#61600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH nilovg Hi James, Howard, ;-)) ;-)) Robert has on his forum also an article of Karunadasa which I appreciated and quoted. But I do not follow him in all aspects. I do not even know what pluralism is, I get lost. Too many definitions make me very tired, but that is personal, as I said to Howard. Nina. Op 19-jul-2006, om 6:11 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Nina has > read Karunadasa and she still doesn't get it. 10) #61601 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/19/06 1:04:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Ken - > > > > With regard to our recent postings, I provide some material > from > >Karunadasa's Dhamma Theory article > > > Thanks for supplying this material from Karunadasa. As I have > written before, I believe that Karunadasa has the correct > interpretation of the Abhidhamma, as opposed to K. Sujin's and > Nina's interpretation which is pluralistic. Pluralism is > incompatible with DO. Honestly, I don't see how anyone could not > see this. I argued the same thing in DSG before I even read > Karunadasa's article (I forgot who first linked it to me; Did you?). ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall, but I don't think I was the one. ----------------------------------- > > > But, honestly, do you think that presenting this article to Ken H. > is going to change his mind? If he has the lack of insight to > accept a pluralistic approach to the dhamma, he isn't going to > understand or appreciate anything Karunadasa has to say. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, one never knows. ------------------------------------ Nina has > > read Karunadasa and she still doesn't get it. I linked Phil to > Karunadasa and he still doesn't get it. I don't think that they are > ever going to get it. ------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect that Nina very much understands my point and sees validity to it but is in the habit of speaking in agency terms about dhammas. Even Karunadasa notes that such is a common conventional way of speaking about dhammas. Ken has wondered aloud recently with regard to that being dangerous, thinking that it is not so. But I think it is very dangerous, because how we speak is closely tied to how we think, and that to how we understand. I haven't conversed enough with Phil to know his deepset attitude on this matter. ----------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ================== With metta, Howard 10) #61602 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: K. Sujin on "No 'Tryng'" upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 7/18/06 11:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi James > > Since you said there is a little self in the pituitary gland, so can > you ask this little self to say when seeing red, I wish to see blue > (assuming we are not colour blind :->) Or when one see something > unpleasant like a dung, could the little self now change it to > flower. Also dont use imagination because that is cheating ok :-) We > can move the iris left and right, could we do it for changing of > colours. > > > Cheers > Ken O > ====================== Note, though, Ken, as you yourself point out, one *can* imagine many things at will, one *can* look left or right at wll. And, of course, there is a host of other things that can be added to the list of things one *can* do at will. This "one" talk is figurative. I provide this brief disclaimer for any folks who, like "other Ken" ;-), might be waiting to "pounce". (Hi, KenH! :-) My point, Ken, is that "control" needn't be an omnipotence. Also, one can often be trained to control or at least influence much of what one *normally* cannot control. So, there *is* control. What there is not are two things: 1) Absolute and universal control, and 2) a literal controller. With metta, Howard 27) #61603 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling upasaka_howard Hi again Ken (KenH, I mean) - In a message dated 7/19/06 2:08:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > Howard: > What is consciousness if not an event? An activity? A happening? I > can't imagine. > ====================== That is easily misunderstood as I wrote it. What I should have written is the following: "What is consciousness if not an event, an activity, a happening? I can't imagine." With metta, Howard 30) #61604 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, Howard, > ;-)) ;-)) > Robert has on his forum also an article of Karunadasa which I > appreciated and quoted. But I do not follow him in all aspects. James: What do you agree and disagree with? I think it would be a worthwhile discussion if you detailed this. I do > not even know what pluralism is, I get lost. James: Fair enough, I had to look it up myself. I knew the concept but not the label. Anyway, from dictionary.com: pluralism n : the doctrine that reality consists of several basic substances or elements Too many definitions > make me very tired, but that is personal, as I said to Howard. James: If one glosses over definitons then communication becomes impossible. > Nina. Metta, James 10) #61605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life 28 nilovg Dear friends, We then read about many more perils in pleasures of the senses, and about the bad results they will cause in the future. The Buddha also explained about the satisfaction and peril in ``material shapes''. We read: ``And what, monks, is the satisfaction in material shapes? Monks, it is like a girl in a noble's family or a brahman's family or a householder's family who at the age of fifteen or sixteen is not too tall, not too short, not too thin, not too fat, not too dark, not too fair--is she, monks, at the height of her beauty and loveliness at that time?'' ``Yes, Lord.'' ``Monks, whatever happiness and pleasure arise because of beauty and loveliness, this is satisfaction in material shapes. And what, monks, is peril in material shapes? As to this, monks, one might see that same lady after a time, eighty or ninety or a hundred years old, aged, crooked as a rafter, bent, leaning on a stick, going along palsied, miserable, youth gone, teeth broken, hair thinned, skin wrinkled, stumbling along, the limbs discoloured... ...And again, monks, one might see that same lady, her body thrown aside in a cemetery, dead for one, two or three days, swollen, discoloured, decomposing. What would you think, monks? That which was former beauty and loveliness has vanished, a peril has appeared?'' ``Yes, Lord.'' ``This too, monks, is a peril in material shapes...'' What the Buddha told the monks may sound crude to us, but it is reality. We find it difficult to accept life as it really is: birth, old age, sickness and death. We cannot bear to think of our own body or the body of someone who is dear to us as being a corpse. We accept being born, but we find it difficult to accept the consequences of birth, which are old age, sickness and death. We wish to ignore the impermanence of all conditioned things. When we look into the mirror and when we take care of our body we are inclined to take it for something which stays and which belongs to us. However, the body is only rúpa, elements which fall away as soon as they have arisen. There is no particle of the body which lasts. ******* Nina. 1) #61606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH nilovg Hi Howard, ??? Please, give an example. Nina. Op 19-jul-2006, om 17:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I suspect that Nina very much understands my point and sees > validity to > it but is in the habit of speaking in agency terms about dhammas. 10) #61607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:36 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 10 nilovg Dear friends, < You wrote that awareness helps you to be less involved when unpleasant things happen. When there are conditions for sati and pañña we are not taken in by the objects which present themselves through the six doors. However, there are many moments of forgetfulness of realities. For instance, when feelings are intense, we tend to take them for self, we find it very difficult to see them as only conditioned realities. At times we have unpleasant experiences and there is akusala vipaka through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or bodysense. The other day someone hit me, meaning it as a joke. Feeling the impact of it was akusala vipaka through the bodysense. Why, why did this have to happen? At such moments one may be upset and there is no awareness. Of course, I know why it happened: it was akusala vipaka, the result of akusala kamma. Thus we see that everything we have to experience are only conditioned realities, and also our like or dislike of what happens, and our feelings, are only conditioned realities. Our attachment or dislike are not vipaka, they arise with akusala cittas which are conditioned by our accumulated defilements. There are different types of conditions which play their part in our life. ******* Nina. 1) #61608 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/19/06 1:46:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ??? Please, give an example. > Nina. > Op 19-jul-2006, om 17:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >I suspect that Nina very much understands my point and sees > >validity to > >it but is in the habit of speaking in agency terms about dhammas. > =================== I presume you are asking for an axample of your speaking in agency terms about dhammas. I'm thinking of every time that you say that cittas know, and vedana feels, and sa~n~na perceives and so on. The following are a couple specific examples: + You said to Larry: "You want to turn your head, javana cittas cause it to turn." + You wrote to Phil: "Characteristics present themselves, and we can begin to be aware of them." + You wrote to Larry: "Seeing performs the function of seeing, dassana kicca. Hearing performs the function of hearing, savana kicca." I consider the preceding to be instances of agency termnology, especially the first and third. (Certainly no crime! ;-) But best avoided when possible, IMO.) With metta, Howard 10) #61609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:31 am Subject: On Awareness, by Rob K. nilovg Dear friends, this is taken from Rob K's forum, a post he wrote before. < Let me give some scenarios as rough (very rough) illustrations: I'll use "I" a lot just to make it conversational- but remember no "I" in reality. 1. I concentrate on seeing, trying to separate the colour(rupa) from the seeing (nama) - but with a citta rooted in lobha of some degree that is hoping to really understand. (the wrong way) 2. I concentrate on seeing but with a citta rooted in lobha and ditthi - I think I can control sati, samadhi and the other cetasikas - (wrong again). 3. I do nothing and just trust that one day sati and panna will arise out of the blue. (the opposite extreme). 4. I study in a very detached way colour or seeing or any other dhamma that is predominant at any door but without any hope for result or feeling that I can bring up sati. I realise that sati arises very seldom and that even this apparently detached study is still 99.99999% done with cittas rooted in lobha and moha. If I feel that I can control anything I know this shows a weakness in theoretical understanding. I am not sure if there was any sati at all actually. I have a slight headache right now and so the tightness and vibration in that area are apparent - if there is awareness then these dhammas are seen without aversion. But how easily the idea of "my awareness" comes in. And (assuming there was awareness) awareness of these elements could have been of the type that is samattha (the elements) or of vipassana - which was it? My son was just talking to me and I was studying the doorways of ear and eye. Studying sound and colour and breaking down, dissecting the concepts of "son" and "me". Sound is not son, colour is not son. This is what I would call "considering in the present moment"- not clear understanding. Just now I looked up. But there is no "me". The commentary says (p121 Fruits of recuseship), talking about looking ahead or looking aside, "the eye is a support condition : forms are an object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive support, absence, and disapperance condition; light is a decisive support condition; feeling etc are conascence conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these conditions. Therein, who is it that looks ahead? Who looks aside?" Realities are arising at the six doors all the time. We need to learn to see that a moment at one door is different from a moment at another. There has to be study, investigation of these dhammas, but in the right way - and that is not easy, it is conditioned, it needs accumulations and study. In fact the meditation centers and the different methods, have got it right when they emphasize direct study of paramattha dhammas. The thing is, though, is that effort and intention can so easily be akusala, tied up in subtle ideas of self and achievement. Understanding of arising and ceasing is an advanced stage of vipassana that comes after the first stage where the difference betwen nama and rupa are clearly seen. Everyone can see that cittas change and that rupas change. If we make it our life study we will see this change incessantly. Nonetheless this is not what is meant by arising and ceasing at the level of vipassana . Khun Sujin's descriptions of vipassana nanas make it clear that at this level there is no idea at all of anyone making it happen. In fact it happens in a flash - it cannot be controlled. The mind door is revealed and the difference between nama and rupas is clearly seen. I can write more about this if you have specific questions. Robert> End quote. Nina. 1) #61610 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH nilovg Hi James, Howard, I think the article on paññatti by Karunadasa is good, that was on Rob K's forum, and I quoted it for Howard. See, of concept it cannot be said that it arises and falls away. Therefore I hold it that citta and accompanying cetasikas are not a concept. They arise and fall away. See below. But what Howard recently quoted, as I said, it seems very theoretical to me. Nina. Op 19-jul-2006, om 18:35 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: What do you agree and disagree with? I think it would be a > worthwhile discussion if you detailed this. ---------- The Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 (Buddhist Publication society) Karunadasa: QUOTE "Because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own- nature, with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively produced. Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own- nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality." ****** end quote. 10) #61611 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina- In a message dated 7/19/06 2:40:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > + You said to Larry: "You want to turn your head, javana cittas cause > it to turn." > > + You wrote to Phil: "Characteristics present themselves, and we can > begin to be aware of them." > > > + You wrote to Larry: "Seeing performs the function of seeing, dassana > kicca. Hearing performs the function of hearing, savana kicca." > > I consider the preceding to be instances of agency termnology, > especially the first and third. > (Certainly no crime! ;-) But best avoided when possible, IMO.) > ===================== A slight modification of what I said: It is really just the 3rd of these statements that serves as a really good example of the sort of agency terminology I have in mind. It would be difficult to express the 1st any way other than you did. As for the 2nd, which is somewhat harmless, I would consider writing "Characteristics appear" as an improvement on "Characteristics present themselves," because that "present themselves" formulation is definitely agency-oriented in form (though likely not in intent, and used only as a literary technique.) With metta, Howard 10) #61612 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-jul-2006, om 21:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > If direct awareness of dhammas could not arise before the first > stage > > of insight, how could there be a stage of insight? It is a gradual > > process, a growing of sati and paññaa, towards that stage of > insight. > > But no use to speculate who can and who cannot. > > Nina. > > > ====================== > Yay!! I love every word you said here, Nina! Exactly so!!! ------- N: O.K. But now we have to continue about awareness and understanding of dhammas that each have their own specific characteristic (sabhaava!). You spoke about the article of Karunadasa, and here is a sentence I fell over: The detailed description of dhammas you find in the Abhidhamma is done only for one purpose: to understand that dhammas are without a living soul, that they are not a person. I may have misunderstood you, but do you mean that citta is reality, but that citta and cetasikas together are a concept? You often stress that they are interdependent and that is right. There is no citta without cetasikas and no cetasikas without citta. Citta rooted in lobha appears all the time in daily life, and we do not have to name lobha as such, its characteristic appears. It is accompanied by feeling. Feeling may be predominant and then its characteristic appears. I think we should not try to find out whether citta or cetasika is predominant and object of awareness, that is thinking. What you render of Karunadasa seems to me so many definitions, it seems so complicated. so much thinking involved, but that is my personal impression. Nina. 17) #61613 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:52 pm Subject: psychology of spiritual movements matheesha333 Hello Everyone, Came across a fascinating article on spiritual movements. Any comments? with metta Matheesha ------------------------------------------- ON THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SPIRITUAL MOVEMENTS Introduction: Hello, For fifty years I have been in contact with spiritual movements, or read up on them. I have been interested particularly in their influence on its members, who I have followed now for a considerable number of years all over the world. I have been struck by the fact that developments within such groups always seem to follow a similar pattern. When people unite for a special purpose a field of tension seems to arise based on unleashed subconscious drives. Please allow me to share with you some of my observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Psychological group-mechanisms Before introducing the subject I should like to make it clear that it is not meant to belittle members of spiritual movements. I am myself a member of one. That does not mean that we should close our eyes to the psychological processes that operate in them. If undiscovered they may well gnaw at their foundation, or steer the movement in a way the original founder never wanted to. Human beings, grouped together, are obeying unconsciously drives they are hardly aware of. Yet, associations of people are very necessary to reach a common goal or bring about something in the participants' life. Their combined efforts create strength. Herewith a tentative summary of factors operative in spiritual movements. A psychologist may well do the same for other groups such as stamp-collectors (few people within the commitee have to bear the burden yet are being criticized etc., etc.), sport-associations and political parties. Victor Mansfield has done so for the special guru-disciple relationship. The late Margeret Singer for cults based on health fads, business- training programs, getting-rich quick schemes, on one hand, and on the other groups who use fundamentalist religious interpretations, or ideas and discipline borrowed from Eastern culture to further their causes/courses. In those the following summary of tendencies have become a systematic pattern of exploitation of the individual. I do not wish to deal with those. Instead I wish to turn to well- known spiritual and religious movements many of us may be a member of to mutual benefit and to satisfy our particular spiritual aspirations. If I have offended unintentionally the reader in his genuine conviction, I offer my apologies beforehand. It is my sole intention to direct his attention to pitfalls which may not be applicable at all to his situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The main features Which are the features of psychological influence most common to spiritual movements ? 1. Outlook/aspiration of members 2. Authority of leader/founder 3. Shared belief in scripture, revelation, or sayings. 4. Uniqueness of the movement. 5. Salvation through baptism, initiation, or conversion. 6. Belief in prediction/prophecy 7. Belief versus intellect/Secrets 8. Common practice of a ritual 9. Sacrifice. Financial secrecy, favours to the rich 10. Unquestioning leadership, reprehensible behaviour amongst members. 11. Fear of expulsion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- 1. Type of members. There are many types of members, each with its own motivation. First of all there are the ones who have been moved to do so out of a genuine spiritual aspiration, prepared to sacrifice. Other members may have been searching for a truth behind the dreadful aspects of life around them and an escape therefrom. People who wrestle with a psychological problem seek (unconsciously) a key or solution to it in a particular teaching or discipline. Then there are those that did so out of a feeling of isolation and loneliness. Lack of true companionship may have made them long to be taken up in a fraternity of kindred souls. People will be drawn to a brotherhood whose aims are within their reach of comprehension and nearest to their hearts. A religious background may make them veer towards a sect that accomodates nostalgia, like the Jehova's Witnesses. For younger people it may be an escape from having to enter into a harsh materialistic society. They are in an idealistic life-cycle, prepared to give up their study and career to a worthy cause. Some older people can never make up their minds and wander from one cause to another. Finally there are those who wrestle with a father/mother complex. The childhood's need for such archetypal figure may persist in later life. It is transferred subsequently to the master, who then holds sway over him/her. The weaker the individual's independance, the more will he be tied to the group. Members who understand group-mechanisms, prepared to cope with them in order to direct their attention to the spirit, will benefit most as they are selective in picking up the cream of what is given and taking the rest with a grain of salt. 2. Leader/founder/guru New religious movements arise usually around a father/mother figure who has gained authority after receiving a special revelation, communication, truth or insight. His charisma will vouchsafe loyal followers, even if his lifestyle may give rise to severe doubts to some. He may boost his prestige by claiming to follow the footsteps of a an esteemed spiritual teacher, represent an esoteric tradition, be of noble descent, or channel the wisdom of a great mind. (Eckankar's Paul Twitchell is the last in the lineage of 970 "Eckmasters") He/she represents an archetype in members' subconscious minds. That of a wise father, or mother. As such he/she will have a compelling influence on followers who project their father/mother complex on him/her. Alternatively women may fall in love with the leader, worship him, exert themselves to cater after his wishes and whims. They will try to stay in his viscinity, make themselves indispensable and slowly take control of the movement. Jealousy amongst them will make things even worse and split the ranks. The psychological make-up of a guru may be generalized as follows: Difficult youth. Self-chosen isolation at childhood. Introvert. Therefore not used to share inner life with friends. Narcissistically absorbed in inner mental processes. Undergone a traumatic experience. Authoritarian attitude. Élitist and anti-democratic. Attracting disciples rather than friends on account of the fact that they never learnt to exchange thoughts in childhood. Jeffrey Masson (see below) has this to say about gurus: Every guru claims to know something you cannot know by yourself or through ordinary channels. All gurus promise access to a hidden reality if only you will follow their teaching, accept their authority, hand your life over to them. Certain questions are off limits. There are things you cannot know about the guru and the guru's personal life. Every doubt about the guru is a reflection of your own unworthiness, or the influence of an external evil force. The more obscure the action of the guru, the more likely it is to be right, to be cherished. Ultimately you cannot admire the guru, you must worship him. You must obey him, you must humble yourself, for the greater he is, the less you are - until you reach the inner circle and can start abusing other people the way your guru abused you. All this is in the very nature of being a guru. Sub-conscious drive Nature seems to instill in a person, faced with a mission, great task, or challenge, a feeling of superiority, unsurmountable optimism, and enormous self-esteem, bordering on an inflated ego, to accomplish what is needed. This drive is reminiscent of the reckless impetus of the adolescent. Having reached maturity a person may feel "chosen" - impelled to forge ahead with vigor and inspire others. Undaunted in the face of obstacles and criticism, it is as if a cloak of invulnerability is laid on his/her shoulders. Similarly an artist may be driven by a compulsion to express an inner content. He will be prepared to sacrifice everything to give way to his creative impulse. Fortunately his sacrifice does not involve more than the people immediately around him. Not so with the leader. The number of his followers may grow to considerable proportions. Nature is not concerned whether his sense of superiority has any real foundation. The inflated ego is more or less instinctively driven towards a goal. Although attaining heights no one would have thought conceivable of that person, when the hour of truth has come events may prove that he has overreached himself, disregarded good advice, or lost complete sense of reality. The result may be either catastrophe, or the uncritical followers may be saddled up with a heritage built on quicksand - on a flight of fancy without actual foundation. This applies to many fields of human endeavour (Hitler), but specially in the treacherous domain of the spirit. Discipline - nausea Gurdjieff The teacher may come to the conclusion that unless his followers change fundamentally - undergo a catharsis, or transformation - they will never be able to move forward. He/she regards them as being "asleep" (Jesus, Gurdjieff). Unless drastic measures are employed they will not wake up. To jolt them out of their complacency great sacrifices are demanded. Jesus asked a rich young man to give up all his worldly possessions (S.Matthew 19:21) before following him. Masters in Zen Buddhism, or Gurdjieff, made novices undergo a harsh regime in order to crack open and attain a different state of mind. This I can have no quarrel with, if it is done against a background of compassion. If the unselfish motive disappears, or commercial considerations become dominant, the harsh discipline may become morbid and degrading. Having lost his dedication the teacher may become nauseated by the mentality and sheepishness of his followers, and in cases derive a sadistic delight in tormenting them. In recent years reports are brought out about sexual violation of members by guru's, leaders and....bishops! Another example of authority being abused. The path of a guru is like that of a razor's edge. He may so easily succumb to the temptation of exploiting the power he has attained over his followers. Financial irresponsibility, abuse of followers, reprehensible sexual behaviour......... mass suicide, it is all within his reach once he has overstepped boundaries. Legacy During his lifetime the leader will act as a moderator and steer the movement. He will re-interprete his teachings as he sees fit from the responses he receives. The death of the founder marks a turning point. His teachings will become inflexible, as no one dares to temper with them as he did himself. The élan disappears, rigidity takes over, unless another figure arises that leads the movement in a different direction, for better or for worse (St.Paul). 3. Doctrine/teaching The more secret(ive) the leader's sayings the better. Pronouncements are characterized by great certainty and authority as if it were the word of God. In some cases it is presented as such. By his special way of delivery and presentation it may escape the audience that similar wisdom may be found in any book on spirituality nowadays found in the bookshop around the corner. Whether the guru bases his wise words on actual experience or on hearsay is difficult to ascertain. In general it may be said that the more mystifying his teachings the stronger their appeal. After all it is beyond reason and should appeal only to the heart. An exception should be made for true mystical literature based on inner experience which can hardly be expected to appeal to the intellect, but be appreciated intuitively, especially by those who had similar experiences. Group-speak Members may adopt fresh meanings to words, talk to each other in a jargon that the outsider can hardly follow (group-speak). The result being an inability to relate in speech, or explain new concepts to the outsider (Fourth Way). (This may be best understood in other fields: help-programs of software, pop-up windows, warning-messages, not to speak of manuals for installing hardware, drawn up by boffins, are a nightmare to most users!) Another characteristic is to lift out of context one aspect of religious truth and make it absolute. Such key truth will overshadow all other aspects of faith. It may be: prophecy, as we have seen with Jehova's Witnesses, Adventists and countless sects; baptism at an adult age, important to Baptists; charity in the case of the Salvation Army (but who could blame them for this?); channeling in New Age/Spiritualistic movements, etc. When this occurs other significant facets of faith are pushed to the background. Such partial truths are often heralded as the result of a search for knowledge. The motto "Knowledge is power" is used to suggest that the statements are objective, scientific, or historical facts. Actually they cannot stand the touchstone of the merest critical scrutiny. Authorities may be paraded to back-up such claims. They have either never been heard of, cannot be considered impartial, or their pronouncements have been lifted out of context. The discussion about the veracity of evolution is full of such red herrings. 4. Uniqueness of the movement Movements will extol usually their superiority over others. After all there should be a strong reason to select that particular group. Some present themselves as being the sole way towards salvation, being God's chosen people. Others make a promise of a benefit that is only reserved for members of that sect. To avert attention some pride themselves of not having a teaching, or for their openness and democratic rules. In short new movements will advance a variety of reasons for their uniqueness. Herewith a few: Never before has mankind been offered this discipline/interpretation/insight of our leader. Do not pour new wine in old bottles. God's, or a celestial, new message to mankind for this particular time. Impending disaster (pollution, atomic explosion) calls for drastic measures. Salvation only reserved for faithful members. Fresh interpretation of holy book thanks to insight/revelation of founder. Esoteric tradition, once accessible to adepts only, now revealed. New channel for teachings of esoteric lodge/brotherhood New doctrine/insight based on latest scientific discoveries, reveals truth. Only those following this particular work on self, discipline, or belief, will reach eternity, be released from earth's satanic attraction, cycle of rebirths, etc. Preparatory group to make way for the coming of the new messiah/world- teacher/avatar Noteworthy is the vehemency with which groups stress differences between each other. The closer movements share an outlook the more virulent the attacks on their rivals become, seemingly more than on groups which follow a completely different belief. Eric Hoffer writes in his 'The True Believer': "true believers of various hues ....view each other with mortal hatred and are ready to fly at each other's throat..." This manifests itself specially when groups split. In Christianity one could not steep low enough to attack other followers of Christ, who held a slightly different opinion. It resulted in persecution of heretics, burning of early Christian literature, and disastrous wars. Despite their peaceful appearance relatively new spiritual movements like Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, etc., following splits, exert themselves in accusations against former comrades. Attacks against belief in paranormal phenomena, for instance by CSICOP, are reminiscent of the zeal of a Christian crusade, be it that they have their roots in humanism and its desperately clinging to a rationalistic/materialistic outlook on life current at the beginning of this century. Consequently the groups of these 'evangelists of rational enlightenment' have similar behavioural patterns as sects. 5. Probation and conversion Certain sects are only too eager to accept individuals. They may have high entrance fees. Or their members are swayed by zeal to convert. Many movements will put up a barrier by means of an initiation to test the applicant's fitness to become part of the group. Henceforth they will play an important pioneer-part in the foretold future. Having reached such coveted stage members will not fail to follow what they are being told for fear of expulsion. The new member may undergo a conversion, gaining a completely new insight in the meaning of life, see it in a way the sect does. His previous life with all its relationships has become meaningless. He may have turned himself inside out by a confession of his previous "sins". His conversion is marked by a feeling of peace, happiness and transcendence. 6. Failure of predictions Ezechiel prophesies Common belief in a prophecy will be a strong binding force. One of the principal attractions of the first Christian sects was that they offered salvation from a threatening disaster. That being the end of the world. Only the baptized would await a glorious future. Sects like the Jehova's Witnesses have taken over this succesful formula. Christians have had to come up with all sorts of arguments to explain away the unfulfilled prediction of their founder regarding the end of the world: "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished." (S.Matthew 24:34). One of the lame excuses being that this prediction concerns the fall of Jersusalem only. However, all prophecies in the New Testament in this respect suggest that the impending doom was to be expected in their life-time. Jehova's Witnesses have taken the risk of being more specific in their predictions. Older members, who built their faith on them, have had the humiliating experience of having had to explain away various times in their lifetime the failure of the outcome of their forewarnings. But predictions are not limited to the religious faiths. The New Age movements use this shared belief in portents as well. For more than fifty years an imminent landing of UFO's has been predicted. Various cults claimed in vain to be their first contactees. In other movements the second coming of Christ was a main feature (Benjamin Creme). In Theosophy a Messenger was expected from 1975 onward. Edgar Cayce The uncritical believers in Edgar Cayce's trance sayings put weight on his predictions of cataclysms (photo Edgar Cayce). Nostradamus' (photo) obscure astrological foresayings have captured the minds of people for centuries. Each time his verses were interpreted again to suit the circumstances. In hindsight some of his quatrains seem to have relevance to the catastrophe of the destroyed World Trade Center. Quatrains I, 87 - IX, 92 and X, 59 may refer to skyscrapers in New York involved in a terrible explosion. Sociologists have observed that, failure of prediction results in quite the opposite effect on believers. Contrary to what one would expect it may cause a rally amongst members. Failure is blamed on a misunderstanding, or a faux pas by members. To counteract ridicule they tend to stick together more than ever. Nostradamus Of course there is a limit. When predictions fail to materialize three times in a row members are bound to stop, reflect and draw conclusions. The shattering of such false hopes comes as a severe blow and may mark the beginning of the end of a movement. One wonders in this respect how many members of the People Forever International sect promoting physical immortality for its followers would have to die before their groups would break up in disappointment. (Since I wrote this six years ago I have been informed that indeed members have died and the movement broke up in 1998!) Yet, we see from the Jehova's Witnesses that skilful manoeuvring may off-set unfulfilled prophecies. To what extremes such believes can lead shows the mass suicidal action of the Heaven's Gate sect and recently in Uganda. Such tragic endings are the result of various contributing factors, which are beyond the scope of this article. 7. Belief versus intellect/Secrets Often disciplines followed in spiritual movements have the effect of a lowering of the threshold to the unconscious mind. Suggestion will begin to play an important part. Precepts are being experienced as the truth, sacrosanct and sure. There is no element of doubt anymore about assumptions and speculation, although actually they lack any factual foundation. Absolute belief that the Bible is God's word is the cornerstone of most orthodox Christian sects. Intellectual analysis of faith is tentamount to heresy. The ideal breeding ground for convictions are mass-gatherings. During congresses members are stirred up to an euphoria, the effect of which may linger on for weeks. This is the precise period of time for leaders, or committees, to announce fresh sectarian measures, postulate incredible notions/prophecies, call for further sacrifices, etc. etc. It will all be accepted unquestioningly. Only at a later date, when the euphoria has worn off, will one start to wonder about what was decided. Secrets Spiritual movements often hide a corpse in their closet. It may be a part of the history of the movement, details about the hidden life of the leader, or a once revered figure. Things may have been written by them one does not like to be reminded of. A fight, quarrel, full of vehemence and hatred, may have led to a split. There are so many examples that a long list could be drawn up of the many concealed secrets of spiritual groups. Whereas in most movements the works of the leader are almost known by heart, Jehova's Witnesses hardly know of the existence of the seven volumes of writings Studies in the Scriptures of their founder Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916). Some of his opinions are such cause of embarrassment that they are not deemed worth reading nowadays. Eventually a renegate member will reveal such secrets in writing. Frantic denials and counter accusations by those in charge presently will follow almost automatically. These are usually accepted in gratitude by devotees, who cannot get over the shock of such revelations. 8. Common practice, work and ritual Communal singing, ritual and (incomprehensible) practices (Freemasonry) are strong binding factors. Others are a special food regime, the change of name, or a common aversion. Joint work for the benefit of the group gives the feeling of a common endeavour and unites the participants. So does proselytization in the streets, menial work of construction and renovation of premises. There is a thin line between true participation and exploitation, however. Dubious was the practice, common in the seventies, to incite members to criticize one of them to an extent that he/she would break down under the weight of often absurd allegations and insults, resulting in a brainwash effect. 9. Sacrifices, financial secrecy, favours to the rich. Finances are always a ticklish matter. Human groups always wish to grow. Finances are important. Accountability is often not considered appropriate. Danger arises that members of the inner circle become lax in expenditure of members' contributions. Ambitious schemes call for a constant need for funding. This is the ideal breeding ground for favours to wealthy members. Those who contribute generously stand more chance to be taken in confidence and admitted to the inner circles. Often, as a proof of loyalty, extraordinary sums of money are demanded. Degrees of initiation may be dependent on one's years of loyalty to the group. In Eckankar up to 8 degrees are given. However, if one fails to pay membership's fees for some time degrees of initiation may be stripped off again. Next to financial contributions members will often be expected to offer services to the group. However, if they also have to work for practically free in commercial enterprises it becomes dubious. Movements that gather wealth at the expense of their members are questionable. Seldom or never requests for return of contributions/investments are honoured. 10. Unquestioning leadership, reprehensible behaviour amongst members Man in a herd may not show the best side of his nature. Unconscious drives may reign his behaviour. This is applicable especially in circumstances that man strives for the spiritual. He may tend to show split-personality behaviour. On one hand the spiritual personality which is supposed to have come to terms with his animal nature. It is wise, friendly and compassionate on the outside. In the shadows lurks the personality that has been forced into the background, still ridden with all the expulsed human frailties. In moments of weakness it will see its chance to play hideous tricks. It will do so without being noticed by the person involved. The result being: uncharitable behaviour, envy, malicious gossip, hypocrisy, harsh words, insensitivity, unfounded criticism and even worse, not expected from such charismatic figure. It is one of the main reasons for people leaving a particular group in great disappointment. It is not often realized that, like other human groups, spiritual movements behave like organisms. Group-psychological processes manifest which are sometimes not unlike those in primitive societies. There is the pecking order, the alpha members, and also the group- instinct directed against similar groups. Aggression goes unnoticed and is tolerated when an acceptable common goal is provided. For instance hostility against an individual outside the group, or a critical member inside. This has the effect of strengthening ties within the group like in the animal world. If leadership loses contact with its members it will have to exert greater discipline. Deviating opinions cannot be tolerated anymore. Persons who hold them are seen as traitors. Acting against them, preferably in secret, is the only way out for the leadership to avert this danger. Members may disappear suddenly without the reasons becoming known, much to the surprise of those left behind. For such machinations in Theosophy read Emily Lutyens: "Candles in the Sun". Spiritual newsgroups on Internet provide illustration of (un)concious nastiness being ventilated under the veil of anonimity. Messages are often rife with diatribe, personal attacks and misunderstanding. Many of such contributors have no interest at all in the matters discussed. Yet even in closed newsgroups, only open to subscribers, complaints about the tone of communications are being aired. 11. Fear of exclusion The stronger members are tied to a group, the more the fear of exclusion lurks. They may have invested their life's savings in the work (Scientology), paid a percentage of their income, failed to conclude their study, or make a career, or sacrificed a succesful one. In many cases a member will have alienated himself from family and friends. He has been told to cut ties with the past. (In the Attleboro cult followers are advised to burn photographs that remind them of bygone days). No wonder his or her sudden conversion, accompanied by fanatism and urge to proselytize, has shied away former friends and relatives. There is no way left but to seek comfort and understanding with members of the spiritual group. Hare Krishna devotees Isolation is sometimes intentionally sought. Formerly, in the Bhagavan Shri Rajneesh movement, members went about in red/orange dresses and wore mala's with a photo of their master, so setting themselves aside from the mundane world. The Hare Krishna movement goes even further. Groups of members go out into the streets in their oriental dresses for song and dance routines. However, in most movements the alienation is far more subtle and the natural outcome of an adverse attitude towards the materialism of society. The true nature of the so-called friendships within the group will only be revealed after a devotee has left the fold. Members have seen this happen, but did not give it a thought at the time, because it happened to someone else. But when they undergo the same fate themselves they will feel the humiliation of not being greeted anymore, marriage gone - even not being recognized by one's own children anymore. The outcast feels thrown in an abyss. He is cut off from social contacts, his life in pieces. The magnitude of this desperate experience should not be under- estimated. The renegade will feel deep shame. He may have confessed in the group intimate secrets, which are now being ridiculed by his former so-called friends. The expulsee, deeply hurt, may become embittered and even enter into a suicidal mental state. Those readers who have been a member of a movement may recognize some of the above psychological mechanisms. The first reaction of non- members may be to vow never to enter a group. Let us bear in mind, however, that it should be considered a challenge to face these obstacles for the benefit that may result from association with kindred spirits. A prerequisite is that these conditions are being noticed, looked in the eye, and not denied. The closer people live together, the more group-tensions will build up. Even in reputable circles as Freudian psycho-analytical associations they occur. Few communes are granted a long life as a result of one or more of the pitfalls summarized above. Headquarters, contrary to expectations, are known to be hotbeds of gossip, mutual repulsion and cynism. So, do not be disheartened and join a group of your liking. After all people who marry also see wrecked marriages all around them, yet go ahead focussing on a happy union in mutual trust, without regard to the outcome. Involvement with other people will lead to personal growth if the consequences are anticipated. The more one stands on one's own feet the more benefit will arise from cooperating with others. It should be borne in mind that the saying "It is better to give, than to receive" is not merely a moral precept. (Read my precepts for living) Please remember that there are hundreds of movements and that it has not been my intention to summarize them all, or to level any form of criticism at one of them. Indicating the psychological mechanisms operative in some, or all of them, has been my main theme. On a separate page I have gone into the mysterious presence- phenomenon arising between people who meet in harmony. © Michael Rogge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Literature: Barker, Eileen: New religious movements (1993) Beit-Hallahmi, B. (1997). Illustrated encyclopedia of active new religions. New York: Rosen. (Describes 1200 active new religious movements) Brown, Rupert: Group processes (1988) Conway, Flo /Siegelman, Jim: Snapping (1978) Downing, Michael: Shoes Outside the Door: Desire, Devotion, and Excess at San Francisco Zen Center (2002) Festinger, Riecken, Schachter: When Prophecy Fails (1955) Hassan, Steve: Combatting Cult Mind Control (1988) Hassan, Steve: Empowering People To Think For Themselves (2000) Hoffer, Eric: The true believer (1951) Jung, C.G.: The psychology of the unconscious (1943/53) Koestler, Arthur: The lotus and the robot (1960) Kramer,Joel / Alstad, Diana: The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power (1993) Masson, Jeffrey: My father's guru. (Paul Brunton) (1993) Matthews, Ronald: English Messiahs. Studies of six English religious pretenders (1936) Newsweek: The strange world of Cults (1/16/84) Newsweek: 'Follow Me', America's mass suicide: UFO's, comets and cults (April 7, 1997) Peck, M.Scott: The different drum (1993) Pietrangelo Jr., J.J.: Lambs to Slaughter: My Fourteen Years with Elizabeth Clare Prophet and Church Universal Triumphant (1995) Rawlinson, Andrew: The book of enlightened masters (1997) Rogerson, Alan: Millions now living will never die (1969) Singer, Margaret Thaler: Cults in our midst (1995) Storr, Anthony: Feet of Clay. A study of Gurus (1996) Thouless, Robert H.: Straight and crooked thinking (1958) Washington, P.: Madame Blavatsky's Baboon (1995) Wilson, Bryan: The noble savages.(Charismatic leadership) (1975) Zweig, Conny & Abrams, Jeremiah: The hidden power of the dark side of human nature (1991) Links: Ontario Consultants on religious tolerance Cult awareness & Information Centre Directory Cesnur. Centre for studies on New Religions Cults Pseudo-Identity ...in victims of ... Cults Guru disciple relationship The Trickster and the Paranormal Psychological and Recovery Issues related to Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups Adherents.com's comprehensive list of religious movements Secret societies and cults (links) Review Pietrangelo's: 'Lambs to slaughter" (see under Literature) Watchers of the Watch Tower World Rado Vleugel's Watchtower Information Service Did Joseph Smith invent the Book of Mormon? Peter Koenig's research into the psycho-sociological background of the modern society Ordo Templi Orientis Sathya Shree Sai Baba: critical views CSICOP and the Skeptics Exit & Support Network links Information about Cults and Psychological Manipulation Sarlo's Guru rating Service S. Vaknin: Collective Narcissism Die Psychologie C.G.Jungs Characteristics of Cults (Rick A. Ross Institute) New Religions - Cons and Pros Islam: Myth versus enlightenment Do cults produce mental disorders? Created August 1996. Last update: 2 July 2006 1) #61614 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a friend's question gazita2002 Hello Charles and other Dhamma friends, thank you and all the other kind friends who wrote wonderful comments to my friends question. I have forwarded all of them onto her, and will paste her reply back to dsg, when I receive one. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #61615 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:30 pm Subject: Re: K. Sujin on "No 'Tryng'" gazita2002 Hello James, thanx for this. I can sort of understand what you are saying here. However, I am not a meditator and therefore dont feel confident to comment too much on this style. In fact, my only comment is that 'self' or the sense of self is very very subtle and I think tends to creep in wherever and whenever, as wrong view about self has not yet been eradicated, is not eradicated until sotapattimagga is reached. That is, stage of sotapanna. thanx for the opportunity for some active discussion, on my part. I read dsg quite often but dont post very much. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > I'm going to address this issue from another angle. There is a > Taoist principle called "wu-wei", which means doing without doing. > I believe that Buddhist meditation practice should follow the > principle of wu wei. You see, there can be doing with doing (acting > through ego), not doing with not doing (inaction), and doing without > doing (egoless action/anatta). Of course, egoless action only comes > about through practice. It is only through practice that one is > able to follow the natural way of things (dhamma) and achieve wu > wei. However, it is important that one not think that complete > inaction is wu wei; inaction is inaction and absolutely nothing gets > accomplished. > > How this applies to meditation is that when one begins the practice > there isn't wu wei, there is just action. The person sits on the > pillow, counts the breaths, and keeps track of the progress being > made. The ego is involved in this and the person may have all sorts > of fantasies of becoming enlightened, becoming famous, and saving > the whole universe. But this isn't a big deal and it isn't the > fault of the practice. With time and more practice, and proper > guidance, the person no longer meditates with the goal of > becoming "enlightened and famous"; the person meditates with no goal > in mind at all. This is when meditation becomes wu wei and real > progress can be made. > > Metta, > James > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei > 30) #61616 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/19/06 6:18:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: O.K. But now we have to continue about awareness and understanding > of dhammas that each have their own specific characteristic (sabhaava!). ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that dhammas are distinguishable. Always have. ------------------------------------------ > You spoke about the article of Karunadasa, and here is a sentence I > fell over: that things are artificially dissected. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Actually, Nina, I stumbled over that one as well, for several reasons. One is that I disagree with the assertion. It is important to distinguish dhammas. Not distinguishing what differ is ignorance (i.e., not knowing). Another reason is that distinguishable dhammas are not "artificially" dissected. Telling them apart is part of knowing what is what. It is indeed an error to think that dhammas are independent, self-existent entities, but that does NOT mean they fail to be distinct. They *are* distinct, but inseparable due to relational interconnectedness. ----------------------------------------- > The detailed description of dhammas you find in the Abhidhamma is > done only for one purpose: to understand that dhammas are without a > living soul, that they are not a person. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that the purpose is to teach their impersonality. --------------------------------------- > I may have misunderstood you, but do you mean that citta is reality, > but that citta and cetasikas together are a concept? ----------------------------------------- Howard: A unit/collection/aggregate consisting of citta, cetasikas, and object is, of course, a concept. But the individual experiential realities, including the citta (i.e., the knowing of the object), are paramattha dhammas, not concepts. --------------------------------------- > You often stress that they are interdependent and that is right. > There is no citta without cetasikas and no cetasikas without citta. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. They are interdependent but distinguishable. ------------------------------------- > Citta rooted in lobha appears all the time in daily life, and we do > not have to name lobha as such, its characteristic appears. It is > accompanied by feeling. Feeling may be predominant and then its > characteristic appears. I think we should not try to find out whether > citta or cetasika is predominant and object of awareness, that is > thinking. ------------------------------------ Howard: Finding out something need not be thinking. It may well be "looking" and "seeing". I don't think it is ever good to take the point of view that one should not try to find out the facts. Blinders are useful only for horses. -------------------------------------- > What you render of Karunadasa seems to me so many definitions, it > seems so complicated. so much thinking involved, but that is my > personal impression. --------------------------------------- Howard: And that is my impression of Abhidhamma, Nina! ;-) To each according to his taste (or, as you would surely prefer to say, accumulations). -------------------------------------- > Nina. > ================== With metta, Howard 22) #61617 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:38 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 28 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What the Buddha told the monks may sound crude to us, but it is > reality. We find it difficult to accept life as it really is: birth, > old age, sickness and death. We cannot bear to think of our own body > or the body of someone who is dear to us as being a corpse. We accept > being born, but we find it difficult to accept the consequences of > birth, which are old age, sickness and death. We wish to ignore the > impermanence of all conditioned things. I think that what you have to say here is very important for us all to reflect on. You suggest that we ignore the impermanence of all conditioned things, and I would agree with that, but there is also another factor in play here which is important to consider: PRIDE! As Soma Thera explains it: "The uninstructed worldly-minded man sees others dying around him but through intoxication with the pride of life he acts as if he were immortal. He sees the victims of disease around him but due to intoxication with the pride of health he acts as if he were immune from disease. Enjoying the first flush of life's springtime, he sees many an old man in the last stages of decrepitude but owing to his pride of youth, through becoming intoxicated with it, he acts as if he may never grow old. And he sees many people losing their wealth and becoming paupers suddenly, but through his being intoxicated with the pride of power or position, he does not pity them, does not sympathize with them, and does not think that he too might be overtaken by similar misfortune. Thus intoxicated by these, and many other intoxicants, he behaves like a man beside himself, heedless of right and wrong, heedless of this world and the world beyond, enjoying fleeting pleasures, like a crab in a cooking pot before the water heats up. Even in his dreams he does not suspect that evil might befall him, but when he actually does, he loses control of himself, weeps, and bewails his lot." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/bl079.html Metta, James 3) #61618 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:52 pm Subject: Re: On Awareness, by Rob K. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Rob K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > this is taken from Rob K's forum, a post he wrote before. > < Let me give some scenarios as rough (very rough) illustrations: > I'll use "I" a lot just to make it conversational- but remember no > "I" in reality. > > 1. I concentrate on seeing, trying to separate the colour(rupa) from > the seeing (nama) - but with a citta rooted in lobha of some degree > that is hoping to really understand. (the wrong way) > > 2. I concentrate on seeing but with a citta rooted in lobha and > ditthi - I think I can control sati, samadhi and the other cetasikas > - (wrong again). > > 3. I do nothing and just trust that one day sati and panna will arise > out of the blue. (the opposite extreme). > > 4. I study in a very detached way colour or seeing or any other > dhamma that is predominant at any door but without any hope for > result or feeling that I can bring up sati. I realise that sati > arises very seldom and that even this apparently detached study is > still 99.99999% done with cittas rooted in lobha and moha. Is there any support for these theories in the Buddha's teachings? All of these scenarios are the speculations of an uninstructed worldling. Why should anyone listen to it? Metta, James 2) #61619 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, Howard, > I think the article on paññatti by Karunadasa is good, that was on > Rob K's forum, and I quoted it for Howard. James: So you agree with everything in that article? Could you link it to me; I'm not familiar with Rob K's forum. > See, of concept it cannot be said that it arises and falls away. > Therefore I hold it that citta and accompanying cetasikas are not a > concept. They arise and fall away. See below. James: Thanks for the quote, and I see what you are saying, but I would like to read the entire article. > But what Howard recently quoted, as I said, it seems very theoretical > to me. James: I'm puzzled as to why you would say this since you are also an Abhidhamma scholar and write theoretically everyday. > Nina. Metta, James 11) #61620 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:54 pm Subject: Re: K. Sujin on "No 'Tryng'" buddhatrue Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello James, > > thanx for this. I can sort of understand what you are saying here. > However, I am not a meditator and therefore dont feel confident to > comment too much on this style. James: That's okay. I hope that one day you will see the value of meditation and become a "meditator". :-) > > In fact, my only comment is that 'self' or the sense of self is > very very subtle and I think tends to creep in wherever and > whenever, as wrong view about self has not yet been eradicated, is > not eradicated until sotapattimagga is reached. That is, stage of > sotapanna. James: You are mixing together 'sense of self' and 'view of self' (and this is a very important distinction). View of self is eradicated at sotapanna, but sense of self continues until arahanthood: "In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. [See § 30.] But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html > > thanx for the opportunity for some active discussion, on my part. I > read dsg quite often but dont post very much. James: Well, then I'm glad to have gotten you out of the shadows. :-) > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita Metta, James #61622 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > You spoke about the article of Karunadasa, and here is a sentence I > > fell over: > that things are artificially dissected. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Actually, Nina, I stumbled over that one as well, for several reasons. > One is that I disagree with the assertion. I don't understand why either one of you would have a problem with Karunadasa's sentence: : After all, the Buddha also created an artifical dissection when he taught the five khandas, and he did it for the purpose of definition and description. Metta, James 22) #61623 From: Illusion Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:43 pm Subject: E-Dharma University vvhite_illusion http://www.ashokaedu.net/index.htm -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) 1) #61624 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/19/06 10:09:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Nina and Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Nina - > > >>You spoke about the article of Karunadasa, and here is a > sentence I > >>fell over: description > >>that things are artificially dissected. > > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Actually, Nina, I stumbled over that one as well, for > several reasons. > >One is that I disagree with the assertion. > > I don't understand why either one of you would have a problem with > Karunadasa's sentence: : and description that things are artificially dissected. > After > all, the Buddha also created an artifical dissection when he taught > the five khandas, and he did it for the purpose of definition and > description. ---------------------------------- Howard: What in the world is artificial about that dissection? Are any two of these five aggregates the same or indistinguishable or even equivalent. And the reason he taught the five aggregates was definitely to disabuse us of the notion of self. I'm perplexed by you on this one, James. :-) --------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > > ================ With metta, Howard 22) #61625 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. egberdina Hi James, Howard, Nina, There's a post to KenH gestating away, I expect it to be born sometime tonight :-) But in the meantime.... On 20/07/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > > >Howard: > > > Actually, Nina, I stumbled over that one as well, for > > several reasons. > > >One is that I disagree with the assertion. > > > > I don't understand why either one of you would have a problem with > > Karunadasa's sentence: : > and description that things are artificially dissected. > After > > all, the Buddha also created an artifical dissection when he taught > > the five khandas, and he did it for the purpose of definition and > > description. > > > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > What in the world is artificial about that dissection? Are any two of > these five aggregates the same or indistinguishable or even equivalent. And > the reason he taught the five aggregates was definitely to disabuse us of the > notion of self. I'm perplexed by you on this one, James. :-) > --------------------------------- Sorry to butt in, James. It seemed like a good way to spend my 5 minute lunch break :-) Like James, I stumbled over Howard and Nina stumbling over Karunadasa's line. The dissection is artificial because it arises through action, the act of dissecting. Without a distinguishing act, there is no distinction. Kind Regards Herman 22) #61626 From: "anton p. baron" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:20 pm Subject: Hello... antonbaron Hello, My name is Anton Baron. I was born in Poland but for the last 15 years I have lived in Paraguay where I have been teaching Methodology of Investigation and I have writen some books. I studied theology in my native country in the Catholical tradition and then I explored other Christian ways, but lately I became agnostic without any spiritual tradition. About two years ago I started to be interested in Buddhism and via learning and Internet searching I have found the Theravada tradition where I was specially struck by Ajachn Chahn`s writings. Later I undertook the on-line Meditation Course from The Vipassana Fellowship where I am still part of the Parisa group. My contacts with other meditators are exclusively via Internet because In Paraguay I can't find Thevarada groups. This group I found through Bhikkhu Bodhi´s article published in The BuddhaSaana web site and I´m very happy to share with you. With metta 29) #61627 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: object and feeling ken_aitch Hi Howard ---------------- H: > What is consciousness if not an event, an activity, a happening? I can't imagine. ---------------- To my mind, 'event' (activity, happening) includes a carnival, a horse race, a wedding or maybe just the lifting up of a coffee cup. Consciousness, on the other hand, is a conditioned dhamma. It is very different from an event. -------------------- <. . .> H: > Sati spoke of consciousness being reborn, and the Buddha corrected him. You probably think that is only because "a" consciousness arises and ceases immediately (or with very short duration), the followed by a new consciousness, and each of these is a separate "thing that knows". I do not think that is the reason. The fact of awareness (vi~n~nana) not lasting and of each occurrence of being aware quite new certainly is part of it. But another part of it is that there are no "things that know at all". They would be knowers!! ----------------------------------- That's not how I remember the sutta. I'm pretty sure Sati's fault was purely in seeing citta as something that carried over. There was/is no problem with saying that citta experienced an object. ------------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > I think there is a great danger in conceiving of a plurality of little selves, of little agents that act. It is an atta-view. ------------------------------------------- I read the Karunadasa article - jargon filled and unnecessarily heavy going though it was. If I understood correctly, his objection to 'plurality' stemmed from the Mahayana doctrine of non-duality. From the very little I know about non-duality, I gather it objects (as you do) to dhammas being regarded as doers or performers of functions. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote an article on how non-duality pertained (or did not pertain) to Theravada. (Christine has posted it here from time to time.) If I remember correctly, BB thinks it is a non-issue. He says in Theravada there is no problem with saying cetana wills, sanna remembers, panna understands, etc. Ken H 33) #61628 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >Dear Matheesha, Jon, and Howard, > >What think you all of this: > >"The term 'clear comprehension' [sampaja~n~na] should be understood to >mean that to the clarity of bare mindfulness is added the full >comprehension of purpose and of actuality, internal and external, or, >in other words: Clear comprehension is right knowledge (naa.na) or >wisdom (pa~n~na), based on right attentiveness (sati)," (The Heart of >Buddhist Meditation, Nyanaponika Thera, p. 46). > Thanks for bringing up the quote. I agree with the characterisation of clear comprehension as wisdom, but I am wary about the mention of 'bare mindfulness' if that is meant as a reference to a form of 'practice', since I don't think there is such a thing as 'bare mindfulness' where the object of the mindfulness is a dhamma. To my understanding, such mindfulness can only occur if it is accompanied by wisdom also. Jon >How representative is this of the way things are? Is this saying what >Matheesha notes below? > >M: "...satipattana gives rise to panna ,as without panna there is >none of the above. But I can see how you could take it to mean that >clear comprehension is panna in itself." > >It seems as if Matheesha is in agreement, in a way, with Nyanaponika, >who seems to suggest that clear comprehension is a complex consisting >of pa~n~na and sati. > >M: "... It speaks of how mindfulness 'steady without lapse' leads to >development of panna. So clear comprehension seems more about >intelligent awareness, a curious awareness, rather than actually >applying book knowledge to what is going on..." > >What do you think? > >With loving kindness, > >Scott. > 88) #61629 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >M: I would say that all the phrase: "This is the one way, monks, for >the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and >lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for >reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the >four foundations of mindfulness" ..is sufficient in itself to say >that satipattana gives rise to panna ,as without panna there is none >of the above. But I can see how you could take it to mean that clear >comprehension is panna in itself. > Yes. It seems the Pali term 'sampajano', which is glossed as 'sampaja~n~na', is connected with the term 'pa~n~na'. >So then we need to look at where >it does talk of panna more clearly: > >"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as >to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? > >"[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & >of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & >distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his >mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is >steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening >becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the >culmination of its development. > >"[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes >to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains >mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a >comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of >qualities as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, >and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > >http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.013.than.h\ tml > >M: I think the Ananda sutta above is delightful. It speaks of how >mindfulness 'steady without lapse' leads to development of panna. > Yes, a wonderful passage. I read this sutta as being about bringing the enlightenment qualities to their culmination. That is to say, it describes how mindfulness that is already well developed - the mindfulness of a person who is 'ardent, alert [clearly comprehending] and mindful' - becomes developed to the point of enlightenment as 'a factor for Awakening'. When you think of it for a moment, if the object of the mindfulness is a presently arising dhamma, then panna must be present (since dhammas cannot be directly known other than by panna). There is no sense to me in this sutta of a 2-step development: first mindfulness, then later insight. >"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... >&... out sensitive to the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... >out satisfying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out >steadying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out >releasing the mind: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the >mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed >& distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is >mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and >no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused >on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting >aside greed & distress with reference to the world. > >M: Here is another wonderful passage from the same sutta linking >greed and distress, confused mindfulness and lack of being focused. >When there is no focus, caught up in the matters of the world (ie- >giving rise to hindrences and associated conceptual thinking) there >is no mindfulness. > This sutta, like the anapanasati sutta and the anapanasati passage in the body section of the Satipatthana Sutta, is about the development of insight by a monk who has attained or is capable of attaining jhana with in-and-out breathing as object. But again the emphasis is on the state of being 'ardent, alert [clearly comprehending] and mindful'. At such moments a person is 'focussed'. Jon 88) #61630 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > I don't contenance unobserved rupas. If they existed, no one would >know it. Consider the aroma of some spicey dish that is pleasant to me, and >consider at another time the objectively "same" aroma, but unpleasant to me. I say >they are two different olfactory rupas in my mindstraem, the first pleasant >and the second unpleasant. Likewise, if you and I both smelled "the same" aroma >at a given time, they are, in fact, not at all the same rupa, thought they >correspond, and your might be pleasant and mine unpleasant. (Oh, and Jon, it just >occurred to me that this is a good example for the virtue of discussing >multiple namarupic streams.) > Yes, perhaps. But we'd better make sure we don't mix 'unobserved rupas' and 'multiple namarupic streams' in the same thread, otherwise we'd go on forever ;-)) Jon BTW, in case you missed my last post on namarupic steams, it's at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61421 33) #61631 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa jonoabb Hi Howard (and Herman) upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Herman) - >... > I have to laugh at myself: I remind myself of a man in an old Jewish >tale repeated in Fiddler on the Roof, an observer of an argument between two >men expressing apparently totally opposite opinions. When the first "contender" >had finished stating his opinion, the man smiled and said "You're right." Then >the second discussant gave his counter-argument, and the observer said "You >know, boychik? You're also right!" Another bystander chimed in then, and asked >"Hey! You said he's right, but then you said the other one is also right! They >can't both be right!" And the observer, turning to the bystander, and with >eyebrows raised, agreed "You're right too!!" ;-)) > ;-)), ;-)) The most obvious explanation for both discussants being right is that they are each talking about different things (in other words, at cross-purposes). I think there's a fair bit of that going on here from time to time (and especially when I'm trying to respond to Herman ;-)) ). > Actually, the Chinese Hua Yen Buddhists (and Japanese Kegon Buddhists) >who take primary sustenance from the Avatamsaka Sutra call that way of seeing >"The round view". It amounts to seeing all sides of an issue (and all aspects >of phenomena). Often that is "enlightening", but sometimes it is paralyzing! >;-)) > In my case, it seems to always be the paralysing kind ;-(( . Jon 16) #61632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 28 nilovg Hi James, thank you for your addiiton about pride. right, I often overlook this. I am old, and I see other elderly people, and compare: he is also old, and that is conceit. As to Rob K's post you wrote: I am an uninstructed worldling and I think these are observations occurring while understanding is in the process of developing. The attachment and ignorance that are likely to arise are real. Nina. Op 20-jul-2006, om 2:38 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I think that what you have to say here is very important for us all to > reflect on. You suggest that we ignore the impermanence of all > conditioned things, and I would agree with that, but there is also > another factor in play here which is important to consider: PRIDE! As > Soma Thera explains it 3) #61633 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa jwromeijn Hallo Jon This summer I hardly sit behind my computer, but i think it's not a problem that there are laps between the messages. You wrote " I think 'left unsaid' was not a wise choice of words on my part ;-)) What I meant was that in a great many suttas the Buddha was addressing people who were ready for enlightenment and the language was at a level that makes it difficult for us to follow. References to khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus, dependent origination, the four noble truths and the like need endless explanation before they become meaningful to us, whereas they were readily understood on a first hearing by many at the time of the Buddha." Joop: I feel something of the idea of 'the decline of buddhasasana' in your remark; and I don't agree with that (Indian, not buddhistic) idea. Of course we are not at home in the brahmanistic indian culture in which the Buddha lived and of which He used the language, similes etc. But that is something else than that it is as such more difficult to understand the Suttas than His audiences did. Jon: "So I stick with my point that the suttas cannot be read without the assistance of explanation from elsewhere." Joop: I agree but the problem is, what is 'elsewhere'? Are commentators, livinf 1500 till 200 years ago the ideal medium to explain the Suttas to us? I need many times explanations, especially from scholars of my own culture who know the (spiritual) culture in which the Buddha lived. Jon: "I'm not quite with you here, but if you'd like to bring up an instance of a commentary that you say does more than commentate on the original I'd be happy to discuss it." Joop: Two ones I have already used in DSG so will not elaborate long, no need to repeat that discussion: - A short remark of the Buddha, only in the Vinaya, that buddhasasana will decline in 500 years when woman can get bikkhuni is changed by Buddhaghosa in 5000 years and made a whole system of it with periods of 1000 years. - The making a cycle of D.O., something the Buddha did not say in any Sutta. This causal chain is made in later centuries, by Boddhaghosa but also in Tibetan buddhism a cycle (that was the topic in discussions with Larry, Ken O and others in another thread.) Cf 'The Wheel of Birth and Death' by Bhikkhu Khantipalo The Wheel Publication No. 147/148/149 "… The History of the Wheel Dependent Arising is explained many times and in many different connections in the Discourses of Lord Buddha, but He has not compared it to a wheel. This simile is found in the Visuddhimagga ("The Path of Purification") and in the other commentarial literature. …" >Jon (a week ago): "By the way, would you agree that individual suttas need to be read in the context of the body of suttas as a whole?" > … Jon (now): "You seem to give clear 'No' and then a clear 'Yes' ;-))." Joop: I can imagine that. I have understood your question better after your discussion with Herman about the same topic. I don't see a Sutta totally isolated, when i read one, for example about D.O. I like to read others ones too to understand better. The problem I have is with the "as a whole", because that is an abstraction, that seems to be something that trancends the individual Sutta. Metta Joop 16) #61634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi James, Howard also answered this. The Buddha taught for the purpose of developing understanding of the khandhas, that is of all physical and mental phenomena, occurring right now. The purpose of his teaching is not definition or intellectual understanding. It is direct understanding that is a factor of the eightfold Path leading to the end of the cycle. Nina. Op 20-jul-2006, om 4:06 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I don't understand why either one of you would have a problem with > Karunadasa's sentence: : and description that things are artificially dissected. > After > all, the Buddha also created an artifical dissection when he taught > the five khandas, and he did it for the purpose of definition and > description. 22) #61635 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn Hallo Jon Glad to discuss aspect of D.O. again, for me it's an important but not yet well understood topic. Especially the relation with Abhidhamma-system is one of the topics of my study now. Joop: (some weeks ago): "… clinging is not the same as desiring because, as you say, sensuous desire is only one of the four objects of clinging." Jon: "I am not quite with you here. We are discussing the link *ta.nhaa* -->*upaadaana*. According to my reading of the texts, each of these Pali terms refers to certain specific dhammas. CMA gives the following information … … Joop: Thanks for this information. It's true that one can not simply say 'craving' or ' 'clinging', both are complex concepts. Joop (some weeks ago):"What have (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and ritual and, (4) personality-belief in common ? Jon: "They are all aspects of wrong view (Pali: miccha ditthi). Wrong view is rooted in lobha." Joop (answering his own question somne weeks ago): "Psychological seen the function of this triad is: anxiety-reduction. So there is the SENSUOUS DESIRE and the ANXIETY-REDUCTION DESIRE" > If you don't mind I will not discuss about the dhamma term 'wrong view' (miccha ditthi). Your remarks did help me in understanding the relation between DO and the Abhidhamma-system. But understanding D.O. is difficult for me, and understanding Abhidhamma-system is difficult. And the mixture of it is too much for me, I cannot handle that. You will be right that (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and ritual and, (4) personality-belief are aspects of 'wrong view', but my question is: Am I in your opinion wrong when I perceive them also as the desire to reduce anxiety? Or don't you like such psychological language? Joop (some weeks ago): "I'm curious what you think of Payutto, especially chapter 5 and the appendix of his study >( www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002-dependent.htm )" Jon: "I haven't read the article. From past experience I doubt that discussion about a third party's views would prove fruitful (there is usually difficulty in agreeing what is actually being said by the other person). However, if you'd like to adopt any passage from the article as reflecting your own view, I'd be very happy to discuss the passage on that basis." Joop: It's a pity you haven't read it but I can imagine your position; I have the same experience with discussing a third party like Buddhaghosa. The main conclusion I made after reading Payutto is: D.O. is explained by the Buddha in a general way, it can be used in three ways (in none of the three is wrong): - as explaining a causal process within a moment - as explaining a causal process within a life - as explaining a causal process within three lifetimes Do you agree with that? Metta 203) #61636 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling egberdina Hi Ken, On 19/07/06, ken_aitch wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > ---------- > <. . .> > > H: > I don't have any BT teachings to quote, but there's a bunch of > > his translations around on the Net. I'm only going from the Sutta, > Ken. Honest :-) > > ---------- > > OK, I'm letting you off this time. :-) > Excellent! :-) ( I remember my once 4 year old rendering that as eccielents) > The teachings I am referring to are any New Age style ideas about > 'every religion ultimately teaching the same thing' 'all roads > eventually leading to the same goal' 'no matter what we call it - > Almighty God, Nirvana, Oneness with the Universe - we'll all be there > together in the end.' > > Do you subscribe to that sort of teaching? Do you see a traveller on > the Path? Does it matter to you that your version of the Dhamma > differs from the original Theravada? I think of subscribing to a teaching, any teaching, as a sell-out of personal responsibility. Of course there are degrees of subscription, but anyone who sees a "faith enterprise" as a coming-to-know-things-as-they-are is seriously deluded. Faith is always guaranteed of finding its object. Ask any faith-driven Muslim, Christian, Buddhist etc , and of course they are all dead right in their conviction. And in total disagreement with each other. Hmmm, need I say more? "Traveller, there is no Path. Paths are made by walking". What profound wisdom, and how curious that a Spanish person could say this. The Buddha must have visited the Iberian Peninsula at some time, it is the only possible explanation. :-) More seriously, the Buddha is seriously spot on in his analysis of action. People are defined by what they do. What folks do defines themselves. So in answer to your question, yes, I do see travellers on paths, all of their own making. That some of these travellers deny that they act is neither here nor there, that is the path they are actively crafting for themselves. Now to your point about being bothered. The basic fallacay in the proposition is that "original Theravada" exists as an absolute, and that you know what that absolute is. This is where the delusion of faith comes in. I realise now that I better split my replies up into a number of posts, because Vick and I are off to Melbourne early in the morning to go and visit my son for a few days. If I don't get any further tonight, this will at least give you something to chew on, but I won't be replying before Tuesday. Anyways, I do appreciate the conversation, Ken. Not only that, I quite like chatting to someone as extreme, but opposite to, as myself. :-) Kind Regards Herman 33) #61637 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello... sarahprocter... Dear Anton, This is a fascinating introduction - there are other members, some who've been quite active, from Brazil and other parts of South American, but none others from Paraguay as I recall (or Poland either). I think that many members will relate to and be interested in your path in this life and I'm sure you'll find yourself very much at home here with your enquiring mind. Please join in any threads or start your own. The entire archives have been backed up and can be searched on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Selected posts from these archives have been saved under topics in 'Useful Posts' in the files section (left side of home page). You can also find a simple Pali glossary in the files too. I'm sure you'll have no trouble getting into stride here. Metta, Sarah p.s Btw, for anyone who hasn't noticed, yahoo recently made a few changes, so now it's easy to read posts on the website either in date and time order or under threads as some people prefer. A couple of people have recently mentioned that they're finding this better. The search function there has also improved. For those who receive mail in their in boxes, I'm told there are improvements for those who receive them in digest form too.) ****** --- "anton p. baron" wrote: > Hello, > My name is Anton Baron. I was born in Poland but for the last 15 years > I have lived in Paraguay where I have been teaching Methodology of > Investigation and I have writen some books. I studied theology in my > native country in the Catholical tradition and then I explored other > Christian ways, but lately I became agnostic without any spiritual > tradition. About two years ago I started to be interested in Buddhism > and via learning and Internet searching I have found the Theravada > tradition where I was specially struck by Ajachn Chahn`s writings. <...> 29) #61638 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Monasticism and running a business? sarahprocter... Dear Matt L, --- Matt Lawson wrote: > Hi- > > I am thinking about ways to run a monastery in today's modern world. > > In general constantly asking for donations seems like unnecessary > stress for the whole Sangha and at the very least the Abbott. When the > original Buddha designed the "rules" there was not insurance, rent, > utility bills, and the list goes on. ..... S: Thanks for your controversial opening post too:-) You certainly did spur some interesting conversation and I was hoping to hear your further responses to it:-)). It's a tricky area and I'm sure you have good intentions. I've been away and have read many posts in a jet-lagged stupour, but I don't think you mentioned where you come from or live now. I'd be interested to hear more. Where is the monastery and where were you ordained? Pls ignore the questions if you've already responded. Do you have any comments on any of the other threads or discussions here? Metta, Sarah ======== #61639 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > With regard to our recent postings, I provide some material > from > > Karunadasa's Dhamma Theory article > > > Thanks for supplying this material from Karunadasa. As I have > written before, I believe that Karunadasa has the correct > interpretation of the Abhidhamma, as opposed to K. Sujin's and > Nina's interpretation which is pluralistic. Pluralism is > incompatible with DO. Honestly, I don't see how anyone could not > see this. I argued the same thing in DSG before I even read > Karunadasa's article (I forgot who first linked it to me; Did you?). .... S: You may be interested to take a look at some of the many detailed discussions there have been over the years on Karunadasa's articles here. If you go to www.dhammastudygroup.org and put 'Karunadasa' in the atomz or freefind search engines, you'll be directed to some of them. (For some reason, the google search engine there isn't working well for now). I believe the quote on 'pariyatti' is from the Dhamma Theory article you've already read (the whole article is on line) and parts like this one can be found in U.P. also under 'Concepts' or 'Concepts vs Realities'. Also, I remember we had a lot of discussion on the Time & Space article. There's a lot of deep material to consider. (One problem I've often had is in following some of his references to some of the more controversial comments....but that may just be me). As for the 'pluralistic' comments - those are new ones here:-) Let's save any 'debates' until we meet and have our pleasant 'non-debate' get together or whatever you wish:-). Metta, Sarah p.s If you'd like me to call the Taiwan embassy to find out times or anything this end, drop me a note. ================= #61640 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling egberdina Hi Ken, Me again. Herman :-) On 19/07/06, ken_aitch wrote: > > > <. . .> > H: > > > I wonder why you use any words other than dhamma at all? My > translation of the above paragraphs into KenSpeak is "dhamma dhamma > dhamma dhamma dhamma dhamma dhamma etc etc" How am I doing? > > --------------- > > Looks good to me, although I'm not keen on the "etc etc" part. :-) > :-) :-) > ------------------- > H: > But precisely because you didn't write that, though you suggest > > that is what you would write, I don't actually believe that your > experience is limited to dhamma level only. It sounds more like you > use the word dhamma as an automatic suffix to anything you actually > experience, at the level you experience it. > -------------------- > > > Hmmm. Now you're confusing me. Is that the same as "dhamma dhamma > dhamma dhamma dhamma?" It looks disturbingly like "concept concept > concept concept!" > > The entire purpose of Dhamma discussions is to learn more about the > dhammas that are arising now. What other purpose could they have? What > else is there? > Well, when there is faith about what there is, then all that is ever seen is that faith, although it is confused as being some sort of reality. But, and because, if you are ever game enough to drop your faith and confront reality in the nakedness of viewlessness, you would find that dhammas arising in a present moment are not there for you to know. > > Thanks for your answer, but is it Dhamma, or is it some kind of > philosophy? It leaves me feeling lost in a sea of concepts. Oh to be > back on dry dhamma! > I like the turn of phrase. > --------------------- > H: > I think the self you deny is the self as agent, and somehow you > > think I entertain self as agent. But I treat of self as identity. The > idea of "what would be better?" is an expression of the craving that > is the dynamo for the ceaseless process of me becoming me, you > becoming you. > And we never quite get there, but to deny the reality of the process > of self trying to become self is futile to say the least. > > --------------------- > > I think I see a speck of dhamma in the distance. But what is this talk > about treating self as identity? Seriously, to which dhamma does that > refer? How does it help me to understand the dhammas that arising now? > This is a major topic of utter confusion, the dhammas arising now. I don't know who came up with this idea, for others to have faith in, but if I find them, I shall smack their bottoms. Why do you set out to try and understand something that doesn't happen? And why don't you actually have a peek and see what happens before deciding how things are? What are we to say about a photograph of a car, except that it is completely unknowable from the photo whether the car is moving or not. The very thing that defines a car, its ability to go from place to place, is lost in an instant snapshot of it. What are we to say about a present moment, except that it completely denies the nature of consciousness. Like a car, consciousness has a motor. Consciousness is driven by craving. Craving moves from a past to a future, always. Craving for being, as becoming, cannot manifest itself in a present moment, it is always a movement. And movement in a present moment is meaningless. As is the theory that knows all about the present moment. Turns out I completed answering your entire post. Now I gotta go and pack my suitcase. Well, actually, there's no gotta about it. I'm choosing to do that, out of a whole range of possibilities. Later, dude Herman #61641 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > I tend to> > > agree with your points here (and also with Nina, Ken H, Phil, KenO and > > others who've written on this thread. So, everyone's right:-)). > > ------------------------------- > Howard: > LOL! This reminds me of my recent post to Jon, with the Fiddler > on the > Roof story! Well, in any case, I'm glad my name is on your list! ;-) > ------------------------------ ... S: Not surprising as I was copying your Fiddler post:-) .... > > "Just as there is water below and above and on all sides of one who is > > immersed in water, so indeed in a desirable (i.t.tha) object the > arising > > of greed is completely habitual for beings, and likewise in an > > undesirable(ani.t.tha) object the arising of annoyance (pa.tigha)." > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that's not bad. 'Desirable' meaning standardly leading to > greed > (desire). However, it would be rare that such a dhamma would be > expewrirnced as > unpleasant, for few folks crave that. > ------------------------------------ > > > > > Perhaps this is what you were looking for, Howard? > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > It's the sort of thing I would want, though rather general. > ------------------------------------- S: As I mentioned, it's what we read throughout the suttas too. Nina recently quoted this: The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 251/253: <"23. The Arising and Non-Arising of The Roots There may be outsiders, O monks, who will ask you: 'Now, friends, what is the cause and condition whereby unarisen greed arises and arise greed becomes stronger and more powerful?' 'An attractive object', they should be told. In him who gives unwise attention to an object, unarisen greed will arise, and greed that has already arisen will bestronger and more powerful. 'Now, friends, what is the cause and condition whereby unarisen hatred arises and arisen hatred becomes stronger and more powerful?' 'A repulsive object', they should be told. In him who gives unwise attention to a repulsive object, unarisen hatred will arise, and hatred that has already arisen will grow stronger and more powerful." ***** S: A pleasing, agreeable object (i.t.tha)is one that that usually conditions the habitual greed which finds it desirable. Likewise, the disagreeable object usually conditions the aversion for what is found undesirable. I think I appreciate your concerns on the word use. Metta, Sarah ====== #61642 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:24 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 490- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Chapter 30 Equanimity (tatramajjhattatå) * "The good give up (attachment for) everything; the saintly prattle not with thoughts of craving: whether affected by happiness or by pain, the wise show neither elation nor depression." [Dhammapada (Chapter VI, The Wise, vs. 83)] * We are still susceptible to elation and depression. Those who have highly developed wisdom, the arahats, are not susceptible to elation nor depression, they have equanimity instead. There are many kinds and degrees of this quality and the arahat has the highest degree. Equanimity, evenmindedness or balance of mind (in Påli: tatramajjhattatå), is one of the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta. It is not easy to know the characteristic of equanimity. We may think that there is equanimity whenever there is neither like nor dislike of what we see, hear or experience through the other senses, but at such moments there may be ignorance instead of equanimity. We may confuse equanimity and indifferent feeling, but these are different cetasikas; equanimity is not feeling, the cetasika which is vedanå. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 153) states about equanimity: * "It has the characteristic of conveying citta and cetasikas evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly." * The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 133) gives a similar definition. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61643 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Herman, --- ken_aitch wrote: > H: > > I wonder why you use any words other than dhamma at all? My > translation of the above paragraphs into KenSpeak is "dhamma dhamma > dhamma dhamma dhamma dhamma dhamma etc etc" How am I doing? > --------------- > > Looks good to me, although I'm not keen on the "etc etc" part. :-) .... S: LOL LOL We're greatly enjoying your discussions - keep them up:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #61644 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. buddhatrue Hi Howard (Nina and Herman), Howard: > What in the world is artificial about that dissection? Are any two of > these five aggregates the same or indistinguishable or even equivalent. And > the reason he taught the five aggregates was definitely to disabuse us of the > notion of self. I'm perplexed by you on this one, James. :-) Well, there is no reason to be perplexed. I believe that this is primarily a semantic issue (although an issue in concept as well). I take the term "artificial dissection" quite literally, while you seem to be attaching additional concepts of characteristics and distinguish-ability. Let me try to make it simple: I can dissect a frog into its constituent parts. I can take the heart out and put it in one tray, and the liver out and put it in another tray; and anyone who looked at these trays would know that the frog's heart was here and the liver was there. There is nothing artificial about that dissection. It is a real dissection. However, could I dissect the same frog into the five khandas? Could I put form in one tray, feeling in another tray, perceptions in another tray, fabrications in another tray, and consciousness in the last tray? No, I could not do those things because the khandas are processes, they are not objects. Even when the Buddha separated them for the process of illustration and teaching, in reality he knew that they could not be separated. Howard, Karunadasa didn't write "artificial distinction", as you seem to be thinking, he wrote "artificial dissection". If he had written artificial distinction I would have had a problem with that also, but since he didn't write that I don't have a problem. Metta, James #61645 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:29 am Subject: Artificial (Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I.) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and James) - In a message dated 7/19/06 11:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Like James, I stumbled over Howard and Nina stumbling over > Karunadasa's line. The dissection is artificial because it arises > through action, the act of dissecting. Without a distinguishing act, > there is no distinction. > > ====================== Distinguishing is possible only of what is distinguishable. Do you confuse hardness with odor, and do you think it would be proper to do so?Or is it "artificial" to do so? And if "the dissection is artificial because it arises through action, the act of dissecting," then all actions are artificial. That means that all actions (though perhaps you meant only volitional ones) are artificial, and that, Herman, among other things, should put you smack dab in the middle of the "no-meditation camp"! In fact, it should put you smack dab in the middle of those who would say that any intentional Dhamma practice of any sort is "artificial". And, of course, it goes far beyond that; it goes to the point of eating being artificial, moving oneself out of the way of oncoming trucks being artificial, and, well, I suppose you are getting my point. What is *not* artificial that involves any intenton at all? Herman and James are you so certain that you wish to put yourselve in opposition to what is artificial? The Buddha said that the Dhamma goes against the stream. I guess that makes the Dhamma "artificial"! ;-) My bottom line: "Artificial" is good! It enlivens, it affrms, it supports life, and it frees! With metta, Howard #61646 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > .... > S: You may be interested to take a look at some of the many detailed > discussions there have been over the years on Karunadasa's articles here. > If you go to www.dhammastudygroup.org and put 'Karunadasa' in the atomz or > freefind search engines, you'll be directed to some of them. (For some > reason, the google search engine there isn't working well for now). James: Thanks. Okay, I may do that, but I seem to have my plate pretty full with the current discussions. ;-) > > I believe the quote on 'pariyatti' is from the Dhamma Theory article > you've already read (the whole article is on line) and parts like this one > can be found in U.P. also under 'Concepts' or 'Concepts vs Realities'. James: Okay, then Nina is confused. You should straighten her out on this subject. > Also, I remember we had a lot of discussion on the Time & Space article. > There's a lot of deep material to consider. (One problem I've often had is > in following some of his references to some of the more controversial > comments....but that may just be me). James: The Time and Space article, for the most part, went right over my head. ;-)) > > As for the 'pluralistic' comments - those are new ones here:-) James: Well, I aim to be original. ;-) > > Let's save any 'debates' until we meet and have our pleasant 'non- debate' > get together or whatever you wish:-). James: We will probably debate a little, but hopefully not too much. It could get ugly. After all, when it comes to the dhamma, we are very much from different worlds. The approach and philosophies of K.Sujin have polarized us to such an extent that there is little hope of agreement. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s If you'd like me to call the Taiwan embassy to find out times or > anything this end, drop me a note. James: Sure, if I need to know I will let you know. Metta, James #61648 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/20/06 2:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard > > ---------------- > H: >What is consciousness if not an event, an activity, a happening? > I can't imagine. > ---------------- > > To my mind, 'event' (activity, happening) includes a carnival, a horse > race, a wedding or maybe just the lifting up of a coffee cup. > Consciousness, on the other hand, is a conditioned dhamma. It is very > different from an event. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know why you wish to restrict the word 'event' to apply only to pa~n~natti, but I do not. Consciousness is a very real activity/event that actually occurs and is, indeed, conditioned. ---------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > <. . .> > H: >Sati spoke of consciousness being reborn, and the Buddha > corrected him. > You probably think that is only because "a" consciousness arises and > ceases immediately (or with very short duration), the followed by a > new consciousness, and each of these is a separate "thing that knows". > I do not think that is the reason. The fact of awareness (vi~n~nana) > not lasting and of each occurrence of being aware quite new certainly > is part of it. But another part of it is that there are no "things > that know at all". They would be knowers!! > ----------------------------------- > > That's not how I remember the sutta. I'm pretty sure Sati's fault was > purely in seeing citta as something that carried over. There was/is no > problem with saying that citta experienced an object. --------------------------------------- Howard: I never said there was any problem with being aware of consciousness. --------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------ > <. . .> > H: >I think there is a great danger in conceiving of a plurality of > little selves, of little agents that act. It is an atta-view. > ------------------------------------------- > > I read the Karunadasa article - jargon filled and unnecessarily heavy > going though it was. If I understood correctly, his objection to > 'plurality' stemmed from the Mahayana doctrine of non-duality. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It has nothing to do with Mahayana. It stems from anatta. BTW, it is a cheap shot to attampt to put something down by shouting "Mahayana"! -------------------------------------------- > > From the very little I know about non-duality, I gather it objects (as > you do) to dhammas being regarded as doers or performers of functions. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Now you go on with extended talk about "non-duality", which has no relevance in this matter. ------------------------------------------ > > Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote an article on how non-duality pertained (or did > not pertain) to Theravada. (Christine has posted it here from time to > time.) If I remember correctly, BB thinks it is a non-issue. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Argh! More non-duality. ------------------------------------------ He says> > in Theravada there is no problem with saying cetana wills, sanna > remembers, panna understands, etc. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I do not recall his speaking that way. But if he has, he is wrong. And the issue isn't one of non-duality per se, but of agency and actors. There is acting, but no actor, Ken. ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ==================== With metta, Howard #61649 From: Daniel Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:18 am Subject: Motivation sbhtkk Hi all, good day! Unfortunately I am meanwhile unable to join your more learned discussions, so I will just ask a simple question... In buddhism , the motivation is considered to be more important than the act. Why is it so? Can you give me some examples that would demonstrate it? Can you give me some examples to think over? Thank you, Daniel #61650 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/20/06 8:28:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard (Nina and Herman), > > Howard: > > What in the world is artificial about that dissection? Are > any two of > >these five aggregates the same or indistinguishable or even > equivalent. And > >the reason he taught the five aggregates was definitely to > disabuse us of the > >notion of self. I'm perplexed by you on this one, James. :-) > > Well, there is no reason to be perplexed. I believe that this is > primarily a semantic issue (although an issue in concept as well). > I take the term "artificial dissection" quite literally, while you > seem to be attaching additional concepts of characteristics and > distinguish-ability. > > Let me try to make it simple: I can dissect a frog into its > constituent parts. I can take the heart out and put it in one tray, > and the liver out and put it in another tray; and anyone who looked > at these trays would know that the frog's heart was here and the > liver was there. There is nothing artificial about that > dissection. It is a real dissection. > > However, could I dissect the same frog into the five khandas? Could > I put form in one tray, feeling in another tray, perceptions in > another tray, fabrications in another tray, and consciousness in the > last tray? No, I could not do those things because the khandas are > processes, they are not objects. Even when the Buddha separated > them for the process of illustration and teaching, in reality he > knew that they could not be separated. --------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, I spoke of distinguishing, not separating. Secondly, it would appear that you see physical analysis as "natural" and mental analysis as "artificial". I don't share that perspective. -------------------------------------- > > Howard, Karunadasa didn't write "artificial distinction", as you > seem to be thinking, he wrote "artificial dissection". If he had > written artificial distinction I would have had a problem with that > also, but since he didn't write that I don't have a problem. ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, then we are on the same page. If by 'dissection' one means "separating (into alleged independent, self-existing entities)", I would have no part of that. But the khandha categorization is not that at all. It is a categrization of the multitude of phenomena that arise, interdependently, with none self-existent. It is a distinguishing and a pointing out phenomena that are not identical or equivalent, that an be known individually (though not as isolates, at least not correctly so). To categorize and distinguish is not to impute separate self-existence. I would, however, also resist the idea of there being a "thing" that is a reality of which all the khandhic elements are mere facets. Of course these phenomena interact and interrelate harmoniously, but there is no entity that constitutes the "harmonious whole". At every level, there is emptiness. ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > > ==================== With metta, Howard #61651 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:55 am Subject: Typing Problems upasaka_howard Hi, all - I am currently having difficulties with the keyboard (or the software driver, or something or other) that is causing me to have to go back over almost every typed line to make many corrections. Even with that, a number of typos occur on posts that get sent. Please try your best to discern my meaning from context. (My apologies!) With metta, Howard #61652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:26 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 90 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 90. Nutriment-Condition (Aahaara-Paccaya) Intro: There are four kinds of nutriment which are nutriment-condition, aahaara-paccaya. One kind is physical nutriment and three are mental nutriments.They are: physical nutriment contact (phassa cetasika) volition (manosañcetanå which is cetanaa cetasika) consciousness (viññaa.na) Nutriment is a conditioning dhamma that maintains and supports the growth and development of the conditioned dhammas. As regards physical nutriment, this sustains the ruupas of the body. As we have seen,there are three kinds of mental nutriment which are: contact (phassa), volition (manosañcetanå) and citta (viññaa.na). Just as physical food supports and maintains the body does mental nutriment support and maintain the accompanying dhammas. In the case of mental nutriment the conditioning dhamma is conascent with the conditioned dhammas. As to the mental nutriment which is contact, phassa, this is a cetasika which contacts the object so that citta and the accompanying cetasikas can experience it. As to the mental nutriment which is volition, manosañcetanaa, this is cetanaa cetasika which accompanies all eighty-nine types of citta, thus it can be of the jåti which is kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. It coordinates the tasks of the citta and cetasikas it accompanies, and conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. As we have seen, cetanaa conditions the associated dhammas also by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata kamma-paccaya. As to the mental nutriment which is viññaa.na or citta, this refers to each citta. Citta supports and maintains the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. Thus, at each moment the three mental nutriments of contact, volition and citta support and maintain the dhammas arising together with them, and they also condition the ruupa produced by citta at that moment by way of nutriment-condition. The three mental nutriments can be considered under the aspect of the Pa.t.thaana and under the aspect of the Dependent Origination. In this section of the Visuddhimagga they are dealt with under the aspect of the Pa.t.thaana. Later on the Visuddhimagga deals with them under the aspect of the Dependent Origination. ------------ Text Vis. 90: (15) The four kinds of nutriment, which assist material and immaterial states by consolidating them, are 'nutriment conditions', according as it is said: 'Physical nutriment is a condition, as nutriment condition, for this body. Immaterial nutriments are conditions, as nutriment condition, for associated states and for the kinds of materiality originated by them' (P.tn.1,5). -------- N: As to physical nutriment, kaba.liikaaro ahaaro, this is food made into morsels, eatable food. Nutritive essence (ojå) present in food that has been taken suffuses the body and then new ruupas can be produced. As we have seen, nutrition is one of the four factors which produces ruupas of the body, the other three being kamma, citta and temperature. Nutritive essence is present in all groups of rúpas; it is one of the eight "inseparable ruupas'' present in all materiality, no matter it is the body or materiality outside. Nutritive essence present in the groups of ruupas of the body cannot produce new rúpas without the support of nutritive essence which is in food, external nutritive essence. The Tiika states that if physical nutriment would not support the ruupas of the body that originate from the four factors there would not be the production of ruupas without interruption. The nutritive essence which, because of the support of external nutritive essence, produces new rúpas of the body also supports and maintains the groups of rúpas originating from the four factors. The Tiika emphasizes that the nature of material food and mental food is to give support in consolidating the dhammas they condition by way of nutrition-condition. The Tiika states that mental food, aruupaahaara, is also a condition for ruupa dhammas by way of nutrition-condition. The mental nutriments, contact, volition and citta, condition the naama dhammas which arise together with them and also the ruupas produced by citta by way of nutriment-condition. ---------- Text Vis.: But in the Question Section it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking, resultant indeterminate nutriments are conditions, as nutriment condition, for aggregates associated therewith and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed' (P.tn.1,174). ------------ The Tiika adds that the mental nutriments condition by way of nutriment not only mind-produced ruupa, but also sometimes ruupa produced by kamma that has been performed. The word ‘sometimes’ (kadaaci) refers to the moment of rebirth. At that moment kamma produces simultaneously the rebirth-consciousness and also ruupas. At the moment of rebirth the mental nutriments condition the associated naama-dhammas and the ruupa produced by kamma by way of nutriment-condition (Paììhåna,Faultless Triplet, Ch VII,Investigation Chapter,Nutriment,§ 429). ****** Conclusion. We eat food to keep the body going, and at each moment nutrition- condition operates by supporting and consolidating all the ruupas of which the body consists, be they produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. If nutrition would not support all the ruupas of the body that arise and fall away and are replaced by new ruupas, our body would collapse. If we consider the intricate way in which different conditions operate so that the body can function, we can come to understand that we are not the owner of our body. As to the mental food contact, phassa, this cetasika arises with each citta and it supports citta and the accompanying cetasikas so that they can experience the object that is contacted by it. When seeing arises, it is accompanied by contact which supports seeing by way of nutrition-condition, so that it can experience visible object. When hearing arises, a different object is contacted, sound. All the time different objects are experienced, but this would not be possible without contact that arises together with citta. Volition coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas and in doing so it supports and consolidates them. Citta is the chief in cognizing an object and it supports the accompanying cetasikas that experience the same object, each in their own manner. They could not do so without the support of citta. Citta and cetasikas need the support of the mental nutritions, and apart from this condition, they are dependent on many other conditions as well. This helps us to see that they are devoid of a self who could manipulate them. ********** Nina. #61653 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:27 am Subject: Some Material that Impresses Me upasaka_howard Hi, all - I found much that rings an approving sentiment in me in the following material, where the entire article is to be found at the following ATI link) : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch2. I set off in double slashes, //...\\, those parts that especially ring a bell with me. I also set off two small portions with triple asterisks for special emphasis. With metta, Howard _________________________ //***In the ultimate sense, there do not even exist such things as mental states, i.e. stationary things. Feeling, perception, consciousness, etc., are in reality mere passing processes of feeling, perceiving, becoming conscious, etc., within which and outside of which no separate or permanent entity lies hidden.*** Thus a real understanding of the Buddha's doctrine of kamma and rebirth is possible only to one who has caught a glimpse of the egoless nature, or anattata, and of the conditionality, or idappaccayata, of all phenomena of existence.\\ Therefore it is said in the Visuddhimagga (Chap. XIX):Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the concatenation of causes and effects. //No producer of the volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language, when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the result.No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their fruits; Empty phenomena roll on: This only is the correct view.\\ And while the deeds and their results Roll on and on, conditioned all, There is no first beginning found, Just as it is with seed and tree... No god, no Brahma, can be called The maker of this wheel of life: Empty phenomena roll on, Dependent on conditions all. In the Milindapañha the King asks Nagasena:"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?""A psycho-physical combination (nama-rupa), O King.""But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical combination as this present one?""No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be born." As in the ultimate sense (paramatthavasena) there is no such thing as a real ego-entity, or personality, one cannot properly speak of the rebirth of such a one. What we are here concerned with is this psycho-physical process, which is cut off at death, in order to continue immediately thereafter somewhere else.Similarly we read in the Milindapañha:"Does, Venerable Sir, rebirth take place without transmigration?""Yes, O King.""But how, Venerable Sir, can rebirth take place without the passing over of anything? Please, illustrate this matter for me.""If, O King, a man should light a lamp with the help of another lamp, does the light of the one lamp pass over to the other lamp?""No, Venerable Sir.""Just so, O King, does rebirth take place without transmigration." Further, in the Visuddhimagga (Chap. XVII) it is said:Whosoever has no clear idea about death and does not know that death consists in the dissolution of the five groups of existence (i.e. corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness), he thinks that it is a person, or being, that dies and transmigrates to a new body, etc. And whosoever has no clear idea about rebirth, and does not know that rebirth consists in the arising of the five groups of existence, he thinks that it is a person, or being, that is reborn, or that the person reappears in a new body. And whosoever has no clear idea about Samsara, the round of rebirths, he thinks that a real person wanders from this world to another world, comes from that world to this world, etc. And whosoever has no clear idea about the phenomena of existence, he thinks that the phenomena are his ego or something appertaining to the ego, or something permanent, joyful, or pleasant. And whosoever has no clear idea about the conditional arising of the phenomena of existence, and about the arising of kammic volitions conditioned through ignorance, he thinks that it is the ego that understands or fails to understand, that acts or causes to act, that enters into a new existence at rebirth. Or he thinks that the atoms or the Creator, etc., with the help of the embryonic process, shape the body, provide it with various faculties; that it is the ego that receives the sensuous impression, that feels, that desires, that becomes attached, that enters into existence again in another world. Or he thinks that all beings come to life through fate or chance.A mere phenomenon it is, a thing conditioned, That rises in the following existence. But not from a previous life does it transmigrate there, And yet it cannot rise without a previous cause. When this conditionally arisen bodily-mental phenomenon (the fetus) arises, one says that it has entered into (the next) existence. However, no being (satta), or life-principle (jiva), has transmigrated from the previous existence into this existence, and yet this embryo could not have come into existence without a previous cause. This fact may be compared with the reflection of one's face in the mirror, or with the calling forth of an echo by one's voice. Now, just as the image in the mirror or the echo are produced by one's face or voice without any passing over of face or voice, just so it is with the arising of rebirth-consciousness. //Should there exist a full identity or sameness between the earlier and the later birth, in that case milk could never turn into curd; and should there exist an entire otherness, curd could never be conditioned through milk. Therefore one should admit neither a full identity, nor an entire otherness of the different stages of existence. Hence na ca so, na ca añño: "neither is it the same, nor is it another one."As already said above: all life, be it corporeal, conscious or subconscious, is a flowing, a continual process of becoming, change and transformation. ***To sum up the foregoing, we may say: There are in the ultimate sense no real beings or things, neither creators nor created; there is but this process of corporeal and mental phenomena.***\\ This whole process of existence has an active side and a passive side. The active or causal side of existence consists of the kamma-process (kamma-bhava), i.e. of wholesome and unwholesome kamma-activity, while the passive or caused side consists of kamma-results, or vipaka, the so-called rebirth-process (upapatti-bhava), i.e. the arising, growing, decaying and passing away of all these kammically neutral phenomena of existence. //Thus, in the absolute sense, there exists no real being that wanders through this round of rebirths, but merely this ever-changing twofold process of kamma-activities and kamma-results takes place.\\ #61654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:23 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 29. nilovg Dear friends, One may cling to the body with wrong view, in Påli: di.t.thi. Di.t.thi is a cetasika which can arise with lobha-mula-citta (citta rooted in attachment). Sometimes there is lobha without wrong view, di.t.thi, and sometimes with wrong view. There are different kinds of di.t.thi. The belief in a ``self'' is one kind of di.t.thi. We may cling to mental phenomena as well as to physical phenomena with the wrong view of self. Some people believe that there is a self who exists in this life and who will continue to exist after this life-span is over. This is the ``eternity-belief''. Others believe in a self who, existing only in this life, will be annihilated after this life-span is over. This is the ``annihilation- belief''. Another form of di.t.thi is the belief that there is no kamma which produces vipåka, that deeds do not bring their results. There have always been people in different countries who think that they can be purified of their imperfections merely by ablution in water or by prayers. They believe that the results of ill deeds they committed can thus be warded off. They do not know that each deed can bring about its own result. We can only purify ourselves of imperfections if the wisdom is cultivated which can eradicate them. If one thinks that deeds do not bring about their appropriate results one may easily be inclined to believe that the cultivation of wholesomeness is useless. This kind of belief may lead to ill deeds and to the corruption of society. There are eight types of lobha-múla-citta and of these, four types arise with wrong view, di.t.thi (in Påli: di.t.thigata-sampayutta; sampayutta means: associated with). Four types of lobha-múla-citta arise without wrong view (in Påli: di.t.thigata-vippayutta; vippayutta means: dissociated from). As regards the feeling which accompanies the lobha-múla-citta, lobha- múla-cittas can arise either with pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling, never with unpleasant feeling. Of the four types of lobha- múla-citta which are accompanied by di.t.thi, two types arise with pleasant feeling, somanassa (in Påli: somanassa-sahagata; sahagata means: accompanied by); two types arise with indifferent feeling, upekkhå (in Påli: upekkhå-sahagata). For example, when one clings to the view that there is a self who will continue to exist, the citta can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Of the four lobha-múla-cittas arising without di.t.thi, two types are accompanied by pleasant feeling and two types are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Thus, of the eight types of lobha-múla-citta, four types arise with pleasant feeling and four types arise with indifferent feeling. ***** Nina. #61655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:26 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 11. nilovg Dear friends, Now I shall continue with the sutta. Nandaka said further on: 'It is good, sisters, it is good. For it is thus, sisters, that by means of perfect intuitive wisdom this is seen by an ariyan disciple as it really is. It is, sisters, as if a clever cattle-butcher or cattle-butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, should dissect the cow with a butcher's sharp knife without spoiling the flesh within, without spoiling the outer hide, and with the butcher's sharp knife should cut, should cut around, should cut all around whatever tendons, sinews and ligaments there are within; and having cut, cut around, cut all around and removed the outer hide and, having clothed that cow in that self-same hide again, should then speak thus: " This cow is conjoined with this hide as before." Speaking thus, sisters, would he be speaking rightly?' 'No, revered sir.What is the reason for this? Although, revered sir, that clever cattle-butcher or cattle-butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow... having clothed that cow in that self-same hide again, might then speak thus: "This cow is conjoined with this hide as before," yet that cow is not conjoined with that hide.' 'I have made this simile for you, sisters, so as to illustrate the meaning. This is the meaning here: "the flesh within" sisters, is a synonym for the six internal sense-fields. "The outer hide", sisters, is a synonym for the six external sense-fields. "The tendons, sinews and ligaments within", sisters, is a synonym for delight and attachment. "The butcher's sharp knife", sisters, is a synonym for the ariyan intuitive wisdom, the ariyan intuitive wisdom by which one cuts, cuts around, cuts all around the inner defilements, the inner fetters and the inner bonds.' ******** Nina. #61656 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi Howard, you write: A unit/collection/aggregate consisting of citta, cetasikas, and object is a concept. This leads to misunderstandings, now I see where the trouble lies. Citta, cetasika and object is not a collection, this is not so clear. Citta and cetasika experience together an object. If this object is rupa it has arisen before, remember the prenascence-condition. Ruupa is weak at its arising moment and cannot be an object. The same about the physical base, this has to be prenascent. So, unit or collection is to be avoided. Your remark about Abhidhamma inspires me to relate it even more to daily life, as much as I can! Examples where I fail always welcome. From you and James! After I read Abh. to Lodewijk we had a short discussion about this point. Lodewijk finds what I read not abstract at all, but that it touches on daily life itself. Is it not beneficial to know that lobha can also arise with indifferent feeling? What about now? Also when there is no delight, there is likely to be lobha. We cling to colour, sound, even if we do not pay much attention and let it go, but still lobha. So many moments are unnoticed. It looks abstract when reading about the eight types of cittas rooted in lobha, but they arise in daily life. You say< To each accordingto his taste>, but this cannot be said of the Abhidhamma. Why? Because the Abhidhamma is not the text, seeing, lobha, dosa, these are Abhidhamma. We cannot say seeing is according to one's taste. I appreciate your quote of Nyanatiloka. Much of it is from the Visuddhimagga. BTW do not worry about typos, nobody falls over them here. What can help: write in your doc and then copy it to the mail. I can hardly answer between lines, the cursor behaves funny. Nina. Op 20-jul-2006, om 1:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > A unit/collection/aggregate consisting of citta, cetasikas, and object > is, of course, a concept. But the individual experiential realities, > including the citta (i.e., the knowing of the object), are > paramattha dhammas, not > concepts. > -------------------------------------- > > You often stress that they are interdependent and that is right. > > There is no citta without cetasikas and no cetasikas without citta. > -------------------------------------- > > > What you render of Karunadasa seems to me so many definitions, it > > seems so complicated. so much thinking involved, but that is my > > personal impression. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > And that is my impression of Abhidhamma, Nina! ;-) To each according > to his taste (or, as you would surely prefer to say, accumulations). > -------------------------------------- #61657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH nilovg Hi Howard, we are at the agency terminology, as you also quote from Karunadasa. There is no danger if we understand citta niyaama. Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of citta. Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own function. For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that process, which perform their own function. There is a certain fixed order of cittas, citta niyama, within a process and this order cannot be altered. The “Gradual Sayings” (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa. _______ Thus, seeing is a function and after seeing there is a citta performing the function of receiving the object, sampaticchana, and so on. Who could think of an agent or a doer here? absurd. From past life to this life, and each moment of this life, from birth to death cittas perform functions according to a certain order that nobody in the world, not even a Buddha could change. ------ Also when we consider conditions in detail, such as nutrition- condition I posted today, it defies any agent or doer. Citta is so dependent on contact to experience an object, it could not do this without the consolidating support of contact which condition it by way of nutrition-condition. You discussed with Larry the non-self and Larry said: but it is consciousness, thus non-self. You answered with laughter, but I think it one of the best remarks Larry ever made. It is citta doing these things, not a person. Citta performs the function of seeing, hearing, etc. Citta falls away immediately, where is the agent? I also find that performing of functions renders the meaning of being impersonal. Nina. Op 19-jul-2006, om 20:28 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > + You wrote to Larry: "Seeing performs the function of seeing, dassana > kicca. Hearing performs the function of hearing, savana kicca." #61658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:48 am Subject: motivation nilovg Hi Daniel, just one example, others will give more. In the case of giving, you may hand over something to someone else. But is every kind of giving true generosity? It depends on the intention, cetanaa. An outward deed may look the same, but depending on whether intention is kusala or akusala, it is generosity or only fake generosity. Nina. BTW, I could not erase all the posts that were below, soo many. Please try to cut those. Op 20-jul-2006, om 15:18 heeft Daniel het volgende geschreven: > > Unfortunately I am meanwhile unable to join your more learned > discussions, so I > will just ask a simple question... > > > In buddhism , the motivation is considered to be more important > than the act. > Why is it so? Can you give me some examples that would demonstrate > it? Can you > give me some examples to think over? #61659 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/20/06 2:25:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, we are at the agency terminology, as you also quote from > Karunadasa. ----------------------------------- Howard: Agency terminology is, indeed, a terminology issue. I will address that below, in context. -------------------------------- > There is no danger if we understand citta niyaama. > > Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: > Fixedness of Law regarding all things. > There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: > 1. temperature, season. > 2. plant life. > 3. kamma. > 4. functions of citta in the processes. > 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. > > N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and > kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a > fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand why you bring this up in the context of agency terminology, Nina. --------------------------------------- > > As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects > through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of > citta. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Cittas are not things that experirnce objects - they are the experiencings. ----------------------------------- Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own > > function. ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand what that means, Nina. A citta is an experiencing of an object, nothing more or less. --------------------------------- For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience > > visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, > and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that > process, which perform their own function. ------------------------------- Howard: When there is seeing, there is seeing. I miss the point. Ceratinly seeing isn't hearing or anything else. It is the knowing of a visual object. --------------------------------- There is a certain fixed > > order of cittas, citta niyama, within a process and this order cannot > be altered. ------------------------------ Howard: What has that got to do with reified terminology? ----------------------------- > > The “Gradual Sayingsâ€? (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: > Tathaagata, this causal law of nature (dhaatudhamma.t.thitataa), this > orderly fixing of things (dhammaniyaamataa) prevails, namely, All > phenomena are impermanent...> ------------------------------ Howard: So? ------------------------------ > The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa. > > _______ > Thus, seeing is a function and after seeing there is a citta > performing the function of receiving the object, sampaticchana, and > so on. > ------------------------------ Howard: Yes. It is a function, not a thing that HAS a function. ----------------------------- > Who could think of an agent or a doer here? absurd. ----------------------------- Howard: Well, I agree. There is no agenet or doer here. --------------------------- From past > > life to this life, and each moment of this life, from birth to death > cittas perform functions according to a certain order that nobody in > the world, not even a Buddha could change. --------------------------- Howard: No, there are no things called cittas that perform functions. Every citta is nothing other than the experiencing of some object or other. Every citta is an action/activity, the knowing of something. That's all. It is not some thing that performs a function. Some thing that performs a function is an agent. ---------------------------- > ------ > Also when we consider conditions in detail, such as nutrition- > condition I posted today, it defies any agent or doer. Citta is so > dependent on contact to experience an object, it could not do this > without the consolidating support of contact which condition it by > way of nutrition-condition. > You discussed with Larry the non-self and Larry said: but it is > consciousness, thus non-self. You answered with laughter, but I think > it one of the best remarks Larry ever made. It is citta doing these > things, not a person. > ---------------------------------- Howard: There is more to anatta than the nonexistence of persons (in the ultimate sense). ----------------------------------- Citta performs the function of seeing, hearing, > > etc. Citta falls away immediately, where is the agent? ----------------------------------- Howard: As you have described it - a thing that performs a function, the citta is the agent! ----------------------------------- > I also find that performing of functions renders the meaning of being > impersonal. > Nina. ================= With metta, Howard #61660 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:37 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa dacostacharles Hi Herman, I agree !! , Charles DaCosta _____ #61661 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:55 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidharma origins dacostacharles Dear Nina, When you say, “…because they had developed it for many aeons in the past.” You are giving me the impression that you are trying to explain your-self from the standpoint of reincarnation. This would contradict your usual stance derived from the No-self view based on the Abidharma. I agree that the whole of the Tipitaka points to reaching the end of the cycle of birth and death. My point was that the conditions for doing this vary, so the different sutras tend to cover different conditions; thus making possible, under many different circumstances, the ending of the cycle of birth and death. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina van Gorkom Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 20:33 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidharma origins Hi Charles D, To be born at the Buddha's time and hear his teaching directly from him is due to the right conditions. For many of them paññaa had matured because they had developed it for many aeons in the past. That is why they could understand his words. I think the whole of the Tipitaka, not only the Abhidhamma points to reaching the end of the cycle of birth and death. Nina. <...> #61662 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Consciousness! dacostacharles Dear Kanchuu, You are ultimately asking the same questions most of us go through. 1. What is the difference between Consciousness, Awareness, Knowledge and Education??? a) Awareness deals with the senses; the ability to detect what you sense (e.g., hear); the state of being conscious/alert/awake; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc. b) Knowledge is what you acquire as you learn/take-in information. c) Education is what you get from a school for example. d) Consciousness can be considered the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual; the full activity of the mind and senses; the mind or the mental faculties as characterized by thought, feelings, and volition. 2. How can you be sure that your daily activities are right? a) When you have learned all there is to know, and you understand, and are always able and willing to apply what you have learned. Oh ya, and are willing to live with the consequences of your actions (both good and bad). b) Other than that, answer "a", this "trial and error" approach you take is quite normal and healthy. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kanchuu2003 Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 05:29 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Consciousness! Hello All, Please help me with Consciousness... What is the difference between Consciousness, Awareness, Knowledge and Education??? How can I be sure that my daily activites are right? Everytime when I do something, I feel it is 100% right and I do it. Later on I realize it was wrong... What is the ultimate rightfull action??? I have been loosing confidence... Everything I do these days, I try to give my best, but am not not sure whether it is right or not??? Kind Regards, Kanchuu #61663 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: Re: Artificial (Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I.) egberdina Hi Howard, On 20/07/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Herman (and James) - > > In a message dated 7/19/06 11:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > Like James, I stumbled over Howard and Nina stumbling over > > Karunadasa's line. The dissection is artificial because it arises > > through action, the act of dissecting. Without a distinguishing act, > > there is no distinction. > > > > > ====================== > Distinguishing is possible only of what is distinguishable. Do you > confuse hardness with odor, and do you think it would be proper to do so?Or is it > "artificial" to do so? The main thrust of my statement was that there are scenarios in which neither hardness or odor come into play. You seem to be saying that differences *exist*, regardless of how they come into being. > And if "the dissection is artificial because it arises through action, > the act of dissecting," then all actions are artificial. All actions come about through craving. No action is necessary, or proper, or rightly so, or called for. All action is gratuitous. Yes, all action is artificial. That means that all > actions (though perhaps you meant only volitional ones) are artificial, and > that, Herman, among other things, should put you smack dab in the middle of the > "no-meditation camp"! In fact, it should put you smack dab in the middle of > those who would say that any intentional Dhamma practice of any sort is > "artificial". And, of course, it goes far beyond that; it goes to the point of eating > being artificial, moving oneself out of the way of oncoming trucks being > artificial, and, well, I suppose you are getting my point. What is *not* artificial > that involves any intenton at all? All being, or more precisely becoming, is artificial, contrived, gratuitous. None of it is necessary, and all of it goes absolutely nowhere. There is no satisfaction to be found in any of it. That is dukkha to a tee. And the position *we* fnd ourselves in. > Herman and James are you so certain that you wish to put yourselve in > opposition to what is artificial? The Buddha said that the Dhamma goes against > the stream. I guess that makes the Dhamma "artificial"! ;-) > My bottom line: "Artificial" is good! It enlivens, it affrms, it > supports life, and it frees! My bottom line: the Buddha teaches kamma for the cessation of kamma. In this context , jhanas are a kammaless, pleasant abiding. Off to Melbourne, intentionally :-). Cheers Herman #61664 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] psychology of spiritual movements dacostacharles Thanks, I have t look at it later Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 00:53 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] psychology of spiritual movements Hello Everyone, Came across a fascinating article on spiritual movements. Any comments? with metta Matheesha ------------------------------------------- ON THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SPIRITUAL MOVEMENTS <...> #61665 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:55 am Subject: Re: Artificial (Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I.) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/20/06 5:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > On 20/07/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > > >Hi, Herman (and James) - > > > > In a message dated 7/19/06 11:43:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > > >Like James, I stumbled over Howard and Nina stumbling over > > >Karunadasa's line. The dissection is artificial because it arises > > >through action, the act of dissecting. Without a distinguishing act, > > >there is no distinction. > > > > > > > > ====================== > > Distinguishing is possible only of what is distinguishable. Do you > > confuse hardness with odor, and do you think it would be proper to do > so?Or is it > > "artificial" to do so? > > The main thrust of my statement was that there are scenarios in which > neither hardness or odor come into play. You seem to be saying that > differences *exist*, regardless of how they come into being. ----------------------------------- Howard: I'm not following you. Maybe I'll understand as I read on. ----------------------------------- > > > > And if "the dissection is artificial because it arises through action, > > the act of dissecting," then all actions are artificial. > > All actions come about through craving. No action is necessary, or > proper, or rightly so, or called for. All action is gratuitous. Yes, > all action is artificial. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Then there is no Buddhist practice. You are taking the same extreme "no doing" view of some others on DSG. ------------------------------------------ > > That means that all > > actions (though perhaps you meant only volitional ones) are artificial, > and > > that, Herman, among other things, should put you smack dab in the middle > of the > > "no-meditation camp"! In fact, it should put you smack dab in the middle > of > > those who would say that any intentional Dhamma practice of any sort is > > "artificial". And, of course, it goes far beyond that; it goes to the > point of eating > > being artificial, moving oneself out of the way of oncoming trucks being > > artificial, and, well, I suppose you are getting my point. What is *not* > artificial > > that involves any intenton at all? > > All being, or more precisely becoming, is artificial, contrived, > gratuitous. None of it is necessary, and all of it goes absolutely > nowhere. There is no satisfaction to be found in any of it. That is > dukkha to a tee. And the position *we* fnd ourselves in. > > > Herman and James are you so certain that you wish to put yourselve in > > opposition to what is artificial? The Buddha said that the Dhamma goes > against > > the stream. I guess that makes the Dhamma "artificial"! ;-) > > My bottom line: "Artificial" is good! It enlivens, it affrms, it > > supports life, and it frees! > > My bottom line: the Buddha teaches kamma for the cessation of kamma. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'll go along with that. But that initial kamma is needed! Also, that cessation of kamma is not an absolute cessation: It is the cessation of defiled kamma, of bogged-down-in-self kamma. The Buddha still acted, and he acted purposively. ---------------------------------------- > In this context , jhanas are a kammaless, pleasant abiding. --------------------------------------- Howard: Cetana still arises in jhanas. For example, from the Anupada Sutta, there is the following: - - - - - - - - - "And those states in the first Jhana - the thinking, the examining, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; The contact, feeling, perception, //volition\\ and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is. - - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------- > > Off to Melbourne, intentionally :-). ----------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Enjoy! ---------------------------------------- > > > Cheers > > > Herman > > > =================== With metta, Howard #61666 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:33 pm Subject: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Jon and others, M: I've put together a collection of suttas which looks at the interoconnection of the above. I think my understanding has grown because of the discussion I've had with Jon. Thanks Jon! 'The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html M: Note that this sutta clearly asks a monk to develop concentration (Samadhi). `A concentrated monk, discerns..' It shows leading, from one to the next. It does not say develop panna, then Samadhi will arise along with it. "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html M: The above sutta shows that Samadhi developed in different ways can have different outcomes. Sometimes it is jhana, sometimes it is panna. These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.030.than.html M: The above sutta shows the development of Samatha (tranquility) is there to control craving while the developments of Samadhi (unification) has many outcomes including samatha. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. "When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.063.than.html M: This sutta shows progression of samatha to vipassana. "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. M: This shows how satipatthana practice leads to Samadhi, where defilements are abandoned. This must be a type of Samadhi leading to samatha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.008.than.html "So it is, Sisters, so it is!" replied Ananda. "Indeed for anybody, Sisters, whether monk or nun, who abides with a mind well established in the four foundations of mindfulness — it is to be expected that their understanding becomes ever greater and more excellent." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html M: ..then this shows how satipatthana leads to panna. Being very aware/mindful means to detect patterns in what is being observed. For example ancient man understood that seasons were impermanent – they only had to be aware. Impermanence is not a an exclusive Buddhist understanding, it is a human one. But to see it moment to moment is Buddhist. All that is required is to SEE moment to moment at what is happening, book knowledge is not essential. Then the pattern of impermanence becomes apparent. Realizing anicca leads to realizing dukkha and subsequently annata (helped by SEEING causality, which is yet another human understanding only becoming Buddhist be seeing it moment to moment). Book knowledge is not required. It is not a case of panna arising out of nowhere. It is what we already know in other contexts (impermanance and causailty on a bigger/day to day level) applied moment to moment. It is this new application which has earthshaking implications for the observer. 'When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for which I directed my my mind has been accomplished. So now I shall withdraw [directed attention from the image]." He withdraws, and no longer thinks upon or thinks about [the image]. He understands: "I am not thinking upon or thinking about [anything]. Inwardly mindful, I am content." This is directed meditation. And what is undirected meditation? Not directing his mind outward, a monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html M: This shows the different types of wielding of awareness, one if directed and focused (leading to Samadhi of samatha type), the undirected awareness leading to satipatthana type practice. You must take this bowl filled to the brim with oil and carry it on your head in between the great crowd & the beauty queen. A man with a raised sword will follow right behind you, and wherever you spill even a drop of oil, right there will he cut off your head.' Now what do you think, monks: Will that man, not paying attention to the bowl of oil, let himself get distracted outside?" "No, lord." "I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding, steady it, consolidate it, and undertake it well.' That is how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.020.than.html M: Clearly talking about having unbroken mindfulness through effort. "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html M: This shows that there is samatha leading to vipassana practice, vipassana leading to samatha practice and even both developed together. It is clear that it is important in the Buddhist path to develop both samatha and vipassana. They have been described as two wheels of the Path. One without the other is a lopsided development. The Buddha clearly stated he would teach the other, to someone who only knew one. The question is, is there a rudimentary level of Samadhi development which then branches off in many directions into samatha and vipassana. I believe there is, as the same word Samadhi is used to designate a singular quality of mind in all these instances. This is what makes it possible for samatha to lead to vipassana and vice versa in a fluid manner. With metta Matheesha #61668 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > First of all, I spoke of distinguishing, not separating. Secondly, it > would appear that you see physical analysis as "natural" and mental analysis > as "artificial". I don't share that perspective. > -------------------------------------- I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in the mood to continue this discussion. I think I will bow out. However, you could read this article on the khandas which mirrors my position on the matter: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/khandha.html Metta, James 29) #61669 From: "buddhiststudent" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:44 am Subject: Straight Vipassana Doesn't Lead To Nibbana - Bhante Vimalaramsi buddhiststudent Straight Vipassana Doesn't Lead To Nibbana Dhamma Greetings Adam, One thing that is mostly overlooked when we calm our body is the tightness oe tension that is in our head and brain. This subtle tightness can easily be overlooked if you don't relax it on the in breath and relax it on the out breath. When you do this the kind of jhana that you will experience still has the ability to practice vipassana with it at the same time! The one-pointed concentration will make mind stay on only one thing that it focuses on and this is why the straight vipassana people tell us to just do vipassana. But straight vipassana doesn't lead to nibbana, I tried that and the experience of nibbana that they talk about doesn't match what the Buddha says in the suttas. If you would go to my website at http://www.dhammasukha.org and scroll down to Talks and click there then scroll down to sutta 111 the Anupada sutta it will be of some benefit to you. The way I teach meditation is the closest thing to the suttas as I can make it. Hope this is of some help to you. The Joshua Tree retreat talks is a series of talks where many people got great benefit by practicing the way the suttas told them to. You may find some interesting things in this series of talks. We will be making some MP3's with the entire series of talks on them and if you want a copy of these please let me know. Sadhu to you for all of the help you are giving me in spreading the Dhamma! I would like to hear Ven. Dhammavudo's replies about the sutta instructions. If you have the time. Maha-Metta 2U always Bhante Vimalaramsi 1) #61670 From: "buddhiststudent" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:45 am Subject: Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi: Without this jhana practice becomes very difficult buddhiststudent A Meditator Puts That One Exact Step Of Relaxing Tightness Especially In Ones Head And Brain, The Jhana Is Completely Different And Contemplation While One Is In The Jhana Can Be Done. Dhamma Greetings Adam, The whole thing about jhana is when you read the suttas they give very precise instructions about how to do the Anapanasati meditation. When one does not follow these instructions exactly and precisely then they will begin to practice one-pointed concentration which by the way was rejected by the Bodhisatta. In the post that i wrote about how to practice the meditation the way the Buddha taught, I made a lot of statements about relaxing on the in breath and relaxing on the out breath. Without this one step the jhana practice becomes very difficult indeed. The way about one-pointed type of concentration and it is true that one cannot contemplate while in that type of jhana. But when a meditator puts that one exact step of relaxing tightness especially in ones head and brain, the jhana is completely different and contemplation while one is in the jhana can be done. I know that my definitions are different from the Pali text Society and many other people who practice meditation and it is because of their not understanding or practicing the meditation with the step of relaxing in it. When I say that each stage or step of jhana is a level of understanding, I mean that the meditator learns more and more about how Dependent Origination actually occurs. And this agrees with the suttas very closely. As the meditator begins to see exactly how mind's attention moves from one thing to another they begin to see that this is an impersonal process and are able to observe more and more closely exactly how it occurs. When we hear what someone says the way to find out what was said is to compare it to the suttas and vinaya. I have made it a habit to read the sutta and then explain it while I give a Dhamma talk. So my interpretation may be different from many other people who teach. The way I teach and have my students follow is by being as precise and exact as possible with the actual suttas. As a result, many, many people are able to experience jhana quickly. When I am teaching metta, if one of my students don't attain a jhana within a few days I start asking them what they are doing and why aren't they following the instructions more carefully. Actually I like to teach metta more than I like to teach anapanasati because the progress in the meditation is so much faster. And when one practices metta their daily activities are easier to follow and smile. Do you have an MP3 that plays CD's? I have a CD that has all of my talks from the Joshua Tree Retreat on it but it is in the MP3 format. Other wise I won't be able to send you the talks until we make more copies and it will be a series of 12 CD's for the Joshua Tree Retreat. It may take 3 or 4 weeks with the high quality set of 12 CD's. These talks have both the basic practices and the more advanced talks, so you can have a good grounding in the way I teach. So please tell me which kind of format is best for you and I will send it a long as soon as possible. I do sincerely wish you all kinds of happiness and freedom from all kinds of suffering. Maha-Metta 2u always Bhante Vimalaramsi 1) #61671 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:41 pm Subject: Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks again for the reply. J: "I agree with the characterisation of clear comprehension as wisdom, but I am wary about the mention of 'bare mindfulness' if that is meant as a reference to a form of 'practice', since I don't think there is such a thing as 'bare mindfulness' where the object of the mindfulness is a dhamma. To my understanding, such mindfulness can only occur if it is accompanied by wisdom also." Yes, clearly, in reading Nyanaponika, he considers there to be a "practise" of Bare Attention or "bare mindfulness" as in the above quote. Your wariness is, in that sense, well-founded. He writes about "results to be expected from its application," (p. 30). That alone, not to mention that the entire book is devoted to it, confirms your suspicions. When you state, then, that you "don't think there is such a thing as 'bare mindfulness' where the object of the mindfulness is a dhamma," I understand this to be a statement against the possibility of making such an event occur. Stating that only accompanied by wisdom can such minfulness occur, I understand you to be saying that this is a possible arising, given the right conditions, but cannot be controlled or directed. Really, as I read many of the threads these days, it is this very point that seems to be the one being debated, in one form or another. This thesis, that there can be no practise, seems only a little bit popular, if at all. I'm able to accept it as far as I understand it, but that likely isn't very far. I've been shadowing the discussions about the Karunadasa essay. I've read it a few times and find it to be very well-written, and, I think, confirmative of the view which states that there can be no practise. In fact, right near the beginning, Karunadasa states: "The Buddha had taught that to see the world correctly is to see - not persons and substances - but bare phenomena (suddhadhamma)arising and perishing in accordance with their conditions." "Suddha," appears to mean "clean, pure, purified, simple, mere, unmixed" according to the PTS PED. Karundadasa was introducing his own topic, and was not writing about bare phenomena, per se, but the statement seems relevant. What has to be in place in order for an experience of "bare phenomena arising and perishing according to their conditions?" I see where the word "meditation" is used when "bhaavanaa" is meant. Most seem to consider "meditation" to be something one can do. But the term "meditation" is also said to be a rather crude or inexact rendering of bhaavanaa. Nyanatiloka defines bhaavanaa as "mental development, literally calling into existence." The PTS PED defines it as "dwelling, sphere, world, realm." I wonder about the sense implied by such words as "sphere" or "realm" or phrases "calling into existence." There is, at least in the use of the verb "calling," an implied sort of act. Nyanatiloka goes on to note that there are two kinds of bhaavanaa: the development of tranquility (samatha-bhaavanaa) and the development of insight (vipassana-bhaavanaa). Here in the Forum I more often read where formal "meditation" is considered to be about sitting and jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana is not often referred to as meditation, yet it is a kind of bhaavanaa, is it not (vipassana-bhaavanaa)? This is where your earlier point comes to mind. The perfection of the jhaanas (samatha-bhaavanaa) leads to a rebirth in the Brahma realms. This would accord with the sense of bhaavanaa as realm or sphere. I can see where an acceptance of the literality of rebirth might be helpful in order to accept that these two kinds of bhaavanaa are truly different. There would be a one-to-one correlation between the jhaana realm of samatha-bhaavanaa, and the Brahma realms. I don't quite see the same for vipassana-bhaavaana, but what I do see is that it is bhaavanaa. I accept that the depth of anatta does mean that there is no one to practise. I'll stop. This is likely all confused since I was coming and going while doing other things. Can you offer any clarifications or corrections to these things I'm trying to say? Anyway, thanks for the chance to discuss! With loving kindness, Scott. 89) #61672 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. scottduncan2 Dear James, The below is distressing: J: "I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in the mood to continue this discussion. I think I will bow out." Please accept my heart-felt wishes and deepest concern. I hope things can go well. With loving kindness, Scott. 29) #61673 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/20/06 10:13:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > First of all, I spoke of distinguishing, not separating. > Secondly, it > >would appear that you see physical analysis as "natural" and > mental analysis > >as "artificial". I don't share that perspective. > >-------------------------------------- > > > I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a > major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in > the mood to continue this discussion. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I would think not! I'm so sorry, James. Of course, I hope that the diagnosis will be negative, or, if not, that they get it all, and that you will have many years yet to spend with her. In any case, May your mom weather the operation well, my friend. Conversations and theory don't mean very much in the face of matters of genuine concern, do they! ------------------------------------------- I think I will bow out. > > However, you could read this article on the khandas which mirrors my > position on the matter: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/khandha.html ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course I will. --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ================== Be well, James. May things go easily and favorably for your mother and for you. With metta, Howard 29) #61674 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: object and feeling ken_aitch Hi Herman, ---------- KH: > > Do you subscribe to that sort of teaching? Do you see a traveller on the Path? Does it matter to you that your version of the Dhamma differs from the original Theravada? > > H: > I think of subscribing to a teaching, any teaching, as a sell-out of personal responsibility. Of course there are degrees of subscription, but anyone who sees a "faith enterprise" as a coming-to-know-things-as-they-are is seriously deluded. Faith is always guaranteed of finding its object. Ask any faith-driven Muslim, Christian, Buddhist etc , and of course they are all dead right in their conviction. And in total disagreement with each other. Hmmm, need I say more? ----------- That is just a normal, commonsense statement that could be made anywhere. But this is a Dhamma discussion, so yes; you do need to say more. Before I can offer any constructive comment, I need at least to know which absolute reality you are referring to by the word, faith. ----------------------- H: > "Traveller, there is no Path. Paths are made by walking". What profound wisdom, and how curious that a Spanish person could say this. The Buddha must have visited the Iberian Peninsula at some time, it is the only possible explanation. :-) ----------------------- Sorry to be a complete philistine, but what does it mean? I suppose it means, "Just do it!" but what does that mean? Is there a traveller (a self) or are there just paramattha dhammas? --------------------------------- H: > More seriously, the Buddha is seriously spot on in his analysis of action. People are defined by what they do. What folks do defines themselves. So in answer to your question, yes, I do see travellers on paths, all of their own making. That some of these travellers deny that they act is neither here nor there, that is the path they are actively crafting for themselves. --------------------------------- Again, which absolute realities are you referring to? Give me something I can comment on. ----------- H: > Now to your point about being bothered. The basic fallacy in the proposition is that "original Theravada" exists as an absolute, and that you know what that absolute is. This is where the delusion of faith comes in. ------------ The four noble truths are absolute. How are we to learn about them if not from the original texts? Have a good weekend. Blow all those cobwebs (concepts) away, and come back with a head full of namas and rupas. Then we can talk Dhamma. Ken H 39) #61675 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Motivation sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, (All*) --- Daniel wrote: > Hi all, good day! > > Unfortunately I am meanwhile unable to join your more learned > discussions, so I > will just ask a simple question... ... S: Simple questions are always good to hear! I enjoy them and I think you're very sensible to start your own threads and ignore others which seem too complicated. .... > In buddhism , the motivation is considered to be more important than the > act. > Why is it so? Can you give me some examples that would demonstrate it? > Can you > give me some examples to think over? .... S: Nina gave one example. Here's another one: One child might avoid stealing his friends' toys at school because he's afraid he'll be caught out. Meanwhile, another child might avoid doing so because he really appreciates that it's wrong to take things that don't belong to him. The result may seem to be the same, but the motivations are quite different. The first one may steal later when he thinks no one's watching, but the second one won't. Or an adult might smile as part of their job, but without any sincerity or friendliness. Another may smile with metta and kindness. Sometimes the effects on the others may not be different -- the first children keep their toys and the recipient recieves a nice smile, but the habit and kamma of the child and adult involved in the acts will be very different. Why not find some examples you like to share with us? Also, in Useful Posts in the files (on the home page), pls look at posts under: "Kamma-beginners", "New to the list", "Abhidhamma-beginners" Metta, Sarah p.s *All, If anyone else has more to add, pls reply to this message or Nina's. We've deleted the original post from the archives because it contained the entire digest for the day as Nina referred to and archive space is limited. For those who receive mail in digest form, pls take extra care to trim! (Connie, it was #61649). For v.long articles (more than 2 or 3 pages), pls also use links or post extracts for similar reasons. ==================== 2) #61676 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Motivation sarahprocter... Oops, we hadn't seen Larry's response which also got deleted by yahoo, so I'm reposting it from my in-box. Sorry, Larry. S. ****** LBIDD@... Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:02:56 -0600 Daniel: "In buddhism , the motivation is considered to be more important than the act. Why is it so? Can you give me some examples that would demonstrate it? Can you give me some examples to think over?" Hi Daniel, At dsg nothing is ever simple or uncontroversial. For example, I don't know how to analyze "importance", but what is important is a very interesting question. I believe that, strictly speaking, motivation (chanda) and volition (cetana) have the same ethical value, wholesome or unwholesome. Then there is the case of kamma formation and kamma result. I act with greed or generosity and the result for "me", i.e. this continuum, will correspond appropriately, perhaps in the next life-time. I act with generosity in this life and perhaps in the next life I will have what is considered "good fortune". However, the immediate consequence of the act my be fortunate or unfortunate for myself and others because of past kamma, perhaps in a previous life. When we act it is really difficult to say what will happen. But we can know our motivations. Larry 2) #61677 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a > major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in > the mood to continue this discussion. .... S: I'm very sorry to hear this news and can imagine the turmoil you and your family are in right now. Please let us know how it goes and how your parents and you are doing. Pls let us know if we can give any support in anyway. Best wishes to you all, Metta, Sarah ======== 29) #61678 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:28 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 491- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Chapter30 Equanimity (tatramajjhattatå)contd When there is equanimity there is neither elation nor depression. The object which is experienced is viewed with impartiality and neutrality, just as a charioteer treats with impartiality his well-trained horses. Equanimity effects the balance of the citta and the other cetasikas it arises together with. There is no balance of mind when akusala citta arises, when we are cross, greedy, avaricious or ignorant. Whereas when we are generous, observe morality (síla), develop calm or develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa, there is balance of mind. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== 1) #61679 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard and James No offense meant but I really got a hard time trying to understand what Karunadasa trying to say. I would appreciate if you could explain what is it about Abhidhamma that Karunadasa does not agree with. thanks Ken O #61680 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard --------------------------- Howard: No, there are no things called cittas that perform functions. Every citta is nothing other than the experiencing of some object or other. Every citta is an action/activity, the knowing of something. That's all. It is not something that performs a function. Some thing that performs a function is an agent. k: We cannot said that there is no such things called cittas because Buddha did said there is consciouness aggregates, a dhamma. It is a dhamma that performs experiencing. Likewise, we cannot said there is no such thing as feelings. In the suttas it is stated feeling feels. So are we saying that it is the experiencing of feels that exist but there is no feeling that feels. It is this feeling that we call a dhamma in Abhidhamma. Cheers Ken O #61681 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ashkenn2k Hi Matheesha M: ..then this shows how satipatthana leads to panna. Being very > aware/mindful means to detect patterns in what is being observed. > For example ancient man understood that seasons were impermanent – > they only had to be aware. Impermanence is not a an exclusive > Buddhist understanding, it is a human one. But to see it moment to > moment is Buddhist. All that is required is to SEE moment to moment > > at what is happening, book knowledge is not essential. Then the > pattern of impermanence becomes apparent. Realizing anicca leads to > > realizing dukkha and subsequently annata (helped by SEEING > causality, which is yet another human understanding only becoming > Buddhist be seeing it moment to moment). Book knowledge is not > required. It is not a case of panna arising out of nowhere. It is > what we already know in other contexts (impermanance and causailty > on a bigger/day to day level) applied moment to moment. It is this > new application which has earthshaking implications for the > observer. k: I dont understand are you saying now I am typing and looking at the monitor, isn't that seeing momemt to moment, how come I cannot be enlighted? It is not seeing moment to moment that lead to the enlightment, it is the knowledge of anatta that is that differentiate Buddha dhamma and the rest. Ancient wise one could see anicca and dukkha as they are visible but they cannot see anatta. Anatta or simple DO is the domain of the Buddha. The question is, is there a rudimentary level of Samadhi > development which then branches off in many directions into samatha and vipassana. I believe there is, as the same word Samadhi is used to designate a singular quality of mind in all these instances. This > is what makes it possible for samatha to lead to vipassana and vice versa in a fluid manner. k: Samadhi is concentration. concentration on singularity or a single object successively. So when the mind looking at impermenance and looking at suffering and anatta, could we describe as samadhi. Vipassana does not mean samadhi, is just insight. Cheers Ken O #61682 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: object and feeling ken_aitch Hi Howard, I have a feeling we have said all we want to say on this subject. But just to tidy up a few loose ends: ---------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > I don't know why you wish to restrict the word 'event' to apply only to pa~n~natti, but I do not. Consciousness is a very real activity/event that actually occurs and is, indeed, conditioned. ---------------------------------------- I might have introduced a red herring. However, I was simply trying to understand the point you were making. For some reason, you have been using the term event instead of citta (or nama, or dhamma). I think I see now it was simply to emphasise that dhammas were not doers (in any sense of the word whatsoever). I thought you were trying to say something more than that, and so I have probably been barking up the wrong tree. ------------ KH: > > That's not how I remember the sutta. I'm pretty sure Sati's fault was purely in seeing citta as something that carried over. There was/is no problem with saying that citta experienced an object. > > H: > I never said there was any problem with being aware of consciousness. ------------- Hmmm. There seems to be another breakdown in communication here. But let's leave it. ----------------------- KH: > > If I understood correctly, his objection to 'plurality' stemmed from the Mahayana doctrine of non-duality. > > H: > It has nothing to do with Mahayana. It stems from anatta. ----------------------- OK, but does non-duality form any part in your reasoning at all? (I've just had another quick look at the article: it mentions duality four times.) ------------------------------- H: > BTW, it is a cheap shot to attempt to put something down by shouting "Mahayana"! ------------------------------- True, but if non-duality had been behind all this, that would have been a relevant point to make. ----------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > I do not recall his speaking that way. But if he has, he is wrong. And the issue isn't one of non-duality per se, but of agency and actors. There is acting, but no actor, Ken. ----------------------------------------- To be honest, I don't remember much about the B Bodhi article, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. We read it out at a Cooran meeting, and I remember being relieved to learn that non-duality was irrelevant to anything Theravada. I am pretty sure (but not certain) that the article specifically dealt with this business of citta 'experiencing' an object. I think Nina has given the definitive explanation of the Abhidhamma-and-commentary position on this. If you aren't convinced by now you probably never will be. :-) But it has been an interesting exercise. At least now we know why you use those strange sounding terms, "own being" and "self existent." Ken H PS: I sympathise with your keyboard difficulties. Mine is doing the same thing: it doesn't like making tees or spaces. They are the most often used keys, of course, and the firstto wear out. I didn't do that on purpose! :-) 39) #61683 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Feeding up Enthusiastic Energy ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Feeding the Energy Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, exactly & even so are the Seven Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening and feeding of the very completion by advance of any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening? There are these 3 elements of: Initiative, Launching and Endurance ... Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the arising of any unarisen Energy Link to Awakening and also feeding of the gradual fulfilment of any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs the emergence of any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Energy Link from reaching any fulfilment by deliberate development? There are these three elements of: Initiative, Launching and Endurance ... not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents any unarisen Energy Link to Awakening from arising and also blocks any already arisen Energy Link to Awakening from reaching any complete fulfilment by mental training and development... Comments from the classical commentaries: Enthusiastic and eager exertion is the characteristic of the Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga). Effort producing advantage is the purpose of the Energy quality. Activity overcoming mental slack is the manifestation of this Energy Link to Awakening. While too lazy to do what should be done simply ask yourself: What is missing here??? Is it the element of mental initiative wishing to get up that is missing here now, or is it the element of actual bodily launching into effort that is missing here now, or is it the element of endurance, persistence, perseverance and stamina that is missing here now? This discrimination - in itself - has the capacity to gradually stir up and induce energy! Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Energy Link to Awakening are: 1: Reflection on the long-term dangers of inactivity such as hell... 2: Reviewing the benefits to be gained by energetic praxis. 3: Remembering that no journey can ever be ended by a lazy one. 4: Giving credit to the good givers of the alms-food received. 5: Honouring the Greatness of the prior efforts of the Master. 6: Honouring the Greatness of the prior efforts of the Lineage. 7: Removing laxity by perceiving light, change posture & open air. 8: Avoidance of slack, lazy, sluggish, negligent & careless people. 9: Friendship with enthusiastic, energetic and persistent people. 10: Reviewing the Four Right Efforts often and systematically. 11: Commitment & resolute determination to arouse more energy... There is bodily energy and there is mental energy! Both are a crucial for all progress towards any advantageous state. Awakening is Waking Up from sloth & daydreaming! Energy is the Fifth Mental Perfection: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm Curing Laziness and lethargy: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Curing_Lethargy_and_Laziness.htm Get Moving Right Now: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Arousal_Get_Up_and_Going.htm Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 1) #61684 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/21/06 4:58:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard and James > > No offense meant but I really got a hard time trying to understand > what Karunadasa trying to say. I would appreciate if you could > explain what is it about Abhidhamma that Karunadasa does not agree > with. > > thanks > Ken O > ========================== Ken, wasn't at all under the impression that Karunadasa *had* any disagreements with the Abhidhamma. I think that his exposition of the dhamma theory, which he considers a commentarial amplification of Abhidhammic notions, is just that - his presentation of what he believes that set of principles to be, and I think his main aim is to show that the dhamma theory is not in the slightest substantialist or atta-bound, but is perfectly in line with the anattic, su~n~natic thrust of the Buddhadhamma. With metta, Howard #61685 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/21/06 5:26:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --------------------------- > Howard: > No, there are no things called cittas that perform functions. Every > citta is nothing other than the experiencing of some object or other. > Every citta is an action/activity, the knowing of something. That's > all. It is not something that performs a function. Some thing that > performs a function is an agent. > > k: We cannot said that there is no such things called cittas because > Buddha did said there is consciouness aggregates, a dhamma. It is a > dhamma that performs experiencing. Likewise, we cannot said there > is no such thing as feelings. In the suttas it is stated feeling > feels. So are we saying that it is the experiencing of feels that > exist but there is no feeling that feels. It is this feeling that we > call a dhamma in Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, you need to read what I said more carefully. Of course there are cittas. But there is no "dhamma that performs experiencing". The experiencing IS the dhamma, it IS the citta. If you cannot follow that distinction, then there is nothing I can do in making you understand me. Sometimes the locution "Feeling feels" is used in the English rendering of the suttas. The meaning is that feeling is just the operation of feeling, i.e., that there is no more to feeling than feeling. Instead, however, the English translation "Feeling feels" is most unfortunately suggestive of feeling not being an operation, but of some *thing* that performs that operation. That, exactly, is agency terminology, and it is *wrong*! The real harm in the terminology is to those people who are very vulnerable to atta-view, because they will allow it to reinforce their tendency to reify. --------------------------------------- > > > > Cheers > Ken O > > ======================= With metta, Howard #61686 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/21/06 5:53:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I have a feeling we have said all we want to say on this subject. But > just to tidy up a few loose ends: > ---------------------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >I don't know why you wish to restrict the word 'event' to apply > only to pa~n~natti, but I do not. Consciousness is a very real > activity/event that actually occurs and is, indeed, conditioned. > ---------------------------------------- > > I might have introduced a red herring. However, I was simply trying to > understand the point you were making. For some reason, you have been > using the term event instead of citta (or nama, or dhamma). I think I > see now it was simply to emphasise that dhammas were not doers (in any > sense of the word whatsoever). > -------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent, Ken! You have it exactly!! I'm very pleased. (It is very pleasant to be understood. :-) ------------------------------------- I thought you were trying to say> > something more than that, and so I have probably been barking up the > wrong tree. ------------------------------------ Howard: It this moment, I think we're both standing in front of ther Bodhi tree, and admiring it. :-) -------------------------------- > > ------------ > KH: >>That's not how I remember the sutta. I'm pretty sure Sati's > fault was purely in seeing citta as something that carried over. There > was/is no problem with saying that citta experienced an object. > >> > > H: >I never said there was any problem with being aware of consciousness. > ------------- > > Hmmm. There seems to be another breakdown in communication here. But > let's leave it. -------------------------------------- Howard: But let me add that you are right to with regard to Sati's error, though I think my point was correct also. He was thinking of consciousness not as an activity that arises and ceases, with subsequent repeated arisings and ceasings of new instances of knowing, but as a thing/substance (a self/soul) that spans time, even bridging lifetimes. -------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------- > KH: >>If I understood correctly, his objection to 'plurality' > stemmed from the Mahayana doctrine of non-duality. > >> > > H: >It has nothing to do with Mahayana. It stems from anatta. > ----------------------- > > OK, but does non-duality form any part in your reasoning at all? > > (I've just had another quick look at the article: it mentions duality > four times.) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, there is a duality that I think is incorrect with regard to knowing. The proposition that a citta is one thing - a knower, and knowing is another thing - the operation the knower engages in, is a duality that I think is false and dangerous. The citta and the knowing are one and the same. ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > H: >BTW, it is a cheap shot to attempt to put something down by > shouting "Mahayana"! > ------------------------------- > > True, but if non-duality had been behind all this, that would have > been a relevant point to make. -------------------------------------- Howard: I suppose that depends on what "non-duality" one has in mind. We need to zero in on facts, not slogans, and not let names like 'non-duality' get in the way. Just to make matters clear, I believe that phenomena are distinguishable and that what is distinguishable *should* be distinguished! ------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >I do not recall his speaking that way. But if he has, he is > wrong. And the issue isn't one of non-duality per se, but of agency > and actors. There is acting, but no actor, Ken. > ----------------------------------------- > > To be honest, I don't remember much about the B Bodhi article, so I > probably shouldn't have mentioned it. We read it out at a Cooran > meeting, and I remember being relieved to learn that non-duality was > irrelevant to anything Theravada. I am pretty sure (but not certain) > that the article specifically dealt with this business of citta > 'experiencing' an object. > > I think Nina has given the definitive explanation of the > Abhidhamma-and-commentary position on this. If you aren't convinced by > now you probably never will be. :-) But it has been an interesting > exercise. At least now we know why you use those strange sounding > terms, "own being" and "self existent." -------------------------------------- Howard: What is it, exactly, in this regard, that you think you know about my reasons? ------------------------------------ > > Ken H > > PS: I sympathise with your keyboard difficulties. Mine is doing the > same thing: it doesn't like making tees or spaces. They are the most > often used keys, of course, and the firstto wear out. > > I didn't do that on purpose! :-) ---------------------------------- Howard: I KNOW!! It's very familiar to me!! LOL! ================= With metta, Howard #61687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas and functions. nilovg Hi Howard, Function is the translation of Pali kicca: gerund of karoti: what has to be done, task, duty. You yourself use the term activity, do you like that better? That is OK too. Why I bring up niyama: to show that there is a fixed order of cittas, citta niyama, within a process and this order cannot be altered. Thus, the functions or activities if you like that word, follow their own order and no person can do anything. You yourself quoted from Nyanatiloka: phenomena roll on. If people understand niyama they will not think of an agent that performs a function. Citta cognizes an object, and this can be called a function. Javanacittas are either kusala or akusala, and the sobhana cetasikas or akusala cetasikas that accompany citta cause it to be so. These cittas also cognize an object but they do it in the wholesome way or unwholesome way. They perform the function of javana. Once you were born, the first citta in life performed the function of relinking. You could not choose what object you experienced, it is the same object as the object of the last javanacittas in the preceding life. Also all bhavangacittas in this life experience that object which is like an echo, as you quoted. All beyond control. When you think of an activity that is conditioned you may not be so averse from the term function. Now to apply this in daily life: you are seeing now, you have to see, you cannot alter this. Phenomena roll on, it is time for the function of seeing. Then you read something you dislike (for example my words), well it is time for citta with aversion that performs the function of javana. Phenomena roll on. Whatever citta experiences, whatever happens, it is just the right time for that, citta niyama. Nina. P.S. You dislike: citta has a function, you say: it is a function. Right, seeing is a function. Of what? Of citta. Op 20-jul-2006, om 22:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ----------------------------- > Howard: > Cittas are not things that experirnce objects - they are the > experiencings. > ----------------------------------- > Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own > > > function. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand what that means, Nina. A citta is an experiencing > of an object, nothing more or less. > > --------------------------------- > For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience > > > visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of > seeing, > > and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that > > process, which perform their own function. > ------------------------------- > There is a certain fixed > > > order of cittas, citta niyama, within a process and this order > cannot > > be altered. > > ------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes. It is a function, not a thing that HAS a function. > ----------------------------- > Howard: > No, there are no things called cittas that perform functions. Every > citta is nothing other than the experiencing of some object or > other. Every > citta is an action/activity, the knowing of something. That's all. > It is not some > thing that performs a function. Some thing that performs a function > is an > agent > ----------------------------------- > As you have described it - a thing that performs a function, the citta > is the agent! > ----------------------------------- > > . > > #61688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling nilovg Hi Howard, Ken H, haha, I enjoy your dialogue and hope the two of you will not stop. it is in good spirit, with humor. Nina. Op 21-jul-2006, om 15:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Ken H wrote: > I think Nina has given the definitive explanation of the > > Abhidhamma-and-commentary position on this. If you aren't > convinced by > > now you probably never will be. :-) But it has been an interesting > > exercise. At least now we know why you use those strange sounding > > terms, "own being" and "self existent." > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > What is it, exactly, in this regard, that you think you know about my > reasons? > ------------------------------------ #61689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi James, I am sorry to hear this. Best wishes for your mother and take courage, Nina. Op 21-jul-2006, om 4:12 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a > major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in > the mood to continue this discussion. > > > #61690 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi KenO, > Hi Matheesha > > M: ..then this shows how satipatthana leads to panna. Being very > > aware/mindful means to detect patterns in what is being observed. > > For example ancient man understood that seasons were impermanent – > > they only had to be aware. Impermanence is not a an exclusive > > Buddhist understanding, it is a human one. But to see it moment to > > moment is Buddhist. All that is required is to SEE moment to moment > > > at what is happening, book knowledge is not essential. Then the > > pattern of impermanence becomes apparent. Realizing anicca leads to > > > realizing dukkha and subsequently annata (helped by SEEING > > causality, which is yet another human understanding only becoming > > Buddhist be seeing it moment to moment). Book knowledge is not > > required. It is not a case of panna arising out of nowhere. It is > > what we already know in other contexts (impermanance and causailty > > on a bigger/day to day level) applied moment to moment. It is this > > new application which has earthshaking implications for the > > observer. > > k: I dont understand are you saying now I am typing and looking at > the monitor, isn't that seeing momemt to moment, how come I cannot be > enlighted? It is not seeing moment to moment that lead to the > enlightment, it is the knowledge of anatta that is that differentiate > Buddha dhamma and the rest. Ancient wise one could see anicca and > dukkha as they are visible but they cannot see anatta. Anatta or > simple DO is the domain of the Buddha. M: Looking at the monitor and typing is not seeing moment to moment. A vague general impression of impermanance,which anyone can have, is not vipassana. When you can hear the arising of a sound, changing and finally passing away, when you can see the arising of a image, see it change and see it pass away, you are experiencing vipassana. It is experiencing how reality itself is created, how the 'world' is created. It is like watching the world under a microscope or in slow motion. The difference between this and normal experiencing is that in vipassana impermanance is 'in your face' because everything is constantly arising and passing away in the present moment. This type of repetitive exposure to panna is required over hours if not days to erode our thickened avijja. Normal experiencing only prolongs our sense of continuity and permanance. When reality is seen as fragmented, arising and passing away, panna sets in. As I said in what I wrote, seeing anicca and causality are essential to realising anatta. Again lack of a self is nothing new. We wouldnt look at a cardboard box and say there is a being there, like we do with animals/humans. The concept is not new. The concept in a human context is. To see that is what vipassana provides the opportunity for. If a something hits a cardboard box and it moves, we dont think it has a self ('the box moved on its volition'), because we can clearly see the causality in action. The problem with humans is that we cannot easily see the causality in action. This is what vipassana provides. We cannot easily see the noncontinuity of everything, this is what vipassana provides. All that is required is to SEE. Then you will understand. > M: The question is, is there a rudimentary level of Samadhi > > development which then branches off in many directions into > samatha and vipassana. I believe there is, as the same word Samadhi > is used to designate a singular quality of mind in all these > instances. This > > is what makes it possible for samatha to lead to vipassana and vice > > versa in a fluid manner. > > k: Samadhi is concentration. concentration on singularity or a > single object successively. So when the mind looking at impermenance > and looking at suffering and anatta, could we describe as samadhi. > Vipassana does not mean samadhi, is just insight M: I think that abhidhamma teaches that there is samadhi when panna arises .. even as a common factor in every thought moment? In either case, the buddha says, as I have quoted, a concentrated mind, gives rise to panna. How can these two coexist? Only one thing can be EXPERIENCED at a time. Things can coexist, without being experienced. with metta Matheesha #61691 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object and feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/21/06 10:18:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, Ken H, > haha, I enjoy your dialogue and hope the two of you will not stop. it > is in good spirit, with humor. > Nina. > ==================== Thanks, Nina. Yes, our recent conversations have exactly been filled with good spirit and humor, and with mutual understanding. It is a great pleasure! :-) With metta, Howard #61692 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas and functions. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/21/06 10:09:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Function is the translation of Pali kicca: gerund of karoti: what has > to be done, task, duty. > You yourself use the term activity, do you like that better? That is > OK too. -------------------------------------- Howard: Either is fine, and I have no problem with those terms. My point, and I don't understand why there is any difficulty understanding it [I am so happy that KenH *does* follow me!], is that namas like vi~n~nana, vedana, and sa~n~na are not "things that engage in activities" or "things that function or have functions", but, instead, *are* activities of specific sorts. ------------------------------------ > Why I bring up niyama: to show that there is a fixed order of > cittas, citta niyama, within a process and this order cannot > be altered. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Did somebody question that? I didn't. What has that to do with my point about not making namas into doers? ------------------------------------ Thus, the functions or activities if you like that > > word, follow their own order and no person can do anything. > ----------------------------------- Howard: So what? Who thinks otherwise? There is no person, literally, to do anything at all. That is a given as far as I'm concerned. It has no bearing on this matter. --------------------------------- You > > yourself quoted from Nyanatiloka: phenomena roll on. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes. So? What point are you makng, Nina? You seem to be trying to knock down a straw man that you set up. I don't get it. ------------------------------- > If people understand niyama they will not think of an agent that > performs a function. ------------------------------- Howard: If people stop using agency terminology, that will go a long way to stop them from thinking in terms of an agent that performs a function. That is my point. ------------------------------- > Citta cognizes an object, and this can be called a function. ----------------------------- Howard: A citta is the cognizing of an object. It is not a thing that cognizes an object. It is not an actor or doer. It is an acting, a doing. ------------------------------ Howard: Nina, I'm letting the rest of your post go by without further comment, because it is just getting to the point of repetition. For some reason, you do not follow me, and I think that this matter has been overdone at this point. I am unable to clarify it further. I will make just one more comment at the end, an important one, I think. -------------------------------- > Javanacittas are either kusala or akusala, and the sobhana cetasikas > or akusala cetasikas that accompany citta cause it to be so. These > cittas also cognize an object but they do it in the wholesome way or > unwholesome way. They perform the function of javana. > Once you were born, the first citta in life performed the function of > relinking. You could not choose what object you experienced, it is > the same object as the object of the last javanacittas in the > preceding life. Also all bhavangacittas in this life experience that > object which is like an echo, as you quoted. All beyond control. > When you think of an activity that is conditioned you may not be so > averse from the term function. > Now to apply this in daily life: you are seeing now, you have to see, > you cannot alter this. Phenomena roll on, it is time for the function > of seeing. Then you read something you dislike (for example my > words), well it is time for citta with aversion that performs the > function of javana. Phenomena roll on. > Whatever citta experiences, whatever happens, it is just the right > time for that, citta niyama. > Nina. > P.S. You dislike: citta has a function, you say: it is a function. > Right, seeing is a function. Of what? Of citta. ------------------------------------ Howard: It is clear here to me, Nina: You cannot conceive of an acting/activity without there being an actor. Inasmuch as that is the case, any further attempts on my part are likely to be fruitless, I think. ================== With metta, Howard #61693 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:40 am Subject: Thanks buddhatrue Hi Scott, Howard, Sarah, and Nina, Thanks for your good wishes. I will let you know what happens. What is most distressing to me is that my parents, like many Americans, don't have any savings and medical care in the US is outrageously expensive. I do hope that things go well. Metta, James #61694 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/21/06 12:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Scott, Howard, Sarah, and Nina, > > Thanks for your good wishes. I will let you know what happens. What > is most distressing to me is that my parents, like many Americans, > don't have any savings and medical care in the US is outrageously > expensive. I do hope that things go well. > > Metta, > James > =================== James, do they have no medical and surgical insurance? Or not enough? I just read an article somewhere to the effect that a number of U.S. companies are arranging for employees to get operations (at good facilities with highly competent surgeons) in other countries (including India), because the total cost of air fare and the surgery & hospitalization comes to far, far less than the cost of having the operation done in the U.S. I'm not urging that, but I thought it would make sense to mention it to you. With metta, Howard #61695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:25 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 30 nilovg Dear friends, In classifying lobha-múla-cittas there is yet another distinction to be made. Lobha-múla-cittas can be ``unprompted'', asa"nkhårika, or ``prompted'', sasa"nkhårika. ``Asa"nkhårika'' can be translated as ``unprompted``, ``not induced'', or ``spontaneous''; sasa"nkhårika can be translated as ``prompted'' or ``induced''. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 91) states about lobha-múla-citta that it is ``sasa"nkhårika'' ``when it is with consciousness which is sluggish and urged on.'' The lobha-múla-cittas which are sasa"nkhårika can be prompted by the advice or request of someone else, or they arise induced by one's own previous consideration. Even when they are induced by one's own consideration, they are sasa"nkhårika; the cittas are ``sluggish and urged on''. Of the four lobha-múla-cittas arising with di.t.thi, two types are unprompted, asa"nkhårika, and two types are prompted, sasa"nkhårika. As regards the lobha-múla-cittas arising without di.t.thi, two types are unprompted, asa"nkhårika, and two types are prompted, sasa"nkhårika. Thus, of the eight types of lobha-múla-cittas, four types are unprompted and four types are prompted. It is useful to learn the Påli terms and their meaning, because the English translation does not render the meaning of realities very clearly. The eight types of lobha-múla-citta are: 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, asa"nkhårikam eka.m). 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhårikam eka.m). 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhårikam ekaÿ). 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagataÿ, di.t.thigata-vippayuttaÿ, sasa"nkhårikam eka.m). 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, asa"nkhårikam eka.m). 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhårikam eka.m). 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhårikam eka.m). 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, di.t.thigata-vippayutta.m, sasa"nkhårikam eka.m). As we have seen, lobha-múla-cittas can be unprompted or prompted. The Atthasåliní (Book II, Part IX, chapter III, 225) gives an example of lobha-múla-cittas, accompanied by di.t.thi, which are prompted. A son of a noble family marries a woman who has wrong views and therefore he associates with people who have wrong views. Gradually he accepts those wrong views and then they are pleasing to him. Lobha-múla-cittas without di.t.thi which are sasa"nkhårika arise, for example, when one, though at first not attached to alcoholic drink, takes pleasure in it after someone else persuades one to drink. As we have seen, lobha-múla-cittas can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Lobha-múla-cittas without di.t.thi, accompanied by pleasant feeling, can arise, for example, when we enjoy ourselves while seeing a beautiful colour or hearing an agreeable sound. At such moments we can be attached without wrong view about realities. When we enjoy beautiful clothes, go to the cinema, or laugh and talk with others about pleasurable things there can be many moments of enjoyment without the idea of self, but there can also be moments with di.t.thi, moments of clinging to a ``self''. Lobha-múla-cittas without di.t.thi, accompanied by indifferent feeling, may arise, for example, when we like to stand up, or like to take hold of different objects. Since we generally do not have happy feeling with these actions, there may be lobha with indifferent feeling at such moments. Thus we see that lobha often motivates the most common actions of our daily life. ***** Nina. #61696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:29 am Subject: letters from Nina 12. nilovg Dear friends, After Nandaka had finished his sermon and the nuns had departed, the Buddha said to the monks: '...although these nuns were delighted with Nandaka's teaching on Dhamma, their aspirations were not fulfilled.' We then read: Then the Lord addressed the venerable Nandaka, saying: 'Well then, Nandaka, you may exhort these nuns with this same exhortation again tomorrow.' We read that after Nandaka had spoken the same sermon to the nuns for the second time, the Buddha said: '...these nuns were delighted with Nandaka's teaching on Dhamma and their aspirations were fulfilled. She who is the last nun of these five hundred nuns is a stream-attainer (sotapanna), not liable to the Downfall; she is assured, bound for self-awakening.' You might think that the nuns had understood the impermanence of conditioned realities already the first time, but there are many degrees of realizing the truth. Because of Nandaka's sermon, which he repeated, there was a condition for those who had not attained enlightenment to become sotapanna, and for others who were already ariyan saints to attain higher stages of enlightenment in so far as they were ripe for it. Thus we can see that listening to the teachings or reading them are conditions for mindfulness and the development of pañña, and even for attaining enlightenment. In the above quoted sutta we read about the dissecting of a cow. When we join realities together into a 'whole', we take for 'something', for 'self'. We are not taken in by objects which are 'dissected' into elements, that is, when pañña realizes visible object as rupa, not self; hardness as rupa, not self; hearing as nama, not self, and so on as to the other realities presenting themselves through the six doors. ****** Nina. #61697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidharma origins nilovg Dear Charles D, No not reincarnation. The Buddha also spoke of his past lives, and during those lives, as a Bodhisatta, he developed all the perfections. Cittas succeed one another and thus different tendencies are accumulated. Nina. Op 20-jul-2006, om 22:55 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > When you say, “…because they had developed it for many aeons in the > past.” > You are giving me the impression that you are trying to explain > your-self > from the standpoint of reincarnation. This would contradict your usual > stance derived from the No-self view based on the Abidharma. #61698 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:18 pm Subject: bhaavana nilovg Dear Scott, you made very good points in your post to Jon, and he will answer you, but I would just like to butt in if I may. ----- Scott quotes Jon: Jon: "I agree with the characterisation of clear comprehension as wisdom, but I am wary about the mention of 'bare mindfulness' if that is meant as a reference to a form of 'practice',... --------- Scott: When you state, then, that you "don't think there is such a thing as 'bare mindfulness' where the object of the mindfulness is a dhamma," I understand this to be a statement against the possibility of making such an event occur. -------- N: Yes, Kh Sujin always stresses, everything is dhamma, meaning this, what you said. you put that very well. Nobody can make it occur. --------- S: Stating that only accompanied by wisdom can such minfulness occur, I understand you to be saying that this is a possible arising, given the right conditions, but cannot be controlled or directed. In fact, right near the beginning, Karunadasa states: "The Buddha had taught that to see the world correctly is to see - not persons and substances - but bare phenomena (suddhadhamma)arising and perishing in accordance with their conditions." ------- N: Here you got a sentence of Karunadasa that is well expressed. ----------- S: What has to be in place in order for an experience of "bare phenomena arising and perishing according to their conditions?" ------- N: A long process of developing understanding of all these phenomana as they appear one at a time through the six doorways, and this without an idea of trying to be aware or controlling. Right from the beginning one should understand this so that one does not deviate from the Path. -------------- S: I see where the word "meditation" is used when "bhaavanaa" is meant. Most seem to consider "meditation" to be something one can do. Nyanatiloka defines bhaavanaa as "mental development, literally calling into existence." ------ N: It is also translated as making become. -------- S: Nyanatiloka goes on to note that there are two kinds of bhaavanaa: the development of tranquility (samatha-bhaavanaa) and the development of insight (vipassana-bhaavanaa). Here in the Forum I more often read where formal "meditation" is considered to be about sitting and jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana is not often referred to as meditation, yet it is a kind of bhaavanaa, is it not (vipassana-bhaavanaa)? -------- N: Yes. Also studying the teachings and explaining them, discussing them, is kusala included in bhaavanaa. Your activity at this moment is bhaavanaa. ----------- S: ...There would be a one-to-one correlation between the jhaana realm of samatha-bhaavanaa, and the Brahma realms. I don't quite see the same for vipassana-bhaavaana, but what I do see is that it is bhaavanaa. I accept that the depth of anatta does mean that there is no one to practise. ------ N: Well said. This is the right beginning. People ask: but what can one do? Listening and considering the Dhamma condition the growth of understanding so that there will be direct awareness and understanding. But also, developing all the perfections, all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind in daily life. These are the necessary supports of paññaa. Daana, siila, mettaa, renunciation, all the perfections are needed, as amedicine on the long road we have to go. We are like sick people and need medicine. Nina. #61699 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks buddhatrue Hi Howard (Scott, Sarah, and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > =================== > James, do they have no medical and surgical insurance? Or not enough? > I just read an article somewhere to the effect that a number of U.S. > companies are arranging for employees to get operations (at good facilities > with highly competent surgeons) in other countries (including India), because the > total cost of air fare and the surgery & hospitalization comes to far, far > less than the cost of having the operation done in the U.S. I'm not urging that, > but I thought it would make sense to mention it to you. I just got news from home that it isn't cancer, thank goodness! My mom will have the operation in two weeks. Yes, she does have insurance through her work but it probably won't cover everything, and if it was cancer they probably would cover even less. After all, insurance companies serve their own interests. This may seem off-topic for a Buddhist group, but it really isn't. When we look at the world around us and see completely unfair conditions- like people not being able to afford medical care- we need to ask ourselves why this happens and what can be done about it. And the Buddha had the answer: this happens because everyone's mind is defiled with greed and the only way to solve this problem is to eliminate craving. Metta, James #61700 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/21/06 3:34:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > I just got news from home that it isn't cancer, thank goodness! ---------------------------------- Howard: Oh! How wonderful!! I must say, James, this business rings a bell with me!. I'm so happy that your mom found out the good news that she doesn't have colin cancer *before* the operation, rather than after (as in my case). The surgery, of course, is still a concern, but this must be a great load off all your minds! ---------------------------------- My > > mom will have the operation in two weeks. Yes, she does have > insurance through her work but it probably won't cover everything, > and if it was cancer they probably would cover even less. After > all, insurance companies serve their own interests. > > This may seem off-topic for a Buddhist group, but it really isn't. > When we look at the world around us and see completely unfair > conditions- like people not being able to afford medical care- we > need to ask ourselves why this happens and what can be done about > it. And the Buddha had the answer: this happens because everyone's > mind is defiled with greed and the only way to solve this problem is > to eliminate craving. ------------------------------------ Howard: I have wondered from time to time why, among all the many and varied charities there are, why there is apparently no charity that provides medical coverage for those who cannot obtain (an adequate amount of) it on their own or through employment. It seems like such a natural idea. It sure would one of the charities that I would be interested in contributing to! ---------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ======================== Thank goodness for this good news, James! May all go well now, for all of you With metta, Howard #61701 From: "Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:51 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. bhanteseelag... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: Dear Scott, When I was reading your letter, I felt that I should make you strong to help your mother with telepathic healing. If your heart is overwhelmed by attachment towards your mother, you may be disappointed and you may distract with the nature. If you consider this opportunity to help your mother with compassion, then you may become the channel for us to link with your mother for telepathic healing. I would like to invite your wise attention to be chief and become strong to find the help from kindness. It is true that if one is aware with compassion, he is helpful to him and he becomes strong to help others. This is a good opportunity for you to attend your mother with full of love and compassion. Then you experience it is easy to understand the situation to help her to gain good health. The cancer is cancer just like the cold. But we make it serious and become restless. Then we find that situation becomes worse. When the cancer patient is strong with his intention to get rid of his cancer, He develops his mind and becomes aware of self healing with confidence and determination. The desire of getting rid of the sick, links with the rapture and it is easier to work with the strong decision. There is no space for the doubt and restlessness to dominate the situation. Day by day he becomes strong with his growth of his good health. Actually he develops his Psycho Neuron Immune System to overcome his cancer. There are a lot of people who have overcome the cancer with self healing. I believe you may find our help for telepathic healing with much confidence. May you find the strength with the study of "Reasoning and consideration" for your achievement! With much love and compassion, Seelagawesi Thero > > Dear James, > > The below is distressing: > > J: "I'm sorry but I just got news from home that my mom needs to have a > major operation and she might have colon cancer, so I'm not quite in > the mood to continue this discussion. I think I will bow out." > > Please accept my heart-felt wishes and deepest concern. I hope things > can go well. > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > #61702 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidharma origins dacostacharles Hi Nina, How could one have pasted lives and not be reincarnated? Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina van Gorkom Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 20:40 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidharma origins Dear Charles D, No not reincarnation. The Buddha also spoke of his past lives, and during those lives, as a Bodhisatta, he developed all the perfections. Cittas succeed one another and thus different tendencies are accumulated. Nina. <...> #61703 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:31 pm Subject: sati non-forgetful of wholesome? (ps to james) philofillet Hi Nina Quick question. A footnote in SPD defines sati as that which is "non- forgetful of the wholesome." Isn't sati non-forgetful of any dhamma, whether wholesome or not? The non-forgetfulness is of course wholesome but can't the object be akusala dhamma? Thanks in advance. Phil p.s glad to hear situation for your mom not as serious as it seemed. #61704 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks scottduncan2 Dear James, I'm happy to hear this! A reprieve, eh? J: "I just got news from home that it isn't cancer, thank goodness!" With loving kindness, Scott. #61705 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Of course there are > cittas. But there is no "dhamma that performs experiencing". The experiencing > IS the dhamma, it IS the citta. If you cannot follow that distinction, then > there is nothing I can do in making you understand me. > Sometimes the locution "Feeling feels" is used in the English > rendering of the suttas. The meaning is that feeling is just the operation of feeling, > i.e., that there is no more to feeling than feeling. Instead, however, the > English translation "Feeling feels" is most unfortunately suggestive of feeling > not being an operation, but of some *thing* that performs that operation. > That, exactly, is agency terminology, and it is *wrong*! The real harm in the > terminology is to those people who are very vulnerable to atta- view, because they > will allow it to reinforce their tendency to reify. Hi Howard I've been reading your several threads and trying to get my head around your above-stated viewpoint. Perhaps you can help me clear up a few misgivings? You are concerned that some people reify dhammas and take them to be atta, even if only moment by moment. Let's call this perceived error "micro-atta-view". But it seems to me that your view is one that tends to "micro-annihilation-view". BB writes that the annihilationist perceives entities "springing up out of nothing" whereas the correct view sees, not an entity, "but a succession of dhammas linked together by bonds of conditioning". When you say "experiencing IS the dhamma", where do you suppose this experiencing springs up from? Does it have a material base (rupa)? Are you, in effect, espousing a materialist viewpoint that citta is merely a by-product of rupa? What is the error in saying "dhammas exhibit characteristics"? I had always thought your emphasis was on, in Nyanatiloka's words, "a mere process of ... mental and physical phenomena", but lately I am wondering if you have taken this further (for fear of micro-atta- view) and ended up with micro-annihilationist-view (at any given moment, all there is is a happening that springs from nowhere). Tell me I'm way off target (as I think I am but can't articulate it)! I hope I'm not boring you with these questions as I suspect you've dealt with them at length before but I would appreciate a reminder if you have the time and inclination. Best wishes Andrew #61706 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/21/06 9:04:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Of course there are > >cittas. But there is no "dhamma that performs experiencing". The > experiencing > >IS the dhamma, it IS the citta. If you cannot follow that > distinction, then > >there is nothing I can do in making you understand me. > > Sometimes the locution "Feeling feels" is used in the > English > >rendering of the suttas. The meaning is that feeling is just the > operation of feeling, > >i.e., that there is no more to feeling than feeling. Instead, > however, the > >English translation "Feeling feels" is most unfortunately > suggestive of feeling > >not being an operation, but of some *thing* that performs that > operation. > >That, exactly, is agency terminology, and it is *wrong*! The real > harm in the > >terminology is to those people who are very vulnerable to atta- > view, because they > >will allow it to reinforce their tendency to reify. > > Hi Howard > > I've been reading your several threads and trying to get my head > around your above-stated viewpoint. Perhaps you can help me clear up > a few misgivings? > > You are concerned that some people reify dhammas and take them to be > atta, even if only moment by moment. Let's call this perceived > error "micro-atta-view". But it seems to me that your view is one > that tends to "micro-annihilation-view". BB writes that the > annihilationist perceives entities "springing up out of nothing" > whereas the correct view sees, not an entity, "but a succession of > dhammas linked together by bonds of conditioning". ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe in anything "springing up out of nothing," but in dependence on conditions. -------------------------------- > > When you say "experiencing IS the dhamma", where do you suppose this > experiencing springs up from? > ------------------------------- Howard: I don't follow the question. When this is, that is. With the arising of, that arises. Nothing more need be said.are you looking for a substrate. A literal sub-stance (that which stand under)? ------------------------------ Does it have a material base (rupa)? > Are you, in effect, espousing a > materialist viewpoint that citta is > merely a by-product of rupa? ------------------------------- Howard: No. Vi~n~nana is not a substance or a thing or something arising as a function of something else. It is an activity - the activity of knowing. What you are looking for is an underlying something or other. That is substantialism. ----------------------------- What is the error in saying "dhammas > > exhibit characteristics"? ------------------------------ Howard: It is misleading, and it is vague and overly general. Some dhammas are actions (like feeling, knowing, and recognizing), others are qualities (like hardness and warmth), still others contents of experience (like sights, sounds, and odors). What we have been primarily discussing are the namas, and they are actions/activities, and NOT things that act. There are actions but no actors. There is feeling, but no feelers. There is recognizing, but no recognizers. There is seeing, but no seers. There is knowing but no knowers. ---------------------------------- > > I had always thought your emphasis was on, in Nyanatiloka's words, "a > mere process of ... mental and physical phenomena", but lately I am > wondering if you have taken this further (for fear of micro-atta- > view) and ended up with micro-annihilationist-view (at any given > moment, all there is is a happening that springs from nowhere). --------------------------------- Howard: Phenomena arise due to cause and conditions. Yours is a search for substance, Andrew. Turn to Vedanta for that. --------------------------------- > > Tell me I'm way off target (as I think I am but can't articulate > it)! I hope I'm not boring you with these questions as I suspect > you've dealt with them at length before but I would appreciate a > reminder if you have the time and inclination. ----------------------------------- Howard: There's nothing wrong with your questions, Andrew. But I am afraid that I am very much wearying of this thread. I am unable to satisfactorally point out the reification that I see accepted by others, and I choose to let go of the effort. All I can do is refer people to the Kaccayanagotta Sutta which teaches the middle way between nihilism and substantialism, and be done with the matter. -------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew > > ================ With metta, Howard #61707 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:32 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...but I would just like to butt in if I may." A privilege, Nina, thank you. N: "Yes, Kh Sujin always stresses, everything is dhamma...Nobody can make it occur." I'm glad to be figuring that out. I see it to be correct. Karunadasa: "The Buddha had taught that to see the world correctly is to see - not persons and substances - but bare phenomena (suddhadhamma) arising and perishing in accordance with their conditions." N: "Here you got a sentence of Karunadasa that is well expressed." I agree, the essay is quite a well-written one, if only from the vantage point of a good scholarly piece of work. And here he is stating in a succinct way the essence of what Kh. Sujin speaks about. N: "A long process of developing understanding of all these phenomana as they appear one at a time through the six doorways, and this without an idea of trying to be aware or controlling. Right from the beginning one should understand this so that one does not deviate from the Path." Okay. I think I'm starting to really get the part about not trying to be aware or controlling. If I suddenly find myself aware of sound, and various visible objects then that's it, really, or the start of it. These phenomena just arise. As do the various cittas and accompanying cetasikas. Can you please help me understand the "one at a time through the six doorways?" What is "one at a time?" All ruupas are conglomerated into kalapas. All cittas have at least seven accompanying cetasikas. Does "one at a time" mean one unit at a time? The citta cannot be separated from the associated dhammas arising with it. Does understanding encompass the complex? Does understanding have the capacity to understand separate dhammas, even though, as I understand it, they are, at a basic level, inseparable? I hope this is not too many questions at once. N: "It is also translated as making become." How is one to understand the use of the word "making?" Obviously this is a conventional usage since no one makes... N: "Yes. Also studying the teachings and explaining them, discussing them, is kusala included in bhaavanaa. Your activity at this moment is bhaavanaa." Yes. It's great, actually. I'm excited as I plan my early morning Dhamma study. I get up at 4:30 am so I can have some time before the kids get up and there is so much to study it is beautiful! N: "People ask: but what can one do? Listening and considering the Dhamma condition the growth of understanding so that there will be direct awareness and understanding. But also, developing all the perfections, all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind in daily life. These are the necessary supports of pa~n~naa. Daana, siila, mettaa, renunciation, all the perfections are needed, as a medicine..." I think that through these recent posts I am learning the scope of bhaavanaa and feeling quite freed up as a result. I think that there is a stereotype about "practise" which is based on notions of ritualism. Sitting meditation which conditions the arising of jhaana in those for whom conditions are right is a valuable part of it; daily life - just watching, reading Dhamma, thinking about it, and all of the perfections you mention - "practise" can be all the time given the right understanding. It is a very important thing to realise, In my insubstantial opinion. I really enjoy having the chance to discuss the Dhamma with such a deep and humble woman as yourself. Thank you, Nina. With loving kindness, Scott. #61708 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. scottduncan2 Dear Bhante, I've re-routed your kind words to the rightful recipient. Scott. > Dear James, > > When I was reading your letter, I felt that I should make you strong > to help your mother with telepathic healing. If your heart is > overwhelmed by attachment towards your mother, you may be disappointed > and you may distract with the nature. If you consider this > opportunity to help your mother with compassion, then you may become > the channel for us to link with your mother for telepathic healing. > [snip] #61709 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:10 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions. nichiconn Howard: It is clear here to me, Nina: You cannot conceive of an acting/activity without there being an actor. Inasmuch as that is the case, any further attempts on my part are likely to be fruitless, I think. Connie: Fruitless. Really? Congratulations. Sub-Cy to Brahmajaala, on I.8, which begins: 'Having Abandoned the Destruction of Life, the Recluse Gotama Abstains from the Destruction of Life...': <<...death is not causeless. Nor are the means of destroying life void of agency (katturahita). Though formations lack personal initiative, nevertheless the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, and are fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves, just as in the statements 'the lamp illuminates' and 'the moon brings in the night' (agency is ascribed to the lamp and to the moon)...>> peace. #61710 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:31 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions. scottduncan2 Dear Connie, May I ask a question? (And hope for an answer?) C: "...death is not causeless. Nor are the means of destroying life void of agency (katturahita). Though formations lack personal initiative, nevertheless the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, and are fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves, just as in the statements 'the lamp illuminates' and 'the moon brings in the night' (agency is ascribed to the lamp and to the moon)..." Agency is ascribed but is not, in fact, present. Is that correct? And yet, by contiguity condition, acts which arise based on the conceptual notion that there is an agent, still condition results. Is this correct? Thanks for your consideration. Scott. #61711 From: Illusion Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:32 pm Subject: How To Be United in Future Lives vvhite_illusion Excerpt: How To Be United in Future Lives Does your love in Samsara embrace Samsara tighter, or does it loosens its grip? - stonepeace Then the Blessed One (Buddha) spoke thus, "If householders, both wife and husband wish to be in one another's sight so long as this life lasts and in the future life as well, they should have the same faith, the same moral discipline, the same generosity, the same wisdom; then they will be in one another's sight so long as this life lasts and in the future life as well." When both are faithful and generous, Self-restrained, of righteous living, They come together as husband and wife Full of love for each other. Many blessings come their way, They dwell together in happiness, Their enemies are left dejected, When both are equal in virtue. TDEditor: Living virtuously by the Dharma together, a couple will create similar positive karma, thus deserving of the continual fulfilment of their happy spiritual friendship - with ever lessening worldly attachment to each other - till Enlightenment is eventually attained. Mutually supportive of each other's spiritual life, Prince Siddhartha himself partnered with Princess Yashodhara for some 500 past lives, before he became the Buddha. - In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi) -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) #61712 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:44 pm Subject: Re: How To Be United in Future Lives scottduncan2 Dear Maya, This reminds me of my beautiful wife, now deceased. "When both are faithful and generous, Self-restrained, of righteous living, They come together as husband and wife Full of love for each other. Many blessings come their way, They dwell together in happiness, Their enemies are left dejected, When both are equal in virtue." Thank you for the kind sentiments and the chance to recollect a beautiful woman. With loving kindness, Scott. #61713 From: Illusion Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:54 pm Subject: It is Just Like That vvhite_illusion Man loses horse. Friends console him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. Horse returns with a wild horse. Friends congratulate him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. Man's son breaks leg while training horse. Friends console him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. War breaks out and all able young men have to fight. Friends congratulate him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. After sunshine comes the rain; after rain comes sunshine. Neither good nor bad; things are just like that. source: http://buddhanet.net/flash/the-daily-enlightenment/index.html -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change, decay, and unsatisfaction." #61714 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:09 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Yes. It's great, actually. I'm excited as I plan my early morning > Dhamma study. I get up at 4:30 am so I can have some time before the > kids get up and there is so much to study it is beautiful! > I think that through these recent posts I am learning the scope of > bhaavanaa and feeling quite freed up as a result. I think that there > is a stereotype about "practise" which is based on notions of > ritualism. Sitting meditation which conditions the arising of jhaana > in those for whom conditions are right is a valuable part of it; daily > life - just watching, reading Dhamma, thinking about it, and all of > the perfections you mention - "practise" can be all the time given the > right understanding. It is a very important thing to realise, In my > insubstantial opinion. Nothing personal against Nina, but I really believe that she is steering you in the wrong direction when it comes to bhaavana (mental development). She makes it seem as if being a lay Buddhist is simply about reading and discussing the dhamma; as if it were nothing more than belonging to a book club. I know that you don't want to hear this, but there is much more involved in being a lay Buddhist. May I suggest you read this article about Lay Buddhist Practice so that you can see another perspective?: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khantipalo/wheel206.html Metta, James Ps. Thanks again for your well wishes. Yes, I am quite relieved that the problem with my mother doesn't involve cancer. #61715 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:22 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. buddhatrue Hi Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > > Dear Scott, > > When I was reading your letter, I felt that I should make you strong > to help your mother with telepathic healing. If your heart is > overwhelmed by attachment towards your mother, you may be disappointed > and you may distract with the nature. If you consider this > opportunity to help your mother with compassion, then you may become > the channel for us to link with your mother for telepathic healing. I wouldn't say that I have attachment towards my mother (step- mother); actually, I would say that I predominately have aversion toward her. She was extremely abusive toward me during my childhood and we don't have a very good relationship now. But now I am trying to forgive and forget and to understand that she acted out of conditions usually beyond her control. Things are never very simple and easy. However, I do agree with the concept of telepathic healing and thank you for your efforts to explain it to me. Though we have had a bad past, I don't want her to suffer too much. Sickness is a part of life and cannot be escaped, but it is good to try to ease the suffering of the sick- actually as well as telepathically. Metta, James #61716 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH corvus121 Dear Howard Sorry for being frustratingly slow and thanks for "having another go" at explaining for me. I'll have another look at the Kaccanagotta Sutta and think about it some more. As we live in a sphere where vinanna and rupa are "interdependent", there's no wonder it is a difficult subject. I suspect I do think of rupa as materiality and consciousness as some form of energy that relies upon the presence of materiality in some way. If I could see the difference between the 2, then I'd be able to distinguish nama from rupa. If I could see how they relate, then I'd understand conditionality. If I could see that consciousness is fleeting and that rupa-kalapa is but "several physical phenomena constituting a temporary unity" only, I probably wouldn't need to be on this list, bugging you! LOL! Thanks again, Howard Best wishes Andrew > Howard: > Phenomena arise due to cause and conditions. Yours is a search for > substance, Andrew. Turn to Vedanta for that. I am unable to satisfactorally point > out the reification that I see accepted by others, and I choose to let go of > the effort. All I can do is refer people to the Kaccayanagotta Sutta which > teaches the middle way between nihilism and substantialism, and be done with the > matter. #61717 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks matheesha333 Hi James, I was in a similar situation with my mother recently. There were worries of cancer, but it turned out to be a false alarm. I was immensly relieved but it struck home that it was only a matter of time. The Dhamma is true and of great help. with metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > I'm happy to hear this! A reprieve, eh? > > J: "I just got news from home that it isn't cancer, thank goodness!" > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > #61718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidhamma origins nilovg Hi Charles D, Op 21-jul-2006, om 21:29 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > How could one have past lives and not be reincarnated? ---------- N: No person has past lives, there is no person who could become reincarnated. I quote some of the Material written by Nyanatiloka that Howard posted. ------ end quotes. If you have questions about this, do ask. As I said, each citta that arises is succeeded by the next one, and thus past kamma and also accumulated good and bad inclinations are as it were carried on from one moment to the next moment. The word carried on is figurative, used to explain something. When the Buddha speaks about his past lives, it is figurative or conventional language. We need the Abhidhamma to have understanding of his words. ***** Nina. #61719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas and functions. nilovg Dear Connie, so glad to see you again, I thought of you and missed you. Your musings on texts containing treasures such as the Pitaka Disclosure are always inspiring. I hope your health is O.K. Your quote makes it very clear that we have to take into consideration that figurative language is used to explain ultimate realities. I would like to think aloud about this some more. The Buddha speaks about praise and blame, honour and dishonour, etc, that change all the time, to explain that vipaaka is dependent on conditions. Conventional language is used here to explain ultimate realities. This helps us to apply the Dhamma in daily life. I feel hurt by some sour remarks, but as Sarah always reminds us not the people are the cause of unpleasant experiences, but it is just kamma that produces result. The Buddha said: the deeds we did ourselves, and again here is figurative language, used to help us. When it is said: cittas perform functions, this is figurative language used to explain how cittas operate. When we at least understand intellectually the teaching of ultimate realities, we know that there is no agent in the ultimate sense. There is no danger this expression. But, even when we say a hundred times; there is no agent, as worldlings we still have the deeprooted clinging to self, mostly unnoticed. We need good friends here to remind us of the truth. The Abhidhamma helps us develop understanding at this moment of seeing or hearing, so that we know that it is seeing that sees, no person, hearing that hears, no person. People may find the Abhidhamma abstract when they read that there are eight types of lobha-muulacittas. But this is a reminder that whenever there is attachment, there are cittas, not self. Moreover, there is a great variety of cittas, there is not only one type, and this depends on conditions. ***** Nina. Op 22-jul-2006, om 5:10 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Sub-Cy to Brahmajaala, on I.8, which begins: ...Though formations > lack personal > initiative, nevertheless the conventional designation of agency is > applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, > and are > fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves, > just as in > the statements 'the lamp illuminates' and 'the moon brings light in > the night' > (agency is ascribed to the lamp and to the moon)...>> #61720 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sati non-forgetful of wholesome? (ps to james) nilovg Hi Phil, We are going away Monday 24 July and come back 26, I will be off line. There are different levels of sati, of daana, of siila, of bhaavana. When there is an opportunity for daana, sati is non-forgetful of this type of kusala, so that the opportunity is not wasted. Just now objects impinge on the six doors, and when sati arises, it is non-forgetful of the opportunity to be aware of nama and rupa, whatever they may be, pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala. Thus, when sati is non-forgetful of the development of satipatthaana, and is thus of the level of bhaavana, it can be aware of akusala dhamma. Nina. Op 22-jul-2006, om 1:31 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > A footnote in SPD defines sati as that which is "non- > forgetful of the wholesome." Isn't sati non-forgetful of any dhamma, > whether wholesome or not? The non-forgetfulness is of course wholesome > but can't the object be akusala dhamma? #61721 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhaavana nilovg Dear Scott, Op 22-jul-2006, om 4:32 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Can you please help me understand the "one at a time through the six > doorways?" > > What is "one at a time?" All ruupas are conglomerated into kalapas. > All cittas have at least seven accompanying cetasikas. > ------------- N: This is true, but awareness can be aware of only one reality at a time. Each citta can have only one object at a time, and thus also the citta with awareness can have only one object at a time. Speaking of kalapas or groups of rupa: colour arises in a group, there are at least seven other ruupas, but only colour impinges on the eyesense so that it can be seen. The accompanying rupas are not seen. As to citta and cetasikas, say, if the accompanying unhappy feeling is so predominant, then feeling can be the object of another citta arising in a following process, never of the same citta that it accompanies. ----------- > S: Does "one at a time" mean one unit at a time? The citta cannot be > separated from the associated dhammas arising with it. > ------------ N: One characteristic at a time, perhaps this is clearer now? Do ask otherwise, it is an important point. We speak about dhammas that present themselves or appear, and the meaning is: they show their own characteristic, but only one characteristic at a time can be known by sati and paññaa. > > --------- > S:Does understanding have the capacity to understand separate dhammas, > even though, as I understand it, they are, at a basic level, > inseparable? > -------------- N: Instead of separate I would use, with Howard, distinguish. > ------------- > S: N: "It is also translated as making become." > > How is one to understand the use of the word "making?" Obviously this > is a conventional usage since no one makes... > ---------- N: Yes, here we have it again: figurative language. ---------- > > S: I think that there > is a stereotype about "practise" which is based on notions of > ritualism. Sitting meditation which conditions the arising of jhaana > in those for whom conditions are right is a valuable part of it; ______ N: Kh Sujin in Survey of Paramattha Dhamma stresses very much the role of paññaa in the development of samatha. Paññaa has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and that is difficult. Akusala can be so subtle. --------- S: > daily life - just watching, reading Dhamma, thinking about it, and > all of > the perfections you mention - "practise" can be all the time given the > right understanding. It is a very important thing to realise, In my > insubstantial opinion. ------ N: With appreciation of your early morning Dhamma study, and your enthusiasm, Nina. #61722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi James, I knew this background and I appreciate your kindness and compassion towards her all the more. It is great you understand that she acted because of condiitons that are beyond control. This is really Abhidhamma in daily life. Nina. Op 22-jul-2006, om 7:22 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I wouldn't say that I have attachment towards my mother (step- > mother); actually, I would say that I predominately have aversion > toward her. She was extremely abusive toward me during my childhood > and we don't have a very good relationship now. But now I am trying > to forgive and forget and to understand that she acted out of > conditions usually beyond her control. Things are never very simple > and easy. #61723 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:08 am Subject: Re: object and feeling ken_aitch Hi Herman, Continuing from Friday's conversation (sorry if I am going to sound like a broken record): --------- KH: > > The entire purpose of Dhamma discussions is to learn more about the dhammas that are arising now. <. . .> H: > Well, when there is faith about what there is, then all that is ever seen is that faith, although it is confused as being some sort of reality. ---------- That's all very interesting, but it is not Dhamma. I suppose we could try to match your description of faith with one of the 52 cetasikas. Then we could discuss something real! But which cetasika is it? At one time it sounds like saddha (confidence in wholesome qualities) and at another it sounds like miccha-ditthi (wrong understanding of ultimate reality). (!) ------------------ H: > But, and because, if you are ever game enough to drop your faith and confront reality in the nakedness of viewlessness, you would find that dhammas arising in a present moment are not there for you to know. This is a major topic of utter confusion, the dhammas arising now. I don't know who came up with this idea, for others to have faith in, but if I find them, I shall smack their bottoms. Why do you set out to try and understand something that doesn't happen? And why don't you actually have a peek and see what happens before deciding how things are? ------------------------- What I see in daily life fits with what I have learnt from the Dhamma. There are no discrepancies. Whenever there seems to be a discrepancy I ask DSG for an explanation. Or I read explanations other people have been given. The answers have always been satisfactory. Admittedly, I haven't obtained absolute proof. According to the Dhamma, that won't come until panna directly knows anicca, dukkha and anatta. How about you? Have you found a teaching of ultimate reality that fits with your daily life experiences? ----------------------------------- H: > What are we to say about a photograph of a car, except that it is completely unknowable from the photo whether the car is moving or not. The very thing that defines a car, its ability to go from place to place, is lost in an instant snapshot of it. ----------------------------------- I see what you are driving at. :-) And I agree; in one sense the conditioned world described by the Buddha bears no resemblance to the conventional world. It has no cars and no people in it. It has just a few, worthless dhammas, none of them lasting as much as a trillionth of a second. But the world of cars and people is not the only model that fits with daily-life experiences. After hearing some basic Abhidhamma, I can believe that there are really just moments of seeing, hearing, thinking and so on. It all fits into place when you give it a chance. --------------------------- H: > What are we to say about a present moment, except that it completely denies the nature of consciousness. Like a car, consciousness has a motor. Consciousness is driven by craving. Craving moves from a past to a future, always. Craving for being, as becoming, cannot manifest itself in a present moment, it is always a movement. And movement in a present moment is meaningless. As is the theory that knows all about the present moment. --------------------------- I agree we can understand the present reality in terms of how it was conditioned by past realities, and how it will affect future realities. But surely, as a matter of simple logic, you can see there is really only the present moment. (?) Ken H PS: I hope you are enjoying camping out. (That is what you Sydney people call living in Melbourne, isn't it?) :-) #61724 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-requisites for development of insight (was, Re: Hello*) jonoabb Hi Mateesha (I've seen your recent post with the useful sutta passages, and will come in on that in due course. In the meantime I'd like to get off this reply to an earlier post of yours.) matheesha wrote: >>As I see it, the development of insight can begin at any time,... >> > >M; Certainly. Panna, as one of the 3 trainings, is vast in meaning. > > > >>and it brings with it the development of the samadhi >>(concentration) that supports that insight, so that >>by the time enlightenment is attained the accompanying >>samadhi is said to be of the intensity of jhana (a >>similar kind of thing happens with the development of >>samatha). >> > >M: :), yes that would happen in that snapshot view. But what is NOT >described is the process which lead up to that. The snapshot views >of abhidhamma can be powerful descriptions, but does not seem to be >the full story, for who can suddenly give rise to a jhanic level of >samadhi complete with fetter destroying panna? You are correct in pointing out that there cannot be any sudden arising of high level samadhi. The development of insight and its supporting factors is something that happens gradually over time. The question we are considering is, how it begins (that is to say, begins afresh in this lifetime) and continues. To my understanding, the precursor of well-developed insight is weak insight ;-)) This may sound trite, but my point is that the precursor of developed insight in not some form of 'practice' other than the arising of insight (such as samatha bhavana). So if one knows the prerequisites for the arising of insight, its development can begin, regardless of one's overall level of development. >I think from >experience you will know that it is incredibly difficult. I know >from experience that there are other ways of giving rise to panna >from direct experiencing, but you might not accept that as evidence >in this court. :) > Well yes, I do question the relevance of any individual's 'practice' (whether yours or mine) in coming to understand exactly what the teachings are saying about the development of insight, and for good reason, I think. It's so easy to be swayed by what 'sounds right' to us -- like ideas about a calm mind free of the hindrances -- that we are too easily persuaded that our experience is being confirmed by the texts. Better to really look at the teachings as they stand, free of any such bias, don't you think? At the very least, there is no harm in doing so ;-)) >M: I remember you quoting that sutta where the buddha says jhana is >only required for the anagami stage and partial development of >samadhi is adequate for the sotapanna stage. The foundations of >insight are laid at this stage. So the idea that jhana is essential >for panna, I dont believe. > I am interested to hear you say this, and I'm pleased to know that we agree on the point that jhaana is not a prerequisite for panna, the development of insight, according to the teachings. But there are prerequisites for the development of insight, and I think it useful to consider these. What do you understand the teachings to say on this? This is core to the 'practice'. >That it is incredibly helpful for it- I do. > The idea that jhana, although not a prerequisite, is helpful for the development of insight, and that it somehow makes it 'easier', is another of those ideas that sounds very appealing, and which everyone seems to take for granted, but which I think you will not find expressed in the recorded teachings. I agree there is a lot of mention of jhana in the suttas, and yes, the development of samatha was constantly spoken of and encouraged by the Buddha, and yes it is a high attainment, and yes those who attain enlightenment with jhana as basis have achieved something greater than those who attain enlightenment without. But all this must be seen in the context of the time, a time when many people with great prior attainments who are ready for enlightenment were born. What we are now discussing is the idea that a person of shall we say ordinary (average) attainments who is interested in the teachings should first develop jhana in order to support the development of insight. This is a different matter altogether, and such an idea is not to be found in the teachings, as far as I know. (But in any event, there is still the matter of the prerequisites for the development of insight; if these are not clearly understood then any level of samatha attainment cannot assist.) I think I've said enough for one post ;-)). Will pause here now. Jon #61725 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhijja domanassa (was, Re: Hello*) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - > > Jon, as I started into your post, and I read "So it is clear that the >sutta is contemplating a mind which all the usual defilements are still >arising. There is no suggestion here of having to be free of abhijja domanassa >before there can be any >development of mindfulness/insight.", I went back to see who was writing this >post! LOL! Because I would have expected you of all people to say that >pa~n~na and seclusion from abhijja domanassa would be in effect at the very outset >of the practice of satipatthana! > Well, you are right ;-)) Yes, as I see it there must be panna, and hence seclusion from abhijja domanassa, if there is to be any arising of insight at all. But the question I was discussing with Mateesha was whether there was a separate, preliminary 'practice' of overcoming abhijja domanassa that then leads to the arising of insight as a later step, and it was in this context that I said that there was no suggestion in the sutta of having to be free of abhijja domanassa before there can be any development of mindfulness/insight. > But as for calm needing to be in place in order for that practice to >proceed, I believe you are both correct in this matter. Even with much calm in >place, defilements can and do arise. With a degree of calm, they can be >observed, seen clearly, and let go of, but not so when mind is wildly out of control >and upset. > I appreciate that this is your personal experience, but my question is that if a certain degree of calm is a prerequisite for the arising of insight why don't we find this stated in the teachings as recorded? And also, isn't it clearly stated in the Satipatthana Sutta that the establishment of mindfulness involves knowing the distracted mind as the distracted mind, the mind with hindrances as the mind with hindrances? These mindstates can only be known if they arise, not if they are suppressed. >As I see it, there needs to be neither total absorption with the >mind unable to see see anything but a single focus, nor a mind that is like >the choppy surface of a pond roiled by powerful storm winds. > An interesting idea, but raises more questions than it answers ;-)) If there is an 'ideal' state of mind that is neither samatha/jhana nor distracted/active, but in a 'sweet spot' somewhere in between, why don't we find this spelt out in the recorded teachings? Jon #61726 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >J: "Yes, panna has the same function no matter whether it accompanies >samatha consciousness or vipassana consciousness, that is to say, the >same general function, that of dispelling ignorance, but there are >differences also, because the way of vipassana is different from the >way of samatha." > >S: So, according to the type of consciousness, pa~n~na differs. If it >arises with samatha consciousness, it knows the characteristics of >samatha; if it arises with vipassana consciousness, it knows - what - >anicca, anatta, and dukkha vis-a vis the particular dhamma which >serves as object? > Panna that arises with samatha consciousness knows whether the consciousness is kusala or aksuala; it can distinguish between kusala and subtle akusala. But it does not know anything about the characteristic of a presently arising dhamma, by which is meant a dhamma's characteristic as a nama or rupa, or its particular characteristic that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas, or the characteristics of anicca, dukkha or anatta that are common to all conditioned dhammas. Worth noting here is that the objects of samatha consciousness are not dhammas, generally speaking. For example: for metta and the other brahma viharas the object will be a person/being; for the recollections on foulness of the body, a body or corpse; for recollection on the Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, some aspect of the teachings; for the kasinas, a disc, and so on. >S: Is "vipassana" a synonym for pa~n~na? What is "vipassana consciousness?" > 'Vipassana' is usually translated as 'insight' It is consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level that sees a presently arising dhamma as it truly is. Vipassana consciousness and vipassana bhavana (development) are synonyms. These moments are also referred to as mundane path consciousness (as opposed to supramundane path consciousness, which is an actual moment of enlightenment). But not all panna is vipassana since, as discussed, panna that accompanies samatha consciousness/bhavana is of a different (and lesser) order. >J: "The person who develops jhana but has no interest in the >development of insight sees the danger in the clinging to (and other >akusala conditioned by) the objects experienced through the >sense-doors, but does not see the 'danger'/suffering/lack of >satisfactoriness in conditioned dhammas. Unless there is some inkling >at an intellectual level at least of the unsatisfactoriness in life in >samsara (this is also called a 'sense of urgency' (samvega)), there >will be no conditions for insight to arise or develop." > >S: So for the one who develops jhaana, pa~n~na only knows a limited >sphere of dhammas, those related to the objects of the five sense >doors. The totality of conditioned dhammas is not known by pa~n~na in >this case. Is this a function of jhaana-citta being the object? > > For the one who develops jhana but has not heard the teachings, panna knows if the consciousness is kusala or aksuala, but does not even begin to see dhammas as only dhammas, as they truly are. >J: "I think it fair to say that the panna in each of these 2 cases -- >seeing the danger in clinging to sense-objects (and as the escape from >that, abiding in jhana and on death rebirth in the Brahma worlds), and >seeing the unsatisfactoriness of life in samsara (and as the escape >from that, insight into the true nature of dhammas and on death no >rebirth in any plane whatsoever) -- is panna of a different order to >the other." > >S: Or can one say that the scope of what pa~n~na has known differs in the >two cases? I see the distinction between the two, and this seems to >me to mean that, while pa~n~na is only pa~n~na, with right view and >right understanding as characteristics, it is the number or scope of >dhammas known by pa~n~na that conditions either rebirth in the Brahma >worlds or escape or whatever else comes conditioned by the ratio of >ignorance to pa~n~na (or dhammas known thereby.) > Yes, the scope of the panna differs; the panna of samatha does not have a presently arisen dhamma as its object. Jon #61727 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hallo Jon > >This summer I hardly sit behind my computer, but i think it's not a >problem that there are laps between the messages. > Gaps between messages are no problem for me ;-)) >Joop: I feel something of the idea of 'the decline of buddhasasana' >in your remark; and I don't agree with that (Indian, not buddhistic) >idea. >Of course we are not at home in the brahmanistic indian culture in >which the Buddha lived and of which He used the language, similes etc. >But that is something else than that it is as such more difficult to >understand the Suttas than His audiences did. > The fact is that in the time of the Buddha many became enlightened just on hearing a sutta, and I would say they understood the teachings far better than we do today, whatever the reason for that difference mght be. Whether you accept the idea of the decline of the sasana or not, it would still require exceptionally good vipaka to be born at a time when it was possible to hear the teachings from the Buddha's own lips. >Jon: "So I stick with my point that the suttas cannot be read without >the assistance of explanation from elsewhere." > >Joop: I agree but the problem is, what is 'elsewhere'? Are >commentators, livinf 1500 till 200 years ago the ideal medium to >explain the Suttas to us? > If you read the commentaries I think you'll find that they are not particularly 'culture bound'. So, yes, I think they are a good source of explanation of the suttas. Of course, there are some references that we find obscure today but, on the whole, they are remarkably readable still. >I need many times explanations, especially from scholars of my own >culture who know the (spiritual) culture in which the Buddha lived. > Well I agree that an of explanation of the spiritual culture of the Buddha's time can be useful. But I think more important still is the kind of word-by-word explanation found in the commentaries, because it is that which clarifies the doctrinal meaning. Without that kind of explanation, knowledge of the spiritual culture would not be of much use. >Jon: "I'm not quite with you here, but if you'd like to bring up an >instance of a commentary that you say does more than commentate on >the original I'd be happy to discuss it." >Joop: Two ones I have already used in DSG so will not elaborate long, >no need to repeat that discussion: >- A short remark of the Buddha, only in the Vinaya, that buddhasasana >will decline in 500 years when woman can get bikkhuni is changed by >Buddhaghosa in 5000 years and made a whole system of it with periods >of 1000 years. > As I recall it, the explanation given is that the 500 years mentioned by the Buddha referred to the disappearance of arahants with abhinna attainments, whereas the 5000 years refers to the complete disappearance of the teachings. But in any event, is there an doctrinal significance in this 'discrepancy'? >- The making a cycle of D.O., something the Buddha did not say in any >Sutta. This causal chain is made in later centuries, by Boddhaghosa >but also in Tibetan buddhism a cycle (that was the topic in >discussions with Larry, Ken O and others in another thread.) >Cf 'The Wheel of Birth and Death' by Bhikkhu Khantipalo >The Wheel Publication No. 147/148/149 >"… The History of the Wheel >Dependent Arising is explained many times and in many different >connections in the Discourses of Lord Buddha, but He has not compared >it to a wheel. This simile is found in the Visuddhimagga ("The Path >of Purification") and in the other commentarial literature. …" > This is interesting. Could you please give the references to the passage(s) in the Visuddhimagga, so that I can check it and see what the differences are. Thanks. >Joop: I can imagine that. I have understood your question better >after your discussion with Herman about the same topic. >I don't see a Sutta totally isolated, when i read one, for example >about D.O. I like to read others ones too to understand better. >The problem I have is with the "as a whole", because that is an >abstraction, that seems to be something that trancends the individual >Sutta. > The kind of thing I have in mind is that not only is it necessary to consider other suttas about DO but also other suttas that don't directly mention DO, too. What was said about DO has to sit together with what was said in, say, the Satipatthana Sutta, or the suttas on the All, on the khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas. DO is not something to be understood in isolation, surely. Jon #61728 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas and functions. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Nina), I'm butting in, because I understand the frustration of feeling misunderstood, but I think this may be just because we have different understandings of the subtle nuances of the meaning of 'dhammas'. I hope to just add a little and then butt out again:-). --- upasaka@... wrote: > >N: Function is the translation of Pali kicca: gerund of karoti: what >>has to be done, task, duty. > > You yourself use the term activity, do you like that better? That is > > OK too. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Either is fine, and I have no problem with those terms. My point, > and > I don't understand why there is any difficulty understanding it [I am so > happy > that KenH *does* follow me!], is that namas like vi~n~nana, vedana, and > sa~n~na are not "things that engage in activities" or "things that > function or have > functions", but, instead, *are* activities of specific sorts. > ------------------------------------ S: I'd venture to say that we DO hear your understanding that dhammas are mere activities or experiential events, but that this is not quite the way some of us read the teachings. I understand that dhammas do indeed engage in activities and have particular functions. You quoted some very good material and extracts in Nyantiloka's article (#61653), but I believe the purpose of the article was to clearly show that there are mere namas and rupas arising and in the context of kamma and vipaka, there is nothing but these dhammas, no self involved at all, as in: //No producer........Empty phenomena roll on\\ etc In the first sentence you quoted which you understandably liked, he referred to there not being 'such things as mental states, i.e. stationary things.....', but 'mere passing processes.....'. I think this was a slightly misleading use of terminology, but as he stressed, the point was to stress anatta, conditionality and there not being anything other than nama and rupa. There are no static states as we are used to thinking of them, e.g an emotion or feeling involving a host of dhammas or concepts in coventional use. Dhammas are always difficult to translate and often 'things' is used. Simply, dhammas are not 'no things', or 'only processes/events'. In his translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, B.Bodhi, translates 'sabba dhamma muula pariyaaya' as 'The Exposition of the Root of All Things'. The commentary goes into detail on the various meanings of 'Dhamma' in different contexts and this has been discussed in detail before. (see U.P. - Dhamma, different meanings). In this context it's made clear that dhamma (things) is used as in the Abhidhamma (eg. 'wholesome dhammas' in the Dhs Matika) to refer to 'things with a specific nature (sabhava)'. 'Things with a specific nature' are dhatus, khandhas with characterisitics, functions, proximate causes and characteristics. They are involved in processes of experiences and arise and fall away. Nama dhammas can experience objects in the sense-door and mind-door processes while rupas can only ever be experienced. Rupa dhammas also continue to rise and fall all around us, regardless of whether they are ever experienced in any process or 'event' of experiencing. (Of course, we've had many discussions on all these areas before and agree in many, but not all respects) I'd go further and stress that if namas and rupas are not clearly known as dhammas in their own right with their own characteristics, an idea of self will never be eradicated. As the commentary above continues to stress: 'They bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas' (attano lakkha.na'm dhaarentii ti dhamma).It continues to stress that this is said to show that they are 'mere dhammas' (or 'bare dhammas'), 'devoid of such attributions as that of a 'being', etc.' In other words, unless they are known as dhammas, we will continue in our delusion to take people, computers or cars to act, rather than namas. As the text continues: "Whereas such entities as self, beauty, pleasurableness, and permanence, etc, or nature (pakati), substance (dabba), soul (jiiva), body, etc,which are mere misconstructions (parikappitaakaaramatta) due to craving and views, or such entities as 'sky-flowers', etc, which are mere expressions of conventional discourse (lokavohaaramatta), cannot be discovered as ultimately real actualities (saccika.t.thaparamatthato), these dhammas (i.e. those endowed with a specific nature) can. These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities." Whether they are called dhammas, things, actualities or realities doesn't matter in the least, but like Ken H, I find 'events' to describe namas or rupas to be rather misleading. They can be directly known distinctly when awareness and understanding develop. For example, anger may arise by conditions seemingly 'out of the blue', with a particular function and object. As everyone knows, it is quite distinct from kindness or any other dhamma. Yes, it's true as you'd say that it's the experiencing (of a concept) when it arises. However, it's not true to say there is no dhamma which arises and has this function of experiencing. If there is an experiencing, there has to be a nama dhamma which does the experiencing. If no dhamma arose to do it, there'd be no experiencing as I see it. .... > Howard: > If people stop using agency terminology, that will go a long way > to > stop them from thinking in terms of an agent that performs a function. > That is > my point. > ------------------------------- S: I think it's a good point but we differ in terms of what is meant by 'agency terminology'. Yes, there is no agent apart from the particular nature, the sabhava, of the dhamma in question. This is why it's said that the sabhava or the characteristic (lakkhana) of the dhamma is the same as the dhamma. There is no other self or atta which can be attributed to this dhamma. Really, I think it's quite a subtle point and it's good that you repeatedly raise it, but I think your 'take' is somewhat extreme, though I appreciate your reasoning and how the Abhidamattha Sangaha commentary notes which Karunadasa refers to (if I recall)can be read as he and you do. .... > >N: Citta cognizes an object, and this can be called a function. > > ----------------------------- > Howard: > A citta is the cognizing of an object. It is not a thing that > cognizes > an object. It is not an actor or doer. It is an acting, a doing. > ------------------------------ .... S: It is a nama dhamma which cognizes an object as we read throughout the texts. I don't think we can't say this is wrong. .... > Howard: > It is clear here to me, Nina: You cannot conceive of an > acting/activity without there being an actor. Inasmuch as that is the > case, any further > attempts on my part are likely to be fruitless, I think. ..... S: I appreciate your feeling of frustration. As I said, I don't think the problem is due to a lack of clarity on your part or misunderstanding on other people's, so much as a difference in understanding on this point. Whether cittas and cetasikas are called actors or anything else doesn't matter. Without their arising and performing their functions, there'd be no 'acting/activity'. As Nina said in another thread, we are all ignorant worldlings, so let's just continue to reflect, consider and develop awareness so that we can share our understandings to date. I certainly appreciate yours, Howard. I know it's a topic we'll all keep returning to:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Connie, very glad to see you joining in the thread too! ============= #61729 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:38 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 492- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Chapter30 Equanimity (tatramajjhattatå)contd There are different forms and degrees of equanimity. If we know more about them it will help us to understand the characteristic of equanimity. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 156-172) deals with different kinds of equanimity(1). One of the aspects of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga is equanimity as specific neutrality. As we have read in the definition of equanimity given by the Visuddhimagga, it has the characteristic of conveying (carrying on) evenly citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and its function is the preventing of deficiency and excess, or the inhibiting of partiality. Equanimity effects the balance of the citta and the cetasikas it arises together with, so that there is neither deficiency nor excess of any one among them. When the citta is kusala citta it is always accompanied by equanimity which effects the balance of the citta and the accompanying cetasikas. Kusala citta is also accompanied, for example, by energy or effort, viriya, which is balanced: there is neither deficiency nor excess of it, and thus it can assist the kusala citta in accomplishing its task. All cetasikas play their own part in assisting the kusala citta and equanimity has its own specific function in effecting mental balance. *** 1) The Visuddhimagga uses in this section the term “upekkhå” for equanimity, instead of tatramajjhattatå. Upekkhå can stand for indifferent feeling as well as for equanimity, depending on the context. See also the Atthasåliní, Book I, Part IV, Chapter III, 172, for the different types of equanimity. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61730 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and mindfulness (was, Hello*) jonoabb Hi Mateesha Continuing ... matheesha wrote: >M: I remember you quoting that sutta where the buddha says jhana is >only required for the anagami stage and partial development of >samadhi is adequate for the sotapanna stage. The foundations of >insight are laid at this stage. So the idea that jhana is essential >for panna, I dont believe. That it is incredibly helpful for it- I >do. > >I understand that this is in conflict with abhidhammic >understanding? The suttas dont talk of two types of samadhi, that >belonging to samatha and other to vipassana, it just talks of one. >The difference in these two is not the character of samadhi (even >though intensities differ) but how sati/mindfulness is wielded, to >experience only one object (samatha) or many (vipassana). > > No, no conflict with the Abhidhamma in this. As mentioned before, samadhi plays an important role, but samadhi is not the development of samatha (let alone jhana). It is not a matter of 2 types of samadhi. After all, ekaggata cetasika is one of the universal cetasikas. When it arises with kusala citta, it is kusala samadhi; with akusala citta, aksuala samadhi. Likewise, when accompanying samatha citta, it is of that kind of kusala, when vipassana citta, of that kind. >>Here is the passage in question: >> >>"And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in >>going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; >>in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... >>in bending and in stretching, ... >>in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ... >>in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, ... >>in defecating and in urinating, ... >>in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, >>is a person practicing clear comprehension. >> >>I think what you are saying is that 'practising clear comprehension' must involve banishing all conceptual thinking. Have I understood your remarks correctly? I do not see that actually stated anywhere in the sutta. Do you find support for that interpretation in other suttas (or the commentary)? >> >> >M: Jon, how many times have you been aware of everything you were >doing, as this monk in the sutta was? What is the difference - it is >papanca. Strings and strings of thought that we normally have. > Well I don't read the sutta as talking about mindfulness that is necessarily continuous. Continuous mindfulness would be a highly developed level of satipatthana. To me the point of the sutta is that there can be mindfulness at any time regardless of one's daily activity. Of course, if one's level of development is low, mindfulness will be less frequent. But there is no special prerequisite in terms of time and place. Again you mention the importance of the level of papanca (similar to the active mind thing). But as I think we are finding out, it's not so easy to find direct references to this in the suttas ;-)) >I feel quite handicapped, not to be able to refer to direct >experience, and many meditators here will know exactly what I mean, >when I say thoughts arent conducive to mindfulness. > Having to explain one's views about the practice by reference to the recorded teachings should not be seen as a handicap !! ;-)) >I guess I use >this to understand the suttas, like you use the abhidhamma. Lets try >quoting again :) > >"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as >to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? > >"[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & >of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & >distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his >mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is >steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening >becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the >culmination of its development. > >"[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes >to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. > >M: 'Mindfulness is steady without lapse' - what is that? There are >no disturbing thoughts. What does it mean to have mutta-sati? There >is confusion. OK, I agree it doesnt say it directly. But that is the >clearest inference. > >He is mindful putting aside 'greed and distress with reference to >the world' - these are papanca, thoughts about the world. > As you say, none of these passages directly mention the 'disturbing thoughts' theory of the development of insight. In any event, the sutta you quote here is about bringing mindfulness 'to the culmination of its development', presumably a reference to enlightenment, so I don't think it surprising that it is 'steady without lapse' at that stage. >He analyses what he has experienced directly through mindfulness. > >Now, you asked whether it is required to put away ALL conceptual >thinking. No, because that is possible only in a jhana :) and >because of the intense one-pointedness, not the best place to give >rise to panna. However rising from the jhana, that samadhi can be >harnessed, because the mind is relatively quiet immdediately >afterwards. > It is clear from the texts that for the jhaana practitioner there is the possibility of enlightenment with jhana as basis (that was the case for the Buddha and for many of the great disciples). But that is another scenario altogether. Still quite a way to go with your post ;-)) I'll break here ... Jon #61731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Joop (some weeks ago):"What have (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and >ritual and, (4) personality-belief in common ? > >Jon: "They are all aspects of wrong view (Pali: miccha ditthi). Wrong >view is rooted in lobha." > >Joop: You will be right that (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and ritual and, >(4) personality-belief are aspects of 'wrong view', but my question >is: >Am I in your opinion wrong when I perceive them also as the desire to >reduce anxiety? Or don't you like such psychological language? > > Could you give an example of what you have in mind by 'desire to reduce anxiety' in this context? Thanks. Let me give some examples of what I understand by the 3 kinds of wrong view mentioned: Erroneous views: the view that there is no result of deeds. Rules and ritual: performing meritorious deeds out of a sense of duty Personality-belief: belief in the ultimacy of beings >The main conclusion I made after reading Payutto is: >D.O. is explained by the Buddha in a general way, it can be used in >three ways (in none of the three is wrong): >- as explaining a causal process within a moment >- as explaining a causal process within a life >- as explaining a causal process within three lifetimes >Do you agree with that? > > I don't know a whole lot about DO and I find it a difficult area. I have seen reference to DO as being something that applies within a life or over 3 lifetimes, but I don't think I've seen DO described as as an explanation of a causal process within a moment. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Does the author give any references for this particular idea? What is the practical significance of it? Also, is there some particular significance in the author's use of 'causal'? I do not understand the conditioning factors in DO to be necessarily 'causal' in their effect. Jon #61732 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/22/06 2:19:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > Dear Howard > > Sorry for being frustratingly slow and thanks for "having another go" > at explaining for me. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Please do not put yourself down. The fact that I cannot make my point clearly enough is not your fault. You are far from the only one who is getting me. If only one person were not, the fault would likely rest with that person, but when several cannot, then a good share of the fault must be mine. Also, the matter of anatta is complex, deep, multi-faceted, and hard for all of us to grasp, especially since there is a lot to it. It is not just absence of a soul or personal self, nor just the fact of merely imputed reality of what is conceptually fabricated, nor just impersonality of dhammas, nor not just lack controllability (at will) of dhammas, nor just insubstantiality of dhammas, nor just the fleeting nature of dhammas, nor just dependent origination of and lack of own-being in dhammas. And each of these aspects of anatta, as it actually is, and not just as grasped theoretically by intellect, is, I am certain, radically stranger than we imagine. From my one brief no-self experience, I saw that actually experiencing, even briefly, the fact of personal non-identity, actually losing, temporarily, all sense of "I", is *shockingly diffferent* from how we might imagine it to be. And that is just one aspect of anatta. ---------------------------------------------- I'll have another look at the Kaccanagotta Sutta > > and think about it some more. As we live in a sphere where vinanna and > rupa are "interdependent", there's no wonder it is a difficult > subject. I suspect I do think of rupa as materiality and consciousness > as some form of energy that relies upon the presence of materiality in > some way. If I could see the difference between the 2, then I'd be > able to distinguish nama from rupa. If I could see how they relate, > then I'd understand conditionality. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the distinction made by Abhidhamma is rather clear: Rupas, the most basic objects of consciousness, may be known in many ways, including as mere object (the operation of vi~n~nana), by affective "taste" (the operation of vedana), and by categorization (the operation of sa~n~na), and other ways, but they are never, themselves, knowings, in any way. As for grasping conditionality, that is a long, hard process. And it is not only a matter of seeing how nama and rupa relate, though that is important. Nothing whatsoever arises except out of the confluence of conditions. Dependencies are complex, including forward, backword, and simultaneous-support dependencies. The more carefully and consistently and *finely* we examine dhammas as they arise, from a base of a calmed and clarified mind, and with an eye to seeing how and in what context they arise and cease, the more visible will be the patterns of conditionality and dependence, and the more and more clearly will the anatta of dhammas be revealed. -------------------------------------- If I could see that consciousness > > is fleeting and that rupa-kalapa is but "several physical phenomena > constituting a temporary unity" only, I probably wouldn't need to be on > this list, bugging you! LOL! Thanks again, Howard > > Best wishes > Andrew > ===================== Wth metta, Howard #61733 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > It is great you understand that she acted because of condiitons that > are beyond control. This is really Abhidhamma in daily life. > Nina. I hope that you aren't reading into that statement something I didn't intend. When I wrote that she had no control over those conditions, I didn't mean it in the K.Sujin philosophical approach of we have no control over ANYTHING – that reality is nothing other than dhammas and dhammas cannot be controlled by a self, so there is no control over anything. That is an extreme position that the Buddha didn't teach. Whatever happened to the Middle Way? There isn't "no control" and there isn't "absolute control", the reality is in the middle. For example, in the case of my step mother, she was verbally abused (and my father believes sexually abused- though she won't talk about it) as a child herself. So she was conditioned at an early age to have a low self-esteem and to abuse others. When she got older, to deal with the pain, she turned to alcohol. Most of the time when my mother was verbally abusive toward me, she was very drunk (unfortunately that was most of the time ;-). However, my mother never learned of the Buddha's teaching, the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, and the means of purifying one's mind of greed, hatred, and delusion. If she had, and she had practiced what the Buddha taught, then she would have had control over her actions. Now that she has stopped drinking, due to her health conditions, she might be sober long enough for me to teach her something of the Buddha's teachings- little by little. Metta, James #61734 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cittas and functions. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/22/06 8:36:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard (& Nina), > > I'm butting in, because I understand the frustration of feeling > misunderstood, but I think this may be just because we have different > understandings of the subtle nuances of the meaning of 'dhammas'. I hope > to just add a little and then butt out again:-). > ========================== Sarah, I have no substantive comments to make on your post, but merely wish to thank youvery much for the kindness of it. :-) With metta, Howard #61735 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:43 am Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi again, Andrew - In a message dated 7/22/06 9:22:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > Howard: > Please do not put yourself down. The fact that I cannot make my point > clearly enough is not your fault. You are far from the only one who is > getting > me. If only one person were not, the fault would likely rest with that > person, but when several cannot, then a good share of the fault must be > mine. > =================== The third sentence of the foregoing is missing a negative. It should have been: "You are far from the only one who is not getting me." (Sorry.) With metta, Howard #61736 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life I. nilovg Hi James, that is very good of you. I am sure you will have patience. I really feel very glad about your kindness. As to control, well, there were long debates on dsg and the term can easily be misunderstood. When you meet Sarah and Jon you may talk about it and then see that what you think is not so far apart from Khun Sujin. If you teach your mother like you taught the star kids before, it will be very, very good for beginners. Please share with us. You have great talents, I know. Nina. Op 22-jul-2006, om 15:22 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Now that she has stopped drinking, due to her health conditions, she > might be sober long enough for me to teach her something of the > Buddha's teachings- little by little. #61737 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard > Howard: > Ken, you need to read what I said more carefully. Of course > there are cittas. But there is no "dhamma that performs experiencing". The experiencing IS the dhamma, it IS the citta. If you cannot follow that distinction, then there is nothing I can do in making you understand me. > Sometimes the locution "Feeling feels" is used in the > English rendering of the suttas. The meaning is that feeling is just the operation of feeling, i.e., that there is no more to feeling than feeling. Instead, however, the English translation "Feeling feels" is most unfortunately suggestive of feeling not being an operation, but of some *thing* that performs that operation. That, exactly, is agency terminology, and it is *wrong*! The real harm in the terminology is to those people who are very vulnerable to atta-view, because they will allow it to reinforce their tendency to reify. > --------------------------------------- k: I can understand what you are saying because this is base on your thinking the other time about an empty core, to me is similiar to a wind. If it is the experiencing of the dhamma that define the dhamma, then how do this experiencing differentiate the different khandhas for eg how does it differentiate between feelings and perceptions. Anatta is not about non substantalism, anatta is about non-self. Each khandas exist, does this exist means substantialism? And each can be differentiate, does this means it is substantialism? As regards to khandas again, it is differentiate by Buddha and it is said in Buddhia it exist. When there hand feels an object, there is hardness. So is hardness substantial? Could we imply that there is experiencing of this hardness but how does this experiecing knows the difference if there is no characteristics to the object? substanlism to my interpretation is real, existence. There is nothing wrong about existence but there is something wrong when existence is about eternalism and nihilism. Cheers Ken O #61738 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your ongoing help. I hope you don't mind if I situate myself by looking at a few terms first... N: "This is true, but awareness can be aware of only one reality at a time. Each citta can have only one object at a time, and thus also the citta with awareness can have only one object at a time." The english "reality," I find, relates to the paali "vindati." In the form "vijjamaana" it means "existing;" the form "vijjati" means "to be found, to be known, to exist." This shows a nice consistency in that the meaning of the paali word for reality seems to subsume the idea of it being known. So "one reality at a time" is synonymous with "one object at a time" in your statement above. "Object" is aarammana, meaning "foundation;" also "support, help, footing," "condition, ground, cause, means." A third sense seems to be "a basis for the working of the mind and the intellect," and having reference to the "sense object," "[the]object of thought or consciousness," and "the outward constituent in relation of subject and object." This latter, the "subject-object" distinction, is clarified with reference to one of the meanings of the word "ayatana;" that being "sphere of perception," and including the "relation, functions, [and] reciprocalities" of "object of thought, sense organ, [and] object." The PTS PED also distinguishes "a five fold object," which is only somewhat clear to me, that being: Citta, cetasika, pasaada, sukhuma, ruupa, pa~n~natti, and nibbaana. I take it that these five can be objects of awaress? This is a confusing statement. "Pasaada" appears to mean "clearness, brightness, purity of colours" and thus is in relation to visible object? "Sukhuma" is "subtle, minute, exquisite" and refers, perhaps, to qualities of objects, or depth of awareness? At any rate, the above seems to indicate that the "one object at a time" is a function of an interaction of dhammas, of conditional relations, and of the way things happen to be; and that to the actuality is complex and not to be confused with the way in which it is described. N: "Speaking of kalapas or groups of rupa: colour arises in a group, there are at least seven other ruupas, but only colour impinges on the eyesense so that it can be seen. The accompanying rupas are not seen. As to citta and cetasikas, say, if the accompanying unhappy feeling is so predominant, then feeling can be the object of another citta arising in a following process, never of the same citta that it accompanies." Okay. Is "motion" a ruupa? I think its an element. What is it I see when I think I see "motion?" Is this the illusion caused by avijjaa arising? Are you referring to predominance condition above? N: "One characteristic at a time, perhaps this is clearer now? Do ask otherwise, it is an important point. We speak about dhammas that present themselves or appear, and the meaning is: they show their own characteristic, but only one characteristic at a time can be known by sati and pa��aa. Thanks. Can sati and pa~n~na know sati and pa~n~naa? I'd imagine it would have to be a knowing of a past object which had arisen with sati and pa~n~na and then fallen away; a sort of "that was sati and pa~n~na just a moment ago" kind of thing. N: "Instead of separate I would use, with Howard, distinguish." Okay. N: "Kh Sujin in Survey of Paramattha Dhamma stresses very much the role of pa��aa in the development of samatha. Pa��aa has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and that is difficult. Akusala can be so subtle. Thanks again. With loving kindness, Scott. #61739 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ashkenn2k Hi Matheesha >> > M: Looking at the monitor and typing is not seeing moment to > moment. A vague general impression of impermanance,which anyone can have, is not vipassana. When you can hear the arising of a sound, changing and finally passing away, when you can see the arising of a image, see it change and see it pass away, you are experiencing vipassana. The difference between this and normal experiencing is that in vipassana impermanance is 'in your face' because everything is constantly arising and passing away in the present moment. This type of repetitive exposure to panna is required over hours if not days to erode our thickened avijja. Normal experiencing only prolongs our sense of continuity and permanance. When reality is seen as fragmented, arising and passing away, panna sets in. As I said in what I wrote, seeing anicca and causality are essential to realising anatta. Again lack of a self is nothing new. We wouldnt look at a cardboard box and say there is a being there, like we do with animals/humans. The concept is not new. The concept in a human context is. To see that is what vipassana provides the opportunity for. If a something hits a cardboard box and it moves, we dont think it has a self ('the box moved on its volition'), because we can clearly see the causality in action. The problem with humans is that we cannot easily see the causality in action. This is what vipassana provides. We cannot easily see the noncontinuity of everything, this is what vipassana provides. All that is required is to SEE. Then you will understand. k: Vipassana as I said is simply insight. At the moment of arising of panna, there is vipassana. Which sutta said that the moment of arising of panna is not vipassana, do you like to quote me one? If all is required is to SEE, then animals could be Arahants. It is not the momemt to moment that matters, it is the understanding that dhammas is anatta, anicca and dukkha that matters. And this can arise anytime. > > M: I think that abhidhamma teaches that there is samadhi when panna > arises .. even as a common factor in every thought moment? In > either case, the buddha says, as I have quoted, a concentrated mind, gives rise to panna. How can these two coexist? Only one thing can be EXPERIENCED at a time. Things can coexist, without being > experienced. k: Hmmm but you forgotten to quote Buddha said about what lead to concentration. Buddha also said right view (panna) give rise to right concentration see MN 117 In MN 7, the Smile of the Cloth << 9. "He considers thus: I possessed of perfect confidence in the Dhamma,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is glad...the mind becomes concentrated. 10. "He considers thus: I possessed of perfect confidence in the Sangha,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration in the Sangha, gains gladness connected with the Shangha. When he is glad...the mind becomes concentrated. 11. He considers thus: '[The imperfections of the mind] have in part have been given up, expelled, released, abandoned and relinquished by me,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration of the Dhamma, gain gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is glad, rapture is born in him; in one who is rapturous, the body becomes tranquil; one whose body is tranquil feels pleasure; one who feels pleasure; in one who feels pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.>> In the Digha Nikaya 33 (p497 of Walshe) 1: """Here the Teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this joy arises and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result and with this happiness his mind is established 2. Or . ..in the course of teaching Dhamma to others ….his mind is established…. 3.Or.. as he is chanting the Dhamma….his mind is established. 4. Or.. when he applies the mind to Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it….his mind is established. 5.Or.. when he has properly grasped some concentration sign (samadhi- nimittam) has well considered it , and has well penetrated it by wisdom..his mind is established.."" end sutta. K: furthermore, who said there is need to have concentrated mind in order to have panna. You should look at MN 148 Six sets of six, too lazy to type it out :-). Cheers Ken O #61740 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thank you for the reply. J: "Panna that arises with samatha consciousness knows whether the consciousness is kusala or aksuala; it can distinguish between kusala and subtle akusala. But it does not know anything about the characteristic of a presently arising dhamma, by which is meant a dhamma's characteristic as a nama or rupa, or its particular characteristic that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas, or the characteristics of anicca, dukkha or anatta that are common to all conditioned dhammas." So, knowing about whether the consciousness is wholesome or unwholesome is not knowing a "characteristic of a presently arising dhamma." Samatha consciousness knows the difference between kusula and akusula. What is the object of samatha consciousness? This includes the below: J: "Worth noting here is that the objects of samatha consciousness are not dhammas, generally speaking. For example: for metta and the other brahma viharas the object will be a person/being; for the recollections on foulness of the body, a body or corpse; for recollection on the Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, some aspect of the teachings; for the kasinas, a disc, and so on." So the objects of samatha consciousness are pa~n~natti? I think I need to learn more about "mind-objects." J: "'Vipassana' is usually translated as 'insight' It is consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level that sees a presently arising dhamma as it truly is. Vipassana consciousness and vipassana bhavana (development) are synonyms. These moments are also referred to as mundane path consciousness (as opposed to supramundane path consciousness, which is an actual moment of enlightenment). But not all panna is vipassana since, as discussed, panna that accompanies samatha consciousness/bhavana is of a different (and lesser)order." Okay. Thanks, Jon, sorry if I'm slow on the uptake. With loving kindness, Scott. #61741 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/22/06 11:49:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard > > >Howard: > > Ken, you need to read what I said more carefully. Of course > >there are cittas. But there is no "dhamma that performs > experiencing". The experiencing IS the dhamma, it IS the citta. If > you cannot follow that distinction, then there is nothing I can do > in making you understand me. > > Sometimes the locution "Feeling feels" is used in the > >English rendering of the suttas. The meaning is that feeling is > just the operation of feeling, i.e., that there is no more to > feeling than feeling. Instead, however, the English translation > "Feeling feels" is most unfortunately suggestive of feeling not > being an operation, but of some *thing* that performs that operation. > That, exactly, is agency terminology, and it is *wrong*! The real > harm in the terminology is to those people who are very vulnerable > to atta-view, because they will allow it to reinforce their tendency > to reify. > >--------------------------------------- > k: I can understand what you are saying because this is base on your > thinking the other time about an empty core, to me is similiar to a > wind. If it is the experiencing of the dhamma that define the > dhamma, then how do this experiencing differentiate the different > khandhas for eg how does it differentiate between feelings and > perceptions. -------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand you, Ken. Vedana is one sort of operation and sa~n~na another sort - so why would they not be distinguished when observed? Different activities are not properly observed as the same. Likewise, hardness and sound are different types of objects of consciousness, and are experienced as different. I do not maintain that all experienced phenomena are the same. I really don't follow you. --------------------------------------- > > Anatta is not about non substantalism, anatta is about non-self. --------------------------------------- Howard: Substance is "that which stands under" - it is the alleged underlying core or essence of something. Anatta is very much about the lack of substance. What do you think a "soul" or "self" in the empirical person is intended to be? It is an alleged underlying, inherent core. ---------------------------------------- > > Each khandas exist, does this exist means substantialism? > --------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what sort of existence you intend. Dhammas do exist, but they do so as phenomena lacking corresponding noumena. They are mere conditioned elements of experirnce. They exist as contingent, dependent phenomena, and only so. They lack self-existence. They all lack a core of own-being and identity. They all lack self. They all lack substance. BTW, the philosophical notion of substance, the term literally meaning "standing under", is, as given in the Wikipedia article, "that element of an object without which it would not exist, or what exists only by itself (causa sui)." --------------------------------------- And each> > can be differentiate, does this means it is substantialism? --------------------------------------- Howard: No. I've said a dozen times that dhammas can be distinguished from each other. Why do you beat a dead horse? Dhammas lack substance in that they lack a core of own-being. They are utterly dependent for their very existence on other, equally insubstantial, phenomena. But they ARE distinguishable. Hardness is not the same as warmth. ------------------------------------ As> > regards to khandas again, it is differentiate by Buddha and it is > said in Buddhia it exist. When there hand feels an object, there is > hardness. So is hardness substantial? > ---------------------------------- Howard: No. It lacks self. --------------------------------- Could we imply that there is> > experiencing of this hardness but how does this experiecing knows the > difference if there is no characteristics to the object? > -------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about. Hardness is exactly as it is. Do you suppose I think it is otherwise? It is a specific condition without own-being, without essence, without self. It is utterly and entirely dependent! ------------------------------- substanlism> > to my interpretation is real, existence. There is nothing wrong > about existence but there is something wrong when existence is about > eternalism and nihilism. ------------------------------- Howard: Not all "existence" is the same. Substantial self-existence is entirely illusory. The actual existence of dhammas is the middle-way mode of existence that the Buddha so beautifully explained in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. -------------------------------- > > > Cheers > Ken O > > ========================= Ken (and all), I wish to drop out of this thread. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing further of value to be added. At least I have said all I have to say on it. With metta, Howard #61742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:56 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 32 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 Different Degrees of Lobha Lobha, attachment, leads to sorrow. If we really understand this, we will wish to eradicate lobha. The eradication of lobha, however, cannot be done immediately. We may be able to suppress lobha for a while, but it will appear again when there are the right conditions for its arising. Even though we know that lobha brings sorrow, it is bound to arise time and again. However, there is a way to eradicate it: it can be eradicated by the wisdom which sees things as they are. When we study cittas more in detail it will help us to know ourselves. We should know not only the gross lobha but also the degrees of lobha which are more subtle. The following sutta gives an example of lobha which is more subtle. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga IX, Forest Suttas §14): A certain monk was once staying among the Kosalese in a certain forest-tract. Now while there was that monk, after he had returned from his alms-round and had broken his fast, plunged into the lotus- pool and sniffed up the perfume of a red lotus. Then the deva who haunted that forest tract, moved with compassion for that monk, desiring his welfare, and wishing to agitate him, drew near and addressed him in the verse: ``That blossom, water-born, thing not given, You stand sniffing up the scent of it. This is one class of things that may be stolen. And you a smell-thief must I call, dear sir.'' (The monk:) ``Nay, nought I bear away, I nothing break. Standing apart I smell the water's child. Now for what reason am I smell-thief called? One who does dig up water-lilies, one Who feeds on lotuses, in motley tasks Engaged: why have you no such name for him?'' (The Deva:) ``A man of ruthless, wicked character, Foul-flecked as is a handmaid's dirty cloth: With such the words I say have no concern. But this it is meet that I should say (to you): To him whose character is void of vice, Who ever makes quest for what is pure: What to the wicked but a hair-tip seems, To him does great as a rain-cloud appear...'' ****** Nina. #61743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:01 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 13. nilovg Dear friends, After I had typed the text about dissecting the cow, my husband and I were having dinner. While we were eating I was still busy 'dissecting the cow'. I liked the food and I remembered the words of the sutta that we are bound by delight and attachment. We are all bound by these ' tendons', but wisdom can cut them away. This sutta was a condition for me to consider different namas and rupas which appeared. We are bound by attachment and delight with regard to what is experienced through the six doors: We like savours--tasting-- we want to go on tasting, We like visible object--seeing-- we want to go on seeing, We like sound--hearing-- we want to go on hearing, We like thought -- thinking-- we want to go on thinking. Thus there are conditions to go on in the cycle of birth and death. It is because of craving that we must be reborn. There will be the arising of nama and rupa in other existences, again and again. Why did the nuns have to hear the same sermon again? Hearing it only once was not enough. I would need to hear it again and again, many more times. I still cling to the internal sense-fields and to the external sense-fields. That is why it is necessary to be aware of seeing, colour, hearing, sound, of all namas and rupas which appear through the six doors, over and over again, without preference for any reality. Their characteristics have to be realized over and over again, so that pañña will know them as they are. Thus we are busy, dissecting the cow. ***** Nina. #61744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:17 pm Subject: bhaavanaa. nilovg Dear Scott, Scott: Thanks for your ongoing help. I hope you don't mind if I situate myself by looking at a few terms first... N: Sorry about the spanish n, I did not know it is not right on computer. I see it now. -------- S: quotes: N: "This is true, but awareness can be aware of only one reality at a time. Each citta can have only one object at a time, and thus also the citta with awareness can have only one object at a time." The english "reality," I find, relates to the paali "vindati."... the meaning of the paali word for reality seems to subsume the idea of it being known. So "one reality at a time" is synonymous with "one object at a time" in your statement above. N: I use reality for: dhamma or paramattha dhamma. Different from concept or idea, pa~n~natti. It arises and falls away, independently of the fact whether it is known or not. Object is wider: anything, real or not that can be known, including concept. ------- S: "Object" is aarammana, meaning "foundation;" also "support, help, footing," "condition, ground, cause, means." A third sense seems to be "a basis for the working of the mind and the intellect," and having reference to the "sense object," "[the]object of thought or consciousness," and "the outward constituent in relation of subject and object." ------ N: PED can be confusing, and they do not always grasp the meaning in the context of the teachings. S: This latter, the "subject-object" distinction, is clarified with reference to one of the meanings of the word "ayatana;" that being "sphere of perception," and including the "relation, functions, [and] reciprocalities" of "object of thought, sense organ, [and] object." ---------- N: Subject-object is so loaded, I shy away from it. Aayatana cannot be described by one definition. Perhaps you can check the archives, many discussions with Kh Sujin. It has several meanings, an important one: meeting or association of dhammas. --------- S: The PTS PED also distinguishes "a five fold object," which is only somewhat clear to me, that being: Citta, cetasika, pasaada, sukhuma, ruupa, pa~n~natti, and nibbaana. I take it that these five can be objects of awaress? This is a confusing statement. ------- N: Perhaps the five sense objects are meant? Subtle ruupa is hard to penetrate. Pa~n~natti is not object of awareness. -------- S:"Pasaada" appears to mean "clearness, brightness, purity of colours" and thus is inrelation to visible object? ------- N: In relation to saddhaa, confidence. This has purity like the purifying gem in dirty water. But pasaada ruupas are the five sensebases. ----------- S: "Sukhuma" is "subtle, minute, exquisite" and refers, perhaps, to qualities of objects, or depth of awareness? ------- N: Sukhuma is said of the Dhamma: subtle and deep. sukhuma ruupas are subtle ruupas, not the gross ones which are: the sense objects and sense bases. The latter are gross and near, they strike each other all the time. ---------- S:At any rate, the above seems to indicate that the "one object at a time" is a function of an interaction of dhammas, of conditional relations, and of the way things happen to be; ------ N: The object conditions citta that experiences it by object-conditon. It is beyond control what object is known at a pareticukar moment. We see, and we do not ask for it. We hear, we cannot help hearing. ------------- S: and that to the actuality is complex and not to be confused with the way in which it is described. ------- N: Described by the dictionnary or by the Abhidhamma? I would not stick too much to the dictionnary. ----------- S: Is "motion" a ruupa? I think its an element. What is it I see when I think I see "motion?" --------- N: Motion is one of the four great Elements, being the element of wind. It appears as pressure or oscillation through the bodysense. The others are: the element of earth or solidity appearing as hardness or softness, the element of water or cohesion that can only be known through the mind-door. The element of fire, appearing as heat or cold. Solidity, temperature and motion are tactile objects, to be experienced through the bodysense all day long. --------- S: Is this the illusion (seeing motion) caused by avijjaa arising? Are you referring to predominance condition above? ----- N: Yes. It is impossible to see motion. Colour is the only rupa that can be seen. I did not refer to predominance condition (see Nyanatiloka dict. onder adhipati paccaya). This refers to specific dhammas. ----------- S: Can sati and pa~n~na know sati and pa~n~naa? I'd imagine it would have to be a knowing of a past object which had arisen with sati and pa~n~na and then fallen away; a sort of "that was sati and pa~n~na just a moment ago" kind of thing. -------- N: Yes, they have just fallen away, and either sati or pa~n~naa would be the object of right understanding with awareness. This is not thinking. If they are not known as they are we take them for self. This is likely to happen. ****** Nina. #61745 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 13. philofillet Hi Nina and all > I liked the food and I remembered the words of the sutta > that we are bound by delight and attachment. We are all bound by > these ' tendons', but wisdom can cut them away. very, very gradually. I find personally there is a tendency with these kind of suttas that get at how tightly we are bound to think "oh boy better do something about that right here and now!" and of course there can be a wholesome moment of abstention from this or that. But the point of these suttas (another I like is the line in dhammapada that "well-oiled are the joys of a person") is to help us to understand the way things are. They are not prompts to rush out and apply a solution tout de suite. They are descriptions of the depth of our clinging. In "Burning" for example, it is only the ariyan who develops the revulsion etc that leads out. There are not conditions for applying a solution tout de suite and if we think there are we are probably fooling ourselves. very, very gradually, moment of understanding by moment of understanding. Phil p.s thanks for the feedback re sati, nina. I heard a great talk from India 2005, Benares, that touches on the subject the way that Ben Poomy Pokitty talk does. I will transcribe when I have time. #61746 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:17 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions. nichiconn dear Scott, S: Agency is ascribed but is not, in fact, present. Is that correct? And yet, by contiguity condition, acts which arise based on the conceptual notion that there is an agent, still condition results. Is this correct? C: thanks for finding my cup the other day. I also wanted to tell you not to let the pedophiles get you down, that there are more real things to know in the dark. I like Nina's "figurative language is used to explain ultimate realities" and don't want to get all hung up on what is presently factual or factually present, but repeat this part of the commentary to answer your first question: "the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, and are fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves". But another little factoid from this analysis of "trifling and insignificant matters" (virtue): <> For your 2nd question, no. In the immediately following frame of our movie, yes, contiguity may be a major star in the mental continuum, but there has to be a full supporting cast. "For instance," reads the Guide to Conditional Relations, "the root, non-delusion, a conditioning state of root condition, possesses as many as twelve conditioning forces, namely: root, predominance, conascence, mutuality, dependence, resultant, faculty, path, association, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance." Also, please note that contiguity and continuity are not synonymous. peace, connie #61748 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:42 am Subject: Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. philofillet Hi all I thought afterwards that I would revise > very, very gradually, moment of understanding by moment of > understanding. This is sheer speculation, but I think/guess/hope that single moments of understanding condition multiple moments of understanding, and ever-so-slightly deeper moments of understanding. I think this must be the case because, considering the prevalence of akusala, how could there be progress? Truly, the moments of understanding are of great import. I heard this today. I will put in some of my comments, but moderators please remove them if you think you'd like to put this in UPs (because of the Acharn Sujin content, and Jon's important statement.) Nina mentionned that Lodewijk feels somewhat upset because he enjoys his life of comfort and feels that it is insincere in the light of the paramis of sincerity/truthfulness. This is the talk that followed (from Dehli 2005): Acharn Sujin: That's why the Buddha said what is kusala and what is akusala - but could he force anyone to have kusala? But he could show the way - what is better than what - and it depends on one's understanding, and that very moment of sankhara khanda. Because no one can condition kusala moment. For example, right now we'd like to have satipatthana, but who can have it when there are no conditions for it. But when there are conditions for it who can stop it. That's why all the teachings are about understanding anattaness of any reality which appears right now. (Ph: I really believe we cannot understand the suttas if we don't understand the full implications of the anatta sutta which teaches us that it is simply not possible to have kusala factors because one wants them) (A.S cont'd) Just developing understanding. It's not easy. But since it's here, so it can be object of understanding. (snip) There is no other way than beginning to understand - just understand - taht there is a reality which now sees. That's all. And we learn to understand better and closer, until right understanding can penetrate the nature of that reality. Nina: But Lodewijk felt really disturbed or upset by thinking of the perfection of truthfulness, to be sincere - he felt upset. Acharn Sujin: *I think we study Dhamma so we understand Dhamma not as I. That is the safe way.No matter it's kusala or akusala there must be a very firm foundation of understanding of anattaness.* (Ph: Again, aproaching the study of the Buddha's teaching without a well-founded appreciation of the truth of anatta at an intellectual level is like approaching the study of ...hmm...biology without an appreciation of what a cell is. (or something like that.)) (a.s cont'd) (snip) Otherwise right now there is akusala - and one tries so hard without understanding not to have it arise anymore. But it's useless, becauses there's no understanding of it as a conditioned reality. And it falls away, so why regret, or be disturbed by its arising, because it's only nama. (Ph: Not so easy to say when akusala kamma patha is involved. I have a feeling Acharn Sujin doesn't deal with the temptations I do - if she does, Bangkok is the wrong city to be living in!!!!) (A.S cont'd)Any moment, panna has to be stronger and stronger, deeper and deeper to really become detached from clinging to the idea of would- like-it-to-be-other. Jon: So the paramis of truthfulness must include being honest with one's kilesa. Nina: (asks Jon to repeat something he had said to Lodewijk) Jon: I said that being on the path was a momentary thing and there are moments of understanding when one can say that the path is being developed, but the rest of the time there is no path being developed. But that is not a cause for concern because even if the moments of deveopment of the path are few and far between that is already a great boon and benefit and if one is hearing the right Dhamma and lsitening to it out of interest then there will be considering and reflecting and some moments of kusala perhaps with panna arising. Nina: And truthfulness is only a moment, it's not something that I possess. Ph: I can see why people who don't like the notion of the path being momentary are thrown off by the word "path." WHy did the Buddha choose such an image, which can hardly be momentary. Why didn't he say the Eighfold Blossom, or something like that, which would lend itself better to being understood as momentary. No concern on that point for me now. The path is momentary. Truth is momentary. Understanding is momentary. That much is clear - though understanding has not even begun to develop to the point at which momentary can be understood as something that is a billionth of a second or anything like that. THere are different degrees of momentary that can be appreciated by different degrees of understanding, I think. Phil p.s Sarah, thanks for the post the other day about sakkaya ditthi. As it happens that is one of the points I have wanted to post about, from one of those older tapes, Acharn Sujin not being forthcoming with an answer when someone asked about that 20-fold description. I will post on my day off. #61750 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 493- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When we abstain from wrong action or wrong speech there is equanimity with the kusala citta. When others, for example, treat us badly or use abusive speech, there can be equanimity, and then there is no impatience, intolerance or anxiety about our own well-being. With evenmindedness one can abstain from answering back harshly or from acts of vengeance. Equanimity is one of the “perfections” the Bodhisatta developed together with right understanding for innumerable lives. When there is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa appearing now there is patience and equanimity, even if the object which is experienced is unpleasant. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61751 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism & Solipsism (was death of dear ones.) sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, You've been writing so many really helpful posts (imho) including many gem quotes. I'm really impressed by your keen attention to detail and the good examples you give. Here's one on the difficult subject of the characteristic of a citta appearing to a subsequent citta: --- Ken O wrote: > k: Maybe the wording of citta becomes an object of another citta is > not properly explain. When a citta becomes an object, it does not > meant the citta still exist. It is the experiencing of the mindstate > (cittas and cetasikas) that has become the object of the next citta. > Just like a strong liking of an object, the pleasant feelings can be > an object for a numerous citta process. Even though the previous > pleasant feeling has fallen away, the experiencing of the pleasant > object has become a strong paccaya for the subsequent mental process. > It becomes an object for the subsequent mental process. .... S: I thought you explained this very clearly (#61001). Also in the next message (#61002), I liked the way you so kindly encouraged Joop to take a break if he feels inclined to do so, but to 'come back at times and say hello'. You went on to say so well that 'here in DSG, we treasure friendship and there will be dhamma friends around to discuss dhammas. It does not matter that we agree or we do not, what matters is that dhamma is shared and learn with each other.' Just my sentiments, too. I was also interested in your comment that you found it 'a gruelling process' at the start. You certainly persevered in coming to terms with all the details through your studies, reflections and lots of questions:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Are you in Singapore or Brunei or somewhere else these days? You referred nostalgically to being in Bkk in 2004. We'll be there mid August for discussions, Azita and others too. Also v.briefly at the beg of Sept. Let me know if you (or anyone else!) want the dates etc. ================== #61752 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abh in Daily Life, no 12. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Every afternoon/evening while we were in the Swiss mountains, Jon would read out the day's posts to me (when he managed to download them which wasn't always easy). We were in an idyllic setting on a verandah overlooking Mt Matterhorn in all its glory. My mother who was staying with us would usually be pottering around, painting or reading a book, so most the time she wasn't listening. However, your comments here really got her attention: --- LBIDD@... wrote: > L: Pleasant softness is a characteristic of a different concept than > unpleasant softness. One might say the softness of a worm is the same as > the softness of spaghetti but the kamma result is different if that > softness is experienced in the mouth. You might trip over a rotting > corpse or you might fall out of a window and land on a rotting corpse. > In one case the softness is a hindrance and in the other the softness is > a help. <....> .... S: Her response was to ask who you were and why you couldn't think about and use happy things such as pretty flowers for examples, instead of rotting corpses and worms...:-). I didn't really have an answer - who can account for different accumulations and tastes? Metta, Sarah ======== #61753 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon and others, > >M: I've put together a collection of suttas which looks at the >interoconnection of the above. I think my understanding has grown >because of the discussion I've had with Jon. Thanks Jon! > This is a great collection of suttas, and I appreciate your effort in putting it together. I, too, have found our exchange helpful in understanding this difficult area. Thanks very much for that! I'm going to limit my comments in this post to the matter of samadhi, as I suspect that is the aspect least understood by most people (including myself!), mainly I think because of the tendency to equate it with samatha. The first 2 suttas in your list talk about the development of samadhi, although they don't say *how* samadhi is to be developed. However, it's clear from these suttas that samadhi can be associated with insight or with samatha. So what is samadhi and how is it developed? To my understanding, samadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, the mental factor of concentration. The entry in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' says: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+Ä?+[root]dhÄ?), is the fixing of the mind on a single object. "One-pointedness of mind (cittass'ekaggatÄ?), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44). Concentration - though often very weak - is one of the 7 mental concomitants inseparably associated with all consciousness. ... Concentration connected with the 4 noble path-moments (magga), and fruition-moments (phala), is called supermundane (lokuttara), having NibbÄ?na as object. Any other concentration, even that of the sublimest absorptions is merely mundane (lokiya). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Samadhi/concentration (ekaggataa) is one of the universal cetasikas, that is to say, it does not have a specific ethical quality of its own (unlike, say, metta, or mindfulness or panna). It can accompany both kusala and akusala cittas. However, in the suttas 'samadhi' always means kusala samadhi (if akusala samadhi is intended, the term 'miccha samadhi' is used). As regards the development of [kusala] samadhi, we have to bear in mind that a citta is kusala by virtue of the accompanying sobhana cetasikas, of which there are many but which do not include samadhi. Now the standard classification of kusala used in the suttas is the 3-fold one of dana, sila and bhavana, where bhavana is of 2 kinds, samatha and vipassana. Thus any reference to the development of samadhi is a reference to the development of one or other of these forms of kusala. There is no such thing as the development of [kusala] samadhi in and of itself. I'd like to refer now to your second sutta quote. Of particular interest is the passage that follows the part you have quoted. Here are both parts, from the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation NDB (slightly truncated) (Pali terms taken from another sutta with a similar passage): <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< There is a development of concentration [samaadhi-bhaavanaa] that leads to: (a) a pleasant dwelling in this very life [di.t.thadhamma-sukha]; (b) obtaining knowledge and vision [~naa.na-dassana-pa.tilaabha]; (c) mindfulness and clear comprehension [sati-sampaja~n~na]; (d) the destruction of the taints [aasavaana.m khaya]. And what, monks, is [that] development of concentration …? Here, (a) secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters and dwells in the first jhaana, … the second jhaana, … the third jhaana, … the fourth jhaana, … This is called the development of concentration that leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life. (b) a monk attends to the perception of light [aalokasa~n~na.m manasikaroti], … he develops a luminous mind [sappabhaasa.m citta.m]. This is called the development of concentration that leads to obtaining knowledge and vision. (c) for a monk feelings are understood as they arise, as they remain present, as they pass away; perceptions are understood …; thoughts are understood … . This is called the development of concentration that leads to mindfulness and clear comprehension. (d) a monk dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging [pa~nc'upaadaana-kkhandesu udayabbayaanupassii] … . This is called the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints. AN IV, 41; NDB #59 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (A footnote to item (b) says: AA explains "knowledge and vision" ['~naa.nadassana'] here as the divine eye, the supernormal power of vision which enables one to see forms at a distance and in other realms and also to understand the process of kammic retribution.) So what is being referred to as the development of samadhi is actually the development of any one or other of: - samatha/jhana - jhana with special powers - insight - enlightenment. The point I wish to make here is that while samadhi is an important factor in the development of both samatha/jhana and insight, it is not a quality that can be developed in and of itself separate from the development of those forms of kusala. Now some brief comments on the other passages in your list that mention samadhi. >A. >'The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated >monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does >he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & >disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... >perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of >consciousness. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html > >M: Note that this sutta clearly asks a monk to develop concentration >(Samadhi). `A concentrated monk, discerns..' It shows leading, from >one to the next. It does not say develop panna, then Samadhi will >arise along with it. > > But as I hope I have shown, samadhi is in fact developed in tandem with panna. >B. >"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which >four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed >& pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is >the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, >leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the >development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads >to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of >concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of >the effluents. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html > >M: The above sutta shows that Samadhi developed in different ways >can have different outcomes. Sometimes it is jhana, sometimes it is >panna. > >... >D. >When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should >develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you >should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of >evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no >evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not >accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you >should develop it endowed with equanimity. >"When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by >you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on >the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside >greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should >train yourself. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.063.than.html > >M: This sutta shows progression of samatha to vipassana. > > Yes, for the person who is accomplished in samatha. That person has the potential to attain enlightenment with jhana as basis. But it is not addressed to those who are not already (or potentially) accomplished in samatha, as I see it. >... > >G. >'When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is >born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the >body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one >content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for >which I directed my my mind has been accomplished. So now I shall >withdraw [directed attention from the image]." He withdraws, and no >longer thinks upon or thinks about [the image]. He understands: "I >am not thinking upon or thinking about [anything]. Inwardly mindful, >I am content." This is directed meditation. >And what is undirected meditation? Not directing his mind outward, a >monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He >understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And >he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully >aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html > >M: This shows the different types of wielding of awareness, one if >directed and focused (leading to Samadhi of samatha type), the >undirected awareness leading to satipatthana type practice. > > Yes. ;-)) >... > >It is clear that it is important in the Buddhist path to develop >both samatha and vipassana. They have been described as two wheels >of the Path. One without the other is a lopsided development. The >Buddha clearly stated he would teach the other, to someone who only >knew one. > >The question is, is there a rudimentary level of Samadhi development >which then branches off in many directions into samatha and >vipassana. I believe there is, as the same word Samadhi is used to >designate a singular quality of mind in all these instances. This is >what makes it possible for samatha to lead to vipassana and vice >versa in a fluid manner. > > I think the suttas emphasise the development of samatha and vipassana, and the importance of samadhi in that development, but without suggesting the need for any separate development of that samadhi. Jon #61754 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina), I really enjoy reading the extracts you transcribe from the recordings with your own comments in between. Here are a few selected comments on nimitta from the Feb discussions (which will be next), relating to some recent questions I think: "The object of satipatthana is a characteristic of reality... but it's the nimitta of reality if it's not the moment of realizing the rising and falling away (or dhammas) - it's still nimitta....." "Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta....When panna grows, it knows the difference between a conditioned dhamma which rises and falls and has nimitta and the unconditioned reality which doesn't have nimitta." "After experiencing the rising and falling away (of dhammas), we know what is meant by a dream. Nothing is left, so we get closer and closer to understanding reality as not sukkha (happy), because of its 3 characteristics (i.e anicca,dukkha, anatta) until nibbana(is experienced which) is different from all realities which keep on arising endlessly when there are conditions." S: This also relates to the comments I gave last time about the only thing of importance being the understanding of dhammas. Dhammas arise and fall away and 'nothing is left' of them. Eventually we have to let go of everything, but of course, if there was no clinging, there'd be no need to develop understanding in the first place! Let's just share extracts without any need to reply anytime. Metta, Sarah ======== #61755 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:01 am Subject: Doctrine and inspiration (Was: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa jwromeijn Hallo Jon, all I changed the name of the thread, because 'doctrine and inspiration' is was interests me most now. It started with your remark about the decline of buddhasana: " But in any event, is there an doctrinal significance in this 'discrepancy'? " When reading this remark it became clear to me: What I really see as a difference between Suttas and texts of commentarors is that Suttas can inspire me, and texts of commentators (I read much) never did. Doctrines are not so important to me, I prefer to trust my 'buddhist intuition'. For the rest of your messages some short reactions: Jon: " The fact is that in the time of the Buddha many became enlightened just on hearing a sutta, and I would say they understood the teachings far better than we do today, whatever the reason for that difference mght be." Joop: I don't agree, or better: we don't know. We don't have any statistical information proving this hypothesis. Jon: "As I recall it, the explanation given is that the 500 years mentioned by the Buddha referred to the disappearance of arahants with abhinna attainments. Joop: That's not correct. Jon: "The kind of thing I have in mind is that not only is it necessary to consider other suttas about DO but also other suttas that don't directly mention DO, too. What was said about DO has to sit together with what was said in, say, the Satipatthana Sutta, or the suttas on the All, on the khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas. DO is not something to be understood in isolation, surely. Joop: Again, this idea of you doesn't give me big problems. But, again, my statement is that one can better read Suttas themselves than commentators . Metta Joop #61756 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. nilovg Hi Sarah, I still do not understand:< it's the nimitta of reality if it's not the moment of realizing the rising and falling away (or dhammas) .> Is this right: if the arising and falling away is realized, one does not know nimitta but the dhamma itself? Nina. Op 23-jul-2006, om 13:29 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > "The object of satipatthana is a characteristic of reality... but > it's the > nimitta of reality if it's not the moment of realizing the rising and > falling away (or dhammas) - it's still nimitta....." > > "Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta....When panna grows, it knows the > difference between a conditioned dhamma which rises and falls and has > nimitta and the unconditioned reality which doesn't have nimitta." #61757 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 7/23/06 7:01:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > To my understanding, samadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, the mental factor of > concentration. The entry in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' says: > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > 'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' > (sam+a+[root]dha), is the fixing of the mind on a single object. > =========================== Exactly what is "the fixing of the mind on a single object" according to Abhidhamma? At any time, there is exactly one object of consciousness. What exactly is the difference when the mental "fixing" is stronger or weaker? There is still exactly the one object. It is there. What is the difference in the manner in which it is there? What is the difference when the mind is *not* strongly "fixed". What I am after is not the word fixed, but the reality of what is happening. Here are some thoughts of mine: Concentration belongs to the sankharakkkhandha, making it a "fabrication". What does it fabricate? I think that one possibility is that one-pointedness is the operation which tends to replicate the object; that is, it is a condition which tends to sustain consciousness on the same object as other cetasikas come and go, rather than more easily flitting from one object to another. Another way of putting it might be that one-pointedness is the inclination to remain with the object or is the absence of an inclination to drop the object; i.e., a kind of cetana, or at least cetana-like. What do you think, Jon? Of course, what I have just proposed may not be right at all. But, then, some other explanation is called for. Merely using the phrase "being firmly fixed" or "fixed on a single object" without further explanation is inadequate, not only because of lack of detail, but more so because there is always but one object, and thus, on that basis, there are no degrees of concentation, the mind being always fixed on the one and only object. With metta, Howard #61758 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:17 am Subject: Re: cittas and functions. scottduncan2 Dear Connie, Your reply was good: C: "thanks for finding my cup the other day." What are neighbours for? C: "I also wanted to tell you not to let the pedophiles get you down, that there are more real things to know in the dark." Good point. Once is enough. And learning to distingiush mind-objects from "real things in the dark" works as well. C: "I like Nina's 'figurative language is used to explain ultimate realities' and don't want to get all hung up on what is presently factual or factually present..." Nor I, I've read the posts. And posted some too, for that matter. "...the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, and are fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves." I'll try again: Are the causes said conventionally to be the agents (when they are not)and that this is just a way of speaking about conditionality? C: "But another little factoid from this analysis of "trifling and insignificant matters" (virtue): <>" Know what to take literally, I guess, would be the aphorism. C: "For your 2nd question, no. In the immediately following frame of our movie, yes, contiguity may be a major star in the mental continuum, but there has to be a full supporting cast. 'For instance,' reads the Guide to Conditional Relations, 'the root, non-delusion, a conditioning state of root condition, possesses as many as twelve conditioning forces, namely: root, predominance, conascence, mutuality, dependence, resultant, faculty, path, association, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance.'" Thats a good clarification, thanks. Conditionality is complex, to say the least. What is the reference you quote? I'll check PTS. Also, please note that contiguity and continuity are not synonymous." Thanks as well. With loving kindness, Scott. #61759 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abh in Daily Life, no 12. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, This gave me a laugh, but please apologize to your mother. It was meant for a juvenal sense of humor. On the other hand, why didn't you explain the difference between kusala and akusala vipaka, or the difference between concept and reality, or between nama and rupa. What is the difference between the beautiful Swiss mountains when you are a tourist and when you are lost in the mountains? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > Every afternoon/evening while we were in the Swiss mountains, Jon would > read out the day's posts to me (when he managed to download them which > wasn't always easy). We were in an idyllic setting on a verandah > overlooking Mt Matterhorn in all its glory. > > My mother who was staying with us would usually be pottering around, > painting or reading a book, so most the time she wasn't listening. > However, your comments here really got her attention: > > --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > L: Pleasant softness is a characteristic of a different concept than > > unpleasant softness. One might say the softness of a worm is the same as > > the softness of spaghetti but the kamma result is different if that > > softness is experienced in the mouth. You might trip over a rotting > > corpse or you might fall out of a window and land on a rotting corpse. > > In one case the softness is a hindrance and in the other the softness is > > a help. <....> > .... > S: Her response was to ask who you were and why you couldn't think about > and use happy things such as pretty flowers for examples, instead of > rotting corpses and worms...:-). > > I didn't really have an answer - who can account for different > accumulations and tastes? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #61760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi nilovg Hi Howard, just butting in with a few words. (no need to answer, I am off tomorrow) Op 23-jul-2006, om 16:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Exactly what is "the fixing of the mind on a single object" according > to Abhidhamma? At any time, there is exactly one object of > consciousness. What > exactly is the difference when the mental "fixing" is stronger or > weaker? > .... ---------- N: It is said that it causes citta to focus on the one object it experiences, but this is all figurative language. So is manasikara, attention, another cetasika that 'drives' citta and cetasikas towards the object. Phassa, contact contacts the object so that citta can experience it. In other words, citta is not alone, it is assisted (firgurative language) by its helpers, the cetasikas. Weaker or stronger: here we take into account that concentration can focus in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way, depending on the fact whether it accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta. If it accompanies kusala citta it is also kusala. Think of the case of jhanacitta or lokuttara citta, the the quality of concentration is superior. ---------- > ... I think that one > possibility is that one-pointedness is the operation which tends to > replicate > the object; that is, it is a condition which tends to sustain > consciousness on > the same object as other cetasikas come and go, rather than more > easily > flitting from one object to another. ------- N: 'As other cetasikas come and go': but they all come and go together with citta. They all sustain citta and share the same object while doing so. They fall away together, and then there is another citta, another contact, concentration, etc. --------- > Another way of putting it might be that > one-pointedness is the inclination to remain with the object or is > the absence of an > inclination to drop the object; i.e., a kind of cetana, or at least > cetana-like. ------ N: Cetana coordinates the tasks of the other cetasikas. They all remain with the object for a very short duration. Applied thought and sustained thought do not accompany each citta, but if they do: applied thought, vitakka, directs the citta towards the object. Sustained thought, vicara, keeps the citta occupied with the object. ---------- > .... there is always but one object, and thus, on that basis, there > are no > degrees of concentration, the mind being always fixed on the one > and only object. ------ N: There are degrees taking into account the fact whether the citta is akusala or kusala, and if the citta is kusala, the quality of concentration is depending on the kind and degree of kusala. Citta and each of the cetasikas are never the same, there are many varieties. Nina. > #61761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. nilovg Hi Phil. I find it very helpful if you quote from the talks you hear. If one is upset it means one is so busy with oneself, and Kh Sujin makes that very clear each time. Yes, very good what Jon said to Lodewijk. It would help people if they understand that there are only moments of citta and that each moment is different. Path is figurative for the purpose of teaching. It would help them to see that the Path is in fact the cetasikas of right understanding, right thinking, etc. It makes me reflect more on sincerity: not to see oneself better or more advanced than one truly is. There is also the aspect to perform kusala with a sincere inclination: one sees the benefit of kusala, and does not think of gaining something for oneself. Nina. Op 23-jul-2006, om 11:42 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Jon: So the paramis of truthfulness must include being honest with > one's kilesa. > > Jon: I said that being on the path was a momentary thing and there > are moments of understanding when one can say that the path is being > developed, but the rest of the time there is no path being developed. > But that is not a cause for concern because even if the moments of > deveopment of the path are few and far between that is already a great > boon and benefit and if one is hearing the right Dhamma and lsitening > to it out of interest then there will be considering and reflecting > and > some moments of kusala perhaps with panna arising. > > Nina: And truthfulness is only a moment, it's not something that I > possess. > > Ph: I can see why people who don't like the notion of the path being > momentary are thrown off by the word "path." WHy did the Buddha choose > such an image, #61762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:46 am Subject: Fwd: Letters from Nina, 14 nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 22 juli 2006 20:07:08 GMT+02:00 > Aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Onderwerp: Letters from Nina, 14 > > Dear friends, > > You asked me how we can realize the conditions of nama and rupa > through being aware of them, and whether that is different from > thinking about conditions. > > There are different degrees of understanding conditions. First one > should have intellectual understanding of conditions. Eye-sense, > for example, is a condition for seeing, since it is the physical > place of origin, the base (vatthu) of seeing. Without eye-sense > there cannot be seeing. Visible object is a condition for seeing by > being its object. Seeing is vipaka-citta, it is produced by kamma. > Kamma-condition is another type of condition. There are different > types of conditions for the phenomena which arise. > > Theoretical understanding of conditions is not the same as pañña > which discerns the conditions of the nama and rupa which appear. > This is a stage of insight which cannot arise before the beginning > stage of insight which is: pañnna which clearly distinguishes > between the characteristic of nama and the characteristic of rupa, > thus, which knows nama as nama and rupa as rupa. > > Seeing is a reality which knows visible object through the eye- > door, it is not self but nama. There is no need to think about > this. Can the characteristic of seeing not be known when it > appears? Seeing is different from visible object. Visible object is > a rupa which can be experienced through the eye-door, it does not > know anything. Hearing is a reality which knows sound through the > ear-door, it is different from sound, a rupa which can be > experienced through the ear-door. Pañña can come to realize that > not a self, not a person sees or hears, but nama, and that nama is > different from rupa. > > Pañña can also come to realize that nama and rupa arise because of > conditions, not without conditions. A higher stage of insight has > been reached when pañña directly discerns the conditions of the > nama and rupa which appear. > > ****** > Nina. #61763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:47 am Subject: Fwd: Abhidhamma in Daily life 33 nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 22 juli 2006 19:57:22 GMT+02:00 > Aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Onderwerp: Abhidhamma in Daily life 33 > > Dear friends, > > We should also know the more subtle lobha which arises when we > enjoy a fragrant smell or beautiful music. It seems that there are > no akusala cittas when we do not harm others, but also the more > subtle lobha is akusala; it is different from generosity which is > kusala. We cannot force ourselves not to have lobha, but we can > come to know the characteristic of lobha when it appears. > Not only the suttas, but also the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for > the monks) gives examples of lobha which is more subtle. Each part > of the teachings, the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma can > help us to know ourselves better. When we read the Vinaya we see > that even monks who lead a life with contentment with little, still > have accumulated conditions for lobha. Every time there was a case > where monks deviated from their purity of life, a rule was laid > down in order to help them to be more watchful. Thus we can > understand the usefulness of the rules, which go into even the > smallest details of the monk's behaviour. The rules help the monk > to be watchful even when performing the most common actions of > daily life such as eating, drinking, robing himself and walking. > There are rules which forbid seemingly innocent actions like > playing in the water or with the water (Expiation, Påcittiya 53), > or teasing other monks. Such actions are not done with kusala > cittas, but with akusala cittas. > We read in the Vinaya (III, Suttavibhaùga, Expiation, Påcittiya 85) > that the monks should not enter a village at the wrong time. The > reason is that they would indulge more easily in worldly talk. We > read: > > Now at that time the group of six monks, having entered a village > at the wrong time, having sat down in a hall, talked a variety of > worldly talk, that is to say: talk of kings, of thieves, of great > ministers, of armies, of fears, of battles, of food, of drink, of > clothes, of beds, of garlands, of scents, of relations, of > vehicles, of villages, of little towns, of towns, of the country, > of women, of strong drink, of streets, of wells, of those departed > before, of diversity, of speculation about the world, about the > sea, on becoming and not becoming thus and thus... > > This passage is useful for laypeople as well. We cannot help > talking about worldly matters, but we should know that our talking, > even if it seems innocent, is often motivated by lobha-múla-cittas > or by dosa-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). In order to > know ourselves we should find out by what kind of citta our talking > is motivated. > > ***** > Nina. #61764 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Ken O, > > k: Vipassana as I said is simply insight. At the moment of arising > of panna, there is vipassana. Which sutta said that the moment of > arising of panna is not vipassana, do you like to quote me one? M: Having the right view that there is this life and the next, belongs to mundane right view according to the mahacattasarica sutta. Right view is an aspect of Panna. But no one in his or her right mind would call that belief vipassana. Besides I fail to see the relanence of your question in the context of what we were talking. Can you clarify more please? If > all is required is to SEE, then animals could be Arahants. It is not > the momemt to moment that matters, it is the understanding that > dhammas is anatta, anicca and dukkha that matters. And this can > arise anytime. M: But since animals arent arahaths and so arent a lot of humans, you might want to try to understand what I meant by SEEing. You might have traffic noise now in the background, of which you are barely aware. If you focus on it, you will be able to distinguish between different types of vehicles. If you focus harder you will hear acceleration, you will hear constant changing of that noise. If you persue this further you will hear traffic noise arising, changing and passing away. What I meant by seeing, was just that type of intense experiencing. If you focus the characteristics of what you are focusing on become clearer -acceleration /moving away moving closer for example. If you persists you start seeing repetitive patterns in what is being experienced. You begin to understand that all sounds are impermanent. This is why continued mindfulness is required, as I have quoted from the suttas. Suttas cleary say the with the development of the noble eightfold path, samatha and vipassana also develop. You say it is not the moment to moment that matters. You look definitions of panna in the suttas, moment to moment is part of the defintion. Moment to moment arising and passing away is simply what cannot be experienced from a book, but mindfulness can show you just that. The understanding of tilkkana is indeed what matters. That is just what arising and passing away shows. You dont have to take it on faith just because a dhamma book says it, you can 'see' it for yourself. It is sandittiko, direct seeing, from this 'fathom long body'. > M: I think that abhidhamma teaches that there is samadhi when panna > > arises .. even as a common factor in every thought moment? In > > either case, the buddha says, as I have quoted, a concentrated > mind, gives rise to panna. How can these two coexist? Only one thing > can be EXPERIENCED at a time. Things can coexist, without being > > experienced. > > k: Hmmm but you forgotten to quote Buddha said about what lead to > concentration. Buddha also said right view (panna) give rise to > right concentration see MN 117 M: You might want to focus on that sutta little more. You will see that it clearly says that right mindfulness gives rise to right concentration. Each preceeding step gives rise to the latter, one after that other, and not together as some have assumed (there is no evidence in the suttas that these arise together at the same time). Panna in the form of Right view is indeed the forerunner of the eightfold path, but then 8th step is samma samadhi which gives rise to yatabutanana. So what is this panna-->samadhi-->panna? It is a positive feedback loop (sutta quote by Howards recently) which grows stronger and 'climbs up upon itself'. So right view is also developed more and more. The right view of a putajjana (mundane) is different from that of an ariya, but both are right views. You might want to see what is the forerunner to right view - it is Saddha. what is the forerunner to that? it is hearing and understanding the dhamma. what is the forerunner to that? it is a good friend bringing you to a dhamma teacher. The line stretches on and on.. (these are in the suttas) > In MN 7, the Smile of the Cloth > << 9. "He considers thus: I possessed of perfect confidence in the > Dhamma,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration > in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the > Dhamma. When he is glad...the mind becomes concentrated. > > 10. "He considers thus: I possessed of perfect confidence in the > Sangha,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration > in the Sangha, gains gladness connected with the > Shangha. When he is glad...the mind becomes concentrated. > > 11. He considers thus: '[The imperfections of the mind] have in part > have been given up, expelled, released, abandoned and relinquished by > me,' and he gains inspiration in the meaning, > gains inspiration of the Dhamma, gain gladness connected with the > Dhamma. When he is glad, rapture is born in him; in one who is > rapturous, the body becomes tranquil; one whose body is tranquil > feels pleasure; one who feels pleasure; in one who feels pleasure, > the mind becomes concentrated.>> > > > In the Digha Nikaya 33 (p497 of Walshe) > 1: """Here the Teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk > Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both > the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this joy arises and > from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he > feels happiness as a result and with this happiness his mind is > established > > 2. Or . ..in the course of teaching Dhamma to others ….his mind is > established…. > > 3.Or.. as he is chanting the Dhamma….his mind is established. > > 4. Or.. when he applies the mind to Dhamma, thinks and ponders over > it and concentrates his attention on it….his mind is established. > > 5.Or.. when he has properly grasped some concentration sign (samadhi- > nimittam) has well considered it , and has well penetrated it by > wisdom..his mind is established.."" end sutta. > M: Excellent. You have found many suttas which talk of many ways in which concentration might arise. Are you saying that these are all instances of panna giving rise to samadhi? When I talk of panna I mean tilakkana, not simply knowing that one has saddha etc as mentioned above. If that were the case everyone has panna. Anyone can know they have faith. When you are focused in samatha you will know your oject of meditation very well naturally as in your last quote. That is simply not being brain dead. That is not panna in my book. "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... I think it is clear that certain amount of samadhi is required for panna of the type which arises from direct experiencing, perhaps not for the book knowledge type or very weak types. If you want to experience directly, this samadhi needs to be developed by various means. > K: furthermore, who said there is need to have concentrated mind in > order to have panna. For a long time I have known the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One that 'There is knowledge for one who is concentrated, not for one who is not concentrated.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.073.than.html K: You should look at MN 148 Six sets of six, too > lazy to type it out :-). M: You should try cut and paste. If you look at the end of that sutta you will see: "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. -MN 48 M: You are not going to see any arising and passing away just from book knowledge. To see that, you need constant mindfulness. All the components in the sutta above this can be directly experienced. If you believe that there is no self just because the book says it, you might as well believe that there is a God as well. These things can be and need to be personally verified - that is the spirit of buddhism. with metta Matheesha #61765 From: Daniel Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:19 am Subject: Re : Motivation sbhtkk Hi all, I read the examples, thank you for them. I think I am somehow brainwashed by the idea that "Whatever you do to others, returns to you like a boomerang". I was taught this, as a "stimulation" not to harm others. 'If you behave badly to others, they will behave badly to you. So do not!'. But is this really true? Maybe it has meaning within the context of many lifetimes. But do you think it is always true, within the context of one lifetime? For example, people sometimes behave badly to you simply because they are in a bad mood... It might be that the response of other people depends not only on your behaviour, but also on their personality. Do you agree? Yours, Daniel #61766 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Also, the matter of anatta is complex, deep, multi-faceted, and hard > for all of us to grasp, especially since there is a lot to it. It is not just > absence of a soul or personal self, nor just the fact of merely imputed reality > of what is conceptually fabricated, nor just impersonality of dhammas, nor > not just lack controllability (at will) of dhammas, nor just insubstantiality of > dhammas, nor just the fleeting nature of dhammas, nor just dependent > origination of and lack of own-being in dhammas. And each of these aspects of anatta, > as it actually is, and not just as grasped theoretically by intellect, is, I > am certain, radically stranger than we imagine. From my one brief no-self > experience, I saw that actually experiencing, even briefly, the fact of personal > non-identity, actually losing, temporarily, all sense of "I", is *shockingly > diffferent* from how we might imagine it to be. And that is just one aspect of > anatta. > ---------------------------------------------- > I'll have another look at the Kaccanagotta Sutta > > > and think about it some more. As we live in a sphere where vinanna and > > rupa are "interdependent", there's no wonder it is a difficult > > subject. I suspect I do think of rupa as materiality and consciousness > > as some form of energy that relies upon the presence of materiality in > > some way. If I could see the difference between the 2, then I'd be > > able to distinguish nama from rupa. If I could see how they relate, > > then I'd understand conditionality. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that the distinction made by Abhidhamma is rather clear: > Rupas, the most basic objects of consciousness, may be known in many ways, > including as mere object (the operation of vi~n~nana), by affective "taste" (the > operation of vedana), and by categorization (the operation of sa~n~na), and other > ways, but they are never, themselves, knowings, in any way. > As for grasping conditionality, that is a long, hard process. And it > is not only a matter of seeing how nama and rupa relate, though that is > important. Nothing whatsoever arises except out of the confluence of conditions. > Dependencies are complex, including forward, backword, and simultaneous-support > dependencies. The more carefully and consistently and *finely* we examine > dhammas as they arise, from a base of a calmed and clarified mind, and with an eye > to seeing how and in what context they arise and cease, the more visible will > be the patterns of conditionality and dependence, and the more and more > clearly will the anatta of dhammas be revealed. Dear Howard A beautifully composed post with a foundation of many hours of wise reflection. Thank you. Best wishes Andrew #61767 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/23/06 6:54:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > Dear Howard > > A beautifully composed post with a foundation of many hours of wise > reflection. Thank you. > > Best wishes > Andrew > ========================= Thank you! Not only am I happy that you think so, but I VERy muchappreciate your kindness in saying so! With metta, Howard #61768 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:43 pm Subject: What did Sarah say to Betty? philofillet Hi Sarah and all I'm exhausted this morning and the hardest day of my week is here. It's been raining for over a week, and though my seasonal affective disorder doesn't seem to be as strong as it used to, a week of rain has its impact. I heard a talk recently in which Betty says that something Sarah told her helped her deal with the great slew of harsh vipaka that was falling her way. I'm curious about what Sarah said and I'm going to ponder it today. We know of course that remembering and understanding to the degree that we are capable that all that befalls us through the six doors is vipaka, and that it is conditioned dhamma, and that our response to it, whther kusala or akusala, is also conditioned dhamma - remembering this and understanding it - that is what it's all about. BTW, I've seen a couple of references lately to "book learning" or something like that. It seems that the methodic meditators think that anything other than their method is book learning and is not actually "practice". I'd like to know in what way seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking through the six doors is book learning. That's a rhetorical question, because I know it isn't. Objects are there for understanding, wherever we are and whatever we are doing. The practice arises with dhammas that are understood through the six doors. That seems patently obvious to me. Anyways, back to what Sarah said to Betty. Sarah (or Betty) don't post about it now, but I might ask you later to dredge it up for us, if possible. Phil p.s posting this has given me a moment of gratitude to the Buddha and strengthened me for the hard day ahead. Today I will reflect on the key border zone between vipaka and the kusala or akusala response that follows. #61769 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:08 pm Subject: Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear All, I just read, in the Samyutta Nikaya, the following (SN:1.1.1): "I heard thus. Once the Blessed one lived in Saavatthi, in Jeta's grove in the monastery offered by Anaathapi.n.dika. When the night was waning, a certain deity illuminated the whole of Jeta's grove approached the Blessed One, worshipped, stood on a side and said, 'Venerable Sir, how did you cross the Flood?' 'Friend, I crossed the flood not taking a footing and not exerting.' 'Venerable Sir, not taking a footing and not exerting, in which manner did you cross the flood...?' 'Friend, when standing I sank, when exerting I was led astray, therefore not standing, not exerting I crossed the flood...' I'm sure you've all read this, but I thought it served as a good sutta to consider when contemplating the oft examined dichotomy of practise versus no practise in the light of anatta. Any thoughts? With loving kindness, Scott. #61770 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:53 pm Subject: Re: What did Sarah say to Betty? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah and all > > I'm exhausted this morning and the hardest day of my week is > here. It's been raining for over a week, and though my seasonal > affective disorder doesn't seem to be as strong as it used to, a > week of rain has its impact. > > I heard a talk recently in which Betty says that something Sarah > told her helped her deal with the great slew of harsh vipaka that > was falling her way. > > I'm curious about what Sarah said and I'm going to ponder it > today. We know of course that remembering and understanding to the > degree that we are capable that all that befalls us through the six > doors is vipaka, and that it is conditioned dhamma, and that our > response to it, whther kusala or akusala, is also conditioned > dhamma - remembering this and understanding it - that is what it's > all about. James: I don't know what Sarah said, but I'm sorry you are having a hard time nowadays. We could all use a little support in times like that, so I offer you some words of Zen Buddhism: "First, suffering injustice. When those who search for the Path encounter adversity, they should think to themselves, "In Countless ages gone by, I've turned from the essential to the trivial and wandered through all manner of existence, often angry without cause and guilty of numberless transgressions. Now, though I do no wrong, I'm punished by my past. Neither gods nor men can foresee when an evil deed will bear its fruit. I accept it with an open heart and without complaint of injustice. The sutras say " when you meet with adversity don't be upset because it makes sense." With such understanding you're in harmony with reason. And by suffering injustice you enter the Path." > > BTW, I've seen a couple of references lately to "book learning" or > something like that. James: I made a comment to Scott about Nina's approach being like belonging to a book club- studying and discussing as the whole path of practice. I thought it was a quite clever and accurate description! ;-)) It seems that the methodic meditators think > that anything other than their method is book learning and is not > actually "practice". James: Oh, you already know what I think about that; and really I think that this group should try to stop polarizing people into "meditators" and "non-meditators". Rather than emphasizing differences we should look for common ground. Yeah, Phil, I sit in meditation focusing on the breath and radiating loving kindness, does that make me all that different from you? Don't we both have the triple gem as our refuge? Don't we both have the same goal in mind? I'd like to know in what way seeing, hearing, > tasting, touching, smelling and thinking through the six doors is > book learning. James: No, of course those things aren't book learning, but you really have to question if you are really doing them. Phil, be honest with yourself: are you really seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and knowing? If so, then more power to you!! Great!! If not, then you should re-evaluate your approach. That's a rhetorical question, because I know it > isn't. Objects are there for understanding, wherever we are and > whatever we are doing. The practice arises with dhammas that are > understood through the six doors. That seems patently obvious to me. > > Anyways, back to what Sarah said to Betty. Sarah (or Betty) don't > post about it now, but I might ask you later to dredge it up for us, > if possible. > > Phil Metta, James > > p.s posting this has given me a moment of gratitude to the Buddha > and strengthened me for the hard day ahead. Today I will reflect on > the key border zone between vipaka and the kusala or akusala > response that follows. > James: I hope that you will consider my response as the kusala I intended. :-) #61772 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:11 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear James, My apologies for not replying sooner. Your recent post to Phil reminded me that this was on the back burner: J: "Nothing personal against Nina, but I really believe that she is steering you in the wrong direction when it comes to bhaavana (mental development). She makes it seem as if being a lay Buddhist is simply about reading and discussing the dhamma; as if it were nothing more than belonging to a book club. I know that you don't want to hear this, but there is much more involved in being a lay Buddhist. May I suggest you read this article about Lay Buddhist Practice so that you can see another perspective?: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khantipalo/wheel206.html" Yes, I've read portions of this, and will go back to it, upon your recommendation. What in particular would you direct my attention to, since I'm somewhat familiar with it? I'd enjoy discussing it with you. I don't mind hearing what you have to say at all. Ps. Thanks again for your well wishes. Yes, I am quite relieved that the problem with my mother doesn't involve cancer. You're welcome, James. With loving kindness, Scott. #61773 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/23/06 10:09:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear All, > > I just read, in the Samyutta Nikaya, the following (SN:1.1.1): > > "I heard thus. Once the Blessed one lived in Saavatthi, in Jeta's > grove in the monastery offered by Anaathapi.n.dika. When the night > was waning, a certain deity illuminated the whole of Jeta's grove > approached the Blessed One, worshipped, stood on a side and said, > > 'Venerable Sir, how did you cross the Flood?' > > 'Friend, I crossed the flood not taking a footing and not exerting.' > > 'Venerable Sir, not taking a footing and not exerting, in which manner > did you cross the flood...?' > > 'Friend, when standing I sank, when exerting I was led astray, > therefore not standing, not exerting I crossed the flood...' > > I'm sure you've all read this, but I thought it served as a good sutta > to consider when contemplating the oft examined dichotomy of practise > versus no practise in the light of anatta. > > Any thoughts? > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ============================== The middle way: A non-doing doing (the wu-wei of Taoism and Ch'an); doing what is useful to do with craving in abeyance and sense-of-self in abeyance; the mode of selfless action of an advanced practitioner who has reached that stage. With metta, Howard #61774 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Hello, and thanks for the reply. H: "The middle way: A non-doing doing (the wu-wei of Taoism and Ch'an); doing what is useful to do with craving in abeyance and sense-of-self in abeyance; the mode of selfless action of an advanced practitioner who has reached that stage." Is "a non-doing doing" expressed as the dhammas, appropriate to accumulations and conditions, arising and falling away? With loving kindness, Scott. #61775 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:02 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Yes, I've read portions of this, and will go back to it, upon your > recommendation. What in particular would you direct my attention to, > since I'm somewhat familiar with it? Well, I think it's important to read the entire article, from beginning to end, soaking it all in, so that there won't be the danger of just considering what already agrees with one's viewpoints. However, I really like what is written in the summary: "This is simply to generate some zeal for Dhamma in oneself. To bring the Dhamma to life in oneself. To get away from reading books on it and into doing it. Not just to take a mild intellectual interest in it but to make it the basis of one's life. Not only to go to an occasional lecture on the subject but to consider. "What can I DO?" Not to be content to play with the ideas of "Buddhism" — making sure that these do not touch one's precious self, but to get into Dhamma so that what is rotten in oneself is changed. Not to haggle about the finer points of atta and anatta (self-and non-self) when one has not even got round to making effort with the Five Precepts. Not to talk of the Void while one harbors hatred in one's heart. Not to be way up there with subtle ideas but to get down to being loving and generous. Not to be swayed at every turn by the world but to have a discipline based on Dhamma for one's life." Metta, James #61776 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:19 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear James, Hey there. Thanks. J: "Well, I think it's important to read the entire article, from beginning to end, soaking it all in, so that there won't be the danger of just considering what already agrees with one's viewpoints." Okay, give me a few days, and I'll get back to you. J: "However, I really like what is written in the summary: 'This is simply to generate some zeal for Dhamma in oneself. To bring the Dhamma to life in oneself. To get away from reading books on it and into doing it. Not just to take a mild intellectual interest in it but to make it the basis of one's life. Not only to go to an occasional lecture on the subject but to consider. "What can I DO?" Not to be content to play with the ideas of "Buddhism" � making sure that these do not touch one's precious self, but to get into Dhamma so that what is rotten in oneself is changed. Not to haggle about the finer points of atta and anatta (self-and non-self) when one has not even got round to making effort with the Five Precepts. Not to talk of the Void while one harbors hatred in one's heart. Not to be way up there with subtle ideas but to get down to being loving and generous. Not to be swayed at every turn by the world but to have a discipline based on Dhamma for one's life.'" Yes, good points all. If I come across as an academic or guy-only-interested-in-study its because I'm still trying to situate myself doctrinally and positionally within Buddhism. I only ask the questions that I do because of what I'm trying to clarify. I can't just adopt some outward stance, look like a Buddhist, or dress like a Buddhist. I'm not able to just adopt some unfamiliar rituals and feel like "a buddhist." It would feel all wrong and forced and put on. I agree with the need to have the Dhamma come to live itself in me. I just don't want you to get me all wrong, that's all. Anyway... Off to read. See you in a few days... With loving kindness, Scott. #61777 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Andrew T, I was also intending to compliment you (Howard) on the following description of the complexity and depth involved in the understanding of anatta: upasaka@... wrote: > Also, the matter of anatta is complex, deep, multi-faceted, and hard > for all of us to grasp, especially since there is a lot to it. It is not just > absence of a soul or personal self, nor just the fact of merely imputed reality > of what is conceptually fabricated, nor just impersonality of dhammas, nor > not just lack controllability (at will) of dhammas, nor just insubstantiality of > dhammas, nor just the fleeting nature of dhammas, nor just dependent > origination of and lack of own-being in dhammas. And each of these aspects of anatta, > as it actually is, and not just as grasped theoretically by intellect, is, I > am certain, radically stranger than we imagine ***** S: As I mentioned the other day in a post on sakkaya ditthi, we usually have very little idea of the deeply ingrained clinging to ideas of self. I was listening to a discussion in India 05* and K.Sujin was making some comments which echo yours on the complexity and depth of ditthi. She was stressing that panna has to develop and understand the characteristics of dhammas 'on and on and on and on until the idea of self is completely eradicated'. Such understanding has to become one's habit and one starts to realize that this (eradication of the idea of self) is impossible without the higher panna or higher vipassana nanas, because it takes such clarity of wisdom to really penetrate the dhammas. 'The idea of self is so very deep rooted'. Even though there is nothing but a reality appearing, it still seems to be 'me', or it's 'I' or it belongs to me, Even if we understand about miccha ditthi or about clinging with self-view, even though we say or know it's just a reality, such as hardness or heat or cold, 'it's still 'me' or 'my body', 'part of my body' '. Like now, she was stressing, we think that we have teeth, but really 'it's only in memory'. They don't appear and there are only conditioned dhammas, rupas arising and falling away so fast, 'so no teeth!'. 'Actually it's just a moment of experiencing a reality and then gone, completely never to come back.... So what do we have in life? Nothing, just a moment of experiencing and then gone away, all the time....' ***** Howard, we often discuss (and disagree) on some fine details, but sometimes it's good to agree on the really essential aspects of the teachings, such as the depth of meaning of anatta, which I think that your comments and K.Sujin's both stress so well. Metta, Sarah p.s *If you and Andrew (or anyone else) have time to listen to that segment (only 20mins), I'd be interested to hear your feedback. [www.dhammastudygroup.org - India 2005, Sarnath (1)] ======== #61778 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:14 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 494- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There are several other kinds of equanimity. There is equanimity in samatha and equanimity in vipassanå. When calm is developed or when there is right understanding of the present moment there is equanimity which performs its function. The Visuddhimagga mentions some aspects of equanimity which are equanimity of samatha and some which are equanimity of vipassanå. One of the aspects of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga is equanimity as one of the “divine abidings” (brahmavihåraupekkhå) and this is developed in samatha (Vis. IV, 158). As we have seen, there are four “divine abidings” which are objects of calm: loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. When loving kindness is developed one wishes that other beings may be happy. When compassion is developed one wishes beings to be free from suffering. When sympathetic joy is developed one wishes beings’ success. When equanimity is developed one does not think of promoting other beings’ happiness, alleviating their misery or wishing their success, but one views them with impartiality. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61779 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:34 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting ken_aitch Hi Scott, ------------- <. . .> S: > 'Friend, when standing I sank, when exerting I was led astray, therefore not standing, not exerting I crossed the flood...' I'm sure you've all read this, but I thought it served as a good sutta to consider when contemplating the oft examined dichotomy of practise versus no practise in the light of anatta. Any thoughts? ------------ Firstly, I would like to correct you: the oft examined dichotomy is between formal practice and the Middle Way. I agree that this sutta addresses the dichotomy. However, I don't think it does so any more specifically than do the other suttas. Basically, this is one of many suttas that compare the Dhamma with all the other possible views of the world. As I understand it, striving refers to the extreme of eternity belief, and standing-still refers to the extreme of annihilation belief. If we believe in a self that will be reborn in heaven or in hell then we strive to ensure it will be the former. If we believe in a self that will not be reborn at all, then we don't bother. By all conventional standards, it has to be one or the other: if there is a middle way then it has to be some kind of compromise - not too much striving and not too much standing still. But the Middle Way is not a compromise. Therefore, it is profoundly hard to see. Even when it is described at the intellectual level, it remains hard to grasp (or hard to accept). Unable to grasp or accept the Middle Way, most Buddhists forge ahead with conventional practices belonging to eternalist religions. I can't blame them because I did that too, before joining DSG and studying Abhidhamma. Ken H #61780 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:34 am Subject: Re: What did Sarah say to Betty? philofillet Hi James We could all use a little support in times like > that, so I offer you some words of Zen Buddhism: > > "First, suffering injustice. When those who search for the Path > encounter adversity, they should think to themselves, "In Countless > ages gone by, I've turned from the essential to the trivial and > wandered through all manner of existence, often angry without cause > and guilty of numberless transgressions. > Now, though I do no wrong, I'm punished by my past. Neither gods nor > men can foresee when an evil deed will bear its fruit. I accept it > with an open heart and without complaint of injustice. The sutras > say " when you meet with adversity don't be upset because it makes > sense." With such understanding you're in harmony with reason. And > by suffering injustice you enter the Path." > Thanks James. Yes, there are times I remember this. Take the vipaka now in an understanding way, don't produce more negativity/unwholesomeneses. Definitely, if we keep open to the Buddha's teaching understanding leads in this direction. Also, more conventionally, should remember that being exhausted from a job that I enjoy and helps people is preferable to being exhausted from one that isn't/doesn't.. Anyways, exhausted now after work. Thanks for the support. I don't know if it's kusala or not. Only you can know that, moment by moment. But I know you're a nice caring person. I guess you're on your way out of Egypt any day now. Moving is so stressful, especially when it means going so far away from loved ones. (Amr and the cats.) Wishing you well. Phil #61781 From: mangesh dahiwale Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:26 am Subject: Invitation for an International conference on Dr. Ambedkar and developments in Modern Buddhist World mdahiwale Dear brothers and sisters in the Dhamma- I am very pleased to invite you to mark 2550 years of Buddha's enlightenment and 50 years of Dr. Ambedkar's conversion to Buddhism. This year we are celebrating this twin occasion by arranging a conference on Dr. Ambedkar and developments in Modern Buddhist World. Many Indians, mostly from deprived sections of the society, are becoming interested in the Buddha Dhamma taking inspiration from Dr. Ambedkar. Significant Buddhist movement is emerging in India. This movement is likely to grow spiritually and numerically in the future. Please find attached herewith detaisl of the conference. With metta, Mangesh Dahiwale #61782 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting (to Jon) philofillet Hi Jon and all > S: > 'Friend, when standing I sank, when exerting I was led astray, > therefore not standing, not exerting I crossed the flood...' > > I'm sure you've all read this, but I thought it served as a good sutta > to consider when contemplating the oft examined dichotomy of practise > versus no practise in the light of anatta. Jon, maybe you could add a note about a Thai expression I heard today. mai X mai Y (forget it now, two words starting with p) that get at this dynamic. I've started studying Thai now and then by listening to some podcasts. I used to know a smattering. Fun to get back into it. I can't get enough of Acharn Sujin - wanna listen to her in Thai too, someday. Phil #61783 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman egberdina Dear Andrew, On 15/07/06, Andrew wrote: > > > Hi Herman > > I want to apologise for saying that your post was outrageous and that I > thought the idea was nutty. Clearly this was over the top and out of > order and I apologise unreservedly. > > As Jon has said, your posts are always challenging and for the less > patient like me, this can sometimes lead to a hasty response. > > Sorry if I have upset you or anyone else on the list. > I suppose the right thing to do would be to thank you for and accept your apology. But I am not inclined that way. I am not writing in anger. I have let this lie for quite some time, and feel exactly the same now as I did when you first wrote the above. I have no problems in dealing with your reasoning, or lack of it, from time to time. What really stung me, though, about your personal attack was that I received support from a lone acquarian only. Let me translate this into real life, bearing in mind that I have just returned from Melbourne. I step onto this tram, right, and its full of geezas wearing the dsg colours, singing like the K Sujin song, right. And I say something random, and this dude wallops me. I sit down stunned for a minute, and except for this old fella, an acquarian, yelling out "hey youse, stop it", the crowd is silent. I stumble off the tram. Back to Bathurst. I don't know if you have ever been assaulted publicly, Andrew, but let me assure you that silence is assent. I have been assaulted by the whole group, save the acquarian. I have waited for a week and a bit, and I have read all the things you have written that serve to justify everything you do, and I have read the silence of the group. I have wanted to reply to a number of things you have writtten, but I have felt the fear of again being silently assaulted by the group as a whole (save lone acquarian). You, and the group, have succeeded in intimidating me. Well done. As for your apology, I am not an idiot. There is a past, you know, and a future. Suffice it to say that serial wife beaters also apologise, serially. Its part of the game. Herman #61785 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:37 am Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi matheesha333 Hi Jon, >J: I think the suttas emphasise the development of samatha and vipassana, > and the importance of samadhi in that development, but without > suggesting the need for any separate development of that samadhi. > M: I agree with the above, but what would you say if I suggested that samatha samadhi developed to a some degree (ie-being one pointed, but not enough to give rise to jhana), can be used, as in 'vipassana based on samatha' of the yuganadda sutta? What does it mean to based on samatha? The here and now, tangible result of samatha, which is present even immediately after it is stopped (unlike jhana),is samadhi, a unified, one pointed mind. Does this samadhi citta 'apply' to everything it touches after that - I think it does, based on my experience, but also abhidhamma would agree as well I think that if a mind was unified (a strong samadhi) it would apply to whatever arises in conjunction with that citta. 'For a long time I have known the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One that 'There is knowledge for one who is concentrated, not for one who is not concentrated.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.073.than.html M: I think the above sentence says it clearly, that there has to be a degree of concentration for 'knowledge' (by which I believe means knowledge arising from direct experiencing and not really relavent for other types of panna) ,as can be seen as well from the sutta below "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... (sorry I seemed to have lost the reference link). >H:As I see it, there needs to be neither total absorption with the >mind unable to see see anything but a single focus, nor a mind that is like >the choppy surface of a pond roiled by powerful storm winds. > >J (to Howard): An interesting idea, but raises more questions than it answers ;-)) If there is an 'ideal' state of mind that is neither samatha/jhana nor distracted/active, but in a 'sweet spot' somewhere in between, why don't we find this spelt out in the recorded teachings? M: Well as I have quoted, the idea that samadhi is required for direct experiencing and panna that generates, seems clear. As to how much samadhi that is, is I agree, not that clear. If you say it is Access concentration I would probably agree with you. I suspect it has some to do with partial suppression of hindrences as well. M: Just to let you know of the incompatibility of thoughts (papanca) and concentration: "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. -vitakkasantana sutta with metta Matheesha #61786 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the abhidhamma of existentialism egberdina Hi Larry, On 12/07/06, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > > Hi Herman, > > Votthapana citta defines or determines the object but does not determine > the javana. > > CMA p.44: "In the five-door process, determining consciousness succeeds > the investigating consciousness. After the investigating consciousness > has examined the object, the determining consciousness discriminates it. > I'm afraid this does not enlighten me (my failing). Determining consciousness discriminates it"s object? I'm not having a go at you here, but it seems very circular. What is the upshot of discriminating? Kind Regards Herman #61787 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The fourth "bodily Tie." dualism. egberdina Hi Nina and please include Lodewijk, I have to become more direct. Only to make sense of the discussions. Please excuse the directness, and please don't mistake it for unkindness. Actually, you acknowledge the kindness of many folks here, and by omission, clearly identify those who you think are unkind. Do you think that agreement is kindness? On 06/07/06, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Hi Herman, Howard, > thank you, Herman. Howard has also answered this. > > Anyway, the terms mind and body are conventional. > In the ultimate sense there are naama and ruupa and as, Howard says, > distinguishable and interdependent. Is there a difference between you reading from your books to a cardboard cutout, and reading from your books to Lodewijk? Kind Regards Herman PS Please tell Lodewijk that I feel for him. Some of my family have been demented and I know it is necessary but not pleasant to care for them. #61788 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/23/06 11:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Hello, and thanks for the reply. > > H: "The middle way: A non-doing doing (the wu-wei of Taoism and > Ch'an); doing what is useful to do with craving in abeyance and > sense-of-self in abeyance; the mode of selfless action of an advanced > practitioner who has reached that stage." > > Is "a non-doing doing" expressed as the dhammas, appropriate to > accumulations and conditions, arising and falling away? ---------------------------------------- Howard: It is a conventional way of putting it. There is never any "being" who is a doer, but to speak of "doing" when describing selfless chanda and cetana is not so very inappropriate. I admit that there is a hint of "doer" when speaking of "doing", but no more than a hint when the word is prefixed by the adjective "non-doing". And, you know, need we be more fastidious in speech than even the Buddha? What is it that I was interpreting? What was it I called it a "non-doing doing"? I was interpreting the Buddha saying "'Friend, I crossed the flood not taking a footing and not exerting." Is the Buddha's statement less personal in form? ----------------------------------------- > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > =================== With metta, Howard #61789 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard In a message dated 7/24/06 5:25:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard & Andrew T, > I was also intending to compliment you (Howard) on the following > description of the complexity and depth involved in the understanding of > anatta: upasaka@... wrote: > Also, the matter of anatta is complex, deep, multi-faceted, and hard > for all of us to grasp, especially since there is a lot to it. It is not just > absence of a soul or personal self, nor just the fact of merely imputed reality > of what is conceptually fabricated, nor just impersonality of dhammas, nor > not just lack controllability (at will) of dhammas, nor just insubstantiality of > dhammas, nor just the fleeting nature of dhammas, nor just dependent > origination of and lack of own-being in dhammas. And each of these aspects of anatta, > as it actually is, and not just as grasped theoretically by intellect, is, I > am certain, radically stranger than we imagine > Howard, we often discuss (and disagree) on some fine details, but > sometimes it's good to agree on the really essential aspects of the > teachings, such as the depth of meaning of anatta, which I think that your > comments and K.Sujin's both stress so well. > -------------------------------------- Howard: It is indeed wonderful to agree on important essentials, which we certainly do! And thank you, Sarah, for your generous comments. :-) ==================== With metta, Howard #61790 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the clarification, although I think it was only partial. Howard: "It is a conventional way of putting it. There is never any 'being' who is a doer, but to speak of 'doing' when describing selfless chanda and cetana is not so very inappropriate." No, quite correct. I think I was just a little concrete in attempting to sort of cross-correlate the term you put forward with the more or less "standard" idiom. H: "I admit that there is a hint of 'doer' when speaking of 'doing', but no more than a hint when the word is prefixed by the adjective 'non-doing'. And, you know, need we be more fastidious in speech than even the Buddha?" Nope. The conventional, figurative language is essential for communication purposes. There was no mix-up for me in this case. H: "What is it that I was interpreting? What was it I called it a 'non-doing doing'? I was interpreting the Buddha saying 'Friend, I crossed the flood not taking a footing and not exerting.' Is the Buddha's statement less personal in form?" Again, no. It is a given that the Buddha had no misunderstandings about the literal meanings of his words when he spoke in conventional terms. Actually, there was no critique implied in my question, just a desire to, as I say, understand the term "non-doing doing" so we are on the same page. The "non-doing doing" you connect to chanda and cetanaa, for example. Can you say more regarding how these two cetasikas assist in this "way of being?" (Say quickly to yourself with "radio voice": Conventional usage only, batteries not included). With loving kindness, Scott. #61791 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Sorry, one more thought before its off on the daily grind: If, for example, in the midst of the daily grind I find myself faced with feelings of impatience and then think of the idea of patience-restraint (as a virtue) and take up a more patient attitude, did I "do" that or did it arise in me? With loving kindness, Scott. #61792 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello* egberdina Hi Jon, On 17/07/06, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding. By 'reason' I meant > 'substance', not 'reasonableness'. (This was a reference, half in jest, > to keeping to the topic under discussion (the need for a non-active > mind) rather than introducing issues such as the fakeness of the term > 'kusala', which seemed rather tangential to the discussion (not that > there are any rules about such things).) I can assure you I saw nothing > unreasonable in your post, nor did I mean to suggest there was. > I mean nothing more than that the Satipatthana Sutta is not about discursive thinking. Any discursive thinking about it is going to miss the mark. Notice the absence of the following from the Sutta, though I see you trying : "He discursively thinks, knowing, I discursively think". Yo, bro Herman #61793 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting egberdina No respect here, Scott, In the best interests of your children, adopt them out. > Dear Howard, > > Sorry, one more thought before its off on the daily grind: > > If, for example, in the midst of the daily grind I find myself faced > with feelings of impatience and then think of the idea of > patience-restraint (as a virtue) and take up a more patient attitude, > did I "do" that or did it arise in me? > Did you write this post, or did it just happen? I guess that even your reply will just happen Like I said No respect, it happens Herman #61794 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/24/06 9:50:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the clarification, although I think it was only partial. > > Howard: "It is a conventional way of putting it. There is never any > 'being' who is a doer, but to speak of 'doing' when describing > selfless chanda and cetana is not so very inappropriate." > > No, quite correct. I think I was just a little concrete in attempting > to sort of cross-correlate the term you put forward with the more or > less "standard" idiom. ---------------------------------- Howard: I'm not certain that I understand what you mean here. Do you mean you were pointing to the facts that underly the conventional speech? ---------------------------------- > > H: "I admit that there is a hint of 'doer' when speaking of 'doing', > but no more than a hint when the word is prefixed by the adjective > 'non-doing'. And, you know, need we be more fastidious in speech than > even the Buddha?" > > Nope. The conventional, figurative language is essential for > communication purposes. There was no mix-up for me in this case. > > H: "What is it that I was interpreting? What was it I called it a > 'non-doing doing'? I was interpreting the Buddha saying 'Friend, I > crossed the flood not taking a footing and not exerting.' Is the > Buddha's statement less personal in form?" > > Again, no. It is a given that the Buddha had no misunderstandings > about the literal meanings of his words when he spoke in conventional > terms. Actually, there was no critique implied in my question, just a > desire to, as I say, understand the term "non-doing doing" so we are > on the same page. --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, gotcha! :-) ------------------------------------- > > The "non-doing doing" you connect to chanda and cetanaa, for example. > Can you say more regarding how these two cetasikas assist in this > "way of being?" > ------------------------------------ Howard: Not much to say: Neutral chanda and cetana, free of sense of self and of craving, or at least not overwhelmed by them, along with viriya and other factors, constitute what I meant by "non-doing doing". ------------------------------------------------- (Say quickly to yourself with "radio voice": > > Conventional usage only, batteries not included). > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ====================== With metta, Howard #61795 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/24/06 10:05:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Sorry, one more thought before its off on the daily grind: > > If, for example, in the midst of the daily grind I find myself faced > with feelings of impatience and then think of the idea of > patience-restraint (as a virtue) and take up a more patient attitude, > did I "do" that or did it arise in me? --------------------------------- Howard: The more-patient attitude arose conditioned by the recollection of khanti. Conventionally speaking: Your recalling the virtue of patience enabled you to be more patient. Both formulations are true, the 1st literally, the 2nd figuratively. other point: To the extent that there was a thought or even a sense of "you" being more patient, the "doing" was an atta-bound doing. To the extent that such attachment and wrong view were missing, the doing was a "non-doing doing". In either case, the patience was "good", and the cultivating of it was "good", because khanti, besides being useful socially and in terms of attaining various goals, is calming and reductive of craving. ----------------------------------------- > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > =================== With metta, Howard #61796 From: connie Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:25 am Subject: re: cittas and functions nichiconn dear Scott, s: And learning to distinguish mind-objects from "real things in the dark" works as well. c: & only glimmer (if mem serves) is visible object. "sorta like that" i remind myself when i wonder what a significator is standing on pointing out. we're already way off into derivative land, but how does one go about 'living life' without any concept? living, continuity. the old perversions. life = jivitindriya, a cetasika, isn't it? (and i may be over-stating, but) that which gives these cittas the opportunity to force rupa to sweat. it's been on the warm side in this high desert plains area pretty much since day one of summer - like calendarwork, man. still 112F after work today... long day, but fun. the hotel maintenance guy's last & when he finally ended up in the pool, this hostage went with him. friends? where! mostly in the dark. s: "...the conventional designation of agency is applicable to causes which are effective through their contiguity, and are fixed in their capacity to give results adequate to themselves." I'll try again: Are the causes said conventionally to be the agents (when they are not)and that this is just a way of speaking about conditionality? c: like they are process servers and we only talk about them after they've come and gone, yeah? Texts are full of similes. The king's ministers come to mind. However (happily) indebted we are to the translators, remember that they are traitors when you are tempted to take them at their word, I guess... like Phil joking about heroin when we know he's after the real dope: "cessation by deliverance & destruction" ~ nissara.na & samuccheda nirodha. "it is just like gold which will enslave a person who earnestly desires it".... that's just another nice line from the *Guide to Conditional Relations, the section on Analogies of Object Predominance Condition: which conditioning state << can make the conditioned mental states, which take it as object, obey its wishes and can exert its influence to make them respect and serve it constantly. >> * http://www.pariyatti.com/catalog.cgi?sort=subselect&subject=Pali%20Text%20Societ\ y%20-%20In%20English&sid=22 if you want, i've copied out some of the Guide to CR and can send you a file. peace, connie #61797 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:39 am Subject: Re: What did Sarah say to Betty? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I guess you're on your way out of Egypt any day now. Moving is so > stressful, especially when it means going so far away from loved > ones. (Amr and the cats.) Wishing you well. Actually, I am bringing my cat with me, but I understand what you mean. Thanks for your kind words. Metta, James #61798 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Okay, give me a few days, and I'll get back to you. James: Good, I hope you enjoy the article. But if it takes more than a week I will be in Taiwan and I might not see your response. > I can't just adopt some outward stance, look like a Buddhist, or dress > like a Buddhist. I'm not able to just adopt some unfamiliar rituals > and feel like "a buddhist." It would feel all wrong and forced and > put on. James: Well, I wouldn't worry too much about how something feels at first. Did the Buddha ever teach that people should just do what "feels natural"? Buddhism is about renunciation and doing things to change your lifestyle- so that it isn't so sense addicted. If you only read about Buddhism and continue to follow the status quo, then you aren't really a Buddhist. The Buddha faced the same thing. He "knew" that renunciation was a good idea, but it just didn't feel "natural" to him. He determined that it didn't feel "natural" because he hadn't completely explored it: "So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.' [1] "Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.' "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. So, rather than just dismissing something as "foreign" or "unnatural", you should give it a try in order to see the benefit of it. Metta, James #61799 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:53 pm Subject: Good trip to Taiwan (was:Re: bhaavana jwromeijn Hallo James Till now I had not res[ponded to your more personal posts. Tried to do but could not find the good tone Have a good trip to Taiwan. And I hope you find your way. I think we 'see' each other back in this DSG-forum. What I know of Taiwan (not much) is that buddhism is mainly Mahayna. I'm curious if you like the way it is practised. With metta Joop