51600 From: Jaran Jai Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jjnbdal Dear Jon, Nina, Sarah and Lodewijk: Good to hear that Sarah is getting better. Too bad, I can't make it this trip. Just listening to your brief message already reminds me of the places we visited. It makes me miss you all very much. Looking forward to hear your detailed accounts and recording of your conversation. Please say hi to everyone for me. Safe trip back, jaran 51601 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin's ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Robert K - For your information: our last dialogue stopped at this point : > > > > Tep: > > > > Of course, I see it differently. I find Phil's strategy (to avoid > his turn to > > address the issue squarely) very funny. > ======= > Dear Tep, > Sacca parami is basic to developing Dhamma. If you are sure your > post was in line with the sutta you recommended then I say no more. > Robertk > Tep: Often I wondered why it was so difficult for me to answer RobertK's questions, even when the questions were shallow (i.e. not having depth in the dhamma or showing wisdom). Why did his questions, most of the time, make me uneasy? I think it was because they were asked with an intention to find fault with me or to corner me. This might be caused by my bad kamma. +_+ Sincerely, Tep ========= 51602 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: The All: //now as we speak?// buddhatrue Hi Howard, Antony, TG, and All, I can relate something of a personal experience to this conversation about the Sabba Sutta. I mention in another thread having a satori experience where I `knew' that I was everything I saw, smelled, touched, tasted, etc. There was no separation- I was `the All'. It occurred during a time when I was doing intensive meditation on a regular basis. Anyway, it started as I was driving to work, as a waiter, and I looked at the traffic and I thought to myself "Gosh, there sure are a lot of cars in my mind. I didn't realize before how many cars are in my mind." And then- BOOM- there was no more separation between me and the cars, and the people, and the buildings, sky, trees, birds, etc. Looking at everything was like looking at myself for the first time. This lasted for several hours while I was working and it was like walking on air. I felt so connected to everything because I saw that everything was me. Amazingly, I did such a good job waiting tables that I got the best tips that night that I had ever gotten. It all ended, though, when, standing in the kitchen, I started to think, "Now, if everything is me, and I know that now, why can't I know what is happening on the other side of the world? Why is my knowledge only limited to what `the body' experiences?" Well, that killed it! As soon as I thought that, I was a separate person again in a world of separate objects and people. Too much thought killed the experience. ;-)) But this experience did make me wonder if there is anything outside of the senses. Perhaps I subscribe to the `mind-only' branch of Buddhism. Haven't decided yet- don't know enough. Well, don't think I had much point to make. Just thought I would share. Metta, James 51603 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) nidive Hi Larry, Thank you for your explanation, although I am still unsure of what it really means. > Dissociation condition has to do only with a particular difference. > Vism.XVII,95. Material states that assist immaterial states, and > immaterial states that assist material states by not having > sameness of physical basis, etc., are 'dissociation condition'. > dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises by > dissociation condition. Would you mind if you explain what are the differences in physical basis for the case of eye, forms and eye-consciousness? I hope I am not asking a dumb question. :-[ > There is no Swee Boon anywhere. I must say this is something which I truly understand for myself through direct experience even though I don't really understand what is dissociation condition. Regards, Swee Boon 51604 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin's ] nidive Hi Tep, > Often I wondered why it was so difficult for me to answer RobertK's > questions, even when the questions were shallow (i.e. not having > depth in the dhamma or showing wisdom). Why did his questions, most > of the time, make me uneasy? > I think it was because they were asked with an intention to find > fault with me or to corner me. This might be caused by my bad kamma. You are mostly right. It's kind of sad that Triplegem engaged him as a moderator. Sigh, but let's move on. Regards, Swee Boon 51605 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin's ] buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Swee - Many thanks for supporting my minor complaint about Robert K. Well, looking back, I now am thankful for the TripleGem owner for "promoting" him to moderator. Because of his promotion that led to a censorship of my post, I discovered a better group -- the DSG. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > Often I wondered why it was so difficult for me to answer RobertK's > > questions, even when the questions were shallow (i.e. not having > > depth in the dhamma or showing wisdom). Why did his questions, most > > of the time, make me uneasy? > > I think it was because they were asked with an intention to find > > fault with me or to corner me. This might be caused by my bad kamma. > > You are mostly right. It's kind of sad that Triplegem engaged him as a > moderator. Sigh, but let's move on. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 51606 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin'... upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep) - In a message dated 10/19/05 11:05:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Tep, > > >Often I wondered why it was so difficult for me to answer RobertK's > >questions, even when the questions were shallow (i.e. not having > >depth in the dhamma or showing wisdom). Why did his questions, most > >of the time, make me uneasy? > >I think it was because they were asked with an intention to find > >fault with me or to corner me. This might be caused by my bad kamma. > > You are mostly right. It's kind of sad that Triplegem engaged him as a > moderator. Sigh, but let's move on. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ======================== Hey - how about taking it *easy* fellows? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51607 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin'... buddhatrue Hi Tep, Swee, and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 10/19/05 11:05:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nidive@y... writes: > > > Hi Tep, > > > > >Often I wondered why it was so difficult for me to answer RobertK's > > >questions, even when the questions were shallow (i.e. not having > > >depth in the dhamma or showing wisdom). Why did his questions, most > > >of the time, make me uneasy? > > >I think it was because they were asked with an intention to find > > >fault with me or to corner me. This might be caused by my bad kamma. > > > > You are mostly right. It's kind of sad that Triplegem engaged him as a > > moderator. Sigh, but let's move on. > > > > Regards, > > Swee Boon > > > ======================== > Hey - how about taking it *easy* fellows? > > With metta, > Howard Yeah, I agree with Howard! What the heck is this? This is just some idle gossip that no one should be exposed to. I don't even know what `Triplegem' is- don't care- don't care who was or was not moderator- don't care whose post was or was not moderated- etc. This type of gossip is better left at the laundromat or at a pie bake-off! ;-)) Metta, James 51608 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not wanting out of samsara. AGREED, VERY CORRECT! eddielou_us Hi, Ng Boon Huat, I guess you hit it right on the nail. Some people are more contentful and happy with human life (too bad animals can not tell and may not even be capable of appreciating, I heard animals are even more ignorant than us, ie full of moha). Some are less contentful with human life either more bad experiences or even being more sensitive or with different parami's (meritorius deed accumulation) sense something more is amiss so they want to get out of all these illusions and find the real truth as is, which in this case I think can ONLY be found in Buddha's teachings and revelations (not related to Christianty!). The reason why I said you hit it right, is human life may be okay, but we are tempted to the bad influence and can more easily accumulate bad deeds (akusala) than good meritorious deeds (kusala). This is especially true with today's world of bad elements SEEMS to be more advantageous (again an illusion). The result or effect of this cause is dropping into (I borrow your quotation...) 4 planes of suffering (hell, asuras, animal, hungry ghost). And worst still, it would be much more difficult to get up to other planes once we fall into those suffering planes. That is very real for those who look around what is going on in supposedly enjoyable human life with PRETTY POWERFUL MIND faculty, that are more often than not put to BAD use for doing akusala. That is even with very occasional TRUE piti or bliss or happiness and majority of the time sufferings (dukha's). To repeat again, it maybe okay for now and within the small scope of our abilities, but look at all those BAD TEMPTATIONS AROUND, EVEN MORE SO NOWADAYS, INCREASING AND NOT ABATING ANY TIME SOON!!! SO I refer to HUMAN EXISTENCE to be a very possible SUPERHIGHWAY TO next LOWER suffering planes of existence. However it can be also a very possible SUPERHIGHWAY TO NIRVANA. Read on... It is this EASINESS to slip into that 4 pits (MAYBE MORE) and hardly ever able to crawl out of them is the DANGER. BONUS Info for all: I also heard that it is the easiest or may even be the ONLY plane of existence here in Human world to reach for Nirvana. I have even one person telling me who cares about if he lands in hell or whatever as long as he can achieve his objectives in current life by crooks or hooks (I hope I use the correct usage, it means 'dirty bad methods', you know what I mean). That taught me how different each human mind can think and discern and how temptful it is and what parami's mean, just incredible!) In this automated system every cause has an effect however NEGLIGIBLE small, indeed a very good natural automated TOTAL accounting system (aka - Dharma? as shown by Buddha, correct me if I am wrong). Thx with Metta. Eddie --- Ng Boon Huat wrote: > Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... > > Hi there.... this question seem very fimilar... hmm, > > Metta > mr39515 > > --- Phil wrote: > > Hi all > > > > A basic question that I guess can't be answered > > them. So why would I want out? > > 51609 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Crying Baby Strategy [was: Please teach me ....in A. Sujin'... buddhistmedi... Hello James and Howard - Thank you both for your good-willed advices. It was a bad 'sanna' phenomenon ! The old memory just arose to conquer me and commanded me to write that "idle gossip" post which should have been "better left at the laundromat or at a pie bake-off". I will try harder to avoid showing any more 'loosened nuts'. {:>|). I have had a few too many loosened nuts already. With sincere appreciation, Tep ================== > > > > > ======================== > > Hey - how about taking it *easy* fellows? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Yeah, I agree with Howard! What the heck is this? This is just > some idle gossip that no one should be exposed to. I don't even > know what `Triplegem' is- don't care- don't care who was or was not > moderator- don't care whose post was or was not moderated- etc. > This type of gossip is better left at the laundromat or at a pie > bake-off! ;-)) > > Metta, > James > 51610 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > > In my understanding, rupa comes into being in dependence on nama > > > and nama comes into being in dependence on rupa. > > > They go hand in hand with each other and can never really be > > > "separate" from each other even though they are not the same > > > things. > > > Swee Boon > > > > As soon as reborn in aruupa bhuumi ruupa are left and it sounds like > > separated. > > Htoo Naing > > Sariputta said that name-&-form depends on consciousness and > consciousness depends on name-&-form. > > In the arupa jhana realms, it can always be interpreted as name > depends on consciousness and consciousness depends on name, without > including form. > > In the sensuous realms, it is like what Sariputta said above. > > Does this prove the dissociation condition? I don't know. In fact, I > really have a vague idea of what it means by dissociation condition. > The Buddha never taught it in the suttas anyway. > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Dissociation condition is something like 'slad'. There are tastes of sour, salt, spice, sweet and they do not mix. Likewise naama and ruupa do not mix and never mixed. They are separate conditions. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51611 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise: para 294 - 315. Ground #5, Part 2 buddhistmedi... Hi, all - This week we will complete the ground v, which consists of the following sections: "The Foundation of Mindfulness", "Training", "Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness", and "Combining the Faculties, Etc." [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 294. Through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with happiness there is feeling. The establishment is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The feeling is the establishment, but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that feeling. Hence 'Development of the Foundation of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of feelings as feelings' is said. 295. He contemplates: ... [repeat para 197]. 296. Development: ... [repeat para 198]. [Training] 297 - 8. In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with happiness are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; ... [repeat the rest of para 246 - 7 up to the end]. [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 299 - 302. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction throuhg in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with happiness, his feelings are recognized as they arise, ... [and so on as in para 199 - 202 up to the end]. [Combining the Faculties, Etc.] 303 - 15. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with happiness, he combines the faculties, understands their domain, and penetrates their meanings of sameness; he combines the powers, ... [and so on as in para 203 - 15 up to the end]. Tep's Note: The next post will be for ground vi of the tetrad 2. Warm regards, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > We completed the study of Tetrad 1 last week, kayanupassana > based on the breaths (grounds # 1- #4) . This week and next week, we > are going to focus on Tetrad 2 (grounds # 5- #8), vedananupassana > based on the breaths. Please recall that every tetrad starts > with "Analysis of the Object of Contemplation", then it is followed > by "The Foundation of Mindfulness", "Training", "Exercise of > Mindfulness and Full-awareness", and lastly "Combining the Faculties, > Etc." > > (v) > > 290. (9) How is it that he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with > happiness(piti)', (10) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with > happiness'? (snipped) 51612 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) lbidd2 Swee Boon: "Would you mind if you explain what are the differences in physical basis for the case of eye, forms and eye-consciousness?" Hi Swee Boon, "Forms" in this case is visible data, light; "eye" is the sensitive matter of the eye, the retina; eye-consciousness is seeing. Eye and visible data are rupas and eye-consciousness is consciousness. One can investigate this scientifically or philosophically and it becomes very subtle and complicated, but, personally, I don't think that is necessary. Usually we do not experience rupa as it is. We ignore it and instead react to perceptions and feelings. For that reason it is important to distinguish between nama and rupa, and see how very different rupa is from nama. Then, having clearly identified every aspect of experience, we can go on to seeing their causal relationships. A very basic causal relationship is dissociation condition. Contact, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness often arise because of rupa impinging on a sense door. That is dissociation condition, rupa conditioning consciousness or consciousness conditioning rupa, reading an email or writing an email. Other conditions are conditioning these activities as well, but this one points to the difference between nama and rupa and invites us to really experience rupa. Larry 51613 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:10am Subject: incredible india gazita2002 hello dsg friends, india defies any rationality, however that's another story. the development of satipatthana goes along with detachment, bec as soon as there is clinging to a method or a way to develop ther is attachment and we alread know clinging is one of the hindrances. so the very tricky,knotty question must be how is satipatthana developed naturally and without clinging to a method. cittas, cetasikas and rupas arise and fall away soooooo rapidly and is is just those realities that we take for 'me, mine'. if theoretical understanding can know this and know that 'we' can't make anything happen, then that may be a condition for a deeper understanding to grow and grow. But it can only do so at the moment of its arising - otherwise where is it? Its a concept and only becomes a reality when it arises. it seems like one must 'forget' about trying, one just goes about daily business naturally`and maybe ther will be contemplation in daily life , whether on a thinking levil or a deeper more sutble level at a moment of satipatthana. The stress is on 'arising naturally' not forcing the arising bec that is not sati, tha is clinging to an idea that "I can make it happen', and that as I understand, is the wrong path. BTW the girls vote for the best toilet stop along the way was a teak tree plantation; second comes a mango orchard; zero on the list was an open field with the villagers watching - the boys on the trip did not encounter much difficulty anywhere really :-) but you may have to ask the boys patience, courage and good cheer azita. 51614 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: incredible india . Satipatthana & Let It Be? buddhistmedi... Hi, Azita - Thank you for your post on satipatthana. >Azita asked: > ... so the very tricky,knotty question must be how is satipatthana > developed naturally and without clinging to a method. >Azita answered: > it seems like one must 'forget' about trying, one just goes > about daily business naturally`and maybe ther will be contemplation > in daily life , whether on a thinking levil or a deeper more sutble > level at a moment of satipatthana. Tep asks: I am not clear how the "forgetting about trying" is related to "developing satipatthana naturally". Are you recommending the "Let It Be" philosophy? Could you eleaborate a bit with an example from the Satipatthana Sutta? Thanks. Regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hello dsg friends, (snipped) > it seems like one must 'forget' about trying, one just goes > about daily business naturally`and maybe ther will be contemplation > in daily life , whether on a thinking levil or a deeper more sutble > level at a moment of satipatthana. > The stress is on 'arising naturally' not forcing the arising bec > that is not sati, tha is clinging to an idea that "I can make it > happen', and that as I understand, is the wrong path. > > BTW the girls vote for the best toilet stop along the way was a > teak tree plantation; second comes a mango orchard; zero on the list > was an open field with the villagers watching - the boys on the trip > did not encounter much difficulty anywhere really :-) but you may > have to ask the boys > 51615 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:17am Subject: Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Azita (and Tep, Hope you are having a nice time in India. I like your post on Satipatthana because it clearly defines the issues we struggle with here on DSG almost daily: Should Satipatthana be done as a `technique', or should Satipatthana arise `naturally'? It is my impression that you are voting for the `arise naturally' side, because you write: "it seems like one must 'forget' about trying, one just goes about daily business naturally`and maybe ther will be contemplation in daily life , whether on a thinking levil or a deeper more sutble level at a moment of satipatthana." Now, you may assume I would vote for Satipatthana as a `technique', but you would be mistaken. Actually, I don't vote for either of these propositions, because they are both flawed in my opinion; I vote for something more in-between these two extremes: A middle way to satipatthana. The problem with the first proposition is that it is ego driven. The idea of "I have read the Satipattha Sutta; I understand the techniques the Buddha describes therein; so I am now going to practice the techniques of Satipattha in order to become enlightened." This person doesn't understand that Satipatthana isn't about `techniques', it is about being aware of the present moment. Satipatthana is about `awareness', and there aren't really `techniques' to be aware- you either are or you aren't. In the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha is describing how one IS aware throughout the day, not how one CAN BE AND ONLY BE aware. And seeking enlightenment with the idea of "I will do these techniques to that `I' can be enlightened" is also a false view of enlightenment. That is like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Enlightenment is the surrender of the self so there can't be "I am going to be enlightened by following these techniques." However, Azita, I think that your proposition is ego driven as well. You are still subscribing to a technique. It is the technique of `no technique'. You think that you can outwit the ego with this clever ruse, but the ego is much smarter than that. You are still thinking, "I am practicing Satipatthana in a natural way. I am letting Satipatthana arise naturally. By this natural method, it may take longer (like many lifetimes) but I will become enlightened." This is a nice idea but the ego is still clinging, and still creating fantasies. Not only that, there is nothing `natural' about Satipatthana. If Satipatthana was natural, we would all be enlightened by now. The mind is too filled with delusion for Satipatthana to be `natural'. So, what to do? Do what the Satipatthana says: make a conscious effort to be aware of the present moment. Remember to bring attention back again and again to the present moment. That isn't a technique and it isn't a `no technique' technique. Awareness of the present moment, that's the anwswer. Metta, James 51616 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) nidive Hi Larry, > Usually we do not experience rupa as it is. We ignore it and instead > react to perceptions and feelings. For that reason it is important > to distinguish between nama and rupa, and see how very different > rupa is from nama. Then, having clearly identified every aspect of > experience, we can go on to seeing their causal relationships. A > very basic causal relationship is dissociation condition. Contact, > feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness often > arise because of rupa impinging on a sense door. That is > dissociation condition, rupa conditioning consciousness or > consciousness conditioning rupa, reading an email or writing an > email. Other conditions are conditioning these activities as well, > but this one points to the difference between nama and rupa and > invites us to really experience rupa. Thank you for your explanation! I now realize that I already understood this condition although I don't know its name or definition. Regards, Swee Boon 51617 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:03am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) nidive Hi Htoo, > Dissociation condition is something like 'slad'. There are tastes of > sour, salt, spice, sweet and they do not mix. Likewise naama and > ruupa do not mix and never mixed. They are separate conditions. Thank you for your explanation! Rupa and nama indeed do not mix although they do arise interdependent on each other. Regards, Swee Boon 51618 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee and Htoo - This is a "me too" message of mine : "... the mentality and materiality are not mixed up together, the mentality is void of the materiality and the materiality is void of the mentality; yet the mentality occurs due to the materiality as the sound occurs due to the drum." [Vism XVIII, 33] Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > Dissociation condition is something like 'slad'. There are tastes of > > sour, salt, spice, sweet and they do not mix. Likewise naama and > > ruupa do not mix and never mixed. They are separate conditions. > > Thank you for your explanation! Rupa and nama indeed do not mix > although they do arise interdependent on each other. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 51619 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and Azita, Howard, Htoo) You say the Satipatthana as a `technique' is ego driven. The person who practices this way misses the point that "Satipatthana isn't about `techniques', it is about being aware of the present moment" and nothing else. You also say that the " technique of `no technique' " prescribed by Azita is another extreme, and that it also misses the point (i.e. being aware of the present moment), because "the ego is still clinging, and still creating fantasies". And you came up with a "middle-way" proposal as follows. > James: > So, what to do? Do what the Satipatthana says: make a conscious > effort to be aware of the present moment. Remember to bring > attention back again and again to the present moment. That isn't a > technique and it isn't a `no technique' technique. Awareness of the > present moment, that's the answer. > Tep: This sounds like a lion-roar to my ears. {:>|) So, naturally I am interested in learning more about it; and I can learn best through asking questions. How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? What are the conditions that define the present moment? Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the attention back" a technique or not? What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the present moment in order to gain those benefits? Hope I didn't ask too many questions. :-)) Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Azita (and Tep, > (snipped) > Satipatthana is about `awareness', and there aren't > really `techniques' to be aware- you either are or you aren't. In > the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha is describing how one IS aware > throughout the day, not how one CAN BE AND ONLY BE aware. And > seeking enlightenment with the idea of "I will do these techniques > to that `I' can be enlightened" is also a false view of > enlightenment. That is like trying to have your cake and eat it > too. Enlightenment is the surrender of the self so there can't > be "I am going to be enlightened by following these techniques." > > However, Azita, I think that your proposition is ego driven as > well. You are still subscribing to a technique. It is the > technique of `no technique'. You think that you can outwit the ego > with this clever ruse, but the ego is much smarter than that. You > are still thinking, "I am practicing Satipatthana in a natural way. > I am letting Satipatthana arise naturally. By this natural method, > it may take longer (like many lifetimes) but I will become > enlightened." This is a nice idea but the ego is still clinging, > and still creating fantasies. Not only that, there is > nothing `natural' about Satipatthana. If Satipatthana was natural, > we would all be enlightened by now. The mind is too filled with > delusion for Satipatthana to be `natural'. > (snipped) 51620 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Tep, I seem to be on the Internet at same time you are, quite often. There is some kamma reason there, probably, that I will examine when I get the chance.... ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James (and Azita, Howard, Htoo) > > You say the Satipatthana as a `technique' is ego driven. The person > who practices this way misses the point that "Satipatthana isn't about > `techniques', it is about being aware of the present moment" and > nothing else. > > You also say that the " technique of `no technique' " prescribed by > Azita is another extreme, and that it also misses the point (i.e. being > aware of the present moment), because "the ego is still clinging, and > still creating fantasies". James: Excellent summary! I should hire you as my transcriber and then my fingers wouldn't get so tired on the keyboard! ;-)) (just kidding...btw, this entire post is just kidding.) > > And you came up with a "middle-way" proposal as follows. > > > > James: > > So, what to do? Do what the Satipatthana says: make a conscious > > effort to be aware of the present moment. Remember to bring > > attention back again and again to the present moment. That isn't a > > technique and it isn't a `no technique' technique. Awareness of the > > present moment, that's the answer. James: Again, a good summary. You are an unbelievable adept to whoever come what may! > > > > Tep: This sounds like a lion-roar to my ears. {:>|) James: On my goodness!! Step on the brakes!! What I wrote is more like a house cat meow. ;-)) Please, don't start subscribing grandiose ideas to me...I would appreciate that. So, naturally I am > interested in learning more about it; and I can learn best through asking > questions. > > How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? > What are the conditions that define the present moment? > Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? > If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me > to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? > How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the > attention back" a technique or not? > What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? > How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the > present moment in order to gain those benefits? > > > Hope I didn't ask too many questions. :-)) James: LOL! Oh, not too many...you spiritual leach! ;-)) (hehehehe...just kidding...I respect your approach). Anyway, give me some time to answer each of your questions. And I will do so. But please understand that even before I do so that my answers are faulty...they aren't the complete picture. I am not enlightened- I struggle with pain and suffering born of ignornace on a daily basis. But, maybe the one unique thing about me, is that I sincerely want to help other people! I love everyone! And I think they should love me!...so enough about Metta. Tep, I will try to answer you questions (though you would be better to ask an arahant ;- )). Metta and Love, James > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep 51621 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: incredible india matheesha333 Hi James, J:So, what to do? Do what the Satipatthana says: make a conscious > effort to be aware of the present moment. Remember to bring > attention back again and again to the present moment. That isn't a > technique and it isn't a `no technique' technique. Awareness of the > present moment, that's the anwswer. But isnt that also another ego based technique -ie your ideal middle path solution? :) I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the point of enlightenment. Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because that is impossible). You can wait for the perfect ego attachment free method until your dying day and even after that but it will never come IMO. metta Matheesha 51622 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:28pm Subject: Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Matheesha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James, > > J:So, what to do? Do what the Satipatthana says: make a conscious > > effort to be aware of the present moment. Remember to bring > > attention back again and again to the present moment. That isn't a > > technique and it isn't a `no technique' technique. Awareness of the > > present moment, that's the anwswer. > > > But isnt that also another ego based technique -ie your ideal middle > path solution? :) James: :-) Depends on your perspective, but I don't see awareness as ego based. Of course, what each person does with that is his/her matter. We start where we are- ego/non-ego mixed. From there we work to non-ego. It all is dependent on awareness of the present moment. There is nothing other than that! > > I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment > to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. James: Well, good for you!! Bully for you!! Of course, I hope you realize, that you have just discredited the entire Buddha's teaching. If there is no escaping the idea of self then enlightenment is impossible. Please, think about what you say before you speak...(and I hope I say that in a kind way. You are a wonderful person to be pondering and communicating such issues!). > Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > point of enlightenment. James: No one would 'start' at the point of enlightenment. At that point, there is nothing left to be done. Hello, we are all stuck in this hell of samsara and there is a lot left to be done! ;-)) > > Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya > ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because > that is impossible). > > You can wait for the perfect ego attachment free method until your > dying day and even after that but it will never come IMO. James: I explained, or I hope so, a middle path which is not an "ego attachment free method" as you so describe. It is impossible to delete the ego through supposedly free will!! I explained this! There is no reason to arouse fear and trepidation in regards to this issue until you have seriously thought it through! Give this issue some more thought before you condemn. > > metta > > Matheesha > Metta, James 51623 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: incredible india matheesha333 Hi James, J:I don't see awareness as > ego based. Of course, what each person does with that is his/her > matter. We start where we are- ego/non-ego mixed. From there we > work to non-ego. It all is dependent on awareness of the present > moment. There is nothing other than that! M: Fair enough :) > >M: I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or > attachment > > to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > > James: Well, good for you!! Bully for you!! Of course, I hope you > realize, that you have just discredited the entire Buddha's > teaching. M: You might not rush to say that if you would link up my next sentence with this one and see that I was trying to say. :) I did mention getting rid of sakkaya ditti (self view) immediately after this, so do give me some credit! > >M: Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > > point of enlightenment. > > James: No one would 'start' at the point of enlightenment. At that > point, there is nothing left to be done. M: Easy now, we are saying the same thing! I'm just pointing out the ridiculuous. > >M: You can wait for the perfect ego attachment free method until your > > dying day and even after that but it will never come IMO. > > James: I explained, or I hope so, a middle path which is not an "ego > attachment free method" as you so describe. M: Sorry James, I know you understand and I understand your position too. That sentence wasnt meant for you. :) I like to see what makes me upset so that I know what attachments, aversions and delusions I have! take care my friend, Matheesha 51624 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? > What are the conditions that define the present moment? > Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? > If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me > to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? > How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the > attention back" a technique or not? > What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? > How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the > present moment in order to gain those benefits? Dear Azita, James, Tep and all I think threads like this are very useful, helping to clarify (if not solve) issues and pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses of various approaches, respectfully leaving the rest up to us all as individuals. Obviously, Tep's questions are very sound. If it is correct that mind-states change so very rapidly, then what does 'awareness of the present moment' mean? I think that one of the possible weaknesses in the approach James has outlined is that, pragmatically, it ends up being a game of 'catch up'. The present moment trying to be focussed on has gone and the awareness is therefore just thinking about past realities (that have therefore gone from reality to concept). Pragmatically, the method leads to thinking and thinking that can only pretend to know present realities. This temporal issue, of course, besets all approaches. I think Abhidhamma tackles it by accepting that direct knowing occurs in the next mind-moment. I think that a possible strength in Azita's suggestion is that it recognises the limitations of ongoing conceptual thought (as well as the fact that we all do it so much). She raises the question whether liberation can be forced. Is the Path like one of those sound mixing machines with 8 dials and you have to adjust the Right Concentration and the Right Speech etc until everything is adjusted right and you get perfect sound (liberation)? Or does it all flow from Right Understanding and, if so, how does that impersonal process work? Some of the questions along the way ... I wish I had all the answers, but of course I don't. Best wishes Andrew T 51625 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Dear James - A hundred thanks for not taking my questions too seriously and for your promise to answer them. >James: >Tep, I will try to answer you questions (though you would be better to ask an arahant ;- )). ... ... I love everyone! And I think they should love me!...so enough about Metta. Tep: I know that an Arahant will certainly answer my questions at least 100 times better than you can. But I am more interested in your answers, believe it or not. Your Metta is clearly higher than mine. ^_* . BTW : what does "spiritual leach" mean? Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I seem to be on the Internet at same time you are, quite often. > There is some kamma reason there, probably, that I will examine when > I get the chance.... ;-)) > (snipped) 51626 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: incredible india buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta-ditthi and lobha. > Math : > I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment > to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > > Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > point of enlightenment. > > Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya > ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because > that is impossible). > Tep: It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. Regards, Tep ======= 51627 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: incredible india matheesha333 Hi Tep, Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. > we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta- ditthi and > lobha. M: oh ok T:It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view > that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. M: When there is a complete alternate view, with internal logical consistancy, and is intellectually difficult to approach to the uninitiated, yes it will survive as long as people wish to live in a cocoon. But then that is their choice. There are many who dont have such obstacles, yet dont seem to practice anyway. Even the Buddha could not enlighten everyone! So dont loose sleep over it! metta Matheesha 51628 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Tep & James, > How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? > What are the conditions that define the present moment? > Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? > If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or > guideline, for me to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? > How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that > "bringing the attention back" a technique or not? > What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? > How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the > present moment in order to gain those benefits? In my understanding, the focus of mindfulness meditation is not really about the "present moment". It is about the constant maintaining of three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out. What three sorts of perceptions? (1) Perception of inconstancy. (2) Perception of stress in inconstancy. (3) Perception of not-self in stress. With regard to past aggregates, one constantly maintains these three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All past aggregates are inconstant, stressful and not-self. With regard to future aggregates, one constantly maintains these three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All future aggregates are inconstant, stressful and not-self. With regard to present aggregates, one constantly maintains these three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All present aggregates are inconstant, stressful and not-self. Regards, Swee Boon 51629 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Matheesha, Oh my goodness, on readying your reply I now realize that I took your post all wrong. I'm so embarrassed now and I sincerely apologize. I think you clarified yourself well enough so I will just let it drop there. Metta, James Ps. BTW, if you use Pali with me I am bound to get confused. I try to figure out the meaning of Pali words by the context clues of the sentences and sometimes I get it wrong or just plain don't know. 51630 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Tep, Okay, it is now morning. I had a good night's sleep and so I feel refreshed to tackle your questions. Hope you aren't expecting too much! ;-)): Tep: How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? James: Well, if you are with the present moment there is no "I" in the equation: there is just awareness. The worldling spends his/her day lost in thoughts and those thoughts define the ego. As Descartes said, "I think therefore I am". Of course Descartes was right, but not in the way he thought. He should have said, "I think therefore the delusion of `I am' is created." Even further, thought is not even the real problem; attachment to thought is the problem. So, to get back to your question, you are with the present moment when you not attached to any of the objects of the five senses (including the mind door), you are just aware of them. Tep: What are the conditions that define the present moment? James: I'm not sure I understand this question. I'm not sure if you want an absolute definition, in which case I would have to get into quantum physics, or a relative definition, in which case I defined the conditions of the present moment above. Tep: Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? James: This is another tricky question. Nagarjuna, who I happen to agree with, points out that in actuality nothing is impermanent. To view that the world is impermanent means that you posit that there exists objects which are then impermanent. But really, there is nothing at all- there is only flux and flow. But, a more simple answer: it is changing all the time. Tep: If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? James: There is no `technique' to be aware of the present moment- that would just be more ego-driven stuff. You can be aware of the present moment, even though it is in constant flux, if you are willing to just let it be. In other words, don't try to "freeze" the present moment with conceptual thought- just let it arise, persist, and then pass away. This is not easy to do though. The mind's bad habit is to "freeze" this constant flux and flow and then put these frozen moments into categories (thoughts, memories, fantasies, etc.). It takes some practice and skill to change this bad mind habit. Tep: How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the attention back" a technique or not? James: You bring your attention back to the present moment by remembering to do so- by changing, bit by bit, the mind's bad habit of freezing the present moment and then categorizing it. But, no, bringing the attention back again and again to the present moment is not a technique. Technique is defined on dictionary.com as "The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished." There isn't a "systematic procedure" to Satipatthana- there is no "First you do this, and then you do this, and then you do this, etc.". Satipatthana is simply being aware of the present moment without clinging to it. The commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta does recommend certain modes of attention for certain people based on their accumulations, habits, etc. as a starting point. (This is the issue I am in disagreement with KS about). Tep: What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? James: Full release-liberation- nibbana. Tep: How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the present moment in order to gain those benefits? James: In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha gave the time frame of seven years to seven days to full release, depending on how earnestly one practices. Hope this answers your questions. Metta, James Ps. In your subsequent post you ask, "BTW : what does "spiritual leach" mean?" It was a typo. I meant to type "Spiritual Leech". It was a joke- as in someone who wants to suck all the spiritual information out of other people. I have a weird sense of humor. ;- )) 51631 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep & James, > > > How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? > > What are the conditions that define the present moment? > > Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? > > If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or > > guideline, for me to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? > > How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that > > "bringing the attention back" a technique or not? > > What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? > > How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the > > present moment in order to gain those benefits? > > In my understanding, the focus of mindfulness meditation is not really > about the "present moment". > > It is about the constant maintaining of three sorts of perceptions > day-in and day-out. What three sorts of perceptions? > > (1) Perception of inconstancy. > (2) Perception of stress in inconstancy. > (3) Perception of not-self in stress. > > With regard to past aggregates, one constantly maintains these three > sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All past aggregates are > inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > With regard to future aggregates, one constantly maintains these three > sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All future aggregates are > inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > With regard to present aggregates, one constantly maintains these > three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All present aggregates > are inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Is this information from a sutta? It seems somewhat familiar but I can't quite place it. Would like to read the full sutta if you have a reference. Metta, James 51632 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:00pm Subject: Good Action dilutes Evil Kamma ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Prior or later good action dilutes & delays effects of present evil action! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Regarding the effects of actions, Ananda, as to the person here who kills living beings, who takes what is not given, who misconducts himself in sensual pleasures, who speaks false, who speaks divisively, who speaks aggressively, who speaks idle & empty gossip, who is envious & jealous, who is of ill will, and who holds wrong views, yet who at the breakup of the body, right after death, reappears in a pleasurable & happy destination, maybe even in the divine dimensions: Either earlier - prior to this - such one also did good actions to be felt as pleasurable, or later - after this - such one did quite good actions to be felt as pleasure, or at the death-moment such one entered & maintained right views! Caused by that such one is reborn in a happy destination, even in the heaven! But since such one - here & now in the present - has also killed living beings, taken what is not given, misconducted himself in sensual pleasures, spoken false, spoken divisively, spoken aggressively, and spoken idle & empty gossip, & since such one has been envious & jealous, been of ill will, and held wrong views, such one will experience the result of that either here and now, or in the next rebirth, or in some subsequent later existence... Comments: Behaviour (kamma) is almost always mixed: Sometimes good, sometimes bad! The later effects are therefore similarly mixed: Sometimes pleasure, sometimes pain... Good begets good and dilutes & delays evil. Evil begets evil and dilutes & delays good! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The great speech on Action. MN 136 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn136.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51633 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:30pm Subject: The Effects of multiple Actions (kamma) is overlapping & interfering at any time point ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend upasaka@... who wrote: > > Prior or later good action dilutes & delays effects of present evil action! >rather than discussing combination of kammic actions that leads to dilution >of effects, the Buddha only here teaches the delay of separate effects - Yes, yet if just people pick up that the effects (vipaka) of action (kamma) is context dependent and that two individuals doing the exactly same thing will not experience exactly the same result! because of differences in prior and later associated actions, then the citation above will stand both True and Advantageous...!!! So that remains both good & unblamable IMHO! "Separate effects" do thus not exist as all is dependent on prior & later and may be said to multi-factorial!!! Yet out of didactic reasons the Buddha often teaches as if the proximate cause is the only uni-factorial one... Then he knows that the serious one's will track down the network of the infinitely complex matrix of remote causes themselves in due time ... All effects is bell-shaped in efficacy. First little then more, then stable, then diminishing, and finally vanishing: A figure here may do good: Overlapping effects Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51634 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Good Action enhances other Good Kamma ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Prior or later good Action enhances effects of present good Action (Kamma)! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Regarding the effects of actions, Ananda, as to the person here who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids all taking what is not given, who avoids all any misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, and all idle & empty gossip, who is not envious nor jealous, who is of good will, & who holds right views and who at the breakup of the body, right after death, is reborn in a pleasurable & happy destination, even in the divine dimensions: Either earlier -prior to this- such one also did good actions to be felt as pleasurable, or later -after this- such one also did quite good actions to be felt as pleasure, or at the death-moment such one entered & maintained right views! Caused by that such good one is reborn in a happy destination, even in the heavens !!! And since such good one furthermore also here & now has been one who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids all taking what is not given, who avoids all any misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, & all idle & empty gossip, who is neither envious nor jealous, who is of good will, & who holds right views, such one will experience the pleasant results of that too, either here and now, or in the next rebirth, or in some subsequent later existence... Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The great speech on Action. MN 136 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn136.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51635 From: "rahula_80" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 0:23am Subject: The Eight Strict Rules For Buddhist Nuns rahula_80 Hi, Any comment on this article? http://www.buddhistinformation.com/eight_strict_rules_for_buddhist_nuns. htm Best wishes, Rahula 51636 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: incredible india jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hello dsg friends, > india defies any rationality, however that's another story. ... Hallo Gazita and other India-goers (for example Sarah), If you have read the thread starting with your message 51613 "incredible india", you can get an idea about the enormous gap between those who were (or are) in India and those DSG-participants who where not. I think the next week we get more messages of what it was as a buddhist being in India, and many times the reactions of those who were not and have there own discussion-topics. So some information and one question. First the question: you must have met others buddhists on your pilgrimage, perhaps even had discussions with buddhist of other traditions, for example Mahayanists. Had this trip and this discussions made you more or made you less orthodox Theravadin? Your answer can influence my decision if I once want to visit India too. The information: we had great discussions and great battles in DSG the last month ! Of course about the topic you started (perhaps without being aware of it) But also about the jhanas, with clear information about this topic by Rob M ! Conclusion: forget it to get arahant without having been in jhanic absorption; but if getting stream-enterer is good enough for you, then you can do without jhana. O, I nearly forgot. Did Sujin answer the already famous question of James ? (Perhaps you're interested in my answer on it: it's impossible to live without the illusion we totally don't have any free will) Mudita Joop 51637 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee (and all) - >Swee: >In my understanding, the focus of mindfulness meditation is not really >about the "present moment". It is about the constant maintaining > of three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out. Tep: Anicca sa~n~na of all formations, dukkha sa~n~na in the impermanent, and anatta sa~n~na in the stressful are of great benefits as the Buddha explained in AN VII.46, Sa~n~na Sutta. "Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-046.html It rings the bell loudly when you stress the maintaining of these three perceptions with regards to the present, past, and future aggregates. If such perceptions of the three charateristics can be maintained "day-in and day-out", that to me means: in every present moment, continuously. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep & James, > (snipped). > > With regard to past aggregates, one constantly maintains these three > sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All past aggregates are > inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > With regard to future aggregates, one constantly maintains these three > sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All future aggregates are > inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > With regard to present aggregates, one constantly maintains these > three sorts of perceptions day-in and day-out: All present aggregates > are inconstant, stressful and not-self. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > 51638 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:19am Subject: e-Card from Srinagar (was, e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares)) jonoabb Hi All (and to James in particular below) We have spent the past two nights on houseboats on the lovely but freezing cold Dal Lake near Srinagar in Kashmir province. Needless to say the local vendors, who come by in paddle boats, have done a roaring trade selling cashmere woollen sweaters etc to the group, and several members are wearing the full-lenght woollen 'feren' (to bed at night as well as during the day). The lake itself is picturesque and the surrounding countryside magnificent. This is the leisure ('thiew') part of the trip. Some are using it to rest up, while others are opting for yet more bus rides off to mountain spots. The keen shoppers are doing yet more shopping! Tomorrow after lunch we fly back to Delhi and the group leaves on a midnight flight to Bangkok. Sarah and I will be staying on in Delhi and flying direct to Hong Kong later in the week. James, thanks for the reply ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ... > James: Thank you. Now tell him that he better stick close to Nina > or he is going to get a spanking! ;-)) ;-)) > > We've just finished the actual pilgrimage part of the trip, having > > spent a memorable morning yesterday in the Jetavanna Grove at > > Savatthi, where the Buddha spent so many years of his life. Very > > peaceful, very inspiring, and a good venue for discussion. Last > > night was spent at Lucknow, and this morning we flew to Delhi. > > After arriving we visited the site marking the place where the > > Satipatthana Sutta was deliverd (to the people of Kuru). > > James: Wow! That sounds awesome! Jon, you could write travel > brochures! ;-)) Glad to know there's something I can write that doesn't provoke negative reaction ;-)) I almost want to sign up...and then I remember that > it is India and I have some reservations. Travelling with a group like this is a very safe way to see India, and i can recommend it to you or anyone who has an interest in the Dhamma and would like to visit the holy places (and is willing to put up with 2 weeks of Jon and Sarah live ;-)). > > Appreciating the luxury of wireless broadband in our hotel room > > (especially after the frustration of not getting connected in our > > room in Lucknow last night), instead of dingy internet cafes. > > Unfortunately, little time to enjoy the other luxuries of our fine > > hotel, as we have an early start tomorrow for the flight to > Srinagar. > > James: So glad you got a respite. Sounds like a nice hotel. > Hmmmm...maybe India isn't all bad?? ;-)) India has some very nice accomodation, if you know where to look, and is developing rapidly (we can see a difference even since our visit last year). If you can manage Cairo/Egypt, you could manage Delhi/India I'm sure ;-)) Jon 51639 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jonoabb Hi JJ Great to hear from you (where've you been?). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai wrote: > > Dear Jon, Nina, Sarah and Lodewijk: > > Good to hear that Sarah is getting better. Too bad, I can't make > it this trip. > > Just listening to your brief message already reminds me of the > places we visited. It makes me miss you all very much. Same here. I have very fond memories of the trip in 2001 when you came with your father. Next trip will be in 2007. Any chance of joining then? > Looking forward to hear your detailed accounts and recording of > your conversation. I have recorded the discussions and we'll be making them available in due course. > Please say hi to everyone for me. Will do. > Safe trip back, > jaran Thanks. Best wishes Jon 51640 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:00am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Andrew - Thank you for your valuable thoughts. > A: I think that one of the possible weaknesses in > the approach James has outlined is that, pragmatically, it ends up > being a game of 'catch up'. > The present moment trying to be focussed > on has gone and the awareness is therefore just thinking about past > realities (that have therefore gone from reality to concept). > Pragmatically, the method leads to thinking and thinking that can > only pretend to know present realities. > Tep: Perhaps, it is not that dead serious for us to have to catch the present realities every nanosecond. The Buddha's Teachings in many suttas clearly allow contemplation of past and future aggregates as well as the present ones. ................................................... >A: This temporal issue, of course, besets all approaches. I think > Abhidhamma tackles it by accepting that direct knowing occurs in the > next mind-moment. Tep: The idea of direct knowing can occur in the next mind-moment is still too much to be practically implemented, I think. The Buddha did not mention the "next mind-moment" or the necessity to catch the realities at the very moment of their arising or dissolving. Several cases mentioned in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta are concepts (pannatti), not ultimate realities. ............................................ >A: I think that a possible strength in Azita's > suggestion is that it recognises the limitations of ongoing > conceptual thought (as well as the fact that we all do it so much). > She raises the question whether liberation can be forced. Tep: I think liberation depends on a number of conditions, some of which can be nurtured or "developed" or even "trained". Respectfully, Tep ======= 51641 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:20am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Thank you very much for the enthusiastic reply. >James: >Hope this answers your questions. Tep: You answered all the questions well. Now I understand your view on Satipatthana in the present moment. I agree with the following points you have made : James: If you are with the present moment there is no "I" in the equation: there is just awareness. [Tep: Similar to developing anatta-sa~n~na in every moment, right?] James: You are with the present moment when you not attached to any of the objects of the five senses (including the mind door), you are just aware of them. Sincerely, Tep, your spiritual leech. ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Okay, it is now morning. I had a good night's sleep and so I feel > refreshed to tackle your questions. Hope you aren't expecting too > much! ;-)): > (snipped) > > James: There is no `technique' to be aware of the present moment- > that would just be more ego-driven stuff. You can be aware of the > present moment, even though it is in constant flux, if you are > willing to just let it be. In other words, don't try to "freeze" > the present moment with conceptual thought- just let it arise, > persist, and then pass away. This is not easy to do though. The > mind's bad habit is to "freeze" this constant flux and flow and then > put these frozen moments into categories (thoughts, memories, > fantasies, etc.). It takes some practice and skill to change this > bad mind habit. > (snipped) > > Metta, > James > Ps. In your subsequent post you ask, "BTW : what does "spiritual > leach" mean?" It was a typo. I meant to type "Spiritual Leech". > It was a joke- as in someone who wants to suck all the spiritual > information out of other people. I have a weird sense of humor. ;- )) > 51642 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:40am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Tep, > Anicca sa~n~na of all formations, dukkha sa~n~na in the > impermanent, and anatta sa~n~na in the stressful are of great > benefits as the Buddha explained in AN VII.46, Sa~n~na Sutta. > > "Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of > great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, > have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception > of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of > loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, > the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is > inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-046.html > > It rings the bell loudly when you stress the maintaining of these > three perceptions with regards to the present, past, and future > aggregates. If such perceptions of the three charateristics can be > maintained "day-in and day-out", that to me means: in every present > moment, continuously. Excellent! This is the sort of "present moment" that I approve of and find gratification in. Thank you very much, Tep! Regards, Swee Boon 51643 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:19am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > Anicca sa~n~na of all formations, dukkha sa~n~na in the > > impermanent, and anatta sa~n~na in the stressful are of great > > benefits as the Buddha explained in AN VII.46, Sa~n~na Sutta. > > > > "Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of > > great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, > > have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception > > of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of > > loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, > > the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is > > inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-046.html > > > > It rings the bell loudly when you stress the maintaining of these > > three perceptions with regards to the present, past, and future > > aggregates. If such perceptions of the three charateristics can be > > maintained "day-in and day-out", that to me means: in every present > > moment, continuously. > > Excellent! > > This is the sort of "present moment" that I approve of and find > gratification in. > > Thank you very much, Tep! > > Regards, > Swee Boon > Friend, you're very welcome ! :-) Best wishes, Tep ========= 51644 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) TGrand458@... Send Email In a message dated 10/20/2005 8:03:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Hi Htoo, > Dissociation condition is something like 'slad'. There are tastes of > sour, salt, spice, sweet and they do not mix. Likewise naama and > ruupa do not mix and never mixed. They are separate conditions. Thank you for your explanation! Rupa and nama indeed do not mix although they do arise interdependent on each other. Regards, Swee Boon Hi Htoo and Swee Boon Are you sure they don't mix? I'd say that tastes mix as much as paint colors mix. Maybe we should consult a chef? TG 51645 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A dacostacharles Hi Tep, You asked, "Can the right answer to the question (Why is there the motivation to be different from another?) be simply : because there is a self view in the mind of every person ?" This is a good question, and to answer it "in truth" I would have to be in the mind of every person. However consider this, is there motivation in the minds of Arhats and Non-returners? This is more a question of definition/view. If so, are they motivated to be moral and not to fall back into samsara? If so, do they have a "self view"? My point, in short, people try to different because of many different reasons, and I believe a "self view" is at least one of them. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, 15 October, 2005 15:45 Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A Hi, Charles D. - Your reply was a 90-degree trun from the subject of atta-ditthi or self views. Charles D. : > You ask, "But, Charles, why is there the motivation to be different from > another?" > > That is an interesting question. Evolutionary psycho-Biologist would argue mating and being different helps to insure the survivability of the species. > > The idea of animals being "motivated to be different" is what is tricky > because there is such as well as the opposite (ref: culture), >but you also have to keep in mind that nature does not seem >to create 100% duplicates (e.g., even identical twins have >differences). So when I was talking about labels (e.g., "I") >helping to differentiate one being from another, I was not talking >about motivated differences, I was talking about a method of >identifying which being; e.g., this post is addressed to Tep and I >signed it Charles A. DaCosta; This tells who this post is intended > for and who it is from. In this case, we are not motivated to be >different; we are different because of nature. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: (snipped) > > Now if you are asking a general question, different also points to "special > or unique." This is a two edge sword, which can give rise to many different > emotions (feelings combined with intellect). And then there are the > Evolutionary psycho-Biologists. > 51646 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A buddhistmedi... Dear Charles - May your Q&A series continue until the last day of either your or my membership here. > Charles D. : > However consider this, is there motivation in the > minds of Arhats and Non-returners? This is more a question of > definition/view. > > If so, are they motivated to be moral and not to fall back into samsara? > If so, do they have a "self view"? > > My point, in short, people try to different because of many different > reasons, and I believe a "self view" is at least one of them. > Tep: Self-views (sakkaya-ditthi) are eliminated by the Sotapanna. I think motivation is the same as cetana, and it could be associated with tanha for the non-arahants. Any motivation is conditioned by avijja for sure. Since the Arahant is free from avijja, so s/he is unmotivated. I don't know about the Anagami (a search in the Visuddhimagga should be helpful). What is your thought? Regards, Tep ======= 51647 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Dear DSG Friends - In the SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta and also in other suttas about "not self" (anatta), e.g. MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta, the following teaching is seen again and again: "Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' "Any feeling whatsoever... "Any perception whatsoever... "Any fabrications whatsoever... "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' Tep: The words "to be seen as it actually is with right discernment" may sound easy like something everyone is capable to do right now ! According to these suttas, it does not require purification of virtues (Vinaya and Patimokkha) or purification of consciousness (Samatha or Jhanas). It may seem that there is nothing to do more than just keep on reminding ourselves, in all situations, the following verse : 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.', then one day the five aggregates are going to be clearly seen as they actually are with our right understanding! A person who believes so may be tempted to think that Nibbana is near because the Buddha promised the following : "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' [endquote] Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? Warm regards, Tep ========= 51648 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: incredible india kenhowardau Hi Tep and Matheesha, Tep wrote to Matheesha: ------------------ > Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. > we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta- ditthi and lobha. ----------------- It reminded me of that, too. It seems that these "formal meditation" discussions have at least accomplished something: people with opposing perspectives are beginning to understand each other. The idea that the path can begin without right understanding is a clear demarcation of the two perspectives. The idea that the path can begin, not only without right understanding, but also without kusala motivation, is an even clearer demarcation. --------------------------------- T:> It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view > that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. ---------------------------------- Amazing, yes, but is it necessarily due to stubbornness? Is that what keeps you to your view? Matheesha replied to Tep: ------------ > When there is a complete alternate view, with internal logical consistancy, and is intellectually difficult to approach to the uninitiated, ------------ Thank you for that succinct, non-judgemental, summary. ------------------------------------- M: > yes it will survive ------------------------------------- I can't resist saying, 'hooray for that!' (Although the texts explain that it won't survive for long.) ------------------------------------------------------- M: > as long as people wish to live in a cocoon. But then that is their choice. ------------------------------------------------------- We understand this aspect differently. I would say the way we live our daily lives is a result - not a cause - of our views. When we adopt a literal view of conditionality, formal practices lose their meaning and their attractiveness. -------------------------------- M: > There are many who dont have such obstacles, yet dont seem to practice anyway. -------------------------------- If you wouldn't mind, I would rather you to use the term "formal practice" (or "practice formally") in these contexts. The alternative (no control) view is not an obstacle to practice per se, but there are different understandings of 'practice.' When used in connection with the Dhamma, I believe practice is (as you have said), "intellectually difficult to approach to the uninitiated." I also believe (strongly) that, when you are finally initiated to this alternative approach, you will come over to it without any hesitation or regret. (But that is my biased opinion, of course.) ------------------------------- M: > Even the Buddha could not enlighten everyone! So dont loose sleep over it! ------------------------------- Well said: I agree. Ken H 51649 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: incredible india matheesha333 Hi KenH, I am quite surprised that you are understanding the path of 'formal meditation' only now. You have been a buddhist long I believe and that you are understanding these basic things now tells me that you havent spent much time thinking of alternate possibilities (nothing wrong in that though), or what model of dhamma practice you could come up with if you based yourself purely on the suttas (no need to do that either). I am going to continue our mahaanidana conversation, but im taking some time to head it in some useful direction! take care Matheesha 51650 From: Jaran Jai Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jjnbdal Dear Jon: Good to hear from you. Hope you and others make it home safely. I have been busy with other things. It took up most of my time whne I am in Bangkok. Good news for me is that I will be moving back to Thailand beginning of next year. I should be able to find some time to visit the foundation on weekends. I will be travelling just the same way, but I hope to be back to Bangkok for the weekends. Hope to see you when you are in Bangkok next time. Was it that long ago 2001? Next is 2007? We can always hope. This year Khun Elle (Fongchan) kindly signed me and my father up, but in the end, it did not work out... :-( Looking forward to your discussions and see you, Sarah and others in Bangkok. Best Regards, jaran --- jonoabb wrote: > Hi JJ > > Great to hear from you (where've you been?). > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai > > wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, Nina, Sarah and Lodewijk: > > > > Good to hear that Sarah is getting better. Too bad, I can't > make > > it this trip. > > > > Just listening to your brief message already reminds me of > the > > places we visited. It makes me miss you all very much. > > Same here. I have very fond memories of the trip in 2001 when > you > came with your father. Next trip will be in 2007. Any chance > of > joining then? > > > Looking forward to hear your detailed accounts and recording > of > > your conversation. > > I have recorded the discussions and we'll be making them > available > in due course. > > > Please say hi to everyone for me. > > Will do. > > > Safe trip back, > > jaran > > Thanks. Best wishes > Jon 51651 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment corvus121 Hi Tep Thanks for your comments, which have given rise to a few more questions below. You wrote: Perhaps, it is not that dead serious for us to have to catch the > present realities every nanosecond. The Buddha's Teachings in many > suttas clearly allow contemplation of past and future aggregates as > well as the present ones. AT: Past aggregates have ceased to exist and future aggregates have never existed, so when we contemplate 'past and future aggregates', what precisely are we contemplating? Is it important for us to know the difference between existent and non-existent when we do these contemplation exercises? If, as you suggest, there is no worldling 'practice' that can possibly 'catch' present realities, doesn't that suggest to you that present realities can't be controlled? Tep: I think liberation depends on a number of conditions, some of > which can be nurtured or "developed" or even "trained". AT: When you talk about conditions being nurtured, I suspect you must be referring to *future* conditions. Correct? So what's your interpretation of the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131); "Let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes; for the past has been left behind and the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see each presently arisen state. Let him know that and be sure of it, invincibly, unshakably." [Bh Bodhi transl]. Best wishes Andrew T 51652 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Not 100% confident of reaching Nibbana - Sceptical Doubt? antony272b2 Dear Group, I am confident that the Buddha was enlightened. However I am far from 100% confident that I can ever reach Nibbana rather than mired in the animal realm. Is that simply vicikiccha (sceptical doubt)? Or is my doubt mired in self-view? Thanks / Antony. 51653 From: "Hal" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:42pm Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana bardosein Hi Tep & all, "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' [endquote](SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta ) Tep: Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? Hal: When speaking of the "growing of disenchantment" towards all formations, the Buddha is referring to the higher levels of insight occurring at the sixth level of purification, known as the _Purification of Knowledge and Vision of the Way_. This stage heralds the onset of fruition knowledge. This is not something easily attained, least of all by thinking a set of correct propositions; on the contrary, right view involves a profoundly intuitive awareness of the entire _ti-lakkhana_,(beginning with anicca then dukkha, and finally anatta) leading to seeing things as they really are, and the onset of magga and phala. This liberating knowledge precedes all intellectual awareness. The thoughts "I am not", "this I am not," and "this is not mine" follow. _Samma-dhitti_ is available only to those who have overcome the taints (at least temporarily) sufficient to achieve the stage of equanimity towards _all_ formations. Having the correct conceptual notions and understanding of the goal is surely helpful, but hardly sufficient. They open the mind towards a possibility of _samma dhitti_, that would otherwise remain closed as conceived from the conventional standpoint (wrong view). This helps us get started in the same way a compass helps us find our bearings at the outset of journey. Even so, there is a long way between such intellectual understandings and musings and the liberating knowledge that gives rise to authentic right view. This journey is started, experienced and realized by first establishing the four foundations as outlined by the Buddha. In short, letting go of "misunderstanding" does not in itself lead directly to right view, nor is wrong view genuinely overcome by musing about it. Neither are correct statements right view. One can still have wrong view and make correct statements. Neither is a conceptually correct understanding of right view, the same as right view; one can have a conceptually correct understanding and still have wrong view. We should be careful neither to confuse _samma dhitti_ with correct propositions about right view nor the correct conceptual understanding about these propositions. Talking about the path is not walking it. Hal 51654 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 0:12am Subject: Re: incredible india kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, You wrote: ---------------------------------- > I am quite surprised that you are understanding the path of 'formal meditation' only now. You have been a buddhist long I believe and that you are understanding these basic things now tells me that you havent spent much time thinking of alternate possibilities (nothing wrong in that though), ------------------------------------ I practised formal meditation over a period of 26 years before joining DSG and learning about the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. What I am beginning to understand, only now, is why some people persist with their formal practises even after becoming familiar with those texts. ----------------------------------------------------------- M: > or what model of dhamma practice you could come up with if you based yourself purely on the suttas (no need to do that either). ------------------------------------------------------------ I agree that there is no need for anyone to base their understanding purely on an unassisted reading of the suttas. I would add that there could be no reason for doing such a thing. Are you saying there is? ------------- M: > I am going to continue our mahaanidana conversation, but im taking some time to head it in some useful direction! ------------- Glad to hear it. It has all been useful in my opinion. Ken H 51655 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Andrew), Tep: Perhaps, it is not that dead serious for us to have to catch the present realities every nanosecond. James: I'm afraid I must disagree with this statement for two reasons: 1. To use the word `catch' implies attachment to the experience of the present moment. A better word choice would be `aware' of present dhammas (I don't like `realities' either because dhammas are also non-self). I know- picky, picky ;-)- but our language does affect our views. 2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present dhammas every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the `Absolute Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to liberation. Tep: The Buddha's Teachings in many suttas clearly allow contemplation of past and future aggregates as well as the present ones. James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, in my opinion. So, I believe that contemplation of the past and future aggregates is of secondary importance. Tep: (in your other post) Similar to developing anatta-sa~n~na in every moment, right? James: Yes, exactly so. (had to look up sanna ;-)) Metta, James 51656 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai wrote: > > Dear Jon: ... Hallo Jaran Because your message to Jon about getting in Bangkok was made on-list and thus was not a private communication, I have some questions about it. You write: "I should be able to find some time to visit the foundation on weekends" Not all participants of this discussion-forum know what "the foundation" is; I don't know. Do you think we had to share your knowledge about it? Is it a subject of dhamma-study? Can this knowledge have a spititual effect on us? Metta Joop 51657 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Ken H (and Matheesha)., Ken H: The idea that the path can begin without right understanding is a clear demarcation of the two perspectives. The idea that the path can begin, not only without right understanding, but also without kusala motivation, is an even clearer demarcation. James: I don't believe I have read anyone in this group stating that the path can begin without Right Understanding or without kusala motivation. (You are twisting words again- naughty, naughty ;-)) What we have been saying is that the path can begin with wholesome conceit and wholesome desire. `Wholesome' is kusala so that point is immediately resolved. The second point is a bit more complicated. As you are probably aware, the Buddha taught that there are in fact two types of Right Understanding (or Right View): Mundane Right Understanding and Supermundane Right Understanding. We (us `formal meditators' ;-) believe that the path can begin with Mundane Right Understanding (as the Buddha and Ven. Sariputta taught) you, however, for reasons that still escape me, believe that the path can only begin with Supermundane Right Understanding. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse- in other words, not feasible. From the "Maha-cattarisaka Sutta": "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html Metta, James 51658 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: incredible india jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Dear James, Ken H, all Perhaps I'm a simple mind but I don't understand exactly your discussion. One of the Suttas that describes in many details the 'path' is the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (remember, the Sutta about "going to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness …") It also describes the Noble Eightfold Path and I think anyone agrees we had to "go" all the eight aspects op that Path. Not one time, not one after another in a prescribed sequence, not one till it's made perfect. But again and again doing each of the aspects, slowly spiraling to a higher level. That one time being active and another time being passive; one time reflecting (for example on my ethical behavior) and another time just being. One time doing 'formal' (what a ridiculous term) medtiation and another be mindful in daily life. Etcetera. I don'k think that there is one system in doing it, for example one prescribed sequence. Perhaps it's my anarchistic mind but I don't like systems: just follow my intuition what aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path I'm paying attention in a certain phase of the day/week/year. With mudita Joop Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) 5] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.' … d] "And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. " 51659 From: Jaran Jai Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jjnbdal Dear Joop: Glad to answer your questions. > You write: "I should be able to find some time to visit the > foundation on weekends" > > Not all participants of this discussion-forum know what "the > foundation" is; I don't know. Its full name is "Dhammastudy and Support Foundation", located somewhere in Bangkok. It's the place that many DSG members have visited. (Jon, Sarah, Rob M, Mike N, Ken O, etc). > Do you think we had to share your knowledge about it? Is it a > subject > of dhamma-study? JJ: I hope I understand your question correctly. I don't know where to start... Depending on how you look at it and how your understand "dhamma-study" is, short answer is 'yes, it is a subject of dhamma-study' for me and many. I am referring to one of my favorite sutta, AN08-002 "panna sutta". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-002.html You see, understanding develops due to many conditions. In the sutta, it mentions eight. The first and of utmost importance, IMHO, is to "live in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade". Living (or reading) among respectable members (because they have the right understanding, and are willing to take the time to discuss with you and answer your questions thoroughly that your doubts are eliminated) is one of the luckiest things that can happen to us now aday. This is why I was so happy to tell Jon that I was going back to Thailand and would be able to discuss dhamma with the friends. And I can see you share my excitement! > Can this knowledge have a spititual effect on > us? See above. :-) > > Metta > > Joop JJ: I sense that you are a bit annoyed by my mentioning 'foundation'. If you are, I am sorry. 51660 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not 100% confident of reaching Nibbana - Sceptical Doubt? upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 10/22/05 12:15:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: > Dear Group, > > I am confident that the Buddha was enlightened. However I am far from > 100% confident that I can ever reach Nibbana rather than mired in the > animal realm. Is that simply vicikiccha (sceptical doubt)? Or is my > doubt mired in self-view? > > Thanks / Antony. > > ======================= Can you not be quite sure that, any any time, by seriously following the Budhha's teachings, you can improve? Can you not, by working at it, become more consistently moral in behavior and inclination, more calm, more attentive? Isn't that walking in the right direction? You and I can't guarantee results because we don't control all conditions, but we *can* do what we can do, and every kusala action is to the good. How many times did the Buddha encourage his followers? Didn't he say that if he didn't think these things could be done he wouldn't each them? If you have confidence that the Buddha fully awakened, then also have confidence that he knew what he was talking about in teaching us what to do. Like Rome, the mind prepared for nibbana isn't built in a day. But it can be built: The Buddha showed the way, and we are so fortunate to have lived at a time that his teachings are still extant! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51661 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:12am Subject: Re: incredible india --> Incredible discussion buddhistmedi... Hi KenH and Matheesha - It is interesting to me that the thread that started with "incredible India" now has truned into an incredible discussion. Continue your lively and worthwhile discussion, friends ! [Please note that I did not call it a debate.] Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi KenH, > > I am quite surprised that you are understanding the path of 'formal > meditation' only now. You have been a buddhist long I believe and that > you are understanding these basic things now tells me that you havent > spent much time thinking of alternate possibilities (nothing wrong in > that though), or what model of dhamma practice you could come up with > if you based yourself purely on the suttas (no need to do that > either). > > I am going to continue our mahaanidana conversation, but im taking > some time to head it in some useful direction! > > take care > > Matheesha > 51662 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: incredible india buddhistmedi... Hi, James and KenH - Thank you, James, for your untiring effort to explain and re-explain, and re-explain, ... This is one of the qualities of a good Dhamma friend. > James: > As you are probably aware, the Buddha taught that there are in fact > two types of Right Understanding (or Right View): Mundane Right > Understanding and Supermundane Right Understanding. We (us `formal > meditators' ;-) believe that the path can begin with Mundane Right > Understanding (as the Buddha and Ven. Sariputta taught) you, > however, for reasons that still escape me, believe that the path can > only begin with Supermundane Right Understanding. To me, that is > putting the cart before the horse- in other words, not feasible. > > From the "Maha-cattarisaka Sutta": > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > > There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the > path. > > "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is > offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & > bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & > father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim > this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for > themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides > with merit, & results in acquisitions. > > "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of > discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a > factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one > developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free > from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This > is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a > factor of the path. > > "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter > & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these > three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — > run & circle around right view. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > Tep: It is a very important sutta quote that every Buddhist should memorize. Not forgetting what right view means (according to the Buddha), not forgetting what the first-attempt mundane right view is and how it is developed into the final, matured right view "that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path", are the only way to gain a clear understanding of right view. Warm regards, Tep ========== 51663 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:42pm Subject: Effect (vipaka) of Action (kamma) is always Delayed ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Effects caused by any Action (Kamma) is delayed as a Sown Seed! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Regarding the effects of actions, Ananda, as to the person here who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids all stealing of what is not given, who avoids any misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, and all idle & empty gossip, who is neither envious nor jealous, is good-willed, and who is of right view, yet who at the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in a state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells: Either earlier - prior to this - such one also did evil actions to be felt as painful, or later - after this - such one did evil actions to be felt as pain, or at moment of death such one entered into & maintained wrong views! Because of one or more of these, right after death, such one is reborn in a bad state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells. But since such one also - here & now - has been one who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids taking anything that is not given, who avoids all misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, & all idle & empty gossip, who is neither envious nor jealous, who is of good will, & who holds right views, such one will experience the pleasant results of that good behaviour, either here and now, or in the next rebirth, or in some subsequent later existence... Comments: Behaviour (kamma) is almost always mixed: Sometimes good, sometimes bad! The later effects are therefore similarly mixed: Sometimes pleasure, sometimes pain... Good begets good and dilutes & delays evil. Evil begets evil and dilutes & delays good! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The great speech on Action. MN 136 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn136.html A figure illustrating the delayed overlapping & interfering result of mixed kamma is included here. Death may happen at any point of time along the X-axis... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51664 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana nidive Hi Tep, > Tep: The words "to be seen as it actually is with right discernment" > may sound easy like something everyone is capable to do right now ! > According to these suttas, it does not require purification of > virtues (Vinaya and Patimokkha) or purification of consciousness > (Samatha or Jhanas). It may seem that there is nothing to do more > than just keep on reminding ourselves, in all situations, the > following verse: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is > not what I am.', then one day the five aggregates are going to be > clearly seen as they actually are with our right understanding! A > person who believes so may be tempted to think that Nibbana is near BELIEVING in not-self is not a teaching of the Buddha. It is nothing but a manifestation of clinging to rites and rituals. It's just like what Christians do everyday to remind themselves: "Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. He died on the Cross for me. I am saved from this wretched and sinful life." Regards, Swee Boon 51665 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, Hal (and all) - I read and reread your post (# 51653) and found no major points that I disagreed with. The minor disagreements are not insignificant, though. > Hal: When speaking of the "growing of disenchantment" towards all > formations, the Buddha is referring to the higher levels of insight > occurring at the sixth level of purification, known as the > _Purification of Knowledge and Vision of the Way_. This stage >heralds the onset of fruition knowledge. This is not something >easily attained, least of all by thinking a set of correct propositions. ... Tep: You may say that again and again (nonstop, please) so that disbelievers may oneday get it. I'd like to add that "the higher levels of insight" are near the end, not at the beginning near the intellectual level (similar to what Matheesha and Howard have said). >Hal: On the contrary, _Samma-dhitti_ is available only to those who >have overcome the taints (at least temporarily) sufficient to >achieve the stage of equanimity towards _all_ formations. Tep: You mean samma-ditthi = the noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path(as defined by MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta)? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > Hal: ... there is a long way between such intellectual > understandings and musings and the liberating knowledge that gives > rise to authentic right view. This journey is started, experienced > and realized by first establishing the four foundations ... Tep: I assume that the "authentic right view" you mention here is again the samma-ditthi that pertains to the Path, as define by MN 117. How would you explain "this journey" with respect to the practice of the Eightfold Path ? > Hal: > In short, letting go of "misunderstanding" does not in itself lead > directly to right view, nor is wrong view genuinely overcome by > musing about it. Neither are correct statements right view. One can > still have wrong view and make correct statements. Neither is a > conceptually correct understanding of right view, the same as right > view; one can have a conceptually correct understanding and still > have wrong view. We should be careful neither to confuse _samma > dhitti_ with correct propositions about right view nor the correct > conceptual understanding about these propositions. >Talking about the path is not walking it. Tep: You concluding remarks are loud like a thunder. Very well said ! Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Tep & all, > > "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows > disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with > perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with > consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through > dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the > knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the > holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this > world.' [endquote](SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta ) > > > Tep: Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may > let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? > (snipped) 51666 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jonoabb Hi JJ Jaran Jai wrote: >I have been busy with other things. It took up most of my time >whne I am in Bangkok. Good news for me is that I will be moving >back to Thailand beginning of next year. I should be able to >find some time to visit the foundation on weekends. > > This is indeed good news. I look forward to seeing you on our visits to Bangkok. Some of us are planning to be there in February when Nina and Lodewijk will be visiting. >Was it that long ago 2001? Next is 2007? We can always hope. >This year Khun Elle (Fongchan) kindly signed me and my father >up, but in the end, it did not work out... :-( > > Yes, 2007, with a trip to Sri Lanka in June next year (2006) in the meantime. Regards Jon 51667 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... > Swee: > BELIEVING in not-self is not a teaching of the Buddha. It is nothing > but a manifestation of clinging to rites and rituals. > > It's just like what Christians do everyday to remind themselves: > "Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. He died on the Cross for me. I am saved > from this wretched and sinful life." > Tep: Very clever analogy, Swee ! Wram regards, Tep ===== 51668 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:03am Subject: not mixing-up nama and rupa lbidd2 Hi all, Here are some questions. When you touch something hard is the touch sensation body consciousness or hardness (earth element)? If body consciousness, is there any additional experience that is earth element? Similarly, when you see visible data is there a visual sensation comparable to touch sensation? If eye consciousness is visual sensation is there any additional experience that is visible data? Vism.XV,41: Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as sugarcane or sesamum, the visible-data element as the [sugarcane] mill or the [sesamum] wheel rod, and the eye-consciousness element as the sugarcane juice or the sesamum oil. Likewise, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and so on. L: Rupa is not part of our experience like consciousness is. It is inferred. Larry 51669 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:08am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana lbidd2 Tep: "How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)?" Tep, you're an idiot. Slap! Larry ps: Zen approach ;-o 51670 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Not 100% confident of reaching Nibbana - Sceptical Doubt? nidive Hi Antony, > I am confident that the Buddha was enlightened. However I am far > from 100% confident that I can ever reach Nibbana rather than mired > in the animal realm. Is that simply vicikiccha (sceptical doubt)? > Or is my doubt mired in self-view? Maybe you have the same thoughts as the deva Kamada? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-02-006-ao0.html [Kamada:] So hard it is to do, Lord, It's so very hard to do! [Buddha:] But still they do what's hard to do, Who steady themselves with virtue. For one pursuing homelessness, Content arrives, and with it joy. [Kamada:] So hard it is to get, Lord, This content of which you speak! [Buddha:] But still they get what's hard to get, Who delight in a tranquil mind. The mind of those, both day and night, Delights in its development. [Kamada:] So hard it is to tame, Lord, This mind of which you speak! [Buddha:] But still they tame what's hard to tame, Who delight in senses at peace. Cutting through mortality's net, The nobles, Kamada, proceed. [Kamada:] So hard it is to go, Lord, On this path that gets so rough! [Buddha:] Still nobles, Kamada, proceed On paths both rough and hard to take. Those who are less than noble fall On their heads when the path gets rough. But for nobles the path is smooth — For nobles smooth out what is rough! Translator's note This plaintive cry of the deva Kamada, concerning the difficulty of Buddhist practice, will resonate with almost anyone who has embarked on the temporary homelessness of a retreat at IMS or elsewhere. The steady reply of the Buddha here admonishes Kamada to overcome his weaknesses and find the nobility within himself to tread the noble path. The tone of this poem is so typical of the approach the Buddha displays throughout the Pali texts — compassionate yet firm, reasoned but profoundly inspiring. The progression is also characteristic — from virtue to joy, tranquillity to diligent development, and finally cutting through the snares of death and rebirth and proceeding to undying nibbana. Kamada is reminded that others have done, gotten and tamed what he is having such difficulty doing, getting and taming. Others have taken the hard path to the goal, and all he lacks is the resolve, the hero's determination, to forge ahead despite the obstacles. The lyrical almost sing-song quality of the verse has been hopefully retained by translating it in something like its original meter of eight syllables per line. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 51671 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:25am Subject: Dukkha is "Stress"? buddhatrue Hi All, There has been some controversy about Ven. Thanissaro's choice of using the word `stress' for the Pali word "dukkha" in suttas, instead of the more common translation of "suffering". Since we all quote from Ven. Thanissaro quite often, and words affect thoughts, I think it is an important issue to consider. Therefore, I am going to type out the relevant sections of an article I found today in my English papers, for your consideration. Knowledge is power! (I should be writing an English test on "The Necklace" but I'm just too stressed out! ;-)): "Thanks to Americans, `Stress' is Everywhere" By Richard A. Schweder New York Times Along with Coke, CNN and Visa, stress is rapidly spreading throughout the world. Or at least the word for it is. In Tokyo, "stress" is enunciated in the midst of a stream of Japanese: "Shujin wa STRESS gatamaru to oorippolu naru," a Japanese housewife complains to a friend. (My husband becomes irritable when stress builds up.") On the streets of Moscow, the term suddenly pops up in the middle of this sentence: "V sostoyanii STRESS u menya vsyo valitsya iz ruk." ("In this state of stress, I can't do anything right.") The English syllable is articulated by Hindi speakers in New Delhi, by Chinese speakers in Taiwan, by Spanish speakers in Seville. "Stress" seems to be on loan to most of the major languages of the world. The history of epidemiology of the spread of the English word "stress" has yet to be documented, although it is a foreign entry – a borrowed term – in etymological lexicons for Russian, Polish and Bulgarian and in Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary… "Fortunately, there is an alternative theory to explain the international embrace of "stress." The idea, popular among linguists and ironists, is that the word is exquisitely vague and elusive, unlike, say, "angst," which points to the psyche or "Weltschmerz," which point to the world. When someone says, "I am stressed out," it isn't clear whether the source of suffering is inside or outside, subjective or objective, mental or physical. The cause of stress may be a harrowing event, a tormented mental state, a physiological impairment or just some chronic sense of cosmic uneasiness. No one knows. Imprecise and evasive language may be a disaster for science, but it is a boon in everyday life. "I am stressed out" is non-accusatory, apolitical and detached. 51672 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi James, > 2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present dhammas > every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha > emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that > awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the > constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the `Absolute > Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to > liberation. Is it really possible to be aware of the present dhammas every nanosecond literally? Or is this just a figurative way of saying that one is aware of whatever one perceives right here and now? > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is > allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present > moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to > recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, in my > opinion. So, I believe that contemplation of the past and future > aggregates is of secondary importance. I think contemplation of past, present and future aggregates should be given equal importance and emphasis. Without contemplating on past aggregates, one chases after the past. Without contemplating on future aggregates, one places expectations on the future. Without contemplating on present aggregates, one is taken in with regard to present qualities. Regards, Swee Boon 51673 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/22/05 11:05:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Here are some questions. When you touch something hard is the touch > sensation body consciousness or hardness (earth element)? If body > consciousness, is there any additional experience that is earth element? > Similarly, when you see visible data is there a visual sensation > comparable to touch sensation? If eye consciousness is visual sensation > is there any additional experience that is visible data? > ==================== My opinion only: 1) Question: When you touch something hard is the touch sensation body consciousness or hardness (earth element)? Answer: When hardness is experiential content, the sense door is body door. That is, the medium for that experience is body door. There are three distinguishable but inseparable phenomena involved in so called contact-with-hardness: The hardness content (which is what *I* mean when I refer to such "touch sensation"), the body-door as medium, and the (experiential) presence of the hardness content, that is, the so called consciousness of it. 2) Question: Similarly, when you see visible data is there a visual sensation comparable to touch sensation? Answer: I'm not sure I understand the question. When seeing, the experiential content is visible data, and the medium is eye door. 3) Question: If eye consciousness is visual sensation is there any additional experience that is visible data? Answer: Eye consciousness is not visual sensation. Eye consciousness is the (experiential) presence of visual sensation/data/content. Experiential content is one thing, and its presence is another. They are not the same, but they are mutually dependent, inseparable, and never existing one without the other. They are *so* close! Because they always co-occur when they occur at all - because they are mutually dependent, we sometimes identify them. That is a monist identification, an extreme. The other extreme is to think of visual data and consciousness of that content to be completely separate phenomena. This other extreme comes about by identifying mere experiential presence with an alleged self-existing knowing/knower/cognitive agent. That is a dualistic splitting. The nondualist middle view recognizes distinguishable-but-inseparable, interdependent phenomena that arise, but never alone, never self-existently. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51674 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:51am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Andrew T, > AT: Past aggregates have ceased to exist and future aggregates have > never existed, so when we contemplate 'past and future aggregates', > what precisely are we contemplating? Concepts. > Is it important for us to know the difference between existent and > non-existent when we do these contemplation exercises? The Buddha never bothered about this question at all. > If, as you suggest, there is no worldling 'practice' that can > possibly 'catch' present realities, doesn't that suggest to you that > present realities can't be controlled? Realities control realities themselves! > AT: When you talk about conditions being nurtured, I suspect you > must be referring to *future* conditions. Correct? So what's your > interpretation of the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131); > "Let not a person revive the past > or on the future build his hopes; > for the past has been left behind > and the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > each presently arisen state. > Let him know that and be sure of it, > invincibly, unshakably." [Bh Bodhi transl]. You are confused! "On the future build his hopes": This is talking about craving for what's in the future. It has worldly kamma as it's objective. In one who develops the Noble Eightfold Path, he abandons worldly kamma. The "conditions" being nurtured has got nothing to do with worldly kamma. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#diversity "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma." — AN IV.232 "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." — AN IV.237 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 51675 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:08am Subject: Re: Dukkha is "Stress"? nidive Hi James, I find that stress is the more appropriate translation for dukkha. When I see how fast mental states arise and fall away, the correct word to describe that phenomenon is stress and not suffering. Personally, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations are of a higher quality than that of Bhikkhu Bodhi's. Regards, Swee Boon 51676 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:23am Subject: Re: Dukkha is "Stress"? buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James, > > I find that stress is the more appropriate translation for dukkha. > > When I see how fast mental states arise and fall away, the correct > word to describe that phenomenon is stress and not suffering. > > Personally, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations are of a > higher quality than that of Bhikkhu Bodhi's. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > Okay, I wouldn't say I disagree. It is just important to realize that the word "stress" is very ambiguous. But I do disagree, in a general sense, that Thanisarro's translations are of a higher quality than Bhikkhu Bodhi's. Metta, James 51677 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Swee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > 2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present dhammas > > every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha > > emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that > > awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the > > constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the `Absolute > > Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to > > liberation. > > Is it really possible to be aware of the present dhammas every > nanosecond literally? James: Yes, I think so. Or is this just a figurative way of saying that > one is aware of whatever one perceives right here and now? James: I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the concentration ability to do such a thing. > > > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is > > allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present > > moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to > > recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, in my > > opinion. So, I believe that contemplation of the past and future > > aggregates is of secondary importance. > > I think contemplation of past, present and future aggregates should be > given equal importance and emphasis. James: Okay, but I asked you for a sutta reference for this proposal in a past post and you didn't provide one. Just show me a sutta reference and I will concede the point. > > Without contemplating on past aggregates, one chases after the past. > > Without contemplating on future aggregates, one places expectations on > the future. > > Without contemplating on present aggregates, one is taken in with > regard to present qualities. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > Metta, James 51678 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and Swee, etc.) - This is the first time we are looking at the "fine prints" with magnifying glasses. Some of these issues are beyond our levels, i.e. we do not have personal experiences to back up our analyses/beliefs. >James: I'm afraid I must disagree with this statement for two >reasons: >1. To use the word `catch' implies attachment to the experience of the present moment. A better word choice would be `aware' of present dhammas (I don't like `realities' either because dhammas are also non-self). I know- picky, picky ;-)- but our language does affect our views. >2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present dhammas every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the `Absolute Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to liberation. Tep: I agree with your picky choice of 'aware' in place of 'catching' the present moment. Now, about being able to be aware every nonosecond I am not so sure that is implied in right concentration. Please give me a real-world example you know of. .................................. > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, in my opinion. Tep : To be aware of the present moment at times is great enough for the non-Arahants. As s/he progresses more and more towards the Arahantship, the number of missed fires will be exponentially approaching zero. That's why it is not that dead serious. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Andrew), > > Tep: Perhaps, it is not that dead serious for us to have to catch > the > present realities every nanosecond. > > James: I'm afraid I must disagree with this statement for two > reasons: > (snipped) 51679 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: "I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the concentration ability to do such a thing." Joop: because I'm taking the Abhidhamma serious too, we had to know it's not a neuroscientific handbook. Numbers in old India were always exaggerations. If you want to be literal, you can better say "The mind can be aware of present dhammas every millisecond." I'm only writing this because it's a rare opportunity to disagree with you Metta Joop 51680 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-Card from Delhi (was, e-Card from Benares (was, Question for A. Sujin)) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai wrote: > > Dear Joop: > > Glad to answer your questions. > ... Dear Jaran Yes, I have mudita with you when you are glad being with spiritual friends. I was not annoyed by your mentioning 'foundation', I wanted to make a pedagogogical remark because I got the impression you had a personal discussion with Jon or had at least an 'insider-discussion' about a foundation. My opinion is that DSG is a public forum, all members must understand all messages and participate in all threads. More general there are two rules I'm trying to introduce in DSG: - No family-like communication, only personal remarks when they had directly to do with spiritual development. - Clear differentiation in messages that are within the frame of reference of Buddhaghosa/Sujin ànd messages about that frame of reference. So now I understand better what you meant and why you send this message in DSG Mudita Joop 51681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - You are now famous as being the first Abhidhammika ever, who curses and physically attacks another member !! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Tep: "How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may > let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)?" > > Tep, you're an idiot. Slap! > > Larry > > ps: Zen approach ;-o > I am stunned ! Why are you so aggressive? { :<( Kind regards, Tep =========== 51682 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment matheesha333 Hi James, Swee, Tep, > > > J: 2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present > dhammas > > > every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha > > > emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that > > > awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the > > > constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the > `Absolute > > > Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to > > > liberation. M: Agreed. Right concentration forms the base upon which Insight (vipassana) practice is built. The results of insight practice would be much more quicker when jhanas are developed. > > Is it really possible to be aware of the present dhammas every > > nanosecond literally? > > James: Yes, I think so. M: Yes, it is. I wouldnt comment much about the actual time measure (nano, mili - becuase it is not possible IMO to be mindful and be aware of a sense of time, which is only illusory) but it is possible without a shade of doubt to be aware right through the day, dhammas arising and passing away, moment to moment. But only when the mind if cleaned temporarily free of defilements with strong 'concentration' (I disagree with the use of this term - concentration IMO leads to Samadhi, which is a concentraTED 'one- pointed' mind, which is brought about by concentraTING). J: That is how the > Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the > concentration ability to do such a thing. M: Initially, yes. I feel now, there is only the empty husk of theory. In ancient Sri Lanka it was the meditation masters who would debate abhidhamma in their forest abodes and mountain caves, not the village monks who were moslty theorists. > > > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is > > > allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present > > > moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to > > > recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, > in my > > > opinion. M: You cant be mindful of future aggregates. You cant be mindful of past aggregates ..because they dont exist. Any projection of the future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a thought in the present moment. That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it is well covered under thought (in the present moment) in the suttas. metta Matheesha 51683 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry) - In a message dated 10/22/05 2:58:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, Larry - > > You are now famous as being the first Abhidhammika ever, who curses > and physically attacks another member !! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" > wrote: > > > >Tep: "How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may > >let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)?" > > > >Tep, you're an idiot. Slap! > > > >Larry > > > >ps: Zen approach ;-o > > > > I am stunned ! Why are you so aggressive? { :<( > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > ========================= Tep, you may be unfamiliar with Zen dialogues, but in any case, Larry is JOKING! There isn't an iota of aggression intended in what he wrote. Please, believe me - it was nothing but lighthearted joking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51684 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: Dukkha is "Stress"? Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Reason buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Swee - Thanissaro Bhikkhu's contribution to wide-spread online discussion of Buddhism should not be underestimated. We all have free access to the fruits of his hard work. Unlike other translations who make money from selling their books, the Venerable did it free of charge. Yet, he has got only criticisms ! The Venerable explains his choices of English words for dukkha as follows. "No single English word adequately captures the full depth, range, and subtlety of the crucial Pali term dukkha. Over the years, many translations of the word have been used "stress," "unsatisfactoriness," "suffering," etc.). Each has its own merits in a given context. There is value in not letting oneself get too comfortable with any one particular translation of the word, since the entire thrust of Buddhist practice is the broadening and deepening of one's understanding of dukkha until dukkha's roots are finally exposed and eradicated once and for all. One helpful rule of thumb: as soon as you think you've found the single best translation for the word, think again: for no matter how you describe dukkha, it's always deeper, subtler, and more unsatisfactory than that." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Swee Boon, > 51685 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 0:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Larry) - It is getting more difficult these days to distinguish humor from vulgarism. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Larry) - > (snipped) > ========================= > Tep, you may be unfamiliar with Zen dialogues, but in any case, Larry is JOKING! There isn't an iota of aggression intended in what he wrote . Please, believe me - it was nothing but lighthearted joking. > Are Zen Buddhists fond of practical jokes? Regards, Tep ======= 51686 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:31pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Andrew (and Swee)- I have found it easy to get washed away by the sea of messages at DSG --- I almost forgot to reply to your post # 51651. My following comments may be considered as additional thoughts to Swee's (message # 51674) > > AT: Past aggregates have ceased to exist and future aggregates have > never existed, so when we contemplate 'past and future aggregates', > what precisely are we contemplating? Is it important for us to know > the difference between existent and non-existent when we do these > contemplation exercises? Tep: We're contemplating on the three charcteristics of the five aggregates. These characteristics are true for the various kinds of aggregates, everywhere and all the time -- past, future, or present. That's why their contemplation was considered useful by the Buddha. Don't let the pannatti illusions that are created by the theoretical Abhidhammikas confuse you. It is not relevant to consider existence; only the characteristics of the dhamma are the object of the present-moment citta when we do dhammanupassana (see DN 22). The direct benefits are clearly disenchantment of the aggregates because we come to know their drawbacks (the way they really are). ............................................. > > AT: If, as you suggest, there is no worldling 'practice' that can > possibly 'catch' present realities, doesn't that suggest to you that > present realities can't be controlled? > Tep: Yes, it does. But, it doesn't suggest to me that I cannot direct my mind in such a way to develop certain kusala dhammas (e.g. the seven factors of awakening - bojjhanga) in order that a certain mental state can be attained. " ... there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. " AN IX.36 ............................................... > AT: When you talk about conditions being nurtured, I suspect you must > be referring to *future* conditions. Correct? So what's your > interpretation of the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131); > "Let not a person revive the past > or on the future build his hopes; > for the past has been left behind > and the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > each presently arisen state. > Let him know that and be sure of it, > invincibly, unshakably." [Bh Bodhi transl]. > AN IX.36 Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption. Tep: This sutta emphasizes the value of the "present moment" so that the monk would become atapi, sampajjano, satima in the four foundations (satipatthana) in the present moment. It is not the same issue as when the five aggregates are the monk's object of satipatthana, regardless whether they are pertaining to the future or past, near or far, good or bad, course or refine (as explained above). I hope the above answers are useful to you to some extent. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thanks for your comments, which have given rise to a few more > questions below. > (snipped) 51687 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 10/22/05 3:39:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Are Zen Buddhists fond of practical jokes? > ===================== In the Ch'an Linchi (or Zen Rinzai) school, the use of shouts, slaps, nose twistings, and other such things as triggers for a person who, due to deep meditation, is ripe for insight or even an enlightenment experience are basic elements. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51688 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Larry) - Thank you for taking time off your meditation to perform the pacifier's duty. > Tep: > > Are Zen Buddhists fond of practical jokes? > > ===================== > In the Ch'an Linchi (or Zen Rinzai) school, the use of shouts, slaps, > nose twistings, and other such things as triggers for a person who, due to > deep meditation, is ripe for insight or even an enlightenment experience are > basic elements. > Tep : That's strange, but it proves your point that Larry is not a vulgar person. {:-->) Regards, Tep ======== 51689 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Dear Math - It is becoming clearer to me (unless I have been hallucinated) that you are among a very few DSG members who have real experiences of tranquillity meditation(samatha) plus vipassana. The proof of the pudding is seen in your following remarks : Matheesha: 1. Right concentration forms the base upon which Insight (vipassana) practice is built. The results of insight practice would be much more quicker when jhanas are developed. 2. It is possible without a shade of doubt to be aware right through the day, dhammas arising and passing away, moment to moment. But only when the mind if cleaned temporarily free of defilements with strong 'concentration'... 3. Any projection of the future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a thought in the present moment. That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it is well covered under thought ... Tep: Why and how is thought useful in meditation? Except for samma sankappo I have not seen any suttas that discuss usefulness of other thoughts. "Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, whoever thinks evil thoughts, related to the household life, is following no path at all, smitten with delusory things. He's incapable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. But whoever -- walking, standing, sitting, or lying down -- overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti4.html Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James, Swee, Tep, > (snipped) > > M: You cant be mindful of future aggregates. You cant be mindful of > past aggregates ..because they dont exist. Any projection of the > future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a > thought in the present moment. > > That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it > is well covered under thought (in the present moment) in the suttas. > > metta > > Matheesha > 51690 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's View on the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Here is one paragraph from The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter VI RIGHT MINDFULNESS (Samma Sati) : "It might be assumed that we are always aware of the present, but this is a mirage. Only seldom do we become aware of the present in the precise way required by the practice of mindfulness. In ordinary consciousness the mind begins a cognitive process with some impression given in the present, but it does not stay with it. Instead it uses the immediate impression as a springboard for building blocks of mental constructs which remove it from the sheer facticity of the datum. The cognitive process is generally interpretative. The mind perceives its object free from conceptualization only briefly. Then, immediately after grasping the initial impression, it launches on a course of ideation by which it seeks to interpret the object to itself, to make it intelligible in terms of its own categories and assumptions. To bring this about the mind posits concepts, joins the concepts into constructs -- sets of mutually corroborative concepts -- then weaves the constructs together into complex interpretative schemes. In the end the original direct experience has been overrun by ideation and the presented object appears only dimly through dense layers of ideas and views, like the moon through a layer of clouds. [endquote] I thought James and Matheesha might be interested too. Regards, Tep ========= 51691 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Larry), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Howard (and Larry) - > > It is getting more difficult these days to distinguish humor from > vulgarism. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > Hi, Tep (and Larry) - > > > (snipped) > > > ========================= > > Tep, you may be unfamiliar with Zen dialogues, but in any case, > Larry is JOKING! There isn't an iota of aggression intended in what he > wrote . Please, believe me - it was nothing but lighthearted joking. > > > > Are Zen Buddhists fond of practical jokes? James: LOL! I find this question just so gosh darn funny!! Tep, I have emphasised over and over again in this group about how I am strongly influenced by Zen (I might not even belong in this group??) and have you seen hardly any of my posts without a joke in it? Actually, I am not even satisfied with one of my posts unless it has a joke of some sort in it. Yes, Zen Buddhists are very fond of practical jokes. And I really loved Larry's post to you, for it's shocking, humorous, truthful, Zen aspect- but I decided I should let it be rather than comment. After all, the shock and the struggle for understanding would be lost if I showed my approval :-). > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > Metta, James 51692 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana matheesha333 Hi KenH, I'm glad that you felt that some of our discussion was useful. I am motivated to write a bit more, and the pleasure of writing is mine as I have more time on my hands now as well. I'm trying to avoid getting caught up in details, but attempt to aim for a bigger picture. If the process gets frustrating please let me know, because that is not helpful and is not productive to you and deteriorating to my practice. I hope we can continue smoothly. Your equanimity has been impressive. KH> I practised formal meditation over a period of 26 years before > joining DSG and learning about the Abhidhamma and the ancient > commentaries. What I am beginning to understand, only now, is why > some people persist with their formal practises even after becoming > familiar with those texts. M: I see. IMO the number of years a person has meditated has very little to do with how much progress he has made, especially if his instructors have been poor (yes, good theory is very important - perhaps more importantly good theory leading to good practice). For me formal practice shows me what reality is now, as it is happening. Everything else is imagination, or a cheap imitation of the real thing. Formal practice has no disagreements with the suttas and actually makes them easier to understand (need for more assistance from sources of dubious authenticity becomes somewhat superfluous, because we are learning from the dhammas themselves which is the most acurate source). The dhammas dont need a lense to look at them through - this is anatta etc, but it should be visible from the dhammas themselves - if formal practice is properly done, it is. If we apply a lense it will be invariably flawed/skewed because it is not someting understood from direct insight but rather by logial thinking and learning (much like learning the taste of oranges from books) and will colour whatever insight you might achieve. Its not possible to think yourself into understanding anatta, any more than you can think yourself into experiencing the taste of oranges. If you just taste it simply, how much studying about it do you need? Very little: enough to know that there is a thing known as an orange,what it basically looks like, how and where to find it and peel it (basic knowledge and formal practice instructions). As for the exact nature of the taste (panna/insight)- that can be left to the tasting. The alternative is to learn as much as possible about the taste (an apporximation only to the real thing) and go around with your tongue out, forever hopeful that you will have a much better chance of identifying it when it hits your tongue, not knowing how to find an orange, much less peel it (ie-formal practice). -I'm ofcourse of the idea that it is not possible for the untrained mind (in formal practice) to understand the taste. Untrained in what? Please see that sutta below which asks why some people gain insight slowly (lifetimes?) and quickly (7 years?) ----------------------- 'We will abide in a secluded dwelling a forest, the root of a tree, mountain grotto or cave, a charnel ground, a forest jungle, an open space, or a heap of straw. Returning from the alms round, after the meal is over, we will sit in a cross-legged posture, mindfulness established in front. Dispelling covetousness for the world. Will abide with a mind free of covetousness. Dispelling anger will abide with a mind free of anger. With the perception of light will abide sloth and torpor dispelled from the mind. Will abide appeasing the self, dispelling restlessness and worry. Will abide dispelling doubts, about merit that should and should not be done' http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/039-mahaassapura-sutta-e1.htm M: Now why would anyone want to sit cross legged in a jungle, doing all this dispelling, when he could just as well go about attaining nibbaana from home? The need to go into a jungle is to develop so many mental factors needed for gaining insight. Otherwise the existence of monkhood is meaningless. This is why im suggesting formal practice is necessary. KH: I agree that there is no need for anyone to base their understanding > purely on an unassisted reading of the suttas. I would add that there > could be no reason for doing such a thing. Are you saying there is? > M: Yes, if you based yourself on the suttas, (alongside formal practice- which means a good teacher as well - these factors clarifying the suttas), the *emphasis* of the factors of the path in the suttas will become clearer. I see much emphasis on accumilations, and conditions in your model, which is not at all present in the suttas. It has its own internal logical consistency far different from your model. I guess that difference is what we are exploring. ---------------- M: > If this whole idea of panna being transfered from one moment to the next were possible there would be another mountain of avijja being transfered as well. That makes it somewhat improbable (to say the least) that occasional noting of phenomena would countract that. ------------------- >KH: Again, I don't understand your opposition to the idea of panna as a >conditioned dhamma. Nor do I understand how panna can be developed if it is not accumulated in every moment and passed on to the next. Otherwise, all our good works would be lost as soon as an evil or unskilful moment occurred. M: I'm not opposing the idea that panna is a conditioned dhamma! The idea of panna based on random moments of satipatthana, based on learning (which is skewed understanding of reality) is not practicable IMO. The idea of this accumilation, accumilating more than avijja is not possible, which would be happening each moment there is no satipatthana (which is a lot). Or to put it in another way ,avijja would accumilate much more. I say that that the only possibility is to be aware of the present moment right through the day, through a mind which is developed through formal practice to be able to do that. A mind which is free from 'thinking' (relatively- due to samadhi) but is mostly in direct experiencing/satipattaana mode all day long. This is the only way to counteract avijja and is in concordance with the sutta model of practice, but not k.sujin's (as far as I know). Ok my friend, enough for today metta Matheesha ----------------------------- CHAPTER XVII ON PRACTICES' 2) Practices (b) Brethren, there are these four practices. What four? What four? Painful practice resulting in sluggish intuition, painful practice resulting in quick intuition, pleasant practice resulting in sluggish intuition and pleasant practice resulting in quick intuition. Brethren, what is painful practice resulting in sluggish intuition ? Brethren, herein a certain man is by nature very lustful and always feels sharp physical and mental pain that is born of lust. He is also by nature very malicious and always feels physical and mental pain that is born of 194 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 150 ill-will. He is also by nature very infatuated and always feels physical and mental pain that is born of infatuation. In him these five controlling faculties show themselves in a dull form, namely : the controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration and of insight. Owing to the dullness*' of these five controlling faculties, he slowly attains Path concentration *' for the extinction of the intoxicants. Brethren, this is said to be painful practice resulting in sluggish intuition. Brethren, what is painful practice resulting in quick intuition ? Herein, a certain man is by nature very lustful, who always feels (as above)..... born of ill-will and ignorance. To him these five controlling faculties show themselves in an excessive form, to wit : the controlling faculty of faith (as above down to-insight). Owing to the excess* of these five controlling faculties, he quickly attains to Path-concentration for the extinction of the intoxicants. This is said to be painful practice resulting in quick intuition. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/017-patipadavaggo-e2.htm > 51693 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:54pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James (and Swee, etc.) - > > This is the first time we are looking at the "fine prints" with magnifying > glasses. Some of these issues are beyond our levels, i.e. we do not > have personal experiences to back up our analyses/beliefs. James: Well, perhaps you should speak only for yourself because I do speak from experience. I have experienced deep meditation on several occassions where I was able to be aware of dhammas as they arose and fell in quick succession. Was it in terms of nanoseconds or whatever? I din't have a stopwatch handy so I could say that! ;- )) > > >James: I'm afraid I must disagree with this statement for two > >reasons: > > >1. To use the word `catch' implies attachment to the experience of > the present moment. A better word choice would be `aware' of > present dhammas (I don't like `realities' either because dhammas are > also non-self). I know- picky, picky ;-)- but our language does > affect our views. > > >2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present dhammas > every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha > emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that > awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the > constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the `Absolute > Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to > liberation. > > Tep: I agree with your picky choice of 'aware' in place of 'catching' the > present moment. > > Now, about being able to be aware every nonosecond I am not so > sure that is implied in right concentration. Please give me a real- world > example you know of. James: When sitting in meditation, and the mind is concentrated, there can be awareness of arising and falling phenomenon by the nanosecond- including the mind door. (BTW, this experience can be very terrifying for those without an establishment of calm/detachment.) > > .................................. > > > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is > allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute present moment, > that contemplation of the past and future will fail to recognize the > qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, in my opinion. > > Tep : To be aware of the present moment at times is great enough for > the non-Arahants. As s/he progresses more and more towards the > Arahantship, the number of missed fires will be exponentially > approaching zero. That's why it is not that dead serious. James: Well, of course you have a point here. I was speaking in absolute terms (I forget- Sarah isn't here to jump on my case at any second!! LOL!) The type of awareness I am describing doesn't have to be practiced at all times for there to be benefit. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========== Metta, James ps. May I also kindly suggest, that due to exposure to the KS interpretation of 'seeing the present moment' (which, honestly, makes my skin crawl), there can be a built up conditioning against the concept of being aware of the present moment? I am not a KS devotee when I sing the praises of being aware of the present moment. My approach/thinking is much different in emphasis. It is important to not let adverse conditioning turn the mind off to essential Buddhist teachings. 51694 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:57pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > James: "I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can > be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the > Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the concentration > ability to do such a thing." > > Joop: because I'm taking the Abhidhamma serious too, we had to know > it's not a neuroscientific handbook. Numbers in old India were always > exaggerations. If you want to be literal, you can better say "The > mind can be aware of present dhammas every millisecond." > > I'm only writing this because it's a rare opportunity to disagree > with you James: LOL! How cute! Well, I am glad you finally disagreed with me...and got that off you chest! ;-)) I understand what you are saying and I am not trying to be that literal. I don't know if it is in milliseconds or nanoseconds or whatever...but it is pretty darn fast! ;-) > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James 51695 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:03pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Matheesha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi James, Swee, Tep, > > > > > > J: 2.It is VERY dead serious for us to be aware of the present > > dhammas > > > > every nanosecond (at least at times). This is why the Buddha > > > > emphasized Right Concentration so strongly so often, so that > > > > awareness can stay with the present moment to be aware of the > > > > constant flux and flow. I believe that being aware of the > > `Absolute > > > > Right Now Moment' is the only way to free the mind and lead to > > > > liberation. > > M: Agreed. Right concentration forms the base upon which Insight > (vipassana) practice is built. The results of insight practice would > be much more quicker when jhanas are developed. > > > > Is it really possible to be aware of the present dhammas every > > > nanosecond literally? > > > > James: Yes, I think so. > > M: Yes, it is. I wouldnt comment much about the actual time measure > (nano, mili - becuase it is not possible IMO to be mindful and be > aware of a sense of time, which is only illusory) but it is possible > without a shade of doubt to be aware right through the day, dhammas > arising and passing away, moment to moment. But only when the mind > if cleaned temporarily free of defilements with > strong 'concentration' (I disagree with the use of this term - > concentration IMO leads to Samadhi, which is a concentraTED 'one- > pointed' mind, which is brought about by concentraTING). > > J: That is how the > > Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the > > concentration ability to do such a thing. > > M: Initially, yes. I feel now, there is only the empty husk of > theory. In ancient Sri Lanka it was the meditation masters who would > debate abhidhamma in their forest abodes and mountain caves, not the > village monks who were moslty theorists. > > > > > James: Yes, contemplation of past and future aggregates is > > > > allowable, but if one is not ever aware of the absolute > present > > > > moment, that contemplation of the past and future will fail to > > > > recognize the qualities of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, > > in my > > > > opinion. > > M: You cant be mindful of future aggregates. You cant be mindful of > past aggregates ..because they dont exist. Any projection of the > future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a > thought in the present moment. > > That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it > is well covered under thought (in the present moment) in the suttas. > > metta > > Matheesha > I agree with every word of your post and am thankful for your reply. When I read your post I just had to say to myself, "Thank goodness someone understands what I am saying!" ;-)) Metta, James 51696 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Matheesha , frankly, are you a monk? buddhistmedi... Hi, Math - I , again, found myself nodding in agreement with everything you said to Ken H in the message # 51692. Your style of explaining is very similar to those few monks I have known (and knew). So, I can't help it - I have to ask you this : Matheesha , frankly, are you a monk? [ I am not kidding.] Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi KenH, > (snipped) > > > 'We will abide in a secluded dwelling a forest, the root of a tree, > mountain grotto or cave, a charnel ground, a forest jungle, an open > space, or a heap of straw. Returning from the alms round, after the > meal is over, we will sit in a cross-legged posture, mindfulness > established in front. Dispelling covetousness for the world. Will > abide with a mind free of covetousness. Dispelling anger will abide > with a mind free of anger. With the perception of light will abide > sloth and torpor dispelled from the mind. Will abide appeasing the > self, dispelling restlessness and worry. Will abide dispelling > doubts, about merit that should and should not be done' > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/039-mahaassapura-sutta-e1.htm > > M: Now why would anyone want to sit cross legged in a jungle, doing > all this dispelling, when he could just as well go about attaining > nibbaana from home? The need to go into a jungle is to develop so > many mental factors needed for gaining insight. Otherwise the > existence of monkhood is meaningless. This is why im suggesting > formal practice is necessary. > > (snipped) > > M: I'm not opposing the idea that panna is a conditioned dhamma! The > idea of panna based on random moments of satipatthana, based on > learning (which is skewed understanding of reality) is not > practicable IMO. The idea of this accumilation, accumilating more > than avijja is not possible, which would be happening each moment > there is no satipatthana (which is a lot). Or to put it in another > way ,avijja would accumilate much more. I say that that the only > possibility is to be aware of the present moment right through the > day, through a mind which is developed through formal practice to be > able to do that. A mind which is free from 'thinking' (relatively- > due to samadhi) but is mostly in direct experiencing/satipattaana > mode all day long. This is the only way to counteract avijja and is > in concordance with the sutta model of practice, but not k.sujin's > (as far as I know). > > Ok my friend, enough for today > 51697 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: Dukkha is "Stress"? Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Reason buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James and Swee - > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu's contribution to wide-spread online discussion of > Buddhism should not be underestimated. We all have free access to > the fruits of his hard work. Unlike other translations who make money > from selling their books, the Venerable did it free of charge. Yet, he has > got only criticisms ! James: Oh goodness, he hasn't gotten only criticisms! Here you are praising him! No reason to be a drama queen about it! ;-)) > > The Venerable explains his choices of English words for dukkha as > follows. > > "No single English word adequately captures the full depth, range, and > subtlety of the crucial Pali term dukkha. Over the years, many > translations of the word have been > used "stress," "unsatisfactoriness," "suffering," etc.). Each has its own > merits in a given context. There is value in not letting oneself get too > comfortable with any one particular translation of the word, since the > entire thrust of Buddhist practice is the broadening and deepening of > one's understanding of dukkha until dukkha's roots are finally exposed > and eradicated once and for all. > > One helpful rule of thumb: as soon as you think you've found the single > best translation for the word, think again: for no matter how you > describe dukkha, it's always deeper, subtler, and more unsatisfactory > than that." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html James: Thank you for this quote. I hadn't read it before. But, again, I am not attacking Thanissaro Bhikkhu. He is obviously a far better Buddhist than myself (or is that just conceit working? Oh well....) I just thought that we should all give some extra attention to the First Noble Truth: Dukkha. So often, we just gleam it over and don't really try to understand it. Does "stress" make us understand it? Does "suffering" make us understand it? Does "unsatisfactioriness" make us understand it? Really, in my opinion, none of these feeble words make us understand it. We have to get beyond the words! That is what I was trying to emphasize- not an attack of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. (But, if he wants to take me on, I'm sure I could kick his a**! hehehehe...just kidding!!!) > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep Metta, James ps. Hi all- I am definitely starting to go over my limit of posts! I need to practice more and remain quiet like Howard. I don't want to be sucked into the DSG vortex again and again. 51698 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Tep (and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Was it in terms of nanoseconds > or whatever? I din't have a stopwatch handy so I could say that! ;- > )) I re-read this post and I realized that there are some typos in this sentence. The sentence should read: Was it in terms of naonseconds or whatever? I didn't have a stopwatch handy so I couldn't say that! ;-)) Metta, James ps. Almost nothing is worse than a joke told improperly! ;-)) 51699 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? lbidd2 Tep: "It is getting more difficult these days to distinguish humor from vulgarism." Hi Tep, It wasn't a joke. Are you now disenchanted? Larry 51700 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment matheesha333 Hi Tep, > It is becoming clearer to me (unless I have been hallucinated) that you > are among a very few DSG members who have real experiences of > tranquillity meditation(samatha) plus vipassana. M: I sincerely hope not, for all our sakes. But thank you Tep. I believe you must have the same experience to make such a statement! Tep: Why and how is thought useful in meditation? > Except for samma sankappo I have not seen any suttas that discuss > usefulness of other thoughts. M: Dear Tep, thoughts are more difficult to be mindful of, especially since they suck us into their content much more readily than sight/sound etc. But when in vipassana mode you can even watch these arising (difficult) and passing away (easier). They form part of the fabric of reality and the three characteristcs can be seen in them, and can serve as source to understand the same, along with the other sights,sounds etc of vipassana practice. Essentially you cannot leave one thing out, but rather the universality of the three charactics must be realised in its thundering implication - in the past, future and present, internally, externally,near or far - no place in the universe can you hide from it. Thoughts also form the substrate of practice as in the vitakkasantana sutta. The removal of thoughts containing craving,aversion and delusion is important. But this is more advanced practice, to be done when one has understood those three to some degree experientially. There are also purely contemplative practices: buddhanussati, dhammanussati etc the 10 anussatis which is just thinking after all. There are also methods to control anger for example: thinking this is worse than what my enemy could wish for me. Or to keep sila - the idea of being observed by davas etc. Also review and contemplation of the precepts. These are changing core concepts of how we view the world. Espeically the development of mundane right view. I think finally thoughts form the basis of understanding ones degree of progress. Whether self view exists, craving and aversion arises etc. I cant think of any more right now. There are probably a lot more. Am I a monk?! Am I a man in a yellow robe? Do all men in yellow robes explain things similarly?! When you deconstruct that image what do you have? Tep, why do you hang around this egroup so much? I hope you have a retreat planned for this year. :) metta Matheesha > The proof of the pudding is seen in your following remarks : > > Matheesha: > > 1. Right concentration forms the base upon which Insight (vipassana) > practice is built. The results of insight practice would be much more > quicker when jhanas are developed. > 2. It is possible without a shade of doubt to be aware right through the > day, dhammas arising and passing away, moment to moment. But only > when the mind if cleaned temporarily free of defilements with > strong 'concentration'... > 3. Any projection of the future or past is only in our imagination, and is > actually only a thought in the present moment. That is probably why the > Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it is well covered under > thought ... > > Tep: Why and how is thought useful in meditation? > Except for samma sankappo I have not seen any suttas that discuss > usefulness of other thoughts. > > "Whether walking, standing, > sitting, or lying down, > whoever thinks evil thoughts, > related to the household life, > is following no path at all, > smitten > with delusory things. > He's incapable, > a monk like this, > of touching superlative > self-awakening. > But whoever -- > walking, standing, > sitting, or lying down -- > overcomes thought, > delighting in the stilling of thought: > he's capable, > a monk like this, > of touching superlative > self-awakening. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti4.html > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > Hi James, Swee, Tep, > > > (snipped) > > > > M: You cant be mindful of future aggregates. You cant be mindful of > > past aggregates ..because they dont exist. Any projection of the > > future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a > > thought in the present moment. > > > > That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it > > is well covered under thought (in the present moment) in the suttas. > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > > 51701 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment matheesha333 Hi James, take care Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > > I agree .. > Metta, > James > 51702 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa lbidd2 Howard: "There are three distinguishable but inseparable phenomena involved in so called contact-with-hardness: The hardness content (which is what *I* mean when I refer to such "touch sensation"), the body-door as medium, and the (experiential) presence of the hardness content, that is, the so called consciousness of it." Hi Howard, Is this reasoning or experience? What is the difference between the feel of a rough texture (touch sensation) and the experiential presence of a rough texture (body consciousness)? It seems to me that hardness content is not a sensation or experience of any kind. Also I wonder if you are equating consciousness and attention in your sense of presence. H: "Eye consciousness is not visual sensation. Eye consciousness is the (experiential) presence of visual sensation/data/content. Experiential content is one thing, and its presence is another. They are not the same, but they are mutually dependent, inseparable, and never existing one without the other. They are *so* close!" L: Hmm, so you reason. I agree eye consciousness isn't visible data but "visual sensation" doesn't mean "visible data". To me a sensation is a consciousness and a consciousness is an experience. Visible data is a cause of visual sensation. We assume they are the same and in most cases they are close enough for practical purposes. But sometimes they are not the same. We don't see what is there or we see what is not there. For example, the visual sensation ("visual presence") of the marks on this screen is slightly blurred because of my slightly dysfunctional eye door. But the biggest difference is that rupa isn't an experience and there is really no way of "knowing" what rupa really is. Or so I reason. For you, is there no discrepancy between data and its presence? Larry 51703 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi James, > James: I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can > be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the > Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the > concentration ability to do such a thing. I can only say that I have seen mental states arise and fall away very rapidly with the aid of concentration, but I can't say I have seen them in "Abhidhammic nanosecond" terms. In my opinion, the only person who could see mental states arise and fall away in "Abhidhammic nanosecond" terms is the Buddha. I am not so sure if other arahants with so-called analytical knowledges are capable of doing the same thing. > James: Okay, but I asked you for a sutta reference for this proposal > in a past post and you didn't provide one. Just show me a sutta > reference and I will concede the point. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html "And what are the five clinging-aggregates? "Whatever form -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever feeling -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever perception -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever (mental) fabrications -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever consciousness -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. "These are called the five clinging-aggregates." --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 51704 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Matheesha, > M: Agreed. Right concentration forms the base upon which Insight > (vipassana) practice is built. The results of insight practice would > be much more quicker when jhanas are developed. Agree. Unfortunately, the concentration that I have is not the degree of that of the jhanas. That's why I am currently 'stuck', fettered by the five strands of sensuality. > M: Yes, it is. I wouldnt comment much about the actual time measure > (nano, mili - becuase it is not possible IMO to be mindful and be > aware of a sense of time, which is only illusory) but it is possible > without a shade of doubt to be aware right through the day, dhammas > arising and passing away, moment to moment. But only when the mind > if cleaned temporarily free of defilements with > strong 'concentration' (I disagree with the use of this term - > concentration IMO leads to Samadhi, which is a concentraTED 'one- > pointed' mind, which is brought about by concentraTING). It is indeed possible to be aware right through the day, dhammas arising and passing away, moment to moment. But I think this is only applicable for monks. For those of us who have to work to earn a living, who have to deal with the stress of the workplace daily, this is an impossibility. That's why the Buddha formed the Sangha for this very purpose. > M: You cant be mindful of future aggregates. You cant be mindful of > past aggregates ..because they dont exist. Any projection of the > future or past is only in our imagination, and is actually only a > thought in the present moment. > That is probably why the Buddha never spoke of pannatti, because it > is well covered under thought (in the present moment) in the suttas. Absolutely Right! Regards, Swee Boon 51705 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:11pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Matheesha, > M: Dear Tep, thoughts are more difficult to be mindful of, > especially since they suck us into their content much more readily > than sight/sound etc. But when in vipassana mode you can even watch > these arising (difficult) and passing away (easier). They form part > of the fabric of reality and the three characteristcs can be seen in > them, and can serve as source to understand the same, along with the > other sights,sounds etc of vipassana practice. Essentially you > cannot leave one thing out, but rather the universality of the three > charactics must be realised in its thundering implication - in the > past, future and present, internally, externally,near or far - no > place in the universe can you hide from it. Excellent! There is really no place in this universe - even your very own thoughts - that you can hide from these three characteristics - whether past, future or present, whether internal or external, whether blatant or subtle, whether common or sublime, whether far or near. > Thoughts also form the substrate of practice as in the > vitakkasantana sutta. The removal of thoughts containing > craving,aversion and delusion is important. But this is more > advanced practice, to be done when one has understood those three to > some degree experientially. > > There are also purely contemplative practices: buddhanussati, > dhammanussati etc the 10 anussatis which is just thinking after all. > > There are also methods to control anger for example: thinking this > is worse than what my enemy could wish for me. Or to keep sila - the > idea of being observed by davas etc. Also review and contemplation > of the precepts. These are changing core concepts of how we view the > world. Espeically the development of mundane right view. > > I think finally thoughts form the basis of understanding ones degree > of progress. Whether self view exists, craving and aversion arises > etc. > > I cant think of any more right now. There are probably a lot more. > > Am I a monk?! Am I a man in a yellow robe? Do all men in yellow > robes explain things similarly?! When you deconstruct that image > what do you have? A lump of aggregates. Whatever emerges that also ceases! Regards, Swee Boon 51706 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Tep) - In a message dated 10/22/05 7:46:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Tep: "It is getting more difficult these days to distinguish humor from > vulgarism." > > Hi Tep, > > It wasn't a joke. Are you now disenchanted? > > Larry > ======================== Larry, your conversation went as follows: _____________________ > >Tep: "How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may > >let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)?" > > > >Tep, you're an idiot. Slap! > > > >Larry > > > >ps: Zen approach ;-o > > _________________________ Larry, of course that was a joke! (Even your use of the symbol " ;-o " indicated that!) You were partly kidding Tep, partly poking fun at Zen, and partly just general joking around. Why do you now say it wasn't a joke? You're confusing me! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51707 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/22/05 9:03:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Howard: "There are three distinguishable but inseparable phenomena > involved in so called contact-with-hardness: The hardness content (which > is what *I* mean when I refer to such "touch sensation"), the body-door > as medium, and the (experiential) presence of the hardness content, that > is, the so called consciousness of it." > > Hi Howard, > > Is this reasoning or experience? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: It's my experience. (I wouldn't know how to infer it.) ---------------------------------------- What is the difference between the feel> > of a rough texture (touch sensation) and the experiential presence of a > rough texture (body consciousness)? --------------------------------------- Howard: How shall I tell you? (What's the difference between red and green as experience?) -------------------------------------- It seems to me that hardness content> > is not a sensation or experience of any kind. ------------------------------------- Howard: It is an experiential content - a physical sensation. I don't experience any hardness other than that. ------------------------------------ Also I wonder if you are> > equating consciousness and attention in your sense of presence. ----------------------------------- Howard: No. Attention is different. ----------------------------------- > > H: "Eye consciousness is not visual sensation. Eye consciousness is the > (experiential) presence of visual sensation/data/content. Experiential > content is one thing, and its presence is another. They are not the > same, but they are mutually dependent, inseparable, and never existing > one without the other. They are *so* close!" > > L: Hmm, so you reason. > -------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't reason to that as a conclusion at all. That is how it appears to me. -------------------------------------- I agree eye consciousness isn't visible data but> > "visual sensation" doesn't mean "visible data". > ----------------------------------- Howard: It does to me. I know of no visible data that is not experiential content. ---------------------------------- To me a sensation is a> > consciousness and a consciousness is an experience. --------------------------------- Howard: We either see this matter entrely differently or we are using language entirely differently. But in either case, conversation on this topic tends to be unfruitful under these conditions, don't you think? --------------------------------- Visible data is a> > cause of visual sensation. ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what such "visible data" that is not experiential content is. In any case, it is beyond range. ----------------------------------- > We assume they are the same and in most cases > they are close enough for practical purposes. But sometimes they are not > the same. We don't see what is there or we see what is not there. For > example, the visual sensation ("visual presence") of the marks on this > screen is slightly blurred because of my slightly dysfunctional eye > door. But the biggest difference is that rupa isn't an experience and > there is really no way of "knowing" what rupa really is. Or so I reason. -------------------------------- Howard: For me, rupa is a type of experiential content, and not some "external" something-or-other "out there". Something that is not an aspect of experience, which is merely hypothesized, and for which "there is really no way of 'knowing what [it] really is" may just as well be ignored. ---------------------------------- > > For you, is there no discrepancy between data and its presence? -------------------------------- Howard: For me there is, indeed, a difference. In fact I emphasized that. So called data is experiential content, and that is not the same as the awareness of it. (BTW, I prefer to speak of "experiential presence" of content than "awareness" of content, because the latter speech is more prone to hard separation and reification. ------------------------------- > > Larry > > ==================== With metta, Howard P.S. If I may, I'd like to beg off from continuing this thread. I find it more technical and theoretical than I'd like, and it is exactly the sort of conversation that tends to pull me away from my meditation practice, which, BTW, has happily been proceeding well. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51708 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:09pm Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? nidive Hi Howard (& Larry), > Larry, of course that was a joke! (Even your use of the symbol " > ;-o " indicated that!) You were partly kidding Tep, partly poking > fun at Zen, and partly just general joking around. Why do you now > say it wasn't a joke? You're confusing me! I think what Larry is saying is that if people wants to cling stubbornly to their own views, then no matter how we advise them, it will not change anything. They will still cling even more stubbornly to their own views. Letting go of misunderstanding is only possible if one does not cling stubbornly to their own views and truly reflects internally on the advice being given. And I do think some members of DSG do exhibit the "stubborn" syndrome. Larry, I am sorry if I interpreted you wrongly. Regards, Swee Boon 51709 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? lbidd2 Howard: "Larry, of course that was a joke! (Even your use of the symbol " ;-o " indicated that!) You were partly kidding Tep, partly poking fun at Zen, and partly just general joking around. Why do you now say it wasn't a joke? You're confusing me!" Hi Howard, A slap in the face isn't a joke, but I didn't want it to go too far. I suspected Tep wouldn't be "in the know". The point was to show that words can be a powerful tool that could possibly unburden a person right now. But this is a dangerous technique that can also result in senseless suffering. Even with the little winks I added, the words still sting. The truth of dukkha hurts. Larry 51710 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment corvus121 Hi Swee Boon Thanks for your reply. I've added some comments/questions/clarifications below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Andrew T, > > > AT: Past aggregates have ceased to exist and future aggregates have > > never existed, so when we contemplate 'past and future aggregates', > > what precisely are we contemplating? > > Concepts. AT: I agree. As Rob M likes to point out all the time, concepts (pannatti) aren't referred to in the Suttanta. This isn't a problem for me because I don't read the Suttanta in strict isolation. As I understand it, neither do you. > > Is it important for us to know the difference between existent and > > non-existent when we do these contemplation exercises? > > The Buddha never bothered about this question at all. AT: It may not be expressed overtly in the suttas you are quoting, but that doesn't exclude the question from being important, even vital, background that, perhaps, his audience were aware of and understood. What I have in mind is that the distinction is important as an aspect of insight or direct knowing of present realities (especially mind-object). > > If, as you suggest, there is no worldling 'practice' that can > > possibly 'catch' present realities, doesn't that suggest to you that > > present realities can't be controlled? > > Realities control realities themselves! AT: Agreed ... but in such a complex web of interaction. Easy for mana to get a foothold. > > AT: When you talk about conditions being nurtured, I suspect you > > must be referring to *future* conditions. Correct? So what's your > > interpretation of the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131); > > "Let not a person revive the past > > or on the future build his hopes; > > for the past has been left behind > > and the future has not been reached. > > Instead with insight let him see > > each presently arisen state. > > Let him know that and be sure of it, > > invincibly, unshakably." [Bh Bodhi transl]. > > You are confused! > > "On the future build his hopes": This is talking about craving for > what's in the future. It has worldly kamma as it's objective. > > In one who develops the Noble Eightfold Path, he abandons worldly > kamma. The "conditions" being nurtured has got nothing to do with > worldly kamma. AT: Well, I think the translator must be confused, too. (-: I glean from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes that the verse is principally about insight. He makes no reference to kamma here at all. Let's assume you're right though. I don't see why 'building one's hopes on the future' must be given such a narrow meaning. You say it has 'worldly kamma' as its objective. Why shouldn't 'desire for liberation' be included alongside 'worldly kamma' (eg desire for favourable rebirth)? When the meditator tells himself "I am developing concentration in order to attain liberation", isn't he 'building hopes on the future'? What's the difference? How does one tell which is at work at any given moment? Best wishes Andrew T 51711 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:31pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment corvus121 Hi Tep See below for comments and my last post to Swee Boon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Andrew (and Swee)- > > I have found it easy to get washed away by the sea of messages at > DSG --- I almost forgot to reply to your post # 51651. AT: I know exactly how you feel! No worries. > My following comments may be considered as additional thoughts to > Swee's (message # 51674) > > > > > AT: Past aggregates have ceased to exist and future aggregates > have > > never existed, so when we contemplate 'past and future aggregates', > > what precisely are we contemplating? Is it important for us to know > > the difference between existent and non-existent when we do these > > contemplation exercises? > > Tep: We're contemplating on the three charcteristics of the five > aggregates. These characteristics are true for the various kinds of > aggregates, everywhere and all the time -- past, future, or present. > That's why their contemplation was considered useful by the Buddha. > Don't let the pannatti illusions that are created by the theoretical > Abhidhammikas confuse you. AT: I don't find them either theoretical or confusing. I realise you think that's my problem. But I, in turn, think you are turning your back on something quite precious and overestimating the worldling's ability to understand the suttas. I don't mean that in a rude way, as I'm sure you know. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this broad point. > It is not relevant to consider existence; only the characteristics of the > dhamma are the object of the present-moment citta when we do > dhammanupassana (see DN 22). The direct benefits are clearly > disenchantment of the aggregates because we come to know their > drawbacks (the way they really are). > ............................................. > > > > > AT: If, as you suggest, there is no worldling 'practice' that can > > possibly 'catch' present realities, doesn't that suggest to you that > > present realities can't be controlled? > > > > Tep: Yes, it does. But, it doesn't suggest to me that I cannot direct my > mind in such a way to develop certain kusala dhammas (e.g. the seven > factors of awakening - bojjhanga) in order that a certain mental state > can be attained. AT: Yes, I see the distinction between 'controlling' and 'directing', but I think the basic problem still remains. I think you are stressing a volition-led path, whereas I think the Buddha many times stressed an insight-led path (by saying that "Right Understanding comes first"). I know you have said to others that insight comes in varieties and the highest insight comes at the end of the path, not the beginning. Whilst that sounds reasonable, why didn't the Buddha stress "Right Understanding comes last"? If you are going to contradict something that is stressed time and time again in the suttas, I think a solid explanation is called for. To me, Abhidhamma provides the key - by describing a path process wherein insight leads the way out of conditioned existence. To the horror of we worldlings, that process isn't what we want to hear. It has confronting flavours like 'we don't exist' and 'there is no control'. Ouch! Bitter medicine indeed. (-: > > AT: When you talk about conditions being nurtured, I suspect you > must > > be referring to *future* conditions. Correct? So what's your > > interpretation of the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131); > > "Let not a person revive the past > > or on the future build his hopes; > > for the past has been left behind > > and the future has not been reached. > > Instead with insight let him see > > each presently arisen state. > > Let him know that and be sure of it, > > invincibly, unshakably." [Bh Bodhi transl]. > > AN IX.36 Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption. > > > Tep: This sutta emphasizes the value of the "present moment" so that > the monk would become atapi, sampajjano, satima in the four > foundations (satipatthana) in the present moment. It is not the same > issue as when the five aggregates are the monk's object of > satipatthana, regardless whether they are pertaining to the future or > past, near or far, good or bad, course or refine (as explained above). > > I hope the above answers are useful to you to some extent. AT: Yes, thanks Tep. It's interesting that the sutta refers to "person" and not "bhikkhu", even though the audience were bhikkhus. I really can't see anything in the sutta confining it to monks' formal meditation. That's all for now, Tep. Best wishes Andrew T 51712 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 0:10am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana bardosein --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Hal (and all) - > > I read and reread your post (# 51653) and found no major points that I > disagreed with. The minor disagreements are not insignificant, though. > ....... Hi Tep, Thanks for your comments and questions! Tep: "...'the higher levels of insight' are near the end, not at the beginning near the intellectual level (similar to what Matheesha and Howard have said)." Hal: Yes, this point is worth stressing. The sixth level of purification is a long way from the beginning of the path. ----------------------------------------- Tep: You mean samma-ditthi = the noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path(as defined by MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta)? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html Hal: Yes, as James' excellent post (# 51657) stated so much more clearly. ----------------------------------------- Tep: I assume that the "authentic right view" you mention here is again the samma-ditthi that pertains to the Path, as define by MN 117. How would you explain "this journey" with respect to the practice of the Eightfold Path ? Hal: Yes, as above, the expression "authentic right view" refers to the noble right view. With regard to "this journey" and the practice of the Noble Eightfold path, right view is crucial. As Ven. Nyanatolika says: "For any real progress and the attainment of the supramundane paths of the sotapanna, etc.... right understanding forms the absolutely necessary foundation: for which reason, too, right understanding is given at the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path." (_The Buddha's Path to Deliverance_, p.49). Hal: Even though right view is listed first among all other factors of the path, the establishment of "noble right view" is achieved in three stages beginning with, sila, sammadhi and then panna. In other words, it is not the first factor to be established at the beginning of the path, it is established towards the end. Right view is dependent on the prior establishment of the morality and concentration factors of the path. -------------------------------------------- As Ledi Sayadaw points out: "...the good practice of the three constituents of the morality group leads to the establishment in the purity of moral conduct, while wrong livelihood and the seven kinds of bad conduct, three with body and four with speech--which are all born of personality view--are completely cut off.... Then in order to destroy the second level of wrong view supported by the three mental evil khammas, the factors of the concentration group in the Eightfold path--right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration--must be established in oneself. By this is meant practice of one of the forty subjects of meditation. Here the way of "mindfulness of breathing in and out" will be described briefly. If Buddhist householders have no time during the day to do this practice, they should do it everyday without fail in the morning after rising, say for an hour, and in the evening too, for one or two hours before going to bed...." (p.60 _The Eightfold Path and its Factors Explained_). "Whoever has been successful in establishing purity of conduct and purity of mind should then try to establish the wisdom group of right view and right intention so as to destroy the latency level of personality view. To have established these two path factors means the establishment in due order of the five purities of wisdom, which are: purity of view, purity of overcoming doubt, purity of knowledge and vision of what is and what is not path, purity of knowledge and vision of the practice-path, purity by supramundane knowledge and vision...." (p.63). "These two factors of the wisdom group are established by continual contemplation and deep meditation of arising and passing away (_udayabbaya_). This means the incessant arising and passings of the four elements in their combinations throughout the body in all its parts, beginning with the head, hair, and so forth. It applies also to the six kinds of sense consciousness--of eye,ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind--where arising and passing continue without break. All this can be compared to the small bubbles in a pot of boiling water. Now when insight has been established in oneself and when some insight is thereby been gained into the characteristics of impermanence and not self, one must make an effort to continue in the direction of complete penetration throughout one's whole life, so that stage by stage the paths and fruits are won. To take an example of how this may be done: farmers in the course of their cultivation should practise the contemplation on the arising and the passing of the psychophysical elements in all parts of the body. So by repeated and persistent practice of this meditation, there is born the (insight) knowledge of right view regarding the arising and passing of all physical and psychological phenomena. Such knowledge permeates the whole body, and at this time the first level of personality view regarding the body as "mine" disappears. In this way the latency level view of the body as person, which has accompanied one's life-continuity throughout the beginningless round of rebirths, is extinguished without remainder. The whole body is then transformed into the sphere of right view. Potential fro making the ten unwholesome kammas is totally destroyed while the ten wholesome ways of making kamma are firmly established. The round of rebirth in the states of deprivation is destroyed for such a person and there remain for him only rebirths in the good bourns, such as among human beings, devas and Brahmas. The person has attained the level of a noble one, a stream-winner." (pp.68-69). ------------------------------------------------- Hal: As Ledi Sayadaw has shown, it is only when the sila and sammadhi groups of the Eighfold Path are established that the noble right view can then be realized. His remarks concerning the three levels of wrong view are cited in post (# 51072). As each level of wrong view is eradicated through sila, sammadhi and panna, a corresponding level of right view is established. In other words, could we say that there are three levels of right view, the first two being mundane, with the latter being surpramundane? ___________________________________________________ "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot 51713 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Andrew T, > Let's assume you're right though. I don't see why 'building one's > hopes on the future' must be given such a narrow meaning. You say > it has 'worldly kamma' as its objective. Why shouldn't 'desire for > liberation' be included alongside 'worldly kamma' (eg desire for > favourable rebirth)? When the meditator tells himself "I am > developing concentration in order to attain liberation", isn't > he 'building hopes on the future'? What's the difference? How does > one tell which is at work at any given moment? The difference is in the intention. You might think that by "developing concentration in order to attain liberation", I might in the future have the form, the perceptions, the feelings, the fabrications and the consciousness of an arahant. Yet to an arahant, forms are a menace - stressful, perceptions are a menace - stressful, feelings are a menace - stressful, fabrications are a menace - stressful and consciousness are a menace - stressful. Arahants find no delight and takes no delight in these five aggregates. Of what hopes are you building upon the future by following the Noble Eightfold Path? Regards, Swee Boon 51714 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:19am Subject: incredible india gazita2002 hello again, i have read some of the replies to my original post but don't have the time right now to answer any. currently in Dubai visiting daughters. it's good to see what interest satipatthana has created. even in dubai there is dhamma, because there is dhamma every where. really must go, hopefully more time a bit later. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 51715 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A dacostacharles Hi Teb, The Issue of Motivation: When I was taught about the 8 fold path, I was told that "Right Motivation/Intention" was one of the folds. With this in mind, do Arahants live according to the 8-fold path? If so, then they have the "Right Motivation" as appose to both the "Wrong Motivation" and "No Motivation". If not, because they are the path, Arhant thoughts, speech, and actions are born of the path. Then the "Right Motivation/Intention" is a part of them. Arhant thoughts, speech, and actions are born of it. To have "no motivation" is the same as performing thoughtless acts. I was also taught that Arhants never perform thoughtless acts. Motivation is the purpose behind action. "It is a psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behaviors. {one dictionary}" "mo.tive: n., adj., v., -tived, -tiv.ing. -n. 1. Something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a certain thing, etc.; incentive. 2. the goal or object of a person's actions: Her motive was revenge. 3. <... snip> -adj. 4. causing, or tending to cause, motion. 5. pertaining to motion. 6. prompting to action. 7. <... snip> {another dictionary}" Arahants are motivated by wisdom, morality, and concentration/their abilities. These three are the purpose behind the actions of Arhants. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Friday, 21 October, 2005 23:06 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? --Charles D.'s Q&A Dear Charles - May your Q&A series continue until the last day of either your or my membership here. > Charles D. : > However consider this, is there motivation in the > minds of Arhats and Non-returners? This is more a question of > definition/view. > > If so, are they motivated to be moral and not to fall back into samsara? > If so, do they have a "self view"? > > My point, in short, people try to different because of many different > reasons, and I believe a "self view" is at least one of them. > Tep: Self-views (sakkaya-ditthi) are eliminated by the Sotapanna. I think motivation is the same as cetana, and it could be associated with tanha for the non-arahants. Any motivation is conditioned by avijja for sure. Since the Arahant is free from avijja, so s/he is unmotivated. I don't know about the Anagami (a search in the Visuddhimagga should be helpful). What is your thought? Regards, Tep ======= Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Make Yahoo! your home page Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home - Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Calendar Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... You can add links to your Web sites related to your group? Yahoo! 360° Keep connected to your friends and family through blogs, photos and more. Create your own 360° page now. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Post Message View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 51721 - 51750 of 51785 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Sort by Date 51721 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and Larry - I followed your dialogue with interest. > Howard: > Well, without his realizing what is going on, I would expect the > response to be just what Tep's was. So, somehow I'd say that your certainly kind intentions weren't likely to have the auspicious consequences hoped for, and, clearly, they didn't. > Tep: I am not so sure about Larry's intention, whether or not it was pure or as kind as you Howard thought. Who is the real Larry behind his crude words? I don't know. Do you Howard know him enough to positively say what you said? I remember one story about Ajahn Chah's teaching tactics. He did not speak English and yet he had his unique ways to teach his several students who did not speak Thai. According to the story, Ajahn Chah hurt a student with his foot (kicking him) in order to make him realize anger. Fortunately, the hurt student did not doubt Ajahn Chah's auspicious intention. But I think it was a rather crude approach for a Theravada Buddhist monk. Regards, Tep ======= 51722 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? lbidd2 Hi Hal, Thanks for your very articulate response. I agree what I did wasn't exactly kosher zen, but someone once did the same thing to me, in an egroup, and it had an effect. It made me look at myself and let go of something. Not because of the anti-conceptualization of a slap, but because the words struck at the heart of my clinging. I agree this can easily become mere abuse. Speaking of the here and now, Howard doesn't want to discuss presence, but maybe you will. Are you familiar with what is sometimes called "the watcher" in Vedanta? Is this the same as zen "presence"? Is it in some sense pure consciousness? How do you understand it in abhidhamma terms? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > Larry: A slap in the face isn't a joke, but I didn't want it to go > too far. I suspected Tep wouldn't be "in the know". The point was to > show that words can be a powerful tool that could possibly unburden a > person right now. But this is a dangerous technique that can also > result in senseless suffering. Even with the little winks I added, > the words still sting. The truth of dukkha hurts. > --------------------------- > Hal: I'm no Zen master, although I did struggle hopelessly with koans > for several years. I agree that a slap in the face isn't a joke, but > when it happens in a Zen situation, it really is a slap and it really > hurts. You can't duplicate that in cyberspace, IMHO without causing > serious misunderstandings. The whole point of the Zen Master's slap, > is based on the realization that language and thoughts have become a > burden and a barrier to accessing liberating wisdom here and now; the > shock of the slap, used compassionately at precisely the right > moment, is intended to jolt the individual out of his or her > cognitive slumbering. At that very moment, dukkha as dukkha is not a > conceptual truth; it is "ouch!!!". > > "Speak and I'll give you thirty lashes; don't speak and I'll give you > thirty lashes" A Zen saying. > > Hal > 51723 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Hal) - In a message dated 10/23/05 11:24:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Speaking of the here and now, Howard doesn't want to discuss > presence, but maybe you will. Are you familiar with what is sometimes > called "the watcher" in Vedanta? Is this the same as zen "presence"? > Is it in some sense pure consciousness? How do you understand it in > abhidhamma terms? > ===================== I'll comment on this one: I think the so called watcher is merely subtle sense of self. It may be a useful step along the way, but it is illusion, IMO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51724 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 10/23/05 11:02:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Who is the real Larry behind his > crude words? I don't know. Do you Howard know him enough to > positively say what you said? > ==================== I've known Larry on DSG for many years - so, yes, I'd say I know him rather well. I've never seen meanness in Larry. With metta, Howard P.S. I choose to drop out of this thread at this time. :-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51725 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana matheesha333 Hi Tep, everyone.. Just wanted to add that Avijja is the last of the 10 fetters to be abandoned, not the first. Samma Gnana (Right insight) is the 9th step in the Noble 8 fold path, starting with Right View - pointing towards the fact that even though one starts with a Right view (mundane) there is much more panna to be developed (supramundane). Panna comes later at the end of the Seven Purifications (sapta visuddhi) and they are sequential. The Five faculties (panca indirya) end with Panna, and they are sequential. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Hal (Attn. Andrew, Ken H, Phil, Sarah) - > > Your agreeable reply that answers all questions I asked is exceptional: > it is clearly written, logical and reasonable, right to the point (no beating > around the bush), convincing, and well referenced. > > In summary, the highlights of our discussion are: > > 1. .. 'the higher levels of insight' are near the end, not at the beginning > near the intellectual level: it is the "sixth level of purification" which is > a "long way from the beginning of the path". > > 2. Samma-ditthi is the noble right view, without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path(as defined by MN 117 Maha- > cattarisaka Sutta) also quoted by James in dsg # 51657. > > 3. "Right understanding" is the same as right view (samma-ditthi) > and "is given at the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path" [Ref. The > Buddha's Path to Deliverance, p.49]. Some of us tend to jump to wrong > conclusion that right understanding therefore must come first. However, > they have missed the point. > Why? Because, as you have rightfully stated, " even though right view > is listed first among all other factors of the path, the establishment > of "noble right view" is achieved in three stages beginning with, sila, > samadhi, and then panna. In other words, it is not the first factor to be > established at the beginning of the path, it is established towards the > end. Right view is dependent on the prior establishment of the morality > and concentration factors of the path." > > 4. The highly regarded Ven. Ledi Sayadaw had no trouble > understanding that right view is one of the two Path factors that belong > to the panna (wisdom) group, and that right view is "established" > through establishing the five purifications of wisdom: "Whoever has > been successful in establishing purity of conduct and purity of mind > should then try to establish the wisdom group of right view and right > intention so as to destroy the latency level of personality view. To have > established these two path factors means the establishment in due > order of the five purities of wisdom, which are: purity of view, purity of > overcoming doubt, purity of knowledge and vision of what is and what > is not path, purity of knowledge and vision of the practice-path, purity by > supramundane knowledge and vision...." Again, this is another proof > that right understanding does not come first, as stated in 1. above. > > 5. The Ven. Ledi Sayadaw observed that the three bad bodily > conducts and four bad speeches were "all born of personality view". > Purification of moral conduct cuts off this first level of wrong view. He > went on to say, "then in order to destroy the second level of wrong view > supported by the three mental evil khammas, the factors of the > concentration group in the Eightfold path--right effort, right mindfulness, > and right concentration--must be established in oneself." > > This practice to establishing of right view shows that we need other > Path factors to get the job done. Again, it is another proof that lokuttara > right view does not come first, but rather later in the practice of sila, > smadhi, and panna. > > > Hal : As each level of wrong view is eradicated through sila, sammadhi > and panna, a corresponding level of right view is established. In other > words, could we say that there are three levels of right view, the first two > being mundane, with the latter being surpramundane? > > > Tep: Or you may say the whole process of right view development is > carried out in stages. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > 51726 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi Tep (and James) (and All) All, we are now back in Delhi again, spending a couple of nights here before our flight to Hong Kong. The rest of the group left yesterday. Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, James (and Azita, Howard, Htoo) > >You say the Satipatthana as a `technique' is ego driven. The person >who practices this way misses the point that "Satipatthana isn't about >`techniques', it is about being aware of the present moment" and >nothing else. > >... > > >How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? >What are the conditions that define the present moment? >Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? >If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me >to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? >How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the >attention back" a technique or not? >What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? >How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the >present moment in order to gain those benefits? > I would like to suggest a slightly more specific description of satipatthana than 'being with the present moment', since I think that is open to a number of interpretations. My suggestion is, 'being aware of a presently arisen dhamma'. I think the Buddha speaks in the suttas about awareness/understanding of *dhammas*, rather than of the *present moment*. If we think in terms of awareness of the present moment, we are inclined to see awareness as having to be of a *single moment* (of consciousness, of sense-door object, or whatever). This I think is impossible for the worldling, and perhaps for all but Buddhas and their great disciples. Awareness of a *single dhamma*, yes, but not necessarily of just a single moment of that dhamma. Any comments or thoughts? Jon 51727 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india jonoabb Hi Mateesha Just a couple of comments on your post to James. matheesha wrote: >Hi James, >... > > >I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment >to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > >Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the >point of enlightenment. > >Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya >ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because >that is impossible). > >You can wait for the perfect ego attachment free method until your >dying day and even after that but it will never come IMO. > I agree with your general sentiment here, that for the worldling there is no ego-free or attachment-free method of developing insight, and that whatever one does in the name of practice or non-practice there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment to technique . However, we differ as to the consequences of this observation ;-)) As I see it, there are many moments of consciousness in a day that are without ego or attachment. Even putting aside all the moments of sense-door impression, our mind-door (javana) moments include some kusala moments too, and these arise without our having to 'try' or do anything, . Sati and panna likewise may arise spontaneously, conditioned by prior reading/listening and reflection. This is how conditions operate. At such moments there is the development of the path, but there is no 'doing' (neither, of course, is the development of awareness a case of 'doing nothing'). The 'practice' spoken of in the suttas is any moment of such development of the path. As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at each moment when kusala consciousness arises. At such times the mind is (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. These moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') since they are accompanied by passadhi cetasika. Jon 51728 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-self Discernment and Nibbana jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for the quotes and question below. The issue you raise is central to the teaching of the Buddha. Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear DSG Friends - > >In the SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta and also in other suttas >about "not self" (anatta), e.g. MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta, the >following teaching is seen again and again: > >"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; >internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or >near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right >discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not >what I am.' > >... > >Tep: The words "to be seen as it actually is with right discernment" >may sound easy like something everyone is capable to do right now ! >... > >Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go >of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? > As one hears more and more about the teachings, ponders on what has been heard, and is able to relate it to the present moment, moments of right view/right understanding may arise and see dhammas as they really are. There is neither the striving to do something, nor is there doing nothing. By this means, misunderstanding is gradually reduced. Jon 51729 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Gazita and other India-goers (for example Sarah), >... >But also about the jhanas, with clear information about this topic by >Rob M ! Conclusion: forget it to get arahant without having been in >jhanic absorption; but if getting stream-enterer is good enough for >you, then you can do without jhana. > I have followed this thread with interest during our travels through India. I would be interested to hear your comments on what I see as a possible inconsistency in the conclusion you describe above. On the one hand, we know from the suttas that the sotapanna is *assured* of final enlightenment within a maximum of seven further lifetimes. On the other hand, it is said that stream-entry can be attained without jhana while final enlightenment cannot. The latter view seems to be at odds with the former statement. Do you have any thoughts on this? Jon 51730 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa jonoabb Hi Larry Larry wrote: >Hi all, > >Here are some questions. When you touch something hard is the touch >sensation body consciousness or hardness (earth element)? If body >consciousness, is there any additional experience that is earth element? > It depends what you mean by 'touch sensation' ;-)). The suttas talk about touching consciousness (nama), the hardness (rupa) that is the object of the touching consciousness, and the feeling (vedana, sometimes translated as 'sensation') that arises dependent on the contact between those two. Does this answer your question? >Similarly, when you see visible data is there a visual sensation >comparable to touch sensation? If eye consciousness is visual sensation >is there any additional experience that is visible data? > Likewise with the eye-door, there is seeing consciousness (nama) with visible object (rupa) as its object, and there is feeling (vedana) that accompanies that moment of experiencing. There is also feeling that arises in the subsequent mind-door processes that is conditioned by that experience and by other factors such as one's predisposition to like or dislike the particular object. >Vism.XV,41: Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded >as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, >and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye >element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the >visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as >the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as >sugarcane or sesamum, the visible-data element as the [sugarcane] mill >or the [sesamum] wheel rod, and the eye-consciousness element as the >sugarcane juice or the sesamum oil. Likewise, the eye-element should be >regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper >fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in >the case of the ear and so on. > >L: Rupa is not part of our experience like consciousness is. It is >inferred. > Well, according to the suttas, a rupa that is the object of consciousness is as real as the consciousness itself. That rupa forms part of the 'all' that is to be known. I'm not sure in what sense you see the rupa as being 'inferred'. Is it not directly experienced by the consciousness? Jon 51731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Matheesha - > >Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. >we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta-ditthi and >lobha. > > > >>Math : >>I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment >>to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. >> >>Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the >>point of enlightenment. >> >>Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya >>ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because >>that is impossible). >> >> > >Tep: >It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view >that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. > I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). When we say 'We start from where we are, not where we would like to be', that means that we start as someone who has developed both kusala and akusala in the past (i.e., in previous lifetimes), but mostly aksuala. These kusala and akusala qualities are lying latent in the consciousness ready to arise whenever the conditions for their arising are present. Among the kinds of kusala that have been developed in the past is right view (panna cetasika). This developed right view may arise whenever the conditions for its arising is present. Those conditions include in particular the proper reflection on dhamma heard and understood. Of course, the latent unwholesome qualities predominate over the latent wholesome ones by a huge margin and so arise more frequently; the wholesome ones are a tiny minority and need all the encouragement they can get. Jon 51732 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Swee, >... > > >James: I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can >be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the >Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the >concentration ability to do such a thing. > I agree that the Abhidhamma represents a description of the mind operating on a moment-to-moment basis, but I don't see this as meaning that the development of awareness entails being aware of successive dhammas every nanosecond. In any event, for we novices, beginning awareness could not be of that 'single moment' level of discernment, I think ;-)) The idea that awareness means seeing individual and consecutive moments of consciousness seems to involve an idea of somehow 'catching' dhammas at a very microscopic level, and this in turn would suggest the need for special arrangements in the form of a particular time and place. If on the other hand we understand awareness to be a wholesome quality that arises by conditions not of our 'making', the picture is quite different. It may be weak or strong, may take any dhamma as object, and will occur at a time not of our own choosing. Instead of a single moments of successive dhammas, there may be several moments of the same dhamma. No expectations. Just my thoughts. Jon 51733 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:35pm Subject: The Eye ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The arising of Sensors is also the arising of sensing Pain & Suffering! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Eye is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Eye is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Ear is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Ear is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Nose is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Nose is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Tongue is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Tongue is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Body is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Body is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Mind is also the arising of Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself!!! The ceasing, subsiding, and complete passing away of the Mind is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and death itself!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 26:1 III 228-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 51734 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment bardosein Greetings Jon, James is quite right. Some ariyans should be able to see this level of mental activity quite clearly. It may not be so unusual for highly advanced meditators either. A remarkable experience occurs at the sixth level of insight, during the Knowledge of Contemplation of Dissolution, just prior to the onset of Appearance as Terror. As Ven. Mahathera Matara Sri Nanarama states: "While this Knowledge of Dissolution is going on within him, the meditator has the extraordinary experience of being able to see the thought with which he reflected on dissolution. Then he reflects on that thought as well. Thus he enters upon a special phase of powerful insight known as reflective insight (_pativipassana_); it is also called insight into higher wisdom (_adhipannna vipassana_). As the _Patisambhidamagga_ says: 'Having reflected on an object, he contemplates the dissolution of the thought which reflected on the object. The appearance (of formations) is also void. This is 'insight into higher wisdom'' (PS1,58). After reflecting on an object representing the mind-and-matter, the meditator reflects upon the reflecting thought itself. Thus, he now sees dissolution not only in every immediate object he adverts to, but in every thought he happens to think." (_The Seven Stages of Purification and Insight Knowledges_, p.47) Hal 51735 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? bardosein Hi Larry, I don't know enough about Vedanta, nor am I familar with the notion of "Zen presence" to make any helpful comments. However, this summer during some discussions about Nisargadatta's writings with a Burmese trained meditation teacher, the monk did mention Vedanta. As I recall his comments were similar to Howard's remarks. Hal 51736 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 0:26pm Subject: pure consciousness lbidd2 Hi Hal and Howard, I can't really find a place for the watcher in abhidhamma unless I change my understanding of abhidhamma and say the watcher as pure consciousness is the nature of the consciousness reality. As pure consciousness, I think it can be found in Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and possibly in Zen. This is basically a sense of wakefulness and detachment sometimes called Buddha Nature. In Vedanta the watcher is the Self as differentiated from self (ego). As such it is void of all phenomenal qualities. Sometimes it is called noumenon by nonreligious types. In some forms of nondual Vedanta watcher is inseparable from watched, but in the more classical mode Self is inseparable from God (Brahman). As such it has some affinities with nibbana in that they both are void of phenomenality. My best guess for what Howard means by "experiential presence" is pure consciousness, aka the watcher in this sense. In Mahamudra this view is synthesized with idealism but I think it stands alone in Dzogchen as a component of the khandhas (not sure). I'm really undecided on what to do with this notion of pure consciousness. For one thing, if the same consciousness watches, or is present with, taste and sound and feeling how can we say it is impermanent? On the other hand, this experience of consciousness is readily accessible (and always the same) so there must be something to it. Larry 51737 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa lbidd2 Jon: "It depends what you mean by 'touch sensation' ;-)). The suttas talk about touching consciousness (nama), the hardness (rupa) that is the object of the touching consciousness, and the feeling (vedana, sometimes translated as 'sensation') that arises dependent on the contact between those two." Hi Jon, In the quotation I gave from the Visuddhimagga the eye element is like the surface of a mirror, the visible data element is like a face, and the eye-consciousness element is like the image in the mirror. Obviously the mirror image of a face is not a face. You can't get a rupa into the mind stream. Also, most of the time there are little defects in the mirror (eye element), so we don't really know what the true face is. Anyone who wears glasses know this. For an alternative view on what eye-consciousness is, see my "pure consciousness" email. Larry 51738 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > I would be interested to hear your comments on what I see as a > possible inconsistency in the conclusion you describe above. > > On the one hand, we know from the suttas that the sotapanna is *assured* > of final enlightenment within a maximum of seven further lifetimes. On > the other hand, it is said that stream-entry can be attained without > jhana while final enlightenment cannot. > > The latter view seems to be at odds with the former statement. Do you > have any thoughts on this? > > Jon > Hallo Jon I noticed that too in the message I abstracted in this one to Azita and the India-goers, with the subtitle " Stream entry is good enough for me". The most simple solution is that a stream-enterer in one of his/her seven (or less) lives per se will do jhanic concentration, 'caused' by conditions; but I don't know if there are texts about this. Partly I was only the messenger, I used a message of Rob M who wrote to me: "Bhikku Bodhi makes the point in his long essay that I recently posted that jhana may not be required to attain the first three stages of sainthood, but it is required to attain Arahantship (and of course Buddhahood)." That was in reaction to my remark that in the MahaSaccaka Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 36) the Buddha explains the first jhana is enough to get awakened: "I thought: `I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then—quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities— I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: `That is the path to Awakening." The four jhanas are mentioned in the aspect 'right concentration' of the Noble Eightfold Path (for example in DN 22); my conclusion: RobM must be right, first jhana is not enough for realizing all aspects of this Path. The problem is bigger for the layperson who wanted to get arahant: even if he/she reaches the fourth jhana, it's only possible for a monk to get arahant, as James 'proved' with quotes from AN05-179 and AN10-092. My personal opinion about that point: not the social role of being a monk but the spiritual role of renunciation is decicive. To me there seems to be a inconsistency in this texts. Maybe I did not read them good enough. Maybe some suttas used here are older than other ones (a possibility buddhologist make but orthodox Theravadins don't like). I sometimes have the idea that in the texts from decades and centuries after the Parinibbana of the Buddha awakening had been made more and more difficult than in the time that He lived. It's only an intellectual and not a spiritual problem to me; as I said "Stream entry is good enough for me" and if that's not the case: I don't worry about my future; I'm going my buddhist path because I'm convinced I had to do it, not because I want any results. Metta Joop 51739 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thanks for initiating a very relevant discussion. >Jon: >My suggestion is, 'being aware of a presently arisen dhamma'. ... >Awareness of a *single dhamma*, yes, but not necessarily of just >a single moment of that dhamma. Any comments or thoughts? Tep: How about awareness (mindfulness and clear comprehension) of the arising & dissolving phenomena of any of the four frames of reference (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) in every passing moment, while putting aside greed(abhijjhaa) & distress(domanassa) with reference to the world ? Kind regards, Tep ==== (snipped) > Jon: > I think the Buddha speaks in the suttas about awareness/understanding of *dhammas*, rather than of the *present moment*. > > If we think in terms of awareness of the present moment, we are inclined > to see awareness as having to be of a *single moment* (of consciousness, > of sense-door object, or whatever). This I think is impossible for the > worldling, and perhaps for all but Buddhas and their great disciples. > Awareness of a *single dhamma*, yes, but not necessarily of just a > single moment of that dhamma. > 51740 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:19pm Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I am a bit reluctant to discuss this very same issue with you, especially after being called "an idiot" and virtually slapped by an aggressive member. ^_* > > > >Tep: The words "to be seen as it actually is with right discernment" > >may sound easy like something everyone is capable to do right now ! > >... > > > >Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she > >may let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? > > > Jon: ...The issue you raise is central to the teaching of the Buddha. Tep: Thank you very much, Jon, for revisiting this old but very important issue again, despite the so many discussions we have had. ....................................... >Jon: As one hears more and more about the teachings, ponders on what has been heard, and is able to relate it to the present moment, moments of right view/right understanding may arise and see dhammas as they really are. There is neither the striving to do something, nor is there doing nothing. By this means, misunderstanding is gradually reduced. Tep: I have no problem accepting your remarks above, Jon. Why? Because it is neither extreme with the wrong-view like 'this only is true, everything else is false', nor promising that we will all eventually become Arahants that way. BTW; have you read the most recent posts by Matheesha and Hal on this issue? They wrote excellent posts that provide an alternative perspective. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thanks for the quotes and question below. The issue you raise is > central to the teaching of the Buddha. > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Dear DSG Friends - > > > >In the SN XXII.59 Anattalakkhana Sutta and also in other suttas > >about "not self" (anatta), e.g. MN 22 Alagaddupama Sutta, the > >following teaching is seen again and again: > > > >"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; > >internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > >near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right > >discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not > >what I am.' > > > >... > > > >Tep: The words "to be seen as it actually is with right discernment" > >may sound easy like something everyone is capable to do right now ! > >... > > > >Question : How would you advise anyone like that so he/she may let go of his/her misunderstanding (if you think it is possible)? > > (snipped) 51741 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india matheesha333 Hi Jon, > I agree with your general sentiment here, that for the worldling there > is no ego-free or attachment-free method of developing insight, and that > whatever one does in the name of practice or non-practice there is no > escaping the idea of self or attachment to technique . However, we > differ as to the consequences of this observation ;-)) > > As I see it, there are many moments of consciousness in a day that are > without ego or attachment. Even putting aside all the moments of > sense-door impression, our mind-door (javana) moments include some > kusala moments too, and these arise without our having to 'try' or do > anything, . Sati and panna likewise may arise spontaneously, > conditioned by prior reading/listening and reflection. This is how > conditions operate. At such moments there is the development of the > path, but there is no 'doing' (neither, of course, is the development of > awareness a case of 'doing nothing'). The 'practice' spoken of in the > suttas is any moment of such development of the path. > > As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at > each moment when kusala consciousness arises. At such times the mind is > (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. These > moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') since they are > accompanied by passadhi cetasika. > > Jon > M: Just wanted to say that the arising and accumilation of avijja would bury any development of panna in the method you describe above and is therefore impractical IMO. The equivalent of blowing at a hurricane hoping to stop it. > As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at > each moment when kusala consciousness arises. When akusala thoughts arise, defilements also accumilate and increase. Which arises more, kusala or akusala? What you describe is practically impossible. The idea that we could get rid of defilements by having random moments of kusala is too mixed up to think about. I work in psychiatry - everyone would be cured of all psychological problems quite easily if this were the case. No one would need years of therapy. Jon, the mind is very very difficult to change. The only way to do it in the time span which the buddha mentioned is through formal practice. It is also meaningless that the buddha would speak in terms of accumilated time (7 years of satipattana moments, which is actually spread over severa lifetimes) because he could have simply said it if that was the case. There is nothing in the suttas to inidicate such a thing and plenty to indicate that monks attained in this lifetime, not based on any accumilations from a previous life, which is again not mentioned. At such times the mind is > (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. :), so you are a sotapanna for a moment? I think people get mixed up when they cant correlate abhidhammic thinking and common sense dextrously enough. Partial understanding leads to logical errors. There is no sakkaya ditti when sleeping. There are few/no defilements when sleeping. So the path to nibbana must be through sleep. A perfeclty logical assumption when you throw in 'accumilations' and disregard some suttas which describe what is done during the daytime so that they are not really valid. Lets make realisation over many lifetimes as well, so that will account for the fact that no one has really attained anytihng of distinction from this method but keeps hope going. At such times the mind is > (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. These > moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') since they are > accompanied by passadhi cetasika. > KS's theory has internal logical consistency. But has no experience behind it. No one who has experienced samadhi would make a statement like the one above. Its to point at a trickle of water and say 'look, a river'. Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and not a gainer of internal appeasement of mind should approach that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and ask him- Friend, how should the mind be settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind brought to a single point be made to concentrate. He would explain it to him, as he had known it and seen it. Friend, the mind should be settled thus, quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to concentrate thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and a gainer of internal appeasement of mind. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm The above is a description for developing samadhi. It is formal practice. It was said by the Buddha. metta Matheesha 51742 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhatrue Hi Larry (and Hal), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Hal, > > Thanks for your very articulate response. I agree what I did wasn't > exactly kosher zen, James: Thank goodness you now understand that! I read your mixed-up message, no need to get into it- I'm sure you understand, about why and what you posted to Tep and I thought to myself, "This psycho- babble ain't no Zen!" ;-)) but someone once did the same thing to me, in an > egroup, and it had an effect. James: What kind of effect?? It made me look at myself and let go of > something. James: Let go of what?? Your ability to reason? The trust in your own thinking?? (Moral: Let go of the bad stuff, but keep your good stuff close at hand.) Not because of the anti-conceptualization of a slap, but > because the words struck at the heart of my clinging. I agree this > can easily become mere abuse. James: Yes, we all know, deep down instinctively, that we should let go of clinging- but so many substitute "Our Savior" for just a run- of-the-mill abuser. And we take those terrible, unwarranted slaps so appreciatively. > > Speaking of the here and now, Howard doesn't want to discuss > presence, but maybe you will. Are you familiar with what is sometimes > called "the watcher" in Vedanta? Is this the same as zen "presence"? > Is it in some sense pure consciousness? How do you understand it in > abhidhamma terms? James: I followed this tread a bit more (but not completely) and I found that Hal did not answer you satisfactorily in regards to this question. Larry, in regards to Zen, there is what is known as the "Great Mind". You won't find anything about this in the Theravada Abhidhamma, so there is no use in asking. But, I could recommend to you to read this sutta to perhaps find your philosophical answers: The Lankavatara Sutra; Self-Realisation of Noble Wisdom http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=Lankavatara+Sutra&sm=Yahoo% 21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.darkzen.com/downloads/The% 2520Lankavatara% 2520Sutra.pdf&w=lankavatara+sutra&d=SYiMR2FULl0N&icp=1&.intl=us If this rather obscure address doesn't work for you (since it is changing a pdf document into HTML), just contact me off-list and I will send you the entire document. And, yes, this is a Mahayana sutra. Those with legal issues can contact my attorneys. ;-)) > > Larry Metta, James 51743 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I think the trip to India must have done something to you, Jon. All your posts so far since you came back are really different from those in the past. But, I might be assuming. >>Math : >>I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment >>to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. >> >>Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the >>point of enlightenment. >> >>Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya >>ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because >>that is impossible). >> >> > >Tep: >It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. > > Jon: >I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). >Jon: When we say 'We start from where we are, not where we would like to be', that means that we start as someone who has developed both kusala and akusala in the past (i.e., in previous lifetimes), but mostly aksuala. These kusala and akusala qualities are lying latent in the consciousness ready to arise whenever the conditions for their arising are present. Tep: Yes, you're right about the latent tendencies(anusaya)-- similar to the description found in the suttas. So I agree that we all started with unabandoned anusayas. >Jon: Among the kinds of kusala that have been developed in the past is right view (panna cetasika). This developed right view may arise whenever the conditions for its arising is present. Those conditions include in particular the proper reflection on dhamma heard and understood. Tep: I am hesitating to agree with you about this view of right view and the "developed right view". It is so unclear that I can't tell where you are standing. >Jon: Of course, the latent unwholesome qualities predominate over the latent wholesome ones by a huge margin and so arise more frequently; the wholesome ones are a tiny minority and need all the encouragement they can get. Tep: It is true that most people have more unwholesomeness than wholesomeness. But what is the Pali for the "latent wholesome qualities", Jon? I only know that 'anusaya' = latent unwholesome qualities. If the Buddha taught those "latent wholesome qualities", that sutta must have completely escaped me. Thanks for the interesting conversation, Jon. Yours truly, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Matheesha - > > > >Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. > >we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta-ditthi and > >lobha. > > > > > > > >>Math : > >>I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment > >>to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > >> > >>Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > >>point of enlightenment. > >> > >>Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya > >>ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because > >>that is impossible). > >> > >> > > > >Tep: > >It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view > >that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. > > > > I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). > > When we say 'We start from where we are, not where we would like to be', > that means that we start as someone who has developed both kusala and > akusala in the past (i.e., in previous lifetimes), but mostly aksuala. > These kusala and akusala qualities are lying latent in the consciousness > ready to arise whenever the conditions for their arising are present. > > Among the kinds of kusala that have been developed in the past is right > view (panna cetasika). This developed right view may arise whenever the > conditions for its arising is present. Those conditions include in > particular the proper reflection on dhamma heard and understood. > > Of course, the latent unwholesome qualities predominate over the latent > wholesome ones by a huge margin and so arise more frequently; the > wholesome ones are a tiny minority and need all the encouragement they > can get. > > Jon > 51744 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 10/23/05 11:02:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > Who is the real Larry behind his > > crude words? I don't know. Do you Howard know him enough to > > positively say what you said? > > > ==================== > I've known Larry on DSG for many years - so, yes, I'd say I know him > rather well. I've never seen meanness in Larry. > > With metta, > Howard I must concur. I never seen meanness in Larry either. (and damn- I hate all these goody-goodies around here!! ;-)). Metta, James > > P.S. I choose to drop out of this thread at this time. :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 51745 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Why stop there? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I must tell you that I truly love your neat thought below. I completely agree with it. I also have experienced those kinds of moment. ^_* > Jon: > > As I see it, there are many moments of consciousness in a day that >are without ego or attachment. Even putting aside all the moments of > sense-door impression, our mind-door (javana) moments include >some kusala moments too, and these arise without our having > to 'try' or do anything, . Sati and panna likewise may arise >spontaneously, conditioned by prior reading/listening and reflection. >This is how conditions operate. At such moments there is the >development of the path, but there is no 'doing' (neither, of course, > is the development of awareness a case of 'doing nothing'). >The 'practice' spoken of in the suttas is any moment of such >development of the path. > > As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at > each moment when kusala consciousness arises. At such times > the mind is (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. >These moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') >since they are accompanied by passadhi cetasika. > Tep: But those moments are just the beginning of something much, much more valuable. Why stop there? Regards, Tep ========= 51746 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (and James) (and All) > > All, we are now back in Delhi again, spending a couple of nights here > before our flight to Hong Kong. The rest of the group left yesterday. James: Hey, sounds nice. Hope you two enjoy your romantic time together alone!! (With avijaa, and all that on the horizon, grab all the glory you can get! ;-)) (BTW, I try to not take enlightenment too seriously- it is like flipping a coin: Heads you wind- Tails you lose.) > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, James (and Azita, Howard, Htoo) > > > >You say the Satipatthana as a `technique' is ego driven. The person > >who practices this way misses the point that "Satipatthana isn't about > >`techniques', it is about being aware of the present moment" and > >nothing else. > > > >... > > > > > >How do I know whether I am with "the present moment" or not? > >What are the conditions that define the present moment? > >Is the present moment static, or is it changing all the time? > >If it is rapidly changing, then what is your technique, or guideline, for me > >to follow in order that I may be aware of it ? > >How do you bring back your attention to it -- and is that "bringing the > >attention back" a technique or not? > >What are the benefits of being aware of the present moment? > >How often and how long do you have to be (continuously) aware of the > >present moment in order to gain those benefits? > > > > I would like to suggest a slightly more specific description of > satipatthana than 'being with the present moment', since I think that is > open to a number of interpretations. My suggestion is, 'being aware of > a presently arisen dhamma'. > > I think the Buddha speaks in the suttas about awareness/understanding of > *dhammas*, rather than of the *present moment*. James: Okay, whatever floats your boat.;-)) "Present dhamma" or "Present moment" they are all just words to me. Whatever gets you to the other shore I am rooting for!! Don't stick to the words, stay with the actions (mental and physical). > > If we think in terms of awareness of the present moment, we are inclined > to see awareness as having to be of a *single moment* (of consciousness, > of sense-door object, or whatever). This I think is impossible for the > worldling, and perhaps for all but Buddhas and their great disciples. > Awareness of a *single dhamma*, yes, but not necessarily of just a > single moment of that dhamma. > > Any comments or thoughts? James: Hi Jon- I don't have anything else to tell you, but thank you for sharing your thoughts. (BTW, Hal expresses something later that is worth noting). My advice: Hug your wife real tight, kiss her on the cheeks, and tell her that you love her. That is all the "dhammas" I want to hear out of you for a while!! (but not Sarah). > > Jon > Metta, James 51747 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Mateesha), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Mateesha > > Just a couple of comments on your post to James. > > matheesha wrote: > > >Hi James, > >... > > > > > >I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment > >to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > > > >Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > >point of enlightenment. > > > >Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya > >ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because > >that is impossible). > > > >You can wait for the perfect ego attachment free method until your > >dying day and even after that but it will never come IMO. > > > > I agree with your general sentiment here, that for the worldling there > is no ego-free or attachment-free method of developing insight, and that > whatever one does in the name of practice or non-practice there is no > escaping the idea of self or attachment to technique . However, we > differ as to the consequences of this observation ;-)) > > As I see it, there are many moments of consciousness in a day that are > without ego or attachment. Even putting aside all the moments of > sense-door impression, our mind-door (javana) moments include some > kusala moments too, and these arise without our having to 'try' or do > anything, . Sati and panna likewise may arise spontaneously, > conditioned by prior reading/listening and reflection. This is how > conditions operate. At such moments there is the development of the > path, but there is no 'doing' (neither, of course, is the development of > awareness a case of 'doing nothing'). The 'practice' spoken of in the > suttas is any moment of such development of the path. > > As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at > each moment when kusala consciousness arises. At such times the mind is > (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. These > moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') since they are > accompanied by passadhi cetasika. > > Jon > Jon, you included my name in this reply to Matheesha and so I read the whole thing in its entirety. Actually, I have read it over and over again and yet I cannot find a single thing of substance/meaning to reply to. Maybe this is my fault? (I could accept the blame). But, please, for now on, if you have something to say to me make it clear and plain. Metta, James 51748 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Matheesha - > > > >Your post reminded me of Howard who has said the same thing, i.e. > >we do not start with right understanding that is free from atta- ditthi and > >lobha. > > > > > > > >>Math : > >>I would argue that there is no escaping the idea of self or attachment > >>to technique whatever you do in the name of (non/)practice. > >> > >>Thats what we have and where we start from, less we 'start' at the > >>point of enlightenment. > >> > >>Thats why we need to rid the mind of defilements including sakkaya > >>ditti while along the path of practice and not at the start (because > >>that is impossible). > >> > >> > > > >Tep: > >It always amazes me how some people stubbornly keep the fixed view > >that the right understanding can be found at the beginning. > > > > I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). James: Thank god you have finally accepted this as (somewhat) fact! Now, if we could just get you to move from accepting it as a fodder for double-entre jokes, to really accepting it as a real possiblity!- we would have gone really far! (BTW, love you Jon) > > When we say 'We start from where we are, not where we would like to be', Metta, James 51749 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi Swee, > >... > > > > > >James: I wasn't being figurative, I was being literal. The mind can > >be aware of present dhammas every nanosecond. That is how the > >Abhidhamma was composed- by those who had developed the > >concentration ability to do such a thing. > > > > I agree that the Abhidhamma represents a description of the mind > operating on a moment-to-moment basis, but I don't see this as meaning > that the development of awareness entails being aware of successive > dhammas every nanosecond. In any event, for we novices, beginning > awareness could not be of that 'single moment' level of discernment, I > think ;-)) James: Hi Jon, I don't think it really matters if you call the experience "awareness of the present moment" or "awareness of single dhammmas" etc. They are all just words. The important consideration is to just focus on the practice. > > The idea that awareness means seeing individual and consecutive moments > of consciousness seems to involve an idea of somehow 'catching' dhammas > at a very microscopic level, and this in turn would suggest the need for > special arrangements in the form of a particular time and place. > > If on the other hand we understand awareness to be a wholesome quality > that arises by conditions not of our 'making', the picture is quite > different. It may be weak or strong, may take any dhamma as object, and > will occur at a time not of our own choosing. Instead of a single > moments of successive dhammas, there may be several moments of the same > dhamma. No expectations. James: Just read the subsequent post by Hal. He explains my point most throughly. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jon > Metta, James 51750 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? lbidd2 Hi James, Thanks for your sutra link but what I really want is to understand Mahayana in Theravada language. This kind of Mahayana recognizes different kinds of consciousness than Theravada, so maybe there isn't a meeting of the rivers, but there must be some way for Theravada to explain it. Otherwise, it would fall short of "the all". Larry 51716 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment matheesha333 Hi Swee, >S: Agree. Unfortunately, the concentration that I have is not the degree > of that of the jhanas. That's why I am currently 'stuck', fettered by > the five strands of sensuality. M: I thought I should share this with you: 9. Pañhamavasasuttaü- First on wielding power. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with seven things wields power over the mind, his mind does not wield power over him; what seven? Here, the bhikkhu is clever in concentration, clever in attainments of concentration, clever in enduring in concentration, clever in rising from concentrations, is clever in seeing the benefits of concentration, is clever in pasture for concentrations, is clever in throwing out in concentrations. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with these seven things wields power over the mind, the mind does not wield power over him. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara4/7-sattakanipata/004-devatavaggo-e.htm I think we all go through cycles in our practice. I'm getting back more and more into my samadhi practice and I can really see the benefits again. Sometimes you just need to go on extended retreat to develop jhaana. It is not impossible, it is very possible. You just need to be devoted to one-pointedness/sati right through the day and nothing else. After that, maintaining it at home is also possible because once you have reached it, it becomes easier to give rise to it again and again. There is much development of sadda when you experience jhaana because there is validation of the dhamma. Then that powerful mind is very useful in the development of insight. S:> It is indeed possible to be aware right through the day, dhammas > arising and passing away, moment to moment. > > But I think this is only applicable for monks. For those of us who > have to work to earn a living, who have to deal with the stress of the > workplace daily, this is an impossibility. That's why the Buddha > formed the Sangha for this very purpose. M: I agree. The initial stage of insight is to get a glimpse of the truths. This is why going on retreat is so important to lay practice as there are too many distraction living a lay life. I wouldnt use the word impossible, because I know of people who break through into jhaana and insight meditating at home, but i suspect they do live quiet lives (retired/minding the house/between jobs etc). How much progress on makes depends on how much application/viriya, effort,determination there is. I know of people who wake up early before going to work and meditate. The central thing is to give your practice priority, and let other things fall around it, rather than the other way around. We give priority to eating, so however busy we are, we eat. Similarly..But better to go on retreat (the mind will find a hundred excuses!) and do it under proper guidance. The initial stage is only breaking through into insight. This does not require very much practice as it is a matter of just seeing once. The harder part is to make that insight part of ones thinking/make ones mind in line with that insight, which is when suffering begins to ease. metta Matheesha 51717 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? bardosein Hi Larry, Larry: A slap in the face isn't a joke, but I didn't want it to go too far. I suspected Tep wouldn't be "in the know". The point was to show that words can be a powerful tool that could possibly unburden a person right now. But this is a dangerous technique that can also result in senseless suffering. Even with the little winks I added, the words still sting. The truth of dukkha hurts. --------------------------- Hal: I'm no Zen master, although I did struggle hopelessly with koans for several years. I agree that a slap in the face isn't a joke, but when it happens in a Zen situation, it really is a slap and it really hurts. You can't duplicate that in cyberspace, IMHO without causing serious misunderstandings. The whole point of the Zen Master's slap, is based on the realization that language and thoughts have become a burden and a barrier to accessing liberating wisdom here and now; the shock of the slap, used compassionately at precisely the right moment, is intended to jolt the individual out of his or her cognitive slumbering. At that very moment, dukkha as dukkha is not a conceptual truth; it is "ouch!!!". "Speak and I'll give you thirty lashes; don't speak and I'll give you thirty lashes" A Zen saying. Hal 51718 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Andrew - Yes, I have read your last post to Swee. Now let us discuss only the part that you have not discussed yet. >AT: I know you have said to others that insight comes in varieties >and the highest insight comes at the end of the path, not the beginning. > Whilst that sounds reasonable, whydidn't the Buddha stress >"Right Understanding comes last"? If you are going to contradict >something that is stressed time and time again in the suttas, >I think a solid explanation is called for. Tep: The problem is in the real meanings of understanding(panna). There are several levels of understanding, the same way as there are "varieties" of insight. Insight is under the umbrella of understanding. BTW, I am not sure why you say I am contradicting "something that is stressed time and time again in the suttas". Please provide a clarification. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I think you are stressing a volition-led path, whereas I think the > Buddha many times stressed an insight-led path (by saying that "Right Understanding comes first"). I know you have said to others that insight comes in varieties and the highest insight comes at the end > of the path, not the beginning. Whilst that sounds reasonable, why > didn't the Buddha stress "Right Understanding comes last"? If you > are going to contradict something that is stressed time and time > again in the suttas, I think a solid explanation is called for. To > me, Abhidhamma provides the key - by describing a path process > wherein insight leads the way out of conditioned existence. To the > horror of we worldlings, that process isn't what we want to hear. It > has confronting flavours like 'we don't exist' and 'there is no > control'. Ouch! Bitter medicine indeed. (-: > (snipped) . > > That's all for now, Tep. > > Best wishes > Andrew T > 51719 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana / Aggressive Zen Approach ? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Tep, and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 10/23/05 1:29:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > A slap in the face isn't a joke, but I didn't want it to go too far. -------------------------------------------- Howard: No, of course a Zen slap isn't a joke - it is a kindness. But your talking about that as a reply to Tep's inquiry was at least partly a joke. But as to administering Zen techniques, that is best reserved to realized Zen masters, I think. :-) --------------------------------------- I> > suspected Tep wouldn't be "in the know". The point was to show that > words can be a powerful tool that could possibly unburden a person right > now. But this is a dangerous technique that can also result in senseless > suffering. Even with the little winks I added, the words still sting. > The truth of dukkha hurts. -------------------------------------- Howard: Well, without his realizing what is going on, I would expect the response to be just what Tep's was. So, somehow I'd say that your certainly kind intentions weren't likely to have the auspicious consequences hoped for, and, clearly, they didn't. ----------------------------------- > > Larry > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51720 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, Hal (Attn. Andrew, Ken H, Phil, Sarah) - Your agreeable reply that answers all questions I asked is exceptional: it is clearly written, logical and reasonable, right to the point (no beating around the bush), convincing, and well referenced. In summary, the highlights of our discussion are: 1. .. 'the higher levels of insight' are near the end, not at the beginning near the intellectual level: it is the "sixth level of purification" which is a "long way from the beginning of the path". 2. Samma-ditthi is the noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path(as defined by MN 117 Maha- cattarisaka Sutta) also quoted by James in dsg # 51657. 3. "Right understanding" is the same as right view (samma-ditthi) and "is given at the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path" [Ref. The Buddha's Path to Deliverance, p.49]. Some of us tend to jump to wrong conclusion that right understanding therefore must come first. However, they have missed the point. Why? Because, as you have rightfully stated, " even though right view is listed first among all other factors of the path, the establishment of "noble right view" is achieved in three stages beginning with, sila, samadhi, and then panna. In other words, it is not the first factor to be established at the beginning of the path, it is established towards the end. Right view is dependent on the prior establishment of the morality and concentration factors of the path." 4. The highly regarded Ven. Ledi Sayadaw had no trouble understanding that right view is one of the two Path factors that belong to the panna (wisdom) group, and that right view is "established" through establishing the five purifications of wisdom: "Whoever has been successful in establishing purity of conduct and purity of mind should then try to establish the wisdom group of right view and right intention so as to destroy the latency level of personality view. To have established these two path factors means the establishment in due order of the five purities of wisdom, which are: purity of view, purity of overcoming doubt, purity of knowledge and vision of what is and what is not path, purity of knowledge and vision of the practice-path, purity by supramundane knowledge and vision...." Again, this is another proof that right understanding does not come first, as stated in 1. above. 5. The Ven. Ledi Sayadaw observed that the three bad bodily conducts and four bad speeches were "all born of personality view". Purification of moral conduct cuts off this first level of wrong view. He went on to say, "then in order to destroy the second level of wrong view supported by the three mental evil khammas, the factors of the concentration group in the Eightfold path--right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration--must be established in oneself." This practice to establishing of right view shows that we need other Path factors to get the job done. Again, it is another proof that lokuttara right view does not come first, but rather later in the practice of sila, smadhi, and panna. Hal : As each level of wrong view is eradicated through sila, sammadhi and panna, a corresponding level of right view is established. In other words, could we say that there are three levels of right view, the first two being mundane, with the latter being surpramundane? Tep: Or you may say the whole process of right view development is carried out in stages. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" (snipped) > > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for your comments and questions! > > Tep: "...'the higher levels of insight' are near the end, not at the > beginning near the intellectual level (similar to what Matheesha and > Howard have said)." > > Hal: Yes, this point is worth stressing. The sixth level of > purification is a long way from the beginning of the path. > ----------------------------------------- > > Tep: You mean samma-ditthi = the noble right view, without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path(as defined by MN 117 > Maha-cattarisaka Sutta)? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > > Hal: Yes, as James' excellent post (# 51657) stated so much more > clearly. > ----------------------------------------- > (snipped) > > Hal: Even though right view is listed first among all other factors > of the path, the establishment of "noble right view" is achieved in > three stages beginning with, sila, sammadhi and then panna. In other > words, it is not the first factor to be established at the beginning > of the path, it is established towards the end. Right view is > dependent on the prior establishment of the morality and > concentration factors of the path. > > -------------------------------------------- > As Ledi Sayadaw points out: > (snipped) > ------------------------------------------------- > Hal: As Ledi Sayadaw has shown, it is only when the sila and sammadhi > groups of the Eighfold Path are established that the noble right view > can then be realized. His remarks concerning the three levels of > wrong view are cited in post (# 51072). As each level of wrong view > is eradicated through sila, sammadhi and panna, a corresponding level of right view is established. In other words, could we say that > there are three levels of right view, the first two being mundane, > with the latter being surpramundane? > > > ___________________________________________________ > "We had the experience but missed the meaning...." T.S. Eliot > 51751 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, As I was saying, I began my Buddhist studies by following the usual formal practices. It seemed the obvious thing to do. Then I learned some basic Abhidhamma and realised I had been misunderstanding the suttas. I realised that reality was nothing more than citta, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. After that earth- shattering intellectual realisation, how could there be any continued interest in formal practice? Why should there be? Once it is understood that there are only dhammas, how could there be any desire to attain anything? Who or what attains? No conditioned dhamma persists from one moment to the next. None of them will attain anything. But there is a middle way by which "practice" and "attainment" take on a totally new, unconventional, meaning. Like everything else, "practice" can be understood as just a moment of conditioned dhammas but one that contains mundane right understanding. And "attainment" can be understood as a moment that contains supramundane understanding. At no stage is there any need for the idea of self - controlling or guiding the process of enlightenment (or wanting it to happen) - everything is dependent upon conditions. --------------------- M: Formal practice has no disagreements with the suttas and actually makes them easier to understand (need for more assistance from sources of dubious authenticity becomes somewhat superfluous, ---------------------- As you can see, we have gone in separate directions. For me, Abhidhamma provides the meaning behind the suttas: for you, it is an extraneous source of information of dubious authenticity. ----------------------------- M: > because we are learning from the dhammas themselves which is the most acurate source). ------------------------------ You believe formal practice is a process of learning directly from dhammas, as distinct from learning about dhammas. You may be right, but you are staking everything on a theory that is not taught in the texts. According to the texts, learning *directly from* dhammas is conditioned by learning *indirectly about* dhammas, not by formal practice. In turn, direct learning conditions dispassion for, and abandonment of, dhammas. There is no mention of formal practice. ----------------------------------------------- M: > Its not possible to think yourself into understanding anatta, any more than you can think yourself into experiencing the taste of oranges. If you just taste it simply, how much studying about it do you need? ------------------------------------------------ We really aren't talking the same language are we? If oranges are tasted, it is by conditions. The idea of a controlling self that picks up an orange and eats it is a falsehood (a deception). That falsehood can't prevent the tasting of oranges (a concept), but it can prevent right mindfulness of gustatory object (a conditioned dhamma). ------------------------ M: > I'm of course of the idea that it is not possible for the untrained mind (in formal practice) to understand the taste. Untrained in what? Please see that sutta below which asks why some people gain insight slowly (lifetimes?) and quickly (7 years?) 'We will abide in a secluded dwelling a forest, the root of a tree, mountain grotto or cave, a charnel ground, a forest jungle, an open space, or a heap of straw. Returning from the alms round, after the meal is over, we will sit in a cross-legged posture M: Now why would anyone want to sit cross legged in a jungle, doing all this dispelling, when he could just as well go about attaining nibbaana from home? -------------------------------------- Because that (pleasant abiding) was the lifestyle of those monks. The average monk and the average householder do not practise jhana and they do not abide pleasantly in charnel grounds. The attainment of nibbana is vipassana-bhavana, whereas the attainment of jhana is samatha-bhavana. They are two are very different practices. Neither of them is a formal practice, because neither can happen when there is attachment or when there is the idea of a controlling self (or when there is any other akusala mental factor). ------------------------------ M: > The need to go into a jungle is to develop so many mental factors needed for gaining insight. Otherwise the existence of monkhood is meaningless. This is why im suggesting formal practice is necessary. ----------------- Thanks for your thoughts, Matheesha. I hope you will change your attitude towards the Abhidhamma. At least, I hope you will become interested in learning how Buddhaghosa and other early commentators understood the suttas. Ken H 51752 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:43am Subject: Meditation on this foul Body: Kayagata-Sati ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: KayagataSati: Seeing the Body merely as a form of crumbling matter: Mindfulness of the body, continually seeing it as a skeleton, hair, skin, nails, teeth, flesh, organs and nothing else  just an ownerless filthy sack of bones, not-me-nor-mine, but the creator of physical pain - is the easy way of establishing continuous mindfulness of the danger of existence: Decay, Ageing & Death ! For Inspiration have a collection of Corpse Pictures Viewable only by adults (>18y) signed in with Yahoo ID! been deposited here: http://asia.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/clever_disgust/album?.dir=/f672 Majjhima Nikaya 119: Kayagata-Sati Sutta Mindfulness Focused on the Body as just a Form of mere Matter. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a large number of Bhikkhus, after the meal, on returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall when this discussion arose: "Isn't it amazing, friends! Isn't it astounding! -- the extent to which mindfulness focused on the Body as a Form of Matter, when developed & practiced, is said by the Blessed One who knows, who sees -- the worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- to be of great fruit & great benefit." And this discussion came to no conclusion. Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he sat down there, he addressed the Bhikkhus: "For what topic are you gathered together here? And what was the topic of discussion that came to no conclusion?" "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall when this discussion arose: 'Isn't it amazing, friends! Isn't it astounding! -- the extent to which mindfulness focused on the body as a form of matter, when developed & practiced, is said by the Blessed One who knows, who sees -- the worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- to be of great fruit & great benefit.' This was the discussion that had come to no conclusion when the Blessed One arrived." Then the Blessed One said: "And how is mindfulness focused on the body as [impersonal] matter developed, how is it practiced, undertaken & completed so as to be of great fruit & great advantage? Awareness gained by Breathing. There is the case where a Bhikkhu -- having gone out into nature, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body upright erect and setting up mindfulness up in front. Always aware, he breathes in; always aware he breathes out: When inhaling long, he notes that he inhaling long; exhaling long, he notes that he is exhaling long. Inhaling short, he notes that he is inhaling short; exhaling short, he notes that he is exhaling short.He trains himself to inhale aware of the entire body and to exhale sensitive to the entire body.1 He trains himself to inhale calming bodily construction and to exhale calming bodily construction.2 And as he remains thus attentive, enthusiastic & determined, any memories & motivations related to the household life are left & with their removal his mind gathers & settles inwardly, calms down & focus into unification. This is how a Bhikkhu develops mindfulness focused on the body as an ownerless form of matter.. Noting the four Postures. Furthermore, when walking, the Bhikkhu notes that he is walking. When standing, he notes that he is standing. When sitting, he notes that he is sitting. When lying down, he notes that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he notes it so. And as he remains thus attentive, enthusiastic & determined, any memories & motivations related to the household life are left & with their removal his mind gathers & settles inwardly, calms & focus into unification. This is how a Bhikkhu develops mindfulness focused on the body merely as a form of matter.. [remote control bio-robot] Clear Comprehension of action. Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully aware, clearly comprehending the current action; when looking toward & looking away...when bending & extending his limbs...when carrying his robe & his bowl., when eating, drinking, chewing, & tasting, when urinating & excreting, when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully aware of that. And as he remains thus attentive, enthusiastic & determined, any memories & motivations related to the household life are left & with their removal his mind gathers & settles inwardly, calms & focus into unification. This is how a Bhikkhu develops mindfulness focused on the body as an alien form of fatter.. Scanning the Disgusting Body parts. Furthermore, the Bhikkhu reflects as by scanning on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of disgusting things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, faeces, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, spit, slime, fluid in the joints, urine.' Just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice'; in the same way, the Bhikkhu reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean disgusting things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, faeces, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, spit, slime, fluid in the joints, urine.' And as he remains thus attentive, enthusiastic & determined, any memories & motivations related to the household life are left & with their removal his mind gathers & settles inwardly, calms & focus into unification. This is also how a Bhikkhu develops mindfulness focused on the body simply as a complex structure of [loathsome] material.. <.....> Notes & Comments: 1: "Entire Body" here has several connotations: A: Whole body experienced sequentially scanning all parts & furthermore in one & same sensation. B: Both the Physical Body made of the 4 great elements: (extension, cohesion, heat, diffusion); & the Mental Body 'made of': (contact, feeling, perception, intention & attention). C: Whole 'Breath Body' which means awareness of the start, middle & end of the in&exhalations. 2:"Calming Bodily Construction" here means calming all movement of muscles, thereby also breathing. Calming bodily construction also includes reducing all biochemical metabolism of sugar, protein, lipids & all other compounds. It also means slowing the heartbeat & the deceleration of the blood flow. It signifies the stilling of all physical or chemical processes taking place in the body. On the elemental level it means relaxing the extension, spreading the cohesion, cooling the heat & slow down the diffusion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51753 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 0:58am Subject: Delhi or Dubai: 'the most important thing is understanding' sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'The most important thing is understanding'. I keep reflecting on this reminder I was given as we parted from the group and as I rest up and try to get on top of a chesty cough condition before our flight back to Hong Kong early tomorrow morning. So often we're led astray by our attachments and ignorance into thinking that the most important thing is good health, good relationships, good experiences through the senses, feeling happy and not having upsets or having less appartent defilements and so on. But when there is understanding of presently appearing dhammas as namas and rupas, there is no doubt about the path, no hopelessness or helplessness, no question of over-striving or doing nothing, no concern about 'me' and 'my' defilements or what kamma has in store for us. We can be anywhere and visible object is just the same - a rupa to be known for what it is...the world at this moment. The same applies to any other dhamma which is apparent. James and all, I'm reading and keeping an eye on all those details, never fear:). Nina will be away in India for a couple more weeks but always sends lots of regards and thinks of everyone. Always special rgds to James from Lodewijk:). Lodewijk started the trip by saying this would definitely be his last, but on the last nite in Kashmir, he announced he intended to join us again next time. All the petty annoyances and irritations were just that - petty and minor. Jean, welcome to DSG. I shared your qu about the ancient Sinhalese texts with Nina and she said she knew little about them. I'll try to check in a couple of books when I get home tomorrow. Please tell us anything more about your studies and so anytime. (Many thx to Larry for welcoming newcomers). Azita, hope you're having a good time with yr daughters in Dubai. Most people got sick (again) in Kashmir including K.Sujin, but we had some pleasant quiet times relaxing with her whilst most the groups went off on more sight-seeing trips. Everyone will be able to hear the edited recordings of discussions in due course. On the last afternoon in Delhi with the group, a few of us sat together outside an impressive colonial-style hotel, overlooking the lawns and sipping tea, rather than shop further. John K asked us for our 'highlights' of the trip. I mentioned sitting under a shady tree in Jetavana, Savatthi near the remains of the Buddha's kuti as we discussed present dhammas. For him, it was the growing interest in the discussions (as a 'newcomer' to hearing K.Sujin and a newcomer to all the Pali terminology too)as well as the backdrop of India which he loves. I think Christine mentioned that the contrast with last year and far less dosa this time and far less sense of being 'overwhelmed' struck her, for Sukin it was 'thinking about thinking' continuously. He'd have to elaborate. For Jon, we didn't quite get round to him, but he mentioned he was going to say that all the discussions (in Thai and especially English) were the highlights for him. For Maeve, a very dear friend who we'd not seen for over 20 years before the trip, the highlight was Bodh Gaya.....sitting under the Bo tree as the group simply settled to pay respects, have dhamma discussion and then walk around the stupa with candles. (John K and Maeve, hope we hear more from you in due course and also Sukin and Chris). Many memories and good reminders, but again how easily we slip into thinking about the past, lost in one set of stories or other with attachment, completely forgetting about the present dhammas now, whether in Delhi, Dubai or anywhere else. Thank you everyone for all the excellent discussions in our absence. I'll look forward to catching up and being back in the hot seat when we get home and have put our bags full of laundry into the machine..:). Metta, Sarah p.s Jaran, nice to hear from you. Look forward to seeing you and anyone else in Bangkok in February or any other time. Joop, hope this isn't too personal for your liking - good to see you around:). ========================================== 51754 From: "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: Meditation on this foul Body: Kayagata-Sati ... !!! leoaive Hi It says in Dhamma books about unseemly shows. I think those photos are close to that kind of shows. Do you think Buddha meditation would go to that kind of extremes? Or just understand organs as grains? With metta Leo 51755 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: Delhi or Dubai: 'the most important thing is understanding' jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'The most important thing is understanding'. Sarah: "Joop, hope this isn't too personal for your liking - good to see you around" Joop: o, yes, it is, but never mind. One of the things I have learned in DSG is the power of repetition (about anatta or whatever), so every x-months I repeat my opinion about another culture and structure of DSG. Glad to read again of you, have you noticed that the month the India- goers were in India, only men posted in DSG? As I said to Azita: great battles. Some weeks ago I have been to a retreat in Switzerland (Beatenberg) with Stephen and Martine Batchelor; the talks of Stephen were about the life of the Buddha, based on the Pali-canon but not always really Theravadin: great battle with him too (I said to him I can already predict the review of Bhikkhu Bodhi about the book based on this talks: he will not be amused) A second semi-personal remark of me (!): two years ago I was in Sri Lanka, for three weeks. My intention was to be there as a pilgrim, to visit the cities that played a role in history of Theravada, Anaraddapura, Kandy etc. I was the only person who thought I was a pilgrim, other westerners thought I was a backpacker and the local Sri Lankan people perceived (and treated) me as a tourist. It was difficult to resist the power of this perception of others. Perhaps the fact that I was alone, strengthened this; when visiting with a group there is a kind of cocoon that protects against it. Did you experience something like that? (Only the four days in a meditation centre near Kandy doing 'formal' (I don't like that word) meditation I felt myself a buddhist, with other westerners) When you are back in Hong Kong I hope to continue our discussion about the (im)possiblility that Theravada can evolve (at least at pannatti-level) and why in your eyes Ven. Nyanaponika is wrong when he thinks it can. Mudita Joop 51756 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: Meditation on this foul Body: Kayagata-Sati ... !!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > > Hi > > It says in Dhamma books about unseemly shows. I think those photos are close to that kind of shows. Do you think Buddha meditation would go to that kind of extremes? Or just understand organs as grains? > > With metta > Leo > I have no spiritual need seeing that kind of pictures. As far I understand Abhidhamma, the body (rupa) is innocent! When there is desire, it's not rupa but nama in 'me' that causes it. With Karuna Joop 51757 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: Meditation on this foul Body: Kayagata-Sati ... !!! christine_fo... Hello Leo, Joop, (Bhikkhu Samahita), all, As we all know, photography, cameras, and film did not exist in the Buddha's time. But then, unlike now, there was the opportunity readily available in daily life to see and reflect on the impermanence and not-selfness of the body - especially during the different stages of its decomposition after death. The photographs are possibly more suitable for the Nine Charnel Ground Contemplations (vs. 6-14 of MN 10). In the 'Navasivathika Pabba (Section on Nine Stages of Corpses)' of the Satipatthana Sutta and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta The Buddha encouraged this contemplation for impressing on the mind the ideal of the body's transience and insubstantiality. It is part of Kayanupassana (Contemplation on the Body) which is the subject of Bhikkhu Samahita's post. You may be interested in: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati07.htm and the notes at: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati19.htm In his notes to the Majjhima Nikaya, Bhikkhu Bodhi says that 'the phrase "as though" (seyyathaapi) suggests that this meditation, and those to follow [in the sutta], need not be based upon an actual encounter with a corpse in the state of decay described, but can be performed as an imaginative exercise. "This same body" is, of course, the meditatior's own body'. (Though, one wonders, in this day and age in western society - when we put our sick and elderly out if sight in institutions, and often have their dead bodies given a cosmetic treatment by the funeral director, how to have a base in memory for an imaginative exercise - so collections of photographs are of value for those interested in following this particular Contemplation). metta, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > > Hi > > It says in Dhamma books about unseemly shows. I think those photos are > close to that kind of shows. Do you think Buddha meditation would go to > that kind of extremes? Or just understand organs as grains? > > With metta > Leo > 51758 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:47am Subject: And then Sukin ..... christine_fo... Hello all, Having seen the level of alertness and concern during our three days in Kashmir - (arrivng ten days after the earthquake, and on the day an Indian Minister and some of his party was ambushed and killed in Srinigar by insurgents) we had grown used to seeing soldiers in camoflage gear (even the Sikh soldiers had turbans in camoflage colours), every few hundred metres, even in the countryside along the roads - all armed. Most of those sprinkled across the roads and rooftops had black scarves covering their faces from just below their eyes, and there was a level of tenseness mixed with boredom. When the tour bus was stopped at a stall selling saffron, and the Thais were happily bargaining with the stall owners, I went back to sit on the bus, with the driver's helper, and a few others. An Indian soldier armed with a rifle got on the bus, seemingly interrogated the driver's helper in a loud voice with his face a few inches from the 'very polite' man's face, looked expressionlessly at me who was smiling tentatively, strolled down the bus isle, looking over the belongings of the absent Thais, strolled back, snarled at the 'very polite' driver's helper again, ignored my anxious and placative smile and got down off the bus. The helper and I said nothing, but exchanged meaningful glances and raised eyebrows. A few minutes later the same soldier ordered the bus to advance just 20 feet along the road, then seemed to lose interest. On the day of our departure from Kashmir, we were sitting in the airport lounge in Srinigar, armed soldiers everywhere, waiting for our flight to Delhi. We had been subjected to two body searches within the airport already - but, like the good dhamma study group members that we are, we, of course, realised that the body parts that these people were clutching, patting, massaging and poking were not I, not me, not mine, not what I am, not any self ... really... (there was actually another search to come on the tarmac before climbing into the plane.) We had been warned by the tour organisers that we needed to take the batteries out of everything we owned and store them in our large suitcase. It is absolutely amazing how much of what we have is run by battery ... cameras, mp3 players, clocks, watches, torches, toothbrushes etc. There was a feeling of unreality for me - as if we were part of movie or an 'experience' put on for tourists ... Perhaps that is what made Sukin do it ... that, or a rush of blood to the brain .... :-) :-) Being in the business he is in, Sukin always seems to have the latest gadget, and this time he had a mobile phone with all the bells and whistles, including the ability to take photographs. I was sitting with he and Sarah and a few others, and then Sukin began holding his mobile phone up and sizing up a photo of the tarmac, the plane and the SOLDIER COMING TOWARDS HIM WITH THE KALASHNIKOV. Sukin!!!!!! Dear Dhamma Friend .... I don't know how to tell you this ... but I'm NOT sitting next to you in airports in a Disputed- Zone again - at least not unless I have your mobile phone in my hand-bag. This soldier was expressionless, but quite polite. Sukin was expressionless, and quite polite in return. We all agreed there was a misunderstanding. Sukin put his phone/camera away. The soldier was satisfied. I quietly had palpitations, and looked accusingly at Sukin, and gave some reflection to the possibility on how in the ordinariness of life bad things can happen 'almost accidently' to well-intentioned individuals - it made me ponder on kamma and the openings we give for seeds from the past to ripen. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time-- 51759 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:10am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 10/24/05 1:18:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Matheesha, > > As I was saying, I began my Buddhist studies by following the usual > formal practices. It seemed the obvious thing to do. Then I learned > some basic Abhidhamma and realised I had been misunderstanding the > suttas. I realised that reality was nothing more than citta, > cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: In slightly different language, that's exactly what's taught in the suttas, themselves. What, after all, are the five khandhas? What are the dhatus? ----------------------------------------- After that earth-> > shattering intellectual realisation, how could there be any continued > interest in formal practice? Why should there be? ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is a non-sequitur if ever there was one! ----------------------------------------- > > Once it is understood that there are only dhammas, how could there be > any desire to attain anything? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Surely you are not claiming that having read Abhidhamma you no longer desire, are you? Also, who was that "I" you speak of who realized that he had previously misunderstood the suttas? If "you" can realize things, then "you" can also practice. That's all just a figurative way of expressing what is impractically expressed in a fully literal manner. ---------------------------------------- Who or what attains? No conditioned > > dhamma persists from one moment to the next. None of them > will attain anything. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. No argument here. You believe that. So do I. Has it been directly seen in (what we call) your mindstream? If not, what will change that situation? You seem to me to be saying that realization is attainable in the same way that Dorothy got back to Kansas: "Close you eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, there's no place like home." Results come about due to specific conditions, and merely ritualistically believing, thinking, and repeating truths is not enough. ---------------------------------------------- > > But there is a middle way by which "practice" and "attainment" take > on a totally new, unconventional, meaning. Like everything > else, "practice" can be understood as just a moment of conditioned > dhammas but one that contains mundane right understanding. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, that is changing the meaning to something entirely different. Now your approach seems to me to be closer to Alice in Wonderland (in which things mean simply what one says they mean) than to the Wiard of Oz. Every moment is "just a moment of conditioned dhammas," but not all moments are moments of practice. ------------------------------------------------- > And "attainment" can be understood as a moment that contains > supramundane understanding. At no stage is there any need for the > idea of self - controlling or guiding the process of enlightenment > (or wanting it to happen) - everything is dependent upon conditions. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Who mentioned "self"? A moment of "self" is a moment of illusion. You are throwing a red herring across the way. Approximately 99% of those on DSG believe that "self" is illusion, and some have seen that it is. That is a spurious issue with regard to this discussion. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > > M: Formal practice has no disagreements with the suttas and > actually makes them easier to understand (need for more assistance > from sources of dubious authenticity becomes somewhat superfluous, > ---------------------- > > As you can see, we have gone in separate directions. For me, > Abhidhamma provides the meaning behind the suttas: for you, it is an > extraneous source of information of dubious authenticity. > > ----------------------------- > M: >because we are learning from the dhammas themselves which is the > most acurate source). > ------------------------------ > > You believe formal practice is a process of learning directly from > dhammas, as distinct from learning about dhammas. You may be right, > but you are staking everything on a theory that is not taught in the > texts. According to the texts, learning *directly from* dhammas is > conditioned by learning *indirectly about* dhammas, not by formal > practice. > -------------------------------------- Howard: That's just plain false, Ken. The suttas teach both! It seems to me that you became unhappy with your multi-year Dhamma practice and then used Abhidhamma as a means to escape from what made you unhappy. Not all practice is right practice, and what is very useful for one person may not be for another. A close study of the suttas, and Buddhaghosa for that matter, will point towards right practice. -------------------------------------- In turn, direct learning conditions dispassion for, and > > abandonment of, dhammas. There is no mention of formal practice. --------------------------------------- Howard: I almost never use the term "formal practice" - just "practice". And Dhamma practice is not a one-trick pony. It is complex, and deep, and varied, and requires, quite essentally, ongoing effort and enormous patience. --------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------- > M: >Its not > possible to think yourself into understanding anatta, any more than > you can think yourself into experiencing the taste of oranges. If > you just taste it simply, how much studying about it do you need? > ------------------------------------------------ > > We really aren't talking the same language are we? If oranges are > tasted, it is by conditions. The idea of a controlling self that > picks up an orange and eats it is a falsehood (a deception). That > falsehood can't prevent the tasting of oranges (a concept), but it > can prevent right mindfulness of gustatory object (a conditioned > dhamma). > > ------------------------ > M: >I'm of course of the idea that it is not possible for the > untrained mind (in formal practice) to understand the taste. > > Untrained in what? Please see that sutta below which asks why some > people gain insight slowly (lifetimes?) and quickly (7 years?) > > 'We will abide in a secluded dwelling a forest, the root of a tree, > mountain grotto or cave, a charnel ground, a forest jungle, an open > space, or a heap of straw. Returning from the alms round, after the > meal is over, we will sit in a cross-legged posture > > M: Now why would anyone want to sit cross legged in a jungle, doing > all this dispelling, when he could just as well go about attaining > nibbaana from home? > -------------------------------------- > > Because that (pleasant abiding) was the lifestyle of those monks. > > The average monk and the average householder do not practise jhana > and they do not abide pleasantly in charnel grounds. > > The attainment of nibbana is vipassana-bhavana, whereas the > attainment of jhana is samatha-bhavana. They are two are very > different practices. Neither of them is a formal practice, because > neither can happen when there is attachment or when there is the idea > of a controlling self (or when there is any other akusala mental > factor). > > ------------------------------ > M: >The need to go into a jungle is to develop so > many mental factors needed for gaining insight. Otherwise the > existence of monkhood is meaningless. This is why im suggesting > formal practice is necessary. > ----------------- > > Thanks for your thoughts, Matheesha. I hope you will change your > attitude towards the Abhidhamma. At least, I hope you will become > interested in learning how Buddhaghosa and other early commentators > understood the suttas. > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51760 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi Hal Thanks for citing this passage. Of course, the passage describes one of the higher stages of insight, while our interest is beginning levels of insight. Beginning insight is not about seeing individual moments of dhammas, as I understand it. In any event, what the learned author describes is knowledge of a single moment of consciousness. This is still somewhat less than James' idea of awareness of (multiple) successive momentary mind states over a period of time. Jon Hal wrote: >Greetings Jon, > >James is quite right. Some ariyans should be able to see this level >of mental activity quite clearly. It may not be so unusual for highly >advanced meditators either. A remarkable experience occurs at the >sixth level of insight, during the Knowledge of Contemplation of >Dissolution, just prior to the onset of Appearance as Terror. As Ven. >Mahathera Matara Sri Nanarama states: > >"While this Knowledge of Dissolution is going on within him, the >meditator has the extraordinary experience of being able to see the >thought with which he reflected on dissolution. Then he reflects on >that thought as well. Thus he enters upon a special phase of powerful >insight known as reflective insight (_pativipassana_); it is also >called insight into higher wisdom (_adhipannna vipassana_). As the >_Patisambhidamagga_ says: 'Having reflected on an object, he >contemplates the dissolution of the thought which reflected on the >object. The appearance (of formations) is also void. This is 'insight >into higher wisdom'' (PS1,58). After reflecting on an object >representing the mind-and-matter, the meditator reflects upon the >reflecting thought itself. Thus, he now sees dissolution not only in >every immediate object he adverts to, but in every thought he happens >to think." (_The Seven Stages of Purification and Insight >Knowledges_, p.47) > >Hal > > 51761 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa jonoabb Hi Larry Yes, but the Vism passage mentions just the same dhammas/elements as are mentioned in the suttas: eye consciousness, visible object, eye base, etc. So I'm not sure why you are asking about 'touch/eye sensation'. Can you explain further where this idea comes from, and what exactly your query is? Thanks. Jon Larry wrote: >Jon: "It depends what you mean by 'touch sensation' ;-)). The suttas >talk about touching consciousness (nama), the hardness (rupa) that is >the object of the touching consciousness, and the feeling (vedana, >sometimes translated as 'sensation') that arises dependent on the >contact between those two." > >Hi Jon, > >In the quotation I gave from the Visuddhimagga the eye element is like >the surface of a mirror, the visible data element is like a face, and >the eye-consciousness element is like the image in the mirror. >Obviously the mirror image of a face is not a face. You can't get a >rupa into the mind stream. Also, most of the time there are little >defects in the mirror (eye element), so we don't really know what the >true face is. Anyone who wears glasses know this. For an alternative >view on what eye-consciousness is, see my "pure consciousness" email. > >Larry > > > 51762 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >>My suggestion is, 'being aware of a presently arisen dhamma'. ... >>Awareness of a *single dhamma*, yes, but not necessarily of just >>a single moment of that dhamma. Any comments or thoughts? >> > >Tep: How about awareness (mindfulness and clear comprehension) of >the arising & dissolving phenomena of any of the four frames of >reference (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) in every passing moment, >while putting aside greed(abhijjhaa) & distress(domanassa) with >reference to the world ? > I have no problem with your definition. However, I think it could be simplified somewhat: - by substituting 'a presently arisen dhamma' for 'the arising & dissolving phenomena of any of the four frames of reference (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma)', since these are one and the same thing, and - by recognising that at a moment of awareness there is no greed or distress with reference to the world, so it goes without saying that these have been put aside. Also, does your phrase 'in every passing moment' qualify 'awareness' or 'phenomena'? If the latter, OK, but if the former then I would say that awareness of every moment is not possible (and is not the aim). Happy to fiend we are in substantial agreement ;-)) Jon 51763 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >>Jon: >> >As one hears more and more about the teachings, ponders on what >has been heard, and is able to relate it to the present moment, >moments of right view/right understanding may arise and see >dhammas as they really are. >There is neither the striving to do something, nor is there doing nothing. >By this means, misunderstanding is gradually reduced. > >Tep: >I have no problem accepting your remarks above, Jon. Why? Because >it is neither extreme with the wrong-view like 'this only is true, everything >else is false', nor promising that we will all eventually become Arahants >that way. > I'm sorry if my writing tends to come across like that sometimes. It's not how I mean it, I can assure you. >BTW; have you read the most recent posts by Matheesha and Hal on >this issue? They wrote excellent posts that provide an alternative >perspective. > Yes, I've read their posts. As you will have noticed, there are some differences between my reply and theirs. No doubt we'll get around to discussing those differences at some stage. No hurry, though ;-)) Jon 51764 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:10am Subject: Kusala and akusala development (was, incredible india) jonoabb Hi Mateesha There are many points on which we have different views. It may need more than one post. I'll try to avoid a 'debate' style of response ;-)) matheesha wrote: > ... > >M: Just wanted to say that the arising and accumilation of avijja >would bury any development of panna in the method you describe above >and is therefore impractical IMO. The equivalent of blowing at a >hurricane hoping to stop it. > To my understanding, panna is far more powerful than avijja; if it weren't then there'd be no hope for any of us! ;-)) >When akusala thoughts arise, defilements also accumilate and >increase. Which arises more, kusala or akusala? What you describe is >practically impossible. The idea that we could get rid of >defilements by having random moments of kusala is too mixed up to >think about. > Same issue as above. Yes, there is more akusala in a day than there is kusala, but if there are moments of panna of the level of satipatthana then these can prevail in the long run. Hence the Buddha's assurance that the kilesas *can* be abandoned. >I work in psychiatry - everyone would be cured of all >psychological problems quite easily if this were the case. No one >would need years of therapy. Jon, the mind is very very difficult to >change. The only way to do it in the time span which the buddha >mentioned is through formal practice. It is also meaningless that >the buddha would speak in terms of accumilated time (7 years of >satipattana moments, which is actually spread over severa lifetimes) >because he could have simply said it if that was the case. There is >nothing in the suttas to inidicate such a thing and plenty to >indicate that monks attained in this lifetime, not based on any >accumilations from a previous life, which is again not mentioned. > I'm glad to see your appeal to the suttas, as I think these are the ultimate authority on these questions. Can you give a sutta reference for your proposition that 'The only way to do it in the time span which the Buddha mentioned is through formal practice.' In another post you said that enlightenment could be obtained more quickly by first attaining jhana. Is this something found in the suttas? Perhaps we could discuss these 2 statements in more detail some time. I am somewhat puzzled by the idea mentioned here that kusala developed in previous lifetimes is not carried forward as an accumulated tendency, and I'd be interested to hear you further on this. What is the basis for this, and is it the case for all kusala, as you understand it, or is panna an exception to the general rule? Are kusala qualities different from akusala qualities in this regard? If so, perhaps that is something mentioned in the suttas. Enough for one post, I think ;-)) Jon 51765 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:21am Subject: Hindrances and samatha (was, incredible india) jonoabb Hi Mateesha Continuing with your most recent reply to me ... matheesha wrote: >>At such times the mind is (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. >> > >:), so you are a sotapanna for a moment? > Not at all. The sotapanna has eradicated the underlying (latent) tendency, whereas the worldling has not. No comparison between the 2 ;-)) My point was simply that there are many moments in a day when the hindrances, including sakaya ditthi, are not present. As regards such moments there is no question of the hindrances having to be suppressed. >I think people get mixed up >when they cant correlate abhidhammic thinking and common sense >dextrously enough. Partial understanding leads to logical errors. >There is no sakkaya ditti when sleeping. There are few/no >defilements when sleeping. So the path to nibbana must be through >sleep. A perfeclty logical assumption when you throw >in 'accumilations' and disregard some suttas which describe what is >done during the daytime so that they are not really valid. Lets make >realisation over many lifetimes as well, so that will account for >the fact that no one has really attained anytihng of distinction >from this method but keeps hope going. > Quite so, lack of sakaya ditthi (as when asleep) does not equate to the development of the path. No argument from me on that, of course. >>At such times the mind is (temporarily) rid of defilements >>including sakkaya ditthi. These moments are also moments of >>samatha ('tranquillity') since they are accompanied by passadhi >>cetasika. >> > >KS's theory has internal logical consistency. But has no experience >behind it. No one who has experienced samadhi would make a statement >like the one above. Its to point at a trickle of water and >say 'look, a river'. > Well I am not here to promote or discuss anyone's theory, but to discuss the teachings as found in the texts. If I am not mistaken, you accept the correctness of my statement, but you would say that more needs to be done ('calling a trickle a river'). That I think is the issue we keep coming back to. Can occasional moments of spontaneously occurring panna reverse the otherwise inexorable accumulation of akusala? >Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through >reflecting the Teaching and not a gainer of internal appeasement of >mind should approach that person who is a gainer of internal >appeasement of mind and ask him- Friend, how should the mind be >settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind brought to a >single point be made to concentrate. He would explain it to him, as >he had known it and seen it. Friend, the mind should be settled thus, >quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to >concentrate thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of higher >wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and a gainer of internal >appeasement of mind. > > >http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- >Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm > >The above is a description for developing samadhi. It is formal >practice. It was said by the Buddha. > Yes, I can see the reference to samatha bhavana in the passage you have quoted, but I can not see any particular reference to 'formal practice'. Also, it is one thing to say that the development of samatha is encouraged by the Buddha (no doubt about that), but it is altogether another thing to say that the Buddha gave jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment or the development of insight. There is no suggestion of the latter in the above passage, I think. Jon 51766 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:27am Subject: Kusala and akusala tendencies (was, incredible india) jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >I think the trip to India must have done something to you, Jon. All your >posts so far since you came back are really different from those in the >past. But, I might be assuming. > No real change, I'm afraid, Tep. Still the same old bunch of kilesa ;-)) >>Jon: Among the kinds of kusala that have been developed in the past >> >is right view (panna cetasika). This developed right view may arise >whenever the conditions for its arising is present. Those conditions >include in particular the proper reflection on dhamma heard and >understood. > >Tep: I am hesitating to agree with you about this view of right view and >the "developed right view". It is so unclear that I can't tell where you are >standing. > All I am saying is that there is no essential difference between the kusala qualities and the akusala ones. Kusala and akusala moments arising now add to the existing tendency for that particular kind of kusala/akusala and are carried forward. Nothing more than that. >>Jon: Of course, the latent unwholesome qualities predominate over >> >the latent wholesome ones by a huge margin and so arise more >frequently; the wholesome ones are a tiny minority and need all the >encouragement they can get. > >Tep: It is true that most people have more unwholesomeness than >wholesomeness. But what is the Pali for the "latent wholesome >qualities", Jon? I only know that 'anusaya' = latent unwholesome >qualities. If the Buddha taught those "latent wholesome qualities", that >sutta must have completely escaped me. > The Pali term I have learnt is 'aasaya', but I'm not sure whether it's used in the suttas or just in the commentaries. There is apparently a compound 'aasayanussaya' to refer to the wholesome and unwholesome tendencies together as a whole. I would suggest that the reason why the Buddha spoke mainly or only about the unwholesome latent tendencies is that these are the ones that we need to know about. >Thanks for the interesting conversation, Jon. > And thanks to you, too, Tep. Jon 51767 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Why stop there? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >I must tell you that I truly love your neat thought below. I completely >agree with it. I also have experienced those kinds of moment. ^_* > Everyone has experienced spontaneous kusala, I'm sure. I'm not talking about anything 'special' or any kind of 'experience'. >>Jon: >>...As far as ridding the mind of defilements is concerned, this occurs at >>each moment when kusala consciousness arises. At such times >>the mind is (temporarily) rid of defilements including sakkaya ditthi. >>These moments are also moments of samatha ('tranquillity') since they are accompanied by passadhi cetasika. >> > >Tep: But those moments are just the beginning of something much, >much more valuable. Why stop there? > > Not satisfied with those, and want more? ;-)) Jon 51768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:33am Subject: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment (was, incredible india) jonoabb Hi Loop Loop wrote: >Hallo Jon > >I noticed that too in the message I abstracted in this one to Azita >and the India-goers, with the subtitle " Stream entry is good enough >for me". >The most simple solution is that a stream-enterer in one of his/her >seven (or less) lives per se will do jhanic concentration, 'caused' >by conditions; but I don't know if there are texts about this. > To my knowledge, there is no mention of anything like this in the texts. Given the significance of 'stream-entry', it seems to me that either the attainment of mundane jhana is a necessary prerequisite for all levels of attainment, or it is a necessary prerequisite for none. Jon 51769 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the comments and best wishes. buddhatrue wrote: >James: Okay, whatever floats your boat.;-)) "Present dhamma" >or "Present moment" they are all just words to me. Whatever gets >you to the other shore I am rooting for!! Don't stick to the words, >stay with the actions (mental and physical). > > Yes, but as you noted in another post recently, choice of words can be significant in shaping understanding. There is some benefit in using words that convey the appropriate shade of meaning, as far as possible. >James: Hi Jon- I don't have anything else to tell you, but thank you >for sharing your thoughts. (BTW, Hal expresses something later that >is worth noting). My advice: Hug your wife real tight, kiss her on >the cheeks, and tell her that you love her. That is all >the "dhammas" I want to hear out of you for a while!! (but not >Sarah). > > Thanks for the domestic advice! ;-)) Jon 51770 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > > >>I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). >> >> > >James: Thank god you have finally accepted this as (somewhat) fact! >Now, if we could just get you to move from accepting it as a fodder >for double-entre jokes, to really accepting it as a real possiblity!- > we would have gone really far! > Don't hold your breath ;-)) Jon 51771 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment nidive Hi Matheesha, Thank you for your thoughts and advice. You are really a great friend in this True Dhamma. I find that a lot of the Dhamma that you speak about in various posts really reflects my very own thoughts. Regards, Swee Boon 51772 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation on this foul Body: Kayagata-Sati ... !!! mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... Hi there... There are basically 2 types of meditations available in the world today: 1. Satipatana (Vipassana) 2. Samatha Satipatana or what we called Vipassana uses the 4 Station of Mindfulness while Samatha basically have 40 types of objects. Both meditation have different direction. All Buddhist main purpose of life SHOULD be, to attain enlightenment thus we Buddhist should practices Satipatana or Vipassana. However long before Buddha, people already knew about meditation and they practice for Jhana. This type of meditation is called Samatha Meditation which uses one of the 40 object as meditation. There are 6 characteristic of people around and each characteristic will need one specifiec object to suspress the 5 hindercess. If one character is Greed, there are 10 types of Object which uses Dead body depanding on what type of greed, one has. Some required rotten or drown or etc. There are 2 things we need to understand here... both meditation are Maha Kusala and both meditation lead to 2 different direction (one for Jhana and one for enlightenment). I would say that one leading into Samsara while the other out of samsara. The Buddha practice under 2 teachers before he went out to practice himself and become SammaSamBuddha. When he look back to search for his 2 old teachers, he found out that they have passed away and went to Arupa World. I believe the Buddha wasn't happy as He knew that they won't be able to attain enlightenment and they would need to wait for many many Buddha to come by before they can come down from all those Arupa and Rupa planes. Any birth in any of the 31 planes of existance is consider Samsara.... even being plasant for a very long period of time as it will one day end and the cycle of rebirth and death will starts again. We Buddhist should practice "The 8 Fold Path" which specifically speak about the 4 stations of mindfulness which is Satipatana Meditation.... Hope this helps Metta mr39515 Note: Anapanasati which uses breathing (raise and fall) is one of the Object of Samatha Meditation.... --- "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)" wrote: > Hi > > It says in Dhamma books about unseemly shows. I > think those photos are > close to that kind of shows. Do you think Buddha > meditation would go to > that kind of extremes? Or just understand organs as > grains? <....> 51773 From: "D." Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:22am Subject: The fouteen undecided questions of the Buddha djimpa2002 Hi Friends of the Buddha-Dharma Let me shortly introduce myself, name is Djimpa, this is my first post in your study-forum, since a couple of time i use to read (from time to time) silently the content and post of this list. My purpose is not on a regulare basis to engage into your debates, but i hope i can clarify from time to time different points of interest and objects of questions of my self-study. Here is the first: I came across a statement, found in a book, The Pali canon contains several references to the fourteen undecided questions that follow the structure of the tetralemma. The Buddha refused to agree to any of these questions when they were put to him by the mendicant Vacchagotta. For example: Gotama denies that...the Thatagatha passes to another existence after death here...does not pass to another existence after his death, and that the Tathagatha neither passes nor not pass to another existence after his death here. Into more detail: These fourteen questions are as follows: 1.) The four wrong views of whether the Thus Gone One exists after death, does not exist, both, or neither. 2.)The four wrong views of whether the world is eternal, not eternal, both, or neither. 3.)The four wrong views of whether the world has an end, has no end, both, or neither. 4.) The two wrong views of whether the soul (or the self) and the body are one, or different. [references in the Pali canon, see Della Santina 1986, p.15 (since i don't own this book i can not verify the content)] The reasoning of the Buddha: To hold that the world is eternal, or to hold that is not, or to agree of any other of the prepositions you adduce, Vaccha, is the thicket of theorizing. the wilderness of theorizing, the bondage...the tangle and the shackles of theorizing, attended by ill, distress, perturbation and fever; it conduces not to aversion, passionlessness, tranquillity, peace, illumination and Nirvana. This is the danger I discern in these views, which makes me scorn them all. Both the dialectic structure and the content of the these fourteen questions have their exact parallels in Nagarjunas Fundamental Verses and other texts. Also in the Brahmajalasutta (Digha Nikaya), the Buddha discards all theories, views, and speculations as dogmatic narrow mindedness (Skt. ditthiväda) and refuses to be drawn into their net (jala) Any valid insight on this points from the Therevada school of thought, would be most appreciated. 51774 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:56am Subject: Re: And then Sukin ..... buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Phil and Sukin), I have really enjoyed your post about the soldiers of India! It brought to mind many things and it made me laugh out loud- especially the part about Sukin taking photos of the soldier at the end. It was also very well written. It made me wish that you would post more and to also miss Phil's posts which often tell anecdotes (Hi Phil if you are reading!). Of course this is just attachment on my part, but just sharing what I thought. I wanted to comment on one thing that you post made me think of. Growing up in America I hardly ever saw soldiers. To see soldiers or guards was a very rare event. Now, I would see security people standing in banks on occasion, but they didn't carry big guns and their uniforms were as friendly as UPS delivery men. So, I got a big shock when I came to Egypt and now see quite a few soldiers at several different locations- and their uniforms aren't friendly and they carry very large rifles! However, this experience has helped my meditation. "Helped my meditation?" you may wonder. Yes, it helped my meditation because I finally understood a very important commentary to the Anapanasati Sutta that I never really understood before. It is referred to in an article by Ven. Mahathera Nauyane Ariyadhamma: " This work of contemplating the breath at the area around the nostrils, without following it inside and outside the body, is illustrated by the commentaries with the similes of the gatekeeper and the saw. Just as a gatekeeper examines each person entering and leaving the city only as he passes through the gate, without following him inside or outside the city, so the meditator should be aware of each breath only as it passes through the nostrils, without following it inside or outside the body. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyadhamma/bl115.html Gatekeeper? I didn't know what the heck a gatekeeper was- until I moved to Egypt and saw the soldier gatekeepers everywhere. Now, I can keep them in mind when I focus on the breath- hopefully with the same tireless dedication they guard various locations with those big guns! ;-)) Just thought I would share. Metta, James ps. There are also signs around military complexes which read "No Photos" in Arabic and English. My cell phone has the ability to take photos also but I have never dared to take a photo of a soldier! Sukin, you have some nerve, buddy! ;-)) 51775 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:15am Subject: Re: Kusala and akusala development (was, incredible india) nidive Hi Jon (& Matheesha), > To my understanding, panna is far more powerful than avijja; if it > weren't then there'd be no hope for any of us! ;-)) Which is more powerful? A moment of panna, or consecutive moments of panna? I think the latter is more powerful. > I'm glad to see your appeal to the suttas, as I think these are the > ultimate authority on these questions. Can you give a sutta > reference for your proposition that 'The only way to do it in the > time span which the Buddha mentioned is through formal practice.' I think the career of a monk is to engage in "formal practice" as described in DN 22. That is a monk's profession. Just as an accountant engages in "formal practice" in an accounting firm, or a lawyer engages in "formal practice" in a law firm, or a doctor engages in "formal practice" in a hospital. The difference (and fortunate thing) is that the "formal practice" of a monk is also available to lay persons who want to take it up. > In another post you said that enlightenment could be obtained more > quickly by first attaining jhana. Is this something found in the > suttas? Of course it is! -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant' ... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye- contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither- pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant' ... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." -------------------------------------------------------------------- And we all know that the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the jhanas and that he also said that the "knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present" leads to Right Release. But I also know that you will still disagree. > I am somewhat puzzled by the idea mentioned here that kusala > developed in previous lifetimes is not carried forward as an > accumulated tendency, and I'd be interested to hear you further > on this. What is the basis for this, and is it the case for all > kusala, as you understand it, or is panna an exception to the > general rule? Are kusala qualities different from akusala > qualities in this regard? If so, perhaps that is something > mentioned in the suttas. I have never read in any suttas where the Buddha said that panna is an underlying kusala tendency. Jon, is panna really an underlying kusala tendency just as ignorance is an underlying akusala tendency (anusaya)? Regards, Swee Boon 51776 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:16am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Howard and Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Matheesha) - > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's just plain false, Ken. The suttas teach both! It seems to me > that you became unhappy with your multi-year Dhamma practice and then used > Abhidhamma as a means to escape from what made you unhappy. Not all practice is > right practice, and what is very useful for one person may not be for another. A > close study of the suttas, and Buddhaghosa for that matter, will point towards > right practice. > -------------------------------------- Right on, Howard!! As I have said before, it seems to me that Ken H., Sarah, Jon, etc. belong to the "International Disgruntled Meditators Society" ;-)). They were not taught properly, had the wrong expectations, chased after the wrong dreams, etc. And then KS came in on her gleaming, white horse to safe them all from the horrors of meditation practice- just listen to my radio program, visit my foundation, and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs, and then the blessings of the dhamma will be open for you! Bunk!!! And we need to make it abundantly clear that this is not about the Abhidhamma, this is about KS. Really, I don't like to get personal and to confront people in a personal manner, but sometimes it just must be done. How else are you going to say the same thing? I love all my dhamma brothers and sisters on this list, very sincerely, but sometimes love must be tough love. Thank you again, Howard, for finally getting tough. Metta, James 51777 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:22am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nidive Hi James, > Right on, Howard!! As I have said before, it seems to me that Ken > H., Sarah, Jon, etc. belong to the "International Disgruntled > Meditators Society" ;-)). They were not taught properly, had the > wrong expectations, chased after the wrong dreams, etc. And then KS > came in on her gleaming, white horse to safe them all from the > horrors of meditation practice- just listen to my radio program, > visit my foundation, and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs, and > then the blessings of the dhamma will be open for you! Bunk!!! LOL! Though tough love it is! Regards, Swee Boon 51778 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Jon and Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Hal > > Thanks for citing this passage. Of course, the passage describes one of > the higher stages of insight, while our interest is beginning levels of > insight. James: Whose "our interest" are you describing? Not mine. My interest is full insight, not just beginning levels. Beginning insight is not about seeing individual moments of > dhammas, as I understand it. James: Yes, I would agree with you here; but again, why this emphasis on "beginning insight"? It is quite possible to see individual moments of dhammas for those willing to make the effort. > > In any event, what the learned author describes is knowledge of a single > moment of consciousness. This is still somewhat less than James' idea > of awareness of (multiple) successive momentary mind states over a > period of time. James: No, you have not understood what this author describes. What this author describes could only be discerned if successive momentary mind states are discerned. > > Jon Metta, James 51779 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > Thanks for the comments and best wishes. > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >James: Okay, whatever floats your boat.;-)) "Present dhamma" > >or "Present moment" they are all just words to me. Whatever gets > >you to the other shore I am rooting for!! Don't stick to the words, > >stay with the actions (mental and physical). > > > > > > Yes, but as you noted in another post recently, choice of words can be > significant in shaping understanding. James: Thank you so much for really paying attention to my posts and remembering them. That means a lot to me. :-) There is some benefit in using > words that convey the appropriate shade of meaning, as far as possible. James: You do have something of a point here but maybe you have missed the deeper meaning of what I was saying about words. Words shape our reality (our reality based on delusion) and so we should be careful about the words we use AND we should also realize that words have no ultimate meaning. Paradoxical I know- but reality is that way. So I say 'Awareness of the present moment' you say 'Awareness of the present dhamma'. Whatever. Tomato-Tomato. > > >James: Hi Jon- I don't have anything else to tell you, but thank you > >for sharing your thoughts. (BTW, Hal expresses something later that > >is worth noting). My advice: Hug your wife real tight, kiss her on > >the cheeks, and tell her that you love her. That is all > >the "dhammas" I want to hear out of you for a while!! (but not > >Sarah). > > > > > > Thanks for the domestic advice! ;-)) James: Hehehe...that was a bit over the top. Sorry for getting so personal. Sometimes my fingers get away from me on the keyboard and I don't stop to seriously consider the effects of my words. That is a bad habit of mine which gets me into a lot of trouble! Anyway, I just wanted to express to you both my sincere appreciation for what you have done for me and to wish you both the highest of happiness in your relationship. So, I was rather clumsy with the first time...it won't be the last time that happens! ;-)) > > Jon > Metta, James 51780 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi Jon, > > > > > >>I am of course one of those 'stubborn' ones ;-)). > >> > >> > > > >James: Thank god you have finally accepted this as (somewhat) fact! > >Now, if we could just get you to move from accepting it as a fodder > >for double-entre jokes, to really accepting it as a real possiblity!- > > we would have gone really far! > > > > Don't hold your breath ;-)) James: Hehehe...you rascal! I will be keeping an eye on you! ;-)) > > Jon > Metta, James 51781 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 10/24/05 12:17:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, Ken (and Matheesha) - > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That's just plain false, Ken. The suttas teach both! It > seems to me > >that you became unhappy with your multi-year Dhamma practice and > then used > >Abhidhamma as a means to escape from what made you unhappy. Not > all practice is > >right practice, and what is very useful for one person may not be > for another. A > >close study of the suttas, and Buddhaghosa for that matter, will > point towards > >right practice. > >-------------------------------------- > > Right on, Howard!! As I have said before, it seems to me that Ken > H., Sarah, Jon, etc. belong to the "International Disgruntled > Meditators Society" ;-)). They were not taught properly, had the > wrong expectations, chased after the wrong dreams, etc. And then KS > came in on her gleaming, white horse to safe them all from the > horrors of meditation practice- just listen to my radio program, > visit my foundation, and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs, and > then the blessings of the dhamma will be open for you! Bunk!!! > > And we need to make it abundantly clear that this is not about the > Abhidhamma, this is about KS. > > Really, I don't like to get personal and to confront people in a > personal manner, but sometimes it just must be done. How else are > you going to say the same thing? I love all my dhamma brothers and > sisters on this list, very sincerely, but sometimes love must be > tough love. Thank you again, Howard, for finally getting tough. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the support, James. However, with regard to Khun Sujin, "... and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs" is rather "tougher" than I would ever care to get. :-( ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51782 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:29am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James - > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks for the support, James. However, with regard to Khun Sujin, > "... and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs" is rather "tougher" than I would > ever care to get. :-( > ---------------------------------------- Oh, so sorry for offending your sensibilities. Those are my words (and I own them... with no regerets) and I don't wish to associate my approach/thinking with yours. We are two very distinct/different individuals. Because of my upbringing (which you are aware of) I am more willing to be much more 'tough' then others. That is the way I am. But my 'toughness' always comes with love (though not always pure love...sometimes misdirected...sometimes screwed up...always delusional! LOL! ;-)). Is "grovel at my heels like obedient dogs" such a terrible metaphor? I don't think so: I LOVE DOGS!! My family has always had at least three or four dogs at a time and I loved them all! Right now, my parents have Harley, Molson, and Stinky. And I get constant updates about their health and well-being, because I want to know. Sometimes I wonder if I like dogs more than humans! ;-)) (again... always check your perceptions) Metta, James 51783 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 10/24/05 1:31:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, James - > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Thanks for the support, James. However, with regard to Khun > Sujin, > >"... and grovel at my heels like obedient dogs" is > rather "tougher" than I would > >ever care to get. :-( > >---------------------------------------- > > Oh, so sorry for offending your sensibilities. Those are my words > (and I own them... with no regerets) and I don't wish to associate > my approach/thinking with yours. We are two very distinct/different > individuals. Because of my upbringing (which you are aware of) I am > more willing to be much more 'tough' then others. That is the way I > am. But my 'toughness' always comes with love (though not always > pure love...sometimes misdirected...sometimes screwed up...always > delusional! LOL! ;-)). > > Is "grovel at my heels like obedient dogs" such a terrible > metaphor? I don't think so: I LOVE DOGS!! My family has always had > at least three or four dogs at a time and I loved them all! Right > now, my parents have Harley, Molson, and Stinky. And I get constant > updates about their health and well-being, because I want to know. > Sometimes I wonder if I like dogs more than humans! ;-)) (again... > always check your perceptions) > > Metta, > James > ===================== Yes, of course you have every right to express your opinion, and to do so in the manner you wish, and not as I wish. Likewise, I have the right to clarify the fact that I don't share an opinion or a particular expression if it. (Yes, of course we are two distinct individuals, though we tend to agree more than disagree on matters of Dhamma.) The thing is, often silence signals assent - so I decided not to keep quiet. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51784 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:17am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James - > ===================== > Yes, of course you have every right to express your opinion, and to do > so in the manner you wish, and not as I wish. Likewise, I have the right to > clarify the fact that I don't share an opinion or a particular expression if > it. (Yes, of course we are two distinct individuals, though we tend to agree > more than disagree on matters of Dhamma.) The thing is, often silence signals > assent - so I decided not to keep quiet. :-) Thank you for your so sweet response. We must be on the Internet at the same time! (so nice to feel connected to you in this way.) Yes, I understand why you commented and I hold no grudges either way because of it. Some may think, "Why is this crazy, incoherent, wild- man comparing some of our beloved members to dogs?" and I would understand why. I knew that would happen when I wrote what I wrote. Again (are you paying attention Larry?) this is the Zen aspect in me coming out. I often write shocking things in order to enlighten/awaken other people. I knew that they would get quite upset and turn into a throng of angry bees, but I didn't really mean anything bad by it. So, I am looking after my own mind- because that is where kamma and vipaka arises. If they turn into a swarm of angry bees and everyone does their best to dissociate from me, then let it be. I only care about my own mind state. I didn't mean any harm so I feel that no harm was done. Metta, James 51785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment (was, incredible india) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Loop > > Loop wrote: > > >Hallo Jon > > > >I noticed that too in the message I abstracted in this one to Azita > >and the India-goers, with the subtitle " Stream entry is good enough > >for me". > >The most simple solution is that a stream-enterer in one of his/her > >seven (or less) lives per se will do jhanic concentration, 'caused' > >by conditions; but I don't know if there are texts about this. > > > > To my knowledge, there is no mention of anything like this in the texts. > > Given the significance of 'stream-entry', it seems to me that either the > attainment of mundane jhana is a necessary prerequisite for all levels > of attainment, or it is a necessary prerequisite for none. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, I may need update of new members and all old members as I have been busy and cannot access to internet. Is it Joop or Loop? If Loop who is he or she? With respect, Htoo Naing 51786 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:29pm Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment (was, incredible india) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > >> Dear Jon, > > I may need update of new members and all old members as I have been > busy and cannot access to internet. Is it Joop or Loop? If Loop who > is he or she? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > Dear Htoo Naing It's Joop (male, from the netherlanmds) and I'm not totally new I should like it if you can give information about this topic (and forget my opinions about it) Metta Joop 51787 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I have no problem agreeing with most of what you said, except a little bit of the following. >Jon: > > Also, does your phrase 'in every passing moment' qualify 'awareness' or 'phenomena'? If the latter, OK, but if the former then I would say that > awareness of every moment is not possible (and is not the aim). > > Happy to fiend we are in substantial agreement ;-)) > Tep: It qualifies the four foundations (or phenomena concerning rupa, vedana, citta, and dhammarammana). {:->) Regards, Tep ===== 51788 From: "seisen_au" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:25pm Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment seisen_au Hi Jon and All, Would you say lokuttarajjhana is a requisite for enlightenment? Steve Ps. Welcome back. Jon wrote: > Given the significance of 'stream-entry', it seems to me that either the > attainment of mundane jhana is a necessary prerequisite for all levels > of attainment, or it is a necessary prerequisite for none. > > Jon > 51789 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon and all - > Jon: > Yes, I've read their posts. As you will have noticed, there are some > differences between my reply and theirs. No doubt we'll get around to > discussing those differences at some stage. No hurry, though ;-)) > Tep: I believe we do not need any further discussion between us, since the other posts have already explained those "differences" to you in more detail and better than I possibly can. Matheesha, Swee and Hal are better explainers than I. ^_* So, from now I will no longer be actively participating in any discussion, except those pertaining to the Breathing Treatise thread. Regards, Tep ====== 51790 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:34pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise: para 316 - 341. Ground vi. buddhistmedi... Hi, all - This post presents Ground vi in Tetrad II. (vi) 316. How is it that (11) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with pleasure', (12) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with pleasure'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation] 317. 'Pleasure' : there are two kinds of pleasure: bodily pleasure and mental pleasure. What is bodily pleasure? any bodily well-being, bodily pleasure, well-being and pleasure felt as born as body contact, welcome pleasant feeling born of body contact, is bodily pleasure. [See Dhs para 3] What is mental pleasure? any mental well-being, mental pleasure, well-being and pleasure felt as born as mental contact, welcome pleasant feeling born of mental contact,is mental pleasure. 318. How is he acquainted with that pleasure? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in- breaths, ...through long out-breaths, ... through short in-breaths, ... through short out-breaths, ... through in-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... through in-breaths tranquilizing the body formation, ... through out-breaths tranquilizing the body formation, ... through in-breaths while acquainted with happiness, ... through out-breaths while acquainted with happiness, his mindfulness is established. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with that pleasure. 319. When he adverts, he is acquainted with that pleasure. When he knows, ... [and so on as in para 242 up to] ... when he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with that pleasure. This is how he is acquainted with that pleasure. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 320. Through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with pleasure there is feeling. The establishment is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The feeling is the establishment, but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that feeling. Hence 'Development of the foundation of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of feelings as feelings' is said. 321. He contemplates: ... [repeat para 197]. 322. Development: ... [repeat apra 198]. [Training] 323 -4. In-breaths and out-breaths while acqauainted with pleasure are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; ...[repeat the rest of para 246 -7 up to the end]. [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 325 -8. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with pleasure, his feelings are recognized as they arise, ... [and so on as in para 199 -202 up to the end]. [Combining the Faculties, Etc.] 329 -41. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with pleasure, he combines the faculties, understands their domains, and penetrates their meaning of sameness; he combines the powers, ... [and so on as in para 203 -15 up to the end]. Tep's Note: This is the end of Ground vi in Tetrad II. Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > This week we will complete the ground v, which consists of the > following sections: > "The Foundation of Mindfulness", "Training", "Exercise of Mindfulness > and Full-awareness", and "Combining the Faculties, Etc." > > [The Foundation of Mindfulness] > > 294. Through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with 51791 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not mixing-up nama and rupa lbidd2 Jon: "Can you explain further where this idea comes from, and what exactly your query is?" Hi Jon, I asked the questions to point out that what we usually take for rupa is actually nama, specifically 5-door consciousness. Larry 51792 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions of the Buddha lbidd2 Hi Djimpa, Here is the sutta you are talking about: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-072-tb0.html Two things are going on here. First, regarding speculative views (here translated as 'a position'): "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata, with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit, is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released." Larry: Second, when one is thus liberated, the tetralemma on reappearance after death does not apply because: "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form [feeling, perception, mental fabrication, consciousness] by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form [feeling, perception, formations, consciousness], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." L: In other words does not apply because, in my view, reappearance, not reappearance, etc., applies only to one identified with the khandhas, rather than not applying because it is a speculative view. Being identified with the khandhas is a view ("position"), and views reappear. Is there a difference here between this and Nagarjuna? Larry 51793 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions of the Buddha christine_fo... Hello Djimpa, Larry, all, I hope this link may also be of use to you, and a basis for further discussion - The Ten Questions that the Buddha did not take a position on: The Avyakata Sa.myutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn44-000.html According to Bhikkhu Bodhi in his Introduction to the Abyaakatasa.myutta: The suttas in this Sa.myutta all respond to the question why the Buddha has not adopted any of the metaphysical tenets advocated and hotly debated by his contemporaries. Of particular concern is the problem whether the Tathaagata exists after death. The first sutta features a discussion on this topic between King Pasenadi of Kosala and the bhikkhuni Khemaa, the nun foremost in wisdom, whose profound reply to the king is later affirmed by the Master (44:1). The suttas in this chapter are enough to dispose of the common assumption that the Buddha refrained from adopting any of these metaphysical standpoints merely on pragmatic grounds i.e. because they are irrelevant to the quest for deliverance from suffering. The answers given to the queries show that the metaphysical tenets are rejected primarily because, at the fundamental level, they all rest upon the implicit assumption of a self, an assumption which in turn springs from ignorance about the real nature of the five aggregates and the six sense bases. For one who has fathomed the real nature of these phenomena, all these speculative views turn out to be untenable." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Djimpa, > > Here is the sutta you are talking about: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-072-tb0.html > 51794 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:14pm Subject: Reasons for leaving DSG philofillet Dear Sarah and John and Nina and all I suppose I should be doing this off-list, but forgive me for explaining my reasons on-list. I know I've said this before, and I know now as I did then that it reflects my own lack of equanimity and patience, but I find that because of an adversarial energy that rules at DSG (not only when people are away at India) discussion here is too consistently a distraction instead of an aid to developing understanding. I have used the dojo yaburi simile before, but I still think it applies. There are so many Yahoo groups! If people don't like A. Sujin's teaching, and see it as wrong, why stay at DSG? Yes, they will say, it is because of the high level of discourse here, unparalled on the 'net. And I do appreciate it. One would look far and wide in vain to find someone with the understanding of Nina, for example, spending so much time to help others. The problem is, however, the adversarial energy - even when it is obviously without malicious intention and reflects the keen interest of the people involved - creates a kind of disturbance on the surface of the pond that prevents understanding from sinking in. For example, there are 5 or 6 points that keep coming up when I listen to A. Sujin's talks that I disagree with. She is wrong at times. Now, I would like to discuss some of these points I disagree with, but I'll be damned if I am going to be drawn into the camp mentality. I can just imagine the congratulatory e-mail from some members who are always judging posts. "I have never seen such wisdom from you, Phil. Congratulations! You are beginning to understand." I don't want to be categorized as a "hard core DSG member" or an "A. Sujin follower" or "a former A. Sujin follower" or an "A Sujin follwer that is showing signs of waking up!" It is not about A. Sujin, it is about Dhamma, but it will *always* be about A. Sujin here. People go cruising around the internet, belonging to this group and that (one thing I admire about James is that, as far as I know, this is the only Yahoo group he belongs to. This reflects a certain sincerity of purpose on his part, in my opinion.) DSG represents a wonderful opportunity for these internet ascetics, because there is something distinctive about it as the only Yahoo group (as far as I know - I am probably wrong) firmly rooted in Abhidhamma, and yes, there is controversial point about meditation. So as they go from this group to that, there is always DSG for the spice of adversarial threads. If a post by Phil appears, a light goes on in the mind. He is a hard core DSG member! And the post is read with a mind hungering to find something to disagree with. This is what goes on. And on the other hand, I read the posts of the people who use the terms "hard core DSG members" or with the same adversarial mind hungering to find something to disagree with. So instead of understanding being developed, it becomes Phil's understanding that can be used as an impressive Wisdom Weapon in a discussion thread. This dynamic is inevitable on the internet, I'm sure, but I really wonder if it is helpful for nurturing nascent understanding. Jon and Sarah and Rob K and Nina and others all had long years of annual meetings, perhaps, and exchanged letters by snail mail (Rob K speaks with such fondness for the letters he received from Nina over the years) and there was time and space for reflection between the letters and meeting, for nascent understanding to get its roots down. But in the internet age, there is no time. What it comes down to is that I need that time and space, I guess. Well, I sense that understanding needs it. I do think that in the ideal world, there would be DSG as a kind of outpost for people of different approaches to share ideas, and some other more strictly defined branch of DSG for people who have listened to A. Sujin's talks or who are deeply interested in Abhidhamma to discuss without constantly being distracted by people who even before they read a post are motivated by a desire to disprove A. Sujin. (Again, I know that this desire is not malicious or necessarily unwholesome - there could be wholesome chanda at work.) Yes, the world is not like that, and trying to control conditions for the arising of understanding is not wise. I understand that. But I also sense there is a traditional dynamic of people of limited understanding listening to people of greater understanding, and perhaps gently and respectfully questioning it, and discussing it, so that the understanding is nurtured, and that dynamic simply is impossible at DSG as presently defined. The still waters that are needed for understanding to be developed are always whipped up by the winds of opinion blowing across the surface of the pond. As I said above, there are definitely things that A. Sujin says that I disagree with and I would like to discuss them, but the camp mentality that prevails at DSG makes that very unpalatable. (Again, that is because of my lack of equanimity and patience, I understand that.) Jon and Sarah and Nina, you've been so kind and supportive, sending me talks, and books when you know I am in tight financial strains. I feel ungrateful to be leaving the group in this way. But you can be assured that I will be continuing to develop understanding (well, will be reading suttas and studying Abhidhamma and listening to A. Sujin talks) so I will still be around. And if I ever develop more equanimity and patience (but how will I know until it is tested?) and if I ever have more time (in very short supply now) I will be back. If there are questions that come up that are really nagging I will send them to you off-list. (Usually I find it best to allow questions that arise to fall away again without trying hard to figure out the answer. If it comes up again, and again, then it is a question that should be answered.) Sincere best wishes to you all on the path. Phil 51795 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:17pm Subject: In love with an Alien Painted Puppet ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Christine Forsyth who wrote: >These photographs are possibly best suitable for >the Nine Charnel Ground Contemplations >(vs. 6-14 of MN 10). Exactly! Well spoken friend ... (again!) If in love with the form of a painted puppet, one becomes a painted puppet again & again! Painted puppet decays, dies & disintegrates! Painful... Unfree... and Not Peace... is that !!! This body should be seen as it really is: A sac of excrement, urine, slime, and pus distended by bones and covered by skin! Not I, not me, not mine, not self, remote! Alien & disgusting... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 51796 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:00pm Subject: Obstructing Corruptions ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Urge for Sensing Objects blocks the Way to Nibbana: At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, desire and lust for the ability* to see forms is an obstructing corruption of the mind...!!! Desire and lust for the ability to hear sounds; Desire and lust for the ability to smell smells; Desire and lust for the ability to taste flavours are also obstructing corruptions of the mind...!!! Bhikkhus, the desire and lust for the ability to speculation on mental objects is also an obstructing corruption of the mind...!!! When a bhikkhu has overcome and left all behind this obstructing mental corruption, his mind inclines towards inward withdrawal... A mind thus prepared by withdrawal becomes fit & open for to those higher mental states, that are to be realized by direct knowledge... Note*: This can & should be freely exchanged, expanded & enhanced by: Visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile & mental Consciousnesses; Visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile & mental Contacts; Feelings born of visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile & mental contacts; Visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile and mental Perceptions; Intention & Craving for visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile & mental objects, contacts, perceptions, and feelings ... !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN 27(1+2) III 232 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 51797 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fouteen undecided questions of the Buddha mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... If you have a candle of light..... and you blew it off.... Some would ask the question "Where has the light gone to ??" Basically that question become void or invalid ?? So those are the questions which were asked to the Buddha.... thus the Buddha did not respond to them... The Buddha is someone very special. We all know that it is not necessary to answer directly to the question. And there are other way to answer a person.... So for this case, all those question basically do have an answer. Sometimes we just don't have to answer anyone who don't understand. Did anyone know what is a "Rambutan" fruits...?? It would be very difficult to explain how good the fruits is if you have not seen or heard of it before.... But just for discussion sake (as I believe the members of this group is all very verse in Abhidhamma), the answer to those all those questions can be easily found if one understand Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma says Ultimate Truth consist of Cittas, Cetasikas, Rupa and Nibbana....there is nothing else beside those... not even a person which we call "I", "you", "me", etc... Everything that has a beginning has an end.... if there is no beginning, there is no end... the problem is how to tell lay people that they don't actually exist and that nothing actually exist except those Nama/Rupa and Nibbana.... Thus the answer to the question as above.... So how to you explain a Rambutan Fruits to people who never seen or heard a rambutan fruits... worst still if people don't believe that such a red hairly fruits actually exist and it is sweet.... So I suggest you to look for the answer in Abhidhamma..... metta mr39515 --- "D." wrote: > Hi Friends of the Buddha-Dharma > > Let me shortly introduce myself, name is Djimpa, > this is my first > post in your study-forum, since a couple of time i > use to read (from > time to time) silently the content and post of this > list. > My purpose is not on a regulare basis to engage into > your debates, but > i hope i can clarify from time to time different > points of interest > and objects of questions of my self-study. > Here is the first: > > I came across a statement, found in a book, > The Pali canon contains several references to the > fourteen undecided > questions that follow the structure of the > tetralemma. The Buddha > refused to agree to any of these questions when they > were put to him > by the mendicant Vacchagotta. For example: > > Gotama denies that...the Thatagatha passes to > another existence after > death here...does not pass to another existence > after his death, and > that the Tathagatha neither passes nor not pass to > another existence > after his death here. <...> 51798 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: Reasons for leaving DSG buddhatrue Hi Phil, I can't help but feel responsible for your decision to leave DSG, due to my last bombastic post about KS. It was a bit over the top. But I want gently question some of your reasons for your decision. Phil: If people don't like A. Sujin's teaching, and see it as wrong, why stay at DSG? James: This is a dhamma study group, not a A. Sujin study group. Not everyone agrees with A. Sujin's positions, especially in regards to meditation, but everyone here does take refuge in the Triple Gem. I could see how it would be silly for a Muslim, for example, to be in this group and post against the truth of the Triple Gem. But I don't do that. I am a Buddhist and this is a Buddhist group so I belong here just as much as you and other Buddhists. Phil: The problem is, however, the adversarial energy - even when it is obviously without malicious intention and reflects the keen interest of the people involved - creates a kind of disturbance on the surface of the pond that prevents understanding from sinking in. James: The Buddha's monks had disagreements with each other all the time in regards to the dhamma; they sometimes had disagreements with the Buddha; and they would have disagreements with the followers of other sects/beliefs. The Buddha gave his monks advice on how to handle such disagreements, I couldn't find the sutta right now, but it wasn't of the nature "Avoid all disagreements about dhamma. Only associate with those who agree with you. Wrap yourself up in an artificial cocoon of peace and tranquility." That doesn't allow understanding to "sink in" in my opinion. Understanding comes from within you, not from outside sources. I have often considered leaving DSG because of the psychic vibes I get from members. I know if my posts have gained approval or disapproval just from the feelings I receive. That can really be stressful. But, I keep coming back for more so there must be something I need to learn here. Learn how to have equanimity in the face of challenge. Phil: For example, there are 5 or 6 points that keep coming up when I listen to A. Sujin's talks that I disagree with. She is wrong at times. Now, I would like to discuss some of these points I disagree with, but I'll be damned if I am going to be drawn into the camp mentality. James: You shouldn't have to bring up these points, unless you really wanted to. Again, this is not an A. Sujin group, this is a Buddhist group with a special interest in the Abhidhamma. Really, if you have some questions about 5 or 6 points that A. Sujin makes you should ask A. Sujin about them. Maybe you can write her a letter? Phil: one thing I admire about James is that, as far as I know, this is the only Yahoo group he belongs to. This reflects a certain sincerity of purpose on his part, in my opinion. James: Thank you. I belong to other Yahoo groups but I don't post to them and I don't read the posts. I joined because I got a personal invitation and it seemed the polite thing to do. Phil: If a post by Phil appears, a light goes on in the mind. He is a hard core DSG member! And the post is read with a mind hungering to find something to disagree with. This is what goes on. James: I completely disagree!! This is not what goes on. If this was happening in this group then I wouldn't belong. You are assuming too much. Let me assure you, as a psychic who can sometimes discern people's motivations for writing posts, this is not the main motivation! Phil: What it comes down to is that I need that time and space, I guess. Well, I sense that understanding needs it. James: That's cool. (Just don't take too much time or give yourself too much space! ;-)) Phil: The still waters that are needed for understanding to be developed are always whipped up by the winds of opinion blowing across the surface of the pond. James: Again, this is a nice metaphor but it isn't correct. In the Panna Sutta the Buddha describes what is required for understanding (panna) to arise and he says nothing about "still waters" or a constantly calm and peaceful environment. You should sit in meditation, focusing on the breath, to develop your calm and tranquility, and then you should go out into the world to test it. Metta, James ps. I am also going to send this to your e-mail in case you have unsubscribed. 51799 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:31am Subject: Meditation Question buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, I don't know if this is an appropriate question for this group, since it is a personal problem, but I don't really post to any other groups so I have to ask it here. ;-)) When I am sitting in meditation, with my eyes closed, focusing on the breath entering and exiting the nostrils, after about 20 minutes or so my body experiences very strange sensations. First it feels like I am leaning, then, if I don't open my eyes, my body begins to feel like it is assuming all kinds of strange postures- even warping in shape. When I open my eyes a crack I see that my body hasn't moved at all. If I keep my eyes slightly open during the meditation this doesn't occur but I am not able to have as keen concentration on the sensation of the nostrils, because my attention will go to seeing and feeling and seeing, etc. I just wanted to know if you experience this? If so, how did you overcome it? Did it go away after time? I have been meditating, on and off, for many years and I have always had this occur. I thought it was time I asked someone else about it. Thanks for any input you could offer. Metta, James