57400 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Nina (and Tep), You wrote to Tep: “anupassanaa means contemplating (with sati and paññaa) again and again, thus this is not of the level of thinking or intellectual understanding. It is with direct awareness and direct understanding.” My question is what do I have to do, to progress from the level of “thinking or intellectual understanding” to the level of “anupassanaa”? Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 31-03-2006 00:53 schreef indriyabala op > indriyabala@...: > > > > > > N: anupassanaa means contemplating (with sati and > paññaa) again and again, > thus this is not of the level of thinking or > intellectual understanding. It > is with direct awareness and direct understanding. > > > > > > Nina. > ---------- 57401 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:39am Subject: Re: Conditioned meditation christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Ken ("ken_aitch") > > In your previous post, under another subject title, > you had written: > > Han, you will find that most of my posts deal with the > difference between conditioned meditation (bhavana) as > taught by the Buddha and formal meditation > (pannatti-bhavana) as practised by many eager > devotees. Some people think I am obsessed with the > subject. I hope I will not drive you mad. :-) > > Dear Ken, you are not driving me mad. On the contrary, > you have kindled my interest. I would like to know > more about conditioned meditation. Would you be kind > enough to tell me in detail, step by step, how I will > have to practice conditioned meditation. > > Thank you very much. > With metta and deepest respect, > Han Dear Han Tun, (ken-aitch), all, Great post! :-) You made me smile ... no.. more than that, the post conditioned fits of giggles.. :-) If conditions are right, ken- aitch, and if you give really really clear instructions on what you'd like us to do (kusala only, mate), we might be conditioned to follow them regularly, then we can devote a few hours to Conditioned Meditation during the Vesak weekend at Cooran. Depending on conditions, of course, (-like how mad we are driven by you). with chuckling metta, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 57402 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guide through the Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Dear Ven Nyantusita, Thankyou for joining DSG and letting us know about the plans for this very helpful Guide. I have had a copy of it for a long time and it would be very useful to see it on-line and also re-printed. I have no doubt that many of our members here with interest in the Abhidhamma would find it helpful. I also had a short exchange last year with B.Bodhi about a couple of his important translations w/commentaries that were out of print and a few other wheels of translations too. Whilst I'm unable to assist you with this work, I greatly appreciate your efforts and hope you find others who are able to assist. Please keep us informed of your efforts. With respect, Sarah ======= --- Nyanatusita wrote: > Dear all, > > Recently I found an old file with the first 64 pages of the /Guide > through the Abhidhamma/ by Nyanatiloka in the BPS computer file backups. > > This is less than half the book, which is 172 pages. The book had been > partly typed in the mid nineties and Ven. Bh. Bodhi did some minor > editing on it. I converted it to Word Office and made a nice file of it. > Is there any Abhidhamma student who would like to help to help > completing the digital input of this important work so that the BPS > could put it on the internet and possibly reprint it? The scanning could > > be done here, but the OCR and/or the OCR spellchecker proofreading (on > Omnipage Scansoft or the like) and then the proofreading and formatting > of the Word file would need to be done elsewhere. Many BPS books are out > of print and I have no time to do this myself. 57403 From: Nyanatusita Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 0:40am Subject: Digitalising Nyanatiloka's Guide through the Abhidhamma nyanatusita Dear all, Recently I found an old file with the first 64 pages of the Guide through the Abhidhamma by Nyanatiloka in the BPS computer file backups. This is less than half the book, which is 172 pages. The book had been partly typed in the mid nineties and Bh. Bodhi did some minor editing on it. I converted it to Word Office and made a nice file of it. Is there any Abhidhamma student who would like to help to help completing the digital input of this important work so that the BPS could put it on the internet and possibly reprint it? The scanning could be done here, but the OCR and/or the OCR spellchecker proofreading (on Omnipage Scansoft or the like) and then the proofreading and formatting of the Word file would need to be done elsewhere. Many BPS books are out of print and I have no time to do this myself. With metta, Bh. Nyanatusita Editor Buddhist Publication Society Kandy Sri Lanka 57404 From: Nyanatusita Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 0:45am Subject: Dr Sunthorn Na-Rangsi's Address nyanatusita Hello, Does anybody know the address of Dr Sunthorn Na-Rangsi? He is the author of the book called Kamma and Rebirth and we need to ask him permission to reproduce a chapter of this book. He is or was connected to the Buddhist Department of the Chullalonkorn University in Bankok. Thanks. Bhikkhu Nyanatusita Editor Buddhist Publication Society Kandy 57405 From: "Htoo Naing" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Interesting. Conditioned meditation? I will be a learner in this thread. With respect, Htoo Naing >Dear Ken ("ken_aitch")In your previous post, under another subject title,you had written:Han, you will find that most of my posts deal with thedifference between conditioned meditation (bhavana) astaught by the Buddha and formal meditation(pannatti-bhavana) as practised by many eagerdevotees. Some people think I am obsessed with thesubject. I hope I will not drive you mad. :-)Dear Ken, you are not driving me mad. On the contrary,you have kindled my interest. I would like to knowmore about conditioned meditation. Would you be kindenough to tell me in detail, step by step, how I willhave to practice conditioned meditation.Thank you very much.With metta and deepest respect,Han 57406 From: "Htoo Naing" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guide through the Abhidhamma htootintnaing Dear Bhante, I wanted to. But I do not have enough time to do so. With respect, Htoo ------------- 57407 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 6:27am Subject: Re: Hello - moving to the second temple matheesha333 Hi Nina, > N: At > > this time there are only neyya puggala, those who need much > guidance and > > explanations before they can attain enlightenment, and pada parama, > those > > who understand only the theory. > > > M: Since we don't know this for sure, ... so it is important not to leave them feeling hopeless. M: Thank you for you reply. The explanation of the 4 puggalas was nice. My only issue there is that the sutta itself doesnt define those people as the Co has done. It also doesnt mention any method through samatha&vipassana -which leads me to think that their projection of what those terms are biased. The logic in the Co is meaningless when it comes to legth of the sasana. To say that in the last 1000 years there will only be sotapannas for example means that after that 1000 years those soatapannas will have to become sakadagamins, anagamins, and arahaths and they will be born in human realms as well. This is not a teaching of the Buddha because he didnt say anything of the sort, nor from a reasonably intelligent logical mind at that. Anagamins live for millions of years in suddhavasa. So to speak of a 1000 years is nothing. What it does look like is that it is a product of an overly analytical and theoretical mind which likes to classify. What the Buddha did say and guarantee was arahathood or the anagamin state in 7 years or less and that the world will not be empty of arahaths as long as the satipattaana is alive and well. If our current practice doesnt exaplain that statement lets just admit ignorance, rather than saying something which contradicts a Buddha. metta Matheesha 57408 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 6:56am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 67 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 67 Intro: The Vis. text and the Tiika elaborate on different word meanings of root-cause, hetu-paccaya. It was deemed necessary to be precise in the choice of words, and hence different possible meanings are given of hetu-paccaya in different contexts. Such passages are more meaningful to those who know Pali, and if one reads only the English translation there may be confusion. 67. (1) Herein, it is a root-cause and a condition, thus it is 'root-cause condition'. It is by its being a root-cause that it is a condition; what is meant is that it is a condition owing to its status as root-cause. The same method applies in the case of object condition and the rest. ------- N: The Tiika explains that condition, paccaya, is a general term, and in order to clarify the meaning of hetu-paccaya, the text added: ²It is by its being a root-cause that it is a condition...¹ There are several meanings of rootcause, hetu. In the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the Expositor (p. 399), these are enumerated as follows: as root as such (hetu hetu), thus, the three akusala roots or hetus and the three sobhana hetus. As paccaya-hetu, causal relation, thus in a more general sense. As ultimate root or chief condition (uttama hetu), that is, Œ a desirable object is the chief (thing) in a good result, an undesirable object in a bad result.¹ As a common condition (saadhaarana hetu), such as : ignorance is the common condition for kamma-formations. --------- Text Vis.: Herein, 'cause' (hetu) is a term for a part of a syllogism, for a reason, and for a root. For with the words 'proposition' (pa.ti~n~naa), 'cause' (hetu = middle term), etc., in the world it is a member of a syllogism that is called a cause. But in the Dispensation, in such passages as 'Those states that are produced from a cause' (Vin.i,40), it is a reason (kaara.na); and in such passages as 'Three profitable [root-]causes, three unprofitable [root-]causes' (Dhs.1053), it is a root (muula) that is called a cause. The last is intended here. ------- N: Hetu-paccaya can have a general meaning when used in conventional sense, in the world, such as cause or reason. But in the context of the twentyfour conditions it has a specific meaning. Root-condition is one of the twentyfour conditions and here it is used in the sense of muula, which also means root. There are three akusala hetus or muulas: attachment (lobha, aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). There are three beautiful roots, sobhana hetus: non-attachment (alobha), non-aversion (adosa) and understanding or wisdom (amoha). The three akusala roots are cetasikas that accompany akusala cittas and the three sobhana roots are cetasikas that accompany sobhana cittas (kusala cittas, mahaa-vipaakacittas and mahaa-kiriyacittas). They are called root, since they are the firm foundation of the citta. Just as a tree rests on its roots and receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas and sobhana cittas dependent on the presence of the roots and they cannot occur in their absence. Thus, the roots are powerful conditions for the cittas which are rooted in them. When we take the term root-condition, hetu-paccaya, the word paccaya is used in a general sense and the word hetu in a particular sense, that is: in the sense of muula, root. As such it is a supportive factor for the dhamma it conditions. It supports by its nature of being root the dhamma that it conditions. As the Vis. text states: it is a root-cause and a condition( hetu ca so paccayo caati), and here, the Tiika explains, its specific force (satti) has been taught. As we have seen (Intro to 66), there are specific forces that bring about the relations between the conditioning dhammas and the conditioned dhammas. The Tiika quotes what is stated in Vis. 68: Œwhen a dhamma is indispensable to another dhamma's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter.¹ The Tiika states that in the same way object-condition, aaramma.na-paccaya, should be understood: It is by its being an object-cause that it is a condition... ----------- Conclusion: Citta is the chief in cognizing and object and the accompanying cetasikas assist the citta while they perform their own functions. They arise together at the same physical base and fall away together. They experience the same object. The cetasikas that are roots are the firm foundation of the citta they accompany. There are different degrees of the cetasikas that are roots, they may be weak or they may be strong. As we have learnt (Vis. Ch XV, khandha of consciousness), akusala cittas and sobhana cittas can be classified by way of the roots that accompany them. Root-condition operates at each moment of the javana-cittas, arising in the sense-door processes and mind-door processes. When we are thinking at this moment, akusala hetus or sobhana hetus condition the citta they accompany by way of root condition, by being the firm foundation of the citta. We attach great importance to like and dislike of the objects we experience. When we experience an object that does not give us pleasure we want another object and that is clinging. Before we realize it akusala citta arises that is rooted in akusala hetus. Moha, ignorance, accompanies each akusala citta. The study of roots can remind us that akusala citta or kusala citta that arises at this moment is conditioned, it is conditioned by akusala or kusala that has been accumulated. Amoha or paññaa may accompany kusala citta but it can only arise when the right conditions have been fulfilled. Listening to the Dhamma and considering it condition the development of paññaa that sees realities as they are, as not belonging to a self. ***** ***** Nina. 57409 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta nilovg Dear Han (and Tep), op 03-04-2006 11:33 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > You wrote to Tep: “anupassanaa means contemplating > (with sati and paññaa) again and again, thus this is > not of the level of thinking or intellectual > understanding. It is with direct awareness and direct > understanding. > > My question is what do I have to do, to progress from > the level of “thinking or intellectual understanding > to the level of “anupassanaa" -------- N: What you are doing now, questioning. It is good that you are openminded and inquisitive, verifying for yourself what you hear, not taking anything for granted. Listening, discussing, considering are important conditions for the growth of paññaa. Drawing near, listening, weighing things up, we find this in the suttas and the Commentaries. Our aim should be having more understanding, and it is understanding itself that grows, develops. If we wish to interfere and make it grow faster it cannot grow. It ripens in its own time. Nina. 57410 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Pablo (and Mateesha) Cerini Pablo wrote: >Hi Jonotan,Matheesha and Icaro (and all) > >Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > >>J:As I have said before, where's the kusala in focussing >>on an earth kasina (or 'watching' the breath, for that matter)? >> > >At least, dosa and lobha are put away for some time. And I think >that you also create an inclination to alobha and adosa, becuase >in the first hours following the meditation, sensual impressions >keep cooler and don't cause defilements to burn as in days without >formal meditation at all. This seems my experience, at least. > I know that what you report here is your subjective experience, but I think subjective experiences need to be treated with caution ;-)). People who follow other practices (such as reciting a mantra, prayer, focussing on a candle flame, etc.) may experience the same impression of apparent calm and release from akusala. Just because we are focussing on an 'approved object', that does not make the present mindstate kusala, even if it seems that there is less akusala as a result. I'd like to suggest that unless there is clear understanding at an intellectual level of the connection between a particular object and the arising of kusala, then focussing on that object is not going to be (or to bring) kusala. As I said before, there is nothing intrinsically kusala about concentrating on a particular object. Nor does the fact that our motive is to develop samatha have any influence in determining that quality of the mental state. Which brings me back to my earlier question: Where's the kusala in focussing on an earth kasina (or 'watching' the breath, for that matter)? If kusala calm and freedom from lobha and dosa is to follow, what is the connection? It cannot 'just happen' ;-)) >>J: Samatha moments can occur in daily life, spontaneously, without any >>'input' from us, so there is no need to do anything special for them >>to arise. >> > >Maybe I'm wrong, but I won't call "samatha" those moments of >spontaneus calm in daily life. Or, at least, I won't call every one >of them "samatha" of 100% quality. I think they're just moments >of calm, without any "deeper implication". >But I understand that I can say this only for moments of calm >occurring in *my* experience. >Maybe what you experience is really samatha. >So, erase this last comment :) > > ;-)), ;-)). Actually, we may be talking about the same thing, but using different terminology. I think you are drawing a distinction here between (a) moments of (kusala) calm that occur spontaneously and (b) moments of (kusala) calm that are part of the development of samatha leading (eventually) to the attainment of jhana. I think that is a valid distinction, but the difference is not that one is samatha and the other is not; the difference is that one is samatha without panna and the other is samatha accompanied by panna of the level that knows the difference between aksuala and akusala. Only the latter can lead to the attainment of jhana. There is perhaps a tendency to associate samatha with concentration that is of or approaching the level of absorption, but this is only one particular (although important) aspect of samatha. Samatha has an ordinary, daily life (but equally important) aspect also, and we should know about this so that we can appreciate it when it occurs. In any event, the samatha that leads to jhana cannot be developed unless the more ordinary, daily life instances of samatha are known for what they are. Jon 57411 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Nina (and Tep), Thank you very much. May I request some more clarifications? -------------------- Nina: Listening, discussing, considering are important conditions for the growth of paññaa. Drawing near, listening, weighing things up, we find this in the suttas and the Commentaries. Our aim should be having more understanding, and it is understanding itself that grows, develops. If we wish to interfere and make it grow faster it cannot grow. It ripens in its own time. ------------------- Han: Could you kindly explain a little bit more on the following words: “considering” (what do I have to consider?) “drawing near” (what do you mean by drawing near?) “weighing things up” (what things do I have to weigh?) “understanding” (what do I have to understand?) If these words are in the suttas and commentaries, please give me Pali words and I will understand. I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. But what is the role of "Sammaa-vaayaama", one of the Noble Eightfold Paths? Do I not need to put in any effort? Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Tep), > N: What you are doing now, questioning. It is good > that you are openminded > and inquisitive, verifying for yourself what you > hear, not taking anything > for granted. > > Listening, discussing, considering are important > conditions for the growth > of paññaa. Drawing near, listening, weighing things > up, we find this in the > suttas and the Commentaries. > Our aim should be having more understanding, and it > is understanding itself > that grows, develops. If we wish to interfere and > make it grow faster it > cannot grow. It ripens in its own time. > > Nina. 57412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta jonoabb Hi Mateesha (and Tep) I hope you don't mind if I come in here. I like your answer to Tep. matheesha wrote: >Hi Mr.Indriyabala! > >T:> 1. The neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is neutral -- it does >not > > >>make a person joyful or sad or unhappy: it is just like nothing. >>Then why does one "seek delight" in it? I wouldn't. >> >> > >M: But you do! You have upadana towards your kandas! If some tried to >kill you, you wouldnt want to die! You would be afraid to loose >consciousness. You LOVE those neutral moments of being alive and >conscious and if you could, you would want them to continue. Bhava >thanha I think.:) > > This is right on the button, I think, and well put. The craving for becoming is extremely subtle but sooo deeply rooted. That makes it both difficult to see and difficult to uproot. (And I'm tempted to add: No wonder it takes a long time to be eradicated. But that's another issue;-)) I think we can say, by extension, that there is also the same kind of 'low grade but chronic' craving associated with the experiences through the sense doors, as it is these that signify consciousness and being alive in samsara. >>3. Please suggest how to fully understand the >>neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling "in its entirety". >> >> > >M: sati and sampajanna. bare awareness and clear comprehension, >satipattaana, vipassana, understanding the present moment, call it >what you will. It comes with a Buddha's guarantee. How much more do >you need? > > Another good answer ;-)). Whenever the question is, 'How to understand ...?', the answer is likely to be sati and panna. Jon 57413 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 8:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Eric > Thanks for this last question and the other good ones in your post. Before I reply to them, however, I'd just like to clarify something in your comments, so I can understand where you're coming from on this. > When you say above, "without the ability to enter and maintain > jhana, there is no insight", do you mean no insight, or no > enlightenment? If you mean no insight, does that mean no > satipatthana, no panna, no understanding of dhammas, no mundane path development whatsoever? According to the Upanisa without jhana there is no "Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)". So, there is no this type of insight. There may be intellectual insight and understanding but that is not what the insight above is. And if we are really honest with ourselves that is what Buddhist vipassana is. You know the map metaphor. Mundane path development would be studying the maps but you have to put your hiking boots on sooner or later and not fixate on the map. You have to try and navigate as best you can. Only then does the path and the fruits become apparent. 57414 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 9:44am Subject: Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta .. An Intelligent Robot indriyabala Dear Nina and Han - Now your discussion has turned a corner into an interesting stage of "clarification". > > Nina: it is good that you are openminded and inquisitive, verifying for yourself what you hear, not taking anything for granted. Tep : You're right. Han is an open-minded person and he has asked appropriately. I am also curious about what you meant when you wrote : "it is understanding itself that grows, develops. If we wish to interfere and make it grow faster it cannot grow. It ripens in its own time." >Han: >I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. >But what is the role of "Sammaa-vaayaama", one of >the Noble Eightfold Paths? Do I not need to put in any effort? Tep: By saying that understanding "itself" grows and develops and "ripens in its own time", Nina makes me think of an old Hollywood movie that was about an intelligent robot that could learn to adapt to changing conditions. It even learned to repair itself. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina (and Tep), > > Thank you very much. > May I request some more clarifications? > -------------------- > Nina: > Listening, discussing, considering are important > conditions for the growth of paññaa. Drawing near, > listening, weighing things up, we find this in the > suttas and the Commentaries. > Our aim should be having more understanding, and it is > understanding itself that grows, develops. If we wish > to interfere and make it grow faster it cannot grow. > It ripens in its own time. > ------------------- (snipped) 57415 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 9:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) matheesha333 Hi Jon, J: the mental factor of concentration (ekaggata), > it is not one of the sobhana cetasikas (like metta or awareness or > passaddhi (calm)); it is a 'universal' that takes its nature from the > citta it accompanies. > > If we are talking about concentration in the sense of consciousness > having the same object for a period of time, then again it will be > kusala only if the consciousness is kusala by reason of factors other > than the concentration itself. M: Yes, thanks for clearly stating that. It is possible to be concentrated on akusala as well. (Ananda saying that all objects of concentration are not approved by the Buddha). When it comes to deeper levels (pre-jhanic and jhanic if you like), lobha, dosa is suppressed (tadanga prahana) or does not arise at all. So at (especially) jhanic levels there is no issue whether they are kusala or akusala. They are kusala. J: There would haave to have been the prior > development of samatha to the (relatively high) degree such that panna > knows whether the present consciousness is kusala (or whether it is > accompanied by subtle lobha and therefore aksuala). M: You are correct. Since there is much kusala and panna to be gained it is IMO better to plunge right in with samatha practice ,without dithering on the edge and worrying about bits of akusala which one might generate. As long as we are unenlightened it is an unavoidable 'evil', whatever we do. metta Matheesha 57416 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:27am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling matheesha333 Hi Tep, old pal, T:> The cornerstone of our discussion is the 'neither-painful-nor- pleasant > feeling'. But what is it? > > You have kindly given implied definition of this term. It gives the > implication that the 'neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling' is almost > any dhamma after dukkha vedana, sukha vedana, somanassa and domanassa > are separated out from the Teachings. Is that a correct understanding? > If so, then please advise! M: Each pancaskanda which arises has a vedana component. It is one of the 3 dukka,sukha or adukkhama-sukha. Or Every nama which is experienced has one of the 3; every rupa which is experienced has on of the 3. You feel the sensation of the keyboard on one of your fingertips - it is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. You see the keyboard and,it is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. You read what I have written and have thoughts about it. They are the same. T:> Below is my explanation why your answers are not precise and have not > been very helpful. M: Oh dear! > ....................... > >Matheesha: > > "...those neutral moments of being alive and conscious" > > "..continued state of avijja" > ....................... > Tep: You seem to state that any one of the following terms (they are > synonyms) is for attaining full understanding of the > neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling in its entirety : > sati and sampajanna, bare awareness and clear comprehension, > satipattaana, vipassana, understanding the present moment. > > But isn't it true for full understanding of many other dhammas, > including the "All"? M: What ever we do in the name of vipassana we are just being mindful of different aspects of the same thing -dhammas arising and passing away moment to moment. It is the same central mechanism we are watching. Be it being mindful of vedana, arising and passing away, paccaya, whatever. Yes, you can potentially do purely vedananupassana - but that is difficult but not impossible - just to focus on the 3 types of vedana arising and passing away each moment. I have done this and rose into the first jhanas using it. It was the first time I experienced that it was possible to do vipassana and still go into jhana even though I had heard from others that it was possible. IT also fits in nicely with the sama sati, leading to samma samadhi progression in the N8FP. Doing the practice is important. I dont see how knowing in detail about each dhamma is helpful. There is an intial stage of exploration where one is amazed at what is going on and want to learn more about the bits and pieces which are arising. But then one quickly goes pass that stage of curiosisty, to beginning to see tilakkana. That is where the buddhism is. Otherwise we take the wrong path of the fork and end up collecting facts and not making any progress. metta Matheesha 57417 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:53am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta matheesha333 Hi Jon, > >>3. Please suggest how to fully understand the > >>neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling "in its entirety". > >> > >> > > > >M: sati and sampajanna. bare awareness and clear comprehension, > >satipattaana, vipassana, understanding the present moment, call it > >what you will. It comes with a Buddha's guarantee. How much more do > >you need? > > > > > >J: Another good answer ;-)). Whenever the question is, 'How to understand > ...?', the answer is likely to be sati and panna. > M: Thanks for your kind words. Might I suggest that sati conditions the arising of panna; and that the arising of panna cannot be forced. What are the implications of that? :) metta Matheesha 57418 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? indriyabala Hi, my long-lost-friend Htoo and Ken ("ken_aitch"): It is my first encounter to "conditioned meditation" too. I have a few questions to ask Ken. If you define "formal meditation" as 'pannatti-bhavana', then why is "conditioned meditation" just 'bhavana'? Is there such a meditation like 'paramattha-bhavana'? If there is such a thing like "conditioned meditation", then why is there no "unconditioned meditation" -- shold it be called 'asankhata bhavana'? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Htoo Naing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Interesting. Conditioned meditation? I will be a learner in this thread. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > (snipped) 57419 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 0:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 01-04-2006 22:14 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > > > > > Tep: Perhaps the best thing one can do "at the beginning", when his > > mindfulness is weak, is to keep on reminding himself about the danger > > of clinging through tanha and ditthi. That reminder -- a recollection > > -- is helpful for cultivating sati. > ------- > N: Perhaps we can learn little by little when there is not mindfulness but > some clinging, such as clinging to understanding, to mindfulness. James: I don't understand this point. How could there be clinging to mindfulness? I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." And in that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, but it really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. The object of the clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. But how could one cling to real mindfulness? Metta, James 57420 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > --------- > T: BTW I know very well how a dog's barking can cause dosa and lost of > > mindfulness in one who doesn't practice letting go with the bare > > attention that "it is just a sound". Last night my neighbor's dog > > barked loudly and continuously, very close to my bedroom, when I was > > trying to get some sleep. Yet, I was not disturbed and fell asleep a > > few minutes later. > > ............... > N: Very good. Lodewijk says, exemplary. I am very sensitive for neighbour's > sounds, like a washing machine at night, and I cannot help having strong > dosa. This way of reminding: it is only sound is good. It may be inappropriate to comment about this personal issue, but since you bring it up I guess I can. Nina, I am really surprised, that with all of your dhamma study and knowledge, that something as little as a neighbor's washing machine can fill your mind with strong dosa. Doesn't that bother you? I get really disgusted with myself when I let things bother me and I know that they shouldn't. I am a Highly Sensitive Person (http://www.highlysensitivepeople.com/) so many things can bother me: loud noises, crowded places, bright lights, etc. It is a very annoying trait to have. But I work hard to not let those things bother me. For example, right now it is 10:00 pm and there has been a loud banging going on in the hallway of my apartment building for at least an hour now- and it doesn't bother me. I have come to expect those kinds of things in Egypt. Nina, are you a highly sensitive person? If your neighbor's washing machine fills your mind with dosa, I really do think that meditation practice could help you- reminders that "it's only sound" is a mind game and wouldn't be very effective in the long run. Metta, James 57421 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 1:29pm Subject: Re: Three cheers for Kom!! HumanRealm is the ONLY LAUNCH PT.toNirvana. buddhatrue Ven. Dhammanando, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > > This was a quote of A.Sujin's which I heard on a tape > > yesterday and liked a lot: > > > > "Anything which we think can help moves us away from the > > reality of this moment." > > Therefore, if we think the above quote can help us, it will > move us away from the reality of this moment. > > > I think it's really worth reflecting on, > > Yes, provided we don't think this will be of any help. If we > DO think it will help then we should avoid reflecting on it > like the plague, for it will only move us away from the > reality of this moment. ;-)) > > (Sorry .... couldn't resist) > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando HAHAHAHAHA!!! Absolutely brilliant! I don't think there is a need to apologize; I am glad that someone pointed this out: the passive approach of KS is pure nonsense! It is contradictory and silly. Metta, James 57422 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 1:54pm Subject: Re: Hello - moving to the second temple buddhatrue Hi Matheesha (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > The logic in the Co is meaningless when it comes to legth of the > sasana. To say that in the last 1000 years there will only be > sotapannas for example means that after that 1000 years those > soatapannas will have to become sakadagamins, anagamins, and arahaths > and they will be born in human realms as well. This is not a teaching > of the Buddha because he didnt say anything of the sort, nor from a > reasonably intelligent logical mind at that. Anagamins live for > millions of years in suddhavasa. So to speak of a 1000 years is > nothing. What it does look like is that it is a product of an overly > analytical and theoretical mind which likes to classify. Very good point! I never did like that commentary, and it is pulled out quite often in this group because it fits quite well with the KS passive approach; but now you have pointed out something about that commentary which makes no sense. If the last 1000 years of the buddhasasana is supposed to produce only sotapannas, where the heck do those sotapannas go after that? They have seven more lifetimes at most, and they must be reborn as humans to become enlightened, so that commentary makes no sense at all!! Are sotapannas supposed to just disappear until the next Buddha arrives? Doesn't make any sense to me. And, yes, I agree with you that Nina has a greater responsibility because of those who look up to her. I tried to point that out to her recently, but she didn't take me seriously. I'm glad that someone else sees this. Metta, James 57423 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. icarofranca Hi James! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > James: I don't understand this point. How could there be clinging > to mindfulness? I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." And in > that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, but it > really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. The object of the > clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. But how could one cling > to real mindfulness? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ten thousand questions and only one answer... The real Mindfulness is reached in practising Mindfulness. You can spend a lot of time on trying many methods...or get some confidence on a Sangha friend that could explain it for you, making your clinging perfectly natural. Buddha reduced in a great measure all mindfulness practitioners´homework on left good and detailed instructions about it. Mettaya Ícaro 57424 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:11pm Subject: Re: Hello - moving to the second temple icarofranca Hi James! --------------------------------------------------------------------- If the last 1000 years of the > buddhasasana is supposed to produce only sotapannas, where the heck > do those sotapannas go after that? They have seven more lifetimes > at most, and they must be reborn as humans to become enlightened, so > that commentary makes no sense at all!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s a question about progessive education! Sotapannas, becoming calm, get a next level: Sakadagami, Anagami... Just note that all Sotapanna´s labour is reduce Anger and greedy´s grip - their role on human live is so intense that only the next Sakadagami and Anagami stagees manage to extinguish them entirely. Meanwhile the Arahant is thinking about something entirely diverse and Buddha...well, The Buddha... Mettaya Ícaro 57425 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 2:59pm Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling. indriyabala Hi, young Matheesha - The last reply gave me a bit more detail (than the previous post) about what you meant by 'neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling'. Thanks. According to my understanding (that, of course, can be wrong), the neutral feeling is different than (i.e. not the same as) perception or consciousness. That's why I don't agree with the following remarks (in the previous post): > >Matheesha: > > "...those neutral moments of being alive and conscious" > > "..continued state of avijja" > ....................... In other words, the neutral feeling is not defined by "neutral moments" of living that includes other nama such as perceptions, formations and consciousness. The second case is too broad. ......... >M: >You feel the sensation of the keyboard on one of your fingertips - it is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. You see the keyboard and, it is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. You read what I have written and have thoughts about it. They are the same. Tep: You are talking about feeling that results from contact through touching or seeing an object, or a feeling that is conditioned by mind-contact. Yes, these feelings may be neutral sometimes. ........... >M: What ever we do in the name of vipassana we are just being mindful of different aspects of the same thing -dhammas arising and passing away moment to moment. It is the same central mechanism we are watching. Be it being mindful of vedana, arising and passing away, paccaya, whatever. Tep: It sounds very theoretical, unlike the practical Matheesha I've known. How are you actually mindful of an arising, or passing-away, neutral feeling associated with the seeing of an object? It would be very helpful if you could kindly elaborate on it, based on your own experiences. You wrote : "... just to focus on the 3 types of vedana arising and passing away each moment." That's is easily said than done! Specifically, please tell me how do you do vedananupassana of a neutral feeling, according to the Satipatthana sutta. If you can then I will be very grateful, because I can't. Sincerely, Tep, your humble and not-wise 'old pal'. ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, old pal, > (snipped) > > M: What ever we do in the name of vipassana we are just being mindful of different aspects of the same thing -dhammas arising and passing away moment to moment. It is the same central mechanism we are watching. Be it being mindful of vedana, arising and passing away, paccaya, whatever. > > Yes, you can potentially do purely vedananupassana - but that is > difficult but not impossible - just to focus on the 3 types of vedana arising and passing away each moment. I have done this and rose into the first jhanas using it. It was the first time I experienced that it was possible to do vipassana and still go into jhana even though I had heard from others that it was possible. IT also fits in nicely with the sama sati, leading to samma samadhi progression in the N8FP. > (snipped) 57427 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta .. Becoming & Neutral Feeling indriyabala Hello to Matheesaha and Jon - Long time no debate. > > Matheesha: You LOVE those neutral moments of being alive and > >conscious and if you could, you would want them to continue. Bhava > >thanha I think.:) > >Jon: This is right on the button, I think, and well put. The craving for becoming is extremely subtle but sooo deeply rooted. Tep: Is 'becoming' the same as 'neutral feeling'? Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Mateesha (and Tep) > > I hope you don't mind if I come in here. I like your answer to Tep. > (snipped) > > > >M: But you do! You have upadana towards your kandas! If some tried to > >kill you, you wouldnt want to die! You would be afraid to loose > >consciousness. You LOVE those neutral moments of being alive and > >conscious and if you could, you would want them to continue. Bhava > >thanha I think.:) > > > > (snipped) 57428 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 3:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala Hi, James (and Nina) - I think I can answer your question , using my three years of experience in dhamma discussion with Nina as a guideline. >James: How could there be clinging to mindfulness? > I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." >And in that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, > but it really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. > The object of the clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. > But how could one cling to real mindfulness? > Tep: Clinging to mindfulness may result from craving (lobha) -- the favourite theme of Khun Sujin. When there is a self who wants stronger and longer mindfulness, then there is craving on the mindfulness. When there is craving, it is certain that clinging to mindfulness will be inevitable. I think the object of clinging is the perceived better-mindfulness. I'm wondering what Nina might say. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina (and Tep), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, > > op 01-04-2006 22:14 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@: > > > > > > > > Tep: Perhaps the best thing one can do "at the beginning", when > his mindfulness is weak, is to keep on reminding himself about the > danger of clinging through tanha and ditthi. That reminder -- a > recollection -- is helpful for cultivating sati. > > ------- > > N: Perhaps we can learn little by little when there is not > mindfulness but some clinging, such as clinging to understanding, to mindfulness. > > James: I don't understand this point. (snipped) > Metta, > James > 57429 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 3:42pm Subject: Re: Conditioned meditation ken_aitch Dear Han, Thank you for your question: -------- H: > I would like to know > more about conditioned meditation. Would you be kind > enough to tell me in detail, step by step, how I will > have to practice conditioned meditation. -------- I may have given the wrong impression. Conditioned meditation is another name for vipassana-bhavana (and samatha-bhavana). Therefore, there is no easy step by step guide, just the entire Tipitaka and its commentaries. :-) I included the word "conditioned" to indicate I was talking about an absolute reality taught by the Buddha. He taught only absolute realities ("I have taught you O bhikkhus, to see conditionality everywhere, in all things"*) using conventional designations, such as `man' `woman' `chariot,' merely as forms of expression. When I say meditation is a conditioned reality, I am thinking it refers to citta – either magga-citta in the case of supramundane meditation, or satipatthana-citta (is that a correct term?) in the case of mundane meditation. I suppose you could argue it refers to the co-arising path factors (which are cetasikas). As for `how to practice conditioned meditation' I really don't think that is the right question. There is always a citta that has been conditioned to arise, and if that citta is either magga-citta or satipatthana then we have the conditioned meditation taught by the Buddha. Otherwise, there is ordinary consciousness of some kind. Regardless of what kind of citta it is, it, with its cetasikas, base and object, is the entire world (loka). It can be vipaka, kiriya, wholesome, unwholesome, mundane-path or supramundane-path, it doesn't matter: the purpose of the Dhamma is that we can know the world the way it ultimately is. I had better leave my reply there before I really get started. :-) The answer to your question (which I think should have been "What are the realities that are arising now?") is found in all DSG posts, all of Nina's [and other people's] books, and, as I said, in the Tipitaka and commentaries. :-) Ken H * I have the reference for that quote on my other (temporarily out of action) computer. 57430 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditioned meditation hantun1 Dear Ken, Since you have said that “conditioned meditation is another name for vipassana-bhavana (and samatha-bhavana)”, I have no further questions. Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- ken_aitch wrote: > Dear Han, > I may have given the wrong impression. Conditioned > meditation is > another name for vipassana-bhavana (and > samatha-bhavana). 57431 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 4:40pm Subject: Re: Anattalakkhana .. vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m indriyabala Hi, Connie - I am not 'going' anywhere-- just getting stuck here in the khandhas. >Connie: > ['hadaya rupa'] arises "wherever you think" ... confined to grosser panca-vokaara planes' upadhi at bhavanga [next to the 'cut' as past kamma conditions it thru-out life when it is not the occasion for one of the five ajjhattika pasadas but the instant for that connection with mano-vinnaana and dhammarammana and would be in evidence whenever cittajarupa arise, i think]. Tep: This answer is too complicated for the slow learning non-abhidhamma guy like me. I think I know 60 - 70% of what you are getting at. ........... You say (based on Walshe, anandajoti) that all handering and fretting for the world (or avarice and sorrow) are "put away" first before practicing Satipatthana, then 'earnestly, clearly aware, mindful' (aataapii sampajaano satimaa) is to be a consequence! Since we practice satipatthana anyplace, anytime, and in any body position, it should follow that we must make sure that we are free from 'loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m' all the time during the Satipatthana practice too. In order to satisfy the above condition, does it mean that indriya-samvara sila (on top of the patimokha sila? ) is to be established first before proceeding to Satipatthana? On the other hand, I think if it were to be "the other way around", i.e. Satipatthana practice results in 'loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m', then perfect sila would not be required. Agree? The DN 18 quote you gave is interesting : "here ... becomes perfectly concentrated, perfectly clear, and, being perfectly concentrated, perfectly clear/serene, he generates knowledge and insight regarding the external bodies ... vedanaa ... citta ... dhamma ... for the attainment of that which is good". Who fits the description of "being perfectly concentrated, perfectly clear/serene"? I think "he" (or she) is at least anagami. Why? The sotaapanna and sakadaagaami do not have perfect concentration. This sutta firmly supports the importance of 'perfect concentration' (samatha/jhana) as the requisite for generating knowledge and insight. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > How's it going, Tep? > (snipped) > 2-- If we can become 'aataapii sampajjaano satimaa' most of the waking > moments, will that be sufficient to remove 'loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m'? > > --maybe the other way around? 8 loke winds stir the pond and the fire is damp? (how's that for obfuscating and reifying?) > > (the natures of) kaaye kaaya-, vedanaasu vedana-, citte citta-, dhammesu dhamma-anupassii viharati (-contemplating dwells) ... > > aataapii sampajaano satimaa, *vineyya* loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m. > ... earnestly, clearly aware, mindful and *having put away* all handering and fretting for the world. {walshe} > ... ardent, fully aware, and mindful, *after removing* avarice and sorrow regarding the world. {anandajoti} > (snipped) 57432 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 7:30pm Subject: Re: Conditioned meditation ken_aitch Hi Christine, ------------ <. . .> C: > If conditions are right, ken-aitch, and if you give really really clear instructions on what you'd like us to do (kusala only, mate), we might be conditioned to follow them regularly, then we can devote a few hours to Conditioned Meditation during the Vesak weekend at Cooran. Depending on conditions, of course, (- like how mad we are driven by you). ------------- We will never get kusala instructions on how to practise Dhamma because, according to the Dhamma, there is no "we" who can practise anything. I know you love that answer - expect more of the same at Cooran. :-) Ken H 57433 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? ken_aitch Hi Tep, ------------- <. . .> T: > It is my first encounter to "conditioned meditation" too. I have a few questions to ask Ken. -------------- I am slightly embarrassed to be caught-out introducing Abhidhamma terms of my own making. :-) But, really, this one is nothing new: here at DSG we have seen countless explanations of how satipatthana occurs by conditions, not by force of will. The term "conditioned meditation" distinguishes satipatthana from the idea of meditation-on- demand. (Another useful term!) ---------------------- T: > If you define "formal meditation" as 'pannatti-bhavana', then why is "conditioned meditation" just 'bhavana'? Is there such a meditation like 'paramattha-bhavana'? ---------------------- I am sure there is, but whether it is actually given that name is another matter. In K Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' there are the sub-headings, "Citta paramattha" and "Cetasika paramattha." I imagine those terms come from somewhere in the original texts. Perhaps "bhavana paramattha" is in there as well. ------------------------------------- T: > If there is such a thing like "conditioned meditation", then why is there no "unconditioned meditation" -- should it be called 'asankhata bhavana'? -------------------------------------- I wouldn't use the term "unconditioned meditation" (there is only one unconditioned dhamma) but "non-conditioned meditation" might be a good alternative term for "formal meditation" (pannatti-bhavana). Before you ask! :-) No, I haven't seen "pannatti-bhavana" in the texts either. But I have seen "pannatti-sila" in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary so I assume "pannatti-dana" and "pannatti-bhavana" are equally acceptable. Ken H 57434 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 9:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 416- Confidence/saddhaa (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa contd) When we realize how weak our confidence still is, we should not become discouraged. When we think of all the virtues of the ariyan, his unshakable confidence in wholesomeness, his purity of síla and his generosity, we should not forget that it all started with listening to the Dhamma, considering it and developing right understanding. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (II, no. 70, Kíìågiri sutta) that the Buddha, while he was in Kåsi, said that enlightenment could not be attained without diligence. He spoke to the monks about people with different accumulations who attained enlightenment, and then said: * "I, monks, do not say that the attainment of profound knowledge comes straightaway; nevertheless, monks, the attainment of profound knowledge comes by a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual course. And how, monks, does the attainment of profound knowledge come by means of a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual course? As to this, monks, one who has faith draws close; drawing close, he sits down near by; sitting down near by he lends ear; lending ear he hears dhamma; having heard dhamma he remembers it; he tests the meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while testing the meaning the things are approved of; there being approval of the things desire1 is born; with desire born he makes an effort; having made the effort he weighs it up; having weighed it up he strives; being selfresolute he realizes himself the highest truth itself and, penetrating it by means of wisdom, he sees…" * ***** (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 57435 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 416- Confidence/saddhaa (m) sarahprocter... oops - --- sarah abbott wrote: > desire (1) is born; with desire born he makes an effort; having made the > effort he weighs it up; having weighed it up he strives; being > selfresolute he realizes himself the highest truth itself and, > penetrating > it by means of wisdom, he sees…" > * > ***** S: I missed out a foot-note: *** 1) kusalacchanda, "wish-to-do" which is kusala *** Metta, Sarah ======== 57436 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, ...and while I'm making corrections -- --- sarah abbott wrote: > 2. There are obsessions (vipallaasa) which do not include any wrong > views > or self-views. Even the anagami still has the perversion of sukkha for > dukkha and the anagami, still the perversion of subha for asubha without > any wrong views or sakkaaya-ditthi. ..... S: This should have read: > views > or self-views. Even the anagami still has the perversion of sukkha for > dukkha and the SAKADAGAMI, still the perversion of subha for asubha without > any wrong views or sakkaaya-ditthi. ...... S: Thx for your kind comments and further helpful feedback on the main parts of the posts which I'll get back to later. Metta, Sarah ========= 57437 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's post on the long way. sarahprocter... Hi Pablo, --- Cerini Pablo wrote: > About this thread I'm ok ( also, very useful the chapter about viriya > in your Cetasikas ). I' ve something to ask about the > paramattha sacca vs. vohara sacca thing, but I need some time to > elaborate the question . .... S: In the meantime, you may also like to look at posts under the following headings in "Useful Posts" in the DSG files section" 1. Conventional Truths vs by way of Ultimate Realities 2. Paramattha Dhammas 3. Concepts & Realities ..... 4. Effort - right 5. Effort - right or wrong? 6. Viriya .... S: Looking forward to your futher reflections. If you come across anything particularly helpful or puzzling, please re-post it:) Metta, Sarah ======== 57438 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three cheers for Kom!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando (& Kom), --- dhammanando_bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Sarah & Kom, > > > Do either of you have any comment or knowledge on whether > > the ordination of Sariputta's brother, Rewatta, was included > > in one of the exceptions mentioned in the translation Ven D. > > gave? > > No, there was no need to resort to any loophole, for the parental > consent rule did not yet exist. It was laid down in the seventh year > of the Sasana, as a result of Suddhodana's grief at the going forth of > Rahula. Revata's going forth had taken place years earlier. .... S: Of course!! Thank you very much for pointing this out. I'm glad to see you are looking in here and appreciate this further assistance. Do you have anything helpful to add to these Patimokkha questions I was discussing with Kom? Also, I heard you spent your last rains retreat living in a cave. If it's not a burden, I know many members besides myself would be glad to hear how you managed in terms of requisites, Patimokkha recital and so on. Anything would be of interest. I'm thinking of the caves on Vulture's Peak where the arahants lived - very impressive. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57338 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57350 With metta, Sarah ========= 57439 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three cheers for Kom!! HumanRealm is the ONLY LAUNCH PT.toNirvana. sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando (James & all), I agree with James that your comments were very witty. Very sharp too and there was nothing to apologize for as far as I was concerned at all. Delighted to see the input:-)). And I can’t resist adding a little more..... --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: S:> > "Anything which we think can help moves us away from the > > reality of this moment." > D:> Therefore, if we think the above quote can help us, it will > move us away from the reality of this moment. .... S: Right! If we think that by reflecting on the quote that there will be more awareness, tanha and ditthi are very likely to creep in. On the other hand, if we happen to be reflecting (wisely) now, it may (or may not be) a condition for further wise reflecting and further awareness. In other words, there’s a difference between reflecting now and intending to reflect. This is good (and subtle) middle path stuff, don’t you think? .... S:> > I think it's really worth reflecting on, > D:> Yes, provided we don't think this will be of any help. If we > DO think it will help then we should avoid reflecting on it > like the plague, for it will only move us away from the > reality of this moment. ;-)) .... S: :-) I would say, as long as it’s not with expectations either way. If we DO think it will help, such thinking is conditioned anyway and can be known for what it is, i.e thinking with attachment or wrong view or wise reflection, just maybe. If there is the further idea that we should then avoid such reflecting, that idea of avoidance would be taking us away ‘from the reality of this moment’:-). [James, some time ago there was discussion (with you) about carita and ‘character’ and the references in the Satipatthana Sutta or commentary (I forget now) to the tanha carita (attachment character) and the ditthi carita (wrong view character). In the development of satipatthana, we can see that tanha and ditthi arise very easily and in India we discussed that this is why just these kinds of carita are mentioned here in this sutta commentary. When we would like to see a lot of progress in the Dhamma, tanha carita is there. When we are moved away from the reality of this moment by any practice (even an idea of another kind of reflection or study), instead of understanding and being aware of the present reality, ditthi carita is there.] D:> (Sorry .... couldn't resist) .... S: No, again, I think they were good comments and this discussion is an indication of just how subtle wrong view can be. It's very helpful. There’s a fine line between wise reflection and any idea that there should be some reflecting now for sati to arise. Only awareness and understanding can know the truth. We can’t know for others at this time :-). Even now, there can be reflecting and discussing with attachment or detachment, with wise or unwise attention. Do we know which? In India, we also discussed the Pali term ‘adhipatteya’. Do you have any information or reference on this? The discussion was about how there could be studying a) for oneself, for just accumulating knowledge, ‘atta adhipatteya’, b) just for the world, ‘loka adhipatteya’ or c) just for the sake of understanding, for the sake of dhamma itself, ‘dhamma adhipatteya’. The purpose of the teachings is for ‘dhamma adhipatteya’, not for other things. Otherwise it’s useless and we just carry on in the same way with more and more attachment from life to life. K.Sujin used an expression in this regard about how we ‘cook rice for cooked rice, not for other things!’. For example, when discussing the paramis, she stressed that it must be with understanding in order to develop detachment. She was saying that a person would like to become good for the sake of ‘I’, but that is with attachment and can never lead to the development of the paramis. I’d be glad to hear any further feedback from you on this or any of the other points. (apologies for the Pali typos). other comments from anyone most welcome too. With respect, Sarah --- buddhatrue wrote: > HAHAHAHAHA!!! Absolutely brilliant! I don't think there is a need > to apologize; I am glad that someone pointed this out: the passive > approach of KS is pure nonsense! It is contradictory and silly. .... S: :-) ======= 57440 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - at the first temple sarahprocter... Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > I personally wouldn't discount any confidence developed in anyway. > Didn't the Buddha teach that we shouldn't look down on even the > slightest kusala? For the slightest kusala, when maintained and > developed bit by bit, will eventually fill its container, just like > drops of > water will eventually fill its. .... S: I agree with your good comments. Any kusala of any kind is precious and it accumulates, it's never lost. My point was, I think, that this is so for anyone, non-Buddhists too. How will the clear knowledge and development of kusala take place, however, if it's not with a keen understanding and detachment from whatever states are arising? How can there be a development of saddha in the teachings without the development of satipatthana? What really distinguishes the Buddha's teachings from other teachings is the truth about dhammas as anatta. Without the development of an understanding of namas and rupas as anatta, there's likely to be more and more clinging to being a good person and having more kusala rather than a development of detachment from whatever is conditioned now, don't you think? You mentioned Tiisa Samanera, the 7 yr old arahat and how you tell the tale with joy. Please tell us as I don't recall it! Metta, Sarah ========= 57441 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple sarahprocter... Dear Kom, Thank you very much for your long and detailed post to me on the ‘different schools’, Vism and other points. As there was so much ‘meat’ in it and as it’s already long, I’ll just make some general comments in point form, if that’s OK. I appreciate all the time and trouble you've clearly taken. ...... 1. I agree that we can’t say what it’s possible or impossible for wisdom to know. Actually, I don’t think anyone is saying it’s impossible to know any realities – whether they be phassa or the components of rupas. But we can test out for ourselves whether they appear now. What can be known now? When we talk about the components of eye, isn’t it just the thinking which can be known? 2. When we read the texts, such as the Vism, we are reading about the Buddha’s knowledge. Who are we and who was the Buddha? I think these texts can just remind us of his great knowledge. If there is any attempt to be aware of all the details he taught, we go wrong – grasping after having such an understanding. Accepting what is beyond our understanding is a kind of wise reflection in itself, I think. 3. Impermanence and khandhas – just as now, the khandhas have fallen away as soon as they have arisen, not carried over from moment to moment, so it was in the past life. Everything that happened then is now forgotten and in the same way, the khandhas we find so important now, arise and fall away and are completely gone and forgotten. But each arising dhamma conditions other dhammas. Nothing is lost in this sense. 4. You mentioned that the other school of thought suggests you study whatever you can to get rid of doubts and ignorance about namas and rupas. With respect, I think it’s only the development of satipatthana now as we speak, being aware and knowing what is conditioned to appear now, that can lead to the fading away of doubt and ignorance. Book study on its own is quite useless. There are many scholars and translators who have no idea or interest in namas and rupas. Again, isn’t it an idea of ‘doing something’ rather than just understanding now? 5. There will always be texts that seem confusing or which we don’t understand. Should we follow blindly? For example, if we read that we should ‘just try to “cognize the characteristic” of past kammas’ or ‘to connect the past kammas to the present ones’, does it make any sense? How can past kammas be known now? They’ve gone already. Trying to connect in the way you put it is just a kind of thinking, not any understanding at all of the present dhammas now, such as seeing or thinking. On the contrary, by understanding more and more precisely the characteristic of seeing now when it appears, its conditioned nature becomes more and more apparent. [btw, you’re welcome to give me the Vism refs you have in mind to look at. I’d be curious, though can’t promise to be able to clarify further!!] 6. You mention the ‘decomposing’ into elements ‘regardless if those elements really appear to the person.’ As you say, KS would call this thinking:). Kom, what is the purpose of such study or decomposing? How is it different from a scientist’s decomposing into atoms and so on? For me, all such kind of study again moves me away from directly knowing and being aware of what appears right now. For example, as I write, there are moments of seeing, hearing and so on. Visible object is very real and it appears. At such moments awareness can be aware naturally and effortlessly. But if I say, the ‘eyes can be decomposed into 54 rupa elements’ etc, it may be of some interest which is fine, but I don’t think it helps the development of awareness at all. A moment of awareness of thinking as thinking at such a time is more precious than all the analysis, don’t you think? 7. As you say, in order to have some general, theoretical understanding of kamma, an awareness of namas and rupas is not necessary. However, this is not a direct or firm understanding of kamma. It can be shaken anytime or in any life. The direct understanding of kamma and conditions can only develop after the precise understanding of namas and rupas is established. 8. Again you emphasise the importance of ‘remembering the teachings’ in order for doubts to subside. Again, I don’t think a conventional ‘remembering’ has much bearing at all. We can see on DSG how some friends have a detailed knowledge of suttas and others don’t remember them at all. I don’t think it’s indicative at all of the development of panna. This remembering is quite different from (kusala) sanna which marks objects rightly when accompanying sati and panna and is a condition for wisdom in this way. 9. You mention how you ‘struggle with how this model and the texts can be exactly one and the same’. Again, with respect, I would suggest that any struggle or conflict like this arises because of a lack of satipatthana, not because we haven’t read or memorized enough:). If satipatthana develops more and more, it’s more and more apparent that what we read (however abtuse it may appear) has to be in conformity with the path, with the truths about conditioned dhammas and so on. We can just leave anything aside if it’s beyond us or raise it with good friends for discussion. 10. You mention that you don’t feel fully confident about satipatthana and that you have an impressive study list of good texts which you think will help. These are all good texts which people have interest in here – so please quote any short passages for discussion. At the same time, KS would stress that the study and teachings are ‘not in the book’. In other words, even whilst studying, develop awareness. Even whilst NOT studying, develop awareness too:). 11. You didn’t agree with my ‘recipe’ or ‘lack of recipe’ comments and gave an example of repeating the 32 body parts by rote, focusing on them in a particular way and so on. You suggest a similar process for other items based on accumulations. Kom, I have to say that this part of your post concerns me rather. I don’t see anything kusala at all in such study, focusing and determination to bring peace of mind. I see it as more likely to bring more attachment and with it, more agitation instead. We can discuss this somewhat sensitive area further, but just if you wish. I think it might be useful to consider more on asubha and such details. 12. You mention ‘memorization is a recipe to the ancient learning...’ and go on to ask if I think ‘wisdom happens more often than sanna’ or if ‘we can have wisdom all the time?’ I’m not very clear on your point because it seems to me that you’re talking about conventional memorization, good memory and (kusala)sanna as if they are the same. As I tried to show with various text examples, I don’t see this as being true at all. There is sanna arising at every moment, as you know – kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya sanna. I just don’t see the correlation between memorization or recital ablility, Pali expertise and present sati of namas and rupas. Most the people I’ve known over the years to have a keen interest and understanding of the teachings have very ordinary memory of texts and no special attachment to developing this ability either:). 13. And again on the question of Culapantaka, the patisambhidas and so on, you make reference to being ‘master of all 3 tipitakas in previous lives’ etc. Like the quote I gave on mastery before, I think that it may refer to a degree of understanding rather than a memorization ability. Also on the patisambhidas, you refer to ‘expertise in causes and effects, languages...’ etc. Again, we have to consider what is meant by expertise in languages and so on. It has to refer to the deep, deep understanding of the meaning – not to being a language scholar or expert as we know it. 14. Finally, you refer to how ‘memory is a foundation of learning, and wisdom relies on those memory....’ Wisdom does rely on sanna marking and remembering its object. But, Kom, do you really think this is the kind of memorization or remembering of texts or details about the 32 parts of the eye you refer to? 15. I do, however, agree with your final words that ‘we remember things for a purpose, that is the understanding..’ Is there anything wrong with memorization? It depends whether it is done with right or wrong view, surely? At moments of satipatthana, there is clear understanding of the purpose and what is suitable already. No need to think of doing anything else. Thanks again for your very comprehensive response. I’ll be glad to see you (or anyone else) respond further on this or other topics. Metta, Sarah ======= --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Here's a brief description about a different school of thought that > takes > Vissudhimagga more literally than what A. Sujin is teaching (I am not > vouching for one or another --- I am just saying that they are > different. > I think it will take me a few more years to resolve these issues). If > you > grab Visuddhimagga, and read about how the venerable suggested the > practice to induce one toward the third level of vipassana nana, you > might be as perplexed as I am about how those suggestions have > anything to do with "knowing the characteristics of the nama and rupa > now". For example, to increase the understanding of impermanence, > the venerable suggests that you ponder the facts that the khandhas that > existed in the previous life never got carried over to this life. > Taking this backward to the first two levels of vipassana nanas, this > school of thought argues that you do whatever studies you can to > 1) To get over doubts/ignorance that there are only nama and rupa > 2) To get over doubts/ignorance about the conditionalities of all things > > (including how past kammas influence the current phenomena --- just > try to "cognize the characteristic" of past kammas!, or to connect the > past kammas to the present ones, which Vissuddhimagga appears to > suggest that you do). I think the two above objectives are explicitly > mentioned in Visuddhimagga. <....> 57442 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 0:16am Subject: lotus and lily leoaive Hi I found on Ebay and actually purchased lotus seeds. I have seen some Thai lotus and lily seeds too, that can be shipped. I do not know much about it. What should I look for when I consider purchasing lotus? Is there some lotus good and some not? Leo 57443 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Interesting. Conditioned meditation? I will be a learner in this thread. > .... S: I'm very happy to see you've found a way to view the messages and post (briefly_. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I hope you're well-settled now and adjusted to some of these changes in samsara:). Han mentioned he'd finished posting the DTs you'd left with him. Thinking of you and wishing you well, Metta, Sarah =========== 57444 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? indriyabala Hi Ken_aitch - Thank you very much for the discussion on terminologies -- it is useful to do that once in a while. >Ken: > > > I wouldn't use the term "unconditioned meditation" (there is only one unconditioned dhamma) but "non-conditioned meditation" might be a > good alternative term for "formal meditation" (pannatti-bhavana). Tep: I think the meditation on Nibbana is called 'viraga-sanna'. 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of dispassion. [AN X.60] >Ken: >But I have seen "pannatti-sila" in > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary so I assume "pannatti-dana" > and "pannatti-bhavana" are equally acceptable. Interesting observation! Best wishes, Tep ========= > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > ------------- > <. . .> > T: > It is my first encounter to "conditioned meditation" too. > I have a few questions to ask Ken. > -------------- > (snipped) > > Before you ask! :-) No, I haven't seen "pannatti-bhavana" in > the texts either. But I have seen "pannatti-sila" in > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary so I assume "pannatti-dana" > and "pannatti-bhavana" are equally acceptable. > > Ken H > 57445 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 2:18am Subject: What is Contact ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Contact (Phassa) is the Meeting of three Phenomena! In dependence the eye and forms, visual consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... In dependence the ear and sounds, auditory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... In dependence the nose and odours, olfactory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... In dependence the tongue and flavours, gustatory consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... In dependence the body and touches, tactile consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... In dependence the mind and thoughts, mental consciousness arises... The meeting of these three phenomena, is Contact (phassa)... Conditioned by Contact, feeling comes to be. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. Conditioned by craving, clinging emerges. Conditioned by clinging, becoming appears. Conditioned by becoming, rebirth happens. Conditioned by birth, ageing & death arrive! Such is the cause of this conditioned origin of that whole accumulation of suffering...!!! Conditioned by Contact, feeling arises. But by the complete stilling, fading all away and ceasing of that very same craving, comes the instantaneous cessation of clinging! The ending of clinging ceases becoming. The ending of becoming ceases any rebirth. The ending of birth ceases ageing, decay, sickness, death, sorrow, pain & much panic! That is the cause of the conditioned ceasing of this entire massive bulk of suffering...!!! Comments: PS: Please not that there is no 'person', 'subject' or 'being' involved in any contact here! It is simply a simultaneous coincidence of three impersonal phenomena created by the right conditions being present at the same place at the same time then: Contact appears! The result of that contact is Feeling ... and - if unaware and untrained: Craving ... Craving is the cause of Suffering ... (2nd Noble Truth!!!) See also: Diversity of Contacts http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Diversity_of_Contacts.htm Source (edited excerpt): The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book II 74-5 The section on Causation 12. Thread on Natika: 45. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57446 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:was: moving to the second temple, four persons. nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 03-04-2006 15:27 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: The explanation of the 4 puggalas was nice. > My only issue there is that the sutta itself doesnt define those people > as the Co has done. ------ N: Puggala paññatti is Abhidhamma, it is not Co. It is also explained in the co. --------- > > The logic in the Co is meaningless when it comes to legth of the > sasana. To say that in the last 1000 years there will only be > sotapannas for example means that after that 1000 years those > soatapannas will have to become sakadagamins, anagamins, and arahaths > and they will be born in human realms as well. ------ N: The passage about no more arahats now means: in the human plane. There is rebirth in higher planes as well. At this moment there are arahats, but in higher planes. ------- M:This is not a teaching > of the Buddha because he didnt say anything of the sort, ------ N:see also: Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long). We should also remember the Peg sutta. There is sure to be decline. -------- > M: What the Buddha did say and guarantee was arahathood or the anagamin > state in 7 years or less and that the world will not be empty of > arahaths as long as the satipattaana is alive and well. If our current > practice doesnt exaplain that statement lets just admit ignorance, > rather than saying something which contradicts a Buddha. ----- N: The Commentaries never contradict the Tipitaka, they give additional details and explanations. Please, read and study the Commentaries so that you can judge for yourself whether they are in comformity with the Tipitaka or not. Nina. 57447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta nilovg Dear Han (and Tep), op 03-04-2006 16:40 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > -------------------- > Nina: > Listening, discussing, considering are important > conditions for the growth of paññaa. Drawing near, > listening, weighing things up, we find this in the > suttas and the Commentaries. > Our aim should be having more understanding, and it is > understanding itself that grows, develops. If we wish > to interfere and make it grow faster it cannot grow. > It ripens in its own time. > ------------------- > Han: > Could you kindly explain a little bit more on the > following words: > > “considering (what do I have to consider?) > “drawing near (what do you mean by drawing near?) > “weighing things up (what things do I have to weigh?) > “understanding (what do I have to understand?) ------- Majjhima Nikaya (II, 70, Kiitagirisutta). This is from Mettanet, transl by Sister Upalavanna (on Rob K's web, Vipassana). I used the Pali text society transl. and also looked at Ven. Bodhi's transl. But what is the role of "Sammaa-vaayaama", one of the > Noble Eightfold Paths? > Do I not need to put in any effort? ------- N: Yes. So long as we remember that it is not my effort. Effort arises with almost every citta, not with the sense-cognitions, the pañcaviññaa.na. Thus it can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Before I realize it, effort is with lobha, trying to know with lobha. Right effort arises with right understanding of the eightfold Path, it is kusala. It is with detachment, alobha. The Path cannot be developed with attachment, but from the beginning with detachment. I do not think of detachment of a high degree at the end (nibbidaa), I only speak about the beginning. Nina. 57448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: was: Three cheers for Kom!! misled by noble things. nilovg Hi Sarah, I ma delighted to hear about subtle points. We can mislead ourselves in many ways, even by taking to things which are very noble in itself. Perhaps that is the most tricky thing. I am glad that Ven. Dhammanando made that remark and that you answered. Nina. op 04-04-2006 08:56 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: No, again, I think they were good comments and this discussion is an > indication of just how subtle wrong view can be. It's very helpful. > There’s a fine line between wise reflection and any idea that there should > be some reflecting now for sati to arise. Only awareness and understanding > can know the truth. We can’t know for others at this time :-). Even now, > there can be reflecting and discussing with attachment or detachment, with > wise or unwise attention. Do we know which? 57449 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 4:42am Subject: [dsg] Re:was: moving to the second temple, four persons. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > .... > N: The Commentaries never contradict the Tipitaka, they give additional > details and explanations. Please, read and study the Commentaries so that > you can judge for yourself whether they are in comformity with the Tipitaka > or not. > Nina. > Hallo Nina How can you make such a statement, without any proof? This is a very clear example of orthodoxy! Here in DSG we have discussed examples where commentaries changed the Tipitakas. Metta Joop 57450 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:what is sati. .. Mental Noting nilovg Hi Tep, op 02-04-2006 18:45 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > BTW It might be a discouragement to new beginners in Buddhism (both > pariyatti & patipatti) that even the exeptional Buddhist and > Abhidhamma scholar, Nina Van Gorkom, does not yet have mindfulness in > every moment ! ------- N: Student, not a scholar, I beg your pardon. Now, who has sati at every moment? Not even the arahat, he sees, hears, thinks. He has many ahetuka cittas, cittas without sobhana roots. He also has mahaakiriyacittas without paññaa. As you know, there are eight types, four mahaa-kiriyacittas with and four without paññaa. The Abhidhamma is needed so that we do not have misunderstandings. ------- ---------- > Tep: Now, how about realizing a danger without > making any attempt to reason or say 'Oh, I must remind myself of the > danger'? For example, seeing a hot plate we immediately realize the > danger of getting burnt. Immediately, mindfulness arises to be careful > not to touch it with a bare hand. ------- N: This is not mindfulness, it is saññaa that remembers. When we are careful it is not necessarily kusala citta that remembers. -------- Analogous to the "hot plate" is a > "sensual pleasure" <'Since he does not seek delight in sensual > pleasure, the latent tendency to lust for pleasant feeling does not > grow deeper. He understands as it really is, the cause, fading away, > satisfaction, *danger*, and the escape in the case of feelings.' from > Bhikkhu Samahita's Message #57325> > ...................... N: This is not intellectual understanding, it is direct understanding, sati sampajañña. Insight is developed by direct understanding not by reasoning about the danger, and this leads to detachment from sense pleasures, nothing else. ------- >> N: >> If there is only sati but understanding is not being developed it is > not very meaningful. Noting (here we have one of Han's points!) and > bare attention may be thinking, it depends what someone means by these > expressions. > >> Han (message #57371): >> I have been taught to "note" everything that arises: to take note of > the in-breath and out-breath, or to take note of the wandering mind > with the noting mind etc.... --------- N: Taking note of the wandering mind, thus the citta that is distracted: it has a characteristic, it is different from the citta with right awareness. Whatever arises has conditions and gradually nama and rupa can be understood as they are. I quote Jon: dhammas unless panna has been developed. I believe this means that what > we take to be the noticing of dhammas is really only a form of focussing > attention on what we think (from having read or heard about them) > dhammas to be.> ------- > Tep: After having been a member of DSG for over three years now, I > know well the great advantage of understanding that sati can also > accompany akusala-citta. ------ N: Sati can accompany only sobhana citta. But after akusala citta has fallen away, there can be mindfulness of akusala citta or cetasikas. That is the meaning of the application of mindfulness of citta. The first citta mentioned is citta with lobha. (I am following this now on MP3 in Thai, and when suitable I can quote now and then.) -------- T: Yes, noting in some uninstructed persons may > be just "thinking" without a clear understanding (no paññaa). But, > the kind of noting that Han has kindly advised is indeed very > meaningul and useful. > .............. N: It is the word noting I have doubts about. ------- >> N: >> Khun Sujin would say: is our aim to have less dosa or to have > understanding? > > Tep: Khun Sujin is a wise person. The moment we realize that citta is > associated with dosa -- that is a "noting" to me. But the reminder > that "our aim is to have understanding" is a thinking, I guess. > ............. N: We have listened and that has to sink in. We have heard: the aim is understanding and then we do not have to remind ourselves: 'the aim is understanding'. It is just known what is essential, known and remembered. ------- >> N: >> If we learn: it is only sound, a conditioned dhamma, by attending to > its characteristic without naming it sound, this helps understanding. > And also dosa: it is only a conditioned dhamma, it has been accumulated. > > Tep: I agree that "attending to" the characteristics of a phenomenon > helps understanding -- that attention clearly indicates unshakable > mindfulness. We should discuss "accumulation" in depth later. > ........... N: Not yet. It can still be 'thinking in the present moment' as Rob K says. Sati is only unshakable later on, when insight has been further developed. Then it can be aware at any time, any place. >> N: >> I can notice or note that I have dosa, but then it is still my dosa > as Kh. Sujin would say. It is not mindfulness of its characteristic. > > Tep: True. That's a great point, Nina. However, a correct noting of > dosa when it arises and when it fades away depends a great deal on > mindfulness. It is noting with discernment, which is the same as what > the Buddha taught on contemplating citta with/without dosa in DN 22. > <'When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. > When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is > without aversion.'> > ............ N: We read: he discerns that (or we can use any term for pajanati), but it really means: realizes its nature, without thinking, as a conditioned dhamma. That makes all the difference. That is sati sampajañña. Not knowing the names, not remembering, not noticing. Yes, in the beginning we do, we think about dhammas. But paññaa can grow so that it will be direct understanding. I know, the transition from pariyatti to pa.ti patti is not easy, it will not happen fast. --------- >> N: >> I think that we should not withdraw from any object that impinges on > the six doors. These are to be understood as rupa or nama. > It is a different matter in samatha. Here one concentrates with paññaa > on a meditation subject in order to subdue the himdrances. > > Tep: You mean one at a time (since each impingement does not last long > enough)? Now, about concentration "with paññaa on a meditation > subject" -- can you give a sutta reference on this important point for > me, please? We should continue to discuss this point. > .......... N: All suttas on jhaana. There must be paññaa in samatha, and this is paññaa which knows when the citta is kusala, when it is akusala, how to become calm with the meditation subject. The object of paññaa in samatha is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma as it appears now one at a time through the six doors. (I know you heard this before!) I mean one at a time in vipassana because that is how it happens. Visible object appears, just for a moment and then there can be mindfulness and understanding, but only for a moment. How could mindfulness and understanding last? Mindfulness is not concentration, as I said before. We cannot concentrate on the arising and fading away of dosa. If we think it fades, it is thinking. Why? Because first the difference between nama and rupa is to be realized by insight. Nina. P.S. I have some old posts unanswered, our list is so active that it is hard to keep up. I have to go slowly. > > 57451 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:24am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling. matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> According to my understanding (that, of course, can be wrong), the > neutral feeling is different than (i.e. not the same as) perception or > consciousness. That's why I don't agree with the following remarks (in > the previous post): > > > >Matheesha: > > > "...those neutral moments of being alive and conscious" > > > "..continued state of avijja" > > ....................... > > In other words, the neutral feeling is not defined by "neutral > moments" of living that includes other nama such as perceptions, > formations and consciousness. The second case is too broad. > ......... M: When you are not feeling neither pleasure nor pain, when it is neither unpleasant nor pleasant - then in those moments the vedana is adukkhamasuka. > ........... > > >M: What ever we do in the name of vipassana we are just being mindful > of different aspects of the same thing -dhammas arising and passing > away moment to moment. It is the same central mechanism we are > watching. Be it being mindful of vedana, arising and passing away, > paccaya, whatever. > > Tep: It sounds very theoretical, unlike the practical Matheesha I've > known. How are you actually mindful of an arising, or passing-away, > neutral feeling associated with the seeing of an object? It would be > very helpful if you could kindly elaborate on it, based on your own > experiences.> > You wrote : "... just to focus on the 3 types of vedana arising and > passing away each moment." That's is easily said than done! > Specifically, please tell me how do you do vedananupassana of a > neutral feeling, according to the Satipatthana sutta. If you can then > I will be very grateful, because I can't. M: OK, Lets start. What are you experiencing this current moment? ..You have to focus now.. hearing a sound, feeling a sensation? - - - - - - focus and experience each one, one after the next. Let the your awareness jump from one thing to the next as it naturally does, without any control from your part -except for focusing on what it come into contact with and experiencing it clearly (and not diffusely as we do in unconcentrated normal life). - - - - - - now,start seeing whether you find what it encounters to be pleasant, unpleasant or neither (neutral) each moment, when it comes into contact with them, one after the other. Just focus on seeing this aspect alone -dont bother about identifying what you are experiencing (-focus on vedana and not sanna) - - - - - - - You will start seeing that there are oceans of neutral vedana moments followed by very few pleasant or unpleasant vedana moments. Neutral vedana moments seem to be 98% of what our lives are made of. I hope that is practical enough! But you must do it otherwise im wasting all this time :) Find a time when your mind is quiet and devoid of papanca - that is, when vipassana bears fruit, otherwise you will be lost in thought. Even better- make it quiet with a little anapanasathi- the antidote for the distracted mind as mentioned in the suttas and experienced to be true as well. with metta Matheesha 57452 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? matheesha333 Hi Tep, Ken, others K:> > I wouldn't use the term "unconditioned meditation" (there is only > one unconditioned dhamma) but "non-conditioned meditation" might be a > > good alternative term for "formal meditation" (pannatti-bhavana). M: All meditation is conditioned -whether intentional or unintentional. regards Matheesha 57453 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:27am Subject: A paradox of desire in buddhism ? jwromeijn Hallo all, Perhaps the discussion in DSG between those who state that the buddhistic Path had to be understood active (things to do) and those who state that for example 'formal meditation' as such is already craving and clinging ('passive' in the perception of the 'activists') can be brought to a higher level. In the journal 'Philosophy East and West' there has been a discussion in 1978-1980 about the question if THERE IS OR THERE IS NOT A PARADOX OF DESIRE IN BUDDHISM ? The (possible) paradox is the existence of the DESIRE TO GIVE UP DESIRES. Both positions are possible; everybody had to chose for himself/herself what fits best: some can live very well with paradoxes and some got mad of it. For me the existence of the desire id all right, and I think it does not work simply wait till 'conditions' make me without desires. The reason for me is that not only the root 'desire' had to decrease but also 'hatred' and 'delusion' and both imply to me: doing sonmething not or doing something. Perhaps that's even possible without desire: living without illusions. Sources: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew26810.htm http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/013-desire.htm http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/john2.htm http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/herman2.htm http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/010-desire.htm Metta Joop 57454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:what is sati. nilovg Hi James, good point. Any dhamma can be object of clinging, except nibbaana and the supramundane cittas that realize nibbaana. Clinging to mindfulness: wanting to have it. Nina. P.S. I go slowly with your other post, good point also. op 03-04-2006 21:44 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > N: Perhaps we can learn little by little when there is not > mindfulness but >> some clinging, such as clinging to understanding, to mindfulness. > > James: I don't understand this point. How could there be clinging > to mindfulness? I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." And in > that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, but it > really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. The object of the > clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. But how could one cling > to real mindfulness? 57455 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four lbidd2 Ken H: "It is not difficult to contemplate "Citta is not self; cetasika is not self; rupa is not self," and so I assumed your contemplations must have been of a different nature. For various reasons,* I suspected you had been contemplating conventional realities (for example, the sound of a dog barking, the image of a vase on your table, the sensation of your feet touching the floor – that kind of thing). When we contemplate conventional realities with the idea of seeing them as anicca, dukkha and anatta, silly contradictions are bound to arise. Taking some extreme examples, we both agreed that attachment would not be overcome by contemplating, "This is not my wallet" if, in fact, it *was* our wallet. And conceit would not be overcome by contemplating, "I am not the person who is entitled to be served next by the shop assistant" if, in fact, it was our turn. And lastly, wrong view would not be not overcome by pointing to oneself and saying, "This is not my self!" Those would not be not wise contemplations: they would be silly contradictions. When the Buddha employed conventional designations (person, chariot, walking etc.) he was actually referring to their underlying realities –conditioned namas and rupas. We can't catch a nama or a rupa, hold it still, and contemplate, "This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my self." However, we can hear and study the Buddha's teaching and understand how it applies to the present moment. And it is only in that way (not by being mindful of a dog's bark, a vase, or pressure on the feet etc.) that those three contemplations are gradually developed." Hi Ken, I disagree with this: "attachment would not be overcome by contemplating, "This is not my wallet" if, in fact, it *was* our wallet. And conceit would not be overcome by contemplating, "I am not the person who is entitled to be served next by the shop assistant" if, in fact, it was our turn. And lastly, wrong view would not be not overcome by pointing to oneself and saying, "This is not my self!" L: This is the most profound and penetrating kind of contemplation because this is what we really think is me and mine. All these "facts" are erroneous. On the level of self view, self is whatever we claim as self, our possessions and attributes. The bare "I" is just pride, conceit. To see these as ultimately basic realities is how we know they are not me and mine. To see ultimate reality in conventional reality is how insight works. We need both. This wallet really is not mine. Larry 57456 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Your explanation has been very thorough, relevant and comprehensive. All my questions have been ably answered. I have noted all your points with saddhaa. -------------------- Please let me study a few points together with you. ----------------------------- Han: “considering (what do I have to consider?) Nina: Any reality appearing now, be is seeing, visible object, feeling, citta with attachment, thinking. These have characteristics, different characteristics, I do not speak now about the three general characteristics. I speak about the visesa lakkhana, the specific characteristics. These can be directly experienced with sati sampajañña when they appear one at a time. We should not think of their names, that is thinking. Also, it is not a matter of concentration, it is understanding that is important. I say all this, but I find it a difficult subject myself. Han: To directly “experience” visesa lakkhana (the specific characteristics) with sati sampajañña when they appear one at a time, do I not have to “note” the visesa lakkhana with sati sampajañña? I am trying to put in the role of “noting”. If not noting, may I say watching or observing or some other suitable ‘verb’? I have to do something before I can experience something, isn’t it? Or, is it that I can experience directly without any other intervention, except the arising of sati sampajañña? ---------------------------- Han: I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. But what is the role of "Sammaa-vaayaama", one of the Noble Eightfold Paths? Do I not need to put in any effort? Nina: Yes. So long as we remember that it is not my effort. Right effort arises with right understanding of the eightfold Path, it is kusala. It is with detachment, alobha. The Path cannot be developed with attachment Han: So I understand that right effort is indeed necessary (with the conditions as mentioned above: not my effort; right understanding; without attachment, etc.) The role of effort is also highlighted in MN 70 Kiitaagirisutta. In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation: “… having scrutinized, he strives (ussahati); resolutely striving (padahati), he realizes with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.” Even in the gradual training prescribed in MN 70, the effort is repeated twice with (ussahati) and (padahati). So, what I am saying is right effort is necessary even in gradual training, and even if I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. It is not doing nothing and not just waiting for the conditions to arise. Please let me know if my above understanding is not correct. Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Tep), > op 03-04-2006 16:40 schreef han tun op > hantun1@...: > > > -------------------- > > Nina: > > Listening, discussing, considering are important > > conditions for the growth of paññaa. Drawing near, > > listening, weighing things up, we find this in the > > suttas and the Commentaries. 57457 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 7:48am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Tep, Thanks for your response. It's nice to know that you follow so closely my posts. You are indeed a true dhamma friend. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > Hi, James (and Nina) - > > I think I can answer your question to mindfulness?> , using my three years of experience in dhamma > discussion with Nina as a guideline. James: Wow! I didn't know that you have been discussing this with Nina for three years! Gosh, now don't I feel stupid! ;-)) I didn't know that this has been a subject of conversation because you and Nina both know Pali really well. When there is a lot of Pali in a post, I don't usually understand a thing and just skip the post. So, unfortunately, I miss out of a lot of good discussion. (But, I am just a simple teacher living in Egypt trying to make a living; what use do I have with learning Pali??? I think it would very pretentious of me to learn Pali and start using Pali like some sort of monk. Therefore, I don't make the effort to learn Pali. But I am happy for those who know it. They can understand the Buddha's teachings a bit better, perhaps.) > >James: How could there be clinging to mindfulness? > > I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." > >And in that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, > > but it really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. > > The object of the clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. > > But how could one cling to real mindfulness? > > > > Tep: Clinging to mindfulness may result from craving (lobha) -- the > favourite theme of Khun Sujin. When there is a self who wants stronger > and longer mindfulness, then there is craving on the mindfulness. When > there is craving, it is certain that clinging to mindfulness will be > inevitable. I think the object of clinging is the perceived > better-mindfulness. James: This is an interesting idea which I haven't encountered before. (Of course I am aware of the meditation controversy in DSG, but I didn't know that it extended to mindfulness also.) Hmmmm...what to say?? Well, you know what, I think Kom would be the best person to address this issue! As a monk, he was supposed to spend the majority of his day dedicated to mindfulness- did he find that he started to cling to mindfulness??? Please Kom, if you are reading, could you address this issue? As for myself, I hardly spend a moment of my day dedicated to true mindfulness, so I don't think I have much to say. Although, I guess according to Nina, I am very safe that way! ;-)) (just kidding) Now, of course, this is a serious subject which shouldn't be made light of- too much. Craving and clinging are very insiduous and therefore can arise almost anywhere. However, I wasn't aware of craving arising toward the very thing that is supposed to eliminate craving: sati. That could make for a bitch of a situation!! ;-)) Please, someone, anyone, enlighten me. > > I'm wondering what Nina might say. James: After a cursory glance, I see that she did respond. I will respond also to her post. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep Warm regards to you also, James 57458 From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 7:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello - at the first temple tikmok Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > How can there be a development of saddha in the teachings without > the development of satipatthana? What really distinguishes the Buddha's > teachings from other teachings is the truth about dhammas as anatta. Not counting lokuttara sadha, I think there is plenty of saddha that can be developed. > Without the development of an understanding of namas and rupas as anatta, > there's likely to be more and more clinging to being a good person and > having more kusala rather than a development of detachment from whatever > is conditioned now, don't you think? If there is clinging to Satipatthana, then all other kusala is neglected... Haven't you seen an example of this already? :-) It goes both ways, I think. > > You mentioned Tissa Samanera, the 7 yr old arahat and how you tell the > tale with joy. Please tell us as I don't recall it! > Ah, but you can never get from me better from the commentaries itself. I think this is in one of dhammapada (I believe in Punditta Vagga). The summary is this. The story is of a Vana-vasi Tissa Thera, which I believe means Tissa who has the forest as an abode. There was a Brahma who was a friend of Sariputta's father, who at the end of his life, became poor, but finally was able to give to Sariputta milk rice and a coarse clothing, wishing that he too would see the dhamma that Sariputta saw. At the very next life, he was born in a rich Brahman family who was a principle supporter of Sariputta. On the day that he was named, the baby managed to give a priceless cloth to Sariputta, and was named Tissa, after the Thera himself (who had been known as Upa-Tissa). It says that on all his significant life events (which there were ceremonies), the family always gave rich milked rice to the Sangha, with the Thera as the chief. At 7 years-old, he requested to his mother that he be allowed to become a samanera, which his mother immediately acquiesced because she had never once stopped his association with Sariputta. The family gave the Sangha milked rice for 7 days, during which there were "complaints" from the monks that they couldn't possibly consume milked rice so rich everyday. On the first day that he went for alms, the samenera gained 500 bowls worth of alms outside the city, and another 500 inside: this was the result of his giving of milked rice in the previous life. On the day that he went looking for blankets (or thick clothing) for monks, he gained 500 pieces outside the city, and another 500 inside the city, including 2 priceless ones from a clothing merchant who originally hid them because of their high worth but immediately offered them at the Samanera's sight because "let alone these two priceless clothings, I am prepared to give the samenera my heart". This was the result of his giving the priceless blanket to Sariputta as a baby. The samenra eventually left the city, travelling 100 yojanas (1600 km) toward a forest (next to the ocean), for he thought, if his little friends always came and talked with him, and he relatives always came to see him, he couldn't make an end to his suffering (well, talk about the importance of being in the right place!). He settled in a forest near a village where all the villagers who, after giving him alms, couldn't bear to leave and stayed to watch him until he left their sights. For the alms, he always said to them "have only happiness", and never any other dhamma talks for them. At the end of the vassa, he reached Arahatship, and Sariputta, along with all the 79 other great disciples, along with each 500 of their followers (making 40040 Arahats), came to the forest to visit the Samanera. The villagers, after having served the Theras, refused to leave unless the Theras gave them sermons. Sariputta appointed the samanera, at whom the villagers vehemently protested, for he only gave them "have only happiness" for any sermon. Sariputta then asked the samenera to explain how one can have only happiness. The samanera then explained how one can have only happiness, using teachings from all the 5 kandhakas (from all the tipitakas), and eventually concluded that an arahatship will bring only happiness. There are more story to this, but I think you get the points, and I am sure you will find the most confidence-arousing story on the samenera in the commentaries. I was looking at the story from the eyes of what a pala (bad) persons would say and think, and what a Pundit (wise) person would think. Here are some thoughts: Pundits: Please not only assure me the results of this life, but assure me the results of next lives as well: I wish to give without any remains. May I see the dhamma that you see. Our daughter in laws acted according to the dhammas when she wanted to give rich milked rice to 500-monks, with Sariputta as the chief, and with her consuming the remain of the rice, to cure her morning-sickness (because of the pregnancy). Our son's offer of this cloth is well-given (after the baby dropped the priceless blanket at Sariputta's foot, after having recognized him) I want to become a novice. If I am always busy talking to these friends, and my relatives always come to see me, I cannot make an end to my suffering. Let me go to the Buddha to seek his teaching, and leave this place. If you stay here during the vassa, we promise to keep the 5-sila, and take the uposatha twice a month. Have only happiness. Today is a full-moon day, we want to hear the dhammas. We are such lucky people to have a Thera (the samenra) that we support who is so well-versed in the dhamma, because from here on out, we can always listen to more dhamma from him. Tears from the lives suffered through all the aeons will overflow these 4 vast oceans. There is no space in this vast valley where there is no death. Pala person: How could the samenera not having ever told us these wonderful dhammas while we have given him all the supports as if we were his parents!? 57459 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:07am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > good point. > Any dhamma can be object of clinging, except nibbaana and the supramundane > cittas that realize nibbaana. James: Don't the 'supramundane cittas that realize nibbaana' fall under the general category of sati? After all, isn't it sati which allows for the realization of nibbana? There seems to be a contradiction here. > Clinging to mindfulness: wanting to have it. James: So, clinging to mindfulness is wanting to have it? Hmmm... What- should we all become drunkards delighting in pornography and illicit situations?? Then we wouldn't want mindfulness- that's for sure. Would that be fulfilling the Buddha's teachings? Seriously, I hope I don't sound overly sarcastic but I am trying to make a point. The wanting of mindfulness is akusala desire (wholesome desire). Nina, you have agreeded with me before that there is such a thing as wholesome desire so I know that you will understand what I say. The Buddha encouraged people to cultivate wholesome desire for the elimination of unwholesome desire. I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to cultivate mindfulness! Hell, I wish more people had the desire to cultivate mindfulness! Nina, your teachings appear, to me, to be counterproductive to the buddhadhamma. > Nina. > P.S. I go slowly with your other post, good point also. Take your time. I'm sorry that I am such a thorn in your side all the time. Really, I think you are a great lady! Metta, James 57460 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I hope I don't sound overly sarcastic but I am trying to make a > point. The wanting of mindfulness is akusala desire (wholesome > desire). Oops, I mean to say "kusala desire (wholesome desire)". My Pali is so terrible I don't know why I bother! ;-)) Metta, James 57461 From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 9:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple tikmok Sarah, Here are my comments on your comments. I personally don't want to get into the details of this discussion, for the reasons that I have mentioned in the previous post, (and this thread can last for a long time, and I only want to participate on a short stay). I have put forward the other model as best as I know it. I didn't think you would agree with it, but I thought you might see how it applies to my other posts. I am sorry to say that it didn't make sense to you, and it didn't seem to help you become less perplexed about my posts either. So, ultimately, I think I will just leave it as is. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > 1. I agree that we can't say what it's possible or impossible for wisdom > to know. Actually, I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible to know > any realities – whether they be phassa or the components of rupas. But we > can test out for ourselves whether they appear now. What can be known now? > When we talk about the components of eye, isn't it just the thinking which > can be known? How do you know what I know and what I don't? This is my point. While the Buddha says, phassa should be known, and Vism says it is one thing that can be most readily known, but some people say, why know phassa, because it is impossible to know except for people with very keen panna: this is an inconsistency that needs to be resolved satisfactorily (for me). > > 2. When we read the texts, such as the Vism, we are reading about the > Buddha's knowledge. Who are we and who was the Buddha? I think these texts > can just remind us of his great knowledge. If there is any attempt to be > aware of all the details he taught, we go wrong – grasping after having > such an understanding. Accepting what is beyond our understanding is a > kind of wise reflection in itself, I think. I agree with you about not being able to know everything the Buddha knows, with all its details, but we don't need to know all its details. > > 3. Impermanence and khandhas – just as now, the khandhas have fallen away > as soon as they have arisen, not carried over from moment to moment, so it > was in the past life. Everything that happened then is now forgotten and > in the same way, the khandhas we find so important now, arise and fall > away and are completely gone and forgotten. But each arising dhamma > conditions other dhammas. Nothing is lost in this sense. Like I said, I think Vism said more than this. What is said in Vism doesn't make sense in this model, and as I mentioned, that this model, in my opinion, MIGHT not be inclusive enough. > > 4. You mentioned that the other school of thought suggests you study > whatever you can to get rid of doubts and ignorance about namas and rupas. > With respect, I think it's only the development of satipatthana now as we > speak, being aware and knowing what is conditioned to appear now, that can > lead to the fading away of doubt and ignorance. Book study on its own is > quite useless. There are many scholars and translators who have no idea or > interest in namas and rupas. Again, isn't it an idea of `doing something' > rather than just understanding now? I think the sutta mentioned specifically that lobha, mana, and dithi is what you called an "idea of self". Without them, additional ideas of self are not being accumulated, even sometimes they are not being uprooted. As long as the mind is kusala, and panna that contributes to the uprooting of self is growing, then it is fine. We are always doing something and are thinking about doing something: it is the lobha, mana, dithi that we want to uproot. I mentioned in the previous post that this other model doesn't suggest just book knowledge, but book knowledge plays a more prominent role in developing wisdom. > 5. There will always be texts that seem confusing or which we don't > understand. Should we follow blindly? For example, if we read that we > should `just try to "cognize the characteristic" of past kammas' or `to > connect the past kammas to the present ones', does it make any sense? How > can past kammas be known now? They've gone already. Trying to connect in > the way you put it is just a kind of thinking, not any understanding at > all of the present dhammas now, such as seeing or thinking. Like I said, a model that something doesn't fit may not be a complete model. > 6. You mention the `decomposing' into elements `regardless if those > elements really appear to the person.' As you say, KS would call this > thinking:). Kom, what is the purpose of such study or decomposing? To gain better understanding that there is only nama and rupa. To gain better understanding of the conditionalities of all things. Again, I mentioned this in the previous post. (You just didn't like my posts ;-) ) How is > it different from a scientist's decomposing into atoms and so on? None at all, except 1) the scientists don't work on the nama 2) the scientists don't see the "paramatha" characteristics. 3) the scientists don't study it with the same goals For me, > all such kind of study again moves me away from directly knowing and being > aware of what appears right now. Then like the previous jest, you may have to stop studying something! > 7. As you say, in order to have some general, theoretical understanding of > kamma, an awareness of namas and rupas is not necessary. However, this is > not a direct or firm understanding of kamma. It can be shaken anytime or > in any life. The direct understanding of kamma and conditions can only > develop after the precise understanding of namas and rupas is established. I think as long as one is not sotapanna, any confidence developed in anyway can be shaken, not limited to just theoretical understanding. Even without Satipatthana, I don't think people understand kamas only at the theoretical reasons only. > > 8. Again you emphasise the importance of `remembering the teachings' in > order for doubts to subside. Again, I don't think a conventional > `remembering' has much bearing at all. We can see on DSG how some friends > have a detailed knowledge of suttas and others don't remember them at all. So, we just have to disagree for now... > 9. You mention how you `struggle with how this model and the texts can be > exactly one and the same'. Again, with respect, I would suggest that any > struggle or conflict like this arises because of a lack of satipatthana, > not because we haven't read or memorized enough:). Just have to disagree for now. You and I are definitely different. > If satipatthana > develops more and more, it's more and more apparent that what we read > (however abtuse it may appear) has to be in conformity with the path, with > the truths about conditioned dhammas and so on. We can just leave anything > aside if it's beyond us or raise it with good friends for discussion. Not if the friend insists that only this is correct without doubt-resolving explanations of why the model doesn't fit with the texts. Even though we couldn't possibly understand what the Buddha understands, there might be another model that has better explanations about something that doesn't make sense in the previous model. Not saying that what you says is wrong, I am just saying that your explanations don't resolve my doubts. > 10. You mention that you don't feel fully confident about satipatthana > and that you have an impressive study list of good texts which you think > will help. These are all good texts which people have interest in here – > so please quote any short passages for discussion. At the same time, KS > would stress that the study and teachings are `not in the book'. In other > words, even whilst studying, develop awareness. Even whilst NOT studying, > develop awareness too:). I think it is better for me to study with people with other inclinations at the moment (they do have the same goal of the sasana), because then I wouldn't have to spend so much time writing this particular kind of post which is more like discussions of what is absolutely right --- since I don't know what is absolutely right, it makes the discussions somewhat moot. I think I understand what A. Sujin and what you are saying quite well (I think you found my previous posts, except the recent ones, more digestible :-) ), but I am currently not finding comfort in it (hence, more text study). I wrote not to convince you, but to share a thought. I just don't want to spend too much time deviating from what I think that would help me. > > 11. You didn't agree with my `recipe' or `lack of recipe' comments and > gave an example of repeating the 32 body parts by rote, focusing on them > in a particular way and so on. You suggest a similar process for other > items based on accumulations. > > Kom, I have to say that this part of your post concerns me rather. I don't > see anything kusala at all in such study, focusing and determination to > bring peace of mind. I see it as more likely to bring more attachment and > with it, more agitation instead. We can discuss this somewhat sensitive > area further, but just if you wish. I think it might be useful to consider > more on asubha and such details. Sarah, this process is specifically mentioned in the Vism as part of Citta- visudhi; I'll take Vism's words for now, if you can forgive me. > > 12. You mention `memorization is a recipe to the ancient learning...' and > go on to ask if I think `wisdom happens more often than sanna' or if `we > can have wisdom all the time?' I'm not very clear on your point because it > seems to me that you're talking about conventional memorization, good > memory and (kusala)sanna as if they are the same. As I tried to show with > various text examples, I don't see this as being true at all. There is > sanna arising at every moment, as you know – kusala, akusala, vipaka or > kiriya sanna. I just don't see the correlation between memorization or > recital ablility, Pali expertise and present sati of namas and rupas. Because they don't understand what the goal of doing it is, or maybe they no longer need to pursue the goal. Just have to leave this as is for now, I think. Like the quote I gave on mastery before, I think that it may refer to > a degree of understanding rather than a memorization ability. Also on the > patisambhidas, you refer to `expertise in causes and effects, > languages...' etc. Again, we have to consider what is meant by expertise > in languages and so on. It has to refer to the deep, deep understanding of > the meaning – not to being a language scholar or expert as we know it. The language part is about abilities to use language expertise to bring the correct meanings. I definitely didn't suggest a language scholar or expert; I suggested people who remembered or memorized a good part of the texts who can put them into good use in regard to the goal. > > 14. Finally, you refer to how `memory is a foundation of learning, and > wisdom relies on those memory....' Wisdom does rely on sanna marking and > remembering its object. But, Kom, do you really think this is the kind of > memorization or remembering of texts or details about the 32 parts of the > eye you refer to? Partly, yes. If you look at the other model again (not from its being right or wrong), you may understand. > Thanks again for your very comprehensive response. I'll be glad to see you > (or anyone else) respond further on this or other topics. > Sarah, I personally will stop responding to this particular thread now. Maybe we can resume in a few years where I gain more confidence about what you are saying. Right now, like I mention before, I feel that the model that I have been following MAY not be inclusive enough, and am seeking a better answer (if there is one). Discussing with you doesn't help solve this and I think there is a better alternative to study the texts (in Thailand). kom 57462 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. nilovg Hallo Joop, op 04-04-2006 13:42 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Here in DSG we have discussed examples where commentaries changed the > Tipitakas. ------ N: ??????? 57463 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple nilovg Hi James, op 03-04-2006 22:54 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > If the last 1000 years of the > buddhasasana is supposed to produce only sotapannas, where the heck > do those sotapannas go after that? They have seven more lifetimes > at most, and they must be reborn as humans to become enlightened, so that commentary makes no sense at all!! ----- N: No, enlightenment can be attained in other planes, why only the human plane? If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would say: read them, study them. We cannot understand all, and that is not the ancient co's fault. We have to point to ourselves. (no need to answer again, we can debate endlessly) Nina. 57464 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 11:26am Subject: Jhana Retreat ericlonline Hello All, Jon asked me to post some of my experiences that I had on a recent jhana retreat with Leigh Brasington. Since I went on this retreat, you can already tell that I am a meditator. :-) I am only a beginner as I have been practicing for only about 7 years. My sutta study is as long also. Leigh bases his instruction on the suttas, his teacher Ayya Khema and his and his students experience. Before going to the retreat, I had many experiences in meditation over the years as I have been pretty dedicated. I have been trained in Vipassana and Anapanasati techniques by monk and lay teachers. Many of the feelings attributed to jhana I had randomly experienced over the years but there was no real ability to maintain these feelings. After about 3 days of calming down and getting used to the retreat format, Leigh suggested to look for a stable piti in the body. He said people will experience it on the lips or in the hands. Sure enough, my fingers felt like they were dipped in piti. I had experienced this pleasant energy in the hands before while doing qigong. I was quite surprised to find the piti so intense and stable. I then switched my obeject of attention from the breath to this piti. I could get it to grow so it felt like I had gloves of piti growing almost to the elbow. I could not get it to go any farther. Leigh then offered another trick to collect the piti and toss it up thru the body. This caused the whole body to ignite with piti. I had experienced this before while meditating but could not believe there was a way to make this occur at will. I spent the rest of the retreat playing with this new ability and going further to states of sukha and beyond. Even now the piti can become plain as the light of day with eyes open or closed at will in any position. I told Leigh that it seems I ended up where I usually end up when sitting. That is at a place of serene calmness. He said that I was not his first student that could enter jhana at the third level. I offer this not to brag or boast about some attainment but to help spur some on to find a teacher, go on retreat, develop a daily practice and put effort into this difficult but beneficial art called meditation. So what is the purpose of jhana? Leigh had a great metaphor. He said imagine that you are trying to cut a piece of wood with a butter knife. How long would it take? He said, if you spent some time putting a sharp edge on the knife, you would be able to cut thru the wood more quickly. So quickly that the time spent sharpening would not have been wasted. The wood is delusion and the knife is our minds ability to cut or penetrate. Like Manjushri, we need to have a sharp knife!! Jhana sharpens the knife. E 57465 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 11:29am Subject: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. icarofranca Hi Nina! Only a remark... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here in DSG we have discussed examples where commentaries changed >the > > Tipitakas. > ------ > N: ??????? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- At Durroseille´s Pali Grammar, the author states that the Pali on the Commentaries is slightly different of the original Tipitaka: more baroque, exquisite, departing from the dry and direct style of the older texts. A signal of decadence ? Is there a real decadence reflected on the more elaborate co.´s style ? That´s a question more adequate for a Pali Discussion Group, but it seems interesting clarify some of these details. Mettaya, Ícaro 57466 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 0:46pm Subject: handering nichiconn dear tep, my typo actually, walshe's abhijjhaa & domanassa are hankering and sorrow. both longings, more & less. i think of burning with aataapii. with no charcoal and no ash evident... so it is for those perfectly free, who have crossed over the flood of bondage to sense pleasures: There is no know destiny for those who have attained unagitated happiness. udana on ven. dabba mallaputtassa tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa, vu.t.thahitvaa- entering the fire element and emerging. anicca = samudaya & vaya, origination and passing away. anatta... {i do not practice satipatthana, i can't even remember metta}: "atthi kaayo" ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti or else mindfulness that 'there is a body' is established in him yaavad-eva ~naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya*, just as far as (is necessary for) a full measure of knowledge and a full measure of mindfulness, anissito ca viharati, na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati. and he dwells independent, and without being attached to anything in the world. anandajoti's footnote includes the commentary: << Yaavad-evaa ti payojanaparicchedavavatthaapanam-eta.m. Ida.m vutta.m hoti: yaa saa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti saa na a~n~nad-atthaaya. Atha kho yaavad-eva ~naa.namattaaya aparaapara.m uttaruttari ~naa.napamaa.natthaaya ceva satipamaa.natthaaya* ca, satisampaja~n~naana.m vu.d.dhatthaayaa ti attho - yaavad-eva, this designates, and is limited to, purpose. This is what is said: whatever mindfulness is established is not for another reason. Then the meaning of as far as (is necessary for) a measure of knowledge is so as to increase more and more, further and further, knowledge and mindfulness, for the increase of mindfulness and clear awareness.>> and alternative translations *for just knowledge and remembrance (Way); or *for mere understanding and mere awareness (VRI). anyway, not going anywhere here, either, but still stuck in the rupa kandam of dsg. peace, connie 57467 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 0:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala Hi James (and Nina) - Do not belittle your unique contributive role at DSG. Nobody else has been more direct to tell us when there is a disagreement. And you have been right very often too. > > Nina. > > P.S. I go slowly with your other post, good point also. > > Take your time. I'm sorry that I am such a thorn in your side all > the time. Really, I think you are a great lady! > You're right : Nina is "a great lady". I would be very happy to have her as my big sister who has much more patience and calm than my real big sister. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > (snipped) > > N: Clinging to mindfulness: wanting to have it. > > James: So, clinging to mindfulness is wanting to have it? Hmmm... > What- should we all become drunkards delighting in pornography and > illicit situations?? Then we wouldn't want mindfulness- that's for > sure. Would that be fulfilling the Buddha's teachings? Seriously, > I hope I don't sound overly sarcastic but I am trying to make a > point. The wanting of mindfulness is akusala desire (wholesome > desire). Nina, you have agreeded with me before that there is such > a thing as wholesome desire so I know that you will understand what > I say. The Buddha encouraged people to cultivate wholesome desire > for the elimination of unwholesome desire. I don't see anything > wrong with people wanting to cultivate mindfulness! Hell, I wish > more people had the desire to cultivate mindfulness! Nina, your > teachings appear, to me, to be counterproductive to the buddhadhamma. > 57468 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:11pm Subject: Sasana Shuffle buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > ----- > N: No, enlightenment can be attained in other planes, why only the human > plane? > If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would say: read them, study them. We > cannot understand all, and that is not the ancient co's fault. We have to > point to ourselves. (no need to answer again, we can debate endlessly) > Nina. > I know that you request that I not reply, but I wish to. It won't turn into an endless debate if you don't respond. Just let me have the last word! ;-)) A sotapanna will have at the most seven more existences, and all of those will be in the human or higher realms. Also, it should be accepted that the sotapanna must further develop wisdom in order to remove the taints. According to the Khana Sutta, the human realm is the most opportune realm to practice the dhamma. As this sutta states: "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; … "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable;… Note 1. The message here is that in realms where sense objects are totally disagreeable or totally agreeable it is very difficult to practice the holy life, for in the former, one is too distracted by pain; in the latter, too distracted by pleasure. Okay, this gets a little complicated to explain, because there are so many realms of existence, but it should be seen that most of the higher realms are inappropriate for developing the dhamma: 1.In the four highest realms, beings are composed entirely of mind and therefore have no opportunity to hear the dhamma and/or develop increased knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. 2.The Five Pure Abodes are the realm of non-returners and arahants. They obviously have no further development and this is a last stop realm. 3.The realm of unconscious beings obviously doesn't provide an opportunity for developing wisdom. 4.Realms 21 through 12 contain beings who remain in a constant state of jhanic bliss. Constant jhana obviously doesn't provide an opportunity to develop wisdom. 5.The six remaining realms, above human, do provide some opportunities, but the Buddha has already stated in the Khana Sutta that these realms are not very opportune for living the holy life. Nina, think about it: if this commentary is true and that the last one thousand years of the buddhasasana will contain only sotapannas, then every single sotapanna would have to become a non-returner. There would be no other option. Not only that, they would have to become a non-returner in a deva realm, because if they become a non- returner in the human realm, that blows the commentary. Also, they cannot become once-returners because the Buddha explained that once-returners only occur in the human realm and return to the human realm to become arahant: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. Nina, you write," No, enlightenment can be attained in other planes, why only the human plane?" If enlightenment doesn't happen in the human plane, it must happen in the Pure Abodes. The Buddha already said in the Khana Sutta that the other higher realms are inappropriate to attain enlightenment. It is also very unlikely that sotapannas will become non-returners in the deva realms for the reasons already explained. We are running out of options. Nina, you also write, "If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would say: read them, study them. We cannot understand all, and that is not the ancient co's fault. We have to point to ourselves." Obviously, I have given this matter some thought. I know you love the commentaries, but sometimes love is blind. Metta, James 57469 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:37pm Subject: Re: Sasana Shuffle indriyabala Hi, James - Without interrupting of the "stream of exchanges" that's going on, may I make only one comment? You say, "love is blind". Love is tainted by craving -- I do not know of any love, no matter how pure anyone claims his/her love to be, that is free from craving and its consequnce, clinging. Therefore, love is suffering in the dukkha sense. That's all! Yours truly, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > >(snipped) > Nina, you also write, "If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would > say: read them, study them. We cannot understand all, and that is > not the ancient co's fault. We have to point to ourselves." > Obviously, I have given this matter some thought. I know you love > the commentaries, but sometimes love is blind. > > Metta, > James > 57470 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, > op 04-04-2006 13:42 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > > Here in DSG we have discussed examples where commentaries changed the Tipitakas. > ------ > N: ??????? > Hallo Nina, Nina, I think your question marks are meaning: do give examples. I give three (1) Some months I did some text-study about the statement of the Buddha of the decline of Buddha Sasana in 500 years, later changed in 5000 years by commentaries. I was specially interested because it has to do with the pessimism nowadays about the state of Theravada in the world; I could not imagine that the Buddha was a pessimist. My "study" was not really complete. A derived interest was who changed it from 500 to 5000 years and why. The "who" was Buddhaghosa or the not longer existing Sinhalese texts he has used. The "why" of Buddhaghosa gave: see for example my messages #52121 and #52125 (2) There are some ultimate realities added afterwards to the list of the Dhammasangani by commentaries. One I have studied a little bit: heart-base (haddaya-vatthu) does not occur in the Abhidhamma but is added on a later moment; with good arguments one can say, but still: an addition. (3) The division of a moment into three sub-moments -- arising, presence, and dissolution -- also seems to be new to the Commentaries All this things are not important. I don't make a problem of the change, or: evolution of the Dhamma. A real living Dhamma is of course evolving as long as the core message does not disappear. An question is then why the commentaries changed the things? Not always for good reason, sometimes I get the impression that it's done only to made perfect the system. No evolution is sterile and there is no reason to deny evolution that really has taken place Metta Joop 57471 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 2:01pm Subject: Re: Jhana Retreat buddhatrue Hi Eric, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: Leigh > then offered another trick to collect > the piti and toss it up thru the body. This > caused the whole body to ignite with piti. I > had experienced this before while meditating > but could not believe there was a way to > make this occur at will. I find your post to very interesting and illuminating. Would you mind detailing the "trick" your teacher taught you to expand the piti through your body? I would be very interested to know. Thanks. Metta, James 57472 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 2:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta indriyabala Dear Nina (and Han)- There is another post about sati and other issues you sent to me, Nina. That "another post" and this one overlap a bit on the issues like 'noting' (paying bare attention to, observing without thinking -- i.e. experiencing but not yet with "direct knowledge"), understanding of rupa & nama (realities) in the present moment (a loose term that I don't know exactly what it means), and direct experiencing (direct knowing, direct knowledge, vipassana-nana). So I think I am going to postpone my reply to your other post, Nina, until this discussion between you and Han has been completed first. > > Han: > "considering (what do I have to consider?) > > Nina: > Any reality appearing now, be is seeing, visible > object, feeling, citta with attachment, thinking. > These have characteristics, different characteristics, > I do not speak now about the three general > characteristics. I speak about the visesa lakkhana, > the specific characteristics. These can be directly > experienced with sati sampajañña when they appear one > at a time. We should not think of their names, that is > thinking. Also, it is not a matter of concentration, > it is understanding that is important. I say all this, > but I find it a difficult subject myself. > > Han: > To directly "experience" visesa lakkhana (the specific > characteristics) with sati sampajañña when they appear > one at a time, do I not have to "note" the visesa > lakkhana with sati sampajañña? I am trying to put in > the role of "noting". If not noting, may I say > watching or observing or some other suitable `verb'? > I have to do something before I can experience > something, isn't it? Or, is it that I can experience > directly without any other intervention, except the > arising of sati sampajañña? > > ---------------------------- > > Han: > I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. > But what is the role of "Sammaa-vaayaama", one of the > Noble Eightfold Paths? Do I not need to put in any > effort? > > Nina: > Yes. So long as we remember that it is not my effort. > Right effort arises with right understanding of the > eightfold Path, it is kusala. > It is with detachment, alobha. The Path cannot be > developed with attachment > > Han: > So I understand that right effort is indeed necessary > (with the conditions as mentioned above: not my > effort; right understanding; without attachment, etc.) > The role of effort is also highlighted in MN 70 > Kiitaagirisutta. > In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: > "… having scrutinized, he strives (ussahati); > resolutely striving (padahati), he realizes with the > body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it > with wisdom." > Even in the gradual training prescribed in MN 70, the > effort is repeated twice with (ussahati) and > (padahati). > So, what I am saying is right effort is necessary even > in gradual training, and even if I do not wish to > interfere and make it grow faster. > It is not doing nothing and not just waiting for the > conditions to arise. .................. Tep: Above is so far a very worthwhile discussion, I must say -- because you are talking about the several stages (or steps) that "one who meditates" (samatha-vipassana) must go through in the practice of satipatthana. It is time that we go slow and address as many details as we possibly can, otherwise the discussion may end up going nowhere again. Thank you both -- a lot. Sincerely, your humble-friend Tep. ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your kind explanation. > Your explanation has been very thorough, relevant and > comprehensive. > All my questions have been ably answered. > I have noted all your points with saddhaa. > -------------------- > Please let me study a few points together with you. > ----------------------------- (snipped) > > Please let me know if my above understanding is not > correct. > Thank you very much. > With metta and deepest respect, > Han > 57473 From: Jhanananda Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:15am Subject: See for Your self jhanananda Hello friend, the Buddha used to say, ³Ehipassikho,² see for your self. So, see for yourself what the Buddha really said, There you can also see for your self what Patanjali said in his Yoga Sutras. See for yourself what these teachers said in the original Pali, and Sanskrit and in several English translations. http://www.seeforyourself.org May we become peace, Bhikkhu Jhananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) the Great Western Vehicle PO Box 41795 Tucson, AZ 85717 http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/index.html 57474 From: Trasvin Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guide through the Abhidhamma trasvin Dear Bh. Nyanatusita, I can help with OCR but we need a volunteer for proof-reading as I am not a native English speaker. Perhaps I can also help with reprinting, if the copyright and getting permission is not an issue. Best wishes, Trasvin --- Nyanatusita wrote: > Dear all, > > Recently I found an old file with the first 64 > pages of the /Guide > through the Abhidhamma/ by Nyanatiloka in the > BPS computer file backups. > This is less than half the book, which is 172 > pages. The book had been > partly typed in the mid nineties and Ven. Bh. > Bodhi did some minor > editing on it. I converted it to Word Office > and made a nice file of it. > Is there any Abhidhamma student who would like > to help to help > completing the digital input of this important > work so that the BPS > could put it on the internet and possibly > reprint it? The scanning could > be done here, but the OCR and/or the OCR > spellchecker proofreading (on > Omnipage Scansoft or the like) and then the > proofreading and formatting > of the Word file would need to be done > elsewhere. Many BPS books are out > of print and I have no time to do this myself. <....> Trasvin Jittidecharak Publisher & Director Silkworm Books 104/5 Chiang Mai-Hot Road T. Suthep, Mueang, Chiang Mai 50200 Thailand Tel 053 271889, Fax 053 275178 http://www.silkwormbooks.info eMail <....> 57475 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:39pm Subject: Re: handering ... The Noble Eightfold Path indriyabala Dear Connie (Jon, James and Nina) - Your humor is pretty good and necessary, since the content of your writing is a serious matter that is near being indigestible. You commented that 'aataapii' was " for those perfectly free, who have crossed over the flood of bondage to sense pleasures". If so, then no worldling can experience that, and for whom is the satipatthana sutta? The satipatthana sutta has been adopted by Khun Sujin as well as several vipassana schools as the "only way" to the path, and that 'satipatthana' is recommended to any ordinary people (worldlings with very few moments of mindfulness)to apply anytime and anywhere (on a bus; walking in a shopping mall; while watching a talk show, etc.). Yet the sutta's wordings (below) are clearly about the end goal . That capability does not fit the description of a worldling's mental state. " ... or else mindfulness that 'there is a body' is established in him ,just as far as (is necessary for) a full measure of knowledge and a full measure of mindfulness, and he dwells independent, and without being attached to anything in the world." >Connie: and alternative translations *for just knowledge and remembrance (Way); or *for mere understanding and mere awareness (VRI). Tep: That again does not fit the ordinary people. So what do you suggest they do? Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > dear tep, > > my typo actually, walshe's abhijjhaa & domanassa are hankering and > sorrow. both longings, more & less. i think of burning with aataapii. > > with no charcoal and no ash evident... so it is for those perfectly free, > who have crossed over the flood of bondage to sense pleasures: There is > no know destiny for those who have attained unagitated happiness. udana > on ven. dabba mallaputtassa tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa, vu.t.thahitvaa- > entering the fire element and emerging. > (snipped) > > anyway, not going anywhere here, either, but still stuck in the rupa > kandam of dsg. > > peace, > connie > 57476 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:57pm Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling. indriyabala Dear Matheesha , my Pal - Thank you for responding to my request perfectly -- i.e. by going through the "how-to-do-it" step by step. Many thanks! ((<:}{:>)) > > Tep: > >Specifically, please tell me how do you do vedananupassana of a > >neutral feeling, according to the Satipatthana sutta. If you can > >then I will be very grateful, because I can't. >Matheesha: >You will start seeing that there are oceans of neutral vedana moments followed by very few pleasant or unpleasant vedana moments. Neutral vedana moments seem to be 98% of what our lives are made of. >I hope that is practical enough! But you must do it otherwise im wasting all this time :) Find a time when your mind is quiet and devoid of papanca - that is, when vipassana bears fruit, otherwise you will be lost in thought. Even better- make it quiet with a little anapanasathi- the antidote for the distracted mind as mentioned in the suttas and experienced to be true as well. Tep: The 'exercise' is simple enough. I can be aware of the three kinds of feeling (one at a time) with no difficulty. But I am not aware of (pajanati) the beginning and the termination (dissolution) of a neutral feeling. What should I do next? Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > M: OK, Lets start. What are you experiencing this current > moment? ..You have to focus now.. hearing a sound, feeling a > sensation? > - > - > - > - > - > - > focus and experience each one, one after the next. Let the your > awareness jump from one thing to the next as it naturally does, > without any control from your part -except for focusing on what it > come into contact with and experiencing it clearly (and not diffusely > as we do in unconcentrated normal life). > - > - > - > - > - > - > now,start seeing whether you find what it encounters to be pleasant, > unpleasant or neither (neutral) each moment, when it comes into > contact with them, one after the other. Just focus on seeing this > aspect alone -dont bother about identifying what you are experiencing > (-focus on vedana and not sanna) > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > You will start seeing that there are oceans of neutral vedana moments followed by very few pleasant or unpleasant vedana moments. Neutral vedana moments seem to be 98% of what our lives are made of. > (snipped) 57477 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Nina and Tep, After I had replied to Nina (# 57456), I saw Tep’s message to Nina (and Han) (# 57472) where Tep said that there is another on-going post about sati and other issues which overlap a bit. Therefore, I looked at previous messages and saw # 57450 (Nina to Tep). There, among others, I saw Nina quoting Jon. Jon: As far as I am concerned, I am not very particular about English wordings. In my mind I think in Burmese way. Therefore, if I can be advised that I have to do “something” (“noting” or “focusing attention on”, or whatever appropriate English expression) before I can directly experience the visesa lakkhana of dhammas as they appear one at a time, I will be happy. My point of contention is I have to do “something”, and not just waiting passively, before I can directly experience the dhammas with sati sampajañña. That “something” can be the steps mentioned in MN 70, or “noting” or “focusing attention on”, or Nina may have some other advice. With metta and deepest respect, Han 57478 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 5:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > As far as I am concerned, I am not very particular > about English wordings. In my mind I think in Burmese > way. Therefore, if I can be advised that I have to do > "something" ("noting" or "focusing attention on", or > whatever appropriate English expression) before I can > directly experience the visesa lakkhana of dhammas as > they appear one at a time, I will be happy. > > My point of contention is I have to do "something", > and not just waiting passively, before I can directly > experience the dhammas with sati sampajañña. That > "something" can be the steps mentioned in MN 70, or > "noting" or "focusing attention on", or Nina may have > some other advice. > >____________ Dear Han and Jon, Here is a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" (endquote Thein Nyun) I think this quote will be one you and Jon can both agree on and perhaps comment on during your interesting discussion. Robert 57479 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 5:34pm Subject: Re: Hello - moving to the second temple rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha (and Nina), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > > The logic in the Co is meaningless when it comes to legth of the > > sasana. To say that in the last 1000 years there will only be > > sotapannas for example means that after that 1000 years those > > soatapannas will have to become sakadagamins, anagamins, and > arahaths > > and they will be born in human realms as well. This is not a > teaching > > of the Buddha because he didnt say anything of the sort, nor from > a > > reasonably intelligent logical mind at that. Anagamins live for > > millions of years in suddhavasa. So to speak of a 1000 years is > > nothing. What it does look like is that it is a product of an > overly > > analytical and theoretical mind which likes to classify. > > > Very good point! I never did like that commentary, and it is pulled > out quite often in this group because it fits quite well with the KS > passive approach; but now you have pointed out something about that > commentary which makes no sense. If the last 1000 years of the > buddhasasana is supposed to produce only sotapannas, where the heck > do those sotapannas go after that? They have seven more lifetimes > at most, and they must be reborn as humans to become enlightened, so > that commentary makes no sense at all!! Are sotapannas supposed to > just disappear until the next Buddha arrives? Doesn't make any > sense to me. > > +++++++++++ Dear James, In the Tipitaka I think not one of sotapannas who died at that time of the Buddha were reborn as human- all went to deva world or higher. The commentary was referring to this human world. In fact after the 5000 years of this Buddha sasan end in the human realm there is still Dhamma existing and there are arahats, anagami etc in the higher realms. Robert 57480 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:51pm Subject: Contemplative Jeffery S Brooke --- Re: See for Your self abhidhammika Dear Jeffrey S, Brooks How are you? It is great that you are promting yourself, your views on religions and your activities. It is your right to do so in a society where free speech is valued and shared by all of us. The only thing I would like to strongly suggest to you is that you should make extra effort to not seem to be misleading the people into believing that you might be a Buddhist monk. According to your writing about yourself, you wrote: "He (Jhananada) is not anyone's disciple, devotee, representative or student." Thus, it is clear that you are not the Buddha's disciple, devotee, representative or student. Then, it follows that there is no need for you to camoufalge yourself with the Bhikkhu title and appearance (wearing the robe of a Bhuddhist monk and a shaven head). But, you signed off your post as Bhikkhu Jhananda. At first, I was confused by that signature because Bhikkhu title is reserved for Theravada Buddhsit monks. As you are not ordained by Theravada Samgha, you should not use the title "Bhikkhu" reserved for a member of Theravada Samgha simply because this can lead to confusion. As you claimed to be a western contemplative, why don't you just choose an English title such as Contemplative or Western Contemplative, thus making a proper lable "Contemplative Jefferey S Brooke." You do not have to use Pali title and Pali name, which can be confusing and misleading the people. If you really believe that you have genuine attainments, you should also believe in yourself and your ability to communicate them in English terms as a native speaker of English. You do not have to use Pali technical terms reserved for the teachings of the Buddha and his faithful Bhikkhu disciples, representatives, students and followers. I trust that your spiritual attainments would help you see my suggestions are sincere and good for you and the people in contact with you. With compassion, Suan Lu Zaw A Humble Lay Disciple of Gotama the Buddha PS-- do not forget to take your medication regularly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jhanananda wrote: Hello friend, the Buddha used to say, ³Ehipassikho,² see for your self. So, see for yourself what the Buddha really said, There you can also see for your self what Patanjali said in his Yoga Sutras. See for yourself what these teachers said in the original Pali, and Sanskrit and in several English translations. http://www.seeforyourself.org May we become peace, Bhikkhu Jhananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) the Great Western Vehicle PO Box 41795 Tucson, AZ 85717 http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/index.html 57481 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta (correction) hantun1 (Correction) Dear Nina, In my last message (#57456) addressed to you I had written the following paragraph. -------------------- Han: So I understand that right effort is indeed necessary (with the conditions as mentioned above: not my effort; right understanding; without attachment, etc.) The role of effort is also highlighted in MN 70 Kiitaagirisutta. In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation: “… having scrutinized, he strives (ussahati); resolutely striving (padahati), he realizes with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.” Even in the gradual training prescribed in MN 70, the effort is repeated twice with (ussahati) and (padahati). So, what I am saying is right effort is necessary even in gradual training, and even if I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. It is not doing nothing and not just waiting for the conditions to arise. -------------------- There were some mistakes. Therefore, please replace the above paragraph with the following paragraph. -------------------- Han: So I understand that right effort is indeed necessary (with the conditions as mentioned above: not my effort; right understanding; without attachment, etc.) The role of effort is also highlighted in MN 70 Kiitaagirisutta. In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation: “… when zeal (chanda) has sprung up, he applies his will (ussahati); having applied his will, he scrutinizes (tuleti); having scrutinized, he strives (padahati); resolutely striving, he realizes with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.” Even in the gradual training prescribed in MN 70, one has to strive resolutely (padahati). So, what I am saying is right effort is necessary even in gradual training, and even if I do not wish to interfere and make it grow faster. It is not doing nothing and not just waiting for the conditions to arise. -------------------- I am sorry for the mistakes. With metta and deepest respect, Han 57482 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 10:43pm Subject: Not Resisting Anything ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Imperturbable is one not Opposing any Painful feeling! The Blessed Buddha once said to some deadly sick bhikkhus: A bhikkhu should await his time aware and clearly comprehending... This is our instruction to you!!! While a bhikkhu lives in this way, aware & clearly comprehending, enthusiastic, keen, & determined, if there arises in him a painful feeling, then he understands this: 'There has arisen in me this painful feeling. Now that is dependent, not independent! Dependent on what? Dependent on just this contact! But this contact is impermanent, conditioned, & dependently arisen... So when the painful feeling has arisen in dependence on a contact, that is impermanent, conditioned, & dependently arisen, how could it ever then itself be permanent?' He dwells in this way always contemplating the impermanence of any contact and the transience of any painful feeling, and he considers thus the inevitable vanishing, fading away, ceasing, & the therefore necessary relinquishment of all conditioned constructions! Therefore is his latent tendency to aversion towards any painful contact and instinctive repulsion of any painful feeling gradually eliminated... He understands: With the breakup of this body, at the exhaustion of this fragile life, any feeling, all that is felt, neither being opposed, nor clung to, will cool down right here... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [214] section 36: feeling. Vedana. The Sick-Ward. 8. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57483 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 1:24am Subject: Re: Hello - moving to the second temple buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > In the Tipitaka I think not one of sotapannas who died at that time > of the Buddha were reborn as human- all went to deva world or > higher. James: Yes, that is true because they had such very good kamma- by giving to the sangha, practicing the precepts, observing holy days, etc. They would all naturally be reborn in the deva realms. However, eventually that karma is going to run out, and the deva realms don't offer as many opportunities to cultivate good karma because everything is so blissful, so eventually they are going to be reborn again in the human realm (which, I believe, includes humanoid life on other planets in our universe). > > The commentary was referring to this human world. In fact after the > 5000 years of this Buddha sasan end in the human realm there is > still Dhamma existing and there are arahats, anagami etc in the > higher realms. James: You might want to read post 56748 where I detail these issues, as I see them. > Robert > Metta, James 57484 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. nilovg Hallo Joop, op 04-04-2006 22:54 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > (1) Some months I did some text-study about the statement of the > Buddha of the decline of Buddha Sasana in 500 years, later changed in > 5000 years by commentaries. > I was specially interested because it has to do with the pessimism > nowadays about the state of Theravada in the world; I could not > imagine that the Buddha was a pessimist. My "study" was not really > complete. A derived interest was who changed it from 500 to 5000 > years and why. > The "who" was Buddhaghosa or the not longer existing Sinhalese texts > he has used. > The "why" of Buddhaghosa gave: see for example my messages #52121 and > #52125 -------- N: I translated a treatise form Thai about this subject. I quoted already: The Vinaya, Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long) and the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, explain about the endurance and the disappearance of the true Dhamma (saddhamma) in the Dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read that the Buddha said to Ånanda: ³If, Ånanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Brahma-faring, Ånanda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But since, Ånanda, women have gone forth... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ånanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years....² The Commentary to the Sutta ³The Gotamid², in the Gradual Sayings, the Manorathapúraùí, gives an additional explanation: ³The words vassasahassaÿ, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges (paìisambidhas 2). But when we take into consideration the following thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only developed insight and did not attain jhåna). In the next period of thousand years (the third period) there are anågåmis (who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadågåmís (who have attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner) . In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotåpannas (who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner)." I made a footnote: All arahats have eradicated defilements completely, but arahats have different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the arahat with the highest attainment has the four analytical knowledges. N: Thus, the Co. gives more details and explanations, but it does not change the teachings. The dispensation still lasts, and it is longer than 500 years, we can notice that. Thus, an explanation of the sutta was not superfluous. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts explaining about the disappearance of the teachings. We read (431): ³For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (paìivedha) and disappearance of practice (paìipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the practice is the way....² In the Sumaògalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta), the decline of Buddhism in the Buddha era of a former Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, has been explained, not the Dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. That is why we find here different numbers of years. We read: ³... the lineage of recluses dressed in white is not able to cause the endurance of the dispensation since the time of the Buddha Kassapa. The Dispensation could endure only thousand years with those who have attained the four analytical knowledges, another thousand years with those who had the six supranatural powers (abhiññås 4), another thousand years with those who had three knowledges (tevijjå ), another thousand years with those who had ³dry insight² (sukkha vipassakas), and another thousand years with those who observe the Påtimokkha. Thus, the Dispensation declined beginning with the penetration of the truths by the bhikkhus who came afterwards, and the transgression of the precepts by the bhikkhus who came afterwards. Since that time the appearance of another Buddha had no obstruction anymore . ------- J: (2) There are some ultimate realities added afterwards to the list of > the Dhammasangani by commentaries. One I have studied a little bit: > heart-base (haddaya-vatthu) does not occur in the Abhidhamma but is > added on a later moment; with good arguments one can say, but still: > an addition. ---- N: In the Patthana of the Abhidhamma the Buddha said: 'that ruupa' denoting the physical base for all cittas except the five pairs of sense-cognitions. The Co. gave a name to this ruupa: heartbase. It is a question of naming, not adding another ruupa. --------- J: (3) The division of a moment into three sub-moments -- arising, > presence, and dissolution -- also seems to be new to the Commentaries ------- N: This is not new when we consider the arising and falling away of citta. It arises, is present for an extremely short moment and then falls away. Also one unit of ruupa, that is sabhaava ruupa, has arising, presence and dissolution. Ruupa does not fall away as rapidly as naama. In the Co. sometimes names are given to make things clear, but the Buddha sasana is not changed. ------ Nina. 57485 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: not being idle. nilovg Dear Han, I understand your point and will discuss this with Lodewijk in the restaurant where we are going today. My discussions with Tep on what is sati may also touch on many of your points. Rob K quoted on elements and I am always very impressed by this quote. Also what I quoted before from the Atthasalini: on the four wheels. We read in the Expositor (I, 84) that the proximate cause of kusala citta is right attention, yoniso manasikaara. The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 350) states as to wholesome consciousness that this arises The four favorable conditions are dwelling in a suitable country, the support of good people, right aspirations, past practice of meritorious deeds. I quote again from the Vis. Tiika studies: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity.> The last sentence may be an answer, and I understood that you do already. For our benefit, it may be a good idea if you tell us more about your kusala so that we can anumodana. Making this known when appropriate, is a way of daana. Nina. op 05-04-2006 01:10 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > My point of contention is I have to do “something, > and not just waiting passively, before I can directly > experience the dhammas with sati sampajañña. That > “something can be the steps mentioned in MN 70, or > “noting or “focusing attention on, or Nina may have > some other advice. 57486 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 1:44am Subject: Contemplative Jeffery S Brooke --- Re: See for Your self buddhatrue Hi Suan (and Jeffrey S. Brooks), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jeffrey S, Brooks > > How are you? > > It is great that you are promting yourself, your views on religions > and your activities. It is your right to do so in a society where > free speech is valued and shared by all of us. > > The only thing I would like to strongly suggest to you is that you > should make extra effort to not seem to be misleading the people > into believing that you might be a Buddhist monk. > > According to your writing about yourself, you wrote: > > "He (Jhananada) is not anyone's disciple, devotee, representative or > student." > > Thus, it is clear that you are not the Buddha's disciple, devotee, > representative or student. Then, it follows that there is no need > for you to camoufalge yourself with the Bhikkhu title and appearance > (wearing the robe of a Bhuddhist monk and a shaven head). > > But, you signed off your post as Bhikkhu Jhananda. > > At first, I was confused by that signature because Bhikkhu title is > reserved for Theravada Buddhsit monks. > > As you are not ordained by Theravada Samgha, you should not use the > title "Bhikkhu" reserved for a member of Theravada Samgha simply > because this can lead to confusion. > > As you claimed to be a western contemplative, why don't you just > choose an English title such as Contemplative or Western > Contemplative, thus making a proper lable "Contemplative Jefferey S > Brooke." You do not have to use Pali title and Pali name, which can > be confusing and misleading the people. > > If you really believe that you have genuine attainments, you should > also believe in yourself and your ability to communicate them in > English terms as a native speaker of English. > > You do not have to use Pali technical terms reserved for the > teachings of the Buddha and his faithful Bhikkhu disciples, > representatives, students and followers. > > I trust that your spiritual attainments would help you see my > suggestions are sincere and good for you and the people in contact > with you. > > With compassion, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > A Humble Lay Disciple of Gotama the Buddha I believe that Jeffrey S. Brooks has the right to refer to himself as a buddhist monk is he so wishes. As Buddhism spread to other countries, I believe that there were many examples of people who became self-ordained as buddhist monks. Not only that, using your logic, Mahayanist monks shouldn't be allowed to call themselves buddhist monks either because they believe in unverified sutras and scriptures. I don't see why you should care what Jeffrey S. Brooks refers to himself as- especially coming from you. Suan, you refer to yourself as a teacher of "Bodhiology" which is nothing but an invented psuedo- science under the auspices of being "Buddhist", even though the Buddha never taught it. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Metta, James 57487 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (& Nina), Nina wrote: >”According to the 'Designation of Human Types", Puggala Paññatti of the Abhidhamma, there are four types of people: 1: ugghatitaññu, who already during a given explanation penetrates the truth. Think of Ven. Assaji and Ven. Saariputta: after just a few words theyattained: all dhammas that arise from a cause... 2. vipacitaññu: who realizes the truth after a more detailed explanation. 3. neyya puggala as I explained, after much guidance. The Co. adds: noble friendship with a kaliyanamitta, asking questions, yoniso manaasikaara. These are also conditions mentioned in the suttas. 4. padaparama, as explained, someone who understands the pariyatta, but does not attain.” --- matheesha wrote: M: Thank you for you reply. The explanation of the 4 puggalas was nice. My only issue there is that the sutta itself doesnt define those people as the Co has done. .... S: As Nina mentioned, the Puggala Pa~n~natti is an Abhidhamma text. The same details are given in Anguttara Nikaya: ***** AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS) "Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana-padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four." Metta, Sarah ========= --- matheesha wrote: > There was this belief in sri lanka 50 years ago that arahathood in > this lifetime was impossible and everyone would make determinations > to become enlightened with the maitreya buddha (the next one). Such > talk has almost completely faded away and would be considered > outdated there because of the great strides made in rediscovering > buddhism and its practices. .... S: Of course these apparent 'great strides' which have rediscovered 'buddhism and its practices' leading to the belief that 'arahathood in this lifetime' is quite possible just may be indicative of further decline.....just may be:)). ============================================ 57488 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 5:11pm Subject: Vism.XVII,68 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 68. As to 'condition' (paccaya), the word-meaning here is this: It [the fruit] comes from that, depending thereon (pa.ticca etasmaa eti), thus that is a condition (paccaya, see note 2); the meaning is, [a state] occurs by not dispensing with that. What is meant is: when a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. But as to characteristic, a condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. The words condition, cause, reason, source, originator, producer, etc., are one in meaning though different in the letter. So, since it is a cause in the sense of a root, and a condition in the sense of assistance, briefly a state that is assistantial in the sense of a root is a [root-]cause condition. ------------------------------------- Note 2. Pa.ticco as a declinable adjective is not in P.T.S. Dict. Pa.tiiyamaana ('when it is arrived at'): 'When it is gone to by direct confrontation (pa.timukha.m upeyamaano) by means of knowledge's going; when it is penetrated to (abhisamiyamaana), is the meaning' (Pm. 555). The word pa.ticca (due to, depending on) and the word paccaya (condition) are both gerunds of pa.ti + eti or ayati (to go back to). ********************************* 68. paccayoti ettha pana aya.m vacanattho, pa.ticca etasmaa etiiti paccayo. apaccakkhaaya na.m vattatiiti attho. yo hi dhammo ya.m dhamma.m apaccakkhaaya ti.t.thati vaa uppajjati vaa, so tassa paccayoti vutta.m hoti. lakkha.nato pana upakaarakalakkha.no paccayo. yo hi dhammo yassa dhammassa .thitiyaa vaa uppattiyaa vaa upakaarako hoti, so tassa paccayoti vuccati. paccayo, hetu, kaara.na.m, nidaana.m, sambhavo, pabhavotiaadi atthato eka.m, bya~njanato naana.m. iti muula.t.thena hetu, upakaaraka.t.thena paccayoti sa"nkhepato muula.t.thena upakaarako dhammo hetupaccayo. 57489 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? ken_aitch Hi Matheesha, -------------- KH:> > I wouldn't use the term "unconditioned meditation" (there is only one unconditioned dhamma) but "non-conditioned meditation" might be a good alternative term for "formal meditation" (pannatti-bhavana). > > M: > All meditation is conditioned -whether intentional or unintentional. --------------- Are you saying that everything – real or illusory (paramattha or pannatti)– is conditioned? (More questions to follow depending on your answer.) Ken H 57491 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks very much for coming in and sharing your thoughts on meditation. Meditation means different things to different people, but it is generally understood to refer to the practice of the teachings in some form or other. I find it helpful to consider 'right practice' and 'wrong practice' in terms of right view and wrong view, since these are the underlying dhammas involved. Right view (samma ditthi) is another name for the wholesome mental factor panna (wisdom, understanding). It sees things as they truly are. Wrong view (miccha ditthi) is one of the unwholesome mental factors, rooted in attachment (lobha). It takes things to be other than they are, but with the belief that things are being seen as they truly are (wrong view is very insidious). The 'things' that are seen rightly or wrongly are dhammas, variously described in the suttas as the khandhas (aggregates), ayatanas (bases), dhatus (elements) etc. These dhammas are of course with us all the time. So the right practice of the teachings is the (momentary) arising of consciousness accompanied by panna that sees dhammas as they truly are. How does this panna arise? On my reading of the texts, the most important conditions for the arising of this panna, apart of course from the extent to which it has been developed in previous lives, are: hearing the teachings properly explained in a manner suited to our level of accumulated understanding; considering and carefully reflecting on what has been heard so that it is properly understood; and applying or relating ('comparing' as explained by Nina in her discussion with Tep on the Kitagiri Sutta) what has been understood to the present moment. I know this sounds a bit like step 1 for newbies, but that is where we tend to loose the thread. We think there should be much more to it, that there must be something to be done, whether it be in the way of sitting and focussing on dhammas, maintaining particular things in mind as we go about our life, responding in a particular way to akusala mental states, reciting passages from the texts, studying the texts, listening to recordings of talks on the teachings, going to retreats etc. the list is endless. But none of these things in and of themselves can be regarded as, or as necessarily conducive to, the practice of the teachings. Each of them may be done in a way that is clearly not consistent with the factors mentioned in the suttas as being the essential factors for the development of the path. The understanding of dhammas is something that grows gradually and invisibly. It requires great patience and the confidence that everything the Buddha said about the importance of association with the right persons and repeated hearing of the teachings was said for a purpose. So as I see it the best thing we can 'do' is to keep on with our interest in the teachings themselves, beginning always with the correct intellectual understanding of what is found in the Tipitaka and its commentaries. With this as a basis, and the realisation that whatever we might be hearing/reading about or reflecting on it relates to the dhammas of the present moment, it becomes more readily apparent whether or not what we happen to be doing at any given moment is with or without wrong view. And if there's the expectation of results, then it's highly likely that one of the underlying dhammas will indeed be wrong view. Hope this helps with the meditation issue. Jon Scott Duncan wrote: >Dear Jon (et al), > >May I please try to enter your conversation? > >"But a much more important issue, I think, . . . is whether a >particular level of samatha is required in order for the development >of awareness to begin. My understanding is that the answer to that >question is clearly 'No'. In which case I'd like to suggest that >there is more to be gained by discussing the development of >satipatthana than of samatha, speaking in general terms. > >"On my reading of the teachings, the development of insight occurs >when any presently arisen dhamma is directly experienced by conscious >that is accompanied by panna (the mental factor that is >'wisdom' or 'understanding'). > >"Now it is an essential part of the teaching that all dhammas (other >than Nibbana) are conditioned, and that they arise only as and when >the conditions for their arising are fulfilled. (That, after all, is >the meaning of 'conditioned'.) > >"The mental factor of panna is itself one such conditioned dhamma. >It's arising will depend on all the conditions necessary for its >arising to be fulfilled. There are some suttas that mention what >these conditions are, and other suttas that describe the process >whereby panna comes to be developed to the level of enlightenment. >But to my knowledge, these conditions do not include the kind of >deliberate 'practice' that is suggested by the idea of noticing dhammas. > >"Dhammas can only be directly experienced, or noticed, by panna. So >there is a problem here. There cannot in fact be the noticing of >dhammas unless panna has been developed. I believe this means that >what we take to be the noticing of dhammas is really only a form of >focussing attention on what we think (from having read or heard about >them)dhammas to be." > >In listening to the recordings of the sessions with A. Sujin (and >thank you very much for making these available) I heard you and the >others to have been discussing this matter. > >I happen to meditate on a daily basis. I gather that this is the case >because of the particular set of accumulations which condition this. >I am struck, in listening to the recordings, that there is no one who >meditates and that "meditation" cannot be misunderstood as an act >which, by conscious direction, can cause the arising of anything. It >may be a fact that my getting up each day to meditate, if understood >properly, is a function of other conditions. > >I gather that a correct understanding of the act of meditation I find >myself doing would be that it is so because of accumulations. I then, > perhaps, find that I am able to "meditate" with right view, I guess >(if this also happens to arise out of conditions). This would mean, >to me, that the act is a chance which arises to allow for >concentration to arise, to be cultivated, to be accumulated - not by >will or wanting it but merely because it is given to me that such is >the way of it now. > >Then, I wonder further, perhaps the distinction made between practise >with meditation or without is a false one. If there is no self who >meditates or who causes to arise sati, pa.n.na, or any other cetasika, >then all of the time can be devoted to the cultivation of these >factors. Whether one finds that one sits for periods or not, >apparently pa.n.na, for example, arises wherever and whenever >conditions are conducive to its arising. Since I can't help that I >find meditation to be something I do, then perhaps someone else can't >help that it is not. What if it arises that I no longer sit? Or that >someone suddenly finds it important to start? > >"The man discreet, on virtue planted firm, >In intellect and intuition trained; >The brother ardent and discriminant: >'Tis he may from this tangle disembroil. > >"What is meant therein is, that there remains nothing for 'the man' to >do in regard to that wisdom by means of which he is said to be >'discreet,' for his wisdom has been made perfect in virtue of kamma >done in a previous existence. And in 'ardent and discriminant' it is >meant that he is to be persevering by means of the said energy, and >comprehending by means of wisdom; and establishing himself in virtue, >cultivate calm and insight indicated by way of intellect (or mind) and >intuition (or wisdom)," (The Path of Purity, pp. 4-5, Pe Maung Tin, >trans.). > >Please correct this view I've expressed. > >Sincerely, > >Scott. > > 57492 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? matheesha333 Hi Ken, > -------------- > KH:> > I wouldn't use the term "unconditioned meditation" (there is > only one unconditioned dhamma) but "non-conditioned meditation" might > be a good alternative term for "formal meditation" (pannatti-bhavana). > > > > > M: > All meditation is conditioned -whether intentional or > unintentional. > --------------- > > KH: Are you saying that everything – real or illusory (paramattha or > pannatti)– is conditioned? M: I might make more sense if I ask you a question in reply - can you EXPERIENCE anything, real or illusory (you would need to experience even an illusion to know it exists), if it wasnt conditioned. metta Matheesha 57493 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple sarahprocter... Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: >I have put > forward > the other model as best as I know it. I didn't think you would agree > with it, but I thought you might see how it applies to my other posts. > I > am sorry to say that it didn't make sense to you, and it didn't seem to > help you become less perplexed about my posts either. .... S: On the contrary, I do see how it applies to your other posts and I don’t find them perplexing. I find it very interesting to follow how you're reflecting and viewing the different 'models'. I like to hear the examples you give, too. I also think it’s important to have a ‘bridge’ between different schools of thought and to keep discussion open. Of course this is what we try to do here. The point is not to try and convince others of views (as Nina was saying recently), but to share, consider and discuss our understandings together. For myself, I find I can easily grasp the snake by the tail, get carried away by trying to work out all the details in the texts and it’s not helpful. In this regard, I find the reminder in the Atthasalini useful about the person who grasps the Abhidhamma in the wrong way, making his mind run to excess and becoming mentally distracted and vexed. Of course, for others, they may study and memorize entire Pitakas or commentaries without any vexation or distraction at all. I wouldn’t set any rule in this regard. We can just learn a little more about our own accumulations whenever there is any right understanding arising, even when carried away by the story of dhammas. It is this right understanding which shines the light only. I appreciate you've met many fine examples of bhikkhus for whom the knowledge and memorization of texts is as natural as it is for some of us to forget the names or Pali terms. .... > How do you know what I know and what I don't? This is my point. > While the Buddha says, phassa should be known, and Vism says it is > one thing that can be most readily known, but some people say, why > know phassa, because it is impossible to know except for people with > very keen panna: this is an inconsistency that needs to be resolved > satisfactorily (for me). .... S: No, we can’t know what another knows at any time and I apologise if I’ve given any impression to the contrary. I haven’t heard anyone say it’s ‘impossible’ to know phassa. But we can test out whether there is any awareness of it now. That’s all that counts. If we particularly would like to be aware of phassa or to know it now, then isn’t that attachment again? (And yes, there can be attachment to having satipatthana or anything else too as you pointed out in your other post – again, we can only find out for ourselves). Kom, some other points, such as on the Vism ref on past kamma etc are interesting, but a) I appreciate you don’t wish to discuss them further and b) you’d need to give me the refs to save time. .... > I mentioned in the previous post that this other model doesn't suggest > just book knowledge, but book knowledge plays a more prominent role > in developing wisdom. .... S: Yes, I understood that and I appreciate the ‘other model’s’ keen study of details. I’ll look forward to hearing any explanations we’ve missed here. .... > Like I said, a model that something doesn't fit may not be a complete > model. .... S: I don’t see it quite like that. For example, you made mention of birds (in the Satip commentary??) that understood satipatthana. Or we could use example of talking animals in the Jatakas. I’d just say, who knows and does it matter? If not being able to ‘fit’ all details into our ‘model’ of satipatthana leads to doubts about the essence of the model, I think they may be examples of the ‘distraction’ referred to in the Atthasalini. What about the examples of the wolf children and nirutti patisambhida in the commentaries and so on.....lots of examples... .... > For me, > > all such kind of study again moves me away from directly knowing > and being > > aware of what appears right now. > > Then like the previous jest, you may have to stop studying something! ..... S: It depends again on the studying! I wouldn’t like to set any rule either way:-)) However it is, it’s conditioned anyway. ..... >>S:We can just leave > anything > > aside if it's beyond us or raise it with good friends for discussion. > K:> Not if the friend insists that only this is correct without > doubt-resolving > explanations of why the model doesn't fit with the texts. Even though > we couldn't possibly understand what the Buddha understands, there > might be another model that has better explanations about something > that doesn't make sense in the previous model. ..... S: That’s true. Alternatively, we might find the doubts are arising not because of the lack of a good explanation of an issue, but because we have become stuck on an issue which is moving us away from the essence of the teachings. I know I’ve found over the years that many issues which seemed important in the past have become non-issues when just a little more understanding has developed. Of course, others may have different experiences. In any case, I’d be glad to hear any of these ‘better explanations’ that you’ve found helpful. ..... > I wrote not to convince you, but to share a thought. I just don't want > to > spend too much time deviating from what I think that would help me. .... S: Well, what helps you, please share with us too!! .... >>S:I think it might be useful to > consider > > more on asubha and such details. > K:> Sarah, this process is specifically mentioned in the Vism as part of > Citta- > visudhi; I'll take Vism's words for now, if you can forgive me. .... S: Nothing to forgive!! Sometime, I’d like to hear more about your understanding of the Vism passage on this area. Let’s leave it for now. .... > The language part is about abilities to use language expertise to bring > the correct meanings. I definitely didn't suggest a language scholar or > > expert; I suggested people who remembered or memorized a good part > of the texts who can put them into good use in regard to the goal. .... S: I see it a little differently, but again we can pick it up later. .... > Sarah, I personally will stop responding to this particular thread now. > > Maybe we can resume in a few years where I gain more confidence > about what you are saying. Right now, like I mention before, I feel > that > the model that I have been following MAY not be inclusive enough, and > am seeking a better answer (if there is one). Discussing with you > doesn't help solve this and I think there is a better alternative to > study > the texts (in Thailand). ... S: Oh dear! (to copy Matheesha:-)). Seriously, I’m glad you have good access to the texts in Thailand and would just like to encourage you to share what you find of help with us here from time to time:). Although it may not (probably doesn’t) sound like it, I think it’s healthy to check around, seek the best answers and really consider and reflect for yourself what is right rather than taking anyone’s word for it. In the end, only the Dhamma is our teacher. Keep sharing your reflections and the problems with the various models as you see them. Thanks again for this discussion. I know it's been frustrating for you, but I've appreciated it a lot. (thx also for your other post and the details:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Have a good trip to Sri Lanka and send us an e-card if you have a chance! ======== 57494 From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:19am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. tikmok Dear James, The teaching is simple (I know you love this beginning already). Anything can be an object of lobha (attachment), mana (conceit), and dithi (wrong view), except for the supramundate realities (paths, fruits, and nirvana), not excluding mindfulness, wisdom, and the rest of the stuffs that we perceive as good. From my experience (which I urge anyone to be careful with!), you don't need to be a monk to realize that mindfulness is a good object for lobha, mana, and ditthi. When you think of mindfulness that it is yours, it's lobha, when you think I have mindfulness, it's mana, and when you think that (probably not as often, if you take the Buddha's teachings well enough) it is you, then it's dithi. I think there are always plenty of conceit to go around, not barring any dhamma forum/group. It's easy to think, I am practicing mindfulness while other people are doing something else. Anything good is great object for lobha, mana, and dithi. In the commentaries to the Satipatthana suttra, when the commentator summarized the "practice" into the 4 noble truths, he inevitably pointed out mindfulness as the truth of suffering. This may seem strange at first, as we are more prone to be aware of the more serious states like anger, jealousy, and strong lobha, while in fact, even mindfulness of those strong states must be known as nama-rupa, as conditioned dhamma, as something that is impermanent, suffering, and non-self. Because without this knowledge, then we would cling to the mindfulness as mine, me, and self as well, and liberation stays impossible. I have an interesting story I heard from a friend who is not a Buddhist. He said that he always believed that "he" (nama) is separate from his body (as the body changes continuously), but when he started practicing meditations, this perception changed. He started believing that even nama is not a self, but there is the awareness of the nama that is "him." kom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > > >James: How could there be clinging to mindfulness? > > > I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > > > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." > > >And in that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, > > > but it really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. > > > The object of the clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. > > > But how could one cling to real mindfulness? > > > > > > > Tep: Clinging to mindfulness may result from craving (lobha) -- the > > favourite theme of Khun Sujin. When there is a self who wants > stronger > > and longer mindfulness, then there is craving on the mindfulness. > When > > there is craving, it is certain that clinging to mindfulness will > be > > inevitable. I think the object of clinging is the perceived > > better-mindfulness. > > James: This is an interesting idea which I haven't encountered > before. (Of course I am aware of the meditation controversy in DSG, > but I didn't know that it extended to mindfulness also.) > Hmmmm...what to say?? Well, you know what, I think Kom would be the > best person to address this issue! As a monk, he was supposed to > spend the majority of his day dedicated to mindfulness- did he find > that he started to cling to mindfulness??? Please Kom, if you are > reading, could you address this issue? As for myself, I hardly > spend a moment of my day dedicated to true mindfulness, so I don't > think I have much to say. Although, I guess according to Nina, I am > very safe that way! ;-)) (just kidding) > 57495 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:40am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling. matheesha333 Hi Tep, ol' pal, T:> Thank you for responding to my request perfectly -- i.e. by going > through the "how-to-do-it" step by step. Many thanks! ((<:}{:>)) M: :)), my pleasure! what ever works, as long as it does! > Tep: The 'exercise' is simple enough. I can be aware of the three > kinds of feeling (one at a time) with no difficulty. But I am not > aware of (pajanati) the beginning and the termination (dissolution) of > a neutral feeling. What should I do next? M: It is easier to start noticing the Arising first (note the order in the satipatthana sutta about this). So lets start with that. You must now be aware of the new sound arising, or the new sensation arising. Focus more on the begining/start of each of those new 'experiencings' (phassa). - - - - - Can you see each one starting? If you can then start noticing when the vedana (neutral-ness/pleasantness/unpleasantness) begins. This is more subtle. You will find it easier to notice pleasant/unpleasant vedana rather than neutral ones. - - - - - When you do experience the start/arising, what has happened is that your mindfulness indirya has grown in sensitivity. - - - When you have successfully completed the arising, start looking at the ending. You will see first, that the ending is obscured by the arising of the next experience since they happen in very close proximity in time. Also look to see how the vedana continues - try to stay with it, until its end. This will require more focus/sensitivity of mindfulness than before to experience these subtle happenings. Give it time, keep at it and you will start experiencing them. metta Matheesha > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, > > > (snipped) > > > M: OK, Lets start. What are you experiencing this current > > moment? ..You have to focus now.. hearing a sound, feeling a > > sensation? > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > focus and experience each one, one after the next. Let the your > > awareness jump from one thing to the next as it naturally does, > > without any control from your part -except for focusing on what it > > come into contact with and experiencing it clearly (and not diffusely > > as we do in unconcentrated normal life). > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > now,start seeing whether you find what it encounters to be pleasant, > > unpleasant or neither (neutral) each moment, when it comes into > > contact with them, one after the other. Just focus on seeing this > > aspect alone -dont bother about identifying what you are experiencing > > (-focus on vedana and not sanna) > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > - > > You will start seeing that there are oceans of neutral vedana > moments followed by very few pleasant or unpleasant vedana moments. > Neutral vedana moments seem to be 98% of what our lives are made of. > > > (snipped) > 57496 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple matheesha333 Hi Sarah > ***** > AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS) > > "Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? > > He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= > sankhepa~n~nu]: > > he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= > vitthaarita~n~nu]: > > he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: > > he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana-padam > eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without > understanding it]. > > These are the four." M: Thank you for that. Yes, this is what I meant. uggha.tita~n~nu - the buddha didnt say what that is. He sometimes says specifically what those definitions mean, but in this case the translators have tried to use the meanings INFERED from pali and tried to predict what the buddha meant, when they themselves dont know. Atleast if there was a context to put these words in, or other suttas which have used these words we might have understood more, but as far as I know there isn't. 'learns by taking hints' is 'of flashing insight' in sister uppalavanna's translation. Both tranlations suit different practice methods and maybe used as 'evidence' to support each method. metta Matheesha 57497 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:55am Subject: Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta indriyabala Dear RobertK (Attn. Han and Jon) - Your quote from the Abhidhamma scholar Thien Nyun is a two-sided sword that can severely cut a fool. On the one hand, it is useful because it clearly and convincingly states how one may concoct the idea of "I" who is the doer and the receiver of the fruit of an effort; it also states that the doer may become attached to his effort and his care in performing his deed. However, by stating that these "four imaginary characteristic functions of being" (the four ideas above) are delusion because they bring about a wrong "deep-rooted belief in their existence", the quote may mislead a fool to reject all kinds of effort. A foolish person (uninstructed in the Dhamma of the ariyans), who does not know right effort (samma-vayamo), may jump to the conclusion that "do nothing" is the only way to Nibbana. Best wishes, Tep, your humble friend. ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > > As far as I am concerned, I am not very particular > > about English wordings. In my mind I think in Burmese > > way. Therefore, if I can be advised that I have to do > > "something" ("noting" or "focusing attention on", or > > whatever appropriate English expression) before I can > > directly experience the visesa lakkhana of dhammas as > > they appear one at a time, I will be happy. > > > > My point of contention is I have to do "something", > > and not just waiting passively, before I can directly > > experience the dhammas with sati sampajañña. That > > "something" can be the steps mentioned in MN 70, or > > "noting" or "focusing attention on", or Nina may have > > some other advice. > > > >____________ > Dear Han and Jon, > Here is a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in > his preface to the > DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about > to > be performed and > > 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed > to > its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3)"I can perform" and > > 4) "I can feel". > > Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.But the > elements > have not the time or span of duration to carry out such > functions" (endquote Thein Nyun) > > I think this quote will be one you and Jon can both agree on and > perhaps comment on during your interesting discussion. > Robert > 57498 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:16am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Kom, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > > Dear James, > > The teaching is simple (I know you love this beginning already). > Anything can be an object of lobha (attachment), mana (conceit), and > dithi (wrong view), except for the supramundate realities (paths, fruits, > and nirvana), not excluding mindfulness, wisdom, and the rest of the > stuffs that we perceive as good. > > From my experience (which I urge anyone to be careful with!), you > don't need to be a monk to realize that mindfulness is a good object for > lobha, mana, and ditthi. When you think of mindfulness that it is yours, > it's lobha, when you think I have mindfulness, it's mana, and when you > think that (probably not as often, if you take the Buddha's teachings well > enough) it is you, then it's dithi. I think there are always plenty of > conceit to go around, not barring any dhamma forum/group. It's easy > to think, I am practicing mindfulness while other people are doing > something else. Anything good is great object for lobha, mana, and > dithi. > > In the commentaries to the Satipatthana suttra, when the commentator > summarized the "practice" into the 4 noble truths, he inevitably pointed > out mindfulness as the truth of suffering. This may seem strange at > first, as we are more prone to be aware of the more serious states like > anger, jealousy, and strong lobha, while in fact, even mindfulness of > those strong states must be known as nama-rupa, as conditioned > dhamma, as something that is impermanent, suffering, and non- self. > Because without this knowledge, then we would cling to the mindfulness > as mine, me, and self as well, and liberation stays impossible. > > I have an interesting story I heard from a friend who is not a Buddhist. > He said that he always believed that "he" (nama) is separate from his > body (as the body changes continuously), but when he started practicing > meditations, this perception changed. He started believing that even > nama is not a self, but there is the awareness of the nama that is "him." > > kom > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > > > > >James: How could there be clinging to mindfulness? > > > > I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > > > > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." > > > > >And in that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, > > > > but it really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. > > > > The object of the clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. > > > > But how could one cling to real mindfulness? > > > > > > > > > > Tep: Clinging to mindfulness may result from craving (lobha) -- the > > > favourite theme of Khun Sujin. When there is a self who wants > > stronger > > > and longer mindfulness, then there is craving on the mindfulness. > > When > > > there is craving, it is certain that clinging to mindfulness will > > be > > > inevitable. I think the object of clinging is the perceived > > > better-mindfulness. > > > > James: This is an interesting idea which I haven't encountered > > before. (Of course I am aware of the meditation controversy in DSG, > > but I didn't know that it extended to mindfulness also.) > > Hmmmm...what to say?? Well, you know what, I think Kom would be > the > > best person to address this issue! As a monk, he was supposed to > > spend the majority of his day dedicated to mindfulness- did he find > > that he started to cling to mindfulness??? Please Kom, if you are > > reading, could you address this issue? As for myself, I hardly > > spend a moment of my day dedicated to true mindfulness, so I don't > > think I have much to say. Although, I guess according to Nina, I am > > very safe that way! ;-)) (just kidding) > > > Oh, this can happen, and that can happen…blah, blah, blah…words, words, words…blah, words, blah, words, blah, blah words…. ;-)) First, if the teaching is simple, could you please quote to me where the Buddha taught it simply? You mention something about the commentaries, but I would like something from the Buddha, if possible. Second, I asked you for your personal experience, but instead you gave me the same old party line! ;-)) What did you find happened during your monk experience? Did you find that you clung to mindfulness? If so, why and what did you do about it? If not, why did it not happen? Metta, James 57499 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:18am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta .. the neutral feeling. indriyabala Hi Matheesha, dear pal - Thank you for the second part of the exercise. >M: >This will require more focus/sensitivity of mindfulness than before to experience these subtle happenings. Give it time, keep at it and you will start experiencing them. It sure seems so! Your instruction shows that experiential knowledge (nana) about nama & rupa comes only after concentration (and right effort). Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, ol' pal, > (snipped) > > M: It is easier to start noticing the Arising first (note the order > in the satipatthana sutta about this). So lets start with that. > > You must now be aware of the new sound arising, or the new sensation > arising. Focus more on the begining/start of each of those > new 'experiencings' (phassa). > - > - > - > - > - > Can you see each one starting? If you can then start noticing when > the vedana (neutral-ness/pleasantness/unpleasantness) begins. This is > more subtle. You will find it easier to notice pleasant/unpleasant > vedana rather than neutral ones. > - > - > - > - > - > When you do experience the start/arising, what has happened is that > your mindfulness indirya has grown in sensitivity. > - > - > - > When you have successfully completed the arising, start looking at > the ending. > You will see first, that the ending is obscured by the arising of the > next experience since they happen in very close proximity in time. > Also look to see how the vedana continues - try to stay with it, > until its end. > > This will require more focus/sensitivity of mindfulness than before > to experience these subtle happenings. Give it time, keep at it and > you will start experiencing them. > (snipped) 57500 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guide through the Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Dear Trasvin, Jon and I were both so glad to see you posting and to read of your kind offer of assistance with this book. Yes, you'd be just the person to help the BPS with it and it's a very useful slim text, (even though the book print is a little difficult for me to read). How is the group and your discussions going in Chengmai? Do you still listen to recordings of A.Sujin while you go to the supermarket?? It was really great to have you on the trip in India*.....we're working to finish the editing of those India discussions and I know you'll enjoy them then. The other edited ones are on www.dhammastudygroup.org (or we or Sukin can send you cds). You're welcome to copy any onto dhammahome website. Now you've broken the ice here (so to speak), pls add any other short intro info or just chip in on any thread. Let us know how the 'Guide' project works out if you help with this and anumodana for volunteering to do so. Metta, Sarah *I think Nina and others will remember you as 'Joo', your nickname. I hope I've got it right! ========= --- Trasvin wrote: > Dear Bh. Nyanatusita, > > I can help with OCR but we need a volunteer for > proof-reading as I am not a native English > speaker. Perhaps I can also help with reprinting, > if the copyright and getting permission is not an > issue. 57501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: senseless correspondance. nilovg Hi James, If that is your opinion, I feel that it is senseless to continue our correspondance. Best regards, Nina. op 04-04-2006 17:07 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Nina, your > teachings appear, to me, to be counterproductive to the buddhadhamma. 57502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guide through the Abhidhamma nilovg Dear Khun Jiw (Trasvin) I join Sarah in her anumodana. I was also happy to see you here. Looking forward to hearing more from you, Nina. op 05-04-2006 15:25 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Now you've broken the ice here (so to speak), pls add any other short > intro info or just chip in on any thread. > > Let us know how the 'Guide' project works out if you help with this and > anumodana for volunteering to do so. 57503 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:31am Subject: Re: Sasana Shuffle matheesha333 so much conflict in this group, in our minds its not worth it nothing's worth it discard everything as you would discard a rag learn peace know peace -------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > > ----- > > N: No, enlightenment can be attained in other planes, why only the > human > > plane? > > If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would say: read them, > study them. We > > cannot understand all, and that is not the ancient co's fault. We > have to > > point to ourselves. (no need to answer again, we can debate > endlessly) > > Nina. > > > > I know that you request that I not reply, but I wish to. It won't > turn into an endless debate if you don't respond. Just let me have > the last word! ;-)) > > A sotapanna will have at the most seven more existences, and all of > those will be in the human or higher realms. Also, it should be > accepted that the sotapanna must further develop wisdom in order to > remove the taints. > > According to the Khana Sutta, the human realm is the most opportune > realm to practice the dhamma. As this sutta states: > > "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the > opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six > Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is > undesirable, never desirable; … > "It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the > opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six > Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is > desirable, never undesirable;… > Note 1. The message here is that in realms where sense objects are > totally disagreeable or totally agreeable it is very difficult to > practice the holy life, for in the former, one is too distracted by > pain; in the latter, too distracted by pleasure. > > Okay, this gets a little complicated to explain, because there are > so many realms of existence, but it should be seen that most of the > higher realms are inappropriate for developing the dhamma: > > 1.In the four highest realms, beings are composed entirely of mind > and therefore have no opportunity to hear the dhamma and/or develop > increased knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. > 2.The Five Pure Abodes are the realm of non-returners and arahants. > They obviously have no further development and this is a last stop > realm. > 3.The realm of unconscious beings obviously doesn't provide an > opportunity for developing wisdom. > 4.Realms 21 through 12 contain beings who remain in a constant state > of jhanic bliss. Constant jhana obviously doesn't provide an > opportunity to develop wisdom. > 5.The six remaining realms, above human, do provide some > opportunities, but the Buddha has already stated in the Khana Sutta > that these realms are not very opportune for living the holy life. > > Nina, think about it: if this commentary is true and that the last > one thousand years of the buddhasasana will contain only sotapannas, > then every single sotapanna would have to become a non-returner. > There would be no other option. Not only that, they would have to > become a non-returner in a deva realm, because if they become a non- > returner in the human realm, that blows the commentary. > > Also, they cannot become once-returners because the Buddha explained > that once-returners only occur in the human realm and return to the > human realm to become arahant: > > "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total > ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of > passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on > returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to > stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > Nina, you write," No, enlightenment can be attained in other planes, > why only the human plane?" If enlightenment doesn't happen in the > human plane, it must happen in the Pure Abodes. The Buddha already > said in the Khana Sutta that the other higher realms are > inappropriate to attain enlightenment. It is also very unlikely > that sotapannas will become non-returners in the deva realms for the > reasons already explained. We are running out of options. > > Nina, you also write, "If a person finds the Co lacks sense, I would > say: read them, study them. We cannot understand all, and that is > not the ancient co's fault. We have to point to ourselves." > Obviously, I have given this matter some thought. I know you love > the commentaries, but sometimes love is blind. > > Metta, > James > 57504 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Eric ericlonline wrote: >>When you say above, "without the ability to enter and maintain >>jhana, there is no insight", do you mean no insight, or no >>enlightenment? If you mean no insight, does that mean no >>satipatthana, no panna, no understanding of dhammas, no mundane >>path development whatsoever? >> > >According to the Upanisa without jhana >there is no "Knowledge and vision >of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)". > >So, there is no this type of insight. >There may be intellectual insight and >understanding but that is not what the >insight above is. And if we are really >honest with ourselves that is what >Buddhist vipassana is. > > What the sutta says is that samadhi (concentration) is a supporting condition for yathabhutañanadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they are). This is not the same, to my mind, as saying that there can be no insight until jhana has been attained. Is it your belief, based on this sutta, that the development of insight cannot even begin unless one has already attained jhana, and that before that there can be only an intellectual understanding of the teaching on vipassana? (As far as I know, that is not the view of the translator of the sutta and author of the Wheel article (Bh Bodhi).) Jon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html 57505 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:47am Subject: Re: senseless correspondance. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > If that is your opinion, I feel that it is senseless to continue our > correspondance. > Best regards, > Nina. > op 04-04-2006 17:07 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > > > Nina, your > > teachings appear, to me, to be counterproductive to the buddhadhamma. > Now wait a second!! Weren't you just telling Tep that the purpose of this group is to simply share opinions and to not to try to convince anyone to change their views? Now, when I share my opinion, you deem that conversation is no longer possible. So which is it? Is this a group to share opinions or do we all have to reach agreement or discussion is senseless??? If it is the latter than I will leave this group now- just say the word! Also, you cut out the majority of my post and simply focus on my last statement, taking it completely out of context. You make it appear like my opinion is that everything you teach is contrary to the buddhadhamma, and that isn't what I meant or said! I said that if we can't purposefully practice sati, according to you, for fear of clinging to it, then my opinion is that you are teaching something contrary to the buddhadhamma. The Satipatthana Sutta teaches to purposefully practice sati and it doesn't mention anything about clinging to sati! This is my opinion only. You may deem my opinion senseless, and that would be fine with me- because that would be your opinion. But when you deem the entire discussion is senseless, then there is no point for me to participate in this group anymore. Metta, James 57506 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 8:12am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > > N: Perhaps we can learn little by little when there is not > mindfulness but > > some clinging, such as clinging to understanding, to mindfulness. > > James: I don't understand this point. How could there be clinging > to mindfulness? I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." And in > that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, but it > really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. The object of the > clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. But how could one cling > to real mindfulness? >+++++++++++ Dear James, Sure, clinging loves all good things. Even genuine Jhana: From the Patthana (translation by Narada p. 405). "having emerged from the jhana they esteem and review chnage of lineage..they esteem, enjoy and delight in the aggregates which are the sates producing resultant states. Taking it as estimable object arises lust, arises wrong view." Robert 57507 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:31am Subject: Contemplative Jeffery S Brooks --- Re: See for Your self abhidhammika Dear James (and Jeffrey Brooks) How are you? You wrote: "I believe that Jeffrey S. Brooks has the right to refer to himself as a buddhist monk is he so wishes." I am afraid not, James. He forfeited that right by decalring that "He (Jhananada) is not anyone's disciple, devotee, representative or student." He did not even have the right to call himself a Buddhist if he were not a devotee of Buddhism, let alone a Buddhist monk. You aslo wrote: "Not only that, using your logic, Mahayanist monks shouldn't be allowed to call themselves buddhist monks either because they believe in unverified sutras and scriptures." Modern-day Mahayanists had had a very long Samgha lineage in the form of Mahasanghikas going back to centuries very close to the time of Buddha's Parinibbana, even though said to be started by Aacarya Naagarjuna in 2nd century AD. The monks who later called themselves Mahasanghikas were properly ordained by the mainstream Theravada Samgha before they broke away from the latter and established their own Mahasanghika sect. As Mahayana monks, the descendants of Mahasanghikas, humbly regard themselves as devotees of the Buddha and follow Vinaya, they can be regarded as Buddhist monks of a different order. Jeffrey's case is very different. As you would recall, he presented himself as someone with Jhaana and Magga attainments, and, by implication, declared himself to be superior to the Buddhist monks. With textual evidences from Pali Tipitaka, I have refuted Jeffrey's claims and accusations of Buddhist monks during the early months of 2004 until he backed down. His main accusation was that the Buddha did not teach vipassanaa. Jeffrey's claims and accusations were nothing more than selfish ego- boosting excercise by the method of discrediting and denigrating Theravada Samgha. Theravada Samgha is always very willing to ordain any man with a sound mind and good principles who is sincere and ready to renounce the lifestyle of householders and unhealthy habits. No need to self- ordain oneself to follow the noble homeless lifestyle as a Buddhist monk! With compassion, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Suan (and Jeffrey S. Brooks), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jeffrey S, Brooks > > How are you? > > With compassion, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > A Humble Lay Disciple of Gotama the Buddha I believe that Jeffrey S. Brooks has the right to refer to himself as a buddhist monk is he so wishes. As Buddhism spread to other countries, I believe that there were many examples of people who became self-ordained as buddhist monks. Not only that, using your logic, Mahayanist monks shouldn't be allowed to call themselves buddhist monks either because they believe in unverified sutras and scriptures. I don't see why you should care what Jeffrey S. Brooks refers to himself as- especially coming from you. Suan, you refer to yourself as a teacher of "Bodhiology" which is nothing but an invented psuedo- science under the auspices of being "Buddhist", even though the Buddha never taught it. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Metta, James 57508 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 8:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala Dear RobertK and James - You wrote: > Dear James, > Sure, clinging loves all good things. Even genuine Jhana: From the > Patthana (translation by Narada p. 405). "having emerged from the > jhana they esteem and review chnage of lineage..they esteem, enjoy and > delight in the aggregates which are the sates producing resultant > states. Taking it as estimable object arises lust, arises wrong view." > Robert > But the Buddha never warned about clingings to jhana, sati, or vayama; although miccha-samadhi, miccha-sati and miccha-vayama were possible. Why did he not? There is a chance that you may know some suttas that I am not aware of. In that case, please advise. Sincerely, Tep ====== 57509 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) mlnease Hi Eric (and Jon), ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) >So, there is no this type of insight. >There may be intellectual insight and >understanding but that is not what the >insight above is. And if we are really >honest with ourselves that is what >Buddhist vipassana is. Surely you're not suggesting that those of us who disagree with you are not "really honest with ourselves"? We have been accused of being 'either stupid or liars' before but not by you I think. Let's try to keep our disagreements civil. mike ---------- 57510 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:11am Subject: Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hey James, > I find your post to very interesting and illuminating. Would you > mind detailing the "trick" your teacher taught you to expand the > piti through your body? I would be very interested to know. Sure glad too. It is not so much an expansion as it is like lighting a fire that is ready to go up quick. I had my appendix removed a few years ago and it was septic so they could not close the wound after surgery. So they sent a nurse to come to my house. When she saw my Buddha statue, she opened up a bit and showed me how she uses reiki to heal. She made me place one hand on my heart and the other 6 inches over my stomach and asked if I felt anything and indeed I did. I felt an energy in the hand over the stomach. So, while on retreat and trying to get the piti to grow, I separated my hands about 6 inches and turned them towards each other. This made the piti grow. Sort of like a convection oven. Once the piti was strong and stable enough, the trick is to collect it and toss it up thru the body. You sort of concentrate as hard as you can on the piti then imagine you are tossing it up thru the body. You dont move your hands or anything but collect the energy and toss it up and in like you are tossing a handkerchief up with your hand. You have to play with the timing to get the body to ignite. Your awareness sweeps up thru the body from the piti in the hands and the body will catch fire with piti. It took awhile to get the timing down, etc. Now I do not have to do this. I can sort of pull back my normal awareness in the body and the piti arrises of its own accord. It is like it is always there but a more gross awareness impedes you from noticing it. Like I said before, I can do this in any position eyes open or closed. When I am working on this in meditation, I try and knead the piti into different areas of the body. Like the similies in the suttas. It is either the soap making apprentice or a lake being fed by a underground stream that describes this. Both those similies express pretty much exactly how it is. You get to a state where there is piti everywhere in the body, from head to toe. Sometimes in a long sit when I can no longer tolerate the pain in my knees and I need a break, I will cause the piti to arrise and the pain goes away. Gives me a break without having to move and disturb others near me. Personally, I dont like piti that much. It is too distracting for me. I tend to gravitate towards the calm passed sukha. E 57511 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline Hey Jon, Jon wrote: > What the sutta says is that samadhi (concentration) is a supporting condition for yathabhutañanadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they are). This is not the same, to my mind, as saying that there can be no insight until jhana has been attained. >Is it your belief, based on this sutta, that the development of insight cannot even begin unless one has already attained jhana, and that before that there can be only an intellectual understanding of the teaching on vipassana? (As far as I know, that is not the view of the translator of the sutta and author of the Wheel article (Bh Bodhi).) From my experience and intellectual understanding. In the second jhana, vicara and vitaka is dropped. Now this is translated in different ways depending on the context. Either as thought or intentions. Either way, the implication is that discursive cogitating thought is let go of. This has to happen for the vipassana following jhana to occur. If we are honest and we cannot let go of thought, then we do not experience this type of insight. Our insights, no matter how clear and powerful remain in the realm of thought only. Now the intellect and thought can lay the groundwork. It can get you to the edge of the diving board. But you got to get wet sooner or later. E 57512 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline Hello Mike, > >So, there is no this type of insight. > >There may be intellectual insight and > >understanding but that is not what the > >insight above is. And if we are really > >honest with ourselves that is what > >Buddhist vipassana is. > Surely you're not suggesting that those of us who disagree with you are not "really honest with ourselves"? We have been accused of being 'either stupid or liars' before but not by you I think. Let's try to keep our disagreements civil. Are you a moderator of this group? Jon and I are old friends. You dont have to get bent out of shape by what we say to each other. The 'challenge' I gave was in regard to a specific thing meant for Jon. But you seemed to take it personally. Why? 57513 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries style. nilovg Hi Icaro, thanks. The Co, quotes an enormous amount from the Tipitaka. As to style, I do not know anything. I read Tiika to the Vis. every day, I do not detect decadence in Dhammapala. What I know is that there are more similes in Co. and also that many word associations are used in the explanations. Not with the aim to be linguistic, but to help the readers to understand the meaning. Modern linguistics frown on these, but as said, the aim of the Co. is different. Also debates between different schools are renderd: this one says this, that one says that. It is all faithfully reported. Nina. op 04-04-2006 20:29 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@...: > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > At Durroseille´s Pali Grammar, the author states that the Pali on > the Commentaries is slightly different of the original Tipitaka: more > baroque, exquisite, departing from the dry and direct style of the > older texts. A signal of decadence ? Is there a real decadence > reflected on the more elaborate co.´s style ? > That´s a question more adequate for a Pali Discussion Group, but it > seems interesting clarify some of these details. 57514 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 11:59am Subject: Re: Jhana Retreat buddhatrue Hi Eric, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hey James, > > > I find your post to very interesting and illuminating. Would you > > mind detailing the "trick" your teacher taught you to expand the > > piti through your body? I would be very interested to know. > > Sure glad too. It is not so much > an expansion as it is like lighting > a fire that is ready to go up quick. > > I had my appendix removed a few years ago > and it was septic so they could not close > the wound after surgery. So they sent a > nurse to come to my house. When she saw my > Buddha statue, she opened up a bit and > showed me how she uses reiki to heal. She > made me place one hand on my heart and the > other 6 inches over my stomach and asked > if I felt anything and indeed I did. I > felt an energy in the hand over the stomach. > > So, while on retreat and trying to get the > piti to grow, I separated my hands about > 6 inches and turned them towards each other. > This made the piti grow. Sort of like a > convection oven. Once the piti was strong > and stable enough, the trick is to collect > it and toss it up thru the body. You sort > of concentrate as hard as you can on the > piti then imagine you are tossing it up > thru the body. You dont move your hands > or anything but collect the energy and > toss it up and in like you are tossing > a handkerchief up with your hand. You > have to play with the timing to get the > body to ignite. Your awareness sweeps up > thru the body from the piti in the hands > and the body will catch fire with piti. > It took awhile to get the timing down, etc. > > Now I do not have to do this. I can sort > of pull back my normal awareness in the > body and the piti arrises of its own > accord. It is like it is always there but > a more gross awareness impedes you from > noticing it. Like I said before, I can > do this in any position eyes open or closed. > > When I am working on this in meditation, > I try and knead the piti into different > areas of the body. Like the similies in > the suttas. It is either the soap making > apprentice or a lake being fed by a underground > stream that describes this. Both those similies > express pretty much exactly how it is. You get > to a state where there is piti everywhere in > the body, from head to toe. Sometimes in a long > sit when I can no longer tolerate the pain > in my knees and I need a break, I will cause > the piti to arrise and the pain goes away. > Gives me a break without having to move and > disturb others near me. > > Personally, I dont like piti that much. > It is too distracting for me. I tend to > gravitate towards the calm passed sukha. > > E > This is very interesting information; thanks so much for sharing it. I guess your home nurse was a part of your karma to prepare you for this path of jhana. It is good that you had such an opportunity. I will keep your advice in mind. Throughout my meditation experience, I haven't had piti arising throughout my body- but it has been localized in various parts of my body. Now you have given me some ideas to use to hopefully spread that piti forward and upward. Thank you so much. Good luck with your practice! Metta, James 57515 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Robert (Tep and Jon) I thank you for posting a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher U Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu. I have never read any work by U Thein Nyun, and I cannot understand what he meant by that passage. I will be most grateful if you would kindly tell me how you understand it. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Han and Jon, > Here is a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher > Thein Nyun in > his preface to the > DhatuKathu (PTS) 57516 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 2:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, ... > In the Co. sometimes names are given to make things clear, but the Buddha > sasana is not changed. > ------ > Nina. > Hallo Nina It's clear that I can not convince you that compared by the Teachings of the BuddhaTheravada is changed (a little bit, not the core) by commentaries. And I hope it's clear to you too that you have not convinced me that the commentaries did not change anything, only explain. First about the decline of Buddha Sasana in 500 or 5000 years. "³The words vassasahassaÿ, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges …" Nina: " I made a footnote: All arahats have eradicated defilements completely, but Arahats have different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the arahat with the highest attainment has the four analytical knowledges. N: Thus, the Co. gives more details and explanations, but it does not change the teachings. The dispensation still lasts, and it is longer than 500 years, we can notice that. Thus, an explanation of the sutta was not superfluous." Joop: In fact you added a fourth example of my statement: as far as I know there is nowhere in the Suttas talked about different kind of arahats as you footnoted. I think lovers of hierarchy have added this idea. And how you can say that changing 500 years in 5000 years is only giving more details and explanations? Yes, the dispensation still lasts, so either the prophecy of 500 years was wrong or it was not a prophecy at all. Because the Buddha can not be wrong is must the the second possibility! Perhaps the Buddha did not make that prophecy at all but monks who are afraid of woman. The second example about the so called 'heart-base' (haddaya-vatthu) N: In the Patthana of the Abhidhamma the Buddha said: 'that ruupa' denoting the physical base for all cittas except the five pairs of sense- cognitions. The Co. gave a name to this ruupa: heartbase. It is a question of naming, not adding another ruupa. Joop: That commentary not just gave it a name; he also decided that is was not one of the rupas already mentioned in the Dhammasangani; he also decided that the base was the heart. Why not the knee or the brains? Did the Buddha already say the base is the heart? I don't think so. Again, my problem is not that commentaries in their interpretations added and changed a little bit the Teachings to Theravada. I'm glad that there is dynamics in Dhamma, Dhamma is not damaged by dynamics. Metta Joop 57517 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) indriyabala Hi, Eric {and Jon }- I am delighted by the clear explanation you have given to Jon. Three cheers for you ! > > From my experience and intellectual > understanding. In the second jhana, > vicara and vitaka is dropped. Now this > is translated in different ways depending > on the context. Either as thought or > intentions. Either way, the implication > is that discursive cogitating thought > is let go of. This has to happen for > the vipassana following jhana to occur. > If we are honest and we cannot let go > of thought, then we do not experience > this type of insight. Our insights, no > matter how clear and powerful remain > in the realm of thought only. > > Now the intellect and thought can lay the > groundwork. It can get you to the edge > of the diving board. But you got to get > wet sooner or later. > > E > ............ With true appreciation, T ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hey Jon, > > Jon wrote: > > > What the sutta says is that samadhi (concentration) is a > supporting condition for yathabhutañanadassana (knowledge and vision > of things as they are). This is not the same, to my mind, as saying > that there can be no insight until jhana has been attained. > > >Is it your belief, based on this sutta, that the development of > insight cannot even begin unless one has already attained jhana, and > that before that there can be only an intellectual understanding of > the teaching on vipassana? (As far as I know, that is not the view > of the translator of the sutta and author of the Wheel article (Bh > Bodhi).) > (snipped) 57518 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four ken_aitch Hi Larry, As you know, I see all formal vipassana and samatha practices as wrong practice. So I do not believe the deliberate contemplation, "This is not my wallet," with the objective of having panna or alobha, will be successful. We both understand that, ultimately, there is no wallet and no wallet owner: there are only namas and rupas. Do you agree that this understanding of ours comes from hearing, studying and discussing the Dhamma - not from contemplating conventional objects? It gets complicated when some thoughts (for example, "Ultimately, there is no me, no you, no wallet") are ways of considering satipatthana, while other thoughts (for example, "This is not my wallet") are contrived imitations of satipatthana. The difference is not always clear, but I think it comes down to an impersonal study of nama and rupa on the one hand, and a personal journey ("This is my experience of nama, my experience of rupa, my experience of anatta") on the other. You wrote: ---------------- > Hi Ken, I disagree with this: Ken H: "attachment would not be overcome by contemplating, "This is not my wallet" if, in fact, it *was* our wallet. And conceit would not be overcome by contemplating, "I am not the person who is entitled to be served next by the shop assistant" if, in fact, it was our turn. And lastly, wrong view would not be not overcome by pointing to oneself and saying, "This is not my self!" L: This is the most profound and penetrating kind of contemplation because this is what we really think is me and mine. All these "facts" are erroneous. On the level of self view, self is whatever we claim as self, our possessions and attributes. The bare "I" is just pride, conceit. To see these as ultimately basic realities is how we know they are not me and mine. To see ultimate reality in conventional reality is how insight works. We need both. This wallet really is not mine. > -------------- If I understand you correctly, you are saying that insight into ultimate reality must be preceded by a conventional observation. So you are saying, for example, that the monks in the Satipatthana Sutta observed walking and then, as a consequence, directly observed rupa. That is the modern version of satipatthana ("I am walking; I am talking; I am looking to the left; I am putting on my clothes; . . .") but it falls into the second category I mentioned, doesn't it? It is a personal quest for MY satipatthana. It is not an impersonal study of the Buddha's teaching – e.g., of where it explains that a monk who is walking (or who is in any other posture) knows the ultimate reality of posture (rupa) because he has heard and understood the Buddha's teaching. Am I right, or am I right? :-) Ken H 57519 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four lbidd2 Ken H: "Am I right, or am I right? :-) " Hi Ken, In my view you are wrong. Who cares about ultimate realities? No one. What we cling to are conventional realities. Therefore, the most profitable object of insight is a conventional reality. [In this discussion I'm not concerned with how insight comes about. That's another, very exhaustively discussed, issue.] If we take the 'resolution of the compact' as a model of insight, the compact is a conventional reality and it is resolved into ultimate realities. However, regardless of models, it seems to me insight just happens without a lot of analysis. You could jump out of bed one day with no self view. Self view gone forever because of no attachment to anything as me or mine. Analyzing things in terms of ultimate realities is not really necessary. Whether an object is conventional or ultimate it is not you or yours. [An object that is 'mine' is essentially 'me' or 'part of me'.] So there you are, an aitch without a self. Good show!!! Larry 57520 From: "mlnease" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 6:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) mlnease --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Are you a moderator of this group? No--a rhetorical question, I assume. > Jon and I are old friends. You dont > have to get bent out of shape by what > we say to each other. I wasn't at all "bent out of shape"-- > The 'challenge' I gave was in regard > to a specific thing meant for Jon. I beg your pardon. I took "ourselves" to refer to the members of this public forum. I do apologize sincerely for interjecting. > But you seemed to take it personally. As above. > Why? Though (obviously) not a moderator, I think each of us has the right if not the responsibility to try to encourage civility on the list. Since I took your message to refer to any who disagree with you I felt my response was appropriate. Sorry that you took it personally. Goodbye and good luck. mike 57521 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for your kind reply. I want to learn here and this is helpful. J: "Right view (samma ditthi) is another name for the wholesome mental factor panna (wisdom, understanding). It sees things as they truly are. Wrong view (miccha ditthi) is one of the unwholesome mental factors, rooted in attachment (lobha). It takes things to be other than they are, but with the belief that things are being seen as they truly are (wrong view is very insidious). "The 'things' that are seen rightly or wrongly are dhammas, variously described in the suttas as the khandhas (aggregates), ayatanas (bases),dhatus (elements) etc. These dhammas are of course with us all the time. So the right practice of the teachings is the (momentary) arising of consciousness accompanied by panna that sees dhammas as they truly are. I know this sounds a bit like step 1 for newbies, but that is where we tend to loose the thread." Works for me. If the shoe fits . . . J: "So as I see it the best thing we can 'do' is to keep on with our interest in the teachings themselves, beginning always with the correct intellectual understanding of what is found in the Tipitaka and its commentaries. With this as a basis, and the realisation that whatever we might be hearing/reading about or reflecting on it relates to the dhammas of the present moment, it becomes more readily apparent whether or not what we happen to be doing at any given moment is with or without wrong view. And if there's the expectation of results, then it's highly likely that one of the underlying dhammas will indeed be wrong view." Thank you, Jon. I hope that I can actually experience some sort of realisation in relation to bhavana. Is "wanting to know" a problem? I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct teachings. Sincerely, Scott. 57522 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned meditation -- Asankhata Bhavana ?? ken_aitch Hi Matheesha, Thanks for your reply/question: ----------- KH: > > Are you saying that everything – real or illusory (paramattha or pannatti)– is conditioned? > > M: > I might make more sense if I ask you a question in reply - can you EXPERIENCE anything, real or illusory (you would need to experience even an illusion to know it exists), if it wasnt conditioned. > ----------- We will get nowhere if we are talking at cross-purposes, so let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. The question I asked amounted to, "We know citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned, but is a tree conditioned? Is a person conditioned? Is a flying purple elephant conditioned?" My answer to that would have been, "No, those ultimately illusory things are not conditioned." My question was not meant to be understood as, "Is my experience of a tree (or of a person or of a flying purple elephant) conditioned?" My answer to that question (had it been asked) would have been, "Yes, concepts are conjured-up and experienced by citta (and its cetasikas) at the mind-door according to conditions." As for your question, my answer is, "Yes, an illusory object (something that does not exist) can be experienced. However, that non- existent object would not be conditioned. (How could it be if it doesn't exist?) Only the experience of it (only the functions of citta and cetasikas) would be conditioned." Back to you! :-) Ken H 57523 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four ken_aitch Hi Larry, --------- L: > In my view you are wrong. Who cares about ultimate realities? No one. What we cling to are conventional realities. --------- I suppose that's true – up to a point. Bear in mind, however, that the cause of clinging to conventional realities is ignorance of ultimate realities. ----------------- L: > Therefore, the most profitable object of insight is a conventional reality. ------------------ Hmmm, I'm listening! :-) ----------------------------- L: > [In this discussion I'm not concerned with how insight comes about. That's another, very exhaustively discussed, issue.] ----------------------------- Yes, exhaustively discussed by people with widely differing views. It's a pity you didn't say briefly how insight comes about, because I don't know which view you are promoting. ----------------------------------------- L: > If we take the 'resolution of the compact' as a model of insight, the compact is a conventional reality and it is resolved into ultimate realities. ------------------------------------------ This brings us back to what we were saying earlier – about whether insight is, or is not, necessarily preceded by a conventional observation (e.g., "I am walking"). --------------------------------------------------- L: > However, regardless of models, it seems to me insight just happens without a lot of analysis. You could jump out of bed one day with no self view. Self view gone forever because of no attachment to anything as me or mine. Analyzing things in terms of ultimate realities is not really necessary. Whether an object is conventional or ultimate it is not you or yours. [An object that is 'mine' is essentially 'me' or 'part of me'.] So there you are, an aitch without a self. Good show!!! --------------------------------------------------- Larry, have pity on a poor, slow-witted old fellow! I don't know if you are expressing your understanding of the Theravada texts, or if you are putting forward a theory of your own. If it is the former then I would like to delve deeply into your reasoning, but if it is the latter then thanks, but I don't have time. :-) Ken H 57524 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/5/06 8:30:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Ken H: "Am I right, or am I right? :-) " > > Hi Ken, > > In my view you are wrong. Who cares about ultimate realities? No one. > What we cling to are conventional realities. Therefore, the most > profitable object of insight is a conventional reality. > > [In this discussion I'm not concerned with how insight comes about. > That's another, very exhaustively discussed, issue.] ------------------------------------------- Howard: Larry, I think you are partly correct and partly incorrect. On the surface, and as far as our thinking interprets the matter, we seem to crave, have aversion to, and cling to conventional realities for the most part. But what we crave, have aversion to, and cling to most fundamentally and directly are the pleasant and unpleasant sensations that arise resultant from contact. and the felt pleasantness and unpleasantness of those sensations. And these are actual experiential realities and not mere conventionalities. In fact, I suspect that ultimately all craving for, aversion to, and clinging to is really with respect to these paramattha dhammas, and then, after the fact, and in response to this tanha and upadana, our mind reconstructs the conventional objects underlying which were the sensations whose affective feel led to our acquisitive or dismissive reactions, and it associates those enslaving reactions with those mind-constructed "things". ----------------------------------------------- > > If we take the 'resolution of the compact' as a model of insight, the > compact is a conventional reality and it is resolved into ultimate > realities. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The resolution of a conventional object into experiential realities, not just intellectually, but by really seeing what is what, is, in my opinion, an essential step on the way towards liberation, because one craves, has aversion to, and clings to apparent entities radically less when they are seen through as ultimately illusory, as elements of a "mock show". And one then travels even further towards freedom when it is then seen that the underlying "reality" amounts to a shadow show of ungraspable, unsatisfying, impersonal, ephemeral, dependent and selfless non-entities. But that utterly amazing, magical, underlying shadow-show "reality" must be truly and directly witnessed. --------------------------------------------------- > > However, regardless of models, it seems to me insight just happens > without a lot of analysis. You could jump out of bed one day with no > self view. Self view gone forever because of no attachment to anything > as me or mine. Analyzing things in terms of ultimate realities is not > really necessary. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Seeing things as they actually are is quite necessary, I would say. It is by clear and correct seeing that we penetrate the barrier of illusion, lose our bemusement, and gain the disenchantment and distaste that lead to relinquishment, awakening, and liberation. Only the sword of wisdom cuts down and tears out enslaving defilements at the root. It must be supported of course, by several other factors such as serenity, clarity, concentration, and vigorous energy, but it is supermundane wisdom which provides our final salvation. ---------------------------------- Whether an object is conventional or ultimate it is> > not you or yours. [An object that is 'mine' is essentially 'me' or 'part > of me'.] So there you are, an aitch without a self. Good show!!! > > Larry > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57525 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 9:47pm Subject: Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta rjkjp1 Dear Han, Sayagi Thein Nyun is a student of the great Abhidhamma Bhikkhu Venerable Mula Patthana U Narada. Thein Nyun wrote introductions to U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations (about Patthana- last book of the Abhidhamma) and also to U Narada's translation of the DhatuKatha(Book of Elements, the third book of the Abhidhamma)- both printed by Pali Text Society. Thein Nyun explains in the quote below that this idea of being able to do this or that is a illusion. In fact as he further notes the elements "do not possess the characteristic functions of living beings. They arise and cease within an exceedingly short period of time. In the wink of an eye or flash of lightning the mental elements arise and cease a trillion times..." When we note or observe something already various elements have arises and fallen aways billions of times. What we are observing is the nimitta of what has already fallen away even before we knew it was there. We are seeing the shadows of the actual realties. This is not a problem, unless we believe that by focussing on sensations in the body or movement etc that we are now experiencing actual dhatus directly with insight. As I see it the development of insight is tied togther with the development of detachment, especially detachment from wrongview that thinks elements can be controlled. Insight should be showing how uncontrollable and conditioned is each moment. If, instead, our impression is that we can concentrate and make sati arise whenever we focus on (what we take to be) elements then may be an imitation of insight. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert (Tep and Jon) > > I thank you for posting a quote from the Burmese > Abhidhamma teacher U Thein Nyun in his preface to the > DhatuKathu. > > I have never read any work by U Thein Nyun, and I > cannot understand what he meant by that passage. > > I will be most grateful if you would kindly tell me > how you understand it. > > With metta and deepest respect, > Han > > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Han and Jon, > > Here is a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher > > Thein Nyun in > > his preface to the > > DhatuKathu (PTS) > 57526 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:12pm Subject: Contemplative Jeffery S Brooks --- Re: See for Your self buddhatrue Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear James (and Jeffrey Brooks) > > How are you? James: I'm fine. How are you? > > You wrote: > > "I believe that Jeffrey S. Brooks has the right to refer to himself > as a buddhist monk is he so wishes." > > > I am afraid not, James. > > He forfeited that right by decalring that "He (Jhananada) is not > anyone's disciple, devotee, representative or student." > > He did not even have the right to call himself a Buddhist if he were > not a devotee of Buddhism, let alone a Buddhist monk. James: I believe that you are taking his words out of context. I happen to belong to two of his yahoo groups: jhana and Great Western Vehicle (though I have only posted once in reference to jhana) and he does indeed believe in the teachings of the Buddha. I think the words you are quoting mean that he doesn't recognize an established "school" of Buddhism. He is an individual, a loner, and a rebel- these are all things which endear him to me. Granted, I may not agree with all of his views, but I respect his dedication. I wish people would just leave the guy alone!! > > You aslo wrote: > > "Not only that, using your logic, Mahayanist monks shouldn't be > allowed to call themselves buddhist monks either because they > believe in unverified sutras and scriptures." > > > Modern-day Mahayanists had had a very long Samgha lineage in the > form of Mahasanghikas going back to centuries very close to the time > of Buddha's Parinibbana, even though said to be started by Aacarya > Naagarjuna in 2nd century AD. The monks who later called themselves > Mahasanghikas were properly ordained by the mainstream Theravada > Samgha before they broke away from the latter and established their > own Mahasanghika sect. > > As Mahayana monks, the descendants of Mahasanghikas, humbly regard > themselves as devotees of the Buddha and follow Vinaya, they can be > regarded as Buddhist monks of a different order. > > Jeffrey's case is very different. As you would recall, he presented > himself as someone with Jhaana and Magga attainments, and, by > implication, declared himself to be superior to the Buddhist monks. > James: I believe that that is your implication. He has declared to have achieved levels of jhana and to being a sotapanna. So? And, granted, his is a bit self-absorbed and has an ego problem, but who doesn't??? Again, I think we need to examine our own faults before we go around looking for the faults of others. > With textual evidences from Pali Tipitaka, I have refuted Jeffrey's > claims and accusations of Buddhist monks during the early months of > 2004 until he backed down. His main accusation was that the Buddha > did not teach vipassanaa. James: Well, the Buddha didn't teach vipassana. The Buddha taught jhana and sati- vipassana is a modern invention. > > Jeffrey's claims and accusations were nothing more than selfish ego- > boosting excercise by the method of discrediting and denigrating > Theravada Samgha. James: Yes, he has an ego problem. Again, who doesn't?? > > Theravada Samgha is always very willing to ordain any man with a > sound mind and good principles who is sincere and ready to renounce > the lifestyle of householders and unhealthy habits. No need to self- > ordain oneself to follow the noble homeless lifestyle as a Buddhist > monk! James: From my knowledge, he did wish to ordain with an established bhikkhu sangha but when he went to them he found them to be lacking for various reasons. I happen to agree with him in this regard because I find the bhikkhu sangha to be lacking for the most part. I went all the way to Thailand to ordain and couldn't believe the types of things I saw. The buddhasangha isn't what it used to be! > > With compassion, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > www.bodhiology.org Metta, James 57527 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > Dear RobertK and James - > > You wrote: > > > Dear James, > > Sure, clinging loves all good things. Even genuine Jhana: From the > > Patthana (translation by Narada p. 405). "having emerged from the > > jhana they esteem and review chnage of lineage..they esteem, enjoy and > > delight in the aggregates which are the sates producing resultant > > states. Taking it as estimable object arises lust, arises wrong view." > > Robert > > > > But the Buddha never warned about clingings to jhana, James: Here I have to disagree. The Buddha did warn about clinging to the bliss of jhana, and that jhana alone will only result in rebirth in higher realms. sati, or vayama; James: I don't know what vayama is, but I do agree that the Buddha didn't teach about clinging to sati- as far as I know. Really, I don't see how sati could produce clinging since it is the opposite of clinging. Clinging is based on ignorance and sati is the opposite of ignorance. Go figure! ;-)) > although miccha-samadhi, miccha-sati and miccha-vayama were possible. > Why did he not? > > There is a chance that you may know some suttas that I am not aware > of. In that case, please advise. James: I agree. I get so tired of members in this group making all kinds of claims without support from the suttas. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > Metta, James 57529 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 4:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > > N: Perhaps we can learn little by little when there is not > > mindfulness but > > > some clinging, such as clinging to understanding, to mindfulness. > > > > James: I don't understand this point. How could there be clinging > > to mindfulness? I could imagine someone thinking "Oh, I must be > > great. I must be enlightened. I must practice mindfulness." And in > > that way a person could be said to cling to mindfulness, but it > > really isn't mindfulness that is being clung to. The object of the > > clinging is an idea of greatness- conceit. But how could one cling > > to real mindfulness? > >+++++++++++ > Dear James, > Sure, clinging loves all good things. Even genuine Jhana: From the > Patthana (translation by Narada p. 405). "having emerged from the > jhana they esteem and review chnage of lineage..they esteem, enjoy and > delight in the aggregates which are the sates producing resultant > states. Taking it as estimable object arises lust, arises wrong view." > Robert > James: I don't quite understand your quote, but I am aware that the Buddha taught the possibility of clinging to the bliss of jhana, also clinging to the psychic powers which can result from jhana. But I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching anything about clinging to sati. I have read a lot of suttas and I have never come across this idea. Just give me one sutta and we can consider the case closed. Metta, James 57530 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: sangiitisutta hantun1 Dear Robert, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. It is quite deep, and it will take me some time to digest it. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Han, > When we note or observe something already various > elements have > arises and fallen aways billions of times. What we > are observing is > the nimitta of what has already fallen away even > before we knew it > was there. > If, > instead, our > impression is that we can concentrate and make sati > arise whenever > we focus on (what we take to be) elements then may > be an imitation > of insight. > Robert > > 57531 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four lbidd2 Hi Howard, A couple of comments: H: "Larry, I think you are partly correct and partly incorrect. On the surface, and as far as our thinking interprets the matter, we seem to crave, have aversion to, and cling to conventional realities for the most part. But what we crave, have aversion to, and cling to most fundamentally and directly are the pleasant and unpleasant sensations that arise resultant from contact. and the felt pleasantness and unpleasantness of those sensations. And these are actual experiential realities and not mere conventionalities. In fact, I suspect that ultimately all craving for, aversion to, and clinging to is really with respect to these paramattha dhammas, and then, after the fact, and in response to this tanha and upadana, our mind reconstructs the conventional objects underlying which were the sensations whose affective feel led to our acquisitive or dismissive reactions, and it associates those enslaving reactions with those mind-constructed "things"." L: If we craved the reality of feeling then we would always crave it. Craving for the concept of feeling ceases when we see the reality of feeling. H: "Seeing things as they actually are is quite necessary, I would say. It is by clear and correct seeing that we penetrate the barrier of illusion, lose our bemusement, and gain the disenchantment and distaste that lead to relinquishment, awakening, and liberation. Only the sword of wisdom cuts down and tears out enslaving defilements at the root. It must be supported of course, by several other factors such as serenity, clarity, concentration, and vigorous energy, but it is supermundane wisdom which provides our final salvation." L: I agree, but conceptual analysis such as in MMK and abhidhamma study only has limited usefulness. My only qualification to the above would be to say wisdom is a condition but it isn't a doer. Larry 57532 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four lbidd2 Ken H: "Larry, have pity on a poor, slow-witted old fellow! I don't know if you are expressing your understanding of the Theravada texts, or if you are putting forward a theory of your own. If it is the former then I would like to delve deeply into your reasoning, but if it is the latter then thanks, but I don't have time. :-)" Hi Ken, All views are my own. Regarding my position on meditation, no one who practices insight meditation has any expectation of having an insight. Someone might begin with expectations but the process quickly squelches all hope. It's just something you do, like making breakfast. Self view continues until it ceases but even so the formalities of meditation (the posture and procedures) are conducive to wholesome consciousnesses. This is the cultivation of virtue (sila). Study and contemplation are very helpful in understanding one's experience but true insight just happens, like everything else. Larry 57533 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 11:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > James: I don't quite understand your quote, but I am aware that the > Buddha taught the possibility of clinging to the bliss of jhana, > also clinging to the psychic powers which can result from jhana. > But I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching anything about clinging > to sati. I have read a lot of suttas and I have never come across > this idea. Just give me one sutta and we can consider the case > closed. > _______________ Dear James, I give some more from the Patthana. This is the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma. It is Buddhavaca par excellance, I hope you appreciate:) p.405 (translation Mula Patthana U Narada Sayadaw of Burma, Pali Text Society) ""After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights in it. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief."" It is true, lobha clings to good things. Sati is something desirable, it comes with neutral or pleasant feeling. Robert 57534 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:54pm Subject: The Diversity of Contacts ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Diversity of Contacts gives many Urges & Searches: There is eye-sensitivity, visual forms, & visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is eye Contact... There is ear-sensitivity, audible sounds, & auditory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is ear Contact... There is nose-sensitivity, smellable odours, & olfactory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is nose Contact... There is tongue-sensitivity, tastable flavors, & gustatory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is tongue Contact... There is body-sensitivity, sensible touches, & tactile consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is body Contact... There is mental-sensitivity, mental states, & mental consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is mental Contact... Friends, it is in dependence on the diversity of these elements, that there arises the diversity of perceptions; & in dependence on the diversity of perceptions, that there arises the diversity of intentions; & in dependence on the diversity of intentions, that there arises the diversity of contacts; & in dependence on the diversity of contacts, that there arises the diversity of feelings; & in dependence on the diversity of feelings, that there arises the diversity of desires; & in dependence on the diversity of desires, that there arises the diversity of fevers; & in dependence on the diversity of fevers, that there arises the diversity of searches; & in dependence on the diversity of searches, that there arises the diversity of enthralling needs... How so? Regarding e.g. form; in dependence on intention for form, there arises contact with form; in dependence on contact with form, there arises feeling born of contact with form; in dependence on feeling born of contact with form, there arises desire for form; in dependence on desire for form, there arises fever for form; in dependence on fever for form, there arises the search for form; in dependence on the search for form, there arises the need of form... Such is the emergence of this manifold hunt, urge & wanting! Every second this bombardment of craving for sensuality creates suffering! Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57535 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:our correspondance, to James. nilovg Hi James, It is all right. Lodewijk also said that I misinterpreted your words. Of course, it is fine if people have different opinions, no problem for me. So, we can continue our correspondance, and any way, you brought up good points. Nina. op 05-04-2006 16:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: You make it > appear like my opinion is that everything you teach is contrary to > the buddhadhamma, and that isn't what I meant or said! 57536 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 1:00am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I don't know what vayama is, but I do agree that the Buddha > didn't teach about clinging to sati- as far as I know. Really, I > don't see how sati could produce clinging since it is the opposite > of clinging. Clinging is based on ignorance and sati is the > opposite of ignorance. Go figure! ;-)) Hi James As I think Tep has acknowledged, the suttanta has many references to "miccha-sati" [wrong mindfulness] which doesn't sit well with your definition of sati as "the opposite of ignorance". In the Manibhadda Sutta in the SN, the Buddha made the point that the presence of sati does not necessarily mean freedom from enmity. What are we to make of all this? At the very least, the situation is not as simple and clear as you are suggesting. Best wishes Andrew T 57537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: elements nilovg Dear Han, Elements was point one of the list of your points. Maybe Abh. in Daily Life, Ch 18. Elements could be of interest to you. When I have time I shall tell you about my discussions with Lodewijk on some of your points. But now, Larry is waiting, I have to work on the Vi. Tiika first. Nina. op 06-04-2006 07:31 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you very much for your kind explanation. > It is quite deep, and it will take me some time to > digest it. 57538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three Suttas about Atta jonoabb Hi Matheesha matheesha wrote: >M: Thanks for your kind words. Might I suggest that sati conditions >the arising of panna; and that the arising of panna cannot be forced. > >What are the implications of that? > >:) > > An interesting observation, and a useful question to consider. I agree that the arising of panna cannot be forced (and 'forced' here must include 'willed', I think). As to what the implications of that are, I think the major one must be that we should forget about trying to force or will the arising of panna ;-)) Another implication is that we need to study carefully what the Buddha said about the factors that encourage the arising of panna, because if we don't know what those conditions are, panna will never develop. And a third implication would be that panna will only ever arise at a time, and take an object, that is not of our choosing. How am I doing so far? Jon 57539 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Eric Getting back to your original question, after our little side-track on the meaning of the passage 'samadhi is a supporting condition for yathabhutañanadassana' in the Upanisa Sutta ;-)) ... ericlonline wrote: >Surely there are no silver bullets >otherwise all of us would be enlightened. >There are only factors that none of >us beyond some sort of intellectualization >can claim to know anything conclusively about. >But in reading sutta after sutta, it says to me >that without the aspirant having the ability to >enter and maintain jhana, there is no insight. >I think a more prudent discussion would be, >what is the need and use of jhana in the Buddha >Dhamma. > >So, what is jhana and how can it help? > I'm wondering why the focus on jhana if, as I think we agree, the goal is insight (and enlightenment). I think a better question would be, What is insight and how is it developed? But since you ask: (a) What is jhana? Jhana refers to kusala absorption in an object to such a degree that consciousness of a different plane arises (different to the sensuous plane of consciousness in which we all live). It is kusala kamma of a high degree. Like all kamma, it conditions vipaka: the vipaka of jhana is rebirth in the rupa-brahama or arupa-brahama plane. (b) How can it help (as regards the development of insight)? All kusala supports the development of insight, and jhana is no exception. But the development of insight has its own necessary factors (as you mention above) and, to my understanding, these do not include jhana. If insight is our aim, we need to know more about those necessary factors. Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in certain very exceptional circumstances. We find some description of this in the suttas (e.g., the anapanasati section of the kayanupassana division of the Satipatthana Sutta). But jhana can only form the basis for enlightenment if insight has already been developed to a high degree. So it is not a case of jhana somehow making insight 'easier' (at least, I'm not aware of anything in the texts to that effect). What have I missed out? Jon 57540 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:44am Subject: Suttam Quote For Ta.nhaa For Sati [dsg] Re:what is sati. abhidhammika Dear Robert K, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Han, Tep, James and all How are you? James wrote: "But I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching anything about clinging to sati. I have read a lot of suttas and I have never come across this idea. Just give me one sutta and we can consider the case closed." If James can understand sati as a dhamma, and in case he wanted to see a statement from Suttam Pitaka, here is a Suttam quote where the Buddha mentions clinging to dhamma. "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa? chayime, bhikkhave, ta.nhaakaayaa– ruupata.nhaa, saddata.nhaa, gandhata.nhaa, rasata.nhaa, pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, dhammata.nhaa. ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa." "And, Monks, what is attachment? Monks, the groups of attachments are these six: form attachment, sound attachment, smell attachment, taste attachment, touch attachment and dhamma attachment." The quote is from Section 2, Vibhanga Suttam (Deconstruction Discourse), Nidaanasamyuttam, Samyuttanikaayo. Robert, Mike and Nina, even though the quote is from Suttam Pitaka, please kindly note that the Buddha was teaching Abhiddhamma. The name of the Suttam itself is "Deconstruction", which is also the name of the Second Book of Abhidhamma Pitaka. So, Robert's quotation from Abhidhamma Pitaka is an authoritative one. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear James, I give some more from the Patthana. This is the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma. It is Buddhavaca par excellance, I hope you appreciate:) p.405 (translation Mula Patthana U Narada Sayadaw of Burma, Pali Text Society) ""After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights in it. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief."" It is true, lobha clings to good things. Sati is something desirable, it comes with neutral or pleasant feeling. Robert 57541 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Matheesha matheesha wrote: >M: Yes, thanks for clearly stating that. It is possible to be >concentrated on akusala as well. (Ananda saying that all objects of >concentration are not approved by the Buddha). > > Yes, it is certainly possible to be concentrated on akusala. But I would put it more like this: the concentration *will be* aksuala unless the consciousness happens to be kusala. And the kusala-ness of samatha is to be found other than in the fact of the concentration that is occurring. In other words, the kusala-ness of samatha does not come from concentrating on one of the approved objects of samatha. Also, as you rightly pointed out in our other thread, panna is conditioned and it cannot be forced (or willed). The same of course goes for samatha. It will arise at a time, and take an object, of its own 'choosing' (i.e., not of our choosing). >When it comes to deeper levels (pre-jhanic and jhanic if you like), >lobha, dosa is suppressed (tadanga prahana) or does not arise at all. >So at (especially) jhanic levels there is no issue whether they are >kusala or akusala. They are kusala. > > Yes, if it's samatha it will be kusala, because if the consciousness is not kusala then it isn't samatha ;-)). But the real question is, what is samatha and how is it developed? This is why I keep asking, where is the kusala in focussing on a kasina (or the breath)? If we don't know the answer to this, the development of samatha with these objects cannot begin. >>J: There would haave to have been the prior development >>of samatha to the (relatively high) degree such that panna >>knows whether the present consciousness is kusala (or >>whether it is accompanied by subtle lobha and therefore aksuala). >> >> > >M: You are correct. Since there is much kusala and panna to be gained >it is IMO better to plunge right in with samatha practice ,without >dithering on the edge and worrying about bits of akusala which one >might generate. As long as we are unenlightened it is an >unavoidable 'evil', whatever we do. > > Yes I agree that there's no point in worrying about the aksuala that is already so much a part of our life. But isn't there a problem with thinking we can plunge into something that is conditioned and cannot be forced or willed to arise? And if akusala is being generated as part of a 'practice', wouldn't that mean that wrong practice is occurring? Just some thoughts. Opinions differ, I know ;-)) Jon 57542 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:33am Subject: Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hey James, > This is very interesting information; thanks so much for sharing > it. I guess your home nurse was a part of your karma to prepare you for this path of jhana. It is good that you had such an opportunity. Indeed, and that whole experience is another story in itself!! But I also got a taste of this in Qigong. There are some forms where you gather the qi and compact it. The piti was apparent there as well. > I will keep your advice in mind. Throughout my meditation > experience, I haven't had piti arising throughout my body- but it > has been localized in various parts of my body. Now you have given > me some ideas to use to hopefully spread that piti forward and > upward. Thank you so much. Good luck with your practice! Good luck to you too James! Here is Leigh's website. He teaches throughout the world and is a quite good. http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/6774/meditate.htm > Metta, Indeed! 57543 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. .. More to learn .. indriyabala Hi, James & Andrew (and all others)- First of all, James, jhana as taught by the Buddha is not an object of clinging. One may cling to miccha-sati, but not to samma-sati -- that is what I believe. Why? Because right mindfulness is on the Path to Nibbana : "There's no jhana for one with no discernment; no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." [Dhp 372]. > Andrew: What are we to make of all this? At the very least, > the situation is not as simple and clear as you are suggesting. > Tep: Yes. There is more to learn. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > I don't know what vayama is, but I do agree that the Buddha > > didn't teach about clinging to sati- as far as I know. Really, I > > don't see how sati could produce clinging since it is the opposite > > of clinging. Clinging is based on ignorance and sati is the > > opposite of ignorance. Go figure! ;-)) > > Hi James > > As I think Tep has acknowledged, the suttanta has many references > to "miccha-sati" [wrong mindfulness] which doesn't sit well with your definition of sati as "the opposite of ignorance". In the Manibhadda Sutta in the SN, the Buddha made the point that the presence of sati does not necessarily mean freedom from enmity. > (snipped) 57544 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote: Hello Mike, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" > wrote: > > > Are you a moderator of this group? > No--a rhetorical question, I assume. You assume a lot. I have not been in this forum in awhile and I really dont know who the moderators are currently. > > Jon and I are old friends. You dont > > have to get bent out of shape by what > > we say to each other. > > I wasn't at all "bent out of shape"-- OK > > The 'challenge' I gave was in regard > > to a specific thing meant for Jon. > > I beg your pardon. I took "ourselves" to refer to the members of > this public forum. I do apologize sincerely for interjecting. You dont have to apologize but more thoughtful commentary would be apropos instead of just assuming I was attacking Jon (I was not) and you by association. "Ourselves" meant Jon and myself as the message was sent to him from me. But you are more than welcome to chime in. > > But you seemed to take it personally. > > Why? > Though (obviously) not a moderator, I think each of us has the right if not the responsibility to try to encourage civility on the list. > Since I took your message to refer to any who disagree with you I > felt my response was appropriate. Sorry that you took it personally. Again, no need to apologize. But you have not stated what or why you disagree with my succint and direct point. Why did you feel I was attacking? What did you identify with and need to pipe up and defend? 57545 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi, Eric {and Jon }- Hey T > I am delighted by the clear explanation you have given to Jon. Three cheers for you ! You must know Jon. He is very erudite and it is indeed worthy of a cheer to make a point with him! :-) Thanks 57546 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:55am Subject: Suttam Quote For Ta.nhaa For Sati [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear Robert K, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Han, Tep, James and all > > How are you? > Tep: I was fine. Thank you. ......... > Suan: > If James can understand sati as a dhamma, and in case he wanted to > see a statement from Suttam Pitaka, here is a Suttam quote where the > Buddha mentions clinging to dhamma. > > "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa? chayime, bhikkhave, > ta.nhaakaayaa– ruupata.nhaa, saddata.nhaa, gandhata.nhaa, > rasata.nhaa, pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, dhammata.nhaa. ayam vuccati, > bhikkhave, ta.nhaa." > > "And, Monks, what is attachment? Monks, the groups of attachments > are these six: form attachment, sound attachment, smell attachment, > taste attachment, touch attachment and dhamma attachment." > Tep: I wonder if attachment is possible when there is "discernment" (panna)? Sincerely, Tep ======= 57547 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/6/06 1:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > A couple of comments: > > H: "Larry, I think you are partly correct and partly incorrect. On the > surface, and as far as our thinking interprets the matter, we seem to > crave, have aversion to, and cling to conventional realities for the > most part. But what we crave, have aversion to, and cling to most > fundamentally and directly are the pleasant and unpleasant sensations > that arise resultant from contact. and the felt pleasantness and > unpleasantness of those sensations. And these are actual experiential > realities and not mere conventionalities. In fact, I suspect that > ultimately all craving for, aversion to, and clinging to is really with > respect to these paramattha dhammas, and then, after the fact, and in > response to this tanha and upadana, our mind reconstructs the > conventional objects underlying which were the sensations whose > affective feel led to our acquisitive or dismissive reactions, and it > associates those enslaving reactions with those mind-constructed > "things"." > > L: If we craved the reality of feeling then we would always crave it. > Craving for the concept of feeling ceases when we see the reality of > feeling. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I follow you.Craving is always memory based or imagination based, for we cannot crave what we have at the moment we are experiencing it. But what is craved is the good feeling. ------------------------------------------ > > H: "Seeing things as they actually are is quite necessary, I would say. > It is by clear and correct seeing that we penetrate the barrier of > illusion, lose our bemusement, and gain the disenchantment and distaste > that lead to relinquishment, awakening, and liberation. Only the sword > of wisdom cuts down and tears out enslaving defilements at the root. It > must be supported of course, by several other factors such as serenity, > clarity, concentration, and vigorous energy, but it is supermundane > wisdom which provides our final salvation." > > L: I agree, but conceptual analysis such as in MMK and abhidhamma study > only has limited usefulness. My only qualification to the above would be > to say wisdom is a condition but it isn't a doer. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And I agree with you on both of these points! :-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:clinging to sati, sutta. nilovg Hi James and all, James, I agree that desire can sometimes be wholesome, sometimes unwholesome. Here the Pali can be helpful, it is the word chanda, desire-to-do that is used. From the context we have to see what kind of chanda is meant when we read the translation: desire. Sati itself does not produce clinging, of course not. It arises with wholesome citta. But human nature, you know, clinging is so stubborn that it always finds an object. Even to what is most excellent, such as the liberation from samsara. Perhaps you have noticed that when one does not get the desired thing, there is aversion, annoyance, sadness. This is a sure sign that there is still clinging. Now a sutta: Middle Length Sayings, 137, the Exposition on the sixfold base, B.B. transl p. 1068: about six kinds of grief based on renunciation: 'When by knowing impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms, one sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms both formerly and now are all impermanent...one generates a longing for the supreme liberations thus: 'When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in? In one who generates thus a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. Such grief as this is called grief based on renunciation.> Also in the satipatthaanasutta under seeing dhammas in dhammas, the factor of enlightenment sati is mentioned: it is an object under the application of mindfulness of dhammas, in order to see it as dhamma, dhamma in dhamma, no self in dhamma. Why is that? Because it can be object of clinging or wrong view, the view of 'my sati', 'I' am aware. Nina. 57549 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Eric Hi Jon, > Getting back to your original question, after our little side- track on > the meaning of the passage 'samadhi is a supporting condition for > yathabhutañanadassana' in the Upanisa Sutta ;-)) ... :-) > ericlonline wrote: > >So, what is jhana and how can it help? > I'm wondering why the focus on jhana if, as I think we agree, the goal is insight (and enlightenment). Why focus on any one path factor or groups i.e. sila, samadhi, panna? Intellectually or actually? That is how we traverse the path, yes? It is a graduated path and nothing can be left out. > I think a better question would be, > What is insight and how is it developed? That is a good question too. But we are trying to cull the defects from our views and experience of jhana and see if there are any gems. Lets complete this dig first. > But since you ask: > (a) What is jhana? > Jhana refers to kusala absorption in an object to such a degree that consciousness of a different plane arises (different to the sensuous plane of consciousness in which we all live). Rupa jhanas are on this plane. Arupas are non-material but you are not transported anywhere as far as I can tell. The grosser objects are dropped in awareness till there are no more forms in awareness or they are at least 'quiet' and in the background. > It is kusala kamma of a high degree. Agreed > Like all kamma, it conditions vipaka: the vipaka of jhana > is rebirth in the rupa-brahama or arupa-brahama plane. So they say. Let us know thru a medium and I promise to try and do the same if I die first. > (b) How can it help (as regards the development of insight)? > All kusala supports the development of insight, and jhana is no > exception. But the development of insight has its own necessary factors (as you mention above) and, to my understanding, these do not include jhana. Really?! You walking a 7 fold path? 8 factors too much for you? :-) >If insight is our aim, we need to know more about those > necessary factors. We need to 1) know, 2)experience all the factors and 3)know that we have experienced. I am all ears. > Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in certain very exceptional circumstances. We find some description of this in the suttas (e.g., the anapanasati section of the kayanupassana division of the Satipatthana Sutta). Surely it is in many many suttas, yes? Besides, Right Concentration is jhana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- samadhi/index.html >But jhana can only form the basis for > enlightenment if insight has already been developed to a high degree. Wow, that sounds like a lion's roar Jon! Do you or anyone you know directly have experience in this? Do any of your teachers or teachers teachers? :-) > So it is not a case of jhana somehow making insight 'easier' (at least, I'm not aware of anything in the texts to that effect). You talking about my Manjushri comment in our sidetrack? By easier, I mean it helps get the dust out of our eyes so we can see more clearly i.e. the hindrances are severely diminished with jhana. That is why vipassana like in the Upanisa Sutta will not arise. If there are hindrances, there is no "knowledge and vision". You are thinking "knowledge" is the key. It is a key but alone it is without a lock. You need "vision" also. And if you cannot see clearly (jhana) there is no vipassana like the Upanissa points out as clear as the light of day. > What have I missed out? We all have blindspots Jon. 57550 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 2:57pm Subject: Suttam Quote For Ta.nhaa For Sati [dsg] Re:what is sati. kelvin_lwin Hi Tep and James, > Tep: I wonder if attachment is possible when there is "discernment" > (panna)? I think quick answer is yes (nana). I've copied from Dr Mehn Tin Mon's Book and I know it's not a sutta source but this is what I've been taught. Upakkilesa (Ten Impurities of Vipassanà) k 1 Obhàsa – rays emitting from the body on account of insight, 2 Pãti – five kinds of rapture (unprecedented joy), 3 Passaddhi – both kàya- and citta-passadhi – tranquility or quietude. 4 Adhimokkha – the controlling faculty of strong faith, 5 Paggaha – intense effort which supports vipassanà-citta 6 Sukha – pleasant feeling in the whole body due to wholesome cittaja-råpa, 7 ¥àõa – quick insight wisdom, 8 Upaññhàna – mindfulness fixed on kammaññhàna, 9 Upekkhà – tatramajjatupekkhà and avajjanupekkhà, (the former represents tatramajjattatà cetasika which can observe phenomena effortlessly; the latter refers to the cetana associated with avajjana-citta that can reflect on phenomena quickly) 10 Nikanti – mild attachment to vipassanà-¤àõa which is accompanied by pãti, passaddhi, sukha and obhàsa. Of the ten impurities mentioned above, only nikanti (attachment) belongs to kilesas (defilements). The remaining ones are wholesome qualities. Yet when one is presented with these qualities, especially the body-rays, unprecedented joy, quietude and happiness on account of pleasant feeling, strong religious fervour due to intense faith, the insight wisdom and the ability to observe the arising and passing away of conditioned things quickly and effortlessly, one may develop grasping diññhi (the wrong view that they occur in me), vicious màna (the pride that I alone possess these marvellous qualities) and grasping taõhà (strong attachment that the qualities are mine). These diññhi, màna and taõhà really defile one's meditation because they are real defilements (kilesas). Some yogis with poor knowledge of Dhamma even think that they attain Magga and Phala when they have the unusual aura, joy, tranquility and happiness. All these people who have such a wrong view (diññhi) or a vicious pride (màna) or a grasping attachment (taõhà) are on the wrong Path; their meditation will be at a standstill and may even decline. Those people, who have sufficient knowledge of Dhamma, know very well that these unusual phenomena of aura, joy, happiness; etc., are just upakkilesas and that they do not represent a Magga or Phala yet. To be on the right Path, one must meditate on the arising and passing away of the conditioned things. This knowledge which can differentiate between the wrong Path and the right Path is called Maggàmagga-¤àõadassana Visuddhi. The yogi who possesses this knowledge is said to attain the Purity of Vision discerning the Path and not-Path. 57551 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 4:12pm Subject: Suttam Quote For Ta.nhaa For Sati [dsg] Re:what is sati. ... Discernment indriyabala Hi Kel (James, Eric , Jon, Suan, Han ...)- So your quick answer to my question <"I wonder if attachment is possible when there is "discernment"(panna)?> is yes (nana). The quote from Dr Mehn Tin Mon's Abhidhamma book shows the ten impurities of vipassanaa(upakkilesa). I find the 10th one, nikanti, quite interesting because it is the only defilement(kilesa) in the group that has something to do with attachment: "Nikanti – mild attachment to vipassanaa-~na~naa which is accompanied by piiti, passaddhi, sukha and obhaasa." It is quite interesting because it is the "mild attachment" to two of the seven enlightenment factors, i.e. piiti and passaddhi; but it is not an attachment to the other enlightenment factors, i.e. sati, dhamma-vicaya, viriya, samadhi, and ubekkha. Why is it so? At the end of your quote, I find the last paragraph even more interesting than 'nikanti' because it provides a direct answer to my question. "To be on the right Path, one must meditate on the arising and passing away of the conditioned things. This knowledge which can differentiate between the wrong Path and the right Path is called Maggaamagga-~na~naadassana Visuddhi. The yogi who possesses this knowledge is said to attain the Purity of Vision discerning the Path and not-Path." The satisfying answer to me is : only when the meditator discerns the Path and not-Path, he/she can then attain the Purity of Vision that would remove the attachment due to nikanti. But, is there anything else, besides nikanti, that still can cause attachment (to the five aggregates, for example)? Thank you for this food for thought. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep and James, > > > Tep: I wonder if attachment is possible when there is > >"discernment" (panna)? > > > I think quick answer is yes (nana). I've copied from Dr Mehn Tin > Mon's Book and I know it's not a sutta source but this is what I've > been taught. > > Upakkilesa (Ten Impurities of Vipassanà) > k 1 Obhàsa – rays emitting from the body on account of > insight, > 2 Pãti – five kinds of rapture (unprecedented joy), > 3 Passaddhi – both kàya- and citta-passadhi – tranquility or > quietude. > 4 Adhimokkha – the controlling faculty of strong faith, > 5 Paggaha – intense effort which supports vipassanà-citta > 6 Sukha – pleasant feeling in the whole body due to > wholesome cittaja-råpa, > 7 ¥àõa – quick insight wisdom, > 8 Upaññhàna – mindfulness fixed on kammaññhàna, > 9 Upekkhà – tatramajjatupekkhà and avajjanupekkhà, (the > former represents tatramajjattatà cetasika which can > observe phenomena effortlessly; the latter refers to the > cetana associated with avajjana-citta that can reflect on > phenomena quickly) > 10 Nikanti – mild attachment to vipassanà-¤àõa which is > accompanied by pãti, passaddhi, sukha and obhàsa. > > Of the ten impurities mentioned above, only nikanti > (attachment) belongs to kilesas (defilements). The remaining ones > are wholesome qualities. (snipped) > This knowledge which can differentiate between the wrong > Path and the right Path is called Maggàmagga-¤àõadassana > Visuddhi. The yogi who possesses this knowledge is said to attain > the Purity of Vision discerning the Path and not-Path. > 57552 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 4:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) indriyabala Hi E and J - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > > Hey T > > > I am delighted by the clear explanation you have given to Jon. > Three cheers for you ! > > You must know Jon. He is very > erudite and it is indeed worthy > of a cheer to make a point with > him! :-) > > Thanks > T: You're right, E. J is one of the most difficult-to-convince people I have ever known (this is a compliment to Jon). So I must say you have done a great job so far. {:>)) ((<:} Best wishes, Tep, your friend. ========== 57553 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 4:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > _______________ > Dear James, > I give some more from the Patthana. This is the last and most > important book of the Abhidhamma. It is Buddhavaca par excellance, I > hope you appreciate:) > p.405 (translation Mula Patthana U Narada Sayadaw of Burma, Pali > Text Society) > ""After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, > having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights > in it. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises > doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief."" > > It is true, lobha clings to good things. Sati is something > desirable, it comes with neutral or pleasant feeling. > Robert > Thanks for the quote. However, it isn't from the suttas and it doesn't appear to be about sati (but actually, I can't quite figure out what it is referring to. Is there some more information you didn't quote?) Metta, James 57554 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 4:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re:our correspondance, to James. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > It is all right. Lodewijk also said that I misinterpreted your words. Of > course, it is fine if people have different opinions, no problem for me. > So, we can continue our correspondance, and any way, you brought up good > points. > Nina. Good; I'm glad that we are cool again. I was quite upset by your post, but I am better now. I should also apologize to you (and to everyone) for the snarky tone of my posts lately. I have been going through a lot of stress at home because Amr convinced me to take in a dalmation puppy. However, I found out too late that the dalmation "puppy" is really seven months old, fully grown, and not house broken It is very stressful to have a full grown dog bounding around my apartment, chewing up things, having accidents here and there, and scaring my cat Simon half to death! ;-)) Thankfully, he is going to be going to a new home the day after tomorrow, so I won't be so stressed and over-bearing in my posts (I hope). Metta, James 57555 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi James > > As I think Tep has acknowledged, the suttanta has many references > to "miccha-sati" [wrong mindfulness] which doesn't sit well with your > definition of sati as "the opposite of ignorance". James: I intended right mindfulness, of the Noble Eightfold Path, in regards to my statement. I am not familiar with miccha-sati. Is it sati practiced in the wrong way or of the wrong sorts of objects? In the Manibhadda > Sutta in the SN, the Buddha made the point that the presence of sati > does not necessarily mean freedom from enmity. James: I looked in my copy of SN and I couldn't find this sutta. Are you sure it is in SN? What is the number. I'm not sure if it relates to this discussion, but I would like to read it. > > What are we to make of all this? At the very least, the situation is > not as simple and clear as you are suggesting. James: I don't really think that anything is simple and clear. I just present things that way for the sake of discussion. It wouldn't be possible to discuss every nuance and possibility of every dhamma subject. I try to keep things simple so that the discussion remains focused. > > Best wishes > Andrew T > Metta, James 57556 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Andrew T, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" In the Manibhadda > Sutta in the SN, the Buddha made the point that the presence of sati > does not necessarily mean freedom from enmity. > > What are we to make of all this? At the very least, the situation is > not as simple and clear as you are suggesting. > > Best wishes > Andrew T > I found the sutta. Here is what the Buddha said: It is always good for the mindful one, The mindful one thrives in happiness. It is better each day for the mindful one, But he is not freed from enmity. One whose mind all day and night Takes delight in harmlessness, Who has lovingkindness for all beings-- For him there is enmity with none. Andrew, the sutta doesn't say anything about wrong mindfulness. Actually, it states that it is always good for the mindful one, the mindful one thrives in happiness, and it is better each day for the mindful one. Where is the wrong mindfulness? Where is the warning about clinging to mindfulness? Metta, James 57557 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:30pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhatrue Hi Jon and Eric, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Eric > > Getting back to your original question, after our little side- track on > the meaning of the passage 'samadhi is a supporting condition for > yathabhutañanadassana' in the Upanisa Sutta ;-)) ... > > ericlonline wrote: > > >Surely there are no silver bullets > >otherwise all of us would be enlightened. > >There are only factors that none of > >us beyond some sort of intellectualization > >can claim to know anything conclusively about. > >But in reading sutta after sutta, it says to me > >that without the aspirant having the ability to > >enter and maintain jhana, there is no insight. > >I think a more prudent discussion would be, > >what is the need and use of jhana in the Buddha > >Dhamma. > > > >So, what is jhana and how can it help? > > > > I'm wondering why the focus on jhana if, as I think we agree, the goal > is insight (and enlightenment). I think a better question would be, > What is insight and how is it developed? > > But since you ask: > (a) What is jhana? > Jhana refers to kusala absorption in an object to such a degree that > consciousness of a different plane arises (different to the sensuous > plane of consciousness in which we all live). It is kusala kamma of a > high degree. Like all kamma, it conditions vipaka: the vipaka of jhana > is rebirth in the rupa-brahama or arupa-brahama plane. > > (b) How can it help (as regards the development of insight)? > All kusala supports the development of insight, and jhana is no > exception. But the development of insight has its own necessary factors > (as you mention above) and, to my understanding, these do not include > jhana. If insight is our aim, we need to know more about those > necessary factors. > > Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in certain > very exceptional circumstances. We find some description of this in the > suttas (e.g., the anapanasati section of the kayanupassana division of > the Satipatthana Sutta). But jhana can only form the basis for > enlightenment if insight has already been developed to a high degree. > So it is not a case of jhana somehow making insight 'easier' (at least, > I'm not aware of anything in the texts to that effect). How about this sutta I just found while looking in the SN: Jhanasamyutta IX.1 Bhikkhs, just as the river Ganges slants, slopes, and inclines toward the east, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines towards nibbana. Jon, I think that this is saying that jhana makes insight easier- with the words slants and slopes. Metta, James > > What have I missed out? > > Jon > 57558 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 5:50pm Subject: Suttam Quote For Ta.nhaa For Sati [dsg] Re:what is sati. buddhatrue Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Robert K, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Han, Tep, James and all > > How are you? > > James wrote: > > "But I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching anything about clinging > to sati. I have read a lot of suttas and I have never come across > this idea. Just give me one sutta and we can consider the case > closed." > > > If James can understand sati as a dhamma, and in case he wanted to > see a statement from Suttam Pitaka, here is a Suttam quote where the > Buddha mentions clinging to dhamma. > > "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa? chayime, bhikkhave, > ta.nhaakaayaa– ruupata.nhaa, saddata.nhaa, gandhata.nhaa, > rasata.nhaa, pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, dhammata.nhaa. ayam vuccati, > bhikkhave, ta.nhaa." > > "And, Monks, what is attachment? Monks, the groups of attachments > are these six: form attachment, sound attachment, smell attachment, > taste attachment, touch attachment and dhamma attachment." > > The quote is from Section 2, Vibhanga Suttam (Deconstruction > Discourse), Nidaanasamyuttam, Samyuttanikaayo. James: I don't know what version you are using, but my copy of SN has a different tanslation: And what, bhikkhus is craving? There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odours, craving for tastes, craving for tactile objects, craving for mental phenomena. This is called craving. > > Robert, Mike and Nina, even though the quote is from Suttam Pitaka, > please kindly note that the Buddha was teaching Abhiddhamma. The > name of the Suttam itself is "Deconstruction", which is also the > name of the Second Book of Abhidhamma Pitaka. James: I also don't know where you are getting this translation of the sutta title. The sutta's title means "Causation" and it is about Dependent Origination, not the Abhidhamma. > > So, Robert's quotation from Abhidhamma Pitaka is an authoritative > one. James: I don't see how you can come to that conclusion, especially since the quote didn't address sati. > > With regards, > > Suan Metta, James 57559 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re:clinging to sati, sutta. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and all, > > James, I agree that desire can sometimes be wholesome, sometimes > unwholesome. Here the Pali can be helpful, it is the word chanda, > desire-to-do that is used. From the context we have to see what kind of > chanda is meant when we read the translation: desire. > Sati itself does not produce clinging, of course not. It arises with > wholesome citta. James: Well, that solves the issue- you agree with me that sati isn't the object of clinging. But human nature, you know, clinging is so stubborn that it > always finds an object. Even to what is most excellent, such as the > liberation from samsara. James: This is clinging to an idea. Just because people may cling to the idea of practicing sati, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't practice it. They should just be more mindful of clinging. > Perhaps you have noticed that when one does not get the desired thing, there > is aversion, annoyance, sadness. This is a sure sign that there is still > clinging. James: Yes, I would agree. > Now a sutta: Middle Length Sayings, 137, the Exposition on the sixfold base, > B.B. transl p. 1068: about six kinds of grief based on renunciation: 'When > by knowing impermanence, change, fading away, and cessation of forms, one > sees as it actually is with proper wisdom that forms both formerly and now > are all impermanent...one generates a longing for the supreme liberations > thus: 'When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones > now enter upon and abide in? In one who generates thus a longing for the > supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. Such grief > as this is called grief based on renunciation.> James: Yes, I have experienced this grief. It is also called wholesome depression in some texts. There's nothing wrong with it. > > Also in the satipatthaanasutta under seeing dhammas in dhammas, the factor > of enlightenment sati is mentioned: it is an object under the application of > mindfulness of dhammas, in order to see it as dhamma, dhamma in dhamma, no > self in dhamma. Why is that? Because it can be object of clinging or wrong > view, the view of 'my sati', 'I' am aware. James: You've lost me here. > Nina. > Metta, James 57560 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. corvus121 Hi James I'm glad you found the sutta. Sometimes the reference numbers confound me as much as help me. Anyway, you wrote: Here is what the Buddha said: > > It is always good for the mindful one, > The mindful one thrives in happiness. > It is better each day for the mindful one, > But he is not freed from enmity. > > One whose mind all day and night > Takes delight in harmlessness, > Who has lovingkindness for all beings-- > For him there is enmity with none. > > Andrew, the sutta doesn't say anything about wrong mindfulness. > Actually, it states that it is always good for the mindful one, the > mindful one thrives in happiness, and it is better each day for the > mindful one. Where is the wrong mindfulness? Where is the warning > about clinging to mindfulness? Andrew: The sutta begins with the yakkha Manibhadda reciting a verse to the Buddha. The Buddha repeats the verse but corrects the final line: Manibhadda - And he is freed from enmity The Buddha - But he is not freed from enmity This has been interpreted as meaning that sati/mindfulness by itself is not sufficient to eradicate ill will. As an aside, I think the Abhidhammic position is that sati is always present in sense-sphere wholesome consciousness, but such consciousness is not always associated with wisdom. I didn't raise the sutta as one talking about clinging to sati, but rather to question the idea you raised that sati is the opposite of ignorance. I tend to think of wisdom as the opposite of ignorance. At this point, I start to get more into Abhidhammic explanations etc. which are outside your area of interest, so I'll stop here and hope that I've clarified the angle I was coming from. Best wishes Andrew T 57561 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 6:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear All, In the Pathway of Purity: "Here the method of developing that concentration which is spoken of as being associated with the Noble Path . . . is comprised in that of the developing of wisdom. For concentration is developed when wisdom is developed. Therefore we say nothing separately as to how it should be developed," (p. 105, Pe Maung Tin, trans.). I'm not sure what the original Pali might be. I take concentration to be "samadhi," wisdom to be understanding hence "pa.n.na," but stand to be corrected. Concentration is defined earlier as: "collectedness of moral thought;" whose sense is "placing well" or "setting of mind and mental properties fittingly well in a single object;" whose characteristic is "not wavering;" and whose kinds seem to include the Jhaanas, (ibid, p. 98). Understanding is "insight-knowledge associated with moral thought;" it is in the sense of "knowing in various ways . . . as distinct from perceiving and cognizing," its characteristic is "of penetrating into the true nature of states;" and, interestingly, "[b]ecause of the statement: 'He who is concentrated knows, sees a thing as it really is,' concentration is its proximate cause," (ibid, pp. 505-507). I would ask that you comment on the above, if you please. I see a rather seamless integration between the "functions" of concentration and understanding. I'm not quite sure what this might mean in relation to the differences between samatha and vipassana. It seems to suggest a rather tight interaction. I'll wait until some of you can comment, since I'm not really on solid ground here. I would appreciate admittance into the discussion, if possible. Sincerely, Scott. 57562 From: connie Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 8:08pm Subject: Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four nichiconn Howard: Yes, I follow you.Craving is always memory based or imagination based, for we cannot crave what we have at the moment we are experiencing it. But what is craved is the good feeling. ------------------------------------------ Connie: dunno 'bout that. the insatiable black hole might accompany memory or imagination (mis-applied and sustained thinking?) and i think there can be craving for more of what has just arisen or passed away, for it to last, etc. but lampblack is not particular about what it sticks to. generally speaking, bhava follows... more vipaka after the attention of a dubious character. but no, WE cannot have or crave anything. just thinking, with nandi and raaga, ;) 57563 From: connie Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 9:36pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scott nichiconn Hi, Scott: Bhuddaghosa & Nanamoli (path of purification) from the same section... peace, connie 41. Katha.m bhaavetabboti ettha pana yo taava aya.m lokiyalokuttaravasena duvidhoti-aadiisu ariyamaggasampayutto samaadhi vutto, tassa bhaavanaanayo pa~n~naabhaavanaanayeneva sa"ngahito. Pa~n~naaya hi bhaavitaaya so bhaavito hoti. Tasmaa ta.m sandhaaya eva.m bhaavetabboti na ki~nci visu.m vadaama. bhaavetabba - [PW] (pt p of bhaaveti) should be cultivated taava - [P-T-E-S] (adv.) at once, now, just, really, indeed, yet, still; so great, so large, so long, so far, so many. Skt. taavat. sa"ngahita - [PW] (pp of sa"nganhaati) treated kindly; compiled; collected sandhaaya - [PW] (abs. of sandahati) having united. (ind) with reference to; concerning visu.m - [PW] (adv) separately; individually; apart 27. (viii) HOW SHOULD IT BE DEVELOPED? [A. Development in Brief] The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned ( section 7 ) under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' etc., is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch.XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed. Yo panaaya.m lokiyo, so vuttanayena siilaani visodhetvaa suparisuddhe siile pati.t.thitena yvaassa dasasu palibodhesu palibodho atthi, ta.m upacchinditvaa kamma.t.thaanadaayaka.m kalyaa.namitta.m upasa"nkamitvaa attano cariyaanukuula.m cattaaliisaaya kamma.t.thaanesu a~n~natara.m kamma.t.thaana.m gahetvaa samaadhibhaavanaaya ananuruupa.m vihaara.m pahaaya anuruupe vihaare viharantena khuddakapalibodhupaccheda.m katvaa sabba.m bhaavanaavidhaana.m aparihaapentena bhaavetabboti ayamettha sa"nkhepo. upacchindati - [PW] (upa+chid+.m-a) breaks off; interrupts; destroys kamma.t.thaana [the object of satipaa.t.thaana/or meditation] daayaka - [PW] (m) giver; supporter kalyaa.namitta - [PW] (m) a good companion; honest friend upasa"nkamitvaa - [PW] (abs of upsa"nkamati) having approached; drawing near cariya, carita - [N] temperament, behaviour, exercise anukuula - [PW] (adj) favourable; agreeable forty - [PW] (f) cattaa.liisati gahetvaa - [PW] (abs of ga.nhaati) having taken; having held of; having seized anuruupa - [PW] (adj) suitable; conform with pahaaya - [PW] abs. of pajahati: having left or given up; having renounced; having forsaken; having abandoned khudda - [PW] (adj) small; inferior; insignificant vidhaana - [PW] (nt) arrangement; command; performance; process. [N] directions haapenta - [PW] (pr p of haapeti) omitting; neglecting sa"nkhepo - [P-T-E-S] abridgement, abstract, abbreviation, contraction. Skt. samksepa 28. But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then appproach the Good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable. Then he should sever the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development. This is in brief. Aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m "yvaassa dasasu palibodhesu palibodho atthi, ta.m upacchinditvaa"ti, ettha- Aavaaso ca kula.m laabho, ga.no kamma~nca pa~ncama.m; addhaana.m ~naati aabaadho, gantho iddhiiti te dasaati.- Ime dasa palibodhaa naama. Tattha aavaasoyeva aavaasapalibodho. Esa nayo kulaadiisu. vitthaara - [PW] explanation; detail; the breadth aavasi - [PW] (aor. of aavasati) lived; resided; inhabited kula - [PW] (nt) a family; clan; caste laabha - [N] gain ga.na - [PW] (m) a gang; crowd; sect; a chapter of monks addhaana - [PW] (nt) a long path, time, or journey; highroad ~nati - relatives aabaadha - [PW] (m) disease; affliction gantha - [N] (1) tie (the 4), (2) book iddhi - [N] power, success, supernormal power [B. Development in Detail] 29. The detail is this: 57564 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 11:29pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 417- Confidence/saddhaa (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa contd) The ariyan is often described as a person who has heard much. He has listened to Dhamma and has applied what he has heard. If he had been a passive listener he could not have attained enlightenment. We may wish to reach the goal without cultivating the right cause which leads to the goal. If there is no beginning of the development of understanding at this moment how can we expect the arising of profound wisdom? Realities such as hardness, feeling or sound appear time and again. If one begins to be mindful of the reality which appears now, one cultivates the right conditions for the growth of right understanding. There should be confidence which is as courageous and determined as the hero who crosses the flood. Many moments of such courageous determination are needed in order to realize what one has not yet realized. ***** (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 57565 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2006 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:our correspondance, to James. sarahprocter... Hi Jmaes, This was a very nice note - very sincere and honest. Also your one to Joop. I was impressed - it takes courage to see and admit to bein 'snarky' and so on!! I can just imagine the havoc caused by the new (and fortunately temporary) member of your household. And poor little Simon:-). I'm sure I'd be more than snarky if a lively, untrained dalmatian moved into our small apartment... Hope peace resumes soon. Enjoying your interesting threads of late:). Metta, Sarah ========== --- buddhatrue wrote: > Good; I'm glad that we are cool again. I was quite upset by your > post, but I am better now. I should also apologize to you (and to > everyone) for the snarky tone of my posts lately. I have been going > through a lot of stress at home because Amr convinced me to take in > a dalmation puppy. However, I found out too late that the > dalmation "puppy" is really seven months old, fully grown, and not > house broken It is very stressful to have a full grown dog bounding > around my apartment, chewing up things, having accidents here and > there, and scaring my cat Simon half to death! ;-)) Thankfully, he > is going to be going to a new home the day after tomorrow, so I > won't be so stressed and over-bearing in my posts (I hope). 57566 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:what is sati. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, James & all, --- indriyabala wrote: T:> But the Buddha never warned about clingings to jhana, sati, or vayama; > although miccha-samadhi, miccha-sati and miccha-vayama were possible. > Why did he not? .... S: After you show some generosity to someone or have metta, is there never any attachment to that kindness afterwards? Do you never think ‘ah, that was a good deed I did’ with some satisfaction or clinging to being a kind person at such a time? It seems to me that the idea of self and clinging to self are so deeply rooted that when wholesome states such as sati don’t arise very often, there is bound to be attachment and other kilesa (defilements) following them instantly when they do arise. That’s why right understanding has to develop and know all these different states for what they are, anatta and uncontrollable. As you indicate the Buddha taught about the wrong eightfold path as well as the right eightfold path. For example, AN 10s, 104, ‘The seed’, (PTS transl): *** “ ‘Monks, for a man, a person, who has wrong view, wrong thinking, speech, action, living, effort mindfulness, concentration, wrong knowledge and release, whatsoever bodily action is carried to completion and fulfillment according to that view, whatsoever action of speech, of mind, whatsoever intention, aspiration, resolve, whatsoever activities of mind there may be – all those states conduce to what is unpleasant, not delightful, not charming, not profitable, to what is painful. What is the cause of that? Monks, the view is bad. ‘Suppose, monks, a nimb-seed or a seed of a creeper or bitter gourd be planted in moist soil. Whatever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces to its bitterness, its acridity, its unpleasant taste. What is the cause of that? The bad nature of the seed, monks.” ***** S: Back to your comment that the Buddha never taught about clinging to jhana, sati or vayama (in a sutta), you add: T:> There is a chance that you may know some suttas that I am not aware > of. In that case, please advise. ... S:With your knowledge of suttas, this is unlikely, but here are a few more passages for consideration from MN (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): On attachment to all skilful states inc. jhanas, consider 1. Sappurisa Sutta, 113 “Moreover, an untrue man who is learned...who is expert in the Discipline...who is a preacher of the Dhamma...who is a forest dweller...who is a refuse-rag earer...an almsfood eater...a tree-root dweller.... a charnel-ground dweller..an open-air dweller.... a continual sitter....an any-bed user....a one-session eater considers thus: ‘I am a one-session eater; but these other bhikkhus are not one-session eaters.’ So he lauds himself and disparages others....... ‘Moreover, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, an untrue man enters upon and abides in the first jhana [later 2nd jhana and so on up to ‘enters and abides in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception’].....He considers thus: ‘I have gained the attainment of the first jhana [and later for all the other attainments repeated]; but these other bhikkhus have not gained the attainment of the first jhana.’ So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his attainment of the first jhana......” ***** On the deeply rooted attachment to self and clinging to [wholesome] cittas (consciousness) when they’ve fallen away and the agitation which follows, consider 2.Uddesavibhanga Sutta, MN138: “He regards feeling as self....perception...formations...consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That consciousness of his changes and becomes otherwise. With the change and becoming otherwise of that consciousness, his consciousness is preoccupied with the change of consciousness. Agitated states of mind born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is obsessed, he is anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to clinging he becomes agitated. That is how there is agitation due to clinging.” ***** Finally, on changing states, bad meditation and clinging (regardless of the object in the sensuous plane through any of the 6 doorways), consider 3. Gopakamoggallaana Sutta, MN 108: (Ananda speaking): “The Blessed One, Brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation (jhaana.m), nor did he condemn every type of meditation. What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here, Brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust (kaamaraagapariyu.t.thitena cetasaa viharati), a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. "While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates (jhaayanti pajjhaayanti nijjhaayanti apajjhaayanti). He abides with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor....with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse......obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbours doubt within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation.” ***** S: The point I’m stressing is that one can be anywhere following any activity, even sitting quietly in the Bamboo Grove (Veluvana) as in the example above, but akusala (unwholesome) states such as attachment, are bound to follow kusala (wholesome) states all the time until wisdom and detachment are highly developed. It’s so natural to cling to sati(awareness) and other kinds of kusala, but such clinging has to be seen for what it is – a very, very common mental factor not belonging to anyone! Metta, Sarah ======== 57567 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana .. vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Connie), --- indriyabala wrote: > >Connie: > > ['hadaya rupa'] arises "wherever you think" ... confined to grosser > panca-vokaara planes' upadhi at bhavanga [next to the 'cut' as past > kamma conditions it thru-out life when it is not the occasion for one > of the five ajjhattika pasadas but the instant for that connection > with mano-vinnaana and dhammarammana and would be in evidence > whenever cittajarupa arise, i think]. > > Tep: This answer is too complicated for the slow learning > non-abhidhamma guy like me. I think I know 60 - 70% of what you are > getting at. > ........... S: You're doing well at that rate:-) Keep it up and soon you'll be able to give us some explanations too:-). Seriously, there are lots of buried gems in Connie's posts, so I appreciate your discussion with her and your digging for those gems. Metta, Sarah ======== 57568 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Dalmation, to James. nilovg Hi James, Thank you for your very nice post. I am sorry to have upset you. I was also upset. I can imagine the stress caused by such a dog. What about another type of dog, smaller, more quiet. A Jaques Russell, these are intelligent. I shall come back to this event as a good daily life example in another post. Nina. op 07-04-2006 01:54 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Good; I'm glad that we are cool again. I was quite upset by your > post, but I am better now. 57569 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. nilovg Dear Scott, Samaadhi, concentration arises with each citta, it may be kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Its function is focussing on one object. Right concentration of the eightfold Path develops together with right understanding of the eightfold Path and, when the Path is still mundane, it focusses on a nama or rupa, on one object at a time. We do not have to try to focus, as right understanding develops also right concentration, right effort, and the other factors perform their functions already. This also happens at the moment of insight when paññaa sees realities as they are. Concentration is the proximate cause, it arises together with paññaa, performing its function. It develops together with paññaa. When nibbaana is experienced, the concentration has become of the degree of the first jhaana, also in the case of those who have not developed mundane jhaana with the kasinas etc. I use Nyanamoli's transl. but I can find your quotes if you mention the chapter. Your first quote may be clearer now. Nina. op 07-04-2006 03:54 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > > "Here the method of developing that concentration which is spoken of > as being associated with the Noble Path . . . is comprised in that of > the developing of wisdom. For concentration is developed when wisdom > is developed. Therefore we say nothing separately as to how it should > be developed," (p. 105, Pe Maung Tin, trans.). 57571 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 884 ) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Htoo), Htoo wrote: > c) 19 general beautiful mental factors > > 1. confidence or sadda 1. confidence or sadda > 2. mindfulness or sati 2. balancer or > tatramajjhattata > 3. shame or hiri 3. non-attachment or > alobha > 4. fear or ottappa 4. non-aversion or > adosa > 5. mind-tranquility 5. mental-tranquility > or citta-passaddhi or kaayapassaddhi > 6. mind-lightness 6. mental-lightness > or citta-lahutaa or kaaya-lahutaa > 7. mind-mouldability 7. mental-mouldability > or citta-mudutaa or kaaya-mudutaa > 8. mind-workability 8. mental-workability > or citta-kammannataa or > kaaya-kammannataa > 9. mind-proficiency 9. mental-proficiency > or citta-pagunnataa or > kaaya-pagunnataa > 10.mind-uprightness 10.mental-uprightness > or cittaujukataa or kaayujukataa > > d) special beautiful mental factor > > 1. pannindria cetasika or panna cetasika .... S: Here Htoo uses saddha twice - he's used this classification before - maybe he referred to them as two armies of soldiers, both headed by saddha (I forget exactly, but I know it's deliberate). .... > Note by Han Tun: > > Under c) 19 general beautiful mental factors, > it was listed 20 items and words were mixed up. > I could not confirm this with U Htoo Naing. .... S: Yes, I'm not sure they're 'mixed up', but perhaps he'll elaborate again. ... > I have printed below the 19 general beautiful mental > factors taken from an Abhidhamma book. > > 1. saddhaa, faith, confidence > 2. sati, mindfulness > 3. hiri, moral shame > 4. ottappa, moral fear > 5. alobha, non-attachment > 6. adosa, non-aversion > 7. tatramajjhattataa, equanimity, mental balance > 8 kaaya-passaddhi, tranquility of mental concomitants > 9. citta-passaddhi, tranquility of consciousness > 10. kaaya-lahutaa, agility or lightness of mental > concomitants > 11. citta-lahutaa, agility or lightness of > consciousness > 12. kaaya-mudutaa, elasticity of mental concomitants > 13. citta-mudutaa, elasticity of consciousness > 14. kaaya-kammannataa, adaptability of mental > concomitants > 15. citta-kammannataa, adaptability of consciousness > 16. kaaya-pagunnataa, proficiency of mental > concomitants > 17. citta-pagunnataa, proficiency of consciousness > 18. kaayujjukataa, uprightness of mental concomitants > 19. cittujjukataa, uprightness of consciousness > > Here, kaaya does not mean ‘body’. > It refers to the ‘group’ of mental concomitants. > ===================== S: Thanks for your assistance - yes, this list may be clearer and it's good you add the note on kaaya:-) Thanks for all your work on the anatta-lakkana sutta. I look forward to any others you do. In the introduction to the commentary to the Mulapariya Sutta, the four reasons for giving a sutta by the Buddha are elaborated on with examples of each. Briefly these are a) the Buddha's own inclination, eg Mahasatipatthana Sutta, b) the inclination of others, eg Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, c) the four assemblies, gods etc approach the Buddha with questions, eg Samannaphala Sutta, d) a special incident has occurred, eg the conceit on account of learning of the brahmins in the Mulapariyaya Sutta. Please let me know if you'd like the full details - it's quite interesting. Metta, Sarah ========= Metta, Sarah ===== 57572 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Clinging to sanna of postures, phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil (Nina & Tep), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > op 01-04-2006 02:30 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > > I heard an interesting thing about a term that in Thai sounded > > like "Perk Iliyabot" It is about how clinging to sanna of postures > > interferes in some way with awareness of dhammas. > ------ > N: Iriyapada: posture. It must be pidbang, hide. Iriyapada pidbang > dukkha. > See Vis. Ch XXI, 3, about shifting postures when there is pain. <...> S: I also hear her often talking about 'poek' (or 'perk') iriyabot (for iriyapada). I've asked about the 'poek' before and I think I was told 'moving' or ‘changing’ postures. By adopting different postures and thinking that in reality there is sitting, standing and so on, the understanding of the rising and falling of realities is hidden. Sanna of course plays a big role in all of this, remembering the various postures. Perhaps poek and pidbang are the same then. I don’t see pidbang in Buddhadatta’s dict... On postures (iriyaapatha) from the commentary to the Vibhanga, transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (PTS) [like the Vism quote Nina gave]: *** “The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha).” [S: rather than being aware of postures, it is the idea of postures that conceals the truths about the elements as dukkha. When there is awareness, there’s no idea of posture at all] ... S: More in U.P. under ‘Postures’. Also, Phil, you gave a good ‘Philentary’ on extracts from the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary. See much more in U.P. under ‘Satipatthana Sutta & commentary’. Good to read your Philentary bursts at the weekends:-) Metta, Sarah ======== 57573 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three cheers for Kom!! HumanRealm is the ONLY LAUNCH PT.toNirvana. sarahprocter... Hi Eddie, --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, Sarah, > Glad to be some help and got recognized as a DSG member. ... :-) You'll be even better recognised if you would kindly put a photo in the member album (on the homepage). Also, would you remind us again whereabouts in the States (I think) you live.... [Oh and Tep in passing,thx for your other pix in passing, but we're still waiting for your half-promised member pic...now you know how to use the photo album, it should be easy:-)] ... > Quite a timing, I was to tell you of my receipt (received just > yesterday) of the book 'Survey on Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin > Boriharnwanaket. Thanks very much and a lot of info to absorb. Thanks > also to Sukin, can you please also let her know. ... S: Thx for letting us know. Just for the benefit of other newbies, let me assure everyone that Sukin is a 'he' and not to be confused with Sujin. [See photo album again for clarification:-)] If you find anything of special interest or any queeries from the book, pls raise them! ... > Your comment pointer to ..a quote of A.Sujin's which I heard on a tape > yesterday and liked a lot: > > "Anything which we think can help moves us away from the reality of > this > moment.".. > > One instance I can think of is when one is on a phone or cell phone, > especially more profound while driving, one is shifted from driving > moment of reality, to that of phone conversation. > > Thx for the encouragement, Sarah. ... S: Of course, there is also reality at each of these moments. If we think that driving or phone conversations are moving us away from the reality of this moment, that would be wrong too... Did you have anything else to add on this - I'm not sure if I understand your comment. Metta, Sarah ========= 57574 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 2:50am Subject: Indifference Creates Ignorance ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Neutral neither-painful-nor-pleasant Feeling creates Ignorance!!! The Blessed Buddha once said to some deadly sick bhikkhus: A bhikkhu should await his time aware and clearly comprehending... This is our instruction to you!!! While a bhikkhu lives in this way, aware & clearly comprehending, enthusiastic, keen, & determined, if there arises in him a neutral feeling, then he understands this: 'There has arisen in me this neutral feeling. Now that is dependent, not independent! Dependent on what? Dependent on just this contact! But this contact is impermanent, conditioned, & dependently arisen... So when the neutral feeling has arisen in dependence on a contact, that is impermanent, conditioned, & dependently arisen, how could it ever then itself be permanent?' He dwells in this way always contemplating the impermanence of any contact and the transience of any neutral feeling, and he considers thus the inevitable vanishing, fading away, ceasing, & the therefore necessary relinquishment of all conditioned constructions...!!! Therefore is his latent tendency to ignorance, created by the neglect of all neutral contacts & the inattention to all neutral feelings, gradually eliminated... He then understands: With the breakup of this body, at the exhaustion of this fragile life, any feeling, all that is felt, neither being opposed, nor clung to, nor neglected, will cool down right here... Comments: How does neutral feeling create ignorance? A: The contacted object is Neglected, since it does not produce pleasure... Since neutral feeling is not pleasant, it does not attract attention... Any mind, searching for pleasure, therefore neglects it & also the contacted object, which gave rise to this neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling... When the object is not examined by attention, ignorance is created. B: The contacted object is Neglected, since it does neither generate pain... Since neutral feeling is not painful, it does not alert the attention... Any mind, fleeing from pain, therefore neglects it & also the contacted object, which gave rise to this neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling... When the object is not known by consideration, ignorance is created. Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [214] section 36: feeling. Vedana. The Sick-Ward. 8. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57575 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 884 ) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Here Htoo uses saddha twice - he's used this classification before -maybe he referred to them as two armies of soldiers, both headed by saddha (I forget exactly, but I know it's deliberate). Han: As you mentioned, I now remember U Htoo Naing deliberately put that way to show two armies each headed by saddhaa. ------------------------------ Sarah: In the introduction to the commentary to the Mulapariya Sutta, the four reasons for giving a sutta by the Buddha are elaborated on with examples of each. Please let me know if you'd like the full details - it's quite interesting. Han: Yes, I will be most grateful to have full details. ----------------------------- Thank you also for your kind words about my presentation of Anattalakkhana sutta. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han (& Htoo), > > S: Here Htoo uses saddha twice - he's used this > classification before - > maybe he referred to them as two armies of soldiers, > both headed by saddha > (I forget exactly, but I know it's deliberate). > S: Thanks for your assistance - yes, this list may > be clearer and it's > good you add the note on kaaya:-) > > Thanks for all your work on the anatta-lakkana > sutta. I look forward to > any others you do. In the introduction to the > commentary to the Mulapariya > Sutta, the four reasons for giving a sutta by the > Buddha are elaborated on > with examples of each. > Please let me know if you'd like the full details - > it's quite > interesting. > > Metta, > Sarah > ========= 57576 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 5:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana .. vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m indriyabala Hi Sarah (& Connie) - I am surprised again how you manage your time so well that all on-going discussions never seem to escape your attention. {:>) > S: You're doing well at that rate:-) Keep it up and soon you'll be able to give us some explanations too:-). Seriously, there are lots of buried gems in Connie's posts, so I appreciate your discussion with her and your digging for those gems. Tep: Some of her gemstones are too heavy for me to handle! Will you give me a helping hand, Sarah? Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (& Connie), > > --- indriyabala wrote: > > > >Connie: > > > ['hadaya rupa'] arises "wherever you think" ... confined to grosser > > panca-vokaara planes' upadhi at bhavanga [next to the 'cut' as past > > kamma conditions it thru-out life when it is not the occasion for one > > of the five ajjhattika pasadas but the instant for that connection > > with mano-vinnaana and dhammarammana and would be in evidence > > whenever cittajarupa arise, i think]. > > > > Tep: This answer is too complicated for the slow learning > > non-abhidhamma guy like me. I think I know 60 - 70% of what you are > > getting at. > > ........... > (snipped) 57577 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. "I use Nyanamoli's transl. but I can find your quotes if you mention the chapter. Your first quote may be clearer now." Yes, that is helpful Nina. I'll consider things further. I tried to purchase the Nyanamoli translation but it is currently out of print. I bought the one I have in my haste to study. I'll likely order the Nyanamoli as well, just to have more of a common point of reference with you all. The quotes were from Chapter III, in Part II (Concentration), and from Chapter XIV, in Part III (Understanding). Sincerely, Scott. 57578 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 6:06am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scott scottduncan2 Dear Connie, This is greatly appreciated. "27. (viii) HOW SHOULD IT BE DEVELOPED? [A. Development in Brief] The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned ( section 7 ) under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane' etc., is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch.XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." "28. But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then appproach the Good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable. Then he should sever the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development." Thank you so much for your careful response. I'm going to take a bit of time to try to parse out the Pali but it is very much appreciated! Sincerely, Scott. 57579 From: "Tom Westheimer" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 6:41am Subject: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin nsdragonman This is from my daugher, any responses will be appreciated tom Please reply to marisa.westheimer@... Dear Dhamma Friend, My name is Marisa Westheimer and I am a senior at the University of Vermont. I am currently in the process of writing an undergraduate thesis that focuses on women in Buddhism in Thailand. Having known about Ajaan Sujin through my parents, Tom & Bev Westheimer,I was hoping to gather information about her work, the foundation, and people's perspectives of her as a case study for my thesis. While only one part of my thesis I feel it is an important one, particulary because I find personal stories most interesting. Below are a few questions that would hopefully allow you to share your experiences with me in regards to time spent with Ajaan Sujin. Any feedback, stories, and/or ideas are welcome and much appreciated. This is somewhat late notice as my thesis is due April 24th, but if you have time to answer one or all of the questions it would be extremely helpful. Also, if you know of anyone who also might be able to answer these questions and would like to forward them on that would be great. Thanks so much and feel free to contact me directly at marisa.westheimer@... Sincerely, Marisa Westheimer QUESTIONS: 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? 2. How did you find out about her? 3. What about her teachings attracted you? 4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. Thanks VERY much! 57580 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple jonoabb Hi Kom Kom Tukovinit wrote: >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for your comment. In regard to time, I believe the Buddha said, >whenever you spend into developing sila, samadhi, and panna is an >auspicious time. In regarding to place, I remember a few different >circumstances that may support the importance of a place: > > Yes, in some respects it can be said that time and place are hugely important. For example, to be born in a place and at a time when the teachings are extant is obviously a blessing. Likewise to be born into comfortable circumstances instead of extreme poverty or the like. Also, certain places have advantages for particular lifestyles (e.g., for developing higher levels of samatha, for following a particular form of dhutanga, etc). But as regards the development of insight, I don't think the Buddha mentioned any general considerations regarding preferred time or place. My general reading of the Satipatthana Sutta is more the other way: any dhamma, any doorway, any time or situation. Conventionally speaking, we do make some choices regarding place and, as you say, these will vary according to individual accumulations. But at any given moment we are where we are, and if we find ourselves thinking that the arising of awareness is made more or less difficult by our present situation, this is likely to be induced by wrong view of one kind or another, I would say. Thanks for the examples given in your message. I see them, as I think you do, as being specific to the individuals concerned, and not as illustrating any general principle that should be followed. Jon >1) In an advice to the Bikkhus, he said if a Bikkhu is at a place where >kusala doesn't develop, then the Bikkhu should leave that place regardless >if the life necessities are easy to come. > >2) In the famous Karineyametta suttra, when the Bikkhus were haunted by >the Devas and went to the Buddha to see if they could go to a different >place (where there is no haunting!) that they could reach arahatship, the >answer was no, and they got sent to the same forest. > >3) One of the attendants of the Buddha wanted to further his development >in a forest but the Buddha disagreed with him and discouraged him from >going. He went anyway, but it turned out that in this place, no >development of any kinds of kusala was possible for him. In his previous >life as a king, it was a royal park where he enjoyed many sensual desires >as well as sending people to death. The Pakatupa-nissaya pacaya of the >place was so strong for him that he cannot reach the path at the place. > >I think there are other circumstances which indicate the importance of a >place. People's accumulations are so vastly different that a place that >works for me wouldn't work for you... > >kom > > 57581 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 7:49am Subject: Discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Han (Tep and all who are interested), I had a Dhamma discussion with Lodewijk in a restaurant (where we celebrated something) and we touched on several of your points. Your Point 2: the relevance to the reality now. Only seeing, colour, feeling that appears now can be directly known. It is difficult, but one can begin to consider and investigate (even with imperfect awareness, perhaps more thinking than awareness) the dhamma of this moment. Understanding this has a greater impact than just thinking about what does not appear now. When we only think, the understanding of dhammas is not as clear as when their characteristics are directly known. I do not mean the three general (samañña)characteristics, I mean the specific (visesa) characteristics. Seeing sees visible object through the eyes, hearing hears sound through the ears, seeing and hearing have different specific characteristics. We also talked about your question: what can and should you do now? Lodewijk said, from what I had told him he thinks that you are well on your way to understand the Truth of Dhamma. The development of the perfections are essential, as Kh Sujin said, all of them, not neglecting even one. Mettaa is among them. We discussed paramattha dhammas and mettaa, and the fact that some ask: how to extend metta to a paramattha dhamma that is not a person. In our daily life we are mostly with other people. The Buddha preached to fellow human beings. At the same time we can learn that in the ultimate sense there is no person, no self. Understanding of paramattha dhammas is to be developed in daily life, we normally lead our daily life, observing siila, developing the four Brahma Vihaaras. If we reason too much about mettaa to whom, it is a sterile discussion. We just have to develop it, kindness for a person. Lodewijk: It is useless to think: there is no person sitting opposite me. Nina: but when that person is lying on his death bed, what then? Lodewijk: we are reminded of paramattha dhammas, we are reminded that in the ultimate sense there is no person. Nina: But also when he is alive this should be realized. Lodewijk: paññaa must be developed into that direction, also at this moment. Nina: Paññaa begins to understand that seeing sees visible object, not a person. L: This is a gradual development in daily life, nothing can be forced. N: Most people jump towards the three general characteristics, but this is not possible. When driving a car, we have to pay attention to traffic lights, it is not so that we see only colour and do not think about red or green. Another driver misbehaves in overtaking, and then dosa arises. We keep on paying attention to cars, persons, that is necessary. In between there can be very short moments of considering realities naturally. We may consider dosa and realize that it is a conditioned dhamma. Thus, there can be awareness of a paramattha dhamma in a very natural way, we do not stop driving to realize that. We do not have to think: there is no person, no car, that would not be natural. We are not so advanced yet that we have realized the truth of anattaa. Lodewijk: Gradually just a very slight amount of insight can be developed naturally, and that is enough for now. It can develop from life to life. N: It makes no sense to reason too much about paramattha dhammas, but as understanding develops we can see that what we at first found a dilemma is not a dilemma. When in Bangkok, Kh. Sujin took Sarah's mother on an outing, and we and a few others went along. We were sitting in a restaurant, walking in a parc, going to the riverside and visited an old Temple. We did not discuss Dhamma but we talked about many other things, it was all very natural. Kh. Sujin gave an example that paramattha dhammas do not have to be viewed in an academical way. There is no need to think all the time: there is no Sarah's mother, no Sarah, no other people. But in between, some understanding of dhammas can be developed, even though it is very little. Just one dhamma at a time, a nama or rupa as it appears through one of the six doors. It can be done, sati sampajañña is not concentration on dhammas for a period of time. Perhaps this solves your dilemma that you cannot realize: there is no Han sitting here and typing. There is no need to think this, but the typing does not prevent the development of understanding little by little. Nina. Nina. 57582 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:clinging to sati, sutta. nilovg Hi James, op 07-04-2006 03:07 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: N: >> Sati itself does not produce clinging, of course not. It arises > with wholesome citta. > > James: Well, that solves the issue- you agree with me that sati > isn't the object of clinging. ----------- N: As Sarah also explained (in her post to Tep): shortly after citta with sati has fallen away, there can be another citta, unwholesome citta, that clings. A citta does not know itself, it is another citta arising shortly afterwards that takes as object the citta that has just fallen away. Your dog caused havoc and you had dosa. Shortly after the citta with dosa had fallen away, you knew that there was dosa. Dosa was then the object of the present citta. Not an idea about dosa, but there was true dosa, or the unpleasant feeling that goes with it. Thus, when we speak about clinging to sati we have to differentiate the different moments. As Sarah said, and it happens, when we are generous, there can be pure generosity, but after that we may praise ourselves or feel that we are so good and noble. Or as in the sutta, the monk lauds himself and disparages others. The same, if there are conditions for a moment of considering hardness or visible object with awareness. There can be clinging with conceit to sati, not to an idea about sati, there was true sati. Or clinging to an idea of: I did it, my sati. -------- > But human nature, you know, clinging is so stubborn that it >> always finds an object. Even to what is most excellent, such as the >> liberation from samsara. > > James: This is clinging to an idea. Just because people may cling > to the idea of practicing sati, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't > practice it. They should just be more mindful of clinging. ------ N: Right, the Buddha told us to be aware also of unwholesomeness. We learn that it is a condiitoned dhamma. -------- >> Now a sutta: Middle Length Sayings, 137, the Exposition on the > sixfold base, >> B.B. transl p. 1068: about six kinds of grief based on > renunciation: '.... > James: Yes, I have experienced this grief. It is also called > wholesome depression in some texts. There's nothing wrong with it. -------- N: What I wanted to show: it is caused by clinging. It is not wholesome but not as coarse as grief based on the household life. It can be object of awareness so that the person concerned will not get stuck but go on developing understanding to reach arahatship. -------- >> Also in the satipatthaanasutta under seeing dhammas in dhammas, > the factor >> of enlightenment sati is mentioned: it is an object under the > application of >> mindfulness of dhammas, in order to see it as dhamma, dhamma in > dhamma, no >> self in dhamma. Why is that? Because it can be object of clinging > or wrong >> view, the view of 'my sati', 'I' am aware. > > James: You've lost me here. ------- N: Perhaps Sarah's post clarified some points here. The Buddha exhorted us to see clinging, aversion, and also wholesome realities as only dhamma, not belonging to anyone, because he knew that we cling to everything. Also to the Enlightenment factors of sati, investigation of dhamma, energy or effort, etc. There may be clinging to them, and that is why they are included in the Application of Mindfulness of dhammas. With what other purpose should there be mindfulness of these? Surely to eradicate defilements. Nina. 57583 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 7:49am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 68 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 68. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga gives a further explanation of the meaning of paccaya and in particular of the term root. It emphasizes the conditioning force of the roots while they assists the dhammas they condition. -------- Text: As to 'condition' (paccaya), the word-meaning here is this: It [the fruit] comes from that, depending thereon (pa.ticca etasmaa eti), thus that is a condition (paccaya); the meaning is, [a state] occurs by not dispensing with that. What is meant is: when a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. ------- N: The Tiika elaborates: a dhamma assists in the presence of another dhamma, by way of post-nascence-condition. Citta conditions ruupas of the body that have arisen before and that have not yet fallen away by way of postnascence condition, pacchaajaata-paccaya. Ruupas last longer than citta and that is why citta can condition the ruupas of the body produced by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. Citta conditions them in giving them support. The Tiika explains as to another condition, that one dhamma assists the arising of another dhamma, by way of contiguity-condition, anantara- paccaya. Each citta that falls away conditions the following citta by way of contiguity-condition. The Tiika explains that root-condition operates by assisting in both ways, in the presence and in the arising of another dhamma. The roots accompany citta, and therefore they assist in the presence of the ruupas that have arisen and have not fallen away yet. The roots that accompany the javana-citta also assist in the arising of the next javana-citta by way of contiguity-condition. ------- Text Vis.: But as to characteristic, a condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. ------- N: As to the expression, Œa condition has the characteristic of assisting¹, upakaarakalakkha.no, the Tiika explains that here the force (satti) in the conditioning dhamma is taught, namely the assistance it gives. The dhamma that is conditioned cannot be without the coniditoning dhamma, it is dependant on it. The Tiika compares root, hetu or muula, with the root of a tree. A tree is firmly established on its roots, and the roots carry the nutritive essence (oja) upwards and thus, the tree dependent on that bears fruit, it comes to growth and development. The roots are powerful conditions for the cittas rooted in them, and these roots can motivate kusala kamma or akusala kamma through body, speech and mind. The Tiika uses the expression kammanidaana, the source of kamma. Also the expression cause, kaara.na is used, and the Tiika adds: it bears its own fruit. Kamma produces its appropriate result. The kusala cittas and akusala cittas that are accompanied by akusala roots or beautiful roots are cittas that are cause. Vipaakacittas are cittas that are results. -------- Text Vis.: The words condition, cause, reason, source, originator, producer, etc., are one in meaning though different in the letter. So, since it is a cause in the sense of a root, and a condition in the sense of assistance, briefly a state that is assistantial in the sense of a root is a [root-]cause condition. ------------------------------------- N: Also the words originator (sambhavo), producer (pabhavo) are used. They are the same in meaning as stated. The Tiika explains that the word hetu, root, denotes a specific cause and the word condition, paccaya, denotes a general cause. There are twentyfour classes of conditions, paccaya, and one class in particular is root-condition. ****** Conclusion: Citta rooted in akusala hetus or citta rooted in beautiful hetus arises and this is dependant on accumulated kusala and akusala. As we have seen, the roots are very powerful, they have a special force in assisting the citta they accompany. They are the source of kamma that produces result by way of rebirth or during life by way of pleasant or unpleasant experiences through the senses. The roots have a far-reaching impact on our present life and on our lives to come. The arahat does not have roots that are the source of kamma, instead of mahaa-kusala cittas he has mahaa-kiriyacittas with sobhana hetus. It is during the javanacittas that kusala and akusala is accumulated. The akusala hetus and sobhana hetus that arise with the javanacittas fall away together with the citta, but they are accumulated so that they can arise again. Attachment arises very often because it has been accumulated. If there are conditions for the arising of understanding, it arises and falls away with the kusala citta and it is accumulated so that it can arise again. In this way understanding can gradually develop so that it eventually can reach maturity. ***** Nina. 57584 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Marisa (Tom, Bev, Val & all), Thanks for asking your questions on DSG and best wishes for your thesis. I gave you some brief answers already which I'll repeat here (slightly cleaned up) in the hope that it will encourage others to also share any answers given and spur others here who either know K.Sujin in person or from listening to her recordings/reading her books and so on to do the same for you. Another friend, Val (Kom's sister)also recently asked me off-list about my experiences in a temple in Sri Lanka, so this may be somewhat relevant to her questions too: > 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? .... 1975. A friend, Ann, lent me some tapes of discussions with A.Sujin which had a big impact. I had been living in a temple in Sri Lanka for several months at the time. I immediately stopped my meditation practices and started studying the ancient texts, discussing them with Ann, communicating with family and friends again and going into town for the first time in months. .... > 2. How did you find out about her? .... As above. Also I read a manuscript of Nina Van Gorkom's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' at the same time. (It wasn't yet printed). ... 3. What about her teachings > attracted you? .... S: The emphasis on anatta(no-self) and no control. What we think of as people and things are merely stories in our imagination. In truth, there are only namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). It hit home that we can never bring about particular results in our practice and that it's totally useless to try. All my intensive meditation had been strongly motivated by an idea of self and an idea of bringing about particular experiences with very strong attachment to getting such results. There was one segment of a tape from a trip to India she'd recently been on which had a very big impact. (I'll post it separately). After I returned to England, I received a set of tapes from Thailand which I listened to so often, I knew some segments off-by-heart like this one! I recently found it again after not having listened to it since that time. Also the first pages of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in particular, based on her teachings, was very impressive straight away. ... > 4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? .... S: I've spent quite a considerable amount of time with K.Sujin ever since I first started listening to her by way of staying with her, going on trips with her and regular visits to Bangkok with Jonothan for discussions with her (Discussions have just been held at the Foundation building in recent years). ........ > 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with > your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. ... S: Since I started listening to her in 1975 I haven't studied with anyone else and never returned to a formal meditation practice. After first listening to her, I left the temple in Sri Lanka and returned to England to resume an ordinary life of work, family and so on. I've never felt any need to retire from the world or lead any particular lifestyle since then. Small anecdote: The first time I travelled with A.Sujin was in Sri Lanka in 1977, also with Nina and another Thai friend. We were invited out every day to different homes for lunches. I had been strictly vegetarian for years and was worried about the food. On the first day, K.Sujin just started serving a very small helping of every dish onto my plate. I reminded her that I was vegetarian and couldn't eat most of them. She responded by smiling and saying sweetly that being considerate to the hosts was more important than any other ideas I might have, such as of cruelty to animals or health concerns, for example. I've never been vegetarian since. Hope this helps and hope you join us on the discussion list as well! Also, you could post the relevant part of your thesis in installments here too. Metta, Sarah p.s best wishes to Tom & Bev - pls encourage them to post their answers to your questions for us to read as well! ====================== 57585 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:what is sati. nilovg Hi James, I could add something to Rob's quote: same book. p. 159: this about natural strong dependence-condiiton. This is very wide: kusala can condition akusala, akusala can condition kusala, etc.But not at the same moment. Wisdom includes sati. Nina. op 07-04-2006 01:44 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > p.405 (translation Mula Patthana U Narada Sayadaw of Burma, Pali >> Text Society) >> ""After having offered the offering, having undertaken the > precept, >> having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights >> in it. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises >> doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief."" However, it isn't from the suttas and it > doesn't appear to be about sati (but actually, I can't quite figure > out what it is referring to. 57586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: arahat and D.O., Larry jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > >>I think it is clear from the suttas that even for the Buddha himself >>all conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha'. When he said that rupas (for >>example) are dukkha, he did not qualify that statement to exempt >>those who had become fully enlightened. >> >>Jon >> >> > >Well, you have a point. Could you quote to me the sutta where the >Buddha said that all rupas are dukkha, regardless of if they are clung >to or not? Thanks. > > I doubt there would be a sutta that contains words to the effect "regardless of if they are clung to or not". My point was just that when conditioned dhammas are described as being dukkha, that seems to be a general statement of universal application, not subject to qualification or reservation in respect of arahants. Jon 57587 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Icaro icarofranca wrote: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Buddhaghosa´s frame text is very classical, but it seemed to me that >Gotrabhuu - Change-of-lineage - occurs sometimes at the end of the >gradual path consciousness (at Vipassana´s for example), sometimes as >a step of some specific Jhana process, as the Buddha, Dhamma and >Sangha´s Recollections: in this cases Jhana consciousness would be >preceeded by Change-of-lineage. > But at the Vipassana path it can be better found at the end, as >Buddhaghosa´s text at Vism. may suggest, due its signless - animitta - >classification. Corrections are welcome and it will be interesting if >some other members of DSG (with more expertise on Visuddhimagga, as >Nina)could clarify this matter! > > To my understanding, both jhana citta and magga citta are preceded (immediately) by a change-of-lineage citta. The CMA explains (IV, Guide to #14): >>>>> In the case of jhana attainment it receives this name because it overcomes the sense-sphere lineage and evolves the lineage of sublime consciousness. In the case of the first path attainment, this moment is called change-of-lineage because it marks the transition from the lineage of worldlings to the lineage of the noble ones (ariya). The expression continues to be used figuratively for the moment of transition to the higher paths and fruits, though sometimes it is designated by a different name, vodaana, meaning "cleansing". >>>>> Jon 57588 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:35am Subject: 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) sarahprocter... Dear Marisa, (Scott, Phil & all), I just mentioned one segment of a tape which made a big impact as soon as I heard it whilst I was in Sri Lanka. K.Sujin had been on a trip to India the previous year, 1974 (also with Nina, Jonothan, Phra Dhammadharo and other friends). I mentioned that what struck me was ‘the emphasis on anatta(no-self) and no control. What we think of as people and things are merely stories in our imagination. In truth, there are only namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). I also learnt about ‘tor ruen’, a Thai phrase A.Sujin used. Here is a tidied up transcript of the segment of discussion at the Hotel de Paris in Varanasi (Benares). I hope others find it helpful too. ***** Phra D: I found that what you said to me on the bus yesterday extremely useful about ‘tor ruen’ .. Nina: What is that, ‘tor ruen’? .. Phra D: Jonothan yesterday said he heard the sound of the drum and immediately he had a picture in his mind of what people might be doing, beating the drums. He imagined something going on. .. Sujin,(translated by Phra D): When we see just for a moment then what we see has already fallen away. When we see things with which were familiar then immediately there’s the tendency to build up or make up long stories about them. Things with which we’re familiar, we tend to think about for a long time, whereas things we just know vaguely may only be with us for a moment or two and then we drop them. But things we’re very familiar with, we carry on and on and on. They’re both the same – say visual object appearing through the eyes in both cases, carrying on the story, ‘tor ruen’, fantasizing. The thinking about the visual object can go on and on and on, short or long depending, but really in both cases it’s just visual object. It’s the same with every doorway. Benares, the Hotel de Paris, this garden and all the people who are sitting in it, talking about dhamma - put them together in one moment of citta which is in fact what is happening because we have the concept of that all in one moment of citta, then suppose we should die at this very moment. Then as the citta containing the world, Benares, Hotel de Paris, people sitting in the garden, falls away, so does Benares, do does the Hotel de Paris, so do all the people sitting in the garden, all fall away with that citta, never to appear again. But the only reason that it seems to us that Benares, the Hotel de Paris, the people sitting in the garden talking about dhamma don’t fall away is because of ‘tor ruen’, carries on the story, one after the other, keeps it going. But if we should die, end of the story. Phra D: this must lead to more detachment. ***** Even now, most of the day - long, long stories about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched, and so very little awareness! But, knowing (at any level) that life, that all we find dear and important exists just in this one citta is extremely liberating and inspiring I find. Metta, Ssrah ================================== 57589 From: "ericlonline" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. ericlonline Hi Sarah & All, --- indriyabala wrote: T:> But the Buddha never warned about clingings to jhana, sati, or vayama; although miccha-samadhi, miccha-sati and miccha-vayama were possible.> Why did he not? .... S: After you show some generosity to someone or have metta, is there never any attachment to that kindness afterwards? Do you never think `ah, that was a good deed I did' with some satisfaction or clinging to being a kind person at such a time? I NEVER think that Sarah. I just try and help where and when I can. Simple as that. There is a goodness in our hearts that does not need to be commented on by ourselves. In a way this is also learned and cultivated in a sitting practice. One learns to not always narrate on what is happening. That discursive judgemental thinking process is let go of. It takes time and practice to 'control' the mind in this manner till it is seen that those thoughts just are not needed anymore. S:It seems to me that the idea of self and clinging to self are so deeplyrooted that when wholesome states such as sati don't arise very often, there is bound to be attachment and other kilesa (defilements) following them instantly when they do arise. That's why right understanding has to develop and know all these different states for what they are, anatta and uncontrollable. Yes of course. This is also why jhana helps as the hindrances are abated. This gives sati the room to grow, set roots and be cultivated. In a hindered state of mind, the sati is choked by clinging and it is not allowed to grow in strength or intensity. There is a modicum of control that is attained but as you say, that is also seen with wisdom. ***** S:... here are a few more passages for consideration from MN (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): On attachment to all skilful states inc. jhanas, consider 1. Sappurisa Sutta, 113 "Moreover, an untrue man who is learned...who is expert in the Discipline...who is a preacher of the Dhamma...who is a forest dweller...who is a refuse-rag earer...an almsfood eater...a tree-root dweller.... a charnel-ground dweller..an open-air dweller.... a continual sitter....an any-bed user....a one-session eater considers thus: `I am a one-session eater; but these other bhikkhus are not one-session eaters.' So he lauds himself and disparages others....... `Moreover, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, an untrue man enters upon and abides in the first jhana [later 2nd jhana and so on up to `enters and abides in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception'].....He considers thus: `I have gained the attainment of the first jhana [and later for all the other attainments repeated]; but these other bhikkhus have not gained the attainment of the first jhana.' So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his attainment of the first jhana......" Those thoughts do not arise while in jhana but only after. The problem here is not with jhana but with self view. ***** S: On the deeply rooted attachment to self and clinging to [wholesome] cittas (consciousness) when they've fallen away and the agitation which follows, consider 2.Uddesavibhanga Sutta, MN138: "He regards feeling as self....perception...formations...consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That consciousness of his changes and becomes otherwise. With the change and becoming otherwise of that consciousness, his consciousness is preoccupied with the change of consciousness. Agitated states of mind born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is obsessed, he is anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to clinging he becomes agitated. That is how there is agitation due to clinging." Again, this is not a problem with jhana. Jhana is not the cause of this. Clinging to being is. ***** S: Finally, on changing states, bad meditation and clinging (regardless of the object in the sensuous plane through any of the 6 doorways), consider 3. Gopakamoggallaana Sutta, MN 108: (Ananda speaking): "The Blessed One, Brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation (jhaana.m), nor did he condemn every type of meditation. What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here, Brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust (kaamaraagapariyu.t.thitena cetasaa viharati), a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. "While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates (jhaayanti pajjhaayanti nijjhaayanti apajjhaayanti). He abides with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor....with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse......obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbours doubt within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation." This is a great snippet here. Clearly showing that if you are meditating and the 5 hindrances are there and you are doing nothing about them, then you are mismeditating. The 5 hindrances are abandoned in jhana. ***** S: The point I'm stressing is that one can be anywhere following any activity, even sitting quietly in the Bamboo Grove (Veluvana) as in the example above, but akusala (unwholesome) states such as attachment, are bound to follow kusala (wholesome) states all the time until wisdom and detachment are highly developed. It's so natural to cling to sati(awareness) and other kinds of kusala, but such clinging has to be seen for what it is – a very, very common mental factor not belonging to anyone! Indeed 57590 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) mlnease Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:35 AM Subject: [dsg] 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) Is 'tor ruen' related directly to 'papa~nca'? Thanks, mike 57591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: moving to the second temple. Any time and place. nilovg Hi Jon, what a lovely reminder. This should sink in, we often forget. Nina. op 07-04-2006 16:29 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > My general reading of the Satipatthana Sutta is more the other way: any > dhamma, any doorway, any time or situation. 57592 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion with Lodewijk. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you and Mr. Lodewijk very much for your kind explanations. I have noted them with respect. Some of the points that I have noted are: - Only seeing, colour, feeling that appears now can be directly known. It is difficult, but one can begin to consider and investigate (even with imperfect awareness, perhaps more thinking than awareness) the dhamma of this moment. Understanding this has a greater impact than just thinking about what does not appear now. When we only think, the understanding of dhammas is not as clear as when their characteristics are directly known. - We also talked about your question: what can and should you do now? Lodewijk said, from what I had told him he thinks that you are well on your way to understand the Truth of Dhamma. - We discussed paramattha dhammas and mettaa, and the fact that some ask: how to extend metta to a paramattha dhamma that is not a person. -- we can learn that in the ultimate sense there is no person, no self. – [but] if we reason too much about mettaa to whom, it is a sterile discussion. We just have to develop it, kindness for a person. - When driving a car, we keep on paying attention to cars, persons, that is necessary. In between there can be very short moments of considering realities naturally. We may consider dosa and realize that it is a conditioned dhamma. Thus, there can be awareness of a paramattha dhamma in a very natural way, we do not stop driving to realize that. We do not have to think: there is no person, no car, that would not be natural. We are not so advanced yet that we have realized the truth of anattaa. - Kh. Sujin gave an example that paramattha dhammas do not have to be viewed in an academical way. There is no need to think all the time: there is no Sarah's mother, no Sarah, no other people. But in between, some understanding of dhammas can be developed, even though it is very little. Just one dhamma at a time, a nama or rupa as it appears through one of the six doors. It can be done, sati sampajañña is not concentration on dhammas for a period of time. With metta and deepest respect, Han 57593 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 3:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala Hi Sarah, Eric, and all - Thank you both for the interesting and valuable perspectives. Eric, after reading your reply to Sarah, I felt as if we had graduated from the same school on jhana. Sarah, I also found myself in agreement with you in other aspects that Eric did not disagree. 1. Investigation of the wholesome states . ........................................ >S: After you show some generosity to someone or have metta, is there never any attachment to that kindness afterwards? Do you never think `ah, that was a good deed I did' with some satisfaction or clinging to being a kind person at such a time? >E: I NEVER think that Sarah. I just try and help where and when I can. Simple as that. There is a goodness in our hearts that does not need to be commented on by ourselves. In a way this is also learned and cultivated in a sitting practice. One learns to not always narrate on what is happening. That discursive judgemental thinking process is let go of. It takes time and practice to 'control' the mind in this manner till it is seen that those thoughts just are not needed anymore. Tep: I think what Sarah described is useful for analysis (investigation, 'vicaya') of the dhamma in daily life, and what Eric described is true for tranquillity development such as kayagata-sati. "... And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body." [MN 119] -------- 2. Contemplation of not-self ............................. >S: It seems to me that the idea of self and clinging to self are so deeply rooted that when wholesome states such as sati don't arise very often, there is bound to be attachment and other kilesa (defilements) following them instantly when they do arise. That's why right understanding has to develop and know all these different states for what they are, anatta and uncontrollable. >E: Yes of course. This is also why jhana helps as the hindrances are abated. This gives sati the room to grow, set roots and be cultivated. In a hindered state of mind, the sati is choked by clinging and it is not allowed to grow in strength or intensity. There is a modicum of control that is attained but as you say, that is also seen with wisdom. Tep: I think Sarah was talking about "right understanding" (right discernment; yathaabuutam sammappaññaaya datthabam) as explained in the Anattalakkhana Sutta. "...every body is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' ...every feeling ..., every perception ..., every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' " On the other hand, I think, Eric was talking about hindrances-free concentration as the requisite condition for right discernment -- seeing & knowing "things" as they "actually are present". "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' Ear ... Nose Tongue Body Intellect ... inconstant. [SN XXXV.99] ----- 3. Attachment to Jhana and other Skilfull States ................................................ >S: (quoting Sappurisa, 113) "Moreover, an untrue man who is learned...who is expert in the Discipline...who is a preacher of the Dhamma...who is a forest dweller.. ... I am a one-session eater; but these other bhikkhus are not one-session eaters.' So he lauds himself and disparages others....... `I have gained the attainment of the first jhana [and later for all the other attainments repeated]; but these other bhikkhus have not gained the attainment of the first jhana.' So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his attainment of the first jhana......" >E: Those thoughts do not arise while in jhana but only after. The problem here is not with jhana but with self view. Tep: I think such self laudation and disparaging others is caused by conceit rather than clinging to the achieved skilfull states. ---- 4. Agitation Due to Clinging ............................. >S: On the deeply rooted attachment to self and clinging to [wholesome] cittas (consciousness) when they've fallen away and the agitation which follows, consider Uddesavibhanga Sutta, MN138). "He regards feeling as self.... perception... formations... consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That consciousness of his changes and becomes otherwise. With the change and becoming otherwise of that consciousness, his consciousness is preoccupied with the change of consciousness. Agitated states of mind born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is obsessed, he is anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to clinging he becomes agitated. That is how there is agitation due to clinging." >E: Again, this is not a problem with jhana. Jhana is not the cause of this. Clinging to being is. Tep: It is true that the "agitated states of mind born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness" are due to clinging. Eric is right that this is clinging to the five aggregates that define a "being" by uninstructed persons. ----- >S: The point I'm stressing is that one can be anywhere following any activity, even sitting quietly in the Bamboo Grove (Veluvana) as in the example above [MN 108], but akusala (unwholesome) states such as attachment, are bound to follow kusala (wholesome) states all the time until wisdom and detachment are highly developed. It's so natural to cling to sati (awareness) and other kinds of kusala, but such clinging has to be seen for what it is – a very, very common mental factor not belonging to anyone! >E: Indeed Tep: Yes, indeed ! Sincerely, Tep, your friend. ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hi Sarah & All, > > --- indriyabala wrote: > > T:> But the Buddha never warned about clingings to jhana, sati, or > vayama; although miccha-samadhi, miccha-sati and miccha-vayama were > possible.> Why did he not? > .... > S: After you show some generosity to someone or have metta, is there > never any attachment to that kindness afterwards? Do you never > think `ah, that was a good deed I did' with some satisfaction or > clinging to being a kind person at such a time? > > I NEVER think that Sarah. I just try and > help where and when I can. Simple as that. > There is a goodness in our hearts that does > not need to be commented on by ourselves. In > a way this is also learned and cultivated in > a sitting practice. One learns to not always > narrate on what is happening. That discursive > judgemental thinking process is let go of. It > takes time and practice to 'control' the mind > in this manner till it is seen that those > thoughts just are not needed anymore. > (snipped) 57594 From: connie Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 4:29pm Subject: re: handering nichiconn dear tep, it's been suggested that "one should become like Cittagutta, the Elder, who lived in the great Kurandaka Cave." and of course, we must protest: but where is my assurance that 'I shall know what I did not yet know'? evam-eva kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu imam-eva kaaya.m, even so, monks, a monk in regard to this very body, yathaa.thita.m yathaapa.nihita.m dhaatuso paccavekkhati: however placed, however disposed, reflects by way of the elements: "Atthi imasmi.m kaaye, "There are in this body, pa.thaviidhaatu aapodhaatu tejodhaatu vaayodhaatuu" ti. the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the wind element." and protest again: but the bhikkhu is Disciplined! there must be another way... "Iti imasmi.m asati ida.m na hoti; imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati, ... "This not being so, that is not; from the ceasing of this, that ceases, [etc, etc] {...sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa nirujjhanti, grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair (all) cease, evam-etassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotii" ti. and so there is a cessation of this whole mass of suffering."} i am sorry to be like one with no arms to carry the gems and poor eyesight to even see them in the rough & thus, continue to appreciate your resourcefulness. thank you, c. Tep: That again does not fit the ordinary people. So what do you suggest they do? 57595 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion with Lodewijk. indriyabala Hi, Nina (and Han) - I am thankful to Han for the summary of your discussion with Mr. Van Gorkom. I am going to keep it in my notebook for a future reference. Since everything is clearly stated, there are no questions I can think of right now. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you and Mr. Lodewijk very much for your kind > explanations. I have noted them with respect. > Some of the points that I have noted are: > (snipped) 57596 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 5:54pm Subject: Re: handering ... mindfulness immersed in the body indriyabala Dear Connie - Thank you for the nice reply that adequately answered the question. The contemplation of the body (kaya) as properties (dhatus) -- a kayagatasati kamatthaana (mindfulness immersed in the body) - is easier to understand by the ordinary people than, say, anapanasati or contemplation of the four noble truths. What impresses me the most about this kayagatasati discourse (MN 119) is the following passage. "Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, these ten benefits can be expected." My Pali knowledge is elementary -- I only know how to use the Pali-English dictionaries, do not know the grammar. If it would not inconvenience you much, could you please elaborate on the original Pali of the following words: cultivate; develop; pursue; hand the rein; consolidate; well-undertaken, i.e., altogether, do they mean more than 'samma vayamo' ? Thank you very much indeed, Connie. Most Pali experts, after being asked only a few times, advised me to study the Pali language myself (equivalently, each of them said : "Grow up! Stop bothering me."). {:>)) Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > dear tep, > > it's been suggested that "one should become like Cittagutta, the Elder, > who lived in the great Kurandaka Cave." > and of course, we must protest: but where is my assurance that 'I shall > know what I did not yet know'? > (snipped) 57597 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 6:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I have a bit more time to give to your kind response. I appreciate the effort you put into this reply (and all the others). "Samaadhi, concentration arises with each citta, it may be kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Its function is focussing on one object. Right concentration of the eightfold Path develops together with right understanding of the eightfold Path and, when the Path is still mundane, it focusses on a nama or rupa, on one object at a time. We do not have to try to focus, as right understanding develops also right concentration, right effort, and the other factors perform their functions already." I stopped here as I read the text. I've been, along with the others here, contemplating the deep teachings related to the belief in control (self) and how this is wrong view. Here, when you say "we do not have to try to focus," I know this is correct. I find myself thinking that this is what the generic, "pop-buddhist" admonition to "let go" is about in a deeper way. If I stop trying to force these things to happen, by whatever means I can rationalise, not only will they happen but then so will right understanding, and more. "This also happens at the moment of insight when paññaa sees realities as they are. Concentration is the proximate cause, it arises together with paññaa, performing its function. It develops together with paññaa. When nibbaana is experienced, the concentration has become of the degree of the first jhaana, also in the case of those who have not developed mundane jhaana with the kasinas etc." I think here of a question: Is the moment pa.n.na arises instantaneous? If so (I think it is), does one experience its nimitta later in the form of thoughts about that which was experienced with pa.n.na? Is it true that many things can change, when it comes to things like the "experience of nibbaana," but in an instant? Is there a nimitta associated with this? Like a "dream" about it but in the form of memories or some other illusively self-like phenomenon? Sincerely, Scott. 57598 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 7:47pm Subject: Re: 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I've been following the reaction to this and have been pondering this a lot. It is quite significant. "I mentioned that what struck me was `the emphasis on anatta(no-self) and no control. What we think of as people and things are merely stories in our imagination. In truth, there are only namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena)." Sujin,(translated by Phra D): "When we see just for a moment then what we see has already fallen away. When we see things with which were familiar then immediately there's the tendency to build up or make up long stories about them. Things with which we're familiar, we tend to think about for a long time, whereas things we just know vaguely may only be with us for a moment or two and then we drop them. But things we're very familiar with, we carry on and on and on. "They're both the same – say visual object appearing through the eyes in both cases, carrying on the story, `tor ruen', fantasizing. The thinking about the visual object can go on and on and on, short or long depending, but really in both cases it's just visual object. It's the same with every doorway. "Benares, the Hotel de Paris, this garden and all the people who are sitting in it, talking about dhamma - put them together in one moment of citta which is in fact what is happening because we have the concept of that all in one moment of citta, then suppose we should die at this very moment. Then as the citta containing the world, Benares, Hotel de Paris, people sitting in the garden, falls away, so does Benares, do does the Hotel de Paris, so do all the people sitting in the garden, all fall away with that citta, never to appear again. "But the only reason that it seems to us that Benares, the Hotel de Paris, the people sitting in the garden talking about dhamma don't fall away is because of `tor ruen', carries on the story, one after the other, keeps it going. But if we should die, end of the story. "Even now, most of the day - long, long stories about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched, and so very little awareness! But, knowing (at any level) that life, that all we find dear and important exists just in this one citta is extremely liberating and inspiring I find." Its quite sobering, really. An instant is all there is to "real life." And I'm missing it constantly. Sincerely, Scott. 57599 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 9:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) nilovg Dear Scott, We all miss it but the truth can be learnt little by little. Just now there is one dhamma appearing at a time, not more than one. When hardness appears, there is no sound appearing at the same time. That is the way to learn. To become used to different characteristics one at a time. In this way we can learn the difference between thinking that thinks of many concepts and mindfulness of only one characteristic. Nina. op 08-04-2006 04:47 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Its quite sobering, really. An instant is all there is to "real > life." And I'm missing it constantly.