51200 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: As I see it, my only fault has > been in not reading some of James's messages as carefully as I should > have. That has caused me to misrepresent his position on at least two > occasions. James: That's okay, it happens. Thanks for admitting this rather than trying to cover it up. But, apart from that, my motives have been as pure as the > driven snow. :-) James: I don't think that Tep is questioning your motives, he is just pointing out that you are twisting people's words around. And you do it again! See below. > > -------------------- > T: > Swee Boon to Phil (dsg # 51091): > > >Isn't it by means of conceit and craving that the Buddha-to-be > >perfected the paramis and achieved Buddhahood? > > >Isn't it because of conceit that the Buddha-to-be thought that he > >would achieve Buddhahood just like all previous Buddhas? > > >Isn't it because of craving that the Buddha-to-be left home in search > >of the Noble Ancient Path? > > > Dear Ken and Sarah, will you two be kind enough to answer the above > three questions for me, please? > -------------------- > > My answers are, "No" "No" and "No." > > Sometimes a question needs further explanation. For example, if James > had asked those same questions, my answers would have > been, "Yes" "Yes" and "Yes." > > In these contexts, James defines craving and deceit differently from > the way Swee Boon and Howard define them. I am not sure where you > stand on the issue, but James would be referring to what he > calls, "wholesome craving" and, "wholesome conceit." James: Ken, we have all been talking about the same thing- it seems that you are creating a division that doesn't exist. Let me go back a bit into the history of this quickly moving thread: In post #51079 James wrote: "It is through craving and conceit, craving and conceit for liberation, that craving and conceit are abandoned." In post #51080 Howard wrote: "James has explained what I was saying quite well, for which I thank him! :-)" In post #51083 Tep wrote: "James was also very sharp in seeing through the true meaning of this sutta." In post #51111 Joop wrote: "Maybe that is not important at all and only an occasion to give this explanation, so good explained by James." It seems that at the beginning of this thread I put forth the interpretation that the sutta in question was speaking about wholesome desire and wholesome conceit and there was a general agreement with my interpretation. No one has deviated from that interpretation. Swee Boon didn't say specifically so, but his questions and the suttas he posted pointed toward an agreement also. Now, Ken, do you see how you have twisted people's words around? (not intentionally but through unmindfulness?). > > It really would be good if we could use Pali terms wherever there is > this kind of confusion. Swee Boon and Howard could use 'lobha' > and 'mana,' while James could use 'kusala-chanda' and some other word > (for wholesome conceit) that has not been settled on yet. > > In summary, my answers are 'no, no and no,' *on the assumption* that > you are referring to lobha and mana. > > --------------------------------- > T: > Don't you think that the Buddha-to-be achieved Buddhahood > without the initial impetus produced by craving and conceit? > ---------------------------------- > > Now we have an added complication: a typo. :-) Assuming you meant to > type, "Do" instead of "Don't" my answer is "Yes." > > I hope this has helped to untwist things. James: Not really, but at least you are trying! ;-)) > > Ken H Metta, James 51201 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: Me and Sea htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Greetings Htoo, > > Your comments reminded me of a humorous example mentioned in the > Vissudhimagga (XX 109). > > "This story illustrates how it [obhasa] varies. Two elders, it seems, > were sitting inside a room with a double wall at Cittalapabbata. It > was the Uposatha of the dark of the moon that day. All directions > were covered by a blanket of cloud, and at night the four-factored > gloom[35]prevailed. Then one elder said, 'Venerable sir, the flowers > of the five colours on the lion table on the shrine terrace are > visible to me now'. The other said, 'What you say is nothing > wonderful, friend. Actually the fishes and turtles in the ocean a > league away are visible to me now'." (p.657 Nanamoli trans.) > > Hal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hal, Thanks for your reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51202 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: Me and Sea htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Htoo: > > And I did not find anything that DSGs do not like when I went into > > deep meditation. I was not forcing anything. I was not longing > > anything. I was not expecting anything. > > > > Tep: > > What could you do when you were in the sea of "nothing"? But is there a > benefit? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Just follow the Path. With Metta, Htoo Naing > 51203 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:30am Subject: Re: Me and Sea / Perception of the Breath Body? htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Htoo - Thanks for the interesting (personal) meditation experience. I hope you are kind enough to explain to me a little bit by answering the following questions. 1. What was the miditation ? I suppose it was anapanasati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Breathing and related activities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. How did your meditation get deeper? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Distrubing objects stopped to disturb and the mind skilfully went deeper and deeper concentration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Why did you think of the halo you saw (with your eyes closed, I suppose) as a "sea"? Why not 'air', or 'cloud', or 'space'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just a description and nothing. As I had to choose a topic then I choose 'me' and another ryming word became 'sea'. That is all. It can be anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. If you saw a halo, which was something, why then was "your halo" a sea of nothing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It was a clear surrounding. It was nothing or space. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Was it possible that your samadhi-nimitta, i.e. the halo, was simply your perception of the breath body [given that you did breathing meditation.]? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Might be. May be. Can be. Will be. It was. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. What did you mean by "just note what I saw as i saw and do not go beyond."? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was instructed that see things as they are. If I go beyond that then I will be thinking on my own. So stop logical thinking there and see as they are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The following article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, De-perception, might be helpful. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/deperception.htm l Yours truly, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thank you very much. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51204 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: Me and Sea htootintnaing Dear James, Thanks for your reply. I do notice that 'overanalyse and criticize to death is a possibility'. But for the benefits of members I posted this message. You will have noticed that I just used simple English. I posted this in sincerity. Nothing was attached when I posted that message. I have been known to be bookish. But there in that message I presented anew. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Last night, when it approached deeper meditation I saw the sea. > The sea > > was full of nothing. It was like a clear halo. That halo > surrounded me. > > When I arose from meditation what I remembered was that there was > not > > me at that time when I saw the sea. That is the sea of nothing. > > > > All in all, there was the sea and me. There was not any other > things. Me > > here is just me and it is not a man or a being or anything like > that > > but just me. I was instructed that just note what I saw as i saw > and do > > not go beyond. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing James: Hi Htoo, Thanks for sharing your meditation experience, even in a group like this. I'm afraid that your experience will probably be over- analyzed to death, but I am not going to do that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear James, I do know the group setting and their interest. I am not afraid of any overanalysis and critics. Thanks a lot for your kind promise of 'not doing overanalysis to death'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: I just wanted to mention one thing: I have read something very similar to what you have experienced, sitting in front of a sea of nothingness, somewhere else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there exists a real path there always are milestones. This milestone is number one, this is number two, and this three, this four and so on. So it is no wonder that you have read something very similar to what I wrote. What I wrote in 'Me and Sea' is not a copy. Here in DSG, people almost always say 'doing' is not right. Whatever the useages are bearing their meaning, practice is practice. Those who never practise are not practitioners. Again the wording will move to 'practice' rather than 'doing' in the mind of overanalysers and critics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Unfortunately, right now, I can't remember exactly where it is that I read it (having read many secondary books on Buddhist), but I do remember that it is a significant experience- and one which I haven't had. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your remarks and admittance of not having had 'a significant experience'. I am not to be conceited when I hear your remarks. When I posted this 'Me and Sea' I did anticipate possible replies and critics. But as I saw the benefits I did post 'Me and Sea'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Of what significance is the experience? That doesn't matter- just suffice it to say that I believe it is significant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I was not looking for or longing for 'a significant experience' or 'a good progress'. It just happened and I just described as I perceived and as I saw in my way. In the second paragraph, I did mention that 'I was instructed'. There are many sidetrackings on the way. If these sidetrackings are followed then the main road will have been missed. You may know that I frequently argue on the point that (ruupaavacara ruupa jhaanas) are absorptive consciousness and they cannot see nibbana. Let alone nibbana they cannot even see any hints of impermanance,unsatisfactoriness, selflessness. But I did not say ruupa-jhaana are necessary or not necessary. What I do say is that when nibbana is seen (by magga cittas or phala cittas) the seer is no more ruupa-jhaanas. IF SOMEONE DELUDEDLY ASSUMED RUUPA_JHAANA ARE NECESSARY FOR MAGGA_NAANA AND IF THEY ATTAIN RUUPA_JHAANA WITHOUT SUFFICIENT PA~N~NAA THEY WILL DEFINITELY BE ATTRACTED BY RUUPA_JHAANA AND THIS MIGHT DISTRACT THEM TO DEVIATE FROM THE WAY TO NIBBANA. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Let it go, but continue to meditate in all earnestness! Ignore the naysayers and critics. I wish you blessings on your journey forward! Metta, James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I described is 'a state of mind'. You and DSGs (all members) may label it as 'my mind' or 'whatever'. I frequently saw such things. Once when I told one of such experience to someone, he told me that 'it was aruupa jhaana'. I smiled. What I described are just 'states' and I have still been searching (that is following the old Path). I am not following any ruupa-jhaana or aruupa-jhaana. Here 'still searching' 'still following' means 'still learning'. This is reinforced by studying. One thing that I have to remind myself is that 'I do not have to long for any progress or moving forward' but 'I have to earnestly learn what I experience' and by using these learned experiences I have to follow the peaceful Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: ps. Nice to see a change from you from the Pali listings. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: ;-) Well, this time, in this reply I include some Pali. Apology for that. I hope you will forgive me for using those Pali words. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51205 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 4:28am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - May I ask you why you find this article ("Ajahn Sumedho") valuable enough to deserve attention of the DSG members? Thank you in advance. Tep ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Tep, When I read 'word by word' on the message of U Han Tun, I felt something for DSGs. That is why I choose to post it here. Please see what I felt in a separate post, a reply to my own post by analysing the original. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51206 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine / A new Religion for Home Owners? nidive Hi Tep, > I want to tell Phil that I do appreciate his sincere answers to > Swee's challenging and well thought-out questions. However, the > patient waiting for appropriate "conditions" for panna, sati, and > even right efforts, to "arise" by themselves, or through one's > past accumulations, or by listening and considering the Dhamma > (from Khun Sujin's lectures), is very fascinating, though not very > convincing. Why? Because this new philosophy is not quite compatible > with the Buddha's Teachings and the Patisambhidamagga of the Great > Arahant Sariputta. > Later on when I have more time, I might post some collected excerpts > from several suttas to show why I think so. But I know that Swee, > James, Howard and a few other members have done exactly that and > they have not made any difference, so there is no guarantee that > this planned effort of mine will not also be in vain. {:>( I look forward to it! True Dhamma should be repeated and repeated and repeated. > Tep : The teachings of Khun Sujin sounds like an ideal, new religion > for householders who are happily surrounded by pleasurable things > and loved ones. Yet these home owners may realize Nibbana like the > homeless bhikkhus and bkikkhunis of the Buddha's time. I share your sentiments. Regards, Swee Boon 51207 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Andrew (James, Swee and all)- Thank you for your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Dear Tep > Thanks for your considered reply and kind words. I am one of these > people who like to learn a teaching and understand it before I feel > confidence in saying I accept it or not. Since joining DSG, my task > has been to learn what is orthodox Theravada, without saying I'm pro > or anti, just learning slowly and keeping an open mind, which > includes being honest about the parts that seem odd to me and the > parts I don't understand. I have a long way to go, but like everyone > else, I develop 'working theories' about the meaning of this and that > and how they relate. These theories have changed over time. > Personally, I am most reluctant to claim absolute knowledge of what a sutta says, and that ancient commentators were wrong. That time is a long way off for me. I simply don't know enough and don't have 'a > feel' for the overall scheme. So please excuse me if I am non- > committal about the way you and Swee Boon interpret the Brahmana > Sutta. You may be correct. But at the moment, it's not part of my > plan to do away with sections of the Tipitika such as Abhidhamma and commentaries. My working theory of the Dhamma at the moment is that the core ideas are anatta and conditionality. It is these I tend to > use as a yardstick, which gives me a preference for discussing Dhamma in ultimate terms (paramattha-desana). Many on DSG prefer the conventional or pragmatic outlook. At the end of the day, I think we > are mostly all 'singing from the same songsheet' but in different > keys! (-: Sometimes we get caught up in cycles, like the 'practice' > and 'conditions' one. When Swee Boon says we can't 'wait for > conditions' but must actively practice for liberation, the other side > answers that conditions rule all ie whether we 'practice' or 'sit at > home' is the outcome of conditions. So the argument rolls on - and > is not so helpful for me. The Buddha said that his Dhamma was > difficult to see - and it certainly is for me - another reason why I > shy away from claims that a sutta is 'clear' or 'obvious'. Anyway, > that's just a bit of background to help you understand where I am > coming from. Please keep posting and sharing your ideas. I will be > reading them, even if not actively agreeing or disagreeing. > Time has got away and I must go now. Dear friend Andrew, I am glad that you have pointed out in what way you are different from the rest of the active DSG members. It seems to me that you have tried to stay at the mid point (although you have not been successful yet -- keep trying!). One advantage of the neutral standing is harmlessness. You don't annoy anyone, and noone annoys you. Another benefit is that you are in the position that makes it possible to see both sides of an issue. May you be successful in finishing the development of the "working theories" soon. I am going to be delighted and excited to read your final blueprint. But I wouldn't be surprise if what you will discover oneday (after you have done enough learning of the orthodox Theravada) is not different from what the Buddha told his disciples in the suttas. Thank you for sending me the same message I have received from Dan D. lately; namely, do not "claim absolute knowledge of what a sutta says", and do not think that "ancient commentators were wrong". It is surprising to me how two persons can be equally wrong on the same issue. Andrew: So please excuse me if I am non-committal about the way you and Swee Boon interpret the Brahmana Sutta. You may be correct. But at the moment, it's not part of my plan to do away with sections of the Tipitika such as Abhidhamma and commentaries. Tep: It is alright with me, Andrew. Like I said earlier, the neutral position isn't a bad idea if you don't want anyone to jump at you. Andrew: The Buddha said that his Dhamma was difficult to see - and it certainly is for me - another reason why I shy away from claims that a sutta is 'clear' or 'obvious'. Tep: Oh, don't take me wrong. I have not said that the Buddha's Dhamma is easy, or claimed that all suttas are clear or obvious. But when the suttas are clear, it is not right to twist the Buddha's words around to fit one's biased belief. Let the suttas speak while we listen without mental fabrications. Andrew: Please keep posting and sharing your ideas. I will be reading them, even if not actively agreeing or disagreeing. Tep: When they are not agreeable, please at least try to get the point before rejecting them. That's all I ask. Sincerely, Tep ======== 51208 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:48am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas nidive Hi James and Ken H, > It seems that at the beginning of this thread I put forth the > interpretation that the sutta in question was speaking about > wholesome desire and wholesome conceit and there was a general > agreement with my interpretation. No one has deviated from that > interpretation. Swee Boon didn't say specifically so, but his > questions and the suttas he posted pointed toward an agreement > also. Now, Ken, do you see how you have twisted people's words > around? (not intentionally but through unmindfulness?). Craving for the attainment of arahantship causes zeal for the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It that sense it is a wholesome craving. Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. The same goes with conceit. Craving for self-liberation causes zeal in the Buddha-to-be to leave home and go in search in the wilderness for that Noble Ancient Path. Conceit for self-liberation causes zeal in the Buddha-to-be to set his mind to perfect the paramis. Though craving and conceit are indeed akusala, they can be such great impetus for such a lofty ambition as Buddhahood, or Teaching Buddha. My craving and conceit are not one-tenth of that of the Buddha-to-be. Regards, Swee Boon 51209 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi Rob M, Swee Boon, Larry(*) and all > FYI - My message 33260 gives a detailed analysis of dependent > origination using conditions. Thanks, after I posted I thought I should have asked you to post a summary. Swee Boon, and others interested, I have some things to do the next couple of days so will only be able to get into the topic gradually but I would like to examine conditions with you and anyone else interested. Before we start, Swee Boon, are you open to the conditional relations (paccaya?) laid out in Abhidhamma? If not, there is no point starting the discussion, because they are at the core of what we mean when we say "conditions." Larry, I think in Vism there is a section in which paticca samupaddha (sp?) and the paccaya of Abhidhamma are analyzed together. Has it already been covered in your Vism project here are DSG? If so, what are the message #s? Thanks. Phil 51210 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James and Ken H, > Craving for the attainment of arahantship causes zeal for the practice > of the Noble Eightfold Path. It that sense it is a wholesome craving. > > Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that > craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. > > The same goes with conceit. Thanks for the explanation of your position. I have a question in order to clarify. Swee: Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. The same goes with conceit. James: What do you mean by `practice' and why do you believe it cannot involve wholesome desire and conceit? Metta, James 51211 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:41am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. nidive Hi Phil, > Before we start, Swee Boon, are you open to the conditional > relations (paccaya?) laid out in Abhidhamma? If not, there is no > point starting the discussion, because they are at the core of what > we mean when we say "conditions." I am not interested. Formulating a whole new doctrine around the 24 conditions that is contrary to the spirit of the Buddha's teachings found in the suttas is not my cup of tea. I know it will taste bad. Regards, Swee Boon 51212 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, paramis matheesha333 Hi KenH, I think we are both discussing issues which are fundamental to our aproach to the dhamma. My 'tone' may sound 'heated' at times but I assure you that it is not. I think the words i use are something cultural and Im trying to be mindful of it. I feel responsible for your emotions as well, as we are bound in causality. >KH: We don't remember the theory we learned in previous lives: even the > theory we learned yesterday is mostly forgotten. But panna is not > theory: it is a conditioned dhamma. M: hmm panna is unconditioned? Only nibbana is unconditioned is it not? Panna=nibbana? Even if it were unconditioned it shouldnt affect this issue of remembering? > I think you accept that there is a continuous succession of cittas - > each conditioned by its immediate predecessor - do you not? The > present citta has arisen only because the conditions for it to arise > were accumulated in the immediately preceding citta. At each moment, > the overall accumulations are altered ever so slightly, and any > alteration can influence events millions of years into the future. M: That sounds beautiful. But if that were the case a practitioner should be able to experience every single thing he gathered as panna every single moment, because sanna that arises can be experienced. This is why sanna as a storehouse of all wisdom/knowldge ever gathered cannot work and is not supported in the suttas either. I dont think memory is well explained in the suttas, (and it is not obliged to do so either) because whatever that is subconscious is hardly good material for satipatthana. I still feel understanding/panna here and now in the form of bhavanamaya, sutamaya and cintamaya panna is mcuh more influential than near subconcious understanding from a past life. While these 3 can be developed i see little point and much hopelesness in considering something you might or might not have (accumilations). ------------------ >KH Thanks, Matheesha, I look forward to more bits, and I will keep my > replies to a minimum to help prevent telescoping. > > Ken H > M: Thank you Ken. In someways this must be a rare event in samsara to meet someone whom we can discuss the dhamma with. My priviledge. metta Matheesha 51213 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas nidive Hi James, > Swee: Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, > that craving is not present during the practice if one practices > rightly. The same goes with conceit. > > James: What do you mean by `practice' and why do you believe it > cannot involve wholesome desire and conceit? Right Mindfulness/Concentration meditation. When one sees the three characteristics of reality as it actually is, there is wisdom of the path. At that point in time, there cannot be craving or conceit that inflames the mind. More specifically, one sees the three characteristics of craving and conceit as it actually is. Though craving and conceit may arise during meditation, one is burnt neither by craving nor conceit. If one craves for arahantship, but does not take up the practice, then that mind remains burnt by that craving with no appeasement in sight. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion. ... "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 51214 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, paramis nidive Hi Matheesha, > M: That sounds beautiful. But if that were the case a practitioner > should be able to experience every single thing he gathered as panna > every single moment, because sanna that arises can be experienced. > This is why sanna as a storehouse of all wisdom/knowldge ever > gathered cannot work and is not supported in the suttas either. I > dont think memory is well explained in the suttas, (and it is not > obliged to do so either) because whatever that is subconscious is > hardly good material for satipatthana. I still feel > understanding/panna here and now in the form of bhavanamaya, > sutamaya and cintamaya panna is mcuh more influential than near > subconcious understanding from a past life. While these 3 can be > developed i see little point and much hopelesness in considering > something you might or might not have (accumilations). I don't think we have communicated before but what you said above rings close to my heart. There is indeed little point and much hopelessness in considering accumulations. Regards, Swee Boon 51215 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 8:54am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhistmedi... Hi Swee ( Phil and James) - I am curious about the 24 conditions that I have only seen in the Visuddhimagga. > Swee: > Formulating a whole new doctrine around the 24 conditions that is > contrary to the spirit of the Buddha's teachings found in the suttas > is not my cup of tea. > > I know it will taste bad. > The various kinds of conditions in the Vism are fascinating to me because they are logically sound -- quite like the science of communication and electrical signals. My sutta study so far has not encountered any discourse about the 24 conditions. But I am not sure I have got enough evidence to state that they are not the Buddha's discovery. What is your thought? Warm regards, Tep === 51216 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > Swee: Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, > > that craving is not present during the practice if one practices > > rightly. The same goes with conceit. > > > > James: What do you mean by `practice' and why do you believe it > > cannot involve wholesome desire and conceit? > > Right Mindfulness/Concentration meditation. Thank you for your well-considered reply, but I am somewhat disappointed. I wanted a more personal response, not a textual definition. I guess I should have made that more clear in my question. Of course I am aware of the textual definition of practice which involves satipatthana and jhana- I wouldn't need to ask you for that! ;-)) Let me backtrack a bit to explain. Remember that this thread is concerning the words of Ven. Ananda. The original sutta and even the subsequent suttas you provided were by Ven. Ananda. The concern and emphasis of wholesome desire and wholesome conceit were Ven. Ananda's. What type of monk was Ven. Ananada? As a personal attendant to the Buddha for many years, listening to almost all of the suttas, he still didn't achieve enlightenment until after the Buddha's parinibbana. And even then, it was at great effort and desperation. Was Ven. Ananda the model monk? Did he practice satipatthana and jhana with all earnestness 24/7? Obviously not or he would have achieved enlightenment much sooner. Ven. Ananda's "practice" wasn't continual satipatthana and jhana, it was spotty of such activities and it was predominately mixed with veneration of the Buddha and the dhamma (in other words, wholesome desire and conceit). However, I don't think anyone would say that Ven. Ananda didn't "practice" the Buddha's teaching. He still practiced, but not in the manner of all other monks. Personally, I identify with Ven. Ananda. I see that my practice of satipatthana and jhana isn't continual, but my veneration of the Buddha and the dhamma is. Therefore, my practice, at a personal level, contains wholesome desire and conceit. Maybe this isn't the case for you. Perhaps you continually practice satipatthana and jhana. But, for these reason, I hope you will understand why I disagree with you that "practice" doesn't contain wholesome desire and conceit. I think it does- and Ven. Ananda thought it did. Metta, James 51217 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:21am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi Swee Boon > > Before we start, Swee Boon, are you open to the conditional > > relations (paccaya?) laid out in Abhidhamma? If not, there is no > > point starting the discussion, because they are at the core of what > > we mean when we say "conditions." > > I am not interested. > > Formulating a whole new doctrine around the 24 conditions that is > contrary to the spirit of the Buddha's teachings found in the suttas > is not my cup of tea. > > I know it will taste bad. Ok, that saved us some time! But in the future you might consider holding any criticism of conditions if you don't even want to discuss them. This group was formed some 30 years ago with Abhidhamma as a central pillar, as you know. If you want to understand what we mean by "conditions" you will have to understand Abhidhamma. If not, you will have no ability to criticize posts based in Abhidhamma unless it is just by a kind of Dhamma bigotry, narrow-mindedness. But I do appreciate you straightforwardness. Saves us time and energy. I was intending to delve deeper into the paccaya, so still will, I think. Maybe passages from the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. Phil 51218 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:31am Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas nidive Hi James, > However, I don't think anyone would say that Ven. Ananda > didn't "practice" the Buddha's teaching. He still practiced, but > not in the manner of all other monks. Personally, I identify with > Ven. Ananda. I see that my practice of satipatthana and jhana isn't > continual, but my veneration of the Buddha and the dhamma is. > Therefore, my practice, at a personal level, contains wholesome > desire and conceit. Maybe this isn't the case for you. Perhaps you > continually practice satipatthana and jhana. > > But, for these reason, I hope you will understand why I disagree > with you that "practice" doesn't contain wholesome desire and > conceit. I think it does- and Ven. Ananda thought it did. Okay, I see what you are trying to say, and I agree with you. Wholesome craving and wholesome conceit is only eradicated in an arahant. Regards, Swee Boon 51219 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > But in the future you might consider holding any criticism of > conditions if you don't even want to discuss them. This group was > formed some 30 years ago with Abhidhamma as a central pillar, as you > know. If you want to understand what we mean by "conditions" you > will have to understand Abhidhamma. Would you please get off this!!?? The Buddhadhamma can withstand any amount of criticism or questioning. The Buddha never discouraged such questioning. If the Abhidhamma is a part of that tradition then it doesn't need to be protected by your "bodyguard' type comments. Really, you do a disservice to K. Sujin, Nina, Sarah, John, and others with such feeble attempts to protect what shouldn't need to be protected! Sorry for being so blunt but I am getting tired of these comments! (You once wrote to me off-list to stop being a `dhamma-avenger' and I agreed with you. Now it is my turn to return the favor. ;-)) Metta, James 51220 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:42am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. nidive Hi Tep, > The various kinds of conditions in the Vism are fascinating to me > because they are logically sound -- quite like the science of > communication and electrical signals. My sutta study so far has not > encountered any discourse about the 24 conditions. But I am not sure > I have got enough evidence to state that they are not the Buddha's > discovery. What is your thought? I too have never read about the 24 conditions in the suttas. I don't think they are important. If they are, they should have been mentioned by the Buddha in the suttas. It is said that the Buddha taught the 24 conditions in the heavens and taught it only to Sariputta on earth. Sariputta disseminated this knowledge to his disciples, and probably his disciples' disciples wrote them down. The funny thing is, if the Buddha deemed this teaching of the 24 conditions fit only for consumption by devas and Sariputta, why then are we so eager to learn about it? Afterall, he didn't even teach it to Maha Mogallana. In principle, I still accept them as the Buddha's teachings, since this is the tradition of Theravada, but I won't ever want to touch them. Regards, Swee Boon 51221 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. nidive Hi Phil, > But in the future you might consider holding any criticism of > conditions if you don't even want to discuss them. This group was > formed some 30 years ago with Abhidhamma as a central pillar, as you > know. If you want to understand what we mean by "conditions" you > will have to understand Abhidhamma. If not, you will have no ability > to criticize posts based in Abhidhamma unless it is just by a kind > of Dhamma bigotry, narrow-mindedness. The True Dhamma as taught by the Buddha in the suttas was formulated some 2500 years ago! Regards, Swee Boon 51222 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - > Swee: > It is said that the Buddha taught the 24 conditions in the heavens and > taught it only to Sariputta on earth. Sariputta disseminated this > knowledge to his disciples, and probably his disciples' disciples > wrote them down. >Swee: > The funny thing is, if the Buddha deemed this teaching of the 24 > conditions fit only for consumption by devas and Sariputta, why then > are we so eager to learn about it? Afterall, he didn't even teach it > to Maha Mogallana. >Swee: > In principle, I still accept them as the Buddha's teachings, since > this is the tradition of Theravada, but I won't ever want to touch > them. > Your position is well understood! Regards, Tep ========= 51223 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 10:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Guarding the Sense Doors ? Is Kundaliya Sutta Misleading? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - I am pleased with this right-to-the-point post ! Apologies for my confusion about your interpretation of this sati-before-or-after indriya samvara issue. The key word is "fulfillment". > S: the key issue, as I recall, was a comment of Htoo's (nothing to do with the Kundaliya Sutta) about meditation and samvara sila which I picked up to discuss. > > I believe Htoo got the point and I'll be happy to discuss the Kundaliya > Sutta or any other sutta with you on return, Tep. I agree (and have said > the same before) that the Kundaliya Sutta discusses indriya samvara >sila before the fulfillment of satipatthana. As I've stressed, there is > guarding from unwholesome states at any moments of sati. Without the development of satipatthana, such guarding will not be 'maintained' or 'perfected'. > > Apologies for any understandable confusion in my earlier long post. > >Sarah: > p.s does this qualify as a KISS on the run...?? > Tep: It does, Sarah ! Respectfully, Tep ========== 51225 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 11:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - You have again presented yourself as a good example of how to be cool and collected in Dhamma discussion. I have a lot to learn from you, Sarah. > > Tep: > > It is easy to get swept away by what one reads between the lines > > of the original text. The more research one makes, the more > >expanding and complicated interpretation may arise (papa~nca) ! > >So please be reminded that we are discussing a pretty simple > >sutta, and that we should discuss it with no atta-ditthi. > .... > > S: Yes, it is a different approach. I believe I joined in this discussion > originally because there was some question about whether the parinnas (referred to by you) were really concerned with right understanding. > > for my part, I believe we need to consider each word of the Buddha's (or his great disciples) very carefully and with reference to many texts, not just one sutta. For example, if we take a word such as dhamma or parinna or nama or rupa or papanca, we had better really consider what they mean when we use them (or a translation). For me, without careful reflection of their meanings and reference to present dhammas, there will be no bhavana. > When we read the suttas, I believe we must be careful and really consider these present realities. There is a reference to this somewhere near the beginning of the Patisambhidamagga. Dhammas cannot become clear or patisambhida without careful considering. It's no use remembering lists and numbers without such understanding of dhammas. > Tep: I agree with you concerning the principle behind the dhamma study, or any scientific study in general. The difficult thing to do is to intelligently decide when enough study is enough. More "research" passing the point of marginal return is wasteful. Respectfully, Tep ========== 51226 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 11:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Sarah - > > You have again presented yourself as a good example of how to be > cool and collected in Dhamma discussion. I have a lot to learn from > you, Sarah. Yeah, Sarah is really awesome, in many ways. But don't be too quick to judge a book by its cover. We all don't have to try to be like Sarah (and Jon): 'Robots' on the loose!! ;-)) Metta, James 51227 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, ------------------ SB: > Craving for the attainment of arahantship causes zeal for the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It that sense it is a wholesome craving. Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. The same goes with conceit. ---------------------------------- Thank you, Swee Boon, that is what I have always thought you were saying. By all conventional standards, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. Not only is it reasonable, it is undeniable (by conventional standards). However, in my opinion, it misses the point of the Buddha's teaching. You will remember the Dhammapada quote; "Never by dosa is dosa overcome, Only by adosa is dosa overcome. This is an eternal truth." In some situations, it seems undeniable that a little dosa helps in overcoming a greater dosa, but that is not in accordance with the Dhamma. I believe the same applies for lobha and mana. Ken H 51228 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi Rob M, I am sorry it is taking me so long to reply to you on this thread. Your latest post has got me stumped - almost as if I have run out of arguments (heaven forbid!). I have a busy schedule today but will come up with something ASAP - even if it is just to get the ball back in your court. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > I am going to preface each of my comments with either "fact" > or "opinion". I treat a "fact" as something that can be verified by > consulting Suttas whereas "opinion" is something that is outside the > Suttas. We can debate "facts" by consulting the ancient texts. I am > less interested in debating opinions as there may be no resolution > (i.e. you say "tom-ah-to", I say "tom-ay-to"). 51229 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi James, Swee and all > Would you please get off this!!?? The Buddhadhamma can withstand > any amount of criticism or questioning. The Buddha never > discouraged such questioning. If the Abhidhamma is a part of that > tradition then it doesn't need to be protected by your "bodyguard' > type comments. Not bodyguard, James. My point is common sense, isn't it? If someone is going to criticize Abhidhamma, he or she has to understand Abhidhamma to a certain extent first, right? Otherwise it is bigotry. I think that's a fair thing to say. So if Sarah or I or anyone else refer to conditions, simply denying they exist by a blanket statement won't fly. Especially since this is a group that was formed to discuss the tipitaka (sp? - see the home page where the group's founding principles are discussed) which is the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma. I am going to start looking at the 24 conditional elements in detail, with passages from Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary to the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma and Nina's "Conditions." If Swee Boon or you or anyone else have objections to the word "conditions" it would be good to learn more about conditions so your criticism will have weight of any kind. Simply saying that Abhidhamma is not Buddhadhamma won't fly - not at a group that was formed to discuss Abhidhamma and the other two baskets of Dhamma. Isn't that common sense? I don't think I will get off this point. It's a common sense point that needs to be made. I will make it again, I'm sure. I like Swee Boon's posts because they are to the point and sensible, even when incorrect, in my opinion - could any sensible person disagree with what I've written here? Phil 51230 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine philofillet Hi James and Hal Hal, thanks - good point. Making the hungering for results a point to be practiced on. Quite right. And I am. Coming to understand more about lobha and moha, gradually. But not launching myself into intentional satipatthana because it simply feels wrong. Do something one feels is wrong until one sees through one's previous misunderstanding of it until one sees it was right all the time? Could be. But in the meantime I am learning about the unwholesome roots (and kusala as well) as they can be understood and experienced to a certain extent in daily life. Very interesting, and may lead me back to a more intentional satipatthana. Who knows? > James > Of course your "hungering for results" is akusala because you don't > know what you are hungering for. You, in fact, are hungering for > more ignorance. If you believe that the results are supposed to > make you feel more safe and happy in your job, with your wife, in > your apartment, with yourself, etc. Then you are hungering for the > wrong results. It isn't the hungering that is the significant > concern, it is the ignorance which doesn't allow you to know what > the proper results should be. > > This is why the Buddha taught Satipatthana. Satipatthana is a means > of deconstructing our reality in order to see the truth. It is an > intentional practice and it isn't easy. However, Satipatthana is > the only direct way to end this ignorance because the ignorance is > in our mind, not in the `world out there'. > > I guess I have said enough. I will stop here and see if you respond. I see your point, James. I do. Accept that there is the delusion, for all of us, and practice Satipatthana to end the ignorance. I defintely see your point. And as I said, I haven't closed the door, not by any means. As we said a few weeks ago, DSG could just be a stop on the path for me. I'll be stepping out of this thread and any other threads not related to my "conditions" project for the time being, since the writing contest deadline is coming and there is work to be done. I'll have to focus my DSG posting on one topic to save myself from getting caught up in too much posting. But thanks for your feedback James. (and Hal) I always do sense your devotion to Dhamma, your wholesome desire (chanda) to share it with others. Phil 51231 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. bardosein Hi Swee Boon and all, Concerning the authenticity and value of the Abhidhamma, Ven Nyanaponika writes: "In a compartative evaluation of the Abhidhamma and the suttas, the fact is often overlooked--which, however, has been repeatedly stressed by the Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera--that the Sutta Pitaka too contains a considerable amount of Abhidhamma. This comprises all the numerous texts expounded from the ultimate standpoint (paramattha), which make use of strict philosphical terminology and explain experience in terms of selfless, conditioned processes; for example, those suttas dealing with the five aggregates, the eighteen elements, and the twelve sense bases (khanda, dhatu, ayatana). One also frequently hears the question asked whether a knowledge of the Abhidhamma is necessary for the full understanding of the Dhamma or for final liberation. In this general form, the question is not quite adequately put. Even in the Sutta Pitaka many different approaches and methods of practice are offered as 'gates' to the understanding of the same Four Noble Truths. Not all of them are 'necessary' for reaching the final goal, Nibanna, nor are suitable in their entirety for every individual disciple. Rather, the Buddha taught a variety of approaches and left it to the disciples to make their personal choices among them, according to their personal circumstances, inclination, and level of maturity. The same holds true for the Abhidhamma both as a whole and in its single aspects and teachings. Perhaps the best explanation of the relationship between the Abhidhamma and the suttas is a pair of similes given in a conversation by the Venerable Pelene Vajiranana Mahathera, the founding prelate of the Vajirarama Monastery in Colombo: 'The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying glass but the understanding gained from the suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Or the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine, but the knowledge gained from the suttas is the medicine itself, which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms.' CONCLUDING REMARKS AND A WARNING Taking a middle path between overrating or underating the Abhidhamma, we might say: The Teachings in the Sutta Pitaka with an Abhidhamma flavor--are certainly indispensable for the understanding and practice of the Dhamma; and the elaboration of these teachings in the Abhidhamma proper may prove very helpful, and in some cases even necessary, for both understanding and practice. As to the codified Abhidhamma Pitaka, familiarity with all its details is certainly not compulsory; but if it is studied and applied in the way briefly indicated in these pages, this will surely nurture a true understanding of actuality and aid the work of practice aimed at liberation. Also, if suitably presented, the Abhidhamma can provide those with a philosophical bent a stimulating approach to the Dhamma that could prove fruitful, provided they take care to balance intellectul understanding with actual practice. Such an approach to the Dhamma should certainly not be blocked by wholesale disparagement of Abhidhamma study sometimes found nowadays among Buddhists in the West, and even in Asia. Dangers of a one-sided emphasis and developement lurk not only in the Abhidhamma but also in other approaches to the Dhamma, and they cannot be entirely avoided until a very high level of harmonious integration of the spiritual faculities has been attained. To be sure, without an ernest attempt to apply the Abhidhamma teachings in such ways as intimated above, they may easily become a rigid system of lifeless concepts. Like other philosophical systems, the Abhidhamma can lead to a dogmatic and superstitious belief in words, for example, to the opinion that one really knows something about the subject if one is skilled in navigating the conceptual system. The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of the conceptual labels. This would make the Abhidhamma study--though, of course, not of the Abhidhamma itself--just one more among the many intellectual 'playthings' that serve as an escape from facing reality, or as a 'respectable excuse' with which to evade the hard inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to the kind of intellectual pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. If these pitfalls are avoided, there is a good chance that the Abhidhamma may again become a living force that stimulates thought and aids the meditative endeavor for the mind's liberation, the purpose for which the Abhidhamma teachings is really meant. To achieve this however, the Abhidhamma teachings must be not merely accepted and transmitted verbally but carefully examined and contemplated in their philosophical and practical implications. These teachings are often extremely condensed, and on many points of interest even the classical commentaries are silent. Thus to work out their implications will require the devoted effort of searching and imaginative minds. As they will have to work on neglected and difficult ground, they should not lack the courage to make initial mistakes, which can be rectified by discussion and constant reference to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka." [Venerable Nayanponika Thera,_ Abhidhamma Studies_. This excerpt taken from his chapter entitled, "The Abhidhamma Philosophy: Its Estimation in the Past, Its Value for the Present". pp.1-17; The passage above cited from pp. 15- 17] 51232 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H (Attn: Swee, James, Matheesha, Howard, Sarah) - Is this the first time you ever quote Dhammapada? >Ken H : > You will remember the Dhammapada quote; "Never by dosa is dosa > overcome, Only by adosa is dosa overcome. This is an eternal truth." > > In some situations, it seems undeniable that a little dosa helps in > overcoming a greater dosa, but that is not in accordance with the > Dhamma. I believe the same applies for lobha and mana. > Tep: Pardon me, Ken ? I think you are not addressing the same theme underlying the sutta that was introduced by friend Swee (i.e. AN LI.15: Brahmana Sutta). The theme underlying your DHP quote is that adosa overcomes dosa, period. Extending it further, one can say that viraga (or nirodha) overcomes craving(tanha, unwholesome desire), anatta- sanna overcomes atta-sanna, and so on. It is clear and clearly different than the theme of Brahmana Sutta, which is "Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. ..." How is it clear? It is clear that the tanha for attainment of arahantship motivates the monk to seek the path toward Nibbana, and at the end of the path that "particular desire is allayed". Of course, on attaining arahantship lobha is overcome by alobha, dosa is overcome by adosa, and moha is overcome amoha -- but not at the beginning !! How can you get to the top of a mountain without a desire to be up there? Once you are at the mountain top that desire simply passes away. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Swee Boon, > > ------------------ > SB: > Craving for the attainment of arahantship causes zeal for the > practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It that sense it is a wholesome > craving. > > Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that > craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. > > The same goes with conceit. > ---------------------------------- > > Thank you, Swee Boon, that is what I have always thought you were > saying. > > By all conventional standards, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to > say. Not only is it reasonable, it is undeniable (by conventional > standards). However, in my opinion, it misses the point of the > Buddha's teaching. 51233 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 5:08pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi again, all An afterthought > I don't think I will get off this point. It's a common sense point > that needs to be made. I will make it again, I'm sure. I like Swee > Boon's posts because they are to the point and sensible, even when > incorrect, in my opinion - could any sensible person disagree with > what I've written here? On second thoughts, I *will* try to get off this point. It's just that I am coming to see that there is a certain futility in people who accept tipitaka (the triple basket of orthodox Theravada) discussing Dhamma with people who only accept Vinaya and suttas. It's like trying to talk through a wall, really, in a way, or something like that. So before anyone leaps to conclusions, I am not saying anyone should leave the group. Maybe I'm just coming to overdue conclusions about the most sensible way for *me* to discuss Dhamma. Phil 51234 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhistmedi... Hi, Hal - I would like to comment on some excellent points in this book by the Ven. Nyanaponika. We all know that "the Sutta Pitaka too contains a considerable amount of Abhidhamma" because Abhidhamma branched out from the Buddha's discourses. As such, I do not see any conflicts between the abhidhamma, the third basket in the Ti-pitaka, and the second-basket Sutta-pitaka. Conflicts or contradictions, I think, happen because of different views of people, not because of faults in the Tipitaka. 1. "... if suitably presented, the Abhidhamma can provide those with a philosophical bent a stimulating approach to the Dhamma that could prove fruitful, provided they take care to balance intellectul understanding with actual practice." Tep: Unfortunately, most philosophical Abhidhammikas I know seem too busy with the intellectual understanding that they refuse to consider the "actual practice" as presented in the second basket. 2. "To be sure, without an ernest attempt to apply the Abhidhamma teachings in such ways as intimated above, they may easily become a rigid system of lifeless concepts. Like other philosophical systems, the Abhidhamma can lead to a dogmatic and superstitious belief in words, ..." Tep: Well said. However, the same comment applies to the Sutta- pitaka as well -- the suttas "can lead to a dogmatic and superstitious belief ...". 3. ".. the Abhidhamma teachings must be not merely accepted and transmitted verbally but carefully examined and contemplated in their philosophical and practical implications. These teachings are often extremely condensed, and on many points of interest even the classical commentaries are silent." Tep: We DSG members should think about this advice often. Thank you much, Hal, for posting the Ven. Nyanaponika's thoughts. Regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Swee Boon and all, > > Concerning the authenticity and value of the Abhidhamma, Ven > Nyanaponika writes: > (snipped) [Venerable Nayanponika > Thera,_ Abhidhamma Studies_. This excerpt taken from his chapter > entitled, "The Abhidhamma Philosophy: Its Estimation in the Past, Its > Value for the Present". pp.1-17; The passage above cited from pp. 15- > 17] > 51235 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. lbidd2 Phil: "Larry, I think in Vism there is a section in which pa.ticca samuppaada (sp?) and the paccaya of Abhidhamma are analyzed together. Has it already been covered in your Vism project here are DSG? If so, what are the message #s? Thanks." Hi Phil, Nina will begin discussing the "Detailed Exposition" of conditioned arising in Vism. when she finishes the chapter we are on (XIV). I think this will be around the first of the year and will take about 3 years to complete. Anyone who has "The Path of Purification" I suggest you review chapters XV through XVII now. XVII is the one on conditioned arising. Also Nina has a book on the 24 conditions available at Zolag. This is rather heady material so I suggest you read it and contemplate it until you get it. Memorization optional. For a succinct analysis see the "Buddhist Dictionary" under both paccaya and paticcasamuppada. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Larry 51236 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:15pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi Larry > Nina will begin discussing the "Detailed Exposition" of conditioned > arising in Vism. when she finishes the chapter we are on (XIV). I think > this will be around the first of the year and will take about 3 years to > complete. Anyone who has "The Path of Purification" I suggest you review > chapters XV through XVII now. XVII is the one on conditioned arising. > Also Nina has a book on the 24 conditions available at Zolag. This is > rather heady material so I suggest you read it and contemplate it until > you get it. Memorization optional. Thanks. 3 years, eh? I admire the way you stick patiently to your Vism. study. Good model for me. > For a succinct analysis see the "Buddhist Dictionary" under both paccaya > and paticcasamuppada. Good idea, thanks. If anyone else can provide links related to paccaya, thanks in advance. Phil 51237 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. lbidd2 Hi Phil, I forgot to mention that Htoo has given an explanation of the 24 conditions but not, I think, the 12 links of dependent arising. Maybe he could give us those message numbers. Larry 51238 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - You are thinking about quitting the futile discussion with those one- basketers who do not accept the other two baskets? Think again. The "wall" you are seeing is just a mental image that is conditioned, some kind of mental formations if you will. If you can't let go, just let it be !! Like I noted in a post to Hal a moment ago, there are no conflicts among the three baskets -- only mental conflicts exist and they are the consequence of biased views of the people. Can we change that? I don't know. Do I have a hope that people (myself included) will learn and become wiser? Of course, I do ! Without that hope I would have quitted DSG long, long time ago. >Phil : > So before anyone leaps to conclusions, I am not saying anyone >should leave the group. Tep: I wouldn't leave DSG even if you filed a petition to the owner and moderators to remove my membership. :-)) Warm and kind regards, Tep, your dhamma friend ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again, all > > An afterthought > > > I don't think I will get off this point. It's a common sense point > > that needs to be made. I will make it again, I'm sure. I like Swee > > Boon's posts because they are to the point and sensible, even when incorrect, in my opinion - could any sensible person disagree with what I've written here? > > On second thoughts, I *will* try to get off this point. It's just > that I am coming to see that there is a certain futility in people who > accept tipitaka (the triple basket of orthodox Theravada) discussing > Dhamma with people who only accept Vinaya and suttas. It's like trying to talk through a wall, really, in a way, or something like that. > > So before anyone leaps to conclusions, I am not saying anyone should leave the group. Maybe I'm just coming to overdue conclusions about the most sensible way for *me* to discuss Dhamma. > > Phil > 51239 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas nidive Hi Tep, > How is it clear? It is clear that the tanha for attainment of > arahantship motivates the monk to seek the path toward Nibbana, > and at the end of the path that "particular desire is allayed". > Of course, on attaining arahantship lobha is overcome by alobha, > dosa is overcome by adosa, and moha is overcome amoha -- but not > at the beginning !! > > How can you get to the top of a mountain without a desire to be up > there? Once you are at the mountain top that desire simply passes > away. I think it is clear that you, James, Howard and I are in agreement about this aspect of the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 51240 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:35pm Subject: Breathing Treatise: para 290 - 293. Ground #5, Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, all - We completed the study of Tetrad 1 last week, kayanupassana based on the breaths (grounds # 1- #4) . This week and next week, we are going to focus on Tetrad 2 (grounds # 5- #8), vedananupassana based on the breaths. Please recall that every tetrad starts with "Analysis of the Object of Contemplation", then it is followed by "The Foundation of Mindfulness", "Training", "Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness", and lastly "Combining the Faculties, Etc." (v) 290. (9) How is it that he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with happiness(piti)', (10) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with happiness'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation] 291. What is happiness(piiti)? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through in-breaths, gladness (paamojja) due to happiness arises in him ... When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long out- breaths, ... through short in-breaths, ... through short out-breaths, ... through in-breaths while accquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through out-breaths while accquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through in-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, ... through out-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, ... gladness due to happiness arises in him. Any happiness, gladness, gladdening (aamodana), gladdenedness, gayness, satisfaction, elation, mental uplift, is happiness(piiti).[See Dhs para 9] 292. How is he acquainted withthat happiness? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is established (founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with that happiness. When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long out-breaths, ... through short in-breaths, ... through short out- breaths, ... through in-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through in-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, ... through out-breaths tranquillizing the body formation, his mindfulness is established(founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with that happiness. 293. When he adverts, he is acquainted with that happiness. when he knows, that happiness is experienced ... [and so on as in para 242 up to] ... When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with that happiness. This is how he is acquainted with that happiness. Tep's Note. After getting a few knocks on my heads about being too self confident in my own understanding of the texts, I realize that it is better for me to just type straight from the book and refrain from presenting my thoughts. {:<|) Humbly yours, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > For this presentation we review para 267 - 289 with the conclusion of > the first tetrad. > > [The Foundation of Mindfulness] > > 267. In-breaths and out-breaths tranquillizing(passaddhi) the body > formation(kaaya sankhaara) are a body(kaaya). The establishment > (upatthaana, foundation) is mindfulness(sati). The contemplation > (anupassanaa) is knowledge(~naana). The body is establishment, 51241 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:39pm Subject: Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas buddhistmedi... Dear Swee - I am glad to read your remarks. > Swee: > I think it is clear that you, James, Howard and I are in agreement > about this aspect of the Dhamma. > Yes, you're right and it is an important observation. Yours truly, Tep ====== 51242 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 7:51pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. nidive Hi Hal, Thank you for this message! > "In a compartative evaluation of the Abhidhamma and the suttas, the > fact is often overlooked--which, however, has been repeatedly > stressed by the Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera--that the Sutta > Pitaka too contains a considerable amount of Abhidhamma. This > comprises all the numerous texts expounded from the ultimate > standpoint (paramattha), which make use of strict philosphical > terminology and explain experience in terms of selfless, conditioned > processes; for example, those suttas dealing with the five > aggregates, the eighteen elements, and the twelve sense bases > (khanda, dhatu, ayatana). I definitely agree on this point. I find this aspect of the Abhidhamma to be very helpful and useful. > Or the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving > an exact analysis of the medicine, but the knowledge gained from > the suttas is the medicine itself, which alone is able to cure the > illness and its symptoms.' I think this is an excellent simile! We need the medicine, not the exact analysis of the medicine. If we insist on right understanding of the exact analysis of the medicine before we take the medicine, it may be too late by then. Why not take the medicine first and analyse the medicine later after getting cured? Regards, Swee Boon 51243 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 8:25pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. nidive Hi Phil, > Not bodyguard, James. My point is common sense, isn't it? If > someone is going to criticize Abhidhamma, he or she has to > understand Abhidhamma to a certain extent first, right? Otherwise it > is bigotry. I think that's a fair thing to say. So if Sarah or I or > anyone else refer to conditions, simply denying they exist by a > blanket statement won't fly. Especially since this is a group that > was formed to discuss the tipitaka (sp? - see the home page where > the group's founding principles are discussed) which is the Vinaya, > Suttanta and Abhidhamma. > If Swee Boon or you or anyone else have objections to the > word "conditions" it would be good to learn more about conditions so > your criticism will have weight of any kind. Simply saying that > Abhidhamma is not Buddhadhamma won't fly - not at a group that was > formed to discuss Abhidhamma and the other two baskets of Dhamma. > Isn't that common sense? I don't need to know about the 24 conditions in order to criticize. Vague statements such as: ... we do not have to try to have chanda, it arises because of its own conditions together with the citta which develops the eightfold Path. (Nina in Cetasikas) already rings the alarm bell. I even wonder do you know which of the conditions you are referring to when you use the word 'condition' in your statements. I seems to me that you are parroting a belief which you yourself have vague ideas about. Also, I have never read a sutta in which the Buddha declares: Monks, you do not try to have chanda, it arises because of its own conditions. Or, Monks, you do not try to have sati, it arises because of its own conditions. Or, Monks, you do not try to have concentration, it arises because of its own conditions. And so on and so forth. Regards, Swee Boon 51244 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Studying the Satipatthana Sutta bardosein Hi All , For anyone interested in studying the Satipatthana Sutta, Ven. Analayo offers an excellent analysis and commentary with extensive footnotes and references. _Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization_ (Windhorse Publications, 2003; reprinted 2004). It is highly recommended. I first learned about the Ven. Analayo's masterful study last year while listening to one of Bhikku Bodhi's most recent dhamma talks on this sutta. According to him: "this book helps to fill what has long been a glaring gap in the scholarship on Early Buddhism, offering us detailed textual study of the _Sattipatthana Sutta_ the foundational Buddhist discourse on meditation practice. With painstainking thoroughness, Ven. Analayo marshalls the suttas of the Pali canon, works modern scholarship, and the teachings of present-day meditation masters.... His analysis combines the detached objectivity of a scholar with the engaged concern of the practioner for whom meditation is a way of life rather than just a subject of study. This book should prove to be of value to both scholars of Early Buddhism and meditators alike. Ideally, it will encourage in both types of reader the same wholesome synthesis of scholarship and practice that underlies the author's own treatment of the subject." (from the backcover) Hal 51245 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. bardosein Hi Swee Boon, Glad you found the Ven. Nyanaponika's comments helpful. Your additional remarks about the medical simile are worth keeping in mind. Our lives are uncertain, time is precious, and the opportunity to practice the dhamma is rare. I do enjoy reading your posts. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Hal, > > Thank you for this message! ....... >>[N:] Or the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label >>giving an exact analysis of the medicine, but the knowledge gained >>from the suttas is the medicine itself, which alone is able to cure >>the illness and its symptoms.' > >[SB:] I think this is an excellent simile! > > We need the medicine, not the exact analysis of the medicine. > > If we insist on right understanding of the exact analysis of the > medicine before we take the medicine, it may be too late by then. > > Why not take the medicine first and analyse the medicine later after > getting cured? > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 51246 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi Ken H, No problem! Just say that you agree with everything that I have written :-) :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > I am sorry it is taking me so long to reply to you on this thread. > Your latest post has got me stumped - almost as if I have run out of > arguments (heaven forbid!). > > I have a busy schedule today but will come up with something ASAP - > even if it is just to get the ball back in your court. :-) > > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H, > > > > I am going to preface each of my comments with either "fact" > > or "opinion". I treat a "fact" as something that can be verified by > > consulting Suttas whereas "opinion" is something that is outside > the > > Suttas. We can debate "facts" by consulting the ancient texts. I am > > less interested in debating opinions as there may be no resolution > > (i.e. you say "tom-ah-to", I say "tom-ay-to"). > 51247 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 4:20am Subject: Re: Me and Sea matheesha333 Hi Htoo, Sometimes the mind forms visual representations/images of what we have understood/experiencing. metta Matheesha 51248 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. philofillet Hi Swee Boon > I even wonder do you know which of the conditions you are referring to > when you use the word 'condition' in your statements. I seems to me > that you are parroting a belief which you yourself have vague ideas > about. Yes, you're exactly right, which I why I feel so grateful to you for having questioned the way we use "conditions" so loosely. I will now be embarking on a further investigation of these conditions. Of course, it will only be intellectual, and very, very shallow. Only the Buddha penetrated these conditions. Nevertheless, I think there is value to be had by even brushing the surface. As long we don't get carried away and start believing we can attain far more than...ahem...conditions permit! > > Also, I have never read a sutta in which the Buddha declares: > > Monks, you do not try to have chanda, it arises because of its own > conditions. Or, > Monks, you do not try to have sati, it arises because of its own > conditions. Or, > Monks, you do not try to have concentration, it arises because of its > own conditions. > And so on and so forth. I know what you mean. But the point is that when we approach suttas with superficial understanding and lots of lobha mixed in with the wholesome chanda, we will dig up a high quality of *thinking* and mistake it for something deeper. Abhidhamma does not encourage so much speculation so is very helpful for a degree of detachment from the beginning which is not, in my opinion, possible by only reading suttas and practicing intentionally in a way that we believe is offered to us by the suttas. Of course, that's me - others might find the opposite, that Abhidhamma is where intellectual attachment is conditioned. We have different...you know...the "a" word. We disagree on this, and always will, and that's fine. We should follow our own confidence rooted in wisdom. (Wisdom rooted in confidence?) I wish you and all the sati seekers the enlightenment- in-this-lifetime that you are chanda-ing for so chanda-ingly! Seriously, I do wish you well. I am irritable at times, but the Buddha taught to different people in different ways and we should wish each other well instead of competing for Best Dhamma Poster. By the way, today I found this terms "kaamacchanda" which means sensous desire. Please don't forget that chanda can be either wholesome or unwholesome. Phil 51249 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:03am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! philofillet Hi Tep > You are thinking about quitting the futile discussion with those one- > basketers who do not accept the other two baskets? Think again. > The "wall" you are seeing is just a mental image that is conditioned, > some kind of mental formations if you will. If you can't let go, just let it > be !! Oh, I just lost a post I wrote to you. The gist was that yes, sometimes I value diversity of view, which we know is good, but other times I think that within the path there are currents we find, and that by making too much of an effort to accomodate other views, the current loses its vitality. Rob M said something like "I have never learned anything from someone I agreed with completely" or words to that effect (sorry for the paraphrase, Rob) but it's a subtle point and I'm not sure I agree. I think there's a danger that when two Dhamma currents run into each other what happens is the "Phil's understanding vs. Tep's understanding" kind of thing, which at first glance seems like the best way to deepen understanding, but which I think can just harden views and lead to stronger clinging to understanding rather than having it arise and develop in a less forced way. Something like that. But it's interesting. At this point I do feel that it is pretty futile foe me to discuss seriously with someone if we don't agree that Abhidhamma is deep and important and accessible Dhamma - it's like a tricyle race where some of the tricycles have three wheels and some of them have one wheel removed! Haha. Just teasing. But the basis that we need for discussion - what the Buddha taught and what he didn't - can't be decided upon so what kind of helpful current can discussion find? Phil p.s sorry for the redundancy if the post that disappeared does show up as well. 51250 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sutta Supporting a Contention of Mine/ The Key Ideas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 10/8/05 6:24:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, > > ------------------ > SB: >Craving for the attainment of arahantship causes zeal for the > practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. It that sense it is a wholesome > craving. > > Though craving provided the initial impetus for the practice, that > craving is not present during the practice if one practices rightly. > > The same goes with conceit. > ---------------------------------- > > Thank you, Swee Boon, that is what I have always thought you were > saying. > > By all conventional standards, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to > say. Not only is it reasonable, it is undeniable (by conventional > standards). However, in my opinion, it misses the point of the > Buddha's teaching. > > You will remember the Dhammapada quote; "Never by dosa is dosa > overcome, Only by adosa is dosa overcome. This is an eternal truth." ----------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the foregoing not to be pertaining to uprooting anger/aversion in oneself but rather to pertain to the matter of resisting anger/aversion and aggressive action of others. The point of this saying, as I understand it, is that kindness, gentleness, and friendliness are what are affective to deal with the anger and angry actions of others. --------------------------------------- > > In some situations, it seems undeniable that a little dosa helps in > overcoming a greater dosa, but that is not in accordance with the > Dhamma. I believe the same applies for lobha and mana. ---------------------------------------- Howard: As for our wishes to become better people, to make spiritual progress, to make progress towards awakening, and to be of help to others in these regards, there are momentary states in which this wishing is barely infected by conceit or even not at all infected - moments of undefiled chanda that are 100% useful and very powerful, there are lesser quality moments that are still more wholesome than not, and there are moments that are so despoiled by sense of self that they are actually harmful, though they might erroneously appear high minded. It runs the gamut. In no case does mere chanda itself do the trick. (A further comment about that at the end.) But generally, the motive force of chanda, ranging from the kiriya cetana of the arahant through the kusala kamma of lesser great beings down to the utterly despoiled volition of beings sunk deeply into ignorance, is one necessary condition for action. Most of our states of chanda tend more towards tanha than towards a purely functional impetus. That is naturally so, as we begin where we are, and not where we would hope to be. But without that hoping to be, without the desire, even poorly motivated desire, to escape our state of bondage and suffering, we have little chance. Of course, desire alone, even the purest of chanda, will not do the trick. It is necessary, but insufficient. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." :-) --------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ======================== With metta, Howard 51251 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Not bodyguard, James. My point is common sense, isn't it? If > someone is going to criticize Abhidhamma, he or she has to > understand Abhidhamma to a certain extent first, right? Otherwise it > is bigotry. I think that's a fair thing to say. So if Sarah or I or > anyone else refer to conditions, simply denying they exist by a > blanket statement won't fly. Especially since this is a group that > was formed to discuss the tipitaka (sp? - see the home page where > the group's founding principles are discussed) which is the Vinaya, > Suttanta and Abhidhamma. First, I want to apologize for the rather rough tone of my post. Sometimes I just get too excited about these things! ;-)) Second, yes and no you have a point. I just think you need to stop telling people that they shouldn't be in this group if they don't believe what you believe. Do you get my point? This is what the home page for DSG reads: "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." It s a discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding. Does it say anything about agreeing with? My "understanding" of the Tipitaka is not going to match yours, which is what makes this a discussion group. I, and others I believe, am not in this group simply because I get my jollies by disagreeing. I am hear to learn and be inspired by the dhamma. And, as a side note, I don't believe that the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma (to anyone) but I do think it has some value for practice. However, I don't agree, at all, with how the Abhidhamma is interpreted by K.Sujin and subsequently Nina. You are aware that there are other interpretations of the Abhidhamma don't you? Most of the time, what we are discussing in this group is the teaching of K. Sujin, it isn't the Tipitaka. And there is absolutely nothing on the home page about how this group is about the teaching of K. Sujin, it simply reads: "The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket." So, it says nothing about how this group is to develop an "understanding" of K. Sujin, and yet we are all bombarded on a daily basis with excerpts from her talks. Do you see me complaining about that? No, because to each their own. Metta, James 51252 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Thank you for reminding me two things : 1. Some books have decorative covers. 2. Imitators are fake. >James: > > Yeah, Sarah is really awesome, in many ways. But don't be too quick > to judge a book by its cover. We all don't have to try to be like > Sarah (and Jon): 'Robots' on the loose!! ;-)) > Tep: 1. But, those books that look the same inside and outside are boring to look at. 2. Although 100% imitation results in a fake outcome (and may be against the Law), imitating the good qualities of good people is necessary during the initial phase of learning and adapting. Sincerely, Tep ========== 51253 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. bardosein Hi Larry, Thanks for the update and your recommended readings. I've just downloaded the pdf file of Nina's outline of the twenty four conditions and will try to master some of this difficult material, sofaras possible, before the new year. A very concise formulation of the paccaya provided by Ledi Sayadaw in his _Buddhist Philosophy of Relations_ (Wheel Publication No. 331/333) might also prove helpful. I'll be off-grid for the months of Jan and Feb, but will look forward to following this discussion upon my return in March. Regards, Hal > Hi Phil, > > Nina will begin discussing the "Detailed Exposition" of conditioned > arising in Vism. when she finishes the chapter we are on (XIV). I think > this will be around the first of the year and will take about 3 years to > complete. Anyone who has "The Path of Purification" I suggest you review > chapters XV through XVII now. XVII is the one on conditioned arising. > Also Nina has a book on the 24 conditions available at Zolag. This is > rather heady material so I suggest you read it and contemplate it until > you get it. Memorization optional. > > For a succinct analysis see the "Buddhist Dictionary" under both paccaya > and paticcasamuppada. > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > > Larry > 51254 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. buddhatrue Hi Phil (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: I am hear to learn > and be inspired by the dhamma. Oops...typo. Of course I meant: I am HERE to learn and be inspired by the dhamma. (And to think I am going to give my English classes a quiz this week on 'Commonly Confused Words'. Oh, the horror and shame! ;-)) Metta, James 51255 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: Me and Sea htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Sometimes the mind forms visual representations/images of what we have > understood/experiencing. > > metta > > Matheesha ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Matheesa, Thanks for your reply. It is perception that matters. When something is perceived then it may appear as soomething depending on someone's experience. 'Sea' that I described was not that sea. I just chose that word as I choose 'me' as part of heading of the message. So it became 'me and sea'. What I described was that there was a thing, which knows something. And there was a thing, which was known by something. There was no other things. That is there was no disturbing sidetrackings. With Metta, Htoo Naing > 51256 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 7:07am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 570 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The truth of suffering (dukkha saccaa) There are 11 groups of dhamma and they all are dukkha saccaa or the truth of suffering. In summary that truth is '5 clinging aggregates'. Along with this summary there are 12 groups of dhamma that are suffering or dukkha saccaa. 1. jaati (birth/rebirth) 2. jaraa (ageing) 3. marana (death) 4. soka (sorrow) 5. parideva (lamentation) 6. dukkha (pain or physical suffering) 7. domanassa ( mental pain or all mental suffering) 8. upayaasaa (despair) 9. appi ye hi sampayogo (association with unwanted things) 10.pi ye hi vippayogo (dissociation with loved one or wanted things) 11.tam pi iccham na labhati (not gaining of what is wanted) 12.pancupadaana-kkhandhaa (5 clinging aggregates) 6. dukkha (pain or physical suffering) This is pain. This is suffering. These sufferings are those that are apparent to all type of person. All physical pain are not agreeable to any type of person even though arahats have already changed their view on pain and their perception on pain. There are many different types of pain and each is not agreeable at any stage. Example pain are 1. head-ache 2. tooth-ache 3. chest pain of heart attack 4. abdominal pain of many different types 5. back pain 6. joint pain 7. eye-pain 8. ear pain and many other pain. Any oain is not agreeable. All are real suffering. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 51257 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 7, 2005 10:53pm Subject: Kamma leading to short & long life !?! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Life-Length? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings are short-lived, while others long-lived ? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, friend, some man or woman kills living beings and is murderous, bloody-handed, enjoying rage and violence, cruel to all living beings! Because of intending and undertaking such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a state of affliction, in a painful destination, in the purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, after death, is not reborn in an awful state, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn he is short-lived#! These are the actions, friend, that leads to a short future life, namely, kill, murder, bloody-handed brutality, slaughter, violence, and cruelty towards all living beings... However, friend, any man or woman, who is avoiding the killing of living beings, who abstains from killing any living beings, with rod and weapon put down, gentle and kind, such one dwells all friendly to all living beings... Because of intending & undertaking such action, at breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable & happy destination, even in the divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is long-lived%! This way, friend, leading to long life, is namely, avoiding the killing of any living being, refraining from killing living beings, with stick and weapon laid aside, gentle and kind, one abides compassionate to all sentient, living & breathing beings... #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51258 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 0:52am Subject: How to practice revulsion ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Tep Sastri wrote: >How do you practice revulsion towards form, towards feeling, >revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards constructions, >& revulsion towards consciousness... I: Whenever & wherever and by whatever sort 'I' am contacted by an event of form, feeling, perception, mental constructions, and consciousness, 'I' try not to delight in it, not to divulge in it, but to remain continuously & calmly aware of that this also is: Impermanent, passing, transient, decaying, ephemeral & gone! Ultimately dissatisfying, dangerous, addictive, death, & pain! Not Me, not Mine, not I, not what I am, not any self or personal! II: It note that all sorts of form, feeling, perception, constructions, and consciousness Come! and then they immediately Fade Away! Then I say: Bye, Bye, never see you again and smile silently ;-) Then already there is the next passing glitter of appearance: Again I say: Bye, Bye, never meet you again and smile silently ;-) ... etc. ... etc. Hehehe: Thus truly is disgust really relinquished bliss! Samahita : - ] 51259 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Fri Oct 7, 2005 11:58pm Subject: What Buddha and what tree leoaive Hi I have seen a book on different Buddhas. It says name of tree and so far. Today, many Buddha images and statues do not have threes. Is that suppose to be Gotama Buddha? Sometimes it is so mixed and not clear what is what and who is who. Other side: since there is a discription of many Buddhas. What is that for? Why Gotama Buddha gave that and it is in Pali canon? Do you have any ideas? Metta Leo 51260 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 0:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A dacostacharles Hi Tep, You ask, "Does "I" exist because of holding a belief in 'self'?" This is a good/interesting question. From my stand point, "I" is a label, conventional or otherwise, to point the senses to a being. It, "I", helps to differentiate one being from another. So no, "I" does not exist because of holding a belief in 'self'. Self too is a label that points the senses to a being. Can the "I" suffer? No, not the label, but the being can. Therefore, it can be said that the "I" exist because of holding a belief in beings. And since "beings" appear to the senses, they exist whether you believe in them or not. Now if by self you mean essence or eternal soul, well that is a different story. The existence of these things can not be verified. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta PS: I think the other part of your post should be a different thread so I am going to post it as "A question about Self for DSG" -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 03 October, 2005 05:18 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A Hi, Charles (and all) - > Charles D. : > For now, levels are relative, progress is relative -- the important thing is > the present -- ... ... ... > To me Progress would be that morality, wisdom, and concentration >remains with full awareness always -- even when greed, hate, >delusion, any other unpleasant emotion, or unknowing arises. >Thereby, none of "my" thoughts, words, or acts gives rise to a karma > "I" don't want or can't handle. > Tep: Thank you for elaborating "atta" in a simple way. Below is an excerpt from an online article about upadana and atta. I hope you find it useful. Does "I" exist because of holding a belief in 'self'? ... 51261 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005 0:15pm Subject: open windows and grove or park leoaive Hi I was reading one sutra and it says Buddha was in meditating hall with windows wide open and outside was some kind of grove or park. As I understand it is a good condition for meditation. I am living in a California and I have no grove or park outside of my windows. How can I improve my room for more meditative condition and conductive to tranqility? I would really appreciate if you would give me some ideas. Metta Leo 51262 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 0:36am Subject: Kamma leading to Health & Sickness ?!? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Health? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings are healthy, while others are often sick ? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, friend, some man or woman is in the habit of injuring living beings with the hand, a stone, with a stick, another instrument or with a knife! Because of intending and performing such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is reborn in a state of affliction, in a painful destination, in the purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, after death, is not reborn in an awful state, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn, such one is weak, fragile, unhealthy & sick #! These are the actions, friend, leading to future disease: Injuring living beings with the hand, with a stone, stick, other instrument or with a knife! However, friend, any man or woman, who avoids injuring any living being with the hand, with a stone, with a stick, other instrument or with a knife, because of intending & undertaking such action, at breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable & happy destination, even in the divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is well & healthy %! This is the way, friend, leading to health, to be exact: Avoiding all injuring, harming & affliction of any living sentient being, whether with the hand, with any stone, with any stick, or with any knife!... #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51263 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - I think I can't avoid debating your two points made in the message # 51249. But I promise not to be too serious and to quickly wrap it up. Phil's Point 1 : "Rob M said something like "I have never learned anything from someone I agreed with completely" or words to that effect (sorry for the paraphrase, Rob) but it's a subtle point and I'm not sure I agree. I think there's a danger that when two Dhamma currents run into each other what happens is the "Phil's understanding vs. Tep's understanding" kind of thing, which at first glance seems like the best way to deepen understanding, but which I think can just harden views and lead to stronger clinging to understanding rather than having it arise and develop in a less forced way." Tep's Response: RobM 's comment is compatible with the KISS philosophy -- I guess his simple message says there is no new idea when two persons completely agree. In other words, differing points of view can and should enhance wisdom (if you are open-minded). Hardening views and stronger clinging to (same old) understanding are mainly caused by onetrack-mindedness (a kind of moha). You could end up with finger pointing at other people (rather than pointing back at yourself). Phil's Point 2 : A. "But it's interesting. At this point I do feel that it is pretty futile foe me to discuss seriously with someone if we don't agree that Abhidhamma is deep and important and accessible Dhamma - it's like a tricyle race where some of the tricycles have three wheels and some of them have one wheel removed! Haha. Just teasing." B. "But the basis that we need for discussion - what the Buddha taught and what he didn't - can't be decided upon so what kind of helpful current can discussion find?" Tep's Response: 2A : First, forget about defending the Abhidhamma; it is not yours and it is not yourself. The tricycle metaphor is a poor one, though. The ti-pitaka should be compared to a three-story building; the first level represents the Dhamma vinaya (and sila), the second level represents the suttas, and the third level can be compared to the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma came after the Buddha had given the discourses. Therefore it is an addition to the Dhamma vinaya and the suttas. Many monks (whose Dhamma vinaya and sila are perfect) attained the arahantship through listening to the suttas. 2B: It depends on whom you ask the question (i.e. what the Buddha taught and what he didn't). Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > You are thinking about quitting the futile discussion with those > one- > > basketers who do not accept the other two baskets? Think again. > > The "wall" you are seeing is just a mental image that is > conditioned, some kind of mental formations if you will. If you can't let go, just let it be !! > > Oh, I just lost a post I wrote to you. > > The gist was that yes, sometimes I value diversity of view, which > we know is good, but other times I think that within the path there > are currents we find, and that by making too much of an effort to > accomodate other views, the current loses its vitality. 51264 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:05pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice matheesha333 Hi Ken H >KH: Consider two different teachings. Teaching A says, > - Theory is not enough: there has to be practice. > - In truth and reality, there is no self. > > Teaching B simply says, > - Theory is not enough: there has to be practice. > > What is the difference between those two teachings? > > Some people (including myself) would say the difference is > monumental, and no progress can be made along the Path until that > monumental difference is fully appreciated. M: Whether you accidentally understood anatta through a moment of satipatthaana or whether it happened when you intentionally decided to cultivate the satipatthana; panna is panna. What you understood is the same. The intention to practice with its avijja component of atta does not carry over to a moment of insight perhaps days or weeks away, and taint the insight. If it were the case with intentions in their thousands right through the day would make the rising of insight impossible, and hence the buddhist path improbable whatever method you adopt. On the other hand it is like someone learning to swim trying understand exactly what it is like to be in water, for decades, without actually getting into the pool. How much ever you read and think about it, you still need actual satipatthana to really know it and see it. When you get into the pool the doubts will vanish. I would say sooner rather than later. For me these theories are from the mind of someone who hasnt actually had much luck with meditation/had poor guidance or hasnt tried it at all. if you have a good instructor in the pool with you, you wil not sink, and learning will be much faster! You might think 'well, what is there to practice, all there is to do is to see'. Which leads us to.. > Or do you think those 7 or less years might refer to a total of some > kind? I don't know, but if the Buddha was referring to a total, then > that total might exclude time spent in sleeping (for example). And > what about the time we spend chasing after sense pleasures - that > shouldn't be counted in the 7 or less years, should it? M: Ven. Ananda (ven moggallana?) asks the buddha (ven Sariputta?)why is it that someone attains faster and others slower. He replies it is because of the differences in maturation of the faculties. Panna is only one faculty. Sutamaya panna is only a part of that. There is also sadda, viriya, sati and samadhi. 7 years or less is indeed continuous satipatthana practice, not sporadic. It is possible to be aware with clear comprehension dhammas arising and passing away the whole day. If you can do this there would be no discussion of understanding the importance of nibbida. It would be aparent. The strings of causation would be aparent. Thrilakshana would be aparent. Nama rupa would be aparent. Things which take learning for decades would be clear within weeks, even though you might not have the labels handy to have nice long discussion about them. because you wil be seeing reality created using all the abhidhammic mechanisms 'before your own eyes.' It is also clear that its not possible to do this 'as is'. Thats why practice is required. The mind needs cultivation, bhavana. A little twist of dhamma logic seems to have closed off all avenues for practice for people so deeply commited to dhamma and it does disturb me. Cultivation of Sati is required to be mindful right through day, and for subtle dhammas at that. Cultivation of samadhi is required to 'putt(ing) aside greed & distress with reference to the world', so that it will not be disturbed by stray thoughts of lobha and dosa, but remain focused on dhammas present. Viriya is required to continue this practice and not be sporadic. Sadda is required to just undertake this task. Then finally a good friend is required to guide you. This is not impossible but quite possible. It will be panna nourished dirctly from the source. I belive there are people of the 4 stages in this world. Perhaps even fully fledged arahaths. That brilliant man would be in a forest/monastary somewhere quietly mindful, free from the world. metta Matheesha 51265 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:09pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. James' Excellent Observation about DSG buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Many times very good points made in a post, but they are overlooked simply because those posts got hidden in the fast stream of DSG messages. The following is James' valid and highly relevant observation about our discussion group. By echoing his message I hope it will get the attention it deserves. > James: > Most of the time, what we are discussing in this group is the teaching of K. Sujin, it isn't the Tipitaka. And there is absolutely nothing on > the home page about how this group is about the teaching of K. > Sujin, it simply reads: > > "The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the >guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin >Boriharnwanaket." > > So, it says nothing about how this group is to develop > an "understanding" of K. Sujin, and yet we are all bombarded on a > daily basis with excerpts from her talks. ... ... > Thank you , James. Good points ! Regards, Tep =========== 51266 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A buddhistmedi... Dear Charles D. (and all) - >Charles D. : >PS: I think the other part of your post should be a different thread >so I am going to post it as "A question about Self for DSG" Thank you for initiating a "coming soon" thread on Self -- one of the main themes at DSG. Your answer to the question, "Does 'I' exist because of holding a belief in 'self'?", is a little complicated for me. You wrote, " 'I' is a label, conventional or otherwise, to point the senses to a being. It, 'I', helps to differentiate one being from another." But, Charles, why is there the motivation to be different from another? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > You ask, "Does "I" exist because of holding a belief in 'self'?" > > This is a good/interesting question. From my stand point, "I" is a label, conventional or otherwise, to point the senses to a being. It, "I", helps to differentiate one being from another. So no, "I" does not exist because of holding a belief in 'self'. Self too is a label that points the senses to a being. > > Can the "I" suffer? No, not the label, but the being can. Therefore, it can be said that the "I" exist because of holding a belief in beings. And since "beings" appear to the senses, they exist whether you believe in them or not. > > Now if by self you mean essence or eternal soul, well that is a different story. The existence of these things can not be verified. > (snipped) 51267 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 1:46pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice buddhistmedi... Dear Matheesha (and all) - There are good, very good points you made in message # 51264 that I am happy to echo them for other members to hear. Like the good observation made by James in the other post, I don't want yours to be overlooked and forgotten. Matheesha's Good Points: ------------------------------------- 1. "The intention to practice with its avijja component of atta does not carry over to a moment of insight perhaps days or weeks away, and taint the insight. If it were the case with intentions in their thousands right through the day would make the rising of insight impossible..." 2. "It is possible to be aware with clear comprehension dhammas arising and passing away the whole day. If you can do this there would be no discussion of understanding the importance of nibbida. It would be aparent. The strings of causation would be aparent. Thrilakshana would be aparent. Nama rupa would be aparent." 3. "Cultivation of Sati is required to be mindful right through day, and for subtle dhammas at that. Cultivation of samadhi is required to 'putt(ing) aside greed & distress with reference to the world', so that it will not be disturbed by stray thoughts of lobha and dosa, but remain focused on dhammas present." Thank you, Matheesha, for making those relevant practical points. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > > > On the other hand it is like someone learning to swim trying > understand exactly what it is like to be in water, for decades, > without actually getting into the pool. How much ever you read and > think about it, you still need actual satipatthana to really know it > and see it. When you get into the pool the doubts will vanish. I > would say sooner rather than later. For me these theories are from > the mind of someone who hasnt actually had much luck with > meditation/had poor guidance or hasnt tried it at all. if you have a > good instructor in the pool with you, you wil not sink, and learning > will be much faster! > 51268 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! philofillet Hi Tep > RobM 's comment is compatible with the KISS philosophy I read Sarah talking about KISS the other day and I had no idea what was going on - I thought perhaps she had gone off her rocker due to the preparations for their trip or contracted malaria or something. What does KISS mean? -- I guess his > simple message says there is no new idea when two persons > completely agree. In other words, differing points of view can and > should enhance wisdom (if you are open-minded). Hardening views > and stronger clinging to (same old) understanding are mainly caused > by onetrack-mindedness (a kind of moha). You could end up with > finger pointing at other people (rather than pointing back at yourself). Not convinced. What I mean by hardening views is much, much subtler than getting one's back up and saying "no way!" Clinging to self is much, much subtler than we realize, I think. And the bhavana aspect of discussing with people we agree with is perhaps underestimated. As we know, having our understanding of the Buddha's teaching confirmed in daily life is one of the main ways bhavana takes place. And posting here is daily life. I really appreciate this cumulative effect. Of course we can learn new things from people we disagree with. Of course. But there is definitely a view-forming aspect we should be aware of as well. Dhamma should not be about views that can be expressed in words - it should be about understanding rising in the moment. That appreciation of the moment is lost when we get engaged in wrangling, it seems to me. (listening to A. Sijin, or discussing wiwth people who appreciate her approach always involves lots and lots of reminders to return to the present moment, which is the only way understanding can arise.) And there are outbreaks of bickering (usually instigated by me) that I know for a fact (I have heard off- list) cause valued DSG members to decide to quit. (Oooh...how gossipy...my lips are sealed!) One such person told me "DSG is becoming like Dhammalist", not that I know what Dhammalist is. I guess it's a bickery Yahoo group. I will leave it there. Last word to you, monsieur Tep. Phil 51269 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] open windows and grove or park lbidd2 Leo:"How can I improve my room for more meditative condition and conductive to tranqility? " Hi Leo, Clean, simple, and quiet. That should do it. Larry 51270 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:35pm Subject: UPs on paccayas 1- mutuality, conascence, repetition conditions philofillet Hi all I've started digging into paccayas (conditional relations) a little more deeply. For those that are interested, I will be posting some posts from the useful posts files in addition to other material. Personally, I won't be getting involved in any debates about the validity of the teaching of paccayas because I don't know enough about them. If Rob M or Htoo or anyone else who has knowledge of paccayas has understanding that differs from these UPs we would benefit from hearing it. Thanks in advance. Phil > The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before those > bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different conditions. > One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and cetasikas > would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other up. > Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). Simultaneous with one > reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one and the > same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the other 3 > khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. So it goes on. More condtions help > explain why any given reality arises at any time. (snip) > As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the > present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding and > awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this moment, the > more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned nature. A > moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa vedana > by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we know, > only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities. > However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins to > grow...even intellectually in the beginning. 51271 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 5:39pm Subject: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi all Here is a list of the 24 paccayas Phil > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object > 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality > 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence > 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma > 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana > 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation > 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance > > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult > without the basics. msg. #640 51272 From: "Tom Westheimer" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 6:59pm Subject: The Perfections Chapter 10 nsdragonman Does anyone on the list have the text of the perfections chapter 10 that they could send me? I have found 3 copies of part 2 and I am confused if I imported it a few times or what. If I could refer to the text I could sort it out quickly. As Nina is in India I thought others might have a copy floating around. If not I can wait thanks tom 51273 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! philofillet Hi Tep I just re-read this post of mine. How silly most of it was, as usual. > Clinging to > self is much, much subtler than we realize, I think. Duh! No kidding. > And there are outbreaks of bickering > (usually instigated by me) that I know for a fact (I have heard off- > list) cause valued DSG members to decide to quit. (Oooh...how > gossipy...my lips are sealed!) One such person told me "DSG is > becoming like Dhammalist", not that I know what Dhammalist is. I > guess it's a bickery Yahoo group. What a gossipy little whiner I am sometimes. I'd appreciate it if you would just disregard this. People will quit and not quit, due to conditions. What does it matter, really, either for the people who quit or the people left behind? It is understanding at this moment that is important. The importance of DSG and what we do or don't do here pales in comparison with a single moment of understanding a paramattha dhamma. ("reality") I am going to be stick to paccayas and paticca samupaddha for the next few months so I imagine there will be less whining from me, but who knows? Phil 51274 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] UPs on paccayas 1- mutuality, conascence, repetition conditions lbidd2 Phil: "I will be posting some posts from the useful posts files in addition to other material." Hi Phil, Good idea. Very interesting. Larry 51275 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi Phil - Thank you for letting me say my last words. It surprises me that I found myself in good agreement with most of what you wrote in this post (#51268). Phil : What does KISS mean? Tep: It is an acronym for 'Keep It Simple Stupid'. Phil's Agreeable Words: -- Clinging to self is much, much subtler than we realize, I think. -- Dhamma should not be about views that can be expressed in words - it should be about understanding rising in the moment. That appreciation of the moment is lost when we get engaged in wrangling, it seems to me. >Phil : One such person told me "DSG is becoming like Dhammalist", not that I know what Dhammalist is. I guess it's a bickery Yahoo group. Tep: So let there be no bickering about anything from now! I am relieved to know that it was not your intention to turn DSG into "a bickery Yahoo group". Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > RobM 's comment is compatible with the KISS philosophy > > I read Sarah talking about KISS the other day and I had no idea > what was going on - I thought perhaps she had gone off her rocker > due to the preparations for their trip or contracted malaria or > something. What does KISS mean? > > 51276 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 10:22pm Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - I thought I already had my last words. :-) > Phil : > What a gossipy little whiner I am sometimes. I'd appreciate it if > you would just disregard this. Tep: No problem with me ! > Phil : >People will quit and not quit, due to conditions. What does >it matter, really, either for the people who quit or the people >left behind? It is understanding at this moment that is important. >The importance of DSG and what we do or don't do here pales >in comparison with a single moment of understanding a >paramattha dhamma. ("reality") > Tep: I agree with you except for the "single moment" philosophy. > Phil : > I am going to be stick to paccayas and paticca samupaddha for the > next few months so I imagine there will be less whining from me, but > who knows? > Tep : That is a good project, Phil. I hope it become successful. By the way, its success is controllable to a certain extent. Regards, Tep ========= 51277 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and all) - I have a quick question. Hope you don't mind answering it (but not debating it, please). You wrote: >All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really >understand Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. Tep: Since Nibbana is unconditioned, then how can Nibbana have anything to do with our understanding of these 24 conditions, or vice versa? Regards, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Here is a list of the 24 paccayas > > Phil > > > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root > > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object (snipped) > > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance > > > > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand > > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very > difficult > > without the basics. > 51278 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 11:17pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi Rob M, -------------- RM: > Please review my comments below and let me know if you disagree with anything that I have presented as "fact". Then let me know which of my "opinions" you disagree with. I think that I can guess...:-) <. . .> Opinion: I understand your position though I disagree with it. ------------- Correction: You do not understand my position. If you did, you would agree with it. :-) ------------------- RM: > Opinion: I believe that what is called "formal vipassana meditation" can be of great benefit, though I find the name to be an oxymoron. ------------------ It is an oxymoron because it defies logic. (And belief in something that defies logic is wrong belief.) -------------------------------------- RM: > Fact: The Buddha defined Right Concentration as attaining the jhanas (see SN XLV.8). --------------------------------------- The jhanas were practised to their full extent before the Dhamma became known. Therefore, it is impossible that the Buddha would have defined Right Concentration (pertaining to the NEP) as the jhanas. If a sutta seems to give that impression, then it needs further explanation. (BTW, jhana cannot take Nibbana as its object.) --------- RM: > Fact: Attaining jhana requires intense concentration --------- Not in the way people might think. All consciousness contains concentration (samadhi). All kusala consciousness contains kusala- samadhi and samatha (calm). Jhana meditators have very strong kusala consciousness, and, as a result, they have very strong samadhi and samatha. Going about it in reverse order (concentration before kusala) is called "formal jhana meditation" and does no good at all. ------------------ RM: > Opinion: The only way to achieve this level of intense concentration is to maintain a fixed posture over an extended time period; one does not attain jhana walking to the supermarket... one must remain motionless in a posture that supports motionless for an extended period (i.e. cross legged with straight back). ------------------ We might need to consult Htoo on this. I don't know about posture but I suspect isolation is mainly connected with causing jhana cittas to arise repeatedly with no intervening bhavana or sense-door cittas. -------------------------- RM: > Fact: It is the mental state that defines jhana; sitting in a full lotus for one hour is meaningless if the mental state is not appropriate. -------------------------- You have not provided enough information for me to comment on. If, as I suspect, you define 'state of mind' in a conventional way - as a kind of mood - then I would still not agree it is appropriate. ------------------------------------------ RM: > Interesting Fact: Experiencing Nibbana does not require intense concentration; there are many stories of people achieving sainthood while doing the equivalent of "going to the supermarket". ------------------------------------------ It is an interesting fact, and it is also one that is stated continually on DSG. Vipassana development is not always (to put it mildly) accompanied by jhana. --------------- KH: > > Can your definition of formal meditation include lobha, dosa and moha? >===== RM: > Fact: Jhana mental states never ever include lobha, dosa or moha. The Abhidhamma treats jhana mental states as kusala and kusala mental states never include unwholesome roots. ------------------------- Let me be specific: "Can your definition of FORMAL meditation include lobha, dosa and moha?" If the so-called meditator is concentrating as hard as he can, but in an akusala way (e.g., with craving for happy states), is he strengthening conditions for samatha or for dosa? -------------------------- <. . .> RM: > Opinion: I have never seen any references to "ultimate realities" in the Suttas (I have looked very hard - Ven. Nyanatiloka is of the same opinion in his "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines"). -------------------------- Grrr! As has been explained to you over and over again, you have seen hundreds of references to ultimate realities in the suttas. But you have an inexplicable insistence on seeing the word "paramattha" in front of the word "dhamma." ----------------------------------- RM: > Fact: Akusala citta can never be bhavana. ----------------------------------- Agreed! Akusala conditions more akusala. --------------- RM: > Opinion: If by "understood differently" you mean that other sects saw jhanas as an end in themselves whereas the Buddha saw jhanas as part of a larger picture... then I agree --------------- OK, but I think you see them as a necessary factor for enlightenment. In the Buddha's day, a tiny minority of the disciples who attained magga-citta did so by seeing jhana-citta with mundane insight. Even though those halcyon days are long gone, millions of ill- informed Buddhists insist on trying to replicate that most difficult of difficult attainments. ------------------ RM: > Opinion: I do not believe that the definitions of kusala / akusala were agreed upon by all sects; in fact in reviewing some of the views put forward in the Brahmajala Sutta, I am pretty confident that some of the sects had very different moral views from the Buddha. So I cannot say that I agree with your statement that "There was no misapprehension that the akusala pleasant feeling that arose with attachment could ever condition samatha." ------------------ OK, but I was only referring to genuine jhana meditators (regardless of which sect they belonged to). ----------------------------- RM: > Fact: Many of the sects believed that specific actions were key to purification. There were sects who believed that behaving like a dog or like a cow was the way to purify oneself. The Buddha defined clinging to wrong rites and rituals (silabbata-paramasa) as a fetter that is only uprooted when one becomes a Sotapanna. Opinion: The above fact may fly in the face of your statement above. ----------------------------- No, I was talking about jhana meditators, not dog imitators. -------------- RM: > Opinion: I do not agree with your assessment that Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka have wrongly grasped the Dhamma. -------------- I will steer clear of that. :-) We would do better to examine specific statements and decide whether or not they concur with the texts. That way, we can leave personalities out of it. ----------------------- KH: > > Yes, it should be here and now - that is extremely important. > Constant vipassana would be a bit too much to expect, though, don't > you think? >===== RM: > Opinion: If it is "here and now" then it is "constant", isn't it? Is there any other time period other than the "here and now"? Doesn't "here and now" cover everything? THere is a Sutta (wish that I could find the reference to move this to the "fact" column :-) ) which talks about a prisoner carying a pot of oil on his head. If he lets any oil drop, then an executioner would kill him immediately. There were dancing girls on one side of the road and musicians on the other side. When first hearing this example, we think that mindfulness is the state of mind of the prisoner. This is wrong. The Buddha is saying that mindfulness is like the pot of oil that must be guarded as if one were guarding ones own life. ---------------- I'll break that up a bit: ---- "If it is "here and now" then it is "constant", isn't it? ---- Sorry to be pedantic but, no, it is not constant: it is fleeting. ----- "Is there any other time period other than the "here and now"? ----- There is only the here and now. Concepts of "time" and " other time" are illusory. In reality, there are only dhammas. ------ "Doesn't "here and now" cover everything? ----------- Yes, everything that is real. --------------- "There is a Sutta The Buddha is saying that mindfulness is like the pot of oil that must be guarded as if one were guarding ones own life. --------------- Hmmm, that is a tricky one. But if (as we agree) there is only the present moment, then the Buddha must have been describing how sati or panna (and maybe the other Right cetasikas) can experience another dhamma (I'm not sure which in this case). He can't have meant continuing anything from the present to the future. But perhaps we can come back to that when you find the reference. -------------------------- RM: > Fact: The Buddha said, "Satin ca khvaham bhikkhave sabbatthikam vadami" (O Bhikkhus, I declare mindfulness to be essential in every act) - sorry I don't have the Sutta reference. --------------------------- We agree there is only the present moment, therefore, by "every act" the Buddha could only have meant, "however the present moment might be described in conventional terms." The practice of satipatthana does need to be continual: it can follow akusala moments (possibly taking an akusala nama as its object) or it can follow plain kusala or vipaka and so on. But it can only know a dhamma that is arising now. Belief in the reality of any other time is incompatible with satipatthana. ------------------------------------- RM: > Fact: According to the Abhidhamma, Akusala cittas (without mindfulness) can arise in all beings except Arahants. ------------------------------------- Yes, as can kusala cittas without mindfulness. --------------------------- RM: > Opinion: Based on the above, I don't think that constant mindfulness is too much to ask (for an Arahant). ---------------------------- True, although arahants can have cittas that take concepts as object. At those times therefore, there might be sati, but not satipatthana. ----------------------------------- RM: > Opinion: Jhana is far more than "one type of citta". It is an element in the Noble Eightfold Path and is one of the key themes repeated through the Suttas. It is a core part of the Buddha's teaching. ---------------------------------- As I have said, I don't think it is a path factor. And I am not sure it is always a core part of the teaching. Do you remember, for example, the sutta in which a traveller, having heard about the magical powers of arahants, went in search of some? When he meet a group of arahants, they had no magical powers and he asked them why. They told him they had attained by insight alone (no jhana). ----------------------- RM: > Fact: In SN XLV.8, the Buddha defines Right Concentration as being the four jhanas. ----------------------- We've had this one! :-) ----------------------------- RM: > Fact: In AN IX.36, the Buddha said, "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception." ------------------------------ I can see how you might get the wrong impression. :-) Without looking it up, I suspect the discourse was speaking to (or maybe about) monks who practised jhana and who were able to see jhana citta with insight. To other monks, and to nearly all laypeople, the Buddha spoke in different terms. As I have argued before, monks who practised jhana - even if they did not use it as a vehicle for vipassana - could attain Magga-citta with higher concentration than could other ariyans. All ariyans attain with samma-samadhi as strong as in the first jhana, but those who have developed the higher jhanas attain with correspondingly higher samma-samadhi. (Maybe the sutta was referring to that.) ------------------------------------------- KH: > > In the later stages of samatha development, when the meditator has > mastered morality (suppressed immorality), it becomes possible for > javana cittas at the mind-door to repeatedly arise uninterrupted by > any other kind of citta. > ===== RM: > Fact: This is not how the Abhidhamma describes things. See BB's CMA p169 (I suspect that you are not interested in the technical details) ------------------------------------------- P169 is referring to a different aspect of jhana. Htoo, and other DSG members before him, have explained the process in detail. I can still see Htoo's illustration with letters standing for the different cittas. It went something like bbbpdssvjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj....... -------------- RM: > Opinion: Straight backed sitting becomes necessary when one wants to attain jhanas. Homesless life becomes necessary when one wants to renounce. --------------- I couldn't disagree more (with the second part). The householders' life can be perfectly suitable for renunciation and enlightenment. ------------------------- RM: > Fact: If the meditator becomes distracted by an akusala citta, he risks losing the meditation object temporarily. There are many examples of meditators re-entering jhanas. Jhanas can arise repeatedly (unlike the change of lineage for saints which arise only once and cannot be "cancelled"). --------------------------- I don't remember the explanation. Since such a long time is involved in establishing jhana, loosing the meditation object might mean it is too late to start again (in this lifetime). (?) Someone recently quoted an example in which a jhana-meditator (I think it was the Bodhisatta), while flying through the air, caught a glimpse of a naked woman. There was no more jhana for him! --------------------- RM: > Fact: Achieving right concentration of the NEP requires jhanas. --------------------- That's the third or fourth time we've seen that fact. And it is still wrong! :-) ------------- RM: > Opinion: Sustained, intense concentration can only be done when one is motionless and the body is supported such as arises in sitting posture. Opinion: no difference :-) see above. Opinion: Not necessarily incorrectly based <. . .> Opinion: "Formal vipassana meditation" can give one the experiential background to lay a foundation for mental development. -------------------------- I strongly disagree. The idea of formal vipassana meditation is basically due to a desire for gee-whiz experiences and it is a wrong path. --------------------- Metta, Rob M :-) --------------------- Metta Ken H (Phew! No wonder I kept that in the "too hard" basket.) :-) 51279 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 0:52am Subject: Right Concentration = Jhanas? robmoult Hi Ken H, Your reply covered a lot of territory. I am going to reply in stages. To start, I would like to take one of the key points out of our discussion which I feel is critical; do the Suttas define Right Concentration as Jhanas? I gave this as a "fact" and you have disputed it. I gave a Sutta (SN XLV.8) which (in my opinion) clearly equates the two. I got this reference from Access to Insight. Can you give an alternate interpretation of this Sutta or can you provide another Sutta reference which defines Right Concentration as something else other than the Jhanas? Let's talk about this one first before moving on to the other issues (some of the other issues are linked to this one). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I am of the opinion that attaining jhanas is not required to gain enlightenment. I belive that Bhikkhu Bodhi gave a detailed analysis of this issue and came to the same conclusion. 51280 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 10:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What Buddha and what tree mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma... Hi there... There are 3 vehicles of enlightenment which are: 1. Sammasambuddha 2. Sainthood 3. Silence Buddha Before our Gotama Buddha, there has been thousands and thousands of Sammasambuddha (or what we call genarally Buddha) and Silence Buddhas. And off course with Buddhas, there are even more saints who experienced Nibbana. I believe all Buddhas meditate and gain enlightenment from there and our Gotama Buddha meditate under a Bodhi tree. There are texts of future buddha on other types of trees. No doubts this type of texts are important but more importantly for each of us is to walk the path to enlightenment. I guess that is our main purpose of existance in this world. Otherwise it will just be the sustainance of the human species. I like this saying... hahaha. Any way, our Gotama Buddha did bring up 28 past Buddhas which have direct relation to Him. Gotama starts walking the path of enlightenment from that moment onwards. This is where Gotama (in that time, he is just a lay person) give dana (charity) to the Buddha and with that Kusala Actions, he made an wish to be a SammasamBuddha one day. And after 28 Buddhas (a very long time), he finally perfected all his 30 perfections to be a SammaSamBuddha and become our current Buddha, Gotama Buddha. So we, lay people usually do kusala actions and we always make a wish(s). Those normal people would most probably wish for a better life or rewards or having children or etc. etc. but some are little wiser and wish for enlightenment. So what are the functions of Buddhas ?? For Sammasambuddha, they are capable to teach thur their teaching would enlightenment some of us if our perfections is perfects and able to understand His teachings. For the rest of the lay people, it could be the beginning of a long journey for us to make aspirations and wishes. And off course, there are some who just enjoy the kusala kamma from doing good deeds to the Buddha. However Silence Buddha won't be able to teach thus they do provide opportunity for us to do good deeds and with this kusala kamma, we could make aspirations or wishes to start our journey to be a Buddha or a saints. Doing good deeds to the Buddha generate heavy kusala kamma which will conditions our wishes to come true. To answer your second question, why pali ?? During our Gotama Buddha times, Pali is a dying langauge. There are many more dielet but the Buddha still insist to use Pali. The explaination is that Pali langauge is a universal langauge which understandable by all the 31 planes of existances and all 10000 world systems. I think basically it means Pali is a universal langauge which other beings can understand. We can use other langauge such as english or etc, but it will only be those who learned english and perhaps some earth bound deva who previous life knew english would be able to understand. That's why Pali is still used today as our chanting can be understood by all 31 planes of existances. Who knows, perhaps a deva could be flying over your home and heard your chantings and would always come to listen thus will also protect you from harm and dangers. Any way, chanting is kusala kamma which results in good results... I guess I have taken too much of your time having this long mail. Hope you enjoy it. Metta mr39515 --- "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > Hi > > I have seen a book on different Buddhas. It says > name of tree and so > far. Today, many Buddha images and statues do not > have threes. Is that > suppose to be Gotama Buddha? Sometimes it is so > mixed and not clear > what is what and who is who. > Other side: since there is a discription of many > Buddhas. What is that > for? Why Gotama Buddha gave that and it is in Pali > canon? > Do you have any ideas? > > Metta > Leo > 51281 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Kamma leading to Beauty or Ugliness ?!? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Beauty? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings are beautiful, while others are ugly ? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, friend, some man or woman is of an angry and irritable temperament, even when criticized a little, such one is offended, becomes angry, hostile, and resentful, and retorts with anger, hate and bitterness... Because of intending and performing such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is reborn in a state of affliction, in a miserable destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, right after death, is not reborn in an state of deprivation, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn such one is ugly, unattractive, unsightly and repulsive #! These are the actions, friend, leading to future ugliness: One is often angry, and of easily irritable temperament, even when criticized a little, such one is offended, becomes angry, hostile, resentful, & retorts hate & bitterness! However, friend, any man or woman, who is neither angry nor irritable even when criticized a lot, such one is not offended, does neither become angry, nor hostile, nor revengeful, nor does such display anger, hate, or bitterness, because of intending & undertaking such good action, at breakup of the body, right after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable and happy destination, even in the divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is beautiful %! This is the way, friend, leading to beauty, one is not angry and of easily irritable temperament, even when criticized a little one is not offended, one does neither become angry, nor hostile, nor resentful, nor does one display any anger, hatred, nor any bitterness... #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 51282 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:24am Subject: Pilgrimage eCard dsgmods Dear All A quick note (or rather, a short note, as there's nothing quick about the internet service in Bodh Gaya) to say that your 2 loose robots are now in the third day of the trip, visiting the site of the Buddha's enlightenment and other places nearby and not so nearby (including Nalanda, which features highly in the life of Ven Sariputta, and Rajgir/Vultures Peak and Veluvanna/the Bambboo Grove which were the settingsfor many of the suttas. We are also enjoying follwowing the exchanges on the list. This evening we have a puja at the stupa, then tomorrow set off on the long trip to Benares (12-14 hours in the bus). Jon (and Sarah) 51283 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote:... Hallo Ken H, Rob M and all Ken, you are making things a little bit to complicated to me. I knew two different discussions: - Insight-meditation (aka mindfulnes or - in western countries - vipassana) versus concentration (aka absorption, samatha-meditation). Discussion-point: which of the two is the best? - Formal meditation versus daily life practice. Discussion-point: which of the two is the best? Both discussions are - in my opinion - wrong. - 'Insight meditation' has to do with the aspect 'right mindfulness' of the Noble Eightfold Path. This aspect and 'right concentration' had to be practised both (and the other six too, of course) ! But not always practised at the same moment, a golden rule is: doing one thing at a time any time. - Jhana in daily life will be difficult, I have no experience with it. But mindful one can be in 'formal meditatiopn': sitting or walking. And one can be it in daily life. These two ways are strenthening each other. Two other remarks about your discussion with Rob: - You said: "The householders' life can be perfectly suitable for renunciation and enlightenment": I agree, the dichotomy 'homesess life' (meant is: being a monk) versus 'householder' (what an oldfashioned term in itself already) is cultural and not spiritual based. Said in DSG terms: this dichotomy is a concept, is no ultimately reality. Something else is of course is that's not easy to renunciate and get enlightened. - You said "Vipassana development is not always (to put it mildly) accompanied by jhana." What do you mean by this? Of course being mindful to what reaches the sense-doors (an important aspect of vipassana-meditation) can not be accompanied by jhana; as far as I understand in jhana the sense-doors are closed; or am I a simple mind? And Rob, in your message of some minutes ago you said: I am of the opinion that attaining jhanas is not required to gain enlightenment. I belive that Bhikkhu Bodhi gave a detailed analysis of this issue and came to the same conclusion." Joop: I'm glad to hear that. Metta Joop 51284 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi Tep > I have a quick question. Hope you don't mind answering it (but not > debating it, please) > > You wrote: > > >All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really > >understand Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. > > Tep: Since Nibbana is unconditioned, then how can Nibbana have > anything to do with our understanding of these 24 conditions, or vice > versa? Actually, I didn't write that. I am posting "useful posts" from the files. Not bothering to put the original poster's name because it seems irrelevant. (Actually, that would be interesting. If we always read posts without any way of identifying the poster before reading, how much less biased we would be when reading!) I didn't even read the bit at the end that you have quoted to tell the truth. I just wanted to post a useful reference list of the 24 paccayas. Should have been more careful. Well, I guess nibbana is when there are no more conditions arising, isn't it? So we understand intellectually that the paccayas are just more fuel that will be used up and gone? I don't know. I never think about nibbana, to tell the truth. It seems beyond our ability to think about it to any useful degree except to say something like "all the fuel is used up" which I think is the literal meaning in Pali, isn't it? Phil 51285 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! philofillet Hi Tep > Tep : That is a good project, Phil. I hope it become successful. > By the way, its success is controllable to a certain extent. Interesting. Well, the motivations were many and subtler than I can know but the ones that stand out seems to be Swee Boon pointing out that I use "conditions" so loosely but don't really know what they are and also the way Larry stays on his project in such a diligent way. (It happened before I came to DSG, but I think he posted passages from Abhidhamma in Daily Life for more than a year, the way Sarah is with Cetasikas, and Htoo is with his Dhamma threads. We can see lots of examples of diligent Dhamma studying here. Oh, I forgot your posts on the breathing treatise! You are very diligent too. Will I continue? Is it controllable? Well, every time I post there will be a different motivation, many motivations all mixed together. There could be wholesome virya and chanda to share Dhamma, there could be lobha or mana to be admired or not seen as a person who doesn't follow through on his intentions , there could be restlessness, who knows. There will almost certainly be a lot of lobha to possess the knowledge of paccayas as a key to unlocking understanding. Wholese chanda will be there as well at times. Who knows? There is no self that can control it, we all know that. Well you said "controllable to a certain extent" and of course the choice to post or not arises and gives a sense of control. I'm not saying I sit here in a pool of spittle and urine waiting to be jolted awake by conditions to do something! Daily life is full of conditioned choices arising. I mean, even in psychology that's true, isn't it? We do things because we have done them successfully before. Is there any choice we make in life that that doesn't apply to, even in psychology? The only difference is that the Buddha penetrated these conditions to a degree undreamed of by psychologists. Oops! Debating again. See how uncontrollable it was? :) Phil 51286 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > Here is a list of the 24 paccayas > > Phil > > > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root > > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object > > 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance > > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority > > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity > > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence > > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality > > 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support > > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support > > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence > > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence > > 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition > > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma > > 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result > > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment > > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty > > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana > > 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path > > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association > > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation > > 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence > > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence > > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance > > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance > > > > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand > > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very > difficult > > without the basics. > > msg. #640 > Could you provide a brief definition for each of these 24 conditions (with as little Pali as possible ;-)? There are some I don't understand. Good luck with this thread. I will be reading. ;-) Metta, James 51287 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi James > Could you provide a brief definition for each of these 24 conditions > (with as little Pali as possible ;-)? There are some I don't > understand. Good luck with this thread. I will be reading. ;-) I think I'm going to start with the first one (hetu condition) and work with them in the order in that list, providing some brief passages about them from B. Bodhi, Ledi Sayadaw (sp?) and Nina's book. So it'll take a few weeks, at least. You can google up some definitions in the meantime, I'm sure. Or just wait on the edge of your seat, burning with unwholesome desire and/or wholesome chanda for the next installment. Phil 51288 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:46am Subject: Conditions Part 1 robmoult Hi All, The first six volumes of the Abhidhamma Pitaka focus on classifying paramattha dhammas. This analysis supports the concept of anatta (non- self). Once something is broken into its constituent parts, it can be seen that there is no "self". The final volume of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Patthana (Conditional Relations), explains the ways in which one thing can be a condition for another thing to arise. This shows how one thing can be related to another. These methods of synthesis must be understood to appreciate paticcasamuppada (dependent origination). Before studying conditional relations, it is important to understand concepts and realities (paramattha dhammas). For example, hearing is conditioned by sound falling upon the ear-sense. Both sound and ear- sense are rèpas which also arise because of their own conditions and therefore must fall away. Therefore, the reality that they condition (hearing) cannot last either. In spite of our study of nama and rupa, we may still find the awareness (sati) arises very seldom. One of the causes of lack of sati may be the fact that we did not yet study in detail the namas and rupas with their various conditions. Realities do not arise by their own power; they are dependent on other phenomenon which makes them arise. There is not any reality which arises from a single cause; there is concurrence of several conditions through which realities arise. For example, when tasting food, tasting-consciousness is a vipaka citta (result) produced by kamma. This tasting-consciousness is also dependent on the rupa tasting-sense, which also arises because of kamma. Tasting- consciousness also depends on the cetasika phassa (contact), without which the tasting-consciousness would not be able to experience the flavour. The Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purity) defines condition (paccaya) as: "When a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. A condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. Condition, cause, reason, source, originator and producer are synonyms." Metta, Rob M :-) 51289 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:50am Subject: Conditions Part 2 - Root Condition (hetu-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Root-condition is that condition that resembles the root of a tree. Just as a tree rests on its root, and remains alive only as long as its root is not destroyed, similarly all kusala and akusala cittas are dependent on the simultaneity and presence of their roots for their nourishment and foundation. The roots are powerful conditions for the cittas that are rooted in them. The roots are cetasikas which accompany kusala / akusala cittas: - Greed (lobha) - Attachment (dosa) - Delusion (moha) - Non-greed (alobha) - Non-Attachment (adosa) - Non-Delusion / Wisdom (amoha / panna) Amoha conditions the simultaneous arising of both alobha and adosa. In other words, one with wisdom must have generosity and metta. Similarly, lobha and dosa each condition the simultaneous arising of moha; greed and aversion will always be based on delusion. There are 18 rootless cittas (kamavacara): - Ten sense-door cittas (five kusala, five akusala) - Two receiving cittas (one kusala, one akusala) - Three investigating cittas (two kusala, one akusala) - Three functional (kiriya) cittas (sense door adverting, mind door adverting, smile producing in Arahant) The 20 cittas which generate kamma (those that arise during the javana stage of the citta-process), are all conditioned by roots. Kamma produce its effects later on (vipaka). One also accumulates good and bad tendencies that condition the arising of kusala and akusala cittas in the future. When kusala javana-cittas are accompanied by panna, right understanding is accumulated. Examples of vipaka cittas with roots include the rebirth linking (patisandhi), death (cuti) and bhavanga cittas. The roots of these cittas condition the plane of existence . Roots are the dhammas that condition the cittas and cetasikas that they accompany and also the rupa which is produced by the citta at that moment. Rupas that can be conditioned by citta (and therefore conditioned by roots) are: - The eight inseparable rupas; solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence - Space (that which separates the rupas) - Sound - Body intimation (i.e. anger causes the face to distort, anger can cause us to hit somebody) - Speech intimation (i.e. anger makes us say bad things or lie) - Buoyancy, plasticity, wieldiness (these rèpas make the body subtle so that it can move) In the case of root condition, the roots (conditioning factors) and the dhammas that they condition arise simultaneously. Metta, Rob M :-) 51290 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:56am Subject: Conditions Part 3 - Object Condition (arammana-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Each citta experiences an object and all cetasikas arising with the citta experience the same object. Therefore an object conditions the citta and its associated cetasikas. Each of the cittas in a citta- process experiences the same object ; for example, all of the cittas in the eye-door process experience the same visible object. Rupa does not experience an object. All conditioned namas and rupas, Nibbana (unconditioned nama) and concepts (unreal in the ultimate sense) can function as objects. Rupa can be experienced through the sense door and the mind door whereas the other types of objects can only be experienced through the mind- door. Several conditions work together for the experience of an object. When there is seeing, it is kamma that produces the vipaka citta, seeing consciousness. Kamma also produces eyesense, the physical basis of sight. The cetasika phassa is an essential condition for a citta to experience an object. For example, colour (rupa) can only be an object when phassa contacts it. Rupas which can be sensed can become objects by virtue of deliberate inclination or by virtue of intrusion. When the conditioning factor is a citta object, the conditioned dhamma (also a citta) does not have to be of the same type: - Kusala -> Kuasala: Remembering a good deed - Kusala -> Akusala: Regretting a good deed - Akusala -> Akusala: Enjoying sensual pleasures - Akusala -> Kusala: Noting a defilement as it arises - Kuasala -> Kiriya: An arahant remembering a past kusala deed - Akusala -> Kiriya: An arahant remembering a past akusala deed Concepts can also objects of cittas (kusala, akusala or kiriya). An invalid may pull themselves up using a rope and may stand with the support of a walking stick. Just as the rope and the walking stick give support to an invalid, so also the six sense objects give support to cittas and cetasikas to enable them to arise. For example, visible object is related to eye-consciousness with its associated cetasikas (and the other cittas / cetasikas in the citta-process) by object condition. Visible object can also be related to the cittas / cetasikas in the mind-door citta-process by the object condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 51291 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:01am Subject: Conditions Part 4 - Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, "Adhipati" means supreme, sovereign, lord, chief, king, etc. The King of a country, by using his authority over all his country-men, can contribute to the peace and prosperity of his country to a great extent. The King conditions his country by way of his predominance over all others; his leadership qualities. There are two types of predominance condition: - Co-nascent predominance (conditioning factor arises together with conditioned factors) - Object predominance (occurs when object is very highly regarded by cittas and accompanying cetasikas) Co-nascence predominance has one of four conditioning factors: - Chanda (cetasika, desire to do): When we create something (art, music, etc.), there is lobha-mula citta attached to the object being created, but lobha is not a predominant factor; the cetasika chanda acts as a predominant factor. Similarly, when we are generous and give something away, chanda (kusala in this case) can be predominant. - Viriya (cetasika, energy / effort): Viriya is a predominant factor during routine tasks such performing our daily chores. - Vimamsa (panna cetasika, investigation of Dhamma): When we listen to the Dhamma, consider it and are mindful of realities, vimamsa can condition the accompanying citta and cetasikas by way of predominance- condition. - Citta: Only applies to javana cittas with two or three roots. When we take initiative, one of these four factors plays a role of co- nascence predominance condition. Chanda, viriya and citta can condition both wholesome and unwholesome factors whereas vimamsa only conditions wholesome factors. Factors conditioned by co-nascent predominance conditions are cittas, cetasikas and associated rupas such as body intimation and speech intimation. Object-predominance-condition is different from object-condition. For example, when we like the colour of something, but we do not particularly want to possess it, that object conditions the lobha- mula-citta by way of object-condition. When we like it very much and want to possess it, that object conditions the lobha-mula-citta by way of object-predominance-condition. Only cittas which arise with pleasant feeling can be conditioned by object-predominance. This excludes dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas. Rupas with characteristics which can be directly experienced can be object-predominance-condition. Rupa which is a desirable object can be object-predominance-condition only for lobha-mula-citta. Rupa cannot condition kusala citta by way of object-predominance- condition, only by way of object-condition. For example, we want to give beautiful flowers to someone else. Then rupa, such as colour or odour, can condition kusala citta by way of object-condition, rupa is the object experienced by kusala citta. That rupa cannot be object-predominance-condition for kusala citta, one does not give preponderance to it, one is intent on giving it away. The kusala one has performed, such as generosity, may be object- predominance-condition for kusala citta, then there are conditions for more kusala cittas. Rupa in itself does not condition further development of kusala; that is conditioned by other factors. The development of kusala is conditioned by the kusala one accumulated in the past and also by the factors of chanda, viriya, citta and vimamsa, which are co-nascent predominance-conditions. Metta, Rob M :-) 51292 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:04am Subject: Conditions Part 5 - Proximity Condition and Contiguity Condition robmoult Hi All, Proximity and contiguity (anantara and samanantara-paccaya) mean without separation in time (immediacy) and space (closeness). When a King dies or renounces the throne, his eldest son becomes King without any interruption in the lineage of monarchy. Thus we can say that the King helps his eldest son to become King by proximity condition (case of death) or by contiguity condition (case of renunciation). Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has not fallen away, there can be only one citta at a time. The preceding citta is the condition for the arising of the subsequent citta (the conditioned dhamma). Because of proximity condition, the dying- consciousness is succeeded without any interval by the rebirth- consciousness. When there is unhappy birth, the rebirth-consciousness is akusala vipaka citta. Because of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition bhavanga-citta succeeds the rebirth- consciousness and this citta is also akusala vipaka citta. The cittas arising within the citta-process arise according to a particular order which is unchangeable; they succeed one another without any interval and this is conditioned by proximity-condition and contiguity-condition. For example, in the sense-door process, the javana-cittas cannot arise if the determining-consciousness has not arisen. Since each citta which falls away conditions the succeeding citta we can accumulate skills, knowledge and wisdom. It is because of proximity condition and contiguity-condition that we can remember past experiences, events which occurred many years ago. This reminds us that there is no self who can cause the arising of particular cittas. Proximity condition and contiguity condition do not pertain to rupa; rupas arise because of kamma, temperature, citta and nutriment. Metta, Rob M :-) 51293 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07am Subject: Conditions Part 6 - Co-nascence Condition (sahajata-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, When an oil lamp is lit, the flame appears and the light, colour and heat are produced simultaneously. Light, colour and heat produced by the flame are not present before the flame appears, nor after it dies out. Co-nascent means "simultaneous arising". Examples of co-nascent condition include: - Each of the four mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness) is a co-nascent condition for the other three mental groups - Each of the four physical elements (solid, liquid, heat, motion) is a co-nascent condition for the other three elements - Rupa usually arises before citta, however at the moment of conception, the physical base of mind (rupa) serves as a condition for the patisandhi-citta and the other three mental groups (feeling, perception and mental formations) by way of co-nascence. - The patisandhi-citta is co-nascence-condition for the three groups of rupas produced by kamma at rebirth (heart base, body base and sex base), but only the heart-base among these rupas is co-nascence- condition for the patisandhi-citta, as the patisandhi-citta could not arise without the heart-base. - Citta and its accompanying cetasikas condition the rupa produced by them by way of co-nascence-condition. - The four Great Elements condition the derived rupas by way of co- nascence, but the derived rupas do not reciprocally condition the four Great Elements by way of co-nascence. Metta, Rob M :-) 51294 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:09am Subject: Conditions Part 7 - Mutuality Condition (annamanna-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Some phenomena which are related by co-nascence-condition are also related by mutuality-condition. They condition one another reciprocally while they arise simultaneously. For example, when three sticks are propped up together to form a pyramid, they balance one another; if one stick is removed, they others will fall. The first three examples of co- nascent conditions above are also examples of mutuality condition. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I will continue tomorrow! 51295 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > Could you provide a brief definition for each of these 24 conditions > > (with as little Pali as possible ;-)? There are some I don't > > understand. Good luck with this thread. I will be reading. ;-) > > I think I'm going to start with the first one (hetu condition) and > work with them in the order in that list, providing some brief > passages about them from B. Bodhi, Ledi Sayadaw (sp?) and Nina's book. > So it'll take a few weeks, at least. You can google up some definitions > in the meantime, I'm sure. Or just wait on the edge of your seat, > burning with unwholesome desire and/or wholesome chanda for the next > installment. > > Phil > I found a site that has a somewhat brief explanation for each of the paccaya: http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL02.html#Hetu The definitions are not as brief as I would like, but they are okay. I will be following along with your posts also and cross referencing. The thing I like about this site I link to is the following opening statement: "The reason for putting this book into electronic media is that the book is out of print and the text has been found very a valuable source of inspiration to those practising Vipassana meditation, despite using English language which is somewhat archaic." See, the Abhidhamma is not just for non-meditators. ;-)) Metta, James 51296 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > The first six volumes of the Abhidhamma Pitaka focus on classifying > paramattha dhammas. > Metta, > Rob M :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thank you very much for your new series. This is what I have been longing for. I met a monk. He told my father whether my father wanted to keep tapes that recorded patthaana dhamma or 'conditions'. He offered to my father that he would speak into the recorder and would give the tape after that. The great offer. Thanks for your series. With much respect, Htoo Naing 51297 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 robmoult Hi Htoo, It is a summary of Nina's book "24 conditions". It is available on- line. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > The first six volumes of the Abhidhamma Pitaka focus on classifying > > paramattha dhammas. > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Rob M, > > Thank you very much for your new series. This is what I have been > longing for. > > I met a monk. He told my father whether my father wanted to keep tapes > that recorded patthaana dhamma or 'conditions'. He offered to my > father that he would speak into the recorder and would give the tape > after that. The great offer. > > Thanks for your series. > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing > 51298 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas bardosein James, Phil & all, This is the electronic version of Ledi Sayadaw's book _The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations_ that we had been discussing earlier, concerning his view of _pannatti_. Ledi Sayadaw was a great erudite scholar of a very high order. Even so, his scholarship was balanced by extensive periods of intensive ("formal") meditation. According to a short biography: ... His numerous writings show not only his vast store of learning, of which he had a ready command, but also a deep penetration of the respective subjects derived from his meditative experience. During a long period of his later life he used to spend six months of the year teaching, preaching and writing, and the other six months meditating. [Ledi Sayadaw, _ The Manual of Insight_, The Wheel Publication, No. 31/32] p. 79. Anyone new to Abhidhamma would also find his _Manual of Insight_ a very helpful primer. Hal > The definitions are not as brief as I would like, but they are > okay. I will be following along with your posts also and cross > referencing. The thing I like about this site I link to is the > following opening statement: > > "The reason for putting this book into electronic media is that the > book is out of print and the text has been found very a valuable > source of inspiration to those practising Vipassana meditation, > despite using English language which is somewhat archaic." > > See, the Abhidhamma is not just for non-meditators. ;-)) > > Metta, > James > 51299 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 571 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The truth of suffering (dukkha saccaa) There are 11 groups of dhamma and they all are dukkha saccaa or the truth of suffering. In summary that truth is '5 clinging aggregates'. Along with this summary there are 12 groups of dhamma that are suffering or dukkha saccaa. 1. jaati (birth/rebirth) 2. jaraa (ageing) 3. marana (death) 4. soka (sorrow) 5. parideva (lamentation) 6. dukkha (pain or physical suffering) 7. domanassa ( mental pain or all mental suffering) 8. upayaasaa (despair) 9. appi ye hi sampayogo (association with unwanted things) 10.pi ye hi vippayogo (dissociation with loved one or wanted things) 11.tam pi iccham na labhati (not gaining of what is wanted) 12.pancupadaana-kkhandhaa (5 clinging aggregates) If dukkha or suffering cannot be seen then Ariya's Sacca will not be seen. Dukkha is everywhere. Jati ( rebirth ), jara(getting old and decayed ), byadhi ( pain and diseases ), marana(ceasation of life or death or departure from living status ) are dukkha. These features are part of life. So life itself is dukkha. There are other things that are associated with life or may be associated with life. These are soka ( anxiety, sorrow, worry ), parideva (expression of sorrow or lamentation that is crying, weeping ), dukkha ( physical pains ), domanassa ( grief or great sorrow ) and upayasa ( despair or losing all hope and collapse ). In life there are other dukkha. Association with hateful ones makes the samsara traveller distressed and cause great pain in his mind. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching disagreeable things cause dukkha. When the traveller has to stay with hateful one he will have to see disagreeable senses related to his hateful companion. Or hear, smell, taste or touch also behave the same as sight. When these disagreeable senses arise they will be embedded deep in his mind which again will cause him in great pain. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 51300 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi James (and Rob M and Hal and all) J > See, the Abhidhamma is not just for non-meditators. ;-)) Nobody ever said it was, as far as I know. Glad you found the info, James. I came across an interesting point that gets at the value of using Pali to make discussion efficient. I suggested Googling Ledi Sayadaw (now I forget the spelling) and "conditions" but see what happens when you use "paccaya" instead. Much more efficient and effective. Using Pali is not to show off - it's to get to the point faster. We know how precious this human existence is. Rob M, thanks for all those posts! There will be a plethora of paccaya happening, because I will be proceeding gradually with my plan to work through the 24, and then back to the beginning, and then back to the beginning. It'll take months, at least. Hal, you also expressed interest in this topic. Please jump on in and post whatever you'd like, in any order. Phil 51301 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I buddhatrue Hi Ken and Rob, I am just amazed at this dialogue. Ken H., could you accept the possibility that you are deluded (moha) about your position? It seems to fly in the face of the evidence. This is what Rob M. wrote: "The Buddha defined Right Concentration as attaining the jhanas (see SN XLV.8)." This is definitely a fact. Look up the sutta and you will see the Buddha defining Right Concentration as the four jhanas. There is nothing ambiguous about what is in the sutta. And yet you reply to Rob M with: "The jhanas were practised to their full extent before the Dhamma became known. Therefore, it is impossible that the Buddha would have defined Right Concentration (pertaining to the NEP) as the jhanas." This is not a fact; this is conjecture. And, it can't be impossible for the Buddha to have defined Right concentration as the jhanas- because that is what he did. It isn't an impossibility, it is a fact. This exchange seems so strange and surreal to me. Like something from Alice in Wonderland: "The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it: `No room! No room!' they cried out when they saw Alice coming. `There's plenty of room!' said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table. `Have some wine,' the March Hare said in an encouraging tone. Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea. `I don't see any wine,' she remarked. `There isn't any,' said the March Hare. `Then it wasn't very civil of you to offer it,' said Alice angrily. `It wasn't very civil of you to sit down without being invited,' said the March Hare." With amused metta, James 51302 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James (and Rob M and Hal and all) > > > J > See, the Abhidhamma is not just for non-meditators. ;-)) > > > Nobody ever said it was, as far as I know. James: People say that all the time in this group! Where have you been? ;-)) The argument goes that the Abhidhamma demonstrates that ultimate reality is composed of just citta, cetaska, rupa, and Nibbana. Therefore, there are no people who can meditate. Anyone who tries to meditate doesn't understand the Abhidhamma, has wrong view, and reinforces a false belief in self. Sound familiar? If not, I will quote from Nina's book on Conditions, Chapter 15: "Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right understanding of what breath is: a rupa conditioned by citta. He may believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala citta with calm. Or someone may think that he should try to concentrate on rupas of the body and that he in that way can experience the arising and falling away of realities. The development of the eigthfold path is the development of right understanding of any reality which appears because of conditions. If someone selects particular realities as objects of awareness or if he tries to apply himself to certain techniques in order to hasten the development of insight he is on the wrong path." http://www.dhammastudy.com/Conditions15.html James: The word "may" appears four times in the foregoing paragraph. That's a lot of 'mays'- a lot of conjecture. > > > Glad you found the info, James. I came across an interesting point > that gets at the value of using Pali to make discussion efficient. I > suggested Googling Ledi Sayadaw (now I forget the spelling) > and "conditions" but see what happens when you use "paccaya" instead. > Much more efficient and effective. Using Pali is not to show off - it's > to get to the point faster. We know how precious this human existence > is. James: You have a good point. I haven't given up on the idea of learning Pali- or at least not having a mindset against it. Metta, James 51303 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi James > James: People say that all the time in this group! Where have you > been? ;-)) The argument goes that the Abhidhamma demonstrates that > ultimate reality is composed of just citta, cetaska, rupa, and > Nibbana. Therefore, there are no people who can meditate. Anyone > who tries to meditate doesn't understand the Abhidhamma, has wrong > view, and reinforces a false belief in self. Sound familiar? Abhidhamma is for everyone, both with wrong view and right view. If people are wrong about saying there shouldn't be meditation, or right about saying there shouldn't be meditation it doesn't mean Abhidhamma is not for them - that was my point in response to your "see, Abhidhamma is not just for non-meditators. > > If not, I will quote from Nina's book on Conditions, Chapter 15: > > "Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong > concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very > hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right > understanding of what breath is: a rupa conditioned by citta. He may > believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he > does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala > citta with calm. I certainly agree with this. A "meditator" needn't be defined as a person with wrong view who thinks with lobha that he can intentionally give rise to ksuala cittas such as sati, does it? Maybe it does - I don't know. A. Sujin said "vijja doesn't come from avijja" or words to that effect. Cittas rooted in ignorance don't condition the arising of cittas rooted in wisdom, I guess. On the other hand, you made a very clear and strong case the other day to a different approach to dealing with the inevitably akusala roots of the intentional satipatthana of beginners. Take the ignorance and greed for results as a given and (as Hal said) it can be the object for the satipatthana, the satipatthana can grow from there. I'm still open to it. Honestly,I don't think about it except when I come across the topic here. Satipatthana in daily life is so fascinating that the need for unnatural seclusion (for a modern worldling) in order to apply the Buddha's teaching as a worldling doesn't grab me. But who knows what will happen? Phil 51304 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - Thank you for replying. > Phil : > Actually, I didn't write that. I am posting "useful posts" from the > files. Not bothering to put the original poster's name because it seems irrelevant. (snipped) I don't know. I never think about nibbana, to tell the > truth. It seems beyond our ability to think about it to any useful > degree except to say something like "all the fuel is used up" which I > think is the literal meaning in Pali, isn't it? > Tep: Who wrote it ? Maybe I should ask her (or him?) directly. Regards, Tep ========= 51305 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (Attn. James, Swee, RobM, KenH) - I can't believe it; I am writing more emails to you these days than to my own daughter ! > Phil: >Wholese chanda will be there as well at times. Who knows? >There is no self that can control it, we all know that. Tep: When there is a thought of 'atta', it is a wrong view: because that thought is motivated by attachment (atta-vaadupaadaana). That's why the Buddha cautioned against such view <`This is mine, this I am , this is my self'>. "This is my project on the 24 conditions" ! The Buddha did not create the 'self demon' that is deep-rooted in Phil's mind. But you should not be scared of the self demon interfering with your project; nothing is not 'your self '! {Note that 'your self ' is not yourself :-)) } >Phil: > Oops! Debating again. See how uncontrollable it was? :) Tep: Yes, debate is unavoidable -- as long as the conditions for atta- vaadupaadaana have not been abandoned yet. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi Tep > > > Tep : That is a good project, Phil. I hope it become successful. > > By the way, its success is controllable to a certain extent. > > > Interesting. Well, the motivations were many and subtler than I > can know but the ones that stand out seems to be Swee Boon pointing > out that I use "conditions" so loosely but don't really know what > they are and also the way Larry stays on his project in such a > diligent way. (It happened before I came to DSG, but I think he > posted passages from Abhidhamma in Daily Life for more than a year, the way Sarah is with Cetasikas, and Htoo is with his Dhamma > threads. We can see lots of examples of diligent Dhamma studying > here. Oh, I forgot your posts on the breathing treatise! You are > very diligent too. > > Will I continue? Is it controllable? (snipped) 51306 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] What Buddha and what tree jwromeijn Hallo Ng Boon Huat To say it simple and straight: I think your idea of Pali is totally incorrect. As far as I know, Pali is constructed, mainly from Sanskriet after the death of the Buddha. That beings from the other 30 realms speak Pali: there is no proof at all for that. Nowhere in the Tipitaka is stated this. I don't know who was the first Theravadin who got that idea, I'm afraid it was Buddhaghosa. Perhaps more important: we (Theravadins) don't need such an idea. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: ... > To answer your second question, why pali ?? During our > Gotama Buddha times, Pali is a dying langauge. There > are many more dielet but the Buddha still insist to > use Pali. The explaination is that Pali langauge is a > universal langauge which understandable by all the 31 > planes of existances and all 10000 world systems. I > think basically it means Pali is a universal langauge > which other beings can understand. We can use other > langauge such as english or etc, but it will only be > those who learned english and perhaps some earth bound > deva who previous life knew english would be able to > understand. That's why Pali is still used today as our > chanting can be understood by all 31 planes of > existances. Who knows, perhaps a deva could be flying > over your home and heard your chantings and would > always come to listen thus will also protect you from > harm and dangers. Any way, chanting is kusala kamma > which results in good results... > > I guess I have taken too much of your time having this > long mail. > > Hope you enjoy it. > > Metta > mr39515 51307 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Oops! I found an error in the earlier post. Please correct it for me. Thanks. Before Correction: But you should not be scared of the self demon interfering with your project; nothing is not 'your self '! {Note that 'your self ' is not yourself :-)) } Please delete one word; the 'not' before 'your self'. After Correction: But you should not be scared of the self demon interfering with your project; nothing is 'your self '! {Note that 'your self ' is not yourself :-)) } Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Phil (Attn. James, Swee, RobM, KenH) - > > I can't believe it; I am writing more emails to you these days than to my > own daughter ! > > > Phil: > >Wholese chanda will be there as well at times. Who knows? > >There is no self that can control it, we all know that. > > Tep: > > When there is a thought of 'atta', it is a wrong view: because that > thought is motivated by attachment (atta-vaadupaadaana). That's why the Buddha cautioned against such view <`This is mine, this I am , this is my self'>. "This is my project on the 24 conditions" ! The Buddha did not create the 'self demon' that is deep-rooted in Phil's mind. > > But you should not be scared of the self demon interfering with your > project; nothing is not 'your self '! > {Note that 'your self ' is not yourself :-)) } > (snipped) 51308 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Rob M - When I first read your post (Conditions Part 1), I thought that I would congratulate you on the smooth writing style and clear expressions. Now the whole feeling is gone once I know that you took it from Nina's article. By the way, who should be given the credit for discovering the 24 conditions? Regards, Tep ========== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > It is a summary of Nina's book "24 conditions". It is available on- > line. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 51309 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage eCard buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Your pilgrimage is very interesting and the places in your list have been in my dream for a long time. Perhaps, one day I, too, may be visiting these sites of historical importance and spiritual uplifting. I have a thought. It might be a good idea to upload the pictures of these sites to DSG Pictures Files for all members to see. I hope you and everyone in your group stay clear from any troubles (that might harm your robotic well-beings) while you are traveling, and come back home safely. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Dear All > > A quick note (or rather, a short note, as there's nothing quick about the > internet service in Bodh Gaya) to say that your 2 loose robots are now in the third day of the trip, visiting the site of the Buddha's enlightenment and other places nearby and not so nearby (including Nalanda, which features highly in the life of Ven Sariputta, and Rajgir/Vultures Peak and Veluvanna/the Bambboo Grove which were the settingsfor many of the suttas. > > We are also enjoying follwowing the exchanges on the list. > > This evening we have a puja at the stupa, then tomorrow set off on the > long trip to Benares (12-14 hours in the bus). > > Jon (and Sarah) > 51310 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 robmoult Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > When I first read your post (Conditions Part 1), I thought that I would > congratulate you on the smooth writing style and clear expressions. > Now the whole feeling is gone once I know that you took it from Nina's > article. ===== I am sorry for not making the source clear from the outset. Nina is a such wonderful writer. When I read her material I am filled with sympathetic joy (mudita). ===== > > By the way, who should be given the credit for discovering the 24 > conditions? > ===== The traditional Theravada view (compiled by Buddhaghosa) is that in the fourth week after enlightenment, the Buddha contemplated on the Abhidhamma. When the Buddha contemplated on the seventh book of the Abhidhamma (Patthana - Conditional Relations), He emitted rays of six colours because He had finally found a subject worthy of His great intellect. My personal view is less colourful and equally easy to discredit. My personal view is that during the time of the Buddha there were groups of intellectual monks (such as Sariputta) who started to try and name / list the various condtions (conditionality is a key part of the Buddha's teaching, but the Buddha never gave a comprehensive list of conditons... at least not that I have found). My personal opinion is that these lists got codified shortly after the Buddha's death into the Abhidhamma. My belief is that it would have happened around the time of the split of the Mahasangika, about 100 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha - perhaps the split of the Mahasangika was the catalyst. I believe that much of the material in the Abhidhamma dates back to the time of the Buddha - such as the Matikas, which give the main structure to the Abhidhamma. Last week, I found a 350 page text on the Savastravada Abhidharma. I am looking forward to doing a comparison to look for common themes; these themes would likely have predated both the Abhidhamma and Abhidharma and originate from the time of the Buddha. Metta, Rob M :-) 51311 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Rob M - When I first read your post (Conditions Part 1), I thought that I would congratulate you on the smooth writing style and clear expressions. Now the whole feeling is gone once I know that you took it from Nina's article. By the way, who should be given the credit for discovering the 24 conditions? Regards, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Tep, and all, I do congratulate Rob M in his posting on 'conditions'. It is a rare chance to learn 24 conditions in the clearest way. I do not count who did what. What matter most is that we need to understand Dhamma in all possible way. The Buddha is copy-right for all Dhamma that He left with us as Tipitaka. So we do not need to find anyone for credit. I have read somewhere on-line about 24 conditions written by Sujin or Nina or someone else I am not sure. I just took English equivalent of those conditions. Actually 'Patthaana Dhamma' is VERY WIDE and 24 conditions are just a summary. There are 24 different texts of Patthaana Dhamma. These 24 texts are not 24 conditions. Thanks again Rob M for your posting on 'conditions' and I also thank to Nina for her best work in writing on 24 conditions. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 51312 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 10/10/05 2:20:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > The jhanas were practised to their full extent before the Dhamma > became known. Therefore, it is impossible that the Buddha would have > defined Right Concentration (pertaining to the NEP) as the jhanas. If > a sutta seems to give that impression, then it needs further > explanation. ========================== Omigod!! There is the following: __________________ The definition "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."— SN XLV.8 _________________ With metta, Howard 51313 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi Tep > Tep: Who wrote it ? Maybe I should ask her (or him?) directly. It was someone named Shin. The first one I posted was Sarah. What does it matter? Again, the point I made earlier. It is not Shin's understanding, Sarah's understanding, Tep's understanding. If it is, it is not right understanding. Phil 51314 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:08am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Dear Rob M - Thank you very much for sharing with me your thoughts about the origin of the 24 conditions (and the material in the Abhidhamma). >RM : My personal view is that during the time of the Buddha there were > groups of intellectual monks (such as Sariputta) who started to try and >name / list the various condtions (conditionality is a key part of the >Buddha's teaching, but the Buddha never gave a comprehensive >list of conditons... at least not that I have found). Tep: So it seems reasonable to argue that those conditions beyond the 'dependent origination' and some subsets of the Abhidhamma material not expounded by the Buddha, were not considered by our Greatest Sage, the Buddha, as necessary for Enlightenment. What is your thought on this? >RM: >Last week, I found a 350 page text on the Savastravada Abhidharma. >I am looking forward to doing a comparison to look for common >themes; these themes would likely have predated both the >Abhidhamma and Abhidharma and originate from the time of the >Buddha. Tep: That is exciting, Rob. I am looking forward to reading your findings. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > (snipped) > > Tep: > > By the way, who should be given the credit for discovering the 24 > > conditions? > > > ===== > > The traditional Theravada view (compiled by Buddhaghosa) is that in the fourth week after enlightenment, the Buddha contemplated on the Abhidhamma. When the Buddha contemplated on the seventh book of the Abhidhamma (Patthana - Conditional Relations), He emitted rays of six colours because He had finally found a subject worthy of His great intellect. > > My personal view is less colourful and equally easy to discredit. My > personal view is that during the time of the Buddha there were groups > of intellectual monks (such as Sariputta) who started to try and > name / list the various condtions (conditionality is a key part of > the Buddha's teaching, but the Buddha never gave a comprehensive list of conditons... at least not that I have found). My personal opinion > is that these lists got codified shortly after the Buddha's death > into the Abhidhamma. My belief is that it would have happened around the time of the split of the Mahasangika, about 100 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha - perhaps the split of the Mahasangika was the catalyst. I believe that much of the material in the Abhidhamma dates back to the time of the Buddha - such as the Matikas, which give the main structure to the Abhidhamma. > 51315 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:14am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing Dear Rob M, Thank you very much for this series. Here are some of my comments or adding. As you already told to Tep that these works are (English writing) are of Nina this may sound that I am giving comments or addition to Nina's. Thanks Nina for her extreme clarity in presentation. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi All, The first six volumes of the Abhidhamma Pitaka focus on classifying paramattha dhammas. This analysis supports the concept of anatta (non-self). Once something is broken into its constituent parts, it can be seen that there is no "self". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I sensed this paragraph fully. But those who do not believe abhidhamma will not be happy to read these. That is there are 7 books of abhidhamma. They (abhidhamma-non-believers) would deny that there are 7 books. Example Kathavatthu is not the original as they would say. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The final volume of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Patthana (Conditional Relations), explains the ways in which one thing can be a condition for another thing to arise. This shows how one thing can be related to another. These methods of synthesis must be understood to appreciate paticcasamuppada (dependent origination). Before studying conditional relations, it is important to understand concepts and realities (paramattha dhammas). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are people who do not love 'paramattha dhamma'. They would not like whenever they hear paramattha dhamma. But if they really see Dhamma they will ........ --------------------------------------------------------------------- For example, hearing is conditioned by sound falling upon the ear- sense. Both sound and ear-sense are rèpas which also arise because of their own conditions and therefore must fall away. Therefore, the reality that they condition (hearing) cannot last either. In spite of our study of nama and rupa, we may still find the awareness (sati) arises very seldom. One of the causes of lack of sati may be the fact that we did not yet study in detail the namas and rupas with their various conditions. Realities do not arise by their own power; they are dependent on other phenomenon which makes them arise. There is not any reality which arises from a single cause; there is concurrence of several conditions through which realities arise. For example, when tasting food, tasting-consciousness is a vipaka citta (result) produced by kamma. This tasting-consciousness is also dependent on the rupa tasting-sense, which also arises because of kamma. Tasting- consciousness also depends on the cetasika phassa (contact), without which the tasting-consciousness would not be able to experience the flavour. The Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purity) defines condition (paccaya) as: "When a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. A condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. Condition, cause, reason, source, originator and producer are synonyms." Metta, Rob M :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The more complex and the more complicated the more they (abhidhamma n0on-believers) will deny abhidhamma as genuine Dhamma. Thanks Nina for her clear presentation. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 51316 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (Attn. Htoo, Sarah)- I am giving my last words. > > > Tep: Who wrote it ? Maybe I should ask her (or him?) directly. > > It was someone named Shin. The first one I posted was Sarah. >What does it matter? Again, the point I made earlier. It is not Shin's > understanding, Sarah's understanding, Tep's understanding. If it is, it > is not right understanding. > > Phil > Tep: It does matter because we can be misled very badly if we are not careful about who writes what. { :>|) BTW. How do you know that Shin's understanding, or Sarah's understanding, or Tep's understanding is NOT right understanding? You are assuming too much again. :-)) Tep ========= 51317 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: The Doctrine of 'Conditions'. Just Let It Be ! philofillet Hi Tep > I can't believe it; I am writing more emails to you these days than to my > own daughter ! Whatever you do, don't vow *not* to post, or you'll end up posting more! I know from experience. If you want to post less, you should vow to send 100 messages a day and then you'll find that you're not posting at all. :) There are conditions for keen interest in Dhamma so don't worry about it! Strike while the iron is hot. In Japanese, the equivalent proverb is "zen wa isoge", which means "goodness hurries up." (different zen from the one we think of.) Phil 51318 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 robmoult Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Rob M - > > Thank you very much for sharing with me your thoughts about the origin > of the 24 conditions (and the material in the Abhidhamma). > > >RM : My personal view is that during the time of the Buddha there were > > groups of intellectual monks (such as Sariputta) who started to try and > >name / list the various condtions (conditionality is a key part of the > >Buddha's teaching, but the Buddha never gave a comprehensive > >list of conditons... at least not that I have found). > > Tep: So it seems reasonable to argue that those conditions beyond > the 'dependent origination' and some subsets of the Abhidhamma > material not expounded by the Buddha, were not considered by our > Greatest Sage, the Buddha, as necessary for Enlightenment. What is > your thought on this? > ===== I'm not sure that I would consider dependent origination as "conditons"; I see them as factors which are connected through conditions. What is necessary for enlightenment? MN77 lists the bodhipakkhiya- dhamma, the 37 "things pertaining to enlightenment", or "requisites of enlightenment"; they comprise the entire doctrines of the Buddha. They are: - the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana) - the 4 right efforts (padhana) - the 4 roads to power (iddhi-pada) - the 5 spiritual faculties (indriya) - the 5 spiritual powers (bala) - the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga) - the Noble 8-fold Path I would like to expand upon bojjhanga (7 factors of enlightenment (See SN XLVI.5) as - mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga) - investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga) - energy (viriya-sambojjhanga) - rapture (píti-sambojjhanga) - tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) - concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga) - equanimity (upekkha) One could argue that studying the Abhidhamma falls under dhamma- vicaya-sambojjhanga. Nyanatiloka explains, "Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'." Tep, I am not sure that I answered your question. Certainly there were those who gained enlightenment without any study of Abhidhamma. However, that does not mean that studying the Abhidhamma cannot be of great value for those suitably disposed. Here is what Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda (Chief Reverend at the temple that I attend) has to say about this, "The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." Metta, Rob M :-) 51319 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Rob M (Phil and other Abhidhammikas) - Please let me apologize for my seemingly negative tone in the statement I made in the last post ! > > Tep: So it seems reasonable to argue that those conditions beyond > the 'dependent origination' and some subsets of the Abhidhamma > material not expounded by the Buddha, were not considered by our > Greatest Sage, the Buddha, as necessary for Enlightenment. What is > your thought on this? > Tep : I did not foresee the tone that sounded negative to you, until after reading your answer. Rob M : Tep, I am not sure that I answered your question. Certainly there were those who gained enlightenment without any study of Abhidhamma. However, that does not mean that studying the Abhidhamma cannot be of great value for those suitably disposed. Tep: Ah, I did not question the worth of the whole Abhidhamma -- I only question the part of the Abhidhamma that was added later after the Buddha's parinibbana. Questioning its usefulness does not mean rejecting it as 100% useless ! Again, like I told Phil earlier, the dhamma is not to be claimed : 'this dhamma is mine, I am identified with it, it is my self'. "In fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." [Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda ] Tep: Thank you for the above passage. I agree somewhat with it. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > What is necessary for enlightenment? MN77 lists the bodhipakkhiya- > dhamma, the 37 "things pertaining to enlightenment", or "requisites > of enlightenment"; they comprise the entire doctrines of the Buddha. > > They are: > - the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana) > - the 4 right efforts (padhana) > - the 4 roads to power (iddhi-pada) > - the 5 spiritual faculties (indriya) > - the 5 spiritual powers (bala) > - the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga) > - the Noble 8-fold Path > > I would like to expand upon bojjhanga (7 factors of enlightenment > (See SN XLVI.5) as > - mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga) > - investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga) > - energy (viriya-sambojjhanga) > - rapture (píti-sambojjhanga) > - tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) > - concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga) > - equanimity (upekkha) > > One could argue that studying the Abhidhamma falls under dhamma- > vicaya-sambojjhanga. Nyanatiloka explains, "Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and > mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'." > (snipped) 51320 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi RobM, James, Howard and all, RobM wrote: --------- > To start, I would like to take one of the key points out of our discussion which I feel is critical; do the Suttas define Right Concentration as Jhanas? I gave this as a "fact" and you have disputed it. I gave a Sutta (SN XLV.8) which (in my opinion) clearly equates the two. --------- And James wrote: ---------------- > This exchange seems so strange and surreal to me. Like something from Alice in Wonderland: ---------------- And Howard wrote: ------------------------------ Omigod!! There is the following: <. . .> This is called right concentration."â€" SN XLV.8 ------------------------------- I see what you mean, but, once again, it is not entirely my fault. :-) Every sutta needs to be understood in the light of every other sutta - and in the light of the Abhidhamma - and the Vinaya - and (I would add) in the light of the ancient commentaries. So it is unavoidable and essential that Dhamma discussions get complicated and unwieldy. Remember, we are talking about absolute reality (nama and rupa) as discovered by the Buddha and as taught by him despite the unimaginable difficulty of doing so. The last thing we should do is to accept any one part of the teaching at face value (i.e., in isolation from the rest of the Canon) - regardless of how tempting it is to say, "This part is easy!" Rob M began by saying that right concentration is the jhanas and he quoted Magga-vibhanga sutta which, on the face of it, says right concentration is, "i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With" But aren't we are talking about a fleeting mental phenomenon - a cetasika? How can a cetasika be these various activities performed by a monk withdrawn from sensuality and so on? Other suttas have told us there are only the namas and rupas of the six worlds, and others have told us that the six worlds change so quickly it is difficult for a Buddha to give a simile for how quickly. And yet this sutta is telling us there is a living, breathing monk who is going in and out of various states concentration. It is also describing another cetasika (right effort) as if there is a monk who remains focused on the body, and remains focused on feelings etc., etc. How can it be so simple? How can conventional everyday activities be a cetasika? It gets worse when we remember all these Right cetasikas are occurring simultaneously! Alice In Wonderland has nothing on this! The answer is to understand every detail of the Dhamma in the light of every other detail. If we are ever tempted to think, "This part of the Dhamma is uncomplicated," we should remember what the Buddha told Ananda, (paraphrasing), "Do not say that, Ananda! Do not say this part of the Dhamma is uncomplicated." Ken H PS: Rob, I am a bit worried about a typo in my previous message - even though it should be obvious. I meant to say, "satipatthana does not need to be continual" not "satipatthana does need to be continual." 51321 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice matheesha333 Hi Tep, I hope someone doesnt call this wrong speech, but thank you. I've had a long day today and it was nice to see your post. metta Mathesha 51322 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Straddling between the Ultimate & Conventional Truths? buddhistmedi... Dear Ken H (and all)- Your message # 51320 is the most interesting of all that you have written. It shows me that you are not denying, as strongly as you used to do, the "other side" of the discussion you have had with RobM, James and Howard. I may be wrong, I am not sure. Whatever the case it is, please allow me to give a few comments. Perhaps, you may find them useful and I'll be glad. Otherwise, there is no feeling hurt -- just let it be. { :- |) Ken H : Remember, we are talking about absolute reality (nama and rupa) as discovered by the Buddha and as taught by him despite the unimaginable difficulty of doing so. The last thing we should do is to accept any one part of the teaching at face value (i.e., in isolation from the rest of the Canon) - regardless of how tempting it is to say, "This part is easy!" Tep: Then you should quit all dhamma discussion right now; study all parts of the Teaching (the three baskets) deeply down untill you see and know khandha, dhatu, and ayatana the way they really are. Then you may come back to the DSG forum (if it is still in existence by then). KenH: Other suttas have told us there are only the namas and rupas of the six worlds, and others have told us that the six worlds change so quickly it is difficult for a Buddha to give a simile for how quickly. And yet this sutta is telling us there is a living, breathing monk who is going in and out of various states concentration. Tep: You seem to be straddling between the actual reality (where there is a living, breathing monk doing his bhavana) and ultimate realities (where there is nothing but ruupa,citta, and cetasika). But you have to know, while you are practicing, when you should be on which side -- not both. Only when we know and see the phenomena the way they really are, we will then be able to rightly understand the ultimate realities (including, of course, Nibbana). I wonder what other DSG members may respond to your interesting questions. Yours truly, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi RobM, James, Howard and all, > > RobM wrote: > --------- > > To start, I would like to take one of the key points out of our > discussion which I feel is critical; do the Suttas define Right > Concentration as Jhanas? > > I gave this as a "fact" and you have disputed it. > > I gave a Sutta (SN XLV.8) which (in my opinion) clearly equates the > two. > --------- > > And James wrote: > ---------------- > > This exchange seems so strange and surreal to me. Like something > from Alice in Wonderland: > ---------------- > > And Howard wrote: > ------------------------------ > Omigod!! There is the following: > <. . .> > This is called right concentration."â€" SN XLV.8 > ------------------------------- > > I see what you mean, but, once again, it is not entirely my fault. > :-) Every sutta needs to be understood in the light of every other > sutta - and in the light of the Abhidhamma - and the Vinaya - and (I > would add) in the light of the ancient commentaries. So it is > unavoidable and essential that Dhamma discussions get complicated and unwieldy. (snipped) 51323 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi Tep and all Important points below, so I will add a few comments, hopefully very briefly. > Tep: It does matter because we can be misled very badly if we are > not careful about who writes what. { :>|) Remember the nature of mind. We are always misled by the unwholesome roots of moha, lobha and dosa. You know this, right? It is in so, so many suttas in Samyutta Nikaya and I'm sure other nikayas as well which I don't know as well. (I am concentrating on SN for the next few years, at least.) I will not begin to quote them because it will take all day. How do we gain protection from being misled by moha, lobha and dosa. There is not fast solution, no virus buster of the mind. It is only by the development of understanding that we are protected. And for understand to develop, it needs to be exercised. I thought of a simile, but I don't know if it's any good. Put fish food on the river, the fat fish rises slowly to the surface and gobbles it and sinks back down again. But when a fly flicks over the surface of the river, and the fish leaps to catch it, the fish grows stronger, and will have a better chance to develop, to swim upstream to do whatever it is that fish do upstream. Understanding is like that. If we read words without knowing who wrote them, maybe our understanding is given a better chance to develop. Otherwise, you are thinking "OK, Sarah wrote this so she will be saying this" and you read it and your understanding is the fat fish that doesn't leap to understand because you are reading with bias, with pre-judice, just seeking confirmation of what your mind wants to understand for its reassurance and comfort (yes, Sarah is saying what I knew she would, all is well, my Dhamma views are safe) instead of being open to new understanding, catching that bright fly that has never been caught before. Something like that. > BTW. How do you know that Shin's understanding, or Sarah's > understanding, or Tep's understanding is NOT right understanding? Of course I don't yet, neither do you. Neither will I nor you nor anyone else here until sotapanna and the elimination or wrong view from the picture. Understanding has to be given time and opportunity to develop. It won't happen any day soon, that's for sure. Patience. This morning I was copying down some favourite sutta passages. There is such a natural desire to read the words, reflect briefly on them, and think "yes, got it." That is the danger of reading too many suttas too often. Suttas are the ultimate source of the Buddha's wisdom, I do believe that (I study Abhidhamma because I think it helps us understand suttas better) but there is a real danger in thinking we have understood a sutta to any important degree just by reading it or can prove our understanding to any important degree just by quoting it. Phil 51324 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: UPs on paccayas 2 - list of the 24 paccayas philofillet Hi Tep and all An afterthought to what I wrote below: > Understanding is like that. If we read words without knowing who > wrote them, maybe our understanding is given a better chance to develop. > Otherwise, you are thinking "OK, Sarah wrote this so she will be > saying this" and you read it and your understanding is the fat fish > that doesn't leap to understand because you are reading with bias, with > pre-judice, just seeking confirmation of what your mind wants to > understand for its reassurance and comfort (yes, Sarah is saying what I > knew she would, all is well, my Dhamma views are safe) instead of being > open to new understanding, catching that bright fly that has never been > caught before. Something like that. The Useful Posts are in themselves a little bit in the fat fish category - they have been declared to be Useful by someone, therefore should be read with more attention. We should be careful about that. I turned to them because I want to gather book knowledge on the paccayas and don't have time to read all the posts. If anyone thinks there are useful posts on the paccayas that haven't been declated Useful Posts, needless to say please send them along. Phil p.s I do appreciate the UPs, Sarah and Jon, because they help us to save time when doing research on a topic. Thanks for the effort you have put into maintaining them. 51325 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Bickering Yahoo! Group? buddhistmedi... Dear Phil - You're right about the "nature of the mind". [Phil : We are always misled by the unwholesome roots of moha, lobha and dosa.] But that is a separate issue from careful selection of reading materials , i.e. "It does matter because we can be misled very badly if we are not careful about who writes what. { :>|) " ------------------------------------- > BTW. How do you know that Shin's understanding, or Sarah's > understanding, or Tep's understanding is NOT right understanding? >Phil: Of course I don't yet, neither do you. Neither will I nor you nor anyone else here until sotapanna and the elimination or wrong view from the picture. Tep: Then it is safer for us if you don't assume too much, while we still are infested with wrong views, because it may lead to bickering. :-) ------------------------------------ >Phil : Suttas are the ultimate source of the Buddha's wisdom, I do believe that (I study Abhidhamma because I think it helps us understand suttas better) but there is a real danger in thinking we have understood a sutta to any important degree just by reading it or can prove our understanding to any important degree just by quoting it. Tep: Again, you are assuming that Tep doesn't have the capability to understand any sutta at all. Well, why don't you just correct me whenever my sutta quotes and/or interpretations are wrong. That's all I sincerely ask you to do. But you have to make sure that your understanding is right before making such a judgement. So keep on studying the suttas, the Abhidhamma, K. Sujin's lectures, and reading tons of the material out there on the Internet -- you'd be badly confused, and more importantly, you won't have time to practice what the Buddha taught. ------------------------------- >Phil: How do we gain protection from being misled by moha, lobha and dosa. There is not fast solution, no virus buster of the mind. It is only by the development of understanding that we are protected. And for understand to develop, it needs to be exercised. I thought of a simile, but I don't know if it's any good. Put fish food on the river, the fat fish rises slowly to the surface and gobbles it and sinks back down again. But when a fly flicks over the surface of the river, and the fish leaps to catch it, the fish grows stronger, and will have a better chance to develop, to swim upstream to do whatever it is that fish do upstream. Tep: True, development of panna is absolutely critical. But do not forget that panna rests upon developed precepts and concentration. Stdudy the following wise words of the Buddha. 'He who is possed of constant virtue, Who has understanding, and is concentrated, Who is strenuous and diligent as well, Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' [SN I.53, quoted in Vism I, 6] The above quote is simple enough; you don't have to wait a thousand years to understand it through accumulation. Thank you much for your dhamma preaching. It is pretty impressive though, considering the fact that you have just begun your SN section of the sutta-pitaka. Let's stop here before we turn our beloved DSG into another bickering Yahoo! group. ^_* Regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep and all > > Important points below, so I will add a few comments, hopefully very > briefly. > (snipped.) > > Understanding is like that. If we read words without knowing who > wrote them, maybe our understanding is given a better chance to develop. > Otherwise, you are thinking "OK, Sarah wrote this so she will be > saying this" and you read it and your understanding is the fat fish > that doesn't leap to understand because you are reading with bias, with > pre-judice, just seeking confirmation of what your mind wants to > understand for its reassurance and comfort (yes, Sarah is saying what I > knew she would, all is well, my Dhamma views are safe) instead of being > open to new understanding, catching that bright fly that has never been > caught before. Something like that. > (snipped) > This morning I was copying down some favourite sutta passages. There > is such a natural desire to read the words, reflect briefly on them, > and think "yes, got it." That is the danger of reading too many suttas > too often. Suttas are the ultimate source of the Buddha's wisdom, I do > believe that (I study Abhidhamma because I think it helps us understand suttas better) but there is a real danger in thinking we have > understood a sutta to any important degree just by reading it or can > prove our understanding to any important degree just by quoting it. > > Phil > 51326 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:59pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Opinion: Jhana is far more than "one type of citta". It is an element > in the Noble Eightfold Path and is one of the key themes repeated > through the Suttas. It is a core part of the Buddha's teaching. Hi Rob M I think you must have been a Quantity Surveyor in a past life. (-: I just want to make a single point and repeat a caution I made previously. A quantitative analysis of the Dhamma could well end up to be very misleading. You imply in the above statement that Jhana is a core teaching because there are lots of references to it in the suttas. That doesn't necessarily follow. Indeed, anatta, for example, isn't referred to very much at all in the suttas, by comparison. Does that mean it must be a lesser or peripheral teaching? Of course not! To take a quantitative view dismissing or downplaying the importance of anatta would be a tragic mistake. It may well be a mistake to talk up the importance of something frequently referred to, when there are other, perhaps contextual, reasons for that frequency of reference e.g. the Buddha was born into a culture where Jhana practices were the yardstick (they have found artwork showing cross-legged meditators under trees in the very ancient Indus Valley civilisation - well before Gotama's time). I previously gave a silly example by saying that being quantitative about the core teachings of Dhamma is like trying to determine if "loneliness" was a key theme of literature by counting up how many times the word "lonely" appears in novels. It's a seriously limited methodology and I caution against it. Don't get me wrong. I know you will reply with a string of other reasons why you take Jhana to be a core teaching. I also suspect you reject any standard view that liberation can be attained by dry insight, because no sutta reference can be found to support it. That's another area where I have serious reservations about your basic premises - treating the suttas like strict Christians treat the Bible makes me nervous. Maybe - just maybe - some of the commentaries that have come down to us were sincere and good attempts at preserving the true Dhamma by filling in gaps in the suttas or ironing out possible misconceptions. In which case, Rob, your methodology (as studious as it appears to us academic westerners) shuts you out of the real game. I don't have any answers, Rob. But I'm not prepared to tie my search down to premises I feel are suspect. If impersonal conditions rule, should I listen to all this suggestive talk about something that rules conditions? When the suggestion is queried, they all deny they made it. It's like a cockroach - shine a light on it and it disappears. Turn the light out and it sneaks back again. (-: I hope we can all keep our senses of humour and have a good LOL! I don't expect everyone (anyone!) to agree with my opinion, but hopefully there's some benefit in sharing it. Best wishes Andrew T 51327 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:31am Subject: conditional leoaive Hi It is interesting talk about conditional and paccayas. I would think it is interesting to put that together with states of arising and looking for path. It says in Abidhamma: States are good, bad, neutral. Suppose that I grasp to particular substance, then I wach my mind for arising of states and I can find what is coming: good, bad or neutral. I guess easy states would be good, uneasy would be bad, some other neutral. Descriminative mind, as I understand is not the path. But gresp and balance is ok. How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice? With metta Leo 51328 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: Kamma leading to Beauty or Ugliness ?!? leoaive Hi It is very interesting to read your postings. And it is good to reflect back to my life. I would really appreciate if you would continue those conditions for ascetics, how some conditions, practiced by ascetics bring new birth. Persanally, I beleive I was ascetic and pracriced something wrong, that bring me a birth I have in these life. Also, I do not want to confuse you, but I was practising satipattana for a long time and reading different suttas. I came to a conclusion, that satipattana should be practiced very carefull. Because if i reflect: I am walking, I am sitting, I am eating and so on. In that moment, I understand myself as body. In other suttas it says:"those who think body is "me" have perverted view. So I would think it should be practices in a way: I move by body or body in sitting position. I really like Abbhidhamma because of that. It gives me that separation from thinking that body is me. I see big releif and easy states. I am glad to read your messages. With metta Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > > Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Beauty? > > A student once asked the Buddha: > Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings > are beautiful, while others are ugly ? ... 51329 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:38pm Subject: rough index to UPs on paccayas philofillet Hi all This is unlikely to be of use to anyone other than me, but since I did this to get organized for my paccayas project I might as well post it. Of course we don't actually isolate one condition so easily - it's a web. We can see the value of using Pali instead of English to get to the point faster - the strong dependence condition doesn't appear on the list in 640 but I guess it's decisive support. Rather than posting the UPs on their own, I might pull bits of them to post along with passages from Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ledi Sayadaw and Nina as I get to my consideration of each paccaya. I am sure you are all eagerly awaiting the beginning of this great project. It will probably wait until the Yankees are eliminated from the baseball playoffs, though. Dhamma must wait for baseball. Phil 640 list of the 24 pacayas 1258 mutuality, conascence, repetition 2066 proximity, contiguity 5265 conditionality in general (?) ( inc. ?grequisite condition?h that is in MN 148) 7249 paccayas in general 7905 object, root 8278 conditionality in general (?) 8447 paccayas in general 8842 pre-nascence, post-nascence and others 9935 co-nascence, association and others 10946 paccayas in general 11364 conditionality in general 11702 strong dependence, proximity strong dependence, proximity 11734 natural strong dependence and other strong dependence 11740 paccayas in general and conditionality in general 12564 kamma condition, conditionality in general 12679 conditionality in general (sankhara and sankhata dhammas) 13241 conditionality in general, sheaves of reeds (ie mutuality, co- nascence) 15253 path condition, jhana condition 19583 paccayas in general 20623 paccayas, conditionality in general 23376 conditionality in general 24575 paccayas in general 31257 conditionality in general 32118 conditionality in general 39621 root, object, proximity, contiguity 46841 paccayas and paticca-samupaddha. 51330 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:32pm Subject: Re: Bickering Yahoo! Group? philofillet Hi Tep, and all > Tep: > Again, you are assuming that Tep doesn't have the capability to > understand any sutta at all. Well, why don't you just correct me > whenever my sutta quotes and/or interpretations are wrong. That's all I > sincerely ask you to do. But you have to make sure that your > understanding is right before making such a judgement. We all have the capability to understand suttas. We also have the accumulated tendency (lobha) to want too much too soon - this is especially strongly conditioned in the west, in my opinion. So, yes, I assume that we are all hungry to dig understanding out of suttas. I do assume that. Sorry, but that is a basic understanding I have, based on looking at my own mind - the only mind I can really know. I could assume that I am greedier than others (a form of mana) or assume that I am just as greedy as others (also mana, as any kind of comparing ourselves to others is) Or I could just say "we" and leave it there. I don't know. Please don't worry about it. Remember, anything anyone posts at DSG is really not important compared to understanding paramattha dhammas. You can call them the khandas, or dhatus or ayatanas or whatever schema the Buddha uses to teach them in the Suttanta if you don't like "paramattha dhammas." But the point is that it is what is happening through sense door and mind door processes that is important to understand, not what we read on the screen at DSG. This is just playing around that might be a helpful condition to understanding arising in a very indirect way. That's the way I see it now - at this moment. Might be different tomorrow. Please don't pay too much attention to what I write. I just think out loud and ramble so I'm sure there's wrong understanding most of the time. > > So keep on studying the suttas, the Abhidhamma, K. Sujin's lectures, > and reading tons of the material out there on the Internet -- you'd be > badly confused, and more importantly, you won't have time to practice > what the Buddha taught. There's always time. I go to work six days a week, teach 6 hours a day (very draining, but great for devloping Brahma-Viharas), commute in jam-packed trains, go walking, go running, go shopping, watch baseball games that drive me up the wall with suffering and joy, spend time with my wife - cook, eat, drink, taste, see, smell, touch- there's always time to practice what the Buddha taught. Unless practicing what the Buddha taught means sitting on a cushion in a room that - is - as - quiet - as - one - can - possibly - manage - to - make - it in order to watch the breath or intentionally watch for rising and falling of paramattha dhammas/khandas etc. If that is all the Buddha meant by "practice", then yes, I am missing the boat, and so be it. I'm not a monk and won't imitate one. . > > 'He who is possed of constant virtue, > Who has understanding, and is concentrated, > Who is strenuous and diligent as well, > Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' [SN I.53, quoted in Vism I, 6] > > The above quote is simple enough; you don't have to wait a thousand > years to understand it through accumulation. Who said it takes thousands of years to understand a sutta? I just said it can't be understood on the first reading as easily as we believe in this day of "access to insight." We should take our time, read it a few dozen or hundred times spaced out over a few years and let the understanding of it develop gradually, it seems to me. And is the above as easy as you think? Do you think virtue can be "constant", literally "constant?" Doesn't the meaning of "constant" have to be understood in the light of the Buddhas teaching that all dhammas are you-know-what? Do you understand that "concentration" is not wholesome in itself? You do know that there is such a thing as wrong concentration, don't you? Concentration is not a virtue if it is is done with wrong understanding. I guess that's a tired point, but it's true. Also strensuous - you are aware that being strenuous in a wholesome way is not just a matter of saying "I am going to be strenuous." Surely you see that it has to arise due to conditions. I mean, that is just common sense. It's like saying "I am going to love" - pointless unless there is love. Tep, it is time for another one of my "last words to you." I do enjoy discussing with you but the baseball playoffs and (more importantly, of course) a deadline for a writing contest loom, so I will be away for a bit. Phil p.s > Thank you much for your dhamma preaching. It is pretty impressive I agree, to tell the truth. I like my fat fish simile. I hope it makes it into the UPS!!! > though, considering the fact that you have just begun your SN section > of the sutta-pitaka. I think this makes it all the more impressive, wouldn't you say? ;) 51331 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:38pm Subject: Bodhgaya gazita2002 Hello dsg friends, I have much lobha for this place. the temple grounds which surround the Po tree are wonderful. however, it is all just visible object and a whole bunch of thinking about concepts. I am thinking that if one reads the suttas without right understanding then its almost a waste of time. this has been some very personal learning for me. will attempt to write more about this if i can put into words what i have learnt. special hello to phil from sukin. patience, courage and good cheer, azita 51332 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:00pm Subject: Re: Bodhgaya philofillet Hi Azita > I have much lobha for this place. the temple grounds which surround the > Po tree are wonderful. however, it is all just visible object and a whole > bunch of thinking about concepts. I have a lot of lobha for listening to you in the recorded Dhamma talks, Azita - that voice! (swoon.) Please do a lot of talking. Seriously, I like the questions you ask and the things you say - not just your lovely voice. > > I am thinking that if one reads the suttas without right understanding > then its almost a waste of time. this has been some very personal learning > for me. will attempt to write more about this if i can put into words what i > have learnt. Please do. Personally, I think reading a sutta with *any* degree of understanding is helpful in the long run, as long as we know we are not getting instant understanding from it and are aware that there can be a lot of lobha involved in our reading. I was just posting to Tep that I think it's a good idea to read suttas hundreds of times before we feel confident that we have understood them in a way that will arise later in a helpful way. Actually, we don't have to stop and think "I understand it" because the understanding will arise later, or won't arise. Nothing we can do about forcing understanding to arise, eh? > > special hello to phil from sukin. Say hi to Sukin and tell him that I have been hearing very helpful questions and comments from him in the talks. If you get a chance to express to A. Sujin how much I appreciate her talks, please do. And get an autographed photo, if possible. :) Also special hello to Nina and Lodewijk. I am getting a lot of encouragment from hearing Lodewijk read the perfections. Phil 51333 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:07pm Subject: Re: Bickering Yahoo! Group? philofillet Hi again, Tep, and all Another one of my afterthoughts. My mind is burning, for sure. Could someone post the very succinct sutta that says we are all Mara's prisoners until we have abandoned greed, hatred and ignorance? I think it is a very sobering sutta, because it basically says we are all Mara's prisoners, for as we know none of us here have abandoned greed, hatred and ignorance. Patiently developing understanding by appreciating moments of understanding when they arise is the only way to get out of Mara's trap, as far as I'm concerned. I think that trying to force our way out by will power without understanding will just make Mara's grasp stronger, but I'm not sure about that. Thanks in advance. Phil Phil > accumulated tendency (lobha) to want too much too soon - this is > especially strongly conditioned in the west, in my opinion. So, yes, > I assume that we are all hungry to dig understanding out of suttas. > I do assume that. Sorry, 51334 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:30pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, Thanks for this message. Before I comment, I would like to refer back to our previous conversation. I am not trying to have the last word on it; I just want to clear up a possible misunderstanding. I wrote: ------------ >KH: We don't remember the theory we learned in previous lives: even the > theory we learned yesterday is mostly forgotten. But panna is not > theory: it is a conditioned dhamma. ------------ And you replied: --------------------- M: hmm panna is unconditioned? Only nibbana is unconditioned is it not? Panna=nibbana? Even if it were unconditioned it shouldnt affect this issue of remembering? --------------------- Did you assume that I meant to type "unconditioned" where I typed, "conditioned." If so, is that because you equate "theory" with "conditioned" and "non-theory" with "unconditioned?" The threefold classification used in the Abhidhamma is: 1) pannatti (theory, illusion, concept) 2) conditioned dhammas - citta, cetasika and rupa 3) unconditioned dhamma - nibbana So my point was; because theory is not a reality it is subject to being forgotten. However, panna is a reality( aa conditioned dhamma). It is not a mere theory that we can forget. When panna has arisen (by conditions), it becomes a condition for more panna (and other dhammas) to arise. Moving on to your next message: ---------------- M: Whether you accidentally understood anatta through a moment of satipatthaana or whether it happened when you intentionally decided to cultivate the satipatthana; panna is panna. -------------- I agree. I understand that panna and other dhammas arise by conditions. When the conditions are in place for panna to arise, it will arise. When the conditions are not in place for panna to arise, no amount of trying or wishing will make it happen. --------------------------------- <. . .> M: > On the other hand it is like someone learning to swim trying to understand exactly what it is like to be in water, for decades, without actually getting into the pool. ---------------------------------- I understand you to be giving the following simile: Formal meditation is a condition for satipatthana, just as getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. If that was what the Buddha taught, then I would have to agree, but I don't believe it is what he taught. I believe the Buddha's equivalent simile would have been: Association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma are conditions for satipatthana, just as getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. ----------------- <. . .> M: > A little twist of dhamma logic seems to have closed off all avenues for practice for people so deeply committed to dhamma and it does disturb me. ------------------ It is very kind of you to be concerned for those of us who do not practise formal meditation. Let me assure you, however, that we have not closed off the avenues for practice actually found in the texts. Speaking for myself, the more I understand the original texts, the more certain I am of a way that does not involve formal practice. Ken H 51335 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Re: Bodhgaya bardosein Greetings Azita, Thanks for your reflections upon your visit to Bodh Gaya. I look forward to hearing more from you, as you follow in the Buddha's footsteps. ... Azita: ...I am thinking that if one reads the suttas without right understanding then its almost a waste of time.... ... Hal: Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? If right understanding was required in order to read the suttas with profit, there would be no profit in reading them. The suttas offer us an inner pilgrimage for the overcoming of wrong view, greed and delusion. Best regards, Hal 51336 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:54pm Subject: Re: Bodhgaya corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Azita: ...I am thinking that if one reads the suttas without right > understanding then its almost a waste of time.... > ... > > Hal: Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? If right > understanding was required in order to read the suttas with profit, > there would be no profit in reading them. The suttas offer us an inner > pilgrimage for the overcoming of wrong view, greed and delusion. Hi Hal and Azita An interesting point you make, Hal. Perhaps the answer lies in different degrees of Right Understanding. Maybe Azita meant that it is almost a waste of time to read a sutta with the thought "when I read this sutta, I will understand it perfectly and have Right View." If we then go on to announce to the world that we *have* Right View when we haven't experienced it at all, that is unprofitable. There is a sutta in which the Buddha says we need to be clear and upfront about whether we *know* something by experience or whether we are just expressing an opinion. I'll see if I can find the reference. Meanwhile, I look forward to Azita's fuller posting on the subject. Best wishes Andrew T 51338 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi RobM, James, Howard and all, > > RobM wrote: > --------- > > To start, I would like to take one of the key points out of our > discussion which I feel is critical; do the Suttas define Right > Concentration as Jhanas? > > I gave this as a "fact" and you have disputed it. > > I gave a Sutta (SN XLV.8) which (in my opinion) clearly equates the > two. > --------- > > And James wrote: > ---------------- > > This exchange seems so strange and surreal to me. Like something > from Alice in Wonderland: > ---------------- > > And Howard wrote: > ------------------------------ > Omigod!! There is the following: > <. . .> > This is called right concentration."â€" SN XLV.8 > ------------------------------- > > I see what you mean, but, once again, it is not entirely my fault. > :-) Every sutta needs to be understood in the light of every other > sutta - and in the light of the Abhidhamma - and the Vinaya - and (I > would add) in the light of the ancient commentaries. So it is > unavoidable and essential that Dhamma discussions get complicated and > unwieldy. > > Remember, we are talking about absolute reality (nama and rupa) as > discovered by the Buddha and as taught by him despite the > unimaginable difficulty of doing so. The last thing we should do is > to accept any one part of the teaching at face value (i.e., in > isolation from the rest of the Canon) - regardless of how tempting it > is to say, "This part is easy!" > > Rob M began by saying that right concentration is the jhanas and he > quoted Magga-vibhanga sutta which, on the face of it, says right > concentration is, "i) There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure > born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. > (ii) With" > > But aren't we are talking about a fleeting mental phenomenon - a > cetasika? How can a cetasika be these various activities performed by > a monk withdrawn from sensuality and so on? Other suttas have told us > there are only the namas and rupas of the six worlds, and others have > told us that the six worlds change so quickly it is difficult for a > Buddha to give a simile for how quickly. And yet this sutta is > telling us there is a living, breathing monk who is going in and out > of various states concentration. It is also describing another > cetasika (right effort) as if there is a monk who remains focused on > the body, and remains focused on feelings etc., etc. > > How can it be so simple? How can conventional everyday activities be > a cetasika? It gets worse when we remember all these Right cetasikas > are occurring simultaneously! Alice In Wonderland has nothing on this! > > The answer is to understand every detail of the Dhamma in the light > of every other detail. If we are ever tempted to think, "This part of > the Dhamma is uncomplicated," we should remember what the Buddha told > Ananda, (paraphrasing), "Do not say that, Ananda! Do not say this > part of the Dhamma is uncomplicated." > > Ken H > > PS: Rob, I am a bit worried about a typo in my previous message - > even though it should be obvious. I meant to say, "satipatthana does > not need to be continual" not "satipatthana does need to be > continual." > ===== I have read your reply but I am still not clear. I want to make sure that I understand your position on this before proceeding. Please clarify: Do you now accept that "Right Concentration" in the Noble Eightfold Path is the same as the jhanas and now you want to clarify some points (cetasikas, etc.) to square this with your broader understanding of the Dhamma? Or... Do you still deny that "Right Concentration" in the Noble Eightfold Path is the same as the jhanas? If this is your position, how do you interpret SN XLV.8 which appears to equate the two? I hope that your explanation would also cover AN IX.36 and AN IV.41 (all of these taken from ATI website). I don't want to be difficult, but I would also ask you to identify a Sutta which clearly supports your position. Metta, Rob M :-) 51339 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Opinion: Jhana is far more than "one type of citta". It is an element > > in the Noble Eightfold Path and is one of the key themes repeated > > through the Suttas. It is a core part of the Buddha's teaching. > > Hi Rob M > > I think you must have been a Quantity Surveyor in a past life. ===== :-) :-) ===== > (-: I > just want to make a single point and repeat a caution I made > previously. A quantitative analysis of the Dhamma could well end up to > be very misleading. You imply in the above statement that Jhana is a > core teaching because there are lots of references to it in the suttas. > That doesn't necessarily follow. Indeed, anatta, for example, isn't > referred to very much at all in the suttas, by comparison. Does that > mean it must be a lesser or peripheral teaching? Of course not! To > take a quantitative view dismissing or downplaying the importance of > anatta would be a tragic mistake. It may well be a mistake to talk up > the importance of something frequently referred to, when there are > other, perhaps contextual, reasons for that frequency of reference e.g. > the Buddha was born into a culture where Jhana practices were the > yardstick (they have found artwork showing cross-legged meditators > under trees in the very ancient Indus Valley civilisation - well before > Gotama's time). ===== You are correct... it is not the frequency of mentioning that makes jhana a key teaching. It is a key teaching because it is the same (in my opinion) as "Right Concentration" of the Noble Eightfold path. ===== > > I previously gave a silly example by saying that being quantitative > about the core teachings of Dhamma is like trying to determine > if "loneliness" was a key theme of literature by counting up how many > times the word "lonely" appears in novels. It's a seriously limited > methodology and I caution against it. > > Don't get me wrong. I know you will reply with a string of other > reasons why you take Jhana to be a core teaching. ===== Just one point... because they are part of the Noble Eightfold Path, they are a key teaching. ===== > I also suspect you > reject any standard view that liberation can be attained by dry > insight, because no sutta reference can be found to support it. ===== I have no reason to reject dry insight (arahants without jhanas) - I think that Bhikkhu Bodhi did find Sutta references to support this. ===== > That's > another area where I have serious reservations about your basic > premises - treating the suttas like strict Christians treat the Bible > makes me nervous. Maybe - just maybe - some of the commentaries that > have come down to us were sincere and good attempts at preserving the > true Dhamma by filling in gaps in the suttas or ironing out possible > misconceptions. In which case, Rob, your methodology (as studious as > it appears to us academic westerners) shuts you out of the real game. ===== Please elaborate... I want to understand better. ===== > > I don't have any answers, Rob. But I'm not prepared to tie my search > down to premises I feel are suspect. If impersonal conditions rule, > should I listen to all this suggestive talk about something that rules > conditions? When the suggestion is queried, they all deny they made > it. It's like a cockroach - shine a light on it and it disappears. > Turn the light out and it sneaks back again. (-: > > I hope we can all keep our senses of humour and have a good LOL! I > don't expect everyone (anyone!) to agree with my opinion, but hopefully > there's some benefit in sharing it. ===== Sorry, I missed the "controversial" part of your opinion. Please repeat this portion. Metta, Rob M :-) 51340 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: conditional robmoult Hi Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > It is interesting talk about conditional and paccayas. > I would think it is interesting to put that together with states of > arising and looking for path. > It says in Abidhamma: States are good, bad, neutral. Suppose that I > grasp to particular substance, then I wach my mind for arising of > states and I can find what is coming: good, bad or neutral. I guess > easy states would be good, uneasy would be bad, some other neutral. > Descriminative mind, as I understand is not the path. But gresp and > balance is ok. > How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice? ===== Our distant ancestors sat in caves watching the storm outside thinking that the weather was the result of the mood of Gods. So they made sacrifices to the weather gods thinking (hoping) that this would give good results. As mankind evolved, we came to understand that weather was a natural phenomena. Once we all understood that it was a natural phenomena, we stopped the useless practice of making sacrifices to the weather gods. Today, the "experts" understand some of the underlying principles of how weather works; they know a lot of the details that the rest of us don't really care to learn. Over time we have given up our animistic practices and most of us (Hundus excepted) are left with one or two gods. The one "god" that we all have the toughest time with is the "god of self". Meditation shows us that the mind is a natural phenomena, not directed by a "god of self". We can read about anatta in texts and that is book knowledge. When we meditate we have experential knowledge that the "god of self" is not real. The Abhidhamma in general, and paccaya (conditions) in particular, are the minute details of the natural processes and how they really work. We gave up weather gods when somebody learned the details of warm fronts, cold fronts, etc. and explained that there were natural explanations for weather that did not involve gods. Unfortunately, we stubbornly cling to the concept of the god of self. An intellectual understanding can (perhaps) loosen the ties that bind us to some extent. However, we are so attached to the god of self, some of us so inclined need to study the minute details to help to convince ourselves. Of course, none of this replaces experential knowledge... as it says in the Bhumija Sutta (MN 126), results come from proper practice, not from aspiration. Metta, Rob M :-) 51341 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi Joop, You wrote: ----------------- > Ken, you are making things a little bit to complicated to me. ----------------- Sorry, Joop, I seem to disagree with just about everything, don't I? --------------------------- <. . .> J: > - Jhana in daily life will be difficult, I have no experience with it. But mindful one can be in 'formal meditatiopn': sitting or walking. And one can be it in daily life. These two ways are strenthening each other. --------------------------- I don't have a vipassana practice of any kind - formal meditation, or otherwise. The idea of doing something to change the course of conditionality is inconsistent with my understanding of the Dhamma. -------------- J: > - You said "Vipassana development is not always (to put it mildly) accompanied by jhana." What do you mean by this? Of course being mindful to what reaches the sense-doors (an important aspect of vipassana-meditation) can not be accompanied by jhana; as far as I understand in jhana the sense-doors are closed; or am I a simple mind? --------------- I share your understanding on this point. Jhana can only know concepts; it cannot know conditioned dhammas. Therefore, it does not lead to renunciation - only satipatthana does that. Jhana cannot know Nibbana, so there can be no enlightenment in the same moment as there is jhana. Unless, of course, there is such a thing as supramundane jhana. I don't really know. Rob M was right: I am not very interested in the details, and that makes them harder to learn. :-) Ken H 51342 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:55am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > J: > > - You said "Vipassana development is not always (to put it mildly) > accompanied by jhana." > What do you mean by this? Of course being mindful to what reaches the > sense-doors (an important aspect of vipassana-meditation) can not be > accompanied by jhana; as far as I understand in jhana the sense- doors > are closed; or am I a simple mind? > --------------- > > I share your understanding on this point. Jhana can only know > concepts; it cannot know conditioned dhammas. Therefore, it does not > lead to renunciation - only satipatthana does that. ===== Ken, you differentiate between jhana and satipatthana according to type of object taken (concepts vs. conditioned dhammas). This is not my understanding. Jhana can definitely take conditioned dhammas as objects (earth kasina, fire kasina, etc.). Satipatthana can also take concepts as object (sitting, Four Noble Truths, etc.). My understanding is that the key difference between jhana and insight is how mindfulness is used. It is my understanding that in jhanas, one uses mindfulness to enhance concentration (which is why it makes sense to sit in a stable posture). In insight, one uses mindfulness to penetrate the three characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). ===== > > Jhana cannot know Nibbana, so there can be no enlightenment in the > same moment as there is jhana. Unless, of course, there is such a > thing as supramundane jhana. ===== Ken, I have been waiting a long time to write these words... "We agree 100%!!!"... at least on this point :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 51343 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:38am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi Rob M, I am not sure that I can be any clearer than I was last time. When I can think of another angle, I will try again. Actually, I thought it was you who were having second thoughts. Joop quoted you as saying: "I am of the opinion that attaining jhanas is not required to gain enlightenment. I belive that Bhikkhu Bodhi gave a detailed analysis of this issue and came to the same conclusion." Are you now saying that Right Concentration of the NEP is the jhanas, but attaining them is not required for enlightenment? -------------------- > I have read your reply but I am still not clear. I want to make sure > that I understand your position on this before proceeding. Please > clarify: > > Do you now accept that "Right Concentration" in the Noble Eightfold > Path is the same as the jhanas and now you want to clarify some > points (cetasikas, etc.) to square this with your broader > understanding of the Dhamma? ------------------- My point was that Right Understanding *is* a cetasika. And yet, the sutta describes a monk experiencing a series of jhana cittas, and then says, "This, monks, is called right concentration." Surely, you will agree that further explanation is required. (?) Ken H 51344 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I nidive Hi Rob M, > > I also suspect you reject any standard view that liberation can > > be attained by dry insight, because no sutta reference can be > > found to support it. > > I have no reason to reject dry insight (arahants without jhanas) - I > think that Bhikkhu Bodhi did find Sutta references to support this. I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi said that jhana is required for the path of non-return. He made this point in a thesis that was posted by Sarah "not too long ago" in DSG (Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:00 pm) :-). -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33870 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikaayas that the jhaanas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe you have read this post before. Regards, Swee Boon 51345 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:41am Subject: Jhana and Samadhi bardosein Dear Phil, Rob M & All, The following was extracted from the BPS edition _The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation_ by Mahathera Henepola Gunaratana, Wheel 351/353, pp. 6-8. (Please excuse my poor typing skills! Hal) "Jhana and Samadhi In the vocabulary of Buddhist meditation the word "Jhana" is closely connected with another word, "_samadhi_" generally rendered by "concentration." _Samadhi_ derives from the prefixed verbal root sam-a-dha meaning to collect or to bring together, thus suggesting the concentration or unification of the mind. The word "_samadhi_" is almost interchangeable with the word "_samantha_," serenity, though the latter comes from a different root, sam, meaning to become calm. In the suttas, _samadhi_ is defined as mental one-pointedness, (_cittass'ekaggata_, M.i.301) and this definition is followed through rigorously in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma treats one-pointedness as a distinct mental factor present in every state of consciousness, exercising the function of unifying the mind on its object. From the strict psychological standpoint, _samadhi_ can be present in unwholesome states of consciousness as well as in wholesome and neutral states. In its unwholesome forms it is called "wrong concentration" (_micchasamadhi_), in its wholesome forms "right concentration" (sammasamadhi). In expositions on the practice of meditation, however, _samadhi_ is limited to one-pointedness of mind (Vism. 84-85; PP. 84-85), and even here we can understand from the context that the word means only the wholesome one-pointedness involved in the deliberated transmutation of the mind to a heightened level of calm. Thus Buddhaghosa explains _samadhi_ etymologically as "the centring of consciousness and consciousness concomitants evenly and rightly on a single object, undistracted and unscattered" (Vism. 84-85; PP 85). However, despite the commentator's bid for consistency, the word _samadhi_ is used in the Pali literature on meditation with varying degrees of specificity of meaning. In the narrowest sense, as defined by Buddhaghosa, it denotes the particular mental factor responsible for the concentrating of the mind, namely, one- pointedness. In a wider sense, it can signify the states of unified consciousness that result from the strengthening of concentration, i.e. the meditative attainments of serenity and the stages leading up to them. And in a still wider sense the word _samadhi_ can be applied to the method of practice used to produce and cultivate those refined states of concentration, here being equivalent to the development of serenity. It is in the second sense that _samadhi_ and jhana come closest in meaning. The Buddha explains right concentration as the four jhanas (D.ii, 313), and in doing so allows concentration to encompass the meditative attainments signified by the jhanas. However, even though jhana and _samadhi_ can overlap in denotation, certain differences in their suggested and contextual meanings prevent unqualified identification of the two terms. First, behind the Buddha's use of the jhana formula to explain right concentration lies a more technical understanding of the terms. According to this understanding _samadhi_ can be narrowed down in range to signify only one mental factor, the most prominent in the jhana, namely, one-pointendness, while the word "jhana" itself must be seen as encompassing the state of mental factors individuating that meditative state of jhana. In the second place, when _samadhi_ is considered in its broader meaning it involves a wider range of reference than jhana. The Pali exegetical tradition recognizes three levels of _samadhi_ preliminary concentration (_parikammasamadhi_) which is produced as a result of the meditator's initial efforts to focus his mind on his meditation subject; access concentration (_upacarasamadhi_), marked by the suppression of the five hindrances, the manifestation of the jhana factors, and the appearance of a luminous mental replica of the meditation object called the counterpart sign (_patibhaganimitta_); and absorption concentration (_appanasamadhi_), the complete immersion of the mind in its object effected by the full maturation of the jhana factors. Absorption concentration comprises the eight attainments, the four jhanas and the four immaterial attainments, and to this extent jhana and _samadhi_ coincide. However, _samadhi_ still has a broader scope than jhana, since it includes not only the jhanas themselves but also the two preparatory degrees of concentration leading up to them. Further, _samadhi_ also covers a still different type of concentration called momentary concentration (_khanikasamadhi_), the mobile mental stabilization produced in the course of insight contemplation on the passing flow of phenomena." ____________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 51346 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:43am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I jwromeijn Dear Ken, Rob, Swee Boon (and all), Rob. First the simple model: one can be concentrated a little, then more and then very much. Somewhere on that scale 'being in jhana' is situated, but the whole range is 'right concentration': 'right' is not the intensity but the intention of the concentration. Second, you state to Ken: "Ken, you differentiate between jhana and satipatthana according to type of object taken (concepts vs. conditioned dhammas). This is not my understanding. Jhana can definitely take conditioned dhammas as objects (earth kasina, fire kasina, etc.). Satipatthana can also take concepts as object (sitting, Four Noble Truths, etc.)." I think somewhere we (Ken, you and me) are talking about different things: IN INSIGHT-MEDITATION (aka vipassana-meditation Mahasi style) OBJECT ARE NOT TAKEN; THEY ARISE (and fall), "all" the meditator had to do is noting this. Perhaps you like the ebook of Ven. Sujiva of Buddhist Wisdom Centre, Mallaysia: "Essentials of Insight Meditation Practice" (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/essentials.pdf) See quotes below In this book he in fact explains the same as Ken does (Ken: a propagandist of insight meditation, you could not have dreamt of that) And Ken, two other remarks to you: Ken: "Jhana cannot know Nibbana, so there can be no enlightenment in the same moment as there is jhana. Unless, of course, there is such a thing as supramundane jhana." Joop: perhaps my knowledge is not enough but I ask: so what. Is one a arahant (because enlightened) after having been in supramundane jhana for some time (Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Days?) My last and most serious question to you, (and Rob and others) is that's difficult to combine what I know about the mindfulnes- concentration discussion and the MahaSaccaka Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 36) in which the Buddha explains the first jhana is enough to get awakened: "I thought: `I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then—quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities— I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: `That is the path to Awakening." Metta Joop Quotes from Ven. Sujiva: Certain objects can be used for samatha or vipassana meditation. One is the anapana object, watching the in-breath at the nose tip. People frequently ask, "Is the concentration at the nose tip (anapana) a samatha or vipassana object?" It can be both. This depends on the nature of your attention. In the beginning when using the preliminary object it can be a samatha or vipassana object as it is mixed. When you start counting the breath it tends more towards the samatha object. But there is still the sensation of the breath to be felt. (p 166) Vipassana objects, unlike samatha objects, are realities. They are not mind-created, that is you do not imagine them. They happen as a natural occurrence—as mental processes and material processes. When you see these processes clearer and clearer, of course the three characteristics of existence—anicca, dukkha and anatta—also become clearer. These are deeper aspects of the mental and material processes. (p. 167) 51347 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I nidive Hi Rob M (& Joop), > Satipatthana can also take concepts as object (sitting, Four Noble > Truths, etc.). This is a very noteworthy statement, and I agree with you. Three cheers, Rob M! Thanks to Joop also. I missed this in that long post of Rob M, as usual. Regards, Swee Boon 51348 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I nidive Hi Rob M, > Thanks to Joop also. I missed this in that long post of Rob M, as > usual. I realized it's actually not very long. But just too many messages and I missed it. Regards, Swee Boon 51349 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/11/05 6:41:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > I don't have a vipassana practice of any kind - formal meditation, or > otherwise. The idea of doing something to change the course of > conditionality is inconsistent with my understanding of the Dhamma. > ==================== Why, then, Ken, do you study, contemplate, and discuss Dhamma? If that is not to alter the course of conditionality, is it just a matter of interest, like being interested in reading Playboy, Penthouse, Sports Illustrated, Shakespeare, or comic books? ;-) And, just to ask, are you opposed to doing anything to change the course of conditionality in all matters? Do you never take any purposeful actions to alter the course of events, for example in terms of choice of job or project, or choosing whom and what to vote for, or where and what to eat, or choice of medication or even taking any medication, or caring for loved ones, or stepping out of the way of an oncoming truck? And if one never chooses ... anything, not even to direct attention, how does one differ from a stone or stick? With metta, Howard 51350 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: Bickering Yahoo! Group? buddhatrue Hi Phil and Tep (and Ken H.), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, and all > > > Tep: > > Again, you are assuming that Tep doesn't have the capability to > > understand any sutta at all. Well, why don't you just correct me > > whenever my sutta quotes and/or interpretations are wrong. That's > all I > > sincerely ask you to do. But you have to make sure that your > > understanding is right before making such a judgement. > > We all have the capability to understand suttas. We also have the > accumulated tendency (lobha) to want too much too soon - this is > especially strongly conditioned in the west, in my opinion. So, yes, > I assume that we are all hungry to dig understanding out of suttas. > I do assume that. Sorry, but that is a basic understanding I have, > based on looking at my own mind - the only mind I can really know. I > could assume that I am greedier than others (a form of mana) or > assume that I am just as greedy as others (also mana, as any kind of > comparing ourselves to others is) Or I could just say "we" and leave > it there. I don't know. Please don't worry about it. Remember, > anything anyone posts at DSG is really not important compared to > understanding paramattha dhammas. You can call them the khandas, or > dhatus or ayatanas or whatever schema the Buddha uses to teach them > in the Suttanta if you don't like "paramattha dhammas." Let me give you my opinion on this matter. As I told you before, Phil, we are all immersed in delusion (moha). But, does that mean that no one, unless they are an ariyan, has the ability to understand a sutta? Of course not! The Buddha taught to the unenlightened; he fashioned his teachings for the unenlightened; they were designed for the unenlightened to learn the dhamma. As the Buddha said, he only taught suffering and the path to end suffering. It doesn't take an ariyan mind to understand that. He didn't teach ultimate reality and nibbana (except in a few rare cases). So really, I don't believe all this mumbo jumbo from Ken H. about how one needs to know the entire Tipitaka, commentaries and all, in order to understand a single sutta! That is pure nonsense. (BTW, he only says that when a sutta disagrees with his viewpoint. If it agreed with his viewpoint, of course one should be able to understand it in one read! ;-)) Metta, James Ps. If you want to read some suttas which contain ultimate reality and nibbana and are therefore VERY difficult to understand, just read some of the Mahayana Suttas. 51351 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > It is a summary of Nina's book "24 conditions". It is available on- > line. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Rob M, I think I read it for some time at www.zolag.co.uk. I know. But whenever patthaana is touched it hits the heart. With respect, Htoo Naing 51352 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Rob M (Phil and other Abhidhammikas) - > > Please let me apologize for my seemingly negative tone in the > statement I made in the last post ! > > > > > Tep: So it seems reasonable to argue that those conditions beyond > > the 'dependent origination' and some subsets of the Abhidhamma > > material not expounded by the Buddha, were not considered by our > > Greatest Sage, the Buddha, as necessary for Enlightenment. What is > > your thought on this? > > > > Tep : I did not foresee the tone that sounded negative to you, until after > reading your answer. > > Rob M : Tep, I am not sure that I answered your question. Certainly > there were those who gained enlightenment without any study of > Abhidhamma. However, that does not mean that studying the > Abhidhamma cannot be of great value for those suitably disposed. > > Tep: Ah, I did not question the worth of the whole Abhidhamma -- I only > question the part of the Abhidhamma that was added later after the > Buddha's parinibbana. Questioning its usefulness does not mean > rejecting it as 100% useless ! Again, like I told Phil earlier, the dhamma > is not to be claimed : 'this dhamma is mine, I am identified with it, it is > my self'. > > "In fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies > such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada > and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of > Abhidhamma." [Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda ] > > Tep: Thank you for the above passage. I agree somewhat with it. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Somewhat is more than nothing. When abhidhamma is totally discarded then teaching to people who have not learnt anything related to Dhamma is almost impossible. There are many things that cannot be understood without the help of abhidhamma knowledge. When someone has contracted a disease and if he knows the remedies even though he is not a medical expert he may be able to treat the disease. But he will not be able to treat other diseases. To know all possible diseases and their treatments is to know almost everything about diseases and various modes of treatments. Without the basic knowledge of such depth, one will never know any new disease and any new treatment. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51353 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:17am Subject: Re: conditional htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > > Hi > It is interesting talk about conditional and paccayas. > I would think it is interesting to put that together with states of > arising and looking for path. > It says in Abidhamma: States are good, bad, neutral. Suppose that I > grasp to particular substance, then I wach my mind for arising of > states and I can find what is coming: good, bad or neutral. I guess > easy states would be good, uneasy would be bad, some other neutral. > Descriminative mind, as I understand is not the path. But gresp and > balance is ok. > How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice? > > With metta > Leo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Leo, You asked 'How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice?' Well, when we mediate we find that there are objects. 1. sound 2. hardness of the floor where we sit 3. warmth of the carpet 4. smell of the surroundings 5. taste in our mouth 6. subtle touch at lips, nostrils 7. tenseness at abdomen and laxity at abdomen etc etc. When we find these that means there arise sense-consciousness (panca- vi~n~naana) and mind-consciousness (mano-vi~n~naana). When mediate these are seen. There are paccayas or conditions when these happen. Example is object condition or aarammana paccaya. Without object there is no consciousness to that particular object. This is just an example of paccaya when we mediate. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51354 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 572 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The last stock of dhamma that I have been writing is saccaa or 'Noble Truths'. The first truth has been talked in the previous posts under Dhamma Thread. The second truth is called 'dukkha samudaya saccaa' or simply 'samudaya saccaa'. Dukkha is suffering. Samudaya is the cause. Sacca is the truth. Dukkha samudaya sacca is 'the truth of the cause of suffering'. All sufferings have a cause and it is craving or tanhaa. It is lobha cetasika. But here one has to be careful that 'not all tanhaa or craving are samudaya saccaa or 'the truth of suffering'. There is one tanhaa that is not the cause of suffering but that tanhaa itself is suffering. It is 'ta.m pi iccha.m na labhanti'. It is 'not obtaining what one wants'. But when this craving has committed something and when the results come that craving or tanha becomes samudaya saccaa or the truth of the cause of suffering rather than 'the truth of suffering'. The difference is time relationship. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 51355 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: conditional buddhatrue Hi Htoo and Leo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views > Exchange)" wrote: > > > > Hi > > It is interesting talk about conditional and paccayas. > > I would think it is interesting to put that together with states of > > arising and looking for path. > > It says in Abidhamma: States are good, bad, neutral. Suppose that I > > grasp to particular substance, then I wach my mind for arising of > > states and I can find what is coming: good, bad or neutral. I guess > > easy states would be good, uneasy would be bad, some other neutral. > > Descriminative mind, as I understand is not the path. But gresp and > > balance is ok. > > How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice? > > > > With metta > > Leo > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > - > Dear Leo, > > You asked 'How would you put together paccayas and meditation > practice?' > > Well, when we mediate we find that there are objects. > > 1. sound > 2. hardness of the floor where we sit > 3. warmth of the carpet > 4. smell of the surroundings > 5. taste in our mouth > 6. subtle touch at lips, nostrils > 7. tenseness at abdomen and laxity at abdomen etc etc. > > When we find these that means there arise sense-consciousness (panca- > vi~n~naana) and mind-consciousness (mano-vi~n~naana). > > When mediate these are seen. There are paccayas or conditions when > these happen. Example is object condition or aarammana paccaya. > > Without object there is no consciousness to that particular object. > > This is just an example of paccaya when we mediate. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > Thank you for this wonderful post!! Sadhu X 3! This is just a sample of the amazing dhammas available to the meditator for investigation. Again, Abhidhamma and meditation are not incompatible! Metta, James 51356 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: Bodhgaya leoaive Hi! Interesting observation about lobha for a place. Buddha said to walk in places where they walked, is good. I would think it is ok and even more then that. But lobha to place and tree would bring state of feeling as dear and loosing would be suffering. That would not be Buddha teaching. It is more like subject used for your goal, that is it (that is how i see it). I would think it would be the same interesting to walk in different groves and parks and even some peaks, where elders walked, meditated and talked about Dhamma. To say that those places have less value would be improper. I am not sure if there is a such vacational trip, but it would be a great to see all that. In addition to that it would be great to see places where was first sermon and where they all collected the food. With metta Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello dsg friends, > > I have much lobha for this place. the temple grounds which surround the > Po tree are wonderful. however, it is all just visible object and a whole > bunch of thinking about concepts. > > I am thinking that if one reads the suttas without right understanding > then its almost a waste of time. this has been some very personal learning > for me. will attempt to write more about this if i can put into words what i > have learnt. > > special hello to phil from sukin. > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > 51357 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What Buddha and what tree mr39515 Dear Joop Hi there... I was just wondering which text which say it is not Pali ?? Or perhaps the better question would be what are the langauge spoken by other planes of existance if it is not Pali ?? Out of the 4 human world, we southern people uses English. Even so, not all of us understand English. Other langauge still exist like Thai, Malay, Dutch etc. etc. exist. I guess we are just a minority compare to all the beings in the 31 planes of existance. Our Buddha is a Sammasambuddha which can teach and His teaching is learned by other planes of existance as well. So what langauge did he used so that other beings from other existance can understand? Worth the discussion to clear doubts. But I would think walking the path is more important. Any way, I think we created some doubts in the group and hopefully, it did not create a major impact. metta mr39515 --- Joop wrote: > > Hallo Ng Boon Huat > > To say it simple and straight: I think your idea of > Pali is totally > incorrect. As far as I know, Pali is constructed, > mainly from > Sanskriet after the death of the Buddha. > That beings from the other 30 realms speak Pali: > there is no proof at > all for that. Nowhere in the Tipitaka is stated > this. I don't know > who was the first Theravadin who got that idea, I'm > afraid it was > Buddhaghosa. > Perhaps more important: we (Theravadins) don't need > such an idea. > > Metta > > Joop > > 51358 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice leoaive Hi Very interesting about panna and conditional and analysis. Suppose for perfection or the bases I would choose forest and had right bases. But that would be quick decision. Panna would be to observe the place and do not be close to lions or some other predators. At the same time, no city with its bases: ladies, shopes, kings, armies, and all kinds of things. I guess it is a good way, mentioned in here, to have panna with conditional choice, otherwise you can run into troubles. With metta Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > > > Thanks for this message. Before I comment, I would like to refer back > to our previous conversation. I am not trying to have the last word > on it; I just want to clear up a possible misunderstanding. > > I wrote: > ------------ > >KH: We don't remember the theory we learned in previous lives: even > the > > theory we learned yesterday is mostly forgotten. But panna is not > > theory: it is a conditioned dhamma. > ------------ > > And you replied: > --------------------- > M: hmm panna is unconditioned? Only nibbana is unconditioned is it > not? Panna=nibbana? Even if it were unconditioned it shouldnt affect > this issue of remembering? > --------------------- > > Did you assume that I meant to type "unconditioned" where I > typed, "conditioned." If so, is that because you equate "theory" > with "conditioned" and "non-theory" with "unconditioned?" > > The threefold classification used in the Abhidhamma is: > 1) pannatti (theory, illusion, concept) > 2) conditioned dhammas - citta, cetasika and rupa > 3) unconditioned dhamma - nibbana > > So my point was; because theory is not a reality it is subject to > being forgotten. However, panna is a reality( aa conditioned > dhamma). It is not a mere theory that we can forget. When panna has > arisen (by conditions), it becomes a condition for more panna (and > other dhammas) to arise. > > Moving on to your next message: > > ---------------- > M: Whether you accidentally understood anatta through a moment of > satipatthaana or whether it happened when you intentionally decided > to cultivate the satipatthana; panna is panna. > -------------- > > I agree. > > I understand that panna and other dhammas arise by conditions. When > the conditions are in place for panna to arise, it will arise. When > the conditions are not in place for panna to arise, no amount of > trying or wishing will make it happen. > > --------------------------------- > <. . .> > M: > On the other hand it is like someone learning to swim trying to > understand exactly what it is like to be in water, for decades, > without actually getting into the pool. > ---------------------------------- > > I understand you to be giving the following simile: > Formal meditation is a condition for satipatthana, just as > getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. > > > If that was what the Buddha taught, then I would have to agree, but I > don't believe it is what he taught. I believe the Buddha's equivalent > simile would have been: > Association with wise friends, > hearing the true Dhamma and > considering the true Dhamma are conditions for satipatthana, just as > getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. > > ----------------- > <. . .> > M: > A little > twist of dhamma logic seems to have closed off all avenues for > practice for people so deeply committed to dhamma and it does disturb > me. > ------------------ > > It is very kind of you to be concerned for those of us who do not > practise formal meditation. Let me assure you, however, that we have > not closed off the avenues for practice actually found in the texts. > Speaking for myself, the more I understand the original texts, the > more certain I am of a way that does not involve formal practice. > > > Ken H > 51359 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:09am Subject: Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas leoaive Hi I am not sure what you are trying to acheive in here by putting all that together in a certain order. I guess i miss a point of you vision. When I consider that, I like to brake it up to how one relate to other and affect other and what all that can do for me. Maybe it is my way, but I like to ask "what's in it for me?" Maybe I am too practical. I do not understand why do I need to know a list of items like that, because I would never remember that, unless I see something in that. Please let me know With metta Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > This is unlikely to be of use to anyone other than me, but since I > did this to get organized for my paccayas project I might as well > post it. ... 51360 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:41pm Subject: Kamma leading to Influence or Disrespect ?!? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Social Prominence?? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings are influential & prominent, while others are neglected & disrespected? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, friend, some man or woman is envious, one who is jealous, resents, and begrudges the gains, honour, respect, fame, name, reverence, salutation, and veneration rightly received by others.... Because of intending and performing such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is reborn in a state of difficulty, in a wretched destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, right after death, is not reborn in an state of deprivation, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn, such one is not influential, unimportant, neglected & disrespected #! These are the actions, friend, leading to future disrespect: Being envious, being one who is jealous, resents, & begrudges the gains, honour, respect, reverence, salutations, fame, name and veneration rightly received by others.... However, friend, any man or woman, who is neither envious, jealous, resenting, nor begrudging the gains, honour, respect, reverence, salutations, fame, name & veneration rightly received by others, because of intending & undertaking such good mental action, at breakup of the body, after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable and happy destination, even in one of the many divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is influential, & respected %! This is the way, friend, leading to prominence & influence, namely neither being envious, jealous, resenting, nor begrudging the gains, honour, respect, reverence, fame, name, salutation, reputation & veneration rightly received by others... #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51361 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas htootintnaing Dear Phil, Leo and all, Paccaya project? Good job. There are paccayas. There are conditions. Without root trees cannot survive. The root condition or hetu paccaya support dhamma each other. One is in meditation. He may be calm. or equally he may be aggressive because of not obtaining any insight. In both case root conditions are there. In the first case at least there are non-aversion and non-attachment. In the seconf case there are aversions. These are roots and they supply the whole trees of mind that have been arising one after another. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > > Hi > > I am not sure what you are trying to acheive in here by putting all > that together in a certain order. I guess i miss a point of you > vision. > When I consider that, I like to brake it up to how one relate to > other and affect other and what all that can do for me. Maybe it is > my way, but I like to ask "what's in it for me?" Maybe I am too > practical. I do not understand why do I need to know a list of items > like that, because I would never remember that, unless I see > something in that. > Please let me know > > With metta > Leo > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all > > > > This is unlikely to be of use to anyone other than me, but since > I > > did this to get organized for my paccayas project I might as well > > post it. ... > 51362 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 0:37pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice matheesha333 Hi KenH, KH:...I am not trying to have the last word > on it;... M: :) I feel the last word will be the one we both remember from our own emails!! But it is nevertheless interesting to explore beliefs. KH:Did you assume that I meant to type... M: Oh a bit of a mix up there. Sorry about that. But you have clarified it now: KH: So my point was; because theory is not a reality it is subject to > being forgotten. However, panna is a reality( aa conditioned > dhamma). It is not a mere theory that we can forget. When panna has > arisen (by conditions), it becomes a condition for more panna (and > other dhammas) to arise. M: I think we need to get experiential here. Why do you assume that panna doesnt fade, like memory? It is not permanent. Not only does all phenomena arise and pass away it also changes. Panna is not something that can be crystalised into its own object, say for example like a Sound. It is ultimately a thought, arising at the mind door. The content of the thought is Understanding of the dhammas, which we call panna. If understanding is to be used to generate more understanding later, it needs to be retained in memory. Memory is impermanent with time and especially liftimes. if an old person learns the dhamma but keeps forgetting it, how can he build up on it? There has to be another mechanism outside simple memory but that seems to be weak and near subconsious perhaps better suited for bodhisattvas to work with. Memory is known to be notoriously unreliable from psychology experiments. Only continuous brushing up/building up can give rise to something even greater. KH:I understand that panna and other dhammas arise by conditions. When > the conditions are in place for panna to arise, it will arise. When > the conditions are not in place for panna to arise, no amount of > trying or wishing will make it happen. M: Hmm, a partial 'I agree' to that. One cannot wish for wisdom. But one can cultivate ones mind (read: 'bringing the conditions together for wisdom to arise') for wisdom to arise. You may or may not agree with that :) KH: Formal meditation is a condition for satipatthana, just as > getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. > If that was what the Buddha taught, then I would have to agree, but I > don't believe it is what he taught. I believe the Buddha's equivalent > simile would have been: > Association with wise friends, > hearing the true Dhamma and > considering the true Dhamma are conditions for satipatthana, M: From the Mahasatipattana sutta: "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. I'm sorry, but this is in the sutta in plain English ..sorry Pali! If this isnt formal meditation.... But I am interested in knowing why you seem to think this is not acurate/workable. KH:Speaking for myself, the more I understand the original texts, the > more certain I am of a way that does not involve formal practice. M: I'm sure there are many ways of doing this, of varying degrees of efficiency. I do not think I know enough about every method in existence to say that something cannot work. But what do you feel about the numerous times sitting meditation has been described in the suttas? I'm curious if you feel that they are incorrect, or simply feel they are inefficient. I dont think there is even one serious meditation teacher in the whole world who will limit the practice to only sitting mditation. The practice is constant. Hope you are well, metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > > > Thanks for this message. Before I comment, I would like to refer back > to our previous conversation. I am not trying to have the last word > on it; I just want to clear up a possible misunderstanding. > > I wrote: > ------------ > >KH: We don't remember the theory we learned in previous lives: even > the > > theory we learned yesterday is mostly forgotten. But panna is not > > theory: it is a conditioned dhamma. > ------------ > > And you replied: > --------------------- > M: hmm panna is unconditioned? Only nibbana is unconditioned is it > not? Panna=nibbana? Even if it were unconditioned it shouldnt affect > this issue of remembering? > --------------------- > > Did you assume that I meant to type "unconditioned" where I > typed, "conditioned." If so, is that because you equate "theory" > with "conditioned" and "non-theory" with "unconditioned?" > > The threefold classification used in the Abhidhamma is: > 1) pannatti (theory, illusion, concept) > 2) conditioned dhammas - citta, cetasika and rupa > 3) unconditioned dhamma - nibbana > > So my point was; because theory is not a reality it is subject to > being forgotten. However, panna is a reality( aa conditioned > dhamma). It is not a mere theory that we can forget. When panna has > arisen (by conditions), it becomes a condition for more panna (and > other dhammas) to arise. > > Moving on to your next message: > > ---------------- > M: Whether you accidentally understood anatta through a moment of > satipatthaana or whether it happened when you intentionally decided > to cultivate the satipatthana; panna is panna. > -------------- > > I agree. > > I understand that panna and other dhammas arise by conditions. When > the conditions are in place for panna to arise, it will arise. When > the conditions are not in place for panna to arise, no amount of > trying or wishing will make it happen. > > --------------------------------- > <. . .> > M: > On the other hand it is like someone learning to swim trying to > understand exactly what it is like to be in water, for decades, > without actually getting into the pool. > ---------------------------------- > > I understand you to be giving the following simile: > Formal meditation is a condition for satipatthana, just as > getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. > > > If that was what the Buddha taught, then I would have to agree, but I > don't believe it is what he taught. I believe the Buddha's equivalent > simile would have been: > Association with wise friends, > hearing the true Dhamma and > considering the true Dhamma are conditions for satipatthana, just as > getting into the pool is a condition for learning to swim. > > ----------------- > <. . .> > M: > A little > twist of dhamma logic seems to have closed off all avenues for > practice for people so deeply committed to dhamma and it does disturb > me. > ------------------ > > It is very kind of you to be concerned for those of us who do not > practise formal meditation. Let me assure you, however, that we have > not closed off the avenues for practice actually found in the texts. > Speaking for myself, the more I understand the original texts, the > more certain I am of a way that does not involve formal practice. > > > Ken H > 51363 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:05pm Subject: Conditions Part 8 - Support Condition (nissaya-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, A man crosses a river by rowing a canoe. The canoe helps the man to cross the river by means of dependence condition and reciprocally, the man aids the canoe to cross the river by dependence condition. Plants and animals depend on the earth for their existence; here the earth aids plants and animals by way of dependence but no reciprocity exists. Another example of non-reciprocal dependence is a canvas supporting a painting. The examples of co-nascent condition above are also examples of support condition. The pre-nascent conditions are also examples of support condition; the eye-base rupa is related to the eye-consciousness citta and its associated cetasikas by dependence condition. The same is true for the other five bases; ear, nose, tongue, body and heart (heart-base is the foundation of the mind-consciousness element and its associated cetasikas). Metta, Rob M :-) 51365 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:08pm Subject: Conditions Part 9 - Decisive Support Condition (upanissaya-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Upanissaya is a powerful cause which aids by means of strong dependence condition. For example, the rain is a powerful cause that supports the growth of plants and animals. Similarly, parents are a powerful support for their children. Decisive-support (or strong inducement) condition is threefold: - Decisive support of object: The citta and associated cetasikas are strongly conditioned by the object. This is the set of objects listed under "object predominance" (i.e. very desirable objects). The difference between "decisive support of object" and "object prominence" is that the former focuses on the strength of the object, whereas the latter focuses on the strength of the citta and associated cetasikas. Evil things, by wrong thinking about them, become an inducement to immoral life; by right thinking, an inducement to moral life. But good things may be an inducement not only to similarly good things, but also to bad things, such as self- conceit, vanity, envy, etc. - Decisive support of proximity: Same as proximity condition but focuses on the powerful conditioning link between cittas - Natural decisive support (my favourite!): Kamma is the natural decisive support condition for the vipaka it creates. When repeated frequently, kusala and akusala become habitual and are powerful inducement for the future arising of kusala and akusala vipaka, even in future lives. For example, in a previous life, Angulimala had been a man-eating Yakkha. External conditions such as food, dwelling place and friends can also be natural decisive support conditions for the dhammas which they cause to arise. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, greed to theft, hate to murder, unsuitable food and climate to ill-health and friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. Metta, Rob M :-) 51366 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Conditions Part 10 - Pre-nascence Condition (purejata-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Pre-nascence-condition refers to something previously arisen, which forms a base for something arising later on. For example, the sun and the moon have come into existence since the formation of this solar system. They give light to the people who are living on the earth now. So we may say that the sun and the moon aid the people by means of pre- nascence condition. Pre-nascence condition is twofold: - Base pre-nascence condition: The five sense-organs and the physical base of mind, having arisen at the time of birth, form the condition for the cittas and cetasikas arising later. - Object pre-nascence condition: Rupa (object for cittas and cetasikas in the citta-process) form the condition for the cittas and cetasikas arising later. Metta, Rob M :-) 51369 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:32pm Subject: Conditions Part 11 - Post-nascence Condition (paccha-jata-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, Post-nascence-condition occurs when the cause arises later and the conditioned thing appears earlier. In the case of a vulture chick, after being hatched from the egg, it feels hungry. It expects that its mother will bring some food for it to eat. But the mother vulture, as a rule, never brings food for its offspring. The chick's volition to eat food (cetanŒ) causes the body to grow. Here the chick's body has arisen earlier and the volition for eating arises later. Thus the volition aids the bird's body to grow by post- nascence condition. In another simile, the rainwater that falls in subsequent years provides post-nascence condition for the vegetation growth in previous years. Citta is post-nascence-condition for the previously arisen rupas of the body which have been produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition and which have not fallen away yet. Citta supports and consolidates these rèpas. Just as is the feeling of hunger, cittas are a necessary condition for the preservation of this already arisen body. Metta, Rob M :-) 51373 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Conditions Part 12 - Repetition Condition (asevana-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, When we read a difficult passage, we may not understand it at first. But if we keep on reading it again and again, we usually understand it better. Also in learning by heart through constant repetition, the recitation becomes gradually easier and easier. Earlier reading aids later learning by means of repetition condition. Repetition-condition only applies to the javana cittas. The first javana citta conditions the second, which in turn conditions the third, etc. until the javana citta has repeated seven times. Metta, Rob M :-) 51376 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:43pm Subject: Conditions Part 13 - Kamma Condition (kamma-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, A well preserved seed, when placed in well watered ground, gives rise to an off-shoot. Similarly, wholesome or unwholesome kamma, with the support of avijja and tanha, gives rise to new offspring in the form of five aggregates of existence. In this example, the seed or kamma is the cause and the off-shoot or the five aggregates of existence is the conditioned thing. The cause conditions the result by way of kamma condition. Kamma condition is twofold: - Co-nascent kamma condition: Kamma is actually the cetasika cetana (volition). Cetana arises with each citta and directs the tasks of the associated dhammas (citta, cetasikas and rupas) by way of co- nascent kamma condition. - Asynchronous kamma condition: The kusala or akusala cetana which produces an appropriate result, conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. The pre-natal kamma conditions the arising of the five sense-organs, the fivefold sense-consciousness, and the other karma-produced nama and rupa in a later birth; these results are not vipaka. Metta, Rob M :-) 51377 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Conditions Part 14 - Kamma-result Condition (vipaka-paccaya) robmoult Hi All, A cool breeze makes a person in the cool shade feel even cooler. Similarly, vipaka citta and its cetasikas, which by nature arise peacefully and passively, mutually aid one another by kamma result condition to arise more peacefully and more leisurely. Vipaka citta and its accompanying cetasikas are the kamma-result of a past kamma. As they are caused to arise by the force of past kamma, they have no worry at all for their arising. When the time for their arising comes, they can arise peacefully and leisurely without any struggle. Vipaka citta and its accompanying cetasikas also condition one another by way of co-nascence-condition and by way of mutuality- condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 51378 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi Howard, We have a conversation on another thread that I have been meaning to catch up on. You said the Dhammapada quote I gave (about dosa never overcoming dosa) applied only in cases where other people's dosa was involved. You believe dosa lobha and mana can sometimes overcome dosa lobha and mana, and you cite the Bhikkhuni Sutta. Can you understand my strong opposition to your theory? To my mind, it denies there is an ultimate reality: it insists the world is relative, directionless and unconditioned. I like to think you are temporarily confusing ultimate reality with conventional reality - something we all do on a regular basis. Returning to the current thread, I think the same, temporary confusion led you to ask the following. -------------------------------- H: > Why, then, Ken, do you study, contemplate, and discuss Dhamma? --------------------------------- As an uninstructed worldling, I am motivated mainly by lobha dosa and moha. Even my Dhamma-related activities are predominately akusala. I suspect they include more kusala moments than do my other daily activities, but that is not saying much. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- H: > If that is not to alter the course of conditionality, is it just a matter of interest, like being interested in reading Playboy, Penthouse, Sports Illustrated, Shakespeare, or comic books? ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- Please, don't tell me my Dhamma study is motivated by wrong view (the idea of altering conditionality): that is a possibility I prefer to ignore! :-) I hope my akusala is mainly of a lesser kind (lobha without wrong view). Certainly, I don't openly deny the Buddha and his teaching, but wrong view is sure arise in less obvious ways. ------------------------------------------------------------- H: > And, just to ask, are you opposed to doing anything to change the course of conditionality in all matters? -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, wrong view is the greatest of all evils. ------------- H: > Do you never take any purposeful actions to alter the course of events, for example in terms of choice of job or project, or choosing whom and what to vote for, or where and what to eat, or choice of medication or even taking any medication, or caring for loved ones, or stepping out of the way of an oncoming truck? ------------- Conditioned volitional activity (kamma) is not always motivated by ignorance (much less so by ignorance with wrong view). But if I ever believe that the Buddha was wrong, and that I can control the workings of conditionality, please point out the error of my ways: you will be doing me the greatest possible favour. ------------------------- H: > And if one never chooses ... anything, not even to direct attention, how does one differ from a stone or stick? ----------------------- A stone or a stick is a concept. A being [that chooses or never chooses] is also a concept. Or are you asking, "How does citta without wrong view differ from rupa (which is also without wrong view)?" Citta is a mental phenomenon: it experiences an object. Rupa is a material phenomenon: it doesn't experience anything. There's a start. :-) Ken H 51379 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditional lbidd2 Leo: "How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice?" Hi Leo, "The Path of Purification" is a way of explaining the path in 7 stages: purification of virtue, purification of mind, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, purification by knowledge and vision. The third stage, purification by overcoming doubt, is concerned with meditation on cause and effect. This stage draws heavily on insights gained in the second stage, purification of view, which is concerned with understanding the difference between mentality and materiality (nama and rupa). Here is a quotation from "The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges" by Matara Sri ~Nanarama, BPS: MN 38. Just as, monks, dependent on whatever condition a fire burns, it comes to be reckoned in terms of that condition--(that is to say), a fire that burns dependent on logs is reckoned as a "log-fire", a fire that burns dependent on faggots is reckoned as a "faggot-fire"; a fire that burns dependent on grass is reckoned a "grass-fire"; a fire that burns dependent on cow-dung is reckoned as a "cow-dung-fire", a fire that burns dependent on rubbish is reckoned as a "rubbish-fire" --even so, monks, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent on which it arises. A consciousness arising dependent on eye and forms is reckoned as an "eye-consciousness"; a consciousness arising dependent on ear and sounds is reckoned as an "ear-consciousness"; a consciousness arising dependent on nose and smells is reckoned as a "nose-consciousness"; a consciousness arising dependent on tongue and flavours is reckoned as a "tongue-consciousness"; a consciousness arising dependent on body and tangibles is reckoned as a "body-consciousness"; a consciousness arising dependent on mind and ideas is reckoned as "mind-consciousness." Mahata.nhasamkhaya Sutta M.I,259ff. "Thus the meditator understands that eye-consciousness arises because of the eye and a visual object, and that owing to eye-contact there arise feeling, perception, volition and thought. This is a twofold understanding as it concerns thought and its cause, feeling and its cause, perception and its cause, and so on. At this stage it occurs to him that there is no "I" or "person" apart from the four categories: mind and its cause, and matter and its cause. "The rise and fall of the abdomen now appear to him as an agglomeration of the wind-element. He recognizes the earth-element through the touch sensation at the tip of the nose together with the water-element associated with it. By means of the tactile sensation of warmth and coolness, he recognizes the fire-element. Now that the mind is free from the hindrances, there is ample scope for wisdom. He understands that matter also arises due to a cause. If the meditator is wise enough, he will understand that this birth has been brought about by some action (kamma) of the past, and that it is the outcome of craving, ignorance and gasping. Whatever creature he sees is, for him, just another instance of the four categories: mind and its cause, and matter and its cause. "At this stage one has to step-up one's practice of mindfulness and full awareness. In every instance of a change of posture one should make a mental note of the action, as well as of the intention which impelled that action. The mental noting should always register the preceding thought as well: 1. 'intending to stand ... intending to stand' 2. 'standing ... standing'. " This method of making a mental note by way of cause and effect is helpful in understanding the relationship between the cause and the effect. The condition implied by the Knowledge of Discerning Cause and Condition is already found here. The meditator gradually comes to understand that thought is the result and that the object is its cause: "It is because there is a sound that a thought-of-hearing (an auditory consciousness) has arisen..." Larry: So your understanding of this email is conditioned by the visual consciousness of the email, which in turn is conditioned by the visible data of the email. Notice that sensory sensations are consciousnesses, not rupas. If you can understand this clearly you won't be able to identify with your physical body as me or mine. Matter isn't an experience. I have found that a good way to practice this is when something goes wrong break down the experience into cause and effect, particularly with regard to mentality and materiality (nama and rupa). In many cases a single rupa is a condition for an elaborate emotional drama. Larry 51380 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/11/05 7:49:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > We have a conversation on another thread that I have been meaning to > catch up on. You said the Dhammapada quote I gave (about dosa never > overcoming dosa) applied only in cases where other people's dosa was > involved. You believe dosa lobha and mana can sometimes overcome dosa > lobha and mana, and you cite the Bhikkhuni Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but that wasn't my main point at the time. My point then was merely that I didn't think that the sutta you were referring to pertained to uprooting anger in oneself, but in another person. So, the sutta didn't establish your point. That alone didn't imply that your point was incorrect. --------------------------------------------- Can you understand > > my strong opposition to your theory? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I simply think your opposition is unrealistic and your position wrong. --------------------------------------------- To my mind, it denies there is > > an ultimate reality: it insists the world is relative, directionless > and unconditioned. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. In any case, the point that I have been making is not so much that dosa can play a role in uprooting dosa in oneself. What I have been emphasizing is craving. We start with a defiled mind, and our desire for liberation is no exception - it is polluted by sense of self. That is the fact of the matter. But without desire for liberation, we'd be sunk. Actually, though, for that matter, even aversion - aversion to suffering, to grasping, to perpetual cognitive and emotional proliferation, aversion that leads to a craving to escape from the round of woe, constitutes a productive force. We start where we are, Ken, and not where we'd hope to be. ---------------------------------------------- > > I like to think you are temporarily confusing ultimate reality with > conventional reality - something we all do on a regular basis. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think I'm confused on this issue. ---------------------------------------------- > Returning to the current thread, I think the same, temporary > confusion led you to ask the following. > > -------------------------------- > H: >Why, then, Ken, do you study, contemplate, and discuss Dhamma? > --------------------------------- > > As an uninstructed worldling, I am motivated mainly by lobha dosa and > moha. Even my Dhamma-related activities are predominately akusala. I > suspect they include more kusala moments than do my other daily > activities, but that is not saying much. :-) ------------------------------------- Howard: Good! You are surely correct. But your partly akusala motivation, as mine, has nonetheless led to studying the Dhamma! ------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------- > H: >If that is not to alter the course of conditionality, is it just > a matter of interest, like being interested in reading Playboy, > Penthouse, Sports Illustrated, Shakespeare, or comic books? ;-) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Please, don't tell me my Dhamma study is motivated by wrong view (the > idea of altering conditionality): that is a possibility I prefer to > ignore! :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You're missing my point, Ken. If the action is motivated merely by whatever happens to interest one, and not by the intention to change conditions, then one will be driven purely by whatever one's likes and dislikes happen to be, and it is a matter of luck whether what we like is useful or harmful. Unless one purposely takes steps to "do the right thing", then one will be driven by random desire. In any case, is there no desire involved in your studying the Dhamma?? I contend that you study the Dhamma not just because it interests you, but because you intend that by doing so you will *change* yourself. I contend that you study the Dhamma as a goal-directed activity! --------------------------------------------------------- > > I hope my akusala is mainly of a lesser kind (lobha without wrong > view). Certainly, I don't openly deny the Buddha and his teaching, > but wrong view is sure arise in less obvious ways. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > H: >And, just to ask, are you opposed to doing anything to change > the course of conditionality in all matters? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, wrong view is the greatest of all evils. > > ------------- > H: >Do you never take any purposeful actions > to alter the course of events, for example in terms of choice of job > or project, or choosing whom and what to vote for, or where and what > to eat, or choice of medication or even taking any medication, or > caring for loved ones, or stepping out of the way of an oncoming > truck? > ------------- > > Conditioned volitional activity (kamma) is not always motivated by > ignorance (much less so by ignorance with wrong view). But if I ever > believe that the Buddha was wrong, and that I can control the > workings of conditionality, please point out the error of my ways: > you will be doing me the greatest possible favour. ------------------------------------- Howard: You ignored my question. ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------- > H: >And if one never chooses ... > anything, not even to direct attention, how does one differ from a > stone or stick? > ----------------------- > > A stone or a stick is a concept. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken, instead of replying to what I asked, you trotted out dogma, a tired old horse. ------------------------------------------ A being [that chooses or never > > chooses] is also a concept. Or are you asking, "How does citta > without wrong view differ from rupa (which is also without wrong > view)?" ------------------------------------------- Howard: I have frequently noticed that when it becomes uncomfortable to reply to some questions, some folks just start lecturing on paramatta dhammas vs pa~n~natti as a mode of escape. You are doing that here. ---------------------------------------- > > Citta is a mental phenomenon: it experiences an object. Rupa is a > material phenomenon: it doesn't experience anything. There's a > start. :-) --------------------------------------- Howard: This is like reading a textbook, Ken. But it doesn't constitute conversation. --------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ===================== With metta, Howard 51381 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:27pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi RobM, You wrote: ------------------- > Ken, you differentiate between jhana and satipatthana according to > type of object taken (concepts vs. conditioned dhammas). This is not > my understanding. > > Jhana can definitely take conditioned dhammas as objects (earth > kasina, fire kasina, etc.). -------------------- Yes, I do differentiate according to type of object, and also according to type of panna. Jhana relies on knowing kusala concepts from akusala concepts. (The panna of jhana is not the panna of satipatthana or the NEP, of course, and that adds to the difficulty of these discussions.) Kasinas are concepts. All jhana arammana (with two specific exceptions) are concepts. Each of the first four jhanas (the rupa jhanas) takes a kasina or some other concept as its object. So too do the fifth and seventh jhanas (first and third arupa-jhanas). But the second arupa-jhana takes the first arupa jhana as its object, and the fourth arupa-jhana takes the third arupa-jhana as its object. Htoo taught me that. I will admit, however, that I tend to get it round the wrong way, so don't bet your house on it. :-) ---------------- RM: > > Satipatthana can also take concepts as > object (sitting, Four Noble Truths, etc.). ---------------- We need to revise our definitions. Are you aware of the classifications, pariyatti patipatti and pativedha? Into which classification(s) would you put satipatthana? Is the concept of sitting fundamentally different from rupa? Does sitting have sabhava (its own nature)? Can mindfulness of sitting (or of any other concept) reveal the three basic characteristics? The four noble truths can be understood as a concept. They can also be understood as dukkha, tanha, Nibbana and Magga-citta. Panna with concept as object is pariyatti: panna with dhamma (or characteristic) as object is patipatti. (And it is sometimes pativedha, I think). ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My understanding is that the key difference between jhana and insight > is how mindfulness is used. It is my understanding that in jhanas, > one uses mindfulness to enhance concentration (which is why it makes > sense to sit in a stable posture). In insight, one uses mindfulness > to penetrate the three characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). ------------------------------------------------------------------ By mindfulness do you mean sati? I don't think I have ever heard (before now) that sati can perform those functions. -------------------------- > > Jhana cannot know Nibbana, so there can be no enlightenment in the > > same moment as there is jhana. Unless, of course, there is such a > > thing as supramundane jhana. > > ===== > > Ken, I have been waiting a long time to write these words... "We > agree 100%!!!"... at least on this point :-) ----------------------------- Yippee! Ken H PS: About "supramundane jhana:" can that be a term for Magga-citta? 51382 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:20pm Subject: The value of studying conditions ( was Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas) philofillet Hi Leo (and note to all at the end) > > I am not sure what you are trying to acheive in here by putting all > that together in a certain order. I guess i miss a point of you > vision. My bad, Leo. I didn't make it clear enough that UP means "Useful Posts" which is just a file (see Files) in which the moderators have gathered what they consider to be very clear and useful posts. There are only links to the message numbers, without any indication of the content of each post, so the "rough index" I posted was just to give me (and anyone else) a slightly better idea of what was contained in the UPs. Just a little time-saver. > When I consider that, I like to brake it up to how one relate to > other and affect other and what all that can do for me. Maybe it is > my way, but I like to ask "what's in it for me?" Maybe I am too > practical. I do not understand why do I need to know a list of items > like that, because I would never remember that, unless I see > something in that. > Please let me know As for knowing about these conditions in the only way we are now capable - a very shallow, intellectual way - I think it helps us get to the whole point of the Buddha's teaching - detachment. We won't understand detachment directly, not for a long, long time, but having an intellectual understanding that there is no self that can control the arising and falling of mental states is helpful. For example, we can look at your questions "what's in it for me?" and say to beware, because it shows that perhaps Leo is clinging to an excessive interest in Leo and the benefits for Leo instead of understanding that, ultimately, there will have to be understandiing that there is no Leo, only khandas, mental and physical factors rising and falling in a conditioned way. So understanding conditions, that there *are* conditions, helps us get to the whole point of the Buddha's teaching. From then, the gradual development of deeper and more direct understanding of them will arise. You were asking about conditions and meditation. I think we can understand that anything we have ever done in life and everything we are doing now and everything we will ever do is due to conditions. Think of your first breath as an infant. You didn't think "wow, that was a great breath. It was very effective for maintaining my life - I think I will do it again." The second breath arose conditioned by the first breath. The same goes for the first step you took. The same goes for the first time you understood that if you smiled, your mother would smile back. And so on and so on and so on through life. And the same applies to your meditation. For some reason or other, you have decided that you want to meditate. It could be conditioned by right understanding of the way meditation is taught in the suttas. It might be because you want to be calm and peaceful. It might be because you think meditaion seems cool, that you want to be a wise man. It's difficult to know what is conditioning is to do what. In a single action, multiple conditions are at work in a way that only the Buddha fully penetrated and understood. And even when the Buddha demonstrated the purest ever resolve to meditate, when he sat under the tree and said something like "I will not get up from this tree until I have achieved enlightenment even if my bones turn to dust" (or something like that, roughly speaking) he was doing it motivated by conditions, the condition being a very pure wholesome zeal (chanda) that we can only begin to imagine. Everything we do is conditioned. It seems very obvious to me. How could it not be conditioned unless we believed in the lasting, permanent self/soul that other religions believe in. It seems that many people see this truth of conditions to be pessimistic or discouraging. They seem to think that it means we are passively sitting and waiting for something to happen. They misunderstand. Life is chock-full of opportunities to refrain from unwholesomeness (akusala) and choose wholesomeness (kusala.) But if we try to do so without understanding that all is anatta (not self) and all is arising due to conditions, we are missing the precious opportunity to live our human life in the light of the Buddha's teaching. I hope that is helpful. At this moment conditions are arising that make me send you a wish for very fruitful meditation. Phil p.s note to all - in the light of Rob M's excellent series on the paccayas I think I will just read on them for awhile and put my own series on hold until some day when it seems that conditions need to be brought back to the forefront on the board. Thanks Rob. Great stuff. 51383 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I corvus121 Hi Rob M Thanks for your reply. You've asked a few more questions, so I'll snip to them and see what happens. Please understand that, at this point in time, I am raising issues of methodology and not substance (for which, as I said before, I have no answers). I do think it is critical to adopt an appropriate framework for contemplation because a faulty one will lead nowhere. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: AT: Don't get me wrong. I know you will reply with a string of other > > reasons why you take Jhana to be a core teaching. > > ===== > RM: Just one point... because they are part of the Noble Eightfold Path, > they are a key teaching. AT: I'll jump in here, Rob. You said before that Jhana is defined as Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. But is it? Could your methodology here be too rigid? I acknowledge your sutta references but question whether the suttas were ever meant to be interpreted like statutes where definitions can be looked up. Isn't it at least possible that the suttas were recited shorthand for easy memorisation and in the knowledge that (hopefully) there would always be bhikkhus around to hand down the original details, fill in gaps, and necessary background? (Perhaps like the details discussed in the jhana/samadhi article kindly posted by Hal). You point out the historian's perspective that, in all the schools, the suttas came down to us very alike, whereas the Abhidhamma and commentaries didn't. But it doesn't follow that they *all* got it wrong and that they *all* made these things up brand-new hundreds of years after the Buddha. Furthermore (as you hinted at in a previous post), if one is to follow the historian's perspective in discounting Abhidhammas and commentaries, one must logically do the same for the suttas - divide them up between "early" and "later" and "added to" or whatever - based on linguistic analysis (a field of study far from being free of controversy, I might add). To stop rambling here, I'll sum up by saying that what seems perfectly clear to you (Jhana = RC of NEP) isn't so clearcut to me. And the difference is in our methodologies, I think. AT: I also suspect you > > reject any standard view that liberation can be attained by dry > > insight, because no sutta reference can be found to support it. > > ===== RM: I have no reason to reject dry insight (arahants without jhanas) - I > think that Bhikkhu Bodhi did find Sutta references to support this. AT: Could you please remind me again - if Jhanas are Right Concentration in the NEP, how can there be arahants without jhanas? >AT: That's > > another area where I have serious reservations about your basic > > premises - treating the suttas like strict Christians treat the > Bible > > makes me nervous. Maybe - just maybe - some of the commentaries > that > > have come down to us were sincere and good attempts at preserving > the > > true Dhamma by filling in gaps in the suttas or ironing out > possible > > misconceptions. In which case, Rob, your methodology (as studious > as > > it appears to us academic westerners) shuts you out of the real > game. > > ===== > RM: Please elaborate... I want to understand better. AT: I hope my comments above elaborate enough. The suttas are not the sacrosanct word of some god or God. They are an attempt by some ariyans and a lot of worldlings to preserve the teachings of Buddha Gotama for as long as possible before inevitable decay. They are subject to the limitations of oral transmission, of written language and of translation between languages. We can't talk Dhamma like a strict Christian might - by reading out a passage from the Bible and expecting immediate obedience lest an accusation of heresy be made. Very few people on Dhamma discussion lists do that, I know, and least of all you, Rob. But I think we all have to bear in mind that we are in a pickle - born so distant from the age of Buddha Gotama after multiple splits in the Sangha. To get to the heart of the Dhamma now, we're going to need to be intellectually flexible and not stray too far from the central tenets - especially those that explain the reality hidden from us by our ignorance. I don't think we can achieve this by sticking to one basket and relying on our own knowledge to interpret it correctly. RM: Sorry, I missed the "controversial" part of your opinion. Please > repeat this portion. AT: By missing it, you affirmed that it was never there. (-: I want to join Phil in thanking you for your conditionality posts. Great reading, Rob. Best wishes Andrew T 51384 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:46pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I seisen_au Heya Ken H, Rob M. and All, > Ken H > > PS: About "supramundane jhana:" can that be a term for Magga-citta? Yes. Here is one example from the Vibhanga, Analysis of the Path factors, Analysis According to Abhidhamma(p310): Therein what is the Eight Constituent Path? Herein at the time when a Bhikkhu develops supramundane jhana tending to release, dispersive of continuing rebirth and death; he, for the abandoning of wrong view, for the entering of the first stage, aloof from sense pleasures attains and dwells in the first jhana that is hard practice and knowledge slowly acquired; at that time there is the Eight Constituent Path; Right View>>Right Concentration. Steve 51385 From: "bodhi2500" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:59pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I seisen_au Hi Rob M, All Below is the sutta you were looking for. Rob M. wrote: > Opinion: If it is "here and now" then it is "constant", isn't it? Is > there any other time period other than the "here and now"? > Doesn't "here and now" cover everything? THere is a Sutta (wish that > I could find the reference to move this to the "fact" column :-) ) > which talks about a prisoner carying a pot of oil on his head. Sedaka Sutta Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.20 I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sumbhas. Now there is a Sumbhan town named Sedaka. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "Suppose, monks, that a large crowd of people comes thronging together, saying, 'The beauty queen! The beauty queen!' And suppose that the beauty queen is highly accomplished at singing & dancing, so that an even greater crowd comes thronging, saying, 'The beauty queen is singing! The beauty queen is dancing!' Then a man comes along, desiring life & shrinking from death, desiring pleasure & abhorring pain. They say to him, 'Now look here, mister. You must take this bowl filled to the brim with oil and carry it on your head in between the great crowd & the beauty queen. A man with a raised sword will follow right behind you, and wherever you spill even a drop of oil, right there will he cut off your head.' Now what do you think, monks: Will that man, not paying attention to the bowl of oil, let himself get distracted outside?" "No, lord." "I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, make it our vehicle, make it our home site. We will practice it, acquaint ourselves well with it, and set about it properly.' That is how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-020.html Steve 51386 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 0:37am Subject: The value of studying conditions ( was Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas) bardosein Hi Leo, Phil, Larry & all, In her outline of the 24 conditions, Nina writes: The "Patthåna" helps us to have more understanding of the truth of non-self. It thereby encourages us to develop the eightfold Path, to develop direct understanding of all realities which appear through the five sense-doors and through the mind-door. Theoretical knowledge of conditions is not the purpose of the "Patthåna". Through mere intellectual understanding conditions cannot be thoroughly grasped. When understanding of nåma, mental phenomena, and rúpa, physical phenomena, has been developed to the degree of the second stage of insight 6, there will be direct understanding of the conditionality of realities. When conditions are understood more clearly, there will be less clinging to a self who could control awareness of nåma and rúpa. Thus, the "Patthåna" can help us to follow the right practice. It is above all the right practice of the eightfold Path that can promote the survival of the Buddha's teachings. (p. 3) --------------------------------------------------------------- Hal: The Patthana is like a intricate map covering a vast terrain, but the territory it refers to cannot be assessed by the map. Discursive knowledge (understanding) is not intuitive knowledge (understanding). As Nina points out, the patthana cannot be grasped through "mere intellectual understanding"; rather it must be realized by traversing the terrain itself (_patipatti_). In approaching the Patthana and its elaborate architectonic, we must remember this limitation and be wary of overestimating its value for _pativehda_. When Nina says the Patthana helps us have more understanding of non- self, she is speaking of the overcoming of wrong concepts and beliefs at the level of discursive thought. Having wrong beliefs and conceptual views is like having the wrong map in our hands. Without the right map, we won't know the right place to begin the journey (_patipatti_)and instead may wander in vain without every finding our way. Admittedly, it may be a matter of debate, just how detailed our map needs to be to achieve the second stage of insight; but one surely does not need to know the Patthana. On the other hand, if through studying it we are encouraged to follow right practice, then as Nina says, our efforts "can promote the survival of the Buddha's teachings." Hal ____________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 51387 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 0:42am Subject: The value of studying conditions ( was Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas) bardosein Correction: Hal: The Patthana is like a intricate map covering a vast terrain, but the territory it refers to cannot be assessed by the map. Discursive knowledge (understanding) is not intuitive knowledge (understanding). The word "assessed" should read "accessed" (Excuse. I'll try to check my messages a little more carefully before posting them) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Leo, Phil, Larry & all, > > In her outline of the 24 conditions, Nina writes: > > The "Patthåna" helps us to have more understanding of the truth of > non-self. It thereby encourages us to develop the eightfold Path, to > develop direct understanding of all realities which appear through > the five sense-doors and through the mind-door. Theoretical knowledge > of conditions is not the purpose of the "Patthåna". Through mere > intellectual understanding conditions cannot be thoroughly grasped. > When understanding of nåma, mental phenomena, and rúpa, physical > phenomena, has been developed to the degree of the second stage of > insight 6, there will be direct understanding of the conditionality > of realities. When conditions are understood more clearly, there will > be less clinging to a self who could control awareness of nåma and > rúpa. Thus, the "Patthåna" can help us to follow the right practice. > It is above all the right practice of the eightfold Path that can > promote the survival of the Buddha's teachings. (p. 3) > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Hal: The Patthana is like a intricate map covering a vast terrain, > but the territory it refers to cannot be assessed by the map. > Discursive knowledge (understanding) is not intuitive knowledge > (understanding). As Nina points out, the patthana cannot be grasped > through "mere intellectual understanding"; rather it must be realized > by traversing the terrain itself (_patipatti_). In approaching the > Patthana and its elaborate architectonic, we must remember this > limitation and be wary of overestimating its value for _pativehda_. > > When Nina says the Patthana helps us have more understanding of non- > self, she is speaking of the overcoming of wrong concepts and beliefs > at the level of discursive thought. Having wrong beliefs and > conceptual views is like having the wrong map in our hands. Without > the right map, we won't know the right place to begin the journey > (_patipatti_)and instead may wander in vain without every finding our > way. Admittedly, it may be a matter of debate, just how detailed our > map needs to be to achieve the second stage of insight; but one > surely does not need to know the Patthana. On the other hand, if > through studying it we are encouraged to follow right practice, then > as Nina says, our efforts "can promote the survival of the Buddha's > teachings." > > Hal > > ____________________________________________________ > "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot > 51388 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:58pm Subject: The 4 Focuses! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Leo: _Always ReDirect to & ever Reflect upon this:_ 1: Body is only a transient form! 2: Feeling is only an assigned short reaction! 3: Mind is only a banal set of shifting moods! 4: Phenomena are only momentary mental states! Write it up and keep in pocket & so too in mind! Keep on keeping on since this verily is the Way! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 51389 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:05pm Subject: Kamma leading to Wealth or Poverty !?! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which Intentional Actions (Kamma) influence Wealth? A student once asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why some human beings are Wealthy, while others are quite Poor ? The Blessed Buddha then explained: Here, student, some man or woman does never give any food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing nor lamps to any recluses or priests! Because of intending and performing such action, at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is reborn in a bad state of deprived difficulty, in a wretched destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells... But if such one at the breakup of the body, right after death, is not reborn in an state of deprivation, a painful destination, the purgatory, or in the hells, but instead comes back to the human state, then wherever such one is reborn, such one is poor, unfortunate, poverty-stricken, and needy #! This is the way, student, that leads to poverty, namely, not giving any food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing nor lamps to neither any recluses nor any priests...!!! But here, student, some man or woman does indeed give both food, drink, clothes, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing and lamps to several recluses and priests! Because of intending & performing such beneficial action, at breakup of the body, after death, such one reappears in a pleasurable and happy destination, even in one of the many divine dimensions! But if at the breakup of the body, right after death, such one is not reborn in a happy destination, in the heavenly worlds, but instead comes back to a human state, then wherever such one reappears, such one is quite wealthy and rich %! This is the way, student, that leads to being rich & wealthy, namely, giving of food drink clothing, transportation, flowers, incense, medicine, beds, housing and lamps to recluses and priests...!!! #: Such one escapes hell, because the evil kamma is modified by past good action! %: Such one miss heaven, because the good kamma is modified by past evil action! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The short speech on Action. MN 135 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn135a.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51390 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidana sutta, theory/practice leoaive Hi I see Buddha as a person that was living under the tree or in some other place and there is a lot of life in that. That is how I had my childhood, among many trees and forest and a lot on a street. And beleive it or not I was happy with that factor. In regards to swimming: I see nothing wrong with that, because it is good training and it is better then to be a couch potato and have some weight and other problems. Buddha was walking a lot, so I guess it is ok to walk or swim. I am not a monk, why it should be a some kind of restriction for me in that? I did not take rules of not-leaving robes......... Coming back, I see actually more life in swimming, then watching some TV shows, eating, reading and sleeping. In any case Buddha did not say you need to be a book worm. I guess it should be a balance. He said that his teaching is without dead ends.If i swim one hour or so, what bad that can do? In regards to friends: good friend will help in difficult moment, I do not have many friends................ I guess if I practice 5 or 8 precepts, the rest is up to me. With metta Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi KenH, ... > M: From the Mahasatipattana sutta: "And how does a monk remain > focused on the body in & of itself? > > [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the > wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits > down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting > mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always > mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. > > I'm sorry, but this is in the sutta in plain English ..sorry Pali! > If this isnt formal meditation.... > > But I am interested in knowing why you seem to think this is not > acurate/workable. > > KH:Speaking for myself, the more I understand the original texts, > the > > more certain I am of a way that does not involve formal practice. > > M: I'm sure there are many ways of doing this, of varying degrees of > efficiency. I do not think I know enough about every method in > existence to say that something cannot work. But what do you feel > about the numerous times sitting meditation has been described in > the suttas? I'm curious if you feel that they are incorrect, or > simply feel they are inefficient. I dont think there is even one > serious meditation teacher in the whole world who will limit the > practice to only sitting mditation. The practice is constant. > > Hope you are well, > metta > > Matheesha ... 51391 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:58pm Subject: The value of studying conditions ( was Re: rough index to UPs on paccayas) leoaive Hi Phil I guess what you are saying is your view. My view on all that is different. I even beleive that Buddha condition was to find a way for himself and not for becoming a teacher (I do not think he had such a goal: to teach others, originally), but he was looking for a way to find the path. From the point "what's in it for me?" he found a way and lived by it, why I should listen you or someone else and do not look what's in it for me? I am not a robot without mind and uncapable of making my analysis. Since I am capable of making analysis, I will look for "what's in it for me?" I am not saying you should follow my way. I guess I am a different kind.... Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Leo (and note to all at the end) ... > As for knowing about these conditions in the only way we are now > capable - a very shallow, intellectual way - I think it helps us get > to the whole point of the Buddha's teaching - detachment. We won't > understand detachment directly, not for a long, long time, but > having an intellectual understanding that there is no self that can > control the arising and falling of mental states is helpful. For > example, we can look at your questions "what's in it for me?" and > say to beware, because it shows that perhaps Leo is clinging to an > excessive interest in Leo and the benefits for Leo instead of > understanding that, ultimately, there will have to be understandiing > that there is no Leo, only khandas, mental and physical factors > rising and falling in a conditioned way. So understanding > conditions, that there *are* conditions, helps us get to the whole > point of the Buddha's teaching. From then, the gradual development > of deeper and more direct understanding of them will arise. ... 51392 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditional leoaive Hi Larry I was reading that Visudhimagga was made by some indian scolar, where he took some parts from suttas and made his book. If that is really a case, I do want to consider that book to rely on, because it is something like a tread with a star in that and I appreciate cutting of suttas, intentionally or unintentionally. It is too confusing, short and unclear. Can you give me some other references. I really appreciate your honest effort. With metta! Sincerely Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Leo: "How would you put together paccayas and meditation practice?" > > Hi Leo, > > "The Path of Purification" is a way of explaining the path in 7 stages: ... 51393 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:55am Subject: e-Card 2 (was, Re: Pilgrimage eCard) jonoabb Hi Tep and All Thanks for your good wishes, Tep. Would be happy to upload some pictures, but the problem is verryy slooow connection speeds, and even moving from page to page involves a considerable wait. So pictures will have to wait until I find a broadband connection, with hardware that will accept my USB key (so far no luck). We are now in the very ancient city of Benares (Varanasi in the texts). Thankfully, the trip here was shorter than expected, within 8 hours, so we are not as wiped as we feared. Today is the last day of a Hindu festival, and it is virtually impossible to travel around in Benares, so our planned trip to the stupa at Sarnath (at Issipatthana, the Deer Park, site of the first sermon) has been postponed to tomorrow. This means tomorrow is going to be a very busy day, starting with a 4:00 am visit to the Ganges river. This morning some of us opted out of a visit to the local museum to have some dhamma discussion with A. Sujin. The usual topics were covered ... . Have a lot of posts to download and read with Sarah (our download yesterday in Bodh Gaya could not be read owning to a virus picked up on the floppy disc from the internet cafe; hoping for better luck today). Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - > > Your pilgrimage is very interesting and the places in your list have > been in my dream for a long time. Perhaps, one day I, too, may be > visiting these sites of historical importance and spiritual uplifting. > > I have a thought. It might be a good idea to upload the pictures of these > sites to DSG Pictures Files for all members to see. > > I hope you and everyone in your group stay clear from any troubles > (that might harm your robotic well-beings) while you are traveling, and > come back home safely. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ======= 51394 From: "khcheah33" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Coma - fruit of kamma? khcheah33 Hi Sarah, Nina, RobM, RobK, Htoo, & all dhamma friends, A blink of the eye & I 'was away' for about 8~9 days. Been busy helping to set up the Secretariat operation for the 9th Sakyadhita International Buddhist Women Conference 2006 in Kuala Lumpur & preparation for the Press News Conference today, 12th-Oct-05 at the Asoka Hall, Buddhist Maha Vihara, Kuala Lumpur. At the home scene, nothing seems to be going right??? (care to read more at the end?)... ------------------------------------- > >In post #50828 Nina wrote : >Hi Kh Cheah, >Coma state is a medical term, and his has to do with conventional > realities. >Kamma and vipaaka concerns cause and effect in the ultimate sense, > this is a field, different from medical science. >...... >Medical science does not know about cittas. It cannot explain > about ultimate realities. >...... >There are other factors that make it favorable for akusala kamma > or kusala kamma to produce result at a certain moment. >We cannot find out whether it is supportive kamma or counteractive > kamma operating at a certain time, this is beyond us. > ***** >Nina. ===== Thank you Nina highlighting the above. I do agreed with you that at times there are happenings which will be beyond us, no point cracking our heads to reason out-- and it's best left to the medical experts. During the last weekend, it was brought to my attention that the question which I posted was exactly an examination question which came out in the 2003 & 2004 Senior stage MBE Dhamma Examination (set by MBES Penang) ~ & a quick search showed it's true. This very question was put before 2 venerables at our Maha Vihara, and the devotees was told to leave it at that; do not speculate anything on the subject which is too general and subjective. Before it slip my mind, the MoliyaSivaka sutta SN XXXVI.21 is indeed a good reading too. Thank you once again, Nina. ------------------------------------- In post #50862"robmoult" wrote : >Hi KH, >...... >KH, I believe that you intend to review this subject with members >of your Abhidhamma study group. For that reason, I took a purely >Abhidhamma view on the subject. There is a lot of meat here for >discussion :-) Please let me know if you or your group have any >questions. > >Earlier this year, I dedicated an entire Sunday morning class at >the Vihara to this subject as we discussed the tsunami and kamma. > Metta, > Rob M :-) ===== RobM, Thank you for taking the trouble in going to great length pointing out the different cittas/cetasikas that may arise respectively. My discussion group was most happy to receive the hardcopy printouts as additional notes. As we are at present re-reading Ch01~06 of BB-CMA, we are really thankful on your offer to help out when there are further queries to bring up. On behalf of the group, I like to say Sadhu(3x). BTW, RobM, yr post to Sarah/Ven Bodhi with regards the BB-CMA reprint, "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15720" I like to copy Sarah's words "Good timing, RobM". I'm printing out hardcopies of the "Corrections" for handouts. Many thanks here. ------------------------------------- Hi Rob K, As RobM has mentioned, I do look forward to read your posts 'cos you write very well & able to present your points across and some are really inspiring and are 'food for thought'. Your Dhammapada example came at the right moment. I was jerked up again ~ as I've been handing out printouts of selected dhammapada verses (pali/english) with supporting stories to my students, yet I myself overlook that there are good examples which are good materials for my own reading! 'Kudos' to you for this. :-) In post #50863 "rjkjp1" >Dear RobM, >. . . Perhaps you can explain these examples from the Dhammapada: > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm > IX (11) The Story of Three Groups of Persons > >Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > >Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in >the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where >one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed."" > Robertk ------------------------------------- >> "sarah abbott" wrote: > Hi KH, > ...... > S: I really wish your colleague a good recovery. Another friend > here asked me about a coma situation before. This is what I wrote: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30592 === Thanks for your concern & your help too, Sarah. Have printed out post #30592, read through and found it to be quite informative. And on advice of the venerables at our Vihara here (KL),I won't be making any further comments on this topic. ======== My apologies to every dsg friends for being unable to write in so often, as I figure I may have personal time-control problem. :-) :-) Will try to follow closely most of the posts though. With Metta, KH Cheah 51395 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:07am Subject: Re: Bodhgaya jonoabb Hi Leo It's true that the places are special, very special, but that does not mean that one's normal tendencies are suspended for the duration of the visit! So while there may be moments of kusala conditioned by the special nature of the experience, these moments are not sustained. No point in pretending otherwise ;-)) Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > > Hi! > > Interesting observation about lobha for a place. > Buddha said to walk in places where they walked, is good. I would > think it is ok and even more then that. But lobha to place and tree > would bring state of feeling as dear and loosing would be suffering. > That would not be Buddha teaching. It is more like subject used for > your goal, that is it (that is how i see it). I would think it would > be the same interesting to walk in different groves and parks and > even some peaks, where elders walked, meditated and talked about > Dhamma. To say that those places have less value would be improper. > I am not sure if there is a such vacational trip, but it would be a > great to see all that. In addition to that it would be great to see > places where was first sermon and where they all collected the food. > > > With metta > Leo 51396 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:13am Subject: Fear of Losing Partner (Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I) buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Ken H. and all), Howard, I found your responses to Ken H. very skillful. Your meditation must be reaping great benefit as I can see (sense?) increased equanimity. You inspire me to practice more, which I haven't been doing as much as I should. Maybe if I did practice more my posts would be more skillful. But, I have something to mention. Something rather personal, but I guess not too much so. Remember when you were talking about the fear you experienced when you had momentarily lost yourself? And how we can all experience that fear? I have that also- but I also have another issue: I am sometimes afraid of disappointing and losing my partner. You see, I realize that the more insight I achieve the less and less I will be interested in sex and romantic relationships. I have experienced this many times in the past during meditation and it always made me pull back a bit (due to my relationship at the time). Actually, this is such a concern of mine that I had a small talk with my partner about it yesterday. I told him that if I got back to meditating seriously, which he encourages me to do, I might get to the point when I no longer want to have sex or be romantic with him. In other words, our relationship would be over. He didn't like the sound of that but he didn't have much to say in response. After all, it isn't guaranteed that that would happen. Howard, I know that you are married so I wonder if this situation has presented itself with you and your wife. I also wonder about Jon and Sarah and other married or committed couples in this group. Are they sometimes afraid to practice for fear of losing the relationship and/or disappointing their partner? You don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable; I know that this is a rather personal issue. But it is something I face so I thought I would bring it up. Metta, James 51397 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:33am Subject: A feverish e-card from Varanasi sarahprocter... Hi All, A touch of fever, so this may be another of those nonsense malaria-induced KISS posts Phil referred to.... A morning discussion here in Varanasi/Benares covering topics from 'what exactly is sati', thr' the complexities of paticca samuppada and other details (jhana and all too:)) and ending with the relating of the details of cittas with life outside, the beggars and being in India... Oh the bliss of a keyboard here with only a few layers of relatively clean grime....the one in Bodh Gaya (several mins before each click and a virus on the downloaded floppy to boot)was an engineeering masterpiece...I was so fascinated at how anything could work at all in the little grimy hut that it was hard to follow the messages when the click got through.... Now slowly getting up-to-date....sharing with Nina en route....very happy to hear you're all going strong on conditions and Larry is recommending downloading and memorising her book in advance:-))lol (and thx so much, Larry for your nice welcome to Leo and help - Leo, glad to see you on board). Highlights to date - the beautiful climb to Vulture's Peak, the Buddha's kuti at the top, the descent in a thunder storm (no one equipped), a lovely little discussion sitting on the grass in the grounds at Nalanda...always back to NOW..... I felt I was being tossed around by the worldly conditions - gain and loss and so on...lots of tribulations on a trip like this, but nearly all in the mind....moments of good and bad vipaka are just such brief moments of seeing, hearing and so on....And then, a little sanity as I sat with Jon at the foot of the Bo tree....reflecting on how insignificant and unimportnat these worldly conditions are....and for the first time, a little understanding of what it means to really offer forgiveness to the Triple Gem....a kind of respect....when we're so foolishly wrapped up in our kilesa, our thoughts about ME from morning to nite, there's no respect at all. How different the much rarer times of consideration for others, the metta and compassion are...and calm with such kusala moments. Azita read a nice sutta from AN this morning and asked a question about the reference to attachment to restlessness mentioned in it. Surely there's no attachment to restlessness? But whenever there's lobha, dosa or moha, there's restlessness and we are addicted to it....however much we talk about calm. Tomorrow will be a very special day in Sarnath....goosebumps at the anticipation (mostly lobha and maybe a little kusala chanda (interest). Besides paying respects and later the evening 'wientien'(circling around with candles)which we do at all the holy places, we'll also be offering dana again to 120 monks from different traditions, Lodewijk will give a speech and in the afternoon there will be a special ceremony with the relics which are opened out of the vault specially and placed on each of our heads. Also, the chanting of the Dhammacakkapavattana sutta in Pali, the wheel of truth set rolling in this special place.... That's the story- anything can happen and as Azita wrote, still just visible object and other paramattha dhammas whether here or in the surf. And yes, KenH and Htoo, sitting here in this hot, dusty spot, I'm having a little fantasy about the waves across the road from KenH's house.....all these dreams and stories because of sanna marking and remembering at each moment, each experience. Tep and all - K.Sujin plans another such trip in two years time...Nina and Lodewijk keep saying this will be their last (conditions so difficult), but I'm sure they'll be signing up again....if anyone has any interest, let me or someone know and get your name on the list quickly...they fill up very early. They are tough and expensive, but such an opportunity.. Tomorrow is a long day (an early trip to the Ganges too for some) and it will be followed by several long bus trip days, remoter holy places with probably no internet. So thanks to all for running the list so beautifully in our absence and especially for all the courtesy and respect for each other.....a real treat to look in when we can. Apologies for any delirium.... I need to get back to some hot liquids, so no time to check. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, I was working on the bus yesterday at some editing of a recording from Bkk between the bumps and assure you bickering happens everywhere, even at the Foundation:)) Btw, Betty kindly raised yr qus and has promised to report back. 51398 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:38am Subject: Perfections sarahprocter... Hi Tom W, A shame you and Bev had to cancel....Maeve is especially sorry and we are too. Nina said to say Perfections should all be on Zolag. (Maybe contact Alan W if not). Sorry, unable to help further. Pls post more! Also, Bev Metta, Sarah p.s thx for your help in advance with our botched recording in Bkk 51399 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:41am Subject: BB's "The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas" robmoult Hi All, Here is the complete text by Bhikkhu Bodhi (originally posted by Sarah in 20 installments): Introduction ============ The Paali Nikaayas leave no doubt of the important role the jhaanas play in the structure of the Buddhist path. In such texts as the Saamannaphala Sutta (DN No. 2), the Cuu.lahatthipadopama Sutta (MN No. 27), and many others on the "gradual training" (anupubbasikkhaa) of the Buddhist monk, the Buddha invariably introduces the jhaanas to exemplify the training in concentration. When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, we read, he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the "five hindrances." When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhaanas, described by a stock formula repeated countless times in the Nikaayas: Here, bhikkhus, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhaana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhaana of which the noble ones declare: `He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and displeasure, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhaana, which is neither painful nor pleasant and includes the purification of mindfulness by equanimity.[1] In Theravada Buddhist circles during the past few decades a debate has repeatedly erupted over the question whether or not jhaana is necessary to attain the "paths and fruits," that is, the four graded stages of enlightenment. The debate has been sparked off by the rise to prominence of the various systems of insight meditation that have become popular both in Asia and the West, especially among lay Buddhists. Those who advocate such systems of meditation contend that the paths and fruits can be attained by developing insight (vipassanaa) without a foundation of jhaana. This method is called the vehicle of bare insight (suddhavipassanaa), and those who practise in this mode are known as "dry insighters" (sukkha- vipassaka) because their practice of insight has not been "moistened" by prior attainment of the jhaanas. Apparently, this system finds support from the Visuddhimagga and the Paali Commentaries, though it is not given a very prominent place in the commentarial treatment of the path, which usually follows the canonical model in placing the jhaanas before the development of insight.[2] To help answer the question whether the jhaanas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotaapatti). Since the Nikaayas order the process of awakening into four stages – stream-entry, once- returning, non-returning, and arahantship – it is possible that the jhaanas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhaanas, while the jhaanas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikaayas that the jhaanas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner. I will review the texts that corroborate this thesis later in this paper. Recently, however, several articulate teachers of meditation have argued down the validity of the dry insight approach, insisting that the jhaanas are necessary for the successful development of insight at every stage. Their arguments usually begin by making a distinction between the standpoints of the Paali Canon and the Commentaries. On this basis, they maintain that from the perspective of the Canon jhaana is needed to attain even stream-entry. The Nikaayas themselves do not address this problem in clear and unambiguous terms, and it is difficult to derive from them any direct pronouncement on its resolution. In the suttas dealing with the gradual training, all the stages of awakening are telescoped into one series, and thus no differentiation is made between the preparatory attainments required for stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship. We simply see the monk go off into solitude, attain the four jhaanas, and then proceed directly to arahantship, called "the knowledge of the destruction of the taints." From such texts, there can be no denying the role of the jhaanas in bringing the path to fulfilment, but here I shall be concerned principally with the question whether or not they are categorically necessary to win the first fruit of the path. In pursuing this question I intend to pick up an important but generally neglected clue the suttas lay at our doorstep. This is the fact that many of the Buddha's followers who attained the first three stages of awakening, from stream-entry through non-returning, were lay people. The only stage that the Canon depicts as the near- exclusive domain of monks and nuns is arahantship.[3] This clue is more important than might appear at first glance, for a close examination of texts describing the personal qualities and lifestyles of noble lay disciples might bring to light just the material we need to unravel the knots tied into this perplexing issue. A study of the Nikaayas as a whole would show that they depict classes of disciples in terms of paradigms or archetypes. These paradigms are generally constructed with extreme rigor and consistency, indicating that they are evidently governed by a precisely determined scheme. Yet, somewhat strangely, it is rare for the outlines of this scheme to be spelled out in the abstract. This puts the burden on us to elicit from the relevant suttas the underlying principles that govern the portrayal of types. The texts with which we are concerned delineate disciples at different levels of development by way of clusters of specific qualities and practices. These texts function both descriptively and prescriptively. They show us what kinds of qualities we can normally expect of disciples at particular stages of progress, and thereby they imply (and sometimes state) what kinds of practices an aspirant at a lower stage should take up to advance further along the path. To draw upon suttas dealing with lay disciples is to approach the question of the need for jhaana from an angle somewhat different from the one usually adopted. Most participants in this discussion have focused on texts dealing principally with monastic practice. The drawback to this approach, as indicated above, lies in the predilection of the Nikaayas to compress the successive levels of monastic attainment into a single comprehensive scheme without showing how the various levels of practice are to be correlated with the successive stages of attainment.[4] So instead of working with these monastic texts, I intend to turn my spotlight on the unordained segment of the Buddhist community and look at suttas that discuss the spiritual practices and qualities of the lay noble disciple. For if the jhaanas are truly necessary to attain stream-entry, then they should be just as much integral to the practice of the lay follower as they are to the practice of the monk, and thus we should find texts that regularly ascribe jhaanic practice and attainment to lay disciples just as we find them in the case of monks. If, on the other hand, the texts consistently describe the practices and qualities of certain types of noble lay disciples in ways that pass over or exclude the jhaanas, then we have strong grounds for concluding that the jhaanas are not prerequisites for attaining discipleship at these levels. I will frame my study around three specific questions: (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhaana before entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyaama), the irreversible path to stream-entry? (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhaanas to lay disciples who have attained stream-entry? (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhaanas to the stream- enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment becomes essential? Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry ========================================= Let us turn directly to the texts themselves to see if they can shed any light on our problem. When we do survey the Nikaayas with this issue in mind we find, perhaps with some astonishment, that they neither lay down a clear stipulation that jhaana is needed to attain stream-entry nor openly assert that jhaana is dispensable. The Sutta Pi.taka mentions four preconditions for reaching the path, called sotaapattiya,nga, factors of stream-entry, namely: association with superior people (i.e., with the noble ones); listening to the true Dhamma; proper attention; and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. [5] It would seem that all the elements of Buddhist meditative practice, including the jhaanas, should come under the fourth factor, but the Nikaayas themselves do not state whether "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" includes the jhaanas. The few texts that specify what is actually meant by "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" are invariably concerned with insight meditation. They employ a fixed formula, with variable subjects, to describe a bhikkhu practising in such a way. Two suttas define such practice as aimed at the cessation of the factors of dependent origination (SN II 18, 115); another, as aimed at the cessation of the five aggregates (SN III 163–64); and still another, as aimed at the cessation of the six sense bases (SN IV 141). Of course, meditation practice undertaken to attain the jhaanas would have to be included in "practice in accordance with the Dhamma," but the texts give no ground for inferring that such practice is a prerequisite for reaching stream- entry. A stream-enterer is endowed with four other qualities, mentioned often in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta (SN chap. 55). These, too, are called sotaapattiya,nga, but in a different sense than the former set. These are the factors that qualify a person as a stream-enterer. The first three are "confirmed confidence" (aveccappasaada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha; the fourth is "the virtues dear to the noble ones," generally understood to mean inviolable adherence to the Five Precepts. From this, we can reasonably suppose that in the preliminary stage leading up to stream-entry the aspirant will need firm faith in the Three Jewels (the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha) and scrupulous observance of the Five Precepts. Further, the realization of stream-entry itself is often depicted as a cognitive experience of almost ocular immediacy. It is called the gaining of the eye of the Dhamma (dhammacakkhu-pa.tilaabha), the breakthrough to the Dhamma (dhammaabhisamaya), the penetration of the Dhamma (dhamma- pa.tivedha).[6] One who has undergone this experience is said to have "seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma."[7] Taken together, both modes of description – by way of the four factors of stream-entry and by way of the event of realization – indicate that the disciple has arrived at stream-entry primarily through insight supported by unwavering faith in the Three Jewels. It is noteworthy that the texts on the realization of stream- entry make no mention of any prior accomplishment in jhaana as a prerequisite for reaching the path. In fact, several texts show the breakthrough to stream-entry as occurring to someone without any prior meditative experience, simply by listening to the Buddha or an enlightened monk give a discourse on the Dhamma.[8] While the process of "entering the stream" involves both faith and wisdom, individuals differ in their disposition with respect to these two qualities: some are disposed to faith, others to wisdom. This difference is reflected in the division of potential stream-enterers into two types, known as the saddhaanusaarii or faith-follower and the dhammaanusaarii or Dhamma-follower. Both have entered "the fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyaama), the irreversible path to stream-entry, by attuning their understanding of actuality to the nature of actuality itself, and thus for both insight is the key to entering upon the path. The two types differ, however, in the means by which they generate insight. The faith-follower, as the term implies, does so with faith as the driving force; inspired by faith, he resolves on the ultimate truth and thereby gains the path. The Dhamma-follower is driven by an urge to fathom the true nature of actuality; inspired by this urge, he investigates the teaching and gains the path. When they have known and seen the truth of the Dhamma, they realize the fruit of stream-entry. Perhaps the most informative source on the difference between these two types is the Okkantika-sa.myutta, where the Buddha shows how they enter upon the fixed course of rightness: "Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. So too the ear ... nose ... tongue ... body ... mind. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith- follower: he is one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of the superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the sphere of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One for whom these teachings are accepted thus to a sufficient degree by being pondered with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower: he is one who has entered the fixed course of rightness ... (he is) incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream- entry. "One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream- enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."[9] It is noteworthy that this passage makes no mention of jhaana. While prior experience of jhaana would no doubt help to make the mind a more fit instrument for insight, it is surely significant that jhaana is not mentioned either as an accompaniment of the "entry upon the fixed course of rightness" or as a prerequisite for it. It might be objected that several other passages on the two candidates for stream-entry implicitly include the jhaanas among their meditative equipment. The details of these passages need not concern us here. What is of interest to us is that they assign to both the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower the five spiritual faculties: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.[10] The Indriya-sa.myutta states that the faculty of concentration "is to be seen among the four jhaanas,"[11] and a definition of the concentration faculty includes the formula for the jhaanas.[12] Thus, if we argue deductively from these ascriptions and definitions, it would seem to follow as a matter of logic that both the Dhamma- follower and the faith-follower possess the jhaanas. More broadly, since these faculties and powers belong to all noble disciples, not to monks alone, this might be held up as proof that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers, invariably possess the jhaanas. Such a conclusion would follow if we adopt a literal and deductive approach to the interpretation of the texts, but it is questionable whether such a hermeneutic is always appropriate when dealing with the formulaic definitions employed so often by the Nikaayas. To extract the intended meaning from such schematic definition, we require greater sensitivity to context, sensitivity guided by acquaintance with a wide assortment of relevant texts. Further, if we do opt for the literalist approach, then, since the passage simply inserts the formula for the four jhaanas without qualification into the definition of the concentration faculty, we would have to conclude that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers alike, possess all four jhaanas, not just one. Even more, they would have to possess the four jhaanas already as faith-followers and Dhamma- followers, at the very entry to the path. This, however, seems too generous, and indicates that we need to be cautious in interpreting such formulaic definitions. In the case presently being considered, I would regard the use of the jhaana formula here as a way of showing the most eminent type of concentration to be developed by the noble disciple. I would not take it as a rigid pronouncement that all noble disciples actually possess all four jhaanas, or even one of them. But there is more to be said. When we attend closely to these texts, we see that a degree of flexibility is already built into them. In the analysis of the faculties at SN 48:9–10/V 197–98, the first sutta offers an alternative definition of the faculty of concentration that does not mention the four jhaanas, while the following sutta gives both definitions conjointly. The alternative version runs thus: "And what, monks, is the faculty of concentration? Here, monks, a noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration."[13] The Nikaayas themselves nowhere explain exactly what is meant by the concentration gained by "having made release the object" (vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa), but they do elsewhere suggest that release (vossagga) is a term for Nibbaana.[14] The Commentary interprets this passage with the aid of the distinction between mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara) concentration: the former consists in the form-sphere jhaanas (and the access to these jhaanas), the latter in the supramundane jhaanas concomitant with the supramundane path.[15] On the basis of this distinction, the Commentary explains "the concentration that makes release the object" as the supramundane concentration of the noble path arisen with Nibbaana as object.[16] Thus if we feel obliged to interpret the faculty and power of concentration in the light of the jhaana formula, we might go along with the Commentary in regarding it as the supramundane jhaana pertaining to the supramundane path and fruit. However, we need not agree with the Commentaries in taking the expression "having made release the object" so literally. We might instead interpret this phrase more loosely as characterizing a concentration aimed at release, that is, directed towards Nibbaana. [17] Then we can understand its referent as the concentration that functions as the basis for insight, both initially in the preparatory phase of practice and later in immediate conjunction with insight. This would allow us to ascribe to the noble disciple a degree of concentration strong enough to qualify as a faculty without compelling us to hold that he must possess jhaana. Perhaps the combined definition of the concentration faculty in SN 48:10 is intended to show that two courses are open to disciples. One is the route emphasizing strong concentration, along which one develops the jhaanas as the faculty of concentration; the other is the route emphasizing insight, along which one develops concentration only to the degree needed for insight to arise. This concentration, though falling short of jhaana, could still be described as "concentration that makes release its object." The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikaayas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits. [18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhaagavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (pa––aavimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body- witness (kaayasakkhii), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (di.t.thippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhaavimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages – from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship – can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusaarii (vi–vii), who are on the path to stream-entry. What is noteworthy about this list is that samaadhi, as a faculty, does not determine a class of its own until after the fruit of stream- entry has been realized. That is, facility in concentration determines a distinct type of disciple among the arahants (as the both-ways-liberated arahant) and among the aspirants for the higher stages (as the body-witness), but not among the aspirants for stream- entry. In this lowest category we have only the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower, who owe their status to faith and wisdom, respectively, but there is no type corresponding to the body-witness. [19] From the omission of a class of disciples training for stream-entry who also enjoy the experience of the formless meditations, one might suppose that disciples below the level of stream-entry cannot gain access to the formless attainments. This supposition is not tenable, however, for the texts show that many of tthe ascetics and contemplatives in the Buddha's day (including his two teachers before his enlightenment) were familiar with the jhaanas and formless attainments. Since these attainments are not dependent on the insight made uniquely available through the Buddha's teaching, the omission of such a class of jhaana-attainers among those on the way to stream- entry must be explained in some other way than by the supposition that such a class does not exist. I would propose that while disciples prior to stream-entry may or may not possess the formless attainments, skill in this area does not determine a distinct type because powerful concentration is not a governing factor in the attainment of stream-entry. The way to stream- entry certainly requires a degree of concentration sufficient for the "eye of the Dhamma" to arise, but the actual movement from the stage of a worldling to that of a path-attainer is driven by either strong conviction or a probing spirit of inquiry, which respectively determine whether the aspirant is to become a faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower. Once, however, the path has been gained, then one's degree of accomplishment in concentration determines one's future mode of progress. If one gains the formless attainments one takes the route of the body-witness, culminating in release as a both-ways- liberated arahant. If one does not attain them, one takes the route of the view-attainer or faith-liberated trainee, culminating in release as a wisdom-liberated arahant. Since these distinctions relate only to the formless attainments and make no mention of the jhaanas, it is reasonable to suppose that types (ii), (iv–v), and (vi– vii) may have possession of the form-sphere jhaanas. But by making faith and wisdom the key factors in gaining the initial access to the path, this scheme leaves open the possibility that some stream- enterers, and perhaps those at still higher levels, may not have gained these jhaanas at all. Jhaana and Right Concentration ============================== Though the above discussion seems to imply that the path of stream- entry might be reached without prior attainment of jhaana, the thesis that jhaana is necessary at every stage of enlightenment claims powerful support from the canonical account of the Noble Eightfold Path, which defines the path factor of right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) with the stock formula for the four jhaanas.[20] From this definition it might be argued that since right concentration is integral to the path, and since the jhaanas form the content of right concentration, the jhaanas are indispensable from the first stage of awakening to the last. This conclusion, however, does not necessarily follow. Even if we agree that the definition of right concentration by way of the jhaanas categorically means that the jhaanas must be reached in the course of developing the path, this need not be taken to stipulate that they must be attained prior to attaining stream-entry. It could be that attainment of jhaana is necessary to complete the development of the path, becoming mandatory at a relatively late point in the disciple's progress. That is, it may be a prerequisite for reaching one of the higher paths and fruits, but may not be indispensable for reaching the first path and fruit. The Theravaada exegetical system found in the Paali Commentaries handles this issue in a different way. Based on the Abhidhamma's classification of states of consciousness, the Commentaries distinguish two kinds of path: the preliminary (pubbabhaaga) or mundane (lokiya) path and the supramundane (lokuttara) path.[21] Two kinds of jhaanas, mundane and supramundane, correspond to these two kinds of path. The mundane jhaanas are exalted states of consciousness (mahaggata-citta) developed in the preliminary path, as a preparation for reaching the supramundane path; technically, they are "form-sphere" states of consciousness (ruupaavacara-citta), that is, types of consciousness typical of the "form realm" and tending to rebirth in the form realm. The supramundane jhaanas are supramundane states of consciousness (lokuttara-citta) identical with the supramundane paths or fruits themselves. This distinction allows the Commentaries to hold simultaneously two theses regarding the relation of jhaana to the path: (i) every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of stream-entry up, is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana; (ii) not all path-attainers have reached jhaana in the preliminary path leading up to the supramundane path, and thus they need not be attainers of mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana. These two theses can be reconciled because the paths and fruits always occur at a level of concentration corresponding to one of the four jhaanas and thus may be considered jhaanas in their own right, though jhaanas of the supramundane rather than mundane type. These jhaanas are quite distinct from the mundane jhaanas, the exalted states of concentration pertaining to the form-sphere (ruupaavacara). As all path-attainers necessarily attain supramundane jhaana, they fulfil the definition of right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path, but they may not have attained the form-sphere jhaanas prior to reaching the path. Those who do not attain jhaana develop a lower degree of concentration (called access concentration, upacaara- samaadhi) which they use as a basis to arouse insight and thereby reach the supramundane path. When those meditators who arouse insight without prior attainment of jhaana reach the supramundane path, their path attainment occurs at the level of the first supramundane jhaana. Those who have already cultivated the mundane jhaanas prior to attaining the path, it is said, generally attain a path that occurs at a jhaanic level corresponding to their degree of achievement in the practice of the mundane jhaanas.[22] Though the Nikaayas do not clearly distinguish the two types of paths and jhaanas, several suttas foreshadow this distinction, the most prominent among them being the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta.[23] The distinction becomes explicit in the Abhidhamma, where it is used as a basis for the definitions of the form-sphere and supramundane wholesome states of consciousness. The Commentaries go one step further and adopt this distinction as foundational to their entire method of exegesis. Although one is certainly not justified in reading the interpretative concepts of the Commentaries into the canonical texts themselves, since the Commentaries feel obliged to explain the definition of right concentration as the four jhaanas in a way that does not imply all path-attainers possess the form-sphere jhaanas, this makes it plain that they did not regard the form-sphere jhaanas as a prerequisite for attaining the path of stream-entry. The Stream-enterer and Jhaana ============================= The contention between the two parties in the contemporary debate might be recapitulated thus: Those who assert that jhaana is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhaana is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path. Both parties usually agree that jhaana is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhaana. To decide this question, I wish to query the texts themselves and ask whether they show us instances of stream-enterers who are not attainers of the jhaanas. Now while there are no suttas which flatly state that it is possible to become a stream-enterer without having attained at least the first jhaana, I think there are several that imply as much. (1) Let us start with the Cuu.ladukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN No. 14). The sutta opens when the Sakyan lay disciple Mahaanaama, identified by the commentary as a once-returner, comes to the Buddha and presents him with a personal problem. Although he has long understood, through the guidance of the teaching, that greed, hatred, and delusion are corruptions of the mind (cittassa upakkilesa), such states still arise in him and overpower his mind. This troubles him and makes him wonder what the underlying cause might be. In his reply the Buddha says: "Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery, rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures."[24] The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a "noble disciple" (ariya-saavaka). Though the term ariya-saavaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer. Yet the second part of the statement implies he does not possess even the first jhaana, for the phrase used to describe what he lacks ("a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states") precisely echoes the wording of the basic formula for the first jhaana. The state "more peaceful than that" would, of course, be the higher jhaanas. (2) At AN 5:179/III 211, the Buddha speaks, with reference to "a lay follower clothed in white" (gihii odaatavasana), of four "pleasant dwellings in this very life pertaining to the higher mind" (cattaaro aabhicetasikaa di.t.thadhamma-sukhavihaaraa). Now in relation to monks, the Nikaayas invariably use this expression to mean the four jhaanas.[25] If it were considered commonplace, or even paradigmatic, for a lay noble disciple to attain the four jhaanas, one would expect the Buddha to explain the above expression in the same way as he does for monks. But he does not. Rather, when he specifies what these "pleasant abidings" mean for the noble lay follower, he identifies them with the possession of the four "factors of stream- entry" (sotaapattiya,nga), namely, confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones." This difference in explanation has important ramifications and is indicative of major differences in expectations regarding lay followers and monks. (3) At AN VI 10/III 284–88, the Sakyan noble Mahaanaama again approaches the Buddha and inquires about the meditative practice of "a noble disciple who has reached the fruit and understood the message" (ariyasaavako aagataphalo vi––aatasaasano). Here again, it is clear from the epithets used that the question concerns a lay follower who has realized stream-entry or some higher stage. Further, at the end of each expository section, the Buddha stresses the ariyan stature of the disciple with the words: "This is called, Mahaanaama, a noble disciple who among unrighteous humanity has attained righteousness, who among an afflicted humanity dwells unafflicted, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha" (and so for each object of recollection).[26] In his reply the Buddha shows how the lay disciple takes up one of the six objects of recollection (cha anussati): the Three Jewels, morality, generosity, and the devas. As the disciple recollects each theme, his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred, or delusion, but becomes upright (ujugata): "With an unright mind he gains the inspiration of the goal, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened rapture arises, his body becomes tranquil, and he experiences happiness. For one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated."[27] As this passage shows, contemplation based on the Buddha (and the other objects of recollection) culminates in samaadhi, yet the nature of this samaadhi is not elucidated by way of the jhaana formula. In fact, the Nikaayas never ascribe to these reflective contemplations the capacity to induce jhaana, and this is expressly denied in the Commentaries, which hold that because these meditation subjects involve intensive use of discursive thought they can lead only as far as access concentration (upacaara-samaadhi). It thus seems that the type of concentration typically available to a lay noble disciple at the stage of stream-entry or once-returning is access concentration. This, of course, does not mean that stream- enterers and once-returners don't attain the jhaanas, but only that the standard doctrinal structure does not ascribe the jhaanas to them as essential equipment. (4) Nor does the above sutta imply that a lay stream-enterer must remain content merely with excursions into access concentration and cannot develop the higher wisdom of insight. To the contrary, the Buddha includes the higher wisdom among the five excellent qualities he regularly ascribes to noble lay disciples: faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.[28] In several suttas of the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta, generosity and wisdom even replace virtue as the fourth factor of stream-entry, faith being included by "confirmed confidence" in the Three Jewels.[29] We should note that we do not find among these qualities any mention of samaadhi or a formula for the jhaanas. Yet we see that wisdom is defined in exactly the same terms used to define the wisdom of a monk in training (sekha). It is "the noble wisdom that discerns the arising and passing away of things, that is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering."[30] Since the lay stream-enterer or once- returner is thus well equipped with the wisdom of insight but is not typically described as a jhaana attainer, this implies that attainment of jhaana is not normally expected or required of him. From this we can also conclude that at these early stages of the path liberative wisdom does not depend on a supporting base of jhaana. (5) A text in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta gives credit to this conclusion. At SN 55:40/V 398–99, the Buddha explains to the Sakyan Nandiya how a noble disciple dwells diligently (ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii). He says that a noble disciple should not become complacent about possessing the four factors of stream-entry but should use these qualities as starting points for contemplation: "He is not content with his confirmed confidence in the Buddha (etc.), but strives further in seclusion by day and in retreat by night. As he dwells diligently, gladness arises ... (as above) ... for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. It is with the manifestation of phenomena to him that he is reckoned as 'one who dwells diligently.'"[31] The expression "manifestation of phenomena" (dhammaana.m paatubhaava) indicates that the disciple is engaged in contemplating the rise and fall of the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and so forth. Thus this passage shows how the disciple proceeds from concentration to insight, but it does not describe this concentration in terms suggesting it occurs at the level of jhaana. Since the sequence switches over from concentration to insight without mentioning jhaana, it seems that the concentration attained will be tantamount to access concentration, not jhaana, yet even this suffices to support the arising of insight. When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? ===================================== While there seem to be no suttas that impose an inflexible rule to the effect that a lay noble disciple must possess the jhaanas, there are at least two texts that explicitly ascribe all four jhaanas to certain householders. One, found in the Citta-sa.myutta (SN 41:9/IV 300–2), features Citta the householder, the foremost lay preacher, in a conversation with a naked ascetic named Kassapa. Kassapa was an old friend of Citta who had embraced the life of renunciation thirty years earlier, and this is apparently their first meeting since that time. Kassapa confesses to Citta that in all these years he has not achieved any "superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision befitting the noble ones" (uttarimanussadhammaa alamariya-– aa.nadassanavisesa); all he does is go about naked, with a shaved head, using a feather brush to sweep his seat. He then asks Citta whether, as a lay disciple of the Buddha, he has reached any distinguished attainments. Citta says that he has, and then declares his ability to enter and dwell in the four jhaanas (he uses the standard formula). To this he adds: "Further, if I were to die before the Blessed One, it would not be surprising if the Blessed One would declare of me: 'There is no fetter bound by which Citta the householder might come back to this world.'"[32] Through this bit of coded text, partly a stock formulation, Citta is informing his friend that he is a non-returner with access to the four jhaanas. The other sutta is AN 7:50/IV 66–67 and concerns the lay woman Nandamaataa. In the presence of the Venerable Saariputta and other monks, Nandamaataa has been disclosing the seven wonderful and marvellous qualities with which she is endowed. The sixth of these is possession of the four jhaanas, again described by the stock formula. The seventh is as follows: "As to the five lower fetters taught by the the Blessed One, I do not see among them any as yet unabandoned in myself."[33] This too is a coded way of declaring her status as a non-returner. Such are the reports that have come down in the Sutta Pi.taka about two lay followers who possess both the four jhaanas and the status of non-returner. Whether these two achievements are inseparably connected or not is difficult to determine on the basis of the Nikaayas, but there are several texts that lend support to this conclusion. One sutta (AN 3:85/I 231–32) ranks the four classes of noble disciples in relation to the threefold higher training consisting of the higher virtue, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. Just below, the Buddha explains the training in the higher virtue (adhisiila-sikkhaa) as the restraint of the Paatimokkha, the code of monastic rules; the training in the higher mind (adhicitta- sikkhaa), as the four jhaanas (defined by the usual formula); and the training in the higher wisdom (adhipaññaa-sikkhaa), as either the knowledge of the four noble truths or liberation from the taints (AN 3:88–89/I 235–36). Although the Buddha's treatment of this topic is governed by a monastic context, the principles of classification can easily be extended to lay disciples. Returning to AN 3:85, we learn that the stream-enterer and the once-returner have fulfilled the training in the higher virtue (which for a lay disciple would mean possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones") but have accomplished the other two trainings only partly; the non-returner has fulfilled the trainings in the higher virtue and the higher mind but accomplished the training in the higher wisdom only partly; and the arahant has fulfilled all three trainings. Now since the non- returner has fulfilled the training in the higher mind, and this is defined as the four jhaanas, he is probably an attainer of the jhaanas. It might still be questioned, however, whether he must possess all four jhaanas. While a literal reading of the above sutta would support this conclusion, if we bear in mind my earlier comments about interpreting stock formulas, we might conjecture that the training in the higher mind is fulfilled by the secure attainment of even one jhaana. This seems to be confirmed by the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta (MN No. 64/I 434–37), which shows how the attainment of jhaana figures in the preliminary phase of the path to the stage of non-returner. At a certain point in his discourse, the Buddha announces that he will teach "the path and way for the abandoning of the five lower fetters" (yo maggo yaa pa.tipadaa pa–canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya). He underscores the importance of what he is about to explain with a simile. Just as it is impossible to cut out the heartwood of a great tree without first cutting through the bark and softwood, so it is impossible to cut off the five lower fetters without relying on the path and practice he is about to make known. This lays down categorically that the procedure to be described must be exactly followed to win the promised goal, the eradication of the five lower fetters (the defining achievement of the non-returner). The Buddha then explains the method. The meditator enters into one of the four jhaanas or the lower three formless attainments (the text takes up each in turn) and dissects it into its constituents: form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness in the case of the four jhaanas; the same, but omitting form, for the three formless attainments.[34] He next contemplates these phenomena in eleven ways: as impermanent, suffering, a disease, a boil, a dart, misery, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and non-self. Then, when his contemplation reaches maturity, he turns his mind away from these things and directs it to the deathless element (amata-dhaatu), i.e., Nibbaana. "If he is firm in this he reaches arahantship right on the spot, but if he holds back slightly due to attachment and delight in the Dhamma, then he eliminates the five lower fetters and becomes a spontaneous ariser, who attains final Nibbaana there (in a celestial realm) without ever returning from that world."[35] The Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta thus makes the attainment of jhaana a necessary part of the preparatory practice for attaining the stage of non-returner. Though the sutta discusses the practice undertaken by a monk, since the Buddha has declared this to be "the path and practice for abandoning the five lower fetters," we are entitled to infer that lay practitioners too must follow this course. This would imply that a once-returner who aspires to become a non-returner should develop at least the first jhaana in the preliminary phase of the path, using the jhaana as the launching pad for developing insight. While the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta and its parallel (AN 9:36/IV 422–26) imply that prior attainment of the first jhaana is a minimum requirement for reaching the fruit of non-returning, we may still query whether this is an invariable rule or merely a general stipulation that allows for exceptions. Several suttas suggest the latter may in fact be the case. In two consecutive texts the Buddha extols the "eight wonderful and marvellous qualities" of two lay followers named Ugga. In the first (AN 8:aa1/IV 211), he declares that Ugga of Vesaalii has abandoned all five fetters (as for Nandamaataa above); in the second (AN 8:22/IV 216), he says that Ugga of Hatthigaama has no fetters bound by which he might come back to this world (as for Citta). Yet, though he thus confirms their standing as non-returners, the Buddha does not mention jhaanic attainments among their eight wonderful qualities. This, of course, need not be taken to mean that they lacked attainment of jhaana. It may have been that their jhaanic skills were less remarkable than the other qualities they possessed, or they may have been adept in only one or two jhaanas rather than in all four. But it does leave open the possibility that they were non-returners without jhaana. Still another suggestive text is the Diighaavu Sutta (SN 55:3/V 344– 46). Here, the Buddha visits a young lay follower named Diighaavu, who is gravely ill. He first enjoins the sick boy to acquire confirmed confidence in the Three Jewels and the virtues dear to the noble ones, that is, to become a stream-enterer. When Diighaavu declares that he already possesses these qualities, the Buddha tells him that since he is established in the four factors of stream-entry, he should "strive further to develop six qualities that partake of true knowledge" (cha vijjaabhaagiyaa dhammaa): "You should dwell contemplating the impermanence of all formations, perceiving suffering in what is impermanent, perceiving non-self in what is suffering, perceiving abandonment, perceiving dispassion, perceiving cessation."[36] Diighaavu assures the Blessed One that he is already practising these contemplations, and the Master leaves. A short time later Diighaavu dies. On hearing the news of his death, the monks approach the Buddha to ask about his future rebirth. The Buddha declares that Diighaavu the lay follower had eradicated the five lower fetters and was spontaneously reborn as a non-returner. Here the transition from stream-entry to non-returning occurs entirely through a series of contemplations that pertain to insight. There has been no exhortation to develop the jhaanas, yet through the practice of the "six things partaking of true knowledge" Diighaavu has severed the five fetters and gained the third fruit of the path. A theoretical foundation for Diighaavu's approach might be gleaned from another sutta. At AN 4:169/II 155–56, the Buddha contrasts two kinds of non-returners: one who attains final Nibbaana without exertion (asa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii), and one who attains final Nibbaana with exertion (sasa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii). The former is one who enters and dwells in the four jhaanas (described by the stock formula). The latter practises instead the "austere" meditations such as the contemplation of the foulness of the body, reflection on the repulsiveness of food, disenchantment with the whole world, perception of impermanence in all formations, and recollection of death.[37] Again, there is no categorical assertion that the latter is altogether bereft of jhaana, but the contrast of this type with one who gains the four jhaanas suggests this as a possibility. Though the possibility that there might be non-returners without jhaanas cannot be ruled out, from the Nikaayas we can elicit several reasons why we might normally expect a non-returner to have access to them. One reason is inherent in the very act of becoming a non- returner. In ascending from the stage of once-returner to that of non- returner, the meditator eradicates two fetters that had been merely weakened by the once-returner: sensual desire (kaamacchanda) and ill will (byaapaada). Now these two fetters are also the first two among the five hindrances, the defilements to be abandoned to gain the jhaanas. This suggests that by eradicating these defilements the non- returner permanently removes the main obstacles to concentration. Thus, if his mind so inclines, the non-returner should not find it difficult to enter upon the jhaanas. Another reason why non-returners should be gainers of the jhaanas, while stream-enterers and once-returners need not be so, pertains to their future destination in sa.msaara. Though all three types of disciple have escaped the plane of misery – rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the sphere of ghosts – stream-enterers and once- returners are still liable to rebirth in the sensuous realm (kaamadhaatu), while non-returners are utterly freed from the prospect of such a rebirth. What keeps the former in bondage to the sensuous realm is the fetter of sensual desire (kaamacchanda), which remains inwardly unabandoned by them. If they succeed in attaining the jhaanas, they can suppress sensual desire (and the other mental hindrances) and thus achieve rebirth in the form or formless realms. But this is not fixed for noble disciples at the lower two stages, who normally expect only a fortunate rebirth in the human realm or the sense-sphere heavens. Non-returners, on the other hand, are so called precisely because they never again return to the sensuous realm. They have eliminated sensual desire, observe celibacy, and enjoy a high degree of facility in meditation. At death, the non- returner takes rebirth spontaneously in the form realm (generally in the Pure Abodes) and attains final Nibbaana there without ever returning from that world. The non-returner severs all connection with the sensuous realm by eliminating the fetter of sensual desire, and this establishes a certain correspondence between the non-returner and the ordinary jhaana-attainer. The texts sometimes speak of the worldling jhaana- attainer as "an outsider devoid of lust for sensual pleasures."[38] If he retains mastery over a jhaana at the time of death, his sublime kamma leads him to rebirth in the form realm, the specific plane of rebirth being determined by his degree of mastery over the jhaanas. However, while both the ordinary jhaana-attainer and the non-returner are devoid of sensual desire and bound for rebirth in a non-sensuous realm, the two are divided by deep and fundamental differences. The ordinary jhaana-attainer has not fully eliminated any fetters and thus, with a slip of mindfulness, can easily fall victim to sensuality; the non-returner, in contrast, has cut off sensual desire and ill will at the root, ensuring that they will never again arise in him. He is not reborn in the form realm merely through the wholesome kamma generated by the jhaanas, like the ordinary jhaana- attainer, but because he has eradicated the two fetters that bind even the once-returner to the sensuous realm. This difference implies still another difference concerning their long-term fate. The ordinary jhaana-attainer, after being reborn in the form realm, eventually exhausts the powerful meritorious kamma responsible for this sublime rebirth and might then take rebirth in the sensuous realm, even in the nether world. The non-returner, on the other hand, never falls away. Set firmly on the path of the Dhamma, the non-returner who is reborn in the form realm continues to develop the path without ever regressing until he attains final Nibbaana within the form realm itself.[39] Conclusions and an Afterthought =============================== Our study has led us to the following conclusions regarding the relationship between lay noble disciples and the jhaanas. 1. Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry – the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower – show them as being proficient in the jhaanas. Though some suttas include the jhaanas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikaayas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhaana arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhaanas. 2. All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhaanas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhaana before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhaanas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhaanas in the preliminary phase of their practice. 3. A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhaanas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhaanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. 4. Several non-returners in the Nikaayas claim to possess all four jhaanas, and according to the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhaana is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non- returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhaana as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhaanas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds. 5. As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhaanic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhaanas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhaana-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm. 6. Although in the Nikaayas the tie between the two attainments – the jhaanas and non-returnership – is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhaanas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhaanas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhaanas. The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhaana at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikaayas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhaana in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipa.t.thaana Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhaanas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhaanas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhaanas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper. Notes ===== Abbreviations follow the system recommended in the Critical Paali Dictionary. 1. Vivicc'eva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicaaraana.m vuupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso ekodibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piitisukha.m dutiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Pitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajaano sukha– ca kaayena pa.tisa.mvedeti, yan ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti upekkhako satimaa sukhavihaarii ti tatiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahaanaa dukkhassa ca pahaanaa pubb'eva somanassadomanassaana.m atthagamaa adukkham asukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. 2. The vehicle of bare insight is mentioned at Vism XVIII, 5 (PTS ed. 558); the dry insighter at XXI, 112 (666) and XXIII, 18 (702). See too Spk commenting on SN 12:70. 3. For example, at DN II 92 the Buddha testifies that numerous lay disciples who had died had reached the first three stages, and at MN I 490–91 he declares that he has "many more than five hundred" lay disciples who have become non-returners. The question of lay arahantship is a vexed one. While the texts record several cases of lay people who attained arahantship, immediately afterwards they either take ordination or expire. This is the basis for the traditional belief that if a lay person attains arahantship, he or she either enters the Sangha that very day or passes away. 4. One such text which does make the correlations, in a monastic context, is AN 3:85/I 231–32, which I will discuss below 5. Sappurisasa.mseva, saddhammasavana, yoniso manasikaara, dhammaanudhammapa.tipadaa. See SN 55:55/V 410–11. 6. Dhammacakkhu-pa.tilaabha, dhammaabhisamaya, dhamma-pa.tivedha. See SN II 134–38 for the first two; the third is more a commentarial expression used to explain the second. 7. Di.t.thadhamma, pattadhamma, viditadhamma, pariyogaa.lhadhamma; at e.g. DN I 110, MN I 501, etc. 8. DN I 110, MN I 501, as well as SN III 106, 135, etc. 9. Cakkhu.m bhikkhave anicca.m vipari.naami.m a––athaabhaavi. Sotam ... mano anicco vipari.naamii a––athaabhaavii. Yo bhikkhave ime dhamme eva.m saddahati adhimuccati, aya.m vuccati saddhaanusaarii okkanto sammattaniyaama.m sappurisabhuumi.m okkanto viitivatto puthujjanabhuumi.m. Abhabbo ta.m kamma.m kaatu.m ya.m kamma.m katvaa niraya.m vaa tiracchaanayoni.m vaa pettivisaya.m vaa uppajjeyya. Abhabbo ca taava kaala.m kaatu.m yaava na sotaapattiphala.m sacchikaroti. Yassa kho bhikkhave ime dhammaa eva.m pa––aaya mattaso nijjhaana.m khamanti, aya.m vuccati dhammaanusaarii okkanto sammattaniyaama.m ... Abhabbo ca taava kaala.m kaatu.m yaava na sotaapattiphala.m sacchikaroti. Yo bhikkhave ime dhamme eva.m jaanaati eva.m passati, aya.m vuccati sotaapanno avinipaatadhammo niyato sambodhiparaayano. 10. E.g., MN I 479, SN V 200–2. SN V 379 ascribes the five faculties to two types of persons who, though the terms are not used, are clearly identifiable as the dhammaanusaarii and saddhaanusaarii. 11. SN 48:8/V 196: catusu jhaanesu, ettha samaadhindriya.m da.t.thabba.m. See too AN 5:15/III 12, where it is said that the power of concentration (samaadhibala) "is to be seen among the four jhaanas." 12. At SN 48:10/V 198, the faculty of concentration is defined by the formula for the four jhaanas. At AN 5:14/III 11, the power of concentation (samaadhibala) is similarly defined. 13. Katama– ca bhikkhave samaadhindriya.m? Idha bhikkhave ariyasaavako vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhati samaadhi.m labhati cittassa ekaggata.m. Ida.m bhikkhave samaadhindriya.m. 14. Throughout the Magga-sa.myutta, the expression vossagga- pari.naami, "maturing in release," is used to describe the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. This suggests that vossagga, as the goal of the path, is Nibbaana. 15. Below I will elaborate on the distinction between the form-sphere and supramundane jhaanas. 16. Spk III 234, commenting on SN 48:9. 17. Pa.tis-a III 586–87 seems to take this tack in commenting on the expression thus: "Having as object release: here release is Nibbaana, for Nibbaana is called release because it is the releasing of the conditioned, its relinquishment. Insight and the phenomena associated with it have Nibbaana as object, Nibbaana as support, because they are established on Nibbaana as their support in the sense of slanting towards it by way of inclination. Concentration is nondistraction distinguished into access and absorption (upacaarappanaabhedo avikkhepo), consisting in the one-pointedness of mind aroused by being established on Nibbaana, with that as cause by taking as object release of the phenomena produced therein. Concentration partaking of penetration (nibbedhabhaagiyo samaadhi), aroused subsequent to insight, is described." From this, it seems that "concentration having release as its object" can be understood as a concentration aroused through the practice of insight meditation, aiming at the attainment of Nibbaana. 18. The fullest discussion of this sevenfold typology is at MN I 477– 79. The seven types are also defined, somewhat differently, at Pp 14– 15. 19. One possible exception to this statement is a curious sutta, AN 7:53/ IV 78. Here the Buddha begins by discussing the first six types, of which the first two are said to be "without residue" (anupaadisesa), i.e., of defilements, which means that they are arahants; the next four are said to be "with residue" (sa- upaadisesa), meaning they have some defilements and thus are not yet arahants. But in the seventh position, where we would expect to find the saddhaanusaarii, he inserts instead "the seventh type, the person who dwells in the signless" (sattama.m animittavihaari.m puggala.m). This is explained as "a monk who, through non-attention to all signs, enters and dwells in the signless mental concentration" (bhikkhu sabbanimittaana.m amanasikaaraa animitta.m cetosamaadhi.m upasampajja viharati). This assertion seems to open up, as an alternative to the faith-follower, a class of aspirants for stream-entry who specialize in concentration. But this passage is unique in the Nikaayas and has not formed the basis for an alternative system of classification. Moreover, the commentary explains the "signless mental concentration" to be "strong insight concentration" (balava-vipassanaa-samaadhi), so called because it removes the signs of permanence, pleasure, and selfhood. (See Mp IV 40 PTS ed.; II 720 SHB ed.) Thus it is questionable whether even the recognition of this type means that samatha concentration determines a class of disciple on the path to stream-entry. 20. For example, at DN II 313 and SN V 10. 21. The distinction is found already in Dhs, in its analysis of the classes of wholesome consciousness pertaining to the sphere of form and the supramundane types of wholesome consciousness. See too the Jhaana-vibha,nga (Abhidhamma-bhaajaniiya) of Vibh. 22. See Vism XXI, 112–16. 23. MN No. 117. In this sutta the Buddha distinguishes five of the path factors, from right view through right livelihood, into two kinds, one "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates" (saasava pu––abhaagiya upadhivepakka), the other "noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path" (ariya anaasava lokuttara magga,nga). "Noble right concentration with its supports and requisites" (ariya sammaa samaadhi sa-upanisa sa- parikkhaara) is mental one-pointedness equipped with the other seven factors in their noble, supramundane dimension. If the latter is understood to be supramundane jhaana, then we might suppose the jhaanas usually described in the training of the disciple are "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates." The texts never describe the jhaanas in quite these terms, but some suttas imply their attainment leads only to a higher rebirth without necessarily conducing to deliverance. See AN 4:123/II 126–28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them. 24. MN I 91. 25. See, e.g., MN I 356; AN 10:8/V 11, etc. 26. AN III 285, etc.: Aya.m vuccati Mahaanaama ariyasaavako visamagataaya pajaaya samappatto viharati, savyaapajjhaaya pajaaya avyaapajjho viharati, dhammasota.m samaapanno buddhaanussati.m bhaaveti. 27. Ibid: Ujugatacitto kho pana Mahaanaama ariyasaavako labhati atthaveda.m labhati dhammaveda.m labhati dhammuupasa.mhita.m paamujja.m; pamuditassa piiti jaayati, piitimanassa kaayo passambhati; passaddhakaayo sukha.m vediyati; sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. 28. Saddhaa, siila, suta, caaga, pa––aa. Sometimes learning is omitted, since this is not as integral to the ariyan character as the other four qualities. 29. See SN 55:32–33, 42–43; V 391–92, 401–2. 30. Udayatthagaaminiyaa pa––aaya samannaagato ariyaaya nibbedhikaaya sammaadukkhakkhaya-gaaminiyaa. 31. SN V 398–99: Idha Nandiya ariyasaavako Buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagato hoti ... So tena Buddhe aveccappasaadena asantu.t.tho uttari.m vaayamati divaa pavivekaaya ratti.m pa.tisallaanaaya. Tassa eva.m appamattassa viharato paamujja.m jaayati ... sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. Samaahite citte dhammaa paatubhavanti. Dhammaana.m paatubhaavaa appamaadavihaarii tveva sa,nkha.m gacchati.... Eva.m kho Nandiya ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii hoti. 32. Spk IV 301: Sace kho pan'aaha.m bhante Bhagavato pa.thamatara.m kaala.m kareyya anacchariya.m kho pan'eta.m ya.m ma.m Bhagavaa eta.m vyaakareyya, Natthi ta.m sa––ojana.m yena sa––ojanena sa.myutto Citto gahapati puna ima.m loka.m aagaccheyyaa ti. 33. AN IV 67: Yaaniimaani bhante Bhagavataa desitaani pa– c'orambhaagiyaani sa.myojanaani, naaha.m tesa.m ki–ci attani appahiina.m samanupassaamii ti. 34. According to the commentary, the fourth formless state, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, is not mentioned because its constituents are too subtle to be comprehended by insight. But a parallel text, AN 9:36/IV 422–26, teaches a method by which the fourth formless attainment, as well as the cessation of feeling and perception, can be used to generate insight and thereby reach arahantship or non-returning. 35. MN I 435–36: So tattha.t.thito aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati; no ce aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati ten'eva dhammaraagena taaya dhammanandiyaa pa–canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m parikkhayaa opapaatiko hoti tatthaparinibbaayii anaavattidhammo tasmaa lokaa. 36. SN V 345: Cha vijjaabhaagiye dhamme uttari.m bhaaveyyaasi. Idha tva.m Diighaavu sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii viharaahi, anicce dukkhasa––ii dukkhe anattasa––ii pahaanasa––ii viraagasa––ii nirodhasa––ii ti. 37. AN II 156: Idha bhikkhu asubhaanupassii kaaye viharati, aahaare pa.tikkuulasa––ii, sabbaloke anabhiratasa––ii, sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii, mara.nasa––aa pan'assa ajjhatta.m suupa.t.thitaa hoti. 38. MN III 255: Baahiraka kaamesu viitaraaga. 39. See AN 4:123/II 126–28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them. 40. This is a widespread view among contemporary interpreters, though the sutta itself does not describe its method explicitly in such terms. Metta, Rob M :-)