47400 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Andrew, I'll readily accept that you are indeed naughty :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he > study? (Yeah, > > I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) > > Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important > > understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. > > Hi Howard > > I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" > is saturated with a concept of self/doer. I think there are some discussions at dsg that go nowhere when some people argue from the perspective of what they think it would or should be like if they were free of the self delusion, with people who argue from the perspective they find themselves in here and now, as agents inheriting the results of their own actions. Whatever we think from time to time, daily life still happens to all of us. Would you agree that the Buddha's teachings to lay folk ensconsed in the householders life is not along the lines of anatta but about perfecting morality - What to do and What not to do. And would you agree that the Vinaya, for those further along the path than us, is all about what to do and what not to do? Kind Regards Herman > > Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* > a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED > volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. > > Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. > Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, > speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and > declare "Let this not be!" > > You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47401 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi all, I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 02 July, 2005 08:08 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Dan Dan D. wrote: >Hi Jon, >You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the >problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of >anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of >insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. > >The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I >think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its >purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, >and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at >great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have >a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few >months. > 47402 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi Jon, You asked: "What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison?" Wisdom -- developing knowledge and understanding of both. You stated: "There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go." If you are truly selfless, there is no clinging in the Buddhist sense of the word. But, any way even if you are cling and selfless (alone either path) you are not suffering do to your experiences and you are not intestinally causing others to suffer. This fulfils a mission of both Christians and Buddhists. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 02 July, 2005 10:11 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon and Dan, > >Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > >But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go. What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison? <...> 47403 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:39am Subject: To Rob & All...re Ven Suvanno balancing_life Hi Rob & All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi Alice, Ven Suvanno's temple is in Penang. Jalan Ayer Hitam past the roundabout on the way to Penang hill, turn left after the white apartment building, park at the end of the street and climb the hill to the small Vihara on your right. (Directions are approximate, one of your friends at the Mahindarama Temple should be able to give more precise directions). It is true that Ven Suvanno is old (86) and not well. He has retired from public speaking, but he is a delight to visit. You can ask him for a set of his CDs. Sister Metta is usually around and could get a set for you as well. I suggest that you visit him some day before 11:30 so that you can offer lunch dana. ===== Sheesh! Shame on me...when you mentioned Ven. Suvanno's name, i remembered his name, cos his name was so familiar and when you mentioned the "Hokkien" CD's, i should have guessed that he is from Penang also, cos if he is a KLlite, then his teachings would probably be in Cantonese. Just now, when i went to the Mahindarama office to donate some dana, to the various projects that they have, plus "IMO", ie, In Memory Of, i met a Mr. Quah, who is also one of the volunteers administrators of the temple, and when i asked him about Venerable Suvanno, he gladly drew me a map on how to get there, as well as instructions on where to park and where not to go. When i mentioned that perhaps i should buy vegetarian lunch box dana for him, before i go and see him, Mr. Quah said that he is not feeling so good/well and needs somebody to take care of him now, and asked me to buy fruits instead, cos Ven Suvanno has a certain food allergy. So, again when i mentioned that i wanted to see him to ask for his teachings in the CD's you mentioned, he said that, if i am unable to get it from Ven Suvanno, then he could get it for me, but he has to look around for it first. ====== Is this the CD by Imee Ooi? If so, it is one of the most beautiful CDs I have ever heard. If you don't have this CD by Imee Oooi, I strongly recommend you get it (it can be bought from Sukhi Hontu in Penang). Yep, it is & i do have the cassette only, as my car only has a cassette player and one side, it has Imee Ooi singing strictly in Pali & on the reverse side, it has the English translations, after each line of lyric is sung. BTW, FYI, Sukhi Hontu has moved from Air Itam to Gottlieb Road, to one of the shop houses, very prominient from the main road, just opposite one of the Chinese Girls School, but so far, i haven't been inside it yet. ===== Celebrate her life, don't dwell on her death. The mental states of you and her father are creating your kamma. Let your niece be a condition for positive, healthy mental states to create good kamma! ===== That's my problem...i am not dwelling on her death, but dwelling on my guilty conscience...i was just chaffeuring her around (just helping to save her father's second marriage...long story, and very unbuddhist of me to tell it), never did really have the time to know her properly and regretting that i was sorta unavailable to her mentally, although i was with her & her sister physically...still blaming myself, that she would have or should have come to me, with her problems, as her mum is a strict disciplinarian (although both her mum & stepfather also loves her), and i never thought that school kids would have such a problem and as she & her sis are so docile, i never thought that she would even encounter such a problem. Although her stepfather has a daughther with her mother, which means she has another step-sister, but her stepfather loves them both, as his own daugthers even though he did not mind that they called him "Uncle D....". instead of Daddy or Father. On her birthday, he bought her a CD on her favourite group, the S Club 7 and i know cos she brought it along to listen on my computer, whilst playing computer games, also bought by her step-dad, when i asked her who bought it for her. ===== Sorry, can't help you on this. If it is in Sanskrit, it is a Mahayana Sutra and I would not be familiar with it. Metta, Rob M :-) ===== That's ok, Rob, tried searching in the internet, without success, so far last year, but will try again, when & if i have the time & facilities to do it...i still have problems discerning, between Pali & Sanskrit. The last time i wrote, i have forgotten how slow my connection/transmission is at home...it's so slow just like a snail's pace...lol...unlike my computer at the office which is so fast, cos we are using streamyx (broadband), whereas here at home, i have to use dialup -Jaring...was just so frusfrated, that i am about to give up...minutes ticking away, just to open one yahoo message or one yahoogroup message. :} AliceInTodayIsThePenang'sGovernor'sBirthdayLand P/S - Today, since its a holiday here (although it does not matter to us cos we are working only a five day week), the hall of the main temple was filled to the brim, and when at last the monk read the list of the dearly departed at the dining table, the list was so long, that i think there were about 20 or more "IMO"s. PPS - What is a Vihara? 47404 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is real ... dacostacharles Thanks Connie and Sarah, But, Connie, now you are going to have to give me your translations of: citta, cetasika, naama, and ruupa. Does that complete the list? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: connie To: dsg Sent: Friday, 03 June, 2005 17:52 Subject: [dsg] Re: What is real ... Hi Charles, Sarah, > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Connie: No. 1 citta 52 cetasika 1 nibbaana so, 54 naama and 28 ruupa (4 primary + 24 derived**) gives 82 paramattha dhammas. <...> 47405 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:47am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.6 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (1) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: Basic Paper 2 MODULE 2.6 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (1) What Kamma Is Kamma is a Pali word meaning action. It is called Karma in Sanskrit. In its general sense Kamma means all good and bad actions. It covers all kinds of intentional actions whether mental, verbal or physical thoughts, words and deeds. In its ultimate sense Kamma means all moral and immoral volitions. The Buddha says: `Mental volition, O Bhikkhus, is what I call action (Kamma). Having volition, one acts by body, speech and thought." Kamma is neither fatalism nor a doctrine of predetermination. The past influences the present but does not dominate it, for Kamma is past as well as present. The past and present influence the future. The past is a background against which life goes on from moment to moment. The future is yet to be. Only present moment exists and the responsibility of using the present moment for good or for ill lies with each individual. Every action produces an effect and it is a cause first and effect afterwards. We therefore speak of Kamma as the law of cause and effect. Throwing a stone, for example, is an action. The stone strikes a glass window and breaks it. The breakage is the effect of the action of throwing, but it is not the end. The broken window is now the cause of further trouble. Some of one's money will have to go to replace it, and one is thus unable to save the money or to buy with it what one wants for some other purpose, and the effect upon one is a feeling of disappointment. This may make one irritable and if one is not careful, one may allow the irritability to become the cause of doing something else which is wrong and so on. There is no end to the result of action, no end to Kamma, so we should be very careful about our actions, so that their effect will be good. It is, therefore, necessary for us to do a good, helpful action that will return to us in good Kamma and make us strong enough to start a better Kamma. Throw a stone into a pond and watch the effect. There is a splash and a number of little rings appear round the place where the stone strikes. See how the rings grow wider and wider till they become too wide and too tiny for our eyes to follow. The little stone disturbs the water in the pond, but its work is not finished yet. When the tiny waves reach the edges of the pond, the water moves back till it pushes the stone that has disturbed it. The effects of our actions come back to us just as the waves do to the stone, and as long as we do our action with evil intention the new waves of effect come back to beat upon us and disturb us. If we are kind and keep ourselves peaceful, the returning waves of trouble will grow weaker and weaker till they die down and our good Kamma will come back to us in blessings. If we sow a mango seed, for instance, a mango tree will come up and bear mangoes, and if we sow a chili seed, a chilli plant will grow and produce chillies. The Buddha says: `According to the seed that's sown, So is the fruit ye reap therefrom, Doer of good gathers good, Doer of evil, evil reaps. Sown is the seed, and thou shalt taste the fruit thereof.' Samyutta Nikaya, Everything that comes to us is right. When anything pleasant comes to us and makes us happy, we may be sure that our Kamma has come to show us what we have done is right. When anything unpleasant comes to us, hurts us, or makes us unhappy, our Kamma has come to show us our mistake. We must never forget that Kamma is always just. It neither loves nor hates, neither rewards nor punishes. It is never angry, never pleased. It is simply the law of cause and effect. Kamma knows nothing about us. Does fire know us when it burns us? No, it is the nature of fire to burn, to give out heat. If we use it properly it gives us light, cooks our food for us or burns anything we wish to get rid of, but if we use it wrongly it burns our property and us. Its work is to burn and our job is to use it in the right way. We are foolish if we grow angry and blame it when it burns us because we have made a mistake. There are inequalities and manifold destinies for people in the world. One is, for example, inferior and another superior. One perishes in infancy and another at the age of eighty or a hundred. One is sick and infirm, and another strong and healthy. One is brought up in luxury and another in misery. One is born a millionaire, another a pauper. One is a genius and another an idiot. What is the cause of the inequalities that exist in the world? Buddhists cannot believe that this variation is the result of blind chance. Science itself is indeed all against the theory of Chance. In the world of the scientist all works in accordance with the laws of cause and effect. Neither can Buddhists believe that these inequalities of the world are due to a God-Creator. One of the three divergent views that prevailed at the time of the Buddha was: Whatsoever happiness or pain or neutral feeling the person experiences all that is due to the creation of a Supreme Deity. Anguttara Nikaya, Vol. I, Pg 158 Commenting on this fatalistic view the Buddha said: "So, then, owing to the creation of a Supreme Deity men, will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, abusive, babblers, covetous, malicious, and perverse in view. Thus for those who fall back on the creation of a God as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor necessity to do this deed or abstain from that deed." Referring to the naked ascetics who practised self-mortification, the Buddha said: "If, O Bhikkhus, beings experience pain and happiness as the result of God's creation, then certainly these naked ascetics must have been created by a wicked God, since they are at present experiencing such terrible pain. " Devadaha Sutta, No 101; Majjhima Nikaya, Vol. II, Pg 222 According to Buddhism the inequalities that exist in the world is due, to some extent, to heredity and environment and to a greater extent, to a cause or causes (Kamma), which are not only present but also proximate or remote past. Man himself is responsible for his own happiness and misery. He creates his own heaven and hell. He is master of his own destiny, child of his past and parent of his future. Questions In the Law of Kamma, good beget good, bad beget bad, and then good plus bad will beget what effect? What are the major similarities and differences between the Law of Kamma and the Theory of the Creator God? Answers (Module 2.5) Why Right Understanding is placed first among the others when in the order of development one begin with the sequence of Sila? In the actual development of Sila, Right Understanding is essential for one to know what is wholesome and what is not. Without Right Understanding on what is virtuous, one may have difficulties differentiating them. Whatever the sequences are, there is no superior among them because all the 8 Right paths are folded into one single path called the Noble Eight-fold Path. One important point to note as compare to the teachings of other religion is the Buddha recommended beside avoiding evils and doing good, one need to purify one's mind. Why? Avoiding evil does not necessary mean doing good. Neither is doing good does not necessary mean avoiding evil. These unique teachings of the Buddha is incomplete without the inclusion of the purification of the mind because in the final analysis of performing wholesome deeds, one need to have the Right Understanding and a clear mind on what one is doing. Such, realization of the true meaning can be achieved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 47406 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Herman, Howard , Sarah (*) and all > > Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - > > but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription > > prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of > > enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in > > the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. > > > > There's a time honoured tradition of answering a question with a > question :-) Does the Buddha prescribe to go and win the lottery? > Hmm. That's a good question. There is a sutta that makes it clear that just being reborn a human is a long shot. The one about the yoke with a hole in it floating in the sea - the odds of a blind turtle (?) sticking his head through it are comparable (less?) than the odds of our being born human. And there are the memorable similes of the sea of tears we have cried through countless rebirths, and the mountain of bones that we have cast aside or something like that. So yes, the Buddha makes it clear that we have come through countless lives to be where we are. Does that mean that we are facing countless more? For me, that is implied, but I suppose it needn't be so. Tep used the metaphor of a casino to describe the way he sees the patient approach to mindfulness taught by A Sujin. I can see why people think that, but when there is a moment of appreciating the value of a moment of awareness, personally speaking, concern about how long it will take really falls away. So what of the turban on fire, the samvega? Moments of knowing urgency are enough - it can't be maintained, in my opinion, without wrong view involved. Howard, I think you laid down the approach through the Degrees very well. My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. (*)Tonight I heard in a talk Sarah say that she thought if people plug away with wrong view, just accumulating clinging, it would be better for them if they had never heard of Buddhism. I disagree.A this point I would agree with the woman in the talk who responded that right understanding can arise gradually conditioned by reading and reflecting on Dhamma, even with wrong view early on. I think of my own experience with metta. If I hadn't tried to generate metta, I wouldn't have learned that it can't be generated just by thinking about it. And I also think that Dhamma with what I consider to be wrong view still helps people to be happier and less harmful in the world (eg trying to generate metta) even if the wrong view practice is furthering their stay in samsara by strengthening clinging to self that can control things. I think Dhamma can be healing and helpful for people even when it is not pure. So in the Ajahn Brahm passage, I think he suggest that compassion is something that can be tapped in to at will. That is wrong view, I believe, but it does no harm. So does taking precepts and clinging to the idea of being a person who keeps the precepts. Again, the right understanding is that it is only the moment of abstaining from transgression that is truly keeping a precept, but the thinking about it doesn't do any harm - except in being an obstacle in the person's progress towards deeper liberation - and the suffering they will have when they learn that transgression or abstention from transgression is conditioned beyond their control. (Which doesn't mean that we are helpless in the face of temptation - abstention can be developed.) I am happy that I have accumulations that seem to be guiding me toward a patient approach to Dhamma, without notions of control, without desires to generate kusala that doesn't arise through conditions. But Ajahn Brahm's style of willful kusala doesn't do any harm in the world, I would say. Not my cup of tea, mind you. But I will say that I think *he* was being mischievous when he said people who criticize his approach are advocating immorality. That's nonsense. For example, we know enough to learn to tolerate the conditioned lobha, dosa, mana etc that inevitably arise in daily life - that is not immorality - but I have never heard anyone here say tha we can be comfortable with akusala kamma pattha - the evil deeds that are moral transgressions. (I know that it it's possible that he *wasn't* referring to DSG! :)) Herman, I was going to write back to you in that other thread, but tomorrow or the next day I guess. Thanks for your reply - great food for thought in there. Metta, Phil 47407 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:34am Subject: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles - How are you doing? > Charles D: > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." > Isn't it true that most people who have self-views love to stretch the teachings, or anything else including the laws, "in order to achieve the stated objective"? They all have fun doing that (especially when they win). Best wishes, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all, > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities > between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." > > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." > > CharlesD 47408 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:33am Subject: Understanding is the Chief ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Understanding is the Fourth Mental Perfection: Understanding penetrates, illuminates and guides right. Concentration is the proximate cause of Understanding. Understanding is the proximate cause of Equanimity. Understanding is the manifestation of Concentration. Only understanding comprehends the meaning & essence. Understanding purifies the other mental perfections: Energy acquires purpose only, when guided by Understanding. Only fortified by Understanding, is determination unshakeable. Only Understanding can patiently tolerate other beings abuse. Only Understanding induce indifference towards gain & loss. Only Understanding can secure both own and others welfare. Just as red sandalwood is reckoned as the best of all scented woods, even & exactly so is the ability to understand reckoned the supreme among all the mental qualities, that are the links to self-awakening, leading to enlightenment. SN V 48-55 Indriya-samyutta And of what kind, friends, is this evaluating ability of Understanding ? In this, friends, the Noble learner is possessed of direct knowledge about the arising and ceasing of all phenomena, which is a Noble insight, a penetrating & ultimate understanding, that gradually realizes and leads to the utter elimination of all Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Cause of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the End of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Way to end Misery. This, friends, is the discriminating ability of Understanding ... SN V 48-10 Indriya-samyutta Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. Supreme among gains is the increase of comprehension... Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that. AN I 14-5 When the Noble friend avoids ignorant persons, but instead cultivates, frequents and honors persons who comprehend, teach and review the effects of profound knowledge, then is the ability to understand refined in these three aspects... When the Noble friend is thus leaving ignorance all behind, there is development of the ability to Understand. When the Noble friend is developing the ability to understand, then ignorance is left all behind. Mutual is this enhancement. Path of Discrimination A learned man who due to his great understanding, despises those of little learning, is like a blind man walking around with a lamp in his high hand... Theragatha 1026 Happy indeed are those possessing nothing... Those who have won Understanding, cling to nothing. While those attached to family, friends & property both possessed & obsessed - are as tied to torture... Udana II 6 What sort of person is released by Understanding? (Panna-Vimutti) Here a person without experiencing all the 8 stages of absorption, anyway eliminates all mental fermentations completely, after having perceived them through insight. Such person is said to be released by Understanding. Designation of Human Types 31 Just as the great Ocean slopes down gradually, deepens gradually, inclines gradually, and not abruptly like an abyss, even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); One do not suddenly penetrate to the highest Understanding... Anguttara Nikaya II 47 Asking Questions logically leads to Understanding: As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from both low, middle and high folks, if one search & ask both slightly, moderately and highly wise teachers, then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka ______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47409 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/9/05 1:21:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi Howard I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" is saturated with a concept of self/doer. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: If that's how it is for you, then you should avoid that teminology. It is not that way for me. (Oops, dare "I" say "me"?) For me, doing is not a code word for self, but pertains to volition and volitional action. In order to write to you this moment, multi-millions of mindstates involving specific acts of volition are occurring. Without them, there would be no communication going on. ---------------------------------------------- Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I won't speak that way for three reasons: 1) That's not how people speak, including the Buddha, 2) Such language encourages inaction, and 3) Such language leads to the mere pretence that one is free of sense of self. ---------------------------------------------- Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It is that, and more essentially it is about carrying out useful activities prescribed by the Buddha. (If you say "carried out by whom", I would say that this has to be understood conventionally, and if it is not understood that way, then the misunderstander is in danger.) ----------------------------------------------- Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and declare "Let this not be!" You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I suggest you re-read suttas to see how far the Buddha took ordinary language in talking to worldlings. ----------------------------------------------- Best wishes Andrew T ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47410 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Robert) - In a message dated 7/9/05 3:45:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: That's what I meant below, but I wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. ===================== As best I have come to understand it, Buddhism most definitely acknowledges distinguishable streams. (I don't believe that any of them are separate in the sense of being independent of each other, but that is another issue.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47411 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/9/05 8:16:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Howard, I think you laid down the approach through the Degrees very well. My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. ======================== Thank you for the clarification. You point is well made, and well taken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47412 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:18am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - To formulate your thought from the paramattha-dhamma principles, mostly rejecting conventional speech and concepts(pannatti), is one extreme . To reject every principle based on ultimate realities and use only conventional speech and concepts is another extreme. <"Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta> Htoo, asking the following questions shows an extreme view of an extremely confused person [SN XLIV.10]. Did The Buddha exist? Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? Do Dhamma exist? Did and do arahats exist? Did I exist? Will I be there in the future? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? How do we avoid these extreme views? Simply adopt the following right views: 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga Sutta] 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] Best wishes (and unlimited Karuna), Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > Tep continued: > > It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a > good result is expected. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I was thinking on 'expectation'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >(snipped) > Tep wrote: > > I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > Htoo: > > Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. > > And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written > on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been > posted here. > > Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no > indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. > (snipped) > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47413 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:42am Subject: Only 1 single 'Sign' = 'key' is neccessary... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Tep Sastri who wrote: >Is it correct to say that the above 8-stage breathing meditation >procedure is a samatha bhavana for achieving absorption? Yes, first calm, then momentary concentration, then access and then finally absorption. >Does "steady state" in Step 5 mean a jhana state, say cognizance >without hindrances and with no vitakka & vicara? "steady state" in Step 5 mean 1st jhana state with vitakka & vicara >Is the sign, which is the "remembrance" of the previously learned >absorption, a perception(sanna) -- a memory? Yes indeed, all memories are past perceptions. >Tep: Once the meditator has learned the sign, how should He tries to remember the sign as lively as he can & vupti! Up goes the door to absorption and in he enters... When first in he can direct to any other object! >Is it necessary that he always starts with stage1 every time? Yes. "Turning away" in stage 6 is not emerging from absorption, but just a change in object, which mind then focuses unified on... Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. 47414 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path?own upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/9/05 9:23:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... advocates the following wholesome and useful activities: 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga Sutta] 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] ========================== Wonderful, Tep! This Dhamma is so refreshing - so cleansing of spirit! And for us absurdly intellect-bound (and ego-bound!) cases, item # 2 is soooo important!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47415 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path?own buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Howard - It is nice to receive such a joyful message from you: > Howard: Wonderful, Tep! This Dhamma is so refreshing - so cleansing of spirit! > And for us absurdly intellect-bound (and ego-bound!) cases, item # 2 is soooo important!!! > > With metta, > Howard > Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 7/9/05 9:23:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... advocates the following wholesome and useful activities: > 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, > the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga > Sutta] > > 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending > yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the > Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- > term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] > > 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in > the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't > cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. > Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is > ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for > this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] > ========================== 47416 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 10:34am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - This week we study 2 paragraphs, 200 - 201. Please recall the last paragraph (#199) on the exercise of mindfulness and full awareness (sampajanna). It indicates that through the long in- and out-breaths, the bhikkhu "understands" unification and non-distraction of the mind and recognizes the arising and passing-away characteristics of the three namas: vedana, sanna, and vitakka. It is clear that concentration (unification and non-distraction of the mind) is established first through the first object (vatthu) of anapanasati, which is "long in-breaths and out-breaths", then understanding and realization of the characteristics of the namas follow. Thus, understanding is clearly conditioned by concentration. The Pali for 'recognition' (chosen by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, the translator) is 'vijjaa', and that for 'recognized' is 'vidita'. 'Arising' is 'uppaada', and 'arisen' is 'uppanna'. 'Appearance of terror' is "bhayat' upatthaana". 200. How are feelings(vedana) recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized. How is the appearance(establishment = uppatthaana) of feeling recognized? When he gives attention(manasikara) [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance(establishment) as exhaustion is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized. How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving there is a cessation of feeling ...With the cessation of action(kamma) there is a cessation of feeling... The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact there is a cessation of feeling . Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of change(viparinaama), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. This is how feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. 201. How are perceptions(sanna) recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? How is the arising of perception recognized? The arising of perception is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of perception ... With the arising of craving ... With the arising of contact ... [and so on as in para #200 up to the end]. < End of presentation for 7/9/05> Tep's Notes on Sati and Sampajanna : (sometimes, I use the term sampajanna to mean cognition or right knowledge) It is important to remember that there are 16 objects(vattthu) of the anapanasati bhavana (or 32 if you break it further according to in-breath and out-breath, i.e. 16x2 = 32). It is also important to recognize that even the first object, long in- & out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity as described in para 194 (the Thai version says that when upekkha is established, cognizance will move away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths). Recall from para 193 that mindfulness is established when the bhikkhu knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in & out long. He is a mindful worker "by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge". Then in para 196 it is stated that with unification of cognizance sati "remains" at the object, and by means of "that sati and that knowledge" he contemplates the body as a body. We may also say that the first vatthu of anapanasati can be employed to condition sati and sampajanna to arise with equanimity. At this point I would say the bhikkhu has developed both samatha and vipassana. I look forward to hearing your comments as usual. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > My slow-but-sure-and-gladdened typing continues to paragraphs #197- > 199 for today. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate that body[the > seven contemplations]? He contemplates it as impermanent > 47417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... nilovg Hi Sarah, for a long time I had in mind that I wanted to write to Kom. Is there any address? Nina. op 09-07-2005 07:40 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple > in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in > Chengrai. S. > =============================== 47418 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: For me, doing is not a code > word for self, but pertains to volition and volitional action. In order to > write to you this moment, multi-millions of mindstates involving specific acts of > volition are occurring. Without them, there would be no communication going on. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* > a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED > volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I won't speak that way for three reasons: 1) That's not how people speak, > including the Buddha, 2) Such language encourages inaction, and 3) Such > language leads to the mere pretence that one is free of sense of self. > ---------------------------------------------- Hi Howard and Herman Thanks for your posts and sorry for not replying to each and every point. In fact, I might just take up Herman's espoused tradition of answering questions with questions and see where we get - or don't get. (-: I can imagine the 3 of us getting together and having a really great chat about life, the universe and everything. At some stage, the conversation would get around to weight - how much we each weigh, the price of a ton of wheat in the US and Australia etc. Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT that conversation about weight would *have to be* if we inhabited a planet without gravity! The Buddha was surrounded by atman-type religions. He taught anatta and in his scheme there was something called cetana which we are translating as "volition". Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT a discussion about volition *has to be* in an anatta-type scheme! When I encounter people ("myself" included!) who say "Oh, I accept that there is no self, but there *is* volition", it often strikes me that the volition being referred to has more of a footing in an atman- type context than in an anatta one. The Dhamma in this regard is so "difficult to see" that one can easily fall into the trap of making volition a substitute self. I do it all the time. IMHO all 3 baskets of the Pali Canon must properly be read at a deeper level simply because of this RADICAL teaching of anatta. Those who stop at the outer layers of the tree trunk never get to the heartwood. Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. I think the following is an interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes first"? I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] Best wishes Andrew T 47419 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:51am Subject: Sesos con todo ksheri3 Good Morning Group, an interesting night's meditations, the main focus was Mental States: Part I, The Universals, 12 Cetasikas, Chapter 2, Feeling (Vedana). A very odd thing occured. As you will recall I mentioned earlier that "things were flowing smoothly" in relation to the e-book by Nina, as I was getting near to the end of the chapter I realized that I was copying notes in the same way as I copied notes in papers from one very astute PhD. and Dr. concerning the Lurianic kaballah. Oh yea, Nina, there is a strong connection here that I've found for myself, I hope it doesn't place any wonder in you. I enjoyed reading this this morning: "Can be learned behavior" -- my notes concerning the passage: "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and when it is gone we are sad" Just to show that I am not reading Nina's work strictly to criticize I'll say that I really like the paragraph on p.5 begining with: "The pleasant feeling which accompanies kusala citta is quite different from the pleasant feeling which accompanies lobha-mula- citta...." At this point I was awakening to my characteristic. What mainly struck me here was that in the case of this PhD & Dr. I was so focussed on the depth of his material, not only in the aspect of the level of education he exhibited and my ability to still comprehend the material, the fact that hit me as odd was that in his case I never got the chance to debate, discuss, etc. his work, yet here I have the opportunity to flat out confront my demons working that are working thru Nina. Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many defilements" My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of view?" Naturally I thought of the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn where their material is in a state of flux on line and open to change by others. In fact the main priest at their California temple made the assertion that there might be value in an outsider examining their ceremonials and doing some checking on their efficacy. It was a long arugment about my credentials, if I had any, where my initiation took place, when, blah blah blah, and since I cannot or will not prove, substantiate my statements then I should cast overboard, blah blah blah. To which a colleague gave an ancient interpretation to the meaning of the Left Hand Path: assassins (or something to that effect) would conceal their weapons on the left while extending their right hand in friendship thus the negative connotations to the Left Hand Path as an evil manifestation. Now for Sarah and "Setting rolling The Wheel of Truth" If we notice the connection here with the Abhidhamma there might be some light shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. With the concept of Citta & Cetasika there is the truth that they arise and cessate, fall, at the same time: no sooner does the citta become a flash of enlightenment, see your local 4th of July fireworks special where the enlightenments flash in the sky and typically in a circular pattern before extinguishing themselves. This may be a result of the focus of attention, where at first it was upon reaching a certain goal and the operative meditator was leaving bread crumbs along the way like a lost waif in the forest so as to mark the path they took to get to where they were/are, but upon reaching the Citta and experiencing the flash of the fireworks in the mind the bread crumbs that marked your path have disappeared like the Cetasikas that substantiated the Citta. Interesting position to be in huh? What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?-type of thing. lol So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving." I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. Damn those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY SELF. Well, time is knocking me out of the game sortofspeak and for some odd reason I think I hear money screaming bloody murder but I can't be sure if it is money or not. I don't delusion that money has a voice and or vocal chords. So, until later today. toodles, colette 47420 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:46am Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? ksheri3 Good Morning Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > I think you're making very worthwhile points here. You would have the > vast majority of modern cognitive science on your side if you were to > say that hearing is effectively a development of body sense. colette: are you saying that hearing is a conditioned function of the body? Take for instance a newborn child. Does that child need to be schooled (conditioned) in how to hear or does the child naturally hear? ----------- Hearing > starts as the converting of vibrations into elctrical pulses, which is > what happens all over your body, colette: my playful side is showing since it seems as though you've taken away the opportunity I had to make a splendid joke of a practicle nature. I was going to eventually confront those who confronted myself with: does that mean that I can't hear light or see sound (or something to that effect, I was going to place the body sense with a different rupa and see how it played out but you've gone and taken the steam out of my bubble, LOL). "Curses Batman" ;-)) I've known that for instance seeing is more than just through the eye or hearing through the ear, both are cognitive functions of the brain. In fact while a member of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton IL I used to ride my back to the Olcott Library nearly every day, in the summers, back in '84-'87. This is where I learned of the practice of pranayama and let me tell ya it's a marvelous learning procedure, practice. While waiting in the emergency room in like '97 my eyes swolled shut and I could stil see through my bodies function of actuallizing my other senses to greater degrees. I my mind's eye however, I could visualize the movements of people, things, their actions and it was a sensation that aided in transcending the pain. Once I had achieved a complete consciousness in this new mode there was no pain. Or when, as a child living on Dublin Rd. in a Pittsburg suburb I had hit a car and sliced the most perfect of cuts almost completely thru my leg at the knee, no blood at all was lost. As I was being carried up the hill my mom rubbed the pain I had in my knee only her hand went completely into the pant leg. Upon rolling up the leg I could see my entire knee, joint, bone, muscle, you name it, and I can remember my amazement not the pain. I was like, "oh cool man, look at that, that is my body" After I learned about meditation I meditated on this once and realized that it was just the trauma I went thru since I do remember eventually feeling GREAT PAIN as my dad drove me to the hospital. -------------------------------- albeit in a much less specialised way. > > And more often than not, the hearing of low frequencies such as bass > through a nice sub-woofer is actually the rattling of your rib cage. colette: yes, the senses are much more than the simplistic trivializing so often found in theologies and because people learn that there really is more to what they believe they themselves are in the position to dictate to others, they realize how frightening this world/life can be and actually is. I see it more of a learning experience and an opportunity that somehow somebody as full of definlements as myself, has somehow walked into possession of. As we can see by letting others have your rights to do with things you possess, see the invasion of Iraq and Weapons of Mass Destruction, you are actually defiling yourself by allowing such blasphemies to occur by the free will and choices, cravings, you've allowed to develope inside your hermetic jar called a skull. That is presuming that the mind in a part of the brain and the brain is in the skull and not in the pants. lol ---------------------------- > > Don't play your Studio Tan too loud now , hear :-) colette: ah, I get the picture, studio musicians are highly respected in their ability to walk up to a pc. of music and play. The good studio musicians really build a name for themselves that way. I've forgotten the song list on Studio Tan. Sorry! toodles, colette 47421 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." Hi Tep and Nina, I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. Are the breathing rupas somehow a by-product of sense-sphere javana cittas? Do bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. Does that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not kamma resultant? Larry 47422 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized." Hi again Tep and Nina, Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of a sign? Larry 47423 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Jon, This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle sharpness. Larry 47424 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm gazita2002 Dear Phil and other friends, have snipped alot of this post as this paragraph is the only one I want to comment on.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: ..... My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind > everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply > to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble > instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to > worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate > revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. > Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a > prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be > read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening > of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. > Azita; at times, I react with a degree of frustration at some of the above suttas simply bec. I know it doesn't relate to me and if I took them at word value then I would think that the Path was very easy. Many, I think, are addressed to ariyans, not us worldlings. I like K.Sujin's 'ocean of concepts' and that wisdom is the island in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important Khanti - patience - is. Which brings me to the point I realy want to discuss. I was thinking about my interactions with friends and the certain relationships I have with them. That I have expectations of them and if those expectations are not met then something doesn't feel right. But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can compassion whn there are no conditions for it. So, on and on I puddle/muddle seemingly expecting more from the conventional realities than from paramattha dhammas but there is little panna to know - right now I guess its just a whole mob of moha. here's another line for our hit song 'mo,mo,mo haha' patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 47425 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: Kom's ordination news and message... gazita2002 Dear Sarah and others thanx for this Sarah. an auspicious day, it just happens to be my birthday :-0 I wish all the best for Kom - Tikkapanno - and have much appreciated his understanding of the Dhamma and his patience and kindness he shown the few times I have met him. May he gain much from the Sangha life. if you have contact with him, please pass on my good wishes to him. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple > in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in > Chengrai. S. > =============================== > > Hi Jon, > > It's happenning and fortunately, other people are taking care of all the > details. > > My only words to others on DSG are, Dhamma is the greatest blessing in > my life - I wish you all study the texts, have wise considerations, > follow the teachings with wisdom, and may you all reach where you want > to be. If I have done anything to offend anybody, please do forgive me, > and I promise I won't (or will try not to) do it again... > > My dhamma name is something like Tikkapanno, meaning sharp panna, which > goes along with my Thai name, which means a sharp knife. > > The date you travel I think will be during vassa, so my being in > Chiangrai as a monk won't help :-). Maybe next time... > > Thanks again for the jataka you got me - I found many joy with the two > books I have (partly) read.... > > kom > > > > On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:53:46 +0800, "Jonothan Abbott" > said: > > Hi Kom > > > > How are your ordination plans going? > <....> 47426 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi Robert and Howard, > > > __________________ > > > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of > khandhas. > > > __________________________________________- > > > > > > > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify > what > > I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are > > different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is > > identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There > are > > events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that > > happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I > > wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I > hope I > > am not misconstruing you :-)) > > _______________ > > Dear Herman, > You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that > all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams > of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts > even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of > nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, > different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning > factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being > developed, erased.) > === I am wondering if the idea of distinguishable streams of khandas is implicit, or are there actual, direct statements in the Suttas about this? Also, Joop has discussed at various times the lack of any "social" citta in the Abhidhamma, the lack of anything that would allow knowledge of "this" stream as opposed to "that" stream. Do you have any comments in relation to that? Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47427 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi Azita, How about applying this khanti, patience, with yourself to others also so you aren't frustrated by them and their actions? - kel > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > Khanti - patience - is. > But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would > be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with > compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc > > I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion > when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is > the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience > and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only > grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can > compassion whn there are no conditions for it. 47428 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. gazita2002 Dear Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense > of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is > the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) > there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the > characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the > arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." > > Hi Tep and Nina, > > I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. Azita: is it bec tanha can produce dosa e.g. when we don't get what we want or when we get what we don't want? and therefore not mentioned bec its just understood to be so ? > > Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is > consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is > consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce > tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I > don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. Are the > breathing rupas somehow a by-product of sense-sphere javana cittas? Do > bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? Azita; thought I could answer this one easily but now that I've come to actually write I guess I can't explain precisely, but its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing - mmmmmm, doesn't sound quite right but when that particular kamma result runs its course, then citta no longer produces breath - 'we're' dead! > I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. A. no, I don't think so. Does > that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma > resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not > kamma resultant? A. Any mindfulness, sati, is not vipaka but a kusala citta. If there is right mindfulness of anything then that is a high degree of kusala citta. Hoping someone else comes in with more precise answers for you Larry. When I get the opportunity I like to answer ques. bec it gives me an idea of my own understanding - thanx in advance. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. > > Larry 47429 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Andrew and Howard, > Hi Howard and Herman > > Thanks for your posts and sorry for not replying to each and every > point. In fact, I might just take up Herman's espoused tradition of > answering questions with questions and see where we get - or don't > get. (-: > > I can imagine the 3 of us getting together and having a really great > chat about life, the universe and everything. At some stage, the > conversation would get around to weight - how much we each weigh, the > price of a ton of wheat in the US and Australia etc. === I'm with you so far. === > > Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT that conversation about weight would > *have to be* if we inhabited a planet without gravity! === Yes, agreed. And without diminishing the value of what you are saying, if we have a conversation about living on a planet without gravity whilst living on Earth, our conversation would take on a theoretical nature, wouldn't it? And what would we understand a being from such a planet to be saying , were he to come to our planet and share his reality with us? === > > The Buddha was surrounded by atman-type religions. He taught anatta > and in his scheme there was something called cetana which we are > translating as "volition". > > Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT a discussion about volition *has to > be* in an anatta-type scheme! > > When I encounter people ("myself" included!) who say "Oh, I accept > that there is no self, but there *is* volition", it often strikes me > that the volition being referred to has more of a footing in an atman- > type context than in an anatta one. The Dhamma in this regard is > so "difficult to see" that one can easily fall into the trap of > making volition a substitute self. I do it all the time. === Yes, agreed. None of the khandas is to be seen as me , mine , I. === > > IMHO all 3 baskets of the Pali Canon must properly be read at a > deeper level simply because of this RADICAL teaching of anatta. > Those who stop at the outer layers of the tree trunk never get to the > heartwood. > > Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and > his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. === A logical consequence of the anatta teaching is that self-view is also anatta. There is self-view, but noone that has it. Everything is just the way it is, and the only way it can be. Do you believe that is what the Buddha teaches? As a related aside, we are speaking about conditioned phenomena only, right? Is that all there is? If there is "something" else, does it have influence in the conditioned world? === I think the following is an > interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: > > How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right > Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes > first"? > > I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much > at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] You are quite right. I do not give great weight to the sequencing of things in the noble eightfold path. There are varying renditions of various lists in the Suttas. I do not subscribe to views that say this way is the only way and all other ways are wrong. But that's just me. Kind Regards Herman > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47430 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm gazita2002 Hello Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > How about applying this khanti, patience, with yourself to others > also so you aren't frustrated by them and their actions? > > - kel A. this made me smile, in fact LOL. and I do see I have much accumulated impatience. there are less 'impatient outbursts' these days since studying dhamma. thanx for your to-the-point reminder, kel Cheers, Azita. > > > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > > Khanti - patience - is. 47431 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Azita: "its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing -" Hi Azita, Thanks for pitching in. Everything you said seemed reasonable except the above. I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness, but I couldn't find anything definitive in CMA. Do you think it could be two different consciousnesses, one for in and one for out? Maybe we should meditate on this. Larry 47432 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for initiating a discussion on the breathing consciousness, rupa, jhana citta, kamma vipaka, and dosa. > Larry: > I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. > >Azita: is it bec tanha can produce dosa e.g. when we don't get > what we want or when we get what we don't want? and therefore not >mentioned bec its just understood to be so ? > Tep: One reason that dosa is not mentioned in the BT paragraph on conditioned arising is because dosa is akusala mula -- unlike contact, feeling and craving which are the causal links of the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada). The rest of the discussion is best answered by Nina, I believe. Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense > of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is > the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) > there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the > characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the > arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." > (snipped) 47433 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - The sign(nimitta) during breathing meditation is an interesting topic. > Larry: > Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of > a sign? > Tep: I don't think so, Larry. Although the serenity and concentration signs (nimitta) of the BT are perception, the appearance (establishment) of perception is explained in the context of conditioned arising in para 201 : 201. How are perceptions(sanna) recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? How is the arising of perception recognized? The arising of perception is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of perception ... With the arising of craving ... With the arising of contact ... Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is > how the appearance of feeling is recognized." > > Hi again Tep and Nina, > > Larry 47434 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Tep: "One reason that dosa is not mentioned in the BT paragraph on conditioned arising is because dosa is akusala mula -- unlike contact, feeling and craving which are the causal links of the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada)." Hi Tep, Also ignorance. Good job, I think that's it. Larry 47435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Tep, Regarding how to recognize perception, by suggesting sign as perception I wasn't confining it to the sign of concentration, but any sign. Actually, I was thinking about movies. It seems to me that a movie is packed full of signs of pleasure and pain. A more subtle case would be signs of passion in music. Do you have access to a commentary on para. 201? I think we need more info on how to recognize recognition (perception). Larry 47436 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/9/05 6:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. I think the following is an interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes first"? I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] Best wishes Andrew T ========================== First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I need to know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because each is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in the manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a higher level, and on and on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47437 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at > increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I need to > know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever > achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because each > is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in the > manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level > supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a > higher level, and on and on. Hi again Howard and Herman Thanks for your sensible replies, much of which strikes a chord. On the topic of similies/analogies like the Great Physician, there are many in the Dhamma as you know and the thought sometimes arises about how much we should read into them. Take the one of the teaching of Dhamma being the Lion's Roar. A lion's roar is something that stops you in your tracks and makes the hairs on your neck stand on end. In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions (despite what volition wills). It thus seems to me that there is more Dhamma to be learned/experienced by reflecting, not on what I *can* do, but on what I *can't*. Because that's the time that puts paid to ideas of a self or a selfless volition *directing* conditions. Take care Andrew T 47438 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 0:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewT, Are you saying you only see anatta when it's akusala vipaka and not when it's kusala vipaka? :) - kel > In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the > lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are > times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been > when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my > volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions > (despite what volition wills). 47439 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:21am Subject: re: what is real nichiconn CharlesD: But, Connie, now you are going to have to give me your translations of: citta, cetasika, naama, and ruupa. Does that complete the list? Connie: can't i just give you back ? You know how lists are prone to go to any lengths. nama covers citta, cetasika & nibbana ( CMA covers nibbana in the rupa chapter - know why? ) so, we can say just nama and rupa or make it shorter yet: dhatus (elements). khandha = rasi, guna, pannatti, rulhi, kotthasa; bulk, trunk, mass, ch or section, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form (pancakhandha) citta = vinnana(khandha); mano; manasa; ahara; "bent"; 89 or 121 types of thought moment/life. also this state's accompanying mental factors/cetasikas. knowing process. mano = citta and cetasikas; vedana (feeling), sanna (memory, marking, perception), sankhara (cetana) and vinnana -khandhas; "(heart)mind" cetasikas = vedana-, sanna- and sankhara- khandhas; 52 mental factors rupa -- afflicted, molested. the element that does not know/experience/care about anything. "materiality"; form; visible object. rootless. object of sensual desire. nama - immaterial; name(d); 'ethical' nibbana - beyond me Try www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html or the glossary in the group's files section. peace. 47440 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my reply and the one you wrote that I replied? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > To formulate your thought from the paramattha-dhamma principles, > mostly rejecting conventional speech and concepts(pannatti), is one > extreme . To reject every > principle based on ultimate realities and use only conventional > speech and concepts is another extreme. <"Only this is true; anything > otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta> > > Htoo, asking the following questions shows an extreme view of an > extremely confused person [SN XLIV.10]. > > Did The Buddha exist? Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? Do > Dhamma exist? Did and do arahats exist? Did I exist? Will I be there in > the future? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did > Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > > How do we avoid these extreme views? Simply adopt the following > right views: > > 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, > the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga > Sutta] > > 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending > yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the > Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- > term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] > > 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in > the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't > cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. > Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is > ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for > this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] > > > Best wishes (and unlimited Karuna), > > > Tep 47441 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob K, > Though kaya can also refer to the mental body, cetasikas, I think in this > context we have to think of rupas. > The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, > pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, > citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the > Visuddhimagga. > Nina. > op 08-07-2005 13:17 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > > > I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental > > body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. > > RobertK -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina and Rob K, If mental body is included in kaayanupassana The Buddha would not have preached on other satipatthaana of vedanaupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa, and dhammaanupassanaa. With much respect, Htoo Naing 47442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] ongoing mindfulness. nilovg Hi Howard, op 08-07-2005 23:55 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: N: do you mean continuous mindfulness? > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I didn't mean that. I was speaking informally and referring to a > practice of being consistently mindful of what is happening at "ordinary > times" as > opposed to specifically during "formal meditation" periods. Mindfulness is an > enlightenment factor, but I don't think that it needs to be present at every > moment. > -------------------------------------------- N: But by condiitons there is mindfulness with each moment of kusala: daana, siila, bhaavana. But different degrees. Sati is non-forgetful. There may be an opportunity for giving, but one is just too lazy and lets it pass by. Sati 'remembers' what is kusala. -------- > Howard: > I hope what I said above sufficiently clarifies what I had in mind, Nina. > ------------------------------------------ N: Yes, you clarified what you meant. Not sati all the time. When there is an opportunity I would like to discuss more the object of sati and the difference between the moment there is no sati and there is sati. I find this subject always difficult, because in theory I can say something, but this can only be really clear when there is a true moment of sati and not what we take for sati. But you also wrote, that understanding comes first. You appreciate the role of understanding. No hurry, I have some busy days ahead, besides, Larry is waiting for me to add something about dosa! Nina. 47443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta nilovg Hi Howard, A relevant question. I like such questions. op 08-07-2005 21:08 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through > three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what > changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? Is it a matter of > increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained > for > a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero > level? ------ N: I do not know much about the three phases, they are so fast anyway, but I learnt something about this from the subject of conditions. Citta at the moment of arising is strong, only then it can originate ruupa. Thus it is very intense and then it decreases in intensity. This is an aside: with ruupa it is the opposite. Ruupa is weak at its arising moment and it cannot be a base or object of citta. Eyebase can only be a condition for citta after its arising moment, during the moments of its presence. Visible object can only be object condition for citta after its arising moment. To return to citta. Cittas rooted in aversion, dosa, can produce ruupas. There is a change in colour and facial features as we say in conventional language. There are several dosa-muulacittas arising and falling away succeeding one another, and there are many processes of them. At the first submoment of citta, its arising moment, it produces rupa. This shows that the moments of dosa at such a time are countless. It gives us a sense of urgency of the danger of akusala. There is still more to it. Through eyes only colour appears, and in another process it is known what the meaning is of this colour. We realize: this person is angry. Saññaa plays its part. ---------- H: Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are > all > the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? ------- N: Yes, whenever we speak of citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always included. --------- H: So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding > questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot > be > considered a "reality", can it? -------- N: I do not consider your questions a trap. Good points for discussions always! I think that exactly what is a conditioned reality is subject to change. It arises, is present for an extremely short while and then falls away immediately. There are very meaningful texts also in the suttas what is subject to change is dukkha. Subject to change: vipari.nama in Pali. Dhammasangani §1038 (p. 249): The Buddha uses many different wordings to help those who can be led to enlightenment. This is his discrimination of language, nirutti patisambhida. They are different synonyms for : past, fallen away. The Expositor (p. 465, The Triplets): Dhammas cannot stay the same, this sounds very real to me. -------- H: It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. ------- N: See above. Citta is one of the four paramattha dhammas. Citta rooted in dosa, this can be called dosa-muulacitta, it does not matter how we call it, but it is real for everybody, also for animals. Citta rooted in lobha is real for everybody, its characteristic does not change, it is citta with clinging. It arises and falls away. It is not a concept. The name is naama-paññatti, but this name denotes a reality. I have a feeling that the subject of reality and concept has not been exhausted yet. Nina. 47444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Ken, Phil, Howard and all, This is an urgent issue that deserves more discussion. op 09-07-2005 09:00 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > We are of the opinion - based on our Dhamma studies - that attachment > to detachment (and attachment to the idea of detachment) is a bad > thing. Even so, there are bound to be many akusala moments with > attachment to the idea of detachment. > > Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always > detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to > detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, > there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. --- N: Yes, I catch myself having attachment to the idea of detachment. I listen to tapes while I am copying for Sarah, and I hear: there is lobha all the time. Even kusala: it is for our own sake. I wrote to Phil about the beneficial condition of reading suttas, and Phil responded: but there should be no expectations. When I am not in the right frame of mind, I do not always like to hear such things, I have some moments of irritation, like Phil also had. Dan said, that is a good thing. Right. First there is irritation, and then we see that the right point was hit. I am grateful to all Dhamma friends who remind me! At first we believe that there is pure kusala, that there is mindfulness, but then we learn that there is a form of lobha we take for kusala. Lobha can also be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and then it is hard to notice it. I have to understand that there are many more moments of lobha than kusala. Theoretically I understand, but, as to the level of practice, not yet. Expectations do enter. Nina. 47445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... nilovg Hi Sarah and Jon, Exactly what Larry says. I always missed him on the list. But he can be of great assistance to the Sangha, thus, I rejoice. Nina. op 10-07-2005 02:02 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several > excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, > Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle > sharpness. 47446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm nilovg Hi Howard, yes, well said. This helps me to understand texts like: who is concentrated see things as they really are. I think we have to consider all the time the different degrees of each. And, for those who do not develop jhaana, still, at the moment of magga-citta concentration has grown to the strength of the first jhana. Nina. op 10-07-2005 07:36 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at > increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I > need to > know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever > achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because > each > is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in > the > manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level > supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a > higher level, and on and on. 47447 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > >> > Dear Herman, > > You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that > > all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams > > of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts > > even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of > > nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, > > different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning > > factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being > > developed, erased.) > > > === > I am wondering if the idea of distinguishable streams of khandas is > implicit, or are there actual, direct statements in the Suttas about > this? Also, Joop has discussed at various times the lack of any > "social" citta in the Abhidhamma, the lack of anything that would > allow knowledge of "this" stream as opposed to "that" stream. Do you > have any comments in relation to that? > >____________ Dear Herman, It is explicit: Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? ""'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... Each stream makes kamma entirely individually. The streams sometimes bump into each other and occasionally head the same way, but they are still seperate. The Abhidhamma specifically classifies Karauna (compassion) and Mudita(sympathetic Joy). Metta and equanimity are included under adosa and tatramajjhattata. These are the 4 ways we ideally relate to others. The other ways are with dosa (aversion), tanha (desire) and avijja (unawareness). It seems to me that Abhidhamma covers the full range of social activity so I don't see where we could add an extra citta. Robertk 47448 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Enthusiastic is Energy ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Energy is the Fifth Mental Perfection: Energy means enthusiasm Energy means effort Energy means exertion Energy means interest Energy means endeavour Energy means eagerness Energy means initiative Energy means intensity Energy means action Energy means force Energy means power Energy means keenness Energy means devotion Energy means dedication Energy means determination Energy means commitment Energy means enjoyment Energy pave the way for success in all & any project ... Energy is thereby instrumental for all the perfections. Without energy can no achievement ever be accomplished. The proximate cause for energy is a sense of urgency !!! The characteristic of energy is striving, it's function is effort, and the manifestation of energy is endurance. Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams ? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving. Sutta Nipata 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude & dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipata 332 Possessed of Energy & Endurance be always earnest in your training. The clever One is not satisfied before the goal of ending all misery, is wholly achieved. Theragatha 585 It is too cold, it is too hot..., It is too early, it is too late! Such bad excuses, make one give up the training & miss one more precious opportunity... DN 31 This straight Way has now been clearly shown: Don't hesitate, walk forward & do not turn around. Urge yourself to advance further by your own Energy, only thus will you obviously approach & attain Nibbana! Theragatha 637 The effort to prevent & to eliminate evil, to develop & to maintain good: These are the 4 right efforts, taught by the Buddha. AN II 17 And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, not yet arisen, & food too for boosting of the present Energy ? The element of initiative, The element of exertion, The element of endurance. Systematic attention to these, is feeding the yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, & food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta At such times, friends, when the mind is Slow, Sluggish, and Heavy: Then it is the Right Occasion: for cultivating the Investigation-by-curiosity enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Energy-of-Enthusiasm enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Rapture-of-Joy enlightenment-factor... Why is it so ? When the mind is slow, sluggish, and heavy, it is Easily Raised Up by exactly these mental qualities. Suppose, friends, that a man wants a fire to blaze up, and he put on dry grass, dry wood sticks and blow it with dry hot air and do not cover it with any dust, would that man then see his fire blaze up ? Certainly So, Lord... SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta Well then, Moggallana, whatever experience you had in mind when drowsiness demoralized you down, don't attend to that experience, don't follow it. Remember instead the Dhamma, as you have heard & memorized it, reflect on & examine it! Then raise up & repeat aloud the details of Dhamma, as you have learnt it! Then pull both your earlobes and rub your limbs with both your hands.! Then get up from your seat, and after washing your eyes with cold water, look around & upward in all directions and identify the major stars & planets! Then attend to the experience of inner light, resolve on the clear perception of daytime, by night as by day, and by day as by night! By means of an awareness thus open, unhindered & vivid, develop the bright mind. It's possible, that by doing this, you will shake off your lethargy... But if by doing this you don't shake off your laziness, then continually noting what is both in front & behind set of a distance to meditate walking back & forth, your senses inwardly settled, while your mind is not getting lost outwards. It is possible that by doing this you will finally shake off your sluggishness. Anguttara Nikaya VII 58 Born as the Brahmin Mahajanaka, the Bodhisatta was once, aboard a ship sinking far from shore. All the crew were in great panic...!!! The Bodhisatta though ate his belly full of sugar & ghee, oiled his clothes and swam continuously for 7 days towards the shore, until he was rescued by an ocean guarding female devote devata. Later he remembered: "Even far out at sea, where many men were lost, yet still unruffled by worry was my mind. This enthusiasm was my perfection of Energy." Mahajanaka-Jataka no. 539 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47449 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:00am Subject: Re: Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Dear Sarah, I needed to move little further. ie,. if the nibbana is just a dream like thing for those WHO ATTENDED nibbana? if it is exist in THEIR mind only? or just a imagination? Any way, this suspicious thoughts are fading away from my mind so I would like to start learning buddhism in a methodical way. There are so many dhamma talks, articles and books that we can reed.but i feel those are not related to each other. so I would like to start to read the tipitaka. I prefer pali as the language and believe reading skills are enouhg to read and understand tipitaka. good news is all tipitaka is only about 20000 pages.i saw this in a artical but not sure about it. also found tipitaka at www.metta.lk/tipitaka. this will be hard as I found no single pali dictionary that contain all the pali words found in the tipitaka. and also no idea of how many pali words are there in the tipitaka. I appriceate your suggestion on this. You asked "What is life at this moment as you see it?" life is just a drama and rewards people who play well. we have little little programs to play in each ocation in our life. for example we have one program to express love to some people and another program to hurt people we dis-like. we respect our bosses and neglect our office assistant. even our voice has different kind of tone for each of those people. we maintain sapearte set of thoughts for buddhist and another set for non buddhist. more for arrogant people, inocent, kind, bad,money, etc. for me, life is a collection of such thoughts and action. I would say, I may count 100-200 such main action and thoughts in a working day. and 50-100 in a holiday. but thease numbers reflect only thoughts which can be notice easily. I believe i will be able to see much more than this, if develop the clarity of the mind. life at this movement is just a play of one such a program. I have little control over choosing which program to play. but i have no control over which set of thoughts and action to posses in a particular stage of life. I liked sweets in my childhood but I dont want it any more. I didnt put any effort to make me dislike sweets. it just happend. I think same rule will be applied to the many of the things in life. money, respect, love etc.. metta avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Avidu, > > --- amp amp wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so > > let me re-post the same question again. > > > > My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect > > even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a > > kind of dream? > .... > S: I think that for us now, nibbana and the fruits of enlightenment are > just a kind of dream that can't be directly experienced. So why not let go > of the dreams and consider more about what can be directly tested and > proved? I think that this is the only way that there will be more > confidence in the Buddha's teachings, including those aspects which we > dream about. > > What is life at this moment as you see it? > .... > > > willing to be defeated.. > .... > S: No question of 'defeated' here:). Persevere with your questions and > you'll see the benefit. > > Thank you for giving your name. Please tell us where you live. Were you > brought up in a Buddhist country? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. jonoabb Hi Tep Time for my week-end burst of activity again ;-)). Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon: I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects >would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long >in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( >without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness). > >Tep: My first reading also tempted me to straightforwardly count (a) to >(i) and come up with the number 9. However, the second reading >discovered that (c) alone consists of two distinct aspects: 1. long in- >breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent; 2. zeal arises with long in- >breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent. And in (i) there are two >distinct aspects: 1. Through gladness he has long in-breaths and out- >breaths reckoned by extent; 2. Long in-breaths and out-breaths through >gladness that results in established equanimity. So I discovered the >right nine aspects in (c) - (i) instead of (a) - (i). > Thanks for the correction, Tep. >Jon: My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and >vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be >of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana >does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising >dhamma. >Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much >appreciated. > >Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does >not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". > > Panna is a mental factor that knows directly or understands. However, there are different levels or degrees of knowing. The panna that arises with moments of samatha bhavana knows directly, for example, the kusala or akusala nature of mind states. Only the panna that arises at moments of insight development knows the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, that is, its nature as a nama or rupa, or its specific characteristic, or the characteristics that it shares in common with all other conditioned dhammas (anicca, dukkha, anatta). I hope this makes sense. Jon 47451 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > > >... >It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think >I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) > Yes I do think that; isn't everyone on this list an expert in satipatthana? ;-)) ;-)) Seriously though, I see you as an independent thinker but at the same time as someone who has sufficient confidence in or respect for the texts to be wary about disregarding what is there simply because it appears not to concur with your experience to date. But to be frank, that is not why I have been pursuing this topic. I have been questioning your interpretation of the kayanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta as laying down 'activities' that are 'conducive to insight'. That is why in my last post I asked you how you see the development of mindfulness under those sections of the sutta that do not specify any 'actions conducive to insight'. The response you gave to that question (below) doesn't really answer the question, as far as I can see. However, I don't wish to press the subject if you'd rather not continue the discussion. Apologies if you feel 'nitpicked' (see Herman's post) ;-)) Jon >From my >understanding, insight into the characteristics of rupas would, post >facto, involve insight into the characteristics of namas. They are >both dependent on each other. > >Metta, >James > 47452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a >natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements >which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For >example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally >understood as being confused about some categories. > >The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of >"there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a >conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be >an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in >time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible >at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. > Ah, a fellow nit-picker, I see ;-)) Thanks for this explanation. I think you're saying that a person who has truly experienced an absolute would not be talking about that absolute in terms of numbers and time, since that would be inconsistent with its absoluteness. This seems an odd point to make regarding what is clearly a summary of material found in the texts, rather than the writer's personal experience. But perhaps more to the point, the Buddha himself gave many discourses in which dhammas were described in terms of numbers (and which together now form the Anguttara Nikaya), so there is good precedent for this approach ;-)). >(I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting >occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) > Yes, time and counting are both conceptual matters, but the statement 'there is only one citta at a time' does not purport to be a description of a paramattha dhamma; it simply addresses the commonly held view that experiences through the different sense-doors and the mind door can all occur simultaneously. Perhaps your perceived 'confusion of levels' results from a misunderstanding of the original statement. Hope you're having a good weekend. Jon 47453 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Azita & Nina, I sent Kom a note and gave him links to your messages. Yes, a very suitable name and he'll be an honour to the Sangha. His assistance to us with the running of DSG for several years (mostly behind the scenes)was enormous -- not only on the technical side, but also with his kind and compassionate way of trying to help new members learn the ropes and so on, especially when we were travelling or busy or when there were any 'difficulties'. He really set us a very fine and modest example. Fortunately, the list pretty well runs itself these days, really a big thanks to all of you. As a friend recntly wrote to us (off-list): "You are blessed with a wonderful list of people on your list." with appreciation. Metta, Sarah. p.s Nina, I've sent you Kom's add. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > Exactly what Larry says. I always missed him on the list. But he can be > of > great assistance to the Sangha, thus, I rejoice. > Nina. > op 10-07-2005 02:02 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several > > excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, > > Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle > > sharpness. 47455 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta htootintnaing Dear Howard and Nina, Howard posted an interesting post. Nina has already answered and satisfactorily replied. I put a few more points here. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hi, all - As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina's explanation will be better than me as she supported with evidences from sources. Here I will give physical phenomena just to compare as a simile. Light is definitely a ruupa. Light definitely serves as an object for eyes. Eyes themselves are not naama or knowers. Eyes are also ruupa. Here I use 'eyes' as physical eyes, scientific eyes. There are 2 phenomena sofar I put in. The first is 1. light, which is ruupa. The second is 2. eyes, which is (is) ruupa. I am not talking on 'unperceived light and non-perceiving eye' but talking on 'perceived light and perceiving eye'. My word may go wrong when I use 'perceive' here because I am not sure whether it is right to use 'eye can perceive'. Anyway perceived light and perceiving eye are both ruupas. There is a third phenomenon. It is consciousness. It is a citta. It is eye-consciousness. It is cakkhuvinnaana citta. Consciousness arises at eye. So it is called eye-consciousness. Still there are many other phenomena when the physical light is still there. I am conveying to your (Howard's) question but still not reaching the point yet. Let us assume we do a test or an experiment. Requirements: 1. unlighted light source 2. battery or power supply 3. power switcher 4. a human subject with perfect eyes 5. brain waves detector The switcher of power supply has to swtich on and out fast. As soon as he switches on there will be a bright white light. As he switches out very very fastly the light disappear within a split second. When the human subject is asked he will be able to answer that he sees the bright white light. So there was a light (ruupa) and there was eye (ruupa) and there also was a consciousness (citta/naama). There will be a trace of brain wave. The experiement is over. Let us analyse the experiment. The perceiver of the light knows that there was a light. This happens because there have happened many many many consciousness. There have been many many processions of consciousness or 'vithi vaara'. Let us take the first vithi vara. In that first vithi vara (citta procession) there are 17 moments when the first phenomenon of ruupa (light) happens. This means that ruupa has lifespan of 17 moments of a consciousness. Even in this first 17 consciousness the first citta is not 'eye- consciousness'. This means that the eye does not see the light as soon as the light arises. Because the light was so weak to serve as an object for eye in its initial existence that is in the first 17th or light especially in the first 3rd of that 1st 17th ruupa. White light is made up of a spectrum of light rays namely; blue, indigo, violet, green, yellow, orange, red. among these 7 light waves the longest is red. So when the first to reach the eye is red and not white light (which is the object in the experiment). This can be understood when the batteries are weak. There will be just a dim red light. But when batteries are full of charge there will be white light. This is just s simile and an example. So for white light there are 17 moments or 51 submoments. Among these 51, the first is very weak to serve as an object. But the 2nd submoment can do the job of object. But at that time a consciousness has already arisen and it is life- continuing consciousness or bhavanga citta. There is a series of consciousness that follows this bhavanga citta. What I put in here is that there are arising, persisting, and vanishing of ruupa. Likewise there are arising, persisting and vanishing of consciousness. But this is much much more swifter than ruupa. Now it comes to your question. Howard asked: 'Exactly what changes occuring in the citta distingusih these stages?' Htoo: I would answer; This is a hard to understand matter. When consciousness are flowing very very very fast ordinary people will never sense these stages. So as ordinary people we will have to understand them with judgement on how consciousness or citta, their accompanying mental factorts or cetasika, and ruupas are working. This is to judge with our intellectual understanding. There are arising of different ruupas and vanishing of different ruupa. These ruupas are originated from 4 different causes. I am not talking on ruupa but to delineate on 1.arising, 2.persisting, and 3.vansihing of consciousness that is the three stages that you asked. At patisandhi or rebirth there arises patisandhi citta. That citta has 3 stages. At all stages it produces kammaja ruupa or kamma-born ruupas. Next arise 1st bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness. It has 3 stages. At all 3 stages that bhavanga citta produces consciousness-born rupa or cittaja ruupa. Cittaja ruupas have been producing through out a life since the arising of the 1st bhavanaga citta and this happens till the last citta called cuti citta or life-ceasing consciousness. Again this consciousness has 3 stages. At all stages it produces cittaja ruupas. Even the last third of cuti citta can produce cittaja rupa. Ahaaraaja ruupa arise when the satta concern swallow their own saliva (upapatti satta) or when mother blood reaches fetus. So far there are kammaja ruupa, cittaja ruupa, and aahaaraja ruupa. Again I am not talking on ruupa. I am conveying to 3 stages of citta. The 4th ruupa is utuja ruupa or temperature-born ruupa. Here unlike other other ruupa this ruupa in a satta starts to arise in the 2nd stage of patisandhi citta. But since then utuja ruupa will have been arising all the time until the planet/earth is destroyed. So clearly there is initiation or initial stage of citta, persisting stage of citta and vanishing stage of citta. The vanishing stage of cuti citta can produce cittaja ruupa. As ruupa has 51 submoments as a life further 50 submoments are still in the corpse as the results of arising of cuti citta while individual concerned is no more there. Sorry for very very long explanation. But these explanations do need. Now the answer to your question comes. Htoo's answer to Howard question: 'There is nothing in citta that distingusihes 3 stages.' A citta just happens '1.2.3.' and there is just temporal relationship among these three stages. That is 'upaada khana' or 'arising' comes first, 'thiti khana' or persisting moment comes after that and this is followed by 'bhanga khana' or vansihing moment'. There is no intrisically identifiable thing in a citta that distinguish these 3 stages. As I explained in kammaja ruupa, utuja ruupa and cittaja ruupa there are 3 different stages of a citta. 1. in the 1st stage of patisandhi citta kaamaja ruupa arises(kamma) 2. in the 2nd stage of patisandhi citta utuja ruupa arises(ruupa weak) 3. in the 1st stage of first bhavanga citta cittaja ruupa arises and cittaja rupa still arise in the 3rd stage of cuti citta.(citta) So there are 3 distinct stages in a citta. They are arising (uppaada), persisting (thiiti), and vanishing(bhanga). But there is no intrinsically identifiable things in a citta that distinguish between these 3 stages. They are just temporal serialising one after another without any interruption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is it a matter of increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained for a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I have explained above. There is no mathematical involvement in the intensity of a citta. All 3 stages are equally the same in a citta. Example is cuti citta. This is a dying consciousness. But in all 3 stages it produces cittaja ruupas equally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are all the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not at all. There are characteristics of cetasikas. 1. arises together with the citta/ (arise at the very same time) 2. depend on the base where the citta depends 3. take the same object where the citta takes 4. vanish together with the citta/ (vansih at the very same time) At all 3 stages cetasikas will also be in 1.initial stage, 2.persisting stage, 3.vanishing stage. Like the citta the intensity is the same through out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot be considered a "reality", can it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said there is temporal serialising that is '1.2.3.'. So when there is '1.' there is no '2.' and no '3.'. When there is '2.' there is no longer '1.' and there is no '3.'. When there is '3.' there is no longer '1.' and '2.'. They are impermanent. They are anicca. They are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhara dhamma. They are realities. It is not a trap at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear when you say 'notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena'. What is conventional phenomena? With Metta, Htoo Naing > 47456 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: " ... But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. I think this would be a mistake. Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are. I of course agree with the point you often make that we have to begin where we are (that is, as relatively deluded, kilesa-ridden individuals), but I see this as meaning that the moments of actual insight development will be few and far between. I do not see it as meaning that we should feel free to pursue a particular practice knowing that it will involve frequent moments of akusala. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention >our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is >arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the >diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our >defilements! >------------------------------------ >... >------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, yes - "can" occur. But it is far better to*cultivate* ongoing >attention, Jon. Our study of the Dhamma makes it clear how important paying >attention is. It is so wonderful that the Buddha emphasized that. But if we don't pay >attention to his teachings except as intellectual diversion, then we will not >benefit from them. >------------------------------------- > >... >---------------------------------------------- >Howard: > So what is your point, Jon? That is a truism. But paying attention to >what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing >fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all >imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that >there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no >effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. >--------------------------------------------- > 47457 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your post. Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: The anapanasati bhavana as taught in MN 118 (same as the >thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, para 183, Breathing >Treatise) has nothing to do with "mundane jhana". The paragraphs # >16 - # 168 show clearly that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful >method for developing the ariya-maggas, starting from the four rupa >jhanas (as defined in DN 22), going all the way to the 4 arupa-jhanas, >the 18 principal insights, and then the four ariya-maggas. > >In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as >follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when >developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations >of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when >developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to >completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & >pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". > >Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together >with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the >samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- >magga & phala development. > The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. A person who has developed anapanasati samadhi, but not vipassana bhavana as well, cannot attain enlightenment. In SN 54:13, however, (and in certain other suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta), the final attainment described is enlightenment. So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? In SN 54:13 the Buddha describes how a person who is highly developed in both anapanasati and vipassana can attain enlightenment with jhana citta as basis. In other words, he is describing not just samatha and not just vipassana, but the development of both together under very particular circumstances. Thus the words, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion" should be understood as meaning that when anapanasati is developed and pursued *as set out in the following part of the sutta* (that is to say, in the case of the particular kind of individual there described, together with vipassana) it can bring the four foundations of mindfulness to completion. The following part of the sutta then explains in detail the development leading to the twin attainments of jhana and enlightenment with jhana as basis. I am not aware of jhana attained other than by anapanasati being given the same treatment elsewhere in the suttas. So I think SN 54:13 and the other suttas like it are specific to anapanasati, rather than being general to jhana. Jon 47458 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing DEar Herman, Well it is time-consuming. I have already used time when I reply to Howard's post. But as your questions are equally interesting I will reply it but after it I may or may not be around. Just send an off- list message that you have posted some messages for for if you want me to reply again. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, You write many interesting things. If you feel inclined, I would certainly appreciate your time and effort to further examine some of these things. > Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn > dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If > dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path > may be followed. > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > & Tep wrote: > Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible > way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is > best, in general? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > These are pedagogic matter. > 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some > outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' > 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. > 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and > this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. > Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. > 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal > when there are conditions. === ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: A] I wonder if you would allow for another category of transferred knowledge. Sexual reproduction. Babies, for short. In a healthy baby there is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling. These senses are not self-discovered, they are not taught, but they are there as another, new instance of "seeing knowing visible object", "hearing knowing audible object" and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was talking on 3 different kinds of wisdom. What your baby has is not wisdom. But just perception. Perception of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling etc. Even in these babies there can arise some wisdom. Example is taste. First time the taste was just perceived. Next time it was perceived. But that perception was conditioned by former perception. And later and later perceptions are not like former and former perception. Then there arise a wisdom 'O! this milk is sweet. O! this time this milk is stink. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: B] I wonder, too, to what extent transferred knowledge (teaching / learning) is a genuine category of knowing. I think there is often confusion between what is learnt and what is known. A silly medium - sized example follows. I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Little Johny comes home from school, and his Dad asks him "What do you know today that you didn't know yesterday". If Johny were to say "I know that there are 4 chambers in the heart" he would have misunderstood what knowing that means. If he instead would have said "The teacher teaches that there are 4 chambers in the heart" Johny would have shown wisdom beyond his years. Likewise little Colette. If she tells Mum that she now knows how to catch a ball, because that's what she did in sport, she'd be right. But if it was raining that day, and the teacher only explained the theory of catching a ball, Colette cannot say she knows how to catch a ball. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To know how to catch a ball is a wisdom. It is heard. Likewise to know how to swim is also a wisdom. It is taught in the room. Even though if he or she swim he or she may sink the knowledge given by teachers is learned wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > > in the screen for your mind. > a) things on the screen > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: What about the following? Seeing the things on the screen of the mind is equal to the act of differentiating them, abstracting them. Without an act, a grasping, a doing, none of these are apparent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You did not grasped the idea that I gave to Tep. When you 'differentiate' 'abstract' then there is no you but the screen is differentiating thoughts and the watcher is the mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo message to Tep is reincluded by Htoo: > b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: The separation of experience into namas and rupas is a conceptual activity. Do namas exist? Not without rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In pancavokaara bhuumis or in the realms where beings have all 5 aggregates of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana your statement is true. That is naama do not exist without ruupas. But in catuvokaara bhuumis or in the realms where there are beings who do not have any ruupa and just have 4 aggregates of vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana there are naama that exist without ruupas. They are called aruupa brahmas or non-material brahma-deva beings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Do rupas exist? Not without namas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong. There are unperceived sights. There are unheard sounds. There are unsmelled smells. There are untasted tastes. There are untouched touches. These are bahiddha dhamma. The Buddha very very frequently preached that there are ajjhatta and there are bahiddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Are they ultimates? Only as ultimate as the act of separating what is not separate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Real perceivers will only know these ultimacies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I agree with you. And repeated reflection on any model of dhamma will highlight that a model is only a model. A model of reality is only as good as it allows one to describe and predict how reality unfolds. Some useful questions to ask in relation to any model are "Which observed phenomena does it fail to explain?" and "Which phenomena does it decribe or predict which remain unobserved or are unobservable?" Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear with your questions. What is phenomenon? But generally names or pannatti are unobserved. They are unobservable. They fail to explain. Because they are not ultimate realities. Example what is 'Herman'? Is it 'H' 'e' 'r' 'm' 'a' 'n'? No. With respect, Htoo Naing 47459 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Herman, > It is explicit: > Anguttara Nikaya V.57 > Upajjhatthana Sutta > > "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, > whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? > ""'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of > my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my > arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall > heir.'... > > Each stream makes kamma entirely individually. The streams sometimes > bump into each other and occasionally head the same way, but they > are still seperate. > > > The Abhidhamma specifically classifies Karauna (compassion) and > Mudita(sympathetic Joy). Metta and equanimity > are included under adosa and tatramajjhattata. These are the 4 ways > we ideally relate to others. > The other ways are with dosa (aversion), tanha (desire) and avijja > (unawareness). > > It seems to me that Abhidhamma covers the full range of social > activity so I don't see where we could add an extra citta. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Herman and all, Good. There is no social citta to add. With respect, Htoo Naing 47460 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that >rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do >not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no >characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. > Yes, namas depend on rupas for their arising, and rupas cannot be experienced without namas. But it does not follow from that that 'there are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known'. When it comes to insight development, each dhamma has its own characteristic to be known. At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no knowing of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. >I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana >sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I >think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. > I would say that both James and I read the Satipatthana Sutta in the light of our knowledge of the Tipitaka as a whole, its commentaries and other texts. Right James? >I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one >another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be >therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". > > Hmm, a prerequisite, you say. Who would decide, and how, whether 2 people were in the same space? Besides, it would take all the fun out of talking at cross-purposes ;-)). >It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of >Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on >it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the >problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at >least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient >where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma >view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that >an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired >outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where >they are at. > I think some of us are quite happy with occasional (or frequent) mismatches ;-)). Seriously though, thanks for the suggestion. I know what you mean. I will try in my own posts to establish appropriate common ground. Jon 47461 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 433 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Among kaama kusala kamma or kamma or sensuous implications there is a hierarchy kusala kamma. These kamma are 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'triple-rooted greater kamma' 2. tihetuka omaka kamma or 'triple-rooted lesser kamma' 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'double-rooted greater kamma' 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma or 'double-rooted lesser kamma'. The first kamma arise when kusala actions are done with asankharika citta or 'unprompted consciousness' with panna. The second kamma is also the output of mahakusala citta with panna. But it is sasankharika citta and it needs to be prompted. That is why the kamma become lesser as compared to greater kamma. The same applies to latter two kamma but they are done without panna and they are both done with dvihetuka citta. So they are dvihetuka ukkattha kamma and dvihetuka omaka kamma. What are their results? 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'triple-rooted greater kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth at patisandhi kaala. This means that this kamma give rise to tihetuka patisandhi cittas. There are 4 tihetuka mahaavipaaka cittas, which are the results of 4 tihetuka mahaakusala cittas. With these 4 cittas, beings may be reborn as a human being, as a deva being in any of 6 deva realms. b) In the course of life, tihetuka ukkattha kamma give rise to 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas and 8 sahetuka mahaavipaaka cittas. In the course of life mahaavipaaka cittas serve as bhavanga cittas, tadaarammana cittas or retention consciousness and in the last moment it serves as cuti citta as tihetuka cuti citta. 2. tihetuka omaka kamma or 'triple-rooted lesser kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth in human realm or in one of 6 deva realms. But it gives rise to dvihetuka patisandhi cittas. These cittas are 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas or 4 mahaavipaaka citta without panna. Unfortunately beings these patisandhis cittas can never attain jhaana or magga in the same life unlike beings born with tihetuka patisandhi. b) In the course of life, tihetuka omaka kamma give rise to 4 naana- vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas and 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'double-rooted greater kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth at human realm or one of 6 deva realms but with dvihetuka patisandhi cittas. There are 4 dvihetuka patisandhi cittas and they are 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas or sensuous-resultant-consciousness without wisdom. b) In the course of life, this kamma gives rise to 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas and 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma or 'double-rooted lesser kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to only ahetuka patisandhi citta. So beings with this patisandhi citta will be those with congenital deafness, congenital blindness, beings with learning difficulties and mental retardation, and powerless lower devas. b) In the course of life, dvihetuka omaka kamma only gives rise to 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >I am writing mainly because your little paragraph above pricked my >interest. It did so because you are speaking sutta-speak here. Which I >do not wish to dissuade you from. > >But in fairness to Howard and James and Tep, whose understanding of >the Satipatthana sutta you nitpick to a thousand unrecognisable >pieces, how does reflecting come about? How does seeing what happens >come about? And whatever you answer, how do those things come about? >And those? And those? > > Reflecting comes about because one is interested in the subject matter, and one sees the value in further developing that interest (has a sense of urgency, samvega). Present interest is the sum total of interest accumulated in the past, and likewise the present sense of urgency. This is how it has always been, without any perceivable beginning (according to the Buddha). >I would prefer it if you didn't answer. > Too late. You should've put this at the beginning ;-)) Jon 47463 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 434 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma After delineation on akusala kamma and kaama kusala kamma, in this post ruupa kusala kamma will be talked. There are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These 5 kamma are the result of 5 ruupa kusala. 5 ruupa kusala are 5 ruupavacara rupakusala cittas. They are 5 ruupa jhaanas. 1.vitakka,vicara,piti,sukha,ekaggata sahitam 1stjhana rupakusala citta 2.vicara, piiti, sukha, ekaggata sahitam 2nd jhaana rupakusala citta 3.piiti, sukha, ekaggata sahitam 3rd jhaana ruupakusala citta 4.sukha, ekaggataa sahitam 4th jhaana ruupakusala citta 5.upekkha, ekaggataa sahitam 5th jhaana ruupakusala citta are 5 jhaanas. When these cittas arise they already created 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These kamma can give rise to 5 ruupavipaaka cittas. Even though there are 5 ruupa kusala kamma there are many ruupa kusala kamma according to the strength of jhaana cittas. Those who attain jhaana may just obtain it and near dying he or she stay again in that jhaana and this leads to rebirth in corresponding ruupa brahma (jhaana) bhuumi or realms. This kind of jhaana is the weakest and called hina-jhaana. Those who attain jhaana may practise their jhaana to proficient level that is whenever they want their jhaana they are able to do so and whenever they want to exit they can do so and they are said to be very proficient in their jhaana. This jhaana when arise in near dying can give rise to rebirth in brahma bhuumi or fine material realms. This kind of jhaana is paniita jhaana. Those who attain jhaana and they practise their jhaana for some time but not to that level of very proficient as in case of paniita jhaana. Their jhaana is said to be the middle one or majjhima jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47464 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:43am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 01 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 1. Nivarana Pabba or 'section on hindrances' There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. There are 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivaranas or hindrances or obstructions. 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obsturction by sense-desire) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by malevolence) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth-torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana(obs. by upset-worry) 5. vicikiccha nivarana (obstruction by suspicion or sceptical doubt) What do they obstruct? They obstruct reaching magga naana. They hinder arising of magga nana. But they are not self. They are just dhamma. 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivarana or obstructions are 1. It is present now. 2. It is not present now. 3. It arises anew because of unwise attention. 4. It vanishes temporarily because of wise attention. 5. It is eradicated because of higher naana (magga naana). So there are 25 contemplations. Is this possible to note in such a way while meditators are still not ariyas? Mahasatipatthana sutta describes all that can be done. The last contemplation is for ariya of different stages. Because they do know that when magga naana arises 'permanent vanishment of nivarana'. So that permanent eradication is noted by respective ariyas and for puthujana or ordinary people or beings they just note that if sotapatti/ sakadagami/ anagami / arahatta magga arise so and so nivarana will be eradicated. So they will be doing dhammanupassana on nivarana with sutamaya (learned) and cintamaya (thought out) wisdom as the 5th contemplation on nivarana. As there are 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances then there are 25 contemplations on nivarana or obstructions or hindrances. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47465 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Azita > My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind > > everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet > apply > > to us* guess. > Azita; at times, I react with a degree of frustration at some of the > above suttas simply bec. I know it doesn't relate to me and if I took > them at word value then I would think that the Path was very easy. > Many, I think, are addressed to ariyans, not us worldlings. Ph: Actually, I thought after posting that I had misworded it a but. They do apply to us in that we can read them and reflect on them and understand our ignorance a little better. I find that strangely liberating - takes a load off. For example, when I read the fire sutta ("world is burning through the eye" etc and the anatta sutta, in which it is said that there is no self that can cause desired states to arise, and then see in both suttas that it is only the ariyan who develops revulsion, dispassion etc it is certainly sobering. But it also allows me to relax and not press too hard for results. We know what we *can* know, not what we *want* to know. We know what we can, we do what we can. There is no reason to fret. "You have no trouble," A Sujin says at one point. When we get stressed or feels frustration related to Dhamma it is akusala. So I would say that the path *is* easy, and if it isn't we're going about it the wrong way - easy as long as know our limits. > I like K.Sujin's 'ocean of concepts' and that wisdom is the island > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > Khanti - patience - is. Ph: I like when someone (Sarah?) points out that khanti doesn't mean patience in the ordinary sense of putting up with difficult people and situations - that's all about stories and there is sure to be akusala involved - but rather not wanting to shift the attention from whatever object is arising, being patient with the present reality - to whatever degree we know it, of course. > Which brings me to the point I realy want to > discuss. > I was thinking about my interactions with friends and the certain > relationships I have with them. That I have expectations of them and > if those expectations are not met then something doesn't feel right. > But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would > be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with > compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc Ph: Azita, I think it was you who so forcefully encourages us in that "there is no Nina" talk that we really must get it at the beginning, though only intellectually, that there are no people in Dhamma reality terms. Don't you find that intellectual knowledge helps you to let go of expectation re people even as it doesn't interfere with the arising of compassion, friendliness, concern for them? I really feel this aspect of Dhamma is win-win. We let go of disappointments re people, but preseve our capacity to care for them, help them. At least we move in that direction. I certainly still get pissed off at people and sometimes imagine them exploding! (Sorry, bad timing with the London tragedy, but it's true! Expecially noisy motorcyclists.) But those are just accumulations of irritation that will continue to keep arising for a long time. That can't be controlled. So the patience is with the arising of these conditioned realities, not with the people I am dealing with. (Actually, imagining annoying people exploding is akusala kamma patha so I think I will be a little less patient with that.) > I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion > when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is > the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience > and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only > grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can > compassion whn there are no conditions for it. Ph: Yes that's one of those suttas that is just so profound. There are so many of them. I so often feel in awe of the depth of the Buddha's wisdom. All the literature of the world pales in comparison in my opinion. Shakespeare now reads like Harold Robbins. > > So, on and on I puddle/muddle seemingly expecting more from the > conventional realities than from paramattha dhammas but there is > little panna to know - right now I guess its just a whole mob of > moha. here's another line for our hit song 'mo,mo,mo haha' panna moha mana MANA moha moha mo moha moha mo mo moha sati panna PING! This is turning into a good song, Azita! Metta, Phil 47466 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Kel As you know, I kind of gassed my way through your questions below in a very uncertain way. That afternoon, I heard something from A. Sujin that made me feel quite pleased by my inability to answer them! It was this: "As long as we cannot know the moment of satipatthana, it's impossible just to say that we understand satipatthana." So the reason I couldn't really answer your questions is that I *cannot* answer them, I have not accumualted enough understanding, rather than that I *do not know* the answers...if you see what I mean. Will that stop me from giving my opinions about satipatthana instead of asking questions and listening? We'll see. Giving a gassy (ie not rooted in real understanding) opinion and having it gently pointed out the way you did to me is helpful. Please keep an eye on me and ask these sort of questions when you see that I am being particularly gassy. Metta, Phil > Hi Phil, > > > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > > daily life. > > A few questions: > > 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? > 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? > 3) How do you know if it's not mana? > > - kel 47467 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Nina, and all > > Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always > > detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to > > detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, > > there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. > --- > N: Yes, I catch myself having attachment to the idea of detachment. I listen > to tapes while I am copying for Sarah, and I hear: there is lobha all the > time. Even kusala: it is for our own sake. Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was careless wording on her part. (BTW, as an ESL teacher struggling with Japanese students who just never seem to get it, I am amazed how accurately you and A. Sujin use English, which is not your native language, to discuss subtle, abstract points. Especially A. Sujin, since English is so radically different from Thai.) I don't know how there can be detachment from the beginning. I think there can only be rare moments of it as Ken says above. I'm glad to be reminded that there is detachment with all kusala moments. This helps us understand how rare kusala is. There is certainly not detachment when we do something that we think is wholesome, in the conventional sense, because it is all about us being wholesome. I am not discouraged by the rarity of kusala - I'm grateful that I've come to understand this instead of plunging ahead merrily in imitation kusala. > I wrote to Phil about the beneficial condition of reading suttas, and Phil > responded: but there should be no expectations. > When I am not in the right frame of mind, I do not always like to hear such > things, I have some moments of irritation, like Phil also had. Dan said, > that is a good thing. Right. > First there is irritation, and then we see that the right point was hit. Ph: Yes, very interesting to see which points get hit. Sometimes it can't be seen, of course. The irritation is general and pervasive and wraps around the whole day. Thanks to the Buddha's teaching I have been able to more often remember that caring about this irritation is just all about putting too much emphasis on self. > I am grateful to all Dhamma friends who remind me! At first we believe that > there is pure kusala, that there is mindfulness, but then we learn that > there is a form of lobha we take for kusala. Lobha can also be accompanied > by indifferent feeling, and then it is hard to notice it. > I have to understand that there are many more moments of lobha than kusala. > Theoretically I understand, but, as to the level of practice, not yet. > Expectations do enter. Ph: And there is also wholesome chanda at times, and samvega, and wholesome virya, and other kusala cetasikas. Because you have developed right understanding (I think) you don't cling to them as much as one would otherwise and are able to speak about all your lobha. Thus the kusala comes, it sneaks up and arises through you and is accumulated because you are not trying for it, not clinging to it. Well, of course you're clinging to it a lot of the time. But because you don't make an intentional effort to have kusala, you are more likely to have kusala. When there is an intentional effort to have kusala, how on earth can there be anything other than lobha involved? I just don't get that. Is the lobha that is involved in the intentional effort somehow transformed and nulified by the intentionally generated kusala? It just falls away, is shed like wate? I don't think so. It seems to me that the whole exercise would have to be all about lobha. But I am just saying that off the top of my head. I would be happy to know that I am wrong about that. A bit off topic there...I use "you" there instead of my usual "we"...but it's not about Nina, of course. There is no Nina in Dhamma reality, only the arising of right understanding, clinging, mana, metta and so on and so on and so on.... Metta, Phil 47468 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:27am Subject: To Sarah & All... balancing_life Hi Sarah Thank you very much for your kind understanding and also thanks very much for sharing with me, your knowledge & wisdom about Lord Buddha's teachings. Just to explain, the very first thing that i did after reading Buddhism books were not to take lives, and that meant to me to become a vegetarian, but unfortunately although i love vegetables, i failed, cos although i do not order pork, beef, mutton or chickens for my meals, i still cannot resist eating KFC, fish meat, prawns, cockles, cuttlefish & squid...and if some of them came along with the foods i ordered, i had to finish them off, as it has been ingrained in me by my mum, since very young to finish everything that is on my plate or else in my next life, i wouldn't have anything to eat. (There was once in this documentary about the starving Indians or Afghanistanans, that they were sweeping the floor & the lorry, with a broom & dustpan, coupled with dust, after the staff of a rice house, had finished carrying sacks of rice from a lorry to the shophouse, leaving behind rice that had seeped out of the rice sacks...so pathetic.) I once asked a Mahayana monk about this, and he said not to worry about it, as i am just a "layperson", but he advised me only to buy only cooked food or "dressed" chickens, ie, not to give an order to slaughter, "live" chickens, cattle, goats, pigs, prawns, etc. In Islam, pork is definitely out of the menu and they are not allowed to go close to pigs & dogs, and speaking about dogs, there is one time, a pet dog was missing and it was found to be cooked and eaten by a group of illegal Vietnamese immigrants living somewhere in the vincinity and when asked why they did it, they said they were hungry and had nothing to eat...so pitiful. In Islam, pork & dogs are called "Haram", meaning "illegal" and food & other stuff that is not meant for the Muslims, have a sign that says "Tidak Halal", meaning "Not Kosher". To get this "Halal" sign, they must ask the Islamic court department to inspect the place, like in Hotels & some restaurants to give them the OK. And Muslims can buy "dressed" chickens only from Malay shops/hawker stalls, as before the chickens are killed, the slaughterer of the chickens, will utter an islamic phrase, before making a cut on their throats, and as such they are not permitted to buy any chickens from other races, as it is considered "Non Halal". Fyi, most hotels and all McDonald & KFC franchises are "Halal" or else they won't be permitted to operate here in Malaysia...even most chicken, mutton or beef sausages sold in the supermarkets are "Halal", as there is a sign or a chop on it and if there is no sign of that, Muslims are not allowed to buy it or else they will be sectioned off in a "Non-Halal" section. When i first read about the precept of not taking lives, including insects, at first i was also so depressed that we are not allowed to kill mosquitoes that are sucking my blood, but just to brush them away, and also that means also not to kill cockroaches, but having the experience of the foul smelling creature, if they were given the chance to multiply, they will quickly infest the whole house, and each time that i see one crossing my path, i would kill it, whilst uttering "Om Mani PadMe Hum"...hmmm, definitely so unBuddhist of me, but i've got no choice. And after reading all those Buddhism books, my anger has more or less dissapatied, although i do feel hurt & dissapointed with ManKind, whenever people are angry with me or when Buddhism yahoo groups members fight amongst themselves, and fyi, i have never in my life, had a verbal fight or otherwise, with anyone in my life. My depression is not about the anger, with the ones who caused my niece's death, but about my own regrets, about not knowing more or being closer to my nieces, that they can approach me, if they have any problems...as i said earlier, i always thought they would be here forever, ie, that they would outlive me...it's just that i do not understand why kids, just at the age of 12, would do such a thing? (just wondering, what is the reason they did this, when my niece is such a nice kid...not to say that, just b'cos that she is my niece, that i would say that, but i sorta know my niece's character and attitude by now, since they have been staying with me on alternate Friday nites & i have been chaffeuring them, for more than five years). Her sister would start sweeping my apartment & cleaning the windows & glass doors, whenever she comes to stay with me...not that i had ever even asked her, but she did it on her own...guess it's her hobby to do so. Luckily, i do not have any kids, or else i would literally go insane, if they were to pass on before me, eventhough i am a Buddhist & know that i am supposed to be detached or to have no attachment to anything or anybody. A very sad story indeed , about a mother's grief that you told me about, carrying her child's ashes with her...inconsolable grief. My brother...anger yes, definitely, cos she was his favourite loved one, although he loved all his daughters in the same way, but she, being the first born and being able to communicate with him in a special way, have contributed more to his loss, grief & pain...his loss is irreplaceable and yes i know the story about a woman's child who died and asked Buddha to revive her (or something like that) and Buddha has asked her to get a mustard leaf or is it a seed from a home that has never faced any deaths in a family before, and she came back empty handed & realised that deaths in a family, is inevitable. Let us say, that sadly, my brother is a person, who would "cut off his nose, in order to spite his face" and anybody who has "stepped on his tail", would be severely "punished" & that is why he is reminding them yearly, which i feel the money of just a day's advertisement, (it costs him about RM2,000 or USD 500), could be put to a better use...more than a month's salary, in my case. There is no use in talking or persuading him otherwise and the other day, as i told you about how i met my father's neighbours recently, and mentioned it to him, he was very angry with me and in an angry tone, asked me why in the world, would i want to remind him of his grief, loss & pain and talking about it, would it be of any use to him and told me that he already knows the story and asked me back, if i wanted to know the names of the people involved...after which, i kept quiet/silent. It's just that he still has "attachement" to her and is still unable to "let go" yet, since she died in such a tragic circumstance...if she passed away, due to an illness, then he probably would not feel that way...as Muslims would say, "Insyallah", meaning "God's Will" or in Buddhist terms, Karma/Kamma, Fate/Fated, Destiny or Kismet. Like you, Sarah, eversince i have been a very young gal, a pre- schooler, i was not like the normal kids, meaning, i would sit down on a rattan chair after my dinner at 5pm, in the garden and my favourite past-time would be looking at the clouds, watching them changing shapes, as they rolled away in the skies, and i would wonder why on earth i was put on Earth for, ie, for what purpose...very deep thinking for a kindergartener, isn't it, and when i found Buddhism, i at last, wondered no more...i think that i must have been a Buddhist, in my last life as well. Ok, gotto go and don't worry about me...my depression is about other things now, as i feel that i have used up all my good Karma and is now reaping my bad Karma, but Buddhism has helped me to understand that nothing is forever and everything is just temporary and not permanent...well, i hope so...so when you don't hear from me anymore or that i have unsubscribed from here, then expect the worst scenario. I kept telling my friend, who knows about my problem that i am facing rite now, (which is beyond & out of my control) that i wanted to commit suicide to escape this suffering that i am facing rite now and he advised me not to, and to watch "Constantine" by Keenanu Reavees, saying that if i were to do so, i won't be re-incarnated and what is keeping from doing that, is in my next life, it would be worse than this life, that i am having now...so again don't worry, as i do not want to suffer anymore sufferings in the future, but just to accept this suffering in this life, no matter how bad it is going to be...and as for me, this life of mine has ended, before it has even began. With Metta to all members, :} AliceInAlwaysInOptimisticLand Hi Alice, Thank you for your kind email letters. I enjoy discussing the Dhamma with you and I'm very glad to see your discussion with RobM as well. <...> 47469 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was > careless wording on her part. (BTW, as an ESL teacher struggling > with Japanese students who just never seem to get it, I am amazed > how accurately you and A. Sujin use English, which is not your > native language, to discuss subtle, abstract points. Especially A. > Sujin, since English is so radically different from Thai.) I don't > know how there can be detachment from the beginning. ++++++++++ Dear Phil, I don't think there was any error in wording by A. Sujin. The path is always associated with alobha- detachment- and wisdom. If it is not it is something else, some other path. This is even at the very weakest level, when detachment and wisdom may be weak. Consider what Jon wrote today: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: """Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. I think this would be a mistake. Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are."" endqoute Jon. Robert Jon 47470 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:30am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.7 Kamma (2) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: ___________________________________________ MAHINDA e-CORRESPONDENCE COURSE Basic Paper 2 MODULE 2.7 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (2) The Laws of Cosmic Order Although Buddhism teaches that Kamma is the chief cause of the inequalities in the world yet it does not teach fatalism or the doctrine of predestination, for it does not hold the view that everything is due to past actions. The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, or one of the five orders (Niyamas), which are laws in themselves and operate in the universe. They are: 1. Utu Niyama, physical inorganic order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The inerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., belong to this group. 2. Bija Niyama, order or germs and seeds (physical organic order) e.g., rice produced from rice seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. 3. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Kamma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the moon and stars. 4. Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature, the reason for being good and so forth may be included in this group. 5. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, telepathy, telesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading, all psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science are included in this class. Abhidhammavatara, pg 54 These five orders embrace everything in the world and every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by them. They being laws in themselves require no lawgiver and Kamma as such is only one of them. Classification of Kamma Kamma is classified into four kinds according to the time at which results are produced. There is Kamma that ripens in the same lifetime, Kamma that ripens in the next life, and Kamma that ripen in successive births. These three types of Kamma are bound to produce results, as a seed is to sprout. But for a seed to sprout, certain auxiliary causes such, as soil, rain etc. are required. In the same way, for a Kamma to produce an effect, several auxiliary causes such as circumstances, surroundings, etc., are required. It sometimes happens that for want of such auxiliary causes Kamma does not produce any result. Such Kamma is called Ahosi-Kamma or "Kamma that is ineffective". Kamma is also classified into another four kinds according to its particular function. 1. There is Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma which conditions the future birth; 2. Supportive (Upatthambhaka). Kamma which assists or maintains the result of already-existing Kamma, 3. Counteractive (Upapilaka) Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, and 4. Destructive (Upaghataka) Kamma, which destroys the force of existing Kamma and substitutes its own resultants. There is another classification according to the priority of results. 1. There is Serious or Weighty (Garuka) Kamma, which produces its resultants in the present life or in the next. On the moral side of this Kamma the highly refined mental states called Jhanas or Absorptions are weighty because they produce resultants more speedily than the ordinary unrefined mental states. On the opposite side, the five kinds of immediately effective serious crimes are weighty. These crimes are: matricide, patricide, the murder of an Arahanta (Holy One or perfect saint), the wounding of a Buddha and the creation of a schism in the Sangha. 2. Death-proximate (Asanna) Kamma is the action which one does at the moment before death either physically or mentally - mentally by thinking of one's own previous good or bad actions or having good or bad thoughts. It is this Kamma, which, if there is no weighty Kamma, determines the conditions of the next birth. 3. Habitual (Acinna) Kamma is the action which one constantly does. This Kamma, in the absence of death-proximate Kamma, produces and determines the next birth. 4. Reserved (Katatta) Kamma is the last in the priority of results. This is the unexpended Kamma of a particular being and it conditions the next birth if there is no habitual Kamma to operate. A further classification of Kamma is according to the place, in which the results are produced, namely:- 1. Immoral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of misery. Immoral Kamma is rooted in greed (Lobha) anger (Dosa) and delusion (Moha). There are ten immoral actions (Kamma)-namely killing, stealing, unchastity (these three are caused by deed); lying, slandering, harsh speech, frivolous talk (these four are caused by speech); covetousness, ill-will and false view (these three are caused by mind). 2. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of the world of desires. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the plane of desires:- There are ten moral actions - namely generosity (Dana), morality (Sila), Meditation (Bhavana), reverence (Apacayana), service (Veyyavacca), transference of merit (Pattidana), rejoicing in others' merit (Pattanumodana), hearing the doctrine (Dhammasavana), expounding the doctrine (Dhammadesana), and forming correct views (Ditthijukamma). 3. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of form. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the planes of form. It is of five types which are purely mental, and done in the process of meditation, viz:- a. The first stage of Jhana or absorption which has five constituents: initial application, sustained application, rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. b. The second stage of Jhana, which occurs together with sustained application, rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. c. The third stage of Jhana which occurs together with rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. d. The fourth stage of Jhana, which occurs together with happiness and one-pointedness of mind. e. The fifth stage of Jhana, which occurs together with equanimity and one-pointedness of mind. 4. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of the formless. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the formless planes. It is of four types, which are also purely mental and done in the process of meditation, viz: a. Moral consciousness dwelling in the infinity of space. b. Moral consciousness dwelling in the infinity of consciousness. c. Moral consciousness dwelling on nothingness. d. Moral consciousness wherein perception is so extremely subtle that it cannot be said whether it is or is not. Questions 1. Why not everything is due to Kamma? 2. What kind of kamma takes effect in the following situation? a. A person work very hard and he then gained fame and riches. b. In his previous life, he is a merciless murderer but repent at his death bed and determine to make amend if he is given another opportunity to be reborn a human again. He is now a man again but born cripple. c. He can remember his past life. Answers (Module 2.6) 1. In the Law of Kamma, good beget good, bad beget bad, and then good plus bad will beget what effect? The Law of Kamma does not directly neutralize the effect of bad deeds with a good deed. One cannot escape form the punishment of murdering by performing a lot of generosity (except in the case of bribery which is short term escapism). The impact of bad deeds will give rise to bad effects and the same goes to the impact of good deeds. These explained all the inequalities of life why some people are born rich but a fool while some poor but wise. 2. What are the major similarities and differences between the aw of Kamma and the Theory of the Creator God? Similarities: a. They are like a judge for our action. b. Both teach us the lessons of what is wholesome and what is unwholesome and the effects of good deeds as well as bad deeds. Differences: d. The Law of Kamma have no mercy to forgive one's wrong action while the God accordingly is full of love, compassion and can decide to over rule the judgement if one repents. e. The Law of Kamma decide how you are born in this world (be it in a favourable condition or unfavourable state of living depending on your past action) while the Creator God creates one with the intention one may follows His rules, believes in Him and later accepted into His Kingdom. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 47471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! nilovg Hi Colette, op 08-07-2005 16:53 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > colette: True, however you are apperently trying to asert that the > eye can only see a single sight, the ear can only hear a single > sound, etc. The mind has the choice to DISCRIMINATE AGAINST AND FOR > therefore when you say "seeing is one citta" you should be making > that statement more clear to the neophyte by reminding them of the > difficulty involved here since the eye sees more than a single sight. ------ N: The eye does not see, it is the base of seeing consciousness. The eye is rupa, it does not know anything. it does not know:' I am eyebase'. Some cittas see, others have judgements, are attached, have aversion or react with wisdom. There is only one citta at a time. ---------- > colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as > your brain cells .. ______ N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. ---------- > colette: > You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then > say that they are carried to the next citta. ------ N: No. I did not mean that. The inclinations, tendencies, memories are carried on from moment to moment. But there is constant change. New accumulations are added, and there can also be a wearing away of bad tendencies. You can verify in your life that you remember, that you learn. There must be conditions for that. ------- C:Since I think I made my > point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth > --------------------- N: This is about material phenomena, and different from what is mental. Your simile suggests something that lasts. --------- > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta is of no value to > the knowledge once it has been learned. > --------------------- N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the citta. ------- > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > since the begining of time/history. > ---------------------------------- N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. ------- > C: No offense taken, just as I hope you do not take offense at my words > which are rather straight forward. ------- N: Not at all, I like straightforward remarks. Nina. 47472 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:10am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , philofillet Hi Herman Thanks for waiting...you brought up a really interesting point for me...this idea that the teaching of elemental realities is a kind of papanca. I'd never thought about that. > > The following is an excerpt from the article on papanca from > Nyanatiloka's dictionary (snip) To be honest, I didn't read it - saving wear and tear on the old eyes - but I think I understand papanca from the honeyball sutta, at least in a general way. It's a fascinating topic. Rob M mentionned a book devoted to the topic. I'd like to read it. > It is clear from the section I quoted above that nibbana and papanca > are opposites. Ph: Oops I missed reading the aprt about nibbana. I'll tell you right now that nibbana is something that I hardly ever reflect on. I know it means cessation, the fuel is used up, the fire stops buring, there is an extinguishing. That is so far from my present reality... On the other hand, I've learned that we experience nibbana at each stage of enlightenment, so there is a taste of nibbana long before the ultimate cessation. Anyways, yes, I can see what you mean. In a way papanca and nibbana are opposites. The former is about formationas being spun on the frantically spinning loom of samsara, the latter is cessation of all that jazz. > > Compare that to the 37 things that lead to enlightenment, or the great > lists of namas and rupas that some suggest are essential to seek out > and know, and there you have my perplexion. Are there two Buddhisms, > one for those who do not even seek to discriminate between seeing and > hearing, and one for those who are inclined to know every phenomenon > according to any number of criteria? Ph: This is the really interesting point. I think that the 37 factors of enlightement and the survey of paramattha dhammas do indeed lead to papanca when we first encounter them. I think the 37 enlightenment factors are more likely to continue to cause unwholesome proliferation because they are so attractive and we cling to them so. The descriptions of right effort and satipatthana (the seven day plan!) are so attractive. It is harder to cling to subtle cetasikas and bhavanga cittas and so on. But yet, we think about them and think about them and that is proliferation. But the point of paramattha dhammas is anatta, and that's where the peace comes in. I think I am probably just fooling myself, as my friend James suggested, but I find such peace in understanding intellectually that all is not-self, arising due to conditions. The more we reflect on this and the deeper we understand the less we struggle to figure things out, the more content we become with present realities (conditions, situations, circumstances whatever.) I think this is particularly true when we remember that we *cannot understand or know most cetasikas* We have to know our limits. As A. Sujin said about anusayas (accumulations) "we cannot understand anusayas like Buddha, but we know there *is* anusayas as long as lokuttara citta does not arise. Is that not enough?" That could apply to any paramattha dhamma. It usually *isn't* enough. We try to understand more than we are capable of, and the peace of mind is gone. In that case, yes, all these detailed teachings would only lead to more proliferation. > It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising > acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that > promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which > supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To me, > it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are not > elements, there is .......... Ph: Yes, I think we agree there. The point is that we shouldn't try too hard to understand the details. Understanding will arise in a conditioned way, "panna will work its way" as I heard today, or it won't. So the "analyzing" is *not* required - we tend to do too much of it, but we can let it go. BTW, what comes after the "there is...." above? Nibbana? Are you a believer in "nibbana now?" What do you take that to mean? I think there can certainly be calm now, peace of mind now, thanks to the Buddha's teaching of anatta, though there is more likely to be a kind of clinging to some kind of calm. But I don't understand this "nibbana now." Over to you, Herman :) Metta, Phil 47473 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 200 - 201 buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. Message # 1173. Dear Tep, The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and vitakka. 200. How are feelings recognized as they arise (katham viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti?), recognized as they appear (established) (vidita upathahanti?), recognized as they subside? (vidita abbhattham gacchanti?) How is the arising of feeling recognized? (kathem vedanaaya uppaado vidito hoti?) The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance (avijja) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving (tanhaa) there is the arising of feeling. With the arising of action (kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact (phassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic of generation (nibbatti lakkhanam passato), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized (evam vedanaaya uppaado vidito hoti). How is the appearance of feeling recognized? (katham vedanaaya upatthaanam veditam hoti?) When he gives attention [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance (establishment) as exhaustion is recognized (aniccato manasikaroto khayatupatthaanam vidito hoti); when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized (dukkhato manasikaroto bhayatupatthaanam vidito hoti); when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized (anattato manasikaroto sunnatupatthaanam vidito hoti). This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized (evam vedanaaya upatthaanam viditam hoti). How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? (katham vedanaaya atthangamo vedito hoti?) The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance (avijja) there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving (tanhaa) there is a cessation of feeling . With the cessation of action (kamma) there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact (phassa) there is a cessation of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic of change (viparinaama lakkhanam passato), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. (evam vedanaaya atthangamo vedito hoti) This is how feelings are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside (evam viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti, vidita upathahanti, vidita abbhattham gacchanti). [To repeat with sannaaa and vitakka] khayatupatthaanam = khaya-upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as exhaustion bhayatupatthaanam = bhaya- upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as terror sunnatupatthaanam = sunna-upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as voidness ---------------------------- As regards your Notes: "It is also important to recognize that even the first object, long in- & out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity as described in para 194 (the Thai version says that when upekkha is established, cognizance will move away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths)." and "We may also say that the first vatthu of anapanasati can be employed to condition sati and sampajanna to arise with equanimity. At this point I would say the bhikkhu has developed both samatha and vipassana." -------------------- Han: Are you sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity? As far as I know the equanimity comes onlywith fourth jhaana at the end of second tetrad, not at this early stage. Yes, it will develop both samatha and vipassanaa at this stage, but not upekkhaa. Not yet. I also look at para 194 as you have suggested. But I do not find "upekkhaa" there. Even at the beginning of second tetrad the five jhaana factors of the first jhaana are (vitakka, vicaara, piti, sukha and ekaggataa) and not (vitakka, vicaara, piti, sukha and upekkhaa). Because upekkhaa does not arise together with sukha, and sukha is replaced by upekkhaa in fourth jhaana. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ============== ---------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ============== > > From: han tun > Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - > 199. (message # 1111) > > Dear Tep, > > I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy > understanding. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > 47474 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 200 - 201/ Reply buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG members - The following email is my reply to Han Tun's inquiry. Best wishes, Tep ======== Dear Han {and other SariputtaDhamma Friends} - Thank you again, very much, for your consistency and quality of help. Because of your caution <"Are you sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity? As far as I know the equanimity comes only with fourth jhaana at the end of second tetrad, not at this early stage." and "I also look at para 194 as you have suggested. But I do not find "upekkhaa" there".> I was prompted to review para 194 again. You were right, the short paragraph 194 does not show 'upekkha' -- actually, it was my typo. The paragraph number was wrong! Please change it to para 195. The word 'equanimity' (upekkha) is in the last sentence of para 195: "As, through gladness (pamojja vasena), he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate), his cognizance turns away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths, and equanimity is established". I am sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity because of the above sentence. But I am not clear whether this upekkha is the jhana factor or not. Can it be the neutral state that is temporarily free from lobha, dosa and moha -- but not yet the jhanic factor? With great appreciation and respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, > 200 - 201. Message # 1173. > > Dear Tep, > > The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the > Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on > paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and > vitakka. > 47475 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Good suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't have a complementary to the whole Patisambhidamagga. However, I will try to search for an answer elsewhere. Yours truly, Tep = = = = = = --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Regarding how to recognize perception, by suggesting sign as perception > I wasn't confining it to the sign of concentration, but any sign. > Actually, I was thinking about movies. It seems to me that a movie is > packed full of signs of pleasure and pain. A more subtle case would be > signs of passion in music. Do you have access to a commentary on para. > 201? I think we need more info on how to recognize recognition > (perception). > > Larry 47476 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thanks for doing a good job in clarifying certain issues. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jon Yes, Jon, it does. Best wishes, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Time for my week-end burst of activity again ;-)). > >(snipped) > > > >Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". > > > > Jon: > Panna is a mental factor that knows directly or understands. However, there are different levels or degrees of knowing. The panna that arises with moments of samatha bhavana knows directly, for example, the kusala or akusala nature of mind states. Only the panna that arises at moments of insight development knows the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, that is, its nature as a nama or rupa, or its specific characteristic, or the characteristics that it shares in common with all other conditioned dhammas (anicca, dukkha, anatta). > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jon 47477 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/10/05 2:04:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: On the topic of similies/analogies like the Great Physician, there are many in the Dhamma as you know and the thought sometimes arises about how much we should read into them. Take the one of the teaching of Dhamma being the Lion's Roar. A lion's roar is something that stops you in your tracks and makes the hairs on your neck stand on end. In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions (despite what volition wills). ======================= One's current volition is one condition out of many, many conditions, and is not controlling, though, as all conditions, it bears influence. As for "my" volition, as you have properly pointed out, there is no "one" who wills - there is just the impulsion. The only sense in which there is "my" volition is that of distinguishing between "this" namarupic stream from "that". That last point is an interesting one, though. What makes this stream "mine" and that stream "yours"? I remember as a child mulling over again and again and again what I considered a great, great mystery of identity that I couldn't unravel: "Why am "I", I? Why am "I" not him?" There is a strangeness to so-called personal identity that I picked up on, a sensing that I now think was a vague realization of its illusoriness. But that illusoriness is not a simple matter. It is very, very deep and truly inexplicable, because at the very same time that there is no way to get a handle on this seeming separateness, there is yet a clear distinguishing of "this" mindstream from all others. There are levels and levels to no-self, I think, and mystery upon mystery, and from time to time we get to grasp just the tiniest pieces of what anatta is all about. I toy with the idea that all separate identities are illusions that are based on a misapprehension of one great mystery that is real but is as insubstantial and elusive as anything can be. I suspect, and some will consider this heretical, that there *is* a dynamic, multi-faced, ultimately indescribable and ungraspable suchness - an impersonal "field", neither you nor me nor this nor that, that is timeless, unconditioned, without stain, without limit, and real, the one and only true reality, but a reality that is empty of all conditions and of anything by which it could be truly characterized - nothing holy, just "vast emptiness rolling on," the ultimate emptiness: nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47478 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I made a silly error in the previous message (see below). I had typed "complementary"; it was meant to be "commentary" instead. A good news - I have found a computer CD of the Thai version of Patisambhidhamagga with Commentary ! It is quite a long document to study (not just for reading through). So we will have many more thought sharing for many more months to come. Yours truly, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > Good suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't have a complementary to the > whole Patisambhidamagga. However, I will try to search for an answer > elsewhere. > > Yours truly, > > Tep > 47479 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/05 6:17:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: " ... But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in worldlings. I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. -------------------------------------------- If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever awakening. ------------------------------------- What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. --------------------------------------- Howard: A moot point. I don't regard it so. -------------------------------------- You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. --------------------------------------- Howard: Really! Of course I don't regard the unwholesome as harmless. Moreover, I don't regard it as a by-product of moving in the right direction. Wholesome states are such a by-product. --------------------------------------- I think this would be a mistake. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, me too. ----------------------------------- Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) ------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! -------------------------------------- that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are. --------------------------------------- Howard: And continuing that thought: Since there will be such moments, there is no practice to engage in - case closed. I say false premiss, false conclusion. As computer geeks say: GIGO. --------------------------------------- I of course agree with the point you often make that we have to begin where we are (that is, as relatively deluded, kilesa-ridden individuals), but I see this as meaning that the moments of actual insight development will be few and far between. I do not see it as meaning that we should feel free to pursue a particular practice knowing that it will involve frequent moments of akusala. ------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, boy! ;-)) ------------------------------------ Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47480 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:15am Subject: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Dear Jon ( and Howard) - Jon (to Howard in #47479): Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. ------------------------------------------ Tep: I have followed your dialog with Howard with appropriate attention. That is, I pay attention only to the points of discussion that are conducive to wisdom and gladness, and I simply ignore anything else that is not beneficial to my learning for clearer understanding. This strategy of listening is one aspect of 'yoniso-manasikara'. The choice to ignore something(akusala) and to pay attention to something else (kusala) is a 'cetana'. Cetana is action. Without cetana to choose the right dhamma, how can there be appropriate attention? Without yoniso- manasikara how can be arising of kusala dhammas? Indeed intention (cetana) may be kusala or akusala. But when guided by yoniso-manisikara, we don't end up in akusala vipaka. Only when we are perfect in sila, then other kusala mental states like samadhi and panna would follow with no intention - i.e. an "act of will" is not needed - as stated in the following sutta. "For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse. ... ... "For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure. ... ... ... "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are. ... ... ... "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release. [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] Tep : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida0 -- > Dispassionate (Viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist mind how to practice in order to become cunsummate in virtues. Whether you want to or not, is another issue (but not for discussion). Best wishes, Tep ==== > > In a message dated 7/10/05 6:17:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@n... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. > Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: > > " ... But paying attention to > what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an > ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." > 47481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, I shall answer later on, I have guests tomorrow. Yes, I have Co on perception and would like to say something, but the time! Nina. op 10-07-2005 01:48 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is > how the appearance of feeling is recognized." > > Hi again Tep and Nina, > > Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of > a sign? > 47482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, op 10-07-2005 14:31 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was > careless wording on her part. ) I don't know how there can be detachment from the beginning. ------- N: I add something to what Rob said. I think it is helpful to understand first the difference between sati and forgetfulness. Difficult point, for me too! I like to discuss this. Perhaps you can add. We are usually forgetful while we walk around, looking at the table, or a cup, or a diamond. When our objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala citta, mostly with lobha. But our listening to tapes, discussions or reading of suttas may have sunk in and can condition unexpectedly a moment of understanding one object through one doorway. Then there is a level of sati, sati with intellectual understanding stemming from listening, or sati with direct understanding. It does not matter and if we mind, there is lobha to an idea we have of sati. When we begin to realize that it is only visible object that can be seen, not a diamond, there is some detachment at that moment. Someone bluntly said: satipatthana takes the spice out of life. As laypeople we do not have to abstain from things of beauty, but in a way it is true that knowing that only visible object is seen, does bring a degree of detachment, right from the beginning. But momentary. Only for that moment. Also the development of the Path is momentary. Thus, how do we see the world? Only objects as they appear separately through the six doors. But this is the result of a development, still far off. ------ Nina. 47483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta nilovg Dear Htoo, As I understood, citta only produces rupa at the first submoment, at its arising moment. See Visuddhimagga XX, 31, citta is weak at the moments of its presence and its dissolution. The patisandhi-citta does not produce rupas, only kamma does at that moment, because the first citta in life is too weak to do so. Nina. 47484 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? nilovg Dear Htoo, as I wrote to Rob: The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the Visuddhimagga. Each of these tetrads (groups of four) refers to one each of the four applications of mindfulness. I am very impressed that in Mindfulness of Breathing everything is included. I can quote more if you like. Nina. op 10-07-2005 10:45 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > If mental body is included in kaayanupassana The Buddha would not > have > preached on other satipatthaana of vedanaupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa, > and dhammaanupassanaa. 47485 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon {Attn. all members interested in anapanasati} - This message of yours indicates that we are rapidly reaching the point of marginal return in our discussion of breathing meditation! Jon: I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your post. Tep: I don't mind, Jon. But it might be somewhat better to tell me why you skip the other issues. ------------------------- > Tep: >In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as >follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when >developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations >of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when >developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to >completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & >pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". > >Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together >with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the >samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- >magga & phala development. > Jon: The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. Tep: You are really ambitious. To study the whole Tipitaka might take us the whole lifetime. So we end up doing nothing else but reading, considering, discussing, formulating hypotheses, and disbelieving each other. ----------------------------------- Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. Tep: You might have seen those suttas that focus on the first tetrad only? There are other short suttas I have seen that recommend using breathing meditation to practice calmness, but they are not about the full-blown 4-tetrad version in MN 118 or the Breathing Treatise of the great Arahant Sariputta. Please read Section iii again. If you disbelieve me, at least you should believe the Arahant's words. ------------------- Jon: So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? Tep: One of the authoritative voices who can answer your question (to the satisfy your heart desire) is Acariya Buddhaghosa. Similarities with the 40 subjects of samatha meditation are also described in the Visuddhimagga Chapter VIII. Just only the 1st tetrad alone, you would have the 4th jhana as the basis for vipassana to reach Arahantship : "... in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the basis for comprehension of formations [with insight], he can reach Arahantship, the highest fruit." [ para 155, page 263. Vism VIII]. Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may want to consider changing your view above. -------------------------------------------------------- Jon: In SN 54:13 the Buddha describes how a person who is highly developed in both anapanasati and vipassana can attain enlightenment with jhana citta as basis. In other words, he is describing not just samatha and not just vipassana, but the development of both together under very particular circumstances. Tep: It is up to you, Jon, to believe what you want to believe. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > >(snipped) > > Thus the words, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion" should be understood as meaning that when anapanasati is developed and pursued *as set out in the following part of the sutta* (that is to say, in the case of the particular kind of individual there described, together with vipassana) it can bring the four foundations of mindfulness to completion. The following part of the sutta then explains in detail the development leading to the twin attainments of jhana and enlightenment with jhana as basis. > > I am not aware of jhana attained other than by anapanasati being given the same treatment elsewhere in the suttas. So I think SN 54:13 and the other suttas like it are specific to anapanasati, rather than being general to jhana. > > Jon 47486 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Why? With unlimited Karuna, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my > reply and the one you wrote that I replied? > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 47487 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/05 1:02:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, with regard to your saying that an akusala moment during a period of conventional practice (what I called "cultivational activity") is a moment of wrong practice, and any practice that includes akusala moments is not recommended by the Buddha, and hence such activity is not to be engaged in, I replied with the following: And continuing that thought: Since there will be such moments, there is no practice to engage in - case closed. I say false premiss, false conclusion. As computer geeks say: GIGO. I retract that last sentence of mine. It is rude, and I apologize for writing it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47488 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi AndrewT, > > Are you saying you only see anatta when it's akusala vipaka and not > when it's kusala vipaka? :) > > - kel Dear Kel I was really generalising in a "daily life" kind of way. In terms of absolute realities and mind-moments, I don't think I can honestly say that I "see" anatta, just as I can't really say that I "directly know" dhammas. As I understand it, anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and "directly knowing" dhammas must entail "seeing" anatta. But can you see a characteristic without directly knowing a dhamma? What I am doing is probably a lesser thing of intellectually understanding concepts of realities - and because concepts don't have characterisitics, my whole experience mustn't have anything to do with anatta at all!? Does that make sense to you? If so ... help! I expect the times I was referring to (of *not* being 'in control'and realising it) have much akusala and go beyond vipaka; they are times seemingly dominated by dosa ... but maybe with a tiny bit of weak panna too? Kel, if I have confused the life out of you, serves you right for asking! (-: Keep smiling Andrew T 47489 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================= > One's current volition is one condition out of many, many conditions, and > is not controlling, though, as all conditions, it bears influence. As for > "my" volition, as you have properly pointed out, there is no "one" who wills - > there is just the impulsion. The only sense in which there is "my" volition is > that of distinguishing between "this" namarupic stream from "that". That last > point is an interesting one, though. What makes this stream "mine" and that > stream "yours"? I remember as a child mulling over again and again and again what > I considered a great, great mystery of identity that I couldn't unravel: "Why > am "I", I? Why am "I" not him?" There is a strangeness to so-called personal > identity that I picked up on, a sensing that I now think was a vague > realization of its illusoriness. But that illusoriness is not a simple matter. It is > very, very deep and truly inexplicable, because at the very same time that there > is no way to get a handle on this seeming separateness, there is yet a clear > distinguishing of "this" mindstream from all others. There are levels and > levels to no-self, I think, and mystery upon mystery, and from time to time we get > to grasp just the tiniest pieces of what anatta is all about. > I toy with the idea that all separate identities are illusions that are > based on a misapprehension of one great mystery that is real but is as > insubstantial and elusive as anything can be. I suspect, and some will consider this > heretical, that there *is* a dynamic, multi-faced, ultimately indescribable and > ungraspable suchness - an impersonal "field", neither you nor me nor this nor > that, that is timeless, unconditioned, without stain, without limit, and > real, the one and only true reality, but a reality that is empty of all conditions > and of anything by which it could be truly characterized - nothing holy, just > "vast emptiness rolling on," the ultimate emptiness: nibbana. Hi Howard Thanks for sharing these fascinating reflections. If you read my latest post to Kel, you will see that I am in no way qualified to add anything insightful, so I will leave it on the appropriate note of emptiness. (-: And catch up with you later on. Best wishes Andrew T PS I have just seen a booklet entitled "How to be a Contagious Christian". I wonder if there are any contagious Buddhists on DSG? Don't answer that! 47490 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hello again all I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. > I'm glad to be > reminded that there is detachment with all kusala moments. This > helps us understand how rare kusala is. There is certainly not > detachment when we do something that we think is wholesome, in the > conventional sense, because it is all about us being wholesome. It would be better to say that we should accept that there is a lot of mana, lobha, wrong view involved at times, rising mixed with the kusala moments. One act of helping someone with a heavy bag, for example, is a lot more complex than it appears on the surface. There will be mana and lobha accompanying our good deeds at times, but it would be wrong in the way Ajahn Brahm was saying to say that we should stop doing them out of fear of attachment, that's for sure. I didn't mean to imply that. Metta, Phil 47491 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Tep: "A good news - I have found a computer CD of the Thai version of Patisambhidhamagga with Commentary ! It is quite a long document to study (not just for reading through). So we will have many more thought sharing for many more months to come." Hi Tep, This is good news. I look forward to whatever you can share. Larry 47492 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 Hi again Howard and Kel and all I just received in the mail a copy of The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Bh Bodhi and Nyanaponika. This heading caught my eye in the chapter of the sixes: "Advantages of Contemplating Non-self". It reads: "When a monk sees six advantages, it should be enough for him to establish the perception of non-self in all things without exception. What six? 'I shall be aloof from all the world. Notions of 'I' will vanish in me. Notions of 'mine' will vanish in me. I shall be endowed with uncommon knowledge. I shall clearly understand causes and the phenomena arisen from causes." (VI, 104) The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the perceptions of impermanence and non-self." This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the meaning of this, please? Best wishes Andrew T 47493 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi again Howard and Kel and all > > I just received in the mail a copy of The Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha by Bh Bodhi and Nyanaponika. This heading caught my eye in the > chapter of the sixes: "Advantages of Contemplating Non-self". It reads: > > "When a monk sees six advantages, it should be enough for him to > establish the perception of non-self in all things without exception. > What six? 'I shall be aloof from all the world. Notions of 'I' will > vanish in me. Notions of 'mine' will vanish in me. I shall be endowed > with uncommon knowledge. I shall clearly understand causes and the > phenomena arisen from causes." (VI, 104) > > The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to > be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than > merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the > perceptions of impermanence and non-self." > > This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very > last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the > meaning of this, please? > >_______ Dear Andrew, Yes, it should be dukkha (not non-self) for the last word. Robert 47494 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/10/05 11:43:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the perceptions of impermanence and non-self." This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the meaning of this, please? ============================ I agree with you. That must be a typo. The last 'non-self' must have supposed to have been 'dukkha'! (Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe sankhara anicca.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47495 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:27pm Subject: enjoying Sri Lanka nichiconn hi, dsg, Summarizing AN VI.13 -- These, monks, are six properties that are means of escape from: ill will, good will as an awareness-release; viciousness, compassion as an awareness-release; resentment, appreciation as an awareness-release; passion, equanimity as an awareness-release; all signs, the signless as an awareness-release; the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity, the uprooting of the conceit "I am". Someone asked what AN meant and listening to the Sri Lanka mp3's, I wrote/stole: There are 3 baskets of the Pali Canon / Tipitaka: Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma. In the suttanta pitaka are 4 main collections or nikayas (N) [DN - Digha (long), MN - Majjhima (middle), SN - Samyutta (yoked) & AN - Anguttara (factored)] plus the voluminous Khuddhaka (minor) Nikaya wherein the Dhammapada and all sorts of good stuff --jatakas, Milinda & Netti, psalms, joyous sayings, stories other realms.... are found. All the baskets are cornucopic, yet empty, Grasshoppa. This peace is said to be from chapter 12 of the Parivara, the appendix to the Vinaya: "This is the purpose for conversation, this is the purpose for consultation, this is the purpose of apprenticeship, this is the purpose for lending ear: the liberation of the mind through non-clinging." I'm still reading the Visuddhimagga, which is from the Commentarial tradition. As a story, it takes a series of carriage rides to convey Buddha's answer to a deva one night. Just got Pe Maung Tin's translation and finally (after 2 yrs?) can say I've at least turned every page in Nanamoli's with an eye towards reading it along with rushing through the Dispeller & a few other mouthfuls of usually dry commentarial leaves from the baskets. While one does not walk the path, I'd say there is a carriage by summons for those so inclined, but what are 'those'? Everything is just the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, experienced through the six doorways. Awareness is aware of a reality, but do we know the characteristics of the realities the Buddhas say are to be known, the objects of satipatthana? Or which realities are to be developed or abandoned? Sure, lobha is to be eliminated and metta, which can be known thru speech, developed - still, thinking is mostly with lobha and dosa - clinging and aversion, yet who is developing? No self to catch on in all the learning, listening & developing, by degrees, by levels, intellectually and by awareness. It's panna that understands more and more deeply; satipatthana that leads to enlightenment and follows any object/aramanna naturally, without conceptualizations & the attendant proliferations, the papanca - o me, o my. There is no disturbance at all with awareness. Calm always accompanies kusala. Akusala arises even tho we try to avoid it, yet does understanding develop? Can it arise for anything, in the absense of that thing? Ignorance enslaves us - blind, armless miners in kunlin. Heedless, we do not listen when we hear, nor consider if perchance & happenstance we do. It's all conditioned. Dukkha, the real f word, and i'm with the camera guys, f-stop. Shutting out, running away, momentarily (however many lifetimes that might be) suppressing, are but wishing things were other than what has been conditioned to arise now if the effort isn't right. Abhidhamma clarifies our lives as moments of not self, but indifferent rupas and discrete consciousnesses of different jatis, ranges, functions in various conditional relationships. Not my ignorance, just the nama ignorance along with it's supporting conditions arising and falling; each thought moment succeeded by the next to carry the various accumulations. On and on unless and until the final cuti of the arahant. Do we see how much avijja we have? Only visible object can be seen, but what about the idea of seeing things, beings, selves? here a khanda, there a khandha & only paramattha dhammas appear, not conceptual wholes taken out of context and pieced together by more and less arrogant dreamers following unfounded faiths as long as there is not yet enough honestly understanding dhatu: everything is dhamma. I would add: all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, lie gathered in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned their chief. [AN X.15] pahana-kicca, qualities to be abandoned - 1) kamachanda: affection, desire, laxity, infatuation 2) byapada: ill will and hatred 3) thina-middha: discouragement, drowsiness, sloth 4) uddhacca-kukkucca: restlessness and anxiety 5) vicikiccha: doubt, uncertainty, indecision. Dispeller 1174: A bhikkhu who is estab'd in the discernment of formations thus, has sent down his roots into the Ten-Powered One's dispensation and has obtained a foothold. He is a Lesser Stream Enterer (cuula-sotapanna) of assured destiny. But on obtaining such climate, person, food and hearing of the Law as are suitable, in one sitting, in one supreme session he attains Arahatship by applying the 3 characteristics and comprehending the formations with succession of insight. This is the conclusion, as far as Arahatship, for the bhikkhu who does his laying to heart by way of elements. peace. 47496 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Re: accumulations: a refuse heep! nichiconn hi, colette, N: The eye does not see, it is the base of seeing consciousness. The eye is rupa, it does not know anything. it does not know:' I am eyebase'. Some cittas see, others have judgements, are attached, have aversion or react with wisdom. There is only one citta at a time. ---------- connie: citta and the accompanying cetasikas all regard/are occupied with the same, single, object. [jump] > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > since the begining of time/history. > ---------------------------------- N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. ------- > connie: kusala, wholesome, skilled, good, as you like, always has been, is and will be noninjurious, joyous in result bodily, verbal and mental conduct. i guess we might know or measure a person's kusala thru their posturings if we watched them long enough & knew right from wrong ourselves: generosity, virtue, renunciation, discernment, persistence, endurance, truth, determination, good will and equanimity. Well, I am just looking at "the four aspects of skilled determination - discernement, truth, relinquishment and calm - when studied carefully, cover all ten of the perfections" and wondering where I found it, so, butting out, connie 47497 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:16pm Subject: bowling nichiconn Hey, Lisa, Jon & Sarah sent me some crown jewels that should be in your bowl so there's something worth finding when the keys have gone missing. Dispeller 2019: The word-by-word commentary having been completed thus, these ten powers should now be understood to be set forth successively as follows because (1) in the first place the Tathaagata sees with the knowledge of the possible and the impossible the absence of obstruction by defilement which is the possibility (reason) for the attaining or the impossibility (non-reason) for the non-attaining of the destruction of the cankers by teachable beings; this is owing to seeing the possibility (thaana) for mundane right view and owing to seeing the absence of possibility for assured wrong view. (2) Then with the knowledge of kamma result he sees the absence in them of obstruction by kamma result; [402] this is owing to seeing a rebirth-linking with three root-causes. (3) With the knowledge of ways wheresoever going, he sees the absence of obstruction by kamma; this is owing to seeing the absence of kamma with immediate effect. **(4) With the knowledge of the numerous and varying elements, he sees the specific habit (temperament) of those who are thus free from obstructions for the purpose of teaching of the Law suitable [to their habit]; this is owing to seing the diversity of the elements.** (5) Then with the knowledge of different resolves, he sees their resolves; this is for the purpose of teaching the Law according to their disposition even if they have not accepted the means. (6) Then, in order to teach the Law according to the ability and capacity of those whose resolves have been seen in this way, with the knowledge of the disposition of the faculties, he sees the disposition of the faculties; this is owing to seeing the keen and dull state of faith, etc. (7) But owing to disposition of the facultites being fully understood thus, if they are far off then owing to mastery of the first jhaana, etc., he quickly goes to them by means of his distinction in miraculous power; and having gone, seeing (8) the state of their former existences with the knowledge of the recollection of former lives, and (9) the present distinction of consciousness with the knowledge of the penetration of others' minds to be reached owing to the power of the Divine Eye; (10) with the power of the knowledge of destruction of the cankers, he teaches the Law for the destruction of the cankers owing to being rid of delusion about the way that leads to the destruction of the cankers. Therefore it should be understood that these ten powers were referred to in this sequence. >> peace, connie 47498 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:13pm Subject: Patient is Tolerance ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. He who patiently protects himself, protects also others. He who patiently protects others, protects also himself. Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, only such one is rightly called clever. Dhammapada 258 Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... Nibbana is the supreme state!!! So say all the Buddhas. Dhammapada 184 The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even imprisonment, such one, armed with endurance, the great force of tolerance, such one, I call a Holy One. Dhammapada 399 One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon remains in it's regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: Remain pervading them & all others with a friendly awareness imbued with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, & immeasurable! Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikaya 21 Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu, when it arises in him. What are the five? 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 2: Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 3: On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 4: The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be practiced.. 5: Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is born of his actions & only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend just when it arises... Anguttara Nikaya V 161 Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those... Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any of that! Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! Rahula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & frustration will neither dominate nor obsess your mind. Majjhima Nikaya 62 ___________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47499 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewT, > I was really generalising in a "daily life" kind of way. In terms of > absolute realities and mind-moments, I don't think I can honestly say > that I "see" anatta, just as I can't really say that I "directly know" > dhammas. I was using anatta and vipaka loosely too but perhaps I should be more careful. Don't worry, I know you were just talking about cinta- maya panna mostly. > I expect the times I was referring to (of *not* being 'in control'and > realising it) have much akusala and go beyond vipaka; they are times > seemingly dominated by dosa ... but maybe with a tiny bit of weak panna > too? This was exactly the scenario I was imagining when you talk about anatta's lion roar. When things are not going the way we want, we have dosa as you say and want things to change. Then we realize no matter how much we wish or try, we can't change it. So chalk it up to anatta or anicca whatever is one's favorite. I was asking if you had a similar anatta's lion roar when things are going really smoothly. In your previous post, you referred to a nice meditation seemingly in charge of your volition. I wonder if you taken such experience as opportunity to see the disadvantage of even the agreeable things. Or ask yourself, if the experience suddenly goes bad, what would my reaction be? Do you start meditating scared by playing not to lose instead of to win? - kel 47500 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, > I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - > implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome > things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. Indeed one of the dangers when taking anatta too "far". From what I've observed DSG people are sufficiently wise not to fall into the trap. So I just don't read it as radically as written and give people benefit of the doubt. For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. - kel 47501 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:35am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 245 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (s) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Restlessness arises very often, but we do not notice it. It is one of the “five hindrances”(1) and as such it is mentioned as a pair with regret (kukkucca). Restlessness prevents the citta from applying itself to kusala, thus it is a hindrance. We often waste opportunities for kusala. Time and again we are thinking with akusala citta, for example, we think with worry of the tasks which lie ahead of us. However, even while we are thinking there is an opportunity for kusala, namely the development of right understanding. There are realities all the time which have different characteristics, and these can be known when there is nonforgetfulness of them. Also thinking is a reality with its own characteristic and this can be known when it appears. When there is mindfulness there is no restlessness. *** 1) Defilements are classified into different groups and one of these are the “hindrances”, which are the following: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and regret, and doubt. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 10-07-2005 01:26 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is > consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is > consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce > tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I > don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. ------- N: What we call breath are the rupas of solidity, heat and motion, tangible object to be experienced through the bodysense. We have learnt that rupas of the body can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. So long as there is citta there is breathing and we are alive. It is citta that conditions breathing. Even in higher stages of jhana where breathing temporarily stops, it indicates that breath is conditioned by citta. As you say above: < I can see how tranquility can produce tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana..> If kamma would produce breath even in the higher jhanas it would not stop producing it. ------ L: Do bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? -------- N: Yes. We keep on breathing. ---------- L: I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. Does > that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma > resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not > kamma resultant? ------ N: These are not vipaakacittas. Mindfulness of breathing is kusala citta with sati sampajaññaa. Nina. 47503 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 435 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma There are 5 ruupavipaka cittas and they are the result of ruupa kusala kamma. As delineated in the previous post there are 3 level of proficiency of jhaana and this has especially effects at the time of rebirth. But at other time they just give rise to their corresponding ruupavipaaka cittas. 1. 1st jhaana ruupa kusala kamma a) hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at bramaparisajjaa bhuumi b) majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at brahmapurohita bhuumi c) paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at mahaa-brahmaa bhuumi Hiina means 'inferior', majjhima means 'middle', paniita means 'superior'. 2. 2nd & 3rd jhaana ruupa kusala kamma Here 2nd and 3rd are combined. According to jhaananga or jhana factors there are 5 jhaana. But as vitakka and vicara almost always arise together sometimes jhaanas are counted as 4 ruupa jhaana that is when vitakka and vicaara are eliminated from jhaana 2nd jhaana arise (this is 3rd jhaana when 5 jhaana factors are considered). a) hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'parittaabaa brahma bhuumi' b) majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'appamaanaabhaa bhuumi' c) paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'aabhassaraa bhuumi' 3. 4th jhaana ruupa kusala kamma (3rd jhaana of 4-stage-jhaana) a)hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'paritaasubha bhuumi' b)majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'appamaanaasubha bhuumi' c)paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'subhakinnhaa bhuumi' 4. 5th jhaana ruupa kusala kamma (4th jhaana of 4-stage-jhaana) This jhaana is unique and unlike lower jhaanas it is extremely calm. Because there is only ekaggataa or one-pointedness as jhaana factor and only upekkha vedana is there. This jhaana is well balanced and the most refined jhaana among ruupa jhaana. So there one a being attains 5th jhaana (4th jhaana) and if this jhaana arises at near dying then this kamma serves as patisandhi kamma and this kamma will give rise to rebirth at 'vehapphala brahma bhuumi'. This is universal. That is all those who attain 5th jhaana and if this jhaana arise as marana-asanna-javana or if this jhaana arises as the last moment mental impulsion then this serve as kamma and this immediately give rise to rebirth at vehapphala bhuumi. So there is no hiina, majjhima, and paniita in case of 5th jhaana. Again if this 5th jhaana is cultivated with dispassion on sanna or perception, 'because of the power of this 5th jhaana' sanna no more arises as soon as rebirth of that 5th jhaana is given rise. That is rebirth at asannasatta bhuumi. It is ruupa-patisandhi and there is no naama component in those beings in asannasatta bhuumi and they are called asannii or non-percipient beings. They do not have perception and so there is no citta as long as they are in that realm. All these are the results of corresponding ruupa jhaana kamma at patisandhi or rebirth. In the course of life these 5 ruupa jhaana give rise to corresponding ruupavipaka citta. These vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness and when the citta last arise they will be cuti citta or dying-consciousness. This dying-consciousness in brahma bhuumi is also ruupavipaaka cittas. These are 5 ruupa-kusala kamma and their effects at patisandhi or rebirth and their effects in the course of life (pavatti). In the next post aruupa kamma will be delineated. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47504 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:23am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 02 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 2. khandha There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. There are 3 contemplations on each khandha or aggregate. So there are 15 contemplations on khandhas. 1. rupakkhandha or aggregates of 'ruupa(eye,ear etc & form, sound etc) 2. vedanakkhandha or aggregate of feeling 3. sannakkhandha or aggregate of perception 4. sankhaarakkhandha or aggregate of formations 5. vinnaanakkhandha or aggregate of consciousness Like 'nivarana dhamma' or 'hindrances to path-knowledge' these all five khandhas or aggregates should be understood. Otherwise 'dhamma- nupassana' cannot be practised. 3 contemplations on khandhas are 1. this is such khandha 2. this is its origination 3. this is its dissolution 3 contemplations on each of 5 khandhas make 15 contemplations. Along with 25 contemplations on nivarana or hindrances there will bea total of 40 dhammanupassana so far. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47505 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > As I understood, citta only produces rupa at the first submoment, at its > arising moment. > See Visuddhimagga XX, 31, citta is weak at the moments of its presence and > its dissolution. > The patisandhi-citta does not produce rupas, only kamma does at that moment, > because the first citta in life is too weak to do so. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina and Howard [special attention], Thank you very much for your message. Actually I referred to vinnaana- aahaaraja ruupa. When the last citta arises there is no other aahaaraja ruupa or nutriment-born ruupa. But there does arise aahaaraja ruupa because of vinnaana-aahaara given by cuti citta. This ruupa has 51 submoments. It arises at 3rd submoment of cuti citta or at bhanga khana of cuti citta. So there are 50 submoments of aahaaraja ruupa in the corpse. What I am trying to convey is that the 3rd submoment does exist. This is the original question of Howard. Cittaja ruupa or consciousness-born ruupa arises as the last cittaja ruupa at 2nd submoment of cuti citta. That is at thiti khana or while cuti citta is present. The last submoment does not produce cittaja ruupa. As you said I will have to check whether cittaja ruupa are 'only produced' at the arising submoment or uppaada khana of consciousness. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: To Howard_These do exist arising moment, persisting moment, and vanishing moment. Aahaaraja ruupa is still produced till the last submoment of cuti citta. This is about bhanga khana or 3rd submoment. Regarding middle submoment or thiti khana utuja ruupa starts to arise at middle submoment of patisandhi citta. Regarding the 1st submoment or arising moment of citta, kammaja ruupa arise starting at 1st submoment of patisandhi citta and cittaja ruupa arise at 1st submoment of 1st bhavanga citta. 47506 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Why? > > > With unlimited Karuna, > > > Tep > > ================ > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > > > Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my > > reply and the one you wrote that I replied? > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When you do that you will see yourself. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47507 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - Why? With unlimited Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Rob M knows how I read messages. You did not do my suggestion. You did not re-read mt message to you and your reply to my message. Here is a part of my message to you. I already said 'you would confuse again'. As I said you confused me and replied in your way. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ''Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been posted here. Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. 1. Did The Buddha exist? 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? 3. Do Dhamma exist? 4. Did and do arahats exist? 5. Did I exist? 6. Do I exist? 7. Will I be there in the future? I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there in the screen for your mind. a) things on the screen 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) 3. gandhaarammana (smell) 4. rasaarammana (taste) 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? 2. Is sadda 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? 8. Is sota - - 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47508 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 436 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Kaama akusala kamma, kaama kusala kamma, and ruupa kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. Kaama = sensuous things like 1.'ruupa' or 'sight' or 'things to seen' or 'vanna' or 'colour' or 'light' 2.'sadda' or sound 3.'gandha' or smell 4.'rasa' or taste 5.'photthabba' or touch and 6. thoughts related to above 5 things. Akusala = unwholesome or non-profitable kamma = work, action, potentials kusala = wholesome or profitable Ruupa = Here 'ruupa' means 'ruupa jhaana' 'ruupa brahma' or things related to fine-material realms Aruupa = Here 'aruupa' means 'non-material There are 4 aruupa-kusala-kamma. There are 4 aruupa-kusala cittas. They are 1. aakaasananca-ayatana aruupakusala citta Aakaasa + Ananta + ayatana = aakaasananta Aakaasa = space Ananta = boundless, limitless, endless Aayatana= place to support, ground, base This is an aruupa jhaana object. This object is aakaasananta or boundless space and that space is the 'ground' for citta called 1st aruupa jhaana citta. So it is aayatana or ground or base and that aayatana is called aakaasananta ayatana or aakaasanancayatana. The citta who takes that aayatana called 'aakaasanancayatana' is called 'aakaasanancayatana aruupakusala citta'. The state of being that citta is called 1st aruupa jhaana or aakaasanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The object boundless space is derived from boundless pannatta of one of 9 kasina objects (akasa kasina is excluded as it is already space). 2. vinnaananancayatana aruupakusala citta Vinnaana + ananta + aayatana Vinaana = Here 'vinnaana' is refered to 'vinnaana' of 1st aruupa jhana or 'the consciousness' that take the object boundless space Ananta = boundless Aayatana= base, ground, home, house, place to dwell, supporting ground Vinnaana-ananta-ayatana = Vinnaanancayatana This ayatana called 'vinnaananancayatana' is the object of 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. 1st aruupa jhaana object is boundless space. Likewise when the thaana or base or grond is boundless then the thaanii or base-dweller or ground-taker or 1st aruupa jhaana is also boundless. When this boundless-consciousness of 1st aruupa jhaana is clearly seen, this seer is no one but 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. The citta is 2nd aruupa jhaana citta and the object is boundless- consciousness of 1st aruupa jhaana. So this 2nd aruupa jhaana is called 'vinnaanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The cittas in that 2nd aruupa jhaana is 2nd aruupa jhana citta or 2nd aruupakusala cittas. 3. akincinnayatana aruupakusala citta Akinci + ayatana = aakincinna-ayatana Aakinci = nothing, not a thing, nothingness Aayatana= base, ground, place to dwell, place to live, place to home 2nd aruupa jhaana object, that is vinnaanancayatana or 'the boundless- consciousness' is quite close to boundless-space and this again is close to boundless-panatta of 9 kasina and this again has much danger leading back to kaama or sensuous sphere. So the vinnaanancayata or boundless-consciousness, the object has to be dispassionated and it has to be dropped as object. In that case no other object has to be taken and instead the object is just 'nothing'. So this object is called 'nothingness' and when the 3rd aruupa jhaana arises citta takes 'nothingness' as its object. 4. neva-sanna-na-asanna-ayatana aruupakusala citta Actually the object of 3rd aruupa jhaana is nothing or nothingness. So it is very difficult to contemplate whether there is sanna or equally it is hard to say whether there is asanna or non-perception. Because as the object is not very clear and very subtle. When this 3rd aruupa jhaana citta is clearly seen there arise 4th aruupa jhaana citta. It is 4th aruupakusala citta. These 4 aruupakusala cittas when they arise they create aruupa kusala kamma. When beings develop these aruupa jhaana when near dying or if these aruupa jhaana arise as the last moment mental impulsion this give rise to patisandhi. a) results at patisandhi or rebirth 1. aakaasanancayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise to rebirth at 'aakaasaanancayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 2. vinnaanaanancayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'vinnaanaanancayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 3. aakincinnayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'aakincinnayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 4. nevasanna-naasanna-ayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'nevasanna-naasannaayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. In the course of life when in aruupa brahma bhuumi or non-material realm these 4 aruupa kusala kamma give rise to their corresponding aruupavipaaka cittas as their effect. They are 1. akasanancayatana aruupavipaaka citta 2. vinnananancayatana aruupavipaka citta 3. akincinnayatana aruupavipaaka citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana aruupavipaaka citta These 4 cittas are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness of these 4 kinds of aruupa brahma deva or aruupa beings. When these cittas last arise they are called aruupa-cuti citta and this is also the result of aruupa kusala kamma. These are summary of kamma and its implications. We do not need to go beyond the leaves in The Buddha's hand. Kamma is a deep, wide, head- to-deal subject. But what we should deal with is to avoid akusala and to do kusala while we are searching for the truth by ourselves. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47509 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, You raised many good points in your post #47167. I think your series on anapanasati is very useful for airing different understandings of samatha, breath, meditation and so on. Thank you. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several > issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise > so far. ... S: I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the teachings. Whatever I read -- whether it be the Breathing Treatise or any other sutta, the Vinaya or the Abhidhamma – I read it as being the Buddha’s detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. If we try to select breath for concentration or awareness, I don’t believe it leads to detachment or any understanding of dhammas as as anatta. .... >Tep:...Why does the anatta aspect of sati or any > dhamma become an issue at this point so early in the Anapanasati > bhavana? .... S: Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or vipassana or of jhana as a basis for vipassana, still all dhammas arising are anatta. When we have the idea that there can be any development of calm or wholesome concentration by means of a special focus, rather than by an understanding of the clear distinction between wholesome and unwholesome cittas at this moment, I think it’s wrong. Any wholesome cittas are calm, but usually they lasts for such a short time that we don’t notice them. However, wisdom can determine which objects condition more kusala (wholesome states), such as when there is metta or reflection on death, the Buddha’s virtues or breath for some and samatha can begin to develop if there are conditions for it. Through such understanding, there can be conditions for more calm in a day, but not by focusing or a special trying. We can see that such moments of wholesome wise reflection are very different from most the time when we think about people in an unwholesome way, for example. Not everyone is going to attain upacara, let alone appana samadhi and the question is whether it matters at all. There were many people in the Buddha’s time who attained jhanas but who never became enlightened. They could attain high jhanas but still not know anything about namas and rupas and not be any closer to finding release from samsara. Look at Devadatta, for example. I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don’t believe this is indicated in the text? ..... > Tep: That's right, what appears "right now" is the breaths and the > attention (or sati) placed at the front upatthapetva>. > > "While breathing in long, he knows 'I am breathing in long', while > breathing out long, he knows 'I am breathing out long'..." ... S: Is this what appears right now as we speak? Or is it thinking about what we read in the texts with an effort to have it appear? .... > This is real meditation, samatha-vipassana with sati-sampajanna and > atapi, based on the object of meditation -- not a thinking meditation to > find answer to everything. > --------------------------------------- .... S: I believe the Buddha explained the truth of all dhammas. When reality appears, there’s no ‘in or out breaths’. This is a concept, not the reality of a special rupa, just conditioned by citta, which is breath. This could be discerned by the Buddha and some key disciples. As soon as the group of rupas which make up breath arises, it falls away immediately. It’s quite different from what we are used to thinking of as in or out breaths lasting for a few seconds, I believe. Yes, it has to be the path of non-attachment. Who knows what will arise next, depending on our different accumulations? Satipatthana is about becoming used to different dhammas in a day. When there’s understanding of namas and rupas, there is calm too. When the 8fold path is being developed, there is samatha & vipassana being developed already. Adhicitta (higher concentration) is the development of calm and concentration of the 8fold path, not of jhana. When there’s understanding of the impermanence of all dhammas, there’s less and less attachment to what is conditioned now. Any dhamma is impermanent and anatta. This is why, whatever we read, it always ends with an emphasis on the 4 Noble Truths and the understanding of namas and rupas. All the teachings are about decreasing attachment. Even if someone has attained jhana beforehand, it doesn’t mean it will be used as basis for insight or enlightenment. In the end, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. So, why delay the development of satipatthana by trying to calm the mind first? ... > Sarah: As the sutta said, `any kind of form> whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal> or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be> seen> & understood as it really is......etc' > Tep: That comes from Anattalakkhana sutta. I thought you were > discussing Anapanasati meditation. ... S: I believe we can understand what is meant by ‘anapanasati meditation’ better if we read it in the light of the teachings as a whole, especially the teachings on anatta. Vism X1X, 26 ‘Correctknowledge and right seeing and overcoming doubt – are those things different in meaning and different in the letter or are they one in meaning and only the letter is different? Correct knowledge and right seeing and overcoming of doubt – these things are one in meaning and only the letter is different’ (Ps ii, 62f) ‘When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a ‘lesser stream-enterer’. ‘So would a bhikkhu overcome His doubts, then ever minfully Let him discern conditions both Of mind and matter [nama and rupa] thoroughly.” .... Metta, Sarah p.s I'm going to try to respond to posts I've set aside to date -- others will likely have to wait til I return from my trip as I'm rather behind. ======== 47510 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > ..... > ______ Dear Sarah, All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. But some of them attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously (because of accumlations from past lives). Sariputta was fanning the Buddha and listening to a Dhamma talk when he became arahant- but he was so skilled in Jhana that he was entering and leaving jhana even while listening. He was chief in wisdom. Robertk 47511 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! sarahprocter... Hi Tep,(Ven Samahita, Joop, Herman & all) I liked everything you wrote to me in this thread very much (#47343) and the extra quotes you gave. I've had to trim most to set a good example:). --- Tep Sastri wrote: > "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is > cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a > basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- > undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? > "One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear > to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. > Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains > concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies > unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma > worlds." [AN XI.16] ... S: Yes, I love these reminders and I think we can all experience the benefits of metta without expecting or wishing for them. ... Ven Samahita also quoted from the Lovingkindness Discourse in Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings). This is interesting because in the last stanza and commentary to it, we read (quoting from PTS translation now): .... "And now, since lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza: "But he that traffics not with views Is virtuous with perfected seeing Till purged of greed for sense-desires He will surely come no more to any womb." "He did this as a preventative against [their straying into] the thicket of [speculative] views (see Mi 8) by showing those bhikkhus how the Noble Plane is reached through making that same loving-kindness jhana the basis for insight. "Its meaning is this. After emerging from the abiding in lovingkindness jhana, which was specified (detailed) thus ' This is Divine Abiding here, they say', [he discerns] the [non-material-form] ideas there [in that jhana] consisting in thinking and exploring and the rest [S: i.e jhana factors][which he defines as 'name'.][S: namas]Then, following on the defining, etc, of these [jhana factors as 'name'], he discerns the ideas of [material] form there, [which he defines as 'form'.][S: rupas] "By means of this delimitation of name-and-form 'he traffics not with views (di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma), [avoiding that by discerning] in the way stated thus 'A heap of mere determinations; No creature can be found herein' (S i 135), till he eventually becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virtue that is supramundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream Entry, which is called seeing (dassanena), and which is associated with that supramundane virtue" Later in the conclusion... "There the bhikkhus maintained lovingkindness in being, making that the basis, they established insight [into the three general characteristics of impermanence, suffering and not-self,] till all of them reached Arahantship...." .... Metta, Sarah p.s. > The ability ro "gain concentration quickly" is , I think, the reason for > perfecting lovingkindness meditation before attempting the > kayanupassana satipatthana as stated in the sutta (that I discussed > recently with Jon). ... S: I think it's not just a matter of gaining concentration, but of understanding and 'skill in good' (atthakusalena). Lots more to discuss here...perhaps we can pick it up on my return. The commentary is very rich and stresses that the bhikkhus in question were so skilled. ====================== 47512 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi RobertK, Good to see your input! --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the > majority of > > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > > ..... > > ______ > Dear Sarah, > All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. ... S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became enlightened, I believe. ... >But some of them > attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously > (because of accumlations from past lives). .... S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. ... > Sariputta was fanning the Buddha and listening to a Dhamma talk when > he became arahant- but he was so skilled in Jhana that he was entering > and leaving jhana even while listening. He was chief in wisdom. ... S: I agree with this, but somewhere on the Sri Lanka tapes K.Sujin says it's not clear anywhere in the texts that jhana was used as a basis for his enlightenment. I took her to be referring to when he first became enlightened (as a sotapanna) and that was what I was alluding to. Thx for helping me to clarify this. I'll be glad if you, Tep or anyone else has anything else to add. Metta, Sarah p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain experiences of visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, body-door experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door processes. We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). ======== 47513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 437 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We have explored deeply in the forest of citta, cetasika, ruupa, nibbana. Apart from these 4 dhamma there is no other ultimate reality. This means that there are ultimate realities and they are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. If there is 'anything' that 'anything' has to be citta or cetasika or ruupa or nibbana. This is always true. Everything that exists in any form is one of these when ultimately seen. When it is said that 'there is no I, no me, no mine' some may a bit confused. Nothing to be confused. Because there is no 'I' or 'me' or 'my' or 'mine' in ultimate sense. But if this is said one may be pondering who is writing these scripts. No one is writing. Is this possible? When Dhamma is really seen and perceived wisely there is no reason to arise such ignorant question. Did The Buddha exist? If no, why are these Dhamma there in tipitaka and who preached these tipitaka? To understand these argumentations and their implication with regard to realities one has to consider on individual matter. Ultimate things are always ultimate things. But these ultimate things arise individually. Citta arises individually. Cetasika arises individually. And ruupa arises individually. Nibbana exists individually. Nibbana does not arise and so nibbana does not fall away. There are dhamma that arise at the same time. Sometime these dhamma are illusionally interpreted as someone, something and so on. Example there are co-arising khandhas like 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregate 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregate 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregate 4. sankhaara-kkhandha or formation aggregate 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregate These co-arising individual dhamma are illusionally interpreted as human, deva, brahma, man, woman, cat, dog, snake etc etc. In ultimate sense there is no such thing as 'human' 'deva' 'brahma' 'man' 'woman' etc etc. For the reason of clear grasping the idea of individuality 'beings' are classified into 12 individual beings and these individuals are also known as puggala. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47514 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:50am Subject: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi all, There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate hearing where there was none. Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? Kind Regards Herman 47515 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > > > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the > > majority of > > > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > > > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > > > ..... > > > ______ > > Dear Sarah, > > All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. > ... > S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became > enlightened, I believe. ____________ Dear Sarah, I must have written at least 10 times on this forum about how the great majority of disciples were sukkha-vipassana, so not sure why you are repeating this? ------------------------------- > ... > >But some of them > > attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously > > (because of accumlations from past lives). > .... > S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't > necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. _____________ You mean that some of them were sukkha-vipassaka? I don't think so. _____________________ > .. > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain experiences of > visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, body-door > experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door processes. > We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). _________________- I am bit lost, why are you bringing this up? __________ RobertK 47516 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, The answer is very clearly no. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47517 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/11/05 6:50:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate hearing where there was none. Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? Kind Regards Herman ====================== As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a locational rupa. I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense doors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47518 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) ashkenn2k Hi Nina relax :-). it is latency at work, we cant control them since they are not self and they arise as they like and cease as they like, no point thinking over our latency. as you always said, right understanding is the only way to go cheers Ken O 47519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo nilovg Hi Colette, op 09-07-2005 17:51 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > > "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems > to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and > when it is gone we are sad" ------ N: This is a reminder for me too. I really like pleasant feeling. This attachment causes sorrow. -------- > C: Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: > > Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many > defilements" > > My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the > Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of > view?" --------- N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you may come to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. It is really sober and simple. It is worth while to be openminded to it and try to understand it. I found it helpful in the beginnign to forget about all the philosophical stuff I had studied before and just listen. Is it difficult to listen? Nina 47520 From: nina Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:56am Subject: Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Tep, Larry and all, Here is a summary of parts of the commentaries. ----------- The second tetrad pertains to the contemplation of feeling. As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, saññaa. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: The Commentary to the Satipatthana sutta states that contemplating feelings in the feelings should be seen in the same way as contemplating the body in the body: thus, in order to limit the object and ³sifting it out². We read: *** Commentary to the Path of Discrimination: Co: How is the arising of feeling recognized [known]? The Co explains that the arising and cessation of feeling is understood according to the general (samañña) characteristic. He understands the arising, its presence and its falling away, its disappearance, its emptiness. And it is the same with saññaa, and vitakka, thinking. N: In the text we read about the arising and cessation according to the D.O. Thus, this has to be understood in two ways: as to the moments of arising and falling away and as to the conditions as explained in the D.O. The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling appear but indifferent feeling is harder to know. But also indifferent feeling appears to the bhikkhu. When feeling is considered as impermanent, etc. it is together with vipassana, according to the Co. Saññaa, in this context, is together with vipassana, it gets hold of the general characteristics. Thinking is an essential factor for vipassana. The Co quotes what the Buddha said to Visakha: sammaa-ditthi, right view, is together with right thinking as paññaa-khandha. N: Here the word khandha has a different meaning. The eightfold Path is divided in three groups: siila, concentration and wisdom. Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path. The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: vitakka hits the object so that pañña can realize it as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka paññaa would not be able to do this. ***** Nina. 47521 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 438 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala These seem difficult to remember. 1. arahats 2. initial arahats 3. anagams 4. initial anagams 5. sakadagams 6. initial sakadagams 7. sotapams 8. initial sotapams 9. triple-rooted non-ariya individuals 10.double-rooted non-ariya individuals 11.happy-destination rootless individuals 12.unhappy-destination rootless individuals 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala arahatta = 'eradicated' phala = fruit thaana = place puggala = individual There is an individual and that individual is seen at the place called fruit of radication of all kilesas or defilements. This means there is 'no arahat' as an ultimate reality. But individual dhamma is illusionally seen as individual. And here individually seen as a 'being' or a person who is arahat. But actually in ultimate sense there is no being, no person, no arahat. What is seen as 'arahat' or here 'arahatta phalatthaana puggala' is arahatta phala citta. This citta is a reality. It is the result of arahatta magga citta. There have been many many conditions for arahatta magga citta to arise. Arahatta phala citta does not arise alone even though it arises in its individual. When it arise there always are its associated cetasikas and its home-base ruupa. Finally they (these dhamma) are just panca-kkhandhas or 5 aggregates. So arahatta phalatthaana puggala is 'a puggala' or 'an individual' who is seen at the place or thaana or 'arahatta phala citta'. The same applies to all other individuals. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment ,latent tendencies. nilovg Hi Ken O, nice to hear from you. I hear your voice often these days on tape. It is good to know that there are latent tendencies, it helps us to understand conditions and the nature of anatta. Nina. op 11-07-2005 16:54 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@...: relax :-). it is latency at work, we cant control them since they > are not self and they arise as they like and cease as they like, no > point thinking over our latency. as you always said, right > understanding is the only way to go 47523 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path?/ Already Answered! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I am sorry to disappoint you. Your questions were already answered in my last post. Maybe it is now your turn to reread that post and discover my intended answers by yourself. > Htoo: I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > in the screen for your mind. > > a) things on the screen > > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) > > b) the screen watcher (your mind) > > 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) > > Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? > Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? > > 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? > 2. Is sadda > > 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? > 8. Is sota > - > - > 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > With unlimited Karuna, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Rob M knows how I read messages. You did not do my suggestion. You did not re-read mt message to you and your reply to my message. > > Here is a part of my message to you. I already said 'you would > confuse again'. As I said you confused me and replied in your way. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ''Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. > > And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written > on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been > posted here. > > Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no > indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. > > 1. Did The Buddha exist? > 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? > 3. Do Dhamma exist? > 4. Did and do arahats exist? > 5. Did I exist? > 6. Do I exist? > 7. Will I be there in the future? > (snipped) > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47524 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Howard and Htoo, > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ====================== > As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I > take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but > rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the > term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, > and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. > We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for > seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and > within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other > than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding > sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. > So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a > cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a > locational rupa. > I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. > I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense > doors. > === I, of course, accept both your takes on this matter, and I certainly have no desire to have you see things another way. But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback Kind Regards Herman 47525 From: quidam Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, --- colette wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep > Sastri" > wrote: > > Charles D: > > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We > must be careful > not > to fall into the trap of stretching both views in > order to achieve > the stated > objective." colette: I love how he created that statement since I had just watched a show on "black holes", ect. and they said that when a person gets placed above the "singularity" they are going directly in. Take it from the point of "falling" lets be arbitrary and give the victim of the fall the luxury of falling as a pussy cat falls in order to give them the ability to land on their feet. It just so happens that as the person decends their feet are going to descend faster than their head since the gravitational pull of the singularity is greater on the feet, being closer, than the head. cool huh? ;)) --------------- > > > > Isn't it true that most people who have self-views > love to stretch > the > teachings, or anything else including the laws, "in > order to achieve > the > stated objective"? They all have fun doing that > (especially when they > win). colette: exactly Tep, which is why I'm so consumed with the eternal question "what is truth" since it is all truth yet your version of the truth is from your pair of shoes, POV, while my version is from my pair of shoes, POV, so we have to find a happy medium ground or we get into the battle of the ego by gratifying the ego which is to say that if your version of truth is correct then mine is incorrect or wrong. Ah, we can't have that in today's society of competition now can we? Thus, the ego is consumed with being correct and if it is not correct then it is like a rat caught in a trap, "It's a rat trap baby" The Boom Town Rats. ================================================== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charle s > DaCosta" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I > see the value in > trying to > demonstrate the similarities > > between 2 different teachings. colette: well, just because you can't see any value does that mean that there is no value i.e. the perception of an aircraft by a radar and the detection of the Stealth aircraft by the same radar. If we're looking for similarities then we're using something like a "split-screen" in our comparison. I think that the inconsistancies we may find are created by cultural values. There's that word again, in the American society the value structure is rather money orientated isn't it? Values in this culture are so pliable and dough-like cetasikas. ---------------------- It is likely to > lead to a > stretching of both > in order to achieve the stated objective. It might > be better to > study each > for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." colette: which is what I always do. "Yes I'm on my way. I don't know where I'm goin'. I'm on my way" Paul Simon. Here is where I have so much trouble with individuals trying to tell me what is and is not consciousness. AS IF THEY KNOW! I may not know where I'm goin' but at least I can maintain consciousness so as to find my way back, huh? ;-)) ------------------ toodles, colette 47526 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > op 08-07-2005 16:53 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as > > your brain cells .. > ______ > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, nothing, no meanings whatsoever. Thru meditation and the trance state yogis, arahants, buddhas, etc. have been able to achieve great things although you may choose to deny the ability of some people to walk on burning coals or place their fists thru solid objects or place a dagger thru the walls of his cave, etc. That is fine for a micro-manager that is consumed with controling everything in this life. I on the other hand tend to believe the mystical is a practicle coarse of study and vaible coarse as well. -------------- > ---------- > > colette: > > You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then > > say that they are carried to the next citta. > ------ > N: No. I did not mean that. The inclinations, tendencies, memories are > carried on from moment to moment. But there is constant change. New > accumulations are added, and there can also be a wearing away of bad > tendencies. > You can verify in your life that you remember, that you learn. There must be > conditions for that. > ------- > C:Since I think I made my > > point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth > > --------------------- > N: This is about material phenomena, and different from what is mental. Your > simile suggests something that lasts. colette: do you mean to assert that you have no brain and that by taking an algerbra 1 class learning how to represent numbers by using letters then you be no better off in the study of physics? Don't you see trace elements of the flash after the chinese invention of fireworks goes off in the sky above your head like a light bulb? The flash is over yet there's trace? It can't be according to your assumptions. The physical brain maintains the trace in the synapses, the electrical impulses of the brain, and I suppose you're going to tell me that there is no such thing as Beta, Alpha, Theta, and Delta brain waves and that they do not issue an electromagnetic field, or aura around the body? sorry gotta go I hope to be back latter to finish this post Nina was kind enough to offer me. toodles, colette > --------- > > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta > is of no value to > > the knowledge once it has been learned. > > --------------------- > N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not > say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the > citta. > ------- <...> 47527 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! pt. 2 ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta > is of no value to > > the knowledge once it has been learned. > > --------------------- > N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not > say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the> citta. colette: then why is it so universally excepted and the myth purpetuated by using the thoughts of the aristocratic noble as being the citta and his, notice how I used the male gender as the vehicle for the negativity which will pass thru this, servants as the cetasika? It seems as though you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want it a certain way that has benefited you in the past but when confronted by the present, here & now, you are not going to allow for any deviation from the coarse that has brought you such abilities What was that you were saying about something that lasts in reference to my use of the terminology, analogy, metaphor, for the wagon wheel ruts in the earth marking the path, the way, being like the synapses of the brain marking the path, the way, and how it relates so nicely here since I've gone and said that your path of the past really does last and you said your citta and cetasika don't last? -------------------- > ------- > > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > > since the begining of time/history. > > ---------------------------------- > N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for > yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The > Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results > accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or > later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. > ------- > colette: Oh how could I be so stupid and walk into your maze of your ignorance. Pardon me while I walk out by means of walking thru your walls! I love it: chapter 2 Feeling (vedana), p.9 "On a account of a pleasant object there is often lobha-mula-citta which can be accompanied by somanassa or upekkha, and on account of an unpleasant object there is often dosa-mula-citta which is accompanied by dmanassa..." My notes state: "The Sangaha defines a certain state of 'determining consciousness' the classification of the citta as either kusala or akusala" Which leads me to the reality that you seem to be of the meglamaniac type of personality where the power to control others is more important than the power to control yourself. ;-)) ---------------------- gots ta go, I noticed another post to me in the msg. index. toodles, colette 47528 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo ksheri3 Good Morning again Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > op 09-07-2005 17:51 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > > > "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems > > to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and > > when it is gone we are sad" > ------ > N: This is a reminder for me too. I really like pleasant feeling. This > attachment causes sorrow. colette: Rupa rears it's ugly head huh? Don't you see your clinging, attachment, to things as they were? <....> You began everything by placing value in rupa and denying nama, now you see that rupa may just be a manifestation of nama but nama contradicts rupa therefore you cling to the path that brought you peace and comfort and wealth and .... > -------- > > > C: Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: > > > > Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many > > defilements" > > > > My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the > > Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of > > view?" > --------- > N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you may come > to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began reading the first page since it directly applied to myself immediately. "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. ----------------------- It is really sober and simple. It is worth while to be openminded to it and try to understand > it. <...> > I found it helpful in the beginnign to forget about all the philosophical > stuff I had studied before and just listen. colette: heavens no! I began my study of the esoteric yrs before I had any knowledge of philosophy etc. I entered it with a certainty of my Self and what I'd been thru in this death. I've found application after application that verifiably works in the esoteric and most recently have found philosphy. Damn, for over 2 decades I was working from the premise that nobody saw the relationship between Marx & Engles, the Soviets and organized religion, which is why it took me at least 3 days to walk a few blocks to the Soviet Embassy in Washington D.C. in 1982, but this philospher named Heideger, I think, I've got the printout at home if I dig, had come up with the same realization that I did thus making it impossiple for me to have done what I did on my own since others have realized these things long before me. Which goes into my NATURAL ABILITY for the esoteric and not the man-made, man-manufactured, version of ability. I always figured my dad was sooooooo pissed at me for dying in 1978 and coming back to life is that at that moment he could no longer take credit for doing what I did. He had absolutely no tangent involved in my exploit(s) and therefor he could not lay claim to my profits or losses he was outside of the condition of my life and that really pissed him off since my dad was the utmost of control freaks. I think he got that from McDonalds or at least from Wheaton and DuPage county. Now that I've got all this knowledge of philosophers and my knowledge of the esoteric is constantly growing, I can find overlapping, details using a split-screen type of comparison. what a Mind Game huh? Notice how the concept Mind Game is the oposite of Game Mind where GM does not equal MG. :-o LOL ---------------------- Is it difficult to listen? colette: that's the only thing the middle-class will allow me to do since they are so consumed with dictating.<...>Boy are they in for a rude awakening huh? toodles, colette 47529 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Sarah, > ... > S: I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the > teachings. == I think this is very worthwhile to point out again and again. It is all too easy to refer to a text here and a text there and end up saying that "the teachings say......", as if all of the teachings say that. Personally, I do not think it is possible to have ONE synoptic view of the Canon, its commentaries and sub-commentaries. Or conversely, I do not think that these works represent ONE view. If we lean one way in our interpretations, we can only do so by ignoring those things that lean in other directions. == Whatever I read -- whether it be the Breathing Treatise or any > other sutta, the Vinaya or the Abhidhamma – I read it as being the > Buddha's detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. If we try to select > breath for concentration or awareness, I don't believe it leads to > detachment or any understanding of dhammas as as anatta. == All day long, people try to do things. All day long, people are striving , seeking to achieve goals. All day long, people are unaware that it is not "them" that is doing the trying, but that the trying is what is happening to them. Of course, any thought of "shoulding" or "should not" is also a conditioned phenomenon. Seeking out situations and avoiding situations is what is happening, there is noone that is making that happen . You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For anyone engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility towards others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental seclusion from arising. Kind Regards Herman 47530 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina { Larry, Sarah, Howard, and all} - Thank you very much for summarizing some relevant issues from the commentaries. I think the commentary to the Path of Discrimination with regard to "thinking" is a little confusing. N: Thinking is an essential factor for vipassana. The Co quotes what the Buddha said to Visakha: sammaa-ditthi, right view, is together with right thinking as pannaa-khandha. >Here the word khandha has a different meaning. The eightfold Path is >divided in three groups: siila, concentration and wisdom. Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. N: The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: > vitakka hits the object so that panna can realize it as impermanent, >dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka pannaa would not be able to do this. Tep: Is this 'vitakka' the jhana factor of the 1st jhana? If it is, then it implies that panna-khandha (for penetrating the path) is supported (at least) by the 1st jhana. Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, Larry and all, > Here is a summary of parts of the commentaries. > ----------- (snipped) > *** > Commentary to the Path of Discrimination: > > Co: How is the arising of feeling recognized [known]? > > The Co explains that the arising and cessation of feeling is understood according to the general (samañña) characteristic. He understands the arising, its presence and its falling away, its disappearance, its emptiness. And it is the same with saññaa, and vitakka, thinking. > N: In the text we read about the arising and cessation according to the D.O. Thus, this has to be understood in two ways: as to the moments of arising and falling away and as to the conditions as explained in the D.O. The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling appear but indifferent feeling is harder to know. But also indifferent feeling appears to the bhikkhu. > When feeling is considered as impermanent, etc. it is together with > vipassana, according to the Co. > Saññaa, in this context, is together with vipassana, it gets hold of the > general characteristics. (snipped) . > ***** > Nina. 47531 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, The scenario you presented makes no sense to me given how I understand sati. What is your definition? Mental seclusion of the degree you're referring to seems to be more of absorption concentration as opposed to sati. Some might even say moral constraints are not possible without sati. - kel > You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For anyone > engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively > avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility towards > others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into > others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is > the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental > seclusion from arising. 47532 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/11/05 6:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard and Htoo, > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ====================== > As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I > take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but > rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the > term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, > and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. > We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for > seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and > within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other > than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding > sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. > So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a > cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a > locational rupa. > I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. > I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense > doors. > === I, of course, accept both your takes on this matter, and I certainly have no desire to have you see things another way. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) --------------------------------------- Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm aware of these descriptions. I think they are for the purpose of pinpointing the location. (But, then, I could certainly be wrong. I am not persuaded of several Abghidhammic and commentarial notions. For example, Abhidhamma also countenances such things as life principle (lifeforce?) [Of course they DID speak of that on the original Star Trek!] and maleness and femaleness, of which I haven't yet been persuaded. ;-) --------------------------------------- Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback ------------------------------------ Howard: Any time! ;-) ------------------------------------ Kind Regards Herman =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47533 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing lbidd2 Nina: "The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them." Hi Nina, How does this fit into the practice? Also, regarding the fall of feeling and the other two, that seems to be linked to the cessation of ignorance, desire, action, and contact. How does the cessation of ignorance condition the subsiding of feeling, etc.? I can see how the cessation of ignorance conditions the cessation of feeling, but I don't see how the subsiding sub-moment is conditioned. Conditioned cessation isn't the same as conditioned subsiding. Is it just a parallel? BT 200: "The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of feeling." Larry 47534 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - Thank you for your post. > colette: exactly Tep, which is why I'm so consumed with the eternal question "what is truth" since it is all truth yet your version of the truth is from your pair of shoes, POV, while my version is from my pair > of shoes, POV, so we have to find a happy medium ground or we get into the battle of the ego by gratifying the ego which is to say that if your > version of truth is correct then mine is incorrect or wrong. Ah, we can't have that in today's society of competition now can we? Thus, the ego is consumed with being correct and if it is not correct then it is like > a rat caught in a trap, "It's a rat trap baby" The Boom Town Rats. > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much, especially the following: Charles D: > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in > > trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different > > teachings. > > colette: well, just because you can't see any value does that mean that there is no value i.e. the perception of an aircraft by a radar and the detection of the Stealth aircraft by the same radar. > Best wishes, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, quidam wrote: > Good Morning Tep, > > > > --- colette wrote: > (snipped) > > > (snipped) > > colette: which is what I always do. "Yes I'm on my > way. I don't know where I'm goin'. I'm on my way" Paul > Simon. Here is where I have so much trouble with > individuals trying to tell me what is and is not > consciousness. AS IF THEY KNOW! I may not know where > I'm goin' but at least I can maintain consciousness so > as to find my way back, huh? ;-)) > ------------------ > > > toodles, > colette > 47535 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think I can see how consciousness regulates the breath rupas. As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling? Larry 47536 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Jhana and Lay Disciple kelvin_lwin Hi All, Apologies if this has been posted but I happened to run into it and it made for interesting read. - kel http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm Conclusions: (1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhânas. Though some suttas include the jhânas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikâyas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhâna arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhânas. (2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhânas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhâna before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhânas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhânas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhânas in the preliminary phase of their practice. (3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhânas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhânic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. (4) Several non-returners in the Nikâyas claim to possess all four jhânas, and according to the Mahâmâluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhâna is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non- returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhâna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhânas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds. (5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhânic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhânas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhâna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm. (6) Although in the Nikâyas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhânas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhânas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhânas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhânas. 47537 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:04pm Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] kelvin_lwin Hi Tep and Colette, > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much She must be too clever for me since I haven't been able to figure out her posts. My background is limited to Theravada Buddhism in order to understand most of the references easily. - kel 47538 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Kel, Howard, Larry, Mike and all ) - Thank you very much for taking time to reply to my previous post. Your main points (1 - 9) are listed below so that it is easier for others to see your thought stream. My reply to each item is correspondingly numbered. Sarah's 9 Points ----------------------- 1. I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the teachings... as being the Buddha's detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. 2. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or vipassana or of jhana as a basis for vipassana, still all dhammas arising are anatta. 3. Wisdom can determine which objects condition more kusala (wholesome states), such as when there is metta or reflection on death, the Buddha's virtues or breath for some and samatha can begin to develop if there are conditions for it. ... Through such understanding, there can be conditions for more calm in a day, but not by focusing or a special trying. 4. There were many people in the Buddha's time who attained jhanas but who never became enlightened. They could attain high jhanas but still not know anything about namas and rupas and not be any closer to finding release from samsara. 5. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? 6. When reality appears, there's no `in or out breaths'. This is a concept, not the reality of a special rupa, just conditioned by citta, which is breath. This could be discerned by the Buddha and some key disciples. 7. Adhicitta (higher concentration) is the development of calm and concentration of the 8fold path, not of jhana. 8. In the end, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. So, why delay the development of satipatthana by trying to calm the mind first? 9. I believe we can understand what is meant by `anapanasati meditation' better if we read it in the light of the teachings as a whole, especially the teachings on anatta. Tep's Comments ------------------------- 1. It is true that a main component of the Teachings is about conditioned dhammas. But there are also other important components of the Teachings like sila, samadhi, and insight knowledges. 2. Every moment, all dhammas arising everywhere are anatta. But this point is not the main concern of the Anapanasati Sutta; it is the main concern of the Anattalakkhana Sutta and Dependent Origination suttas. 3. Without special trying, there is no right effort to condition right view for clear understanding of the Four Noble Truths. "And what is right effort(samma-vayama)? There is the case where a monk generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors(vayamati), arouses persistence(viriyam arabhati), upholds & exerts his intent (cittam pagganhati padahati) for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance(nhitiya), non-confusion(asammosaya), increase (bhiyyobhavaya), plenitude(vepullaya), development(bhavanaya), & culmination(paripuriya) of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort". 4. How do you know? Have you any evidence to suggest so? 5. Just count the suttas that talk about jhana and compare the total number to the suttas that say so-and-so bhikkhus become Arahant without jhana. I have found no more than two suttas in the latter category. 6. Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (i) Breathing in long, he knows: "I breathe in long; or breathing out long, he knows: "I breathe out long". (ii) Breathing in short, he knows: ... (xvi) He trains thus: "I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment"; he trains thus: "I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment" '. [Vism VIII, 145] The great Arahant Sariputta attained his arahatta-phala through jhanas and vipassana-nana according to MN 111, Anupada Sutta. (The following excerpt consists of only para 9 and 10 of the sutta) [9] "Again, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the fourth Jhana, which has neither-pleasure-nor-pain and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. [10] "And the states in the fourth Jhana - the equanimity, the neither- pleasant-nor-painful feeling, the mental unconcern due to tranquility, the purity of mindfulness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. Regarding those states he abided un- attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood, There is an escape beyond this, and with the cultivation of that attainment he confirmed that there is. 7. Nyanatiloka Dictionary : This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samadhi, panna). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava). [endquote] Noble (right) concentration involves the 4 rupa-jhanas, according to several suttas (including DN 22): "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. [endquote] 8. Anapanasati bhavana consists of 4 tetrads, the first fits in the mold of kayanupassana satipatthana, the second is equivalent to vedananupassana satipatthana, the third is equivalent to cittanupassana satipatthana, and the last tetrad is dhammanupassana satipatthana. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw wrote, "The Commentary associates this (second) tetrad with full absorption in jhana, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhana (upacara-jhana), attained after the first appearance of the counterpart sign." So, it should be clear that jhana is the support of the four anupassanas in the fourth tetrad (to develop the 4 insight knowledges). 9. I believe we can understand what is meant by `anapanasati meditation' best if we read it in the light of the teachings on concentration(samadhi), especially the teaching on the development of mindfulness of breathing as a meditation object. It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases (vatthu) thus: 'And how developed, bhikkhus, how practiced much, is concentration through mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an adulterated blissful abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as they arise? Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (i) Breathing in long, he knows: "I breathe in long; or breathing out long, he knows: "I breathe out long". (ii) Breathing in short, he knows: ... (xvi) He trains thus: "I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment"; he trains thus: "I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment" '. [Vism VIII, 145] I hope my reply is clear to you. Kind regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & all, > > You raised many good points in your post #47167. I think your series on > anapanasati is very useful for airing different understandings of samatha, > breath, meditation and so on. Thank you. > (snipped) > .... > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I'm going to try to respond to posts I've set aside to date -- others > will likely have to wait til I return from my trip as I'm rather behind. > ======== 47539 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! Evan_Stamato... Colette, Sorry for Butting in here but I can't help myself. > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, nothing, no meanings whatsoever. ******************************** Well, it also has to be realised that there are different focuses. Science does what it does for various reasons such as monetary gain, pure intellectual pursuit (ie solve this problem purely because it's there), etc. None of the aims of science is to liberate the mind. The Dhamma as expounded perfectly by the Lord Buddha, however, has only liberation as the aim. Certainly there will be overlap, I don't expect any aspect of the dhamma to contradict scientific investigation but science cannot cover all that the dhamma teaches and the dhamma does not concern itself with questions whose answers are not conducive to the attainment of the liberation of mind. As for theology, it has nothing to do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to Buddhism or science. ******************************** colette: Thru meditation and the trance state yogis, arahants, buddhas, etc. have been able to achieve great things although you may choose to deny the ability of some people to walk on burning coals or place their fists thru solid objects or place a dagger thru the walls of his cave, etc. That is fine for a micro-manager that is consumed with controling everything in this life. I on the other hand tend to believe the mystical is a practicle coarse of study and vaible coarse as well. ******************************** Not so. The meditation that the Buddha teaches is a process of awakening not anything like a trance state. If you are going into a trance when meditating then you are not doing it right. Also, the mystical has nothing to do with dhamma. The "mystical" is something that cannot be fully explained whereas the dhamma can be explained, experienced and examined for oneself. Any powers that ensue from the practice of the path are by-products that when developed are repeatable with known conditions and effects. With Metta, Evan 47540 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! pt. 2 Evan_Stamato... Colette, Here I go again butting in. > ------- > > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > > since the begining of time/history. > > ---------------------------------- > N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for > yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The > Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results > accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or > later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. > ------- > colette: Oh how could I be so stupid and walk into your maze of your ignorance. Pardon me while I walk out by means of walking thru your walls! ******************* Let me see if I can elaborate on this issue a little more... What is wholesome? That which steers one towards liberation. What is unwholesome? That which steers one away from liberation. Therefore, one can go around killing living beings or lying to other beings in order to hurt them, or taking what is not theirs, however, the mind states which enable one to take part in that sort of behaviour are the mind states that hinder one's development on the path. You can call them kusala/akusala, wholesome/unwholesome, good/evil, etc but when it comes down to it the outcome is whether they lead to liberation or to more delusion. With Metta, Evan 47541 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 246 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (t) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. So long as there are still conditions for the arising of akusala citta, it has to be accompanied by moha, ignorance, which is ignorant of realities, by ahirika, shamelessness, which does not abhor akusala, by anottappa, recklessness, which does not fear the consequences of akusala, and by uddhacca, restlessness, which is restless as to kusala. No matter whether the akusala citta is coarse or more subtle, these four akusala cetasikas have to accompany the akusala citta and assist it in performing its function. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47542 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sesos con todo Evan_Stamato... Hi Colette, colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began reading the first page since it directly applied to myself immediately. "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. ----------------------- Whereas I would agree that the five aggregates that one would normally define as a "you" currently exit, it cannot be argued that any of these five aggregates is unchanging and lasts forever. Therefore, the moment you say "you", "me", "I", etc, this concept has already changed before you finish saying (typing) it. With Metta, Evan 47543 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thanks for the question. My understanding of sati in this post is as mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749, RobertK elaborates more on this. I guess there are various ways that one can thing of moral constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with others as self amongst other selves. Just out of interest, do you subscribe to the view that sati can and does arise in any situation? And do you think that a "random", unsustained moment of sati is of any benefit in the context of 24x7, sustained ignorance? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > The scenario you presented makes no sense to me given how I > understand sati. What is your definition? Mental seclusion of the > degree you're referring to seems to be more of absorption > concentration as opposed to sati. Some might even say moral > constraints are not possible without sati. > > - kel > > > You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > > situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > anyone > > engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > > proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > > car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively > > avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility > towards > > others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into > > others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is > > the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental > > seclusion from arising. 47544 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Jhana, violent blows and worms (was: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions.) sarahprocter... Hi RobK, Colette, Connie, Herman & all, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became > > enlightened, I believe. > > ____________ > Dear Sarah, > > I must have written at least 10 times on this forum about how the > great majority of disciples were sukkha-vipassana, so not sure why > you are repeating this? > ------------------------------- ... S: A misunderstanding on my part as I was rushing out. Apologies. ... > > S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't > > necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. > _____________ > You mean that some of them were sukkha-vipassaka? I don't think so. > _____________________ .... S: I’d be interested to see any references which make it clear that jhana was always used as basis for enlightenment for these disciples. ..... > > p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain > experiences of > > visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, > body-door > > experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door > processes. > > We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). > _________________- > I am bit lost, why are you bringing this up? ... Again, apologies for a rushed comment, in this case without the full context. I was adding a comment to your good discussion with Colette. Now I have it: Colette asked: > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will > ask: is > > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy > my > > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not > impact my > > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? > What > > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? .... You replied: > All rupas arise in groups. Sound(sadda) rupa must come togther with > other rupas- including pathavi(hardness). When hearing only the > element of sadda is known. However,pathavi- present in the same > group as the sound- is contacting the body base at the same time and > thus can impact(and even damage) the physical area supporting the > ear base. .... S: I agree that the impact (damage) to the physical area is a result of hardness being experienced through the body-sense and not of sound being experienced through the ear-sense. However, I was just wondering whether that hardness is the hardness arising in exactly the same kalapa as the sound. As we know, there cannot be an experience through two different sense doors at the same and this would seem to rule out the possibility of it being in the same kalapa. Colette, there is body-sense all over the body, including the ears and eyes. I’ll be interested to read any further comments anyone has on this detail. (Connie, if you come across the relevant parts of the tapes on any of these points, pls add anything further). Thank you Colette for raising such good questions too. Yes, pleasant and painful feeling only accompany body-sense consciousness (as opposed to the other senses), because of the impact of objects on the body-sense, ‘the violence of the impact’s blow’. I appreciate the way you’ve started from the beginning of ‘Cetasikas’ and are carefully reading and reflecting as you go. I’ll look forward to your further comments, but as I said to Tep, I may not be able to respond further til after my trip. Metta, Sarah p.s Connie, thanks for your other posts inc. the one on the Buddha’s omniscience. Glad you’re enjoying the Sri Lanka recordings, I think Herman would like the discussion at the very end on the worm – I was reminded of it when he added his cochlea implant comments. Colette, try listening to say, the first part of the discussion in India 04 on dhammastudygroup. org and let us know how you find it (if you can access it). ========= 47545 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Avidu, --- avinduandura wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I needed to move little further. ie,. if the nibbana is just a dream > like thing for those WHO ATTENDED nibbana? if it is exist in THEIR > mind only? or just a imagination? ... S: No it is a reality, the unconditioned reality for those who realize or experience nibbana. Of course, no ‘WHO’, but pa~n~naa (wisdom) and accompanying eightfold path factors that experience. .... > > Any way, this suspicious thoughts are fading away from my mind so I > would like to start learning buddhism in a methodical way. ... S: Good. Ask friends here any questions and share your reflections. Also, you may llike to see ‘Abhidhamma – beginners’ in ‘Useful Posts’ in the files section of DSG. .... > > There are so many dhamma talks, articles and books that we can > reed.but i feel those are not related to each other. so I would like > to start to read the tipitaka. > > I prefer pali as the language and believe reading skills are enouhg > to read and understand tipitaka. good news is all tipitaka is only > about 20000 pages.i saw this in a artical but not sure about it. > > also found tipitaka at www.metta.lk/tipitaka. > > this will be hard as I found no single pali dictionary that contain > all the pali words found in the tipitaka. and also no idea of how > many pali words are there in the tipitaka. .... Also see: > http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html .... > I appriceate your suggestion on this. > > You asked "What is life at this moment as you see it?" <...> > life at this movement is just a play of one such a program. I have > little control over choosing which program to play. > > but i have no control over which set of thoughts and action to > posses in a particular stage of life. I liked sweets in my childhood > but I dont want it any more. I didnt put any effort to make me > dislike sweets. it just happend. I think same rule will be applied > to the many of the things in life. money, respect, love etc.. ... S: yes, this is how I see it too . No self, no control.....conditioned dhammas... More on ‘Anatta and Control’ in ‘Useful Posts’. Avidu, please join in any of the other threads too, like the Visuddhimagga or Cetasikas ones....everyone enjoys questions, the more basic, the better! I’ll look forward to talking to you more later. Apologies in advance for any delays. Metta, Sarah ======= 47546 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:24am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, > My understanding of sati in this post is as > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of course different from just sati. > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > others as self amongst other selves. So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of arahats. We know there's only kiriyas appearing in arahats. Yet they can walk, eat, converse with people, give dhamma lectures and basically any activity just fine. So to me the scenario you're considering isn't really a problem for true sati-sampajanna. Or the standard abhidhamma argument that everything is so fast, it's just like a fleeting thought that you can return without really missing a beat. > Just out of interest, do you subscribe to the view that sati can and > does arise in any situation? And do you think that a "random", > unsustained moment of sati is of any benefit in the context of 24x7, > sustained ignorance? I think there are enough suttas with stories of people attaining enlightenment in many situations to warrant saying it need not be a limitation. However, likelihood of it happening to neyya people like us during ordinary activity is very tiny if not effectively zero. That is not to say there cannot be an object or trigger such things like panna or at least samvega. Like seeing some dead person reminds us we can go at any moment so not to be forgetful. Any kusala is of benefit and a really high quality moment can finish the business. But in general it's probably just a drop in the bucket. I do believe having sustained sati does increase the chance of real panna arising. So the reverse of sustained ignorance is likely just leading us to lower realms. - kel 47547 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,171 sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Phil), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 171. Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is > just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). It has the characteristic of > savageness, like a provoked snake. Its function is to spread, like a > drop of poison, or its function is to burn up its own support, like a > forest fire. It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy > who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance > (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with > poison. .... S: No matter how often we read comments like these, they always make an impact, I find. '....like stale urine mixed with poison.' And, let's be clear, dosa isn't just 'hate', but any aversion. The proximate cause: 'grounds for annoyance'. Lots more excellent material when we come to dosa in 'Cetasikas' too: "Dosa often arises on account of what others are doing or saying to us or to someone else. Even a good deed done to someone else can be a reason for annoyance if we deslike that person.' Phil's been making helpful comments on this topic. On wrong view and sth I said on a tape wheich you disagreed with. My only comment is that I think we underestimate the danger of wrong view and the cultivation of it. So my comment was to the effect that I think it's better not to hear the 'so-called' Buddha's teachings if it just leads to the following and developing of the wrong eightfold path. Wrong practice leads to more wrong practice, so any right view now, arises in spite of such wrong practice in the past, not because of it. (Actually, I was repeating a point that K.Sujin makes which took me a while to really appreciate too). Metta, Sarah ========== 47548 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Hi James, I hope you’re enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of scene. Have you been back to your temple? --- buddhatrue wrote: > >S: James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in > suttas with > > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at > dhammas > > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and > mine. > > James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the > content of suttas. ... S: Ah, but isn’t the content of suttas about dhammas? .... > > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this > because I > > see the truths as being common or universal. > > James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because > you believe that you embody the 'truths'? ... S: No, I don’t believe this. The ‘truths’ are all there are. Let’s take the khandhas – they are not inside or outside or belonging to anyone. There only are the khandhas arising and falling away. This is what I believe or what the thinking which I call ‘I’ believes at this moment. .... >Do you believe that > everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between > people? ... S: Not only for different people but also for us – different cittas and cetasikas experiencing and being experienced at each moment. So the truth is that what we take for people and ourselves are just these different namas and rupas too, of course. .... >Why can't you single yourself out as being different from > others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as > applying to you and your life? ... S: It’s no problem, but usually I don’t find it helpful. To give you a ‘personalized’ example: I read Azita’s comments about annoyance with people and I started reflecting on how I don’t think so much about people or find them annoying as I might have in the past. But immediately as I thought like this, there was attachment and conceit and clinging to an idea of ‘my thinking’ and ‘my lesser annoyance’. See here how the banner is up and flying already without needing to advertise it further or cling to it anymore. Better to just understand these dhammas – the thinking, the annoyance, the attachment, the conceit—as conditioned dhammas, not self at all. When it’s all ‘my experience’, there’s no understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. I think that such attachment to ‘self’ catches us off-guard all the time. But it’s just another dhamma and awareness can slip in at anytime, even when there’s useless thinking with papanca going on like this. I hope that helps and is ‘personal’ enough:). You see, I'm trying to work toward agreement too:)). ..... > James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about > DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in > that sutta. ... S: He’s talking about wholesome and unwholesome states and the path out of samsara. I read these as being dhammas. .... <...> >>Another short favourite > sutta or > > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen > Mallika > > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. > > James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, > not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should > each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. .... S: Qu Mallika: ‘There is no one...dearer to me than myself.’ K. Pasenadi: ‘Neither is there anyone...dearer to me than myself.’ The Buddha: ‘On traversing all directions with the mind One finds no one anywhere dearer than oneself.’. .... S: I think this makes it pretty clear that this is a common affliction before such attachment has been eradicated. Did the Buddha agree that we should each hold ourselves dearest? I don’t think so. ‘Likewise everyone holds himself most dear, Hence one who loves himself should not harm another.’ In other words, just as we are very attached to ourselves, so are others. Bearing this in mind, we should treat others well. The commentary which I’ve quoted before makes this very clear, I believe. “....whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.......since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonize with the hand, a clod of earth or a stick and so on, another being......For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one’s (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma.” (Masefiled transl of comy, Ireland transl of sutta, Sona Chapter 1, Udana) .... > I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was > suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the > distinctions between me, you, and us. ... S: I’m suggesting that the sooner dhammas are seen for what they are, not me, you and us, the better. Of course this doesn’t mean at all that we forget who we’re talking to or have any difficulty relating on a conventional level. .... > James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we > disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. ... S: I can see that and I think we’ve made some progress. Anyway, we both agree that there’s a lot to usefully consider in the sutta you selected and that the teachings are very deep. I do find it difficult to post on the road, James, and find it a good chance to work on the tape editing etc instead if I have any free time. However, I will be following the list very closely and will try to chip in briefly here and there, so no need for any panic attacks..lol:-)) Seriously, you always say the list is better when the moderators go away(or when we give the illusion of doing so), so enjoy! I’ll look forward to more discussions (apart from any ‘chip-ins’) with you later. Metta, Sarah ======== 47549 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:56pm Subject: Truth Triumphs ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Truthful Honesty is the Sixth Mental Perfection: Honesty is Trust Honesty is Truthful Honesty is Guarantee Honesty is Confidence Honesty is Consistence Honesty is Convincing Honesty is Certainty Honesty is Credibility Honesty is Reliability Honesty is Authenticity Honesty is Integrity Honesty is Accuracy Honesty is Commitment Honesty is Sincerity Honesty is Security Honesty is Reality Honesty is a Must. Honesty characteristically never deceives, it's function is to verify the actual & factual, it's manifestation is excellence... Sincere exact truthfulness is the proximate cause of honesty! All evil states & crimes converge upon transgression of Truth... Devotion to Truth is the only reliable foundation of Nobility! Like The Buddha demand of your own mind: You have to give me an honest answer, understand?! I won't accept anything phoney. And once you've answered, you have to stick to that very answer & not slide around. Don't be a traitor to yourself. Be sober & straight. Therefore: Undertake this 4th training rule of avoiding all false speech... If one is not true to the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's teachings will not be true to oneself, either... That Dhamma, which is used only as a costume, a uniform or alibi, does not bear fruit, as it's intention is not true! Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. If one is painstakingly honest towards oneself, one is also meticulously honest towards others. If one however deceives oneself, believing own lies, one automatically also deceives others, betraying them. Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. Make an island of yourself, be your own light & illumination, make yourself your only safe haven; there is no other protection. Make Truth your only island, make Truth your sole refuge; make Truth your lone lamp; there is no other luminosity. Digha Nikaya, 16 The straight person, self-controlled, keeping precepts, open & honest, is both worthy & fit for the yellow robe. The hiding person, uncontrolled, immoral, keeping secrets, not honest, is neither worthy nor fit for the yellow robe. Dhammapada 9+10 Overcome the furious by friendship; overcome the evil one by goodness; overcome the stasher by generosity; overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 The one who destroys life; The one who speaks false; The one who takes what is not given; The one who mates with another's partner; The one who is addicted to drugs and alcohol; Such one - even in this world - digs up his own root !!! Dhammapada 246-47 They who falsely declare: "That happened" about what did not happen, or: "I did not do that" about what they actually did, they earn themselves a ticket to grilling in Hell. Dhammapada 306 When the Blessed One heard about the king's spies, who for money stole information from others, he explained: One should not take just any job. One should not be another's man. One should not live dependent upon another. One should not sell the truth for money. Udana VI - 2 The Bodhisatta was once caught by a man-eater, which sat him free on the condition that he returned the next day. He kept his word & did so & much later remembered: Protecting this way of truth, having given up my life & kingdom, I thereby set free 100 captured nobles, as the man-eater lost his nerve. In honesty I had thereby reached ultimate perfection. Mahasutasoma-Jataka no. 537 ______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47550 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep & all other Meditators: Regarding requisites for Depth and Success in Meditation: If one, despite considerable effort within or "inside" the meditation itself, fails to make progress, reach depth, settle in stable calm or gain absorption, then one should consider the major "outside the meditation" factor: Morality: "Are my Morality properly purified, quite purified, completely purified?", "Do I keep the 5 precepts properly clean, quite clean, completely clean?", "Do I keep the 8 precepts clean on each and all of the observance days?"! Since as said: "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, releasing, praised by the wise, uninfluenced, unbendable and favourable to concentration of mind." DN 16 Because: The proximate cause of concentration is happiness. The proximate cause of happiness is tranquillity. The proximate cause of tranquillity is satisfaction. The proximate cause of satisfaction is joy. The proximate cause of joy is gladness. The proximate cause of gladness is absence of regrets. The proximate cause of absence of regrets is Morality! It is in this way that Morality (sila) gradually enables attainment of Concentration (samadhi)... And therefore also this reciprocal causality: Exactly to the extent that Morality is incomplete will Concentration also remain incomplete ... Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 47551 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 439 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala has been explained in the previous post. 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala Arahatta means 'eradicated'. Maggatthaana is made up of 'magga and thaana'. Magga here means 'magga citta' or 'path-consciousness' and thaana means 'place'. So arahatta maggatthaana means 'the place where arahatta magga citta arises'. Puggala means 'individual'. So 'arahatta maggatthaana puggala' means an individual where arahatta magga citta arises at. Actually there is no puggala or individual as many of the worldly people think. But there are only dhamma of ultimate realities and they are citta, cetasika, ruupa, and nibbana. Arahatta maggatthaana puggala is just a combination of 5 khandha and they are 1. ruupakkhandha (hadaya vatthu or heart base) 2. vedanakkhandha (magga sukha or path-pleasure) 3. sannakkhandha (magga sanna or path-cognition) 4. sankhaarakkhandha (maggassancetana etc or path-volition etc) 5. vinnaanakkhandha (magga citta or path-consciousness) Likewise there are 6 other ariyas and they are just these aggregates. 3. Anaagaami phalatthaana puggala This is an individual where anaagaami phala citta arises. Anagaami = ana + aagaami Ana means 'no'. Aagaami means 'come to the village of human beings'. So anagaami means 'not coming back to human realm'. So anaagams are non-returners. This puggala or individual is where anaagaami phala citta or non-returner-path-fruition-consciousness arises. 4. Anaagaami maggatthaana puggala This individual is where anagami magga citta arises. 5. Sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala This individual is where sakadaagaami phala citta arises. Sakadaagaami = saki.m + aagaami Saki.m means 'once' and aagaami means 'come back to human village'. So sakadaagams are once-returners to human realms. They have 2 more lives from their current life. If 2nd last life is not human they can come back to human realm as last life and there they all become arahats. If they are reborn in human realm in the 2nd last life they will not be reborn in human realm in their last life. They will become anaagam or arahatta. So they are called once-returners to human realms. 6. Sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala This individual is where sakadaagaami magga citta arises. 7. Sotapatti phalatthaana puggala This individual is where sotapatti phala citta arises. Sotapatti = sota + aapatti Sota = flow, the flow of river Aapatti means 'reach'. Sotaapatti means 'those who reach the river's flow or who enter the flow of river or stream'. They are also known as stream-enterer or stream-entrants. Because if a log reaches the stream it will be carried away along the flow and finally reach the ocean (nibbana). Sotapatti magga citta is the first stage where individual reaches the gate of ariyas. 8. Sotapatti maggatthaana puggala This individual is where sotapatti magga citta arises. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47552 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 03 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 3. 36 contemplation on sense-bases (ayatana) There are 6 sense-bases and there are 6 contemplation on each. So there are 36 contemplations on sense-bases (ayatana) 6 sense-bases are 1. cakkhaayatana (eye-sense-base) & rupaayatana (form-sense-base) 2. sotaayatana (ear-sense-base) & saddaayatana (sound-sense-base) 3. ghaanayatana(nose-sense-base) & gandhaayatana(smell-sense-base) 4. jivhaayatana(tongue-sense-base) & rasaayatana(taste-sense-base) 5. kaayaayatana(body-sense-base) & photthabbaayatana(touch-sen-base) 6. manaayatana (mind-sense-base)& dhammaayatana(mind-object-sen-base) The first in each pair is internal sense-base or ajjhattika ayatana & the second in each pair is external sense-base or bahiddha ayatana. 6 contemplations are 1. this is eye (cakkhaayatana) 2. this is form (ruupaayatana) 3. this is fetter arises from them ( 10 fetters ) 4. this is 'unwise attention' that makes arising of fetters. 5. this is 'wise attention' that makes dissolution of fetters. 6. this is path-knowledge that eradicate this or that fetter. 1 and 2 are replaced by appropriate ayatana or sense-base. Again the last contemplation might be thought as impossible for ordinary lay people. But The Buddha described these and these are not prescription. While those who just become sotapams / sakadagams / anagams / aharats will contemplate the 6th contemplation all puthujana can contemplate with transferred knowledge. That is 'If these 'fetter of conceit' or maana samyojana vanishes forever and it never arises again that would be because of arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge or eraicating path-knowledge.' Puthujana just contemplates like that. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, and 36 contemplations on sense-bases have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 = 76 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47553 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Howard and Htoo, Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Quite paramatthic?? The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis of physical organs or physical part of the body. Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always right. There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone thinks that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates inability to see what is real. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47554 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: Where is the Path?/ Already Answered! htootintnaing Dear Htoo - I am sorry to disappoint you. Your questions were already answered in my last post. Maybe it is now your turn to reread that post and discover my intended answers by yourself. With unlimited Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, What I wrote were not questions. They are for contemplation. Please read Digha Nikaaya 15. Then you will become clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47555 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Htoo) - --------------------------------------- Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback ------------------------------------ Howard: Any time! ;-) ------------------------------------ Kind Regards Herman =================== With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman and Howard, Just a question. Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? With respect, Htoo Naing 47556 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:37am Subject: Hinderers-Obstructors-Delayers htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 2 sets of hindrances. The first set comprises a total of 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances whereas the second set includes a total of 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. Suttas preache there are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. These 5 hindrances or nivarana dhamma are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous hindrances' 2. byaapaada nivarana or 'ill-willed hindrances' 3. thina-middha nivarana or 'slothed-torpored hindrances' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'wandering-worrying hindrances' 5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious hindrances'. These 5 hindrances obstruct arising of jhaana-kusala. By obstructing jhana-kusala they indirectly obstruct arising of magga-kusala. Here what needed is to contemplate on the fact that whether jhana can give rise to magga-naana. There were many many jhaana-laabhii or jhaana-possesser or jhaana- owner or jhana-holder or jhana-handler or jhana-expert even before the era of The Buddha's teaching. If jhaana can give rise to magga- naana The Buddha would not have been needed to arise to preach anatta and point out the way to nibbana. But this is not the case. So just jhaana attainment is nothing for magga-naana even though it may support arising of magga naana. But arising of magga naana is also obstructed by a dhamma. That dhamma is subtle dhamma. It is so subtle that even the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama could not see it, could not eliminate it. That subtle dhamma is also a hindrance. It is also an obstruction. Even though that subtle dhamma do not obstruct jhaana it does hinder arising of magga-kusala. What is that dhamma? It is avijja-nivarana or 'ignoring hindrances'. This is subtle dhamma. All jhaana including 5 ruupa jhaana and 4 aruupa jhaana do not have any trace of moha or ignorance. But without the knowledge given by The Buddha no one will see anatta. This inability to see anatta is a hindrance. This hindrance is avijja- nivarana. So in the second set of hindrances there are 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. They are 1. sensuous hindrances (kaamacchanda nivarana) 2. ill-willed (byaapaada nivarana) 3. slothed-torpored (thina-middha nivarana) 4. wandering-worrying (uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana) 5. suspicious (vicikicchaa nivarana) 6. ignoring (avijjaa nivarana) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47557 From: Nicholas Benedict Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:42am Subject: Bangkok robitusson2000 Hi, This is my first post. I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here for English speakers or foreigners? Thanks, Nick. sarah abbott wrote: Hi James, I hope you’re enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of scene. Have you been back to your temple? <....> 47558 From: nina Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 171. Dosa. Text Vis.: Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). ------- The Pali term dussati used here means: to become bad, corrupted, to offend, injure. The cetasika dosa hates or has aversion, and it also causes the accompanying dhammas to be corrupted or to have aversion. This is expressed by the term: by means of it (tena). This expression is often used to indicate that the dhammas that arise together condition one another. Here, all of them are affected by dosa. -------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of savageness, like a provoked snake. --------- N: The Tiika comments on savageness (Ca.n.dikka.m): anger or irritation (kujjhana.m). ---------- Text Vis.: Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, -------- N: The Tiika explains first about the way of occurring of dosa in oneself. The Expositor (II, p. 342) explains: . One is affected by an undesirable sense object just as poison makes the body writhe. --------- Text Vis.: or its function is to burn up its own support, like a forest fire. _____ N: The term support, nissaya, refers to the heartbase, the physical base of all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. The Tiika explains that dosa as it were pierces the body. Sometimes dosa is compared to a dart that pierces the body. It affects also the body and can cause sickness. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with poison. ------- N: Persecuting is a translation of duusana. However, this also means: defiling. The Tiika explains that duusana, defiling, pertains to oneself and others. By dosa one harms oneself and others. One persecutes or hates someone else because of an undesirable object (for him who hates) when another person experiences an enjoyable result. Therefore it is said that dosa should be regarded like stale urine mixed with poison. As to the proximate cause of dosa, the Visuddhimagga refers to the the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? (The thought): He has done me harm- stirs up strife; so also the thoughts: he is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear and loved one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; he has done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good to such an one; he will do good to him...² ***** Conclusion: There are many shades of dosa, aversion, it may be very slight or strong. There are many synonyms of dosa that express different degrees. It can be fear, anxiety, annoyance, irritation, distress, sorrow, anger, hate, malignity, hostility or violence. In all these cases dosa dislikes, has aversion towards the object experienced at that moment. It is always accompanied by unhappy feeling. Dosa is savage, not soft and gentle like mettaa. There is no wieldiness, lightness, adaptability, no shame of akusala, no fear of its consequences. The Expositor (II, p. 342) explains that dosa ruins everything that is good and beautiful, thereby showing its danger: The Dhammasanga.ni speaks of . The Expositor explains : Dosa is among the cetasikas that are the khandha of formations. The khandhas arise because of their appropriate conditions and fall away immediately. There is no person who could exercise control over the arising of dosa. But right understanding of it can be developed. Through right understanding of this cetasika we come to understand that the circumstances of life or other people are not the real cause of dosa. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant sense objects and when we experience an unpleasant object, dosa is likely to arise. So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling anymore to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa. **** Nina 47559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 12-07-2005 02:35 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: I think I can see how consciousness regulates the > breath rupas. > > As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas > vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling? ------ N: There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not mindfulness of breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. I do not understand your point. Nina. 47560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Tep, op 12-07-2005 01:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right > view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. ---- N: riight. ------- > N: The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: >> vitakka hits the object so that panna can realize it as impermanent, >> dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka pannaa would not be able to do this. > > Tep: Is this 'vitakka' the jhana factor of the 1st jhana? ------- It is the same cetasika but the object is different. In order to attain the first jhana, vitakka is needed in order to concentrate on the object of samatha. It hits the meditation subject again and again. In the higher jhanas when the yogavacara has become more skilled, vitakka is no longer needed. In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self. In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. ------- If it is, then it implies that panna-khandha (for penetrating the path) is supported (at > least) by the 1st jhana. ------ N: It depends for whom. The person who is jhaanalabhii or the person who is not. ----------- T: Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. -------- N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. But in both cases they have to accompany paññaa, respectively paññaa of the level of samatha and paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. Nina. 47561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] brain etc. nilovg Hi Colette, Thanks for your three posts. Good when you find you can verify things. Please continue on this way. You do not have to have blind faith. Brain, science, etc. This is just another angle. This is not denied by the Buddha. But he taught a way to be liberated from attachment, aversion, ignorance. Nina. op 11-07-2005 17:58 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you > may come >> to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. > > colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began > reading the first page since it directly applied to myself > immediately. > > "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify > myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the > Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. 47562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. nilovg Hi Herman, cittas are arising and falling away very fast. In between our work, or driving a car, there can be a moment of kusala citta with sati and understanding of the visible object or hardness at that moment. But I do not say that it is easy. Such a short moment of satipatthana would never interfere with what you are doing. On the contrary, it is to one's benefit. Satipatthana is not the same as the development of concentration on one meditation subject. Nina. >> You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any >> situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > anyone >> engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close >> proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a >> car at a 100kmh ... 47563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Larry, op 12-07-2005 02:19 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, > thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them." > How does this fit into the practice? ------ N: After that the Co repeats: they are difficult to know but they appear to the bhikkhu. The anapanasati is included in the first Application of Mindfulness and this is very meaningful. There is not only breath the yogavacara has to be mindful of, there are also many other dhammas: first the four great elements and the derived rupas are mentioned. The Co. states, just before the section of feelings that the word , body, refers to ruupakaaya and naama-kaaya, because< contemplation of aniccaa etc. (aniccaanupassana) pertains to naama-kaaya and ruupa-kaaya, not to the kaayanimitta.> Thus, we learns that he is not only aware of breath, but also of citta, cetasikas, feeling. That is why the Visuddhimagga stresses that the four tetrads pertain severally to the four Applications of Mindfulness. The objects of satipatthana should not be limited. All the subjects of satipatthana we read about in the satipatthanasutta are the most helpful means to be non-forgetful, to be aware in any situation of whatever object appears. We should profit to the full of all these reminders we find in this sutta. Take the postures, the parts of the body: they are with us in daily life. ------ L: Also, regarding the fall of feeling and the other two, that seems to be linked to the cessation of ignorance, desire, action, and contact. How does the cessation of > ignorance condition the subsiding of feeling, etc.? ------ N: When we are liberated from the cycle there is no more rebirth, no longer the arising of nama and rupa, no longer the arising of feeling. But as the Co. indicated: the fall should be seen in two ways: momentary, and in relation to the D.O. Momentary ceasing: this is the characteristic of impermanence or aniccaa. The stages of insight have to be developed in the right order. ------ L:I can see how the cessation of ignorance conditions the cessation of feeling, but I don't > see how the subsiding sub-moment is conditioned. Conditioned cessation > isn't the same as conditioned subsiding. Is it just a parallel? ------ N: this refers to the two ways. As to the momentary cessation: a dhamma falls away since it has arisen because of conditions. There is a coming together of different conditioning factors for the arising of a dhamma. These factors associate just for a moment, and then, since the conditioning factors are momentary, also the conditioned dhamma has to fall away. For example seeing: here is a coinciding of different factors: the association of visible object with the eyebase so that seeing can arise. Seeing is preceded by the eye-door adverting-consciousness. Seeing is the result of kamma. Only if we distinguish nama from rupa their falling away can be discerned later on. Nina. 47564 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thanks for your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > My understanding of sati in this post is as > > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 > > I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of course > different from just sati. == I am happy to accept that I do not know the difference. Would you be so kind as to briefly explain a bit more. == > > > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and > > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > > others as self amongst other selves. > > So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting > since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For > every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of arahats. > We know there's only kiriyas appearing in arahats. Yet they can > walk, eat, converse with people, give dhamma lectures and basically > any activity just fine. So to me the scenario you're considering > isn't really a problem for true sati-sampajanna. == Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya cittas, even for a short while? Thank you for all your other comments. I do appreciate them Kind Regards Herman 47565 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, but that can only happen if you can write at my level without changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. Some more below. == > > Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set > in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the > ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep > only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) > > Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no > matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. > Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite > paramatthic, actually :-) > > Thanks for both your feedback > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Herman, > > Quite paramatthic?? > > The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are > sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis of > physical organs or physical part of the body. == Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == > > Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always right. > > There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. > > Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada > ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone thinks > that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates > inability to see what is real. == I have looked and could not immediately understand what sotappasada ruupa means. But I do know what hearing means . (there's hope for me :-)) And I also know that without physical organ, the relevant sense is not there. I am sure that I am very incompetent at seeing what is real, but it just appears to me that the physical sense is a sine-qua-non (Latin for - without which not) for sensation. Is the ear not a physical sense organ? Is the cochlear implant not a physical sense organ, but different to the ear, and giving different hearing than an ear? Kind Regards Herman > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47566 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok sarahprocter... Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > Hi, This is my first post. > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > for English speakers or foreigners? ... S: Yes, you're going to get a lot of help. I know Sukin (and maybe Betty and Ivan Matt if they're reading) will 'adopt' you and help with lots of details and answer any questions. others who've spent time in Bangkok like James or Phil may add comments too. Many of us here study with A.Sujin and make special trips to Bangkok to discuss the Dhamma with her. Jon & I will be there next month, so perhaps we'll see you. Why not say a little more about your background and interest in Buddhism meanwhile which will help people when they respond. How long have you lived in Bkk? Metta, Sarah ========== 47567 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you for your question. > Dear Herman and Howard, > > Just a question. > > Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? > == I don't know, because 1] I don't know what sotavinnaana cittas are like 2] I don't know the theory of sotavinnaana cittas 3] I don't have a cochlear implant 4] There are no references in the Canon, or any other credible sources, as to which cittas arise at cochlear implants Do you think sotavinnaana cittas arise at cochlear implants? Kind Regards Herman > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 47568 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:23am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 Dear Herman and Kel, Here is a nice story from the Dhammapadaatthakatha related to this issue: http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm Verse 348 The Story of Uggasena Uggasena was a skilful acrobat. ""Then, Uggasena went back to Rajagaha, and it was proclaimed that Uggasena would publicly demonstrate his skill in seven days' time. On the seventh day, a long pole was put up and Uggasena stood on top of it. At a signal given from below he somersaulted seven times on the pole. At about this time, the Buddha saw Uggasena in his vision and knew that time was ripe for Uggasena to attain arahatship. So, he entered Rajagaha and willed that the audience should turn their attention to him instead of applauding Uggasena for his acrobatic feats. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 348. Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay. At the end of the discourse Uggasena, who was still on top of the pole, attained arahatship. He came down and was soon admitted to the Order by the Buddha."" The pole was said to be death-defyingly high. Yet Ugasena was able to go through all stages of insight and attain arahantship without falling off. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Kel, > > Thanks for your post. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > > My understanding of sati in this post is as > > > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 > > > > I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of > course > > different from just sati. > == > I am happy to accept that I do not know the difference. Would you be > so kind as to briefly explain a bit more. > == > > > > > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations > and > > > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > > > others as self amongst other selves. > > > > So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting > > since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For > > every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of > 47569 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/12/05 12:18:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... quotes Sarah as saying: I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree unequivocally shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. I would like to add something in this regard that anticipates a possible objection: Some have doubted the truth of the Anupada Sutta, because in another sutta, MN 74, it is said that Sariputta acheieved full awakening while fanning the Buddha, and the Anupada Sutta said that this happened upon exiting "the ninth jhana" of cessation of feeling and perception. But it has been pointed out on another list that these need not be contradictory, because the meditative process discussed in the Anupada Sutta lasted over a two-week period, Sariputta had great contol over his entry and exit of jhanas, and there is no reason that he might not have entered and exited "the ninth jhana" momentarily, while in the process of fanning the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47570 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, > but that can only happen if you can write at my level without > changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your > level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as > least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. > > Some more below. ---------- Dear Herman, Thanks for your reply. I will do it when I have more time. For the time being this is a response that I know you posted a message for me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47571 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN IX.2, Cetana Sutta. Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) --> Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in order to become consummate in virtues. Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Dear friend Tep & all other Meditators: > Regarding requisites for Depth and Success in Meditation: > > If one, despite considerable effort within or "inside" the meditation itself, fails to make progress, reach depth, settle in stable calm or gain absorption, then one should consider the major "outside the meditation" factor: Morality: > "Are my Morality properly purified, quite purified, completely purified?", > "Do I keep the 5 precepts properly clean, quite clean, completely clean?", > "Do I keep the 8 precepts clean on each and all of the observance days?"! > > Since as said: > "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, releasing, praised by the wise, uninfluenced, unbendable and favourable to concentration of mind." DN 16 > > Because: > The proximate cause of concentration is happiness. > The proximate cause of happiness is tranquillity. > The proximate cause of tranquillity is satisfaction. > The proximate cause of satisfaction is joy. > The proximate cause of joy is gladness. > The proximate cause of gladness is absence of regrets. > The proximate cause of absence of regrets is Morality! > > It is in this way that Morality (sila) gradually enables > attainment of Concentration (samadhi)... > And therefore also this reciprocal causality: > Exactly to the extent that Morality is incomplete > will Concentration also remain incomplete ... > (snipped) 47572 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - > > > In a message dated 7/12/05 12:18:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... quotes Sarah as saying: I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree unequivocally shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. I would like to add something in this regard that anticipates a possible objection: > Some have doubted the truth of the Anupada Sutta, because in another sutta, MN 74, it is said that Sariputta acheieved full awakening >while fanning the Buddha, and the Anupada Sutta said that this >happened upon exiting "the ninth jhana" of cessation of feeling and perception. But it has been pointed out on another list that these need not be contradictory, because the meditative process discussed in the >Anupada Sutta lasted over a two-week period, Sariputta had great contol over his entry and exit of jhanas, and there is no reason that > he might not have entered and exited "the ninth jhana" momentarily, >while in the process of fanning the Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard > Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= 47573 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Bhante, Jon, and all) - In a message dated 7/12/05 8:44:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN IX.2, Cetana Sutta. Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) --> Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in order to become consummate in virtues. Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. Respectfully, Tep ========================== I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understandin g "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47574 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/12/05 9:05:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. ==================== Thank you. I'd like to point out for the record, though, that this resolution didn't have its origin with me. The explanation came from someone other than me on another list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47575 From: Nicholas Benedict Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:28am Subject: Nick in Bangkok robitusson2000 Thanks Sarah. I've been interested in Buddhism for a long time and I took refuge 3 years ago with a Tibetan lama called Dr. Akong Rinpoche. I have been doing very patchy practise over that time, mostly in the Tibetan Kagyu and Nyingma groups in Dublin, Ireland. I find it much easier and more productive when I'm part of a group which meets regularly to practise. If it's left up to me, I do very little. I moved to Bangkok last year and I know there are various retreat centres around the country which I have big plans on visiting. But what I'm looking for in Bangkok city is a group that meets regularly or a teacher who gives classes in meditation. I know there aren't any Tibetan groups in Thailand which would be my preference but I'm definitely open to the Thai Therevada tradition. It would be great to meet someone here in Thailand who knows a bit about the options here. Thanks very much for your help, Nick. <....> ... S: Why not say a little more about your background and interest in Buddhism meanwhile which will help people when they respond. How long have you lived in Bkk? <...> 47576 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Herman, I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my reply to your message. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, but that can only happen if you can write at my level without changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. Some more below. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. But your level are already high and I even think that you have more knowledge than me. I am just at the foot of a mountain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as > set > in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can > sleep > only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) > Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no > matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies > that. > Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite > paramatthic, actually :-) > Thanks for both your feedback > Kind Regards >Herman ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Herman, > Quite paramatthic?? > The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are > sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis > of > physical organs or physical part of the body. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea implant or transplant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always > right. > > There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. > > Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada > > ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone > thinks > > that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates > > inability to see what is real. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I have looked and could not immediately understand what sotappasada ruupa means. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 28 ruupas. sotappasaada or sota-pasada is one of these 28 ruupas. These 28 ruupas are paramattha dhamma. Paramattha dhamma are objects of satipatthaana. Paramattha dhamma are objects of vipassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: But I do know what hearing means . (there's hope for me :-)) And I also know that without physical organ, the relevant sense is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All most all know 'what hearing means'. There is hope. Physical sense organs are bases for arising of consciousness. Without physical sense organ, the relevant sense is not there, you are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I am sure that I am very incompetent at seeing what is real, but it just appears to me that the physical sense is a sine-qua-non (Latin for - without which not) for sensation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the ear not a physical sense organ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is. But not all physical sense organs have pasada ruupas at all time. This level is not high, I hope. There are all 5 organs in me. I have eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. When I see something, I am not hearing, smelling, tasting, touching anything. When I am not hearing, smelling, tasting, touching anything there is no pasada ruupa or hearing, smelling, tasting, touching but pasada ruupa for seeing and it is cakkuppasada or cakkhu- pasada or eye-sensitivity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the cochlear implant not a physical sense organ, but different to the ear, and giving different hearing than an ear? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If there is hearing there has arisen ear-consciousness. If ear- consciousness has arisen, there has already arisen sota-pasada ruupa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47577 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thank you for your question. >Dear Herman and Howard, > Just a question. > Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: I don't know, because 1] I don't know what sotavinnaana cittas are like ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sotavinnaana citta. Sota here means 'ear'. Vi means 'distinguishingly' 'distinctly'. Naana means 'knowledge' 'knowing'. Citta means 'consciousness'. One of the definitions of consciousness is that it is 'thoughts along with feeling' in Oxford Dictionary. Sotavinnaana citta is 'a consciousness that arises at ear distinguishingly knows at ear'. It perceives sound as its object. But as it depends on ear which is the station or the place where it works it is named as 'ear-consciousness'. It is 'consciousness to sound'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: 2] I don't know the theory of sotavinnaana cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When hear, there arises hearing-consciousness or ear-consciousness. It is sotavinnaana citta. But when noticed the state of hearing is no more just ear-consciousness. Because there have already been consctructed with idea depending on markers on object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: 3] I don't have a cochlear implant 4] There are no references in the Canon, or any other credible sources, as to which cittas arise at cochlear implants Do you think sotavinnaana cittas arise at cochlear implants? Kind Regards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful question. If there arise hearing there arise ear-consciousness. The problem is to define 'hearing'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47578 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Tep and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical > explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 > and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. > > > Respectfully yours, > > > Tep > > ========= One might consider these words: Two stanzas in the Theragatha (995, 996) relate, in words ascribed to the Venerable Sariputta himself, the way in which he attained Arahatship. There he tells us: "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#i It seems highly unlikely, but not impossible I suppose, that Ven. Sariputta could be "listening intently" to the Dhamma-preaching of the Buddha and slipping in and out of the fourth immaterial attainment. Not only that, Sariputta himself emphasized that it was his listening to the Dhamma-preaching, directly from the Buddha, which caused his release. And, unlike some, my goal isn't to devalue to role of jhana by pointing this out. Jhana is the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path and is therefore necessary for enlightenment. According to the texts, after his ordination and prior to enlightenment, for two weeks, Sariputta was staying in a cave and practicing the jhanas (with relative ease compared to Venerable Maha Moggallana who kept falling asleep). Therefore, jhana was a conditioning factor in Ven. Sariputta's enlightenment. Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. Metta, James 47579 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. ===================== I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month (in others). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47580 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,171 philofillet Hi Sarah I see you're off on a trip, so I'll pop in and respond to this before you're on your way. (Rob K and Nina, thanks for your comments re "there must be detachment at the beginning" and Kel thanks re the listening - I'll be back to you in a few days.) > On wrong view and sth I said on a tape wheich you disagreed with. Yes, I came across it again yesterday, that people who are just accumulating clinging and wrong view would be better off not having heard anything about Buddhism in the first place. >My only > comment is that I think we underestimate the danger of wrong view and the > cultivation of it. So my comment was to the effect that I think it's > better not to hear the 'so-called' Buddha's teachings if it just leads to > the following and developing of the wrong eightfold path. Wrong practice > leads to more wrong practice, so any right view now, arises in spite of > such wrong practice in the past, not because of it. Ph; Yes, I certainly see what you mean. I also see what the woman who responded means. (I keep forgetting her name) She said that she thinks panna develops as we come across false or wrong teachings,that this interaction with wrong view might help panna to develop in a way as it learns to discriminate between right and wrong view. She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong view. When A. Sujin asked if this would be "mixed view" and she said yes, there was some laughter, but I think it's a fair term. After all, none of us have right view all the time, unless we're sotapanna, right? So what is there? Moments of right view, moments of wrong view, all mixed together. Think of the sutta about the splendid lotus growing in the muck - isn't that like right view growing and emerging from wrong view in a way? If there are conditions for panna, there will be panna, whether we are engaged in wrong view or not, before it arises, maybe? But then again, I guess not. We know right view comes first, always, like the dawn before the sunrise. Yes, I see your point. And I see the other point. Wrong view, this clinging to results, it's very pervasive and I would say envelops most of the modern Buddhist world. But some people do emerge from it, like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of Dhamma, I think. No big deal. I certainly see what you mean. Its safe to say that most people who get entangled in wrong view will not emerge from it. Have a great trip, and thanks again for the recorded talks, and all you've been doing here. And thanks also to Jon. The other day Naomi called him "Kamome (pr. Kah mo may) no Jonathan", which is the Japanese title for "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." She knows him especially from his introductions to each talk ("participants include...") which she says sound very solemn and urgent, like for a group of NASA and other experts getting together to discuss a plan to prevent Earth from being destroyed by a comet or something.... :) Metta, Phil 47581 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 440 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala 8 ariyaa puggala or 8 pure saints individuals have been explained in the previous post. There are 4 more individuals. They all are puthujana. Puthujanna = Puthu + janaanam Puthu means 'many' that is many kilesas and janaanam means 'cause to arise'. Puthujana are where kilesas arise. There are 4 puthujana puggala or 4 impure individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala 3. sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 4. duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala Tihetuka means 'triple-rooted'. This means that there are 3 roots and they are alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, and amoha or non-ignorance. Even though these individuals are full of kilesa and they are causing arising of may kilesa they do have the potential to attain magga naana and at least they have the potential to attain jhaana. These individuals are born with patisandhi cittas that have all 3 roots of alobha, adosa, amoha. 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa (puthu-kilesa) arise and they just have only 2 roots. They are alobha or non-attachment and adosa or non-aversion. But they do not have amoha or non-ignorance or panna when they are born. They will never attain magga or they will even never attain jhaana in their current life however hard they have been trying to attain magga or jhaana. 3. sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa arise and they do not have any root in their patisandhi citta and nor does bhavanga citta and cuti citta. These are beings born in human realm or deva beings of lower deva realm with poor deva power. When they are human beings they are like congenital blind or deaf. 4. duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa arise and they do not have any root in their patisandhi citta. Unlike sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala they are not in the happy destination. They are beings in one of 4 woeful states or realms or planes of existence. In real sense there is no hell beings, no animal, no ghost, no demon but just citta, cetasika and ruupa. These duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala are just a combination of 5 aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47582 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything > about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. > ===================== > I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of > the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month > (in others). > > With metta, > Howard I could be mistaken, of course. What I was thinking is that the text reads such: "Sàriputta concentrates a fortinight uninterrupted, secluded from sensual desires and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhàna..." This doesn't make it clear to me if he was in the first jhana for a fortnight or if the entire process that follows in the sutta also occurred during a fortnight. However, if the sutta really reads that the process occurred over a half-month, as you claim some translations read, then I would be more inclined to accept the hypothesis you subscribe to. Is there ambiguity of time when translating Pali? I am inclined to believe the translation to be straightforward, but could be mistaken. Howard, what translations state a half-month instead of a fortnight? Are they available online? Metta, James 47583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:acrobat on pole nilovg Hi Rob K, what a very telling example. He did not attain jhana first. Nina. op 12-07-2005 13:23 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > The Story of Uggasena ...> > The pole was said to be death-defyingly high. Yet Ugasena was able > to go through all stages of insight and attain arahantship without > falling off. 47584 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:51:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything > about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. > ===================== > I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of > the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month > (in others). > > With metta, > Howard I could be mistaken, of course. What I was thinking is that the text reads such: "Sàriputta concentrates a fortinight uninterrupted, secluded from sensual desires and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhàna..." This doesn't make it clear to me if he was in the first jhana for a fortnight or if the entire process that follows in the sutta also occurred during a fortnight. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I assumed the latter. It would be an odd reading, I think, otherwise. But, of course, it *might* be restricted to the 1st jhana. But why would this matter? If anything, I think the harmonizing of the 2 suttas would be even easier if the two weeks pertained only to the 1st jhana. I'm missing the point you are making. ----------------------------------------------- However, if the sutta really reads that the process occurred over a half-month, as you claim some translations read, then I would be more inclined to accept the hypothesis you subscribe to. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The question of whether the time period pertained only to the 1st jhana or not would still be there. I don't understand the point about a half month (which is the way the translation goes on the Dhammasukka site of Ven. Vilmalramsi's), because a fortnight = 2 weeks = a half month, isn't that so? ------------------------------------------- Is there ambiguity of time when translating Pali? I am inclined to believe the translation to be straightforward, but could be mistaken. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I guess you are referring to whether the time period "distributes" across a number of events or not. I don't know. ----------------------------------------- Howard, what translations state a half-month instead of a fortnight? Are they available online? -------------------------------------- Howard: As I say, that's on the venerable's site, and I'm assuming he used a "half a month" instead of a "fortnight" for clarification purposes. His website is as follows: http://www.dhammasukha.org ------------------------------------------------ Metta, James ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard {Ven. Samahita and all} - > Howard: I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. > In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there > would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. > I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understanding "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) > Tep: Your reasoning is almost solid, Howard. So it seems clear that the flow diagram is not sufficient. Your reasoning goes: if there were no other required activities (such as samadhi and anupassana) other than purification of virtues, then monks who had perfect sila would automatically become arahants. The missing characteristic in the sequential flow diagram was the action of the non-linear process of fulfillment. The flow however only indicates that it only moves forward. Once the monk is purified in sila, he is automatically remorseful. Once he is remorseful, he automatically joyful, etc. This is how it works. The process of "fulfilling" virtues is not isolated: it is at the same time dependent on samadhi and panna development. In other words, while virtues are being fulfilled, the adhisila-sikkha process also induces samadhi and panna to grow long with the virtues. This is because one cannot achieve lokuttara sila without right view; and right view cannot be achieved without right effort and right mindfulness, and so on. This fullfilment process is described by the Buddha in other suttas, for example, SN XLVI.6: Kundliya sutta. In this Kundliya sutta, the Buddha said that the seven factors of enlightenment(sattabojjhanga) fulfill true knowledge and liberation (vijjavimutti); the four establishments of mindfulness fulfill sattabojjhanga; the three kinds of good conduct (tini sucaritani) fulfill the four establishments of mindfulness; and the restraint of the sense faculties(indriya samvara) fulfills tini sucaritani. Thus our Buddha emphasized the importance of indriya samvara sila as the first step on the path to liberation. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Bhante, Jon, and all) - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 8:44:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - > > In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : > > Take Home: > Sila => Samadhi. > Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! > Purify Morality first, and then Jhana > will spontaneously emerge... > > Never give up! > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > > Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously > remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free > from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN > IX.2, Cetana Sutta. > > Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : > > According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. > > Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> > Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing > & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) -- > > Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). > > There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in > order to become consummate in virtues. > > Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although > this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > ========================== > > With metta, > Howard > 47586 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > Howard: > The question of whether the time period pertained only to the 1st jhana > or not would still be there. I don't understand the point about a half month > (which is the way the translation goes on the Dhammasukka site of Ven. > Vilmalramsi's), because a fortnight = 2 weeks = a half month, isn't that so? Oops, yeah you are correct. I was thinking that fortnight was the first period of the night, as described in other suttas. Not a word I come across a lot. ;-) Looked on dictionary.com and found that it means 14 days, 2 weeks. So, I guess there is some validity to your argument. What brings doubt into my mind is that the Buddha would describe Sariputta's enlightenment entirely differently than Sariputta described it. (Not to mention how the Anupada Sutta describes jhanas in a manner entirely different from other suttas, commentaries, and ancient treatises). Metta, James 47587 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Jhana and Lay Disciple christine_fo... Hello Kelvin, all, Yes, it has been posted before. If you scroll right down to the bottom of the article - you will come across the source - where Bhikkhu Bodhi first posted this article in portions. Or rather - where he first sent it to Sarah to post in bite size pieces for discussion on Dhammastudygroup. Binh appears to have collated it into one article and put it up on the Buddhasasana site. > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm "Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup , 14-30 June 2004." metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi All, > > Apologies if this has been posted but I happened to run into it > and it made for interesting read. > > - kel > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Conclusions: > (1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling > enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes > either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the > texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream- entry -- > the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being > proficient in the jhânas. Though some suttas include the jhânas in > the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done > simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition > employed by the Nikâyas and need not be seen as having categorical > implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring > to the supramundane jhâna arisen within the supramundane path. > Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another > type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the > object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including > degrees of concentration short of the jhânas. > > (2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble > Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhânas. This need not > be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners > already possess jhâna before they reach stream-entry. The formula > for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually > attain the jhânas in the course of developing the path to its > culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in > recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path > and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhânas > included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the > supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still > leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must > develop the mundane jhânas in the preliminary phase of their > practice. > > (3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply > that they do not possess the jhânas as meditative attainments which > they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the > lower two levels may have jhânic attainments, the latter are not > declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. > > (4) Several non-returners in the Nikâyas claim to possess all four > jhânas, and according to the Mahâmâluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at > least the first jhâna is part of the practice leading to the > eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that > stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non- > returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first > jhâna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their > status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, > generally will not strive to attain the jhânas. Instead, they settle > for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within > a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial > worlds. > > (5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the > main obstacles to jhânic attainment, they should face no major > problems in entering the jhânas. The non-returner is similar to the > ordinary jhâna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form > realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free > from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the > sensuous realm. > > (6) Although in the Nikâyas the tie between the two attainments -- > the jhânas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an > open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several > suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning > the jhânas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who > gains all four jhânas with one who practises more austere types of > meditation that do not typically lead to the jhânas. 47588 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 3:27:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: What brings doubt into my mind is that the Buddha would describe Sariputta's enlightenment entirely differently than Sariputta described it. (Not to mention how the Anupada Sutta describes jhanas in a manner entirely different from other suttas, commentaries, and ancient treatises). ====================== Yes. I agree that this issue is problematical. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47589 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/12/05 3:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard {Ven. Samahita and all} - > Howard: I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. > In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there > would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. > I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understanding "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) > Tep: Your reasoning is almost solid, Howard. So it seems clear that the flow diagram is not sufficient. Your reasoning goes: if there were no other required activities (such as samadhi and anupassana) other than purification of virtues, then monks who had perfect sila would automatically become arahants. The missing characteristic in the sequential flow diagram was the action of the non-linear process of fulfillment. The flow however only indicates that it only moves forward. Once the monk is purified in sila, he is automatically remorseful. Once he is remorseful, he automatically joyful, etc. This is how it works. The process of "fulfilling" virtues is not isolated: it is at the same time dependent on samadhi and panna development. In other words, while virtues are being fulfilled, the adhisila-sikkha process also induces samadhi and panna to grow long with the virtues. This is because one cannot achieve lokuttara sila without right view; and right view cannot be achieved without right effort and right mindfulness, and so on. This fullfilment process is described by the Buddha in other suttas, for example, SN XLVI.6: Kundliya sutta. In this Kundliya sutta, the Buddha said that the seven factors of enlightenment(sattabojjhanga) fulfill true knowledge and liberation (vijjavimutti); the four establishments of mindfulness fulfill sattabojjhanga; the three kinds of good conduct (tini sucaritani) fulfill the four establishments of mindfulness; and the restraint of the sense faculties(indriya samvara) fulfills tini sucaritani. Thus our Buddha emphasized the importance of indriya samvara sila as the first step on the path to liberation. Kind regards, Tep /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47590 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:54am Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] ksheri3 Hi Kelvin, I am not clever, as a student of buddhism you are running away from the most basic of truths: IGNORANCE. Just because you are ignorant at the moment does not mean that at the next moment you may see rationale. In your case you study the belief structure from the point of view of the traditionalist and there's nothing wrong with that. I study from the Vajrayana (tantric buddhism) perspective which is a blend of Indian tantraism and Mahayana buddhism. May Tara be kind to us all. keep trying and follow your way. If you recognize things I speak of then I'm glad I could help but if you don't then I don't see how this can mean that are wrong in your study! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep and Colette, > > > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much > > She must be too clever for me since I haven't been able to figure > out her posts. My background is limited to Theravada Buddhism in > order to understand most of the references easily. > > - kel 47591 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:11am Subject: Airborne: Death from Above? ksheri3 Hi Evan, butting in? I think not! This is a forum, the more points of view then maybe there's a chance for the most enlightenment. Maybe it's that kind of attitude, where you believe yourself to be intruding on another's debate, discussion, etc, that is the downfall of the USA since you are shying away from the fray, pulling away, excluding yourself, you're not actively participating in the debate, which is a very prominent characteristic of Generation X here in the states. They are consumed with their Self. It is as though they glorify the ego and place it as a bauble or trinket which is to be insured for loss, theft, or damage. <...> Personally, Evan, I think your statement has done both Nina and myself great value since now we won't get in eachother's face over tiny little differences. Your opinion is directly to the point and a welcomed statement. Glad to have you around this insane assylum! CAre to go watch ice melt or maybe grass grow? LOL toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Here I go again butting in. > > > ------- <...> > Let me see if I can elaborate on this issue a little more... > > What is wholesome? That which steers one towards liberation. > > What is unwholesome? That which steers one away from liberation. > > Therefore, one can go around killing living beings or lying to other > beings in order to hurt them, or taking what is not theirs, however, the > mind states which enable one to take part in that sort of behaviour are > the mind states that hinder one's development on the path. You can call > them kusala/akusala, wholesome/unwholesome, good/evil, etc but when it > comes down to it the outcome is whether they lead to liberation or to > more delusion. <...> 47592 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Hi Evan, again, You've got some good perspectives! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Sorry for Butting in here but I can't help myself. > > > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different > from the > > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating > understanding and > > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. > > colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our > behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than > consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, > similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with > either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past > and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, > nothing, no meanings whatsoever. > > ******************************** > Well, it also has to be realised that there are different focuses. > Science does what it does for various reasons such as monetary gain, > pure intellectual pursuit (ie solve this problem purely because it's > there), etc. None of the aims of science is to liberate the mind. The > Dhamma as expounded perfectly by the Lord Buddha, however, has only > liberation as the aim. Certainly there will be overlap, I don't expect > any aspect of the dhamma to contradict scientific investigation but > science cannot cover all that the dhamma teaches and the dhamma does not > concern itself with questions whose answers are not conducive to the > attainment of the liberation of mind. colette: SOMEBODY HIT THE BRAKES! This is an accepted fact but isn't ignorance an accepted fact and the search for enlightenment, now where does one begin in this search? I meana does it come when the IRS says that you've reached a certain income bracket and therefore must persue the quest for the Holy Grail as a Monty Python character or does it say pursue enlightenment as a limp pc. of pasta. I mean if ignorance is an accepted maxim then why would there be a need to argue if it wasn't for the ego which people seem to deny because they dellusion that money talks. BEware, one day since I get that excuse so much from everybody, one day there will come a time when people will beg me for things and I will only be able to tell them not to interupt my conversation with money. -------------------- As for theology, it has nothing to > do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I > won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to > Buddhism or science. colette: surely you jest! Pishaw. ;)) have you ever run into a book called Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel? Now there's some kinky characters huh? out there in the mountains of Tibet they can go at it. Theology and scinece are like oil and vinegar. They are both in competition for "controling the massess" i.e. crowd control. Aurgh matey's I've gotta be off. toodles, colette <....> 47593 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I truly appreciate your clear and convincing explanation of the vitakka cetasika that there is only one vitaka, inside the 1st jhana or outside it. You wrote, "In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self." -- did you mean to say : "..., but he must undestand it as non-self" ? Or, did you mean "but he does not yet understand it as non-self?" -------------------------- Nina: In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Tep: It is a little confusing here. Did you mean " the aim is to see nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa"? If you did, then should the first sentence be " In vipassana the objects are the nama and rupa appearing ..."? Words are funny. They are slippery, sometimes. I am trying to hold your words steady so that my understanding can properly work on them. --------------------------- N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. But in both cases they have to accompany pannaa, respectively pannaa of the level of samatha and pannaa of the level of vipassanaa. Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both cases. Please continue to explain. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 12-07-2005 01:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:> > > Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. > ---- > N: riight. > ------- >(snipped) > T: Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of > vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. > -------- > N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. > But in both cases they have to accompany paññaa, respectively paññaa of the level of samatha and paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. > > Nina. 47594 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Your comments are appropriate. I agree with you that the "lockstep causality" with perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. I'll be glad to hear what the Venerable thinks. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. > > With metta, > Howard > (snipped) 47595 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. lbidd2 Nina: "Through right understanding of this cetasika we come to understand that the circumstances of life or other people are not the real cause of dosa. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant sense objects and when we experience an unpleasant object, dosa is likely to arise. So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling any more to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa." Hi Nina, Can we say definitively that unpleasant feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of dosa, in the same way that pleasant or neutral feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of tanha (craving) in dependent arising? Larry 47596 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! Evan_Stamato... Colette, Ignorance to science is lack of knowledge. This is filled by investigation which is an infinite pursuit not conducive to peace but leading to frustration. Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were able to attain some of the path and fruits. Now, as to theology: I hope you haven't seen the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding because you will laugh when you read the following. Theology is derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. With Metta, Evan colette: SOMEBODY HIT THE BRAKES! This is an accepted fact but isn't ignorance an accepted fact and the search for enlightenment, now where does one begin in this search? I meana does it come when the IRS says that you've reached a certain income bracket and therefore must persue the quest for the Holy Grail as a Monty Python character or does it say pursue enlightenment as a limp pc. of pasta. I mean if ignorance is an accepted maxim then why would there be a need to argue if it wasn't for the ego which people seem to deny because they dellusion that money talks. BEware, one day since I get that excuse so much from everybody, one day there will come a time when people will beg me for things and I will only be able to tell them not to interupt my conversation with money. -------------------- As for theology, it has nothing to > do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I > won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to > Buddhism or science. colette: surely you jest! Pishaw. ;)) have you ever run into a book called Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel? Now there's some kinky characters huh? out there in the mountains of Tibet they can go at it. Theology and scinece are like oil and vinegar. They are both in competition for "controling the massess" i.e. crowd control. 47597 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard/Tep, What I think Venerable Samahita is refereing to is that if one does purify virtue, the 5 hindrances will not arise. One will easily and spontaneously be able to enter jhana. After all the jhanas are conditional. If one creates the conditions for jhanas to arise they will do so easily. My 2c worth. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 10:02 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Hi, Howard - Your comments are appropriate. I agree with you that the "lockstep causality" with perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. I'll be glad to hear what the Venerable thinks. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. > > With metta, > Howard > (snipped) 47598 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Larry: "As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling?" Nina: "There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not mindfulness of breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. I do not understand your point." Hi Nina, What is the difference between mindfulness of breath rupas and body-door consciousness of breath rupas? Larry 47599 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 8:17:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Howard/Tep, What I think Venerable Samahita is refereing to is that if one does purify virtue, the 5 hindrances will not arise. One will easily and spontaneously be able to enter jhana. After all the jhanas are conditional. If one creates the conditions for jhanas to arise they will do so easily. My 2c worth. With Metta, Evan ===================== I readily admit, even proclaim, that the calm arising from consistent, though not necessarily perfect, moral action is requisite for entering jhana. It is a *major* and *essential* condition! I'm just maintaining that it is not sufficient. There are many, many moral people in the world, and few of them are jhana adepts. Some other conditions needed are regular solitary meditation practice, exertion of right effort [Even with perfect behavior, the inclination towards akusala is present even in lesser ariyans, and so constant vigilance is required], and cultivation of mindfulness, focus, and clarity of attention during day-to-day living. There is much to do, and being "good", while essential, is not the whole story. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)