49000 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:09pm Subject: The Quantum States of Being ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Quantum Mechanics of Existence: Discrete States! Any being bound for awakening, fixed in destiny, knows & understands: Mere discrete states alone exist, devoid of any self or of anything at all pertaining to a self! These states arise and terminate in accordance with their nature and the conditions that caused them to emerge.. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere! There is no agency in anything, in any phenomena whatsoever! There is only a momentary arising & ceasing of mental & physical states! The Theory of Discrete States (Dhamma) for the Beginner: The Dhamma Theory: The Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma Y. Karunadasa. Wheel 412/413 Buddhist Publication Society http://www.bps.lk/ http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403412 The Theory of Discrete States (Dhamma) for the Moderate: Introduction to: A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. B. Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html The Theory of Discrete States (Dhamma) for the Advanced: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma by R. Gethin & R.P. Wijeratne http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=134121 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 49001 From: "bruce" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 0:59am Subject: [dsg] undesirable object brucebogusz > At some point of time, though, one would hope that there is a place > where the rubber hits the road, and we allow ourselves to test any > theory put forward. I would think that a question such as "are there > intrinsically un/desirable objects" would ultimately have to have > empirically-founded answers. I'm jumping into a long threaded discussion I fear, however, intrinsically isn't an object neither desirable nor undesirable? Isn't an object just itself? Bruce 49002 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread (494 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' or abhidhamma says there are 10 fetters. They are 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) The 1st set of 10 fetters or samyojanas is from sutta and the 2nd set is from abhidhamma. There are middle 2 fetters called kaamaraaga samyojana and patgha samyojana. These 2 fetters stay in the middle in both lists of samyojana or fetter. According to abhidhamma the first 5 will be eradicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knpwledge. According to suttas, the first 3 fetters will be eradicated by sotapatti magga naana. Likewise, according to abhidhamma the last remaining 3 fetters will be eradicated by arahatta magga naana or defilements-eradicating path- knowledeg. According to suttas the last 5 fetters will be eradicated by arahatta magga naana. In both lists, the middle 2 fetters called kaamaraaga samyojana or fetter of sensuality and patgha samyojana or fetter of aggression or ill-will are thinned out by sakadagami magga naana or once-returing path-knowledge and eradicated by anagami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge. When both lists are compiled these are basic dhamma of these 2 sets of samyojana or fetters. 1. lobha(kaamaraaga, ruuparaaga, aruuparaaga// kaamaraaga, bhavaraaga) 2. dosa (patigha) 3. maana (maana) 4. ditthi (ditthi, silabbataparaamaasa) 5. vicikicchaa (vicikicchaa) 6. uddhacca (uddhacca) 7. issaa (issaa) 8. macchariya (macchariya) 9. moha (avijjaa) These 9 cetasika dhammas behave as fetters or samyojana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49003 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: The chemical nature of desire htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > You show great appreciation for the enormous complexity that underlies > experience. > > I would be very interested to examine further some of the ideas you > raise, especially to do with kamma. > > Are you interested in such a discussion? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, Actually I will welcome anyone who want to discuss Dhamma. If time allow me to discuss I will be doing so. Pychiatric disorders are like magic. As we are not experts in such matter it will be difficult to talk on these matters. But I have met some people, at the time when I met them they seemed hopeless. Hopeless here mean they will be chronic patients. But to my surprise, some of them were totally cured and they did not have any of features of insane people. They might have received psychiatric treatment and received medications. But I did not think it was the answer of cure. Kamma do work. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: My gift is that try to abstain from alcohol in any form permanently and try to abstain using 'additive drugs' if someone is still using. Help other people to be happy in all ways and at all cost. In this way depressive disorder may even be cured if insight is not lost. If insight is lost this means total madness. 49004 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] is a desirable object kusala onco111 Dear RobertK, Brief comments interspersed... (and some snipping) > Even if you doubt that Buddhaghosa was an arahant you should know > that he was editing the words of the arahants. I don't see how that's relevant. The question is not about his understanding, it's about his exposition. I think we've all had professors who are extremely intelligent and thoroughly knowledgable in their field but sometimes come up with explanations that don't make much sense... > To ask if I put them on the same level as the Buddha word is > taking a narrow view. That's right. And that's the exact narrow sense in which I "discount" the commentaries -- they are great, I rely on them a great deal, but the teaching in them is nowhere near the same level as the Buddha word. > I guess in such a huge amount of material there must be errors > somewhere, but I am certain I don't have the wisdom to know where. Some errors do not require much wisdom to discern. For example, if I accidently write "3+2=6" on the board in an introductory statistics class, I would expect even the poorest student to be able to see the mistake. If they pointed it out, I would be appreciative rather than offended that they were "presuming to have greater wisdom than me, a statistics expert." I think if someone told Buddhagosa that his explanation of intrinsically desirable/undesirable just didn't work because "average man" is a strikingly non-constant social construct at best and completely bogus at worst, he'd probably laugh and say, "Well, THAT explanation doesn't work. How about this instead: ..." With appreciation and metta, Dan 49005 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, ------------------------ M: > I think the word 'control' implies many things like the need for someone to do the controling, which is incorrect at a lokuttara- supramundane level. ------------------------- I think you mean it is incorrect at the paramattha, or absolute, level. The word lokuttara refers to Path-consciousness, which directly experiences Nibbana. ----------------------- M: > Nevertheless the event exists. It is possible to change something ie there is 'changing'. ----------------------- In conventional reality (which is ultimately illusory) it seems as if things persist over a period of time - even if in a changed form. But at the paramattha level there is nothing that changes from one form to another. There are only conditioned dhammas, none of which lasts more than a billionth of a second. ----------------------------------- M: > I think even though the idea of controlling is partially incompatible on a lokuttara level, to live accordingly is a bit silly. For example it would be like insisting that we all live without names, homes or possessions because there is no self or anything such as 'belonging'. What would happen if we lived without changing and controlling our deeds, words and thoughts? There would be no sila. There would be no compassion. There would be no learning. --------------------------------- No, it is not like that at all. Right understanding of impermanence (anicca) and no-control (anatta) does not mean that conventional daily life becomes unworkable. ---------- M: > Lokiya and lokuttara arent completely divorced from each other. They reflect each other, but the reflection isnt a perfect one. ----------- Yes, that is a good point - except for the mistakes in terminology. The correct terminology is "conventional" and "ultimate." (The word "lokiya" is used to describe cittas and cetasikas that take either a concept or a conditioned dhamma as their object.) ----------------------- M: > I think it takes skill to know one but yet operate in the other. ------------------------ I agree with that too, but it is not necessary to believe control is ultimately real. Control is just a conventional explanation for the way things happen. We can understand ultimate cause-and-effect and talk about conventional cause-and-effect at the same time. Ken H -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > Ht:> No control on dhamma. All are anatta. > > M: I think the word 'control' implies many things like the need for 49006 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object kenhowardau Hi Bruce, ----- > I'm jumping into a long threaded discussion I fear, however, > intrinsically isn't an object neither desirable nor undesirable? Isn't > an object just itself? ----- All ultimately real objects (namas and rupas) have intrinsic, properties. In a similar way, some conventionally real objects have intrinsic properties. Metals, for example, can be "magnetic" or "nonmagnetic". Certain rupas can be desirable or undesirable. A desirable rupa can become the object of kusala sense-consciousness just as iron can become the object of a magnet. :-) Ken H 49007 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:46am Subject: e-card from Bangkok 3 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Packing for our return to Hong Kong tomorrow..... Another great day of discussion with A.Sujin and friends today. Especially good to have Num (and his texts for reference) with us.... Before I give a brief summary, one extra comment I meant to add for Htoo the other day. Htoo, in the number of path factors when jhana is used as basis, an extra point you raised with regard to when the first 5 disciples were being addressed, there was/is not jhana al the time, therefore all factors have to be developed... Discussion topics from today **************************** - adhivaccana dhamma (words)....without words, we wouldn't know what apears. Nirutti (as in nirutti patisambhida) refers to language and understanding of language - Pahana sutta and abandoning, nibbana included in dhammayatana to be abandoned, i.e all clinging and anusaya (latent tendencies) -gravity for RobM....'thinking about everything except paramattha dhammas':)which rupas are experienced? - more on breath as reality (pathavi, tejo, vayo) and as concept of breath 'long and short' can be known as reality of breath, but 'in and out' only as concepts '. (Tep, I think Num is interested in discussing and occasionally help us on the 'breathing' threads....)Many different rupas in succession lead to the impression or nimitta of breath, like the impression of 'left and right' now... - more on nimitta. Now there is nimitta of visible object or sound when there isn't direct awareness and it isn't a dhatu (element)....different kinds of nimitta or impressions...like a circle of fire - consider a depression pill as food, Herman. Lots on whether rupas can affect moods and the arising of kusala cittas...Sukin's 'baby'....:)Less dosa and more metta or less dosa and more attachment? - more on cula sotapannas...what kinds of akusala kamma patha they're capable of.'Not definite' and who knows? Sotapannas reborn as humans? No examples found. - vipassana nanas...mind door no longer covered up like now. Even if there is awareness of realities now such as lobha, dosa or thinking, the mind door is still 'covered up'. - more on the 4 sampajannas...without any one of them, satipatthana cannot arise. These 4 aspects condition satiptatthana and the growth of panna. - clarification of the meanings of nama in the Atth text....a) names, b)experiencing of objects, c)objects conditioning namas. Here the objects refer to all objects inc nibbana and pannati - more on the conditions for last javana cittas of life inc past kamma, decisive support condition and the kamma which conditions the last cuti citta. Also for last javanas in the case of an anagami resulting in rebirth in special rupa brahma realm even if no previous attainment of jhanas - importance of discussion (as on DSG!) and more discussion. Danger of living in isolation of feedback and questioning - Jhana, meditation, what other teachers say - some are bhikkhus of 30 years and comments made here are by some of us are a minority view. 'Never mind who says what!'. Meaning of samatha, samatha with vipassana when understanding this moment vs following a method. Prescriptive/Descriptive when we read 'Develop'....not sure if we agreed, did we Chris or Ivan or Sukin? (Chris, pls add the Brahmavamso comments anytime for further discussion too) - Friends - real vs cyber and meaning of kalyana mitta.. forget what was said, Sukin or Chris? (and Num, forgotten what the Milinda panha refs were in regard to...pls help) - Vinaya....not imitation of the bhikkhu (for lay people), learning from examples, knowing accumulations. Following rules is not the development of satipatthana - In samatha, panna knows kusala as kusala, akusala as akusala as concepts. Like now. - levitation (for Ken H & Steve).....even a yogi can levitate because of the cittas, not necessarily pure in anyway....anything possible. Access concentration is a very highly developed level of samatha, but no refs with regard to levitation given - most surprising conclusion for me....Can there be kusala other than satipatthana through the sense doors? We can't even say there cannot be metta or jealousy or any cetasikas which have beings as object through the sense doors as well as the mind doors.....Teachers of old disagreed on this...(Worasak may find me a reference in due course:) - drug induced perceptions....still only namas and rupas....anything can happen - tendencies of akusala such as wrong speech....any point in avoiding situations? Not understanding conditioned dhammas - alzheimers, heavily sedated end of life and so on....we can't know about final cittas ever - cetasikas accumulate in the citta means in the citta and accompanying cetasikas. 'They can't be separated' - 'If there is no contempaltion of reality (now or in the past), there cannot be patisambhida (of all ariyans) because it's just in the book'/ Num found the reference for A.Sujin's comment in the Patisambhida Magga. I think the 5 conditions given are: a) attending to enlightenment b) pariyatti c) listening d) questioning e) previous effort (viriya) Hope to get corrections on this and any further snippets from anyone else attending, BUT also reflecting on 'hope is clinging to nothing'! That's it til I settle back in Hong Kong.... Many thanks for all the great list discussions in our absence too...it's been a real pleasure following them. Metta, Sarah ========= 49008 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object sarahprocter... Hi Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > I'm jumping into a long threaded discussion I fear, however, > intrinsically isn't an object neither desirable nor undesirable? Isn't > an object just itself? .... S: I see KenH has already replied and Herman may too. Just a quick welcome here. You're obviously comfortable with some of the terminology, so pls share anything about your background/interest if you care to and maybe, where you live too. [I'm thinking of Bruce in the DSG early days and his keen interest....(RobK and others will remember him well)]. Metta, Sarah (really signing off to pack this time....) ============= 49009 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:31am Subject: Left & Right (Re: [dsg] e-card from Bangkok 3) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Have a good trip home! In a message dated 8/20/05 9:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Many different rupas in succession lead to the impression or nimitta of breath, like the impression of 'left and right' now... ======================= Left and right as regards conventional objects other than our own bodies are derivative and conceptual. I strongly suspect, however, that left and right experienced in one's body are "locational rupas". They are discernible and distinguishable (experiential) realities (under normal conditions, of course). I find myself unable to *define* them and their difference, but I still *know* them and their difference. Likewise, I cannot *define* the sensations of hardness and warmth, but I can discern and distinguish them. [I'm not talking about the *names* of 'left' and 'right' - we could call them "fizdak" and "birbak", and that would be just as good!] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49010 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry (and Nina) - Thank you for the questions. I think Nina wil be delighted to respond to your questions and my reply too. > Larry: Did Nina explain this? Tep: Nina explained "combine"; she has not explained "meaning" yet. > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object (aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. > 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without > defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. > 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of > the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. > Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said." > >Larry: The way I see it 'the appearance of object is sameness' means appearance and object are the same, like a mirror image (there is something in Vism. about this). >'Non-distraction of cognizance is sameness' means cognizance (citta?) and non-distraction (samadhi?) are the same in the sense of arising as one. > 'Cleansing of cognizance is sameness' means the purifying because true recognition concept ( aka 'meaning') (e.g. 'short out-breath') and >cognizance are the same because of arising as one. Tep: Appearance is 'upatthaana' in Pali. The word 'arising' is 'uppaada' in Pali. The Pali for non-distraction is 'avikkhepa' (PTS: avikkhepa = calmness, balance, equanimity). The Translator of BT said the Pali for 'cognizance' is 'citta'. The Pali 'sama' means calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). So, you see, "sameness(sama)" does not imply that two things are "the same". The Thai version of BT: 'Sameness' is: "the aarammana appears as calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta is calmness". These are not sameness "in the sense of arising as one". >Larry: Here I'm going with meaning as cleansing, cleansing as purifying defilements of wrong recognition (sanna vipallasa), > guessing that this refers to recognition as in, 'short out-breath'. Tep: The closest meanings for the Pali 'attha' are profit, attainment, advantage, gain (see PTS). So it makes more sense by the Thai version of 'Meaning', which reads: "dhammas without drawbacks are gain, dhammas without defilement are gain, cleansing dhammas are attainment, adhidhammas are attainment". Here cognizance cleansing is an attainment or gain. >Larry :> 'Penetrates the meaning' I take to be non-conceptual understanding or 'seeing' of the own-nature (sabhava) of steadiness (patthana?) etc. Does that work? Tep: Yes, it does. Another way to look at it is by noting that the seeing with wisdom that leaves no room for doubts is "penetrating the dhamma". Hence, 'penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of cognizance' means (he) clearly understands the calmness of citta as a gain. That's just a thought. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object (aarammana) is > sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the > cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 49011 From: nina Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:53am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear Friends, This is from Ch 6, Taking Refuge in Buddhism: Taken from Ch 7: The Right Way and the Wrong Way, Dhamma Discussions in Pnompenh (Part One) ***** Nina. 49012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> nilovg Hi Tep and Larry, I am short, because I am just back. It is as you, Tep, said at the end. Attha: gain. In Thai: prajod. It seems clearer. Nina. op 20-08-2005 20:03 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > >> Larry: Did Nina explain this? > > Tep: Nina explained "combine"; she has not explained "meaning" yet. 49013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Larry)- Not so long ago I asked you a question about balancing faith (saddha) with wisdom(pañña). Today I read an article by the late Ven. Nyanaponika and thought of you. A number of issues we discussed in the past are related to the following excerpt. "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). If intellect remains without the confidence, devotion and zeal of faith, it will stop short at a mere theoretical understanding and intellectual appreciation of teachings meant to be lived and not only thought or talked about. In the words of our simile: intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' an activity with a very busy and important appearance but with few actual results. Intellect separated from faith will lack the firm belief in its own power to be the guide on the path of life. Without this inner conviction it will hesitate to follow in earnest its own conclusions and commands; it will lack the courage to make an actual start on the task of 'crossing over.' "Faith as a supplementary quality, supported by the vigor and endurance of energy (viriya), will give wings to the intellect, enabling it to rise above the barrenness of unapplied knowledge and the futile wordy wars of conceptual thought. In exchange, intellect will give to faith discriminative judgment and reliable guidance. It will prevent faith from becoming exhausted, from wasting its energies by ineffective emotional effusions and misdirected efforts. Therefore, faith and intellect should always be harmonized. With right mindfulness keeping them balanced, the two together will prove to be ideal companions, able to meet by their combined efforts any dangers and difficulties on the road to liberation. Courageous Faith by Nyanaponika Thera From The Vision of the Dhamma (ISBN 955-24-0108-9) Tep: How do you like it? I like "intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' ", lacking the commitment to cross over, and "wordy wars of conceptual thought". Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Larry, > I am short, because I am just back. > It is as you, Tep, said at the end. Attha: gain. In Thai: prajod. It seems > clearer. > Nina. > op 20-08-2005 20:03 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > >> Larry: Did Nina explain this? > > > > Tep: Nina explained "combine"; she has not explained "meaning" yet. 49014 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:22am Subject: Threads made by/on a spinning wheel ksheri3 It seems I've neglected reading the DSG for a while and ran into a good discussion where people were trying to comprehend "an object's" "desirability" i.e. Ken, Herman, Bruce, et al. Nama and rupa were raised but these are simply words. They describe or indentify something to ourselves or an other. Please see Jaq. Derrida and the Deconstructionist views. the discussion got into wether or not pain was learned behavior. I have been a member of the sado-masochistic society (S & M/B & D society) in the past and know that some people truely enjoy pain. With this as the case then how can we blatantly say that pain is not a desirable sensation or condition? By all means look into our good friend the Marquise de Sade. Does the object possess the quality of desirability or craving? Why does an individual value this quality to place it into a category of desirability? Why would I choose to drink the kool aid of Jonestown or the Arsenic of the Greeks given to Socrates as a desirable state to obtain or achieve? Interesting points you all have raised. alas, I've gotta get back to meditation on the jhanas, maggas, etc. toodles, colette 49015 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object egberdina Hi Ken, Bruce, Colette, > > ----- > > I'm jumping into a long threaded discussion I fear, however, > > intrinsically isn't an object neither desirable nor undesirable? > Isn't > > an object just itself? > ----- > > All ultimately real objects (namas and rupas) have intrinsic, > properties. In a similar way, some conventionally real objects have > intrinsic properties. Metals, for example, can be "magnetic" > or "nonmagnetic". Certain rupas can be desirable or undesirable. A > desirable rupa can become the object of kusala sense-consciousness > just as iron can become the object of a magnet. :-) > Ken, it would help me a great deal if you could give me an example or two of an intrinsically desirable rupa, or some undesirable ones. Kind Regards Herman 49016 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The chemical nature of desire egberdina Hi Htoo and (Larry), > Dear Herman, > > Actually I will welcome anyone who want to discuss Dhamma. If time > allow me to discuss I will be doing so. > > Pychiatric disorders are like magic. As we are not experts in such > matter it will be difficult to talk on these matters. But I have > met some people, at the time when I met them they seemed hopeless. > > Hopeless here mean they will be chronic patients. But to my surprise, > some of them were totally cured and they did not have any of features > of insane people. > > They might have received psychiatric treatment and received > medications. > But I did not think it was the answer of cure. > > Kamma do work. > I do not understand, at all, how teachings about kamma and anatta can both come under the one umbrella of Buddhism. I understand very well Larry's recent statement that where there is no self there is no kamma. And I understand that the Buddha was born into a world where there were very precise ideas about dhamma, citta and kamma. And the Buddha's message in that world was anatta, anatta, anatta. For me, a teaching about kamma is a teaching about conditionality in relation to a self. (Which means that a teaching about kusala kamma and akusala kamma is also a teaching about self.) Teachings about kamma negate teachings about anatta. Am I misunderstanding something? Kind Regards Herman 49017 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Vism.XIV,185 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [C. CLASSIFICATION OF THE AGGREGATES] 185. The foregoing section, firstly, is that of the detailed explanation of the aggregates according to the Abhidhamma-Bhaajaniya [of the Vibha"nga]. But the aggregates have been given in detail by the Blessed One [in the Suttanta-Bhaajaniya] in this way: 'Any materiality whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: all together in the mass and in the gross is called the materiality aggregate. Any feeling whatever ... Any perception whatever ... Any formations whatever ... Any consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present ... all that together in the mass and in the gross is called the consciousness aggregate' (Vbh.1-9; cf. M.iii,17). 49018 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok1 egberdina Hi Sarah, Thanks for all your information-packed accounts of the discussions in Bangkok. I could ask a million questions, but I'll start with just one :-) > - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door so can't > be known. > Is this what the consensus was? I am sure that I have previously read that K Sujin said that bhavanga cittas objects can be known. Kind Regards Herman 49019 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: Left & Right (Re: [dsg] e-card from Bangkok 3) egberdina Hi Howard, On 21/08/05, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Have a good trip home! > > In a message dated 8/20/05 9:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Many different rupas > in succession lead to the impression or nimitta of breath, like the > impression of 'left and right' now... > ======================= > Left and right as regards conventional objects other than our own bodies > are derivative and conceptual. > I strongly suspect, however, that left and right experienced in one's > body are "locational rupas". They are discernible and distinguishable > (experiential) realities (under normal conditions, of course). I find myself unable to > *define* them and their difference, but I still *know* them and their > difference. Likewise, I cannot *define* the sensations of hardness and warmth, but I can > discern and distinguish them. [I'm not talking about the *names* of 'left' > and 'right' - we could call them "fizdak" and "birbak", and that would be just > as good!] > I think you could be birbak :-) Kind Regards Herman 49020 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok1 philofillet Hi Herman, and all > > - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door so can't > > be known. > > > > Is this what the consensus was? I am sure that I have previously read > that K Sujin said that bhavanga cittas objects can be known. > I was a bit confused on this point too. I remember we discussed this maybe six months ago or something. At that I point I think what Nina said was A Sujin said that we shouldn't say that they can never be known, the potential for us to become enlightened enough to know dhammas to that degree *is* there. For now, there is no knowing to that degree. It's a teaching that I always appreciate when I hear it coming up. To know our limits, to know what we *can* know, not what we want to know. Wanting to know more than we can know screws us up and brings in lobha galore. BTW, Herman, best wishes for your reduced reliance on the "rock" - be sure to let us know how it's going. And thanks Sarah for your detailed report. Were the talks recorded? (hint, hint) Phil 49021 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok1 egberdina Hi Phil, It's good to know that I wasn't making it up :-). On 21/08/05, Philip wrote: > > Hi Herman, and all > > > > > - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door > so can't > > > be known. > > > > > > > Is this what the consensus was? I am sure that I have previously > read > > that K Sujin said that bhavanga cittas objects can be known. > > > > I was a bit confused on this point too. I remember we discussed > this maybe six months ago or something. At that I point I think what > Nina said was A Sujin said that we shouldn't say that they can never > be known, the potential for us to become enlightened enough to know > dhammas to that degree *is* there. For now, there is no knowing to > that degree. It's a teaching that I always appreciate when I hear it > coming up. To know our limits, to know what we *can* know, not what > we want to know. Wanting to know more than we can know screws us up > and brings in lobha galore. That the theory about bhavanga cittas is there, suggests that somebody, somewhere has "known" it. The question for me is, was this an experiential knowing, or was it a knowing arrived at by reasoning. It has some parallels with theories about the subconscious. The thing is that were the subconscious to be known experientially, it wouldn't be subconscious. How does one differentiate between two cittas and know one to be bhavanga? So I 'm guessing that like theories about the subconscious, bhavanga cittas are a theoretical device, arrived at by reason, and necessary to fill in gaps in our understanding of how conditionality works. Knowing about bhavanga cittas is more like saying "Ah this is how it must be". > > BTW, Herman, best wishes for your reduced reliance on the "rock" - > be sure to let us know how it's going. Will do. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 49022 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok1 sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for all your information-packed accounts of the discussions in > Bangkok. > > I could ask a million questions, but I'll start with just one :-) > > > > - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door so > can't > > be known. > > > > Is this what the consensus was? I am sure that I have previously read > that K Sujin said that bhavanga cittas objects can be known. .... S: v.quickly as really on the run here - As I u'stand, the b.c objects can never be known (same as the object of patisandhi and cuti cittas for reason given), but for those with enough awareness (the Buddha, great disciples like Sariputta I assume, others???), the bhavanga cittas can be the object of awareness.....who knows, we can't say never for anyone with regard to these. This was one of those 2 sec discussions in which I was just trying to confirm sth I had said in Aus .... Metta, Sarah p.s Phil....recorded and will eventually be available and edited... Howard, thx for the feedback too... 49023 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. philofillet Hi Nina, and all Thanks for this series, Nina. I haven't been able to read it fully yet. >, when there is seeing, people believe that > they see a temple hall, persons and different things which seem to exist. This is what tells us how much ignorance there is. Always, always moha rising after visible object. Thus the Buddha spoke of the world burning with ignorance (and greed and hatred) through the eye etc... > Whereas when there is paññ?Eit realizes that what appears through the > eyesense are not people or different things but only visible object, a kind > of element which appears through the eyesense. When we close our eyes that > which was seen is no longer there; In the talks I was interested to hear (Sarah mentionned it) about the object that has fallen away still being a reality, as though that it's been photocopied or something. There is a special techinical word for it, an unclassifiable object or something. Still a reality, not a concept, though it has already fallen away. Do I have that right? Phil 49024 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:07pm Subject: The value of logic (was Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin.) egberdina Hi Phil and all, On 21/08/05, Philip wrote: > > Hi Nina, and all > > Thanks for this series, Nina. I haven't been able to read it fully > yet. > > >, when there is seeing, people believe that > > they see a temple hall, persons and different things which seem to > exist. > > This is what tells us how much ignorance there is. Always, always > moha rising after visible object. Thus the Buddha spoke of the world > burning with ignorance (and greed and hatred) through the eye etc... > > > Whereas when there is paññ?Eit realizes that what appears through > the > > eyesense are not people or different things but only visible > object, a kind > > of element which appears through the eyesense. When we close our > eyes that > > which was seen is no longer there; You gotta believe me, Phil, I'm not having a go at you. Honest. I'm just writing what came to mind, and it just happened to come to mind while I was reading your post. I think there is possibly a bit of duplicity going on. When the mind constructs a theory about seeing temple halls, person and the like, based on ongoing observations from different senses, and memories of previous sensings, it is called ignorance. Yet when the mind constructs a theory about bhavanga citta, cutti citta, patisandhi (sp?) cittas, based on thinking about many other thoughts, it is beyond question, and all we can do is wait till we have developed the same level of insight before commenting. Logical thinking is of great value, not because it can tell you how the world is, but because it can tell you how the world isn't. I feel quite comfortable with being ignorant ie taking sights and sounds to indicate the existence of a non-mental world, populated with non-mental beings and objects, conforming to predictable regularity, because there is nothing contradictory in that. I do not feel comfortable with theories that are beyond contradiction or falsification, because they can be the substance of the most blithe superstition. > > In the talks I was interested to hear (Sarah mentionned it) about > the object that has fallen away still being a reality, as though > that it's been photocopied or something. There is a special > techinical word for it, an unclassifiable object or something. > Still a reality, not a concept, though it has already fallen away. > Do I have that right? > > Phil > -- Kind Regards Herman 49025 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The chemical nature of desire upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Htoo & Larry) - In a message dated 8/20/05 6:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Htoo and (Larry), > Dear Herman, > > Actually I will welcome anyone who want to discuss Dhamma. If time > allow me to discuss I will be doing so. > > Pychiatric disorders are like magic. As we are not experts in such > matter it will be difficult to talk on these matters. But I have > met some people, at the time when I met them they seemed hopeless. > > Hopeless here mean they will be chronic patients. But to my surprise, > some of them were totally cured and they did not have any of features > of insane people. > > They might have received psychiatric treatment and received > medications. > But I did not think it was the answer of cure. > > Kamma do work. > I do not understand, at all, how teachings about kamma and anatta can both come under the one umbrella of Buddhism. I understand very well Larry's recent statement that where there is no self there is no kamma. And I understand that the Buddha was born into a world where there were very precise ideas about dhamma, citta and kamma. And the Buddha's message in that world was anatta, anatta, anatta. For me, a teaching about kamma is a teaching about conditionality in relation to a self. (Which means that a teaching about kusala kamma and akusala kamma is also a teaching about self.) Teachings about kamma negate teachings about anatta. Am I misunderstanding something? Kind Regards Herman ============================ Herman, as I understand it, as the Buddha used the term 'kamma', kamma is cetana, and it can be kusala, akusala, or kiriya ("functional"), and the last of these is undefiled by sense of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49026 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok1 upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/20/05 6:53:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > - bhavanga citta objects not experienced through any sense door so can't > be known. > Is this what the consensus was? I am sure that I have previously read that K Sujin said that bhavanga cittas objects can be known. ========================= Moreover, if they cannot be known, then how were they "known" by the composers of the ancient commentaries? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49027 From: connie Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:23pm Subject: re: Threads made by/on a spinning wheel nichiconn hey colette, i think it's not so much which kinds of physical sensations one prefers but having any inclination towards them at all. ppl talk about the accountants or average guy setting the standards and it's just a for instance, for this time frame, because tomorrow what we like is not the same, but there is a downward trend, i think, from mindfed, feeding on joy to believing our own s...tuff doesn't stink. peace, connie 49028 From: connie Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise nichiconn thank you very much, Tep. and the rest, of course! peace, connie 49029 From: connie Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:23pm Subject: fizdak & birbak. was l&r, er, e-cardBkk3 nichiconn say Howard, you've mentioned left and right before and i'm not so sure about them, but i'm glad they changed their mind about keeping me in kindergarten until i was. it's not just fizdak and birbak, tho. when you first open your eyes sometimes when you've been 'somewhere else' for a time, don't you have that disorientation, what's up/down, reclining/standing, etc when you have to (re)locate yourself with respect to the visual and other fields? left and right of what? that automatically is 2 points, but we have to triangulate, at least, to narrow down a point of interest. 3 points of visual orientation, how many for echolocation or whatever we sound that by. infinite space. infinite empty space. no coordinates. left and right are aftermarket products spun off different series of marks. do i make the least bit of sense? normal effervescents! i'm thinking of your locational rupas under normal conditions. was & aint are closer than l&r? just what passes for thinking at my kybd and i think any b&d-aks must be derivative & conceptual. they invented gravity so people on the other side of the world don't fall down into the sky. peace, connie 49030 From: bruce bogusz Date: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] me brucebogusz Hi everyone, Thank you for being so kind, but I think I am a different Bruce from the Bruce you may have in mind. But then again I am different from what I was yesterday and will probably be different tomorrow. Or at least I try to change in order to become a better person. I was raised a Catholic. Its funny how we label ourselves. Try to put the world in tiny little slots. I did find that being Catholic ultimately did not make me the person I wanted to be. That may be a copout. A way to not take responsibility for ones actions. I feel more comfortable concentrating on Buddhism. It seems to focus my attention in ways I haven't before. Bruce sarah abbott wrote: Hi Bruce, Just a quick welcome here. You're obviously comfortable with some of the terminology, so pls share anything about your background/interest if you care to and maybe, where you live too. [I'm thinking of Bruce in the DSG early days and his keen interest....(RobK and others will remember him well)]. 49031 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:45am Subject: The 7 Purifications ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Sweet Stages of Mental Purification! 1: Mental Purification by Morality. 2: Mental Purification of Mentality. 3: Mental Purification via View. 4: Mental Purification by overcoming Doubt. 5: Purification by knowledge & vision of what is Path & non-Path. 6: Purification by knowledge & vision of the Noble Way. 7: Purification by assured Knowledge & extended Vision. Sources: The moderate speech on the relay wagons MN24: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404506 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 49032 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object kenhowardau Hi Herman (Colette, Bruce), ------------------------- H: > Ken, it would help me a great deal if you could give me an example or two of an intrinsically desirable rupa, or some undesirable ones. -------------------------- Thanks for asking, Herman, I will do my best. But first, I would like to give an example of an intrinsically wholesome nama. Adosa (harmlessness) is an intrinsically wholesome nama. Being a paramattha dhamma it comes and goes in a ridiculously short period of time, so you might ask, "Where is the use in that sort of example?" But you and I have a fair understanding of harmlessness. On the odd occasion that we have experienced adosa, panna has not been there to know it as adosa - the conditioned nama - but, nonetheless, adosa has been experienced. So we know the meaning of harmlessness even though we can't pin it down to a precise point in time. We sometimes confuse it with other things, such as sentimentality, but we have a pretty good idea of what it is like. To answer your question, my example of an intrinsically desirable rupa is; 'desirable visible object.' Again, it sounds like a useless sort of example, but you and I know what it is like to see something desirable. Along with 'accountants and merchants'' - or 'the average joe in the street' - we know what it is like, even though none of us could confidently pin it down to a specific point in time. Corrections are welcome, but I think I am on the right track with this. :-) Ken H 49033 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:52am Subject: The value of logic (was Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin.) philofillet Hi Herman, and all > I think there is possibly a bit of duplicity going on. When the mind > constructs a theory about seeing temple halls, person and the like, > based on ongoing observations from different senses, and memories of > previous sensings, it is called ignorance. Yes, but this is ignorance in the Dhamma sense, not in the pejorative conventional sense. There is so much of this moha (or avijja) that it's not something we should fret about. It's been rising through us for countless lives and will continue to do so. It's almost like the air we breathe, I guess. Ever so gradually we can begin to see through it. But no need to resist it - resisting it will only add to it, as well as to the other unwholesome roots. I guess that's beyond dispute from a Buddhist mainstream point of view. (Orthodox?) > > Yet when the mind constructs a theory about bhavanga citta, cutti > citta, patisandhi (sp?) cittas, based on thinking about many other > thoughts, it is beyond question, and all we can do is wait till we > have developed the same level of insight before commenting. The mind doesn't construct it - it was enlightened by the Buddha, and only by the Buddha. We can't hope to have insight to the degree of the Buddha. So all this about all these cittas we will never experience (in this lifetime) - yes, until there is faith in the Buddha, belief that the Buddha did have insight to that degree and did decide (despite his disinclination) to teach about it, and until there is a kind of awe at this insight, and gratitude for it, well, I think it's natural to dispute it, and doubt it. Better that than to try by dint of misdirected mental energy to try to penetrate it in vain. So doubt and disbelieve until there is faith to take it as taught by the Buddha, and come to appreciate not as something to be known by oneself directly, but to be understood intellectually in a way that helps one to understand that all is conditioned, anatta, beyond control. It's very liberating in a conventional sense, really helps one to lay down mental burdens, I find. But until the day that faith comes, fair enough to doubt it. > > Logical thinking is of great value, not because it can tell you how > the world is, but because it can tell you how the world isn't. I feel > quite comfortable with being ignorant ie taking sights and sounds to > indicate the existence of a non-mental world, populated with > non-mental beings and objects, conforming to predictable regularity, > because there is nothing contradictory in that. I think there is an intuitive aspect to understanding Dhamma that goes beyond logic, but I haven't found too many aspects of Abhidhamma, for example, that are unlogical. The complex sequence of cittas that we read about and reflect on are beyond our direct knowing, but does that mean they are illogical? I imagine there are many points that can be shown to be illogical but maybe that's not how my mind works. I do know that there are aspects of the way the mind and the senses work physiologically that don't synch perfectly with Dhamma. But when I come across them I let them go because I don't think the purpose of Dhamma is to explain the way the mind and body works as an end in itself, but to explain they way they work for the purpose of liberation. Joop said something about this and used a word that I meant to look up and still haven't - something like soteriological? > > I do not feel comfortable with theories that are beyond contradiction > or falsification, because they can be the substance of the most blithe > superstition. Sure, I can understand this. I think you were a Christian preacher, weren't you? (maybe that was someone else) That could turn anyone off blind faith! But I have benefited from the Buddha's teaching in such very nice ways that I am willing to lay down my doubts and be devout. But I know what you mean. The doubts may crop up again. That's beyond my control, conditions, you know... My weekend at DSG is over so back off list until next weekend. You can have the last word. Phil 49034 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: The 7 Purifications ... !!! htootintnaing Dear Bhante Samahita, Thank you very much for your contribution to JourneyToNibbana. Below is just my extension of your post. If there is something needed to discuss, please join in. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: To moderators. Apology for the long message. But as interruption may lose essential things the message has to be very long. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Friends: The Seven Sweet Stages of Mental Purification! 1: Mental Purification by Morality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Morality is following the good conduct of practice. Someone may be speaking. He may be doing something. These two actions have to be morally right. When morally right, that conduct of practice become pure. This is 'MENTAL PURIFICATION BY MORALITY'. This is 'siila-visuddhi' in Pali. Siila is morality. Visuddhi is purification. So siila-visuddhi is 'morality-purification'. Because of pure morality the mentality becomes pure. All the conduct or actions ( speaking, behaving or acting ) have a source from mentality. When mentality is pure thenall these actions become pure. So it is'mental purification by morality. Morality is maintained by 1. following the defined codes of conduct in society 2. guarding at 6 doors not to do 'bad things' 3. guarding self not to do 'loose worldly things' 4. behaving in the right way using anything on this earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2: Mental Purification of Mentality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mentality is purified by mentality itself and no other outside agent can help this matter. Mentality is keep pure by 1. withholding lust and lustling desire 2. withholding mental aversion and keep undisturbed 3. keeping mind straight and alert 4. keeping mind stabilized not to be agitated, upset, & worrying 5. keeping mind free of doubt and suspicion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3: Mental Purification via View. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mentality becomes pure if view becomes right. For view becomes right it should be checked with 1. what that have been experienced is like 2. what it is accomplishing or performingor doing or functioning 3. what they manifest so that viwers know what they are 4. what the immediate causes of them are ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4: Mental Purification by overcoming Doubt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mentality becomes pure by overcoming doubt. How can we overcome doubt? What are the areas that doubt is directed? There are 1) 5 suspicions in the past existance, 2) 5 suspicions for the future 3) 6 suspicions for the present. 4) 8 other suspicions. Suspicions may mean illusion, dubious, doubtful, disbelief or their related words. We may think 1. whether he existed as living beings in the past, 2. whether he had been those beings, 3. what types of social classes he had been, 4. what figures, forms, shapes he had in those lives, 5. whether he had been a class and shifted to another class and so on. These are for the matter of the past. We may also think 1. whether he will exist in the future, 2. whether he will have been another being in the future, 3. what types of social classes he will be in the future, 4. what figures, forms, shapes he will have in the future, 5. whether he will be in a social class and will shift to other social classes in the future. These are for the matter of the future. He may as well think 1. whether he exists , 2. as if it will not him at the moment , 3. who he is among different social classes, 4. in what figure, form, shape he is , 5. from which life the Satta that 'he assumes is him' comes, 6. to which life he will go next. These are for the matter of the present. He may think illusionary believes in 1. The Buddha 2. The Dhamma 3. The Sangha 4. The practice ( Vipassana or Mahasatipatthana ) 5. the past 6. the future 7. both the past and future and 8. Dependent Origination (Paticcasammuppada). If we well overcome these matters, mentality is said to be pure. And this is 'MENTAL PRIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT'. It has been vastly, enormously and extremely long to attain this stage of purification. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5: Purification by knowledge & vision of what is Path & non-Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: After overcoming doubt and mentality needs more stragetgies to keep mentality pure by knowledge & vision of what is Path & what is not Path. When mentation becomes pure by overcoming doubt and at this stage, the meditators feel very well and they may think that all they are doing become meaningful. In some practitioners, they may notice they are radiating and become luminous. Flashes of light are coming out from their body. They have good-looking facial expressions. They seem to be emitting different light from their body. This is called 'obaasa' or 'body-radiation'. They may feel very cheerful with their practice and practising will never exhaust them. They feel happy and rejoiced with their practice and are content with what they have experienced so far. This cheerfulness is called 'piti' or 'joy'. More than 'piti' or joy that they feel is called passaddhi or tranquility. They all are both physically and mentally feeling well and they ( both piti or joy and passaddhi or tranquility) extremely calm the practitioners down. There seems to be extinguished all their firing at physical and mental things. At this stage, they fully believe in The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha and the practice as they are experiencing the things that The Buddha preached. This extreme believing is known as 'saddha' or 'non-withdrawing belief or faith'. As the experience they gained is quite different from other feelings, they have full energy to do with Dhamma whatever it may be. They will continue to try practising Vipassana. This extreme effort is called 'viiriya' or 'effort' which excels all other types of viiriya or 'effort' that is present in 'any trying'. As these things happen to them, they feel well and they are free from all sorts of dukkha or sufferings. So they are in a state of extraordinary wellbeing called 'sukha' or 'easeness'. At that time, the practitioners may think that he is in the state called nibbana, in which case actually is still not. Moreover, at this time, their panna or wisdom is well working and it penetrates all things that they experience. All Dhamma become very meaningful and they can recognize every event that happens in and around their mind and body. The practitioner may think his wisdom is well working. That panna has penetrative power. It can go deeply analytically. The practitioner may possibly think he has got the necessary panna. In real, this sort of panna, even though it excels all other panna apart from supramundane wisdom or 'lokuttara panna', is just at the foot of extremely high mountain. It still is not path-wisdom or magga panna. At this stage, their mindfulness is also well working. It knows every event and happening. This 'sati' or mindfulness, unlike sati of other consciousness or cittas, is extremely cautious and all events are not missed and they are well recognised by mindor citta. At that particular time the practitioner will think he has a good sati that he can note moment to moment happening. This still is not nibbana. All Dhamma are working on their own and the practitioner notices that these happen in real sense, so there is nothing to do with these and he will just watch events and he is well in the state of a balance called wellformed balance or equanimity or 'upekkha'. This ipekkha is well working like those upekkha in cases of rupa jhana (material absorption) and arupa jhana (non-material absorption). Mental state at that time is so calm and well balanced. But this still is not nibbana. At this stage he may be too fond of the practice,his achievement that has been acquired so far. And he may even attach to that. This is very subtle thing and it is referred to as 'subtle craving' or 'nikanti' tanha which is a form of lobha or attachment working as latent tendency or anusaya. This is subtle thing, supple thing and quite difficult to see or accept its presence. If this is not recognized, the progress will be halted. This is not the right way to nibbana. This stage is very difficult to overcome. A good teacher or coach is inevitably needed. The practitioner also has to be honest and sincere otherwise he will not progress and achieve the final goal, which has not still been attained. Here is the main point why many never attain anything related to path-knowledge. It is sincerity that works. Do not lie to teachers. It is crucial to have good teachers or a good teacher. It is also very important that teachers do not misguide students. Both parties need to be sincere. Otherwise they both destroy one of The Buddha's Sasana called 'Pa.tivedha' or 'realization'. When one admits that he realizes Dhamma while he actually does not it is insincerity. When teachers do not really know what their students are seeing orrealizing and confirm them to have realized, this is also insincereity. When one is insincere, he destroys The Buddha's Sasana or teachings. When another party (student or teacher) is insincere, then that party is destroying The Buddha's Sasana or teachings. When both parties lie and are insincere they both are destroying The Buddha's Sasana or teachings. Examples of lying are 'when there is no jhaana and admit to have jhaana is lying. When there is no magga and admit to experience magga is lying. By the same token, when students do not have any jhaana and the teacher confirms that they have jhaana is lying. When students do not experience any magga but the teacher confirms that they have experienced magga is lying. Danger lies in both parties of 'students and teachers'. Without a good teacher, one may think that he has found nibbana when experiencing above 10 features of 1. obaasa or 'body radiation' 2. piiti or 'joy' 3. passaddhi or 'tranquility' 4. saddhaa or 'solid faith' 5. viiriya or 'effort; 6. sukha or 'easeness' 7. naana or 'wisdom' 8. sati or'mindfulness' 9. upekkhaa or 'equanimity' 10.nikanti tanhaa or 'subtle craving' He may think that he is experiencing nibbana. Actually he starts to deviate from the right path. If he can (can) recognize that these things are not nibbana and are not his final goal, he will continue to practice with eightfold Path or 'atthangika maggangha'. If he understands and realises what is Pathand what is not Path (above 10 features) and if he overcomes this stage, then he is in the stage called 'PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS PATH AND WHAT IS NOT PATH' or 'magga-amagga-nana-dassana-visuddhi' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6: Purification by knowledge & vision of the Noble Way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mentality is further pured by 'PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE NOBLE WAY'. If the practitioner thoroughly realizes which is the right path and which is not, he is said to be in the state of magga-amagga- nana-dassana-visuddhi. When he reaches this stage he will have a good energy to do the practice and he will find himself all the following things on the way to magga-citta ( just seeing nibbana ). As he continues to maintain the practice of mahasatipatthana at this stage he will definitely realize that sankhara dhamma or conditioned dhamma(five aggregates or five khandhas) are subjected to anicca (impermanence) or dukkha(unsatisfactoriness) or anatta (selflessness) and he will obtain a naana or knowledge called sammasana naana which views on sankhata dhamma as anicca or dukkha or anatta. 'This naana' views like this as long as the practitioner is conscious. This naaana should be sustained and maintained not to waer out. The speed of aquisition of this naana is subjected to paaramii or perfectionsor 'accumulationsof necessary things' and it may take for a long time or may occur in a matter of minute like Sariputta and Moggallana. With diligent practice the practitioner will notice that Dhamma are happening all the time; they arise and then fall away. He will clearly see these phenomena with his mind-eye with clear distinction. If he practiced with the method aanaapaanassati or breathing meditation, he would find that the air starts to strike the lip, it continues to touch for a while and then it cease to be in touch while it is moving to and fro. He will notice the event from the start to the end. If he realizes these phenomena, he is said to have the naana called udayabbaya naana or 'knowledge of 2-events that is arising and falling away'. He will continue to do his practice as he clearly finds the real Dhamma. With practice he will start to recognize that everything is falling away. He definitely sees this phenomenon at every moment. Anicca is definitely seen then as everything is falling away and impermanent. If he sees this he is said to have bhanga naana or'knowledge of passing away'. As everything dies out, he becomes to feel frightened. This is figurative speech and this does not mean 'the meditators have aversiob and aversive reactions to what he is experiencing to naama and ruupa. He sees with his own mind-eye that everything is impermanent and they die out at every moment and he also contemplates that he himself will die out sooner or later. So it is natural for every practitioner to feel like this at this stage. But there may be some variation between each satta orbeing as their paaramis-s or perfections are not the same. At this stage the practitioner is said to have a naana called bhaya nana or'knowledge of fear'. As he sees that everything is falling away, he feel that what he sees are all just to be blamed and they do not worth to happen to him. All that arise are dukkha or 'unsatisfactoriness' and he realizes like this. If he sees the Dhamma like this, he is said to have a naana called aadhinava naana or 'knowledge of danger or disadvantages' or 'knowledge of misery'. He will then continue practising and on this path he will next notice that he himself gets bored with these Dhamma as they are falling away all the time and they are impermanent and they are not to be attached. The boredom that happens to him at this stage is due to the naana called nibbhida naana or 'knowledge of non-interest or boredom' or 'knowledge of disgust'. After a long practice, he strongly feels that he is very willing to escape from these impermanent things. He also contemplates these as they do not worth to be dealt with. He continues practising with this view. At this stage, he is said to have a naana called muncitukamyata nana or 'knowledge of escape' or 'knowledge of desire for deliverance'. When he has the strong will to escape from these impermanent things, he then tries his practice much more energetically and skilfully than ever before. He re-orientates to the view that sees all Dhamma as anicca or dukkha or anatta. This re-orientation and trying to see real Dhamma in order to escape from them is caused by a naana called patisankha naana or 'knowledge of reflection or judgement' or 'knowledge of re-observation'. With continuous practice he has a good momentum in practising Mahasatipatthana and he has now already passed eight naanas of ten vipassana naanas. He steadily moves on the path and he will find that extremeness does not add any good contribution to his practice. Then he walks on the middle way and he views all the Dhamma with equanimity or upekkha. At this stage, he owns sankharupekkha naana or knowledge of equanimity about formations. After above nine vipassana naanas, there will arise a naana called anuloma naana or 'knowledge of adaptation'. Just before magga citta or path-consciousness is a citta called gottrabhu. Gottrabhu or lineage-changing-consciousness is a naana which is the last or final puthujana citta and after that magga citta arises and the particular satta or being who is being having magga citta will become non- puthujana as his or her lineage has changed ( ariya-hood will depend on the type of magga citta ). Anuloma naana adjusts itself to be appropriately linked with incoming cittas along with 37 Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma while it exists between sankharupekkha naana and gottrabhu naana. When the practitioner has passed above ten vipassana naanas 1. sammasana 2. udayabbaya 3. bhanga 4. bhaya 5. aadhinava 6. nibbhida 7. muncitukamyata 8. patisankha 9. sankharupekkha 10. anuloma, he is said to be at the stage of patipada-nanadassana- visuddhi or 'PURIFICATUION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE NOBLE WAY'. At this stage, he is very close to the higher pannaa or higher wisdom and in a matter of moment he is going to see the real Dhamma nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7: Purification by assured Knowledge & extended Vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the final stage of purification process. Mentality is assured by knowledge and extended vision with the aid of magga naana or path knowledge. When the practitioner reaches the stage of patipada-naana-dassana- visuddhi, he is very close to higher pannaa or wisdom. When anuloma- naana arises it is inevitable to experience next naanas successively. But this stage of purification is hard to overcome. What happen in this stage? In some meditation centres, strange things are being experienced during courses of meditation especially when practitioners arrive above stages. Some may weep, be tearing, cry while others may laugh out loud. Some clap their palms. Some shout and some become depressed. Even suicide may occur, which may be noble suicide or ignoble suicide. When the practitioner sees dhammas with sammasana nana, he feels confident that he now knows well about Dhamma as they are and he may think that 'My begone relatives and many others who passed away did not have a chance to experience the Dhamma of this kind which is real and true one'. And he feels so sorry that he cannot help crying out, weeping, pouring down tear a lot. When the practitioner sees dhammas with Bhanga naana, he realises that all Dhamma are impermanent. Even then people happen to attach all these things and they do have maana or conceit, lobha or attchment with greediness, dosa or aversion or hatred, issa or enviness, macchariya or stinginess, tanha or craving and many others. As he thinks like this, he feels they are behaving like fools and he becomes amused and laughs out loud 'What fools ther are!! Ha ha ha ha'. Some practitioners cast a wise eye on Dhamma and deeply understand Dhamma through stated naanas. So they become to feel this is fact, that is fact, this is right and that is wrong and so on. They will have a good insight into Dhamma and as they know well these Dhamma through stated naanas, they become to make clapping as a sign of applausing. At a stage when the practitioner begins to get bored and he may assume that the world is not worthy enough to live in. He may also feel that it is no use to live any longer as things are wearing away, falling away and they die out every moment. When this happens to him, he may begin to consider killing himself to end suffering life. As patipada-naana-dassana-visuddhi has many hard things like above to overcome, the practitioner needs to be aware of all these things in advance. If highway-heavy-vehicle drivers have prior knowledge of the road conditions, they may overcome the difficulties as they have time to prepare to deal with incoming hassels and hazzards even though they have not experienced that road conditions. Still,there is an opposing view that prior knowledge will cause delay in achieving these naanas and sometimes there might blockage of the way. My view is that 'this is wrong'. What is crucial in this matter is sincerity as I described above. What has not been achieved is not of own achievement and this needs not to admit when not. Whatever view the practitioner holds, what he needs to do is continuous and uninterrupted effort and thorough and tight mindfulness be put on the practice he is exercising with clear understanding and full knowledge and awareness. If he well has a good sati (mindfulness), then he might overcome all the difficulties that may arise during the course of this way. After the purification of patipada-naana-dassana-visuddhi, next comes naana-dassana-visuddhi or 'PURIFICATION BY ASSURED KNOWLEDGE AND EXTENDED VISION. This is the highest of all seven visuddhi- magga or PATH OF PURIFICATION. It is hard to see without detail knowledge of previous stages. It will be more favourable to learn how the mind works that is what citta and cetasikas work hand in hand and with ruupas. Sometime ago certain people thought that these fine details were not for them and they would just go for practical effort like practical meditation rather than 'reading these matters'. And they would say 'throw away all texts and books and do not touch themfor a year while practical meditation should be in practice'. If there is 'will' and 'effort' thereis no reason not to understand these matters. When the practitioner completes the stage patipada-naana-dassana- visuddhi, it is not too far for him to reach the top level naana. What he needs is continuous practice of vipassana whatever stage he may arrive at. While he is fulfilling siila-visuddhi, he must practise vipassana at the same time. Citta-visuddhi must also come along with vipassana. Ditthi-visuddhi arises from vipassana practice and kankhavitarana-visuddhi, magga-amagga-naana-dassana-visuddhi and patipada-naana-dassana-visuddhi all should arise during the practice of vipassana. These six visuddhi-s are not separate entities but that should come along with vipassana. The practitioner will realize these visuddhi through vipassana practice. So what is crucial at the present stage is to continue uninterrupted practice with good effort and mindfulness. Near this visuddhi, all the 37 Bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas work properly and evidently on their own. So mindfulness and effort become samma-sati and samma-vaayaama. When each part works well, the practitioner is going to see real Dhamm. That is nibbana by his mind-eye. He is now practising and realising step by step. He sees the primary object and knows it and he also knows that he knows the primary object. He is now running mahakusala-javana-cittas. This is followed by bhavanga-cittas or life- continuing consciousness (one of 4 naana-samyutta mahaavipaka cittas ). After unknown duration of that series of bhavanga cittas, manodvara- Avijjana citta senses the aarammana of naama or ruupa with nnicca or dukkha or anatta. Next comes parikamma-vipassana citta (preparatory consciousness or preliminary consciousness). Next is ipacara- vipassana citta ( forerunner or proximity consciousness ) followed by anuloma-vipassana-naana (adaptation consciousness)which is adjusting naana. After that gottrabhu-naana citta or lineage-changing consciousness arises while the practitioner looks straight into the arammana nibbana doing 4 jobs, leaving behind puthujana-hood and reaches at next citta which is the highest visuddhi called naana- dassana-Visuddhi or 'PURIFICATIONBY ASSURED KNOWLEDGE AND EXTENDED VISION'. Naana-dassana-visuddhi is magga citta. It lasts for a moment and falls away immediately and followed by 2 or 3 phala cittas or fruition- consciousness and then bhavanga cittas follow. If this is for the first time it is called sotapatti-magga citta. This magga citta eradicates ditthi or wrong view and vicikiccha or doubt. If the practitioner continues long enough, he will next pass through essentially the same series but more maturely and experience sakadaagaami-magga citta. If he experiences anaagaami-magga citta, then dosa or hatred and kaama raaga or sexual desire will be eradicated and he will no more feel any angry, fury, anxiousness, depression and so on. Moreover, he will never have sex any more. Next time he passes the gate, he will totally change his life into an arahat. This is the way that we all should be following. Arahatship is like obtaining a ticket to nibbana. At the door of nibbana this ticket will be asked. Just before cuti citta of arahats there is the final series of javana. This series has to be all kiriyaa-javana-cittas. To arise these kiriya cittas is required to become arahats first. May you all be free from suffering and attain what you all have been looking for. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 49035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 17-08-2005 16:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Well, I would hardly presume to give you "pointers"! ----- N: Yes, of course you do. If I would mention all the people of dsg who give me pointers, there is a long list. That is the valuable thing of feedback. Do continue giving pointers. I read your points to Lodewijk and he reacted spontaneously as follows: ------- H: But I do have an > additional point or two to make. I do not, it happens, believe in the ultimate > reality of beings. I believe that all that ever arises are sights, sounds etc. > However, when relations among them are taken into consideration, the notion of > beings isn't ill founded, and suffering is suffering even though it is > impersonal (anatta) in actuality. ----- Lodewijk: hear, hear! Fantastic. -------- H: There does seem to be a bit of "mystery" pertaining to the duality of sammuti (sp?) and paramattha, and I think a greater understanding of the intimate relationship between the two is of great importance. > --------------------------------- L: Excellent, so well formulated. This is just the way I was always thinking, but I could not formulate it in words. Also for me it is like a mystery. I do not understand why Howard never went to Bangkok. ------ N: This is meant as an encouragement. He thinks you eminently expressed a difficult point. ------- quote: I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to > purer siila. > ------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is a *very* important matter to discuss!! > ==================== N: Lodewijk and I discussed it and I jotted down a few points. I said to Lodewijk that you always pay attention to relations and he said that he quite agrees. He said: Howard can help with the necessary consistency in the way of expressing Dhamma. An example was: we hear: there is no Lodewijk, no Nina. But, we have to place this in the right context and take great care of the way how we explain this. As to siila discussions, I need feedback, I cannot discuss all by myself. Phil added a point already. I will come back to this, but I am behind in my mails. Nina. 49036 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Hi Phil, op 21-08-2005 01:25 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Thanks for this series, Nina. I haven't been able to read it fully > yet. ----- N: It is on Rob K's web, Vipassana. Take care: the footnotes are with numbers in between the text. Also in between the text are reference numbers and titles of the chapters, but you can erase. ------- Ph: In the talks I was interested to hear (Sarah mentionned it) about > the object that has fallen away still being a reality, as though > that it's been photocopied or something. There is a special > techinical word for it, an unclassifiable object or something. > Still a reality, not a concept, though it has already fallen away. > Do I have that right? ------ N: yes. past rupa will be in the Vis. series on khandhas also. Past rupa is still rupa, not a concept. It has been, how could it change into a concept? It is called not so classifiable, navatthabbamaarama.na. Na: not; vatthabbam: should be mentioned or spoken of. For instance, the rupa such as visible object is experienced through the eye-door by an eye-door process of cittas. Then, when it has just fallen away it is experienced by mind-door process cittas. Its characteristic appears. Actually it has fallen away, but it is not a concept. Nina. 49037 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beauty and siila. nilovg Hi Howard, you quote me about indifferent feeling, I shall explain somewhat more. Larry quoted in the beginning the whole text about desirable and undesirable object and especially the end was clear: the experience that is vipaakacitta, result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, is either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Then Rob K explained some more about this. > ============================ Howard: I am perplexed, Robert. In "Cetasikas", Nina writes "Indifferent feeling > accompanies vipakacittas such as seeing or hearing." And *my* experience > confirms that. ------ N: Seeing is vipaakacitta, it experiences either a pleasant object or an unpleasant object. This is only one short moment and seeing just sees. It does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant since its only function is seeing. You are right, it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. This feeling is vipaaka, and there is no neutral vipaaka. Vipaaka is always either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka, also the feeling that is part of it. Thus, vipaakacitta and the accompanying feeling are not neutral vipaaka, but nevertheless the accompanying feeling is in the case of the sense-cognitions neutral or indifferent feeling. If this is not clear, please mention it. As Rob and others explained, later on cittas arise that know more about the object and react towards it, and then different feelings arise. How do we think? With kusala citta or with akusala citta and these are accompanied by different feelings, by pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling or unpleasant feeling. Larry mentioned investigating-consciousness, a short moment of vipaakacitta that may, in some cases, when the object is extraordinary pleasant, be accompanied by pleasant feeling. This would not happen often, who sees the sight of a Buddha? That feeling is vipaaka, arising because of conditions. We cannot pinpoint it. It does not lead to emancipation to try to find out whether an object is desirable or undesirable. Learning about it teaches us about kamma-condition. I think that is enough. It is very meaningful that there are four jaatis or classes of cittas: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya (inoperative). Vipaaka is only one class, bot kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka are included. It is not our first task to find out about an object being desirable or undesirable. The test is: does it lead to detachment? This makes me think of your remark about left and right. You find there is some kind of sensing this, not thinking. -------- H:< I strongly suspect, however, that left and right experienced in one's body are "locational rupas". They are discernible and distinguishable (experiential) realities (under normal conditions, of course). I find myself unable to *define* them and their difference, but I still *know* them and their difference.> ------- N: Yes, even without words, but it is due to saññaa, a lifelong routine doing things with your right hand (or left if you are lefthanded). There are no other rupas than those listed under rupakkhandha. Left and right are not among the 28 rupas of rupakkhandha. You notice your whole hand or arm, being left or right, but does this lead to detachment from the idea of self? It does not help to see rupa as impermanent. In the field of science it can be explained as having to do with brain, with nerves, etc. I like to see relationships between conventional reality and absolute reality, but only if and when it leads to detachment. I do not see mixing science and rupakkhandha as helpful, it was not the Buddha's intention to teach science. In the satipatthanasutta we find both conventional reality and absolute reality in a way which is most helpful. We read about corpses. We may be forgetful of realities, but the idea of corpses can bring us back to reality. I heard this morning:< As we are sitting here, what is left of the body in hundred years? Look at sinews and skin: there are also bones> Indeed we are like corpses even now. We can see bones when looking at our hands. Our life becomes shorter and shorter each day. The teachings speak of birth, old age, sickness and death, and we can learn to see momentary death. What is seen is only rupa that falls away immediately, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, that is mometray death. Is it not so that in this way we can gradually become less taken in by what is pleasant? This must influence siila through body, speech and mind. We cannot expect a radical change of character, but slowly, slowly satipatthana conditions siila. Nina. 49038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karmic Resultants: Just Cause & Effect, Ven. Samahita . nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Samahita, I appreciate this tranlation by U Kyaw Khine. A rare book, not so well known. Sarah also quoted from it. With respect, Nina. op 18-08-2005 09:32 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu.samahita@...: > Source: The 1st canonical Abhidhamma Book: Dhammasanghani: pp 991-993 > The Classification of States. The Enumeration of Ultimate Realities. > Tr. by U Kyaw Khine. 1999. Sri Satguru Publications. Delhi. 49039 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' or abhidhamma says there are 10 fetters. They are 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) In the first list of fetters there is uddhacca as samyojana or fetter. But in the second list there is no uddhacca in the list. But in abhidhamma list of fetter 2 extra fetters are issa or jealousy and macchariya or stinginess. Surely 'stinginess' makes rebirth in lower realm. This is evident in sutta. One of bhikkhus in The Buddha time died with 'stinginess on his beautiful yellow robe'. He was reborn as an insect attached to that robe. Likewise 'issa' or 'jealousy' does make rebirth in lower realm. In contrast, uddhacca is included in sutta list of fetter while abhidhamma list of fetter does not include uddhacca as a samyojana or fetter. When this is examined there is a fact that all sotapams have not radicated uddhacca. Uddhacca is eradicated only by arahatta magga naana or eradicating path-knowledge. But sotapams are never reborn in any lower realms. Anyway both lists include all akusala dhamma. When both lists are compiled these are basic dhamma of these 2 sets of samyojana or fetters. 1. lobha(kaamaraaga, ruuparaaga, aruuparaaga// kaamaraaga, bhavaraaga) 2. dosa (patigha) 3. maana (maana) 4. ditthi (ditthi, silabbataparaamaasa) 5. vicikicchaa (vicikicchaa) 6. uddhacca (uddhacca) 7. issaa (issaa) 8. macchariya (macchariya) 9. moha (avijjaa) These 9 cetasika dhammas behave as fetters or samyojana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49040 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: The chemical nature of desire htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Htoo and (Larry), > > > > Dear Herman, > > > > Actually I will welcome anyone who want to discuss Dhamma. If time > > allow me to discuss I will be doing so. > > > > Pychiatric disorders are like magic. As we are not experts in such > > matter it will be difficult to talk on these matters. But I have > > met some people, at the time when I met them they seemed hopeless. > > > > Hopeless here mean they will be chronic patients. But to my surprise, > > some of them were totally cured and they did not have any of features > > of insane people. > > > > They might have received psychiatric treatment and received > > medications. > > But I did not think it was the answer of cure. > > > > Kamma do work. > I do not understand, at all, how teachings about kamma and anatta can > both come under the one umbrella of Buddhism. I understand very well > Larry's recent statement that where there is no self there is no > kamma. And I understand that the Buddha was born into a world where > there were very precise ideas about dhamma, citta and kamma. And the > Buddha's message in that world was anatta, anatta, anatta. > For me, a teaching about kamma is a teaching about conditionality in > relation to a self. (Which means that a teaching about kusala kamma > and akusala kamma is also a teaching about self.) Teachings about > kamma negate teachings about anatta. > Am I misunderstanding something? > Kind Regards > Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, What you referred to as teaching about self is not teachinf about atta. The Buddha never taught 'atta'. Teaching regarding individual is not teaching of 'atta'. If you look things with tainted glasses all the views will be tainted. Why incompatible between 'anatta' and 'kamma'? With respect, Htoo Naing 49041 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:20am Subject: Satipatthaana (15) new version htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body c) 09 Buddha's Attributes d) 30 feeling-contemplations e) 09 Buddha's Attributes f) 51 consciousness-contemplations There are 51 contemplations on consciousness (cittaanupassanaa). When doing contemplation on consciousness one has to be skilful in recognition of various states of mind. Without this skill it is hard to practise these contemplations. There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. this is consciousness with lust.(saraga citta) 2. this is consciousness without lust.(vitaraga citta) 3. this is consciousness with aversion.(sadosa citta) 4. this is consciousness without aversion.(vitadosa citta) 5. this is consciousness with ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. this is consciousness without ignorance.(vitamoha citta) 7. this is consciousness with sloth & torpor.(sankhitta citta) 8. this isconsciousness with upset.(vikkhitta) 9. this is consciousness in absorption.(mahaggata citta) 10.this is consciousness not in absorption.(amahaggata citta) 11.this is consciousness with inferior implication.(sa-uttara citta) 12.this is consciousness with superior implication.(anuttara citta) 13.this is concentrated consciousness.(samahita citta) 14.this is non-concentrated consciousness.(asamahita citta) 15.this is liberated consciousness.(vimutta citta) 16.this is non-liberated consciousness.(avimutta citta) These 16 states of mind have to be first recognised before cittanupassana or contemplation on consciousness can be done properly. One perceives again and again that 'this citta arises in me'. At a time he thinks that other individuals will have been in one of these 16 cittas. At another time he perceives that there are cittas arise in him and others. 16 cittas or 16 contemplations is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another set of 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally. So there are 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 contemplations. At a time, the origination of these 16 cittas is perceived. At another time the dissolution of these 16 cittas is perceived. And sometimes both origination and dissolution of these cittas is perceived. So there are 3 extra contemplations on consciousness. 48 + 3 = 51 contemplations on various consciousness or states of mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49042 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 496 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. There are 10 fetters described in suttas and there are another set of 10 fetters described in abhidhamma. When both lists are compiled these are basic dhamma of these 2 sets of samyojana or fetters. They are 1. lobha(kaamaraaga, ruuparaaga, aruuparaaga// kaamaraaga, bhavaraaga) 2. dosa (patigha) 3. maana (maana) 4. ditthi (ditthi, silabbataparaamaasa) 5. vicikicchaa (vicikicchaa) 6. uddhacca (uddhacca) 7. issaa (issaa) 8. macchariya (macchariya) 9. moha (avijjaa) Lobha comes in many different ways. This means that lobha is viewed with different description. Lobha is included in all 9 stocks of akusala dhamma. Lobha is aasava or canker or intoxicant. Lobha is ogha or flood. Lobha is yoga or yoke. Lobha is gantha or knot. Lobha is upaadaana or grasping or clinging. Lobha is nivarana or hindrance or obstruction. Lobha is kilesa or defilement. Lobha is anusaya or tendency. And lobha is samyojana or fetter. In this way lobha comes in many different forms. In essence lobha is a cetasika. It arises with citta and it influences how citta is like. This means that when there is lobha cetasika that arises with a citta then that citta is called lobha citta. Depending on the implication and situation lobha has been named with many. Likewise other akusala cetasikas appears in many forms. But the above 9 dhamma are named as fetter because they tie, entangle, bind 'the individual, where they arise' to rebirth in 3 different worlds of sensuous sphere, fine material sphere, non-material sphere. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49043 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:34am Subject: Satipatthaana (16) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A r) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body c) 09 Buddha's Attributes d) 30 feeling-contemplations e) 09 Buddha's Attributes f) 51 consciousness-contemplations There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. this is consciousness with lust.(saraga citta) 2. this is consciousness without lust.(vitaraga citta) 3. this is consciousness with aversion.(sadosa citta) 4. this is consciousness without aversion.(vitadosa citta) 5. this is consciousness with ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. this is consciousness without ignorance.(vitamoha citta) 7. this is consciousness with sloth & torpor.(sankhitta citta) 8. this isconsciousness with upset.(vikkhitta) 9. this is consciousness in absorption.(mahaggata citta) 10.this is consciousness not in absorption.(amahaggata citta) 11.this is consciousness with inferior implication.(sa-uttara citta) 12.this is consciousness with superior implication.(anuttara citta) 13.this is concentrated consciousness.(samahita citta) 14.this is non-concentrated consciousness.(asamahita citta) 15.this is liberated consciousness.(vimutta citta) 16.this is non-liberated consciousness.(avimutta citta) 16 contemplations on own consciousness, on others, on both altogether there are 48 contemplations. Contemplations on origination, dissolution, both origination & dissolution add 3 contemplations to 48 and makes 51 consciousness-contemplations. g) 009 Buddha-Attributes h) 108 dhamma-contemplations h) 108 dhamma-contemplations 1. 25 hindrance-contemplations 2. 15 aggregate-contemplations 3. 36 sense-base-contemplations 4. 28 enlightenment-factor-contemplations 5. 04 Noble-Truth-contemplations ----- ++108 dhamma-contemplations 1. 25 hindrance-contemplations Here it is required to understand what hindrances are. 5 contemplations on eachof 5 hindrances make 25 hindrance- contemplations. 5 hindrances 1. kaamacchanda-niivarana or 'thoughts of lust' 2. byaapaada-niivarana or 'thoughts of aversion' 3. thina-middha-niivarana or 'thoughts with sloth & torpor' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca-niivarana or 'thoughts of wandering & worrying' 5. vicikicchaa-niivarana or 'thoughts of suspicion' 5 contemplations 1. there is this hindrance arises 2. there does not exist this hindrance 3. this hindrance arises because of inappropriate attention 4. this hindrance passes away because of wise attention 5. this hindrance will never arise again because of this path- knowledge. 2. 15 aggregate-contemplations Here, itis important to understand what khandhas are There are 5 aggregates or 5 khandhas and there are 3 contemplations on each of there 5 khandhas. So there are 15 contemplations on khandhas or aggregates. 5 khandhas 1. aggregate of materials (ruupa-kkhandhaa) 2. aggregate of feeling (vedana-kkhandhaa) 3. aggregate of perception(sanna-kkhandhaa) 4. aggregate of formation (sankhaara-kkhandhaa) 5. aggregate of consciousness(vinnaana-kkhandhaa) 3 contemplations on khandhas 1. this is this khandhaa 2. this is origination of that khandhaa 3. this is dissolution of that khandhaa 3. 36 sense-base-contemplations Here it is very important to understand what sense-bases are. There are 6 pairs of ayatanas and there are 6 contemplations on each pair. So there are 36 sense-base-contemplation. 6 pairs of sense-base of ayatana 1. cakkhaayatana(eye-sense-base)& ruupaayatana (form-sense-base) 2. sotaayatana(ear-sense-base) & saddhaayatana (sound-sense-base) 3. ghaanaayatana(nose-sense-base)& gandhaayatana(smell-sense-base) 4. jivhaayatana(tongue-sense-base)& rasaayatana(taste-sense-base) 5. kaayaayatana(body-sense-base)& photthabbaayatana(touch-sense-base) 6. manaayatana (mind-sense-base)&dhammaayatana(mind-object-sense-base) 6 contemplations on these 6 sense-bases pairs are 1. this is cakkhaayatana (the first in each pair) 2. this is ruupaayatana (the second in each pair) 3. these are fetters (samyojanas) arise from this pair 4. this arising of unarisen fetter is due to inappropriate attention 5. this dissolution of fetter is due to wise attention 6. this fetter is gone forever because of this path-knowledge 4. 28 enlightenment-factor-contemplations Here, it is crucial to understand what enlightenment factors are. There are 7 enlightenment factors and there are 4 contemplations on each of these 7 factors. So there are 28enlightenment-factor- contemplations. 7 enlightenment factors 1. sati-sam-bojjhanga or 'enlightenment factorof mindfulness' 2. dhammaavicaya-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of investigation' 3. piiti-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of joy' 4. passaddhi-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of tranquilty' 5. viiriya-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of effort' 6. samaadhi-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of concentration' 7. upekkhaa-sam-bojjhangaor 'E F of equanimity' 4 contemplations on these 7 enlightenment factors are 1. there is this enlightenment factor 2. there is not this enlightenment factor 3. this arising of this enlightenment factor is due to wise attention 4. this enlightenment factor is perfected because of arahatta magga 5. 4 Noble-Truth-contemplation 1. this is suffering 2. this is the cause of suffering 3. this is cessation of suffering 4. this is the way leading to cessation of suffering 1. this is suffering 'Idha.m dukkhanti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati'. Idham means 'this'. Dukkhanti (dukkham + iti). Dukkha means 'suffering'. Dukkhanti means 'as suffering'. Yathaa means 'as it is'. Bhuuta means 'ground' 'solid' 'base'. Yathaabhuuta means 'in truth' 'in real' 'definitely' 'absolutely'. Pajaanaati means 'know'. 'Idham dukkhanti yathabhutam pajaanaati'. This is suffering (thus he knows as it is in its absolute essence) 2. this is the cause of suffering 'Ayam dukkha samudayo hoti yathabhutam pajaanaati'. Ayam means 'this' 'these'. Samudayo means 'a cause' and samudayaa means 'causes'. Hoti means 'state of being' or 'being'. This is 'the cause of suffering (thus he knows as it is in its absolute essence). 3. this is cessation of suffering 'Ayam dukkha nirodhoti yathaabhuutam pajaanaati'. Nirodhoti = nirodho_cessation + iti_this, like this. This is cessation of suffering(thus he knows as it is in its absolute essence). 4. this is the way leading to cessation of suffering 'Ayam dukkhanirodha gaaminii pa.tipadaati yathaabhuutam pajaanaati' gaama means 'going' 'going to' 'able to go' 'leading to'. gaamin means 'leadingto' 'making for' pa.tipadaa means 'means of reaching the goal or destination'. This is th way leading to cessation of suffering (thus he knows as it is in its absolute essence) These 4 Noble-Truth-contemplations are just summary and it will be discussed when 'saccaanupassanaa' is to be discussed. a) to h) and i) to p) are exactly the same and actually this is repeatition. a) = i) = 9 B-A(Buddha's Attributes_araham, sammasambuddho..bhagava) b) = j) = 261 body-contemplations c) = k) = 9 BA d) = l) = 30 feeling-contemplations e) = m) = 9 BA f) = n) = 51consciousness-contemplations g) = o) = 9 BA h) = p) = 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 BA ( 9 Buddha's Attributes_Araham, sammasambuddho,...,bhagavaa) r) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) So there will have been a) 009 b) 261 c) 009 d) 030 e) 009 f) 051 g) 009 h) 108 i) 009 j) 261 k) 009 l) 030 m) 009 n) 051 o) 009 p) 108 q) 009 r) 099 ------ ++1080 There are 108 beads in a string of 'bead-counter'. So after a complete section there will have been 2 roundsof satipatthaana and 1 detail contemplations on Noble Truth. This is for memorization and not for satipatthaana meditation. When this method of bead-counting is done daily there will achieve the necessary ground for practising 'satipatthaana', which is the only way leading to nibbana. Next post is on 99 Noble-Truth-contemplations or saccaanupassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49044 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:15am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise buddhistmedi... Hi, Connie - I am pleased to see your email and appreciate the feedback. Thank you very much (too). Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > thank you very much, Tep. > > > > and the rest, of course! > peace, > connie 49045 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi KenH, Thank you for the corrections. Yes, you understood me correctly. What is the pali word for the opposite term of paramatta? Isnt it vohara sacca? I read with interest something you wrote sometime back about mathematics, correct me if im wrong. You said that the more advanced it becomes the more technical it gets, until there comes a point it is almost purely technical. When I read the suttas however I dont always see this reflected in the Buddha's speech. I think that is his skill as a teacher. In one sense when someone knows something well, he is just the person who would be able to put it very simply, as well. This reminds me of an old saying. For the beginner the mountain is just a mountain. For the trainee, the montain is more than a mountain. For the enlightened the mountain is again just a mountain! I think the dhamma has an added dimension in that there is a practical element as well. Learning a great deal about striking a nail with a hammer doesnt necessarily make one good at doing that, but to some degree it is helpful. I believe there is a point after which it becomes just collections of concepts perhaps based on attachment to the dhamma. >M: What would happen if we lived without changing and controlling our > deeds, words and thoughts? There would be no sila. There would be no > compassion. There would be no learning. > --------------------------------- > >KH: No, it is not like that at all. Right understanding of impermanence > (anicca) and no-control (anatta) does not mean that conventional > daily life becomes unworkable. M: Agreed. Does it also follow that doing what is based on right understanding, nevertheless involving making conscious decisions, lead to micca ditti (ie - because the conventional idea of control involves a self)? KH:The > word "lokiya" is used to describe cittas and cetasikas that take > either a concept or a conditioned dhamma as their object.) M: doesnt that make the idea of lokuttara jhana untenable? Sorry if this was discussed recently. with metta Matheesha 49046 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Lodewijk - Thanks for the following. :-) It is very encouraging!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/21/05 6:57:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, op 17-08-2005 16:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Well, I would hardly presume to give you "pointers"! ----- N: Yes, of course you do. If I would mention all the people of dsg who give me pointers, there is a long list. That is the valuable thing of feedback. Do continue giving pointers. I read your points to Lodewijk and he reacted spontaneously as follows: ------- H: But I do have an > additional point or two to make. I do not, it happens, believe in the ultimate > reality of beings. I believe that all that ever arises are sights, sounds etc. > However, when relations among them are taken into consideration, the notion of > beings isn't ill founded, and suffering is suffering even though it is > impersonal (anatta) in actuality. ----- Lodewijk: hear, hear! Fantastic. -------- H: There does seem to be a bit of "mystery" pertaining to the duality of sammuti (sp?) and paramattha, and I think a greater understanding of the intimate relationship between the two is of great importance. > --------------------------------- L: Excellent, so well formulated. This is just the way I was always thinking, but I could not formulate it in words. Also for me it is like a mystery. I do not understand why Howard never went to Bangkok. ------ N: This is meant as an encouragement. He thinks you eminently expressed a difficult point. ------- quote: I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to > purer siila. > ------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is a *very* important matter to discuss!! > ==================== N: Lodewijk and I discussed it and I jotted down a few points. I said to Lodewijk that you always pay attention to relations and he said that he quite agrees. He said: Howard can help with the necessary consistency in the way of expressing Dhamma. An example was: we hear: there is no Lodewijk, no Nina. But, we have to place this in the right context and take great care of the way how we explain this. As to siila discussions, I need feedback, I cannot discuss all by myself. Phil added a point already. I will come back to this, but I am behind in my mails. Nina. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49047 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi Larry, Yes, I agree, There is no control in an ultimate sense. Yet, there 'is' control in an conventional sense. metta Matheesha 49048 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] me mlnease Hi Bruce, And welcome. Your introduction reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask: ----- Original Message ----- From: "bruce bogusz" To: Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] me > Thank you for being so kind, but I think I am a different Bruce from the > Bruce you may have in mind. But then again I am different from what > I > was yesterday and will probably be different tomorrow. Or at least I try > to change in order to become a better person. As you may know, the second noble truth, the origin of suffering, is (in Paali) ta.nhaa (craving; thirst; lust; attachment). This can be broken into bhava (existence) ta.nhaa and vibhava (free from existence) ta.nhaa. For a long time, I've thought that the desire to be someone I think I'm not is a kind of bhava ta.nhaa, and the desire to stop being someone I think I am is a kind of vibhava ta.nhaa. Hope you don't mind my taking your introductory posting as an opportunity to ask if anyone knows of any support for this notion from the Paali texts. Thanks and nice to meet you, Bruce, mike 49049 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. mlnease Hi Nina, Howard and Lodewijk, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:57 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. > H: There does seem to be a bit of "mystery" pertaining to the duality of > sammuti (sp?) and paramattha, and I think a greater understanding of the > intimate relationship between the two is of great importance. >> --------------------------------- > L: Excellent, so well formulated. This is just the way I was always > thinking, but I could not formulate it in words. Also for me it is like a > mystery. > I do not understand why Howard never went to Bangkok. > ------ > N: This is meant as an encouragement. He thinks you eminently expressed a > difficult point. I couldn't agree more. When it comes to discussion of the Dhamma I don't think there's a single more important issue. Not that it's so central as a noble truth e.g., but without some understanding of the difference between sammuti and sacca , the conventional and the real--as subjects, not 'ontologically'--I don't think it's possible to scratch the surface of the Dhamma even theoretically. Thanks Howard, mike 49050 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:57 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. > N: yes. past rupa will be in the Vis. series on khandhas also. Past rupa > is > still rupa, not a concept. It has been, how could it change into a > concept? > It is called not so classifiable, navatthabbamaarama.na. Na: not; > vatthabbam: should be mentioned or spoken of. > For instance, the rupa such as visible object is experienced through the > eye-door by an eye-door process of cittas. Then, when it has just fallen > away it is experienced by mind-door process cittas. Its characteristic > appears. Actually it has fallen away, but it is not a concept. Understood, but may I just add that what we usually take as 'ruupa' is actually a concept developed long after the ruupa has ceased and is no longer experiencable in the mind door? mike 49051 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:21am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> lbidd2 Tep: "The Pali 'sama' means calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). So, you see, "sameness(sama)" does not imply that two things are "the same". The Thai version of BT: 'Sameness' is: "the aarammana appears as calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta is calmness". These are not sameness "in the sense of arising as one"." Hi Tep, See the index entries for "same" in "The Path of Discrimination". "Sama" can mean either "same" or "calm" and there is a word association sometimes in the sense that calm is calm because of undifferentiatedness as in one-pointed concentration. I think 'sameness' is the correct choice. Also, I'm sure "attha" is "meaning" as in attha-pa.tisambhidaa or atthapa~n~natti. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry (and Nina) - > > Thank you for the questions. I think Nina wil be delighted to respond to > your questions and my reply too. > > > Larry: Did Nina explain this? > > Tep: Nina explained "combine"; she has not explained "meaning" yet. > > > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object > (aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance > is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. > > 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without > > defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. > > 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of > > the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of > non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of > steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing > of cognizance. > > Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said." > > > > > >Larry: The way I see it 'the appearance of object is sameness' means > appearance and object are the same, like a mirror image (there is > something in Vism. about this). > >'Non-distraction of cognizance is sameness' means cognizance > (citta?) and non-distraction (samadhi?) are the same in the sense of > arising as one. > > 'Cleansing of cognizance is sameness' means the purifying because > true recognition concept ( aka 'meaning') (e.g. 'short out-breath') and > >cognizance are the same because of arising as one. > > > Tep: Appearance is 'upatthaana' in Pali. The word 'arising' > is 'uppaada' in Pali. The Pali for non-distraction is 'avikkhepa' (PTS: > avikkhepa = calmness, balance, equanimity). The Translator of BT > said the Pali for 'cognizance' is 'citta'. The Pali 'sama' means > calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). So, you > see, "sameness(sama)" does not imply that two things are "the same". > > The Thai version of BT: 'Sameness' is: "the aarammana appears as > calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta is > calmness". These are not sameness "in the sense of arising as one". > > >Larry: Here I'm going with meaning as cleansing, cleansing as > purifying defilements of wrong recognition (sanna vipallasa), > > guessing that this refers to recognition as in, 'short out- breath'. > > Tep: The closest meanings for the Pali 'attha' are profit, attainment, > advantage, gain (see PTS). So it makes more sense by the Thai > version of 'Meaning', which reads: "dhammas without drawbacks are > gain, dhammas without defilement are gain, cleansing dhammas are > attainment, adhidhammas are attainment". Here cognizance cleansing > is an attainment or gain. > > >Larry :> 'Penetrates the meaning' I take to be non-conceptual > understanding or 'seeing' of the own-nature (sabhava) of steadiness > (patthana?) etc. Does that work? > > Tep: Yes, it does. Another way to look at it is by noting that the seeing > with wisdom that leaves no room for doubts is "penetrating the > dhamma". Hence, 'penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of > cognizance' means (he) clearly understands the calmness of citta as a > gain. That's just a thought. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object > (aarammana) is > > sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the > > cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 49052 From: "frank" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:29am Subject: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger dhamma_service "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" Luang Pu answered, "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." 49053 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beauty and siila. lbidd2 Hi all, In case anyone is interested there are a couple of interesting suttas on beauty" MN5 and MN135. MN135,10: "10. "But here some woman or man is not angry or much given to rage; even when much is said, he is not furious, angry, ill- disposed, resentful, nor does he show ill-temper, hate or surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is beautiful wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to beauty, that is to say, not to be angry or given to much rage; even when much is said, not to be furious, angry, ill-disposed or resentful, or to show ill-temper, hate or surliness." Larry 49054 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger onco111 Hi Frank, I'm hope you wouldn't mind explaining your riddle a little more fully... How powerful a master Anger can be! How convincing a case it can make for itself to be king! Self (under the influence of Anger): "How could you do that?! I am very ANGRY at you!" Luang Pu: "Just be aware of your Anger, and it will disappear on its own." Self (under the influence of an increasing strong Anger): "I know I'm angry, you self-righteous, arrogant twit!! And now I'm going to enjoy the power of that Anger and crush you to a pulp." After crushing Luang Pu, Anger took leave from Self. In the relief of being free from Anger, Self felt refreshed and satisfied: "That was great! I don't need to worry about Luang Pu coming near ME again." Big smile. Great joy. Meanwhile, after getting his head pulled from the clouds above and brought down to earth (in a rather rude manner, I might add), Luang Pu began to wonder what he was missing... Metta, Dan P.S. What WAS he missing? Or is it me that is missing something? [Besides my marbles, I mean.] > "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" > > Luang Pu answered, > > "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. > When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." 49055 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:54am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry (and Matheesha) - Your statement, "No control means everything happens because of dependent arising.", sounds like a law of Nature. But its connotation can be confusing when you try to generalize it to "everything". You gave an example of "dish washing" and said there was no control in washing dishes. Are you sure? If you don't have control over the dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from falling to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc. > Larry: Path consciousness is the end of grasping but not the end of dependent arising until the final death consciousness of the arahant. Tep: In order to enter the Path there is a control, and the controllability is through samma-vayama and samma-sati. Dependent arising is always going on in the background, while the earth is rotating and the sun is radiating its heat energy. Yours truly, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Matheesha: "What would happen if we lived without changing and > controlling our deeds, words and thoughts? There would be no sila. There > would be no compassion. There would be no learning." > > Hi Matheesha and Htoo, > > I would like to say that no control doesn't mean no change. No control > means everything happens because of dependent arising. 100% engagement with family and likelihood is dependent arising. Sila, compassion, and learning arise with myriads of dhammas, conditioned by myriads of dhammas. Path consciousness is the end of grasping but not the end of dependent arising until the final death consciousness of the arahant. 49056 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I'd like to respond to the following remark you made. >Larry: > See the index entries for "same" in "The Path of Discrimination". "Sama" can mean either "same" or "calm" and there is a word association sometimes in the sense that calm is calm because of undifferentiatedness as in one-pointed concentration. I > think 'sameness' is the correct choice. > You're right about 'sama' has the double meanings as 'calm' and 'same'. So it boils down to how to select which of the two for the given context . Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Tep: "The Pali 'sama' means > calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). So, you > see, "sameness(sama)" does not imply that two things are "the same". > > The Thai version of BT: 'Sameness' is: "the aarammana appears as > calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta > is > calmness". These are not sameness "in the sense of arising as one"." > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry (and Nina) - > > > > Thank you for the questions. I think Nina wil be delighted to > respond to > > your questions and my reply too. > > > > > Larry: Did Nina explain this? > > > > Tep: Nina explained "combine"; she has not explained "meaning" yet. > > > > > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object > > (aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance > > is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. > > > 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without > > > defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. > > > 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of > > > the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of > > non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of > > steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the > cleansing > > of cognizance. > > > Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said." > > > > > > > > > >Larry: The way I see it 'the appearance of object is sameness' > means > > appearance and object are the same, like a mirror image (there is > > something in Vism. about this). > > >'Non-distraction of cognizance is sameness' means cognizance > > (citta?) and non-distraction (samadhi?) are the same in the sense > of > > arising as one. > > > 'Cleansing of cognizance is sameness' means the purifying because > > true recognition concept ( aka 'meaning') (e.g. 'short out-breath') > and > > >cognizance are the same because of arising as one. > > > > > > Tep: Appearance is 'upatthaana' in Pali. The word 'arising' > > is 'uppaada' in Pali. The Pali for non-distraction is 'avikkhepa' > (PTS: > > avikkhepa = calmness, balance, equanimity). The Translator of BT > > said the Pali for 'cognizance' is 'citta'. The Pali 'sama' means > > calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). So, > you > > see, "sameness(sama)" does not imply that two things are "the > same". > > > > The Thai version of BT: 'Sameness' is: "the aarammana appears as > > calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright > citta is > > calmness". These are not sameness "in the sense of arising as one". > > > > >Larry: Here I'm going with meaning as cleansing, cleansing as > > purifying defilements of wrong recognition (sanna vipallasa), > > > guessing that this refers to recognition as in, 'short out- > breath'. > > > > Tep: The closest meanings for the Pali 'attha' are profit, > attainment, > > advantage, gain (see PTS). So it makes more sense by the Thai > > version of 'Meaning', which reads: "dhammas without drawbacks are > > gain, dhammas without defilement are gain, cleansing dhammas are > > attainment, adhidhammas are attainment". Here cognizance cleansing > > is an attainment or gain. > > > > >Larry :> 'Penetrates the meaning' I take to be non-conceptual > > understanding or 'seeing' of the own-nature (sabhava) of steadiness > > (patthana?) etc. Does that work? > > > > Tep: Yes, it does. Another way to look at it is by noting that the > seeing > > with wisdom that leaves no room for doubts is "penetrating the > > dhamma". Hence, 'penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of > > cognizance' means (he) clearly understands the calmness of citta as > a > > gain. That's just a thought. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ======= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > BT: "'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object > > (aarammana) is > > > sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the > > > cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 49057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: past rupa. nilovg Hi Mike, op 21-08-2005 18:06 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: >> N: yes. past rupa will be in the Vis. series on khandhas also. Past rupa >> is >> still rupa, not a concept. It has been, how could it change into a >> concept? >> It is called not so classifiable, navatthabbamaarama.na. Na: not; >> vatthabbam: should be mentioned or spoken of. >> For instance, the rupa such as visible object is experienced through the >> eye-door by an eye-door process of cittas. Then, when it has just fallen >> away it is experienced by mind-door process cittas. Its characteristic >> appears. Actually it has fallen away, but it is not a concept. ------ M: > Understood, but may I just add that what we usually take as 'ruupa' is > actually a concept developed long after the ruupa has ceased and is no > longer experiencable in the mind door? ------ We may think of a thing or a person on account of visible object that we saw. Then it is clear. Past rupa I always found difficult. But from the discussions in Bgk I understood: past rupa is still rupa, not a concept. This is in the suttas also. How do I experience it? This I do not know, except as in the example above, when it has just fallen away. Nina. 49058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beauty and siila. nilovg Hi Larry, a very good sutta and it gives a good explanation what beauty is. Nina. op 21-08-2005 19:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > In case anyone is interested there are a couple of interesting suttas > on beauty" MN5 and MN135. > > MN135,10: "10. "But here some woman or man is not angry or much given > to rage; even when much is said, he is not furious, angry, ill- > disposed, resentful, nor does he show ill-temper, hate or surliness. > Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution > of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If > instead he comes to the human state, he is beautiful wherever he is > reborn. This is the way that leads to beauty, that is to say, not to > be angry or given to much rage; even when much is said, not to be > furious, angry, ill-disposed or resentful, or to show ill-temper, > hate or surliness." 49059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 217 - 238. <2nd Half> nilovg Hi Larry and Tep, sameness is opposed to diversity I found in some sutta texts. The latter seems to refer to distraction. Calm seems to me a good translation. Attha in attha-pa.tisambhidaa : the result of a cause is one of the many meanings, remember the beginning of Ch XIV, Vis.? dhamma patisambhidaa: discrimination of cause. For meanings of attha see Nyanatiloka dictionary. Nina. op 21-08-2005 19:21 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > > See the index entries for "same" in "The Path of > Discrimination". "Sama" can mean either "same" or "calm" and there is > a word association sometimes in the sense that calm is calm because > of undifferentiatedness as in one-pointed concentration. I > think 'sameness' is the correct choice. > > Also, I'm sure "attha" is "meaning" as in attha-pa.tisambhidaa or > atthapa~n~natti. 49060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. nilovg Hi Mike, op 21-08-2005 17:51 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > > As you may know, the second noble truth, the origin of suffering, is (in > Paali) ta.nhaa (craving; thirst; lust; attachment). This can be broken into > bhava (existence) ta.nhaa and vibhava (free from existence) ta.nhaa. ------ N: there are different ways of classifying, see Nyanatiloka Dict. kaama-tanhaa: sensual craving. bhava-tanhaa: craving for becoming: includes craving for the result of jhaana. Not always with wrong view. But it can be with wrong view. vibhava-tanhaa: this is craving for annihilation, always with wrong view. -------------- Mike: For a long time, I've thought that the desire to be someone I think I'm not > is a kind of bhava ta.nhaa, and the desire to stop being someone I think I > am is a kind of vibhava ta.nhaa. ------ N: I quote from a correspondence I had with Jim: It seems that there are contradictions, but usually this is because different items are stressed. There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked at the Dispeller of Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by ditthi. I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it seems all kinds of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: for existence rupa and arupa, and then, craving for non-existence annihilism. On p. 475, under asavas, again they are separately enumerated: Passionate desire for life in a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for jhaana, lust coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the intoxicant of rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand, these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the clinging to rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not necessarily with wrong view. Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988. First is explained about bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about two other bhavata.nhaa: ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa. ..He then explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the text here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. It is asked: why has it been taught thus? Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of the three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti, sabbe ta.nhaa kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) tato niiharitvaa(deduced therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi. And at the end he names these two again and in addition he says: uccheda-di.t.thi-sahagato raago nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, nirodha. The word itaro dve I find significant, two other kinds. And with these two kinds he adds chanda-raago, which may represent clinging without di.t.thi. Why otherwise is he saying this? The sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I find difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing this. When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or with ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or its result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated at the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he knows this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a ruupa plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his attainment of jhaana. Jim:< "bhave ta.nhaa" is craving with respect to existence. Bhave is in the > locative sing. and I'm not sure how it relates to ta.nhaa so here 'with > respect to' is just a guess. This resolution of the compound might be where > the "craving for existence" comes from. You will also note that in this > explanation the craving is also accompanied by the eternity-view but > ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga as the sixth and seventh fetters (sa.myojana-s) > are without the eternity view (eradicated at the stream-entry level). I > suspect that the desire for jhaanic states is also accompanied by the > eternity view.> *** Nina. 49061 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank - I am a third-generation student of Luang Pu (Dulaya, or 'Dun'), i.e. learning from published materials after he passed away. So noone should blame me for feeling delighted when I read your post: >Frank: > "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" > > Luang Pu answered, > > "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. > When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." > There are many more of Luang Pu's short but full-of-meaning teachings. Do you have the book LUANG PU'S LEGACY? Have you practiced his unique Citta Bhavana (knowing the citta like the eye seeing an image)? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > > 49062 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. - I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not funny at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. So maybe the following online article can help you know him better to give him a little more respect. Luang Pu Dulaya LUANG PU'S LEGACY THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ Thanks. Tep Sastri ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Frank, > I'm hope you wouldn't mind explaining your riddle a little more fully... > > How powerful a master Anger can be! How convincing a case it can make > for itself to be king! > > Self (under the influence of Anger): "How could you do that?! I am very > ANGRY at you!" > > Luang Pu: "Just be aware of your Anger, and it will disappear on its > own." > > Self (under the influence of an increasing strong Anger): "I know I'm > angry, you self-righteous, arrogant twit!! And now I'm going to enjoy > the power of that Anger and crush you to a pulp." > > After crushing Luang Pu, Anger took leave from Self. In the relief of > being free from Anger, Self felt refreshed and satisfied: "That was > great! I don't need to worry about Luang Pu coming near ME again." Big > smile. Great joy. > > Meanwhile, after getting his head pulled from the clouds above and > brought down to earth (in a rather rude manner, I might add), Luang Pu > began to wonder what he was missing... > > Metta, > > Dan > > P.S. What WAS he missing? Or is it me that is missing something? > [Besides my marbles, I mean.] > > > "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" > > > > Luang Pu answered, > > > > "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in > time. > > When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." 49063 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. buddhistmedi... Hi Mike and Nina - Your discussion on tanha : kama-, bhava- and vibhava- tanha is very informative. It helps me recall Acariya Buddhaghosa's shorter explanation [Vism. XVII, 235, page 584] "When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible- data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for nonbecoming; for it is the greed accompanying the annihilation view that is called craving for non-becoming." {Same for sound, etc.} Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Mike, > op 21-08-2005 17:51 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > > As you may know, the second noble truth, the origin of suffering, is (in > > Paali) ta.nhaa (craving; thirst; lust; attachment). This can be broken into > > bhava (existence) ta.nhaa and vibhava (free from existence) ta.nhaa. > ------ > N: there are different ways of classifying, see Nyanatiloka Dict. > kaama-tanhaa: sensual craving. > bhava-tanhaa: craving for becoming: includes craving for the result of > jhaana. Not always with wrong view. But it can be with wrong view. > vibhava-tanhaa: this is craving for annihilation, always with wrong view. > -------------- > Mike: For a long time, I've thought that the desire to be someone I think > I'm not > > is a kind of bhava ta.nhaa, and the desire to stop being someone I think I > > am is a kind of vibhava ta.nhaa. > ------ > N: I quote from a correspondence I had with Jim: > It seems that there are > contradictions, but usually this is because different items are stressed. > There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked at the Dispeller of > Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by ditthi. > I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it seems all kinds > of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: for existence rupa and > arupa, and then, craving for non-existence annihilism. On p. 475, under > asavas, again they are separately enumerated: Passionate desire for life in > a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for > jhaana, lust coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the intoxicant > of rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand, > these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the clinging to > rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not necessarily with wrong > view. > Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988. > First is explained about bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about two > other bhavata.nhaa: ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa. > > ..He then explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the > text here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as > included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. > It is asked: why has it been taught thus? Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma > (Also all dhammas of the three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa- vatthukaa > ti, sabbe ta.nhaa > kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) tato niiharitvaa (deduced > therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi. And at the end he names these two > again and in addition he says: uccheda-di.t.thi-sahagato raago > nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, nirodha. > The word itaro dve I find significant, two other kinds. And with these two > kinds he adds chanda-raago, which may represent clinging without di.t.thi. > Why otherwise is he saying > this? The sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I > find difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing > this. > > When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or with > ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or its > result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara > dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated at > the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are > eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he knows > this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a ruupa > plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his > attainment of jhaana. > > Jim:< "bhave ta.nhaa" is craving with respect to existence. Bhave is in the > > locative sing. and I'm not sure how it relates to ta.nhaa so here 'with > > respect to' is just a guess. This resolution of the compound might be where > > the "craving for existence" comes from. You will also note that in this > > explanation the craving is also accompanied by the eternity-view but > > ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga as the sixth and seventh fetters (sa.myojana-s) > > are without the eternity view (eradicated at the stream-entry level). I > > suspect that the desire for jhaanic states is also accompanied by the > > eternity view.> > *** > Nina. 49064 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The chemical nature of desire egberdina > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Herman, > > What you referred to as teaching about self is not teachinf about > atta. > > The Buddha never taught 'atta'. > > Teaching regarding individual is not teaching of 'atta'. > > If you look things with tainted glasses all the views will be tainted. > > Why incompatible between 'anatta' and 'kamma'? > I have misunderstood. Thank you. Kind Regards Herman 49065 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger egberdina Hi Tep, Do you think Luang Pu is concerned about respect? On 22/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Dan D. - > > I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not funny > at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. > > So maybe the following online article can help you know him better to > give him a little more respect. > > Luang Pu Dulaya > LUANG PU'S LEGACY > THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) > (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > Kind Regards Herman 49066 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are > .... Dear Htoo, In this message and in 49042 you explain the fetters as mentioned in the Suttas: … 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of fine-material being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' .. It's of course not the first time I read about the fetters. And many times I think about this two: I don't have this fetters, I don't have the desire of fine-material being or non-material being. This is was I think about this life. But I have also read an explanation that these fetters refer to the desire being reborn in one of the higher (of the 31) realms. And again I think: I don't have the desire of being reborn in general and not in these higher realms more specific. So my first question is: is it according the Teachings possible that a worldling (like me) never have had these two fetters? And my second question is one of Buddhistic method: is it necessary first getting these two desires so that it is possible to release them or get released? Metta Joop 49067 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:54pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger onco111 Dear Tep, Thanks for the link. I do have great respect and appreciation for Luang Pu and his work -- so great that I think he'd be delighted by the serious, difficult question I raised and wouldn't mind the lighthearted manner in which I raised it. Peace, my friend in Dhamma, Con mucho karuna, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Dan D. - > > I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not funny > at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. > > So maybe the following online article can help you know him better to > give him a little more respect. > > Luang Pu Dulaya > LUANG PU'S LEGACY > THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) > (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > > > > Thanks. > > > Tep Sastri > > ================ > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > I'm hope you wouldn't mind explaining your riddle a little more fully... > > > > How powerful a master Anger can be! How convincing a case it can > make > > for itself to be king! > > > > Self (under the influence of Anger): "How could you do that?! I am very > > ANGRY at you!" > > > > Luang Pu: "Just be aware of your Anger, and it will disappear on its > > own." > > > > Self (under the influence of an increasing strong Anger): "I know I'm > > angry, you self-righteous, arrogant twit!! And now I'm going to enjoy > > the power of that Anger and crush you to a pulp." > > > > After crushing Luang Pu, Anger took leave from Self. In the relief of > > being free from Anger, Self felt refreshed and satisfied: "That was > > great! I don't need to worry about Luang Pu coming near ME again." > Big > > smile. Great joy. > > > > Meanwhile, after getting his head pulled from the clouds above and > > brought down to earth (in a rather rude manner, I might add), Luang Pu > > began to wonder what he was missing... > > > > Metta, > > > > Dan > > > > P.S. What WAS he missing? Or is it me that is missing something? > > [Besides my marbles, I mean.] > > > > > "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" > > > > > > Luang Pu answered, > > > > > > "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in > > time. > > > When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." 49068 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:05pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. - Thank you for the peaceful message. Reading the following statements of yours in the previous post, how could anyone ever understand your (hidden) "great respect and appreciation for Luang Pu and his work"? ----------------------------------- Dan D. >>"I know I'm angry, you self-righteous, arrogant twit!! And now I'm >>going to enjoy the power of that Anger and crush you to a pulp." > > > > Meanwhile, after getting his head pulled from the clouds above >> and brought down to earth (in a rather rude manner, I might add), >> Luang Pu began to wonder what he was missing... > > ----------------------------------------------- Peace to you too, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thanks for the link. I do have great respect and appreciation for > Luang Pu and his work -- so great that I think he'd be delighted by > the serious, difficult question I raised and wouldn't mind the > lighthearted manner in which I raised it. > > Peace, my friend in Dhamma, > > Con mucho karuna, > > Dan > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Dan D. - > > > > I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not > funny > at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. > > > > So maybe the following online article can help you know him better > to give him a little more respect. > > > > Luang Pu Dulaya > > LUANG PU'S LEGACY > > THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) > > (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) > > > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Tep Sastri > > > > ================ 49069 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beauty and siila. rjkjp1 Dear Nina, I thought it was a good sutta too, but I can't see where it describes beauty. I think rather it is defining the causes for beauty to arise. Other teachings explain human beauty in terms of golden complexion, raven hair, pearl white teeth, fine posture and so on. with respect Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > a very good sutta and it gives a good explanation what beauty is. > Nina. > op 21-08-2005 19:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > In case anyone is interested there are a couple of interesting suttas > > on beauty" MN5 and MN135. > > > > MN135,10: "10. "But here some woman or man is not angry or much given > > to rage; even when much is said, he is not furious, angry, ill- > > disposed, resentful, nor does he show ill-temper, hate or surliness. > > Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution > > of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If > > instead he comes to the human state, he is beautiful wherever he is > > reborn. This is the way that leads to beauty, that is to say, not to > > be angry or given to much rage; even when much is said, not to be > > furious, angry, ill-disposed or resentful, or to show ill-temper, > > hate or surliness." 49070 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - Thank you for the comment : --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Do you think Luang Pu is concerned about respect? > Tep: Good question although the timing is off by 22 years; he passed away in Oct. 1983. But even while he was still living, he was above all 8 lokadahamma (Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. AN VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta). But I still do ! Regards, Tep ====== > > > On 22/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > Hi, Dan D. - > > > > I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not funny > > at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. > > > > So maybe the following online article can help you know him better to > > give him a little more respect. > > > > Luang Pu Dulaya > > LUANG PU'S LEGACY > > THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) > > (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) > > > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 49071 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:22pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 gazita2002 hello Sarah, KenH, and Steve, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Packing for our return to Hong Kong tomorrow..... > > Another great day of discussion with A.Sujin and friends today. Especially > good to have Num (and his texts for reference) with us.... > > ....snip.... > - In samatha, panna knows kusala as kusala, akusala as akusala as > concepts. Like now. A. don't understand this. I thought that the panna dev in samatha knew a/kusala as realities and knew them from ea other. I thought panna had to know them like this so that right samatha would dev. Can you give more explanation please Sarah. > > - levitation (for Ken H & Steve).....even a yogi can levitate because of > the cittas, not necessarily pure in anyway....anything possible. Access > concentration is a very highly developed level of samatha, but no refs > with regard to levitation given A. ummm - levitation eh? maybe if you two become proficient at it, you could levitate your way up here. Its a bit of a 'dry arguement', in terms of dhamma discussions, here. Glad to hear the Cooran w/e went well. > - 'If there is no contempaltion of reality (now or in the past), there > cannot be patisambhida (of all ariyans) because it's just in the book'/ > Num found the reference for A.Sujin's comment in the Patisambhida Magga. I > think the 5 conditions given are: > > a) attending to enlightenment > b) pariyatti > c) listening > d) questioning > e) previous effort (viriya) A. a] seems like the odd one out - how does one 'attend to enlightenment'? > > Hope to get corrections on this and any further snippets from anyone else > attending, BUT also reflecting on 'hope is clinging to nothing'! > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= thanx in advance, patience, courage and good cheer azita 49072 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger onco111 Tep, please try to read the story for what it is, viz. a fictitous, fanciful account of how the words of Luang Pu might sound to an angry person, as narrated by that angry person after the encounter. The story vividly raises important questions about awareness and about control (including some that may be uncomfortable). Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Dan D. - > > Thank you for the peaceful message. Reading the following > statements of yours in the previous post, how could anyone ever > understand your (hidden) "great respect and appreciation for Luang Pu > and his work"? > > ----------------------------------- > Dan D. > > >>"I know I'm angry, you self-righteous, arrogant twit!! And now I'm > >>going to enjoy the power of that Anger and crush you to a pulp." > > > > > > > Meanwhile, after getting his head pulled from the clouds above > >> and brought down to earth (in a rather rude manner, I might add), > >> Luang Pu began to wonder what he was missing... > > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > Peace to you too, > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the link. I do have great respect and appreciation for > > Luang Pu and his work -- so great that I think he'd be delighted by > > the serious, difficult question I raised and wouldn't mind the > > lighthearted manner in which I raised it. > > > > Peace, my friend in Dhamma, > > > > Con mucho karuna, > > > > Dan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Dan D. - > > > > > > I have to tell you from the beginning that the joke you made is not > > funny > at all. Perhaps, you don't know Luang Pu. > > > > > > So maybe the following online article can help you know him better > > to give him a little more respect. > > > > > > Luang Pu Dulaya > > > LUANG PU'S LEGACY > > > THE TEACHINGS OF LUANG PU DUN (ATULO) > > > (Translated from the book "Atulo" by Bhikkhu Khemasanto) > > > > > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > Tep Sastri > > > > > > ================ 49073 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Tep: "You gave an example of "dish washing" and said there was no control in washing dishes. Are you sure? If you don't have control over the dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from falling to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc." Hi Tep, We could make this into a meditation. The next time you wash the dishes try to find the control. Larry 49074 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. - Thank you for the explanation: > Dan D.: > Tep, please try to read the story for what it is, viz. a fictitous, > fanciful account of how the words of Luang Pu might sound to an angry person, as narrated by that angry person after the encounter. > The story vividly raises important questions about awareness and > about control (including some that may be uncomfortable). > > Metta, > > Dan Tep: O.K. I see now. I am not as playful as you are. When it comes to the Dhamma, there is nothing playful to me. People are different, of course. However, I do not see any "important questions about awareness and about control (including some that may be uncomfortable)" as you have stated. Luang Pu were above anger -- everybody who knew him knows about this. Don't you think that the problem about control of anger is below his level? Warm regards, Tep =========== 49075 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - You replied: > Hi Tep, > > We could make this into a meditation. The next time you wash the dishes > try to find the control. > > Larry Tep: You are too high above me now! I don't know how you can or should make washing dishes as a meditation! Control is needed to guide, steady, retrieve data (from memory), to change direction, to start and stop all actions, etc. Dish washing is no exception. Next time, try driving a car without controlling the steering wheel. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "You gave an example of "dish washing" and said there was no > control in washing dishes. Are you sure? If you don't have control over > the dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from > falling to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc." > 49076 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ correction buddhistmedi... Hi, Herma - I am sorry for my poor grammar and a typo. Must try to remember not to type too fast again. The following is my correction to the previous message: >Tep: Good question although the timing is off by 22 years; he passed away in Oct. 1983. But even while he was still living, he was above all 8 > loka-dhamma (Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, > praise, pleasure, & pain. AN VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta). > > But I still am (concerned with the 8 loka-dhamma)! > Thank you. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > Thank you for the comment : > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > Do you think Luang Pu is concerned about respect? > > > > Tep: Good question although the timing is off by 22 years; he passed > away in Oct. 1983. But even while he was still living, he was above all 8 > lokadahamma (Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, > praise, pleasure, & pain. AN VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta). > > But I still do ! > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ====== 49077 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. mlnease Hi Tep and Nina, Well-cited, thanks. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Any texts relating to the same thing regarding 'mental-data craving'? Otherwise this pertains only to paramattha dhammas and not concepts I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. > Hi Mike and Nina - > > Your discussion on tanha : kama-, bhava- and vibhava- tanha is very > informative. It helps me recall Acariya Buddhaghosa's shorter > explanation [Vism. XVII, 235, page 584] > > "When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire > enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the > eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible- > data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes that > same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for becoming. > When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that same > object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for > nonbecoming; for it is the greed accompanying the annihilation view > that is called craving for non-becoming." {Same for sound, etc.} 49078 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ correction egberdina Hi Tep, I understand. And I understood. You answered very well. To your credit. Kind Regards Herman On 22/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Herma - > > I am sorry for my poor grammar and a typo. Must try to remember not to > type too fast again. > > The following is my correction to the previous message: > > > >Tep: Good question although the timing is off by 22 years; he passed > away in Oct. 1983. But even while he was still living, he was above all 8 > > loka-dhamma (Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, > > praise, pleasure, & pain. AN VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta). > > > > But I still am (concerned with the 8 loka-dhamma)! > > > > Thank you. > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Herman - > > > > Thank you for the comment : > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > > wrote: > > > Hi Tep, > > > > > > Do you think Luang Pu is concerned about respect? > > > > > > > Tep: Good question although the timing is off by 22 years; he passed > > away in Oct. 1983. But even while he was still living, he was above all > 8 > > lokadahamma (Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, > > praise, pleasure, & pain. AN VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta). > > > > But I still do ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ====== > 49079 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry and all, On 22/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Tep: "You gave an example of "dish washing" and said there was no > control in washing dishes. Are you sure? If you don't have control over > the dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from > falling to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc." > > Hi Tep, > > We could make this into a meditation. The next time you wash the dishes > try to find the control. Can we turn it into a scientific meditation? :-) What conclusions will we allow ourselves to draw from the fact that we will not find what we set out to? Are we finding that there is no control, or are we discovering that there is a limit to what is available to awareness of the present moment? Kind Regards Herman 49080 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike - The mental-data craving is the sixth kind of craving, and the visible- data craving being the first. If I understand your brief request correctly, we can apply the same format for the visible-data craving by simply substituting 'visible-data craving' by 'mental-data craving' into the para 235. The Vism doesn't separately discuss the mental-data craving. Please let me know if I misinterpreted your request. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep and Nina, > > Well-cited, thanks. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Any texts > relating to the same thing regarding 'mental-data craving'? Otherwise this > pertains only to paramattha dhammas and not concepts I think. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tep Sastri" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:10 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. > > > Hi Mike and Nina - > > > > Your discussion on tanha : kama-, bhava- and vibhava- tanha is very informative. It helps me recall Acariya Buddhaghosa's shorter > > explanation [Vism. XVII, 235, page 584] > > > > "When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire > > enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible- data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for becoming. > > When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for > > nonbecoming; for it is the greed accompanying the annihilation view > > that is called craving for non-becoming." {Same for sound, etc.} > 49081 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ correction buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - Thanks for the reply. >Herman: > I understand. And I understood. You answered very well. To your credit. Tep: Thank you too. But it is not difficult to satisfy you, Herman. Maybe that's why you are among the most popular members here. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Tep, > 49082 From: "frank" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) dhamma_service Wow. I'm surprised at the heated discussion that the quote generated. And the heat wasn't even directed at me, which is a welcome bonus. ---------------------------------------- "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" Luang Pu answered, "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." ----------------------------------------- My comments on the quote: The quote came from a slightly different version than the one Tep mentioned (different translator maybe?) of the collected saying of Luang Pu on ATI. Based on those sayings, I have no doubt that Luang Pu was an Arahant (my opinion from a non-arahant perspective). I have boundless reverence for this man. The way the question is phrased, "how does one cut off anger", the inquirer seems to anticipate the method would involve a strong will and forceful measures to eliminate anger. Luang Pu's response immediately dispels any notion of forceful countermeasure or any kind of repression, suppression, smoke & mirrors diversion that temporarily averts anger without addressing the underlying cause. His method is sublime and elegantly stated, completely in accordance with the Buddhadhamma, but expressed through the particular nuance of his practice and personality. He points out how there isn't a real Self that can just will anger out of existence, or beat it down with force. Instead. Anger is dissolved by seeing reality clearly, penetrating into the four noble truths, seeing the cause of anger and erroneous perceptions and mental formations that underly the trigger point of anger. Once these causes of anger are seen as they're happening in real time, the illusion bursts and anger has no fuel to sustain itself and disappears on its own, gently, without force, habituating our mindfulness to repeat this method in the future, nourishing our wisdom. No other anger management method I'm aware of so directly targets the root cause. The result of faulty anger management is that the practitioner MAY appear to be very happy and unperturbed by anger for long periods of time until the repressed pressure bursts and they go berzerk, leaving a wake of terrified friends and family. -fk p.s. My intention is to post a short pithy dhamma verse daily, or have a friend post it for me if I'm not available for an extended period of time. I sporadically and selectively read the messages in the forums that this series is posted, so if you have a question directed to me it's best to CC: my direct email frank@... to guarantee a response. 49083 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, ----------------- . . . M: > What is the pali word for the opposite term of paramatta? Isnt it vohara sacca? ------------------- The opposite of paramattha (absolute) is pannatti (conceptual). Pannatti-sila, for example, refers to the conventional practice of (or, the concept of) observing precepts, whereas paramattha-sila refers to a moment of consciousness (citta) that contains virati- cetasika. Needless to say, there is a profound difference between the two. As I understand it, 'vohara sacca' (conventional truth) has a much narrower usage than 'pannatti.' I think it means 'Dhamma expressed in conventional language' - as distinct from 'Dhamma expressed in Abhidhamma language.' In other words it means; 'Dhamma expressed in concepts that refer to other concepts' as distinct from, 'Dhamma expressed in concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas.' In any case, Dhamma is always Dhamma - right understanding of a presently arisen paramattha dhamma. -------------------------------- M: > I read with interest something you wrote sometime back about mathematics, correct me if im wrong. You said that the more advanced it becomes the more technical it gets, until there comes a point it is almost purely technical. -------------------------------- You might be confusing me with someone else. I did have a discussion quite recently with Joop in which he made some points about mathematical language. My only contribution was to say that the things referred to in *Abhidhamma* language were absolutely real - they were not hypothetical objects invented by the Buddha for the purposes communication. ---------- M: > When I read the suttas however I dont always see this reflected in the Buddha's speech. I think that is his skill as a teacher. In one sense when someone knows something well, he is just the person who would be able to put it very simply, as well. ---------- That sounds right to me. I feel sure, however, that there cannot be correct understanding of suttas unless there is correct understanding of Abhidhamma. In essence, all Dhamma is Abhidhamma. -------------------- M: > This reminds me of an old saying. For the beginner the mountain is just a mountain. For the trainee, the mountain is more than a mountain. For the enlightened the mountain is again just a mountain! -------------------- Yes, I think I understand that. ----------------------------- M: > I think the dhamma has an added dimension in that there is a practical element as well. Learning a great deal about striking a nail with a hammer doesnt necessarily make one good at doing that, but to some degree it is helpful. ----------------------------- Agreed; a person has to pick up a hammer and nail, and practise what he has learnt. When it comes to hammering nails, there is no need for Dhamma. We don't need to know that, ultimately, there is no hammer, no nail and no being that uses them. Therefore, it is possible to learn and practise nail hammering without [ultimately] learning or practising anything. When we learn Dhamma, however, we learn that there are only conditioned namas and rupas - no self. What would you suggest we do in order to put that learning into practice? Would you want us to practise in a way that says there is a self? No, I don't think you would, because Dhamma practice, being ultimately real, is not like nail hammering, which is ultimately illusory. There are only conditioned dhammas - so the Dhamma is put into practice when panna (right understanding) is conditioned to arise - not before. ------------------------------------------------------- M: > I believe there is a point after which it becomes just collections of concepts perhaps based on attachment to the dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------ Maybe so; in which case, what should we do? I say we should understand - here and now - that there are only dhammas. Such vital, essential, understanding can be conditioned to arise only if the Dhamma has been properly heard, discussed and considered. --------------------- . . . KH: > > Right understanding of impermanence > (anicca) and no-control (anatta) does not mean that conventional > daily life becomes unworkable. >..... M: > Agreed. Does it also follow that doing what is based on right understanding, nevertheless involving making conscious decisions, lead to micca ditti (ie - because the conventional idea of control involves a self)? ----------- If I understand the question correctly, I would say, yes, it does involve micca-ditthi. When there is wrong understanding of conditionality, there can be the idea of a self who can 'get in there and make Dhamma-practice happen!' When there is right understanding of conditionality, there is no desire to 'get in there and make Dhamma-practice happen.' Why should there be? -------------------- KH: > > The word "lokiya" is used to describe cittas and cetasikas that take > either a concept or a conditioned dhamma as their object.) > >. . . M: > doesnt that make the idea of lokuttara jhana untenable? Sorry if this was discussed recently. -------------------- It was discussed recently, but I am glad of the chance for revision. I think your point is: given that jhana has a concept as its object, and given that lokuttara consciousness has Nibbana (an unconditioned dhamma) as its object, how can there be lokuttara jhana? If I understand correctly, lokuttara jhana is a synonym for Eightfold- path-consciousness. Eight-fold-path-consciousness, (which is supramundane) is always accompanied by an intensely strong form of samadhi-cetasika (at a level found in the first jhana or higher). And so Eightfold-path-consciousness is sometimes called lokuttara jhana. Simple as that! :-) Ken H 49084 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Herman: "Can we turn it into a scientific meditation? :-) What conclusions will we allow ourselves to draw from the fact that we will not find what we set out to? Are we finding that there is no control, or are we discovering that there is a limit to what is available to awareness of the present moment?" Hi Herman, Give it your best shot. Let me know when you find control scientifically. Larry 49085 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry, Thank you for setting such an easy task for me. On 22/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Herman: "Can we turn it into a scientific meditation? :-) What > conclusions will we allow ourselves to draw from the fact that we will > not find what we set out to? Are we finding that there is no control, or > are we discovering that there is a limit to what is available to > awareness of the present moment?" > > Hi Herman, > > Give it your best shot. Let me know when you find control > scientifically. > Satisfying myself that there is control is easy, satisfying others that this is so may be a bit harder. If we can agree on a definition of control, then perhaps we can end up agreeing on the matter of control as a whole. Messrs Meriam and Webster have "control", IMHO uncontroversially, as "to exercise restraining or directing influence over". In our context, control would simply be an instance of an amalgam of conditions, with one or some of them exercising more dominance than others. Is this a workable definition for you? Kind Regards Herman 49086 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Anatta, Kamma and the Law egberdina Hi all, I once wrote to Jon privately, asking him about the following. He suggested that it would be a good topic for public discussion. That was more than 2 years ago. Here goes :-). Most of us live in countries governed by laws which hold the individual to be personally responsible for their actions, and negligence. There are various nuances, eg some countries allow for mitigating factors such as mental illness. Some of these countries may even be predominantly Buddhist. How does a Buddhist (especially a legal beagle of Buddhist persuasion) reconcile the notion of individual responsibility, with the notions of anatta and kamma, which imply an absence of individual agency (the ability to act outside of prevailing conditions)? Kind Regards Herman 49087 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object egberdina Hi Ken, Thank you very much for this. I think your examples are good, and I don't doubt that you are on the right track :-) One question below. On 21/08/05, kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Herman (Colette, Bruce), > > ------------------------- > H: > Ken, it would help me a great deal if you could give me an > example or two of an intrinsically desirable rupa, or some > undesirable ones. > -------------------------- > > Thanks for asking, Herman, I will do my best. But first, I would like > to give an example of an intrinsically wholesome nama. Adosa > (harmlessness) is an intrinsically wholesome nama. Being a paramattha > dhamma it comes and goes in a ridiculously short period of time, so > you might ask, "Where is the use in that sort of example?" But you > and I have a fair understanding of harmlessness. > > On the odd occasion that we have experienced adosa, panna has not > been there to know it as adosa - the conditioned nama - but, > nonetheless, adosa has been experienced. So we know the meaning of > harmlessness even though we can't pin it down to a precise point in > time. We sometimes confuse it with other things, such as > sentimentality, but we have a pretty good idea of what it is like. > > To answer your question, my example of an intrinsically desirable > rupa is; 'desirable visible object.' Again, it sounds like a useless > sort of example, but you and I know what it is like to see something > desirable. Along with 'accountants and merchants'' - or 'the average > joe in the street' - we know what it is like, even though none of us > could confidently pin it down to a specific point in time. > > Corrections are welcome, but I think I am on the right track with > this. :-) > == Would anything change if we removed "intrinsically un/desirable" as a qualification? Are there just not nama and rupa? I see the qualification of "intrinsically un/desirable" as serving no function other than a pitfall for the greedy or aversive mind. Thanks for your thoughts Herman 49088 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: compassion and paramattha dhammas, to Howard. egberdina Hi Mike, I am interested to learn more about your take on this. See below. > > I couldn't agree more. When it comes to discussion of the Dhamma I don't > think there's a single more important issue. Not that it's so central as a > noble truth e.g., but without some understanding of the difference between > sammuti and sacca , the conventional and the real--as subjects, not > 'ontologically'--I don't think it's possible to scratch the surface of the > Dhamma even theoretically. > I'm thinking of any number of suttas, but let's just pick MN121, the lesser discourse on emptiness. (I find that a curious epithet, given the profundity of its Dhamma, but I am guessing it is lesser only sizewise in relation to its maha cousin). I read your post as saying that it is essential to introduce commentarial notions of sacca and so forth before one can have any fruitful understanding of any of the Suttas. Am I correct in that reading? I find the ideas expressed in MN121, as in just about any number of other Suttas quite convincing without any reference to sacca or sammuti or paramattha. What needs to be added to "Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure." The volumes and volumes of theoretical work that have been spawned by the Suttas, in some way, actually are a negative statement about the efficacy of the message the Buddha. As though his meaning isn't quite clear. Kind Regards Herman 49089 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:48pm Subject: The 18 Principal Insights ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The 18 principal Insights is an profound Understanding induced by: 1: Cultivating reflection on impermanence leaving the illusion of permanence, 2: Cultivating reflection on pain leaving the illusion of pleasure, 3: Cultivating reflection on no-self leaving the illusion of self, 4: Cultivating reflection on disillusion leaving naive delighting, 5: Cultivating reflection on disgust leaving voracious greed, 6: Cultivating reflection on ceasing leaving initiating origination, 7: Cultivating reflection on relinquishment leaving grasped glinging, 8: Cultivating reflection on fragility leaving the illusion of solidity, 9: Cultivating reflection on the disappearance of all constructions leaving accumulation, 10: Cultivating reflection on change leaving the illusion of lasting constancy, 11: Cultivating reflection on the signless leaving the sign of mere appearance, 12: Cultivating reflection on the desireless leaving the feverish urge within desire, 13: Cultivating reflection on voidness leaving the insistence on the deception: 'I am', 14: Cultivating reflection on higher understanding leaving glinging to the idea of a core, 15: Cultivating reflection on direct knowledge & vision leaving confused misinterpretation, 16: Cultivating reflection on danger leaving assumptions of reliance on what is not safe, 17: Cultivating reflection on thorough contemplation leaving neglect of non-contemplation, 18: Cultivating reflection on turning away leaving misinterpreting insistence on bondage... Source: The Path of Purification XX 90: Visuddhimagga. In excellent legendary translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Written by 'the Great Explainer' Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 49090 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 255- Attachment/lobha (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha is extremely hard to eradicate because it has been accumulated, also in past lives; it is deeply rooted. Even when we have studied the Dhamma and we have heard about the dangers of lobha we still want pleasant things for ourselves. We want possessions and we are attached to people. At the moment of attachment we do not realize that all the things we desire are susceptible to change, that they cannot last. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49091 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 sarahprocter... Hi Azita, (We thought of you a lot on the trip and were disappointed to find out that you were unable to join the discussions in Queensland with all your present moment comments. Anyway, we hope to see you in India. I had taken an mp3 for you, but gave it to Reg instead...) Very good feedback comments of yours here: --- gazita2002 wrote: > > - In samatha, panna knows kusala as kusala, akusala as akusala as > > concepts. Like now. > > A. don't understand this. I thought that the panna dev in samatha > knew a/kusala as realities and knew them from ea other. I thought > panna had to know them like this so that right samatha would dev. > Can you give more explanation please Sarah. .... S: Simply, as I understand, if it’s not the reality being experienced, then it is a concept. Like now, just as Ken H explained (along with his other right track comments about 'the average Joe'in #49032). There maybe useful reflection on awareness, metta, anger or any other kusala or akusala state, but if it’s not awareness of the characteristic, then it’s a concept at this moment. So in samatha, the panna developed does not know kusala states as realities. This can only be by the development of satipatthana. Even when we say that in samatha development, panna understands what calm is and how it can be attained, when the hindrances arise, what the jhana factors are, how the hindrances are overcome by the jhana factors and so one, it’s conceptual right understanding and awareness. Of course, there are many kinds of concepts (see CMA) and ‘degrees’ of thinking with awareness about them. As I mentioned, we also discussed meanings of nimitta, kinds of concepts and how the visible object appearing now, when there is not direct understanding of the characteristic, is a nimitta of visible object, like an ‘impression’ left behind while waving a fire stick or a sparkler (kind of firework we give to children). Only when there are moments of satipatthana is there right understanding of paramattha dhammas as realities. ..... > > - levitation (for Ken H & Steve).....even a yogi can levitate > because of > > the cittas, not necessarily pure in anyway....anything possible. > Access > > concentration is a very highly developed level of samatha, but no > refs > > with regard to levitation given > > A. ummm - levitation eh? maybe if you two become proficient at it, > you could levitate your way up here. Its a bit of a 'dry arguement', > in terms of dhamma discussions, here. Glad to hear the Cooran w/e > went well. ..... S: I hope the others add anything further. We had the coldest day on record (or was it an August record, KenH?) and a little levitation up to your warm climate would have been useful. [For the Americans who could relate better to my very rough description of our trip as being like going down the coast from San Fran to San Diego (Ken H’s home), Azita lives somewhere down in Mexico.....a long way further on]. .... > > - 'If there is no contemplation of reality (now or in the past), > there > > cannot be patisambhida (of all ariyans) because it's just in the > book'/ > > Num found the reference for A.Sujin's comment in the Patisambhida > Magga. I > > think the 5 conditions given are: > > > > a) attending to enlightenment > > b) pariyatti > > c) listening > > d) questioning > > e) previous effort (viriya) > > A. a] seems like the odd one out - how does one 'attend to > enlightenment'? .... S: Yes, I don’t follow this one either.....Num was reading out from the Thai text and translating as he went. Perhaps he, Tep or Nina can find it. It was in the first chapter near the very beginning of the text. I’m looking in the English translation but can’t find it. (Sukin or Num, perhaps you can clarify it next week if need be and give the exact ref). The 5 causes referred to are ‘atthikamma’ or some similar term if I recall....:-/ ..... > thanx in advance, > patience, courage and good cheer .... S: I’m very glad to see you following the summaries (very cryptic , I know). Look f/w to any more. Metta, Sarah ======== 49093 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok2 sukinderpal Dear Sarah, Herman, Jon, Betty, all, Sarah wrote: - Herman's question on how citta experiencing rupa can know it's same rupa experienced by previous cittas. Sukin valliantly took up Herman's 'cause' and good qus on this...because the Buddha knew and taught the details:- /, otherwise it's 'I' :-/, understanding the difference between the Buddha's knowledge and others :-/....what else, Sukin? I remember only vaguely how the discussion went and there were some thoughts that arose later on, so what I say will be a mixture of these. Jon brought up the question and I related this to the 17 citta per rupa theory, and so there were some diversions. :-/ For example I asked to the effect, "Why 17?" To this K. Sujin rightly responded by suggesting that if the theory stated that it was 7 or 5 instead of 17, the same `questioning' would occur. So since it was the Buddha who gave this figure, we should just accept it. I said that I did not question it, which of course does not mean that I attach any great importance to the particular figure. Betty suggested that when the panna was developed enough, then the proof would happen. But I was not particularly interested in the kind of proof that is projected into the future. I wanted to be convinced on the `intellectual' level, now! I therefore wanted an explanation, perhaps, in terms of each citta in the series being exactly as it is and how each one of them *must* have the same rupa as object. I understand why a rupa must arise *before* sense cognition in order that it might become the object, and from this one can at least infer that rupas lasts `longer' than citta. But I also thought that this was not enough to convince Herman, and ended up having to conclude that all that is needed is for Herman to read and have more faith in the Abhidhamma. ;-) On the original question of "how citta experiencing rupa can know it's same rupa experienced by previous cittas", my answer is that it doesn't! Citta in a series knows only the object. It does not `understand'. The mode of `knowing' of citta is different from panna. It is the latter which performs the function of understanding. The level of this understanding is accumulated and there is no limit to this, the maximum degree being that of a Sammasambuddha. So yes, if the Buddha says that it is 17 moments of citta per rupa, then it must be so!! ;-) Thank you Sarah, Jon, Chris, for coming over to Bkk. and allowing for a few hours of excellent discussions, the level of which is so much higher than the Saturday discussion us frivolous Bangkokians usually maintain. I had wanted to suggest to both of you to now come and live in Bkk instead of Hkk. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 49094 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: Anatta, Kamma and the Law gazita2002 hello Herman, you ask: > How does a Buddhist (especially a legal beagle of Buddhist persuasion) > reconcile the notion of individual responsibility, with the notions of > anatta and kamma, which imply an absence of individual agency (the > ability to act outside of prevailing conditions)? > A. IMO a good buddhist would abide by the laws of the country in which he/she is employed and also by the conditions of his/her contract with his employer. it would not go down too well if he said in court: 'well, your Honour, as there is no you, no me, if fact all of this is only a concept and therefore 'we' are wasting our time.......' or something like this. I would think, Herman, that having these notions of anatta and kamma, would aid that person in carrying out his job no more and possibly no less than if he did'nt have the notions. He could possibly be a bit more relaxed about the situation, hard to know really. that's just my 2 cents worth :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 49095 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James, (Nina and Howard), Are you back in Egypt? If so, I hope you get on well in your new school. Apologies for delays ....others have already replied, I know. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah and All, > > Sarah: James & Ken H, glad to read your continued discussion on metta > and 'clinging to metta'. In the context of our discussion with Herman, > it was clinging to having more metta and other wholesome states in the > future as he said...to being a better person and so on. This is not > the development of metta as he explained. Yes, clinging can be to > anything now... > > James: What exactly is wrong with wanting to have more metta and > wanting to be a better person? Aren't those wholesome desires? ... S: I think that whenever we're concerned with ourselves, wanting anything for 'me', whether it be more prosperity, more holidays, more metta, more 'better person' qualities, then we can test out that at these times we don't have anyone else's interests at heart which of course is what the brahma viharas do. When there is metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha (the 4 brahma viharas), we think of others' welfare, others' difficulties, good fortune and so on without any thought of our own wants and needs. This doesn't mean there can never be thoughts about oneself with wholesome cittas, but even when there is understanding or wise reflections on the dhamma for example, I find it hard to see where any thoughts of oneself come in. Appreciating the value of kindness or generosity is not the same as wanting to be a better person.... .... > > As for myself, I usually do metta meditation while riding the exercise > bike. <...>>Am I clinging to metta? .... S: I think we can only answer this for ourselves when there's awareness. .... > > Here's another instance where I didn't intend to generate metta: One > day I was in a very depressed and upset mood. <...> > For a fleeting > moment, I felt extreme metta for that teacher who had betrayed me, for > the school and its students, for the taxi driver, and for everyone > else who was struggling in the heat of Cairo. ... S: I like your story, James. It shows how fleeting and anatta mental states are. Dosa and then metta without any special action. Just by its own conditions and because we understand its value, appreciation of the quality when it arises. So when there was the metta for the teacher, you felt friendly to her and no more thought at that time of betrayal and what you'd suffered. We can see how the dosa harms us and how 'light' and 'free' the metta is at such a time. ... I felt this metta > spontaneously, I assume, because my ego couldn't handle the pressure > anymore and it self destructed- temporarily. The feeling of metta > didn't last and it was quickly replaced with negative feelings again. > But, I wasn't as angry or upset as before. I had seen the light so > to speak. Afterwards, I stopped thinking about the teacher who had > betrayed me, stopped feeling like a victim, and felt some compassion > for her. Is this clinging to metta? Or is this instance of metta > better because it was spontaneous? .... S: This is a very good example...spontaneous metta and compassion in daily life without any trying or forcing. As you said, it doesn't last and there are bound to be negative feelings again, but we can learn to see the difference. Nina and Howard were talking about understanding and sila or other wholesome states. In Bangkok, a couple of friends talked about difficult experiences at work with people and their bad kamma results. Other examples were given, However, when we appreciate more that the kamma results are just these fleeting moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and body-consciousness and that all the real problems lie in the attachments, aversion and ignorance when we follow our long, long stories about our experiences, I think such appreciation, however theoretical in the beginning, is a condition for more metta,karuna or even upekkha (rather than dosa) when we feel we're being badly treated and so on. I hope to hear your further comments. ......... > > As for myself, I don't see a big difference and I think that metta > needs to be generated through metta meditation. We can't sit around > and wait for metta to arise spontanously, it doesn't happen that > often. Just some thoughts. .... S: It may not arise as often as we like or think it should, but it definitely grows when we understand its value and what the real causes of our problems are, I think. There can be metta anytime at all......even now as we write. Metta, Sarah ======== 49096 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 sukinderpal Dear Sarah, Herman, all, > - consider a depression pill as food, Herman. Lots on whether rupas can > affect moods and the arising of kusala cittas...Sukin's 'baby'....:)Less > dosa and more metta or less dosa and more attachment? :-) I still don't remember exactly what point I was trying to make, but perhaps I will as I write along ;-). Actually when the point was brought up, immediately I thought about my discussion with Lisa just few days earlier. At that time Lisa was talking about her `ear' condition and about regularly taking a pill to keep her balance. She started to talk about her doctor's explanation about how her `physical' condition tied to her mental. I reacted quickly by reminding her about how this was not related to the need to know citta and the roots, both of which can and must be known with insight, no matter what physical or other mental conditions acted as influence. The psychologist's explanation, whatever it is, is just another story which when we hear and don't know better, will likely cause us to self justification or even pity. And of course I hadn't read Herman's post yet at the time, so I was leading the discussion to a direction I wanted to. I am sure that many `cheating dhammas' arose interspersed with wrong view. :-/ It showed me how fragile `intellectual' understanding is. I can't just give the excuse that I had a particular point to make and that the desire to make my point was too `strong', after all I did try to defend my position by bring up the example of the Arahatta didn't I? :-/ Anyway, intellectually I have no doubt about this mind/body relationship. However, and this must have been my point,(?) there is a distinction to be made between this fact and the idea that `one' can control any particular conditions. One can mistake the "problem" as being in the `rupa' instead of any `akusala' which is conditioned to arise as a result of intake of these rupas, whether food or medication. For example one may control one's eating habit with the idea of not wanting akusala to arise or even expecting `clarity' of mind. But what if there is no accumulated sati and panna? Will the less food in the belly help condition by natural decisive support condition, more mindfulness or would it lobha? This does not of course mean that we do not `try' to control what we take in, or even consult doctors and psychiatrists. But we do need to remember that ultimately the purpose of our study is to develop panna and other kusala, and that would be in any situation and circumstance. With this in mind, the danger of treading on either side of the Middle Way is lessened, I think. Thanks to you and all present that day, for putting me on track. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 49097 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beauty and siila. nilovg Dear Robert, You are right. The sutta where cause and effect are explained: D.N. III, 333: The Marks of the Superman. All the kusala kamma done by the Bodhisatta that conditioned his bodily features. '...Whereas in whatsoever former birth...he took on mighty enterprise in all good things...' Nina. op 22-08-2005 00:05 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: I can't see where it describes > beauty. I think rather it is defining the causes for beauty to arise. 49098 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought nilovg Hi Tep, I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. When there is true paññaa all cetasikas are balanced, no worry. I cannot analyse this article, because I try to work ahead with Vis. My India trip is so soon now. Nina. op 20-08-2005 21:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance > each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). 49099 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:01am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 185 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 185 [C. CLASSIFICATION OF THE AGGREGATES] ***** N: Thus far, the Visuddhimagga explained in detail all dhammas included in the five khandhas. The Visuddhimagga refers to the Suttanta method (Suttanta-Bhaajaniya, or classification in the Suttanta) and the Abhidhamma method (Abhidhamma-Bhaajaniya or classification in the Abhidhamma) of explanation of the Dhamma. In the Suttas the words by which the Buddha analysed the events of life were more easily understood by the average audience. He led people in a gentle and compassionate way to the understanding of the four noble Truths, using words that touched their hearts. He spoke about birth, old age, sickness and death, he showed the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas. In the Abhidhamma method the truth is explained by way of ultimate realities. The Buddha taught the relationship between dhammas by way of manifold conditions. The detailed explanation of the khandhas, the elements and the aayatanas (sense fields) always has a practical purpose: the development of understanding leading to the end of dukkha. Also in the Suttas we find the Abhidhamma method: the Suttas point to ultimate realities, and these are the objects of satipa.t.thaana. The many classifications in the Suttas and in the Abhidhamma are not given for academical reasons, they have nothing to do with scholasticism. Their precision avoids the endless confusion people may have in their daily lives with regard to different dhammas, such as kusala and akusala dhammas that are cause and dhammas that are results. Moreover, the classifications also help memorizing that was necessary for the faithful preserving of the teachings by oral tradition. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals with different aspects of the five khandhas, and it also shows the purpose of this treatment: (Vis. XIV, 210). The purpose is the development of right understanding of naama and ruupa that can eradicate wrong view and all other defilements. ****** Text Vis.:185. The foregoing section, firstly, is that of the detailed explanation of the aggregates according to the Abhidhamma-Bhaajaniya [of the Vibha"nga]. But the aggregates have been given in detail by the Blessed One [in the Suttanta-Bhaajaniya] in this way: 'Any materiality whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: all together in the mass and in the gross is called the materiality aggregate. Any feeling whatever ... Any perception whatever ... Any formations whatever ... Any consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present ... all that together in the mass and in the gross is called the consciousness aggregate' (Vbh.1-9; cf. M.iii,17). ****** N: The ŒDispeller of Delusion¹, the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the second Book of the Abhidhamma, (Classification of the Aggregates, Ch I) explains the meaning of the word khandha. It can be heap (raasi) or category. It states: <...therefore the aggregates (khandhaa) should be understood as having the characteristic of a heap. It is also permissible to say in the sense of a portion (ko.t.thaasa).> It is explained that the materiality heap is classified in eleven ways and As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: The ŒDispeller of Delusion¹ explains Œin the mass¹ (abhisa.myuuhitvaa) as having brought together, and Œin the gross¹ (abhisankipitvaa) as made compact. This means: heaped together. It states: ¹And this shows all materiality as the materiality aggregate by its being heaped together under the characteristic of being molested.¹ It is explained that ruupa is molested or disturbed by cold, heat, hunger, thirst etc. Each of the five khandhas includes respectively different rupas, feelings, perceptions, formations (or activities) and cittas, but the Buddha classified them as just five khandhas. One khandha is rupa-khandha and four khandhas are nama- khandhas. Thus, the paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and rupa are classified as five khandhas. Each of the khandhas is classified in eleven ways, as past, future, present, etc. These ways will be dealt with in detail in the following sections. As to the eleven ways, the Visuddhimagga refers to the Book of Analysis that uses both the method of the Suttanta and the method of the Abhidhamma. ***** Nina. 49100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. nilovg Hi Mike, op 22-08-2005 02:16 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: Any texts > relating to the same thing regarding 'mental-data craving'? Otherwise this > pertains only to paramattha dhammas and not concepts I think. ------ N: Aren't we clinging to persons? That is kaama tanhaa, different from clinging to jhaanas. As Tep explained, it falls under clinging through the mind-door. It arises on account of what we see, hear, etc. BTW, you gave me a good pointer just before I went away and so I did not keep it. It was about realizing one's cittas. You said rather than paying attention to one's own intuition, you would think of the Buddha's wisdom with which he taught about it. I do not have you litteral saying. It makes me think: there is always creeping in: I know, I notice, failing to remember that any understanding is not mine, but due to listening to the Buddha's teaching. It is just a conditioned dhamma, but I forget. It happens often when I notice clinging or aversion. Besides, I take these for self. Also, when we remember the Buddha's wisdom it is also a moment of samatha in between other realities: recollection of the Buddha. Nina. 49101 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok2 christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Thursday's: > > - the meaning of nimitta - impression of visible object, not > characteristic (v.hard - I need to listen on this) > Hello Sarah, and all, With regard to the Pali Term: Nimitta, particularly in the context of samadhi - these posts containing links to articles, by Dmytro on E-sangha may be of some interest:: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=17871 metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49102 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:57am Subject: Ajahn Brahmavamso (Re: e-card from Bangkok 3) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > - Jhana, meditation, what other teachers say - some are bhikkhus of 30 years and comments made here are by some of us are a > minority view. 'Never mind who says what!'. Meaning of samatha, samatha with vipassana when understanding this moment vs > following a method. Prescriptive/Descriptive when we read 'Develop'....not sure if we agreed, did we Chris or Ivan or > Sukin? (Chris, pls add the Brahmavamso comments anytime for further discussion too) > Hello all, On the plane over to Bangkok, to pass the time, I put what I absent- mindedly thought was a Bhikkhu Bodhi disc on my mp3 player. It turned out to be one by Ajahn Brahmavamso that I had never listened to before. It contained the complete Dhamma talks given by Ajahn Brahmavamso at a nine day meditation Retreat held in 1997 in Perth, Western Australia. Day 1: The Way of Serenity; The Method for Jhana Day 2: Overcoming the Hindrances to Jhana - Part A; Overcoming the Hindrances to Jhana - Part B Day 3: Mindfulness: The Gatekeeper - Part A; Mindfulness: The Gatekeeper - Part B Day 4: Freshen Up with Variety - Part A; Freshen Up with Variety - Part B Day 5: Empowering your Meditation - Part A; Empowering your Meditation - Part B Day 6: The Four Focuses of Mindfulness - Part A; The Four Focuses of Mindfulness - Part B Day 7: The Mirage of Self - Part A; The Mirage of Self - Part B Day 8: A Travelogue through the Jhanas - Part A; A Travelogue through the Jhanas - Part B Day 9: Bringing it all back home - Part A; Bringing it all back home - Part B I guess one of the major impressions I took from listening to many of his talks, was that he seemed to simply be following what I read in the Suttas ... no having to think 'well, yes, the suttas say That, but what the Buddha really meant was .... or 'well, yes, the Buddha said That, but he was merely speaking to people who were already doing that and so used it as an example - he wasn't saying WE should do it' ... or 'well, yes, the Buddhas said That, but he was speaking to people who were "bhikkhus", "noble ones" etc. and didn't mean the suttas for us' ... It is true that one of the constant 'needs' I have is for a method to follow, which usually conditions teasing in Bangkok - but 'I y'am what I y'am' ... So, it could be said that accidentally putting this CD into the player has led to considerable perturbation - and I wonder what others think of taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they say .... And has anyone else studied/followed/listened to the teachings of Ajahn Brahmavamso? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49103 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 255- Attachment/lobha (h) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Nina book says: [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha is extremely hard to eradicate because it has been accumulated, also in past lives; it is deeply rooted. Even when we have studied the Dhamma and we have heard about the dangers of lobha we still want pleasant things for ourselves. We want possessions and we are attached to people. At the moment of attachment we do not realize that all the things we desire are susceptible to change, that they cannot last. ***** Sarah wrote: [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Nina, Sarah, this is a good approach to dig up dhamma. That is short presentation. When long, maitenace of interest would be lost as in case of my messages, :-)). Lobha is extremely heard to eradicate. This is very true. Even when jhana is attained there still exist lobha. Just before going into jhana, where there is no lobha, lobha dictates to go into jhana in one or another way. This is a point. I just mean for non-ariyas. Then the book(Nina) says 'because it has been accumulated'. This is the point where I have an interest. My questions are 1. what is accumulation? 2. is there a single dhamma unit lobha arises and passes away? 3. or are many many lobha dhamma-s accumulated (in a container_citta?) 4. in which way is it deeply rooted and where? Continuation of discussion: The fact that we have studied just means we know as we heard/read. This is not what we realized. That is why we still want pleasant things for ourselves. It is true that at the time of attachment (wanting pleasant things), there is no understanding or realization that things are subjected to change and do not last long. I will be looking forward to hearing answers for my questions. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Sarah or Nina may answer these questions. 49104 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 497 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are 1. ditthi samyojana or 'fetter of self-identity' 2. viicikicchaa samyojana or 'fetter of suspicion' 3. siilabbataparaamaasa samyojana or 'fetter of ritualistic belief' 4. kaamaraaga samyojana or 'fetter of sensuality' 5. patigha samyojana or 'fettre of ill-will' 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fettre of desire of fine-materil being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' 8. maana samyojana or 'fetter of conceit' 9. uddhacca samyojana or 'fetter of unsettleness' 10.avijjaa samyojana or 'fetter of ignorance' or abhidhamma says there are 10 fetters. They are 1. ditthi samyojana (fetter of self-identity) 2. silabbataparaamaasa samyojana (fetter of ritualistic wrong-belief) 3. vicikicchaa samyojana (fetter of suspicion or doubt) 4. issaa samyojana (fetter of jealousy or envy) 5. macchariya samyojana (fetter of stinginess) 6. kaamaraaga samyojana (fetter of sensuality) 7. patigha samyojana (fetter of aggression or ill-will) 8. bhavaraaga samyojana (fetter of desire on existence) 9. maana samyojana (fetter of conceit) 10.avijjaa samyojana (fetter of ignorance) In both lists include all akusala dhamma. When both lists are compiled these are basic dhamma of these 2 sets of samyojana or fetters. 1. lobha(kaamaraaga, ruuparaaga, aruuparaaga// kaamaraaga, bhavaraaga) 2. dosa (patigha) 3. maana (maana) 4. ditthi (ditthi, silabbataparaamaasa) 5. vicikicchaa (vicikicchaa) 6. uddhacca (uddhacca) 7. issaa (issaa) 8. macchariya (macchariya) 9. moha (avijjaa) These 9 cetasika dhammas behave as fetters or samyojana. Now we know what (who/which) are samyojana. 1. Where do they arise? 2. When do they arise? 3. Why do they arise? 4. How do they arise? 5. Whose are they? a). Where do they arise? These 10 samyojanas or fetters arise at 1. eye (cakkhaayatana) 2. eye-object (ruupaayatana) or visual object 3. ear (sotaayatana) 4. ear-object (saddaayatana) or auditory object 5. nose (ghanaayatana) 6. nose-object(gandhaayatana) or olfactory object 7. tongue (jivhaayatana) 8. tongue-object(rasaayatana) or gustatory object 9. body (kaayaayatana) 10.body-object(photthabbaayatana)/tangible object 11.mind (manaayatana) 12.mind-object(dhammaayatana)/ thinkable object b). When do samyojana arise? When one of '6 external sense bases or bahiddha ayatanas that serve as object for the mind' arises. c). Why these 10 ayatana arise? Because they have not been eradicated and because 6 external sense bases are inappropriately attended. d). How do these 10 samyojana arise? They arise unnoticed, instantaneously and overwhelmingly. e). Whose are they? No one owns any samyojana. Samyojanas are dhamma. Dhamma are not self. They are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49106 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Dhamma Friends, >There are 10 fetters or 10 sa.myojanas or samyojana dhammas. They are .... Joop wrote: Dear Htoo, In this message and in 49042 you explain the fetters as mentioned in the Suttas: … 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of fine-material being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' .. Joop: It's of course not the first time I read about the fetters. And many times I think about this two: I don't have this fetters, I don't have the desire of fine-material being or non-material being. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Joop. I understand that. But are you sure you do not have 'the desire of fine-material being' and 'the desire of non-material being'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: This is was I think about this life. But I have also read an explanation that these fetters refer to the desire being reborn in one of the higher (of the 31) realms. And again I think: I don't have the desire of being reborn in general and not in these higher realms more specific. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you sure that 'you do not have the desire of being reborn in general'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: So my first question is: is it according the Teachings possible that a worldling (like me) never have had these two fetters? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When one already has the fetter of desire to be reborn this already means that it may well be anywhere in 31 realms. Abhidhamma's samyojana say there is bhavaraaga samyojana. First I will answer with respect to Abhidhamma and then with respect to Sutta. Abhidhamma just says 'bhavaraaga samyojana' or the fetter of desire to be reborn in general. This is part of your expression. That is you said 'in general' before you added 'in these higher realms more specific'. I will repeat that when one has the desire to be reborn this already include 'to be reborn in kaama loka, ruupa loka, aruupa loka'. But latter 2 are so subtle and may or may not be seen by ordinary un- learned people. Abhidhamma's view is the same. That is the desire to be reborn. May I ask you a question (not a real question)? Htoo: Do you want to die right now? Joop's possible answer: No, Htoo. I still do not want to die now. (this shows bhavaraaga). or alternative Yes, Htoo. I now want to die. (this shows bhavaraaga to better rebirth). Htoo: This shows that 'you want to die now. Because you do not like your current life but want another better life. And so you want to end it. This is also bhavaraaga. Sutta: There are 2 fetters. Ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga. You may argue that you do not have these 2. Suttas are sometimes difficulty to understand and there are a lot of repeatitions. Here I do not have any idea why 'bhavaraaga' is divided into 2 fetters. fetters are to tie. These desire tie beings to loka. When one do not know anything about rupa brahma and arupa brahma how should he have these 2 fetters of ruuparaaga and aruparaaga. I have already replied you in abhidhamma form. Maybe Sutta experts will be able to explain you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: And my second question is one of Buddhistic method: is it necessary first getting these two desires so that it is possible to release them or get released? Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When look from abhidhamma point of view this is not that right. Because there already have these 2 fetters. When there are already why should one need to get these 2 desire? With Metta, Htoo Naing 49107 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:22am Subject: Satipatthaana (17) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A r) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ ++1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body c) 09 Buddha's Attributes d) 30 feeling-contemplations e) 09 Buddha's Attributes f) 51 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 Buddha-Attributes h) 108 dhamma-contemplations h) 108 dhamma-contemplations 1. 25 hindrance-contemplations 2. 15 aggregate-contemplations 3. 36 sense-base-contemplations 4. 28 enlightenment-factor-contemplations 5. 04 Noble-Truth-contemplations ----- ++108 dhamma-contemplations These 4 Noble-Truth-contemplations are just summary and the details are in 'saccaanupassanaa' or Noble-Truth-contemplations. a) to h) and i) to p) are exactly the same and actually this is repeatition. a) = i) = 9 B-A(Buddha's Attributes_araham, sammasambuddho..bhagava) b) = j) = 261 body-contemplations c) = k) = 9 BA d) = l) = 30 feeling-contemplations e) = m) = 9 BA f) = n) = 51consciousness-contemplations g) = o) = 9 BA h) = p) = 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 BA ( 9 Buddha's Attributes_Araham, sammasambuddho,...,bhagavaa) r) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) So there will have been a) 009 b) 261 c) 009 d) 030 e) 009 f) 051 g) 009 h) 108 i) 009 j) 261 k) 009 l) 030 m) 009 n) 051 o) 009 p) 108 q) 009 r) 099 ------ ++1080 There are 108 beads in a string of 'bead-counter'. So after a complete section there will have been 2 roundsof satipatthaana and 1 detail contemplations on Noble Truth. This is for memorization and not for satipatthaana meditation. When this method of bead-counting is done daily there will achieve the necessary ground for practising 'satipatthaana', which is the only way leading to nibbana. r) 99 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truths. Contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) 1. 12 contemplations on 'dukkha saccaa' or 'suffering the truth' 2. 30 contemplations on 'samudaya sacca' or 'cause the truth' 3. 30 contemplations on 'nirodha sacca' or 'cessation the truth' 4. 27 contemplations on 'magga sacca' or 'Path the truth' ----- +++99 contemplations on Noble Truth or saccaanupassanaa 1. 12 contemplations on dukkha sacca or 'suffering the truth' 1. this is jati (birth) & it is suffering 2. this is jaraa(ageing)& it is suffering 3. this is marana(death)& it is suffering 4. this is soka (sorrow)& it is suffering 5. this is parideva(lamentation)& it is suffering 6. this is dukkha (physical pain)& it is suffering 7. this is domanassa(mental displeasure)& it is suffering 8. this is upayaasaa(despair)& it is suffering 9. this is appiyehi-sampayogo(association with the dislike)& suffering 10.this is piyehi-vippayogo(dissociation with the like)& suffering 11.this is yampiccham-na-labhati(non-achievement of the wanted)& suff. 12.this is pancupadaanakkhandhaa(5-clinging aggregates)& suffering 2. 30 contemplations on samudaya sacca or 'cause the truth' There are 10 causes in oneself. Sometimes 10 causes in others' selves are perceived as dhamma (cause or samudaya). And sometimes 10 causes in both oneself & others' selves are perceived or contemplated. So there are 30 contemplations on causes. Basically there are 10 causes. These 10 causes are kaama-tanha, bhava-tanha, vibhava-tanha that arise at 1. ajjhatta ayatana or internal sense-base 1. cakkh-ayatana (eye) 2. sota-ayatana (ear) 3. ghana-ayatana (nose) 4. jivha-ayatana (tongue) 5. kaaya-ayatana (body) 6. mana-ayatana (mind) 2. bahiddha ayatana or external sense-base 1. rupa-ayatana (visual sense-base) 2. sadda-ayatana (sound) 3. gandha-ayatana (smell) 4. rasa-ayatana(taste) 5. photthabba-ayatana (touch-sense) 6. dhamma-ayatana (mind-object). 3. panca-vinnaana cittas and mano-vinnaana cittas 1.cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-sense-consciousness 2. sota-vinnaana citta or ear-sense-consciousness 3. ghana-vinnaana citta or nose-sense-consciousness 4. jivha-vinnaana citta or tongue-sense-consciousness 5. kaaya-vinnaana citta or body-sense-consciousness 6. mano-vinnaana citta or mind-sense-consciousness 4. salasamphassa or 6 contacts 1. cakkhu-samphassa or eye-contact 2. sota-samphassa or ear-contact 3. ghaana-samphassa or nose-contact 4. jivha-samphassa or tongue-contact 5. kaaya-samphassa or body-contact 6. mano-samphassa or mind-contact 5. salaasamphassajaa vedana or 'contact-born feeling' 1. cakkhu-samphassajaa vedana or eye-contact-born feeling 2. sota-samphassajaa vedana or ear-contact-born feeling 3. ghaana-samphassajaa vedanaa or nose-contact-born feeling 4. jivhaa-samphassajaa vedanaa or tongue-contact-born feeling 5. kaaya-samphassajaa vedana or body-contact-born feeling 6. mano-samphassajaa vedanaa or mind-contact-born feeling 6. salaasannaa or 6 perceptions 1. rupa-sannaa or visual perception 2. sadda-sannaa or auditory perception 3. gandha-sanna or olfactory perception 4. rasa-sanna or gustatory perception 5. photthabba-sanna or tactile perception 6. dhamma-sannaa or thought perception 7. salasancetanaa or 6 volitions/ 6 formations 1. rupa-sam-cetana or visual volition 2. sadda-sam-cetana or auditory volition 3. gandha-sam-cetana or olfactory volition 4. rasa-sam-cetana or gustatory volition 5. photthabba-sam-cetanaa or tactile volition 6. dhamma-sam-cetana or mind-object volition 8. salaatanhaa or 6 tanhaa or 6 craving 1. ruupa-tanhaa or craving at visual object 2. sadda-tanhaa or craving at auditory object 3. gandha-tanhaa or craving at olfactory object 4. rasa-tanhaa or craving at gustatory object 5. photthabba-tanha or craving at tactile object 6. dhamma-tanhaa or craving at mind-object 9. salaavitakka or 6 vitakka or 6 initial-thinking (induction) 1. rupa-vitakka or initial-thinking of visual-object 2. sadda-vitakka or initial-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vitakka or initial-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vitakka or initial-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vitakka or initial-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vitakka or initial-thinking of mind-object 10. salaavicaara or 6 vicaara or 6 sustained-thinking (maintenance) 1. rupa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of visual object 2. sadda-vicaara or sustained-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vicaara or sustained-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vicaara or sustained-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vicaara or sustained-thinking of mind-object. Tanha arises at these 10 areas. There are 3 kinds of tanha and they are kaama-tanha or craving for lust, bhava-tanha or craving for existence, and vibhava-tanha or craving for non-existence. These 3 tanhas arise at these 10 places. They are 'cause the truth' or samudaya sacca and they are nothing more than that. They are just dhamma and not a self or atta. 3. 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth' Again 10 contemplations are on self, 10 are on others and another 10 are on 'both self and others' selves'. So there are 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth'. Suffering arise because of craving arising at 10 places. And at these 10 places, all suffering cease to arise as there is no craving at these 10 places (for arahats). 4. 27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 4. 3 contemplations on right action 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration ----- ++27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 1. the knowledge of suffering 2. the knowledge of cause of suffering 3. the knowledge of cessation of suffering 4. the knowledge of Path leading to cessation of suffering 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 1. thinking non-lust or nekkhamma-sankappa 2. thinking non-aversion or abyaapaada-sankappa 3. thinking non-torture or avihimsa-sankappa 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 1. not telling lie or 'musaa-vadaa veramani' 2. not telling divisive speech or 'pisuna-vaacaa veramani' 3. not telling harsh speech or 'pharussa-vaacaa veramani' 4. not telling non-sense speech or 'samphappalaapa veramani' 4. 3 contemplations on right action 1. not killing or 'paanaatipataa veramani' 2. not stealing or 'adinnaadaanaa veramani' 3. not abusing lust or 'kaamesu-micchaacaara veramani' 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 1. avoidance of miccha-ajiiva or wrong-livelihood (living of ariyas) 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 1. mindfulness contemplating on body 2. mindfulness contemplating on feeling 3. mindfulness contemplating on consciousness 4. mindfulness contemplating on dhamma 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration 1. 1st jhaana concentration (concentration freeing hindrances) 2. 2nd jhaana concentration 3. 3rd jhaana concentration 4. 4th jhaana concentration (all aruupa jhaana concentration) This has been done by myself. I mean the calculation of 99. I create this to be 99 so that it can be merged with 2 courses of satipatthaana and 9 courses of Buddhaanupassanaa making altogether 1080. Just to memorize the data. For actual data, please refer to texts of different and various sources. Again in 99 saccaanupassana, I just left 2 things. One is dukkha- saccaanupassanaa. It has to be contemplated on 'own' on 'others' and on 'both own & others'. Another thing I left is magga- saccaanupassanaa. It also has to be contemplated on 'own' on 'others' and on 'both own & others'. If they are added in number then there will be more than '99' and calculation would be very awkward. One more thing is that in all 4 saccaanupassanaa there are 3 extra contemplations. They are contemplation on 'origination', contemplation on 'dissolution' and contemplation on 'both origination & dissolution'. So far all the data of 1080 have been explained. But no one has provoke any questions yet. There are many things left to be discussed. These will be continued soon. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49108 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Kamma and the Law upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Herman) - Azita, I'm addressing myself here to the part of your answer I quote below, and not to Herman's question, to which I previously contributed my two cents. In a message dated 8/22/05 4:31:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: > How does a Buddhist (especially a legal beagle of Buddhist persuasion) > reconcile the notion of individual responsibility, with the notions of > anatta and kamma, which imply an absence of individual agency (the > ability to act outside of prevailing conditions)? > A. IMO a good buddhist would abide by the laws of the country in which he/she is employed and also by the conditions of his/her contract with his employer. ======================= I would say that a good person, Buddhist or not, would abide (or not) by the laws of that country depending on what those laws are. There are and have been some countries whose laws should not only not be abided by but should be resisted by moral people. I have no doubt that you agree with this, and you simply weren't considering evil edicts of evil nation-states in your reply. It is wrong to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" when what is claimed to be due Caesar truly isn't. I am just adding this, because I think it is a point worth making. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49109 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - N: > I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. T: It is just a name. Once we know what the translator meant, we should have no problem. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. When there is true > paññaa all cetasikas are balanced, no worry. > I cannot analyse this article, because I try to work ahead with Vis. My > India trip is so soon now. > Nina. > op 20-08-2005 21:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance > > each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). 49110 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger onco111 Dear Tep, You ask: "Luang Pu were above anger -- everybody who knew him knows about this. Don't you think that the problem about control of anger is below his level?" The story was not written for Luang Pu's benefit. > However, I do not see any "important questions about awareness and > about control (including some that may be uncomfortable)" as you > have stated. 1. Anger is a very gross emotion, and when people are angry, they usually are quite aware of it. And yet, that "being aware" doesn't seem to help. Why not? 2. An instruction to "be aware of your anger" frequently intensifies anger in the hearer -- similar to the angry guy in the story. Why is that? 3. In an instruction along the lines of "Do this-and-that to gain control over the arising and passing away of such-and-such", who implements the instruction? 4. Why would a story about anger management techniques arouse such anger? Con mucho karuna, Dan 49111 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:22am Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) onco111 Hi Frank, I agree with you that Luang Pu deftly handled the inquiry, as you explain: "The way the question is phrased, 'how does one cut off anger', the inquirer seems to anticipate the method would involve a strong will and forceful measures to eliminate anger. Luang Pu's response immediately dispels any notion of forceful countermeasure or any kind of repression, suppression, smoke & mirrors diversion that temporarily averts anger without addressing the underlying cause." However, he doesn't describe any *method* for dissolution of anger. He simply describes what he sees happening: "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." He does not say: "...There's only being aware of it in time. Direct you attention to it, observe it with bare awareness, and then it will disappear on its own." No method. No anger management technique. The angry person story illustrates what happens when the descriptive "being aware" is mis- read as an imperative "be aware". Luang Pu's statement draws a clear distinction between "path" and "method", not just between a method that relies on "strong will and forceful measures" vs. a method that is "sublime and elegantly stated." Deep, penetrative, liberating insight involves breaking the fetter of silabbataparamasa, or the belief that liberation can result from any rituals, rites, rules, or methods. Metta, Dan > His method is sublime and elegantly stated, completely in accordance with > the Buddhadhamma, but expressed through the particular nuance of his > practice and personality. He points out how there isn't a real Self that can > just will anger out of existence, or beat it down with force. Instead. Anger > is dissolved by seeing reality clearly, penetrating into the four noble > truths, seeing the cause of anger and erroneous perceptions and mental > formations that underly the trigger point of anger. Once these causes of > anger are seen as they're happening in real time, the illusion bursts and > anger has no fuel to sustain itself and disappears on its own, gently, > without force, habituating our mindfulness to repeat this method in the > future, nourishing our wisdom. No other anger management method I'm aware of > so directly targets the root cause. The result of faulty anger management is > that the practitioner MAY appear to be very happy and unperturbed by anger > for long periods of time until the repressed pressure bursts and they go > berzerk, leaving a wake of terrified friends and family. > > -fk > > > p.s. My intention is to post a short pithy dhamma verse daily, or have a > friend post it for me if I'm not available for an extended period of time. I > sporadically and selectively read the messages in the forums that this > series is posted, so if you have a question directed to me it's best to CC: > my direct email frank@4... to guarantee a response. 49112 From: "frank" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:01am Subject: dhamma soup for the worldly dhamma_service KYE HO! Listen with joy! Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety. Since worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality! In the transcending of mind's dualities is Supreme vision; In a still and silent mind is Supreme Meditation; In spontaneity is Supreme Activity; And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached. (a verse from Tilopa's instructions to Naropa) 49113 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) upasaka_howard Hi, Dan (and Tep) - In a message dated 8/22/05 11:23:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Hi Frank, I agree with you that Luang Pu deftly handled the inquiry, as you explain: "The way the question is phrased, 'how does one cut off anger', the inquirer seems to anticipate the method would involve a strong will and forceful measures to eliminate anger. Luang Pu's response immediately dispels any notion of forceful countermeasure or any kind of repression, suppression, smoke & mirrors diversion that temporarily averts anger without addressing the underlying cause." However, he doesn't describe any *method* for dissolution of anger. He simply describes what he sees happening: "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." He does not say: "...There's only being aware of it in time. Direct you attention to it, observe it with bare awareness, and then it will disappear on its own." No method. No anger management technique. The angry person story illustrates what happens when the descriptive "being aware" is mis- read as an imperative "be aware". --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that most of us are unable to "decide" to be aware of a particular moment of arising, or about-to-arise, anger. But it is possible to cultivate a general habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises, or is about to arise, and even to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena. Mindfulness can and should be cultivated, I believe. If I thought it could not be, I would abandon the Buddhist enterprise. --------------------------------------- Luang Pu's statement draws a clear distinction between "path" and "method", not just between a method that relies on "strong will and forceful measures" vs. a method that is "sublime and elegantly stated." Deep, penetrative, liberating insight involves breaking the fetter of silabbataparamasa, or the belief that liberation can result from any rituals, rites, rules, or methods. Metta, Dan ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49114 From: limchinkah Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 0:34am Subject: Five Aggregates limchinkah Dear all, I joined this egroup just a few weeks ago and have been folllowing some of the postings quietly with interest. Over the weekend I attended a crash course on Abhidhamma and a question suddenly came to my mind regarding the Five Aggregates (Panca Khandha). The Buddha taught that the human being is made up of five aggregates - Nama (feeling; perception; mental formations and consciousness) and Rupa (matter). i.e. 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) 2. The Aggregate of Consciousness (Vinnana) 3. The Aggregate of Perception (Sanna) 4. The Aggregate of Feeling (Vedana) 5. The Aggregate of Mental Formation (Sankhara) (2) are the cittas (3), (4) and (5) are the cetasikas (52 in all). My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to specifically single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the group of 52 cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? Why couldn't He just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates - ie 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) 2. The Aggregate of Citta 3. The Aggregate of Cetasikas Thank you. with metta, chin kah 49115 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought htoo.naing@... Dear Nina, Tep, Sarah, and all, I am Htoo Naing. I just reply this just to make you know this is my new mail address. One thing. Intellect is not equal to panna. That is [intellect] =/= pannaa. Examples are there are intellectual thieves like online hackers who steal others' bank accounts. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Thanks Jon. It is amazingly large mail box. 2000 Megabytes. htootintnaing@... (JTN) On 22/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > N: > I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. > > T: It is just a name. Once we know what the translator meant, we should > have no problem. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. When there is true > > paññaa all cetasikas are balanced, no worry. > > I cannot analyse this article, because I try to work ahead with Vis. My > > India trip is so soon now. > > Nina. > > op 20-08-2005 21:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance > > > each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). > 49116 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:11am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin, and suttas. nilovg Dear friends, here is our evening reading: < When sati has been developed and paññå has become keener, doubt about the difference between the characteristic of nåma, the reality which experiences an object, and the characteristic of rúpa, such as visible object appearing through eyesense, can be eradicated. But there should be a great deal of patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider and investigate the truth that everything which appears at this moment is dhamma, reality. If sati arises it can be aware of the characteristic of whatever reality is appearing. In the beginning there is still the idea of self. Sati may arise, but there is still a feeling of wanting or trying to understand realities. It is important to notice the difference between the moment of understanding and the moment of clinging to the understanding of realities. We should be aware of our clinging to understanding, otherwise clinging cannot be eradicated. Clinging is the origination of dukkha, and this is the second noble Truth. Clinging is the cause of not knowing the truth of realities. We should know the purpose of listening to the Dhamma. The purpose is not obtaining something for oneself, it is not honour or fame; it is not being admired as a clever person who is full of wisdom. The purpose is knowing oneself, realizing one¹s lack of understanding of the characteristics of realities, one¹s ignorance of, for example, visible object which appears through the eyes. We should remember that what is most precious, so long as we are still alive, is paññå which knows realities as they are. If the Buddha had not taught the way to develop right understanding, we would not be able to be aware of the characteristics of realities. We would, our whole life, continue to see without knowing what the reality of seeing is. Because of the Buddha¹s teaching of Dhamma, people can realize for themselves when sati arises and when there is forgetfulness of realities. Nobody else can tell us whether there is sati or forgetfulness, we can know this only for ourselves. Even when sati arises, the characteristics of realities may not yet be seen as they are. However, sati can arise again and in this way there can gradually be a little more understanding of realities. One can understand that realities are appearing naturally in daily life when there are the appropriate conditions for them, and that also the reality of sati can only arise when there are conditions for it, that its arising cannot be forced. One should remember that it is sati, not self, which is aware of the characteristics of realities. Understanding this is the only way to eradicate the idea of self, the idea of, ³I am practising².> ***** On the Pali list we are now reading Gradual Sayings, Book of the Ones, Ch VIII, Friendship with the lovely. 'Of slight account, monks, is the increase of such things as wealth. Chief of all the increases is that of wisdom...' The suttas of this series repeat all the time the value of wisdom, and the conditions for its arising, such as good friendship, wise attention, devotion to kusala dhammas. All these repetitions are effective reminders. Nina. 49117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha nilovg Hi Sarah and Azita, As far as I understood also for samatha sati sampajañña that discerns directly, without thinking, kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is necessary. True, it does not know them as non-self, but I believe that there is more here than merely thinking about them. But perhaps this is also what you mean? I may have misunderstood you. Perhaps I get confused by your words conceptual. A most difficult word for me and it can have many different meanings. Strong sati and pannña are necessary as the Visuddhimagga says in its treatment of anapana sati samaadhi. In samatha there is paññaa of the level of samatha, but there are sati and paññaa, not thinking of concepts. Nina. op 22-08-2005 10:00 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > So in samatha, the panna developed does not know kusala states as > realities. This can only be by the development of satipatthana. Even when > we say that in samatha development, panna understands what calm is and how > it can be attained, when the hindrances arise, what the jhana factors are, > how the hindrances are overcome by the jhana factors and so one, it’s > conceptual right understanding and awareness. 49118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Dan D. (+ dear Howard and Frank ) - Thank you for explaining your views on anger and the related problems in the message # 49111. Dan D. : However, he doesn't describe any *method* for dissolution of anger. He simply describes what he sees happening: "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." Tep: I think LuangPu Dun adequately told us about what dhamma to practice in order that anger would disappear. The key for successful "anger management" is in this sentence: "When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own". In order to be aware of anger in time we have to practice observing the citta by cittanupassana. He left out "cittanupassana" because it was a well- understood dhamma among his students. Tep: I like Howard's comment: > Howard: > I agree that most of us are unable to "decide" to be aware of a > particular moment of arising, or about-to-arise, anger. But it is >possible to cultivate a general habit of attending mindfully >to whatever arises, or is about to arise, and even to concentrate that >habit of emotive phenomena. Mindfulness can and should be >cultivated, I believe. If I thought it could not be, I would abandon the >Buddhist enterprise. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Dan (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 8/22/05 11:23:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@y... writes: > Hi Frank, > I agree with you that Luang Pu deftly handled the inquiry, as you > explain: "The way the question is phrased, 'how does one cut off > anger', the inquirer seems to anticipate the method would involve a > strong will and forceful measures to eliminate anger. Luang Pu's > response immediately dispels any notion of forceful countermeasure or > any kind of repression, suppression, smoke & mirrors diversion that > temporarily averts anger without addressing the underlying cause." > > However, he doesn't describe any *method* for dissolution of anger. > He simply describes what he sees happening: "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of > it in time, it disappears on its own." > > He does not say: "...There's only being aware of it in time. Direct > you attention to it, observe it with bare awareness, and then it will > disappear on its own." > > No method. No anger management technique. The angry person story illustrates what happens when the descriptive "being aware" is mis- read as an imperative "be aware". > --------------------------------------- 49119 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo Naing - >I am Htoo Naing. I just reply this just to make you know this is my >new mail address. I am pleased to know Htoo Naing who has got a new email address. Htoo, I hope you did not look at one tree and miss the forest. The word 'intellect' was used by Nyanaponika Thera for panna (for whatever reason I don't know). But the important dhamma in the Venerable's article is how and why panna should be balanced with saddha. Please read my DSG message # 49013. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Nina, Tep, Sarah, and all, > > I am Htoo Naing. I just reply this just to make you know this is my > new mail address. > > One thing. Intellect is not equal to panna. > > That is [intellect] =/= pannaa. > > Examples are there are intellectual thieves like online hackers who > steal others' bank accounts. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Thanks Jon. It is amazingly large mail box. 2000 Megabytes. > htootintnaing@y... (JTN) > > On 22/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina - > > > > N: > I miss something. Intellect as translation of paññaa. > > > > T: It is just a name. Once we know what the translator meant, we should > > have no problem. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > Tep > > 49120 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ a reply buddhistmedi... Dear Dan - I thought this post of yours was interesting so I decided to respond to it (after I had already replied to another one that came afterward). "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Tep, > You ask: "Luang Pu were above anger -- everybody who knew him > knows about this. Don't you think that the problem about control of > anger is below his level?" > > The story was not written for Luang Pu's benefit. > Tep: I apologize for my typo: it should be corrected to "Luang Pu was above anger - ...." > > Tep: However, I do not see any "important questions about awareness and about control (including some that may be uncomfortable)" as you have stated. > Dan D. : > 1. Anger is a very gross emotion, and when people are angry, they > usually are quite aware of it. And yet, that "being aware" doesn't > seem to help. Why not? > > 2. An instruction to "be aware of your anger" frequently intensifies > anger in the hearer -- similar to the angry guy in the story. Why is > that? > > 3. In an instruction along the lines of "Do this-and-that to gain > control over the arising and passing away of such-and-such", who > implements the instruction? > > 4. Why would a story about anger management techniques arouse such > anger? > Tep: 1. At the low worldling level - those who don't know mindfulness through the Satipatthana Sutta - being aware doesn't help. Because their "awareness" is not working. 2. Because he doesn't realize the dangers of anger and doesn't understand that anger is unwholesome. 3. Probably it is a person who reads an article on "anger management". 4. I don't know. I've never had the same experience. Respectfully, Tep ============ 49121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 497 ) nilovg Dear Htoo, I like the way you treat d and e very much. Good reminders. Just a typo at c: instead of ayatana it is samyojana. c gives unwise attention as the reason for their arising. No one owns them. Nina. op 22-08-2005 13:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > c). Why these 10 ayatana arise? > > Because they have not been eradicated and because 6 external sense > bases are inappropriately attended. > > d). How do these 10 samyojana arise? > > They arise unnoticed, instantaneously and overwhelmingly. > > e). Whose are they? > > No one owns any samyojana. Samyojanas are dhamma. Dhamma are not self. > They are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory. 49122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five Aggregates nilovg Hi Limchin, The Buddha always had his reasons for teaching and classifying dhammas in such or such way. For the purpose of teaching those who could be led to enlightenment and also in beautifying his teaching. There are more than one reason and this is one reason I can think of: we are very much taken in by feelings and also by saññaa that marks and remembers each object that is experienced and that causes us to cling. We cling very much to feeling and sannñaa and take them for self, but they are only khandhas that are . The Buddha said this of each of the five khandhas of clinging. Nina. op 22-08-2005 09:34 schreef limchinkah op limchinkah@...: > My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to specifically > single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the group of 52 > cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? Why couldn't He > just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates - ie 49123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas' study corner 255- accumulations nilovg Dear Htoo, Thanks for your interest and feedback. op 22-08-2005 13:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Then the book(Nina) says 'because it has been accumulated'. > > This is the point where I have an interest. My questions are > > 1. what is accumulation? > 2. is there a single dhamma unit lobha arises and passes away? > 3. or are many many lobha dhamma-s accumulated (in a container_citta?) > 4. in which way is it deeply rooted and where? ---------- N: First of all why does lobha arise? Because there is the latent tendency of desire accumulated in each citta. I quote what from what I wrote about the latent tendencies, anusayas: I quote more: The ³Saddhammapajjotikå², the Commentary to the Mahåniddesa, in the Commentary to Chapter 8, ³the Purified² (Suddhatthaka) explains about the latent tendencies: ³What is the meaning of the expression anusaya? It means that it lies dormant. What is the meaning of lying dormant? It means that it cannot be eradicated. These defilements lie dormant in the succession of beings¹ cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they are called latent tendencies, anusaya.² ***** The lobha-muulacittas arise and then fall away, they are completely gone. But, more lobha is added and accumulated as latent tendency of desire, kaamaraganusaya. It lies dormant in each citta that arises and falls away in the long, long series of cittas going on without interruption in samsara. Cittas succeed one another uninterruptedly and that is why good and bad qualities, all experiences in life are accumulated from moment to moment. Perhaps this answers your Q. 1-4? If not, please tell me. ------- Htoo: Continuation of discussion: > > The fact that we have studied just means we know as we heard/read. > This is not what we realized. That is why we still want pleasant > things for ourselves. > > It is true that at the time of attachment (wanting pleasant things), > there is no understanding or realization that things are subjected to > change and do not last long. ------- N: True, we, or rather the akusala citta is forgetful. It shows that there is at such a moment a completely different citta, akusala citta, different from the kusala citta that had understanding. Those were kusala cittas with understanding. It seems that one can be as it were a different person at different moments, how changeable we are. In reality this shows that there are different cittas. Also these are accumulated, good tendencies and bad tendencies, all of them are accumulated in each citta. It is amazing what one citta contains. Now it depends on many differnet conditions whether kusala or akusala has an opportunity to arise at a given moment. This is also amazing, isn't it? I quote from my Visuddhimagga studies: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. > Nina. 49124 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Htoo: > Do you want to die right now? > Joop's possible answer: > No, Htoo. I still do not want to die now. (this shows bhavaraaga). > or alternative > Yes, Htoo. I now want to die. (this shows bhavaraaga to better > rebirth). > Htoo: This shows that 'you want to die now. Because you do not like > your current life but want another better life. And so you want to > end it. This is also bhavaraaga. > > Sutta: > There are 2 fetters. Ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga. > > You may argue that you do not have these 2. Suttas are sometimes > difficulty to understand and there are a lot of repeatitions. Here I > do not have any idea why 'bhavaraaga' is divided into 2 fetters. > > fetters are to tie. These desire tie beings to loka. When one do not > know anything about rupa brahma and arupa brahma how should he have > these 2 fetters of ruuparaaga and aruparaaga. > > I have already replied you in abhidhamma form. Maybe Sutta experts > will be able to explain you. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Thank you Htoo. To me (in this case) the Abhidhamma treat, with using the term 'bhavaraaga' in steat of 'ruuparaaga' and 'aruuparaaga' in the Sutta is more clear. I mean clear in a spiritual way, not in a intellectual way. And especially clear that there is no reason for my thinking that I only have eight and not ten fetters: I (still) have bhavaraaga ! With metta Joop 49125 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma soup for the worldly upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 8/22/05 12:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: KYE HO! Listen with joy! Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety. Since worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality! In the transcending of mind's dualities is Supreme vision; In a still and silent mind is Supreme Meditation; In spontaneity is Supreme Activity; And when all hopes and fears have died, the Goal is reached. (a verse from Tilopa's instructions to Naropa) ========================= I like this very much, Frank, especially the 2nd paragraph! [By 'spontaneity' I understand not unconditioned phenomena, but activities unconditioned by ignorance - especially sense of self, and unaccompanied by plodding thought.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49126 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:26am Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) upasaka_howard Hi again, Dan (and Tep) - In a message dated 8/22/05 12:28:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: But it is possible to cultivate a general habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises, or is about to arise, and even to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena. ========================== The phrase "to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena" was supposed to be "to concentrate that habit on emotive phenomena." Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49127 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Five Aggregates rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: > Dear all, > > > My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to specifically single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the group of 52 cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? Why couldn't He just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates - ie > > 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) > 2. The Aggregate of Citta > 3. The Aggregate of Cetasikas > >_______ Dear Lim, The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives this answer: "There are people who like short explanations, there are people who like explanations of medium length, and there are people who like detailed explanations. Those among the different groups who are slow in understanding as regards mentality can understand realities as explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality is classified by way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. Those who are slow in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) can understand realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five senses and the five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are åyatanas. As to dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus in this classification rúpa has been explained more extensively. Those who are slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in this classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained in detail."enquote As Nina indicated by separating out sanna and vedana among the nama aggregates it helps us to see the them. Robertk 49128 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi> When there is right understanding of conditionality, there is no > desire to 'get in there and make Dhamma-practice happen.' Why should > there be? > > ______ Dear Ken, How true. This made me reflect on how I used to be as a new Buddhist: no insight at all, 100% wrong view and thus believing I had to do something. No possibility of seeing the present moment at all. Robert 49129 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Herman: "Messrs Meriam and Webster have "control", IMHO uncontroversially, as "to exercise restraining or directing influence over". In our context, control would simply be an instance of an amalgam of conditions, with one or some of them exercising more dominance than others. Is this a workable definition for you?" Hi Herman, If dhamma A controls the arising of dhamma B it must do so without depending on any other dhamma. If it depends on another dhamma it is not in control. It is in dependence. This applies to physics as much as it does to psychology. Larry 49130 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) egberdina Hi Htoo and Joop, I hope you guys won't mind if I chip in. > Htoo: > > Dear Joop. I understand that. But are you sure you do not have 'the > desire of fine-material being' and 'the desire of non-material being'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Do you want to die right now? > > Joop's possible answer: > > No, Htoo. I still do not want to die now. (this shows bhavaraaga). > > or alternative > > Yes, Htoo. I now want to die. (this shows bhavaraaga to better > rebirth). > > Htoo: This shows that 'you want to die now. Because you do not like > your current life but want another better life. And so you want to > end it. This is also bhavaraaga. > === I think that it is very difficult for an Easterner to know the mind of a Westerner, and vice versa. You may find it very difficult to believe, but you're just going to have to accept that I DO NOT WANT TO BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!!! (my emphasis :-)) Furthermore, I have absolutely no doubt that I WILL NOT BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!! Furthermore, a natural death seems to be the only socially acceptable way to go, any deliberate act to bring the inevitable forward will cause enormous grief and doubt and pain to others. So I am quite happy to let nature takes it's course, because that way everybody is reasonably happy. The belief in rebirth, and the wish for rebirth, is cultural, it has something to do with the water in the Indus valley. It is not universal. Kind Regards Herman 49131 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Kamma and the Law egberdina Hi Azita, Thanks for your feedback. > > you ask: > > > How does a Buddhist (especially a legal beagle of Buddhist > persuasion) > > reconcile the notion of individual responsibility, with the > notions of > > anatta and kamma, which imply an absence of individual agency (the > > ability to act outside of prevailing conditions)? > > > > A. IMO a good buddhist would abide by the laws of the country in > which he/she is employed and also by the conditions of his/her > contract with his employer. > it would not go down too well if he said in court: 'well, your > Honour, as there is no you, no me, if fact all of this is only a > concept and therefore 'we' are wasting our time.......' or something > like this. > I would think, Herman, that having these notions of anatta and > kamma, would aid that person in carrying out his job no more and > possibly no less than if he did'nt have the notions. He could > possibly be a bit more relaxed about the situation, hard to know > really. > that's just my 2 cents worth :-) > > Patience, courage and good cheer, What is the purpose in punishing individuals for things "they have done" if deep down you really believe that it is just unfolding of conditionality? I accept that it wouldn't go down well in court to argue the reality of the situation, but why be a Buddhist if you feel your social obligations are greater than your obligation to understand reality and live accordingly? I'm not arguing, just wanting to find out what goes on. Kind Regards Herman 49132 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry, You seem to be doubting not only the notion of control, but of dominance as well. On 23/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Herman: "Messrs Meriam and Webster have "control", IMHO > uncontroversially, as "to exercise restraining or directing influence > over". In our context, control would simply be an instance of an amalgam > of conditions, with one or some of them exercising more dominance than > others. > Is this a workable definition for you?" > > Hi Herman, > > If dhamma A controls the arising of dhamma B it must do so without > depending on any other dhamma. If it depends on another dhamma it is not > in control. It is in dependence. This applies to physics as much as it > does to psychology. > == In physics, a body moves in accordance with the sum total of forces acting on it. If I jump up with delight, the resulting movement of my body is less affected by any of the stars in Orion than my upward push, and mostly dominated by the pull downward from the earth. Yes, the pull from the stars in Orion is dependent on other things, as is the pull from the Earth. Still, it's there, isn't it? Now for psychology. Do you doubt that craving dominates your mindscape? How does dependent arising affect any of this? Kind Regards Herman 49133 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/22/05 6:25:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: The belief in rebirth, and the wish for rebirth, is cultural, it has something to do with the water in the Indus valley. It is not universal. ====================== No, but it goes beyond that territory. Plotinus accepted it as fact, I believe. It is also part of mystical Judaism - in Kabbala and Chassidism, where it is known as "gilgul ha neshama" [rebirth of the soul]), and I believe it was a part of early Christianity until some council said "Enough of that!" Of course, it has a distinctive nature in Buddhism, where there is no soul that is reincarnated, and, in fact, there is nothing at all that literally continues or is reborn, but it is simply a matter of earlier phenomena serving as conditions for the subsequent arising of later related phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49134 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Herman: "In physics, a body moves in accordance with the sum total of forces acting on it. If I jump up with delight, the resulting movement of my body is less affected by any of the stars in Orion than my upward push, and mostly dominated by the pull downward from the earth." Larry: Jumping depends on resistance and gravity. Legs don't control resistance or gravity so how could they control jumping. H: "Yes, the pull from the stars in Orion is dependent on other things, as is the pull from the Earth. Still, it's there, isn't it?" L: Yes, dependently arising. H: "Now for psychology. Do you doubt that craving dominates your mindscape? How does dependent arising affect any of this?" L: Craving can't arise without perception and feeling. So craving isn't in control. Larry 49135 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry, I think I am lost. Are you are saying that a definition of control as being "to exercise restraining or directing influence over" is not acceptable to you? Or are you saying that definition is acceptable to you, but there is nothing anywhere that conforms to that definition? Kind Regards Herman. On 23/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Herman: "In physics, a body moves in accordance with the sum total of > forces acting on it. If I jump up with delight, the resulting movement > of my body is less affected by any of the stars in Orion than my upward > push, and mostly dominated by the pull downward from the earth." > > Larry: Jumping depends on resistance and gravity. Legs don't control > resistance or gravity so how could they control jumping. > H: "Yes, the pull from the stars in Orion is dependent on other things, > as is the pull from the Earth. Still, it's there, isn't it?" > > L: Yes, dependently arising. > > H: "Now for psychology. Do you doubt that craving dominates your > mindscape? How does dependent arising affect any of this?" > > L: Craving can't arise without perception and feeling. So craving isn't > in control. > > Larry 49136 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) egberdina Hi Howard, Thanks for this. You are quite right, of course. On 23/08/05, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 8/22/05 6:25:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > The belief in rebirth, and the wish for rebirth, is cultural, it has > something to do with the water in the Indus valley. It is not > universal. > ====================== > No, but it goes beyond that territory. Plotinus accepted it as fact, I > believe. It is also part of mystical Judaism - in Kabbala and Chassidism, where > it is known as "gilgul ha neshama" [rebirth of the soul]), and I believe it > was a part of early Christianity until some council said "Enough of that!" Of > course, it has a distinctive nature in Buddhism, where there is no soul that is > reincarnated, and, in fact, there is nothing at all that literally continues > or is reborn, but it is simply a matter of earlier phenomena serving as > conditions for the subsequent arising of later related phenomena. > I'm wondering about the non-Indian examples you quote, whether the belief in the reality of rebirth is considered an affliction, from which one seeks liberation, as in Buddhism. Kind Regards Herman 49137 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: I DO NOT WANT TO > BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!!! (my emphasis :-)) Furthermore, I have > absolutely no doubt that I WILL NOT BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!! > ________ Dear Herman, According to Buddhist texts only an arahant will not be reborn. The rest of us will, like it or not. Robertk 49138 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) egberdina Hi RobertK, On 23/08/05, rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: > I DO NOT WANT TO > > BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!!! (my emphasis :-)) Furthermore, I have > > absolutely no doubt that I WILL NOT BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!! > > ________ > Dear Herman, > According to Buddhist texts only an arahant will not be reborn. The > rest of us will, like it or not. > Robertk > > Like you, I don't assume myself to be an arahant. Do the Buddhist texts suggest I should attempt to acquire a belief in rebirth, so I can attempt to rid myself of it later down the track? Kind Regards Herman > 49139 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Herman: "I think I am lost. Are you are saying that a definition of control as being "to exercise restraining or directing influence over" is not acceptable to you? Or are you saying that definition is acceptable to you, but there is nothing anywhere that conforms to that definition?" Hi Herman, I'm saying we need more definition. Control demands autonomy. Everything happens dependent on many factors. Therefore there is no control. Larry 49140 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry, Now I know for sure I'm lost :-) On 23/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Herman: "I think I am lost. Are you are saying that a definition of > control as being "to exercise restraining or directing influence over" > is not acceptable to you? Or are you saying that definition is > acceptable to you, but there is nothing anywhere that conforms to that > definition?" > > Hi Herman, > > I'm saying we need more definition. Control demands autonomy. Everything > happens dependent on many factors. Therefore there is no control. > I'm saying: let's use X as a definition for control. Then you say : No, the definition needs to include autonomy. I need that to be there so I can reject it. I think you are talking about ABSOLUTE control, with the emphasis on ABSOLUTE. The notion of absolute, in relation to anything at all, is a complete nonsense. If we agree on ABSOLUTE anything being a complete nonsense, can we discuss degrees of control? Kind Regards Herman 49141 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control lbidd2 Herman: "If we agree on ABSOLUTE anything being a complete nonsense, can we discuss degrees of control?" Hi Herman, No. There's no such thing as degrees of control. Control by its very nature is absolute. A degree of control is just a tiny absolute control. Otherwise, we're talking about dependent arising. Larry 49142 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman and Larry - I think I understand what you, Herman, wrote about the "degrees of control". Herman: > > I'm saying: let's use X as a definition for control. Then you say : > No, the definition needs to include autonomy. I need that to be there > so I can reject it. > > I think you are talking about ABSOLUTE control, with the emphasis on > ABSOLUTE. The notion of absolute, in relation to anything at all, is a > complete nonsense. If we agree on ABSOLUTE anything being a complete nonsense, can we discuss degrees of control? > Tep: Now I am trying my best to decipher Larry's deep Abhidhammic philosophical statement (> > I'm saying we need more definition. Control demands autonomy. Everything happens dependent on many factors. Therefore there is no control.). I guess Larry is saying that there are only conditioned dhammas (according to Dependent Origination), therefore there is no "agent" to perform the control function. Nina may be happy to comment a little on the Larry's view. ^_^ But, was my interpretation acceptable, Larry? Thank you both, Tep --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Now I know for sure I'm lost :-) > > On 23/08/05, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Herman: "I think I am lost. Are you are saying that a definition of > > control as being "to exercise restraining or directing influence over" > > is not acceptable to you? Or are you saying that definition is > > acceptable to you, but there is nothing anywhere that conforms to that definition?" > > > > Hi Herman, > > > > I'm saying we need more definition. Control demands autonomy. Everything happens dependent on many factors. Therefore there is no control. > > > Kind Regards 49143 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/22/05 8:41:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: I'm wondering about the non-Indian examples you quote, whether the belief in the reality of rebirth is considered an affliction, from which one seeks liberation, as in Buddhism. ========================== I can only answer (somewhat) for Judaism. Judaism in this area, as in most areas, takes a positive, improvement-oriented perspective. As I understand it, the cycle of rebirths in Judaism is for the purpose of satisfying obligations and debts, for removing defilements in order to become more Godly, and for helping to "heal the world" (tikun olam). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49144 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Larry, I'm going to leave this discussion where it is. Just a few comments in closing. On 23/08/05, LBIDD@... wrote: > Herman: "If we agree on ABSOLUTE anything being a complete nonsense, can > we discuss degrees of control?" > > Hi Herman, > > No. == OK == >There's no such thing as degrees of control. > Control by its very nature is absolute. == Really? It seems to me you are wrestling with your own definitions. If three people with slightly differing strengths stand around a hoola-hoop and pull on it, the hoola-hoop ends up moving somewhere, yet not in any of the directions that the individuals pulled. There is a global result, dependent on the control/influence of each person, none of which is absolute. Control = influence (see Meriam Webster). Dominant influence = a greater degree of control. Over and out Herman 49145 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 kenhowardau Hi Azita (Sarah, Steve), -------------- Sarah: > > - levitation (for Ken H & Steve).....even a yogi can levitate because of > the cittas, not necessarily pure in anyway....anything possible. Access > concentration is a very highly developed level of samatha, but no refs > with regard to levitation given > >.............. Azita: > ummm - levitation eh? maybe if you two become proficient at it, you could levitate your way up here. --------------------------------- Thanks for the invitation, I'm not sure when that will be. :-) I asked the Cooran gathering to remind me of a reference to levitation that I had seen somewhere, I thought, in CMA. It was on a right-hand page about one third of the way down, and it was on the topic of the [extraordinarily difficult] requirements for jhana absorption. It said that even access concentration was so intense as to enable the meditator to levitate. No one was able to help, but later, Steve emailed me a Visuddhimagga reference, which explained that *some* meditators in the *first jhana* were able to levitate. So my memory might have been faulty - surprise, surprise. ----------------------- Az: > Its a bit of a 'dry argument', in terms of dhamma discussions, here. Glad to hear the Cooran w/e went well. ------------------------ Bad luck; and thanks, the weekend went very well. It is a good idea (of Sarah-and-Jon's) to post thumbnail summaries of discussions. They give us a chance to reflect where, at the time, there might not have been time to reflect. In praising the value of in-person discussions, we can easily forget how lucky we are to have DSG (internet) discussions. How else can there be so much time to listen (without having to think, at the same time, of what we are going to say next), and how else are we able to comment on every point the speaker is making (without having to constantly interrupt)? No one can hog the conversation - because we can easily scroll down to the next message. The advantages go on and on. It might be politically incorrect to say so, but I like - maybe even 'prefer' - these virtual discussions. It's good that we can have both. ------------------------------------ S: > > - 'If there is no contempaltion of reality (now or in the past), there > cannot be patisambhida (of all ariyans) because it's just in the book'/ > Num found the reference for A.Sujin's comment in the Patisambhida Magga. I > think the 5 conditions given are: > > a) attending to enlightenment > b) pariyatti > c) listening > d) questioning > e) previous effort (viriya) > > ........... A: > a] seems like the odd one out - how does one 'attend to enlightenment'? ---------------------------------- I have the advantage of seeing Sarah's reply. (Although, this time, it wasn't much help.) :- ) Could "attending to enlightenment" be just another way of saying, "applying what has been learnt to the present moment?" In other words, could it be a synonym for "patipatti" and "satipatthana?" Ken H 49146 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/22/05 11:18:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Thanks for the invitation, I'm not sure when that will be. :-) I asked the Cooran gathering to remind me of a reference to levitation that I had seen somewhere, I thought, in CMA. It was on a right-hand page about one third of the way down, and it was on the topic of the [extraordinarily difficult] requirements for jhana absorption. It said that even access concentration was so intense as to enable the meditator to levitate. ======================== Are you possibly thinking of that form of piti called "uplifting rapture"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49147 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - There is included the sentence <<"Uplifting rapture" is so-called because it is credited with the ability to cause the body to levitate, and the Visuddhimagga cites several cases where this literally occurs.>> in an article on Transcendental Dependent Arising by Bhikkhu Bodhi at the site www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49148 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > > > Like you, I don't assume myself to be an arahant. Do the Buddhist > texts suggest I should attempt to acquire a belief in rebirth, so I > can attempt to rid myself of it later down the track? > >++++++++++ Dear Herman, As far as I know it would never be suggested to try to rid of a right understanding (samma ditthi). It is a part of understanding conditionality. Robertk 49149 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth. nilovg Hi Herman, op 23-08-2005 00:21 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > I DO NOT WANT TO > BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!!! (my emphasis :-)) Furthermore, I have > absolutely no doubt that I WILL NOT BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!! ------ N: One life is too short to develop right understanding, and with rebirth there is another opportunity to develop wisdom. Lodewijk said: Lodewijk said this with great conviction. His health is not good and the hardship on the bus and during the journey is not a small matter for him. But inspite of this he has great confidence. We shall celebrate his eightieth birthday in Kuru, and I shall read to him the satipatthanasutta near the stone with the Asoka inscription that marks the place where the Buddha spoke this sutta. As Jon said, a good dosis of dhamma is valuable. But this does not mean that one should not be obedient to the doctor. One more thing: music has a therapeutic effect. We noticed this with my late father when he was disturbed. So, do not neglect your organ. With all good wishes, Nina and Lodewijk. 49150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ), rebirth. nilovg Hi Herman, I could add: Lodewijk made a photograph of a monument in a Jewish cemetery: two hands pointing to heaven, and the meaning is, as we inquired, chai, which is life. An old christian sequence: vita mutatur, non tollitur: life is changed, not taken away. This can be interpreted in the Buddhist way. People of olden times, even non-Buddhists knew. Each of us can make a small contribution in helping to heal the world, even if it is hardly noticeable. There is a purpose to our short life now. Beautifully said, Howard. Nina. op 23-08-2005 04:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I can only answer (somewhat) for Judaism. Judaism in this area, as in > most areas, takes a positive, improvement-oriented perspective. As I > understand > it, the cycle of rebirths in Judaism is for the purpose of satisfying > obligations and debts, for removing defilements in order to become more Godly, > and for > helping to "heal the world" (tikun olam). 49151 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:00am Subject: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? christine_fo... Hello all, A Dhamma Friend, has written elsewhere: "DF: Recently I have been studying more about the Antarabhava/Bardo/Chuin state as taught in different Mahayana schools. I had been under the impression that based on the Abhidhamma, that the Theravada traditions eschewed this concept in favor of immediate rebirth. While searching online, I came across this thread on the Yahoo Pali group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/7751?viscount=100 excerpt: "In contrast to the orthodox stand, there is significant Pali canonical evidence strongly suggestive of an intermediate state between one existence and another, a view supported by Theravada fundamentalists. Various suttas from the Nikayas clearly talk about a state of existence before actual rebirth as a another sentient being. Let me quote some examples from them". In addition, further in the thread it is claimed that many of the Thai Forrest tradition have come to believe in the existence of the antarabhava state: excerpt: "Basically, Ajahn Brahm (and the forest monks of Ajahn Chah) believe there is an antarabhava, partly from the numerous accounts in the Suttas, and according to Ajahn his personal experiences dealing with the dying in Thailand (I have not inquired further on this). Hoping he has written on this and will be published". DF: I am curious as well, since I have heard that the Abhidhamma is not held to be as important, in the Thai traditions. Any info or insights into this would be much appreciated. =============================== Chris: I suggested that he might like to ask the questions here, but he has given me permission to ask these questions on DSG in his stead. "Questions from DF: "1) ....... some of the Thai forrest tradition believe, based on their experiences dealing with the dying, that there was an antarabhava state. Do the Thai monks have any antarabhava related practices that they perform? Do they act as guides? 2) Do the Thai monks have any practices for themselves to do as they traverse the antarabhava state? 3) I read a similar argument ... on the Pali Group thread, that people might just take rather brief rebirths as ghosts/devas etc. Is this the orthodox stance when the argument for the antarabhava is made? 4) Are the apparent contradictions between some of the Suttas and the Abhidhamma addressed, and/or is there a traditional commentary on the passages that indicate the existence of the antarabhava?" ============================== Chris: I had previously given the following information: Excerpt from post 16073 on Dhamma Study Group: "The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. " As the summary from the commentary reads "Some..., by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - `completed existence within the interval' - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One's dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc)." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16073 Other posts in different threads relevant to the intermediate state question: DSG Post 22272 DSG Post 24939 DSG Post 33266 DSG Post 44248 ============================= To which DF replied: "Thank you for the selected posts. They were well presented and definitely fleshed out the orthodox argument against antarabhava. It does seem to revolve largely around the Abhidhamma passage. If you wouldn't mind posting the message to your other group I would be interested in hearing the responses. The most compelling source in the link I posted was this one from the Kutuhalasala Sutta: 'And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?" "Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."' DF: It leaves a little room for interpretation." ======================================== Chris: I remember asking something like this myself a few years ago ... and would be interested in, and grateful, for member's clarifying this question for DF. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49152 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:21am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 256- Attachment/lobha (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 26), in the “Discourse on the Ariyan Quest”, that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the ariyan quest and the unariyan quest. The unariyan quest is the seeking of all the things which are impermanent. The Buddha spoke about things which are “liable to birth”. Birth is followed by decay and death. Whatever is born, what has arisen because of conditions, has to fall away, it cannot be true happiness. We read: * "… And what monks, is the unariyan quest? As to this, monks, someone, liable to birth because of self, seeks what is likewise liable to birth; being liable to ageing because of self, seeks what is likewise liable to ageing; being liable to decay because of self… being liable to dying because of self… being liable to sorrow because of self… being liable to stain because of self, seeks what is likewise liable to stain. And what, monks, would you say is liable to birth? Sons and wife, monks, are liable to birth, women-slaves and men-slaves are liable to birth, goats and sheep are liable to birth, cocks and swine are liable to birth, elephants, cows, horses and mares are liable to birth, gold and silver are liable to birth. These attachments, monks, are liable to birth; yet this (man), enslaved, infatuated, addicted, being liable to birth because of self, seeks what is likewise liable to birth…" * It is then explained that all the things which are mentioned as being liable to birth are also liable to ageing, disease, dying, sorrow and stain. We are attached to family, possessions, gold and silver, to everything we believe can give us pleasure. We long for what is pleasant and we have aversion when we do not get what we want. Our attachment is a source of endless frustrations. Further on in the sutta we read that the person who sees the peril of all the things which are impermanent seeks “the unborn, uttermost security from the bonds- nibbåna”. This is the ariyan quest. We may understand the disadvantage of lobha, but lobha cannot be eradicated immediately. This sutta can remind us to develop right understanding of realities, since this can eventually lead to the eradication of lobha. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49153 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 495 ) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: >... > The belief in rebirth, and the wish for rebirth, is cultural, it has > something to do with the water in the Indus valley. It is not > universal. > > Kind Regards > > Herman Dear Herman, Howard, Robert, Htoo and all Herman, you are touching a point I daren't touch; but you are (in a exaggerating way) right. What I thought when writing my message was: "I think nearly no Westerner has the two fetters, mentioned in the Suttas: 6. ruuparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of fine-material being' 7. aruparaaga samyojana or 'fetter of desire of non-material being' " And in the second place I think, but will not stress to much this theme in dsg: So nearly no Westerner has the strong wish to be reborn; even nearly no Westerner (buddhist or not) thinks he will be reborn at all: either they simply don't believe it or are agnostic about it." But I can't believe the Suttas are so ethnocentristic as you suggest; perhaps is were only the commentators. So the question of Htoo (and me) remains: can anybody give more explanation about the use of the terms 'RUPARAGA' and 'ARUPARAGA' in the Suttas ? More general: is anywhere in the Suttas the term 'rebirth' linked with 'raga' (desire)? I have done some research, without much success to find them. One of the rare times was a footnote of Bikkhu Bodhi in his translation of the Samyutta Nikaya: (p. 1898) The five higher fetters (lust for the form, lust for the formless, …) "These are the fetters that bind beings to the form realm and the formless realm …" No mentioning of rebirth at all. O, yes, rebirth is mentioned in the Suttas, but as far as I understand as something inevitable for not-arahants, and not as something desirable. And I know Biikkhu Bodhi has written an rejecting essay on Stephen Batchelor's (and others idea) on Buddhism without rebirth. But I think -with Herman - that the belief in rebirth is cultural, not universal. To say in in an other way: the belief in rebirth is perhaps the only really doctrine in (Theravada) buddhism: you had to believe it or not believe it (and I don't) I have another theory: perhaps 'ruparaga and 'aruparaga' are about the dangers of being to long in jhana-meditation, and liking the mental styates it creates, too much. Metta Joop 49154 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five Aggregates sarahprocter... Dear Chin Kah, --- limchinkah wrote: S: Welcome to DSG! I’m glad to see your interest in Abhidhamma. ... > My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to > specifically single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the > group of 52 cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? > Why couldn't He just define the human being as being made up of three > aggregates - ie > > 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) > 2. The Aggregate of Citta > 3. The Aggregate of Cetasikas ... S: As the others said, we are so very affected and influenced by feelings and perception/recognition (sa~n~naa) and so they are stressed in this way to help us understand them as anatta. I have some further quotes which indicate why they are separate khandhas, I think: 1.From the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha (PTS), ch 7, Categories, (49): “These five,namely, materiality, feeling recognition, the remaining mentalities and consciousness, are stated as the five aggregates.” Commentary “ ‘The remaining mentalities: the remaining apart from feeling and recognition. But why are feeling and recognition given separately? Because – of the dhammas involved in the round of rebirth – they constitute enjoyment and what facilitates that. For feeling occurs by way of enjoyment of the dhammas of the three levels, and when it occurs in the manner of the distorted view that perceives the beautiful in the ugly, recognition becomes a facilitator of that. Therefore, because they are the principal causes of sa.msaara.they are taught separately. This has been said by the Aacariya [Anuruddha]: ‘in order to explain them separately as the enjoyment of the dhammas of the round of rebirth and as assisting that enjoyment, this pair of aggregates is set apart.’” ***** 2. From the commentary to the Vibhanga, ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (PTS), ch1, Classification of the Aggregates, 130 “Of these,firstly, ‘order of arising’ is not appropriate here because the aggregates do not arise in the order of their successive determining....nor ‘order of abandoning’....nor ‘order of practice’......nor ‘order of plane’ because feeling, etc are included in all four planes. But 'order of teaching' is appropriate. "For there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen to assuming a self among the five aggregates through these not having been divided up; and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from assumption of a self by getting them to see how the compact mass is resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, first, for the purpose of their easy grasping, he taught the gross materiality aggregate which is the object of the eye and so on; and after that the feeling which feels the materiality experienced as desirable and undesirable; [then] the perception which grasps the aspects of the object of feeling thus: ‘What he feels, that he perceives’ (M i 293); [then] formations which form by means of perception; [and lastly] consciousness which is their support and which dominates them.” ***** 3. From the same text and chapter, 140: “ ‘As to simile’.Here the materiality aggregated (as object) of clinging is like a sickroom (gilaanasaalaa) because it is the dwelling place, as the physical basis, door and object, for the sick man, [namely] the consciousness aggregate of clinging. The feeling aggregate of clinging is like the sickness because it afflicts. The perception aggregate of clinging is like the provocation of the sickness because of the presence of feeling associated with greed, etc being due to the perception of sense desires, etc. The formations aggregate of clinging is like having recourse to what is unsuitable because it is that which gives rise to feeling which is the sickness. For it is said: ‘They form feeling for the purposes of feeling’ (S iii 87). Likewise it is ‘because of the doing, the heaping up of unprofitable kamma that resultant body consciousness comes to arise accompanied by pain’ (Dhs 556). The consciousness aggregate of clinging is like the sick man because of not being free from feeling which is the sickness. “Also these are [respectively] like the prison, the punishment, the offence, the punisher and the offender, and they are [respectively] like the dish, the food, the curry [poured on the food] the server and the eater.” ***** S: Let us know if the comments and quotes help. Metta, Sarah p.s Where was your Abhidhamma course? Look f/w to hearing anything more about your background and interest in the Dhamma. ============================================ 49155 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Brahmavamso (Re: e-card from Bangkok 3) sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, Thanks for picking up on this topic: --- Christine Forsyth wrote: <...> > Day 1: The Way of Serenity; The Method for Jhana <...> S: I think the question you raised after listening to these talks (I haven't heard them, so cannot comment on them), was something along the lines of 'why not be aware of present realities AND follow the methods described for attaining jhana...?' <..> > It is true that one of the constant 'needs' I have is for a method > to follow, which usually conditions teasing in Bangkok - but 'I y'am > what I y'am' ... ... S: I think the question is 'who or what follows the methods?' Also, 'what is jhana' and 'what is samatha'? .... > > So, it could be said that accidentally putting this CD into the > player has led to considerable perturbation - and I wonder what > others think of taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they > say .... And has anyone else studied/followed/listened to the > teachings of Ajahn Brahmavamso? .... S: I'm sure there must be others who have 'studied/followed/listened to the teachings of Ajahn Brahmavamso' and look f/w to any of their responses. As you know, I don't find the suttas simple and obvious for the most part, but think we need to consider the words very carefully and with an understanding that these are the teachings of anatta. Sorry not to be able to help more directly. I'll look f/w to any further replies from others and any of your own further comments. You might like to consider selecting a quote or sutta for further consideration of your point or 'perturbation'. Thank for raising this issue and the other issues with us. Metta, Sarah p.s Evan, I think you said before you're familiar with AB's teachings??? Maybe Howard, RobK, KenH and others have further comments too. ================================== 49156 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth. jwromeijn Dear Nina Nina: One life is too short to develop right understanding, and with rebirth there is another opportunity to develop wisdom. Joop: You are right, but these are no arguments that rebirth exists; it are arguments that life with (the idea of) rebirth is more agreeable. I hope Lodewijk and you do have a good time the next weeks and return in good health. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > op 23-08-2005 00:21 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@g...: > > > I DO NOT WANT TO > > BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!!! (my emphasis :-)) Furthermore, I have > > absolutely no doubt that I WILL NOT BE REBORN !!!! ANYWHERE !!!! > ------ > N: One life is too short to develop right understanding, and with rebirth > there is another opportunity to develop wisdom. > Lodewijk said: this is a condiiton for a favorable rebirth. If at all possible you should > visit the holy places in India. This experience will not free you from your > sufferings and troubles, but it will surely give you a better insight into > your life and some reassurance as to future lives.> > Lodewijk said this with great conviction. His health is not good and the > hardship on the bus and during the journey is not a small matter for him. > But inspite of this he has great confidence. > We shall celebrate his eightieth birthday in Kuru, and I shall read to him > the satipatthanasutta near the stone with the Asoka inscription that marks > the place where the Buddha spoke this sutta. > As Jon said, a good dosis of dhamma is valuable. But this does not mean that > one should not be obedient to the doctor. > One more thing: music has a therapeutic effect. We noticed this with my > late father when he was disturbed. So, do not neglect your organ. > With all good wishes, > Nina and Lodewijk. 49157 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:01pm Subject: Quite Right bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Dangerous are the many Temptations in the round of Rebirths !!! One intent on rescuing himself from the mud of Samsara cannot fulfill his ideal if he relaxes Energy; how much less one who aspires to rescue the entire world? Such one should reflect: "It is quite right for you to escape from the Suffering of Samsara by your own power, since so long as you are a foolish worldling the swarm of mental defilements is as difficult to control as a flock of mad elephants, the behaviour caused by them is like a killer following behind with a drawn sword, and the painful destinations resulting from such actions are therefore constantly in front of you with wide open doors! Furthermore evil friends are always around to tell & press you to do these wrong yet tantalizing & tempting actions! One thus never knows what one might do in the future & the effects thereof !!! Therefore: Save yourself before you loose this precious human opportunity! Choose the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the Noble Eightfold Way before it is too late, again...! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:More on the Five Aggregates nilovg Dear Robert and Lim, thank you Robert. I could not find the page in my edition: Topics of the Abhidhamma and Co. On p. 281 I have more: > The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the > Abhidhammattha > Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives > this answer: > > "There are people who like short explanations, there > are people who > like explanations of medium length, and there are > people who like > detailed explanations. Those among the different > groups who are slow in > understanding as regards mentality can understand > realities as > explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality > is classified by > way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. > Those who are slow > in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) > can understand > realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five > senses and the > five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are > åyatanas. As to > dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus > in this > classification rúpa has been explained more > extensively. Those who are > slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can > understand realities > as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in > this > classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained > in detail."enquote > As Nina indicated by separating out sanna and vedana among the nama > aggregates it helps us to see them. > Robertk 49159 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 gazita2002 hello Sarah, could'nt think of a better receipient than Reg, for the mp3 and thank you for the thought. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > > (We thought of you a lot on the trip and were disappointed to find out > that you were unable to join the discussions in Queensland with all your > present moment comments. Anyway, we hope to see you in India. I had taken > an mp3 for you, but gave it to Reg instead...) > > Very good feedback comments of yours here: > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > - In samatha, panna knows kusala as kusala, akusala as akusala as > > > concepts. Like now. > > > > A. don't understand this. I thought that the panna dev in samatha > > knew a/kusala as realities and knew them from ea other. I thought > > panna had to know them like this so that right samatha would dev. > > Can you give more explanation please Sarah. > .... > S: Simply, as I understand, if it's not the reality being experienced, > then it is a concept. Like now, just as Ken H explained (along with his > other right track comments about 'the average Joe'in #49032). > > There maybe useful reflection on awareness, metta, anger or any other > kusala or akusala state, but if it's not awareness of the characteristic, > then it's a concept at this moment. > > So in samatha, the panna developed does not know kusala states as > realities. This can only be by the development of satipatthana. Even when > we say that in samatha development, panna understands what calm is and how > it can be attained, when the hindrances arise, what the jhana factors are, > how the hindrances are overcome by the jhana factors and so one, it's > conceptual right understanding and awareness. > > Of course, there are many kinds of concepts (see CMA) and `degrees' of > thinking with awareness about them. A. this last sentence is the important one, I think. Concepts [to my tiny mind] simply mean useless things but of course, this is not necessarily the case. I mean to me at this point in time, Nibbana is a concept but its certainly not a useless concept. > ..... > S: I hope the others add anything further. We had the coldest day on > record (or was it an August record, KenH?) and a little levitation up to > your warm climate would have been useful. A. it was actually cold here too. probably our coldest day as well > > > > > > a) attending to enlightenment > > > b) pariyatti > > > c) listening > > > d) questioning > > > e) previous effort (viriya) > > > > A. a] seems like the odd one out - how does one 'attend to > > enlightenment'? > .... > S: Yes, I don't follow this one either.....Num was reading out from the > Thai text and translating as he went. A. i notice KenH has posted something on this, so no further comment on this one til its clearer for me. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 49160 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 498 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) These dhamma are akusala dhamma. They are dormant forms. They are hardly detected as they are in sub-detectable forms. This means that when a being has not eradicated these anusaya dhamma there is potential that these anusaya dhamma or these dormant tendencies become manifested in detectable forms. Examples are individuals who have attained different levels of jhaana attainments. There are 4 ruupa jhaanas and 4 aruupa jhaanas. When individuals attain these jhaanas they do not have akusala dhamma. This is right as long as they are in jhaana. But as they have not eradicated the potentials then these un-eradicated dhamma may at a time become manifested. There are 7 anusaya dhamma. They are 1. kaamaraaga anusaya or latent tendency of desire for sensuality 2. bhavaraaga anusaya or latent tendency of desire for becoming 3. patigha anusaya or latent tendency of aversion 4. maana anusaya or latent tendency of conceit 5. ditthi anusaya or latent tendency of wrong view 6. vicikicchaa anusaya or latent tendency of doubt 7. avijjaa anusaya or latent tendency of ignorance These 7 latent tendencies are like roots of plants. But when these roots of plants are eradicated there will be no more plantation as there is nothing left regarding those plants. Sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge eradicates 1. ditthi anusaya or 'the latent tendency of wrong view' 2. vicikicchaanusaya or 'the latent tendency of doubt'. Sakadaagaami magga naana or once-returning path-knowledge thins out 3. kaamaraagaanusaya or 'the latent tendency of desire for sensuality 4. patighaanusaya or 'the latent tendency of aversion' while anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge eradicates these 2 anusayas or latent tendencies. Arahatta magga naana or 'eradicating path-knowledge' eradicates all remaining anusayas of 5. bhavaraagaanusaya or 'the latent tendency of desire for becoming' 6. maanaausaya or 'the latent tendency of conceit' 7. avijjaanusaya or 'the latent tendency of ignorance'. As long as these 7 anusaya are not eradicated they lie dormant and there is potential that when conditions and circumstances favours these 7 anusaya stimulate akusala dhamma to arise and then there arise grosser forms of akusalas in individuals who have not eradicated these 7 anusaya. All brahmas are pure and they stay in jhaana. When they are in jhaana there is no akusala. But if they are not arahats and they are puthujana then there will be all 7 anusayas and when they are not in jhaana they may develop anusaya into akusala dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49161 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Kamma and the Law gazita2002 Hello Howard, Actually after I had posted I thought of this very situation and without going into any details I do agree with your comments. I currently have my own private 'war' going on with the state health dept. and quietly and without fuss refuse to carry out or rather carry on, in the manner in which is expected of us 'dogs' at the end of the line. I'm doing nothing illegal and I'm harming no one, just trying to save my sanity. O man, its tuff at the bottom as well as the top :-) patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita (and Herman) - > > Azita, I'm addressing myself here to the part of your answer I quote > below, and not to Herman's question, to which I previously contributed my two > cents. > I would say that a good person, Buddhist or not, would abide (or not) by > the laws of that country depending on what those laws are. There are and have > been some countries whose laws should not only not be abided by but should be > resisted by moral people. > I have no doubt that you agree with this, and you simply weren't > considering evil edicts of evil nation-states in your reply. It is wrong to "render > unto Caesar what is Caesar's" when what is claimed to be due Caesar truly isn't. > I am just adding this, because I think it is a point worth making. > > With metta, > Howard 49162 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Kamma and the Law gazita2002 hello Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Azita, > > What is the purpose in punishing individuals for things "they have > done" if deep down you really believe that it is just unfolding of > conditionality? I accept that it wouldn't go down well in court to > argue the reality of the situation, but why be a Buddhist if you feel > your social obligations are greater than your obligation to understand > reality and live accordingly? > > I'm not arguing, just wanting to find out what goes on. > > Kind Regards A. I wonder if in this particular scenario, the Buddhist found the social obligations just too difficult to manage and therefore changed jobs, or rather than being that dramatic, just asked to be taken off a particular case due to personal belief reasons. you may have read my reply to Howard, re my own work situation and have actually requested a transfer from a very difficult work area to one not so stressful, [ I hope ] patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 49163 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:53am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas' study corner 255- accumulations htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thanks for your interest and feedback. > op 22-08-2005 13:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. With respect, Htoo Naing 49164 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha gazita2002 Hello Nina and Sarah, this is a tricky area. I wonder if the sati and panna that knows the kusula of samatha, knows only that and not any other reality, bec the understanding of all realities has never been developed. For example, we talk about pariyatti, the intellectual understanding of all realities; maybe this has never been undertaken and developed in the being who has the sati and panna of the degree of samatha.???? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Azita, > As far as I understood also for samatha sati sampajañña that discerns > directly, without thinking, kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is > necessary. True, it does not know them as non-self, but I believe that there > is more here than merely thinking about them. > But perhaps this is also what you mean? I may have misunderstood you. > Perhaps I get confused by your words conceptual. A most difficult word for > me and it can have many different meanings. > Strong sati and pannña are necessary as the Visuddhimagga says in its > treatment of anapana sati samaadhi. In samatha there is paññaa of the level > of samatha, but there are sati and paññaa, not thinking of concepts. > Nina. > op 22-08-2005 10:00 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > So in samatha, the panna developed does not know kusala states as > > realities. This can only be by the development of satipatthana. Even when > > we say that in samatha development, panna understands what calm is and how > > it can be attained, when the hindrances arise, what the jhana factors are, > > how the hindrances are overcome by the jhana factors and so one, it's > > conceptual right understanding and awareness. 49165 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 497 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I like the way you treat d and e very much. Good reminders. > Just a typo at c: instead of ayatana it is samyojana. > c gives unwise attention as the reason for their arising. > No one owns them. > Nina. > op 22-08-2005 13:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > c). Why these 10 ayatana arise? > > > > Because they have not been eradicated and because 6 external sense > > bases are inappropriately attended. > > > > d). How do these 10 samyojana arise? > > > > They arise unnoticed, instantaneously and overwhelmingly. > > > > e). Whose are they? > > > > No one owns any samyojana. Samyojanas are dhamma. Dhamma are not self. > > They are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind comment. I think I have posted this message with other name at DSG and you already replied that. I was not aware of that typo. Yes, it is typo error and hope others understand that. This post was re-posted so that numbers are in serial order and this will make easy tracing for all. With respect, Htoo Naing 49166 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Htoo Naing - > > >I am Htoo Naing. I just reply this just to make you know this is my > >new mail address. > > I am pleased to know Htoo Naing who has got a new email address. > > Htoo, I hope you did not look at one tree and miss the forest. The > word 'intellect' was used by Nyanaponika Thera for panna (for > whatever reason I don't know). But the important dhamma in the > Venerable's article is how and why panna should be balanced with > saddha. Please read my DSG message # 49013. > > > Respectfully, > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your kind link. Please add my new address into your address book. It is 'htoo' 'dot' 'naing' 'at' 'gmail' 'dot' 'com'. Panna and saddha have to be in balance. I have read that all 5 indriyas have to be in balance as well. Example can be seen in case of Venerable Ananda. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49167 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Htoo Naing - > > >I am Htoo Naing. I just reply this just to make you know this is my > >new mail address. > > I am pleased to know Htoo Naing who has got a new email address. > > Htoo, I hope you did not look at one tree and miss the forest. The > word 'intellect' was used by Nyanaponika Thera for panna (for > whatever reason I don't know). But the important dhamma in the > Venerable's article is how and why panna should be balanced with > saddha. Please read my DSG message # 49013. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep ======== Dear Tep, Reply to # 49013: ['you' here is not Htoo but someone else_see #49013] Not so long ago I asked you a question about balancing faith (saddha) with wisdom(pañña). Today I read an article by the late Ven. Nyanaponika and thought of you. A number of issues we discussed in the past are related to the following excerpt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The excerpt: "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). If intellect remains without the confidence, devotion and zeal of faith, it will stop short at a mere theoretical understanding and intellectual appreciation of teachings meant to be lived and not only thought or talked about. In the words of our simile: intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' an activity with a very busy and important appearance but with few actual results. Intellect separated from faith will lack the firm belief in its own power to be the guide on the path of life. Without this inner conviction it will hesitate to follow in earnest its own conclusions and commands; it will lack the courage to make an actual start on the task of 'crossing over.' "Faith as a supplementary quality, supported by the vigor and endurance of energy (viriya), will give wings to the intellect, enabling it to rise above the barrenness of unapplied knowledge and the futile wordy wars of conceptual thought. In exchange, intellect will give to faith discriminative judgment and reliable guidance. It will prevent faith from becoming exhausted, from wasting its energies by ineffective emotional effusions and misdirected efforts. Therefore, faith and intellect should always be harmonized. With right mindfulness keeping them balanced, the two together will prove to be ideal companions, able to meet by their combined efforts any dangers and difficulties on the road to liberation. Courageous Faith by Nyanaponika Thera From The Vision of the Dhamma (ISBN 955-24-0108-9) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very good article. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How do you like it? I like "intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' ", lacking the commitment to cross over, and "wordy wars of conceptual thought". Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Tep. Actually there is no adding, no comment by me here. This is just a reply that just to reveal I have read it. Thanks again for being a good friend, With respect, Htoo Naing 49168 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 499 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There come the last stock of akusala dhamma. The first 8 stocks of akusala have been discussed in the previous posts. 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) Kilesa or defilements or stain or soil are all akusala dhamma. They soil the mind to be impure. They stain the mind with 10 different taints. When there arise kilesa or defilements in the mind, the mind is no more pure. There are 10 kilesa dhamma or 10 defilements. They are 1. lobha kilesa or 'defilement of attachment' 2. dosa kilesa or 'defilement of aversion' 3. moha kilesa or 'defilement of ignorance' 4. maana kilesa or 'defilement of conceit' 5. ditthi kilesa or 'defilement of wrong-view' 6. vicikicchaa kilesa or 'defilement of doubt' 7. thina kilesa or 'defilement of sloth' 8. uddhacca kilesa or 'defilement of upset' 9. ahirika kilesa or 'defilement of shamelessness' 10. anottappa kilesa or 'defilement of fearlessness' As soon as these kilesa or defilements arise the mind is soiled and stained with impurities of these different forms of akusala dhamma. As long as these dhamma manifest in the mind that mind is defiled mind and it will not be pure. Impure mind will not lead to peaceful mind. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49169 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: Wordy Wars of Conceptual Thought buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I read your last two messages with appreciation. > Htoo: > > Thanks Tep. Actually there is no adding, no comment by me here. This > is just a reply that just to reveal I have read it. > > Thanks again for being a good friend, > Tep: You're welcome! Thank you for your kind thought. You are my good friend and an exceptional dhamma friend as well. Warm regards with appreciation, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Reply to # 49013: ['you' here is not Htoo but someone else_see #49013] > > Not so long ago I asked you a question about balancing faith (saddha) with wisdom(pañña). Today I read an article by the late Ven. > Nyanaponika and thought of you. A number of issues we discussed in the past are related to the following excerpt. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The excerpt: > > "Two factors of inner progress which supplement, support and balance each other are intellect (pañña) and faith (saddha). If intellect > remains without the confidence, devotion and zeal of faith, it will > stop short at a mere theoretical understanding and intellectual > appreciation of teachings meant to be lived and not only thought or > talked about. > > In the words of our simile: intellect, if not helped by the hero of > faith, will merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' an > activity with a very busy and important appearance but with few > actual results. Intellect separated from faith will lack the firm > belief in its own power to be the guide on the path of life. Without > this inner conviction it will hesitate to follow in earnest its own > conclusions and commands; it will lack the courage to make an actual start on the task of 'crossing over.' > > "Faith as a supplementary quality, supported by the vigor and > endurance of energy (viriya), will give wings to the intellect, > enabling it to rise above the barrenness of unapplied knowledge and the futile wordy wars of conceptual thought. In exchange, intellect > will give to faith discriminative judgment and reliable guidance. It > will prevent faith from becoming exhausted, from wasting its energies > by ineffective emotional effusions and misdirected efforts. > > Therefore, faith and intellect should always be harmonized. With > right mindfulness keeping them balanced, the two together will prove > to be ideal companions, able to meet by their combined efforts any > dangers and difficulties on the road to liberation. > > Courageous Faith by Nyanaponika Thera > From The Vision of the Dhamma (ISBN 955-24-0108-9) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Very good article. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: How do you like it? > > I like "intellect, if not helped by the hero of faith, will > merely 'run up and down the bank of the stream,' ", lacking the > commitment to cross over, and "wordy wars of conceptual thought". > > Warm regards, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 49170 From: "frank" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:03am Subject: RE: [dsg] Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? dhamma_service Hi Chris, "DF: Recently I have been studying more about the Antarabhava/Bardo/Chuin state as taught in different Mahayana schools. I had been under the impression that based on the Abhidhamma, that the Theravada traditions eschewed this concept in favor of immediate rebirth. While searching online, I came across this thread on the Yahoo Pali group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/7751?viscount=100 excerpt: ------------------------------------------------------ Fk: I was just going to suggest that your friend wander over to the pali group and look at the archive, but it looks like the thread there is what stirred his interest and question in the first place. The only way anyone can really be convinced on this topic is to open the divine eye and witness in person, confirm the vision with others who've opened the divine eye. Anything else just comes down to confidence on the limited achievements of western science or confidence in Theravada commentarial literature, which is a hodge podge of views of people who may or may not be ariya. The antarabhava state makes a lot of sense to me, otherwise the prospect of a favorable rebirth (even for those with great kamma) seems infitessimally remote. Maybe it's a very good thing to disbelieve existence of antarabhava, as the realization of how incredibly unlikely and fortunate this human rebirth is would spur on those disbelievers to prioritize their Buddhist practice and concentrate on what is really important in their practice. -fk 49171 From: "frank" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:17am Subject: dhamma soup for the feeling (part 1) dhamma_service If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature, bent towards greed, he will not find deliverance. 49172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth. nilovg Dear Joop, It may be helpful for you to read the many suttas on rebirth. Thank you for your good wishes. Nina. op 23-08-2005 11:26 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Nina: One life is too short to develop right understanding, and with > rebirth there is another opportunity to develop wisdom. > > Joop: You are right, but these are no arguments that rebirth exists; > it are arguments that life with (the idea of) rebirth is more > agreeable. 49173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha nilovg Dear Azita, We also have to think of people in the Buddha's time who listened to him and developed both samatha and vipassana. So, it is difficult to say something about samatha in general. The person who only develops samatha and never heard about vipassana must still learn a great deal about kusala citta and akusala citta. He has to know their different characteristics not just on a theoretical level. When I say characteristic I do not mean the three general characteristics. Nina. op 23-08-2005 13:55 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > For example, we talk about pariyatti, the intellectual > understanding of all realities; maybe this has never been undertaken > and developed in the being who has the sati and panna of the degree > of samatha.???? 49174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control nilovg Hi Tep, Larry, Herman, op 23-08-2005 04:01 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I guess Larry is saying that there are only conditioned dhammas > (according to Dependent Origination), therefore there is no "agent" to > perform the control function. > > Nina may be happy to comment a little on the Larry's view. ^_^ ------ N: I wholeheartedly agree with Larry. My comment: part of the post I sent to Htoo yesterday, and the clue is in the last sentence: should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: *** Nina. 49175 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:23pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: If you don't have control over the > dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from falling > to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc. M: ..or even controlling the steering wheel. What I have understood is through meditation, by observing as the buddha described what happens in my body and mind. If you were to be mindfull when washing dishes, you will see a strings conscious moments linked through causation arising and passing away. You might see a spot on a dish, then you will see intention arising to clean that spot, (that will obviously have input from previous learning of what to do when you see a spot when washing dishes), then (ie- this will give rise to) you will see the intention arising to move your hand to clean the spot and so on. You will then sense the moving of the hand. You can see how all this is linked in a cause and effect manner, bringing in multiple causes to bear upon the next arising moment of consciousness. This is why I said that even though there is no control in an ultimate sense, it is present in a conventional sense. Yes, and I agree with you 'control' is necessary for the path. It is samma vayama. take care Matheesha 49176 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi KenH, > M: > When I read the suttas however I dont always see this reflected > in the Buddha's speech. I think that is his skill as a teacher. In one > sense when someone knows something well, he is just the person who > would be able to put it very simply, as well. > > K:> That sounds right to me. I feel sure, however, that there cannot be > correct understanding of suttas unless there is correct understanding > of Abhidhamma. In essence, all Dhamma is Abhidhamma. M: Hmm.. I'm not sure if the suttas, ie conversations that the buddha had with various people always meant that the listener had to have abhidhamma knowledge. That would be appropriate in some instances but in others I would have thought it would be rather impractical. --------------------------------- K:> When we learn Dhamma, however, we learn that there are only > conditioned namas and rupas - no self. What would you suggest we do > in order to put that learning into practice? Would you want us to > practise in a way that says there is a self? > > No, I don't think you would, because Dhamma practice, being > ultimately real, is not like nail hammering, which is ultimately > illusory. There are only conditioned dhammas - so the Dhamma is put > into practice when panna (right understanding) is conditioned to > arise - not before. M: Yes, I think I understand: if there is no doer,and no doing what more is there to do? I would however say that there is something to be done, further than just understanding. That is the irradication of defilements. No amount of understanding is going to do away with that. That takes something more than just knowledge. This is why I made the distinction of understanding everything about striking a nail with a hammer, and actually striking it as well. One can know everything an arahath knows, but still not be an arahath as is mentioned in the suttas ('a man who sees the water well in the desert, but not one who has drunk from it yet'). Sorry cant find the refferences right away. ------------------------------ K:> If I understand correctly, lokuttara jhana is a synonym for Eightfold- > path-consciousness. Eight-fold-path-consciousness, (which is > supramundane) is always accompanied by an intensely strong form of > samadhi-cetasika (at a level found in the first jhana or higher). And > so Eightfold-path-consciousness is sometimes called lokuttara jhana. > Simple as that! :-) M: Eightfold path consciousness is conditioned by the path, and so is the phala which follows that. Only nibbaana is unconditioned. I might possibly be mistaken here, so please correct me if this is the case. But I do understand that the magga and phala citta are lokuttara? It's interesting that a magga citta is called lokuttara jhaana. So it is not simply a jhana which is reached by an ariya. Would those be mundane jhana? metta Matheesha 49177 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the feeling (part 1) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature, bent towards greed, he will not find deliverance. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Frank, Joy is not feeling. But joy co-exists with feeling. There are feeling without joy but still calm feeling like tranquility. As you said when the nature oif feeling is known then there is tendency to bend toward greediness. When in greediness there is less chanceofdeliverance. 1. contact 2. feeling 3. volition 4. perception 5. fixation (one-pointedness) 6. mental-life 7. attention always co-exist with any citta while 1. application (toward the object) 2. sustained application (not to depart from the object) 3. effort 4. joy 5. zeal 6. decision may or may not co-exist with citta. Joy (piiti) and feeling(vedana) are different. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49178 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 500) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There come the last stock of akusala dhamma. The first 8 stocks of akusala have been discussed in the previous posts. 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There are 10 kilesa dhamma or 10 defilements. They are 1. lobha kilesa or 'defilement of attachment' 2. dosa kilesa or 'defilement of aversion' 3. moha kilesa or 'defilement of ignorance' 4. maana kilesa or 'defilement of conceit' 5. ditthi kilesa or 'defilement of wrong-view' 6. vicikicchaa kilesa or 'defilement of doubt' 7. thina kilesa or 'defilement of sloth' 8. uddhacca kilesa or 'defilement of upset' 9. ahirika kilesa or 'defilement of shamelessness' 10. anottappa kilesa or 'defilement of fearlessness' 5) and 6) or ditthi kilesa and vicikicchaa kilesa are eadicated by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge. 2) or dosa kilesa is eradicated by anagami magga naana or non-returning path- knowledge. All other defilements or kilesas are eradicated by arahatta magga naana or eradicating path-knowledge. These defilements are 1. lobha kilesa 2. moha kilesa 3. maana kilesa 4. thina kilesa 5. uddhacca kilesa 6. akirika kilesa 7. anottappa kilesa By examining kilesa or defilements it is apparent that all other lower ariyas or sikkha puggalas are still being soiled with many defilement. This is quite evident that sotapams, sakadagams, and anagams all will have these 7 kilesa even though they have eradicated certain kilesa with their respective path-knowledge. By examning kilesa it is apparent that only arahats are pure. So far there are 9 different stocks of akusala dhamma and they have been explained. All these akusala are in essence cetasika dhamma. They arise with citta and because of their arising citta has different names like lobha-citta, dosa-citta, moha-citta, maana-citta, tanhaa- citta, ditthi-citta, and son. So all these are just various presentations of cetasika dhamma ultimately. There are dhamma that are friends or peers to each other and they have similar implications. They will be discussed in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49179 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > DSG Post 44248 > ============================= > To which DF replied: > > "Thank you for the selected posts. They were well presented and > definitely fleshed out the orthodox argument against antarabhava. It > does seem to revolve largely around the Abhidhamma passage. > If you wouldn't mind posting the message to your other group I would > be interested in hearing the responses. The most compelling source > in the link I posted was this one from the Kutuhalasala Sutta: > > 'And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet > reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance > then?" > > "Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in > another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is > its sustenance at that time."' > > DF: It leaves a little room for interpretation." > ======================================== > Chris: I remember asking something like this myself a few years > ago ... and would be interested in, and grateful, for member's > clarifying this question for DF. > +++++++==== Dear DF, When the Buddha said this (about a being) he is distinguishing between different moments, but in conventional language.We should know that a 'being' lasts for only the briest amonut of time - almost beyond imagination how quick is the arising and passing of dhammas. To me it is surprising that apparently some Thervada monks claim that there are intermediate states lasting days or whatever, it is a type of self and permanence view that believes states can last. Monks in ancient times who brought such an idea up in ancient times were paravadi (outside sect), not theravada. Robertk 49180 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? dacostacharles Hi all In response to: >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. Not so, friend, but Rather: They are inseparable & mutually dependent: What ever one feels, perceives, thinks, attends to, analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... > This sounds like a DO relationship to me (forward and reverse relationship). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bhikkhu Samahita Sent: Tuesday, 09 August, 2005 07:15 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 49181 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 0:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger dacostacharles Hi all That may not be true, some times awareness feeds an emotion. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of frank Sent: Sunday, 21 August, 2005 19:29 To: 4nobletruths@yahoogroups.com; Beverly Kuan (bev_kuan@...); dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; Susan Kuan; 'hisayo'; Mike Chu; 'tracy young'; William Chu; 'ying lin' Subject: [dsg] dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?" Luang Pu answered, "There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own." 49183 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H. (and Matheesha and Htoo) - I read your message # 49083 (a dialogue with Matheesha) and am impressed by the following remark. KH : If I understand correctly, lokuttara jhana is a synonym for Eightfold- path-consciousness. Eight-fold-path-consciousness, (which is supramundane) is always accompanied by an intensely strong form of samadhi-cetasika (at a level found in the first jhana or higher). And so Eightfold-path-consciousness is sometimes called lokuttara jhana. Simple as that! :-) Tep: I , in general, agree with your linking of the "eightfold path consciousness" with "strong form of samadhi-cetasika". However, it is not clear in your message whether one may make the following inferences. Do you care to respond? 1. All kinds of Stream-winner must have attained at least the 1st rupa- jhana. 2. Samma-ditthi (right concentration) is the same as fulfilment of the four rupa-jhanas (see DN 22 for the definition of right concentration). Htoo, for example, disagrees with both. But I am not sure he disagrees with your "linking" above. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: (snipped) as that! :-) > > Ken H 49184 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D. - You wrote : > This sounds like a DO relationship to me (forward and reverse relationship). > Tep: How so? Warm regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all > > In response to: > > >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. > > Not so, friend, but Rather: > They are inseparable & mutually dependent: > What ever one feels, perceives, thinks, attends to, > analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... > > > 49185 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. mlnease Hi Tep, Excellent, thanks. It seems so familiar, I must've read it long ago and I thank you for the reminder. A truly fundamental topic I think. mike > Hi, Mike - > > The mental-data craving is the sixth kind of craving, and the visible- > data craving being the first. If I understand your brief request correctly, > we can apply the same format for the visible-data craving by simply > substituting 'visible-data craving' by 'mental-data craving' into the para > 235. The Vism doesn't separately discuss the mental-data craving. > > Please let me know if I misinterpreted your request. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Hi Tep and Nina, > > > > Well-cited, thanks. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Any texts > > relating to the same thing regarding 'mental-data craving'? Otherwise > this > > pertains only to paramattha dhammas and not concepts I think. > > > > mike > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tep Sastri" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. > > > > > Hi Mike and Nina - > > > > > > Your discussion on tanha : kama-, bhava- and vibhava- tanha is > very informative. It helps me recall Acariya Buddhaghosa's shorter > > > explanation [Vism. XVII, 235, page 584] > > > > > > "When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire > > > enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of > the eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same > visible- data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes > that same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for > becoming. > > > When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that > same object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for > > > nonbecoming; for it is the greed accompanying the annihilation view > > > that is called craving for non-becoming." {Same for sound, etc.} > > -- M. Nease P.O. Box 202 Lilliwaup, WA 98555 (206) 441-1323 49186 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:50pm Subject: Vism.XIV,186 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [MATERIALITY] 186. Herein, the word 'whatever' includes without exception. 'Materiality' prevents over-generalization. Thus materiality is comprised without exception by the two expressions. Then he undertakes its exposition as 'past, future, and present,' etc.; for some of it is classed as past and some as future, and so on. So also in the case of feeling, and so on. Herein, the materiality called (i) 'past' is fourfold, according to (a) extent, (b) continuity, (c) period, and (d) moment. Likewise (ii) the 'future' and (iii) the 'present'. 49187 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:58pm Subject: Objects liable to cause delusion corvus121 Greetings all In AN V 144 (no 105 in The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Nyanaponika and BB, p 139) it says in "The Repulsive and the Unrepulsive": "...And for what reason should he reject both the repulsive and the unrepulsive and abide in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending? (He should do so with the thought:) 'In any situation, anywhere and to any extent, may lust never arise in me for lust- inducing objects, nor hatred towards hate-inducing objects, nor delusion towards objects liable to cause delusion!'" This is dealing with the ariya iddhi 'noble magic' which AA apparently says can and should be practised by intelligent sub- ariyans experienced in insight meditation. At first glance, it seemed to me that the 3 types of objects must be pannatti/concept. But, in "Realities and Concepts" Khun Sujin points out that we can like the colour we experience with visible object etc. I get the impression, though, that the ariya iddhi is like metta in taking a concept or conventional designation as object. Corrections welcome. Are pannatti mind-door objects "liable to" delude or induce lust or hate in a way that paramattha mind-door objects aren't? If so, is this due to the 'own nature' of the paramattha objects in any way? TIA for any feedback. Apologies if I have unnecessarily confused you all. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 49188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - I know it feels good when I read an agreeable reply. But it is probable that there might be a hidden danger - the one who agrees with me and I might be both wrong! So please keep me well informed about what you have learned from your discussion with others with opposing views, especially when they can prove you wrong. I'll be very glad to know why. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > T: If you don't have control over the > > dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from > falling > > to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc. > > M: ..or even controlling the steering wheel. What I have understood > is through meditation, by observing as the buddha described what > happens in my body and mind. If you were to be mindfull when washing > dishes, you will see a strings conscious moments linked through > causation arising and passing away. You might see a spot on a dish, > then you will see intention arising to clean that spot, (that will > obviously have input from previous learning of what to do when you > see a spot when washing dishes), then (ie- this will give rise to) > you will see the intention arising to move your hand to clean the > spot and so on. You will then sense the moving of the hand. You can > see how all this is linked in a cause and effect manner, bringing in > multiple causes to bear upon the next arising moment of > consciousness. This is why I said that even though there is no > control in an ultimate sense, it is present in a conventional sense. > > Yes, and I agree with you 'control' is necessary for the path. It is > samma vayama. > > take care > > Matheesha 49189 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Mike - >Mike: .... I thank you for the reminder. You're more than welcome! I always appreciate hearing from you and reading your dhamma. I am very much interested in what you think about the on-going discussion on 'control' and 'degrees of control' on things in the world, including the sankhata dhamma. It started with Matheesha and Htoo. Then Larry and Ken H. etc. participated. Best wishes! Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@z... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Excellent, thanks. It seems so familiar, I must've read it long ago and I thank you for the reminder. A truly fundamental topic I think. > > mike > > > Hi, Mike - > > > > The mental-data craving is the sixth kind of craving, and the visible- > > data craving being the first. If I understand your brief request correctly, we can apply the same format for the visible-data craving by simply substituting 'visible-data craving' by 'mental-data craving' into the para> 235. The Vism doesn't separately discuss the mental-data craving. > > > > Please let me know if I misinterpreted your request. > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ====== (snipped) 49190 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object kenhowardau Hi Herman, ------------------ H: > Would anything change if we removed "intrinsically un/desirable" as a qualification? Are there just not nama and rupa? ----------------- Yes, I think everything would change. The result of good action is that namas experience desirable rupas, and the result of evil action is that namas experience undesirable rupas. If you removed that, you would create mayhem. -------------------------------- H: > I see the qualification of "intrinsically un/desirable" as serving no function other than a pitfall for the greedy or aversive mind. -------------------------------- Well, maybe so, but many Buddhists would strongly disagree. I am thinking of those who admit to being interested purely in making merit for desirable rebirth. As we know, an arahant is completely impartial with regard to desirable and undesirable. It is only when we reach that stage that our kamma will cease to be good or bad, and will become neutral. Ken H 49191 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,186 / Time Concept & Ultimate Realities buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - It is likely that the presentation is not detailed enough to fully make sense, or my intelligence level is not high enough to understand the presentation (without getting my Visuddhimagga from the shelf and read it again). Is 'past, future, and present' referring to states of the same materiality, or is it denoting several different materialities that arise and dissolve at the appropriate time instants? If the latter case is true, how can different things apprear as same solid thing through time? In what ways does 'continuity' relate to 'period' and 'moment'? In fact, how does the time concept affect the ultimate reality? Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > [MATERIALITY] > > 186. Herein, the word 'whatever' includes without exception. > 'Materiality' prevents over-generalization. Thus materiality is > comprised without exception by the two expressions. Then he undertakes > its exposition as 'past, future, and present,' etc.; for some of it is > classed as past and some as future, and so on. So also in the case of > feeling, and so on. > > Herein, the materiality called (i) 'past' is fourfold, according to (a) > extent, (b) continuity, (c) period, and (d) moment. Likewise (ii) the > 'future' and (iii) the 'present'. 49192 From: mlnease@... Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion mlnease Hi Andrew, Nice to hear from you-- > Are pannatti mind-door objects "liable to" delude or induce lust or > hate in a way that paramattha mind-door objects aren't? If so, is > this due to the 'own nature' of the paramattha objects in any way? Great question I think and my answer is 'no'--ignorance, desire and aversion are just as likely to arise with regard to a concept, designation or convention as to a paramattha dhamma. So the akusala is real regardless of the object. Unfortunately. Corrections welcome. mike 49193 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control philofillet Hi all Just popping in at this point in the thread to wonder out loud how on earth there can be control when there is no self? Dhamma with belief in self sounds like Christianity wihout belief in Christ. There are crossroads in daily life, lots of them everyday, where we find ourselves with the opportunity to choose between doing something, or saying something, or even sometimes thinking something unwholesome, and we decide not to do so. Do you call that control? Not if we have right understanding. It's conditions at work, the conditioning power of the Buddha's teaching and other wholesome factors rising for a moment, giving us another mindfulness to be aware of our options. In the next moment, other conditioned factors may, will probably arise. There is no controlling this and to think there is to be oblivious to basic Dhamma, in my opinion. As for the examples that are inevitably mentionned at DSG such as steering a car, I don't like to delve into psychology but even in psychology we learn about conditioned learning. From infancy there has been a conditioning of our behaviour, learning what works and what doesn't. When you steer a car you don't do it with an idea of control unless you're a bit peculiar or have a tendency to think too much about superfluous things. You just it because you have been conditioned to do it that way. The steering arises, so to speak. You don't generate the desire and ability to steer! And that is all the clearer when one reflects in the light of the Buddha's teaching of conditionality. No control, of course not. But the inspiring potential to learn and reflect in the light of the Buddha's teaching in a way that leads to the gradual eradication of defilements and the cultivation of wholesome factors. But not control, because who controls? There is no self. I thought that was a given. Whether we act with an illusion (delusion?) of control or not, with an illusion of self or not, there is no self, and no control. That's beyond dispute if we have taken refuge in the Dhamma, isn't it? Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Matheesha - > > I know it feels good when I read an agreeable reply. But it is probable > that there might be a hidden danger - the one who agrees with me and I > might be both wrong! > > So please keep me well informed about what you have learned from > your discussion with others with opposing views, especially when they > can prove you wrong. I'll be very glad to know why. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ========= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > T: If you don't have control over the > > > dishes while washing them, how can you prevent the dishes from > > falling > > > to the ground (via gravity)? How can you make them clean? etc. > > > > M: ..or even controlling the steering wheel. What I have understood > > is through meditation, by observing as the buddha described what > > happens in my body and mind. If you were to be mindfull when > washing > > dishes, you will see a strings conscious moments linked through > > causation arising and passing away. You might see a spot on a dish, > > then you will see intention arising to clean that spot, (that will > > obviously have input from previous learning of what to do when you > > see a spot when washing dishes), then (ie- this will give rise to) > > you will see the intention arising to move your hand to clean the > > spot and so on. You will then sense the moving of the hand. You can > > see how all this is linked in a cause and effect manner, bringing in > > multiple causes to bear upon the next arising moment of > > consciousness. This is why I said that even though there is no > > control in an ultimate sense, it is present in a conventional sense. > > > > Yes, and I agree with you 'control' is necessary for the path. It is > > samma vayama. > > > > take care > > > > Matheesha 49194 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,186 / Time Concept & Ultimate Realities lbidd2 Tep: "Is 'past, future, and present' referring to states of the same materiality, or is it denoting several different materialities that arise and dissolve at the appropriate time instants? If the latter case is true, how can different things apprear as same solid thing through time? In what ways does 'continuity' relate to 'period' and 'moment'? In fact, how does the time concept affect the ultimate reality?" Hi Tep, All these questions are answered in the next 5 paragraphs. This is an exposition of several ways of understanding past, present, and future. Nina will have more to say. Larry 49195 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Input 'I'-dentification! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Overwhelmed, fooled & deceived by simple Sensing! Touched by contact, while blinded by ignorance, the unlearned and untrained ordinary person conceives this false & fatal assumption: 'By my eye, ear, nose, tongue and body I clearly sense this & that! Therefore: "I am"! I perceive this & that: Therefore "Do I Exist".! I feel this & that: Therefore: "These feelings are mine and me".....! I experience this & that: Therefore: "These experiences I am"......!' Then he proliferates this self-deception even further by breeding: "I am this eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind right here & now!" "I always was & have been this eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind!" "In the future, I will be this eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind!" "I am this form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness!" "I was this form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness!" "I will be form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness!" Thereby consolidating the false & constructed notion of a stable Ego! Finally he externalizes this non-existent entity 'Me' by comparing it: "I am equal to this and that...", and "I am better than this and that...", "I am worse than this and that...", thereby creating first egoism, then pride and arrogance, and moreover detrimental feeling of inferiority... Clinging to this hypothetical 'I'-idea, which he mistakes for real, he becomes desperate, when whatever it is, he identifies with, changes, decays, becomes otherwise, fades away and finally disappears... He is terrified by the thought: "It is 'I' & 'Me' who changes, decays, becomes otherwise, fades away and finally disappears..." So big is the power of this unnoticed idea, that it produces fear, anxiety & horror!!! There arises no such great panic, when one understands it as it really is: The six inputs by the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind are not mine, this is not what I am, this neither is nor belongs to my or any other self! This form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness is not mine, this is not what I am, this neither is nor belongs to my or any other self!!! Fundamentally releasing from an invisible prison is such understanding... ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49196 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Dear Nina, I have been attempting to have a discussion about control as influence/dominance. Not getting very far. You only need to mention control and everyone's off on an atta tangent. It seems that some words have a very dominating influence :-). Could you say a little, or a lot if you like, about the predominance condition. Is it incorrect to say that some mental factors are of greater influence than others? Are some factors chiefs and some factors Indians? Kind Regards Herman On 24/08/05, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, Larry, Herman, > op 23-08-2005 04:01 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > I guess Larry is saying that there are only conditioned dhammas > > (according to Dependent Origination), therefore there is no "agent" to > > perform the control function. > > > > Nina may be happy to comment a little on the Larry's view. ^_^ > ------ > N: I wholeheartedly agree with Larry. > My comment: part of the post I sent to Htoo yesterday, and the clue is in > the last sentence: > > time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the wheels> should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they > form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: without there being a concurrence of circumstances, such as existence as a > human being, the rise of the Buddha, and the stability of the good Law, > etc.... > It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of > kusala citta and it points out . It > stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and > earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very > difficult: lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration.> > Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of > many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each > performing their own function. > By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution > towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with > regard to samaya as condition: conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one�s own > will is subdued.> > *** > Nina. 49197 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 257- Attachment/lobha (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] The Buddha taught people to be mindful of whatever reality appears. When akusala dhamma appears it can be object of awareness and right understanding. Some people may feel guilty when there is attachment to pleasant things and they may be inclined to think that they should not be mindful of lobha. If we have accumulations for arts such as painting or music should we give these up in order to develop vipassanå? That would not be the right practice. We should know the realities of our daily life. One person has accumulations for art, another is skilful in cooking or writing, we all have different accumulations. A layman does not live the monk’s life, he could not force himself to live as a monk. We should develop understanding in our daily life, because then we will see that whatever arises, does so because of its own conditions. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49198 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object egberdina Hi Ken, Thanks for your comments. A bit of a warning. Here and there I am being a little bit naughty :-) On 24/08/05, kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Herman, > > ------------------ > H: > Would anything change if we removed "intrinsically un/desirable" > as a qualification? Are there just not nama and rupa? > ----------------- > > Yes, I think everything would change. The result of good action is > that namas experience desirable rupas, and the result of evil action > is that namas experience undesirable rupas. I detect a hint of circularity here. Action is just namas and rupas, right? Is an intrinsically good action knowable as such before it has produced a result? Or will it be up to the accountants and lawyers to determine which are the good ones, in the absence of a definite connection between cause and effect :-). Is an intrinsically desirable rupa knowable before its cause is known? Or do we again rely on the intrinsically good burghers amongst us, and their judgment, on the matter? > If you removed that, you would create mayhem. Mayhem is a rather interesting way to describe emptiness. Because that's all that is left when you suspend your judgments about the world. > > -------------------------------- > H: > I see the qualification of "intrinsically un/desirable" as > serving no function other than a pitfall for the greedy or aversive > mind. > -------------------------------- > > Well, maybe so, but many Buddhists would strongly disagree. I am > thinking of those who admit to being interested purely in making > merit for desirable rebirth. What qualifies a person as a Buddhist, would you reckon? Perhaps I am a little bit restrictive, but I wouldn't put someone who has dispensed with silabatta-paramasa on the same footing as someone who believes in magic. > > As we know, an arahant is completely impartial with regard to > desirable and undesirable. It is only when we reach that stage that > our kamma will cease to be good or bad, and will become neutral. > If one is unwilling to dispense with judgment/determination at this very moment, for even a split second, why believe that that willingness will spontaneously overpower you at some future time? Noone ever becomes enlightened against their will, you know :-) Kind Regards Herman 49199 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:00am Subject: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends,