54200 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 5:36pm Subject: Vism.XIV,213 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 213. 'Order of teaching' is appropriate however; for there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen into assuming a self among the five aggregates owing to failure to analyze them; and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from the assumption by getting them to see how the [seeming] compactness of mass [in the five aggregates] is resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, he first, for the purpose of their easy apprehension, taught the materiality aggregate, which is gross, being the objective field of the eye, etc.; and after that, feeling, which feels matter as desirable and undesirable; then perception, which apprehends the aspects of feeling's objective field, since 'What one feels, that one perceives' (M.i,293); then formations, which form volitionally through the means of perception; and lastly, consciousness, which these things beginning with feeling have as their support, and which dominates them.78 ------------------------- Note 78. 'Consciousness dominates because of the words "Dhammas have mind as their forerunner" (Dh.1), "Dhammas (states) that have parallel turn-over with consciousness" (Dhs.1522), and "The king, lord of the six doors" (?)' (Pm.503). ******************** 213. abhedena hi pa~ncasu khandhesu attagaahapatita.m veneyyajana.m samuuhaghanavinibbhogadassanena attagaahato mocetukaamo bhagavaa hitakaamo tassa tassa janassa sukhagaha.nattha.m cakkhuaadiinampi visayabhuuta.m o.laarika.m pa.thama.m ruupakkhandha.m desesi. tato it.thaani.t.tharuupasa.mvedanika.m vedana.m. ``ya.m vedayati, ta.m sa~njaanaatii´´ti eva.m vedanaavisayassa aakaaragaahika.m sa~n~na.m. sa~n~naavasena abhisa"nkhaarake sa"nkhaare. tesa.m vedanaadiina.m nissaya.m adhipatibhuuta~nca nesa.m vi~n~naa.nanti eva.m taava kamato vinicchayanayo vi~n~naatabbo. 54201 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 7:44pm Subject: Re: Hello rjkjp1 Dear Scott, Nice to see you here. Dsg has several members who are interested in Abhidhamma and Pali. This link goes to a useful posts file where some of the better posts from the group are stored. Robertk http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MJe4Q9My2D1roIviqOm9LlxbmF9wO9YBIHOuB0q1 zqiC8JLzCQK48VUoWNGC_O1EDVY_Yf4f- hy2Miq5FNj2bcpjOwU/Useful_Posts_November.htm In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Group Members, > > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly > introduce myself. I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition. I've found > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. It was suggested > to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on > e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more > focused learning regarding these interests. > > Thanks for your consideration. I'll shadow for awhile before actually > wading in, if you don't mind. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 54202 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 8:34pm Subject: Re: Hello christine_fo... Hello Scott, RobK, all Rob - I created a tiny url for the link you gave to Scott: http://tinyurl.com/bjmb4 Welcome to dsg, Scott - hope some of the threads are helpful - and that those members with knowledge and interest in the third basket of the Tipitaka will surface after their end of year holidays and add to any discussions. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Scott, > Nice to see you here. Dsg has several members who are interested in > Abhidhamma and Pali. > This link goes to a useful posts file where some of the better posts > from the group are stored. > Robertk > http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MJe4Q9My2D1roIviqOm9LlxbmF9wO9YBIHOuB0q1 > zqiC8JLzCQK48VUoWNGC_O1EDVY_Yf4f- > hy2Miq5FNj2bcpjOwU/Useful_Posts_November.htm > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" > wrote: > > > > Dear Group Members, > > > > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly > > introduce myself. I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over > the > > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition. I've > found > > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, > the > > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. It was > suggested > > to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on > > e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more > > focused learning regarding these interests. > > > > Thanks for your consideration. I'll shadow for awhile before > actually > > wading in, if you don't mind. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Scott. > > > 54203 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 10:23pm Subject: Fine Fading Away ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Wearing away the inner Roots of Evil ceases all Suffering! There are, friends, these three kinds of fading away, that are directly observable, obviously evident, inviting each & every one to come and see for themselves, practical, to be personally experienced by any clever one! What three? Someone here is & greedy & lustful, and caused by this very greedy lust, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, & to harm both himself & others... When this greedy lust later is discarded, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of desire, is directly observable, immediate, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, practical, freeing, releasing, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! Furthermore: Someone here is full of hate & aggression, and caused by this rage of anger, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others... When this angry hatred later is eliminated, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of ill-will, is directly observable, apparent, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, smoothing, soft, sweet, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! Finally: Someone here is deluded, dazed & confused, and caused by this very ignorance, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others... When this lack of understanding later is cleared up, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of obscuration, is easily observable, actual, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, all advantageous, awakening, opening, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! These, friends, are the three kinds of fading away, that are directly observable, immediately accessible, inviting each & every one to come and see for themselves, practical, applicable, reachable, personally experienceable by any intelligence... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [330-40] Section 42: On The 6 Senses. Rasiya: 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54204 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 sarahprocter... Hi Alan McA & all (Rob M*) --- Alan McAllister wrote: > Is there an Abhidhamma on-line course available? ..... S: How about treating DSG as an ‘on-line course’ in Abhidhamma? I’d be happy to give you weekly sign-posts and homework assignments! Ok, let’s start and see how we go: Session 1 1. Read the following from Nina’s book ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ again and again and ask questions to the group or raise any points on it for further discussion/reflection: http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm >THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. The 'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. XVIII, 25): "For this has been said: . 'As with the assembly of parts The word "chariot" is countenanced, So, When the khandhas are present, 'A being' is said in common usage' " (Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else but nama and rupa. See Ch.2.) "…So in many hundred suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles... are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each part is examined, there is no chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision."< ***** 2. Go to this link (files section of DSG) and scroll down to Useful Posts and then down to ‘Abhidhamma – beginners’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Read as many posts as seems helpful to you in this section and again consider, ask questions or add your comments. (*Some of them are written by Rob M who is also from Ontario, Canada, like you). If this approach is of any use to you, then either I or someone else will be happy to give you (anyone else) a Session 2 plus assignments next week – say next Monday! I hope others will reply or respond to any questions or comments you give in the meantime. I look forward to any feedback. Metta, Sarah ======= 54205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello nilovg Hello Scott, welcome here. If you are interested in abhidhamma, on Rob K's web you can find my Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an intro. I think questions by beginners are always very useful to everybody, since all of us are beginners. I would like to encourage you to pose any question that comes up. Best wishes, Nina. op 01-01-2006 15:36 schreef scottduncan2 op scduncan@...: I've found > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. 54206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 nilovg Hi Sarah, Alan McA, Scott, Happy to give any sessions, assignments, Nina. op 02-01-2006 10:10 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I or someone else will > be happy to give you (anyone else) a Session 2 plus assignments 54207 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello sarahprocter... Hi Scott, other newbies here,[Connie & Dan*] --- scottduncan2 wrote: > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly > introduce myself. I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition. I've found > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. .... S: This already sounds like someone who has been considering quite a lot. I'm sure you'll be able to help us all in due course too. Thanks to Rob and Chris for pointing you to the Useful Posts section (U.P. for short). If you have any trouble with the links, try this one I just gave: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Scroll down to U.P. I just mentioned 'Abhidhamma- beginners' from it. There's also a section called 'New to the List & new to Dhamma', but this isn't you. You'll be able to find the topics you wish to check in due course. If you find anything especially useful or controversial, please repost it here for others to comment on or disagree with:-). May I ask where you live? Anyone snowed in for the long weekend could spend their time in U.P.:-). I'd also like to give you and any other newbies here, this link: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ This is where the back-up of the DSG archives are kept as a security measure and where the entire archives can be downloaded for easy scrolling (without a need for an internet connection)or for searching. [I'd like to give a public thanks to Connie for all her hard work behind the scenes in this department. *Dan, yes Kom was our pillar of strength for many years and like you, we hope to see him back. No word since he ordained. Connie has taken over in this regard. Connie, also appreciating your good discussions with James and Joop and others]. Scott, in due course, you may also like to listen to some of the audio discussions. Some of us have been discussing the first one you come to (July 2001 with Erik, a DSG member, and A.Sujin). ..... >It was suggested > to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on > e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more > focused learning regarding these interests. > > Thanks for your consideration. I'll shadow for awhile before actually > wading in, if you don't mind. .... S: If it's difficult to understand what the current threads are on about mid-stream, please consider starting your own anytime. For anyone who prefers to see their in-box DSG mail neatly stacked in threads (and with the best search function of course), consider using a Gmail account to receive the mail. (I have one which I just use -in addition to my yahoo account- just for finding posts and searching.) It needs an invite which is simple - just ask Jon or I or Ven Samahita for one. Scott, I've rambled into other areas for other people in this post too. Hope you find it worthwhile here and look forward to more discussion later in this new year. Metta, Sarah ======== 54208 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 4:47am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 robmoult Hi Alan McA, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > (*Some of them are written by Rob M who is also from Ontario, Canada, like > you). I would love to help you progress with your study of the Abhidhamma. Though I was born and raised in Toronto and envions (in what part of Ontario do you live?), I now live in Malaysia and teach an Abhidhamma course each Sunday. Metta, Rob M :-) 54209 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 5:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Scott, other newbies here,[Connie & Dan*] > > --- scottduncan2 wrote: > > > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly > > introduce myself. I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the > > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition. I've found > > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the > > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. > .... > S: This already sounds like someone who has been considering quite a lot. > I'm sure you'll be able to help us all in due course too. <...> Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind welcome. I'm from Edmonton, Alberta (Canada, eh.) Strangely I am not snowed in. No snow yet. Weird. Being virtually a computer-illiterate I'm not sure what G-mail is but it sounds good. Maybe when I know what it is I'll want it. I'll check into the links you have taken the time to provide. Looking forward to learning . . . Sincerely, Scott. 54210 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hello Scott, > welcome here. If you are interested in abhidhamma, on Rob K's web you can > find my Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an intro. > > > I think questions by beginners are always very useful to everybody, since > all of us are beginners. I would like to encourage you to pose any question > that comes up. > Best wishes, > Nina. > op 01-01-2006 15:36 schreef scottduncan2 op scduncan@s...: > I've found > > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the > > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. > Dear Nina, Thank you for your welcome. I have been reading your Abhidhamma in Daily Life. There is a lot in it, well and densely packed, clearly written. Very beautiful stuff if I may put it so. I'll come up with a question to post in the near future. Sincerely, Scott. 54211 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 5:44am Subject: Sa~n~na scottduncan2 Dear Group, The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. I understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta, and functions as "memory." I read how this latter function is analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the carpenter's marking of wood analogy. I've come across the Pali term "nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process. What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist. Do they remain a function of the object, that is inherent to each new moment of awareness of a given object? I've come across the Pali term (forgive my spelling) "attita-gaha.na," which seems to label a phase of "grasping to the past." I would appreciate a chance to learn how properly to see these things. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 54212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na nilovg Hi Scott, op 02-01-2006 14:44 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. I > understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta, > and functions as "memory." I read how this latter function is > analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then > re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the > carpenter's marking of wood analogy. > > What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and > comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist. -------- N: Citta does not arise out of nothing, it arises because of many different conditions. The previous citta that has fallen away conditions the arising of the following citta by contiguity-condiiton. This is only one of the many conditions. Life is an uninterrupted series of cittas succeeding one another, from birth to death. Saññaa is a cetasika, mental factor, accompanying each citta and it arises and falls away with citta. 'You' can remember what you just read here before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from one citta to the next one. When you recognize something or someone it is not you who does so, but saññaa. -------- Scott: I've come across the Pali term > "nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process. ------ N: A specific meaning in the Commentary: a note by Ven. Bodhi: MA interprets the phrase 'maker of signs' (nimitta-kara.na) to mean that lust, hate, and delusion brand a person a worldling or a noble one, as lustful, hating, or deluded.... This in contrast to the signless, nibbaana. But here we have gone away from our subject. Here are just a few basic points. There is much more to say about saññaa, it is one of the khandhas, a separate khandha. In the Visuddhimagga series soon coming up why it is a separate khandha. ***** Nina. 54213 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 1/2/06 9:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > 'You' can remember what you just read here > before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize > letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. > This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from > one citta to the next one. > ==================== Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, as I understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object of that citta as its object. According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas are involved with the "carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? It would seem that there have been infinitely many experiences in "one's" history. Exactly what cetasikas are involved that constitute this infinite (or at least huge) storage mechanism? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54214 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 9:48am Subject: Re: Sa~n~na buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Nina, Scott) - I appreciate Scott's questions about sanna and the answers given by Nina. The Abhidhamma approach is an excellent starting point, but it probably stops short of giving a complete and satisfying answer. > > In a message dated 1/2/06 9:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > > 'You' can remember what you just read here > > before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. > > This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from one citta to the next one. > > > ==================== > Howard: Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, as I understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object of that citta as its object. According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas are involved with the "carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? It would seem that there have been infinitely many experiences in "one's" history. Exactly what cetasikas are involved that constitute this infinite (or at least huge) storage mechanism? > Tep: You have raised excellent points. I hope Nina's answer is not going to be "Howard, it is accumulation that carries on all experiences to a citta.". Warm regards, Tep ========== 54215 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Scott) - In a message dated 1/2/06 12:51:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, Howard (Nina, Scott) - > > I appreciate Scott's questions about sanna and the answers given by > Nina. The Abhidhamma approach is an excellent starting point, but it > probably stops short of giving a complete and satisfying answer. > > > >In a message dated 1/2/06 9:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >vangorko@x... writes: > > > >>'You' can remember what you just read here > >>before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can > read, recognize letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. > >>This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' > from one citta to the next one. > >> > >==================== > >Howard: Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, > as I understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object > of that citta as its object. According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas > are involved with the "carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? It would > > seem that there have been infinitely many experiences in "one's" > history. Exactly what cetasikas are involved that constitute this infinite > (or at least huge) storage mechanism? > > > > Tep: You have raised excellent points. I hope Nina's answer is not > going to be "Howard, it is accumulation that carries on all experiences > to a citta.". > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > ============================ Well, perhaps there are details in the Abhidhamma Pitaka [There ARE seven books!] or in the commentaries that flesh this matter out and provide gratifying and persuasive detail. But if not, that's fine. I don't consider it encumbant upon Nina to scurry about and come up with an answer that satisfies me. With all the questions that folks can have, research into them by Nina could take her an entire kappa! ;-) With regard to my specific question, it may be that the details are not there to be found. Secondly, as vast as Nina's knowledge of Abhidhamma is, it is unreasonable for me to consider it complete. Thirdly, a perfectly acceptable reply to any question is simply "I don't know" or "I'm not sure," if that's the case. However, I do find this matter unclear, and if there *is* available an answer to my question that gives me a deeper understanding of abhidhammic analysis, of course that will be great - but if not, that's not a problem. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54216 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 10:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for your intelligent (but straightforward) reply -- as usual. >Howard: >However, I do find this matter unclear, and if there *is* available an >answer to my question that gives me a deeper understanding of >abhidhammic analysis, of course that will be great - but if not, >that's not a problem. > Right. And I look forward to read all abhidhammic analyses from the knowledgeable DSG members. Regards, Tep ====== 54217 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 10:53am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course nichiconn Hi, Sarah, Alan McA, All, Just to add to the homework/extra credit: www.dhammalecturevideo.org "... a lecture series titled "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by Sayadaw Nandamalavivamsa, rector of Sitagu Buddhist Academy (SIBA), in Sagaing Myanmar. The Sayadaw gave these lectures when a German study tour came to SIBA to take a one month course in Abhidamma in 2003." peace, connie 54218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, op 02-01-2006 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, as I > understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object of that citta > as its object. ------- N: Citta arises together with several cetasikas, and among those is always saññaa. Saññaa is a socalled Universal, which accompanies each citta. The other universals are: contact, feeling. volition, concentration and vitality. Depending on the type of citta, there are other cetasikas in addition to the universals, such as beautiful cetasikas, or akusala cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas that arise together experience the same object. Citta clearly knows the object and the cetasikas assist the citta each in their own way, to experience that object. ------ H: According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas are involved with the > "carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? ----- N: The cetasikas do not carry on the experiences to the citta. They all fall away immediately with the citta, it is all in a flash. But since the citta (with the cetasikas) that has fallen away conditions the arising of the following one, all experiences, and also good and bad qualities continue on to the next citta as accumulated conditions. They are always on the move. ------- H: It would seem that there have > been > infinitely many experiences in "one's" history. Exactly what cetasikas are > involved that constitute this infinite (or at least huge) storage mechanism? ------- N: It is not a storage, that smells of something lasting. A store room is limited, but what is mental is unlimited. Kamma of aeons ago that has been accumulated can suddenly condition the next rebirth, or pain of an accident that occurs now. We cannot say, what cetasika is active in causing accumulation. It is not specifically saññaa. It just happens in this way : one citta arises with cetasikas, for example with sobhana cetasikas such as generosity, and then they fall away. But generosity is accumulated and forms the condition for generosity again later on. We can notice this in our life. A child is taught to give and this conditions generosity again. It does not mean that he, as an adult, remembers that his parents said: give, give, it is good to give. It just happens that generosity has been accumulated and can arise again. This teaches us that there is no "I" who can do anything, there are only elements that occur, arising and falling away. Good friendship, evil friendship, these are also factors that cause the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta. We see that several types of conditions can operate at the same time so that kusala citta or akusala citta has the opportunity to arise. Nina. 54219 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thank you for the following explanation, Nina. It is reassuring in its nonsubstantialist tone. Where I find confusion remaining is with regard to the accumulation terminology. It suggests storage. But as I see it, nothing is carried on, and all there is is conditionality: Because of what occurred in the past, certain conditions repeatedly arise now, and we *say* that this is due to accumulations or acquired tendencies, but the facts, it seems to me, are simply "That having been, this is." (The content of your post follows below.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/2/06 2:40:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 02-01-2006 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, as I > >understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object of that > citta > >as its object. > ------- > N: Citta arises together with several cetasikas, and among those is always > saññaa. Saññaa is a socalled Universal, which accompanies each citta. The > other universals are: contact, feeling. volition, concentration and > vitality. Depending on the type of citta, there are other cetasikas in > addition to the universals, such as beautiful cetasikas, or akusala > cetasikas. > Citta and cetasikas that arise together experience the same object. Citta > clearly knows the object and the cetasikas assist the citta each in their > own way, to experience that object. > ------ > H: According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas are involved with the > >"carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? > ----- > N: The cetasikas do not carry on the experiences to the citta. They all fall > away immediately with the citta, it is all in a flash. But since the citta > (with the cetasikas) that has fallen away conditions the arising of the > following one, all experiences, and also good and bad qualities continue on > to the next citta as accumulated conditions. They are always on the move. > ------- > H: It would seem that there have > >been > >infinitely many experiences in "one's" history. Exactly what cetasikas are > >involved that constitute this infinite (or at least huge) storage > mechanism? > ------- > N: It is not a storage, that smells of something lasting. A store room is > limited, but what is mental is unlimited. Kamma of aeons ago that has been > accumulated can suddenly condition the next rebirth, or pain of an accident > that occurs now. > We cannot say, what cetasika is active in causing accumulation. It is not > specifically saññaa. > It just happens in this way : one citta arises with cetasikas, for example > with sobhana cetasikas such as generosity, and then they fall away. But > generosity is accumulated and forms the condition for generosity again later > on. We can notice this in our life. A child is taught to give and this > conditions generosity again. It does not mean that he, as an adult, > remembers that his parents said: give, give, it is good to give. It just > happens that generosity has been accumulated and can arise again. > This teaches us that there is no "I" who can do anything, there are only > elements that occur, arising and falling away. > Good friendship, evil friendship, these are also factors that cause the > arising of kusala citta or akusala citta. We see that several types of > conditions can operate at the same time so that kusala citta or akusala > citta has the opportunity to arise. > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54220 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:12pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Excellent comments, Matheesha. I very much appreciate your efforts in considering and discussing Dhamma--great contributions to the group. > D:> KS certainly has an unusual approach to teaching and discussing > > Dhamma. > > M: Why do you think it is unusual? It is unusual in the extent to which she makes the distinction between concept and reality. She does this because the illusion of "Self" is purely conceptual so when reality is known, that illusion of Self is shattered. That is the core of Buddha's teaching. >> D:is there a distinction between conceptual meditation and real meditation? > > M: Yes, something which is not clearly obvious if study is based > only on the abhidhamma. That is the development of faculties. No > matter how much you understand conceptually what meditation is, > there will be no development of things like samatha and vipassana. > In fact all the dhamma papanca would be deterimental to any one- > pointedness of mind which might be present. Agreed. Another way to think about the question would be that conceptual meditation is what is often referred to as "formal meditation" in dsg, viz., sit quietly in a corner, eyes closed, directing the attention to a particular object. Real meditation would then be the actual moments when there is development (bhavana) of satipatthana or insight. The connection between the two is not as obvious as it may appear on the surface ... >> Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? > A monk goes forth because of the following reason: > > " The household life is close and dusty, the going forth is free as > the sky. It is not easy living the household life, to live the fully- > perfect holy life, purified and polished like a conch ?shell. > > M: ..and being in a calm envioronment has specific implications for > training: > > Overcoming of the five hindrances > "As soon, brahman, as he is possessed of mindfulness and clear > consciousness, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come > you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a > tree, on a mountain slope, in a glen, a hill cave, a cemetery, a > woodland grove, in the open, or on a heap of straw.' > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm > > M: In the above the Buddha is clearly asking the monk to go to the > forest etc. So if anyone tells me that it is useless, or gives it a > different interpretation, I will not accept it. I agree. The Buddha is clearly telling him to go to the forest etc.-- as soon as he possesses mindfulness and full awareness (BB). Tell me, is this different from telling him to go to the forest in order to develop mindfulness and full awareness? And why what is his job in the forest? Cultivation of jhana. We are in agreement that Buddha sometimes exhorted his disciples with methods, techniques, instructions for cultivation of samatha. But what of satipatthana? "Come, bhikkhu, be possessed of mindfulness and full awareness (satisampajañña). Act in full awareness when going forward and returning..."(MN 107:7 [BB]). So, before "go to a secluded place...", there is "be possessed of satisampajañña." Without the satisampajañña, there is no path. Sure, there may be jhana (which, in the time of Buddha, had already long been practiced outside the dispensation) and there may be sila (which is widely practiced by a good chunk of the people in most cultures) but no walking the path. What the KS and DSGers emphasize so strongly is that whatever the practice is satisampajañña/satipatthana are essential to development of wisdom (bhavana), and that, regardless of the particular object, satipatthana implies clear understanding of the distinction between percept and concept at the present moment (e.g., see MN 1). Without that clear understanding, it is very easy to confuse not only paramattha and concept, but also "meditation" with bhavana, fruits of concentration for fruits of insight, the pleasure of attachment for sobhana cetasikas, etc. The concentration that is developed in the course of formal sitting can (and frequently does) increase the propensity for confusion and delusion. For example, it is easy to confuse preparatory concentration with jhana, preparatory concentration with access concentration, preparatory concentration with insight, calm with insight, access concentration with insight, trivial insight with profound insight, jhana with profound insight (e.g. compare the descriptions of jhana-entry with stream-entry in Abhidhammattha sangaha), fruits of concentration with fruits of insight, etc. It is so easy to underestimate the power of special experiences to confuse and lead astray; it can take years or decades to even get an inkling that a practice is generating more mana and lobha than panya. That being said, the KS-respecting DSGers you like to rail against do not utter any anti-meditation words but strongly emphasize the importance of understanding reality as it is now and in describing reality. The idea is not that it is wrong to sit quietly in the corner, legs crossed, etc. In fact, such activity may bring many benefits, but as the satipatthana sutta so brilliantly illustrates, it is not the particular activity that one is engaged in that constitutes 'bhavana' but the inclination of the mind. > D:Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > > > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." > > > > > > 'Then venerable Va?sa said this stanza to venerable ?nda: > > > My mind is burning with sensual greed, > > > I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify > my > > > mind? > > > (?nda:) > > > Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception > > > Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed > > > Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a self. > > > Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again. > > > Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point. > > > Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with > > > disgust > > > Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to > measure. > > > Thus overcoming measuring live appeased. I'm uncomfortable commenting on this passage because I don't know where it lives in Tipitaka and can't cross-check the Pali or other translations or read the larger context. > >D: Exhortation, yes, clearly. > > Method? Purification ritual? No. > > M: Definition of exhortation: 'a communication intended to urge or > persuade the recipients to take some action' > > wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn > > M: Yes, the Buddha is asking this man to take some action - it is > part of a method (see the above link for the ganakamoggallana > sutta). That method is called the Gradual training. > > "It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual > doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm > > Note: 'Training', 'doing', 'practice'. This is far from conceptual. > If anyone doesnt believe this (or believe it is possible), then I'm > afraid they are stuck deep down in an wrong view. Not even the > commentaries would agree with such a thing. It is a corruption. The conventional notions of training, doing, practice are conceptual, i.e., there is the idea that there is a person who thinks, "I will do such and such activities in order to acheive such and such result," that there is a person who does such and such activities in order to acheive such and such results. That is purely conceptual and it is "ritual". Reprinted below is an excerpt from an old post on silabbataparamasa that I wrote to Erik a few years ago: ---- I looked up ritual in the dictionary, and I'm pretty much going by the dictionary definition. That definition uses "rite" quite a bit, so let's start there: rite -- 1. a formal ceremony or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use. 2. a particular form of system of religious or ceremonial practice. [3 and 4 are specific to Christianity.] 5. any customary observance or practice. I suppose we also need to address the bugaboo word "religion" here. Clearly, it doesn't necessarily refer to something about "churches" or a blind belief in a traffic-directing creator God, although some people may well define their religion by these things. religion -- 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,... 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. [3, 4, 5 are not used in the above context and sense] 6. something a person believes in and follows devotedly. ritual -- 1a. an established procedure for a religious or other rite. b. a system of such rites. 2. observance of set forms in public worship. 3. a book of rites or ceremonies. 4. prescribed, established or ceremonial acts or features collectively. 5. any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner. These are generic, all-purpose definitions, and I need to be clear about how I understand the term "ritual." Let's go with: ritual -- a prescribed practice or procedure that a person believes in and follows devotedly, esp. one that pertains to a fundamental set of beliefs concerning the cause and nature of the universe. A few questions: 1. Did Buddha teach ritual as the means or vehicle to liberation? I don't think so. In fact, he taught that adherence to ritual was a fetter to broken. Thus, it would seem strange to read Satipatthana sutta as a list of prescribed practices [rituals]. "...a monk having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty hut, sits down cross-legged, his body erect and his mindfulness alert. Just mindful he breates in..." -- this is a description, Erik. A prescription would read more like this: "...to establish mindfulness, you should go to the forest, sit down cross-legged, and practice noting the breath." There is a world of difference, and it is not at all subtle. An aside... My meditation teachers have been firm believers in practice, practice, practice and suspicious of book reading. Despite the admonitions about books, I snuck a peek at the Satipatthana sutta after one of my first intensive meditation retreats (must have been 1988 or 1989). I creeped into the library and found Nyanaponika's "Heart of Buddhist Meditation" and opened up to chapter 3 -- The Four Objects of Mindfulness. Nyanaponika discusses the Satipatthana sutta as 'instructions for practice.' I thought, "Cool! A little more detail about what my teachers have been talking about! A little more elaborate than the austere explanations my teachers gave, but basically the same..." Then I read the sutta itself: "...a monk having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty hut, sits down cross-legged, his body erect and his mindfulness alert. Just mindful he breates in..." At first I was incredulous that anyone could read this as instructions because the clear sense was descriptive without any imperative sense of "do this." "Besides," I thought, "It looks like his mindfulness was already alert when he sat down." For a moment there was the thought that Nyanaponika and my teachers had to be misinterpreting the sutta because it didn't look at all like an instruction manual to me. But my faith in my teachers was stronger than my intuition that there was a mismatch between the text and their interpretation, so I accepted their interpretation ("They must have special insight into Pali and ancient Indian culture to be able to see that this sutta is an instruction manual") and ignored the sutta for many years because it was so difficult to square its plain meaning with the instruction manual interpretation. Besides, I had no idea where to go next or what to do if it wasn't an instruction manual. After being back at practice, practice, practice for a few more years, a teacher recommended studying the Satipatthana sutta as an instruction manual. I gave it a shot, but it was quite daunting. I found it hard enough to master the one or two techniques I'd been working so hard on for so many years. "Now I'm confronted with dozens more practices to do! Ai-yo! It can't be done!" 2. Are some rituals helpful in the development of panya, while others are not? I think rituals can be very beneficial in a number of ways, and that that is why they are so popular at the wats, churches, synagogues, mosques, meditation centers, etc. There is nothing wrong with mantra chanting, yoga, homage to "Buddha rupas", noting the rise and fall of the abdomen while sitting quietly, walking at a snail's pace, etc. Some of these practices were popular long before Buddha, some appeared at the same time, and some appeared only recently. They all yield benefits. Did Buddha offer nothing more than a rehashing of the ancient and ever-popular theme of perform-this-ritual-perfectly-and- you-will-be-saved? The Satipatthana sutta is not just a peculiar variant on that theme. It is a remarkable discourse on how the path of liberation is via satipatthana, not ritual. Satipatthana can arise in the most unusual, unritual-like moments -- like walking, eating, speaking, obeying the calls of nature, passing through a charnel ground, etc. Instead of being an exhortation to turn our every action into a ritual, Dhamma liberates us from the view that ritual is the means to salvation. Ritual can be quite edifying, but we must be on guard against false estimation of its function and purpose. ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 ------- > D:>> How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an > instruction > > book any different from a rite or ritual? > > M: Practicing the satipattana is the path to nibbana. > > The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the > purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, > for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the > right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, > the four frames of reference. Which four? > > Note: 'method', it is a path to be tread upon. This is an important passage to consider carefully. First, "method" is a misleading (even nonsensical) translation of ~naayassa in this constuction. Better would be "truth" (PTS dict.) or "true way" (BB's MLDB (MN 10:2)). After all, what would it mean to say that satipatthana is the means for attaining the method? Do note that the Pali does not at all support the reading "this sutta outlines the method for attaining satipatthana (establishment of mindfulness)" or "this sutta describes how to 'do' the method of satipatthana." Instead, satipatthana is the path to attain truth. The sutta is mostly a description of that path; it is not a set of instructions outlining a method, not a prescription of activities to undertake. The difference between prescription and description is absolutely critical, and the language of the sutta is clearly descriptive rather than prescriptive. For example, in MN 10:3 we read: "What are the four [foundations of mindfulness]? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world." This is a description of a bhikkhu who is established in mindfulness. If the sutta were intended as an instruction book, it would read more along the lines of: "To establish mindfulness, do these things..." The difference seems like subtle hairsplitting, but it isn't. An analogy: The case of joyous laughter Description: "A bhikkhu abiding in joyous laughter tilts his head back and with a twinkle in his eye turns up the corners of his mouth and lets forth a joyous sound." Prescription (or instruction): "To laugh joyously, tilt your head back, produce a twinkle in your eye, turn up the corners of your mouth and let forth a joyous sound." Satipatthana is the state of mind of one ardently contemplating the body as a body, feelings as feelings, mind as mind, or mind-objects as mind-objects. It is a fully-aware state of mind in which covetousness and grief for the world does not arise. With sati having thus been established, the bhikkhu advances toward the Truth, toward the realisation of Nibbana; and therefore satipatthana is referred to as a path. The path is direct and straight. But it is also narrow. Very narrow. Very difficult to stay on. It may seem strange to think in terms of the satipatthana sutta in terms of descriptions instead of instructions, but the most straightforward reading of the words is as description. Some might object that "if the sutta is just description, it doesn't give us anything concrete to DO, so it MUST be prescriptive. What good would a description be?!" The short answer is that it teaches us how to distinguish between what is and what is not the path. > A rite or ritual implies an action that is worthless/unproductive in > the eyes of a non-believer. The Buddha says it is the one way to > nibbana. I think that is very productive. > > This is the path from the conceptual to the absolute. It is very > productive if practiced properly. If instructed properly. If the > conditions are brought about properly for it to develop. Not > otherwise. It is unfortunate that many people dont have these > conditions. > > It is the way to direct experiencing. > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone seven years...six..five.. Or seven days of proper practice! It is quite easy to read these bhavana suttas as instruction manuals and practice improperly for years and years (or decades) and not understand namarupapareccha or udabhaya by the end. A major obstacle is the reading of them as instructions rather than descriptions of the arising of bhavana. When the words are properly understood as descriptive, then the characteristics present moment can be recognized and the idea of "a self that practices to attain" is gradually worn down. The distinction between path and not path gradually becomes clearer and clearer, and that's when the first tentative steps on the path are taken. > M: Note: 'develop' > We have been studying the dhamma for years and it seems to be > happenig at a snails pace, certainly not in 7 years. We really need > to consider that we might have got it wrong. At least consider the > possiblity that there is something wrong somewhere. Yep. The error is in thinking there is a self to practice and a ritual that, when practiced, leads to insight. > M: If someone can directly experience things like (eye) consciousness > arising and passing away, and see how they are conditioned the > tilakkana becomes apparent. But sometimes it takes just seeing > arising and passing away to understand that there is no self, no > doer, that it is all an automatic mechanism. This was what I meant > by an anatta experience which I had. Right. Vism makes it clear that all vipassana, beginning with namarupapariccheda (the first "stage" of pre-vipassana) is an "anatta experience." There are also conceptual understandings of anatta that seem profound but still fall short of the clarity of namarupaparicchedanyana. >> D: I think there's a reason for that, viz., that the notion of doing a particular action >> to attain a particular result (i.e., rite, ritual, method, technique) >> is inherently tied up with sakayaditthi (which is why both the >> fetters of sakayaditthi and silabbataparamasa are shattered at the >> same time--they are EXTREMELY closely related). > > M: My friend. How extreme it is you will know when you have got rid > of sakkaya ditti. Till then this will be just theory until proven > otherwise. Maggamagga nana is only possible after becoming a > sotapanna. Until then we will be wise to be open to possiblities > since we do not know the attainments of another person (including > KS, myself and anyone else for that matter). > > When you think in the way you have mentioned above it is clear to me > your objections to having a method. I would see it that way myself, > were I in your shoes. > > Let me try to explain. It is complicated so im not surprised at the > confusion if it hasnt been experienced. > > When you experience directly - the result is panna. (bhavanamaya) > When you study and contemplate the result is panna. > (sutamaya, cintamaya) > > All these activities are done in the putajjana with a sense of self. No. Panya and the delusion of "self" are incompatible. However, with the puthujjana, self view is bound to arise again after the moments of panya subside because the understanding of reality is not yet deep enough to eradicate the anusaya of sakayaditthi, but as panya arises there is no sense of self. > One activity is not stronger in a sense of self than the other. It really depends on how the terms are defined. If you are speaking of panya as a cetasika--as paramattha--and sutamayapanya as the panya that arises upon hearing dhamma (which we often hear about in the suttas), then there is no sense of self in sutamayapanya or the others. If, as was recently suggested by some on the list, you speak of cintamayapanya as the exclusive province of Buddhas (supramundane insight panya that arose without benefit of hearing Dhamma from someone else), then cintamayapanya would be devoid even of the anusaya. If (like Goenka) you think of sutamayapanya as the wisdom of blind faith ("Wise person says such-and-such, so I believe it"), cintamayapanya as the wisdom of reasoning ("If you really think about it, such-and-such theory is a good one"), and bhavanmayapanya as the wisdom of experience, the sense of self is strong in sutamayapanya and (potentially) absent in bhavanamayapanya. > A person meditating, does not think 'im meditating, i need to attain > insight, i need to become and arahath' every second. ie - there is > no expression of avijja asava all the time. Agreed. > In fact in vipassana any papanca is a hindrence because they are concepts and no sati can be > maintained adequatley within them. I basically agree but would state it differently. In vipassana ("the intuitive light flashing forth and exposing the truth of the impermanancy, the suffering and the impersonal and unsubstantial nature of all corporeal and mental phenomena of existence", Nyanatiloka's dictionary), there is no papanca, no hindrances. In Vipassana ("any of the several meditation techniques popularized in the Theravada countries in the 20th century and spreading to the west beginning in the 1970's"), papanca is certainly a hindrance and prevents vipassana. Panpanca is a hindrance not on account of its concepting (after all, sati is strong in jhanas, which have concepts as objects), but on account of its proliferating. > Avijja (as papanca) should arise > less because there is calm (samadhi of the developed onepointed > variety as mentioned in the VM) and the mind is quiet. Right. Papanca arises less when the hindrances are suppressed, but this is a far cry from saying that avijja arises less in Vipassana (with a capital "V"). > So then, there is only direct experiencing. No avijja arising. The > proper conditions have been brought about previously to facilitate > this. Absense of avijja (moha) is not the same as the arising of insight (direct experiencing). Absense of avijja is characteristic of all kusala, but only some kinds of kusala arise with panya, and only some kinds of panya arise with insight. > So what happens to the sense of self? > > To understand this Self we look into its components (dhammaviccaya). > Rupa and (eye) consciousness can be understood if we closely observe > the process of perception in all of the sense doors. You will see > vadana and sanna arising, conditioned from phassa, which in turn was > conditioned from rupa and vinnana. You will see new sankharas > arising based on what you percieved. > > You see that all this is automatic and there is no one doing any of > this. you will see that it is all conditioned arising. (even > intention is automatic-no doer) > You will see that they pass away as well. Therefore you see that > they are impermanent. Everything you thought was flowing is seen to > be an illusion. You understand therefore that 'in short, the five > aggregates are suffering'. You have completed your understanding of > the First Noble Truth. You have now understood that there is no > self, but breaking the fetter comes later with further progress at > the point of magga citta. I agree that as the characteristics of nama and rupa are directly known with more precision, the illusion of self fades. A quibble: The complete understanding of the First Noble Truth only comes with experience of magga (i.e., "path"). Before that, understanding of the Noble Truths is conceptual (e.g., see MN 9:14 "When, friends, a noble disciple understands suffering, the origin of suffering,...in that way a noble disciple ...has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at his true Dhamma." Important to know the distinction between conceptual understanding and direct understanding. > There are many definitions of what silabbataparamasa means. One > meaning is rites and rituals like fire worshipping etc. -more linked > with the unshakble sadda of a sotapanna in the buddha,dhamma and > sangha (3 of the 5 sotapatti anga) in not pursuing the practices of > teachers other than the buddha - also linked with the dissappearance > of the vicikicca fetter (-about the tripple gem). Another definition > i came acros of silabbataparamasa is the one below: > > FETTER SOTAPATTI ANGA > vicikicca <--> sadda in buddha, dhamma, sangha > sakkayaditti <--> understanding DO > silabbata paramasa <--> keeps the 5 precepts > > In this breakng of silabbataparamasa was thought to be sila arising > naturally, not enforced from outside. (the word itself meaning sila > enforced from outside). This issue I addressed above. > M: I'm sorry. But the way you speak about meditation suggests to me > that you have not gained much insight from it, hence you think it is > worthless. Ks will attract and concentrate such people. It is not > the fault of meditation is it? > > We need to discuss attainment/understanding - otherwise it is just > empty theory. ..and attainment/understandong is individual. We can > learn from others. Kalyanamittas are very important. One of the wonderful distinguishing characteristics of dsg is that the discussion of Dhamma is focussed on Dhamma and not on comparing oneself with others. We can certainly learn from others, and I am very grateful to many of the contributors at dsg (esp. Sarah and RobertK) and to other Dhamma teachers I have worked with (Goenka, Jitamaro, Phramaha Sawai Nyanaviro, KS). One thing that all of them had in common was that there was very little tendency to say, "I have such and such attainments. Therefore, you should listen to me," or "You are foolish and pathetic; so are the people you talk to. You should listen to me." Instead, what they discuss is Dhamma, pure and simple, and not the conceits of comparing this person to that one. > M: Yes better not to speculate about what one doesnt know. But it > > > does bring up question about her ability to lead others atleast > to > > a > > > state of sotapanna if she doesnt know how to get there herself. > > > > Again, let's keep the discussion focussed on Dhamma rather than on > > speculation about what someone else does or does not understand. > > M: I think KS has conditioned in you a quick anwer to anything which > is difficult to handle! But nevermind :) No. There's just something unseemly about measuring and judging people in this manner--especially in a Dhamma discussion group. Metta, Dan > take care > > Matheesha > ps- I did note that i was rather pointed in my comments in my > previous posts. I think i was a bit irritated as i felt you were > being rather challenging. sorry about that. Apology accepted. 54221 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 11:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. dacostacharles Hi, I made the post to say that suicide is not a short cut. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Damsbovaenget 25 DK-5230 Odense M Denmark Phone: (+45) 6611 2080 Moble: (+45) 6177 7785 Email: dacostas@... MSN: Charles A. DaCosta Skype: dacostas -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Thursday, 29 December, 2005 23:17 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. Hi Charles, Ch:> Most Buddhist, including the Buddha, believes in morality and karma. A > common belief along these lines is "thou shall not kill," to do so would > create an effect that could block you from nibbana, even at death. Part of > this historic belief is that suicide is killing. M: I think you mean 'aanantariiya paapa kamma' (not sure what the enlish translation is) which blocks the way to nibbana in this lifetime. They include killing mother, killing father, hurting a buddha physically, causing schism amongst the sangha. It is said that a sotapanna are incapable of doing these. metta Matheesha > But then the question of suicide props up doesnt it? Why not go > right to the end. Most people cant commit suicide even if they > wanted to. A more pleasant way of going perhaps- Drug overdose? > > Then what if rebirth does exist? You would have a big problem on > your hands. You'd have wasted a human life. (its the old theory - > better to believe in god, because if he doesnt exist its ok - but > youre in for big trouble if he does!) > 54222 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 11:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience dacostacharles Hi joop, If the following statement you made is true, then yes: "According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model." In Being No One, Metzinger, a German philosopher, draws strongly on neuroscientific research to present a representationalist and functional analysis of what a consciously experienced first-person perspective actually is." The remaining issue would be, does the anatta-theory agree with the "phenomenal self" and the "transparent self" models? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Damsbovaenget 25 DK-5230 Odense M Denmark Phone: (+45) 6611 2080 Moble: (+45) 6177 7785 Email: dacostas@... MSN: Charles A. DaCosta Skype: dacostas -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop Sent: Saturday, 31 December, 2005 15:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience Hallo Charles We cannot know, but I have not found anything specific remarks of him in this direction. I'm glad you react to my message, but what is your question? Do you agree with my statement that this is another proof that the anatta-theory is correct? Metta Joop 54223 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 6:01am Subject: Re: Hello scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Scott, RobK, all > > Rob - I created a tiny url for the link you gave to Scott: > http://tinyurl.com/bjmb4 > > Welcome to dsg, Scott - hope some of the threads are helpful - and > that those members with knowledge and interest in the third basket > of the Tipitaka will surface after their end of year holidays and > add to any discussions. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- <....> Dear Chris, Thank you and glad to "meet" you. Sincerely, Scott. 54224 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:42pm Subject: Re: Listening Well,stream entry matheesha333 Hi Tep (Set 1) > > > Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means > > being an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN > > 117 defines two levels > > Tep: The first right view is not that of the Arahant : "one of right view, > whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, > and has arrived at this true Dhamma"; I have not claimed this right view > to be that of a sotapanna either. The point I have tried to make is there > are several right views. M: I agree with the idea that there are different degrees of right view. You can have mundane right view and not be an ariya. > .......................... > (Set 2) T:if you want > to, please give your answer to the above question (i.e. how does one > appropriately attends to the four noble truths such that the three fetters > can be abandoned for good? ) M: Dear Tep, to know the cessation of suffering -the 3rd noble truth, one has to have already progressed to that level. TO know that the noble eightfold path is that path to the cessation of suffering, one has to have already traversed it and experienced the results. To put it in another way the 4 noble truths are a complete experession of success in the path. It is not the other way around - understanding the four noble truths does not lead to abandoning the 3 fetters. It is a bit like 'knowledge and vision of release' -the knowledge can only arise after release; as I understand it. 1st noble truth: You will understands suffering in a conventional sense,("Birth, aging, death; sorrow,lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with what is not loved is stressful, separation from what is loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful) the mental and physical suffering. You can understand that when pleasure ends there is suffering ( the stressfulness of change). This needs more mindfulnes training to be detected because it is subtle (ie- a developmed faculty of mindfulness, developed in sensitivity, and span of time maintained). But that the 5 aggregates are suffering (dukkha as in the tilakkana) can be understood only through vipassana focused on the process of perception as I mentioned to Dan. This needs the development of sadda-->viriya--> sati--> samadhi. Samadhi will facilitate direct experiencing. Panna will arise. 2nd noble truth you can see that craving, when not satisfied, leads to suffering. craving giving rise to rebirth and the five aggregates (undrestanding based on faith) gives rise to a mass of suffering (aging,death etc). On a vipassana level: "For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress. When there is understanding of tilakkana: "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. There is understanding of the bliss of renunciation. which is... the 3rd noble truth. One a more deeper level, nibbida, revulsion towards the 5 aggregates (the opposite of craving) is a strong sudden emotion dismissing, rejecting everything in existence, rejecting all fabrications, rejecting all nama rupa. The mind is 'pushed' beyond the 8th jhana into a (non)glimpse of nibbana. The asankhata where there is no arising and passing away of anything. complete vijja giving rise to non arising of sanakhara (and the rest of the DO ending in dukkha). To give rise to such an experience we must be capable of going beyond the strength of the samyojanas for a moment. As far as I see the samyajana are what brings the mind back from nibbana and have it again rushing to the sense doors giving rise to fabrications. The middle ground between kaama loka and nibbana, is the rupa and arupa. So to traverse past these again and again the mind must be skilled in the jhanas. This is how phalasamawatha will be reached. But in the lower stages of the path to arahathood, the samyojana are still strong and phala experience is therefore disturbed - the mind slipping back again and again. "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object). This, just this, is the end of stress." [Ud VIII.1] The 4th noble truth is then understood. That this was the path to the cessation of suffering. I think this is the reason why the four noble truths are in this order. First you understand there is suffering and the full extent of that, then you find the cause, then you get rid of the cause, then if you were successful you see the path that you took. > > I cannot recall the "another sutta" by the Arahant-- I need more details, > please. MahaKotthita: "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?" Sariputta: "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-122.html M: This sutta talks of a stage after insight (yathabuthanana) has been gained. This is a stage where tilakkana (and perhaps other contemplations as above) can be constantly seen. This will lead to nibbida, the final rejection. metta Matheesha 54225 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > N: Citta does not arise out of nothing, it arises because of many different > conditions. The previous citta that has fallen away conditions the arising > of the following citta by contiguity-condiiton. This is only one of the many > conditions. Life is an uninterrupted series of cittas succeeding one > another, from birth to death. > Saññaa is a cetasika, mental factor, accompanying each citta and it arises > and falls away with citta. 'You' can remember what you just read here > before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize > letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. > This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from > one citta to the next one. > When you recognize something or someone it is not you who does so, but > saññaa. > -------- <...> > ***** > Nina. > Dear Nina, Thanks. Is the correct term "samanantara-paccaya?" I'm floundering, no doubt only conceptually, with the nature of contiguity-condition. Is there more to how things are "carried-on?" I mean, what allows that which is carried to carry-on? I feel that I am totally missing some key or other. Your kind assistance is appreciated. Sincerely, Scott. 54226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:59pm Subject: Re: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Jon: "Well, I don't see it that way. My question is simply this: If >there is an inclination to do an unwholesome act of speech or body, >but then there is the refraining from doing that, can this be an >instance of kusala (different from all other instances of kusala)? > >Joop: If you want an answer: NO; because I'm not refraining to do >negative but the feeling of urgency to to positive, that is: to >behave in an ethical way. > > The question was whether the described act and mind-state could be an instance of kusala. Your answer seems to be that you would regard this as "a feeling of urgency to do positive, that is: to behave in an ethical way" rather than a refraining from unwholesomeness. On that basis, shouldn't your answer then be 'YES' (that is, that it is an instance of kusala)? >===================================================== >Jon: "You mention 'negative' inclination; do you mean 'aksuala', or >something else?" > >Joop: Of course, what else? As far as I understand the >concepts 'kusala' and 'akusala', I translate in my shorthand them >as 'negative' and 'positive'. > The normal translation for 'kusala' is 'wholesome' or 'skilfull'. I believe it means not harmful (to oneself or to others). The translation of 'positive' may carry other connotations, and 'negative' for akusala may also cause confusion with the 'negative' of 'double negative' (which has no connection). > But don't forget: I didn't start the >use of the term 'inclination', because I don't know if a human being >has an inclination at all. >(see below) > > There may be a misunderstanding here. I was using the term 'inclination' to mean something like 'intention'. >===================================================== >Joop (some days ago)>But why make a detour of the double negation? >Why talk > > >>about "refraining from doing unwholesome"; >> >> > >Jon: "The double negative is a matter of linguistic expression and >thus, in the present context, of form rather than substance. The >substance here, as I see it, is the underlying behavioural situation >and its accompanying mental state (if you have a better description >of that particular situation, by all means share it with us!). > >Joop: "the underlying behavioural situation" as you label it, is to >have a ethical correct job (right livelihood not as a moment but as a >NEP-aspect) > > This is a point of disagreement between us. That's OK of course, but I'm still puzzled by your reasoning here: you disagree because my description contains a double negative !! Or have I misunderstood? >In the second place, the difference is more than only linguistic. >When I describe something positive, I don't need to assume something >negative first and then negate it; I don't know it that something >negative (akusala) exists at all. > > Nevertheless, the particular sequence of: (1) inclination/intention to do akusala, followed by (2) kusala resolution not to do so is one that everyone is familiar with, I'm sure. How would you describe it? >A question to you: is for you the difference kusala - akusala only >linguistic? > > Not only linguistic. But that's obvious; why do you ask (I'm afraid you've lost me)? Jon PS I'll reply on the accumulations point separately 54227 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 2:04pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: It suggests storage. But as I see it, nothing is > carried on, and all there is is conditionality: Because of what occurred in the > past, certain conditions repeatedly arise now, and we *say* that this is due > to accumulations or acquired tendencies, but the facts, it seems to me, are > simply "That having been, this is." M: I agree. The teaching is experiential. The concept of memory is a assumption after all. We only know when a thought arises now. but the contents of what arises suggests that there has been some movement of information. It cannot be said not to exist because it arises. It cannot be said to exist because it passes away! Then again, like you suggested, it really doesnt matter! ;-) metta Matheesha 54228 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 9:24am Subject: Ritual Versus Right Action upasaka_howard Hi, Dan & Matheesha - There is also the following sutta, which distinguishes dependence on ritual from dependence on proper action: _________________ AN V.175 Candala Sutta The Outcaste Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: A iii 206 Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. "Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is an outcaste of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, a dregs of a lay follower. Which five? He/she does not have conviction [in the Buddha's Awakening]; is unvirtuous; is eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts protective charms & ceremonies, not kamma; and searches for recipients of his/her offerings outside [of the Sangha], and gives offerings there first. Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is an outcaste of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, a dregs of a lay follower."Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five? He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside [of the Sangha], and gives offerings here first. Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower." Revised: Sunday 2005-12-04 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-175.html ___________________________ Also for your inspection, there is the following: __________________________ Thig XII.1 Punnika Punnika and the Brahman Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: vv. 236-251 Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1995 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1995 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. [Punnika:]I'm a water-carrier, cold, always going down to the water from fear of my mistresses' beatings, harrassed by their anger & words. But you, Brahman, what do you fear that you're always going down to the water with shivering limbs, feeling great cold? [The Brahman:]Punnika, surely you know. You're asking one doing skillful kamma & warding off evil. Whoever, young or old, does evil kamma is, through water ablution, from evil kamma set free. [Punnika:]Who taught you this — the ignorant to the ignorant — 'One, through water ablution, is from evil kamma set free?' In that case, they'd all go to heaven: all the frogs, turtles, serpents, crocodiles, & anything else that lives in the water. Sheep-butchers, pork-butchers, fishermen, trappers, thieves, executioners, & any other evil doers, would, through water ablution, be from evil kamma set free. If these rivers could carry off the evil kamma you've done in the past, they'd carry off your merit as well, and then you'd be completely left out. Whatever it is that you fear, that you're always going down to the water, don't do it. Don't let the cold hurt your skin." [The Brahman:]I've been following the miserable path, good lady, and now you've brought me back to the noble. I give you this robe for water-ablution. [Punnika:]Let the robe be yours. I don't need it. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, then don't do any evil kamma, in open, in secret. But if you do or will do any evil kamma, you'll gain no freedom from pain, even if you fly up & hurry away. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, go to the Awakened One for refuge, go to the Dhamma & Sangha. Take on the precepts: That will lead to your liberation. [The Brahman:]I go to the Awakened One for refuge; I go to the Dhamma & Sangha. I take on the precepts: That will lead to my liberation. Before, I was a kinsman to Brahma; now, truly a brahman. I'm a three-knowledge man. consummate in knowledge, safe & washed clean. Revised: Sunday 2005-12-04 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta ____________________________ And finally for your inspection, from the Sacitta Sutta (AN X.51), there is the following, which pointedly includes such phrases as "he should put forth" and "his duty is to make an effort," both exhortations to action, right action, and not rote ritual: ____________________________ "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities."But if, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain uncovetous, without thoughts of ill will, free of sloth & drowsiness, not restless, gone beyond uncertainty, not angry, with unsoiled thoughts, with my body unaroused, with persistence aroused, & concentrated,' then his duty is to make an effort in establishing2 those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents." _____________________________ It seems to me to be clear that the choice should not be between general intentional action (kamma), identified as ritual, and no intentional action at all, but between action that is superstitious, baseless ritual, a species of wrong action, and right action. Being mindful is right action. Guarding the senses is right action. Following sila is right action. Studying the Dhamma is right action. Cutivating the divine abidings is right action. Cultivating calm and wisdom through anapanasati and other forms of meditation taught by the Buddha is right action. Whatever we do stems from volition. Kamma is the motive force. From the Dhammapada, there are the following well known verses: 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54229 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 2:32pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard (Nina, Scott) - > > I appreciate Scott's questions about sanna and the answers given by > Nina. The Abhidhamma approach is an excellent starting point, but it > probably stops short of giving a complete and satisfying answer. > > > > In a message dated 1/2/06 9:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > vangorko@x writes: > > > > > 'You' can remember what you just read here > > > before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can > read, recognize letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa. > > > This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' > from one citta to the next one. > > > > > ==================== > > Howard: Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, > as I understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object > of that citta as its object. According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas > are involved with the "carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? It would > seem that there have been infinitely many experiences in "one's" > history. Exactly what cetasikas are involved that constitute this infinite > (or at least huge) storage mechanism? > > > > Tep: You have raised excellent points. I hope Nina's answer is not > going to be "Howard, it is accumulation that carries on all experiences > to a citta.". My prediction (and I haven't read ahead yet) from experience, is that Nina will completely change the subject, write about things somewhat related but not really, and if you press her for specifics she will drop the thread. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========== > James 54230 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 3:26pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year htootintnaing Dear Christine, Not that strange. It is a wish. The wish is for goodness of others. It is metta-things. Especially festive periods are excitable ones. I wished all to be happy at a festive time. With regards, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > Seasonal greeting. > > > > 'Merry Christmas and Happy New Year' > > > > May you be well and happy. I will be away for about two weeks > during > > Christmas. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Strange isn't it - for Buddhists, to be wishing each other Merry > Christmas :-) > But here in Australia, rather than a religious festival, Christmas > has long been more of a Family Festival - with loved ones coming > together usually for the sharing of meals and exchanging of gifts - > many travelling from around the globe to be together at Christmas > time. > > To Htoo, and everyone here at dsg, during the holiday festive > season, and always - > May you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, > May you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well- > being. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 54231 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 3:30pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Chris (and Htoo) - > > I was thinking that I would write to tell Htoo that I would gladly > accept just "Happy New Year", when I saw your post. > > Thank you, Htoo. May you have a great New Year yourself, and don't > forget to meditate. > > Wishing you and yours the best, > > Tep > > ========== ------------------------------ Dear Tep, :-)) I had been meditating. I was meditating at 23.55 hour on 31st December 2005. Then stopped and arose from meditation. Then sent out metta to all for 10 minutes. So 5 minutes was in 2005 and 5 minutes was in 2006. My friends were also meditating. After 10 minutes we sank in metta- meditation. May you be well. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54232 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 3:51pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 602 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to naama or ruupa at any given time with clear understanding. Attending to naama or ruupa happen when one attend one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' 5. 15 contemplations on body element (dhaatu manasikaara) There are 4 contemplations on 'body element'. They are 1. contemplation on earthy element of body (earth element/ pathavi) 2. contemplation on flowy element of body (water element/ apo) 3. contemplation on heaty element of body (fire element-temp/ tejo) 4. contemplation on moving element of body (wind-pressure/ vayo). The practitioner perceives these elements again and again and see them as just elements and nothing more than elements. At another time he or she may perceive that these elements are arising in other individuals like in his or her self's body. So there is another set of 4 contemplations. And sometime both internal and external body are contemplated that these 4 elements are arising in so called his or her body and others' body. Therefore there are 12 contemplations on body. There are 3 more extra contemplations on body elements. They are 1. contemplation on origination of body element 2. contemplation on dissolution of body element 3. contemplation on both origination and dissolution of body element Along with 12 contemplation these 3 contemplations make a total of 15 contemplations on body elements. There are 32 body parts. 20 are pathavi or earth-element and 12 are apo or water-element. There are 4 tejo or fire-element and 6 vayo or water-element. So altogether there are 42 things to be contemplated. a) pathavi dhaatu or 'earth-element' These are earthy, fleshy, solidy, massy and have characters of hardness, firmness, softness, roughness, smoothness, tenderness. There are 20 body parts that have mostly earth-element or pathavii dhaatu. 1. kesa (hair) 2. loma (body-hairs) 3. nakhaa(nail) 4. dantaa(teeth) 5. taco (skin) 6. ma.msam (flesh) 7. hnaaru (sinew/ligment) 8. a.tthi (bone) 9. a.tthimi.mja.m (bone-marrow) 10.vakka.m (kidney) 11. hadaya.m (heart) 12. yakana.m (liver) 13. kilomaka.m (membrane) 14. pihaka.m (spleen) 15. papphaasa.m (lung) 16. anta.m (intestine) 17. antaguna.m (mesentery) 18. udariya.m (gorge/stomach content) 19. kariisa.m (feces/rectum content) 20. matthalu.mga.m (brain) b) apo dhaatu or water-element These body parts have characters of flowability, fluidity, stickiness, oozingness, liquidity, etc etc. This means that even though there are all 4 elements in these 12 body parts they are in excess of water- element or apo dhaatu. 1. pitta.m (bile) 2. sehma.m (phlegm) 3. pubbo (pus) 4. lohita.m (blood) 5. sedo (sweat) 6. medo (mass of fat) 7. assu (tear) 8. vasaa (liquid fat) 9. khe.lo (saliva) 10.si.mghaanikaa (mucus) 11.lasikaa (synovial fluid) 12.mutta.m (urine) c) tejo dhaatu or fire-element 1. santappana tejo or 'pyrexial temperature' 2. jira.na tejo or 'metabolic temperature' that grows the skin old 3. daaha tejo or 'hyperpyrexic temperature' 4. paacaka tejo or 'digestive temperature'/ 'reactionary temperature' d) vayo dhaatu or wind-element 1. uddha`ngama vayo or 'upgoing wind' or 'belching wind' 2. adhogama vayo or 'downgoing wind' or 'wind that is let out' 3. kucchisaya vayo or 'peritoneal pressure'/'wind outside intestine' 4. ko.tthaasaya vayo or 'intestinal gas right in the intestine' 5. angamangaanusaarii vayo or 'transmitting wave through out body part 6. assaasapassaasa vayo or 'respiratory air' /'breathing air' The skill butchers kill cows and then heap all meat up at the junctions of cross-road at 4 corners to sell meat. When meat is seen there is no idea of 'cow'. Like this, The skill contemplators or meditators or Dhamma practitioners or kaayaanupassii or body-contemplators examine the body and find that there are body parts and they are just elements and they are pathavii or earth element (20), apo or water element (12), tejo or fire- element or temperature (4), and vayo or wind element (6). When elements are seen there is no idea of 'self' 'man' 'woman'. The practitioner perceives these elements in his own body (4 contemplations). Sometimes he perceives that these 4 elements are also arising in others' body (4 contemplations). At another time, he perceives that there are 4 elements arising in his own body and others' body (4 contemplations). At the time when he perceives 'this is hair' there is a mind. That mind or citta does arise and fall away. The idea of 'hair' is not groundless like 'proper name or personal name'. These do exist basic ruupa for hair. Those ruupa arise and fall away. There are origination of these citta and its arammana or object. They do not last long and they just dissolve or disappear soon. There are dissolution of these cittas and their objects. After these 2 extra contemplations there sometimes perceive the third contemplation that there are origination and dissolution of these dhamma. So there are 12 contemplations on 4 body elements and 3 extra contemplations on origination, dissolution, both origination and dissolution. So there are altogether 15 contemplations on body elements. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54233 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na lbidd2 Scott: "Dear Nina, Thanks. Is the correct term "samanantara-paccaya?" I'm floundering, no doubt only conceptually, with the nature of contiguity-condition. Is there more to how things are "carried-on?" I mean, what allows that which is carried to carry-on? I feel that I am totally missing some key or other. Your kind assistance is appreciated. Sincerely, Scott." Hi Scott, My 2 cents worth: contiguity condition has to do with how sanna arises with (contiguous with) other cetasikas and consciousness. It doesn't specifically relate to how sanna functions. Also, accumulation is a multifaceted subject that includes sankhara khandha. Abhidhamma doesn't explain exactly how all this works, but try looking at it in an ordinary scientific way. What _could_ continue? Nothing. We have to explain everything by action and reaction. As for sanna, if you think of it as basically recognition, I think you've got it. There is a lot more to memory and accumulation than recognition but abhidhamma doesn't go into it much. The mahayana tried to remedy this perceived deficiency with something called the "storehouse consciousness" (alaya vijnana), but they didn't really go into the nuts and bolts of it either. Btw, my brother is named Scott. Nice to see your nimitta. Larry 54234 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 4:41pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na robmoult Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. I > understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta, > and functions as "memory." I read how this latter function is > analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then > re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the > carpenter's marking of wood analogy. I've come across the Pali term > "nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process. > > What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and > comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist. Do they remain a > function of the object, that is inherent to each new moment of > awareness of a given object? I've come across the Pali term (forgive > my spelling) "attita-gaha.na," which seems to label a phase of > "grasping to the past." > > I would appreciate a chance to learn how properly to see these things. > Thank you for your consideration. ===== Greetings from a fellow Canadian! Regarding "memory", there is an excellent text, "Abhidhamma Studies" by Nyanaponika Thera which can be downloaded from: http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm Page 111-118 of this text discusses memory. The first conclusion (p116) from this text is, "Memory as we usually understand it, is not mentioned as a separate component of a moment of consciousness because it is not a single mental factor but a complex process." The second conclusion from this text explains that the most important mental factor for the arising of memory is sanna. This issue of memory led some schools of Buddhism (Yogavacara and others, as I recall) to develop the idea of a "storehouse of consciousness". This idea was rejected by the Theravadins as coming too close to being a "self". In the Patthana, you will note that there are two conditions where the conditioning factors and the conditioned factors can be separated by an indefinite period; asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). It is my belief (though it is never explained in the texts in this way) that natural decisive support condition plays an important role in the functioning of what we call memory. The conditioning factors (what acts as a condition) of natural decisive support condition are: - Strong past concepts - Strong past mental states - Strong past rupa The conditioned factor (what gets conditioned) is the current mental state (citta + associated cetasikas). A concept, mental state or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) Past can extend beyond rebirth. I recently gave a talk on rebirth and was asked how to explain how people remember incidents from past existences. I explained again that rebirth was like a candle passing its flame to another candle (in this analogy, the body of the candle is the physical body, the wick is the six sense bases, the oxygen feeding the flame are sense objects and the flame is consciousness). The only thing that gets passed is the consciousness. However, that consciousness is still subject to the same forces of asychronous kamma and natural decisive support conditions as was the old consciousness. In the new existence, a past-life concept / mental state / rupa is a condition for the arising of a stream of present- life mental states. Because of the delusion of self, we try to put this stream into context by describing it as "my memory" or "my experience". So where is the collection of past concept / mental state / rupa stored if not in a 'storehouse of consciousness'? When King Milinda asked Ven. Nagasena where kamma was stored, Ven. Nagasena gave an analogy of a mango seed. When a mango seed is planted and suitable conditions arise, there will be a tree, a branch and a new mango. So where is the new mango stored in the original seed? It exists as a potential, waiting for the right conditions. Scott, I hope that this helps.... Metta, Rob M :-) 54235 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 5:08pm Subject: Re: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? nichiconn dear Joop (and Tep), While we're waiting for Jon to tell us more about "accumulation", the following (with italicized words in < >'s) is from the Appendix to ~Naa.namoli's Minor Readings, just for more comparison / considering translations.... not to be taken for sankara (fight, confusion). <<< SANKHAARA. DETERMINATIONS was chosen after some vacillation. There have been perhaps more shots made by translators at rendering this term than any other. (the best and most usual) suits very well, but 'form' was already allotted to , for which no alternative could be found. DETERMINATIONS is perhaps better than . What has to be covered is (at least in the commentaries), very roughly, the doing of action and making of things the actions done and things made. See excellent article in PED. Constituting as they do the fourth of the five Categories, they are regardable as the action-choice components in a subjective-objective event or existence. When opposed to ('ideas', as e.g. at Dh.277-9) they can be taken to express that side of experience consisting in 'acts' as opposed to taken to express the complementary side, namely, 'ideas' or 'essences' or 'principles', etc. Sometimes they approach back to the ancient Indian (Brahmanical) notion of 'preparative rites' (sa'mskaara) for obtaining a good rebirth (M.iii.99, cited here in Ch. vii $34), the root is to do, act, make. DETERMINATIONS seems flexible enough to bear the strain. >> peace, connie 54236 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/2/2006 7:06:35 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Group, The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. I understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta, and functions as "memory." I read how this latter function is analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the carpenter's marking of wood analogy. I've come across the Pali term "nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process. What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist. Do they remain a function of the object, that is inherent to each new moment of awareness of a given object? I've come across the Pali term (forgive my spelling) "attita-gaha.na," which seems to label a phase of "grasping to the past." I would appreciate a chance to learn how properly to see these things. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. Hi Scott Nice question and many interesting responses. I would say that experiences/perceptions modify the form of the brain and that memories are held there. That's just a basic modern day idea, but I don't know why it should be ignored. When (and if) we are reborn, those memories are not transferred...because the brain patterns are lost. Apparently it is possible to remember past life experience through meditative techniques; in that case a different mechanism is involved which may indeed be a recounting of past consciousness impressions. This, I would think, is a much more subtle way of remembering and not the kind we are usually involved in. In either case, to me its a matter of conditions forming states. TG 54237 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 0:53pm Subject: The Principle of Dependent Arising vs the 12 Fold Chain TGrand458@... Hi All and Rob M., This thread (originally Cetasikas) was dropped before this point was discussed. I would appreciate others opinion if they so wish... Rob M. wrote... I understand dependent origination as a description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't see dependent origination as having context when discussing the components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a thought process. TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a 'principle' that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: This being, that is With the arising of this, that arises This not being, that is not With the ceasing of this, that ceases The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising (This being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha does so numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all conditioned states and therefore mental states. BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. Thanks TG 54238 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 6:12pm Subject: Re: The Principle of Dependent Arising vs the 12 Fold Chain robmoult Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi All and Rob M., > > This thread (originally Cetasikas) was dropped before this point was > discussed. I would appreciate others opinion if they so wish... > > > Rob M. wrote... > > I understand dependent origination as a > description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't > see dependent origination as having context when discussing the > components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a > thought process. > > TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a > 'principle' > that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything > conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: > > This being, that is > With the arising of this, that arises > This not being, that is not > With the ceasing of this, that ceases > > The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being > applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising > (This > being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha > does so > numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all > > conditioned states and therefore mental states. > > BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of > the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. ===== I think that we are in full agreement. Conditionality ("this being, that is...") is a universal principle. Dependent Origination is a special sequence (which can be described as a series of states / conditions) describing how we are bound to samsara. Metta, Rob M :-) 54239 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 1:29pm Subject: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... Hi Rob M., All, That's good. In the prior topic (cetasikas) you had stated the Abhidhamma view about how the falling away of one citta was the condition for the next. I mentioned that it seemed to violate the Dependent Arising principle because it basically meant -- this not being, that is... which is the violation. To me that means that if there is indeed a "string" of cascading cittas, it is a more complex dynamic at work than merely the falling away of a citta being the condition for the arising of the next. A citta that has arisen needs "positive factors" upholding it....not a negative one that has ended. What do you think? TG In a message dated 1/2/2006 7:13:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi All and Rob M., > > This thread (originally Cetasikas) was dropped before this point was > discussed. I would appreciate others opinion if they so wish... > > > Rob M. wrote... > > I understand dependent origination as a > description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't > see dependent origination as having context when discussing the > components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a > thought process. > > TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a > 'principle' > that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything > conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: > > This being, that is > With the arising of this, that arises > This not being, that is not > With the ceasing of this, that ceases > > The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being > applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising > (This > being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha > does so > numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all > > conditioned states and therefore mental states. > > BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of > the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. ===== I think that we are in full agreement. Conditionality ("this being, that is...") is a universal principle. Dependent Origination is a special sequence (which can be described as a series of states / conditions) describing how we are bound to samsara. Metta, Rob M :-) 54240 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 10:36pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 349 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1] We are inclined to think that our suffering in life are due to causes outside ourselves, to unpleasant events or to other people’s behaviour. However, the real cause of sorrow is within ourselves. Our defilements lead to sorrow. The goal of the Buddha’s teachings is the eradication of defilements and this cannot be achieved unless right understanding of realities has been developed. All three parts of the Tipiìaka, the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, have been taught in order to encourage people to develop the way which leads to the end of defilements. If we do not forget this goal, no matter which part of the scriptures we are reading, we can profit to the full from our study. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 54241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, op 02-01-2006 20:52 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Where I find confusion remaining is with regard to > the accumulation terminology. It suggests storage. But as I see it, nothing is > carried on, and all there is is conditionality: Because of what occurred in > the past, certain conditions repeatedly arise now, and we *say* that this is due > to accumulations or acquired tendencies, but the facts, it seems to me, are > simply "That having been, this is." (The content of your post follows below.) ------ N: As I tried to explain to Scott, there are several conditions operating: contiguity condition, repetition-condition, and especially natural strong dependence-condition. The words carrying on, accumulating can create confusion, I agree. If we say: there is just conditionality, some explanation is needed about the types of conditionality. How these exactly operate, we cannot know. What I find helpful is the explanation of the Visuddhimagga about the rebirth-consciousness that succeeds the dying-consciousness: it is neither the same nor other. In order not to approach the whole question in a theoretical way, I think that examples in our own life are helpful. A remark of Kh Sujin made me think: I learn now a language such as Pali, but in the next life this will be forgotten. But whatever understanding of Dhamma is acquired now is not lost, it can arise again in a next life. Here we see that inspite of saññaa now that remembers the Pali terms, these terms will be forgotten. Nina. Nina. 54242 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:26am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 213 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 213 Text Vis.: 'Order of teaching' is appropriate however; for there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen into assuming a self among the five aggregates owing to failure to analyze them; ------- N: As to the expression, by non-analysis (abhedena), the Tiika states that this means: by not analysing the khandhas, beginning with ruupa, by taking them together as a mass (pi.n.da). As to the expression, assuming a self (attagaaha), the Tiika states that they have fallen into the flood of wrong view (di.t.thogha)by the assuming of a self as mentioned. -------- N: The floods, ogha, is a group of defilements classified as: the floods of sensuality, becoming, wrong view and ignorance. ---------- Text Vis.: and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from the assumption by getting them to see how the [seeming] compactness of mass [in the five aggregates] is resolved; --------- N: The Tiika explains that seeing the resolution of the mass or whole (of the five khandhas) is done by distinguishing (vivecento) ruupa from aruupa (naama). -------- Text Vis.: and being desirous of their welfare, he first, for the purpose of their easy apprehension, taught the materiality aggregate, which is gross, being the objective field of the eye, etc.; -------- N: Ruupas such as visible object, sound etc. are gross, whereas naama is more subtle. --------- Text Vis.: and after that, feeling, which feels matter as desirable and undesirable; ------ N: The Tiika states that also the moderately desirable and undesirable objects are included. Feeling experiences the flavour of the object. ---------- Text Vis.: then perception, which apprehends the aspects of feeling's objective field, since 'What one feels, that one perceives' (M.i,293); then formations, which form volitionally through the means of perception; -and lastly, consciousness, which these things beginning with feeling have as their support, and which dominates them.[78] ------------------------- N: Feeling, saññaa and the formations, sa.nkhaarakkhandha, have citta as their support. Note 78.taken from the Tiika: 'Consciousness dominates because of the words "Dhammas have mind as their forerunner" (Dh.1) ------ N: Citta is the chief in knowing an object. The accompanying cetasikas share the same object but they each perform their own function. -------- Tiika: "Dhammas (states) that have parallel turn-over with consciousness" (Dhs.1522), ------- N: Dhammas that are evolving (anuparivatta) with citta. Thus, cetasikas evolve with citta, they accompany citta. ---------- Tiika: and as "The king, lord of the six doors", consciousness is predominant (adhipati), as in the story of Erakapatta, king of the Nagas. -------- N: Here there is reference to the Co to the Dhammapada vs. 182 (III, 230), to the Story of Erakapatta, the King of the Dragons and his Daughter. We read that the Buddha taught: ³He who is master of the Six Doors of the Body is a king. He who takes delight in them has passion for his master. He who does not take delight in them is free from passion. He who does take delight in them is called a simpleton.² ***** Conclusion: In this section the compassion of the Buddha is shown in teaching the five khandhas. He wished to teach those who were teachable (veneyya) but who took the khandhas for self. He wished for their welfare and taught them to resolve the Œwhole¹ of the five khandhas they took for Œself¹, in showing them the distinction between naama and ruupa. He taught first ruupakkhandha since ruupas are gross and more easy to apprehend. We have to remember that the explanation of feeling, saññaa and the other naama-khandhas are according to the order of teaching, not according to the order of their arising. The naama-khandhas arise together, at the same time and experience the same object. We read in the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of the Abhidhamma and Co. p. 281 ): Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na nilovg Dear Scott, op 02-01-2006 16:53 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: Is the correct term "samanantara-paccaya?" I'm floundering, > no doubt only conceptually, with the nature of contiguity-condition. > Is there more to how things are "carried-on?" I mean, what allows > that which is carried to carry-on? I feel that I am totally missing > some key or other. --------- N: Samaanantara-paccaya and aanantara-paccaya, which are practically the same are the condition by which each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following one. It is during the seven moments of javanacittas, which are kusala or akusala in the case of non-arahats, that good and bad tendencies are accumulated. Here repetition-condition operates as well. We learn (also mentioned in the suttas) about the latent tendencies, which are akusala, and which lie dormant in the citta until they are eradicated at different stages of enlightenment. If we ask ourselves: how exactly is this possible, we shall not find an answer. It is more helpful to reflect on examples of what accumulation means in the lives of others and of ourselves. The Bodhisatta had to accumulate the perfections life after life in order to become the Sammaasambudha. When the Bodhisatta was Jotipala, he was born into a family with wrong view, and temporarily his right understanding had no opportunity to arise. Just as a bright fire gets extinguished and becomes black coal. Jotipala abused the Buddha Kassapa with evil words. Then he had good friendship with the Potter Ghatikara who dragged him to the Buddha Kassapa. He gained faith and was ordained a bhikkhu. His former good accumulations of understanding and confidence conditioned kusala cittas with understanding. This type of condition is called natural strong dependence condition. There are many conditions operating in the case of a particular citta and we cannot know all of them. To return to saññaa, this cetasika has a connecting function in remembering, but it does not explain the accumulation of good and bad inclinations. When we study this cetasika, and others, we should remember that the term remembrance in conventional sense is not the same as this cetasika. On Rob K's Web you can find my Cetasikas, Ch 3, on saññaa where this is explained. Saññaa marks and remembers not only concepts but also naama and ruupa. When seeing now, saññaa just marks what is visible, no definition of what is seen. We tend to mix seeing with knowing what we see, since different cittas succeed one another very rapidly. Therefore, also the function of saññaa cannot be clear. It is often translated as perception, but we have to know that also when seeing or hearing arises it is accompanied by saññaa. No perception yet of the meaning of what we see or hear. Nina. 54244 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:51am Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > > Hi Rob M., All, > > That's good. > > In the prior topic (cetasikas) you had stated the Abhidhamma view about how > the falling away of one citta was the condition for the next. I mentioned > that it seemed to violate the Dependent Arising principle because it basically > meant -- this not being, that is... which is the violation. > > To me that means that if there is indeed a "string" of cascading cittas, it > is a more complex dynamic at work than merely the falling away of a citta > being the condition for the arising of the next. A citta that has arisen needs > "positive factors" upholding it....not a negative one that has ended. > > What do you think? > > TG I agree with your analysis. The falling away of a citta cannot, according to DO, condition the arising of another citta. To claim that the falling away of a citta conditions the arising of the next is like saying the going out of a candle flame conditions the next candle flame to arise- which of course isn't the case. There must be other factors which condition the arising and falling away of cittas, perhaps the materiality of the body? Or, you have just revealed one of the significant flaws of the citta theory. Metta, James 54245 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:35am Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi James / TG and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > In the prior topic (cetasikas) you had stated the Abhidhamma view > about how > > the falling away of one citta was the condition for the next. I > mentioned > > that it seemed to violate the Dependent Arising principle because > it basically > > meant -- this not being, that is... which is the violation. > > > > To me that means that if there is indeed a "string" of cascading > cittas, it > > is a more complex dynamic at work than merely the falling away of > a citta > > being the condition for the arising of the next. A citta that > has arisen needs > > "positive factors" upholding it....not a negative one that has > ended. > > > > What do you think? > > > > TG > > I agree with your analysis. The falling away of a citta cannot, > according to DO, condition the arising of another citta. To claim > that the falling away of a citta conditions the arising of the next > is like saying the going out of a candle flame conditions the next > candle flame to arise- which of course isn't the case. There must > be other factors which condition the arising and falling away of > cittas, perhaps the materiality of the body? Or, you have just > revealed one of the significant flaws of the citta theory. ===== Long time no chat!!! One of the distinguishing features of the Abhidhamma as compared to the Suttas is the number of methods of analysis used. Though you would not find them explicitly listed in the Suttas, the Patthana (7th book of the Abhidhamma) lists 24 conditions. Proximity condition and contiguity condition (#4 and #5) are considered to be the same. Proximity and contiguity mean without separation in time (immediacy) and space (closeness). When a King dies or renounces the throne, his eldest son becomes King without any interruption in the lineage of monarchy. Thus we can say that the King helps his eldest son to become King by proximity condition (case of death) or by contiguity condition (case of renunciation). Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has not fallen away, there can be only one citta at a time. The preceding citta is the condition for the arising of the subsequent citta (the conditioned dhamma). For proximity and contiguity conditions, the conditioning state is the preceding 89 cittas (excluding cuti-citta of Arahant) and their associated 52 cetasikas. The conditioned state is the succeeding 89 cittas (including cuti-citta of Arahant) and their associated 52 cetasikas. The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and disappearance condition (#23) as being the same. The absence of the sun contributes to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the appearing of darkness; the death of a king contributes to the enthronement of his eldest son; so one can contribute to something by being absent. When a citta and its cetasikas pass away, they create a condition for the immediately following citta and its cetasikas to arise. The conditioning / conditioned states for absence / disappearance condition are the same as the conditioning / conditioned states for proximity / contiguity condition. To make a long story short, conditions #4 & #5 look at things from one perspective while conditions #22 & #23 look at the same thing from the opposite perspective. They are describing the exact same thing... one citta follows another. You have also raised the topic of Dependent Origination (DO). Whereas the 24 conditions are gneral rules, DO is a special sequence of relationships used to explain how we are bound to samsara. In the Suttas, the Buddha talked about DO but not all the 24 conditions because the purpose of the Buddha's teaching is to free us from samsara, not to provide a comprehensive map of the laws of nature. Each of the links of DO has a relationship with the previous link and the subsequent link which can be described as a set of conditions. The only link of DO which involves conditions #4, #5, #22 & #23 is the first link - Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102-103 for details]. There are many conditions at work simultaneously. For example, the sixteen conditions at work when delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) - part of the first link of DO - are: - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object: When one is deluded into thinking that delusion is a happy state - Object Predominance / Decisive Support of Object: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Sorry for being so long-winded :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54246 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:43am Subject: HEY BETTY! christine_fo... Dear Betty, (Sukin and Matt), I've just had a phone message from Azita that you are having difficulty contacting me ... (thanks Azita!) Betty ... maybe you are writing to an old email address? Or maybe I am? I've sent you a few emails with no reply. The most recent was yesterday. Try sending me a note through the email addy in this post - click 'send email' icon. :-) Sukin and Matt Roke :-) and any other friends in Bangkok - if you are reading this post, can you point it out to Mom Betty please? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54247 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 2, 2006 10:49pm Subject: The Unconstructed State ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: There Exists an Unconstructed, Unconditioned and Unchanging State! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said to his monks: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Unconstructed, Unconditioned & Uncreated State, and the very way leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state... Listen and pay alert attention to that, which will lead you to lasting happiness!!! And what, bhikkhus is this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state? The elimination of Greed, the elimination of Hate, & the elimination of Ignorance: This is called the unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state of Nibbana... And what bhikkhus is the good way leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state of eternally pure bliss, open freedom and stilled peace? Awareness of the body as a collection of organs is a way to this unconstructed... The four foundations of awareness is a way to this unconstructed... Serene calm and profound insight is a way to this unconstructed... Absorption into concentrated directed thought & sustained examination is a way... Absorption into emptiness, into signlessness, and into the uninclined is a way... The four right efforts is a way to this unconstructed state... The four roads to force is a way to this unconstructed state... The five pure abilities is a way to this unconstructed state... The five pure powers is a way to this unconstructed state... The seven links to awakening is a way to this unconstructed state... The Noble 8-fold Way is a way to this unconstructed state... These are the ways leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state. Bhikkhus, I have now taught you the unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state, and the direct way leading to this unconstructed, unconditioned & uncreated state... Whatever should be done, bhikkhus, by a considerate teacher out of sympathy for his disciples, wishing their welfare, that I have now done for you. There are roots of trees, bhikkhus, there are empty huts. Meditate, do not neglect your meditation, bhikkhus, otherwise you will bitterly regret it later. This is our instruction to you... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [359-62] Section 43: On The Unconsctructed. The way to the unconstructed state: 1-11. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54248 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 3:41am Subject: Metta htootintnaing Dear Friends, Metta has no discrimination. Metta is a mental factor and it is non-aversion. It is positive wish of fulfilment of others' goodness. Metta is always always wholesome. Metta is always always profitable. Metta is always always kusala. Metta does not have discrimination between 1. self 2. enemy 3. beloved 4. non-enemy-non-beloved As soon as discrimination arises Metta has gone. May you all be well and healthy in this new year. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54249 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 3:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 603 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to naama or ruupa at any given time with clear understanding. Attending to naama or ruupa happen when one attends one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' There are 14 contemplations on body. When they are counted individually there are 261 contemplations. So far 207 contemplations have been discussed. 15 breathing, 15 posture, 63 detail movement, 99 body part, and 15 body element altogether ( 15 + 15 + 63 + 99 + 15 = 207 ) 207 frequencies of mindfulness. There left 54 contemplations. 261 - 207 = 54 contemplations. These 54 contemplations are contemplations on 9 stages of body foulness. They are the last 9 steps in 14 contemplations on body. In each step there are 6 contemplations. One is on the stage of own body foulness. Another is on others' body foulness. The third for contemplation on both 'own body foulness and others' body foulness'. The 4th is on origination, the 5th on dissolution and the 6th on both origination and dissolution. As there are 9 stages of foulness there are 54 contemplations on body foulness. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54250 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 604 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Right mindfulness, which stands for sammaa-sati, has to be the mindfulness to naama or ruupa at any given time with clear understanding. Attending to naama or ruupa happen when one attends one of the followings. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. Again 'mindfulness on the body' has to be anyone of the following 261 frequencies. 1. 15 contemplation on breathing (aanaapaana pabba) 2. 15 contemplation on posture (iriyaa patha pabba) 3. 63 contemplation on detail movement (sampaja~n~na pabba) 4. 99 contemplation on body part (pa.tikuulamanasikaara pabba) 5. 15 contemplation on body element (dhaatumanasikaara pabba) 6. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 1(navasivathika pabba1) 7. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 2(n b 2) 8. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 3(n b 3) 9. 06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 4(n b 4) 10.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 5(n b 5) 11.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 6(n b 6) 12.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 7(n b 7) 13.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 8(n b 8) 14.06 contemplation on body foulness at stage 9(n b 9) ------ ++261 contemplation on 'the body' There are 14 contemplations on body. When they are counted individually there are 261 contemplations. So far 207 contemplations have been discussed. 15 breathing, 15 posture, 63 detail movement, 99 body part, and 15 body element altogether ( 15 + 15 + 63 + 99 + 15 = 207 ) 207 frequencies of mindfulness. There left 54 contemplations. 261 - 207 = 54 contemplations. These 54 contemplations are contemplations on 9 stages of body foulness. They are the last 9 steps in 14 contemplations on body. In each step there are 6 contemplations. One is on the stage of own body foulness. Another is on others' body foulness. The third for contemplation on both 'own body foulness and others' body foulness'. The 4th is on origination, the 5th on dissolution and the 6th on both origination and dissolution. As there are 9 stages of foulness there are 54 contemplations on body foulness. There are 9 stages of body foulness. There are 14 body-contemplations or 261 body-subcontemplations. One way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'breathing'. Another way to contemplate on 'body' is to contemplate on 'posture'. Another way is to contemplate on 'detail movement'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body part'. Another way is to contemplate on 'body element'. There are 9 more further ways to contemplate on 'body'. They are contemplations on 'body foulness'. There are 9 stages of 'body foulness'. 1) stage 1 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'body' as if a corpse of one-day-old or two-day-old or three-day-old , which has been discarded at cemetery. The corpse is swollen or blackened or putrified according to its age (1 day or 2 days or 3 days). This body (my body) will follow the natural course like this corpse, this body will become a corpse like this, this body will not overcome this stage of foulness seen in this corpse. This stage one will have happened in others' body. This stage will have happened in both 'this body' and 'others' body'.(3 contemplations_self, others, self& others). Extra 3 contemplations are contemplation or origination, on dissolution, on both origination & dissolution. 2) stage 2 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, on which crows have bitten, hawks have bitten, vultures have bitten, ravens have bitten, jackals have bitten, tigers have bitten, leopards have bitten,foxes have bitten, worms have eaten. This body will follow this course, will become the corpse like this, will not overcome this stage of body foulness. ( 3 contemplations ). And then 3 extra contemplations as in stage 1. 3) stage 3 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, with residual flesh, smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. There are 6 contemplations as in other 'foulness meditation' of stage 1 and stage 2. 4) stage 4 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, without any flesh but smeared with blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 5) stage 5 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, without any flesh, without any blood, well-bound skeleton with tendons. 6) stage 6 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, unbounded loose bones scatter here and there as hand bone, foot bone, ankle bone, leg bone, thigh bone, hip bone, rib bone, back bone, shoulder bone, neck bone, jaw bone, tooth bone, skull bone. 7) stage 7 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discarded at cemetery, in which scattered bones become white and dry. 8) stage 8 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become a year old and heap up. 9) stage 9 ( 6 contemplations ) Again, another way of contemplation on 'body' is to contemplate and perceive 'the body' as if a corpse discared at cemetery, in which bones become rotten, crushed, moth-eaten and become bone dust. In each of these 9 stages of foulness there are 6 contemplations and so there are 54 contemplations on the body foulness. Kaayaanupassanas or body-contemplations are a) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' b) 15 contemplations on 'posture' c) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' d) 99 contemplations on 'body part' e) 15 contemplations on 'body element' f) 54 contemplations on 'body foulness' of 9 stages ------ ++261 contemplations on body All these contemplations are directed at ruupa or naama and they all are satipatthaana. Contemplations on body foulness is called aadinavanupassana. Satipatthana is to abolish the idea of 'beautifulness', 'permanence', 'satisfactoriness', 'self'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54251 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 5:07am Subject: Re: Sa~n~na scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Scott, <..> > Greetings from a fellow Canadian! > > Regarding "memory", there is an excellent text, "Abhidhamma Studies" > by Nyanaponika Thera which can be downloaded from: > http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm > > Page 111-118 of this text discusses memory. The first conclusion > (p116) from this text is, "Memory as we usually understand it, is not > mentioned as a separate component of a moment of consciousness > because it is not a single mental factor but a complex process." The > second conclusion from this text explains that the most important > mental factor for the arising of memory is sanna. > <...> >Dear Rob, Thank you. You've given me a lot to consider! It is very helpful. Sincerely, Scott. 54252 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: <..> > Hi Scott > > Nice question and many interesting responses. I would say that > experiences/perceptions modify the form of the brain and that memories are held there. > That's just a basic modern day idea, but I don't know why it should be > ignored. When (and if) we are reborn, those memories are not transferred...because > the brain patterns are lost. Apparently it is possible to remember past life > experience through meditative techniques; in that case a different mechanism > is involved which may indeed be a recounting of past consciousness > impressions. This, I would think, is a much more subtle way of remembering and not > the kind we are usually involved in. > > In either case, to me its a matter of conditions forming states. <...> >Dear TG, Thanks. (How do you remove the "non-text portions" of a message anyway - computer illiteracy is a terrible thing). I would assume that brain patterns would be rupa. Does consciousness, or that which carries the accumulations from life-time to life-time have the "capacity" to condition rupa arising as in the body, brain, etc? Sincerely, Scott. 54253 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott, and all) - In a message dated 1/3/06 4:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 02-01-2006 20:52 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Where I find confusion remaining is with regard to > >the accumulation terminology. It suggests storage. But as I see it, nothing > is > >carried on, and all there is is conditionality: Because of what occurred in > >the past, certain conditions repeatedly arise now, and we *say* that this > is > due > >to accumulations or acquired tendencies, but the facts, it seems to me, are > >simply "That having been, this is." (The content of your post follows > below.) > ------ > N: As I tried to explain to Scott, there are several conditions operating: > contiguity condition, repetition-condition, and especially natural strong > dependence-condition. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, that's fine! :-) --------------------------------------------- > The words carrying on, accumulating can create confusion, I agree. > If we say: there is just conditionality, some explanation is needed about > the types of conditionality. How these exactly operate, we cannot know. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It is useful to hear of the kinds of conditionality there are, and it is excellent when one is able to directly observe interrelationships. As to *how* the various sorts of relations "operate", I'm not really very sure whether the question is quite meaningful. If presumes a mechanism-view that may or may not have validity. Such a question strikes me as similar to someone asking for an explanation of why hardness is a body-door phenomenon rather than, say, an ear-door phenomenon, or why itches are unpleasant! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > What I find helpful is the explanation of the Visuddhimagga about the > rebirth-consciousness that succeeds the dying-consciousness: it is neither > the same nor other. > In order not to approach the whole question in a theoretical way, I think > that examples in our own life are helpful. > A remark of Kh Sujin made me think: I learn now a language such as Pali, but > in the next life this will be forgotten. But whatever understanding of > Dhamma is acquired now is not lost, it can arise again in a next life. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Events occurring now condition in a variety of ways what events will occur in the future. These events will be gone the moment they are completed, but their having occurred at all has its effect. --------------------------------------- Here> > we see that inspite of saññaa now that remembers the Pali terms, these terms > will be forgotten. > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54254 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) upasaka_howard Hi, James (and TG) - In a message dated 1/3/06 4:51:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > > > > > >Hi Rob M., All, > > > >That's good. > > > >In the prior topic (cetasikas) you had stated the Abhidhamma view > about how > >the falling away of one citta was the condition for the next. I > mentioned > >that it seemed to violate the Dependent Arising principle because > it basically > >meant -- this not being, that is... which is the violation. > > > >To me that means that if there is indeed a "string" of cascading > cittas, it > >is a more complex dynamic at work than merely the falling away of > a citta > >being the condition for the arising of the next. A citta that > has arisen needs > >"positive factors" upholding it....not a negative one that has > ended. > > > >What do you think? > > > >TG > > I agree with your analysis. The falling away of a citta cannot, > according to DO, condition the arising of another citta. To claim > that the falling away of a citta conditions the arising of the next > is like saying the going out of a candle flame conditions the next > candle flame to arise- which of course isn't the case. There must > be other factors which condition the arising and falling away of > cittas, perhaps the materiality of the body? Or, you have just > revealed one of the significant flaws of the citta theory. -------------------------------------------- Howard: D.O., the general scheme and the origin-and-cessation-of-suffering applications are indeed stated in terms of arising --> arising, and cessation --> cessation. But while the the Buddha did teach such, he didn't say that is the whole of it. Also, and I think this is rather important, what is considered positive and what is considered negative is often a matter of selection. Is the arising of wisdom different or the same as the cessation of ignorance? What if 'ignorance' has a positive grammatical form and 'wisdom' a negative one? Does 'equanimous' = 'unshakable'? There are so many words and concepts of this sort, are there not? Also, with regard to the citta theory, I don't think there is a claim that the cessation of one citta is *the* cause of the next, but only that it is one of the requisite conditions for the next. On the assumption that two cittas cannot co-exist, would not one have to cease in order for another to arise? It's cessation wouldn't be sufficient, but it sure would be necessary. Is it possible you are attacking a straw man here? --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54255 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. jwromeijn Hallo Nina, James, RobM, TG, Scott, Jon, Connie (and all) While waiting for an answer of Jon in another accumulations- discussion between him and me (Jon has not yet answered the accumulations-part of my message #54197) we can conclude that this point now is the central discussion-field on DSG now. Several discussions so rather chaotic. Perhaps some streamlining work of moderators can be done? James, I will not say "Or, you have just revealed one of the significant flaws of the citta theory", but I state that the Abhudhamma-system is overstretchted. I agree with a remark of RobM (#54234): "because the purpose of the Buddha's teaching is to free us from samsara, not to provide a comprehensive map of the laws of nature." But what are te consequences from this quote? To me it's no problem - and I think it should not be a problem for the Buddha too, but he was not interested in the kind of topics - to describe the way memory works, in conventional language. And when using conventional language it is permitted to use the best language we have nowadays: the memory is stored in the body, especially but not exclusively in the brains. Studying Abhidhamma is for getting liberated, not for understanding how (human) memory works; and "accumulations" is, like memory, something that is "stored". "Stored" is not the best possible word, because it's a very dynamic process. And the link with Abhidhamma is: every sense-door-vithi and every mind-door-vithi influences this dynamic process. Nina (in #54241 to Howard): "The words carrying on, accumulating can create confusion, I agree. If we say: there is just conditionality, some explanation is needed about the types of conditionality. How these exactly operate, we cannot know." Joop: OK, we cannot know, I accept that; but than we can better say: Abhidhamma was not constructed and is not useful to explain this kind of processes; that's no shame. RobM, a question about your message #54234; as I understand it well, "memory" in your way of thinking is the consciousness. If I understand you correct than my reaction is: this is a reductionistic idea; to me memory is nama-rupa: rupa is also playing a role in (the storing of) memory. Metta Joop 54256 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 0:01pm Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi James / TG and All, > ..... Hallo Rob A question about something in your message #54245: "The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and disappearance condition (#23) as being the same. The absence of the sun contributes to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the appearing of darkness; …" I understand this is a metaphore, I don't know if this a quote or your own words, but isn't very oldfashioned to say this? I can imagine that this is the scientific way of thinking of 2200 years ago; but today we describe and explain this phenomena in another way. My question: aren't you afraid that this kind of metaphores reinforces the idea that the "conditions" of the Patthana is a magic way of thinking? What kind of causality-paradigma is hided behind the disappearance condition? Metta Joop 54257 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 0:43pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na buddhistmedi... Hi, James - It is good that you are around and have been well informed. > > > > Tep: You have raised excellent points. I hope Nina's answer is not > > going to be "Howard, it is accumulation that carries on all > experiences > > to a citta.". > > James: > My prediction (and I haven't read ahead yet) from experience, is > that Nina will completely change the subject, write about things > somewhat related but not really, and if you press her for specifics > she will drop the thread. > Tep: Yes. Your perception of what happened before was accurate. But after having read Nina's latest posts, what do you think of your above prediction? I think Nina's answer to Howard's question is pretty direct this time. Accumulation still plays the most important role, though. Warm regards, Tep ========= 54258 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 0:53pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for your reply. >Htoo: > > I had been meditating. I was meditating at 23.55 hour on 31st > December 2005. Then stopped and arose from meditation. Then sent out > metta to all for 10 minutes. > > So 5 minutes was in 2005 and 5 minutes was in 2006. > > My friends were also meditating. After 10 minutes we sank in metta- > meditation. > Tep: Did you meditate while sitting down with your friends in a Buddhist temple? I used to visit a Buddhist temple in Houston, texas every year for the past 20 years. But I stayed at home this time and I was glad for the change. Warm regards, Tep ========= 54259 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:25pm Subject: Stilling, Billing, Chilling htootintnaing STILLING, BILLING, CHILLING Stand still, still stand Little chuckler no more want. Ban bill, bill ban Little suppler no more ran. Man chill, chill man Little juggler no more tan. HTOO NAING copyright 2006 54260 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:25pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year matheesha333 Hi Tep, > > Tep: I used to visit a Buddhist temple in Houston, texas > every year for the past 20 years. Is this a custom where you come from? (meditating entering into the newyear?) ..and If you dont mind me asking, where do you come from orginally? :) regards Matheesha 54261 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:32pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year htootintnaing Dear Tep, Changes and monotony. Sometimes people like changes. Sometimes they like monotonous life that is they do not want to be disturbed. Sometimes changes are good. Sometimes monotonous life seems stable. Jhana is monotonous life. Take this object. Then take this object which is exactly the same. Then take the same object again and again. This is why beginners in Jhaana practice do not acquire jhaana easily. Vipassanaa or satipatthaana is changing life. Take this object. Take that object. Still take another object. Always changing. Sammaa-samaadhi is coming soon under Dhamma Thread. I hope you will discuss again there. Friend always, Htoo --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo - > > Thank you for your reply. > > >Htoo: > > > > I had been meditating. I was meditating at 23.55 hour on 31st > > December 2005. Then stopped and arose from meditation. Then sent out > > metta to all for 10 minutes. > > > > So 5 minutes was in 2005 and 5 minutes was in 2006. > > > > My friends were also meditating. After 10 minutes we sank in metta- > > meditation. > > > > Tep: Did you meditate while sitting down with your friends in a > Buddhist temple? I used to visit a Buddhist temple in Houston, texas > every year for the past 20 years. But I stayed at home this time and I > was glad for the change. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > 54262 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:34pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > > Tep: I used to visit a Buddhist temple in Houston, texas > > every year for the past 20 years. > > Is this a custom where you come from? (meditating entering into the > newyear?) ..and If you dont mind me asking, where do you come from > orginally? :) > > regards > > Matheesha ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Who did what? Please read the whole thread from the beginning through recent message. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54263 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:56pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 605 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 7th path-factor or the 7th magga`nga is sammaa-sati. It is right mindfulness. It is mindfulness to wholesome deeds or profitable things. The mindfulness has to be at naama or ruupa at any time if it has to be right mindfulness or sammaa-sati. When one attends one of the four foundations of mindfulness he or she is said to attend at a naama or a ruupa. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things of foundation of mindfulness. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. There are 261 contemplations on the body. They have been discussed in the previous posts. 2. contemplating on the feeling There are 30 feeling-contemplations or 30 contemplations on feeling. These 30 contemplations are vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana. They are contemplations on feeling. However, feeling never exists alone. Feeling arises along with consciousness. According to 'the definition of consciousness in Oxford English Dictionary consciousness comprises feeling. Abhidhamma says in each and every citta or consciousness there is a feeling. This means if there is a citta then there is a feeling associated with that citta. So if there is no citta then there is no feeling at all. Feeling or vedana is one of 5 aggregates or one of panca khandhas. There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. They are 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation aggregates 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregates. In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Here in this post there will describe 30 contemplations on feeling and this is contemplation on vedana-kkhandha. Ruupa-kkhandha is contemplated in both of kaayanupassana and dhammaanupassana. But kaayaanupassana or contemplations on the body is mainly on ruupa-kkhandha. There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for themselves. These 9 contemplations are 1. this is pleasant feeling. 2. this is unpleasant feeling. 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attainin) 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. At a time the individual thinks that these feelings would have been arising and passing away in other individuals and they are just feelings that are not self. So there is another set of 9 contemplations on other individuals. At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. There are originations of these feelings. This is another contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these feelings. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. This is for simplicity and further clarification may be required. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54264 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:04pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James - > > It is good that you are around and have been well informed. > > > > > > > Tep: You have raised excellent points. I hope Nina's answer is not > > > going to be "Howard, it is accumulation that carries on all > > experiences > > > to a citta.". > > > > James: > > My prediction (and I haven't read ahead yet) from experience, is > > that Nina will completely change the subject, write about things > > somewhat related but not really, and if you press her for specifics > > she will drop the thread. > > > > Tep: Yes. Your perception of what happened before was accurate. > > But after having read Nina's latest posts, what do you think of your > above prediction? I think Nina's answer to Howard's question is pretty > direct this time. Accumulation still plays the most important role, > though. I agree with you. I think that her subsequent posts, after this harsh post of mine, were much more direct and to the point. It is okay to admit the limits of the Abhidhamma, or the limits of one's personal knowledge, rather than raising a snow storm. I hope my post conditioned the more forthcoming follow-up posts (though I got another moderator warning off-list ;-)). > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > Metta, James 54265 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:24pm Subject: Re: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? matheesha333 Hi friends, Just came across a sutta about what makes success in the dhamma possible. Quite interesting in what it does and does not contain, on this thread of accumilations: 9. Akkhaõasuttaü- Not the right time. 003.09. Bhikkhus, the not learned ordinary man says, should not miss the monent. He does not know the right moment or the wrong moment. Bhikkhus, there are eight times, eight instances not suitable to lead the holy life. What eight? Here, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in hell. Bhikkhus, this is the first unsuitable instance to lead the holy life. Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in the animal world. Bhikkhus, this is the second unsuitable instance to lead the holy life. Again, bhikkhus, .....re..... this person is born in the sphere of ghosts...... Again, bhikkhus, .....re..... this person is born as a certain god.with long life....... Again, bhikkhus, .....re..... this person is born to someone in the bordering states among not learned Barbarians, where bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male or female are not seen .Bhikkhus, this is the fifth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life. Again, bhikkhus, .....re..... this person is born to someone in the central states, he is with wrong view, with a perverted view- There are no results for giving gifts, there are no results for an offering, for a sacrifice. There are no results for good and evil actions. There is no this world, there is no other world. There is no mother, no father. There are no beings spontaneously arisen. In this world there are no recluses and Brahmins who have come to the right path and having realized by themselves declare it.....re.... Again, bhikkhus, .....re..... this person is born to someone in the central states without wisdom, with saliva dripping, not able to discriminate between good and evil words to know something. Bhikkhus, this is the seventh unsuitable instance to lead the holy life. . Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One worthy and rightfully enlightened ....re... Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness extinction preached by the Well Gone One is not preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the eighth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life. . Bhikkhus, there is one right instance to lead the holy life, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the only instance to lead the holy life." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-e.htm 54266 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:36pm Subject: How we live our lives htootintnaing Dear Friends in Dhamma, This issue is very important both in terms of spiritual happiness and spiritual healthiness. Moreover, this issue is more than spirituality. Which is this issue? It is the issue of 'how we live our lives'. Are we living in the way we like? Are we living in the way we should live? Are we living in the way we have to live? Friends, how do you see on these matters? Friend in Dhamma, Htoo Naing 54267 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:44pm Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) buddhatrue Hi Rob M., Rob M: Long time no chat!!! James: Yes, nice to chat with you. Hope you are doing well in Malaysia. You have given me quite a lot to chew on here! I was just making an off-the-cuff post, I didn't know it would inspire such a lengthy response. I hesitate to respond, because I am quite busy at the moment and don't have a lot of time, but I will give it my best shot. My replies will be brief. Rob M: Proximity condition and contiguity condition (#4 and #5) are considered to be the same. James: Well, that's not very helpful of the Patthana. It doesn't make much sense to name two conditions which are really the same ;- )) (just a side comment). Rob M: Proximity and contiguity mean without separation in time (immediacy) and space (closeness). When a King dies or renounces the throne, his eldest son becomes King without any interruption in the lineage of monarchy. Thus we can say that the King helps his eldest son to become King by proximity condition (case of death) or by contiguity condition (case of renunciation). James: Okay, I'm following you, but this doesn't seem to be a direct type of conditioning. The king dies so the son becomes the king. What if the king didn't have a son? What if the son renounces the kingship? This seems to me to be a very loose and indirect type of conditioning- not like what the Buddha taught: When this arises, that arises; with the ceasing of this, that ceases. Here we have a more direct conditioning (at least in my mind). Rob M: Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has not fallen away, there can be only one citta at a time. The preceding citta is the condition for the arising of the subsequent citta (the conditioned dhamma). James: You are just restating the theory. How is it that one citta falling away conditions the arising of the next citta? Your previous metaphor of the king doesn't work here, we aren't supposed to have extra cittas waiting in the wings to take the place of the cittas which have disappeared, do we? We are talking one citta completely disappearing and then another arising from the ashes or something of the previous citta. The theory reminds of the myth of the Phoenix or Jesus rising from the dead. Rob M: For proximity and contiguity conditions, the conditioning state is the preceding 89 cittas (excluding cuti-citta of Arahant) and their associated 52 cetasikas. The conditioned state is the succeeding 89 cittas (including cuti-citta of Arahant) and their associated 52 cetasikas. James: There is no way I could verify this for myself so it is meaningless to me. The Buddha taught that the dhamma should be verified for oneself. Am I supposed to accept these numbers on faith? Rob M: The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and disappearance condition (#23) as being the same. James: Well, that Patthana just can't make up its mind! ;-)) Rob M: The absence of the sun contributes to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the appearing of darkness; the death of a king contributes to the enthronement of his eldest son; so one can contribute to something by being absent. James: Each of these examples have both things present at the same time. The absence of the sun doesn't make the moon suddenly come into existence, etc. One citta is supposed to completely disappear, cease to exist, and then another citta is supposed to suddenly appear, when it didn't exist before. Again, your examples don't apply to this process. RobM: When a citta and its cetasikas pass away, they create a condition for the immediately following citta and its cetasikas to arise. James: How??? Magic?? ;-)) Rob M: To make a long story short, conditions #4 & #5 look at things from one perspective while conditions #22 & #23 look at the same thing from the opposite perspective. They are describing the exact same thing... one citta follows another. James: Well, I don't see how they describe that. The only way that would be possible is if you believe the Yogacarans (I think) who posit that the past, present, and future all exist in the present moment. Okay, I'm tired now. I can't possibly tackle the rest of your post. I might approach it another time. Metta, James 54268 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <...> --------- > N: Samaanantara-paccaya and aanantara-paccaya, which are practically the > same > are the condition by which each citta that falls away conditions the arising > of the following one. > > It is during the seven moments of javanacittas, which are kusala or akusala > in the case of non-arahats, that good and bad tendencies are accumulated. > Here repetition-condition operates as well. > We learn (also mentioned in the suttas) about the latent tendencies, which > are akusala, and which lie dormant in the citta until they are eradicated at > different stages of enlightenment. <...> Dear Nina, All, Thanks for your posts. Although sanna has been elucidated, and I mean as a concept, when trying to take a microscopic look at it (as I guess I may be attempting - as for example in what is the "marking" process) the task becomes difficult as sanna is imbedded in a dynamic, complex whole. I think that the added concept of "accumulations" is an interesting one. In my less than informed view, accumulations are like marks in a way, this sanna-like connecting process which extends beyond a single life time, I guess in both temporal directions. They are also potential, as one of you kind respondents noted (sorry I can't recall now, I can't keep up with the thread very well). I'm reading some of the literature suggested, which is taking a bit of time. My sporadic presence does not indicate disinterest. Thanks again. I'll be back. Sincerely, Scott. 54269 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 3:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) buddhatrue Hi Howard, Howard: But while the the Buddha did teach such, he didn't say that is the whole of it. Also, and I think this is rather important, what is considered positive and what is considered negative is often a matter of selection. Is the arising of wisdom different or the same as the cessation of ignorance? James: You might want to read my current response to Rob M. To answer this question: wisdom doesn't "arise" really, it is always present. The inherent nature of the mind is luminous, wise, as the Buddha taught. It is when the kilesas are destroyed that this inherent wisdom is known. Let me throw a question back at ya! ;-)): When the kilesas are destroyed (cessation) and the state of nibbana is achieved (nibbana which is also known as cessation), does that state condition the arising of anything? Howard: Also, with regard to the citta theory, I don't think there is a claim that the cessation of one citta is *the* cause of the next, but only that it is one of the requisite conditions for the next. James: Okay, you have me blown away with this statement! I was under the impression that `conditions' could also be seen as `causes'. Am I mistaken? Anyway, my impression from Rob M's answers is that the cessation of one citta conditions the arising of the next. He didn't mention any other `requisite conditions' and he didn't make a logical separation between `conditions' and `causes'. Now I am getting a headache! ;-)) I should just keep quiet for now on! ;-)) Howard: On the assumption that two cittas cannot co-exist, would not one have to cease in order for another to arise? It's cessation wouldn't be sufficient, but it sure would be necessary. James: But why is it that two cittas cannot co-exist? Why make that assumption? That is what I am saying, the complete picture is not making itself very clear in this theory. What is it that directly conditions, or causes, the arising of the next citta? How are the qualities of one citta which has completely fallen away arise in any form in the subsequent citta? I am not getting good explanations, just restatements of the theory. Howard: Is it possible you are attacking a straw man here? James: Possibly. I am so brain dead from this discussion that I feel like I may have straw in my head! ;-)) Metta, James 54270 From: connie Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 3:38pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nichiconn Thank you, James. James: ;-)) [...] I looked into this group's links and found the link of "Glossary a Pali Terms" and here is what I found (which does correspond to my intended meaning): bhavana [bhaavanaa] mental development, comprising the development of calm and the development of insight. C: Yeah, "calling into being" those oppositions to craving and ignorance. << A. II, 10: "What, o monks, is the power of reflection? If, o monks, someone thinks thus: 'Bad conduct in deeds, words and thoughts verily bears bad fruits both in this life, as well as in the next life', and in consequence of this consideration, he abandons bad conduct in deeds, words and thoughts, follows good conduct, and keeps his heart pure, this, o monks, is the power of reflection. "What, o monks, is the power of mental development? If, o monks, a monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness, investigating of the law, energy, rapture, tranquility, concentration, and equanimity, this, o monks, is the power of mental development." >> ;) bhavana [root = bhuu (earth)] (nt) becoming; a dwelling place; sphere, world, realm. bhaavaanaa [fr. bhaaveti (increases, cultivates, develops); bhaava (becoming, nature, condition)] (f) producing; dwelling on something; culture; keeping in being. The Guide: << #46: Herein, inquiry, interest, estimating, scrutiny, is understanding consisting in what is heard (see D.iii,219). Such inquiry, estimating, scrutiny, mental looking-over, with what has been heard as the support, is understanding consisting in cogitation. Knowledge that, in one associating his attention with these two kinds of understanding, arises on the plane of seeing or on the plane of keeping-in-being, {1} is understanding consisting in keeping-in-being. [Now] understanding consisting in wht is heard [arises] from another's utterance. Understanding consisting in cogitation [arises] from reasoned attention {2} moulded {3} for oneself. Understanding consiting in keeping-in-being is knowledge that arises by means of another's utterance and by means of reasoned attention moulded for oneself {4} (cf. Pe 233). 1} 'Seeing' (dassana) as a technical term means the 1st path, at which moment nibbaana is first 'seen'. 'Keeping in being' (bhaavanaa - caus. subst. fr. rt. bhu - to be) is the corresponding technical term for the remaining three paths, which 'keep that vision of nibbaana in being' by repeating it. This latter word has thus an important ontological significance. 2} 'Yoniso manasikaara -- reasoned attention'. Yoni (lit. 'womb') is figuratively used for the 'reason' from which an idea is 'born', ie, a condition-sine-qua-non (paccaya), see M.iii,142. Manasi-kaara means what it says, namely 'doing in the mind'. It is always necessarily present. Yoniso manasikaara ('reasoned attention') as a technical term means thinking in terms of the specific conditionality of existence. The classic example is given at S.ii,105f.; the opposite, ayoniso manasikaara, is any train of thought which ignores that specifically conditioned structure of existence (see M.i,7), and which results in the formation of wrong views and the consequent production of suffering. It is not to be confused with temporal ('historical') causality. 3} 'Moulded for oneself' refers primarily to the original thinking by 'reasoned attention' described at S.ii,105f. 4} Cf. Pe 1-2. #47: He in whom there are the two kinds of understanding, namely that consisting in what is heard and that consisting in cogitation, is one who gains knowledge by what is condensed. He is whom there is understanding consisting in what is heard but no understanding consisting in cogitation is one who gains knowledge by what is expanded. He in whom there is neither understanding consisting in what is heard nor understanding consisting in cogitation is guidable (cf. Pe 30). >> Pe 1-2. There are two causes, two conditions, for the arising of a hearer's right view: they are another's utterance sequential upon truth, and reasoned attention in oneself. (cf. A.i,87). Pe 1-4. Herein, what is reasoned attention in oneself? What is called reasoned attention in oneself is any reasoned attention given to the True Idea as taught, without adducing any external object; this is called reasoned attention. That mood, when reasoned, is a door-way, a directive, a means (?). Pe 30. (9) Herein, what is despair? < Just as a goldsmith's furnace burns Only within and not without > (Cf. Jaa. vi, 189, 437, 442), < So too my heart is all afire, Hearing the Lotus has been born > ( ), [and] the three fires (Iti.92). This is despair. Pe 233. These three roots of the profitable have now been demonstrated as to cause, as to outcome, and as to fruit. What does "Cf." mean, btw? The "?" in Pitaka Disclosure 1-4 means the condition of the preserved texts is somewhat lamentable. Anyway, that's what I was thinking about when I asked what you meant. peace, connie 54271 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. robmoult Hi Joop and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > RobM, a question about your message #54234; as I understand it > well, "memory" in your way of thinking is the consciousness. If I > understand you correct than my reaction is: this is a reductionistic > idea; to me memory is nama-rupa: rupa is also playing a role in (the > storing of) memory. ===== In his first meeting with King Milinda, Nagasena explained that what is conventionally called chariot is really an assembly of smaller parts. Chariot is a concept, a convention, an agreed-upon description of a collection of parts (which is why all chariots do not look or act the same, yet still carry the same name). In my opinion, memory is a concept, a convention, an agreed-upon description of a complex collection of mental processes (many series of mental states - not a single mental state). Consciousness, mental factors (especially sanna) and conditions (especially natural decisive support condition) all play a role. Rupa plays a role in memory in the same way it plays a role in all consciousness; as a "support" for the mental state. However, rupa does not play a role in physical storage. Consider people remembering past lives... how can that memory be stored in rupa as there is no link between the rupa of the past existence and the rupa of this existence? Metta, Rob M :-) 54272 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 4:27pm Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi James / TG and All, > > > ..... > > Hallo Rob > > A question about something in your message #54245: > "The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and disappearance > condition (#23) as being the same. The absence of the sun contributes > to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the > appearing of darkness; …" > > I understand this is a metaphore, I don't know if this a quote or > your own words, but isn't very oldfashioned to say this? > I can imagine that this is the scientific way of thinking of 2200 > years ago; but today we describe and explain this phenomena in > another way. ===== The analogies are originally from Buddhaghosa, but I copied them from Nina's ebook, "The Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings. An outline of the Twentyfour Conditions as taught in the Abhidhamma." I see these as simple analogies to explain the various conditions, not intended as scientific (or pseudo-scientific") explanations. I think that we can simplify proximity, contiguity, absence and disappearance conditions into one sentence, "Cittas arise sequentially and there can only be one at a time." Of course, one can ask the question as to why they need four conditions to describe such a simple concept. The Suttas and the Abhidhamma are never short on repetition... :-) ===== > > My question: aren't you afraid that this kind of metaphores > reinforces the idea that the "conditions" of the Patthana is a magic > way of thinking? ===== I see conditions as "rules of nature". Perhaps we have different perspectives - they do not inspire a "magical way of thinking" in my mind. The Patthana is an incredibly difficult book to read. Thanks to simple analogies such as given by Buddhaghosa and summaries such as that written by Nina, it becomes much simpler, much more accessible. When I simplify four conditions into "Cittas arise sequentially and there can only be one at a time.", it becomes a lot easier to absorb. ===== > What kind of causality-paradigma is hided behind the disappearance > condition? > ===== In my opinion, the underlying paradigm is that there are mutually exclusive states that cannot overlap - for example, one cannot have two kings of a country at the same time. Metta, Rob M :-) 54273 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/3/06 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Howard: But while the the Buddha did teach such, he didn't say that > is the whole of it. Also, and I think this is rather important, what > is considered positive and what is considered negative is often a > matter of selection. Is the arising of wisdom different or the same > as the cessation of ignorance? > > James: You might want to read my current response to Rob M. To > answer this question: wisdom doesn't "arise" really, it is always > present. The inherent nature of the mind is luminous, wise, as the > Buddha taught. It is when the kilesas are destroyed that this > inherent wisdom is known. Let me throw a question back at ya! ;-)): > When the kilesas are destroyed (cessation) and the state of nibbana > is achieved (nibbana which is also known as cessation), does that > state condition the arising of anything? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think the neral matter has a simple, single answer. Some events are cessations, some are arisings, and some can be seen as either. Also, in some cases, a cessation and an arising are mutually dependent. As to the uprooting of kilesas (or their complete cessation) and the realization of nibbana, I don't know whether they are one and the same, or just related, but I suspect that they are not one and the same, but are mutually dependent. As I see it, neither occurs without the other. Nibbana, itself, as opposed to its realization, is not something that arises, though, so far as I understand the teaching. ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: Also, with regard to the citta theory, I don't think there > is a claim that the cessation of one citta is *the* cause of the > next, but only that it is one of the requisite conditions for the > next. > > James: Okay, you have me blown away with this statement! I was > under the impression that `conditions' could also be seen > as `causes'. Am I mistaken? > ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes, I think you may be. My understanding is that in general, a condition for a phenomenon is one of several dhammas each of which is necessary for the occurrence of that phenomenon, and that no single dhamma, by itself, constitutes the entirety of a "cause". ------------------------------------- Anyway, my impression from Rob M's > > answers is that the cessation of one citta conditions the arising of > the next. He didn't mention any other `requisite conditions' and he > didn't make a logical separation between `conditions' and `causes'. > Now I am getting a headache! ;-)) I should just keep quiet for now > on! ;-)) ------------------------------------- Howard: No, the falling away of the current citta, in Abhidhammic theory, is but *one* condition for the arising of a next one, as far as I understand the matter. As a case in point, what if that citta were the last citta in the life of an arahant? As some interpret parinibbana, there is no next citta. Necessary conditions for the arising of any mindstate are at least the cessation of the prior one and the presence of ignorance in that prior one. Also, for a particular citta to arise, a citta with specific characteristics, other specific conditions would have to have held or must currently hold. (Of course, I look askance at the whole idea of cittas as separate, self-existent things. I personally take the notion of mindstate to be a conventional one: At any point in time, the "current mindstate" consists of whatever are the object-content, the knowing of it, and all the mental operations that are in effect at the time, and whenever any of this changes - by addition, deletion, or replacement - it is now a new mindstate.) ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: On the assumption that two cittas cannot co-exist, would not > one have to cease in order for another to arise? It's cessation > wouldn't be sufficient, but it sure would be necessary. > > James: But why is it that two cittas cannot co-exist? Why make that > assumption? That is what I am saying, the complete picture is not > making itself very clear in this theory. What is it that directly > conditions, or causes, the arising of the next citta? How are the > qualities of one citta which has completely fallen away arise in any > form in the subsequent citta? I am not getting good explanations, > just restatements of the theory. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, look at my definition of a citta or mindstate. It's virtually tautologous that there is no co-occurrence. --------------------------------------------- > > Howard: Is it possible you are attacking a straw man here? > > James: Possibly. I am so brain dead from this discussion that I > feel like I may have straw in my head! ;-)) --------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54274 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 4:36pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Dan, D:> Excellent comments, Matheesha. I very much appreciate your efforts in > considering and discussing Dhamma--great contributions > > to the group. M: Thank you. > > D:> KS certainly has an unusual approach to teaching and discussing > > > Dhamma. > > M: Why do you think it is unusual? D:> It is unusual in the extent to which she makes the distinction > between concept and reality. M: The extent, yes D:She does this because the > illusion of "Self" is purely conceptual so when reality is known, > that illusion of Self is shattered. That is the core of > Buddha's teaching. M: Does she say understanding anatta is the core of the buddhas teaching? I think it could be considered core and quite symbolic of the sotapanna stage. My vote goes for the irradication of lobha, dosa and moha as the core of the entire teaching. > >> D:is there a distinction between conceptual meditation and real > meditation? > > > > M: Yes, something which is not clearly obvious if study is based > > only on the abhidhamma. That is the development of faculties. No > > matter how much you understand conceptually what meditation is, > > there will be no development of things like samatha and vipassana. > > In fact all the dhamma papanca would be deterimental to any one- > > pointedness of mind which might be present. > >D: Agreed. M: When you say that you agree,do you feel that factors, other than panna needs to be developed as well? D: conceptual > meditation is what is often referred to as "formal > meditation" in dsg, viz., sit quietly in a corner, eyes closed, > directing the attention to a particular object. Real > meditation would then be the actual moments when there is development > (bhavana) of satipatthana or insight. M: Oh I see what you mean. You mean moments of direct experiencing being 'real' meditating (as in vipassana) and experiencing concepts as in samatha or dhamma study being conceptual. > > M: ..and being in a calm envioronment has specific implications for > > training: > > Overcoming of the five hindrances > > "As soon, brahman, as he is possessed of mindfulness and clear > > consciousness, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come > > you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a > > tree, on a mountain slope, in a glen, a hill cave, a cemetery, a > > woodland grove, in the open, or on a heap of straw.' > > > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > > Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm D: The Buddha is clearly telling him to go to the forest etc.-- > as soon as he possesses mindfulness and full awareness > (BB). Tell me, is this different from telling him to go to the forest > in order to develop mindfulness and full awareness? And > why what is his job in the forest? Cultivation of jhana. We are in > agreement that Buddha sometimes exhorted his disciples > with methods, techniques, instructions for cultivation of samatha. > But what of satipatthana? "Come, bhikkhu, be possessed of > mindfulness and full awareness (satisampajañña). Act in full > awareness when going forward and returning..."(MN 107:7 [BB]). > So, before "go to a secluded place...", there is "be possessed of > satisampajañña." Without the satisampajañña, there is no > path. Sure, there may be jhana (which, in the time of Buddha, had > already long been practiced outside the dispensation) and > there may be sila (which is widely practiced by a good chunk of the > people in most cultures) but no walking the path. What > > the KS and DSGers emphasize so strongly is that whatever the practice > is satisampajañña/satipatthana are essential to > development of wisdom (bhavana), and that, regardless of the > particular object, satipatthana implies clear understanding of > the distinction between percept and concept at the present moment > (e.g., see MN 1). M: You agree that the buddha asked his disciples to go to the forest to reduce the five hindrences,and develop jhana. I agree with what you say above as well. My point is that what is described in that ganakamoggallana sutta is that the Buddha was describing a gradual path. Which means starting out with things like sense restraint, sila, etc which are found in any religious practice. These are conditions for the establishment of the four foundations of mindfulnes. The satipattaana sutta starts by saying that the monk abandoning desire and distress with regards to the world goes ont to do the satipattana practice. So there is a form of preparatory practice and satipattana cannot arise suddenly. Look at this sutta: Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. M: Development of jhana fits in well with the first path. Another sutta sees the Buddha saying if a monk knows samatha, I will teach him vipassana, and vice versa (samadhi sutta/AN). So jhana which is found in other religions as well can be used as a preparatory method for developing the four foundations of mindfulness and is useful even further along the path as we see below: "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/ an04-094.html What is described above is intentional practice. Both Samatha and vipassana are essential, and it is repeated theme. Also if we consider the five faculties they lead forwards sadda-- >viriaya-->sat-->samadhi-->panna. So samadhi, a calm mind, is an important condition for the development of panna, and thereafter: "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. D: Without that clear understanding, it is > very easy to confuse not only paramattha and concept, but > also "meditation" with bhavana, fruits of concentration for fruits > of insight, ........ .........> lead astray; it can take years or decades to even get an inkling that> a practice is generating more mana and lobha than > panya. That being said, the KS- respecting DSGers you like to rail > against do not utter any anti- meditation words but strongly > emphasize the importance of understanding reality as it is now and in > describing reality. The idea is not that it is wrong to > sit quietly in the corner, legs crossed, etc. In fact, such activity > may bring many benefits, but as the satipatthana sutta > so brilliantly illustrates, it is not the particular activity that > one is engaged in that constitutes 'bhavana' but the > inclination of the mind. M: Well I think the commentaries wouldnt agree with the KS interpretation of bhavana. There is samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana and both are essential. The problems you mention are only present with poor instruction. Disciples of the buddha were seperated over vast distances in distant forests. Some even commited suicide due to poor understanding of ashubha bhaavana even while the Buddha was in the area. Yet, the buddha never went back on the absolute importance of both samatha and vipassana. Yes, if there is poor teaching there will be problems. Yes, proper understanding is very important. Yes, samatha is not direct understanding. There can be direct understanding without samatha - No I think that would be very difficult. To drop samatha is to drop the path from the conventional to the ultimate. > > D:Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > > > > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." M: I think you are thinking of only the satipattana perhaps. Clearly the dhammas are appearing every moment. You dont need to be anywhere special. But to be able to see it, you do need to be somewhere special - atleast have the proper samadhi development to be able to do so. If you consider a path without samadhi- your points are valid. But samatha and vipassana are essential. > > > > 'Then venerable Va?sa said this stanza to venerable ?nda: > > > > My mind is burning with sensual greed, > > > > I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify > > my > > > > mind? > > > > (?nda:)> > > > Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception> > > > Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed > > > > Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a > self.> > > > Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again.> > > > Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point. > > > > Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with > > > > disgust > > > > Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to > > measure. > > > > Thus overcoming measuring live appeased. > D: > I'm uncomfortable commenting on this passage because I don't know> where it lives in Tipitaka and can't cross-check the Pali > > or other translations or read the larger context. M: you can find it here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta- Nikaya/Samyutta1/08-Vangisa-Thera-Samyutta/01-Vangisavaggo-e.htm > > >D: Exhortation, yes, clearly. > > > Method? Purification ritual? No. > > > > M: Definition of exhortation: 'a communication intended to urge or > > persuade the recipients to take some action' > > > > wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn > > > > M: Yes, the Buddha is asking this man to take some action - it is > > part of a method (see the above link for the ganakamoggallana > > sutta). That method is called the Gradual training. > > > > "It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual > > doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, > > > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > > Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm > > > > Note: 'Training', 'doing', 'practice'. This is far from conceptual. > > If anyone doesnt believe this (or believe it is possible), then I'm > > afraid they are stuck deep down in an wrong view. Not even the > > commentaries would agree with such a thing. It is a corruption. > D: > The conventional notions of training, doing, practice are conceptual,> i.e., there is the idea that there is a person who > > thinks, "I will do such and such activities in order to acheive such> and such result," that there is a person who does such > > and such activities in order to acheive such and such results. That> is purely conceptual and it is "ritual". M: Well if we do a conceptual thing like slamming a knife on your fingers, they will be sliced off. It will be reflected in the absolute with exquisite panna! To say that something cant be done because it is conceptual is to mixup and confuse the conceptual and the absolute. A sure sign of book knowledge IMO Im sorry to say. If the buddha said these things, then they are valid. You cant theorise them away. Yes he was talking conceptually, and all humans do when they wish to communicate normally. But what is thought of and done conceptually 'ultimately' reflects in the paramatta. This division KS brings into the dhamma is an extra, an unneccessary addition. The buddha never used it, possibly because of its potiential for confusion (i am reminded of the times he kept quiet on the subject of anataa because otherwise he would have confused the listener). I dont think KS has been that discriminating. > > A few questions: > 1. Did Buddha teach ritual as the means or vehicle to liberation? > I don't think so. In fact, he taught that adherence to ritual was a > fetter to broken. Thus, it would seem strange to read Satipatthana > sutta as a list of prescribed practices [rituals]. > > "...a monk having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an > empty hut, sits down cross-legged, his body erect and his mindfulness > alert. Just mindful he breates in..." -- this is a description, Erik. > A prescription would read more like this: "...to establish > mindfulness, you should go to the forest, sit down cross-legged, and > practice noting the breath." There is a world of difference, and it > is not at all subtle. M: Look at the sutta below: "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-063.html M: I'm sorry -but 'I will remain focused' is pretty clear. 'you should then train yourself thus' is also clear. This is not a description, it is a way of doing something. its necessary to turn it into a description only to fit into the KS theory, not otherwise. Whats more this is not just sutta knowledge either, I know this works with experience. That is why I say it with confidence, but of course you do not have to believe me on that. > An aside... My meditation teachers have been firm believers in > practice, practice, practice and suspicious of book reading. Despite > the admonitions about books, I snuck a peek at the Satipatthana sutta > after one of my first intensive meditation retreats (must have been > 1988 or 1989). I creeped into the library and found > Nyanaponika's "Heart of Buddhist Meditation" and opened up to chapter > 3 -- The Four Objects of Mindfulness. Nyanaponika discusses the > Satipatthana sutta as 'instructions for practice.' I thought, "Cool! > A little more detail about what my teachers have been talking about! > A little more elaborate than the austere explanations my teachers > gave, but basically the same..." Then I read the sutta itself: "...a > monk having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty > hut, sits down cross-legged, his body erect and his mindfulness > alert. Just mindful he breates in..." At first I was incredulous that > anyone could read this as instructions because the clear sense was > descriptive without any imperative sense of "do this." "Besides," I > thought, "It looks like his mindfulness was already alert when he sat > down." M: Yes of course. The mind has been prepared. When there is samadhi the mind does not waver and run into the past or the future. It remains solidly in the present. The other stages which are mentioned -long breath, short breath, the body of the breath etc are all stages of relaxation. I say this from experience. The breath stops when this relaxation is very high for a period of time and this is mentioned in the sutta. This is only possible with intentional sati. No one full of defilements is going to accidentally walk into a forest, sit at the foot of a tree, and accidentally go through all these stages. That is impossible. It is only possible intentionally. D: For a moment there was the thought that Nyanaponika and my > teachers had to be misinterpreting the sutta because it didn't look > at all like an instruction manual to me. But my faith in my teachers > was stronger than my intuition that there was a mismatch between the > text and their interpretation, so I accepted their interpretation > ("They must have special insight into Pali and ancient Indian culture > to be able to see that this sutta is an instruction manual") and > ignored the sutta for many years because it was so difficult to > square its plain meaning with the instruction manual interpretation. > Besides, I had no idea where to go next or what to do if it wasn't an > instruction manual. After being back at practice, practice, practice > for a few more years, a teacher recommended studying the Satipatthana > sutta as an instruction manual. I gave it a shot, but it was quite > daunting. I found it hard enough to master the one or two techniques > I'd been working so hard on for so many years. "Now I'm confronted > with dozens more practices to do! Ai-yo! It can't be done!" M: Im truly sorry for this experience. Maybe there will come a day when meditation masters are actually supposed to know what to teach and how to teach it dependaing on the person. When they have enough mastery over sutta/dhamma to know that they wont lead poor helpless meditators who come in faith, astray. We are still truly in the dark ages with this. Quite apart from the dhamma I also noticed you used the term 'Ai- yo!'. Its a term used in sri lanka for the same purpose that you have. Can I ask you where you are from? :) D:> 2. Are some rituals helpful in the development of panya, while others > are not? M: There is samadhi, there is sati -all is set. Then all you have to do is watch dhammas arising and passing away. Panna will arise with time. I dont agree that satipattana is a ritual. As it clearly says sati (vipassana) has to be maitained right through the day, through all actions. If it is done properly, nama-rupa will be differentiated. Causality will be discerend. tilakkana will be realised. We have trained hundreds of people in this and I can say without a doubt that it works. But it all depends that you dont turn it into samatha. If you do all is lost. It all depends on where your sati is. > An analogy: The case of joyous laughter > > Description: "A bhikkhu abiding in joyous laughter tilts his head > back and with a twinkle in his eye turns up the corners of > > his mouth and lets forth a joyous sound." > > Prescription (or instruction): "To laugh joyously, tilt your head > back, produce a twinkle in your eye, turn up the corners of > > your mouth and let forth a joyous sound." M: I thin i already showed you the 'should' in it. Besides if you say 'to eat the monk puts food in his mouth' isnt it clear that that is the way to eat and not otherwise? > Satipatthana is the state of mind of one ardently contemplating the > body as a body, feelings as feelings, mind as mind, or > mind-objects as mind-objects. It is a fully-aware state of mind in > which covetousness and grief for the world does not arise. > With sati having thus been established, the bhikkhu advances toward > the Truth, toward the realisation of Nibbana; and > therefore satipatthana is referred to as a path. The path is direct > and straight. But it is also narrow. Very narrow. Very > difficult to stay on. > > It may seem strange to think in terms of the satipatthana sutta in > terms of descriptions instead of instructions, but the > > most straightforward reading of the words is as description. Some > might object that "if the sutta is just description, it > > doesn't give us anything concrete to DO, so it MUST be prescriptive. > What good would a description be?!" The short answer is > > that it teaches us how to distinguish between what is and what is not > the path. M: Well since nothing in that list is not going to happen without intention (you are not going to be accintally mindful in everything you do), it is indeed a way to distinguish what is path and not.ie - if you arent doing it/or if you like, if it isnt happening to you, you have got it wrong. The bottom line is, its not going to happen to you. You will have to do it. D:> improperly for years and years (or decades) and not understand > namarupapareccha or udabhaya by the end. M: Actually if you prepare the mind porperly and do the practice properly, you can reach the two you mentioned above in two weeks. I have seen it done. I know those who did it in seven days very rarely as well. The Buddha was acurate and I know this beyond a shadow of doubt. on the otherhand what is the alternative? book study in hope that it will happen automactically? That will take more than a few lifetimes. A major obstacle is > the reading of them as instructions rather than descriptions of the > arising of bhavana. When the words are properly > > understood as descriptive, then the characteristics present moment > can be recognized and the idea of "a self that practices > > to attain" is gradually worn down. M: What understanding is there with no direct knowledge? What about the self the tries to gather knowledge in hopes of attaining? ------------------------- --------------------------- Dan, Im sorry but its late and i dont think i want to answer any more of the email as it has taken 3 hours already. So im leaving the rest of it below, as it is. From this friday i will be in sri lanka so i will not be able to reply unfortunately. I hope you will find whatever works for you in the dhamma wishing you the best of luck matheesha ------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- 54275 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... Hi Rob M., All, In a message dated 1/3/2006 3:35:58 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and disappearance condition (#23) as being the same. The absence of the sun contributes to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the appearing of darkness; the death of a king contributes to the enthronement of his eldest son; so one can contribute to something by being absent. When a citta and its cetasikas pass away, they create a condition for the immediately following citta and its cetasikas to arise. The conditioning / conditioned states for absence / disappearance condition are the same as the conditioning / conditioned states for proximity / contiguity condition. TG: Re: The absence of the sun contributes to the appearance of the moon??? ... generally speaking the opposite is of course true. The moon is seen by the light generated from the sun. I could go on and on and on about how the sun is a required condition for the moon to be seen in so many different ways...for sustaining life on Earth for example. But lets get on to other things. If we grant the "citta" theory as a basis for discussion, a relatively generous grant IMO: -- the falling away of a citta as a cause/condition for the next citta is a necessary state but a very incomplete explanation of the arising of the "new" present citta. (James is right -- there is no significant difference between cause and condition.) Here's an analogy that I think fits. Let's suppose I drive to a restaurant for dinner. In order for me to eat that dinner, literally millions of conditions need to occur. The weather needs to be fair enough, hundreds of car parts need to function properly. The suppliers of gasoline from around the world must have done their jobs. The energy from the sun must be present, the entire ecological system needs to be structured and inter-dependently function. I had to of been educated -- taught to drive, taught to eat, taught to dress, etc. I had to acquired money somehow: presumable by having a job the required more millions of supporting conditions for the business, etc. The employees of the restaurant need to show up to work, the suppliers of the food need to make sure food is there. The electricity needs to be working. This is the real short list of conditions! Now the analogy...with all of this going on, let's imagine all the tables are busy. Then, one table opens up due to the departure of customers. It is primarily THIS "departure of customers" that is similar to one citta ending so that there is "room" for the next citta to arise. True enough it is necessary, but it is so inconsequential to the overall constellation of necessary conditions, that to point to that as THE CONDITION that allowed me to eat dinner, is ridiculous. To make a long story short, conditions #4 & #5 look at things from one perspective while conditions #22 & #23 look at the same thing from the opposite perspective. They are describing the exact same thing... one citta follows another. You have also raised the topic of Dependent Origination (DO). Whereas the 24 conditions are gneral rules, DO is a special sequence of relationships used to explain how we are bound to samsara. In the Suttas, the Buddha talked about DO but not all the 24 conditions because the purpose of the Buddha's teaching is to free us from samsara, not to provide a comprehensive map of the laws of nature. TG: I thought I had just finished getting you to concede that DO was more than JUST the 12 fold chain? DO is a principle ... and the 12 Fold Chain cannot, IMO, be understood without deeply penetrating the principle of DO. When it is understood that this principle applies to every experience... then no-self, impermanence, and suffering are all seen as attributes of the same thing...i.e., conditionality. “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma;* one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.â€? (Attributed to the Buddha by Venerable Sariputta . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 283, The Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Greater), Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, #28.) I strongly disagree about the "laws of nature" comment. It is precisely THE BUDDHA'S TEACHING that makes seeing the laws of nature possible. Whether or not Abhidhamma makes any contribution to clarifying the laws of nature is problematic! For every step forward Abhidhamma might make, it might make two steps backward. It depends on how it is interpreted. I agree that the Buddha's purpose in teaching is to help us overcome suffering, this does not diminish that he taught the laws of nature as the requisite means of insight to get rid of the suffering. Each of the links of DO has a relationship with the previous link and the subsequent link which can be described as a set of conditions. The only link of DO which involves conditions #4, #5, #22 & #23 is the first link - Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102-103 for details]. There are many conditions at work simultaneously. For example, the sixteen conditions at work when delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) - part of the first link of DO - are: - Root: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object: When one is deluded into thinking that delusion is a happy state - Object Predominance / Decisive Support of Object: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity / Contiguity: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence / Non-Disappearance: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence / Disappearance: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Sorry for being so long-winded :-) Metta, Rob M :-) I always enjoy your stuff Rob M. ! TG 54276 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... Hi Howard, All, In a message dated 1/3/2006 7:53:02 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: D.O., the general scheme and the origin-and-cessation-of-suffering applications are indeed stated in terms of arising --> arising, and cessation --> cessation. But while the the Buddha did teach such, he didn't say that is the whole of it. Also, and I think this is rather important, what is considered positive and what is considered negative is often a matter of selection. Is the arising of wisdom different or the same as the cessation of ignorance? What if 'ignorance' has a positive grammatical form and 'wisdom' a negative one? Does 'equanimous' = 'unshakable'? There are so many words and concepts of this sort, are there not? Also, with regard to the citta theory, I don't think there is a claim that the cessation of one citta is *the* cause of the next, but only that it is one of the requisite conditions for the next. On the assumption that two cittas cannot co-exist, would not one have to cease in order for another to arise? It's cessation wouldn't be sufficient, but it sure would be necessary. Is it possible you are attacking a straw man here? TG: Your above paragraph more or less concedes that Abhidhamma does not address the causes for the progression of cittas. Only one condition. If cittas have a sequential one by one arising pattern, than for me, it must be more like a string of dominos knocking one down and then the next. In that case, its a "positive" force that is responsible for the "movement" and progression of the flow. If one domino in the string did not contact the next, or merely disappeared, the flow would end. Abhidhamma is not addressing the "force" that continues the progression and that really is the most important point. To say that "the absence" of something is "driving the flow" is an error IMO. If by "straw man" you mean "Abhidhamma citta theory," then I guess the answer is yes. ;-) TG 54277 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 5:06pm Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Rob M., > > Rob M: Long time no chat!!! > > James: Yes, nice to chat with you. Hope you are doing well in > Malaysia. You have given me quite a lot to chew on here! I was > just making an off-the-cuff post, I didn't know it would inspire > such a lengthy response. I hesitate to respond, because I am quite > busy at the moment and don't have a lot of time, but I will give it > my best shot. My replies will be brief. ===== Life is good! If you don't have time to reply, that is okay. In the past (and probably again in the future), I have left unfinished threads because demands on my time overtook my good intentions. I just send a post to Joop and yourself which included the comment: "I think that we can simplify proximity, contiguity, absence and disappearance conditions into one sentence, "Cittas arise sequentially and there can only be one at a time." That is the essence of my message. ===== > > Rob M: Proximity condition and contiguity condition (#4 and #5) are > considered to be the same. > > James: Well, that's not very helpful of the Patthana. It doesn't > make much sense to name two conditions which are really the same ;- > )) (just a side comment). ===== Agreed, the Suttas and Abhidhamma are never short of repetition :-) ===== > > Rob M: Proximity and contiguity mean without separation in time > (immediacy) and space (closeness). When a King dies or renounces the > throne, his eldest son becomes King without any interruption in the > lineage of monarchy. Thus we can say that the King helps his eldest > son to become King by proximity condition (case of death) or by > contiguity condition (case of renunciation). > > James: Okay, I'm following you, but this doesn't seem to be a direct > type of conditioning. The king dies so the son becomes the king. > What if the king didn't have a son? What if the son renounces the > kingship? This seems to me to be a very loose and indirect type of > conditioning- not like what the Buddha taught: When this arises, > that arises; with the ceasing of this, that ceases. Here we have a > more direct conditioning (at least in my mind). ===== I think that the idea here is that in one country, there is only one person who can hold the title of king at a time. So there is an element of exclusivity; in a similar way there is only one citta at a time. Though the analogy is a bit loose (it is possible for a country to have no king for a period), there is also an implication of continuity - the stopping of one person being named king is a condition for another person being named king. ===== > > Rob M: Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and > conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated > cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has > not fallen away, there can be only one citta at a time. The > preceding citta is the condition for the arising of the subsequent > citta (the > conditioned dhamma). > > James: You are just restating the theory. How is it that one citta > falling away conditions the arising of the next citta? Your > previous metaphor of the king doesn't work here, we aren't supposed > to have extra cittas waiting in the wings to take the place of the > cittas which have disappeared, do we? We are talking one citta > completely disappearing and then another arising from the ashes or > something of the previous citta. The theory reminds of the myth of > the Phoenix or Jesus rising from the dead. ===== You are absolutely correct. I am simply restating the theory. The Patthana simply states that the falling away of one citta is a condition for the arising of the subsequent citta. It is an observation, it is not an explanation of how or why. As an analogy, Newton's law of gravity does not explain why gravity exists nor why gravity functions. What if we rephrased the analogy into, "a person with the title of king must stop existing to allow a new person with the title of king to exist"? Here we are talking about a "person with the title of king"; so this perhaps addresses your concern about "waiting in the wings". ===== > > Rob M: For proximity and contiguity conditions, the conditioning > state is the preceding 89 cittas (excluding cuti-citta of Arahant) > and their > associated 52 cetasikas. The conditioned state is the succeeding 89 > cittas (including cuti-citta of Arahant) and their associated 52 > cetasikas. > > James: There is no way I could verify this for myself so it is > meaningless to me. The Buddha taught that the dhamma should be > verified for oneself. Am I supposed to accept these numbers on > faith? ===== I am simply parroting the texts. I really have no idea if there are 88, 89, 90 or some other number of cittas. ===== > > Rob M: The Patthana also lists absence condition (#22) and > disappearance condition (#23) as being the same. > > James: Well, that Patthana just can't make up its mind! ;-)) > > Rob M: The absence of the sun contributes > to the appearing of the moon; the absence of light contributes to the > appearing of darkness; the death of a king contributes to the > enthronement of his eldest son; so one can contribute to something by > being absent. > > James: Each of these examples have both things present at the same > time. The absence of the sun doesn't make the moon suddenly come > into existence, etc. One citta is supposed to completely disappear, > cease to exist, and then another citta is supposed to suddenly > appear, when it didn't exist before. Again, your examples don't > apply to this process. ===== I agree that the examples are oversimplified, but at the end of the day, I think that we can simplify proximity, contiguity, absence and disappearance conditions into one sentence, "Cittas arise sequentially and there can only be one at a time." ===== > > RobM: When a citta and its cetasikas pass away, they create a > condition for the immediately following citta and its cetasikas to > arise. > > James: How??? Magic?? ;-)) ===== As mentioned above, the how and why are not explained, just as Newton's law of gravity does not explain how or why gravity exists. ===== > > Rob M: To make a long story short, conditions #4 & #5 look at things > from one perspective while conditions #22 & #23 look at the same > thing from the opposite perspective. They are describing the exact > same thing... one citta follows another. > > James: Well, I don't see how they describe that. The only way that > would be possible is if you believe the Yogacarans (I think) who > posit that the past, present, and future all exist in the present > moment. ===== Oops we have a problem... Fundamentally, these four conditions are only used to describe the fact that one citta follows another and that there can only be one at a time. Gotta run... Metta, Rob M :-) 54278 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 5:15pm Subject: Vism.XIV,214 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 214. 2. 'As to distinction': as to the distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, 'aggregates' is said without distinguishing. 'Aggregates [as objects] of clinging' is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to the clingings, according as it is said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen ... And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Any kind of materiality whatever, bhikkhus, whether past, future or present ... far or near: this is called materiality aggregate. Any kind of feeling whatever ... Any kind of perception whatever ... Any kind of formations whatever ... Any kind of consciousness whatever ... far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates. And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever ... far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to the clingings: this is called the materiality aggregate [as object] of clinging. Any kind of feeling whatever ... Any kind of perception whatever ... Any kind of formations whatever ... Any kind of consciousness whatever ... far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to the clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S.iii,47). ************************ 214. visesatoti khandhaana~nca upaadaanakkhandhaana~nca visesato. ko pana nesa.m viseso, khandhaa taava avisesato vuttaa. upaadaanakkhandhaa saasavaupaadaaniyabhaavena visesetvaa. yathaaha -- ``pa~nca ceva vo bhikkhave khandhe desessaami pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhe ca, ta.m su.naatha. katame ca bhikkhave pa~ncakkhandhaa, ya.mki~nci bhikkhave ruupa.m atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna.m...pe0... santike vaa, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave ruupakkhandho. yaa kaaci vedanaa...pe0... ya.mki~nci vi~n~naa.na.m...pe0... santike vaa, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave vi~n~naa.nakkhandho. ime vuccanti bhikkhave pa~ncakkhandhaa. katame ca bhikkhave pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa. ya.mki~nci bhikkhave ruupa.m...pe0... santike vaa saasava.m upaadaaniya.m, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave ruupupaadaanakkhandho. yaa kaaci vedanaa...pe0... ya.mki~nci vi~n~naa.na.m...pe0... santike vaa saasava.m upaadaaniya.m, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave vi~n~naa.nupaadaanakkhandho. ime vuccanti bhikkhave pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa´´ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.48). 54279 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/3/06 7:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... wrote, while in a rush to get to a choir meeting (really!): > I don't think the neral matter has a simple, single answer. =================== neral = general (LOLOL!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54280 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Joop and Scott, ... > In his first meeting with King Milinda, Nagasena explained that what > is conventionally called chariot is really an assembly of smaller > parts. Chariot is a concept, a convention, an agreed-upon description > of a collection of parts (which is why all chariots do not look or > act the same, yet still carry the same name). > > In my opinion, memory is a concept, a convention, an agreed-upon > description of a complex collection of mental processes (many series > of mental states - not a single mental state). Consciousness, mental > factors (especially sanna) and conditions (especially natural > decisive support condition) all play a role. Rupa plays a role in > memory in the same way it plays a role in all consciousness; as > a "support" for the mental state. However, rupa does not play a role > in physical storage. Consider people remembering past lives... how > can that memory be stored in rupa as there is no link between the > rupa of the past existence and the rupa of this existence? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Dear Rob, Joop, I agree that there is no actual "physical storage" when it comes to the role of rupa in memory. Isn't storage as much a concept as memory? In fact, aren't they considered synonymous (depending on how you construe memory to function in the brain?) Some recent neuroscientists (Edelman, I'm thinking of) consider memory to be non-representational (hence "unstored") but very much a function of the dynamics of the rupa-support in complex neural networks. As to what the factor may be which allows for a complex arising within consciousness called "remembering past lives," I have no clue. Peace, Scott. 54281 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 6:58pm Subject: Re: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year buddhistmedi... Friends Htoo and Matheesha - Let me answer you both in this post. >Matheesha: Is this a custom where you come from? (meditating entering into the newyear?) ..and If you dont mind me asking, where do you come from orginally? :) Tep: I came from Thailand (30 years ago). Yes, several Thai Buddhist temples have that tradition of meditating before the midnight and "entering into the new year". ........................ >Htoo: >Jhana is monotonous life. Take this object. Then take this object which is exactly the same. Then take the same object again and again. This is why beginners in Jhaana practice do not acquire jhaana easily. >Sammaa-samaadhi is coming soon under Dhamma Thread. I hope you will discuss again there. Tep: Any life is full with monotonies (more or less) -- of course, the life of a secluded monk has more of tiresome sameness. There are many displeasures in a monk's holy life and both jhana and vipassana are useful for overcoming the displeasure [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta : "If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome displeasure, and not be overcome by displeasure. May I dwell having conquered any displeasure that has arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings".] Training for a world championship of any kind is similar to routine samatha meditation (for stillness or one-pointedness of non-distracted mind that is guarded inward). But there is no fun in vipassana either. To me vipassana is not for the sake of change -- it is for insight development. Yes, I hope to discuss "samma-samadhi" with you soon. Thanks for inviting. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Changes and monotony. > > Sometimes people like changes. Sometimes they like monotonous life that is they do not want to be disturbed. > >(snipped) 54282 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 7:17pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I understand your kusala cetana very well. But people are different with regard to their individual ways of presenting a fact. As long as your readers accept that the fact is always accurate, direct and useful, then they will not mind. > > > > Tep: Yes. Your perception of what happened before was accurate. > > > > But after having read Nina's latest posts, what do you think of > your above prediction? I think Nina's answer to Howard's question is > pretty direct this time. Accumulation still plays the most important role, > > though. >James: > I agree with you. I think that her subsequent posts, after this > harsh post of mine, were much more direct and to the point. It is > okay to admit the limits of the Abhidhamma, or the limits of one's > personal knowledge, rather than raising a snow storm. I hope my > post conditioned the more forthcoming follow-up posts (though I got > another moderator warning off-list ;-)). > Tep: It is obvious that your "harsh post" has got some attention! But I have also observed that Howard and Matheesha (for example) have their unique styles that are both gentle and effective, and they have got attention from Nina too. Warm regards, Tep ========= 54283 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: <..> > > Session 1 > > 1. Read the following from Nina's book `Abhidhamma in Daily Life' again > and again and ask questions to the group or raise any points on it for > further discussion/reflection: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm > > >THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS > There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical > phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience > anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible > object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. > What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. <...> > ======= >Dear Sarah, Is school in? I have a question regarding rupa. What exactly does it mean when it is said that rupa "arises?" I gather that the continuity we think we see is "illusion" and therefore, does this imply that if we were to see it as it is it would be much less continuous? Rupa is parattha dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are prone to seeing it? Thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 54284 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, All, > > Thanks for your posts. Although sanna has been elucidated, and I mean > as a concept, when trying to take a microscopic look at it (as I guess > I may be attempting - as for example in what is the "marking" process) > the task becomes difficult as sanna is imbedded in a dynamic, complex > whole. > > I think that the added concept of "accumulations" is an interesting > one. In my less than informed view, accumulations are like marks in a > way, this sanna-like connecting process which extends beyond a single > life time, I guess in both temporal directions. ++++++++ Dear Scott, Accumulation has several different pali terms. One of them is áyúhana The Mahavagga tika (subcommentary) to the Digha nikaya explains:(Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho. Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. (sampi.n.dana.m -adding together rasi - heap kicca -function Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for deep insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. And if that was too dense here is an old post I wrote about acumulations: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49777 Robertk 54285 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 8:39pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: >> > ======= > >Dear Sarah, > > Is school in? > > I have a question regarding rupa. What exactly does it mean when it > is said that rupa "arises?" I gather that the continuity we think we > see is "illusion" and therefore, does this imply that if we were to > see it as it is it would be much less continuous? Rupa is parattha > dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are > prone to seeing it? > > Thanks for your consideration. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. ________ Dear Scott, Rupa is very ephemeral. It arises and passes away millions of times in a split second- but because of continuity there is illusion of something lasting. The earth we walk on is not as solid and lasting as we might think. Robert > 54286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Hi Math (& Dan), I think you’ve had an excellent discussion and I’m sure many people have appreciated reflecting on all the comments. I’m not surprised that it took you so long to respond to the first part of Dan’s last message – it was a 12 page action-packed ‘Roar’:-). Seriously, I think it’s well worth printing out and reflecting over further on the flight to Sri Lanka. Perhaps you’ll return with the energy and inspiration to reply to the second half! In any case, thank you both. Math, when do you come back? Have a good trip! A couple of quick points: 1. You were discussing ‘Method’. Are you familiar with this sutta? SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl] “Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu -apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being’?” S: To read more, see U.P. under ‘Method’. Here’s one post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31984 (Also see more at the end of this post). 2. I also liked Dan’s point that the absence of avijja is not the same as insight. In deep sleep, there is no avijja arising, but no kusala cittas either!! I’d put it the other way round in that when a light is shone in a room, the darkness disappears. 3. Cetana (intention) qu- also see under ‘Cetana’ in U.P. Here’s one post if you’re too busy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28135 4. Math, your ‘Listening’ post #54136 was excellent and I also appreciated your help to a new member with one his references #54161. I have another, but I’ve been too busy to respond. (We’re spending about 3 hrs a day on editing of recordings and then there’s the reading of your discussions with Dan!!). 5. In a post to me, #54155 you refer to the characteristics of panna and a tree and to how they are both ‘sankata dhammas’. With respect, panna is a reality with a characteristic which can be known. It is a sankhata dhamma which arises and falls away. ‘Tree’ in only ever a concept without any reality. On the other hand, hardness is real, visible object is real....You can imagine a tree, but only touch hardness, for example. 6. Same message – panna and associated eightfold path factors which eradicate defilements. No self to do it. Even kusala cetana is not a path factor. See back to ‘Method’ sutta above. By the way, from the sutta you quoted which said ‘Clear knowing is the leader in the attainment of skillful qualities’. You kindly corrected me and said the ‘clear knowing’ was vijja and not panna in Pali. Of course, they are the same cetasika – vijja, panna, samma ditthi. 7. Same message – You say that ‘the Buddha says as we go higher and higher in the path there is less and less dukkha’. Do you have a reference for this? What kind of dukkha are you talking about? Could the Buddha avoid dukkha? I think this is an important point to discuss more on your return as you refer to this theme several times. Also you say that ‘if you were serious about the path, that (i.e ordaining) is what you did.’ Does this mean that those who didn’t ordain like Anathapindika or Visakkha or the countless other lay disciples, were not ‘serious’ about the path? Can one become a sotapanna without being ‘serious’ about it? 8. Thanks, Math, for you kind comments to me about ‘dhamma dana’. I’d like to say the same to you. There is a lot of dana involved in your ‘sharing’ threads and in all the sutta quotes you provide, especially as you’re so busy with your demanding work and students too. 9. As you put in your post to Charles #54098, ‘aanantarika-kamma’. Nyantiloka translates as ‘the 5 heinous ‘actions with immediate destiny’ ‘, i.e patricide, matricide, killing an arahant, wounding a Buddha, creating a schism in the Order. (see more under ‘Anantarika’ in the dict. 10. Interesting point in your post to Tep about forgetfulness and the 5 hindrances. If you come across the sutta you had in mind, pls share it. Perhaps the forgetfulness refers to forgetfulness of dhammas or lack of awareness rather than conventional forgetfulness? The arahants at the 1sst Council had perfect recollection of what they’d heard, no hindrances. Interesting area. 11. Happier in this lifetime (#54055)...hmmm....I’d like to quote some of those suttas on the Two Kinds of Happiness from AN. In the commentaries there’s a note about those without understanding having more pleasant feeling or happiness. Why? More lobha. ***** S: OK, that’s it for this ‘burst’. I just wished to ‘catch’ you before you left and to wish you a good trip. I presume you’ll be returning to your temple and teacher in Sri Lanka? I’ll look forward to more of your discussions and reflections on your return. Metta, Sarah ==== “There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith.....apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it - can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth....there is no more for this state of being.’ And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: “There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?” “No, venerable sir.” “Aren’t these things to be undeerstood by seeing them with wisdom?" (dhammà pa~n~nàya disvà veditabbàti) “Yes, venerable sir.” “This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth..there is no more for this state of being.’ “Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear....Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internallly..........etc’ <....> “This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu - apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it- can declare final knowledge thus: “Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” ***** 54287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 11:17pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 350 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] In the Abhidhamma realities are classified in numerous ways. In the Third Book of the Dhammasangaùi akusala dhammas have been classified in different groups. The study of these different classifications can help us to see the danger of akusala. However, in order to really know our defilements we should be aware of them when they appear. For example, we know in theory that there is clinging to visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and to mental objects, but when there is mindfulness we learn that even now, after a moment of seeing or a moment of hearing, attachment can arise and that it is bound to arise again and again. Defilements are not merely abstract categories, they are realities which can appear at any time and there are many more moments of them than we ever thought. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54288 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 10:21pm Subject: The Deathless Dimension ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Final Safe State of supreme unified Bliss neither Changes nor Decays! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said to his monks: I will teach you the uncorrupted state, & the way to the uncorrupted state... Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth, & the way leading to this absolute truth... I will teach you the far shore ... the subtle ... the sublime ... the very difficult to see ... the unageing ... the stable ... the safe ... the undisintegrating ... the undecaying state ... the unmanifested ... the unproliferated ... the unclinging ... the untroubled silence ... the peaceful ... the supreme bliss ... the fortunate ... the wonderful ... the amazing ... the cooled craving ... disillusion ... purity ... freedom ... the island ... the shelter ... the assured asylum ... the final refuge ... the deathless destination ... Nibbana... Listen and pay alert attention to that, which can lead you to lasting happiness!!! And what, bhikkhus is this Nibbana... ? The absence of all Greed, the stilling of all Hate, & the clearance of all Ignorance: This is called the uncorrupted state of Nibbana... And what, bhikkhus, is the very good way leading to this undying state of Nibbana... ? Awareness of the body as just a heap of organs is a way to this uncorrupted state ... The four foundations of awareness is a way to this absolute truth ... Serene calm and profound insight is a way to this the far shore ... Absorption into concentrated directed thought & sustained examination is a way... Absorption into emptiness, into signlessness, and into the uninclined is a way... The four right efforts is a way to this the very difficult to see ... The four roads to force is a way to this supreme bliss ... The five pure abilities is a way to this purity ... The five pure powers is a way to this freedom ... The seven links to awakening is a way to this peace ... The Noble 8-fold Way is a way to this deathless destination ... These are ways leading to this Nibbana... I have now taught you the Nibbana... and the way leading to this Nibbana... Whatever should be done, bhikkhus, by a considerate teacher out of sympathy for his disciples, wishing their sole welfare, that I have now done for you. There are roots of trees, bhikkhus, there are empty huts. Meditate, do not neglect your meditation, bhikkhus, otherwise you may come to bitterly regret it later. This is our instruction to you... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [369-73] Section 43: On The Unconsctructed. The way to the uninclined: 13-44. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 nilovg Dear Scott, op 04-01-2006 04:35 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: >> >>> THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS >> There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical >> phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience >> anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible >> object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. >> What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. What exactly does it mean when it is said that rupa "arises?" ------- Rupa arises because there are several conditioning factors that associate so that a particular kind of rupa arises. For example, visible object or colour is a rupa that is experienced by seeing. This rupa needs the support of other rupas such as solidity, cohesion, heat and motion that arise together with it. It falls away, but so long as there are conditions it is replaced and therefore we interprete what is seen as something lasting. What we take for our body consists of many kinds of rupas that originate from kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. Rupas outside such as what we call a rock originate only from heat. Thus, rupa arises because the appropriate condiitons are present and nobody can create rupa. --------- S: I gather that the continuity we think we > see is "illusion" and therefore, does this imply that if we were to > see it as it is it would be much less continuous? ------ N: It is developed wisdom that sees that what is taken as a mass, a whole, is in reality different elements that arise and fall away, that do not last. The Buddha taught the way of development of this wisdom, which is direct understanding of what appears now. --------- S: Rupa is parattha > dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are > prone to seeing it? -------- N: We are prone to seeing a whole, a mass. We take this whole for self or mine. The Buddha taught the truth of all dhammas that appear one at a time through the six doors. Visible object is a rupa appearing through the eyedoor. It is not a person or a thing. Sound is a rupa appearing through the ear-door. It is not someone's voice, or my voice. We think immediately of the source of the sound instead of just attending to the characteristic of sound. Awareness of the characteristics that appear, one at a time, is the way to have right understanding of paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas are different from concepts such as person or tree we can think of. It is helpful to know the difference between seeing and thinking, hearing and thinking. Does this make sense to you? Do not hesitate to ask again. Nina. > > Thanks for your consideration. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. 54290 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 2:57am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 350 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (b) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] > > In the Abhidhamma realities are classified in numerous ways. Defilements are not merely abstract categories, they are realities which > can appear at any time and there are many more moments of them than we > ever thought. > ***** > (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Question, comment, different view: I am afraid that this is not a question, not a comment and not a different view. But ... It is true. These defilements that are every day friends of beings are not abstract things. They are realities. Eyes serves as doorway to mind gate. As soon as seen mind has already read the message and defilements arise. Only training will complete the cleansing of defilements. What training? Siila, samaadhi, pannaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54291 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > If we grant the "citta" theory as a basis for discussion, a relatively > generous grant IMO: -- the falling away of a citta as a cause/condition for the > next citta is a necessary state but a very incomplete explanation of the > arising of the "new" present citta. (James is right -- there is no significant > difference between cause and condition.) ===== There are always multiple conditions at work, never just one. In a recent post, I gave the example of how ignorance conditions kammic formations and listed sixteen different conditions at work. To align on terminology, the texts use three terms: - Conditioning state ("cause") - Condition ("relationship") - Conditioned state ("effect") ===== > > Here's an analogy that I think fits. Let's suppose I drive to a restaurant > for dinner. In order for me to eat that dinner, literally millions of > conditions need to occur. The weather needs to be fair enough, hundreds of car > parts need to function properly. The suppliers of gasoline from around the > world must have done their jobs. The energy from the sun must be present, the > entire ecological system needs to be structured and inter- dependently function. > I had to of been educated -- taught to drive, taught to eat, taught to > dress, etc. I had to acquired money somehow: presumable by having a job the > required more millions of supporting conditions for the business, etc. The > employees of the restaurant need to show up to work, the suppliers of the food > need to make sure food is there. The electricity needs to be working. This is > the real short list of conditions! > > Now the analogy...with all of this going on, let's imagine all the tables > are busy. Then, one table opens up due to the departure of customers. It is > primarily THIS "departure of customers" that is similar to one citta ending so > that there is "room" for the next citta to arise. True enough it is > necessary, but it is so inconsequential to the overall constellation of necessary > conditions, that to point to that as THE CONDITION that allowed me to eat > dinner, is ridiculous. ===== I like your analogy - perhaps because it is dinner time, I am hungry and I am on a diet so I have to skip my meal :-) In your example, you gave many, many examples of "indirect conditions" that do not immediately connect to the immediate moment. The Patthana only looks at "direct" conditions. However, I believe the theme of your analogy is that to simplify things down to ONE condition is ridiculous. I agree and the Patthana agrees - there are always a number of conditions at work at any moment (I listed sixteen earlier). ===== > > > > To make a long story short, conditions #4 & #5 look at things from > one perspective while conditions #22 & #23 look at the same thing > from the opposite perspective. They are describing the exact same > thing... one citta follows another. > > You have also raised the topic of Dependent Origination (DO). Whereas > the 24 conditions are gneral rules, DO is a special sequence of > relationships used to explain how we are bound to samsara. In the > Suttas, the Buddha talked about DO but not all the 24 conditions > because the purpose of the Buddha's teaching is to free us from > samsara, not to provide a comprehensive map of the laws of nature. > > TG: I thought I had just finished getting you to concede that DO was more > than JUST the 12 fold chain? DO is a principle ... and the 12 Fold Chain > cannot, IMO, be understood without deeply penetrating the principle of DO. When > it is understood that this principle applies to every experience... then > no-self, impermanence, and suffering are all seen as attributes of the same > thing...i.e., conditionality. ===== DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. In my opinion, DO is a special sequence which is only applied to the question, "why are we bound to samsara and how do we get 'unbound'?". It is possible that I am wrong about this (would not be the first time!), please point me to a Sutta where the Buddha talked about DO in some other context. I typed out all the conditions at work as part of DO in my message # 33260 complete with references to paragraphs of Visuddhimagga. You might find that interesting. ===== > > > “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma;* one who sees the > Dhamma sees dependent origination.â€? > (Attributed to the Buddha by Venerable Sariputta . . . Middle Length > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 283, The Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Greater), > Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, #28.) > I strongly disagree about the "laws of nature" comment. It is precisely THE > BUDDHA'S TEACHING that makes seeing the laws of nature possible. Whether or > not Abhidhamma makes any contribution to clarifying the laws of nature is > problematic! For every step forward Abhidhamma might make, it might make two > steps backward. It depends on how it is interpreted. > I agree that the Buddha's purpose in teaching is to help us overcome > suffering, this does not diminish that he taught the laws of nature as the requisite > means of insight to get rid of the suffering. > ===== Because the purpose of the teaching is to help free us from samsara, DO is central to the teaching... one might even say that DO *is the teaching*. I believe that is what MN28 that you quoted above is saying. The scope Patthana is far more than DO. The Patthana covers general "laws of nature" which are not linked to DO. There are also other general "laws of nature" which are not included in the Buddha's teaching nor in the Patthana; the "law of gravity", for example. The Buddha did not discuss the law of gravity because it was outside his stated scope. There are lots of things that are outside of the scope of the Buddha's teaching - if I want to know how to travel from one city to another, I consult a roadmap not Suttas... but if I want to know how the path to free myself from samsara, I consult the Suttas. I'm not sure, but I think that I may be getting off-topic. Please reign me in.... Metta, Rob M :-) 54292 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:04am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,214 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 214. 2. 'As to distinction': as to the distinction between aggregates > and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. 214. visesatoti khandhaana~nca upaadaanakkhandhaana~nca visesato. ko > pana nesa.m viseso, khandhaa taava avisesato vuttaa. upaadaanakkhandhaa > saasavaupaadaaniyabhaavena visesetvaa. yathaaha -- > ``pa~nca ceva vo bhikkhave khandhe desessaami pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhe ca, > ta.m su.naatha. katame ca bhikkhave pa~ncakkhandhaa, ya.mki~nci > bhikkhave ruupa.m atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna.m...pe0... santike vaa, > aya.m vuccati bhikkhave ruupakkhandho. yaa kaaci vedanaa...pe0... > ya.mki~nci vi~n~naa.na.m...pe0... santike vaa, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave > vi~n~naa.nakkhandho. ime vuccanti bhikkhave pa~ncakkhandhaa. katame ca > bhikkhave pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa. ya.mki~nci bhikkhave ruupa.m...pe0... > santike vaa saasava.m upaadaaniya.m, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave > ruupupaadaanakkhandho. yaa kaaci vedanaa...pe0... ya.mki~nci > vi~n~naa.na.m...pe0... santike vaa saasava.m upaadaaniya.m, aya.m > vuccati bhikkhave vi~n~naa.nupaadaanakkhandho. ime vuccanti bhikkhave > pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa´´ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.48). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu! Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and pancupaadaanakkhandhaa? With respect, Htoo Naing 54293 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. robmoult I Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > Dear Rob, Joop, > > I agree that there is no actual "physical storage" when it comes to > the role of rupa in memory. Isn't storage as much a concept as > memory? In fact, aren't they considered synonymous (depending on how > you construe memory to function in the brain?) Some recent > neuroscientists (Edelman, I'm thinking of) consider memory to be > non-representational (hence "unstored") but very much a function of > the dynamics of the rupa-support in complex neural networks. As to > what the factor may be which allows for a complex arising within > consciousness called "remembering past lives," I have no clue. > ===== I think that we are on the same page. BTW, the key factor (but not the only factor) that plays a role in remembering past lives is natural decisive support condition... but let's leave that for another discussion :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54294 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:07am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 606 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Feelings are subtle things. We may think that feelings are easy to be detected. But it actually is hard to be focused. Because feeling always arises with consciousness and other mental factors. If there are dominating mental factors that is if there are mental factors that can easily be recognised then feeling will not be apparent as we think. At least almost all people know what 'pleasurable feeling' or 'agreeable feeling' is. They also know the opposite. That is 'unpleasant feeling'. The feeling that is not pleasant or not unpleasant is the third class of feeling. We see something. That something which we saw just manifest what they are. But we may like it. Or even we may extremely like it. There arise pleasant feeling when we extremely like it. I mean it is more apparent when we extremely like it. The opposite is we see something. That something which we saw is just manifesting its feature. But we do not like it. We feel unpleasant. This is the opposite of the feeling when we like something extremely. In the middle is a feeling somewhere between these two extremes. It is not pleasant and equally it is not unpleasant. This is general classification on feeling. At any given time our feeling will be at one of these three classes. If these 3 classes are connected with worldly things of sensuous matters then they are called feelings-in connection with-sensuous things. Examples are when we are not happy in connection with what we hope on our worldly achievement then it is in this new class of feeling- in connection with-sensuous matters. There are 3 feelings as in case of general classification. Still there is a third classification. It is feeling-not in connection with-sensuous matters. Examples are when we are trying to develop samatha or tranquility and we cannot attain what we want then there arises displeasure. This is not in connection with sensuous matters. When we can attain the concentration we want there arise a pleasure. That pleasure is feeling-not in connection with-sensuous matters. Because it is connected with tranquility or jhaana or samatha. Neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling in this third class is 'feeling in 4th ruupa jhaana and feeling in all aruupa jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54295 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:11am Subject: Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) philofillet Hi Scott and Allan and Phil (and Nina after that) > The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. Welcome to the group, Scott. It made my heart leap with attachment (lobha) masked as joy when I saw someone new asking about Abhidhamma. I've been very keen on it for about two years now, since I read Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I read it in a feverish state and I'm still off-kilter, careering between being cantankerous and bad- mannered (apologies in passing) with people who don't appreciate Abhidhamma and dewy-eyed about people who do. It'll pass in several lifetimes, I suspect. Welcome also Allan and Phil. Allan, you were asking about an Abhidhamma course. May I recommend to you or anyone else that is interested that in addition to Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Nina's book The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment, available at Robert K's site abhidhamma.org? I read them together when I got hooked, and I think it was helpful because we come to Abdhidhamma, most of us, with accumulated tendencies to be very interested in kusala (wholesome) cetasikas such as metta, karuna, karuna (patience) etc, and in Abdhihamma in Daily Life they don't make an appearance until quite late in the book. The book on the Perfections supports our accumulated interest in cultivating kusala, but within the context of Abhidhamma. Gradually we come to see that kusala (and the Perfections are simply kusala for us, because they are not accompanied by the kind of panna that makes them perfection, from what I understand) arises due to condtions, or it doesn't, there's nothing we have to do to try to have more, but I personally found at the beginnning that reading about the Perfections (paramis) in the context of Abhidhamma helped ease me into Abhidhamma in a nice way, if you know what you mean. If you have no idea what I've been babbling about here, nevermind. Nina, I have a question about atta-sanna, which I read about on p.355 of the Survey of Paramttha Dhamma.:"Wrong view takes the realities that appear for a compound, a 'whole', for something that last, for atta (self). If people at this moment do not know realities, as they are, there is bound to be atta-sanna., that is, the remembrance of perception that is 'I', who is seeing, that that what is seen is a being, a person, a self." So when perversions of sanna (vipallasa?) cause belief that a person is actually being seen rather than thought about (when we "see" people, we are thinking, not seeing) this is atta-sanna in exactly the same way that it is atta-sanna that has the sanna perversion that it is "I" who is seeing. Does this apply to things we see as well? When I "see" a tree, is there atta-sanna there as well? Why would it only apply to "seeing" people? Thanks in advance. I'll only be able to come here on Wednesdays and Saturdays, so please don't hurry. Phil 54296 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:25am Subject: Two questions about knowing nama from rupa (wasRe: Vis) philofillet Hi Nina and all I heard something about this in one of the talks. Sarah and A. Sujin talked about it at some length. > N: Ruupas such as visible object, sound etc. are gross, whereas naama is > more subtle. Do you think this point can help us in any way to distinguish the characteristics of nama from those of rupa? Another question. This from Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka: "First the specfic characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of nama and rupa should be known more clearly. Nama should be known as nama and rupa as rupa. When panna is more developed, the "general characterstics" of nama and rupa can be realized, that is, the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta." Would you kindly tell us a little about these visesa lakkhana - I guess I know that nama is that which experiences and rupa is that which cannot experience. Do these specific characteristics include other details such as the subtle vs. gross above? Thanks in advance, Nina. Phil. 54297 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Joop and Scott, > >> In my opinion, memory is a concept, a convention, an agreed-upon > description of a complex collection of mental processes (many series > of mental states - not a single mental state). Consciousness, mental > factors (especially sanna) and conditions (especially natural > decisive support condition) all play a role. Rupa plays a role in > memory in the same way it plays a role in all consciousness; as > a "support" for the mental state. However, rupa does not play a role > in physical storage. Consider people remembering past lives... how > can that memory be stored in rupa as there is no link between the > rupa of the past existence and the rupa of this existence? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hallo Rob, Scot Rob, nice to discuss again with you, and again on rupa About your statement above I want to say: Joop: I think we had to distinguish memory of conventional affairs and that of ultimate realities. The latter is the already famous 'accumulations"-discussions in which for example Nina states that cetesikas can be accumulated and "stored" in a citta (as far as I understand her) and so transmitted from one moment to to other as the falling away of one citta conditions the arising of the next. As far as I understand it what is stored and transmitted is more or less the same as "fruit of kamma" that can play its role in the process from one life to the next. Something else is the former: memory of conventional affairs. I give an example: I rember that thirty of more years ago my father said to me again and again: turn out the light when you leave a room. Till now I do that nearly automatically. The question is: what of "me" (in conventional terms) remembers that remark of my father? Is that my consciousness, from citta to citta, as above? Or is that some parts of my brain? Or is is my hand that goes automatically to the button of the light? My conclusion is twofold: - Is is the combination nama plus rupa that remembers such conventional things - Such conventional things are not transmitted from one life to the other! When you say: "remembering past lifes", that should mean that those people remember conventional realities. I don't believe that, it's their phantasie; and it's not according the Abhidhamma (as I want to understand it) with its distinguishment of ultimate and conventional realities. Metta Joop 54298 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 607 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When one attends one of the four foundations of mindfulness he or she is said to attend at a naama or a ruupa. Right mindfulness has to be stick to one of these four things of foundation of mindfulness. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. 3. contemplation on the mind There are 51 contemplations on consciousness or mind. When doing contemplation on consciousness one has to be skilful in recognition of various states of mind. Without this skill it is hard to practise these contemplations. For this please refer to earlier posts on cittas. There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. This consciousness is thinking on lustful matters. (saraga citta) 2. This consciousness is free of lustful thought.(vitaraga citta) 3. This consciousnes is thinking with ill-will.(sadosa citta) 4. This consciousness is free of thought of ill-will.(vitadosa citta) 5. This consciousness is thinking with ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. This consciousness is free of ignorant thoughts.(vitamoha citta) 7. This consciousness is thinking in non-alert way.(sankhitta citta) 8. This consciousness is thinking in upset way. My thoughts are wandering.(vikkhitta) 9. This consciousness is jhaana.(mahaggata citta) 10.This consciousness is not jhaana.(amahaggata citta) 11.This consciousness is lower.(sa-uttara citta) 12.This consciousness is higher.(anuttara citta) 13.This consciousness is concentrated one.(samahita citta) 14.This consciousness is not concentrated one.(asamahita citta) 15.This consciousness is liberated.(vimutta citta) 16.This consciousness is not liberated.(avimutta citta) These 16 states of mind have to be first recognised before cittanupassana or contemplation on consciousness can be done properly. For this one has to develop understanding on consciousness and their qualities. If they do not understand these 16 states of consciousness they will not be able to do 'real cittanupassanaa'. Some instruct that 'every arising mind has to be noted.' This is almost impossible. Even if they can they will be doing like this_ 1. I am thinking going shopping, meeting old friends, speaking with them. 2. I am thinking attending a meeting, fighting, shouting at each other. 3. I am thinking sleeping in luxuious way. 4. I am thinking worrying leaving my daughters at home. 5. I am thinking going holiday. And endless. But actually one does not has to follow all the thoughts from the beginning to the end. But they have to cognise that they have thought. As soon as they can recognise it the thinking stop. Then assess the thought whether they fit into 1 or 2 or 3 or 15 or 16. One perceives again and again that 'this citta arises in me'. At a time he thinks that other individuals will have been in one of these 16 cittas. At another time he perceives that there are cittas arise in him and others. 16 cittas or 16 contemplation is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally. So there are 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 contemplations. At a time the origination of these 16 cittas is perceived. At another time the dissolution of these 16 cittas is perceived. And sometimes both origination and dissolution of these cittas is perceived. 48 + 3 = 51 contemplations on various consciousness or states of mind. Origination is inappropraite attention. Dissolution is because of appropriate attention. Both origination and dissolution are because of attention and all these have to to be attached as 'me' or 'mine' or 'I'. If one is attending naama (citta) and see it as naama and not self he or she will be liberted (at least temporarily) from worldly sorrow, lamentation, distress, greediness etc etc. This is loka- nibbana. When all conditions are fulfiled then magga naana will arise and then nibbana will be seen through path-consciousnessness and fruition-consciousness. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54299 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:46am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > >... > Dear Scott, > Rupa is very ephemeral. It arises and passes away millions of times > in a split second- but because of continuity there is illusion of > something lasting. The earth we walk on is not as solid and lasting > as we might think. > Robert > > > Hallo Robert, Scott Robert, I have two remarks on your answer to Scott. First: you do not say what in fact 'rupa' is; many times is it translates as 'matter', that is not correct, the best one I know is: 'experienced material quality' Second, you say rupa "arises and passes away millions of times in a split second"; I know commentaries are using that number, but the Buddha did not. Also it's neurologically not possible. Your answer is correct when saying rupa arises and passes away hundreds of times in a split second" Metta Joop 54300 From: s.billard@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:05am Subject: Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada sbillard2000 Greetings all, I would like to know if there was anything "uncompatible" between Nagarjuna doctrine (Mulamadhyamakakarika) and the Theravada Doctrine ? I know Nagarjuna is seen as the founder of Madhyamika which later gave birth to Mahayana, but is Nagarjuna a lecture recommended for a theravadin ? Or does Mulamadhyamakakarika profess views seen as false views in the Theravada tradition ? Thanks for your input :) Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 54301 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:49am Subject: Re: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jonoabb Hi Joop Here is my reply on the 'accumulations' part of your recent post. Joop wrote: >Jon: " I don't think these 'philosophical' questions really come into >it! (My own view: All individuals other than the arahant have both >wholesome and unwholesome accumulated tendencies.) > >Joop: About the term 'accumulated' or 'accumulations' I have sone >some research. As Tep wrote some days ago, is used in the >commentaries (and not in the Tipitaka, that makes it already suspect) >only combined with the kamma-concept. > > Actually, the term I used was 'accumulated tendencies'. What I had in mind is what are referred to in the texts as the latent tendencies (unwholesome: anusaya; wholesome and unwholesome: aasayanusaya). These are what makes up an individual's potential for kusala and aksuala. To my understanding, the latent tendencies for a given individual are as they are because they have been accumulated over time. In other words, a tendency arising now adds to the latent tendencies for that particular tendency. Do you see it this way, or differently? Nina has written at length on this subject recently (to Howard and others), and I'm sure you'll have seen her posts. I include a short passage from one of her posts below. >In Nyanatiloka Dictionary: >áyúhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial >literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities >(karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda), >being the bases of future rebirth. ... > >In #1062 of okt 2000 (nothing is permanent but you are >consistent !!!) you explain: > >"Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we >forget they are not standard use! Thanks for raising this. >"Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various tendencies we >all have that make up the distinct personality and character by which >we are conventionally known. For example, our preferences for >particular tastes or colours, our good and bad qualities, the way we >walk and talk and so on. ..." > >This is more then the use of the term as in the Nyatiloka-quote: it's >overstretching the meaning. > > I was not referring necessarily to the Pali term 'ayuhana' (a term I am not particularly familiar with) but to the latent tendencies. I call them 'accumulations', although that may well not be the correct canonical term. >It sounds to me as the existence of an innate personality (do I hear >somebody say: this is atta-belief?) >And if isn't innate but has only to do with this life, then >accumulations like you (and Nina) use them, then "accumulations" can >be translated in psychological terms as "personality traits": >positive traits and negative traits. I'm not enthouastic about this >kind of psychology. > > It would not be correct to think of accumulated latent tendencies as 'personality traits', despite any apparent superficial similarities. Jon Extract from a recent post of Nina's: N: ... Cinati is another term for accumulation. The Expositor has a word association between cito, accumulated and citta: it accumulates kamma and the corruptions. But also good tendencies are accumulated. See the Path of Discrimination, about the Omniscient's knowledge: . We read (Ch 69, 585): ³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence 6 thus: ŒThe world is eternal¹ or ŒThe world is not eternal¹ ... Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have Œacceptance in conformity¹ 7 with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. 54302 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, ... > S: Rupa is paramattha > > dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are > > prone to seeing it? > -------- > N: We are prone to seeing a whole, a mass. We take this whole for self or > mine. The Buddha taught the truth of all dhammas that appear one at a time > through the six doors. Visible object is a rupa appearing through the > eyedoor. It is not a person or a thing. Sound is a rupa appearing through > the ear-door. It is not someone's voice, or my voice. We think immediately > of the source of the sound instead of just attending to the characteristic > of sound. > Awareness of the characteristics that appear, one at a time, is the way to > have right understanding of paramattha dhammas. > Paramattha dhammas are different from concepts such as person or tree we can > think of. It is helpful to know the difference between seeing and thinking, > hearing and thinking. > Does this make sense to you? Do not hesitate to ask again. > Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you. Does "awareness of characteristics as they appear one-at-a-time" lead to an awareness that, for example, "I" (as a heap)am not different than the rock whose elements condition its appearance through the eye-door? Nama arises later, if I am following, that is, all the processes that condition a thought like "there's a rock." By then I am deluded into seeing rock, thinking I see rock, and thinking I exist. Am I separate from the rock? If so, how? My body has reality, I guess, as rupa, as does the rock, but are the rock and I actually undifferentiated at the more subtle level? "Rock" is a concept. That it is different elements arising and falling away, as is my body, suggests to me that it is all in the same "soup." Where does consciousness (as paramattha dhamma) fit in? Does this differentiate things? Sorry if this is too incoherent. Sincerely, Scott. 54303 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi joop, > > If the following statement you made is true, then yes: > Hallo Charles About the quote: "According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model." In Being No One, Metzinger, a German philosopher, draws strongly on neuroscientific research to present a representationalist and functional analysis of what a consciously experienced first-person perspective actually is." You asked: The remaining issue would be, does the anatta-theory agree with the "phenomenal self" and the "transparent self" models? Joop: A good question; because I have not yet the book of Metzinger, I will answer careful, only my opinion: As quoted: "The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process", there is hardly a difference between this description and that of the five aggregates (khandas) And "phenomenal self" is not a self but a label of the model (the theory) of Metzinger Metta Joop 54304 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > >> > ======= > > >Dear Sarah, > > > > Is school in? > > > > I have a question regarding rupa. What exactly does it mean when > it > > is said that rupa "arises?" I gather that the continuity we think > we > > see is "illusion" and therefore, does this imply that if we were to > > see it as it is it would be much less continuous? Rupa is parattha > > dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are > > prone to seeing it? > > > > Thanks for your consideration. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Scott. > ________ > Dear Scott, > Rupa is very ephemeral. It arises and passes away millions of times > in a split second- but because of continuity there is illusion of > something lasting. The earth we walk on is not as solid and lasting > as we might think. > Robert > > > Dear Robert, Thank you. Is "solidity" paramattha dhamma? A concept? A property of elements? Without being facetious, might one who sees things as they are have a capacity to navigate this plane of existence differently, that is, pass through a wall, for example? I guess I'm wondering about impermanence as a natural phenomenon as it relates to rupa and the physical laws that govern it. Sincerely, Scott. Scott 54305 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 6:04am Subject: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > .... Hallo Jon I prefer not to repeat myself and not discuss linguistic misunderstandings. Waiting for your separately message on "the accumulations point" I will make one remark Jon: "Nevertheless, the particular sequence of: (1) inclination/intention to do akusala, followed by (2) kusala resolution not to do so is one that everyone is familiar with, I'm sure. How would you describe it?" Joop: You have explained that "inclination" in your vocubalaire means "intention" and not - what I thought - something semi-permanent as "tendency" and so has nothing to do with 'accumulations". In that case I have only one problem: There is no need to use to two-step- sequende, I prefer one step: Intention to do kusala. So I am not everyone. Metta Joop 54306 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:46am Subject: Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Scott and Allan and Phil (and Nina after that) > > > The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na. > > Welcome to the group, Scott. It made my heart leap with > attachment (lobha) masked as joy when I saw someone new asking about > Abhidhamma. I've been very keen on it for about two years now, since > I read Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I read it in a feverish state and > I'm still off-kilter, careering between being cantankerous and bad- > mannered (apologies in passing) with people who don't appreciate > Abhidhamma and dewy-eyed about people who do. It'll pass in several > lifetimes, I suspect. Dear Phil, Thanks for your welcome. I can see we share a common reaction to Abhidhamma study. I don't really know it, and have just broached the study of it, but I really do have this deep sense that this is something that totally fits in ways I can't quite comprehend. Too wax somewhat histrionic (while meaning it), I find the Abhidhamma to be quite beautiful. Sincerely, Scott. 54307 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 1/4/06 6:45:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > When you say: "remembering past lifes", that should mean that those > people remember conventional realities. I don't believe that, it's > their phantasie; and it's not according the Abhidhamma (as I want to > understand it) with its distinguishment of ultimate and conventional > realities. > ===================== Was the Buddha, then, one who fantisized? It is recorded that he claimed to have recalled on the night of his final awkening multiple past lives, his name status, occupation, etc! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54308 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - body and rock nilovg Dear Scott, op 04-01-2006 14:35 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: Does "awareness of characteristics as they appear > one-at-a-time" lead to an awareness that, for example, "I" (as a > heap)am not different than the rock whose elements condition its > appearance through the eye-door? ------ N: Colour is just the rupa that is colour, no matter it is colour of a rock or of the body. When touching a rock or the body, hardness may appear. Hardness is only hardness, a kind of rupa that can be experienced through the bodysense. If one just attends to the dhamma that appears now, without thinking or comparing a rock and the body, it will lead to more understanding of what paramattha dhammas are. --------- S:Nama arises later, if I am > following, that is, all the processes that condition a thought like > "there's a rock." By then I am deluded into seeing rock, thinking I > see rock, and thinking I exist. -------- N: It may not arise later, thinking of concepts may also arise before awareness of one reality arises. It does not matter. It is helpful to know that thinking of concepts is different from awareness of a dhamma. We do not have to avoid such thinking, it arises naturally. Moreover, it is not necessarily thinking with delusion, also the Buddha thought of persons. ------- S: Am I separate from the rock? If so, how? My body has reality, I > guess, as rupa, as does the rock, but are the rock and I actually > undifferentiated at the more subtle level? ------ N: As said before, the rupas of the body originate from kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. What we call a rock is composed of rupas that originate from heat. The rupas such as eyesense, earsense, life-faculty are produced by kamma. ------- S: "Rock" is a concept. That > it is different elements arising and falling away, as is my body, > suggests to me that it is all in the same "soup." ----- N: no, there are different types of rupas arising from different conditioning factors. ----- S:Where does > consciousness (as paramattha dhamma) fit in? Does this differentiate > things? ------ N: A rock has no feeling, no citta. Kamma produces at the first moment of human life five khandhas: rupa, citta and cetasikas. We are nama and rupa, nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. But we have to make a distinction with regard to the different types of nama and rupa that are conditioning dhammas and conditioned dhammas. "So, when the khandhas are present, 'A being' is said in common usage." ******* Nina. 54309 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 7:51am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Robert, > > Thank you. Is "solidity" paramattha dhamma? A concept? A property > of elements? Without being facetious, might one who sees things as > they are have a capacity to navigate this plane of existence > differently, that is, pass through a wall, for example? I guess I'm > wondering about impermanence as a natural phenomenon as it relates to > rupa and the physical laws that govern it. > > Sincerely, > >>+++++++++++++ Dear Scott, Pathavi is the element of hardness/softness/solidity, but it lasts for just a flash and then is gone forever. However, if conditions are present it may be quickly replaced. Pathavi always arises in groups(kalapas) with other material elements. Some arahants could understand things truly as they are but still not walk through walls. The concepts like walls and people are not real but they are the shadows of what is real- paramatha dhammas like pathavi. So if you touch a table it feels hard. Why? Because pathavi element is strong in the groups of ephemeral kalapas that make up what we call a table. Touch a fire and it doesn't feel hard, it feels hot. Why? Because tejo element is powerful, while pathavi is weak in those kalapas. It seems like our earth is solid and lasting, but in fact if the conditions for rupas to keep rearising were not present then this earth and the whole material universe would disappear in an instant. I don't know if this answers your question? Robert 54310 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 9:41am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Hi Matheesha and Howard, Thank-you both for writing such well-reasoned and thoughtful posts. You are of course right that Buddha did discuss specific methods for development of samatha and instructed disciples to practice them. One critical distinction between samatha and vipassana (or satipatthana of any sort) is that the objects of samatha are concept and can be selected but with satipatthana the objects are paramattha and not selected. Because the objects can be selected, certain specific physical conditions (e.g., sitting cross-legged in a quiet, dark corner, eyes closed, comfortable cushion) and specific methods (e.g., focusing on the breath) can facilitate samatha. Because the objects of satipatthana are paramattha, they arise and fall away in a flash and cannot be selected or planned. And, as the Satipatthan sutta so wonderfully illustrates, satipatthana can arise in any sort of activity or physical conditions. The Dhamma is rich and lively and diverse and includes the conventional, intentional, directed, specific, "formal" cultivation of samatha and sila. It also includes the development of satipatthana/insight/vipassana (which is not so conducive to specified, directed, conventional notions of cultivation). And a few specific responses to your comments... > M: Does she say understanding anatta is the core of the buddhas > teaching? I think it could be considered core and quite symbolic of > the sotapanna stage. My vote goes for the irradication of lobha, > dosa and moha as the core of the entire teaching. Eradication of lobha, dosa, moha comes through deep understanding of the tilakkhana of citta, cetasika, rupa and the realization of Nibbana. The understanding of paramattha dhammas comes through progressive development of satipatthana. > D: conceptual > > meditation is what is often referred to as "formal > > meditation" in dsg, viz., sit quietly in a corner, eyes closed, > > directing the attention to a particular object. Real > > meditation would then be the actual moments when there is > development > (bhavana) of satipatthana or insight. > > M: Oh I see what you mean. You mean moments of direct experiencing > being 'real' meditating (as in vipassana) and experiencing concepts > as in samatha or dhamma study being conceptual. Thanks for the correction. I was overlooking samatha, which I would consider "real meditation" (bhavana). My statement should then be: conceptual meditation is what is often referred to as "formal meditation" in dsg, viz., sit quietly in a corner, eyes closed, directing the attention to a particular object. Real meditation would then be the actual moments when there is development (bhavana) of satipatthana or samatha. Bhavana is necessarily kusala and done with right effort. "Formal meditation" is neither kusala nor akusala, neither Right Effort nor Wrong Effort. > M: My point is that what is described in that ganakamoggallana sutta is > that the Buddha was describing a gradual path. Which means starting > out with things like sense restraint, sila, etc which are found in > any religious practice. These are conditions for the establishment > of the four foundations of mindfulnes. The satipattaana sutta starts > by saying that the monk abandoning desire and distress with regards > to the world goes ont to do the satipattana practice. So there is a > form of preparatory practice and satipattana cannot arise suddenly. Satipatthana arises suddenly, but not without conditions. The restraint, sila, etc. that are found in any respectable religious practice are not the conditions for satipatthana--otherwise, wouldn't we expect to see the strongest development of satipatthana in those religions that most strongly emphasize restraint, sila, etc.? Buddha tells us that the conditions are listening to Dhamma and yoniso manasikara. > M: Look at this sutta: > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > M: Development of jhana fits in well with the first path. Another > sutta sees the Buddha saying if a monk knows samatha, I will teach > him vipassana, and vice versa (samadhi sutta/AN). So jhana which is > found in other religions as well can be used as a preparatory method > for developing the four foundations of mindfulness and is useful > even further along the path as we see below: > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained > internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the > mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should > it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer > in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be > steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness > & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/canon/sutta/anguttara/a n04-094.html Yes. The Buddha highly praised jhana and samatha for the attainment of tranquility. One who has attained insight but no tranquility is instructed to approach someone who has attained tranquility to ask for help with refinement of methods to attain tranquility so that he can become one who has both tranquility and insight. > D: it can take years or decades to even get an inkling that a practice is generating more mana and lobha than panya. ... > M: The problems you mention are only present with poor instruction. I agree that some teachers may unwittingly cultivate delusion by assuring the student that the practice is generating panya when it really is generating mana and lobha. The problem is not the teaching of a wrong method (I'm not interested in entering the wars of Goenka vs. Mahasi vs. Buddhadasa vs...), but in lack of a clear understanding of the difference between tranquility and insight on the part of the student. That difference may well be easy to state and conceptualize--and all the meditation teachers I've worked with state it frequently and unambiguously--but to understand the difference is another matter entirely. > Disciples of the buddha were seperated over vast distances in > distant forests. Some even commited suicide due to poor > understanding of ashubha bhaavana even while the Buddha was in the > area. Yet, the buddha never went back on the absolute importance of > both samatha and vipassana. Yes, if there is poor teaching there > will be problems. Yes, proper understanding is very important. Yes, > samatha is not direct understanding. There can be direct > understanding without samatha - No I think that would be very > difficult. To drop samatha is to drop the path from the conventional > to the ultimate. No, let's not drop samatha, but not because it is the path from the conventional to the ultimate (it is surely not--satipatthana is the path to the ultimate), but because it is good to cultivate all kinds of kusala. > > > D:Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > > > > > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." > > M: I think you are thinking of only the satipattana perhaps. Clearly > the dhammas are appearing every moment. You dont need to be anywhere > special. But to be able to see it, you do need to be somewhere > special - atleast have the proper samadhi development to be able to > do so. Dhammas are appearing at every moment, and there certainly needs to be proper samadhi to see that. This is different from saying that one needs to practice such-and-such meditation technique before seeing, and it is far, far different from saying that if one practices such a technique, there will be satipatthana. The objects of satipatthana are not selected or honed as they are with jhana or other samatha. There is no "practicing" seeing paramattha or saying, "I will now sit in a corner and observe the paramattha dhamma 'hearing' and attain to the knowledge of rise-and-fall." > D: The conventional notions of training, doing, practice are > conceptual,> i.e., there is the idea that there is a person who > > > thinks, "I will do such and such activities in order to acheive > such> and such result," that there is a person who does such > > > and such activities in order to acheive such and such results. > That> is purely conceptual and it is "ritual". > > M: Well if we do a conceptual thing like slamming a knife on your > fingers, they will be sliced off. It will be reflected in the > absolute with exquisite panna! D: No, cutting off the fingers is not a path to exquisite panya. There will surely be pain, and it may or may not be observed as paramattha and it may or may not be observed as "my" pain. The fingers will be severed, but that is concept and not the vehicle for development of insight. > If the buddha said these things, then they are valid. You cant > theorise them away. Yes he was talking conceptually, and all humans > do when they wish to communicate normally. But what is thought of > and done conceptually 'ultimately' reflects in the paramatta. This > division KS brings into the dhamma is an extra, an unneccessary > addition. The distinction between reality and concept was discussed by Buddha, it's a major topic in Abhidhamma, and it is discussed very frequently in the commentaries. It is not an invention of KS. > > A few questions: > > 1. Did Buddha teach ritual as the means or vehicle to liberation? > > I don't think so. In fact, he taught that adherence to ritual was a > > fetter to broken. Thus, it would seem strange to read Satipatthana > > sutta as a list of prescribed practices [rituals]. > > > > "...a monk having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to > an > > empty hut, sits down cross-legged, his body erect and his > mindfulness > > alert. Just mindful he breates in..." -- this is a description, > Erik. > > A prescription would read more like this: "...to establish > > mindfulness, you should go to the forest, sit down cross-legged, > and > > practice noting the breath." There is a world of difference, and it > > is not at all subtle. > > M: Look at the sutta below: > > "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by > you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my > awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... > Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, > handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, > consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train > yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, > you should develop this concentration with directed thought & > evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a > modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed > thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by > rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of > enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. > > "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by > you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on > the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside > greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should > train yourself. > > http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt > ara/an08-063.html > > M: I'm sorry -but 'I will remain focused' is pretty clear. 'you > should then train yourself thus' is also clear. This is not a > description, it is a way of doing something. its necessary to turn > it into a description only to fit into the KS theory, not otherwise. > Whats more this is not just sutta knowledge either, I know this > works with experience. That is why I say it with confidence, but of > course you do not have to believe me on that. D: A great reminder of the distinction between tranquillity and insight... > M: Quite apart from the dhamma I also noticed you used the term 'Ai- > yo!'. Its a term used in sri lanka for the same purpose that you > have. Can I ask you where you are from? :) I'm originally from Montana (USA), but I spent some 8 months in China. "Ai-yo" is very common in Chinese. > D:> 2. Are some rituals helpful in the development of panya, while > others > > are not? > > M: There is samadhi, there is sati -all is set. Then all you have to > do is watch dhammas arising and passing away. Panna will arise with > time. I dont agree that satipattana is a ritual. As it clearly says > sati (vipassana) has to be maitained right through the day, through > all actions. If it is done properly, nama-rupa will be > differentiated. Causality will be discerend. tilakkana will be > realised. We have trained hundreds of people in this and I can say > without a doubt that it works. But it all depends that you dont turn > it into samatha. If you do all is lost. It all depends on where your > sati is. Satipatthana is most decidedly not a ritual. To ritualize it (by, say, reading the Satipatthana Sutta as an instruction manual) would be to turn it into samatha, and the original meaning of the term would be lost. > > An analogy: The case of joyous laughter > > > > Description: "A bhikkhu abiding in joyous laughter tilts his head > > back and with a twinkle in his eye turns up the corners of > > > > his mouth and lets forth a joyous sound." > > > > Prescription (or instruction): "To laugh joyously, tilt your head > > back, produce a twinkle in your eye, turn up the corners of > > > > your mouth and let forth a joyous sound." > > M: I thin i already showed you the 'should' in it. Besides if you > say 'to eat the monk puts food in his mouth' isnt it clear that that > is the way to eat and not otherwise? Regarding the food, yes, to eat the monk puts food in his mouth. But, satipatthana is awareness of paramattha, which, like joyous laughter, is not something that is conjured willfully. > M: What understanding is there with no direct knowledge? What about > the self the tries to gather knowledge in hopes of attaining? I'd say that there can be conceptual understanding with no direct knowledge, that speculative conceptualization is not in the least bit helpful, but that reflective conceptualization (i.e., putting past experience into language and Dhamma) can help condition insight. > Dan, Im sorry but its late and i dont think i want to answer any > more of the email as it has taken 3 hours already. So im leaving the > rest of it below, as it is. From this friday i will be in sri lanka > so i will not be able to reply unfortunately. Thank-you again for the care and effort you put into discussing Dhamma. I find your comments very helpful. Have a wonderful time in Sri Lanka! Dan 54311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) nilovg Hi Phil, op 04-01-2006 12:11 schreef Phil op philco777@...: I read it in a feverish state and > I'm still off-kilter, careering between being cantankerous and bad- > mannered (apologies in passing) with people who don't appreciate > Abhidhamma and dewy-eyed about people who do. It'll pass in several > lifetimes, I suspect. ----- N: You made me laugh! Especially the 'apologies in passing'. -------- > Ph: May I recommend to you or anyone else that is > interested that in addition to Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Nina's book > The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment, available at Robert K's > site abhidhamma.org? .... The book on the Perfections supports our > accumulated interest in cultivating kusala, but within the context > of Abhidhamma. ------- N: When I told Lodwijk what you wrote he aplauded. He said that this is exactly what he thinks. The Abhidhamma is aimed at practice, the application of all kinds of kusala. The Abhidhamma is essential to understand what is kusala and what is not kusala. Lodewijk said: the Abhidhamma and the Perfections complement each other. BTW all we read in our Visuddhimagga studies is directed toward practice. It may seem theory when we read about many details but these details are helpful for the understanding of realities. ------ Ph: Gradually we come to see that kusala (and the > Perfections are simply kusala for us, because they are not > accompanied by the kind of panna that makes them perfection, from > what I understand) arises due to condtions, or it doesn't, there's > nothing we have to do to try to have more, ------ N: There cannot be pañña with each kusala citta, but if our aim is elimination of akusala the kusala can be a perfection. We do not wish to gain anything for ourselves. Yes, the Abhidhamma shows that akusala as well as kusala cannot be manipulated. They are conditioned elements. -------- > > Nina, I have a question about atta-sanna, which I read about on > p.355 of the Survey of Paramttha Dhamma.:"Wrong view takes the > realities that appear for a compound, a 'whole', for something that > last, for atta (self). If people at this moment do not know > realities, as they are, there is bound to be atta-sanna., that is, > the remembrance of perception that is 'I', who is seeing, that that > what is seen is a being, a person, a self." > > So when perversions of sanna (vipallasa?) cause belief that a > person is actually being seen rather than thought about (when > we "see" people, we are thinking, not seeing) this is atta-sanna in > exactly the same way that it is atta-sanna that has the sanna > perversion that it is "I" who is seeing. > > Does this apply to things we see as well? When I "see" a tree, is > there atta-sanna there as well? Why would it only apply to "seeing" > people? ------- N: When we think that we see a tree without any understanding of dhammas, there is a 'whole' of different realities: a whole of colour, seeing, defining a tree, they are all mixed up. We do not see the true nature of dhammas that appear, one at a time. We do not see them as impermanent elements devoid of self. Atta-saññaa does not only mean that we identify objects with ourselves. We do not think: the tree is me. But we may consider the tree as a thing that exists. There is a misunderstanding, a wrong interpretation of many different dhammas. The beginning step in the right direction is realizing by insight the distinction between nama and rupa. Some people think that everybody knows that nama that experiences is different from rupa that does not experience. But this is not insight. They have to be known as a dhamma, that is, as not a person, not a thing that exists. And also insight that knows is not a person but a conditioned element. I repost part of Visuddhimagga 213: characteristics of nama from those of rupa? ------- N: Colour and sound can be immediately experienced through eyeas and ears. But the citta that experiences them is more subtle, it is concealed. We know that there is citta, otherwise nothing in the world could appear. But citta is not immediately known. The sense objects are known through the sense-doors and the mind-door, nama is known only through the mind-door. Nama only becomes apparent when the first stage of insight arises. Then it is understood what nama is, different from rupa. -------- Ph: Another question. This from Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka: "First the > specfic characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of nama and rupa should be > known more clearly. Nama should be known as nama and rupa as rupa. When > panna is more developed, the "general characterstics" of nama and rupa > can be realized, that is, the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha > and anatta." ... Do these specific characteristics include other > details such as the subtle vs. gross above? ------ N: There are different kinds of rupa and different kinds of nama and each dhamma has its specific characteristic that appears. Not only one kind of rupa, such as hardness, has to be known but several other kinds. The same with nama. Many different kinds of citta, feelings, cetasikas such as dosa, lobha, generosity, have to be known so that paññaa can develop and the three characteristics can eventually be clearly realized. Nina 54312 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 matheesha333 Hi Scott, Welcome to the group! S: > I have a question regarding rupa. What exactly does it mean when it > is said that rupa "arises?" I gather that the continuity we think we > see is "illusion" and therefore, does this imply that if we were to > see it as it is it would be much less continuous? M: This is the difference between the method of perception we have now, and the direct perception of realites there is when the faculties of the mind like samadhi/calm have been developed. It would indeed be less continuous. This is where the understanding of impermanence comes from. By seeing it arising and passing away. It happens so fast in the normal mind that it looks continuous. This can be seen in vipassana practice. You will initially see it passing away. As the sensitivity of mindfulness gets stronger you will see it arising as well. (You can see this order of things mentioned in the satipattaana sutta.) S: Rupa is parattha > dhamma so it is real. Is it just not real in the sense that we are > prone to seeing it? M: There are no clear margins where the ultimate (real) ends and the conceptual begins. The conceptual exists because there is the ultimate. lets take thinking 'i love chocolate' while eating chocolate. A conceptual thought using the concept of 'I' in its contents- the concepts used might be false- but that a thought did come into existence (regardless of what was in it) is real and ultimate. You felt the rupa of the tast of chocolate. As a result of that cause you had a thought arising. The difference is that the ultimate if experienced teaches us the reality of the tilakkana (anicca, dukka ,anatta). While a concept does not ('I love you forever!'). metta Matheesha 54313 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,214, two kinds of five khandhas nilovg Dear Htoo, this is coming up soon, maybe tomorrow. Ven. Bodhi made a note to this which I find helpful.I had also been thinking about this: why the two kinds of five khandhas! Nina. op 04-01-2006 12:04 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: >> 214. 2. 'As to distinction': as to the distinction between > aggregates >> and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. >> > Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help > understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and > pancupaadaanakkhandhaa? 54314 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop - > ..... > Was the Buddha, then, one who fantisized? It is recorded that he > claimed to have recalled on the night of his final awkening multiple past lives, > his name status, occupation, etc! > > With metta, > Howard > Hallo Howard Those stories always amazed me. "Name, status, occupation" are concepts; and to me it's an atta that is remembered. That is more reincarnation than rebirth, more hinduistic or tibetan than theravada- buddhistic to me. But better I can be modest and subjective: I don't believe in such concrete reincarnation, rebirth with its accumulated cetasikas in rebirth-linking is already difficult enough to me Metta Joop 54315 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... Hi Rob M Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most things... In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:05:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: In your example, you gave many, many examples of "indirect conditions" that do not immediately connect to the immediate moment. The Patthana only looks at "direct" conditions. TG: I'd be interested in how "absence condition" is a "direct condition"? I don't believe it can be. DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? The Suttas show the Buddha performing DO analysis on all sorts of things that are not the 12 fold chain. I believe DO is the guiding principle of all conditionality and that the 12 fold chain is merely one example of it...an important example yes. In my opinion, DO is a special sequence which is only applied to the question, "why are we bound to samsara and how do we get 'unbound'?". It is possible that I am wrong about this (would not be the first time!), please point me to a Sutta where the Buddha talked about DO in some other context. TG: I'll give some examples of DO analysis that I have handy but not specifically designed for our discussion... “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.â€? (The Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 605 – 606, To Dighanakha, Dighanakha Sutta, #74) “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathagata (Buddha), this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of things prevails, all phenomena are impermanent.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Gradual Sayings (GS), (Anguttara Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 264-265) “Owing to difference of element there is difference of contact; owing to difference of contact there is difference of feeling; owing to difference of feeling there is difference of perception; owing to difference of perception there is difference of thought; owing to difference of thought there is difference of intention; owing to difference of intention there is difference of obsession; owing to difference of obsession there is difference of quest; owing to difference of quest there is difference of what is gained.â€? (Ven. Sariputta . . . LDB, pg. 520, Expanding Decades, Dasuttara Sutta, #34) “…Monks, it is in dependence on the diversity of elements that there arise the diversity of perceptions; in dependence on the diversity of perceptions that there arises the diversity of intentions; in dependence on the diversity of intentions that there arises the diversity of contacts [contact with “ new-unfolding phenomenaâ€? renewing the cycle of feelings, perceptions, . . . quests.]; in dependence on the diversity of contacts that there arises the diversity of feelings; in dependence on the diversity of feeling that there arises the diversity of desires; in dependence on the diversity of desires that there arises the diversity of passions; in dependence on the diversity of passions that there arises the diversity of quests…â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 632) “Above, across and below, As far as the world extends, A monk observes how things occur, How aggregates arise and fall.â€? (The Buddha . . . NDB, pg. 81) TG: I'll stop here. Note the above quote specifically deals with a monk observing DO in all things !!! This quote as much or more than the others does seem specific to our discussion. ===== Because the purpose of the teaching is to help free us from samsara, DO is central to the teaching... one might even say that DO *is the teaching*. I believe that is what MN28 that you quoted above is saying. TG: Agree with your statement, we just don't agree on what DO entails. The scope Patthana is far more than DO. The Patthana covers general "laws of nature" which are not linked to DO. There are also other general "laws of nature" which are not included in the Buddha's teaching nor in the Patthana; the "law of gravity", for example. TG: Again, nothing is outside the scope of DO other than Nibbana IMO. The Buddha did not discuss the law of gravity because it was outside his stated scope. There are lots of things that are outside of the scope of the Buddha's teaching - if I want to know how to travel from one city to another, I consult a roadmap not Suttas... but if I want to know how the path to free myself from samsara, I consult the Suttas. TG: The Buddha used all sorts of examples to show conditional and could have used gravity if it came up for discussion. He talked about boats rotting in the elements. Yet he wasn't a seaman to my knowledge. ;-) I'm not sure, but I think that I may be getting off-topic. Please reign me in.... Metta, Rob M :-) TG 54316 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 6:26am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > >... > > Dear Scott, > > Rupa is very ephemeral. It arises and passes away millions of times > > in a split second- but because of continuity there is illusion of > > something lasting. The earth we walk on is not as solid and lasting > > as we might think. > > Robert > > > > > > > Hallo Robert, Scott > > Robert, I have two remarks on your answer to Scott. > > First: you do not say what in fact 'rupa' is; many times is it > translates as 'matter', that is not correct, the best one I know > is: 'experienced material quality' > > Second, you say rupa "arises and passes away millions of times in a > split second"; I know commentaries are using that number, but the > Buddha did not. Also it's neurologically not possible. Your answer is > correct when saying rupa arises and passes away hundreds of times > in a split second" > > Metta > > Joop > Dear Joop, When you clarify the translation of rupa into "experienced material quality," you add a lot to the definition that is not implied in the word "matter." Do you mean that rupa is a subjective factor ("experienced")? Or, in other words, is it "all in the mind?" Or does this mean that nama (experience?) is inseparable from rupa (material)? What, if you would, is the source of your preferred definition? Thanks for your consideration. Scott. 54317 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 8:24am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ... > Dear Scott, > Pathavi is the element of hardness/softness/solidity, but it lasts > for just a flash and then is gone forever. However, if conditions > are present it may be quickly replaced. Pathavi always arises in > groups(kalapas) with other material elements. > Some arahants could understand things truly as they are but still > not walk through walls. The concepts like walls and people are not > real but they are the shadows of what is real- paramatha dhammas > like pathavi. So if you touch a table it feels hard. Why? Because > pathavi element is strong in the groups of ephemeral kalapas that > make up what we call a table. Touch a fire and it doesn't feel hard, > it feels hot. Why? Because tejo element is powerful, while pathavi > is weak in those kalapas. > It seems like our earth is solid and lasting, but in fact if the > conditions for rupas to keep rearising were not present then this > earth and the whole material universe would disappear in an instant. > > > I don't know if this answers your question? > > Robert Dear Robert, Thank you. Material elements, then, are as they are. Elemental kalapas are the substrate(?) forming the basis for dhammas we later determine to be "wall" or "people." That element/s which is/are strong condition/s what we later experience (hardness or heat). This is, perhsps, phassa? Attaining nibbana might amount, then(?), to a systematic layering of the set of conditions necessary and sufficient to cause the disappearance of this earth and the whole material universe, from the standpoint of the attainer. Sincerely, Scott. 54318 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - body and rock scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, ... > N: Colour is just the rupa that is colour, no matter it is colour of a rock > or of the body. When touching a rock or the body, hardness may appear. > Hardness is only hardness, a kind of rupa that can be experienced through > the bodysense. > If one just attends to the dhamma that appears now, without thinking or > comparing a rock and the body, it will lead to more understanding of what > paramattha dhammas are. ... > N: As said before, the rupas of the body originate from kamma, citta, > nutrition and heat. What we call a rock is composed of rupas that originate > from heat. The rupas such as eyesense, earsense, life-faculty are produced > by kamma. ... Dear Nina, Thank you. Attention to dhammas or awareness of dhammas is one of the aims, I see, of Abhidhamma study. De-conceptualisation. May I know where there is a list of different types of rupa? Is the term "originates from heat" the same as "is conditioned by heat?" Sincerely, Scott. 54319 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,214 lbidd2 Htoo: "Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and pancupaadaanakkhandhaa?" Hi Htoo, It has to do with the two "L's". One is Larry and one is not :-) Larry 54320 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada lbidd2 Sebastien: "Greetings all, I would like to know if there was anything "incompatible" between Nagarjuna doctrine (Mulamadhyamakakarika) and the Theravada Doctrine ? I know Nagarjuna is seen as the founder of Madhyamika which later gave birth to Mahayana, but is Nagarjuna a lecture recommended for a theravadin ? Or does Mulamadhyamakakarika profess views seen as false views in the Theravada tradition ?" Hi Sebastien, The main difference is that Nagarjuna _seems_ to say the khandhas have no self-nature (sabhava). However, it is best to approach this subject with a very open mind and not jump to conclusions. Everything Nagarjuna wrote is open to interpretation, as is "sabhava". I would recommend you familiarize yourself with the Theravada meaning of "concept and reality" before studying Nagarjuna. Madhyamaka is a difficult subject, but well worth the effort. Larry 54321 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/4/2006 6:24:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: The main difference is that Nagarjuna _seems_ to say the khandhas have no self-nature (sabhava). However, it is best to approach this subject with a very open mind and not jump to conclusions. Everything Nagarjuna wrote is open to interpretation, as is "sabhava". I would recommend you familiarize yourself with the Theravada meaning of "concept and reality" before studying Nagarjuna. Madhyamaka is a difficult subject, but well worth the effort. Larry Hi Larry The above confused me. Are you sating that Theravada holds that the Khandas do have self-nature? TG 54322 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada lbidd2 TG: "The above confused me. Are you sating that Theravada holds that the Khandas do have self-nature?" Hi TG, Yes, but I should have translated sabhava as "own-nature" rather than "self-nature". Sorry. The idea being that a paramattha dhamma is a thing-in-itself, a particular. For satipatthana it means that a paramattha dhamma is an experience or can be experienced, however you may understand that. A concept isn't an experience, or can't be experienced. You can't experience a man, but you can experience visible data and you can experience the sign of a man (in other words, recognize a man). Larry 54323 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: <...> > M: This is the difference between the method of perception we have > now, and the direct perception of realites there is when the faculties > of the mind like samadhi/calm have been developed. It would indeed be > less continuous. This is where the understanding of impermanence comes > from. By seeing it arising and passing away. It happens so fast in the > normal mind that it looks continuous. This can be seen in vipassana > practice. You will initially see it passing away. As the sensitivity > of mindfulness gets stronger you will see it arising as well. (You can > see this order of things mentioned in the satipattaana sutta.) <...> Dear Matheesha, Thank you for your welcome and kind response. In the Satipataana Sutta you cited I read about "frame of reference" which seems, in summary (if I'm getting it) to refer to seeing "feelings . . . mind . . . mental qualities in and of itself/themselves." I learned that thoughts are paramattha dhamma regardless of content: A thought is real, the content is not necessarily (or never?)so. I guess if the thought contains knowledge of "the reality of the tilakkana" then it might too be "real." Is it fair to say that, just as there can be no rupa without nama and no nama without rupa, that there can be no ultimate without the conventional? Well no, I guess that can't be true since nibbana "exists" outside of an beyond all this. Anyway, more to learn I guess. Sincerely, Scott. 54324 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 10:42pm Subject: Ending Pain Itself ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Six Sense Sources Originate & Prolong all Pain! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, if one does not really understand both the cause, ceasing, the satisfaction, the danger, and the escape from the Six Sources of Contact, then one has not lived the Noble life, & one is quite far away from comprehending this Dhamma & from practicing this Discipline... Then a certain bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, I am lost, for I do neither really understand the cause, nor the ceasing, nor the satisfaction, nor the danger, nor the escape from any of the Six Sources of Contact ... !!! What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Eye as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Ear as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Nose as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Tongue as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Body as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... What do you think, bhikkhu, do you regard the Mind as: This is mine, this I am, this is my self? No, Venerable Sir... Very good, bhikkhu! So should you continue to clearly comprehend the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and the mind as it really is, with correct understanding thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self! In this way will the six sources or contact be left behind, by creating no future renewed existence! This itself is the End of all Suffering... Comments: The cause of the six senses is the arising of name-&-form, body-&-mind... The six senses cease at the ceasing of name-&-form, body-&-mind... The satisfaction of the six senses is the pleasure & joy they generate... The danger of the six senses is their inherent unstable impermanence... The escape from the six senses is the elimination of craving: Nibbana! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [43] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. The six sources or contact: 71-2. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 54325 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:10am Subject: Re: Metta leoaive Hi Then idea of different vehicles is wrong. I actually think it is. Based on Pali canon: making sides is wrong and it is wrong speech. With metta Leo 54326 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - body and rock nilovg Dear Scott, op 04-01-2006 17:42 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: Attention to dhammas or awareness of dhammas is one of the > aims, I see, of Abhidhamma study. De-conceptualisation. ------ N: There is no denying of the world with concepts, we live our usual life naturally. Our social life with our fellowbeings, having metta and compassion. At the same time understanding can be developed of paramattha dhammas. This understanding helps us not to mislead ourselves in taking for kusala what is in fact akusala. We lead our social life with less delusion, more sincerity, truthfulness. ------- S: May I know > where there is a list of different types of rupa? ------- N: I wrote an Intro to Rupas, see Rob K's web: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Rupa%201.htm The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena. On the same web, from Survey of Paramattha dhammas, I quote: Summarizing the twentyeight kinds of rúpa, they are: the 8 inseparable rúpas, avinibbhoga rúpas, including the 4 principle rúpas, mahå-bhúta rúpas, of: solidity (Earth) cohesion (Water) temperature (Fire) motion or pressure (Wind) and the 4 derived rúpas of: colour odour flavour nutrition Furthermore there are the following rúpas: 4 lakkhana rúpas (origination, continuity, decay and falling away, characteristics inherent in all rúpas) 1 pariccheda rúpa or space (akåsa), delimiting groups of rúpa 5 pasåda rúpas, sense organs 1 rúpa which is heart-base, hadaya vatthu (base for cittas other than the sense-cognitions 1 rúpa which is life faculty, jívitindriya rúpa 2 rúpas which are sex, bhåva-rúpas 3 vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability (lightness, plasticity and wieldiness) 2 rúpas which are body intimation, kåya-viññatti, and speech intimation, vaci-viññatti 1 rúpa which is sound Altogether there are 28 kinds of rúpa. ***** Also the Visuddhimagga gives details in Ch XIV, rupakkhandha. This is a book worth having. Larry and I make studies and post already for more than two years. It can be found in the archives, under Visuddhimagga. And it is the beginning of our study. As to Survey, this is a free book, and you could tell Sarah offline if you like to have it send to you from Thailand. ------- S: Is the term > "originates from heat" the same as "is conditioned by heat?" ------- N: kammaja in Pali, literally: born from kamma. You ask: originates from heat, this is literally born from. We can say: produced by. Conditioned by : herewith an additional factor can be designated, apart from the factor that produces. There are only four factors that produce, but more types of other conditions operating at the same time. There are more details which may go too far for now. The Expositor (Co to the Dhammasangani), p. 443, mentions: the word origin has different implications. We have rupa: born of kamma, caused by kamma, originating in the caloric order (the element of heat) caused by kamma... Then some examples are given that show us that different conditions operate. One of these: This refers to the supranatural powers acquired in Samatha. Nina. 54327 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 1:16am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 351 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The fourteen akusala cetasikas which arise with the akusala cittas in various combinations can be classified in different groups. Each of these classifications shows a particular aspect and function of the akusala cetasikas. Some cetasikas occur in several of these groups, and each time a different aspect is shown. Attachment occurs in all of these groups and this reminds us of the many ways of clinging to different kinds of objects. One of the groups of defilements is the åsavas. Åsava can be translated as canker, poison or intoxicant. There are four åsavas (Dhammasangaùi §1096-1100): * "the canker of sensuous desire, kåmåsava the canker of becoming, bhavåsava the canker of wrong view, diììhåsava the canker of ignorance, avijjåsava" * The Atthasåliní (I, Part I, Chapter II, 48) explains that åsavas flow from the senses and the mind. In all planes where there is nåma arising åsavas occur, even in the highest plane of existence which is the fourth arúpa-brahma plane. The åsavas are like liquor which has fermented for a long time, the Atthasåliní explains. The åsavas are like poisonous drugs or intoxicants. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 56) states that the åsavas are exuding “from unguarded sense-doors like water from cracks in a pot, in the sense of constant trickling”. The åsavas keep on flowing from birth to death, they are also flowing at this moment. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54328 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 2:34am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 Dear Scott, All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in kalapas. Sound (sadda) comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. It always arises with pathavi (hardness, apo(fluidity) tejo(heat)vayo(air, vibration) and some other elements. These kalapa are extraordinarily tiny and come together only for a billionth or trillionth of a second according to the Theravada texts. Nina has mentioned the various conditions for rupa. Because these conditions keep arising so too does rupa keep rearising. And that continual rearising is why when we stand on the ground we don't fall through it (usually). So what we call a wall is composed of countless trillions of kalapas all arising and vanishing so quickly, and each one separated by space, according to the ancient texts. For the attainer of khandha parinibbana the universe(in the sense of teh khandhas and ayantanas) ceases as you say. But in my post I was being more general- in that without the conditions to keep matter arising then this whole universe would vanish immediately. Of course these conditions are not going to suddenly cease - so the universe will keep on keeping on. For now anyway. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > Thank you. Material elements, then, are as they are. Elemental > kalapas are the substrate(?) forming the basis for dhammas we later > determine to be "wall" or "people." That element/s which is/are > strong condition/s what we later experience (hardness or heat). This > is, perhsps, phassa? > > Attaining nibbana might amount, then(?), to a systematic layering of > the set of conditions necessary and sufficient to cause the > disappearance of this earth and the whole material universe, from the > standpoint of the attainer. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 54329 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 2:38am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > >... > > Dear Scott, > > Rupa is very ephemeral. It arises and passes away millions of times > > in a split second- but because of continuity there is illusion of > > something lasting. The earth we walk on is not as solid and lasting > > as we might think. > > Robert > > > > > > > Hallo Robert, Scott > > Robert, I have two remarks on your answer to Scott. > > First: you do not say what in fact 'rupa' is; many times is it > translates as 'matter', that is not correct, the best one I know > is: 'experienced material quality' > > Second, you say rupa "arises and passes away millions of times in a > split second"; I know commentaries are using that number, but the > Buddha did not. Also it's neurologically not possible. Your answer is > correct when saying rupa arises and passes away hundreds of times > in a split second" > > Metta > > Joop > ___________ Dear Joop, I do not like 'experienced material quality' as a translation as that is only one part of rupa. Rupa includes all matter, all material phenomena, at anytime, anyplace. I think it makes no difference to rupa whether something is nuerologically impossible. Rupa arises and passes away billions and trillions of time in a split second accoring to the ancients, I think they are right. Robertk 54330 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:19am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 214 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 214 214. 2. 'As to distinction': as to the distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, 'aggregates' is said without distinguishing. 'Aggregates [as objects] of clinging' is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to the clingings, according as it is said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen ... And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Any kind of materiality whatever... And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever ... These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S.iii,47). ****** N: The Commentary to this sutta (S.iii,47, quoted by B.Bodhi on p.1059 of ³Connected Discourses²): “Spk:...’With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for the taints by way of object; so too that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) means what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its object]. ------ N: All five khandhas can be objects of clinging, that is the meanning of ³with cankers². Ven. Bodhi gives an explanation in his notes to this sutta. He explains that the five khandhas of clinging are included within the five khandhas. He states: ³...for all members of the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are khandha which are anaasava anupaadaaniya, Œuntainted and not subject to clinging¹. On first consideration it would seem that the Œbare aggregates are those of the arahant who has eliminated the aasava and upaadaana. However, in the Abhidhamma all ruupa is classified as saasava [with cankers] and upaadaaniya [subject to clinging], and so too the resultant (vipaaka) and functional (kiriya) mental aggregates of the arahant (see Dhs §§1103, 1219).² He explains that the only khandhas that are untainted and not subject to clinging are the eight types of lokuttara cittas. He states: ³The reason for this is that saasava and upaadaaniya do not mean Œaccompanied by taints and by clinging,¹ but Œcapable of being taken as objects of the taints and of clinging¹, and the arahant¹s mundane aggregates can be taken as objects of the taints and clinging by others (See As 347).² N: Someone may also cling to the kiriyacittas and vipaakacittas of an arahat and to the sight of an arahat. An example is Vakkali who was very attached to the sight of the Buddha. The only objects that cannot be objects of clinging are the nine lokuttara dhammas: nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana. The eight lokuttara cittas are included in the naama-kkhandhas that are anaasava, without taints, that is feeling, saññaa, the other cetasikas (sa.nkhaarakkhandha) and viññaa.na, that is citta. In the following paragraph it is explained why ruupakkhandha has been classified as one of the five khandhas as well as one of the five khandhas of clinging. **** Nina. 54331 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:20am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > ... Hallo Scott, Robert Your questions are clear and well formulated. I don't have final answers on rupa and the relation nama-rupa. Some information and an opinion: - 'Rupa' can not simply be translated with 'Matter'; that's not correct - An other (little bit oldfashioned) translation is 'Form' - Nina has written a readable and clear ebook on rupa as she has written you in #54326 - In august I posted a message on it, see below This four points above did till now not give problems with other DSG- participants. But the three points below are my personal opinions; especially the last one (I'm not an orthodox Theravadin). - My translation "experienced material quality" is not because my knowledge of Pali is superior, not at all; it is because in my opinion it's the only translation that don't give cognitive dissonance with natural science, and that's no problem because the Buddha was not interested in natural science. His only interest was liberating his hearers and for example explaining the anatta- truth. "Experienced" is used because the material quality had to be understood phenomenologically and not ontologically. - I my opinion it's not "all in the mind"; it's the fact that the Dhamma is not about physics. - The Teachings of the Buddha can be explained in different ways. I think that a literal interpreting explanation that doesn't fit in the results of modern natural science (for example Big Bang theory, particle physics, evolutionary theory), is not correct. Or more subjective: that such an explanation is not mine. Robert, when you say "the ancients", yoy were not very specific. It's not the Buddha, I think you mean Buddhaghosa for example? Metta Joop 54332 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q>Re: Vism.XIV,214 nilovg Hi Larry, as so often, your short remark invites to reflection. It took me a while to understand your intention. op 05-01-2006 02:07 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Htoo: "Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help > understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and > pancupaadaanakkhandhaa?" L: It has to do with the two "L's". One is Larry and one is not :-) --------- N: Larry is the five khandhas of clinging, and he thinks that he is not the bare five khandhas. But see Ven. Bodhi's explanation: of clinging means: being subject to clinging. Yes, we cling to our own khandhas. The lokuttara cittas have not arisen, thus, there are not yet khandhas that are without clinging, bare khandhas. Larry, may there once be for you also the other L: khandhas without clinging. Nina. 54333 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience dacostacharles Hi Joop, You argued well based on the description you had. In this case the anatta-theory does agree with the "phenomenal self" and the "transparent self" models. Joop: As quoted: "The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process", there is hardly a difference between this description and that of the five aggregates (khandas) and "phenomenal self" is not a self but a label of the model (the theory) of Metzinger My problem now is that this could be said of everything we consider real (even from an Abidharma prospective). Everything in existence is, in reality, "an ongoing process" that gives an illusion of solidness, perceptible-ness. All are interacting compounded entities giving rise to processes that we "label" as this and that. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta Damsbovaenget 25 DK-5230 Odense M Denmark <...> -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop <...> Hallo Charles About the quote: "According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model." In Being No One, Metzinger, a German philosopher, draws strongly on neuroscientific research to present a representationalist and functional analysis of what a consciously experienced first-person perspective actually is." <...> 54334 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Scott) - In a message dated 1/5/06 5:36:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Scott, > All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in kalapas. Sound (sadda) > comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. It always arises with pathavi > (hardness, apo(fluidity) tejo(heat)vayo(air, vibration) and some > other elements. These kalapa are extraordinarily tiny and come > together only for a billionth or trillionth of a second according to > the Theravada texts. Nina has mentioned the various conditions for > rupa. Because these conditions keep arising so too does rupa keep > rearising. And that continual rearising is why when we stand on the > ground we don't fall through it (usually). So what we call a wall is > composed of countless trillions of kalapas all arising and vanishing > so quickly, and each one separated by space, according to the > ancient texts. > > For the attainer of khandha parinibbana the universe(in the sense of > teh khandhas and ayantanas) ceases as you say. But in my post I was > being more general- in that without the conditions to keep matter > arising then this whole universe would vanish immediately. Of course > these conditions are not going to suddenly cease - so the universe > will keep on keeping on. For now anyway. > Robert > ======================== Robert, you write "All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in kalapas. Sound (sadda) comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. It always arises with pathavi (hardness, apo(fluidity) tejo(heat)vayo(air, vibration) and some other elements. These kalapa are extraordinarily tiny and come together only for a billionth or trillionth of a second according to the Theravada texts." This seems to be a conceptual portrait of an external world of matter, experienced or not (i.e., phenomenalist or objectivist), that is an alternative to modern chemistry and physics. It has nothing to do with the tilakhana, paticcasamupada, the four ariya-sacca, or vimutti. Why should such a physics be preferable? (The ancient world didn't do anything with that physics.) Also, did the kalapa theory, an early molecule idea, come from the Buddha? I haven't come across it in the suttas. Is it in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54335 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert (and Joop) - In a message dated 1/5/06 5:39:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Joop, > I do not like 'experienced material quality' as a translation as > that is only one part of rupa. Rupa includes all matter, all > material phenomena, at anytime, anyplace. > I think it makes no difference to rupa whether something is > nuerologically impossible. Rupa arises and passes away billions and > trillions of time in a split second accoring to the ancients, I > think they are right. > Robertk > > ========================= Here you are quite explicit in countenancing an external world of objective material elements that blazingly arise and pass away. You say that "the ancients," by whom I presume you mean Buddhaghosa and the earlier commentators, described these rupas as arising and passing away "billions and trillions of time in a split second," and you say that you think they are right. What is it that makes you think they are right? Do you, yourself, perceive these rupas and somehow know that they are "out there" and not just elements of your experience? If not, what is the basis for your belief in the correctness of this physics theory? With metta, Howard P.S. In both of your posts on this topic that I have replied to, there is something that you do [and you generally do this, and not just in these posts] that I am impressed by and that I feel compelled to congratulate you on. You do not state what you say is uncontestable fact. You consistently use phrases like "according to the ancient commentaries," and you never say that these statements are true but that you believe them. By so doing, you are protecting the truth! :-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54336 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 6:10am Subject: Re: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon > >I prefer not to repeat myself and not discuss linguistic >misunderstandings. >Waiting for your separately message on "the accumulations point" I >will make one remark > >Jon: "Nevertheless, the particular sequence of: >(1) inclination/intention to do akusala, followed by >(2) kusala resolution not to do so >is one that everyone is familiar with, I'm sure. How would you >describe it?" > >Joop: You have explained that "inclination" in your vocubalaire >means "intention" and not - what I thought - something semi-permanent >as "tendency" and so has nothing to do with 'accumulations". In that >case I have only one problem: There is no need to use to two-step- >sequende, I prefer one step: Intention to do kusala. >So I am not everyone. > > It could also be stated in a 'one-step' formulation as 'the kusala resolution to refrain from akusala about to be done' (this also avoids the double-negative). As I said before, there is scope for the manner of expression. In the texts the different kinds of kusala are frequently treated separately, and it is sometimes useful to have terminology that distinguishes one kind from the others (the classic 3-fold division used in the suttas is dana, sila and bhavana). Jon 54337 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. nilovg Hi Joop. Remembering concepts is not the same as clinging to atta. The Buddha thought of concepts such as names without such clinging. When learning about paramatthas it should be remembered that this does not mean forgetting or denying one's life in the world. The Buddha could remember that he was in such or such life Jotipala, or a wise animal, or a King. By this means he wanted to teach us about the perfections we all have to accumulate during innumerable lives with the aim to become freed from samsara. When the Buddha mentioned his former lives the purpose always was to teach us, he always thought of our benefit. Nina. op 04-01-2006 21:09 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > "Name, status, occupation" are > concepts; and to me it's an atta that is remembered. That is more > reincarnation than rebirth, more hinduistic or tibetan than theravada- > buddhistic to me. 54338 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q>Re: Vism.XIV,214 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Larry, and Htoo) - In a message dated 1/5/06 6:21:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Larry, > as so often, your short remark invites to reflection. It took me a while to > understand your intention. > op 05-01-2006 02:07 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > >Htoo: "Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help > >understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and > >pancupaadaanakkhandhaa?" > > L: It has to do with the two "L's". One is Larry and one is not :-) > --------- > N: Larry is the five khandhas of clinging, and he thinks that he is not the > bare five khandhas. But see Ven. Bodhi's explanation: of clinging means: > being subject to clinging. Yes, we cling to our own khandhas. The lokuttara > cittas have not arisen, thus, there are not yet khandhas that are without > clinging, bare khandhas. > Larry, may there once be for you also the other L: khandhas without > clinging. > Nina. > ======================= Nina, thank you for getting what Larry was saying and passing it on to the list. You were far better than I on this, because I had no idea at all what Larry was saying! ;-)) It is so good that you did figure it out, because I think that what Larry was driving at is a really excellent and interesting point!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54339 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 7:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Robert, you write "All material phenomena (matter, rupa) come in > kalapas. Sound (sadda) comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. It always arises with > pathavi > (hardness, apo(fluidity) tejo(heat)vayo(air, vibration) and some other > elements. These kalapa are extraordinarily tiny and come together only for a > billionth or trillionth of a second according to the Theravada texts." > This seems to be a conceptual portrait of an external world of matter, > experienced or not (i.e., phenomenalist or objectivist), that is an > alternative to modern chemistry and physics. It has nothing to do with the tilakhana, > paticcasamupada, the four ariya-sacca, or vimutti. Why should such a physics be > preferable? (The ancient world didn't do anything with that physics.) Also, > did the kalapa theory, an early molecule idea, come from the Buddha? I haven't > come across it in the suttas. Is it in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? +++++++++++++++++++++++ > Here you are quite explicit in countenancing an external world of objective material elements that blazingly arise and pass away. You say that "the ancients," by whom I presume you mean Buddhaghosa and the earlier commentators, described these rupas as arising and passing away "billions and trillions of time in a split second," and you say that you think they are right. What is it that makes you think they are right? Do you, yourself, perceive these rupas and somehow know that they are "out there" and not just elements of your experience? If not, what is the basis for your belief in the correctness of this physics theory? > ++++++++ Dear Howard, Buddhaghosa edited the ancient Abhidhamma commentaries: much of which were recited at the first council of arahants a few months after the passing of the Buddha. In the Visuddimagga he gives the example of a hair from the head. Buddhaghosa writes: "KALAPATO ti ya ayama kesa loma ti adina nayena visatiya akarehi pathavidhatu, pittam semham ti adina nayaena dvadasakarehi apodhatu niddittha. Tattha yasma: Vanno gandho raso oja catasso capi dhatuyo/atthadhammasamodhana hoti kesa ti sammuti/tesam yeva vinibhoghoga natthi kesa ti sammuti/ Tasma kesa pi attahadhmmakalapamattam eva" VIS. XI 88 "what in common parlance is called head hair is only a collection of eight material elements, namely the four elements (Pathavi, apo, tejo, apo) and color odor taste and nutritive essence. From the combination of these comes the common usage head hair. Which is attha-dhamma-KALAPA-matta (merely a collection of eight elements."" The next paragraph says: ""In this body the pathavi-dhatu (earth element)-taken as reduced to fine dust and pounded to the size of the smallest paramanu (atom) might amount to a dona measure full" [It means if a human were ground down to the tiniest atoms he would only full up a small cup-} The Vibhanga atthakatha (commentary to the Vibhanga Abidhamma) says that the size of a paramanu is 1/581,147,136th part of the width of a finger. "therfore a paramanu as a particle of space is..the province of the divine eye[only]". ( I hope this answers your question as to whether I experience this directly) With regard to how ephemeral matter is this too is explained. I use Pali Text Society translation of the Dhatu-Katha(third book of the Abhidhamma) for this. To save time searching through the commentary I quote from U Thein Nyun who wrote the preface: "the elments do not posses the characteristics of living beings. They arise and cease within an exceedingly short period of time. In the wink of an eye or a flash of lightening, which lasts for a microsecond the mental elements arises and cease a trillion times. This is just an estimate, the subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10 to the power of 15. As regards the material elements, since they endure for 17 thought moments they arise and cease 10 to the power of 21 divided by 17 times per second (app=58,000,000,000,000,000,000/second). But because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" .endquote Pali text society. I hope this answers your question as to why these matters as so relevant to comprehending the Tilakhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta). Robertk 54340 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop. ......... > When the Buddha mentioned his former lives the purpose always was to teach > us, he always thought of our benefit. > Nina. Hallo Nina That's good you mention this. It's what I call 'skilful means'f the Buddha. The Buddha could talk about former lives because he knew people in the Inida where he lived 2500 years ago were at ease with the idea 'reincarnation'. But if He had lived in countries (for example western) where reincarnation or rebirth is a strange concept, He should not have talked about it, because it could not do its liberating work. Metta Joop 54341 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - I appreciate the effort you have gone to in providing all the detail in your reply. What I read in it, however, is just more details of the same commentarial theory. I don't understand why this theory should be believed. I don't understand what evidence there is for it. It is a theory about objective material substance, and it calls for some means of verification, it seems to me. Also, I see no basis given for any of this in the suttas, and a very meager basis given in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. What you gave in that regard is the following: <> Now, as to the speed with which rupas arise as compared to conventional objects, I have no doubt of the rapid passing of material forms. But that does not require a physics/chemistry, rudimentary or advanced in the modern scientific sense, of external matter. What I question is the detailed physics theory of external rupic clumps (kalapas), its basis in the direct teachings of the Buddha, and its relevance to liberation. Most particularly, I was inquiring into *why* you believe this theory. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/5/06 10:51:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >> Robert, you write "All material phenomena (matter, rupa) > come in > >kalapas. Sound (sadda) comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. It > always arises with > >pathavi > >(hardness, apo(fluidity) tejo(heat)vayo(air, vibration) and some > other > >elements. These kalapa are extraordinarily tiny and come together > only for a > >billionth or trillionth of a second according to the Theravada > texts." > > This seems to be a conceptual portrait of an external world > of matter, > >experienced or not (i.e., phenomenalist or objectivist), that is > an > >alternative to modern chemistry and physics. It has nothing to do > with the tilakhana, > >paticcasamupada, the four ariya-sacca, or vimutti. Why should such > a physics be > >preferable? (The ancient world didn't do anything with that > physics.) Also, > >did the kalapa theory, an early molecule idea, come from the > Buddha? I haven't > >come across it in the suttas. Is it in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Here you are quite explicit in countenancing an external world of > objective material elements that blazingly arise and pass away. You > say that > "the > ancients," by whom I presume you mean Buddhaghosa and the earlier > commentators, described these rupas as arising and passing > away "billions and > trillions of > time in a split second," and you say that you think they are right. > What is > it that makes you think they are right? Do you, yourself, perceive > these rupas > and somehow know that they are "out there" and not just elements of > your > experience? If not, what is the basis for your belief in the > correctness of this > > physics theory? > > >++++++++ > Dear Howard, > > Buddhaghosa edited the ancient Abhidhamma commentaries: much of > which were recited at the first council of arahants a few months > after the passing of the Buddha. In the Visuddimagga he gives the > example of a hair from the head. Buddhaghosa writes: > "KALAPATO ti ya ayama kesa loma ti adina nayena visatiya akarehi > pathavidhatu, pittam semham ti adina nayaena dvadasakarehi apodhatu > niddittha. Tattha yasma: Vanno gandho raso oja catasso capi > dhatuyo/atthadhammasamodhana hoti kesa ti sammuti/tesam yeva > vinibhoghoga natthi kesa ti sammuti/ Tasma kesa pi > attahadhmmakalapamattam eva" > > I hope this answers your question as to why these matters as so > relevant to comprehending the Tilakhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta). > Robertk > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54342 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/5/06 11:32:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Nina > > That's good you mention this. It's what I call 'skilful means'f the > Buddha. > The Buddha could talk about former lives because he knew people in > the Inida where he lived 2500 years ago were at ease with the > idea 'reincarnation'. > But if He had lived in countries (for example western) where > reincarnation or rebirth is a strange concept, He should not have > talked about it, because it could not do its liberating work. > > Metta > > Joop > ========================== Except that the Buddha taught that right speech must be not only u seful and uttered at the right time and in the right manner, but must also, most importantly, be truthful. Speech that is knowingly untrue I believe was considered unskillful (akusala) by the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54343 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 4:57am Subject: Definition of Right Speech/Joop upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - With regard to "skillful means" and the alleged possibility of that including "false but useful" statements, there are the following two excerpts: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."— SN XLV.8 "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."— AN V.198 With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54344 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - rupas nilovg Hi Howard, awaiting Rob' s answer, I could also add something. op 05-01-2006 15:06 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ======================== > Robert, you write "All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in > kalapas.... > This seems to be a conceptual portrait of an external world of matter, > experienced or not (i.e., phenomenalist or objectivist), that is an > alternative to modern chemistry and physics. It has nothing to do with the > tilakhana, > paticcasamupada, the four ariya-sacca, or vimutti. ------ N: Colour does not float in the air alone, it needs the support of the four great Elements and other rupas. We find the whole list of rupas in the Dhammasangani (your p. 158. ff). The Great Elements and derived rupas, that is, the other rupas dependent on them. Dependent, to me it means that the derived rupas arise together with the Great Elements. There are groups. In the Patthana under sahajata paccaya, conascence condition, conascent rupas are classified. All the details about Kalapas we find in the Commentaries. ------- H: Why should such a physics > be > preferable? ------ N: the purpose is not physics but to show conditions. We cling to the body, but the study of rupas can help us that our body is different rupas arising and falling away. We learn that rupas condition bodily movement, speech postures. It is explains that the senses and sense objects are rupas. We become excited about what is only some rupas arising and falling away. See the simile of the puppet in the Selasutta: In the "Kindred Sayings"(I, Sagåthå-vagga, V, Suttas of Sisters, § 9), in the "Selå-sutta", we read that at Såvatthí Måra addressed Sister Selå: Who was it that made the human puppet¹s form? Where is the maker of the human doll?.153 Whence, tell me, has the puppet come to be? Where will the puppet cease and pass away? Selå answered: Neither self-made the puppet is, nor yet By other wrought is this ill-plighted thing. By reason of a cause it came to be, By rupture of a cause it dies away. Like a certain seed sown in the field, Which, when it comes upon the taste of earth, And moisture likewise, by these two grows, So the five khandhas, the elements, And the six spheres of sense -- even all these, By reason of a cause they came to be; By rupture of a cause they die away. Then Måra the evil one thought: "Sister Selå knows me", and sad and sorrowful he vanished there and then. ---- N: I know that you do not find 'rupas out there' acceptable. At one of my first sessions with Kh Sujin we were talking about hardness impinging on the bodysense and I asked whether this hardness was inside or outside. She asnwered that it did not matter. We do not have to think of inside or outside, but the characteristic of hardness can be understood as not belonging to me or my body, only a kind of rupa. So, the study of rupa pertains to insight, to understanding the four noble Truths. If we are aware only of nama, not of rupa, we take rupa for self. Nina. 54345 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) nilovg Hi TG , perhaps what I wrote in my 'Conditions" can be of help. I would not use the term direct condition. Rather: a condition that bears on the present. See below. op 04-01-2006 21:14 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > TG: I'd be interested in how "absence condition" is a "direct condition"? > I don't believe it can be. ------ N quotes: **** Nina 54346 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:03pm Subject: [dsg] Q>Re: Vism.XIV,214 matheesha333 Deaer Htoo, Larry, Nina, Howard, > > >Htoo: "Dear Larry, do you have any similes or anything that can help > > >understand the difference between pancakkhandhaa and > > >pancupaadaanakkhandhaa?" > > > > L: It has to do with the two "L's". One is Larry and one is not :-) M: Nina, I wonder if you remember the very first conversation we had when I first joined this group. You told me that there was clinging every moment. Experientially I thought it was true but i could not find sutta to confirm it. Then a few days back it struck me that the five aggregates of clinging was the answer! The Buddha: "These are the five clinging-aggregates: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate... These five clinging- aggregates are rooted in desire...." A certain monk: "Is it the case that clinging and the five clinging- aggregates are the same thing, or are they separate?" The Buddha: "Clinging is neither the same thing as the five clinging- aggregates, nor are they separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there...." The monk: "What is the cause, what is the condition, for the discernibility of the form aggregate... feeling aggregate... perception aggregate... fabrications aggregate... consciousness aggregate?" The Buddha: "The four great existents [the properties of earth, water, fire, & wind] are the cause & condition for the discernibility of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause & condition for the discernibility of the feeling... perception... fabrications aggregate. Name & form are the cause & condition for the discernibility of the consciousness aggregate." [MN 109] M: If there is no clinging to the five aggragates there is less attention, interest invested in the five senses and the mind. The mind is at peace within itself, uninterested in anything, cooled, not caught up in the outside world, contented, having seen all there is to see. There is little addition to khandas, no mad proliferation. metta Matheesha 54347 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:12pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 214 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 214 > > > 214. 2. 'As to distinction': as to the distinction between aggregates > and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction > between them? Firstly, 'aggregates' is said without distinguishing. > 'Aggregates [as objects] of clinging' is said distinguishing those that > are subject to cankers and are liable to the clingings, according as it > is said: > classified as one of the five khandhas as well as one of the five khandhas > of clinging. > **** > Nina. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, It is now very clear. But if there are similes please let me know. With respect, Htoo Naing > 54348 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:23pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 608 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Sammaa-sati or right mindfulness is 4 satipatthaana or four foundations of mindfulness. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. The first three foundations have been dealt with. There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (niivara.na) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandhaa) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases (aayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths (sacca = 99 saccaa contemplation) ------ ++108 contemplations on dhamma These can only be done when in meditation. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54349 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 5:57am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - body and rock scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, ... > S: May I know > > where there is a list of different types of rupa? > ------- > N: I wrote an Intro to Rupas, see Rob K's web: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Rupa%201.htm > The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena. > > On the same web, from Survey of Paramattha dhammas, I quote: > > > > Summarizing the twentyeight kinds of r�pa, they are: ... Dear Nina, Thank you very much. I'm reading and there's a lot. One question (of many): Of what significance is the statement that "a sabhaava ruupa lasts as long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another?" I'm thinking that, with the right sort of concentration, one would then be able to "see" the arising and falling away of a given sabhaava ruupa, given this temporal differential. Of course I realise that I'm likely taking a too literal view and failing to account for the complex inter-relatedness of things. Sincerely, Scott. 54350 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 6:25am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Scott, > All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in kalapas. Sound (sadda) > comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. ... Dear Robert, Thank you. Using the example of sound, I understand sound to be rupa. Is this correct? If so, then you show that sound is further divisible into the elements which make up the kalapa - the nonad called "sadda-navaka." Which is the dhamma here? Is "sound" still a concept while the experience we call "sound" - that is conditioned by sadda-navaka - the absolute aspect? Sincerely, Scott. 54351 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 6:33am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: ... But the three points below are my personal opinions; > especially the last one (I'm not an orthodox Theravadin). > > - My translation "experienced material quality" is not because my > knowledge of Pali is superior, not at all; it is because in my > opinion it's the only translation that don't give cognitive > dissonance with natural science, and that's no problem because the > Buddha was not interested in natural science. His only interest was > liberating his hearers and for example explaining the anatta- > truth. "Experienced" is used because the material quality had to be > understood phenomenologically and not ontologically. > - I my opinion it's not "all in the mind"; it's the fact that the > Dhamma is not about physics. > - The Teachings of the Buddha can be explained in different ways. I > think that a literal interpreting explanation that doesn't fit in the > results of modern natural science (for example Big Bang theory, > particle physics, evolutionary theory), is not correct. Or more > subjective: that such an explanation is not mine. ... Dear Joop, Thank you. You do seem to favour the phenomonological over the ontological (practise over theory?) "Dhamma is not about physics;" is physics about dhamma? Sincerely, Scott. 54352 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 11:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Principle of Dependent Arising vs the 12 Fold Chain dacostacharles Hi all, I have to support TG. I agree that DO can also be applied to all conditioned states (e.g. anger or even happiness). Rob M: I understand dependent origination as a description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't see dependent origination as having context when discussing the components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a thought process. TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a 'principle' that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: This being, that is, with the arising of this that arises. This not being, that is not, with the ceasing of this that ceases. The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising (This being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha does so numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all conditioned states and therefore mental states. BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- ... TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a 'principle' that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: This being, that is with the arising of this, that arises This not being, that is not with the ceasing of this, that ceases The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising (This being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha does so numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all conditioned states and therefore mental states. BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. Thanks TG 54353 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi all, It could be argued that the "12 linked chain of Dependent co-arising" (12 Fold Chain, or the Chain) is an example of DO. The principle/concept of DO is more like the principle of "Cause & Effect" and the Chain ... Karma. It could also be argued that the "links in the Chain" are the actual elements of DO. If this was true, either elements are missing, symbolic, don't have to arise, or DO does not take place in Non-returners and Arhants. I have seen the 12 links presented in so many different ways (including with additional different links). For that reason, I prefer giving DO and the 12 links a much more flexible definition. However, I am mainly interested in how it can be used at the time at need it, and not so much in that it should be seen as a fixed concept. It can also be argued that samsara is nothing more than mental states. Therefore, anger is suffering, pleasure is suffering, etc..., and they all get old and die. Some are even reborn. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Rob M Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most things... ... DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? The Suttas show the Buddha performing DO analysis on all sorts of things that are not the 12 fold chain. 54354 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 1:54pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > ..... > Dear Joop, > > Thank you. You do seem to favour the phenomonological over the > ontological (practise over theory?) "Dhamma is not about physics;" is > physics about dhamma? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hallo Scott, As far as I understand your question, the answer is: no. Metta Joop 54355 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Nina) - > .. > Except that the Buddha taught that right speech must be not only u > seful and uttered at the right time and in the right manner, but must also, most > importantly, be truthful. Speech that is knowingly untrue I believe was > considered unskillful (akusala) by the Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard Hallo Howard I don't know how to say it more clear: I don't this part of the Teachings, about reincarnation. Metta Joop 54356 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 2:08pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 609 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Sammaa-sati or right mindfulness is 4 satipatthaana or four foundations of mindfulness. They are 1. contemplating on the body 2. contemplating on the feeling 3. contemplating on the mind 4. contemplating on the dhamma. The first three foundations have been dealt with. There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 1. Nivarana Pabba or 'section on hindrances' There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. There are 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivaranas or hindrances or obstructions. 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obsturction by sense-desiring thought) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by malevolent thought) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth-torpor thought) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana(obs. by upset-worrying thought) 5. vicikiccha nivarana (obstruction by suspicion or sceptical doubt) What do they obstruct? They obstruct reaching magga naana. They hinder arising of magga nana. But they are not self. They are just dhamma. They arise when in meditation that is why they are called 'obstructions to magga naana'. 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivaranas or obstructions are 1. It is present now. 2. It is not present now. 3. It arises anew because of unwise attention. 4. It vanishes temporarily because of wise attention. 5. It is eradicated because of higher naana (magga naana). So there are 25 contemplations. Is this possible to note in such a way while meditators are still not ariyas? Mahasatipatthana sutta describes all that can be done. The last contemplation is for ariya of different stages. Because they do know that when magga naana arises 'permanent vanishment of respective nivarana'. So that permanent eradication is noted by respective ariyas and for puthujana or ordinary people or beings they just note that if sotapatti/ sakadagami/ anagami / arahatta magga arise so and so nivarana will be eradicated. So they will be doing dhammanupassana on nivarana with sutamaya (learned) and cintamaya (thought out) wisdom as the 5th contemplation on nivarana. As there are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances then there are 25 contemplations on nivarana or obstructions or hindrances. These can only be done when in meditation. If not in meditation, these thoughts cannot be called obstructions but just as thoughts. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54357 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 2:23pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard & Joop : I read your dialogue below twice. Yet, I am not sure what Howard is implying with regard to "reincarnation" of the Buddha! > > Joop(# 54342): > The Buddha could talk about former lives because he knew people in > the Inida where he lived 2500 years ago were at ease with the > idea 'reincarnation'. But if He had lived in countries (for example western) where reincarnation or rebirth is a strange concept, He should not have talked about it, because it could not do its liberating work. > >Howard: (replying to Joop in # 54342) : Except that the Buddha taught that right speech must be not only useful and uttered at the right time and in the right manner, but must also, most importantly, be truthful. Speech that is knowing ly untrue I believe was considered unskillful (akusala) by the Buddha. >Howard: (explaining further in message # 54343) : With regard to "skillful means" and the alleged possibility of that including "false but useful" statements, there are the following two excerpts: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." SN XLV.8 "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." AN V.198 .................. Tep: May I ask you to clarify your unclear implication for me, Howard? Are you implying (a)that the Buddha was truthful about his reincarnation (rebirth, according to Joop), i.e. his "former lives" were real, or (b) he was truthful that all former lives were anatta and NOT real in the ultimate sense, or (d) about what? {I might have missed something] Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > (snipped) > > > > Joop > > > ========================== > Except that the Buddha taught that right speech must be not only useful and uttered at the right time and in the right manner, but must also, most importantly, be truthful. Speech that is knowingly untrue I believe was considered unskillful (akusala) by the Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard 54358 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 3:12pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 609 ) buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - I have just one comment. >Htoo (#54356): There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. .... They obstruct reaching magga naana. They hinder arising of magga nana. But they are not self. They are just dhamma. They arise when in meditation that is why they are called 'obstructions to magga naana'. Tep: Well, magga naana comes much later. The five hindrances can be abandoned by the first jhana. ["Just as the keen-eyed man would not be able to see his reflection in these five kinds of water, so one whose mind is obsessed by the five hindrances does not know and see as it is his own good, the good of others or the good of both (S.v,121-24). Although there are numerous defilements opposed to the first jhana the five hindrances alone are called its factors of abandoning". -- The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Bhikkhu Henepola Gunaratana.] http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jhanas/jhanas03.htm Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Sammaa-sati or right mindfulness is 4 satipatthaana or four > foundations of mindfulness. They are > (snipped) > > There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. There are 5 contemplations on > each of these 5 nivaranas or hindrances or obstructions. > > 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obsturction by sense-desiring thought) > 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by malevolent thought) > 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth-torpor thought) > 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana(obs. by upset-worrying thought) > 5. vicikiccha nivarana (obstruction by suspicion or sceptical doubt) > > What do they obstruct? > (snipped) > > Is this possible to note in such a way while meditators are still > not ariyas? > (snipped) 54359 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sa~n~na, accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 1/5/06 5:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Howard > > I don't know how to say it more clear: I don't this part of the > Teachings, about reincarnation. > > Metta > > Joop > ====================== Okay, that's fine. And it's clear!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54360 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q>Re: Vism.XIV,214 lbidd2 Larry: "It has to do with the two "L's". One is Larry and one is not :-)" Hi Nina, The two "L's" are lokiya and lokuttara. The khandhas subject to clinging are lokiya (mundane). Those not subject to clinging are lokuttara (supramundane). That's how I interpreted B. Bodhi's note, but I didn't want to give it away before you made your presentation. Larry 54361 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Joop) - In a message dated 1/5/06 5:27:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > Tep: May I ask you to clarify your unclear implication for me, Howard? > > Are you implying > > (a)that the Buddha was truthful about his reincarnation (rebirth, > according to Joop), i.e. his "former lives" were real, or > (b) he was truthful that all former lives were anatta and NOT real in > the ultimate sense, or > (d) about what? {I might have missed something] > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======== > =========================== What I was saying was that the Buddha in speaking to others of his past lives was *not* teaching something he considered "false but useful", because there is no such thing. I am saying that when the Buddha spoke to others of having reviewed his past lives on the night of attaining his final awakening and also of seeing the rebirthing of beings, his intention in speaking was to speak truthfully, and that the Buddha never spoke with the intention to "usefully deceive". So, what I was saying is closest to your choice (a). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54362 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 5:50pm Subject: Vism.XIV,215 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 215. Now while there is feeling, etc., both free from cankers [and subject to them],79 not so materiality. However, since materiality can be described as a [simple] aggregate in the sense of a total, it is therefore mentioned among the [simple] aggregates. And since it can be described as an aggregate [that is the object] of clinging in the sense of a total and in the sense of being subjected to cankers, that [same materiality] is therefore mentioned among the aggregates [as objects] of clinging too. But feeling, etc., are only mentioned among the [simple] aggregates when they are free from cankers. When they are subject to cankers, they are mentioned among the aggregates [as objects] of clinging. And here the meaning of the term 'aggregates as objects of clinging' should be regarded as this: aggregates that are the resort of clinging are aggregates of clinging. But here all these taken together are intended as aggregates. ------------------------------- Note 79. Burmese ed. of the Sammohavinodanii (Khandha Vibha.nga Commentary) in the identical passage, reads vedanaadayo anaasavaa pi saasavaa pi atthi. The P.T.S. and Harvard eds. read vedanaadayo anaasavaa pi atthi. ************************* 215. ettha ca yathaa vedanaadayo anaasavaapi atthi, na eva.m ruupa.m. yasmaa panassa raasa.t.thena khandhabhaavo yujjati, tasmaa khandhesu vutta.m. yasmaa raasa.t.thena ca saasava.t.thena ca upaadaanakkhandhabhaavo yujjati, tasmaa upaadaanakkhandhesu vutta.m. vedanaadayo pana anaasavaava khandhesu vuttaa. saasavaa upaadaanakkhandhesu. upaadaanakkhandhaati cettha upaadaanagocaraa khandhaa upaadaanakkhandhaati evamattho da.t.thabbo. idha pana sabbepete ekajjha.m katvaa khandhaati adhippetaa. 54363 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 6:38pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > Dear Scott, > > All material phenomena (matter, rupa)come in kalapas. Sound (sadda) > > comes in a nonad called sadda-navaka. ... > > Dear Robert, > > Thank you. Using the example of sound, I understand sound to be rupa. > Is this correct? If so, then you show that sound is further > divisible into the elements which make up the kalapa - the nonad > called "sadda-navaka." Which is the dhamma here? Is "sound" still a > concept while the experience we call "sound" - that is conditioned by > sadda-navaka - the absolute aspect? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Dear Scott, Good question. Sound (sadda) is an element, a paramattha dhamma, ultimate (absolute reality); but it always arises with other elements (in the sadda-navaka). However, when sound is experienced at the ear door only the element of sound is known by hearing consciousness. Sadda is different from the consciousness that experiences it If the sound is loud it might vibrate a window or hurt our ear,but it is not the actual sound element that is doing the vibrating/hurting, it is pathavi and other elements that associate with sound in the sadda-navaka nonad. Robert 54364 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 8:06pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Joop)- Again, thanks for your reply. > > > > Tep: May I ask you to clarify your unclear implication for me, > > Howard? > > > > Are you implying > > > > (a)that the Buddha was truthful about his reincarnation (rebirth, > > according to Joop), i.e. his "former lives" were real, or > > (b) he was truthful that all former lives were anatta and NOT real in > > the ultimate sense, or > > (d) about what? {I might have missed something] > > > Howard > > What I was saying was that the Buddha in speaking to others of his past lives was *not* teaching something he considered "false but useful", because there is no such thing. I am saying that when the Buddha spoke to others of having reviewed his past lives on the night of attaining his final awakening and also of seeing the rebirthing of beings, his intention in speaking was to speak truthfully, and that the Buddha never spoke with the intention to "usefully deceive". So, what I was saying is closest to your choice (a). > Tep: Ah ! Now it is clear that you only implied that the Buddha's reviewing of "his past lives" and "seeing the rebirthing of beings" were truthful and useful. Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? Do you know of a better theory or explanation? If you already have discussed this issue, then please just give me the corresponding post numbers. Thanks. Regards, Tep ======= 54365 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 10:08pm Subject: Further reflections on those who are 'tamable' and the various 'patients' sarahprocter... Hi James, Nina, Connie, RobK, Chris, Math, Azita & all, I was reflecting further on the good suttas some of you quoted such as the Kesi sutta and on the question James raised about ‘whether the Buddha turned ayone away as unteachable due to accumulations.’ We know that with his omniscient wisdom the Buddha ‘knows beings’ biases, he knows their underlying tendencies (aasayaanusaya ~naana), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions (adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable’ (as Nina quoted from the Path of Discrimination, ch69, 585). As you all also know, it’s often recited how the Tathagata is the “Unexcelled Trainer of tamable men, Teacher of devas and men, the Awakened One, the One skilled in teaching dhamma.” (anuttaro purisadhammasaarathi satthaa devamanussaana’m buddho bhagavaa). In other words, even a Buddha can only train those who are ‘tamable’. In the sutta Matheesha quoted from AN (Akkha~na Sutta, ‘Not the Right Time’), it also stressed that ‘there is only one right instance to lead the holy life’ and that is when a person ‘is able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings.’ In other words, not everyone who hears the Teachings, even from the Buddha, is able to benefit or is suited to becoming a monk in that life. We also read the descriptions of how the Buddha would survey the world in the early mornings with His Divine Eye to see whom he could teach and who was ripe for hearing the teachings. It's said that only beings that were veneyyaa (capable of benefiting by instruction), appeared before the Buddha's divine eye. In ‘the Buddha and his Teachings’ ch13, Narada gives the details of the Buddha’s daily routine (I believe these details can be found in the commentary to DN especially). With regard to the morning session, it says: ..... “Usually early in the morning He surveys the world with His Divine Eye to see whom he could help. If any person needs His spiritual assistance, uninvited He goes, often on foot, some times by air using His psychic powers, and converts that person to the right path. "As a rule He goes in search of the vicious and the impure, but the pure and the virtuous come in search of Him. For instance, the Buddha went of His own accord to convert the robber and murderer Angulimāla and the wicked demon Ā1avaka, but pious young Visākhā, generous millionaire Anāthapindika, and intellectual Sāriputta and Moggallāna came up to Him for spiritual guidance.” ..... Narada also gives this note on the ‘divine eye’: ..... “Buddhacakkhu constitutes the knowledge of the one's inclinations (āsaya) and the innate tendencies (āsayānusaya ñāna) and the knowledge of the dullness and keenness of faculties such as confidence, mindfulness, concentration, energy and wisdom (indriyaparoparyat-tanañān).” ***** However, I think it’s also correct to say that the Buddha sometimes taught the Dhamma knowing there would be no immediate benefit. For example, at the conclusionon of the Udumbarika-Siihanaada Sutta, D25 (Walshe transl),after listening to the Buddha it says: ..... “At these words the wanderers sat silent and upset, their shoulders drooped, they hung their heads and sat there down-cast and bewildered, so possessed were their minds by Mara. Then the Lord said: ‘Every one of these foolish men is possessed by the evil one, so that not a single one of them thinks: ‘Let us now follow the holy life proclaimed by the ascetic Gotama, that we may learn it – for what do seven days matter?’ “ ..... The Buddha knew that in such instances there would only be benefit later just as when the monks listened to the Mulapariyaya Sutta and were left dejected but needed to listen at the time in order to reduce their conceit about their knowledge first. We also read in the sutta above (DN25) and in others that the Buddha wasn’t concerned about getting disciples or making his listeners abandon their way of life. In AN 10s, 201 “Will all Beings Attain Liberation’ (Bodhi transl), we read: ..... “...the Tathaagata is not concerned with whether the entire world will be emancipated by his teaching or half of it or a third part. But the Tathaagata is aware that whosoever has been emancipated, is now emancipated or will be emancipated from the world, all these will do so by removing the five hindrances that defile the mind and weaken understanding, by firmly establishing their mnds in the four foundations of mindfulness, and by cultivating the seven factors of enlightenment in their true nature...” ***** So yes, the Buddha can only train ‘tamable men’, those with ‘little dust’ in their eyes but this doesn’t mean there’s no use in the presently ‘untamable’ in hearing the Teachings, as I think James pointed out. We can think of people like Devadatta who was ‘untamable’ in that life and was to be reborn in the avici hell realms, but would later become a Pacceka Buddha. Conditions are complex with regard to when the ‘seeds’ may ripen later. I was also just looking for the sutta about the seeds sewn in different fields and how some ripen and others don’t. I didn’t find it, but instead came across the one about the ‘Three Types of Patients’, AN, 111, 22. Let me refer to B.Bodhi’s translation because some of the commentary notes are interestingl too, stressing how even those who are ‘incurable’ can still benefit from receiving medicine.: “There are, O monks, three types of patients found in the world. What three? There is one patient: whether or not he obtains proper nourishment, proper medicine, and adequate nursing, he will not recover from his illness.” .... Later the person who won’t develop insight regardless of whether he sees a Buddha, whether or not, hears the Teachings or not, is compared to this patient. Next we read about the patient who “whether or not he obtains all these things, he will recover from his illness”, and thirdly, “there is still another patient who will recover from his illness only if he receives proper nourishment, proper medicine and adequate nursing, but not if he lacks these.” Should only this third kind of patient be attended to? No, according to the text “also the other two types of patients should be attended to.” In the same way, we read there are people (like us) who need to come across the teachings and listen a lot to them and “it is for this person, O monks, that instruction in the Dhamma has been prescribed.” Then it is stressed: “But apart from him, the two others should also be instructed in the Dhamma.” Now for the interesting commentary and other notes that BB gives: “AA (commentary to AN): ‘The first type of patient, who is incurable, should nevertheless receive nursing because he might think that, with proper care, he may yet recover. If he is neglected, he will feel resentment and harbour thoughts of ill will, which may bring him an unhappy rebirth. But if he is looked after well, he will see that everything needful and possible has been done for him, and he will ascribe his affliction to the unavoidable results of his own kamma. He will be friendly towards those who nurse him and because of these thoughts of friendliness he will have a happy rebirth. The second type – one who is sure to recover – and one only slightly ill should also be nursed, so that their recovery may be quickened.’ “ .... “According to AA, the first of the three is called ‘pada-parama’, i.e ‘one for whom the mere words (of the Teaching) are the most he can achieve’; he will not attain the stages of awakening in his present life. The second is called ‘uggha.tita~n~nu’, ie one who penetrates the truth at once when a brief instruction is given. The third type is called ‘vipacita~n~nu’, ie one who will penetrate the truth after receiving detailed and repeated instruction; this category also includes the type called ‘neyya’, who can penetrate the truth after a period of training.* These types are explained at Pug 41. AA says further that the instruction given to the first type may help him in a future existence. If the second type is instructed, it will quicken his progress towards final attainment. But the third type is definitely in need of repeated instruction and guidance.” So, only the ‘tamable’ can be tamed, but only a Buddha knows whether the right medicine given to the presently untamable might be of benefit in the future. This has turned into a long post. Thanks to all for helping me to reflect further on this theme. Metta, Sarah * p.s also see further posts under 'Neyya'(to be guided) in 'Useful Posts' ======== 54366 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 10:12pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 352 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] Are we not attached to what we see? Then there is the canker of sensuous desire, kåmåsava. Seeing experiences visible object, and shortly after seeing has fallen away there are most of the time akusala cittas rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance. When the object is pleasant there is likely to be attachment to the object because we have accumulated such a great deal of attachment. We are attached to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. We are infatuated with the objects we experience through the senses and we want to go on experiencing them. Because of our foolish attachment to what is actually impermanent we have to continue to be in the cycle of birth and death. We have to be reborn again and again until the cankers have been extinguished. The arahat has eradicated the cankers, he does not have to be reborn again. We may not understand that birth is sorrowful, but when right understanding has been developed we will see that all that is impermanent is sorrowful. We cling to all we experience through the senses, we cling to life. Clinging is deeply accumulated; even the first javana-cittas of our life were lobha-múla-cittas, cittas rooted in attachment, and this is the case for every living being. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54367 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:33am Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Howard (and Joop)- > > Again, thanks for your reply. > ... > > Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete > kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the > next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? > > Do you know of a better theory or explanation? > > If you already have discussed this issue, then please just give me the > corresponding post numbers. > Hallo Howard, Tep, Nina Howard, your remarks on "right speech" made more clear to me that we (or only "I") in DSG should distinguish intellectual efforts to understand Buddhisme, for example the Theravada Abhidhamma system ànd get clear for ourselves (or "myself") what to believe. I think I mixed those two in my remarks about remembering former lives and your question got that clear. And the more recent questions of Tep had the same function. Back to the topic, first on an intellectual level. When one takes the Abhidhamma-system serious, then one should take the Abhidhamma-system serious: not suddenly add some not-ultimate topics in the system. What is it that continues in rebirth-linking according the Abhidhamma. What I have understood the continuity is ONE citta together with many cetesikas. The one citta: death consciousness (cuti) of the dying being = rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) of the new born. And the cetasikas (even the in the life accumulated cetasikas) accompany that one citta in the rebirth-transition And what is kamma or more exact the fruit of kamma that continues from one life to the next. There are two possibilities: or there are two parallel continuity-systems between two lifes: kamma plus the citta of rebirth-transition; or it are two transcriptions of one and the same. As far as other DSG-participants are interested in my personal belief- system: I don't belief in reincarnation (something else as rebirth) in which there is some or much continuity in personality traits or even more continuity. On the intellectual Theravada-level I can say: that is atta-belief; on my personal level I say: I simply don't belief this. A second possiblility is rebirth as described above: contiuity between two lives of one citta plus accumulated cetasikas. Then the question is: what is stored in that one citta plus cetasikas? IN THE ABHIDHAMMA-SYSTEM AS I UNDERSTAND IT, ONLY PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS ARE STORED, NO CONCEPTS I write this conclusion in capitals because it's important to me; but is it my opinion or a perfect logical and spiritual conclusion from understand Abhidhamma? (Another question can be: HOW is so much information stored in one citta but that question is unanswerable: is one of the acinteyya, the 4 unthinkables: kamma-vipáka, kamma-results) Rests the idea of remembering past lives without any continuity of personality-traits, just remembering. I totally cannot understand what should be the function of such remembering; I cannot imagine any benefit of such remembering, as Nina states in her message #54337: even if I will remember a past life (it never happened), it will be useless information because it are only concepts. Or do concepts have any liberating/awakening value? Tep, perhaps this is a little bit the answer to (or opinion about) to your questions in #54364 "Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? Do you know of a better theory or explanation?" Metta Joop 54368 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:43am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 609 ) htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your reply and link. Niivarana (hindrance) by definition means 'obstruction to jhaana or magga'. I just referred to magga. Because I have recently been writing on sammaa sati or right mindfulness of Noble Eightfold Path. Yes. They are removed even by the first jhaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Htoo - > > I have just one comment. > > >Htoo (#54356): > There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. .... They obstruct reaching > magga naana. They hinder arising of magga nana. But they are not self. > They are just dhamma. They arise when in meditation that is why they > are called 'obstructions to magga naana'. > > Tep: Well, magga naana comes much later. The five hindrances can be > abandoned by the first jhana. > > ["Just as the keen-eyed man would not be able to see his reflection in > these five kinds of water, so one whose mind is obsessed by the five > hindrances does not know and see as it is his own good, the good of > others or the good of both (S.v,121-24). Although there are numerous > defilements opposed to the first jhana the five hindrances alone are > called its factors of abandoning". > -- The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Bhikkhu Henepola > Gunaratana.] > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jhanas/jhanas03.htm > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Sammaa-sati or right mindfulness is 4 satipatthaana or four > > foundations of mindfulness. They are > > > (snipped) > > > > There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. There are 5 contemplations on > > each of these 5 nivaranas or hindrances or obstructions. > > > > 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obsturction by sense-desiring thought) > > 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by malevolent thought) > > 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth-torpor thought) > > 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana(obs. by upset-worrying thought) > > 5. vicikiccha nivarana (obstruction by suspicion or sceptical doubt) > > > > What do they obstruct? > > > (snipped) > > > > Is this possible to note in such a way while meditators are still > > not ariyas? > > > (snipped) > 54369 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:51am Subject: [dsg] Q>Re: Vism.XIV,214 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Deaer Htoo, Larry, Nina, Howard, [MN 109] > > M: If there is no clinging to the five aggragates there is less > attention, interest invested in the five senses and the mind. The > mind is at peace within itself, uninterested in anything, cooled, > not caught up in the outside world, contented, having seen all there > is to see. There is little addition to khandas, no mad proliferation. > > metta > > Matheesha --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! It is crystal clear that you explained. Thank you very much for your effort and explanation. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54370 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 610 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Four foundations of mindfulness or four satipa.t.thaana are 1. contemplating on the body (kaayaanupassanaa) 2. contemplating on the feeling(vedanaanupassanaa) 3. contemplating on the mind (cittaanupassanaa) 4. contemplating on the dhamma.(dhammaanupassanaa) Regarding dhammaanupassanaa there are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 2. aggregate (khandha) There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. There are 3 contemplations on each khandha or aggregate. So there are 15 contemplations on khandhas. 1. rupakkhandhaa or aggregates of 'ruupa'(eye etc & form,sound etc) 2. vedanakkhandhaa or aggregate of feeling 3. sa~n~nakkhandhaa or aggregate of perception 4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa or aggregate of formations 5. vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa or aggregate of consciousness Like 'nivara.na dhamma' or 'hindrances to path-knowledge' these all five khandhaas or aggregates should be understood. Otherwise 'dhamma- nupassana' cannot be practised. 3 contemplations on khandhas are 1. this is such khandha 2. this is its origination (samudayo) 3. this is its dissolution (attha`ngamo) 3 contemplations on each of 5 khandhas make 15 contemplations. Along with 25 contemplations on nivarana or hindrances there will bea total of 40 dhammanupassana so far. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54371 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course -duration of rupa. nilovg Dear Scott, op 05-01-2006 14:57 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Of what significance is the statement that "a sabhaava ruupa lasts as > long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, > succeeding one another?" -------- A sense object such as visible object can be experienced by a process of cittas. Seeing arises in a process of cittas. When visible object impinges on the eyesense, it is not experienced immediately by seeing, there are other cittas arising and falling away before seeing arises. Seeing which is vipaakacitta, is followed by several more cittas and then the javanacittas arise, which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. (Details in A.D.L.) During this process visible object has not fallen away yet, since it lasts seventeen times longer than citta. When we count the last bhavangacittas arising before the sense-door process begins and the cittas that are part of a complete process there are seventeen cittas arising and falling away during the time a senseobject still 'endures'. ------- > S: I'm thinking that, with the right sort of concentration, one would > then be able to "see" the arising and falling away of a given sabhaava > ruupa, given this temporal differential. Of course I realise that I'm > likely taking a too literal view and failing to account for the > complex inter-relatedness of things. -------- N: We cannot count seventeen moments, it is too fast. Moreoever, there is no purpose to it. Counting will not lead to detachment from nama and rupa. So long as we take nama and rupa together, as a whole, we cling to the idea of self. The explanation about the duration of rupa teaches us that a sense object is experienced by a process of cittas which have different functions while they experience that object. The experience of visible object is not one long lasting moment. We may believe that we are still seeing while in reality akusala cittas have arisen already. Gradually it can be understood that the characteristic of seeing is different from the characteristic of attachment. Nina. 54372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 214 nilovg Dear Htoo, there are many, many similes in the following sections. These show us the disadvantages of the upaadanakkhandhas. Nina. op 05-01-2006 21:12 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > It is now very clear. But if there are similes please let me know. 54373 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 611 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Sammaa-sati or right mindfulness is four foundations of mindfulness or four satipa.t.thaana. They are 1. contemplating on the body (kaayaanupassanaa) 2. contemplating on the feeling(vedanaanupassanaa) 3. contemplating on the mind (cittaanupassanaa) 4. contemplating on the dhamma.(dhammaanupassanaa) Regarding dhammaanupassanaa there are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 3. 36 contemplation on sense-bases (aayatana) There are 6 sense-bases and there are 6 contemplations on each. So there are 36 contemplations on sense-bases (aayatana) 6 sense-bases are 1. cakkhaayatana (eye-sense-base) & rupaayatana (form-sense-base) 2. sotaayatana (ear-sense-base) & saddaayatana (sound-sense-base) 3. ghaanayatana(nose-sense-base) & gandhaayatana(smell-sense-base) 4. jivhaayatana(tongue-sense-base) & rasaayatana(taste-sense-base) 5. kaayaayatana(body-sense-base) & photthabbaayatana(touch-sen-base) 6. manaayatana (mind-sense-base)& dhammaayatana(mind-object-sen-base) The first in each pair is internal sense-base or ajjhattika aayatana & the second in each pair is external sense-base or bahiddha aayatana. 6 contemplations are 1. this is eye (cakkhaayatana) 2. this is form (ruupaayatana) 3. this is fetter arises from them ( 10 fetters ) 4. this is because of 'unwise attention' making arising of fetters. 5. this is because'wise attention' making dissolution of fetters. 6. this is because path-knowledge that eradicates the fetter. 1 and 2 are replaced by appropriate ayatana or sense-base. Again the last contemplation might be thought as impossible for ordinary lay people. But The Buddha described these and these are not prescription. While those who just become sotapams / sakadagams / anagams / aharats will contemplate the 6th contemplation all puthujana can contemplate with transferred knowledge. That is 'If these 'fetter of conceit' or maana samyojana vanishes forever and it never arises again that would be because of arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge or eraicating path-knowledge.' Puthujana just contemplates like that. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, and 36 contemplations on sense-bases have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 = 76 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54374 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 0:57am Subject: Detached, Alien and Remote ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: No Impermanent Construction is Worth Clinging to! A certain Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, how should one know and see, in order to eliminate all ignorance and to facilitate the emergence of real and true knowledge? In this, Bhikkhu, when one has heard that: Nothing is worth glinging to, then one directly knows everything! Having directly known everything, one fully understands everything! Having fully understood everything, one sees & regards all aspects, signs & phenomena quite differently: As something remote, as something alien, as something other, & neither as something that is 'me' nor 'mine', nor as an 'I', a 'self, or an 'Ego'! One regards the eye differently. One regards all forms differently. One regards consciousness of the seen differently. One regards all eye-contacts differently. Whatever feeling caused by eye-contact, one also experiences that quite differently... As something remote... One regards the ear differently. One regards all sounds differently. One regards consciousness of the heard differently. One regards all ear-contacts differently. Whatever feeling caused by ear-contact, one also experiences that quite differently... As something fairly foreign... One regards the nose differently. One regards all smells differently. One regards consciousness of the smelled differently. One regards all nose-contacts differently. Whatever feeling caused by nose-contact, one experiences that too quite differently. As something somewhat alien! One regards the tongue differently. One regards all tastes differently. One regards consciousness of the tasted differently. One regards any tongue-contact differently. Whatever feeling caused by tongue-contact one also experiences that quite differently... As something superficial... One regards the body differently. One regards all touches differently. One regards consciousness of the touched differently. One regards all body-contacts differently. Whatever feeling caused by body-contact, one experiences that too very differently... As something rather external! One regards the mind differently. One regards all thoughts differently. One regards consciousness of the thought differently. One regards all mental-contacts differently. Whatever feeling caused by mental-contact, one also experiences that differently... As something utterly detached !!! When, Bhikkhu, whoever knows & sees all signs thus, ignorance is left behind by him and real and true knowledge has emerged... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [50] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. The Elimination of Ignorance: 80. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54375 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) htootintnaing Dear Charles D, D.O is about origination. It is about origination. Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is depencence. So it is called Dependent Origination. The apparent link is 'death'. We have been experiencing 'death' of people very frequently. Disasters, wars, massacre, epidemic etc. Why death?[12] Death originates from 'birth' or jaati.[11] Why 'birth'? Birth originates from 'existence' or 'becoming' or 'bhava'.[10] Why 'bhava' or 'becoming'? It originates from 'clinging' or 'upaadaana'.[9] Why 'clinging' or 'upaadaana'? Clinging oroginates from 'craving' or 'tanhaa'.[8] Why 'craving'? Craving originates from 'feeling' or 'vedana'.[7] Why 'feeling'? Feeling originates from 'contact' or 'phassa'.[6] Why 'contact'? Contact originates from '6-sense-base' or 'salaayatana'.[5] Why '6-sense-base'? Sense-base originates from 'naama-ruupa'/'mentality-materiality.[4] Why 'naama-ruupa'? Naama-ruupa or mentality-materiality originates from vinnaana.[3] Why 'vi~n~naa.na' or 'consciousness'? Consciousness originates from 'formation' or 'sa`nkhaara'.[2] Why 'formation' or 'fabrication'? Formation originates from 'ignorance' or 'avijjaa'.[1] Obviously there are 12 links. Arahats are those who destroyed defilements and so there is no more avijjaa and no more tanhaa. The cycle stops. Why the cycle stops for arahat? Because there are no bridges between a) upaadaana or clinging and vedanaa or feeling b) avijjaa or ignorance and jaati or rebirth for arahats. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi all, > > It could be argued that the "12 linked chain of Dependent co- arising" (12 > Fold Chain, or the Chain) is an example of DO. The principle/concept of DO > is more like the principle of "Cause & Effect" and the Chain ... Karma. > > It could also be argued that the "links in the Chain" are the actual > elements of DO. If this was true, either elements are missing, symbolic, > don't have to arise, or DO does not take place in Non-returners and Arhants. > > I have seen the 12 links presented in so many different ways (including with > additional different links). For that reason, I prefer giving DO and the 12 > links a much more flexible definition. However, I am mainly interested in > how it can be used at the time at need it, and not so much in that it should > be seen as a fixed concept. > > It can also be argued that samsara is nothing more than mental states. > Therefore, anger is suffering, pleasure is suffering, etc..., and they all > get old and die. Some are even reborn. > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > -----Original Message----- > Hi Rob M > > Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most > things... > > ... > DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except > Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous > conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in > DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. > > TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? The Suttas show the > Buddha performing DO analysis on all sorts of things that are not the 12 fold chain. > 54376 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 612 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among sammaa-sati or right mindfulness 'the sammaa-sati or Noble Eightfold Path is four foundations of mindfulness or four satipa.t.thaana. They are 1. contemplating on the body (kaayaanupassanaa) 2. contemplating on the feeling(vedanaanupassanaa) 3. contemplating on the mind (cittaanupassanaa) 4. contemplating on the dhamma.(dhammaanupassanaa) Regarding dhammaanupassanaa there are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjha`nga) There are 7 bojjha`nga dhamma or factors of enlightenment. Bo means 'know' and here it means 'bodhi-naana'. A`nga means 'limb' or parts. So bodhi-anga or bojjha`nga means 'limbs of enlightenment'. So bojjhanga means 'enlightenment-factors'. 1. sati-sam-bojjha`nga (mindfulness factor of enlightenment) 2. dhammaavicaya-sam-bojjha`nga(investigation of phenomena factor) 3. piiti-sam-bojjha`nga (joy factor) 4. passaddhi-sam-bojjha`nga (tranquility factor) 5. viiriya-sam-bojjha`nga (effort factor) 6. samaadhi-sam-bojjha`nga (concentration factor) 7. upekkhaa-sam-bojjha`nga (equanimity factor) There are 4 contemplations on each bojjha`nga or enlightenment factor. 1. this is such(one of seven) factor that exists right now. 2. there is not such factor exists right now. 3. this factor arises because of wise fulfilment (wise attention) 4. this factor is perfected and no more need to fulfil. (magga) These dhammas are not simple things. They just arise when staying in satipatthaana. The last contemplation is for those who just develop path-knowledge. But for puthujana they can contemplate with learned knowledge. As there are 7 factors there are 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors. Again these contemplations can never be done by just learning or studying or just thinking when reading books or when reflecting on facts already read from books or heard from others. These 28 contemplations can be done only when in meditation. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, 36 contemplations on sense-bases and 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 + 28 = 104 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54377 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:49am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 612 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Among sammaa-sati or right mindfulness 'the sammaa-sati or Noble > Eightfold Path is four foundations of mindfulness > or four satipa.t.thaana. They are ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Friends, Correction. Please read 'the sammaa-sati of Noble Eightfold Path..' instead of 'the sammaa-sati or Noble Eightfold Path..' Thanks, Htoo Naing 54378 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 5:32am Subject: Re: Further reflections on those who are 'tamable' and the various 'patients' buddhatrue Hi Sarah, This is a very nice article which is well-researched. I enjoyed reading it. If you wanted to expand the theme, you might clarify the differences between "tamable" and "teachable" in regards to the Buddha's mission. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, Nina, Connie, RobK, Chris, Math, Azita & all, > > I was reflecting further on the good suttas some of you quoted such as the > Kesi sutta and on the question James raised about `whether the Buddha > turned ayone away as unteachable due to accumulations.' 54379 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/5/06 11:08:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > >Howard > > > > What I was saying was that the Buddha in speaking to others of > his past lives was *not* teaching something he considered "false but > useful", because there is no such thing. I am saying that when the > Buddha spoke to others of having reviewed his past lives on the night > of attaining his final awakening and also of seeing the rebirthing of > beings, his intention in speaking was to speak truthfully, and that the > Buddha never spoke with the intention to "usefully deceive". So, what I > was saying is closest to your choice (a). > > > Tep: > > Ah ! Now it is clear that you only implied that the Buddha's reviewing > of "his past lives" and "seeing the rebirthing of beings" were truthful and > useful. > > Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete > kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the > next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you mean here by 'discrete'. But, that aside, let me tell you of my current perspective on rebirth: First of all, if I were a materialist who believed that consciousness is a function of material substance, for example events in brain tisue, I would consider that rebirth is a pipe dream, there being no reasonable explanatory mechanismfor it anywhere on the horizon. However, I am not a materialist, I'm a phenomenalist. All that I know and all that I can in principle know is experience. There are two categories of experience, namic (mental) and rupic (physical). At any point in time, the object-content of experience could be of either sort, though the rupic is fundamental, and other concomitant mental operations are in effect at the same time. The types of mindstates one undergoes, the mode and category of our life experience, what conceptually appears as "our world" or realm of experience, is most strongly determined by our own kamma. (It is not exclusively our own kamma that is the determiner, because "lives" interact - we are not alone, but are "in this together".) We are, at any time, due largely to our own kamma, "tuned" to a particular channel of experience, the head programmer (LOL!) being our own kamma. During one lifetime (i.e., while tuned to a particular show or, better said, sequence of shows - for one lifetime is really much like a series - one experiential event flows smoothly into the next. But, more abruptly, at the "decision point" that is a physical death, there is a more abrupt transition - there is a change in channel, and that channel change, a change to a new experiential context or even new realm of experience, is what we call "rebirth". It is a key moment of kammic fruition and determination. ---------------------------------------------- > > Do you know of a better theory or explanation? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, what I believe (for the time being) is what I said above. As to its being better, or even adequate, I'll leave for others to form their opinions. ---------------------------------------------- > > If you already have discussed this issue, then please just give me the > corresponding post numbers. > > > Thanks. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 6:59am Subject: pilgrimage India, Alone with Dhamma, no 1. nilovg Alone with Dhamma Pilgrimage in India, October 2005. Chapter 1 Alone with Dhamma ³We live alone in the world², this was one of the striking points Acharn Sujin explained to us during our pilgrimage in India with hundred and twenty Dhamma-friends from Thailand and elsewhere. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, 144, Kindred Sayings on Sense, § 165, Abandoning Wrong View, translated by Ven. Bodhi) that the Buddha said: ³Bhikkhu, when one knows and sees the eye as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. When one knows and sees forms as impermanent... eye-consciousness as impermanent... eye-contact as impermanent... whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition... as impermanent, wrong view is abandoned. It is when one knows and sees thus that wrong view is abandoned.² The Buddha spoke thus with regard to all dhammas appearing through the six doorways. When a person dies we may think about the impermanence of life, but this is not the realization of the truth of impermanence, the truth that each reality that arises because of its appropriate conditions falls away. The Buddha teaches us what life really is: it is one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doorways, the doorways of the senses and the mind-door. Visible object, sound, these are dhammas appearing at this moment, but we are ignorant of the truth. Acharn Sujin said that we live alone in the world, that we believe that there are many people around us, but that this is thinking. It is hard to accept this truth. Citta thinks of relatives and friends who exist. However, in the ultimate sense, a person is citta, cetasika and rúpa. Citta is consciousness, cetasikas are the mental factors arising with the citta, and rúpa are physical phenomena. Seeing is a citta, hearing is another citta and thinking again another citta. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas arise and then fall away immediately and also the rúpas of which the body consists arise and fall away. Understanding that in the ultimate sense a person is impermanent mental phenomena and bodily phenomena does not mean that there cannot be kindness and compassion for others. On the contrary, the Buddha exhorted us to develop all kinds of kusala and to assist our fellowmen. However, at the same time we can develop understanding of what life really is: the experience of one object through one of the six doors. When there is less clinging to Œmy personality¹ we shall be more concerned for other people¹s welfare. Acharn Sujin explained that we are born alone: the rebirth-consciousness is a citta that arises and falls away and is succeeded by a following citta. There cannot be more than one citta at a time. We see alone, we think alone, we sleep alone, we die alone. The citta that falls away never returns; after passing away from this plane there is no return of the same individual. Whenever citta arises, it experiences one object and then falls away immediately. When visible object appears we take it immediately as this person or my friend, but that is thinking on account of the experience of visible object. The Buddha taught about all dhammas appearing through the six doors, and during our pilgrimage this was a topic of discussion time and again. ****** Nina. 54381 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Tep & Nina) - In a message dated 1/6/06 5:02:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Howard, Tep, Nina > > Howard, your remarks on "right speech" made more clear to me that we > (or only "I") in DSG should distinguish intellectual efforts to > understand Buddhisme, for example the Theravada Abhidhamma system ànd > get clear for ourselves (or "myself") what to believe. > I think I mixed those two in my remarks about remembering former > lives and your question got that clear. > And the more recent questions of Tep had the same function. > > Back to the topic, first on an intellectual level. > When one takes the Abhidhamma-system serious, then one should take > the Abhidhamma-system serious: not suddenly add some not-ultimate > topics in the system. -------------------------------------------- Howard: But some of the material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in some books more than others, is at the conventional level. That basket includes both. -------------------------------------------- > What is it that continues in rebirth-linking according the > Abhidhamma. What I have understood the continuity is ONE citta > together with many cetesikas. The one citta: death consciousness > (cuti) of the dying being = rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) of the > new born. And the cetasikas (even the in the life accumulated > cetasikas) accompany that one citta in the rebirth-transition --------------------------------------------- Howard: My understanding is that throughout the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma Pitaka, it is taught that nothing continues. The last moment of consciousness of one lifetime is immediately followed by what is the first moment of the next, just as is the case within a life. --------------------------------------------- > > And what is kamma or more exact the fruit of kamma that continues > from one life to the next. There are two possibilities: or there are > two parallel continuity-systems between two lifes: kamma plus the > citta of rebirth-transition; or it are two transcriptions of one and > the same. ------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that you are assuming, or looking for, some sort of storage and content-transmission. But I view that as a substantialist perspective that is not what the Buddha taught. I see him as having taught, in this regard, mere conditionality. ----------------------------------------- > > As far as other DSG-participants are interested in my personal belief- > system: > I don't belief in reincarnation (something else as rebirth) in which > there is some or much continuity in personality traits or even more > continuity. On the intellectual Theravada-level I can say: that is > atta-belief; on my personal level I say: I simply don't belief this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's fine. None of us is obliged to hold any particular beliefs. If rebirth meant the continuation of something, I also would disbelieve. ------------------------------------------- > > A second possiblility is rebirth as described above: contiuity > between two lives of one citta plus accumulated cetasikas. Then the > question is: what is stored in that one citta plus cetasikas? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't find the need for such a question. For me, it is sufficient to understand "This being the case, that arises." -------------------------------------------- > IN THE ABHIDHAMMA-SYSTEM AS I UNDERSTAND IT, ONLY PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS > ARE STORED, NO CONCEPTS > I write this conclusion in capitals because it's important to me; but > is it my opinion or a perfect logical and spiritual conclusion from > understand Abhidhamma? > > (Another question can be: HOW is so much information stored in one > citta but that question is unanswerable: is one of the acinteyya, the > 4 unthinkables: kamma-vipáka, kamma-results) ------------------------------------------ Howard: I can be of no help in this, I'm sorry to say. (Not that you requested my help! ;-) I don't accept the storage premiss to begin with. ----------------------------------------- > > > > Rests the idea of remembering past lives without any continuity of > personality-traits, just remembering. I totally cannot understand > what should be the function of such remembering; I cannot imagine any > benefit of such remembering, as Nina states in her message #54337: > even if I will remember a past life (it never happened), it will be > useless information because it are only concepts. Or do concepts have > any liberating/awakening value? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Concepts, as I view them, are our (non-arahant) means of grasping relations among dhammas. And without awareness of relations, the picture is radically incomplete. ----------------------------------------- > > > Tep, perhaps this is a little bit the answer to (or opinion about) to > your questions in #54364 "Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best > explained by discrete kamma and avijja, while the chain-like > continuity (from one rebirth to the next) is best explained > by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? Do you know of a better theory or > explanation?" > > > Metta > > Joop > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54382 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 9:27am Subject: Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most things... > > > In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:05:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > In your example, you gave many, many examples of "indirect > conditions" that do not immediately connect to the immediate moment. > The Patthana only looks at "direct" conditions. > > TG: I'd be interested in how "absence condition" is a "direct condition"? > I don't believe it can be. > ===== I guess I mean directly impacting, not impacting something which in turns impacts something else. Perhaps just a semantics issue. ===== > > > DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except > Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous > conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in > DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. > > TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? ===== The most frequently used book in my library is "Buddhist Dictionary - Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka. The most frequently .PDF that I access on my computer is the same text. It can be downloaded from: www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/palidict.pdf Unfortunately, this .pdf does not allow me to cut and paste, so I also access the on-line version of the text when I want to copy information into a message or into my class notes. This can be accessed at: www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm I interpret this dictionary as saying that DO is defined as the 12 fold chain (see definition of Paticcasamuppada). I also see conditions as the more general principle (see definition of Paccaya). ===== > > In my opinion, DO is a special sequence which is only applied to the > question, "why are we bound to samsara and how do we get 'unbound'?". > It is possible that I am wrong about this (would not be the first > time!), please point me to a Sutta where the Buddha talked about DO > in some other context. > > TG: I'll give some examples of DO analysis that I have handy but not > specifically designed for our discussion... > > > “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.â€? > (The Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 605 â€" 606, To Dighanakha, Dighanakha Sutta, #74) > “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that > which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€? > (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) > “Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathagata > (Buddha), this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of things prevails, all > phenomena are impermanent.â€? > (The Buddha . . . Book of the Gradual Sayings (GS), (Anguttara Nikaya), vol. > 1, pg. 264-265) > “Owing to difference of element there is difference of contact; owing to > difference of contact there is difference of feeling; owing to difference of > feeling there is difference of perception; owing to difference of perception > there is difference of thought; owing to difference of thought there is > difference of intention; owing to difference of intention there is difference of > obsession; owing to difference of obsession there is difference of quest; owing > to difference of quest there is difference of what is gained.â€? > (Ven. Sariputta . . . LDB, pg. 520, Expanding Decades, Dasuttara Sutta, #34) > “…Monks, it is in dependence on the diversity of elements that there arise > the diversity of perceptions; in dependence on the diversity of perceptions > that there arises the diversity of intentions; in dependence on the diversity > of intentions that there arises the diversity of contacts [contact with “ > new-unfolding phenomenaâ€? renewing the cycle of feelings, perceptions, . . . > quests.]; in dependence on the diversity of contacts that there arises the > diversity of feelings; in dependence on the diversity of feeling that there arises > the diversity of desires; in dependence on the diversity of desires that > there arises the diversity of passions; in dependence on the diversity of > passions that there arises the diversity of quests…â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 632) > “Above, across and below, > As far as the world extends, > A monk observes how things occur, > How aggregates arise and fall.â€? > (The Buddha . . . NDB, pg. 81) > TG: I'll stop here. Note the above quote specifically deals with a monk > observing DO in all things !!! This quote as much or more than the others does > seem specific to our discussion. ===== I suspect that it is a question of defintion... I see all these wonderful quotes as talking about conditionality but none of them talk about DO (as defined in my dictionary). ===== > > ===== > > Because the purpose of the teaching is to help free us from samsara, > DO is central to the teaching... one might even say that DO *is the > teaching*. I believe that is what MN28 that you quoted above is > saying. > > TG: Agree with your statement, we just don't agree on what DO entails. > > > > The scope Patthana is far more than DO. The Patthana covers > general "laws of nature" which are not linked to DO. There are also > other general "laws of nature" which are not included in the Buddha's > teaching nor in the Patthana; the "law of gravity", for example. > > TG: Again, nothing is outside the scope of DO other than Nibbana IMO. > ===== Again, defitions - nothing except Nibbana is outside of paccaya, but paticcasamuppada is a special application of paccaya. I am repeating myself, except inserting Pali words :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54383 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? nilovg Hi Howard and Joop, op 06-01-2006 17:55 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But some of the material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in some books more > than others, is at the conventional level. That basket includes both. > -------------------------------------------- N: Yes, for teaching purposes. Take the Human types, but actually it is about different accumulations in the case of different people. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My understanding is that throughout the Tipitaka, including the > Abhidhamma Pitaka, it is taught that nothing continues. The last moment of > consciousness of one lifetime is immediately followed by what is the first > moment of > the next, just as is the case within a life. > --------------------------------------------- N: Yes. I see it also that way, so are your other answers, Howard. Nina. 54384 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 7:16am Subject: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Hi, all - If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up under this ordeal. With metta, Howard P.S. My apologies for multiple copies to those of you on more than one of the lists I mailed this to. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54385 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 0:50pm Subject: Re: Request for Healing Thoughts htootintnaing Dear Howard, May your granddaughter get well soon? May you and your family be free from any worry? Bojjha`ngo satisa`nkhaato, dhammaana.m vicaaro tathaa, viiriya.m piiti passati, bojjha`nga tathaa pare. Samaadupekkha bojjhan`ga --- Pe--- Pahiina te ca aabaadha, ti.n.nanampi mahesina.m maggahataa kilesaava, pattaanuppatti dhammattam etena sacca vajjena, sotthi 'Howard's granddaughter' hotu sabbadaa. With Karu.naa, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, > has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are > very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not > well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are > so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her > welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up > under this ordeal. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. My apologies for multiple copies to those of you on more than one of the > lists I mailed this to. > 54386 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 0:55pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 352 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (d) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom ***** > (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Great! We all need to know what defilements are. If one does not know these defilements how will he be able to eradicate them? Looking forward to coming posts. With respect, Htoo Naing 54387 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Dear Htoo - In a message dated 1/6/06 3:51:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > May your granddaughter get well soon? May you and your family > be free from any worry? > > Bojjha`ngo satisa`nkhaato, dhammaana.m vicaaro tathaa, > viiriya.m piiti passati, bojjha`nga tathaa pare. > > Samaadupekkha bojjhan`ga --- Pe--- > > Pahiina te ca aabaadha, ti.n.nanampi mahesina.m > maggahataa kilesaava, pattaanuppatti dhammattam > etena sacca vajjena, sotthi 'Howard's granddaughter' hotu sabbadaa. > > With Karu.naa, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= Thank you for the kind blessing, and your expression of compassion. While I am unable to translate what you wrote, I recognize enough, including "viiriya.m piiti passati," to get the sense of what you wrote. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54388 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Healing Thoughts jonoabb Howard My thoughts are with you all, and particularly the little girl. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, all - > > If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, >has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are >very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not >well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are >so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her >welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up >under this ordeal. > >With metta, >Howard > > 54389 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 6:25am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course -duration of rupa. scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, ... > -------- > N: We cannot count seventeen moments, it is too fast. Moreoever, there is no > purpose to it. Counting will not lead to detachment from nama and rupa. > So long as we take nama and rupa together, as a whole, we cling to the idea > of self. > The explanation about the duration of rupa teaches us that a sense object is > experienced by a process of cittas which have different functions while they > experience that object. The experience of visible object is not one long > lasting moment. We may believe that we are still seeing while in reality > akusala cittas have arisen already. Gradually it can be understood that the > characteristic of seeing is different from the characteristic of attachment. > Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you. That is the heart of it. Sincerely, Scott. 54390 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 0:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Retreads dacostacharles Hi Connie A good 7-step program is "the contemplation of peace" at the sense gates. And remembering, when knocked down 6 times you must get up 7. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- James: you should lay off that LSD! ;-)) Connie: Yes, I stagger under the sway of Loathsome Sensual Desire. Know a good 12-step program? 54391 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO dacostacharles Hi Joop, It is still a good read (the two links you gave). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop Sent: Monday, 21 November, 2005 11:22 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: 2 types of DO Hallo Charles It's not clear what your question is, but I know two other treatments of DO: 1 Transcendental Dependent Arising A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 277/278 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html 2 Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination By Buddhadasa Bhikkhu http://www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/ Metta Joop 54392 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... Hi Rob M Enjoying the comments! In a message dated 1/6/2006 11:05:28 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most things... > > > In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:05:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > In your example, you gave many, many examples of "indirect > conditions" that do not immediately connect to the immediate moment. > The Patthana only looks at "direct" conditions. > > TG: I'd be interested in how "absence condition" is a "direct condition"? > I don't believe it can be. > ===== I guess I mean directly impacting, not impacting something which in turns impacts something else. Perhaps just a semantics issue. TG: I understand what you mean! -- "next to" I think. It seems sort or relative to me as to what is immediately "next to" vs separated in terms of causal chains. ===== > > > DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except > Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous > conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in > DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. > > TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? ===== The most frequently used book in my library is "Buddhist Dictionary - Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka. The most frequently .PDF that I access on my computer is the same text. It can be downloaded from: www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/palidict.pdf Unfortunately, this .pdf does not allow me to cut and paste, so I also access the on-line version of the text when I want to copy information into a message or into my class notes. This can be accessed at: www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm I interpret this dictionary as saying that DO is defined as the 12 fold chain (see definition of Paticcasamuppada). I also see conditions as the more general principle (see definition of Paccaya). TG: I don't know how we can read the same dictionary and see it 100% opposite! Read the first definition (first paragraph) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary of Paticcasamuppada --- It say exactly what I've been saying...that "paticcasamuppada 'dependent origination' is the doctrine of the conditionality of all physical and psychical phenomena..." Generally the first definition is considered the leading aspect of the word being defined. I repeat ..." ALL PHYSICAL AND PSYCHICAL PHENOMENA" ===== > > In my opinion, DO is a special sequence which is only applied to the > question, "why are we bound to samsara and how do we get 'unbound'?". > It is possible that I am wrong about this (would not be the first > time!), please point me to a Sutta where the Buddha talked about DO > in some other context. > > TG: I'll give some examples of DO analysis that I have handy but not > specifically designed for our discussion... > > > “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 605 â€" 606, To Dighanakha, Dighanakha Sutta, #74) > “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that > which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) > “Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathagata > (Buddha), this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of things prevails, all > phenomena are impermanent.â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . Book of the Gradual Sayings (GS), (Anguttara Nikaya), vol. > 1, pg. 264-265) > “Owing to difference of element there is difference of contact; owing to > difference of contact there is difference of feeling; owing to difference of > feeling there is difference of perception; owing to difference of perception > there is difference of thought; owing to difference of thought there is > difference of intention; owing to difference of intention there is difference of > obsession; owing to difference of obsession there is difference of quest; owing > to difference of quest there is difference of what is gained.â€Â? > (Ven. Sariputta . . . LDB, pg. 520, Expanding Decades, Dasuttara Sutta, #34) > “…Monks, it is in dependence on the diversity of elements that there arise > the diversity of perceptions; in dependence on the diversity of perceptions > that there arises the diversity of intentions; in dependence on the diversity > of intentions that there arises the diversity of contacts [contact with “ > new-unfolding phenomenaâ€Â? renewing the cycle of feelings, perceptions, . . . > quests.]; in dependence on the diversity of contacts that there arises the > diversity of feelings; in dependence on the diversity of feeling that there arises > the diversity of desires; in dependence on the diversity of desires that > there arises the diversity of passions; in dependence on the diversity of > passions that there arises the diversity of quests…â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 632) > “Above, across and below, > As far as the world extends, > A monk observes how things occur, > How aggregates arise and fall.â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . NDB, pg. 81) > TG: I'll stop here. Note the above quote specifically deals with a monk > observing DO in all things !!! This quote as much or more than the others does > seem specific to our discussion. ===== I suspect that it is a question of defintion... I see all these wonderful quotes as talking about conditionality but none of them talk about DO (as defined in my dictionary). TG: Since I agree with Nyanatiloka's definition, that "D.O. IS THE DOCTRINE OF THE CONDITIONALITY of all physical and psychical phenomena," I conclude that the above quotes ARE discussing DO. (Just not specifically the 12 fold chain aspects.) ===== > > ===== > > Because the purpose of the teaching is to help free us from samsara, > DO is central to the teaching... one might even say that DO *is the > teaching*. I believe that is what MN28 that you quoted above is > saying. > > TG: Agree with your statement, we just don't agree on what DO entails. > > > > The scope Patthana is far more than DO. The Patthana covers > general "laws of nature" which are not linked to DO. There are also > other general "laws of nature" which are not included in the Buddha's > teaching nor in the Patthana; the "law of gravity", for example. > > TG: Again, nothing is outside the scope of DO other than Nibbana IMO. > ===== Again, defitions - nothing except Nibbana is outside of paccaya, but paticcasamuppada is a special application of paccaya. I am repeating myself, except inserting Pali words :-) Metta, Rob M :-) Come on over to the "dark side" Rob! LOL TG 54393 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pilgrimage India, Alone with Dhamma, no 1. jonoabb Hi Nina Great to see this series come up. And for those of us who were on the trip, pleasant memories also. Jon nina van gorkom wrote: >Alone with Dhamma > >Pilgrimage in India, October 2005. > >Chapter 1 > >Alone with Dhamma > >³We live alone in the world², this was one of the striking points Acharn >Sujin explained to us during our pilgrimage in India with hundred and twenty >Dhamma-friends from Thailand and elsewhere. >... > > 54394 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/6/06 5:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Howard > > My thoughts are with you all, and particularly the little girl. ------------------------------------ Thank you, Jon. I know that is so, and I'm grateful.. ------------------------------------ > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54395 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:27pm Subject: Dependent Origination htootintnaing Dear Friends, D.O or Dependent Origination is about origination. It is about origination. Some dhamma originate from yet another dhamma. There is depencence. So it is called Dependent Origination. The apparent link is 'death'. We have been experiencing 'death' of people very frequently. Disasters, wars, massacre, epidemic etc. Why death?[12] Death originates from 'birth' or jaati.[11] Why 'birth'? Birth originates from 'existence' or 'becoming' or 'bhava'.[10] Why 'bhava' or 'becoming'? It originates from 'clinging' or 'upaadaana'.[9] Why 'clinging' or 'upaadaana'? Clinging oroginates from 'craving' or 'tanhaa'.[8] Why 'craving'? Craving originates from 'feeling' or 'vedana'.[7] Why 'feeling'? Feeling originates from 'contact' or 'phassa'.[6] Why 'contact'? Contact originates from '6-sense-base' or 'salaayatana'.[5] Why '6-sense-base'? Sense-base originates from 'naama-ruupa'/'mentality-materiality.[4] Why 'naama-ruupa'? Naama-ruupa or mentality-materiality originates from vinnaana.[3] Why 'vi~n~naa.na' or 'consciousness'? Consciousness originates from 'formation' or 'sa`nkhaara'.[2] Why 'formation' or 'fabrication'? Formation originates from 'ignorance' or 'avijjaa'.[1] Obviously there are 12 links. Arahats are those who destroyed defilements and so there is no more avijjaa and no more tanhaa. The cycle stops. Why the cycle stops for arahat? Because there are no bridges between a) upaadaana or clinging and vedanaa or feeling b) avijjaa or ignorance and jaati or rebirth for arahats. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54396 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:36pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 613 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among sammaa-sati or right mindfulness 'the sammaa-sati of Noble Eightfold Path' is four foundations of mindfulness or four satipa.t.thaana. They are 1. contemplating on the body (kaayaanupassanaa) 2. contemplating on the feeling(vedanaanupassanaa) 3. contemplating on the mind (cittaanupassanaa) 4. contemplating on the dhamma.(dhammaanupassanaa) Regarding dhammaanupassanaa there are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths Noble disciples know 4 Noble Truths very well. They see dukka (sufferings) as dukkha in right vision. They see the cause of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the path leading to cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. As there are 4 sacca or 4 truths there are 4 contemplations on Noble Truths or sacca. This can be called as saccaa-contemplation or saccaanupassanaa. For those who have not seen Noble Truth they will be just contemplating that at right time such dhamma arises internally. So does externally. That is Noble Truths arise in other individuals when there are right conditions and perfection. Sometimes dhamma may perceived as Noble Truths arise internally and externally. There are causes of these arising. And there are vanishing factors of these Noble Truths. Sometime both origination and vanishing of Noble Truths are perceived. These 4 can be seen as 99 contemplations on 4-Noble Truth. These 99 contemplations will be discussed in the coming post. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54397 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:40pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Joop )- I wrote about the 'discrete' rebirth mechanism and it was confusing. >Howard: >I don't know what you mean here by 'discrete'. Tep: It means the on/off or 0/1 characteristic of any phenomenon that arises and passes away (stops or dissolves). The arising event, for example, is just a discrete point in the time dimension. A discrete point, I think, may be called a "moment". ...................... >Howard: >There are two categories of experience, namic (mental) and rupic (physical). At any point in time, the object-content of experience could be of either sort, though the rupic is fundamental, and other concomitant mental operations are in effect at the same time. Tep: I would think differently : any experience (of a citta) is nothing but an arising or passing away of dukkha. ['The All is aflame'... 'Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs'. SN XXXV.28] ...................... >Howard: >During one lifetime (i.e., while tuned to a particular show or, better said, sequence of shows - for one lifetime is really much like a series - one experiential event flows smoothly into the next. But, more abruptly, at the "decision point" that is a physical death, there is a more abrupt transition - there is a change in channel, and that channel change, a change to a new experiential context or even new realm of experience, is what we call "rebirth". It is a key moment of kammic fruition and determination. Tep: So you say the best description (or model) of a life (of a being) is by employing both discrete and continuous events. I like the idea that rebirth is "a key moment of kammic fruition and determination". However, I would think that the rebirth event may or may not be "abrupt". The gap (in time) between the death moment and rebirth could be possible. If a gap is not possible, then how would you explain the so-called "death-like experiences" (e.g. a "dead person" woke up several hours later after a doctor-pronounced-death to tell a story of his/her experience after death)? You might think Tep is silly! ................... > >Tep: > Do you know of a better theory or explanation? ---------------------------------------------- >Howard: Well, what I believe (for the time being) is what I said above. As to its being better, or even adequate, I'll leave for others to form their opinions. Tep: Good idea, Howard. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 1/5/06 11:08:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > >Howard > > > > > > What I was saying was that the Buddha in speaking to others of > > his past lives was *not* teaching something he considered "false but > > useful", because there is no such thing. I am saying that when the > > Buddha spoke to others of having reviewed his past lives on the night > > of attaining his final awakening and also of seeing the rebirthing of > > beings, his intention in speaking was to speak truthfully, and that the > > Buddha never spoke with the intention to "usefully deceive". So, what I > > was saying is closest to your choice (a). > > > > > Tep: > > > > Ah ! Now it is clear that you only implied that the Buddha's reviewing > > of "his past lives" and "seeing the rebirthing of beings" were truthful and > > useful. > > > > Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete > > kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the > > next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? > > -------------------------------------------- (snipped) 54398 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, When you say D.O is about origination, we agree. What is "cause and effect" but a type of origination, a type of "dependence." The origination of the "effect" is its "cause." With this in mind, we can understand the nature of the "links in a chain of Dep. Arising." And, even Arhats: have Mind/form, usually have all 6 sense gates, age, and die. There must be contact also, and if there is contact, there must be Consciousness. So based on your analysis: a) Feeling originates from 'contact' or 'phassa'.[6] Therefore Arhats have feelings too. Why 'contact'? b) Contact originates from '6-sense-base' or 'salaayatana'.[5] Why '6-sense-base'? c) Sense-base originates from 'naama-ruupa'/'mentality-materiality.[4] Why 'naama-ruupa'? d) Naama-ruupa or mentality-materiality originates from vinnaana.[3] Why 'vi~n~naa.na' or 'consciousness'? e) Consciousness originates from 'formation' or 'sa`nkhaara'.[2] Why 'formation' or 'fabrication'? f) Formation originates from 'ignorance' or 'avijjaa'.[1] Where does ignorance originate? May be we should go back to Feelings. g) Feelings give rise to ... My point is as follows. If DO is strictly the 12 links, and the 12-links are whole (complete) truth, then even Arhants having any one link would have them all. Now you also said, the cycle stops for arahats because there are no clinging and ignorance; therefore no bridges between clinging and feeling, or between ignorance and rebirth. This tells me that the 12 links are not hard-fast fixed links. This was the main point of my previous post. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 54399 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 4:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Enjoying the comments! > ===== Me too! ===== > TG: I don't know how we can read the same dictionary and see it 100% > opposite! Read the first definition (first paragraph) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary > of Paticcasamuppada --- It say exactly what I've been saying...that > "paticcasamuppada 'dependent origination' is the doctrine of the conditionality of all > physical and psychical phenomena..." Generally the first definition is > considered the leading aspect of the word being defined. > > I repeat ..." ALL PHYSICAL AND PSYCHICAL PHENOMENA" > ===== A persuasive argument, but I am still resisting :-) From previous experience, the best thing for me to do at this point is to put it "on the back burner". What I have found is that when I mull over a point in the background of my mind, conditions will arise which provide fresh insight. I may yet join you on the dark side :-) or, after reading Suttas and other texts, I may come back even more convinced than I was previously. Until we take up this topic again..... Metta, Rob M :-)