48800 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father nilovg Hi Tep, Htoo gave you an explanation of ultimate realities and conventional realities. Perhaps I can add something. I hope you will not fight attachment to your daughter, which is perfectly natural. Kh Sujin explained to us time and again to live our life naturally. We should not feel ashamed of any attachment, but start to understand it as a conditioned reality. There are conditions for it and thus it arises. The Buddha emphasized all the time: comprehension, clear comprehension. Thus, instead of suppression we can develop understanding. We should come to understand our accumulations as they naturally arise. It is also a kind of relief that we do not have to force ourselves to a style of life that is not natural to us. An example is a lay person who forces himself to behave like a monk. BTW I wanted to tell you and Larry that your feedback on Visuddhimagga is extremely helpful to me. That is a great thing of Internet. Without it one would study all by oneself and miss out many things. Your straight questions are helping me to clarify things for myself. Nina. op 14-08-2005 16:14 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Dear Htoo - > > Thank you for conditioning the suta-maya-panna in me: "Balanced > view will help you (be) happy", i.e. finding a middle path that avoids the > two extremes. 48801 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Noosa -- Visit to Sunshine Beach nilovg Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris and other friends who sent Ecards. I had much pleasure reading them, they gave me a lively impression of your discussions and your surroundings. You covered many topics, and being present would even have been better. many thanks, Nina. op 14-08-2005 11:21 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...:> > Yesterday's discussion was followed by another equally stimulating and > pleasant one, this time at KenH's spacious home. 48802 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. onco111 Dear Nina, Thank-you for the reference. I do have the book. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Dan, > thank you for your kind mail. Yes, I know your approach is the same > unprejudiced way as Phil. Not rejecting, not parrotting. > 52 cetasikas, I can refer to Nyanaponika Abhidhamma studies who explains the > open list very well and refers to sutta examples. If you need a summary, I > try later on, but now I am kept very busy by Visuddhimagga. Or do you have > the book? > Nina. > > > op 14-08-2005 08:46 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > I'm tempted to ask you if you can help > > me understand where the exact 52 count came from 48803 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:42am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Hi James, You ask, "What is the difference between 'rejecting' and 'laying aside'?" Another question: "What is the difference between 'dosa' and 'detachment'?" With appreciation, Dan 48804 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Nina, An interesting implication of this is, when we are investigating with pleasant feeling a kusala object such as a pretty girl, beautiful music, delicious food, etc., this investigating consciousness is the same as a javana citta unique to an arahant except for an arahant it is repeated 7 times, because of javana, is more energetic because no viriya in our investigation, and can have any kind of object. Both consciousnesses produce smiles. Larry 48805 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong Views of a Father mlnease Hi Tep, I haven't generated any offspring myself and am probably not entitled to an opinion. Anyway I wouldn't presume to advise anyone as to how to think rightly. Unfortunately I don't think this is a matter of choice... I'm sure you're familiar with the Piyajaatikasutta, Majjhima Nikaaya (87) II, Raja-vagga, which is clear on this topic. I don't think that the dearness of beings is any indication of wrong view in the abhidhamma sense, though,--that is, I think attachment to beings can arise without the factor of wrong view per se. Not certain about this though. It does seem to me that whether attention to this or any other object is wise or unwise will determine whether subsequent thinking is wholesome or unwholesome, don't you think? And the nature of the attention will depend on having heard and considered the Dhamma (or not), I think, more than on anything else. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:48 AM Subject: [dsg] Wrong Views of a Father > Suddenly I realize that the attachment to her as my daughter was a > wrong view, an extreme view caused by the desire that the little kid I > used to know may remain the same (forever). But trying to think "my > daughter does not exist", in order to avoid sadness of being parted > from her, is another wrong view, another extreme view. So how should I > think rightly? 48806 From: nina Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:20am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, This was our evening reading: Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike - Thank you, Mike for mentioning MN 87. I had not seen it before. The Buddha: 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.' [MN 87, Piyajatika Sutta: From One Who Is Dear ] Tep: It is an example of why the pacakkhanadha are dukkha. <"In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." DN 22> ------------------------------ Mike: I don't think that the dearness of beings is any indication of wrong view in the abhidhamma sense, though,--that is, I think attachment to beings can arise without the factor of wrong view per se. Not certain about this though. Tep: Even when the attachment is caused by the desire that is associated with the vipallasa-ditthi that "my daughter" may stay near forever? Mike: It does seem to me that whether attention to this or any other object is wise or unwise will determine whether subsequent thinking is wholesome or unwholesome, don't you think? And the nature of the attention will depend on having heard and considered the Dhamma (or not), I think, more than on anything else. Tep: Yes, I think so too -- appropriate attention always conditions kusala dhammas to arise. But I am not sure I see how attention might be involved in this case. It is nice that we have a dhamma discussion like this, Mike. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I haven't generated any offspring myself and am probably not entitled to an opinion. Anyway I wouldn't presume to advise anyone as to how to think rightly. Unfortunately I don't think this is a matter of choice... > > I'm sure you're familiar with the Piyajaatikasutta, Majjhima Nikaaya (87) II, Raja-vagga, which is clear on this topic. I don't think that the > dearness of beings is any indication of wrong view in the abhidhamma sense, though,--that is, I think attachment to beings can arise without the factor of wrong view per se. Not certain about this though. > > It does seem to me that whether attention to this or any other object is > wise or unwise will determine whether subsequent thinking is wholesome or unwholesome, don't you think? And the nature of the attention will depend on having heard and considered the Dhamma (or not), I think, more than on anything else. > > mike > 48808 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Larry) - Nina: Perhaps I can add something. I hope you will not fight attachment to your daughter, which is perfectly natural. Kh Sujin explained to us time and again to live our life naturally. We should not feel ashamed of any attachment, but start to understand it as a conditioned reality. Tep: What you have added is very meaningful, Nina. Thanks to Khun Sujin for her penetrating observation. Yes, right understanding of sankhata dhamma is really helpful. N: Thus, instead of suppression we can develop understanding. T: Yes, you're right. N: BTW I wanted to tell you and Larry that your feedback on Visuddhimagga is extremely helpful to me. T: I'll participate more, Nina. The Visuddhimagga is one of the favorite books on my shelf. But it is also one of my most difficult books to read. Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Htoo gave you an explanation of ultimate realities and conventional > realities. Perhaps I can add something. 48809 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 0:56pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Larry) - Your neat presentation (Vism XIV, 183) is very concentrated. It is not an easy reading! I have a few questions realted to the mind-averting function and ahetuka citta. Question 1: I think I understand that the ahetuka mano-dhatu 70 and the two mano-vinnana-dhatu 71 & 72 play the important avajjana function during the normal daily life. But I am not clear how this adverting function operates during samatha meditation (say, in the 1st jhana). Question 2 : Does the following paragraph make sense to you? I translated it from Thai source, but it may very well contain a number of errors. "A magga-nana cannot occur in ahetuka cittas. The Abhidhammattha- Sanghaha explains that beings who are born ahetuka are without kiriya- javana- and appana-javana-cittas, they cannot develop the mind to attain kamavacara-vipaka cittas with knowledge(nana)." Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183. > > Intro. > In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with kiriyacittas, inoperative > cittas that are neither cause nor result. (snipped) > > There is a natural order in the seasons, the plant life, kamma and produces result and also in the sequence of the functions of citta. It is the natural order of citta, citta niyaama, that they arise in a certain order in the process of cittas. Each citta performs its own function and it needs exactly the proper cetasikas that assist it in performing its function. Energy has to accompany the mind-door adverting- consciousness just to assist it in performing its function at the right time. The Buddha discovered all phenomena and their conditions. > > ******* > Nina. 48810 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:09pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Htoo. matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> Do you agree with me that everything is a dhamma, because all things > are conditioned by something (except Nibbana, of course). M: Yes, of course. :) metta Matheesha 48811 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:14pm Subject: Nibbana through Heedfulness buddhistmedi... Hi, all - This short sutta speaks for itself. "The monk established in virtue, restrained with regard to the sense faculties, knowing moderation in food, & devoted to wakefulness: dwelling thus ardently, day & night, untiring, he develops skillful qualities for the attainment of rest from the yoke. The monk delighting in heedfulness and seeing danger in heedlessness is incapable of falling away, is right in the presence of Unbinding. [Anguttara Nikaya IV.37 Aparihani Sutta] Yours truly, Tep ========== 48812 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:01pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi James, > > You ask, "What is the difference between 'rejecting' and 'laying > aside'?" > > Another question: "What is the difference between 'dosa' > and 'detachment'?" > > With appreciation, > > Dan Huh??? Metta, James 48813 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father mlnease Hi Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father > Hi, Mike - > > Thank you, Mike for mentioning MN 87. I had not seen it before. Mike: It's an old favorite, from before I knew dsg. Having learned a little about abhidhamma certainly hasn't diminished it for me though, abhidhamma seems to me to clarify and enrich the discourses I knew before. > The Buddha: 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born > from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.' > [MN 87, Piyajatika Sutta: From One Who Is Dear ] > > Tep: It is an example of why the pacakkhanadha are dukkha. <"In > short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." DN 22> Mike: Sure--though now I think of it, 'one who is dear' is more a concept or designation than a khandha, don't you think? Leaving aside 'stressful' as a translation of 'dukkha', anyway surely dukkha can arise whether the object is dhamma or concept. So no argument I think. Though of course the Buddha did encourage consideration of the khandhas internally AND externally, which may support your point. > Mike: I don't think that the dearness of beings is any indication of wrong > view in the abhidhamma sense, though,--that is, I think attachment to > beings can arise without the factor of wrong view per se. Not certain > about this though. > > Tep: Even when the attachment is caused by the desire that is > associated with the vipallasa-ditthi that "my daughter" may stay near > forever? Mike: I may be over my head here--I know about sa~n~naa-vipallaasa but not about vipallaasa-di.t.thi. I was thinking more of sassata-di.t.thi, the view that things last. Maybe it's all academic (for me) since I can't tell a concept from a dhamma anyway. > Mike: It does seem to me that whether attention to this or any other > object is wise or unwise will determine whether subsequent thinking is > wholesome or unwholesome, don't you think? And the nature of the > attention will depend on having heard and considered the Dhamma (or > not), I think, more than on anything else. > > Tep: Yes, I think so too -- appropriate attention always conditions > kusala dhammas to arise. But I am not sure I see how attention might > be involved in this case. Mike: Well, what I was thinking was that unwise attention might take the concept of the dear one as an object with attachment; and that wise attention might instead take sight, sound, perception and so on (those building blocks of 'a being') as evanescent objects with detachment and maybe understanding. Then no condition (for that instant) for perversion of perception, I would think. Still pretty academic! Pardon my running on. > Tep: It is nice that we have a dhamma discussion like this, Mike. Mike: Thanks, Tep, I think so too. mike 48814 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi James, Joop, Dan, I've only got time for one quick post this morning. This looks like a good candidate. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > > I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree > > with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are a > > kind of skilful means too. > > > > Metta > > > > Joop > > What is the difference between 'rejecting' and 'laying aside'? When > you 'lay aside' something aren't you in fact rejecting it? (I'm > talking about when disagreeing). This seems like using a euphemism to me. > == It is a personal quirk of mine, but there are cases where I feel quite justified in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I have not read any of Buddhagosa's works first hand, but from other accounts it appears that he insists on his own absolute authority. For example, he strongly insists that the Abhidhamma is the direct word of the Buddha. This leads me to infer that there was plenty of doubt about that in his time, and before. His method was quite different to the Buddha's. There is no "check it out for yourself", but just "take my word for it, or be damned". My reaction, out the window it goes. Why on earth read Buddhagosa if there is enough Buddha to last a lifetime? Kind Regards Herman 48815 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Buddhist Posters Evan_Stamato... I usually read and post messages just through my email client but today I decided to examine the web front end. There I discovered the photos section and also the files section. In the files section I have added a folder called Buddhist Posters. These are just a collection of suttas and quotes that I have come across over the years and which have become some of my favourites. Many of them are just the basics (4 Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, 5 Hindrances, etc) but I feel that firstly I constantly need to be reminded of them and secondly nothing "basic" is ever that basic - they all have deep meaning. Anyway, I have printed these out and laminated them and I have placed them on the wall of my meditation room. So I thought I might share them around with the members here - some might find them as useful as I have. With Metta, Vangelis 48816 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father robmoult Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo (and other friends) - > > This morning my daughter's plane landed safely in Misawa, Japan. It is > a special day for me because I have discovered my hidden wong > views. Can anybody help me find the right view in this situation? > > My only child is now a 31-years old woman. For many years I always > instinctively thought of her as "my daughter", wanted her to be near, > and wanted to know everything that happened in her life. But now that > she is a surgeon, a major in the U.S. Air Force, and soon will be > working in Japan, we are no longer close. > > Suddenly I realize that the attachment to her as my daughter was a > wrong view, an extreme view caused by the desire that the little kid I > used to know may remain the same (forever). But trying to think "my > daughter does not exist", in order to avoid sadness of being parted > from her, is another wrong view, another extreme view. So how should I > think rightly? ===== I was passing by DSG and saw your message. I am reminded of the Bhadraka Sutta (Gandhabhaka Sutta in Thai). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-011.html The Buddha did not chastise the Headman for his anxiousness about being away from his son. The Buddha understood that these feelings are natural for laypeople such as ourselves. What the Buddha encouraged us to do is to recognize that desire brings suffering. With that understanding as a base, we will be encouraged to develop metta and karuna. The last clause, "desire is the root of suffering" (I am using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, not Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation from ATI) was interesting to me. I checked the original Pali for this clause and found it to read, "chandohi mulam dukkhassati". I found it interesting that the Buddha used the term "chanda" which is a more generic (and ethically variable) type of "desire" rather than "lobha" or the more specific "pema" which is often used to denote familial affection. Clearly, the Buddha wanted to generalize a specific situation. Tep, what can you learn from this experience and how can you then apply what you have learned? Of course, if it were a monk who had these feelings of loss when a family member was far away, then I am sure that the Buddha would have had other advice! But you are not a monk, and therefore you should not subject yourself to the same set of rules as monastics do. Metta, Rob M :-) 48817 From: "wassermanthewizzard" Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:42pm Subject: 10-day Goenka course wassermanthe... I am interested in finding out about the 10-day Goenka course from people who have attended it. I am concerned about being able to sit that long and just generally interested in information about the program. Dave 48818 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 10-day Goenka course upasaka_howard Hi, Dave - In a message dated 8/14/05 7:53:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wassermanthewizzard@... writes: I am interested in finding out about the 10-day Goenka course from people who have attended it. I am concerned about being able to sit that long and just generally interested in information about the program. Dave ====================== I've attended one such course, and I thought it was superb!! If you are a regular meditator, and especially if you have attended a couple short meditation retreats, I think you are likely to have no problem with it. But if you are entirely a "newbie", I wouldn't recommend beginning with that. BTW, Dave, and this really amuses me - my older son's name is David Wasserman! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48819 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:23pm Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course onco111 Hi Dave, If you are concerned about being able to sit that long (10 hrs. per day; no talking), it will be a struggle. However, you will almost certainly succeed if you decide to go for it. Extremely few who go to a Goenka retreat are unable to make it through. When you get antsy, just remind yourself that developing mental discipline and overcoming antsiness is a big part of why you are there. That simple self- reminder will get you through several hours. Goenka has been so successful that he only attends a small fraction of the retreats, so the instruction is via video and audio tapes. The idea of being taught by a T.V. is a big turnoff for many people, but it really is not a big issue. I've been to Goenka 10-day retreats both where he was there live and in person (only once) and where he was absent (several times). The video format detracts very little. Goenka has a very engaging personality and is a great teacher, both of which come through clearly in the tapes. Questions are bound to arise during the course of your retreat, and you will be able to discuss these with the assistant teacher at noon and in the evening. The teachers have all spent enough time with Goenka that their answers to the wide array of questions that beginning meditators ask will be pretty much the same answers Goenka himself would give. In any case, your time with the instructors one-on-one in person will be extremely limited -- maybe 5 minutes per day, max. The rest of the time you will be in silent meditation. It sounds intense and it is, but you will learn a lot. If you have practiced other forms of Vipassana (e.g., as taught in Thailand), you may have trouble adjusting to Goenka's approach because he strongly emphasizes forcing the mind to attach to particular objects. The result is a sharp concentration and the realization of the fruits of that concentration, which tend to be quite pleasant. In my first retreat, I spent a whole lot of energy in silent complaint that his method was so very different from the "true" method I had learned in previous trips to Thailand and had been practicing daily at home for a few years prior. With me it was, "This method is not as good as the other." But such complaints and doubts can come in any variety of forms, and are bound to arise. But even when they are 100% intellectually valid, they are still 100% ill-placed because they are just manifestations of attachment to a "method." This is just one part of a life-long struggle of developing wisdom and detachment -- at first you learn to recognize very coarse, strong attachments, and then learn to attentuate the attachments. And many strong attachments will become evident when you sit. If you recognize them as attachments and as a danger, you will have learned something extremely valuable. Developing a strong attachment to Goenka and his meditation technique is also a danger, and one that is quite common. Because Goenka is such a pleasant person and because his technique "feels" so right, it is difficult to see the danger in the attachment, but that attachment can remain blindingly strong for years or decades or longer (and probably will, if you have a successful retreat). You will learn a great deal in your 10-days but not nearly as much as you will in the months and years to follow. Best of luck, Dave, and let us know how it all went. Dan 48820 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] commentaries. onco111 Dear Howard, You are hitting half the commentaries mark dead on: "What do we depend on? Authority? The Buddha said NOT to depend on that!" Blind acceptance and parroting are just what he warned against. The other half of the mark is that the commentaries use a different method of exposition than the primary canon. They are primarily scholastic and encyclopedic -- useful for finding clues about confusing passages, terminology, or contexts, useful for getting a proper sense about how to understand the primary texts, but a siren's song for the intellectually inclined. Metta, Dan 48821 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: Buddhist Posters christine_fo... Hello Vangelis, Thanks for posting the photo ... Nice to "see" you here. There are now 75 photos in the member's album, 18 in the Significant Others album, and 24 in the DSG Meetings Album. These can be viewed at: http://tinyurl.com/98uhz But, one wonders .... As there are 664 members and assorted beings, that means there are at least 590 'shrinking violets' out there. It would be great if lots more of you would place your photos in the Albums ... just have a look -- all shapes and sizes, several species, all ages ... a bit like the Metta Sutta really ....: "Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth:" ....we're all in there, so why not come and join us? If you aren't sure how to get a photo from your computer to the website, or something even more complicated - just ask. :-) metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > I usually read and post messages just through my email client but today > I decided to examine the web front end. There I discovered the photos > section and also the files section. In the files section I have added a > folder called Buddhist Posters. These are just a collection of suttas > and quotes that I have come across over the years and which have become > some of my favourites. > > Vangelis > 48822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-08-2005 17:53 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > An interesting implication of this is, when we are investigating with > pleasant feeling a kusala object such as a pretty girl, beautiful > music, delicious food, etc., ------ N: Just a remark. A thing of beauty is not a kusala object, rather a pleasant object. When experiencing beauty through eyes, the seeing is kusala vipaakacitta, and this is followed by receiving-consciousness and investigating consciousness that are also vipaaka. When the object is very pleasant the investigating consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, but this feeling is also merely vipaaka, it is quite different from pleasant feeling arising with kusala citta or akusala citta. Kamma conditions the santiiranacitta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling, just for a moment. That is all. It is a passive kind of pleasant feeling. ------- L: this investigating consciousness is the same as a javana citta unique to an arahant except for an arahant it is repeated 7 times, because of javana, is more energetic because no > viriya in our investigation, and can have any kind of object. ------ N: We cannot compare these different kinds of cittas. They are different in nature, in the way of occurring and in object. They are both ahetuka and have similar cetasikas, except that there is viriya in addition to the smile-producing citta. Investigating consciousness is vipaakacitta, whereas the smile-producing citta of the arahat is performing the function of javana. The objects can be experienced through six doors and they are very special objects. For the Buddha it arises after mahaa-kiriyacitta with omniscience. I requote: < We read in the Expositor (II, p. 386) about the smiling-consciousness of the arahat which arises in the processes of cittas experiencing objects through the six doors: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. N: First the Buddha directs his attention to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by wisdom, and after that he smiles with ahetuka kiriyacittas, which are hasituppaada cittas. It is explained in the Expositor (II, p. 388) that ordinary persons laugh with four types of citta: four kusala cittas accompanied by joy, and four lobha-muula-cittas accompanied by joy. When we laugh, there are usually lobha-muulacittas. Arahats smile with four mahaa-kiriyacittas accompanied by joy and with one type of ahetuka kiriyacitta accompanied by joy. The last type of citta is ahetuka, it is without the hetus of alobha, adosa and paññaa. The cittas of the arahat are not always accompanied by paññaa.> ***** L:Both consciousnesses produce smiles. ----- N: Not santiranacitta that is only an extremely short moment of vipaakacitta. Nina. 48823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika nilovg Hi Tep, op 14-08-2005 21:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > Question 1: I think I understand that the ahetuka mano-dhatu 70 and the > two mano-vinnana-dhatu 71 & 72 play the important avajjana function > during the normal daily life. --------- N: only one mano-vinnana-dhatu, the other one (72) is only for arahats. Right, just now there is all the time adverting to a sense object and then through the mind-door. ------- T: But I am not clear how this adverting > function operates during samatha meditation (say, in the 1st jhana). ------ N: I just paste from my Abh in Daily Life: The meditator has developed samatha to a high degree and thus there are conditions for jhaanacittas. There are the right conditions for parikamma etc, ariusing after the mind-door-adverting-consciousness, which is just one moment of ahetuka kiriyacitta. -------- T: Question 2 : Does the following paragraph make sense to you? I > translated it from Thai source, but it may very well contain a number of > errors. > > "A magga-nana cannot occur in ahetuka cittas. The Abhidhammattha- > Sanghaha explains that beings who are born ahetuka are without kiriya- > javana- and appana-javana-cittas, they cannot develop the mind to > attain kamavacara-vipaka cittas with knowledge(nana)." ------- I think the meaning is that someone born without the sobhana hetus of alobha, adosa and paññaa cannot attain jhana nor enlightenment in that life. Someone may be born a human with ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta, and santiira.na citta performs this function. This is a weak vipaaka and he is handicapped from the first moment of life. The above text is not so clear. Nina. 48824 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 483 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) Among 9 stocks of akusala dhamma the first 5 stocks have been explained in the previous posts. 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, obstructions) Nivarana means 'hindrance' 'obstruction'. Nivareti means 'warding off' 'keeping back' 'preventing' 'refusal'. What are hindrances? What are obstructions? These are subtle akusala dhamma and these akusala dhamma are not like aggressive forms of akusala that are seen in daily life. In daily life there are unwholesome dhamma here and there and we have always heard them almost all the time. There are dosa or hatred, lobha or greediness, moha or ignorance and these root dhamma lead all the aggressive forms of akusala. All these aggressive forms may be seen in wars, disasters, famine etc. But unlike these forms of akusala, nivarana dhamma or hindrances are so subtle that they are hardly detected by most beings. These dhamma are only seen during the activities of looking for true dhamma. Nivarana or hindrances are things that obstruct or hinder arising of jhaana-kusala or magga-kusala. So whenever someone tries to attain jhaana or magga in anyway these hindrances or nivarana dhamma arise and they all hinder 'the arising of jhaana-kusala or magga-kusala'. Nivara dhamma obstruct unarisen kusala dhamma (jhana-kusala and magga- kusala). They hinder unarisen kusala dhamma (jhana-kusala and magga- kusala). They obstruct or hinder 'the already arisen jhana-kusala' and jhana is then destroyed. So as long as there are these hindrances there is no jhana and there will not be any magga-kusala at all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48825 From: Kranthi Bathula Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10-day Goenka course kranthi_bathula Hi Dave, nice to hear that you are planning to attend a 10-day course. Initially, you may find it difficult to sit that long (may be the first one or two days), but afterwards you won't find it that diffcult. Particularly while listening to Goenkaji's discourses, we understand what a difficulty is... what a pain is... what suffering is all about.. what is the cause of suffering and all.. and as the days go on we learn how to overcome that difficulty. I attended a 10-day course last year and found it very effective. Many illusions, delusions, myths that I had earlier, were shattered after attending that course. FYI, some of the participants were senior citizens and even they practiced the meditation sitting for long hours everyday. The most interesting and entertaining part of the daily retreat at the course is video screening of Goenkaji's discourses played daily in the evening for about an hour. He is a gifted teacher.. applies right words, right phrases at the right time. And he uses very simple english so everybody can understand it easily.. instead of using exotic/difficult words and confusing the audience. He also has a very good sense of humor and you will see many occassions in the videos where he tells funny tales, humorous ways in which he tries to shatter the illusions, and audience bursting into laugher. Sometimes, you will feel as if he were reading your mind. I suggest it's better to have a general understanding of what vipassana is all about, basics of the techniques, etc. before attending the course. You can find such info from www.dhamma.org All the best to you Dave and looking forward to hear from you about your experiences. Kranthi. --- wassermanthewizzard wrote: > I am interested in finding out about the 10-day > Goenka course from people who > have attended it. I am concerned about being able > to sit that long and just > generally interested in information about the > program. > > Dave 48826 From: "mlnease" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course mlnease Hi Dan, Just a couple of questions, hope you don't mind my snipping: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > ...you will almost > certainly succeed if you decide to go for it... Could you elaborate on the nature of this success? > ...that attachment can remain > blindingly strong for years or decades or longer (and probably will, > if you have a successful retreat). Just about the same question, I guess--what sort of success leads to or is compatible with strong attachment? Having been quite UNsuccessful with a three-month Mahasi retreat has left me curious about these things ever since, I guess. Thanks in Advance, mike 48827 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthaana (10) nilovg Dear Htoo, I like to be reminded of the detailed movements. --------- op 14-08-2005 02:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' > 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' > 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' > > 20 contemplations are on 'detail movements' of own body, 20 > are on 'detail movements' of others' body, and 20 contemplations > are on 'detail movements' of both 'own body' and 'others body'. > > As said in previous post, the contemplation is not on 'the idea of so > and so detail movement' or not on 'the words written in any text' or > not on 'the words spoken by any teacher'. But the contemplation > has to be on 'ruupa' or 'naama'. -------- N: Yes, the reminder brings us back to reality when we are forgetful. We do not have to think of words, but gradually we can learn to be mindful of any nama or rupa that appears. In that way we learn that they are all only elements, dhaatus. ------------ Htoo There are 20 'detail movements'. > > 1. abhikkante (when going foreward) > 2. pa.tikkante(when coming back) > 3. aalokite (when looking straight ahead) > 4. vilokite (when looking else where)..... ...... Htoo: Eating, drinking, biting, licking are also part of 4 major postures. > But they are bridging movements. They are also related to 'feeding > movements'. This is a place where almost all meditators may forget to > continue contemplating on 'naama' or 'ruupa' arising from these > detail movements because of hunger and their craving. But they may > remember to contemplate on them after finishing up their food or > after easing of hunger. Again, contemplations are not on 'words I am > eating, drinking, biting, licking' or not on 'ideas of these'. ------- N: A good reminder. It is all about daily life. Very natural. Nina. 48828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father nilovg Hi Tep, op 14-08-2005 20:54 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@... > N: BTW I wanted to tell you and Larry that your feedback on > Visuddhimagga is extremely helpful to me. > > T: I'll participate more, Nina. The Visuddhimagga is one of the favorite > books on my shelf. But it is also one of my most difficult books to read. ---------- N: At first sight these texts may seem technical, but in reality it is not so. We are further away from the time of the Buddha and from the ancient teachers, but we can learn to look at the texts in the right way. As Lodewijk just said to me: there is nothing technical, it is daily life from minute to minute. We shall soon read more texts about the khandhas as past, present, future. The purpose is to remind us that conditioned dhammas arise and fall away at this moment. We have learnt many details about cetasikas but this helps us to see that kusala cittas as well as akusala cittas arise because of their appropriate conditions. How appropriate that is we learn by our study. Nina. 48829 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:01am Subject: Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. Dear friends, this was our evening reading. Lodewijk says all the time that this is the best thing he ever heard. ****** Nina. 48830 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:36pm Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course onco111 Great questions, Mike. > > ...you will almost > > certainly succeed if you decide to go for it... > > Could you elaborate on the nature of this success? The "success" is defined entirely in conventional terms. It really cannot be any other way. Conventional effort yields conventional success (or failure). Herein, "success" may mean finishing the whole course without going bonkers, staying awake through all of days 7-9, experiencing pleasant sensations throughout the body, being able to sit without fidgeting through most of the "strong determination" sessions later in the course, appreciating Dhamma as taught by a charismatic teacher, meeting some interesting new people, etc. Goenka talks a great deal about Dhamma and abhidhamma in daily life. Because there is so discussion of Dhamma, there may also arise conditions for some development of understanding, e.g., recognizing some of the strength and ubiquity of akusala, getting an inkling of the inconstancy of citta, discerning for a moment or two the distinctions between rupa, vedana, and sankhara. For example, a good friend of mine went to a Goenka course about 15 years ago. The first thing she said after the course was over was, "I have a lot of anger." Wonderful realization, and I don't think she would ever have recoginized it so clearly without hearing and considering Dhamma. > > ...that attachment can remain > > blindingly strong for years or decades or longer (and probably will, > > if you have a successful retreat). > > Just about the same question, I guess--what sort of success leads to or is compatible with strong attachment? Lots and lots of conventional success leads to and is compatible with strong attachment. With regard to meditation, someone may define "success" as running far down the checklist of experiences that Mahasi refers to as "progress in insight." If that is the success, the attachment will likely be strong and lasting -- and act as an obstacle to real progress in insight. Although I wouldn't go so far as to call Mahasi's list and method "extreme wrong view", it can certainly lead to strong and lasting attachment. One problem with Mahasi's map and method: diligent practice of the method can very well lead to all the experiences listed on his map. Also, in one who develops the vipassanañana the experiences may well arise just as Mahasi describes. However, the experiences may also occur without the insight, and therein lies the problem. "I have attained such an exalted wisdom! I know this because Mahasi says that when one develops such wisdom, these experiences arise." --- "Ahhh, you may have had the special experience, but did insight also arise at a corresponding depth?" It's easy to answer "Yes! I am a sotapanna now!", but the exclamation points and the self-advertisement and the obvious infatuation with the special EXPERIENCE belie the conclusion. > Having been quite UNsuccessful with a three-month Mahasi retreat has left me curious about these things ever since, I guess. How was it UNsuccessful? Did you expect to come out of it as an enlightened being? Is there anything in the world that you could do that would bring you success? (Softballs, I know, but I like seeing you whack the ball out of the park.) Metta, Dan 48831 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Joop and all, > Dear Herman > > May I butt in. Nice to discuss with you (and Dan), luckily we don't > agree in every aspect. == Yes, if we all agreed there wouldn't be much discussion, I think. == > > It seems you made the last step I have not (yet) taken: > H: "There was Dhamma before, and there will be Dhamma well after the > tipitaka. Is this devaluing the tipitaka? Not in the slightest. Where > there is understanding, be that of the tipitaka or any other body of > work, there is Dhamma. Where there is no understanding, there may > well be a tipitaka, but no Dhamma." > > Joop: Funny you write 'Dhamma' with a capital 'D' and 'tipitaka' > without capaital 't'. > I use capitals too when I write about importyant, high-valued > concepts or entities; but in fact all this capital using is a kind of > idealism (Plato), of metaphysics. It's even 'ontology'. > > First a step to natural science: I think the evolutionary theory is > more or less true, so the human race (homo sapiens sapiens) did not > yet exist a million years ago. Perhaps it started only 50000 a 100000 > years ago and perhaps only 10000 years ago a human being had the > brains that he/she could use concepts. > > So in this frame of reference my question (to you) is: did > your 'Dhamma' already exist more than 10000 years ago? It could not > yet exist in a human mind but did it already exist 'as such'? > My answer to this question is: no, it's a human invention. Of course > it's possible that such a genial (but human) invention is made many > times in the thousands of years and in many places. It's possible but > we only know one occurence of it: the teachings of the Buddha 2500 > years ago. > To be honest when I talk on this admiring way about the 'teachings' I > only think about some suttas and more especially about two terms: > anicca and anatta. > > == I understand what you are saying. I think it is fair to say that in the cosmology of the audience of the Buddha the Dhamma has always existed, throughout the countless shrinking and expanding of the world systems. Every enlightened being has, in that cosmology, at some time heard the Dhamma. == > But perhaps I should understand you in an other way, or in fact I > hope I can: > The MESSAGE of the Buddha can be broadcasted in many ways. The Buddha > already did that: skilful means (or skillful means, english is a > strange language) == Yes, this was how I was intending it. It is possible to divorce the message from the cosmology. For some this would be anathema, but the message is not the cosmology. The problem addressed by the Buddha is human suffering, not what the actual history of the cosmos is. Whether we believe in a continuous chain of citta dating to originless time, or whether we see things in line with Darwin's survival of the fittest isn't so important. The reality is suffering, and we can see that occurs because separate(d) beings, with separate(d) volitions are seeing those volitions thwarted. We get what we don't want, and we want what we don't get. It is suffering to be a separated, volitional, intentional, purposeful being in a purposeless world. The Buddhist ideal is the arahant, a purposeless, intentionless, volitionless being. Such a being is totally in tune with reality, going absolutely nowhere. > > I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree > with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are a > kind of skilful means too. > I have always had a problem with the word "should" in a Buddhist context. I discussed it with Jon and Sarah, and they had a very good explanation, but I just cannot recall it at all. I noticed that shoulding was also discussed at Cooran, and I would be pleased to read the participants' reflections on the subject. My problem is that "shoulding" is volitional activity, it is willing. It is precisely this willing, this shoulding that is being recommended, that is the cause of suffering. Willing to not will is like fighting for peace or making love for chastity. Any comments would be greatly appreciated Kind Regards Herman 48832 From: "Larry" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:28pm Subject: is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Nina: "A thing of beauty is not a kusala object, rather a pleasant object." Hi Nina, I disagree. We have had this discussion several times before and since I think this is a significant point I will quote at length from CMA, p.172 so I can bookmark it for future reference: "When an object is undesirable, etc.": Since objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (ani.t.tha), the moderately desirable (i.t.tha, also called i.t.thamajjhatta, desirable-neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati-i.t.tha). While the desirable object is thus sub-divided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable." According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperament and preferences of the experiencer. The Sammohavinodanii, the commentary to the Vibhanga, contends that when a person considers a desirable object to be undesirable, or an undesirable object to be desirable, he does so due to a perversion of perception (sa~n~naavipallaasa). The object itself, however, remains inherently desirable or undesirable independently of the perceiver's personal preferences. The Sammohavinodanii states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-satta): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face. Through the force of unwholesome kamma one encounters an undesirable object, and thus the resultant cittas in the cognitive process by which that object is cognized will be generated by the maturation of that unwholesome kamma. In this case the sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration cittas are necessarily unwholesome-resultants (akusalavipaaka). The accompanying feeling is always equanimity (upekkhaa), except in the case of body- consciousness, which is accompanied by pain. Conversely, a desirable-neutral or a very desirable object is encountered through the force of wholesome kamma, and the resultant cittas in the cognitive process will be generated by the maturation of that wholesome kamma. In this case the same four resultant positions will be occupied by wholesome-resultants (kusalavipaaka). These cittas will generally be accompanied by equanimity, except that body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasure and, in the experience of an extremely desirable object, investigation and registration are accompanied by joy. When the object is undesirable, the function of registration is exercised exclusively by the unwholesome-resultant investigating consciousness. Registration in regard to a moderately desirable object is exercised by the wholesome-resultant investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity. When the object is very desirable, registration is generally performed by the investigating consciousness accompanied by joy or by one of the four great resultants accompanied by joy. It should be noted that while the resultant cittas are governed by the nature of the object, the javanas are not, but vary in accordance with the temperament and proclivities of the experiencer. Even when the object is extremely desirable, the javanas may occur in the mode of indifference as wholesome or unwholesome cittas accompanied by equanimity; for example, at the sight of the Buddha a skeptic may experience cittas accompanied by doubt, while at the sight of a beautiful woman a meditative monk may experience wholesome cittas accompanied by knowledge and equanimity. It is even possible for javanas accompanied by aversion and displeasure to arise towards a very desirable object. Again, towards an undesirable object, the javanas may occur in the mode normally appropriate for a desirable object. Thus a masochist may respond to physical pain with cittas rooted in greed and accompanied by joy, while a meditative monk may contemplate a decaying corpse with wholesome cittas accompanied by knowledge and joy. "In this connection, too, etc.": This passage is included to show that it is not only the resultant cittas that accord with the object but also the Arahant's functional sense-sphere javanas. When an Arahant experiences an extremely desirable object, his javanas occur as one of the four functional cittas accompanied by joy and the registration cittas as one of the resultants accompanied by joy. When he experiences an undesirable or desirable-neutral object, the javanas occur accompanied by equanimity and the registration cittas as one of the five resultants accompanied by joy. When he experiences an undesirable or desirable-neutral object, the javanas occur accompanied by equanimity and the registration cittas as one of the six resultants accompanied by equanimity. Ledi Sayadaw points out that this correlation between the object and the functional javanas of Arahants is stated only with reference to the natural mode in which their javanas occur. However, with the appropriate mental determination, an Arahant can arouse cittas accompanied by equanimity towards an extremely desirable object and cittas accompanied by joy towards an undesirable object. Ledi Sayadaw quotes in this connection the Indriyabhaavanaa Sutta (M.152/iii,301- 302): Here, Aananda, when a bhikkhu sees a form with the eye, there arises what is agreeable, there arises what is disagreeable, there arises what is both agreeable and disagreeable. If he wishes, he dwells perceiving what is repulsive as unrepulsive; if he wishes, he dwells perceiving what is unrepulsive as repulsive; ... if he wishes, he avoids both the repulsive and unrepulsive and dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending. Larry 48833 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course kelvin_lwin Hi Dan, > insight, and therein lies the problem. "I have attained such an > exalted wisdom! I know this because Mahasi says that when one > develops such wisdom, these experiences arise Doesn't the same thing happen with Bhanga-nana for people who follow Goenakji? Also I've ever heard so much about feeling vibrations from everywhere and everything, specially about him and senior teachers. The problem is clearly the mistakes of the people following the great teachers and not with the method or tradition itself. - kel 48834 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, > The Buddhist ideal is the arahant, a purposeless, intentionless, > volitionless being. Such a being is totally in tune with reality, > going absolutely nowhere. If this was what an arahant is supposed to be then it wouldn't be a worthy goal. It sounds more like Asannisattas Brahmas. - kel 48835 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Hi, Rob M. - It was very nice of you to give me a valuable comment based on the quote from Bhadraka Sutta : "desire is the root of suffering" . Indeed, it is. And you went on to say : >Rob M. : Clearly, the Buddha wanted to generalize a specific >situation. Tep, what can you learn from this experience and > how can you then apply what you have learned? > > Of course, if it were a monk who had these feelings of loss when a > family member was far away, then I am sure that the Buddha would >have had other advice! But you are not a monk, and therefore you should not subject yourself to the same set of rules as monastics do. > Tep: I have learned that in a situation like this, it is more beneficial to contemplate impermanence of sankhara than contemplation of the anatta characteristic. The latter may lead one to the trap of extreme views, or to the conflict beween conventional and ultimate truth. My daughter and her life are subject to change, <`all material and immaterial states, not having born, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish'>, they should be understood as thus in order to avoid domanassa. Bhikkhu Samahita said it all clearly, "Know that: All meetings end in separation ..." : - ] Yes, I know that I am not a monk and should never subject myself to the same set of rules as monastics do. But defilements (kilesa) are very pushy; if you give them an inch, they will push you for at least a foot. Sincerely, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo (and other friends) - > > > > This morning my daughter's plane landed safely in Misawa, Japan. It > is > > a special day for me because I have discovered my hidden wong > > views. Can anybody help me find the right view in this situation? > > > > My only child is now a 31-years old woman. For many years I always > > instinctively thought of her as "my daughter", wanted her to be > near, > > and wanted to know everything that happened in her life. But now > that > > she is a surgeon, a major in the U.S. Air Force, and soon will be > > working in Japan, we are no longer close. > > > > Suddenly I realize that the attachment to her as my daughter was a > > wrong view, an extreme view caused by the desire that the little > kid I > > used to know may remain the same (forever). But trying to > think "my > > daughter does not exist", in order to avoid sadness of being parted > > from her, is another wrong view, another extreme view. So how > should I > > think rightly? > > ===== > > I was passing by DSG and saw your message. I am reminded of the > Bhadraka Sutta (Gandhabhaka Sutta in Thai). > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-011.html > > The Buddha did not chastise the Headman for his anxiousness about > being away from his son. The Buddha understood that these feelings > are natural for laypeople such as ourselves. What the Buddha > encouraged us to do is to recognize that desire brings suffering. > With that understanding as a base, we will be encouraged to develop > metta and karuna. > > The last clause, "desire is the root of suffering" (I am using > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, not Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation > from ATI) was interesting to me. I checked the original Pali for this > clause and found it to read, "chandohi mulam dukkhassati". > > I found it interesting that the Buddha used the term "chanda" which > is a more generic (and ethically variable) type of "desire" rather > than "lobha" or the more specific "pema" which is often used to > denote familial affection. (snipped) > Metta, > Rob M :-) 48836 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course onco111 Hi Kel, Have you also done Goenka retreats and/or Mahasi retreats? Yes, the same thing happens with Goenka's students -- and more so. I say "more so" because Goenka very much emphasizes the "special experiences" as signposts, whereas all the Mahasi-style teachers I've worked with rightly downplayed the significance of such signposts and would discuss them only after I'd mention some special experience or other and discuss them only as a danger -- something that it was important not to get attached to and something that had no more significance than any other experience. Goenka frequently gives reminders that the special experiences are not to be clung to, but he also frequently describes various special experiences in glowing terms and labels the experience itself as insight. In particular, he talks of some kinds of piti (e.g., "pleasant sensations throughout the body", "the body dissolving into a mass of bubbles", etc.) as "bhangañana", but these experiences can (and do) arise quite readily without any insight into citta at all (let alone insight into anatta as a characteristic of citta). I can't help but think this leads to and encourages a proliferation of wrong view among his students. > The problem is clearly the mistakes of the people following the great > teachers and not with the method or tradition itself. Goenka and Mahasi? Great teachers for sure, but not perfect. Suggesting that insight arises as a result of a particular "method" (i.e., ritual) is more likely to pose an obstacle to development of insight than to facilitate development. Also, suggesting that special experiences are signs of progress in insight almost has to create obstacles for students. That being said, I can't help but be greatly appreciative for how much of a positive impact Goenka and Mahasi have had on deepening the understanding of Dhamma, especially among practitioners from non- Theravada countries (especially the U.S., Australia, and India). Anumodana. Metta, Dan 48837 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:18pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Larry, I found your post very interesting. I have only 2 questions. What is the attribute of beauty (or desirableness) that makes an object intrinsically desirable? What is the attribute of uglines (or undesirableness) that makes an object intrinsically undesirable? I believe the whole argument presented in your post hinges on being able to define the above attributes of an object. With Metta, Evan 48838 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike (and Nina) - I always see another angle of the Dhamma by carefully reading your posts, and I thank you for that. > The Buddha: 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born > from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.' > [MN 87, Piyajatika Sutta: From One Who Is Dear ] > > Tep: It is an example of why the pacakkhanadha are dukkha. <"In > short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." DN 22> Mike: Sure--though now I think of it, 'one who is dear' is more a concept or designation than a khandha, don't you think? Tep: You're right, Mike. Although it did not occur to me as a concept before, it could be perceived that way. By the way, can 'one who is dear' be considered as a sankhara? And sankhara is not a concept. ---------------------------------------- > Tep: Even when the attachment is caused by the desire that is > associated with the vipallasa-ditthi that "my daughter" may stay near > forever? Mike: I may be over my head here--I know about sa~n~naa-vipallaasa but not about vipallaasa-di.t.thi. I was thinking more of sassata-di.t.thi, the view that things last. Maybe it's all academic (for me) since I can't tell a concept from a dhamma anyway. Tep: I might have confused you by writing 'vipallasa-ditthi' rather than 'ditthi vipalasa'. I am sorry for that error. You're right that 'sassata ditthi' is an extreme view, but 'ditthi vipalasa' is one of the three vipallasas (perversion of perception, of thought, and of views). ------------------------------ Mike: Well, what I was thinking was that unwise attention might take the concept of the dear one as an object with attachment; and that wise attention might instead take sight, sound, perception and so on (those building blocks of 'a being') as evanescent objects with detachment and maybe understanding. Then no condition (for that instant) for perversion of perception, I would think. Still pretty academic! Tep: Very well said, Mike. I think Nina might want to comment on that explanation. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > 48839 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Kel, Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > The Buddhist ideal is the arahant, a purposeless, intentionless, > > volitionless being. Such a being is totally in tune with reality, > > going absolutely nowhere. > > If this was what an arahant is supposed to be then it wouldn't be a > worthy goal. It sounds more like Asannisattas Brahmas. === I was thinking in terms of the arahant's mindstream being karmically neutral ie kiriya cittas only. The arahant does not grasp at or attribute meaning or purpose to the world, nor do they operate in terms of either kusala or akusala. Therefore I would say that the words goal or worthiness do not apply to the arahant, only to the non-arahant. Kind Regards Herman 48840 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Larry - I think your dialogue is very valuable -- it explores several concepts that have not been clear to me before. Thank you both very much. I have a few questions for you to kindly answer. -- While we are contemplating feeling, how do we know that an arisen pleasant feeling is from akusala or kusala citta? Is 'amisa vedana' a feeling arising from akusala citta? -- What conditions the number of times a javana citta may repeat? By the way, does the word 'repeat' imply a self (something that can be controlled or programmed to occur exactly 7 times, for instance)? -------------------------- N: The objects can be experienced through six doors and they are very special objects. T: Where do these special objects come from? ------------------------- N: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. ..the Buddha directs his attention to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by wisdom, ... T: Would you please explain how a future (or past) event may become an object of the present-moment citta? Isn't the past already passed away (gone) and the future has not yet come into being? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 14-08-2005 17:53 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > An interesting implication of this is, when we are investigating with > > pleasant feeling a kusala object such as a pretty girl, beautiful > > music, delicious food, etc., > ------ 48841 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Evan: "What is the attribute of beauty (or desirableness) that makes an object intrinsically desirable? What is the attribute of uglines (or undesirableness) that makes an object intrinsically undesirable?" Hi Evan, Even though these are said to be intrinsically so, it is also said, "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." This latter is the most meaningful to me. In other words, conventional values. These are the fruits of virtue. Larry 48842 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Larry, In that case, I would have to say that there is no intrinsic attribute or property of an object which can be defined as beauty or ugliness (desirable/undesirable). A physical form, however, has the property of shape. One being will find that shape visually pleasant while another may find it visually unpleasant. This is dependent solely upon the particular being's kamma, or mind habits. I would go even further to state that they are both wrong and that in fact the physical object has shape and to view a shape as either desirable or undesirable, beautiful or ugly is wrong view. With Metta, Evan 48843 From: "wassermanthewizzard" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course wassermanthe... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Dave, > If you are concerned about being able to sit that long (10 hrs. per > day; no talking), it will be a struggle. However, you will almost > certainly succeed if you decide to go for it. Extremely few who go to > a Goenka retreat are unable to make it through. When you get antsy, > just remind yourself that developing mental discipline and overcoming > antsiness is a big part of why you are there. That simple self- > reminder will get you through several hours. > > Goenka has been so successful that he only attends a small fraction > of the retreats, so the instruction is via video and audio tapes. The > idea of being taught by a T.V. is a big turnoff for many people, but > it really is not a big issue. I've been to Goenka 10-day retreats > both where he was there live and in person (only once) and where he > was absent (several times). The video format detracts very little. > Goenka has a very engaging personality and is a great teacher, both > of which come through clearly in the tapes. Questions are bound to > arise during the course of your retreat, and you will be able to > discuss these with the assistant teacher at noon and in the evening. > The teachers have all spent enough time with Goenka that their > answers to the wide array of questions that beginning meditators ask > will be pretty much the same answers Goenka himself would give. In > any case, your time with the instructors one-on-one in person will be > extremely limited -- maybe 5 minutes per day, max. The rest of the > time you will be in silent meditation. It sounds intense and it is, > but you will learn a lot. > > If you have practiced other forms of Vipassana (e.g., as taught in > Thailand), you may have trouble adjusting to Goenka's approach > because he strongly emphasizes forcing the mind to attach to > particular objects. The result is a sharp concentration and the > realization of the fruits of that concentration, which tend to be > quite pleasant. In my first retreat, I spent a whole lot of energy in > silent complaint that his method was so very different from > the "true" method I had learned in previous trips to Thailand and had > been practicing daily at home for a few years prior. With me it > was, "This method is not as good as the other." But such complaints > and doubts can come in any variety of forms, and are bound to arise. > But even when they are 100% intellectually valid, they are still 100% > ill-placed because they are just manifestations of attachment to > a "method." This is just one part of a life-long struggle of > developing wisdom and detachment -- at first you learn to recognize > very coarse, strong attachments, and then learn to attentuate the > attachments. And many strong attachments will become evident when > you sit. If you recognize them as attachments and as a danger, you > will have learned something extremely valuable. Developing a strong > attachment to Goenka and his meditation technique is also a danger, > and one that is quite common. Because Goenka is such a pleasant > person and because his technique "feels" so right, it is difficult to > see the danger in the attachment, but that attachment can remain > blindingly strong for years or decades or longer (and probably will, > if you have a successful retreat). > > You will learn a great deal in your 10-days but not nearly as much as > you will in the months and years to follow. > > Best of luck, Dave, and let us know how it all went. > > Dan Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Dave 48844 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika lbidd2 Tep: "While we are contemplating feeling, how do we know that an arisen pleasant feeling is from akusala or kusala citta? Is 'amisa vedana' a feeling arising from akusala citta?" Hi Tep, If a pleasant or neutral feeling accompanies a resultant consciousness then that consciousness is probably kusalavipaka. If a pleasant feeling accompanies a root-consciousness it could be either kusala or akusala depending on the root cetasikas. However, I think this level of identification is liable to lead to papanca. Simply identifying feeling as "feeling" is enough insight. Nina can answer the rest of your questions better than I. Larry 48845 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Evan: "In that case, I would have to say that there is no intrinsic attribute or property of an object which can be defined as beauty or ugliness (desirable/undesirable). A physical form, however, has the property of shape. One being will find that shape visually pleasant while another may find it visually unpleasant. This is dependent solely upon the particular being's kamma, or mind habits. I would go even further to state that they are both wrong and that in fact the physical object has shape and to view a shape as either desirable or undesirable, beautiful or ugly is wrong view." Hi Evan, I disagree. Results of kamma are in accord with conventional values. Whether you like those results is something else. Many people don't like chocolate but they are simply deluded or handicaped. Larry 48846 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Larry, Surely liking something (let's stick with the chocolate example because that is something that I really like) is just as much a delusion as disliking chocolate? Chocolate is an object that has a taste. There is nothing more to say about it as far as the taste sense door is concerned. It will be a pleasant taste for some and unpleasant for others but both are delusions because there is no intrinsic "beautiful taste" or "ugly taste" that objects can have as an attribute. The tongue sense door attribute is taste. No more. Not beautiful taste, not ugly taste. Just taste. The beautiful or ugly aspect is not to be found on the sense object - it is to be found on the mind. I would like to show this in a diagram but I will do what I can with text below: Object ---> Sense Door --> Sense Consciousness --> Like/Dislike --> etc. The object itself does not have an attribute that causes Like/Dislike otherwies like/dislike would exist with the object independantly of contact. Because contact occurs, like/dislike has an opportunity to arise. In Arahats is does not arise. In the unwise it does. In fact, I had a similar discussion with a friend of mine some years ago and he could not refute my argument. I am not totally convinced that I am correct even though I probably put up a good argument (so I am playing a "devil's advocate" role here in order to sort this issue out in my mind once and for all). You can convince me otherwise if you can quote a sutta in which the "beautiful aspect" of an object is defined quite clearly so that there is no doubt that it is a property of the object. Failing that, I think we have a good discussion ahead of us (at least until Thursday when I go on retreat). With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LBIDD@... Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 11:54 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan: "In that case, I would have to say that there is no intrinsic attribute or property of an object which can be defined as beauty or ugliness (desirable/undesirable). A physical form, however, has the property of shape. One being will find that shape visually pleasant while another may find it visually unpleasant. This is dependent solely upon the particular being's kamma, or mind habits. I would go even further to state that they are both wrong and that in fact the physical object has shape and to view a shape as either desirable or undesirable, beautiful or ugly is wrong view." Hi Evan, I disagree. Results of kamma are in accord with conventional values. Whether you like those results is something else. Many people don't like chocolate but they are simply deluded or handicaped. Larry 48847 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Hi Evan, Desire doesn't arise as a result of desire, but rather as the habit (accumulation) of desire. Insight cannot bring about the cessation of the result of kamma in this life, but it can bring about the cessation of the habit of kamma in this life. Result and accumulation are different phenomena. You see indications of the nature of kamma result in suttas that talk about extreme views of eternalism and annhiliationism, with particular reference to nihilism. With a quick search, the best I could find is MN60.9: "About this a wise man considers thus: "If there is no other world, then on the dissolution of the body this good person will have made himself safe enough. But if there is another world, then on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. Now whether or not the word of those good recluses and brahmins is true, let me assume that there is no other world: still this good person is here and now censured by the wise as an immoral person, one of wrong view who holds the doctrie of nihilism. But on the other hand, if there is another world, then this good person has made an unlucky throw on both accounts: since he is censured by the wise here and now, and since on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. He has wrongly accepted and undertaken this incontrovertible teaching in such a way that it extends only to one side and excludes the wholesome alternative." Larry: Notice in particular "a state of deprivation". Also you can see instances of inherent undesirability in the Satipatthana Sutta, corpses, etc. Agreed, the Buddha doesn't talk about beautiful sunsets but the middleway logic for the ultimate validity of conventional values is in place. Our error is in not seeing that these objects are impermanent. Larry 48848 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV,184 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 184. Those associated with functional consciousness with root-cause (73)-(80) are those with root-cause. Of these, firstly, those associated with the eight sense-sphere functional consciousnesses (73)-(80) are similar to the formations associated with the eight sense-sphere profitable (1)-(8), except for the abstinences (xxxiv)-(xxxvi). Those associated with the functional [consciousnesses] of the fine-material sphere (81)-(85) and the immaterial sphere (86)-(89) are in all aspects similar to those associated with profitable consciousness (9)-(17). This is how formations should be understood as indeterminate. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the formations aggregate. 48849 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Larry, I'm trying to understand here. As I understand, desire arises as a result of discrimination (feeling) which arises as a result of contact. How can the object itself be blamed for something that happens externally to it? Poor thing - it must feel very sad for inflicting so much pain and sorrow on us! Kamma result is mind habit result. It is the mind habits that have been built up over many lifetimes that result in wrongly seeing an object as liked or disliked - not the object itself whose only "crime" is to have one form or another (or one smell or another, or one taste or another or, etc). It is the mind with its delusional habits that grasps a the wrong signs which creates the likes and dislikes. With Metta, Evan 48850 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:23pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > The Buddhist ideal is the arahant, a purposeless, intentionless, > volitionless being. Such a being is totally in tune with reality, > going absolutely nowhere. > > > > > > I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree > > with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are a > > kind of skilful means too. > > > > I have always had a problem with the word "should" in a Buddhist > context. I discussed it with Jon and Sarah, and they had a very good > explanation, but I just cannot recall it at all. I noticed that > shoulding was also discussed at Cooran, and I would be pleased to read > the participants' reflections on the subject. > > My problem is that "shoulding" is volitional activity, it is willing. > It is precisely this willing, this shoulding that is being > recommended, that is the cause of suffering. Willing to not will is > like fighting for peace or making love for chastity. > > Any comments would be greatly appreciated Hi Herman Here are a few comments on the above part of your post: 1. Describing an Arahant. A pure intellectual exercise dogged by language and unknowing. When we do this, I think we need to remind ourselves that we are describing an elephant from a very close position. Not a good time to cling to our definitions and feel conceited about them. 2. Shoulding. I won't try and put words in Jon's and Sarah's mouths as I am sure they were very context-specific and I wasn't there. Volitional activity exists. It is conditioned. It comes in a variety of flavours (associated with all different cetasikas or whatever suttanta term you prefer). I am not sure if you are proposing "willing to not will" as a succinct definition of Dhamma. If so, I think it is brief to the point of being inaccurate and misleading. Shoulding is a sign of thinking about the future. Not direct knowing in the present. The word "should" appears alot in the English translations of the Pali canon. Unfortunately, it carries connotations not necessarily intended in the original language. It connotes control, success and failure. A more descriptive rendering would be preferable and in line with the core teachings of conditionality and anatta eg instead of "A should do B" one understands "where B occurs, A is thus affected". Right understanding is pivotal. Despite the efforts of some on DSG wishing to paint Jon and Sarah as tricky Pali technocrats, I have to report that this is utterly false. I found it extremely refreshing to have Dhamma discussions with them and came away with renewed respect for the profound simplicity of the Dhamma. The focus is on understanding the present. 'Should this' and 'Shouldn't that' is straying from that focus. When straying occurs, there is no right understanding. Best wishes Andrew T 48851 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Re: Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you for posting this series. They are very useful for reflection. The following is just what comes to mind. There is no need to reply if you are not inclined. As a general comment, I always like examples. I can relate to them. More below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. > > Dear friends, > this was our evening reading. Lodewijk says all the time that this is the > best thing he ever heard. > > understanding of its development people will cling to wrong practice > (sílabbatå paråmåsa kåya-gantha). Only paññå can eradicate wrong practice. > When someone does not know the difference between the moment when there is > sati and the moment when there is no sati, he may try to follow another way > which is the wrong practice. Right understanding of the way how to develop > satipaììhåna is indispensable; paññå should know that sati is anattå, > non-self, and it should know when there is sati and when there is > forgetfulness of realities. If the difference between such moments is not > known paññå cannot be developed. There will be clinging to the concept of > self who tries to ³do² something. > > The way to begin is knowing when sati arises and when there is > forgetfulness. I will give an example. We all touch things which are hard. > Even a child knows that something is hard, because hardness impinges on the > rúpa which is bodysense and there is citta which experiences the > characteristic of hardness. This happens time and again in daily life. When > we just experience or notice hardness, it does not mean that there is sati > and paññå. Someone, however, who has listened to the Dhamma knows that > hardness is a reality which appears when it contacts the rúpa which is > bodysense. Hardness is non-self, there is nobody who can create the element > of hardness. Whenever the bodysense, which is all over the body, from head > to toes, is contacted by something hard, the element of hardness appears. > The true characteristic of that particular element presents itself at such a > moment. However, when there is forgetfulness of realities and there is no > right understanding, we take the whole body, from head to toes, for self. > > From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we have, time > and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not listened to the Dhamma > one is forgetful of such moments. A person who has listened to the Dhamma > and has grasped what he heard, has right understanding of the characteristic > of hardness when it appears. He understands that it is only a reality which > appears, not a ³self². Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and > now, at this moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a > reality. Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is > aware of the characteristic of > hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a reality just for an extremely > short moment, and after that there is again forgetfulness of realities, we > are thinking of other things.> > 1] The child knows hardness. The child knows seeing. The child knows hearing. The child hits a tree with a stick. It knows the hardness, the resistance of the stick against the tree, the resistance of the stick against the hand. It hears the whack as it feels the resistance, as it sees the stick contact the tree. 2] A child hits another child with a stick. The child knows the hardness of the resistance of the stick against the other child's head, the noise of the impact, the screaming of the other child. It can see the child falling to the ground, it can see water coming out of the eyes of the falling child, it can see redness pouring from the child's head. It can see a puddle of redness on the road. Rightly seen, with sati, there is no difference between scenario 1 and 2. Kind Regards Herman 48852 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 0:24am Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course kelvin_lwin Hi Dan, > Have you also done Goenka retreats and/or Mahasi retreats? Yes, I've done both. > I'd mention some special experience or > other and discuss them only as a danger I imagine how repetitive it would be for teachers to have to hear students describe special experiences. It's hard not to laugh at myself when I remember all the time I thought the same of my experiences. If you ever sat through interviews, most people describe objects of their experience, not their actual experience. > some kinds of piti (e.g., "pleasant sensations throughout the > body", "the body dissolving into a mass of bubbles", etc.) > as "bhangañana", but these experiences can (and do) arise quite readily > without any insight into citta at all (let alone insight into anatta as > a characteristic of citta). I can't help but think this leads to and > encourages a proliferation of wrong view among his students. You have to look at Goenkaji's definition of bhanga as only after external, internal and spinal. However, most people can't even get past external. I think any teaching can and will lead to wrong view since the students are puttujjanas. Warnings are all over the place, for example ten imperfections of insight (Vism XX 105). The key phrase for me is "They arise only in a clansman who keeps to the right course, devotes himself continuously [to his meditation subject] and is a beginner of insight". > Goenka and Mahasi? Great teachers for sure, but not perfect. Technically, not even arahats are perfect teachers, only Buddhas are. > that insight arises as a result of a particular "method" (i.e., ritual) > is more likely to pose an obstacle to development of insight than to > facilitate development. Also, suggesting that special experiences are > signs of progress in insight almost has to create obstacles for I don't see anything that Mahasi Sayadaw taught that is inconsistent with the texts. Nothing ritualistic about having an object of contemplation, Vism III to X. The insight stages are also enumerated in Vism XXI. If students can't work through imperfection of insights and get stuck then it's their own fault. - kel 48853 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:10am Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Andrew, Thanks for your comments. Thanks especially for expanding on your discussions on "shoulding". Some more comments below. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > The Buddhist ideal is the arahant, a purposeless, intentionless, > > volitionless being. Such a being is totally in tune with reality, > > going absolutely nowhere. > > > > > > > > > > I fact Nina's and Phil's wise words: "I think what we don't agree > > > with or understand, we should lay aside instead of rejecting" are > a > > > kind of skilful means too. > > > > > > > I have always had a problem with the word "should" in a Buddhist > > context. I discussed it with Jon and Sarah, and they had a very good > > explanation, but I just cannot recall it at all. I noticed that > > shoulding was also discussed at Cooran, and I would be pleased to > read > > the participants' reflections on the subject. > > > > My problem is that "shoulding" is volitional activity, it is > willing. > > It is precisely this willing, this shoulding that is being > > recommended, that is the cause of suffering. Willing to not will is > > like fighting for peace or making love for chastity. > > > > Any comments would be greatly appreciated > > Hi Herman > > Here are a few comments on the above part of your post: > > 1. Describing an Arahant. > A pure intellectual exercise dogged by language and unknowing. When > we do this, I think we need to remind ourselves that we are > describing an elephant from a very close position. Not a good time > to cling to our definitions and feel conceited about them. == More conceit coming up. Let me be the first to say I know nothing about arahants. See how good I am :-) Having said that, arahants play a major role in the Theravadan scheme of things. What I know about them, I deduce from what I have read about them. Would you say what I wrote to Kel (quoted below) is incorrect? I am more than happy to be corrected, and certainly not clinging to any definition, with or without conceit. "I was thinking in terms of the arahant's mindstream being karmically neutral ie kiriya cittas only. The arahant does not grasp at or attribute meaning or purpose to the world, nor do they operate in terms of either kusala or akusala." If this description is correct, aren't arahants, then, purposeless, intentionless, volitionless? == > > 2. Shoulding. > I won't try and put words in Jon's and Sarah's mouths as I am sure > they were very context-specific and I wasn't there. > Volitional activity exists. It is conditioned. It comes in a > variety of flavours (associated with all different cetasikas or > whatever suttanta term you prefer). I am not sure if you are > proposing "willing to not will" as a succinct definition of Dhamma. == No, not proposing anything. Merely pointing out what I see as a paradox. == > If so, I think it is brief to the point of being inaccurate and > misleading. > Shoulding is a sign of thinking about the future. Not direct knowing > in the present. > The word "should" appears alot in the English translations of the > Pali canon. Unfortunately, it carries connotations not necessarily > intended in the original language. It connotes control, success and > failure. A more descriptive rendering would be preferable and in > line with the core teachings of conditionality and anatta eg instead > of "A should do B" one understands "where B occurs, A is thus > affected". == On most points, I agree with you, strongly. But one things concern me. Are you suggesting we second-guess at the intentions behind the original spoken word? A bit risky if we take it beyond as literal a translation as we can get. Very risky, if not downright dangerous, if we read the Suttas in the light of Abhidhammic conceptions of conditionality and anatta. I hope it is clear that in the study of any body of developing thought, that it is quite appropriate to look for the roots of the later developments in the former developments, but not vice versa. As a technical point, doesn't any understanding of conditionality require a correlation of events outside of the present moment? How does or can the story of the conditional link between B occuring and A being thus affected be a matter of direct knowing in the present? > Right understanding is pivotal. > > Despite the efforts of some on DSG wishing to paint Jon and Sarah as > tricky Pali technocrats, I have to report that this is utterly > false. I found it extremely refreshing to have Dhamma discussions > with them and came away with renewed respect for the profound > simplicity of the Dhamma. The focus is on understanding the > present. 'Should this' and 'Shouldn't that' is straying from that > focus. When straying occurs, there is no right understanding. > == I agree with you. !!!! :-) If it wasn't for the fact that I'm so grown up, I would have envied all you guys for having such a good get-to-gether. :-) This post started of with Arahants, I'd like to finish off with Sotapannas. Again, I know nothing about them except for what I read. Lately we've had a plethora of definitions of what a sotapanna is, no doubt to prove very important points. I am no different :-) In AN V.179 the Buddha explains to Sariputta the criteria which need to be met before a householder can rightfully speak of him/herself as a stream-winner. These criteria include "that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now". I want to focus on the formulation "at will", which is not uncommon in the Suttas. What does it mean to be able to do something at will, without hardship, without difficulty. It means that when the will arises to do something, or to have a state of mind, there is a knowing of how to do it or achieve it, followed by the doing. If there is no knowing how, there will be suffering. In such a case, the will is there, but not the way. Now to refer it back to what you wrote. If there is straying, and the understanding arises that there is straying, and the will arises to refrain from straying, and there is no knowing of how to stay with the present moment, there is more suffering. In technical terms, if you cannot stay in the present moment, you're stuffed. That's descriptive. The following is prescriptive. "Bhikkhu, I have taught you how, much learning is done, much teaching is done, much reciting is done, much thinking is done and the living according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have done what a Teacher has to do to his disciples out of compassion. These are roots of trees and these are empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent and later regret. This is our advise." Kind Regards Herman 48854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika nilovg Hi Tep, op 16-08-2005 02:11 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > -- While we are contemplating feeling, how do we know that an arisen > pleasant feeling is from akusala or kusala citta? Is 'amisa vedana' a > feeling arising from akusala citta? ------ N: Usually pleasant feeling is in our case arising with lobha. It also arises with kusala and then it is purer, but shortly after that we are likely to cling to that feeling with attachment and akusala feeling. Only when sati sampajañña has been developed more different moments can be known as they are. They follow upon each other so closely, cittas are so fast. Aamisa: worldly. It is used in contrast to jhaana. An example: one emerges from jhaana and has aversion about not having jhaana anymore, but this is less coarse than aversion about sense objects that is aamisa. This kind of aversion, I read in the Co. to Yamaka, is not added to the accumulated dosa, since it is negligable. --------- T: -- What conditions the number of times a javana citta may repeat? ----- N: This is citta nyaama, the natural order of citta. Usually seven times, but before death five times. There are exceptions. Or a process may not take its full course and arrests before the javana cittas would normally arise. ------- T: By > the way, does the word 'repeat' imply a self (something that can be > controlled or programmed to occur exactly 7 times, for instance)? > -------------------------- N: It is the asevana-condition, repetition condition that operates: each javancitta conditions the next one by way of repetition-condition, except the last one in the series. ------- T. quotes N: The objects can be experienced through six doors and they are > very special objects. > > T: Where do these special objects come from? ----- N: See my post to Larry where I quote about the Buddha's omniscience and the objects. He can direct the citta to the past or the future as he wishes and has omniscience about the objects. > ------------------------- Tep quotes: N: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the > arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. ..the Buddha directs his attention > to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by > wisdom, ... > > T: Would you please explain how a future (or past) event may become > an object of the present-moment citta? Isn't the past already passed > away (gone) and the future has not yet come into being? -------- N: The past has gone but it can be an object of citta which thinks about it. Evenso the future: it is sure to come. We shall read about past rupas in the forthcoming paras of Vis. They are past rupas, not concepts. This is a difficult subject. We discussed it in Bangkok. They are also called not so classifiable objects, navattabbamaaramma.na, but they are not the same as concepts. Nina. 48855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala nilovg Hi Larry, the text you quote is very appropriate. I have no problem. I just read it yesterday, because the Tiika refers to it in the following sections about the khandhas. It is the same as Dispeller of Delusion p. 10 (Co to Vibhanga). This text p. 1 is also similar to Vis. 185, 186 and Tiika. Yes, we had some debates, especially about the common men, with Rob M. We asked Kh Sujin and she said: what most people like or dislike. We shoul;d not make such a problem of it, as you said. See below for kusala. op 16-08-2005 00:28 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "A thing of beauty is not a kusala object, rather a > pleasant object." > I disagree. We have had this discussion several times before ----- N: The problem is only the use of the word kusala for the object. I think you understand what I mean, seeing your answers to other posts, but I repeat, because sometimes people do not differentiate between kusala and kusala vipaaka. Kusala citta is a noble or skilfull citta, it is active and can motivate a noble deed. Kusala vipaakacitta is passive, not active, it is merely reult of kusala kamma. Thus, if we speak about results we always have to add vipaakacitta to the word kusala in order to avoid confusion. Objects can be i.t.thaaramma.na, desirable, or very desirable, ani.t.thaaramma.na, undesirable, or very undesirable. Not the objects, but the vipaakacittas that experience them are the results of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We have to differentiate between pleasant object and unpleasant object and the cittas that experience them. Also, the objects themselves are not kusala or akusala. They are not active, not noble or evil. Take visible object that may be desirable or undesirable. It is ruupa and it does not know anything, it does not know that it is desirable or undesirable. In general I would say that it is not helpful to try to find out too much about the pleasantness or unpleasantness of the object. Cittas pass away so rapidly. And as you said to Tep about feelings: The development of understanding and all kinds of kusala is what matters. Nina. 48856 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 484 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 6. Nivarana dhamma or hindrances or obstructions Here there are 2 sets of hindrances. The first set comprises a total of 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances whereas the second set includes a total of 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. Suttas preache there are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. These 5 hindrances or nivarana dhamma are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous hindrances' 2. byaapaada nivarana or 'ill-willed hindrances' 3. thina-middha nivarana or 'slothed-torpored hindrances' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'wandering-worrying hindrances' 5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious hindrances'. These 5 hindrances obstruct arising of jhaana-kusala. By obstructing jhana-kusala they indirectly obstruct arising of magga-kusala. Here what needed is to contemplate on the fact that whether jhana can give rise to magga-naana. There were many many jhaana-laabhii or jhaana-possesser or jhaana- owner or jhana-holder or jhana-handler or jhana-expert even before the era of The Buddha's teaching. If jhaana can give rise to magga- naana The Buddha would not have been needed to arise to preach anatta and point out the way to nibbana. But this is not the case. So just jhaana attainment is nothing for magga-naana even though it may support arising of magga naana. But arising of magga naana is also obstructed by a dhamma. That dhamma is subtle dhamma. It is so subtle that even the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama could not see it, could not eliminate it. That subtle dhamma is also a hindrance. It is also an obstruction. Even though that subtle dhamma do not obstruct jhaana it does hinder arising of magga-kusala. What is that dhamma? It is avijja-nivarana or 'ignoring hindrances'. This is subtle dhamma. All jhaana including 5 ruupa jhaana and 4 aruupa jhaana do not have any trace of moha or ignorance. But without the knowledge given by The Buddha no one will see anatta. This inability to see anatta is a hindrance. This hindrance is avijja- nivarana. So in the second set of hindrances there are 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. They are 1. sensuous hindrances (kaamacchanda nivarana) 2. ill-willed (byaapaada nivarana) 3. slothed-torpored (thina-middha nivarana) 4. wandering-worrying (uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana) 5. suspicious (vicikicchaa nivarana) 6. ignoring (avijjaa nivarana) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48857 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:17am Subject: 37 companions of enlightenment ( Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 37 requisites for enlightenment. They are called 'Bodhipakkhiya dhammas'. 'Bu' means 'to know'. 'Budha' means 'who has known'. 'Buddha' means 'who has known greatest'. 'Bodhi' means 'where knowledge is'. 'Bodhi~naana' means 'knowledge of knowing of the highest'. Pakkhiya means 'companion' 'accompanying'. Bodhipakkhiya dhammas are dhammas that accompany 'enlightenment'. There are 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhammas. a) 4 satipatthaana-s 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana (sati) 2. vedanaanupassana satipatthaana (sati) 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana (sati) 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana(sati) b) 4 sammappadaana-s 1. uppannaanam paapakaanam pahaanaaya vayamo (viiriya) 2. anuppannaanam paapakaanam anuppaadaaya vayamo (viiriya) 3. anuppannaanam kusalaanam uppaadaaya vayamo (viiriya) 4. uppannaanam kusalaanam bhiyyobhaavaaya vayamo (viiriya) c) 4 iddhipaada-s 1. chandiddhipaada (chanda) 2. cittiddhipaada (citta) 3. viiriiddhipaada (viiriya) 4. viima.msiddhipaada(panna) d) 5 bala-s 1. saddhaa bala (saddhaa) 2. viiriya bala (viiriya) 3. sati bala (sati) 4. samaadhi bala(ekaggataa) 5. pa~n~naa bala(panna) e) 5 indriya-s 1. saddhindriya (saddhaa) 2. viiriyindriya (viiriya) 3. satindriya (sati) 4. samaadhindriya(ekaggataa) 5. pa~n~nindriya (panna) f) 7 bojjhanga-s 1. satisambojjhanga (sati) 2. dhammaavicayasambojjhanga (panna) 3. piitisambojjhanga (piiti) 4. passaddhisambojjhanga (passaddhi) 5. viiriyasambojjhanga (viiriya) 6. samaadhisambojjhanga (ekaggataa) 7. upekkhaasambojjhanga (tatramajjattataa) g) 8 magganga-s 1. samma-ditthi (panna) 2. samma-sankappa (vitakka) 3. samma-vaaca (vaci-ducarita viratii or samma-vaca) 4. samma-kammanta(kaaya-ducarita viratii or samma-kammanta) 5. samma-aajiiva (dujiiva viratii or samma-aajiiva) 6. samma-vaayama (viiriya) 7. samma-sati (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi (ekaggataa) 4 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 8 = 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhammas There are 9 places for viiriya cetasika. There are 8 places for sati cetasika. 9 places of viiriya are a) 4 sammappadaana b) 1 iddhipaada c) 1 bala d) 1 indriya e) 1 bojjhanga f) 1 magganga ----- 9 viiriya So viiriya is most frequently arising in Bodhipakkhiya dhamma 8 places of sati are a) 4 satipatthaana b) 1 bala c) 1 indriya d) 1 bojjhanga e) 1 magganga ---- 8 sati 5 places of panna a) 1 vimansiidhipaada (panna) b) 1 bala c) 1 indriya d) 1 dhammavicayasambojjhanga(panna) e) 1 samma-ditthi (panna) ---- 5 panna 4 places of ekaggataa a) 1 samaadi bala (ekaggataa) b) 1 samaadindriya (ekaggataa) c) 1 samaadhisambojjhanga (ekaggataa) d) 1 samma-samaadhi (ekaggataa) ---- 4 ekaggataa 2 places of saddhaa a) 1 saddhaa bala b) 1 saddhindriya ---- 2 saddhaa 1 place for a) citta (iddhipaada) b) chanda (iddhipaada) c) piiti (bojjhanga) d) passaddhi(bojjhanga) e) tatramajjhattataa (bojjhanga) f) vitakka (magganga_samma-sankappa) g) samma-vaacaa (magganga) h) samma-kammanta(magganga) i) samma-aajiiva (magganga) These 9 cetasikas have only 1 place in 37 Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. a) 1 place-seater = 9 . 1 = 9 (see the list above) b) 2 place-seater = 1 . 2 = 2 (saddhaa) c) 4 place-seater = 1 . 4 = 4 (ekaggataa) d) 5 place-seater = 1 . 5 = 5 (pannaa) e) 8 place-seater = 1 . 8 = 8 (sati) f) 9 place-seater = 1 . 9 = 9 (viiriya) -------------------------------- Altogether there are dhamma= 37 Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma Most frequently occurring is viiriya. So we all need to produce a good effort. After that sati is the most frequent second to viiriya. That is why 'Elders' used to say 'live with sati and viiriya'. After viiriya and sati, panna is most frequently occurring dhamma in Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. That is why there is a saying 'sati, viiriya & panna are friends'. Mahaasatipatthaana sutta says these 3 together when practising satipatthaana. That is 'aataapii sampajaano satimaa'. aataapii = viiriya (non-withdrawing effort) sampajaano= panna (sam means 'well' 'thorough'. pa means 'detail' and 'jaananti' means 'know'. satimaa = sati With these 3 friends the 4th dhamma come out to help arising of 'Bodhi-naana' or 'enlightenment knowledge' or magga naana or 'path- knowledge'. Again these 4 have to meet saddhaa. Actually saddhaa introduces 'the practitioner' with these 4 dhamma of 'sati, viiriya, panna, and ekaggataa'. When there are these 5 dhammas, they become powerful (bala) and they govern (indriya) dhamma very well. Because of these 5 dhammas, mind becomes happy (piiti) and well calm and tranquilized (passaddhi). When these happen, there arise balance (tatramajjhattataa) as enlightenment-factor. When these dhammas are ready to escalate, chanda or citta leads and finally with the aid of 'vitakka' as 'samma-sankappa' all other path- factors (samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-aajiiva) arise and nibbana is seen. May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 48858 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala sarahprocter... Hi Evan (& Larry), Let me quickly butt in here as you'll be gone on retreat by the time we get back to Hong Kong. --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > Hi Larry, > > I'm trying to understand here. As I understand, desire arises as a > result of discrimination (feeling) which arises as a result of contact. > How can the object itself be blamed for something that happens > externally to it? Poor thing - it must feel very sad for inflicting so > much pain and sorrow on us! ... :-) The object (rupa) doesn't feel any pain or sorrow, don't worry! See 'useful posts' in the files for more under 'Rupas - desirable and undesirable' (or 'pleasant and unpleasant', I forget which). Depending on past kamma, seeing or hearing or other sense door vipaka cittas (consciousness which is the result of kamma) experiences a pleasant or unpleasant object. Subsequently, desire, aversion, ignorance or wholesome states such as awareness experience this same object in an unwholesome or wholesome way. How it is subsequentlu experienced, depends on our accumulated tendencies and inclinations. If there is a 'guarding of the sense doors', there is no sorrow or attachment. In any case, as you suggest, such reactions are not caused by the rupas....but by the accumulated defilements which arise on account of such experiences.... ..... > > Kamma result is mind habit result. It is the mind habits that have been > built up over many lifetimes that result in wrongly seeing an object as > liked or disliked - not the object itself whose only "crime" is to have > one form or another (or one smell or another, or one taste or another > or, etc). It is the mind with its delusional habits that grasps a the > wrong signs which creates the likes and dislikes. ... S: Yes and you express this and other comments very well. Have a good retreat and look f/w to hearing more about it and your further reflections. Thanks for posting your nice pic in the member album. I hope, like Chris, that others follow your example...I know she's planning to also post a couple of our recent meetings, inc. one surf discussion...:-/ Metta, Sarah ====== 48859 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] 10-day Goenka course sarahprocter... Hi Kranthi & Dave, Welcome to DSG. Kranthi, thanks for sharing your experiences and adding your comments for Dave... I hope you both introduce yourselves a little more and tell us where you live and where you attended/plan to attend your courses. Please share any more of your reflections, such as those on 'vipassana' and so on. --- Kranthi Bathula wrote: > I suggest it's better to have a general understanding > of what vipassana is all about, basics of the > techniques, etc. before attending the course. You can > find such info from www.dhamma.org > > All the best to you Dave and looking forward to hear > from you about your experiences. .... S: Likewise. Metta, Sarah p.s so now we have two wizzard Wassermans!! ========== 48860 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Evan (and Larry) - In a message dated 8/15/05 10:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Larry, Surely liking something (let's stick with the chocolate example because that is something that I really like) is just as much a delusion as disliking chocolate? Chocolate is an object that has a taste. There is nothing more to say about it as far as the taste sense door is concerned. It will be a pleasant taste for some and unpleasant for others but both are delusions because there is no intrinsic "beautiful taste" or "ugly taste" that objects can have as an attribute. The tongue sense door attribute is taste. No more. Not beautiful taste, not ugly taste. Just taste. The beautiful or ugly aspect is not to be found on the sense object - it is to be found on the mind. I would like to show this in a diagram but I will do what I can with text below: Object ---> Sense Door --> Sense Consciousness --> Like/Dislike --> etc. The object itself does not have an attribute that causes Like/Dislike otherwies like/dislike would exist with the object independantly of contact. Because contact occurs, like/dislike has an opportunity to arise. In Arahats is does not arise. In the unwise it does. In fact, I had a similar discussion with a friend of mine some years ago and he could not refute my argument. I am not totally convinced that I am correct even though I probably put up a good argument (so I am playing a "devil's advocate" role here in order to sort this issue out in my mind once and for all). You can convince me otherwise if you can quote a sutta in which the "beautiful aspect" of an object is defined quite clearly so that there is no doubt that it is a property of the object. Failing that, I think we have a good discussion ahead of us (at least until Thursday when I go on retreat). With Metta, Evan ============================ Evan, here's a way to look at the matter that can make the intrinsic pleasantness or unpleasantness or neutrality of a sense object seem plausible: It is a matter of what one means by a "sense object". The chocolate taste that I experience is not the same sense object as the chocolate taste that someone else experiences, not, for that matter, do I experience the same chocolate taste at different times. A chocoate taste experienced by a particular person at a particular time is not something "out there" or objective, but is a specific internal sensation (rupa) of such a nature that it is felt ("vedanized") in a specific way - as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. One person's kammic tendencies may be such that typically pleasant chocolate tastes arise in the experiential stream, and another person quite the opposite. We seem to think that there is a unique, objective thing that is chocolate taste. But instead, one could say that there arise many different chocolate tastes, even in the same mindstream, some to be experienced as pleasant by the operation of vedana, some unpleasant, some neutral, depending on the particular chocolate-taste-rupa that arises, determined in part by kamma. So, when we find chocolate distasteful, we can say that that chocolate taste is a different phenomenon than the pleasant chocolate taste that arose an hour ago. (Many factors besides kamma, of course, can condition whether it is a pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sense-door object that arises on a given occasion.) Whether or not what I'm presenting here is fact, I cannot say. I'm merely pointing out that there *is* a scenario that makes the Abhidhammic take on this point understandable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48861 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 183 and Tiika buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for the reply on the difficult issues, some of the answers open up more questions. I hope to continue discussing and learning more about them in our future dialogues. Best wishes, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 16-08-2005 02:11 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > -- While we are contemplating feeling, how do we know that an arisen pleasant feeling is from akusala or kusala citta? Is 'amisa vedana' a feeling arising from akusala citta? > ------ > N: Usually pleasant feeling is in our case arising with lobha. It also > arises with kusala and then it is purer, but shortly after that we are > likely to cling to that feeling with attachment and akusala feeling. Only > when sati sampajañña has been developed more different moments can be known > as they are. They follow upon each other so closely, cittas are so fast. > Aamisa: worldly. It is used in contrast to jhaana. An example: one emerges from jhaana and has aversion about not having jhaana anymore, but this is less coarse than aversion about sense objects that is aamisa. This kind of aversion, I read in the Co. to Yamaka, is not added to the accumulated dosa, since it is negligable. > --------- (snipped) > > T. quotes N: The objects can be experienced through six doors and they are very special objects. > > > > T: Where do these special objects come from? > ----- > N: See my post to Larry where I quote about the Buddha's omniscience and the objects. He can direct the citta to the past or the future as he wishes and has omniscience about the objects. > > > ------------------------- > Tep quotes: N: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. ..the Buddha directs his attention to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by wisdom, ... > > > > T: Would you please explain how a future (or past) event may become an object of the present-moment citta? Isn't the past already passed away (gone) and the future has not yet come into being? > -------- > N: The past has gone but it can be an object of citta which thinks about it. Evenso the future: it is sure to come. We shall read about past rupas in the forthcoming paras of Vis. They are past rupas, not concepts. This is a difficult subject. We discussed it in Bangkok. They are also called not so classifiable objects, navattabbamaaramma.na, but they are not the same as concepts. > Nina. 48862 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthaana (10) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, I like to be reminded of the detailed movements. --------- > op 14-08-2005 02:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' > > 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' > > 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' But the contemplation > > has to be on 'ruupa' or 'naama'. -------- N: Yes, the reminder brings us back to reality when we are forgetful. We do not have to think of words, but gradually we can learn to be mindful of any nama or rupa that appears. In that way we learn that they are all only elements, dhaatus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your appreciation. When elements are seen, at least we are temporarily liberated. Only 'eradicating path knowledge' will eradicate all defilements. 'Eradicating path knowledge' is my translated word for 'arahatta magga naana'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo There are 20 'detail movements'. > > > > 1. abhikkante (when going foreward) > > 2. pa.tikkante(when coming back) > > 3. aalokite (when looking straight ahead) > > 4. vilokite (when looking else where)..... ...... > Htoo: Eating, drinking, biting, licking are also part of 4 major postures. > > But they are bridging movements. They are also related to 'feeding > > movements'. This is a place where almost all meditators may forget to > > continue contemplating on 'naama' or 'ruupa' arising from these > > detail movements because of hunger and their craving. But they may > > remember to contemplate on them after finishing up their food or > > after easing of hunger. Again, contemplations are not on 'words I am > > eating, drinking, biting, licking' or not on 'ideas of these'. ------- N: A good reminder. It is all about daily life. Very natural. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Yes, of course. These are daily life activities. I have been trying to link 'all 4 satipatthaanas'. I think, finally it is 'vipassanaa' and it sees naama or ruupa as its object. With much respect, Htoo Naing 48863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Hi Herman, It is worth considering what you write. op 16-08-2005 08:39 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > 1] The child knows hardness. The child knows seeing. The child knows > hearing. The child hits a tree with a stick. It knows the hardness, > the resistance of the stick against the tree, the resistance of the > stick against the hand. It hears the whack as it feels the resistance, > as it sees the stick contact the tree. > > 2] A child hits another child with a stick. The child knows the > hardness of the resistance of the stick against the other child's > head, the noise of the impact, the screaming of the other child. It > can see the child falling to the ground, it can see water coming out > of the eyes of the falling child, it can see redness pouring from the > child's head. It can see a puddle of redness on the road. > > Rightly seen, with sati, there is no difference between scenario 1 and 2. -------- In 2 there is more of an event, a situation. Seeing (but actually there is already thinking) tears or blood. But there could not be any such thinking if there were no seeing of visible object. But another aspect is more important. The objects presenting themselves through the senses are the same, no matter an ignorant person cognizes them or a wise person. The objects are the same but understanding of them can develop. Hardness can be seen as a conditioned rupa that cannot stay. Anger can be seen as a conditioned nama that cannot stay. Learning to see the truth is helpful for our daily life. There can be more detachment from the idea of self. Nina. 48864 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father nilovg Hi Tep and Mike, Tep, I am glad you brought up the story about your daughter, it is so human. I just have a few more thoughts. op 16-08-2005 01:33 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> The Buddha: 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born >> from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.' >> [MN 87, Piyajatika Sutta: From One Who Is Dear ] >> >> Tep: It is an example of why the pacakkhanadha are dukkha. <"In >> short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." DN 22> --------- N: I think that the Buddha explained this truth in many suttas. Even when he uses the word chanda this can stand for kaamachanda, or chanda raaga. He showed that clinging brings dukkha, and there are many levels of this, the level of conventional truths and the level of ultimate realities. The example of clinging to a person leads to suffering, but any form of clinging leads to continuation of the cycle. The conventional level is easier to grasp. We may gradually come to understand that sadness is a conditioned element, it is conditioned by clinging. Even when we begin to see this, it helps us to attach somewhat less importance to my sadness. Only the non-returner has eradicated attachment to sense objects and also all forms of dosa such as sadness, fear, aversion. This is meaningful. First nama and rupa should be known as they are. They cannot be realized immediately as impermanent, but they can be understood as only a nama or only a rupa which arise because there are condiitons for their arising. --------- > Mike: ...(snipped) Well, what I was thinking was that unwise attention might take the > concept of the dear one as an object with attachment; and that wise > attention might instead take sight, sound, perception and so on (those > building blocks of 'a being') as evanescent objects with detachment > and maybe understanding. Then no condition (for that instant) for > perversion of perception, I would think. Still pretty academic! ------- N: We cannot force ourselves to have wise attention, nor force ourselves to see only sight, sound, etc. Also when there is unwise attention it is time for awareness and understanding. We can come to know ourselves more, our defilements, without becoming discouraged about them. Nina. 48865 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Noosa jonoabb Hi KenH and All --- kenhowardau wrote: > No, no, I can assure everyone that meeting Sarah and Jon for the > first time is remarkably like meeting someone you have known all your > life. In fact I did remark on it when it happened three (?) years > ago. Meeting them this week for the second time was the same. And I can assure everyone that KenH is a really gentle, softly-spoken guy, which is perhaps quite different to the impression you may have from his rather direct posting style. He looked after Sarah and me very well during our stay in Noosa, including driving us all the way to Brisbane airport yesterday morning. > Sarah and Jon, that was a good summary of Thursday's discussion. I, > and Andrew no doubt, will fill in some details as you suggested. > Before we and our fellow Cooranites let you go, there will be two > more gruelling days of questioning (hopefully not too gruelling). In the event there was no 'gruelling questioning', just a very pleasant couple of days of exchanging ideas and sharing views. Looking forward to the next occasion already! Jon 48866 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) jonoabb Hi Phil --- Philip wrote: ... > Thanks, and thanks also Sarah for an invite in another post. I > will make it there someday. I wish I had kept my Thai - I could have > a basic conversation when I was there 10 years ago but not it's all > gone except "aroy mahk." I'm sure you'll soon pick up again where you left off. But of course if you're coming to Bangkok for the Dhamma, no Thai is necessary. > I must admit that since I am enjoying listening to the talks so > much I am eager to get the next ones. Lobha Dobha doo. > > I wonder if you're going to record any talks when you're in > Bangkok next week. I hope so. We are in Bangkok now, and will be having talks tomorrow. We are planning to record, and will of course make the recordings available in due course. > I like this sutta that I came across this morning: "He who has not > abandoned greed, hatred and delusion is called Mara's prisoner, > captured in Mara's snares, subject to the evil one's will and > pleasure." (Itivuttaka 68) And of course, this means each and every > one of us, because only the non-returner (?) has abandoned greed and > hatred, or is it the arahant. No need to answer that one. Yes, we are all well and truly Mara's prisoner for most of the time, but whenever there is a moment of insight into the true nature of a presently occurring dhamma, then we are tempoarily out of Mara's sphere of influence, and are developing conditions for our eventual release from imprisonment. > I also like the sutta that has "when there is the eye, there is > Mara." Quite so. So there's no point in bemoaning our many latent tendencies for akusala, or thinking in terms of 'dealing' with them first. Just recognise the reality of the situation, and know that insight can be developed regardless ;-)). No worries (as they say in Oz). Jon 48867 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 485 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) Among these 9 stocks of akusala dhamma, nivarana dhamma or hindrances or obstructions are subtle akusala. This means that they are not invloving killing, stealing, wrong-indulging on senses, telling lies with the form of hindrances or nivarana. Because they are by their names hindrances and they hinder the progress to higher development of consciousness. For lower consciousness like akusala cittas that are performing the act of killing, stealing, wrong-indulging on senses, and telling lies the dhamma that carried out as akusala are grosser form. This does not mean that there are no such dhamma while lower cittas arise performing akusala. But what is right is that even when unwholesome actions like killing, stealing, wrong-indulging on senses and telling are not perform there may still be akusala in the mind with the form of nivarana or others. 1. kaamacchanda nivara hindrances (by means of sense desire) Kaamacchada is made up of kaama and chanda. Kaama here means sensuous things like vanna (visual objects), sadda (auditory objects), gandha (auromatic objects), rasa (gustatory objects), photthabba (tangible objects), and thoughts related to these objects. Chanda is a wish and kaamacchanda is a wish to have or experience these 5 senses. When this happens there are thoughts on kaama-vatthu or sensuous bases. These thoughts are hindering the progress to jhana or magga. These thoughts on sensuous matters frequently arise in mind while jhana is tried to develop and they hinder jhaana not to arise. The chief dhamma is tanha or lobha cetasika. Lobha hinders jhaana not to arise and it diverts mind to sensuous sphere. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48868 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:38am Subject: Re: 37 companions of enlightenment ( Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo ( and DSG Friends) - > Htoo: May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. Tep: Thank you very, very much from the bottom of my heart for your great wish, Htoo. But, on a second thought, did our greatest teacher Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain Nibbana? Why or why not? >Htoo: Mahaasatipatthaana sutta says these 3 together when practising satipatthaana. That is 'aataapii sampajaano satimaa'. >aataapii = viiriya (non-withdrawing effort) >sampajaano= panna (sam means 'well' 'thorough'. pa means 'detail' >and 'jaananti' means 'know'. >satimaa = sati >With these 3 friends the 4th dhamma come out to help arising of >'Bodhi-naana' or 'enlightenment knowledge' or magga naana or 'path-knowledge'. >Again these 4 have to meet saddhaa. Actually saddhaa >introduces 'the practitioner' with these 4 dhamma of 'sati, viiriya, >panna, and ekaggataa'. Tep: Why did you choose "saddha" instead of "yoniso-manasikara"? Can you defend your position? With all due respect and warm friendship, Tep, yours truly ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 37 requisites for enlightenment. They are > called 'Bodhipakkhiya dhammas'. > > 'Bu' means 'to know'. 'Budha' means 'who has known'. 'Buddha' > means 'who has known greatest'. 'Bodhi' means 'where knowledge is'. > > 'Bodhi~naana' means 'knowledge of knowing of the highest'. > > Pakkhiya means 'companion' 'accompanying'. > > Bodhipakkhiya dhammas are dhammas that accompany 'enlightenment'. > > There are 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhammas. > > a) 4 satipatthaana-s > > 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana (sati) > 2. vedanaanupassana satipatthaana (sati) > 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana (sati) > 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana(sati) > > b) 4 sammappadaana-s > > 1. uppannaanam paapakaanam pahaanaaya vayamo (viiriya) > 2. anuppannaanam paapakaanam anuppaadaaya vayamo (viiriya) > 3. anuppannaanam kusalaanam uppaadaaya vayamo (viiriya) > 4. uppannaanam kusalaanam bhiyyobhaavaaya vayamo (viiriya) > > c) 4 iddhipaada-s > > 1. chandiddhipaada (chanda) > 2. cittiddhipaada (citta) > 3. viiriiddhipaada (viiriya) > 4. viima.msiddhipaada(panna) > > d) 5 bala-s > > 1. saddhaa bala (saddhaa) > 2. viiriya bala (viiriya) > 3. sati bala (sati) > 4. samaadhi bala(ekaggataa) > 5. pa~n~naa bala(panna) > > e) 5 indriya-s > > 1. saddhindriya (saddhaa) > 2. viiriyindriya (viiriya) > 3. satindriya (sati) > 4. samaadhindriya(ekaggataa) > 5. pa~n~nindriya (panna) > > f) 7 bojjhanga-s > > 1. satisambojjhanga (sati) > 2. dhammaavicayasambojjhanga (panna) > 3. piitisambojjhanga (piiti) > 4. passaddhisambojjhanga (passaddhi) > 5. viiriyasambojjhanga (viiriya) > 6. samaadhisambojjhanga (ekaggataa) > 7. upekkhaasambojjhanga (tatramajjattataa) > > g) 8 magganga-s > > 1. samma-ditthi (panna) > 2. samma-sankappa (vitakka) > 3. samma-vaaca (vaci-ducarita viratii or samma-vaca) > 4. samma-kammanta(kaaya-ducarita viratii or samma-kammanta) > 5. samma-aajiiva (dujiiva viratii or samma-aajiiva) > 6. samma-vaayama (viiriya) > 7. samma-sati (sati) > 8. samma-samaadhi (ekaggataa) > > 4 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 8 = 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhammas > > There are 9 places for viiriya cetasika. > There are 8 places for sati cetasika. > > 9 places of viiriya are > > a) 4 sammappadaana > b) 1 iddhipaada > c) 1 bala > d) 1 indriya > e) 1 bojjhanga > f) 1 magganga > ----- > 9 viiriya > > So viiriya is most frequently arising in Bodhipakkhiya dhamma > > 8 places of sati are > > a) 4 satipatthaana > b) 1 bala > c) 1 indriya > d) 1 bojjhanga > e) 1 magganga > ---- > 8 sati > > 5 places of panna > > a) 1 vimansiidhipaada (panna) > b) 1 bala > c) 1 indriya > d) 1 dhammavicayasambojjhanga(panna) > e) 1 samma-ditthi (panna) > ---- > 5 panna > > 4 places of ekaggataa > > a) 1 samaadi bala (ekaggataa) > b) 1 samaadindriya (ekaggataa) > c) 1 samaadhisambojjhanga (ekaggataa) > d) 1 samma-samaadhi (ekaggataa) > ---- > 4 ekaggataa > > 2 places of saddhaa > > a) 1 saddhaa bala > b) 1 saddhindriya > ---- > 2 saddhaa > > 1 place for > > a) citta (iddhipaada) > b) chanda (iddhipaada) > c) piiti (bojjhanga) > d) passaddhi(bojjhanga) > e) tatramajjhattataa (bojjhanga) > f) vitakka (magganga_samma-sankappa) > g) samma-vaacaa (magganga) > h) samma-kammanta(magganga) > i) samma-aajiiva (magganga) > > These 9 cetasikas have only 1 place in 37 Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. > > a) 1 place-seater = 9 . 1 = 9 (see the list above) > b) 2 place-seater = 1 . 2 = 2 (saddhaa) > c) 4 place-seater = 1 . 4 = 4 (ekaggataa) > d) 5 place-seater = 1 . 5 = 5 (pannaa) > e) 8 place-seater = 1 . 8 = 8 (sati) > f) 9 place-seater = 1 . 9 = 9 (viiriya) > -------------------------------- > Altogether there are dhamma= 37 Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma > > Most frequently occurring is viiriya. So we all need to produce a > good effort. After that sati is the most frequent second to viiriya. > > That is why 'Elders' used to say 'live with sati and viiriya'. > > After viiriya and sati, panna is most frequently occurring dhamma in > Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma. > > That is why there is a saying 'sati, viiriya & panna are friends'. > > Mahaasatipatthaana sutta says these 3 together when practising > satipatthaana. That is 'aataapii sampajaano satimaa'. > > aataapii = viiriya (non-withdrawing effort) > sampajaano= panna (sam means 'well' 'thorough'. pa means 'detail' > and 'jaananti' means 'know'. > satimaa = sati > > With these 3 friends the 4th dhamma come out to help arising of > 'Bodhi-naana' or 'enlightenment knowledge' or magga naana or 'path- > knowledge'. > > Again these 4 have to meet saddhaa. Actually saddhaa introduces 'the > practitioner' with these 4 dhamma of 'sati, viiriya, panna, and > ekaggataa'. > > When there are these 5 dhammas, they become powerful (bala) and they > govern (indriya) dhamma very well. > > Because of these 5 dhammas, mind becomes happy (piiti) and well calm > and tranquilized (passaddhi). When these happen, there arise balance > (tatramajjhattataa) as enlightenment-factor. > > When these dhammas are ready to escalate, chanda or citta leads and > finally with the aid of 'vitakka' as 'samma-sankappa' all other path- > factors (samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-aajiiva) arise and nibbana > is seen. > > May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 48869 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:49am Subject: Satipatthaana (12) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' Like sections on 'breathing' 'posture', there are 15 contemplations. The practitioner contemplates on 'earth-element' as earth- element, 'fire-element' as fire-element, 'water-element' as water element, and 'wind-element' as wind element. So there are 4 contemplations on 4 elements that exist in own body. Sometimes the practitioner perceives these elements would be there in others' body. So there are another 4 contemplations. Sometime the practitioner perceives these 4 elements are there in both in own body and others' body. So there are 12 contemplations on 'body elements'. There are 3 extra elements. They are contemplation on origination, contemplation on dissolution, and contemplation on both origination and dissolution. So there are 15 contemplation on 'body element'. There are 20 erath-element body parts. There are 12 water-element body parts. There are 4 kinds of fire-element in body. There are 6 kinds of wind-element in body. 20 and 12 altogether 32 body parts have been discussed. There are 32 body parts. 20 are pathavi or earth-element and 12 are apo or water-element. There are 4 tejo or fire-element and 6 vayo or water-element. So altogether there are 42 things to be contemplated. a) pathavi dhaatu or 'earth-element' These are earthy, fleshy, solidy, massy and have characters of hardness, firmness, softness, roughness, smoothness, tenderness. There are 20 body parts that have mostly earth-element or pathavii dhaatu. 1. kesa (hair) 2. loma (body-hairs) 3. nakhaa(nail) 4. dantaa(teeth) 5. taco (skin) 6. ma.msam (flesh) 7. hnaaru (sinew/ligment) 8. a.tthi (bone) 9. a.tthimi.mja.m (bone-marrow) 10.vakka.m (kidney) 11. hadaya.m (heart) 12. yakana.m (liver) 13. kilomaka.m (membrane) 14. pihaka.m (spleen) 15. papphaasa.m (lung) 16. anta.m (intestine) 17. antaguna.m (mesentery) 18. udariya.m (gorge/stomach content) 19. kariisa.m (feces/rectum content) 20. matthalu.mga.m (brain) b) apo dhaatu or water-element These body parts have characters of flowability, fluidity, stickiness, oozingness, liquidity, etc etc. This means that even though there are all 4 elements in these 12 body parts they are in excess of water- element or apo dhaatu. 1. pitta.m (bile) 2. sehma.m (phlegm) 3. pubbo (pus) 4. lohita.m (blood) 5. sedo (sweat) 6. medo (mass of fat) 7. assu (tear) 8. vasaa (liquid fat) 9. khe.lo (saliva) 10.si.mghaanikaa (mucus) 11.lasikaa (synovial fluid) 12.mutta.m (urine) c) tejo dhaatu or fire-element 1. santappana tejo or 'pyrexial temperature' 2. jira.na tejo or 'metabolic temperature' that grows the skin old 3. daaha tejo or 'hyperpyrexic temperature' 4. paacaka tejo or 'digestive temperature'/ 'reactionary temperature' d) vayo dhaatu or wind-element 1. uddha`ngama vayo or 'upgoing wind' or 'belching wind' 2. adhogama vayo or 'downgoing wind' or 'wind that is let out' 3. kucchisaya vayo or 'peritoneal pressure'/'wind outside intestine' 4. ko.tthaasaya vayo or 'intestinal gas right in the intestine' 5. angamangaanusaarii vayo or 'transmitting wave through out body part 6. assaasapassaasa vayo or 'respiratory air' /'breathing air' The skill butchers kill cows and then heap all meat up at the junctions of cross-road at 4 corners to sell meat. When meat is seen there is no idea of 'cow'. Like this, The skill contemplators or meditators or Dhamma practitioners or kaayaanupassii or body-contemplators examine the body and find that there are body parts and they are just elements and they are pathavii or earth element (20), apo or water element (12), tejo or fire- element or temperature (4), and vayo or wind element (6). When elements are seen there is no idea of 'self' 'man' 'woman'. The practitioner perceives these elements in his own body (4 contemplations). Sometimes he perceives that these 4 elements are also arising in others' body (4 contemplations). At another time, he perceives that there are 4 elements arising in his own body and others' body (4 contemplations). At the time when he perceives 'this is hair' there is a mind. That mind or citta does arise and fall away. The idea of 'hair' is not groundless like 'proper name or personal name'. These do exist basic ruupa for hair. Those ruupa arise and fall away. There are origination of these citta and its arammana or object. They do not last long and they just dissolve or disappear soon. There are dissolution of these cittas and their objects. After these 2 extra contemplations there sometimes perceive the third contemplation that there are origination and dissolution of these dhamma. So there are 12 contemplations on 4 body elements and 3 extra contemplations on origination, dissolution, both origination and dissolution. So there are altogether 15 contemplations on body elements. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48870 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 8/16/05 10:14:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Herman, It is worth considering what you write. op 16-08-2005 08:39 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > 1] The child knows hardness. The child knows seeing. The child knows > hearing. The child hits a tree with a stick. It knows the hardness, > the resistance of the stick against the tree, the resistance of the > stick against the hand. It hears the whack as it feels the resistance, > as it sees the stick contact the tree. > > 2] A child hits another child with a stick. The child knows the > hardness of the resistance of the stick against the other child's > head, the noise of the impact, the screaming of the other child. It > can see the child falling to the ground, it can see water coming out > of the eyes of the falling child, it can see redness pouring from the > child's head. It can see a puddle of redness on the road. > > Rightly seen, with sati, there is no difference between scenario 1 and 2. -------- In 2 there is more of an event, a situation. Seeing (but actually there is already thinking) tears or blood. But there could not be any such thinking if there were no seeing of visible object. But another aspect is more important. The objects presenting themselves through the senses are the same, no matter an ignorant person cognizes them or a wise person. The objects are the same but understanding of them can develop. Hardness can be seen as a conditioned rupa that cannot stay. Anger can be seen as a conditioned nama that cannot stay. Learning to see the truth is helpful for our daily life. There can be more detachment from the idea of self. Nina. ===================== However, Nina, I think that Herman's point is that, at least for worldlings, if not also lesser ariyans as well, the source of understanding that here is a sentient being who has felt pain and suffering, and the response of sorrow and compassion, requires conceptual understanding. The point also is, I think, that there is a genuine reality to this "story" that is not covered by "paramattha dhamma analysis". I don't see you as addressing that point. What compassion do we, or even a Buddha, feel for paramattha dhammas? None, I would say. The compassion is for sentient beings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48871 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: 37 companions of enlightenment ( Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ) htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your response. Please see my usual reply style and contents below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo ( and DSG Friends) - > Htoo: May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. Tep: Thank you very, very much from the bottom of my heart for your great wish, Htoo. But, on a second thought, did our greatest teacher Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain Nibbana? Why or why not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a hard quiz. I think our teacher, The Buddha, used 'appamaadena sampaadetha'. Encouraging 'not to forget what disciples should do'. I think there may be similar words for 'your question_did our greatest teacher Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain Nibbana?'. I am not sure. The Buddha preached the way to attain nibbana. The reason (as you asked why?) may be to help out beings to attain nibbana (total extinguishment of all fire). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: Mahaasatipatthaana sutta says these 3 together when > practising satipatthaana. That is 'aataapii sampajaano satimaa'. > > >aataapii = viiriya (non-withdrawing effort) > >sampajaano= panna (sam means 'well' 'thorough'. pa means 'detail' > >and 'jaananti' means 'know'. > >satimaa = sati > > >With these 3 friends the 4th dhamma come out to help arising of > >'Bodhi-naana' or 'enlightenment knowledge' or magga naana > or 'path-knowledge'. > > >Again these 4 have to meet saddhaa. Actually saddhaa > >introduces 'the practitioner' with these 4 dhamma of 'sati, viiriya, > >panna, and ekaggataa'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Why did you choose "saddha" instead of "yoniso-manasikara"? Can you defend your position? With all due respect and warm friendship, Tep, yours truly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yoniso manasikaara is done by panna. Panna is the first members of 3. That is 'sati, viiriya, panna'. The 4th member is ekaggataa or samaadhi. As panna has been in the group, I put saddha in the 5th position. Regarding defence, I do not have direct references except 'abhidhammatthasangaha text'. All have left in my past. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48872 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi Htoo, and others.. Ht:When we control our mind not to violate any > laws, rules, regulations, principles, moral these are just describing > for understanding. > > The Buddha preached > > 'Ruupam bhikkhave aniccaa' > 'Ruupam bhikkhave dukkhaa' > 'Ruupam bhikkhave anattaa' > > 'Vedanaa bhikkhu aniccaa' > 'Vedanaa bhikkhu dukkhaa' > 'Vedanaa bhikkhu anatta' > > and so on. All 5 khandhaa are 'aniccaa'. All 5 khandhaa are > 'dukkhaa'. All 5 khandhaa are 'anattaa M: The five khandas are anicca, dukka, anatta. Still cetana exists. We can move an arm or a leg, or a thought, as we wish (to some degree, maybe not completely). The former position and the latter do not contradict. Even intention, cetana, will ..call it what you will, is anicca, dukkha anatta. It is based on causation. It does not contradict the teachings. what do you think? :) tc Matheesha 48873 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:02am Subject: Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (Attn. Nina, Larry) - Thank you for your enthusiastic reply to my questions (and also thank you for your friendship). > > Htoo: May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. > > Tep: Thank you very, very much from the bottom of my heart for your > great wish, Htoo. But, on a second thought, did our greatest teacher > Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain Nibbana? Why or why > not? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is a hard quiz. I think our teacher, The Buddha, > used 'appamaadena sampaadetha'. Encouraging 'not to forget what > disciples should do'. > > I think there may be similar words for 'your question_did our > greatest teacher Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain > Nibbana?'. I am not sure. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Perhaps, Nina and Larry might have some answer to give us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Htoo: > The Buddha preached the way to attain nibbana. The reason (as you asked why?) may be to help out beings to attain nibbana (total > extinguishment of all fire). Tep: No, Htoo, I didn't ask why the Buddha taught the way to Nibbana. I only asked if he ever wished that his disciples might attain Nibbana. We, the worldlings, are very fond of wishing each other almost anything we can imagine. --------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Yoniso manasikaara is done by panna. Panna is the first members of 3. That is 'sati, viiriya, panna'. The 4th member is ekaggataa or > samaadhi. As panna has been in the group, I put saddha in the 5th > position. > > Regarding defence, I do not have direct references > except 'abhidhammatthasangaha text'. All have left in my past. Tep: In the suttas it is often stated that yonisomanasikara is the primary source of all kusala dhammas, and that samma ditthi follows when one has right understanding of both kusala and akusala dhammas. For example, in Samma-ditthi Sutta, the great arahant Sariputta said : "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. " [DN 9] So it is clear that "perfect confidence in the Dhamma", or saddha bala, arises with samma-ditthi as the consequence of yoniso-manasikara of kusala/akusala dhammas. Don't you think so? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your response. Please see my usual reply style and > contents below. > (snipped) > (snipped) > > > >Htoo: Mahaasatipatthaana sutta says these 3 together when > > practising satipatthaana. That is 'aataapii sampajaano satimaa'. > > > > >aataapii = viiriya (non-withdrawing effort) > > >sampajaano= panna (sam means 'well' 'thorough'. pa means 'detail' > > >and 'jaananti' means 'know'. > > >satimaa = sati > > > > >With these 3 friends the 4th dhamma come out to help arising of > > >'Bodhi-naana' or 'enlightenment knowledge' or magga naana > > or 'path-knowledge'. > > > > >Again these 4 have to meet saddhaa. Actually saddhaa > > >introduces 'the practitioner' with these 4 dhamma of 'sati, > viiriya, > > >panna, and ekaggataa'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tep: Why did you choose "saddha" instead of "yoniso- manasikara"? > Can you defend your position? > > With all due respect and warm friendship, > > Tep, > yours truly > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (snipped) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 48874 From: "mlnease" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:14am Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course mlnease Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Great questions, Mike. Thanks--you answered my questions so well (especially in your reply to Kel) that I really have nothing to add. Just a little below: > > Having been quite UNsuccessful with a three-month Mahasi retreat > > has left me curious about these things ever since, I guess. > How was it UNsuccessful? Did you expect to come out of it as an > enlightened being? Certainly I hoped (as was my habit in those days) to achieve insight, eradicate defilements and so on. The way I see things now, this would have meant achieving sotaapatti, which I certainly did not. I suppose that surviving the three months and being pressed to stay was some measure of conventional success, but not one that I'd recommend. > Is there anything in the world that you could do > that would bring you success? I guess I'd have to say that an infinitesimal moment of understanding of present mental or physical phenomena (as opposed to ideas)-- whether walking, standing, sitting, lying down etc.--is about as much success as I hope for now. Isn't this what all the teachings point to, directly or indirectly? Since I no longer aspire to the cultivation of concentration as a basis for insight, my tentative conclusion is that the best thing I can do to is continue to 'hear' and carefully consider the unique teachings of the Buddha (especially those not meant specifically for those living with the paatimokkha discipline) and of course to continue to investigate the present moment in that light. It's a pleasure and a challenge corresponding with you as always, Dan. mike p.s. In the spirit of full disclosure, I guess I should also add this: I think that the great danger of retreat meditation is not imperfection of insight--it's the mistaking of conceptual insight for satipa.t.thaana. Unless I'm mistaken (always a very real possibility I know!), the insight necessary for the imperfections of insight described in the texts to occur is far, far more rare than modern teachers of meditation know or acknowledge. They are, ironically, a mark of truly great achievement in my opinion. To think that I've encountered and either circumvented or overcome them would be a conceit of staggering proportions on my part for sure. 48875 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:20am Subject: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, this was our evening reading. Taking Refuge in Buddhism, Ch 6, the Eightfold Path. Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: Wrong Views of a Father/ Nina's Final Thoughts buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Mike - Thank you for paying attention to this father's little story of his life and thought. I also am glad that you have shared your thoughts with me and Mike, whose dhamma perspective is very unique. Nina's Thoughts: ------------------------ -- The example of clinging to a person leads to suffering, but any form of clinging leads to continuation of the cycle. The conventional level is easier to grasp. -- First nama and rupa should be known as they are. They cannot be realized immediately as impermanent, but they can be understood as only a nama or only a rupa which arise because there are condiitons for their arising. -- (responding to Mike's comment, "unwise attention might take the concept of the dear one as an object with attachment".) We cannot force ourselves to have wise attention, nor force ourselves to see only sight, sound, etc. Also when there is unwise attention it is time for awareness and understanding. We can come to know ourselves more, our defilements, without becoming discouraged about them. I have no problem agreeing with all the above! Thanks, Nina. Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Mike, > Tep, I am glad you brought up the story about your daughter, it is so human. > I just have a few more thoughts. 48877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Hi Howard, yes, there is also conventional truth and this is important as you say. Compassion is for beings, humans, animals. I saw rather cruelty in Herman's scenario 2. Metta and compassion will be purer by also developing understanding of one's cittas as elements. Then one will know when one deludes oneself into thinking that the citta is kusala, whereas in reality it is akusala with conceit, clinging or wrong view of self. So, the two can go together: thinking of beings with metta and compassion and also developing understanding of paramattha dhammas. Nina. op 16-08-2005 18:09 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > However, Nina, I think that Herman's point is that, at least for > worldlings, if not also lesser ariyans as well, the source of understanding > that here > is a sentient being who has felt pain and suffering, and the response of > sorrow and compassion, requires conceptual understanding. The point also is, I > think, that there is a genuine reality to this "story" that is not covered by > "paramattha dhamma analysis". I don't see you as addressing that point. What > compassion do we, or even a Buddha, feel for paramattha dhammas? None, I would > say. > The compassion is for sentient beings. 48878 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Re: 10-day Goenka course onco111 Hi Kel, Just a few very quick comments: Kelvin: "I don't see anything that Mahasi Sayadaw taught that is inconsistent with the texts." --> I see two. 1. No where in the texts do I see a formulation of: "Do this to attain that." In fact, much of scripture is directed toward countering such a formulation. 2. The "special experiences" in the sequence of "progress in insight" are not as clear-cut indicators of insight as is often suggested. Kelvin: "Nothing ritualistic about having an object of contemplation, Vism III to X." --> Nothing wrong with ritual! But it is not a means for developing insight. It is no coincidence that the objects of contemplation are not discussed in the sections on understanding and insight... Kelvin: "The insight stages are also enumerated in Vism XXI." --> Yup. An enormous danger is to read them as "this experience constitutes that insight". No matter how well an experience seems to match a description in the text, it does not signal insight unless insight truly arose. Having an experience is different from understanding the experience. Metta, Dan 48879 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> > Evan: Kamma result is mind habit result. It is the mind habits that have been > > built up over many lifetimes that result in wrongly seeing an object as > > liked or disliked - not the object itself whose only "crime" is to have > > one form or another (or one smell or another, or one taste or another > > or, etc). It is the mind with its delusional habits that grasps a the > > wrong signs which creates the likes and dislikes. > ... > S: Yes and you express this and other comments very well. > >________ Dear sarah and Evan, I do not believe this is the case at all. The object of each vipaka citta is intrinsically either desirable or undesirable. Like and dislike has nothing to do with the vipaka citta, it comes in during later mind-door processes. robertk 48880 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Cambodian lectures by Kh Sujin. egberdina Hi Howard and Nina, Thanks for your comments. You have understood my meaning well, Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 8/16/05 10:14:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Herman, > It is worth considering what you write. > op 16-08-2005 08:39 schreef Egbert op hhofman@b...: > > > 1] The child knows hardness. The child knows seeing. The child knows > > hearing. The child hits a tree with a stick. It knows the hardness, > > the resistance of the stick against the tree, the resistance of the > > stick against the hand. It hears the whack as it feels the resistance, > > as it sees the stick contact the tree. > > > > 2] A child hits another child with a stick. The child knows the > > hardness of the resistance of the stick against the other child's > > head, the noise of the impact, the screaming of the other child. It > > can see the child falling to the ground, it can see water coming out > > of the eyes of the falling child, it can see redness pouring from the > > child's head. It can see a puddle of redness on the road. > > > > Rightly seen, with sati, there is no difference between scenario 1 and 2. > -------- > In 2 there is more of an event, a situation. Seeing (but actually there is > already thinking) tears or blood. But there could not be any such thinking > if there were no seeing of visible object. > But another aspect is more important. > The objects presenting themselves through the senses are the same, no matter > an ignorant person cognizes them or a wise person. The objects are the same > but understanding of them can develop. Hardness can be seen as a conditioned > rupa that cannot stay. Anger can be seen as a conditioned nama that cannot > stay. Learning to see the truth is helpful for our daily life. > There can be more detachment from the idea of self. > Nina. > ===================== > However, Nina, I think that Herman's point is that, at least for > worldlings, if not also lesser ariyans as well, the source of understanding that here > is a sentient being who has felt pain and suffering, and the response of > sorrow and compassion, requires conceptual understanding. The point also is, I > think, that there is a genuine reality to this "story" that is not covered by > "paramattha dhamma analysis". I don't see you as addressing that point. What > compassion do we, or even a Buddha, feel for paramattha dhammas? None, I would say. > The compassion is for sentient beings. > == I agree with Nina my second example was cruel. And it is perhaps a little easier to be cruel if all that is developed is sati and equanimity well developed. The Japanese warrior ideal is an example. With great tranquility of mind they can sever the head of an opponent or disembowel themselves. With no more effort than it takes to strike a tree with a stick. There is a noble *eightfold* path, and it is quite conventional. Kind Regards Herman 48881 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala egberdina Hi everybody, What a great discussion. == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > >> > > Evan: Kamma result is mind habit result. It is the mind habits that > have been > > > built up over many lifetimes that result in wrongly seeing an > object as > > > liked or disliked - not the object itself whose only "crime" is > to have > > > one form or another (or one smell or another, or one taste or > another > > > or, etc). It is the mind with its delusional habits that grasps a > the > > > wrong signs which creates the likes and dislikes. > > ... > > S: Yes and you express this and other comments very well. > > > >________ > Dear sarah and Evan, > I do not believe this is the case at all. > The object of each vipaka citta is intrinsically either desirable or > undesirable. > Like and dislike has nothing to do with the vipaka citta, it comes in > during later mind-door processes. == One question, but. What are we discussing, a theory, or reality? Discussing the theory would be pretty much an open and shut case. It says what it says. Reality is a bit more nuanced, though. If we start from observation rather than from dogma, it will be apparent that pain is not a learned phenomenon, but that pretty much every other evaluation is taught. Kind Regards Herman 48882 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Rob, Thanks for your input. Could you please elaborate on the cittas that arise in the process up until like and dislike arise. I may then be able to respond better to your comment and understand the whole process better myself. With Metta, Evan __________ Dear sarah and Evan, I do not believe this is the case at all. The object of each vipaka citta is intrinsically either desirable or undesirable. Like and dislike has nothing to do with the vipaka citta, it comes in during later mind-door processes. robertk 48883 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? Evan_Stamato... Tep: No, Htoo, I didn't ask why the Buddha taught the way to Nibbana. I only asked if he ever wished that his disciples might attain Nibbana. We, the worldlings, are very fond of wishing each other almost anything we can imagine. Tep, I hope you don't mind if I add my comments in here. The Buddha never wished for anything because wishing does not achieve anything. He instructed and showed his "disciples" how to attain Nibbana. He instructed them to strive for the highest goal but he did not wish them to. Now I wish I could find a sutta to support this! He did say at the end of a number of suttas to go to the foot of a tree or to a hut but I can't find those suttas at the moment. With Metta, Evan 48884 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - (8/16/05) This week we study paragraphs 217 - 238 for the 2nd vatthu (ground) of the anapanasati meditation, i.e. breathing in & out , short. These are short paragraphs and the whole content is similar to that of the 1st vatthu. (The Roman numeral ii below denotes the 2nd ground.) (ii) 217. How is it that (3) breathing in short, he knows 'I breath in short'; (4) breathing out short, he knows 'I breath out short'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation] 218. (a) He breaths in a short in-breath reckoned by brevity. (b) He breathes out a short out-breath reckoned by brevity. (c) He breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and short out-breaths reckoned by brevity. As he breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and out- breaths reckoned by brevity, zeal arises. (d) Through zeal he breathes in a short in-breath more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. (e) ... [and so on as in para 195 up to the end, substituting 'short' for 'long' and 'brevity' for 'extent']. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 219. Short in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a body. The establishment (foundation) is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment (foundation), but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation(Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body' is said. 220. He contemplates ... [repeat para 197]. 221. Development: ... [repeat para 198]. [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 222 - 225. When he understnads unification of cognizance and non- distraction through short in-breaths and out-breaths, his feelings are recognized as they arise, ... [and so on as in para 199 - 202 up to the end]. [Combining the Faculties, Etc.] 226. - 238. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through short in-breaths and out-breaths, he combines the faculties, undersatnd their domain, and penetrates their meaning of sameness; he combines the powers, ... [and so on as in para 203 - 215 up to the end]. Tep's Notes: ------------------- Unfortunately, the above "shortcuts" (although quite economical for the book publisher) most likely confuse the reader, even when s/he goes back to the referenced paragraphs as directed. So I have expanded out fully the original para 217 - 238 such that they are easier to read. But the expanded version is very long, so only one half of the material is given below. The second half will be posted a few days from now. ---------------------------------------------------------- (ii) 217. How is it that (3) breathing in short, he knows 'I breath in short'; (4) breathing out short, he knows 'I breath out short'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation] 218. (a) He breathes in a short in-breath reckoned by brevity (). (b) He breathes out a short out-breath reckoned by brevity. (c) He breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and out-breaths reckoned by brevity. As he breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and out-breaths reckoned by brevity, zeal arises (chando uppajjati). (d) Through zeal (chanda vasena) he breathes in a short in-breath more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by brevity. (e) Through zeal he breathes out a short out-breath more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. (f) Through zeal he breathes in and breathes out short in- breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. As, through zeal, he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by brevity, gladness arises (pamojjam uppajjati). (g) Through gladness (pamojja vasena) he breathes in a short in-breath more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. (h) Through gladness he breathes out a short out-breath more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. (i) Through gladness he breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by brevity. As, through gladness, he breathes in and breathes out short in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by brevity, his cognizance turns away from the short in-breaths and out-breaths, and equanimity is established. 219. Short in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a body. The establishment (foundation) is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment (foundation), but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment (foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation(Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body' is said. 220. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence (niccasannam pajahati), (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self (attasannam pajahati), (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim pajahati), (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam pajahati), (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). Thus he contemplates the body. 221. 'Development': there are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (1) development in the sense of non-excess of ideas produced therein (dhammanam anativattanathena bhaavanaa), (2) development in the sense of single function of the faculties (indriyaanam ekarasathena bhaavanaa), (3) development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy (tadupaga viriya vaahanathena bhaavanaa), and (4) development in the sense of repetition(aasevanathena bhaavanaa). 222. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through short in-breaths and out-breaths, (1) his feelings (vedanaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (2)his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa sannaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (3) his applied-thoughts (vitakka) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vitakkaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); 223. How are feelings(vedana) recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized. How is the appearance(establishment = uppatthaana) of feeling recognized? When he gives attention(manasikara) [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance(establishment) as exhaustion is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized. How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving there is a cessation of feeling ...With the cessation of action(kamma) there is a cessation of feeling... The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact there is a cessation of feeling . Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of change (viparinaama), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. This is how feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. [to be continued] ------------------------------------------------------ Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > This week we study paragraphs 211 - 216 to the end of the first ground > (vatthu) of the Anapanasati bhavana. The next post will repeat the > same format for "breathing in & out short" (with respect to analysis of > the object of contemplation, the foundation of mindfulness, exercise of > mindfulness and awareness, and combining the faculties, etc.). > 48885 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? upasaka_howard Hi, Evan (and Tep & Htoo) - In a message dated 8/16/05 7:25:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Tep, I hope you don't mind if I add my comments in here. The Buddha never wished for anything because wishing does not achieve anything. He instructed and showed his "disciples" how to attain Nibbana. He instructed them to strive for the highest goal but he did not wish them to. ====================== I would think this depends on what is meant by "wishing". Certainly the Buddha didn't wish it in the sense of internally asking for it, nor in the sense of craving it. But surely he was able to envisage attainment on the part of his disciples, he surely was pleased by their progress towards and their attainment of freedom, and he surely knew that such progress and attainment pleased him. Now to be able to envisage something hapening, to be pleased by its occurrence, to know that one is pleased by that, and to take steps to help make that a reality certainly carries a sense of wishing for something and working towards realizing that "wish". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48886 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) kenhowardau Hi Joop, We were saying: ----------------- > > Ken: "Metta can arise, perform its functions and fall away, and in the very next process of mind-door cittas, that metta can be the object of clinging." > Joop: This is a good point of departure: At descriptive and analytic Abhidhamma-level, about ultimate realities, this is correct; and in fact nothing had to be added to this statement. But on the soteriological way of thinking, about the question: How can I get liberated, what volitional acts are the best to do for that ultimate goal, your statement doesn't help so much. ---------------- It has been some time since you explained the meaning of soteriological, and I am a bit unsure about it - sorry. Are you saying that, while in the ultimate sense metta can be the object of clinging, in the soteriological sense it cannot? When (in the soteriological way) you say, "How can I get liberated," are you really saying, "How can liberation come about?" Or are you including the word "I" quite deliberately? To put my question another way; would you say, (A), that anatta must be understood right from the start, or, (B), that anatta should be disregarded until the path becomes clearer? ---------------------------- Joop: > On this level can try to get what Nina has called 'accumulations' of metta. ---------------------------- Your typo has left out the word "I." :-) Even so, I assume from what you have said that your answer to my question would be, "B." "Trying" is not a factor of the path, and any insistence on trying (to accumulate metta) implies a belief in self. ----------- Joop: > Doing metta-meditation (to avoid misunderstanding I define 'meditation' as the activity like the Satipatthana Sutta stated: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." ------------ The Satipatthana Sutta does not say that folding legs crosswise, for example, is a part of right meditation (satipatthana). It describes satipatthana *in the case of* a monk who folds his legs crosswise. It also describes satipatthana in the case of a monk who does just about anything else in the course of daily life. ------------------- Joop: > Or in daily life: being nice to people in general of doing some metta-exercises when I experience hatred to some specific beings. ------------------- According to the Satipatthana Sutta; when there is mind with hatred a monk knows there is mind with hatred. There is no mention of metta exercises. -------------------------------- Joop: > And the 'contemplation' (not exactly the same s 'meditation') of Nyanaponika helps me with this; of course it's not in ultimate language, because at the ultimate level processes don't exist because processes occur in the time-dimension and 'time' is not one of the ultimate dhamma's - not a rupa and not a nama). -------------------------------- We seem to agree on this. (?) As I said, I thought Nyanaponika's article should have included a description of namas and rupas. Before we can attempt to understand the Dhamma's conventional language, we must have a thorough understanding of its ultimate language. That is because even its conventional language describes ultimate reality. The Buddha may have had two ways of teaching - a conventional way and an ultimate way - but the Dhamma is only about satipatthana - understanding ultimate reality. ---------------- Joop: > Another useful book is that of Sharon Salzberg To those who (according Sujin as I understand) don't meditate in the way I defined the term: the difference between the practice of trying to accumulate metta in meditation and trying to get it in daily life is only gradual. ----------------- I'm sorry to be correcting you, but you have misunderstood. In the daily life practice, there is no trying of any kind. The idea is to understand, right from the beginning, that there are only dhammas. Dhammas don't try to arise, and there is no self that can try on their behalf. :-) Ken H 48887 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan (and Htoo) - Evan: > I hope you don't mind if I add my comments in here. Tep: No, not at all. I am very pleased to see your comments, Evan. From now on, please join in any discussion I may have with anyone, anytime you want to. Evan: > The Buddha never wished for anything because wishing does >not achieve anything. He instructed and showed his "disciples" >how to attain Nibbana. He instructed them to strive for the highest >goal but he did not wish them to. > Tep: I am in total agreement with you here. The key idea here is that "wishing does not achieve anything". Yet, we still make wishes in all social occasions - just to be polite ! Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Tep: No, Htoo, I didn't ask why the Buddha taught the way to Nibbana. I only asked if he ever wished that his disciples might attain Nibbana. We, the worldlings, are very fond of wishing each other almost anything we can imagine. > (snipped) > Now I wish I could find a sutta to support this! He did say at the end > of a number of suttas to go to the foot of a tree or to a hut but I > can't find those suttas at the moment. > 48888 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:56pm Subject: More on metta examples / was: The nature of Abhidhamma kenhowardau Hi Joop, Thank you for asking; I would be glad to give my opinion on the nature of Abhidhamma. --------------------------- Joop: >Perhaps when (and if) you react on my (and others) metta- messages, you can also say something about what in your opinion is 'The nature of Abhidhamma'. Kind of definition: for me Abhidhamma = texts about paramattha dhammas; primary text the Dhammasangani, secondary the Sangaha, books of Nina etc. ------------------ I'm sure you have seen other definitions explaining how Abhidhamma is all through the Pali Canon. It is in the Sutta Pitaka and in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (as well as in the commentaries). Any reference to dhammas, khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus (etc) is Abhidhamma. Would you agree? ------------------------------ Joop: > I'm asking you this question because in your messages (for example when you made an addition to Nyanaponika Thera's metta- comtemplation and in #48582) to you the 'paramattha dhammas' not only represent ultimate reality but are also in themselves kind of sacred. 'Sacred' because of the way you write about them. ------------------------------ I take your point. Although sacred is not a word I like to use (because it suggests religiosity) I can see that it conveys something more than other terms such as 'fundamental' 'vital' or 'of primary importance.' Therefore, in my opinion, Abhidhamma is more sacred than it is in your opinion - e.g., as in the following: ------------------------ Joop: > To me nothing is sacred, Theravada and sacred things can not be combined. I will try to explain was are 'paramattha dhammas' to me. When I started studying astrophysics after my early retirement that popular texts about astronomy, quantummechanics etc are written in a natural language as english, dutch etc. The higher the academic level of the texts, the more mathematical formula were used. And the top (Noble-prize winners) is nearly pure mathematics. And these authors are doing this because only is mathematical language is really and exactly written down how nature (in their theories) works; a natural not only gives misunderstandings, it also lacks the 'inherent logic' that mathematical steps have in them. This is a metaphore; to me the Abhidhamma is the mathematics of the Dhamma, of the Teachings of the Buddha. It is a superior language, already 2200 years hardly needed any additions. It is a ultimate set of symbols like mathematics is ultimate, but it is NOT devine. I'm curious what you (and others) think about this. -------------------------- I say it IS divine (sacred) in the sense that it is absolute reality. It is not a mere 'way of teaching.' Paramattha dhammas (and ONLY paramattha dhammas) are absolutely real. This brings me back to Nyanaponika and your comment in another post: -------------------------------- > "(and KenH, what he did to bring Theravada to the West was very important)" --------------------------------- Yes, that is my understanding too. I am told that, in the beginning, Nyanaponika was a faithful commentator and translator of the Pali Canon, and he did a great deal of good work, but in later years, he went his own way. This is typical of most modern-day commentators and teachers of Buddhist meditation. They teach, not only what is in the Pali Canon, but also what they think SHOULD BE in the Pali Canon (but definitely isn't). Ken H 48889 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Sarah, Sarah: See 'useful posts' in the files for more under 'Rupas - desirable and undesirable' (or 'pleasant and unpleasant', I forget which). Evan: I couldn't find a post that directly relates to this particular discussion. Sarah: Depending on past kamma, seeing or hearing or other sense door vipaka cittas (consciousness which is the result of kamma) experiences a pleasant or unpleasant object. Subsequently, desire, aversion, ignorance or wholesome states such as awareness experience this same object in an unwholesome or wholesome way. How it is subsequentlu experienced, depends on our accumulated tendencies and inclinations. If there is a 'guarding of the sense doors', there is no sorrow or attachment. In any case, as you suggest, such reactions are not caused by the rupas....but by the accumulated defilements which arise on account of such experiences.... Evan: This is how I would rephrase the above: instead of saying that vipaka cittas experience a pleasant or unpleasant object, I would say that vipaka cittas experience an object. I would not attribute the attributes of pleasant/unpleasant to the object at this stage. The expereincing of the object will then result in like/dislike arising which will then lead to pleasant/unpleasant mind states. This is why I am maintaining the argument that I am - the attribute of pleasant/unpleasant cannot be an attribute of a sense object. The sense object has attribute of sense (physical form has shape, audible form has sound, etc). If I must be forced to attach an attribute such as pleasant/unpleasant to an object, I would use the following logic: All conditioned things are impermanent, not-self and suffering therefore all conditioned things, being suffering are unpleasant. That includes nama and rupa. Let me give you a practical example of what I am trying to say. Some time ago, I was meditating on a fine sunny day. Across the road from the room I was meditating in, there was some renovation work being done and some minor sounds emanating from that house. At one stage, when I was deep in meditation, something quite large fell to the ground at the worksite. It made a very large sound (almost like an explosion) which in the state I was in, I was totally aware of - I could follow the sound as it rose and fell and seemed to pass right through me as if I wasn't there. I found it quite fascinating to follow the sound as it rose and fell, but more importantly, I was so fascinated with it, that I felt no attraction or aversion to it, there was no like/dislike, pleasant/unpleasant feeling - it was just sound - it rose, it fell - that's all. Now, if I was sitting there, not in the correct "frame of mind" I would definitely have had unpleasant feelings towards that sound. This is because of wrong view. In the very few times that I have had right view, all that occurs is the examination of the object as it enters the sense door and the sense consciousness arises. That's where it stops and for one of right view, that's where it will always stop. Therefore a sense object is just a sense object - the likes/dislikes only occur AFTER sense consciousness arises and therefore the pleasant/unpleasant attribute is generated after than by the mind Sarah: Have a good retreat and look f/w to hearing more about it and your further reflections. Evan: Thanks Sarah. I am looking forward to the retreat because it is with Sayalay Dipankara and but the danger of that is that my expectations will be too high and I will not gain much from the retreat. The mind is so fickle that it can easily be distracted. This happened when I went on a 3 day retreat with Ven. Ganarutna. I had read his book "Mindfulness in Plain English" which struck me as such a down-to-earth and clear treatise on mindfulness and meditation that I expected a lot on the retreat and it turned out to be one of the least "successful" retreats for me. But that's all part of the experience. Sarah: Thanks for posting your nice pic in the member album. I hope, like Chris, that others follow your example...I know she's planning to also post a couple of our recent meetings, inc. one surf discussion...:-/ Metta, Evan: Look forward to seeing pics of all of you surfing! With Metta, Evan 48890 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard, Howard: Evan, here's a way to look at the matter that can make the intrinsic pleasantness or unpleasantness or neutrality of a sense object seem plausible: It is a matter of what one means by a "sense object". The chocolate taste that I experience is not the same sense object as the chocolate taste that someone else experiences, not, for that matter, do I experience the same chocolate taste at different times. A chocoate taste experienced by a particular person at a particular time is not something "out there" or objective, but is a specific internal sensation (rupa) of such a nature that it is felt ("vedanized") in a specific way - as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. One person's kammic tendencies may be such that typically pleasant chocolate tastes arise in the experiential stream, and another person quite the opposite. We seem to think that there is a unique, objective thing that is chocolate taste. But instead, one could say that there arise many different chocolate tastes, even in the same mindstream, some to be experienced as pleasant by the operation of vedana, some unpleasant, some neutral, depending on the particular chocolate-taste-rupa that arises, determined in part by kamma. So, when we find chocolate distasteful, we can say that that chocolate taste is a different phenomenon than the pleasant chocolate taste that arose an hour ago. (Many factors besides kamma, of course, can condition whether it is a pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sense-door object that arises on a given occasion.) Evan: Thanks for adding another dimension to the discussion, Howard. I agree that there is no attribute called chocolate taste. what one identifies as chocolate taste will be different depending on one's tase sense door and one's habitual mind both of which are conditioned by kamma. However, there is a taste attribute. This is all that can be said of a taste sense object. This can be sensed and recognised as such but to go further to classify it as chocolate taste or pleasant/unpleasant taste is going too far. See my response to Sarah regarding my personal experience with sound as I was meditating. In fact what I didn't mention was that the sound was so sudden and so loud that in the "normal" state of existence, I would definitely have been startled out of my whits by the sound. However, because I was viewing sound as sound (and I think this is what the Buddha meant when he says things like seeing body in body, etc., it is just seeing it as it is) it has no effect on me because I stopped the creating of any mind chatter once sense consciousness arose. Imagine if we could always see all sensory input as it is - once sense consciouness arises, that is as far as it goes. There would be no fear, no like/dislike, no attraction/aversion, maybe even no self - maybe this is how an Arahat sees the world at all times. I could only guess at that. Howard: Whether or not what I'm presenting here is fact, I cannot say. I'm merely pointing out that there *is* a scenario that makes the Abhidhammic take on this point understandable. Evan: Great! That means there is an opportunity for us to try to work it out together. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48891 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... >________ Dear sarah and Evan, I do not believe this is the case at all. The object of each vipaka citta is intrinsically either desirable or undesirable. Like and dislike has nothing to do with the vipaka citta, it comes in during later mind-door processes. robertk Hi Robert, I agree that like/dislike comes in at later mind-door processes but that is only because our senses are not guarded. If our senses are well guarded, then the sense-door process would stop at the sense consciousness. So the process would be: Object --> Sense Door --> Sense Consciousness --> All the later mind processes do not occur because all the necessary work has already been done. In fact all late mind processes are delusion and wrong view (the delustion and wrong view I just made up but I believe to be true now that I look at it because we are trying to recognise something as more than what it really is). In the above process, however, not only is there no like/dislike but there is no desirable/undesirable. Surely the desirability or otherwise of an object can only be determined once the likeability or otherwise of the object is determined. "I like the object therefore I desire it and will seek it out and become attached to it." But how can "I" know that I desire the object if I don't know if I like it or not? With Metta, Evan 48892 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > >________ > Dear sarah and Evan, > I do not believe this is the case at all. > The object of each vipaka citta is intrinsically either desirable or > undesirable. > Like and dislike has nothing to do with the vipaka citta, it comes in > during later mind-door processes. > robertk > > Hi Robert, > > I agree that like/dislike comes in at later mind-door processes but that > is only because our senses are not guarded. If our senses are well > guarded, then the sense-door process would stop at the sense > consciousness. So the process would be: > > Object --> Sense Door --> Sense Consciousness --> All the later mind > processes do not occur because all the necessary work has already been > done. In fact all late mind processes are delusion and wrong view (the > delustion and wrong view I just made up but I believe to be true now > that I look at it because we are trying to recognise something as more > than what it really is). > > In the above process, however, not only is there no like/dislike but > there is no desirable/undesirable. Surely the desirability or otherwise > of an object can only be determined once the likeability or otherwise of > the object is determined. > _______--- Dear Evan, I think everything you wrote above is wrong. But I have written about this before and found, like many discussions on dsg, it leads to more entrenched wrong view as most members disregard the Theravada texts. I leave it as it is. Robertk 48893 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Re: is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Thanks for your input. Could you please elaborate on the cittas that > arise in the process up until like and dislike arise. I may then be able > to respond better to your comment and understand the whole process > better myself. ===== Hope that you don't mind if "the other Rob" takes a stab at this (it is one of my favourite topics). Rob K can correct any of my mistakes :-) Intrinsic desireability / undesireability are characteristics of sense door objects only and therefore this discussion is limited to the sense door process only. The "liking / disliking" that arises in a sense door process is the attachment to sense objects. For example, if you are meditating and there is a sound, you can sometimes "see" the mind "reaching out to try and approach the sound"; this is the kind of attachment that arises in the sense door process. At this point, the object has not been fully framed out of its background environment; it has not been named, previous associations with this object have not been made. All this framing, naming and associating arises during mind door processes subsequent to the sense door process. So most of what we are referring to when we say "liking / disliking" really arises as part of a mind door process, at which point the intrinisic desireability / undesireability of the original sense door object has long since been covered over. The texts typically uses visible objects as an example of a sense door object. This gets a bit confusing when trying to explain intrinsic desireability / undesireability, so I will use a tactile object as my example of a sense door object. Citta #1 Past Bhavanga ====================== The tactile object has arisen but the flow of cittas has not yet taken any notice of it. If the tactile object is not "very great", then there could be many past bhavangas before the flow of cittas take any notice of the object (there will always be at least one past bhavanga). If there are two or three past bhavanga before the cittas take notice of the tactile object, then the object is called "great"; more than this and the object is termed slight or even very slight. This division as to "very great", "great", "slight" and "very slight" depends on the "strength" of the object and the direction of attention. For example, the tactile object of my bottom touching the chair is normally a slight or very slight object, except when attention is directed here. Of course, if there were a tack on my chair, this would be a strong tactile object. The tactile object already has its intrinsic desireability / undesireability defined, but since the cittas are not taking any notice of the tactile object, it is irrelevant to the citta process at this point. Citta #2+ - Vibrating Bhavanga ============================== The flow of bhavanga cittas has been disturbed by the tactile object. The commentaries use the analogy of rice on the skin of a drum being distrubed "indirectly" when a finger taps the drum. The finger does not directly touch the rice, but the vibrations from the finger do impact the rice. There is only one vibrating bhavanga and since the tactile object is not the object of the citta, the desireability / undesireability of the tactile object is irrelevant to the citta process at this point. I have labeled the virbating bhavanga as citta 2+ to indicate that it may be the second citta in the process (very great object) or it could be the third / fourth (great object) or even further along (slight / very slight object). Citta #3+ - Arresting Bhavanga ============================== This is the final bhavanga citta. As a runner always takes one more step when they cross the finish line, the flow of bhavanga has "momentum" which carries forward the flow and causes one last bhavanga to arise. Citta #4+ - Adverting ===================== This is the first citta taking the tactile object as its object. The remaining cittas in the process will all take the tactile object as their object. Since the citta is now taking the tactlile object as its object, the intrinsic desireability / undesireability of the tactile object can impact the flow of cittas. In the list of 89 or 121 cittas, there is only one mental state which performs the function of adverting. It is kiriya (functional - not causing kamma, nor the result of past kamma). This citta has neutral feeling. The function of this citta is to advert the flow of the citta process to take the tactile object as object. Note ==== Now that we are involving the tactile object into the citta process, we need to gvie an example of intrinsic desireability / undesireability. The Visuddhimagga (XVII 127 and elsewhere) list four types: - Desireable (ati-ittha) - Desireable neutral (ittha) - Undesireable neutral - Undesireable (anittha) When it comes to differentiating the flow within the sense door process, there is no difference between undesireable neutral and undesirable. Here are some possible examples with tactile objects: - Desireable: Sensationg of a warm bath - Desireable neutral: Sensation of a cushion under my bottom - Undesireable: Sensation of a tack under my bottom These sensations are termed thus because "normal" people (majjhima- satta; see p172 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) would consider them this way. Citta 5+ - Sense Consciousness ============================== This is the raw act of sensing (touch in this case). Conditions which support the arising of this citta include: - Falling away of the adverting citta - Door at which the object appears (body in this case) - Intrinsic quality of the object - Kamma from some past action (this is a vipaka / resultant citta) If the tactile object is the sensation of a warm bath or a cushion, then this is a condition for the arising of kusala kamma and a "wholesome resultant" (kusala vipaka) citta will arise. If the tactile object is the sensation of a tack under my bottom, then this is a condition for an "unwholesome resultant" (akusala vipaka) citta to arise. The "wholesome resultant" and "unwholesome resultant" cittas do not have any ethical qualities themselves (they have no roots). The only difference between them is the intrinsic nature of the object and the type of kamma (kusala or akusala) which caused them to arise. Citta 6+ - Receiving ==================== The path of cittas has been split at the previous citta according to the intrinsic nature of the object. The path remains split at the time of the receiving citta. A warm bath or a cushion will lead to a "wholesome resultant" receiving citta while a tack will lead to an "unwholesome resultant" receiving citta. Like a butler, the function of the receiving citta is to make an initial acquaintance with the object and receive the object into the sense-door process. This citta is accompanied by neutral feeling. Citta 7+ - Investigating ======================== The investigating mental state examines the object, looking for distinguishing marks indicating that the object has been perceived before. At this point, the path is further split: - Warm Bath: Kusala vipaka investigating citta with pleasant feeling - Cushion: Kusala vipaka investigating citta with neutral feeling - Tack: Akusala vipaka investigating citta Citta 8+ - Determining ====================== The various paths converge to a single citta. The previous three cittas (sense-consciousness, receiving and investigating) were resultants (vipaka) of the same past action. The function of the determining citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the object. This citta is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma or its result. Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention controls the arising of javana cittas which create new kamma. This citta arises with neutral feeling. Citta 9+ - Javana ================= This is where kamma is created. These cittas only arise for a very great object and for a great object (not for a slight object nor a very slight object). It is our accumulations / tendencies / habits which determine the type of javana cittas to arise (kusala or akusala, which roots, etc.). If there is a mismatch between the intrinsic nature of the object and the type of javana citta, then this is called a "perversion of perception" (sannavipallasa). Examples of this are: - An attachment rooted citta with an object of the tack sensation - An aversion rooted citta with an object of a warm bath sensation or cushion sensation Conclusion ========== Evan, this is probably far more detail than you wanted. However the conclusion is that intrinsic nature of the sense object does not fix the type of javana (kamma creating) citta. However, a mismatch is called a "perversion of perception". Metta, Rob M :-) 48894 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: See 'useful posts' in the files for more under 'Rupas - desirable > and undesirable' (or 'pleasant and unpleasant', I forget which). > > Evan: I couldn't find a post that directly relates to this particular > discussion. ===== The following posts relate to the intrinsic nature of rupas. 25214, 25779, 25977, 26468, 26643, 26673, 26741, 26759, 26772, 26731, 26941, 27388, 28017, 28414, 41823, 41871, 42217, 42222, 42286, 42311, 42624 Maybe one or more of them might help. Metta, Rob M :-) 48895 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Evan: "Surely the desirability or otherwise of an object can only be determined once the likeability or otherwise of the object is determined." Hi Evan, I'd like to add one small point to the discussion. Society determines the desirability of an object. You don't really have much say in the matter. For purposes of satipatthana it is irrelevant. It is simply an indication of the over-arching ethical determinancy of kamma. Even the arahants don't fully understand kamma. It is no mystery how desire is habit forming and destructive, but it is a mystery how a desire today will result in a kick in the shin in a future life. Larry 48896 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Thanks Rob, I will look into these also. With Metta, Evan The following posts relate to the intrinsic nature of rupas. 25214, 25779, 25977, 26468, 26643, 26673, 26741, 26759, 26772, 26731, 26941, 27388, 28017, 28414, 41823, 41871, 42217, 42222, 42286, 42311, 42624 Maybe one or more of them might help. Metta, Rob M :-) 48897 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Rob, Thanks for trying to explain it to me. Your resonse had explained the process in great detail and highlights the fact that I need to continue reading the Visuddhimagga and study it carefully with regards to the sense door process you have described below. I still don't see how desirableness/undesirableness can be an attribute of the object as it is something that is determined by cittas after contact so I need to study this further. I will also look at the Comprehensive Manual of Abbhidhamma to see where this list of desirable/undesirable attributes is and what it says about them. Until then, consider me unknowledgable enough to continue this discussion. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of robmoult Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 12:13 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: is a desirable object kusala Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Thanks for your input. Could you please elaborate on the cittas that > arise in the process up until like and dislike arise. I may then be able > to respond better to your comment and understand the whole process > better myself. ===== Hope that you don't mind if "the other Rob" takes a stab at this (it is one of my favourite topics). Rob K can correct any of my mistakes :-) Intrinsic desireability / undesireability are characteristics of sense door objects only and therefore this discussion is limited to the sense door process only. The "liking / disliking" that arises in a sense door process is the attachment to sense objects. For example, if you are meditating and there is a sound, you can sometimes "see" the mind "reaching out to try and approach the sound"; this is the kind of attachment that arises in the sense door process. At this point, the object has not been fully framed out of its background environment; it has not been named, previous associations with this object have not been made. All this framing, naming and associating arises during mind door processes subsequent to the sense door process. So most of what we are referring to when we say "liking / disliking" really arises as part of a mind door process, at which point the intrinisic desireability / undesireability of the original sense door object has long since been covered over. The texts typically uses visible objects as an example of a sense door object. This gets a bit confusing when trying to explain intrinsic desireability / undesireability, so I will use a tactile object as my example of a sense door object. Citta #1 Past Bhavanga ====================== The tactile object has arisen but the flow of cittas has not yet taken any notice of it. If the tactile object is not "very great", then there could be many past bhavangas before the flow of cittas take any notice of the object (there will always be at least one past bhavanga). If there are two or three past bhavanga before the cittas take notice of the tactile object, then the object is called "great"; more than this and the object is termed slight or even very slight. This division as to "very great", "great", "slight" and "very slight" depends on the "strength" of the object and the direction of attention. For example, the tactile object of my bottom touching the chair is normally a slight or very slight object, except when attention is directed here. Of course, if there were a tack on my chair, this would be a strong tactile object. The tactile object already has its intrinsic desireability / undesireability defined, but since the cittas are not taking any notice of the tactile object, it is irrelevant to the citta process at this point. Citta #2+ - Vibrating Bhavanga ============================== The flow of bhavanga cittas has been disturbed by the tactile object. The commentaries use the analogy of rice on the skin of a drum being distrubed "indirectly" when a finger taps the drum. The finger does not directly touch the rice, but the vibrations from the finger do impact the rice. There is only one vibrating bhavanga and since the tactile object is not the object of the citta, the desireability / undesireability of the tactile object is irrelevant to the citta process at this point. I have labeled the virbating bhavanga as citta 2+ to indicate that it may be the second citta in the process (very great object) or it could be the third / fourth (great object) or even further along (slight / very slight object). Citta #3+ - Arresting Bhavanga ============================== This is the final bhavanga citta. As a runner always takes one more step when they cross the finish line, the flow of bhavanga has "momentum" which carries forward the flow and causes one last bhavanga to arise. Citta #4+ - Adverting ===================== This is the first citta taking the tactile object as its object. The remaining cittas in the process will all take the tactile object as their object. Since the citta is now taking the tactlile object as its object, the intrinsic desireability / undesireability of the tactile object can impact the flow of cittas. In the list of 89 or 121 cittas, there is only one mental state which performs the function of adverting. It is kiriya (functional - not causing kamma, nor the result of past kamma). This citta has neutral feeling. The function of this citta is to advert the flow of the citta process to take the tactile object as object. Note ==== Now that we are involving the tactile object into the citta process, we need to gvie an example of intrinsic desireability / undesireability. The Visuddhimagga (XVII 127 and elsewhere) list four types: - Desireable (ati-ittha) - Desireable neutral (ittha) - Undesireable neutral - Undesireable (anittha) When it comes to differentiating the flow within the sense door process, there is no difference between undesireable neutral and undesirable. Here are some possible examples with tactile objects: - Desireable: Sensationg of a warm bath - Desireable neutral: Sensation of a cushion under my bottom - Undesireable: Sensation of a tack under my bottom These sensations are termed thus because "normal" people (majjhima- satta; see p172 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) would consider them this way. Citta 5+ - Sense Consciousness ============================== This is the raw act of sensing (touch in this case). Conditions which support the arising of this citta include: - Falling away of the adverting citta - Door at which the object appears (body in this case) - Intrinsic quality of the object - Kamma from some past action (this is a vipaka / resultant citta) If the tactile object is the sensation of a warm bath or a cushion, then this is a condition for the arising of kusala kamma and a "wholesome resultant" (kusala vipaka) citta will arise. If the tactile object is the sensation of a tack under my bottom, then this is a condition for an "unwholesome resultant" (akusala vipaka) citta to arise. The "wholesome resultant" and "unwholesome resultant" cittas do not have any ethical qualities themselves (they have no roots). The only difference between them is the intrinsic nature of the object and the type of kamma (kusala or akusala) which caused them to arise. Citta 6+ - Receiving ==================== The path of cittas has been split at the previous citta according to the intrinsic nature of the object. The path remains split at the time of the receiving citta. A warm bath or a cushion will lead to a "wholesome resultant" receiving citta while a tack will lead to an "unwholesome resultant" receiving citta. Like a butler, the function of the receiving citta is to make an initial acquaintance with the object and receive the object into the sense-door process. This citta is accompanied by neutral feeling. Citta 7+ - Investigating ======================== The investigating mental state examines the object, looking for distinguishing marks indicating that the object has been perceived before. At this point, the path is further split: - Warm Bath: Kusala vipaka investigating citta with pleasant feeling - Cushion: Kusala vipaka investigating citta with neutral feeling - Tack: Akusala vipaka investigating citta Citta 8+ - Determining ====================== The various paths converge to a single citta. The previous three cittas (sense-consciousness, receiving and investigating) were resultants (vipaka) of the same past action. The function of the determining citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the object. This citta is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma or its result. Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention controls the arising of javana cittas which create new kamma. This citta arises with neutral feeling. Citta 9+ - Javana ================= This is where kamma is created. These cittas only arise for a very great object and for a great object (not for a slight object nor a very slight object). It is our accumulations / tendencies / habits which determine the type of javana cittas to arise (kusala or akusala, which roots, etc.). If there is a mismatch between the intrinsic nature of the object and the type of javana citta, then this is called a "perversion of perception" (sannavipallasa). Examples of this are: - An attachment rooted citta with an object of the tack sensation - An aversion rooted citta with an object of a warm bath sensation or cushion sensation Conclusion ========== Evan, this is probably far more detail than you wanted. However the conclusion is that intrinsic nature of the sense object does not fix the type of javana (kamma creating) citta. However, a mismatch is called a "perversion of perception". Metta, Rob M :-) 48898 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Robert, Could you at least reference one of your discussion threads which talks about this because I couldn't find this when I did a search. It would be for my benefit to understand this correctly. Also, you have yet to quote a Theravada text which defines the "beauty aspect" of an object. This may also help my understanding. With Metta, Evan Dear Evan, I think everything you wrote above is wrong. But I have written about this before and found, like many discussions on dsg, it leads to more entrenched wrong view as most members disregard the Theravada texts. I leave it as it is. Robertk 48899 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:00pm Subject: Beauty Evan_Stamato... Because of my recent discussions on this forum, I have a question that will cut through much discussion and save much of my time (and probably save me getting RSI) if answered either one way or the other. What is beauty? I say that beauty does not exist and that is why I have the discussions I am having at the moment. But that can easily be stopped if just one person can answer the above question. My point of view is that an object is considered to be beautiful by some but not by others merely due to its shape or colour (let's just stick to the eye sense door and physical objects for the purpose of this discussion as it will also apply to the other senses as well). Therefore shape and colour are the intrinsic attributes that a physical object can possess. So, change the shape/colour of the object and a different set of people will see the object as beautifyl/ugly. Keep the shape the same and the colour the same, and the "beauty" of the object then depends on "who" looks at it and at what time (because the being's concept of beauty changes over time). My conclusion therefore is that the object does not possess beauty but rather beauty is created by the mirriad of mind processes after the object comes into contact with an observer. If that is not the case, then beauty must be an attribute of the object and therfore must be as obvious as the object's shape or colour. So, can anyone tell me what beauty is? With Metta, Evan 48900 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Larry and Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Evan: "Surely the desirability or otherwise of an object can only be > determined once the likeability or otherwise of the object is > determined." > > Hi Evan, > > I'd like to add one small point to the discussion. Society determines > the desirability of an object. You don't really have much say in the > matter. For purposes of satipatthana it is irrelevant. It is simply an > indication of the over-arching ethical determinancy of kamma. Even the > arahants don't fully understand kamma. It is no mystery how desire is > habit forming and destructive, but it is a mystery how a desire today > will result in a kick in the shin in a future life. ===== Sorry, I disagree (a bit). A sense object has a quality of anittha, ittha or ati-ittha independent of society, independent of individual and independent of kamma. I use the Pali terms to avoid the English associations of "undesireable characteristic" (anittha) with "aversion" (dosa) and "unpleasant feeling / displeasure" (domanassa). If an individual has an aversion rooted citta (with unpleasant feeling) with a ittha object or ati-ittha object, then this mismatch is called perversion of perception. Perversion of perception happens all the time for us uninstructed worldlings (see commentary to Mulapariya Sutta). Similarly, if an individual has an attachment rooted citta (with neutral or pleasant feeling) for an anittha object, then this mismatch is also called perversion of perception. Society influences the individual's accumulations. Past actions influence an individual's accumulations. The type of kamma-producing citta is conditioned by accumulations (through natural decisive support condition). I agree that the detailed workings of kamma are unknowable (AN IV.77) but I don't see the link with intrinsic nature of sense objects. Metta, Rob M :-) 48901 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Evan, I am very sorry. I sincerely wanted to help you, but my answer was so technical that it was not of much help at all. I hope that I haven't dampened your enthusiasm! I will try again, this time without so much jargon :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Thanks for trying to explain it to me. Your resonse had explained the > process in great detail and highlights the fact that I need to continue > reading the Visuddhimagga and study it carefully with regards to the > sense door process you have described below. ===== Sorry, reading the Visuddhimagga or CMA won't really help as they don't clearly explain this particular point. It is also covered in the Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani, commentary to the Vibhanga) but that text won't help a lot either. I suggest that we work it through together on DSG and then when you do read those texts it will be a lot clearer what they are saying. ===== > I still don't see how > desirableness/undesirableness can be an attribute of the object as it is > something that is determined by cittas after contact so I need to study > this further. ===== Ah-ha! This is the first misunderstanding! I suspect that the confusion is arising because the English words are almost the same. Let me try to clarify with some definitions (inserting a bit of Pali): Undesireable / Desireable / Very Desireable ------------------------------------------- - Pali is anittha / ittha / ati-ittha - Only used to describe rupas (sense objects); not associated with mental states - Intrinsic characterisitic of the sense object (even before it is sensed) Desire / Aversion ----------------- - Pali is lobha / dosa - Roots of mental states; not associated with rupas - Only arise in kamma-creating mental states Pleasant / Unpleasant / Neutral ------------------------------- - Pali is somanassa / upekkha / domanassa - Feeling associated with a mental state; not associated with rupas - Arise in all mental states Remembering these definitions, here are some true statements that might help (or they might confuse further :-) ): - A desire-rooted mental state can have either pleasant or netural feeling but never unpleasant feeling. An aversion-rooted mental state will always have unpleasant feeling. The root (desire / aversion) and the feeling (pleasant / unpleasant / neutral) are independent of the intrinsic nature of the sense object (Undesireable / Desireable / Very Desireable). - A desireable object can be the object of a desire rooted mental state or an aversion rooted mental state. - If a desireable object is the object of an aversion rooted mental state, this situation is called "perversion of perception" Going back to my earlier example, the sensation of sitting on a tack is inherently undesireable (anittha). This definition is independent of the society or the individual. It is independent of the mental states. If an individual has attachment-rooted mental states when the object is the sensation of sitting on a tack (i.e. a masochist), then this is a situaiton called "perversion of perception". Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 48902 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - Just one comment inserted below. In a message dated 8/16/05 8:26:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: Evan, here's a way to look at the matter that can make the intrinsic pleasantness or unpleasantness or neutrality of a sense object seem plausible: It is a matter of what one means by a "sense object". The chocolate taste that I experience is not the same sense object as the chocolate taste that someone else experiences, not, for that matter, do I experience the same chocolate taste at different times. A chocoate taste experienced by a particular person at a particular time is not something "out there" or objective, but is a specific internal sensation (rupa) of such a nature that it is felt ("vedanized") in a specific way - as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. One person's kammic tendencies may be such that typically pleasant chocolate tastes arise in the experiential stream, and another person quite the opposite. We seem to think that there is a unique, objective thing that is chocolate taste. But instead, one could say that there arise many different chocolate tastes, even in the same mindstream, some to be experienced as pleasant by the operation of vedana, some unpleasant, some neutral, depending on the particular chocolate-taste-rupa that arises, determined in part by kamma. So, when we find chocolate distasteful, we can say that that chocolate taste is a different phenomenon than the pleasant chocolate taste that arose an hour ago. (Many factors besides kamma, of course, can condition whether it is a pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sense-door object that arises on a given occasion.) Evan: Thanks for adding another dimension to the discussion, Howard. I agree that there is no attribute called chocolate taste. what one identifies as chocolate taste will be different depending on one's tase sense door and one's habitual mind both of which are conditioned by kamma. However, there is a taste attribute. This is all that can be said of a taste sense object. This can be sensed and recognised as such but to go further to classify it as chocolate taste or pleasant/unpleasant taste is going too far. See my response to Sarah regarding my personal experience with sound as I was meditating. In fact what I didn't mention was that the sound was so sudden and so loud that in the "normal" state of existence, I would definitely have been startled out of my whits by the sound. However, because I was viewing sound as sound (and I think this is what the Buddha meant when he says things like seeing body in body, etc., it is just seeing it as it is) it has no effect on me because I stopped the creating of any mind chatter once sense consciousness arose. Imagine if we could always see all sensory input as it is - once sense consciouness arises, that is as far as it goes. There would be no fear, no like/dislike, no attraction/aversion, maybe even no self - maybe this is how an Arahat sees the world at all times. I could only guess at that. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The vedanic tasting of a rupa is different from the mere experiential presence (vi~n~nana) of the rupa, and the reaction of liking or disliking it is yet another activity. The question is whether the rupa itself determines how it will be felt (as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral). The Abhidhammic position, as I understand it, is that a particular rupa that arises can be felt in only one way, as determined by the rupa. But *which* particular rupa, for example one to be felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, arises is determined by a confluence of conditions, including past kamma. So, it is not that a rupa arises and because conditions A,B, and C are in effect, that rupa is experienced as pleasant, but rather it is that because conditions A, B, and C are in effect, a particular rupa that can only be experienced as pleasant arises. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Whether or not what I'm presenting here is fact, I cannot say. I'm merely pointing out that there *is* a scenario that makes the Abhidhammic take on this point understandable. Evan: Great! That means there is an opportunity for us to try to work it out together. With metta, Howard ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48903 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 RobM: "I disagree (a bit). A sense object has a quality of anittha, ittha or ati-ittha independent of society, independent of individual and independent of kamma." Hi Rob, I disagree. Society determines that a certain kind of paper called money is desirable. Kamma determines who gets it. But, until someone "gets" it, it is not kamma result. Larry 48904 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) corvus121 Hi Herman I've snipped to your questions below and added comments. Please take all my comments with the affection intended but not always clearly displayed through the magic screen. (-: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Let me be the first to say I know nothing > about arahants. See how good I am :-) > > Having said that, arahants play a major role in the Theravadan scheme > of things. What I know about them, I deduce from what I have read > about them. Would you say what I wrote to Kel (quoted below) is > incorrect? I am more than happy to be corrected, and certainly not > clinging to any definition, with or without conceit. > > "I was thinking in terms of the arahant's mindstream being karmically > neutral ie kiriya cittas only. The arahant does not grasp at or > attribute meaning or purpose to the world, nor do they operate in > terms of either kusala or akusala." > > If this description is correct, aren't arahants, then, purposeless, > intentionless, volitionless? AT: ... or, in other words, in what sense can arahants be understood as being without purpose? I don't know. These are all words and definitions to me. Does everything in samsara need to display a purpose? And does the definition of that purpose always run as follows: "the purpose of X is to ..."? Herman, does this sort of reflecting on the Dhamma "rouse" you to joy/delight, the purpose of which is to lead to concentration and Nibbana (as per your recent explanation of the purpose of Dhamma)? I wonder why it doesn't rouse me too. For me, it leads merely to thinking and I don't sense any understanding arising as a result. That doesn't mean I "control" myself and never do it. Thinking is conditioned and anatta. > On most points, I agree with you, strongly. But one things concern me. > Are you suggesting we second-guess at the intentions behind the > original spoken word? A bit risky if we take it beyond as literal a > translation as we can get. Very risky, if not downright dangerous, if > we read the Suttas in the light of Abhidhammic conceptions of > conditionality and anatta. I hope it is clear that in the study of any > body of developing thought, that it is quite appropriate to look for > the roots of the later developments in the former developments, but > not vice versa. AT: I'm out of my depth here, Herman, because I am not sufficiently familiar with the Pali language or indeed any language that uses case. It has been suggested to me by people more familiar that there is scope for technical debate. I also saw an interesting TV documentary recently on the specialist debates over the translation of artifacts with writing claiming to relate to Jesus and whether a language usage can be deemed not in conformity with other usages at the time of Jesus or whether the "new" usage simply becomes part of the body of evidence re language usage at that time. Get it? There's actually a technical debate over what is a former development and a later development! In summary, I'm not confident that your opinions expressed above are watertight. And I do think the safest way to read the suttas is in the light of established core teachings about which dating is not in issue i.e. anatta and conditionality. To me, the Abhidhammic explanation of those teachings is more likely to be the authentic one than one proposed by a modern scholar using materials known in the modern era. Don't know for sure though ... > > As a technical point, doesn't any understanding of conditionality > require a correlation of events outside of the present moment? How > does or can the story of the conditional link between B occuring and > A being thus affected be a matter of direct knowing in the present? AT: Another technical avenue to explore. As you well know, the Abhidhamma provides an explanation for this. But reciting that explanation to you is like casting seed on stony ground because you are not receptive to Abhidhammic explanations. Is that seed wheat or a weed? Again, can't say for sure but I feel confident that it is wheat (pardon the Biblical allusions). (-: > This post started of with Arahants, I'd like to finish off with > Sotapannas. Again, I know nothing about them except for what I read. > Lately we've had a plethora of definitions of what a sotapanna is, no > doubt to prove very important points. I am no different :-) > > In AN V.179 the Buddha explains to Sariputta the criteria which need > to be met before a householder can rightfully speak of him/herself as > a stream-winner. These criteria include "that he obtains at will, > without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in > the here & now". > > I want to focus on the formulation "at will", which is not uncommon in > the Suttas. What does it mean to be able to do something at will, > without hardship, without difficulty. It means that when the will > arises to do something, or to have a state of mind, there is a knowing > of how to do it or achieve it, followed by the doing. If there is no > knowing how, there will be suffering. In such a case, the will is > there, but not the way. > > Now to refer it back to what you wrote. > > If there is straying, and the understanding arises that there is > straying, and the will arises to refrain from straying, and there is > no knowing of how to stay with the present moment, there is more > suffering. In technical terms, if you cannot stay in the present > moment, you're stuffed. That's descriptive. The following is prescriptive. > > > "Bhikkhu, I have taught you how, much learning is done, much teaching > is done, much reciting is done, much thinking is done and the living > according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have done what a Teacher has to > do to his disciples out of compassion. These are roots of trees and > these are empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent and > later regret. This is our advise." AT: Herman, don't be mesmerised by the language. Go to the meaning behind the language. Have you not said many times that language is such an imperfect tool (or words to that effect)? Don't let the language be rose-coloured spectacles covering your eyes any more than it has to be. When reflecting on the meaning, use the big picture: How are these words to be understood in light of anatta? How are these words to be understood in light of conditionality? I'm being cheeky here (so get ready for a laugh) but sometimes you can sound a bit like a nit-picking lawyer! But even nit-picking lawyers (like meself) have been trained to read words, not by the dictionary, but by the overall context. Sometimes the law isn't such an ass after all! Nice chatting with you Herman. Best wishes Andrew T 48905 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beauty lbidd2 Evan: "What is beauty". Hi Evan, According to Buddha dhamma beauty is kusala citta (aka virtue). Additionally, beauty as kamma result is whatever experience society in general likes. Beyond that beauty is what a person likes, or beauty is the object of like, or beauty is like/love. Larry 48906 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Larry, Intrinsic quality only relates to sense objects. Things like paper, money and wealth are concepts. They are not sense objects. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > RobM: "I disagree (a bit). A sense object has a quality of anittha, > ittha or ati-ittha independent of society, independent of individual and > independent of kamma." > > Hi Rob, > > I disagree. Society determines that a certain kind of paper called money > is desirable. Kamma determines who gets it. But, until someone "gets" > it, it is not kamma result. > > Larry 48907 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:13pm Subject: Re: Beauty robmoult Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Because of my recent discussions on this forum, I have a question that > will cut through much discussion and save much of my time (and probably > save me getting RSI) if answered either one way or the other. > > What is beauty? > ===== "Beauty" is a very broad term. The Buddha said that the Dhamma was "beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful at the end". In this case, the Buddha used the Pali word "kalyana" but there are many other words which are also translated as "beauty". In MN13, the Buddha referred to beauty and loveliness of a woman and used the term "vanna" (colour - of skin). Can you help by giving a more speficic defintion of what you are meaning by "beauty". Metta, Rob M :-) 48908 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Hi Rob, I wasn't giving up but putting it aside until I had done more reading and understanding of the subject. However, since you brought up the crux of the matter, let's discuss it a little further. Everything else you have said about Desire / Aversion and Pleasant / Unpleasant / Neutral I agree with and was sort of saying but not as clearly as you. That is why I made the comment below. The detailed process you described I understand on an intellectual level and will not disagree with it. However, the comment I make below is exactly where my confusion lies and that is why I asked the question (and the more general question about beauty). What you and others have been trying to say is that a sense object, for example a visual sense object can have the obvious visual inherent properties such as shape and colour but in addition all sense objects (visual or otherwise) also have an attribute of desirability whose 3 different states can be Undesireable / Desireable / Very Desireable. So, I understand what you are saying but my question is: If I change the shape of an object, I change its desirability, hence a sharp pointy object being sat on is less desirable than a nice round fluffy cushion shaped object (going back to your example of tactile objects). I can see where the shape attribute of the object is but I can't understand what or where or how the desirability attribute manifests itself on an object. If you can explain that, it will help with a lot of my confusion. And thanks for being patient with my misunderstanding. With Metta, Evan ===== > I still don't see how > desirableness/undesirableness can be an attribute of the object as it is > something that is determined by cittas after contact so I need to study > this further. ===== Ah-ha! This is the first misunderstanding! I suspect that the confusion is arising because the English words are almost the same. Let me try to clarify with some definitions (inserting a bit of Pali): Undesireable / Desireable / Very Desireable ------------------------------------------- - Pali is anittha / ittha / ati-ittha - Only used to describe rupas (sense objects); not associated with mental states - Intrinsic characterisitic of the sense object (even before it is sensed) 48909 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 0:07am Subject: Re: is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I wasn't giving up but putting it aside until I had done more reading > and understanding of the subject. > > However, since you brought up the crux of the matter, let's discuss it a > little further. > > Everything else you have said about Desire / Aversion and Pleasant / > Unpleasant / Neutral I agree with and was sort of saying but not as > clearly as you. That is why I made the comment below. The detailed > process you described I understand on an intellectual level and will not > disagree with it. However, the comment I make below is exactly where my > confusion lies and that is why I asked the question (and the more > general question about beauty). > > What you and others have been trying to say is that a sense object, for > example a visual sense object can have the obvious visual inherent > properties such as shape and colour but in addition all sense objects > (visual or otherwise) also have an attribute of desirability whose 3 > different states can be Undesireable / Desireable / Very Desireable. ===== Clarification: visible object is that which presents itself to the eye in one instant. I think of it like a photograph or a frame of a movie film. Recognition of colour (vannasallakkhana), grasping the shape (vatthugahika), recognizing the shape (vatthusallakkhana), grasping the name (namagahika) and recognizing the name (manasallakkhana) are mind door process which follow the sense door process. So what you have called "inherent properties" are in fact derived by mind door processes and are "added onto" the visible object by mind door processes. It is for this reason that I avoided using a visible object as an example of inherently undesireable / desireable / very desireable objects. I am of the opinion (though I cannot find any textual support) that visible objects are almost all "desireable" (i.e. they are "desireable" because the mind likes to receive sense objects). I cannot think of how a visible object could be "undesireable" or "very desireable". ===== > > So, I understand what you are saying but my question is: If I change the > shape of an object, I change its desirability, hence a sharp pointy > object being sat on is less desirable than a nice round fluffy cushion > shaped object (going back to your example of tactile objects). I can see > where the shape attribute of the object is but I can't understand what > or where or how the desirability attribute manifests itself on an > object. > > If you can explain that, it will help with a lot of my confusion. And > thanks for being patient with my misunderstanding. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 48910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, When I tell Lodewijk what you have written, he always says: Howard has a point. I am still reflecting on what you wrote, and I try to find other approaches to your points which is also a good thing for me. Tomorrow morning early we go walking for three days and then Lodewijk has more conditions for discussing Dhamma. I appreciate it if you can give us more pointers for discussion, if you feel like it. I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to purer siila. I find it very meaningful that the sotaapanna observes the five precepts perfectly. We are not so far yet, but it is encouraging to know in what ways understanding of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment, anger, leads to a better moral conduct. When people listen to the audio of dhamma discussions, they may think, it is all about nama and rupa and what about conventional realities in daily life? The reason is, that the development of understanding of nama and rupa is a subtle, difficult Path. We need to listen again and again. But if you would be in Bangkok you would notice that the application of Dhamma in normal daily life is highly valued. I copied for Sarah (I will give it in India) a discussion with the other Lisa about her father, as I mentioned before. Kh. Sujin found her story really worth while. Lisa told us how she applies the Dhamma in her complicated relation to her father. Also people often ask Kh Sujin's advice about practical problems, but you will not hear about this on tapes. But I agree, I could explain more about the value of understanding nama and rupa with regard to siila. Another thing recently discussed: the fact that very kind people with a pleasant appearance are not necessarily people with right understanding. The appearance and behaviour do not always reveal what is going on inwardly. Nina. op 16-08-2005 18:09 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: .... The point also is, I > think, that there is a genuine reality to this "story" that is not covered by > "paramattha dhamma analysis". I don't see you as addressing that point. What > compassion do we, or even a Buddha, feel for paramattha dhammas? None, I would > say. > The compassion is for sentient beings. 48911 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:29am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 184 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 184 Intro. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the cetasikas of sankhaarakkhandha associated with the kiriyacittas of the arahats which are rooted in sobhana hetus. They can be associated with kamaavacara sobhana kiriyacittas, sobhana kiriyacittas of the sense sphere, with ruupaavacara kiriyacittas (ruupa-jhaanacittas) or with aruupaavacara kiriyacittas (aruupa-jhaanacittas). The arahats have, instead of kusala cittas, sobhana kiriyacittas. They do not perform kamma that could produce results. After their passing away there is no more rebirth for them. ------- Text Vis. 184: Those associated with functional consciousness with root-cause (73)-(80) are those with root-cause. Of these, firstly, those associated with the eight sense-sphere functional consciousnesses (73)-(80) are similar to the formations associated with the eight sense-sphere profitable (1)-(8), except for the abstinences (xxxiv)-(xxxvi). --------- N: The kiritacittas that are sahetuka, with roots, are sobhana (beautiful) kiriyacittas. Those of the sense-sphere are also called mahaa-kiriyacittas. Four types are accompanied by wisdom, four are without wisdom, four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by indifferent feeling, four types are unprompted and four types are prompted. Not all mahaa-kiriyacittas that arise are accompanied by wisdom. The mahaa-kiriyacittas are accompanied by the same cetasikas as those which accompany the mahaa-kusala cittas of the non-arahats. However, paññaa, sati, samaadhi, confidence and all sobhana cetasikas that arise with mahaa-kiriyacitta have reached full accomplishment. The abstinences do not accompany the kiriyacittas of the arahat, because they have eradicated all defilements. The Tiika uses the expression Œabstention because of eradication¹ (samucchedavirati) and explains that the arahats have reached fulfillment in the function of abstaining and that therefore it is said: Œexcept for the abstinences¹. ------------ Text Vis.: Those associated with the functional [consciousnesses] of the fine-material sphere (81)-(85) and the immaterial sphere (86)-(89) are in all aspects similar to those associated with profitable consciousness (9)-(17). ------------- N: The Tiika explains the expression Œin all aspects¹, that is, as to nature, object, and the way of occurring. Jhaanacittas are never accompanied by the viratis, the abstentions, because when there is absorption in the meditation subject there is no opportunity for abstention. ---------- Text Vis.: This is how formations should be understood as indeterminate. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the formations aggregate. ------------- Conclusion. The sobhana cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, are of many degrees. Those of the ordinary persons are of a lesser degree that those of the ariyans who have not yet reached arahatship, and those of the arahats have reached full accomplishment. Non-ariyans have confidence in kusala when they undertake daana, siila and mental development, but their confidence is not as firm as the confidence of the sotaapanna. The latter has an unshakable confidence in kusala, because he has developed paññaa to the degree of attaining enlightenment. He has no more doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. His kusala is purer than the kusala of the non-ariyan because he does not take kusala for self anymore. The sotaapanna observes the five precepts perfectly, he cannot transgress them anymore, but he can still engage in harsh speech and idle talk. However, he understands akusala citta as a conditioned element that is devoid of self. Right understanding of naama and ruupa bears directly on the observing of siila in daily life. The development of paññaa and all kinds of kusala by the ordinary person until full accomplishment has been reached takes aeons. However, this should not discourage us from beginning at this moment. We can see the value of right understanding of realities, even if it is only beginning to develop. ***** Nina 48912 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Robert, > > Could you at least reference one of your discussion threads which talks > about this because I couldn't find this when I did a search. It would be > for my benefit to understand this correctly. > > Also, you have yet to quote a Theravada text which defines the "beauty > aspect" of an object. This may also help my understanding. > > With Metta, > > Evan Dear Evan, Here is one post, there have been so many. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28414 From the Dispeller of Delusion(Sammohavinodani) p9-11: Rupa sadda (visible data, sounds)..there are none which are disagreeable that are born of profitable kamma; all are agreeable only....But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said 'There is no intrinsic agreeable and disagreeable'It is according to the likings of these or those 9individuals)[and the vitandavadin goes on to give an example of how to people in some distant place worms are considered a delicacy whereas most people find them repulsive , he also says the same about peacocks flesh]. He should be asked 'But how? Do you say that there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable?' 'Yes: I say there is not?..[it continues a little more and then refutes the vitantavadin (sectarian of another school)] ''It is through perversion of perception that the same object is agreeable for one and disagreeable for another. But there is the distinguishing of an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable'.......the elder Tipitaka Cula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to vipaka (kamma result) only, not according to javana (impulsion that follows the vipaka). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sannavipallasa)only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable; that lusts for the disagreeable and hates the same agreeable. Only by way of vipaka however is it rightly distinguishable. For resultant consciousness (vipaka citta) cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen. Although those of wrong view on seeing such exalted objects as the enlightened one(buddha) shut their eyes and feel domanassa (unpleasant feeling)[arising during the javana stage]and on hearing the Dhamma they stop their ears nevertheless their eye-consciouness, ear-consciousness , etc are only profitable kamma result (vipaka). Although dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung become joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable result."" ENDQUOTE I now answer some of the wrong ideas about this in the posts over the last week or so. 1. Dan suggested that Buddhaghosa said that it was by considering whether the average man(accountants etc) likes it or dislikes it that it can be known as intrinsically desirable or undesirable. And suggested that we can discount the commentaries based on this. In fact Buddhaghosa explains about the average man only to help the listener comprehend why some strange person might be entranced by a foul smell for example, just so that one can get a glimpse of what is agreeable or disagreeable. In fact in almost the next sentence he explains that in the ultimate sense it can only be known by kamma result. 2. Robmoult suggested that visible object is always desirable. Not so at all. Again we can't be certain about many objects but the sight of a large turd is inherently undesirable, only strange people would decorate their house with them for example. The ancient monks wanted to help with simple examples so that the nature of rupa and nama can be better understood. Most people can see that excrement has an unpleasant odour. However in another section of the scritures it is noted that if one feeds on perfumed food then the odour could be pleasant. Likewise in the case of the touch sensation while the excrement is still soft and warm it is easy to see that the experience is kusala vipaka through the bodysense. However if it dries out and becomes hard then the experience through the bodysense is likely to be akusala vipaka . Because in so many places the Abhdidhamma details that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa , ultimate realities, when the commentaries used the example of pig excrement these aspects were well understood by the listeners. However to explain Dhamma concepts such as pig excrement are very helpful to the one who can understand. RobertK 48913 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 486 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) Among these akusala stocks, nivarana or hindrances are like kilesa or defilements, anusaya or subliminal tendency they are aslo subtle even though they are not as subtle as anusaya dhamma. They arise when meditate. This happens. Because meditation may bring up good results such as jhaana or magga. Whenever there is possibility of arising of jhaana or magga these hindrances do arise and they start to obstruct the way and push back to non-meditative activities. These non-meditative activities may become worse and worse and finally they may lead to grosser forms of akusala. So it is better to remove the shoot before it becomes great plant and tree. To eliminate such subtle akusala one will have to meditate. As soon as meditate these hindrances arise and this is just normal. There are ways to deal with these hindrances. The first hindrance called kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous thinking' has been explained in the previous post. This hindrance does arise because nearly all beings are the prey of craving or tanha and with the background of tanha sensuous thinking or kaamacchanda nivarana has to arise in beings when they are meditating. This is especially true for beginners. Example: if breathing meditation is done they will watch their breathing activities and they will know incoming breath and outgoing breath. They may know this pair for up to say about 100 or 50 or 25. But after that sensuous thoughts start to arise in many different way. This happens. Because all puthujana are loaded with heavy tanha and with this background no puthujana has examption from this deterence or hindrance or obstruction. 'This is breath coming in -- this is breath going out -- this is breath coming in -- this is breath going out -- this is breath coming in -- this is breath going out -- infinity -- --> ' But as soon as calmness starts to arise there is ease. This ease may be attached to and again this would be linked to further attachment and this lead to craving, clinging and endless sankhaara or formations of different actions or kamma. Even though we are talking on hindrances these are actually 'the matters of meditation which are practical matters. So if someone has never done meditation with guidance it is hard to understand what these hindrances are like. Like kaamacchanda nivarana or sensuous thinking, there may arise byaapaada nivarana or 'ill-willed thoughts or thinking'. These are destructive thoughts. At least they destroy the current state of meditative achievement like calmness. Why? As soon as this hindrance arise there is hatred or dosa and this hatred has a nature of heating and this heat destroys the calmness of meditation and as soon as calmness is in disaster there cannot be any progress. In this way byapada nivarana or ill-will obstruct or hinder jhaana and magga naana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48914 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Rob, This is much better than "leaving it as it is". All I wanted to do was understand the concept of desirability of an object. The quote you have given is adequate enough to change my mind and understanding about the subject matter. I would like to ask you what is this "Dispeller of Delusion"? I would also like to thank all others for discussing this issue with me and would like to appologise for putting everyone to so much trouble. With Metta, Evan 48915 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... OK, I found it: Dispeller of Delusion is the Vibhanga and at $90US I think I'll leave it for now... With Metta, Evan 48916 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Evan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > OK, I found it: Dispeller of Delusion is the Vibhanga and at $90US I > think I'll leave it for now... Actually, it is the commentary to the Vibhanga written by Buddhaghosa. The Vibhanga is the second book of the Abhidhamma. Frankly, all the texts from Pali Text Society are on the pricey side. Metta, Rob M :-) 48917 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:53am Subject: Re: Beauty htootintnaing Dear Evan, Good question. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan wrote: Because of my recent discussions on this forum, I have a question that will cut through much discussion and save much of my time (and probably save me getting RSI) if answered either one way or the other. What is beauty? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will deal with it later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan wrote: I say that beauty does not exist and that is why I have the discussions I am having at the moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. 'Beauty' does not exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan: But that can easily be stopped if just one person can answer the above question. My point of view is that an object is considered to be beautiful by some but not by others merely due to its shape or colour (let's just stick to the eye sense door and physical objects for the purpose of this discussion as it will also apply to the other senses as well). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: By referring this, I think you mean 'i.t.tha' for 'beauty' and 'ani.t.tha' or 'ugliness'. I.t.tha is acceptable, pleasurable, beautiful, good, sound, agreeable thing while 'anittha' means the opposite. If this is true I will discuss in a separate topic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan: Therefore shape and colour are the intrinsic attributes that a physical object can possess. So, change the shape/colour of the object and a different set of people will see the object as beautifyl/ugly. Keep the shape the same and the colour the same, and the "beauty" of the object then depends on "who" looks at it and at what time (because the being's concept of beauty changes over time). My conclusion therefore is that the object does not possess beauty but rather beauty is created by the mirriad of mind processes after the object comes into contact with an observer. If that is not the case, then beauty must be an attribute of the object and therfore must be as obvious as the object's shape or colour. So, can anyone tell me what beauty is? With Metta, Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: After reading up all your post I realised that you are talking about the intrinsic nature of objects. You gave the example for object for 'seeing'. There are 5 physical objects. 1. vanno (form/shape/colour serving as rupaarammana or visual object) 2. saddo (sound serving as saddaarammana or auditory object) 3. gandho(smell serving as gandhaarammana or olfactory object) 4. raso (taste serving as rasaarammana or gustatory object) 5. photthabbaa (touches serving as photthabbaarammana or tangible obj) Here is my answer. Beauty is nothing. Beauty does not exist. As you said let us assume there is an object. Example is 'the sight of filth'. One sees it. It has size. It has form. It has shape. It has look of texture (not tactile). It has lustre. It has visible character. Nothing is beautiful or nothing is ugly at all. Filth eaters may assume 'that sight' as agreeable and accept it as beautiful sight. Filth disgusters may assume 'that sight' as disagreeable and accept it as ugly sight. Those who have penetrated all charactersitics of Dhamma will assume 'that sight' as 'the sight that arises from so and so ruupas'. They will know that 'that sight is not acceptable for those who disgust it and is acceptable for those who like it. For them they see it as it is. There is no beauty or no ugliness intrinsically. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 48918 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 487 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Hindrances' or 'obstructions' or 'obstacles' or 'nivaranas' are those dhamma that obstruct or hinder the progression to jhaana or magga. Nivarana = ni + avarana avarana means 'non-obstruction'. Varati means 'to obstruct'. Varana means 'obstruction'. Avarana means 'non-obstruction'. Ni + avarana = nii varana = nivarana. There are 5 obsturctions or 5 nivaranas. They are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obstruction by sensuous thoughts) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by ill-willed thoughts) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth and torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana (obstruction by wandering-worrying tho) 5. vicikicchaa nivarana (obstruction by suspicion) The first 2 nivaranas or hindrances have been discussed in the previous posts. There is the third nivarana or hindrance. It is thina- middha nivarana or sloth-torpor obstruction. Not all physical exhaustion are associated with these sloth and torpor and their related thoughts. And sloth and torpor may well be present even when one is awake. This means that not all awaken beings are free of sloth and torpor. Sloth and torpor do arise in daily life and they are routine matters. All most all people experienced sloth and torpor. These two dhamma are not exactly 'sluggishness' 'laziness' etc. They have their own characters. When they are there in our daily life they just perform their functions while we are committing different akusala. But sloth and torpor as 'hindrance' is much much more subtle then 'sloth and torpor in our daily life'. Because when meditators meditate in an awake period they start to arise and try to hinder the progress in jhaana or magga way. This obstruction especially arise when there seem to have a good concentration. Example is that one mindfully breathe in and mindfully breathe out and there seems nothing outside thoughts arise. But when the concentration becomes similar to near jhaana or magga these two dhamma start to hinder and obstruct. When they grow older they reach the degree that other akusala dhamma arise in mind and so other obstructions also happen. These other obstructions are sensuous thinking and ill-willed thinking. When these dhamma are there in mind they may accumulate and go to the degree that they become more grosser form of akusala. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48919 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala onco111 Hi RobertK, I always appreciate your patient and succint comments, which are so often exactly what your conversation partner needed to hear at that particular time -- the mark of a good teacher. I do have one correction to your recent comments, though. In particular, you wrote: > 1. Dan suggested that Buddhaghosa said that it was by considering > whether the average man(accountants etc) likes it or dislikes it that > it can be known as intrinsically desirable or undesirable. And > suggested that we can discount the commentaries based on this. I don't know, Rob. Did I really say this? I did write [msg. #48748]: "Or, in the Sammohavinodani, intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant objects are defined in terms what the common, average man would say are pleasant or unpleasant -- a very unsatisfactory explanation." By my recollection, Buddhagosa's "average man" discussion was part of his definition of intrinsically desirable/undesirable object -- very unsatisfactory for a number of reasons that we discussed a year or two ago. How something is defined is quite different from how that something can be known. Buddhagosa regularly makes that distinction, as he does in the "Dispeller" discussion of the "average man" (which you rightly point out). As for "discounting" the commentaries, I don't think that's accurate. I have tremendous respect and admiration of the commentaries and find them extremely valuable, especially for the reasons I listed in a number of posts. However, it is true that I don't put as much stock in the commentaries as in the primary texts because I don't think their expositions are as masterful (and cited some examples), and they lend themselves very well to intellectualizing the Dhamma, which I think is not helpful. Do you put them on the same level as the Buddha's explanations? Or do you "discount" them? Metta, Dan 48920 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:30am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Joop, ..... > I'm sorry to be correcting you, but you have misunderstood. In the > daily life practice, there is no trying of any kind. The idea is to > understand, right from the beginning, that there are only dhammas. > Dhammas don't try to arise, and there is no self that can try on > their behalf. :-) > > Ken H Hallo Ken I don't get te impression that you were correcting me, I'm not very sensible to corrections (except for the typos I made) You really have the belief that that's not possible to try anything (in the spiritual direction) in the daily life or in meditation (if there is anything different between tehse two) ? Than I simply don't agree with this aspect of your message (I think the rest is no problem, forgetting the not-important difference in interpretation of the folding legs) I did send you another message about the character of Abhidhamma that had to do with this one, did you notice? Metta Joop 48921 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: More on metta examples / was: The nature of Abhidhamma jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Thank you for asking; I would be glad to give my opinion on the > nature of Abhidhamma. > > I say it IS divine (sacred) in the sense that it is absolute reality. > It is not a mere 'way of teaching.' Paramattha dhammas (and ONLY > paramattha dhammas) are absolutely real. > > This brings me back to Nyanaponika and your comment in another post: > -------------------------------- > > "(and KenH, what he did to bring Theravada to the West was very > important)" > --------------------------------- > Yes, that is my understanding too. I am told that, in the beginning, > Nyanaponika was a faithful commentator and translator of the Pali > Canon, and he did a great deal of good work, but in later years, he > went his own way. This is typical of most modern-day commentators and > teachers of Buddhist meditation. They teach, not only what is in the > Pali Canon, but also what they think SHOULD BE in the Pali Canon (but > definitely isn't). > > Ken H Hallo Ken Sorry I didn't notice your reaCTIOn some minutes ago (I'm working on a computer in this week We don't agree about what 'ultimate' is, I think, but I will not repat myself. What you say about Nyanaponika is real very new to me. In what way is he not orthopdox enough. Perhaps te continuity of the Dhamma was the most important to him? Metta Joop 48922 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 8/17/05 4:29:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, When I tell Lodewijk what you have written, he always says: Howard has a point. I am still reflecting on what you wrote, and I try to find other approaches to your points which is also a good thing for me. ----------------------------------- Howard: Mainly, of course, Herman should be credited with raising this important issue. ----------------------------------- Tomorrow morning early we go walking for three days and then Lodewijk has more conditions for discussing Dhamma. I appreciate it if you can give us more pointers for discussion, if you feel like it. ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, I would hardly presume to give you "pointers"! But I do have an additional point or two to make. I do not, it happens, believe in the ultimate reality of beings. I believe that all that ever arises are sights, sounds etc. However, when relations among them are taken into consideration, the notion of beings isn't ill founded, and suffering is suffering even though it is impersonal (anatta) in actuality. There does seem to be a bit of "mystery" pertaining to the duality of sammuti (sp?) and paramatta, and I think a greater undersanding of the intimate rlatosip betwen th two is of grea importance. --------------------------------- I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to purer siila. ------------------------------- Howard: I think that is a *very* important matter to discuss!! ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48923 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father mlnease Hi Tep, Please excuse the delay--hope you don't mind my snipping a little: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father > Tep: You're right, Mike. Although it did not occur to me as a concept > before, it could be perceived that way. By the way, can 'one who is > dear' be considered as a sankhara? And sankhara is not a concept. I think it depends on context. Sankhaarakhandha refers to the cetasikas other than vedanaa and sa~n~naa as I recall; but it seems to me that in some contexts it just refers to what is conditioned (sankhata) and I think this might include conventions, designations or concepts. Not sure-- >> Tep: Even when the attachment is caused by the desire that is >> associated with the vipallasa-ditthi that "my daughter" may stay near >> forever? > > Mike: I may be over my head here--I know about sa~n~naa-vipallaasa > but not about vipallaasa-di.t.thi. I was thinking more of > sassata-di.t.thi, > the view that things last. Maybe it's all academic (for me) since I can't > tell a concept from a dhamma anyway. > > Tep: I might have confused you by writing 'vipallasa-ditthi' rather > than 'ditthi vipalasa'. I am sorry for that error. You're right that > 'sassata > ditthi' is an extreme view, but 'ditthi vipalasa' is one of the three > vipallasas (perversion of perception, of thought, and of views). Thanks for this about the vipallaasas, very interesting--where in the texts could I read more? I think my point was that there may be vipallaasa without di.t.thi so now I'm guessing that vipallaasa of perception or thought might occur without wrong view per se. I mentioned sassata di.t.thi with this in mind from the Dispeller (2281): "...For owing to the fact that all [wrong] views are included by the eternity and annihilation views [together], all these beings who hold [wrong] views are dependent on those two kinds of [wrong] view...'This world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two things, on esixtence and non-existence' (S ii 17); and here, "existence" (atthitaa) is eternity, "non-existence" is annihilation (uccheda)." > Mike: Well, what I was thinking was that unwise attention might take the > concept of the dear one as an object with attachment; and that wise > attention might instead take sight, sound, perception and so on (those > building blocks of 'a being') as evanescent objects with detachment > and maybe understanding. Then no condition (for that instant) for > perversion of perception, I would think. Still pretty academic! > > Tep: Very well said, Mike. I think Nina might want to comment on that > explanation. Thanks again Tep--I'd be glad to hear more. mike 48924 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? mlnease Hi Tep, Evan and Htoo, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? > Evan: > The Buddha never wished for anything because wishing does >>not achieve anything. He instructed and showed his "disciples" >>how to attain Nibbana. He instructed them to strive for the highest >>goal but he did not wish them to. > > Tep: I am in total agreement with you here. The key idea here is that > "wishing does not achieve anything". Yet, we still make wishes in all > social occasions - just to be polite ! I think we're all in agreement, just thought I'd remind you of a favorite sutta, Bhumija Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 126, dealing specifically with 'making a wish'. mike 48925 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father mlnease Hi Nina (and Tep), ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father > N: We cannot force ourselves to have wise attention, Clearly--though hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma and dhammas can condition its arising I think-- > nor force ourselves to > see only sight, Doesn't this occur for a time in jhaana bhavana? > sound, etc. > Also when there is unwise attention it is time for awareness and > understanding. In retrospect of course. > We can come to know ourselves more, our defilements, without > becoming discouraged about them. For me this seems to depend on how much I take them for 'mine'. Actually, discovering ever more defilements masquerading as kusala (or avyaakata?) kamma always inspires more confidence in the Buddhadhamma and less in my own 'intuitions'. mike 48926 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala mlnease Hi Evan, The two-volume Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodanii) is truly an amazing book. The Pali Text Society ( http://www.palitext.com/) is a wonderful organization and they offer a FREE book (of your choice) with an annual membership (£22 for one year), payable on-line by credit/debit card--as well as a 20% discount on all their publications. So if you can afford it, you could have the Dispeller at quite a considerable discount while supporting a great institution. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:22 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala > OK, I found it: Dispeller of Delusion is the Vibhanga and at $90US I > think I'll leave it for now... > > With Metta, > > Evan 48927 From: "Larry" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Intrinsic quality only relates to sense objects. > > Things like paper, money and wealth are concepts. They are not sense > objects. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > RobM: "I disagree (a bit). A sense object has a quality of anittha, > > ittha or ati-ittha independent of society, independent of individual > and > > independent of kamma." > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > I disagree. Society determines that a certain kind of paper called > money > > is desirable. Kamma determines who gets it. But, until someone "gets" > > it, it is not kamma result. > > > > Larry Hi Rob, You can describe paper as a sense object if you want to go to the trouble. It amounts to the same thing. Larry 48928 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > You can describe paper as a sense object if you want to go to the > trouble. It amounts to the same thing. ===== I am not sure we are on the same page here (pun!) Please clarify to help me understand better what you are saying. Metta, Rob M :-) 48929 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:17am Subject: Boubas and Kikis robmoult Hi Evan and all, I was reading a fascinating series of BBC radio transcripts dealing with how the mind works. http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/lecture1.shtml Here is a quote: "[Imagine two shapes, one] is a shattered piece of glass with jagged edges, the other is like an amoeba, it's got undulating curvy shapes. And one of them I'm going to call a bouba, and the other is kiki - which is which? Now the amazing thing is 98% of people will pick the shattered piece of glass with the jagged edges, and say oh that's a kiki, and the undulating amoeboid shape, oh that's a bouba, even though they have never seen the shape before." The author then goes on to explain how the wiring of the brain makes us all semi-synesthesiacs (partial cross-wiring of the senses). This works at such a fundamental level that it is easy to associate beauty with curves and non-beauty with jagged edges. Metta, Rob M :-) 48930 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:19am Subject: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Dear Friends, this was our evening reading. Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: Boubas and Kikis onco111 Rob, Interesting story! Then soto must be intrinsically beautiful and rinzai intrinsically ugly... and likewise for samatha and vipassana. Hmmmm... I understand the observation that the jagged edges of kiki go with the jagged sounds of 'kiki' while the smooth curves of boubas go with the (relatively) smooth sounds of 'bouba', but inference that jagged edges = non-beauty while curves=beauty? I don't buy it! Dan > The author then goes on to explain how the wiring of the brain makes > us all semi-synesthesiacs (partial cross-wiring of the senses). This > works at such a fundamental level that it is easy to associate beauty > with curves and non-beauty with jagged edges. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 48932 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/17/05 4:30:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Robmoult suggested that visible object is always desirable. Not so at all. Again we can't be certain about many objects but the sight of a large turd is inherently undesirable, only strange people would decorate their house with them for example. ========================== It would seem to me that visible object is more likely always, or at least usually, neutral. I believe it is our thoughts and associations pertaining to the visible object that may be otherwise. Associated with the sight of excrement is a disagreeable odor (and the memory of such) and other thoughts that are unpleasant. But the visual object, itself, seems to me to be eminently neutral! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48933 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:55pm Subject: Re: Beauty rjkjp1 Dear Htoo and Howard, My comments below, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >> Filth eaters may assume 'that sight' as agreeable and accept it as > beautiful sight. > > Filth disgusters may assume 'that sight' as disagreeable and accept > it as ugly sight. > > Those who have penetrated all charactersitics of Dhamma will > assume 'that sight' as 'the sight that arises from so and so ruupas'. > They will know that 'that sight is not acceptable for those who > disgust it and is acceptable for those who like it. For them they see > it as it is. > > There is no beauty or no ugliness intrinsically. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing ________________ Howard; It would seem to me that visible object is more likely always, or at least usually, neutral. I believe it is our thoughts and associations pertaining to the visible object that may be otherwise. Associated with the sight of excrement is a disagreeable odor (and the memory of such) and other thoughts that are unpleasant. But the visual object, itself, seems to me to be eminently neutral! With metta, Howard _________________ I am afraid both of you are in disagreement with the texts, and IMHO, how things really,really are. The citta that experiences any visible object is by nature always the result of either kusala or akusala kamma, if it is the result of kusla kamma then the object must be intrinsically desirable, pleasant (whatever word you like). It can never be neutral and has no relationship to whether the one who sees it finds it acceptable, not- acceptable, likeable or not likeable. All of these likes and dislikes etc come in during later mind-door processes. Also the fact that the feeling arising during the moment of seeing consciousness is always neutral is unrelated to the intrinsic nature of the object. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote The sutta then expalins that the opposite case applies for some heaven realms. In the human realms both pleasant and unpleasant objects are experienced. Robertk 48934 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong Views of a Father buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike - Thank you for the clear answers. You made a request : Mike: > > Thanks for this about the vipallaasas, very interesting--where in the texts could I read more? Tep: Anguttara Nikaya IV.49, Vipallasa Sutta: Perversions "Monks, there are these four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view. Which four? 'Constant' with regard to the inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. 'Pleasant' with regard to the stressful... 'Self' with regard to not-self... 'Attractive' with regard to the unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. These are the four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view." Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Please excuse the delay--hope you don't mind my snipping a little: > 48935 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beauty upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/17/05 4:56:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Howard; It would seem to me that visible object is more likely always, or at least usually, neutral. I believe it is our thoughts and associations pertaining to the visible object that may be otherwise. Associated with the sight of excrement is a disagreeable odor (and the memory of such) and other thoughts that are unpleasant. But the visual object, itself, seems to me to be eminently neutral! With metta, Howard _________________ I am afraid both of you are in disagreement with the texts, and IMHO, how things really,really are. The citta that experiences any visible object is by nature always the result of either kusala or akusala kamma, if it is the result of kusla kamma then the object must be intrinsically desirable, pleasant (whatever word you like). It can never be neutral ============================ I am perplexed, Robert. In "Cetasikas", Nina writes "Indifferent feeling accompanies vipakacittas such as seeing or hearing." And *my* experience confirms that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48936 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Evan_Stamato... Mike, Ah I didn't know that. I will consider it. I might wait until I can afford to buy more of their books (like the whole set!!!). That might not be as far off as I originally thought. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of m. nease Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2005 3:43 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala Hi Evan, The two-volume Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodanii) is truly an amazing book. The Pali Text Society ( http://www.palitext.com/) is a wonderful organization and they offer a FREE book (of your choice) with an annual membership (£22 for one year), payable on-line by credit/debit card--as well as a 20% discount on all their publications. So if you can afford it, you could have the Dispeller at quite a considerable discount while supporting a great institution. mike 48937 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Beauty htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Htoo and Howard, > My comments below, > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > >> Filth eaters may assume 'that sight' as agreeable and accept it as > > beautiful sight. > > > > Filth disgusters may assume 'that sight' as disagreeable and accept > > it as ugly sight. > > > > Those who have penetrated all charactersitics of Dhamma will > > assume 'that sight' as 'the sight that arises from so and so > ruupas'. > > They will know that 'that sight is not acceptable for those who > > disgust it and is acceptable for those who like it. For them they > see > > it as it is. > > > > There is no beauty or no ugliness intrinsically. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > ________________ > Howard; It would seem to me that visible object is more likely > always, or at > least usually, neutral. I believe it is our thoughts and associations > pertaining > > to the visible object that may be otherwise. Associated with the > sight of > excrement is a disagreeable odor (and the memory of such) and other > thoughts > that > are unpleasant. But the visual object, itself, seems to me to be > eminently > neutral! > > With metta, > Howard > _________________ > > I am afraid both of you are in disagreement with the texts, and IMHO, > how things really,really are. > The citta that experiences any visible object is by nature always the > result of either kusala or akusala kamma, if it is the result of > kusla kamma then the object must be intrinsically desirable, pleasant > (whatever word you like). It can never be neutral and has no > relationship to whether the one who sees it finds it acceptable, not- > acceptable, likeable or not likeable. All of these likes and dislikes > etc come in during later mind-door processes. > Also the fact that the feeling arising during the moment of seeing > consciousness is always neutral is unrelated to the intrinsic nature > of the object. > > In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) > "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. > There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, > never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever > sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile > object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is > undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote > > The sutta then expalins that the opposite case applies for some > heaven realms. > In the human realms both pleasant and unpleasant objects are > experienced. > > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your correction. So the object itself must have 'beauty' if it is? With respect, Htoo Naing 48938 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi Herman > > I've snipped to your questions below and added comments. Please take > all my comments with the affection intended but not always clearly > displayed through the magic screen. (-: > == Now look here, Andrew, if Sarah and Jon tell me, without prompting, that you and Howard from Oz are wonderful, kind and gentle people then you could scream and shout at me all day long, and I still would believe that you are kind and gentle and wonderful. But thanks for the warning :-) == > > > > If this description is correct, aren't arahants, then, purposeless, > > intentionless, volitionless? > > AT: ... or, in other words, in what sense can arahants be understood > as being without purpose? I don't know. These are all words and > definitions to me. Does everything in samsara need to display a > purpose? And does the definition of that purpose always run as > follows: "the purpose of X is to ..."? > Herman, does this sort of reflecting on the Dhamma "rouse" you to > joy/delight, the purpose of which is to lead to concentration and > Nibbana (as per your recent explanation of the purpose of Dhamma)? I > wonder why it doesn't rouse me too. For me, it leads merely to > thinking and I don't sense any understanding arising as a result. > That doesn't mean I "control" myself and never do it. Thinking is > conditioned and anatta. == It's probably a case of horses for courses, and demonstrates wonderfully that I would never be a good teacher. I'm probably better of just being a Pacceka-puthujjana, rather than trying to enlighten anyone :-) I'm saying all this because being purposeless, intentionless about the world or myself is about the most blissful state I can experience. When the flow of experience just happens, without the need to tinker with it, even when it presents as a pile of doggy-doo, that's about as good as it gets. I imagine the arahant to have this down pat :-) == > > > > As a technical point, doesn't any understanding of conditionality > > require a correlation of events outside of the present moment? How > > does or can the story of the conditional link between B occuring > and > > A being thus affected be a matter of direct knowing in the present? > > AT: Another technical avenue to explore. As you well know, the > Abhidhamma provides an explanation for this. But reciting that > explanation to you is like casting seed on stony ground because you > are not receptive to Abhidhammic explanations. Is that seed wheat or > a weed? Again, can't say for sure but I feel confident that it is > wheat (pardon the Biblical allusions). (-: > == Biblical allusions have their place, even on dsg :-) Please invite me to share some wonderful Old Testament snippets of widom. Please, please :-) == > > > > "Bhikkhu, I have taught you how, much learning is done, much > teaching > > is done, much reciting is done, much thinking is done and the living > > according to the Teaching. Bhikkhu, I have done what a Teacher has > to > > do to his disciples out of compassion. These are roots of trees and > > these are empty houses. Develop concentration do not be negligent > and > > later regret. This is our advise." > > AT: Herman, don't be mesmerised by the language. Go to the meaning > behind the language. Have you not said many times that language is > such an imperfect tool (or words to that effect)? Don't let the > language be rose-coloured spectacles covering your eyes any more than > it has to be. When reflecting on the meaning, use the big picture: == Vey wise words, Andrew. == > How are these words to be understood in light of anatta? > How are these words to be understood in light of conditionality? > == I think that whatever understanding on anatta and conditionality there is, whether is is microscopic or macroscopic, when one is intentionless towards the world, one is seated at the root of a tree (metaphorically) So there! :-) All the best to you and yours, Andrew Herman > I'm being cheeky here (so get ready for a laugh) but sometimes you > can sound a bit like a nit-picking lawyer! But even nit-picking > lawyers (like meself) have been trained to read words, not by the > dictionary, but by the overall context. Sometimes the law isn't such > an ass after all! > > Nice chatting with you Herman. > > Best wishes > Andrew T 48939 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 488 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Hindrances' or 'obstructions' or 'obstacles' or 'nivaranas' are those dhamma that obstruct or hinder the progression to jhaana or magga. There are 5 hindrances or 5 nivaranas. They are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obstruction of sensuality) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction of ill-will) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction of sloth-torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana (obstruction by wandering-worrying) 5. vicikicchaa nivarana (obstruction by suspicion) The first 3 nivaranas or obstructions or hindrances have been explained in the previous posts. The 4th nivarana or hindrance is uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. Uddhacca means 'agitation' 'excitement' 'distraction' 'upset' 'wandering'. When the mental state in in such situation of upset, distraction, wandering there are uddhacca cittas and they are wandering thoughts. This means that there are activities that the mind goes here and there, back and forth, from one place to another in the restless fashion. There are different forms of restlessness. In our daily life there are time when we are in the state of restlessness. Gross forms can be noticed in cases of grief reactions when someone dear has lost life. Restlessness does not arise at all time even in cases of akusala. Especially when there is interest there is no restlessness. Interest makes a good concentration while restlessness will not stay at an object for a long time. Restlessness or uddhacca in the form of obstruction or hindrance or nivara is much much more subtle than already described examples. When the practitioner starts to practise to attain jhaana or magga there will be some concentration. This happen because initially there is interest and this make a good concentration. As soon as a good concentration arises and when it is going to build as a good foundation for construction up to jhaana or magga then there arise this subtle form of restlessness as a hindrance. The mind may stand still at an meditational object. When still, the mind become happy, relaxed, and satisfaction arises. This satisfaction again leads to further outside thoughts away from the object of meditation. This is the first point that the mind start to wander. From that time uddhacca subtly comes in and then obstruct the progress to more stable concentration and then to arising of jhaana or magga naana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48940 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala egberdina Hi RobK, On one minor point I'm going to disagree with you. You didn't really expect anything else, did you ? :-) I'll snip the rest for brevity. > 2. Robmoult suggested that visible object is always desirable. Not so at all. Again we can't be certain about many objects but the sight of a large turd is inherently undesirable, only strange people would > decorate their house with them for example. > From experience, an infant needs to be taught not to eat worms, dirt, play with their poo. Anything the child can get its hands on will go into its mouth. I have known toddlers to have made rather fancy murals with their poo. (Not my kids) If there were not intrinsically undesirable objects, a parent could not teach a baby not to eat or paint with poo. What are the intrinsically undesirable objects that a baby understands? Pain, sudden loud sounds, sour and bitter tastes, and that's about it. Everything else is taught/learned. Except for maybe sexual orientation. Kind Regards Herman 48941 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala htootintnaing Dear Herman, I like your post. Especially (not my kid), :-)). There are artists like poo-painters, poo-sculpturers, poo-decorators. If intrinsically undesirable, these artists would not do their jobs, aren't they? All these poo-artists are pure and uninstructed and untaught yet children. Explosion, bitter taste, sour taste, pain, very bright light etc etc are intrisically undesirable objects that babyies perceive. Explosion-they shake. Bitter taste-they wink. Sour taste-they wink. Pain-they withdraw. Very bright light-they close their eyes. But poo-they play (may even happily). Ha ha (not my kid). With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > On one minor point I'm going to disagree with you. You didn't really > expect anything else, did you ? :-) > > I'll snip the rest for brevity. > > > 2. Robmoult suggested that visible object is always desirable. Not > so at all. Again we can't be certain about many objects but the sight > of a large turd is inherently undesirable, only strange people would > > decorate their house with them for example. > > > > From experience, an infant needs to be taught not to eat worms, dirt, > play with their poo. Anything the child can get its hands on will go > into its mouth. I have known toddlers to have made rather fancy murals > with their poo. (Not my kids) > > If there were not intrinsically undesirable objects, a parent could > not teach a baby not to eat or paint with poo. What are the > intrinsically undesirable objects that a baby understands? Pain, > sudden loud sounds, sour and bitter tastes, and that's about it. > Everything else is taught/learned. Except for maybe sexual orientation. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman 48942 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Hi Htoo, and others.. M: The five khandas are anicca, dukka, anatta. Still cetana exists. We can move an arm or a leg, or a thought, as we wish (to some degree, maybe not completely). The former position and the latter do not contradict. Even intention, cetana, will ..call it what you will, is anicca, dukkha anatta. It is based on causation. It does not contradict the teachings. what do you think? :) tc Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Difficult question. Cetana is also dukkha. 'We' 'arm' 'leg' are names even though there are ground-dhamma for these naming. So even when you are removing 'an arm', there is no 'you' and there is no 'amputated stamp'. But you will see 'the sight of amputated stamp' and it is still 'ruupa' or ruuparammana. It is not stamp etc. There is actually 'anatta' 'no control over dhamma-real dhamma'. Example; You would say 'I can control my breath. See me. Right now,I hold my breath for 2 minutes.' Yes.The whole event is true. I see that you can control your breath for 2 minutes. But I do not see 'any one' doing controlling breath. There is no 'you' who is controlling the breath (name). Just before you control your breath, there arise a mind having intention to do so. That mind create consciousness-born ruupa. Along with other ruupas this consciousness-born ruupa cause movements like contraction of some muscle related to controlling breathing movement. No control on dhamma. All are anatta. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48943 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: Boubas and Kikis robmoult Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Rob, > Interesting story! > > Then soto must be intrinsically beautiful and rinzai intrinsically > ugly... and likewise for samatha and vipassana. > > Hmmmm... I understand the observation that the jagged edges of kiki go > with the jagged sounds of 'kiki' while the smooth curves of boubas go > with the (relatively) smooth sounds of 'bouba', but inference that > jagged edges = non-beauty while curves=beauty? I don't buy it! ===== Sorry, that comment was more directed at Evan who has been talking about changing the shape of a visual object (I think it was adding jagged edges to make it less beautiful). If it doesn't make a lot of sense, never mind... I wrote that post at 2:00 in the morning, and I rarely make sense at that hour :-) I highly recommend reading the BBC Radio trascripts; a series of five lectures on how the mind works - fascinating stuff! Metta, Rob M :-) 48944 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 488 ) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (Ven. Samahita and all) - Have you reviewed the Useful Posts ? What are the keypoints of DSG's previous discussions on hindrances? >Htoo: >The mind may stand still at a meditation object. When still, the >mind become happy, relaxed, and satisfaction arises. This >satisfaction again leads to further outside thoughts away from the >object of meditation. This is the first point that the mind start to >wander. Tep: What do you mean by "outside thoughts"? Is 'dhammarammana' inside or outside? Why does "satisfaction" lead to "outside thoughts"? When 'the mind' starts to wander, whatelse, besides the outside thoughts, may make it wander too? What strategies do we have to guard the mind inward, most of the time? Are thoughts sankhara? Thank you for your post, Friend. Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Hindrances' or 'obstructions' or 'obstacles' or 'nivaranas' are those > dhamma that obstruct or hinder the progression to jhaana or magga. > > There are 5 hindrances or 5 nivaranas. > 48945 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 Rob: "Please clarify to help me understand better what you are saying." Hi Rob, You said paper isn't a sense object and I said it is if you describe it as a sense object. Bottom line: my position is that the fruits of kamma are conventional (beauty, power, wealth, etc.). Otherwise kamma is meaningless. Come to think of it, the roots of kamma are also conventional because they all assume a self. No self = no kamma. Larry 48946 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you for this. Yes of course, bright lights too. Very good. You Too Htoo are a funny man :-) Very Good Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > I like your post. Especially (not my kid), :-)). > > There are artists like poo-painters, poo-sculpturers, poo-decorators. > If intrinsically undesirable, these artists would not do their jobs, > aren't they? > > All these poo-artists are pure and uninstructed and untaught yet > children. Explosion, bitter taste, sour taste, pain, very bright > light etc etc are intrisically undesirable objects that babyies > perceive. > > Explosion-they shake. Bitter taste-they wink. Sour taste-they wink. > Pain-they withdraw. Very bright light-they close their eyes. > > But poo-they play (may even happily). Ha ha (not my kid). > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > > On one minor point I'm going to disagree with you. You didn't really > > expect anything else, did you ? :-) > > > > I'll snip the rest for brevity. > > > > > 2. Robmoult suggested that visible object is always desirable. Not > > so at all. Again we can't be certain about many objects but the > sight > > of a large turd is inherently undesirable, only strange people > would > > > decorate their house with them for example. > > > > > > > From experience, an infant needs to be taught not to eat worms, > dirt, > > play with their poo. Anything the child can get its hands on will go > > into its mouth. I have known toddlers to have made rather fancy > murals > > with their poo. (Not my kids) > > > > If there were not intrinsically undesirable objects, a parent could > > not teach a baby not to eat or paint with poo. What are the > > intrinsically undesirable objects that a baby understands? Pain, > > sudden loud sounds, sour and bitter tastes, and that's about it. > > Everything else is taught/learned. Except for maybe sexual > orientation. > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > > > Herman 48947 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: Did the Buddha ever wish that his disciples attain Nibbana? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo (Attn. Nina, Larry) - Thank you for your enthusiastic reply to my questions (and also thank you for your friendship). > > Htoo: May you all attain enlightenment knowledge the soonest. > > Tep: Thank you very, very much from the bottom of my heart for your > > great wish, Htoo. But, on a second thought, did our greatest teacher > > Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain Nibbana? Why or why > > not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > This is a hard quiz. I think our teacher, The Buddha, > > used 'appamaadena sampaadetha'. Encouraging 'not to forget what > > disciples should do'. > > > > I think there may be similar words for 'your question_did our > > greatest teacher Buddha ever wish that his disciples may attain > > Nibbana?'. I am not sure. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Perhaps, Nina and Larry might have some answer to give us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I hope so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > The Buddha preached the way to attain nibbana. The reason (as > you asked why?) may be to help out beings to attain nibbana (total > > extinguishment of all fire). Tep: No, Htoo, I didn't ask why the Buddha taught the way to Nibbana. I only asked if he ever wished that his disciples might attain Nibbana. We, the worldlings, are very fond of wishing each other almost anything we can imagine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. I am thinking the answer would be 'no'. Here I have a joke. In Myanmar, evil people use Myanmar idiom like 'send him to nibbana'. This means 'kill him'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > Yoniso manasikaara is done by panna. Panna is the first members > of 3. That is 'sati, viiriya, panna'. The 4th member is ekaggataa or > > samaadhi. As panna has been in the group, I put saddha in the 5th > > position. > > Regarding defence, I do not have direct references > > except 'abhidhammatthasangaha text'. All have left in my past. Tep: In the suttas it is often stated that yonisomanasikara is the primary source of all kusala dhammas, and that samma ditthi follows when one has right understanding of both kusala and akusala dhammas. For example, in Samma-ditthi Sutta, the great arahant Sariputta said : "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. " [DN 9] So it is clear that "perfect confidence in the Dhamma", or saddha bala, arises with samma-ditthi as the consequence of yoniso- manasikara of kusala/akusala dhammas. Don't you think so? Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Saddha as 'saddhaa bala' arise together with other bala dhammas. But there is a possibility that saddha arises without panna. It might not be bala dhamma. Upanisa sutta preached 'saddhaa' in the middle of 2 cycles of D.O. That is Mundane Dependent Origination and Supramundane Dependent Origination or Transcendential Dependent Origination. dukkha --> saddhaa --> piiti --> etc etc. You are right. But that saddha is much much more refined because of conditioning. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48948 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 488 ) htootintnaing Dear Tep and all, When I go on nivaranas, I mostly refer to meditation sections. See below for discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" tepsastri@y...> wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo (Ven. Samahita and all) - Have you reviewed the Useful Posts ? What are the keypoints of DSG's previous discussions on hindrances? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These Useful Posts sections are also my references. Especially I go there and check for 'English' equivalent of Pali words and then I check them against Pali English Dictionaries of different authors. and check again with teachings. Have I reviewed? Yes. Some. Keypoints? I did not look for any keypoints there. Please tell me what are keypoints of DSG's previous discussions on hindrances. I think DSGs did not talk on '6 hindrances'. They just discussed 5 hindrances. Did you see any suttas that say'6 hindrances'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >The mind may stand still at a meditation object. When still, the >mind become happy, relaxed, and satisfaction arises. This >satisfaction again leads to further outside thoughts away from the >object of meditation. This is the first point that the mind start to >wander. Tep: What do you mean by "outside thoughts"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is 'the point' why I have been persistently accused of bad user of English. Thanks. Now that there is a participant in this discussion I can explain what I mean by 'outside thoughts'. Please re-read above passage. 'The mind'(subject) may stand (verb) still (adverb) at a meditation object (phrasal adverb of position or place). 'Happy' 'relaxed' 'satisfied' are output of that mental state when 'the mind stands still at a meditation object'. Here you put '' -- '' where I did not use it at all. That is ''outside thoughts''. If you re-read above passage again, you will see that I said 'away from the object of meditation'. The FRAME OF REFERENCE is meditation object. As soon as a mind leaves the object of meditation then it is outside of that frame. So that thoughts are all ''outside thoughts''. This already answered your 2nd question below that is 'Is dhammaarammana inside or outside? This is language matter. I always try to check my spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. Regarding usage I may still need proficiency because this is not my primary language. English is not my mother-tongue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is 'dhammarammana' inside or outside? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This has been answered above. In the context, I did not say in my post whether dhammaarammana is inside or outside. What I was talking on hindrance is that_ when meditating(beginners) mind becomes still. But that stillness does not last long. It leaves the frame of reference that is the object of meditation. This leaving is because of thoughts not related to meditation. So these thoughts are outside thoughts. I am not discussing whether dhammaarammana or inside or outside. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Why does "satisfaction" lead to "outside thoughts"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Have you try yourself? If yes, did you remember when your section was successful (as you may say)? And did you remember when your section was not successful (asyou may say)? When not successful, why was that? Did your mind attend at the object of meditation all the time through out the section? There might exist 'partially successful'. When that happened,did you remember why did your mind, which was successfully attending at meditational object, leave the object of meditation and go away? The answer to your question: Craving or tanha. When craving is not recognised then outgoing thoughts do arise and destroy your meditation complely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: When 'the mind' starts to wander, whatelse, besides the outside thoughts, may make it wander too? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand your question. Are you asking 'What else may make it wander too?'? Outside thoughts are already wandering. Because they are no longer at the object of meditation. That is why I did not understand your question. But, I have a thought or idea that you must have been asking for dhamma like 'avijjaa' and 'tanhaa'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: What strategies do we have to guard the mind inward, most of the time? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Strategies: Strategy 1: Study dhamma so that we understand what they are Strategy 2: Study dhamma so that we understand what they are Strategy 3: Study dhamma so that we understand what they are ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Are thoughts sankhara? Thank you for your post, Friend. Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There may exist loopholes in your question. Because Pali word 'sankhaara' has many meanings. a) are thoughts sankhaara-kkhandhaa? Maybe and yes. Some thoughts do have bad feeling like depression or anger. Then it is vedana-kkhandha rather than sankhaara-kkhandha. But they co-exist. So I said 'maybe and yes'. b) are thoughts sankhaara dhamma? Maybe and yes. Pannatti may be said as thoughts. But they are not sankhaara dhamma. So I said 'maybe and yes'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48949 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 489 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Hindrances' or 'obstructions' or 'obstacles' or 'nivaranas' are those dhamma that obstruct or hinder the progression to jhaana or magga. There are 5 hindrances or 5 nivaranas. They are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obstruction of sensuality) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction of ill-will) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction of sloth-torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana (obstruction by wandering-worrying) 5. vicikicchaa nivarana (obstruction by suspicion) The 4th niivarana or hindrance is composed of 2 dhamma. One is uddhacca or 'wandering mind' and another is kukkucca or 'worrying mind'. Like 'wandering' or upset this dhamma kukkucca or 'worrying' also obstruct the progress to jhaana or magga. This means that when there is worry one cannot attain jhaana at all and when there is worry one cannot attain any of magga naana or path- knowledge. Because worrying already hinders or obstruct on the way to attainment of these higher dhamma. This worry or kukkucca is not like 'the worry of daily life'. The worry of daily life is grosser and more aggressive than niivarana dhamma kukkucca. Niivarana kukkucca is more subtle and sublime than other kukkucca. If this subtle form is not recognised there is danger of total destruction of the activities of following jhaana or magga path. When such subtle forms are not recognised, they grow bigger and bigger and finally they become grosser form and behave more aggresively. Kukkucca in its term means 'worry on what have been done that are bad things and worry on what have not done that are good things'. ''Kucchitam katam kukatam tassa bhavo kukkuccam''. Kucchita means 'contemptible' 'vile' 'bad'. Karoti means 'do' and 'kata' means 'done'. Katam means 'that has been done' or 'that have been done'. Kucchitam katam means 'things bad that have been done'. Ku is a interrogative pronoun. Kukata means 'what has been done'. Tassa shows 'possession'. Bhavo means 'existence' 'being' 'state' 'condition'. Kukkucca means 'the state of worry on what have done that are bad'. Another worry is that 'the state of worry on what have not done that are good when there were chances to do that good things'. As a subtle form kukkucca arises as hindrance and obstruct or hinder the way to jhaana or magga. When the practitioner is in the activity progressing to attainment of jhaana or magga there is calmness, easiness, tranquility. When these good dhamma are being sensed a thought may arise that these good things should have been done earlier than this time or now. So what were done when these good things had not been done in the past. There were many many bad things that had been done. Such and such bad things are not good and they might give rise to their effects in future and so on. In this way worry encroaches on the way to jhaana and then starts to obstruct not to progress. If worry is known truely as worry then worry stops to arise and wisdom that knows worry will be leading the mind and will burn all worries out. When wisdom or pannaa is enough to burn out all worries there will not be any more worry. As soon as the 1st jhaana arise all worries are suppressed. Worries are all eradicated by anagami magga naana or non-returner path- knowledge. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48950 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) corvus121 Hi Herman I am moved to disagree with only one thing in your post: I think you would make a *wonderful* teacher! I do see where you are coming from and appreciate your words. Must fly now ... Best wishes Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> It's probably a case of horses for courses, and demonstrates > wonderfully that I would never be a good teacher. I'm probably better > of just being a Pacceka-puthujjana, rather than trying to enlighten > anyone :-) > > I'm saying all this because being purposeless, intentionless about the > world or myself is about the most blissful state I can experience. > When the flow of experience just happens, without the need to tinker > with it, even when it presents as a pile of doggy-doo, that's about as > good as it gets. > > I imagine the arahant to have this down pat :-) >> I think that whatever understanding on anatta and conditionality there > is, whether is is microscopic or macroscopic, when one is > intentionless towards the world, one is seated at the root of a tree > (metaphorically) > > 48951 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:56pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 488 ) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I just hope that you will be more relaxed and trust me more as a dhamma friend, who will not ask questions in order to find faults in your statement. But if it ever occurred to you that some of my messages did show an intention to criticize your posts, then please accept my apology as many times as needed. I will be much more careful not to cause you to feel like that anymore. The followings are my comments. I am avoiding the ineffective in-line dialogue. -- Reviewing UPs is a good idea, but it is tedious. It is no fun to search UPs for information. -- If the previous posts discussed the five hindrances very well, then your job is easy : just talk about the sixth one only. -- So you say that "outside thoughts" are thoughts that wander away from the object of meditation, which is one of the four foundations of mindfulness. Fine with me. -- So you say you do not want to discuss whether dhamaarammana is inside or outside. Fine with me too. -- So you say that recognizing craving is the same as satisfaction. Indeed, you stated: "When craving is not recognised then outgoing thoughts do arise and destroy your meditation complely". But I don't have a clue what you meant, Htoo. -- O.K. you don't have a clue either when I say "When 'the mind' starts to wander, whatelse, besides the outside thoughts, may make it wander too?" Please allow me to explain. The question was asked at the time I didn't understand "outside thoughts". Now that I know what you mean, this question may be dropped. -- I asked you about strategies for guarding cognizance inward (so it stays with the object), and your answer was "Study dhamma so that we understand what they are". Please read the following sutta to find a better answer yourself: SN XLVII.10 Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta: Directed and Undirected Meditation. This sutta is outstanding in the sense that our Lord Buddha gave his meditation advice not only to his monks, but also to lay disciples (such as nuns), who dwelled in satipatthana (the four foundations of mindfulness). The advice is very clear to me(as measured by my own experience) that while the meditator contemplates a body in the body, a feeling in the feeling, and so on, ( being "ardent, fully aware, mindful — leading away the unhappiness that comes from wanting the things of the world"), yet his cognizance(citta) may sometimes go outward (rather than staying inward on the object of satipatthana). Then the meditator should "direct his mind to some satisfactory image(nimitta). When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated". This is "directed meditation". After his mind has become concentrated inward, he will no longer need the directed meditation -- the cognizance is now free, undirected. Now he dwells contemplting a body in the body, etc., by undirected meditation -- i.e. he does not have to direct the mind to any nimitta, therefore the meditation is called "undirected". -- So you say "maybe and yes" to the question, "Are thoughts sankhara?'. Thank you again for bearing with me. Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep and all, > > When I go on nivaranas, I mostly refer to meditation sections. > See below for discussion. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 48952 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:17pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) philofillet Hi James > I think that we have covered some of these areas before, in previous > discussions, but maybe a review would be helpful Yes, we've gone around and around on this but once more won't hurt. I'm going back to work tomorrow so I'll leave the last word to you and we can let it drop for a few more months or whatever... :) > Phil: The purpose of the Buddha's teaching isn't to be a better > person, I think. It's to disappear as a person. > > James: Well, even though I agree with the sentiment: Buddha's teaching > has to goal of release from samsara, I don't think that is going to > happen until you become a better person. Maybe you are thinking of > 'better person' in a non-Buddhist sense (good citizen, kind, generous) > but I am thinking of 'better person' in a Buddhist sense (wise, > content, unattached). Ok, I like that last bit. But I think most people think of better person in the conventional sense. That is what people who throw around brahma-viharas should be aware of. > Phil: I think that in the practice of brahma-viharas as it is taught > now there is too much of an emphasis on accumulating virtue, > accumulating the wholesome. > > James: I'm not sure what this means, but the Buddha taught the > Brahma-Viharas for a very specific purpose. The Brahma-Viharas > prepare the mind for insight and allow one to be reborn into the deva > realms if enlightenment isn't achieved. Ph: Interesting. I didn't know that. > Phil, you state that you aren't really that interested in > achieving enlightenment. Surely, you must know that after this > lifetime you are going to be reborn. If all you do is study this > Abhidhamma stuff, Ph: My main source of study is the samyutta nikaya. I find Abhidhamma very helpful for clarifying my understanding of suttas, but it is the suttas that are the most important for me at this time. (and) fail to build compassion and metta for others, then > your negative karma could take the upper hand and you could be reborn > into a state of woe. Ph: I disagree. I am so strongly rooted in greed (lobha) that "metta and compassion" are likely to be just more greed. There have been many evil acts in my lifetime, so while there is not point in regretting them or speculating on them, a rebirth in lower realms seems likely. I think a few moments of right understanding of a penetrative nature would be far more helpful than a lot more greed. When there is metta and karuna, and there certainly *is* metta and karuna at times, perhaps I will come to understand it, and it will have even more value than it does now. But sitting and generating lobha-rooted pleasant feelings will not do me any good in the lifetimes to come. I think it might make me a pig who likes to lie in warm mud. > People plan for their retirement and old age, > well I say that they should also plan for their death and >rebirth. Yes, though thinking too much about it is unwise. But no doubt that when the opportunity comes up to abstain from akusala, I abstain. Most of the time there is no control in this matter, but there are opportunities to abstain, and I abstain. You have helped me in this matter, off-list. I think it is impossible to *try* to accumulate more kusala. It is better to avoid accumulating akusala. Perhaps this is why in suttas the Buddha mentions this first. e,g, "avoid evil, do good, purify the mind" and "it is possible to eradicate the unwholesome - I wouldn't tell you to do it if it weren't" (paraphrase) He mentions this *before* he mentions "it is possible to cultivate the wholesome." > > Phil: Hopefully you know that selective reading of suttaas and > commentaries is Mara's way of getting you further wrapped up in yourself. > > James: Who told you this? Ph: Experience. I see the way certain suttas leap out at me. Why do they leap out at me? What do they leap out at? The ignorance and greed that are burning through me (and through all of us - see the Buddha's third discourse, "Burning") I think we should approach suttas with great care and humility, because where there is as much ignorance as there is, what will be reading the suttas? So I think the sobering fact is that just about anything we *do* related to Dhamma is likely to increase our ignorance, condition more ignorance, and lobha. I say this based on my daily reading of the Buddha's second (anatta) and third (burning) discourses. They are very sobering. They remind me that eradication of akusala and cultivation of kusala will take a long, long time. At least I understand that. It is a good beginning. I read this in a kids' story yesterday. "Confucious said that to know what you know and to know what you don't know is the characteristic of the man who knows." I feel confident and encouraged rather than discouraged by my growing understanding of the depth and pervasiveness of ignorance (moha) and greed (lobha.) I used Mara because I like the way you use Mara as a personification of greed, hatred and delusion. I think you are just about the only person who brings up Mara here. > > Phil: How can you claim to have better understanding that Buddhaghosa? > That's so silly. > > James: I don't claim to have 'better understanding' than Buddhaghosa. > I don't claim to be better than him, less than him, or the same as > him- all of that type of thinking would be conceit. I am a free > thinker and can choose for myself what to accept and what not to > accept- and I don't come to my conclusions by comparing myself to > others. That is what would be silly. ;-)) Ph: Yes, you're right. > > Phil: I know there is the metta sutta, in which this is taught, but > could you (or anyone) explain how this could be reconciled with the > anatta sutta, which clearly states that we can't have mental > formations the way we would like them to be. > > James: Yes, you cannot change the nature of mental formations, but you > can change the content. If I tell you "Think about an apple", you can > think about any apple. But if I tell you "Think like an apple" you > can't possibly do that. It is possible to generate and radiate metta. Ph: I will keep an open mind on this. Perhaps I will feel differently next year. I know I did last year! :) > > Phil: Wishing you a safe and pleasant journey back to Cairo > > James: Thanks a lot! (btw, that is sending me metta ;-)) Ph: There might have been a moment of metta there, but there was and is a lot of affection. The affection I feel for you and Nina and other people here, not to mention the love I feel for Naomi, will only make me suffer more. The Buddha's way of liberation lies *beyond* people, which is why it goes against the way of the world. We are worldlings and it is natural and inevitable for us to have affection for people, but we shouldn't confuse it with wholesome mental states such as metta. Well, I'll leave it at that. You can have the last word. Again, wishing you well at your new post in Cairo. Metta, Phil 48953 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. philofillet Hi Howard, Nina and all > I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to > purer siila. > ------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is a *very* important matter to discuss!! Yes, an excellent question, Howard, that I will jot down and reflect on. I think it comes down to having fewer obstacles to the arising of wholesomeness, because there is less of the clinging to people's accumulated characters, which make us like and dislike them so. When we have an intellectual understanding of people in ultimate terms, there is simply less irritation that we escape from through doing good, and less affection that we add to by doing good, and the good we do is therefore purer. And this is just thinking at an intellectual level. It is beyond me to know how direct understanding of Paramattha Dhammas purifies sila. That's just one thought off the top of my head. I will continue to think about it. Metta, PHil 48954 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 0:32am Subject: Karmic Resultants: Just Cause & Effect ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Phenomena that are Results, Cause Results or Neither: Which are the mental states, that are results ? The results of good and bad mental states, which take effect in the worlds of sense desire, in the planes of fine material form, in the formless realms, and in the supramundane states: That is the cluster of feelings, perceptions, mental constructions & the cluster of types of consciousness... These are the phenomena, which are results! Which are the mental states, that cause results ? Good and bad states, belonging to the worlds of sense desire, to the planes of fine material form, to the formless realms, and to the supramundane states: That is the cluster of feelings, perceptions, mental constructions and the cluster of kinds of consciousness... These are the phenomena, which cause results! Which are the states, that neither are results nor cause results ? Those mental states governing action, which are neither good nor bad!, nor the results of other prior action, and moreover all form, and finally the unconditioned element of Nibbana... These are the phenomena, which neither are results themselves, nor cause any other results! Source: The 1st canonical Abhidhamma Book: Dhammasanghani: pp 991-993 The Classification of States. The Enumeration of Ultimate Realities. Tr. by U Kyaw Khine. 1999. Sri Satguru Publications. Delhi. ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48955 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 490 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Hindrances' or 'obstructions' or 'obstacles' or 'nivaranas' are those dhamma that obstruct or hinder the progression to jhaana or magga. There are 5 hindrances or 5 nivaranas. They are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obstruction of sensuality) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction of ill-will) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction of sloth-torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana (obstruction by wandering-worrying) 5. vicikicchaa nivarana (obstruction by suspicion) The first 4 niivaranas or 4 hindrances have been explained. The 5th niivarana or hindrance is vicikicchaa niivarana or hindrance by suspicion. Like other niivarana dhamma there are similar but much much grosser form of these akusala of niivarana dhamma. The grosser form of vicikiccha can be seen in our daily life. When they arise as akusala moha citta they do have the power to give rise to rebirth in the 4 lower planes of existences called 4 woeful realms. The subtle form is that it encroaches to mind without warning and declaration that it is coming. This especially arise when the appraoching way to jhaana or magga is almost ready. When there is calmness, peace, tranquility there arise thoughts like this way is very peaceful. Are there any more ways that are better than this way. Am I progressing? Am I not progressing? If not then there must have ways that can give rise to faster attainment and so on. When such doubt arise this creates the obstruction to jhaana or magga. Initially as it is very subtle one may or may not recognise its coming. When it is not checked and comes in un-noticed then it may grow to grosser forms and finally this growing of thoughts destroy all activities and bring back to sensualities. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48956 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 488 ) htootintnaing Dear Tep, I am going to deal with each thought unit of yours. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - I just hope that you will be more relaxed and trust me more as a dhamma friend, who will not ask questions in order to find faults in your statement. But if it ever occurred to you that some of my messages did show an intention to criticize your posts, then please accept my apology as many times as needed. I will be much more careful not to cause you to feel like that anymore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine, Tep. Because your are Dhamma friend. Here you may notice I dropped the article 'a' in front of 'Dhamma friend'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: The followings are my comments. I am avoiding the ineffective in-line dialogue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depends on who are communicating and their like and dislike. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 1] -- Reviewing UPs is a good idea, but it is tedious. It is no fun to search UPs for information. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, they are very useful. Especially for searching something I want to explore. For studying, I would go for texts elsewhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 2] -- If the previous posts discussed the five hindrances very well, then your job is easy : just talk about the sixth one only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There always are new and new members. For their benefits 'live discussion' at this time is more meaningful for them rather than reading old messages long time ago. Sarah, Christine and others are good at linking. If such references are in need, they will help linking. Regarding my 'Dhamma Thread' posts, they are interconnected, interrelated, woven well, pre-formed, well-considerated. So I cannot drop the first 5 hindrances or the first 5 niivaranas. Again, this is not tedious. repeatition is good. Asevana paccaya. Repeatition condition conditions repeated conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 3] -- So you say that "outside thoughts" are thoughts that wander away from the object of meditation, which is one of the four foundations of mindfulness. Fine with me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Now you got what I mean. Actually the message itself explains what I mean when I wrote 'outside thoughts'. 'Outside thoughts' that I used in that context is not the opposite of 'inside thoughts'. It means 'other thoughts' other than 'meditative thoughts that attend meditational object, which again are 'naama' or 'ruupa' in satipatthaana and signs in all ruupa jhaana and some are signs in aruupa jhaana and some are 'naama' in aruupa jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 4] -- So you say you do not want to discuss whether dhamaarammana is inside or outside. Fine with me too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here, misunderstanding may arise. 1. I do not want to discuss (becasuse it is not the right time) 2. I do not want to discuss (because it is not related with context) 3. I do not want to discuss (because I have already discussed it) 4. I do not want to discuss (because it is not current topic) 5. I do not want to discuss (because it is still not appropriate) If you want to move to another discussion on 'dhammaarammana is inside or outside' it is fine. But you have to define what inside and outside mean in the context of 'dhammaarammana'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 5] -- So you say that recognizing craving is the same as satisfaction. Indeed, you stated: "When craving is not recognised then outgoing thoughts do arise and destroy your meditation complely". But I don't have a clue what you meant, Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Did I say it? Ha ha. Please check the context again. 1. The Buddha satisfied something. 2. Sariputta satisfied something. 3. Moggallana satisfied something. 4. Devadattha satisfied something. 5. A child satisfied something. 6. A bull satisfied something. 7. Murderers satisfied something. Satisfaction is just daily usage. OK. Let assume there are 10 thoughts. 1. I attend this sign 2. I am tranquilized. 3. This sign is beautiful 4. I have seen this sign before 5. I saw it 6 months ago 6. I met my teacher 6 months ago. 7. He is getting old. 8. He does not have any children 9. It is shocking when there lack support 10.I am agitated. You do not need to say these 'sentenses' in your mind. But let assume these 10 things arise in your mind in serial order when you are meditating with jhaana object. As soon as you become calm 1. you know you attend that sign (thought unit 1) 2. you feel tranquilized in your mind (thought unit 2) 3. you are now attending that sign and you notice that you are tranquilized. And then you also notice that the sign you are attending is very very beautiful. So far 'nothing negative arisen' 4. you think you have seen it before. This is the first point you go outside of the frame. 4 to 10 are wandering. And 10 is even 'aversive'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 6] -- O.K. you don't have a clue either when I say "When 'the mind' starts to wander, whatelse, besides the outside thoughts, may make it wander too?" Please allow me to explain. The question was asked at the time I didn't understand "outside thoughts". Now that I know what you mean, this question may be dropped. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now it is OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 7] -- I asked you about strategies for guarding cognizance inward (so it stays with the object), and your answer was "Study dhamma so that we understand what they are". Please read the following sutta to find a better answer yourself: SN XLVII.10 Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta: Directed and Undirected Meditation. This sutta is outstanding in the sense that our Lord Buddha gave his meditation advice not only to his monks, but also to lay disciples (such as nuns), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for the sutta. But you said 'lay disciples (such as nuns). Do you mean 'bhikkhunii' are 'lay disciples'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Thought 7 continued: who dwelled in satipatthana (the four foundations of mindfulness). The advice is very clear to me(as measured by my own experience) that while the meditator contemplates a body in the body, a feeling in the feeling, and so on, ( being "ardent, fully aware, mindful — leading away the unhappiness that comes from wanting the things of the world"), yet his cognizance(citta) may sometimes go outward (rather than staying inward on the object of satipatthana). Then the meditator should "direct his mind to some satisfactory image (nimitta). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, sutta explain well. But when I read above sentence, there is a sense that 'cognizance or citta' can be controlled and put it to 'satisfactory image (nimitta). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Tought 7 continued: When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated". This is "directed meditation". After his mind has become concentrated inward, he will no longer need the directed meditation -- the cognizance is now free, undirected. Now he dwells contemplting a body in the body, etc., by undirected meditation -- i.e. he does not have to direct the mind to any nimitta, therefore the meditation is called "undirected". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That sounds great. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: [Thought 8] -- So you say "maybe and yes" to the question, "Are thoughts sankhara?'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If questions are unwavering and easily understandable the answer will be straight forward. As I said 'sankhaara' has a number of meanings like 'ruupa' in Pali. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Thank you again for bearing with me. Tep ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. As we are friends, we do not need to worry about friendship. I can bear all Dhamma questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48957 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:42am Subject: Satipatthaana (13) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body One way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'breathing'. Another way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'posture'. Another way is to contemplate on 'detail movement'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body part'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body element'. There are 9 more further ways to contemplate on 'body'. They are contemplations on 'body foulness'. There are 9 stages of 'body foulness'. 1) stage 1 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'body' as if a corpse of one-day-old or two-day-old or three- day-old , which has been discarded at cemetery. The corpse is swollen or blackened or putrified according to its age (1 day or 2 days or 3 days). This body (my body) will follow the natural course like this corpse, this body will become a corpse like this, this body will not overcome this stage of foulness seen in this corpse. This stage one will have happened in others' body. This stage will have happened in both 'this body' and 'others' body'.(3 contemplations_self, others, self& others). Extra 3 contemplations are contemplation or origination, on dissolution, on both origination & dissolution. 2) stage 2 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, on which crows have bitten, hawks have bitten, vultures have bitten, ravens have bitten, jackals have bitten, tigers have bitten, leopards have bitten,foxes have bitten, worms have eaten. This body will follow this course, will become the corpse like this, will not overcome this stage of body foulness. ( 3 contemplations ). And then 3 extra contemplations as in stage 1. 3) stage 3 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, with residual flesh, smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. There are 6 contemplations as in other 'foulness meditation' of stage 1 and stage 2. 4) stage 4 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, without any flesh but smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 5) stage 5 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, without any flesh, without any blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 6) stage 6 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, unbounded loose bones scatter here and there as hand bone, foot bone, ankle bone, leg bone, thigh bone, hip bone, rib bone, back bone, shoulder bone, neck bone, jaw bone, tooth bone, skull bone. 7) stage 7 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, in which scattered bones become white and dry. 8) stage 8 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become a year old and heap up. 9) stage 9 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become rotten, crushed, moth-eaten and become bone dust. In each of these 9 stages of foulness there are 6 contemplations and so there are 54 contemplations on the body foulness. Kaayaanupassanas are a) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' b) 15 contemplations on 'posture' c) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' d) 99 contemplations on 'body part' e) 15 contemplations on 'body element' f) 54 contemplations on 'body foulness' of 9 stages ------ 261 contemplations on body All these contemplations are directed at ruupa or naama and they all are satipatthaana. In this section of 'kaayaanupassana' there are 14 contemplations and in detail there are 261 contemplations. 9 contemplations are 9 stages of body foulness. Other 5 contemplations are on 1. breathing 2. posture 3. detail movement 4. body part 5. body element Contemplations on body foulness is called aadinavanupassana. Satipatthana is to abolish the idea of 'beautifulness', 'permanence', 'satisfactoriness', 'self'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48958 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:50am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) philofillet Hi again James and all > Ph: There might have been a moment of metta there, but there was > and is a lot of affection. The affection I feel for you and Nina and > other people here, not to mention the love I feel for Naomi, will > only make me suffer more. Just reread this and thought it was worded poorly. In the long run, there is bound to be suffering because of our attachments to people. But of course there is much to be said for the companionship that supports the development of kusala in our lives. Metta, Phil 48959 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Please clarify to help me understand better what you are saying." > > Hi Rob, > > You said paper isn't a sense object and I said it is if you describe it > as a sense object. Bottom line: my position is that the fruits of kamma > are conventional (beauty, power, wealth, etc.). Otherwise kamma is > meaningless. Come to think of it, the roots of kamma are also > conventional because they all assume a self. No self = no kamma. ===== I am not sure that we have the same definition of kamma. Sorry to get a bit technical, but my understanding of kamma as one of the 24 conditions is: The conditioning state (what causes kamma to arise - what you call "roots of kamma") is the 33 past akusala / kusala mental states: - 12 akusala (8 lobha-mula + 2 dosa-mula + 2 moha-mula) - 8 kusala - 5 rupavacara wholesome - 4 arupavacara wholesome - 4 supramundane path The conditioned states (what kamma will impact - what you call the "fruits of kamma") are: a) 36 vipaka mental states (with their associated 38 cetasikas): - 5 akusala sense consciousness - 5 kusala sense consciousness - 2 receiving (akusala + kusala) - 3 investigating (1 akusala + 2 kusala) - 8 sense sphere resultant (bhavanga) - 5 rupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) - 4 arupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) - 4 supramundane fruit b) kamma-born rupa (at rebirth, during existence, in consciousnessless beings plane) - Eye / ear / nose / tongue / body sensitivity - Life faculty - Heart base - Masculinity / femininity (note: I am limiting the discussion to asynchronous kamma) Metta, Rob M :-) 48960 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:12am Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Joop and all, > I understand what you are saying. I think it is fair to say that in > the cosmology of the audience of the Buddha the Dhamma has always > existed, throughout the countless shrinking and expanding of the world > systems. Every enlightened being has, in that cosmology, at some time > heard the Dhamma. > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > Hallo Herman I think your main point in this message was 'shouldism', but I have hardly an opinion about that (on this moment) I'm more interested in that cosmology you are talking about. What I have read about Buddhist cosmology I do not take litteral, but as a metaphore, and I metaphore I don't need. But what is 'the cosmology of the audience of the Buddha' to you? Metta Joop 48961 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:36am Subject: e-card from Bangkok1 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've had a couple of great days of discussion with A.Sujin and other friends (around 10 people, some coming on both days inc. Sukin and Betty, some coming just yesterday, like the Lisa Nina mentioned, and some coming just today such as Ivan (Matt), Elle and Christine who arrived in Bangkok late last night. Lots of lively discussion (v.lively this afternoon, wouldn't you say, Betty & co??)and good friendship with tasty lunches between sessions.... The topics discussed for anything from a few seconds to half an hour or so - many arising from DSG discussions and/or topics recently raised in Australia (thanks for the input from the DownUnder guys!): Wednesday's: - the ayatanas and my recent discussion with B.Bodhi on the Pahana sutta, 35:24in SN and his notes (checking my comments in #45167). Ayatanas better considered/translated as 'meeting points' rather than 'sense bases', no difference in meaning of ayatanas in suttas and abhidhamma.In D.O. the same..Also more discussion on the 'Rob M sutta' discussed in Aust. too about attainment by way of ayatanas, khandhas, 4 mahabhuta elements etc...dhamma now is khandha or ayatana etc - breath as object of samatha (a concept - pannatti, nimitta the same in this context)...a concept of reality....breath (particular rupa) as object of satipatthana.... -7 anupassatis (contemplations, but actually insights) vs 18 principal insights...anupassatis develop following the principal insights....anupassati, 'following' the objects - eightfold path factors when jhana used as basis (disussion with Htoo)...can be without vitakka, vicara (and piti). Factors acco. phala cittas same as lokuttara cittas, Steve - Sariputta and qu of whether jhana as basis for enlightenment...certainly for attainment of sotapanna not said, also for arahant, not clear - anagamis w'out jhana attainment reborn in jhana brahma bhumis...jhana cittas in last javana series - citta as forerunner except in lokuttara cittas when it's panna (Atth quote given before). 1st Dhp verse discussed - referring just to citta as forerunner - 3 meanings of nama as in Atth quote - 1)name, 2)conditioned nama, 3)unconditioned nama...."nama, because 'names' once given are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects or as objects they bend the mind" - latter referring to all objects experienced - 'citta experiences' vs 'the experiencing of an object' (discussion with Larry & Howard) - just use whatever words someone finds helpful..only words! - akusala sila ref in Patisambhidamagga...sila just refers to deeds or speech and can be kusala, akusala or abyakata - sanna (perception) and its different meanings, but always refers to sanna, even when given as insight or citta (sanna accompanying these) - death and kamma....anything can happen by kamma. 4 kinds of death (Htoo's post #44125) on natural lifespan vs kamma shortened - natural and extraordinary - 4 sampajannas - conventional suitability or wisdom such as good health or exercise vs suitability, purpose and so on of object showing accumulations now for satipatthana - vipassana nanas and understanding of dhammas thr' 6 doorways - many processes...now, the mind door process is 'covered up' or not known...seems like seeing all the time -cinta maya panna (discussion with Dan & Nina before) - need to differentiate between this conceptual knowledge (cf pariyatti) and cinta ~naana which is insight referring to 1st 3 vipassana nanas. cinta maya panna like pariyatti is more than just listenng and refers to what is known about reality now - the cula sotapanna or sotapanna-to-be at 2nd stage of insight (#45633) - assured destiny as discussed, some kinds of akusala kamma patha not possible, no more woeful rebirths... From discussion with Ken H, insight accumulated, but may not be conditions to arise in life without hearing the teachings, eg Anathapindika needed to hear the Buddha to condition such saddha etc - Sariputta and the executioner.....'it's gone'! - understanding of kusala and akusala - when it's not satipatthana, it's theoretical knwoledge only (Steve, #32997) - Tranquillity & Insight, AN72 (Andrew raised in Australia) - who knows the person better than the Buddha and what he had accumulations for...suttas for all those that can benefit, but 'directed' to the one with such accumulations - sanna as a condition for more attachment, Nina #47645 - understand this moment! - AN 5.8.3 raised by Herman on learning the texts and neglecting seclusion - same answer as to AN72 - compassion for future beings, raised by Steve.....no need to think of future lives, like now for any suffering anytime, now or later....(other beings!!) - all wrong views under 'annihilationist' and 'eternalist' labels? No need to label, how can we know? Understand wrong view now when it arises. - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door so can't be known. - most cittas akusala, lots of kusala vipaka - conditions! ***** Metta, Sarah ======== 48962 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:19am Subject: e-card from Bangkok2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Thursday's: - Death, momentary cittas like now as discussed in Australia too....(Chris, pls share your moving account with yr mother) - kamma and vipaka, when experiencing loss at work or other difficulties vs vipaka as just a moment of seeing, hearing etc. Worldly conditions - we all experience them, draw your own conclusion as to whether an anagami who has no dosa and no attachment to sense objects is affected - wrong view and wrong view - if it isn't known now when it arises, it can never be eradicated....eg,thinking if there was more quiet time there'd be more conditions for awareness. Any more on this, Jon? - sati and panna, knowing when there is and isn't awareness...awareness vs thinking about awareness. The condition for the development of understanding is understanding now! - the meaning of nimitta - impression of visible object, not characteristic (v.hard - I need to listen on this) - Ven Sangarakkhita (Kel and Ken H discussed from Vism 1 135)- developed mindfulness but not supramundane states as he wished to see the future Buddha, sat up and became an arahant -- anything can happen by conditions! - heart-base (haddaya vatthu)in the 'developed' heart...if the heart is removed (eg during a transplant), then it's like the embryo on conception - it's there in a kalapa. Not in blood outside the body or in artificial blood etc....one of the 3 kalapas conditioned by kamma from birth (i.e conception) - more medical stuff, Betty's example of seeing a video of internal organs - more detachment and less wrong view of self? (Just less attachment to the body, but still 'mine')Anything else, Betty? - Vessantara Jataka, not Christine's favourite...but reminders of the development of the paramis, giving up of dhammas, not people, understanding of the bodhisatta and without this perfection of dana, we wouldn't be hearing the dhamma now.....any more comments, Chris? - Desirable, undesirable objects....some share Evan's lack of enthusiasm for determing any objects in such a way....the spill-over effect from the list...I think the conclusions were the same...an idea of a picture or object now as desirable or not is just a concept, but depending on vipaka cittas, desirable and undesirable objects are experienced...momentarily. Anything else, Sukin or Chris? - Herman's question on how citta experiencing rupa can know it's same rupa experienced by previous cittas. Sukin valliantly took up Herman's 'cause' and good qus on this...because the Buddha knew and taught the details:-/, otherwise it's 'I' :-/, understanding the difference between the Buddha's knowledge and others :-/....what else, Sukin? - choices, decisions, thinking, sanna....accumulations...what has helped to date, Chris? - sanna's functions of marking and remembering....no need to think of the words or terms - Delight in the teachings - may not smile, but delight when there's understanding... - habit or tendency of drinking....attachment to the results or states (or to taste or anything else) - D.O. sankhara and bhava- same - adhi citta, always refers to calm/ concentration in the development of satipatthana. when it seems in the texts to refer to jhana cittas, it is to these as objects of satipatthana - decline of the sasana - just thinking about what will or may happen in the future. Just do what one can now, that's all - kamma-patha thr' the mind-door without vinatti rupas as in other doors. micha ditthi, abhijjha and vyapada. Vinatti can be known through the mind-door, but by whom? - cheating dhammas - many references, eg wishing dhamma for one's children - it's good, so it must be wholesome....attachment! Maybe Chris will have more on this too.... - satipatthana and external objects...one's own citta when perceives cittas, vedana etc in others -space - 3 kinds, pariccheda rupa (space) between rupas is a reality, the other kinds object of jhana and open (ajata space)are concepts ***** Another discussion on Saturday - grateful for any disagreements or questions to raise then..... Sukin, Jon, Betty, Chris, Ivan....any further comments? Anything especially meaningful? Meanwhile, appreciating all the good discussions here. Metta, Sarah ======== 48963 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: Beauty onco111 Well put, RobertK! To repeat what you wrote: "The citta that experiences any visible object is by nature always the result of either kusala or akusala kamma, if it is the result of kusala kamma then the object must be intrinsically desirable, pleasant (whatever word you like). It can never be neutral and has no relationship to whether the one who sees it finds it acceptable, not-acceptable, likeable or not likeable. All of these likes and dislikes etc come in during later mind-door processes." Metta, Dan 48964 From: "Larry" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 RobM: "I am not sure that we have the same definition of kamma." Hi Rob, Okay, let's go with your definition of kamma. What do you mean, "what kamma will impact"? I don't understand "impact" or "kamma" in that phrase. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Rob: "Please clarify to help me understand better what you are > saying." > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > You said paper isn't a sense object and I said it is if you > describe it > > as a sense object. Bottom line: my position is that the fruits of > kamma > > are conventional (beauty, power, wealth, etc.). Otherwise kamma is > > meaningless. Come to think of it, the roots of kamma are also > > conventional because they all assume a self. No self = no kamma. > > ===== > > I am not sure that we have the same definition of kamma. Sorry to get > a bit technical, but my understanding of kamma as one of the 24 > conditions is: > > The conditioning state (what causes kamma to arise - what you > call "roots of kamma") is the 33 past akusala / kusala mental states: > - 12 akusala (8 lobha-mula + 2 dosa-mula + 2 moha-mula) > - 8 kusala > - 5 rupavacara wholesome > - 4 arupavacara wholesome > - 4 supramundane path > > The conditioned states (what kamma will impact - what you call > the "fruits of kamma") are: > > a) 36 vipaka mental states (with their associated 38 cetasikas): > - 5 akusala sense consciousness > - 5 kusala sense consciousness > - 2 receiving (akusala + kusala) > - 3 investigating (1 akusala + 2 kusala) > - 8 sense sphere resultant (bhavanga) > - 5 rupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) > - 4 arupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) > - 4 supramundane fruit > > b) kamma-born rupa (at rebirth, during existence, in > consciousnessless beings plane) > - Eye / ear / nose / tongue / body sensitivity > - Life faculty > - Heart base > - Masculinity / femininity > > (note: I am limiting the discussion to asynchronous kamma) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 48965 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:38am Subject: Satipatthaana (14) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body c) 9 Buddha's Attributes d) 30 feeling-contemplations These 30 contemplations are vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana. They are contemplations on feeling. However, feeling never exists alone. Feeling arises along with consciousness. According to 'the definition of consciousness in Oxford English Dictionar' consciousness comprises feeling. Abhidhamma says in each and every citta or consciousness there is a feeling. This means if there is a citta then there is a feeling associated with that citta. So if there is no citta then there is no feeling at all. Feeling or vedana is one of 5 aggregates or one of panca khandhas. There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. They are 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation aggregates 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregates. In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Here in this post there will describe 30 contemplations on feeling and this is contemplation on vedana-kkhandha. Ruupa-kkhandha is contemplated in both of kaayanupassana and dhammaanupassana. But kaayaanupassana or contemplations on the body is mainly on ruupa-kkhandha. There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for themselves. These 9 contemplations are 1. this is pleasant feeling. 2. this is unpleasant feeling. 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attaining) 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. At a time the individual thinks that these feelings would have been arising and passing away in other individuals and they are just feelings that are not self. So there is another set of 9 contemplations on other individuals. At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. There are originations of these feeling. This is another contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. This is for simplicity and further clarification may be required. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48966 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi RobertK, > I always appreciate your patient and succint comments, which are so > often exactly what your conversation partner needed to hear at that > particular time -- the mark of a good teacher. > ++++++ Dear Dan, I've been appreciating your comments on meditation centers too. ___________ > I do have one correction to your recent comments, though. In > particular, you wrote: > > > 1. Dan suggested that Buddhaghosa said that it was by considering > > whether the average man(accountants etc) likes it or dislikes it > that > > it can be known as intrinsically desirable or undesirable. And > > suggested that we can discount the commentaries based on this. > > I don't know, Rob. Did I really say this? > > I did write [msg. #48748]: "Or, in the Sammohavinodani, intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant objects are defined in terms what the common, > average man would say are pleasant or unpleasant -- a very > unsatisfactory explanation." By my recollection, > Buddhagosa's "average man" discussion was part of his definition of > intrinsically desirable/undesirable object -- very unsatisfactory for > a number of reasons that we discussed a year or two ago. > > How something is defined is quite different from how that something > can be known. Buddhagosa regularly makes that distinction, as he does > in the "Dispeller" discussion of the "average man" (which you rightly > point out). > ========== As I explained I think you misunderstand Buddhaghosa's explanation in this case (see my prevoious email). ======= > As for "discounting" the commentaries, I don't think that's accurate. > I have tremendous respect and admiration of the commentaries and find > them extremely valuable, especially for the reasons I listed in a > number of posts. However, it is true that I don't put as much stock > in the commentaries as in the primary texts because I don't think > their expositions are as masterful (and cited some examples), and > they lend themselves very well to intellectualizing the Dhamma, which > I think is not helpful. > > Do you put them on the same level as the Buddha's explanations? Or do > you "discount" them? > ++++++++++++++++++ Even if you doubt that Buddhaghosa was an arahant you should know that he was editing the words of the arahants. To ask if I put them on the same level as the Buddha word is taking a narrow view. The atthakattha are the explainers of meaning (attha- meaning), without them everyone is liable to misintepret the suttas. They protect the Buddha's word. It is hard for me to say why I trust them, after all I can't prove them right. But almost right from the beginning of taking them up I found them clear and helpful, almost no doubts. I guess in such a huge amount of material there must be errors somewhere, but I am certain I don't have the wisdom to know where. RobertK 48967 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:31pm Subject: Shoulding - was Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Joop, Thanks for the question. I'm no expert, but I'll give it a go. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Joop and all, > > I understand what you are saying. I think it is fair to say that in > > the cosmology of the audience of the Buddha the Dhamma has always > > existed, throughout the countless shrinking and expanding of the world > > systems. Every enlightened being has, in that cosmology, at some time > > heard the Dhamma. > > > I think your main point in this message was 'shouldism', but I have > hardly an opinion about that (on this moment) > I'm more interested in that cosmology you are talking about. > What I have read about Buddhist cosmology I do not take litteral, but > as a metaphore, and I metaphore I don't need. > But what is 'the cosmology of the audience of the Buddha' to you? > The Buddha was born into "this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its priests and contemplatives, its royalty and common-folk". There was an abundance of views, as demonstrated by the Buddha's analysis of them, but concepts like Dhamma, kamma, merit, rebirth and atman were deeply entrenched in the psyche of the culture. The universe has always been. (in contrast to creation myths) I find it interesting that the assumption of never-ending rebirth rules supreme in the East, and the assumption of one life ==> one after-life rules supreme in the West. It is probably conditioned by something as inane as average day-time temperature :-). Kind Regards Herman 48968 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala robmoult Hi Larry, Here are some somewhat circular definitions: Condition: A relationship between a "conditioning state" and a "conditioned state"; there are 24 listed in the Patthana, but there are many more. For example, gravity is a relationship between the earth and the moon (it is also a relationship between the moon and the earth) Conditioning state: A state that related to a "conditioned state" through a condition Conditioned state: A state that is related to a "conditioning state" through a condition In the case of our discussion, you might call the "condition" to be "kamma", the "conditioning state" to be "cause" and the conditioned state to be "effect". So the "conditioning state" is the thing that causes kamma to arise. From the definition below, we can see that rocks (rupa) do not cause kamma to arise. The only things that can cause kamma to arise are the "kamma creating mind states". The "conditioned state" is what kamma influences. From the definition below, we can see that rocks are not acted upon by kamma. Rocks do not create kamma, nor do they receive the effect of kamma. The law of kamma does not apply to rocks (or any inanimate rupa). There are other sets of conditions (utu-niyama) which apply to rocks and other inanimate rupa, but kamma is not included. Kamma does not cause tsunamis. The "mental things" that are the effect of kamma are the specific 36 vipaka cittas listed below and the 38 cetasikas which are part of these cittas. So what are the "non mental things" are the effect of kamma: - Basic life force - Gender - The sensitive part of they eye (non-blindness) - The sensitive part of the ear (non-deafness) - The sensitive part of the nose / tongue / body Larry, as you can see, the technical definition of kamma is far more limited that what you have suggested. It does not include in the list of effects things such as "beauty, power, wealth, etc.) Let me give a specific example to illustrate. Imagine a rock falls on my toe (and it really hurts!). How does kamma play a role in this event? The existence of the rock has nothing to do with kamma (rocks are not created by kamma) The fact that the rock is falling has nothing to do with kamma (this is gravity and other conditions at work) The fact that the rock hit my toe has nothing to do with kamma (the condition for this hitting to arise is the fact that my toe is in the path of the falling rock) The fact that my toe can sense the pain when the rock hits my toe is because of kamma (I have body sensitivity because of kamma) The nature of the tactile sensation is nothing to do with kamma (it is the nature of falling rocks to cause pain, not to cause pleasure) We now have to get into the citta process (I will keep this relatively high level - I recently went through this in detail with Evan). - At the moment the tactile sensation arise, the mind is experiencing bhavanga citta (kammic result of last thought of previous existence, nothing to do with the current situation) - After a few bhavanga cittas, an adverting citta arises which directs the flow of the mind to the body door (purely functional, nothing to do with kamma) - Because the inherent nature of the tactile sensation arriving at the body door is undesireable (anittha), this is a condition for unwholesome kamma to ripen and an "akusala body consciousness citta" arises (note: There are a gazillion kammic effects waiting for conditions conduicive for them to arise. The inherently undesireable tactile sensation showing up at the body door is a condition for one of the akusala kammic effects to arise. This arising is manifested by a vipaka mental state) - After a few more cittas which are also the result of past kammic action, there is a determining citta which is not the effect of kamma - Then there are a series of kamma-creating cittas (javanas); this is the point that aversion to the tactile sensation arises (dosa-mula citta) Larry, this must be very frustrating for you. I am dealing with kamma at a very technical level and you view kamma at a high level. So what did the Buddha say about kamma? From the Suttas that I have read, the Buddha only talked about kamma when discussing rebirth (it is kamma which drives us into each existence). There are probably also suttas in which the Buddha talks about kamma impacting the course of existence, but I have not found them yet. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > RobM: "I am not sure that we have the same definition of kamma." > > Hi Rob, > > Okay, let's go with your definition of kamma. What do you mean, "what > kamma will impact"? I don't understand "impact" or "kamma" in that > phrase. > > Larry > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Rob: "Please clarify to help me understand better what you are > > saying." > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > You said paper isn't a sense object and I said it is if you > > describe it > > > as a sense object. Bottom line: my position is that the fruits of > > kamma > > > are conventional (beauty, power, wealth, etc.). Otherwise kamma is > > > meaningless. Come to think of it, the roots of kamma are also > > > conventional because they all assume a self. No self = no kamma. > > > > ===== > > > > I am not sure that we have the same definition of kamma. Sorry to > get > > a bit technical, but my understanding of kamma as one of the 24 > > conditions is: > > > > The conditioning state (what causes kamma to arise - what you > > call "roots of kamma") is the 33 past akusala / kusala mental > states: > > - 12 akusala (8 lobha-mula + 2 dosa-mula + 2 moha-mula) > > - 8 kusala > > - 5 rupavacara wholesome > > - 4 arupavacara wholesome > > - 4 supramundane path > > > > The conditioned states (what kamma will impact - what you call > > the "fruits of kamma") are: > > > > a) 36 vipaka mental states (with their associated 38 cetasikas): > > - 5 akusala sense consciousness > > - 5 kusala sense consciousness > > - 2 receiving (akusala + kusala) > > - 3 investigating (1 akusala + 2 kusala) > > - 8 sense sphere resultant (bhavanga) > > - 5 rupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) > > - 4 arupavacara vipaka (bhavanga) > > - 4 supramundane fruit > > > > b) kamma-born rupa (at rebirth, during existence, in > > consciousnessless beings plane) > > - Eye / ear / nose / tongue / body sensitivity > > - Life faculty > > - Heart base > > - Masculinity / femininity > > > > (note: I am limiting the discussion to asynchronous kamma) > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 48969 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:57pm Subject: The chemical nature of desire egberdina Hi all, Some of you may find the following useful or relevant. For about two months I have been taking anti-depressants. It comes in the form of a little pill, a little rock if you like, with only 20 milligrams of active ingredient. Some effects of taking it were nearly immediate, others took a little while. My general mood/feeling elevated on the same day I took the first pill. Over the first few days I noticed a decline in craving of all sorts. Nothing "grabbed" me. I completely lost all sexual desire. The curvaceous bits that women have may as well have been jagged :-). Interesting side effects were that I became jaundiced. That manifests itself as a yellowing of the skin colour. So we changed brands. Mood wise and craving wise the effects continued. My colour improved, but now the skin on the palms of my hands started to peel of. Crazy. About two weeks ago I decided to start weaning myself of the little rocks. I now only take 10 milligrams of active ingredient each day. I notice I become very tired very quickly. I notice some irritability creeping in here and there. A very strange thing happened. I was in the toilet, doing a wee, and a very powerful craving for alcohol grabbed me. It lasted for 3 seconds maybe, but it was very intense. Like there was nothing else but that craving. Immediately after that a very powerful craving for sex grabbed me. Again only 3 seconds at most. Then there was the profoundest despair. Rock-bottom kind of despair. There was the realisation that this whole life is nothing but craving and its satisfaction. It lasted maybe 10 seconds. There was no sense of I in any of this. If there had been, the intensity of despair would have made me suicidal under normal circumstances. As I walked out the toilet, I noticed my whole body was shaking, my fingers were quivering uncontrollably, as were my hands, my arms, my legs. It lasted 10 minutes at least. I felt quite calm, I wasn't involved at all. But it was happening. Crazy. My sexual appetite is returning. Curvaceous bits are weaving their magic spell again. My wife and I will carefully watch to see what happens. If things go bad, I'll go back to 20 milligrams of rock again. It's crazy, but true, that little rocks have such profound impact on the nature of citta. Kind Regards Herman 48970 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 RobM: "So what did the Buddha say about kamma? From the Suttas that I have read, the Buddha only talked about kamma when discussing rebirth (it is kamma which drives us into each existence). There are probably also suttas in which the Buddha talks about kamma impacting the course of existence, but I have not found them yet." Hi Rob, I've been discussing kamma in the context of the middle way view between eternalistic and annhilationistic views in the suttas and the inherent desirability etc. of objects in the commentaries with particular focus on the investigating consciousness. What are the parameters of inherent desirability? Something that _ought_ to be desired? The Buddha clearly taught that there is nothing in conditioned arising that is truely or wisely desired. So what is this category that is at the center of the kamma condition which the Buddha insisted on? It is basically ultimate justice and justice is social, subject to local conventions. A birth-mark plastered over someone's face is just a color, but on the other hand it is definitely undesirable. A $100 bill is just some rupas, but on the other hand it is definitely desirable. But not desirable to a mosquito. A $100 bill lost in the forest is still desirable but it isn't someone's reward for a good deed until someone finds it. We are talking about desirable objects, not desirable consciousnesses. See CMA, 172 or dsg email 48832. Larry 48971 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beauty/Howard lbidd2 Howard: "I am perplexed, Robert. In "Cetasikas", Nina writes "Indifferent feeling accompanies vipakacittas such as seeing or hearing." And *my* experience confirms that." Hi Howard, I looked this up in CMA p.43. One investigating consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling. So, even though the sense consciousness is accompanied by neutral feeling, when there is a desirable object the investigating consciousness will be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Undesirable and desirable neutral objects are accompanied by neutral feeling in investigating consciousness (I think). What this means is, even as the surgeon is plunging his scalpel into your heart for by-pass surgery, a pleasant feeling will arise with the investigating consciousness. Larry 48972 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:02am Subject: Tomorrow is Buddhist Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... Tomorrow though is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I have put up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha here! http://www.what-buddha-said.org/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48973 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: The chemical nature of desire htootintnaing Dear Herman, Thanks for your post. Interesting really. All biological matters have chemical basis. Genetics has chemical basis. Food has chemical basis. All the work of the brain have chemical basis. Environmental reactions all have chemical basis. Even the states that are obtained through meditative achievement may be mimicked by chemical support. Examples are calmness, soothing, tranquility, etc etc. But these cannot replace the existing achievement derived from normal people. The brain is an amazing organ that support the whole physical body. It is the master of the whole physical body. That is why once there is 'brain death' the person concerned is announced as 'dead'. In the brain there are many many systems that have been working for many functions. Examples are mortor functions, sensory functions, reflex functions, cortical functions, limbic functions, hippocampal functions, ganglial functions, cerebellar functions, and many others. These functions are working in an organized manner. Happiness- sadness. This is also performed by the brain with chemical reactions. Aggression-calming down. This is also performed by the brain with chemical reactions. That is why some mental disorders can well be manipulated by chemical pills or rock (you said rock). Everything that is biological matter is in the realm of chemistry. But what scitentists cannot see, cannot approve, cannot confirm, cannot realize, cannot touch, cannot record, cannot manipulate is kamma, citta, and dhamma. They might tackle 'weather' and 'environment'. They might master 'utu'. They might master 'physical food' with chemical treatments. They might manipulate genes. But they cannot afford to manipulate 'kamma' 'citta' and 'dhamma' at all. Arahats, anagams, sakadagams, sotapams will all have the brain if they are human beings. And there will have chemical basis. But this kind of chemistry cannot be fully imitated by chemical pills. Examples are jhaana-attainment. There arise joy and calmness. These have chemical basis. When well calm the brain produce soothing agents like 'endorphins' and 'enkephalins'. These brain hormones are circulating through blood stream through out the physical body and where there are receptors like 'kappa' 'lambda' 'mu' etc they are bound there and further reactions arise to give rise to programmed effects like muscle relaxation and easeness. As these hormones are also related to morphine, pethidine they do have some additive effects. Once someone achieves calmness through these reactions he or she may like that and may try to obtain further through meditation or through additive drugs. But additive drugs are not the answer for peace. Because these drugs all have half-life and they are used up soon and their effect wear off. When wear off, there arise problems of craving to drugs. Unlike additive drugs, meditation does not cause craving. The additive effect given by meditation is 'motivation'. Actually it is related with chanda. It is wish. It is not craving as in cases of drug addicts. Chemistry in mad people or insane people have been changed. These changes cause them to be mad or insane. This can be micmicked by administration of chemicals to normal people. Examples are 'Balladona extracts'. At least they cause 'madness' for a while. But chemistry in mad people or insane people are difficult to controlled even though they may well be manipulated by psychiatrists and psychiatrists gauge the dose of chemical drugs though their effects as evidenced by 'behaviour of patients'. Actually, real basis is there in their 'kamma'. Once 'kamma' expires to give effect as 'insanity', there will not be any signs of madness or insanity. Even though there might be some after effects of changing brain chemistry. Diseases may be cured. But kamma cannot be cured without higher knowledge or anuttara naana or magga naana or path-knowledge. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may find the following useful or relevant. > > For about two months I have been taking anti-depressants. It comes in > the form of a little pill, a little rock if you like, with only 20 > milligrams of active ingredient. > > Some effects of taking it were nearly immediate, others took a little > while. My general mood/feeling elevated on the same day I took the > first pill. Over the first few days I noticed a decline in craving of > all sorts. Nothing "grabbed" me. I completely lost all sexual desire. > The curvaceous bits that women have may as well have been jagged :- ). > > Interesting side effects were that I became jaundiced. That manifests > itself as a yellowing of the skin colour. So we changed brands. Mood > wise and craving wise the effects continued. My colour improved, but > now the skin on the palms of my hands started to peel of. Crazy. > > About two weeks ago I decided to start weaning myself of the little > rocks. I now only take 10 milligrams of active ingredient each day. I > notice I become very tired very quickly. I notice some irritability > creeping in here and there. > > A very strange thing happened. I was in the toilet, doing a wee, and a > very powerful craving for alcohol grabbed me. It lasted for 3 seconds > maybe, but it was very intense. Like there was nothing else but that > craving. Immediately after that a very powerful craving for sex > grabbed me. Again only 3 seconds at most. Then there was the > profoundest despair. Rock-bottom kind of despair. There was the > realisation that this whole life is nothing but craving and its > satisfaction. It lasted maybe 10 seconds. There was no sense of I in > any of this. If there had been, the intensity of despair would have > made me suicidal under normal circumstances. > > As I walked out the toilet, I noticed my whole body was shaking, my > fingers were quivering uncontrollably, as were my hands, my arms, my > legs. It lasted 10 minutes at least. I felt quite calm, I wasn't > involved at all. But it was happening. Crazy. > > My sexual appetite is returning. Curvaceous bits are weaving their > magic spell again. My wife and I will carefully watch to see what > happens. If things go bad, I'll go back to 20 milligrams of rock > again. It's crazy, but true, that little rocks have such profound > impact on the nature of citta. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 48974 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 491 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 6. niivarana dhamma or hindrances Suttas describe there are 5 niivarana or 5 hindrances. These are enough for attainment of jhaana or absorption. There is another niivarana dhamma and this does not hinder jhaana or obstruct jhaana. This means that jhaana can arise without clearing away this 6th niivarana dhamma. It is avijjaa niivarana or 'obstruction by ignorance'. This is also suble dhamma. When one is in jhaana there is no moha at all. But moha as niivarana does hinder the progress to magga naana. This is a point why non- Buddhists jhaanalaabhii or non-Buddhist absorption experts did not have the power to see 4 Noble Truth. This 6th niivarana dhamma does not hinder the jhaana. That is why those 2 teachers of Bodhisatta, Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta did have 7 or 8 jhaanas while they had not destroyed the 6th niivarana or hindrance. But Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama cleared away this niivarana and see 4 Noble Truth as the first discoverer. When there is this niivarana magga naana cannot arise. Because it does hinder arising of magga naana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48975 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Buddhist Observance Day ... !!! htootintnaing Dear Bhante Samahita, Thanks for this post. It works for westerners. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? > Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes > the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, > with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, > and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and > head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, > one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: > > As long as this life lasts: > I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. > I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. > I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. > > I seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. > I seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. > I seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. > > I request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. > I request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. > I request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. > > I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. > I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. > I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. > I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. > I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. > As long as this life lasts... > > Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own > eyes & children, since they protect you & all other beings much better > than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! > This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- > This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, > developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training Meditation... > > Tomorrow though is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where lay Buddhist > normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. > If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply > forward the lines starting with "I.." signed with name, date, town & country > to me. I have put up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha here! > > http://www.what-buddha-said.org/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm > > > May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! > > Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@g... > > For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html > ________________________________________________________ > PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then > will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48976 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:26am Subject: Satipatthaana (15) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body c) 09 Buddha's Attributes d) 30 feeling-contemplations e) 09 Buddha's Attributes f) 51 consciousness-contemplations There are 51 contemplations on consciousness (cittaanupassanaa). When doing contemplation on consciousness one has to be skilful in recognition of various states of mind. Without this skill it is hard to practise these contemplations. There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. I am thinking sensuous matters. (saraga citta) 2. I am not thinking sensuous matters.(vitaraga citta) 3. I am thinking in ill-will.(sadosa citta) 4. I am not thinking in ill-will.(vitadosa citta) 5. I am thinking in ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. I am not thinking in ignorance.(vitamoha citta) 7. I am thinking in non-alert way.(sankhitta citta) 8. I am thinking in upset way. My thoughts are wandering.(vikkhitta) 9. I am developing jhana.(mahaggata citta) 10.I am not developing jhana.(amahaggata citta) 11.I am thinking lower.(sa-uttara citta) 12.I am not thinking lower.(anuttara citta) 13.I am concentrating.(samahita citta) 14.I am not concentrating.(asamahita citta) 15.I am liberating(temporarily).(vimutta citta) 16.I am not liberating.(avimutta citta) These 16 states of mind have to be first recognised before cittanupassana or contemplation on consciousness can be done properly. One perceives again and again that 'this citta arises in me'. At a time he thinks that other individuals will have been in one of these 16 cittas. At another time he perceives that there are cittas arise in him and others. 16 cittas or 16 contemplations is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another set of 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally. So there are 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 contemplations. At a time, the origination of these 16 cittas is perceived. At another time the dissolution of these 16 cittas is perceived. And sometimes both origination and dissolution of these cittas is perceived. So there are 3 extra contemplations on consciousness. 48 + 3 = 51 contemplations on various consciousness or states of mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48977 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tomorrow is Buddhist Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Dhamma friend htootintnaing: >Thanks for this post. It works for westerners. Thanx for the appreciation. It works for all beings... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 48978 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The chemical nature of desire jonoabb Hi Herman I admire the way you are handling your present situation. I think the combination of your little rock (in the right measure) and the dhamma (in copious doses) is the way to go. Hopefully any incidents of depression will be short-lived and manageable. It helps to know that the reality of such incidents is only conditioned dhammas, just like at the present moment, except in different combinations (with unpleasant feeling and certain kinds of thinking being particularly prominent). Good moods and bad moods, all are conditioned, and of limited duration. I have being enjoying your perceptive comments of late, and hoping that any change in your medical condition will not interfere with the continuation of these ;-)) Jon Egbert wrote: >Hi all, > >Some of you may find the following useful or relevant. > >For about two months I have been taking anti-depressants. It comes in >the form of a little pill, a little rock if you like, with only 20 >milligrams of active ingredient. > >... > > 48979 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala jonoabb Hi Larry Just a quick comment on your statement that 'Society determines the desirability of an object.' I know you are basing this on a particular passage in CMA, but I think the passage is simply trying to explain in general terms what is meant by 'desirable' in this context. Thus, a sound that is excessively loud would not be a 'desirable' one, even though there is a segment of society (certain music fans) that enjoys excessively loud sounds. The important thing, as I see it, is that (a) 'object' in this context refers to a sense-door object (visible data, audible data, etc) and not a conventional object , and (b) the passage is just giving a general indication and is not specifying a 'test' to be applied -- it does not purport to be a way for us to tell whether a given object is pleasant or unpleasant. Jon LBIDD@... wrote: >Evan: "Surely the desirability or otherwise of an object can only be >determined once the likeability or otherwise of the object is >determined." > >Hi Evan, > >I'd like to add one small point to the discussion. Society determines >the desirability of an object. You don't really have much say in the >matter. For purposes of satipatthana it is irrelevant. It is simply an >indication of the over-arching ethical determinancy of kamma. Even the >arahants don't fully understand kamma. It is no mystery how desire is >habit forming and destructive, but it is a mystery how a desire today >will result in a kick in the shin in a future life. > >Larry > > 48980 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 484 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo Thanks for bringing up the nivaranas. Very useful to consider. I have just a couple of points to add. htootintnaing wrote: >6. Nivarana dhamma or hindrances or obstructions > >Here there are 2 sets of hindrances. The first set comprises a total >of 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances whereas the second set includes a total >of 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. > >Suttas preache there are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. These 5 >hindrances or nivarana dhamma are > >1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous hindrances' >2. byaapaada nivarana or 'ill-willed hindrances' >3. thina-middha nivarana or 'slothed-torpored hindrances' >4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'wandering-worrying hindrances' >5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious hindrances'. > >These 5 hindrances obstruct arising of jhaana-kusala. > The first is that, as I understand it, the nivaranas are said to 'obstruct the arising of jhaana' in the sense that the development of jhana is not possible at the precise moment of their arising. However, they do not obstruct the development of jhana at other moments (when they subsist as latent tendencies). If they did, then the development of jhana would not be possible. The second point is that the nivaranas include all akusala moments, by virtue of the inclusion of uddhacca, which is a factor present in all moments of akusala consciousness. >... But arising of magga naana is >also obstructed by a dhamma. That dhamma is subtle dhamma. It is so >subtle that even the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama >could not see it, could not eliminate it. > >That subtle dhamma is also a hindrance. It is also an obstruction. >Even though that subtle dhamma do not obstruct jhaana it does hinder >arising of magga-kusala. What is that dhamma? > >It is avijja-nivarana or 'ignoring hindrances'. > > As regards insight/enlightenment, the same considerations apply. A moment of attachment, of aversion, or of ignorance can be followed by a moment of awareness or insight that takes that defiled consciousness as its object. Hence, in the Satipatthana Sutta, section on Cittanupassana, we read: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... Jon 48981 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Bangkok2 jonoabb Hi Sarah and All sarah abbott wrote: >- wrong view and wrong view - if it isn't known now when it arises, it can >never be eradicated....eg,thinking if there was more quiet time there'd be >more conditions for awareness. Any more on this, Jon? > The context was how wrong view of self is something quite specific and is not the same as merely thinking in terms of a person or things -- that being thinking that does not necessarily imply a wrong view of self. An idea of a person of thing can be accompanied by any one of: wrong view (ditthi), attachment (lobha) or conceit (mana). In the latter 2 cases there is no wrong view. Wrong view also arises in connection with ideas about the practice. Whenever there is the idea of 'doing something' in order to have more awareness or insight at that time, there is likely to be wrong view. Like any other dhamma, wrong view can only be directly known as and when it arises, and not at any other time (like afterwards, when considering an earlier mindstate). Jon 48982 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >One question, but. What are we discussing, a theory, or reality? >Discussing the theory would be pretty much an open and shut case. It >says what it says. > >Reality is a bit more nuanced, though. If we start from observation >rather than from dogma, it will be apparent that pain is not a learned >phenomenon, but that pretty much every other evaluation is taught. > You ask, 'Are we discussing theory or a reality?' We are of course discussing reality. However, it is not the case, as your second paragraph seems to suggest, that if it's not our own observation then it must be dogma. Words that purport to describe reality are worthy of consideration, wouldn't you say? The idea that we can start from our own observation, without outside assistance, is a risky if not dangerous one. According to the Buddha, we need all the outside help we can get from others who have a good grasp of the teachings. While silence and solitude have their place, neither is an indispensable factor in the development of the path, as I read the texts and the accounts of attainment of enlightenment contained there. Besides, there is nothing smacking of dogma in the teachings, especially for those of us who see them as being descriptive rather than prescriptive ;-)). Jon 48983 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] 37 companions of enlightenment ( Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ) jonoabb Hi Htoo Another good subject for consideration ;-)) Just to point out that in terms of dhammas, the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhammas represent 13 in total (only), that is, 12 cetasikas and citta (counted as 1). The 12 cetasikas are: sati viiriya chanda panna ekaggataa piiti passaddhi tatramajjattataa vitakka vaci-ducarita viratii (samma-vaca) kaaya-ducarita viratii (samma-kammanta) dujiiva viratii (samma-aajiiva) Jon htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Dhamma Friends, > >There are 37 requisites for enlightenment. They are >called 'Bodhipakkhiya dhammas'. ... > > 48984 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 484 ) htootintnaing Dear Jon, Thanks for your adding and support. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo Thanks for bringing up the nivaranas. Very useful to consider. I have just a couple of points to add. >htootintnaing wrote: > >6. Nivarana dhamma or hindrances or obstructions > >Here there are 2 sets of hindrances. The first set ... .. .. arising of jhaana-kusala. Jon: The first is that, as I understand it, the nivaranas are said to 'obstruct the arising of jhaana' in the sense that the development of jhana is not possible at the precise moment of their arising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. Let us assume there is a queue of potential cittas just going to arise. And then in a matter of a blink these cittas happen one after another. When there are nivarana-cittas or cittas with nivarana-dhamma there is no jhaana. This does not means jhaana does not arise after these nivarana-cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: However, they do not obstruct the development of jhana at other moments (when they subsist as latent tendencies). If they did, then the development of jhana would not be possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. This is what 'anicca' means. Nivarana is anicca. Jhana is anicca. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: The second point is that the nivaranas include all akusala moments, by virtue of the inclusion of uddhacca, which is a factor present in all moments of akusala consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. But uddhacca cetasika is not uddhacca citta. When there is no uddhacca-citta that akusala cittas cannot be called uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. It is true that uddhacca cetasika arises with each and every akusala citta. So uddhacca cetasika is there with all nivaranas. Kaamacchanda has uddhacca cetasika. But it is kaamacchanda nivarana not uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. Byaapaada has uddhacca cetasika. But they are byaapaada nivarana and not uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. Thina- middha has uddhacca cetasika but it is thina-middha nivarana and not uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. Vicikicchaa has uddhacca cetasika. But it is just called vicikicchaa nivarana and not uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >... But arising of magga naana is > >also obstructed by a dhamma. That dhamma is subtle dhamma. It is so > >subtle that even the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama > >could not see it, could not eliminate it. > >That subtle dhamma is also a hindrance. It is also an obstruction. > >Even though that subtle dhamma do not obstruct jhaana it does hinder > >arising of magga-kusala. What is that dhamma? > >It is avijja-nivarana or 'ignoring hindrances'. Jon: As regards insight/enlightenment, the same considerations apply. A moment of attachment, of aversion, or of ignorance can be followed by a moment of awareness or insight that takes that defiled consciousness as its object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccayaa. Akusala support kusala and kusala support akusala. The training is for recognising akusala as deeply as possible. That cognising consciousness is no more akusala but it cognizes akusala as akusala. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon's quote: Hence, in the Satipatthana Sutta, section on Cittanupassana, we read: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thank you very much Jon. With respect, Htoo Naing 48985 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness jonoabb Hi RobM Thanks for this summary of the most important aspect of our last discussion in Hong Kong, and for your additional comments on the subject. My apologies for being so slow in coming in with my own comments. robmoult wrote: >Hi All, > >In our meeting in Hong Kong, Jon and Sarah raised an intriguing point >regarding "formal meditation". ... > >When I met with Phil, he mentioned that he was really enjoying >reading the six sense base Suttas (salayatana-samyutta). This >reminded me of one of my favourite Suttas regarding mindfulness, the >Kimsuka Sutta (SN XXV.204). To me, there are a couple of interesting >points in this Sutta. > >This Sutta starts with a monk asking four fellow monks the way to >purify one's vision and getting four different answers. The first >monk advises observing the six media of sense contact. The second >monk advises observing the five clinging aggregates. The third monk >advises observing the four great elements and the fourth monk >advocates "choiceless awareness" (observing whatever arises). The >Buddha makes the important point that, according to one's >accumulations, one can purify one's vision by different techniques >but following the same principle (seeing things as they truly are). >Choiceless awareness (a favourite among some members of DSG), is one >approach but taking primary objects is an equally valid approach! > You say that the sutta describes four different 'techniques' for purifying one's vision, the fourth being the way of 'choiceless awareness' (the way preferred by some members of DSG). I see the sutta as describing 4 different ways in which dhammas are classified or explained, and hence contemplated, but otherwise as describing only the development of awareness of any presently occurring (and hence 'choiceless') dhamma. The distinction between the two readings is more important than might at first sight appear. If one sees it as a case of 4 'techniques' one of which is characterised as 'choiceless', then I suppose one is bound to see the other 3 as instances of a 'chosen' object of awareness. But that apart, is there any particular reason why reference to 'observing the six media of sense contact ... the five clinging aggregates' should necessarily import in each case a 'chosen' object of awareness? If these are simply references to the same dhammas, classified in different ways, then surely no such implication arises. >The second point of the Sutta is more subtle. ... > >Treating tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana) as a "pair of >messengers" shows that they work together. There has been >considerable discussion on this forum regarding the necessity of >attaining jhanas to become enlightened. At first glance, this Sutta >appears to indicate that jhanas and vipassana work together. However, >if one looks closely at the Tipitaka, one discovers that the Buddha >never equated samatha with jhanas! Though there are many Suttas which >describe the stages of jhana, I have not found any Suttas that >identify the specific object of meditation to attain jhana; all the >listing of meditation objects come from the commentary and later >texts such as the Visuddhimagga, not from the Suttas. Perhaps a DSG >person can point out any Suttas that I may have overlooked. > >In the Suttas, samatha is described as tranquility from one- >pointedness of the mind and vipassana is seeing clearly the three >characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) in all compounded things. > > So am I correct in reading you as concluding that the reference to tranquillity in the sutta should not be taken as support for the idea that jhana is necessary in order to attain insight? If so, then we are in agreement on this point ;-)). >We should strive to have mindfulness in whatever we do. Choiceless >awareness is one technique, but techniques involving primary objects >such as sitting under a tree watching the breath are also valid. The >purpose of the primary object is to install samatha (tranquility and >one-pointedness) as a "partner" / "foundation" to seeing things as >they truly are. > You mention 'techniques involving primary objects such as sitting under a tree watching the breath', and you have in mind here I think the well-known passage in the Satipatthana Sutta (among others, perhaps). Let us turn to the words of the sutta. The reference to mindfulness of in- and out-breathing applies in the case of someone who has (already) 'gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree...', has there established mindfulness before him and, having done so, attends to the in- and out-breathing: "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the body? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and *arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him*. "*Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out*. ... It is only at this stage that the actual 'instruction' for such a person begins: He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands when he is breathing in long; or thinking, 'I breathe out long,' he understands when he is breathing out long; or thinking, 'I breathe in short,' he understands when he is breathing in short; or thinking, 'I breathe out short,' he understands when he is breathing out short. Does this sound like a 'technique' for (beginning) mindfulness of breathing? >So, how do we know what technique is right for us? If a technique >leads to increased mindfulness, if a technique leads to diminishing >of hindrances it is probably suitable for our temperament. > I don't think the Buddha taught any choice of technique. True, he described/classified dhammas differently on different occasions, but I don't think he ever told or suggested to his listeners that the choice was theirs. >So what's my conclusion after all this? I better understand the >position of the "choiceless awareness" camp but I also see that the >Suttas support the selecting of specific objects (six sense bases, >five clinging aggregates, four great elements... and a partridge in a >pear tree :-) ). > > Just to state what I think must be obvious already, if there is on DSG a "choiceless awareness" camp of the kind you describe, it does not include me ;-)). Jon 48986 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] 37 companions of enlightenment ( Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma ) htootintnaing Dear Jon, Of course. This is the way of considering dhamma. There are 37 factors. Basic dhamma units are 13 as you said. But contractions are not always good when in detail is needed. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Another good subject for consideration ;-)) > > Just to point out that in terms of dhammas, the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhammas > represent 13 in total (only), that is, 12 cetasikas and citta (counted > as 1). The 12 cetasikas are: > > sati > viiriya > chanda > panna > ekaggataa > piiti > passaddhi > tatramajjattataa > vitakka > vaci-ducarita viratii (samma-vaca) > kaaya-ducarita viratii (samma-kammanta) > dujiiva viratii (samma-aajiiva) > > Jon 48987 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong Views of a Father jonoabb Hi Mike and Tep m. nease wrote: >Hi Tep, > >... >I'm sure you're familiar with the Piyajaatikasutta, Majjhima Nikaaya (87) >II, Raja-vagga, which is clear on this topic. I don't think that the >dearness of beings is any indication of wrong view in the abhidhamma sense, >though,--that is, I think attachment to beings can arise without the factor >of wrong view per se. Not certain about this though. > > I think what you say here is quite right -- attachment to beings can arise without the factor of wrong view. In fact, I did not see any particular manifestation of wrong view in what Tep wrote, just a parent's normal attachment to his offspring (of course, if the parent has a lot of wrong view in general, then the feelings towards the son or daughter will be correspondingly coloured with wrong view, but otherwise not necessarily so). >It does seem to me that whether attention to this or any other object is >wise or unwise will determine whether subsequent thinking is wholesome or >unwholesome, don't you think? And the nature of the attention will depend >on having heard and considered the Dhamma (or not), I think, more than on >anything else. > > Again, I agree with what you say. When strong akusala arises, especially dosa, there is the tendency to want to 'deal' with it. However, the teachings do not offer us a quick way of overcoming such kilesa, only the comfort that insight into that and other realities will pave the way for eventual enlightenment and release. Jon 48988 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 492 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) Sa.myojana (sanyojana_PTS) are fetters or bonds that bind man to the wheel of transmigration. Because of these fetters beings cannot be released from the samsara or the wheel of transmigration. Because of these fetters beings have to be reborn and be reborn again and again. There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. sakkaaya-ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' The first 3 fetters are destroyed by stream-entering path-knowledge. The first 5 fetters are called 'orambhaagiyani samyojana' or fetters concerned with lower realms or sensuous sphere. The latter 5 fetters are called uddhambhaagiyani samyojana or fetters concerned with higher realms or ruupa and aruupa realms. While the first 3 fetters are eradicated by stream-entering path- knowledge, next 2 more fetters of kaamaraaga and patigha samyojana or fetters are thinned out by sakadaagaami magga naana or once- returning path-knowledge and eradicated by anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge. The last 5 fetters are totally destroyed by arahatta magga naana or defilement-eradicating path-knowledge. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48989 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:49am Subject: Reading posts in thread view jonoabb Dear All (including Chris) If you prefer your messages to be arranged by thread instead of in chronological order, consider getting yourself a G-Mail (by Google) email account. G-Mail accounts automatically sort incoming mails according to their subject heading, and display messages in a thread view, making it easy to follow a current thread or look through an old one. The other advantage of G-Mail is that accounts have a virtually unlimited capacity, and this together with an excellent search engine makes it easy to simply archive all incoming messages (instead of deleting them) for future reference. To start a G-Mail account you need an invitation from an existing subscriber. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Jon 48990 From: "Larry" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Larry > > Just a quick comment on your statement that 'Society determines the > desirability of an object.' > > I know you are basing this on a particular passage in CMA, but I think > the passage is simply trying to explain in general terms what is meant > by 'desirable' in this context. > > Thus, a sound that is excessively loud would not be a 'desirable' one, > even though there is a segment of society (certain music fans) that > enjoys excessively loud sounds. > > The important thing, as I see it, is that (a) 'object' in this context > refers to a sense-door object (visible data, audible data, etc) and not > a conventional object , and (b) the passage is just giving a general > indication and is not specifying a 'test' to be applied -- it does not > purport to be a way for us to tell whether a given object is pleasant or > unpleasant. > > Jon > > > LBIDD@w... wrote: > > >Evan: "Surely the desirability or otherwise of an object can only be > >determined once the likeability or otherwise of the object is > >determined." > > > >Hi Evan, > > > >I'd like to add one small point to the discussion. Society determines > >the desirability of an object. You don't really have much say in the > >matter. For purposes of satipatthana it is irrelevant. It is simply an > >indication of the over-arching ethical determinancy of kamma. Even the > >arahants don't fully understand kamma. It is no mystery how desire is > >habit forming and destructive, but it is a mystery how a desire today > >will result in a kick in the shin in a future life. > > > >Larry > > > > Hi Jon, I just have one qualm with this. I don't think lawyers and merchants would determine anything other than a conventional object as undesirable. Of course a conventional object could be reduced to paramattha dhammas for purposes of insight, but probably not for purposes of law. A law against loud sound would have many conventional particulars attached to it. I don't see any difference between undesirable and unlawful or even unfashionable. Larry 48991 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 493 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhamma according to abhidhamma and the difference is that uddhacca is not counted as samyojana and there will left 9 samyojana. In these 9 samyojanas, 2 samyojanas are combined as bhavaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire on existence'. So there left 8 samyojanas. Abhidhamma counts 'issaa' or 'jealousy' and 'macchariya' or 'stinginess' as samyojana. So these 2 samyojanas are added to 8 samyojanas as calculated above. So in abhidhamma there will be 10 samyojanas and they are _ 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) In this 'abhidhamma set of 10 samyojanas' the first 5 fetters are eradicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge. This happens. Because sotapam-to-be is living independent of self- identity. When this becomes mature this self-identity is eradicated by sotapatti magga naana. How to live independent of self-identity will be discussed in the latter parts of Dhamma Thread. As there is no self-identity at all, sotapams destroy ditthi- samyojana. The 2nd samyojana is also ditthi-related and when there is no ditthi then this samyojana is destroyed. Again this right view on dhamma and clear understanding on selflessness leads to total clearance of all suspicion on Dhamma and this destroys the 3rd samyojana. The 4th and 5th samyojanas are both dependent on the idea of self. That is issaa samyojana arises because of wrong-view of self-identity that there is one self and that self is better than his self. When self-identity is eradicated then issaa cannot arise any more. The 5th samyojana is dependent also on self-indentity. It arises because one does not want to share his own to others, where both his self and others' selves are dependent on idea of self. When self- identity is eradicated then there is no more macchariya or stinginess. The middle 2 samyojanas of kaamaraaga and patigha are thinned out by sakadaagaami magga naana or once-returning path-knowledge. Because of this once-returner are lighter than sotapam in the weightage of kaamaraaga and patigha samyojana. But sakadagams are still having kaama raaga or sexual desire and patigha or aggression. Anagami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge eradicate these 2 samyojana and anagams are free of kaama raaga and patigha. So anagams will not have any sexual desire and they will not have any hatred or aggression or ill-will. The last 3 fetters of bhavaraaga samyojana, maana samyojana and avijjaa samyojana are eradicted only by arahatta magga naana or 'eradicating path-knowledge'. When there are no more samyojana or no more fetter then individual is no more bound to any further existence. So they will not be reborn again and as soon as they die there is no more traces of any regarding those individuals arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 48992 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:02pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> buddhistmedi... Hi, members interested in Breathing Treatise - The second part of para 217-238 is now given. 224. How are perceptions(sanna) recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? How is the arising of perception recognized? The arising of perception is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of perception ... With the arising of craving ... With the arising of contact ... [and so on as in para #200 up to the end]. 225. How are applied-thoughts recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of applied-thoughts recognized? The arising of applied-thoughts(vitakka) is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of applied- thoughts ...With the arising of craving ...With the arising of action (kamma) ...With the arising of perception ... [and so on as in para 200, substituting 'perception' for 'contact' up to the end] ... This is how applied-thoughts are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. { Para 200.} How are feelings(vedana) recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation(nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized. How is the appearance(establishment = uppatthaana) of feeling recognized? When he gives attention(manasikara) [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance(establishment) as exhaustion is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized. How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving there is a cessation of feeling ...With the cessation of action(kamma) there is a cessation of feeling... The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact there is a cessation of feeling . Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of change (viparinaama), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. {End of para 200} This is how feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. [Combining the Faculties, etc. ] 226. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths, he combines (samodhaaneti) the faculties(indriya), understands their domain (gocara), and penetrates their meaning(attha) of sameness(sama); he combines the powers(bala) ...; he combines the enlightenment factors (bojjhanga) ...; he combines the path(magga) ...; he combines [other] ideas(dhamma), understands their domain, and penetrates their meaning of sameness. 227. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties? He combines the faith faculty(saddha indriya) through its meaning of resolution(adhimokkha), he combines the energy faculty(viriya indriya) through its meaning of exertion(vayamati), he combines the mindfulness faculty(sati indriya) through its meaning of establishment (foundation, upatthana), he combines the concentration faculty (samadhi indriya) through its meaning of non-distraction(avikkhepa), he combines the understanding faculty(panna indriya) through its meaning of seeing(dassana). This person combines these faculties on this object. Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said. 228. He 'understands their domain': his supporting object is his domain (gocara); his domain is his supporting object(aarammana). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding. [Read 'aarammanam Pajaanaati puggalo. Pajaananaa pannaa'.] 'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object(aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said. 229 'He understands their domain: ... [etc. as in para 205 up to the end]. {Para 205. } 205. He 'understands their domain'("gocaranca pajaanaatii" ti,: his supporting object is his domain (yam tassa aarammanam, tam tassa gocaram); his domain is his supporting object (yam tassa gocaram, tam tassa aarammanam). He understands, thus he is a person; the act- of-understanding is understanding (pajaanaatii ti puggalo pajaananaa pannaa). 'Sameness': (sama): the appearance of the supporting-object is sameness (aarammanassa upatthaanam samam), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness(cittassa avikkhepo samam), [the steadiness of cognizance is sameness (cittassa aditthaanam samam),] the cleansing of cognizance is sameness (cittassa vodaanam samam). 'Meaning': (attha) meaning as blameless (anavijja), meaning as without defilement (niklesa), meaning as cleansing (vodaana), ultimate meaning (parama). 'Penetrates' (patvijjhati): he penetrates the appearance of the supporting object (aarammanassa upatthana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of cognizance (cittassa avikkhepa pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance (cittassa aditthaana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance (cittassa vodaana pativijjhati). Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said (tena vuccati "samatthanca pativijjhatii" ti). {End of para 205} 230. 'He combines the path': how does he combine(samodhaaneti) the path? He combines right view through its meaning of seeing (dassana). He combines right thought(sankappa) through its meaning of directing onto(abhiniropana). He combines right speaking through its meaning of embracing(pariggaha). He combines right acting through its meaning of originating(samutthaana). He combines right living through its meaning of cleansing(vodaana). He combines right effort through its meaning of exerting. He combines right mindfulness through its meaning of establishing (foundation). He combines right concentration(samaadhi) through its meaning of non-distraction. This person combines this path on this object. Hence 'he combines the path' is said. 231. He understands its domain: ...[etc. as in para 205 up to the end]. 232. 'He combines(samodhaaneti) [other] ideas'(dhamma): how does he combine [other] ideas? He combines the faculties through their meaning of dominance(aadhipateyya). He combines the powers through their meaning of unshakability(akampiya). He combines the enlightenment factors through their meaning of outlet(niyyaana). He combines the path through its meaning of cause(hetu). He combines the foundations (establishments) of mindfulness through their meaning of establishment(foundation). He combines the right endeavours through their meaning of exertion. He combines the basis for success (roads to power, iddhipaada) through their meaning of succeeding (ijjhana). He combines the actualities(sacca) through their meaning of suchness(tathataa) (reality). 233. He combines serenity through its meaning of non-distraction. He combines insight through its meaning of contemplation. He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single function(taste). He combines coupling(yuganandha) through its meaning of non-excess (anativattana). 234. He combines purification of virtue through its meaning of restraint. He combines purification of cognizance through its meaning of non- distraction. He combines purification of view through its meaning of seeing(dassana). He combines liberation(vimokkha) through its meaning of deliverance(vimutti). He combines recognition(vijjaa) through its meaning of penetration(pativedha). He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up(caaga). He combines knowledge of exhaustion through the sense of cutting off(samuccheda). He combines knowledge of non-arising anuppaadenaana) in its meaning of tranquillization. 235. Zeal he combines through its meaning of root(muula). Attention (manasikaara) he combines through its meaning of originating (samutthaana). Contact(phassa) he combines through its meaning of combining. Feeling he combines through its meaning of meeting. Concentration he combines through its meaning of its being foremost. Mindfulness he combines through its meaning of dominance. Understanding he combines through its meaning of being highest of all. Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core(saara). Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its meaning of ending(pariyosaana). This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object. Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said. 236. He combines serenity through its meaning of non-distraction. He combines insight through its meaning of contemplation. He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single function(taste). He combines coupling(yuganandha) through its meaning of non-excess (anativattana). 237. He combines purification of virtue through its meaning of restraint. He combines purification of cognizance through its meaning of non- distraction. He combines purification of view through its meaning of seeing(dassana). He combines liberation(vimokkha) through its meaning of deliverance(vimutti). He combines recognition(vijjaa) through its meaning of penetration(pativedha). He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up(caaga). He combines knowledge of exhaustion through the sense of cutting off(samuccheda). He combines knowledge of non-arising (anuppaadenaana) in its meaning of tranquillization. 238. Zeal he combines through its meaning of root(muula). Attention (manasikaara) he combines through its meaning of originating (samutthaana). Contact(phassa) he combines through its meaning of combining. Feeling he combines through its meaning of meeting. Concentration he combines through its meaning of its being foremost. Mindfulness he combines through its meaning of dominance. Understanding he combines through its meaning of being highest of all. Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core(saara). Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its meaning of ending(pariyosaana). This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object. Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said. --------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > (8/16/05) > > This week we study paragraphs 217 - 238 for the 2nd vatthu (ground) of > the anapanasati meditation, i.e. breathing in & out , short. These are > short paragraphs and the whole content is similar to that of the 1st > vatthu. (The Roman numeral ii below denotes the 2nd ground.) > > (ii) > (snipped) > > How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? The subsiding of feeling > is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the > cessation of ignorance there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of > feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With > the cessation of craving there is a cessation of feeling ...With the > cessation of action(kamma) there is a cessation of feeling... The > subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned > cessation thus: With the cessation of contact there is a cessation of > feeling . Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of change > (viparinaama), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how > the subsiding of feeling is recognized. > > This is how feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise, > recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. [to be > continued] > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Respectfully, > > > > Tep > > ============ 48993 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> lbidd2 BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object(aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said." Hi Tep, Did Nina explain this? The way I see it 'the appearance of object is sameness' means appearance and object are the same, like a mirror image (there is something in Vism. about this). 'Non-distraction of cognizance is sameness' means cognizance (citta?) and non-distraction (samadhi?) are the same in the sense of arising as one. 'Cleansing of cognizance is sameness' means the purifying because true recognition concept ( aka 'meaning') (e.g. 'short out-breath') and cognizance are the same because of arising as one. Here I'm going with meaning as cleansing, cleansing as purifying defilements of wrong recognition (sanna vipallasa), guessing that this refers to recognition as in, 'short out-breath'. 'Penetrates the meaning' I take to be non-conceptual understanding or 'seeing' of the own-nature (sabhava) of steadiness (patthana?) etc. Does that work? Larry 48994 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Dear Htoo, Ht:> No control on dhamma. All are anatta. M: I think the word 'control' implies many things like the need for someone to do the controling, which is incorrect at a lokuttara- supramundane level. Nevertheless the event exists. It is possible to change something ie there is 'changing'. I think even though the idea of controlling is partially incompatible on a lokuttara level, to live accordingly is a bit silly. For example it would be like insisting that we all live without names, homes or possessions because there is no self or anything such as 'belonging'. What would happen if we lived without changing and controlling our deeds, words and thoughts? There would be no sila. There would be no compassion. There would be no learning. Lokiya and lokuttara arent completely divorced from each other. They reflect each other, but the reflection isnt a perfect one. I think it takes skill to know one but yet operate in the other. metta Matheesha 48995 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Dear Htoo, Ht:> No control on dhamma. All are anatta. Matheesha: Lokiya and lokuttara arent completely divorced from each other. They reflect each other, but the reflection isnt a perfect one. I think it takes skill to know one but yet operate in the other. metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Matheesha, That is right. It takes skill to know but yet operate in the other. Arahats are still in lokii. When in lokii, they all comply with lokii. With respect, Htoo Naing 48996 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: The chemical nature of desire egberdina Hi Htoo, You show great appreciation for the enormous complexity that underlies experience. I would be very interested to examine further some of the ideas you raise, especially to do with kamma. Are you interested in such a discussion? Kind Regards Herman > But chemistry in mad people or insane people are difficult to > controlled even though they may well be manipulated by psychiatrists > and psychiatrists gauge the dose of chemical drugs though their > effects as evidenced by 'behaviour of patients'. > > Actually, real basis is there in their 'kamma'. > > Once 'kamma' expires to give effect as 'insanity', there will not be > any signs of madness or insanity. Even though there might be some > after effects of changing brain chemistry. > > Diseases may be cured. But kamma cannot be cured without higher > knowledge or anuttara naana or magga naana or path-knowledge. > 48997 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Matheesha: "What would happen if we lived without changing and controlling our deeds, words and thoughts? There would be no sila. There would be no compassion. There would be no learning." Hi Matheesha and Htoo, I would like to say that no control doesn't mean no change. No control means everything happens because of dependent arising. 100% engagement with family and likelihood is dependent arising. Sila, compassion, and learning arise with myriads of dhammas, conditioned by myriads of dhammas. Path consciousness is the end of grasping but not the end of dependent arising until the final death consciousness of the arahant. No need to hold back, thinking, "I have to wash the dishes before experiencing nibbana". There is no control in washing the dishes. Not even a little. "Letting go of control" is a euphemism for the conditioned arising of bewilderment (moha). There is no control to let go of. In reality control is attachment (upadana). But attachment isn't in control. It arises with myriads of other dhammas, conditioned by myriads of dhammas. Then they're all gone. Larry 48998 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:19pm Subject: Re: The chemical nature of desire egberdina Thanks, Jon, for your kind words of encouragement. Wouldn't it be nice if I could take credit for how things unfold? No such luck :-) But then again, I don't have to take the blame for anything either. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > I admire the way you are handling your present situation. I think the > combination of your little rock (in the right measure) and the dhamma > (in copious doses) is the way to go. Hopefully any incidents of > depression will be short-lived and manageable. It helps to know that > the reality of such incidents is only conditioned dhammas, just like at > the present moment, except in different combinations (with unpleasant > feeling and certain kinds of thinking being particularly prominent). > Good moods and bad moods, all are conditioned, and of limited duration. > > I have being enjoying your perceptive comments of late, and hoping that > any change in your medical condition will not interfere with the > continuation of these ;-)) > > Jon > > Egbert wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > >Some of you may find the following useful or relevant. > > > >For about two months I have been taking anti-depressants. It comes in > >the form of a little pill, a little rock if you like, with only 20 > >milligrams of active ingredient. > > > >... > > > > 48999 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala egberdina Hi Jon, > > >One question, but. What are we discussing, a theory, or reality? > >Discussing the theory would be pretty much an open and shut case. It > >says what it says. > > > >Reality is a bit more nuanced, though. If we start from observation > >rather than from dogma, it will be apparent that pain is not a learned > >phenomenon, but that pretty much every other evaluation is taught. > > > > You ask, 'Are we discussing theory or a reality?' We are of course > discussing reality. However, it is not the case, as your second > paragraph seems to suggest, that if it's not our own observation then it > must be dogma. Words that purport to describe reality are worthy of > consideration, wouldn't you say? > Yes, quite correct. I appreciate what you are saying here, but in my defense, I was only referring to this specific discussion in this instance. ( I know I do carry on about a theory-free approach to reality). At some point of time, though, one would hope that there is a place where the rubber hits the road, and we allow ourselves to test any theory put forward. I would think that a question such as "are there intrinsically un/desirable objects" would ultimately have to have empirically-founded answers. > The idea that we can start from our own observation, without outside > assistance, is a risky if not dangerous one. I agree. On the other hand, starting from a faith-based position, without ever progressing to testing that faith is also risky IMHO. According to the Buddha, > we need all the outside help we can get from others who have a good > grasp of the teachings. While silence and solitude have their place, > neither is an indispensable factor in the development of the path, as I > read the texts and the accounts of attainment of enlightenment contained > there. > > Besides, there is nothing smacking of dogma in the teachings, especially > for those of us who see them as being descriptive rather than > prescriptive ;-)). I am going to take my own advice to you a while ago, about meeting people where they are at, and discuss with you as though the tipitaka were entirely descriptive. Heaven help you if you slip any prescriptive material in :-) Kind Regards Herman