53400 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing Dear Larry (and James), Thanks for interesting questions. As you and James said sometimes it is hard to find in the texts. This might also be because we just miss. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, When someone does something you don't like, you feel unpleasant feeling.Do you feel this feeling in the body, or in the mind, or both, or neither? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The answer has to be based on my 'self'. I am a puthujana. I have the same degree of defilements like others even though they are now quiet. So I do have like and dislike. I may or may not manifest my unlikeness to others. Example; When I heard someone saying what I do not like I know it perceive it and there is dosa. But very soon that dosa passes away and instead reflections on the matter make me smile and I am externally smile and not manifest dosa. Here you questions are 'When I feel unpleasant feeling when someone does something I don't like 1) do I feel it in the body? 2) in the mind 3) both? 4) neither? If the feeling is primarily in the mind then it will effect the mind first and then spread to the body. In this case feeling is felt in both. If someone does something I don't like is hitting my face then it will be first felt in the body and then spread to the mind and body at the same time. In this case it may be called felt in both. If there is no physical affliction and IF I HAD BEEN AN ONCE-RETURNER there will be painful feeling in neither the body or the mind. Because there is no physical insult there is no physical pain. As once-returners do not have any dosa there will not be any painful mental feeling in them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Here's another exercise: take a piece of food that you find particularly delicious. When you hold it in your hand you are holding the flavor rupa and you know it, somewhat, through the mind door. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Unless I have tasted it there has not been tongue-consciousness. You said I hold 'the food'. I hold the flavour ruupa. But what I know at that time is just my own thoughts on previous experiences in eating and tasting and enjoying similar food. All these must have been associated with lobha. I have not taste it but as I know this kind of food have been enjoyed before and I start to feel good. This feeling good is piiti. It is called somanassa. 'So' means good. 'Mana' means mind. Somanassa means 'goodness in mind'. It is piiti or joy. It is associated with greedy mind or lobha cittas. So far I have not tasted it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: When the flavor rupa contacts tongue sensitivity tongue consciousness arises. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Definitely neutral feeling even though hold or cold, spiciness or pain, tenderness, hardness, movement, and many other tactile sensation may also be carried by tongue in which case there might be sukha (pleasant physical feeling) or dukkha (unpleasant physical feeling). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: This is taste sensation and it may or may not be an accurate reflection of the flavor rupa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are talking on 'taste' as a ruupa. There are 6 pairs of ruupa. 1. sight and eye 2. sound and ear 3. smell and nose 4. taste and tongue 5. touch and body 6. thought and mind Your word flavour ruupa must be 'rasa' or 'taste'. The word flavour is just a concept and also 'taste' 'rasa' as words are also concept. But they bear the meaning of paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities. You seem to be saying 'full understanding on flavour'. This is only happen after many cittas happen. So single series of cittas in procession is not enough to fully understand the flavour you said. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Along with taste sensation comes neutral feeling in all cases, because only neutral feeling arises with tongue consciousness. However, because you find this food delicious a liking consciousness arises. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is hard to detect as you said. But with practice it may be possible to detect earlier than we could. There is a delay between tongue-consciousness and likeness. Primary delay is hard to handle. Sencondary delay can be modified with practice. Primary delay When a taste (rasa) comes in touch with a tongue (jivhaa) the mind cannot attend at the same instant as it has been busy with other objects or it has been in a state of life-continuum. After 3 moments 'the mind who is considering what has been going on here at 5 sense doors' called 5-door-adverting consciousness or panca-dvara-avajjana citta advert (turn the attention to) rasa or taste. Because of this mind next arising mind becomes tongue- consciousness. There is no immediate following of likeness. Instead the mind thaty receive the object arises and it passes away. Next mind arises and investigates what this object taste is like. Next mind determine who to respond such as with likeness or with dislikeness or with neutral manner. This mind is known as 'mind-door-adverting consciousness or mano-dvara-avajjana-citta. Only after that there arise 7 successive consciousness. These 7 may be associated with likeness or dislikeness or neutral. If the object permits for enough time to experience it there follow 2 more consciousness namely 'retention consciousness'. These 2 cittas just retain the object. As soon as the 2nd retaining consciousness passes away the object taste (rasa) and tongue (jivhaa or tongue- sensitivity) also pass away. As there is no more object the mind reverts to original object of life-continuing consciousness. So in this primary delay there are T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.| B.B.B.A.P.S.N.V.J.J.J.J.J.J.J.D.D.| T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.| The upper row T stands for taste. The lower row T stands for tongue. In the middle row B = Bhavanga citta = life-continuum A = Aavajjana citta= 5-door-adverting consciousness P = Pancavinnaana citta = tongue-consciousness S = Sampaticchana citta = receiving consciousness N = santiraNa citta = investigating consciousness V = Votthapana citta= determining consciousness J = Javana citta = likeness/dislikeness/neutral D = taDaarammana citta = retention consciousness In this primary delay there are 3 moments of S.N.V that is P.S.N.V.J P is pancavinnaana citta standing for tongue consciousness and J is javana citta standing for likeness/dislikeness/neutral consciousness. At the end of this series there follow countless life-continuum and this is secondary delay. After that further series arise. If these series are not likeness then there have to be further delay. The prior knowledge of the food does condition arising of likeness- consciousness. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Along with like, pleasant feeling arises. Both of these feelings are subtle and hard to "catch", --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Likeness will be mostly somanassa or pleasant mental feeling. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: but neutral feeling is more subtle than pleasant feeling. So let's just consider what we have here: 1) flavor rupa, 2) taste sensation, 3) neutral feeling, 4) liking consciousness,and 5) pleasant feeling. If you can distinguish between all 5 elements, where do the 2 instances of feeling arise: in the body, in the mind, both, or neither? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I like the food and I have expereinced the similar food before and as I have prior knowledge of that food there will arise likeness as you said. This likeness will be associated with piiti or joy, which is a mental factor. Yet another mental factor vedana or feeling also arises together with them. (Sampayutta paccaya _ all 4 naama-kkhandhaa or 4 nama aggregates have to arise and mixed together so that they cannot be separated out) So likeness arise with lobha citta and it is 'IN THE MIND'. Because of this likeness there arise ruupa-born of consciousness like kaaya- vinatti (my smiling behaviour on likeness on food). As other consequences also follow then there seems likeness is arising at body. If this happen then one may think it is in both. Whereas, arahats will not have any likeness. So neither. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: It is no good reading the books. We have to look closely at our experience. If we compare the consciousnesses here, a)tasting sensation is gross, b)liking consciousness is subtle, c)pleasant feeling is more subtle, and d)neutral feeling is very subtle. I guess we could say the mind door consciousness of flavour rupa is also gross. Larry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I have to design the letters representing consciousness with colour then I would paint the letters like this B Bhavanga citta with grey A Aavajjana (pancadvara-avajjana citta ) with white P Pancavinnaana citta (sense-consciousness) with grey S Sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness) with grey N santiraNa citta (investigating consciousness) with grey V Votthapana citta (determining consciousness ) with white J Javana citta (mental impulsive consciousness) with different colour depending on lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha. D taDaarammana citta (retention consciousness) with grey Please see above. Only javana cittas will have special colour. Grey represent already cooked result. So there will not be any more kamma from those citta with grey. White represents kiriyaa or functional consciousness. They will not produce any kamma. So I will count only on javana cittas whether they are apparent or not. 1. dosa = red colour 2. lobha= orange colour 3. moha = black colour 4. kiriya cittas = white colour (including 5-door-adverter and mind-door-adverter) 5. vipaaka cittas = grey colour 6. kaama kusala cittas = green colour 7. jhaana kusala cittas= blue colour 8. lokuttara kusala cittas= glistening golden bright yellow colour magga cittas 9. lokuttara phala cittas = glistening golden grey yellow colour phala cittas So a) will be grey. And b) will be orange. a) is very subtle while b) is a bit more apparent than a). c) and d) are mental factors. They have to be given different designs. Make a big circle for the citta and colour it accordingly. Then attach very small circles as cetasikas along the circumference of the large circle. 1. moha, ahirika, anotappa, uddhacca --> black 2. lobha, maana, ditthi --> orange 3. dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca --> red 4. 19 sobhana cetasika --> green 5. karuna, mudita --> blue 6. sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, sammaa-aajiiva --> golden yellow 7. pannaa --> glistening bright golden yellow 8. 7 sabba-citta-saadharana cetasikas --> white 9. vitakka, vicaara, viiriya, piiti, chanda, adhimokkha --> grey Feeling-wise neutral feeling is more subtle. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53401 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi Larry (and James) - Thanks to James who directed my attention to your post. I read it through slowly, appreciating the content like drinking a fine hot tea in a cold Winter. There I saw a different Larry -- of course it is not a self -- that is much more interesting. I think I will read more of your posts from now. No other comment now, only an appreciation. BTW : is "appreciation" a feeling or "formations"? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > When someone does something you don't like, you feel unpleasant feeling. > Do you feel this feeling in the body, or in the mind, or both, or > neither? > > Here's another exercise: take a piece of food that you find particularly > delicious. When you hold it in your hand you are holding the flavor rupa > and you know it, somewhat, through the mind door. When the flavor rupa > contacts tongue sensitivity tongue consciousness arises. This is taste > sensation and it may or may not be an accurate reflection of the flavor > rupa. Along with taste sensation comes neutral feeling in all cases, > because only neutral feeling arises with tongue consciousness. However, > because you find this food delicious a liking consciousness arises. > Along with like, pleasant feeling arises. Both of these feelings are > subtle and hard to "catch", but neutral feeling is more subtle than > pleasant feeling. So let's just consider what we have here: 1) flavor > rupa, 2) taste sensation, 3) neutral feeling, 4) liking consciousness, > and 5) pleasant feeling. If you can distinguish between all 5 elements, (snipped) 53402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Small lesson 2, welcome here nilovg Dear Harry, It is a pleasure to see you here after welcoming you to the Pali list. Welcome here. I hope you will join in the discussions. Nina. op 10-12-2005 21:34 schreef Harry Liew op harryliew66@...: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Thanks for bringing up questions that have been bothering me but afraid or > embarassing to ask. 53403 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo philofillet Hi James and all > openly hostile posts like the recent ones from Connie > and Phil suggesting dojo terrorist tactics I don't think it's fair to include Connie because she was being tongue-in-cheek about it, as far as I know. Phil 53404 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 331- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[a] philofillet Hi Nina and all > and both have unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from > discontent and laziness (or indulgence), as proximate cause." Is "unsystematic thought" a synonym for ayoniso manasiakara? Because I think I remember that another translation of this had unwise attention as proximate cause. If so, does that mean "yoniso manasikara" is "systematic?" What does this "systematic" refer to? Thanks in advance. Phil 53405 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] msg fm metta nilovg Hello Wayne, With Sarah waiting for your wheels. I agree with her: painkillers are not included in intoxicants. Monks can even use small amounts of alcohol in medicines, provided it is well cooked and no flavour left. I am glad you can at least use a walker. As to typing, I do not know whether you are acquainted with special software , using voice. A good friend of our forum is specialized in such equipment: The first time you would mail him he has an antispam, but the address is correct. He helps with our audio. op 11-12-2005 17:53 schreef wayne op wkochman@...: > Thank-you for your kindness, reply, and > acceptance for membership to this group. 53406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding nilovg Hi Tep, op 10-12-2005 23:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I am a little bewildered by what you wrote: > >> N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to be > aware naturally. > > Tep: But don't you think that right understanding is supported by right > mindfulness and right effort? ------ N: In this context a beginning paññaa is meant, not right understanding of the eightfold Path, not yet. There msut be a beginning, how could it otherwise develop to become a factor of the eightfold Path? Before hearing the teachings we took people and things to be lasting, something we could possess. It seemed that a precious stone was there and lasting, very solid. Then we learnt that through the Dhamma: When perceived through the eye-door, it is a visible object - When perceived through the nose-door, it is an odour - When perceived through the tongue-door, it is a flavour - When perceived through the body-door, it is a combination of hardness, temperature and pressure (Rob M said this about a glass of water to Chin Kah) One begins to learn that by the coming together of the senses and relevant objects there is the experience of these objects. It is a citta that experiences, but before we thought of a self who experiences. Before we had no knowledge of citta that experiences an object and then falls away immediately. We did not know that there are kusala cittas, akusala cittas and cittas that are neither kusala nor akusala. We did not know that pleasant feeling , be it subtle or coarse, only arises for a moment and then falls away. When we remembered or recognized something we did not know that this is saññaa, a cetasika accompanying each citta. Correct understanding begins when we learn more about citta, cetasika and rupa. It is right understanding, different from wrong interpretation of reality. ----- In May, Sukin sent you a post about right understanding of the level of pariyatti, and I do not know whether meanwhile his post became more meaningful to you. I quote: end quote. -------- N: As Joop said to you, we can see the development of understanding as a spiritual process of gradual awakening. Thus, when we read the terms right understanding, we can think of a gradual growth. Right view or right understanding of the eightfold Path cannot suddenly arise without the right conditions. And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises and falls away together with all the other factors. Nina. 53407 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:29am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 2 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 8, right understanding buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - It is very nice of you to respond to my questions in a timely fashion. But I think it is also fine with me if you ignore them, like Sukin suggested to me {:->|), or postpone your reply to after the New Year. Whatever the choice you make I will always be thankful. >>>N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to >>> be aware naturally. > > >Tep: But don't you think that right understanding is supported by right mindfulness and right effort? ------ >N: In this context a beginning paññaa is meant, not right understanding of the eightfold Path, not yet. There must be a beginning, how could it otherwise develop to become a factor of the eightfold Path? Tep: If you mean a "beginning panna" then please don't write "right understanding". The followings are some examples of your confused descriptions of right understanding or 'panna' in the previous posts. I am not sure which of your definitions should be taken for "understanding" and which for "right understanding" anymore, because you have several. > >N ( #53283): The three sekhas: higher virtue: adhisiila, adhicitta, adhi pa๑๑aa: these three are not without understanding of realities. They have to be accompanied by pa๑๑aa. > >N (#53216): The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors. > > N (#52802): I am not so much thinking of relaxation of thoughts, rather of abandoning by understanding. ........................ >N: (explaining further..) Before hearing the teachings we took people and things to be lasting, something we could possess. It seemed that a precious stone was there and lasting, very solid. Then we learnt that through the Dhamma: When perceived through the eye-door, it is a visible object - When perceived through the nose-door, it is an odour - When perceived through the tongue-door, it is a flavour - When perceived through the body-door, it is a combination of hardness, temperature and pressure (Rob M said this about a glass of water to Chin Kah) One begins to learn that by the coming together of the senses and relevant objects there is the experience of these objects. It is a citta that experiences, but before we thought of a self who experiences. Before we had no knowledge of citta that experiences an object and then falls away immediately. We did not know that there are kusala cittas, akusala cittas and cittas that are neither kusala nor akusala. We did not know that pleasant feeling , be it subtle or coarse, only arises for a moment and then falls away. When we remembered or recognized something we did not know that this is saññaa, a cetasika accompanying each citta. Correct understanding begins when we learn more about citta, cetasika and rupa. It is right understanding, different from wrong interpretation of reality. > Tep: Thank you for reviewing the Paramattha's ABC of consciousness(citta). From what you just said : "Correct understanding begins when we learn more about citta, cetasika and rupa. It is right understanding, different from wrong interpretation of reality.", is this "right understanding" the same as the Sotapanna's samma-ditthi? ["He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." See MN 2.] Tep: I do not understand Sukin's description of the process of understanding. I prefer the above right view according to MN 2. ....................... >N: As Joop said to you, we can see the development of understanding as a spiritual process of gradual awakening. Thus, when we read the terms right understanding, we can think of a gradual growth. Right view or right understanding of the eightfold Path cannot suddenly arise without the right conditions. Tep: Changing from the ariyan's "right understanding" to adopt the simple worldlings' gradual awakening is a big change from the previous notions that you used to have. >N: And also: it is momentary, we do not possess it. It arises and falls away together with all the other factors. Tep: I completely agree with the momentary characteristic and anatta view for sankhara dhamma. But I am afraid I do not understand why right understanding in an ariyan should fall away. If it did, wouldn't that ariyan then become non-ariyan again? Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 10-12-2005 23:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I am a little bewildered by what you wrote: > > > >> N: Right understanding is the condition for sati to arise and to be > > aware naturally. > > > > Tep: But don't you think that right understanding is supported by right > > mindfulness and right effort? (snipped) 53409 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 matheesha333 Hi Phil, Nina, > > Ph: I still think she should have answered that question from > azita > > > about motion. grrr.... :) M: Let me have a stab at it! : motion is a fallacy in ultimate terms. There is arising and passing away of dhammas. Lets take the vision (of an object moving towards you.) The first image which is created by phassa/contact is an object '4 feet away' ('4 feet' being pannati as well), the next image is it growing larger (ie -'3 feet' away). There is no fluid 'motion'; there is only a break up of images one after the other. Much like in old film frames, where pictures are projected at speed to give the illusion of movement. So what happens in between two images? (between 4 feet and 3 feet). We can never know this. The Buddha has said that since something arises it can be said to exist. Since it passess away it cannot be said to exist. When there is no focused 'experiencing', it looks like it is all happening at the same time....all in one flow. But this is just an illusion - avijja. Therefore motion is just a product of our imagination. Much like the production of the self. We stay fooled about the self because we cant see the components (5 aggregates) acting seperately by a mind which is not trained to do it. metta Matheesha 53410 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Where's vedana?? (Re: An Interview With Htoo) buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and All), Thanks for the response to Larry's questions. Larry hasn't responded yet, and his response will probably be more intelligible than mine, but I have time now so I will try to sort out your post and respond. First, for the benefit of other readers, I think it is important to define feeling (vedana) since it is often ill-defined. For example, SN Goenka defines vedana as bodily sensations because, as he believes, vedana in the mind results in sensations in the body. However, I don't think that this assertion is specifically supported by the texts (and this side-issue gets to the heart of Larry's question). So, to define vedana: "When there have been various sorts of contact through the six senses, feelings arise which are the emotional response to those contacts. Feelings are of three sorts: pleasant, painful and neither pleasant nor painful. The first are welcome and are the basis for happiness, the second are unwelcome and are the basis for dukkha while the third are the neutral sort of feelings which we experience so often but hardly notice. But all feelings are unstable and liable to change, for no mental state can continue in equilibrium. Even moments of the highest happiness whatever we consider this is, pass away and give place to different ones. So even happiness which is impermanent based on pleasant feelings is really dukkha, for how can the true unchanging happiness be found in the unstable?" http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/depend.htm#Feeling So, contact conditions feelings (emotions) which conditions craving, etc. But, where are these emotions experienced? In the mind or in the body, or both? Htoo, here are your answers: "If the feeling is primarily in the mind then it will effect the mind first and then spread to the body. In this case feeling is felt in both. If someone does something I don't like is hitting my face then it will be first felt in the body and then spread to the mind and body at the same time. In this case it may be called felt in both." AND "So likeness arise with lobha citta and it is 'IN THE MIND'. Because of this likeness there arise ruupa-born of consciousness like kaaya- vinatti (my smiling behaviour on likeness on food). As other consequences also follow then there seems likeness is arising at body. If this happen then one may think it is in both." James: Htoo, I see a slight contradiction in your answers here, which reveals to me that possibly you really don't know the answer. First you say that feelings arise in both mind and body and later you say that feelings arise only in the mind and then "seem" to arise in the body. Am I misreading you? Which is your answer? And there is no pressure here; like Larry, I am just curious as to what your answer is. As for myself, I can't figure it out. For me, feelings (emotions) seem to be felt in both my mind and body. One could say that the feeling is really only felt in the mind and that the subsequent feeling in the body is a psychological response. That could be; I'm not sure. But, I'm surprised that with everything the Abhidhamma has analyzed to death it hasn't addressed the very simple and important question: Where is vendana felt? And, why is this question important in this first place? Why did it catch my attention? Because I believe that to understand this issue well one can practice mindfulness more efficiently. Metta, James 53411 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Still Hostile InTent nichiconn dear phil-o-busters I'll try to watch my language, but you don't have to give me any consideration. I just come in & whether you rise to greet in kind or otherwise the marks on the screen, there is just that much reflection for consideration. Anumodana with this Plan To GET THEM by infiltrating the Survival Practice Document, but SARAH! - forget Dojo? I'm sure I will, but conditions have supported remembering this black kitten who followed me all over. I called him dee-oh-gee; like its spelt, i'd say, but someone just couldn't get that right and stuck him with "dojo". Having dug him up, I thought I'd just feather ruffles over the dead cat and send the white ratbagger packing, but it's true, I'm self-possessed that way. Thinking there must be something profoundly buddhistic here, I forwarded the question to the bored of testers. << What do you mean by "dojo"? >> I see Phil has posted an official response but the prelimary draft also refered to a DojoRule advisory on cushioning offenders: <> ruggedness? Where can any of us ever sit but in our own jungle forest at the root/seat of our own burden/bearing/trunk. eWhere we get up and walk around, knee jerk characters putting up our dukes and dancing, both in the way of fools. "Buddhism Is Victory" and how we pull our punches is sometimes more disarming than the punches we pack in forewarned of disregarding danger in even the slightest fault. Let me keep my arms but (by your leave since I can't take them back) apologize for-giving you my outbursts. They are just black and white marks we can make say almost anything and for those who really care, cushions are being smuggled in but once past the filters we're all left with hot seats of samvega. Rotten bit of post - adolescent senility, but mark twain! Connie, jumping to another topic: "If the monastic tradition does not fit or work in a given society, where does the fault lie?" Joop: First I thought I will say: "that's not a good question; nobody is to blame when conditions are changing." But after some reflecting I prefer to be honest and will say: The bearers of the traditions (laypeople but especially monks) who refuse to see that the conditions are changing (in Asia) and will not exist (in the West) for continuation of the tradition in which monks and laypeople are living in a kind of mutual symbiotic relation. Connie: The fault lies in the bedrock of understanding, where we stand our ground, and when conditions are right, it will open. The fault lies in the -uh- formal structural characteristic of attas conceived and not lasting. No. Blame the fools who think they know better than the Buddha and would change his words to suit themselves. That is Emperor's New Clothes Buddhism. Quite fashionable (in the West), I hear. Here's another short story: Two legged tripods fall. Another: Corrupt practice corrupts. Circular thinking, I guess, but life seems to run that way. Over and over the same conditioned realities appear to be known, but we are lost in animal talk: who will lead the future non-ariyan sangha? Fools. (n.) duppa~n~na; dummedha; mandamati. Joop: So the question is not " Does anyone care to sell Vinaya cheap?" as you said, but: What do we want in the future: no Theravada at all or a laymovement, with new forms of renunciated life? Connie: The question stands. Keeping the Ariyan Tradition is the job of the Ariyan Sangha, ordained or lay, but what possible new forms of renunciated life could there ever be? What have business men throwing on robes when it suits them and still going home to their wives and children renounced? Don't bother with that. They have renounced Vinaya in their robes of tattered and torn siila. They are defeated. I hope something else grabs your attention and pulls you back to attend the present realities within your own proper range. The bones in the x-ray are very white. "Seeing a single fallen leaf, the mind is the Earth." - unknown. Let's ask Charles this one, Joop: <> Nagarjuna or a Sujinarian? [Clue: its from his "Path of Easy Practice" and you won't find it on zolag]. Really, I've only read one translation of A's 'Awakening' and thought it was fun enough at the time, but ... surreal, i guess, to be polite. Let them lie. If you think it worthwhile, DO paint your picture and see how it fits in the frame. Maybe you'll paint the Mahayana Last Supper, putting the heretical horse's voice Ashvagosha and snake charming Nagarjuna in their proper places. peace? connie 53412 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 0:58pm Subject: Where's vedana?? (Re: An Interview With Htoo) buddhatrue Hi Htoo, Oops, a correction: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: One > could say that the feeling is really only felt in the mind and that > the subsequent feeling in the body is a psychological response. I mean to say physiological response, not psychological response. Metta, James 53413 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:12pm Subject: Re: Still Hostile InTent icarofranca Hi Connie! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > What do we want in the future: no Theravada at all or a >laymovement, > with new forms of renunciated life? > > Connie: The question stands. Keeping the Ariyan Tradition is the >job of > the Ariyan Sangha, ordained or lay, but what possible new forms >of > renunciated life could there ever be? What have business men >throwing on > robes when it suits them and still going home to their wives and >children > renounced? Don't bother with that. They have renounced Vinaya in >their > robes of tattered and torn siila. They are defeated. >------------------------------------------------------------------ Indeed. Keeping arguments on the tracks, only true buddhistic Monks or Bhikkhus deserve to be called real buddhists. The rest are, at this viewpoint, depending of the circunstances, mood, good omens, fate or other social fantasies,laymen or laywomen for what a basic Buddha Cult is at the same level of more sophisticated philosophical quests. "Ah! but there is the merits issues..." MERIT is a discritionary concept, depending on keeping your lives on the right tracks of doctrine. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > If you think it worthwhile, DO paint your picture and see how it fits in > the frame. Maybe you'll paint the Mahayana Last Supper, putting the > heretical horse's voice Ashvagosha and snake charming Nagarjuna in their > proper places. >------------------------------------------------------------------- Wonderful, Connie!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > peace? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- What ???? With Metta, Ícaro 53414 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Peace and lay-movement (Was: Re: Still Hostile InTent jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > dear phil-o-busters > ... The Householder Ugga (AN VIII 21) "… When Ugga was seated , the monk said to him: "The Blessed One has declared that eight wonderful and marvellous qualities can be found in you, householder. What are those eight qualities? … It, venerable sir, that venerable monk preaches the Dhammato me, I listen respectfully and not with disrespect. But if he does not preach, then I preach the Dhamma to him. That is the sixth wunderful and marvellous quality found in me. … There are, venerable sir, five lower fetters declared by the Blessed One, yet I am not aware of even a single one among these which I have still not abondoned *). This is the eight wonderful and marvellous quality found in me. …" *)Footnote of Bhikkhu Bodhi: This is an indirect way of indicating that he is an non-returner Metta Joop 53415 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Larry (and James) - BTW : is "appreciation" a feeling or "formations"? Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep (Larry, James and all), This question is interesting. Larry, what do you think? With respect, Htoo Naing 53416 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:54pm Subject: Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 philofillet Hi Matheesha Thanks for the feedback. > > > > Ph: I still think she should have answered that question from > > azita > > > > about motion. grrr.... :) > > M: Let me have a stab at it! : But what I was referring to above was more an aspect of the pariyatti process, whether a person with superior book knowledge/intellectual knowledge can just share what he or she knows about Abhidhamma points, for example, without necessarily feeding distracting lobha in the other. So rather than wanting to figure out motion, I was meaning that I think A. Sujin could have shared a single sentence of Abhidhamma definition from her book knowledge of Abhidhamma, suttas and commentaries, and that single sentence of theory could be one condition for planting the seed of later deeper knowledge. There is an idea that book knowledge always feeds distracting hunger for more book knowledge that takes us away from the moment, and that this is especially true for some people moer than others, due to conditions. I can see how it could, but I think rather than doing our own speculating it is best to start by learning what the tipitaka and commentaries say, hearing it, registering it if registering happens, letting it pass by if that what's happens. But we have to hear it first, I think. So I disagree with the idea that in that situation, if Azita (or anyone) had been told that "the characteristic of motion is x y z" (all dhammas have explicitly defined characteristics, functions, manifestations etc as we know) it would have made her less rather than more conditioned to understand the characteristic directly. No biggie. Just thinking about the way pariyatti works. I just received a copy of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and there is so much book knowledge in there. Phil p.s thanks to the Foundation for the book, and Sukin and his assistant for doing the mailing. 53417 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Where's vedana?? (Re: An Interview With Htoo) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Htoo (and All), Dear James, Thanks for Buddhanet.net website link on 12 links of Dependent Origination. I did not find anything bad or wrong in your message. And I am also straight forward. The problem is understanding and usage of language. You seem to assume that I am ambiguous. No. I will answer again. My respond to Larry was a complete answer. Language-wise feeling is said to arise at body. But 'by definition' feeling is a naama dhamma or mental phenomena. Even though it is associated with material phenomena it is not felt at any of material. It does not arise at any of material. Feeling is a mental phenomena. Please see again below. Htoo Naing ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James wrote: Htoo, here are your answers: "If the feeling is primarily in the mind then it will effect the mind first and then spread to the body. In this case feeling is felt in both. If someone does something I don't like is hitting my face then it will be first felt in the body and then spread to the mind and body at the same time. In this case it may be called felt in both." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is my answer so that it include every day language. Primarily in the mind means 'there is no physical infliction'. So there is no pain in the body. Spread to the body mean 'the manifestations' spread into the physical body that we can see. Feeling is felt in both here means 'there are manifestation of feeling as usual term in both body and mind'. But in real dhamma term, feeling or vedana is a mental factor and it itself is not a consciousness but it helps consciousness to feel. So feeling cannot be found at any of material phenomena as it is a mental phenomena. So feeling cannot be felt anywhere except in the mind. Feeling is one of the object of mind. Feeling is not the object of 5 sense door. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James continued to quote Htoo's post: AND "So likeness arise with lobha citta and it is 'IN THE MIND'. Because of this likeness there arise ruupa-born of consciousness like kaaya- vinatti (my smiling behaviour on likeness on food). As other consequences also follow then there seems likeness is arising at body. If this happen then one may think it is in both." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is talking on manifestation. Likeness or lobha is a mental factor. It is a mental phenomena. It is not there in material phenomena. That is why I used 'one may think it is in both'. But in real term, likeness arises only in the mind and no one can see or hear or sense likeness except through their mind to their own likeness only. Not of other's person likeness. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Htoo, I see a slight contradiction in your answers here, which reveals to me that possibly you really don't know the answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is because of the language for ordinary people and the language for learned people. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: First you say that feelings arise in both mind and body and later you say that feelings arise only in the mind and then "seem" to arise in the body. Am I misreading you? Which is your answer? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 89 states of mind. There are 89 sensations. (This is in the initial post 'A Interview With Htoo.) There are 89 cittas. There are 89 vinnaana. There are 89 mental state. Each one of these 89 has at least 7 associated mental factors. Feeling is one of them. So as long as one has a life there is a constant flow of consciousness and along with that flow there is a constant flow of feeling. But feelings are changing depending on what state of mind arises. Feeling is a mental phenomena. It never arises at any material phenomena. But worldly people may say there feeling arise here and there in the body, in the mind, in the limbs, in the feet etc. This is not accurate. The reason that you confused is that I used everyday language along with Dhamma language. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: And there is no pressure here; --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. :-)) ----------------------------- James: like Larry, I am just curious as to what your answer is. As for myself, I can't figure it out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You might think that I am regurgitating those words from the texts. But for me I almost clearly see feeling unlike before. It is the direction that speaks. If you follow 'material phenomena' it may sound like kayanupassana. If you follow feeling separately it may sound like vedananupassana. If you follow your mind it may sound like cittanupassana. If you follow dhamma that are not self it may sound like dhammanupassana. Sometimes, we do feel physical pain which is inevitable. If you sit for an hour without moving there do arise unpleasant feeling. This feeling in dhamma-term does not arise in the body. What arise in the body is 'touch' or 'photthabba' and it is felt and known through body- consciousness and this consciousness is associated with painful feeling or ease-feeling depending on the object. Both have feelings. But these feelings do not arise at body but in the mind. You may have physical discomfort while you sit for a long time. There because of dislike there also arise mental reaction which is dosa. This also arise in the mind and not at any of material phenomena. Sometimes there is no apparent feeling but there still is feelings. I do not know whether you can sense it or not. But for me I can see them now almost clearly. All these three are just in this world. Sometimes, we are out of world. That is we do not think on the worldly things. Examples; we may become a bit annoy because our mind does not stand still. Instead of stabilized and fixed it wander about and we feel uneasy about that. This is un-worldly unpleasant feeling. Sometimes, I don't know you, but for me, I run into a state of complete calmness. I normally do not maintain them long but I check them whether they (mental phenomena) are agreeable or not. Sometimes because of that calmness when I check and finf that I am well calm there arise a pleasant feeling. Neutral feeling is hardly felt as un- worldly things. But once I did feel it very clearly. I will definitely say that feeling is a mental phenomena and it does not arise at any of material phenomena. It is just in the mind. It is a mental associate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: For me, feelings (emotions) seem to be felt in both my mind and body. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think the problem is wording. Emotion may not be right word to be used for feeling. Because there is a term called emotionally blunt. There is no blunting of feeling at all. Feeling is there all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: One could say that the feeling is really only felt in the mind and that the subsequent feeling in the body is a psychological response. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be definite, there is no feeling in the body in Buddhists psycho- physical phenomena. Examples; Pain in the burnt hands, arms, legs, feets are not feeling. What is felt is associated with mind and not associated with body. But they arise at the very same time and this process and conditionality is a bit complex. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: That could be; I'm not sure. But, I'm surprised that with everything the Abhidhamma has analyzed to death it hasn't addressed the very simple and important question: Where is vendana felt? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Q1. WHAT is vedana? A1. Vedana is feeling. It is what consciousness feels. It is what the mind feels. It is what the awareness feels. It is what the citta feels. It is what vinnaana feels. Q2. WHO is vedana? A2. No one. There is no self as a vedana. Vedana is a dhamma. Feeling is a dhamma. It is anatta. Q3. WHOSE is vedana? A3. No one. There is no self. So there is no possessor. Q4. WHOM does vedana hit? A4. No one. Vedana or feeling arises on its own accord according to conditions that favour. Q5. WHICH is vedana? A5. Vedana or feeling is a mental factor that arises along with consciousness and it helps consciousness to feel the object that consciousness encounters. Here let us assume there is a sight of foul smelling corpse. The sight itself does not have any feeling. But when this sight is seen, the seeing or sensation of seeing or seeing-consciousness or eye- consciousness or cakkhu-vinnaana is the seer. It feels. So it is the citta who feels. In this case vedana or feeling helps as a mental associate. Q6. WHEN does vedana arise? A6. It arises at every moment. At any moment. At all moment. There is no stopage. The only exception is in Arahats when they are in nirodha- samapatti or cessation-attainment, in which there is no feeling at all. Q7. WHERE does vedana arise? A7.Vedana or feeling is a naama dhamma. It is a mental phenomena. So it arises at the mind or at the citta or at the vinnaana. Cetasika already means that they are those that arise at citta. Kaayika means 'at the body' 'in the body' Cetasika means 'at the mind' 'in the mind'. Vedana is a cetasika. So VEDANA or FEELING arises at the mind or in the mind. It arises nowhere else. This is a solid answer. Q8. How long does it last? A8. It lasts just a moment of a citta. It vanishes with citta. Q9. Is there anything to do with material phenomena? Q9. Yes. It co-arises with material phenomena when in panca-vokaara bhuumi or when in the realms where there are all 5 khandhaas. When in aruupa bhuumi or when there are only 4 naama-kkhandhaas there is nothing to do with material phenomena at all. 'Vedana and material' Vedana has to dwell on hadaya ruupa if the moments are not at 5 senses. If the moments are at 5 senses, vedanaa or feeling is there co-arises with 5 material phenomena. But they are not a mixed phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------------------- James: And, why is this question important in this first place? Why did it catch my attention? Because I believe that to understand this issue well one can practice mindfulness more efficiently. Metta, James --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sure. That is why I explain extensively here. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53418 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Where's vedana?? (Re: An Interview With Htoo) htootintnaing James wrote: Hi Htoo, Oops, a correction: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: One > could say that the feeling is really only felt in the mind and that > the subsequent feeling in the body is a psychological response. I mean to say physiological response, not psychological response. Metta, James ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, That is fine. As soon as we think of logies then we are thinking concepts. Physiology is a reality. Psychology is a reality. Neurology is a reality. But they are not ultimate realities. They do not liberate from psychophysical binding to the cycle of birth-death-birth-death. It is true that physiological responses are due to immediate hormones. But these hormones and their action might have a delay. But mind travel fast. Mind travels from a side of the universe to another side. I will repeat here again that VEDANA (FEEKLING) is a mental phenomena and it does not arise at any of material phenomena. But it does co-arise with material phenomena when in the realms of 5 khandhas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53419 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: appreciation lbidd2 Tep: "BTW : is "appreciation" a feeling or "formations"?" Hi Tep and Htoo, I think it could be either lobha (like) or mudita (gladness at others' success). In either case a pleasant or neutral feeling would accompany. Can you distinguish the feeling from the gladness or liking? Larry 53420 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: appreciation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry and Htoo - Now I have a feeling that it is going to be even more interesting. >> Tep: "BTW : is "appreciation" a feeling or "formations"?" > > Hi Tep and Htoo, > > I think it could be either lobha (like) or mudita (gladness at others' > success). In either case a pleasant or neutral feeling would accompany. > Can you distinguish the feeling from the gladness or liking? > > Larry > Tep: No, I cannot separate feeling from gladness, liking, joy, or happiness. But appreciation is more complex than a feeling, right? It might involve both feeling and perception. Regards, Tep ====== 53421 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Thanks for your extensive responses. I'm sure many people can benefit from them. However, what I am most interested in right now is experience. Looking closely at experience and as clearly as possible identifying what is going on. So from my point of view, the only thing that matters here is, can we clearly identify pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neutral feeling in our experience? With regard to finding feeling in the body, I agree this is a conventional way of speaking. We usually think of body consciousness (touch sensation) as "the body". So when we say we find feeling in the body, what we mean is we find feeling in, or with, body consciousness (touch sensation). I also agree that we need to distinguish between touch sensation (body consciousness) and the feeling that arises with it. They are actually very closely related and often it is difficult to distinguish between the two. Additionally, there is the phenomenon of the feeling that arises with lobha and dosa (like and dislike) arising, somehow, with body consciousness, ("in the body", so to speak). I'm not so much concerned with how or why that happens, as I am interested in _that_ it happens. I find it is very difficult to identify feeling apart from body consciousness (maybe because I'm so grounded in the kamavacara (sensuous sphere). Anyway, for whatever reason, pleasant and painful feelings of all kinds end up with body consciousness, or so it seems. And therefore this is a good way to go about identifying feeling. That's what I'm getting at. What is your view on this, and do you have any practical advice on how to clearly identify feeling, distinguishing between feeling and touch sensation (body consciousness), and distinguishing between feeling and like or dislike? Can you identify feeling apart from body consciousness? Larry 53422 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry & Htoo) - In a message dated 12/12/05 9:03:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, Larry and Htoo - > > Now I have a feeling that it is going to be even more interesting. > > >>Tep: "BTW : is "appreciation" a feeling or "formations"?" > > > >Hi Tep and Htoo, > > > >I think it could be either lobha (like) or mudita (gladness at others' > >success). In either case a pleasant or neutral feeling would > accompany. > >Can you distinguish the feeling from the gladness or liking? > > > >Larry > > > > Tep: No, I cannot separate feeling from gladness, liking, joy, or > happiness. But appreciation is more complex than a feeling, right? > > It might involve both feeling and perception. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > =========================== It would seem to me that appreciation is a cetasika (or group of cetasikas), thus belonging to sankharakkhandha, and normally accompanied by, but not identical with, pleasant feeling. As to distinguishing pleasant feeling from "gladness, liking, joy, or happiness," I find pleasant feeling to be a far simpler matter, being merely experiencing mental content as pleasant. We are indeed happy to experience pleasant phenomena, we like them, and we get joy/happiness from them, but their pleasant "flavor" is something different. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53423 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation lbidd2 Tep: "No, I cannot separate feeling from gladness, liking, joy, or happiness. But appreciation is more complex than a feeling, right? It might involve both feeling and perception." Hi Tep, Here's a few ideas, not necessarily "right": let's say appreciation is quasi conceptual, "I like this because it agrees with my views" or "I like this because I can see the 'good qualities' of it". Let's use these concepts as a pointer to direct our attention into the experience of appreciation. Then let's narrow appreciation down to one dhamma, a particular kind of "like", eliminating the "because". In order to do this we have to re-play our appreciation over and over in order to catch a glimpse of it. It's like sticking your head in muddy water and trying to see a tiny fish. Get an idea of what appreciation is and look for it as you re-play it. Then, let's take the easy route and see if we can find a pleasant feeling associated with body consciousness that arises _because_ of appreciation. Re-play the appreciation and look in your body for a pleasant feeling. Most likely it will be rather subtle, but probably easier to identify than the actual appreciation. This is hard to do, so it will take some application and it would probably be easier to start with dislike and painful feeling because they are usually more vivid (gross). However, once you get into this, identifying the elements of your experience, bad habits of all kinds start to fall apart, mostly for lack of the glue of ignorance. Larry 53424 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > I think it is > important to realize that, for most of us- be the feeling pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutral- it seems as if there is a `self' which > experiences the feeling. This is a very important matter to > consider. Thanks for bringing it up!! > > Metta, > James > ========== Dear James and all, This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at noting plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or in- between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta. Robert 53425 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:58pm Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo sukinderpal Dear Robert and James, I am behind in my reading, so I have not yet read James' original post. I saw Robert's name and therefore wanted to read his post immediately. It so happened that I was just thinking about this idea of 'noting' while driving to work. I came to the conclusion that this noting was no different from what goes on in daily life when there are conditions for such from time to time. We 'notice' for example, that something feels soft, or suddenly a smell appears, or some otherwise unnoticeable sound is heard and so on, but all still happening to 'self'. What happens in the 'noting' that many do is this same thing, only with deliberateness it happens `more often'. And this is *not* satipatthana. In the end we are just having more of the same kind of experience, one that which did not require of us to hear the Teachings, but we think instead that it is the result of Buddhist practice. :-/ Metta, Sukin. > > ========== > Dear James and all, > This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at noting > plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or in- > between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta. > Robert > 53426 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Sukin: "We 'notice' for example, that something feels soft, or suddenly a smell appears, or some otherwise unnoticeable sound is heard and so on, but all still happening to 'self'." Hi Sukin, What makes you think anything is happening to 'self'? Can you notice this belief? I mean this as a practical test, not a theoretical question. I would be interested in what you find. If you can't notice a belief, what makes you think there is one? When you notice a texture or smell is that different from a belief? Can you distinguish between the two? Larry 53427 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Robert K: "This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at noting plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or in- between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta." Hi Robert, I think that's automatic, don't you? How could a feeling be "me" once you see it? It's an object, not a subject. The main point is that no dhamma is self. But that's a long ways off. And you should know there is plenty of help along this long, long path. There wouldn't be a path without lots of help. Larry 53428 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 332- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[b] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] The Dhammasangaùi calls sloth (thína) indisposition and unwieldiness of mind (§1156) and torpor (middha) indisposition and unwieldiness of cetasikas (§1157)(1). When there are sloth and torpor there is no wieldiness of mind which is necessary for the performing of kusala. Instead there are mental stiffness and rigidity, mental sickness and laziness. *** 1) See Vibhaòga §547 and Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 377. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53429 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Andrew L, back from vacation sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, I was also very glad to see you back. Like Nina, I often think of you and wonder how you're getting on. I'm glad you've rejoined and hope you'll stay around. --- ny_dhammika wrote: > I remember many times corresponding online both from my program and at > home and it was most definitely a healthy, normal, even good and joyful > experience. ... S: For us too. I've always appreciated our discussions and look forward to more. .... > I need a life. :-) Buddhist studies are great but if you don't have a > daily life, so much of it becomes abstract and does not lend itself > towards good practise or developing insight or understanding in daily > life. .... S: Just to pick up on this point a little -- I think it takes a lot of wise reflection and consideration before one really appreciates that the practice has to be very 'natural' in daily life. So I agree with your comments. We all 'need a life' and as you say, the study shouldn't be something abstract and intellectual only, but the direct understanding of dhammas while we 'have a life'. I look forward to your further comments and examples on this topic in particular. As we've discussed before, wrong view can sneak in anytime at all leading us to believe that we must pursue a particular activity rather than understanding dhammas in our life as it is right now. Thank you also for letting us know about your present reading and study. I know you'll appreciate Samyutta transl a lot. .... > I do not know what my participation here in the near future will be, > but dhamma is dhamma and certainly certain topics are open for good > discussion, in fact, I already see a thread on Dhammapada. > > May it be good for me and others to be back and have wholesome > activities and discussion to do. ... S: Please join in any discussions of interest or start your own. Thank you so much for telling us you're back reading and giving us the update. (I hope the program is going well too and you're getting on OK with your parents these days). Metta, Sarah ========= 53430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 12-12-2005 21:15 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > motion is a fallacy in ultimate terms. > There is arising and passing away of dhammas. Lets take the vision (of > an object moving towards you.) ... > When there is no focused 'experiencing', it looks like it is all > happening at the same time....all in one flow. But this is just an > illusion - avijja. > > Therefore motion is just a product of our imagination. ------ N: This is all correct. We usually think of motion as perceived through seeing. However, the word motion also denotes the Element of Wind, and this can appear through the bodysense. It is, as you know, one of the four Great Elements that always arise together in the groups of rupa. Its characteristic is motion or pressure, or resilliance, or oscillation. Those are mere words, but characetristics can be directly known without words. It does not matter what word we use. Kh Sujin did not want to answer, as Phil said, because she knows that we are attached to words or try to catch dhammas. This is not the way. When motion ruupa appears, it can be realized as such, only a rupa, not ours. It appears by itself, because of its own condiitons, we cannot make it appear. NIna. 53431 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:47am Subject: feelings nilovg Hi Larry, I read several of your posts on feeling, and you said that you often notice feelings in the body after feeling on account of impressions through the other senses such as flavour. Citta and cetasikas, and thus also feeling, produce rupas of the body, and these rupas can be experienced by cittas arising afterwards. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another so rapidly, that all such experiences seem to occur at the same time. When there is pleasant feeling on account of a delicious flavour, it seems that another experience through the bodysense occurs at the same time. We have learnt that this is not possible, we are in a tangle. It is because of ignorance that we are alive now. If we just follow our own experiences we are misleading ourselves and become even more entangled. We need the Tipitaka and commentaries to fare safely. When different feelings are noticed, we keep on thinking about them. We can learn to understand different characteristics of dhammas, without thinking about them. It is basic to know that feeling is nama, different from rupa. It feels, it experiences the flavour of an object. If we start to wonder, where is it, is it in the body or not, there is thinking going on endlessly. Nina. 53432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 331- yoniso, and Survey quote. nilovg Hi Phil, op 12-12-2005 16:20 schreef Phil op philco777@...:> > Is "unsystematic thought" a synonym for ayoniso manasiakara? Because > I think I remember that another translation of this had unwise > attention as proximate cause. If so, does that mean "yoniso manasikara" > is "systematic?" What does this "systematic" refer to? ------ N: Yes, yoniso manasikaara. yoni: womb, origin. Yoniso: down to its origin or foundation. Properly, orderly, thoroughly. Right attention in the wholesome way. It can also arise without paññaa. I am glad you have Survey. A lot of book knowledge in it? It is all for considering deeply. If you want to quote (please do!), Rob K on his web has conveniently made small portions, numbered. One can read at random, for example starting with citta. Last night I read about citta, and it was like new to me. We can never consider it enough and after a long time it becomes more meaningful. Quote (p. 50): Nina. 53433 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, glad to see you back. How is the grandchild, he, she? Connie would say, a heap of dukkha, when she sent me a very realistic photo of a newborn. Well said about the flavour. Nina. op 13-12-2005 03:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > It would seem to me that appreciation is a cetasika (or group of > cetasikas), thus belonging to sankharakkhandha, and normally accompanied by, > but > not identical with, pleasant feeling. > As to distinguishing pleasant feeling from "gladness, liking, joy, or > happiness," I find pleasant feeling to be a far simpler matter, being merely > experiencing mental content as pleasant. We are indeed happy to experience > pleasant phenomena, we like them, and we get joy/happiness from them, but > their > pleasant "flavor" is something different. 53434 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 matheesha333 Hi Phil, P: I disagree > with the idea that in that situation, if Azita (or anyone) had been > told that "the characteristic of motion is x y z" (all dhammas have > explicitly defined characteristics, functions, manifestations etc as > we know) it would have made her less rather than more conditioned to > understand the characteristic directly. M: The way I see it, some understanding is enough, so that the main bulk of understanding is direct understanding, rather than book knowledge. No understanding will mean poor grasp of what is being experienced. Too much book knowledge can lead to remembering book knowledge rather than being open to the experience. But knowing where to draw the line is tricky and will differ on the general tradition one is following. Different degrees of learning required would probably fit in with the other elements of each tradition/path. regards Matheesha 53435 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: feelings htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Hi Larry, We can > learn to understand different characteristics of dhammas, without thinking > about them. It is basic to know that feeling is nama, different from rupa. > It feels, it experiences the flavour of an object. If we start to wonder, > where is it, is it in the body or not, there is thinking going on endlessly. > Nina. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you. A good organizer. A good steerer. A good charioteer. Yes. Tipitaka is the guide. Sometimes some seem wanting to drop the texts and seem wanting to go ahead without any text guidance. Texts are the complete Master that THE MASTER left as our guide. With respect, Htoo Naing 53436 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 332- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[b] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] > > The Dhammasangaùi calls sloth (thína) indisposition and unwieldiness of > mind (§1156) and torpor (middha) indisposition and unwieldiness of > cetasikas (§1157)(1). > > When there are sloth and torpor there is no wieldiness of mind which is > necessary for the performing of kusala. Instead there are mental stiffness > and rigidity, mental sickness and laziness. > *** > 1) See Vibhaòga §547 and Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, > 377. > ***** > Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah (and Nina), This is my question, comment, different view. My question is 1. What is the complete opposite cetasikas for thina (sloth) and middha (torpor)? My comment is 'thina' should be consistently used as 'thina' or 'thiina'. I just knew it as 'thina' and not 'thiina', I might be wrong. Different view is that why should there have to be two different stiffness. Is just one not enough to break 'wieldiness'? Can middha not stiffen citta? And can thina stiffen cetasikas? I think both can vice versa. But I did not find the text say this. With respect, Htoo Naing 53437 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:35am Subject: Reflections for Tep1 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I have so many of your posts printed out and which I’d like to respond to. I hope you won’t mind if I do so in note form in one post as I do when I write to Htoo (sorry Joop for breaking up all the threads in the process). In no particular order, but more or less following the dates: ***** 1. Your post to me #52347 referring to Andrew T’s quote from B.Dhammapala in #52194 “Tep: Yes, his quote was good. But there is one kinky point: ‘there is no mind but only thought, the act of thinking’. Only dhammarammana and no mano? In the same token, can there be eye-consciousness without eye?” .... S: I take it that by ‘thought, the act of thinking’, he is referring to citta or mano. In other words, it is citta or mano (and accompanying cetasikas such as vitakka) which thinks, not a mind as we know it. The objects of such thinking are dhammarammana. There cannot be eyeconsciousness without eye-base (or other kinds of consciousness in the eye-door process or subsequent mind door processes without heart-base). ***** 2. Thank you very much for your kind encouragement in a couple of posts and your open-minded consideration of details such as ‘bhavana’ from the Atthasalini. I also really appreciate your research a lot, such as the suttas you quoted for Mike on Dec 1st (no post# handy). I thought it was an excellent effort in response to his qu re suttas on coming out of jhana prior to enlightenment. ***** 3. You have written to Nina and others several times about the importance of concentration (Samadhi) as”‘the requisite condition for ‘truly knowing and seeing of nama and rupa’ “ as in #53032. She already gave a few comments #53044. I think it may be of significance that whenever the texts refer to yathaa bhuuta or ‘seeing things as they are’, that this refers to stages of insight or enlightenment. When there is vipassana nana, concentration and insight are ‘yoked’ together and are the basis or proximate cause for each other. I understand that when satipatthana is just developing or when there is wise reflection only, then sanna is the proximate cause for understanding. As understanding grows, so does right concentration, but it’s very easy to take wrong concentration, such as concentration with attachment, for being right concentration. That’s why I think the listening, considering, reflecting and developing of undersanding which can know the various characteristics of dhammas is so very important. I think that in the beginning when satipatthana begins to develop, the characteristic of right concentration isn’t apparent. (You may like to see a couple of other posts on ‘Yathaa bhuuta’ – #41366, & #42542). Happy to discuss further. As I mentioned, your comments and topics like this are helpful for my further consideration and further discussions with K.Sujin too! ***** 4. With regard to your post to Ven Samahita #53072 on contentment. A good topic! I don’t see ‘contentment’ as being related to the amount of belongings for householders. Simplicity or contentment is a mental state, not a physical state. If you have time, pls see these posts and add any of your comments. >Contentment (santu.t.thi)31676, 31727, 31786, 31886, 31887< I think Anathapindika handled his wealth by developing wisdom and understanding the real meaning of contentment and detachment. He also gave it all away if I recall! ***** 5. You quote from AN X.71, Akankha Sutta: Wishes: ‘Monks, dwell consummate in virtue, consummate in terms of the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha.......seeing danger in the slightest faults....etc’ ..... S: If one just follows rules, one will never see the danger in the slightest faults. It is only by really understanding unwholesome states for what they are, that such insight which sees the danger will develop. This is why only the path taught by the Buddha is adhi or higher sila, accompanied by wisdom and only the ariyan who fully understands the danger of lack of such restraint has ‘perfected’ such sila. So even the development of adhi sila has to be with wisdom and detachment from the very start. Of course there is sila without wisdom, but it’s not the condition for the development of satipatthana or the path taught by the Buddha. The Path taught by the Buddha is always accompanied by wisdom or panna, even if it’s just at the level of wise reflection of dhammas. This is why the the most useful ‘practuce’ is always the development of the understading of dhammas (realities). We cannot get away from dukkha without the wisdom which sees how there are only passing cittas now at each moment, arising and fallin in a split second. The same truths apply whatever mental states arise, whatever deeds are committed or omitted or even at moments of death or when we’re fast asleep. Without the development of such wisdom, we remain lost in samsara. ***** To be contd. ======== 53438 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Robert K: "This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at > noting plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or > in- between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta." > > Hi Robert, > > I think that's automatic, don't you? How could a feeling be "me" once > you see it? It's an object, not a subject. The main point is that no > dhamma is self. But that's a long ways off. And you should know there is > plenty of help along this long, long path. There wouldn't be a path > without lots of help. > > Larry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Robert K and all, Larry is right. It is automatic matters when it is really seen. When feeling is really seen then the following things follow. 1. knowledge of sabhava lakkhana 2. knowledge of sankhata lakkhana 3. knowledge of saama~n~na lakkhana Sabhava lakkhana means 'specific mark' 'particular mark'. Feeling has a particular mark and it is the capacity of feeling. Sankhata lakkhana means 'conditioned marks' or 'compounded mark'. Feeling has conditioned marks. It has arising, persisting, and vanishing. Saama~n~na lakkhana means 'common marks' or 'general marks'. Feeling is impermanent. Feeling is unsatisfactory. Feeling is not a self. Feeling is anicca, dukkha, anatta. If feeling is seen anatta is seen. If feeling is not seen anatta is not seen. When anatta is not seen and feeling is said to be seen then that 'seen' would not have been different from seeing of ordinary people. Because anyone can see feeling. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53439 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > I think it is > > important to realize that, for most of us- be the feeling pleasant, > > unpleasant, or neutral- it seems as if there is a `self' which > > experiences the feeling. This is a very important matter to > > consider. Thanks for bringing it up!! > > > > Metta, > > James > > ========== > Dear James and all, > This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at noting > plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or in- > between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta. > Robert --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob K, I just replied to Larry and you. If anatta is not seen then that seeing on any of dhamma is not a real seeing. When a dhamma is really seen there come knowledge on different characteristics like sabhaava, sankhata, and saamanna lakkhanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53440 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana - Not that bad ! sukinderpal Dear Tep, I am glad that you decided to stay on. =============================== Tep: [ It used to trouble me in the past to read your many questions like being shot at by a machine gun. But I have learned to let go: i.e. become mature. So now 'I' am well protected. :-) ] Sukinder: Can we just consider this to be a personal style, a way I try to get my point across? It is after all not meant to test, but to make a statement. So please don't mind my questioning style, there will be much of this even in this post. =============================== >Sukin: >"So you are saying that the Buddha taught a kind of jhana which is not mundane?" Tep: Yes. Sukinder: What seems to be implied in your statement is that there is development of jhana which is not the same as the one practiced by others, but nevertheless it is still mundane in the stages before enlightenment. So allow me to put forward the following, but do correct me if I am wrong. This Jhana is based on the experience of paramattha dhammas. Is it the same as a certain Ven. V. used to teach, i.e. the concentration gained from repeated taking of an object through the six doorways? If so, how does one explain as we move from one jhana level to the next, the need to abandon certain mental factors, like vitakka, vicara, sukkha and so on? Why is there even the need to move from one level to the next if indeed the first is enough for vipassana? I personally have a problem with the thinking which states to the effect that we need to develop concentration in order to penetrate realities. Allow me to explain. Concentration as a mental factor arises and falls with every citta and takes on the same object as the latter. The way some people talk about the need for concentration is as though it was being accumulated from one citta to the next, and regardless of any `understanding' of the object of the preceding cittas, somehow at the end of it, there is penetration of the characteristics of a particular reality. First of all, I don't see how the samadhi can be maintained with changing objects through all six doorways, or five, if eyes are closed. Secondly, I believe that it is sati and panna that needs to be developed and which results in vipassana. It is simplistic to think that mere concentration can bypass any need for the development of panna, which in fact happens very gradually, by accumulating from the lowest level of suttamaya panna. Now this may not be how you see the practice, since it seems that in your overall picture, the development can be divided into three stages, namely, sila, samadhi and panna. This is probably related to your understanding of what in fact *is* the 8FP. Perhaps your practice is based on anapanasati, and you believe that any concentration developed, is accumulated as sankhara such that it then culminates in the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path during enlightenment. Am I correct? If so, I have the following observations to make. The concentration got from observing the breath, if it is based on the `concept'; here too the question about carrying the concentration over to a paramattha dhamma and the need for "sati and panna" to be developed stands. What good is concentration developed with a concept as object do with regard to any experience of a paramattha dhamma later on? Besides, the sanna and other factors are after all also different. If on the other hand it is based on the perception of a paramattha dhamma, heat/cold, hardness/softness etc., how is it "maintained" on only a particular sensation? When one constantly comes back to the breath, after other cittas through other doorways arise including the one that `remembers' to go back to the breath, *with what "understanding" are all those other cittas perceived?* Is it satipatthana? If not, then indeed we are in effect encouraging `ignorance' if not also `lobha', which is in the `wanting' to return to the breath. If other cittas are in fact perceived with satipatthana, what is the idea of returning to the breath? If satipatthana is indeed arising, then there is a level of detachment. Moreover, from understanding however weak, the `conditioned' nature of a reality, the idea of `choosing' a particular object, seems to go against such an understanding. Are you saying that one sees the need to `keep at it' i.e. going back to the breath with the aim to increase concentration, as being a `wiser' thing to do, since the goal is to penetrate realities? If so, then my suggestions above still apply. Now there is another possible view i.e. that only with the `calm' of this level of kusala is the mind flexible enough to insight realities. But it seems that this is not what you are referring to, since you stress on `samma samadhi', so I won't comment on this. I put forward the above possible scenarios without thinking through it, and I may be wrong. In which case please correct me. But some further comments below: I think that cittas arise and fall with changing objects all the time. The very fact of this happening and that it does through all six doorways constantly with attachment, is the reason why some see it as dangerous and seek to therefore, develop calm. Now of course, one must first of all `understand' that lobha is dangerous and what conditions it. This understanding does not stay only theoretical but develops on and on to seeing it more and more often, in `experience'. It is with such an understanding and even further developed, that one then sees the need to withdraw from certain environments and develop concentration. Now this is already a fairly high level of panna (of samatha) and yet this can and more often does lead to `wrong' practices of concentration. It is a much higher level of panna which understands the true "objects", kasinas and so on, and is able to develop jhana based on that. But why am I bringing this up? Anapanasati as a samatha practice of the level of jhana requires such high understanding. To such a person when it is suggested as an object of satipatthana, it does not involve the same dangers as the ones I pointed out above. He must firstly have developed the habit to `keep at it', the breath, with right understanding of the level of samatha, in other words it is natural to `him'. He thus doesn't fall into the trap of lobha and wrong view. He knows lobha and only needs to change the understanding of this from the level of samatha to vipassana. For our level of panna, one that is so weak in terms of both samatha and vipassana, we would just end up taking the wrong path. This is why I have said that for those who have heard the Buddhist Teachings and still insist on the need of developing samatha/jhana as a means of development along the path, he will likely end up being neither here nor there. On the other hand, if we can increase our understanding of vipassana panna starting from the intellectual level, and do not try to "control" esp. with the idea of developing jhana, then going along with our accumulations, there can slowly be development of sati and panna. The hindrance, which is `wanting particular results', does not come in the way. For those who practiced jhana as a natural activity, I think this is the reason why the Buddha mentioned all the different levels of jhanas. Whosoever in the audience were at the first jhana, they could view whatever does go on normally at that level with the understanding of vipassana. And those of higher levels would have the chance to observe their level and those below them while moving up the stages. They did not need to *struggle* to *do* anything, as we too shouldn't. I realize that I haven't expressed myself very clearly. If conditions allow I may write more on another day. ;-) ====================================== > Sukin: >"Why bring in the question of whether the term `mundane jhana" was used in the Suttas?" Tep: The term "mundane" doesn't trouble me. What troubles me is the notion that the 4 rupa-jhanas in the suttas are "mundane", because they are samma-samadhi. Sukinder: OK, now I understand you better on this point. You are referring to the fact that the Jhanas are identified by the Buddha as being samma-samadhi, and since samma-samadhi is also referred by Him as being a factor of the eightfold path, then this jhana *must* be the jhana of a kind which is different from those practiced by his former teachers etc. ======================== >Sukin: >"And what according to you *is* the difference between the two kinds of jhana? Tep: Khun Sujin's followers have called "mundane" jhanas "dumb". Sukinder: And here you probably mean that some of us do not see jhana as leading to vipassana and not that we think lowly of jhana per se? ======================== > Sukin: >"As the "one" practice towards enlightenment, the Buddha taught only Satipatthana." Tep: He also taught other dhammas like the seven enlightenment factors and five faculties(indriya) in the bodhipakkhiya group of 37. Sukinder: Other dhammas yes. But the *practice* towards enlightenment is only one, and that is Satipatthana. I think you agree? ======================== > Sukin: >"Other forms of kusala development, such as dana, sila and samatha bhavana, including jhana, were taught not as a "how to" regardless of satipatthana, but were encouraged to be seen through the eye of wisdom, which is the eightfold path." Tep: The Eightfold Path is the fourth noble truth. The four noble truths also belong to the bodhipakkhiya group. Indeed, the Buddha-sassana is even more extensive than that. Sukinder: Yes, but without the practice of satipatthana, all these other Dhammas would be quite meaningless, that is, they may remain only on paper. ;-) ========================= Tep: Let the Nyanatiloka Dictionary tell us more : "Navanga-Buddha (or satthu)-sásana, the nine-fold Dispensation of the Buddha (or the Master) consists of suttas (sutta), mixed prose (geyya), exegesis (veyyákarana), verses (gáthá), solemn utterances (udána), sayings of the Blessed One (itivuttaka), birth stories (játaka), extraordinary things abbhutadhamma), and analysis (vedalla). This classification is often found in the suttas (e.g. M.22). According to the commentaries, also the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma Pitaka are comprised in that nine-fold division (see Atthasálini Tr., I, 33)." [endquote] Sukinder: Without Satipatthana……………:-( ============================ > Sukin: > "So in my opinion, making this connection between jhana and the eightfold path is because one does not appreciate the real value and significance of satipatthana." Tep: How would you validate that "charge"? Sukinder: In addition to what I wrote in the beginning of this post, there is the following; The path involves the increased understanding of *all* conditioned realities. The objective of jhana (taking the traditional meaning of jhana and in the meantime ignoring your interpretation of it, whatever that be), is seeing the danger of lobha, particularly that which is related to sense objects. Jhana does not know nor seek to know any dhamma, including itself, as a conditioned reality. It simply finds a way to shut out sense impressions and not be overcome by akusala. It sees the danger of other forms of akusala but not of avijja and it does not know miccha ditthi. Jhana suppresses lobha, so in the end it still leads to samsara. Vipassana on the other hand, sees danger in avijja. And through the only practice possible, namely satipatthana, it takes the path which is opposed to wrong view. Vipassana seeks to understand lobha, and so in the end, it chips away the stuff of which samsara is made. ============================== Tep: Whatever the Buddha did not mention, it must not be important. Period. Sukinder: It is hard to confirm what the Buddha mentioned and what he did not. The commentaries are in part there to fill up gaps, due not to any lack on the Buddha's part, but due to our own, our panna being so weak as compared to His audience that we need further explanation and expansion of ideas. ============================== > Sukin: >"Do you Tep, see the Eightfold Path as separate practices and/or things to do, unlike some of us who see it as description of dhammas accompanying each other performing their individual functions at the moment of enlightenment?" Tep: Of course the 37 dhammas in the bodhpakkhiya group are to be perfected otherwise there will be no "moment of enlightenment". Sukin: So it seems that you do perceive the development of the 8FP in the way I mentioned above. Metta, Sukin ps: I have taken a little advantage of your "letting go", hope you don't mind. ;-) 53441 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep2 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, contd (Tep, thanks for helping me to reflect further on all these topics) 6.Tep in #53188 >S : Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we would just read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations and rules, rather than about the Dhamma.< ..... >Tep: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the same bottle. You always say: Everything is a conditioned dhamma, except Nibaana, so there is no people, no self --- just the dhamma. In the ultimate sense, you are absolutely right.< .... S: What sense is there other than the ultimate one right now as we speak? There are only these dhammas. Like Lodewijk, I’ll stick to the ‘same wine’ no matter how boring it may seem to others:-):-). (Nina, I enjoyed your umbrella too with lolls :-)). Seriously, didn’t the Buddha continue to teach about what was ‘absolutely right’ for 45 years so that some of us might all get the message, however unexciting that might seem at times? As for the ‘new monks’, again it will depend on their accumulations whether they ‘see the pure dhamma’ or whether they follow the Vianya rules to their best ability but without any real understanding of dhammas and still lost in the idea of people and situations. I think that any deeper understanding of dhammas will help them (and us) to really appreciate the value of the rules. I’d suggest they study the Abhidhamma and Vinaya and Suttanta together. Without a very deep confidence in the Tipitaka, one may easily think that some rules are unimportant or that traditions can be ‘merged’ or temples should admit Theravada and Mahayana monks together and so on. ***** 7 Your message to Joop #53232 I agree with all your comments given on the value for lay-people in studying the Vinaya. (I also tend to agree with Joop that there will probably be more lay movements in the West and this is probably not a bad thing – I’d personally rather see lay movements that orders of the Sangha which are not following the Vinaya strictly. We read somewhere that the downfall of the teachings comes from such Sangha, if I recall). I also agree that the Abhidhamma-pitaka does not ‘supersede the other two baskets’. I wouldn’t set any rule as to what is studied first. Obviously a new bhikkhu has to study the Patimokkha carefully. ‘Discipline is for the sake of restraint...’ S: Discipline with understanding leads to restraint. Without understanding, it doesn’t lead to restraint. Many bhikkhus are not able to follow the rules, just as many lay people are not able to follow the precepts. ***** 8. From your message to Nina & Lodewijk #53236 Quote from AN V 114 Andhakavinda Sutta “New monks ....should be encouraged, exhorted, and established in these five things.” ... S: In other words, not an order but five things which the new monk will be established in through the development of satipatthana: a)Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha....seeing danger in the slightest faults b)Dwell with sense faculties guarded....protected by mindfulness c) Right Speech d) Dwell in seclusion e) Develop right view, endowed with right vision .... S: In other words, the eightfold path as I understand it – leading to the establishment in sila and right view. ***** 9. #53268 Simple arithmetic first? Simple visible object or other paramattha dhammas as object of awareness now! ***** 10. About the Foundation and yr nice note to Jon #53385, see what I wrote to Joop #53279. Please join us if you can. If you can’t make it Feb, consider end of March for a weekend and we’d try to join you. Metta, Sarah p.s I still have a couple more, but time for a walk - maybe,a no 3 tomorrow! Thanks again for all yr stimulating posts and good quotes. Apologies in advance for any typos - out of time for checking. ======================== 53442 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 591 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The last stock of dhammas that I have been explaining is general stock of dhammas. In general stock of dhamma or 'sabba sangaha' the last substock is Noble Truths or ariya saccaa. The first three Noble Truths have been discussed. The fourth Noble Truth is the truth of the Path leading to the cessation of the suffering. Simply it is the truth of Path or magga saccaa. That Path comprises eight parts or eight limbs or eight folds. They are right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. Other six path-factors or magganga have been discussed and there left the last two factors. They are right mindfulness and right concentration. In this post right mindfulness will be discussed. It is sammaa-sati. But it is translated as 'right mindfulness'. The words whether 'right mindfulness' or 'sammaa-sati' is not important. What is more important is that to develop genuine mindfulness, which is a path-factor. Sammaa-sati is made up of two Paa.li words. Likewise 'right mindfulness' is also made up of two English word. But if someone has not studied Dhamma and he just read 'right mindfulness' he would assume 'right' and 'mindfulness' in usual way as in other daily matters. Sammaa means 'profitable' 'right' 'genuine' 'true' 'good' 'well' 'thorough' etc. Sati means 'mindfulness to remember doing wholesome things or perform kusala' or it is 'unforgetfulness at performing kusala dhamma or good things'. Sati never arises with akusala. So 'MINDFULNESS' that thieves or robbers have is not sati. It has to be attention rather than sati. That is why the Paa.li word sati should be stick to when talking about Dhamma. If it is used as 'mindfulness' it has to be the exact word representing sati. 'mindfulness' - noun - 1. taking thought 2. taking care 3. remembering particular rules 4. retain a particular fact 5. unforgetfulness 6. 'sati'_used in Buddhists' psychology So right mindfulness has to be the definition 6 rather than definition 2, which thieves can be taking care of not to be caught by the police. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53443 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:22am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: When motion > ruupa appears, it can be realized as such, only a rupa, not ours. It appears > by itself, because of its own condiitons, we cannot make it appear. > NIna. > M: You are mixing the ultimate and the conventional in the same sentence here. You just made words (rupa) appear by typing, conventionally speaking. You can make some mental phenomena appear in a similar manner. metta Matheesha 53444 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your extensive responses. I'm sure many people can benefit from them. However, what I am most interested in right now is experience. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would rather go for experience as well. But some do not like this and some almost always compare with their mental books or real hard-back books to those, what someone says as experience. But I have to be careful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Looking closely at experience and as clearly as possible identifying what is going on. So from my point of view, the only thing that matters here is, can we clearly identify pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neutral feeling in our experience? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not? Saying this does not mean this is easy. There is a constant flow of feelings all the time. Of course they can be seen if one really try to look for and look at it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: With regard to finding feeling in the body, I agree this is a conventional way of speaking. We usually think of body consciousness (touch sensation) as "the body". So when we say we find feeling in the body, what we mean is we find feeling in, or with, body consciousness(touch sensation). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now it seem clear and that it is separate from the body. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: I also agree that we need to distinguish between touch sensation (body consciousness) and the feeling that arises with it. They are actually very closely related and often it is difficult to distinguish between the two. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the first gate into vipassanaa buildind. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Additionally, there is the phenomenon of the feeling that arises with lobha and dosa (like and dislike) arising, somehow, with body consciousness, ("in the body", so to speak). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not body-consciousness that associated with likeness, dislikeness. It is mental-impulsive consciousness, which come into existence after disappearing of body-consciousness. But we may see them in an instant as one because the flow of consciousness is so rapid to detect. So likeness, dislikeness is in the mind while there is still constant stimuli at the body, which may or may come into the mind to disturb the existing mind-consciousness of likeness- dislikeness. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: I'm not so much concerned with how or why that happens, as I am interested in _that_ it happens. I find it is very difficult to identify feeling apart from body consciousness (maybe because I'm so grounded in the kamavacara (sensuous sphere). Anyway, for whatever reason, pleasant and painful feelings of all kinds end up with body consciousness, or so it seems. And therefore this is a good way to go about identifying feeling. That's what I'm getting at. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sukha (pleasant feeling at body touches), dukkha (unpleasant feeling at body touches) are the only two that arise when body is impinged with touch-object like pain. Apart from these 2 consciousness all other consciousness arise not in connection with body-impingement. I do not understand your word 'all kinds end up with body consciousness' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: (1)What is your view on this, and (2)do you have any practical advice on 2.a)how to clearly identify feeling, 2.b)distinguishing between feeling and touch sensation (body consciousness), and 2.c)distinguishing between feeling and like or dislike? (3)Can you identify feeling apart from body consciousness? Larry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I numbered your questions to become simpler. (1) My view on this is that it is not that very difficult to identify feeling. Practice will help you see feelings of all kind. But there are people who do not like practice. By theoretical contemplation they will assign practice as *practice* and will ask theoretical exploratory questions. (2) Practical advice on identifying feeling This will be a bit hard as it is already named as 'practical advice'. First theoretical review will be needed. Then check with own experience. 1. anubhaavana nissaya --> 3 feelings (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral) 2. indriyabheda nissaya--> 5 feelings 2 body-consciousness are associated with pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling respectively. They are called sukha and dukkha. Su means 'good' 'acceptable' 'agreeable' 'likabe' and ekkha or kha means 'feeling'. Du means 'bad' unacceptable' disagreeable' 'dislikable'. 2 mind-consciousness are associated with 'unpleasant mental feeling'. The feeling is called domanassa. 'Du' or 'do' means the same as above as in dukkha. Mano or mana means 'mind'. So it is a disagreeable feeling in the mind. Somanassa is the opposite of domanassa. Upekkha is neutral feeling. But it is not somanassa plus domanassa dividied by two or sukha plus dukkha divided by two. Upekkha is made up of two words. Upa means 'not extreme' and 'ekkha' means 'feeling'. So if upekkha is put on a scale it may run somewhere between 4 to 6 if the scale runs from 1 to 9 or may be 2 to 7 or may be 2 and a half to 6 and a half. 2.a)how to clearly identify. There is a constant flow of consciousness and there is no one controlling at any stage of that flow. There are conditions that influence the flow to happen in exact order. If you want to clearly identify feeling, you will have to clearly follow wherever the mind goes. To obtain that stage you will have to practise. Practise 20 hours a day and if possible 24 hours a day. At least you may be able to practise 10 hours a day. To the least one hour a day should be done intensively. Looseness will not help. With practice there happens that most events seem to be seen with mindfulness. Say for an example you sit for 10 minutes. You place your attention at your breathing. If all 10 minutes are used up by attending the breathing with full awareness then this will bring up that the proficiency help in other activities. When the mind can well be tracked then MY PRACTICAL ADVICE is that turn the attention directly to feeling and not to the mind. At first you will be sensing the mind and you may not be able to sense the feeling purely. But with time it will become possible. When feelings can be followed then try to see them whether they are pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. When this happen likeness-dislikeness will not arise. But if they have arisen their events may be known by contemplating mind. 2.b) distinguish between feeling and touch-sensation of body This is hard. This is quite hard. Instead of seeing body- consciousness one will here see 'feeling' only. And this will be immediately be followed by likeness or dislikeness. When I walk there is not much problem. When I sit there arise disconfort in the body. This disconfort is what we refer as pain or disconfort, which is feeling. As soon as it is directed there follow many consciousness immediately. That is mostly will be unpleasant mental feeling or domanassa. So there will be domanassa cittas. They are akusala. They are akusala in the interim of kusala. This domanassa will be subtle if there is no pain but just a little disconfort. Daily life dosa is easily seen and this seeing is not a real bhavanaa and people who see will not discard their self- identity. But knowledge that experience on such disconfort is so subtle and when it is fully understood usual followers will not follow as usual. That is there arise patience. Without this patience there will not be any progress. There do arise physical disconfort and pain. When there acquire the habit of knowing many events in a matter of seconds following or tracking the mind will not be very difficult. But there is possiblity that body- consciousness's dukha feeling is the chief forerunner of domanassa cittas or dosa cittas. Sometimes it is just recognised as just a minor disturbance. At that time try to move on to another object like looking at the mind again. Because of looking at the mind body-consciousness does not arise and even though there are physical painful sensation (physiological) they will not come into consciousness and there will not be pain and so there will not follow dosa citta. When this exercise has been done then reproach the pain again and there you will see there there has arisen body-consciousness and there was painful feeling but with little or no dosa at all. This may not happen at the first instance. But try it and it worth to try. At 4th or 5th or 6th time there will be apparent that physical sensation of pain (touch-ruupa or photthabba-ruupa) is a separate one and body-consciousness to pain is a separate one. When there is no anger at all then direct the mind straight to body- consciousness that has arisen. There you will see that feeling is a phenomena and consciousness is a phenomena. If this does not happen, please do not be disappointed. This may need to go for several time. Finally with practice there will be clearer and clearer on feeling. 2.c) distinguish between feeling and likeness/dislikeness I think I have answered above. At first they seem to be fused. But with practice there will be seen as separate phenomena. 3. can you identify feeling apart from body-consciousness? I have been trying. Sometimes I do. Most of the time I don't. My suggestion will be that if feeling is directed straight consciousness will be left apart. But this need a lot of practice. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53445 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Long time no see. >Howard: It would seem to me that appreciation is a cetasika (or group of cetasikas), thus belonging to sankharakkhandha, and normally accompanied by, but not identical with, pleasant feeling. > As to distinguishing pleasant feeling from "gladness, liking, joy, or happiness," I find pleasant feeling to be a far simpler matter, being merely experiencing mental content as pleasant. We are indeed happy to experience pleasant phenomena, we like them, and we get joy/happiness from them, but their pleasant "flavor" is something different. > Tep: Your answer is a contribution. The citta-sankhara or "formations" is my understanding and it is in the broad category you gave. Now, about liking/disliking and vedana : isn't liking (not its 'joy/happiness') also mental formations? Sincerely, Tep ======== 53446 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation / Beautiful Analysis buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your analysis is beautiful: it is both investigation and meditation of the nama. The following is investigation: "let's narrow appreciation down to one dhamma, a particular kind of "like", eliminating the "because". In order to do this we have to re-play our appreciation over and over in order to catch a glimpse of it". This is a good simile: "It's like sticking your head in muddy water and trying to see a tiny fish. Get an idea of what appreciation is and look for it as you re-play it". This is meditation: "Re-play the appreciation and look in your body for a pleasant feeling. Most likely it will be rather subtle, but probably easier to identify than the actual appreciation". Very good writing, Larry. I have done similar analysis/invigation/meditation too -- it is useful for learning the Dhamma through experimenting. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Tep: "No, I cannot separate feeling from gladness, liking, joy, or > happiness. But appreciation is more complex than a feeling, right? > It might involve both feeling and perception." > > Hi Tep, > > Here's a few ideas, not necessarily "right": let's say appreciation is quasi conceptual, "I like this because it agrees with my views" or "I like this because I can see the 'good qualities' of it". Let's use these concepts as a pointer to direct our attention into the experience of appreciation. Then let's narrow appreciation down to one dhamma, a particular kind of "like", eliminating the "because". In order to do this we have to re-play our appreciation over and over in order to catch a glimpse of it. It's like sticking your head in muddy water and trying to see a tiny fish. Get an idea of what appreciation is and look for it as you re-play it. > > Then, let's take the easy route and see if we can find a pleasant > feeling associated with body consciousness that arises _because_ of > appreciation. Re-play the appreciation and look in your body for a > pleasant feeling. Most likely it will be rather subtle, but probably > easier to identify than the actual appreciation. > > This is hard to do, so it will take some application and it would > probably be easier to start with dislike and painful feeling because > they are usually more vivid (gross). However, once you get into this, identifying the elements of your experience, bad habits of all kinds start to fall apart, mostly for lack of the glue of ignorance. > > Larry > 53447 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Robert, Sukin, and Htoo) - In a message dated 12/13/05 12:50:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Robert K: "This is the main point - no matter how skilled anyone gets at > noting plaesant, unpleasant, neutral feelings, whether gross, subtle or > in- between, this won't help unless they are known as anatta." > > Hi Robert, > > I think that's automatic, don't you? How could a feeling be "me" once > you see it? It's an object, not a subject. The main point is that no > dhamma is self. But that's a long ways off. And you should know there is > plenty of help along this long, long path. There wouldn't be a path > without lots of help. > > Larry > ============================ I don't know how it is for most people, but for me it is the observing (i.e., vi~n~nana) of anything that is sensed as self - Sati's error, and not any of the objects of consciousness. My *belief* is that this observing is merely the most basic mental operation, the mere presence of experiential content without which there is psychologically nothing at all: no cetasikas, no (observed) rupas, in fact no (experiential) phenomena whatsoever. The thing is that because this operation is so basic, because "the mirror does not reflect itself," and because there are no apparent gaps in consciousness, the operation of vi~n~nana is sensed not as what it is, but as an unchanging reflective background/screen. It is mistaken for a lasting entity, a self, the Hindu atman, the Judeo-Christian-Moslem soul. My one brief no-self experience made it clear to me that the split into knower and known is merely cognitive error, resulting in a disbelief on my part in a self or in objects apprehended by a self, but the *sense* of eternal knower remains powerful, perhaps as powerful as ever. Illusion is far from easily dispatched! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53448 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/13/05 3:48:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > When motion > ruupa appears, it can be realized as such, only a rupa, not ours. It appears > by itself, because of its own condiitons, we cannot make it appear. > ================== Ah, but "we" CAN, Nina. Can you move your hand? Can you do it right now? I believe so. Volition can function, making motion arise. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53449 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: the *sense* of eternal knower remains powerful, perhaps as powerful as ever. > Illusion is far from easily dispatched! ;-) M: If you focus on this knower, even 'he' will be seen to be impermanent and vanish like a mirage.:) metta Matheesha 53450 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/13/05 3:49:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > glad to see you back. How is the grandchild, he, she? Connie would say, a > heap of dukkha, when she sent me a very realistic photo of a newborn. > Well said about the flavour. > Nina. > ========================= Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated with her birth. She has a major heart defect that will require open-heart surgery, hopefully not until she is at least 4 months old. She also has a second serious problem effecting her in various ways and that will present a real challenge for her and for her parents for the entirety of her life. Both matters came as a complete surprise, and, as you can imagine, this development brought forth much emotion in all of us. It was a bittersweet visit. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo nilovg Hi Larry, Htoo will answer you, but I have just a remark. Before the first stage of insight the difference between nama and rupa is not clearly distinguished. We are confused as to what nama is and what rupa. Also, we do not know through direct experience the difference between citta and cetasikas. But we can begin to learn different characterstics. However, if we try to know feeling, distinguishing between feeling and touch sensation (body consciousness), and distinguishing between feeling and like or dislike, you know what happens? We keep on thinking, no awareness. As Sarah said, if we overreach, trying to know what is beyond us, it distracts from awareness of what appears now. Larry, I like your remark to Rob: 'And you should know there is plenty of help along this long, long path. There wouldn't be a path without lots of help.' Nina. op 13-12-2005 03:11 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > What is your view on this, and do you have any practical advice on how > to clearly identify feeling, distinguishing between feeling and touch > sensation (body consciousness), and distinguishing between feeling and > like or dislike? Can you identify feeling apart from body consciousness? 53452 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 12/13/05 9:04:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, Howard - > > Long time no see. ----------------------------- :-) ------------------------------- > > > >Howard: It would seem to me that appreciation is a cetasika (or group > of cetasikas), thus belonging to sankharakkhandha, and normally > accompanied by, but not identical with, pleasant feeling. > > As to distinguishing pleasant feeling from "gladness, liking, > joy, or happiness," I find pleasant feeling to be a far simpler > matter, being merely experiencing mental content as pleasant. We are > indeed happy to experience pleasant phenomena, we like them, and we > get joy/happiness from them, but their pleasant "flavor" is something > different. > > > > Tep: Your answer is a contribution. The citta-sankhara or "formations" > is my understanding and it is in the broad category you gave. Now, > about liking/disliking and vedana : isn't liking (not its > 'joy/happiness') also mental formations? --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sure! --------------------------------- > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53453 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:46am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > contd > (Tep, thanks for helping me to reflect further on all these topics) > > 6.Tep in #53188 > > >S : Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we would just > read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations and > rules, rather than about the Dhamma.< > ..... > >Tep: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the same > bottle. You always say: Everything is a conditioned dhamma, except > Nibaana, so there is no people, no self --- just the dhamma. In the > ultimate sense, you are absolutely right.< > .... > S: What sense is there other than the ultimate one right now as we speak? > There are only these dhammas. Like Lodewijk, I'll stick to the `same wine' > no matter how boring it may seem to others:-):-). (Nina, I enjoyed your > umbrella too with lolls :-)). > > Seriously, didn't the Buddha continue to teach about what was `absolutely > right' for 45 years so that some of us might all get the message, however > unexciting that might seem at times? There is really nothing uninteresting about the dhamma. It is very interesting. I have studied (and practiced to a weaker extent) the dhamma for years and I never tire of it. But I do tire of the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on your high horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's teaching, but you are merely being like Don Quixote- supporting an imaginary cause and attacking windmills in your stride. Metta, James 53455 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Matheesha, I do not get your point quite. We do not have to say, it is rupa, but it has a characteristic that can be learnt, without words. But to explain we need words, don't we? Besides, I cannot create any rupa or nama, not by typing. Nina. op 13-12-2005 13:22 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > N: When motion >> ruupa appears, it can be realized as such, only a rupa, not ours. > It appears >> by itself, because of its own condiitons, we cannot make it appear. > > M: You are mixing the ultimate and the conventional in the same > sentence here. > > You just made words (rupa) appear by typing, conventionally > speaking. You can make some mental phenomena appear in a similar > manner. 53456 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo nilovg Hi Matheesha, but who is focussing? This is a serious question, and perhaps for some people it is hard to admit that there is someone focussing. I do not say this to catch you, I find it a very serious problem. I fall into this trap so often and I am very grateful to Kh Sujin helping me to realize this. Without a good friend in Dhamma I would not know. Nina. op 13-12-2005 18:19 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > H: the *sense* of eternal knower remains powerful, perhaps as powerful > as ever. >> Illusion is far from easily dispatched! ;-) > > M: If you focus on this knower, even 'he' will be seen to be > impermanent and vanish like a mirage.:) 53457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 12, no 7 nilovg Hi Howard, moving the hand is more: conventional motion, not that rupa what is motion or the element of wind, and which arises and falls away all the time in splitseconds. It is present with every group of rupas, it supports other rupas in that group. It is with sound, it is with visible object, with any other rupa. All of them arise because there are the right conditions. It may seem that I can create sound, but without the right conditions it is impossible. If you say: create hardness now, I could not, it has already arisen and fallen away and then there is a new hardness in another group of rupas. I am not a creator, master or owner of any dhamma. Nina. op 13-12-2005 16:15 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Ah, but "we" CAN, Nina. Can you move your hand? Can you do it right > now? I believe so. Volition can function, making motion arise. 53458 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep1 mlnease Hi Sarah and Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 1:35 AM Subject: [dsg] Reflections for Tep1 > Thank you very much for your kind encouragement in a couple of posts > and your open-minded consideration of details such as 'bhavana' from the > Atthasalini. I also really appreciate your research a lot, such as the > suttas you quoted for Mike on Dec 1st (no post# handy). I thought it was > an excellent effort in response to his qu re suttas on coming out of jhana > prior to enlightenment. Thanks Tep and also Sarah for pointing this out. I somehow missed it and have been unable to find it so far--would be grateful for a link if anyone can locate it. mike 53459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I truly sympathize with your family, having such unexpected rpoblems. I am sure you found the right way to be of comfort to them. But equanimity in such situations is really difficult. Let us know how things are going in four months. Best wishes from Nina. op 13-12-2005 19:42 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a > beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated > with her > birth. She has a major heart defect that will require open-heart surgery, > hopefully not until she is at least 4 months old. She also has a second > serious > problem effecting her in various ways and that will present a real challenge > for her and for her parents for the entirety of her life. Both matters came as > a > complete surprise, and, as you can imagine, this development brought forth > much emotion in all of us. It was a bittersweet visit. 53460 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 12/13/05 3:49:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > glad to see you back. How is the grandchild, he, she? Connie would say, a > > heap of dukkha, when she sent me a very realistic photo of a newborn. > > Well said about the flavour. > > Nina. > > > ========================= > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a > beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated with her > birth. She has a major heart defect that will require open-heart surgery, > hopefully not until she is at least 4 months old. She also has a second serious > problem effecting her in various ways and that will present a real challenge > for her and for her parents for the entirety of her life. Both matters came as a > complete surprise, and, as you can imagine, this development brought forth > much emotion in all of us. It was a bittersweet visit. So sorry to hear about this! I will be wishing metta for a safe recovery, and, with your permission, will send a healing request to www.heartshands.org for the radiation of metta for her healing. Metta, James 53461 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep1 buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike (and Sarah) - Thanks to Sarah for mentioning that message. I had wondered why you just disappeared after making the request. > > Thanks Tep and also Sarah for pointing this out. I somehow missed it and > have been unable to find it so far--would be grateful for a link if anyone > can locate it. > The message was posted on Nov 30, 2005. Message # 53009 Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana. Five Suttas Tep ========== 53462 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 12/13/05 12:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: the *sense* of eternal knower remains powerful, perhaps as powerful > as ever. > >Illusion is far from easily dispatched! ;-) > > M: If you focus on this knower, even 'he' will be seen to be > impermanent and vanish like a mirage.:) --------------------------------------- Howard: Not yet! ;-) But thanks!! ------------------------------------- > > metta > > Matheesha > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53463 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/13/05 2:25:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I truly sympathize with your family, having such unexpected rpoblems. I am > sure you found the right way to be of comfort to them. ---------------------------------- Howard: We cried together & comforted each other. ----------------------------------- But equanimity in> > such situations is really difficult. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is. But we will be okay. The first hurdle will be the surgery. Then, should she make it through that, which *is* expected, there will be a lifetime of trials ahead. But our son and daugher-in-law are bright and loving people, and this all will be handled well. --------------------------------- > Let us know how things are going in > four months. ---------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. I will. -------------------------------- > Best wishes from Nina. > =================== With much appreciation (ironic - the name of this thread!) and much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53464 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/13/05 2:46:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > So sorry to hear about this! -------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! I know you are, my friend! -------------------------------------- I will be wishing metta for a safe > > recovery, and, with your permission, will send a healing request to > www.heartshands.org for the radiation of metta for her healing. > > --------------------------------------- Howard: Many thanks, James. :-) ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53465 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words dacostacharles Hi Ícaro, Thanks for the translation. I have forgotten my Portuguese and Spanish. I would assume the Buddha was a learned man before his enlightenment, and threads of truth can be found every where, including the Vedic texts. This may explain the similarities (i.e., the Buddha learned from them too). Boy, I see, one day I am going to have to find Nina's books and check 'em out. However, I do have to ask, do you believe that Buddhist Doctrine evolves? >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Illusion, all is an illusion; Ok, a big illusion that we live in. > There is on reality, only illusion that which we can see, > taste, feel, hear, smell, and think about. > > Boy, with all this illusion, who needs a reality? >----------------------------------------------------------------- I: Pal, Samsara is not an illusion...it´s very real! The Octuple Noble Path is not an illusion, neither the Nibbana. There is a Theravada Sutta in which Buddha states clearly that if all could be an illusion, so Nibbana could not exist, or Octuple Noble Path or a Samsara´s exit! ............................................................................ .. C: Good point, but, where is Nibbana? And if there is no "self" who goes around in Samsara? If there is no "self" how can a Samsara exist. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of icarofranca Sent: Monday, 12 December, 2005 13:55 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words Olá Charles Da Costa! >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Are Nina's books on Zolag, Ashvagosha, and Nagarjuna >incomprehensible > because you don't agree with them? >------------------------------------------------------------------ (In Portuguese) Talvez algumas explicações possam ser adicionadas. Para um leitor atento dos Textos budistas, muitas de suas passagens e situações lembram MUITO alguns equivalentes dos Upanishads, dos Puranas Hindus, etc. Nem mesmo os textos Theravadas escapam desta comparação: O Milinda Panha, ou As Questões do Rei Milinda tem passagens e ensinamentos semelhantes aos encontrados no Kena Upanishad...mas os textos Mahayanas são verdadeiros decalques dos textos upanishadicos - quase cópias literais! (In English) Perhaps some clarifications could be added here. For the attentive reader of Buddhistic texts, many passages and situations on them remind SO MUCH similar ones in the Upanishads, the Hindu Puranas and so on. Not even the best Theravada texts manage to escape such comparisons: The Milinda Panha, for example, has passages and teachings sometimes very similar to the ones found at the Kena Upanishad...but with the Mahayana texts we have got true copies of upanishads - they are almost literal vedic texts! ( In Portuguese) Os livros de Madame Nina Van Gorkon são o resultado de muitos anos de convívio com verdadeiros expoentes da tradição theravada. Sua leitura pode ser complexa às vezes, mas é sempre proveitosa, pois esclarece os mais finos detalhes dos ensinamentos budistas... como leitor, considero-os mais sólidos em verdadeira doutrina budista do que muitos sutras mahayanas! (In English) Madamme Nina van Gorkon´s books are the result of many, many years of proximity with true Theravada tradition´s masters. Their reading can be complex sometimes, but is always Kusala, because its clarifies the most hyperfine details od Buddhistic teachings...as a reader, I consider them more grounded and solid on treu Buddhistic Doctrine than many Mahayana Sutras!!! >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Illusion, all is an illusion; Ok, a big illusion that we live in. There is > on reality, only illusion that which we can see, taste, feel, hear, smell, > and think about. > > Boy, with all this illusion, who needs a reality? >----------------------------------------------------------------- (In Portuguese) Cara, o Samsara não é ilusão...é bem real. O Caminho Óctuplo não é ilusão, tão pouco é o Nibbana. Há um Sutta Theravada em que o Buddha afirma que, se tudo fosse ilusão, não haveria Nibbana, nem Caminho Óctuplo nem sáida do Samsara! (In English) Pal, Samsara is not an illusion...it´s very real! The Octuple Noble Path is not an illusion, neither the Nibbana. There is a Theravada Sutta in which Buddha states clearly that if all could be an illusion, so Nibbana could not exist, or Octuple Noble Path or a Samsara´s exit! Best Regards! With Metta, Ícaro 53466 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words dacostacharles Phil, God you got me laughing again. Stop, you are breaking my blandness Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Sunday, 11 December, 2005 23:31 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words Hi Charles > You're crazy :-) Only the tip of the iceberg, Charles. > Ph: Yes, yes! This is good. There could be an entrance exam. etc... I thought of an improvement on my idea. There could be a sensitive software that identifies wrong view, but instead of just eliminating the offending post, which wouldn't be nice, of course, could pull a suitable post from the "useful posts" and send it to the wrong viewer in question. Really, this sort of thing is already possible, I believe. It would save time and energy that is needed for studying paramattha dhammas! :) BTW, you mentionned that you will be writing some books. Good luck with that. Phil 53467 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo matheesha333 Hi Nina, > Hi Matheesha, > but who is focussing? This is a serious question, and perhaps for some > people it is hard to admit that there is someone focussing. > I do not say this to catch you, I find it a very serious problem. I fall > into this trap so often and I am very grateful to Kh Sujin helping me to > realize this. M: There is only moments of awareness. You can chase after anything you might consider as self (the 'person who is focusing'), it might be a subtle feeling/thought you might consider as the 'thing' which you have named the self. If you repeatedly look at what you consider as the self in your meditation you dont need any book to tell you that there is no self, because it will keep disappearing as it is impermanent. Then the idea who is focusing, is academic, as you will have seen through your meditation that any idea of a self is false. This doubt 'then who is focusing' only arises when you move away from experiencing into thinking. You will begin to see that there is only experiencing. No experiencer. And that there never was a need for one. I've had students ask me the same thing before they started meditating. After they finished there was no doubt left in their minds about it. metta Matheesha 53468 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO & my own words icarofranca Hi Charles! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" > wrote: > > Hi Ícaro, > > Thanks for the translation. I have forgotten my Portuguese and >Spanish. > > I would assume the Buddha was a learned man before his >enlightenment, and > threads of truth can be found every where, including the Vedic >texts. This > may explain the similarities (i.e., the Buddha learned from them >too). > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Buddha - or better, Siddartha Gautama - had got two hindu masters, Kalama and Udraka Radaputta, soon after his departure from home, and their teachings surely included issues on some certain Upanishads. But this couldn´t be a clear startpoint for our inquiry, because Buddha kicked off all vedic teaching at the very beginning of His dispensation...so, we must begin your path with the very Buddistic texts! The "Atthakapali" is one of the oldest compilation of Suttas. From it to the monumental Abhidhamma - compilated circa three hundred years after Buddha´s passage to Parinibbana - we perceive a sure evolution of His ideas: At the Atthaka we get many ideas about how to live and meditate on the jungle, in caves, at the proximity of other hindu masters with different doctrines, how to live correctly and so on...and at the Abhidhamma we climb up to the very rare atmosphere of sheer metaphysics: the texts now haven´t got references to classical hindu day-to-day situations and drama, but long classifications and imbrications of pure ideas and how they reflects on our day-to-day - not only for hindu ones, but for all beings. In these aspects Madamme Van Gorkon´s works are a real treasure, due her long proximity with TRUE theravada masters, and her fidellity to the Buddhistic Doctrine (I am still waiting the Brave & Bold Sukinderpal post to me a unabrigded copy of the Mmme Van Gorkon´s SURVEY OF PARAMATTA DHAMMAS... after its up-and-down of Paryatti and Pativeddha I will be able to concoct more flattening words for her...heheheheh!!!) >------------------------------------------------------------------ > Boy, I see, one day I am going to have to find Nina's books and check 'em > out. However, I do have to ask, do you believe that Buddhist >Doctrine > evolves? >------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! The own Abhidhamma proves it, if you compare it with older suttas! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > C: Good point, but, where is Nibbana? > And if there is no "self" who goes around in Samsara? If there is no "self" > how can a Samsara exist. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Nibbana is a Paramattha Dhamma - a ultimate reality, like Rupa - a idea more slippery than you could innocently grab in! - Cetasika and so on. Nibbana is a Lokuttara Citta, or Supermundane form of mind... so, I could risk a definition that Nibbana´s place is inside your neurones! If you are tied to Samsara´s Wheel you get a "Self": sometimes a good thing , sometimes ...creeps!!! And definitively even considering the Samsara as only an illusion created by our illusory Self... it will not cease Dukkha! But considering all samsaric events as the flow of Rupas that surge and disappear is not negate real world existence... it´s the beginning of the real No-Self ( No-Profitability, No-Spirit or No- Matter, nevermind) approaching of buddhistic doctrine. Best Regards! With Metta, Ícaro 53469 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo matheesha333 Hi Howard, Sorry to hear about the problems in your family. Again it brings us back to what unites us on this egroup and why we are all here. metta to you and your family, Matheesha 53470 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: foundation jonoabb Hi Tep Presently our only plans for Bangkok are for the period in February when Nina and Lodewijk will be there. Tentatively, A. Sujin has set aside times during Sat 4 to Wed 8 and again Wed 15 to Sat 18 for discussion at the Foundation. If you are going to be in Bangkok at some other time, do let us know in case we can be there to join the discussion. Hoping we manage to meet up some time ;-)) Jon PS The Foundation is at Soi 78 Charoen Nakorn Rd, Bukkalo, on the Thonburi side. (If you are not familiar with this area, check out the location map for the Marriott Riverside Garden Hotel, which is about 3 minutes away by taxi) Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >What is your plan to be in Bangkok next year : your time schedule and >location of the meeting ? I ask this just in case my travel plan can be >changed. But I think it will be tough to modify the trip that has been >under full control of two women (wife & daughter). :-)) They are >ambitious enough to plan for touring Japan and India (or China) in 10 >days (March 23 - April 3). > >Thank you a whole lot for your dhamma friendship. I will be happy to >talk with you in person too. > >Best wishes, > >Tep > > 53471 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thank you for telling us about your grandaughter - I'm sure it was a real shock for you all, but I know that you and Rita will have given your son and daughter-in-law a lot of support and comfort as they do their very best to help her and give her a loving home. I think we all know here how much we can learn from difficulties such as these. Wishing you all lots of strength and courage to face any difficulties. Lots of metta to the little one too. Please let us know how things go and what her name is in due course. I'm sure baby Sarah (her sister) will also be a great help and comfort to her parents too. Lots of metta to you all from us both, Sarah (& Jon) ========= 53472 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:07pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and Sarah) - I just finished reading the Part 1 and Part 2 of Sarah's notes. My plan was to write her a reply tonight when I have more time; then I saw your post : >James: > > There is really nothing uninteresting about the dhamma. It is very > interesting. I have studied (and practiced to a weaker extent) the > dhamma for years and I never tire of it. But I do tire of > the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha > didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored > with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on > your high horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's > teaching, but you are merely being like Don Quixote- supporting an > imaginary cause and attacking windmills in your stride. > Tep: Sarah's notes touch upon the issues in which our Dhamma understandings differ. The ideas are different because our views are dfferent, and the difference is mainly due to our individual perspectives of the Teachings (hers has been influenced by Khun Sujin). Sarah has been very persistent and consistent in her belief, and she is also very persuasive and sweet. So I know that I cannot read her notes without maintaining thorough comprehension (sampajano), otherwise I would find my self unconsciously riding her "high horse" with her. :-)) Thank you for the warning. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, > > > > contd > > (Tep, thanks for helping me to reflect further on all these topics) > > > > 6.Tep in #53188 > > > > >S : Without the understanding we gain from the Abhidhamma, we > would just > > read the Vinaya or anything else to be about people and situations > and > > rules, rather than about the Dhamma.< > > ..... > > >Tep: Sarah, may I say that your answer is the same wine in the > same > > bottle. You always say: Everything is a conditioned dhamma, except > > Nibaana, so there is no people, no self --- just the dhamma. In the > > ultimate sense, you are absolutely right.< > > .... > > S: What sense is there other than the ultimate one right now as we > speak? > > There are only these dhammas. Like Lodewijk, I'll stick to > the `same wine' > > no matter how boring it may seem to others:-):-). (Nina, I enjoyed > your > > umbrella too with lolls :-)). > > > > Seriously, didn't the Buddha continue to teach about what > was `absolutely > > right' for 45 years so that some of us might all get the message, > however > > unexciting that might seem at times? (snipped) > Metta, > James > 53473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. jonoabb Dear Howard I was very sorry to hear this. It must have been a difficult visit for you, and a difficult time for your son and daughter in law also. They and the little girl are very fortunate to have the support of you and your wife as grandparents. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Nina - > >In a message dated 12/13/05 3:49:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, >vangorko@... writes: > > > >>Hi Howard, >>glad to see you back. How is the grandchild, he, she? Connie would say, a >>heap of dukkha, when she sent me a very realistic photo of a newborn. >>Well said about the flavour. >>Nina. >> >> >> >========================= > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a >beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated with her >birth. She has a major heart defect that will require open-heart surgery, >hopefully not until she is at least 4 months old. She also has a second serious >problem effecting her in various ways and that will present a real challenge >for her and for her parents for the entirety of her life. Both matters came as a >complete surprise, and, as you can imagine, this development brought forth >much emotion in all of us. It was a bittersweet visit. > >With much metta, >Howard > > 53474 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: foundation buddhistmedi... > Jon: > Presently our only plans for Bangkok are for the period in February when Nina and Lodewijk will be there. Tentatively, A. Sujin has set aside times during Sat 4 to Wed 8 and again Wed 15 to Sat 18 for discussion at the Foundation. > PS The Foundation is at Soi 78 Charoen Nakorn Rd, Bukkalo, on the > Thonburi side. > (If you are not familiar with this area, check out the location map for > the Marriott Riverside Garden Hotel, which is about 3 minutes away by taxi) > Tep: I am writing down the information in my notebook. ............. > Jon: > If you are going to be in Bangkok at some other time, do let us know in case we can be there to join the discussion. > > Hoping we manage to meet up some time ;-)) > Tep: Yes, I'll certainly email you before making any such travel. I look forward with joyful expectation to meet you and Sarah one day -- it would be 100 times more "real" than emailing! Warm regards, Tep ========== 53475 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. robmoult Hi Howard, You and your family were the primary object of my meditation this morning (metta & karuna). I hope that your understanding of the dhamma is some consolation at this difficult time. Metta & Karuna, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 12/13/05 3:49:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > glad to see you back. How is the grandchild, he, she? Connie would say, a > > heap of dukkha, when she sent me a very realistic photo of a newborn. > > Well said about the flavour. > > Nina. > > > ========================= > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a > beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated with her > birth. She has a major heart defect that will require open-heart surgery, > hopefully not until she is at least 4 months old. She also has a second serious > problem effecting her in various ways and that will present a real challenge > for her and for her parents for the entirety of her life. Both matters came as a > complete surprise, and, as you can imagine, this development brought forth > much emotion in all of us. It was a bittersweet visit. > > With much metta, > Howard > 53476 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings lbidd2 Nina: "We can learn to understand different characteristics of dhammas, without thinking about them." Hi Nina, I agree. The best coarse is to simply notice feeling as it arises and perhaps ask what is the cause of this feeling. Larry 53477 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Thanks very much for your well considered reply and advice on how to practice mindfulness of feeling. I am a little more interested in feeling as it rises in daily life, but this is very good guidance none the less. One point of clarification, you asked: Htoo: "I do not understand your word 'all kinds [of feeling] end up with body consciousness' " L: Suppose you contemplate the Buddha and generate tremendous love and appreciation for the Buddha and his teachings. This love and appreciation will cause very distinct pleasant feeling. If you look closely at this feeling I think you will find that it is supported by body consciousness, arises in conjunction with body consciousness. You can almost point to it in your body, perhaps in the heart area, conventionally speaking. Am I right? Larry 53478 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Howard: "I don't know how it is for most people, but for me it is the observing (i.e., vi~n~nana) of anything that is sensed as self - Sati's error, and not any of the objects of consciousness. My *belief* is that this observing is merely the most basic mental operation, the mere presence of experiential content without which there is psychologically nothing at all: no cetasikas, no (observed) rupas, in fact no (experiential) phenomena whatsoever. The thing is that because this operation is so basic, because "the mirror does not reflect itself," and because there are no apparent gaps in consciousness, the operation of vi~n~nana is sensed not as what it is, but as an unchanging reflective background/screen. It is mistaken for a lasting entity, a self, the Hindu atman, the Judeo-Christian-Moslem soul. My one brief no-self experience made it clear to me that the split into knower and known is merely cognitive error, resulting in a disbelief on my part in a self or in objects apprehended by a self, but the *sense* of eternal knower remains powerful, perhaps as powerful as ever.. Illusion is far from easily dispatched! ;-)" Hi Howard, I agree completely but I think there is also the case of the anatta of the object of sati. As Htoo wrote in another post, when something is seen clearly for what it is, it is automatically seen as anatta. It is as though freed, or at least loosened from a hidden bond, if only temporarily. As a matter of bhavana, there is no reason to make a big deal about this, but it does happen from time to time. Larry 53479 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Nina: "However, if we try to know feeling, distinguishing between feeling and touch sensation (body consciousness), and distinguishing between feeling and like or dislike, you know what happens? We keep on thinking, no awareness." Hi Nina, I do indeed keep thinking, but there is also awareness. I bet you are aware of a feeling right now... see? Larry 53480 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Dear Rob - In a message dated 12/13/05 5:51:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You and your family were the primary object of my meditation this > morning (metta &karuna). ---------------------------------------- Howard: What can I say, Rob! You are unfailingly kind! (Always so.) ---------------------------------------- > > I hope that your understanding of the dhamma is some consolation at > this difficult time. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, very much so! :-) ---------------------------------------- > > Metta &Karuna, > Rob M :-) > ==================== With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53481 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/13/05 5:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Dear Howard > > I was very sorry to hear this. It must have been a difficult visit for > you, and a difficult time for your son and daughter in law also. They > and the little girl are very fortunate to have the support of you and > your wife as grandparents. > > Jon > ========================= Thank you, Jon! I must say - good, kind, supportive friends are an unmatchable blessing, not only in pursuing the Dhamma but in day-to-day life. My wife and I, and my son and his wife are very fortunate in this! With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53482 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/13/05 7:59:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agree completely but I think there is also the case of the anatta of > the object of sati. As Htoo wrote in another post, when something is > seen clearly for what it is, it is automatically seen as anatta. It is > as though freed, or at least loosened from a hidden bond, if only > temporarily. As a matter of bhavana, there is no reason to make a big > deal about this, but it does happen from time to time. > > Larry > ========================== Reification of the object is, of course, major error, and anatta applies to all dhammas, not merely to consciousness. I speak only for myself when I say that my atta-making applies primarily to vi~n~nana. For me, it is far easier to see the emptiness of all other phenomena, and when I did briefly experience no-self, there was nothing but spacious emptiness, not only "within" but also "without". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53483 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Vism.XIV,207 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 207. Then according to location, painful feelings in hell are gross, while in the animal generation they are subtle.... Those among the Paranimmitavasavatti Deities are subtle only. And the pleasant should be construed throughout like the painful where suitable. ************************* 207. okaasavasena caapi niraye dukkhaa o.laarikaa. tiracchaanayoniya.m sukhumaa...pe0... paranimmitavasavattiisu sukhumaava. yathaa ca dukkhaa, eva.m sukhaapi sabbattha yathaanuruupa.m yojetabbaa. 53484 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. philofillet Hi Howard > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is a > beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems associated with her > birth. Sorry to hear about this, Howard. I know that your understanding of Dhamma will help you and all your loved ones - I feel quite confident about that. But I don't know that can help an infant. That's where the doctors come in, and she was born in a country and in circumstances in which she will be able to receive the best possible medical attention, so that's reassuring too. Phil 53485 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 philofillet Hi James > But I do tire of > the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha > didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored > with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. James, you are so wrong here. You have the Samyutta Nikaya anthology, don't you? Something hasn't clicked for you yet, apparently, because there are so many suttas that make it clear that knowing nama and rupa is the whole point of the Buddha's teaching. You could start with SN 152, if you'd like. ("What, friends, is that suffering for the understanding of which the holy ife is lived under the ascetic Gotama? - the eye, friends, is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One.") The eye, of course, is rupa. The sutta goes on to forms (rupa)?Aeye-consciousness (nama) eye-contact (nama) and feeling (nama) and so on for the other 5 doors. This is just one sutta. The Buddha's discourses are ripe with suttas that lay out nama and rupa and the conditions that operate through them. Honestly, James, I can't imagine how on earth you haven't seen that. Is it because the words "nama" and "rupa" don't appear? I didn't think you were such a Pali freak! If you can read through and reflect on the Salayatanasamyutta or other books (vagga?) in Samyutta Nikaya and come back and say knowing nama and rupa, really knowing them, is not important I will go to Egypt and wash your dirty socks and underwear for a month, for free - and Amr's too, if he'd like. :) Phil ps I mention SN only because that is the anthology I have been studying for the last year. 53486 From: connie Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:24pm Subject: Retreads nichiconn James: I do tire of the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on your high horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's teaching, but you are merely being like Don Quixote- Dear Pining-For-Truth, I, Eating Crow, from my rocky perch, you to see, follow along the shoreline sand and water and wind and daylight 'til dark and find the path of boredom leads to distraction. Sniff, sniff - despite a nagging lack of certainty that I'd know even if he stank to high heaven, I declare no, no stinkin' James. Listening for the Pro-Tester I don't even hear the sound of worms in this earthen urn, but I recall the Buddhaghosa: <>. If the Buddha did not teach nama-rupa who heard him? Is it just a lot-of-folk wisdom? peace, connie 53487 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Going to Bangkok! philofillet Hi all I've decided to go to Bangkok in February to hear some talks, meet A. Sujin and Nina and all. The danger in this is that the Minister of Finance has not approved, and it will not be easy to get her approval. As a result, I feel a resolve to work hard on my writing and private teaching and other things that can make money, so will not be posting for the time being. (Technically speaking, from Yahoo point of view, I'll "leave this group" so I won't be tempted to post and lose my valuable morning time.) But I'll still read posts in the evening. No need for any response to this. This is not one of my drama queen moves, just a practical thing. Phil 53488 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 12/13/05 8:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > > Thank you for asking about our new granddaughter, Nina. She is > a > >beautiful and sweet angel, but there were very serious problems > associated with her > >birth. > > Sorry to hear about this, Howard. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Phil! :-) -------------------------------------- I know that your understanding of > > Dhamma will help you and all your loved ones - I feel quite confident > about that. But I don't know that can help an infant. That's where the > doctors come in, and she was born in a country and in circumstances in > which she will be able to receive the best possible medical attention, > so that's reassuring too. ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you are right about the Dhamma helping me and right about the good fortune of having been born to wonderful parents in good circumstances in the United States. Kamma and its outcome is complex - too complex to try to decipher. What matters is how we react to what we are presented with. ---------------------------------- > > Phil =================== With much metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 53489 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James (and Sarah) - > > I just finished reading the Part 1 and Part 2 of Sarah's notes. My > plan was to write her a reply tonight when I have more time; then I > saw your post : > > >James: > > > > There is really nothing uninteresting about the dhamma. It is very > > interesting. I have studied (and practiced to a weaker extent) the > > dhamma for years and I never tire of it. But I do tire of > > the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha > > didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored > > with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on > > your high horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's > > teaching, but you are merely being like Don Quixote- supporting an > > imaginary cause and attacking windmills in your stride. > > > > Tep: Sarah's notes touch upon the issues in which our Dhamma > understandings differ. The ideas are different because our views are > dfferent, and the difference is mainly due to our individual > perspectives of the Teachings (hers has been influenced by Khun > Sujin). Sarah has been very persistent and consistent in her belief, > and she is also very persuasive and sweet. So I know that I cannot > read her notes without maintaining thorough comprehension (sampajano), > otherwise I would find my self unconsciously riding her "high horse" > with her. :-)) > > Thank you for the warning. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep I'm glad that you well understood my intent for that message. Some may read it and think, "Oh, James is just in one of his bad moods again." ;-)) No, I am not in a bad mood, I just think that everything needs to be taken into perspective. I have read modern writers who love the Abhidhamma and think it is everything (in this group and outside); I have also read modern writers who hate the Abhidhamma and think it should be cast out of the dhamma like a leper. I haven't read too many writers who take my position, that the Abhidhamma is fine to study as long as it is tempered with understanding from the Nikayas and Vinaya. When the Abhidhamma is tempered by these two other baskets, it cannot get too out of control and become a "Metaphysical Monster" devouring everything in its path. When that happens, you get bizarre posts, like the ones you see in this group, that no matter what the subject is (even a quite normal, everyday, conventional subject) the response is always "nama/rupa". First that is confusing, then it is irritating, then it is maddening, and finally it is just plain boring. And, I really love my metaphor of Don Quixote which just suddenly struck me. Those who emphasize the Abhidhamma above the other two baskets seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur. As in, "We know the high dhamma, the real dhamma, while the sutta followers don't". No matter how many sutta quotes they are offered or explanations to the contrary, they still see themselves as knights on a noble quest- taking taverns for castles and windmills for giants. We, in the normal world, see their antics/thinking as more than everyday delusional. Throw in the mix of the KS philosophy and you've got some real strange situation. Yes, Sarah and Nina are very sweet. I would never deny that. But I will question them repeatedly, sometimes strongly, if I think it might do some good. The nice thing to remember is that even Don Quixote, at the end of his life, realized the folly of his ways. There is hope for everyone. Metta, James 53490 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:30pm Subject: Re: The Case of Neglect ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend htootintnaing wrote: >Did you accidentally drop 'right mindfulness'? Yes indeed it seems so! How symptomatic! Thanx for noting! May I thus attain control of the senses. And by that the 3 good behaviors And by that the 4 foundations of awareness And by that the 7 producers of awakening And by that release through knowledge... : - ] > The way leading to the ceasing of ignorance is just this Noble > Eightfold Path: That is; > Right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right > livelihood, right effort and > right concentration. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 53491 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:17pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] As we have seen, the Atthasåliní states that the characteristic of sloth is opposition to “striving”, to energy. Also akusala citta is accompanied by energy (viriya), but this is wrong effort; it is different from right effort which accompanies kusala citta. When there are sloth and torpor there is no energy, no vigour to perform dåna, to observe síla, to listen to Dhamma, to study the Dhamma or to develop calm, no energy to be mindful of the reality which appears now. This does not mean that whenever there is lack of mindfulness sloth and torpor arise. As we will see, they do not arise with all types of akusala citta. As regards torpor, its characteristic is unwieldiness and its function is closing the doors of consciousness. It obstructs the performing of kusala, it “oppresses..., it injures by means of unwieldiness”, the Atthasåliní (378) explains. The manifestation of sloth is “sinking of associated states”, it causes the citta and cetasikas it accompanies to decline. The manifestation of torpor is “shrinking in taking the object” or drowsiness. The Dhammasangaùi (§1157) calls torpor (middha) “drowsiness, sleep, slumbering, somnolence”. The Atthasåliní (378) adds to drowsiness: “Drowsiness makes blinking of the eyelashes, etc.” The arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor. He can still have bodily tiredness and he may sleep, but he has no sloth and torpor(1). *** 1) Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 378. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53492 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections for Tep3 sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& all), A couple more – apologies in advance for any ‘overload’. Thankyou and others in advance for reading these somewhat cryptic notes and responding. ..... 11.In #53270 you quoted from the Vism,, 1.10 and then asking whether it didn’t suggest an order of sila, Samadhi and panna. Nina already replied. A little later in the same chapter, the text continues with this quote which I think is relevant to several of the points already discussed: ..... Vism 1,52: “Seeing fear in the slightest fault: one who has the habit (siila) of seeing fear in faults of the minutest measure, of such kinds as unintentional contravening of a minor training rule of the Patimokkha, as an unprofitable thought. He trains himself by undertaking (samaadaaya) the precepts of training: whatever there is among the precepts of training to be trained in, in all that he trains by taking it up rightly (sammaa aadaaya). ..... "And here, as far as the words ‘one restrained by the Patimokkha restraint’, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is shown by discourse in terms of persons. But all that beginning with the words ‘possessed of (proper) conduct and resort’ should be understood as said in order to show the way of practice that perfects that virtue in him who so practices it.” ..... S: I’ve previously written a ‘Musing’ on sila as samadaya (undertaking)* and discussed how there can only be ‘the way of practice that perfects that virtue’ through the development of satipatthana. The section this passage refers to as beginning with ‘possessed of (proper) conduct and resort’ is the section before this passage. At the end, it refers to the three kinds or aspects of ‘proper resort’. These are (proper) resort as support, as guarding and as anchoring. When it comes to (proper) resort as anchoring, we read: (Vism 1.51) ..... “What is (proper) resort as anchoring? It is the four foundations of mindfulness on which the mind is anchored; for this is said by the Blessed One: ‘Bhikkhus, what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own native place? It is these four foundations of mindfulness’ (S.v, 148). This is called (proper) resort as anchoring.” ..... S: See SN 47:6 ‘The Hawk’, a wonderful sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-006.html Satipatthana is the ‘way of practice that perfects that virtue’ beginning with the development of awareness of present dhammas. ***** 12. In # 53299 you ask whether I’m ‘suggesting that we should neglect developing sila because it will be taken care of when we become Sotapanna’. On the contrary, I’m suggesting that wholesome states of all kinds will only be developed with wisdom (of different levels). If there is no clear understanding of different mental states, for example, we won’t even know what should be developed. When there is abstaining from bad speech out of fear of consequences or an unhappy rebirth, for example, there may be some moments of kusala involved, but they’re likely to be very slight and preceded and followed by many, many moments of attachment to self and aversion and so on. Satipatthana is the way that wholesome states and all kinds of sila can be developed along with detachment and less clinging to oneself who may be pure in future or now. You say ‘concentration takes more time to develop’, but there is concentration at every moment. Most concentration we ‘develop’ is the unwholesome kind. When there is a moment of satipatthana, the direct awareness of a reality now, there is right concentration already, no matter how ‘unconcentrated’ we may seem by outward appearances. As you say, when such understanding and concentration become developed there is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. But this is only developed by very clearly understanding present dhammas. With regard to the Gihi Sutta you refer to in the same post, you ask why the Buddha didn’t stress ‘understanding of dhammas’ in order for adhi-sila to be perfected. I think the sutta makes it clear that adhi sila is perfected with the attainment of sotapatti magga and we know from all our other readings that this stage of enlightenment can only be realized when all stages of insight (wisdom or understanding) have been developed and attained. We need to always read the teachings as a ‘whole’, not a short sutta in isolation. Please repeat it if you think I’ve misunderstood your comments. This is a bit rushed. Finally in your post you question whether the Vinaya Pitaka can be skipped and/or whether a monk ‘can start with the Abhidhamma Pitaka’. They’re all good questions. I wouldn’t like to set any rule. One person or monk might read very little but hear enough to condition right understanding of dhammas and to appreciate the teachings in all Pitakas from these few words. We all know that the opposite is true. One can slavishly study any Pitakas and come away with nothing but ‘misconduct’, ‘craving’ and ‘wrong views’ as the quote I gave from the Atth suggested. As soon as we think in terms of ‘order’ and ‘particular books to be read first’ etc, we’re thinking of situations about dhammas rather than directly understanding dhammas now. ***** 13. Thankyou and Leo for bringing the Sattha.t.thaanaa Sutta, SN 22:57, to my attention. I wondered about the use of 'bases' in the title. (BB translates the title as ‘The Seven Cases’ but I don't know what is best.) His translation it starts off as follows: ..... “At Savatthi. ‘Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is silled in seven cases and a triple investigator is called, in this Dhamma and Discipline, a consummate one, who has fully lived the holy life, the highest kind of person.” “And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu silled in seven cases? Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation; he understands the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of form” (S: and for the other khandhas). ..... Interesting footnote: “Spk: this sutta is a statement of both congratulations (ussadanandiya) and enticement (palobhaniiya). For just as a king who has won a battle rewards and honours his victorious warriors in order to inspire the other soldiers to become heroes, so the Blessed One extols and praises the arahants in order to inspire the others to attain the fruit of arahantship.” ..... S: For the meaning of triple investigator (tividhuupaparikkhii), BB refers us to suttas where ‘skill in the elements (dhatus), sense bases (ayatanas, and dependent origination is explained in detail’. Thank you again,Tep, for helping me to reflect on many suttas and other texts. (How nice it would be if you can also help me raise some of them with K.Sujin for further discussion in Feb or perhaps the end of March!) Metta, Sarah *http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44853 ======= 53493 From: limchinkah Date: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding Abhhidhamma (Was: Dhammapada) limchinkah Hi Rob, Sorry for this late reply; I was away since last saturday and had no access to the computer. Yes, we have met before. You brought some dhamma books to my house more than a year ago when I was collecting used/old dhamma books to be sent to the prisoners in the Malaysian prisons. I like your explanations on Rupa; especially viewing Rupa as a "non-mental phenomena rather than matter". I guess I was one of those who always viewed rupas as being comprised of atoms and molecules only. I will need to download your notes and read them for more details on rupa. Thank you. metta, chinkah robmoult wrote: Hi Chin Kah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: > I find Abhidhamma very profound and quite difficult to understand. At times, I wish there is a "Abhidhamma for real Dummies" book available!! One of the difficulties people faced in learning Abhidhamma (or even the Suttas for that matter) is perhaps the english. I guess it is quite difficult to accurately translate Pali into english and authors often have to use the best-fit english word to represent a certain Pali word. For example, people often say that "suffering" is not the best english word to describe "dukkha". ===== Your name sounds familiar... Sarah sent me an email regarding your post as I have been "lurking" lately (not active on DSG). I expect to me much more active in the new year. I might be able to help you. I teach an "Abhihdamma for Beginners" class, starting at 9:45 each Sunday morning at Brickfields. A new class will be starting on January 8th. You might want to download the .PDF of last year's class notes from the files section of DSG (Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile). This year's class notes will be better :-) ===== ===== Maybe it would help if we define "rupa" as "non-mental phenomena" rather than "matter". "Matter" is a bit limiting for a definition of rupa. Let us talk about the part of the eye that allows us to see (not the whole eye, just the part that allows us to see). This is not a mental phenomena, it is rupa. A person born blind does not have this rupa while a sighted person does have this rupa. What causes a person to be born blind or sighted? It is their kamma. So the Abhidhamma explains that it is kamma (specifically rebirth linking kamma) which conditions the arising of eye-sensitivity rupa. Imagine that you see a smile on somebody's face. Is that a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. If I gesture to you, is that a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. Is the tone of my voice a mental phenomena? No, it is rupa. These are three examples of "rupa" that don't really fit the definition of "matter". They are also all conditioned to arise by consciousness. Consider something that is not living, such as a rock. According to the Abhidhamma, these things come into existence because of temperature (or you might say energy). Does a rock come into existence because of temperature? It could be argued that way. Many people are confused about rupas as they think of them like little "atoms". To understand how the Buddha analyzed rupa, one must understand why the Buddha analyzed rupa. Consider a "glass of water": - A chemist may look at it as H2O - A physicist may look at it as electrons, protons and neutrons - An artist may look at it as a way to lighten the pigment of his watercolour paints - A housewife may look at it as a way to make her cake moist So how does a Buddhist perceive a "glass of water"? - When perceived through the eye-door, it is a visible object - When perceived through the nose-door, it is an odour - When perceived through the tongue-door, it is a flavour - When perceived through the body-door, it is a combination of hardness, temperature and pressure Considering all non-living things to be "equivalent" (i.e. consisting of the same set of characteristics or rupas ) may seem quite un- scientific. However, this is a reflection of the Buddha's objective in analyzing rupa. Buddhism is not interested in how rupa interacts with other rupa; this is the domain of sciences such as physics and chemistry. The Buddha's focus was on how the mind interacts with rupa as it is the mind which leads one to live a holy life and leads one to Nibbana. Chin Kah, I could go on at some length on this subject, but I wanted to get your feedback on what I have written to see if it answers your qustion or raises more quesitons. Metta, Rob M :-) 53494 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 333- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] htootintnaing Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] As we have seen, the Atthasåliní states that the characteristic of sloth is opposition to "striving", to energy. Also akusala citta is accompanied by energy (viriya), but this is wrong effort; it is different from right effort which accompanies kusala citta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah ( & Nina ), It sounds like that sloth (thina) is opposition to energry (viiriya). But sloth is present in akusala cittas while there is its opposition energy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- When there are sloth and torpor there is no energy, no vigour to perform dåna, to observe síla, to listen to Dhamma, to study the Dhamma or to develop calm, no energy to be mindful of the reality which appears now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But when there is sloth and torpor why can akusala perform its deed if there is no energy as sloth is the opposite of energy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- This does not mean that whenever there is lack of mindfulness sloth and torpor arise. As we will see, they do not arise with all types of akusala citta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sloth and torpor is the area that is not that clear. The reasons for unclarity are 1. they are put under miscellaneous group in unwholesome mental factors while 4 cetasikas are moha-led, 4 cetasikas are dosa-led and 3 cetasikas are lobha-led. In miscellaneous group there are 3 cetasikas namely sloth, torpor, and doubt. 2. there are consciousness that need to be prompted. But when they are akusala they are said to be accompanied by sloth and torpor. But when they are kusala there is no description of sloth and torpor. My question is 'why does that happen?' While sasankharika cittas of akusala are accompanied by sloth and torpor why do sasankharika cittas of kusala not have sloth and torpor? --------------------------------------------------------------------- As regards torpor, its characteristic is unwieldiness and its function is closing the doors of consciousness. It obstructs the performing of kusala, it "oppresses..., it injures by means of unwieldiness", the Atthasåliní (378) explains. The manifestation of sloth is "sinking of associated states", it causes the citta and cetasikas it accompanies to decline. The manifestation of torpor is "shrinking in taking the object" or drowsiness. The Dhammasangaùi (§1157) calls torpor (middha) "drowsiness, sleep, slumbering, somnolence". The Atthasåliní (378) adds to drowsiness: "Drowsiness makes blinking of the eyelashes, etc." The arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor. He can still have bodily tiredness and he may sleep, but he has no sloth and torpor(1). *** 1) Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 378. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So sloth is sinker and torpor is shrinker? Could you reply me these two's facts in the form of number as you know I used to use numbering like 1, 2, 3, 4,.. Sloth's 1. character is ... 2. function is ... 3. manifestation is ... 4. immediate cause is ... and torpor's 1, 2, 3, 4... With respect, Htoo Naing > ====== > 53495 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks very much for your well considered reply and advice on how to > practice mindfulness of feeling. I am a little more interested in > feeling as it rises in daily life, but this is very good guidance none > the less. One point of clarification, you asked: > > Htoo: "I do not understand your word 'all kinds [of feeling] end up with > body consciousness' " > > L: Suppose you contemplate the Buddha and generate tremendous love and > appreciation for the Buddha and his teachings. This love and > appreciation will cause very distinct pleasant feeling. If you look > closely at this feeling I think you will find that it is supported by > body consciousness, arises in conjunction with body consciousness. You > can almost point to it in your body, perhaps in the heart area, > conventionally speaking. Am I right? > > Larry --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, If you said 'conventioanlly' that is if conventional words 'in the heart area' is used for 'feeling in the body' it might be acceptable. But when I contemplate The Buddha and His teaching and then great love arise there still is no kaaya-vinnaana or body-consciousness. Physiological responses may have been assumed as 'body- consciousness'. But the instances will have been otherwise. With Metta, Htoo Naing 53497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo, focussing nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 13-12-2005 21:53 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > M: There is only moments of awareness. You can chase after anything > you might consider as self (the 'person who is focusing'), it might > be a subtle feeling/thought ....(snipped) > You will begin to see that there is only experiencing. No > experiencer. And that there never was a need for one. > > I've had students ask me the same thing before they started > meditating. After they finished there was no doubt left in their > minds about it. ------- N: I am glad you discussed this with your students, you are a fine observer (this conventionally said). Self thought, very subtle. It is not necessarily wrong view, because we cling to self with just lobha, or with conceit, or with wrong view, three papañcas. But even if there is no doubt about non-self, the idea of self is still there as latent tendency. And even focussing, wrong samaadhi that focusses with attachment, even that is a conditioned dhamma, it has no owner. Does one ever finish meditating? I spoke to Phil about reading Survey and I said that I read and consider citta more. I do not read many sentences one after the other, but let it sink in. If there were no citta, nothing of this world would appear. I am reminded to consider the characteristic of seeing and other experiences, and, as you say, there is no experiencer. When considering characteristics that appear, we do not need to use the terms citta, cetasika, rupa. This is my meditation, we can call it meditation, it is bhavanaa, mental development. Nina. Nina. 53498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-12-2005 01:06 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "We can learn to understand different characteristics of dhammas, > without thinking about them." L: I agree. The best coarse is to simply notice feeling as it arises and > perhaps ask what is the cause of this feeling. ------- N: Kh Sujin would say: "no selection. What about this moment?" If you try to investigate the cause it is thinking again. There is not only feeling, but many other dhammas. That is why it is said in the Vis. all that is said about feeling also pertains to the other nama khandhas. It is very meaningful that there are so many explanations about all five khandhas, beginning with rupakkhandha, and after that about elements and aayatanas, before the Vis. begins with conditions and D.O. We cannot understand conditions if we are ignorant of the nama and rupa involved in them. Nina. 53499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 13-12-2005 21:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Howard: > We cried together & comforted each other. > ----------------------------------- ... there will be a > lifetime of trials ahead. But our son and daugher-in-law are bright and loving > people, and this all will be handled well. With much appreciation (ironic - the name of this thread!)> ------ N:the thread was actually about mudita, sympathetic joy, and this is fitting, not ironic. We were glad to have you back, missing you when you were away. Your story is very moving, going there full of joyful anticipation and then such an ordeal. But here is mudita: I appreciate your and your family's attitude and the fact that you have such close, warm family ties. And that you appreciated your parents' education. So, many causes for sympathetic joy. I had to miss such family ties and that caused me problems, whereas Lodewijk comes from a family like yours. When reading your story I felt like crying, and I know that this is not compassion. But there are no shoulds and shouldn'ts, whatever arises has conditions. I am reminded by wat we discussed in India: being mindful of citta, no matter internal or external. As to external, we think time and again about other people, and when we think of someone else's sadness, we may feel sadness ourselves. In that case another person's citta can bring us to dhamma now: no matter it is thinking, sadness occurring within ourselves or anything else. As Sarah remarked, one cannot be aware of someone else's citta, but this serves as a reminder to be aware now. Nothing is excluded from the objects of awareness, not even thinking about other's feelings, cittas. With anumodana, Nina. 53500 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Sukin and Tep. nilovg Hi Tep, here is Sarah's message about the foundation. Sarah: N: Every Saturday morning there is sutta reading in Thai. One receives a sheet with text and commentary. Saturday afternoon usually in English. Sunday whole day: about the satipatthanasutta, also Vinaya reading, Abhidhamma teaching by one of the assistants, and at the end of the afternoon at four: Boardmeeting but everyone is invited. This is excellent: special texts with Pali are studied and dsicussed. Nina. 53501 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > >...and become a "Metaphysical Monster" devouring everything in > its path. When that happens, you get bizarre posts, like the ones > you see in this group, that no matter what the subject is (even a > quite normal, everyday, conventional subject) the response is > always "nama/rupa". First that is confusing, then it is irritating, > then it is maddening, and finally it is just plain boring. > .... > No matter how many sutta quotes they are offered or explanations to > the contrary, they still see themselves as knights on a noble quest- > ... Hallo Phil, James, Tep, Sarah, all About Nama-Rupa Phil, of course you are right with quoting many (SN-)Suttas in which physical experiences are mentioned. But still James is right in his opinion that there is a strange exaggeration in the nama-rupa stressing again and again in DSG. (The same with the anatta- stressing: of course anatta is a coreect doctrine but's only the starting point of insight, I think) Perhaps it's another problem than James' one but what surprises me so many times is that the Abhidhammikas do as if their distinguisment nama versus rupa is something special, as a property only the Theravada-Abhidhammika has. First I had to say that I as a student of Western philosophy (and others disciplines) thought nama-rupa was neraly the same as mind- matter or soul-body as was most exact stated by the Frenchman Rene Descarte. But after reading the primary source (Dhammasangani) and Nyanaponika about phenomenology it was clear that 'rupa' does not mean at all 'matter' but 'experienced materiality': we can not know 'matter' as such but only make theories about it, and the theory about 28 rupas is a useful theory IF it's used in the right way: not as a physical theory but as a theory of how human beings can experience material qualities. In Buddhistic philosophy the nama-rupa dichotomy is (in my opinion) a good position taken in the body - mind discussions that is playing a role in all kind of philosophies and religiou system in the world the last three thousand years. It's a very good position because it works in a liberating way, not because it's an "Absolute Truth". And the Buddha, in the Suttas? Phil: I'm convinced the Buddha was not interested in matter as such, only in liberating His hearers. So in the Suttas quotes about 'the eye' etc. are only to explain us, not to make an reality-illusion of what we see. Some parts of the day I use other theories about materiality: not the liberating one of the Buddha but those of natural science. Why: not because they are liberating me but because they can rather good explain how conventional reality functions. James. I think the Buddha used 'skilful means' to teach in several ways suffering and the ending of suffering. And the nama-rupa dichotomy can be seen as one of these means. That's all: if it doesn't work for you as a liberating means: throw it away. And if it works for others persons: warn them that they should not reify it, as Howard has warned us already so many times. Does it work for me? Yes, it did; I think I have the insight namarupapariccheda-nana; but that is only the first of a list of insights (nana's) so it's no reason to use it as the core-topic of my study and meditation. Metta Joop 53502 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 592 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In one discourse The Buddha said, 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa sati? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati,aataapii sampajaano satimaa,vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, citte cittaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa,vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa sati.' Please do not be panic. These Paa.li words are simple. As you can see there are repeatitions in the passage four times or at least two times. To see this repeatition I make 4 separate lines for each one that seems to be repeating. If someone's mind is not any of these then he or she is said not to have right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. The Buddha said, in one discourse, that 'Which is right mindfulness? In this dispensation of mine (Idha), Monks, the bhikkhu has been dwelling (the tense here is inserted by me, Htoo. The original script says just 'dwell'.) noting (perceiving) the body (ruupas that arise in connection with the conventioanl physical body ) with 'right effort'[aataapi] 'clear understanding'[sampajaano] and mindfulness [satimaa] in order not to arise[vineyya] craving [abhijjhaa] and ill-will [domanassa.m] both of which tend to arise in the world [loke]. [In this dispensation of mine, the bhikkhu has been dwelling perceiving the body as body with effort, clear understanding, and mindfulness in order not to arise craving and ill-will.] , perceiving feeling , perceiving consciousness , perceiving dhamma .... . These[aya.m] can be called[vuccati] as right mindfulness [sammasati]. Note: In these 4 versions of mindfulness the differences between them are 1. kaaya (conventional physical body) 2. vedanaa(feeling) 3. citta (consciousness) 4. dhamma (the nature that are not self, the nature that are non- self) 5. kaaye & citte(all that are in 'conventional body'& 'consciousness) 6. vedanaasu & dhammesu (at feeling & at dhamma) Here 'esu' is an additional word in case of vedanaanupassana and dhammaanupassanaa while in kaayaanupassanaa and cittaanupassanaa there is no 'esu' at all. 'Ta.m kissa hetu?' Why? Because kaaya is an entity as the whole and also citta is an entity as the whole. That is citta is the whole set of all mental phenomena of citta and its associated cetasika. And kaaya is that conventional physical body with hair,nails,etc. and it itself is the whole. But vedana or feeling is just a part of consciousness and it has to depend on citta and it is one of citta's associated mental factors. Likewise, dhamma has to particularly be directed and so it is used with 'esu' or 'at'. Examples; 1.nivarana or hindrance 2.khandhaa or aggregate 3.aayatana or sense-base 4.bojjhanga or enlightenment-factor 5.saccaa or truth There is no direct entity as 'dhamma'[to be noted or perceived]. Example is that hindrance is thought that are consciousness and associated with bad mental factors like attachment, aversion, sloth- torpor, restlessness, worry, doubt. They might include in cittaanupassanaa. But as they are particular dhamma they are particularly directed. So 'dhammesu' is used instead. The other four dhamma also apply the same implications. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 53503 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:31am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,207 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 207. Then according to location, painful feelings in hell are gross, while in the animal generation they are subtle.... Those among the Paranimmitavasavatti Deities are subtle only. And the pleasant should be construed throughout like the painful where suitable. ************************* 207. okaasavasena caapi niraye dukkhaa o.laarikaa. tiracchaanayoniya.m sukhumaa...pe0... paranimmitavasavattiisu sukhumaava. yathaa ca dukkhaa, eva.m sukhaapi sabbattha yathaanuruupa.m yojetabbaa. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Thanks for this series, which is very good. I have some questions on above Paa.li. 1. pe0 ? Is it 'pelayyaala'? 2. eva.m sukhaapi? Is this 'eva.m sukha.mpi'? With much respect, Htoo Naing 53504 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:13am Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 Name & Form buddhistmedi... Hi Phil (and James) - The 'namarupa' is an important link of the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination) and there are several suttas about Paticcasamuppada. "avijja (ignorance) is the basis for the concoctings." "the sankhara (concoctings) are the basis for consciousness." "vinyana (consciousness) is the basis for name-form." "namarupa (name-form) is the basis for the sense media." "salayatana (sense media) is the basis for contact." "phassa (contact) is the basis for feeling." "vedana (feeling) is the basis for craving." and so on ... Another suuta about name & form is the Sn V.1 : Ajita-manava-puccha. Ajita's Questions (Translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland) [The Lord:] "Whatever streams are in the world, it is mindfulness that obstructs them and restricts them, and by wisdom they are cut off." [Ajita:] "It is just wisdom and mindfulness. Now mind-and-body, sir, explain this: where does it cease?" [The Lord:] "This question you have asked, Ajita, I will answer for you: where mind- and-body completely cease. By the cessation of consciousness they cease." [endquote] Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > But I do tire of > > the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the Buddha > > didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored > > with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. > > James, you are so wrong here. You have the Samyutta Nikaya > anthology, don't you? Something hasn't clicked for you yet, > apparently, because there are so many suttas that make it clear that > knowing nama and rupa is the whole point of the Buddha's teaching. > You could start with SN 152, if you'd like. ("What, friends, is that > suffering for the understanding of which the holy ife is lived under > the ascetic Gotama? - the eye, friends, is suffering: it is for the > full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the > Blessed One.") The eye, of course, is rupa. The sutta goes on to > forms (rupa)?Aeye-consciousness (nama) eye-contact (nama) and > feeling (nama) and so on for the other 5 doors. This is just one > sutta. The Buddha's discourses are ripe with suttas that lay out > nama and rupa and the conditions that operate through them. > Honestly, James, I can't imagine how on earth you haven't seen that. > Is it because the words "nama" and "rupa" don't appear? I didn't > think you were such a Pali freak! > > If you can read through and reflect on the Salayatanasamyutta or > other books (vagga?) in Samyutta Nikaya and come back and say > knowing nama and rupa, really knowing them, is not important I will > go to Egypt and wash your dirty socks and underwear for a month, for > free - and Amr's too, if he'd like. :) > > Phil > > ps I mention SN only because that is the anthology I have been > studying for the last year. > 53505 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep2 buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: James, you are so wrong here. You have the Samyutta Nikaya anthology, don't you? James: Yes I have it. I have read it from cover to cover (including all of the commentary). Phil: Something hasn't clicked for you yet, apparently, because there are so many suttas that make it clear that knowing nama and rupa is the whole point of the Buddha's teaching. James: Well, apparently something hasn't clicked for you because that isn't the whole point. The whole point of the Buddha's teaching is to become detached from nama/rupa- from everything. Simply "knowing" nama/rupa is a rudimentary first step. Phil: The sutta goes on to forms (rupa)?Aeye-consciousness (nama) eye-contact (nama) and feeling (nama) and so on for the other 5 doors. This is just one sutta. The Buddha's discourses are ripe with suttas that lay out nama and rupa and the conditions that operate through them. James: To compare the six sense bases and their objects as taught by the Buddha to the Abhidhamma with its countless categorizations and to say that they are the same, is to compare a goldfish to a whale and to say they are the same! They are most definitely not the same! Phil: If you can read through and reflect on the Salayatanasamyutta or other books (vagga?) in Samyutta Nikaya and come back and say knowing nama and rupa, really knowing them, is not important I will go to Egypt and wash your dirty socks and underwear for a month, for free - and Amr's too, if he'd like. :) James: I don't easily get embarrassed but you sure did the trick with this comment! ;-)) You can stay away from mine and Amr's dirty socks and underwear, for a while yet. ;-)) Oh gosh Phil, you are just so crazy! ;-)) Anyway, as I said earlier, "knowing" nama and rupa is a superficial first step- it is book knowledge. One must EXPERIENCE nama and rupa first hand to begin the process of detachment from them. Then, I believe, nama and rupa, as an idea, won't become so important anymore. Phil: I mention SN only because that is the anthology I have been studying for the last year. James: It is a good one to be studying. According to extensive research by Bhante Sujato, it is the most authentic of the Nikayas: http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/webmind.pdf Metta, James 53506 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: Retreads buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > James: I do tire of the "Nama/Rupa" posts in this group. Why? Because the > Buddha didn't teach that stuff!! Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored > with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on your high > horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's teaching, but you > are merely being like Don Quixote- > > Dear Pining-For-Truth, > > I, Eating Crow, from my rocky perch, you to see, follow along the > shoreline sand and water and wind and daylight 'til dark and find the path > of boredom leads to distraction. Sniff, sniff - despite a nagging lack of > certainty that I'd know even if he stank to high heaven, I declare no, no > stinkin' James. Listening for the Pro-Tester I don't even hear the sound > of worms in this earthen urn, but I recall the Buddhaghosa: < monastery many people of varying tastes meet. Through mutual opposition > they do not do their duty ... where all the duties have been performed and > the other noises do not strike the ear, in such a monastery, tho it be > large, he may live>>. If the Buddha did not teach nama-rupa who heard > him? Is it just a lot-of-folk wisdom? > > peace, > connie > Uhhhh...Connie? Or is this Jack Kerouac?? ;-) Don't have much comment except to suggest you should lay off that LSD! ;-)) Metta, James 53507 From: "upasaka_howard" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: appreciation to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Somehow your message never made it to my inbox, so I'm replying via the web site. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for telling us about your grandaughter - I'm sure it was a real > shock for you all, but I know that you and Rita will have given your son > and daughter-in-law a lot of support and comfort as they do their very > best to help her and give her a loving home. I think we all know here how > much we can learn from difficulties such as these. ----------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. Most of all has been confirmed the wonderful sustenance provided by love and compassion, received from others and felt in our hearts. ----------------------------- > > Wishing you all lots of strength and courage to face any difficulties. > Lots of metta to the little one too. Please let us know how things go and > what her name is in due course. ---------------------------- Howard: Thank you Sarah. Her name is Sophie Emma, and she is coming home from the hospital today. A number of tests were made in the last day or so, tests pertaining to possible effects of her long-term condition, and, happily, she passed them all, enabling her to come home today. So, this this a wonderful day for my son & his wife - hopeful, sweet, but a bit scarey because of Sophie's heart situation. ---------------------------- > > I'm sure baby Sarah (her sister) will also be a great help and comfort to > her parents too. ---------------------------- Howard: Mmm, yes, but ... . We're told that Sarah, 2 years and 9 months, got to see Sophie for the first time yesterday (Sophie's been in the neo-natal intensive care unit, a very protected environment), and Sarah's response, were it voiced, seemed to be somewhat along the lines of "Mmmmm, interesting, but I don't think we really need her!" ;-) Sarah is sweet and bright and delightful, but the sense of "me, me, me" begins quite early on in life, it seems!! ;-)) ---------------------------- > > Lots of metta to you all from us both, > > Sarah (& Jon) > ========= > ========================== Thank you Sarah! Sorry for having missed your post at first!! I really appreciate it, as will Rita when she sees it. With much metta, Howard 53508 From: connie Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Retreads nichiconn James: you should lay off that LSD! ;-)) Connie: Yes, I stagger under the sway of Loathsome Sensual Desire. Know a good 12-step program? 53509 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo, sati. nilovg Hi Larry, You made me laugh. I think it is more noticing, not so much awareness of a dhamma. It is still my feeling. Sati cannot be directed towards any object, and it is basic to understand this, otherwise we take for satiwhat is not sati. Sati can be aware of whatever nama or rupa appears, and it is really unpredictable what its object is. Nina. op 14-12-2005 02:02 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "However, if we try to know feeling, distinguishing between > feeling and touch sensation (body consciousness), and distinguishing > between feeling and like or dislike, you know what happens? We keep on > thinking, no awareness. > L: I do indeed keep thinking, but there is also awareness. I bet you are > aware of a feeling right now... see? 53510 From: nina Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:02am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 13, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, < Some people separate pariyatti from paìipatti which they see as something that is not part of their normal daily life, as something particular they have to be engaged in. They forget that when they study the theory, pariyatti, they should study with the aim to understand the reality that appears at this moment. One should study in order to understand that any reality of this moment is dhamma, be it seeing or hearing, but one never knew before that it was dhamma. Thus, people should study with the aim to correctly understand that nåma dhamma at this moment is the reality that experiences, the element that experiences. Nåma dhamma is not theory, but there is nåma dhamma while we are seeing now. One may have heard and understood that seeing at this moment is nåma dhamma, because it is a reality that experiences something, but the expression ³ the reality that experiences² is most difficult to understand and to penetrate. When one sees, there is something that is appearing through the eyes, but the reality of nåma that sees does not appear. Only when its characteristic appears, it can be known as an element or a kind of dhamma that is real. When people have understood this, they know that what is appearing through the eyes at this moment could not appear if there would not be nåma dhamma that has arisen and sees that object. One can gradually understand that seeing at this moment is dhamma. Therefore, when one studies the Dhamma one studies with the purpose to have right understanding of the characteristics of realities that are the truth of each moment in daily life. This can be a condition for sati to arise and to be aware and in this way one will gradually understand that when one sees at this moment, it is a reality, an element that experiences, or when one hears, that it is an element experiencing sound. People who listened at the time when the Sammåsambuddha had not yet finally passed away, could understand immediately the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. The reason was that they had developed understanding, that they had listened and considered what they had learnt to a great extent. When we read the life stories of those people we see that, before they could realize the four noble truths at the moment of enlightenment, they had to study and listen a great deal during many lives, so that they could become ³bahussuta². A person who is bahussuta (bahu is much, and suta is heard) is someone who has listened and studied a great deal in order to understand realities. As Khun Nipat has said, at that time there were no books. Therefore, people listened with understanding and they did not think of textbooks or different subjects written down in books. They heard about realities that were appearing, they could investigate and understand them immediately. Their study was based on listening and considering, they knew that what they heard concerned the reality appearing at that very moment. When the Buddha asked whether seeing was permanent or impermanent, they answered, ³impermanent². They did not memorize this from a textbook, but seeing was performing the function of seeing, and the paññå they had developed was the condition for understanding the truth of the reality at that moment. ***** Nina. 53511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Htoo: Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] nilovg Dear Htoo, I shall answer next week.I need moe time for this. Nina op 14-12-2005 10:31 schreef htootintnaing op htoo.naing@...: > It sounds like that sloth (thina) is opposition to energry (viiriya). > But sloth is present in akusala cittas while there is its opposition > energy? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > 53512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q.Vism.XIV,207 nilovg Dear Htoo, Just butting in, Htoo: 1. pe ? Is it 'pelayyaala'? > > 2. eva.m sukhaapi? Is this 'eva.m sukha.mpi'? --------- N:Pe..pe... meaning: etc. It stands for peyyala. eva.m sukhaapi : thus also pleasant feeling: sukhaa for: sukhaa vedanaa. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >> > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 207. Then according to location, painful feelings in hell are gross, > while in the animal generation they are subtle.... Those among the > Paranimmitavasavatti Deities are subtle only. And the pleasant > should be construed throughout like the painful where suitable. > ************************* > 207. okaasavasena caapi niraye dukkhaa o.laarikaa. > tiracchaanayoniya.m sukhumaa...pe0... paranimmitavasavattiisu > sukhumaava. yathaa ca dukkhaa, eva.m sukhaapi sabbattha > yathaanuruupa.m yojetabbaa. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- 53513 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:50am Subject: The Brave and The Bold! icarofranca Finally!!! I´ve got now my unabrigded copy of Mme Sujin´s THE SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS, thanks to The Brave! Bold! Dearest! Fearest! Mr. Sukinderpal!!! ( applause!) This volume is one of the most valuable of all Zolag´s Library. The questions about the Paramattha Dhammas ( Lokya and Lokuttara ) are in the core of all Abhidhamma threads of reasoning! This volume was well translated by the very skilled and able Mme Nina Van Gorkon ( Applause!) Whose knowledge of Thai language proved to be very addequate to the work to be done! Anumodana for her brave efforts!!!!! Best Studies ( I will have it, for sure!) With Metta, Ícaro 53514 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 0:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Understanding Abhhidhamma (Was: Dhammapada) buddhatrue Hi Rob M and Chinkah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > Sorry for this late reply; I was away since last saturday and had no access to the computer. > > Yes, we have met before. You brought some dhamma books to my house more than a year ago when I was collecting used/old dhamma books to be sent to the prisoners in the Malaysian prisons. > > I like your explanations on Rupa; especially viewing Rupa as a "non-mental phenomena rather than matter". I guess I was one of those who always viewed rupas as being comprised of atoms and molecules only. > > I will need to download your notes and read them for more details on rupa. > > Thank you. > > metta, > chinkah This message is just so nice and reveals the true aspects of everyday dhamma practice: delivering dhamma books to someone (who is unknown and unfamous) to be given to prisoners in Malaysian prisons- to help in their rehabilitation. That is so giving (dana) on both sides and so worthwhile (karuna) that it just does my heart good. And then, Chinkah, for you to ask for even more clarification from Rob M on rupa (a good one to ask, btw) reveals a selflessness and unassuming nature so absent in others that it could be classified as rare. Really, I am just so impressed by this and can't hardly stop my expression of appreciation...I guess I should stop before I gush.;-)) More than posts filled with Pali and explanations, this type of experience impresses me much more!! I cannot help by express my karuna!! (For others, please forgive my unabashed display.) Metta, James 53515 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Retreads buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > James: you should lay off that LSD! ;-)) > Connie: Yes, I stagger under the sway of Loathsome Sensual Desire. Know > a good 12-step program? > Sorry, no suggestions. The answer is always to look within, not outside. Metta, James 53516 From: Harry Liew Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Brave and The Bold! harryliew66 Congratulation. Please kindly let us know how to get one. Thanks. Metta, Harry icarofranca wrote: Finally!!! I´ve got now my unabrigded copy of Mme Sujin´s THE SURVEY OF PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS, thanks to The Brave! Bold! Dearest! Fearest! Mr. Sukinderpal!!! ( applause!) This volume is one of the most valuable of all Zolag´s Library. The questions about the Paramattha Dhammas ( Lokya and Lokuttara ) are in the core of all Abhidhamma threads of reasoning! This volume was well translated by the very skilled and able Mme Nina Van Gorkon ( Applause!) Whose knowledge of Thai language proved to be very addequate to the work to be done! Anumodana for her brave efforts!!!!! Best Studies ( I will have it, for sure!) <...> 53517 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Brave and The Bold! icarofranca Hi Harry, The Seeker of Truth! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Congratulation. > > Please kindly let us know how to get one. Thanks. > > Metta, > > Harry >-------------------------------------------------------------------- Thou ought to send a well mannered request to our dearest Mr.Sukinderpal, at the following e-Mail: sukinder@... expressing your profound desire to penetrate the Paramattha Dhammas´ most exquisite mysteries by the recourse of obtain ye excellent Mme Sujin´s work. Best Studies! With Metta, Ícaro 53518 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Htoo: Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[c] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > I shall answer next week.I need moe time for this. > Nina > op 14-12-2005 10:31 schreef htootintnaing op htoo.naing@g...: > > > It sounds like that sloth (thina) is opposition to energry (viiriya). > > But sloth is present in akusala cittas while there is its opposition > > energy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your urgent reply that you will be answering. I am looking forward to hearing the answer. Withb respect, Htoo Naing 53519 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Q.Vism.XIV,207 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Just butting in, > Htoo: > 1. pe ? Is it 'pelayyaala'? > > > > 2. eva.m sukhaapi? Is this 'eva.m sukha.mpi'? > --------- > N:Pe..pe... meaning: etc. It stands for peyyala. > eva.m sukhaapi : thus also pleasant feeling: sukhaa for: sukhaa vedanaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Nina, Thank you for your answers. I appreciate it very well. With respect, Htoo Naing 53520 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q.Vism.XIV,207 lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Nina answered your questions, I don't know these things. I just 'cut and paste' from the pali text that can be found in the files section at dsg yahoo. I'm going to include the pali for this thread from now on, so any translation or textual peculiarities you may notice, please bring them up. Many people here have at least a little understanding of pali and would be interested. Larry 53521 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo, sati. lbidd2 Nina: "Sati cannot be directed towards any object, and it is basic to understand this, otherwise we take for sati what is not sati. Sati can be aware of whatever nama or rupa appears, and it is really unpredictable what its object is." Hi Nina, I agree, sati just happens, but it happens more often if we notice what is happening. Also, I don't see any problem with thinking about dhammas. I think that's good. Larry 53522 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Htoo: "But when I contemplate The Buddha and His teaching and then great love arise there still is no kaaya-vinnaana or body-consciousness." Hi Htoo, What about the pleasant feeling that arises with love? For me, kaaya-vinnaana is always close by. Larry 53523 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to Sukin and Tep. The Foundation buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - Thank you Nina and Sarah for the Foundation information. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > here is Sarah's message about the foundation. > > Sarah: literally > decades, she used to give regular lectures at a famous temple in Bankgok > and at some other places. Friends would record these and after a while > they were transmitted on the radio. People would want to donate money for > the costs of this and the publishing of books etc. Gradually an > organisation developed around these activities and other students would > also start teaching or writing like Nina. People like Jon (then living in > Bangkok) would help edit and distribute the books in English and Thai, a > committee was formed and at some point the organisation would have had to > be registered etc. > > Just a few years ago, an old friend and supporter donated the land for a > building (which Azita referred to)and the activities and lectures are now > mostly held at this new centre. > I know that A.Sujin just does her best to help anyone interested to listen > or study the teachings.> > > N: Every Saturday morning there is sutta reading in Thai. One receives a > sheet with text and commentary. Saturday afternoon usually in English. > Sunday whole day: about the satipatthanasutta, also Vinaya reading, > Abhidhamma teaching by one of the assistants, and at the end of the > afternoon at four: Boardmeeting but everyone is invited. This is excellent: > special texts with Pali are studied and dsicussed. > Nina. > 53524 From: connie Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: The Brave and The Bold! nichiconn Icaro: Finally!!! Yay, Icky!! I'm grinning with delight. (SPD) But have you met our friend harry before? You might like his Content Mgt System for Pali (and other?) students if you get a chance to see it. As you know, my -heck- indiscriminate grammar? is a handicap. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I find myself terribly misunderstood... pobrecitta Woebegone! hahaha... "a witch" even - i'll bethinking meself green tara, wrath of conn! cheers: to nirutti patisambhidaa. :) to nirodha samaapati. to the great mahabhutas' amusement. with admiration, respect and head shaking, connie 53525 From: connie Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: Retreads nichiconn James: <> Nice dodge, Challenger! What L_ies within the S_elf D_eluded is: 1. a lot-of-folk wisdom 2. nama-rupa. I know we agree, but wanted to play for "the last word" to see what that was about. Will you let me have it? your friend, not jack ps Is it L.ove that makes S.uch iD.iots? 53526 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:21pm Subject: Re: Reflections for Tep1 - Reply buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (and all) - It took me quite a while to absorb the information in your series of posts ('Reflections for Tep' : 1, 2, and 3). I was really impressed by the superb writing style, the exceptional writing skill, and the rich content. The Reflections might be compared to a good old wine. The side effect was, however, -- similar to drinking too much wine -- after finishing the three Reflections yesterday I became intoxicated and felt like I was riding your "high horse" in the thin air. [James: 'Sarah, some of us are appropriately bored with a teaching that the Buddha didn't teach. So, you can get on your high horse and champion what you believe to be the Buddha's teaching, ...'] That's why I had to postpone the reply to today after having a full night rest. :-)) Seriously, I like your idea of numbering the paragraphs - it reduces a long post into subposts that are easier to handle. But I am going to be selective (i.e. skipping some subposts) this time. 2. S: Thank you very much for your kind encouragement in a couple of posts and your open-minded consideration of details such as `bhavana' from the Atthasalini. I also really appreciate your research a lot, ... Tep: Thank you for your inexhaustible kind words. In my opinion 'Atthasalini' is one exception of the existing commentaries -- do you know who the commentator(s) was(were)? 3. S: I think it may be of significance that whenever the texts refer to yathaa bhuuta or `seeing things as they are', that this refers to stages of insight or enlightenment. When there is vipassana nana, concentration and insight are `yoked' together and are the basis or proximate cause for each other. Tep: Yes, I agree with you, except about which comes first. The sutta AN XI.1 in #53032 is precise about the concentration's precedence of yathabhuta-nana. ["Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward."] ................................... >S: I understand that when satipatthana is just developing or when there is wise reflection only, then sanna is the proximate cause for understanding. As understanding grows, so does right concentration, but it's very easy to take wrong concentration, such as concentration with attachment, for being right concentration. Tep: Sanna is also a cause for mindfulness, and the faculty of mindfulness(satindriya) is the supporting condition for the faculty of concentration. The faculty of concentration(sammadhindriya) supports the faculty of discernment(pannindriya) as the following great sutta explains (I don't have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.) Please the significance of "noble disciple" who is not a worlding with no wisdom: "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, and whose mindfulness is established ('tuned'), it may be expected that- making it his object to let- he will attain concentration and singleness of mind. Whatever concentration he has, is his faculty of concentration. "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, whose mindfulness is established, and whose mind is rightly concentrated, it may be expected that he will discern: 'From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on. The total fading and cessation of ignorance, of this mass of darkness, is this peaceful, exquisite state: the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' Whatever discernment he has, is his faculty of discernment. [SN 48.50 (Aapana sutta) : a dialogue about the five faculties(Indriya) between the Buddha and the great Arahant Sariputta.] ..................... 5. S: You quote from AN X.71, Akankha Sutta: Wishes: `Monks, dwell consummate in virtue, consummate in terms of the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha ....... seeing danger in the slightest faults....etc' ..... >S: If one just follows rules, one will never see the danger in the slightest faults. It is only by really understanding unwholesome states for what they are, that such insight which sees the danger will develop. This is why only the path taught by the Buddha is adhi or higher sila, accompanied by wisdom and only the ariyan who fully understands the danger of lack of such restraint has `perfected' such sila. So even the development of adhi sila has to be with wisdom and detachment from the very start. Of course there is sila without wisdom, but it's not the condition for the development of satipatthana or the path taught by the Buddha. The Path taught by the Buddha is always accompanied by wisdom or panna, even if it's just at the level of wise reflection of dhammas. Tep: The Buddha always taught capable monks (he chose his audience carefully) -- not those who were incapable of understanding kusala/akusala. So we should assume that his monk audience already knew wholesome and unwholesome states, otherwise the Buddha would not teach them the "ending of fermentations". The Buddha: "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations —remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta] Tep: Trusting the Buddha that he would never have taught any monk who lacked wisdom or panna at the level that was enough to follow his Teachings, there would be no need to always have to repeat the significance of wisdom. The question is -- how high is this pre-requisite wisdom required by the sutta in question and what qualities must the monk train for "the ending of mental fermentations"? .......................................... S: This is why the the most useful `practice' is always the development of the understanding of dhammas (realities). We cannot get away from dukkha without the wisdom which sees how there are only passing cittas now at each moment, arising and fallin in a split second. The same truths apply whatever mental states arise, whatever deeds are committed or omitted or even at moments of death or when we're fast asleep. Without the development of such wisdom, we remain lost in samsara. Tep: Absolutely. The last kind of panna to be developed is that of the Arahant that completely eradicates all the defilements (kilesa, asava). ...................... I will give my replies to Part 2 and Part 3 later on. Thank you for your patience and strong effort committed to read my posts and respond to them in such a professional way. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I have so many of your posts printed out and which I'd like to respond to. > I hope you won't mind if I do so in note form in one post as I do when I > write to Htoo (sorry Joop for breaking up all the threads in the process). > > (snipped) 53527 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:35pm Subject: Guarding the Sense Doors ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Only by Guarding the 6 Sense Doors is one in Full Control! Here friends, having seen a form with the eye, one remains neither attracted towards any nice form, nor repelled by any disgusting form... Having heard a sound with the ear, one remains neither captivated by any fine sound, nor repulsed by any horrible sound... Having smelled a smell with the nose, one remains neither allured by any pleasant smell, nor rejected by any unpleasant smell... Having tasted a taste with the tongue, one remains neither fascinated by any delightful taste, nor reversed by any disgusting taste... Having touched a touch with the body, one remains neither tempted by any delicate touch, nor disgusted by any unpleasant touch... Having thought a idea with the mind, one remains neither enticed by any agreeable thought, nor disappointed by any disagreeable thought... One resides having established constant awareness of the body & within an infinite mind. Thereby one comes to know directly that release of mind and that release by understanding, wherein all harmful & detrimental states irreversibly ceases without remaining traces left behind... It is in this way, friends, that one lives with these sense doors guarded... Notes: Awareness of the body means seeing it as an afflicting skin-bag of bones, bowels, tendons, excrement & urine, with nine holes oozing with filth... Such continuous awareness disables any arising of desire, lust & greed! Dwelling within an infinite mind means constant attention to the aspects of: Universal Friendliness, Endless Pity, Mutual Joy, Imperturbable Equanimity. Such continuous good-will prevents any arising of hate, anger & ill-will! One should dwell like the snake, which sees the mouse hide in ant-hill with six openings! By lying rolled up on the anthill - constantly watching - the snake remains on the thought: Out of which hole may this mouse appear ?! Even so one thinks: Through which sense door may the next contact appear ?! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 35:132 IV 117-21 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 53528 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:21pm Subject: From Phil buddhatrue Hi all, Phil wrote to me off-list and asked me to post this: Hi James and all James, could you pass this on to the group? It's a little bit of a longer sign-off than the one I posted. Phil: Something hasn't clicked for you yet, apparently, because there are so many suttas that make it clear that knowing nama and rupa is the whole point of the Buddha's teaching. James: Well, apparently something hasn't clicked for you because that isn't the whole point. The whole point of the Buddha's teaching is to become detached from nama/rupa- from everything. Simply "knowing" nama/rupa is a rudimentary first step. Phil again: Well, of course the clicking process is gradual and is going on for both of us. Yes, detachment is the point, of course, but there are many suttas that make it clear that there is no detachment (or revulsion, or abandonment or any of those other terms that point at liberation) without understanding the khandas, the ayatanas (sense bases), the dhatus (elements) and whatever. We all want that, that's for sure. I know you that it's important to know these nama and rupa - didn't mean to suggest you were a dummy, which I know you're not. Wrong about "knowing" - it doesn't refer to thinking about or memorizing the name of. Much more dirct than that, and hardly rudimentary. See, you don't see that, and I can't convince you of it, so discussion of the point seems futile. I'm sure you agree with that. Phil: If you can read through and reflect on the Salayatanasamyutta or other books (vagga?) in Samyutta Nikaya and come back and say knowing nama and rupa, really knowing them, is not important I will go to Egypt and wash your dirty socks and underwear for a month, for free - and Amr's too, if he'd like. :) James: I don't easily get embarrassed but you sure did the trick with this comment! ;-)) Phil again: Oooohhh...me too. That was disgusting. I meant to write "cook you delicious and nutritious meals for a month" but my fingers slipped. This is the last time I'll be writing to you about Dhamma for a good little while, I suspect, James, though I hope to keep in touch with you off-list about this and that. I like you a lot. But I've come to the conclusion, for the time being a lot, that for people of nascent understanding it is best not to participate in debates or discussions with people whose views are radically different. Of course, that is not politically correct, but I think such discussions just cause understanding to be exploited prematurely and with excessive, forced confidence - it is best for understanding to arise in unpredicted ways. If it's something that we pull out to use in internet discussions, it is not understanding, it is Phil's understanding, or James' understanding, and then it is does not help the development of understanding. This may be different for people like Nina who have developed a consistent understanding that can be tapped, if you will, whenever it is needed. It just bubbles forth. For me, there is too much greedy grasping for understanding, so I will not do it here for the time being, for the same of my own bhavana (mental development). This is why I talk of dojo busting - it is not because I cling to a pleasant, consistent atmosphere where my guru is respected - it's because I think clashing of views, no matter how polite, is contrary to bhavana for people of nascent understanding. Danger that I will just get sucked into a wrong view vortex? No, because I have the Buddha's discourses.?@For example, my nagging doubts about A. Sujin's approach to samadhi didn't come from reading about it in posts from you or anyone else, it came from my own reading of and reflection on suttas. We'll see if I come to see the value of debate and discussion in a different way. In the meantime I will keep responding now and then to Nina's posts off-list and ask questions about A. Sujin's teaching and ask her to pass them on to the group. There is disagreement arising on some points, but not so radical, so discussing the points can involve understanind sinking in rather than understanding being thrust on one another. (It's interesting that I have never rehearsed or mentally re-written posts to Nina or Robert K, but with you or Tep or Swee I could spend a whole afternoon obsessing about them - another sign of unwholesome attachment to self-identity or something, I don't know.) Anyways, I wish you very well, James, and all the other people I won't be writing to for awhile for the reasons above! :) Love, Phil 53529 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:50pm Subject: Reply to Sukinder's Questions -- Part I buddhistmedi... Dear Sukin - One unique quality of DSG has been its knowledgeable members who are skillful thinkers, although there is no guarantee that they really know what they think they know. :-) Your reply gave me a similar intoxication that I got while reading Sarah's messages (Reflections for Tep). On the other hand, I also like your superb writing style, the exceptional skill, and the rich content. But I will take your advice to skip some parts of your post. >Sukinder: I am glad that you decided to stay on. Tep: I appreciate your persuasion. I didn't mean to behave like a drama queen. .................. >Sukinder: What seems to be implied in your statement is that there is development of jhana which is not the same as the one practiced by others, but nevertheless it is still mundane in the stages before enlightenment. This Jhana is based on the experience of paramattha dhammas. Is it the same as a certain Ven. V. used to teach, i.e. the concentration gained from repeated taking of an object through the six doorways? If so, how does one explain as we move from one jhana level to the next, the need to abandon certain mental factors, like vitakka, vicara, sukkha and so on? Why is there even the need to move from one level to the next if indeed the first is enough for vipassana? Tep: I am sorry, Sukin, I don't follow. Are you talking about Ven. Vimalaramsi? My focus has been on the Buddha's four rupa-jhanas in a noble disciple. This is the only kind of jhanas known as the faculty of concentration(sammadhindriya) and samma-ditthi in several suttas. 'And where is the faculty of concentration to be seen? In the four jhanas....' [SN.XLVIII.8 Paragraph 69 in "Wings to Awakening"] 'And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation-internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters and remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain-as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress-he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration.' [SN XLVIII.10: Indriya-vibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Mental Faculties] .................. >Sukinder: I personally have a problem with the thinking which states to the effect that we need to develop concentration in order to penetrate realities. Tep: Well, if you don't feel comfortable thinking like that, then don't think that way. It is plain and simple. In the above sutta the Buddha describes various mental states through the attainment of the four jhanas, proceeding from the 1st to the 4th jhana. Without the clear description like that, how can the monk know what really happens during his meditation? The Buddha did not say you must 'do this, then that' -- he just described the conditioned phenomena of the jhanas. ................ >Sukinder: Concentration as a mental factor arises and falls with every citta and takes on the same object as the latter. The way some people talk about the need for concentration is as though it was being accumulated from one citta to the next, and regardless of any `understanding' of the object of the preceding cittas, somehow at the end of it, there is penetration of the characteristics of a particular reality. Tep: Again, without boring you too much, I want to repeat that you don't have to be confused by "some people" talking about this or that. Stop thinking about them. Just slowly read the above sutta about the sequential phenomena of the four rupa-jhanas. See? The Buddha did not say anything of that sort ( "accumulation", "need for concentration", etc.) Don't like the translation? No problem. Go to the original Pali text. ................ Tep : In order to handle your long and information-packed post please allow me to group your related main points together, then I am going to answer them in one sweep. >Sukinder: 1. I don't see how the samadhi can be maintained with changing objects through all six doorways, or five, if eyes are closed. 2. I believe that it is sati and panna that needs to be developed and which results in vipassana. 3. It is simplistic to think that mere concentration can bypass any need for the development of panna, which in fact happens very gradually, by accumulating from the lowest level of suttamaya panna. . .. the development can be divided into three stages, namely, sila, samadhi and panna. 4. Perhaps your practice is based on anapanasati, and you believe that any concentration developed, is accumulated as sankhara such that it then culminates in the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path during enlightenment. Am I correct? Tep: There are no words of the Buddha like 'Monks, close your eye before meditating'. Sati, samadhi and panna are three of the five indriyas; they also are parts of the five balas, the eight maggas, and the seven bojjhangas. Therefore, nobody with a good working knowledge of the Buddha's teachings will ever "bypass" panna development. Anapanasati is a complex training that involves all three adhi-sikkhas. Again, the Buddha or the great Arahant Sariputta (in the Breathing Treatise, for example) never mentioned the magic words "accumulated as a sankhara" along with samadhi or anapanasati! Where did you get that idea? Of course, you are incorrect. Yet, I am going to answer some of your questions on anapanasati (as a practitioner). ............................... >Sukinder: The concentration got from observing the breath, if it is based on the `concept'; here too the question about carrying the concentration over to a paramattha dhamma and the need for "sati and panna" to be developed stands. What good is concentration developed with a concept as object do with regard to any experience of a paramattha dhamma later on? Besides, the sanna and other factors are after all also different. Tep: It is always easy just to ask questions. Yes, you may ask about the whole universe too. But who can answer all your questions? So please allow me to reply as closely related to your questions as I possibly can. Whether the breaths are concept or not it is not important, since the Buddha, or Arahants like Ven. Sariputta and Ananda never talked about the breaths as concept versus paramattha dhammas. Through experiencing the breaths the meditator develops unification and non-distraction of the citta free from the hindrances -- i.e. serenity(samatha). That's very important all by itself. Why keep asking for more? Para 193 (Breathing Treatise). 'Ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out': he is a mindful worker in thirty-two aspects: (1) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in long, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. (2) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing out long, ... (32) When he knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing out contemplating relinquishiment, mindfulness is established(founded) in him; by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is a mindful worker. The anapanasati with 32 modes in 4 tetrads is equivalent to the four foundations of satipatthana, and when fully developed the seven bojjhanga are also fulfilled. It leads to Arahantship. Who wants to ask more questions? Arahantship isn't enough? ........................... >Sukinder: If satipatthana is indeed arising, then there is a level of detachment. Moreover, from understanding however weak, the `conditioned' nature of a reality, the idea of `choosing' a particular object, seems to go against such an understanding. Are you saying that one sees the need to `keep at it' i.e. going back to the breath with the aim to increase concentration, as being a `wiser' thing to do, since the goal is to penetrate realities? If so, then my suggestions above still apply. Tep: I think many scientists many years ago must have asked millions of questions about the Mars and Venus. Now that they have got real images and samples sent back to Earth everyday, they no longer ask most of those questions. My comments in dsg #47416 should answer some of your above questions: It is important to remember that there are 16 objects(vattthu) of the anapanasati bhavana (or 32 if you break it further according to in-breath and out-breath, i.e. 16x2 = 32). It is also important to recognize that even the first object, long in- & out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity as described in para 194 (the Thai version says that when upekkha is established, cognizance will move away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths). Recall from para 193 that mindfulness is established when the bhikkhu knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in & out long. He is a mindful worker "by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge". Then in para 196 it is stated that with unification of cognizance sati "remains" at the object, and by means of "that sati and that knowledge" he contemplates the body as a body. We may also say that the first vatthu of anapanasati can be employed to condition sati and sampajanna to arise with equanimity. At this point I would say 'the bhikkhu' has developed both samatha and vipassana. 247. He trains these three sikkhaa (adhisiila, adhicitta, adhipannaa) by adverting (imaa tisso sikkhaayo aavajjanto sikkhati) by knowing, ... (jaananto sikkhati) by seeing, ... (passanto sikkhati) . by reviewing, ... (paccavekkhanto sikkhati) by steadying his cognizance, .... (cittamadhitthahanto sikkhati) by resolving with faith, .... (saddhaaya adhimuccanto sikkhati) by exerting energy, ... (viiriyam pagganhanto sikkhati) by establishing mindfulness, ... (satim upatthapento sikkhati) by concentrating cognizance, … (cittam samaadahanto sikkhati) by understanding with understanding, ... (pannaaya pajaananto sikkhati) by directly knowing what is to be directly known,...(abhinneyyam abhijaananto sikkhati) by fully understanding what is to be fully understood,... (parinneyyam parijaananto sikkhati) by abandoning what is to be abandoned, ...(pahaatabbam pajahanto sikkhati) by developing what is to be developed, ...(bhaavetabbam bhaavento sikkhati) by realizing what is to be realized, …(sacchikaatabbam sacchikaronto sikkhati) ............................... Tep: I will address at least half of the remaining questions in the Part 2. Thank you for hoping that I am knowledgeable enough to readily have correct answers to those universal questions of yours. Maybe one day I can. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I am glad that you decided to stay on. > > =============================== > Tep: > [ It used to trouble me in the past to read your many questions like > being shot at by a machine gun. But I have learned to let go: i.e. > become mature. So now 'I' am well protected. :-) ] > > Sukinder: > Can we just consider this to be a personal style, a way I try to get my > point across? It is after all not meant to test, but to make a statement. > So please don't mind my questioning style, there will be much of this > even in this post. > > =============================== > (snipped) 53530 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:49pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 334- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[d] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] We may be inclined to think that sloth and torpor arise only when there is sleepiness, but when we study the types of citta which can be accompanied by sloth and torpor we will see that there can be many moments of them, also when we do not feel sleepy. As we have seen, the proximate cause of sloth and torpor is “unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from discontent and laziness”. When there are sloth and torpor there is “unsystematic thought”, that is, unwise attention (ayoniso manasikåra) to the object which is experienced. At such moments we do not realize that life is short and that it is urgent to develop all kinds of kusala and in particular right understanding of realities. We all have moments that there is no energy to read the scriptures or to consider the Dhamma. We may be overcome by boredom, we are not interested to study and to consider the Dhamma, or we make ourselves believe that we are too busy. Sometimes, however, we may realize that even the reading of a few lines of the scriptures can be most beneficial, that it can remind us to be aware of realities which appear. We should remember that when there are sloth and torpor we are not merely standing still as to the development of kusala, but we are “sinking”, we are going “downhill”, since there is opportunity for the accumulation of more akusala. If we realize that the opportunity to develop right understanding of the present moment is only at the present moment, not at some moment in the future, there can be conditions for mindfulness and then there is “wise attention” instead of “unwise attention”. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 53531 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Brave and The Bold! sarahprocter... Dear Harry, May I take this chance to welcome you here as well. I hope you'll join in any threads and help us out with any Pali points as well. Please tell us a little about your background and where you live too, if you don't mind. --- Harry Liew wrote: > Congratulation. > > Please kindly let us know how to get one. Thanks. > > Metta, > > Harry > > icarofranca wrote: > Finally!!! > I´ve got now my unabrigded copy of Mme Sujin´s THE SURVEY OF > PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS, <...> ... I'd like to mention firstly that you can find this text here oon Rob K's website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ It has recently been published and copies are available. Jon, Nina and I are covering the costs of distribution for old 'regulars' like Icaro, but if any new members or any old members wish to have copies sent to friends or libraries, pls make sure you arrange to cover postage costs when you contact Sukin so that he doesn't end up out of pocket! Metta, Sarah ========= 53532 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reflections for Tep2 sarahprocter... Hi James (& Phil), I'd like to respond to your reply to Phil...(btw, thx for f/w any correspondence from Phil -- hope for your sake he types them rather than sends them in his hand-writing to you:-)). ... --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: <...> The whole point of the Buddha's > teaching is to become detached from nama/rupa- from everything. > Simply "knowing" nama/rupa is a rudimentary first step. .... S: I think this is actually very good, James. I agree with you that the point is to become detachmed from namas and rupas, from everything! So if we agree on this, the rest should be simple:-). Simply 'knowing' namas and rupas is THE 'rudimentary first step', but it is also a big step imho. As you and others often suggest, it's easy to talk ad nauseum about namas and rupas, but I think that to directly be aware and understand namas as namas right now and rupas as rupas right now is not so simple. For example, sually seeing, visible object and eye-base are taken for for things such as computers, fingers and my vision. There usually is no awareness at the present moment of just the characterisitic which sees or that which is seen. Knowing dhammas now is the only way that detachment will grow and without some detachment from these dhammas in the first place, they will never be known either. That's why even the rudimentary first step of understanding has to be with detachment. Theoretical understanding is the basis, but until there is direct understanding of nama/rupa, there's no first step of satipatthana. ..... > James: To compare the six sense bases and their objects as taught by > the Buddha to the Abhidhamma with its countless categorizations and > to say that they are the same, is to compare a goldfish to a whale > and to say they are the same! They are most definitely not the same! .... S: I know what you're saying. The 6 pairs of ayatanas actually include all dhammas or all namas and rupas. Only when there is the coming together of various ayatanas can there be any experience at all. All those 'countless categorizations' merely 'finetune' or add 'the small print' to the details given in the Sutta Pitaka for those of us with more than a little dust in our eyes to see. Of course, if analysed and theorised without any real understanding, those 'countless categorizations' will just throw more dust into our eyes. Hence the warnings given about grasping the snake in the wrong way and the vexation or madness that can come from studying the Abhidhamma wrongly (as I added the other day from the Atthasalini [commentary by Buddhaghosa, Tep] which I added the other day for balance:-). .... >Anyway, as I said earlier, "knowing" nama and > rupa is a superficial first step- it is book knowledge. One must > EXPERIENCE nama and rupa first hand to begin the process of > detachment from them. ... S: Ok, I'm with your use of 'knowing' now. I wouldn't call book knowledge any 'knowing', but if it's with a level of understanding then I see it can be considered as a 'superficial first step'. I agree with you that there has to be direct EXPERIENCE or knowledge of nama and rupa first hand 'to begin the process of detachment from them'. Really, this is good stuff, James. .... >Then, I believe, nama and rupa, as an idea, > won't become so important anymore. .... S: You have a point here too. When there is direct understanding of namas and rupas, no need to talk or think about them, because panna just knows them when they are apparent. However, if we wish to discuss with others or share any glimmers of understanding, we have to use the concepts or ideas about namas and rupas again, wouldn't you say? Actually, it seems to me that quite a lot has been 'clicking' for you in your sutta and abhidhamma studies. If Phil had read your early anti-rupa, anti-abhidhamma posts and so on, I'm sure he'd agree:-). ... > Phil: I mention SN only because that is the anthology I have been > studying for the last year. > > James: It is a good one to be studying. According to extensive > research by Bhante Sujato, it is the most authentic of the Nikayas: > http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings/webmind.pdf .... S: I haven't looked at the link as yet, but at least we all agree then that all the SN suttas are authentic? So we can keep referring to them in our discussions perhaps. I used to really enjoy and appreciate our studies which you led from the first sections of the text. Perhaps you'd like to introduce a later section such as the Khandhavagga or Salayatanasamyutta. I still have some discussion pending with B.Bodhi on the latter -I find some suttas and points more and more subtle. Lots and lots for me to keep reflecting on. Metta, Sarah p.s As an 'old-timer' here, we'd really like to send you a copy of Survey, James. Pls send your address to Sukin if you'd care to take a look at it. Of course, if there's any chance of your visiting Bkk when Phil and we all are there, you could pick it up! ======================= 53533 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Jonathan (Nina and Sarah, Hatoo)- > >I was pleasantly surprised to see your unusually long post #53364. >Thank you very much, Friend, for the time and effort you put into >reviewing the messages I wrote earlier and writing up this unsual >message. I have a feeling that we are going to rectify several >troublesome issues this time ! > Well my thanks to you for pursuing these important issues. Your messages are always full of meat and quite a challenge to respond to ;-)). Despite our present differences, I think that with patience and perseverance we will one day come to an agreed view on things. >Tep: You said it so well. The communication was two-way, and so >when misunderstandings happened they were two-way as well. >Therefore, I am sorry -- and offer my apologies to all -- for expecting >others to understand 'me' (a one-way, selfish street) because they too >have the right to believe or not believe anything, anyway they want ! >You're right, I was silly to be disheartened. My expectation this time is >clearly a "greed" . > My comments about being misunderstood were not made with you or anyone in particular in mind, so there is really nothing for you to apologise for. But thanks anyway for the sentiment. >Tep: Yes, it is true that weak beginning in any of the three should not >forbid us from trying to develop the other two. But the question is 'how >far can we go?' > The answer to the question, 'How far can we go?' is I think an easy one: in any given lifetime, progress along the path can only be marginal, or incremental, in terms of the overall journey through samsara. Only someone already very close to enlightenment, by virtue of panna accumulated in previous existences, has the chance of enlightenment. >The problem as stated by the suttas is that we cannot >develop samadhi to 'great fruit and great benefit' without a perfect sila, >and similarly we cannot develop panna to achieve great fruit and great >benefit without fully-developed samadhi. ['Being endowed with >morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed >with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being >endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers >(asava)'. D. 16 and A.IV,1] > Well the suttas don't say it's a 'problem'! That happens to be the way things are ;-)) That's why the whole question of 'how far' is a distracting, and possibly dangerous, one to concern oneself with. I think that if indeed we have come to the very brink of 'great fruit and great benefit' in our journey through samsara, then there's every chance that the great fruit and great benefit will occur in this lifetime; but if we haven't then no amount of 'practising' or strategizing is going to make it happen. And it seems to me that having an (unrealistic) expectation of high achievement would be a bar to any development of the path occurring at all in this lifetime. >As to the *prescribed order of practice* I >agree with you that there is no fixed order cast in stone. > I'm glad we can agree on this point, I think it's a very significant one. We should not confuse descriptions of *the order in which path factors are developed or attainments are achieved* for descriptions of *how insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma is to be developed*. >>Jon: I take this sutta to be a description of the order in which things occur, rather than the order in which a person is supposed to 'practice' >>(note that the Buddha is not telling Ananda that he or anyone should 'do >>this, then that'). >> > >Tep: It is good to carefully separate the random-order development of >sila-samadhi-panna in worldlings from the order of their fulfillment or >culmination at the lokuttara level. Let me tell you my story of wrong >practice. > >A non-ariyan like me used to contemplate as follows: 'The eye is >impermanent'... >... ... >Then, it dawned on me, after having struggled for a long time, >that there was indeed a real order in the practice of the Buddha's >Teachings. > I can see you are very earnest in your intention to develop the path. But I think you will agree, on the basis of your past experience as related here, that being earnest is of no benefit if one's understanding of the development of the path is not correct in the first place. A correct intellectual understanding of the teachings is crucial, otherwise the 'practice' is bound to be wrong. Sila and samadhi can only be perfected by panna, that is to say, the panna that is insight into the true nature of dhammas. Each kind of kusala supports the other 2 kinds. There is no 'order' for the kind of kusala that is to be developed at any given moment (for example, as we read/write this message). >Only by testing out the hard way, I can see the truth in the suttas. Do you >want to be deluded like me and waste your time too? > I appreciate your sincere wish to save others from the same errors that you have made. I think that the best advice is for there to be more consideration of the teachings, listening to/discussion with those who have a sound grasp of the teachings, and reflection on what has been heard and understood. That minimises the chances of wrong practice being pursued. Hoping we are still managing to sort out some issues ;-)) Jon 53534 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. Mind-door processes. Building a Castle In the Air? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: Indeed "we would all like to see kusala cittas arising most or >all of the time". If it is not realistic, then why does Satipatthana Sutta >emphisize abandoning 'abhijjha & domanassa' in every dwelling >moment ? [Kaye-kayanupassi ... vedanasu vednanupassi ..citte- >cittanupassi .. dhamesu dhammanupassi viharati, atapi sampajano >satima, vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam.] > Thanks for referring us to the Satipatthana sutta. I think you are suggesting that since this sutta emphasizes abandoning 'abhijjha & domanassa' in every dwelling moment, it must therefore be possible for there to be kusala most or all of the time. The passage you have quoted reads: "What are the four [i.e., the Four Arousings of Mindfulness that is the only way for the attainment of Nibbana]? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; ... [and the same for feelings, consciousness and dhammas]". I would read this as applying on a moment-to-moment basis. That is to say, a moment of development of the path is a moment when there is energy/effort (viriya, here 'a bhikkhu lives ... ardent'), sampajanna (here 'clearly comprehending') and awareness (here 'mindful') arising together, and when lobha and dosa are absent (here 'having overcome covetousness and grief'). Such a moment is called 'contemplating the body in the body', 'contemplating feelings in feelings', etc. depending on the object of the consciousness in question. However, only when such sati and panna has been highly developed will it occur with any great frequency. So 'lives contemplating the body in the body' in the passage has to be read accordingly. >Because of your worry about the "multiple moments of kusala and >akusala citta interspersed with each other" you have missed the >opportunity to practice according to the straightforward sutta advices. > I see it a little differently. I think once we recognise the possibility of "multiple moments of kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other", then the idea of there being awareness in the midst of aksuala mindstates is suddenly not such an unlikely one. >>As regards any 'indicators' of growth of understanding, this is an >>interesting area to discuss. What are your own thoughts on this? >> > >Tep: Very intelligent and useful question ! > >Understanding without lobha and self-view is not a castle floating in the >air. If you say you can start panna that is without lobha and atta-ditthi, >then it is like telling me you can build a castle in the air (i.e. day >dreaming). Why? Because that understanding is near-Nibbana, not at >the beginning when one's mind is infested with defilements. > But if understanding cannot arise while one's mind is infested with defilements (like ours is), that would mean it can never be developed. Besides, the Satipatthana Sutta clearly refers to knowing 'mind with lust' etc as 'mind with lust' etc. >Understanding has several levels and therefore one must find out >where s/he is standing in order to successfully progress to the next >level. Fortunately for us, the Buddha gave several suttas that guided >his monks through the process of panna development. The Ven. >Buddhaghosa also wrote several chapters in the Visuddhimagga. So I >don't think I have anything else to say. > It seems to me that there must be some way of knowing whether or not the path is being correctly developed. But we need not discuss now; perhaps we can come back to this another time. Jon 53535 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:12am Subject: Sukin's last reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti - Part I sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Again there will be much snipping. ========================= Htoo: Pariyatti is not a citta. Pariyatti is not a cetasika. Pariyatti is not a ruupa. Pariyatti is not a nibbana. Go and ask K Sujin, please. 1. Would she say pariyatti is a citta? 2. Would a cetasika? 3. Would she --- --------- is a ruupa? 4. Would she --- --------- is nibbana? Sukin now: First ask Nina, now ask K. Sujin. You probably see Sukin as being little better than a robot. Whatever answers K. Sujin gives; it will simply be programmed into my databank without any question, reasoning or reflection. Moreover, Sukin in the past five years hasn't yet understood K. Sujin's meaning of the term? Or are you in fact trying to test those two? :-/ Am I overreacting? Admittedly, I use pariyatti for the written and spoken Teachings as well. But this is not the only meaning or one that I am particularly interested in talking about. Yours seem to be that it is the `accumulated knowledge'. When you consider pariyatti along with patipatti and pativedha as being three `stages' of the Sasana, what is the great significance of pariyatti if limited to just being the words on paper and uttered sound, or the memory of the ideas in mind? Isn't it more important to stress on the `understanding' associated? One can have wrong view with regard to any correct "information" gained from reading the Tipitaka, would this constitute pariyatti? If patipatti and pativedha are references to level of panna, then why not consider pariyatti too. According to your meaning, pariyatti is only a `concept', but perhaps one which has the potential of arousing `real' understanding? Don't you think it is possible that the "written Tipitaka" might exist well after the projected period of 5,000 years in which the Sasana is said to last? If so, then does part of the Sasana still exist after 5,000 or even 10,000 years if someone is curious enough to read the Tipitaka? Doesn't it require "understanding" of the concepts to have any real meaning? In any case, I am not here to quibble about this. What I am interested in then, is where would you put `intellectual understanding' in your scheme of things, particularly with relation to following the Buddha's Teachings. And how is this related to the "practice" and "development" of the Path. =============================== Htoo: If you consistently say that 'Understanding is important and it is not associated with lobha' I would deny. But if you say 'pa~n~naa' I would not. Sukin now: Are you so attached to being able to instruct? ;-) Haven't I explained my use of the term and haven't you agreed? Do you think I would be interested in discussing about other `conventional knowledge' and using the word `understanding' in that context with you on DSG or anywhere else? =============================== Htoo: BUT Who knows that particular one billionth of a blink which is just under split second? You Sukin know? Your Great teacher A Sujin knows? Anyone in DSG knows? Sukin now: Well, you have made a statement about it all the same, so can't someone else also do so? No one talks about a `moment of citta' with any claim to know it directly as it is. Practice and theory does not have to have such a direct one to one relationship. They inform each other in ways more complicated than our `linear thinking' allows for. ======================== Old Sukinder: Cittas arise and fall so fast and kusala and akusala will alternate. What do you think of my understanding above, do you agree with it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is definitely assumption. Sukin now: Are you saying that when Sukin says it, it is an assumption, but when Htoo says it, it isn't? ======================================= Metta, Sukin to continue in part ii 53536 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:13am Subject: Sukin's last reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti - Part III sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continued from part II =========================== Htoo: If a single life of this only is counted then one has to study to theoretically understand all Tipitaka. Sukin now: How did you come to such a conclusion? The importance of pariyatti is not one that is "future" projected, but one that is a consequence of understanding in the present moment. No one here aims at accumulating knowledge, if you haven't noticed; it is in fact always coming back to the same old `beginnings' topic, of nama and rupa. So much so that some have expressed their boredom with it. But I believe that the need to pariyatti and that too to the beginner level topics, is a sign of some level of panna. A level of panna that has a more or less correct estimation of one's level of understanding and not one that is leaning towards "overreaching", either to the idea of exploring more complex theories, or to thinking that one can just drop theory and `begin to practice'! But I think your view is a consequence of the idea that `pariyatti' is accumulated knowledge, in contrast to mine, which is the panna that more or less correctly understands a Dhamma concept. Yours can condition towards `accumulating more' hence the need to say, "Enough!" Mine on the other hand, is to `understand better' and therefore never says "No" to hearing more of the same thing. ;-) =============================== Htoo: I do not just look at a single life. Today stupid guy might become a smart guy tomorrow. There is a thin margin. That thinness is because of precipitation by hints on previously accumulated things (that is in many of lives). Sukin now: Yes, I agree, no need to speculate. And I must admit that I do speculate sometimes, which is actually more like to counter any speculation towards an opposite position. :-( ================================ Htoo: You just look at a single this very life and if someone has not heard Dhamma in this very life then you would assume that so and so person will be stupid because he has not learned Dhamma. But he did have many lives that you and I cannot see. Sukin now: On the contrary, I sometimes like to think that there are in fact tihetuka individuals in other religions who are perhaps hindered from appreciating Buddhism because of "strong" attachment to their present religion and/or to `doing' kusala in general. When it comes to appreciating the theory, it may be that someone like Culapanthaka Thera, may not appreciate "studying" and yet there may arise conditions for panna to arise in experience. However, this is different from those who have heard the teachings and prefer to `practice' not because of any right understanding, but precisely because they understood the Teachings *wrongly*!! They go along with a wrong interpretation of Dhamma. And again I repeat, Culapanthaka Thera did not have such a problem!! ================================ Htoo: The Buddha did send monks to the forest. See in Metta Sutta. This is against what you said. This is after enlightenment. The Buddha did send those monks to the forest. At each vassa (lent or 3 months of rainy season) monks approached The Buddha and asked for *meditation*. Then their *selves* went down to forest to do a *retreat*, where it was far far away from Palace, cities, towns and villages and *quiet*. Sukin now: What were the reasons for the monks during the Buddha's time, to go away from the towns and villages to the forest during the vassa? And weren't many monks going to the forest to practice Jhana as a routine activity already? And since the Buddha was there, wasn't it a damn good idea to ask him for a "most suitable" subject of meditation? Perhaps many of them were taking subjects that were in fact not ideal to their accumulations? ============================== Htoo: A group of monks went there. They were disturbed by unseen beings and retreated back to The Buddha. The Buddha taught them how to do metta bhavanaa and then The Buddha sent them back to the same forest. 'self' 'meditation' 'retreat' 'quiet'. Sukin now: What do you think was the level of identification with the `self'? What kind of `meditation' were they doing and with what level of panna? The `retreat' of monks at that time, to the forests during the vassa is it comparable to a layperson today going to a specially constructed building, with specifically controlled conditions, the result of proliferation of views and desire? The idea of `quiet' can only be associated with panna which sees the danger of `sense impressions'. The development of satipatthana is based on the understanding that the dhammas in the forest, retreats and at home are all equally good as objects of understanding. Without this understanding, `quiet' becomes an object of lobha and wrong view. =============================== Htoo: I will not repeat the emoticons otherwise further explanations would be asked for. Sukin now: I don't mind any emoticons, just need to see more clearly the context in which they are used. ;-) ================================== Metta, Sukin to continue in part iv 53537 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:13am Subject: Sukin's last reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti - Part II sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continued from part I ------------------------------------------------ Sukin extract of Nina's post to Phil continued: Except feeling and saññaa. Intellectual understanding is paññaa cetasika, it arises together with confidence, sati, detachment (alobha), adosa (makes one patient!), determination, manasikara, intention, and many sobhana cetasikas. These arise and fall away but they are accumulated in the next citta, on and on. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it should not be 'Intellectual understanding = pa~n~naa cetasika'. If this is true Newton might have developed 'pa~n~naa' when he drew out Laws of motion. Sukin now: I am butting in here. ;-) All conventional knowledge is based on concepts; no where down the road is there any insight into realities. Dhamma is the result of the Buddha's enlightenment. Do you still think that `intellectually understanding' in both cases is the same? Can Newton's laws EVER condition insight into Dhamma? And if only the Buddha's Teachings is capable of producing such a result, what are the initial levels of understanding which leads to this? ============================= Htoo: Is 'intention' a cetasika? I do know 'attention' is a cetasika. Accumulated is not that right word to explain this phenomena. Sukin now: Intention is cetana. And what would you use to explain this particular phenomenon? ============================ > Htoo: > I think you and DSGs are looking at a single life. I will repeat here again. Htoo: I am explaining here about why you (Sukin) and some DSGs are looking at a single life. There have been infinite lives. Even Well-Gone-One (Sugata) had had infinite lives. When Bodhisatta became Bodhisattahood He already had fulfilled 16 asancheyya to become a Sammasambuddha. Before that there had been many many infinite lives. You Sukin and me Htoo also have had many many lives in the past. Likewise almost all beings who are currently beings have had countless past lives. As you said pannaa accumulates. It is carried over from one citta to next citta. Likewise kamma is also carried over from one citta to next citta. There were many various and different stories of who attained ariyahood in many different ways. Even though someone has not known anything in Dhamma in this life he or she might have accumulated in many of previous lives. This potentiality cannot be seen by any of us or any beings except Bhagavaa, The Buddha. A single hint can precipitate to full arising of something. Sukin now: So far, you are making *my* point. ;-) But I wonder if you have forgotten that in the past we have been accused, even by you, of thinking too much in terms of `accumulations' and `past lives'. Or was that in a different context, and are we that fickle minded and undecided? I know that the latent tendency to doubt still remains, so please feel free at anytime, to point out any self- contradictory statements made by me. Yes indeed we can't know our accumulations enough to know how much panna has been accumulated since the beginning of time. So no need to speculate either way. ========================================== Htoo: Another example is Culapanthaka Thera. He did not study well in Dhamma even in theoretical understanding. He could not memorise even a single verse. Sukin now: Culapanthaka Thera did not have any intellectual understanding, but he also did not have any patipatti understanding all this while! What does it say about conditions? That it is indeed very complex. Some people don't like to hear or consider any kind of theory, yet some real life experience can arouse interest in a particular subject, after which interest to explore the theory grew. The Buddha helped create the conditions for such an interest to be aroused in Culapanthaka Thera. Only it resulted in enlightenment almost straight away. Couldn't this be the explanation? Also someone may have an extremely distracted mind and very poor retention power, yet when conditions are right, the very little that is remembered can condition some good reflection on Dhamma. I can imagine someone with worse memory and more distraction and yet have much, much more panna accumulated. And I can imagine that the conditions for the former may be more or less maintained for a long time……. =============================== Htoo: But because of a hint (change of colour of rug when he rubbed against the ground) he started to remember the old accumulated pannaa that is 'the things change' and finally attain arahatship with 4 discriminative knowledge and abhinaa or superpower. Sukin now: Exactly, and his interest in considering Dhamma grew. ================================ Htoo: Any *doing* that you and many DSGs do not like may support as a hint. Sukin now: There is something "done" all the time. *Doing* is no hindrance. What hinders is the "view" related to particular "doings", ones that which state that if you or anyone does this, then sati and panna will be developed. Views that relate practice not to a momentary reality, but to some conventional practice and/or misidentifying something as sati, which in fact is not so. Culapanthaka Thera did not have such a view, nor did the Buddha. He gave a particular subject not as a `path of practice'. He knew the Thera had considered much Dhamma in the past, perhaps particularly with relation to Anicca. Beside the fact that the Buddha knew exactly what subject is best for any particular individual, there was also the fact that all the disciples had very high respect for the Buddha and so they were more receptive and easy to instruct. What is most important to note is that Culapanthaka Thera, even though right understanding of the pariyatti level did not arise in him, there was *no wrong understanding* to hinder any potential right view from arising. =========================== Metta, Sukin to continue in part iii 53538 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15am Subject: Sukin's last reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti - Part IV sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continued from part III ================================== Htoo: You said 1st place is pariyatti. I am looking forward to hearing 2nd place. Sukin now: Do you mean patipatti? If so, I think you will not find it outside of your self. If you are indeed looking for it out there, it may be that you won't even find it in your self, since what you understand to be patipatti may not in fact be so. ============================= Sukinder: So even though you personally show great respect to the Teachings, your approval of these other people, causes me to question you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did say all are equally good. There do have good qualities. I made a blanket statement on that. I met a person who experienced Goenka retreat. I ask a few questions. I did not know much about Goenka. But according to that person answer I did not think Goenka was wrong. Sukin now: I am more interested in what the theory has to say about "causes". The `results' must match these `causes'. If indeed the description of result matches the theory but not to the description of the cause, then I believe the person must be deluded by his own projections. It is so easy to project a theory on to experiences, that's the power of `thinking' rooted in the kilesas. Even in my own evaluation of another's experience, there is danger of projecting; I must ask myself, why do I want to know? The moment I look back at my experiences with the intention to find out how much understanding and other kusala have been developed, immediately there is the danger of the vipallasas coming in to play. And if I keep at it, I will end up deluding myself. =============================== > Htoo: > There are many methods of meditation of satipatthaana. > > 1. some do at nose and do breathing alternating forceful breathing and > gentle breathing. > > 2. some teach D.O beforehand and then make sitting > > 3. some teach to put the mind at nose or lip > > 4. some teach to put the mind on the abdomen > and many others. Sukinder: So you believe that all these methods are right. Why then would some of the Mahayana and Zen practices be wrong? Does it depend only on the difference in the "theory" taught? If so, how is it that their theories lead to the same conclusion (about the need to practice meditation) as yours? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Methods I said above are satipatthaana in different approaches. I did not say anything on Mahayana or Zen or any other sects. Sukin now: OK, but does it really make any difference? The Goenka method for instance, misidentifies vedana as sensations and makes no distinction between concept and reality. We are asked to observe sensations all over the body with full awareness of "which part". This is encouraging of atta sanna. It is `thinking', and yet this thinking is never made the object of satipatthana. We are encouraged instead to *believe* a story about `self', `practice', `place' and such ideas as `noble silence', all without any understanding about paramattha dhammas. So even the so called `metta meditation' which is done everyday, serves to further encourage `self view'. In the end, *nothing* in the whole programme is about "Satipatthana". So what essentially is the difference of this from some of the Zen and Mahayana practices, I think its just different "concepts" that are observed? The common is that none of them really understand Satipatthana. You don't create a `self' just so that you can then attempt to break it down to its components. You understand the components as when and if they are presented to the sati and panna, this is how the self is seen as illusory. Otherwise those parts just becomes other manifestation of `self'. =================================== Metta, Sukin to continue in part v 53539 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15am Subject: Sukin's last reply: Pariyatti and Patipatti - Part V sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Continued from part IV =================================== Htoo: Every detail does not need to follow. What is important is to follow the Path. Sukin now: No one is "following" the details of Dhamma theory, but we do invariably follow other theories, even the wrong interpretations got from our reading and study of Dhamma. The details of Abhidhamma, if they are understood correctly, serve to correct those wrong theories and interpretations. About the Path, what according to you is this and how is it followed? ================================== Htoo: I did not say gradually or anything like that. It might arise like a flash or it may arise gradually with own experiences. Whatever way pannaa arises it is equally good for any being. Example 1; One is very blunt. But at a time there arise a flash of wisdom comes out. Example 2; One is very blunt. But with time goes by he gain knowledge through experience. Sukin now: Yes, conditions are unpredictable and it is hard to know the precise accumulations of anybody. ================================== Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. Every thing accumulates. They are not vanishable. Pannaa accumulates. Ditthi accumulates. Why bother ditthi while ditthi is only eradicated by sotapatti magga naana? Sukin now: You are obviously not referring to the wrong view associated with the idea and act of `meditation', since you don't see it as such. But I *do*. Would you for example, prayer to the Buddha and wish that your kilesas would reduce, obviously you won't and here you wouldn't encourage `not thinking' about wrong view? Well, the way I see meditation, is in some ways the same as this. Why bother about ditthi? Because according to your practice, no panna can ever arise and be developed and in fact wrong view increases. ======================================= Sukin: Can avijja lead to vijja? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccaya. Sukin now: I used the word "lead to" and not "condition". ====================================== Sukinder: *What are the precise conditions in such a practice that leads to sati and panna?* I think wrong view accumulates and it is precisely this that *blinds* the meditator, giving the illusion instead, of achieving something. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good day. Sukin now: I understand that you may not have liked the last remark. But this doesn't mean that the question just before that should not be answered. I have always wanted you to answer such a question. But never mind. I will probably make this my last post in this thread. It has become too long for me to sit down and respond to. It is up to you to respond or not, but you may not see any response from me. Metta, Sukin. -------the end------------ 53540 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 334- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[d] sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, While you're waiting for Nina's further comments, I think that some of the answers to your good questions are addressed in the extracts to come such as this one just now: --- sarah abbott wrote: > [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] > As we have seen, the proximate cause of sloth and torpor is > “unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from discontent > and laziness”. When there are sloth and torpor there is > “unsystematic thought”, that is, unwise attention (ayoniso > manasikåra) to the object which is experienced. ..... S: I know there is also a lot more description and detail in the Atthasalini in the chapter on the Hindrances. You can check the Pali on the website perhaps. I think we read that the opposite is energy for kusala. I don't think that all cetasikas have an 'exact opposite cetasika' however. I'll look at your other questions later too. Meanwhile, I'm reminded of when someone asked K.Sujin a question about wanting to know the proximate cause etc of different mental states and how to clearly differentiate thiina and middha. Her response was to ask what the point was of the question. She stressed that when there is understanding of the dhamma appearing now, we don't need to 'work out' all the details such as what exactly is thiina and what is middha because who can be aware of the distinction anyway? Who can know the proximate cause, characteristic, function and manifestation? It's like the question about vayo dhatu and K.Sujin's answer which bugs Phil. When that particular tangible object is apparent, we'll know what the characteristic is. However, if we want a 'book answer' we can look it up:-). Anyway, back to the book: thiina & middha (always arising together): 1.proximate cause of both: unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara) 2.characteristic of thiina: 'lack of driving power' characteristic of middha: 'unwieldiness' 3.function of thiina: 'to remove energy' function of middha: 'to smother' 4.manifestation of thiina: 'subsiding' manifestation of middha: 'laziness' or 'nodding and sleep' comy to Vism adds a note on the manifestation: "Because the paralysis (sa'mhanana) of consciousness comes about through stiffness, but that of matter through torpor like that of the three aggregates beginning with feeling, therefore torpor is manifested as nodding and sleep'. (Pm 493). For more fine details from the commentary to the Vism, see this message of Nina's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46879 Please also see these other messages saved on thiina and middha in U.P-- I haven't checked them, but probably some are yours. If you find further answers to your questions or other relevant details, please let us know: Sloth & Torpor (Thina & Middha) 10751, 22209, 31948, 37987, 40866, 46799, 46879 Many thanks again for the helpful questions and comments. Very useful to consider more. Metta, Sarah ======== 53541 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:34am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 207 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 207 Intro: In this section feelings are classified as gross and subtle in accordance with the plane of existence where they occur. Plane of existence is the place or world where living beings are born. There are eleven sensuous planes: four woeful planes, the human plane and six heavenly planes. Furthermore there are sixteen ruupa--brahma planes and four aruupa-brahma planes. Thus, there are thirtyone planes of existence in all. ------------ Text Vis: Then according to location, painful feelings in hell are gross, while in the animal generation they are subtle.... ------ N: There are four woeful classes of planes: the hell planes, the animal world, the plane of ghosts and the plane of demons (asuras). The painful feelings arising in the hell planes are the most intense, they are gross compared with those arising in the animal world. -------- Text Vis.: Those among the Paranimmitavasavatti Deities are subtle only. -------- N: Painful feeling arises in the woeful planes, in the human plane and in the four heavenly planes, but when they are compared with each other the painful feeling arising in a higher plane is less gross than that in the lower planes. The plane of the Paranimmitavasavatti Deities, the heaven of devas who rule over others¹ creations, is the highest heavenly plane. Here the painful feeling is subtle only. There are less conditions for aversion which is always accompanied by unhappy feeling. The ruupa-brahma planes and aruupa-brahma planes do not have any conditions for the arising of dosa-muulacitta with unhappy feeling. -------- Text Vis.: And the pleasant should be construed throughout like the painful where suitable. ----- N: The Pali text has: also the pleasant (sukhaapi). The Tiika comments that the word Œalso¹ implies that also indifferent feeling is included. Indifferent feeling arises in different combinations in all planes of existence, except in the ruupa-brahma plane where naama does not arise, only ruupa: the asaññaa-satta plane (non perception). As to happy feeling, this may arise with lobha-muula-cittas and with sobhana cittas. In all planes where there is naama lobha-muulacittas arise and these can be accompanied by happy feeling. Even in a hell plane kusala citta may arise, and this can be accompanied by happy feeling, although there are not many conditions for happy feeling. Happy feeling is more subtle as it arises in higher planes of existence. The Tiika adds to the expression where suitable (yathaanuruupa.m), that this means suitable to whichever feeling wherever obtained. -------- Conclusion: Kusala kamma and akusala kamma that produce rebirth-consciousness in different planes of existence have many degrees. Kamma causes a being to be reborn in pleasant or unpleasant surroundings. In the unhappy planes of existence there are many conditions for painful feeling and unhappy feeling. As we see, there are many degrees of painful feeling, and these are less gross, more subtle for those reborn in higher planes of existence. It is kusala kamma that caused us to be born in the human plane, and in this life there are occasions for happy feeling and unhappy feeling. Whatever pleasant or unpleasant object is experienced through the senses is vipaaka, conditioned by kamma. Our reactions with kusala citta or akusala citta, accompanied by different types of feeling, are conditioned by our accumulated inclinations. ******* Nina. 53542 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: The purpose of the Vinaya - Step-by-step to Arahantship buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Dear Jonathan (Nina and Sarah, Hatoo)- > > > >I was pleasantly surprised to see your unusually long post #53364. > >Thank you very much, Friend, for the time and effort you put into > >reviewing the messages I wrote earlier and writing up this unsual > >message. I have a feeling that we are going to rectify several > >troublesome issues this time ! > > > > Well my thanks to you for pursuing these important issues. Your > messages are always full of meat and quite a challenge to respond to > ;-)). Despite our present differences, I think that with patience and > perseverance we will one day come to an agreed view on things. I agree with Tep that you seem a changed person since you came back from India this last time. Your posts don't give me the usual "creeps" they used to give me. I would be very interested to know what happened. Metta, James 53543 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] sati. nilovg Hi Larry, op 15-12-2005 02:26 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "Sati cannot be directed towards any object, and it is basic to > understand this, otherwise we take for sati what is not sati. Sati can > be aware of whatever nama or rupa appears, and it is really > unpredictable what its object is." ------ L: I agree, sati just happens, but it happens more often if we notice what > is happening. Also, I don't see any problem with thinking about dhammas. > I think that's good. ------ N: It is good when kusala citta thinks about dhammas with the purpose to have more understanding. When akusala citta with attachment thinks about dhammas in order to have more sati, it is counteractive. When one thinks and considers the Dhamma there is kusala citta and this is accompanied by sati which is non-forgetful of considering the dhamma. It is not yet direct awareness, but nobody can cause its arising. If we keep in mind that right understanding of realities is what matters, we shall not think of ways to have more sati. Paññaa and sati develop because of their own conditions, it is of no use to worry about ways to hasten their development. Thus, when we listen to the dhamma, discuss it, consider it, we can have confidence that these are the right conditions for paññaa to develop further. We can have confidence in paññaa that fulfills its own function. If we think of a self who has to do it all, we may not believe that paññaa does its own task. Each kusala citta is accompanied by alobha, non-attachment or detachment. Understanding has to be developed with detachment from the beginning and the goal is detachment. Detachment from the idea of self. It is of no use to think: how and when shall I attain the stages of insight or enlightenment. When the time is ripe it will happen for sure. Nina. 53544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana ñaa.na, to Joop. nilovg Hi Joop, op 14-12-2005 11:09 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > I think I have the insight > namarupapariccheda-nana; but that is only the first of a list of > insights (nana's) so it's no reason to use it as the core-topic of my > study and meditation. ------- N: I do not know whether people in general know that noticing: this is nama, this is rupa is not the same as the first stage of tender insight which distinguishes them in a mind-door process and realizes what the mind-door is. Kh Sujin has explained this to us many times, but I find it a difficult subject. I recently wrote about this, but I am just repeating what I learnt, without really penetrating the truth of nama and rupa, without really knowing what the mind-door is. Just now it seems that we can see and hear at the same time, but actually there are different processes, and there are mind-door processes in between. We know this in theory, but it is another matter to directly understand this. I quote what I wrote before: