52400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 306 Aversion-dosa (o) nilovg Hi Phil, op 13-11-2005 12:03 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> i Is the suppression of unpleasant feeling always done with >> kusala citta? > > Is "supression" technically specific? I mean, I know I replace > unpleasant object with pleasant ones for the sake of getting rid of > dosa, and that is not kusala. For example, when I wake during the > night and get "the fear" I often reach for a Dhamma book. That is > akusala. > > Is that "supression", or something else? ------ N: I am thinking more of subduing by samatha. Akusala cittas with wrong view or wrong practice may arise, that is not the right kind. ------- Ph: ii What are the proximate causes for dosa? > > I guess unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) to an unpleasant > object is one. And the unpleasant object itself? ------- The Co gives: grounds for vexation, like: He has done me harm, etc. --------- Ph: iii When there are unpleasant "worldly conditions we are >> likely to have dosa. How can right understanding of kamma >> and vipåka help us to have kusala citta instead of dosa? > Intellectually I often think that the unpleasant worldly > conditions are vipaka, so have a certain slight detachment from > them, but I wouldn't say that is kusala. There is so much lobha > involved in wanting out of dosa. But understanding at a deeper level > would condition yoniso manasikara and there would be kusala instead > of dosa? ------- N: yes, the pleasant wordly conditions change all the time, they are impermanent. Vipaka is the result of deeds that have been done already, it is unavoidable, and if we have aversion about akusala vipaaka we accumulate more akusala. >------- Ph: iv Why is there no dosa in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the >> arúpa-brahma planes? > > Because people in those planes don't have to commute and don't > have obnoxious customers or noisy neighbours. -------- N: Birth in these planes is the result of rupa-jhaana and arupa-jhaana and as you know, those who cultivate jhana see the danger of clinging to sense pleasures. Clinging to sense pleasures conditions dosa. When we do not get what we like dosa is likely to arise. While in those planes there are no conditions for clinging to sense pleasures, nor for dosa. Lobha arises but that is not for sense pleasures. -------- Ph: v Why can dosa not be eradicated without developing right >> understanding of nåma and rúpa? Why can it not be >> eradicated by just developing loving kindness? > > Because then it will be "my loving kindness" - anatta cannot be > directly understood until we know nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Not > as easy as it sounds. I look forward to hearing more and more about > this. ------- N: When lovingkindness is being developed there is no dosa at the same time, but lovingkindness does not last. Then dosa arises again. Only paññaa can eradicate dosa at the third stage of enlightenment. First wrong view of self is to be eradicated at the first stage of enlightenment. At the first stage of insight the wrong view of self is not eradicated, insight has to be developed on and on. Wrong view is deeply rooted. It takes long, we have to face facts. --------- Ph: vi When we suffer from sickness and when we are about to die >> what is the most beneficial thing that can be done in order >> not to be overcome by dosa? What should be done if dosa >> arises in such circumstances? > > Wow. I have thought that dosa would be inevitable in that > situation, but we can understand the dosa as conditioned dhamma, and > have some detachment from it. Satisampajanna can arise, know the > akusala with right understanding, thereby giving rise to kusala. > But "what should be done" sounds so intentional - we cannot > say "there should be satisampajanna" - as though there were a ritual > to be done, in the way that I have read that some people have > someone by their bedside, reading to them their good deeds, or > something like that. I think turning to such rituals is natural, but > a person of true understanding might do without. I don't know. -------- N: The answer is: being mindful of dosa, but as you say, it cannot be forced. It is a custom in Buddhist countries to remind dying people of their good deeds to help them. Some people put robes in their hands to be offered to the monks. This is done in Thailand. It can help them, but it is kamma that conditions the last javanacittas to be kusala or akusala. What I also heard was that when you study Dhamma, consider it, do the best you can, you are a kaliyana putthujana (beautiful worldling) and you do not have to fear an unhappy rebirth. *** Nina. 52401 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Jon, Our views do markedly differ, including which view causes diservice! Yesterday I entered jhana. 'He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure.' ..and that is what I did. I dont say this in boast. I say this because there is only one way to achieve this. I'm not a monk, but a lay person, and I know many lay people who have done this. Here's that sutta I mentioned. It is also known as Dighajanu sutta - maybe you already know it: http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-054a.html good luck to you, metta Matheesha 52402 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:08am Subject: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Greetings, This is my first message to the group. My name is sebastien, and am very interested in Buddhism, especially in Theravada. I do some translations from english to french using the suttas listed on Accesstoinsight. Right now I started a translation of the Brahmajala Sutta based on a version found here : http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/brahmajala_sutta.htm I would like to know if there were some people speaking french (or having an alternate english version) here as I have a light doubt about one paragraph concluding the first 4 wrong views ? Here is the english version : "There are, monks, other matters, profound, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond mere thought, subtle, to be experienced by the wise, which the Tathágata, having realized them by his own super-knowledge, proclaims, and about which those who would truthfully praise the Tathágata would rightly speak. And what are these matters?" And here is my translation : "Il y a ainsi ô moines, des dhammas profonds, difficiles à voir et à comprendre, tranquilles, nobles, au delà de la pensée discursive, subtils, et experimentés seulement par les sages. Le Tathágata, ayant par lui-même réalisé ces dhammas, possédant la sagesse transcendante, les a exposés. Que ceux qui désirent véritablement honorer le Tathágata en parlent sans déformer son enseignement." Thanks, Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52403 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 11/13/05 4:26:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Yesterday I entered jhana. 'He permeates &pervades, suffuses & > fills this very body with the rapture &pleasure born of composure. > There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture &pleasure > born of composure.' ..and that is what I did. I dont say this in > boast. I say this because there is only one way to achieve this. I'm > not a monk, but a lay person, and I know many lay people who have > done this. > ========================= This is excellent, Matheesha, and very good that you let it be known that jhana attainment is possible for lay practitioners. Matheesha, I would appreciate something: Please note that this is *not* to test your attainment in the slightest, but only to gain useful information from you. You said that you entered jhana, and you then quoted the material about suffusing the entire body with rapture and pleasure. Now, that occurrence of extremely pleasant sensation permeating the entire body after a certain point in a sitting happens for me in pretty much every sitting I engage in, that along with a great, peaceful calm. But for one to have entered jhana, there is, of course, more to the experience than that. Now, we know the stock descriptions of what else is involved, and at times I have experienced considerably more than just this calm and pleasure, but I would find it very helpful, and I suspect others would also, to hear from you exactly, to the extent you can describe it, what you experienced. Also, especially helpful, I think, would be any tips you could give of what to avoid and what to encourage to enter and abide in a jhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52404 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - I think the message below was intended for Howard, not Tep ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > beautiful, so true. > Howard: > Putting into practice what has been studied, taught, repeated, and > contemplated; i.e., patapatti based on pariyatti. > Follows the sutta, very good. > There are roots of trees and empty houses. Develop > concentration do not be negligent and later regret. This is our advice. > __________________________ > > H: So, in *this* sutta, 'living according to the teaching" is more > restrictive than I guessed. It amounts to wisely thinking about the > teaching! (That will be pleasing to many on DSG!!) > ------- > N: Not merely thinking about the dhamma, but developing understanding of > what appears now and awareness of it. > ------------ (snipped) ...................... Regards, Tep ========== 52405 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation philofillet Hi Sebastien Welcome to the group. I can read French a bit (come from the Anglo side of Montreal) so I'm interested in your project. The only thing that caught my eye was > the Tathágata, having realized > them by his own super-knowledge, becoming . Le Tathágata, > ayant par lui-même réalis?Eces dhammas, possédant la sagesse transcendante, Minor point, but I thought that in your version it is not quite as clear that he realized the dhammas BY the "super-knowledge". It sounds like his possessing the "sagesse transcedante" might be a separate matter, because of the comma. Could words such as "grace a la sagesse transendante" be used? Is "grace a" proper French? Maybe "grace a" has too many Catholic connotations! BTW, everyone, this "super-knowledge" which Sebastien has translated as "transcendental wisdom" - what is the Pali? I've never come across Bhikkhu Bodhi using "super" as a prefix in his translations. Is there any reason it's "knowledge" rather than "wisdom?" Phil 52406 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation / AN VIII.54 buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - It is interesting that you talked about your own jhana experience in more detail than before. > Math: > Yesterday I entered jhana. 'He permeates & pervades, suffuses & > fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. > There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure > born of composure.' ..and that is what I did. I dont say this in > boast. I say this because there is only one way to achieve this. I'm > not a monk, but a lay person, and I know many lay people who have > done this. > Tep: You have opened a Pandora box, and you did it with courage. I admire your courage and sincerity. Then you gave a link to AN VIII.54, saying : >Math: > Here's that sutta I mentioned. It is also known as Dighajanu sutta - > maybe you already know it: > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt > ara/an08-054a.html > Tep : I have read the sutta. I also wonder what your intention was for referencing this sutta. Maybe I have missed something important, but I do not find it to be relevant to your jhana experience. Regards, Tep ======= 52407 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) philofillet Thanks Nina Indeed, ignorance starts off the cycle of D.O. But I thought I read somewhere that it might be a mistake to interpret D.O as starting from ignorance instead of seeing it as a loop in which ignorance is one key factor? Something like that? But I agree that ignorance is at the root of all our problems. And we do know that there is ignorance (moha) with every unwholesome (askuala) citta. Phil p.s thanks also for your feedback in the dosa quiz. 52408 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation philofillet Hi Matheesha > Yesterday I entered jhana. Congratulations! It made me happy to read this, though I do not seek jhanas. Phil 52409 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation lbidd2 Hi Sebastien and Phil, Here is B. Bodhi's translation: There are, bhikkhus, other dhammas, deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathagata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathagata in accordance with reality would speak. And what are those dhammas? Larry: I think the word that is translated as "super-knowledge" by Walshe and "direct knowledge" by B. Bodhi (following B. ~Nanamoli) is abhi~n~na http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:1672./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ The root "j~na" can be any kind of knowing, not necessarily wisdom. "Abhi" is the same as in "abhidhamma" and is sometimes translated as "higher". It is "difficult to understand" no matter how you translate it. Larry 52410 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:37pm Subject: vism ch 17 velthuis file nichiconn Hi, Larry and All, I uploaded vism ch 17 into the same directory of the group's files section that Jim's previous files are in. Sorry, no numbering! peace, connie 52411 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tech. question + SURVEY+Discussions in Bangkok in Feb lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Nina, and one luck volunteer, I tried numbering the paragraphs today and it was mostly easy going. I got about half way through. However, there was a dozen or more places where the English paragraphing didn't correspond with the Pali, so I had to guess where to break them. One place I couldn't figure out at all. I think what I have will probably work for me, but if you want a numbered file for the "Files" section (and if there's room), maybe someone who has at least a little understanding of Pali should do it. It's a few hours work (2-3), at the most. Volunteers? What we are looking for is a numbering of the Pali paragraphs of ch. 17 according to ~Nanamoli's trans. Thanks for the info on "Survey...". Can I expect to see this in my local bookstore any time soon? Nina's ADL made it. I'd like to donate a copy to a couple of libraries here. Larry 52412 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:47pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 309 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [c] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] The proximate cause of envy is someone else’s prosperity. When there is jealousy one cannot stand it that others receive pleasant objects. At that moment there cannot be “sympathetic joy” (muditå). We may be jealous when someone else receives a gift, when he receives honour or praise because of his good qualities or his wisdom. When there is jealousy we do not want someone else to be happy and we may even wish that he will lose the pleasant objects or the good qualities he possesses. Envy is dangerous. When it is strong it can motivate akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) and this is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. One may, because of jealousy, even kill someone else. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52413 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:53pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - This post only responds to the first half of your message. The second half will be discussed in another post. >N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta's supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paññaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paññaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. > So it has to be emphasized: always with right understanding. The Buddha had great compassion and considered people's different accumulations, he knew what was right for this or that person. Tep: Of course, it is hopelessly stupid for anyone to follow the suttas word by word without first exercising a good common sense of an educated person plus a good knowledge of the Buddha's Dhamma ! Besides, why would we ever want to imitate the "Bodhisatta's supreme effort" without first considering who we are? The sutta message that rings the bell very clearly to me is that even with no lobha (that makes you try hard or hope for results) and even if you are equipped with the no-self attitude, achieving the high level of "right understanding" (parinna) without a supreme effort (the four right exertions and viriya-bala) and right mindfulness is day-dreaming. Why? Because the vipassana pa~n~naa that results from "purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path" has its supports and conditions. According to the Patisambhidamagga (also, see Vism. XX, 2 ): 'understanding that is direct knowledge is knowledge in the sense of being known. Understanding that is full understanding is knowledge in the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving up' [Ps.i,87]. To attain the third level of "knowledge in the sense of giving up" one needs the seven anupassana. 'Contemplating as impermanence, a man abandons the perception of permanence. Contemplating as painful, he abandons the perception of pleasure. Contemplating as not self, he abandons the perception of self. Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting. Causing fading away, he abandons greed. Causing cessation, he abandons originating. Relinquishing, he abandons grasping.' [Ps.i, 58] According to Vism. XIV,32 , the full-understanding that is abandoning is supported by 1) understandings of aggregates, bases, elements, etc., 2) purification of virtue, and 3) purification of consciousness. Therefore, that's why I have said that "right understanding" does not comes easy. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Let me first go to the end. About the Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima > Nikaya No. 20 > op 12-11-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > We are in perfect agreement here. So you now see the > > point made earlier that asubha sanna was useful as the first-aid to > > extinguish kamaraga (great lust). What if the lust (and other akusala > > vitakka) refuses to go away, no matter what tool you have used ? The Buddha recommended the most drastic measure as follows: > > > > "If evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion or > > delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth > > clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he > > should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness." [MN 20] That is, when all satipatthana and vipassana fail completely, use the brute-force technique ! > ------- (snipped) 52414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tech. question + SURVEY+Discussions in Bangkok in Feb nilovg Hi Larry, I guess I am the luck volunteer. op 14-11-2005 04:53 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Hi Sarah, Nina, and one luck volunteer, > > I tried numbering the paragraphs today and it was mostly easy going. I > got about half way through. However, there was a dozen or more places > where the English paragraphing didn't correspond with the Pali, so I had > to guess where to break them. -------- N: Don't worry, I see to it that you have them, ten at a time and ahead of time. But I cannot do them all now, no time. What did you do already and what was difficult? We can deal with it off line. Nina. 52415 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah, you wrote "Kiriya (often translated as 'inoperative' > consciousness) never brings a result. It is neither cause nor result. So > in the case of > an arahant, there are kiriya cittas rather than kusala cittas. Of course > good > actions still take place (through body, speech and mind) but they are > 'inoperative' and no results will follow in the way of further vipaka or > becoming of > any kind." I would like to further examine the idea of "no results" > following > in the wake of an arahant's actions. That, I believe, needs to be made > more > specfic. .... S: Tep added more details about the kiriya cittas and we were all in agreement, but you may wish to discuss these further comments of yours a little more" ..... > When the Buddha taught, others heard. When the Buddha ate, his > body > obtained nutrition. When the Buddha stared at a killer elephant > approaching him, > the animal bowed and desisted. The Buddha acted, albeit without any > sense of > actor, without any sense of I or mine, but he acted, and those actions > had > consequences even including current thoughts conditioning subsequent > thoughts > within his mindstream. So results do follow from the actions of an > arahant. ..... S: Yes, I understand what you are saying. There are no conditions for any new kamma to be performed and therefore there will be no further kammic results (vipaka) as a result of any further kamma. There will be the results of old kamma during that life only. However, your point is that the acts of the Buddha, arahants, anyone also have consequences affecting others in many different ways. Without his teaching, we wouldn't be able to discuss the Dhamma. Without his act, the elephant wouldn't have been tamed. What we see, hear and experience through the senses is a result of previous kamma, but many other factors (including the Buddha's teaching, elephants and so on) act as a decisive support. Before we discussed the death of MahaMogallana, the Buddha's disciple, who died as a result of his previous kamma. However, of course, the acts of the murderers and many other factors were also supporting conditions for such a result to occur at such a time. As we know, kamma-vipaka is beyond comprehension in terms of all the intricacies. .... >It > seems to me that it is only certain *types* of result that do not - > namely > conditioning of the arahant's mind for "good" or "ill". The mind of an > arahant is > already pristine, and ever remains so, beyond the possibility of > defilement or > enhancement. Can you add to this (or correct it, if you disagee)? .... S: Here you ae talking about conditioning in the way of accumulating good and ill tendencies. In the case of the arahant, as you say, the mind is 'beyond the possibility of defilement'. However, there wisdom and good qualities can still accumulate further. We read that even arahants continued to listen to the Buddha and develop satipatthana and other wholesome qualities or abilities, but not because this was necessary for any further eradication --the task was done. I know you don't want to write too much, but let me know if you have any disagreements or further comments on this as I know it's an important point for you. Metta, Sarah ======== 52416 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:22am Subject: Rupa without (Was: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? jwromeijn Dear Sukin, all After reading about what's happening to you some days ago I understand that there were some days before you could answer. I must also have been a terrible experience for your wife: driving through the city hoping that you are not yet dead when entering the hospital So many thanks for your answers of yesterday. Perhaps you have seen I started a discussion with Nina about more or less the same theme, with the thread name "Modern Theravada". Sukin: I understand, but if any good is going to happen, then this will be only if panna leads the way. To most modern people especially with scientific background, this idea that what is experienced directly will appeal as against so-called speculation about rebirth and the existence of other realms. However, what is behind such thinking may in fact be a kind of annihilationist view and very much living in the conceptual world without any understanding about ultimate realities. Joop: That's a good discription of me, only it's not "so-called" speculation: there is a gap between what can be expereinced by the five senses and the idea of rebirth. So can it be experienced by the sixth sense? That's nearly speculation; a danger always is the mechanism of 'wisfful thinking': because we want that something is correct we think to experience it's correctness. And you are right with your remark "only if panna leads the way". Sukin: So what at this point to you may be a matter of speculation and hence basis for doubt, for example, rebirth and devas, may be the very thing which needs to be understood correctly before there can be any further progress along the Path. I think people like Bachelor appeal to a certain mind set and come across as being realistic, open minded and down to earth. However as far as I am concerned, I think their doubt will continue to increase. In the back of their minds they seek to overcome doubt by actual "seeing" of devas and "experiencing" rebirth. But such experience does not lead to a decrease of doubt in the dhamma sense. Joop: Wait a minute. It's good that you mention Batchelor ("Buddhism without beliefs") but why introduce the term 'doubt'? You are projecting. If I doubt than it's only about the topic that I don't know exactly how Theravadins with a different cultural backround can discuss the Dhamma. I think the Teachings of the Buddha are a mixture of absolute truth and Indians culture which the Buddha used very skilful to teach the people of his time. And for a westerner like me educated in a culture without (much) magic a mixture of absolute truth with natural science is a more fruitful one; of course only when panna leads the way. It's possible that in some years my thinking has evolved in the direction you suggest but that's not something I try to reach. But is must (in theory) also be possible that in some years your thinking evolves and that you distil the core of the Dhamma from what I call magic thinking? Metta Joop 52417 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two Items sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The first item is a Beliefnet quote, from, I presume, a Japanese > Buddhist: > _______________________ > "If you wish to understand yourself, you must succeed in doing so > in > the midst of all kinds of confusions and upsets. Don't make the mistake > of > sitting dead in the cold ashes of a withered tree. > > -Emyo" > > I take this to mean that meditation that leads to wisdom is not a > mere > absorbed quietism, but a clear attention to whatever arises under all > conditions. .... S: I think it's a good quote. I would say, anytime is the time for the development of satipatthana. If we wait until that special time or special experience, it'll be too late. Thank you for sharing the story about the SUV and I was relieved to hear you both were safe. I'm sure it was quite a shock. I think, like Sukin, that when we talk about 'clear attention' or mindfulness, it's quite different from our usual ideas of 'ongoing attention' as you describe. When it comes to the understanding of absolute realities (dhammas), it is just as likely to arise when getting bumped as when we jump out of the way. The conditions are the prior understanding and awareness of such dhammas, having heard and considered the Buddha's teachings at length. Thus we hear about people who became enlightened whilst burning the food, committing suicide, stepping into the path of a bull and so on. On our recent trip to India, a friend also raised the example of people bumping into things and wondering if this was indicative of a lack of mindfulness. I also told him how our group had nearly started a fire at one of the holy places by leaving candles unattended. Again, as Sukin suggested I think, we never know the others' intentions at such time (clearly, the candles were left with good intentions on the whole) and our stories about such seeming lack of mindfulness is only based on our conventional idea of wise attention. And yes, if you hadn't taken the decisive action you took to save your wife, but had 'waited for conditions', that would have certainly indicated some very dangerous (in this instance) wrong view! I hope you both have no further experiences with SUVs! Metta, Sarah ========= 52418 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Joop), This is the last for now, I promise! --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Joop) - > > In a message dated 11/3/05 1:04:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > > Regarding BB's comment on Nyanaponika's statement about the > impermanence > > of concepts, see #50851. Concepts are 'imagined' or thought about. > They > > don't have characteristics (lakkhana) and cannot be said to be anicca > and > > therefore cannot be said to be dukkha either. We read again and again > > about the impermanence of the khandhas only. > > > ===================== > It seems to me that the problem with this topic lies in language > use. > When we say that we feel warmth, that way of speaking suggests an > actually > arising element of physical experience called "warmth." Likewise, when > we say > that concepts are thought about or imagined, that suggests actually > existing > (mental) things called "concepts". What I think is actually the case is > that > concept talk is mere manner of speaking. There are, in fact, no things > called > "concepts". .... S: Agreed .... >It is not that literally "We imagine concepts," the form of > that > sentence suggesting a relation of imagining between a thing called "we" > and mental > things called "concepts," but rather that a process of thinking or > imagining > projects (or makes-seem-to-appear) things that do not in truth arise at > all, and > we apply the term 'concept' in this context. ... S: Agreed! .... >What actually occurs in > this > context, is a thought-process, and nothing more. ... S: Yes. A process of thinking cittas accompanied by thinking cetasikas 'thinking or imagining projects things that do not in truth arise at all'....That's why, thinking can be known, feeling can be known, perception can be known, but the concepts can never be known. In truth they don't exist at all. Thanks for your good explanation. Metta, Sarah ======== 52419 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: Two Items sukinderpal Hi Howard, Sukin in last post: > > This is a long post and has in fact taken me two days to finish. Please > > don't feel obliged to respond. > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Oh, geez! Why didn't you write that at the *beginning* of your post?? > ;-)) > ----------------------------------- Sukin in this post: Not as long as the last, but this one is still long. ;-) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sukin in last post: > > Yet there can be panna, if not at the level of direct understanding of a > > paramattha dhamma, a level which is either Suttamaya or Cintamaya. I > > think we should not be too eager to "directly experience" i.e. > > bhavanamaya panna, but accept that ours will mostly be at the two > > lower level. It is better to know how much we really understand and > > accept it. It is a great mistake in my opinion, to identify with a > > conventional practice and call that the development of satipatthana > > when in fact it is something else altogether. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nothing that happens is "conventional". The matter of conventional > versus ultimate, or, better, figurative versus literal, is a matter of > description and understanding, and not of what actually occurs. What is, is. What > occurs, occurs. > We can cultivate a mind that is increasing clear and attentive, or > not. As cultivation proceeds, we come to see through the figurative and move > towards the literal. Our understanding grows clearer and more precise. Sukin: OK, it is not about the conventional activity but what happens at the paramattha level. And it is not so much about the use of conventional or ultimate terms. You say, "What is, is. What occurs, occurs." And I agree with the statement. But when you talk about doing certain things which lead to certain results, I question if at the paramattha level, this really happens, here referring to Satipatthana. Or so far you have been imprecise in the use of concepts, such as `cultivate a mind', being `clear' and `attentive'. Actually not so, since you have referred to `cultivation' in part as involving `formal sitting' and/or `directed activity' conditioned by an `intention' to do so. I identify some of this as being wrong view and wrong practice, though you interpret it as being exactly the opposite. And when you talk about the end result as including, being increasingly aware of surroundings, I can't help but perceive a stress on something which should not be stressed. So when you say that there is `clarity' and `attention', I think you are referring to something other than moments of satipatthana in this case. But lets leave this for now, today I am more interested to talk about something else. ;-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sukin in last post: > > But the leader must be "panna", because without it, ignorance > > will control matters, including any "ideas" about intentions to practice > > and be liberated. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Pa~n~na isn't there from the outset. It needs to be cultivated. If one > needs to be already at the goal in order to begin the race, then one will > more profitably sit on the sidelines, or, better yet, stay home, for there will > be no race to run. Sukin in this post: Panna like any other dhamma is conditioned. It must have its cause in the past, or else the Buddha's words will not appear attractive. Surely there will be for us all, more moments of akusala and even wrong view, but these moments will never be the starting points. In fact a moment of wrong view takes us in the wrong direction every time that it arises. So panna *must* be there, or else the path will never be taken. And yes, panna must be developed, or else the goal will never be reached. So no sitting on the sidelines. :-) You have often mentioned about `starting from where we are' and not `from where we want to be'. I am one person who has questioned this position of yours. Allow me to explain why. When you talk about being `where we are', the suggestion seems to be that of a `self' with a collection of qualities all of which influences any given moment of experience. This to me seems to deny the arising of precise dhammas as per set of conditions. A moment of right view for example, requires sets of conditions to arise quite different from and is not in any way influenced by wrong view. If lobha or moha arises immediately after right understanding, it does not in any way influence what has already been conditioned to arise and fallen away. The Right view has done its job just as lobha would be doing its. I'd like to suggest further, that since we ever come to know about dhammas through the teachings of the Buddha, else we would still be having wrong view with no chance of actually knowing our own cittas as being a conditioned reality, that "where we are" should in fact refer to our present understanding of the Teachings. In other words, when I make a statement about my experience, it must refer back to any correct understanding of the Dhamma, and this will be at the level of pariyatti, since this is what we have to communicate in terms of. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Sukin in last post: > > Understanding that there are only conditions behind every thought > > about `doing' or `not doing', can condition seeing the importance of > > knowing this very present dhamma. And this at the same time would be > > both, cetana towards knowing what has arisen and also *not* > > a `waiting for conditions' attitude. Giving panna prime importance is not > > making cetana a second-class citizen. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Giving pa~n~na prime importance is a matter of (correct) belief and > attitude. But all the belief and attitude in the world, all the valuing of > pa~n~na in the world, does not make wisdom arise. The intentional following of the > Buddha's instructions, the practice of Dhamma, is what does it. Sukin in this post: Isn't it plain that without any understanding, panna, any statement we make about what is the correct Teachings and Practice is meaningless? I think you may be referring to a level of panna that is very high and that we start from having no panna at all. But panna has a starting point, which for practical purpose we may put at the level of correct pariyatti. Otherwise, what according to you conditions development of panna? Intention with wrong view? To me pativedha follows from patipatti and this from pariyatti. I see no place for "intentional following of the Buddha's instructions" in this scheme. If you say this is what patipatti is, then you must refer to something else but a *conditioned* dhamma. Enough for now. ;-) Metta, Sukin 52420 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:20am Subject: Sutta, Cinta and Bhavana maya panna sukinderpal Hi Sarah, You wrote: > I'm glad you wrote more on suttamayapanna etc and your other reflections Sukin: I would like to write some more about this topic. Suttamayapanna is a level of understanding which arises upon hearing the Dhamma. It is the initial and necessary level of panna, one without which further investigation along the path could never be conditioned to arise. It acts often as a reminder conditioning either the immediate next level, namely cintamayapanna or depending on the accumulations, even bhavanamayapanna. Cintamayapanna is level of understanding arisen not so much from hearing the words, but from observation, though conceptual, where certain signs and details act as condition for deeper reflection on Dhamma. It is a level of `thinking', but one which involves panna which is growing in the realization that all that is to be known is the present dhamma. So it is not about `contemplating abstractly', but seeing the importance of knowing directly the arisen dhamma. Bhavanamayapanna is Satipatthana. The understanding is now more direct and not conceptual. This however, like any other dhamma, cannot arise by any willing, trying or doing. It is a consequence of much development at the two prior stages, namely, suttamayapanna and cintamayapanna. When words of Dhamma are heard, no matter how precise they are, it is by conditions, primarily from the past, that any level of understanding can arise. In other words, even suttamayapanna is conditioned in part by past accumulated right view; else the words will be the object of wrong view. When in daily life, certain experiences trigger some reflection on what has been understood in theory, this obviously must be the result of panna which is greater than suttamayapanna. And we can see how less probable it is for cintamayapanna to arise as compared to the level when the words are acting directly as condition, as in suttamayapanna. Moreover in our day to day experiences of conventional reality and especially for those who haven't heard the Teachings, the chances of wrong view arising is great. So indeed, cintamayapanna cannot arise without firm suttamayapanna, and this is based on correct pariyatti. Bhavanamayapanna obviously requires a much higher degree of panna. For atta and nicca sanna is what naturally arises whenever we experience anything. And by the time we are reminded about the need to know paramattha dhammas, that dhamma and many more have fallen away completely. So what are we to do? Certainly not trying to be mindful, since after all this trying is an instance of ignorance and wanting at play. It *will* attend to something, but that wouldn't be a paramattha dhamma. However there can be the understanding at the conceptual level of what is going on, if the need to directly experience does not come in the way. And this would be a level of cintamayapanna. I therefore think that if we try so hard to `do' satipatthana, we are in fact going the opposite way. We even reduce the chance for cintamayapanna to arise. Worse still, if we mistake the wrong result for right, then we will also take the wrong path to be the correct one. And attachment to this grows, so much so that we may end up downplaying suttamayapanna. So back to my oft mentioned point about the need for correct pariyatti, which includes understanding correctly what it means by patipatti. :-) This is all that comes to mind at this moment. Metta, Sukin. 52421 From: "Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Hi Phil, > Minor point, but I thought that in your version it is not quite > as clear that he realized the dhammas BY the "super-knowledge". It > sounds like his possessing the "sagesse transcedante" might be a > separate matter, because of the comma. Thanks for pointing this, you are right. This formulation should be more accurate : "Le Tathágata, ayant par la sagesse transcendante lui- même réalisé ces dhammas, les a exposé." Could words such as "grace a > la sagesse transendante" be used? Is "grace a" proper French? > Maybe "grace a" has too many Catholic connotations! "Grace à " means "thanks to" so it could also be used. Though "grace" used alone would suggest a gift from something (God or providence) > BTW, everyone, this "super-knowledge" which Sebastien has > translated as "transcendental wisdom" - what is the Pali? The version of the sutta found here say that the pali term is Sabbannuta nana (Perfect Wisdom) : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/theravada/brahma1.htm#7 Regards, Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52422 From: nina Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:29am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 198 nilovg Text Vis. 198. (iv)-(v) The classification into 'internal' and 'external' should be understood according to the internal in the sense of one's own. ------ N: External feeling is feeling of another person. We read in the ³Book of Analysis²: ------- Text Vis.: (vi)-(vii) The classification into 'gross' and 'subtle' should be understood (a) according to kind, (b) individual essence, (c) person, and (d) the mundane and supramundane, as stated in the Vibha.nga in the way beginning 'Unprofitable feeling is gross, profitable and indeterminate feeling is subtle, [profitable and unprofitable feeling is gross, indeterminate feeling is subtle]' (Vbh. 3), and so on. -------- N: The details of these classifications will be explained in the following sections. As to kind, this is jaati. As we have seen, citta and cetasikas can be of four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka, result, and kiriya (inoperative). Feelings can be classified according to jaati. As to individual essence, sabhaava: this is according to nature or characteristic. As to person, here feelings are distinguished according as they arise in a person with attainments or without attainments. As to mundane and supramundane, feelings can be with cankers and without cankers. ---------- All these classifications will help us to have more understanding of what feeling is. We think of the term feeling, but we should remember that the classifications pertain to feeling arising at this moment. Feeling that arises falls away and is then succeeded by another feeling, but this can never be the same, even if it is the same type of feeling. All that is said here about feeling also pertains to the khandhas of saññaa, sankhaarakkhandha and viññaa.nakkhandha, as is stated at the end of this section. ****** Nina. 52423 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/05 4:24:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > I know you don't want to write too much, but let me know if you have any > disagreements or further comments on this as I know it's an important > point for you. > ======================= The Buddha did volitionally act, and those actions had consequences. In some technical sense, those actions were morally neutral or "functional", and they had no "kammic" consequences. I hypothesized that this means that that the Buddha's volitions, as all else pertaining to an arahant, were uninfected by the three poisons, which no longer arose, and that the consequences were not "kammic". It is the matter of the "non-kammic" nature of the fruit of the functional actions of an arahant that I am asking about. I hypothesized that this amounted to the kiriya kamma leaving no moral (positive or negative) imprint in an arahant's mindstream, but you seem to be saying that that's not it. Then what is it? That remains unclear. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52424 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two Items upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - Your post is a long one for which I have little to say except many repetitions of "I don't agree"! ;-) So, I am leaving your post largely unanswered. (There's little point in repeating what has already been often repeated.) I make just one reply here to a single sentence: In a message dated 11/14/05 5:29:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: > When you talk about being `where we are', the suggestion seems to be > that of a `self' with a collection of qualities all of which influences any > given moment of experience. > > ====================== That may well be what my statement suggests to you, but it carries no such implication for me - none at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52425 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 nilovg H Larry, op 12-11-2005 23:14 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > I see now. I completely misunderstood decisive-support condition. I > thought "a cogent reason" was referring to a moment of reasoning, but > apparently it means something like "efficient cause. ------- N: right. L:Feeling is a > cogent reason (efficient cause) for the arising of desire. ------ N: I think you mean the D.O. referring to feeling conditions craving. Here we have to be careful not to mix the method of the Patthana (the 24 paccayas) with the method of the D.O. Different angles, different perspectives. ------------ L:When kamma > (root consciousness) is a decisive-support condition for vipaka, it > must be natural-decisive-support condition, except in the case of > fruition consciousness. Is that right? ------- N: No. I read U Narada. p. 41: You see how complex and detailed it all is. ------- > L: I can see how insight arises dependent on accumulations but, on the > other hand, it would seem to make sense that the absence of > accumulations would be conducive to seeing things as they are. ---- N: Good and bad tendencies are accumulated in each citta. I cannot think of absence of them. Correct intellectual understanding and wise attention are conducive to seeing things as they are. Nina. 52426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:34am Subject: FW: 10 perfections editing is complete!!! read by Lodewijk. Attention Azita. nilovg ---------- Van: Tom Westheimer Datum: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:14:16 -0500 Aan: Nina van Gorkom , Jonothan Abbott Primary Address Onderwerp: 10 perfections editing is complete!!! http://www.dhammawords.org/perfections/ 52427 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: occurrence of extremely pleasant sensation permeating the entire body after a certain > point in a sitting happens for me in pretty much every sitting I engage in, > that along with a great, peaceful calm. (snip) I would find it very helpful, and I > suspect others would also, to hear from you exactly, to the extent you can > describe it, what you experienced. Also, especially helpful, I think, would be > any tips you could give of what to avoid and what to encourage to enter and > abide in a jhana. M: I'm going to try and do some justice to this matter. Your question reminded me of a sutta: 'Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and not a gainer of internal appeasement of mind should approach that person who is a gainer of internal appeasement of mind and ask him- Friend, how should the mind be settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind brought to a single point be made to concentrate. He would explain it to him, as he had known it and seen it. Friend, the mind should be settled thus, quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to concentrate thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and a gainer of internal appeasement of mind.' http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm As can be noted from above insight is not enough. .[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana. The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351 .html#16 M: The process of achieving jhanas is a fairly 'labour intensive'. A useful place to start would be reading the above. I train people in jhana and the experience is that it takes about 2 - 3, one hour sittings per day of mindfulness of breath of a very focused type to achieve this as a lay person (months), or in much shorter time in a retreat setting (weeks). Another possibility is people who have been doing meditation over many many years may naturally go into jhana during their practice. My lineage teaches mastery of the jhaana. (ie- intense pleasure apart from this is unlikely to be jhana). There has to be fairly good concentration ability, but it doesnt have to be perfect. Especially with time, it becomes easier to go into jhana when you have done it before. But in intense (and initial) retreat practice there should be an undistracted period of concentration about 30-40 minutues, maybe with a few interrupting thoughts. This level of samadhi is ripe to give rise to jhana. With time it takes less and less time to get into a jhaana from the time you sat down. For many people jhana happen naturally ie- they go into jhana without any control over it. They will go deeper and deeper into samadhi and suddenly emerge into a jhana. They will do this initially for a few seconds. Mastery over jhaana means having that control. In our retreat setting we tell meditators who's samadhi is good to make a determination to enter into the first jhaana. What happens next is (sometimes) a 'change' is observed. Often there is feeling of the mind being 'lifted' to a higher level. Or it might be a change in colour of what was being percieved with the eyes closed. Some people sense a rush of colours, or may experince shivering of the body for a second. (some of these phenomena change with time) But this alone isnt enough. Immediately afterwards there has to be a sensation of having enetered a different state of consciousness to the one which was there before. That is, one with much more one-pointedness which is effortless (the mind feels like a 'rock'). Often in deep states of samadhi, awareness is very little. When entering into a jhana there is a sudden increase in awareness -like breaking out from under water into open air. There are still thoughts. But external distractions a limited. It is possible to experience jhana very 'thinly'. One needs to perfect the concentration more to exeprience a text book jhana if this is the case. (see moggallana's jhana training where the buddha instructs him of this, when it happened). I personally experience piti and sukha more when this is done. Some people seem to experience joy and rapture much more than others. It is useful to perfect one jhana before going higher up (as mentioned by the buddha) as it will become very hit or miss otherwise. it is possible to stay in a jhana for the time period which you will like to (internal biological clock being used). Useful to gain control over when you come out of a jhana. These movements in and out of jhaana are practiced by repeatedly making determinations until one has them under control. It is possible to experience jhana factors one by one if you like to do that again by making determinations. Obviously the hinderences should be missing in a properly developed 1st jhana. When piti and sukha are developed everthing one experiences at the time is tinged with these qualities. Hence if you focus on the breath it feels very 'sweet'. If you focus on any part of the body, rapture fills up that area. There must a determined effort to move your mind to focus unlike in the normal mind state where it is easy. I find that when im in the second jhaana i cannot move even a finger, even if i wanted to. But this might be different for different people. The higher in the jhaanas you go, the lesser control you seem to have (possibly because it is poorly developed). There is more and more solid one-pointedness. In the second jhaana discursive thinking shuts down. piti and sukha are probably at their highest here. In arupa jhaanas there is a qualitative difference in the one-pointedness. It seems spread out, rather than inwardly directed. The idea that there are 9 jhaana seems unrealistic. The stepwise progression from one jhana to the next is very interesting as these 'jumps' can be felt. However some people dont feel them very well and there can be confusion for the teacher and the student as to exactly where the student has gone! Some people only feel the steps when coming down from a higher jhana to a lower jhana. When someone comes out of jhana the rapture and samadhi (if it was strong) can carry on into their waking consciousness as well. When samadhi and jhana are well developed defilements arise less during the day time. Craving can be controlled easily. There is even less need for sleep when it is really strong. However the faculties need to be balanced. Otherwise too much samadhi can make a person feel groggy. I'm writing with some reluctance as there maybe people who will take this the wrong way. You used the term attainment, which i dont really agree with or see it as. Jhana are only a tool, but an essential one to develop. Anyone can become a sotapanna atleast on his or her death bed by believing that everything is impermanent (faith-follower). But I think we need to set our sights higher. A person will think this only when they see what IS actually possible (jhanas etc). These things might sound fantastical but anyone who sets out to do this can do it. It takes determination and every one who has that can do it. Lay people can most definitely do it. I've had many friends achieving these states and they are not anything magical. All of them work and practice and have families. Howard, please ask any question/clarifications if you have any. I hope that was useful to you. metta Matheesha 52428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation nilovg Cher Sebastien, bienvenu! Sabbañuta ñaa.na: omniscient knowledge. (sabba: all. ñaa.na: knowledge or wisdom). Omniscience. In French I do not know. Sagesse tout puissante? Nina. op 14-11-2005 02:34 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > BTW, everyone, this "super-knowledge" which Sebastien has > translated as "transcendental wisdom" - what is the Pali? 52429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8 nilovg Dear Li, please would you ask one of the Pali experts on the Pali list? Those sentences are not easy. Tep could explain to you about the meaning of the long breath, he made studies of this subject. I have the Co. to the Patisambidha in Thai, but now I have great lack of time. Nina. op 13-11-2005 14:40 schreef wchangli op wchangli@...: > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as stated > below: > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, aapaanan¡¦ > ti vutta.m. > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa > pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > 52430 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 11/14/05 12:40:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Howard, please ask any question/clarifications if you have any. I > hope that was useful to you. > ======================== I have no questions at the moment. What you wrote is wonderfully useful, and I thank you very much for myself and all others here who recognize the importance of jhanas for your detailed reply! (I'm saving your post, BTW!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52431 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation upasaka_howard Hi again, Matheesha - In a message dated 11/14/05 2:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > ... thank you very much for myself and all others here who recognize the > importance of jhanas for your detailed reply! ==================== Reformulating the foregoing to remove a silly reading: "... thank you very much for your detailed reply, on behalf of myself and all others here who recognize the importance of jhanas!" With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nilovg Hi Phil, op 14-11-2005 02:48 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Indeed, ignorance starts off the cycle of D.O. But I thought I read > somewhere that it might be a mistake to interpret D.O as starting from > ignorance instead of seeing it as a loop in which ignorance is one key > factor? Something like that? ------ It is the first mentioned link, but this is nit meant as being first in time as you know. But ignorance and craving condition rebirth. Craving is mentioned further in the cycle. There is so much to study here. Nina. 52433 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Thank you very much for your insight Nina ! "Sagesse Omnisciente" is perfectly valid in french so I will use this version. Are there people here interested in the whole translation once finished ? I don't know if I can post the whole in one message as the sutta is quite big ? I would appreciate a second lecture. I also would like to say how I appreciate a such discussion group, and I wish a similar one could exist in french :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr >Cher Sebastien, >bienvenu! >Sabbañuta ñaa.na: omniscient knowledge. (sabba: all. ñaa.na: knowledge or >wisdom). Omniscience. In French I do not know. Sagesse tout puissante? 52434 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation philofillet Hi Sebastien I checked out your blog. Excellent. For fun, I will occasionally put a bit of your French translation here, and try translating it back into English. (When I have time during the winter holidays I will read through your translations and see if I have any comments.) Here's a bit of your translation of the Soma Sutta. Ceux qui pensent : "Je suis une femme", "Je suis un homme", Ou bien ceux qui pensent : "Que suis-je ?" C'est à ceux-là que Mara s'adresse." Those who think "I am a woman", "I am a man", or indeed those who wonder "who am I?" - Mara speaks to them. This reminds me of one of my favourite little sutta phrases that I picked up somewhere or other, about mana (conceit) I don't have it here, but it's something like "I am better than him," "he is better than me", "we are the same" - what can be the cause of such thinking other than not seeing things as they truly are?" (rough paraphrase) As long as we are lost in the world of concepts, blind to paramattha dhammas, we are interested in men and women, young and old and so on, and interested in comparing ourselves to others, and even comparing our own mental states, from today to yesterday. But of course for many lives we have accumulated the tendency to do this and it won't stop any do soon. But we can begin to be aware of it and understand it. Also, I recall that there is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that says that we can get caught up in concepts of masculinity and femininity, warns against it. It's quite interesting. Can anyone post the link? Phil 52435 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) philofillet Hi Nina > It is the first mentioned link, but this is nit meant as being first in time > as you know. But ignorance and craving condition rebirth. Craving is > mentioned further in the cycle. > There is so much to study here. Yes, last night I hear A. Sujin, Rob K, Sukin, Mike Niese and others discussing the links in some detail. Quite overwhelming, the paccayas and links of paticca samupaddha (D.O). There is a tendency to oversimplify re the latter, think we "got it" but of course the Buddha said that it is a deep, deep teaching. It is one of those things that I am not pressing to understand now, because I know the understanding can only arise very, very gradually. Last night I was feeling mildly discouraged because I know that everything for me is just thinking, thinking, thinking. There is nothing direct, nothing whatsover. But then I thought that at least I know that it is all thinking, so that is something. And there is also some doubt in the Buddha's teachning these days, suspicion that there can never really be anything more than thinking, some doubt about kamma and rebirth and so on. Some suspicion that Dhamma is just a very refined and beautiful form of intellectual construct. That's OK too. There must be times of doubt. Doubt is just another conditioned nama. Phil 52436 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation / AN VIII.54 matheesha333 Hi Tep, > Tep : I have read the sutta. I also wonder what your intention was for > referencing this sutta. Maybe I have missed something important, but I > do not find it to be relevant to your jhana experience. M: I quoted the sutta because Jon wanted to know about it. It is about the Buddha talking to a lay person what he should develop. He mentions panna, and gives a definition of it...perhaps the minimum for a lay person's practice. I think this is an important sutta because of this. metta Matheesha 52437 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Phil, The opposite of doubt might be faith. For faith to arise in the dhamma, there must be experiencing. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Matheesha > > > Yesterday I entered jhana. > > Congratulations! It made me happy to read this, though I do not seek > jhanas. > > Phil > 52438 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 lbidd2 U Narada: "Path is related to Fruition", natural strong dependence condition is mixed with proximity strong dependence condition. So, natural strong-dependence, which is naturally strong by itself, becomes much stronger when it is assisted by another kind of strong dependence condition mixed with it." Hi Nina, This seems to contradict Vism.: Vism.XVII,84. 84. (c) As to 'natural-decisive-support': the decisive-support is natural, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. Faith, virtue, etc., habitual to, one's own continuity are called natural. Or else, it is a decisive-support by nature, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. The meaning is that it is unmixed with object and proximity. Doesn't this mean that natural-decisive-support condition is unmixed with proximity or object decisive-support? Larry 52439 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana When Mindfulness Stops Working ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and all) - In the earlier discussion you tried to compare the Bodhisutta's "teeth clenching" and other austerites (which indicated the extremely strong determination of the Bodhisatta to become Awakened) with the teeth clenching, etc., in MN 20. But I don't think that was a fair comparison. Clearly, MN 20 was a discourse the Buddha gave to his ordinary monks at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove for relaxing fabricated akusala vitakka ("unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion"). Akusala vitakka is to be eradicated by the second Path factor, samma-sankappo. So it seems that these monks weren't Sotapanna yet, since they still had problems with akusala vitakka. The teeth clenching in MN 20 is the last of the five themes (nimitta); these themes are to be applied step-by-step, starting with simple switching of thoughts (vitakka) from akusala to kusala vitakka. The second step, which is applied only when the first step fails, is to scrutinize the drawbacks of akusala vitakka, and so on. There is no indication in this sutta that these monks aspired to become future Budhhas. :-)) We all can follow these "themes" and we do not aspire to be Buddhas either. ....................... Now I am ready to discuss the second half of your post # 52394. >N: You speak of different tools, the Co speaks about different weapons: N: The citta with the eight attainments in jhaana that is based on vipassana is the higher consciousness, adhicitta. Thus this refers to a bhikkhu who has developed samatha and vipassanaa. > I posted the whole Co before, and if you like I can give you more parts. Tep: I am curious as to how the higher consciousness, adhicitta, are "based on vipassana". So please give me the part that shows how adhicitta comes after vipassana. Thank you for the kind offer. ........................... > > Tep: Then why did both the Buddha and Ven. Ananda > > recommended asubha sanna , and nekkhamma, to bhikkhus > > as an effective tool to extinguish kamaraga? ------- N: Again we have to remember: with vipassana. The bhikkhu who does not develop vipassana is not worthy to be called a recluse, a sutta states. The whole of the Vinaya has to go together with vipassana, never separated from it. If we remember this we understand the meaning of all those rules. Tep: With all due respect, I disagree with you. It is clear in the "Instruction to Vangisa" sutta that the Venerable Ananda also gave the advice to Vangisa Bhikkhu on using vipassana (contemplation of the impermanence of the theme of the beautiful) with a big emphasis on Asubha Sanna for extinguishing kamaraga. Vangisa Bhikkhu apparently had the Dhamma Vinaya and he knew vipassana. Yet, when he was in deep trouble, only Asubha Sanna could extinguish the fire that was burning. 'Asubha sanna' is one part of the effective 'Kayagatasati kammatthana' that Ven. Ananda also mentioned in the verse below. Vangisa's lust invaded his mind. So he addressed Ven. Ananda with this verse: With sensual lust I burn. My mind is on fire. Please, Gotama, from compassion, tell me how to put it out. [Ven. Ananda:] From distorted perception your mind is on fire. Shun the theme of the beautiful accompanied by lust. See mental fabrications as other, as stress, & not-self. Extinguish your great lust. Don't keep burning again & again. Develop the mind -- well-centered & one -- in the foul, through the foul. Have your mindfulness immersed in the body. Be one who pursues disenchantment. Develop the theme-less. Cast out conceit. Then, from breaking through conceit, you will go on your way at peace. .................................. I apologize if the above "arguments" sound too argumentative to you. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Let me first go to the end. About the Vitakka-Santhana Sutta; Majjhima > Nikaya No. 20 (snipped) > ------- > > Tep: Then why did both the Buddha and Ven. Ananda recommended asubha sanna , and nekkhamma, to bhikkhus as an effective tool to extinguish kamaraga? > ------- > N: Again we have to remember: with vipassana. > The bhikkhu who does not develop vipassana is not worthy to be called a recluse, a sutta states. The whole of the Vinaya has to go together with vipassana, never separated from it. If we remember this we understand the meaning of all those rules. > Nina. > 52440 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:17pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Howard, Htoo, Steve, and Swee) - I appreciate the message # 52427 that provides a Web link to an important article written by an exceptional monk who knows what jhana means, Mahathera Henepola Gunaratana. Now I have only two questions for you to consider. 1. Is your own meditative experience with respect to "jhana phenomena" (e.g. nimitta and jhana factors) in good agreement with the author? If not, then please briefly describe the major difference. 2. What is your opinion about the Venerable Buddhaghosa's explanations on jhana as related to the anapanasati kammatthana in Chapter VIII, the Visuddhimagga ? Thank you in advance. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > (snipped) > > .[16] Mastery in adverting is the ability to advert to the jhana > factors one by one after emerging from the jhana, wherever he wants, > whenever he wants, and for as long as he wants. Mastery in attaining > is the ability to enter upon jhana quickly, mastery in resolving the > ability to remain in the jhana for exactly the pre-determined length > of time, mastery in emerging the ability to emerge from jhana quickly > without difficulty, and mastery in reviewing the ability to review > the jhana and its factors with retrospective knowledge immediately > after adverting to them. When the meditator has achieved this > fivefold mastery, then he is ready to strive for the second jhana. > The Jhanas > In Theravada Buddhist Meditation > by > Henepola Gunaratana > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/lib/bps/wheels/wheel35 1 > .html#16 > (snipped) 52441 From: "Alan McAllister" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Goenka and Vedana drampsych I just returned from a 10 day Goenka retreat. I was struck by his interpretation of vedana. It seems to be the core of his teaching and the basis for his technique and his criticism of other vipassana techniques. It seemed very different from what I understood vedana to be. Could someone point me to a discussion or article that specifically addresses this isssue and its implications? Alan McAllister Bancroft, Ontario 52442 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Alan - In a message dated 11/14/05 9:37:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, drampsych@... writes: > I just returned from a 10 day Goenka retreat. I was struck by his > interpretation of vedana. It seems to be the core of his teaching and > the basis for his technique and his criticism of other vipassana > techniques. It seemed very different from what I understood vedana to > be. Could someone point me to a discussion or article that > specifically addresses this isssue and its implications? > > Alan McAllister > Bancroft, Ontario > =========================== I went on exactly one Goenka retreat, and it was one of the most important things I've ever done. It had a great positive impact on my life. That having been said, I believe that Mr. Goenka misuses the word 'vedana'. Vedana is the affective "tasting" of dhammas, feeling them as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. But what Mr. Goenka calls vedana are actually bodily sensations, particular rupas, andthey fall into a different category of phenomena than vedana. I believe that the Goenka body-sweeping technique is a type of mindfulness of the body. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon, > >... >Yesterday I entered jhana. > Hey, I was just trying to discuss the Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta and the meaning you attributed to it! I would like to think we could have a discussion about the teachings without you pulling rank on me ;-)) Seriously, whether you have truly entered jhana or not (and BTW, while I may wonder about the accuracy of that claim, I do not doubt the sincerity with which you make it) does not help when it comes to understanding the teaching on the development of insight. >'He permeates & pervades, suffuses & >fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. >There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure >born of composure.' ..and that is what I did. I dont say this in >boast. I say this because there is only one way to achieve this. I'm >not a monk, but a lay person, and I know many lay people who have >done this. > As I say, I think this is all beside the point to our discussion on directed and undirected development of the mind as described in the sutta. The point I was making is that while the teaching on directed and undirected development is given in general terms, the admonition regarding the roots of trees and the development of samatha and vipassana is given to Ananda personally. So I question the correctness of your original comment that "the Buddha motions towards the roots of trees and empty places even for the 'undirected' 4 foundations of mindfulness". The two sections of the sutta are not directly linked in that manner, in my view. You also said: " The reasons for the directed meditation is simply the mind is scattered and not in a state for pursuing the 4 foundations of mindfulness, hence for it's preparation." My comment on this was that the sutta sets out both 'directed' and 'undirected' development, so I question the idea that the 4 foundations of mindfulness can only be pursued by the 'directed' variety. Any thoughts or comments? >Here's that sutta I mentioned. It is also known as Dighajanu sutta - >maybe you already know it: > >http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt >ara/an08-054a.html > > Thanks for the reference. I'll have a look at it as soon as I have time. Jon 52444 From: "dsgmods" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation dsgmods forwarded message from mods account ======================================= Hi Matheesha, Thank you very much for this excellent post on your experience with Jhanas. I wish to discuss this offline with you. Do you always see the same nimitta when entering 1st Jhana? with metta smallchap --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > H: occurrence of extremely pleasant sensation permeating the entire > body after a certain > > point in a sitting happens for me in pretty much every sitting I > engage in, > > that along with a great, peaceful calm. > (snip) > I would find it very helpful, and I > > suspect others would also, to hear from you exactly, to the extent > you can > > describe it, what you experienced. Also, especially helpful, I > think, would be > > any tips you could give of what to avoid and what to encourage to > enter and > > abide in a jhana. > > M: I'm going to try and do some justice to this matter. Your question > reminded me of a sutta: > > 'Here, bhikkhus, that person who is a gainer of higher wisdom through > reflecting the Teaching and not a gainer of internal appeasement of > mind should approach that person who is a gainer of internal > appeasement of mind and ask him- Friend, how should the mind be > settled, how should it be quieted, how should the mind brought to a > single point be made to concentrate. He would explain it to him, as > he had known it and seen it. Friend, the mind should be settled thus, > quieted thus and brought to a single point should be made to > concentrate thus. In the meantime he will be a gainer of higher > wisdom through reflecting the Teaching and a gainer of internal > appeasement of mind.' > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm > > As can be noted from above insight is not enough. > 52445 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation sarahprocter... Hi Smallchap, It's nice to see you here again after a long break! I think you sent your post to the mods rather than DSG by mistake, so we f/w it to the list. > Hi Matheesha, > > Thank you very much for this excellent post on your experience with > Jhanas. > > I wish to discuss this offline with you. > > Do you always see the same nimitta when entering 1st Jhana? ... S: Whenever possible, it's best if discussions related to any aspects of the Dhamma continue on list....after all, that's what the list is for! We all like to be able to read and sometimes contribute to the threads. Metta, Sarah ======== 52446 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana lbidd2 Hi Allan, I've never been to a Goenka retreat but I have a book by William Hart on his teaching. I think what he means by vedana is bodily feeling. His idea is that vedana is a unique confluence of nama and rupa, and bodily feeling is certainly that. In fact, it seems to me that mental feeling is experienced in the body. It seems that any kind of emotional feeling can be located in the body. I don't really have a sense of a non-bodily feeling. Maybe our jhana practitioners have a different experience. Larry 52447 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, Welcome to DSG and thanks for the interesting points you raised from your translation of the Brahmajala Sutta. In due course, you may like to obtain a copy of B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta and commentaries: 'The All-embracing Net of Views', pub by BPS and maybe available from Pariyatti books too. I also looked at your website and thought that if I ever take up French studies again, that's how I'll do it (reading your translations!). You're doing a good job. --- Sebastien Billard wrote: > Are there people here interested in the whole translation once finished > ? I > don't know if I can post the whole in one message as the sutta is quite > big > ? I would appreciate a second lecture. ... S: I'm sure there are people who may be interested, but please don't post the whole sutta here even in English, let alone French!! It's too long for a message and this is an English discussion group:-). You can give a link to your website when it's finished and of course, ask about words or phrases for translation as you're already doing. It's especially interesting when it leads to further discussion of the terms, like 'omniscient wisdom'. Can you tell us a little more about your background/interest in the Buddha's teachings? I hope you're not affected by all the unrest in France. We do have at least a couple of mostly lurking members here from France. Perhaps you'll encourage them to post more. Look f/w to more of your questions and further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 52448 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:52pm Subject: Re: Goenka and Vedana sarahprocter... Hi Alan Mc*, ...And it's over 30 years since I went on a 10 day Goenka retreat so anything I say is suspect:). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alan McAllister" wrote: > > I just returned from a 10 day Goenka retreat. I was struck by his > interpretation of vedana. It seems to be the core of his teaching and > the basis for his technique and his criticism of other vipassana > techniques. It seemed very different from what I understood vedana to > be. .... S: Yes, the message doesn't seem to have changed. As Howard says, I think he misuses the term 'vedana' (feelings) and this was questioned all those years ago too, not only by students, but also by another teacher well-versed in the texts. This point has come up several times here. I can only quickly put my hands on this old post which may be of relevance: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14186 You may wish to follow the thread at the end of it. There have been other more recent ones which you may come across. (The entire archives has been backed up for easy scrolling and searching at www.dhammastudygroup.org). You could search there for 'Goenka feelings'. For more on vedana, see 'Useful Posts' in the files section and scroll down to 'Feelings' for some messages put aside in the archives. I think your questions/comments show you've been considering the teachings in detail. Please tell us more about your background and interest. Phil and other Canadians (like Rob M, also from Ontario) will be glad to welcome another Canadian too. As for the sweeping technique and so on, imho,I think there may be many beneficial health effects and it's really similar in this regard with some chi/energy circulating techniques and other healing methods. But does it have anything to do with the Buddha's teachings which these other techniques don't in your opinion? I'm looking forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah * We have one or two other Alans, inc. another Alan M if I'm not mistaken. So, hope you don't mind being referred to as Alan Mc by me! ====== 52449 From: "smallchap" Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:38pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation smallchap Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > It's nice to see you here again after a long break! > > I think you sent your post to the mods rather than DSG by mistake, so we > f/w it to the list. smallchap: I actually meant it as an offline email to Matheesha. I don't know how it ended at the moderator's account. > ... > S: Whenever possible, it's best if discussions related to any aspects of > the Dhamma continue on list....after all, that's what the list is for! We > all like to be able to read and sometimes contribute to the threads. smallchap: So be it. smallchap 52450 From: Alan McAllister Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana drampsych Howard, I am glad to have that clarified as what you have stated is more congruent with the understanding that I had of the term. The bigger issue for me is Goenka's view that, because "Buddha was referring to the physical, bodily sensations when he described vedana ... all importance is to be given to the sensations that one feels on the body" and "bodily sensations give us a stronger and more continuous hold on reality, and thus, on the root cause of tanha"(Goenka, 1990). He seems to hold that any mental event is registered as a bodily sensation and that we can get at a deeper level of the mind by focusing on the bodily sensations as opposed to, for instance, making thoughts or emotions objects in meditation as is done in other techniques of vipassana meditation. Are there not critiques of this view in the scholarly literature? Alan McAllister Bancroft, Ontario 52451 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 310 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [d] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We all have accumulated jealousy and thus it is bound to arise. It is useful to notice the moments of jealousy, also when it is of a slight degree. We may be jealous when someone else is praised. We want to be praised ourselves and we do not want to be overlooked, we find ourselves important. In reality there is no self, only nåma and rúpa which arise because of their own conditions. The sotåpanna has right understanding of realities, he knows that there is no person who can receive or possess pleasant objects. He realizes that all experiences are only conditioned realities which do not stay and do not belong to a self. He has no more conditions for jealousy, he has eradicated it. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52453 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil's abhidhamma Qus (was Re: One Month Absence) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, [Firstly, pls everyone who just got Cetasikas 311 in your in-box, ignore it....it was meant to be sent to my drafts. Must be all that tape editing that’s befuddling me these days:). Also, Phil, before I forget, thanks for sharing the summary of your cute story. Best wishes for it in the competition. Now back to the Abhidhamma points we were discussing: --- Phil wrote: > >S: Kamma is > > cetana cetasika, but only naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya > (asynchronous > > kamma condition) can produce vipaka. This cetana accompanying > kusala and > > akusala cittas is still kamma. > > Ph: asynchronous means the result comes later, perhaps much later, > right? Results that come immediately would be through proximity > condition, repetition condition, something like that? The cetana of > one javana citta gives immeditate rise to the next javana citta > through repetition paccaya rather than kamma paccaya? .... S: Phala cittas (fruition consciousness) immediately follows magga citta (path consciousness), but otherwise the results can come anytime later depending on all the very complex factors and other supporting conditions. As you suggest, asevana paccaya (repetition condition) refers to the way javana cittas condition the following javana cittas in the same process. Of course, these are not ‘results’. Javana cittas are never vipaka cittas. .... <....> > > S: not we of course:). > > Ph: I'm starting to swing back a little to thinking that since we > are not sotapanna we can benefit from thinking about progress we > make as people, more conventionally. Ironically, it is listening to > the Perfections that has influenced me in that direction. Of course > energy, patience and so on are momentary cetasikas but in the > context of daily life there is inevitably clinging to this Phil who > is becoming more patient, more energetic etc. I am aware of it, at > least. .... S: So however noble it may appear, when it’s clinging to ‘me’, to a ‘transformed me’ or a ‘more patient me’ and so on, it’s taking us away from the development of detachment and awareness of realities. For many people, the aim of studying the Buddha’s teachings is to become a different kind of person, but any such aims or clinging will never lead to a growth of wisdom. There may seem to be an improvement in wholesome qualities and indeed for those who attained jhanas, there was no attachment to sense objects at such times. For those reborn in rupa and arupa jhana realms, such freedom from dosa and sense attachments could last a very, very long time. But unless the accumulations are known for what they are when they arise, such freedom from anger or attachment doesn’t take one any step closer to the goal. To quote again from MN 21 (as quoted in the Cetasikas thread): “Even so, monks, some monk here is very gentle, very meek, very tranquil so long as disagreeable ways of speech do not assail him...” etc. S: We can’t therefore judge progress along the path by such apparent temporary improvements in our temper! ..... > Listening to the recorded talks, studying Abhidhamma, always > keeps me from going too far in this direction, but it is a long, > long way until enlightenment and being supported in conventional > ways by consideration of progress toward becoming more wholesome > people etc doesn't hurt too much, I think. ... S: I’d just repeat that clinging is clinging. With regard to that comment of K.Sujin’s about the strong akusala having gone already and your response (to Nina) that your concern was for strong akusala that may arise in the future, it seems that then it’s just thinking about future states. Thinking and worrying about it now without any awareness of present dhammas won’t help either. Again: “For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state.” MN133 S: The only way is the development of understanding of dhammas appearing now. Now there is no strong akusala, but there are other dhammas to be known. .... >I think my recent realization that if I am honest I don't even > want out of samsara has made me more relaxed about all the tons of > lobha at the root of Dhamma practice. Thinking about it all the > time, but not being too strict about going for a little joy ride > with wrong view now and then. .... S: It’s conditioned like that anyway. It can be known when it arises too. .... >A lack of courage, a lack of patience at times, yes. That's ok. As > long as I keep studying Abhidhamma and listening to the talks I > won't swing too far into interpreting suttas with reckless wrong > view rooted in desire to become a better person. ... S: :-). The more awareness develops, the more we see that they really are mere dhammas and this leads to more understanding and detachment. .... > > S: Manasikara is a universal cetasika, not yoniso manasikara. We > don't > > have influence over any states of course! > > Ph: The little joy ride I took with wrong view this morning told > me differently... wink. .... S: -_^ ... > Ph: In A. Sujin's talks I've heard recently, I think it is often > said that it is so difficult to know mind door processes. THere is > the simile of the sense door process being one piece of ultra thin > paper, and the mind door being another. The object goes from the > sense door process to the mind door process as quickly as a drop of > water from one piece of paper to the next. It is a difficult subject > and perhaps I missed the point completely. But it seemed that there > cannot be "awareness and understanding" of mind door processes > according to that simile? ... S: I think you maybe mixing up two different points. Put simply: . 1.It seems that there is seeing and hearing all the time – in this way the mind door processes appear to be covered up. At other times it may seem that there is anger or lust all the time. Then the mind door processes seem to cover up the sense door processes. In fact, as we know, they rapidly follow each other and any consciousness falls away extremely fast (whether through the sense door or mind door). 2.The other point refers to the way that an object (such as visible object, sound or anger) which has fallen away is still the present object for awareness. This is where the simile comes in. A complex topic. I’m happy to clarify further if it would help. ..... > So a more conventional, "slower" if you will, understanding of > yoniso manasikara seems very desirable to me. As you say in one > talk "we always want more, we always want more..." .... S: Yes, clinging again....and that lurking idea that self can do something about it, perhaps! ... >>S:......Better an understanding of > whatever is > > conditioned now as a nama or rupa, not 'me' or 'mine' than a > trying to > > have more kusala in anyway. > > Ph: So as I suspected I have been using "development" (bhavana) > too loosely. Wholesome states must be understand to be accumulated? > No, not quite that. I heard yesterday that we accumulate metta in > daily life, for example, without understanding it....didn't I? .... S: Yes, it accumulates whenever it arises like all other states, including lobha, dosa and moha, but it’s self having metta and without any understanding (at level of samatha or satipatthana), there’s no development or real growth. .... > > You'll listen to much more on the tapes yourself in due course. > > Ph: Looking forward to it! I hope you are slaving in your Hong Kong > Dhamma sweatshop editing out quarrels and churning out CDs at this > very moment. .... S: :-):-) Thx for the encouragement. Lots in the works! ...... > Ph: .....I > am curious about how suttas we have read and reflected on in the > morning act as conditions for wholesome reflection later in the day. > I think one of the aspects that my view might be going a little > wrong is placing too much faith in the wholesome conditioning power > of reading and reflecting on suttas. But then again, maybe not. > > Thanks Sarah. .... S: As we know, the reading often does lead to wise reflection later as you say. However, if we read and reflect with any expectation of later wholesome conditioning as a result, we go wrong again. So, just reading, listening, considering and writing without expectations is best! Clinging comes in all the time, doesn’t it and sometimes silabbataparamasa too if we open the book with the idea that it will lead to more wisdom.... The teachings are subtle and far more subtle than we realize now, I think. Metta, Sarah ======= 52454 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, I hope you don't mind a few more comments here as well on this 'Phil Day'. --- Phil wrote: > But I personally think it is a bit dangerous to think that there > cannot now be helpful recognition/awareness of dosa, for instance. > To think that we have to wait until we have achieved stages of > insight until we can recognize dosa and respond to it with right > attention. .... S: Gradually through the development of awareness, any dhamma appearing can be known. But when it's known as 'my dosa' or there's any idea of 'responding to it' or 'doing something about it', it's not any development of satipatthana. ..... > > For example, tonight I heard Betty, I think (Shakti?) talking > about taking the bus in India, how it's all dosa, with the heat and > the dirt and the noise, and while I've never been on a bus in India, > I've certainly had days that were all heat and dirt and noise, > mentally speaking. A solid wall of dosa that seemed recognizable. > Now, A. Sujin's response to Betty (?) was to tell her that there > wasn't seeing of visible object at such times, .... S: There isn't any awareness of seeing or visible object when it seems like there's dosa all the time. No awareness of anything, because the dosa seems to be something lasting, not a dhamma. .... >and Betty (?) said > that she knew that, that it was all dosa. And again, the suggestion > from A.Sujin was that the thing to do here would be to have > satipatthana, to see visible object. ... S: Develop satipatthana and be aware of visible object and dhammas appearing, rather than obsessing over unpleasant stories. .... >Never saying "you should have > sati now", of course but there was no consideration of what to do > with all that dosa, which certainly clear and present on such days. .... S: Nothing can be done about what arises on those or any other days. It depends on conditions what arises and either there is sati 'following' such objects when they appear or there isn't. Very simple really, but of course it depends on all that prior wise attention and careful considering too. .... > We here that until there is that first stage of insight, knowing > nama and rupa, any awareness of lobha or dosa will be "my lobha, my > dosa" So what? We're not sotapanna, so I think there could be talk > of a wholesome response (or at least a less unwholesome response) to > all that dosa even if we're just thinking about it with self. .... S: When we think like this, of making a certain kind of wholesome response with self, there is no understanding of how dhammas are conditioned. So whatever response there is, with or without any attachment or wrong view, the dhammas can also be known for what they are. .... >In > other words, I think there can be talk of perfections of patience > and energy and equanimity *even when there is not satipatthana* > Because if we don't respond wisely to all that dosa, there could > be very severe kamma consequences. .... S: There can be talk of any good qualities without any understanding of satipatthana, but it won't be any development of the perfections. Anyone from any faith can talk about the value of generosity or patience, for example. The Buddha pointed out exactly what is what. Bad deeds motivated by dosa will lead to bad results. But the only way for this tendency to be eradicated is by really understanding these various arising dhammas for what they are. For example, if we don't speak harshly today simply because we're afraid of kammic results for ourselves or wish to appear as a good person but don't really see the danger or understand the akusala dhammas when they arise, the tendency remains firmly in place. .... >I think we can benefit from > hearing teachings that stress the importance of abstaining from > akusala even if there is self involved. I have heard A. Sujin say > that she is not concerned about akusala. I can only assume that she > is not familiar with akusala of the degree that I am prone to, > tempted to constantly. .... S: I think that the growth of understanding with detachment has to see and know and become detached from even the coarsest and strongest kinds of akusala. That's where the courage comes in -- to see such dhammas for what they are, not what we'd like them to be. When we think we can abstain with an idea of self doing such abstaining, it's wrong view. .... > Last night I heard Nina say that for the perfections there cannot > be self - and I think that is too hard, asking too much. We have a > long, long way to go until there is such satipatthana, .... S: Yes, but it has to begin and develop. So the right view, the right considering, the right pariyatti (an oxymoron!) are very important. There cannot be any development of the perfections without right view. ... >and I think > perfections can help us even without satipatthana, and that > awareness of dosa or lobha can be condition for an arising of this > kind of not-so-sublime perfection. ... S: Any awareness at any level of dosa and lobha as mental states, not yours or mine is a help, a start. But there has to be awareness of any conditioned dhammas, such as seeing or visible object appearing now, otherwise there's a kind of selection with attachment again which just wishes to zero in on the 'bad states' we want to be rid of. .... > Again, I get confused. Someone asks A. Sujin about the difference > between chanda and lobha, and she says one is kusala and the other > is akusala, and there is a suggestion that we should just know this, > it's obvious. And yet elsewhere she says that we cannot know kusala > from akusala until we have reached that first stage of insight of > knowing nama from rupa. ... S: It can begin! But any dhammas have to be known as namas or rupas, otherwise they're bound to be 'self' or 'something'. Metta, Sarah p.s comments an disagreements from anyone are welcome of course! ======== 52455 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:40am Subject: loving kindness in other way leoaive Aghatavinaya Sutta Subduing Hatred (2) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: A iii 186 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friend monks." "Yes, friend," the monks responded to him. Ven. Sariputta said: "There are these five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely. Which five? "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior but pure in their verbal behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their verbal behavior but pure in their bodily behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who do not periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are pure in their bodily behavior & their verbal behavior, and who periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "Now as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when a monk who makes use of things that are thrown away sees a rag in the road: Taking hold of it with his left foot and spreading it out with his right, he would tear off the sound part and go off with it. In the same way, when the individual is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior, and instead pay attention to the purity of his verbal behavior. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his verbal behavior, but pure in his bodily behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a pool overgrown with slime & water plants, and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. He would jump into the pool, part the slime & water plants with both hands, and then, cupping his hands, drink the water and go on his way. In the same way, when the individual is impure in his verbal behavior but pure in his bodily behavior, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his verbal behavior, and instead pay attention to the purity of his bodily behavior. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a little puddle in a cow's footprint, and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this little puddle in a cow's footprint. If I tried to drink the water using my hand or cup, I would disturb it, stir it up, & make it unfit to drink. What if I were to get down on all fours and slurp it up like a cow, and then go on my way?' So he would get down on all fours, slurp up the water like a cow, and then go on his way. In the same way, when an individual is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior...the impurity of his verbal behavior, and instead pay attention to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a sick man — in pain, seriously ill — traveling along a road, far from the next village & far from the last, unable to get the food he needs, unable to get the medicine he needs, unable to get a suitable assistant, unable to get anyone to take him to human habitation. Now suppose another person were to see him coming along the road. He would do what he could out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for the man, thinking, 'O that this man should get the food he needs, the medicine he needs, a suitable assistant, someone to take him to human habitation. Why is that? So that he won't fall into ruin right here.' In the same way, when a person is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, one should do what one can out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for him, thinking, 'O that this man should abandon wrong bodily conduct and develop right bodily conduct, abandon wrong verbal conduct and develop right verbal conduct, abandon wrong mental conduct and develop right mental conduct. Why is that? So that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he won't fall into the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, purgatory.' Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is pure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a pool of clear water — sweet, cool, & limpid, with gently sloping banks, & shaded on all sides by trees of many kinds — and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. Having plunged into the pool, having bathed & drunk & come back out, he would sit down or lie down right there in the shade of the trees. In the same way, when an individual is pure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay attention to the purity of his bodily behavior...the purity of his verbal behavior, and to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. An entirely inspiring individual can make the mind grow serene. "These are five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely." 52456 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:48am Subject: Rupa without (Was: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? sukinderpal Dear Joop, all, Joop: > After reading about what's happening to you some days ago I > understand that there were some days before you could answer. I must > also have been a terrible experience for your wife: driving through > the city hoping that you are not yet dead when entering the hospital > So many thanks for your answers of yesterday. Sukin: Thanks. Yes, my wife was panicking, and she started saying prayers as soon as she came down to the car and continued on while driving. I was rather getting quite irritated with that, and perhaps that was what helped push up my blood pressure a bit. :-)) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: I understand, but if any good is going to happen, then this > will be only if panna leads the way. > Joop: That's a good discription of me, only it's not "so-called" > speculation: there is a gap between what can be expereinced by the > five senses and the idea of rebirth. So can it be experienced by the > sixth sense? That's nearly speculation; a danger always is the > mechanism of 'wisfful thinking': because we want that something is > correct we think to experience it's correctness. > And you are right with your remark "only if panna leads the way". Sukin: Firstly, the idea of rebirth and the existence of other realms is not something I keep in the forefront of my mind. It is more like a necessary conclusion from my own understanding of Dhamma so far. I do not also give much importance to `belief'. However what I am questioning, is the idea of `disbelief', which to me seems in fact, a belief in something else. There are some ideas projected as a consequence of any line of thought, and rebirth and 31 realms may be one such projection. Only at enlightenment will I know what actually the truth is. In the meantime the question is, whether such ideas are in fact in line with the Teachings in general. Or does `disbelief' make it easier for Dhamma to be understood. And of course, this may depend on how much faith we have, that Dhamma is the answer to all our questions. But I agree with you and I have noted that this sometimes happens, that "a danger always is the mechanism of 'wishful thinking': because we want that something is correct we think to experience it's correctness." But this is a danger that comes with every belief or non- belief isn't it? Even when we think about relying on the knowledge gained from what is directly experienced through the six senses, isn't there a danger of projection, of seeing what we like to see? Isn't this one of my own warnings to `meditators'? ;-) The real problem is of course craving and wrong view. It may not be easy to see if whether `disbelief' in rebirth is wrong view, but certainly there must be craving somewhere related to this? Besides, does belief have to be a problem? Isn't the really great obstacle to Dhamma, wrong view? If indeed such disbelief is conditioned by annihilationist view, isn't this the real problem? Any ideas that we can't accept can be left at that. We don't have to dismiss it. I think what needs to be tackled is any wrong view that conditions our line of thinking. Wrong view after all, feels `so' right. The line of thinking which suggests the importance of investigating the experiences through the six doors may seem right by virtue of the `reasoning' itself. But I think it can be rooted in either right or wrong view. And if it is indeed the latter, then any investigation is bound to failure. Because wrong view, wrongly interprets experiences, and this all happens at the paramattha level. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: However as far as I am concerned, I think > their doubt will continue to increase. In the back of their minds > they seek to overcome doubt by actual "seeing" of devas > and "experiencing" rebirth. But such experience does not lead to a > decrease of doubt in the dhamma sense. > Joop: Wait a minute. It's good that you mention Batchelor ("Buddhism > without beliefs") but why introduce the term 'doubt'? You are > projecting. If I doubt than it's only about the topic that I don't > know exactly how Theravadins with a different cultural backround can > discuss the Dhamma. Sukin: What you call doubt seems to be in the realm of ideas, placing one against another and believing one and not the other. And this is why the "idea" of rebirth is doubtful to you. What I mean by doubt is related to experience of realities. And this is why I said to the effect that if one seeks to satisfy doubt about conventional realities, this does not have any bearing on any doubt with regards to ultimate realities. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > I think the Teachings of the Buddha are a mixture of absolute truth > and Indians culture which the Buddha used very skilful to teach the > people of his time. And for a westerner like me educated in a culture > without (much) magic a mixture of absolute truth with natural science > is a more fruitful one; of course only when panna leads the way. Sukin: You may think that I am Asian and I have very readily accepted or even never questioned the idea about devas and such. No, I have been influenced by science for a longer time than any Dhamma. I never believed in gods and such, though I did enjoy listening to Hindu Myths as a form of entertainment. :-) What I now believe however, is that the Indians of the pre-Buddhist times, were highly skilled in meditation and they reached very high levels of consciousness where it was possible to perceive "more" than what the five senses and any thinking related to this can perceive. So I do think that even they had a firm basis for their beliefs in devas and such. The Mythological part may be the product of others that followed, even our own. But I don't think they were just making things up. More importantly, the Buddha couldn't have said *one* false word, there were no conditions for it. If he used any symbolic language, he would have made it known, otherwise it could be very misleading and this would be equivalent to lying to his audience. Besides he could never ever be out of examples in real life to use as teachings tools, why should he rely on made belief things. You may say that the audience `needed' it, since *they* held those beliefs. But then you will be talking about those with far greater panna than you and I who in fact *did* become enlightened, while we are still struggling with the basics. Is this perhaps because we have too many ideas of our own? ;-) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > It's possible that in some years my thinking has evolved in the > direction you suggest but that's not something I try to reach. But is > must (in theory) also be possible that in some years your thinking > evolves and that you distil the core of the Dhamma from what I call > magic thinking? Sukin: :-) So lets leave things as they are, the Dhamma as it is. Trying to change things is trying to control the outcome, no? Metta, Sukin. 52457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken , doubt. nilovg Hi Phil, yes, I find it illuminating that the Buddha also classified doubt as a cetasika, arising with moha-muulacitta. It is real, it arises from time to time. The sotaapanna has eradicated it. And this by the development of right understanding of nama and rupa that appear now. When they are directly realized by paññaa there is no opportunity for doubt. But we should not have expectations when that will be, that is clinging. When pariyatti is firmly established it will lead by itself to direct awareness, in a natural way. Nina. op 14-11-2005 23:58 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > That's OK too. There must be times of doubt. Doubt is just another > conditioned nama. 52458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,197 nilovg Hi Larry, op 15-11-2005 01:55 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > U Narada: "Path is related to Fruition", natural strong dependence > condition is mixed with proximity strong dependence condition. > So, natural strong-dependence, which is naturally strong by itself, > becomes much stronger when it is assisted by another kind of strong > dependence condition mixed with it." > > This seems to contradict Vism.: > > Vism.XVII,84. > 84. (c) As to 'natural-decisive-support': the decisive-support is > natural, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. Faith, virtue, etc., > habitual to, one's own continuity are called natural. Or else, it is a > decisive-support by nature, thus it is a natural-decisive-support. The > meaning is that it is unmixed with object and proximity. > > Doesn't this mean that natural-decisive-support condition is unmixed > with proximity or object decisive-support? N: Yes. U Narada does not omit this, he also states this, but I did not quote all. He said that the three kinds of natural strong dependence condition are mixed or unmixed. Lokuttara cittas are special. Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana 2. nilovg Hi Tep, op 15-11-2005 02:36 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > In the earlier discussion you tried to compare the Bodhisutta's "teeth > clenching" and other austerites (which indicated the extremely strong > determination of the Bodhisatta to become Awakened) with the teeth > clenching, etc., in MN 20. But I don't think that was a fair comparison. ------ N: This is in the Commentary. He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. ------- > Clearly, MN 20 was a discourse the Buddha gave to his ordinary > monks at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove for relaxing fabricated akusala > vitakka ("unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or > delusion"). Akusala vitakka is to be eradicated by the second Path > factor, samma-sankappo. So it seems that these monks weren't > Sotapanna yet, since they still had problems with akusala vitakka. -------- N: Only paññaa can eradicate akusala vitakka. It can be temporarily subdued by cultivating kusala vitakka. Besides, even the sotaapanna is still attached to sense pleasures, he also can have anger, but no cruelty that motivates kamma that could lead to an unhappy rebirth. ---------- > The teeth clenching in MN 20 is the last of the five themes (nimitta); > these themes are to be applied step-by-step, starting with simple > switching of thoughts (vitakka) from akusala to kusala vitakka. ------ N: I do not see it has following steps. It shows that there are many ways to be applied to remove akusala thoughts. It depends on the individual what is best for him. As to teeth clenching, true, I also met this text in another sutta the Buddha preached to the monks. It is an example that great patience, perseverance and determination are needed to reach the final goal. One should use all possible means that are helpful, without taking effort for self. If one is sincere one can discover that alas often one takes effort for my effort. ---------- > Tep: I am curious as to how the higher consciousness, adhicitta, > are "based on vipassana". So please give me the part that shows > how adhicitta comes after vipassana. Thank you for the kind offer. > ........................... N: I wrote this: Co: The kusala citta arising with the ten bases of wholesomeness is not higher citta, adhicitta. The citta with the eight attainments that is based on vipassana is higher than that, it is the higher citta. N: the eight attainments in jhana. The Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi speaks in his notes to this sutta about vipassana based on jhana, but it is the opposite in this case: here it is jhana based on vipassana. Also PTS footnote gives: the eight attainments based on vipassana. Only then the citta is pure, higher citta, because one does not take jhana for self.> Adhicitta does not come after vipassanaa. We cannot say that. As mentioned before, I shall write separately on this subject. -------- > > Tep: With all due respect, I disagree with you. It is clear in > the "Instruction to Vangisa" sutta that the Venerable Ananda also gave > the advice to Vangisa Bhikkhu on using vipassana (contemplation of > the impermanence of the theme of the beautiful) with a big emphasis on > Asubha Sanna for extinguishing kamaraga. Vangisa Bhikkhu > apparently had the Dhamma Vinaya and he knew vipassana. Yet, > when he was in deep trouble, only Asubha Sanna could extinguish the > fire that was burning. 'Asubha sanna' is one part of the > effective 'Kayagatasati kammatthana' that Ven. Ananda also > mentioned in the verse below. ------ N: Taking what is not beautiful for beautiful is a perversion of saññaa, citta and di.t.thi. The sotaapana has eradicated the perversions of di.t.thi, but not yet the subha saññaa with saññaa and citta. Right understanding has to be developed on and on before this is eradicated. Asubha saññaa is emphasized. But again, together with vipassanaa. , yes, when one has become an anaagaami. , yes, continue developing vipassanaa until you have reached arahatship. The development of paññaa is never enough until arahatship has been reached. That is true peace. ------ Nina. 52460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana 1. nilovg Hi Tep, op 14-11-2005 06:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: The sutta message that rings the bell very clearly to me is that even > with no lobha (that makes you try hard or hope for results) and even if > you are equipped with the no-self attitude, achieving the high level > of "right understanding" (parinna) without a supreme effort (the four right > exertions and viriya-bala) and right mindfulness is day-dreaming. > Why? Because the vipassana pa~n~naa that results from "purification > by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path" > has its supports and conditions. ------ N: Yes. And when we study the four right efforst more we see that they go together with paññaa and are fulfilled by satipatthaana. ----------- > T: According to the Patisambhidamagga (also, see Vism. XX, 2 ): > 'understanding that is direct knowledge is knowledge in the sense of > being known. Understanding that is full understanding is knowledge in > the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is > knowledge in the sense of giving up' [Ps.i,87]. > > To attain the third level of "knowledge in the sense of giving up" one > needs the seven anupassana. ------- N: Yes, the three pariññas are actually the application of what one learnt by the vipassanaa ñaa.nas. Before there can be giving up, there must be thorough understanding of naama and ruupa. ------------ T: 'Contemplating as impermanence, a man abandons the perception of > permanence. Contemplating as painful, he abandons the perception of > pleasure. Contemplating as not self, he abandons the perception of > self. Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting. Causing fading > away, he abandons greed. Causing cessation, he abandons > originating. Relinquishing, he abandons grasping.' [Ps.i, 58] > > According to Vism. XIV,32 , the full-understanding that is abandoning is > supported by 1) understandings of aggregates, bases, elements, etc., > 2) purification of virtue, and 3) purification of consciousness. --------- N: Yes exactly. Some people think: first siila, then samaadhi, then the development of vipassanaa. I want to write about this separately. We shortly touched on this subject in India. -------- T: Therefore, that's why I have said that "right understanding" does not > comes easy. ------- N: Agreed. We need patience, perseverance and no expectations as to seeing a result soon. Nina. 52461 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Smallchap, I dont see nimittas anymore. I used to when i started meditation, but the process has speeded up and I dont see it anymore, but go into deeper states seemingly bypassing it. You need to be focused on the breath etc for a fairly long period of time for that to arise. I'm not sure if everyone experiences it either. My experience is that it is a mental representation of the object you are focused on...sort of like an afterimage which arises when you look into a bright light, but this based on the object of focus. It has been described as the moon, a string of pearls etc. I used to see it a bright 'tick' sign following the course of the breath. Looking back I would say you are atleast 50% of the way into a jhana, through prejhanic states of samadhi, when you see this. metta Matheesha 52462 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Alan - In a message dated 11/15/05 12:46:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, alanmcallister@... writes: > Howard, > > I am glad to have that clarified as what you have stated is more congruent > with the understanding that I had of the term. > > The bigger issue for me is Goenka's view that, because "Buddha was referring > to the physical, bodily sensations when he described vedana ... all > importance is to be given to the sensations that one feels on the body" and "bodily > sensations give us a stronger and more continuous hold on reality, and thus, > on the root cause of tanha"(Goenka, 1990). He seems to hold that any mental > event is registered as a bodily sensation and that we can get at a deeper > level of the mind by focusing on the bodily sensations as opposed to, for > instance, making thoughts or emotions objects in meditation as is done in other > techniques of vipassana meditation. Are there not critiques of this view in the > scholarly literature? --------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect there are. Some people have written that all four foundations of mindfulness must be (directly) known, and no doubt they would feel that Goenka's approach is one-sided. However, there are suttas that seem to indicate that even one of the four can serve as adequate basis. I personally think that Mr. Goenka goes too far in his view of the centrality of what he calls "vedana", but that nonetheless it is a wonderfully powerful approach, and I wouldn't be surprised if it could serve to take one most of the way if not all the way. ----------------------------------------- > > Alan McAllister > Bancroft, Ontario > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52463 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: > 1. Is your own meditative experience with respect to "jhana > phenomena" (e.g. nimitta and jhana factors) in good agreement with > the author? If not, then please briefly describe the major difference. M: Yes, it is. I@m not sure if he mentioned the ideas of filling the body with rapture etc by focusing - not a place left in the body without rapture, but this is mentioned by the buddha and also the bit about the breath linked with piti. I wonder whether that and other similies used by the buddha for each of the jhana had actual experiential reasons behind them. > 2. What is your opinion about the Venerable Buddhaghosa's > explanations on jhana as related to the anapanasati kammatthana in > Chapter VIII, the Visuddhimagga ? M: I didnt read any specific instructions on how to do anapanasathi in the document, but rather what you might experince when doing it. i tend to agree with him. I dont however believe that nimittas are so terribly important, which is why i left it out, as there is a lot of variation in what people experience and is only a half way point and not the jhana itself. I think it is important to note that the buddha said if someone knows concentration, i teach him insight and vice versa. Samadhi is samadhi and the idea that insight and concentration can be developed seperately, and usefully is a valid one. metta Matheesha 52464 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana matheesha333 Hi Larry, Alan, Howard and others, I agree with Howard on his comments on the goenka technique. If a person can see impermanance in just one thing, and is wise enough to generalize that to everything in existence, and keep doing just that for a prolonged enough period of time, that should be enough to take him all the way up (sariputta says this). Panna and nekkhamma (wisdom and renunciation) will grow and greater and greater depth. Larry, 'feelings' (vedana) incldue whether a sight is pleasant/unpleasant or neutral, and not the emotion which might follow from it. similarly sound, taste, thoughts etc. and not necessarily related to bodily sensations. metta Matheesha 52465 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada nilovg Dear Joop, op 13-11-2005 18:45 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > "It's possible to have a Theravada Buddhism in which the 31 minus 2 > realms of existence don't play a role. Because there are more > fundamental aspects then this one (it's not a necessary condition for > awakening for having been in one of this 29-2 realms.And because > without it this Theravada will attract much more modern human beings > it's acceptable to drop it." > Do you agree with this statement? ------ Nina: no. I did not follow all threads, but these two planes are: hellplane and ghost plane? Nobody in the world, not even a Buddha can alter the course of kamma and vipaaka. This is a kind of natural law, niyama. No matter a Tathaagata arises in the world of not, there is this law. It cannot be changed. I wrote this before: Perhaps you fall over the ways hells are described, but realities are explained by way of conventional terms. And perhaps hell is more horrid than described, it is beyond words. Nina. 52466 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation smallchap Hi Matheesha, > Hi Smallchap, > > I dont see nimittas anymore. I used to when i started meditation, but > the process has speeded up and I dont see it anymore, but go into > deeper states seemingly bypassing it. You need to be focused on the > breath etc for a fairly long period of time for that to arise. I'm not > sure if everyone experiences it either. My experience is that it is a > mental representation of the object you are focused on...sort of like > an afterimage which arises when you look into a bright light, but this > based on the object of focus. It has been described as the moon, a > string of pearls etc. I used to see it a bright 'tick' sign following > the course of the breath. Looking back I would say you are atleast 50% > of the way into a jhana, through prejhanic states of samadhi, when you > see this. No. I don't mean nimitta like sun, moon, etc. Let me rephrase my question and expand it a little. 1. What is the nimitta you experienced immediately prior to entering 1st jhana? 2. Do you experience the same nimitta when you emerge from 1st jhana? smallchap 52467 From: Alan McAllister Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:08am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] drampsych Howard: Thank you again for your comments. >>>Some people have written that all four foundations of mindfulness must be (directly) known, and no doubt they would feel that Goenka's approach is one-sided. However, there are suttas that seem to indicate that even one of the four can serve as adequate basis. I personally think that Mr. Goenka goes too far in his view of the centrality of what he calls "vedana", but that nonetheless it is a wonderfully powerful approach, and I wouldn't be surprised if it could serve to take one most of the way if not all the way.>>> It may well be true that Goenka's approach would get you most if not all of the way. My concern is that Goenka and his assistant teachers criticize mindfulness techninques that are more open as to the objects of meditation on the basis that they are dealing with the "surface" of the mind whereas his technique deals with the depths. Alan McAllister 52468 From: Alan McAllister Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:10am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] drampsych Mike, >>I think that vedanaa, whether in the suttanta or the abhidhamma is very explicit--it means feeling (whether mental or physical)--pleasant, unpleasant or neither pleasant nor unpleasant. That was my understanding as well. Thanks for your welcoming comments. Alan McAllister 52469 From: Alan McAllister Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:09am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] drampsych Larry: Thank you for your comments. >>In fact, it seems to me that mental feeling is experienced in the body. It may well be true that thoughts are registered as bodily sensation as Goenka seems to maintain. But is this consistent with the Abhidhamma? Alan McAllister 52470 From: Alan McAllister Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:13am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] drampsych Matheesha: Thank you for your comments. >If a >person can see impermanance in just one thing, and is wise enough to >generalize that to everything in existence, and keep doing just that >for a prolonged enough period of time, that should be enough to take >him all the way up (sariputta says this). Panna and nekkhamma >(wisdom and renunciation) will grow and greater and greater depth. > > I look at this issue in a slightly different way. It may well be true that the Goenka approach will get someone "all the way up," but I see meditation having a lot of other benefits in the mean time. For instance, the ability to recognize and deal with emotions (accept, tolerate, not react) in a more direct way than through bodily sensations seems to have many benefits even in the initial stages of learning to meditate, as the clinical literature is increasingly demonstrating. I am not sure that the same could be said for the "sweeping" approach. >Larry, 'feelings' (vedana) incldue whether a sight is >pleasant/unpleasant or neutral, and not the emotion which might >follow from it. similarly sound, taste, thoughts etc. and not >necessarily related to bodily sensations. This seems to be the crux of the issue since Goenka maintains that anything (sound, taste, thoughts, etc.) is registered as bodily sensation and, because of that, focussing on the bodily sensationis the most effective (deepest) way of dealing with these experiences. Alan McAllister 52471 From: Alan McAllister Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:11am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Re: Goenka and Vedana] drampsych Sarah: Thank you for your welcome and the comments and references. I will be looking through them. >Please tell us more about your background and interest. > I am a psychologist with a private practice in a rural area in central Ontario (Bancroft and Peterborough). I have been interested in Buddhism for several years, and was involved in Soto Zen practice back in the 60's, but I only took up meditating again in the last four years. I practice in the Mahasi style. I also use mindfulness techniques with my clients and encourage them to meditate if they are open to it. I went to the Goenka retreat out of curiosity (curiosity killed the cat!). >As for the sweeping technique and so on, imho,I think there may be >many beneficial health effects and it's really similar in this >regard with some chi/energy circulating techniques and other healing >methods. > >But does it have anything to do with the Buddha's teachings which >these other techniques don't in your opinion? > > I really am not well informed enough to make that judgement. I saw positives but also a lot of negatives in the Goenka approach. I would have great concerns, for instance, about exposing my clients to that approach. Alan McAllister 52472 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:01am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi smallchap, I'm still not sure what you mean :) The nimitta is traditionally used to mean patibhaganimitta, uggahanimitta etc. Do you mean it in a different sense to these? Is there a specific thing I experience just before jhana? Well I mentioned that i used to experience flashes of light, shivering etc just before a jhana. But not anymore. ..and never when coming out of the jhana. But this differes from person to person. A movement into a jhana is a bit of a calamitous event if you do feel it (some people apparently dont, and feel only coming out of it). Its difficult to say you were focused 'on this' or that because of the rush of ..mm no words to explain it really. Rush of the mind rising into a jhaana is as close as i can get. metta Matheesha 52473 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:10am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] matheesha333 Hi Allistar, A: I see > meditation having a lot of other benefits in the mean time. For > instance, the ability to recognize and deal with emotions (accept, > tolerate, not react) in a more direct way than through bodily sensations > seems to have many benefits even in the initial stages of learning to > meditate, as the clinical literature is increasingly demonstrating. I > am not sure that the same could be said for the "sweeping" approach. M: There are many benefits of the whole buddhist path open to beginners, as its sole aim is the cessation of suffering. Then there are benefits to those who are progressed in practice which go beyond clinical literature. I'm sure you must have seen Mindfulness Based Cognitive therapy (MBCT) and DIalectic Behavioral therapy (DBT) whose roots are in Buddhism. These technques use only a small percentage of what is possible. Even CBT technques have been noted in the pali canon as in the vitakkasantana sutta. metta Matheesha 52474 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] upasaka_howard Hi, Alan (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 11/15/05 12:15:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, alanmcallister@... writes: > This seems to be the crux of the issue since Goenka maintains that > anything (sound, taste, thoughts, etc.) is registered as bodily > sensation and, because of that, focussing on the bodily sensationis the most > effective > (deepest) way of dealing with these experiences. > ========================== I *do* suspect that "anything (sound, taste, thoughts, etc.)" is reflected (rather than registered) as bodily sensation, this being especially obvious when it comes to emotion, but the direct observing of that sensation is merely kayanupassana and does not constitute mindfulness of the other three foundations of mindfulness. I think that the main benefit in emphasizing mindfulness of bodily sensation is that such sensation is less likely than feelings, mental states, emotions, and thinking to be identified as me or mine, and is less likely in general to be overlaid by conceptualization. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52475 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada jwromeijn Dear Nina Your answer is clear. Perhaps I have more chance with another question: do you have proposals yourself about what language, what metaphores, what myths can be used best to give Therava the best possibility in a not- buddhistic culture (for example in the future)? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, > op 13-11-2005 18:45 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@y...: > > > "It's possible to have a Theravada Buddhism in which the 31 minus 2 > > realms of existence don't play a role. Because there are more > > fundamental aspects then this one (it's not a necessary condition for > > awakening for having been in one of this 29-2 realms.And because > > without it this Theravada will attract much more modern human beings > > it's acceptable to drop it." > > Do you agree with this statement? > ------ > Nina: no. > I did not follow all threads, but these two planes are: hellplane and ghost > plane? > Nobody in the world, not even a Buddha can alter the course of kamma and > vipaaka. This is a kind of natural law, niyama. > No matter a Tathaagata arises in the world of not, there is this law. > It cannot be changed. > I wrote this before: > Buddha arises in the world or not. I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey of > Paramattha dhammas: > > < The Buddha respected the Dhamma he had penetrated. We read in the ³Kindred > Sayings² (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Ch VI, § 2, Holding in Reverence) that the > Buddha, when he shortly after his enlightenment was staying at Uruvelå, was > considering to whom he could pay respect, but that he could find nobody in > the world who was more accomplished than himself in morality, concentration, > insight, emancipation, or knowledge of emancipation. We then read that he > said: > > "This Dhamma then, wherein I am supremely enlightened- what if I were to > live under It, paying It honour and respect!² > > The Buddha did not teach that those dhammas he had realized could be > controlled by him. He proclaimed that even he, himself, could not cause > anybody to attain the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness which > experience nibbåna at the moment of enlightenment and to become liberated > from dukkha. He taught that only the practice of the Dhamma is the condition > for the person who practises to attain the path-consciousness and > fruition-consciousness which experience nibbåna at the moment of > enlightenment and to become liberated from dukkha.> > > Perhaps you fall over the ways hells are described, but realities are > explained by way of conventional terms. And perhaps hell is more horrid than > described, it is beyond words. > > Nina. > 52476 From: nina Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:01am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia. Ch 8, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, But Sawong: In Kmer language we say that dhammas take beings somewhere. Kusala dhamma prevents beings from falling into an unhappy plane. However, as to akusala dhamma and avyåkata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma that is neither kusala nor akusala, where do they take beings to? Sujin: If akusala kamma is a completed course of action [2] , it can produce an unhappy rebirth as result. As to indeterminate dhammas, these include vipåka citta and cetasika which can arise in different planes of existence. But Sawong: Someone asks about the three classes of dhamma: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyåkata dhamma. He wants to know in particular about the classification of sobhana dhammas, beautiful dhammas. Sujin: Beautiful dhammas include kusala dhammas and also avyåkata dhammas that are sobhana, namely sobhana cetasikas that arise with sobhana vipåkacitta and sobhana kiriya citta [3] . But Sawong: The last question is about nibbåna. What is nibbåna? Sujin: Only paññå can know this. But Sawong: Can Mother Sujin say something to the listeners by way of conclusion? Sujin: All of us in our group who have come to Cambodia wish to express their appreciation of the kusala citta of all people who are interested in the study of the Dhamma; their study will be a condition for continuing the development of paññå. But Sawong: The Abbot wishes to chant a recitation of texts on the occasion of this last session before Mother Sujin and the group return, and he invites Mother Sujin to come in front of him. Mother Sujin is the ambassador of the Dhamma, she has come to explain the Dhamma in Cambodia. We invite her to sign the book as a souvenir of her explanation of the Dhamma today. --------- footnotes; 2. Akusala kamma is not always a completed course of action. There are certain factors which make it into a completed action. In the case of killing, for example, there must be a living being, one must know that there is a living being, one must have the intention to kill, there must be the effort to kill and consequent death (Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Ch V, Courses of Immoral Action, 97). Akusala kamma that is a completed action can produce as result an unhappy rebirth. 3. Vipåkacittas can be ahetuka, not accompanied by hetus, roots, or sahetuka, accompanied by sobhana hetus. The arahat cannot perform kamma anymore that produces result, since he will not be reborn. Therefore, he has, instead of kusala cittas, kiriyacittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. ****** Nina. 52477 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:33am Subject: 2 types of DO dacostacharles Hi All, I remembered that, a long time ago, someone asked about DO in Arhats, so I am posting this in hopes of re-stimulate more discussion on the subject. Twelve Links: The Two Aspects of Interdependent Co-Arising When Conditioned by the "True Mind" and the "Deluded Mind." The Links within True Mind: Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. The Links within a Deluded Mind: Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be -- Birth -- Old age & Death -- Ignorance. I don't remember where I found this but I think it is Mahayana. I have another version based on the Forest monk tradition of Thailand. I will post it later (I have to find it first). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 52478 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Nina, YES, YES (very good point :-); but is DO a Noble Truth? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Phil and Charles, But if we consider the D.O. we see that ignorance is at the root of all the dukkha of samsara. Different aspects of explaining the truth. Nina. op 12-11-2005 23:38 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Well yes, that's true. The second truth is craving. The Buddha > doesn't say that the origin of suffering is ignorance. You've got a > major point there! :) 52479 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 0:06pm Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Phil, DO is a loop. And what gives rise to that Loop? Some would say "Birth," others would say "Mind/body." What do you say? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta PS: Ignorance is only one branch of the root! Some say there are 2 other branchs, or maybe 4. -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Monday, 14 November, 2005 02:49 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) Thanks Nina Indeed, ignorance starts off the cycle of D.O. But I thought I read somewhere that it might be a mistake to interpret D.O as starting from ignorance instead of seeing it as a loop in which ignorance is one key factor? Something like that? But I agree that ignorance is at the root of all our problems. And we do know that there is ignorance (moha) with every unwholesome (askuala) citta. Phil 52480 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 0:12pm Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Phil, Doubt is also a stain/taint (close to a poison). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Nina > It is the first mentioned link, but this is nit meant as being first in time > as you know. But ignorance and craving condition rebirth. Craving is > mentioned further in the cycle. > There is so much to study here. Yes, last night I hear A. Sujin, Rob K, Sukin, Mike Niese and others discussing the links in some detail. Quite overwhelming, the paccayas and links of paticca samupaddha (D.O). There is a tendency to oversimplify re the latter, think we "got it" but of course the Buddha said that it is a deep, deep teaching. It is one of those things that I am not pressing to understand now, because I know the understanding can only arise very, very gradually. Last night I was feeling mildly discouraged because I know that everything for me is just thinking, thinking, thinking. There is nothing direct, nothing whatsover. But then I thought that at least I know that it is all thinking, so that is something. And there is also some doubt in the Buddha's teachning these days, suspicion that there can never really be anything more than thinking, some doubt about kamma and rebirth and so on. Some suspicion that Dhamma is just a very refined and beautiful form of intellectual construct. That's OK too. There must be times of doubt. Doubt is just another conditioned nama. Phil 52481 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) sbillard2000 How an element could start a such circle if each originate (are dependant) from the other elements ? If you have one element, like ignorance, or craving, then you have all depending elements. And if you break one element, then the loop is broken, and all depending elements have no cause. It is how I see the question. I read also in some Mohan Wijayaratna books that in the suttas, the cycle doesn't always begin with ignorance, sometimes it is craving. A cycle has no start after all, you are in or you are out :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > Indeed, ignorance starts off the cycle of D.O. But I thought I read > somewhere that it might be a mistake to interpret D.O as starting from > ignorance instead of seeing it as a loop in which ignorance is one key > factor? Something like that? 52482 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 0:55pm Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Phil, Mahayanist view Greed and Hate being born of Ignorance. To most, Ignorance is the root problem, and to some, the only problem. They also believe that they can not be free from suffering until all beings are freed from it (their great aspiration is based on, if one being suffers, they too will suffer, at the least because of their compassion for that being). They also believe that we are born with Buddha Nature, and Enlightenment is having the covers of clouds/delusions/Ignorance removed so that this nature can be experienced or realized. The idea that the different groups see different things as the problem comes from what each of these groups tend to emphasize as the problem in their respective literature. And yes, they all do see and acknowledge each other's view of the problem, but the emphasize appears to be: Mahayanists see ignorance as the problem, Abhidhamma-ists see a self-view as the problem, and the elders see desire as the problem. --------------------------------------- Phil: Since it is only understanding, seeing, knowing that will liberate us, I think it's safe to say that ignorance is at the root of all unwholesomeness. ............................................... Does wisdom naturally include morality or the strength to act according to it? -------------------------------------------- C: As long as there is Ignorance without desire, there will be no suffering. ...................... P: But the way our mind works, it is almost impossible to have ignorance without desire coming very fast, almost instantaneously, I'd say. See the above. "When feelings are not understood (ie when there is ignorance) the tendency to lust is present. As soon as a mildly pleasant or even neutral object arises, there is lobha (desire/greed) as the mind leaps to identify the object, categorize it, decide where it fits in the web of likes and dislikes. So even there, with every sensory object, there is lobha. Oh. Now I don't know if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing. Never mind. Wanting to figure things out here and now before the understanding is there is more ignorance and desire/greed at work. ............................. C: I understand your confusion; you presume that desire is ever/always present. ------------------------------------------------- C: As long as there is desire without ignorance, suffering can be eliminated when it arises. .................................... P: Not possible to have desire without ignorance, plain and simple. (Unless the desire is that wholesome chanda/zeal I mentioned the other day.) All unwholesome cittas are rooted in moha (ignorance.) Some are also rooted in dosa (aversion) and others are also rooted in lobha (desire.) I don't know if this is only in Abhidhamma but it makes sense to me. ............................... C: Desire can be good or bad (wholesome or unwholesome). Do Arhants eat? If so, do they eat because they feel hunger or do they do it just because the food is there, or ... Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Charles > You must be a Mahayanist. I don't think so. Don't Mahayanists believe that all people can be Buddhas by the grace of Buddha or something like that? The idea of all people being saved used to appeal to me, but I think now that the gate is much, much narrower than that. In another post, I think you said that Mahayanists see ignorance as the problem, and Abhidhamma-ists (?) see self as the problem, and the elders see desire as the problem. Something like that. To be honest, that sounds like an idea you must have picked up from reading a modern teacher. I would have thought that anyone who understands Dhamma, from whatever tradition, would see all three of the unwholesome roots as the problem. > Good points, very logical, but from experience -- > Have you ever wanted something you know is not good for you? Of course. But there is ignorance at the root of that. If there was understanding that the thing I desire is dukkha, annica and anatta, there wouldn't be the desire for it. There would be "revulsion, dispassion, abandonment" etc. Of course, we are a long, long way from?@that. In the meantime, I agree that desire is what causes us trouble. But the root of the problem is ignorance, not the desire itself. I heard this the other day. When there is akusala citta (such as desire or aversion) "if sati-sampajanna arises and knows it as akusala citta) there are conditions for kusala citta." Still unclear on what this "sati-sampashanna" is exactly - I think it is sati accompanied by panna. So it is knowing/understanding paramattha dhammas that leads out of slavery to them, it is amoha (panna - amoha means "lack of ignorance") that leads us out of slavery to the things that we desire. It is ignorance of their true characteristics that leads to the desire. I also read this this morning. "When one expereinces pleasure, if one does not understand feelings, the tendency to lust is present." (SN 36.3) And another sutta, not on hand at the moment says that desire and hatred cannot be abandoned by acts of body or speech, it is only by seeing them wisely that they can be abandoned. Since it is only understanding, seeing, knowing that will liberate us, I think it's safe to say that ignorance is at the root of all unwholesomeness. > According to the First tradition (that of the elders): Desire is the root > cause of suffering (2 NT). Well yes, that's true. The second truth is craving. The Buddha doesn't say that the origin of suffering is ignorance. You've got a major point there! :) Mind full of desire is a sicken state. > Knowledge/wisdom (or the lack of ignorance) is only the prescription for the > effects of Desire (4NT). Yes, we agree there. > MY point in short: As long as there is Ignorance without desire, there will > be no suffering. But the way our mind works, it is almost impossible to have ignorance without desire coming very fast, almost instantaneously, I'd say. See the above. "When feelings are not understand (ie when there is ignorance) the tendency to lust is present.) As soon as a mildly pleasant or even neutral object arises, there is lobha (desire/greed) as the mind leaps to identify the object, categorize it, decide where it fits in the web of likes and dislikes. So even there, with every sensory object, there is lobha. Oh. Now I don't know if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing. Never mind. Wanting to figure things out here and now before the understanding is there is more ignorance and desire/greed at work. > As long as there is desire without ignorance, suffering can > be eliminated when it arises. Not possible to have desire without ignorance, plain and simple. (Unless the diesire is that wholesome chanda/zeal I mentionned the other day.) All unwholesome cittas are rooted in moha (ignorance.) Some are also rooted in dosa (aversion) and others are also rooted in lobha (desire.) I don't know if this is only in Abhidhamma but it makes sense to me. Phil 52483 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 0:59pm Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Yes Sebastien, But then, how does one enter the cycle? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- How an element could start a such circle if each originate (are dependant) from the other elements ? If you have one element, like ignorance, or craving, then you have all depending elements. And if you break one element, then the loop is broken, and all depending elements have no cause. It is how I see the question. I read also in some Mohan Wijayaratna books that in the suttas, the cycle doesn't always begin with ignorance, sometimes it is craving. A cycle has no start after all, you are in or you are out :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > Indeed, ignorance starts off the cycle of D.O. But I thought I read > somewhere that it might be a mistake to interpret D.O as starting from > ignorance instead of seeing it as a loop in which ignorance is one key > factor? Something like that? 52484 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) sbillard2000 I suppose that if there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in the circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving etc. Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > But then, how does one enter the cycle? 52485 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Hi Sarah, > Welcome to DSG and thanks for the interesting points you raised from your > translation of the Brahmajala Sutta. In due course, you may like to obtain > a copy of B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta and commentaries: 'The > All-embracing Net of Views', pub by BPS and maybe available from Pariyatti > books too. Thanks, Yes I think I will have to use english material, as french material is more rare, or very expensive. We have though a french mirror of Accesstoinsight, canonpali.org, even if it is less big than the original one. > I also looked at your website and thought that if I ever take up French > studies again, that's how I'll do it (reading your translations!). You're > doing a good job. Thanks again, for those not comfortable with blogs here is a link to all translation I made so far : http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear/?q=sutta And for more french Dhamma lecture I also made this website "what the Buddha said about" http://s.billard.free.fr/sadhu/ a repository of quotes from the pali canon, categorized by themes. > S: I'm sure there are people who may be interested, but please don't post > the whole sutta here even in English, let alone French!! It's too long for > a message and this is an English discussion group:-). You can give a link > to your website when it's finished and of course, ask about words or > phrases for translation as you're already doing. It's especially > interesting when it leads to further discussion of the terms, like > 'omniscient wisdom'. Yes, you are right, and even if I will release it in one document, I will break it in several themed posts on my blog as this sutta covers many topics, like the self, the world, the universe, the so-called "god"... > Can you tell us a little more about your background/interest in the > Buddha's teachings? I hope you're not affected by all the unrest in > France. My interest started for no precise (or known) reason perhaps 2 years ago. I became interested in buddhism in general, though my influences were mostly Mahayana, because most of available material concern this branch of buddhism. I realized that many of my personal views about self, world... fitted with the Buddha's teachings. After digging a lot, i found that the Theravada school was the most logical and had better preserved the Dhamma, without any later additions or modifications like tantric practices, magical matters, or transcendancy (Like a primordial buddha, or some kind of consciousness). But my problem now is that if I "intellectualize" a lot, I do not really meditate apart sometimes trying to give attention to my daily activities, like breathing, or walking, or noting physical or mental sensations. I wish I could meditate but there is no theravadin center here, and I don't want to go to tibetan centers. My only contact with theravadin world is with Ven. Dhamma Sami, a french monk in Myanmar, who maintains the (excellent) website www.dhammadana.org Concerning unrests, don't believe the hype, and forget CNN or FOX reports. Yes there are riots in some neighborhoods, but it is on small areas. France is not burning, and things are going better now :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52486 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brahmajala Sutta english to french translation sbillard2000 Hi Phil >This reminds me of one of my favourite little sutta phrases that I >picked up somewhere or other, about mana (conceit) I don't have it >here, but it's something like "I am better than him," "he is better >than me", "we are the same" - what can be the cause of such thinking >other than not seeing things as they truly are?" (rough paraphrase) There is also a quote by Nagarjuna : "To pretend to be inferior to the inferior, equal to the equal, superior or equal to the inferior, this is self pride" >Also, I recall that there is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that says >that we can get caught up in concepts of masculinity and femininity, >warns against it. It's quite interesting. Can anyone post the link? This sutta perhaps ? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-048.html Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52487 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation smallchap Hi Matheesha, Yes. Uggahanimitta for anapana is what I meant. In your case it was flashes of light. Your have given a very detailed description of the jhana state. Thank you very much.. smallchap 52488 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana lbidd2 Matheesha: "Larry, 'feelings' (vedana) include whether a sight is pleasant/unpleasant or neutral, and not the emotion which might follow from it. similarly sound, taste, thoughts etc. and not necessarily related to bodily sensations." Hi Matheesha and Alan, Feeling arises with every consciousness. It is classified as mental feeling and bodily feeling. Bodily feeling arises only with body consciousness, not eye-consciousness etc., in the abhidhamma classification. Only neutral feeling arises with eye-, ear-, tongue-, nose-consciousness. Body consciousness arises with painful or pleasant feeling. Love and hate arise with pleasant or painful feeling. If you look carefully you will see that you can locate this feeling in the body even though feeling that accompanies a root consciousness is classified as a mental feeling. As far as I know, abhidhamma doesn't say anything about this kind of experience (the experiencing of mental feeling in the body). I'm pretty sure what Mr. Goenka wants you to look for when "sweeping" the body with mindfulness is pain or pleasure, not hardness, softness, or posture. But because it is the body, these elements of body consciousness are also present. Larry 52489 From: "smallchap" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation smallchap Hi Matheesha, > Yes. Uggahanimitta for anapana is what I meant. In your case it was > flashes of light. Your have given a very detailed description of the > jhana state. Thank you very much.. > Sorry, I get confused with the Pali term. Uggahanimitta should read Patibhaganimitta, the counterpart sign. smallchap 52490 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana 1. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - The threads Asubha Bhavana 1 (#52460) and 2(# 52459) are an excellent summary of our discussion on asubha sanna and right understanding. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 14-11-2005 06:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > The sutta message that rings the bell very clearly to me is that even > > with no lobha (that makes you try hard or hope for results) and even if > > you are equipped with the no-self attitude, achieving the high level > > of "right understanding" (parinna) without a supreme effort (the four right > > exertions and viriya-bala) and right mindfulness is day-dreaming. > > Why? Because the vipassana pa~n~naa that results from "purification > > by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path" > > has its supports and conditions. > ------ > N: Yes. And when we study the four right efforst more we see that they go > together with paññaa and are fulfilled by satipatthaana. > ----------- > > > T: According to the Patisambhidamagga (also, see Vism. XX, 2 ): > > 'understanding that is direct knowledge is knowledge in the sense of > > being known. Understanding that is full understanding is knowledge in > > the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is > > knowledge in the sense of giving up' [Ps.i,87]. > > > > To attain the third level of "knowledge in the sense of giving up" one > > needs the seven anupassana. > ------- > N: Yes, the three pariññas are actually the application of what one learnt > by the vipassanaa ñaa.nas. Before there can be giving up, there must be > thorough understanding of naama and ruupa. > ------------ > T: 'Contemplating as impermanence, a man abandons the perception of > > permanence. Contemplating as painful, he abandons the perception of > > pleasure. Contemplating as not self, he abandons the perception of > > self. Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting. Causing fading > > away, he abandons greed. Causing cessation, he abandons > > originating. Relinquishing, he abandons grasping.' [Ps.i, 58] > > > > According to Vism. XIV,32 , the full-understanding that is abandoning is > > supported by 1) understandings of aggregates, bases, elements, etc., > > 2) purification of virtue, and 3) purification of consciousness. > --------- > N: Yes exactly. Some people think: first siila, then samaadhi, then the > development of vipassanaa. I want to write about this separately. We shortly > touched on this subject in India. > -------- > T: Therefore, that's why I have said that "right understanding" does not > > comes easy. > ------- > N: Agreed. We need patience, perseverance and no expectations as to seeing a > result soon. > Nina. > Tep: I admire your careful and consistent remarks that reflect your unshakable belief. Although we did not agree with each other with respect to the (application of) asubha sanna, still it was a good discussion, since we agreed upon other important points. Respectfully, Tep ==== 52491 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - Thank you very much for replying to the questions. >Math: > > I think it is important to note that the buddha said if someone > knows concentration, i teach him insight and vice versa. Samadhi is > samadhi and the idea that insight and concentration can be developed seperately, and usefully is a valid one. > Tep: What is your thought about simultaneous development of samatha and vipassana (or switching from one mode to another, back and forth)? MN 149, for example, shows how insight(vipassana) and tranquillity (samatha) CAN be developed that way. Regards, Tep ======== 52492 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:26pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 311 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [e] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] When we see the disadvantages of envy we will cultivate conditions for having it less often. Sympathetic joy, muditå, is the opposite of envy. Muditå is sympathetic joy in someone else’s prosperity and happiness. The Buddha taught us different ways of developing wholesomeness and the development of sympathetic joy is one of them. At first it may be difficult to rejoice in other people’s happiness, but when we appreciate the value of sympathetic joy there are conditions for its arising. It can gradually become our nature to rejoice in other people’s happiness. When there is sympathetic joy, the citta is kusala citta. Each kusala citta is accompanied by non-attachment, alobha, non-hate, adosa, and it may be accompanied by right understanding or without it. Envy cannot be eradicated by sympathetic joy, even if we have many moments of it. Only right understanding of nåma and rúpa can eventually eradicate envy. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52493 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > The Buddha did volitionally act, and those actions had > consequences. > In some technical sense, those actions were morally neutral or > "functional", > and they had no "kammic" consequences. I hypothesized that this means > that that > the Buddha's volitions, as all else pertaining to an arahant, were > uninfected > by the three poisons, which no longer arose, and that the consequences > were > not "kammic". .... S: OK, he’s released from the rounds of rebirth, not just in a ‘technical sense’! ... > It is the matter of the "non-kammic" nature of the fruit > of the > functional actions of an arahant that I am asking about. ... S: There is no ‘fruit’ of these ‘functional actions’. I thought (possibly mistakenly) you were also referring to the effects on others, such as the followers and the elephant, which of course are determined by our own vipaka and accumulations largely. .... >I hypothesized > that > this amounted to the kiriya kamma leaving no moral (positive or > negative) imprint > in an arahant's mindstream, but you seem to be saying that that's not > it. > Then what is it? That remains unclear. .... S: Just to clarify, cetana (intention) arises with every single citta and ‘directs’ the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) and citta by way of conascent kamma condition. This applies to all cittas, including those of the arahant. However, the kiriya (inoperative) cittas of the arahant which replace kusala (wholesome) cittas in the javana process of the arahant are not ‘kamma’ because they do not act as asynchronous kamma condition which means as you say, that they cannot produce vipaka (fruit) of any kind. These kiriya cittas and accompanying mental factors are still sobhana (beautiful) however. They arise because of many conditions as usual, especially by way of natural decisive support condition (accumulations) and in turn act as conditions for further sobhana cittas to arise during that life. Arahants are all different because of different vipaka cittas experienced, different accumulations and so on. For others, I’d just like to mention that the reason the texts refer to sobhana cittas and cetasikas at all is because sobhana cetasikas don’t only accompany kusala (wholesome) cittas, but also vipaka and kirya cittas. It’a also true to say that even for arahants, all sobhana cittas must be accompanied by alobha (non-attachment) and adosa (non-aversion), but not always by amoha (wisdom). Here’s a brief quote from the Abhidamattha Sangaha (Narada transl): "17. Kiriya or Kriya, literally, means action. Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action. Kamma is causally effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective. Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahats are called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as they have gone beyond both good and evil. In Abhidhamma vipaka and kiriya are collectively called avyakata (Indeterminate), that which does not manifest itself in the way of an effect. The former is avyakata, because it is an effect in itself, the latter, because it does not produce an effect." ..... Hope this clarifies anything I said before. Metta, Sarah ======= 52494 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta, Cinta and Bhavana maya panna sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & Nina (all and Alan Mc at the end), I hope you and your wife don't have any further scares and emergencies. Think 'taxi' rather than driving next time perhaps! Your post on suttamayapanna etc was very good - well-written. A good ending too: --- Sukinder wrote: > I therefore think that if we try so hard to `do' satipatthana, we are in > > fact going the opposite way. We even reduce the chance for > cintamayapanna to arise. Worse still, if we mistake the wrong result for > right, then we will also take the wrong path to be the correct one. And > attachment to this grows, so much so that we may end up downplaying > suttamayapanna. > > So back to my oft mentioned point about the need for correct pariyatti, > which includes understanding correctly what it means by patipatti. :-) > > This is all that comes to mind at this moment. ... S: I'll look forward to any more which comes to mind too:-). Nina, i know you're not very interested in photos, but Lodewijk is, I think. This is a link Sukin gave to some of K.Foo's photos: http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/album?.dir=8f04&.src=ph &store=&prodid=&.done=http 3a//in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos I'm not sure if it will take you to his photos too (or Christine's):-/ For others, some may be interested in the man 'But Sawong' who is asking all the questions to K.Sujin in the extracts from her translated talks/discussions in Cambodia. He is a Cambodian Dhamma teacher and he can be seen (in white) with K.Sujin in photo no 8 in the 'Meetings' section of the DSG album with the bhikkhus behind them. (We also had very good English discussions in Cambodia which we hope to edit and upload in due course). Alan Mc, I thought of you and your comments on Goenka's technique when I read this last part from a recent extract of Dh in Cambodia: "When the understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa grows, no matter whether they appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body or the mind-door, one will gradually cling less to the wrong view of self. Insight knowledge that clearly realizes dhammas as they are, knows the truth because panna leads to detachment from the wrong view of self." Any comments? Metta, Sarah ========= 52495 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 0:53am Subject: Rupa without (Was: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Joop, all, > ..... > :-) So lets leave things as they are, the Dhamma as it is. Trying to > change things is trying to control the outcome, no? > > Metta, > > Sukin. > Dear Sukin, all Thanks, your letter is clear and don't give me much discussion- problems; only some (rather) short remarks: Sukin: "Even when we think about relying on the knowledge gained from what is directly experienced through the six senses, isn't there a danger of projection, of seeing what we like to see? Isn't this one of my own warnings to `meditators'? ;-)" Joop: I know some DSG-participants interprete the 'right mindfulness' and the 'right concentration' of the Noble Eightfold Path as doing (formal) meditation and other participants let it happen in daily life. I think a combination of both is no problemgood and doing meditation without seeing what I like to see is possible: I really don't have any idea what will happen in the future in my or as a result of my meditation. Sukin: " It may not be easy to see if whether `disbelief' in rebirth is wrong view … Does belief have to be a problem? Isn't the really great obstacle to Dhamma, wrong view?" Joop: I haven't said that I don't belief in rebirth, rebirth is simply not a part of my culture. It is not a part of my frame of reference. Anicca, anatta and dukkha is, I have the inner convicion that they are true. So my question to you: can you imagine Or said in an other way, what do you prefer: somebody who accepts sixty procent of the Theravada doctrines or somebody who doesn't accept Theravada at all because it is so orthodox? And I know "wrong view" is a very important topic of many DSG- participants like you, Sarah writes many times about it too. To me "wrong view" is a topic too, but much less important than "anicca" but that's what really inspires me to be a Buddhist. "Anicca" combined with "emptiness" as described in MN 121 by the Buddha Metta Joop 52496 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] loving kindness in other way sarahprocter... Hi Leo (& Nina), I thought the following was a very beautiful sutta you quoted, thank you: --- Leo wrote: > Aghatavinaya Sutta > Subduing Hatred (2) > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: A iii 186 ... S: It really reminds me of the meaning of 'kalyana mitta', of being a good friend, no matter how 'good' or 'bad' other people are with whom we associate, rather than looking for people to be good friends to us. We read the examples of being friendly to those who are impure in bodily behaviour, but pure in verbal behaviour, then the opposite, then those who are impure in bodily and verbal behaviour but sometimes show mental clarity. Afterwards we come to those who are impure in bodily and verbal behaviour and who never experience mental clarity: >"And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a sick man — in pain, seriously ill — traveling along a road, far from the next village & far from the last, unable to get the food he needs, unable to get the medicine he needs, unable to get a suitable assistant, unable to get anyone to take him to human habitation. Now suppose another person were to see him coming along the road. He would do what he could out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for the man, thinking, 'O that this man should get the food he needs, the medicine he needs, a suitable assistant, someone to take him to human habitation. Why is that? So that he won't fall into ruin right here.' In the same way, when a person is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, one should do what one can out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for him, thinking, 'O that this man should abandon wrong bodily conduct and develop right bodily conduct, abandon wrong verbal conduct and develop right verbal conduct, abandon wrong mental conduct and develop right mental conduct. Why is that? So that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he won't fall into the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, purgatory.' Thus the hatred for him should be subdued."< ..... S: Then we came to the one who is pure in all regards and one can be truly inspired. If you add a few of your comments when you quote extracts from suttas, I think it would encourage others to read and discuss them more. By the way, Nina, you were talking before on list and to me in India about the problem of the noisy children in the flat above yours. I thought you would enjoy this post of Leo's - you could change 'writing and research' for 'meditation'. He might also be able to advise you on earplugs and soundproofing if you decide not to move! Leo: "Some time ago I was asking: what can I do with my room for more meditative condition. I was told that it should be empty and clean. Later, it was a talk on earplugs. I was reading and doing my research and I found it is very good idea to soundproof your room. There are many companies making soundproof boards and materials for schools, churches, businesses and so on. I found also some articles: how to soundproof your apartment. So I beleive it is very helpfull for meditation, where it can be together with some buddhist paintings and casinas." Metta, Sarah p.s my earplugs were a big success on the trip - but only for use with an i-pod or similar. ======= 52497 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:09am Subject: oops to Phil (was:Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 7, no 1.) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all From a post yest. --- sarah abbott wrote: > the right pariyatti (an oxymoron!) are very important. ... Pls ignore that moronic misuse of English....:-/ S. 52498 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Original Buddhist way leoaive Hi I am interested in Buddhism for many years. I was reading a lot. So I found, that Buddha suggested (when He was asked) to Paint a Buddha image on cloth or Fabric. That is the only way I have seen Buddha suggested by himeslf on Buddhist art. Now, after many years Buddhist monasteries do not have that way of art. Anything, but that. I would think it is nice to have it painted on canvas in a big way, and placed inside of a nice house or placed on a nice looking stand. I have a question: does anyone have seen a Monastery with Buddha painted on cloth? I would really appreciate if you would tell me about it. My main interest would be Theravada countries. With metta Leo 52499 From: s.billard@... Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Original Buddhist way sbillard2000 Hi Leo, >So I > found, that Buddha suggested (when He was asked) to Paint a Buddha > image on cloth or Fabric. That is the only way I have seen Buddha > suggested by himeslf on Buddhist art. Are you sure ? Could you give some reference to a sutta relating this event as I never heard of this. And history shows that at the beginning, buddhist art was aniconic, ie Buddha was represented only by symbols like umbrellas, footprints... It is only with contact with greek culture in 2cd and 3rd century (I am note sure of the date) that statues became to appear, in what is today Afghanistan (Gandhara, Kushan...) Now, after many years Buddhist > monasteries do not have that way of art. Anything, but that. I would > think it is nice to have it painted on canvas in a big way, and placed > inside of a nice house or placed on a nice looking stand. I have a > question: does anyone have seen a Monastery with Buddha painted on > cloth? Tibetan tangkas are painted on cloth, some example in Google image : Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >Glad to see you back with more ideas (and speculations). > > > >>Jon: >>Well thanks Tep, I'm glad you found it useful (although I didn't >>think I was saying anything that had not been said many times >>before ;-)). >> > >You might not have noticed the India-Phenomenon effect yet. :-)) > That must be it! >You wrote : "But until the latent tendency (anusaya) for a particular form >of akusala has been eradicated (by path consciousness of >one level or another), there is always the possibility of the arising of >another citta similar to the one that has fallen away." > >Let me name kusala citta "A", and akusala citta "B". So, so far we have >seen the sequence A,B. > So far we have mentioned akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) followed by kusala citta (wholesome consciousness). So in terms of your lettering above, the sequence would be B, A (not A, B). >Are you saying that the next citta might be B >again or A may come up, and that both events have an equal 50% >chance (probability)? > I would assume that whenever there is attachment for an object, there are in fact multiple moments of such attachment, not just a single moment, and that likewise when there is awareness/insight there are multiple moments of such awareness/insight (i.e. taking the same object). This would mean that where there is awareness of an unwholesome mind-state, there are multiple moments of kusala and akusala consciousness occurring interspersed with each other. However, I have no idea what the ratio of one to the other would be (I would imagine many moments of attachment to one of awareness/insight). (This is speaking in general terms. To be more precise, we would need to speak of processes of citta rather than individual moments of citta. Thus the sequence B, A discussed above would be a sequence of mind-door processes, not of individual mind-moments.) Jon 52501 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Sarah. jonoabb Hi Nina Good to see you back. Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Sarah, >Thank you, I also had to laugh. >Tell Jon that all my recordings are fine, there was another speed button at >the back of my recorder I had overlooked and when turning it, the speed is >fine. > Very glad to hear that you managed to resolve the problem. I'm sure it made a difference to your stay in India after the rest of the group had left. Jon 52502 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/16/05 2:07:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard &all, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > The Buddha did volitionally act, and those actions had > >consequences. > >In some technical sense, those actions were morally neutral or > >"functional", > >and they had no "kammic" consequences. I hypothesized that this means > >that that > >the Buddha's volitions, as all else pertaining to an arahant, were > >uninfected > >by the three poisons, which no longer arose, and that the consequences > >were > >not "kammic". > .... > S: OK, he’s released from the rounds of rebirth, not just in a ‘technical > sense’! ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, he is free of rebirth - in fact there is no sense any longer of a currently existing being. But that isn't what it means for kamma to be inoperative. In an arahant cetana still arises, and the actions following it serve as conditions for other phenomena. The question is what does it mean for that cetana to be "inoperative". ------------------------------------ > ... > >It is the matter of the "non-kammic" nature of the fruit > >of the > >functional actions of an arahant that I am asking about. > ... > S: There is no ‘fruit’ of these ‘functional actions’. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Using the terminology doesn't explain it, I'm afraid. The Buddha's actions all had consequences. What does it mean to say they bore no "fruit"? Their "bearing no fruit" has to have specific meaning. I conjectured that it means that there was no consequent morally positive or negative impact within the arahant's mindstream. Am I wrong? If yes, then what is right? ------------------------------------- I thought (possibly> > mistakenly) you were also referring to the effects on others, such as the > followers and the elephant, which of course are determined by our own > vipaka and accumulations largely. -------------------------------------- Howard: I would assume that the actions of an arahant on others is always "to the good". But, in any case, I was referring only to the matter of exactly what it means for volition to be "inoperative". --------------------------------------- > .... > >I hypothesized > >that > >this amounted to the kiriya kamma leaving no moral (positive or > >negative) imprint > >in an arahant's mindstream, but you seem to be saying that that's not > >it. > >Then what is it? That remains unclear. > .... > S: Just to clarify, cetana (intention) arises with every single citta and > ‘directs’ the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) and citta by way of > conascent kamma condition. This applies to all cittas, including those of > the arahant. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That doesn't clarify anything for me with regard to my question, Sarah. It just throws some irrelevant terminology at it. I'm sorry, but it's really off the point. ------------------------------------------- > > However, the kiriya (inoperative) cittas of the arahant which replace > kusala (wholesome) cittas in the javana process of the arahant are not > ‘kamma’ because they do not act as asynchronous kamma condition which > means as you say, that they cannot produce vipaka (fruit) of any kind. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, this seems like an answer but isn't. The mental actions of an arahant do have loads of consequences, which are "fruit". Looking at an arahant acting and seeing results follow from that acting appears no different from observing a worldling in action. The Buddha engaged in continual volitional activity of all sorts, and these activities had consequences as do the activities of worldlings. There must be a very specific sense in which the Buddha's mindstates were inoperative, but I haven't seen that sense explained yet. ------------------------------------------- > > These kiriya cittas and accompanying mental factors are still sobhana > (beautiful) however. They arise because of many conditions as usual, > especially by way of natural decisive support condition (accumulations) > and in turn act as conditions for further sobhana cittas to arise during > that life. Arahants are all different because of different vipaka cittas > experienced, different accumulations and so on. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Here you seem to be approaching an answer. But that hinted-at answer seems close to what I hypothesized, namely that an arahants cetana has no morally positive or negative impact within his/her mindstream. ------------------------------------------- > > For others, I’d just like to mention that the reason the texts refer to > sobhana cittas and cetasikas at all is because sobhana cetasikas don’t > only accompany kusala (wholesome) cittas, but also vipaka and kirya > cittas. It’a also true to say that even for arahants, all sobhana cittas > must be accompanied by alobha (non-attachment) and adosa (non-aversion), > but not always by amoha (wisdom). > > Here’s a brief quote from the Abhidamattha Sangaha (Narada transl): > > "17. Kiriya or Kriya, literally, means action. > Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action. Kamma is causally > effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective. Good deeds of Buddhas and > Arahats are called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as they > have gone beyond both good and evil. ----------------------------------------- Howard: The second and third of these sentences give no solution. The last sentence seem to accord with what I was guessing. ----------------------------------------- > In Abhidhamma vipaka and kiriya are collectively called avyakata > (Indeterminate), that which does not manifest itself in the way of an > effect. The former is avyakata, because it is an effect in itself, the > latter, because it does not produce an effect." ----------------------------------------- Howard: But the Buddha's actions all had effects. ------------------------------------------ > ..... > Hope this clarifies anything I said before. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The only clarification that I have seen is the slightly vague last sentence you quoted from the Abh. Sangaha: "Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahats are called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as they have gone beyond both good and evil." But on the basis of that I don't understand what you found deficient in my guessing "inoperative kamma" to be about. -------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 52503 From: s.billard@... Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:06am Subject: French translation again : Ditthadhamma Nibbana Vada sbillard2000 Hi all, I am finishing my translation of the Brahmajala Sutta, and would like to have your opinions on this part about the five wrong views (58 to 62) about realizing Nibbana here and now. An english version can be found here : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/theravada/brahma2.htm#16 Here is my translation : ______________________________________________ Il y a, moines, des ascètes et des brahmanes qui proclament que Nibbana est réalisable ici et maintenant par les êtres, et ce, de cinq façons différentes. Sur quelles bases ? Cinquante huitième vue fausse : Ici, un ascète ou un brahmane affirme et proclame cette doctrine : "Ce soi, ici et maintenant, jouit intégralement des 5 sortes de plaisirs sensuels. Ce soi a donc réalisé Nibbana ici et maintenant." Cinquante neuvième vue fausse : Un autre dit : "Ami, le soi que vous décrivez existe bien. Mais ce soi n'a pas atteint le plus haut Nibbana. Pourquoi ? Parce que les plaisirs sensuels sont impermanents, douloureux, et sujets au changement. De cette instabilité naîssent l'affliction, la douleur, la détresse. Mais quand ce soi, détaché des plaisirs des sens, détaché des états malsains, atteint et demeure dans le premier jhana, qui s'accompagne de l'absorption, du ravissement, et de la joie nés du détachement, c'est alors qu'il réalise le plus haut Nibbana." C'est ainsi que certains proclament la réalisation de Nibbana ici et maintenant. Soixantième vue fausse : Un autre dit : "Ami, le soi que vous décrivez existe bien. Mais ce soi n'a pas atteint le plus haut Nibbana. Pourquoi ? Parce que le premier jhana ne fait pas disparaître la pensée discursive. C'est donc encore un état grossier. Mais quand ce soi, délaissant la pensée discursive, atteint et demeure dans le second jhana, qui s'accompagne de la tranquillité intérieure, de l'absorption complète de l'esprit, du ravissement et de la joie, c'est alors qu'il réalise le plus haut Nibbana." C'est ainsi que certains proclament la réalisation de Nibbana ici et maintenant. Soixante et unième vue fausse : Un autre dit : "Ami, le soi que vous décrivez existe bien. Mais ce soi n'a pas atteint le plus haut Nibbana. Pourquoi ? Parce que le second jhana ne fait pas disparaître le ravissement. C'est donc encore un état grossier. Mais quand ce soi, délaissant le ravissement, s'installe dans l'équanimité, atteint et demeure dans le troisième jhana, pleinement conscient, experimentant le bien-être physique et mental décrit par les nobles, c'est alors qu'il réalise le plus haut Nibbana." C'est ainsi que certains proclament la réalisation de Nibbana ici et maintenant. Soixante deuxième vue fausse : "Ami, le soi que vous décrivez existe bien. Mais ce soi n'a pas atteint le plus haut Nibbana. Pourquoi ? Parce que l'esprit éprouve encore de la joie. C'est donc encore un état grossier. Mais quand ce soi, délaissant douleur et plaisir, délaissant joie et peine, s'installe et demeure dans le quatrième jhana, pleinement conscient et equanime, c'est alors qu'il réalise le plus haut Nibbana." C'est ainsi que certains proclament la réalisation de Nibbana ici et maintenant. Voici donc les cinq façons par lesquelles ces ascètes et brahmanes proclament la réalisation de Nibbana ici et maintenant. ______________________________________________ Thanks ! Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52504 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Howard, Htoo, Steve, and Swee) - > > I appreciate the message # 52427 that provides a Web link to an > important article written by an exceptional monk who knows what jhana > means, Mahathera Henepola Gunaratana. > > Now I have only two questions for you to consider. > > 1. Is your own meditative experience with respect to "jhana > phenomena" (e.g. nimitta and jhana factors) in good agreement with > the author? If not, then please briefly describe the major difference. > > 2. What is your opinion about the Venerable Buddhaghosa's > explanations on jhana as related to the anapanasati kammatthana in > Chapter VIII, the Visuddhimagga ? > > Thank you in advance. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Matheesha and all, Interesting. I will go there to message 52427 and then I will see what are written there. But I think at least I have read it once long time ago. With Metta, Htoo Naing 52505 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39am Subject: Phil's abhidhamma Qus (was Re: One Month Absence) philofillet Hi Sarah, Charles and all > Also, Phil, before I forget, thanks for sharing the summary of your cute > story. Best wishes for it in the competition. Thanks, Sarah. I did make the deadline, quite satisfied with the story, my first attempt at writing in Japanese. And you know, something interesting is happening. Keen on studying Japanese again, writing - conditioned by entering that contest, I guess. So I'm having trouble to find time to write here! Sorry if I can't get back to your posts, and Charles' for the time being. It does seem that my interest in Dhamma has cooled suddenly. No, not that, still listening to the talks and studying a couple of suttas every day, reading "Cetasikas" - but I seem to be out of the discussing mode. Nothing to do with the issues I raised a few weeks back, just not happening right now. But still listening and reading and I'm sure I'll be babbling away again before I know it! :) Thanks for the feedback. Points well taken. I'll write back on it as soon as I am in the discussion mode again. Phil > > 52506 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation htootintnaing Dear Matheesha, Tep, Howard and all, Thanks Tep for inclusion of my name in this thread. Otherwise I will miss Matheesha's post. Because of Tep, I read Tep message and noticed that mesage 52427 should be read. Now I read it. It is good. No comments as it is almost perfect. Especially writing on mastery. When I wrote on mastery my English words seemed awkward, I think. I am not good at English. I have read mastery in jhaana elsewhere. Because of my wide reading on jhaana English terms come to me much more easily than before. As Matheesha wrote (or Original writer wrote) there are 5 mastery in jhaana. This is what the Buddha taught, I think. They are mastery in adverting (aavajjana vasibhuutam), mastery in attainment (samaapajjana vasibhuutam), mastery in resolution in remaining in jhaana as predetermined (adhitthaana vasibhuutam), mastery in ability of emerging from jhaana at will (vuthaana vasibhuutam), and mastery in retrospection (paccavakkhana vasibhuutam). [a is a short vowl where aa is a long vowel, u is a short-uu is a long, i is a short, ii is a long, e is a long vowel unless immediately followed by double consonents like tt, tth, kk, kkh, gg, ggh,cc, cch, jj, jjh, dd, ddh, pp, pph, bb, bbh, ss] When one once achieves jhaana it is easier to enter jhaana than before. There is automatic shut down of sensory doors. There is time delay. For me that delay is very very hard to detect. Before actually shut down the 5 doors are open even though the mind is on mind door at the object of meditation. But when not in jhaana that calm state can be distracted by outisde 5-sense doors by 5-sense objects at least a few moments if one has mastered in jhaana. But once sink in or absorbed in jhaana there is auto-shut down and even thunder storm will not be heard. There was an occasion that The Buddha did not hear such as He was in 4th jhaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > These things might sound fantastical but anyone who sets out to do > this can do it. It takes determination and every one who has that can > do it. Lay people can most definitely do it. I've had many friends > achieving these states and they are not anything magical. All of them > work and practice and have families. > > Howard, please ask any question/clarifications if you have any. I > hope that was useful to you. > > metta > > Matheesha > 52507 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:34am Subject: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Questions about the Cula-suññata Sutta (The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness; MN 121) Dear all This morning I wrote to Sukin: "… anicca; that's what really inspires me to be a Buddhist. 'Anicca' combined with 'emptiness' as described in MN 121 by the Buddha." This has to do with a discussion some month ago about the use of the term emptiness in Theravada. We found two aspects: - Emptiness as a way of expressing anatta and anicca (some people emphasis on anatta and some, like me, on anicca) - Emptiness as a resulting state of a immaterial sphere jhana (The base of nothingness; akincannayatana) This week I have been reading the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121). In most Suttas about jhana the Buddha explicit uses the term 'jhana'. But not in this one. So my question is: Is this Sutta about 'contemplating' emptiness, that is reading and thinking about the text again and again, being in a (daily life) state and in this way understanding emptiness better and better? Or is the Buddha describing formal meditation, especially jhanic one, reaching "the base of nothingness"? Especially my question to the DSG-participants who are not doing formal meditation: how do you contemplate this Sutta? Below a part of the Sutta in a translation of by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (in fact I studied not this one but the new dutch translation) Metta Joop MN 121 Cula-suññata Sutta The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness transl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "… Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness -- the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk -- not attending to the perception (mental note) of village, not attending to the perception of human being -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness. … Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so -- without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth -- he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. … "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of wilderness, not attending to the perception of earth -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space. … "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of earth, not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of the dimension of nothingness. … "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness -- attends to the singleness based on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. … "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness. … "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareess. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness. "He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him -- thus knowing, thus seeing -- the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure -- superior & unsurpassed. "Ananda, whatever contemplatives and priests who in the past entered & remained in an emptiness that was pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all entered & remained in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and priests who in the future will enter & remain in an emptiness that will be pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all will enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and priests who at present enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. "Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'" 52508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nilovg Hi Charles D, I would say that the second and third noble Truths are explained by D.O. Bhikkhu Bodhi in his intro to d.O.: Nina. op 15-11-2005 20:59 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > YES, YES (very good point :-); but is DO a Noble Truth? 52509 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] photos nilovg Hi Sarah and Sukin, lovely. Enjoyed looking at them as slides with Lodewijk. Nina. op 16-11-2005 09:19 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Nina, i know you're not very interested in photos, but Lodewijk is, I > think. This is a link Sukin gave to some of K.Foo's photos: > http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/album?.dir=8f04&.src=ph > &store=&prodid=&.done=http 52510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] loving kindness in other way nilovg Hi Sarah and Leo, making boards is too complicated. We will ask them to remove their boots when jumping around. But now it is somewhat better. We helped them when they forgot their key and we offered them hospitality when waiting for the technician, playing music for them. But we did not mention the problem. Nina. op 16-11-2005 09:44 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > By the way, Nina, you were talking before on list and to me in India about > the problem of the noisy children in the flat above yours. I thought you > would enjoy this post of Leo's - you could change 'writing and research' > for 'meditation'. He might also be able to advise you on earplugs and > soundproofing if you decide not to move! 52511 From: nina Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Dhamma Discussion in Hotel Sofitel, Phnom Penh (I) Sujin: When paññå of the degree of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna arises, it arises even against our expectations. We should not think ahead of time that it should arise in a moment, very soon. This is wrong, because the development of paññå must be with detachment. If desire slips in, we are not on the right way and we shall not reach the goal. The right way, the development of paññå, is very intricate, very subtle. As has been appropriately stated in the scriptures: it is difficult to understand the four noble Truths because they are profound. For the development of satipatthåna, we should not sit and think of getting hold of sati in order to ³use² it. We cannot ³use² paññå, but there should be correct understanding from the beginning, from now on. This understanding is included in the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha, which forms up conditions for the arising of sammåsati that is aware of realities. When one touches things which are hard during the day there is no sati, because one has the notion of touching things such as a table. But when we have listened to the Dhamma we understand that hardness is only a kind of reality. If we often listen and have more understanding, there can be firm saññå, we can remember that everything is dhamma, reality, and this is the first level of understanding. We should not forget that everything is dhamma. If we do not forget this, there are conditions for the arising of sati that is aware of the reality of hardness, odour or other dhammas. It depends on conditions whether sati arises and is aware of realities. When sati arises it can be aware precisely of a characteristic of the dhamma that we used to take for something hard. When there is awareness, paññå can know that this is only a kind of dhamma, and that the element that experiences hardness is not self. However, before we can know that it is an element that experiences, not self, we should develop paññå for a long time until there is no longer the concept of the whole world that we used to have. Then only the element that experiences remains, and this is the characteristic of nåma that is not blended or mixed with rúpa. Nåma dhamma is the reality that can know everything. From birth to death there is nåma dhamma, at every moment. When sati arises we can gradually begin to understand the characteristics of rúpa dhamma and nåma dhamma which we used to know from listening to the Dhamma and from the study of the different texts of the scriptures. When we are aware of the realities that are appearing we shall begin to understand the characteristic of rúpa and the characteristic of nåma. Sati is aware, not because we cause its arising or do something special to induce it. We should understand that each life is citta, cetasika and rúpa. When sati is aware and there is gradually more understanding, little by little, satipaììhåna develops, so that one day insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna, can arise. This kind of paññå can penetrate the true nature of the characteristics of nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma, without there being concepts of people and things blended in. The element that experiences appears through the mind-door. At the moments of insight knowledge nothing else exists but the element that experiences, nåma dhamma, and rúpa dhamma, and these appear one at a time. ****** Nina. 52512 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:22pm Subject: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Goenka and Vedana] matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: I think that the main benefit in emphasizing > mindfulness of bodily sensation is that such sensation is less likely than feelings, > mental states, emotions, and thinking to be identified as me or mine, and is less > likely in general to be overlaid by conceptualization. M: Good one Howard. I see that you are right. I also think that it is easier to be sensed as well compared to others, as it is more gross. It was suggested that mindfulness of body is mentioned first as it is easier to be felt, moving on to vedana which would be a bit harder and then mindfulness of citta which is even more and so on. The order of the foundations reflecting the growing faculty (indriya) of Sati/mindfulness in the practitioner. metta Matheesha 52513 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:36am Subject: New Site: http://What-Buddha-Said.net bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Friends: On this full moon day, where the Buddha introduced the meditation method of awareness by breathing it is verily a serene bliss to cordially invite you to & thereby declare for officially quite open this new Saddhamma Website: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/ For the gladdening of good people & benefit of all beings, the intention is here to publish a free & fresh translation of everything the Blessed Buddha actually said & included in the now more than 2500 years old sacred and classical Buddhist Scripture Collection: The Tipitaka, which extends to ~40 volumes & is explained in ~60 vols. of commentary! The useful High-Lights so far must be: The Main Meditation Manual: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm Who & Where in Buddhism: Dictionary of Pali Proper Names http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/index_dict.ppn.htm The Handbook of Buddhist Philosophy: Buddhist Dictionary http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/index_dict.n2.htm Dhammapada: The Right Way: 427 poems by the Buddha http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm Drops of Dhamma Delight: Inspirational Vignettes http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Index.Dhamma.Drops.htm Buddhist Images: Sacred pilgrim places & people http://What-Buddha-Said.net/images/Dhamma_Images.htm What-Buddha-Said Bulletin Board: Pure Theravada http://what-buddha-said.net/bulletin/ Current Site Summary: Files: 6.903 Pictures: 2.271 Internal Links: 100.873 External Links: 5.032 Please enjoy your advantageous interest & study! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52514 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:33am Subject: How to be a True Buddhist on Anapanasati Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, & with clean bare feet, one first bows three times at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one kneels and recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts... Then, one keeps these sacred vows better than one protects one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study & fulfilled by practicing Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I..." signed with name, date, town & country to me. I have put up a public list of this newly born Saddhamma Sangha here! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <.....> 52515 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Goenka and Vedana matheesha333 Hi Larry, L: Feeling arises with every consciousness. It is classified as mental > feeling and bodily feeling. Bodily feeling arises only with body > consciousness, not eye-consciousness etc., in the abhidhamma > classification. Only neutral feeling arises with eye-, ear-, tongue- , > nose-consciousness. Body consciousness arises with painful or pleasant > feeling. Love and hate arise with pleasant or painful feeling. Hi Larry, I thought I would post the below sutta as it was fairly short and covers the whole issue. Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.22 Atthasatapariyaya Sutta One Hundred Eight Feelings Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera. For free distribution only. From Contemplation of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303), translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright © 1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "I shall show you, O monks, a way of Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight (feelings). Hence listen to me. "In one way, O monks, I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of three, five, six, eighteen, thirty six and one hundred and eight feelings. "What are the two feelings? Bodily and mental feelings. "What are the three feelings? Pleasant, painful and neither-painful- nor-pleasant feelings. "What are the five feelings? The faculties of pleasure, pain, gladness, sadness and equanimity. "What are the six feelings? The feelings born of sense-impression through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. "What are the eighteen feelings? There are the (above) six feelings by which there is an approach (to the objects) in gladness; and there are six approaches in sadness and there are six approaches in equanimity. "What are the thirty six feelings? There are six feelings of gladness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of sadness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of equanimity based on the household life and six based on renunciation. "What are the hundred and eight feelings? There are the (above) thirty six feelings of the past; there are thirty six of the future and there are thirty six of the present. "These, O monks, are called the hundred and eight feelings; and this is the way of the Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight feelings." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Tuesday 2005-11-15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-022.html L: If you > look carefully you will see that you can locate this feeling in the body > even though feeling that accompanies a root consciousness is classified > as a mental feeling. M: Yes, I agree. But there is no physical organ or thing which represents that feeling. Thoughts can be felt inside the head. Yet we do not think of them as part of the body. I guess this goes deeper to the fact that all we have to do is see impermanence of phenomana arising and passing away, no matter what they are. metta Matheesha 52516 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana matheesha333 Hi Tep, Thank you for taking me back to to MN149. It was wonderful to read it. The Buddha talks of an arahath and how calm and insight has been developed by him. But more to your point is the yuganadda sutta: Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutta ra/an04-170.html ------------------------------- M: I believe these 4 methods are in order. The first being the best. But then I might be biased! It clearly says that calm and insight can be developed together. There is a sutta where the Buddha desribes anapanasathi where there is consideration (noting) of other things which arise as well, unlike in the anapanasathi sutta. This would be close to developing both together I think. But the reason I favour the first method is that there is certain clash in the two methods of calm and insight. Calm requires one pointdenss, while insight requires being aware of everything in the present moment. So mixing the two IMO leads to both being developed slowly. I think if we seperate the two we can do both much efficiently. When you have weeks running into months and months running into years, you begin to see the importance of such things. There is a samadhi sutta which describes seeing the five aggregates arising and passing away under Samadhi (the other 3 types of samadhi are jhana, perception of light etc). We might bundle this under insight now though. But even watching dhammas arising and passing away requires concentration and one-pointdness of some degree. But the basic idea of sati leading to samadhi is universal. Sati can be on one point or several. So even vipassana done for a long period of time IMO should lead to jhana and fits in with the noble eightfold path stepwise progression. metta Matheesha 52517 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana matheesha333 Hi Smallchap, If you dont mind me asking, what has your experiences been like? Please feel free not to answer if you dont wish to. metta Matheesha 52518 From: "smallchap" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Matheesha, I have no jhanic experience. smallchap 52519 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. philofillet Hello Nina and all I am feeling in a question asking mode these days rather than discussing/speculating. I'll try to keep them brief. > Sujin: When paññ?Eof the degree of insight knowledge, vipassan?Eñå na arises, > it arises even against our expectations. When it arises, must is it always be that first "tender" insight, knowing nama from rupa? (nama-rupa-pariccheda nnana) I found this in the Appendix 9 of Vetasikas. Now I see in the index that there is more detail on p.326. I will read it. But it is still a good question to ask. And I know I've asked you this before, but I forget, sorry. Why is the word "tender" used? (long snip) > However, before we can know that it is an element that experiences, not > self, we should develop paññ?Efor a long time until there is no longer the > concept of the whole world that we used to have. Then only the element that > experiences remains, and this is the characteristic of nåma that is not > blended or mixed with rúpa. I find this a bit confusing. I would have thought that until we "know that it is an element that experiences, not self" (ie until we reach the stage of insight described above) any panna that we develop will not be of the degree that can lead to "there is no longer the concept of the whole world that we used to have...then only the element that experiences remains..." This "develop panna for a long time..." - it is pariyatti, right? Can it be said that through pariyatti "there is no longer the concept of the whole world that we used to have?" Sorry if that/those are confusing questions. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Phil 52520 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Vism.XIV,199 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 199. (a) 'According to kind', firstly: unprofitable feeling is a state of disquiet, because it is the cause of reprehensible actions and because it produces burning of defilement, so it is 'gross' [compared] with profitable feeling. And because it is accompanied by interestedness and drive and result, and because of the burning of the defilements, and because it is reprehensible, it is gross compared with resultant indeterminate. Also because it is accompanied by result, because of the burning of the defilements, and because it is attended by affliction and is reprehensible, it is gross compared with functional indeterminate. But in the opposite sense profitable and indeterminate feeling are subtle compared with unprofitable feeling. Also the two, that is, profitable and unprofitable feeling, involve interestedness, drive and result, so they are respectively gross compared with the twofold indeterminate. And in the opposite sense the twofold indeterminate is subtle compared with them. This, firstly, is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to kind. ********************* 199. jaativasena taava akusalaa vedanaa saavajjakiriyahetuto, kilesasantaapabhaavato ca avuupasantavuttiiti kusalavedanaaya o.laarikaa, sabyaapaarato, saussaahato, savipaakato, kilesasantaapabhaavato, saavajjato ca vipaakaabyaakataaya o.laarikaa, savipaakato, kilesasantaapabhaavato, sabyaabajjhato, saavajjato ca kiriyaabyaakataaya o.laarikaa. kusalaabyaakataa pana vuttavipariyaayato akusalaaya sukhumaa. dvepi kusalaakusalavedanaa sabyaapaarato, saussaahato, savipaakato ca yathaayoga.m duvidhaayapi abyaakataaya o.laarikaa , vuttavipariyaayena duvidhaapi abyaakataa taahi sukhumaa. eva.m taava jaativasena o.laarikasukhumataa veditabbaa. 52521 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi joop, >J: This week I have been reading the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121). In > most Suttas about jhana the Buddha explicit uses the term 'jhana'. > But not in this one. > > So my question is: > Is this Sutta about 'contemplating' emptiness, that is reading and > thinking about the text again and again, being in a (daily life) > state and in this way understanding emptiness better and better? > Or is the Buddha describing formal meditation, especially jhanic one, > reaching "the base of nothingness"? M: Yes, it is interesting that he doesnt use the word jhana. Equally interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina to arupa (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that this is possible. I think he is talking of the jhanas because the immaterial (arupa) jhanas are mentioned in order, and also because he speaks of animitta (signless) concentration ('without a theme'). He seems to be speaking of the mind of an arahath at the end and the emptiness he enjoys. Gave me goosebumps! metta Matheesha 52522 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation matheesha333 Hi Jon, Hey, I was just trying to discuss the Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta and the > meaning you attributed to it! I would like to think we could have a > discussion about the teachings without you pulling rank on me ;-)) M: I'm sorry about not replying sooner, but I genuinely believe that it is not useful to either one of us to discuss the dhamma in this rather adversarial atmosphere. At the very least it doesnt do my mind any good so I 'd rather not. If you really want to you might be able to see what im saying in the post. But going head to head just sends me in the opposite direction from where i want to go in this path, even though it might be culturally appropriate for you to approach it in that fashion. Thats not why im here. Once again, im sorry, but i rather not. metta Matheesha 52523 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:19pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (Attn. Htoo, Howard, Swee, and Jon) - Thank you for your comments on MN 149 and AN IV.170 (Yuganadda Sutta). >Math : Thank you for taking me back to to MN149. It was wonderful to read it. The Buddha talks of an arahath and how calm and insight has been developed by him. Tep: The sutta MN 149 indicates that when the eight Path factors are fully developed, then samatha and vipassana are yoked together in tandem. How are the Eightfold Path factors developed? They are developed by the meditator's successful dwelling "uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused" on the drawbacks of the sensing faculties. After having acquired those qualities, his/her "bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned", and the meditator is then "sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness". As the consequence, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas go to "the culmination of their development" in him/her. That is when both tranquillity and insight occur in tandem! I agree with you that the final result like that is beyond most meditators, including myself :-)). However, samatha & vipassana of lower quality can be acquired by us by switching between calm and insight as often as we possibly can during any given day. Indeed, as explained in Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.10, the "direct meditation" is samatha, and the "undirected meditation" (that is based on satipatthana) is clearly vipassana. ............................. >Math. : Calm requires one pointednss, while insight requires being aware of everything in the present moment. So mixing the two IMO leads to both being developed slowly. I think if we seperate the two we can do both much efficiently. Tep: I am not clear why the switching between calm and insight may slow down the progress, or why it is less efficient than doing samatha only. A question is : samatha until when, then vipassana? For example, suppose the meditator is able to attain only the first jhana no matter how many years he has tried. Can he not proceed to vipassana? ........................... >Math: There is a samadhi sutta which describes seeing the five aggregates arising and passing away under Samadhi (the other 3 types of samadhi are jhana, perception of light etc). We might bundle this under insight now though. But even watching dhammas arising and passing away requires concentration and one-pointedness of some degree. But the basic idea of sati leading to samadhi is universal. Sati can be on one point or several. So even vipassana done for a long period of time IMO should lead to jhana and fits in with the noble eightfold path stepwise progression. Tep: I am afraid that I am not following you very well here. What do you mean by bundling the contemplation of the "five aggregates arising and passing away" under insight? This is what I understand. The "one-pointedness of some degree" is a samatha, and the "watching dhammas arising and passing away" is a vipassana. Now, when the meditator's mind becomes distracted during the "dhamma watching", don't you agree that he/she should establish "one-pointedness" again by a direct meditation scheme before switching back to vipassana over and over during a day? This switching tactic, because it can continue in the non-stop fashion, should be helpful for developing the Eightfold Path factors until they become matured. Why? Because, by virtues of the meditation scheme like this, he/she would become "uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on" the drawbacks of the sensing faculties (as stated in MN 149). Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > There is a samadhi sutta which describes seeing the five aggregates > arising and passing away under Samadhi (the other 3 types of samadhi > are jhana, perception of light etc). We might bundle this under > insight now though. But even watching dhammas arising and passing > away requires concentration and one-pointdness of some degree. But the basic idea of sati leading to samadhi is universal. Sati can be > on one point or several. So even vipassana done for a long period of > time IMO should lead to jhana and fits in with the noble eightfold > path stepwise progression. > 52524 From: Alan McAllister Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana drampsych Sorry to interrupt with, perhaps, a naive question re: > >Math. : Calm requires one pointednss, while insight requires being aware of everything in the present moment. I was taught that vipassana requires one-pointed concentration as much as samatha, it is just that one attends to the predominant object until it disappears or a stronger object comes along. I am puzzled by the idea that you can be "aware of everything in the present moment" since I thought it was only possible to attend to one object at a time. Alan McAllister 52525 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for the interesting ideas you introduced. > >Tep: > >You wrote : "But until the latent tendency (anusaya) for a particular form of akusala has been eradicated (by path consciousness of one level or another), there is always the possibility of the arising of another citta similar to the one that has fallen away." > > > >Let me name kusala citta "A", and akusala citta "B". So, so far we have seen the sequence A,B. > > > Jon: > So far we have mentioned akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) followed by kusala citta (wholesome consciousness). So in terms of your lettering above, the sequence would be B, A (not A, B). > Tep: You're right. I am sorry for the error. ................................. > > Tep: > >Are you saying that the next citta might be B again or A may come up, and that both events have an equal 50% > >chance (probability)? > > > Jon: > I would assume that whenever there is attachment for an object, there are in fact multiple moments of such attachment, not just a single moment, and that likewise when there is awareness/insight there are multiple moments of such awareness/insight (i.e. taking the same object). Tep: How may such assumption be useful for developing panna for eradication of the latent tendency (anusaya)? .......................................... >Jon: > This would mean that where there is awareness of an unwholesome mind-state, there are multiple moments of kusala and akusala > consciousness occurring interspersed with each other. However, I have no idea what the ratio of one to the other would be (I would imagine many moments of attachment to one of awareness/insight). > Tep: I think such a random mixing of multiple akusala moments with kusala moments is distracting and may be causing moha, not panna. Besides, I am not clear as to how the multiple moments of akusaka/kusala may relate to causation of the latent tendency . .................... > Jon: > (This is speaking in general terms. To be more precise, we would need to speak of processes of citta rather than individual moments of citta. Thus the sequence B, A discussed above would be a sequence of mind-door processes, not of individual mind-moments.) > Tep: I would be very interested in your further discussion of the mind- door processes for the purpose of developing panna for eradication of the latent tendency. :-) Warm regards, Tep ========== 52526 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Alan (and Matheesha) - I am glad that you jumped into the swimming pool with me and Matheesha ! >Alan: > Sorry to interrupt with, perhaps, a naive question re: > > >Math. : Calm requires one pointednss, while insight requires being aware of everything in the present moment. > > I was taught that vipassana requires one-pointed concentration as much as samatha, it is just that one attends to the predominant object until it disappears or a stronger object comes along. I am puzzled by the idea that you can be "aware of everything in the present moment" since I thought it was only possible to attend to one object at a time. > If I had to answer your comment, I would say that "everything" here means the body, feeling, mind (citta), and mind-object(dhamma) -- one at a time as the object of sati. Please correct me if I was wrong. Warm regards, Tep ========= 52527 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote : > Htoo: > Dear Tep, Matheesha and all, > > Interesting. I will go there to message 52427 and then I will see > what are written there. But I think at least I have read it once long > time ago. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > I am pleased that I got your attention. Regards, Tep ========== 52528 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - You wrote : > > Thanks Tep for inclusion of my name in this thread. Otherwise I will > miss Matheesha's post. Because of Tep, I read Tep message and noticed that mesage 52427 should be read. Now I read it. It is good. No comments as it is almost perfect. > Tep: You are very welcome ! I just thought that if you could become involved, then the discussion would be more interesting. > Htoo: > There is automatic shut down of sensory doors. There is time delay. > For me that delay is very very hard to detect. Before actually shut > down the 5 doors are open even though the mind is on mind door at the object of meditation. ... ... > Tep: That automatic shut-down: are you talking about "life continuum" during absorption, or something else? How does such a time delay occur? Respectfully, Tep ============ 52529 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:15pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 312 - Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [f] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Stinginess Stinginess or avarice, macchariya, is another akusala cetasika which can arise with dosa-múla-citta. It does not arise with every dosa-múla-citta, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-múla-citta. When there is stinginess there is also aversion towards the object which is experienced at that moment and the feeling is unpleasant feeling. Stinginess cannot arise with lobha-múla-citta or with mohamúla-citta. The Atthasåliní (II, Book I, Part IX, Chapter II, 257) gives the following definition of avarice (meanness): * "It has, as characteristic, the concealing of one’s property, either attained or about to be attained; the not enduring the sharing of one’s property in common with others, as function; the shrinking from such sharing or niggardliness or sour feeling as manifestation; one’s own property as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as mental ugliness." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 173) gives a similar definition. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52530 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goenka and Vedana lbidd2 Hi Matheesha, A few comments below: L: "If you look carefully you will see that you can locate this feeling in the body even though feeling that accompanies a root consciousness is classified as a mental feeling." M: "Yes, I agree. But there is no physical organ or thing which represents that feeling. Thoughts can be felt inside the head. Yet we do not think of them as part of the body." Larry: I don't know about feeling thoughts (I would rather say thoughts are accompanied by feeling and sometimes reciprocal body sensations arise), but I agree feeling is nama, not rupa. What makes it so interesting is that feeling seems to be intimately associated with body. Because of this unusual relationship, curiosity is stimulated and a closer investigation is invited. This ultimately leads to the discovery that feeling is an evanescent, empty phenomenon. Not only is what we crave (pleasant feeling) empty of any graspable reality; what we fear (pain) is also empty. Ironically, we discover this ungraspable nature _in_ the body; the last place one would expect. Larry 52531 From: "wchangli" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8 wchangli Hi Tep, could you help .... Nina, thanks your words. warmest regards, Li --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Li, > please would you ask one of the Pali experts on the Pali list? > Those sentences are not easy. > Tep could explain to you about the meaning of the long breath, he made > studies of this subject. > I have the Co. to the Patisambidha in Thai, but now I have great lack of > time. > Nina. > op 13-11-2005 14:40 schreef wchangli op wchangli@y...: > > > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as stated > > below: > > > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, aapaanan¡¦ > > ti vutta.m. > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa > > pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > > > 52532 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana mr39515 Dear Alan Hi there... There are 2 types of meditation with 2 objective: 1. Samatha Meditation (uses the 40 Objects) 2. Satipatana or Vipassana (uses the 4 station of mindfulness) The objective of samatha meditation is to attain one-pointedness or Jhana. The objective of Vipassana is to attain insigth and Nibbana. So I think the question come about "What is Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi)?" It is the last of the 8 fold path (the 4th Noble Truth). Right Concentration is: 1. When Concentration arises with Right Mindfulness and 2. Action done without Greed, Harted, Delusion Before we actually understand Right Concentration, we also need to know what is wrong concentration which is: 1. When one focus on one object to see reality 2. When one's action is done with Greed, Hatred and Delusion. I guess one must choose one path whether one wants Onepointedness or Insight and that would determine the type of meditation (either Samatha or Vipassana). To achieve onepointedness, Samatha meditation uses Fix Concentration and Access Conccentration on one of the 40 object following the path below: 1. Vitakka (Applied Thoughts) 2. Vicara (Sustained thoughts) 3. Piti (joy) 4. Sukkha (Happiness) 5. One-pointedness Only then when one attain 0nepointedness, one attain 1st Jhana. The one must come back to the object and start from 2 to 5 to attain 2nd Jhana and so on. However Satipatana or Vipassana uses the 4 station of mindfulness which uses a different type of concentration. We uses Momentary Concentration (Khanika). The objects of meditation changes as they arises thru the 6 doors. There is no one fix object like in samatha meditation thus we can NOT attain one-pointedness or Jhana. Vipassana do NOT meant to see calmness as the object changes all the time. However the advantage of vipassana is that we can see things as they truely are, the ultimate reality and that the deep nature of all phenomena as Anicca, Dukha, Anatta. The 4 station of mindfulness are: 1. Kayanupassana (Awareness of body) 2. Vedanupassana (Awareness of feeling) 3. Cittanupasana (Awareness of Conscious) 4. Dhammanupasana(Awareness of Mental Object). In fact 8 fold path starts with Right View and ends with Right concentration which required Right mindfulness. Follow this path is one wanted insight or enlightenment. Follow samatha if one wanted calmness and onepointedness or Jhana. Having said this, I would like to hilite that both samatha and vipassana is MAHA kusala even both leads one to different path and different attainment. Choose well.... in or out of samsara..... Metta mr39515 --- Alan McAllister wrote: > Sorry to interrupt with, perhaps, a naive question > re: > > >Math. : Calm requires one pointednss, while > insight requires being aware of everything in the > present moment. > > I was taught that vipassana requires one-pointed > concentration as much as samatha, it is just that > one attends to the predominant object until it > disappears or a stronger object comes along. I am > puzzled by the idea that you can be "aware of > everything in the present moment" since I thought it > was only possible to attend to one object at a > time. > > Alan McAllister <...> 52533 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Original Buddhist way leoaive Hi I was reading many literature on India and history of different religions and life there. I wish I would have that. If somehow I will find it, I will let you know. The only thing I defenetly remember, that was in India and It was belonging to Buddha time. I have seen also some article in Trycicle magazine around 3 month ago and it was saying about that originally it was all painted. I guess all other art, is designed for those who like to paint and wish to see different references what to avoid some things when painting. Also, I went to different indian stores in Southern California, and I have seen that indians are selling some big cotton cloth with Buddha on it. It was not done really in supreme way, but at least it was. If you are in California, let me know, I will give you directions to that store. With metta Leo 52534 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:14pm Subject: Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Hi Charles D, It's good to see all your posts....I know how difficult it is for you to write during the week. --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > I once said, "I like that name." Still don't know why?? ... S: :-) Who can ever know how lobha makes its selections... ... > C: ... how can trees not exist and anger do exist? ... S: as I go on to say.... > > S: When you touch a tree, what is experienced? When you look out of a > window, what is seen? > > C: When I touch a tree thoughts are experienced (impulses as thoughts), > and > a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I think you are > looking for are the labels: "rough hardness." ... S: No, I'm not looking for labels but to determine whether there is any 'tree' experienced other than as visible object, hardness etc and then thinking about these various experiences with ideas of a tree. .... > > S: On the other hand, when you're mad, what is experienced? > > C: The same goes for "mad" -- thoughts are experienced (impulses as > thoughts), and a lot depends on what the other senses are doing. But I > think > you are looking for is the label: "anger." .... S: OK, when there's anger, it has its very own characteristic or nature, regardless of whether there's any thinking about it before or after and no matter what thoughts there are. This is irrespective of the label 'anger'. We could call it anything. ... > C: What makes hardness real and not tree? Is it because you consider > tactile input real and not visual input? ... S: Both tactile input and visual input are real. But what is visual input? Isn't visual input merely visual input or visible data? When we think we see a tree or a person, aren't these concepts or thoughts about the visual input? .... >Wait; is your problem really > with > the label (e.g., "tree") and not the object itself? If so, then keep in > mind that "hardness" is also a word or label used for communicating some > point, or an idea we have on account of what is touched and remembered. ... S: So forgetting about any labels, what is experienced through 'touch' like now or through 'sight' like now seems to be a computer keyboard, but really what is experienced is the sensory object through the body-sense and the visual object through the eye-sense. The rest are ideas about these sense objects surely? > > .................................................... > S: All 'existence' is a 'mixture' of namas (those 'mental' qualities > which > can experience objects and rupas (those 'physical' qualities which can > never > experience objects). > > C: I am not sure what you mean here, but does it relate to > consciousness? > Or are you trying to say that sensory input is the only reality? .... S: There is the consciousness such as seeing experience or touching experience or thinking experience (namas) and there is the sensory input we've just discussed such as tangible object or visible object (rupas). These exist and can be known. Trees and computers are ideas and in an ultimate sense, such ideas do not exist. This is a very good discussion. Let's continue. Thanks, Charles Metta, Sarah p.s I've changed the subject heading as recommended by Joop:-) ======= 52535 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:21pm Subject: New to the Dhamma (was:Re: kamma and its cessation) sarahprocter... Hi Siddhu --- Siddharth Kamble wrote: > > > > Thank you for mail. I am very poor in Dhamma. It will take time to > interact on the subject. > > > > siddhu nagpur ... S: Nina already briefly welcomed you. Don't worry about how poor you are in Dhamma. We're all beginners here and appreciate any basic questions which are often the best. Take your time and how about starting by introducing a little more about yourself and your background? Also, I recommend you go to 'useful posts' in the files section (left side on home page) and scroll down to 'New to the list and new to Dhamma'. If you click on the numbers, you'll be taken to several messages which have good recommendations for friends like yourself. You'll also see there is a simple Pali glossary there in the 'files' too. Metta, Sarah ========== 52536 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana matheesha333 Hi Tep, > Tep: I am not clear why the switching between calm and insight may > slow down the progress, or why it is less efficient than doing samatha > only. A question is : samatha until when, then vipassana? For example, > suppose the meditator is able to attain only the first jhana no matter > how many years he has tried. Can he not proceed to vipassana? > M: Yes Tep, the first jhana is enough to attain arahahthood as mentioned in the suttas. This would be a measure of how much of samatha to do. But then the Buddha always encourages as much samatha and vipassana as possible according to the suttas. So there is no stopping there. The reason why I mentioned that the two method clashed with each other is this - to approach it from another angle : sati is used to balance excessive samadhi. Also the development of samadhi is quicker if time is devoted extensively and exclusively to it. For example 30 mins of samatha for a day ,7 days a week, is less efficient than those 30 being done in the same day seven times, as the quality of samadhi builds up with repeated practice and equally deteriorates with no practice. Gaps in between times of samatha practice where the mind is distracted help to errode away this quality of the mind. The fourth jhana has been said to be the best place to start vipassana in because of it's equanimity (i think in the commentaries). The one-pointdness developed in samatha makes it easier to stay focused on dhammas arising and passing away in vipassana. And this prolonged focus is required to carve into avijja. To get into things like nibbida/letting go, it is important to be able to stay focused on arising and passing away continuously. Maybe for hours/days. So non-interruption of vipassana is good. Tep: Now, when the meditator's mind becomes distracted > during the "dhamma watching", don't you agree that he/she should > establish "one-pointedness" again by a direct meditation scheme > before switching back to vipassana over and over during a day? M: If someone is doing this in a retreat setting and doing it right through the day, it will work. However for lay practice at home where time is limited (say practicing for an hour or so), it is much more of a problem because of the huge gaps of distraction. I'll explain what i meant about the samadhi sutta a bit more later on. metta Matheesha 52537 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 0:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana matheesha333 Hi Alan, Tep > > >Math. : Calm requires one pointednss, while insight requires being aware of everything in the present moment. > > I was taught that vipassana requires one-pointed concentration as much as samatha, it is just that one attends to the predominant object until it disappears or a stronger object comes along. M: Yes, I agree ..but perhaps not about the 'as much as samatha' bit. :) But nevertheless one-pointdness is required for both. A: I am puzzled by the idea that you can be "aware of everything in the >present moment" since I thought it was only possible to attend to one >object at a time. M: Yes, as Tep explained in reply to you. I'm posting the samadhi sutta which might illuminate a bit more. Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. 52538 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] photos sarahprocter... Hi Nina (& Lodewijk), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Sukin, > lovely. Enjoyed looking at them as slides with Lodewijk. .... S: Here’s the link to Sukin’s own photos if you didn’t see them too: http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos Also, you asked about a message I wrote. I don’t have the link, but here are a couple of extracts from it: >S:'The most important thing is understanding'. I keep reflecting on this reminder I was given as we parted from the group ... So often we're led astray by our attachments and ignorance into thinking that the most important thing is good health, good relationships, good experiences through the senses, feeling happy and not having upsets or having less appartent defilements and so on. But when there is understanding of presently appearing dhammas as namas and rupas, there is no doubt about the path, no hopelessness or helplessness, no question of over-striving or doing nothing, no concern about 'me' and 'my' defilements or what kamma has in store for us. We can be anywhere and visible object is just the same - a rupa to be known for what it is...the world at this moment. The same applies to any other dhamma which is apparent. <....> Many memories and good reminders, but again how easily we slip into thinking about the past, lost in one set of stories or other with attachment, completely forgetting about the present dhammas now, whether in Delhi, Dubai or anywhere else.< ... S: there was nothing on tape....just the few words as we left in passing. I laughed at the 3 cell-phones during dinner – I remember a few years ago meeting friends for lunch here and everyone using their cellphones too. As you say, ‘Never mind. Such is daily life.’ Dhammas are just as real:-). And your leaking hot water bottle – reminds me of similar occurrences in England. You’ll have to tell James about the fraction fit for his ears when he returns:-). I was trying to help Hal find that sutta which was Phra D’s favourite about the man who had the ability to become fully enlightened, but then took to drink and in the end couldn’t attain any level or insight. Does it ring a bell? Can you give me a reference? By the way, you wrote to Howard that ‘In a sotaapanna craving cannot lead to akusala kamma patha’ (#52395). Of course, many kinds of kamma patha such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct and lying cannot occur, but what about foolish babble or rude speech for example? Also, I meant to ask you which sutta you were referring to ages ago when you mentioned that ‘jhaana is called wrong practice’. I don’t have the ref #, but it was in a post to Ng Boon Huat in the context of how kusala kama without panna doesn’t lead out of samsara. I was just interested to look at the sutta. On the Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, I mentioned before that K.Sujin stressed that it wasn’t just addressed to the bhikkhus but the suttas are for anyone who can appreciate them. ‘Each has his or her own way’. Whether we reflect on foulness, clench teeth or whatever, it’s by conditions and there can be awareness of realities at such times. So we ‘should’ develop awareness and understanding, no matter what actions we’re engaged in, rather than following any steps or undertaking any special reflections or practices. Just as you wrote to Tep, “..thinking of asubha and contemplating it is a conditioned dhamma. Each individual is different and someone may have inclinations to contemplate asubha. It is not so that he *has to* contemplate asubha.” When we think there is a rule or a ‘should’ (as Ken H would say), we go wrong again. I like the quote from the commentary: “...When the bhikkhu does not direct his attention to the objects he likes and dislikes, such (unwholesome) thoughts about living beings and formations do not arise.” I would say this is a good description of the truth that we can test out anytime. It’s not a matter of directing or not directing (both would indicate an idea of self doing something), but of understanding the truths about conditioned dhammas as taught by the Buddha. [By the way, Tep, this is in U.P, if you wish to read the other posts Nina mentioned. >Vitakka-Santhana Sutta (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)< 35343, 35375, 35402, 35428, 36242, 36426, 36537] .... Also, just briefly on nimitta and why K.Sujin didn’t answer your question about whether nimitta is concept or reality, I think that as you said, we cling to words. Also, we can’t say that nimitta is concept or reality because it can refer to either concepts or signs of realities. It’s on account of these signs that we ignorant worldlings in ignorance misperceive the world, thinking we see trees and people. The noble ones also see visible objects with signs, but no misperception of the signs and details with wrong view of course. This is why we always read about the wrong attention to signs and details. If I come across my reference to the 14 animitta dhammas again, starting with nibbana of course, I’ll let you know. I have to say, I think the long discussions on conepts and realities are very important because we all need to hear and consider a lot about what realities are so that concepts are no longer confused or taken for being something real which can be experienced. Think how long we’ve been hearing about paramattha dhammas and clarifying these aspects ourselves! Of course, the only thing that will help in the end is the direct awareness of the present reality appearing now (and this was your important point). But people need to hear and consider a lot to even know in theory what the present reality is by their own understanding, I think. Good to get back to the Vism and other readings too, thank you. Metta, Sarah ======= 52539 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Original Buddhist way mr39515 Dear Leo and All... Hi there... During the Buddha times, all teachings were conducted by means of mouth. There were no writing or statue of the Buddha until a few hundred years after the Buddha enter parinibbana. The Buddha did told us that he is no longer here that the only thing that can save the rest of you is his Dhamma. In fact, one does not need the Buddha statue to pray and practice Buddhism. Learning the Dhamma is a more correct way to pay homage to the Buddha. However most temple and homes do have the a statue of a person who sit in a mediation way. I believe none of us in today times actually remember how the Buddha look like as there were no painting or written material or statue during the Buddha times. But we do accept that the statue in the temple as a representative of the statue of the Buddha. There are a few reason why this type of statue exist. Lay people perhaps need some sort of reference when they pay homage to the Buddha (some sort of mentality that lay people do need). And it is also good for all Buddhist to condition habitual kamma to pay homage to some one sitting in a meditation poisture. It will condition us in future birth that when we see some one meditating, we would at least have respect to such a person and perhaps that would able to condition us to meet the future Buddha(s). Having a Buddha statue also helps to remind us on the virtue of the Buddha especially condition us to prevent doing akusala. No body actually do the temple and argue in front of the statue of the Buddha for an example. Having said this, the 8 fold path is the path to enlightenment. Nothing is stated on statue or painting or any similar things. Do what you must but remember that the 8 fold path is the only path leading out of samsara. metta, mr39515 --- Leo wrote: > Hi > > I was reading many literature on India and history > of different > religions and life there. I wish I would have that. > If somehow I will > find it, I will let you know. The only thing I > defenetly remember, that > was in India and It was belonging to Buddha time. <...> 52540 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 0:58am Subject: Buddhist paintings exhibition leoaive Hi I visited many art exhibitions, including the biggest one, according to Book of world Records. I have seen many paintings, but all that was mostly europian, russian or american art. I would really like to see Buddhist paintings of famous and young painers about Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. I also wish to see paintings on impermanence of different things: to practice Vipassana Meditiation at the same time. I would really appreciate, if someone would tell me: where that exhibition is, or at least some names, that I can check for. With Metta Leo 52541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi Smallchap, I am glad to see you back and remember our former exchanges which I enjoyed. You are always very sincere and I admire your short, direct style. I am butting in and want to ask you something. Why would you need to have jhana? Nina. op 17-11-2005 00:58 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: > Hi Matheesha, > > I have no jhanic experience. 52542 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada nilovg Dear Joop, op 15-11-2005 19:57 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: >do you have > proposals yourself about what language, what metaphores, what myths > can be used best to give Therava the best possibility in a not- > buddhistic culture (for example in the future)? ------- There is such a wealth contained in the ancient texts of the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, but people may find it difficult to get the essence of the texts or to see that they are relevant for all times. I would like to help others with as many examples from daily life as I possibly can in order to show that the teachings help people to know their own faults and vices and to have more understanding of their own lives. Lobha, dosa and moha are of all times, and the Buddha helps people to develop understanding of all dhammas, akusala included. We have to know our true accumulations of akusala, as it arises just now in daily life. Seeing arises and it experiences only visible object. But on account of it we think with attachment about events, people and things and are quite taken in by our thoughts. It is paññaa that can know all these realities as they are. There is no need to do something else first, to become calm first, then there is lobha leading us away from the goal. Lobha always plays us tricks and this happens at all times, past, present, future. If lobha leads us away from the present reality we will go along a fake Path, not the true Path leading to liberation from dukkha. There is no need for myths to explain the truth. I am not inclined either to supranatural experiences, I like everything to be just plain, down to earth. I feel that noble friendship and listening to the Dhamma are the right conditions for the development of paññaa. I am now considering the Commentary to the sutta about the Removal of evil Thoughts. The advices we read about are all so human. For example, when you do not know how to remedy the problem, just ring the bell and ask advice from good friends. It is all down to earth. Nina. 52543 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . nilovg Hi Tep, I also appreciate our discussions on asubha saññaa. I have a few more thoughts to add and I came across some suttas that I think relevant. op 16-11-2005 03:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The threads Asubha Bhavana 1 (#52460) and 2(# 52459) are an > excellent summary of our discussion on asubha sanna and right > understanding. --------- N: I thought more on teeth clenching. It is said that kusala citta has to replace akusala citta. N: As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. We can check this ourselves by clenching the teeth and putting the tongue agains the palate. What appears? What types of cittas? It is the citta that matters. It may be akusala citta with attachment to the idea of wanting to be a good person, or kusala cittas with awareness. If we have listened to the Dhamma and have some understanding of nama and rupa, we may notice hardness or pressure. These are rupas appearing through the bodysense. Their characteristics may be realized without thinking and then we can learn that there are not may teeth, my palate, no self who presses the teeth. The clenched teeth we read about in the sutta are as it were a bodily expression to the supreme effort and determination necessary for the attainment of arahatship, just as the Bodhisatta applied supreme effort to attain Buddhahood. This effort should be accompanied by strong paññaa. I give more examples from the Co. to show that it is the citta that is important, not the outward action. It is said that the bhikkhu should take an empty notebook from his shoulderbag and write words of praise about the excellent qualities of the Buddha. N: When the bhikkhu is discouraged about his unwholesome thoughts he can be inspired when he thinks of the excellent qualities of the Buddha. These thoughts will cause him to be full of enthusiasm and they will strengthen his confidence and dedication to the Master. The Buddha had accumulated the perfections for countless aeons, with the utmost endurance and patience so that he could attain Buddhahood. The bhikkhu who writes words of praise can be reminded that he also should have endurance to develop understanding and all the perfections so that he can attain arahatship. While he is writing words of praise he can feel gratefulness and the greatest respect for the Teacher and then he will have wholesome thoughts instead of thoughts with desire, aversion and ignorance. If he has doubt about the Dhamma, about the Path leading to the realization of nibbaana, this can be abandoned. He is reminded not to delay the development of understanding of nama and rupa, even while he is writing. The Commentary explains that if he still cannot abandon unwholesome thoughts, he can take out things such as matches from his shoulderbag and can think of another object, considering: this is a match that is above, and this is one that is underneath. Or else, if this does not help, he can take out a small box from his bag and consider: this is a needle bag , this is a small knife, and this a nailcutter. Or else, if this does not help he can mend his robe that is torn in order to pay attention to another subject. If he by performing those kusala kammas can abandon unwholesome thoughts, he can continue his meditation subject. N: If the bhikkhu would merely think of the contents of his shoulderbag without kusala citta, it would be of no avail. His shoulderbag and the things in it he has for his daily use can remind him of his life of fewness of wishes. He owns nothing, all the things that were given to him for his daily use actually belong to the Sangha. When he was ordained as a monk he renounced his worldly life of sense pleasures. To become a bhikkhu is like a new birth as is said elsewhere in a Commentary. It is the monk¹s siila to review with mindfulness all the things he uses. His goal is following the Master¹s instruction, to lead the life of the bhikkhu in all its purity and to eradicate defilements. Whatever work the monk is doing, such as sweeping his dwelling, washing and dying his robes and mending them, he should develop understanding of nama and rupa. (next time more suttas). Nina. 52544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, op 17-11-2005 01:27 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> Sujin: When paññaa of the degree of insight knowledge, vipassanaañå > na, arises, >> it arises even against our expectations. ------- > When it arises, must is it always be that first "tender" insight, > knowing nama from rupa? (nama-rupa-pariccheda nnana) I found this in > the Appendix 9 of Cetasikas. --------- N: The stages of insight arise in order, thus, first the first stage. Tender insight, taru.na vipassanaa, meaning, a beginning insight. There are three stages of them and after that there is mahaa-vipassanaa, principal insight, clearly realizing the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. She said: against our expectations or beyond expectations. When we have expectations or want to do things to induce insight, it does not arise for sure. It is anattaa, beyond control. Right understanding of seeing, visible object etc. has to be developed on and on so that it can develop more and paññaa can become insight, direct understanding. There is no other way. --------- Phil, quotes: However, before we can know that it is an element that > experiences, not >> self, we should develop paññ?Efor a long time until there is no > longer the >> concept of the whole world that we used to have. Then only the > element that >> experiences remains, and this is the characteristic of nåma that > is not >> blended or mixed with rúpa. > This "develop panna for a long time..." - it is pariyatti, right? > Can it be said that through pariyatti "there is no longer the > concept of the whole world that we used to have?" ----------- N: Pariyatti: intellectual understanding with a beginning awareness. The quote above: naama appears very clearly, not mixed with rupa, this refers already to insight. Even now, when there is a moment of direct awareness and understanding of a nama or rupa we do not think of the whole world at that moment, but immediately afterwards there is bound to be a great deal of thinking of concepts. As I understood from Kh Sujin, when vipassanaa ñaana arises, there are several moments of understanding arising in mind-door processes. At such moments it is very clear that there is no world, only nama and rupa that appear very clearly, and no idea of self who experiences. But, she said, when the moments of vipassana ñaana have fallen away, the world appears as usual. Does this answer your question? Nina. 52545 From: Alan McAllister Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana drampsych Tep et al: It is my understanding that in vipassana any sense-object, whether it be a sound, a thought, or a bodily sensation, for instance, can be the object of meditation at any given time depending on its strength. > If I had to answer your comment, I would say that "everything" here > means the body, feeling, mind (citta), and mind-object(dhamma) -- one > at a time as the object of sati. This seems to be a different slant. One could determine that one would only meditate on one of these types of objects (e.g., feelings) and make that general category, in a sense, the home object, but this would be an exercise and not the full echinalada, as it were. Vipassana is supposed to be open ended, and, in that sense, inclusive of "everything." The idea, as I understand it, is of "choiceless awareness," going where the mind goes, but sustaining attention on the object that predominates until it disappears or is replaced by a stronger object. I stand to be corrected. Alan McA 52547 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:12am Subject: Attachment to get into contact with another matheesha333 Hello everyone, Another interesting sutta. Any comments? ------------------------- 4. Saõgaõikàràmasuttaü- Attachment to get into contact with another. 007.04. Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu attached to coming into contact with another, a lover of a crowd should take pleasure in seclusion is not a possibility. Not secluded and the mind not delighting in seclusion should seize a sign is not a possibility. When the mind does not take the sign, that the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is not a possibility. Without completing right view, he should be complete in right concentration is not a posibility. Without completing right concentration, that he should dispel bonds is not a possibility. Without dispelling bonds that he should realize extinction is not a possibility. Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu not attached to coming into contact with another, not a lover of crowds, should take pleasure in seclusion is a possibility. Secluded and the mind delighting in seclusion should seize a sign is a possibility. When the mind seizes the sign, that the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is a possibility. Completing right view, he should be complete in right concentration is a posibility. Completing right concentration, that he should dispel bonds is a possibility. Dispelling bonds that he should realize extinction is a possibility. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara4/6-chakkanipata/007-anagamivaggo-e.htm metta Matheesha 52548 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:16am Subject: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) sukinderpal Dear Joop and all, I have changed the title of this post, since it has evolved to something else than what it was. ----------------------------------------------- > Joop: I know some DSG-participants interprete the 'right mindfulness' > and the 'right concentration' of the Noble Eightfold Path as doing > (formal) meditation and other participants let it happen in daily > life. I think a combination of both is no problemgood and doing > meditation without seeing what I like to see is possible: I really > don't have any idea what will happen in the future in my or as a > result of my meditation. Sukin: Let us just say that, "do what comes natural to you". If indeed anyone on DSG has accumulated so much of the tendency (in past lives) to sit and meditate, then I encourage it, since this may in fact be the result of much kusala (samatha) developed in the past, who knows? And if this is the case, then such a person should be highly respected. It is however one thing even in such a case, to `meditate' with firm understanding about the danger of akusala, and another to be doing so merely out of `habit'. In the former, it seems to me that it would reflect in that the person leans towards living a kind of life where he would not want to experience sensual pleasures all that much. And this does not appear to be the case with anyone that I know. ;-) Now, even if one had the inclinations and capacity to develop samatha/jhana, the problem is in mistakenly connecting this with the development of vipassana. I think people make wrong connections here. The panna which knows that all is conditioned and anatta, is *not* the same as the one which sees the danger in akusala and hence the value of developing kusala. The former is in those who correctly appreciate the Buddha's Teachings, while the latter is common to peoples of all religions and non religions. In fact you can have very high accumulations for the latter, i.e. to go into jhanas, but little or none for the former! And this is why I have said elsewhere; that if one held such a view, it reflects misunderstanding of both samatha and vipassana, and so the end result is not going to be good. It seems to me that most people approach the Teachings with a little panna of either of these two kinds, but a strong `desire' to develop kusala . And craving for results pushes them instead of carefully considering the Teachings, to "do something about it!" There are so many "methods" offered out there, and each person is attracted to one or more of these according to accumulations and other conditions. And one of these accumulated tendencies is "wrong view" which we all have. This, together with wanting results, pushes us towards the wrong way. Strong accumulations of panna will see through any wrong practice, but it can be expected that very few have that kind of panna these days. Now more to the point. If you or anyone find that you naturally want to meditate, i.e. without any idea that this is what the Buddha recommended, and others like me, prefer to spend time watching a good film, I say, both are equally good for the development of satipatthana. And even though there may be right understanding of the object of Samatha which leads to the highest jhanas, still this adds nothing to the possibility of attaining vipassana. As far as the development of Right Understanding of the Path is concerned, this can be got only from hearing the Teachings and understanding it. And this has a path of development of its own, which though it can go in tandem with the development of Samatha/jhana, is not dependent on it. Do those of us who have this idea of tying samatha with vipassana have this inclination to samatha/ jhana by accumulations (though the very idea is still wrong no matter)? Or has this idea come to him after having read, heard or otherwise experienced the effects of formal meditation as being "the Buddhist Practice"? I think there are a thousand and one ways in which we can become convinced of anything by reasoning, and we all do that. Hence the sensible thing is to develop a clear intellectual understanding of what indeed *is* the Dhamma, and not be too quick to jump into conclusions, especially one that involve any idea of `doing' and `promise of results'. We will all reason, and wrongly, with all ideas that we encounter, and Buddhist ideas are no different. Are we sure that what ever has lead us to the conclusion about `meditation' as being part of the Teachings towards vipassana, is based on Right Understanding? Can we ever say we have Right Understanding if it conflicts with basic principles of conditionality? I know that you do not make this samatha / jhana connection, but rather follow what is known as `vipassana meditation'. And this may be said to be at least `better' than the other idea ;-). Here I repeat that the Path has to start with `right view'. And this involves the understanding that it is about whatever dhamma is conditioned to arise NOW. As long as there are questions of "how" and ideas about a `better time and place and mental condition', the point will continually be missed. Because what indeed has to be known from the very beginning is *this* very dhamma (lobha) which is seeking something and this wrong view which conditions the idea of another time and place. Even in the case of `trying' to be aware of what is arising, the point is the same, it is lobha which is leading the way. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Joop: I haven't said that I don't belief in rebirth, rebirth is > simply not a part of my culture. Sukin: Sorry for misunderstanding you. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > It is not a part of my frame of reference. Anicca, anatta and dukkha > is, I have the inner convicion that they are true. So my question to > you: can you imagine Or said in an other way, what do you prefer: > somebody who accepts sixty procent of the Theravada doctrines or > somebody who doesn't accept Theravada at all because it is so > orthodox? Sukin: As said above, we all reason differently according to our accumulations and other conditions. I know that my way of thinking is more or less in a distinct pattern as would be yours and everyone else's. We all more or less circle around the same concerns depending on our preference, which in fact does not change much in just about 60 or 70 years of living as a human. The development of Right Understanding does not change any basic nature. In the end it does not matter what you think and what I think about the conventional `self' and that conventional `other'. My thoughts are no more valuable in this regard, than any one else's. If there ever is a `should', I will nominate `development of right understanding'. And this is about what ever appears regardless of our preferences; at some point or the other we will all have to come to understand `thinking' as just another dhamma. And this will make it matter little what our ideas and ideals are. In short, I don't think like you, so I can't answer your question. ;-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > And I know "wrong view" is a very important topic of many DSG- > participants like you, Sarah writes many times about it too. To > me "wrong view" is a topic too, but much less important than "anicca" > but that's what really inspires me to be a Buddhist. > "Anicca" combined with "emptiness" as described in MN 121 by the Buddha Sukin: Right View is another term for Right Understanding. So we must in the end rightly understand `anicca' too, isn't it? ;-) Sorry for the lengthy post, but you are good at taking out only those points that matter to you. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 52549 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Dear Matheesha, Sarah, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: >... Yes, it is interesting that he doesnt use the word jhana. Equally > interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina to arupa > (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that this is > possible. I think he is talking of the jhanas because the immaterial > (arupa) jhanas are mentioned in order, and also because he speaks of animitta (signless) concentration ('without a theme'). > > He seems to be speaking of the mind of an arahath at the end and the > emptiness he enjoys. Gave me goosebumps! > > metta > > Matheesha > Your interpretation of this Sutta seems logic and right. So I think the Buddha did not try to give a meditation instruction to wordlings in it: that is dangerous or not possible for a not-arahat. Still the Sutta must have a function, it must have a message for us. I have looked with google if I could find a commentary about it, hardly without result (only an essay of Bachman in http://www.nyx.net/~dbachman/work/cula.doc) Perhaps Sarah, you know a source. To you as representent of the non- formal-meditators a question how to comtemplate on a Sutta like this. To be sure (because we have had earlier discussions about it): emptiness is in my opinions more than no-self, it is no-anything. Sukin, your message #52548 has (partly) to do with this topic too; I had not yet read it good enough and give a reaction later Metta Joop 52551 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - > >Your following comment in # 52387 motivated me to write this post. > >Jon: >"I think that where the Buddha uses a 'neutral' term such >as 'development', it is better to accept it as such rather than add a >particular slant that is not apparent from the text or supported by the >commentaries. Those who translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation' do a >disservice to the reader, I believe." > >Tep: According to the PTS Dictionary, it is true that 'bhavana' has a >meaning like 'developing by means of thought' and other soft >meanings. However, the words 'meditation' and 'cultivation by mind' >are also included in the PTS' basket of words. > >"Bhavana (p. 503) (f.) [fr. bhaveti, or fr. bhava in meaning of bhava 2, cp. >Class. Sk. bhavana] producing, dwelling on something, putting one's >thoughts to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation, >cultivation by mind, culture. Bhavanamaya accomplished by culture >practice; brought into existence by practice (of cultured thought)." >[endquote] > >Tep: The term 'bhavana', when combined with other dhamma gives a >stronger emphasis to "developed by meditation". > > As far as I know, the term 'bhavana' means 'development' pure and simple, without any connotation as to the particular means by which the development occurs. The PTS dictionary entry represents the views of its compliers (who are likely to be Pali scholars rather than students of the teachings). Here's what Nyanatiloka' Buddhist Dictionary has to say: ******************************* 'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'. One has to distinguish 2 kinds: * development of tranquillity (samatha-bhávaná), i.e. concentration (samádhi), and * development of insight (vipassaná-bhávaná), i.e. wisdom (paññá). These two important terms, tranquillity and insight (s. samatha-vipassaná), are very often met with and explained in the Sutta, as well as in the Abhidhamma. Tranquillity (samatha) is the concentrated, unshaken, peaceful, and therefore undefiled state of mind, whilst insight (vipassaná) is the intuitive insight into the impermanence, misery and impersonality (anicca, dukkha, anattá; s. tilakkhana) of all bodily and mental phenomena of existence, included in the 5 groups of existence, namely, corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness; s. khandha. ... ******************************* http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_b.htm As I read this, Nyanatiloka does not consider 'meditation' to be a suitable translation of 'bhavana'. >For example, 'bhavana saddha' means "faith and confidence >developed and matured by meditation"; this developed faith is known >as 'saddhindriya' (the controlling faculty of faith). Similarly, 'bhavana >manasikara' means "keen attention to meditation", while 'bhavana-sati' >means developed meditative mindfulness (known as satipatthana). > >Ref. 'Requisites of Enlightenment(Bodhipakkhiya-dhamma)' >by Venerable Ledi Sayadaw. >http://www.saigon.com/~anson/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e05.htm > > I am not familiar with the 2 terms 'bhavana saddha' and 'bhavana manasikara', so I cannot comment. It is not clear from the passage at the link you gave whether these are terms taken from the (ancient) texts or are are terms coined by the Ven author. >Tep: Furthermore, the term 'bhavana' is identical to 'kammatthana', >which means meditation, in the following article. > >"The way to train the mind in the Buddhist teaching is called Bhávaná. >Another name is Kammatthana. This is to raise the mind to a high level. >You shouldn't let your mind wander about freely. A mind without >Kammattahana is like a person being unemployed. It is wasteful. If your >mind wanders, it creates problems. It will be susceptible to the mental >hindrances (Nivarana). So you must train your mind with Kammatthana >(Bhávaná). By practicing meditation your mind will go in the right >direction. > >"There are two kinds of Kammatthana (Meditation) in Buddhism:- > >1. Samatha-Kammatthana ---- Calm Meditation. This is to calm your >mind mental hindrances. > >2. Vipassana-Kammatthana --- Insight Meditation. This is to see all >things as they really are in order to get rid of all kinds of mental >defilement. Insight Meditation is found only in Buddhism. [endquote] >http://www.buddhistinformation.com/meditation.htm > > I have not previously heard it suggested that the terms bhavana and kammatthana are identical in meaning. Here is what Nyanatiloka has to say on 'kammathana': <<# kammatthána: lit. 'working-ground' (i.e. for meditation), is the term in the Com. for 'subjects of meditation'>> The 40 kammathana are listed by Nyanatiloka in the entry for 'bhavana'. They appear there in connection with samatha bhavana (they have no particular connection with vipassana bhavana). So bases on this I would say the 2 terms are not identical. >Tep: The above is just a small part of the articles I found on the Internet >on this subject of 'bhavana' and 'meditation'. So it seems that there is a >lot for us to learn from those respectable monks and knowledgeable >authors out there. I think they are doing a great service to humble >readers. > > There' s a lot out there in the internet, and I think we have to use our discretion in what we choose to consider. It's always best to check for references (and then read the cited text for oneself). Jon 52552 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Joop and all, .......................... > Sorry for the lengthy post, but you are good at taking out only those > points that matter to you. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin. > Dear Sukin Some comments on some quotes of you: Sukin: "And even though there may be right understanding of the object of Samatha which leads to the highest jhanas, still this adds nothing to the possibility of attaining vipassana." Joop: I think we use the term 'vipassana' in a different way. I will not say 'attaining' but 'doing vipassana'. That is: sitting or walking observing, noting and labeling all phenomena that arise and pass away, one by one. And with the increased mindfulnes as a result of daily doing that I can be more mindful in daily life too. Sukin: "Are we sure that what ever has lead us to the conclusion about `meditation' as being part of the Teachings towards vipassana, is based on Right Understanding?" Joop: Do you mean I should not consider doing anything (for example vipassana-medition) before I have comple Right Understanding? Then I do not agree with do. Sukin: "Here I repeat that the Path has to start with `right view'." Joop: For me the Noble Eightfold Path has no beginning and - as long I'm not fully awakened - no end. It is a cycle, it is doing all the eight aspect together again and again. I know that there is a discussion (in DSG) about with what aspect it starts but that is - to me - not a fruitful discussion. Sukin: "And this involves the understanding that it is about whatever dhamma is conditioned to arise NOW. … Even in the case of `trying' to be aware of what is arising, the point is the same, it is lobha which is leading the way. Joop: Of this I know that it is a DSG-discussion too. If I make a dichotomy of : "let things happen in a passive 'me' " versus "having a volition", I think "understanding" and ""trying to be aware" are both volitional acts. But please don't say back about this: it's fruitless to me Sukin: "Right View is another term for Right Understanding. So we must in the end rightly understand `anicca' too, isn't it? ;-)" Joop: No. In the first place: where is "the end"? And more important: 'anicca', which has to me much to do with 'emptiness' (see my MN 121 thread) is not something to understand but to experience: seeing things as they really are. Thanks for the rest of your post, I read all, most I understand but will not react to all aspects. Metta Joop 52553 From: "smallchap" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Nina, > I am glad to see you back and remember our former exchanges which I enjoyed. > You are always very sincere and I admire your short, direct style. I also have great admiration for your dedication and perseverance in learning the Dhamma and sharing it with others. > Why would you need to have jhana? I am really in no position to say if I need to have jhana. On a personal level, as of now I don't think I need to have jhana but if I can attain jhana without neglecting my vipassana, why not? If my teacher were to say to me now: "smallchap, I will teach you jhana." I would gladly learn it. So until I attain jhana, I wouldn't be able to give a satisfactory answer to your question. It is like asking, why you need to be a monk? I have been a teemporary monk before, 7 times in all. And I can answer in confidence, it is not the question of need. smallchap 52554 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joop, > There is such a wealth contained in the ancient texts of the Tipitaka and > the Commentaries, but people may find it difficult to get the essence ... Dear Nina Many thanks for this post. It's the first time in this thread I get the impression we are talking about the same topic: how to help people today (and in the near future) in finding and going on the Path. Nina: "There is such a wealth contained in the ancient texts of the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, but people may find it difficult to get the essence of the texts or to see that they are relevant for all times. I would like to help others with as many examples from daily life as I possibly can …" Joop: That's correct, you do; I wish I and more people can do it. There is only one problem: one should use examples from the daily lifes from other (for example younger) people, not the daily life of oneself. Nina: " … in order to show that the teachings help people to know their own faults and vices and to have more understanding of their own lives. … We have to know our true accumulations of akusala, as it arises just now in daily life." Joop: I know we talked about fault and vices earlier and I don't like these words. I prefer to talk in positive terms and I think it works better when we use positive ways of reasoning, when we talk about possibilities. How about accumulations of kusala? People and especially woman in the western world already hate themselves enough, no need for more emphasis on their faults and vices. Nina: "There is no need to do something else first, to become calm first, then there is lobha leading us away from the goal." Joop: For a simple buddhistic mind like me, you are saying here to modern (western) people: don't (formal) meditate? Do you really think that this works? I repeat my message to you a week ago, but I think we can better say: "Very good that you start meditating, but don't forget meditation is only a means, not the goal" Nina: "There is no need for myths to explain the truth." Joop: O yes, there is; at least with pedagogical reasons. Stories have a much bigger impact than sermons (dutch: preken) !!! The same with "devotion": strictly abhidhammical thought "devotion" (for example bowing for a Buddha statue) is nonsense, but it still can have a positive spiritual role. So it should be wholesome (not for us but for who are till now not interested in buddhism) to have modern myths, modern stories, modern forms of devotion. And modern forms of criticize society, for example the consumerism of our society. (And, to remember the start of this thread: the decline of Buddha Sasana in 5000 years is part of a myth) I don't know if you want to continue this thread. Perhaps what we exchanged till now now is clear enough. Metta Joop 52555 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:55am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Sebastien, Good analysis, but try to find out how DO works in Arhants, Buddhas, and high level Bodhisattvas. The elements that are present in both cycles may provide a clue or two. From this, we should be able to see how to leave the cycle. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- I suppose that if there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in the circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving etc. Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > But then, how does one enter the cycle? 52556 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:10am Subject: 1st NOBLE TRUTH [Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11] D.O. links 9, 11 & 12 dacostacharles Source: http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm THE FIRST NOBLE TRUTH What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering: in short the five categories affected by clinging are suffering. There is this Noble Truth of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before. This Noble Truth must be penetrated by fully understanding suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before. This Noble Truth has been penetrated by fully understanding suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before. [Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11] The First Noble Truth with its three aspects is: "There is suffering, dukkha. Dukkha should be understood. Dukkha has been understood." This is a very skilful teaching because it is expressed in a simple formula which is easy to remember, and it also applies to everything that you can possibly experience or do or think concerning the past, the present or the future. Suffering or dukkha is the common bond we all share. Everybody everywhere suffers. Human beings suffered in the past, in ancient India; they suffer in modern Britain; and in the future, human beings will also suffer. What do we have in common with Queen Elizabeth? - we suffer. With a tramp in Charing Cross, what do we have in common? - suffering. It includes all levels from the most privileged human beings to the most desperate and underprivileged ones, and all ranges in between. Everybody everywhere suffers. It is a bond we have with each other, something we all understand. When we talk about our human suffering, it brings out our compassionate tendencies. But when we talk about our opinions, about what I think and what you think about politics and religion, then we can get into wars. I remember seeing a film in London about ten years ago. It tried to portray Russian people as human beings by showing Russian women with babies and Russian men taking their children out for picnics. At the time, this presentation of the Russian people was unusual because most of the propaganda of the West made them out to be titanic monsters or cold-hearted, reptilian people - and so you never thought of them as human beings. If you want to kill people, you have to make them out to be that way; you cannot very well kill somebody if you realise they suffer the way you do. You have to think that they are cold-hearted, immoral, worthless and bad, and that it is better to get rid of them. You have to think that they are evil and that it is good to get rid of evil. With this attitude, you might feel justified in bombing and machine-gunning them. If you keep in mind our common bond of suffering, that makes you quite incapable of doing those things. The First Noble Truth is not a dismal metaphysical statement saying that everything is suffering. Notice that there is a difference between a metaphysical doctrine in which you are making a statement about The Absolute and a Noble Truth which is a reflection. A Noble Truth is a truth to reflect upon; it is not an absolute; it is not The Absolute. This is where Western people get very confused because they interpret this Noble Truth as a kind of metaphysical truth of Buddhism - but it was never meant to be that. You can see that the First Noble Truth is not an absolute statement because of the Fourth Noble Truth, which is the way of non-suffering. You cannot have absolute suffering and then have a way out of it, can you? That doesn't make sense. Yet some people will pick up on the First Noble Truth and say that the Buddha taught that everything is suffering. The Pali word, dukkha, means "incapable of satisfying" or "not able to bear or withstand anything": always changing, incapable of truly fulfilling us or making us happy. The sensual world is like that, a vibration in nature. It would, in fact, be terrible if we did find satisfaction in the sensory world because then we wouldn't search beyond it; we'd just be bound to it. However, as we awaken to this dukkha, we begin to find the way out so that we are no longer constantly trapped in sensory consciousness. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 52557 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:15am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Nina, You are right 100%, but then due the suttra claim it is the complete explanation? I have to ask; can a person with wisdom suffer or be the cause of suffering? Can a person without the inner strength to follow her Buddha inspired wisdom suffer or be the cause of suffering? My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 areas. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Charles D, I would say that the second and third noble Truths are explained by D.O. Bhikkhu Bodhi in his intro to d.O.: Nina. op 15-11-2005 20:59 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > YES, YES (very good point :-); but is DO a Noble Truth? 52558 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:21am Subject: RE: The Buddha as Prescriber of Medication Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana asa prerequis... dacostacharles Nina, This is a very good point, it reminds of a point a Lama made to me: Too much time spent thinking and not enough time spent practicing. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Ken and Howard, there have been many discussions about the Buddha's teachings being descriptive or prescriptive. The Buddha understood the diffirent accumulations of beings that make them think and act in particular ways. Whatever we do or think is all motiovated by citta, a conditioned dhamma. Nobody in the world, not even a Buddha, can tell someone else: let citta be thus, let it be thus. When the Buddha said: develop understanding, or one should do this or that, this is not a command. His words can be a condition for the listener to develop understanding and other kinds of kusala. Therefore I think that discussions about description or prescription are redundant. op 12-11-2005 03:32 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> Ken: No matter how prescriptive the language might be, I can't interpret >> teachings of anatta as telling me to "go out and do something." >> >> --------------- Howard: >He SHOULD reflect on the removal of the source of unskillful >> thoughts.... Ken: When we have understood the instructions correctly, 'reflecting upon >> the Dhamma' becomes part of our daily life. .... It is a teaching to be >> understood here and now. ------- N: Satipatthana is specifically the Buddha's teaching and this is implied in all suttas, also in The Removal of Unwholesome Thoughts. This means: understanding, understanding. Nina. 52559 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:56am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Sebastien, I forgot to add: You stated: "If there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in the circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving etc. What do you mean by "one" ? In the end I was going to say: "The elements of the cycles of DO are relative, this is why you can enter or leave after any element, or even appear to have skipped some." Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Thursday, 17 November, 2005 17:55 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) Hi Sebastien, Good analysis, but try to find out how DO works in Arhants, Buddhas, and high level Bodhisattvas. The elements that are present in both cycles may provide a clue or two. From this, we should be able to see how to leave the cycle. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- I suppose that if there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in the circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving etc. Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > But then, how does one enter the cycle? 52560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goenka and Vedana nilovg Hi Larry, we discussed this also long ago. It is understandable that mental feelings also condition rupas and these are experienced by body-consciousness. Since cittas arise and fall away so rapidly we may easily be confused as to different experiences. When there are conditions of the arising of sati it can be aware of one dhamma at a time and things will be clearer, I think. Now we are learning in Visuddhimagga about feelings being coarse and subtle and we see that citta and cetasikas, and thus also feelings are intimately connected with citta. It is even said that akusala feeling also produces vipaka. We have learnt that one of the originating factors of rupa is citta, and thus also the accompanying cetasikas, including feeling. Nina. op 17-11-2005 05:56 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > What makes it so > interesting is that feeling seems to be intimately associated with body. 52561 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:52am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Insight knowledge is the paññå that realizes the difference between nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma, it realizes their characteristics as distinct from each other, as they appear one at a time through the mind-door. We have heard of sense-door process and mind-door process, and also now a mind-door process is in between the sense-door processes, it follows upon each sense-door process. However, the mind-door process is not evident because it is, as it were, hidden by the sense-door processes. Also when there is thinking of names and concepts on account of sense objects, the mind-door process is not apparent. At such moments the arising and falling away of realities is not evident. Realities have already arisen and disappeared anyway. When concepts hide the truth one does not know paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. However, when pañña has been developed to the degree of insight knowledge, the mind-door process appears and then there is no more doubt about it. At this moment realities appear through the sense-doors, through the eyes or the ears, but while one is thinking, nothing appears through the eyes or the ears. While one is thinking, there is no colour, no sound. We know through the study of the Dhamma and by memorizing what we learnt that there is the mind-door process, but the reality of the mind-door process does not appear. However, the paññå that is insight knowledge knows all realities through the mind-door. Realities appear one at a time through the mind-door. How does one feel about that? Jarurin: Perhaps one is frightened. Sujin: It depends on conditions. It is an experience that never before arose in life, but pañña at that moment is able to know that characteristic as nåma, and that is vipassanå ñåna. One may be frightened or astonished while thinking why realities appear in this way, because one never thought that the world one is familiar with does, in the ultimate sense, not exist. Usually the whole wide world appears, because one has eyes and ears and thus this world one is familiar with appears. It appears in this way until the time comes when the world appears as empty; then there is only the citta which knows the characteristics of dhammas that appear, and which knows that the realities arise and appear because there are the appropriate conditions. Paññå will clearly realize that rúpa appears through the sense-door and subsequently through the mind-door. This is according to the truth. The saying: ³There is nothing, then there is something and after that there is nothing to be found², is according to the truth. Paññå knows that everything the Buddha taught is the truth that appears and that can be known, from the first level of paññå on, which is knowing the characteristics of nåma and of rúpa. People should not forego any stage of paññå and try to do something else. They should develop paññå so that they know first of all the characteristics of realities that are nåma and rúpa. We cannot know yet as it is lobha-múla-citta, and we cannot know yet whether it is accompanied by wrong view or not. When we study and we have theoretical knowledge of realities, the characteristics of nåma and rúpa do not appear, because we only know the terms. We may say that this type of lobha is accompanied by wrong view and that type by conceit, but this does not mean that we know the realities that arise and appear and then fall away. ***** Nina. 52562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana nilovg Dear Ng Boon, thank you for your post, you are straight to the point. I could add something: I found it interesting that the Commentaries speak about two kinds of jhana: aarammana upanijjhaana, pertaining to the meditation subjects of samatha, and lakkha.na upanijjhaana, pertaining to the contemplation of the three characteristics of conditioned dhammas. The pali term jhana means burning (the burning away of defilements) and also contemplation. Nina. op 17-11-2005 06:32 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > Dear Alan > . There are 2 types of meditation with 2 > objective: > 1. Samatha Meditation (uses the 40 Objects) > 2. Satipatana or Vipassana (uses the 4 station of > mindfulness) 52563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation nilovg Hi Matheesha and Joop, yes I also think the arupa jhanas are referred to. But as to animitta, I take it that this is nibbaana. Nina. op 17-11-2005 02:01 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I think he is talking of the jhanas because the immaterial > (arupa) jhanas are mentioned in order, and also because he speaks of > animitta (signless) concentration ('without a theme'). 52564 From: Alan McAllister Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana drampsych Ng Boon Huat, Thank you for detailed reply. > Hi there... There are 2 types of meditation with 2 objective: > 1. Samatha Meditation (uses the 40 Objects) > 2. Satipatana or Vipassana (uses the 4 station of > mindfulness) > However Satipatana or Vipassana uses the 4 station of mindfulness which uses a different type of concentration. We uses Momentary Concentration (Khanika). The objects of meditation changes as they arises thru the 6 doors. There is no one fix object like in samatha meditation thus we can NOT attain one-pointedness or Jhana. Vipassana do NOT meant to see calmness as the object changes all the time. > However the advantage of vipassana is that we can see things as they truely are, the ultimate reality and that the deep nature of all phenomena as Anicca, Dukha, Anatta. This is a very helpful clarification. Many thanks again. with metta, Alan McA 52565 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:56pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Alan - You wrote : > Alan: > It is my understanding that in vipassana any sense-object, whether it be a sound, a thought, or a bodily sensation, for instance, can be the object of meditation at any given time depending on its strength. > > > Tep: > > If I had to answer your comment, I would say that "everything" here > > means the body, feeling, mind (citta), and mind-object(dhamma) -- one at a time as the object of sati. > > >Alan: > This seems to be a different slant. One could determine that one would only meditate on one of these types of objects (e.g., feelings) and make that general category, in a sense, the home object, but this would be an exercise and not the full echinalada, as it were. Vipassana is supposed to be open ended, and, in that sense, inclusive of "everything." The idea, as I understand it, is of "choiceless awareness," going where the mind goes, but sustaining attention on the object that predominates until it disappears or is replaced by a stronger object. > > I stand to be corrected. > Tep: Ng Boon Huat in message #52532 summarizes samatha and vipassana (related to satipatthana ) as well as the kind of meditation objects. Therefore, I think your concern above is already addressed by Huat. However, if there is anything else that is not covered by Huat's message #52532 and that I should explain, then just let me know. I'll be glad to respond appropriately. Regards, Tep ==== 52566 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) sbillard2000 Hi Charles, By "one", I meant an being, an individual believing to have an atta. Concerning the elements of the cycle of dependant origination I believe they are concomitant and interdependant, none of them can be called the first, even if some of them are aborded first for explanation. (Hope my english is correct). Sébastien > You stated: "If there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in > the > circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving > etc. > > What do you mean by "one" ? > > In the end I was going to say: "The elements of the cycles of DO are > relative, this is why you can enter or leave after any element, or even > appear to have skipped some." 52567 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi Nina, Joop, N:yes I also think the arupa jhanas are referred to. But as to animitta, I > take it that this is nibbaana. M: Hi Nina. I have seen animitta, and following that, nirodha, in these jhana descriptions. I think these are two different things. I think the latter is nibbana (not 100% certain). The animitta is a type of samadhi ('animittta samadhi'), while the other is a (nirodha) samapatti. IMO it is a type of one-pointedness without an object, where only the process of concentrating is working, but nothing to focus on. As unusual as it sounds it is actually possible (with some obvious difficulty). Ven moggallana was almost falling away from it, when the buddha intervened. Animitta is one of the doors to nibbaana, along with appanihitha (?) and sunnyata, and not nibbana itself in my understanding. metta Matheesha 52568 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8 buddhistmedi... Hi, Li (Attn. Nina, Htoo, and DSG's Pali scholars) - Thank you so much for trusting that I might know Pali (as the language, not just the vocabulary ) enough to translate the following. Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m [ from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8]. The PTS Dictionary cannot help me out this time, because it does not provide adequate translation for most of the words. But I have asked an able friend for help, and I think "the help" is on its way to my email inbox by tomorrow at the latest. Meanwhile, if any Pali scholars among us are kind enough to help Li (and Tep) translate this short passage sooner, please do. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wchangli" wrote: > > Hi Tep, could you help .... > Nina, thanks your words. > > warmest regards, > Li > (snipped) > > > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as > stated > > > below: > > > > > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, > aapaanan¡¦ > > > ti vutta.m. > > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa > > > pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > > > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > > > 52569 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:15pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (Attn. Matheesha, Swee, Kel) - I can see that you depend a great deal on only one source -- the Nyanatiloka' Buddhist Dictionary. >Jon: >There' s a lot out there in the internet, and I think we have to use our discretion in what we choose to consider. It's always best to check for references (and then read the cited text for oneself). Tep: But how can our "discretion" be reliable in the field that our practical experiences are lacking? .......................... >Jon: As I read this, Nyanatiloka does not consider 'meditation' to be a suitable translation of 'bhavana'. >Jon: I have not previously heard it suggested that the terms bhavana and kammatthana are identical in meaning. Tep: I have no idea that the Nyanatiloka Dictionary is considered more authoritative in its meditation view than the PTS and the other sources of my research (one of which is Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's famous work). Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - > > > >Your following comment in # 52387 motivated me to write this post. > > > >Jon: > >"I think that where the Buddha uses a 'neutral' term such > >as 'development', it is better to accept it as such rather than add a > >particular slant that is not apparent from the text or supported by the > >commentaries. Those who translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation' do a > >disservice to the reader, I believe." > > > >Tep: According to the PTS Dictionary, it is true that 'bhavana' has a > >meaning like 'developing by means of thought' and other soft > >meanings. However, the words 'meditation' and 'cultivation by mind' > >are also included in the PTS' basket of words. > > (snipped) 52570 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana kenhowardau Hi Alan McA, I see from your discussions that you are interested in formal meditation techniques. I will leave others help you with those because they are outside my field of interest. But are you aware that DSG is one of the few places in the world where you acquire an understanding of Dhamma-practice that does not involve formal techniques? To the beginner, it will always seem that the Pali Canon contains conventional teachings that can be followed in conventional ways. This will lead him to practice formal meditation practices even though there is no mention of them in the actual texts. However, with the aid of the ancient commentaries it is possible to see that the Buddha's Dhamma is entirely without self. It is without a self that practises (or doesn't practise) meditation, and without a self that becomes (or doesn't become) enlightened. I won't be offended if you are not interested in this strictly-not- self version of the Dhamma - very few people are. Even at DSG, most of us prefer to swap stories about meditation experiences. But if you are interested to know what (for example) K Sujin is talking about in the "Dhamma in Cambodia" thread, you have only to ask. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Alan McAllister wrote: > > ... > This seems to be a different slant. One could determine that one would only meditate on one of these types of objects (e.g., feelings) and make that general category, in a sense, the home object, but this would be an exercise and not the full echinalada, as it were. Vipassana is supposed to be open ended, and, in that sense, inclusive of "everything." The idea, as I understand it, is of "choiceless awareness," going where the mind goes, but sustaining attention on the object that predominates until it disappears or is replaced by a stronger object. > > I stand to be corrected. > > Alan McA > 52571 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I always have a mixed view about having too much analytical thinking and extending too far from the original scope in the suttas. Sometimes, the Co itself is too long and boring. >N: We can check this ourselves by clenching the teeth and putting the tongue agains the palate. What appears? What types of cittas? It is the citta that matters. It may be akusala citta with attachment to the idea of wanting to be a good person, or kusala cittas with awareness. Tep: It might be so for a person who has not understood the Teachings well enough. I think I see it differently. Let's say: now I am having trouble with a strong kama-vitakka that refuses to subside, even after my having tried all the four steps in MN 20. 1. "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful". But it has failed, so I must go to the second step. 2. "If evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts ..." But it has failed too, so I must go to the third step. And so on .... Then the fourth step ["attend to the relaxing of thought- fabrication with regard to those thoughts"] has failed as well. So now I have no choice but to remain firm, not yielding to the akusala vitakka. However, I do not see any "akusala citta with attachment to the idea of wanting to be a good person", only a concentrated effort for "the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen" as stated in DN 22 (samma-vayamo). It is a pure and simple fact, there is work to do and no time to think about "there are not my teeth, my palate, no self who presses the teeth" as suggested. It is too analytical -- in reality I only focus all attention to fight with the "evil thoughts". ........................ >N: When the bhikkhu is discouraged about his unwholesome thoughts he can be inspired when he thinks of the excellent qualities of the Buddha. These thoughts will cause him to be full of enthusiasm and they will strengthen his confidence and dedication to the Master. Tep: Now, that is very helpful ! I think we may call such Buddhanusati a "direct meditation" as described in SN XLVII.10: Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta. ("When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated".) Like you have noted earlier, it is the citta that matters. 'Direct meditation' is directing the citta to a kusala nimitta. .................... >N: The Commentary explains that if he still cannot abandon unwholesome thoughts, he can take out things such as matches from his shoulderbag and can think of another object, considering: this is a match that is above, and this is one that is underneath. Tep: I think what the Co describes is similar to the step 1 in MN 20, i.e. to "attend to another theme, apart from that one[of akusala vitakka], connected with what is skillful". (The inserted words are mine.) ................... >N: (next time more suttas). Tep: Great ! I really like this idea of suttas reviewing, so please continue. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > I also appreciate our discussions on asubha saññaa. > I have a few more thoughts to add and I came across some suttas that I think relevant. (snipped) 52572 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:06pm Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > N: The stages of insight arise in order, thus, first the first stage. Tender > insight, taru.na vipassanaa, meaning, a beginning insight. There are three > stages of them and after that there is mahaa-vipassanaa, principal insight, > clearly realizing the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Thanks for explaining this again (and again and again) > She said: against our expectations or beyond expectations. When we have > expectations or want to do things to induce insight, it does not arise for > sure. It is anattaa, beyond control. Yes, no doubt about this. Recently I have said that there can be benefits from abstaining from gross akusala even without understanding - which may or may not contradict A. Sujin, I don't know and it doesn't matter - but to hope for sati without understanding is a contradiction in terms. Sati is not thinking about sati, or wanting sati. > Right understanding of seeing, visible > object etc. has to be developed on and on so that it can develop more and > paññaa can become insight, direct understanding. There is no other way. I am having Dhamma doubts these days but whenever I read the Buddha talking about paramattha dhammas (especially ayatanas, these days, still) or hear A. Sujin talking about them the doubt fades for awhile. There is no doubt in my mind that liberation comes through developing understanding, not by doing this and that by following instructions without understanding in the belief that it will work for me because it worked for this or that renowned teacher. > As I understood from Kh Sujin, when vipassanaa ñaana arises, there are > several moments of understanding arising in mind-door processes. At such > moments it is very clear that there is no world, only nama and rupa that > appear very clearly, and no idea of self who experiences. But, she said, > when the moments of vipassana ñaana have fallen away, the world appears as > usual. > Does this answer your question? You have explained it very clearly, as always but I will forget it in several minutes, as always. I heard you say in a talk that you feel you don't explain things well enough, and Azita said that it is the conditions of others that make for the understanding or lack of it, not your explanation. Essentially, I don't have understanding of these difficult topics yet, but trying hard to understand won't do it. Listening is good because I can hear the same difficult points come up again and again without having to ask A. Sujin to explain again and again. Whereas I ask you to explain here again and again and again and again. But I know that helps you (and others) too, so I don't worry about it too much. Phil 52573 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana ksheri3 High All, I just had a marvey time reading the post I'm responding to and found, in my own way, a statement: "The path to the Deathless is awareness; Unawareness, the path of death. They who are not aware no not die; They who are unaware are as dead." Dhammapada What I find so interesting, yet typical for my HGA and myself, was that I read the post and could only think of The Upanishads, most specifically the Katha Upanishad wher Nachiketa negociates with The King Of Death for the three wishes he was granted. I have underlined many things and they all appear to be coming from the parts spoken by The King Of Death. You may appreciate this since this is right up there with cause & effect "The senses derive from physical objects, physical objects from mind, mind from intllect, intellect from ego, ego from the unmanifested seed, and the unmanifested seed from Brahman--the Uncaused Cause." "The Self-Existent made the senses turn outward. Accordingly, man looks toward what is without, and sees not what is within. Rare is he who, long for mimmortality, shuts his eyes to what is without and beholds the Self "Fools follow the desres of the flesh and fall into the snare of all- encompasing death; but the wise, knowing the Self as eternal, seek not the things that pass away." Death can be seen as many things yet we all got it comin', since there really isn't that much room any longer for people to grow food, maybe it was for people to throw out garbage, no, maybe it was for people to bury their oh so fond relatives, I could be wrong, since I'm oh so very wrong about everything, but I do believe you're running out of space, land, to place things. Hong Kong, you know how to solve the problem though, huh? Didn't you build an airport recently? Isn't Kobe Japan built on a landfill? hmmmmm? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > <...> > Tep: > > Ng Boon Huat in message #52532 summarizes samatha and > vipassana (related to satipatthana ) as well as the kind of meditation > objects. Therefore, I think your concern above is already addressed > by Huat. > > However, if there is anything else that is not covered by Huat's > message #52532 and that I should explain, then just let me know. I'll be > glad to respond appropriately. <...> 52574 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 0:51am Subject: The Mindful Way - video including i/v with Ajahn Chah christine_fo... Hello All, Bhikkhu Pesala advises that he has made available a video on his website: "The Mindful Way" - Including an interview with Ajahn Chah This video is about 36 Mbytes and lasts for 19 minutes. If you're thinking of ordaining in the Thai Forest tradition, or indeed in any tradition, it is worth watching. Bhante states that he will have to remove it after a few days to make space for other files. The Mindful Way http://aimwell.org/assets/themindfulway.wmv Original Host Page http://www.atamma.org/homeframenormal.htm metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 52575 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:21am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 313- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [g] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] When there is stinginess there is a cramped state of mind, one cannot stretch out one’s hand in order to give a gift. The proximate cause of avarice is one’s own property, whereas, as we have seen, the proximate cause of envy is someone else’s prosperity. When there is avarice one is unable to share what one has (or will acquire) with someone else. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi smallchap, op 17-11-2005 16:02 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: So until I attain jhana, I wouldn't be able to give a satisfactory > answer to your question. ------ N: That is a good answer. ----------- s: It is like asking, why you need to be a monk? I have been a > temporary monk before, 7 times in all. And I can answer in > confidence, it is not the question of need. ------- N:Oh, that must have been very difficult fo you. You must have accumulations for monkhood, stemming from former lives. But as I understand, these days it is very hard to find a monastery where perfect Vinaya is kept. The late Ven. Dhammadharo had great difficulties and also James could not find a suitable place. ------ S: I am really in no position to say if I need to have jhana. > On a personal level, as of now I don't think I need to have jhana > but if I can attain jhana without neglecting my vipassana, why not? -------- N: This sounds sensible. Those in the Buddha's time who had accumulated skill for jhana found it a support for vipassana. But, as I said to Matheesha, for me jhana is only theory. As Sukin said, we all have different inclinations and will follow those anyway. Whatever practice one takes to has been conditioned already. --------- M: If my teacher were to say to me now: "smallchap, I will teach you > jhana." I would gladly learn it. ------ N: I feel that here might be a problem. How do we know that the teacher teaches the real jhana? There can be different supranormal or mystical experiences as a result of concentration, but these may not be the real jhana and they may result from concentration with attachment. I also think of Christian mystics, like Theresa of Avila and others. They had visions and this is quite possible. I feel concern, because a jhana teacher was on several lists and then I heard that he had suicidal inclinations. So I think that one has to be very careful with jhana practice. Lobha is bound to play us tricks all the time. Extraordinary experiences can lead to mental disturbance. Perhaps there is a way to check one's cittas. Jhana must lead to detachment to sense pleasures. Does one truly want to lead a life free from sense pleaures, such as music, nice food, the confort of one's home, the company of friends? In the last instance one has to verify the truth for oneself. ***** Nina. 52577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 17-11-2005 23:51 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > N:yes I also think the arupa jhanas are referred to. But as to > animitta, I >> take it that this is nibbaana. > M: Animitta is one of the doors to nibbaana, along with appanihitha (?) > and sunnyata, and not nibbana itself in my understanding. ------- N: The subject is above my head, and I only understand the theory. So, I should not say much about it. I can quote Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas on this subject that is based on Visuddhimagga and also on Patisambhidamagga. Taking it form Rob K's web, Abhidhamma Vipassana: Thus, I think we should distinguish between animitta and animitta vimokkha. When reading your sutta quote we read about arahatship. This cannot be attained, as you know, without the realization of the three characteristics by vipassanaa. _______ M: I have seen animitta, and following that, nirodha, in these > jhana descriptions. I think these are two different things. I think the > latter is nibbana (not 100% certain). The animitta is a type of samadhi > ('animittta samadhi'), while the other is a (nirodha) samapatti. -------- N: Again, I only know the theory, but I quote again from Survey. Three samaapattis: jhana-samaapatti, phaala-samaapatti, nirodha-samaapatti. As you say, Nibbana can also be designated as nirodha, cessation. As to nirodha-samaapatti I read: ---------- M: IMO it [N: animitta] > is a type of one-pointedness without an object, where only the process > of concentrating is working, but nothing to focus on. As unusual as it > sounds it is actually possible (with some obvious difficulty). Ven > moggallana was almost falling away from it, when the buddha intervened. ---------- N: I see that animitta is translated as themelesness, but this translation is misleading. I think there cannot be any citta without experiencing an object. Object-condition conditions each citta, according to the Patthana. (Compare U Narada Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 100. ) About Moggallana I only know that he was nodding with sleep and had to attend to the perception of light. *** Nina. 52578 From: "wchangli" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:28am Subject: Re: difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8 wchangli Tep, Nina, Htoo and anyone, I have noticed that there are different wording,arrangement & extra information from CSCD version on this sentence: niddese (pa.ti ma.1.160) pana naa-kaarassa diighattamajjhupekkhitvaa aapaananti. BUT, I still have no idea about this sentence! regards, Li --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Li (Attn. Nina, Htoo, and DSG's Pali scholars) - > > Thank you so much for trusting that I might know Pali (as the language, > not just the vocabulary ) enough to translate the following. > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; > assaasa passaasa pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m > [ from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8]. > > The PTS Dictionary cannot help me out this time, because it does not > provide adequate translation for most of the words. But I have asked > an able friend for help, and I think "the help" is on its way to my email > inbox by tomorrow at the latest. > > Meanwhile, if any Pali scholars among us are kind enough to help Li > (and Tep) translate this short passage sooner, please do. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > > ======= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wchangli" > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, could you help .... > > Nina, thanks your words. > > > > warmest regards, > > Li > > > (snipped) > > > > > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as > > stated > > > > below: > > > > > > > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, > > aapaanan¡¦ > > > > ti vutta.m. > > > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa > passaasa > > > > pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > > > > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > > > > > 52579 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: The Mindful Way - video including i/v with Ajahn Chah christine_fo... Hello All, Bhikkhu Pesala advises that due to the overwhelming response he has had to make the decision to remove the link from his site, before his server goes into meltdown. It still remains available at: http://www.atamma.org/homeframenormal.htm metta cooran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello All, > > Bhikkhu Pesala advises that he has made available a video on his > website: > "The Mindful Way" - Including an interview with Ajahn Chah > > This video is about 36 Mbytes and lasts for 19 minutes. > If you're thinking of ordaining in the Thai Forest tradition, or > indeed in any tradition, it is worth watching. > Bhante states that he will have to remove it after a few days to > make space for other files. > > The Mindful Way > http://aimwell.org/assets/themindfulway.wmv > Original Host Page > http://www.atamma.org/homeframenormal.htm > > metta, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 52580 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:46am Subject: Sublime is Friendship ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Unique and Sublime is Friendship: Friendship is really thee GREATEST here...!!! Friendship motivates the entire Noble life. Friendship is quite synergistic symbiosis. Some verses from Sutta Pitaka about Friendship: Follow only the Good Ones, Associate only with the Clever Ones, To learn the Truth from these Nobles gives an advantage like nothing else. To follow the fools & thereby copy & choose the bad ways, to know no Good Friends, is causing only Misery. As if one strings rotten fish on a straw of grass, this grass will soon smell putrid too. Exactly so with one, who follows fools. As if one wraps up perfume in a common leaf, this leaf will soon smell sweet too. Exactly so with one, who follows the Wise. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52581 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) sukinderpal Dear Joop, You seem not to want to discuss some old topics, but there are so many points I feel like addressing. So I hope you do not mind that I just make some general remarks. And you can respond to only what you like. ========================= "Vipassana Meditation". -------------------------------- This in the world today, refers to what you describe: "That is: sitting or walking observing, noting and labeling all phenomena that arise and pass away, one by one. And with the increased mindfulnes as a result of daily doing that I can be more mindful in daily life too." However as far as I know, there is nothing corresponding to this in the Texts. Vipassana according to the dictionary is: • vipassaná 'insight', is the intuitive light flashing forth and exposing the truth of the impermanency, the suffering and the impersonal and unsubstantial nature of all corporeal and mental phenomena of existence. It is insight- wisdom (vipassaná-paññá) that is the decisive liberating factor in Buddhism, though it has to be developed along with the 2 other trainings in morality and concentration. The culmination of insight practice (s. visuddhi VI) leads directly to the stages of holiness (s. visuddhi VII). So this is actually a reference to very highly developed "wisdom" and not any act of `noting'. Doesn't this tell you something about the level of understanding behind this "meditation movement"? I find that there is an increasing need to be more precise when trying to understand the Teachings. But here we see not only vagueness, but an altogether misleading term, and millions just follow what is then taught from there…. This is why I pointed out to the possibility of being lead to conclusions about the role of `formal mediation' in Buddhist teachings due to wrong understanding. And again this is not about `first' understanding correctly the theory and then deciding to meditate. Correct theory will condition an understanding that there is no `self' who decides to study and likewise none who decides then to practice. And indeed there is no line of demarcation between these two such that at some point there is a leaving behind of one and movement towards the other. It is just dhammas performing their function some of which leave the impression that there is a self who can decide to do things. The practice, as far as the Teachings are concerned, is "Satipatthana". This again refers not to any practice of `noting', but a high level of wisdom and mindfulness. Many may accept that satipatthana though it is not there at the beginning of practice (meditation), is attained through this initial act of noting whatever is arising. But this is all in one's thinking only!! It is just another story about Dhamma, woven in part because there is no precise understanding about causes and conditions. With the study of Abhidhamma we learn to be more precise. And according to this, we know that merely intending to note does not make sati arise. That which we call mindfulness is not the sati and panna as taught by the Buddha. If indeed we do not even bother to find out if this flow of cittas which seem to all of a sudden arise so easily (being mindful) is kusala or akusala, then how can we ever be certain that this is going to lead to the satipatthana?! It is just seems to be wishful thinking to me. But we *can* have correct intellectual understanding of all this, and this is the beginning of the correct path being taken. One of the functions of pariyatti is to correct our understanding of the Dhamma increasingly, and one of the effects is to then avoid taking the wrong path of practice. Yes, intellectual understanding is not going to do the job of the actual practice which is satipatthana. But this does not mean that we then pursue this "idea" of practice! With correct understanding we would know that `practice' (a moment of satipatthana) is a conditioned reality and does not arise merely by deciding to have or do it. We may even come to realize at such moments, that such thinking is conditioned by `self view'. And so even if this comes with the realization that nothing can be done (by self) to hasten development, but because at these moments one understands the limitations of `self', patience, courage and good cheer can arise ;-). What do you think, can akusala result in the development of kusala and can self view lead to right view? =============================== "'Doing' / `Letting things happen' / `understanding'." ----------------------------------------------------------------- It is true that `letting things happen' can be conditioned by self view, and so in such a case this would be the same as any decision to `do'. So too when someone says, to `understand'. But `understanding' understands and at such moments there is no self view. It is not a decision to understand, but the understanding itself knows that it can arise only by conditions. When knowing this intellectually, it may already be a level of panna. And thinking correctly along these lines, leads to the conclusion over and over again about the importance of "understanding" from the very beginning. And of course we are always urged to begin again. ;-) This leads me to the next topic: ================================ "Right Understanding can arise only with other wholesome factors" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- The Noble Eightfold Path refers to a moment of citta where all the path factors arise together. There can't be panna without sati, and the effort, concentration and thought (not the best word for vitakka cetasika) necessary to perform their respective functions, must also all be right. However, because sati and panna arise with only kusala cittas, and because there can be moments of kusala without panna, panna is stressed. Of course, any meaningful statement about panna can only be made with some level of panna itself. So, even intellectual understanding must be with a level of panna and here too it is accompanied by a corresponding level of other wholesome factors, sati, viriya, vitakka and samadhi. =================================== "Experiencing vs. Understanding" -------------------------------------------- Citta `knows' the object of experience quite different from the way panna does. For example at a moment of seeing, citta sees "clearly" just that object. Panna on the other hand, depending on the level, knows "what it is". Citta does not distinguish between say, this is sound and this is visible object, it simply does the function of experiencing, but panna understands what is what, i.e. as different dhammas. So when you talk about experiencing `impermanence' as being something separate from `understanding' it, you are talking about that which is impossible to happen. The kind of citta with impermanence as object must be accompanied by the highest level of panna. Meanwhile `understanding' impermanence can be developed on many levels, which may not actually involve the experience of rise and fall of any citta. What a lot of people think to be the experience of `anicca' is in fact just thinking about it. They may see something arising and falling, but "understanding" anicca is quite different from seeing something rise and fall. At the highest level, it comes with full understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa and about conditionality. So I think it is something much deeper than we would like to imagine. One must therefore question not only claims to such experiences, but also ideas such as "develop concentration in order to experience rise and fall". Anicca after all is a characteristic of a reality, nama or rupa. So such a mind that understands anicca must also have understood nama as nama and rupa as rupa and therefore will not overlook the importance of first understanding these. One who therefore keeps talking about "experiencing" the Tilakkhana, may in fact be quite lost in his own ideas about Dhamma. My cold is bothering me quite a bit now, so I will finish here. :-( Metta, Sukin 52583 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8/ Han Tun buddhistmedi... Hi, Li (Attn. Nina) - I have got help from my friend, Dr. han Tun, as shown in his email below. He always makes Pali translation seems so easy. Best wishes, Tep ======= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 01:20:18 -0800 (PST) From: "han tun" Subject: Re: I have no clue ! To: "Tep Sastri" Dear Tep, I have never translated Pali into English. The Pali words that I had inserted from time to time were the Pali words written in Burmese script which I just transcribed them into English. Anyway, "tasmim aanaapaane sati, aanaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa pariggaahi-kaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m." is the definition of "aanaapaana-sati." The nearest translation would be: "aanapaana-sati is the name of sati on out-breath and in-breath of the body.' I cannot find a satisfactory English word for "pariggaaha". Literally it means wrapping round, enclosing, taking up, seizing on, acquiring. It may be logical to say "out-breath and in-breath which are the vital functions of the body." But it will not give the correct meaning of "pariggaaha." With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ..................................................... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wchangli" wrote: > > Hi Tep, could you help .... > Nina, thanks your words. > > warmest regards, > Li > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Li, > > please would you ask one of the Pali experts on the Pali list? > > Those sentences are not easy. > > Tep could explain to you about the meaning of the long breath, he > made studies of this subject. > > I have the Co. to the Patisambidha in Thai, but now I have great > lack of time. > > Nina. > > op 13-11-2005 14:40 schreef wchangli op wchangli@y...: > > > > > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as > stated below: > > > > > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, > aapaanan¡¦ ti vutta.m. > > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa passaasa pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > > > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > > > > > > 52584 From: nina Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:46am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 199 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 199 Intro. In this section feelings are distinguished as to gross and subtle with regard to the jaati they belong to. These are: kusala, akusala or avyaakata, indeterminate. The jaati that is avyaakata includes vipaaka, result, and kiriya, inoperative. Text Vis. 199: (a) 'According to kind', [jaati] firstly: unprofitable feeling is a state of disquiet, because it is the cause of reprehensible actions and because it produces burning of defilement, so it is 'gross' [compared] with profitable feeling. And because it is accompanied by interestedness and drive and result, and because of the burning of the defilements, and because it is reprehensible, it is gross compared with resultant indeterminate. ------- N: The Tiika explains as to the words, the cause of reprehensible actions, that this is said to differententiate akusala feeling from kusala feeling. The interestedness (literally, engagement), effort (ussaha) and result, meaning, producing result, is also common to kusala. But Œbeing the cause of reprehensible actions¹ (saavajjakiriyahetuto) only pertains to akusala. As to reprehensable actions, the Tiika mentions killing and so on. It states that akusala feeling is coarse in comparison with kusala feeling that is peaceful. N: When the citta is akusala, there is no peace and also the accompanying feeling, saññaa and other cetasikas are not peaceful. As to the expression drive or effort, this means, according to the Tiika, that it has power, that it is capable of producing vipaaka. This pertains to akusala citta and the accompanying feeling and the other cetasikas. ----------- Text Vis.: Also because it is accompanied by result, because of the burning of the defilements, and because it is attended by affliction and is reprehensible, it is gross compared with functional indeterminate. -------- N: As to the expression attended by affliction (savyaabajjhato), the Tiika explains: afflicted by the dukkha of defilements. The functional indeterminate feeling is the feeling accompanying kiriyacitta, inoperative citta. This does not produce vipaaka, and therefore it is subtle compared to akusala feeling. ---------- Text Vis.: But in the opposite sense profitable and indeterminate feeling are subtle compared with unprofitable feeling. -------- N: The Tiika mentions that this is so because they are not the cause of reprehensable action, not burning because of defilements, not attended by affliction and they are not states of disquiet. -------- Text Vis.: Also the two, that is, profitable and unprofitable feeling, involve interestedness, drive and result, so they are respectively gross compared with the twofold indeterminate. ------- N: The twofold indeterminate are the feelings that are vipaaka and kiriya. --------- Text Vis.: And in the opposite sense the twofold indeterminate is subtle compared with them. This, firstly, is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to kind. -------- N: The Tiika explains that feeling that is vipaaka is without engagement and without effort, it is not accompanying cittas that are cause, namely, kusala citta or akusala citta. It is without engagement as to kamma through body etc. and without effort. As to feeling that is kiriya, inoperative, kiriya is a dhamma that does not produce result. The dhamma that produces result is coarse, it is as it were pregnant (sagabbha). Kamma is also compared to a womb that will produce fruit. ----------- Conclusion: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas, including feeling, can be of four jaatis. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas that arise together are of the same jaati. Thus, akusala citta is accompanied by feeling that is also akusala. We should remember that what is stated about feeling also pertains to the other naama khandhas of saññaa, sa.nkhaarakkhandha (the other cetasikas) and viññaa.na or citta. The four naama khandhas arise and fall away together and are closely connected. Thus, whenever we read about citta, we should know that the accompanying cetasikas are included. Not only citta motivates wholesome or unwholesome actions, also the accompanying cetasikas do while they assist the citta. That is why we read in the Visuddhimagga text that akusala feeling is the cause of reprehensible actions. The same can be said of saññaa and the other naama khandhas. This passage of the Visuddhimagga reminds us of the disadvantages of akusala citta and accompanying cetasikas, being without peace, the cause of reprehensible action, and capable of producing unpleasant result. Lobha-muulacitta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling and we are bound to like this kind of feeling. However, we forget that it is affliced by the dukkha of defilements, that it is burning because of defilements. It leads to sorrow. When lobha-muulacitta is accompanied by indifferent feeling, this feeling may seem to be peaceful, but in reality it is a state of disquiet, it is akusala. It is difficult to know indifferent feeling and to realize of what jaati it is, we are usually ignorant of it. Feeling is a reality and it can be the object of satipatthaana. This is the only way to understand it as it is. ******* Nina. 52585 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Hallo Nina, Matheesha Nina: "The subject is above my head, and I only understand the theory. So, I should not say much about it." Joop: I'm glad you are saying this: I don't even understand the theory. I have a simple way of reasoning, like this: The fact that the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121) is included in the Nikayas must have a reason, it must have a funtion for wordlings. The Buddha can not have meant it as a meditation-instruction for us, it skips to much in a way only arahats can get at the end-level the Buddha described in this Sutta. So it must have another function. And I think that contemplating emptiness is a good guess. (To be honest, I hope it is because then this Sutta can link Theravada with Mahayana in which sunyate plays such an important role.) So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far away to bother. Metta Joop 52586 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi Nina, --------- N: I see that animitta is translated as themelesness, but this translation is misleading. I think there cannot be any citta without experiencing an object. M: If you would read the sutta below: "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- undertaken by me as my awareness-release, still my consciousness follows the drift of signs.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an06-013.html M: Awareness-release (cetovimutti) as far as I understand refers to development of arupa-jhana. Also: 'Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of wilderness, not attending to the perception of earth -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space... (and so on through the four levels of formless jhana. Then:) further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception -- attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness. M: This seems to suggest animitta Samadhi as a form of samatha. (more on this below) 'He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness... that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is void... (etc.)' Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness. He discerns that 'This signless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to stopping.' For him -- thus knowing, thus seeing -- the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' M: He seems to employ vipassana/satipatthana based on this animitta Samadhi, sees anicca and attain nibbana. Again the above paragraph seems to suggest that animitta Samadhi itself is not a type of vipassana, but samatha, or maybe a transitional stage of both. It maybe possible to call the nibbana thus attained (or should it be the release thus attained?) animitta vimokkha. (Nibbaba should be unclassifiable further?) M: you said: `I think there cannot be any citta without experiencing an object.' M: Nevesanna-na-nasannayatana (?!) is a situation where the citta barely experiences an object as far as I understand. It seems only logical that the next step up is animitta (please don't ask me the mechanisms though!). The final being nirodha where there is no object. So to me it makes sense that these are part of one progression into nibbana. What the Buddha was searching for when alarakalama and uddaka ramaputta's arupa jhana was not enough. The only way to get there being weakening of samyojana of the mind (binding on to dhammas, reaching out to dhammas, participating in giving rise to them) by seeing arising and passing away, leading to nibbida/the mind violently rejecting all dhammas in its realization of their nature (characteristics), and reaching for the unarising and that which does not pass away – where no conditioning is observed, indeed, nothing is/can be observed. So it makes sense that animitta is indeed very close to such a state. The progression of the jhanas are states of letting go from the very beginning. First sensual pleasure is seen as a drawback –this leads to the first jhana, then vitakka vicara is seen as a drawback, this leads to the second jhana etc. So understanding the process of jhanas is deeply rooted in the mechanisms of nibbana IMO. The mind `physically' gives up on objects in the end and the Samadhi gives the `stregnth' required for this incredible push which only arises when the true nature of dhammas are realised. Every moment is dukkha. As long as there is interest in the world vinnana will always proliferate, with its eternal running to catch dhammas like a little child enthralled with its envioronment. This movement is the power of the samyojanas IMO. Just seeing the three characteristics isn't enough. It has to affect the thinking process, the brain cells, for proliferation to stop. Then there will be peace. This is my understanding for now. Thank you for brigning up this topic. My thinking has clarified further as a result. The description of the 3 vimokkhas in your post was lovely to read. Metta Matheesha N: About Moggallana I only know that he was nodding with sleep and had to attend to the perception of light. *** M:Sorry I don't have the sutta, but here is an excerpt from a booklet about his life: For attaining to the "Liberation of Mind" (ceto-vimutti) the absorption led him to the eight Liberations (vimokkha), culminating in the four formless (immaterial) absorptions (arupajjhana). On his way to become one "Liberated in Both Ways" (that is through both concentration and insight),[5] he used the fourth absorption as basis for both. In doing so, he gained the "Signless Concentration of Mind,"[6] which is free from all that marks (or signifies) conditioned existence and which affords a glimpse of the "Signless Element," Nibbana (Samy. 40,9). But this attainment, too, was not final as yet. For even here he lapsed into a subtle enjoyment of it. Such refined attachment is still a delusive "sign" or "mark" superimposed on a high spiritual attainment of greatest purity. But aided by the Master's instructions, he could free himself from these last fetters and attain to perfect "Deliverance of Mind" and "Deliverance by Wisdom," in all their fullness and depth. Thus the venerable Maha-Moggallana had become one of the Saints. He admitted that he could well say about himself that "Supported by the Master a disciple may obtain the great state of the super- knowledges."[7] http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/lib/bps/wheels/wheel26 3.html#n6 52587 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) jwromeijn Dear Sukin Thanks for your (again) long letter. I hope you take care with your health and energy, perhaps writing me gives energy to you. Sukin: "You seem not to want to discuss some old topics, but there are so many points I feel like addressing. So I hope you do not mind that I just make some general remarks." Joop: There are two reason that I sometimes hesitate (I will not use the term 'doubt' in a letter to you) to discuss some topics. The first is that it is not 'my' topic, that my buddhistic intuition doesn't say that it is not relevant to me on this moment. The second is that I must have the comviction that a discussion about a special topic between a special person (for example you) and me must be fruitful. For example: discussions between me and most DSG- participants about rebirth are not fruitful. So again some remarks at some quotes. Best to start with the NEP Sukin: "The Noble Eightfold Path refers to a moment of citta where all the path factors arise together. There can't be panna without sati, and the effort, concentration and thought (not the best word for vitakka cetasika) necessary to perform their respective functions, must also all be right. However, because sati and panna arise with only kusala cittas … Joop: I prefer to discuss the NEP as explained by the Buddha in the Suttas, for example in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Here the Buddha uses the metaphore of the Path and a path is something we had to walk, so being active on it. Maybe that factors arise as a result of my efforts to do the aspects of the Path. Good examples are "right resolve", "right speech" and "right action" Sukin: "What do you think, can akusala result in the development of kusala and can self view lead to right view?" Joop: We call this a 'retoric question', the answer can only be 'no'. But 'self view' is not something that bothers me: the anatta-doctrine is so evident to me In fact I think 'no self' is an obsession for many DSG-members; to me it is so evident that there is no need spending much time to it. The NEP brings me to the topic of 'formal meditation'. Two aspects are "right mindfulness" which to me is combination of vipassana-meditation plus being mindful in daily life; and "right concentration" which is to me samatha meditation. Do you have any quote from the Suttas that this a wrong interpretation? Of course, doing only vipassana-meditation is not enough, but ity is an important aspect. (And that some people say 'vipassana' when they mean '(formal) vipassana meditation' is only a linguistic problem. 'Formal' is a term I don't like but means to me: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out."; you will recognize the source. I'm afraid your interpretation of vipassana-meditation is to much the Abhidhamma (or even "visuddhi", a source that does not have much authority to me) and to little the Suttas. Sukin: "Doesn't this tell you something about the level of understanding behind this "meditation movement"? I find that there is an increasing need to be more precise when trying to understand the Teachings. But here we see not only vagueness, but an altogether misleading term, and millions just follow what is then taught from there…." Joop: DSG is the best place to discuss the use or not-use of vipassana-meditation. I will even tell more about my practice and my need to combine it with other aspects of the NEP. But not in the way you 'propose' in which there are two groups: the pro's and the contra's. I also like to discuss the sociological relation between the rise of the 'vipassana-movement' and the modernisation in the 20est century, but that must be a discussion with much arguments and less opinions (And I think the quotes from Teachings of the Buddha are sometimes an argument but many times a subjective interpretating opinion) Some weeks ago Christine brought to our attention the book of Bhikkhu Sujato, "A history of mindfulnes'; perhaps this book is a good startingpoint for a pure discussion in which I like to participate? (http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings.php) One more point, about "Experiencing vs. Understanding" You are giving a long explanation on your statement "Citta `knows' the object of experience quite different from the way panna does." But I don't understand it with my knowledge I got from BB's Guide in the Abhidhammata Sangaha. Sukin: "So when you talk about experiencing `impermanence' as being something separate from `understanding' it, you are talking about that which is impossible to happen. The kind of citta with impermanence as object must be accompanied by the highest level of panna." Joop: Perhaps you can have a look at what I have been writing on 'emptiness' in another thread. Sukin: "What a lot of people think to be the experience of `anicca' is in fact just thinking about it. They may see something arising and falling, but "understanding" anicca is quite different from seeing something rise and fall. …." Joop: I know the difference between 'experiencing' and 'understanding', so forget this point. Sukin: "One must therefore question not only claims to such experiences, but also ideas such as "develop concentration in order to experience rise and fall". Joop: Mindfulnes (in vipassana-meditation) , not concentration (in samatha-meditation) Sukin: "Anicca after all is a characteristic of a reality, nama or rupa. So such a mind that understands anicca must also have understood nama as nama and rupa as rupa and therefore will not overlook the importance of first understanding these. " Joop: Of course, but I refuse to think that distinguishing nama from rupa is very difficult! Metta Joop 52588 From: nina Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:34am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, ------ footnotes: 1. The suttas deal with the teaching and its application in daily life. The Buddha spoke, for example, about dukkha in daily life, about the loss of family and friends through death. He would speak about dukkha because of change, viparinåma dukkha, when people were ready to understand this. If people had developed more understanding he would speak about the five khandhas that are impermanent and thus dukkha. The purpose of the study of the Suttanta is knowing the characteristics of realities appearing now, the khandhas, dhåtus (elements), åyatanas (sense-fields), thus nåma and rúpa. Also in the Suttanta Abhidhamma is taught. 2. The Buddha taught in the Suttanta the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. When hiri, ottappa and saddhå arise, one sees the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. ****** Nina. 52589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nilovg Hi Charles D, op 17-11-2005 18:15 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > You are right 100%, but then due the suttra claim it is the complete > explanation? I have to ask; can a person with wisdom suffer or be the cause > of suffering? ------ N: See Dh in Cambodia today for the meanings of dukkha. Someone with wisdom who is not an arahat will be reborn, he is not freed from dukkha: there will be arising of nama and rupa in rebirth. I am thinking of sankhara dukkha. -------- Ch: Can a person without the inner strength to follow her Buddha inspired wisdom > suffer or be the cause of suffering? > > My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of > either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This > is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 > areas. ------ N: Many ways to view D.O. Multiple causes and multiple fruits as we read in the Vis. Noy just one cause and one fruit. Not all factors are mentioned in each instance. Nina. 52590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation nilovg Hi Matheesha, thank you for all the trouble analysing the sutta. There is a lot here to think over and for now I have not much to say. I appreciate your efforts. Since I am out for the whole day tomorrow, I have to delay reacting to posts. The link does not work and I would like to read the sutta in the PTS translation. I do not always agree with access to i. Some terms are not clear. Nina. op 18-11-2005 16:30 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although > the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken > as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- > undertaken by me as my awareness-release, still my consciousness > follows the drift of signs.' 52591 From: "Leo" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:38am Subject: Meditations - Mindfullness Uncertainty leoaive Hi I am practicing many meditations and contemplations. Some time ago, I purchased some books, that contain Four Fundation of Mindfulness sutta. I am practicing it partly. I see some contradictions in regards to other suttas. Sometimes I am not sure about what is the right way or translation of that. The part of the sutta I am talking about: " When bhikkhu is walking, he uderstand: "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down." In this monent I am practicing making I. And it is constant making I would be my practice. Other suttas says something different: That is foolish to have attachement to I or me or body as "Me" or it is something will not die. Other suttas which are dealing with "Methods of Steadfast Mindfulness" are saying to keep Mind steadfastly On Body, with diligence, comrehension and mindfulness. So I see "Methods of Steadfast Minfulness" Suttas, like: -Discourse on Analysis -Discourse on Cultivation of Steadffast Mindfulness -Discourse on Knowing Rightly and Fully -Discourse on Arahatship -Discourse on Mindulness -Discourse on Cultivating of Steadfast Minfulness -Discourse on Desire -Discourse on Neglect of Steadfast Mindfulness -Discourse on Absence of Attachment -Discourse on Things Previously Unheard -Discourse with the reference on the Belle of the Land -Discourse concerning a Brahma -Discourse on Purifying Dhamma -Discourse given at Nalanda -Discourse concerning a monkey -Discourse conserning a falcon -Discourse on a Group of Demeritonous Factors -Discourse given at Sala are telling to contemplate ON BODY or ON MENTAL OBJECTS and so far. There is no talk about "I AM WALKING" It looks to me common way of Sattipathana is not translated very accurate, or there is some kind of mistake was done when it was recorded. I do not know Pali. (Only few words) I wish to know what do you think about it. With metta Leo 52592 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation/ Sankhara buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and Nina. Attn. Sarah) - Your discussion with Nina on 'animitta', 'ceto-vimutti', and development of 'arupa-jhana' is most interesting, although it is difficult to understand. But this discussion should continue for benefits of the interested audience. Below is a list of interesting (and exciting) concepts you have quoted from the suttas. Would you be kind enough to explain them for me? As Nina said, part of the difficulty may be due to the Pali translation. The main part, in my opinion, is due to lacking a clear picture of animitta samadhi. -- "... not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness." Questions: 1. What is a 'signless concentration of awareness'? 2. Is the "singleness" a citta or is it the object of citta in this case? ........................... -- "He discerns that 'This signless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to stopping.' " Question : What makes the signless concentration a 'sankhara' when there is neither perception nor non-perception? Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > --------- > N: I see that animitta is translated as themelesness, but this > translation > is misleading. I think there cannot be any citta without > experiencing an > object. > > M: If you would read the sutta below: > > "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although > the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken > as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- > undertaken by me as my awareness-release, still my consciousness > follows the drift of signs.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You > shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for > it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One > wouldn't say that. It's impossible, > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt > ara/an06-013.html > (snipped) 52593 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: Meditations - Mindfullness Uncertainty/ Mindful Awareness buddhistmedi... Hi, Leo - Your simple approach to asking a question is unique. You say there are contradictions in the suttas. But I think the "contradictions" are only in your minds. ............................... Leo : There is no talk about "I AM WALKING" [Tep: in the 18 suttas that Leo listed] It looks to me common way of Sattipathana is not translated very accurate, or there is some kind of mistake was done when it was recorded. Tep: The walking, sitting, standing, and lying down are considered as "body in the body". The meditator of the Four Fundation of Mindfulness contemplates, or "discerns", the various kinds of "body in the body", "feeling in the feeling", and so on. DN 22: "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? ... "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [endquote] Tep: Htoo listed the several contemplations of body in the body in his posts.[Please go to the Useful Post link to learn more.] The sentence "I am walking" only means that the meditator is fully aware of his/her walking posture (with full attention on the body while walking, such that he maintains mindful awareness in the body at that moment). I will try to do better, if the above explanation does not make sense to you. :-) Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > Hi > > I am practicing many meditations and contemplations. Some time ago, I > purchased some books, that contain Four Fundation of Mindfulness > sutta. I am practicing it partly. I see some contradictions in > regards to other suttas. Sometimes I am not sure about what is the > right way or translation of that. > The part of the sutta I am talking about: " When bhikkhu is walking, > he uderstand: "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he > is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When > sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns > that he is lying down." > In this monent I am practicing making I. And it is constant making I > would be my practice. > Other suttas says something different: That is foolish to have > attachement to I or me or body as "Me" or it is something will not > die. Other suttas which are dealing with "Methods of Steadfast > Mindfulness" are saying to keep Mind steadfastly On Body, with > diligence, comrehension and mindfulness. > So I see "Methods of Steadfast Minfulness" Suttas, like: > -Discourse on Analysis > -Discourse on Cultivation of Steadffast Mindfulness (snipped) 52594 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 3 philofillet Hi Nina and all > When anger arises, is there anybody who does not know this, even if he > does not study the Abhidhamma? When jealousy or stinginess arises, is it > necessary to study the Abhidhamma so that one knows it? People know it > without study, but they take these realities for self, and they do not know > that these are only different dhammas. This is what we were talking about recently, isn't it? Yes, perhaps we can know lobha, lobha can arise, but it will be my lobha. I am beginning to understand that a bit better. > Through the Abhidhamma method one can > come to understand that all realities are non-self.> Of course, even through the Abhidhamma method, it will still be my lobha until there is the first tender insight, knowing nama from rupa. But it seems to me that Abhidhamma helps to condition detachment from my lobha etc because there are fewer stories than in the suttas. Well, no stories, I guess. It is so easy to read suttas, especially in Anguttara Nikaya ("there are 4 kinds of people" etc) I find, and get caught up in stories about people, in which we are so deeply conditioned to have interest. Abhidhamma helps a little to loosen that attachment by offering us pure Dhamma free of stories. And when we return to the suttas after studying some Abhidhamma, we can see through the stories and conventional language a little better and avoid errors (or avoid them a little better) that come from our lobha-rooted interpretations - we can appreciate the importance of understanding paramattha dhammas such as ayatanas and dhatus because they are so in line with Abhidhamma. And as the Burmese monk linked to by Hal a few weeks ago says in his talk, when we reflect on "mental formations" khanda only by reading suttas, how can we understand what that means? The definitions of the khandas in the suttanta are really quite vague. Abhidhamma gives us a firmer grasp of the meaning of the khandas at the intellectual level, and this is an essential condition for more direct understanding later. Still a long, long way to go - so much lobha that we are standing (or sitting!) up to our necks in. I do deeply appreciate having coming across Abhidhamma thanks to this group, thanks to Nina's books. Phil 52595 From: connie Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken nichiconn dear Nina, Charles, other friends and adversaries, Charles: My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 areas. N: Many ways to view D.O. Multiple causes and multiple fruits as we read in the Vis. Noy just one cause and one fruit. Not all factors are mentioned in each instance. Nina. Connie: Another way (Petakopadesa, Nanamoli): "The consecutive order of the search" can be grouped into 3: 16 modes of conveying, 5 guide lines and 18 root terms where the 9 which are the Origin of Suffering (with Suffering as fruit) being Ignorance, craving, greed, hate, delusion; Perception of Beauty, of Pleasure, of Permanence, of Self and 9 are the Way Leading to Cessation (with Cessation as fruit): Quiet, insight, non-greed, non-hate, non-delusion; (the mindfulness-foundations:) Perception of Ugliness, of Pain, of Impermanence, of Not-Self. peace, connie 52596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] photos nilovg Hi Sarah (and Sukin) Thank you for the second lot of photos, I'll look at it with Lodewijk, but we are going out. Thank you also for the summary of Kh Sujin's last message. Now, I am doing a little cross reference of animitta, this because of my exchanges with Matheesha. Many texts really. I would very much like to have your post on the 12 animitta dhammas. One has to be so careful as to different contexts I find. Nina. op 17-11-2005 09:29 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > If I come across my reference to the 14 animitta dhammas again, starting > with nibbana of course, I’ll let you know. > 52597 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 0:45am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 314- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [h] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] There are five kinds of objects on account of which stinginess can arise. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (§1122) in its definition of the fetter of meanness: * "The five meannesses, (to wit) meanness as regards dwelling, families, gifts, reputation, dhamma— all this sort of meanness, grudging, mean spirit, avarice and ignobleness, niggardliness and want of generosity of heart— this is called the fetter of meanness." * The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 376), in its explanation of the words of the Dhammasangaùi, states that the mean person also hinders someone else from giving. Stinginess can motivate one to try to persuade someone else, for example one’s husband or wife, to give less or not to give at all. We read in the Atthasåliní: * "… and this also has been said, Malicious, miserly, ignoble, wrong… Such men hinder the feeding of the poor… "A “niggardly” person seeing mendicants causes his mind to shrink as by sourness. His state is “niggardliness”. Another way (of definition):- “niggardliness is a “spoon-feeding”. For when the pot is full to the brim, one takes food from it by a spoon with the edge bent on all sides; it is not possible to get a spoonful; so is the mind of a mean person bent in. When it is bent in, the body also is bent in, recedes, is not diffused— thus stinginess is said to be niggardliness. " “Lack of generosity of heart” is the state of a mind which is shut and gripped, so that it is not stretched out in the mode of making gifts, etc., in doing service to others. But because the mean person wishes not to give to others what belongs to himself, and wishes to take what belongs to others, therefore this meanness should be understood to have the characteristic of hiding or seizing one’s own property, occurring thus: “May it be for me and not for another”…" * ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52598 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Hallo Matheesha, Nina, Tep Still about "The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness"; MN 121 Nina (to Matheesha) : "thank you for all the trouble analysing the sutta …" Nina is always nice to people, but I think: how can a Sutta be analysed when the word most occurring in the Sutta, does not occur at all in the analysis: EMPTINESS Maybe your answers to Nina are correct, but that not a analyses of the FUNCTION the Sutta has for wordlings. Because I'm afraid that leaded by Nina's topics, the thread gets an other direction then when I started it, I repeat my question: The Buddha can not have meant it as a meditation-instruction for us, it skips to much in a way only arahats can get at the end-level the Buddha described in this Sutta. So it must have another function. And I think that contemplating emptiness is a good guess. (To be honest, I hope it is because then this Sutta can link Theravada with Mahayana in which sunyate plays such an important role.) So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far away to bother. Metta Joop 52599 From: "smallchap" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > S: If my teacher were to say to me now: "smallchap, I will teach you > > jhana." I would gladly learn it. > ------ > N: I feel that here might be a problem. How do we know that the teacher > teaches the real jhana? There can be different supranormal or mystical > experiences as a result of concentration, but these may not be the real > jhana and they may result from concentration with attachment. ------- S: Don't worry Nina. There won't be any problem. That was only hypothetical. ----------- > I also think of Christian mystics, like Theresa of Avila and others. They > had visions and this is quite possible. > I feel concern, because a jhana teacher was on several lists and then I > heard that he had suicidal inclinations. So I think that one has to be very > careful with jhana practice. Lobha is bound to play us tricks all the time. > Extraordinary experiences can lead to mental disturbance. > Perhaps there is a way to check one's cittas. ------ S: There is no cause for concern here. Excessive pleasant feeling can easily turn unpleasant. This is my experience. ------- N: Does one truly want to lead a life free from sense > pleaures, such as music, nice food, the confort of one's home, the company > of friends? > ***** --------- S: These words seem to be Mara's favourite lines. Nina, I know your concerns are genuine and sincere and I appreciate them but please be careful, we are in cyber space. Many people are reading our posts. ------- N: In the last instance one has to verify the truth for oneself. ------- S: Absolutely, but there is a real problem here. Everyone believes only his own view to be correct, and will skew all his experience/verification toward his view. smallchap