48200 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/25/05 7:06:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: I have previously written to Jon about my perception that things or objects arise as differences between what has arisen and what is arising. This is opposed to the perception that things or objects arise absolutely. Some examples of what I mean. If you take a sip from a glass of water with five tablespoons of sugar in it, it will taste sweet. If you then take a sip from a glass of water with one teaspoon of sugar in it, it will taste sour. Wait for a while, take another sip from the latter glass and it will taste sweet. ===================== Here is my phenomenalist take on this: Sipping from a glass with 5 tbsps of sugar in it, and then from a glass with one etc is a story summarizing a sequence of paramatthic events. The sweet taste, however, and the sour taste, whenever they occurred - the experiences per se - are rupas, independent of the aforementioned "story", but not independent of the paramattha dhammas underlying (and validating, if you will) that story. That being said, I agree that sweet taste and sour taste do arise on the basis of conditions, and those conditions can usefully, especially for predictive purposes, be summarized by the story you gave and your talk of differences. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48201 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? kelvin_lwin Hi, RobK ,RobM, Tep and Herman (Bhikkhu Samahita) Am I alone in thinking the answer is in his post and you went off on weird tangents. I quote: "The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action .... " "Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation is Right Effort!" He's just translating Samma Sankappa as Right Motivation so motivation would be sankappa. - kel 48202 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles for got to say look up self in the dictionary. In websters: It is defined as "Your consciousness of your own identity or a person considered as a unique individual must go ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 24 July, 2005 01:31 Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Charles, No, I can't say I agree on this. The khanhas as impermanent aggregates which rise and fall conditionally are operate in the same way today as they did in the Buddha's time therefore there is no need for a redefinition of a self (or not-self). With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Sunday, 24 July 2005 1:23 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi all, The Definition of self today is not the same as the definition of self during the Buddha's day; do we agree on this? CharlesD 48203 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi In the Buddha's day the self was the eternal, unchanging essence of a being. Today, no one defines the self that way. In fact, even Hindus have dropped the part of the self being unchanging. So in keeping with the times -- the self to the Buddha is not the self of today. Now, if you consider the self the "khanhas" then you are right but the Buddha did not call them the self. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos Hi Charles, No, I can't say I agree on this. The khanhas as impermanent aggregates which rise and fall conditionally are operate in the same way today as they did in the Buddha's time therefore there is no need for a redefinition of a self (or not-self). Evan -----Original Message----- Hi all, The Definition of self today is not the same as the definition of self during the Buddha's day; do we agree on this? CharlesD 48204 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 7/25/05 8:10:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: Howard, I don't see the necessity of akusala like aversion arising to gain understanding of dhammas. As I stated it's really the above 4 things I'm thinking about and not just concentration for the sake of it. =========================== The deep-seated tendency for aversion to arise in reaction to unpleasant experiences is part of what we need to see and let go of. That tendency IS THERE! Avoiding unpleasant experiences doesn't play a role in uprooting that tendency. It is perfectly fine to avoid distractions to cultivation of the mind, especially when sitting for the purpose of calming the mind. I have no argument with that. My only point was to caution against attempting to avoid all unpleasant experience, as if that were a good Dhamma practice. Even when attaining jhanas, when one "comes out" of the jhana there is great regret - even sorrow, and it is very important to note well that aversion, if possible, to see its conditioned nature, and to let that aversion go. In general, there should not be avoidance of unpleasant experience, but avoidance of aversive reaction to such experience, or relinquishment of the aversion if it has already arisen. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48205 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Charles, I don't want to get too bogged down on semantics. I think that we would both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that there is no permanent core or "self" within that. Now, whether we define "self" to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existant permanent "core" or "essence", it's just a label. We could agree for instance that "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which doesn't exist and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary will only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not appropriate to this discussion. With Metta, Evan 48206 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:15pm Subject: Re: A flash of my self egberdina Hi Evan and Charles and all, The discussion about "self" has been very useful for me. It has clarified a lot of things. There remains one question for me. A sotapanna is said to be someone who, amongst others, has abandoned self-view. Which self-view is that? The view that there is no absolute self, or the view that there is absolutely no self? My money is on the first one. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > I don't want to get too bogged down on semantics. I think that we would > both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that there is > no permanent core or "self" within that. Now, whether we define "self" > to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existant permanent > "core" or "essence", it's just a label. We could agree for instance that > "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which doesn't exist > and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. > The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand > the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary will > only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not > appropriate to this discussion. > > With Metta, > > Evan > 48207 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Herman, From what I understand, a sotapanna has abandoned the following with regards to self: This is mine This I am This is my self because looking at self rightly one consideres: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. So if you look at the last one, "this is my self" one should consider, "this is not my self". I take this to mean that one does not see a self in anything. Seeing no self in anything, one does not see a self in the khandhas. Therefore the answer to your question is both. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Egbert Sent: Tuesday, 26 July 2005 11:16 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan and Charles and all, The discussion about "self" has been very useful for me. It has clarified a lot of things. There remains one question for me. A sotapanna is said to be someone who, amongst others, has abandoned self-view. Which self-view is that? The view that there is no absolute self, or the view that there is absolutely no self? My money is on the first one. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > I don't want to get too bogged down on semantics. I think that we > would both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that > there is no permanent core or "self" within that. Now, whether we define "self" > to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existant permanent > "core" or "essence", it's just a label. We could agree for instance > that "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which > doesn't exist and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. > The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand > the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary > will only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not > appropriate to this discussion. > > With Metta, > > Evan 48208 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:07pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi Howard, Thanks for your comments. > > In a message dated 7/25/05 7:06:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > I have previously written to Jon about my perception that things or > objects arise as differences between what has arisen and what is > arising. This is opposed to the perception that things or objects > arise absolutely. > > Some examples of what I mean. If you take a sip from a glass of water > with five tablespoons of sugar in it, it will taste sweet. If you then > take a sip from a glass of water with one teaspoon of sugar in it, it > will taste sour. Wait for a while, take another sip from the latter > glass and it will taste sweet. > ===================== > Here is my phenomenalist take on this: Sipping from a glass with 5 tbsps > of sugar in it, and then from a glass with one etc is a story summarizing a > sequence of paramatthic events. The sweet taste, however, and the sour taste, > whenever they occurred - the experiences per se - are rupas, independent of the > aforementioned "story", but not independent of the paramattha dhammas > underlying (and validating, if you will) that story. > That being said, I agree that sweet taste and sour taste do arise on the > basis of conditions, and those conditions can usefully, especially for > predictive purposes, be summarized by the story you gave and your talk of differences. > In the light of the above, how would you view the following? Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is known to lack them. In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether something is completely absent. Kind Regards Herman 48209 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:13pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: >> RobertK : "However I do not see any problems with the explanations of > sankhara and am puzzled why you think a word should have the same > meaning whatever the context is." > > Tep: But you have not given me a wise explanation yet. Please try > again, using whatever context you deem appropiate to support your > answers to the following questions: > > -- When and why is sankhara the same as sankhata ? > -- Is sankhara khandha same as sankhara? > -- Why do feeling and perception define citta-sankhara? Why are the > other 50 cetasika not qualified as citta-sankhara? > > ------------------------------------ Dear Tep, This post by Nina answers your first question: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44382 They refer to the same dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, but there is a slight difference in meaning that is emphasized. Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that arise because of conditions. As Kh Sujin explained in "Survey to Paramattha Dhammas", people could misunderstand this and believe that the dhammas that arise because of conditions continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that sa.nkhaara dhammas are also sa.nkhaata dhammas, dhammas which have been conditioned (Thai: prung teng lew). Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must fall away. Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma which depends on other dhammas that condiiton its arisieing. Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from being condiitoned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. This old post by sarah answers your second question. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20064 > These are not easy questions. Let me start with this quote from Sammohavinodani, comm to Dhammasangani, PTS trnsl, Class. of the Structure of Conditions 681: "Firstly, with the formation of merit of the sense sphere as condition (there arise) the sixteen (kinds of resultant consciousness, namely,) the five profitable resultant beginning with eye-consciousnes, and in respect of mind consciousness, one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant; accordingly as it is said: "Due to profitable kamma of the sense- sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness arises' (Dhs 431........" So what is meant by `the formation of merit' here? 645: "Herein, because "it purifies (p.naati) the one who performs it, and it perfects (puureti) his inclination, and it produces an honourable (pujja) state", it is merit (pu~n~na). Because "it forms result and the kind of materiality due to kamma performed",(cf Vis 538)it is "formation" (abhisa"nkhara).... ..... In other words, as I understand, when we read in Dependent Origination about "with ignorance as condition, formations ", it is abhisankhara that are being referred to, i.e. cetana cetaskika acting as kamma condition to bring results. From the Nyantiloka dictionary, under the meaning of sankhara: "1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano- s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to * (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), * (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), * (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere." ***** I'd also like to quote from an old post of Num's on the meaning of sankhara and abhisankhara: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m2506.html "Abhisankrara is cetana cetasika and here is the explanation. " ***** TEP: Why do feeling and perception define citta-sankhara? Why are the > other 50 cetasika not qualified as citta-sankhara? You will have to give me the complete sutta quote for this so I can look at the context. _______________ > understanding the dhamma appearing now, it is very hard to > understand DO."> > RobertK (quoting Nina above): "This is what is most important, > otherwise the true meanings of sankhara will never be known." > > Tep: How so? What are the true meanings of sankhara? > > ------------------------------------ > The true meanings are as explained by the ancients of Theravada. But they will never be clear without understanding the present moment as anatta, as elements. Without direct understanding one day you might accept the explantions, the next have doubts because it is only thinking. ____________________ Robertk 48210 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - It is a pleasure to read your wise explanation of sankhata, sankhara, and sankhara khandha in this message #48209. I really appreciate your effort in putting together the relevant background information to answer my questions. Please give me a few days to carefully study it, and I may get back to you again if there is anything unclear at that time. With appreciation and respect, Tep =========== > > > > Tep: How so? What are the true meanings of sankhara? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > The true meanings are as explained by the ancients of Theravada. But > they will never be clear without understanding the present moment as > anatta, as elements. Without direct understanding one day you might > accept the explantions, the next have doubts because it is only > thinking. > ____________________ > Robertk 48211 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:03pm Subject: Re: What is Right Effort ... ??? buddhistmedi... Hi, Kel and others - I knew that he meant sankappa, but I wanted to answer RobertK's question, using a dictionary: > What is the pali word for 'motivation'? Regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi, RobK ,RobM, Tep and Herman (Bhikkhu Samahita) > > Am I alone in thinking the answer is in his post and you went off on > weird tangents. > > I quote: > > "The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: > Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action .... " > > "Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation is > Right Effort!" > > He's just translating Samma Sankappa as Right Motivation so > motivation would be sankappa. > > - kel 48212 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some remarks on Rupa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Joop, > thank you. What I highlighted below I found especially a good remark. For some people it is a trap. > Nina. Thanks Nina Mike Nease doesn't agree with this but he said that off-list, that makes discussion difficult. I have another practical question. Some of the participants of my retreat got the idea of translating one of your books (mostly the idea was 'Abhidhamma in daily life') in dutch. Perhaps you yourself already did translating work or have other dutch texts that can be distributed? Metta Joop > op 24-07-2005 12:57 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@y...: > > > The Abhidhamma (and the Suttanta) is not a biological or > > psychological or physical textbook. Don't forget the Sutta about 'The > > silence of the Buddha': the (Abhi)Dahmma doesn't have a scientific > > aim but a soteriological one: it wants to liberate the reader.. Even > > if Abhidhamma nearly states the same as modern scientific theories: > > take care from the 'temptation' of those similarities. 48213 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:45pm Subject: What is Right Awareness ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this Fundamental Right Awareness ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. But what is Right Awareness ? The 4-fold Definition of Right Awareness: 1: The Awareness of the Body merely as a transient & compounded Form.. 2: The Awareness of Feelings just as assigned & passing emotional Responses.. 3: The Awareness of Mind only as a group of habituated & temporary Moods.. 4: The Awareness of Phenomena simply as momentary & constructed Mental States.. Right awareness is of these 4, while being alert, clearly comprehending & mindful, thereby putting away longing towards & aversion against anything in this world...!!! The Characterization of Right Awareness: Awareness of presence of wrong view & right view, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong motivation & right motivation, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong speech & right speech, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong action & right action, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong livelihood & right livelihood, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong effort & right effort, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong awareness & right awareness, is Right Awareness! Awareness of presence of wrong concentration & right concentration, is Right Awareness! The Explanation of Acute Awareness & Clear Comprehension: When inhaling & exhaling long, one notices this & is fully aware of just that.. When inhaling & exhaling short, one notices this & is fully aware of just that.. One trains thus: 'I will breathe in & out clearly comprehending the entire body.' One trains thus: 'I will breathe in & out calming the breath & any bodily activity.' When walking, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is walking. When standing, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is standing. When sitting, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is sitting down. When lying down, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is lying down. Going forward one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is going forward. When returning one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is returning. When looking in front or back, one is notices, & is clearly aware of, what one is doing. When bending and stretching one notices, & clearly comprehends, what one is doing. When lifting or carrying a thing one knows, & is fully aware of, that this is one doing. When eating, drinking, chewing and savouring, one is aware of & comprehends just that. When passing excrement or urine one notes, is aware of & clearly comprehends exactly that. When falling asleep and waking up, when speaking or keeping silence, one notices, is aware of, knows & understands exactly that & clearly comprehends, that this is, what one is doing now... Continuous awareness of purpose, suitability, domain and nature of one's current behaviour! Whether mental, verbal or bodily: Such is right awareness & clear comprehension... The Function of Right Awareness & it's associates: Thus knowing right & wrong awareness as right & wrong awareness, is right view. Exchanging wrong awareness with right awareness is right effort. Right awareness has the function of observing, noticing, remembering & knowing the reality that neither any body, nor any form, nor any feeling, nor any mentality, nor any phenomena, nor any mental state is truly attractive, lasting, satisfying or even personal... All phenomena are momentary: They pass away at the moment of their occurrence! Nothing is permanent, everything is in a state of flux: Arising & ceasing, emerging & vanishing, coming and going, again & again & again & again & ever again...!!! The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, this is the only direct way to the mental purification of beings, to the overcoming of sorrow & frustration, to the elimination of pain & misery, to the acquisition of the right method, to the realization of Nibbana, that is: this establishing of these Four Foundations of Awareness...!!! Awareness is a Mountain of Advantage...!!! PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 48214 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:12pm Subject: Pali for 'motivation' bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Robert (rjkjp1) wrote: What is the pali word for 'motivation'? Sankappa meaning also intention or purpose is best shot IMHO. : - ] 48215 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is known to lack them. In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether something is completely absent. ======================== Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, and with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, what are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those things states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave arahants and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the mindstates of buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48216 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:24am Subject: Re: Pali for 'motivation' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friend Robert (rjkjp1) wrote: > > What is the pali word for 'motivation'? > > Sankappa meaning also intention or purpose is best shot IMHO. > > : - ] ____________ Dear Venerable Samahita, Bhikkhu bodhi translates sankappa as intention. However I don't think either motivitaion or intention are good words to use, especially when intention is often used as the translation of cetana. Nina van Gorkom writes: In order to discern the different characteristics of realities we need right thinking, vitakka, a factor of the eightfold Path accompanying right mindfulness and right understanding. Vitakka is different from what we in conventional language denote by `thinking". The function of vitakka of the eightfold Path, samma—sankappa or right thinking, is `touching' the nama or rupa which appears so that right understanding can know it as it is. When nama is the object of mindfulness, vitakka "touches" that object, so that there can be right understanding of it as only a nãma, not self. When rupa is the object of mindfulness, vitakka "touches' that object, so that right understanding can know it as it is.""endquote Robert 48217 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: What is Right Awareness ... ??? /Linking to sampajanna buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita - According to your post, 'right awareness' is samma-sati. I'd like to relate sati and samma-sati to clear comprehension (sampajanna) as follows. Is sampajanna only associated with samma-sati? Or, is sampajanna always associated with any sati ? Can sampajanna arise alone without sati ? When we lose sati, is sampajanna also lost? Is the opposite true? Thank you for the post "Right Awareness". With great appreciation, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > What is this Fundamental Right Awareness ? > The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: > Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right > Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. > But what is Right Awareness ? > > The 4-fold Definition of Right Awareness: > 1: The Awareness of the Body merely as a transient & compounded Form.. > 2: The Awareness of Feelings just as assigned & passing emotional Responses.. > 3: The Awareness of Mind only as a group of habituated & temporary Moods.. > 4: The Awareness of Phenomena simply as momentary & constructed Mental States.. > Right awareness is of these 4, while being alert, clearly comprehending & mindful, > thereby putting away longing towards & aversion against anything in this world...!!! > > The Characterization of Right Awareness: > Awareness of presence of wrong view & right view, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong motivation & right motivation, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong speech & right speech, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong action & right action, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong livelihood & right livelihood, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong effort & right effort, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong awareness & right awareness, is Right Awareness! > Awareness of presence of wrong concentration & right concentration, is Right Awareness! > > The Explanation of Acute Awareness & Clear Comprehension: > When inhaling & exhaling long, one notices this & is fully aware of just that.. > When inhaling & exhaling short, one notices this & is fully aware of just that.. > One trains thus: 'I will breathe in & out clearly comprehending the entire body.' > One trains thus: 'I will breathe in & out calming the breath & any bodily activity.' > When walking, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is walking. > When standing, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is standing. > When sitting, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is sitting down. > When lying down, one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is lying down. > Going forward one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is going forward. > When returning one notices, is aware of & clearly comprehends, that one is returning. > When looking in front or back, one is notices, & is clearly aware of, what one is doing. > When bending and stretching one notices, & clearly comprehends, what one is doing. > When lifting or carrying a thing one knows, & is fully aware of, that this is one doing. > When eating, drinking, chewing and savouring, one is aware of & comprehends just that. > When passing excrement or urine one notes, is aware of & clearly comprehends exactly that. > When falling asleep and waking up, when speaking or keeping silence, one notices, is aware of, > knows & understands exactly that & clearly comprehends, that this is, what one is doing now... > Continuous awareness of purpose, suitability, domain and nature of one's current behaviour! > Whether mental, verbal or bodily: Such is right awareness & clear comprehension... > > The Function of Right Awareness & it's associates: > Thus knowing right & wrong awareness as right & wrong awareness, is right view. > Exchanging wrong awareness with right awareness is right effort. > Right awareness has the function of observing, noticing, remembering & knowing > the reality that neither any body, nor any form, nor any feeling, nor any mentality, > nor any phenomena, nor any mental state is truly attractive, lasting, satisfying or > even personal... All phenomena are momentary: They pass away at the moment of their > occurrence! Nothing is permanent, everything is in a state of flux: Arising & ceasing, > emerging & vanishing, coming and going, again & again & again & again & ever again...!!! > > The Blessed Buddha once said: > Friends, this is the only direct way to the mental purification of beings, > to the overcoming of sorrow & frustration, to the elimination of pain & misery, > to the acquisition of the right method, to the realization of Nibbana, that is: > this establishing of these Four Foundations of Awareness...!!! > > Awareness is a Mountain of Advantage...!!! > > > PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then > will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 48218 From: nina Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:04am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 174, 175 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 174, Kukkucca, regret. Intro: Kukkucca does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. It is affected by the dosa it accompanies. Repentance is generally considered a virtue, but the reality of kukkucca is not wholesome, it arises with dosa-muula-citta. Kukkucca which "regrets" the commission of evil and the omission of kusala is different from wholesome thinking about the disadvantages of akusala and the value of kusala. Kukkucca is also translated as worry, but worry as it is used in conventional sense may be thinking with aversion about an unpleasant object without there being kukkucca. -------- Text Vis.: . (xlviii) The vile (kucchita) that is done (kata) is villainy (kukata). ------- N: The P.E.D. states about ku: in disparaging sense, in compounds: bad, wrong, little. kukkucca: doing wrong, troubling about little, worry. Pe Maung Tin translates: < A contemptible act is kukata; the state of [a displeased mind, produced by making] such an act [its object] is worry (kukkucca).> The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 60) states: ------- Text Vis.: The state of that is 'worry' (kukkucca). -------- N: The Tiika states that also what is not done is the object of worry.(litterally: it is also kukata, a contemptible state.) ------ Text Vis.: It has subsequent regret as its characteristic. Its function is to sorrow about what has and what has not been done. It is manifested as remorse. -------- N: The Tiika states that the remorse arising afterwards oppresses. The (Visuddhimagga) text states that its nature is worry, because the citta is accompanied by regret about the evil that has been done and the good that has not been done. As to the expression subsequent regret, the Tiika states that this is remorse that arises afterwards and that is oppressing (vibaadhana.m). It explains that remorse is a deformed way of afterthought, because it is grieving about the evil that has been done and the good that has not been done. Thus we see that this kind of regret is akusala accompanying dosa-muulacitta. It is different from kusala citta that sees the disadvantage of akusala. -------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is what has and what has not been done. It should be regarded as slavery. -------------------------- N: It is like slavery because of the state of belonging, of being possessed. The Tiika explains that a slave belongs to someone else, and that evenso, when there is worry, one is possessed by it (ta.msama"ngii). It explains that the citta is not free to perform kusala. Or worry is like slavery because one is possessed by both regret of the akusala that has been done and the kusala that has not been done. **** Conclusion: Worry makes a person enslaved, he is possessed by it and cannot think of anything else. He has no peace of mind. It is among the hindrances which obstruct kusala. When afterthoughts are nagging someone he is not free to perform daana, siila or bhaavana. The monk may have regret with regard to the rules of the Vinaya. He may have scruples and he may even wrongly assume that he transgresses a rule or that he observes a rule, and then worry and doubt may arise because of this. We read in the Dhammasangani (Chapter IX, 1161): We read in the ŒSaariputtasutta¹, Mahaaniddesa (Khuddaka Nikaaya) that worry arises when one has committed akusala kamma through body, speech and mind, and also when one has omitted abstaining from them. It arises when the monk realizes that there is no purity of siila, no guarding of the sensedoors, not knowing moderation in food. Worry or regret arises when there is no arousing of energy, no sati sampajañña. It arises when one does not develop the factors of enlightenment: satipa.t.thaana, the four right efforts, and all the other qualities leading to enlightenment. It arises when one does not develop understanding of the four noble Truths. It is hard to eradicate regret. Even the sotaapanna may still have regret, although he has no conditions for regret on account of coarse akusala kamma which is of the intensity to produce an unhappy rebirth; he has eradicated the tendencies to such evil deeds. He does not take regret for self, but realizes it as a conditioned naama. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 491): The word conscience stands for ceto or citta, mind. This reminds us that remorse does not belong to a person. The non-returner, anaagaamii, has eradicated dosa-muulacitta and thus also regret. For him there are no more conditions to grieve about deeds done or not done. ****** Visuddhimagga, 175. Text Vis. 175: The rest are of the kind already described. So these eighteen formations should be understood to come into association with the first [unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate (30). (31) And as with the first (30), so with the second (31), the only difference, however, being promptedness and the presence of stiffness and torpor (xliii) among the inconstant. ****** N: As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 170), eighteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompany dosa-muulacitta. There are three inconstants that do not accompany each dosa-muulacitta that arises and if they do, they arise only one at a time: jealousy (issaa), avarice (macchaariya) and regret or worry (kukkucca). The second type of dosa-muulacitta is prompted, sasa.nkhaarika. Sloth and torpor which only accompany prompted cittas may accompany this type of citta, but they do not always accompany it. ***** Nina. 48219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage nilovg Hi Tep and Agrios, very good. In the context of DO cetana is sankhaara, also called abhisankhaara. Abhi: par excellence. It shows preponderance. Nina. op 25-07-2005 23:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > As you know, cetana is one of the 50 cetasika (mental factors). And so > cetana is a sankhara as you've proclaimed. But abhidhamma experts > may disagree. 48220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Kel, We may lack patience when the object is undesirable, but also when the object is desirable, as you say, when we are in a good mood. In the latter case there is lobha, thus, lack of khanti. I used to think that khanti only concerns unpleasant objects, but no, also pleasant objects. We are so impatient and want to hold on to them. As to what to do and the four right efforts, I am not inclined to think of them as separate. When there are condiitons for satipatthana the four right efforts are being developed. They can become fulfilled through satipatthana. I do not have the inclination to rationalize much about them. I do not think much about what to do in this or that case, in this or that situation. Cittas that arise are manifold, and who knows what type will arise at what moment? They are anatta. But listening and considering are the right conditions for more understanding, also when akusala arises. We cannot choose what arises, but it can be understood just a little more. One moment I cannot stand the noise, at another moment I consider the Bodhisatta's patience or there is a little more understanding of sound or citta or cetasika such as aversion. That is all that can be done. Nina. op 26-07-2005 02:08 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@...: > Generally speaking are we more patient when we're in a good > mood or agitated? 48221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some remarks on Rupa nilovg Hi Joop, it is a good idea. Long, long ago I translated some chapters of A.D.L. in Dutch and these were published in a Dutch magazine, but I lost all contact. I would have to look into old papers. The same with Buddhism in D.L., only part one I translated, but it was not even printed, just stencilled. If you like I can search and send you what I have. Your adress? Nina. op 26-07-2005 10:13 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > I have another practical question. Some of the participants of my > retreat got the idea of translating one of your books (mostly the > idea was 'Abhidhamma in daily life') in dutch. 48222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self nilovg Hi Evan, op 26-07-2005 03:24 schreef Evan Stamatopoulos op evan.stamatopoulos@...: > From what I understand, a sotapanna has abandoned the following with > regards to self: > > This is mine > This I am > This is my self ---- Nina: 1.This is mine= clinging with lobha (no wrong view) Pali: eta.m mama 2. This I am= clinging with conceitPali: Pali:esoham asmi 3. This is my self= clinging with wrong view. Pali: eso me attaa. The sotaapanna has eradicated 3, the arahat has eradicated 1 and 2, The Commentaries explain these three kinds of clinging. They have to be differentiated. sometimes we cling without wrong view, we just like pleasant sounds or flavours, there is not necessarily a view about them. See B.B. The Root of Existence (Muulapariyaayasutta p. 10, B.P.S. ) Nina. 48223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana nilovg Hi Tep, op 25-07-2005 22:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Is it true that all objects are dukkha? No exception? N: The unconditioned element, asankhata dhamma, nibbaana. This does not arise and fall away. Nina. 48224 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 0:10pm Subject: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Suttas? christine_fo... Hello all, An interesting article by Brahmâli Bhikkhu about Jhâna and Lokuttarajjhâna ... his conclusions, I think, give food for thought: "It is sometimes claimed that the Abhidhamma is simply a natural extension of the Suttas, and that its ideas flow without conflict straight out of concepts already established in the Suttas. This may be largely correct, but there is always a problem of unforeseen consequences when one elaborates on a body of texts of such fundamental importance for Buddhism as the original Suttas. I hope I have been able to show one such instance of unforeseen consequences, and an important one at that, in which the Suttas are effectively rewritten in line with later concepts and terminology.(51) It shows that one has to be careful about uncritically accepting the Commentaries' interpretations of the Suttas. This is particularly so when established Sutta concepts are redefined by the Commentaries in accordance with ideas that arose after the Suttas were composed. As for the term lokuttarajjhâna, I suggest that it was never meant to be used apart from the Abhidhamma itself. The idea of lokuttarajjhâna may very well be a reasonable description of attainments on the Buddhist path, but this does not mean that it has any direct counterpart in the Suttas: in fact it seems clear that it does not. Because lokuttarajjhâna concerns the goal of the path, and not the path itself, the Commentaries' redefinition of jhâna/samâdhi in terms of lokuttarajjhâna has the effect of shifting the reality of jhâna from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality of jhâna/samâdhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the Buddha. http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 metta, Chris 48225 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you, you gave the perfect answer. But, aren't conditioned objects dukkha even to the Arahants? For example, they still have bodily pains, discomfort, and ageing, even though the body is not (parinama-)dukkha to them because of no clinging? Warm regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 25-07-2005 22:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Is it true that all objects are dukkha? No exception? > N: The unconditioned element, asankhata dhamma, nibbaana. This does not > arise and fall away. > Nina. 48226 From: "mlnease" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some remarks on Rupa mlnease Hi Joop (and Nina), Sorry, I think you misunderstood--I DO agree, wholeheartedly. I responded to that effect off-list because I thought there was a list guideline discouraging 'me-too' posts on-list. I see there's no such guideline now, so: Me too! mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > thank you. What I highlighted below I found especially a good > remark. For some people it is a trap. > > Nina. > > Thanks Nina > Mike Nease doesn't agree with this but he said that off-list, that > makes discussion difficult. > I have another practical question. Some of the participants of my > retreat got the idea of translating one of your books (mostly the > idea was 'Abhidhamma in daily life') in dutch. Perhaps you yourself > already did translating work or have other dutch texts that can be > distributed? > > Metta > > Joop > > op 24-07-2005 12:57 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@y...: > > > > > The Abhidhamma (and the Suttanta) is not a biological or > > > psychological or physical textbook. Don't forget the Sutta > about 'The > > > silence of the Buddha': the (Abhi)Dahmma doesn't have a scientific > > > aim but a soteriological one: it wants to liberate the reader.. > Even > > > if Abhidhamma nearly states the same as modern scientific > theories: > > > take care from the 'temptation' of those similarities. 48227 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements buddhistmedi... Hello, Herman and Howard - Herman, what is not acceptable about absolute mindstates? When you contemplate the impermanence of the pancakkhandha, don't you observe the arising and dissolving of the aggregates (one at a time)? "There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' " [DN22] May I ask you how does your "scheme of things" apply to anicca- nupassana of the five aggregates? What advantages does it have over the discrete mindstates? Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising (origination) and dissolving(disappearance) of any of the five aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) purposes? Regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. > From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A > kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is > known to lack them. > > In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has > just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can > only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether > something is completely absent. > ======================== > Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, and > with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, what > are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those things > states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave arahants > and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the mindstates of > buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in > wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? > I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. > > With metta, > Howard > 48228 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Dear Nina, Thank you for the encouraging words. As you might have observed from my dialogue with RobertK lately that I am not yet confident about my understanding of the "many meanings" of this term, sankhara. By the way, how would you grade the following definition in the scale of 0 to 10 (0 = know nothing, and 10 = perfect understanding)? "Often, the term sankhara denotes anything formed and conditioned, and includes all things whatsoever in the world, i.e. all phenomena of existence." With great respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Agrios, > very good. In the context of DO cetana is sankhaara, also called > abhisankhaara. Abhi: par excellence. It shows preponderance. > Nina. > op 25-07-2005 23:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > As you know, cetana is one of the 50 cetasika (mental factors). And so cetana is a sankhara as you've proclaimed. But abhidhamma experts may disagree. 48229 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Rob M, Sorry for the delay in replying, I hope I have caught you before your next trip away. ------------------------- RM: > I feel overjoyed that we may have found enough common ground that you could write, "You may be right...". ------------------------- Thanks, Rob, I am sure you are right about a great many things. But maybe not this one. :-) ------------------------------- <. . .> RM: > I said that I sincerely wanted to find a way of bridging the gap between our perspectives. -------------------------------- In this case, a happy medium might not be possible. ----------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> RM: > > >Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! > > > ................. KH: > > I would like you to explain how any of those answers amounts > to "taking primary objects." > > ..................... RM: > If one is focusing on "the six media of sense contact" or "the five clinging aggregates" or "the four great elements", then this to me implies a purposely directed concentration (as opposed to the fourth monk who advocates choiceless awareness). ----------------------------------------------------------- I think the fourth monk simply described vipassana in his own words, and, as Nina explained, being aware of "whatever arises" is not a matter of choice or lack of choice. The other three monks also explained vipassana in their own words, and, in the final analysis, all of them said exactly the same thing. So, it's back to the drawing board, Rob. :-) We have to ascertain the perspective on reality taught by the Buddha [and elucidated by the ancient commentators]. No other perspective will do. We have to leave out all ideas of MY perspective and YOUR perspective and search, impersonally, for THE perspective. :-) Ken H 48230 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements - Twister egberdina Hi Howard, Thank you for the great questions. I find such questioning very helpful. I'll split your post in two. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. > From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A > kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is > known to lack them. > > In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has > just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can > only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether > something is completely absent. > ======================== > Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, and > with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, what > are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those things > states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave arahants > and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the mindstates of > buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in > wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? > I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. > == Recently you used a rainbow as an example. Today I'll use a tornada (twister). A twister arises due to certain conditions. Those conditions include differences in air pressure and temperature between, say, air column A, and air column B 100 metres away. In a process view, air column A and B are not "things existing in themselves", neither is the time at which a reading was taken a "thing existing in itself", neither is the air pressure or temperature reading. The weather is a constant and complex flux, complex enough to allow comparisons between it and the brain/mind. In the DSG(Dhammasanghani) and for some at dsg, air column A & B, the time at which a reading was taken, and the readings that were taken, are all discrete, absolute, realities (that for some reason all need to be known). In a process view, the twister *IS* the reaching of a local equilibrium between differences. In the DSG view, the twister is a series of absolute moments with discrete, absolute qualities. In a process view, the absence of pressure/temperature differences is nibbana (which is not a thing existing in itself). In the DSG view, nibbana is an ELEMENT???????? known by a citta???????? If a twister had conditions to reference itself, it could say "I am this twister, and not the roof that's coming up my spout" knowing all the while that neither it being a twister or knowing that it was a twister was a thing in itself. Still, it knows it's a twister and not a roof. I'll leave the quote from the Diamond Sutra, it is especially relevant here :-) Kind Regards Herman > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 48231 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness / three factors circling around right view. buddhistmedi... Hi, Kel { and Nina and Howard} - The four efforts you listed <(1) The effort to overcome already present detrimental mental states..(2) The effort to prevent future detrimental mental states from arising..(3) The effort to begin developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states..(4) The effort to maintain & perfect already arisen advantageous mental states..> are samma- vayama. Nina said, "The most important is to understand. Understanding of the events of our life should be emphasized." To develop right understanding we need three things: samma-ditthi, samma-sati and samma-vayama. ["One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view." MN 117] Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Howard and Nina, (snipped) > I don't see the situation as so difficult as you, Nina. If > there's understanding as just noise and not noisy neighbors then > either (3) or (4) is satisifed so it's good. However, if there's > mostly aversion due to the conditions and the history of such > incidents then it's difficult for understanding to arise. So the > two possibilities are to risk more akusala arising for proper > understanding to arise or to change the object. It is like pulling > my earlopes to keep awake. headphones are pretty symbolic of samatha to me. Divert the mind to more agreeable objects so that (1) can be achieved. It is not necessarily going to lead to enlightenment but it does cut the loss by ending akusala and lends itself to more of > (3). Generally speaking are we more patient when we're in a good > mood or agitated? It's the war that has to be won and not every > battle. > > Howard, I don't see the necessity of akusala like aversion arising > to gain understanding of dhammas. As I stated it's really the above > 4 things I'm thinking about and not just concentration for the sake > of it. > > - kel 48232 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 174, 175 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, What is worry about what might happen in the future? Larry 48233 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. > From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A > kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is > known to lack them. > > In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has > just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can > only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether > something is completely absent. > ======================== > Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, and > with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, what > are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those things > states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave arahants > and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the mindstates of > buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in > wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? > I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. > The DSG is a consequence of its Matika. It analyses all dhammas in terms of twenty-two triads and a hundred dyads. If the Matika was different than the DSG would have been different. The Kusala triad consists of kusala, akusala and neither ku or aku dhammas. These are analytical categories, not realities. They are arbitrary divisions with no experiential correlate. With regards to arahants and the Buddha having only kusala mindstates, I would say that would have to be an attribution from a third party, who is lost in conceptualisation. Kusala or akusala are not realities, they are categories. And so is perfection. Kind Regards Herman 48234 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for your post. I will reply tonight. Thank you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello, Herman and Howard - > > Herman, what is not acceptable about absolute mindstates? When you > contemplate the impermanence of the pancakkhandha, don't you > observe the arising and dissolving of the aggregates (one at a time)? > > "There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its > origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is > perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' " [DN22] > > May I ask you how does your "scheme of things" apply to anicca- > nupassana of the five aggregates? What advantages does it have > over the discrete mindstates? > > Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising > (origination) and dissolving(disappearance) of any of the five > aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) > purposes? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > > > In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofman@b... writes: > > Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala > mindstates. > > From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A > > kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is > > known to lack them. > > > > In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has > > just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can > > only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether > > something is completely absent. > > ======================== > > Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, > and > > with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, > what > > are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those > things > > states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave > arahants > > and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the > mindstates of > > buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in > > wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? > > I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. > > > > With metta, > > Howard 48235 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Nina, Thanks for explaining that. I obviously had the wrong idea. With Metta, Evan ---- Nina: 1.This is mine= clinging with lobha (no wrong view) Pali: eta.m mama 2. This I am= clinging with conceitPali: Pali:esoham asmi 3. This is my self= clinging with wrong view. Pali: eso me attaa. The sotaapanna has eradicated 3, the arahat has eradicated 1 and 2, The Commentaries explain these three kinds of clinging. They have to be differentiated. sometimes we cling without wrong view, we just like pleasant sounds or flavours, there is not necessarily a view about them. See B.B. The Root of Existence (Muulapariyaayasutta p. 10, B.P.S. ) Nina. 48236 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Suttas? buddhistmedi... Dear Chris {Attn. Jon, Sarah, and Nina + others}- Thank you for posting this relevant article by Brahmli Bhikkhu about commentators' extensions of the Suttas by adding new terms after the Suttas were composed. I also doubt validity of 'mundane jhana' the same way that the author doubts the term 'lokuttara jhana'. "Because lokuttarajjhana concerns the goal of the path, and > not the path itself, the Commentaries' redefinition of jhana/samadhi > in terms of lokuttarajjhana has the effect of shifting the reality > of jhana from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the > practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality > of jhana/samadhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining > which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the > Buddha." > Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > An interesting article by Brahmâli Bhikkhu about Jhâna and > Lokuttarajjhâna ... his conclusions, I think, give food for thought: > > "It is sometimes claimed that the Abhidhamma is simply a natural > extension of the Suttas, and that its ideas flow without conflict > straight out of concepts already established in the Suttas. This may > be largely correct, but there is always a problem of unforeseen > consequences when one elaborates on a body of texts of such > fundamental importance for Buddhism as the original Suttas. I hope I > have been able to show one such instance of unforeseen consequences, > and an important one at that, in which the Suttas are effectively > rewritten in line with later concepts and terminology.(51) It shows > that one has to be careful about uncritically accepting the > Commentaries' interpretations of the Suttas. This is particularly so > when established Sutta concepts are redefined by the Commentaries in > accordance with ideas that arose after the Suttas were composed. > > As for the term lokuttarajjhâna, I suggest that it was never meant > to be used apart from the Abhidhamma itself. The idea of > lokuttarajjhâna may very well be a reasonable description of > attainments on the Buddhist path, but this does not mean that it has > any direct counterpart in the Suttas: in fact it seems clear that it > does not. Because lokuttarajjhâna concerns the goal of the path, and > not the path itself, the Commentaries' redefinition of jhâna/samâdhi > in terms of lokuttarajjhâna has the effect of shifting the reality > of jhâna from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the > practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality > of jhâna/samâdhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining > which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the > Buddha. > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 > > metta, > Chris 48237 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/26/05 5:37:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising (origination) and dissolving(disappearance) of any of the five aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) purposes? ====================== By this do you mean what seem to be gaps? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48238 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > RM: > > >Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of > DSG), is one approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid > approach! > > > > ................. > > KH: > > I would like you to explain how any of those answers amounts > > to "taking primary objects." > > > ..................... > > RM: > If one is focusing on "the six media of sense contact" or "the > five clinging aggregates" or "the four great elements", then this to > me implies a purposely directed concentration (as opposed to the > fourth monk who advocates choiceless awareness). > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > I think the fourth monk simply described vipassana in his own words, > and, as Nina explained, being aware of "whatever arises" is not a > matter of choice or lack of choice. The other three monks also > explained vipassana in their own words, and, in the final analysis, > all of them said exactly the same thing. > > So, it's back to the drawing board, Rob. :-) We have to ascertain the > perspective on reality taught by the Buddha [and elucidated by the > ancient commentators]. No other perspective will do. We have to leave > out all ideas of MY perspective and YOUR perspective and search, > impersonally, for THE perspective. :-) ===== One thing is clear from this Sutta; the key is to observe the "origin and passing away" of what is taken as object. Though the Sutta only references anicca, I think that we can also agree that this would include dukkha and anatta as well. I have heard (but not found the reference) that if one fully understands any one of the three characterisitics, then one also understands the other two. In this Sutta, the monk is confused because each Arahant describes a different thing to be taken as object. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains, "In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered." In other words: - The first Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the six sense bases - The second Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the five clinging aggregates - The third Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the four great elements - The fourth Arahant attained Nibbana by recognizing anicca in whatever was the object of the moment The monk was looking for a technique to attain Nibbana and he got four replies. The four replies do not differ in terms of observing anicca, but they differ in terms of object of focus. I interpret this as saying that, based on accumulations, different objects of focus are suitable for different people, but if seen as having the characterisitic of anicca (and I assume dukkha & anatta), then they can all lead to Nibbana. Metta, Rob M :-) 48239 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Twister upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - Your process perspective described below is interesting, it reminds me much of the Chinese Buddhist perspective, and I think it has much merit to it. I also think that a discrete perspective has some merit too, reflecting that we *can* distinguish hardness, say, from a sound, but, the discreteness lends itself too easily to a pluralist realism that smacks of reification. I suspect that neither perspective is remotely close to the actual reality involved, however, and that the tilakkhana is probably the best we can really do, expressing a dynamic conditionality, until we see face to face, and not through a glass, darkly. (And then we will know, but won't be able to explain it to anyone! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/26/05 6:29:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, Thank you for the great questions. I find such questioning very helpful. I'll split your post in two. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/25/05 10:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Much is made in the Dhammasangani about kusala and akusala mindstates. > From what I can tell they are absolute states, known absolutely. A > kusala mindstate absolutely lacks any moha, lobha or dosa, and is > known to lack them. > > In "my" scheme of things, states are the difference between what has > just passed and what is just arising. In this scheme of things one can > only know whether there is more or less of anything, not whether > something is completely absent. > ======================== > Well, several thoughts occur to me with regard to kasala & akusala, and > with regard to there being no states without differences. For one thing, what > are the "things" between which there must be differences? Are those things > states? Then is there not infinite regress? Also, where does this leave arahants > and buddhas, who are said to have only kusala states? Or are the mindstates of > buddhas, then, only more or less kusala, and constantly changing in > wholesomeness? Would that not make them imperfect? > I just have questios here, Herman, no answers. > == Recently you used a rainbow as an example. Today I'll use a tornada (twister). A twister arises due to certain conditions. Those conditions include differences in air pressure and temperature between, say, air column A, and air column B 100 metres away. In a process view, air column A and B are not "things existing in themselves", neither is the time at which a reading was taken a "thing existing in itself", neither is the air pressure or temperature reading. The weather is a constant and complex flux, complex enough to allow comparisons between it and the brain/mind. In the DSG(Dhammasanghani) and for some at dsg, air column A & B, the time at which a reading was taken, and the readings that were taken, are all discrete, absolute, realities (that for some reason all need to be known). In a process view, the twister *IS* the reaching of a local equilibrium between differences. In the DSG view, the twister is a series of absolute moments with discrete, absolute qualities. In a process view, the absence of pressure/temperature differences is nibbana (which is not a thing existing in itself). In the DSG view, nibbana is an ELEMENT???????? known by a citta???????? If a twister had conditions to reference itself, it could say "I am this twister, and not the roof that's coming up my spout" knowing all the while that neither it being a twister or knowing that it was a twister was a thing in itself. Still, it knows it's a twister and not a roof. I'll leave the quote from the Diamond Sutra, it is especially relevant here :-) Kind Regards Herman /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48240 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/26/05 6:53:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: The DSG is a consequence of its Matika. It analyses all dhammas in terms of twenty-two triads and a hundred dyads. If the Matika was different than the DSG would have been different. ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, the DSG isn't a consequence of the Abhidhammic matika - it's a consequence of its owners, Sarah & Jon! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- The Kusala triad consists of kusala, akusala and neither ku or aku dhammas. These are analytical categories, not realities. They are arbitrary divisions with no experiential correlate. --------------------------------------- Howard: I assume you say this because you are thinking of gradations? --------------------------------------- With regards to arahants and the Buddha having only kusala mindstates, I would say that would have to be an attribution from a third party, who is lost in conceptualisation. Kusala or akusala are not realities, they are categories. And so is perfection. -------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know this one way or the other. Do you really know this? (I believe that metta, for example, is good, wholesome, beneficial, and with no downside. That sounds kusala to me! ;-) I suspect, though I don't know it for a fact, that those things that seem to be kusala in some ways and akusala in others are not paramattha dhammas, but mental mixtures. --------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48241 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Let me say a discrete state is defined by citta and its associated cetasika. A new state arises after the previous one passes away. Hence there are uncountable number of discrete 'mind' states within what you may call a "gap". Continuous states are the flux of mind states that connects any two given states - say the beginning state is marked as an origination of vedana, and the end state corresponds to the disappearance of that vedana. Does all this make sense? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 7/26/05 5:37:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising > (origination) and dissolving(disappearance) of any of the five > aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) > purposes? > ====================== > By this do you mean what seem to be gaps? > > With metta, > Howard 48242 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/26/05 10:41:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard - Let me say a discrete state is defined by citta and its associated cetasika. -------------------------------------- Howard: I've never developed such microscopic "sight" as to be able to detect razor sharp beginnings and endings. I suspect boundaries, if such exist at all, are fuzzy, not sharp. At any given moment, I agree that one can reasonably speak of a mindstate in the sense that there is objective content and concomitant factors, and I agree that at some point the state of mind will not be the same. But I am not persuaded of precise boundaries. I don't really buy "the packet view" or "quantum view" as regards the flow of experience. Even Abhidhamma assumes no gaps between mindstates, and from my perspective, discrete mindstates with well defined boundaries are questionable, and, esp-ecially, thinking of them as separate, self-existent realities leads to a kind of atta view. I am quite wary of viewing these notions in a literal way. ----------------------------------- A new state arises after the previous one passes away. Hence there are uncountable number of discrete 'mind' states within what you may call a "gap". ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't really call anything in particular a "gap". I used that term in trying to get a handle on what you were referring to when you said "Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising (origination) and dissolving (disappearance) of any of the five aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) purposes?" There are some well known meditation teachers, Joseph Goldstein for one, who write of gaps they notice when engaged in "insight meditation" and who seem to imply that they are glimpses into nibbana. I, however, suspect the "gaps" are simply lapses of attention! ;-) ------------------------------------ Continuous states are the flux of mind states that connects any two given states - say the beginning state is marked as an origination of vedana, and the end state corresponds to the disappearance of that vedana. Does all this make sense? ------------------------------------- Howard: I'm afraid I'm being dense here. I just don't follow you on this. ------------------------------------ Warm regards, Tep ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48243 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some remarks on Rupa jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Joop, > it is a good idea. Long, long ago I translated some chapters of A.D.L. in > Dutch and these were published in a Dutch magazine, but I lost all contact. > I would have to look into old papers. > The same with Buddhism in D.L., only part one I translated, but it was not > even printed, just stencilled. If you like I can search and send you what I > have. Your adress? > Nina. J. Romeijn Madoerastraat 29 3818 CS Amersfoort Already thanks for searching, you must have lots and lots of paperwork Metta Joop 48244 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - In message # 48242 we exchanged some thoughts on using an analytical model of citta and mental processes. Tep : > Let me say a discrete state is defined by citta and its associated > cetasika. > A new state arises after the previous one passes away. > Hence there are uncountable number of discrete 'mind' states within > what you may call a "gap". > > Continuous states are the flux of mind states > that connects any two given states - say the beginning state is >marked as an origination of vedana, and the end state corresponds > to the disappearance of that vedana. Howard: > I've never developed such microscopic "sight" as to be able to >detect razor sharp beginnings and endings. I suspect boundaries, > if such exist at all, are fuzzy, not sharp. > Even Abhidhamma assumes no gaps between mindstates, and >from my perspective, discrete mindstates with well defined boundaries >are questionable, and, esp-ecially, thinking of them as separate, self- >existent realities leads to a kind of atta view. > I don't really call anything in particular a "gap". I used that term in > trying to get a handle on what you were referring to when you said >"Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising >(origination) and dissolving (disappearance) of any of the five >aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) >purposes?" ------------------------------ Tep : Does all this make sense? > > Howard: I'm afraid I'm being dense here. I just don't follow you on this. ------------------------------- Tep: The labels 'gap' and 'boundaries' are conventional terms used by analytical people. I was curious how your modeling background might influence your view on such analytical approach. But I was not really trying to sell any idea to you. :-) Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 7/26/05 10:41:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: 48245 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for your questions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello, Herman and Howard - > > Herman, what is not acceptable about absolute mindstates? When you > contemplate the impermanence of the pancakkhandha, don't you > observe the arising and dissolving of the aggregates (one at a time)? No, I'm afraid I don't, Tep. I don't observe anything arising and dissolving one at a time. > > "There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its > origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is > perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' " [DN22] > > May I ask you how does your "scheme of things" apply to anicca- > nupassana of the five aggregates? What advantages does it have > over the discrete mindstates? > I don't observe discrete mindstates. So the first advantage of my scheme of things that comes to mind is that I am not inventing anything or trying to see things in a particular way. But what I do observe is that any perception at all relies on change. If there is no change, there is no perception. And that, for me, is anicca. There is nothing observed or observable which is not changing. Do you observe the rising and falling away of absolute mindstates (ie without reference to what was observed previously)? Kind Regards Herman > Howard, I think there are continuous states between the arising > (origination) and dissolving(disappearance) of any of the five > aggregates. Are they useful for the contemplation(anupassana) > purposes? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > 48246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 174, 175 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 27-07-2005 00:47 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > What is worry about what might happen in the future? -------- N: Thinking about a concept with akusala citta rooted in dosa. It is utterly useless, because the future has not come yet, but we still think in that way because we have accumulated this tendency. This shows us the anattaness. We would rather not worry. It is not regret, kukkucca. This regrets the past, what has been done or has not been done. The Pali kukata: badly done. Kata is past participium: what has been done. Also what has been omitted is badly done. Nina. 48247 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala egberdina Hi Howard, Thank you again for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/26/05 6:53:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > The DSG is a consequence of its Matika. It analyses all dhammas in > terms of twenty-two triads and a hundred dyads. If the Matika was > different than the DSG would have been different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, the DSG isn't a consequence of the Abhidhammic matika - it's a > consequence of its owners, Sarah & Jon! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- > :-) > > The Kusala triad consists of kusala, akusala and neither ku or aku > dhammas. These are analytical categories, not realities. They are > arbitrary divisions with no experiential correlate. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I assume you say this because you are thinking of gradations? > --------------------------------------- > Yes. And also, if mindstate X is kusala, and mindstate Y is different but also kusala, aren't the respective experiences X and Y, not kusala. What is the experience of kusalaness? == > > With regards to arahants and the Buddha having only kusala mindstates, > I would say that would have to be an attribution from a third party, > who is lost in conceptualisation. Kusala or akusala are not realities, > they are categories. And so is perfection. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know this one way or the other. Do you really know this? == This is from Nyanatiloka's dictionary from the section on kusala. "The above explanations refer to mundane (lokiya, q.v.) wholesome consciousness. Supermundane wholesome (lokuttara-kusala) states, i.e. the four paths of sanctity (s. ariyapuggala), have as results only the corresponding four fruitions; they do not constitute karma, nor do they lead to rebirth, *and this applies also to the good actions of an Arahat (Tab. I, 73-80) and his meditative states (Tab. 1, 81-89), which are all karmically inoperative (functional; s. kiriya).* I do not think that arahants operate in terms of wholesome and unwholesome. == (I > believe that metta, for example, is good, wholesome, beneficial, and with no > downside. == Isn't metta just metta? What is gained by placing it in a category with other things that aren't metta? If I am not mistaken, kusala is also defined according to it's karmic result. How a discrete mindstate can include knowledge of what the result of that mindstate will be is totally beyond me. == That sounds kusala to me! ;-) I suspect, though I don't know it for a > fact, that those things that seem to be kusala in some ways and akusala in others > are not paramattha dhammas, but mental mixtures. > --------------------------------------- > Yes, that's how I see it too. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 48248 From: "agriosinski" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Agrios, > very good. In the context of DO cetana is sankhaara, also called > abhisankhaara. Hi Nina and Tep, in the context of DO, everthing whatsoever is sankhara. nibbana is not. But we are not talking about a list of 50 cetasikas here. right? metta, Agrios 48249 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/27/05 4:13:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: The labels 'gap' and 'boundaries' are conventional terms used by analytical people. I was curious how your modeling background might influence your view on such analytical approach. But I was not really trying to sell any idea to you. :-) ====================== It would be ok with me if you *were* trying to sell me on something! ;-) As to my math background, my inclination is too great in the direction of formal model-making and is a tendency I need to resist. (A while back I nearly did a math paper on DSG attempting to model cittas! ;-) I think my tendency towards intellectual model making is a form of clinging and an attempt at "control", and I need to relinquish the attachment I have to that. In any case, when it comes to ultimate matters, I think such model making needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because it is actually a futile endeavor at best providing very shaky fingers pointing at the moon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48250 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/27/05 6:54:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, Thank you again for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/26/05 6:53:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > The DSG is a consequence of its Matika. It analyses all dhammas in > terms of twenty-two triads and a hundred dyads. If the Matika was > different than the DSG would have been different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, the DSG isn't a consequence of the Abhidhammic matika - it's a > consequence of its owners, Sarah & Jon! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- > :-) > > The Kusala triad consists of kusala, akusala and neither ku or aku > dhammas. These are analytical categories, not realities. They are > arbitrary divisions with no experiential correlate. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I assume you say this because you are thinking of gradations? > --------------------------------------- > Yes. And also, if mindstate X is kusala, and mindstate Y is different but also kusala, aren't the respective experiences X and Y, not kusala. ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't follow you. Anything that is experienced as "wholesome" is what I mean. Why might not both X and Y be wholesome? ------------------------------------ What is the experience of kusalaness? --------------------------------- Howard: I don't know - that is, I can't provide a precise definition. [Perhaps it's like quality artistic work? You know it when you (clearly) see it?] Roughly, I'd say it is "being conducive to peace and welfare". (And, of course, in that respect, we don't always know whether or not an experience is kusala.) ---------------------------------- == > > With regards to arahants and the Buddha having only kusala mindstates, > I would say that would have to be an attribution from a third party, > who is lost in conceptualisation. Kusala or akusala are not realities, > they are categories. And so is perfection. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know this one way or the other. Do you really know this? == This is from Nyanatiloka's dictionary from the section on kusala. "The above explanations refer to mundane (lokiya, q.v.) wholesome consciousness. Supermundane wholesome (lokuttara-kusala) states, i.e. the four paths of sanctity (s. ariyapuggala), have as results only the corresponding four fruitions; they do not constitute karma, nor do they lead to rebirth, *and this applies also to the good actions of an Arahat (Tab. I, 73-80) and his meditative states (Tab. 1, 81-89), which are all karmically inoperative (functional; s. kiriya).* I do not think that arahants operate in terms of wholesome and unwholesome. ------------------------------------ Howard: That's a good point! I stand corrected on that. ------------------------------------- == (I > believe that metta, for example, is good, wholesome, beneficial, and with no > downside. == Isn't metta just metta? What is gained by placing it in a category with other things that aren't metta? ------------------------------------- Howard: Why not characterize it? If we *should* not, then I suppose nothing should be characterized at all. If characterizing brings clinging or aversion with it, then that characterizing is akusala ;-), but otherwise it may just be a matter of understanding. ----------------------------------- If I am not mistaken, kusala is also defined according to it's karmic result. How a discrete mindstate can include knowledge of what the result of that mindstate will be is totally beyond me. ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, for such as you and me, I agree. For arahants and buddhas, perhaps no problem. --------------------------------- == That sounds kusala to me! ;-) I suspect, though I don't know it for a > fact, that those things that seem to be kusala in some ways and akusala in others > are not paramattha dhammas, but mental mixtures. > --------------------------------------- > Yes, that's how I see it too. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Hoorah!! :-) ------------------------------------------ Thanks and Kind Regards Herman ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48251 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Thank you for your questions. ... Dear Tep, Howard and Herman A little contribution to your discussion, although I'm not sure it will increase or decrease the fuzzyness When reading your discussion and trying to visualize what you are stating, it's something like: Is the process: _ _ _ __/ \___ / \___ / \___ etc ? ==>====================> time-dimension _ _ _ or: __/ \/ \/ \____ etc ? or: __/\___ /\___/\___ etc ? or: __/\/\/\____ etc ? (I hope my drawing is not disturbed by Yahoo) Perhaps it's not exactly what you are talking about. But the principle question is: you (and we because we can hardly do in another way) are talking about a process roughly defined as things occurring in the time-dimension. But 'time' is a pannatti (concept) and not a (ultimate) dhamma ! So when talking purely in paramattha-terms we had to avoid the time- dimension in our descriptions, and that's nearly impossible. The consequence of my supposition about the role of time in (conventional) processes is that hardly anything ultimate can be said. Metta Joop 48252 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 174, 175 and Tiika. mlnease Hi Nina, I found this interesting and helpful. The presence of unpleasant feeling is a good way to distinguish kukkucca from hiri and ottappa e.g. Very useful in my opinion-- mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:04 AM Subject: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 174, 175 and Tiika. Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 174, Kukkucca, regret. Intro: Kukkucca does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. It is affected by the dosa it accompanies. Repentance is generally considered a virtue, but the reality of kukkucca is not wholesome, it arises with dosa-muula-citta. Kukkucca which "regrets" the commission of evil and the omission of kusala is different from wholesome thinking about the disadvantages of akusala and the value of kusala. Kukkucca is also translated as worry, but worry as it is used in conventional sense may be thinking with aversion about an unpleasant object without there being kukkucca. 48253 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana mlnease Hi Tep and Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana > Thank you, you gave the perfect answer. But, aren't conditioned > objects dukkha even to the Arahants? For example, they still have > bodily pains, discomfort, and ageing, even though the body is not > (parinama-)dukkha to them because of no clinging? It seems to me that dukkha and pain are not synonymous in this context. Certainly there are many accounts of the Buddha feeling pain in the suttas, and even attending to those pains. Still I don't think it was possible for aversion to them or the desire for them to be otherwise could arise for him because both must be rooted in ignorance if only for an instant. My apologies for the lack of textual support. mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 48254 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:39am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Suttas? abhidhammika Dear Chris, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all How are you? Thank you, Chris, for forwarding Brahmâli Bhikkhu's article, a criticism of Abhidhamma and Commentaries. Whenever I saw criticisms of Abhidhamma and Commentaries, I always found the authors to be too fragile to withstand my quick scrutiny, be they professors of Buddhist Studies like David Kalupahana or some misguided monks. And, when I read Brahmâli Bhikkhu's article and began to check the Suttam sources, I could not help remembering the Buddha's teachings on Dependent-Arising of phenomena, in particular, Avijjaa paccayaa Sankhaaraa, Depending on unwiseness, actions of healthy or unhealthy nature happen. In the case of Brahmâli Bhikkhu, unfortunately, depending on his unwiseness, actions of unhealthy nature, namely, such wrong speech as accusations of Pali Commentaries, came to pass. Brahmâli Bhikkhu wrote: "As for the term lokuttarajjhâna, I suggest that it was never meant to be used apart from the Abhidhamma itself. The idea of lokuttarajjhâna may very well be a reasonable description of attainments on the Buddhist path, but this does not mean that it has any direct counterpart in the Suttas: in fact it seems clear that it does not." He was able to write the above statement either because he did not read carefully and fully the Suttams, or because he did not understand the Suttam Pali texts, or both. In "Sama.namu.n.ditka Suttam", one of the Suttas from Majjhimanikaaya he used for the purposes of criticizing Commentaries, we find the expression "Asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa" in Section 268 of this Suttam. Asekho refers to an Arahant. For more information, please see Section 111, Dasakanipaata Pali, Anguttara Nikaayo. Thus, the expression "Asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa" refers to an Arahant's sammaasamaadhi or right concentration. And Arahant's sammaasamaadhi can be described as Arahant's jhaanam as in Section 402, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo. Finally, as an Arahant is lokuttara, his jhaanam is lokuttarajhaanam. Thus, we can easily understand the expression "Asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa" as the equivalent of "lokuttarajhaanena". Brahmâli Bhikkhu accused Pali Commentaries of distortion as follows. "the Commentaries' redefinition of jhâna/samâdhi in terms of lokuttarajjhâna has the effect of shifting the reality of jhâna from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality of jhâna/samâdhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the Buddha." As soon as we discovered that "Asekhena sammaasamaadhi" is the Suttam expression of "lokuttarajhaanam" of Abhidhamma term, the above accusation made by Brahmâli Bhikkhu can easily be seen as the wrong speech made possible only by ignorance, only by misunderstanding, only by misguidedness and only by uninformedness. The above exposition of Brahmâli Bhikkhu's misreading and misunderstanding of "Sama.namu.n.ditka Suttam" has also accomplished the task of refuting his criticisms of Commentary on that Suttam later in his article. For, if Brahmâli Bhikkhu could not even read and understand a Suttam Pali text properly on his own, as I have discovered above, he had no right to even raise his voice against Standard Pali Commentaries that stand to guide serious students of Pali Tipi.taka. With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Hello all, An interesting article by Brahmâli Bhikkhu about Jhâna and Lokuttarajjhâna ... his conclusions, I think, give food for thought: http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 metta, Chris 48255 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:30am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Suttas? rjkjp1 Dear Suan, Thanks for the excellent post and explanation of asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa. Robertk dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Chris, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all > > How are you? > > > And, when I read Brahmâli Bhikkhu's article and began to check the > Suttam sources, I could not help remembering the Buddha's teachings > on Dependent-Arising of phenomena, in particular, Avijjaa paccayaa > Sankhaaraa, Depending on unwiseness, actions of healthy or unhealthy > nature happen. > > In the case of Brahmâli Bhikkhu, unfortunately, depending on his > unwiseness, actions of unhealthy nature, namely, such wrong speech > as accusations of Pali Commentaries, came to pass. > > 48256 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - I am a little confused now about observing the arising/dissolving of any one of the five khandha "with reference to what was observed previously" - as you have stated below: > Herman: > Do you observe the rising and falling away of absolute mindstates (ie > without reference to what was observed previously)? > Tep: When a painful feeling arises, I know that it is a pain and it is present. When the pain dissolves I also know it is gone. And this observation is in agreement with DN 22. > > > > "There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its > > origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is > > perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such >> its origination, such its disappearance.' " [DN22] > > Regards, Tep 48257 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - I like your time diagram and I do understand the implication of time. Yes, the time concept muddies up the ultimate reality. But putting the principles of Paramattha dhamma away for a moment, do you see that we can realistically observe the arising and dissolving phenomena of any of the five aggregates, according to DN 22? That is all that matters. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > Thank you for your questions. > ... > > Dear Tep, Howard and Herman > > A little contribution to your discussion, although I'm not sure it > will increase or decrease the fuzzyness > When reading your discussion and trying to visualize what you are > stating, it's something like: > > Is the process: > _ _ _ > __/ \___ / \___ / \___ etc ? > > ==>====================> time-dimension > _ _ _ > or: __/ \/ \/ \____ etc ? > > or: __/\___ /\___/\___ etc ? > > or: __/\/\/\____ etc ? > > (I hope my drawing is not disturbed by Yahoo) > > Perhaps it's not exactly what you are talking about. But the > principle question is: you (and we because we can hardly do in > another way) are talking about a process roughly defined as things > occurring in the time-dimension. > (snipped) > Metta > > Joop 48258 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard, Agrios, Herman, and Joop - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > (snipped) > It would be ok with me if you *were* trying to sell me on something! ;-) > As to my math background, my inclination is too great in the direction of formal model-making and is a tendency I need to resist. (A while back I nearly did a math paper on DSG attempting to model cittas! ;-) I think my tendency towards intellectual model making is a form of clinging and an attempt at "control", and I need to relinquish the attachment I have to that. In any case, when it comes to ultimate matters, I think such model making needs to be taken with a grain of salt, because it is actually a futile endeavor at best providing very shaky fingers pointing at the moon. > Tep: It is true that there is a danger when let our background (sanna) influence the Dhamma such that we may be misled to believe only in our own intellectual understanding (and created models) and, as a consequence, fail to see things(conditioned dhamma) the way they really are . Thank you all for replying to me. Sincerely, Tep ========== 48259 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:46am Subject: Hello all, I'm back (for now) lone_renunciant Hello everyone, I must inform you I have delayed responding to the latest threads by Sarah, et al largely because of differences in our attitudes that I could not work out mentally or get over. Mostly this is the idea of non-self. My position was that self-idea woujld not be gotten rid of until sotapanna stage, and that until that time, at least, we may act as a single person, performing the work that is required to reach that very stage. I could not (and still may not be able to) understand the idea of never acting with a view of self-- it was completely foreign to my experience in practise. You might see that with the last few posts I posted here some weeks ago, talking about how discipline has (at times) reappeared in my life, making me feel like I could accord my actions with the discipline of the Dhamma, like I used to to a greater or lesser degree. I have seen how I am in-disciplined these days and the reasons for it. It would only be a matter of time, since it would be in my bestg interests, to reestablish myself in the discipline. However, recently, since my CPU and power supplies have been fried, I have been spending more time meditating, rather informally, though. My breath meditation is largely stale these days, and the practise of watching the rise and fall of the abdomen is still a little foreign to me. However, I have had some good results just meditating lately, in fact, I must have been free from the hindrances, because I have had the experience of being spontaneously re-acquainted with the transcendental aspect of Buddhist meditation. This is good stuff. Somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya, it is said: "If he is himself trying to transcend the pull of the material world and to feel nonattachment toward it, then it is fitting to say he is living in accordance with the way. If he is liberated by this transcendence and nonattachment, then you can say he has found nirvana here and now." So this transcendental aspect of my meditation has reestablished itself. Simply one day I got up from my meditation session while doing transcendence, and have not been able to transcend since. Now I believe it is back, spurred on by seeing more really the true nature of reality if even only a little bit, due to some walking meditation techniques I have learned from Sayadaw U. Pandita's "In This Very Life." Whereas it used to be meditation on the breath the contemplation of the true nature of the body, it is now walking and abdominal meditation. However, I have had some difficulties with this, staying in one spot, and having the patience to sit through these 30 minute, hour, or two hour meditation sessions to see the result. It would behoove me to reflect on sensual pleasures as being inferior to the noble goal of acheiving transcendence and the bliss that lies at the path's end. Still, it does not feel quite right. But, overall, these things coming back, even though they only come at certain times, leaving me somewhat confused about what I should be doing with regular life, are good, or at least opportunities for me to do good. Also, I might add that I've on and off been practising the perfection of morality, and reading up on the other virtues that lead to enlightenment. Not to get too involved with what's been happening, but when I'm practising, I would not break it even for my life. Definitely a perfection in this sense. However, I do not know that I need them, considering how I may be liberated by one of the two previously mentioned ways, in this life, without developing all the paramis. So, that's that. I'm trying to be truthful also, and I know I shouldn't leave you all hanging as to wondering what's up with me. Expect me to be able to reply 3-4 times a week until I have my new computer hardware arrive and can then go online from home. Regards, Andrew Levin 48260 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana buddhistmedi... Hi Mike (and Nina) - It is nice to see your post again after a long pause. Mike: > It seems to me that dukkha and pain are not synonymous > in this context. I think you're right that they are not synonymous. But pain is dukkha vedana, and it is defined as dukkha by the Buddha : "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." [DN 22] Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep and Nina, > > Certainly there are many accounts of the Buddha feeling pain in the suttas, and even attending to those pains. Still I don't think it was possible for aversion to them or the desire for them to be otherwise could arise for him because both must be rooted in ignorance if only for an instant. > > My apologies for the lack of textual support. > > mike > 48261 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:03am Subject: PS to previous post lone_renunciant To Sarah, Nina, and anyone else who is concerned, during this transcendence Monday evening, all sorts of dhammas were arising and passing away on their own, things became apparent in their impermanence, and there was very little, if any, self-control or idea of being motivated by 'myself.' It was quite a nice phenomenon, I attribute its arising to establishment in morality, and slight vision in reading about the Dhamma. I want these sorts of things to happen all the time, so I can give my life to it, but unless I get some specific kind of reflection going, or a significant event occurs like excellent meditation, or when a blue moon comes up, it seems I am mired in the everyday life of a human in samsara. Perhaps I should become a lay-yogi and practise mindfulness constantly. It's just in the non-meditation times I get so caught up in the books and other aspects of life to 'go out' and start practising meditation isn't easy. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated, A.L. 48262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage nilovg Hi Agrios and Tep, BTW Tep, this concerns also the meaning you mentioned; sankhara for all condiitoned things in the world, and that is sankhara dhamma. op 27-07-2005 15:19 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > in the context of DO, everthing whatsoever is sankhara. > nibbana is not. > But we are not talking about a list of 50 cetasikas here. > right? ------ N: 50 cetasikas are sankhaarakkhandha. All conditioned dhammas are sankhara dhamma. Thus, sankhaarakkhandha is included in sankhara dhamma, but not all sankhara dhammas are sankhaarakkhandha; for example, viññaa.na is sanklhaara dhamma but not sankhaarakkhandha. It is important to get this straight first. Otherwise there will be confusion. In the DO cetana (which is kusala, akusala or arupaavacara kusala) are called sankhaara or abhisankhaara. This conditions vipaaka, explained in various way by way of different links. We have to be clear whether we speak in the context of the DO when using sankhaara for cetanaa, volition. We should be careful not to mix up the different meanings of sankhaara as they are used in different contexts. Nina. 48263 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Suttas? christine_fo... Hello Suan, I am well, and hope you are also. How lovely to see you posting on dsg :-) - I was hoping for elucidating comment when I posted the original link, and I thank you for your clarification. I will post some of your comments on E-sangha where Brahmâli Bhikkhu's post was the topic of a thread in the Theravada forum. http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/ metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Chris, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all > > How are you? > > Thank you, Chris, for forwarding Brahmâli Bhikkhu's article, a > criticism of Abhidhamma and Commentaries. > > Whenever I saw criticisms of Abhidhamma and Commentaries, I always > found the authors to be too fragile to withstand my quick scrutiny, > be they professors of Buddhist Studies like David Kalupahana or some > misguided monks. > > And, when I read Brahmâli Bhikkhu's article and began to check the > Suttam sources, I could not help remembering the Buddha's teachings > on Dependent-Arising of phenomena, in particular, Avijjaa paccayaa > Sankhaaraa, Depending on unwiseness, actions of healthy or unhealthy > nature happen. > > In the case of Brahmâli Bhikkhu, unfortunately, depending on his > unwiseness, actions of unhealthy nature, namely, such wrong speech > as accusations of Pali Commentaries, came to pass. > > Brahmâli Bhikkhu wrote: > > "As for the term lokuttarajjhâna, I suggest that it was never meant > to be used apart from the Abhidhamma itself. The idea of > lokuttarajjhâna may very well be a reasonable description of > attainments on the Buddhist path, but this does not mean that it has > any direct counterpart in the Suttas: in fact it seems clear that it > does not." > > He was able to write the above statement either because he did not > read carefully and fully the Suttams, or because he did not > understand the Suttam Pali texts, or both. > > In "Sama.namu.n.ditka Suttam", one of the Suttas from > Majjhimanikaaya he used for the purposes of criticizing > Commentaries, we find the expression "Asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa" in > Section 268 of this Suttam. > > Asekho refers to an Arahant. For more information, please see > Section 111, Dasakanipaata Pali, Anguttara Nikaayo. > > Thus, the expression "Asekhena sammaasamaadhinaa" refers to an > Arahant's sammaasamaadhi or right concentration. > > And Arahant's sammaasamaadhi can be described as Arahant's jhaanam > as in Section 402, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, > Diighanikaayo. > > Finally, as an Arahant is lokuttara, his jhaanam is lokuttarajhaanam. > > Thus, we can easily understand the expression "Asekhena > sammaasamaadhinaa" as the equivalent of "lokuttarajhaanena". > > Brahmâli Bhikkhu accused Pali Commentaries of distortion as follows. > > "the Commentaries' redefinition of jhâna/samâdhi in terms of > lokuttarajjhâna has the effect of shifting the reality > of jhâna from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the > practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality > of jhâna/samâdhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining > which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the > Buddha." > > As soon as we discovered that "Asekhena sammaasamaadhi" is the > Suttam expression of "lokuttarajhaanam" of Abhidhamma term, the > above accusation made by Brahmâli Bhikkhu can easily be seen as the > wrong speech made possible only by ignorance, only by > misunderstanding, only by misguidedness and only by uninformedness. > > The above exposition of Brahmâli Bhikkhu's misreading and > misunderstanding of "Sama.namu.n.ditka Suttam" has also accomplished > the task of refuting his criticisms of Commentary on that Suttam > later in his article. > > For, if Brahmâli Bhikkhu could not even read and understand a Suttam > Pali text properly on his own, as I have discovered above, he had no > right to even raise his voice against Standard Pali Commentaries > that stand to guide serious students of Pali Tipi.taka. > > With regards, > > Suan > > www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > Hello all, > > An interesting article by Brahmâli Bhikkhu about Jhâna and > Lokuttarajjhâna ... his conclusions, I think, give food for thought: > > > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 > > metta, > Chris 48264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana nilovg Hi Tep and Mike, Tep wrote: . But, aren't conditioned >> objects dukkha even to the Arahants? For example, they still have >> bodily pains, discomfort, and ageing, even though the body is not >> (parinama-)dukkha to them because of no clinging? ------ Mike: It seems to me that dukkha and pain are not synonymous in this context. > Certainly there are many accounts of the Buddha feeling pain in the suttas, > and even attending to those pains. Still I don't think it was possible for > aversion to them or the desire for them to be otherwise could arise for him > because both must be rooted in ignorance if only for an instant. ------- Nina adding: The deepest meaning of dukkha is unsatisfactoriness dues ot impermanence. It does not pertain to any sorrow one may feel, but it is a characteristic inherent in conditioned dhammas that are impermanent. The term unsatisfactoriness, stress or sorrow does not cover this meaning. Thus, nibbaana is not dukkha. The lokuttara citta experiences nibbana, but ariyans, arahats included, also experience conditioned dhammas, dhammas that are dukkha. They see, hear, etc. They do not experience nibbana all day. Nina. 48265 From: "agriosinski" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] >We > should be careful not to mix up the different meanings of sankhaara as they > are used in different contexts. > Nina. Hi Nina and Tep, correct me if I am wrong, but the only confusion and mix-up with the sankharas is that famous list of 50 cetasikas and nothing else. Situation of sankharas is plain and simple in suttas. Sankharakhanhda and sankhara-niddana are one and the same. All conditioned phenomena are sankhata. So there is no mix up whatsoever. The mix-up started waaaaay after Blessed One paranibanna and resulted in theory of citta-vitthi. This theory of reality has never been taught by the Blessed One. This theory resulted in creation of various "abidhammas" and in totally absent in Suttas idea of bhavangha cittas. All of the abidhammas presented various lists of cittas and cetasikas and argue that this is some higher knowledge of Dhamma. This is where confusion and mix up comes from. metta, Agrios 48266 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello all, I'm back (for now) upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/27/05 1:46:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, insomniac@... writes: Hello everyone, I must inform you I have delayed responding to the latest threads by Sarah, et al largely because of differences in our attitudes that I could not work out mentally or get over. --------------------------------------- Howard: Remember, Andrew, unless has reached some ariyan stage, attitudes and opinions are just attitudes and opinions. Don't take the opinions of others too seriously, and don't take your own too seriously. ( think that's a good policy). There's no problem differing with others, and it doesn't hurt to discuss with others. On rare occasions that process actually leads to learning something worthwhile! ;-) -------------------------------------- Mostly this is the idea of non-self. My position was that self-idea woujld not be gotten rid of until sotapanna stage, and that until that time, at least, we may act as a single person, performing the work that is required to reach that very stage. ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, certainly! So long as self-view remains, it remains. And *sense* of self lasts almost to the end! -------------------------------- I could not (and still may not be able to) understand the idea of never acting with a view of self-- it was completely foreign to my experience in practise. You might see that with the last few posts I posted here some weeks ago, talking about how discipline has (at times) reappeared in my life, making me feel like I could accord my actions with the discipline of the Dhamma, like I used to to a greater or lesser degree. I have seen how I am in-disciplined these days and the reasons for it. It would only be a matter of time, since it would be in my bestg interests, to reestablish myself in the discipline. However, recently, since my CPU and power supplies have been fried, I have been spending more time meditating, rather informally, though. My breath meditation is largely stale these days, and the practise of watching the rise and fall of the abdomen is still a little foreign to me. However, I have had some good results just meditating lately, in fact, I must have been free from the hindrances, because I have had the experience of being spontaneously re-acquainted with the transcendental aspect of Buddhist meditation. --------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes meditations seem "good", which often means "spacy", and sometimes not so good. If the hindrances are strong, then just attend to the hindrences. Whatever arises, arises - just look, and let go as possible. -------------------------------------- This is good stuff. Somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya, it is said: "If he is himself trying to transcend the pull of the material world and to feel nonattachment toward it, then it is fitting to say he is living in accordance with the way. If he is liberated by this transcendence and nonattachment, then you can say he has found nirvana here and now." So this transcendental aspect of my meditation has reestablished itself. Simply one day I got up from my meditation session while doing transcendence, and have not been able to transcend since. Now I believe it is back, spurred on by seeing more really the true nature of reality if even only a little bit, due to some walking meditation techniques I have learned from Sayadaw U. Pandita's "In This Very Life." Whereas it used to be meditation on the breath the contemplation of the true nature of the body, it is now walking and abdominal meditation. However, I have had some difficulties with this, staying in one spot, and having the patience to sit through these 30 minute, hour, or two hour meditation sessions to see the result. It would behoove me to reflect on sensual pleasures as being inferior to the noble goal of acheiving transcendence and the bliss that lies at the path's end. Still, it does not feel quite right. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I suggest soft-peddling the judging, and just keep on paying attention. ---------------------------------------- But, overall, these things coming back, even though they only come at certain times, leaving me somewhat confused about what I should be doing with regular life, are good, or at least opportunities for me to do good. Also, I might add that I've on and off been practising the perfection of morality, and reading up on the other virtues that lead to enlightenment. Not to get too involved with what's been happening, but when I'm practising, I would not break it even for my life. Definitely a perfection in this sense. --------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! (But don't mentally tighten up around the business of morality.) ------------------------------------ However, I do not know that I need them, considering how I may be liberated by one of the two previously mentioned ways, in this life, without developing all the paramis. So, that's that. I'm trying to be truthful also, and I know I shouldn't leave you all hanging as to wondering what's up with me. Expect me to be able to reply 3-4 times a week until I have my new computer hardware arrive and can then go online from home. Regards, Andrew Levin ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48267 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Agrios) - It is really nice to know that you are always around to provide needed clarifications. Nina: 50 cetasikas are sankhaarakkhandha. All conditioned dhammas are sankhara dhamma. Thus, sankhaarakkhandha is included in sankhara dhamma, but not all sankhara dhammas are sankhaarakkhandha; for example, vinnaa.na is sanklhaara dhamma but not sankhaarakkhandha. It is important to get this straight first. Otherwise there will be confusion. Tep: Let me echo what you just said (I am behaving like a talking parrot right now). Sankhara dhamma is not the same as sankharakkhandha. Sankharakkhandha, the 50 cetasika that do not include sanna and vedana, is one of the five aggregates, but all five aggregates are sankhara dhamma. Further, citta-sankhara, which is defined as sanna & vedana, is also a sankhara dhamma. Nina: In the DO cetana (which is kusala, akusala or arupaavacara kusala) are called sankhaara or abhisankhaara. This conditions vipaaka, explained in various way by way of different links. We have to be clear whether we speak in the context of the DO when using sankhaara for cetanaa, volition. We should be careful not to mix up the different meanings of sankhaara as they are used in different contexts. Tep : RobertK also cautioned me the same with regard to the contextual meaning. The different meanings of sankhara have caused a trouble for me since I have not devoted enough time to the study. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios and Tep, > BTW Tep, this concerns also the meaning you mentioned; sankhara for all condiitoned things in the world, and that is sankhara dhamma. > 48268 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana mlnease Hi Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana > Mike: > It seems to me that dukkha and pain are not synonymous >> in this context. > > I think you're right that they are not synonymous. But pain is dukkha > vedana, and it is defined as dukkha by the Buddha : > > "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is > stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & > despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; > separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is > stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." [DN 22] Yes, he does include pain in this list and of course I wouldn't argue with this. It doesn't change my original response, though. A Buddha or an Arahat can surely feel pain--this is different from the dukkha of which the third noble truth is the cessation, I think (of course parinibbaana is another cessation). mike 48269 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage buddhistmedi... Hi, Agrios (and NIna) - You wrote : > The mix-up started waaaaay after Blessed One paranibanna and resulted in theory of citta-vitthi. This theory of reality has never been > taught by the Blessed One. This theory resulted in creation > of various "abidhammas" and in totally absent in Suttas idea > of bhavangha cittas. All of the abidhammas presented various lists > of cittas and cetasikas and argue that this is some higher knowledge > of Dhamma. > This is where confusion and mix up comes from. > Tep: Your reaction to the complex and detailed information of the Abhidhamma is very understandable. It is similar to most people's reaction to the complex U.S. tax codes, but it does not mean that the tax laws are not very useful, because they are. It is true that "situation of sankharas is plain and simple in suttas" . I used to think that "all of the abidhammas presented various lists of cittas and cetasikas" are not helpful. But after the several dialogues made with Nina and Sarah and RobertK, I now appreciate the complex Abhidhamma terms and "extensions" more (although not 100%). They might not help me become a Sotapanna (I believe the suttas can), but they do help me appreciate Buddhism a lot more than before. This a power of intellectual understanding, I guess. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: >(snipped). > > Hi Nina and Tep, > > correct me if I am wrong, but the only confusion and mix-up with the sankharas is that famous list of 50 cetasikas and nothing else. > 48270 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Vism.XIV,176 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 176. (32)-(33) As regards the two rooted in delusion, firstly: [associated] with [the consciousness that is] associated with uncertainty (32) are the eleven given in the texts as such thus: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), (xlix) steadiness of consciousness, consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), delusion (xl), (l) uncertainty. The or-whatever-states are these two: agitation (xlii), attention (xxx). And these together total thirteen. 48271 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Ideal renderings + bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend robert ao: _Ideal Pali renderings IMHO:_ sati = awareness sankappa = motivation cetana = intention vitakka = directed thought vicara = sustained thinking vinnana = consciousness Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. 48272 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:05pm Subject: What is Right Concentration ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this Sublime & Profound Right Concentration ? The Noble Eightfold Way, leading to Nibbana, is simply this: Right View, Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Awareness, & Right Concentration. But what is Right Concentration ? The 4-fold Definition & Characterization of Right Concentration: Jhana! Having eliminated the 5 mental hindrances, mental defects that obstruct understanding, quite secluded from sensual desires, protected from any detrimental mental state, one enters & dwells in the 1st jhana; full of joy & pleasure born of solitude, joined with directed & sustained thought. One makes this joy & pleasure born of seclusion drench, saturate, soak, and suffuse the body, so that no part of the entire body is unperfused by this joy & pleasure! Just as a skilled bath-man puts soap powder in a copper basin & sprinkling it gradually with water, whips it until the water soaks & pervades all the soap powder, yet without dripping, so too, do the friend make the joy & pleasure born of solitude permeate & pervade the entire body. Again, friends, with the stilling of directed & sustained thought, one enters & dwells in the 2nd jhana, calmed assurance & unification of mind with joy & pleasure now born of concentration, devoid of any thought! One makes the joy & pleasure born of concentration drench, saturate, soak, and suffuse the body, so no part of the whole body is unperfused by this joy & pleasure: Just as a lake whose waters welled up from below within it itself, & it had no other sources neither by showers of rain, then this cool fount of water welling up from within would suffuse, fill, & pervade the entire lake, so do one make this joy & pleasure born of concentration infuse this entire body! Again, friends, with the fading away of joy, the friend dwells in equanimity, aware & clearly comprehending, still feeling pleasure in the body, one enters upon & remains in the 3rd jhana, regarding which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware equanimity one dwells in pleasure!' One makes the pleasure apart from of joy flood, saturate, soak, and suffuse the body, so that there is no part of one's whole body unperfused by this pleasure divested of joy. Just as in a lotus pond some lotuses are born, grow & thrive immersed under the water & the cool water soaks them from their roots to their tips, so too, do a friend make the pleasure divested of joy drench, fill, flood and pervade this entire body. Again, friends, with the leaving behind of both pleasure and pain, & with the prior disappearance of both joy & sorrow, one enters & dwells in the 4th jhana; a stilled mental state of awareness, purified by an equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure. One sits illuminating the body internally with this pure bright mind, so that there is no part of one's whole body not illuminated by this pure bright mind! Just as a man were sitting covered from the head down with a white cloth, so that no part of his whole body was uncovered by this white textile; so one sits encompassing this entire body with a pure bright radiant mind, so that there is no part of one's whole body not illuminated by this pure bright and luminous mind... No trivial worldly pleasure surpasses such sublime bliss! The Function of Right Concentration & it's associates: Knowing right & wrong concentration as right & wrong concentration, is right view. Exchanging wrong concentration with right concentration is right effort. Right concentration has the function of a drill: focusing, unifying, and penetrating! Further study of Buddhist Right Concentration (Samma-Samadhi): Root texts by the Buddha: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/jhana.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/message/6087 The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html Complete Meditation Manual on Absorption: The Path of Purification: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48273 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:58pm Subject: Right Awareness linking to clear comprehension bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep Sastri wrote: >Is sampajanna only associated with samma-sati? No also with other mental factors as attention etc! >Or, is sampajanna always associated with any sati ? IMHO: Yes! >Can sampajanna arise alone without sati ? IMHO: No! >When we lose sati, is sampajanna also lost? Is the opposite true? IMHO: Yes! Right awareness: Is primarily being fully & continually conscious of the 4 subjects: Body/form, feeling, mind/moods & phenomena and their real nature... Clear comprehension: Is primarily a continual noticing & knowing the details of the present! : - ] 48274 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Aarammana > The lokuttara citta experiences nibbana, but > ariyans, arahats included, also experience conditioned dhammas, dhammas > that > are dukkha. They see, hear, etc. They do not experience nibbana all day. Good point and clarification Nina, thanks. mike 48275 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi Tep, I am happy that you ask for clarification :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > I am a little confused now about observing the arising/dissolving of any > one of the five khandha "with reference to what was observed > previously" - as you have stated below: == What I meant was noticing change in what has arisen, rather than a totally new arising, or a total cessation of what has arisen. As in: Anguttara Nikaya III.47 Sankhata Sutta Fabricated Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible. "These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. "Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration while staying is discernible. "These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated." Alternative translation: "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) of what stays is discernible. "These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. "Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration of what stays is discernible. "These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated." > > > Herman: > > Do you observe the rising and falling away of absolute mindstates (ie > > without reference to what was observed previously)? > > > > Tep: When a painful feeling arises, I know that it is a pain and it is > present. When the pain dissolves I also know it is gone. And this > observation is in agreement with DN 22. > === You wrote "When the pain dissolves you know it is gone". This is a good example of what I meant by refering to things that have arisen previously. You do not know absolutely the absence of pain, it seems to me. What you know, is the relative absence of something that was previously there, in constantly varying degrees. I hope this helps. Kind Regards Herman > > > > > > "There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its > > > origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is > > > perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such > >> its origination, such its disappearance.' " [DN22] > > > 48276 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Rob M, After arguing with you all week about the Kimsuka Sutta, I have finally read it! Perhaps now, my mere opinions will be slightly better-informed. :-) ----------------------------- RM: > One thing is clear from this Sutta; the key is to observe the "origin and passing away" of what is taken as object. Though the Sutta only references anicca, I think that we can also agree that this would include dukkha and anatta as well. I have heard (but not found the reference) that if one fully understands any one of the three characterisitics, then one also understands the other two. -------------------------------- Yes, that has been discussed a number of times on DSG. Another topic that has been discussed, and that I can't quite remember, has been "the things people can be doing at the time of enlightenment." I seem to recall there is no limit for the early stages. For example, a woman attained Stream-entry when she noticed she had burnt the curry. Some Stream-enterers were actually committing suicide at the time. However, there are limited possibilities for the time of Arahantship. As I recall, one of those possibilities is contemplation of the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------- RM: > In this Sutta, the monk is confused because each Arahant describes a different thing to be taken as object. ----------------------------------------------- I doubt they described the particular nama or rupa that became the object of insight immediately prior to Arahant-magga-citta. (Would they even know?) I think they simply described the section of the Dhamma they happened to be contemplating when that citta occurred. The first monk asked each of them: "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?" and the Buddha explained it could be like asking four individuals to describe a Riddle tree. A Riddle tree looks different at different times of the year, and so the four descriptions could be very different. Then the Buddha said, "In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered." I think that fits with my theory. That is, they each described the particular section of Dhamma they happened to be contemplating at the (approximate) time of Magga-citta. -------------------- RM: > - The first Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the six sense bases --------------------- I would say; "The first Arahant attained Nibbana *while* focusing on the six sense bases." --------------------- RM: > - The second Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the five clinging aggregates ---------------------- Do you see the difficulty with your interpretation? How could samma- sati and samma-ditthi take the five clinging aggregates as object? "The five clinging aggregates" is a concept, and it potentially refers to every conditioned nama or rupa that ever arises (with the exception of Path consciousness). The same goes for the "six sense bases," which is a concept referring to six subtle rupas, only *one* of which can be experienced at any one time. -------------------------------------- RM: > - The third Arahant attained Nibbana by focusing on the four great elements - The fourth Arahant attained Nibbana by recognizing anicca in whatever was the object of the moment --------------------------------------- The fourth Arahant's answer was; "When a monk discerns, as it actually is, that whatever is subject to origination is all (sic) subject to cessation, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified." He must have been contemplating that particular piece of Dhamma at the time of his enlightenment. Therefore, in his experience, whenever a monk *truly understands* 'whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation,' that is when his vision is said to be well purified. ------------------------------------ RM: > The monk was looking for a technique to attain Nibbana and he got four replies. The four replies do not differ in terms of observing anicca, but they differ in terms of object of focus. ----------------------------------- I agree, but I wouldn't use the word, "technique." It gives the impression that present dhammas are unsuitable for insight and a more worthy object (nibbana) should be desired. ---------------------------------------------------------- RM: > I interpret this as saying that, based on accumulations, different objects of focus are suitable for different people, but if seen as having the characteristic of anicca (and I assume dukkha & anatta), then they can all lead to Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, so it is not a matter of technique - objects differ according to accumulations. That was the point of Nina's story about noisy neighbours and the different reactions that can occur. Ken H 48277 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta egberdina Dear Suan, Thank you for always asking people how they are :-) I am well, and I hope that you are well. I have very carefully followed the reasoning of your post, and I agree with you. Until we get to this point: > > Finally, as an Arahant is lokuttara, his jhaanam is lokuttarajhaanam. You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the source/origin of lokuttara. From my limited research, it is clear that lokuttara does not originate from the suttas. Please correct me, or you may wish to revise your assessment of people's ability to read the suttas. And if you cannot correct me, I may have to revise my assessment of your ability to read a post :-) Kind Regards Herman > > Thus, we can easily understand the expression "Asekhena > sammaasamaadhinaa" as the equivalent of "lokuttarajhaanena". > > Brahmâli Bhikkhu accused Pali Commentaries of distortion as follows. > > "the Commentaries' redefinition of jhâna/samâdhi in terms of > lokuttarajjhâna has the effect of shifting the reality > of jhâna from being a factor of the path to becoming a result of the > practice of the path. Thus the Suttas' insistence on the centrality > of jhâna/samâdhi as a path factor is undermined, an undermining > which only serves to seriously distort the timeless message of the > Buddha." > > As soon as we discovered that "Asekhena sammaasamaadhi" is the > Suttam expression of "lokuttarajhaanam" of Abhidhamma term, the > above accusation made by Brahmâli Bhikkhu can easily be seen as the > wrong speech made possible only by ignorance, only by > misunderstanding, only by misguidedness and only by uninformedness. > > The above exposition of Brahmâli Bhikkhu's misreading and > misunderstanding of "Sama.namu.n.ditka Suttam" has also accomplished > the task of refuting his criticisms of Commentary on that Suttam > later in his article. > > For, if Brahmâli Bhikkhu could not even read and understand a Suttam > Pali text properly on his own, as I have discovered above, he had no > right to even raise his voice against Standard Pali Commentaries > that stand to guide serious students of Pali Tipi.taka. > > With regards, > > Suan > > www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > Hello all, > > An interesting article by Brahmâli Bhikkhu about Jhâna and > Lokuttarajjhâna ... his conclusions, I think, give food for thought: > > > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 > > metta, > Chris 48278 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time egberdina Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > Thank you for your questions. > ... > > Dear Tep, Howard and Herman > > A little contribution to your discussion, although I'm not sure it > will increase or decrease the fuzzyness > When reading your discussion and trying to visualize what you are > stating, it's something like: > > Is the process: > _ _ _ > __/ \___ / \___ / \___ etc ? > > ==>====================> time-dimension > _ _ _ > or: __/ \/ \/ \____ etc ? > > or: __/\___ /\___/\___ etc ? > > or: __/\/\/\____ etc ? > > (I hope my drawing is not disturbed by Yahoo) > > Perhaps it's not exactly what you are talking about. But the > principle question is: you (and we because we can hardly do in > another way) are talking about a process roughly defined as things > occurring in the time-dimension. > > But 'time' is a pannatti (concept) and not a (ultimate) dhamma ! > So when talking purely in paramattha-terms we had to avoid the time- > dimension in our descriptions, and that's nearly impossible. > > The consequence of my supposition about the role of time in > (conventional) processes is that hardly anything ultimate can be > said. > I agree with you 118 %. I might even go so far as to say that the Buddha's Middle Way, between the extremes of existence and non-existence, is in stark opposition to the theory of paramattha dhammas. Kind Regards Herman 48279 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements egberdina Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard, Agrios, Herman, and Joop - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > > (snipped) > > > It would be ok with me if you *were* trying to sell me on something! ;-) > > As to my math background, my inclination is too great in the > direction of formal model-making and is a tendency I need to resist. (A > while back I nearly did a math paper on DSG attempting to model > cittas! ;-) I think my tendency towards intellectual model making is a > form of clinging and an attempt at "control", and I need to relinquish the > attachment I have to that. In any case, when it comes to ultimate > matters, I think such model making needs to be taken with a grain of > salt, because it is actually a futile endeavor at best providing very > shaky fingers pointing at the moon. > > > > Tep: It is true that there is a danger when let our background (sanna) > influence the Dhamma such that we may be misled to believe only in > our own intellectual understanding (and created models) and, as a > consequence, fail to see things(conditioned dhamma) the way they > really are . > == Do we need to say more than that all conditioned dhamma are anicca, anatta and dukkha? Kind Regards Herman 48280 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala egberdina Hi Howard, > > > > The Kusala triad consists of kusala, akusala and neither ku or aku > > dhammas. These are analytical categories, not realities. They are > > arbitrary divisions with no experiential correlate. > > --------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I assume you say this because you are thinking of gradations? > > --------------------------------------- > > > > Yes. And also, if mindstate X is kusala, and mindstate Y is different > but also kusala, aren't the respective experiences X and Y, not > kusala. > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't follow you. Anything that is experienced as "wholesome" is what I > mean. Why might not both X and Y be wholesome? > ------------------------------------ My "beef" is with regards to kusala/akusala in terms of the Dhammasangani. The DSG represents all paramattha dhammas as having their own, irreducible self-nature. So on top of dhamma X being dhamma X, it is also kusala. Can an irreducible dhamma have more than one characteristic? > > (I > > believe that metta, for example, is good, wholesome, beneficial, and > with no > > downside. > > == > Isn't metta just metta? What is gained by placing it in a category > with other things that aren't metta? > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why not characterize it? If we *should* not, then I suppose nothing > should be characterized at all. > If characterizing brings clinging or aversion with it, then that > characterizing is akusala ;-), but otherwise it may just be a matter of understanding. > ----------------------------------- == Yes, very well said. == Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 48281 From: "agriosinski" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: [...] > It is true that "situation of sankharas is plain and simple in suttas" . I > used to think that "all of the abidhammas presented various lists > of cittas and cetasikas" are not helpful. [...] Hi Tep, I wouldn't say they are not helpful. They help to understand various relations and Buddhist history and traditions. History is a good teacher. It teaches for example how to not make the same mistake twice. with lots of metta, Agrios. 48282 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mirage of Elements - Kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/27/05 8:54:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: My "beef" is with regards to kusala/akusala in terms of the Dhammasangani. The DSG represents all paramattha dhammas as having their own, irreducible self-nature. So on top of dhamma X being dhamma X, it is also kusala. Can an irreducible dhamma have more than one characteristic? ======================= Well, I suppose one could say that a given dhamma can be condition for various other dhammas. If a dhamma is never condition for unpeaceful/ignorant states, but is a condition for peaceful/insightful states, then we can say that the dhamma is kusala. My overall sense of what you are saying is that 'kusala' and 'akusala' are conventional and somewhat fuzzy terms, and I agree with you in that, at least as regards conventional thoughts, emotions, and actions. For the most part, however, there is wide agreement as to how to properly apply those terms, especially, I would think, with regard to non-composite phenomena due to their simple, uni-dimensional character. Few people consider hatred to be wholesome, and few consider genuine lovingkindness to be unwholesome. By a dhamma being irreducible, BTW, I would only mean that it is not composed of parts - it is not a mental composite of other dhammas obtained by sankharic construction, but not at all that it is an independent, self-existent reality, for it would still arise in dependence on a confluence of requisite conditions, making it empty and lacking own-being, just as its generating conditions are also anatta/sunya. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48283 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Re: Carita (and other topics from our meeting) philofillet Hi Rob > Over dinner, I mentioned carita. The topic has not been mentioned > often enough to make it into the "Useful Posts", so here is a brief > explanation: > > Carita means "nature", "character", "habitual conduct", "traits" > or "inbuilt tendencies". Carita is a predominant nature in one's > behavioral pattern. Those who had accumulated good traits are blessed > with a good mentality in this present life. It is difficult to tame > the bad minds of those had amassed bad traits in past lives. Thanks for this. I found the passage that I referred to from nanamoli Thera's "Roots of Good and Evil", a passage called "Expostioin of Prevalence" (issada kittana) which is from Atthasalini, pp267. "In some beings greed is prevalent, in others deusion, and again in others, non-greed, non-hatred, non delusion. What is it that governs this prevalence? It is the root-cause in the previous life that governs the prevalence of roots in this present life. " It goes on to explain that this prevalnce is more a mix than the one type that Caritas defines - for eample "in antohter case, at the moment of kamma-accumulation, greed and hatred are strong, and non- greed and non-hatred are weak, but non-deluison is strong and delusion weak; then in the way stated, that person will have bother greed and hatred, but he will be intelligent and have flash-like knowledge like the Elder Datta Abhaya." I think this jumble of tendencies makes sense to me rather than limiting it to one type. In any case, I would doubt that one can know one's tendency as clearly as you stated at dinner. I have a feeling about my tendencies - just as described above, with thout the flash-like knowledge but fair intellligence and intuition (thus the response to Abhidhamma, I think.) I've been thinking about this a fair bit in the week since we met. There is so much greed, so much aversion working through this fellow named Phil. I could catologue this and that which proves evidence, but there's no need to reflect on it in detail. This I think is why I want to be careful about lobha at work in my approach to Dhamma, why I am feeling more and more the value of right understanding as a pre-condition to anything of value. If I were to do anything intentional rooted in lobha and ignorance (starting where I am rather than where I want to be, to borrow Howard's words) I would just be deepening the roots of lobha and moha. Panna does not grow from roots of ignorance and greed. And what will come in the next lifetime? I am feeling more and more certain that rare moments of clear understanding are in the long run more helpful than any amount of intentional practice when the latter is likely, in my case (and I believe in the case of many others) to be rooted in greed for spiritual accomplish, desire for comfort, desire for escape from the fear of death. I used to like the phrase from St. John (I think) in the Bible: "Love knows no fear, for love drives out all fear." Now I believe that right understanding, panna, no matter how feedble, is more effective in driving out fear than love, or metta (which is wonderful and valuable when it arises) will do. Liberation through wisdom, captured nicely in this from AN 10:23: "greed can neither be abandoned by bodily acts not by speech, but it can be abandoned by wisely seeing it." I think that is what I feel so confident about these days, though the abandoning referred to here is that of the ariyan. So to refer to your analogy of the hobby swimmer, I would say yes, I want to shave .04 seconds off my lap time, because that slight increment of increased insight can accelerate, if you will. Who knows what .04 seconds will bring in the next lap! :) But there is not in fact "wanting" to develop panna, except vaguely when I write these kind of posts. I know it develops due to conditions, so I will keep reading and listening and reflecting (but no so much writing for the time being) without specific expectations. > It is true that we can harness our bad predisposition by associating > with the wise but when we are parted from the wise, we usually give > in to the bad habits accumulated from the countless past existences. Yes, exactly. But how do we know "the wise." I think there are many well-intentioned bhikkhus who prescribe practices to well- intentioned people who haven't accumulated enough understanding yet, so the result of this spending time with the wise is more lobha, lobha, lobha. Again, this is not everyone. But I think it happens a lot. > Habits strongly and rigidly conform to one's characteristics. A > person with bad habits will be mean and base in words and deeds. But the tendencies are more subtle than this. For example, I am usually very affable and people take me to be a very "nice guy." But I am aware of lurking tendencies that are akin to raping and killing and, what the heck, let's throw in pillaging too. The roots run deep, and given the right conditions we don't know what will happen. So the habits that we develop on the surface for long years are built on a foundation of sandstone that could crumble at the first contact with more powerful, deeply rooted conditions. Rob, please reply if you'd like and perhaps others would like to pick up this thread, but I'll be making a sign off for the summer and won't be able to respond. BTW, a Dhamma benafactor was kind enough to send me a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on the Mahanidana Sutta. I think you mentioned a great interest in this sutta and that you were planning to write on it. Perhaps we could make it the topic of our next discussion (over dinner at our place, hopefully :) Metta, Phil 48284 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:39pm Subject: Phil's sign-off philofillet Dear group I will be signing off for a few months, probably, to work on the oft-mentionned "other projects." I'll be listening and reading and reflecting a lot so not to worry. Herman, my friend, I earnestly encourage you to read and reflect on Samyutta Nikaya. The Buddha most certainly teaches in elemental terms and SN will dispell misunderstanding that you seem to have on that point. You needn't go to Abdhihdamma to know that. Please, please spend some time with Grandpa Sam! Metta, Phil 48285 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:54pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,176 lbidd2 nichiconn "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 176. (32)-(33) As regards the two rooted in delusion, firstly: [associated] with [the consciousness that is] associated with uncertainty (32) are the eleven given in the texts as such thus: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), (xlix) steadiness of consciousness, consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), delusion (xl), (l) uncertainty. The or-whatever-states are these two: agitation (xlii), attention (xxx). And these together total thirteen. "The Path of Purity" p.553 Of the two classes of consciousness rooted in delusion [471] there are thirteen mental activities which are united with the consciousness associated with perplexity, to wit: eleven appearing in their true nature as: - Contact Conscious Duration Volition Unconscientiousness Applied Thought Fearlessness of Blame Sustained Thought Delusion Energy Perplexity Life 48286 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > Dear Herman and Tep Answering your remarks, see below. Now I understand in what discussion I was jumping, with my eyes closed. Tep asked me "putting the principles of Paramattha dhamma away for a moment". For a real abhidhammist an impossible question; I'm not but even to me it's not the question if I should take the principles absolute or relative. To me there are three question is: - had I to understand the Abhidhamma as a science or as a soteriology (to liberate the reader) - had I to take the (Abhi)Dhamma literal or metaphorical ? - had I to take the (Abhi)Dhamma ontological or phenomenological ? My answers are: metaphorical and phenomenological, as contribution to liberate me (I know it's a sankrit and worse, a Mahayana-term: it's to me upaya, skillful means) I have studied much Abhidhamma the last weeks, special about the 'thought-processes' (Ch. 4 of BB's quide to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha) and special in relation to my meditation experiences. And I must say: when in moments of good cencentration and mindfulness, I experience the arising and falling away of phenomena. Tep, you are talking about "five aggregates", I think these five are a kind of translation of the list of dhammas of the Abhidhamma (or reverse, both are to me a model of reality, not relity itself). In this way the answer to your question is: yes. To me the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) is one of the most important; I like the book about it I read of Thich Nath Hanh. Herman, nice that you agree, even in a abhidhammistic-like exactness; but I'm more in a mild mood about the relation between Budhha's Middle Way and the theory of paramattha dhammas. Yes, it's a theory, of building blocks of experienced phenomena; and it's the best theory we have, already 2300 years. And when we understand it's not a ontological but a phenomenological theory, than there is no antithesis. One remark about 'time'. To me contemplating 'time' - and the non- existence of it - as a philosophical and abhidhammical theme, gives the spiritual emotion I need to continue dhamma-study. Because there are moments (49% of my non-sleeping time) that I think Abhidhamma is dull. Another part I think it's intellectual fascinating; and there are moments it gives me satori-like experiences. Metta Joop 48257 From Tep Hi, Joop - I like your time diagram and I do understand the implication of time. Yes, the time concept muddies up the ultimate reality. But putting the principles of Paramattha dhamma away for a moment, do you see that we can realistically observe the arising and dissolving phenomena of any of the five aggregates, according to DN 22? That is all that matters. Regards, Tep 48276 From Egbert I agree with you 118 %. I might even go so far as to say that the Buddha's Middle Way, between the extremes of existence and non-existence, is in stark opposition to the theory of paramattha dhammas. Kind Regards Herman 48287 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 / Related Suttas buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Chris) - The Kundaliya Sutta should be studied along with other suttas in the same group (Bojjhanga Samyutta) and related group, e.g. Satipatthana Samyutta. Today I would like to share some useful information I have seen in the Suttanta-pitaka with you. It is clear that Sila must be developed as the basis for successful Satipatthana bhavana. (I) Thai Siam Rath version. The Suttantapitaka # 11, Samyutta Nikaya - mahavaravagga, Bojjhanga Samyutta, page 99: Kundaliya Sutta. 1. Restraint of the sense faculties (eye, ear, ..., body, mind), when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct (bodily, verbally, mentally). 2. The three kinds of good conduct, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness. 3. The four establishments of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. 4. The seven factors of enlightenment, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation. (II) Thai Siam Rath version. The Suttantapitaka # 11, Samyutta Nikaya - Mahavaravagga, Satipatthana Samyutta, page 164. Para 687: Purification of Sila and right view are the basis for the development of the four foundations of mindfulness. [Also, see Pahiya Sutta & Uttiya Sutta, pages 181-183.] Para 689 : Whenever you depend on Sila, maintain Sila, and develop (bhavana) the four foundations of mindfulness with 3 parts (i.e. internal, external, both internal & external), then you may expect to achieve full attainment in kusala dhamma, all day and all night without deterioration. Para 767-769: All kinds of kusala that the Blessed One taught, he taught them only for the purpose of developing the four foundations of mindfulness. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nina, Tep, all, > > I have typed Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation below. I haven't had time > to proof read, as I must leave for work, but will check it over this > evening Oz time for any errors and omissions. > > Samyutta Nikaya V. The Great Book (Mahaavagga) 46. > Bojjha.ngasa.myutta 6 (6) Ku.n.daliya > 48288 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - Thank you for answering my question and beyond very well. Joop: > > I have studied much Abhidhamma the last weeks, special about > the 'thought-processes' (Ch. 4 of BB's quide to the Abhidhamattha > Sangaha) and special in relation to my meditation experiences. And I > must say: when in moments of good cencentration and mindfulness, I > experience the arising and falling away of phenomena. > > Tep, you are talking about "five aggregates", I think these five are > a kind of translation of the list of dhammas of the Abhidhamma (or > reverse, both are to me a model of reality, not relity itself). In > this way the answer to your question is: yes. > To me the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) is one of the most > important; I like the book about it I read of Thich Nath Hanh. > Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > > > Dear Herman and Tep > > Answering your remarks, see below. > Now I understand in what discussion I was jumping, with my eyes > closed. > Tep asked me "putting the principles of Paramattha dhamma away for a moment". For a real abhidhammist an impossible question; I'm not but even to me it's not the question if I should take the principles > absolute or relative. 48289 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time egberdina Hi Joop, Thanks for your comments. > Dear Herman and Tep > > Answering your remarks, see below. > Now I understand in what discussion I was jumping, with my eyes > closed. == No need to worry. I am not peddling a view :-) == > To me there are three question is: > - had I to understand the Abhidhamma as a science or as a soteriology > (to liberate the reader) > - had I to take the (Abhi)Dhamma literal or metaphorical ? > - had I to take the (Abhi)Dhamma ontological or phenomenological ? > My answers are: metaphorical and phenomenological, as contribution to > liberate me > (I know it's a sankrit and worse, a Mahayana-term: it's to me upaya, > skillful means) > I really do not know enough about the Abhidhamma to be able to distinguish between what is from the Abhidhamma, and what is from the commentaries on the Abhidhamma. And I do not think I will ever be able or willing to allocate years of my life to learn to be able to tell the difference. If I could read all the ideas that have an Abhidhamma label on them as being soteriological, metaphorical and phenomenological, you wouldn't hear a whimper from me. It just strikes me from time to time that different notions that are being raised are in fact scientific, ontological or literal. As they arise, I might run different notions by you, and see how you are able to maintain your position on them. One that comes to mind just at the moment is the notion that a rupa has the duration of 17 cittas. How is that soteriological? How is that to be taken metaphorically? How is that to be taken phenomenologically? Just reiterating, I am not trying to push my view. Kind Regards Herman 48290 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:10pm Subject: Fruits of the Noble Way... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How does the Noble 8-fold Way makes one Noble ? Having cultivated the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might enter the stream which leads to Nibbana! The Stream-Enterer (Sotapanna) is entirely freed from rebirth as Animal, Hungry Ghost, Angry Demon & Burning Hell Being! Such Noble One (Ariya) will be enlightened within maximally 7 rebirths... The Stream-Enterer has eliminated all egoism, belief in a 'person' or 'self', eradicated all 'I-making' & 'Mine-making', abolished all sceptical doubt in the perfect Self-Enlightenment of the Buddha, & removed silly superstitious belief in any benefit of empowerments and empty rituals. Such Noble have by direct momentary experience touched and tasted the deathless Nibbana and is forever hereafter independent of any Dhamma-teacher... Having cultured the Noble 8-fold Way even further, a being might attain the state of a Once-Returner (Sakadagami), who is reborn only once as human or lower god and then awakens in that next life! Such Noble have furthermore reduced sense-desire and aversion... Having yet further refined the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might attain the state of a Non-Returner (Anagami), who is reborn in the higher fine material worlds - The Pure Abodes - where they live for many universal cycles & there attain Nibbana without ever returning to the human or lower divine worlds... Such Noble have furthermore entirely eliminated sense-desire and aversion! Having fully perfected the Noble 8-fold Way one awakens as an Arahat, who is enlightened in this very life, by elimination of all remaining mental defects such as desire for fine form and formlessness, the subtle conceit that 'I am', latent tendency to restlessness and all ignorance. Such Noble One enters at the moment of death the freedom, bliss & peace of Nibbana without trace of clinging left... Further study: The Thirty-One Planes of Existence: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html The Noble Eightfold Path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48291 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta abhidhammika Dear Herman, Chris, Nina, Robert K, Mike N, Htoo and all How are you? Herman wrote: "You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the source/origin of lokuttara." Sorry, Herman, when I wrote my original post, I took the position that the term "lokuttara" could not be found in the Suttas. So I did not even bother searching it. And, I happened to assume that the people I addressed to such as Chris, Nina, Sarah, and Robert K understand an Arahant to be no longer a puthujjana, a member of the common masses. So I simply wrote that an Arahant is lokuttaram, one who transcends the world or worldliness. They know Pali. And, if you recalled, Brahmâli Bhikkhu's accusation is that lokuttarajhaanam has no direct counterpart in the Suttas. He did not ask us to look for the term "lokuttrajhaana" in the Suttas. He already knew or assumned that it could not be found. His charge was more serious because he asserted that there was no equivalent concept to lokuttrajhaanam. So, if I were to prove him wrong as I did in my post, I had to look for the counterpart expressions equivalent to lokuttrajhaanam. One of my foolproof strategies to spank misguided critics is to use their own Suttam references. So I read Sama.namu.n.dika Suttam on whose Commentary Brahmâli Bhikkhu criticized. The rest you read in my original post. Herman also wrote: "From my limited research, it is clear that lokuttara does not originate from the suttas." Thank you for your modesty in confessing your somewhat uninformedness. The following quote comes from Kosambiyasuttam, Muulapa.n.naaso, Majjhimanikaayo. "Idamassa pa.thamam ñaa.nam adhigatam hoti ariyam lokuttaram asaadhaara.nam puthujjanehi." Section 493, Kosambiyasuttam, Muulapa.n.naaso, Majjhimanikaayo. "Gaining of this first wisdom that is noble, beyond the world (lokuttaram), and unrelated with the common masses occurs to this monk." As the Buddha lists seven types of wisdom, the similar statements with different itemised numbering can also be found in Sections 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, and 499. Herman also wrote: "Please correct me, or you may wish to revise your assessment of people's ability to read the suttas. And if you cannot correct me, I may have to revise my assessment of your ability to read a post :-)" I have corrected you, :-) but I did not have to. Even if the term "lokuttaram" could not be found in the Suttas, that did not prove or disprove my ability to read a post. A particlar Pali term may or may not be found in the Suttas, but the expressions equivalent to that term are usually found there if that term is central to the Buddha's teachings. Sometimes, if a single Suttam cannot offer the exact counterpart, two or more Suttas can be collated and correlated to give a complete picture. And, that very ability to collate and correlate seemingly disparate pieces of information and ideas from different parts of Pali Tipi.taka to form a coherent view and understanding is what makes us Theravada Buddhists. Therefore, I can assure you that my assessment of Brahmâli Bhikkhu's ability to read carefully and understand properly Sama.namu.n.dika Suttam is unassailable. Herman, I do not have time to waste, so I do not write posts to attack other people for the sake of attack. But, there seem to be people, and even misguided monks, who are bent on attacking Abhidhamma Pi.tka and Aacariya Buddhaghosa and other ancient Pali commentators. So, all I do has been to write occasional rebuttal posts in my spare time when I came accross, by chance, criticisms of Abhidhamma Pi.taka and Standard Pali Commentaries. With kind regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you for always asking people how they are :-) I am well, and I hope that you are well. I have very carefully followed the reasoning of your post, and I agree with you. Until we get to this point: > > Finally, as an Arahant is lokuttara, his jhaanam is lokuttarajhaanam. You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the source/origin of lokuttara. From my limited research, it is clear that lokuttara does not originate from the suttas. Please correct me, or you may wish to revise your assessment of people's ability to read the suttas. And if you cannot correct me, I may have to revise my assessment of your ability to read a post :-) Kind Regards Herman 48292 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta egberdina Hi Suan, Thank you for taking the time to correct me. It is much appreciated. There are some things that I would like to add, that you would already know but perhaps did not think to be relevant to the matter. > > "You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while > it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the > source/origin of lokuttara." > > Sorry, Herman, when I wrote my original post, I took the position > that the term "lokuttara" could not be found in the Suttas. So I did > not even bother searching it. Well, as it turns out, lokuttara is found in the Suttas. Thank you for finding that, and quoting the source. In the Kosambiya Sutta, the third of the "beyond the world" wisdoms acquired is along these lines. "Again the noble disciple reflects. This view I have gained is it also the view of the recluses and brahmins of other sects. Then he knows, this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses and brahmins of other sects. This is the third noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary." Here the rendering of whatever form of lokuttara is "not of the world". This wisdom, knowing that you know something that folks in other sects don't, is "not of this world". The same word lokuttara is used in the Abhidhamma and later, to describe the discrete moments of path consciousness and fruition. In that context it is often rendered as supramundane. Do you consider the two usages of lokuttara to be identical? With Kind Regards Herman > > And, I happened to assume that the people I addressed to such as > Chris, Nina, Sarah, and Robert K understand an Arahant to be no > longer a puthujjana, a member of the common masses. So I simply > wrote that an Arahant is lokuttaram, one who transcends the world or > worldliness. They know Pali. > > And, if you recalled, Brahmâli Bhikkhu's accusation is that > lokuttarajhaanam has no direct counterpart in the Suttas. He did not > ask us to look for the term "lokuttrajhaana" in the Suttas. He > already knew or assumned that it could not be found. > > His charge was more serious because he asserted that there was no > equivalent concept to lokuttrajhaanam. > > So, if I were to prove him wrong as I did in my post, I had to look > for the counterpart expressions equivalent to lokuttrajhaanam. > > One of my foolproof strategies to spank misguided critics is to use > their own Suttam references. So I read Sama.namu.n.dika Suttam on > whose Commentary Brahmâli Bhikkhu criticized. The rest you read in > my original post. > > Herman also wrote: > > "From my limited research, it is clear that lokuttara does not > originate from the suttas." > > Thank you for your modesty in confessing your somewhat > uninformedness. > > The following quote comes from Kosambiyasuttam, Muulapa.n.naaso, > Majjhimanikaayo. > > "Idamassa pa.thamam ñaa.nam adhigatam hoti ariyam lokuttaram > asaadhaara.nam puthujjanehi." Section 493, Kosambiyasuttam, > Muulapa.n.naaso, Majjhimanikaayo. > > "Gaining of this first wisdom that is noble, beyond the world > (lokuttaram), and unrelated with the common masses occurs to this > monk." > > As the Buddha lists seven types of wisdom, the similar statements > with different itemised numbering can also be found in Sections 494, > 495, 496, 497, 498, and 499. > > Herman also wrote: > > "Please correct me, or you may wish to revise your assessment of > people's ability to read the suttas. And if you cannot correct me, I > may have to revise my assessment of your ability to read a post :-)" > > I have corrected you, :-) but I did not have to. > > Even if the term "lokuttaram" could not be found in the Suttas, that > did not prove or disprove my ability to read a post. > > A particlar Pali term may or may not be found in the Suttas, but the > expressions equivalent to that term are usually found there if that > term is central to the Buddha's teachings. Sometimes, if a single > Suttam cannot offer the exact counterpart, two or more Suttas can be > collated and correlated to give a complete picture. > > And, that very ability to collate and correlate seemingly disparate > pieces of information and ideas from different parts of Pali > Tipi.taka to form a coherent view and understanding is what makes us > Theravada Buddhists. > > Therefore, I can assure you that my assessment of Brahmâli Bhikkhu's > ability to read carefully and understand properly Sama.namu.n.dika > Suttam is unassailable. > > Herman, I do not have time to waste, so I do not write posts to > attack other people for the sake of attack. > > But, there seem to be people, and even misguided monks, who are bent > on attacking Abhidhamma Pi.tka and Aacariya Buddhaghosa and other > ancient Pali commentators. > > So, all I do has been to write occasional rebuttal posts in my spare > time when I came accross, by chance, criticisms of Abhidhamma > Pi.taka and Standard Pali Commentaries. > > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > Thank you for always asking people how they are :-) > > I am well, and I hope that you are well. > > I have very carefully followed the reasoning of your post, and I > agree > with you. Until we get to this point: > > > > > Finally, as an Arahant is lokuttara, his jhaanam is > lokuttarajhaanam. > > You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while > it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the > source/origin of lokuttara. > > From my limited research, it is clear that lokuttara does not > originate from the suttas. > > Please correct me, or you may wish to revise your assessment of > people's ability to read the suttas. And if you cannot correct me, I > may have to revise my assessment of your ability to read a post :-) > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 48293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - is it just 50 cetasikas alone?/ Tep's Mirage nilovg Hi Tep, appreciating your posts, also the one on Abhidhamma. Just one point, the term citta-sankhara, which is defined as sanna & vedana, this term I am not familiar with. They are a khandha each and indeed, all of them are sankhara dhammas. Nina. op 27-07-2005 23:14 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Further, citta-sankhara, which is defined as sanna > & vedana, is also a sankhara dhamma. 48294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. nilovg Hi Agrios, op 27-07-2005 21:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > The mix-up started waaaaay after Blessed One paranibanna and resulted > in theory of citta-vitthi. This theory of reality has never been > taught by the Blessed One. This theory resulted in creation > of various "abidhammas" and in totally absent in Suttas idea > of bhavangha cittas. All of the abidhammas presented various lists > of cittas and cetasikas and argue that this is some higher knowledge > of Dhamma. > This is where confusion and mix up comes from. ------- N: As Connie recently said (in the context of the Discriminations), you do not have to believe anything. Study what you are inclined to study, like the suttas. I think it very important that everyone enjoys his study. It is best for each individual to find out what is most beneficial for him. Phil recommended to Herman the Kindred Sayings, and I think especially in Kindred Sayings on Sense (IV) you find that it is like the Abhidhamma. But one should find out in the course of the study whether Abhidhamma is Dhamma, whether it is true that the Abhidhamma is not different from the Sutta teaching. One can find out whether the Abhidhamma brings light in darkness, whether it creates order in the chaotic condition of our mind. I am now reflecting on doubt that is coming up next with the Visuddhimagga study. I like to think of the sotapanna who has eradicated doubt and has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem as you can read in the suttas. There is so much connection here. When a person always doubts he has no confidence in the Dhamma. Reflecting on all such points helps me to see to what extent the teachings pertain to daily life. And I always learn something new, it is always fresh. It is the same with the Commentaries. I feel no need to defend them, but I think when reading them a person can see for himself whether they are helpful. I am reading the Co to the Kundaliyasutta and I am just enjoying the extra details the commentary gives. Thus again, our study should be study with enjoyment, not in order to prove anything or defend anything. Nina. 48295 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Thanks for your comments. Hallo Herman Have you ever read 'The mystique of the Abhidhamma' by Bhikkhu Sujata, australian and funny ? (www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/) Herman: "One that comes to mind just at the moment is the notion that a rupa has the duration of 17 cittas. How is that soteriological? How is that to be taken metaphorically? How is that to be taken phenomenologically?" Joop; I think phenomenologically but I'm too lazy for really trying to write that down. I know not all DSG-participants and moderators agree with my opinion. In fact that only is a kind of 'reduction of cognitive dissonance' (a term I learned long time ago in colleges on social science): a big part of Abhidhamma is either nonsense or meant not-ontologic, not-literal and not-scientific. And my buddhistic intuition is saying me that not nonsense. If you can not use Abhidhamma in this stadium of your live: read something else, for example suttas. So simple is reality. Metta Joop 48296 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Seclusion Week ( Htoo is away - 22.07.05) htootintnaing Seclusion Week Seculsio O! calmness, done that ever Delusio O! damn-black, come back never. Goodbye that black, alert the master aware Hood-ties that black, smart the master dare. Stocking up wisery, lorry coundn't help Docking at library, worry coundn't snare. Energo to store, week will be bare Enhearto to grow, week will be well. HTOO NAING (22.07.05) -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear All, I am just back. The week is over. I will soon post some messages. Htoo Naing 48297 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta abhidhammika Dear Herman and all You wrote and asked: "This wisdom, knowing that you know something that folks in other sects don't, is "not of this world". ---- The same word lokuttara is used in the Abhidhamma and later, to describe the discrete moments of path consciousness and fruition. In that context it is often rendered as supramundane. Do you consider the two usages of lokuttara to be identical?" Yes, Herman. The term "lokuttaram" is an adjective to refer to any deeds of those who are Ariyaa - from Sotaapanna to Arahants. Thus, for example, if a Sotaapanna carries out the right thinking, that thinking is lokuttara thinking. If he made a donation to a charity such as Salvos, that donation is lokuttara donation. In fact, Herman, the adjectives "lokuttara" and "ariya" are interchangeable equivalents. Thus, Ariyamaggo and lokuttaramaggo are the same. With kind regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Suan, Thank you for taking the time to correct me. It is much appreciated. There are some things that I would like to add, that you would already know but perhaps did not think to be relevant to the matter. > > "You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, while > it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the > source/origin of lokuttara." > > Sorry, Herman, when I wrote my original post, I took the position > that the term "lokuttara" could not be found in the Suttas. So I did > not even bother searching it. Well, as it turns out, lokuttara is found in the Suttas. Thank you for finding that, and quoting the source. In the Kosambiya Sutta, the third of the "beyond the world" wisdoms acquired is along these lines. "Again the noble disciple reflects. This view I have gained is it also the view of the recluses and brahmins of other sects. Then he knows, this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses and brahmins of other sects. This is the third noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary." Here the rendering of whatever form of lokuttara is "not of the world". This wisdom, knowing that you know something that folks in other sects don't, is "not of this world". The same word lokuttara is used in the Abhidhamma and later, to describe the discrete moments of path consciousness and fruition. In that context it is often rendered as supramundane. Do you consider the two usages of lokuttara to be identical? With Kind Regards Herman 48298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Ken H, op 28-07-2005 02:17 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > Yes, so it is not a matter of technique - objects differ according to > accumulations. That was the point of Nina's story about noisy > neighbours and the different reactions that can occur. ------ N: It is so strange, one never knows beforehand. Now they take those kids out all day and at evening they tumble dead tired into bed, too tired to do the fighting and shouting just above my head when I am at the computer. One never knows what the seeing and hearing of the next moment will be. I heard this morning on MP3: there is seeing and hearing the whole day, but we are forgetful. Dhamma all around. Seeing and hearing are never lacking. Today at lunch in a restaurant Lodewijk and I had a Dhamma talk. Lodewijk said again that he understands much better why it is important to understand seeing and hearing, otherwise one cannot know the truth. I said that I heard Kh Sujin saying that in the Satipatthanasutta it is said that there should be awareness of feelings internally, of one's own, but also externally, of someone else. The same with awareness of citta: internally, and externally. She explained that when we are with others we cannot help noticing their feelings and moods. These can be the means for us to be aware of the present reality. It may be thinking, or our own feeling, or our reactions to others. Lodewijk said that this is a social aspect mostly forgotten. We can use everything that comes our way, no selection. I gave as example that we may see someone else who is sad and crying. Then we may also become sad, and there can be awareness of our own feelings. Lodewijk remarked that satipatthana is not theory that it encroaches on our daily life. It would be good if Sarah and Jon could discuss this subject more when in Noosa and also in Bgk! We can always learn more. Nina. 48299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6 / Related Suttas nilovg Hi Tep, thank you. I am not quite ready with the Co, and will react later on. Nina. op 28-07-2005 11:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > The Kundaliya Sutta should be studied along with other suttas in the > same group (Bojjhanga Samyutta) and related group, e.g. > Satipatthana Samyutta. 48300 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: Seclusion Week ( Htoo is away - 22.07.05) htootintnaing HTOO NAING (22.07.05) Seclusio = seclusion Delusio = delusion damn-black = jet-black = complete darkness = avijjaa = ignorance the master = the mind Hood-ties = tie-hood = sa.myojana = fetters --> avijja sa.myojana wisery = those dhamma that make wise lorry = computers, softwares, books, texts Docking at library = giving time in research for dhamma materials worry = the will to save dhamma materials snare = threaten Energo = energy week will be bare = the coming week will not be used (internet) Enhearto = things that are packed into the mind week will be well = feel free in the week ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear All, Just for those who love poems, I reinclude the gloss. Htoo Naing 48301 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:33am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 454 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala The first one has been discussed in the previous post. The second one are those individuals who are at the exact time when arahatta magga citta arises. So there is no other javana citta that may arise in these individuals. 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala or anagams In these individuals the possible javana cittas that can arise are a) 5 akusala javana cittas ( 4 ditthi-vippayutta lobha cittas and udd) b) 8 mahaakusala cittas ( kaama kusala javana ) c) 5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaanas ) d) 4 aruupakusala cittas ( 4 aruupa jhaanas ) e) 1 anaagaami phala citta -- 23 cittas In anaagams arahatta magga citta and arahatta phala citta may arise but when these cittas arise the individual is no more anaagams. There are 55 javana cittas. So other 32 javana cittas cannot arise in these anaagams. 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala These individuals are those where anaagaami magga citta arises. So no other javana citta can arise in these individuals. So all other 54 javana cittas cannot arise in these individuals. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 48302 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:27am Subject: Re: Ideal renderings + (attention to Bhikkhu Samahita) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend robert ao: > > _Ideal Pali renderings IMHO:_ > sati = awareness > sankappa = motivation > cetana = intention > vitakka = directed thought > vicara = sustained thinking > vinnana = consciousness > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Bhikkhu Samahita and Robert K, I do not think these words are equivalent. 1. sati = ? awareness 2. sankappa = ? motivation 3. cetana = ? intention 4. vitakka = ? directed thought 5. vicara = ? sustained thinking 6. vinnana = consciousness Awareness? Citta is aware of its object. This can happen without any sati. So 'sati' is not exactly 'awareness'. Awareness is part of character of citta or vinnaana or consciousness. Motivation? Sankappa is not motivation. Sankappa = sa.m + kappa. Sa.m means 'well' 'rightly or right' 'true' 'thorough'. Kappeti means 'to create, to build, to construct, to arrange, to order'. Sa.m + kappeti. As the following word starts with 'k', '.m' of sa.m changes into 'n' which is nasalised form of 'k'. Sankappa may involve in motivation. But sankappa is not equal to motivation. Intention? It is a mixture. Intention is more than cetana and cetana is more than intention. Regarding 'vitakka and vicara' there have been many discussions. Thinking is not equal to vitakka or vicara. Those who are in jhaana are not thinking. They are in jhaana and they are only at one object. There is no way to think anything. But there are vitakka and vicara if jhaana is 1st jhaana. Thanks for your recent responses, which we never found in the past. With respect, Htoo Naing 48303 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 500) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There come the last stock of akusala dhamma. The first 8 stocks of akusala have been discussed in the previous posts. 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There are 10 kilesa dhamma or 10 defilements. They are 1. lobha kilesa or 'defilement of attachment' 2. dosa kilesa or 'defilement of aversion' 3. moha kilesa or 'defilement of ignorance' 4. maana kilesa or 'defilement of conceit' 5. ditthi kilesa or 'defilement of wrong-view' 6. vicikicchaa kilesa or 'defilement of doubt' 7. thina kilesa or 'defilement of sloth' 8. uddhacca kilesa or 'defilement of upset' 9. ahirika kilesa or 'defilement of shamelessness' 10.anottappa kilesa or 'defilement of fearlessness' 5) and 6) or ditthi kilesa and vicikicchaa kilesa are eadicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge. 2) or dosa kilesa is eradicated by anagami magga naana or non-returning path- knowledge. All other defilements or kilesas are eradicated by arahatta magga naana or eradicating path-knowledge. These defilements are 1. lobha kilesa 2. moha kilesa 3. maana kilesa 4. thina kilesa 5. uddhacca kilesa 6. akirika kilesa 7. anottappa kilesa By examining kilesa or defilements it is apparent that all other lower ariyas or sikkha puggalas are still being soiled with many defilement. This is quite evident that sotapams, sakadagams, and anagams all will have these 7 kilesa even though they have eradicated certain kilesa with their respective path-knowledge. By examning kilesa it is apparent that only arahats are pure. So far there are 9 different stocks of akusala dhamma and they have been explained. All these akusala are in essence cetasika dhamma. They arise with citta and because of their arising citta has different names like lobha-citta, dosa-citta, moha-citta, maana-citta, tanhaa- citta, ditthi-citta, and son. So all these are just various presentations of cetasika dhamma ultimately. There are dhamma that are friends or peers to each other and they have similar implications. They will be discussed in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 2 transl. Vism.XIV,176 nilovg Hi Connie, thank you. I find Path of Purification c;oser to the Pali text. It is explained later that steadiness of consciousness is weak samaadhi. No Tiika to this one but I want to add something. Nina op 28-07-2005 04:54 schreef connie op connieparker@...:> > "The Path of Purity" p.553 > Of the two classes of consciousness rooted in delusion [471] there are > thirteen mental activities which are united with the consciousness > associated with perplexity, to wit: eleven appearing in their true nature > as: - > Contact Conscious Duration > Volition Unconscientiousness > Applied Thought Fearlessness of Blame > Sustained Thought Delusion > Energy Perplexity > Life 48305 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:54am Subject: The Buddha, The Dhamma and Thinking on Dhamma htootintnaing Dear All, Once The Buddha was in a forest and there also were bhikkhus. The Buddha took a handful of fallen leaves and showed bhikkhus and said; 'Bhikkhus! Look these leaves. What I preached to you is like these leaves in my hand where Dhamma that I know is like all those leaves in the whole forest'. The Buddha preached Dhamma in many different ways. Some individuals have far more power to see 'material matters' or 'ruupa'. In that case The Buddha preached 'aayatana', in which 10 of 12 dhammas are all ruupa. Some individuals have a greater power to understand 'mind matters' or 'naama'. In that case The Buddha preached 'khandha', in which 4 out of 5 khandhas are naama. Some individuals have a power to understand both 'material matters' or ruupa and 'mind matters' or naama. In that case The Buddha preached 'dhaatu', in which there are mixed or balanced ruupa and naama dhammas. That is 10 dhammas are ruupa and 8 dhammas are naama in dhaatu. There always is value in analysis in Dhamma. There is no overanalysis in Dhamma. But those who overanalyse are just analysing for proliferation of greed, hatred, ignorance and not for Dhamma. Contemplation on Dhamma, analysis on Dhamma etc is never 'overanalysis'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48306 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:12am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 09 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaas. 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movements' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-1' 7. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-2' 8. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-3' 9. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-4' 10. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-5' 11. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-6' 12. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-7' 13. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-8' 14. 6 contemplations on 'body foulness stage-9' --- 261 contemplations on body or 261 kaayaanupassanaas. There are 14 contemplations on body. When they are counted individually there are 261 contemplations. So far 207 contemplations have been talked. 261 - 207 = 54 contemplations. These 54 contemplations are contemplations on 9 stages of body foulness. They are the last 9 steps in 14 contemplations on body. In each step there are 6 contemplations. One is on the stage of own body foulness. Another is on others' body foulness. The third for contemplation on both 'own body foulness and others' body foulness'. The 4th is on origination, the 5th on dissolution and the 6th on both origination and dissolution. As there are 9 stages of foulness there are 54 contemplations on body foulness. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48307 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > N: As Connie recently said (in the context of the Discriminations), you do > not have to believe anything. Study what you are inclined to study, like the > suttas. I think it very important that everyone enjoys his study. It is best > for each individual to find out what is most beneficial for him. > Phil recommended to Herman the Kindred Sayings, and I think especially in > Kindred Sayings on Sense (IV) you find that it is like the Abhidhamma. Dhamma is clear, dhamma is explained by the Blessed One with clarity and from every possible point of approach. Then it is explained from the beginning to the end. Then in reverse. Dhamma is here, dhamma is experiential and the way of experience, of practice is also explained in great detail by the Blessed One. Abidhamma is nothing like that. Abidhammas teach things absent in Blessed One teachings from which the most important I've listed already so you and everyone else can read and correct me if I was wrong. But I see you don't want to discuss confusing definition of sankhara nor trace source of confusion. You change the topic of this thread to tell me that I am free to study what I want. I knew I am. But thank you for remaining me anyway. > But > one should find out in the course of the study whether Abhidhamma is Dhamma, > whether it is true that the Abhidhamma is not different from the Sutta > teaching. One can find out whether the Abhidhamma brings light in darkness, > whether it creates order in the chaotic condition of our mind. I reject this point of view as well. A shot of heroin creates order in mind. Getting what one want creates order in chaotic condition of mind. Killing an enemy creates order in mind longing for revenge. Lobotomy and brain surgery creates quiet, happy mind. Stupidity and ignorance is a bliss. > I am now reflecting on doubt that is coming up next with the Visuddhimagga > study. I like to think of the sotapanna who has eradicated doubt and has an > unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem as you can read in the suttas. There > is so much connection here. When a person always doubts he has no confidence > in the Dhamma. Reflecting on all such points helps me to see to what extent > the teachings pertain to daily life. And I always learn something new, it is > always fresh. > It is the same with the Commentaries. I feel no need to defend them, but I > think when reading them a person can see for himself whether they are > helpful. I am reading the Co to the Kundaliyasutta and I am just enjoying > the extra details the commentary gives. > Thus again, our study should be study with enjoyment, not in order to prove > anything or defend anything. > Nina. I have experienced a lot of enjoyment fishing, but I do not do that anymore. I know people who enjoy immensely study of papal infallibility and do not long for this kind of enjoyment as well. The Dhamma is not pretty at all. At least not in my eyes. The truth of dependent processes is painfully "down to earth". I practice leaving pretty things behind and don't search for happy filings. The only reason for me to start this thread was to learn more about sankharas. with the greatest respect, Agrios. 48308 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time egberdina Hi Joop, > Hallo Herman > > Have you ever read 'The mystique of the Abhidhamma' by Bhikkhu > Sujata, australian and funny ? > (www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/) > === Yeah, I read it and thought it was very funny, and quite pointed too. It was actually you who posted a link to it previously that led me to read it. === > Herman: "One that comes to mind just at the moment is the notion that > a rupa has the duration of 17 cittas. How is that soteriological? How > is that to be taken metaphorically? How is that to be taken > phenomenologically?" > Joop; I think phenomenologically but I'm too lazy for really trying > to write that down. I know not all DSG-participants and moderators > agree with my opinion. In fact that only is a kind of 'reduction of > cognitive dissonance' (a term I learned long time ago in colleges on > social science): a big part of Abhidhamma is either nonsense or meant > not-ontologic, not-literal and not-scientific. And my buddhistic > intuition is saying me that not nonsense. > > If you can not use Abhidhamma in this stadium of your live: read > something else, for example suttas. So simple is reality. === Sounds like good advice, Joop. The following is not a criticism of what you just said, it is just an observation that came to mind. "read something else". It is such a natural thing to say and do. Reading has become a part of our life, totally, hasn't it? It hasn't always been like that, being immersed in symbolic representations, but these days for us a world without the written word would be totally unimaginable. Another way of looking at our compulsive reading & studying habits is "feeding the beast". The thinking mind craves for concepts to juggle, that's all it can do. But if the purpose of our effort is to see the namas and rupas as they arise, change and cease, then reading a phone book is just as rewarding. Or not reading anything. Just a thought, that's all. Kind Regards Herman > > Metta > > Joop 48309 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Fruits of the Noble Way... !!! Evan_Stamato... Bhikkhu Samahita, Then is it correct to say that a Sotapanna has eradicated all the following wrong views: This is mine This I am This is my self With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bhikkhu Samahita Sent: Thursday, 28 July 2005 3:11 PM To: 1.6A; 1.5A Subject: [dsg] Fruits of the Noble Way... !!! Friends: How does the Noble 8-fold Way makes one Noble ? Having cultivated the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might enter the stream which leads to Nibbana! The Stream-Enterer (Sotapanna) is entirely freed from rebirth as Animal, Hungry Ghost, Angry Demon & Burning Hell Being! Such Noble One (Ariya) will be enlightened within maximally 7 rebirths... The Stream-Enterer has eliminated all egoism, belief in a 'person' or 'self', eradicated all 'I-making' & 'Mine-making', abolished all sceptical doubt in the perfect Self-Enlightenment of the Buddha, & removed silly superstitious belief in any benefit of empowerments and empty rituals. Such Noble have by direct momentary experience touched and tasted the deathless Nibbana and is forever hereafter independent of any Dhamma-teacher... Having cultured the Noble 8-fold Way even further, a being might attain the state of a Once-Returner (Sakadagami), who is reborn only once as human or lower god and then awakens in that next life! Such Noble have furthermore reduced sense-desire and aversion... Having yet further refined the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might attain the state of a Non-Returner (Anagami), who is reborn in the higher fine material worlds - The Pure Abodes - where they live for many universal cycles & there attain Nibbana without ever returning to the human or lower divine worlds... Such Noble have furthermore entirely eliminated sense-desire and aversion! Having fully perfected the Noble 8-fold Way one awakens as an Arahat, who is enlightened in this very life, by elimination of all remaining mental defects such as desire for fine form and formlessness, the subtle conceit that 'I am', latent tendency to restlessness and all ignorance. Such Noble One enters at the moment of death the freedom, bliss & peace of Nibbana without trace of clinging left... Further study: The Thirty-One Planes of Existence: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html The Noble Eightfold Path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48310 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:33pm Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta egberdina Hi Suan, Thanks very much indeed for the further time you have taken to answer me. It is greatly appreciated. > > Dear Herman and all > > You wrote and asked: > > "This wisdom, knowing that you know something that folks in other > sects don't, is "not of this world". ---- The same word lokuttara is > used in the Abhidhamma and later, to describe the discrete moments > of path consciousness and fruition. In that context it is often > rendered as supramundane. > > Do you consider the two usages of lokuttara to be identical?" > > Yes, Herman. The term "lokuttaram" is an adjective to refer to any > deeds of those who are Ariyaa - from Sotaapanna to Arahants. > > Thus, for example, if a Sotaapanna carries out the right thinking, > that thinking is lokuttara thinking. If he made a donation to a > charity such as Salvos, that donation is lokuttara donation. > > In fact, Herman, the adjectives "lokuttara" and "ariya" are > interchangeable equivalents. > > Thus, Ariyamaggo and lokuttaramaggo are the same. > I may be much too rigid in my thinking. And I would prefer to be told that, if that's how it appears. I just want to get something straight. Is sotapanna or ariya a momentary designation or a permanent designation? Is it a case of once having "seen the light" one is always a sotapanna, no longer able to think like a worldling, or is one a sotapanna or ariyan only at those times when there are the thoughts of a sotapanna or ariyan? Kind Regards Herman > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Suan, > > Thank you for taking the time to correct me. It is much appreciated. > > There are some things that I would like to add, that you would > already > know but perhaps did not think to be relevant to the matter. > > > > > "You make no reference to the source of the idea of lokuttara, > while > > it seems obvious to me that the whole thread revolves around the > > source/origin of lokuttara." > > > > Sorry, Herman, when I wrote my original post, I took the position > > that the term "lokuttara" could not be found in the Suttas. So I > did > > not even bother searching it. > > Well, as it turns out, lokuttara is found in the Suttas. Thank you > for > finding that, and quoting the source. > > In the Kosambiya Sutta, the third of the "beyond the world" wisdoms > acquired is along these lines. "Again the noble disciple reflects. > This view I have gained is it also the view of the recluses and > brahmins of other sects. Then he knows, this view with which I am > endowed, is not shared by recluses and brahmins of other sects. This > is the third noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not > shared > by the ordinary." > > Here the rendering of whatever form of lokuttara is "not of the > world". > > This wisdom, knowing that you know something that folks in other > sects > don't, is "not of this world". > > The same word lokuttara is used in the Abhidhamma and later, to > describe the discrete moments of path consciousness and fruition. In > that context it is often rendered as supramundane. > > Do you consider the two usages of lokuttara to be identical? > > > With Kind Regards > > > Herman 48311 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:35pm Subject: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - This week we study paragraphs 206 - 210. The focus is on combining (samodhaaneti) the powers (bala), combining the enlightenment (bojjhanga) factors, and combining the path. Please recall from the last presentation (para 203 - 205) that when he combines the faculties (indriya), he understands their domain(gocara) and penetrates (patvijjhati) their meaning(attha) of sameness(sama). This same theme is repeated for bala, bojjhanga, and magga. 206. 'He combines the powers': how does he combines (samodhaaneti) the powers? He combines the faith power (saddha bala) through its meaning of unshakability by nonfaith(assaddhiya). He combines the energy power (viriya bala) through its meaning of unshakability by indolence(kosajja). He combines the mindfulness power (sati bala) through its meaning of unshakability by negligence (pamaada). He combines the concentration power (samaadhi bala) through its meaning of unshakability by agitation(uddhacca). He combines the understanding power (panna bala) through its meaning of unshakability by ignorance. This person combines these powers on this object. Hence 'he combines the powers' is said. 207. 'He understands their domain' ...[etc. as in para 205 to the end]. 208. 'He combines the enlightenment factors': how does he combine (samodhaaneti) the enlightenment(bojjhanga) factors? He combines the mindfulness enlightenment factor through its meaning of establishment(foundation). He combines the investigation-of-ideas enlightenment factor through its meaning of investigating(paricaya). He combines the energy enlightenment factor through its meaning of exerting(paggaha). He combines the happiness(piti) enlightenment factor through its meaning of intentness upon(pharana). He combines the tranquillity(passaddhi) enlightenment factor through its meaning of peace(upasama). He combines the concentration enlightenment factor through its meaning of non-distraction(avikkhepa). He combines the equanimity(upekkha) enlightenment factor through its meaning of reflexion(patisankha). This person combines these enlightenment factors on this object. Hence 'he combines the enlightenment factors' is said. 209 'He understands their domain: ... [etc. as in para 205 up to the end]. 210. 'He combines the path': how does he combine(samodhaaneti) the path? He combines right view through its meaning of seeing (dassana). He combines right thought(sankappa) through its meaning of directing onto(abhiniropana). He combines right speaking through its meaning of embracing(pariggaha). He combines right acting through its meaning of originating(samutthaana). He combines right living through its meaning of cleansing(vodaana). He combines right effort through its meaning of exerting. He combines right mindfulness through its meaning of establishing (foundation). He combines right concentration(samaadhi) through its meaning of non-distraction. This person combines this path on this object. Hence 'he combines the path' is said. Tep's comment: It is not clear how the meditator combines (brings together) the various bodhipakkhiya dhammas with anupassana-nana during the kayanupasana satipatthana (first tetrad) of the breathing meditation . Recall that so far the meditator is still at the first vatthu (long in-breaths and out-breaths) of the anapanasati bhavana. Do you have any thought on this? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG & SD members - > > This week we study paragraphs 202 - 205. > > Please recall that in the "exercise of mindfulness and awareness" of > the first vatthu (i.e. "long in-breaths and out-breaths"), feelings, > perception and applied-thoughts(vitakka) arise, are established > (or "appear"), and are recognized as they subside. > 48312 From: "seisen_au" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:48pm Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta seisen_au Hi Suan, Herman, All Some comments and questions below. > > Yes, Herman. The term "lokuttaram" is an adjective to refer to any > deeds of those who are Ariyaa - from Sotaapanna to Arahants. I would of thought that any akusala citta/cetasikas/deed of a Sotapanna could not be considered lokuttara? > Thus, for example, if a Sotaapanna carries out the right thinking, > that thinking is lokuttara thinking. If he made a donation to a > charity such as Salvos, that donation is lokuttara donation. Are there any references to lokuttara dana? Are magga or phala cittas considered a type of dana? My understanding was that lokuttara was limited to nibbana and the citta and cetasikas that have nibbana as object, ie, magga and phala citta and cetasikas and nibbana? > In fact, Herman, the adjectives "lokuttara" and "ariya" are > interchangeable equivalents. At the moment of akusala citta for a sotapanna, I would think that that citta/cetasika would still be considered ariyan, because the defilements of wrong view etc have been completely eradicated? But I don't think an ariyan akusala citta/cetasika could be considered lokuttara? > Thus, Ariyamaggo and lokuttaramaggo are the same. Yes. > With kind regards, > > Suan Rgds Steve 48313 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 0:12am Subject: e-Card from Bondi jonoabb Hi All Greetings from Bondi Beach (Sydney), which is looking true to its picture postcard self -- clear blue sky, crystal clear water, calm seas with waves rolling in dotted with board-riders (this is how it is from dawn till dusk each day). On our first day here the weather was colder and not so fine (it's winter here, of course), and Sarah and I were among the few hardy souls that braved the water. As I was coming out from my swim I was besieged by a group of tourists (from Korea, I believe) wanting to have their photo taken with a real Bondi surfie. Little did they realize ... We have been following the excellent discussion on the list. Thanks to all those writing in. For Rob M and others, you may find previous posts on 'caritas' under 'character' in UP. Next week we will be staying in the City, where I expect to find time to start posting to the list. Sarah and I are also very much looking forward to meeting up with Herman (with Commentary notes ;-)) and Antony. Cheers for now Jon 48314 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Freed by Knowing ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Causes of Release by Knowledge ? Association with a Great Man completes hearing this True Dhamma.. Hearing the true Dhamma completes Faith, Confidence & Conviction.. Faith, confidence and conviction completes Rational Attention.. Rational attention completes Mindfulness & Clear Comprehension.. Mindfulness & clear comprehension completes Guarding the Senses.. Guarding the senses completes Good Mental, Verbal & Bodily Actions.. Good modes of action completes the Four Foundations of Awareness.. The 4 foundations of awareness completes the 7 Links to Awakening.. The 7 links to Awakening completes Mental Release by Knowledge...!!! Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya V 115 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 excerpts http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 complete http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up & I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calmed, Freed, Bliss !!! 48316 From: nina Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:05am Subject: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1. nilovg Kundaliyasutta and Commentary. Text: "Ku.n.daliya, the Tathaagata lives for the benefit and fruit of true knowledge and liberation." [note 68] "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated fulfil true knowledge and liberation?" "The seven factors of enlightenment, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?" "The four establishments of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. "And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties developed and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. *********** Co: the attachment that is worldly, aamisa. ------ Text: His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. ------- N: kaaya stands for naama-kaaya, the mental body, namely the cetasikas. The Co states: his mental body and citta are inwardly steady on the object. Steady because of the kammathaana. Well liberated: because of the kammathaana. N: my remark: the kammathaana, meditation subject can be that of samatha or of vipassanaa. --------- Text: But having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. ------ Co: he is not shocked by that form [N:visible object] and the citta is not overcome by defilements, not overcome by unpleasant feeling nor by dosa. ------ Text: "Further, Ku.n.daliya, having heard an agreeable sound with the ear … having smelt an agreeable odour with the nose … having savoured an agreeable taste with the tongue … having felt an agreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. But having cognised a disagreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. "When Ku.n.daliya, after he has seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and disagreeable forms; when, after he has heard a sound with the ear … smelt an odour with the nose … savoured a taste with the tongue … felt a tactile object with the body … cognised a mental phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena, then his restraint of the sense faculties has been developed and cultivated in such a way that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. ------- Co. explains that there are eighteen kinds of akusala, namely the akusala that arises in the six doorway processes that are expressed through body and speech and are dwelt on by the mind. It explains that when a pleasant object is experienced at first through the eyedoor and lobha arises but there is no action or speech yet, then there is wrong conduct through the mind. When someone speaks with lobha, saying, Œthis is attractive and desirable¹, then there is wrong conduct through speech. When he takes that pleasant thing with his hand, then there is wrong conduct through the body. And it is the same with regard to the other sense-doors and the mind-door. N: The Co then gives examples of musical instruments that are the basis of sound experienced through the eardoor, a flower that is the basis of odour experienced through the nosedoor, fish or meat that is the basis of flavour experienced through the tonguedoor, a robe that is the basis of tangible object experienced through the bodydoor, concepts such as butter, oil or honey that are experienced through the mind-door. The Co. states that in short there are three kinds of wrong conduct: in the six door processes there are wrong conduct through body, speech and mind. The Co. explains about wholesome conduct of the bhikkhu. There is a change from wrong conduct to right conduct by contemplating the objects with mindfulness. When a desirable object enters the avenue of the eye-door, he develops insight that has visible object as its object. This is wholesome conduct through the mind. When he speaks with a citta that is accompanied by insight wisdom, saying, Œdhammas are subject to decay¹, this is wholesome conduct through speech. When he does not take up a thing that is not allowed to be touched [N: anaamasana, according to Vinaya] there is wholesome bodily conduct. And it is the same with regard to the other doorways. There are eighteen kinds of wholesome conduct according to the method of teaching in detail. And according to the method of teaching in short: there are with regard to the six doors the restraint of the body that is wholesome bodily conduct, the restraint of speech that is wholesome conduct through speech and the restraint of the mind, that is wholesome mental conduct. It should be understood that the restraint of these faculties (indriya) will lead to the fulfilment of the three kinds of wholesome conduct. To that extent it he spoke of the restraint of the faculties which is siila that has been observed. **** Nina. 48317 From: nina Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:05am Subject: citta sankhaara, a correction. nilovg Hi Tep, I oversaw an aspect of sankhaara. In the Breathing treatise we learnt about kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, and feeling and saññaa are included in citta sankhaara in this context. You were right when you mentioned this. Nina. 48318 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. nilovg Hi Agrios, op 28-07-2005 20:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > Abidhammas teach things absent in Blessed One teachings N: You and I are of different backgounds, we have different accumulated tendencies and inclinations, and this shows how anatta such inclinations are. They are really conditioned and are expressed by speech. I understand that you think differently about the Abhidhamma. --------- A: But I see you don't want to discuss confusing definition > of sankhara nor trace source of confusion. > You change the topic of this thread to tell me that I am > free to study what I want. -------- N: I tried to explain about sankhaara from the beginning, but I also know that you do not take to the Abhidhamma. So, nobody should force himself to study what he dislikes. -------- A: The Dhamma is not pretty at all. At least not in my eyes. > The truth of dependent processes is painfully "down to earth". > I practice leaving pretty things behind and don't search for > happy feelings. ------ N: Down to earth, certainly. But, there is also a sunny side. The Buddha taught us the way to liberation from dukkha. We should be grateful to him and have real confidence in his teaching. This can fill us with joy, and here I do not mean the akusala joy that is with attachment. I mean assurance that can grow when we have more understanding of his teachings. ***** Nina. 48319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. nilovg Hi Tep, He develops also all the stages of vipassanaa, not only jhaana with breath as object. Even when he has as object long in-breaths and out-breaths he also in between develops insight. The anapanasati is incorporated into the mahaasatipatthaanasutta and that makes all the difference. As he develops insight also the factors of enlightenment, all of them, develop along with satipatthana. Thus, they are all combined. Nina. op 29-07-2005 05:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > It is not clear how the meditator combines (brings together) the various > bodhipakkhiya dhammas with anupassana-nana during the > kayanupasana satipatthana (first tetrad) of the breathing meditation . > Recall that so far the meditator is still at the first vatthu (long in-breaths > and out-breaths) of the anapanasati bhavana. Do you have any > thought on this? 48320 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 455 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala The first 4 individuals have been discussed in the previous posts. 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala In these individuals javana cittas that can arise are a) 7 akusala cittas( 4 ditthi-vippayutta and vicik excluded) b) 8 mahaakusala cittas ( kaama kusala javana ) c) 5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaanas ) d) 4 aruupakusala cittas ( 4 aruupa jhaanas ) e) 1 sakadaagaami phala -- 25 cittas Other 30 javana cittas cannot arise in these individuals. The potential cittas that may arise in them are 1. anaagaami magga citta 2. anaagaami phala citta 3. arahatta magga citta 4. arahatta phala citta But when these cittas arise in them they are no more sakadaagams but change into other type of individuals. 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala The only javana citta that arises in these individuals is sakadaagaami magga citta. No ther javana cittas can arise in these individuals. If other javana cittas arise they are no more sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. So other 54 javana cittas cannot arise in these individuals. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 48321 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > The following is not a criticism of what you just said, it is just an observation that came to mind. > > "read something else". It is such a natural thing to say and do. > Reading has become a part of our life, totally, hasn't it? It hasn't > always been like that, being immersed in symbolic representations, but > these days for us a world without the written word would be totally > unimaginable. > > Another way of looking at our compulsive reading & studying habits is > "feeding the beast". The thinking mind craves for concepts to juggle, > that's all it can do. But if the purpose of our effort is to see the > namas and rupas as they arise, change and cease, then reading a phone > book is just as rewarding. Or not reading anything. > > Just a thought, that's all. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Hallo Herman, That's a wise remark. I know that because that's what my wife is saying many times to me Metta Joop 48322 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:13am Subject: Transcendent(AL) nichiconn also, Suan and Herman after. i may be too liberal and/or literal with your being interested in any thoughts, AL, but my meanderings: love what nina said about "study w/enjoyment". :) "beside myself, w/joy". To think of never laughing again! "Nevermore". Bliss... BB in the MN mp3s Chris linked us to mentions a shortage of english for such as piti, nandi, sukha, rati, 'happy state of mind'. Also :) a commentarial glossing of 'in no long time' as ~12yrs !! Patience, good cheer. What, the courage to be happy? Be well. More easily said than dun. haha...i like that typo. I find I lose BB background more readily than dsg mp3s. am back to '04Indias & had missed Ben4 somehow. Good for Sarah or she'd have the dirty laundry this washerwoman didn't feel like sorting on her day off. now it'll just lie around and who knows when i'll get around to recollecting it. The commentators are strict. And gone. There is no winning any argument with them. No one in their right minds would have to read them, but reading has its rewards. And it is just 'my thing' anyway since before i quit living in trees. AL_Ways... that's you. Me: parisa.tho ("a complete fraud") [aka "a con"]. I joke, seriously. Sorry, I know that disrespects what may be the biggest precept. I also admit I've laughed aloud great belly laughs reading abhidhamma yet, no doubt, there is nothing funny about the text. always moments of genuine kusala bhavana are outnumbered by those of less heedful, etc. nature/character. i think in the post i didn't send the other day, i asked what you understand by nimitta and anubya~njana. Sometimes I couldn't even say what I've just read, but today at lunch, read in Points some interesting considerations of Buddha's ordinary, habitual speech. I liked Suan's relating/equating noble and lokuttara and dare say he is not 'overemphasizing the supernormal side of it'. But, just the last 4 sections of the text follow. peace, con-duh <<< [8] A. - But you may with one golden wand point out both a heap of paddy and a heap of gold. So the Exalted One, with his supramundane habitual speech, habitually spoke about both mundane and supramundane doctrine. Th. - It is no less possible to point out both paddy and gold with a wand of castor-oil wood. So the Exalted One, with his mundane habitual speech, habitually spoke about both mundane and supramundane matter. [9] Now some of you {1-So the Comy.} say that the habitual speech of the Exalted One the Buddha was mundane when speaking to one so conversing, supramundane when speaking to one so conversing. But this implies that his words impinged on mundane hearing when he spoke of worldly things, and on the supramundane hearing when he spoke of supramundane things; also that his hearers understood with their mundane intelligence in the former case; and with their supramundane intelligence in the latter; also that average persons understood in the former case, disciples in the latter. To which you do not agree. [10] A. - It is wrong then, according to you, to say that the Exalted Buddha's customary speech was mundane when he spoke of mundane matters, supramundane when he spoke of supramundane matters. But did he not use both kinds of speech? You assent. Then surely what you maintain is untenable. [11] Again, your proposition involves this further admission: that the speech of anyone becomes that of which he is speaking - that if you speak of Path, your word becomes Path; similarly of what is not Path, of Fruit, of Nibbaana, of the Conditioned, of matter, of mind and their opposites. <<>> 48323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Transcendent(AL) nilovg Hi Connie, Steve, Suan, I also was puzzled by Suan's use of lokuttara and was about to ask the same Q. as Steve. I was also thinking: mundane daana? Since the object of daana is kaamavacara, it is parittaaramma.na. But your Katavatthu text makes it clear. Especially: Nina. op 29-07-2005 17:13 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > I liked Suan's > relating/equating noble and lokuttara and dare say he is not > 'overemphasizing the supernormal side of it'. 48324 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:44pm Subject: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 christine_fo... Hello all, Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a noble steed." (380) metta Chris 48325 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 0:34am Subject: Still Conceited yet without view of a particular 'I'-dentification...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Evan Stamatopoulos who wisely asked: >Then is it correct to say that a Sotapanna >has eradicated all following wrong views: >This is mine >This I am >This is my self The Sotapanna has IMHO eradicated the wrong view of regarding neither anything among nor apart from the five clusters of clinging as 'his' or 'self', but he has yet to eradicate a subtle lingering latent tendency to the conceit 'I am', which have been reinforced since an unimaginable beginning... So he does not think: 'This form, feeling, perception, construction and consciousness is I, me or mine...' nor: 'Something outside or apart from this form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness is my self...' Still he views it like this: "I exists" or I am" without pointing to anything specific 'This' as the basis of this falsely assumed 'Ego', 'I-dentity' or 'Self'... Like despite newly washed clothes is dry and clean, there still hangs a smell of soap in it... So do the sotapanna's conceit remains a while! The classic reference is the Elder Khemaka: SN 22(89) III [127-132]: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. <...> 48326 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:05am Subject: The pit of 'personal' opinions ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend htootintnaing wrote: Among other 'personal' opinions: >Those who are in jhaana are not thinking! They are in jhaana and >they are only at one object. There is no way to think anything... >But there are vitakka and vicara if jhaana is 1st jhaana. Dear friend Htoot: One-pointedness does not exclude Thinking in so far as this is about the single and same object...!!! If that was the case were deeper insight impossible!!! Example: Thinking solely: 'This is just a bone' can easily lead to & maintain 1st, but not 2nd jhana !!! Kayagatasati can thus despite a diversity of many objects induce 1st jhana... As said: One's favorite renderings change with time, when one's understanding (hopefully) gradually deepens ;-)... So be careful with the sword! Don't swing it now nor later! your very friend in the Dhamma : - ] 48327 From: Sadhu Chew Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:30am Subject: (No subject) chewsadhu Pls explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense, since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities. example: If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do. It is prompted citta arises in me. question: (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'? (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)? (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)? note: (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the mental process which only happen in the manodvaravithi. (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with prompted citta. (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta. When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the mind-door process (manodvaravithi). 48328 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:41am Subject: 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense chewsadhu Pls help to explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense, since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities. example: If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do. It is prompted citta arises in me. question: (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'? (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)? (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)? note: (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the mental process which only happen in the manodvaravithi. (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with prompted citta. (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta. When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the mind-door process (manodvaravithi). With Metta 48329 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Nina and Rob M, --------- KH: >> Yes, so it is not a matter of technique - objects differ according to accumulations. That was the point of Nina's story about noisy neighbours and the different reactions that can occur. >> --------- Sorry for that misleading statement. Accumulations, as Rob was saying, can result in different objects of satipatthana being taken by different people. They don't condition the objects themselves. -------------------------- N: > It is so strange, one never knows beforehand. Now they take those kids out all day and at evening they tumble dead tired into bed, too tired to do the fighting and shouting just above my head when I am at the computer. One never knows what the seeing and hearing of the next moment will be. I heard this morning on MP3: there is seeing and hearing the whole day, but we are forgetful. --------------------------- In days gone by, I would have reacted to that by "directing" my attention to seeing or hearing. But it is better to understand forgetfulness than to misunderstand conditionality. :-) ------------------ N: > Dhamma all around. Seeing and hearing are never lacking. ------------------- Yes, even when there are concepts there are really only dhammas. ------------------------------ N: > Today at lunch in a restaurant Lodewijk and I had a Dhamma talk. Lodewijk said again that he understands much better why it is important to understand seeing and hearing, otherwise one cannot know the truth. ------------------------------- Even though we understand there are only dhammas, our understanding can be pretty weak, can't it? The more we know about seeing and hearing the better we understand there are only dhammas. -------------------------------------------- N: > I said that I heard Kh Sujin saying that in the Satipatthanasutta it is said that there should be awareness of feelings internally, of one's own, but also externally, of someone else. The same with awareness of citta: internally, and externally. She explained that when we are with others we cannot help noticing their feelings and moods. These can be the means for us to be aware of the present reality. It may be thinking, or our own feeling, or our reactions to others. ----------------------------------------------- And it is sati and panna that can be aware - not a controlling self. ----------------- N: > Lodewijk said that this is a social aspect mostly forgotten. ----------------- I know what he means. And it was good to see it explained. -------------------------------- N: > We can use everything that comes our way, no selection. I gave as example that we may see someone else who is sad and crying. Then we may also become sad, and there can be awareness of our own feelings. --------------------------------- And we don't have to wait until next time we see someone who is sad and crying. As you say, we (or sati and panna) can use everything that comes our way - here and now. --------------------------------------------------------- N: > Lodewijk remarked that satipatthana is not theory that it encroaches on our daily life. It would be good if Sarah and Jon could discuss this subject more when in Noosa and also in Bgk! We can always learn more. ------------------------------- Thanks Nina, I will add it to my list. Ken H 48330 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176. Moha-muulacittas lbidd2 Nina: "There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root and they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. They are: 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness *** Restlessness or agitation, uddhacca, accompanies each akusala citta. But in this case the second type of akusala citta rooted in delusion or ignorance is called associated with restlessness in order to differentiate it from the first type of moha-muulacitta. It has moha as its only root." Hi Nina, I'm interested in how ignorance functions as blindness. Can you bring that into the discussion? Is moha mula citta a consciousness that is not conscious? Larry 48331 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:20pm Subject: Re: citta sankhaara, a correction. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I appreciate your acknowledgement of citta-sankhara as follows: >N: I oversaw an aspect of sankhaara. In the Breathing treatise we learnt >about kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, and feeling and sanna >are included in citta sankhaara in this context. You were right when > you mentioned this. T: The reason I tried to get your keen mind to turn towrad citta-sankhara is because someone had asked me a question that I could not answer. Question: Sanna and vedana are two cetasikas in the overall 52. Why are sanna and vedana chosen to be called citta-sankhara( mental fabrications or formations), not the other 50 (which are grouped into the sankharakkhandha). The explanation we have seen in MN44 is not clear <" Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." >, because the other 50 cetasikas are "tied up with the mind" too. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, (snipped) > Nina. 48332 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - In the previous post I asked : > > Tep: > > It is not clear how the meditator combines (brings together) the various bodhipakkhiya dhammas with anupassana-nana during the > > kayanupasana satipatthana (first tetrad) of the breathing meditation . > > Recall that so far the meditator is still at the first vatthu > >(long in-breaths and out-breaths) of the anapanasati bhavana. > >Do you have any thought on this? And your key points in the answer to my question are : -- The anapanasati is incorporated into the mahaasatipatthaanasutta and that makes all the difference. -- As he develops insight also the factors of enlightenment, all of them, develop along with satipatthana. Tep: The above two key points fit very well with a highly-advanced meditator who has acquired skills in both anapanasati (all 4 tetrads) and satipatthana bhavana. How about the following scenario? Now he again goes through the breathing meditation and non- distracted mindfulness is quickly established, even when he is just at the first vatthu. Due to arising insight knowledges on the basis of well- balanced faculties, the factors of enlightenment start to come together. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > He develops also all the stages of vipassanaa, not only jhaana with breath as object. Even when he has as object long in-breaths and out- breaths he also in between develops insight. The anapanasati is incorporated into the mahaasatipatthaanasutta and that makes all the difference. > As he develops insight also the factors of enlightenment, all of them, > develop along with satipatthana. Thus, they are all combined. > Nina. > op 29-07-2005 05:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > 48333 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: Still Conceited yet without view of a particular 'I'-dentification...!!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend Evan Stamatopoulos who wisely asked: > > >Then is it correct to say that a Sotapanna > >has eradicated all following wrong views: > >This is mine > >This I am > >This is my self Dear Bhante Refering to SN 22-89 you acknowledged that the Teaching on anatta can shortly be expressed as: Thinking 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self' is a wrong view. But as far as I know the Buddha has never said: Thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' is a wrong view; or Thinking 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' is a wrong view. This 'translation' of the Words of the Buddha can not be made automatically, as a kind of linguistic logic. And this translation can also not be made in a liberating way, because it's not possible to have metta and karuna for a sentient being, when treating that being as a 'it'. So formally speaking it's not correct to say "from the five clusters of clinging as 'his'" Do you agree? Metta Joop 48334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness nilovg Hi Ken H, I am delighted with your post. You gave me wonderful reminders which I shall highlight. op 30-07-2005 00:02 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > -------------------------- > N:heard this morning on MP3: there is seeing and hearing the whole > day, but we are forgetful. > --------------------------- > K: In days gone by, I would have reacted to that by "directing" my > attention to seeing or hearing. But it is better to understand > forgetfulness than to misunderstand conditionality. :-) ------ N: Words can be a reminder for sati, but also there is lobha creeping in, wanting to direct attention. > ------------------------------ > N: > Today at lunch in a restaurant Lodewijk and I had a Dhamma talk. > Lodewijk said again that he understands much better why it is > important to understand seeing and hearing, otherwise one cannot know > the truth. > ------------------------------- > K: Even though we understand there are only dhammas, our understanding > can be pretty weak, can't it? The more we know about seeing and > hearing the better we understand there are only dhammas. > > -------------------------------------------- N: Yes, that is why we can never hear enough about what seeing sees, not a thing or person. When we listen with understanding, understanding can grow. We should relaize that we know very little about seeing and hearing and should learn more. -------- quote N: > I said that I heard Kh Sujin saying that in the > Satipatthanasutta it is said that there should be awareness of > feelings internally, of one's own, but also externally, of someone > else.... These can be the means for us to be aware > of the present reality. It may be thinking, or our own feeling, or > our reactions to others. > ----------------------------------------------- > K: And it is sati and panna that can be aware - not a controlling self. ------ N: Paññaa has to become keen to notice such moments with subtle lobha. When I hear about the social aspect I am so keen to learn more and then I *want* to use this aspect. It seems that whatever we do is with lobha, but it is necessary that paññaa detects such moments. So, I am very glad about your reminders. -------------------------------- quote N: > We can use everything that comes our way, no selection. I gave > as example that we may see someone else who is sad and crying. Then > we may also become sad, and there can be awareness of our own > feelings. > --------------------------------- > Ken: And we don't have to wait until next time we see someone who is sad > and crying. As you say, we (or sati and panna) can use everything > that comes our way - here and now. ------ N: Thanks a lot, with appreciation, Nina. 48335 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:49pm Subject: The 7 Links to Awakening ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Seven Links to Awakening ? Awareness is a link to Awakening (sati-sambojjhanga). Investigation of the states is a link to Awakening (vicaya). Energy is a link to Awakening (viriya-sambojjhanga). Joy is a link to Awakening (piti-sambojjhanga). Tranquillity is a link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga). Concentration is a link to Awakening (samadhi-sambojjhanga). Equanimity is a link to Awakening (upekkha-sambojjhanga). These are the seven links leading to final Enlightenment... Whose minds are well-developed in the factors of self-awakening, who delight in non-clinging, relinquishing all grasping, radiant, beaming & shining, fermentations all ended: they, in this world, are Unbound here! Further Study: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2g.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48336 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:59am Subject: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Joop wrote: As I understand it: Thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' is indeed a wrong view! Thinking 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' is a indeed also wrong view! On the absolute level, yet naturally not as daily conventional speech... Again absolutely speaking: Whether one deposits an entity: 'same being, same self, unchanging & identical' to any internal OR any external transient clusters of clinging, it remains equally false, since the main assumptions of stability and autonomy simply are untrue...!!! : - ] 48337 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: citta sankhaara, a correction. nilovg Hi Tep, op 30-07-2005 06:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> N: I oversaw an aspect of sankhaara. ------- N: Sorry, a very kind person taught me that:* I oversaw* should be:* I overlooked* :-)) I am very grateful to have a free English lesson, looking forward to more. ---------- Tep quotes:In the Breathing treatise we learnt >> about kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, and feeling and sanna >> are included in citta sankhaara in this context. You were right when >> you mentioned this. > > T: The reason I tried to get your keen mind to turn towrad citta-sankhara is > because someone had asked me a question that I could not answer. > > Question: Sanna and vedana are two cetasikas in the overall 52. Why are > sanna and vedana chosen to be called citta-sankhara( mental > fabrications or formations), not the other 50 (which are grouped into the > sankharakkhandha). The explanation we have seen in MN44 is not clear > <" Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the > mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." >, > because the other 50 cetasikas are "tied up with the mind" too. ------ N: I quote from whta I wrote before in my series on anapanasati, about the second tetrad: As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: The Vis. adds that this tetrad deals with the contemplation of feeling. ***** As you say: the other 50 cetasikas are "tied up with the mind" too. In this context there is reference to contemplation on feelings, thus it is under this heading. We should consider under what heading dhammas are explained. The four tetrads are classified according to the four Applications of Mindfulness, this is for the purpose of teaching those who can be led to enlightenment and for beautifying the teaching. Nina. 48338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176. Moha-muulacittas nilovg Hi Larry, op 30-07-2005 05:01 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, > moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root and they are > accompanied by indifferent feeling. They are: > 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt > 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness > *** > Restlessness or agitation, uddhacca, accompanies each akusala citta. But > in this case the second type of akusala citta rooted in delusion or > ignorance is called associated with restlessness in order to > differentiate it from the first type of moha-muulacitta. It has moha as > its only root." L: I'm interested in how ignorance functions as blindness. Can you bring > that into the discussion? Is moha mula citta a consciousness that is not > conscious? --------- N: It must know an object, since it is citta. It is difficult to know the second type of akusala citta rooted in delusion. We are often forgetful, as it were asleep even while we are awake. At such moments there can be cittas rooted in attachment with indifferent feeling, but, when there are no lobha, dosa, or doubt, but we are not thinking that has as objective dana, siila or bhaavanaa, then there are many, many moha-muulacittas associated with restlessness. There must be countless cittas of this type, but since we are forgetful, as it were asleep, we do not realize them. When we learn the difference between forgetfulness and a moment of being awake with sati, we can begin to understand moha. The Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p 17) explains that although restlessness accompanies all akusala cittas, in this type of citta it takes a dominant part, it is powerful. It is also said that the two types of moha-muulacittas are Moha-muulacitta arises in a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the six doors. When the object is sound, hearing arises in that process, and shortly afterwards there are javanacittas which may be kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Hearing can be closely followed by moha-muulacittas associated with restlessness and these experience sound which has not fallen away yet. I think we do not have the faintest notion of the amount of moha-muulacittas arising in a day. If the Buddha had not taught this, we would not know. Nina. 48339 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello all, I'm back (for now) nilovg Hi Andrew L, Welcome back. --------- AL: I must inform you I have delayed responding to the latest threads by > Sarah, et al largely because of differences in our attitudes that I > could not work out mentally or get over. > Mostly this is the idea of > non-self. My position was that self-idea woujld not be gotten rid > of until sotapanna stage, and that until that time, at least, we may > act as a single person, performing the work that is required to > reach that very stage. > ---------------------------------- N: Sarah is now off on vacation for a month, you may have misunderstood what she said. The Buddha did not tell people to force themselves into living without the idea of self. He helped people to have more understanding of their lives and he taught that also understanding is non-self. The consequence is: leave the development of paññaa to conditions. Nobody can hasten its development, than one overstrains. Howard spoke about softpedalling. Take it easy, that is better for your peace of mind. Lead your normal daily life with your parents, with your friends, talking about non-dhamma things. You spoke about transcendental meditation, but if you overreach it may be harmful. It is helpful to study the dhamma little by little, as Sarah explained. She gave you tips for some books, like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. It all helps and then nothing is forced. ------ AL: I could not (and still may not be able to) > understand the idea of never acting with a view of self-- it was > completely foreign to my experience in practise. ----- N: You should know that we are all the same, we have not eradicated the self belief. We should not try to eradicate it, when paññaa has developed, paññaa will eradicate it. When the time is ripe, not before. Nina. 48340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 nilovg Hello Christine, op 29-07-2005 22:44 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis > on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised > some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only > possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? > > "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. > Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) > > "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's > refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a > noble steed." (380) ------ N: I know some people wonder about the meaning when they see these texts. The Buddha also spoke in conventional language when exhorting people. Just as we do now in daily life. But taking into account the whole context of the Tipitaka we do not misunderstand such words. Even a few verses back in the Dhammapada: vs. 367: This is a good reminder: be your own refuge. Or, as Kh Sujin says, people should develop their own understanding. This means: be aware of dhammas and find out the truth yourself, it is not enough to read texts or to repeat what others say. See also Attavagga, vs. 157: If one hold one's self dear, one should protect oneself well... As to the word control, sa.mvara, we can take it in the right sense. We can also use the word guarding, or restraint. So long as we understand that it is paññaa and sati that control. But do we really? That is another question. I should become more truthful. Nina. 48341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. nilovg Hi Tep, op 30-07-2005 06:51 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: It is not clear how the meditator combines (brings together) the various bodhipakkhiya dhammas with anupassana-nana during the > > kayanupasana satipatthana (first tetrad) of the breathing meditation . > > Recall that so far the meditator is still at the first vatthu > >(long in-breaths and out-breaths) of the anapanasati bhavana. your key points in the answer to my question are : > N: -- The anapanasati is incorporated into the mahaasatipatthaanasutta > and that makes all the difference. > -- As he develops insight also the factors of enlightenment, all of them, > develop along with satipatthana. > > Tep: The above two key points fit very well with a highly-advanced > meditator who has acquired skills in both anapanasati (all 4 tetrads) > and satipatthana bhavana. How about the following scenario? > Now he again goes through the breathing meditation and non- > distracted mindfulness is quickly established, even when he is just at > the first vatthu. Due to arising insight knowledges on the basis of well- > balanced faculties, the factors of enlightenment start to come together. -------- N: As I see it, the meditator is already advanced in jhaana, he has the masteries, that is, he can enter and emerge at any time. After emerging from jhana, he develops insight. We read in the Visuddhimagga as to the first tetrad of the anapanasati sutta: The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: The meditator is highly gifted, has accumulated great paññaa so that he can attain even arahatship. Thus even when the meditator is with the first tetrad, he develops vipassana, including the enlightenment factors leading to arahatship. Nina. 48342 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: citta sankhaara, a correction. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (and RobertK) - It has been very kind of you to open-mindedly answer my questions (no matter what they are -- good or bad, stupid or smart, stubborn or agreeable, etc.). >N: As you say: the other 50 cetasikas are "tied up with the mind" too. In this context there is reference to contemplation on feelings, thus it is under this heading. We should consider under what heading dhammas are explained. > The four tetrads are classified according to the four Applications of > Mindfulness, this is for the purpose of teaching those who can be led to enlightenment and for beautifying the teaching. Tep: I did not think of that context (contemplation of feeling) before. Without this help from the Commentary through you, it would have remained unanswered for years. Thank you very much, Nina. Warm regards, Tep ========= --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > > op 30-07-2005 06:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > >> N: I oversaw an aspect of sankhaara. > ------- > N: Sorry, a very kind person taught me that:* I oversaw* should be:* I > overlooked* :-)) > I am very grateful to have a free English lesson, looking forward to more. > ---------- > Tep quotes:In the Breathing treatise we learnt about kaaya- sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, and feeling and sanna are included in citta sankhaara in this context. You were right when you mentioned this. > > > > T: The reason I tried to get your keen mind to turn towrad citta- sankhara is because someone had asked me a question that I could not answer. > > > > Question: Sanna and vedana are two cetasikas in the overall 52. Why are sanna and vedana chosen to be called citta-sankhara( mental fabrications or formations), not the other 50 (which are grouped into the sankharakkhandha). The explanation we have seen in MN44 is not clear <" Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." >, > > because the other 50 cetasikas are "tied up with the mind" too. > ------ > N: I quote from whta I wrote before in my series on anapanasati, about the second tetrad: > > As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and > tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental > formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: > > The Vis. adds that this tetrad deals with the contemplation of feeling. > ***** (snipped) > Nina. 48343 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 456 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapams or sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 7. sotapams In these individuals the following javana cittas may arise. a) 7 akusala cittas ( 4 ditthi and 1 vicikicchaa do not arise) b) 8 mahaakusala cittas ( kaama kusala javana ) c) 5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaana javana ) d) 4 aruupakusala cittas ( 4 aruupa jhaana javana ) e) 1 sotapatti phala citta -- 25 cittas Other 30 javana cittas cannot arise in these individuals. 8. new sotapams or sotapatti maggatthaana puggala The only javana citta that can arise in these individuals is sotapatti magga citta. So other 54 javana cittas cannot arise in them. If arise these individuals are no more new sotapams. The potentials javana cittas that may arise are 1. sotapatti phala citta 2. sakadaagaami magga citta 3. sakadaagaami phala citta 4. anaagaami magga citta 5. anaagaami phala citta 6. arahatta magga citta 7. arahatta phala citta. But when these cittas arise these individuals are no more new sotapams or no more sotapatti maggatthaana puggala. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be valuable for all. 48344 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you again for a clear reply. > > The meditator is highly gifted, has accumulated great paññaa so that he can attain even arahatship. > > Thus even when the meditator is with the first tetrad, he develops > vipassana, including the enlightenment factors leading to arahatship. > Nina. Tep: Well said, Nina. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 30-07-2005 06:51 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > It is not clear how the meditator combines (brings together) the > various bodhipakkhiya dhammas with anupassana-nana during the > > > kayanupasana satipatthana (first tetrad) of the breathing meditation . > > > Recall that so far the meditator is still at the first vatthu > > >(long in-breaths and out-breaths) of the anapanasati bhavana. > your key points in the answer to my question are : > > > N: -- The anapanasati is incorporated into the mahaasatipatthaanasutta > > and that makes all the difference. > > -- As he develops insight also the factors of enlightenment, all of them, develop along with satipatthana. > > > > Tep: The above two key points fit very well with a highly-advanced > > meditator who has acquired skills in both anapanasati (all 4 tetrads) > > and satipatthana bhavana. How about the following scenario? > > Now he again goes through the breathing meditation and non- > > distracted mindfulness is quickly established, even when he is just at the first vatthu. Due to arising insight knowledges on the basis of well- balanced faculties, the factors of enlightenment start to come together. > -------- > N: As I see it, the meditator is already advanced in jhaana, he has the > masteries, that is, he can enter and emerge at any time. After emerging from jhana, he develops insight. > We read in the Visuddhimagga as to the first tetrad of the anapanasati > sutta: > > The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight > (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: > (snipped) 48345 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - You are a wise guy. H: > > Another way of looking at our compulsive reading & studying habits is > "feeding the beast". The thinking mind craves for concepts to juggle, > that's all it can do. But if the purpose of our effort is to see the > namas and rupas as they arise, change and cease, then reading a phone book is just as rewarding. Or not reading anything. > Tep: Dhamma reading (and listening/discussion) for learning and researching for a fact should be separated from contemplation (anupassana), I guess. Just like when your gas tank is near empty you'd stop by a gas station to fill her up. But when your tank is nearly full or full (depending on how much money you have to buy the gas), the filling is done and you are on the road again. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop, > (snipped) > > The following is not a criticism of what you just said, it is just an > observation that came to mind. > > "read something else". It is such a natural thing to say and do. > Reading has become a part of our life, totally, hasn't it? It hasn't > always been like that, being immersed in symbolic representations, but > these days for us a world without the written word would be totally > unimaginable. 48346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense nilovg Hi Chewsadhu, welcome. I did not see you before, are you new? op 29-07-2005 18:41 schreef chewsadhu op chewsadhu@...: > Pls help to explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense, > since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities. > > example: > If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do. > It is prompted citta arises in me. ---------- N: It is more complex than that. You speak about a situation, but in reality many, many cittas have arisen and passed away. The term prompted and unprompted tells us whether the citta is with hesitation, weak, sluggish, or without hesitation, spontaneous, strong. I repost what I have written in my Visuddhimagga study, Ch XIV. about kusala citta prompted or unprompted: The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. > *** The difference between the first type of kusala citta and the second type which is prompted can remind us that there are different degrees of accumulated sobhana cetasikas. People have different degrees of confidence in kusala, of generosity and of other qualities. We read in the Visuddhimagga that a person may give . This example indicates that there are different degrees of kusala and that these are conditioned by past accumulations. Nobody can direct the citta to be in this way or that way. Unprompted mahaakusala citta: ************ Vis.: ... he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc. Tiika: As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... *** There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one¹s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. *** Also cittas rooted in lobha or in dosa can be prompted or unprompted. The second type of lobha-muulacitta: Vis: When it is with consciousness that is sluggish and urged on, then it is the second kind. Tiika: As to the expression (with citta that is) sluggish, this means slow, not keen. Such citta occurs being urged on by oneself or by someone else, and thus he said, ³(with a citta that is) urged on². ***** --------- Ch: question: > (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'? ------ N: It can be by someone's words, but someone's accumulations are very powerful. ------- Ch: (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)? > (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)? ------ N: we cannot know these things, hard to pinpoint. ------- CH: (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the > mental > process which only happen in the manodvaravithi. > (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the > pancadvaravithi > are only arise with prompted citta. > (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the > Javana process > in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta. --------- N: In sense-door processes as well as in mind-door processes prompted or unprompted kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. As explained, it tells us something on the strength of citta. This depends on one's accumulated inclinations. More than on the object itself it depends on one's accumulated inclinations. That causes cittas to be so diverse. ------ Ch When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the > mind-door > process (manodvaravithi). -------- N: such as the Buddha's exhortations to be mindful, not to be neglectful. One person may react with hesitation another immediately, depending on his accumulated wisdom. Different cittas with different strength of confidence and understanding. Nina. 48347 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:28am Subject: Always New (Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (And Chewsadhu, and all) - In a message dated 7/30/05 11:18:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Chewsadhu, welcome. I did not see you before, are you new? ======================== You have my welcome as well, Chewsadhu! :-) Nina, I'm writing this because I picked up on your question "... are you new?", and the amusing thought occurred to me that regardless of to whomever or whatever that question is ever addressed, the correct answer is always "Yes!"!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48348 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:30am Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita and Joop : Please allow me to draw a reconciation to your bipolar discussion, if you will. Joop: > As I understand it: > > Thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' is indeed a wrong view! > Thinking 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' is a indeed also wrong view! > On the absolute level, yet naturally not as daily conventional speech... > Bhikkhu Samahita: > Again absolutely speaking: > Whether one deposits an entity: 'same being, same self, unchanging & identical' to any internal OR any external transient clusters of clinging, it remains equally false, since the main assumptions of stability and autonomy simply are untrue...!!! > Tep: To avoid such bipolar discussion points, we shoud adopt the following right view on any internal or external clusters of clinging (upadanakkhandha), conventionaly or absolutely speaking, that 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self '. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend Joop wrote: > (snipped) > : - ] 48349 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense htootintnaing Dear Sadhu, Good questions. Great! Please see below. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sadhu Chew wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: Pls explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense, since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities. example: If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do. It is prompted citta arises in me. question: (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer (1). No. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer (2). No. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer (3). No. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: note: (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the mental process which only happen in the manodvaravithi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not prompted by somebody. They are just examples. The essence is that how alert the consciousness is when it does the job. That is that. No one prompt any citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with prompted citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not prompted by sound. Javana cittas are determined by votthapana citta. If determining consciousness (votthappana citta) decide prompted consciousness to arise then all javana cittas will be prompted consciousness. If unprompted then all javana cittas will be unprompted consciousness. Sound does not determine javana. Votthapana citta determines javana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the Javana process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not prompted by mental object when in 5 sensing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the mind-door process (manodvaravithi). With Metta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Citta processes are very very fast. Between the arising of voice and the understanding of that there are trillions of cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48350 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 457 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapams or sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. new sotapams or sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala These indiduals may be human beings, kaama deva beings in 6 deva realms, ruupa deva or ruupa brahmas in 16 rupa brahma realms, and aruupa deva or aruupa brahma beings in 4 aruupa brahma realms. In these individuals all 55 javana cittas can arise depending on the conditions that favour. But in exact terms the possible javana cittas that arise in these tihetuka puthujana puggalas are a) 12 akusala cittas ( akusala javanas ) b) 8 mahaakusala cittas ( kaama kusala javanas ) c) 5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaana javanas ) d) 4 aruupakusala cittas( 4 aruupa jhaana javanas ) --- 29 javana cittas Other 26 javana cittas do not arise in them. The potential javana cittas that may arise in future are a) 8 mahaakiriya cittas ( if they become arahats ) b) 5 ruupakiriya cittas ( if they become arahats in ruupa jhaana ) c) 4 aruupakiriya cittas( if they become arahats in aruupa jhana ) d) 8 lokuttara cittas e) 1 hasituppaada citta ( if they become arahats and smile ) -- 26 javana cittas. But when 8 lokuttara cittas arise in these individuals they are no more puthujana puggala but ariya puggalas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48351 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:27am Subject: Nibbana htootintnaing Dear Friends in Dhamma, I do not think 'nibbana is 9th jhana'. Nibbana is not jhana. If nibbana is ninth level of jhaana then it seems like nibbana is a jhana. But nibbana is not jhana. But nirodha-samapatti or cessation-attainment is beyond 8th jhana. This does not mean it is at 9th level or it is 9th jhana. So it is wrong to say 9th jhana. Nibbana is beyond that. That is beyond jhana. Kaama, ruupa, aruupa are not beyond loka (world). So jhaana are not beyond loka (world). But nibbana is beyond loka. So it is called supramundane dhamma. As nibbana is beyond loka, it can be beyond kaama. It can well be beyond ruupa. It can well be beyond aruupa. This means that nibbana can be experienced beyond kaama door. Nibbana can be experienced beyond ruupa door. Nibbana can ber experienced beyond aruupa door. Again these mean that 1. magga naana can be attained through kaama citta. (without ruupa jhana and aruupa jhana) 2. magga naana can be attained through ruupa citta. (without kaama and aruupa jhana) 3. magga naana can be attained through aruupa citta. (without kaama and ruupa jhaana) The implication is like this. 1)Kaama.stop.magga arises. 2)Ruupa jhaana.stop.magga arises. 3)Aruupa jhaana.stop.magga arises. The first sample is sukkhavipassaka's way. The 2nd sample is ruupa-jhaanalaabhi's way. The 3rd sample is aruupa-jhaanalaabhi's way. Jhana may or may not be necessary. But samaadhi is always necessary in attainment of magga naana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48352 From: nina Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: only listening? nilovg Dear friends, At the moment I read to Lodewijk as our dinner reading a series of lectures of Kh. Sujin in Cambodia (Taking Refuge in the Triple Gem) which I translated from Thai. I just read about listening and I was thinking of Howard's reminder: only listening? < Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop paññå. If people are listening only superficially they are not really listening to the Dhamma. They may call listening what is not really listening, because what they hear goes in at one ear and out at the other; there is no understanding of what they heard. Listening to the Dhamma is actually paying careful attention to what one hears and pondering over it with understanding. It is most important to remember that listening also means applying what one hears. It is not enough to have only theoretical understanding of what one hears, but one should also practise what the Buddha taught. Butsawong : The venerable bhikkhu says that he has listened already but that he now wants to really practise the Dhamma. However, he has many different tasks to accomplish with regard to the Order of monks, and because of his work his citta is distracted. He has no opportunity to sit quietly, alone. He has listened to the Dhamma and he has understood what he has heard, but he has no leisure time. He wonders whether there is only one way of practice or more than one, depending on one¹s way of life.... S. : The venerable bhikkhu said that he had listened to the Dhamma already, but, our listening is never enough. Even the arahats in the Buddha¹s time continued to listen to the Dhamma. The Buddha taught the Dhamma for fortyfive years with the purpose to help people to understand the Truth. We may have listened for a long time, but if we do not come to understand the characteristics of the realities which are appearing, we have not listened long enough yet. It would be better, instead of wanting to practise, to begin to understand the characteristics of the realities appearing at this very moment. We may wish to have no more defilements, but can defilements be eradicated at all if we do not listen to the Dhamma and understand as they are the characteristics of the realities which are appearing? As regards the venerable bhikkhu¹s remark about his lack of free time for the practice, not only monks but also laymen have many tasks to fulfill; also many laymen complain that they have no leisure time for the practice. However, the practice of the Dhamma does not depend on the amount of free time one has. Just now, while we are sitting here, there are realities appearing. There are seeing and hearing, and these are real. Also when we are doing our work there are realities appearing. We cannot select a particular time for the understanding of this or that reality. It is necessary to develop paññå which understands the realities which are appearing in daily life, until there is complete understanding of them. In this way ignorance, doubt and wrong view of self can be eradicated. > Nina. 48353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. nilovg Hi Tep, I still have to do Kundaliya Co, part 2, but meanhwile I think I lost you question about it. Perhaps you could repeat it afterwards? Nina. op 30-07-2005 16:16 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: na - > > Thank you again for a clear reply. 48354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: Always New (Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense) nilovg Hi Howard, a good one to think over. Nina. op 30-07-2005 17:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Nina, I'm writing this because I picked up on your question "... are you > new?", and the amusing thought occurred to me that regardless of to whomever > or whatever that question is ever addressed, the correct answer is always > "Yes!"!! ;-)) 48355 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] only listening? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/30/05 2:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, At the moment I read to Lodewijk as our dinner reading a series of lectures of Kh. Sujin in Cambodia (Taking Refuge in the Triple Gem) which I translated from Thai. I just read about listening and I was thinking of Howard's reminder: only listening? < Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop paññå. If people are listening only superficially they are not really listening to the Dhamma. They may call listening what is not really listening, because what they hear goes in at one ear and out at the other; there is no understanding of what they heard. Listening to the Dhamma is actually paying careful attention to what one hears and pondering over it with understanding. It is most important to remember that listening also means applying what one hears. It is not enough to have only theoretical understanding of what one hears, but one should also practise what the Buddha taught. Butsawong : The venerable bhikkhu says that he has listened already but that he now wants to really practise the Dhamma. However, he has many different tasks to accomplish with regard to the Order of monks, and because of his work his citta is distracted. He has no opportunity to sit quietly, alone. He has listened to the Dhamma and he has understood what he has heard, but he has no leisure time. He wonders whether there is only one way of practice or more than one, depending on one¹s way of life.... S. : The venerable bhikkhu said that he had listened to the Dhamma already, but, our listening is never enough. Even the arahats in the Buddha¹s time continued to listen to the Dhamma. The Buddha taught the Dhamma for fortyfive years with the purpose to help people to understand the Truth. We may have listened for a long time, but if we do not come to understand the characteristics of the realities which are appearing, we have not listened long enough yet. It would be better, instead of wanting to practise, to begin to understand the characteristics of the realities appearing at this very moment. We may wish to have no more defilements, but can defilements be eradicated at all if we do not listen to the Dhamma and understand as they are the characteristics of the realities which are appearing? As regards the venerable bhikkhu¹s remark about his lack of free time for the practice, not only monks but also laymen have many tasks to fulfill; also many laymen complain that they have no leisure time for the practice. However, the practice of the Dhamma does not depend on the amount of free time one has. Just now, while we are sitting here, there are realities appearing. There are seeing and hearing, and these are real. Also when we are doing our work there are realities appearing. We cannot select a particular time for the understanding of this or that reality. It is necessary to develop paññå which understands the realities which are appearing in daily life, until there is complete understanding of them. In this way ignorance, doubt and wrong view of self can be eradicated. > Nina. =========================== Nina, there is much in the foregoing that I like a great deal. However, I consider the following to be a false, wildly exaggerated claim: _______________________________________ Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop paññå. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not troubled by "essential", but I am greatly troubled by "there is no other method to develop paññå." Unless the meaning is not what it seems, I consider this to be blatantly false. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48356 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:31am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 10 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 9 stages of body foulness. There are 14 contemplations on body and there are 261 sub- contemplations on body. 207 contemplations have been discussed. 1) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2) 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4) 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5) 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 1' 7) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 2' 8) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 3' 9) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 4' 10) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 5' 11) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 6' 12) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 7' 13) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 8' 14) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 9' ------- 261 contemplations on body One way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'breathing'. Another way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'posture'. Another way is to contemplate on 'detail movement'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body part'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body element'. There are 9 more further ways to contemplate on 'body'. They are contemplations on 'body foulness'. There are 9 stages of 'body foulness'. 1) stage 1 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'body' as if a corpse of one-day-old or two-day-old or three- day-old , which has been discarded at cemetery. The corpse is swollen or blackened or putrified according to its age (1 day or 2 days or 3 days). This body (my body) will follow the natural course like this corpse, this body will become a corpse like this, this body will not overcome this stage of foulness seen in this corpse. This stage one will have happened in others' body. This stage will have happened in both 'this body' and 'others' body'.(3 contemplations_self, others, self& others). Extra 3 contemplations are contemplation or origination, on dissolution, on both origination & dissolution. 2) stage 2 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, on which crows have bitten, hawks have bitten, vultures have bitten, ravens have bitten, jackals have bitten, tigers have bitten, leopards have bitten,foxes have bitten, worms have eaten. This body will follow this course, will become the corpse like this, will not overcome this stage of body foulness. ( 3 contemplations ). And then 3 extra contemplations as in stage 1. 3) stage 3 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, with residual flesh, smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. There are 6 contemplations as in other 'foulness meditation' of stage 1 and stage 2. 4) stage 4 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, without any flesh but smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 5) stage 5 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, without any flesh, without any blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 6) stage 6 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, unbounded loose bones scatter here and there as hand bone, foot bone, ankle bone, leg bone, thigh bone, hip bone, rib bone, back bone, shoulder bone, neck bone, jaw bone, tooth bone, skull bone. 7) stage 7 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, in which scattered bones become white and dry. 8) stage 8 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become a year old and heap up. 9) stage 9 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become rotten, crushed, moth-eaten and become bone dust. In each of these 9 stages of foulness there are 6 contemplations and so there are 54 contemplations on the body foulness. Kaayaanupassanas are a) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' b) 15 contemplations on 'posture' c) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' d) 99 contemplations on 'body part' e) 15 contemplations on 'body element' f) 54 contemplations on 'body foulness' of 9 stages ------ 261 contemplations on body All these contemplations are directed at ruupa or naama and they all are satipatthaana. Contemplations on body foulness is called aadinavanupassana. Satipatthana is to abolish the idea of 'beautifulness', 'permanence', 'satisfactoriness', 'self'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48357 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) mlnease Hi Sadhu (Your Name?), All the below is correct as I understand it, except that the prompter can be "I" as well as "another". Both still concepts (or designations). So the citta and its attendant cetasikas are dhammas even though the prompter is not. Nice to meet you. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sadhu Chew" To: Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > Pls explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense, > since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities. > > example: > If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do. > It is prompted citta arises in me. > > question: > (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'? > (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)? > (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)? > > note: > (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the mental > process which only happen in the manodvaravithi. > (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the > pancadvaravithi are only arise with prompted citta. > (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the Javana > process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta. > > When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the > mind-door process (manodvaravithi). 48358 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Ven. Samahita and Joop : > > Please allow me to draw a reconciation to your bipolar discussion, if > you will. ... > Tep: To avoid such bipolar discussion points, we shoud adopt the > following right view on any internal or external clusters of clinging > (upadanakkhandha), conventionaly or absolutely speaking, that 'This > is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self '. > > Sincerely, > > Tep > Dear Tep Before I try to answer the Bhante (the suffering being is disappeared in his answer to me), I do not know what your proposal is Do you propose no to talk about "This is his, this is not he, this is not his self" ? Metta Joop 48359 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 dacostacharles Hi Nina, Are you German? Living in Germany ? (I am keying on the name Van Gorkom). ------------------------------- Nina, when you stated, "I avoid the word incarnation or reincarnation. Seems to suggest one person traveling from life to life. And also: there are lives as ghosts or lives in heavenly planes. No womb." I am lead to believe that you believe in the life-continuum (some define it as a thread of beings linked by karma as their cause; for example, the line of Dhali Lamas; some also explain it as the rebirth-consciousness of one being becoming that of another being). I am just trying to confirm if you accept/believe in "reincarnation" even if it is not one person (one unchanging person), and your concern is karma from one being to the next. Oh, BTW the Womb is metaphorical for becoming a being (of any type). --------------------------------------------------------- When you said, "Insight does not know past kammas. That is the field of Buddhas." I can see that I need to explain what I meant by "... a goal of wisdom (insight into karmic events)." By insight, I mean: 1.. Clear or deep perception of a situation 2.. A feeling of understanding 3.. The clear (and often sudden) understanding of a complex situation 4.. Grasping the inner nature of things intuitively Now if you are talking about the "karma / rebirth-consciousness connection, we are talking about different definitions, or levels, of karma. I am isolating it to the linking of events (i.e., "cause & effect"). At this level we have subtle, simple (gross), and complex linking. This linking is as simple as me accidentally firing a gun causing a bullet to enter the body of a being and resulting in the death of that being. A complex linking could be presented as the following. The family of the being desire my death (revenge) so they hire someone to kill me. And, after realizing the effects of my action, I begin to go crazy, thus causing other negative karma. Here we have several events, all caused by one event, that could result in my death. When I said: "... can realize and break the cycle of gross karmas." You replied with the following: "Perhaps you mean: abstaining from very bad deeds? But what about the past, it has happened already. Only an arahat can. And even he, before passing away, may still receive the most painful results." This tells me that you don't understand what I mean by "break the cycle of ... karmas." This can be illustrated as follows: I go to prison for life, thus saving me from the killer on the street but not my crazy mind. And, hearing of the case, a monk and psychologist come to my aid. I learn of the Dharma and my insanity clears (thus breaking a cycle of self-punishment and ...). This does not mean I will no longer reap the effects of my actions (e.g., leave prison), it means I am better prepared to deal with them, and that they will not drive me to cause more .... ------------------------- I was also taught that "insight into pass lives" is a level that could be obtained by almost any high level monk, or practitioner, that works at developing it. So this could be why we differ here "?" -------------------- I have to express that Luck and good fortune (the pleasant worldly conditions) are not always the results of one's kamma (unless you consider birth as the cause). Even the Buddha said stuff just happens (this is one of the corner stone beliefs that separated him from the Hindus). ----------- I think you are beginning to see my approach (i.e., your last two paragraphs). I am after a very practical Dharma; one that helps me here and now, in this life time. One that teaches me how to live in samsara. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 25 July, 2005 15:20 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 Hi Charles D, op 24-07-2005 13:34 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > I have to ask, when you speak of "... kammas of so many past lives also > produce results today ..." are you translating past lives as past incarnation > into a mother's womb? ------ N: I avoid the word incarnation or reincarnation. Seems to suggest one person traveling from life to life. And also: there are lives as ghosts or lives in heavenly planes. No womb. ------ <....> 48360 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintentional action! dacostacharles Dear Bhikkhu Samahita I have herd this before. However I was taught that Karma in Buddhism was more about the relationship between cause and effect. In Hinduism Karma has more to do with accumulating reward and punishment. IMHO the group of sutras that relate to what you stated below are: 1. from an early period in Buddhism (the Buddha's teachings did change/evolve over time); and/or 2. they are dealing with the reward and punishment aspect of karma instead of the cause and effect aspect of karma. In the "cause and effect aspect of karma" the story below would be explained thus: Cause: Dead insects on the floor of a blind arahat's hut Effect: Bhikkhus and the Buddha assumes/believes the blind arahat has killed the insects Cause: the man was an arahat Effect: Bhikkhus and the Buddha assumes the killing was unintentional And Future results: The insects will no longer be able to reproduce or any other normal function "... No Kamma is created by Unintentional Action! It is Kiriya == Neutral or functional or non-accumulating!" is only true if you view karma as accumulating reward and punishment. However, this would imply a self, and ... (to those non-selfers ... :-). And, to say "Such action does not condition any future action or result!" would be wrong if you look at it from the prospective of the insects. CharlesD PS: I am thinking of dropping the idea of a "cause and effect aspect of karma" alone and going back to the "accumulating reward and punishment aspect of karma." Because it is easer and clearer to just say "the effect(s)" (in the case of the first) and it limits the definition of karma in a productive way (in the case of the second). ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 25 July, 2005 10:06 Subject: [dsg] Unintentional action! Dear Charles DaCosta wrote: >kamma is produced whether an act is intentional or unintentional. Buddha once was called to a blind arahat's hut, where some dead insects on the floor showed that this arahat had killed them while walking and forth... The other bhikkhus asked him how an arahat could kill? He answered that the blind arahat had not intentionally killed any insect, as he was blind and could thus not see them... Therefore: No Kamma is created by Unintentional Action! It is Kiriya == Neutral or functional or non-accumulating! Such action does not condition any future action or result! <.....> 48361 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Vism.XIV,177 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 177. Herein, (xlix) 'steadiness of consciousness' is weak concentration (viii) consisting in mere steadiness in occurrence.70 (1) It is without wish to cure (vigataa cikicchaa), thus it is 'uncertainty' (vicikicchaa). It has the characteristic of doubt. Its function is to waver. It is manifested as indecisiveness, or it is manifested as taking various sides. Its proximate cause is unwise attention. It should be regarded as obstructive of theory (see Ch. XVII,52). The rest are as already described. ---------------------------- Note 70. ' "Mere steadiness in occurrence" is mere presence for a moment. That it is only "mere steadiness in occurrence" owing to the mere condition for the steadiness of the mind (ceto) is because of lack of real steadiness due to absence of decidedness (nicchaya), and it is incapable of being a condition for such steadiness in continuity (see par. 188) as the steadiness of consciousness stated thus: "like the steadiness of a flame sheltered from a draught" (Ch. XIV,139)' (Pm.495). 48362 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness egberdina Hi Ken, Like Nina, I thought this was a very good post. It set internal bells going off left, right and centre. I have taken the liberty of editing so as to leave a core that I wish to make some comments on :-) > -------------------------- > N: > It is so strange, one never knows beforehand. Now they take > those kids out all day and at evening they tumble dead tired into > bed, too tired to do the fighting and shouting just above my head > when I am at the computer. One never knows what the seeing and > hearing of the next moment will be. > > I heard this morning on MP3: there is seeing and hearing the whole > day, but we are forgetful. > --------------------------- > > In days gone by, I would have reacted to that by "directing" my > attention to seeing or hearing. But it is better to understand > forgetfulness than to misunderstand conditionality. :-) > > ------------------ > N: > Dhamma all around. Seeing and hearing are never lacking. > ------------------- > > Yes, even when there are concepts there are really only dhammas. > > ------------------------------ > N: > Today at lunch in a restaurant Lodewijk and I had a Dhamma talk. > Lodewijk said again that he understands much better why it is > important to understand seeing and hearing, otherwise one cannot know > the truth. > ------------------------------- > > Even though we understand there are only dhammas, our understanding > can be pretty weak, can't it? The more we know about seeing and > hearing the better we understand there are only dhammas. > === Perhaps it is an old hobby horse of mine, but I wanted to find out if you and I see the following in the same way. The main thesis of your post is that there are only dhammas. Which is a great reminder at any time of day. It may well be just a particular quirk in my thinking (my thinking being one of my gravest afflictions) but I see "dhamma" as a sort-of duality. It is one coin with two sides. When I read the word dhamma, I tend to focus on the experiential side. A dhamma is an experience. There is only experience, whether through body-door or through mind door. This is all there is. But when focusing on this one side of the coin only, it is possible to loose sight of what makes us humans different from other sentient beings. And that is an understanding of conditionality. And you do mention conditionality in your post, so we may well share the same outlook. Not only is a dhamma an experience, but a dhamma is also all those things that bring that experience about. That is the other side of the coin. Like a moth, we can experience heat and light. Unlike a self-imolating moth, we can understand conditionality, and we can avoid the fire. And therein lies the benefit of a human birth. We can come to understand the real nature of our existence, and leave that behind if that is considered desirable. (rest assured I am not talking with any residue of depression or craving for non-existence). So a dhamma is not only its experience, it IS also its cycle of (co)dependent origination. When speaking about there only being dhammas, are we on the same wavelength? Kind Regards Herman 48363 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] only listening? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - Thank you both for the interesting discussion. > Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential > condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop > paññå. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am not troubled by "essential", but I am greatly troubled by "there is > no other method to develop paññå." Unless the meaning is not what it seems, I > consider this to be blatantly false. > > With metta, > Howard > Tep: Howard, I understand why you are troubled by the emphatic proclamation made by A. Sujin : "there is no other method to develop panna." It sound almost like a statement made by religious leaders to their disciples. But, let's look closely to what she means by "listening". -- Her kind of listening is not the ordinary listening by most people where "what they hear goes in at one ear and out at the other". -- Her listening is accompanied by careful attention (yonisomanisikara?) and firm fixing (intent) on what is being heard so as to "understand the characteristics of the realities which are appearing". -- Her listening is accompanied by practising "what the Buddha taught". -- This intent listening is the same as that of all noble disciples had in the past when the Buddha was alive. So who can deny A. Sujin's proclamation? I cannot. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/30/05 2:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > Dear friends, > At the moment I read to Lodewijk as our dinner reading a series of lectures > of Kh. Sujin in Cambodia (Taking Refuge in the Triple Gem) which I > translated from Thai. I just read about listening and I was thinking of > Howard's reminder: only listening? > 48364 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - A question in my message # 48332 is like a suggestion rather than asking. How about the following scenario? > Now he again goes through the breathing meditation and non- > distracted mindfulness is quickly established, even when he is just at > the first vatthu. Due to arising insight knowledges on the basis of well- > balanced faculties, the factors of enlightenment start to come together. You already replied to that. -------- Tep : I had no question in message 48311 (section 206 -210, BT). And in my message #48287 (related suttas to the Kundliya sutta) I commented the following : "It is clear that Sila must be developed as the basis for successful Satipatthana bhavana". Besides all the above I cannot think of any question I might have asked that you have not yet answered. Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I still have to do Kundaliya Co, part 2, but meanhwile I think I lost you > question about it. Perhaps you could repeat it afterwards? > Nina. > op 30-07-2005 16:16 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > na - > > > > Thank you again for a clear reply. 48365 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Will a sun rise tomorrow? to Ven Samahita egberdina Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, Please accept my gratitude for your regular postings. A high point of each day, to be sure !! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend Joop wrote: > > As I understand it: > > Thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' is indeed a wrong view! > Thinking 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' is a indeed also wrong view! > On the absolute level, yet naturally not as daily conventional speech... > > Again absolutely speaking: > Whether one deposits an entity: 'same being, same self, unchanging & identical' > to any internal OR any external transient clusters of clinging, it remains equally > false, since the main assumptions of stability and autonomy simply are untrue...!!! > It is a wonderfully liberating thought to throw the concept of sameness out the ever-changing window :-). I wonder if it is possible to go too far with this idea, though. For while the world of phenomena is awash in transience, and nothing is itself for even a moment, are not all phenomena bound by conditionality that is unchanging, fixed, permanent? There is absolutely nothing steady to cling to in the world of sights and sounds, the world of multiplicity of forms, but yet one who is mindful can manifest the world of singleness, again and again and again and again, without fail. And then the thought "is this the same nimitta, the same one-pointedness, the same rapture, the same joy, the same equanimity" does not arise. All beings can be assured that by conditionality that is unchanging, fixed, permanent, there is a path to Nibbana. Sorry for preaching :-) Kind Regards Herman It may not be the same sun rising over the same earth, but round and round it goes regardlessly :-) 48366 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] only listening? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/30/05 7:12:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Nina and Howard - Thank you both for the interesting discussion. > Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential > condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop > paññå. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am not troubled by "essential", but I am greatly troubled by "there is > no other method to develop paññå." Unless the meaning is not what it seems, I > consider this to be blatantly false. > > With metta, > Howard > Tep: Howard, I understand why you are troubled by the emphatic proclamation made by A. Sujin : "there is no other method to develop panna." It sound almost like a statement made by religious leaders to their disciples. But, let's look closely to what she means by "listening". -- Her kind of listening is not the ordinary listening by most people where "what they hear goes in at one ear and out at the other". -- Her listening is accompanied by careful attention (yonisomanisikara?) and firm fixing (intent) on what is being heard so as to "understand the characteristics of the realities which are appearing". -- Her listening is accompanied by practising "what the Buddha taught". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Actually, I *missed* the part about practice! Thank you for pointing it out. And I apologoze for my sloppiness in reading! Indeed, there is the following: "Listening to the Dhamma is actually paying careful attention to what one hears and pondering over it with understanding. It is most important to remember that listening also means applying what one hears. It is not enough to have only theoretical understanding of what one hears, but one should also practise what the Buddha taught." Indeed, if "listening" to the Dhamma means listening (or reading) and pondering it AND putting into practice what one reads, then that is indeed the sort of "listening" that is all that is required for wisdom to arise. I stand corrected, and I am very pleased that Khun Sujin considers practice to be an integral part of "listening". That hasn't been the impression tat I got from some of her students on DSG, but, as I say, I stand corrected. --------------------------------------------- -- This intent listening is the same as that of all noble disciples had in the past when the Buddha was alive. So who can deny A. Sujin's proclamation? I cannot. Warm regards, Tep =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48367 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Ven. Samahita0 _ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Ven. Samahita and Joop : > > > > Please allow me to draw a reconciation to your bipolar discussion, > if you will. > ... > > Tep: To avoid such bipolar discussion points, we shoud adopt the > > following right view on any internal or external clusters of > clinging (upadanakkhandha), conventionaly or absolutely speaking, that 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self '. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Tep > > > > Dear Tep > > Before I try to answer the Bhante (the suffering being is > disappeared in his answer to me), I do not know what your proposal is > Do you propose no to talk about "This is his, this is not he, this is > not his self" ? > > Metta > > Joop You told Bhikkhu Samahita that you found no sutta evidence that the thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' or 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' was a wrong view. Then he talked about a false thinking on the "clusters of clinging" that seemed to be a rebut to your proposal. So I just wanted to remind you of the view based on the Anattalakkhana Sutta, not trying to propose anything. Please just ignore it, if you feel it is not relevant to your ongoing theme. Regards, Tep ======= 48368 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] only listening? buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - I am pleased to tell you why I always find a discussion with you so refreshing. It is because you are so open to different perspectives and not clinging to your own. The ability to let go is amazing. Thank you very much for being a role model here. Sincerely yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Nina) - > (snipped) > Howard: > Actually, I *missed* the part about practice! Thank you for pointing it > out. And I apologoze for my sloppiness in reading! Indeed, there is the following: > "Listening to the Dhamma is actually paying careful attention to what one hears and pondering over it with understanding. It is most important to remember that listening also means applying what one hears. It is not enough to have only theoretical understanding of what one hears, but one should also practise what the Buddha taught." > Indeed, if "listening" to the Dhamma means listening (or reading) and pondering it AND putting into practice what one reads, then that is indeed the sort of "listening" that is all that is required for wisdom to arise. I stand corrected, and I am very pleased that Khun Sujin considers practice to be an integral part of "listening". That hasn't been the impression tat I got from some of her students on DSG, but, as I say, I stand corrected. > --------------------------------------------- 48369 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: Will a sun rise tomorrow? to Ven Samahita buddhistmedi... Hi, Herbert - Have you heard of the 'punnakiriyavatthu' ? There are 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu that are resultant of kamavacara- kusala. 1. Giving (dana) 2. Virtues (sila) 3. Mental development (bhavana) 4. Reverence (apaciti) paying respect to the elders 5. Rendering services(veyyavacca) 6. Transference of merit (pattanuppadana) 7. Rejoicing in others' merit (abbhanumodana) 8. Expounding the Teaching (desana) 9. Listening to the Teaching (savana) 10. Rectification of views ditthujukamma. So you see, it is a punna to expound the teaching and be open-minded to other people's preaching too. Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, > > Please accept my gratitude for your regular postings. A high point of > each day, to be sure !! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita > wrote: > > Dear friend Joop wrote: > > > > As I understand it: > > > > Thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' is indeed > a wrong view! > > Thinking 'This is his, this he is, this is his self' is a indeed > also wrong view! > > On the absolute level, yet naturally not as daily conventional speech... > > > > Again absolutely speaking: > > Whether one deposits an entity: 'same being, same self, unchanging & > identical' to any internal OR any external transient clusters of clinging, it remains equally > > false, since the main assumptions of stability and autonomy simply > are untrue...!!! > > > > It is a wonderfully liberating thought to throw the concept of > sameness out the ever-changing window :-). > > I wonder if it is possible to go too far with this idea, though. For > while the world of phenomena is awash in transience, and nothing is > itself for even a moment, are not all phenomena bound by > conditionality that is unchanging, fixed, permanent? > 48370 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:10pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,177 UTin p553 nichiconn Of these, conscious duration is weak concentration lasting just a moment. {2} {2} Pavatth.t.thiti is explained by the Tiikaa as kha.na.t.thiti, like the duration of the flame of a lamp in the wind. The Abhidammaavataara.tiikaa, on the other hand, explains it as the duration of a process of consciousness which does not attain to factors of the Path and so on, and which therefore is void of decision (pavatti.t.thiti matto ti cetaso pavatti sa'nkhaato thiti matto no magga'ngaadibhaava.m gacchati, adhimokkhavirahato ti attho).} That which is devoid of the cure of thought is perplexity. It has shifting of the mind as characteristic, trembling as function, {3} indecision or uncertain grasp as manifestation, unwise attention as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as doing harm to the attainments. {3} The Tiikaa points out that whereas distraction proceeds, causing the mind to tremble over one object, perplexity causes the mind to tremble over many objects.} The remaining states are of the kinds described. 48371 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: Transcendent(AL) seisen_au Hi Nina, Connie and All, Connie thanks for the Kathavatthu passage, but I had trouble following most of it. The commentary didn't offer much help either. The passage seems to be an attempt by the Theras to refute the Andhakas view `That the Exalted Buddha's ordinary speech was supramundane (lokuttara)'. To my understanding the only type of `speech' that could be considered lokuttara would be Right Speech of the Noble Path at moments of magga and phala? Though I'm not sure if magga and phala Right Speech could be considered a type of dana? Steve. > [8] A. - But you may with one golden wand point out both a heap of > paddy and a heap of gold. So the Exalted One, with his supramundane > habitual speech, habitually spoke about both mundane and supramundane > doctrine. > Th. - It is no less possible to point out both paddy and gold with a > wand of castor-oil wood. So the Exalted One, with his mundane habitual > speech, habitually spoke about both mundane and supramundane matter. > [9] Now some of you {1-So the Comy.} say that the habitual speech of > the Exalted One the Buddha was mundane when speaking to one so conversing, > supramundane when speaking to one so conversing. But this implies that his > words impinged on mundane hearing when he spoke of worldly things, and on > the supramundane hearing when he spoke of supramundane things; also that > his hearers understood with their mundane intelligence in the former case; > and with their supramundane intelligence in the latter; also that average > persons understood in the former case, disciples in the latter. To which > you do not agree. > > [10] A. - It is wrong then, according to you, to say that the Exalted > Buddha's customary speech was mundane when he spoke of mundane matters, > supramundane when he spoke of supramundane matters. But did he not use > both kinds of speech? You assent. Then surely what you maintain is > untenable. > [11] Again, your proposition involves this further admission: that the > speech of anyone becomes that of which he is speaking - that if you speak > of Path, your word becomes Path; similarly of what is not Path, of Fruit, > of Nibbaana, of the Conditioned, of matter, of mind and their opposites. > > << PTS2001(p136)>>> 48372 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:06am Subject: Mutual Appreciation bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Egbert: >Please accept my gratitude for your regular postings. >A high point of each day, to be sure !! Most warmly appreciated. I also 'enjoy' lots of abuse! So such mutual appreciation is also 'my' daily high point! Thanx2U2 indeed ;-) Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu SamÄ?hita, Sri Lanka. 48373 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintentional action! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Charles DaCosta: Really, no vipaka (future fruits) is created if no intention is involved! It was the insects resulting kamma to be killed just there and then! So had their! prior evil intentions shaped their future destiny ... The Arahat was not 'involved', but just a passive 'instrument' in the mighty selfless net of cause, conditioning and effect ... : - ] 48374 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Dalai Lama Daily Advice.....107.. balancing_life Hi Sarah & EveryOne & EveryBody, This message is in response to a message by me, to a message that was posted by a Buddhist member & was responded to, by the owner who is also a Buddhist, but who welcomes multi-religious messages also and everyday, in this website, i will post my motivational & inspirational staff. I hope you don't mind, as it has to do something with Buddhism, also, although it is a bit off-topic, at the beginning, but i am a very detailed person & i have to explain everything, or else people reading this would not get the whole picture. With LovingKindNess :) AliceInStarkRealitiesOfBuddhismLand --- In United_by_Hearts@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: Hi Tara, Randy & All, That is so very true. I have been away on a 3 days holiday, to the Cameron Highlands here in Malaysia and have been traumatised by an accident. You see, this very small town, is where all our Malaysians go to de- stress, esp, those living in our capital city of Kuala Lumpur & they will go on a Friday evening & go back to their own hometowns, Sunday afternoons, after checking out of the hotels at 12 noon. There are mini-markets, but no supermarkets/departmental stores nor shopping malls, but there are tourist shopping shops, as it is a vegetable farming land and most of the Lipton, Boh Tea, Blue Valley, Cameron tea comes from here, in the tea plantations & our own local strawberries are grown here. The vegetables, Strawberries, big beautiful multi-coloured Roses as well as other flowers like Carnations, Daisys & other flowering & non- flowering plants or fauna which can't be found elsewhere in other states (as they could only grow here in the cool climate as compared to our very hot climate of 30 to 33 degrees centrigrade here in my hometown, Penang), will be sold locally or transported to other major states and even our neighbouring country, Singapore, does most of the import of vegetables, from this Highlands. During weekdays, from Mondays to Thursdays, there would be virtually few traffic in the townships, although the roads are quite winding & steep, as it is situated in the hills. Only the town will come alive, starting from Fridays to Sundays & then there will be lots of tourist buses, private vans or cars & there will be a special night market literally called "Pasar Malam", where vegetables, flowers, strawberries, souvenirs, cheaply & where there are stalls selling Sweaters or PullOvers or WindBreakers, as it gets very cold here at nite, and most of the time, both my husband & me will be shivering, if it rains. FYI, air-conditioners are virtually non-existent here, as the air here is very fresh & cool all year round, and so far there are none installed in the hotels, that i have been staying, for several occassions. There are lots of tourists from other countries, like recently, i was at a famous Buddhist Temple there called "Sam Poh Tong", and the local people there, told me that lots of Singaporeans and other states and countries come here, esp only to pray or pay respect to Lord Buddha. The Buddhism there is Mahayana, and every afternoon at 4.15 pm, i will go there to chant along with the monks in Mandarin together with the other lady diciples all wearing black, , till 5.00 pm & my husband loves to go there as the chanting is very soothing & calming to his nerves, although he is much more into Christianity and sometimes goes to Church. In fact, i accompanied him there to the temple, as i am the only one who goes there to chant and whilst i am chanting, he will be sitting in front of the chanting hall, where the idol of Lord Buddha is, meditating...with others, his friends or family, he is unable to do so...he's the one who needed de-stressing, so badly. Although in the first place, we went there when my niece passed away, and i was so depressed, that even the highest ordained monk noticed it, whilst i was just praying with my hands, whilst they were chanting and that he personally gave me a Buddhist amulet to wear, eventhough i was a stranger & a first timer there. Subsequently, during further visits, he told us, , that he was a very rich/thriving businessman who goes out drinking almost daily and he gave it all up (everything...his family, his home, his money) to be a monk, more than 10 years ago...he has since moved on, from the temple...don't know where he is now. I have met Americans, Europeans, French, Czechs, Blangadeshis, Arabians and others, where they will snap photos and even one Catholic couple, even prayed with "Joss Sticks". There was even an American young couple who were Buddhists, and they came in and bought some Buddhist amulets from this temple & when told that the temple does not have enough change for his purchase, they donated the balance, to the temple. So sorry for my rambling, but the point of this story, is that whilst we were on the way to another place in the town, we were in a huge jam, that has never ever happened before, as the roads are very narrow & there are only 2 cars lane. When we got down to see what is the reason of the jam, we saw just an overturned small lorry or you would call truck in American English, lying on its right hand side on the other side of the incoming road or on the wrong lane, filled with bags of cement & the Fire Engine was trying to lift the lorry/truck to its original position without success. In Malaysia, we are right handed drivers and if i am not mistaken, in the USA, you all are left handed drivers? Anyway, this poor guy died & after when they took the body out of the lorry, the Fire Engine moved to one side & we were able to drive past the accident scene and i saw his body, covered with white cloth on the ambulance's stretcher...the only thing i could see was that he was wearing black shiny shoes...strange for a person who is lorry driver, as most of lorry drivers would wear canvas shoes. So, it hit me, like a Tornado, that nothing in life is permanent, and this guy was happily transporting whatever he was carrying as perhaps a daily ritual to him, and he died, b'cos he was just negotiating a turn which was quite wide, but unfortunately, the cement became unstable, which caused the whole lorry to turn on its side and he was trapped to death. Then i got to thinking about this poor Chinese guy, who never knew that that day was his final one and i think he never got the chance to leave any messages nor to say goodbye, to his loved ones or family & how his family, fellow truck drivers & friends, would miss him. Accidents do occur almost daily in Penang & accidental deaths are just a statistical figure in KL...but in Cameron Highlands? And to think that if we had not stopped at the highest/tallest hotel in that region, Hotel Equatorial, to read some newspapers, and just walking around to admire the scenery and the fountains and the beautiful roses and plants, perhaps we would have been involved in that accident? We even met a fellow Penangnite there, who was an orthopaedic specialist working in the Adventist Hospital & is now retired, together with his wife, as they were about to check into the hotel & told us although they were celebrating one of their relatives birthday in the Heritage hotels , but that they preffered to stay here in the Equatorial. We used to stay there, as you can see the beautiful scenery of the tea plantations & vegetable farms from the highest floor of the hotel rooms of the balcony that we were staying...but the room rates were very expensive, eventhough we had special & corporate rates, so we opted for the half the rates at the other hotels, as we are out the whole day, just driving around with the windows down, enjoying the fresh air. Guess our time has not yet come...but it will, eventually, sooner or later & i hope i will pass away, before my loved ones. Peace & Namaste to all, :) AliceInPeaceful&SerenityLand ... 48375 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:49am Subject: Advanced Right View ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Middle Way of Wise Moderate Ontology: The Blessed Buddha on speculation on existence: This world, Kaccana, is generally chained up by involvement, clinging & attachment to various views! But one of right view neither becomes engaged nor cling to such rigid commitment, clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, nor underlying tendency! He does not take a stand about 'My Self' nor has he any perplexity or doubt about what arises is only Suffering arising, & what ceases is only Suffering ceasing! His assurance about this, is independent of others... In this way, Kaccana, is there advanced right view !!! 'All exists': Kaccana, this is the one extreme.... 'All does not exist'; this is the second extreme !!! Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Thus-Come-Thus-Gone One teaches Dhamma from this Middle: Conditioned by ignorance, mental construction comes into being. Conditioned by construction, consciousness comes into being. Conditioned by consciousness, name-&-form comes into being. Conditioned by name-&-form, the-6-senses come into being. Conditioned by the-6-senses, contact comes into being. Conditioned by contact, feeling comes into being. Conditioned by feeling, craving comes into being. Conditioned by craving, clinging comes into being. Conditioned by clinging, becoming comes into being. Conditioned by becoming, birth comes into being. Conditioned by birth, ageing, decay, & death comes into being. Such is the arising of this whole mass of suffering ... !!! Note: Neither 'Substantialism' nor 'Illusionism' but 'Realism'... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XII (15); [II 17] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-015.html Full text here! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! ... 48376 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 0:00am Subject: The Buddhist-Email-List Sutta ;-) upasaka_howard I thought that the following is of general value, and most especially to internet discussants: Sutta Nipata IV.5 Paramatthaka Sutta On Views Translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu From The Discourse Collection: Selected Texts from the Sutta Nipata (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views." -- vv. 796-803 With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48377 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:27am Subject: four persons matheesha333 Tatiyasamàdhisuttaü - The third on concentration. 010.04. Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a certain person is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind not a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. Another is the gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and not the gainer of internal appeasement of mind. Bhikkhus, a certain person is neither a gainer of internal appeasement of mind nor a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. Bhikkhus, another is the gainer of internal appeasement of mind and a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and not the gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching, should approach that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and should ask him- Friend, how are determinations to be known, how are they to be thoroughly grasped, how should they be wisely seen? He would explain it to him, as he had known and seen them. Friend, determinations should be known thus, thoroughly grassped thus and they should be wisely seen thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and not a gainer of internal appeasement of mind should approach that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and ask him- Friend, how should the mind be settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind brought to a single point be made to concentrate. He would explain it to him, as he had known it and seen it. Friend, the mind should be settled thus, quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to concentrate thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and a gainer of internal appeasement of mind. Here, bhikkhus, that person who is not a gainer of internal appeasement of mind nor a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching should approach that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and also a gainer of higher wisdom through reflection of the Teaching and should ask him- Friend, how should the mind be settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind be brought to a single point and made to concentrate, how are determinations to be known, how are they to be thoroughly grasped, how should they be wisely seen? He would explain it to him, as he had known it and seen it Friend, the mind should be settled thus, quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to concentrate thus. Determinations should be known thus, thoroughly grasped thus and they should be wisely seen thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching, established in those meritorious thoughts should further exert for the destruction of desires Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm 48378 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! jwromeijn Hallo Tep and Ven. Samahita I think to see what you mean, Tep. I rereaded my discussion with Sarah, you and others about six weeks ago, and this is a repetition of it. Perhaps my reaction is a little bit primitive: when I read again and again in DSG "anatta, anatta, anatta", my reaction is "and social, and social, and social". More exact: I know that's the right view that I am five heaps but it's not correct to treat another human being as only five heaps of clinging, as a IT, a thing". That has nothing to do with being "autonomically controllable" of that person. Till now I have not received an intelligent answer to this paradox, I reject the answer 'Joop you still have a little bit a false view'. I tried in June the solution of my paradox by expanding the Teaching of the Buddha of the Middle Way to this theme (my 46587 and your 46666). But that theory was also not a hundred procent success. So now I have two small problems with which I had to live and can live: - The paradox that on the same time a suffering human being is not an 'it' (because metta and karuna can not be given to a 'it') AND that being is 'only five heaps'. - The contradiction that I want to be a Tharavadin but most Theravadins don't have an antenna for this paradox, for them the anatta-view is enough As said, I can live with this little problem, I can even live in DSG with it because the solution is simple: accept some Mahayana views in my thinking (and accept that a Theravada monk will not follow me in this regard). Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Ven. Samahita0 _ > .............. > You told Bhikkhu Samahita that you found no sutta evidence that the > thinking 'This is yours, this you are, this is your self' or 'This is his, this > he is, this is his self' was a wrong view. Then he talked about a false > thinking on the "clusters of clinging" that seemed to be a rebut to your > proposal. So I just wanted to remind you of the view based on the > Anattalakkhana Sutta, not trying to propose anything. Please just > ignore it, if you feel it is not relevant to your ongoing theme. > > Regards, > > Tep 48379 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:03am Subject: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. Text: "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. **** Co: as to bodily misconduct, there are three. As to verbal misconduct, there are four. As to mental misconduct there are three. ------- N: These are the ten akusala kamma pathas of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying slandering, rude speech, foolish babble, covetousness, illwill, evil views. --------- Co: The Co explains that good conduct should be understood as the opposite of ways of misconduct. It explains that by restraint through body and speech the Paitmokha siila is observed. As to three siilas through the mind, this was mentioned in the four purities of siila, catu parisuddhi siila. ------ N: The ³Visuddhimagga², in the Chapter on Virtue, Síla, gives the following fourfold classification of purity of síla (pårisuddhi síla): the restraint of ³Påìimokkha² including 227 rules of discipline for the monk, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya saóvara síla), the purity of livelihood (åjíva pårisuddhi síla), the use of the four requisites of robe, dwelling, food and medicines, that is purified by reflection (paccaya sannissita síla). The last three purities of siila are observed through the mind. ------- Text: It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness. ------ Text: "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the four establishments of mindfulness developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way that the four establishments of mindfulness are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment. ------- Co: explains that the three kinds of good conduct are the foundation for satipatthana that is combined with lokuttara (lokuttara missakaa). Satipatthaana, the previous part (pubba-bhaagaa) is the foundation for the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhangas). N: These are : mindfulness, investigation of Dhamma (paññaa), energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and calm. -------- Text:"And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the seven factors of enlightenment developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation? Here, Ku.n.daliya, a bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release …. He develops the enlightenment factor of equanimity, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way that the seven factors of enlightenment are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil true knowledge and liberation." ------ Co: explains that the seven factors of enlightenment are the foundation for true knowledge and liberation (vijjaa vimutti). These are supramundane, lokuttara. ------- Text: When this was said, the wanderer Ku.n.daliya said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, and to the Dhamma, ad to the Bhikkhu Sa.ngha. From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." **** Nina. 48380 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] only listening? nilovg Hi Howard, Tep explained to you that listening is more than just passive listening. I could add more. Listening is development. See below. But I certainly find the subject worth while to dwell more on it. op 30-07-2005 20:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Sujin: Listening to the Dhamma, listening intently, is an essential > condition for the arising of paññå, there is no other method to develop > paññå. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am not troubled by "essential", but I am greatly troubled by "there is > no other method to develop paññå." Unless the meaning is not what it seems, I > consider this to be blatantly false. ----------- N: When I was reading this, Lodewijk and I said; that is strongly said. But we have to go on considering this. There is more to it. One has to apply what one hears. Instead of repeating again: develop the perfections, I should give some concrete examples. You perform daana in daily life, for example, you are a good listener, you listen to relatives and friends when they have problems and you give advice. That is a way of giving, but we can also call this siila, it is good practice through body and speech. When there is an insect in trouble, you carry it outside, you will go out of your way to do this. This is siila. But, we usually do not realize that it is the kusala citta that is doing these things, not "I". We may not expressively think: I am doing this, but there is a sense of self. There are also some hidden motives: we want to be a good person. This may arise in between the kusala cittas. This is very natural, very common. But when we listen intently to the Dhamma we learn, we come to understand more about the different cittas. Such listening can permeate our actions and speech, helping us to understand more about ourselves. We learn that whatever we do is just dhamma, conditioned dhamma. Bhavanaa, mental development, includes samatha and vipassanaa. Studying the teachings, considering them is a way of samatha: recollection of the Dhamma is one of the subjects of samatha. So is considering the excellent qualities of the Buddha. Samatha and vipassana can go together. I think that there cannot be any fixed rule for the way a person applies the Dhamma in his life. We should remember the Sutta, S.N. II, 155. on Elements, where we read that the same elements attract each other. Different groups of monks were walking together. Those with great wisdom were walking together, those with strict observance, and those who knew Vinaya by heart were walking together, etc. But whatever we do, we need listening, so that we have more understanding of dhamma as dhamma. For me personally it is helpful to understand more details about citta and cetasikas, to understand how many sobhana cetasikas come to assist kusala citta. I do not try to pinpoint the different cetasikas, but it helps to see conditions. But what is helpful for me may not be so for others. But all of us need listening to True Dhamma. Listening is never enough. Nina. 48381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remark Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 206 - 210. nilovg Hi Tep, op 31-07-2005 01:32 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > And > in my message #48287 (related suttas to the Kundliya sutta) I > commented the following : "It is clear that Sila must be developed as > the basis for successful Satipatthana bhavana". -------- N: Yes. I found it very useful the way this Co to the Kundaliyasutta explained how wide siila is, it includes many aspects as you will see. Thus, when we read: siila, samaadhi and paññaa, we should know: what is included in these three aspects. Nina. 48382 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense lbidd2 Hi Chewsadhu, I would like to add a few points to Nina's and Htoo's explanations. To review: a prompt is a verbal or bodily intimation rupa. However, whether a consciousness is prompted or not also depends on accumulations. For example, if you are driving a car you may be prompted by a certain kind of red light to stop. Depending on your accumulations the desire that leads to stopping may or may not arise. Also aversion (dosa) toward the stop signal may arise. This aversion is not prompted even though it has the same prompt as object. The abhidhamma does not give stop signs or the written word as examples of intimation rupas but I think they can be included. Not all intimations are prompts. There is considerable debate at dsg whether certain intimations in a sutta are prompts or not. This is sometimes framed as "prescriptive or descriptive". It can be argued that all prompts assume a self view. If so, can sati be prompted? It can further be argued that all intimations assume a self view. If so, is there a value in listening to a sutta? Is arguing that there is a value in listening to a sutta a prompt to listen to a sutta? Larry 48383 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina- Thank you for presenting the Co along with the Text and your explanations. >the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara sila), >the purity of livelihood (íaajiva paarisuddhi sila), >the use of the four requisites of robe, dwelling, food and medicines, that is purified by reflection (paccaya sannissita sila). >The last three purities of siila are observed through the mind. >Text: It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments > of mindfulness. Tep: The Co. does not give a clue how the four establishments of mindfulness are fulfilled by the three kinds of good conduct. It is clear by the text how the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated all by themselves. But it sounds as if the perfection of the three sila automatically "fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness" without having to do satipatthana bhavana as given in DN 22. What is your thought on this? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear friends, > > Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. > Text: "And how, Ku.n.daliya, are the three kinds of good conduct > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of > mindfulness? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having abandoned bodily > misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. > **** > Co: as to bodily misconduct, there are three. As to verbal misconduct, there are four. As to mental misconduct there are three. > ------- > N: These are the ten akusala kamma pathas of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying slandering, rude speech, foolish babble, covetousness, illwill, evil views. > --------- > Co: The Co explains that good conduct should be understood as the opposite of ways of misconduct. > It explains that by restraint through body and speech the Paitmokha siila is observed. As to three siilas through the mind, this was mentioned in the four purities of siila, catu parisuddhi siila. > ------ > N: > The ³Visuddhimagga², in the Chapter on Virtue, Síla, gives the following fourfold classification of purity of síla (pårisuddhi síla): > the restraint of ³Påìimokkha² including 227 rules of discipline for the monk, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya saóvara síla), > the purity of livelihood (åjíva pårisuddhi síla), the use of the four requisites of robe, dwelling, food and medicines, that is purified by reflection (paccaya sannissita síla). > > The last three purities of siila are observed through the mind. > ------- > Text: It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness. > ------ 48384 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 nidive Hi Christine, > Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis > on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised > some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only > possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? > > "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. > Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) > > "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's > refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a > noble steed." (380) Of course, it is possible to control your bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions. You do that everyday, don't you? Why delude yourself? "NO CONTROL" is one extreme view. "A SELF THAT CONTROLS" is another extreme view. There is a middle ground to be sought after. Regards, Swee Boon 48385 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! buddhistmedi... Dear Joop - I am interested to work with you so we may find an "intelligent answer" to your paradox. However, we must perform the first step which is redefining of your paradox, so that it is crytally clear to both of us. If it is not very clear then it'd become a stumbling block -- so we must remove it first. Joop: More exact: I know that's the right view that I am five heaps but it's not correct to treat another human being as only five heaps of clinging, as a IT, a thing". That has nothing to do with being "autonomically controllable" of that person. Joop: So now I have two small problems with which I had to live and can live: - The paradox that on the same time a suffering human being is not an 'it' (because metta and karuna can not be given to a 'it') AND that being is 'only five heaps'. - The contradiction that I want to be a Tharavadin but most Theravadins don't have an antenna for this paradox, for them the anatta-view is enough. Tep: In order to make sure that we undertand your paradox the same way (not going in two different directions) I need to ask a few questions as follows. (1) I think we say that everybody is a walking-talking five aggregates that are anicca and dukkha. But we have not yet agreed on the anatta part yet, right? (2) Also, am I correct to say that you see and agree that the five "heaps", or "clusters", are objects of clinging that lead to dukkha, according to the Dependent Origination? Tep: Further, it is not necessary at all to think of any person, who suddenly becomes five heaps or four basic elements under the vipassana microscope, as IT or "thing" that is not a person. Why? Because when we contemplate a person with vipassana, we are seeing that person as rupa and nama -- viewing him/her with a different perspective that break down the being into components and dhatus. It is like when you view anything at the molecular level, you'll only see atoms and empty space -- you no longer see a computer, a golden college ring, your awards on the shelf, your own kids, etc. , you'll see electrons and protons and subparticles and empty spaces. The two views are two realities that exist at two different levels. The atoms and empty spaces are not human, but they constitute human -- both human beings and the sub-atomic substances exist. Don't let your views confuse you. Tep: The Buddha was tremendously wise; he came up with the middle way that transcended the extreme views directly to Nibbana. How? By adopting the anatta view, without getting confused by the extremes, he found the solution. The anatta principle leads to no-clinging in what we see as humans and sensuous things - because we see nothing but the Dhamma and 'sabba dhamma anatta'; the result of this right view is total release. He avoided the trouble(i.e. ignorance -- the not knowing that leads to clinging and dukkha) caused by extreme views and reached the goal -- Nibbana. Let's continue until we can eliminate the paradox -- which is based on a wrong view (a sankhara). Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Tep and Ven. Samahita > > I think to see what you mean, Tep. I rereaded my discussion with > Sarah, you and others about six weeks ago, and this is a repetition > of it. > Perhaps my reaction is a little bit primitive: when I read again and > again in DSG "anatta, anatta, anatta", my reaction is "and social, > and social, and social". > More exact: I know that's the right view that I am five heaps but > it's not correct to treat another human being as only five heaps of > clinging, as a IT, a thing". > That has nothing to do with being "autonomically controllable" of > that person. > > Till now I have not received an intelligent answer to this paradox, I > reject the answer 'Joop you still have a little bit a false view'. > > I tried in June the solution of my paradox by expanding the Teaching > of the Buddha of the Middle Way to this theme (my 46587 and your > 46666). But that theory was also not a hundred procent success. > > So now I have two small problems with which I had to live and can > live: > - The paradox that on the same time a suffering human being is not > an 'it' (because metta and karuna can not be given to a 'it') AND > that being is 'only five heaps'. > - The contradiction that I want to be a Tharavadin but most > Theravadins don't have an antenna for this paradox, for them the > anatta-view is enough > > As said, I can live with this little problem, I can even live in DSG > with it because the solution is simple: accept some Mahayana views in my thinking (and accept that a Theravada monk will not follow me in > this regard). > > Metta > > Joop > > 48386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddhist-Email-List Sutta ;-) nilovg Hi Howard, I have the translation by K.R. Norman. Last sentence: In the Buddhist Proper Names I read with reference to this sutta the story about the blind who 'see' an elephant'. Each one sees it in his own way. The Mahaaniddesa has a long comment on this sutta. It is only in Thai, not in English. It comments on several of the sutta nipata. There are many treasures in this work. The Mahaaniddesa speaks about several kinds of wrong views, such as eternalism and annihilation view. The arahat has no conceit, he has reached the other shore, nibbaana. Nina. op 31-07-2005 13:00 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by > them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views." >S.N. -- vv. 796-803 48387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense nilovg Hi Larry, I just like to say something about bodily and verbal intimation. Those are rupas produced by citta. They condition the expression of our intentions by gestures and speech. But they cannot be called prompts. Nina. op 31-07-2005 17:08 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > a prompt is a verbal or bodily intimation rupa. 48388 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. nilovg Hi Tep, op 31-07-2005 17:51 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > >> Text: It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are > developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments >> of mindfulness. > > Tep: The Co. does not give a clue how the four establishments of > mindfulness are fulfilled by the three kinds of good conduct. > It is clear by the text how the three kinds of good conduct are > developed and cultivated all by themselves. But it sounds as if the > perfection of the three sila automatically "fulfils the four establishments > of mindfulness" without having to do satipatthana bhavana as given in > DN 22. What is your thought on this? ------- N:I repeat the text of the Co: Here we see Howard's spiral clearly demonstrated. Nina. 48389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 nilovg Hi Swee Boon, I am glad to see you back after a long time! Nina. op 31-07-2005 18:12 schreef nidive op nidive@...: > Of course, it is possible to control your bodily actions, verbal > actions and mental actions. You do that everyday, don't you? Why > delude yourself? > > "NO CONTROL" is one extreme view. "A SELF THAT CONTROLS" is another > extreme view. There is a middle ground to be sought after. 48390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 nilovg Hi Charles D, I just touch on a few points. op 30-07-2005 19:57 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Are you German? Living in Germany ? (I am keying on the name Van Gorkom). --- N: No, Dutch (like Joop), living in the Hague. > ------------------------------- > Nina, when you stated, "I avoid the word incarnation or reincarnation. Seems > to suggest one person traveling from life to life. And also: there are lives > as ghosts or lives in heavenly planes. No womb." > > I am lead to believe that you believe in the life-continuum (some define it as > a thread of beings linked by karma as their cause; for example, the line of > Dhali Lamas; some also explain it as the rebirth-consciousness of one being > becoming that of another being). ---- N: the last one. The dying-consciousness falls away and it is succeeded without interval by the rebirth-consciousness. Then there is another being but there is connection with the past, since all accumulations of the past, all experiences and kammas are accumulated and carried on to the present. The newborn being is neither the same nor another. -- > ------------------------- > > I was also taught that "insight into past lives" is a level that could be > obtained by almost any high level monk, or practitioner, that works at > developing it. So this could be why we differ here "?" > -------------------- N: By the development of jhanas and supranatural powers (diving into the earth etc.) one can also learn to see the passing away and rebirth of other beings. But only the Buddha could go to past lives to an extent nobody else ever could. ------ Ch: I have to express that Luck and good fortune (the pleasant worldly conditions) > are not always the results of one's kamma (unless you consider birth as the > cause). Even the Buddha said stuff just happens (this is one of the corner > stone beliefs that separated him from the Hindus). > ----------- N: Nothing happens without the appropriate conditions, but we mostly are ignorant of these. The Buddha perfectly knew all conditions. Results of kamma: rebirth-consciousness, experiences through the senses such as seeing or hearing. What we denote by gain and praise are events, but when we are more precise these consist of pleasant sense impressions. ------ Ch: I think you are beginning to see my approach (i.e., your last two paragraphs). > I am after a very practical Dharma; one that helps me here and now, in this > life time. One that teaches me how to live in samsara. ----- N: I think that is the right purpose. Right understanding helps most, also for our social life. We understand that people who misbehave do so because they have been conditioned that way. Our reactions can be with more metta and karuna when we have understanding of our own cittas and of others' cittas. Nina. 48391 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 phamdluan2000 Dear everybody, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Christine, > Being familiar with the Useful Posts on Anatta, with the emphasis > on "no control", I found these two verses in the Dhammapada raised > some questions in my mind. They seem to indicate it is not only > possible, but desirable, to 'control' your own self. Any comments? > > "By self do you censure yourself. By self do you examine yourself. > Self-guarded and mindful, O bhikkhu, you will live happily." (379) > > "Self, indeed, is the protector of self. Self, indeed, is one's > refuge. Control, therefore, your own self as a merchant controls a > noble steed." (380) Of course, it is possible to control your bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions. You do that everyday, don't you? Why delude yourself? "NO CONTROL" is one extreme view. "A SELF THAT CONTROLS" is another extreme view. There is a middle ground to be sought after. Regards, Swee Boon KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. To counter the other extreme view "A SELF THAT CONTROLS", the Buddha taught the theory of CONDITIONED GENESIS. So the Middle-Path consists of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS together put in the same basket. But the problem is: WILL, like any other thought, is CONDITIONED. Therefore, the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! So how to conciliate the two ideas of FREE-WILL and CONDITIONED GENESIS which seem to be mutually exclusive? Thanks in advance for all explanation. Metta, KKT 48392 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:08am Subject: Free google gmail invitation! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Google Gmail is Giantly Great: The free Google Gmail Offers: > 2.5 Gigabyte storage !!! No advertisements... Highly efficient Spam filtering! Free, multiple & filterable Forwarding. Free POP and SMTP mail client access. IMHO the very best free email currently. One needs to be invited to it though... If anyone is interested in a free gmail account, then send an email to me: bhikkhu.samahita@... including these words: samahita & gmail, then I will mail you an invitation asap... : - ] bhikkhu samahita, sri lanka 48393 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for answering my question : >Tep: ....But it sounds as if the perfection of the three sila >automatically "fulfils the four establishments of mindfulness" >without having to do satipatthana bhavana as given in DN 22. >What is your thought on this? To summarize your answer to the question, I think it says that both sila and sati are interdependently developed together: i.e. developed indriya samvara sila leads to developed sati, and vice versa. Therefore, when sila is near perfect, then sati is also near fulfilment. Finally, when sila is perfected, satipatthana is fulfilled at the same time without practicing according to the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Is my understanding without a flaw? BTW, what is Howard's spiral? It sounds like a huge tornado. Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > ***** > N: We see here (and also in many other texts) that siila includes > mindfulness of the objects appearing through the six doors. change from wrong conduct to right conduct by contemplating the objects with mindfulness. When a desirable object enters the avenue of the eye-door, he develops insight that has visible object as its object. This is wholesome conduct through the mind. > > Here we see Howard's spiral clearly demonstrated. > Nina. 48394 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddhist-Email-List Sutta ;-) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/05 2:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I have the translation by K.R. Norman. Last sentence: In the Buddhist Proper Names I read with reference to this sutta the story about the blind who 'see' an elephant'. Each one sees it in his own way. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a very famous story, and very appropriate to bring up in this context. Both the Hindus and the Buddhists seem to take credit for it! ;-) ------------------------------------------ The Mahaaniddesa has a long comment on this sutta. It is only in Thai, not in English. It comments on several of the sutta nipata. There are many treasures in this work. The Mahaaniddesa speaks about several kinds of wrong views, such as eternalism and annihilation view. The arahat has no conceit, he has reached the other shore, nibbaana. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That makes me remember, Nina. When I was a young child I loved the seashore, and my earliest meditation in this lifetime was done there: I sat very still with eyes closed and thinking in abeyance, and I listened to the waves lapping at the shore, heard the sea gulls, heard the laughter of children in the water - all blending into a current of sound heard only as sound, and the smells of salt water and suntan lotion, and the warmth of the sun on my body, all there - all part of a marvelous stillness, so lovely ... a hint, perhaps, of the immeasurably grander far shore that beckons. --------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== Thanks for this, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48395 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:44pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for your kind words. > > You are a wise guy. > > H: > > > Another way of looking at our compulsive reading & studying habits is > > "feeding the beast". The thinking mind craves for concepts to juggle, > > that's all it can do. But if the purpose of our effort is to see the > > namas and rupas as they arise, change and cease, then reading a > phone book is just as rewarding. Or not reading anything. > > > > Tep: Dhamma reading (and listening/discussion) for learning and > researching for a fact should be separated from contemplation > (anupassana), I guess. Just like when your gas tank is near empty > you'd stop by a gas station to fill her up. But when your tank is nearly full > or full (depending on how much money you have to buy the gas), the > filling is done and you are on the road again. > Yes, this is a good example. The tank is full when it overflows. How to know when you have done enough Dhamma reading for a while? If everytime you open your lid texts come pouring out :-) Kind Regards Herman 48396 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense lbidd2 Nina: "Hi Larry, I just like to say something about bodily and verbal intimation. Those are rupas produced by citta. They condition the expression of our intentions by gestures and speech. But they cannot be called prompts. Nina. op 31-07-2005 17:08 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: a prompt is a verbal or bodily intimation rupa." Hi Nina, Why not? If someone says, "Nina, wash your face", isn't that a prompt; isn't it an intimation? Please give an example of a prompt. Larry 48397 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:58pm Subject: D.O. - RobK gazita2002 Dear Rob, Salayatana pacccaya phasso - dependent on the sixfold base arises contact. Is this contact the cetasika Phassa? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 48398 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1. egberdina Hi everyone, I am sorry if the following point has already been made. If so, I would sincerely appreciate a reference to the post(s) that addressed it. This Sutta is in the form of question and answer. Q] What things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X1... A] ...X2.... , when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X1... Q] What things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X2... and so forth. Until we come to "having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. and having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. What is striking is that there is now no further question "How does a bhikkhu not long for it?" or "How is a bhikkhu not dismayed by it?" Is the ability of self-restraint a given? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Kundaliyasutta and Commentary. > > Text: "Ku.n.daliya, the Tathaagata lives for the benefit and fruit of > true > knowledge and liberation." [note 68] > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated > fulfil true knowledge and liberation?" > "The seven factors of enlightenment, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and > cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?" > "The four establishments of mindfulness, Ku.n.daliya, when > developed > and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" > "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" > "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed > and > cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > "And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties > developed > and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? > Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a > bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate > lust for it. > *********** > Co: the attachment that is worldly, aamisa. > ------ > Text: His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly > well composed and well liberated. > ------- > N: kaaya stands for naama-kaaya, the mental body, namely the cetasikas. > The Co states: his mental body and citta are inwardly steady on the object. > Steady because of the kammathaana. Well liberated: because of the > kammathaana. > N: my remark: the kammathaana, meditation subject can be that of samatha or > of vipassanaa. > --------- > Text: But having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed > by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. > His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed > and well liberated. > ------ > Co: he is not shocked by that form [N:visible object] and the citta is not > overcome by defilements, not overcome by unpleasant feeling nor by dosa. > ------ > Text: "Further, Ku.n.daliya, having heard an agreeable sound with the > ear > … having smelt an agreeable odour with the nose … having > savoured an > agreeable taste with the tongue … having felt an agreeable mental > phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become > excited by it, or generate lust for it. But having cognised a > disagreeable mental phenomenon with the mind, he is not dismayed by > it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady > and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. > "When Ku.n.daliya, after he has seen a form with the eye, a > bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well > composed and well liberated in regard to both agreeable and > disagreeable forms; when, after he has heard a sound with the ear > … > smelt an odour with the nose … savoured a taste with the tongue > … > felt a tactile object with the body … cognised a mental > phenomenon with the mind, a bhikkhu's body is steady and his mind is steady, > inwardly well composed and well liberated in regard to both > agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena, then his restraint of > the sense faculties has been developed and cultivated in such a way > that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. > ------- > Co. explains that there are eighteen kinds of akusala, namely the akusala > that arises in the six doorway processes that are expressed through body and > speech and are dwelt on by the mind. > It explains that when a pleasant object is experienced at first through the > eyedoor and lobha arises but there is no action or speech yet, then there is > wrong conduct through the mind. When someone speaks with lobha, saying, > Œthis is attractive and desirable¹, then there is wrong conduct through > speech. When he takes that pleasant thing with his hand, then there is wrong > conduct through the body. And it is the same with regard to the other > sense-doors and the mind-door. > > N: The Co then gives examples of musical instruments that are the basis of > sound experienced through the eardoor, a flower that is the basis of odour > experienced through the nosedoor, fish or meat that is the basis of flavour > experienced through the tonguedoor, a robe that is the basis of tangible > object experienced through the bodydoor, concepts such as butter, oil or > honey that are experienced through the mind-door. > The Co. states that in short there are three kinds of wrong conduct: in the > six door processes there are wrong conduct through body, speech and mind. > > The Co. explains about wholesome conduct of the bhikkhu. There is a change > from wrong conduct to right conduct by contemplating the objects with > mindfulness. When a desirable object enters the avenue of the eye-door, he > develops insight that has visible object as its object. This is wholesome > conduct through the mind. > When he speaks with a citta that is accompanied by insight wisdom, saying, > Œdhammas are subject to decay¹, this is wholesome conduct through speech. > When he does not take up a thing that is not allowed to be touched [N: > anaamasana, according to Vinaya] there is wholesome bodily conduct. And it > is the same with regard to the other doorways. > There are eighteen kinds of wholesome conduct according to the method of > teaching in detail. And according to the method of teaching in short: there > are with regard to the six doors the restraint of the body that is wholesome > bodily conduct, the restraint of speech that is wholesome conduct through > speech and the restraint of the mind, that is wholesome mental conduct. > It should be understood that the restraint of these faculties (indriya) will > lead to the fulfilment of the three kinds of wholesome conduct. To that > extent it he spoke of the restraint of the faculties which is siila that has > been observed. > **** > Nina. 48399 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 upasaka_howard Hi, KKT - In a message dated 7/31/05 5:05:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@... writes: KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. ==================== Please, where did he teach that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)