation, one develops vipassana bhavanaa (or samatha)." > > Dan > > P.S. Have a great few months away from dsg. > > > When one develops samatha bhavana he is doing kusala. When one > > develops vipassana bhavanaa he is doing kusala. > > > > Someone who is 'doing' something that is not daana or siila or > > bhaavana then his 'doing' is not kusala. > > > > You and DSGs may like this statement; > > > > 'Doing' or 'formal sitting' is silabbataparaamaasa. > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > PS: I will be off for a few months. 46876 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Mudita: Rejoicing Bliss ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Unselfish Joy: How to rejoice in others Success: By seeing that: If only happy at one's own success, such joy is rare & limited! If happy also at other's success, the joy is frequent & infinite! By observing that: It starts with basic sympathy, develops & grows into approval & appreciation, culminates in rejoicing mutual joy by directing to, initiating, frequent cultivation & boundless expansion.. By knowing that: Mutual Joy is the cause of satisfied contentment! Mutual Joy eliminates all acidic jealousy and envy! Mutual Joy is an infinite, divine and sublime state! Buddha: If it were impossible to cultivate this Good, I would not tell you to do so! Buddhaghosa: See this good being is happy! How fine! How excellent! Thus: Let there be Happiness! Let there be Freedom! Thus: Let there be Peace! Let there be Bliss! Thus: Let there be Understanding of this... : - ] Mudita: The Buddha's Teaching on Unselfish Joy: BPS Wheel Publication No. 170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel170.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46877 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread (429) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. According to their function there are four kamma. According to the seniority of the kamma that is going to give rise to the effect there are four kamma. According to the timing of their effect or when they give rise the effect there are four kamma. Lastly there are four kind of kamma that are grouped according to the realm where it will give rise as its effect as rebirth. These four kamma are 1. akusala kamma ( all are kaama kamma or kaama related kamma) 2. kaama kusala kamma ( all are kaama or kaama related kamma ) 3. ruupa kusala kamma ( all are ruupa related kamma ) 4. aruupa kusala kamma ( all are aruupa related kamma) Akusala kamma are three according to the door of kamma or kamma-dvaara. They are kaaya akusala kamma, vaci akusala kamma, and mano akusala kamma. Likewise there are 3 kaama kusala kamma and they are kaaya kusala kamma, vaci kusala kamma, and mano kusala kamma. But all ruupa kusala kamma and aruupa kasala kamma are mano kusala kamma. They all arise at mano dvara or happen at mind. As soon as ruupa jhaana or aruupa jhaana arise as kusala there have already arisen ruupa kusala or aruupa kusala. While kaama kusala kamma can just give rise to rebirth at human realm and 6 kaama deva realms these kaama kusala kamma cannot give rise to ruupa rebirth or aruupa rebirth. By the same token when ruupa kusala or aruupa kusala are committed these kamma are to give rise to ruupa rebirth or aruupa rebirth and also for ruupavipaka citta and aruupavipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46878 From: "frank" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:05am Subject: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) dhamma_service Checking my pali dictionary, it mentions avijja and moha as synonymous. The avijja in the 12 dependent origination links seems to resemble the visuddhimagga definition below for moha, whereas the first definition of moha from athasalini seems to have a more general application of ignorance, ignorance with regard to immorality and ignorance of even worldly knowledges. So the questions arise: 1) did moha have a more general meaning of ignorance before Buddhism appropriated the term? 2) which definition of moha below is correct? Is the visuddhimagga saying that only when moha is used in the context of the 3 root defilements does it have the narrow definition, and perhaps in other places in the pali canon it has a broader definition of athasalini? 3) if avijja and moha are indeed synonyms, then why isn't just one term used consistently throughout the canon? Why is the dependent origination formula not listing moha at #1? With your permission, I'd like to forward this question to the pali list if I don't get satisfactory answers here. -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:18 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives the following definition of moha: * “Delusion” has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function of covering the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed to right practice(4) or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention; and should be regarded as the root of all immoralities." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 163) gives a similar definition. Moha is not the same as lack of worldly knowledge such as science or history, but it is ignorance of ultimate realities. There are many degrees of moha. Moha does not know the true nature of the object which is experienced and therefore its essence is, as stated by the Atthasåliní, non-penetration and its function “covering up” the intrinsic nature of the object. Moha does not know nåma and rúpa as impermanent, dukkha and non-self, anattå. Moha is the root of all that is unwholesome. Every akusala citta is rooted in moha; not only the two types of moha-múla-citta, but also the types of lobha-múla-citta and dosa-múla-citta have moha as root. *** 4) In Påli: patipatti. The English text translates here as: right conduct. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46879 From: nina Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 167 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 167. Sloth and Torpor. Intro: Sloth (thina) and torpor (middha) are two akusala cetasikas that always arise together. They can only arise with the akusala cittas that are prompted, but they do not arise every time the citta is prompted. They are among the inconstant (aniyata) cetasikas. As we have seen, a citta that is prompted, sasankhaarika, is not keen and active (Vis. Ch XIV, 91). ---------- Text Vis.167: Herein, (xliii) stiffening (thinanataa) is stiffness (thina); making torpid (middhanataa) is torpor (middha). The meaning is, paralysis due to lack of urgency, and loss of vigour. The compound thinamiddha (stiffness-and-torpor) should be resolved into thina~n ca middha~n ca. [N: ca means: and] N: The Tiika explains that second type of akusala citta that is rooted in attachment is different from the first type by the inconstant presence of sloth and torpor. The Tiika also explains that there is with this type of citta no conceit which is also among the inconstant cetasikas. When there is di.t.thi, there is no conceit. Thus here, if sloth and torpor arise with the second type of akusala citta they do so together with wrong view. The Tiika explains that sloth has lack of energy and that it does not give driving power, and hence the citta associated with it is rigid. The Tiika explains that torpor is unwieldiness. It states: since by it the associated dhammas are made torpid because of its destruction of power, therefore it is said Œmaking torpid, torpor¹. Thus, middha also conditions the associated dhammas to have torpor, to be unwieldy. As we have seen, each sobhana citta needs wieldiness in order to be able to perform kusala. Torpor is the opposite of wieldiness, it has no adaptability and skill for kusala. ----------- Text. Vis.: Herein, 'stiffness' [thina] has the characteristic of lack of driving power. Its function is to remove energy. It is manifested as subsiding. N: The Tiika explains that it is the opposite of energy. It states that it manifests itself in the subsiding of the accompanying dhammas. Thus we see that it conditions the accompanying dhammas in making all of them subside or sink down. -------- Text Vis.: 'Torpor' [middha] has the characteristic of unwieldiness. ------ N: The Tiika explains that also sloth has the nature of unwieldiness, but that it is unwieldiness of citta, whereas torpor is unwieldiness of the other naama-khandhas, thus, of the accompanying cetasikas. The Tiika refers to the Dhammasangani (§ 1156 and §1157): ³What is sloth (thina)? That which is indisposition, unwieldiness of citta. What is torpor (middha)? That which is indisposition and unwieldiness of the mental body (cetasikas).² -------- Text Vis.: Its function is to smother. ---------- N: The Tiika explains smothering (onahana) as enveloping, covering the door of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nadvaara). We read a further explanation of this in the Expositor (II, p. 485): < ¹Shrouding¹ means it covers up the mental aggregate as the cloud covers up the sky. ŒEnveloping¹ is covering all around.> --------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as laziness, or it is manifested as nodding and sleep. -------- N: The Tiika exlains laziness (liinataa) as a shrinking back in taking an object. When there is laziness and sleepiness, there cannot be clear thinking. As regards nodding and sleep, there is the following explanation: Note 68 (taken from the Tiika): 'Because the paralysis (sa.mhanana) of consciousness comes about through stiffness, but that of matter through torpor like that of the three aggregates beginning with feeling, therefore torpor is manifested as nodding and sleep' (Pm.493). N: Torpor conditions paralysis of the mental body, of cetasikas, but also of the physical body, of ruupa (ruupakaayyassaapi), according to the Tiika. ------------ Text Vis.: The proximate cause of both is unwise attention to boredom, sloth, and so on. ----------- Tiika: Boredom with regard to secluded dwellings and dislike of higher kusala dhammas. N: When there are sloth and torpor a monk is lazy and does not take an interest in leading a secluded life and applying himself to mental development. N: The Tiika explains drowsiness as the occurrence of defilement that is the cause of inchastity. ****** Conclusion. Sloth and torpor destroy the capacity to act in a wholesome way, they are paralyzing. When there are sloth and torpor there is mental sickness, there is no energy for kusala. One is unable to apply oneself to daana, siila or bhaavana. One has no urgency to study the Dhamma or to listen to the Dhamma, to develop understanding. There are bound to be many moments of sloth and torpor, also when we do not feel lazy or sleepy. The pair of sloth and torpor are among the five hindrances. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 490): ³Bhikkhus, the hindrance of sloth and torpor brings about darkness, blindness of vision, lack of knowledfge, cessation of insight, having its part in adversity, not leading to nibbaana² (M.N. I, 115). When we see the benefit of the development of right understanding, it can condition a sense of urgency, and then we can wake up from sleepiness and listlessness. There can be right attention instead of unwise attention which is the cause of sloth and torpor and all kinds of defilements. Only the arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor. ******** Nina. 46880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: equanimity about formations. nilovg Hi Lisa, op 22-06-2005 06:30 schreef Lisa op mukhaeco@...: > an almost full bucket of wisdom. I not this in jest > by the way...(words can be so easily projected on). > > What is empty of self has no self control right? N: We learn that all dhammas are aanatta and how could there be a self which controls? However, there is only a drop in my bucket, so I can reproduce what I learnt from texts and from listening, but the realization? It is still far away. But pariyatti conditions patipatti very gradually and then once there can be pativedha. Nina. 46881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) nilovg Hi frank, Both moha and avijjaa have many degrees. Moha is usually used in the context of the akusala hetus. Avijjaa in the context of the D.O. It is as in the case of paññaa, there are many different synonyms of it: amoha as root. ñaa.na, vicaya, sammaadi.t.thi, and many more. Evenso citta: mano, viññaa.na, etc. Nina. op 22-06-2005 19:05 schreef frank op frank@...: > Checking my pali dictionary, it mentions avijja and moha as synonymous. 46882 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 6/21/05 8:44:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: King Milinda said: "What is the distinguishing mark of attention and what is the distinguishing mark of wisdom?" "Examination is the distinguishing mark of attention and cutting off is the distinguishing mark of wisdom." "How is this so? Make a simile." "Do you know about barley-reapers, sir?" "Yes, revered sir, I do." "How sire, do barley-reapers reap barley?" "Revered sir, grasping a handful of barley in the left hand and a sickle in the right, they cut it off with the sickle." "Even so, sire, does one who devoted to mental training take hold of the mind with attention and cut off the defilements with wisdom." "You are dexterous, revered Nagasena." [ Milindapanha (I,viii) ] ========================== You know, I wonder, as an aside, whether this section of the Milindapanha might not be a primary source for the Mahayana notion of the "sword of wisdom". The personification of wisdom in Mahayana, the archetypal Bodhisattva Manjusri, is always envisioned wielding the sword of wisdom. I happen to think that everything "good" in Mahayana has its basis in the original teachings. (I guess the Milindapanha is actually post-canonical, though.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46883 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi Phil, > colette: there are regretable things done in everyone's life yet > through meditation we can recognize why (I know the pali phrase I'm > looking for in the Abhidhamma yet don't have the time to find it, > possibly tomorrow) colette: Good Morning Group, well, tomorrow has turned into today and again I find myself forced into the here & now, as I'm sure all of us are feeling. Alas, tomorrow is like the spider's web and we can never grasp it can we? For some odd reason it's always today or tonight I can never seem to get to tomorrow. Luckily however Yesterday never seems to have the speed to catch up to me, or is it like While E. Coyote chasing the Road Runner (of Warner Bros. cartoon fame). "In the Suttas we often come across such phrases as 'ko hetu, ko paccayo' - 'what cause, what reason'. In the Abhidhamma both hetu and paccaya are differentiated and are used in specific senses. The term hetu is applied to the six roots explained above. Paccaya is an aiding condition (upakaraka dhamma). Like the root of a tree is hetu. Paccaya is like water, manure, etc." these/those events/actions occured such as harsh > speech and by taking the "high road", the educated road, we can > rationalize the events which took place and recognize them as > illusion not as something we are to be sorry for doing or saying > since it was done or said. Such psychology is found in the "kabalion" > of hermeticism. I also had some interesting meditations this morning first reading "nama-rupa...., 9. Salayatana...." as well as the introduction to the e-book of the Abhidhamma I'm reading. This got me to thinkin', you may call me Jethro Bodine at this point in time stuck b-twixed bein' a double knot spy and a brain surgeon. ;)) I continually do "self-analysis" and have done it since I got to New Orleans in 1983. The perplexing questions of "why am I here" etc., are all directed outward. In the process of self-analysis we turn the microscope inward and in this case then why does it matter if we try to manifest a falsehood? Who would care? We are not deluding ourselves if our analysis is without the illusions manifested by others. <....> As I stood each morning while I worked as an admin. assistant for a software developer, standing outside the building every morning after I had opened the office and turned on all the computers to warm up, I'd have a cigarette and I could watch people, observe the reality. People are very angry, at least in Chicago. They are on their way to gainful employment, their function that they freely chose, and they are angry. Oh, I try to always greet people with a good morning, to me I cannot think to start my day off meeting people without wishing them the "good" than the bad since, in Chicago, they can only give me the bad. Bhikku means "begger" I am worse than a beggar since I am so tired of asking for jobs, asking for friendship, asking..., since all that is returned to me is the negative while those who I ask take only the positive from my potentiality. Is it wrong to see ourselves as we are caught up in the delusion of reality, home ownership, plastic money, etc.? I rock foundations, I'm very well versed in the demolition of masonry -- it drives them out of their minds to have a female persona lecturing them as to their nature and the web they have subscribed to fashion their reality. What could be more enjoyable than to know that they refuse to accept responsibility, the causation of an effect, and will only live by reason of rationalizing why they were forced to do something or other, yet know how ineffectual their empty falsehoods really are? As Phil said, he tends to rant, on other sites I have never denied my blatant obsession with ranting but this also is a jhanas factor for myself since I've removed all material from my bed and the only manuscript in my bed next to me is the Abhidhamma-Sangaha which I read and re-read and... toodles, colette 46884 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:59pm Subject: Duality foamflowers I have did a bit of study just on some of the words related to duality and non duality....I am digging a bit deeper and I shall see what I come up with. I did a search on messages for dvaya but I am of searched incorrectly. I've never tried to search a groups messages before. Here is my list: 46885 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:42am Subject: A Nice Phrase upasaka_howard Hi, all - I came across a phrase in a book that is marvelously descriptive of our grasping after sensual pleasures: "Licking honey from a razor's edge". It's just perfect, isn't it" :-) With metta (sweet, but not cutting), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46886 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for asking the question. > I believe, based on my understanding of what the Buddha taught, that > all khandhas, ayatanas and dhatus are empty of ownership and they > lead to suffering (dukkha) if one clings to them as 'me, mine, my self'. In > other words, all dhammas are anatta. This is the real meaning of anatta > that does not contradict with the practice of loving kindness and kusala > accumulation for the purpose of setting oneself free from sufferings in > the long run. > > > What do you say, Herman? > Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that no thing is knowable as itself (there is no essence). All things are a convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, or knowable as themselves. Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. Kind Regards Herman 46887 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra lbidd2 Hi Joop, I think the emptiness of the Heart Sutra is different from nothingness. The emptiness of the Heart Sutra has to do with the ungraspable nature of dhammas. It is a characteristic of dhammas rather than an absence of dhammas. See the Phena Sutta (SN.XXII,95) for something very similar: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095-tb0.html Seeing directly that dhammas are ungraspable, the upadana (grasping) link in Dependent Arising doesn't arise. Most of the Madhyamika commentaries explain this ungraspable nature as being due to relationality. A relationship is empty of a center ('heart' or self-nature). There is no bicycle-ness of a bicycle, for example. In the suttas the Buddha makes similar arguments but, more often, ascribes ungraspability to impermanence. A madhyamika would say impermanence is a relationship. Larry 46888 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:13pm Subject: ... HEY! Lisa ... Re: Duality christine_fo... Yahhey! Whoa! Get a rope on that li'l critter! Hey Lisa! I think one of your baby scribbles escaped from the Drafts fold before the release time .... :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > I have did a bit of study just on some of the words related to duality and non > duality....I am digging a bit deeper and I shall see what I come up with. I did a > search on messages for dvaya but I am of searched incorrectly. I've never > tried to search a groups messages before. Here is my list: 46889 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:52pm Subject: Re: Duality foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > I have did a bit of study just on some of the words related to duality and non > duality....I am digging a bit deeper and I shall see what I come up with. I did >a search on messages for dvaya but I am of searched incorrectly. I've never > tried to search a groups messages before. Here is my list: I had to run off to my second job this evening. I am helping a friend start his first restaurant and I host twice a week during dinner rush. The place is doing well and he will start his second one this coming year! I ran off thinking I had posted my list on duality. Pretty cool seeing no thing there when I checked in on the posts that were sent to my email account....lol...I posted the information but for some reason it wouldn't post as text. So I will have to hand type it out again because I don't know what's wrong with my conversion program....darn it! Sorry for the weird posts lately either I'm very tired or I'm in a rush, maybe I should take my time posting. with Metta, Lisa With Metta, Lisa 46890 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:31pm Subject: ... HEY! Lisa ... Re: Duality foamflowers Well, finally I found those darn pesky notes again....fingers crossed conversion program works...lol...rtf dual/ubho (both, German: beide); ubhantam = both ends, both sides (Sutta nipata 1042) duality/dvaya; (a) two-fold (Sutta nipata 886) (saccam mus_ ti dvayadhammam); Dhammapada 384. dvaya; (b) false, deceitful (Vinaya 3.21) -- neuter: a duality, a pair, couple. (SN 2.17)/vi- : as connotation of duality or separation; viz., vinnana (consciousness of object-subject relationship; i.e. namo and rupa, is a duality) extreme/anta: "taking extreme sides, i. e. extremist", or "wrong, opposite (= antya, see anta2)" (thus Kern, Toevoegselen schrift V). (Vinaya1.172; DN 3.45, 48 (ananta); SN 1.154; AN 1.154; AN 2.240; AN 3.130) ayam: It refers to what immediately follows either in time or in thought or in connection: 'dve ime ant_' = "these are the two extremes, viz."Vinaya 1.10; 'ayam eva ariyo maggo' = "this then is the way" ibid.; compare with: Jataka 1.280. extremes/Anumajjha: mediocre, without going to extremes. (Jataka 4.192; Jataka 5.387)of two dvi; dukhan.a: moment as coincidence of two events: "at the same moment," especially in the phrase 'tam khan.am yeva', meaning "all at once," simultaneously, with which is synonymous: t.h_naso (Jataka 1.167, 253; Jataka 3.276); compare to 'Moment' (the non-temporal kind; not-in-time) Sampah_ra: [sam+pah_ra]: clashing, beating together, impact, striking; battle, strife. Ref.: DN 2.166; Pug 66 sq.; DA 1.150; Milinda panha 161 (_miavega°), 179 (of two rocks), 224. contrast(s)anta/antara: Further development of meaning is with a view of contrasting the (two) sides of the inside relation, i. e. having a 'space between', different from. pair(s)dvaya; (b) false, deceitful (Vinaya 3.21) -- neuter: a duality, a pair, couple. (SN 2.17) eka + agga/In itself already is non-duality; meaning tranquil, calm. (SN 4.125; AN 1.70, AN 1.266; AN 2.14, AN 2.29; AN 3.175 (ekacitta), AN 3.391;Sutta nipata 341; Jataka 1.88) eka + aggataa/Concentration / unification / union; contemplation, tranquillity of mind. (SN 5.21, SN 5.197, SN 5.269 (cittassa); AN 1.36; AN 4.40) eka + aayana/Leading to one goal, direct way or 'leading to the goal as the one & only way (magga)'. (MN 1.63; SN 5.167, SN 5.185) middle way/majjhima patipada middle/majjhima; majjha; inda (middle of the month) Majjhe (in the middle); in the special dogmatic sense "in the present state of existence," contrasted with past & future existences (the latter combd as "ubho ant_" at Sutta Nipata 1040). Majjhatta (adj.) 1. "standing in the middle," umpire, neutral,impartial,indifferent. (Jataka 1.300; Jataka 2.359 (paramamajjhatta, + upekkhaparama); Jataka 6.8; Milinda panha 403; Visuddhimagga 230; Mahavamsa 21, 14.) Majjhatta (adj.) 2. Indifference, balance of mind, equanimity; almost synonymous with upekkha. (Vism 134, 296) A similar term is found in a Buddhist Sanskrit text as: mr.duamadhya ks.anti; translated: "state of spiritual calm" (Divyavadana 271) midst antara, abbhantare midst of village majjhe gaama (Jataka 1.199; Jataka 6.332)midway antaraa Vipañcita: knowing diffuseness or detail, or: of unillusioned understanding, clear-minded, unprejudiced ==> vipañcana (resting clearly on Sanskrit term papañca = expansion) means "expanding" (by letters & vowels) and stands midway between ugghat.ana & vittharan.a ==> 'condensing & detailing'. in between antara antaraa: "in between" (of space & time), midway, inside; during, meanwhile, between. antalikkha (Sanskrit: antariks.a): situated in between sky and earth; the atmosphere or air. (DN 2.15; AN 3.239; AN 4.199; Sutta nipata 222, 688; Dhammapada 127) antalikkhacara: walking through the air. (Vinaya 1.21; DN 1.17; SN 1.111; Jataka 5.26 inner antara tepura: "inner town", the king's palace, especially its inner apartments. (Vinaya 1.75, 269; AN 5.81;Jataka 2.125; Jataka 4.472) ovaraka: forbidden or secret room, an inner room. (Vinaya 1.217; MN 1.253; Jataka 1.391) kaaya: (application of) k_ya in the sense of experiencing a great joy; the whole being, the "inner sense," or heart. This realization of intense happiness (such as it is while it lasts), p_ti--sukha, is the result of the four stages of meditation (jhaana / dhyaana), and as such it is always mentioned after the jh_nas in the formula: so imam eva k_yam vivekajena p_ti--sukhena abhisandeti . . . = "His very body does he so pervade with the joy and ease born of detachment from worldliness." (DN 1.73 sq. = MN 1.277; AN 2.41) kaaya: A similar context is that in which k_ya is represented as passaddha, calmed down, i. e. in a state which is free from worldly attachment (vivekaja). This "peace" of the body (may be translated as "my senses, my spirits" in this connection) flows out of the peace of the mind and this is born out of the joy accompanying complete satisfaction (pamudita) in attaining the desired end. The formula is 'pamuditassa pati jayati patimanassa kayo passambhati, passaddhakayo sukham vedeti, sukhino cittam samadhiyati. (DN 3.241, DN 3.288; SN 4.351; MN 1.37; AN 3.21, AN 3.285; AN 4.176; AN 5.3, AN 5.333) antepuradvaara: the door of the inner chamber. (MN 2.100); -- metaphorically of the door leading to Nibbana: amatadvaara! (SN 1.137; AN 5.346)inner room, angaara Gabbha--Private chamber, angaara Gabbha,interior, angaara Gabbha, Cavity, angaara Gabbha, within, abbhantare at dawn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" < cforsyth1@b...> wrote: > Yahhey! Whoa! Get a rope on that li'l critter! > > Hey Lisa! > > I think one of your baby scribbles escaped from the Drafts fold before > the release time .... :-) > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > I have did a bit of study just on some of the words related to > duality and non > > duality....I am digging a bit deeper and I shall see what I come up > with. I did a > > search on messages for dvaya but I am of searched incorrectly. I've > never > > tried to search a groups messages before. Here is my list: 46891 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:01pm Subject: Re: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) sarahprocter... Hi Frank (& Nina), Just to add to Nina’s comments here: --- frank wrote: > Checking my pali dictionary, it mentions avijja and moha as synonymous. ... S: Yes, this is as I understand. As Nina said, just like there are many terms for wisdom, so there also are for ignorance. .... > The > avijja in the 12 dependent origination links seems to resemble the > visuddhimagga definition below for moha, whereas the first definition of > moha from athasalini seems to have a more general application of > ignorance, > ignorance with regard to immorality and ignorance of even worldly > knowledges. .... S: I checked the Vism definition, X1V, 163 and it’s identical to the one here from what I can see: > The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives the following > definition of moha: *** > “Delusion” has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to > knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function of covering > the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed > to right practice(4) or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise > attention; and should be regarded as the root of all immoralities." *** S: Here is the Pali: “Moho cittassa andhabhaavalakkha.no a~n~naa.nalakkha.no vaa asampa.tivedharaso aaramma.nasabhaavacchaadanaraso vaa asammaapa.tipattipaccupa.t.thaano andhakaarapaccupa.t.thaano vaa ayoniso manasikaarapada.t.thaano sabbaakusalaana.m muulan ti da.t.thabbo.” ***** S: I don’t read any ‘more general application’, but ignorance of characteristics of realities, the opposite of understanding and patipatti as a result of ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention). Nothing to do with worldly knowledge as I understand. You may have been referring to the Dhsg passage on moha quoted in the previous extract.(‘Cetasikas’ 227a). Let me quote another translation which I think you may find more helpful for the same passage. I’d been intending to check it and quote it anyway for my own interest: Dhammasa”nganii, 390, transl by U Kyaw Khine: “What at that time is bewilderment (moha)? ..... “That which at that time is ignorance (a~n~naa.na), not seeing (the Truth) (adassa.na), incomprehension (of the Truth) (anabhisamaya), lack of proper knowledge (of the Truth) (ananubodha), misapprehension (of the impermanent, etc. nature of phenomena) (asambodha), lack of penetrative knowledge (appa.tivedha), inability to grasp well (the impermanent, etc. nature of phenomena ) (as”mgaahana), inability to grasp completely (the Truth as it really is) (apariyogaahana), inability to view correctly (the impermanent, etc., nature of phenomena) (asamapekkhana), inability to reflect properly (apaccavekkhana); inability to distinguish between right and wrong (apaccakkhakamma), that which destroys purity of mind (dummejjha), foolishness (baalya), lack of clear comprehension (asampaja~n~na), bewilderment (moha), intense bewilderment (pamoha), absolute bewilderment (sammoha), lack of comprehension of the Four Ariya Truths (avijjaa), whirlpool of ignorance (avijjogha), yoke of ignorance (avijjaayoga) potential ignorance (avijjaanusaya) upsurge of ignorance (avijjaapariyu.t.thaana) barrier of ignorance (avijjaali”ngii), bewilderment which is the root of demeritoriousness (moha akusalamuula) – this at that time is bewilderment (moha).” ***** S: I hope this clarifies the synonyms for moha! The Vibha”nga, 180 also gives a similar list of synonyms for ignorance (avijjaa), inc. moha: “Therein what is the element of ignorance? That which is absence of knowledge, absence of vision, absence of understanding etc. etc.”  “Tattha katamaa avijjaadhaatu? Ya.m a~n~naa.na.m adassana.m anabhisamayo ananubodho asambodho appa.tivedho assa”ngaaha.naa apariyogaaha.naa asamapekkhanaa apaccavekkha.naa apaccakkhakamma.m dummejjha.m baalya.m asampaja~n~na.m moho pamoho sammoho avijaa avijjogho avijjaayogo avijjaanusayo avijjaapariy.t.thaana.m avijaala”ngii moho akusalamula.m aya.m vuccati ‘avijjaadhaatu’ “ ***** S: Lots more excellent and detailed exposition on ignorance in Sammohavinodanii (Comy to the Vibha”nga), 635ff Here are two brief quotes which use the two terms together. (Much more detailed quotes can be found under ‘ignoranc’ in U.P., I think): “Delusion (moha) is by deluding. Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of confusing. “It finds what should not be found” (aviniya.m vindati) is ignorance (avijjaa).” And on the profundity of the 4NT: “But the thruth of cessation is extremely profound and extremely hard to see; thus this darkness of delusion (moha) which conceals the four Noble Truths, which are profound because hard to see and hard to see because profound, is called ignorance (avijjaa)” ***** Briefly back to yr qus: > 1) did moha have a more general meaning of ignorance before Buddhism > appropriated the term? ... S: I think most terms had a more general meaning or Sanskrit definition....Only the Buddha could have used these terms with their specific meanings with regard to the 4NT. The PTS dict gives Sk.moha & Vedic mogha. You’d have to ask an expert on etymology for more! .... > 2) which definition of moha below is correct? ... S: I don’t see any distinctions. Let me know if I’ve missed anything. Different aspects in different contexts, I’d say...e.g discussing paccaya or Noble Truths or roots. No contradictions I know of. ... > 3) if avijja and moha are indeed synonyms, then why isn't just one term > used > consistently throughout the canon? Why is the dependent origination > formula > not listing moha at #1? ... S: I asked the same question in Bkk. I think in any language we use different words according to context and to highlight particular aspects. Like Nina said, sometimes samma di.t.thi is used and sometimes pa~n~na or vijjaa of sampaja~n~na. It’s the same for many terms. The Vibhanga gives lists and lists of such synonyms. .... > With your permission, I'd like to forward this question to the pali list > if > I don't get satisfactory answers here. ... S: No problem Pls include a link if you repost part of the message from here. Also, pls let us know if you find more satisfactory answers:). I’d also be glad if you’d let me know if any of the above doesn’t satisfy so we might discuss it further. Metta, Sarah. p.s I liked your discussion with Howard and your comments on the value you see in preserving the Pali canon, Frank. ============================= 46892 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:04pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 229 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Moha is a “folly”, it is “blindness”, because whenever there is moha, there is “unwise attention” to the object which is experienced. For example, when we eat delicious food, attachment is bound to arise and then there is also moha. We are at that moment enslaved to the object which is experienced and we do not know that there is unwise attention. Moha does not know akusala as akusala and kusala as kusala and it does not know the conditions for their arising. If one has not studied the Dhamma one does not know that whether akusala citta arises or not depends on the manner of attention to the object and not on the pleasant or unpleasant objects themselves. Thus, the citta is the source of kusala or akusala, not the objects which are experienced, not the outward circumstances. We desire pleasant objects and when the object is unpleasant we are disappointed and sad. If one has not studied the Dhamma there is ignorance of kamma and vipåka. When one suffers pain one does not realize that the unpleasant experience through the bodysense is vipåka, that it is the result of a bad deed which has been committed. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46893 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - The only background information about the "sword of wisdom" I know is that "Manjushri is the bodhisattva of wisdom and the patron deity of scholars : in his right hand, he carries the sword of wisdom, and in the left hand he carries a coy of the Mahayana sutra called the 'Perfection of Wisdom' ". But I have no idea how Milindapanha is related to Mahayana. Why do you think "that everything 'good' in Mahayana has its basis in the original teachings" despite the fact that it is post-canonical? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Lodewijk) - > (snipped) > You know, I wonder, as an aside, whether this section of the Milindapanha might not be a primary source for the Mahayana notion of the "sword of wisdom". The personification of wisdom in Mahayana, the archetypal Bodhisattva Manjusri, is always envisioned wielding the sword of wisdom. I happen to think that everything "good" in Mahayana has its basis in the original teachings. (I guess the Milindapanha is actually post-canonical, though.) > > With metta, > Howard 46894 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:23am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - The second part of your reply is fine with me. The first part, however, may need a little explanation. Herman: > Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that >no thing is knowable as itself (there is no essence). All things are a > convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, > or knowable as themselves. > Is your anatta definition (above) based on the Anattalakkhana Sutta? "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' [Repeat for feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness.] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Thank you for asking the question. > (snipped) > Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of > the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and > predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to > understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent > origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) > things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. > 46895 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati sarahprocter... Hi KenH (Htoo and all) --- kenhowardau wrote: > S: I pointed out that the term, `pajaanaati' (which he was > referring to) was given in the Vibhanga as a synonym for panna. > Remember the analogies of the way that the child, the old woman and > the money-changer view the coins for the ways in which sanna, citta > and panna experience dhammas? Perhaps we can say `knows > clearly'. > ------------------------------ > > Does that prove, once and for all, that the Satipatthana Sutta is > referring to dhammas, and not to concepts, when it says, "When he is > walking, he knows, clearly, he is walking?" > > In other words, does pajaanaati always refer exclusively to dhammas, > and does pajaanaa always refer exclusively to concepts? Or is it not > so simple? .... S: To be more accurate, I believe pajaanaa is the synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na and sammadi.t.thi. I assume pajaanaati to be the verb, as in 'he knows'. So in the quote about 'going', he knows the characteristics (lakkhana)of dhammas whilst walking etc. In the context of satipatthana (as in this sutta), it would refer exclusively here to dhammas, I believe. [Of course pa~n~na is also required in samatha development with concepts as objects]. .... > > ------------------------------------------------- > S: > As I recently quoted from the tiika: > > "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of > moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities > of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are > applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular > sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. ***Here > (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of > awareness is to be taken.***" > ... > S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and > awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and > rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, that is the understanding many of us have had for a long time. > (Many others have understood the opposite.) But, to repeat my > question, does the addition of "ati" in the word, pajaanaati settle > the issue? ... S: I would say it just makes a noun into a verb. But perhaps Nina, Htoo or another Pali expert will correct me if this is wrong. ... >Does 'pajaanaati' tell us that the particular (and not the > general) sense of "going" is intended, or is it the other way around? > In other words, "or does the right interpretation of "going" tell us > that pajaanaati is referring to characteristics and not to ideas > about walking?" .... S: I think it is our understanding of satipatthana as gained from reading the Tipitaka widely and from developing awareness and understanding that leads to confidence that whatever we're reading, it is about dhammas to be understood. The commentary confirms here that it is the 'particular' characteristics of dhammas that are known, rather than the general sense of moving on etc which is generally known and doesn't lead to any reduction in an idea of self. The only proof is in the tasting as someone round here says (??who??). Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, welcome back! I thought #46841 on conditions was excellent. A few differences left to iron out in #46848 Mahasatipatthana Sutta- esp. the directing to the primary object:/) ======================================= ======= 46896 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH (Htoo*, Nina & all) , (Htoo* see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46575) I didn’t forget our discussion – just I tend to give newcomers priority and yours are always 'knotty':). --- kenhowardau wrote: > Atthasalini: > > "..the term `mind' (naama) is applied to mental > properties, because `names' once given to them are fixed, or > because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend > the mind unto themselves. `Matter' is that which changes its > state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." > ------------------------------------ > > When the Atthasalini analyses terms by giving a long list of > explanations, it is often tempting to ask, "Well, which is it?" :-) I > hope that doesn't sound too disrespectful. Obviously the fault is > with me, not with the texts, but (for example) the > explanation, "because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves," > seems to add nothing. Wouldn't that apply equally to rupas? ... S: It’s not diserespectful. It is difficult I find too. I forget why I even raised it. Pali : “(naamaruupaduke) naamakara.na.t.thena naama.t.thena namana.t.thena ca naama.m, ruppa.na.t.thena ruupa.m.” My best ‘guess’- Only namas bend (namanti) or experience objects, but namas include nibbana as well which is said ‘to bend’ the mind to it. The term is not used with rupas, maybe because of the nature of rupas to be ‘inactive and unoccupied etc’. They are rupa in the sense of being molested (ruppana.t.thena) etc – molested by cold, heat, hunger and so on. Nina may have more on it. ... > I am also mystified by, "`Matter' is that which changes its > state or condition [acc. To heat or cold etc]." But, again, that > is due to my ignorance, not to any fault in the texts. ... S: Dispeller 9 “Herein, in what sense is it materiality (ruupa)? It is materiality in the sense of being molested [or battered](ruppana.t.thena). For this is said by the Blessed One: “And why, bhikkhus, is materiality said? It is what is molested, bhikkhus, that is why it is called materiality. Whereby is it molested? It is molested by cold, it is molested by heat, it is molested by hunger, it is molested by thirst, it is molested by gadflies and flies and wind and sun and creeping things. It is molested; that is why it is called materiality (S iii 86).” “......’It is molested’:{it is disturbed;] it is well-beaten; it is oppressed; it is broken is the meaning....” The text continues with all sorts of gruesome examples of being molested by cold, heat, thirst and so on in the various hell and ghost planes where it’s more obvious:). Let me know if you need more! Just checked BB’ s translation of the above ref (SN22:79 ‘Being Devoured’): “And why, bhikkhus, do you call it deformed? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold..heat......flies...mosquitoes, wind, sun and serpents........” BB gives detailed footnotes on p1070 inc. “Spk adds that being ‘deformed’ is the specific characteristic (paccattalakkha.na) of form, which distinguishes it from feeling and the other aggregates.....”. ***** > > ----------------------- > S: > Back to Htoo's comment and the role of panna as forerunner > in various suttas, let me add this quote from the Atthasalini too as > clearly you've had some discussion on this point and I'd like > to make it very clear. > ----------------------- > > We didn't have much discussion on that, but I can see now that there > was a lot we could have discussed. I can almost, but not quite, see > the relevance in knowing which dhamma - citta or panna - is the > forerunner and when. I can see that panna must run ahead of viriya > and samadhi etc., but I'm not so sure about 'ahead of citta.' I > suppose it will be more meaningful when, eventually, I study the > Paccaya. .... S: In the lokuttara cittas, I understand panna to be the forerunner (of citta and cetasikas) in terms of predominance....it is panna, supported by the other factors, which realizes nibbana and eradicates the defilements. Like you, I need to read and consider more. .... > The term 'transcendental phenomena' (lokuttara.m dhamma.m) is a new > one to me. In the quote, it seems broad enough to include cittas and > cetasikas of the *mundane* fivefold path. With that reading, panna > would be the forerunner in moments of satipatthana, which, I think > you agree, is the case. .... S: No, I think lokuttara dhamma just refer to supramundane cittas and cetasikas, not to mundance fivefold path. But of course, panna is developing at moments of satipatthana (as forerunner??). Again, I’d need to check and consider more. It’s a good qu. I think if we read the quote I gave below with MN117 and AN10:121, we can say that at moments of mundane path, citta is the leader, but panna is the forerunner of the other path factors. At moments of supramundane path, panna is the forerunner of all. Later it quotes suttas about citta as leader., but then pointing to suttas which give wisdom as principal and again it stresses that this is with regard to lokuttara dhammas. Any comments or assistance most welcome. Metta, Sarah ..... > > Atthasalini, Analysis of Terms: > > > > "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, > `the king has arrived,' it is clear that he does not come alone without his > attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be > > understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) > phenomena (pa.n.naasakusaladhammehi). But it may be said that consciousness > has arisen in the sense of a forerunner (pubba"ngama.m). For in worldly > > phenomena consciousness (lokiya dhamma.m) is the chief, > consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. > > > > In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, > understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the > > forerunner." ============= 46897 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran sarahprocter... Hi KenH (& Andrew T), I pulled out this message from my in box when looking for the last one and a couple of points got my attention, so a late butt in here too: --- Andrew wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > There is the obvious objection, "Who is going to do the dirty work? > > Someone has to grow the crops and remove vermin from the restaurants > > etc." The equally obvious answer has been, "There is no shortage > of > > people who are only too willing to do those jobs." > > > > I'm not sure that answer is entirely satisfactory. It hints at a > them- > > and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators > > (for example) can't be as good as other people. .... S: Isn't this like the meat-eating and leather belts arguments? Are we meant to world-minders or just mind our own cittas? Again, can we ever say what the results of our actions will be? Aren't conditions far too complex for that? Lobha, dosa and moha make the world go round, surely? If there's no thought of farmers, pest exterminators and 'them and us' now, where are these people? No Rusty, no Lodewijk, no exterminator....as you always kindly remind everyone:). ..... >>But I think the > > suttas tell us about hunters, soldiers and even an executioner who > > attained the final goal. Are we to assume that they followed those > > careers only before hearing the Dhamma? Even so, they must have had > > extraordinary accumulations of sila and panna at the time. > > > > In at least one of those cases (quoted in Sarah's musings thread) > the > > hunters were the husband and sons of a sotapanna. Surely they > > would have heard the Dhamma from her. If so, that would suggest > they > > were good Buddhists even while carrying on their 'wrong' > livelihoods. .... S: I think this is a very big assumption I wouldn't make. The 'ingredients' were ready so that when they heard the Buddha, they understood the Truths. There's no hint of any knowledge before this. Like Bahiya and the other examples given in the texts of ppl following wrong views and lifestyles right up until they heard the Buddha. ..... > > (I realise, BTW, they couldn't continue in wrong livelihood after > > Stream-entry.) ... S: No. Sorry to overload you, KenH....we don't often chat this much:). Andrew T, you've been doing a lot of sutta study in the last couple of years -- how about selecting one as a 'favourite' (Tep quiz)with a few of your comments. If anyone doesn't like to choose a favourite (like Howard and Jon for two), why not just share one you find it useful to reflect on? KenH? Other Cooranites? Metta, Sarah ========= 46898 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN117 with Tep (was: Outside the Dispensation for Dan...) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > Thank you for your patience in going through my long message about > right view. I feel that it is a worn-out issue and we should stop at > this > point, if you don't disagree. ... S: No problem. I'm sure any difference in view will come up again in other guises:) Thanks for all your comments, Tep. .... > > Sarah: <...> Of > course, it's just what is most convenient to you too. It's a lot of > work. > > Tep: Please do not forget that only a few people (in a thousand, > maybe) are fond of research and cross-referencing the way you do > :-). "A lot of work" is unlike a lot of fun to 99% of people I have > known . > So please let me take a middle-path approach (that avoids both > extremes)! ... S: Just to clarify, I meant, 'it's a lot of work for you'!! We all have the fun just reading and only checking a detail or two if we wish:). Your middle-path sounds very sensible. Best wishes for it....Like the way Nina and Larry see the Vism thread as a 'life-work', there's no hurry! Metta, Sarah ======== 46899 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Any Kind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Revulsion Frees since Disillusion Releases: Any kind of form whatsoever; Any kind of feeling whatsoever; Any kind of perception whatsoever; Any kind of construction whatsoever; Any kind of consciousness whatsoever; Whether past, present or future; Whether internal or external; Whether fair or foul; Whether high or low; Whether far or near; Should be seen & understood as it really is: This is transient, impermanent, uncertain & unsafe! This is thus disappointing, frustrating, and painful! This is thus 'Not Me', 'Not Mine', 'Not My Self'... Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types of consciousness. Being disgusted such one experiences disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion. By this very disillusion craving is extinguished and the mind is released! Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no higher state beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 124-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 46900 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra jwromeijn Hallo Larry, and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > I think the emptiness of the Heart Sutra is different from nothingness. > The emptiness of the Heart Sutra has to do with the ungraspable nature > of dhammas. It is a characteristic of dhammas rather than an absence of dhammas. Joop: Thank you Larry, this is very helpful. I still have one question (not specially to you: to all including myself): What is the "nothingness" of the seventh jhana? Of the two Pali- terms "natthibhava" gives in Google no readable results at all, and "akincannayatana" only texts about the absorption itself or the result of it, but not about the object of it. Nyanatiloka's dictionary does not mention them. Or is there nothing to say about "nothingness" in conventional language? Do I understand you well that the "nothingness" of the Abhidhammata Sangaha is about the absence of dhammas? What is "the absence of dhammas": the absence of me experiencing them or the insight that my experiences are an illusion? And, as I understand you well, the Phena Sutta (SN.XXII,95) is about emptiness (and not about nothingness). It was the first time I've seen this Sutta, I will take more time contemplating it. (My language is not perfect: "me experiencing dhammas" is a tautology because in my opinion dhammas ARE experiences; stating that they exist outside sentient beings is ontology. But that's another topic) Metta Joop 46901 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... !!! htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, I think BS ( Bhikkhu Samahita ) is mostly unavailable unless he is specifically sent messages to his mail box directly. He has many many groups and he just sends messages without ever checking most sites whethere there will be replies or responses. So mostly be unilateral. Pure poems may or may not work for others. Pure Pali is hard to understand for average population. Pure English sometimes miss the teachings if the writers do not fully realize what the real teachings are. Here I just re-format and re-present the message of Bhikkhu Samahita for the benefit of the members here. The poem sounds good. But when there is no power of understanding poem then the materials in it will not be effective. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: Friends: Revulsion Frees since Disillusion Releases: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this is the heading of the poem. Revulsion means 'plucking' 'strong pulling away' 'strong drawing away' 'utter distaste'. Disillusion = Dis + illusion Illusion = false interpretation of the real image There is a rope. A man sees it as a snake. There is an image. The man sees that image. But his interpretation is not as a rope (real) but as a snake (illusion or false-interpretation) Disillusion may means 'the opposite of illusion' or may be 'removal of illusion'. So the heading becomes quite complicated. If it can present in the original Pali it will be simpler. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Any kind of form whatsoever; Any kind of feeling whatsoever; Any kind of perception whatsoever; Any kind of construction whatsoever; Any kind of consciousness whatsoever; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1. ruupa (materials not just form but all paramattha ruupas) 2. vedana (feeling_3 kinds or 5 kinds) acceptable, unacceptable, indifference physical unpleasantness, mental displeasure physical pleasure, mental pleasure, and indifference 3. sanna (perception, cognition) 4. sankhaara ( formation, construction, actions, all cetasikas except vedana and sanna ) 5. vinnaana ( all consciousness or 89 cittas or 121 cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu SDamahita: Whether past, present or future; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Atiina, paccuppanna, anaagata; This part does not need Pali words. English words work here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Whether internal or external; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ajjhatta or bahiddha; English is equally working. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Whether fair or foul; Whether high or low; Whether far or near; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are just modifications. Main thing is to see what 5 aggregates or 5 khandhas or 5 upadaanakkhandhas are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Should be seen & understood as it really is: This is transient, impermanent, uncertain & unsafe! ------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: He may be saying for 'anicca'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: This is thus disappointing, frustrating, and painful! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: He may be saying for 'dukkha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: This is thus 'Not Me', 'Not Mine', 'Not My Self'... --------------------------------- Htoo: He may be saying for 'anatta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types of consciousness. ------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think noble learners is those on the Path just before attainment of arahatta magga naana. Arahattas do not need to learn any more. Disgusted? I think Pali word are better than 'disgusted'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita: Being disgusted such one experiences disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion. By this very disillusion craving is extinguished and the mind is released! Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no higher state beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 124-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it is better to explain rather than posting poems and stay away from response. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46902 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: Like a madman...... jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil, Tep, Joop, Herman & all, > > I had also thought of the following verses in response to Phil's question > about the teachings being `against the ways of the world'. > *** > From the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentary, MN1 (Bodhi transl) > Hallo Sarah (and all), Thanks for this Sutta, it's a difficult one, the translatators of my dutch translation (Janssen/Breet)say. I'm still trying to understand; till now I don't have the wrong views mentoned in this Sutta. And I do hope this message is not your answer to my three questions in # 46699: - CAN DE LIST OF DHAMMAS BE EXTENDED? - MUST IT BE EXTENTED WITH A 'SOCIAL CITTA' ? - IS 'ONLY FIVE KHANDHAS' AN EXTREME VIEW? Especially I'm interested what you think of my ontology versus soteriology view Metta Joop 46903 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Ken H and all, I just reply some part only here from Sarah's message to Ken H. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi KenH (Htoo and all) .... S: To be more accurate, I believe pajaanaa is the synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na and sammadi.t.thi. I assume pajaanaati to be the verb, as in 'he knows'. So in the quote about 'going', he knows the characteristics (lakkhana)of dhammas whilst walking etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pajaanaati = pa + jaananti. Jaananti means 'know'. Pa means 'along' 'in detail''intensive' 'well'. Examples. A man runs on a track of about 100 steps. An ordinary, uninstructed people would not know each and every step when running. But he may know at a point that he is running. This is just a temporary and he may be thinking about destination or target place or other rivals. But 'pajaanaati' means each step is known as it goes. So 'know along as it goes' 'know well' 'know intensively' 'know in detail' 'know in fullest sense' 'know penetratively'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued to say to Ken H: In the context of satipatthana (as in this sutta), it would refer exclusively here to dhammas, I believe. [Of course pa~n~na is also required in samatha development with concepts as objects]. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken H and Sarah, I agree with Sarah. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: I would say it just makes a noun into a verb. But perhaps Nina, Htoo or another Pali expert will correct me if this is wrong. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not a Pali expert but just a learner. I think so far you are right Sarah. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Does 'pajaanaati' tell us that the particular (and not the > > general) sense of "going" is intended, or is it the other way around? > > In other words, "or does the right interpretation of "going" tell us > > that pajaanaati is referring to characteristics and not to ideas > > about walking?" .... S: I think it is our understanding of satipatthana as gained from reading the Tipitaka widely and from developing awareness and understanding that leads to confidence that whatever we're reading, it is about dhammas to be understood. The commentary confirms here that it is the 'particular' characteristics of dhammas that are known, rather than the general sense of moving on etc which is generally known and doesn't lead to any reduction in an idea of self. The only proof is in the tasting as someone round here says (??who??). Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already wrote on earlier part of satipatthaana in simple English. Just the general idea of movement and the knowledge of it does not make any maturity. What is to be seen is naama or ruupa. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s Htoo, welcome back! I thought #46841 on conditions was excellent. A few differences left to iron out in #46848 Mahasatipatthana Sutta- esp. the directing to the primary object:/) ======================================= Htoo: I put it. I know you will pick that out and make a point for discussion. You are thinking to iron out the idea of self drawing back to the primary object, aren't you? :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 46904 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Ken H & other Cooranites/Qld DSGers, I know Nina already answered but I'd like to add a little more to your first question as you kindly addressed me too. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Firstly there was the question; "Does a cetasika experience its object?" I would have thought the answer was clearly, yes. the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. > > In transcendental phenomena (lokuttara.m dhamma.m), however, understanding > is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the > forerunner." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Ken H, Sarah explanation is complete and with provision of evidences. Nothing to add here. Just to reply that I read this post. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46905 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Ven Samahita, Tep, KenH and all, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Here I just re-format and re-present the message of Bhikkhu Samahita > for the benefit of the members here ... S: Thank you, Htoo. Your comments are very helpful and have led me to check the text which I don’t usually bother to do. So now I'd like to add a little more too! ... > Revulsion Frees since Disillusion Releases: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I think this is the heading of the poem. > > Revulsion means 'plucking' 'strong pulling away' 'strong drawing > away' 'utter distaste'. ... S: Thank you:) Nidanasamyutta, SN12: Susima Sutta (iii) I think from the ref. at the end to the Pali. The beginning of the sutta is nicely relevant to a couple of posts I wrote earlier about pa~n~na as forerunner and pa~n~na, rather than concentration as being the ‘key’ in the development of insight and attainment of nibbana. Some extra detail from BB;s transl: “[The Blessed One said:] ‘First, Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbaana.’* ‘I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief.’ ‘Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbaana.’** (*BB note: “Pubbe kno Susiima dhamma.t.thiti~naa.na.m, pacchaa nibbaane ~naa.nam. Spk: Insight knowledge is ‘knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma,’ which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path arises later. Spk-pt: The ‘stability of the Dhamma’ is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammaana.m .thitataa ta.msabhaavataa): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself....”) (**BB comy note: “Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is what is meant: ‘Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samaadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samaadhi-aanisa.msaa), nor the outcome of concentration (samaadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassanaa), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbaana.'" Spk-pt: "'Even without concentration (vinaa pi samaadhi.m)': even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkha.nappatta.m); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanaayaanika).") [see other posts under ‘Susima’ in U.P.] ***** The sutta then continues with the Buddha asking Susima whether the khandhas are permanent or impermanent, suffering or happiness, self or nonself and then the extract given which you help explain, Htoo. Through the development of insight, the khandhas can be directly seen for what they are without any special concentration or focusing or selection. Any form (i.e, not a special one), any feeling etc (not a special one) should be understood for what it is. This is the understanding of dhammas (not concepts) without any ‘primary’ object. In other words, the development of satipatthana leading to full realization of nibbana. Metta, Sarah ======= > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhikkhu Samahita: > > Any kind of form whatsoever; > Any kind of feeling whatsoever; > Any kind of perception whatsoever; > Any kind of construction whatsoever; > Any kind of consciousness whatsoever; > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > 1. ruupa (materials not just form but all paramattha ruupas) > 2. vedana (feeling_3 kinds or 5 kinds) > acceptable, unacceptable, indifference > physical unpleasantness, mental displeasure > physical pleasure, mental pleasure, and indifference > 3. sanna (perception, cognition) > 4. sankhaara ( formation, construction, actions, all cetasikas > except vedana and sanna ) > 5. vinnaana ( all consciousness or 89 cittas or 121 cittas ) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <....> 46906 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati onco111 > The only proof is in the tasting as someone round here says (??who??). Erik! 46907 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:45am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > (I lost your message due to a problem with my mail program. Sorry for > the delay.) That's no problem. Thanks for the consideration to reply back and to feel regret for the delay (which wasn't a problem). > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Jon: The person who thinks that a certain action is necessary for the > > arising of insight, and the person who thinks that same action is > > merely conducive to the arising of insight, are both likely to do that > > action with the idea that insight will result > > > > James: No, they are not both likely to do that. You are guessing and > > putting forth a subjective interpretation as fact. Even in the > > Buddha's time, when monks were given a meditation/reflection subject, > > they didn't automatically assume that attention to that subject was > > going to bring about insight. Sometimes they would go back to the > > Buddha for another subject because they thought the first one wasn't > > going to work. Jon, they do not believe in rituals just because they > > believe in the possible effectiveness of certain meditation subjects. > > The question here is (I think -- please correct me if I've misunderstood > you): Would the idea that 'samatha bhavana, while not necessary for > vipassana bhavana, is nevertheless conducive to vipassana bhavana' be > belief in rites and rituals? I'm not sure why you find this to be the question. I don't think we were discussing samatha bhavana as opposed to vipassana bhavana. I thought that we were discussing satipatthana, which includes both samatha and vipassana to varying degrees at different times (at least to my understanding). Sorry if I wrote something leading to that conclusion- it wasn't my intent. > > Let me put it this way. To my understanding, whatever one's present > level of samatha development may be, insight can (potentially) be > developed at the present moment, if the teachings have been correctly > understood. So to think that there should first be the development of > (more) samatha, or that if there were more highly developed samatha now > there would be more insight, would be to focus in the wrong direction. Okay. Again, I don't know where or how samatha came to enter this discussion. I don't have much reply because I don't understand the basis for your observations. > > > Jon: or, to put it another way, that the more of the action they do, > > the more insight there is likely to be. So in terms of belief in > > rituals, the situation is the same, as I see it. > > > > James: Well, again you are stating your personal opinion and there is > > no reason I should believe your personal opinion in this matter. You > > need to point out where the Buddha taught the same thing you are > > stating and I will believe you. > > I'll keep this in mind and let you know when I find a suitable passage. That would be nice of you. When the time is right, I believe kamma will bring to your attention a passage which either supports or negates your position spoken here. Please share whichever the case may be. > > > Jon: I agree that we should be realistic about the present level of > > our development (and, accordingly, the potential for progress in this > > lifetime). > > > > James: Good. Now, if you would just realize that the effort applied > > to practice is more or less directly proportional to the level of > > development, we would be in business! ;-)) > > OK, you asked for it: "You need to point out where the Buddha taught > the same thing you are stating and I will believe you." ;-)) Okay, fair enough. When I come across a passage which links efforts to results, I will share it. However, honestly, I am hesitant to do that because the potential for the discussion to branch out into unhelpful directions is very great. Jon, from my perspective, you tend to read suttas in a way which supports your life choices rather than reading to discover the original intent. We are all guilty of this from some extent to another, but you tend to be rather more dogmatic than most. > > > Jon: However, I was not aware of anything in the Satipatthana > > Sutta or its commentaries that makes the distinction that you do here > > -- that kayanupassana is for ordinary lay-folk and the other 3 > > anupassanas are for those living the monk's life. I'd be interested to > > hear more on your thinking about this. > > > > James: I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the > > Satipatthana Sutta, the whole discourse, was addressed to bhikkhus and > > bhikkhunis. The Buddha didn't give teachings like that to lay folk. > > But you did draw a distinction between the section on the body and the > other 3 sections. I'd be interested to know the basis for that. (If > this is another of those areas that's too hot to handle, I'll understand > ;-)) I am not aware of drawing any distinction between these various sections. Please paraphrase the distinction I drew, as you see it, or quote to me where I drew that distinction. Right now I am telling you Jon that I don't know of any distinctions and I didn't mean to state otherwise. > > Jon Metta, James 46908 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/23/05 3:11:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Why do you think "that everything 'good' in Mahayana has its basis in the original teachings" despite the fact that it is post-canonical? ==================== The fact that the Milindipanha is post-canonical was just an aside. My sense that everything good in Mahayana has its basis in the original teachings is not a "principle" I'm dedicated to ;-), but simply reflects my limited experience. Everything in Mahayana that I have found to be "off" in some way or other has been something foreign to the tipitika, and everything that I have benefited from either also occurs in the tipitaka in rather much the same form or is an insightful explication, or faithful embellishment of material in the tipitaka. Speaking in broad strokes, I see the Yogacara/Vijnanavada of Vasubandhu as having a basis in the phenomenalistic leanings of the tipitaka (the Bahiya Sutta being just one example), and I see the Centrism of Nagarjuna as based in such teachings as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta and the Uragga Sutta. I find what is "true Dhamma" in Mahayana to be a rendering or exegesis of the Buddha word, and I believe that word is most directly and faithfully given in the tipitaka. The tipitaka for the most part teaches a coherent doctrine of liberation, whereas the Mahayana scriptures require, for me, a more careful picking and choosing. (But, with careful picking, there are wonderful and quite beautiful gems to be found there.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46909 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi again, Tep - In a message dated 6/23/05 7:47:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Speaking in broad strokes, I see the Yogacara/Vijnanavada of Vasubandhu as having a basis in the phenomenalistic leanings of the tipitaka (the Bahiya Sutta being just one example), and I see the Centrism of Nagarjuna as based in such teachings as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta and the Uragga Sutta. ==================== I should have also mentioned as probable strong influences on all of Mahayana the Phena Sutta and the Kalakarama Sutta. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46910 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:28am Subject: A Basis for Vijnanavada in the Sutta Pitaka upasaka_howard Hi, all - I found the following article by Alex Wayman at the site http://www.orientalia.org/article689.html. It expresses a Buddhist phenomenalism that I believe may have been as influence on the development of vijnanavada: _________________ The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans - whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, - whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, - that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: 'Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans - whatsoever is seen ... by the mind - all that I do not know' - it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I both know it and know it not' - that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' - it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the 'apprehender' and the 'apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an 'unseen', he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of 'an unheard', he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is 'Such'. Moreover, than he who is 'Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare." [Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called 'the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being 'Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled. "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" - no such clinging for the Tathagatas. This scripture clarifies the Buddhist prescription "to see things as they really are," since it implies that one should simply see without adding anything. Recall the ancient Hermes epigram found on a Grecian urn: "Who shall say more, will lie."(9) As to the 'barb' of the verse, the Pali is sallam, equivalent to the Vedic word salya, which down the centuries means an 'arrow', on which one is impaled (if such be the case). I have cited this scripture in this essay because I do believe that Vasubandhu's popularizing treatises have such a scriptural source in the background. ----------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46911 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:44am Subject: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and All), I have arrived safely in America and I am looking forward to a relaxing summer with my family. America seems so sterile and vacant compared to Egypt (missing are the crowded streets, cats jumping from open garbage bins, honking horns, donkey carts, begging children, etc.), but America is beginning to experience the fruits (vipaka) of its bad kamma. I can feel it in the streets and see it on the news. Anyway, I promised you that I would write a bit about the sutta I picked for Tep's challenge, DN8 "The Great Lion's Roar". Just as the Lion's roar is the chief sound of all the animals- the sound which makes animals stop cold in their tracks and pay heed- the teaching of the Buddha is the lion's roar of all teachings. It is the supreme teaching to which, when compared, other teachings come out as nothing more than mouse squeaks and otter barks. The sutta begins with a naked ascetic coming to the Buddha to ask the Buddha about his dhamma (teaching). The significant feature here is that a spiritual seeker, outside the Buddha's dispensation, comes to the Buddha to discover the truth. I think we should identify with this seeker and recognize the thirst for knowledge and wisdom we also carry with us. Actually, I believe it would be best if we always keep this fresh approach, this seeking to learn, so that we may be continually ready to heed the lion's roar. The Buddha begins his reply by explaining that his teaching isn't directly opposed to or in agreement with other teachings. His teaching is based on truth and wisdom, not artifically constructed views of reality. Therefore, his teaching is relative to other teachings in those aspects which agree and disagree. However, the Buddha then makes no qualms to declair that while other teachers have purified themselves (mind and actions) only in part, the Buddha is the only teacher who has purified himself in full. This is important to know because this fact instills confidence in the Buddha and his dhamma as being supreme. The Buddha then explains his dhamma, the Noble Eightfold Path, and why those who follow it know that he is the supreme teacher. The Buddha then summarizes the Noble Eightfold Path as the proper development of morality, of the heart, and of wisdom (which is somewhat different in emphasis than the classic Buddhaghosa classification: sila, samadhi, panna). The Buddha then explains in detail and in brief how one is to develop morality, the heart, and wisdom. The Buddha concludes the sutta by declairing, strongly and forcefully, like a lion's roar, that he is the supreme teacher and that his dhamma is the supreme teaching. The Buddha points out the multiple ways in which he embodies the elements of what he teaches. The sutta ends with the naked ascetic achieving full cofidence in the Buddha and requesting the going forth. The ascetic also declares that he would be willing to be a novice for four years if the sangha decides it should be so. The Buddha gives him the full ordination and shortly thereafter he becomes an arahant. I believe that this sutta isn't too long or too short and contains the teachings spoken in such a way as to lead to sotapanna- which is strongly dependent on confidence in the Buddha and his teaching. Metta, James 46912 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - In the two messages # 46908 and 46909 you mentioned a number of suttas with strong influences on the teachings of Mahayana. I then realized that I had not heard of them before. Thank you for providing the information -- I might study them later on, just to expand my limited horizon of Mahayana knowledge. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Tep - > > In a message dated 6/23/05 7:47:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Speaking in broad strokes, I see the Yogacara/Vijnanavada of > Vasubandhu as having a basis in the phenomenalistic leanings of the tipitaka (the Bahiya Sutta being just one example), and I see the Centrism of Nagarjuna as based in such teachings as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta and the Uragga Sutta. > ==================== > I should have also mentioned as probable strong influences on all of Mahayana the Phena Sutta and the Kalakarama Sutta. > > With metta, > Howard > 46913 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... !!! / Susima Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - The Susima Sutta is probably one of a few that strongly supports gaining insight knowledge directly -- the overwhelming majority of the suttas are about samatha first then vipassana, vipassana first then samatha, or samatha-vipassana yoked together. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note on Susima Sutta is very imformative and should be read. Samyutta Nikaya XII.70: Susima Sutta, About Susima Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. [endquote] Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, Ven Samahita, Tep, KenH and all, > (snipped) > ***** > The sutta then continues with the Buddha asking Susima whether the > khandhas are permanent or impermanent, suffering or happiness, self or nonself and then the extract given which you help explain, Htoo. > Through the development of insight, the khandhas can be directly seen for what they are without any special concentration or focusing or selection. > Any form (i.e, not a special one), any feeling etc (not a special one) > should be understood for what it is. > > This is the understanding of dhammas (not concepts) without any `primary' object. In other words, the development of satipatthana leading to full realization of nibbana. > 46914 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran sarahprocter... KenH & all, TYPO spotted by Jon's legal eagle eye: --- sarah abbott wrote: > Just checked BB’ s translation of the above ref (SN22:79 ‘Being > Devoured’): > > “And why, bhikkhus, do you call it deformed? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, > therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by > cold..heat......flies...mosquitoes, wind, sun and serpents........” **** S: the first line should of course read: “And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, BB's note gives: "ruppati ti kho bhikkave tasmaa ruupan ti vuccati (Frank - more on the etymology of ruppati and ruupa in his note --apparently not related.) (Lisa & all - I expect there are mistakes in some of the Pali passages I quoted today as well as I had to type them out -- still in conversion wilderness. Someone once asked why I didn't go slower and more carefully (??James?). My answer was that I'd probably never post in that case:)) (Joop - no it wasn't my reply to your qus -- be patient. Like Lisa again, I either skip over the 'ontology/soteriology' or look them up and promptly forget what I've found -- maybe you can explain in simple terms what you mean by them.) (James - glad you're well settled back and I look f/w to reading your sutta post later) (Dan- maybe it was ERIK! Did he say 'the proof is in the tasting' or '...in the pudding'? I might have guessed Howard(??) Erik's one was also 'when the rubber meets the road'.) (Colette - Phil just gently babbles rather than 'rants'....when it's late there's a danger I might rant...will get back to you when I have time too. A great choice of bed-time reading. Any favourite sutta?). Metta, Sarah p.s Frank, I remember you first arrived on DSG (a few years ago now) with your favourite sutta, the Chachakka Sutta, MN148 which is such a great one. I remember being very impressed by your post on it. ============= 46915 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Someone once asked why I didn't go slower and more carefully > (??James?). My answer was that I'd probably never post in that case:)) No, it wasn't me. I didn't say that. Go as fast as you want. ;-)) > > (Joop - no it wasn't my reply to your qus -- be patient. Like Lisa again, > I either skip over the 'ontology/soteriology' or look them up and promptly > forget what I've found -- maybe you can explain in simple terms what you > mean by them.) > > (James - glad you're well settled back and I look f/w to reading your > sutta post later) Thanks. Take your time-- or go fast. Your choice. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James 46916 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:10am Subject: Detachment philofillet Hi all A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." Is detachment the cetasika alobha? What is the difference between the cessation (?) that is the 3rd noble truth and detachment? Is it like a fire going out for good as compared to a moment of not adding fuel to the fire? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil 46917 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:28am Subject: Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta and its implications ( 02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kaayaanupassanaa Satipatthaana(Contemplation on the body) Kaaya (body) is body and it is not mind. Anupassanaa = anu (detail, small, minute) and passanaa (seeing) Kaaya.anu.passanaa means 'detailed seeing on body'. There are 14 kinds of detailed seeing on body-derived ruupa or matters. The first section is on breathing. This seeing is not to breathing but to 'ruupa' or material-things derived from body because of breathing. 1. Section on breathing The trainee or practitioner perceives the breathing movements, which are body-derived ruupas. When he attains some degree of calmness and tranquility he will be able to note all the breathing movements. These include movements caused by incoming breath air and movements caused by outgoing breath air. The movements are everywhere through out the breathing apparatus of the physical body and their related body parts(even arms may be moving apart and recoiling). These movements may be movements of nose hairs, friction movement caused by breath air at and around the nose and the mouth, chest expansion and recoil, rising and falling of the abdomen, or even movements of body part apposed to breathing apparatus of the physical body. If the movement noted is chest expansion and recoil the ruupa noted is vayo ruupa or air-element or wind-element and that vayo ruupa or tension, pressure, movement is serving as the object called photthabba-arammana or touch-object. This object is vayo-photthabba and it is pressure touch-object. There is tenseness, fullness, supportiveness when the chest expands and there is relaxation, flatness, rest when the chest recoils back to pre-breathing in position. Likewise rising and falling of the abdomen is also vayo or air- element. The movement in and around the nose and the mouth is subtle and it needs a great energy and calmness to note such subtle movement especially when there is very quiet breathing as compared to very gross movements caused by movement of the chest or the abdomen. However, movement anywhere when breathing can be noted and perceived as ruupa ( vayo-photthabba or pressure-touch-object ). What is important is that the trainee does not need to think any word or idea but just needs to direct to the object of current interest and note it. When well calm, he will be able to recognize that when there is a long breathing in he notes that he takes a long breath. This does not mean just superficial. Because he is under the instructions of the teachings of The Buddha. He just knows that there arise ruupas ( breathing movements ) and there fall away ruupas when he is directing to his breathing. When he breathes out long he knows that he breathes out long noting breating- related movements perceiving again and again as body-derived ruupas. When he breathes in a short breath he knows that he breathes in a short breath perceiving breathing related body-derived ruupas as ruupas. When he breathes out a short breath he also knows that he breathes out a short breath perceiving breathing related body-derived ruupas as ruupas. As he becomes well calm and tranquilised he can feel (know) the whole set of all breathing related body-derived ruupas or movements. That is he feels the movements from the beginning of the breathing in to the end of the breathing in and from the beginning of the breathing out to the end of the breathing out. He practises or trains himself to breathe in feeling all the body-derived breathing movements and to brathe out feeling all the body-derived breathing movements. The trainee just notes on any breathing movements. He does not forces the breathing. He does not slow the breathing. He does not quicken the breathing or he does not influence the breathing. The breathing is happening just naturally. Naturally means uninfluenced by any outside power. So the breathing may be long, or short, rapid or fast, slow, sighing or anything. But as the trainee is training himself to breathe in calming down the process of breathing and he trains himself to breathe out calming down the process of breathing. Again this is an automatic matter and when well calm the breathing already calms down by itself. This well calmness is offspring of the foregoing cultivation. When he trains himself in the above way he himself sees the arising ruupa dhamma ( body-derived breathing movements_vayo) and sees arisen ruupa dhamma each passes away immediately recognising impermanence. This impermanent dhamma is not to be attached and it is not desirable for any reason to cling on and it is just suffering (dukkha). The trainee sees that the arising and passing away of dhamma constantly happens and realizes that there is no one who controls dhamma like this dhamma arises here and that dhamma passes away there and so on. In this way he sees the realities connected with him and perceives them accordingly. At another time he is happy that these dhamma must have happened in others as happens in his body even though they (others) may or may not perceive ruupas individually in their inner self like him (the trainee). Sometimes he perceives that these ruupa dhamma will have been happening both in him and other individuals. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 46918 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Detachment htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hi all A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." Is detachment the cetasika alobha? What is the difference between the cessation (?) that is the 3rd noble truth and detachment? Is it like a fire going out for good as compared to a moment of not adding fuel to the fire? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Phil, Detachment is a 'word'. The third noble truth is to be realised by ariya. Similes are just for consideration or for cintemaya knowledge. No word will explain enough on third noble truth. Detachment and non-attachment are different words. Non-attachment is not attching anything. So alobha is non-attachment. Because it is attaching to none. Alobha cetasika arise with all sobhana citta or beautiful consciousness. When these beautiful consciousness arise they do not attch. Detachment is release of the attached thing. Panna is doing with detachment? This is that before panna arises there is attachment. When it arise there is no attachment at all. The attachment is already detached. So panna is doing with detachment because it release 'the already attached thing. I believe they arise together but right understanding and non- attachment. Not detachment. Anyway words are words and without proper following the Path argumentation on words bring nothing. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46919 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:55am Subject: three trainings, Howard nilovg Hi Howard, Lodewijk says that what you say is very fundamental and he likes to think over quietly for a few more days what he will add. Nina. 46920 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > KenH & all, > (Joop - no it wasn't my reply to your qus -- be patient. Like Lisa again, > I either skip over the 'ontology/soteriology' or look them up and promptly > forget what I've found -- maybe you can explain in simple terms what you > mean by them.) Hallo Sarah About ontology versus soteriology. First step: Nyanaponika: Abhidhamma Studies Printed book (Third edition): page 19/20; ebook: page 36/37: "Phenomenology deals, as th ename implies with 'phenomena', that is, with the world of internal and external experience. Ontology, or metaphysics, inquires into the existence and nature of an essence, or ultimate principle, underlying the phenomenal world. … The Abhidhamma doubtlessly belongs to the first of these two divisionsm that is, to phenomenology." (Bhikkhu Bodhi BTW reverses in his 'Introduction' to this book these words; I think he's an ontologist. In page XVI first changes the 'doubtleely of Nyanaponika into 'rather' and then changes a little bit the meaning of the term 'ontolog' and concludes that "the abhidhamma is built upon an ontological vision.") Second step: I'm stating: everything the Buddha said, was not only meant phenomenological but even had primary an soteriological aim, was to liberate the hearer of His Teaching on that moment. Even 'the silence of the Buddha' had that same aim. Metta Joop 46921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sutta nilovg Hi James, Thanks very much for your excellent summary of the Lion's roar and your personal remarks about it. Very good. Have a pleasant summer vacation, Nina. op 23-06-2005 14:44 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Anyway, I promised you that I would write a bit about the sutta I > picked for Tep's challenge, DN8 "The Great Lion's Roar". 46922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Any Kind .to Htoo and Phil nilovg Dear Htoo, we find this expression often in the suttas and the Commentaries explain: not me: not clinging with conceit. not mine: not clinging with lobha (without wrong view or conceit), not myself, not clinging with wrong view. Thus, we may cling with conceit (no wrong view involved), with lobha alone, or with wrong view, di.t.thi. Alobha can be translated as non-attachment or as detachment. In English it is about the same. But, as you say, we should not attach too much to words. The main thing is understanding characteristics when they appear. Nina. op 23-06-2005 11:36 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Bhikkhu Samahita: > > This is thus 'Not Me', 'Not Mine', 'Not My Self'... > --------------------------------- > Htoo: He may be saying for 'anatta'. 46923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment, Phil nilovg Hi Phil, op 23-06-2005 17:10 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with > detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." > > Is detachment the cetasika alobha? N: Yes. We are usually full of lobha, so alobha is rare. Alobha, as Htoo also explained, arises with each sobhana citta. It has many degrees. When understanding develops it sees more clearly what it actually is we are so much taken in by: only fleeting namas and rupas. Understanding leads to a growing detachment. Ph: What is the difference between the cessation (?) that is the 3rd > noble truth and detachment? N: The third noble Truth is nibbana. The cessation of dukkha. The person who realizes it has developed insight that leads to more and more detachment from conditioned realities. Nina. 46924 From: "frank" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:31pm Subject: RE: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) dhamma_service Hi Sarah and Nina, I'm content with most words, such as the definition for "craving", to accept that there are differing degrees, different contexts and different nuances to justify having many synonyms. However, "avijja" being the whole key to breaking the 12 links, has special importance and that's why I'm curious why avijja wasn't good enough for the 3 defilements, since we're talking about something very fundamental, i.e. the lack of seeing impermanence, dukkha, anatta. Why would that have different contexts? I can maybe see difference of degree, but enough to justify using another word (moha) instead of avijja? I really don't get much usefulness out of this kind of definition: "Delusion (moha) is by deluding. Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of confusing. " Avijja is by not vijja'ing. Not helpful is by not being of help. I don't understand is by way of my not understanding. Circular runabout is by way of circling and running about circularly. Sarah, what was the answer you received in Bkk (Bangkok?)? And were you satisfied with the answer? I'll probably just let the matter drop and wait for experiential evidence to reveal whether there is any reason or significance to using both terms avijja and moha. But it probably wouldn't hurt to run it by Pali list to see what turns up, since I'm feeling a lack of satisfaction by way of not being satisfied. -fk 46925 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Thanks very much for your excellent summary of the Lion's roar and your > personal remarks about it. Very good. > Have a pleasant summer vacation, > Nina. Thanks Nina. Glad you enjoyed it. I hope you have a pleasant summer also. Metta, James 46926 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] three trainings, Howard upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/23/05 1:56:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Lodewijk says that what you say is very fundamental and he likes to think over quietly for a few more days what he will add. Nina ========================= Certainly. I greatly respect Lodewijk's serious approach to the Dhamma. He should take all the time he wishes. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46927 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra ksheri3 Good Morning Joop, Very quickly with the question that has stopped me from continuing reading this message: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > I think the emptiness of the Heart Sutra is different from nothingness. colette: I don't know either sutra...YET. > The emptiness of the Heart Sutra has to do with the ungraspable nature > of dhammas. colette: this is what captured me here and how you've objectified the dhammas, maybe I used the wrong word objectify, I'm getting at is the "mind consciousness" through experience we are able to use words to represent things as well as states of consciousness, mind, yet you have used the term "ungraspable" (graspable) in that it could be a tangible object. In this unfortunate state we use terms to convey concepts but grasping or non-grasping is such a worthless terminology. As you can see I've spent too many nights reading Jaq. Derrida and how he expressed the non-existance of "the table" on the stage of life. I do not feel that the terminology of buddhism for "emptiness" Sunyata or Shunyata, is even in the same league as the terminology "grasp" "ungrasp" etc. I don't know how to express myself clearly enough since now my mind is getting into "roots" & "rootless", causation, origination. At least I hope I expressed my difficulty with what little you said in continuing with your message! toodles, colette It is a characteristic of dhammas rather than an absence of > dhammas. 46928 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 229 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (c) ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > Moha is a "folly", it is "blindness", because whenever there is > moha, there is "unwise attention" to the object which is experienced. > For example, when we eat delicious food, attachment is bound to > arise and then there is also moha. colette: is fetter a better word than "bound" or is attached better than bound? The food may be delicious and it's memory has been imprinted upon us however being bound implies there is no escape, no choice, alternative, see the former Soviet economic structure in that they lacked substitutes for the desired objects therefore they were bound to the limitations of resources thus shortages, yet after eating the delicious food attachment arises in our consciousness because we associate the characteristic of deliciousness to the food. The food is bound to the characteristic deliciousness we are not bound to the food ran out of time. sorry. toodles, colette We are at that moment enslaved > to the object which is experienced and we do not know that there > is unwise attention. Moha does not know akusala as akusala and > kusala as kusala and it does not know the conditions for their > arising. > > If one has not studied the Dhamma one does not know > that whether akusala citta arises or not depends on the manner of > attention to the object and not on the pleasant or unpleasant > objects themselves. Thus, the citta is the source of kusala or > akusala, not the objects which are experienced, not the outward > circumstances. We desire pleasant objects and when the object is > unpleasant we are disappointed and sad. > > If one has not studied the Dhamma there is ignorance of kamma and vipåka. > When one suffers pain one does not realize that the unpleasant experience > through the bodysense is vipåka, that it is the result of a bad deed > which has been committed. > ***** > [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 46929 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran ksheri3 Hi Sarah, boy did I get lucky to get a few extra minutes today. Now wait a minute, I refered to Phil in the sense that "if he rants then I am just as guilty" I have a thing for the term rant -- it goes so well with the rave. ;)) As for babbling I've been known to do that as well especially when I'm flying about the astral and have my magik wand in my butt pack, my bottle of Stoli and a glass in my hands, absolutely fabulous. Never saw that show though. I know the sutta I'll let ya hear it tomorrow. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > (Colette - Phil just gently babbles rather than 'rants'....when it's late > there's a danger I might rant...will get back to you when I have time too. > A great choice of bed-time reading. Any favourite sutta?). > 46930 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: Memories egberdina Hi Joop, > > > > Just as an addendum to my previous post. Is the following text > > available on line anywhere? > > > > The Omission of Memory in the Theravadin List of Dhammas: On the > > Nature of Sanna by Nyanaponika Thera > > > > Hallo Herman, > > Yes, and complete! > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf > > The appendix about 'memory'can be found on page 111 of this ebook > which I like very much and not only because Nyanaponika is critical > on ontology > > Another, not explicit buddhistic, remark on 'memory' > What I understand from scienmtific (neuroscience, psychology) > research on memory, the metaphore that the brain is a kind of hard > disk, is not good at all. > Memory hardly exists in the brain on such a permanent way, every > moment again it is refreshed and restructured, influenced by new > experiences. When I think I remember something from my youth, I in > fact remember a memory of some years ago from a memory ten years ago > etc. from what happened in my youth. > Thank you very much for the above. I agree with your observation about memory. Memory is very much shaped and reshaped in a dependent origination kind-of-way. Kind Regards Herman 46931 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! Evan_Stamato... Htoo, I would urge you to rethink the interpretation you have put on the word disillusion. The definition of this word (from the Oxford dictionary) is: "disappointment from discovering that something is not as good as one believed it to be". Revulsion leads to disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion which eventually leads to nibbana. The definition you give is better translated as the opposite of delusion which I guess is equivalent to the removal of delusion, or nibbana. Kind Regards, Evan Htoo: I think this is the heading of the poem. Revulsion means 'plucking' 'strong pulling away' 'strong drawing away' 'utter distaste'. Disillusion = Dis + illusion Illusion = false interpretation of the real image There is a rope. A man sees it as a snake. There is an image. The man sees that image. But his interpretation is not as a rope (real) but as a snake (illusion or false-interpretation) Disillusion may means 'the opposite of illusion' or may be 'removal of illusion'. Notice: This email and any attachments are confidential and may contain privileged or confidential information and or copyright material of Product Lifecycle Management Services Pty Limited or third parties. Copying, distributing, disclosing, commercialising or otherwise acting in reliance on this email and any attachments is strictly prohibited unless you are the addressee of this email and have written permission to do so. If you have received this email in error please delete this email (including any copies and attachments) and contact Product Lifecycle Management Services Pty Limited by return email or by telephone on 613 9835 5400. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of or be a commitment by the organisation, except where the individual sender has the authority and expressly states them to be so. Whilst we have taken all reasonable care to ensure that neither our system, this email nor any attachments has a virus, it is impossible to guard against every possible virus. We advise you to scan the email and any attachments with your anti virus software prior to use. We do not accept liability for any loss or damage which may arise from receipt of this email or any attachments. 46932 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra lbidd2 Hi Joop, The way I see it (theoretically) jhana is a gradual, step by step journey to a full stop. Rupa jhana progresses by letting go of jhana factors (elements of experience) and arupa jhana progresses even further by letting go of the background fabric of experience (space, consciousness, nothingness, and neither-perception-nor-non-perception). There is some vagueness in the Visuddhimagga whether these four layers of the background fabric are concept or reality. The main idea though is that this is a journey to zero by a very clear and precise jhana citta. "Nothingness" probably only makes sense in context. Consciousness drops away and there is nothingness. But then even that nothingness drops away. Words are really inadequate here. Emptiness, on the other hand, is not an attainment or subtle level of experience. It is the nature of anything. No one says so, but we could say it is practically the same as anatta. There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you glimpse emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is. Larry 46933 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Joop) - In a message dated 6/23/05 7:49:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you glimpse emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is. ======================= This is interesting, Larry. Is it possible for you to say a bit more along these lines? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46934 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra lbidd2 Hi Howard, L: "There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you glimpse emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is." ======================= H: "This is interesting, Larry. Is it possible for you to say a bit more along these lines?" Larry: You mean about the commentaries??? Ugh! As for the glimpse, it has something to do with letting go (tentatively) of sense of self. Then, for some reason, everything looks slightly fragmentary rather than whole. Then thick, creamy ignorance creeps back and glues everything together again. But that's just me. It's nice, but not a big deal. A path consciousness would make a definitive difference. Larry 46935 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:49pm Subject: We don't realize how packed our experience is (was re emptiness in Abhidhamma) philofillet Hi Larry and all Larry: We don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is. I think this sentence gets at a very important point -so important that I thought I would give it a thread of its own. Really, this is the perfect description of our ignorance in daily life. But I wouldn't say "usually", I would say "always" and leave the rest to extraordinarily rare moments of insight. And "packed" is helpful. At first, when we see a bucket full of wet sand we might think of the sand as one solid matter, but when we think of it we know that there are millions (or whatever) grains of sand. And the same goes for what we are experiencing. We think that seeing is continuous, but there are moments of seeing, and thinking, and moments of hearing or other sense door cittas between the moments of seeing, or who knows what else, and then there is more and more and more thinking about what we *think* we are seeing. I only know this from the Buddha's teaching, not from experience, but it's a start. Knowing how ignorant we are is a start. I feel good and confident about that these days. Metta, Phil p.s There is a funny thing in one of the recorded talks. I don't know if it happened when I was recording it, or what, but Sarah and others are talking about how sati might arise between all these countless moments of moha, and there is a skip so Sarah says "mo-mo- mo-ha sati mo-mo-moha sati." I'm thinking of laying it down to a drum machine beat and making the first Abhidhamma hiphop hit out of it. 46936 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:31pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 230 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] If we study the Buddha’s teachings we become less ignorant of realities, we begin to have more understanding of kamma and vipåka, of kusala and akusala, of ultimate realities. However, moha cannot be eradicated merely by thinking about realities. It can eventually be eradicated by the wisdom which knows the true nature of realities. Although we have learnt what is kusala and what is akusala, there are more often akusala cittas than kusala cittas. When we eat delicious food, how often is there wise attention to the object? We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Threes, Chapter XIII, §121) that the Buddha spoke about two kinds of monks who receive almsfood. We read about a certain monk who has eaten the almsfood: * "Now it occurs to him: A good thing in sooth for me to be thus served by a housefather or a housefather’s son! Then he thinks: I should indeed be glad to have this housefather or housefather’s son serve me in like manner in the future. Thus he enjoys that almsgiving and is attracted by it, infatuated with it, attached to it. He sees not danger therein. He is blind to the escape therefrom. The result is that his train of thought is sensual, malevolent and harmful to others. Now, monks, I declare that what is given to such a monk has no great fruit. Why so? Because the monk lives amiss." * We then read about a certain monk who is not attached to his almsfood. What is given to him is of great fruit because he is vigilant. If there is mindfulness of the reality which appears, also while eating, right understanding can be developed. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46937 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Dear Joop, I doubt you’ll like my comments anymore than before, but you’ve asked for them:) --- Joop wrote: > (1) CAN DE LIST OF DHAMMAS BE EXTENDED? > Joop (now) I don't discuss about the authority of the 'commentaries' > because I promised myself to be careful in posting again a week ago. > But about the difference some words. Motto: > "There is no reason why the Abhidhamma philosophy of the Southern or > Theravada tradition should stagnate today or why its further > development should not beresumed." > (Nyanaponika Thera, Preface to 'Abhidhamma Studies') .... S: I’ve just looked at N’s preface in full. I agree with it in part. I have difficulty when the Abhidhamma is described as a philosophy or theory in an abstract sense with an implication that it can be renovated and improved with the assistance of modern philosophical thought. .... > > Three examples: > (a) In the Dhamma-Sangani 56 'states of consciousness' are listed, > followed by "Now these - or whatever incorporeal, causally induced > states …"The translator C.A.F. Rhys Davids informs us that "Nine > other staes, according to the Cy, are here implied as factors in this > psychosis, viz. desire, … resolve, …attention, …equanimity,…, pity, … > sympathy, … abstinence…" (p 4/5) > This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. .... S: I don’t think so. See posts under ‘Dhammasangani’ in U.P. As a separate thread, I’m happy to go into these topic again in detail. Take a look and tell me if you’re still not satisfied. .... > (b) One of the Rupas in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is heart-base > (hadayavatthu) In the list of rupas in the Dhamma-Sangani this base > doesn't occur! I have read BB's defense that it occurs in a very > vague way in the Patthana (CMA, p 144/145) but I think most scholars > agree that's hadayavatthu is a real addition to the list of rupas. .... S: Again, I don’t think so. Please check again under ‘hadayavatthu’ or ‘heart’ in U.P. and tell me if you’d like to discuss it further and exactly what you disagree with there. .... > (c) My 'social citta' > Joop (now): yes, even babies, that's a 'proof' that it's > not 'thinking' because babies (for exemple according Piaget) cannot > think in this way. .... S: The way that citta ‘thinks’ or cognizes, accompanied by sanna which marks and remembers the object, vitakka which directs the object and so on, is completely different from the conceptual kind of thinking which Piaget and psychologists refer to. In the Dhamma sense, there is thinking with attachment right from the very start. There is marking and remembering of the senses and a baby soon ‘knows’ which sights and sounds it likes. This is not abstract, philosophical thinking, but gradually there is more and more marking and remembering and conceptualizing about what has been experienced, mostly by way of proliferation. .... > > > (3) IS 'ONLY FIVE KHANDHAS' AN EXTREME VIEW? > Tep states that's not the case, but that 'only five khandhas' in a > right view. > Joop: Yes, that right, it's a right view in a soteriological and not > in a ontological way. It's a right view when I contemplate about > myself, when Tep contemplates about himself etc. But not about living > beings in general. ... S: I’m going to avoid the terms – even Nyanaponika and Bodhi don’t agree and they’re much more philosophically inclined than I am. I agree with your later comments that we have to include the aim of liberating ‘the hearer of His Teaching on that moment.’ As I mentioned, I have a real difficulty reading articles which suggest the Abhidhamma is a philosophy or theory in some abstract sense, rather than a description of presently arising dhammas (realities). There is a wealth of good information in the text, but I see little point in trying to apply or discuss the use of Western philosophical terms when it comes to the Dhamma. That’s just my bias. As the passage Ven Samahita (and elaborated on by Htoo) showed, the khandhas refer to any namas or rupas – past, present, future, internal, external, high, low etc etc. In other words, there are no dhammas or realities anywhere other than the 5 khandhas. .... > > Perhaps I can better reformulate my statement: 'only five khandhas' > an extreme view, BUT NOT TOO EXTREME. We had to combine it with > another view (that is my eyes right too): > a suffering being is not a concept; proof: I don't feel compassion > for concepts. I realize this can be seen as a paradox or as a > inconstistency (I am five khandhas but He is not five khandhas); but > that is only the case in a ontological way of thinking > And, as Ven. Nyanaponika Thera has explained, that's not a correct > way (p 19/20). >.... S: If we think and analyse it, there seems to be an irreconcilable paradox. However, when there is compassion for another being, there’s no thought of ‘is it a being or just a set of namas and rupas’? There is just a moment of compassion with being as object. This may be followed by wrong view which takes an erroneous concept of being as an actuality or it may be followed by right view which directly understands a nama or rupa arising subsequently. Test it out! You’ll see that there can be the development of both compassion and right view of realities without any paradox at all. .... > Sarah: So back to your great choice of sutta, Kaccayana gotta Sutta, > it emphasises this right understanding/discernment. When it develops, > the extreme views do not occur to one. Then we learn about conditions > and dependent origination. No self or other selves involved. > Joop: I agree, but I don't say a suffering being has a 'self', I say: > a suffering being is not a 'IT' (cf Martin Buber: I and Thou). ... S: What is actually experienced when you look at another being? As I asked Tep, what is seen? What is heard? What is touched? What is smelt? What is tasted? What is thought about or conceptualized only? Joop, I think you raise sincere and useful questions. I'd particularly like to continue the last part of the discussion about beings to see if we can come to some agreement. Metta, Sarah ======= 46938 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: avijja and moha nilovg Hi Frank, op 23-06-2005 21:31 schreef frank op frank@...: ...However, "avijja" being the whole > key to breaking the 12 links, has special importance and that's why I'm > curious why avijja wasn't good enough for the 3 defilements, since we're > talking about something very fundamental, i.e. the lack of seeing > impermanence, dukkha, anatta. Why would that have different contexts? I can > maybe see difference of degree, but enough to justify using another word > (moha) instead of avijja? -------- The Buddha used different terms for the same reality in order to beautify the teachings and for the sake of those who are capable to be led to enlightenment (neyya). -------- F: I really don't get much usefulness out of this kind of definition: > "Delusion (moha) is by deluding. Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. > Confusion (sammoha) is by way of confusing. " ------- N: I understand what you mean. The Co.usually begins with word derivations and then comes to the deeper meaning. That is why we read: pamoha, sammoha. Pa-moha: the partical pa is a forward motion or it is for emphasis. When such sentences are translated into English it comes over somewhat strange. But then we should read on: Text Vis. Ch XIV, 163: 'Delusion' has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. Pali: moho cittassa andhabhaavalakkha.no, a~n~naa.nalakkha.no vaa. Here the term not-knowing, a~n~naa.na is used. You see the variety of terms. ------------ N: The Tiika explains that blindness of citta is not seeing the nature of dhammas (dhammasabhaava) as they truly are. Unknowing (aññaa.na.m) is the opposite of understanding. Understanding illuminates the object that is experienced, whereas moha darkens it. The Pali term andha used here means blind or dark. Aññaa.na.m reminds us of the contrast with paññaa which illuminates. -------------- Text Vis.: Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. ------------- N: Moha is unable to penetrate the four noble Truths. Its function is to conceal the true nature of the object that is experienced. ****** Thus, when moha is used it is in the context of the three akusala hetus. Lobha, dosa and moha. For the wholesome opposites of them the negation a is used. Whereas in the case of avijjaa, the negation a is used for the unwholesome opposite of ignorance. Avijjaa as the first link of the D.O.: it emphasizes the contrast with vijjaa which should be developed in order to reach the end of the cycle. It serves us as a reminder not to be indolent. The Buddha is called: vijjaa cara.na sampanno; endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct. In Vis. Ch VII, 30, 31, it is explained that there are many kinds included in vijjaa cara.na, and that they are of the highest degree. These are just a few thoughts, Nina. 46939 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > L: "There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining > emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you glimpse > emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We > don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is." > ======================= > H: "This is interesting, Larry. Is it possible for you > to say a bit more along these lines?" > > Larry: You mean about the commentaries??? Ugh! > .... Hallo Htoo, Larry, Howard, Colette, and all Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed the thread "Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra". I have a question about it; repeating parts of the thread: Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in CMA about the immaterial sphere jhanas ("The base of nothingness (akincannayatana)": "The third immaterial attainment has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded aspect of the consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving attention to the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking as its object the concept of non-existence or nothingness (natthibhava- pannatti) in respect of the first immaterial consciousness." (p. 63) What is the "nothingness" of the seventh jhana? Of the two Pali- terms "natthibhava" gives in Google no readable results at all, and "akincannayatana" only texts about the absorption itself or the result of it, but not about the object of it. Nyanatiloka's dictionary does not mention them. Larry: Thanks for your answer. Like Howard I was curious about the Commentaries you talked about. What you said till now is not yet hundred percent an answer to my question: when in the seventh jhana "object the concept of non-existence or nothingness", what is the content of that object? Are there texts the yogi can contemplate before starting the absorption of the jhanas? Colette, if you don't mind: I answer in a seperate message to you, be patient. Metta Joop 46940 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Roots sarahprocter... Good Afternoon, Colette, I’m in Hong Kong, so I expect you’re sleeping and it’ll be Good Morning to you! --- colette wrote: > Good Morning Sarah, > > Wow, we are very close! You have a strong and sensitive aura about > you! ... S: Let’s hope you still sense a good aura after some of my ranting and raving:) ... I was going to comment on this: in my meditations last nite I > recalled someone's mentioning bhavanga consciousness and that > resonted with me in the Abhidhamma since it gives somewhat of an > explanation for a sensation I had continually after I rolled daddy's > Caddy end over end three times in 1978 and was almost dead, luckily > the EMTs brought me back. Below is the shortened definition: ... S: Yes, I’m glad you recovered and have the chance to develop more wisdom in this life. I think it just helps to know that even when we’re fast asleep or knocked unconscious that there are are always cittas following each other in succession from the first moment of life to the next. When there’s no experience through the sense doors or mind door, there are still bhavanga cittas, arising and falling away and conditioning the next citta. (Citta- consciousness or the nama which is chief in experiencing an object, such as seeing, hearing or thinking.0 I read the extract you posted on bhavangas – not sure about the ‘freewill plays its part here’ and ‘one can use one’s freewill at this stage’....Do you have any comments on this? > > S: No. The brain is a concept we have... > > I wouldn't say nama is mind either. Leaving aside nibbana, Nama is > any > > reality which can experience an object. > > colette: okay, I concede that my quick definition didn't make the > grade. I may've been thinking of nana. I got it somewhere here but > not time to locate. ... S: nana or ~naa,na means wisdom, like panna or pa~n~naa. This is a mental factor, a cetasika. Namas are either cittas, cetasikas or nibbana. .... > So 'seeing consciousness' is nama, > > but the visible object which is seen is rupa. Tasting is nama, but > the > > taste itself is rupa. Feeling is nama, but heat and cold are rupas. > > colette: DOOR CONSCIOUSNESSES, correct? .... S: We can say that seeing consciousness experiences visible object through the eye-door, so in this case it is eye door consciousness. Is that what you mean? Really it just means that for seeing to take place, there has to be the impact of the visual data on the eye-base . I could make it more complicated, but I’ll resist for now....:) .... > > S: I think it's easier when we reflect on the Abhidhamma if we put > aside > > our scientific knowledge which has a different purpose and set of > > definitions. In the (Abhi)dhamma, we're looking at what can be > directly > > known. Brain can only be conceptualised, right? > > colette: mind can only be conceptualised, brain is the material, > manifested aspect, the sense organ for lack of a better word. ... S: I think that what we take for the material brain consists of many different rupas or elements which we call ‘brain’. ... > > colette: cool in another esoteric site they used to say that "oh, > it's a colette-ism" so I can understand! ;)) .... S: Ok, I’ll look forward to learning ‘Colette-isms’:). As for ‘Absolutely Fabulous’, I’m sure you’d enjoy the stars a lot! Very funny. Meanwhile I’ll look f/w to your sutta and any points arising from your bedside reading, Ab. Sangaha. Metta, Sarah ===== 46941 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 229 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (c) sarahprocter... Hi Colette, Very happy to see you participating in this series with a good comment too: --- colette wrote: > > Moha is a "folly", it is "blindness", because whenever there is > > moha, there is "unwise attention" to the object which is > experienced. > > > > For example, when we eat delicious food, attachment is bound to > > arise and then there is also moha. > > colette: is fetter a better word than "bound" or is attached better > than bound? The food may be delicious and it's memory has been > imprinted upon us however being bound implies there is no escape, no > choice, alternative, .... S: I think that what it means is that given that we have so much attachment arising in a day, it's inevitable that when we taste delicious food that it will occur. Perhaps instead of 'bound' we could say 'very likely'. Given xyz conditions, there is most likely going to be attachment. This doesn't mean at all that there's no escape, but the escape route has to be patiently dug out through the development of satipatthana. Recognizing even theoretically how often attachment arises in a day, even now as we speak for instance, helps us to see that there cannot be an instant escape from it. .... > see the former Soviet economic structure in that > they lacked substitutes for the desired objects therefore they were > bound to the limitations of resources thus shortages, ... S: I think this is a slightly different use of 'bound'. Above is like, 'if you go out in the rain without an umbrella, you're bound to get wet'. ... >yet after > eating the delicious food attachment arises in our consciousness > because we associate the characteristic of deliciousness to the food. > The food is bound to the characteristic deliciousness we are not > bound to the food ... S: This reminds me of my discussion with Larry about whether the attachment arises instantly to the taste or only because of the associations. I'd say both. With the development of awareness and 'guarding' of the sense doors, I agree with you, less being bound to the food and any other objects experienced. Good point. Look f/w to more. Metta, Sarah ====== 46942 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind .to Htoo and Phil htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > we find this expression often in the suttas and the Commentaries explain: > not me: not clinging with conceit. > not mine: not clinging with lobha (without wrong view or conceit), > not myself, not clinging with wrong view. > Thus, we may cling with conceit (no wrong view involved), with lobha alone, > or with wrong view, di.t.thi. > Alobha can be translated as non-attachment or as detachment. In English it > is about the same. But, as you say, we should not attach too much to words. > The main thing is understanding characteristics when they appear. > Nina. > op 23-06-2005 11:36 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Bhikkhu Samahita: > > > > This is thus 'Not Me', 'Not Mine', 'Not My Self'... > > --------------------------------- > > Htoo: He may be saying for 'anatta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your message. Once I read Rob M ebook at file section. It is very good ebook. From that book I got some knowledge. It is that 'I, me, my, mine, myself'. Rob M clearly explains these. But I forgot them again and again. Now you bring them up again. It is nice to read these messages. There is a short saying that I usually cite. It is 'tanha, maana, ditthi'. These are papanca-dhamma. Now you explain these. That is good. So I have to invent another 'English saying' as 'mine, me, myself'. That is 'tanha, maana, ditthi' 'mine, me, myself'. Mine = clinging with lobha Me = clinging with maana Myself + clinging with ditthi 'Tanhaa, maana, ditthi' 'Mine, me, myself'. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu. With respect, Htoo Naing 46943 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Htoo at one point), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > L: Actually it's Nina's fault. She once said she didn't like to call a > consciousness a 'subject'. I agree. I don't like it either. It makes > consciousness seem like a do-er in the sense of a cogniz-er. Hence, my > attempt to render citta process as dependent arising rather than as a > subject/object encounter. If you guys insist on a subject/object dualism > my argument has a lot less sparkle. ... S: We don’t need to think of or refer to a ‘subject’, but it’s important to understand that cittas experience or cognize objects and that namas are quite different from rupas which can never experience anything. See CMA111, #18ff with regard to cittas and objects. It’s the same in the suttas.: Seeing, form, eye-base etc. .... S: <..> >While we > continue to ignorantly find it desirable, the desire will continue to > arise." > > L: Good example. This is another way that ignorance functions. My > example was that ignorance experiences dhammas as an undifferentiated > whole, while wisdom (pañña) experiences the details of the _seeming_ > whole. .... S: I think we’re getting to an important point here, Larry. When either ignorance or wisdom arise with a citta, they experience exactly the same object as the citta. So, for example, if the (javana) cittas experience visible object (a paramattha dhamma),the accompanying ignorance will experience it too, but not knowing anything about it, because it’s ‘blind’. Similarly, if wisdom arises with the cittas, it will also experience the same visible object as the cittas, but with ‘vision’. Of course, most the time whether dhammas or concepts are the objects of cittas, they are cittas rooted in ignorance and attachment, rather than in any kind of wisdom that are arising. .... >I agree with you, "ignorance ignores the truth". What is > desirable (inherently?) is not truly desirable (ultimately). Given that > there are only two kinds of dhamma, concepts and realities, it makes > sense to me to say that error is necessarily conceptual and what we > actually desire is the error. We desire water when we see the light of a > mirage. ... S: If you mean that ignorance leads to more desire, then I agree. .... >I will concede that in a subject/object formulation we could say > the object of desire here is the reality of light misinterpreted as > water. The important point is that all of our desires and aversions are > desires and aversions toward mere concepts. .... S: Are we in the desert? Also desire for relief from the discomfort of thirst. I can only stress again, as in the sutta I quoted, that desire and aversion can be to anything. I have to go out in a minute...but I’m sure you can find the detail in CMA or Htoo may be able to help further. .... > > Possibly more accurately, we could say desire doesn't desire anything, > hate doesn't hate anything. Desire simply _is_ desire, a dhamma that > arises due to an object condition. ... S: There can’t be a citta or cetasika arising without an object. ... >My idea that satipatthana can't > figure out what desire desires comes from the idea that satipatthana > only sees what arises ("the body in the body"). ... S: Through satipatthana, it becomes obvious that while we think we desire ice-creams and friends, what the desire is really for are merely the khandhas and the concepts about them. So there is desire for taste or pleasant feeling and thoughts of tastes and feelings, for example. ... >It requires speculative > reasoning to guess what conditioned that arising. Most of the time we > don't have the foggiest notion of what we want. ... S: I agree with this....lots of speculation and ignorance for sure. Metta, Sarah p.s too rushed to check...pick me up on any points if you like. ======= 46944 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: anatta discussions and my father. egberdina Dear Nina, Your father sounds like he would have been a marvelous man to have a discussion with. Your father has a personal history, you have a personal history of the relationship you have had with him. It colours your life. There are things that are your father, there are things that are not your father. He was in Buchenwald, not Sandokan. The memory of your father is very real, although it changes. That it changes is beyond doubt, but it is not a reason to say your father didn't exist. What gave rise to the idea of your father? Let's talk about rivers instead. A river is never the same. Always different. The water in it is never the same. It may be running quick, it may be running slow, but no matter how different it is from time to time, your foot always gets wet when you step in it. Experience is always specific, and concepts are always general, but because concepts point to experiences that are not identical from one moment to another does not mean that what the concept refers to has no underlying reality. Specific experiences are aggregated into concepts. It just happens. No need for participation or intervention. While eating a bowl of soup, you may taste chicken, vegetables, salt, water in any order, it is still just chicken soup. It is not a definition of chicken soup that the salt must be tasted before the chicken but after the vegetables, or any other combination. It is not a definition of Nina or Lodewijk that the sequences of perception that give rise to the concept must must be experienced identically each time. I agree completely with you about gain and loss in a lifetime. There is none. It is just a coming and going. I regret to say it, because I know many here respect her deeply, but I do not find any reason to respect Kh Sujin. What were you in a previous life? Unless you remember something specific or even general, best not to speculate and have faith in your own speculation, I would say. Is seeing Lodewijk? Is hearing Lodewijk? Of course not. Lodewijk is the countless different ways in which different senses are aggregated and still come up with Lodewijk. As long as you know the difference between Lodewijk and your neighbour, there's hope for you, Nina :-) And as long as Kh Sujin adresses you as Nina and not Jon, she is just talking (to you). Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > op 19-06-2005 13:06 schreef Egbert op hhofman@b...: > > > > I am sorry to hear about the loss of your father. > N: You are very kind. Inspite of all the problems we had for the last > fifteen years our lives were so closely tied to his life, we miss him very > much. We miss playing music for him and the dog, but now we still play the > same pieces and think of him. I also read his letters written during his > four years of being hostage (one year Buchenwald) during the German > occupation and many things of his character and behaviour we understand > better. I am reading his memoires, he was a pioneer in many fields. > When we saw his body it was so different from a body that is alive and > conditioned by kamma, citta and nutrition. A corpse is only rupas > conditioned by temperature. > It is helpful to understand momentary death, even now one citta falls away > and then it conditions the next citta: birth of a new citta. > I can understand that your discussions about emptiness were emotionally too > much for your son. > Your son is no longer the same as when he was a baby, and even today he is > different from yesterday: different feelings, memories. > ---------- > H: Anyway, I am sure that Howard (who doesn't believe there is a Howard) > > will understand that if there is no Nina or Lodewijk or Howard, there > > certainly is no Teacher of Abhidhamma. > ---------- > N: I think that Phil and Tep explained very well that anatta is not in > contradiction with social life, with the Brahmaviharas. These can be > practised with less selfishness. > > What Phil was alluding at was what Kh Sujin said to me: what were you before > this life? Another being. And then you came into this world, you parted from > what you had in your previous life. In this life you receive everything and > then you have to leave again. In fact we do not lose anything. There is a > coming and going. > She also asked me: is seeing Lodewijk? Is hearing Lodewijk? We cannot say > so. She wanted to demonstrate the momentariness of citta. > Intellectually we can understand the Dhamma, but so long as insight has not > been developed and there is no direct understanding, anatta is hard to > accept with one's whole heart, also emotionally. Our defilements are in the > way, especially ignorance and wrong view we accumulated for aeons. > Nina. 46945 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! htootintnaing Dear Evan, Thank you very much. Even though the original poster is not here participating in discussion we are at least considering on dhamma, that he posted. We must thank him, Bhikkhu Samahita. I checked again in Cambridge Learner's Dictionary. As usual I will reply below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan wrote: Htoo, I would urge you to rethink the interpretation you have put on the word disillusion. The definition of this word (from the Oxford dictionary) is: "disappointment from discovering that something is not as good as one believed it to be". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cambridge Learner's Dictionary says Disillusion: (transitive verb) : To cause someone to discover that something they believed is not true. Disillusionment: Noun (uncountable) : 'The disappointment someone feels when they discover something is not as good as they thought it was. So I divided 'disillusion' as Dis + illusion. And I explained 'illusion'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan: Revulsion leads to disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion which eventually leads to nibbana. The definition you give is better translated as the opposite of delusion which I guess is equivalent to the removal of delusion, or nibbana. Kind Regards, Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thank you very much Evan for your kind comments. Htoo Naing 46946 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > L: "There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining > > emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you > glimpse > > emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We > > don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is." > > ======================= > > H: "This is interesting, Larry. Is it possible for you > > to say a bit more along these lines?" > > > > Larry: You mean about the commentaries??? Ugh! > > > .... > > Hallo Htoo, Larry, Howard, Colette, and all > > Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed the thread "Emptiness in > Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra". I have a question about it; > repeating parts of the thread: > Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in CMA about the immaterial sphere jhanas > ("The base of nothingness (akincannayatana)": "The third immaterial > attainment has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or > secluded aspect of the consciousness pertaining to the base of > infinite space. By giving attention to the absence of that > consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking as its > object the concept of non-existence or nothingness (natthibhava- > pannatti) in respect of the first immaterial consciousness." (p. 63) > What is the "nothingness" of the seventh jhana? Of the two Pali- > terms "natthibhava" gives in Google no readable results at all, > and "akincannayatana" only texts about the absorption itself or the > result of it, but not about the object of it. Nyanatiloka's > dictionary does not mention them. > > Larry: Thanks for your answer. Like Howard I was curious about the > Commentaries you talked about. What you said till now is not yet > hundred percent an answer to my question: when in the seventh > jhana "object the concept of non-existence or nothingness", what is > the content of that object? Are there texts the yogi can contemplate > before starting the absorption of the jhanas? > > Colette, if you don't mind: I answer in a seperate message to you, be > patient. > > Metta > > Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, Sorry to see wrongly quoted. You wrote like this, Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed.. Dear Joop, I never wrote above passage. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46947 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Phil, I respect your wish to wean yourself of the Internet. To me, it means that you are seeing the disadvantage in it. I, too, see a big disadvantage in it. For others, and for myself. When I rejoined dsg last time, I told everyone about the deep depression I was coming out of. Well, guess what, now there is suicidal ideation as well. Turns out it wasn't over yet. There is enough in me to prevent suicide at the moment. I do not think for a moment that by ending my life I will end the misery that surrounds it. I have a wife and children, whose lives will be adversely coloured by such an act. (There's something not quite right about the idea of personal salvation in the midst of others who also suffer) But I tell them what is happening to me. I am what I am, not what I should be. I have tried honestly for many years to find some solace in the dhamma. The only relief I find in the dhamma is the promise of permanent cessation, eventually. In the meantime, I feel like crap. Last week, I finally allowed myself to be talked into taking medication. And you know what, after a few SSRI's I have not felt this good for years. Is it good to feel good? I don't really care, to me it is obvious that the quality of vedana is conditioned by chemicals. Vedana chasing, be damned! I know there are times when you would like it if I and others were good, and just felt the same way you did, and did not question the things you would like to feel comfortable about. I would like it, for me, if I didn't exist, and I would like it for you, if you were able to wean yourself of the Internet to the level you wanted to. (No need to reply. I'm in solidarity with you, brother :-) ) Kind Regards Herman 46948 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Good Morning Joop, > > Very quickly with the question that has stopped me from continuing > reading this message: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > > > I think the emptiness of the Heart Sutra is different from > nothingness. > Hallo Colette As announced, a seperate reaction to one aspect of your message. About "The emptiness of the Heart Sutra has to do with the ungraspable nature of dhammas".I think it was Larry and not me who said that but that doesn't matter. The question was if that 'emptiness' is the same as the 'nothingness' of the seventh jhana. You are right that this is a kind of objectifying: looking from outside to something that in fact only can exist inside us. 'Not-grasping' is perhaps a way to connect inside and outside: let phenomena come from outside to our inside and let them immediate go then again, don't try to attach to them. For the Heart Sutra: see my #46661 Metta Joop 46949 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo sarahprocter... Hi Htoo --- htootintnaing wrote: > >J: Hallo Htoo, Larry, Howard, Colette, and all > > > > Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed the thread "Emptiness in > > Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra". I have a question about it; <...> > Dear Joop, > > Sorry to see wrongly quoted. > > You wrote like this, > > Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed.. > > Dear Joop, I never wrote above passage. ... S: I don't think he was suggesting you had. He is just addressing you and asking you a question, as in: "Htoo, perhaps you haven't followed...". I can see why you misunderstood. You may like to take another look at his post. Metta, Sarah ======== 46950 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > >J: Hallo Htoo, Larry, Howard, Colette, and all > > > > > > Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed the thread "Emptiness in > > > Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra". I have a question about it; > <...> > > Dear Joop, > > > > Sorry to see wrongly quoted. > > > > You wrote like this, > > > > Htoo: Perhaps you haven't followed.. > > > > Dear Joop, I never wrote above passage. > ... > S: I don't think he was suggesting you had. He is just addressing you and > asking you a question, as in: "Htoo, perhaps you haven't followed...". I > can see why you misunderstood. > > You may like to take another look at his post. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I am fine. Thank you. Once Stephen suggested me to read others and compare with Theravada. But I could not taste. I am not for sutra. That is why I am not following. Regarding Joop, I am OK. Whether he is or not, I am quite OK. I think I did not include any wrong in my message to Joop. I did not say any harsh word. With respect, Htoo Naing 46951 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/23/05 10:50:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: L: "There is a vast amount of commentary that goes in to explaining emptiness but that commentary is also empty. I can say when you glimpse emptiness things actually look empty. It's a peculiar experience. We don't realize how tightly packed our experience usually is." ======================= H: "This is interesting, Larry. Is it possible for you to say a bit more along these lines?" Larry: You mean about the commentaries??? Ugh! ------------------------------------ Howard: No, not the commentaries! ;-)) ------------------------------------ As for the glimpse, it has something to do with letting go (tentatively) of sense of self. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes. In my case, it just disappeared - an utterly unexpected and shocking occurrence. ---------------------------------- Then, for some reason, everything looks slightly fragmentary rather than whole. Then thick, creamy ignorance creeps back and glues everything together again. But that's just me. --------------------------------- Howard: My experience was different (or perhaps was interpreted differently or with different words). The term 'fragmentary' doesn't work for me. In my case it was more of a sense of "nothing to hold onto": no center, grasping point, or anchor, and I reacted with a fear that reminds me of the sutta description of one hurtling down a rushing stream desperately trying but failing to grab onto the kusa grass growing out from the river bank. In another sutta, the Buddha recounted how one can proceed with complete equanimity in the midst of the rushing waters, neither sinking nor thrashing about (I forget the exact formulation). But potentially useful events are not handled usefully by those like me who are ill prepared. BTW, you are right about the coming back in of ignorance - I found myself sighing in relief at returning to my prison cell! ;-)) --------------------------------- It's nice, but not a big deal. A path consciousness would make a definitive difference. -------------------------------- Howard: All that I've read would suggest so. Reports describe genuine awakening as tearfully joyful. I had the feeling that had I been better prepared, with a mind better cultivated especially by jhana attainments, the event might have well developed further and more auspiciously, though even as it was it had some useful consequences. In any case, the event is long gone, and craving for a repeat performance would be worse than useless. I'm just plugging along these days, doing my best, and what will be will be. ;-) ---------------------------------- Larry ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46952 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I am fine. Thank you. Once Stephen suggested me to read others and > compare with Theravada. But I could not taste. I am not for sutra. > That is why I am not following. Regarding Joop, I am OK. Whether he > is or not, I am quite OK. I think I did not include any wrong in my > message to Joop. I did not say any harsh word. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo No, not a harsh word. I'm fine too, Htoo: it was a misunderstanding because I made my message to 'nested'. My question to you was and is: was is the meaning of the Pali- term 'natthibhava' used bij Bikkhu Bodhi is his guide to the Abhidhammata Sangaha? Are there text to comtemplate about this ? Metta Joop 46953 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Phil) - Clinical depression is a real physical malfunction, and I believe it calls for medication. In my opinion, based on knowing a variety of folks who have taken SSRI's, so long as you have proper medical guidance so that proper dosage is prescribed of the proper medication, avoiding such items as Paxil (!), it sure makes sense for someone clinically depressed to take medication. Proper medication, when needed, doen't create an unnaturally blissful state, but simply corrects a malfunction, letting you operate normally. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/24/05 6:55:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Last week, I finally allowed myself to be talked into taking medication. And you know what, after a few SSRI's I have not felt this good for years. Is it good to feel good? I don't really care, to me it is obvious that the quality of vedana is conditioned by chemicals. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46954 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra - And a question to Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > > > I am fine. Thank you. Once Stephen suggested me to read others and > > compare with Theravada. But I could not taste. I am not for sutra. > > That is why I am not following. Regarding Joop, I am OK. Whether he > > is or not, I am quite OK. I think I did not include any wrong in my > > message to Joop. I did not say any harsh word. > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > Dear Htoo > > No, not a harsh word. I'm fine too, Htoo: it was a misunderstanding > because I made my message to 'nested'. > My question to you was and is: was is the meaning of the Pali- > term 'natthibhava' used bij Bikkhu Bodhi is his guide to the > Abhidhammata Sangaha? Are there text to comtemplate about this ? > > Metta > > Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, Natthibhavo = natthi + bhavo Natthibhava = natthi + bhava Bhava = 2 or more bhavo or bhavo.s Naro = a man Nara = men Bhavo = existence Bhava = existences Natthi = Na + atthi = not a thing = nothing = none Natthibhavo is 'nothing'. When the absorptive state or jhaana is taking 1st aruupa jhaana kusala citta or simply 1st aruupakusala citta as its object that state is called 2nd arupa jhaana. When that 2nd jhaana citta is dispassioned and then natthibhavo is taken as object. As soon as this happen, 3rd aruupa jhaana citta arises. With Metta, Htoo Naing 46955 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:33am Subject: Downloading the brain to a computer htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Round about 2050, it is said that it will be possible to download human brain to a computer. Ian Pearson said it is possible. But it will be for rich people only at that time. When in 2070 or 2080 it will become for everyone. Htoo Naing 46956 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:27am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? philofillet HI Herman > finally allowed myself to be talked into taking medication. And you > know what, after a few SSRI's I have not felt this good for years. Glad to hear it. Medication is great. A few years back my wife struggled with panic attack syndrome, probably related to childhood issues, and the meds helped so much. Now she's off them, and no signs of trouble. > it good to feel good? I don't really care, to me it is obvious that > the quality of vedana is conditioned by chemicals. Vedana chasing, be > damned! Yes, of course. Feeling miserable when there is an option would be foolish. Middle way. > I know there are times when you would like it if I and others were > good, and just felt the same way you did, and did not question the > things you would like to feel comfortable about. Yes. These episodes don't occur as often as they did, and will probably dwindle in number. For some reason you have always pushed the wrong button with me. Dhamma is my baby bottle at times and you weren't allowing me to suckle in peace, so to speak...So though it's a cliche you've been a good teacher for me in helping me to understand my Dhamma-dependency and the way the dosa I got from your posts stemmed from my attachment, from not having things the way i wanted. > I would like it, for me, if I didn't exist, and I would like it for > you, if you were able to wean yourself of the Internet to the level > you wanted to. Thanks. And I hope you continue to exist - or should I say continue to not-actually-exist! ;) Metta, Phil 46957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise, relinquishing nilovg Hi Tep, Some time ago I wrote only a little on liberality, and you searched for some synonyms of caaga. Meanwhile I read more about it. further on in the Treatise we read about two kinds of relinguishment, pa.tinissagga. 1: the cutting off of defilements when attaining enlightenment. 2. entering into nibbaana. But in the beginning the treatise deals with relinquishment in the way of daana. PED says that paricaaga includes material and spiritual liberality, and also mahaa-daana. Abstaining from akusala is explained in a sutta as mahaa-dana; you give another being the opportunity to live free from harm. This is a way of giving. You can give just thoughtlessly, just thinking of 'tham bun', gaining merit for yourself. Or with an eye on the future, like the Bodhisatta, with the aim to have less defilements. Like when you are typing this treatise, you renounce your own comfort, you renounce selfishness. You do this instead of relaxing with a book or T.V. thus, it is generosity and also a kind of giving up of defilements. A beginning of relinquishing defilements supports the paññaa which can eradicate them completely. And, as Larry said, the typing can also be a kind of bhavanaa. Nina. op 11-06-2005 21:22 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina: I found this interesting: will-to-relinquish a gift belongs to those resolute in giving up(caaga, > pariccaaga).> > Giving up: this would also be the giving up of defilements. 46958 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 0:16pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Let's have a preview of the remaining presentation of the Breathing Treatise (29 more pages to go). Each of the 16 grounds in the Anapanasati is analysed with respect to the foundation of mindfulness, how to contemplate (anupassati) the breaths, the arising of vedana, sanna, etc., and how the faculties (indriya) are combined. The first ground of Tetrad #1 starts in paragraph #194 and the 16th ground (of Tetrad #4) ends in paragraph #597. After that we'll see Section v through Section x, covering paragraphs # 598 to the last paragraph # 612 -- the end of the Breathing Treatise. Following the suggestions of Nina, Sarah and Larry, I am going to present shorter messages and hence it will take longer to finish the series. Now let me back up to the beginning of the first ground (i) of Tetrad # 1 in paragraph 194: (i) 194. How is it that (1) breathing in long, he knows 'I breathe in long', (2) breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'? [Analysis of Knowledge of the Object of Contemplation] 195. (a) He breathes in a long in-breath reckoned by extent. (b) He breathes out a long out-breath reckoned by extent. (c) He breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent. As he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent, zeal arises. (d) Through zeal he breathes in a long in-breath more subtle than before reckoned by extent. (e) Through zeal he breathes out a long out-breath more subtle than before reckoned by extent. (f)Through zeal he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent. As, through zeal, he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out- breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent, gladness arises. (g) Through gladness he breathes in a long in-breath more subtle than before reckoned by extent. (h) Through gladness he breathes out a long out-breath more subtle than before reckoned by extent. (i) Through gladness he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent. As, through gladness, he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out- breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent, his ocgnizance turns away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths, and equanimity is established. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 196. Long in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a body. The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment (foundation), but it is not the mindfulness. [In-breaths and out-breaths taken as particles are a body in the sense of mass, and also the sign arisen in dependence on the normal in-breaths and normal out-breaths is called 'the sign' too. 'The establishment is mindfulness': mindfulness is called 'establishment(foundation)' since , having approached that object, it remains there. 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. "The body is the establishment(foundation)': that body is called the 'establishment(foundation)' since mindfulness, having approached it, remains there. 'But it is not the mindfulness': that body is not called 'mindfulness' (PsA 351 S).] Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates the body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation(Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body is said. Tep's Notes: 1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before}, 3x3 = 9. 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is established, it stays at the object. 3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes anupassana-nana." Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > We begin Section iv today; it is even longer than Section iii, but it is > much better organized. > 46959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta discussions and my father. nilovg Dear Herman, op 24-06-2005 11:57 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > I agree completely with you about gain and loss in a lifetime. There > is none. It is just a coming and going. > > I regret to say it, because I know many here respect her deeply, but I > do not find any reason to respect Kh Sujin. ------ N: She only gave an example to remind me that we cling to concepts of people. But concepts are not denied, they are like shadows of realities. What you write about concepts is correct, and there is no contradiction here. ------- H: Is seeing Lodewijk? Is hearing Lodewijk? Of course not. Lodewijk is > the countless different ways in which different senses are aggregated > and still come up with Lodewijk. As long as you know the difference > between Lodewijk and your neighbour, there's hope for you, Nina :-) --------- N: No problems here. I feel when there are discussions about realities and concepts there may be needless misunderstandings because of words that are used. In that way long debates may draw on. Thanks for writing to me, I do hope you feel better. Nina. 46960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise, relinquishing buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (and Larry) - Thank you for the beautifully-written explanation for 'paricaaga', 'maha- daana', and giving up of defilements('patinissagga'). > Nina: > pa.tinissagga. > 1: the cutting off of defilements when attaining enlightenment. > 2. entering into nibbaana. > ... .. paricaaga includes material and spiritual liberality, and also > mahaa-daana. ... Abstaining from akusala is explained in a sutta as > mahaa-dana; you give another being the opportunity to live free > from harm. This is a way of giving. > > Nina: > Like when you are typing this treatise, you renounce your own comfort, you renounce selfishness. You do this instead of relaxing with a book or T.V. thus, it is generosity and also a kind of giving up of defilements. A beginning of relinquishing defilements supports the paññaa which can eradicate them completely. > And, as Larry said, the typing can also be a kind of bhavanaa. Tep: Your kind encouragement by means of dhamma daana is quite effective -- I am encouraged to continue typing with gladness until the Breathing Treatise is complete! Thank you again. With appreciation and respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Some time ago I wrote only a little on liberality, and you searched for > some synonyms of caaga. > Meanwhile I read more about it. (snipped) > PED says that > You can give just thoughtlessly, just thinking of 'tham bun', gaining merit for yourself. Or with an eye on the future, like the Bodhisatta, with the aim to have less defilements. > Nina. 46961 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, 1.. When you think "tree" and I sense ... (Tree is becoming); 2.. when you say or write TREE to me (TREE is born); 3.. when the sound of "Tree" fades or the written word disappears (TREE is getting old and dieing); 4.. when I stop thinking of the TREE you brought to my mind (TREE is dead); 5.. and then there is a new thing/event that arise because you made me think of TREE (Tree gives rise too ... or is reincarnated as ...); 6.. and when I remember this discussion (TREE is reborn). All are events in the Mind. CharlsD PS: I will finish the rest later. ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 22 June, 2005 12:29 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Charles, Sarah and all, Apology for not trimming. I re-include the old messages for reference. When I read the following 'untrimmed message' I thought that 'I have to say two things'. 1. Event 2. 5 aggregates and DO 1. Event Dear Charles, I do not think 'tree' 'rose' 'a day at work' 'Htoo' 'Sara' 'Charlses' and endless infinite names and 'names of ideas' are events. 'Htoo' never arises and 'Htoo' never falls away. 'Charles' never arises and 'Charles' never falls away. 'Sarah' never arises and never falls away. 'Tree' never arises and never falls away. Likewise 'nama' never arises and 'nama' never falls away. 'Ruupa' never arises and 'ruupa' never falls away. 'What arise and fall away' or 'what that are happening' or 'what happen' are nama and rupa. Even the word 'nama' or 'rupa' cannot arise or fall away. Because 'nama' or 'ruupa' are pannatti. 46962 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, a tricky post for me to interpret quickly! In the Oxford definition then we are to believe that this supposed "good" is something desired or saught after? Thus I go to the prefix of the sentence, beginning, for the unsatisfactory condition of disappointment from discovery. Here I say that discovery is a form of enlightenment, a cessation of sorts, so I have to go back to this supposed "good" and ask if it really is a desirable knowledge? Is disappointment desirable? If it is then it could be a transient condition, dependent upon other conditions and tenses. Here I go to the Wheel of Dhamma, Wheel of Life, and find in the Abhidhamma that at the center of the wheel is the seperations "Past, Present, Future" Now I'm at the future being a desirable condition and knowing that the present will always become the past so the disappointment may actually be the desired condition for the here & now. A first floor cannot be constructed without a foundation? Dependency? Very quickly can we say that the opposite of delusion is hallucination or is that more of a manifestation of the delusion? What I'm getting at is the hallucination the cause or is the delusion the cause, if delusion and hallucination are opposites? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Htoo, > > I would urge you to rethink the interpretation you have put on the word > disillusion. The definition of this word (from the Oxford dictionary) > is: > > "disappointment from discovering that something is not as good as one > believed it to be". > > Revulsion leads to disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion which > eventually leads to nibbana. > > The definition you give is better translated as the opposite of delusion > which I guess is equivalent to the removal of delusion, or nibbana. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > > > Htoo: > > I think this is the heading of the poem. > > Revulsion means 'plucking' 'strong pulling away' 'strong drawing away' > 'utter distaste'. > > Disillusion = Dis + illusion <....> 46963 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran / pajaanaati kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for answering my questions about pajaanaati . ------------------------------------ S: > I think it is our understanding of satipatthana as gained from reading the Tipitaka widely and from developing awareness and understanding that leads to confidence that whatever we're reading, it is about dhammas to be understood. The commentary confirms here that it is the 'particular' characteristics of dhammas that are known, rather than the general sense of moving on etc which is generally known and doesn't lead to any reduction in an idea of self. --------------------- Yes, I agree: there should be no doubt about that sutta, and, if any doubt did arise, it should be removed by the commentaries. But a lot of people continue to rely on the lines about walking (etc.) as proof of a formal vipassana practice taught by the Buddha. I thought the word "pajaanaati" might have presented a new way of discounting that spurious bit of evidence, but I see now that I was chasing a red herring. ----------------- S; > The only proof is in the tasting as someone round here says ------------------ There will be no proof until there has been lot of listening and considering - as someone else round here says. :-) ---------------- S: > (??who??). --------------- I think that has been settled, now - Howard tells us about the proof of the pudding. It wasn't Erik - he used to tell us not to put 'the cart before the horse.' Ken H 46964 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I was asking about the Atthasalini's explanation; > "..the term `mind' (naama) is applied to mental > properties, because `names' once given to them are fixed, or > because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend > the mind unto themselves." ------------------------ S: > It is difficult I find too. <. . .> My best `guess'- Only namas bend (namanti) or experience objects, but namas include nibbana as well which is said `to bend' the mind to it. ------------------------- Thanks, I think that answers my question perfectly. I was reading two reasons where only one was being given. They are called namas because they bend towards objects; except in the case of Nibbana, which bends only in the sense of bending the mind towards itself. ----------------------------------- S: > The term is not used with rupas, The text continues with all sorts of gruesome examples of being molested by cold, heat, thirst and so on in the various hell and ghost planes where it's more obvious:). Let me know if you need more! --------------------------------- I think that's all I need, thank you. I was taking the texts literally when they were being metaphorical. ------------------------ S: > Just checked BB' s translation of the above ref (SN22:79 `Being ): "And why, bhikkhus, do you call it deformed? `It is deformed,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold..heat......flies...mosquitoes, wind, sun and serpents........" BB gives detailed footnotes on p1070 inc. "Spk adds that being `deformed' is the specific characteristic (paccattalakkha.na) of form, which distinguishes it from feeling and the other aggregates.....". ----------------- That 'specific characteristic' is new to me and very interesting. Thanks again. Ken H 46964 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q's from Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I was asking about the Atthasalini's explanation; > "..the term `mind' (naama) is applied to mental > properties, because `names' once given to them are fixed, or > because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend > the mind unto themselves." ------------------------ S: > It is difficult I find too. <. . .> My best `guess'- Only namas bend (namanti) or experience objects, but namas include nibbana as well which is said `to bend' the mind to it. ------------------------- Thanks, I think that answers my question perfectly. I was reading two reasons where only one was being given. They are called namas because they bend towards objects; except in the case of Nibbana, which bends only in the sense of bending the mind towards itself. ----------------------------------- S: > The term is not used with rupas, The text continues with all sorts of gruesome examples of being molested by cold, heat, thirst and so on in the various hell and ghost planes where it's more obvious:). Let me know if you need more! --------------------------------- I think that's all I need, thank you. I was taking the texts literally when they were being metaphorical. ------------------------ S: > Just checked BB' s translation of the above ref (SN22:79 `Being ): "And why, bhikkhus, do you call it deformed? `It is deformed,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold..heat......flies...mosquitoes, wind, sun and serpents........" BB gives detailed footnotes on p1070 inc. "Spk adds that being `deformed' is the specific characteristic (paccattalakkha.na) of form, which distinguishes it from feeling and the other aggregates.....". ----------------- That 'specific characteristic' is new to me and very interesting. Thanks again. Ken H 46965 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re: Memories egberdina Hi Lisa, Christine, Thanks so much for all that word finding. It has made it clear that it isn't very clear :-) Thanks again Herman > For Herman===>Sanna : 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the > third khandha . – I am sure you already know this and much more > too. 46966 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Tep, > > Hi, Herman - > > The second part of your reply is fine with me. The first part, however, > may need a little explanation. > > Herman: > Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that > >no thing is knowable as itself (there is no essence). All things are a > > convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, > > or knowable as themselves. > > > > Is your anatta definition (above) based on the Anattalakkhana Sutta? My definition wasn't directly inspired by the sutta you quote, but I'm pretty sure it means about the same. Form does not control itself, it does not make itself arise, alter or cease. Form is a coming together of many other things, which in turn do not arise, alter or cease at their own behest. Which, of course, doesn't mean that form doesn't exist :-) Kind Regards Herman > > "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend > itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let > this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form > is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] > with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' > > [Repeat for feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness.] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ========= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > Thank you for asking the question. > > > (snipped) > > > > > Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of > > the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and > > predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to > > understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent > > origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) > > things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to > be. > > 46967 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! Evan_Stamato... Good Morning Colette, I think that you have misinterpreted what the object of the disappointment is. The object of the disappointment is not the discovery or enlightment or nibbana - there is nothing disappointing about that. I will quote Bhikkhu Samahita's original post and summarise it to help explain what is meant here: Original translation by Bhikkhu Samahita: Pt1: Any kind of form whatsoever; Any kind of feeling whatsoever; Any kind of perception whatsoever; Any kind of construction whatsoever; Any kind of consciousness whatsoever; Whether past, present or future; Whether internal or external; Whether fair or foul; Whether high or low; Whether far or near; Should be seen & understood as it really is: Pt2: This is transient, impermanent, uncertain & unsafe! This is thus disappointing, frustrating, and painful! This is thus 'Not Me', 'Not Mine', 'Not My Self'... Pt3: Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types of consciousness. Being disgusted such one experiences disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion. By this very disillusion craving is extinguished and the mind is released! Pt4: Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no higher state beyond this... Summary: Pt1: All forms are to be seen and understood as they really are: Pt2: Impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Pt3: Seeing this the noble learner is disgusted by all forms. Being disgusted such a one experiences disappointment with forms which leads to dispassion. By this letting go of craving, the mind is released! Pt4: Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no higher state beyond this... Note: I have used the term form to mean all forms whether internal or external, material or immaterial, etc. Basically, all conditioned things. From the summary above, it can be seen that disgust leads to disappointment which leads to detachment (letting go of craving) which of course leads to nibbana (or is nibbana). As for hallucination, that is a mental construct quite apart from delusion which is a misinterpretation of observed phenomena (not seeing things as they really are). Delusion of course is the cause of our suffering thoughout countless lifetimes within samsara. Hope this clears things up. With Metta, Evan Good Morning Evan, a tricky post for me to interpret quickly! In the Oxford definition then we are to believe that this supposed "good" is something desired or saught after? Thus I go to the prefix of the sentence, beginning, for the unsatisfactory condition of disappointment from discovery. Here I say that discovery is a form of enlightenment, a cessation of sorts, so I have to go back to this supposed "good" and ask if it really is a desirable knowledge? Is disappointment desirable? If it is then it could be a transient condition, dependent upon other conditions and tenses. Here I go to the Wheel of Dhamma, Wheel of Life, and find in the Abhidhamma that at the center of the wheel is the seperations "Past, Present, Future" Now I'm at the future being a desirable condition and knowing that the present will always become the past so the disappointment may actually be the desired condition for the here & now. A first floor cannot be constructed without a foundation? Dependency? Very quickly can we say that the opposite of delusion is hallucination or is that more of a manifestation of the delusion? What I'm getting at is the hallucination the cause or is the delusion the cause, if delusion and hallucination are opposites? toodles, colette 46968 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - Thank you for the reply. Herman: > My definition wasn't directly inspired by the sutta you quote, but I'm > pretty sure it means about the same. Form does not control itself, it > does not make itself arise, alter or cease. Form is a coming together > of many other things, which in turn do not arise, alter or cease at > their own behest. > > Which, of course, doesn't mean that form doesn't exist :-) > Precisely, Herman! It doesn't mean that forms (and other aggregates as well) do not exist. To be concerned whether forms exist would be caused by an extreme view. To be concerned whether forms do not exist would be caused by another extreme view. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > > > Hi, Herman - > > > > The second part of your reply is fine with me. The first part, however, > > may need a little explanation. > > > > Herman: > Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that > > >no thing is knowable as itself (there is no essence). All things are a > > > convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, > > > or knowable as themselves. > > > > > > > Is your anatta definition (above) based on the Anattalakkhana Sutta? > > > > > "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would > not lend > > itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to > form, 'Let > > this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because > form > > is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible > [to say] > > with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be > thus.' > > > > [Repeat for feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness.] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ========= 46969 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Downloading the brain to a computer Evan_Stamato... Dear Htoo, Ian Pearson may say this but I say that this will definitely not happen. Why? 1. History is the greatest proof. There have been so many predictions of what will happen in the future and the vast majority fall way short of the mark. 2. Current computer technology is way too primitive to be able to model the brain to any extent possible to be able to store even one billionth of what the brain can do. 3. Future technologies to be able to do this (like some sort of bio processor) are at a very early stage for them to be of any use in 2050. 4. Our understanding of the brain itself is like an ameoba's understanding of nibbana. We have a long way to go before we could even model the brain in such a way that it could be stored on some other medium. Metta, Evan Dear Dhamma Friends, Round about 2050, it is said that it will be possible to download human brain to a computer. Ian Pearson said it is possible. But it will be for rich people only at that time. When in 2070 or 2080 it will become for everyone. Htoo Naing 46970 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:17pm Subject: Re: Any Kind ... !!! philofillet Hi Evan and all >>> Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types of consciousness. Sorry, I haven't been folowing this thread so forget me if this is redundant, but I'd like to quickly point out just that this "disgusted" (B. Bodhi" uses "revulsion") is not to be understood in a conventional way. As B. Bodhi says in his notes in the SN anthology, it refers to an deeper level of insight than we would think from "revulsion" or "disgust." There is great danger in overestimating our ability to have things work out the way they do in suttas, asap. (Not that you were doing that, Evan. Just wanted to quickly slip that in as I run out the door a la Sarah! ;)[ Also, let's not forget that the "noble learner" in these descriptive passages is at least sotapanna. Metta, Phil 46971 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Base Consisting of Nothingness lbidd2 Hi Joop, Here is what the Visuddhimagga ("Path of Purification") has to say about the Base Consisting of Nothingness (third immaterial jhana): Vism.X,32. When he wants to develop the base consisting of nothingness, he must first achieve mastery in the five ways in the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness. Then he should see the danger in the base consisting of boundless consciousness in this way: 'This attainment has the base consisting of boundless space as its near enemy, and it is not as peaceful as the base consisting of nothingness'. So having ended his attachment to that, he should give his attention to the base consisting of nothingness as peaceful. He should give attention to the [present] non-existence, voidness, secluded aspect, of that same [past] consciousness belonging to the base consisting of boundless space which became the object of [the consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of boundless consciousness. How should he do this? 33. Without giving [further] attention to that consciousness, he should [now] advert again and again in this way, 'there is not, there is not', or 'void, void', or 'secluded, secluded', and give his attention to it, review it, and strike at it with thought and applied thought. 34. As he directs his mind on to that sign thus, the hindrances are suppressed, mindfulness is established, and his mind becomes concentrated in access. He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and repeatedly practises it. As he does so, consciousness belonging to the base consisting of nothingness arises in absorption, making its object the void, secluded, non-existent state of that same [past] exalted consciousness that occurred in pervading the space, just as the [consciousness belonging to the] base consisting of boundless consciousness did the [then past] exalted consciousness that had pervaded the space. And here too the method of explaining the absorption should be understood in the way already described. 35. But there is this difference. Suppose a man sees a community of bhikkhus gathered together in a meeting hall or some such place and then goes elsewhere; then after the bhikkhus have risen at the conclusion of the business for which they had met and have departed, the man comes back, and as he stands in the doorway looking at that place again, he sees it only as void, he sees it only as secluded, he does not think 'So many bhikkhus have died, so any have left the district', but rather he sees only the non-existence thus, 'This is void, secluded'--so too, having formerly dwelt seeing with the jhana eye belonging to the base consisting of boundless consciousness the [earlier] consciousness that had occurred making the space its object, [now] when that consciousness has disappeared owing to his giving attention to the preliminary work in the way beginning 'There is not, there is not', he dwells seeing only its non-existence, in other words, its departedness when this consciousness has arisen in absorption. [Text and Commentary] And at this point it is said: 'By completely surmounting the base consisting of boundless consciousness, [aware that] "There is nothing", he enters upon and dwells in the base consisting of nothingness' (Vbh.245). 37. Herein, 'completely' is as already explained. "By ... surmounting the base consisting of boundless consciousness': here too the jhana is called the 'base consisting of boundless consciousness' in the way already stated, and its object is so-called too. For the object too is 'boundless consciousness' (viññå.nañca"m) in the way already stated, and then, because it is the object of the second immaterial jhana, it is its 'base' in the sense of habitat, as the 'deities' base' is for deities, thus it is the 'base consisting of boundless consciousness'. Likewise it is 'boundless consciousness', and then because it is the cause of the jhana's being of that species, it is its 'base' in the sense of locality of the species, as Kambojå is the 'base' of horses, thus it is the 'base consisting of boundless consciousness' in this way also. So it should be understood that the words 'By ... surmounting the base consisting of boundless consciousness' include both [the jhana and its object] together, since this base consisting of nothingness is to be entered upon and dwelt in precisely by surmounting, by causing the non-occurrence of, by not giving attention to, both jhana and its object. 38. 'There is nothing (natthi kiñci): what is meant is that he gives his attention thus, 'there is not, there is not',or 'void, void', or 'secluded, secluded'. It is said in the Vibha"nga: ' "There is nothing": he makes that same consciousness non-existent, makes it absent, makes it disappear, sees that "there is nothing", hence "there is nothing" is said' (Vbh.262), which is expressed in a way that resembles comprehension [by insight] of liability to destruction, nevertheless the meaning should be understood in the way described above. For the words 'He makes that same consciousness non-existent, makes it absent, makes it disappear' are said of one who does not advert to it or give attention to it or review it, and only gives attention to its non-existence, its voidness, its secludedness; they are not meant in the other way (cf. Ch. XXI,17). 39. 'He enters upon and dwells in the base consisting of nothingness': it has no owning (kiñcana), this it is non-owning (akiñcana); what is meant is that it has not even the mere act of its dissolution remaining. The state (essence) of non-owning is nothingness (åkiñcañña). This is a term for the disappearance of the consciousness belonging to the base consisting of boundless space. That nothingness is the 'base' in the sense of foundation for that jhana, as the 'deities' base' is for deities, thus it is the 'base consisting of nothingness'. The rest is as before. This is the detailed explanation of the base consisting of nothingness as a meditation subject. [END QUOTE] Larry 46972 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, A few snippets: S: "it's important to understand that cittas experience or cognize objects" L: Why? S: "if the (javana) cittas experience visible object (a paramattha dhamma),the accompanying ignorance will experience it too, but not knowing anything about it, because it's 'blind'." L: I wouldn't say "blind" because then there wouldn't be an experience. Instead I would say ignorance is a misinterpretation. S: "There can't be a citta or cetasika arising without an object." L: If a citta arises _as_ an object that citta does not arise with an object. You are so busy maybe we should park this discussion. I believe this is your position (corrections welcome): when like likes blue, blue is seen as permanent. Like likes a seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma. My view is a 'seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma' is a concept. I think it is just a difference of perspective. The important point is that desire and aversion always arise with ignorance and without ignorance nothing is desirable or hate-able. Larry 46973 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness in Abhidhamma and the Heart Sutra lbidd2 Howard: "what will be will be. ;-)" Hi Howard, Que serå serå. You, me, and Doris Day, we all have the same song ;-) Larry 46974 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, > > I doubt you'll like my comments anymore than before, but you've asked for them Hallo Sarah J:> This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. .... S: I don't think so. See posts under `Dhammasangani' in U.P. As a separate thread, I'm happy to go into these topic again in detail. Take a look and tell me if you're still not satisfied. Joop: I took a look, I was and I am satistied; that is: I still think that's possible to add dhammas to the list of the Dhamma Sangani. But better not discuss about this topic further (it's my intention to be more careful than some months ago) so I propose: let's agree tot disagree. The same proposal I have about 'my social citta'; you may be right about what 'thinking' is Abhidhamma was, but I didn't say that" the intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another being" was thinking. Maybe it's not a citta but till now you or others have not given me a good alternative to describe the social dimension of Abhidhamma. S: …. If we think and analyse it, there seems to be an irreconcilable paradox. However, when there is compassion for another being, there's no thought of `is it a being or just a set of namas and rupas'? There is just a moment of compassion with being as object. Joop: Exact, that was what I was saying again and again. S: This may be followed by wrong view which takes an erroneous concept of being as an actuality or it may be followed by right view which directly understands a nama or rupa arising subsequently. Test it out! You'll see that there can be the development of both compassion and right view of realities without any paradox at all. Joop: In the first place: I'm not afraid of paradoxes, in fact I like them. In the second place, when you say "nama or rupa arising", you are talking of the arising of nama and rupa in me, and I knew that already; my statement was that I don't want (for ethical reasons) to reduce that suffering being to an 'It'. S: I'm going to avoid the terms – even Nyanaponika and Bodhi don't agree and they're much more philosophically inclined than I am. Joop: Come on, that's to modest. But Nyanaponika versus Bhkkhu Bodhi was about phenomenology versus ontology. More important is my second step, with the conclusion: we should read all the Teachings of the Buddha (and the Abhidhamma) from the soteriological viewpoint, that is that He wanted to liberate the hearer/reader. So we should not make any non-soteriological interpretation to these teachings; for example not making physics and not making metaphysics from them. And maybe yo're not good in philosophy, soteriology is our core-business in DSG, isn't it? S: What is actually experienced when you look at another being? As I asked Tep, what is seen? What is heard? What is touched? What is smelt? What is tasted? What is thought about or conceptualized only? Joop: It's not possible to give a general answer to that question, it's too much and too mixed. Metta Joop BTW Thanks for your help in the stagnated discussion between Htoo and me; I can imagine very good Htoo's being careful. 46975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Basis for Vijnanavada in the Sutta Pitaka, and Co. nilovg Hi Howard, It may be of interest to see the ancient Co to the Kaa.lakasutta (A.N. II, 23, Book of the Fours, Ch III, § 4). I use part of this text by Wayman and insert. op 23-06-2005 14:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > _________________ > The Kalakarama Sutta. ...whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know. ... that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but > the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. --- Co: na upa.t.thaasi: it did not occur to the Tathagata, the objects experienced through the six doors are not clung to by tanhaa or di.t.thi. ----- Wayman: [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] > If I were to say: 'Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans - > whatsoever is seen ... by the mind - all that I do not know' - it would be a > falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I both know it and know it not' - that too > would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I neither know it nor am > ignorant of it' - it would be a fault in me. ------ Co: The Buddha does not conceive ruupaayatana (the aayatana of visible object) with tanhaa such as the 'many folk' [mahaajana]. N: What is stressed here is that the Buddha does not conceive any object with tanhaa, di.t.thi or maana, conceit. ------ Mr W: [The Buddha now declares how one > uses > the senses while avoiding the 'apprehender' and the 'apprehended'.] Thus, > monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; > he does not conceive of an 'unseen', he does not conceive of a > 'thing-worth-seeing', .... Text: Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all > phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is 'Such'. Moreover, than he who is 'Such', > there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare." > [Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called 'the > fantasy of normalcy'.] -------- Co: Such like, this is the stable person, a term for the arahat. The Co then speaks about the eight worldly conditions of gain and loss etc. The Such like is not affected by these. ------ Text: Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other > folk. > Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, > being 'Such' I hold none as true or false. > This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > whereon humans are hooked, impaled. > > "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" - no such clinging for the Tathagatas. -------- Co: The view of: this alone is true, all else is falsehood. N: recently mentioned in Visuddhimagga studies: ------- Co as to the words "I know, I see", this refers to clinging with tanhaa and di.t.thi by the manyfolk. The Tathagata does not have such conceivings. ------- Mr. W: This scripture clarifies the Buddhist prescription "to see things as they > really are," since it implies that one should simply see without adding > anything..... I have cited this scripture in this > essay > because I do believe that Vasubandhu's popularizing treatises have such a > scriptural source in the background. > ----------------------------- Nina. 46976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. nilovg Hi Tep, thank you very much. I try to add a little to the notes, see below. I would like to review again the words unity and diversity: Unity pertains to the attainment of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana (B.B. ,The root of Existence, Muulapariyaayasutta p. 69). Since jhaana occurs in a single mode on a single object it is called unity. Diversity: refers to the sense sphere dhammas. N: Sense objects are also called paritta, insignificant. As to: established mindfulness in front, parimukha.m: The Co states with regard to long and short inbreathing and outbreathing, the Bhikkhu knows them at the nosetip. N: Thus it is there where they appear. Also in the Visuddhimagga it is said that breath appears at the nosetip or upperlip. op 24-06-2005 21:16 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: ...Mindfulness is both the establishment > (foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and > that knowledge he contemplates the body. Hence 'Development of the > Foundation(Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation > of the body as a body is said. > > Tep's Notes: > > 1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, > equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath > more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle > than before}, 3x3 = 9. > 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- > breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is > established, it stays at the object. ------ N: Note to the text: ------- Tep: 3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. > The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes > anupassana-nana." ------- Note to text (from Co): The contemplation is knowledge: the meanings is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. .. Nina. 46977 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:00am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 231 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Moha is the root of all that is unprofitable, of akusala which is coarse and of akusala which is more subtle. When one commits akusala kamma through body, speech or mind there is moha. There is ignorance of the danger of akusala kamma which is capable of producing an unpleasant result, even in the form of an unhappy rebirth. As we have seen, moha accompanies each akusala citta. When there are akusala cittas with avarice, jealousy or conceit, there is also moha. When one takes realities for self there is wrong view, diììhi, and at that moment there is also moha. Moha conditions diììhi but they are different realities. Moha is ignorant of the true nature of realities and diììhi has wrong view about them. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 46978 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... Phil gazita2002 Hello Phil, I read in an earlier post that you were trying to have less internet time, and if that means less posts from you then I will be a little disappointed. I benefit from [what I perceive to be] your understanding of the Dhamma. There are few posts I read and yours is definitely one. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Evan and all > > >>> Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds > of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types > of consciousness. > > Sorry, I haven't been folowing this thread so forget me if this is > redundant, but I'd like to quickly point out just that > this "disgusted" (B. Bodhi" uses "revulsion") is not to be > understood in a conventional way. As B. Bodhi says in his notes in > the SN anthology, it refers to an deeper level of insight than we > would think from "revulsion" or "disgust." Azita; you know, Phil, I think I'm finally beginning to sense the reality of this. I have often thought that the words 'birth, death, sorrow, lamentation etc' are so severe - bitter medicine as I've heard K.Sujin say. In the past I've convinced myself that its not all 'bitter medicine', there are definitely some fun times to be had :-) As the understanding grows, there seems to be a deeper knowledge that the bitter medicine is actually very good for 'me'. That the good times do occur and they pass on and really not worth getting too hooked on 'cos the good times come and the good times go. Just like the bad times. Today I was thinking about the 5 khandhas, and if these k's are what I take to be 'me' then my friends are just k's too - make good lyrics to a song 'all my friends are K's, doof, doof' The 5 khandhas, the paccaya that prevail at each moment, what is there to hang onto? But lobha does bec thats its characteristic. this is starting to sound like a rave so I stop here, and hope you don't leave off posting, Phil. There is great danger in > overestimating our ability to have things work out the way they do > in suttas, asap. (Not that you were doing that, Evan. Just wanted to > quickly slip that in as I run out the door a la Sarah! ;)[ > > Also, let's not forget that the "noble learner" in these > descriptive passages is at least sotapanna. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: in my case, there is definitly an overestimating of knowledge and wisdom. these days I often have a sense of Mana - conceit - certainly not on a momentary level but on that gross level and then theres more mana cos i've acknowledged its presence. A head full of proliferating garbage!!!!!! :-) patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 46979 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, All - Han Tun's contribution for Section iv, 194 -196, is shown below. Please notice that the in-breaths and out-breaths are the 'body' (kaaya), 'gladness' is 'pamojja' not 'piti', and that the 1st tetrad is known as 'kaaye kaayaa nupassanaa satipatthana bhaavanaa' since the breaths are "body in the body" as stated in DN 22.. Respectfully, Tep --------------------- From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. Message #1098 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/1098 Dear Tep, I have put in some Pali words. 195. (a) He breathes in a long in-breath reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (b) He breathes out a long out-breath reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (c) He breathes in and breathes out long in- breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). As he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate), zeal arises (chando uppajjati). (d) Through zeal (chanda vasena) he breathes in a long in- breath more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (e) Through zeal (chanda vasena) he breathes out a long out-breath more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (f) Through zeal (chanda vasena) he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). As, through zeal (chanda vasena), he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate), gladness arises (pamojjam uppajjati). (g) Through gladness (pamojja vasena) he breathes in a long in-breath more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (h) Through gladness (pamojja vasena) he breathes out a long out-breath more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). (i) Through gladness (pamojja vasena) he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate). As, through gladness (pamojja vasena), he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate), his cognizance turns away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths, and equanimity is established. 196. Long in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a body (kaaya). The establishment (foundation) (upatthaana) is mindfulness (sati). The contemplation is knowledge (nana). The body (kaaya) is the establishment (foundation) (upatthaana), but it is not the mindfulness (sati). [In-breaths and out-breaths taken as particles are a body in the sense of mass, and also the sign arisen in dependence on the normal in- breaths and normal out-breaths is called 'the sign' too. 'The establishment is mindfulness': mindfulness is called 'establishment (foundation)' since, having approached that object, it remains there. 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. "The body is the establishment (foundation)': that body is called the 'establishment (foundation)' since mindfulness, having approached it, remains there.' But it is not the mindfulness': that body is not called 'mindfulness' (PsA 351 S).] Mindfulness (sati) is both the establishment (foundation) (upatthaana) and the mindfulness (sati). By means of that mindfulness (sati) and that knowledge (nana) he contemplates the body (kaaya). Hence 'Development of the Foundation (Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body is said. (kaaye kaayaa nupassanaa satipatthana bhaavanaa) With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ===================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 5:37 am > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise. Section iii, > Part 2 [Message # 997] > > Dear Friend Tep, > > The following is for your kind consideration. > > 59. - 148. [repeat the same five paragraphs for each > of the 18 Principal Insights] .... > [Han: you have not given the names of 18 Principal > Insights. The following Pali names may be inserted > with the English translation taken from your text. I > do not have the English translation.] > 46980 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment, Nina gazita2002 Hello Nina, and Phil, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > op 23-06-2005 17:10 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with > > detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." ....snip.... > Ph: What is the difference between the cessation (?) that is the 3rd > > noble truth and detachment? > N: The third noble Truth is nibbana. The cessation of dukkha. The person who > realizes it has developed insight that leads to more and more detachment > from conditioned realities. > Nina. azita: do you think, Nina, that as understanding of realities develops, one becomes more tolerant of others behaviours? For example, if one understands even on that theoretical level, that all that happens is due to conditions way out of 'our' control, then occasionally tolerance arises instead of intolerance. Maybe it depends on accumulations as well. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 46981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment, Nina nilovg Dear Azita, op 25-06-2005 15:30 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...:> > azita: do you think, Nina, that as understanding of realities > develops, one becomes more tolerant of others behaviours? For > example, if one understands even on that theoretical level, that all > that happens is due to conditions way out of 'our' control, then > occasionally tolerance arises instead of intolerance. > Maybe it depends on accumulations as well. N: It depends on the moments. Each citta is dependent on many different conditions. One day we may be more tolerant, another day not. We are far from having eradicated dosa. Even when we understand conditions, on some days someone else's conduct or speech may be the last drop. It is best to be honest. But certainly understanding helps, if it arises. But how rare it is compared to cittas with ignorance. Nina. 46982 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma dacostacharles Hi All, All this discussion about whether the person exists or not ... relative, really relative ... If their is suffering, birth, sickness, old age, and death -- then the person exists. If you suffer these things then you exist. If any aggregate exists in samsara, then a self exists. When there is no-self, there is no-samsara. So ask yourself, how can there be samsara if there are no-selves, no persons. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 04 June, 2005 23:21 Subject: [dsg] Existence of Persons & Dwelling in the Dhamma Hi, all - Following the Howard's tradition, today I have two valuable suttas to recommend. (1) I remember that we had a discussion lately about existence of beings or persons. There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. <...> 46983 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... Phil philofillet Hi Azita > I read in an earlier post that you were trying to have less > internet time, and if that means less posts from you then I will be a > little disappointed. I benefit from [what I perceive to be] your > understanding of the Dhamma. There are few posts I read and yours is > definitely one. Ph: Thanks for the kind words, Azita. Who knows what will happen. I'm teaching 6 days a week now and starting to work a bit more on my novel and picture book stories, so I guess I'll have less time here. But I'll never make a clean cut like I did before. This group is too important. > > Sorry, I haven't been folowing this thread so forget me if this > is > > redundant, but I'd like to quickly point out just that > > this "disgusted" (B. Bodhi" uses "revulsion") is not to be > > understood in a conventional way. As B. Bodhi says in his notes in > > the SN anthology, it refers to an deeper level of insight than we > > would think from "revulsion" or "disgust." > > Azita; you know, Phil, I think I'm finally beginning to sense the > reality of this. I have often thought that the words 'birth, death, > sorrow, lamentation etc' are so severe - bitter medicine as I've > heard K.Sujin say. In the past I've convinced myself that its not > all 'bitter medicine', there are definitely some fun times to be > had :-) > As the understanding grows, there seems to be a deeper > knowledge that the bitter medicine is actually very good for 'me'. > That the good times do occur and they pass on and really not worth > getting too hooked on 'cos the good times come and the good times go. > Just like the bad times. Ph: I find I've been feeling more distrustful of the good times, find myself aware that they will pass just as the bad times will pass. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy them. Just more "sober", which is a word that I have heard used by a venerable student of A. Sujin. At first I called this feeling "revulsion", but I see that it is not as deep as that. > Today I was thinking about the 5 khandhas, and if these k's > are what I take to be 'me' then my friends are just k's too - make > good lyrics to a song 'all my friends are K's, doof, doof' Ph: I like it! You can have the B side to my hit single 'mo mo moha sati.' Seriously, I remember last winter or autumn I posted wondering why the simile of the khandas as murderous servants is necessary. It seemed like conceptualizing too much and that we could get at a more direct, less abstract understanding of them without bringing in such imagery. But now I understand how helpful it can be at times. The Buddha taught Dhamma to so many people in so many different ways, and we are so many different people, each and every one of us, with different accumulations moment by moment. What is helpful one day won't be the next, and so on. It's so interesting. > The 5 khandhas, the paccaya that prevail at each moment, what > is there to hang onto? I like the way Nina puts it somewhere, we get down to it and find there is so little worth holding on to. I forget the exact words. And the wonderful thing, I think, is that it *doesn't* mean we come to have disgust or revulsion about ourselves, as people. We go through life with friends and family and value them and take care of them, but there is less obstruction to kusala because we are not holding on to regrets, irritations, worries, daydreams as much as we did. There will always be attachment to our loved ones, of course, and pain and sorrow when we part ways. No way around that for us in this lifetime. But there will be moments of liberating understanding as well. And moments of gratitude to the Buddha for sharing his liberating insight with us, to the degree that we are capable of understanding it. I like what A. Sujin says in one talk. She's just laid down a beautiful bit of Pali (attachment!) re conditions, and then says "so there's a lot to learn. But it depends on our ability to experience." We tend to want to stretch that ability, we don't accept our limits. But there is no stretching our ability to experience. We have to accept that if it increases, ever so gradually, it will do so in a way that is beyond our control. Thus the need for p, c and g.c Ooh..you got a little babble out of me there, Azita. > this is starting to sound like a rave so I stop here, and hope you > don't leave off posting, Phil. Ph: I won't. Thanks, Azita. Metta, Phil 46984 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Basis for Vijnanavada in the Sutta Pitaka, and Co. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/25/05 5:42:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, It may be of interest to see the ancient Co to the Kaa.lakasutta (A.N. II, 23, Book of the Fours, Ch III, § 4). I use part of this text by Wayman and insert. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for this. The commentary, however, doesn't strike me as particularly enlightening. There are several points at which I think the commentary is quite possibly off base. I'll add a drop in context below. ------------------------------------ op 23-06-2005 14:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > _________________ > The Kalakarama Sutta. ...whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know. ... that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but > the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. --- Co: na upa.t.thaasi: it did not occur to the Tathagata, the objects experienced through the six doors are not clung to by tanhaa or di.t.thi. -------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps that is the meaning of not having taken a stand on it, but I don't think so. I think there is more to it. To take a stand on it seems to me to suggest adopting a philosophy, a view - particularly an ontology, based on it. ----------------------------------------- ----- Wayman: [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] > If I were to say: 'Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans - > whatsoever is seen ... by the mind - all that I do not know' - it would be a > falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I both know it and know it not' - that too > would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I neither know it nor am > ignorant of it' - it would be a fault in me. ------ Co: The Buddha does not conceive ruupaayatana (the aayatana of visible object) with tanhaa such as the 'many folk' [mahaajana]. --------------------------------------- Howard: That commentary strikes me as clarifying little and as being too restrictive. The line before this quoted material is the following: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans - whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know." And so more is meant than visible object. All the sense are referred to. Moreover, and this is the main point here, this section seems to be emphasizing that the standard systematic 4-way denial of known, not known, both known & not known, and neither known nor not known does not apply: he is strongly asserting that he does know, and that to say otherwise would be falsehood. So, the commentary is missing the crucial point in this section it seems to me. ------------------------------------- N: What is stressed here is that the Buddha does not conceive any object with tanhaa, di.t.thi or maana, conceit. ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think that is what is stressed at all. ------------------------------------------ ------ Mr W: [The Buddha now declares how one > uses > the senses while avoiding the 'apprehender' and the 'apprehended'.] Thus, > monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; > he does not conceive of an 'unseen', he does not conceive of a > 'thing-worth-seeing', .... Text: Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all > phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is 'Such'. Moreover, than he who is 'Such', > there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare." > [Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called 'the > fantasy of normalcy'.] -------- Co: Such like, this is the stable person, a term for the arahat. The Co then speaks about the eight worldly conditions of gain and loss etc. The Such like is not affected by these. ----------------------------------------- Howard: For me, the sense of the text is that the Tathagata countenances the "mere" phenomenal subject and object without reifying either - the seen is just the seen etc, without looking for any underlying substance or essence. (Reminiscent of the Bahiya Sutta.) ---------------------------------------- ------ Text: Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other > folk. > Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, > being 'Such' I hold none as true or false. > This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > whereon humans are hooked, impaled. > > "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" - no such clinging for the Tathagatas. -------- Co: The view of: this alone is true, all else is falsehood. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see exclusiveness of view as being the issue here, but rather the matter of having a view that goes beyond what is directly experienced. --------------------------------------------- N: recently mentioned in Visuddhimagga studies: ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, yes - but nothing to do with this particular sutta. ------------------------------------------ ------- Co as to the words "I know, I see", this refers to clinging with tanhaa and di.t.thi by the manyfolk. The Tathagata does not have such conceivings. ------- Mr. W: This scripture clarifies the Buddhist prescription "to see things as they > really are," since it implies that one should simply see without adding > anything..... I have cited this scripture in this > essay > because I do believe that Vasubandhu's popularizing treatises have such a > scriptural source in the background. > ----------------------------- ------------------------------------------ Howard: I see Dr. Wayman's analysis as more to the point. ---------------------------------------- Nina. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 46985 From: "frank" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:59am Subject: Re: avijja and moha dhamma_service Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification. I understand your original terse explanation better now that I've seen the examples. I love the pali two-for-ones. Vijja, avijja, etc. Learn two pali words for the price of one. I can at least theoretically understand why Buddha would have more than one synonym for avijja, but for the modern learner it adds an element of confusion and doubt when for example one wonders if moha includes something more than avijja. -fk 46986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: avijja and moha nilovg Hi Frank, moha and avijjaa are just darkness. They darken. Nina op 25-06-2005 18:59 schreef frank op frank@...: > it adds an element of > confusion and doubt when for example one wonders if moha includes something > more than avijja. 46987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... Phil nilovg Hi Phil. I am glad about that. We need your feed back. It is helpful. Nina. op 25-06-2005 16:11 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > But I'll never make a clean cut like I did before. This group is too > important. 46988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Basis for Vijnanavada in the Sutta Pitaka, and Co. nilovg Hi Howard, op 25-06-2005 16:59 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: The commentary, however, doesn't strike me as > particularly enlightening. There are several points at which I think the > commentary > is quite possibly off base. I'll add a drop in context below. > ------------------------------------ . ...whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations > arising > from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered > over by the mind - all that do I know. ... that have I fully understood; all > that is known to the Tathagata, but >> the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. > --- Nina: Co: na upa.t.thaasi: it did not occur to the Tathagata, the objects > experienced through the six doors are not clung to by tanhaa or di.t.thi. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps that is the meaning of not having taken a stand on it, but I > don't think so. I think there is more to it. To take a stand on it seems to me > to > suggest adopting a philosophy, a view - particularly an ontology, based on it. > ----------------------------------------- Nina: PTS translates as . It fits with many other suttas where people wrongly believe: this am I, this is mine, this is myself. Recently discussed with Htoo. They cling with conceit, with tanhaa, with wrong view. > ----- ... >> whatsoever is seen ... by the mind - all that I do not know' - it would be a >> falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I both know it and know it not' - that > too >> would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: 'I neither know it nor am >> ignorant of it' - it would be a fault in me. > ------ > Co: The Buddha does not conceive ruupaayatana (the aayatana of visible > object) with tanhaa such as the 'many folk' [mahaajana]. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > That commentary strikes me as clarifying little and as being too > restrictive. The line before this quoted material is the following: "Monks, > whatsoever > in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting > of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans - whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed > (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought > after and pondered over by the mind - all that do I know." And so more is > meant > than visible object. All the sense are referred to. ------------ N: Of course, the objects appearing through the six doors. ruupaayatana is only one example given here. The Co. is very long, I did not translate all. -------- H: Moreover, and this is the main point here, this section seems to be > emphasizing that the standard systematic 4-way denial of known, not known, > both > known & not known, and neither known nor not known does not apply: he is > strongly > asserting that he does know, and that to say otherwise would be falsehood. > So, the commentary is missing the crucial point in this section it seems to > me. > ------------------------------------- N: I would not say so. He knows everything. But, what is seen in the world, by the average men, of that he takes distance. Of that he says: it would be falsehood to say: I know, I do not know, I neither know nor do not know. The co adds he has the realm of truth: sacca bhuumi. Later on it says, he has the realm of emptiness, sunnñatta bhuumi The contrast of the Buddha and the manyfolk appears also clearly in the verse: what is seen...by other folk...not such am I. > N: What is stressed here is that the Buddha does not conceive any object > with tanhaa, di.t.thi or maana, conceit. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I don't think that is what is stressed at all. > ------------------------------------------ N: Well, that is what I read in the Co. It makes sense to me. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > For me, the sense of the text is that the Tathagata countenances the > "mere" phenomenal subject and object without reifying either - the seen is > just > the seen etc, without looking for any underlying substance or essence. > (Reminiscent of the Bahiya Sutta.) > ---------------------------------------- N: In the sutta itself the absence of conceit is emphasized. You say: no underlying substance or essence, of course that is right. The Co said he is of the suññatta realm, bhuumi. And Bahiya sutta: The seen just the seen. I looked at that before: no defilements following upon seeing. In the Udaana Co. (transl by Masefield), Mucalinda chapter (p. 301, 302) refers to this same sutta. especially the footnotes: it is repeated again, that for the Buddha there is no craving and wrong view to the objects experienced through the six doors, and the Digha tiika adds: by way of self and what belongs to the self. The same tiika : The Kaalakasutta follows upon the sutta . Very meaningful. The whole world is fully comprehended by him, all objects. Here are word derivations of Tathagata, as in the Udaana Co. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't see exclusiveness of view as being the issue here, but rather the > matter of having a view that goes beyond what is directly experienced. > --------------------------------------------- N: That is beyond the proliferations of the average folk. Not beyond what is directly experienced, the Truth is to be directly experienced. He experiences according to the Truth. ----------- H: idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nan…ti). > This is dogmatism which is classified as one of the four bodily ties > (kaayaganthas). > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that's fine - certainly an important point made by the Buddha, but > not here as I see it. > -------------------------------------- N: Said by the Co. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, yes - but nothing to do with this particular sutta. > ------------------------------------------ N: See above. > ------- > Howard: > I see Dr. Wayman's analysis as more to the point. > ---------------------------------------- N: I see the Co analysis as more in accordance with the text of not only this sutta but of the whole of the Tipitaka. Nina. 46989 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Downloading the brain to a computer htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > Ian Pearson may say this but I say that this will definitely not happen. > Why? > > 1. History is the greatest proof. There have been so many predictions of > what will happen in the future and the vast majority fall way short of > the mark. > > 2. Current computer technology is way too primitive to be able to model > the brain to any extent possible to be able to store even one billionth > of what the brain can do. > > 3. Future technologies to be able to do this (like some sort of bio > processor) are at a very early stage for them to be of any use in 2050. > > 4. Our understanding of the brain itself is like an ameoba's > understanding of nibbana. We have a long way to go before we could even > model the brain in such a way that it could be stored on some other > medium. > > Metta, > > Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Evan, Thank you very much for your kind thought which is much more logical and practicable. With respect, Htoo Naing 46990 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (430) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according to the realm where they give rise rebirth to. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma or 'sensuous unwholesome kamma' 2. kaama kusala kamma or 'sensuous wholesome kamma' 3. ruupa kusala kamma or 'fine material wholesome kamma' 4.aruupa kusala kamma or 'non-material wholesome kamma' What are their results? 1. kaama akusala kamma a) results at patisandhi or at rebirth or at initiation of a life There are 12 akusala kamma. They are 8 lobha kamma, 2 dosa kamma and 2 moha kamma. At patisandhi 11 kamma out of these 12 kamma give rise to the effect at patisandhi or at rebirth or at the very time of initiation of a life. 'Etthaa kusala kamma muddhacca rahitam apaaya bhuumiyam patisandhi janeti.' Etthaa kusala = ettha akusala. Muddhacca here is 'uddhacca'.Rahita means 'excluding'. Apaaya bhuumiyam means 'to apaaya bhuumi or to woeful planes of existence or 4 woeful destinations. Patisandhi means 'rebirth'. Pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'link'. It is re- linking to a new life after passing away of cuti citta of previous life.With the exception of uddhacca citta all other 11akusala kamma can give rise to woeful rebirth. b) results through out the course of life (pavatti) 'Pavattiyam pana sabbampi dvaarasavidham sattaakusalapaakaani sabbatthaapi kaama loke, ruupa loke ca yathaa raham vipaccati'. 12 akusala cittas when they arise they already created kamma and they are akusala kamma. All these 12 akusala kammacan give rise to the result as 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka citta. These cittas are vipaaka cittas and they are 5 sense-consciousness, receiving consciousness, investigating consciousness that are the result of akusala kamma. These 7 vipaaka cittas are the result of 12 akusala kamma. They can arise in kaama bhuumi or sensuous planes of existence like human realm, 6 deva realms, 4 woeful realms and they can also arise in ruupa bhuumi or ruupa brahma realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 46991 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness ksheri3 Good Morning Larry, I don't have time to read the entire msg., where I stopped is where I answer a question, as follows: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Here is what the Visuddhimagga ("Path of Purification") has to say about > the Base Consisting of Nothingness (third immaterial jhana): > > Vism.X,32. When he wants to develop the base consisting of nothingness, > he must first achieve mastery in the five ways in the attainment of the > base consisting of boundless consciousness. Then he should see the > danger in the base consisting of boundless consciousness in this way: > 'This attainment has the base consisting of boundless space as its near > enemy, and it is not as peaceful as the base consisting of nothingness'. > So having ended his attachment to that, he should give his attention to > the base consisting of nothingness as peaceful. He should give attention > to the [present] non-existence, voidness, secluded aspect, of that same > [past] consciousness belonging to the base consisting of boundless space > which became the object of [the consciousness belonging to] the base > consisting of boundless consciousness. How should he do this? colette: Larry, you seem to express a competition of sorts for the consciousness of the individual, aspirant, etc.. I could go into the Antiques Roadshow where the aged are advertising, enticing, all who watch to hallucinate that there is value in junk and that junk is old, ancient, etc. and that by preserving this junk then they achieve what they have saught, money gain (avarice), status (vanity), etc. thus they have to sacrifice their parents grave sights and their grave sights since it is a fact that they aren't making much land anymore and the population is growing thus, to save, retain, possess junk is to sacrifice available space for something that has yet to be or become. In this type of competition, as in all types of competition, I try to find the equilibrium, the tranquility, the stillness, etc, of/in the mind where I can think with and for myself. Of course this takes practice, as everything does, but it is possible. In the course of working this learning curve of practice you will develope confidence in your decisions, etc, that help you gain the perspective of your SELF which it seems you are inquiring about. Sure you'll take your lumps but is anything good worthless and does not come with a price to pay to obtain the good, take the good from a certain position and place it in a position of your choosing? I imply possession and that which we possess also has the characteristic of possessing that who believes the illusion that they possess it. toodles, colette 46992 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!!, it must be a flea up my ass ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, I have problems with the below. Nothing that can't be fixed or enlightened no? Proceed: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Good Morning Colette, > > Pt3: > Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds > of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types > of consciousness. Being disgusted such one experiences > disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion. colette: ah, these negative feelings arise meaning you've recognized that negativity exists within yourself. Is this a cognitive state? Now I get into the "fight or flight" condition of consciousness, the survival instinct according to Jung. I take it that the disillusionment, disenchantment, dispassion, ect. is dealt with by extinguishing it -- how does one go about extinguishing cognition or could that be consciousness? I take it that monetary compensation eases the consciousness and therefore grants the aspirant, who has been disillusioned etc, to go about their merry way conducting social intercourse, social interactions, etc, with whomever they choose and already have the patented excuse for their behavior. Ah, no respect for kamma at all huh? > By this very disillusion craving is extinguished and the mind is > released! sorry no time. toodles, colette > Pt4: > Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble > Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no > higher state beyond this... > > > Summary: > > Pt1: > All forms are to be seen and understood as they really are: > > Pt2: > Impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. > > Pt3: > Seeing this the noble learner is disgusted by all forms. Being disgusted > such a one experiences disappointment with forms which leads to > dispassion. By this letting go of craving, the mind is released! > > Pt4: > Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble > Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no > higher state beyond this... > <....> 46993 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!!, it must be a flea up my ass Evan_Stamato... I think you should take the time to understand. You are thinking in terms of base feelings. What happens is a turning away from attraction to forms. A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No more need for them. -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 2:07 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!!, it must be a flea up my ass Good Morning Evan, I have problems with the below. Nothing that can't be fixed or enlightened no? Proceed: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Good Morning Colette, > > Pt3: > Seeing this, the noble learner is disgusted by all kinds > of forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions and types > of consciousness. Being disgusted such one experiences > disillusion, disenchantment, and dispassion. colette: ah, these negative feelings arise meaning you've recognized that negativity exists within yourself. Is this a cognitive state? Now I get into the "fight or flight" condition of consciousness, the survival instinct according to Jung. I take it that the disillusionment, disenchantment, dispassion, ect. is dealt with by extinguishing it -- how does one go about extinguishing cognition or could that be consciousness? I take it that monetary compensation eases the consciousness and therefore grants the aspirant, who has been disillusioned etc, to go about their merry way conducting social intercourse, social interactions, etc, with whomever they choose and already have the patented excuse for their behavior. Ah, no respect for kamma at all huh? > By this very disillusion craving is extinguished and the mind is > released! sorry no time. toodles, colette > Pt4: > Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble > Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no > higher state beyond this... > > > Summary: > > Pt1: > All forms are to be seen and understood as they really are: > > Pt2: > Impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. > > Pt3: > Seeing this the noble learner is disgusted by all forms. Being disgusted > such a one experiences disappointment with forms which leads to > dispassion. By this letting go of craving, the mind is released! > > Pt4: > Thus liberated one understands: Birth is ended, the Noble > Life is completed, done is what should be done, there is no > higher state beyond this... > <....> 46994 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi, James {Sarah, Nina and other members} - I hope your stay in the U.S. is going to be a pleasant one. Thank you much, James, for telling us about DN 8 and why you have chosen it. My online version of this DN 8 does not describe with enough detail the way that the Buddha recommended Kassapa to develop wisdom. There are inserted notes (see below) that refer to another sutta, DN 2. I have no idea why someone inserted such notes. Was it because DN 8 was too brief? Or because s/he wanted to shorten it? Maybe your copy of DN 8 contains the missing details. If that is true, then could you please describe the method for wisdom development in DN 8 for me? And why do you think it leads to sotapanna? An Exerpt from DN 8: Digha Nikaya 8 Mahasihanada Sutta 1 The Great Lion's Roar http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/dn-8.htm "But, Kassapa, when a monk develops non-enmity, non-ill-will and heart full of loving-kindness and, abandoning the corruptions, realises and dwells in the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance through wisdom, having realised it in this very life by his own insight, then, Kassapa, that monk is called an ascetic and a Brahmin." Then Kassapa said to the Lord : "Reverend Gotama, what then is the development of morality, of the heart, and of wisdom?" "A disciple goes forth and practises the moralities [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 41-63]. That is the perfection of morality. He guards the sense- doors, etc and attains the four jhanas [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 64-82 ]. That is the perfection of the heart. He attains various insights and the cessation of the corruptions [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 83-98]. That is the perfection of wisdom. And Kassapa, there is nothing further or more perfect than this perfection of morality, of the heart and of wisdom." [endquote] Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and All), > (snipped) > > Anyway, I promised you that I would write a bit about the sutta I > picked for Tep's challenge, DN8 "The Great Lion's Roar". Just as the > Lion's roar is the chief sound of all the animals- the sound which > makes animals stop cold in their tracks and pay heed- the teaching of > the Buddha is the lion's roar of all teachings. It is the supreme > teaching to which, when compared, other teachings come out as nothing more than mouse squeaks and otter barks. > > The sutta begins with a naked ascetic coming to the Buddha to ask the Buddha about his dhamma (teaching). The significant feature here is that a spiritual seeker, outside the Buddha's dispensation, comes to > the Buddha to discover the truth. I think we should identify with > this seeker and recognize the thirst for knowledge and wisdom we also carry with us. Actually, I believe it would be best if we always keep > this fresh approach, this seeking to learn, so that we may be > continually ready to heed the lion's roar. > > The Buddha begins his reply by explaining that his teaching isn't > directly opposed to or in agreement with other teachings. His > teaching is based on truth and wisdom, not artifically constructed > views of reality. Therefore, his teaching is relative to other > teachings in those aspects which agree and disagree. However, the > Buddha then makes no qualms to declair that while other teachers have purified themselves (mind and actions) only in part, the Buddha is the only teacher who has purified himself in full. This is important to > know because this fact instills confidence in the Buddha and his > dhamma as being supreme. > > The Buddha then explains his dhamma, the Noble Eightfold Path, and why those who follow it know that he is the supreme teacher. The Buddha then summarizes the Noble Eightfold Path as the proper development of morality, of the heart, and of wisdom (which is somewhat different in emphasis than the classic Buddhaghosa classification: sila, samadhi, panna). The Buddha then explains in detail and in brief how one is to develop morality, the heart, and wisdom. > (snipped) > > I believe that this sutta isn't too long or too short and contains the > teachings spoken in such a way as to lead to sotapanna- which is > strongly dependent on confidence in the Buddha and his teaching. > > Metta, > James 46995 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness lbidd2 colette: Larry, you seem to express a competition of sorts for the consciousness of the individual, aspirant, etc.. I could go into the Antiques Roadshow where the aged are advertising, enticing, all who watch to hallucinate that there is value in junk and that junk is old, ancient, etc. and that by preserving this junk then they achieve what they have saught, money gain (avarice), status (vanity), etc. thus they have to sacrifice their parents grave sights and their grave sights since it is a fact that they aren't making much land anymore and the population is growing thus, to save, retain, possess junk is to sacrifice available space for something that has yet to be or become. In this type of competition, as in all types of competition, I try to find the equilibrium, the tranquility, the stillness, etc, of/in the mind where I can think with and for myself. Of course this takes practice, as everything does, but it is possible. In the course of working this learning curve of practice you will develope confidence in your decisions, etc, that help you gain the perspective of your SELF which it seems you are inquiring about. Sure you'll take your lumps but is anything good worthless and does not come with a price to pay to obtain the good, take the good from a certain position and place it in a position of your choosing? I imply possession and that which we possess also has the characteristic of possessing that who believes the illusion that they possess it. Hi Colette, I don't understand what you are talking about. Try again. I posted the material on the third immaterial jhana because Joop was curious and didn't have access to the text. Larry 46996 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:04pm Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James {Sarah, Nina and other members} - > > I hope your stay in the U.S. is going to be a pleasant one. > > Thank you much, James, for telling us about DN 8 and why you have > chosen it. > > My online version of this DN 8 does not describe with enough detail the > way that the Buddha recommended Kassapa to develop wisdom. > There are inserted notes (see below) that refer to another sutta, DN 2. I > have no idea why someone inserted such notes. Was it because DN 8 > was too brief? Or because s/he wanted to shorten it? > > Maybe your copy of DN 8 contains the missing details. If that is true, > then could you please describe the method for wisdom development > in DN 8 for me? And why do you think it leads to sotapanna? My printed, book copy has the same details. Metta, James 46997 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Jon, ------------------------------ KH: > > It hints at a them-and-us attitude that would suggest farmers and pest exterminators > > (for example) can't be as good as other people. .... S: > Isn't this like the meat-eating and leather belts arguments? -------------------------------- Is it the same thing? My train of thought (when it was not being sidetracked) was basically that, in conventional matters, we don't know what is the best thing to do. The owner of an old, sick cat doesn't know how much time and money he should spend to keep it alive. I don't think an understanding of kusala and akusala dhammas will solve that problem for him. A slaughterman in an abattoir doesn't know whether to put down his knife and walk off the job. Or maybe that's different. I don't even know that! :-) If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" -------------------------------- S: > Are we meant to be world-minders or just mind our own cittas? Again, can we ever say what the results of our actions will be? Aren't conditions far too complex for that? Lobha, dosa and moha make the world go round, surely? If there's no thought of farmers, pest exterminators and 'them and us' now, where are these people? No Rusty, no Lodewijk, no exterminator....as you always kindly remind everyone:). ------------------------------------ I'm sure you're right. I have temporarily lost the plot. ------------------ S: > Sorry to overload you, KenH....we don't often chat this much:). ------------------ Thanks for breaking my mental block. I was kept very quiet this week trying to put together a sensible reply to Jon's post on this thread - to no avail. I will give Jon the last word by quoting his closing remark: > there is no 'right' answer to these situational dilemmas. > Ken H 46998 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness lbidd2 Colette: "Larry, you seem to express a competition of sorts for the consciousness of the individual, aspirant, etc.." Hi Colette (and Nina), I've taken another look at your email and I think I see what you are getting at. Jhana could be construed as a competition, an attempt to become the most tranquil because the jhana practitioner never seems to be satisfied. In order for there to be competition there has to be conceit, a comparing oneself to others. Conceit isn't listed as one of the hindrances to jhana so I would suppose it could be present. Maybe Nina could say something about this. The way jhana works, a level of profound tranquility is attained but then the possibility of an even greater tranquility is glimpsed. Of course the greatest tranquility is nibbana, the cessation of desire. Ultimately (finally) conceit ceases with all traces of desire. I would say tranquility is cultivated as _the_ primary value, even over insight, which seems to be more of a means to that end, imo. In that sense I can see talk of jhana as an enticement. Do you think tranquility is junk? Come on, give it a try. You might like it. What do you have to lose? Larry -------------------- Colette: "I could go into the Antiques Roadshow where the aged are advertising, enticing, all who watch to hallucinate that there is value in junk" 46999 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran rjkjp1 Dear Ken, I'm having some problems following your reasoning on this thread. The commentay to the Sammaditthi sutta gives this example http://www.abhidhamma.org/r_view02.htm "It is said that after undertaking the training rules from the Elder Pingala Buddharakkhita who lived in the Ambariya Monastery, he was plowing a field. Then his ox got lost. Searching for it, he climbed up Uttaravaddhamana Mountain. There a large serpent seized him. He thought, "Let me cut off his head with this sharp axe." Then he thought again, "This is not proper for me, that I should break a training rule that I have undertaken in the presence of my honored teacher." Thinking up to the third time, "I will give up my life but not the training rule," he threw the sharp hand axe that was slung on his shoulder into the forest. Straightaway the creature released him and went away. Refraining because of eradication (of defilements) (samucchedavirati) is to be understood as the refraining associated with the noble path. After the arising of this even the thought, "I will kill a living being," does not occur to the noble persons" Note,the layman was not a sotapanna. How do you interpret this section? In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > ------------------------------ > KH: > > It hints at a them-and-us attitude that would suggest farmers > and pest exterminators > > > (for example) can't be as good as other people. > .... > > S: > Isn't this like the meat-eating and leather belts arguments? > -------------------------------- > > Is it the same thing? My train of thought (when it was not being > sidetracked) was basically that, in conventional matters, we don't > know what is the best thing to do. The owner of an old, sick cat > doesn't know how much time and money he should spend to keep it > alive. I don't think an understanding of kusala and akusala dhammas > will solve that problem for him. A slaughterman in an abattoir > doesn't know whether to put down his knife and walk off the job. Or > maybe that's different. I don't even know that! :-) > > If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of > keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" > > -------------------------------- > S: > Are we meant to be world-minders or just mind our own cittas? > Again, can we ever say what the results of our actions will be? > Aren't conditions far too complex for that? Lobha, dosa and moha make > the world go round, surely? If there's no thought of farmers, pest > exterminators and 'them and us' now, where are these people? No > Rusty, no Lodewijk, no exterminator....as you always kindly remind > everyone:). > ------------------------------------ > > I'm sure you're right. I have temporarily lost the plot. > > ------------------ > S: > Sorry to overload you, KenH....we don't often chat this much:). > ------------------ > > Thanks for breaking my mental block. I was kept very quiet this week > trying to put together a sensible reply to Jon's post on this thread - > to no avail. I will give Jon the last word by quoting his closing > remark: > > > there is no 'right' answer to these situational dilemmas. > > > Ken H